1947-02-06

Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister) moved:: That, on and after Monday the 10th of February and every sitting day thereafter until Monday the 24th of February, government orders may be introduced and considered notwithstanding the resolution passed on the 30th of January in relation to the precedence given to the debate on the address in reply to the speech from the throne.
He said: As hon. members will recall, this is the resolution I mentioned last week as the one which would be moved before the close of the present week.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

William Lyon Mackenzie King: I understand a question
was asked last evening as to whether the government would be prepared to have questions answered on Monday, before the debate continued much further. I may say we will fix Monday to reply to any questions which may be on the order paper at the present time.



CANADA GRAIN ACT


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. A MacKINNON (Minister of Trade and Commerce) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 4, to amend the Canada Grain Act.
He said: The purpose of this amending bill is to incorporate in the Canada Grain Act the provisions of four orders in council passed under the War Measures Act. These provide for the omission or deferment of annual weigh-overs in terminal and eastern elevators; the compulsory insurance of grain in eastern elevators; an amendment giving a subsequent oivner the right to load on the car allotted to the original owner; and to provide statutory grades for certain seeds.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. BROOKE CLAXTON (Minister of National Defence) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 5, to amend the Militia Pension Act.
He said: The purpose of this bill is to make
[Mr. Glen.J
two minor amendments to the Militia Pension Act, which will extend the provisions of the act to protect the rights of a very small number of men of the permanent force who saw service during the Avar. The first amendment proposed in section 1 of the bill applies to some fifteen naval ratings Avho accepted acting rank as petty officers during the war; it is proposed to protect their position with regard to pensions and retirement. Section 2 is intended to cover a gap in dates owing to the situation having changed since the adoption of the order in council dealing with this matter. Both amendments would protect a limited group of men Avho might not be covered otherwise.
Mr. LOCKHART:: Has consideration been given to the limited number of persons in No. 1 Canadian v/ireless group who went to the South Pacific? There has been correspondence in this matter, and they would seem to have a very special case.


Mr. CLAXTON:: I shall be glad to look into the matter.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



CUSTOMS ACT


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. J. McCANN (Minister of National Revenue) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 6, to amend the Customs Act.
He said: The purpose of this amendment to the Customs Act is to put into statutory form what has been done by order in council since February, 1943. It has to do with the extension of time from 14 to 30 days within Avhich an importer may ask for a refund because of certain conditions outlined in the amendment.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 7, to amend the Feeding Stuffs Act, 1937.
He said: Mr. Speaker, the object of this amendment is to provide authority for establishing regulations requiring feeding stuffs to be of correct composition for the purpose claimed by the vendor, and to prevent the sale of feeding stuffs of wrong composition for any specific purpose. It is to provide that if feed is sold for cattle, it must be suitable for cattle only. This would be carried out in cooperation with the feed boards established

Inquiries of the Ministry
by the provincial governments and the animal nutritionists of the dominion and provincial services and universities.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 8 to amend the Inspesction and Sale Act, 1938.
He said: Mr. Speaker, through this bill it is proposed to continue the regulations respecting the grade standards, grading and labelling of flax fibre and tow, which have been in effect during the past five years. This bill has the unanimous support of the flax fibre industry in Canada, which realizes that the grading of their products must continue if the industry is to survive. These regulations were brought in under the War Measures Act during the war, and it is intended to continue them.
Mr. SENN:: What is the number of orders in council involved in this 'bill and in the bill following?


Mr. GARDINER:: I believe only one is involved in this one. If there is more than one. it is because of the change in the particular regulation.


Mark Cecil Senn: The minister has not the number, though.


James Garfield Gardiner: Not just now.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



FERTILIZERS ACT


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 9, to amend the Fertilizers Act.
He said: This bill calls for a number of amendments to the present act. Six of the amendments have to do largely with the matter of percentages of different ingredients entering into the production of fertilizer. These amendments are offered to bring the act into accordance with present practice. Section 7, however, is somewhat different. During the war years much progress was made in confining the sale of fertilizers to those best suited to the different crop requirements and soil conditions. This was done under war emergency powers in cooperation with the fertilizer boards established by the provincial governments. Section 7(i) of the bill would permit the continuance of this control in
cooperation with the provincial fertilizer boards so that farmers will be supplied with fertilizers best suited to their needs based on experimental evidence and sound practice. Serious deterioration in the quality of fertilizer may result if this control is not continued.
Mark Cecil Senn: Will any further subsidies be paid, or does that enter into it?


James Garfield Gardiner: That does not enter into it.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE



REQUEST FOR FURTHER COPIES OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. JOHN BRACKEN (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Finance with respect to public accounts, a copy of which was tabled yesterday. The distribution office advises us that copies are not yet available for distribution. Can the minister tell us when they will be available, and also whether he will move to have the auditor general's report referred to the public accounts committee as soon as that committee is established?


Hon. DOUGLAS ABBOTT (Minister of Finance):: My hon. friend was good enough to send me notice of his intention to ask this question. I have made inquiries and am informed that the public accounts and report of the auditor general will not be available for general distribution for perhaps a week or ten days. It involves a large job of binding and printing. I am endeavouring to have a number prepared, certainly enough for the leaders within the next day or two. Replying to the second part of the question, I shall be glad to move that the public accounts be referred to the committee on public accounts as soon as it is set up.



VETERANS AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. G. DIEFENBAKER (Lake Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Veterans Affairs. I received a telegram from Mr. Greatrix, president of the veterans' vocational school at Prince Albert, in reference to the closing of the veterans prematriculation courses there. There are thirty students affected, and they are being transferred to Saskatoon but find themselves unable to secure housing at that point. Will
Inquiries of the Ministry

the minister give reconsideration to having these veterans permitted to remain in Prince Albert for the remainder of the course?
Right Hon. IAN A. MACKENZIE (Minister of Veterans Affairs): My hon. friend is aware that the other day I stated, and again yesterday in reply to a question from another hon. member that it will be necessary in many parts of Canada to close up some of the prematriculation schools functioning. That is within the control of the provincial boards of education, in cooperation with the Department of Labour. We have no control over the locus of tuition of students. It is our duty to see that they' have every facility possible. It is for us to see that they may complete the course in a proper way, and that is what we will endeavour to do. If there is a complaint in regard to accommodation, I shall look into it.


John George Diefenbaker: Is it a fact, then, that the provincial department of education has made changes, and is responsible?


Mr. MACKENZIE:: I am not aware of that. I shall look up the details, because this is the first intimation I have had of a change in Prince Albert.



FEED GRAIN


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. JOHN T. HACKETT (Stanstead): Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Agriculture. Is he aware of the grain shortage in Quebec which is threatening with extermination the herds in that province, and is anything being done to facilitate the shipment of feed grains from the western provinces?
James Garfield Gardiner: I have been aware of the fact that there has been a feed shortage in Canada for some considerable time, and I believe I so stated to the house when we were in session last. Because of the fact that there has been a feed shortage it has been difficult to maintain production of daily and meat products at as high a point as during the previous two years. The railways have found it difficult to supply cars for all the activities being carried on in Canada at the present time. This was indicated to the house only a few days ago by the Minister of Transport (Mr. Chevrier).
Every effort, however, is being made to have the greatest possible number of cars made available for the shipment of grain from Fort William to eastern parts of Canada to supply any shortages which might otherwise develop.

Persons who are handling feed grains are making representations to the effect that they will experience considerable difficulty in supplying their customers unless we get more cars for greater shipments. Everything possible is being done to get those cars.



VETERANS AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. O. C. I. MERRITT (Vancouver-Burrard):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Veterans Affairs. A telegram which I have received from Vancouver indicates that the employment of certain veterans is being terminated by the Department of Veterans Affairs, while others who have seen no service are being retained in their employment. Will the minister assure the house that strict preference in retention in employment is accorded to veterans? Will he investigate this situation in Vancouver and correct it if necessary?
Right Hon. IAN A. MACKENZIE (Minister of Veterans Affairs): My hon. friend was kind enough to notify me of his intended question. I have no direct knowledge myself that any men have been let out. I was under the impression that every single male in the employ of the Department of Veterans Affairs was a veteran, although there may be some office boys or permanent civil servants from the days of world war I who are still employed. The telegram received by my hon. friend states that further details are being sent to him by letter. When those details have arrived I shall be glad to discuss the matter with him further. Now that demobilization is practically concluded and rehabilitation is so far advanced it is inevitable that certain veterans may have to leave their employment across the country.


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: Perhaps the minister will say whether or not it is the policy of the department to give preference, in retention in employment, to ex-service men.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes, that will be the policy of the department, consistent with efficiency of administration.



BOOK OF REMEMBRANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. F. E. LENNARD (Wentworth):: I should like to ask the Minister of National Defence if there is to be a book of remembrance created for those who fell in world war II?

Inquiries of the Ministry


Brooke Claxton: I shall be glad to look into the question and give my hon. friend an answer.



CAMPAIGN TO SHARE WITH THOSE IN NEED IN OTHER COUNTRIES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. STANLEY KNOWLES (Winnipeg North Centre):: I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister, on behalf of the local council of women and other women's organizations in Winnipeg and other parts of Canada. Is the government taking any steps to make more effective the "Share with the hungry" campaign which was launched last fall, so that the people of Canada may continue to share their food with those in dire need in other parts of the world?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The Minister of Agriculture was chairman of that campaign, and perhaps he had better answer the question.


James Garfield Gardiner: I think in March of last year a committee was set up for the purpose of dealing with the requests that were being made for food for countries in Europe. That committee decided that it was best to say to the people of Canada that so long as the regulations continued which were then in existence, under which we actually had to take food in order to send it to the different countries in Europe, it was not advisable to suggest to organizations that they take food away from our supplies in order to have it shipped to Europe by individuals. In other words we thought there would be considerable loss if an attempt were made to handle it in that way.
At that time we did suggest that women's organizations which desired to turn in coupons for products that were being rationed in Canada could do so and they would be utilized to reduce further the consumption of meat and other supplies of the kind in Canada, and these would be sent forward to Europe in greater quantity. I take it that this is the matter on which my hon. friend desires information. He wishes to know whether these coupons are still being accepted. The coupons are still being accepted. The only change that has been made by the government is to stop the considerable publicity campaign which was being conducted up to the beginning or the end of August last year. No change has been made in the policy. If coupons are turned in they will be utilized for the purpose of sending more food forward.


Stanley Howard Knowles: In view of the need that is so apparent, has consideration been given to renewing the publicity?


James Garfield Gardiner: I think it is very well understood right across Canada, and if women's organizations want to put on a special appeal I am quite sure it will be reacted to.


Stanley Howard Knowles: They feel that they would like some lead or support from the government.


James Garfield Gardiner: I think this will give them sufficient lead.



POTATOES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. H. HATFIELD (Victoria-Carleton):: Has the Minister of Agriculture any further information to give the house in regard to the Great Britain potato order?


James Garfield Gardiner: I have no further information
to give on this matter. I would like to say that I hope there will not be too much discussion outside without full information as to what has been done. The discussions that have taken place rvith Great Britain are based upon the difficulties that arise because of disease in connection with the product. I think it would be most unfortunate if anything were to be said by those who are presumed to know what the situation is that might in any way make it difficult to have the contract finally signed. I think any discussions that are going to take place with regard to it would bq better confined to the essential officials. Our efforts should be directed to talking to them and getting full information as to what can be done rather than having a public discussion about it.



THE FRANCHISE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. D. FULTON (Kamloops):: Will the Secretary of State for External Affairs advise whether the government has received any representations from the All-India Congress -with regard to granting the franchise to former Indian subjects who are resident in Canada and, if so, whether any answer has been given?
Right Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Secretary of State for External Affairs):	In December
last an official communication was received from the government of India drawing atten-
Inquiries of the Ministry

tion to the discrimination which existed against Indians in British Columbia and urging upon the Canadian government-
. . . the desirability of persuading the British Columbia government to avail itself of the present opportunity and take steps to confer franchise on the small Indian community in that province and thus rectify the present anomalous position which is a source of humiliation to Indians.
That communication was passed on to the government of British Columbia. While I have no official information about it, I read recently in the newspapers that a committee was considering the matter. I do not know how well the newspaper reporter was informed, but I got the impression that it was receiving favourable consideration.



PEACE TREATIES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. GORDON GRAYDON (Peel):: I should like some information from the Secretary of State for External Affairs as to the possible submissions by Canada in connection with the Austrian peace settlement. I notice in the letter which appears in Hansard over the signature of the Secretary General of the Council of Foreign Ministers, dated December 31, 1946, that the Canadian government is invited to make representations and submissions with respect to two problems, that of the German peace settlement and the peace settlement with Austria. I should like to ask the minister whether or not the passing reference to Austria in the German peace submissions sent by Canada on January 30 is to constitute all of Canada's submissions, or whether the government is awaiting a settlement of the procedural problems before further submissions are made in connection with the Austrian situation.
Right Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Secretary of State for External Affairs):	As the hon.
member no doubt noticed in Hansard, the invitation which was received on January 4 referred to both peace settlements, that of Germany and that of Austria. If the hon. member read through that report he will have seen that the answer written by the High Commissioner for Canada on January 14 stated that the submissions made in connection with the procedural matters were intended to apply to the Austrian as well as to the German situation. There has been nothing further submitted to the deputies of the foreign ministers in connection with the Austrian situation, and the question whether anything further will be submitted is still under considers-

tion. The department felt, that Canada was more particularly concerned with the German settlement. It seemed to us that that would be pivotal in the settlement of European policy, and the matter of deciding whether or not until there have been some further developments in that situation Canada will make special representations concerning the Austrian settlement is still under consideration.


Gordon Graydon: May I ask whether the Austrian and German problems are being dealt with concurrently by the special deputies, or is one being dealt with before the other?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I understand that they are being dealt with concurrently at least to this extent, that there are meetings of the special deputies on certain days and at certain hours which deal with the German settlement, and meetings sometimes on the same days at different hours dealing with the Austrian situation.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:	[DOT]
Hon. ALPHONSE FOURNIER (Minister of Public Works):: Mr. Speaker, on Monday the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) put the following question to the Minister of Public Works:
Is the minister in a position to make a statement concerning increases in wages, holidays with pay, and sick leave for women cleaners in public buildings? Will these increases apply to women so employed in federal public buildings in all parts of Canada?
I may state that many members have put the same query to the minister, especially the two members for Ottawa, but I have refrained from giving any answer until definite approval had been given. Here is the statement I am now ready to make.
The treasury board has approved a recommendation of the Minister of Public Works for provision of holiday and sick leave with pay to charwomen employed in the public service, both in Ottawa and at all other points in the dominion, with effect from April 1, 1947. The leave approved is as follows: Holiday leave, six days per year; sick leave, six days per year. It is estimated that this provision will apply to 1,250 charwomen on the staff at Ottawa, and to approximately 250 employed outside Ottawa.
Regulations for the application of this provision parallel to those governing the granting of holiday and sick leave to full-time employees of the public service, with the necessary changes, will be prepared by officers of the Department of Public Works jointly with members of the treasury board staff.

The Address-Mr. Wright
As to wages, these are determined by the Department of Labour.


Stanley Howard Knowles: May I ask the minister if the six days' sick leave per year is separate from the six days' holiday leave per year? Previously in Winnipeg one exhausted the other.


Alphonse Fournier: They are two different leaves. There is sick leave of six days per year and holiday leave of six days per year.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Is the matter of wages still under consideration?


Mr. SPEAKER:: Order.



REINSTATEMENT OF CERTAIN EMPLOYEES BY STEEL COMPANY OF CANADA

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. HUMPHREY MITCHELL (Minister of Labour):: The hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Maclnnis) asked yesterday about the reinstatement of certain former employees of the Hamilton Works of the Steel Company of Canada, and specifically regarding the acceptance or rejection of the recommendation of the special commissioner, Judge Ian Mac-donell. The special commissioner recommended the reinstatement of all the fifteen men, but the company agreed to take back all except four. In respect to these four the company takes the position that they were guilty of criminal offences and no longer would be acceptable to the company as employees. Consultations have been going on between my department and Mr. Kilbourn, the steel controller, who arranged the strike settlement terms, and I am hopeful that we shall bridge the gap with respect to the matter raised by my hon. friend.


Mr. MacINNIS:: May I ask whether the settlement of this point is holding up the signing of the agreement?


Humphrey Mitchell: That is quite correct.



INQUIRY AS TO PRICE INCREASE OR ACREAGE BONUS TO ENCOURAGE PRODUCTION

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. ROBERT FAIR (Battle River):: May I ask the Minister of Agriculture whether any decision has been arrived at with respect to increasing the price of barley or granting an acreage bonus on barley to help in the greater production of hogs in Canada?


James Garfield Gardiner: The matter is still under consideration.



EXCESS PROFITS TAX


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Frank Exton Lennard: I would like to ask the Minister of National Revenue a question. The government recently increased the salaries of some senior civil servants by fifty per cent. Will private business concerns be allowed to do the same without excess profits tax penalties?


James Horace King: Order. I would suggest that the hon. member put his question on the order paper.



TRANSFERS OF DUTIES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Right Hon.  W. L MACKENZIE KING@Prime Minister: Mr Speaker, yesterday the hon. member for Carleton (Mr. Boucher) asked a question concerning the permanent civil servants who were formerly members of the procurement branch of the Department of National Defence, and who, under the terms of P.C. 314, will be transferred to the Department of Trade and Commerce and eventually to the Canadian Commercial Corporation. There are only six such persons on the staff at the present time.
The Canadian Commercial Corporation Act provides that the civil servants transferred to the corporation will retain all rights and privileges. In the circumstances, therefore, I am pleased to advise my hon. friend that the interests of these employees in the superannuation fund and other privileges which they enjoyed under the Civil Service Act, are fully protected.



GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Wednesday, February 5, consideration of the motion of Mr. J. W. MacNaught for an address to His Excellency the Governor General in reply to his speech at the opening of the session, and the amendment thereto of Mr. Bracken, and the amendment to the amendment of Mr. Coldwell.
Mr. P. E. WRIGHT (Melfort):: Mr. Speaker, I am sure that all members of the house appreciate the prominent position which His Majesty's advisers have seen fit to give in the speech from the throne to Canada's position in world affairs and to world affairs
The Address-Mr. Wright

generally. The peace of the world rests upon each nation understanding the others' problems, and the only way in which we can accomplish this is through intelligent discussion.
We are also pleased that the government has seen fit to establish a permanent ministry of external affairs, and we hope that through the appointment of such a minister there will be more discussion of external affairs as time goes on.
We were surprised that in the speech from the throne the proposed domestic legislation was dealt with in such an abrupt and summary manner. In approximately five or six short sentences the whole legislative programme for this session of parliament was disposed of.
We were also surprised at the apparent complacency shown by the government in the speech from the throne in regard to present conditions in Canada. I quote from the speech:
Industry has been converted almost entirely from war-time purposes to peace-time production. Over a million persons have been transferred from the armed forces and war industry to regular civilian occupations. Employment is higher than it has ever been. It is over thirty per cent higher than it was in 1939. During 1946 Canada's external commerce reached heights unprecedented in peace time. The national income is at its highest peace-time level. The outlook for trade and employment for 1947 is most favourable.
And, a little further on:
. . Controls are being removed in an orderly manner.
Apparently everything is quite satisfactory in Canada. But as a private member fresh from my constituency, and having talked with other private members fresh from their constituencies, let me say that there are still a great many problems still not solved in Canada, and this attitude of complacency on the part of the government is not going to solve them. Let me review a few of our present problems.
Take housing. Probably no member of this house will say that the problems relating to housing in Canada have been solved.
Take rising prices and the increasing cost of living. Surely no one who has talked with the housewives of Canada would say that he is satisfied with the removal of controls on the costs of living, rising as they are today. As a matter of fact our worthy friends to my right, if they had had their way last year, would have got rid of these controls long ago, with resulting chaos throughout the country. However, there are other things. There is the matter of labour relations. Surely no one will say that we have no labour relations problem in Canada. Then there is the problem of

veterans' reestablishment. I am sure the minister himself would not say that we have solved all our problems in that regard. Certainly in agriculture there are problems to be solved. There is the problem of production. Greater production of agricultural products is an important problem today and one which needs more consideration.
We of this group are convinced that the only way in which we can obtain and maintain a higher standard of living in Canada is by higher production and more equitable distribution. Until we take the necessary steps to obtain that higher production and more equitable distribution wo cannot hope to raise our living standards. Our whole policy' is designed for that purpose.
Today we see evidence of the failure of free enterprise to do these things. Let me quote to you, sir, from an editorial in the Winnipeg Tribune:
With $3,477 million tied up in savings deposits Canadian bankers are able to get only $1,438 million out at work in the form of current loans.
Apparently our free enterprise system has lost its enterprise. It has come to the point where it is dependent more and more upon government, upon protection, upon other forms of subsidy, to make it not free but very much under control.
We believe that through public ownership of certain sections of production we can get higher production. Today even the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) believes in that, if the statement w'hich he made while he was at the west coast recently W'as as it was reported. He is reported to have said that unless free enterprise is prepared to do the necessary things in this country, public enterprise will have to take over.


James Garfield Gardiner: I said that the people might have to take over.


Mr. COLDWELL:: That means revolution.


Angus MacInnis: Evidently the people are not doing it now.


James Garfield Gardiner: Just to make it clear to my hon. friend, the people are doing it now in Saskatchewan and making a profit of $7,000,000 in one year on handling wheat which they distribute back to their patrons.


Percy Ellis Wright: Apparently the Minister of Agriculture has been following what has been taking place in Saskatchewan, and he is beginning to realize that the C.C.F. programme really works.


James Garfield Gardiner: Oh, no, the Liberal programme on cooperation.

The Address-Mr. Wright


Percy Ellis Wright: I would advise him to have a conference with the hon. member for Rosthern (Mr. Tucker) before he sends him back to that province.


James Garfield Gardiner: He will bake care of you out there.


An hon. MEMBER:: We will take care of him.
Mr. \\ RIGHT: I should like to quote another instance of the failure of private enterprise to meet the needs of the people. In 1944 we passed the Xational Housing Act. Under that act we had hoped that we would get better housing conditions in Canada. I want to say just a word with regard to rural housing. There has been a great deal of discussion in the house about urban housing, but anyone who has travelled through rural Canada cannot fail to realize that there is a need for housing in the rural sections of the country, not only new houses but replacements and reconditioning of many of the present houses. Every day we see in the press accounts of fires which wipe out whole families because of inadequate heating provisions in rural homes. Under section 15 of the National Housing Act, 1944, we provided that the government may:
. . . enter into a contract with a manufacturer of plumbing or heating equipment or other component parts of houses for the experimental production of the said equipment or component parts in accordance with standardized designs which, in the opinion of the minister, may be manufactured or produced at low cost.
Subsection 2 provided that the government may:
. . . enter into a contract with a manufacturer referred to' in subsection 1 of this section, to underwrite or guarantee the sale at such price as may be agreed upon and specified upon in the contract . . .
Section 16 provides for an appropriation of $5,000,000 for that purpose. Under that act we were hopeful that there would be set up in the dominion some private enterprise which would do the investigational work necessary' to provide a suitable heating and plumbing unit for rural homes. So far, however, as I have been able to find out, that has not taken place. The government might very well have used some of the wartime factories to do this work itself and provide the necessary' plumbing and heating facilities for rural homes.
I do not wish to deal further with these particular subjects but I do want to say something about agricultural production in Canada. In speaking o'ver the radio to the Canadian Federation of Agriculture in Winnipeg last week Sir John Boyd Orr said that
the principle which should be adopted throughout the world with regard to agricultural production was production for consumption and distribution according to need. I believe we all agree that that should be the basic principle for agricultural production. He went on to say that today in Great Britain their diet averages approximately 2700 calories a day; that in Europe and in a great part of the far east and middle east the consumption is from 1500 to 2000 calories a day. Here in Canada we enjoy a diet which contains from 3200 to 3500 calories a day. He said that the food and agriculture experts had informed him it would require all-out world agricultural production until at least 1970 to give an adequate diet to all the peoples of the world. Surely in the face of statements such as this we should have an agricultural policy in Canada which aims at that all-out production. It should be a balanced production, a production not only which would meet our own needs but from which we could supply some of the needs of the world as well.
I believe that the food and agriculture organization is one of the most important departments of the united nations organization. Through it there can be built up better relationships with other countries of the world. In his address Sir John Boyd Orr said that unless we in the food and agriculture organization can come to some agreement on such a basic need as food, there is very little hope that we can come to an agreement on the more controversial things which confront the united nations organization. Canada's contribution to that should be all-out production.
What has taken place in Canada with respect to production during the last year? I should like to quote from the current review of agricultural conditions in Canada for October, 1946, which is a government publication. This is what it says with respect to beef:
The closing of the third quarter of 1946 showed inspected slaughterings of cattle to be 1,107,570 head, which represents a decrease of 5 per cent as compared to the corresponding: period in 1945,
Slaughterings in eastern Canada were 13-5 per cent less, and in the west one per cent less. When it comes to hogs, it states that the slaughterings of hogs during the first nine months of 1946 were 3,053,848, which is a reduction of 28 per cent as compared with the same period in 1945. In western Canada the weekly kill from June to the end of August remained approximately 39 per cent below the 1945 level. September slaughterings averaged 61 per cent below the 1945 level. In dairy products, total production of milk continues



Vhe Address-Mr. Wright ________
to show a decline, and present trends indicate that production in 1946 will be approximately 3 per cent, or 500,000,000 pounds less than last year. In butter, it is stated that creamery butter production to the end of September totalled 224-2 million pounds or 20-6 million pounds less than during the same period in 1945. September production declined in all provinces, ranging from a decrease of 3-3 per cent in Manitoba to 55-3 per cent in Alberta. In Cheddar cheese, to the end of September 1946 the total was 120-2 millions, the lowest since 1941, and 23-3 per cent lower than last year's production.
This shows a tremendous drop in the production of those agricultural commodities over which we have some direct control.
Last year we had a large production of grain in Canada. This was true of apples and potatoes also, but it was owing to weather conditions and not to the policies of the government. The policies of the government have directly affected production in the other lines indicated, and until those policies are changed so as to give some feeling of stability to the people engaged in agriculture, I am afraid we shall not get the necessary production.
How can this be done? Anyone can find fault; it is another problem to remedy these conditions. In the first place I believe we should have set up in Canada a commission to ascertain the proper relationship between the prices of agricultural products and wages and the cost of the things which the farmer and the labourer have to buy. Such a commission should be able to estimate what would be a fair division of the national income as between labour, agriculture and industry, and until the government has some such information I cannot see how we can possibly arrive at fair and equitable prices in this country. This is the first step to be taken if we are to prevent the feeling of strife that is growing in this country. On the one hand we find labour strikes and on the other agricultural strikes, each group trying to grab, under the capitalist economy, the largest share it can get of the national income. Until we have some real information as to what would be a fair division we have very little chance of settling these disputes intelligently.
In the second place, I believe the government should implement the Agricultural Prices Support Act of 1944 and should state what the floor prices are to be under the basic agricultural products. Until that is done there is bound to be a feeling of instability, the feeling, "Well, I don't know whether I should increase my dairy herd or get rid of these cows now while the price is good." You observe that

feeling right across the dominion. Dairy herds are being dispersed, hog production is decreasing, simply because the agricultural industry is not sure of the situation. The farmers do not know what will be done under the Agricultural Prices Support Act. In 1944 when the act was brought into force prior to the last election, certain definite statements were made with regard to the principles that would be used in determining floor prices under agricultural products. The minister himself said that there were basic factors to be taken into consideration.
First, there was the fact that agriculture had gone through ten years of depression in the thirties and there had accumulated a large backlog of requirements for machinery, better buildings and better homes. A large mortgage indebtedness had been built up against the agricultural industry of Canada.
Second, the minister said that there would be taken into account the fact that for the first two years of this war the agricultural industry was not receiving a fair price for agricultural products. The ceiling prices had been set in the fall of 1941 when prices were low and the final adjustment in these prices did not take place for almost two years thereafter.
Third, we were told that due consideration would be given the cost of production. I am sure that if the board set up under the Agricultural Prices Support Act decided to set prices after taking these factors into consideration there would be greater production in this country, but I cannot see that they have considered these things at all in setting the price they did on potatoes in the maritime provinces last fall.
Moving the address in reply to the speech from the throne, the member for Prince (Mr. MacNaught) stated that the people of Prince Edward Island were pleased that the government had taken the action it did last fall. I was in Prince Edward Island at that time and, if I may use a slang expression, "that wasn't the way I heer'd it." The farmers to whom I talked were not satisfied. They thought that if the government were going to put a floor price under potatoes, it should be done immediately. Hundreds of farmers there had to sell their crop last fall. They did not have storage facilities; they were under financial obligations which they had to meet, and speculators were buying their potatoes at as low as 60 cents a bag, taking them over to the mainland and storing them there until such time as the government came into the market to buy potatoes this spring. That is not the kind

of support which tends to give stability to agriculture or confidence to the people engaged in that industry.
I wish to compliment the member for Resti-gouche-Madawaska (Mr. Michaud) on, the speech he made the other night with regard to the solution of the potato problem in the maritimes. It wTas a well thought out speech. His solution was a reasonable one, and one which the government might well implement. It is funny, but no one wants planning until he gets into a pinch. Immediately he gets into difficulties he begins to realize that the only intelligent answer to his problem is planning. That is exactly what the member for Resti-gouche-Madawaska suggested the other night. As a matter of fact he might well have been in this group and made such a speech as he did, because that is the position we have taken for years-that the sooner we get rid of the speculative element in agricultural production the sooner we shall get more production as well as better quality.
I wish now to deal with the question of the board set up under the Agricultural Prices Support Act. Recently the government has appointed two new members to that board. I believe they are representatives from the agricultural industry. It has always been my contention that that board should consist entirely of members drawn from agriculture and from the people who consume agricultural products. The technical men should be advisers to the board, not on the board itself. That is the reverse of the position taken until recently by the government, but I think it is the only way we can get a board which will have the confidence of the people engaged in agriculture, a board on which they have their own representatives, suggested and appointed by their own organizations. On that board also should be representatives of consumers in this country, because in establishing agricultural prices we must take the consumers into consideration as well as the producers.
Having said that I wish to go on and deal for a time with the prices of grain in Canada. I think there has been general approval of long term contracts with regard to food. I have been surprised at the attitude taken by the hon. member for Neepawa (Mr. Bracken), leader of the opposition, with regard to these long-term contracts. It seems to me he is lining up with the reactionary elements in western Canada, the grain exchange and the line elevator companies, instead of behind the farmers and farm organizations out there. For years we have been asking for stabilized prices. You cannot get stabilized prices without long term contracts. You cannot get stabilized contracts on the Winnipeg grain 83166-11J
The Address-Mr. Wright
exchange; make no mistake about that. What has taken place in connection with rye on that exchange over the last two years is ample evidence of that. All intelligent thinking in the world today agrees that we should get rid of speculation. I am going to quote again the statement quoted by the leader of this group, the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) which was made by Mr. LaGuardia at the recent meeting of the united nations organization in New York. Mr. LaGuardia said:
xou cannot nave uuui Biauuuy m prices and security for the farmer as well as fluctuation m prices. It is no use saying that we are not going to interfere with free exchange and free sales. If you want what is needed," Mr LaGuardia warned, "you will interfere, and you will put every gambling grain exchange out of business in Chicago, Winnipeg, in Liverpool or wherever it exists."
I am sure that is the opinion of the farm organizations in western Canada and of the great majority of farmers in the west. They want some form of stability, and that can be brought about only when we have marketing boards and long-term agreements. It is the only way we shall get increased production. I am convinced that the government should make the wheat board into a grain board which would handle all grain in western Canada-wheat, coarse grains, rye, flax and all other grains. In that way we would close the Winnipeg grain exchange permanently and by means of long term contracts, by direct sales to producer organizations and to the trade in eastern Canada and throughout the world, we would handle our products without having them the subject of speculation.
To do this it would be necessary also to have some world organization for the handling of surplus food products. I am convinced that the food and agriculture organization is the one that should be used. I believe that organization should be given greater powers than it has at the present time; that it should have executive powers to achieve the objectives for which it has been set up. If it had such powers, and if there were cooperation on the part of the various nations belonging to the organization, the problem of surpluses would disappear. The statement of Sir John Boyd Orr on food requirements for the next thirty years is ample evidence of that,
The criticism in western Canada has not been of long-term contracts. The criticism has been of the government's domestic grain policy. That is where the greatest criticism has come in. There has been criticism, and I believe just criticism, of the initial payment of $1.35 per bushel. I believe that initial payment should be $1.55.
The Address-Mr. Wright


James Garfield Gardiner: That is not what the
farm organizations have said.


Percy Ellis Wright: Some of the farm organizations are saying so.


James Garfield Gardiner: None of them said
that at the time.


Percy Ellis Wright: Well, I am saying now
this should be the initial payment. There would be very little danger of the government losing any money, because the wheat agreement with Great Britain calls for the payment of $1.55 a bushel this year and next year, and a large share of the crop is being sold on the world market at a higher price. Then for the last two years of the contract provision is made that in determining prices for those years consideration will be given to the difference between $1.55 a bushel and the world price during 1946-47. When that factor is taken into consideration I do not think the government would have to stand any loss if it paid $1.55 a bushel as the initial payment, plus a participation certificate. Then I believe the value of the participation certificate should not be based on what the government may sell the grain for but on a parity price, and that the certificate should be paid each year and not held by the government until the end of the contract period. If it were based on a cost price or parity price-


James Garfield Gardiner: That is the grain
exchange idea, and you are reverting to it.


Percy Ellis Wright: I am not reverting to any grain exchange idea at all. I am stating that we should have parity prices for agricultural products. What do we mean by parity prices? We mean a price which creates a fair relationship between the cost of the things the farmer has to buy and what he receives for the things he has to sell. That is what we believe the price should be for grain products; and that is not a grain exchange idea.


James Garfield Gardiner: If I may ask a question, how could you have stabilized prices for wheat or any other commodity if you paid out the full return in a year when you have high returns, and have no returns at all to pay out in a year when you have low returns? How could you have stable returns?


Percy Ellis Wright: If you have a five-year
agreement on grain you do not have that situation.


James Garfield Gardiner: You say the participation payments should be made each year?


Percy Ellis Wright: Absolutely, on a parity
basis.


James Garfield Gardiner: Then it is not stable.
You have high returns one year and low another.


Percy Ellis Wright: Parity would not change
very much from year to year. It would fluctuate as costs varied, but under any decently planned economy in this country we would not have the fluctuations we get under capitalism. The dollar a man saves when he is earning money would not become worth only 50 cents when he reaches the point where he wants to spend it.


James Garfield Gardiner: You sell most of the
wheat outside this country.


Percy Ellis Wright: 1 have stated that this
policy can only be carried out by agreement with other nations; and until a policy of that kind is adopted we can never hope to have stability in the production of grain in this country.
In regard to the prices of coarse grains, the minister has stated repeatedly that we could not get increased production of hogs or increased dairy production until we had more feed, that this was the basic problem. I can assure him that as long as the present differential continues as between the prices of coarse grains and the price of wheat, he is not going to get coarse grains. Anyone who is a practical farmer knows that any time the value of barley goes below two-thirds of the value of wheat, or any time the price of oats goes below one-half the price of wheat,, the inclination is to produce wheat. That is just about the rule the average farmer uses in determining which grain he will produce. If we use that rule today, then surely the prices of coarse grains are entirely out of line. The suggestion has been made of paying a five dollar per acre bonus on barley. I do not believe that would solve the problem. As was stated by the hon. member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Miller), so far as we in the barley producing areas of western Canada are concerned, that is not an incentive. The average production in the hon. member's area, and right through the barley growing area, is 40 to 45 bushels per acre, when it is sown on good land. That, at 15 cents a bushel, means at least $6 an acre. If you take off the $6 and put on a $5 bonus, certainly no one will grow barley. They will simply put in more wheat, and you will have more barley sown in areas where it should not be produced, and where it cannot be grown economically.
I agree that it probably will give some incentive to the production of pork. But if we agree with the statement of the minister, made so often in the house, that we cannot have

The Address-Mr. Wright
pork production unless we have barley production, then I do not think it will accomplish what is intended.
To my mind the fairest way is to give a fair price for coarse grains, in relation to wheat.


Mr. ROSS (Souris):: Make it profitable.


Percy Ellis Wright: In conclusion I should like to review some of the things I have said. If we are to have stability in the production and distribution of agricultural products, then we must take certain definite steps to accomplish that end. I would suggest the following:
1.	We should have international agreements through the food and agriculture organization of the United Nations to take care of surpluses which may occur in our major agricultural products. We should accept the principle laid down by Sir John Boyd Orr of production for consumption and distribution according to need, and F.A.O. should be given the necessary executive powers to carry out these objectives.
2.	Long-term contracts on major food products should be negotiated in time to give stability and knowledge of forward pricesi for major agricultural products. We cannot afford to return to the old speculative methods of disposing of our food.
3.	We should set up a commission to study the whole question of relationship between wages, prices of agricultural products and the prices of commodities which have to be bought by both farmers and labour. In other words we should have a proper division of our national income between labour, agriculture, and industry. This should be obtained by intelligent planning rather than by the method of strikes and pressure groups.
4.	There should be an immediate removal of the regulations and restrictions which are placing on farmers an unfair share of the burden of maintaining the price ceilings policy of the government. There is no justification for wheat being sold by the wheat board to millers at $1.35. The price should be the price being paid for Canadian wheat by the British government, plus the value of participation certificates. Any subsidies which the dominion government believes necessary for maintaining price ceilings should be paid by the Canadian people as a whole, and not the farmers alone.
5.	The domestic policy for both wheat and coarse grains should be revised. An initial payment of $1.55 per bushel for wheat should be paid, plus participation certificates. The value of participation certificates should be determined by making it the difference between the initial payment and parity prices, or the cost of production. These participating certificates should be paid yearly instead of at
the end of the five-year period. The price of coarse grains should bear a fair relation to the price of wheat, that is, barley at from $1 to $1.05, and oats approximately 75 cents a bushel.
6.	We should have a Dominion natural products marketing act to encourage setting up commodity marketing boards to regulate, grade and market in an orderly manner the major agricultural products. The demands of the potato growers in New Brunswick at the present time for a marketing board to market their product is evidence of the need.
7.	We should have a dominion board of live stock commissioners to assist in the orderly marketing, inspection and processing of live stock and live-stock products.
8.	We should have a dominion cooperative act, (1) to indicate clearly the basic difference between cooperative and corporations; and
(2)	to remove the existing tax on cooperatives placed there last session by the government.
I am convinced that if these general principles were followed, agricultural production in Canada would be increased; we would come much closer to meeting our contracts with Great Britain, and at the same time we would raise the nutrition standards of our own people.


Mr. BONA ARSENAULT (Bonaventure) (Translation):: I am pleased to extend my
sincere congratulations to the mover of the address in reply and to the hon. member who seconded the motion.
Being of Acadian stock, I deeply appreciated the kind words spoken in French by the mover, the hon. member for Prince (Mr. MacNaught), for the benefit of the Acadians in Prince Edward Island. His French-speaking constituents will doubtless be grateful to him for this message of resounding sincerity, spoken in their mother tongue on so impressive an occasion.
As for the seconder of the motion, the hon. member for Richelieu-Vercheres (Mr. Cournoyer), the least that can be said of him is that he is a most valuable addition to the Liberal party and particularly to the whole group of members who sit in this coveted section of the house, and also, to the Canadian parliament.
We are glad he has made good and we cordially wish the hon. member for Richelieu-Vercheres a long and fruitful career.
Mr. Speaker, after the first world war, little was done by governments to ensure an orderly transition from a wartime to a peacetime economy. Thus it was that we witnessed unemployment, hardship, despair and the mass exodus of our rural population into already overcrowded cities.
The Address-Mr. Arsenault

Gaspesia, and particularly the constituency of Bonaventure, which I represent, were harder hit by those conditions than other sections of the country, because of the very fact that this vast area was least prepared to face this economic upheaval.
Profiting by past experience, the present government is acting wisely in taking the necessary steps to prevent a recurrence of similar conditions in this new post-war period.
Aware as I am that the present federal administration is so favourably disposed towards the constituency of Bonaventure, I felt this was a good time to point out just how this participation in the settlement of our many problems might best ensure the economic stability of my home constituency whose highest interests are so closely bound up with those of the whole Gaspe area. So that hon. members will know where the constituency of Bonaventure is located, I shall point out to them that it comprises the southern part of the Gaspe peninsula, which peninsula includes three federal constituencies: Matapedia-Matane, Gaspe and Bonaventure.
The total area of the Gaspe peninsula is 10,500 square miles, the equivalent of Belgium, a country with a population of 8,000,000 people, or four times the area of Prince Edward Island, a province in itself.
Were it peopled as densely as Switzerland or Scotland, the district could reasonably support over one million inhabitants. There is nothing irrational in this assumption, since that region is not so hilly and, as a rule, richer than either Switzerland or Scotland, without mentioning its fisheries, an inexhaustible source of wealth.
Besides, Mr. Speaker, its forests, covering the whole district, contain enormous quantities of first-class timber. Indeed, a few years ago, the federal statistics valued the forest capital of the Gaspe peninsula at 72 million cords of pulpwood.
Even were the figure too optimistic, a yield of half that volume, on a basis of 2 per cent annually for a period of 50 years, would represent a crop of 500,000 cords of wood or
250,000,000 feet.
As for mineral resources, it has been and still is the belief that the Gaspe peninsula will eventually become an important mining district. This large territory, from the geological point of view, and according to the map prepared by Dr. R. W. Ells and published by the Canadian Geological Service, in 1884, is, for the greater part, covered by the Devonian formations. The next largest overcrop is the Silurian, which extends to a large area. The Cambrian formation is most evident along the North coast, from Lake Matapedia to the Bay

of Gaspe, while the pre-Cambrian is mostly developed on the southern part of the peninsula.
Petroleum deposits have been located in Gaspe, and Bonaventure is known to have copper, tin, lead, zinc, asbestos and other mineral beds, capable of economic development, as soon as this large expanse of territory can be surveyed and explored with greater ease. In other words, as soon as the natural wealth hidden in the interior of this vast territory becomes accessible to our people, through the roads that will have to be built in order to open up this district for the best interest not only of the Gaspe region, but of the whole of Quebec and Canada. What are the living conditions of the population in an area as large as Belgium, Holland or Switzerland, and so richly endowed with various natural resources? Because the living conditions of a people, and its expansion are a true indication of the economic and social health of a country, since economic life itself has no other purpose than the livelihood and progress of the people.
According to the 1941 census the county of Bonaventure had a population of about 40,000, while the three counties which form the Gaspe peninsula had 140,878 people.
Since 1871, none of those three counties has retained its natural increase in population. In 1937, the Department of Commerce investigators estimated that the population of the county of Bonaventure should have been twice as large as the figure the}' had found. Instead of twenty per thousand which, on account of the high birth rate in our areas, is a reasonable calculation basis, the rate of population increase in the county of Bonaventure which I represent in this house, did not reach three per thousand during a given period and at no time did it reach the maximum rate.
Over a period of sixty years, the population of the county of Bonaventure has merely doubled, an increase which, in an area where the birth rate is high, is obviously of no great importance.
It is certainly no overstatement to claim that if, for the last 60 years, the Gaspe peninsula had been able to keep its people at -home, in other words, had our governments been in the past farsighted enough to make its natural resources more accessible to its population so as to check the continuous trek of its young men and women toward most of the cities of the North-American continent, the peninsula would -have had in 1941 a population not merely of 140,000, but of 300,000 and perhaps more.
We must therefore conclude that the number of Gaspe-born people who live outside the

The Address-Mr. Arsenault
peninsula exceeds the present population of that area. That is an absurd anomaly which should be rectified.
In fact, for more than sixty years the Gaspe peninsula has been an area of emigration. The trend of the movement may not be the same at all times, but we find that it has been sustained. A glance at a map enables any one to note the distribution of population along a narrow coast, which practically precludes expansion, the people who form the annual surplus thus being forced to move out.
One of our outstanding Canadian economists and sociologists, Mr. Esdras Minville, who himself comes from the Gaspe peninsula, has this to say:
When an area thus loses its population, and witnesses demographic movements as persistent and even disorderly as those which we have observed in the Gaspe peninsula, the cause has to be sought in one or the other of the following facts; either that area is filled to capacity, as is the case with some areas of central Europe, or the economic organization is not adapted to the needs of the people.
And Mr. Minville states in conclusion:
In the ease of a still young region like the Gaspe peninsula, it is obvious that the second assumption applies. An area of 10.500 square miles which does not yet include 150,000 people cannot be said to be filled to capacity.
There has been a steady flow of emigration from Bonaventure and Gaspe, because the people there were prevented by economic conditions from achieving a decent standard of living and from giving their children any hopes for the future strong enough to interest and to hold them.
Why should a country so richly endowed with natural resources as the Gaspe peninsula be so utterly powerless in the economic field? There may be many causes for this. I can point out two equally important causes which the federal government is in a position easily to correct:	a lack of coordination in the
development of those resources, coupled with a corresponding lack of adequate transportation facilities.
All basic industries in Gaspe are seasonal. The fishing season only lasts five or six months a year. The same is true of agriculture. In the present economic state of the world, an industry must be very profitable to provide in five or six months a standard of living comparable to that of people who work twelve months a year for their keep. Therefore, there must be some other occupation to supplement fisheries and agriculture in sections such as ours, which are far from the country's great markets.
Lumbering and eventually mining seem to provide two main supplementary occupations.
The whole of the area is covered with forests and our mines have not j'et been adequately developed. Unfortunately, the forests and mines, located in the central section of the Gaspe peninsula are undeveloped and beyond the reach of the people. Frequently, being unable to find locally the employment which the lumber industry should normally be in a position to offer them, farmers or fishermen of Bonaventure county or other sections of Gaspe are compelled to leave in order to seek employment in the Saguenay district, in the St. Maurice valley, in Lake St. John, in Montreal, in Ontario, in the United States or elsewhere. It is the starting point of migrations to other lands.
On the other hand, water-ways are one of the chief means of transportation of the peninsula, and navigation takes place eight months of the year. Insofar as Bonaventure county is concerned, most of the harbours and fishing coves are in a deplorable condition. From year to year, barge shelters have become choked with sand. Deep water wharves are practically inexistent, while there are few places where the fishermen from Bonaventure can navigate safely both at low and high tides. As a result they have to cope with a valuable loss of time, serious obstacles to fishing, the loss of barges during storms and an inexcusable and intolerable loss of income which affects those fine people who have the fortitude and the courage to engage in such a difficult occupation.
Furthermore, there is no means of reaching the central section of the peninsula which would enable the inhabitants to tap its chief natural resources, the forests, promote mining and favour the establishment of several new parishes.
In short, through lack of active interest on the part of the governments in the past, the Gaspe peninsula has become to a certain extent a too long forgotten and isolated territorial annex to this Dominion. A definite lack of transport facilities by land, sea and rail still hampers all adequate development of the natural resources in that part of the country.
Gaspe has much too long been kept in a state of stagnation which must no longer be tolerated. The population is aroused and will no longer be satisfied with small wharf extensions or bits of roads thrown in, here or there, on the eve of general elections. They ask, they demand, and justly so, the necessary cooperation of the dominion and the province for the implementation of a well-conceived, practical and long-term programme of economic reconstruction which will bring forth progress and prosperity to this vast
The Address-Mr. Arsenault

region and keep at home its sons and daughters, who are now forced to seek abroad their livelihood.
After this brief analysis of the factors which account for slow economic development in the Gaspe peninsula it should be plain what reform is needed.
In all countries or districts, economic planning should be based on population or manpower, so as to pro.vide a decent standard of living for the people and make room for the annual surplus of population.
As a first step, therefore, resources should be set free and put within the reach of all in accordance with a policy which would allow them to be used while safeguarding the supply.
This presupposes an overall plan which would apply to the whole peninsula. A glance at the map will quickly convince us that such a scheme for regional development is desirable.
A few big rivers drain the area while normally they ought to give access to it. Highways should complement them. Along such roads and rivers, people might head for the interior, making good use of soil and forest and developing mines.
It would then be possible to set up enterprises sufficiently important to secure the advantages of big industry while decentralizing its operation so as to gain its social benefits.
In the Gaspe peninsula, we of Bonaventure county have reached a point in our development where we shall have to bring to the planning of our economic life more thought, consideration, discrimination, study, methodical work and especially greater foresight than in the past.
That is why I suggest that as their first joint scheme, the dominion and provincial authorities set free from their huge concentration camp the natural resources of the Gaspe area, by building or completing at least four big highways one of which, already begun, would cross the centre of the peninsula from end to end, stretching from Gaspe to Causapscal or Amqui.
The other three could be opened transversally. One, begun several years ago, should connect Cascapedia, in Bonaventure county, and Sainte-Anne des Monts in Gaspe county; another should head north from the village of Bonaventure or Saint-Charles de Caplan toward the settlement of Grande-Vallee and Grande-Vallee itself, in Gaspe county.
Finally a third transversal highway might go northeast from Carleton, Saint-Omer or Saint-Jean-l'Evangeliste, in Bonaventure

county, to Matane, crossing the settlements of Saint-Rene-Goupil and Saint-Luc de Matane.
The completion of such a network of highways would leave plenty of room for some fifty new parishes in the centre of the Gaspe peninsula. Such large scale schemes would require, as I have said, the cooperation of the dominion and provincial governments and would, to a great extent, help put within the re.ach of all its people, the natural resources of this vast country.
Although Bonaventure county is in the main an agricultural district, it is, in eastern Quebec, one of the most important producers of lobster, salmon, cod, halibut and other fish.
Unfortunately, as we have already seen, the fishermen of the county are lacking adequate fishing harbours which would allow them to carry on their trade at all times during the fishing seasons, that is, which would make it easier for them to get their boats in or out both at high and low tides.
Consequently it is urgent that all harbours of Bonaventure county be sufficiently dredged to a suitable depth.
I want particularly to draw the attention of the Hon. Minister of Public Works (Mr. Fournier) on the necessity of improving the fishing harbours of Gascons, Paspebiac, Saint-Gode-froy, Port-Daniel and Bonaventure parish. I take this opportunity to congratulate him most sincerely upon having recently agreed, in spite of rather difficult circumstances, to reconstruct the fishing harbour at Ruisseau-Leblane.


Mr. BRUNELLE:: What about electricity?


Bona Arsenault: I will come to that later. The various provincial governments have built cold storage plants for the fishermen in the following localities of Bonaventure county:	Gascons, West-Gascons, Anse-a-la-
Barbe, Port-Daniel, Paspebiac, Bonaventure, Saint-Simeon, Ruisseau-Leblane, Carleton and Saint-Godefroy. A cold storage plant will soon be erected at Saint-Charles de Caplan.
The provincial department of fisheries is doing excellent work for the fishermen of the Gaspe peninsula.
It now behooves the dominion government to assume the share which they are so anxiously expected to take. I know that the necessary funds can readily be found-and we do not ask for billions of dollars-for the economic reestablishment of our people.
The Gaspe fishermen will not be able to modernize their equipment, or use larger boats for maintaining and increasing their production if they do not have suitable harbours. Transport and communication facilities are the life blood of a region's economy. In the past, the Gaspe fishermen have certainly not been spoiled in that regard.

_______ The Address-Mr. Arsenault
From the standpoint of agriculture, we already know that the county of Bonaventure is in no way inferior to most of the other rural counties of the province. The dairy industry is highly developed there. But, here again, wre are at a distance of 350 miles from Ste. Anne de la Pocatiere, where the nearest agricultural college is to be found.
_ That is why I advocate the establishment in the county of Bonaventure of a dominion experimental sub-station which could serve the whole southern part of the Gaspe peninsula. Farming conditions in our area are peculiar, and the results of research work conducted at far remote experimental stations cannot easily be adapted to the Gaspe peninsula.
Such a dominion experimental sub-station could provide a link between the experiments conducted respectively in New Brunswick and Quebec; it would help the farmers in their work, and afford better farming data to technical agriculturists, thus greatly enhancing their work in the region.
Besides, it would promote the development of better methods on our farms, which, as a rule, are small, and ascertain our possibilities in animal husbandry and the growing of special crops.
I notice that my time is rapidly running out. I do not want to impose on my hon. colleagues. I would have liked to speak of other problems, such as protection works that could be undertaken in cooperation with the provincial government. [DOT]
Some of our most beautiful towms, Carleton, New Richmond and Bonaventure, for example, have been greatly damaged by erosion and it is an urgent matter that the ravages be checked.
I should have liked to show what could be done to further develop the tourist industry, which is an important source of revenue in the Bonaventure constituency as, indeed, in the whole of the Gaspe peninsula.
I wanted to point out the improvements which could be made in the railway system serving the southern part of the peninsula, from Matapedia to Gaspe and crossing the Bonaventure constituency from one boundary to the other.
I wished to speak about the problem of removing railway crossings in my constituency.
I must at least point out that it is now time to operate, in the constituencies of Bonaventure and Gaspe, especially in the southern part, a daily passenger service, Sundays included, between Matapedia and Gaspe. I know that, with the cooperation of the Minister of Trans-83166-12
port and of my colleague from Gaspe (Mr. Langlois), we shall be successful in obtaining this essential improvement. I also would have liked to speak of the many projects submitted by various municipalities of Bonaventure county which would fit in with the government's post-war reconstruction programme- and of the power question.
I shall have the opportunity of reviewing these matters during this session. I think I have today put our case clearly enough as to the immensity of our needs, the volume and variety of our problems.
Bonaventure county and the Gaspe peninsula as a whole, are equipped with powerful and effective organizations, such as chambers of commerce, farmers' and fishermen's cooperatives, lubermen's unions and credit unions which have all greatly expanded, especially during these recent years, and which contribute as a whole to the economic development of the Gaspe peninsula.
It is our duty to encourage their magnificent work. It is above all our duty to give the population of Gaspe, the population of Bonaventure county, that cooperation which was refused them in the past.
Fishing, agriculture, lumbering, mining and the large and small industries can and must be organized in accordance with a modern formula and thus form the foundation upon which will be built the economic and social superstructure of this region.
The improvement of transportation facilities and of means of communication would put an end to the isolation which has been the lot of the Gaspe peninsula for so long. The proper coordination of resources would make possible the elaboration of an annual works programme and promote the expansion of the region.
It would then be possible to have an education programme truly suited to the needs of our Gaspe youth and to keep with us these boys and girls who shall be delighted to have our assistance in building their future in the country where they were born, one of the nicest in the world and one that they love so dearly.


Mr. G. R. PEARKES (Nanaimo) (Text):: Mr. Speaker, may I say a word of welcome to the new members who are here for the first time this session. May I offer my congratulations to those who have already spoken, and may I send my best wishes to the new member who has yet to go through the ordeal of a maiden speech, which I believe we shall all hear this evening. If my salutations are brief I assure you, sir, that they are no less sincere.

The Address-Mr. Pearkes

This afternoon I want to make a few observations regarding the important question of national defence. Within your lifetime, sir, and in the lifetime of the majority of hon. members Canadian forces have taken part in three major wars: the South African war, the great war, and world war II. We as public servants would not be fulfilling the trust which the electors reposed in us when they sent us here a year or so ago if we do not do our utmost to direct the course of this country so as to make a third world war impossible. Unless the nations of the world find the means by which they can cooperate in order to achieve that desired effect we shall not be doing our duty. I believe we can meet the challenge of any other philosophy that contains within itself the seeds of war.
I should like to refer to the remarks which were made the other day by the leader of this party. He said that the prevention of war in our lifetime could be achieved if we demonstrated to other nations that democracies can serve society better than communism. I believe that the prospects for the prevention of another war in our lifetime are probably better than they have ever been before, and there are reasons for that. After the first world war the United States remained1 outside the councils of the league of nations. They are now taking a leadihg part in the reconstruction of the world. Furthermore one sees in the united nations organization the germ of an organization far stronger than that of the league of nations of a quarter of a century ago. In that united nations organization, I suggest, exists the machinery through which the nations of the world can cooperate. I would refer to the opening sentence of the report of the secretary general of the united nations organization in which he said:
The idea which first took formal shape at the Moscow conference in 1944, the idea of a world organization for the maintenance _ of peace and security built around the war-time union of free peoples in defence of civilization, has become a reality.
Nor am I alarmed at what would appear at first sight to be the inevitable slowness of the machinery, the inevitable slowness of the security council. It must be remembered that we are living in an era of post-war upheaval. There is distress and destruction in many parts of the world. Riots and semi-open warfare prevail in Palestine and in many other places. The peace terms have not yet been decided. Surely under these circumstances it is wise for the security council to move slowly and not to rush into agreements which might cause us trouble in the future; for I am firmly convinced that the failure of the

united nations organization would be the failure of peace and a victory for the gods of war.
Then the leader of this party went on to say:
There must be a second defence against war. There must be maintained, preferably by the united nations but if not by them by the democracies, adequate means for preventing aggression by any nation, however great.
These remarks he made when speaking in the debate on the address in reply to the speech from the throne and he went on to point out that there is no immediate issue but that Canada like any other of [DOT] the democracies must be prepared to maintain a sufficient force to ensure that there is no aggression by any other nation against her shores.
Might I suggest as a possible objective or task of the Canadian defence forces that if would be twofold:	first, to take the first
shock of any aggression by any other nation against Canada, stopping if possible bombers from reaching this country, limiting any advance should airborne or any other forces succeed in getting a footing upon Canadian soil.
I do not think it is necessary for me to repeat the remarks I made in this house during the last session in which I pointed out that the geographical position of Canada and the new weapons which science has invented have, since the close of world war II, made this dominion a possible battlefield should aggression come in the future. If there is a third world war, then Canada, Canadian territory, becomes one of the major theatres of operation, and all we can hope to do, I suggest, is to have some force which will be able to take the first shock of that invasion until such time as the other forces of the united nations organization, of the British commonwealth, of the democracies, may come to our assistance.
Conversely, the second objective of our defence forces should be to have a force which will be able to meet any commitments which the united nations ask us to take part in, in order to augment the forces of the united nations or the democracies should they be called upon to go to the assistance of any nation which had been threatened by an aggressor; able if possible to deter and eventually to defeat any aggressor nation which might be attempting to achieve its aims by war.
That, I suggest, indicates that the external policy of this dominion and the defence policy are wrapped up very closely together. We have seen perhaps the effect of not looking far enough forward and not realizing the

The Address-Mr. Pearkes
consequence of the withdrawal of the Canadian occupational force in Europe. I believe that if we had foreseen, as it might have been foreseen, the effect which the withdrawal of that force would have on the influence which Canada has today in deciding and helping in the reconstruction of Europe and in the preparation of the peace treaties we might not have withdrawn that force so hastily without the consent of parliament, embarrassing those other countries that were maintaining forces. At least, so it was declared. At any rate, it was a little hard on the old country that she should have to bear the burden alone.
It was said that administrative difficulties made it impossible for us to maintain our occupation force in Europe. I suggest that if we are to be a world power our military officials must learn to overcome administrative difficulties.
Canada quite rightly insists that she should have, and does have, a direct interest in maintaining and safeguarding the peace of the world. I believe that the feeling which has been stirred up all over the country because we have not been asked to submit our views-in person, might I say- to the great powers who are now deciding on the peace treaty, is an indication that the people of Canada desire that they should have a direct interest in maintaining and safeguarding the peace of the world.
As I said, I have referred previously to our geographical position and the possibility of this country being in the path of war in the future, and with this in view this house adopted certain, policies recommended by the government and at the last session voted money to implement them. But since this house was prorogued changes have taken place, some, of which were recommended by members on this side of the house. For instance, the three defence departments have been amalgamated under one Minister of National Defence. That was recommended by myself and other hon. members on this side of the house, and I am quite certain the same recommendation came from other quarters as well. But I should like to point out that it was slightly different from Bill No. 304, which remained on the order paper for so long last session, and under which there was to be a minister of national defence (air) and three deputy ministers. However, I am pleased that the change has been made, and also that other recommendations coming from this side of the house have been adopted. We suggested that the administrative services of the three departments might be amalgamated, and according to the press report of S3166-121
the statement by the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Claxton) only a short time ago, that course is being followed.
I hope the policy of bringing the three services closer together may be extended right down to the commands throughout the dominion, thus perhaps avoiding overlapping and duplication. I would recommend that haste should not be shown in selecting the actual points of location for these various command headquarters. The other day it was suggested by the hon. member for Calgary East (Mr. Harkness) that there was dissatisfaction in regard to the location of headquarters in Alberta. I suggest that the whole system of commands might well be reviewed with the idea of bringing about closer affiliation, certainly between the air force and the army and, where applicable, the navy. In that respect I should like to emphasize the fact that we do not have three defence problems but that there is one defence problem for Canada. We do not have three separate defence services each working in a water-tight compartment, but one defence service. With your indulgence, Mr. Speaker, I should like to read the remarks of the Prime Minister of Great Britain to the House of Commons on March 4, 1946, in connection with the white paper on defence. He said:
There are not three defence problems, but one defence problem. Every operation of war to-day demands the closest cooperation of all three services, and economy and efficiency demand that the three fighting services should regard themselves as part of a single service with a common doctrine, rather than, as used to be the case some years ago, as rival claimants on the resources of the nation. Furthermore, modern war is by no means to-day just the responsibility of the fighting services. Modern war involves all the services, and modern means of defence involve the whole nation.
I suggest that very careful consideration be given the idea of developing this policy of close cooperation wisely started now by amalgamating the three services under one minister. Those economies are sound, and should be extended.
Now we come to the question of whether it is wise, as has been intimated in the press report of the statement by the minister, that there should also be a reduction in the combat units of the three services. Mind you, a year ago we were told that these combat services were the bare minimum necessary to enable this country to meet her peacetime obligations; but we are told now that the active army, the active navy and the active air force are again to be reduced by twenty-five per cent; and, reading the report of the press conference with the minister, it is easy to realize
The Address-Mr. Pearkes

that the reserves are being reduced to practically nothing. During the session before last the then minister explained the necessity for having two fleets, one on the Atlantic and one on the Pacific. He referred to Halifax as the main fleet base on the Atlantic and Esquimalt as the main fleet base on the Pacific. In his remarks introducing his estimates, to be found at page 876 of Hansard for October 9, 1945, he said:
. . . Canada's peace-time navy should comprise two cruisers, probably two light fleet carriers, ten to twelve destroyers, and the necessary ancillary craft, all of these of the latest and most modern type, while in reserve and for training purposes, we will continue to hold a certain number of frigates.
In answer to a question the other day the Minister of National Defence said it had never been the intention of the government to have two aircraft carriers continuously in commission. Just before Christmas it was announced that H.M.C.S. Warrior was arriving at Esquimalt. The whole population of Esquimalt and many people from Victoria and the southern part of Vancouver island turned out to welcome Canada's first aircraft carrier to its home port. The lieutenant governor and a distinguished gathering were there; a salute of twenty-one guns was fired, and Canadians were justly proud when they saw their first carrier steam in to Esquimalt. Then a few days ago we were told that this carrier was on loan from the British navy; that as a matter of fact at the present moment she is about to return to her rightful owners; that she is about to cruise into southern waters to take part in certain exercises, after which she will go to the United Kingdom, probably to rejoin the Royal Navy. It is understood that she will be replaced by another aircraft carrier, which will be lent to us for a while and which will take part in certain exercises in the Atlantic.
I feel that there has been a sudden deflation. The people of Canada believed these carriers were their own; they did not realize they wTere merely on loan, to be withdrawn at the will of the British navy. Two years ago anxiety was expressed by the hon. member for Yale (Mr. Stirling), whose personal experience with the navy has been long, that Canada was not providing sufficient men to man the ships she had. Now I believe the establishment of 10,600 for the navy is to be reduced to 7,500. The story is the same in connection with the Royal Canadian Air Force. First-line aircraft are being reduced. The number of men is being cut down from the original estimate of some
16,000	to 12,000. Auxiliary squadrons have
.
been rendered practically useless because of the little encouragement, if any, which has been given to them.


Brooke Claxton: Would the hon. member permit me to interject one word? I know he wishes to be fair. So far there has been no reduction announced. What has been announced is that the force will be recruited only up to seventy-five per cent at the present time.


George Randolph Pearkes: We now come to the army. We were told that the active force would be of about 25,000, and I presume it will be recruited to only seventy-five per cent of that number. According to press reports, it was said there would be adjustments made in the airborne force. I wish to give a warning that those adjustments should be made most carefully, because an airborne force must be carefully balanced. If cuts are made here and there the whole organization will be thrown off balance, and become useless. The active army is to consist of the various headquarters, regularly employed personnel assisting the reserve army, and an airborne brigade or field force, whatever it may be called.
We now come to a consideration of the reserve army, and in this connection I would call attention to some observations respecting that force. It is a force with which I know many hon. members have been closely connected in the past. I read from page 1135 of Hansard for October 16, 1945, where the then Minister of National Defence said:
Reorganization of our military forces will proceed on the basis of a plan which contemplates that an organized citizens' part-time reserve army will form the source from which a field force would be found in the event of war.
He goes on to say that this force-
. . . will reflect the military potential of the country and whose staffs and units will form the basis of mobilization of a field force.
Then he goes on to say:
In so far as the reserve army is concerned, it is to be organized as a force of six divisions with supporting armoured elements and selected corps and army troops for an army of two corps. In addition the reserve army will include our operational coast and anti-aircraft artillery units and supporting services necessary for the static defence of the country.
And he states further:
Adequate equipment of the latest type will be available on a generous scale to ensure that the training of the reserve army is realistic and interesting. It is intended to assist commanding officers of reserve army units in the training and administration of their personnel by providing for each unit full-time (active force) officers and other ranks on an adequate scale.

The Address-Mr. Pearkes
Then again last year, speaking about the same force, he mentioned that the reserve army, or as it was formerly known, the nonpermanent active militia, has been the-
. . . backbone of onr fighting force in two wars, and I cannot contemplate any future war in which it would not carry out a similar role.
A little later on, he said that he hoped to make the service "more attractive than it was before the war"-and he was referring to the second world war.
I expressed some doubt at the time as to the effectiveness of this force. As reported at page 5046 of Hansard for August 19, 1946, I said this:
I believe the organization is faulty because the government has not taken a realistic view of the up-to-date requirements of the type of defence which Canada needs to-day.
Apparently others were thinking along the same lines, because last December a conference of defence associations met here in Ottawa. This is a group of non-professional soldiers, men who have been successful in other walks of life, and who have devoted their time to furthering the interests of the reserve army. At the Ottawa conference they expressed themselves in a resolution in these terms-and I shall read only part of it because it is lengthy:
. . . the present plan could not be effectively and adequately achieved under the provisions outlined by the government.
Then the resolution went on to urge that the plan be reconsidered in order to produce an "army it requires when needed".
It was disclosed in the press conference held recently by the Minister of National Defence that the force which originally had been designed as one of six divisions, with those other corps and the armoured troops to which I have referred, aggregating a strength of 180,060, is now being restricted or, shall we say, is not to be recruited beyond a force of
50,000.	That is a. big reduction, from 180,000 to 50,000 in the force which is to provide the defence of this country, and one which the previous minister had described as providing the bare minimum necessary.
I cannot help recalling a toy I had when I was a little boy. It was a rubber balloon which, when inflated, took the form of an animal, and when gradually the air leaked out of it most realistically sank to the floor with suitable moanings and winnings. Eventually it became nothing but a little heap of rubber on the floor.
I suggest that all the substance has been taken out of our defence force and that today there remains only the wreckage of the overhead framework. I cannot help feeling that those stupid and boastful statements made a
year and a half ago have now been debunked.
I do not wish to appear wise after the event, because I did say when the discussion of the estimates took place last year that I felt they were definitely wasteful and unwarranted, because they would not be effective. The force which was designed as the army to meet aggression, if aggression ever came, the force of these six divisions, is now reduced to
50,000	men.
But that is not the end of it. We must examine whether a force of that nature could ever have been efficient. Schemes which provide for the mobilization of a first division to take the field six months after the outbreak of war or after mobilization has been ordered certainly bear no relation whatever to modern warfare. I do not think there is anyone who will deny that it would take at least six months for the first division to be ready to take the field, twelve months for the second and third divisions, and nobody can estimate how long it would take to have the fourth, fifth and sixth divisions made ready.
There were no six months left to the United States after Pearl Harbor. There were no six months left to Poland in the early days of the war. I believe that if this question of national defence were faced fearlessly and the problem viewed in a realistic manner, forgetting old worn-out formations and systems which served their time in the past, it would be possible for this or any other government to prepare a defence force which would be capable of meeting the requirements I mentioned early in my remarks and which could be organized, trained and equipped within the means which it would be reasonable to expect the taxpayers of this country to provide.
I feel quite certain that plans based merely upon tradition, based merely upon old formations of the time of the first great war will never be effective in meeting the problems of today. I suggest that a scheme for the defence of this country which pictures the first division being ready to take the field six months after the outbreak of war is of as much value as would be a system of calling for the annual muster of rangers and fencibles such as we had a hundred years ago.


Mr. ALCIDE COTE (St. Johns-Iberville-Napiervi'lle) (Translation):: Mr. Speaker, both the mover (Mr. MacNaught) and the seconder (Mr. Cournoyer) of the address in reply to the speech from the throne deserve commendation for their able and brief presentations.
What I should like to do to-day is give an answer to the practical appeal of the hon. member for Prince (Mr. MacNaught) in making very briefly to the house and the
The Address-Mr. Alcide Cote

government a positive suggestion which, I believe, follows logically from the speech from the throne.
In this period of post-war reconstruction, the solution to economic problems both in Canada and in other countries seems extremely difficult. The most destructive and widespread of all conflicts has disrupted the world economy to a point where balance can only be achieved by enduring efforts and untiring courage on the part of governments.
Pessimists have little patience and are easily discouraged. All those pessimists who generally foresee universal bankruptcy in the near future, might profitably read "The Congress of Vienna", by Harold Nicholson, or "Man, an Autobiography", by George Stewart. There they will find that problems which seemed beyond solution in 1815 offer great similarity with the difficult and complicated problems of 1945 and the present day. A close comparison between those two periods would indicate that the prospects are still brighter to-day than they were then.
But there are pessimists of a still more dangerous kind. They are those who, in this very house, try to make believe that all is lost, that there is no possible hope, in order to deprive the people of the confidence they have placed in the present government and which is absolutely essential to their continued welfare and security.
Suffice it to remind those people that if, to-day, after a war that has wrought havoc upon the world and crushed numerous peoples, Canada appears, in the family of nations, as the one that has made the most progress towards nationhood and economic maturity, it is due to her present administration.
History, as I was saying a moment ago when comparing the 1815 period with that of 1945, has repetitions that can be put to account in seeking the solution of problems and in appraising progress.
However the last world ordeal, that left most countries exhausted, collapsed and ruined, imparted to the problem of economic reconversion a peculiar character, that must not be overlooked.
The last conflict seems to have removed for all time natural and conventional boundaries between continents and countries.
Science, which is meant to serve mankind, can now be easily and fully turned against it, unless man's ambition is kept in check. The sad and last ventures of nazism and fascism remain as cruel and undeniable examples.
There was a time when armed conflict and economic disturbances could perhaps be confined to certain parts of the world, while other parts remained substantially unaffected.

But today isolationism has in every respect disappeared with a part of humanity, in the last world war. And science that ambitious self-seekers used as a tool to bring all peoples of the earth into a mass butchery must now be handed back to the same peoples for the sake of the economic and social security of individuals.
This final bringing together of the nations of the earth into a world community is the particular feature that must not be overlooked and which I mentioned a moment ago.
The dynamic phrase of an American statesman "one world" retains its prophetic import; and the world shall henceforth remain one both in war or in peace.
Nations are the individuals of a world community. Small as well as great nations should be able to rely on the protection of the central organization of their community just as do citizens in dealing with their government. There must be charity and justice for nations as well as for individuals.
There is but one world, as peoples of the earth dearly paid to realize.
There is but one community of human beings, whose dignity must be respected notwithstanding distances and climes; unfortunately that principle of justice is not yet universally understood or applied. Archibald MacLeish rightly said in an American forum, and I quote:
(Text):
What we suffer from in international affairs is in effect a split of citizenship. We are citizens of a world economy whether we wish to be or not. We are not-however we may wish we were, citizens of a world society, a world community.
(Translation):
In order that nations may at home live in complete security according to their racial character and aspirations, we must ensure equal protection for all nations of the world through peaceful means.
Such national and international security is only possible through the maintenance of improved economic conditions, based on the same principles of justice and charity.
International cooperation in the economic sphere is therefore essential for the maintenance of peace. Taking its inspiration from that basic truth, the speech from the throne states as follows:
Canada welcomed the action of the united nations in convening a world conference on trade and employment. It is hoped that the conference may bring into being an international charter which, by the removal or reduction of restrictions, will result in the continuous expansion of world trade. During

The Address-Mr. Alcide Cote
the autumn, preparatory trade discussions among the nations of the commonwealth were held in London. Discussions are being continued with other of the united nations. Canada's delegation to the conference will be instructed to further to the utmost this combined effort on the part of the united nations to liberate trade and thereby to assist in the maintenance of a high level of employment.
And further:
Industry has been converted almost entirely from war-time purposes to peace-time production. Over a million persons have been transferred from the armed forces and war industry to regular civilian occupations. Employment is higher than it has ever been. It is over thirty per cent higher than it w'as in 1939. During 1946 Canada's external commerce reached heights unprecedented in peace time. The national income is at its highest peacetime level. The outlook for trade and employment for 1947 is most favourable.
Well, at this point, I should like to offer the house and the government a suggestion which I consider extremely practical and which, in my humble opinion, springs directly from the two excerpts from the throne speech which I have just quoted.
The transportation problem, like that of production, is at the bottom of all human difficulties.
If we wish to benefit from the International Conference on Trade and Employment and keep trade and employment at a high level in the country; if we wish to maintain and even increase production for our own needs as well as for those of foreign countries, all means of transportation, both national and international, must be adequate for the disposal of products, commodities or raw materials.
A few years ago, the government, realizing the economic importance of a water route between the Great Lakes and the Atlantic via the Richelieu river and Lake Champlain, decided to dredge said river. Work was begun and a dam was even built at Fryar island.
Unfortunately, on account of war, work had to be stopped on that important project.
Now that hostilities have ended, and as the financial position of this country is improving and our external trade is reaching a hitherto unknown peak, not only do events confirm the soundness of the already initiated project calling for the dredging of the Richelieu river, but they warrant resumption of work as soon as possible.
That project is neither local nor regional, although it interests many localities and many areas; it is a project of national and international import.
Here is what, among others, Mr. Leland Olds, an outstanding economist from the State of New York, had to say in that connection:
(Text):
We find that in the great lakes-St. Lawrence tributary area, the area that would find an outlet through this proposed seaway, that would find a means of securing its raw materials and other goods imported or brought from other regions of the country through this seaway-we find that in this area we have a total population of something over forty-two million people, which compares with a population of approximately fifty million people in the Atlantic coastal area. In other words, simply in terms of the Atlantic coast in relation to what would become the great lakes coast if this seaway were opened, we have a relationship established between approximately forty-two million people living in the great lakes tributary area and approximately fifty million people living in the Atlantic coastal area. This is an important economic fact, because those vast populations are both producers and consumers, and to a very considerable extent in our highly integrated economic order, they are purchasers and consumers of each other's products; there is a flow back and forth from one region to the other wherever you have a producing and a consuming population of great magnitude. Now, this proposed lake Champlain-Hudson river route, affords a direct natural connection for cargo vessels moving in inter-coastal trade between this great lakes area and this Atlantic seaboard area. . . .
In closing what I have to say I would like simply to reemphasize one point and that is that in weighing the importance of a waterway project such as that which is before the commission to-day, we are dealing primarily with a connection between economic areas, between regions of economic importance, in terms of agriculture, in terms of mining, in terms of industry, on the one hand, treating them as producing regions; in terms of consumption- consumption of raw materials, consumption of non-consumer goods, on the other hand; and if we can look at the problem with imagination we will see that figures such as are presented in most reports represent simply the stepping stones to a conception of this waterway, not to-day, not ten years from now, but in terms of what it will mean in the life of the country twenty or thirty years from now, a life which it itself has helped to create and expand.
In other %vords, the figures that were compiled by the department of commerce in document No. 116, whereas they actually show nothing specific or directly about traffic; whereas they say nothing about tons of steel or tons of wood or tons of rubber or tons of automobiles moving, actually they show that underlying such a project as this there are dynamic potentialities which mean that once you create an interconnection that demonstrably means lower transportation costs, you have created an agency which will build its own commerce rather than take commerce away from other agencies, and in doing so will build up the economic regions of the great lakes area, the Atlantic area and the Pacific area, which it will serve as low cost interconnection.
The Address-Mr. Alcide Cote

(Translation):
This natural waterway would place New York only 450 miles from Montreal, whereas the distance by sea, through the gulf, is now approximately 1,700 miles. Substantial savings could thus be effected, but this consideration takes second place to the extraordinary stimulus the new route would give to Canadian industry.
We are on the eve of a great industrial era in Canada. Transportation even new is unable to cope with production not only between different points in Canada, but between Canada and the United States. Railway deliveries are delayed in some sections because freight cars are required in some other part of the country.
When the coal strike broke out across the border, this waterway could have been used to carry fuel to Canada, thus preventing a shortage of that essential product at home.
The normal development of this waterwaj' would provide the heart of Canadian industry with an essential channel for the successful expansion of our internal and international trade.
The improvement of this waterway would also benefit agriculture. Indeed, 40,000 acres of land now under water would benefit from an adequate draining, and according to Engineer Michaud, at least 30,000 acres of the richest farming land would be placed under cultivation.
That within a short time 300 new 100-acre farms in one of the most fertile sections, at the very gateway to the United States, could be added to the agricultural resources of our country seems the height of the most enthusiastic colonizer's dream. And yet this is but a very realistic phase of an undertaking already launched.
The government of this country realized the economic importance of this undertaking so well that as far back as 1937 they recognized its urgency in an application dated April 1, 1937. I quote:
(Text):
The government of Canada asks that approval may be given to the project . . . and hopes that the commission in view of the need for protection against flood conditions, will expedite matters so that construction can be commenced at an early date.
(Translation):
At St. Albans, on June 9, 1937, and in Montreal, on June 10 of the same year, Mr. John E. Read, legal adviser of the Depart-

ment of External Affairs of Canada, once more referred to the urgency of this project when he said:
(Text):
The construction of the Richelieu remedial works, is regarded by the government of Canada as a matter of real urgency.
(Translation):
The urgency of this project was recognized by the government as far back as 1937. Now in 1947, with the expansion of our domestic and foreign trades, it has become twice and even three times greater.
The importance of this route was stressed by the Minister of Transport (Mr. Chevrier) in a speech which he delivered in Vancouver on January 23, 1947. I quote from the report published in the Montreal newspaper Le Canada, on January 24:
The Minister of Transport pointed out that Canada, with a population of less than twelve million, is to-day the third largest exporter in the world and that Canadian industries have developed to a point where they are surpassed only in the United Kingdom and the United States. Canada is now the third largest naval power and the fourth largest air power. She has doubled her steel production and stands now as the fourth steel producer among the united nations. She holds first place in the production of many essential minerals and her wheat crop is sufficient to feed all Canadians and attend to the normal wants of 80,000,000 more people. According to Mr. Chevrier, the important link in this picture of our expanding domestic relations is transportation.
The Minister of Transport stated that: Transportation must continue to expand. Competition between various means of transportation is strong enough to insure an uninterrupted development.
And he added:
It is the duty of the federal and provincial governments to see that the march towards progress receives full support, whether it be for the benefit of rail, sea, air or highway transportation.
The government must decide as soon as possible to resume the dredging of the Richelieu river. It would be possible to improve during the current year that part of the river which flows between the United States and St. Johns since a good part of the channel would require no dredging.
The preliminary work would, relatively speaking, cost little and would not deprive industry at large of any material or labour.
The work is urgent and should not be delayed until such time as we have unemployment. At any rate, the dredging machinery and the small number of workers required would not constitute an efficient solution to the problem.

The Address-Mr. Massey
However, should this work be undertaken immediately, it might prevent unemployment since it would increase business and trade.
Mr. Speaker, I wanted to submit that recommendation to the government because I believe it would serve the interests of the country.


Mr. DENTON MASSEY (Greenwood) (Text):: Mr. Speaker, before I commence the remarks which I have to make in this debate I regard it as my sad pleasure to refer to my late friend the Hon. P. J. A. Cardin, K.C., whom I had known for eleven years. I first met him when I entered the house in 1935. I cannot think of his memory without remembering his many courtesies and kindnesses to me and the great help he was to me as a new member. Through you, sir, if I may, I extend to his family my deepest sympathy.
I should also like to congratulate the mover and the seconder of the address in reply to the speech from the throne on their splendid efforts and the sincerity of their speeches. Before proceeding, I should further like to make a brief inference to the magnificent utterance of my leader in presenting the amendment to the motion which now stands before the house.
In speaking to the amendment, Mr. Speaker, which I wholeheartedly support, there is much to be discussed. There is the tangle of dominion-provincial relations; there are the unsettled and restless labour conditions; there is the startling question of housing; there are matters pertaining to national defence, so vitally important to the future security of this country and so ably discussed this afternoon by my colleague; there is the irritating and scrambled taxation situation; and the list goes on and on. I am not going to attempt to deal with a multiplicity of matters this afternoon; there will be opportunity as the session proceeds for such discussion. I am going to deal with only one matter, namely that of public health and health insurance.
Not so many years ago one of the world's great nutritionists, Sir John Boyd Orr wrote an article in the Listener in which he said, "The future of a country depends not so much upon trade of wealth or even armaments as upon the health and happiness of the people and the physique and vigour of the race." It is in the spirit of that last comment that I approach my subject today.
I think I am safe in saying that there is not an hon. member in this house who will not heartily agree with me that the questions of national health and health insurance are among the most vitally important questions being faced by Canada today. But what is the position in these matters? For years they have been bandied about on the skinny premise
that they were purely provincial matters. Little support has been given to the provinces in their own field of public health. Virtually the provinces have been left to their own planning and to the exercise of their own financial resources, depending in great measure upon public support and to the generosity of the people of the provinces to maintain such public health works as they could. The result has been what one might expect. There are widely diversified standards of health between one province and another. Let me illustrate with the results of one disease, tuberculosis. In Canada in 1945 there were 5,559 deaths from this disease. In one province alone, Quebec, there were 2,557 deaths; in Ontario 1,053; and in the seven other provinces 1,949. In the matter of infant mortality, in 1945 there were seventy infant deaths for every 1.000 live births in New Brunswick compared with 62 in Quebec, 53 in Nova Scotia, 48 in Manitoba, 45 in Prince Edward1 Island, 44 in Saskatchewan, 43 in Alberta, 42 in British Columbia and 41 in Ontario.
Why should there be this lack of uniformity? The answer is obvious. It is that there is no coordinating authority between one province and another in these matters. Why should the people of one province benefit more substantially in public health than the people of another province, maybe an adjoining one? The answer is also obvious. There is lack of federal cooperation and coordination, not domination, a word which is anathema to every province in Canada. I shall come to this question of "domination" in a few moments. This lack of coordination and cooperation seems to be as perennial as it is hoary. I do not wish to bathe the house in a bath of history, but for the next few minutes I should like briefly to review the history of the Department of National Health in this government because I think it has such an important bearing on what I have to say.
During the elections of 1935. 1940 and 1945, those of us who listened to the radio heard Liberal candidate after Liberal candidate trumpet about what was going to happen in the way of public health services should his party be elected to power. We read in Liberal literature; we read in the press reports of Liberal speeches this bolstering of the idea of national health to become the child of the federal parent if the parent were to be a Liberal government. There was to be the introduction of health insurance and so on. But what has been accomplished? I need not be reminded that we were a country at war from 1939 to 1945, and no hon. member may say that during those years our effort was directed totally and completely toward a
The Address-Mr. Massey

total war effort and that therefore there were some matters such as these that could be neglected.
The greatest challenge in connection with public health comes during a war. The highest demand on the health of a nation is placed on that nation during a war, not only for the present but for the future as well, again for an obvious reason. This point was fully recognized by the United Kingdom, which was quick to recognize it. As a result, the United Kingdom, at the time I left it to return to Canada on duty in 1945, was able to announce through its minister of health that the health of the people there was the highest in the history of the country.
We cannot help regarding the government as having been derelict in its duty and deficient in its function for not having evolved long since practical, progressive measures in cooperation with the provinces to heighten and better the national health and to make health insurance, in some form satisfactory to patient and physician alike, available to the people of Canada.
The situation, however, has not been altogether unrecognized. The voices of various ministers of national health have been raised in connection with it, both in this house and outside-voices, I say. Speaking of voices, perhaps I might refer, with the permission of the house, to a speech which it was my privilege to make in this house on May 22. 1939, as reported in volume 4 of Hansard of that session, page 4379 and on.
It was no impromptu speech. It was made as a result of intensive study and after consultation with and review by some of the highest authorities in the country on the subject, such as Sir Frederick Banting, my late deceased and very close friend.
I endeavoured earnestly to direct the attention of the government to the national health situation of that day, its discrepancies, its inconsistencies and the necessity for immediate action. Further I endeavoured to point out, on the basis of the old adage that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, that across this country, speaking broadly, the provinces were spending ten per cent on prevention and ninety per cent on cure.
I also pointed out the ghastly waste, amounting to hundreds of millions annually, through loss of working hours and through illness and expenditures for hospitalization, drugs, nurses, doctors and all the rest. I spoke of the handicap placed on the low wage-earner and the indigent and their families who cannot afford adequate medical services and counsel, so

vitally necessary for the building of health and the maintenance of life itself. I concluded my speech with a plea for a national health programme, in these words which will be found at page 4386 of Hansard in the volume to which I have referred:
We owe a debt to the past, and the only way we can pay it is by putting the future in debt to ourselves. What better way is there for us to accept this responsibility than to make sure that our new Canadians are born of healthy parents, and that the children of these children do not have to face the hazards occasioned by the undernourishment and resulting ill-health of their fathers and mothers in early life. The challenge is clear, the way is clear. Medical science stands ready and willing to do its part. So I ask the government, is it prepared to accept the challenge?
The hon. member for Quebec South (Mr. Power), then Minister of Pensions and National Health, in his reply referred most generously to the speech I had made and went on to say, as reported at page 4387:
There has been no doubt at all in my mind, particularly since I have had an opportunity to give health matters that study which I have been enabled to give them since taking over this department-
Note this particularly, Mr. Speaker.
-that the state has as much responsibility to look after the health of its citizens as it has to protect them against burglary or any other social calamity.
And later on:
There is room for cooperation. There is room for coordination of effort. There is a crying demand for some kind of conference-
Where have we heard that word before?
-so that we may trace, as betwreen municipality, province and dominion, just what are our responsibilities and how w-e may be able to carry them out to the best of our ability in order to assist the entire population.
Then on March 11, 1943, the then Minister of Pensions and National Health, at present the right hon. Minister of Veterans Affairs (Mr. Mackenzie), at the conclusion of a lengthy statement before the committee on reconstruction, social security and health insurance, as reported at page 51 of the proceedings of that day, said:
Our enlistment statistics in the present war show definitely that the health of Canada is better than it w-as at the time of enlistment in the great war. Thus, we may say with confidence that, broadly speaking, Canada has made progress in the cause of public health, but in many respects, the present statistical record indicates that there is room for a great deal of improvement.
And later on:
Great strides have been made in Canada but many serious gaps remain.
At six o'clock the house took recess.

The Address-Mr. Massey
After Recess
The house resumed at eight o'clock.


Denton Massey: Mr. Speaker, when the house took recess at six o'clock I was reviewing a comment or so of successive ministers of health in an attempt to indicate that the problem of national health and health insurance has faced this government constantly in spite of the lack of action in connection therewith. In other words tonight I am not dealing with a new problem. I shall continue with these quotations.
In the plenary session of the dominion-provincial conference of 1945, on August 6, the then Minister of National Health and Welfare, now Minister of National Defence (Mr. Claxton) is reported at page 85 of the report of the proceedings as having said the following, in addressing the conference:
Although great progress has been made in Canada during the first half of this century, there still remains a tremendous job to be done in improving the national health and in extending the benefits of modern science and medical care to all parts of the nation and all sections of the population.
And later:
With adequate planning and action throughout the entire country it would be possible to make more progress than wdiat has already been achieved. There are great inequalities in the quantity and quality of health care available to different groups of Canadians, and in the costs of such public and private health services and medical and hospital facilities as are now available. These inequalities in part reflect differences in personal incomes, and in part are due to differences between rural and urban areas. Great differences between provinces arise from these same factors.
Thus, Mr. Speaker, in the past record of this government there is an indication that successive ministers of health have recognized a great need for that about which I am talking tonight. They have also talked about improvement in the health standards of the nation. Of course there has been improvement. in many quarters splendid improvement, but I say it is not for the federal government to trumpet about this improvement, for it has been achieved, as I have already said, by the provinces, who in greatest part have been responsible for this development; the provinces, working virtually on their own, with their own resources, each in its individual way. So I say, all credit to the provincial ministers of health and those associated with them for the advances made so far.
But where stands the federal authority in the vital question of health? I have here under my hand the prolixious Heagerty report, which is virtually an exhaustive
treatise compiled, it states, for the special ' committee on social security, and is dated March 16, 1943. In its five hundred odd pages it contains, among many other things, a draft bill, with schedules, entitled "An act respecting health insurance, public health, the conservation of health and the prevention of disease, and other matters related thereto." This proposed act provides for eight separate grants to each province under the following headings: health insurance grant; tuberculosis grant; mental disease grant; general public health grant; venereal disease grant; grant for professional training; investigational grant; physical fitness grant; and under each of these grants there is a short descriptive paragraph which tvith your permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to have appear on Hansard, without being read, to save time.


James Horace King: Has the hon. gentleman permission to place the document upon Hansardl


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Agreed.


Denton Massey: It is as follows:
J. J. Heagerty Report on Health Insurance Summary-Grants
Health Insurance Grant.-To assist the provinces in providing health insurance benefits as outlined above.
Tuberculosis Grant.-This grant is designed to help provide free treatment for all persons suffering from tuberculosis including the provision of additional buildings and bed accommodation. The reduction of mortality in those provinces which provide free treatment indicates that the provision of free treatment is an essential to the elimination of tuberculosis.
Mental Disease Grant.-To assist in the provision of free treatment for those suffering from mental illness including the provision of additional buildings and bed accommodation. In this field dominion assistance is urgently needed.
General Public Health Grant.-The object of this grant as laid down in the third schedule to the draft bill is to assist the provinces in establishing and maintaining public health services commensurate with the needs of their people. The same problem has confronted the United States and has been solved by the provision of funds to raise the per capita expenditure on public health. It is proposed that the dominion should make a per capita public health grant to the people of Canada. The justification is the responsibility of the dominion for public health problems that are national in character.
Venereal Disease Grant-To aid in providing preventive and free treatment for persons suffering from venereal diseases on the same basis as the original dominion venereal disease grant of $200,000 which was discontinued in ,1932.
Grant for Professional Training.-As the name implies, this grant is to afford financial assistance to doctors, sanitary engineers and others who wish to take university courses leading to degrees in public health.

The Address-Mr. Massey

Investigational Grant.-To enable the provinces to carry out special public health studies, funds are needed. It has been found impossible to carry out studies in public health and to provide a skilled personnel during epidemics because of lack of funds.
Physical Fitness Grant.-In view of the facts elicited in regard to physical defects among the youth of Canada, the creation of a physical fitness plan to prevent physical defects is considered essential.
It will be clear from this brief summary that, apart from the reduction of morbidity and mortality of disease, the fundamental and primary object is the integration of public health and medical care for the purpose of raising and maintaining the standard of health of the people of Canada.
Fart 5 of the proposed act reads as follows:
The statutory provision as respects public health shall include services and activities as set forth in the third schedule to this act, or substantially as therein set forth, or such services and activities as, having regard for all the circumstances, for the special conditions affecting the province as a whole, or any special areas therein, may be approved by the governor in council as a satisfactory practical measure of public health for the province.
The schedule covering this section appears on pages 42 and 43 of the report, and is headed:
The provision and maintenance, under the direction of the minister of health of the provincial government, of the following directional, consultive, educational and administrative services and activities.
Then follows a list of twenty-four items; and I again ask the indulgence of the house, in order that I may complete my remarks, to permit me to place this on Hansard without reading it.


James Horace King: Is it the pleasure of the house that the hon. gentleman shall have leave to place the document on Hansard?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Agreed.


Denton Massey: I thank hon. members. It is as follows:
(1)	Preventive.-To increase existing facilities for the control of communicable diseases and for the free distribution of vaccines and sera and other biological preparations, for the prevention and treatment of such diseases.
(2)	_ Consultive.-To aid in the provision of technical advisory services both in a consultive capacity and for the purpose of controlling outbreaks of communicable diseases.
(3)	Educational.-For the formulation and adoption of a programme of education in the field of public health including the organization of local voluntary agencies for the dissemination of educational information through literature, lectures, radio and other measures.
(4)	Mental Hygiene.-To provide mental hygiene services _ including psychiatric clinics for early diagnosis; and to cooperate with the

department of education in the provision of educational classes for mentally retarded and mentally defective children.
(5)	Communicable Disease Control.-For the provision of communicable disease control services with personnel trained in the field of disease prevention and treatment.
(6)	Food and Drug Control.-For the sanitary supervision of premises and the medical supervision of personnel engaged in the manufacture and distribution of foods, drugs and biological preparations, and for the enactment of legislation for such purposes.
(7)	Nutrition.-To aid in the establishment of nutritional services under a director whose duties shall be to conduct surveys, carry on research and educate the public in regard to nutritive values of foods and to collect data regarding available foods in the province, their transportation, manufacture, distribution and sale.
(8)	Laboratory.-To extend existing laboratory facilities.
(9)	Sanitation.-For the establishment of sanitary engineering services to supervise and direct all measures related to the provision of adequate sanitary facilities.
(19) Vital statistics.-To collect and disseminate all information relating to births, marriages and deaths; to collect morbidity and mortality reports of communicable diseases relating to any health insurance plan that may be adopted by the province; and to publish an annual report analysing the deaths and various factors related thereto.
(11)	Hospitalization and sanatoria.-For the supervision of hospital services under a director experienced in the field of hospitalization and the establishment, maintenance and supervision of hospital standards.
(12)	Dental hygiene.-To provide adequate
dental inspection for school children both in urban and rural areas and for the adoption of corrective measures through cooperation with the health insurance authority:	to extend
travelling clinics to provide remedial treatment in remote districts both in respect of adults and children; and to extend existing dental clinics.
(13)	Child and maternal hygiene.-For the adoption of child and maternal hygiene under the direction of one or more specialists; for the institution of recognized and accepted procedures; for the reduction of infant and maternal mortality and for the purpose of integrating the activities of these services with measures adopted under a health insurance plan for the provision of child and maternal services.
(14)	Industrial hygiene.-To supervise environmental sanitation, medical and nursing services and all factors relating to the health and welfare of industrial and other workers.
(15)	Quarantine including air navigation.- For the adoption of such preventive measures-as are necessary to prevent the dissemination of communicable diseases including diseases which may be introduced into the province by aeroplane.
(16)	Public health nursing.-To provide such public health nursing services as may be necessary for the prevention and treatment of communicable diseases and the supervision of sani-

1S1
The Address-Mr. Massey
tation in relation to the home, as well as the enforcement of quarantine measures; to assist the family in the application of sanitary and social measures and generally in the promotion of health.
(17)	Housing.-Under the sanitary engineering services, to provide regulations governing sites, plans and construction of houses from the standpoint of health.
(18)	Venereal disease.-To establish a division of venereal disease control and to extend existing divisions.
(19)	Tuberculosis.-To develop a comprehensive programme for the prevention of tuberculosis and in cooperation with the health insurance authority to conduct mass X-rays; to provide for rehabilitation of arrested cases; to cooperate with voluntary agencies and to carry out an educational programme.
(20)	Cancer.-To provide aids for early diagnosis through hospitals and clinics and other accepted media; and to cooperate with voluntary agencies in an educational programme.
(2ll) Heart.-To make available preventive and diagnostic services for the prevention and early detection of heart disease in children.
(22)	School health services.-To provide medical inspection of school children in all sections of the province for the detection and control of communicable diseases and for the prevention and correction of physical defects.
(23)	Epidemiology.-'To provide expert personnel for the purpose ot directing all studies,
investigations, preventive and control measures relating to communicable and other diseases.
(24)	Research.-To	conduct research in
diseases both of bacteriological and yirological origin as well as other studies relating to the prevention and control of disease.
The cost of this plan is arrived at on page 488 of the report, where it states;
Total operational cost is placed at $21.60 per capita per year. Estimates of population in 1931 and 1938 are from the Canada Year Hook. 1942, page 98. The total for 1943 is placed at about $260,000 above the final census result for 1941 . . . The total cost is consequently $23.76 per capita, of which the administrative expenditure is estimated at 10 per cent of the operational cost, or $2.16 per capita.
Then for the last time, Mr. Speaker, may I place this small table on Hansard without reading its details?
Some hon. MEMBERS; Agreed.
Mr. SPEAKER; Does the hon. gentleman have the consent of the house?


Denton Massey: This is the last time I shall make this request.
Some hon. MEMBERS; Agreed.


Denton Massey: The figures are as follows;
Cost
Year	Population	Total	Operational	Administrative1931	
10,376,000	$246,533,760	$224,121,600	$22,412,1601938	
11,209,000	266,325,840	242,114,400	24,211,4401941	
11,506.000	273,335,040	248,486,400	24,848.6401943	
11.765,000	279,536,000	254,124,000	25,412,000
Now, Mr. Speaker, what has been the fate of this Heagerty report? In the first place, a draft bill was presented to the house under date of March 8, 1944. Essentially it was lifted bodily from the Heagerty report to which I have made reference. There were some changes in draftsmanship, but in the main it was essentially the same. What has happened to that draft bill? As far as I am aware, exactly nothing has happened. It has never even been read the first time to my knowledge. It never became a bill; it was only a draft. In the second place, I see from the minutes of the dominion-provincial conference of August, 1945, proposals were presented by the then Minister of National Health and Welfare, which are recorded on page 89 of that report. These proposals were as follows:
The specific proposals which the federal government wishes to put forward at this time for consideration by the conference include:
(a)	Grant for planning and organization;
(b)	Health insurance;
(c)	Health grants;
(d)	Financial assistance in the construction of hospitals.
It is believed that none of these proposals involves in itself any change in the constitutional jurisdiction or responsibility of federal or provineal governments under the British North America Act.
Time will permit me to discuss only one of these items, namely that listed as (c), "Health grants."
There was proposed at the conference the following, as it is to be found at pages 92 to 94 of this report. That included:
(1)	A general public health grant of thirty-five cents per capita annually on the basis of the population of each province;
(2)	A tuberculosis grant not to exceed $3,000,000 annually;
(3>
A monthly health grant not to exceed $4,000,000 annually;
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The Address-Mr. Massey

(4)	A venereal disease grant not to exceed $500,000 annually;
(5)	A crippled children's grant not to exceed $500,000 annually;
(6)	A professional training grant not to exceed $250,000 annually;
(7)	A public health research grant not to exceed $100,000 annually, and
(8)	A civilian blind grant, amount to be determined annually, to permit the lowering of the pension age for blind persons from forty to twenty-one years.
I do not question the value and desirability of these proposals in any way; quite the contrary. But I do wish to make comment at once in connection with Dr. Heagerty's report, on which those proposals were based. I wish to make it clear beyond peradventure that I am in no way criticizing the grants.
I was absent from Canada, on duty overseas, when the report was introduced; accordingly I have only recently had an opportunity to study it. First of all, I should like to say concerning it that it is an interesting academic piece of work. Second, it is statistically exhaustive and, in the third place, it is a report of real study, work and thought. Yet, with all deference to the now late Doctor Heagerty I am wondering if its practical conclusions in regard to cost are sound.
I say this, that his conclusions in this report, so far as I can gather, are arrived at mathematically, on a basis of population in its broadest sense, without reference to local conditions. That, Mr. Speaker, is an unsound basis. It is obvious to hon. members that if we have a community of one thousand here and, a hundred miles away, another community of a thousand, and another hundred miles away another community of a thousand, three health centres will be required to serve those three communities. But if you have three thousand people in one community, one centre will serve it. Therefore it seems to me that the reasoning Doctor Heagerty has employed to arrive at his figures is, as I have said, unsound.
There should be-and I address this to the minister-a study of individual communities as to local conditions, rather than mere statistics. Just as a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, so I say an insecure approach might be productive of ill rather than good effects.
Now, what happened to the proposals made to the dominion-provincial conference in 1945? Let the minister himself tell us, since he

reported to the committee of the whole in this chamber on June 28, 1946, as reported in Hansard at pages 3023 and 3024. These are his words:
At the dominion-provincial conference in August, 1945, the dominion government put forward a comprehensive programme for full employment, high national income and social security. The implementing of that programme is dependent upon agreements with the provinces, and those agreements have not been achieved.
And later:
The social security programme of the federal government remains part of the policy of this government, but how and when it can be implemented will depend upon the willingness of the provinces to work out agreements.
Thus, none of the suggested grants has ever been paid, nor the proposals implemented. So what is the position today? Let the speech from the throne tell us, when it states:
Once suitable financial relationships have been arrived at with the provinces, my ministers have undertaken to seek, in a general conference or otherwise, to work out satisfactory arrangements with the provinces in regard to public investment and social security measures.
So here we are today, apparently getting nowhere fast with these vitally important matters of national health and health insurance, because this government is so thoroughly enmeshed in the tangled skein of dominion-provincial relations.
It is unnecessary for any hon. member to remind me that any successful federal effort to raise the standard of the health of the nation presupposes workable, effective, cooperative relations between the federal government and the provincial governments. Also it is not necessary to remind any hon. member just how precious a thing provincial autonomy is, and provincial rights, how obnoxious to the provinces is federal domination.
But in this knotty, snarled, involved, echinated problem, are we to take the view that it is insoluble? The Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King), speaking here on Monday last, is reported at page 63 of Hansard as follows:
My hon. friend-
And he was referring to the leader of the opposition.
-this afternoon drew attention to the length of time that this parliament and the provinces have been discussing dominion-provincial relations. I say to him that if he thinks it has been a long time it is going to he a much longer time still before the dominion and provincial governments will _ cease to discuss with each other the respective powers which they have, and what they would like to have done, because

The Address-Mr. Massey
that is one question which is likely to continue so long as there are provinces and a dominion to consider them.
Surely, Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister of this country does not present this as an argument to excuse himself for a situation which now exists, and which is of his creation.
I should like to refer for a moment to an unimpeachable Authority of two thousand years ago Who said, "The poor ye have with you always." If we were to follow the Prime Minister's reasoning in the statement I have just read we would never give any thought to the underprivileged and the destitute. No, Mr. Speaker, the problem is soluble, and I make this statement guardedly with particular reference to health matters.
Let me refer to the recent action taken by the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Martin) by way of illustration. Hon. members, and Canadians generally, are vividly aware of the scourge of cancer, not only in Canada, but around the world. In this country in 1921 there were 6.153 persons who died from cancer, while in 1944 there were 14,271 who died from this dread disease. That is an increase of 131 * 9 per cent. Let not hon. members say that the increase was occasioned by the increase in population, for the rate of death from cancer in 1931 was 92-4 per hundred thousand, w'hereas fourteen years later, in 1944, it was 114-3 per hundred thousand, or an increase of 21-9 per cent in just fourteen years.
Cancer being one of the three leading causes of death in Canada, it is only natural that many agencies are at work on research. There are throughout Canada a multiplicity of laboratories and other such institutions doing splendid work in the field of research. There is, as I have said, a multiple number of wellmeaning organizations. These organizations up to the present time have been waging virtually an individual war against cancer. There has been no coordination of effort. It is obvious that the result is that the progress of the work has been retarded. Laboratory A does not know what laboratory B is doing and may be repeating again and again unsuccessfully what laboratory B has done successfully months before.
Research is not a top secret in this realm. The world is waiting for the one who can find the cause, and thus the cure and prevention of cancer. No one cares where the location of discovery may be, whether it is in Nova Scotia, in New Brunswick, in Texas, in Lancashire or in New South Wales. Surely there should be at least a coordination of Canadian effort.
Second, hon. members will recall the excellent effort put forth in the past few years under the King George V cancer fund when upwards of $800,000 were raised to fight cancer. Although I cannot speak with authority, perhaps the minister will agree with me when I say to the house that that money is still virtually intact and available, that it has not been expended.
Realizing these two points, the minister got in touch with all the leading agencies and scientists across Canada who were actively interested in cancer research.


Mr. MARTIN:: And in public education.


Denton Massey: And in public education. The result was that a conference was held in Ottawa on January 27 and 28. Although the report of the proceedings of that conference has yet to be released, I understand from many sources, including the public press, that it was an excellent meeting in every way and highly successful. At long last there is to be a coordinated effort of all cancer research in Canada through a central body already constituted in Ottawa, this body being set up, as I understand it, with the unanimous accord of the minister's cancer conference. I say without any hesitation that the minister is to be commended most highly and heartily on this all-important and significant step.
I say "significant" for two very good reasons. First, a major federal contribution to a programme of national health in the realm of research has been made by the minister. Second, the minister did not adopt a policy of "wait and see" in this matter. He has just recently become Minister of National Health and Welfare and within a matter of days after becoming minister he set in motion the machinery to call this conference. He did not hesitate to hurdle all the previous obstacles in one light-hearted'jump. He was not satisfied with pious vaporings about what should be done by the provinces or what has not been done by the dominion; he took action. So I say that the word "significant" applies in connection with the minister's cancer programme.
Can it be that this is the first step toward an active all-embracive national health programme? Now that the first step has been taken, the minister can take others more rapidly. He can go all the way and not have to "wait and see" in other allied matters pertaining to the present and future health of this nation. Further, too, I believe I am correct in stating that the minister, who has so recently assumed his new portfolio, has

The Address-Mr. Massey

just appointed a new director of social services, again indicating his desire to take further forward steps.


Paul Joseph James Martin: And also social insurance studies.


Denton Massey: Yes; also social insurance studies. It is therefore with some hope of action that I again bring this matter of national health before the house today.
At last we have witnessed, and at long last, this beginning, even if in only one limited field, of what I earnestly hope becomes-I urge the minister to make it so-a great coordinated national programme to be worked out with all the provinces to raise the standard of the health of the people of Canada.
I conclude by making the strongest possible appeal to the minister to leave no stone unturned, to accept the challenge so clearly before him. Let him convene, in various groups if necessary but better in one body, all those parties in every province who are responsible for the care of public health: the provincial ministers of health, their deputies and whomsoever they desire to have associated with them, medical health officers from the larger and more important communities, members of the Canadian Medical Association and any other interested groups from coast to coast. Have them called together with all the cards face up on the table, so that they may face up to the whole question of national health and health insurance as we faced the war, that is, face this matter as a national emergency because that is just what it is.
I cannot conceive of any such group, if all the facts are made clear to it, obstructing or attempting to obstruct for any petty, partisan, professional or parochial advantage any such national plan designed to raise the standard of health and to ensure the continuance of that standard. I am not suggesting centralization of authority or domination by Ottawa, which are so much anathema to every province. I am the last to suggest a diminution of provincial autonomy. But I do feel in this whole matter which I have discussed tonight that the federal Minister of National Health and Welfare can be the protagonist, the coordinator, the spark plug if you will, of a national health machine composed of nine integral parts, all working smoothly together to deliver maximum power to this nation.
My last words to you tonight are similar to those which I used nearly eight years ago when I spoke on this subject. The challenge

is clear; the way is clear; medical science is ready and willing to do its part; Canada has waited long for this government to act. Let the government accept the challenge!


Mr. J. H. MATTHEWS (Kootenay East):: Mr. Speaker, like those who have preceded me in this debate I wish to express by appreciation of the efforts put forward by the mover (Mr. MacNaught) and the seconder (Mr. Cournoyer) of the address in reply to the speech from the throne. Their speeches indicated careful preparation and they both deserve equal credit. I have studied carefully the speech from the throne and I do not find in it very much about the matters which I wish to bring before the house tonight. However, I am fully convinced of their importance; otherwise I would not be taking up the time of parliament as I am. I assure you that I shall speak briefly and to the point.
For the past two sessions of parliament I have been a member of the standing committee on mines and resources. To my knowledge, this committee has not been called together to discuss matters pertaining to this department. I have high regard indeed- for the Minister of Mines and Re-' lurces (Mr. Glen) and I sincerely hope that under his administrative capacities this department will move forward to great things.
In the constituency of Kootenay East which I have the honour to represent there are two of Canada's loveliest national parks, the Kootenay national park and the Yoho national park. Other members who have national parks in their constituencies may question this claim that these two parks are the two loveliest parks in Canada. But that can only be because they have not seen them. The Divine Creator, when he was finishing off His work so far as British Columbia is concerned, had a lot of loveliness left over, so He lavished it with a prodigal hand in the areas I have mentioned. For sheer breath-taking, aweinspiring beauty I do not think there is anything in the world to equal it. As we contemplate these works of God we can only stand in reverent wonder. It is when we come to the works of man in these park areas that our wonder diminishes and adverse criticism creeps in. and not without foundation.
At great expense to the Canadian taxpayer hundreds of miles of splendid hard-surfaced roads have been constructed from the United States boundary at Kingsgate to the entrance to the Kootenay national park at Radium Hot Springs; also from Calgary, Alberta, to the famous Banff national park and thence into the Yoho and Jasper national parks. But once

The Address-Mr. J. H. Matthews
we find ourselves inside the Kootenay national park, the road ceases to be splendid. Broken surfaces and potholes have developed and visitors emerging from the park at Radium Hot Springs have often been heard to say: Never again-referring to the roads and to camp conditions generally. Of course at Banff and at Lake Louise the Canadian Pacific Railway Company have splendidly appointed hotels which cater to the rich and well-to-do. The more humble citizen of Canada who also has an eye for beauty must content himself with the few scattered camps and tourist cabins that can be found' in the park. It is not enough to say that these are crudely and rudely built. The park regulations, I am told, do not permit of better structures being erected. For instance, lining of the walls of these cabins is not permitted. The rough scantlings of both walls and roof must show. Partitions to provide separate rooms may not be installed, and even though an excellent stream may run past one of these cabins the owners may not harness that stream to provide electric light for their patrons, who have to be content with the old-fashioned smelly coal oil lamps. One of my constituents a few years ago spent over SI,500 in installing an electric light generating plant beside one of these mountain streams in the park. When it was within a few days of completion he was informed that park regulations did not permit him to have any such installation, and that work has been at a standstill from that day to this.
A park telephone of sorts exists for the use of the park wardens, but this service is not available to the visiting public. I believe, sir, that this telephone system should be extended and made available to people who are passing through the parks, in case of illness or accident.
While on this subject, I want to ventilate another grievance. People in my constituency who live near the Kootenay park area would like to know why it is, after having had to pay taxes to maintain these parks, they are not allowed to truck their perishable products through the parks, and others want to know why the roads through the parks cannot be kept open all the year round, which would enable them to reach the city of Calgary more readily and to participate in skiing and other sports that can be enjoyed in the national parks.
Another of my constituents who resides in the Columbia valley and whose name I need not mention here last fall wanted to get a
piece of machinery from Calgary, about 170 miles distant, through the park. The road, however, was closed, so that he had to drive south and then east through the Crowsnest pass, many hundreds of miles farther. When this man had travelled well over 200 miles he found the southern road blocked by snow and he had to return these hundreds of miles back to his home again, the purpose of his trip unfulfilled. I point out that at that particular time there had not been a very heavy snow fall in the park summit, and had the road through the park been kept open he could have made the trip with entire satisfaction.
Facts such as these could be multiplied many, many times. The people say that no real consideration is being given to the maintenance of these roads through our national parks.
In bringing these matters to the attention of the government, I want to make it quite clear that no one in the area is blaming the present Minister of Mines and Resources for these conditions, but I would certainly advise him to make a trip through these parks at his earliest convenience, and not accompanied by any superintendent or park official. Let him go through the parks and see the conditions just as other people see them. People who know the situation in that area do not hesitate to say that many of these park officials have had cushy jobs for a long time and that they do not want to stir or be pushed to do any more than they have done in years past. In the meantime the tide of visitors to these parks as a result of publicity campaigns, is I believe, steadily swelling. About the middle of October last I visited the entrance to the park at Radium Hot Springs. At that particular time over 9,700 persons had paid $2 each for a permit to enter the park at that point with their cars, and many who were using a trailer had paid 83. In addition, Greyhound buses hauling 18 and 25-passenger loads were paying $8.10 and $11.25 respectively for one-way trips. At that time also over
50,000	persons had paid twenty cents each for the privilege of bathing in Radium Hot Springs pool, plus a further payment for the use of a towel and a bathing suit. I would remind the house that these figures do not take into account the many thousands who paid a similar fee at the Banff and Yoho entrances. Our national parks are becoming big business and they need to be run on modem business lines.

The Address-Mr. J. H. Matthews
Now just a word about the personnel at the bottom, the men. who do the dirty work, the work of cleaning up and maintaining the parks. What of their working and living conditions? I am not speaking now of the depots which I have not visited, but I want to say a word especially about conditions at the Radium Hot Springs entrance. The machine shop, where necessary repairs to road machinery are effected, and the stores warehouse, are buildings which are fairly adequate to their needs; but the men's camp is decidedly unworthy of this or any other government. The kitchen and cooking facilities and the sleeping quarters for the men who have to reside there are far from what they ought to be. Labour, I understand, is rated at fifty-five cents an hour, which no doubt accounts for the scarcity of labour. I am also told that rank discrimination is practised'. For instance, park workers at Banff and Field get overtime pay; whereas the men at Radium Hot Springs do not get paid for overtime which they work. Believe me, it would be very interesting indeed to know why. I am concerned about these matters because our parks' heritage is a grand and glorious one. Their matchless beauty alone should challenge anyone and everyone not only to preserve them but also to make them available for rich and poor alike. As I have said before, we have spent huge sums of public money on the construction of highways leading to these beauty spots. Let us then go forward and develop them and remove the causes of adverse criticism. In these remarks I am merely calling attention to the weak spots in order that constructive remedies may be applied.
I am more than delighted to know that in the speech from the throne reference is made to an amendment to the Old Age Pensions Act. During the parliamentary recess I have been asked many times whether the government was going to do anything with regard to increasing old age pensions. In each case I have replied that, while I did not set myself up as a prophet, yet I personally believed that t'he government would do something along these lines at this session. I am glad to know that my judgment was correct in that regard. The question now is, how far does the government intend to go. There has been such an outcry from Canada's old age pensioners from one end of the country to the other, and necessarily so, that it is difficult to see how the

government can be anything else but generous to this needy class. I am sure it is the wish of the great mass of Canadian taxpayers that the government should be generous to our old age pensioners. The cost of living of these people, as of all others, is steadily rising and life bears hard upon them at a period when the3r have every right to look forward to a time of comfort, rest and contentment.
I am utterly opposed to wasteful expenditures on the part of any government department, but here is one place where the spirit of humanity can and must be emphasized. Canadian hearts have felt very deeply for the suffering people of Europe and1 of Asia. Let it not be said that we are so concerned about the needy ones in far-off lands that we cannot see and appreciate the needy here at home.
We of the C. C. F. group are asking that the government shall pay at least 150 a month to our old age pensioners at the age of sixty-five without any humiliating means test. I may say that if the cost of living advances much higher we shall unhesitatingly raise our sights so far as this needy group of people is concerned.
I should now like to refer to another matter in which I am deeply interested and about which I have previously spoken in the house, namely the matter of penal reform. The Nelson Daily News of British Columbia in its issue of January 29 printed a news item from Sarnia, Ontario, with which I take strong issue. It is as follows:
Denounces plan for penal reform.
Sarnia, Ontario, January 28. (CP)
Criticism of proposals for penal reform which would make jails and penal institutions in Canada "too comfortable", and a declaration they must always be considered places of punishment were contained in the charge of Mr. Justice E. R. Chevrier to the grand jury at the opening of the winter assizes here yesterday.
I personally, and I am sure others who think as I do along the lines of penal reform, have no thought or desire to make our prisons and penal institutions too comfortable; but I certainly do not accept the declaration that they need to be places, or considered to be places, of punishment. Rather they need to be places of reform, places in which really redemptive work can be carried on. To my way of thinking, the idea of punishment occupies too large a place in the official mind.
During the parliamentary recess I took the opportunity of visiting Great Britain after an

The Address-Mr. J. H. Matthews
absence of thirty years. In passing, I may say I flew both ways and thoroughly enjoyed the courtesy and the safety provided by our Trans-Canada Air Lines system. While in Britain I mingled business with pleasure in that I took the opportunity of visiting a number of British prisons and penal institutions for the purpose of comparing their system with our own.
There are those in Canada who think and speak of Britain as being decadent and played out. They say that she is no longer a factor in world affairs. When these things are being said, such people are either expressing wishful thinking or revealing an abysmal ignorance of the real facts of the situation. My study of the British penal system leads me to say most emphatically that they are far and away ahead of Canada in their handling of criminals.
I realize that here in Canada we have a dual prison set-up, both provincial and federal, whilst in Britain they have a single system under an all-comprehensive prison commission. While in London I had a long interesting interview with Mr. Fox, head of the British prison commission, and from him I received authority to visit as many of His Majesty's prisons as my time would permit. I know it is not necessary that I should enter into the details of the places I visited, but I was particularly anxious to see something of the much-talked of Borstal system, and I was able to gratify my wish. I would be very much happier if we had such a system at work here in Canada on a federal scale.
In the speech on penitentiaries which I gave to the house on June 21 and June 27 of last year I referred to the decision of Attorney-General Wismer of British Columbia to reestablish the Borstal home at New Haven in British Columbia. Mr. Wismer also visited Great Britain recently. He, too, has seen the Borstal system at work and he is prepared to give to British Columbians the benefit of that system. I should like to say here that in this particular work he has my unqualified support.
For the benefit of those to whom Borstal may be but a name let me hasten to explain that the Borstal system is based on segregation, something entirely unknown in our Canadian prison system. For the benefit of Mr. Justice Chevrier, let me say that boys entering some Borstal institutions in Britain to serve a sentence of three years or so are given every liberty short of being free to go home at will. They are assured that they are not being sent to this particular institution to suffer three years of punishment but to have a three-year
opportunity to learn how to live and how to act as decent citizens. Not punishment but reform and redemption; these are the aims of the British prison commission.
In my hand I hold a small booklet entitled "Prisons and Borstals". It is a statement of policy andi practice in the administration of prisons and Borstal institutions in both England and Wales. The foreword, written by the Right Hon. Herbert Morrison, M.P., Home Secretary from October, 1940, to May, 1945, contains this statement:
The harm done by crime is caused by a comparatively small number of people; but if harm is done by wrong methods of punishment the whole community is answerable.
Turning to page 32 of this booklet, I find the principles underlying Borstal training set forth as follows:
That young offenders ought not to be sent to prison so long as that course can by any means be avoided is axiomatic, but a time comes for some of them when training under detention appears to be essential if they are not to drift into the ranks of persistent offenders. The object of the Borstal training is the all-round development of character and capacities moral, mental, physical and vocational, with particular emphasis on the development of responsibility and self-control through trust, increasing with progress. This conception requires conditions as unlike those of a prison as is compatible with compulsory detention. Responsibility and self-control are virtues which can only be attained by practising them and they cannot be practised without opportunity for self-determination appropriate to the stage of development reached.
This is indeed a lofty conception. It is an outgrowth of deep thought, the result of wrestling with a problem that confronts both Canada and Britain alike.
Certainly hardened criminals must be punished for their crimes; but far better that we should pay closer attention to the environment in which the young life is lived, far better that we should adopt a strong policy of segregation, the success of which has been amply demonstrated in the use of the Borstal system, and thus permit Canada to place herself in line with those other far-seeing countries whose purpose is to redeem rather than to punish the criminal.
The following table indicates the percentage of success achieved in recent years by the Borstal system. It gives the position at the end of each year of those who had been discharged from the institutions not less than two years earlier.
It will be noted that if those who are reconvicted once and then apparently settle down are included as potential successes, it may fairly be said that out of every ten
1SS

The Address-Mr. J. H. Matthews
persons discharged, some seven or eight appear to be restored to good citizenship. The figures for girls are similar, though slightly less favourable.
Mr. Speaker, in order to save time may I ask
for permission to have these figures printed in Hansard at this point in my address. It is a very short statement:
Borstal Statistics (Males)
Five-year total percentages as at 31st December of each year in column 1
1 Position as at 31st December of year:	2 Discharges during years	3 Not Reconvicted Per cent	K Reconvicted-Per cent	
			Once only	Twice or more
1936	1930-34	53-8	24-3	21-91937	1931-35	56-1	22-6	21-31938	1932-36	57-7	21-4	20-91939	1933-37	59	20-4	20-61940	1934-38	62-4	19-3	18-31941	1935-39	63-5	20-1	16-41942	1936-40	60-7	20	19-31943	1937-41	58-9	20-3	20-8
The figures above show indisputably the tremendous value of the Borstal system in the reclamation of young lives. Here in Canada we have no such good results to show. On the contrary, our Department of Justice reports show a steady increase in recidivists. This in itself is a terrible indictment of our Canadian penal system.
I realize that my voice may be somewhat a lone one crying in the wilderness, but I have faith to believe that some day in the not too far distant future an awakened) public opinion will demand a change in our penal system and the establishment of up-to-date Borstal institutions equipped to reclaim and redeem those of our youth who have fallen by the wayside.
May I say, in closing, that I was glad to hear from the Minister of Mines and Resources (Mr. Glen) when he spoke briefly on immigration yesterday, referring to additional groups who are now free to enter Canada by virtue of order in council P.C. 371, which has recently been passed. It would appear that the pressure of criticism of the government's immigration policy is beginning to have effect.
The question of immigration will bulk larger in this country as time goes on, because Canada definitely needs a larger population. Our railways and public buildings and their staffs are all adequate for a much larger population. The question is, where are they to come from? We talk of a selective immigration, but no one has yet defined for us what the word selective means. It seems to me that every person one talks with has a different interpretation of his own. Canada needs immigrants, but while we tarry to make up our minds whom to admit, other commonwealth countries are getting them.

There are, I know, those who think Canada will receive a great tide of immigrants from the British isles. But let me point out that Great Britain is not the overflowing fountain into which we have dipped in the past. Today Britain is passing through a definite labour shortage of her own and is actually importing labour for her mines and other industries. It is to Europe that we must look for our new Canadians. Screen them by all means, but let us not forget that the people who came to us from these European countries in past years have proved in the main to be good citizens, as recent speeches on1 this subject have shown. I believe, sir, that we can serve Canada well and help to alleviate the sufferings of Europe by giving sanctuary to thousands of her refugees.
Mr. HAROLD W. TIMMINS (Parkdale): Mr. Speaker, I rise in my place for the first time as the representative for Parkdale. At the outset I should like to convey my congratulations to the mover and the seconder of the address, more particularly to the seconder, for he had the unique distinction of being presented to the house and making an address to the house on the same day.
Parkdale has in the past sent to this house many worthy representatives, with most of whom I was acquainted. Some hon. members may recall A. Claude MacDonnell, K.C. After that came Mr. Mowat, later Mr. Justice Mowat. Following that, the constituency was represented by Mr. Dave Spence, who was in this house for a good number of years, and latterly Parkdale was represented by Hon. Doctor H. A. Bruce, whose voice was often heard in this house and who had a reputation here for forthright speech. Doctor Bruce

The Address-Mr. Timmins
served the constituency of Parkdale and the people of Canada well. He is an outstanding and distinguished Canadian as we'll as a surgeon in the front rank. The people of Park-dale will not soon forget Doctor Bruce and his gracious wife.
I am happy to be the representative for Parkdale following such illustrious predecessors, because I have lived in the district almost my entire lifetime. There are those on the other side of the house who probably are not so happy at my being here, and who certainly did what they could to leave me where I was. It was said quite openly on the hustings in Parkdale by the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply (Mr. Howe) that they were looking for cabinet material in Parkdale, and of course I came to the conclusion that somebody on the treasury benches would have to move over. However, the good people of Parkdale have decided that question for us all, and I presume nobody will have to move over. However that may be, I must say that I appreciate the courtesies I have received from all sides of the house, and I must add that it is heartening to a new member to be greeted so warmly by hon. members as he goes about the house for the first time. At this time I should like to express my best wishes to the other three members who came into the house with me on January 30 last. Already we are in our second month here in parliament. I trust that each of us in his own way may be of service to his community and to this parliament.
In compliance with the splendid example set by the mover of the address, I intend to limit myself tonight, and my speech will be brief.
First of all, I should like the house to bear with me for just a few moments while I give hon. members a word picture of the electoral district of Parkdale. It is a long-settled district on the western extremity of the city of Toronto, bounded on the south by lake Ontario. Perhaps I could better explain the position of the district if I say it is right in the environs of the Canadian National Exhibition. Parkdale is essentially a district of homes, but we have as well a good sprinkling of industry, so it may be said that employment in Parkdale is always at a high level. It is a district of churches. We have in that district probably thirty churches of every creed and religion, serving our community. In the last twenty years we have been blessed with a good number of new Canadians, Czechoslovakians, Ukrainians, Poles and those of other races, who have made grand citizens and neighbours in the district.
It was very heartening a short time ago, when we had citizenship week throughout the country, to see the number of meetings being held by these new Canadian gtoups, and it was a pleasure to be with them at the time of their celebration because they really appreciate their citizenship in this good country of Canada.
I listened with a good deal of interest on Thursday last to the speech from the throne, and I have read it over a number of times since. It would be presumption on my part, as a new member, to try to say what a speech from the throne should contain; yet as a new member I am constrained to say that the speech did not contain much in particularity to inform hon. members as to what the government proposes to do in 1947. I intend to devote most of my time this evening to an analysis of one paragraph in the speech from the throne, which reads:
Progress is being made in overcoming the shortages in building supplies, thereby accelerating the provision of additional housing. Despite all obstacles, the number of housing units com-
Eleted in 1946 approximated the objective set y the government. The cooperation of provincial and municipal authorities greatly contributed to the provision of emergency shelter.
Reading that paragraph, which has to do with the production of homes in Canada, I was surprised to find the wording almost [DOT] entirely in the past tense. It is very good to know what we did in Canada in regard to housing in the year 1946, but it seems to me a great deal more important to find out what we are going to do about housing in Canada in 1947. We must take it, then, that the government's building programme for 1947 is simply a hangover from 1946.
To start off with, the matter of housing is a federal problem, and it divides itself into two kinds of housing, both of which are mentioned in the speech from the throne; emergency housing and permanent housing. With respect to emergency housing, I must say that the government was very slow in the uptake in assuming its duties and responsi-oilities in the early days of the war when this matter of emergency housing first became acute. The government was too prone to leave the matter on the doorstep of the various municipalities. As a member of the council of the city of Toronto may I say we found that the city was submerged by a great number of people coming in from the outside. We were glad to have them, and we made up our minds that no matter why they came, we must look after them. They came there in the first place to work on munitions, and brought their families with them. Then there were the soldiers who came in with their families,
The Address-Mr. Timmins

leaving their families there when going overseas. Then there were the soldiers who came back from overseas and brought their families to the city. In some cases there were people who came looking for jobs and others through no fault of their own were evicted from their homes and had to be looked after. In all cases we endeavoured to do what we could, but I must say that our mayor and board of control wore the rails smooth between Toronto and Ottawa, coming here to ask for assistance with respect, to these matters.
I am glad to say that, as time went on, assistance was forthcoming from the federal government, which helped us provide emergency shelter; bnt the problem is still very acute. It is true that provision has been made, along the way, to house families in reconverted soldiers' barracks, in reconverted apartments, in former army camps, in former munitions plants, and in some instances in hotels, at great expense. But of course this is only a temporary expedient, and the federal government must assist the municipalities to overcome, in time, these emergency and unnatural conditions. It is unnatural and unjustifiable that families should have to live in these houses and temporary quarters where there is little privacy, and where home life and family life is greatly disturbed and encroached upon. In the old days in this land the people had independence of spirit and privacy in their home life, but these emergency housing conditions have certainly knocked the props from under their independence and privacy. In my view, these housing conditions tend to break down the family spirit and to imbue people with a feeling that they have become wards of the municipality or of the community, and are entitled to be protected and legislated for, for all time to come. In my opinion, Mr. Speaker, that is certainly not in the best interests of the community or the individual. Therefore, while a good amount of emergency housing has been provided, new problems are arising daily, and just as soon as possible this government must help to get these families out of the conditions under which they are now living.
The other field is permanent housing. In 1944 the government knew a housing condition was arising. There were many reasons why, in 1944, but I do not propose to go into them here. It was clear at that time that sufficient houses were not being built to keep up with the requirements. But the reason in those days was a little different from the reasons which we now have in this year 1947. At that time

manufacturers had the raw materials to make bricks and cement blocks, and to turn out the lumber, but they did not have the man-power.
We in the city council of Toronto got in touch with the federal authorities. I was asked to prepare a brief stating the minimum requirements of the building industry to provide houses in Toronto and suburban areas. That brief was prepared, and we met with the members of the national selective service board, telling them what our minimum requirements were. They were 150 men, only, in the brick industry, so that bricks might be supplied; 150 men in the concrete block industry, so that concrete blocks could be supplied, and about 75 men in the plumbing industry so that we might have bathtubs. As it happened, no men were supplied at all, and right there the building of houses in the city of Toronto and environs bogged down.
Let us face the facts. In 1946 sufficient houses were not provided even to begin to catch up with the needs of the country. Now we are starting into 1947 with the same plan we had in 1946, for the providing of homes. I say that the government has no real housing plan. Now is the time for a plan to be fully and effectually established, if we are to have the maximum housing that can be produced in Canada in 1947.
The speech from the throne says:
Progress is being made in overcoming the shortages in building supplies, thereby accelerating the provision of additional housing.
Let us see what the facts are. We have in this country at the present time under the National Emergency Transitional Powers Act a system of priorities operating in respect of building materials. We had1 a priorities system in building materials during the war, but it did not work and had to be discarded. In 1946, and following on into 1947 this priorities system has been revived. I believe hon. members are acquainted with the groups which get these priorities, but for the sake of clarity I should like to mention them again.
First of all, there is Wartime Housing Limited, which is a federal emanation. Then there is the Veterans' Land Act with houses built under its provisions. We heard something about houses built under the Veterans' Land Act when the hon. member for Lambton West (Mr. Murphy) spoke last evening. Then there is Housing Enterprises Limited, which is a crown company in which the life insurance companies have an interest. They are building a number of homes and apartment houses throughout Canada. Finally we have integrated building, the plan of which is, that

The Address-Mr. Timmins
the builder must build and sell to veterans, the prices at which he sells being more or less fixed.
These groups are all controlled by the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. These are the groups which are entitled to obtain priorities and to receive materials from the building supply houses. All other groups which build or which construct homes must scramble in the best way they can in order to get materials.
For example, in Toronto there are probably nine builders who build under the integrated housing plan, whereas there are probably 250 builders in that city who have to scrounge for materials in whatever way they can get them.
In the speech of the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) on Monday last we were told that the building objective for this government is 80,000 homes in 1947, which means that if the four groups named could produce, at the most, twenty per cent of these houses, the independent builders must find materials in whatever way they can to build 64,000 housing units. It seems crystal clear that there is very little government planning in an objective which has such a hit-or-miss method of control.
But there is another feature in respect of this matter of building homes, because commerce and industry has to be served, too. They are most active with respect to the construction of warehouses and factories, in addition to commercial premises. So that we find in Toronto in 1946 that twice as much industrial building was done as was done in respect of houses. Is there much planning there, with respect to homes where they are needed?
It seems perfectly obvious, therefore, that after these four preferential groups have been taken care of under their priorities for building materials, builders in the industrial and commercial fields, and builders of residential homes are in direct competition for materials to build houses and to build industrial plants. Last year the homes lost out, and very badly. There is not much government control in a situation like that!
During these winter months stock piling is going on in the lumber yards, brick yards, concrete-block yards and in plumbing supplies. All these materials are being held now for the groups which are to get the materials through priorities. I know of an instance in Toronto of a builder who has a block of homes of, we will say, between twenty and thirty, which are in various stages of completion; but because of the supply situation he cannot get material, although they are
staring him in the face in the yard. However, he cannot get materials because one of these other groups has a priority list, and the materials cannot be released.
I say that in this month of February', 1947, those houses which are incomplete should be completed, that a survey should be made in those various districts where the building of houses of that kind is now at a standstill, and that some governmental measure should be introduced to release the necessary materials for the potential houses, many of which are more than half completed.
When I discuss some of these matters with those in authority I am told that the matter of priorities is one of governmental policy, and it is for that reason I am discussing the matter here this evening. It was discussed last year, but I am saying, just as pointedly as I can-having had some connection with the building industry for the last twenty-five years -that this policy of priorities is stifling home building in Canada.
Now, at the beginning of 1947, is the time to make the necessary changes. I am satisfied the change which should be made is that the Department of Reconstruction and Supply should immediately get rid of this system of priorities. I am suggesting further that the government should assume the responsibility of determining what is, and what is not, essential building in every community, so as to give home builders an opportunity to raise their sights in respect of home building in this country in 1947.
I agree that there are many industrial projects which are necessary, and which must be classed as essential building. On the other hand, I believe that a formula could easily be worked out by the department which would indicate what is, and what is not, essential building, and that this formula should be handed on to the building superintendents and commissioners in the various municipalities throughout Canada, with a view to giving them a yardstick to which they must work. If that were done we would not find a situation such as we had in Toronto in 1946 when there was twice as much industrial building going on, as there was of homes.
In the United States, controls in the building industry have been taken off and, for the most part, priorities have been eliminated. I read now from a report of the National Association of Home Builders of the United States the largest association of its kind in that country. The report of December 18, 1946, states:
The home-building industry has said that removal of these controls was necessary so they could build more houses and complete them faster. In the brief time since the announce-
The Address-Mr. Timmins


Mr. GAUTHIER (Portneuf):: That is what is called a surprise gift!


Mr. RAYMOND (Beauharnois-Laprairie):: That address has a mover and a seconder.
Afterwards, they are paid an endless series of compliments. What they have said does not matter. It is customary to tender them congratulations. Later, the motion gives rise to one or many amendments and subamendments which open the way for a lengthy discussion, which lasts for weeks.
Well, Mr. Speaker, the custom of moving an address should, to my mind, be abolished. Such action would put an end to useless and costly discussions.
Besides, it would not deprive the members of the privileges they enjoy under the rules of the house. Thus, every Thursday, during the first four weeks of the session, is reserved for consideration of members' resolutions. A protracted debate on the motion for the presen-83166-13
tation of that address of thanks precludes the discussion of a large number of those resolutions.


Mr. MICHAUD:: That is true.


Maxime Raymond: You merely have to look at the order paper to find that it now contains forty resolutions on which we shall not be able to speak because we take up the time assigned to members to discuss the debate on the speech from the throne.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: That is true.


Maxime Raymond: These are the few remarks that I wanted to make and which, I believe, are in the public interest. I shall now refer to the amendment and the sub-amendment to the motion under discussion.
As regards the sub-amendment, I have two reasons for opposing it. First, because it advocates the application of a purely socialist doctrine which I cannot endorse. Today I shall confine myself to saying that I am opposed to any dictatorship, and that a state dictatorship, with its cumbersome bureaucracy, is no better than a capitalistic dictatorship. We believe, however, that while favouring in principle private enterprise in industry, the state should prevent the formation of cartels and unfair monopolies, or at least hold them in check.
Another reason why this sub-amendment should be rejected is that it includes the amendment moved by the leader of the official opposition (Mr. Bracken) which I cannot support.
Should the amendment be adopted, general elections would follow, and an important measure announced in the speech from the throne would be dropped. I refer to the measure providing for the readjustment of representation in the House of Commons in accordance with the provisions of the recent amendment to the British North America Act. Everyone knows that under the new readjustment measure the province of Quebec will have eight additional members, that is 73 instead of 65.
I feel that the leader of the opposition has moved his amendment at an inopportune moment. If it were passed, the province of Quebec would suffer a grave injustice by being deprived of a just representation in this house. Therefore, it will not have our support. Need I add, however, that our refusal to support the amendment moved by the leader of the official opposition does not mean that we have complete confidence in the present administra-

The Address-Mr. Gagnon

tion. We shall consider on their merits the measures which will be introduced and which we shall support or reject as the case may be.
This is the stand taken by our group which I intended to define clearly.


Mr. PAUL EDMOND GAGNON (Chicoutimi) (Translation):: Besides providing the
praise conventionally directed to the government at the opening of each session, the interesting speeches of the mover and the seconder of the address in reply gave us increased appreciation of the oratorical gifts of the hon. member for Prince (Mr. Mac-Naught) and made us admire the talents of the new member for Richelieu- Vercheres (Mr. Cournoyer). I congratulate them and hope that my hon. colleague from the province of Quebec will feel easier on Liberal benches than did his predecessor during his last years of life.
No country holds to-day a higher place in the esteem of the other nations
it is said in the speech from the throne about Canada.
That is why, no doubt, the special deputies charged with paving the way to final negotiations in the Council of ministers for Foreign affairs told our High Commissioner in London on January 14, that they did not feel able to give Canada the assurance that it would
. . . eventually discuss a peace settlement with Germany.
That is why again we were practically forgotten by those known as the Big Three and we were assigned a back seat at the time of the peace talks with Italy. No country ranks higher in the esteem of other nations.
A grandiloquent statement, that had a semblance of truth in the years 1939-1945 when we were being forced to help others gratify their ambitions, when more Canadian victims were being sought for the battlefields of Europe and Asia, when Canadians were making billion dollar gifts to countries richer than ours, when everything was being sacrificed for war and the government was distributing posters bearing the frightful words: "Nothing matters now but victory." Then indeed in the eyes of to-day's Big Three, who then seemed small, depressed and almost despaired, and whose vast needs could only be satisfied by the labour, blood and rationing of the Canadian people, then indeed "no country held a higher place in the esteem of other nations."
But to-day, when we would like to contribute a stone to the erection of the building which we worked to bring down, when it is a matter of dividing the spoils, when the time has come to claim gratitude and material

compensation in payment for our past liberality, when we wish to assert our rights and proffer our demands, although Canada, as the Right Hon. the Minister of External Affairs (Mr. St. Laurent) stated:
. . . contributed her resources of men and material without reserve, and no question of partial participation arose,
there is hesitation and we probably will be denied the role so dearly won by our epic struggle on all fronts.
However, had our delegates to the united nations conference, instead of getting tangled in Spanish affairs and clamouring against France, demanded representation at the peace conference charged with the drafting of the treaty with Germany, may we not believe that Canada would not, at present, be in the humiliating position of having to be satisfied with mere protests?
At the Paris conference, it was Mr. Evatt, Minister of External Affairs for Australia, who fostered the cause of small nations and demanded uniform treatment for all. Our delegates remained silent. We are now reaping the results of their inertia.
Sad, bitter sequence of events which goes to prove that artlessness, lack of foresight and maladministration lead to disaster and ruin.
Mr. Speaker, if one is to believe what the newspapers have reported, what, especially, the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) has stated, and what a single word in the speech from the throne seems to imply,_ the government intends to launch Canada in a policy of mass immigr'ation of the kind that, in the past, has had no beneficent results but has left nothing but a bitter memory.
This new attempt, no doubt, is meant to satisfy the demands of ship owners and public transport companies as well as the secret ambitions of imperialists and those who like fishing in troubled waters. As the hon. member for Dorchester (Mr. Tremblay) so well expressed it, on January 28, 1944, we have no faith in:
-"those moving contractors."
On February 2, 1944, the hon. member for Portneuf (Mr. Gauthier) strongly endorsed that statement. The policy was branded as "antinational" on January 22, 1947, by the editor of Le Soleil, the organ of the Liberal party in the province of Quebec, who added:
Despatches cabled from London indicate that the British government is willing to admit into Britain any foreigner able to contribute to the economic recovery, and that, on the other hand, they would have no objection to the emigration of those among their citizens who, on account of their inclinations or their age, are dependent on public charity. John Bull is thus giving a lesson in political economy which should be profitable to Canada. Of what advan-

The Address-Mr. Gagnon
tage would it be for a young nation to increase its present difficulties by welcoming outsiders who are dissatisfied with their lot? Canada has not yet found is possible to provide suitable shelter to all her repatriated veterans, to meet the requests of her labouring class, to open ,new markets for her farmers or to offer sufficiently well paid jobs to hundreds of thousands of seasonal unemployed. The idea of importing Scotch or Welsh miners is brought up at the very time when the Cape Breton miners rightfully complain about the conditions in which they live.
From the standpoint of Canada, the sole reason for the agitation in favour of mass immigration is that the transatlantic transport companies have not enough goods to bring from Europe to operate as profitably as in normal times. Should our national future again be jeopardized in order that the requirements of private interests might be met?
As far as I am concerned, as the representative of a constituency where the population is largely made up of working men, I shall oppose any plan whereby the entry into Canada would be granted to outsiders who might take the place of our workers and deprive them of their jobs.
The speech from the throne also tells us, among other things about the negotiations that have taken place and the taxation agreements vdiich have been concluded between the dominion government and various provinces since the last dominion-provincial conference.
Recently, the Right Hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) denied that he sought to jeopardize the autonomy of the provinces by subjecting them to his supremacy. The Prime Minister claims that provincial autonomy has never been threatened and censures the Quebec premier for having stated that Ottawa has violated every agreement, one at a time. Is it not true, however, and does history not prove that the dominion government never returned the provincial rights and prerogatives it had taken over although many of them were surrendered only temporarily?
Dominion government encroachments and centralization:
1890-Bills of Exchange Act.
1917-Federal income tax Federal sales tax.
1919-Bankruptcy Act.
1927-Imperial confiscation of Labrador.
1932 Canadian Radio Broadcasting Commission.
1934-Bank of Canada.
1936-Centralized harbours administration.
1939-	Central Mortgage Bank.
Suspension of provincial borrowing
power.
1940-	Dominion Unemployment Insurance.
1941-	Dominion Succession Duty Act. Sirois report, of federal inspiration.
83166-13i
1942-	Dominion tax on corporations.
1943-	Amendment to the constitution
against the will of Quebec, in order to avoid redistribution of electoral ridings.
1944-	Dominion Family Allowances, for
small families.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh! Oh!


Paul-Edmond Gagnon: Dominion Industrial Development Bank.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh! Oh!


Paul-Edmond Gagnon: The present method of bargaining is not very reassuring to the pioneer provinces. Quebec is justified in resisting. We must defend our rights and not sell them.	-	,
In concluding, I wish to thank the Minister of Transport (Mr. Chevrier) for the prompt attention he gave to my representations and those of the various public organizations of my riding with regard to the lack of freight cars for the shipment of paper manufactured at Jonquieres, Kenogami and Port Alfred. May I remind him also that the Canadian National Railways which serve our district do not give the service which a population of 160,000 may rightly expect. A substantial section of the present right-of-way needs to be rebuilt without delay and it should be greatly shortened. At present, the trip from Chicoutimi to Quebec City and vice versa is an over-night one although the distance is only 160 miles; further, travelling conditions are unbearable. I believe that in view of the substantial revenues which the C.N.R. derives each year from our district, revenues which will increase in future as a result of the development of our industries and the growth of our population, the expenditures entailed by this project would be entirely justified. It behooves the government to solve this urgent problem which I deem it my duty to bring to the attention of the house in a manner satisfactory to the people of the Chicoutimi district.


Mr. H. W. HERRIDGE (Kootenay West) (Text) :: I rise this evening for one purpose only, namely, to pay tribute in brief language to a man who was the friend of man. Mr. Speaker, I consider it my duty and a privilege to give expression to the sentiments of all the people of my constituency and the sentiments, I know, of hon. members concerning the passing of the late W. Iv. Esling in early December last.
The late Mr. Esling came to the Kootenays in the early days of mining in Rossland. He was not long in that community before his worth was recognized. When he first came
Tributes to Deceased Members

there he entered into the publishing business, publishing various newspapers in various parts of Kootenay West. From the days of his first arrival he took an active part in the community of Rossland and in the surrounding district, and it was soon found out that the late Mr. Esling was a friend of man. As the result of his interest in civic affairs and in his fellow human beings, he was nominated and elected to the provincial legislature, and in -that field served his constituents for some years. Later on he was nominated and elected to this house and, as many hon. members know, served the constituency of Kootenay West continuously for twenty years. The late W. K. Esling's record of public service for all and -to all, his kindness to all and his friendship for all will never be forgotten by those who had the pleasure of knowing him throughout the years.
I know, Mr. Speaker, that you will pardon a personal reference. I was a constituent of the late W. K. Esling during his twenty years of service in the house. As a constituent of his I had frequent occasion to have contacts with him in connection with business which concerned my own community, business which concerned the farmers of Kootenay AVest, business which concerned the veterans of Kootenay West, and on behalf of -the farmers of Kootenay West I want to say that they will never forget the interest the late W. K. Esling took in the welfare of -the farmers of -that district.
On behalf of the veterans of Kootenay West I want to express their sentiments and their feelings. They also will never forget -the strict attention always paid by the late W. K. Esling to the necessities of the returned man and to his requirements.
In addition to that, on two occasions the late W. It. Esling and I were political opponents. It is during an election campaign, possibly more than on many other occasions, that the true temper, the true character, and the true qualities of men are exhibited. In all the campaigns fought by Mr. Esling during the period of twenty years never _ once was he ever known to utter a personality or to say a slighting thing about an opponent.
I could give many interesting and illuminating illustrations of his kindness. In election periods we have a difficult country to travel in and I could tell you of his personal kindness and his assistance to opponents of all parties. Looking back to those campaigns, I remember him as a chivalrous gentleman in every sense of the word.
In brief, Mr. Speaker, I know that my constituents and those members of the house who knew the late W. K. Esling will say that he

was a good man, and I use the word "good" in -the old English sense as meaning that which is productive of happiness and springs from virtue. I know that all my constituents, regardless of political affiliations, and all hon. members of this house who had the pleasure of knowing -the late W. K. Esling, can join with me in saying:
When time, who steals our years -away, shall steal our pleasures too,
Fond memories ot his ways will stay and half our joys renew.


Mr. LIGUORI LACOMBE (Laval-Two Mountains) (Translation):: Mr. Speaker, I
wish, at the outset, to join my humble voice to those of my colleagues in paying a tribute to the memory of the former member for Richelieu-Vercheres, the Hon. Mr. Cardin, with whom I had been acquainted for more than twenty-five years. With so many others, I have many times applauded his eloquence, which was enhanced by a voice as resonant and clear as -crystal. When the splendid speaker he was uttered his heartfelt words, it was for those who heard him at the height of his oratorical power, a moment of rapture, a spectacle so fine, so delightful, that it can only be equalled by the sight of an audience enthralled by the love of beauty and grandeur.


Mr. FOURNIER (Maisonneuve-Rosemont):: Hear, hear.


Liguori Lacombe: Never more will our colleague hear the plaudits of his compatriots. But his memory and his work are unperishing. The party he has not only served but so often led to victory well knew that "the shadow of Cardin could still win battles". In the Richelieu-Vercheres by-election, much capital was made out of his brilliant career.


Sarto Fournier: Beware!


Liguori Lacombe: But it is extremely unfortunate that so worthy a man should have to enter the grave before receiving encomiums which he so richly deserved when he was alive. His successor in this hoiise is privileged and. knowing his inclinations and his talent, we augur for him a fruitful and brilliant career.


Sarto Fournier: Hear, hear.


Liguori Lacombe: As regards the hon. member for Pontiac (Mr. Caouette), I tender him deserved compliments for the poise and the pluck lie has shown in his excellent maiden speech in the house.
Mr. Speaker, the time has come to find a solution to our domestic problems. It is all very well to proclaim that we shall participate

The Address-Mr. Lacombe
in the international discussions relating to the peace treaties. But it is imperative that each and every one of the Canadian provinces should be restored its respective jurisdiction. It would be inconsistent to attempt to establish peace and order throughout the world while leaving full sway to injustice in our own country. Our first duty is toward Canada. In the discharge of that duty we should never forget the respective jurisdiction of the dominion and the provinces. Let us render unto all what belongs to them and let us respect the prerogatives of all. The powers of the provinces are defined by the constitution. Let us at least respect that charter of our rights. So many contracts have been torn to pieces. So many agreements are being scrapped in the world that it is worthwhile that we should respect our own constitution. The speech from the throne states that after prolonged conferences, agreement has been reached on certain peace treaties which the house will be asked to approve. Why not concur in a new dominion-provincial conference and come to this indispensable agreement in dominion-provincial relations? Conferences without number are being held abroad while Canada is being denied a third dominion-provincial conference. The time has come for each to assume once again its proper place in its own field. Let the provinces be restored in the full exercise of their rights. If it be true, as the speech from the throne puts it, that "the changeover from war-time conditions has proceeded rapidly," why does the federal government persist in levying taxes in a field reserved to the provinces?


Douglas Charles Abbott: It is not reserved to the provinces.


Liguori Lacombe: There is in the treatment handed the provinces an economic and social aspect that cannot be ignored. In claiming regard for the constitution, and the exercise of provincial jurisdiction, the prime ministers are discharging duties that are part of their responsibilities. Who can blame them for the discharge of their mandate when they uphold provincial rights guaranteed by the constitution? It is time we went back to normal living. "Many of the controls and restrictions in force during and immediately after the war are no longer in existence," states the speech from the throne. But there are no worse restrictions than those imposed on the exercise of provincial rights, in defiance of the constitution. They should be the first ones to go, because they set up injustice and create mistrust where, more than anywhere, mutual trust and good understanding should flourish. No wonder
there is so much friction in labour relations in this country, when the baleful example of mistrust comes from so high.
Strikes interminable have broken out in Canada, ruining in certain sections the worker's credit. They have slowed down the production of many essential commodities. They have been the greatest impediments to the development of our domestic and foreign trade. Due to the scarcity of building materials, there is an acute shortage of housing. Living costs are steadily rising. The worker feels it more than any other class of taxpayers. He is entitled to wages that will allow him to provide for himself and for his family. That is a social problem that we cannot and must not set aside. Everyone should receive a fair and reasonable reward for his labour. And that is why the government must unstintedly seek settlement of the conflicts between capital and labour, and treat, each party concerned with the greatest possible fairness.
I wish to take up another matter, for a moment. It is of interest to both producer and consumer. I refer to the withdrawal of the subsidy paid by the government to the milk producer. In spite of an adverse vote on this question at the last session, the government did not in the least follow the advice of the house.


Hervé-Edgar Brunelle: It is a provincial matter.


Liguori Lacombe: They withdrew from both producer and consumer a precious help at the very moment when they needed it most. My hon. friend tells me that this is a provincial matter. If the federal government assumed the responsibility of paying a milk subsidy, will my hon. friend admit that they have violated provincial autonomy? The withdrawal of the federal milk subsidy is unfortunate. coming at a time when every effort should be made to maintain it. It was both a necessary encouragement to the dairy industry and a help to the children and, the family. The government, who have made so many sacrifices in other spheres, could have earmarked a few million dollars annually for a highly humanitarian cause: child health and assistance to the dairy industry. I prefer a strong and healthy generation born in Canada to any kind of immigration, no matter how selective.
Since immigration is an item of the sessional programme, I come to it, without more ado. This matter has already provoked lively debate in this house. It has been studied from all its aspects. In view of what has occurred in the last few months, I say that we cannot be too strict concerning the physical and moral
The Address-Mr. Lacombe

I want to point out that our king is not merely a figurehead. Our king represents the people of this great united nations organization we call the British commonwealth. Our king does not represent the Liberal part}' or the Conservative party; he represents the people and the people alone. His representative is here in the person of our Governor General and the lieutenant governors in the provinces. Many nations hope that they can get a monarch similar to our representative, but they are finding that they cannot get one, once he is destroyed.
How is it possible to get from any one of our families a king to represent the people who is unbiased? How can we produce him? We cannot. If we ever lose our king, and I am certain we never shall, then this whole empire will break up and for thousands of years our people will become enslaved. Covetous eyes have been focused for many generations on this marvellous institution we call the British commonwealth of nations. We cannot avoid thinking how these nations making up the commonwealth have been associated with one another. They have grown up, not under any great plan, but naturally in their own way. There are tremendous differences in colour of skin, in race, in creed and in culture. So is it not marvellous that not one of us has ever thought of going to war with another member of the commonwealth?
Only this evening I was speaking to a naval officer who told me that there is no colour bar to anyone joining the British navy or the Royal Canadian Navy. No questions are asked, merely whether the man is a British subject and is loyal to the British commonwealth of nations. I have something here which I am proud to put on the record. This is a booklet called "The Sea Cadet Log." The director of the naval reserves here in Ottawa, Captain H. E. Pullen, wrote a short article for the boys in the sea cadets. This contains one or two simple sentences which I feel apply to us here in this house just as they apply to the boys in the sea cadets.
Before I quote this article I should like to point out that I am particulary interested in the navy because I was brought up beside the sea. Every male member of our family has been a seafaring man, serving either in the navy or in the merchant marine. I have had the privilege of travelling considerably on the oceans. Each member of our family had his particular duties to perform. No matter how stormy the night was, those who were capable had to go out in the lifeboats, a voluntary service, to rescue any sailors who were in distress at sea. This was a duty per-

formed by my older brothers and, as a little boy, my job was to take hot chocolate, which my mother prepared, down to the seashore to serve to the seamen as they were brought in. That was a simple duty taught to me as a little child. If all [DOT] Canadian citizens were taught the few simple duties outlined in this article by Captain Pullen then our country will go far toward peace, freedom and prosperity. Captain Pullen says this to these boys:
Nowadays it has become the habit to cry down such old fashioned ideas as "duty" or "discipline". They imply restraint, control of mind, tongue and body, respect for others and the art of "giving". In other words, to have a high sense of duty and discipline requires moral and physical courage. It isn't easy. We all fail at times. The secret is to keep on trying and never, never give up.
And later on:
Therefore, I pass on to the sea cadets this message: "Always keep in mind the promise you made when you joined the corps-have high ideals and stick to them."
That is what we all should have.
Remember you are a Canadian and live in a country w'hose future lies in your hands. Give of your best, and never think of how much there is in it for you. Develop your sense of duty and discipline; you can never lead until you have first learned to obey, and above all keep this motto in your mind, "Fear God, honour the King, do your duty."
There is a message for every one of us in this house because this parliament is being undermined. Unless we do something about it very soon I am certain this parliament is going to disappear and bureaucracy will take over control. Of course many people say, "It cannot happen here." They said in England, "It cannot happen here." They said in Germany, "It cannot happen here." But it happened. It happened in Russia, it happened in Germany and it happened in Italy where the people lost practically everything; they lost their souls. What a disgraceful state of affairs for any group of human beings to find themselves in, faced with poverty, wretchedness and growing insecurity. That terrible state of affairs was brought about because the members of their parliaments did not do their duty. Perhaps in the first place they never knew their duty. Our duty is what we were taught as children. The duty is taught us by Lord Jellicoe and followed by our great statesmen. Our first duty is to see to the welfare of the people of Canada, of our constituencies, the citizens whom we represent. That is our duty.
I said that it can happen here, and I am making this statement here now: It is happening right here. I think it wras perhaps a good thing that I was not here to stand on my feet

The Address-Mr. Ashby
and speak in this house last summer and last fall because I might have gone too far at that time. Two men came to my home. They apparently knocked on the door. I was busy, and the first thing I knew they were walking into the house. My wife came to me and I asked her, "Who are they?" She said, "I do not know. I opened the door and they walked in." "What do they want?" I asked. "I do not know," she said. I left my work-I was typing at the time-and went into the sitting room, and here they were walking in to meet me in my study, without having been invited in any shape or form. They said they were checking up the wealth of Canada and would like to ask me a few questions. "Certainly," I said, "where are you from?" They said they were from Edmonton and had come from the Department of National Revenue. They began asking me all sorts of questions. I told them, "I hire a chartered accountant to look after my business. Why don't you get his statement?" They said they would not accept any accounts but their own. "We make up our own statements." Instead of staying an hour or two hours or three or four or five or six or seven hours, they stayed the whole day, absolutely uninvited. Before they went they just threw me a paper saying, "Here is what you owe on your income." I took the thing and threw it in the fireplace.
After they had gone a woman neighbour came over, and she burst into tears when she got into our home. She told us that two of these men had been over to her house, had entered the home uninvited and would take no statements from her and her husband at all. They also hired a chartered accountant to look after their business, but these two men asked them all sorts of questions just as they had done with us. These neighbours of ours had saved up their money during the whole of their lives and just before the war they started to clear the land to build their home, but they did not get it finished, I think, until 1941. These men actually taxed them on that home which had been built with the savings they had been accumulating throughout their lives. Afterwards the husband broke down. The son who had been with him said, "Well, dad, I got no wages during the whole of the war and I worked from twelve to sixteen hours a day, and now I am finished." The son walked out of that home and I do not think he will ever return.
I drove to another neighbour's. Here was a man who could neither read nor write and so he employed a bookkeeper because the taxation officials demanded it. When they handed him his tax bill he could not understand it, and he actually gave them a blank 83166-14
cheque and said that he did not know of how much they had robbed him. When they had gone, what did he do? He discharged the help that he had; and he went to his barns and opened the doors and turned all his dairy cattle out into the stacks except one that he kept for himself, and he said, "As long as I live I shall not milk another cow to feed a bureaucrat."
I got home and my own boys were there. I said, "Sharpen up your pitchforks, boys. This may be a revolution. Clean up the barrel of your gun and keep it well oiled. We may have to fight yet for our homes and our farms right here in Canada, for this is the beginning of socialism."
My boys said, "Where will we get the money to pay this tax because we have not made any excess profits?" We had paid any income tax that was due. My boy did not receive wages. Any money that we had we put back into our farm because I told them from the beginning, "Boys, this is not my farm; it is not mother's farm. It belongs to us; it is our home, our farm, and our duty is to maintain and build up the fertility of this farm." We do not burn straw as some of these master-farmers have done in the past, but we bought equipment to work back fertility into the soil rather than destroy it. My boys asked, "Where shall we get the money to pay these taxes?" I said, "I cannot give you any more. If I give you any more from my indemnity I shall have to starve myself in Ottawa. I could, of course, eat in the cafeteria once a day and save a few pennies in that way, but if I put it back into the farm they would rob us of it." I said, "I am not going to do that any more. What have you got to sell? We shall have to sell something to pay these taxes." One boy put his arm around one of his calves and said, "They shall not take my cattle," and the other boy said, "They shall not take my sheep." I said, "Then the only thing to do is to sell the hogs." That was no laughing matter, because for twenty-five years I had been building up, I believe, one of the finest herds of bacon hogs in the Dominion of Canada. In fact, some years ago when I entered my hogs in the advanced registry tests I beat the whole of Canada including all the experimental farm entries at that time for the breed. That is true. I have the records and I would have brought them here if I had thought I was going to mention this matter tonight. I could bring grading slips showing every hog in the load grading A. So I went to the telephone, and when I hung up, every one of those hogs was sold, breeding stock that had taken us twenty-five years to build up-all that has gone-and not one hog'will be born

The Address-Mr. Ashby

on our farm until these taxes are removed. That is what I mean when I say, remove the restrictions on production. These taxes must be abolished and they will be abolished even though it may require another vote by the citizens of Canada against these bureaucrats.
So that when people think it is not happening here they had better change their minds because it is happening here.
I have a letter here which I received from these bureaucrats. It is addressed to me. Do they sign their names and say, "Your obedient servant"? Not at all. They are above all that. 1Ye, the sovereign parliament of Canada, mean nothing at all any more to these bureaucrats. Look at this. Here is a letter that any man can see. Does this bureaucrat sign his name? Does his salutation say, "Dear Sir"? Not at all. He says, "Take notice". Does he sign his name, "Your obedient servant"? Not at all. "Yours truly"? No. He just signs his name with a great flourish, the simple-minded idiot.
Some bureaucrat heard that I bought a little boat and so I got this letter. It says:
Information which has come to hand leads us to believe that you are the owner of a cabin cruiser on the west coast. Kindly advise the purchase price and date of purchase. A prompt reply is requested.
This is from a bureaucrat. Can you imagine it? I wrote back and I asked what authority they had for asking all these inquisitorial questions. They did not know, of course, so that they had to write to Ottawa to find out. A month later they sent me a long letter. None of these letters are signed. There is just a rubber-stamp on them and various initials. A bureaucrat never faces personal responsibility. He can always say, "Well, I did not know anything about it. One of the girls must have got my rubber-stamp". They are always shirking personal responsibility. They sent me this long letter and I discovered that they have sneaked acts around us that we know nothing about. They can actually go into any home and demand that a woman strip naked before them. That is true. They can demand to know how much they paid for every article of dress they are wearing and when they bought it. If they do not answer, what then? The act says that a person in default shall be liable on summary conviction to a penalty of not less than $25 for each day. Did we know anything about that? No, of course not. "It can not happen here." It is happening here.
These bureaucrats did not forgive me, because I left them standing at attention before that mythical and fabulous prime minister of mine last session. I did not

prorogue that parliament. I left those bureaucrats standing to attention with both hands cupped behind their ears, hon. members will remember. It may be that they are offended because I did not prorogue that parliament and dismiss them. I left them standing there ever since but I will dismiss them right now.
Hon. members will recall that the members of that fabulous parliament stated briefly and simply the results the people desired. Our prime minister, the Right Hon. Sir Bonehead Piltdown, turned toward these bureaucrats to give them instructions to devise ways and means of producing these results, when the most surprising thing happened. Who should step out of the ranks of those bureaucrats but the deputy minister of taxation, the very individual I should like to get my hands on, the very individual who robs the working man of his hard-earned wages, who robs the white-collared worker of his take-home pay, who robs the women and widows of their mites and the little children of their chocolate bars? If I ever get my fingers around his windpipe I will strangle him. He is walking right into my hands.
That bureaucrat, the deputy minister of taxation of that day, walked right by the prime minister. He did not even bow to the Speaker; he ignored the altar itself but gave the members of parliament a very extraordinary salute. He turned his back on them, scratched in the sand rapidly for a few moments, then shook each foot in turn at them and started to clamber to the top of the prime minister's boulder, at the same time exposing a very reputable part of his anatomy, to the delirious delight of the members present and amidst the most obstreperous titterings of the ladies who had gained vantage points thereabout. The policeman on duty found it necessary at that time to eject a couple of teen-agers who momentarily lost their self-control and shouted out, "hubba, hubba", which, I understand, means there is going to be something doing now.
Reaching the top of the boulder, this insulting deputy minister of taxation stretched himself to his full height of five feet, raised his hand; but instead of making a speech as was expected, sang the latest song hit of the day. "You no can do; you no can do, because the socialist London school of economics teaches us that you no can-" He never did reach that top note. Stretching his chickenlike neck to its greatest extremity, his Adam's apple fluttering like the feathers of a song sparrow singing to its mate in June, and treading about that boulder like a young rooster

The Address-Mr. Ashby
trying to learn to crow, he missed his footing and slid off into the arms of prime minister Bonehead who had stood below staring up at him in open-mouthed amazement, until a fly lit on his lower lip and, with a snap, promptly lost its life.
The members looked at one another with sober faces and then to the prime minister for advice and guidance. The prime minister merely winked at them, and then with the forefinger of his right hand extended while he held the struggling deputy minister of taxation by the throat in the crook of his left elbow, made circular motions around the poor fellow's cranium, whereupon they quickly led him off into the bush and clubbed him to death as a factious financial fanatic,
I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, to have had to kill this bureaucrat but I had no other alternative. The people of those days loved their freedom as only the people of this great British commonwealth will yet prove they love theirs. I could not put him into the penitentiary because there was nobody willing to sacrifice his freedom to look after such a man. Neither could I put him into an insane institution. I had no other alternative than to kill him. I see, Mr. Speaker, that my time is up.


Sarto Fournier: You still have ten minutes to name the people to whom you refer.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Go on.


Mr. ASHBY:: It may be noted that one skull, and the one skull only that was found in Sussex, was that of the prime minister. Archeologists and anthropologists are wearing their fingernails to the quick trying to discover the skull of a bureaucrat. I can assure them that they never will find one, because an autopsy performed upon the skull of this deputy minister of taxation, following his untimely demise, revealed the startling fact that it was extremely thin and was so chuck full of brains that it is a wonder it had not exploded. The pressure from within it was so great that it is no wonder these bureaucrats have swelled heads. They think they know it all. But the upper half of his skull was preserved for many years, for it was handed down by word of mouth it was used as a very lowly vessel placed on the floor under the desk of a common member of parliament, another custom followed even unto this day, and when I accidentally kick mine it reminds me of the significance of its origin.
But let us get back to this fabulous parliament. There is a moral in all this. The prime minister has his dander up now; for placing himself behind his official altar and facing
831G6-141
those bureaucrats he must have jumped fully eighteen inches off the ground, and brought his stone hammer down on that altar with such terrific force it broke the handle, the rock flew off, struck the deputy minister of national revenue in the pit of the stomach and knocked him cold. Revived, he again took his place, when the prime minister told him in perfectly plain English: "You know what the people want; now get going." And they went. Rather than lose their jobs and the pay that goes with them, they left no stone unturned in an effort to get back to their desks to devise ways and means of producing the results that the people wanted, and when the dust finally settled what a sight there was to behold! There were the prime minister's pet page girls lying about in a coma-comma, put a comma there-the doors were seen to have been wrenched off their hinges, and the policeman outside, that noble upholder of law and order, who knew his duty and did his duty on all occasions, was observed thirty yards away, sitting in the middle of the road in a dazed condition but clutching in each hand the breeches of a bureaucrat. The dogs of the neighbourhood could be heard1 in full cry as they rounded the corner into Main street, followed by the populace, whose "views halloo" would have awakened the dead and caused old John Peel to thrust his skull up through the turf and shout "whoopee".
The necessary acts were brought forth in rapid time and passed by all members of parliament, for at the bottom of each of these acts was the signature of the sponsor and individual responsible for drawing up that act, and beneath it was clearly shown this memorandum: "A penalty of ten years' hard labour will be imposed upon these individuals if these acts fail to produce the results which the citizens want." That, I believe, is the solution, and one which will put a crimp into all this law-making.
I have here a booklet entitled "Living Casualties", which was sent to me from England. It is published by the Farmers' Rights Association, 4 Shrewsbury Road, Church Stretton, Salop. It is dedicated to the memory of George Raymond Walden, aged sixty-five years, of Borough Farm, Itchen Stoke, Hampshire, who was dispossessed by the Hampshire war agricultural executive committee, a socialist committee. While defending his home, where he had lived all his life, and his father before him, he was gassed and shot to death.
They thought it could not happen in England. It is happening in England and it is beginning to happen right here. In this booklet is a photograph of a field of Timothy hay which this committee claimed was couch
Introduction of Bills

grass. You can see the farmer standing there, the hay well above his waist, about six inches below his shoulders. This book gives dozens of illustrations, one or two of which I should like to read. Here is a man who for twenty-one years managed the Duke of Westminster's home farm of 1,500 acres in Cheshire. This man founded the Shire-horse stud and pedigree herds of Shorthorn cattle, of pigs and flocks of sheep, winning many leading championships and prizes. He then took a farm of his own of 400 acres in 1926. It was in a very poor state and could not carry more than a few head of cattle. In five years it had seventy cows, 100 sheep and fifty pigs, all pedigreed, and won first and champion prizes at leading shows. The socialists said, "Out you go", giving him three weeks' notice to quit. The rent of the farm was raised after they got him out and it has since been sold for three times what it cost. Since that time this individual has been asked by the Basingstoke root and crop society to judge for them the very crops on the farm from which he was evicted.
Here is another farm carried on by Mr. Bell's father before him. The son was called into the army to serve overseas. Bell was aged sixty-seven and was ordered to quit. In despair Mr. Bell shot himself. That was on October 17, 1943.


James Horace King: The hon. member has spoken for over forty minutes.
On motion of Mr. Weir the debate was adjourned.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Friday, February 7, 1947