1947-03-05

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Hon. C. G. POWER (Quebec South) presented the first report of the special committee appointed to consider Bill No. 18, to readjust representation in the House of Commons, and moved that the report be concurred in.
Motion agreed to.


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On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. M. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Omtario):: I wish to address a question to the Minister of Finance, notice of which I have given him. I should like to ask him how much the estimates would have been increased beyond two billions if they had included the
Inquiries of the Ministry

amounts necessary to carry out the various offers which we understand he has made to the provinces.


Hon. DOUGLAS ABBOTT (Minister of Finance):: I received notice of the question just before coming into the house, and I shall have to make the necessary calculations and give the answer to my hon. friend later. The question is of course one that should be put on the order paper.


Mr. GRAYDON:: Thanks for the advice. Mr. ABBOTT: Then take it.



VETERANS AFFAIRS

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SUNNYBROOK. HOSPITAL-AVAILABILITY OF ACCOMMODATION FOR PATIENTS On the orders of the day:
Mr. DONALD M. FLEMING (Eglinton): I should like to address a question to the Minister of Veterans Affairs. Why are many beds allowed to remain empty at Sunnybrook hospital at the present time while many military patients under Department of Veterans Affairs care are accommodated at overcrowded civilian hospitals?
Right Hon. IAN A. MACKENZIE (Minister of Veterans Affairs): I received notice of the question just as I was entering the house and have ascertained since, from the director of treatment services, that there . are 200 vacant beds now in Sunnybrook hospital. The difficulty has been in obtaining the necessary staff but that has been overcome and the transfer will be made at the earliest possible time.


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On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. HERRIDGE (Kootenay West):: May I ask the Minister of Labour the following questions. First, is the minister informed of a reported meeting recently held by former members of the Polish corps now employed on farms in Canada, at which demands were made for release from the terms of the agreement under which these persons entered Canada? Secondly, is it the government's intention to insist upon the terms of this agreement being kept?


Hon. HUMPHREY MITCHELL (Minister of Labour):: I have knowledge of a meeting having been held by the persons referred to by my hon. friend. As to what they discussed, I know nothing. I did arrange for an officer of the employment service of the Department of Labour to attend that meeting. Owing to weather conditions, however, the report has 
not yet reached me. As to the second question, my hon. friend is well aware that any announcement of government policy will be made at the proper time.



PRIVILEGE


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On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. A. CRUICKSHANK (Fraser Valley) :: I rise to a question of privilege. The Ottawa Journal took care to criticize me for suggesting that the press gallery could not hear in this house, and I wish to refer to an article appearing in that newspaper on Wednesday, March 5. It is headed:
"We were left out," not "kicked out," St. Laurent said.
As a veteran member of this house I desire to make it perfectly clear that if there had been amplifiers in this house the press gallery would have heard that the statement was, "We were left out." The Canadian army has never been and never will be kicked out of any place in the world.


Gordon Graydon: You and the minister had better talk that over.



MR. POULIOT-PRESS REFERENCE TO MEMBER FOR TEMISCOUATA

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On' the orders of the day:
Mr. JEAN FRANCOIS POULIOT (Temiscouata):: Mr. Speaker, I rise to a question of privilege in reference to a statement that was made a week ago and a question that was asked of the cabinet ministers when each one was challenged to rise or to raise his hand if any one of them had said to a newspaper man that I was the implacable enemy of the government. I have two hundred witnesses that no one rose or raised his hand. Notwithstanding that, the correspondent of the Gazette has made this observation, "Several cabinet ministers did not seem to be convinced." I will answer that young man, who is not a mind reader, by a citation from Oliver Goldsmith:
But alas! your good worships, how could they be wiser,
When both have been spoil'd in to-day's Advertisert



FREIGHT RATES


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On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. A. TUCKER (Rosthern):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. The suggestion was made by the premier

The Address-Mr. Ross (Souris)
of Saskatchewan in the legislature there that the application by the Canadian National Railways for an increase in freight rates had the approval of the government. I should like to ask the Minister of Transport if the government was consulted about the Canadian National Railways' application for an increase in freight rates. If so, did it have their approval or consent in any way, shape or form?


Gordon Graydon: Order paper.


Hon. LIONEL CHEVRIER (Minister of Transport):: The application for an increase in freight rates was not made by the Canadian National Railways. It was made by the Railway Association of Canada on behalf of the railways. The government had no knowledge of the application, did not authorize it, and, I am in a position to say to my hon. friend, was not consulted in the application made by the railway association to the board of transport commissioners.


Gordon Graydon: But is the government against it?


An hon. MEMBER:: That is another question.


Lionel Chevrier: Let my hon. friend ask the question.



REQUEST FOR TEST OF ACOUSTICAL PROPERTIES OF CHAMBER

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On the orders of the day:
Mr. DANIEL McIVOR (Fort William):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works. I should have given him notice, but as he is a man of resources, he does not need it.


An hon. MEMBER:: What kind of
resources?


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: We have received a report from the Speaker of this house saying that he has made extensive research into the acoustics of different buildings. I would ask the minister now when it will be possible to have a test made in this house.


Hon. ALPHONSE FOURNIER (Minister of Public Works):: I wish to thank the hon. member for his kind words. In this case I have not many resources. I understand a report has been made by the Speaker and that the conclusions arrived at therein do not favour the installation of a loud speaker system at the present time. I should not like to override His Honour the Speaker in this matter.


George Alexander Cruickshank: We cannot hear.


Gordon Graydon: There is too much noise on the other side now.


Mr. MACKENZIE:: On the other side there always is.



GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH


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The house resumed from Tuesday, March 4, consideration of the motion of Mr. J. W. MacNaught for an address to His Excellency the Governor General in reply to his speech at the opening of the session, and the amendment thereto of Mr. Bracken, and the amendment to the amendment of Mr. Coldwell.
Mr. J. A. ROSS (Souris):: Mr. Speaker, last evening at adjournment I had set forth a series of complaints by veteran settlers of the Charleswood area in Manitoba with respect to the type of construction and the costs proposed to be charged to the occupants of those houses under the Veterans' Land Act. This project happens to be a few miles west of the city of Winnipeg. In fact it is located in the eastern end of the constituency of Portage la Prairie. I believe the hon. member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Miller) in a public statement last October suggested an immediate revaluation of the Charleswood properties and a reduction of the purchase price to a fair level. I understand that since then he has discussed the matter with the Minister of Veterans Affairs (Mr. Mackenzie). Prior to these last complaints we received the hon. member had spoken on this address in reply to the speech from the throne and therefore probably would not have another opportunity to discuss the matter in this house until either the budget is brought down or the estimates of the Department of Veterans Affairs are considered.
I think the condition which I have set forth concerning the Charleswood project exists in like projects in almost every province. On July 28, 1946. the Vancouver Province pointed out that the government, through the Veterans' Land Act, asks $7,636 for veterans' houses in British Columbia, and they suggested a complete investigation of the entire business.
On July 5 last, I asked the following question in this chamber:
Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Veterans Affairs, based upon a report in this morning's press to the effect that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in Montreal have exposed an alleged black market of homes built for war veterans in a government-approved Veterans Land Act project at Bouclierville, across the St. Lawrence river and east of the city of Montreal. The article
The Address-Mr. Ross (Souris)


Mr. MERRITT:: If the minister will permit a question, is the repair job being done at the public expense or at the expense of the contractor who did the faulty work?
.Mr. MACKENZIE:	The repair work will
be done at the expense of the Canadian people. The total cost will probably amount to some five or six or seven hundred thousand dollars, not a cent of which will be charged as an expense against the settlers on these small holdings.


Mr. GREEN:: What about the contractor?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is a legal question which has received and is still receiving consideration, as to the obligations of a contractor under the contract. Last evening my hon. friend referred to a cost plus contract, to which I shall refer in a moment. These, however, were not cost plus contracts; they were management fee contracts, and the average price or fee or reward to the contractor was in the neighbourhood of $200 per house.


Mr. MacINNIS:: The good old free enterprise system, was it not.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Well, it was not very much by way of reward. I am assured by the officers I sent around to visit these centresand we must look at this side of it as well as the other side-that the men and women for the most part are happy and contented, taking pride in their homes and environment. On the other hand, with complete frankness I have to acknowledge some defects. Had we not been so eager, to the point of hastiness, as a result of the need for shelter, possibly we could have done a better job. But at that time, in the winter of 1944 and in 1945, we were confronted with an absolute housing emergency in Canada. An interdepartmental committee was formed here, with Doctor Clark of the Department of Finance as chairman, on which most of the departments were represented. The director of land settlement was asked at that time if he could undertake the construction of some two to three thousand houses in Canada. He said he thought he could, because as my hon. friends will recall, material had been previously contracted for, for that very purpose. That took place before I came into the department, I think in 1944.
In a time of great difficulty, Mr. Speaker, and with the means at our disposal we have provided 2,600 homes for veterans and their families. A land settlement organization created for the purpose of reestablishing veterans in agricultural production was, through the inexorable demands of the housing shortage, thrown into the large scale construction of houses on suburban subdivisions. The plans and specifications were prepared by architects selected by the architectural institutes of the various provinces. The work was supervised by engineers and inspectors selected through the usual competitive procedure of the civil service commission. In other words all the members of the inspection staff were appointed by the civil service commission.
The contractors were among the most outstanding firms in Canada. They were financially sound and of the highest reputation. The programme was undertaken in a time of extreme difficulty. It was begun before the end of the war, and was carried out during the economic disturbances of the transitional and reconstruction period. The ultimate experience was fraught with difficulties. It was neither very much better nor very much worse than that which has been encountered by others who have engaged in large-scale construction projects. As a matter of fact we hear the same complaints from private construction projects as well as from those conducted under government auspices.
The hon. member for Lambton West (Mr. Murphy) spoke in the house. He knows the contracting firm which did the work, because
The Address

Mr. Mackenzie

it is in bis neighbourhood, and he knows of the high reputation of that firm. The hon. member has listed before the house a whole series of defects in the houses built in his constituency. As a result of inspection which has just been completed, it is recognized that there have been many 'instances of inexperienced workmanship. Just take your minds back to the time, and you will recall what conditions were in this dominion-and let it be understood that I am not blaming labour in any way for that. But there was a scarcity of materials-indeed a grave scarcity of materials-and in many instances a scarcity of experienced workmanship.
We were unfortunate enough in three projects, through no fault of our own, to have used plaster made from a cargo of lime which was subsequently condemned, and which was used by others as well as by ourselves. Because of a ruling prohibiting the use of certain materials for flooring, certain houses were built with quite unsuitable flooring material. The result was an imperfect job. We propose to replace the soft wood with hard wood.
Disturbances of the earth due to multiple excavations have resulted in drainage problems which probably should have been foreseen and more thoroughly provided for. These facts exist; but I am glad to be able to assure the house that all of these conditions are remediable, and that, with very few exceptions, at relatively small cost.
Furthermore I have consulted with my colleagues and I am able to assure the house that these defects will be made and are at the present time being made good. Complaints and protests which have reached the public press are inevitable in connection with a project which has been carried out under government auspices. They reflect the pride which young couples take in the construction of their first homes.
I am free to confess that assurances of correcting all defects should have been more explicitly given by those who were in close contact with local developments. This work of repairing defects is of course under way and will be accelerated under the best available direction. Let me make it quite clear that the defects, with a comparatively small number of exceptions, are the inevitable result of a shortage of skilled workmen and properly seasoned materials. They are not defects which when repaired will in any way affect the true value of the house.


Mr. LOCKHART:: Were not all those jobs throughout the country in charge of selected superintendents who were supposed to know this work?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes; but my point was this, that the field was limited, and these superintendents were not selected by our department. The inspection staff all the way down the line was as a result of appointments under the civil service commission.
When these defects have been made good -and they will be made good-I have no hesitation in saying that veterans who buy these homes will have received for their investments a type of home which they cannot duplicate under present conditions at comparable costs.
The down payments are limited to $600. There is a conditional grant-and this is what my hon. friends seem to forget, when they refer to a price of $7,300 to the veterans, as was mentioned by the hon. member who spoke last night. There is no such thing as a cost to the householder of $7,300. I will give the actual costs in a minute or two. As I said, the down payments are limited to $600. Then there is a conditional grant which, in all but a few cases in respect of houses built at exceptionally low costs, reaches the sum of $1,400. That is the conditional grant. Monthly payments which are payable by these householders range from $16 or $17 a month to $28 a month.
Provided we assume that these houses are to be placed in first-class condition, where can they get accommodation today in Canada for a monthly rental which ranges from $16 or $17 to $28 per month? I say you cannot rent comparable accommodation at those prices at the present time.


Howard Charles Green: Was it not the intention that the total cost of these houses should not be over $6,000?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It was the intention at the start that the cost of the houses would be far less than that.


Howard Charles Green: I said not over that.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Quite correct. But there was never any guarantee given. I believe it was the leader of the opposition (Mr. Bracken) who pointed out what had happened, when he was quoting from some propaganda put out some years ago; the monthly rental value was given as $13.82, if my memory serves me correctly, on a house estimated to cost something over $3,000 under the National Housing Act.
As my hon. friend knows, the first house we built under this project, near Vancouver, cost about $4,000. In every case now we have done two or three things which I shall mention in a moment or two. In the first place

The Address-Mr. Mackenzie
this conditional grant of SI,400 is a rebate of some twenty per cent upon the highly priced houses.


Howard Charles Green: But it was always the intention that there would be a rebate, was it not?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It was not the intention that there would be any rebate beyond the SI,400.


Howard Charles Green: That is under the act.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That was a conditional grant to enable the settler to have a better opportunity to settle in these new homes. It enabled him after ten years to have an equity in the house, and then over a period of twenty-five years at three and a half per cent at payments running from $16 or $17 to $28 a month, he can own the house.
That is the actual economic situation. True, there have been cases where costs have been high to the director, and that was in many instances because of the cost of such services outside the actual house itself as roads, sewerage and drainage. These amenities would be charged to the total cost to the director. But as against that there was the conditional allowance of $1,400.


Howard Charles Green: Notwithstanding that, the original intention was that the total cost would not be over $6,000 on any residence; is that not true?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The intention was at the start that the cost would not go over $6,000. In a general way it was expected to range from $4,800 to S6,000, but we encountered rising values and rising costs. It is the same in private construction today. I invite anyone in the house to try to build the same house today, and to compare the cost of that house with the cost in 1939.
I asked Mr. Mansur of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation-well, I did not ask him, but one of my friends did-what was the total increase in cost as between 1939 and new. I think his figure ran up to 73 per cent.


James Arthur Ross: It was 130 per cent in the one I mentioned.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: My hon. friend used a higher figure.


Mr. MURPHY:: Does not the veteran who accepts the $1,400 waive gratuities which he would otherwise get?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No. That is a good point; I am glad my hon. friend asked that question. I think what I am going to say now
will make my hon. friend realize-he probably does already-the real service that is rendered by the state in these cases. For instance, take the service men who built or bought within urban areas, and there are 40,000 of them. What they got was their reestablishment credit-and this averages $445 -and the consequent obligations throughout the years. That is what they got as against the amount given by the state in these 2,600 cases. In this case there is a down payment of $600 and additional allowances up to $1,400. No matter how high the cost may be, the additional allowance is not interfered with.


Joseph Warner Murphy: When a man accepts the $1,400 referred to, does he not waive some credits?


Mr. SPEAKER:: I would remind hon. members that we are not in committee, and it is against the rules to ask questions of the hon. member who has the floor, without first asking his permission.


Joseph Warner Murphy: I wonder if I could ask the minister this question, through you, sir, to clear up the point. If the veteran accepts the $1,400 does he not waive other credits or gratuities that he would otherwise be entitled to?


Walter Adam Tucker: It is in the Veterans Land Act.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Grants under the land act.


Joseph Warner Murphy: That is what I mean.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Certainly. Let me give the rest of the picture. The Veterans Land Act administration has already established some 22,000 veterans. More than 11,000 have been settled in full time farming; approximately 9,500 have been established on small holdings, and these subdivision projects which I have been discussing represent only 2,600 of those 9,500 holdings. The financial assistance under the whole act amounts to more than $111 million. The cost of the 2,663 subdivisions will be in the neighbourhood of $20 million. I mention these facts because I think it is only fair to the director and his staff that the difficulties which have been encountered in house construction should be viewed in their proper perspective in relation to the magnitude of the other operations which have been carried1 on simultaneously and successfully.
I do not propose at this time to try the patience of the house with a complete description, because I shall probably have further information from the committee of three gentlemen which is inspecting these projects.
The Address-Mr. Mackenzie

Requests have been made here today, and previously, for a royal commission. But what would be the use of a royal commission at this time? In the first place you would have to wait for a year before these men's houses were fixed up. We hope with any reasonable chance of success to have it done in two or three months.
I come now to another question, and the hon. member for Nanaimo (Mr. Pearkes) will know about this because this has reference to one of the projects in which he is interested. I refer to the matter of drainage and sewage. It is the intention immediately to get the best experts on drainage to look at these particular projects, because we realize that drainage is of paramount importance.


Mr. PEARKES:: Could not that have been done before the buildings were started?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That goes back to the basic conception of the act. The basic conception of small holdings under the Veterans Land Act was that they were to be semirural and semi-urban. In other words, part of the man's earnings were supposed to come from an industrial occupation and part from the tilling of some land. As a result, whether it was right or wrong-we discussed it in the committee last year-agricultural land was used largely for these projects and this land was thoroughly unsuited for good drainage. That is one of the troubles we have had on the island.
We will have all the necessary information in two weeks and we will make corrections as fast as the right materials can be obtained in sufficient quantities. I have also learned to my great regret that the organization which was charged with this building project was not well suited for the purpose. I am referring to the inspectional division of the land settlement act. I reached that conclusion one year ago and we put a stop then to the initiation of any further subdivision projects, although certain houses were being constructed in certain areas. A sharp line of division was drawn between the housing activities under the direction of my colleague, the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply (Mr. Howe), and the settlement work of the Veterans Land Act.
The Veterans Land Act is not the only method of assisting veterans to obtain houses. Thirty-nine thousand veterans have acquired houses, as I said, by using their reestablishment credits, and more than $17 million have been advanced for this purpose. What is called for at this stage is the assurance which I have endeavoured to give in this brief statement, that the veterans who buy Veter-

ans Land Act houses shall receive fair and just treatment and that such defects as have been found shall be made good so that young veterans and their families may start off in life with comfortable houses of which they can justly be proud.
I want to give the house a few figures. The cost of the first 1,908 houses built under the scheme can be broken down as follows:
127 cost less than $4,500.
247 cost between $4,500 and $5,000.
295 cost between $5,000 and $5,500.
533 cost between $5,500 and $6,000.
383 cost between $6,000 and $6,500.
323 cost more than $6,500.


Mr. JOHNSTON:: Could the minister state where those are located?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I could not do that offhand, but I could easily find out for my hon. friend. In other words, 84 per cent of the houses were built for less than $6,500; the remaining 16 per cent cost more than that amount. As I said before, the veteran must pay ten per cent of that figure, and where the cost exceeds $6,000, the down payment is limited to $600. Where the director's cost is $6,000, there is a conditional grant to the veteran of $1,400. Where a director's total cost is more than $6,000, the grant is maintained at $1,400. Where the director's total cost is $5,500, the total cost to the veteran is $4,216.67 with monthly instalments of $18.24. Where the director's total cost is $6,000, the total cost to the veteran is $4,600 with monthly instalments of $19.82. Where the director's total cost is $6,500, the total cost to the veteran is $5,100 with monthly instalments of $22.39. Where the director's total cost is $7,000, the total cost to the veteran is $5,600 with monthly instalments of $24.87.


Howard Charles Green: Does that cost to the veteran include interest?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes; in the monthly payments. Sarnia and Windsor have been mentioned quite often, and I got the figures of the lowest and highest cost houses at both these points. The price to the veteran of the lowest cost house at Sarnia was $6,055 with monthly payments of $27.14. The price of the lowest cost house at Windsor was $5,863 with monthly payments of $26.18. The highest cost of a veteran's contract at Sarnia was $6,491 with monthly payments of $2927, and the highest price at Windsor was $6,235 with monthly payments of $28.02. The cost to the veteran as far as Sarnia is concerned involves the adjustments that were made as a result of the writing off that was done there last year.


Joseph Warner Murphy: Do the figures given by the minister for Windsor and Sarnia include the

The Address-Mr. Mackenzie
SI,400 which was deducted from their contracts? That SI,400 includes the veteran's credit or gratuity.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The figures quoted were [DOT] after deduction of the $1,400. The hon. member for Souris (Mr. Ross) spoke last night of veterans being called upon to pay $7,300. Again I want to give the facts in regard to the project he mentioned in the neighbourhood of Winnipeg. The facts are that the veterans pay $600 down. For the larger house they pay an additional $5,256 in monthly instalments. For the smaller house they pay an additional $4,709 in monthly instalments. The actual cost to the veteran is not $7,300, but $5,856 for the larger house and $5,309 for the smaller house.
The other question raised was the possibility of a further reduction in the capital cost. I feel reluctant to speak on this before receiving the report of the committee of inspection dealing with the physical nature of the project.


James Arthur Ross: What are the names of the three men on the committee?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The deputy minister, Mr. Walter S. Woods; the director, Mr. Murchison, and Colonel Parish, M.E.I.C., of Montreal, a reputable engineer in every way.


Mr. FLEMING:: Is it the intention that that committee shall inspect all the houses?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That would take
exactly one year and I think it will be agreed that our first duty is to put these houses in first-class shape as soon as possible.


Mr. BROOKS:: May I ask-


James Horace King: Order. These continuous interruptions are absolutely out of order and I would ask hon. member's to abide by the rules.


Mr. CASSELMAN:: So is the minister's conduct out of order. He is not on the speakers' list at all.


Mr. GARDINER:: That would be very nice if you could get away with it.


Arza Clair Casselman: He is getting away with it.


James Garfield Gardiner: I mean getting away with charges and no answer being made.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I have been as frank and explicit as I could be in regard to the two features of this housing situation: first, defects in construction and the necessity for replacing some of the material that was used, such as soft wood and other materials which were used in these houses which W'ere built in a hurry. That work will be done during this
summer. As to drainage there may be engineering features which will make the completion of that work come a little later.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Are the same contractors being used to make the repairs?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: In one or two cases, but generally speaking, no. Wo are trying to get experts who are entirely outside the old organization and I am receiving every assistance from the Minister of Reconstruction. The two fundamental features that we are dealing with are, first, the repairing and reconditioning and putting into first-class shape of all these houses wherever they are throughout Canada, and seeing that wet basements and conditions of dampness caused by faulty drainage or otherwise are corrected as soon as possible. The second is the request which has come from various sources for a royal commission. The only feature with which a royal commission could deal would be in my judgment, the question of a cut in the capital cost. If we were to ask a royal commission to examine the physical condition of these houses it would simply be delaying their completion and delaying the furnishing of the amenities to w'hich these settlers are entitled.
I have been very frank with the house, as I should be, in dealing with this whole situation. I have held nothing back. I have told the house that the construction work was hurried, and, further, that it was impeded by a lack of materials. We all know what the material situation was in Canada and the difficulties that were experienced in getting housing outside altogether of this project. The faults are being corrected at once and we believe that these houses, when completed, will be a social pleasure to the occupants.
This is my final word. Let us not forget that our main interest in this thing, the main interest of every one of us in the house, is not the pointing out of faults but going along together along a trail of twenty-five years with the servicemen, and I invite the cooperation of every party in the house in doing all we can to ensure that our veterans shall enjoy the happiness, security, prosperity and environment which they so richly deserve.


Howard Charles Green: Is there to be any cut in the cost to the soldier?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No, not further than the conditional grant and the equalization adjustment under the order in council.


Mr. ARMAND CLOUTIER (Drummond-Arthabaska):: Mr. Speaker, I have listened with deep interest to the remarks and expose of the Minister of Veterans Affairs (Mr. Mac-
The Address-Mr. Cloutier

kenzie) in regard to veterans housing, and on behalf of the electors of the historic constituency of Drummond-Arthabaska, which I have the honour to represent in the Canadian House of Commons, I wish to congratulate him most heartily.
Availing myself of your customary kindness, Mr. Speaker, I shall continue my speech in French, the language of my forebears, and conclude it in English in order to show my esteem and regard for my English-speaking fellow members, from whom I have received so many marks of kindness and consideration since I entered parliament.
(Translation):
Mr. Speaker, ever since my election as mem-; ber for Drummond-Arthabaska, a constituency which has had outstanding representatives, it lad been my wont to deliver one speech in the course of each session. To those who may be wondering why I have not risen in .my place since I was reelected in 1945, I may say that, owing to my esteem and consideration for my new fellow-members, I felt I could wait, thus affording them the opportunity of stating their views and their policy. I avail myself of this occasion to pay a tribute to the present members, who form the finest body which, so it seems to me, we have had for a number of years.
Mr. Speaker, I cannot but take advantage of this opportunity to extend to you the customary congratulations and to tell you that every citizen in the fine constituency of Drummond-Arthabaska was as delighted as 1 have been when you were called upon to fulfil the high functions of Speaker of this house. No better choice could have been made. As a grandson of the great Honore Mercier, you have, through your talents, your personality and your industry, attained the high post which you occupy with so much dignity. You may be assured of the best wishes of all -the electors of my constituency and myself.
May I sincerely compliment the mover and the seconder of the address in reply to the speech from the throne. The hon. member for Prince has performed his task in a most admirable manner, and I could hardly tell how glad I was to note the truly Canadian spirit he evidenced in speaking as well as he did the language of my ancestors.
As regards the seconder, I knew beforehand that he would be equal to the task, as I had frequently had occasion to admire him in political contests. I knew that he would make good use of his eloquence and that he

would win the plaudits of all members of this house through his gentlemanly qualities and his quite personal appeal.
I am now constrained to introduce a note of sadness. I cannot forgo this opportunity of paying a tribute to a great Canadian, who was minister for my district and whose death is lamented by all. I have known and esteemed him and he has often given me sound advice. I am referring to that great Canadian, the late lamented Hon. P. J. A. Cardin. His thirty-five years of active political life will ensure him an honoured place in the history of this country. During his splendid and fruitful career, Hon. Mr. Cardin enjoyed the respect of all, because he was always upright and sincere. He had firm principles and his courage was indomitable. The sterling qualities which made him a beloved and respected leader will always cause him to be cited as an example. His name will live in history, with the radiant qualities of heart and mind of a great statesman. Through his ability, his eloquence and his powerful mind, he rose step by step in the political sphere and attained the highest functions in the federal administration. While proud, he was never haughty and to him honours were of minor importance, as against the respect of his principles -and the interest of his fellow-citizens. I was deeply moved when I saw his noble countenance immobilized by death, but still keeping an expression of gentleness and firmness. I felt I still heard his musical voice, his eloquent words, when I pondered the heavy loss his death meant for his compatriots and all Canadians. Now that he has left for the great beyond, many among those who knew him less will better realize the important and patriotic part he has played in our public life. His memory will endure and his life will remain a symbol, an unforgettable example of public spirit and devotion.
The population of the constituency of Drummond-Arthabaska is made up of the two best elements that can be found, as it includes both farmers and workers. We know what an asset the land is for a country, and what vitality the people derive from it. The farmers in our district keep on, peacefully but without respite in this twentieth century, ploughing the toilsome and everlasting furrow which was begun in the seventeenth century by the settlers of Richelieu, Colbert and Talon.
As regards the workers, I feel quite close to them, because for nearly twenty-one years I was paymaster, accountant and statistician for the Drummondville Cotton Co., which is

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a subsidiary of the Dominion Textile, and whose plant is one of the most important in Drummondville, employing as it does more than 1,600 workers. I say, Mr. Speaker, that my contact with them has enabled me to understand their problems and to sympathize with their most legitimate wishes. Drummondville, Victoriaville and other industrial centres of my constituency deserve mention for the harmony and the good spirit which exist between employers and workers. Both groups are cooperating whole-heartedly and their relations are of the best.
Mr. Speaker, permit me to extend my most sincere congratulations to the hon. Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Martin), the former Secretary of State in this government, for his splendid work in connection with the citizenship act, both in sponsoring the bill in the Canadian parliament and in supervising the administration of the act. That legislation affords fresh hope for a prompt and sincere effort toward the achievement of a Canadian spirit. But it should not be forgotten that this agreement, this Canadian unity will only be attained if the spirit of 1867 is strictly adhered to and it is realized that the people of this country are all Canadians, having equal rights, there being neither a conquered nor a conquering element.
Canadian unity has long been a moot question. I know, Mr. Speaker, that there will always be narrow-minded people who will seek to curb any movement toward good understanding and unity among all Canadians. Those extremists form a small minority and they are more vocal than dangerous. However, I say that the Canadian nation is gradually developing.
Bilingualism is the very basis of our great national principles; it is for us an element of strength, marking as it does our racial duality, and the union of two great modern civilizations through a double classical and scientific education. Our cultural idealism is blended with a practicalness which permits us to benefit from that deep, culture.
The French element does not exist only in Quebec; the French Canadians are prolific and they have preserved the adventurous spirit of their forebears. They have spread over every part of the country. They are good settlers, they know how to clear new land and they are born builders and pioneers. Courageous and industrious, they have at heart the success of their task and the preservation of their language. Western Canada as well as the maritime provinces have many Frenchspeaking communities. Two million French Canadians are to be found in the United States. Recent statistics show that in these last two or three years, more than 11,000 people from Quebec have taken up residence in Ontario.
A great Toronto periodical, Saturday Night, notes these facts and states that such a trend cannot be changed and that it is likely to become more and more noticeable. The Ontario writer states in conclusion:
Under such circumstances, why should we not improve our relations with the French Canadians and admit once for all that Canada is a bilingual country, a confederation of two racial groups having each its own language and its own culture. At the present time, bilingualism means more particularly that the French Canadians must learn English.
The writer goes on to deplore the fact that the French language is poorly taught outside of Quebec and he emphasizes that sooner or later the majority of Canadians will have to speak both languages.
That article from Saturday Night reflects credit on Its writer and it greatly enhances the cause of Canadian unity. It recalls the very principles of the Canadian confederation and opens out new prospects for this country.
It is indeed desirable that the French language should be better taught throughout the country, so that English-speaking Canadians may better understand us. At the same time, it must be stressed that the English language should also be taught more efficiently within our province, for similar and other still more important reasons. Otherwise, we shall always have but one official language, our own. Newcomers in this country prefer English because it is easier to learn. It would be to our advantage and interest to learn better the language of the majority. If we did so. and if the rest of the people followed the advice given by the author of the article published by Saturday Night, Canada would become a bilingual country and we could rightly speak about a Canadian nation.
Mr. Speaker, how shall we be able to attain to the rank of a true nation or achieve Canadian unity? We shall reach such an objective by giving our country an emblem, a truly Canadian and distinctive flag, which will enable us to identify ourselves clearly, proudly and promptly. In this connection, I must compliment the government, on behalf of all my electors, for having included that commendable measure in the speech from the throne last year and having appointed a committee for that purpose. That committee in which I did not sit included outstanding
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people from Quebec and other provinces, men who are no doubt conscious of their responsibilities and of the importance of their task, an enlightened and competent committee which will do justice to all, willing to consider the legitimate Claims of the people and of the press as well as the merits of all the designs which have been submitted to it. We all know that the committee has reported that in its opinion Canada should have a national and distinctive flag.
Mr. Speaker, what more shall we have to do in order to attain to the rank of a true nation and achieve Canadian unity? We shall have to adopt a national anthem. I know of nothing more beautiful or loftier than the anthem O Canada. It is a martial poem which evokes our whole past featured by struggles, toil, efforts and pride, a true epic from wdiich the people derive courage, strength and ideal, as well as a purpose for living, fighting, conquering, and if needs be, generously sacrificing their lives.
And what can be more stirring than that music to the rhythm of which our boys, in these times as in the past, have marched and defeated the enemy.
Canada's national anthem does not belong exclusively to my kinsmen, who find in a distant past the chief reasons of the love they feel for their country. The other racial groups who live in Canada also have their heroes and their martyrs. We all sing the same anthem; may we all understand it, and make it the basis of our thoughts, of our very life, and of our common love.
0 Canada is the true anthem of this country; its accents arise from the land and are echoed by our great river, by the boundless forests w'hich extend from the east to the west, forming the poignant voice of the past, the dynamic voice of the future. 0 Canada should remain our national anthem, it should continue to give expression, in this country as outside, to the spirit and the soul of our people.
Mr. Speaker, the French Canadians, like all other racial groups, are proud of their nationality, of their glorious past, featured by intellectual endeavours and contributions to moral improvement. They are proud of their language, they cherish their institutions and they intend to survive, to preserve their position in a country they have developed and in which they have multiplied. I consider national unity as a vital pact so lofty and noble in its scope and its inspiration that the

parties to the agreement should esteem and respect each other. We are the most truly Canadian among Canadians, inasmuch as we have long been rooted in this country and we have benefited for many centuries from the numerous influences of our environment. In passing, I wish to recall with pride that my own ancestors came from France in 1616, eight years only after Samuel de Champlain had founded Quebec, but nevertheless, my only claim is that I am simply a Canadian.
We are of French and English descent, our culture is both French and English and that is the very reason why we feel impelled to safeguard the sacred heritage which our ancestors and yours have left us, those principles which are the very basis of our lives, which condition them and give to Canada a truly distinctive character.
(Text):
Mr. Speaker, so that this appeal of mine for cooperation, for Canadian unity, may also reach my English-speaking colleagues, I shall now complete my address in English, a language not altogether unknown to me, of course, but understandably less familiar to me than my own.
I thus wish to show my esteem and regard for my English-speaking colleagues both in and outside the province of Quebec, so that all may hear and understand my message, this appeal of mine, for earnest cooperation in the furtherance of national progress. Since Quebec members are ever ready to share in this effect, I too have wanted to do my bit in the furtherance of Canadian unity. I shall therefore continue my remarks on Canadian unity, following those I have just spoken in French. I can well imagine two great races of different backgrounds growing side by side in mutual respect, each striving better to understand the other. It is my feeling that war, in demanding closer contacts between provinces, between eastern and western Canada, between the French and the English elements of this country, has enormously helped a closer association of the people of Canada, a country so vast that differences may be noted in the mentality, outlook, habits and customs of people in the various provinces.
No wonder then that English and French Canadians, though living side by side, but being of different backgrounds and extraction, remain strangers. It may be that war shall have served to establish unity, wrought this miracle of rapprochement and mutual regard which long years, nay, a whole century of striving failed to bring about. The scourge of wrar then has had this beneficial result, for it has brought us to the threshold of a true and

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real understanding. I believe there is not a single member of the armed forces in this country who does not count good friends in some of the other provinces.
Mr. Speaker, on behalf of my constituents, and as representative of the historic constituency of Drummond-Arthabaska, once represented here by Sir Wilfrid Laurier whose voice I modestly echo, I say that we Canadians of French ancestry from old Quebec are ready to extend a cordial hand of friendship, to cooperate in the attainment of this common ideal, so that in the surge of progress now apparent throughout the world, Canada may play a part befitting this vast, wealthy, young and free country. It is necessary that we strive not for a national but for an international outlook. Let our thoughts and discussions no longer dwell on the past but let them carry us into the future in union, harmony and unity.
In my enthusiasm and sincerity, Mr. Speaker, I am reminded of those glorious monuments on parliament hill that recall our political history and the memory of past statesmen:	first, the great Queen Victoria,
of whom our elders still speak with reverence and whose memory remains dear to all Canadians, then Sir George-Etienne Cartier, an outstanding father of confederation, an inspired patriot, who gave us the song "0 Canada", my beloved country, and whose [DOT]death w'as truly a national loss, Sir Alexander Mackenzie who, in 1878, asked Sir Wilfrid Laurier to join his cabinet, George Brown, who may well remain as the symbol of the hard task that had to be faced by our first Canadian politicians at that decisive period. At the base of his monument the sculptor has placed a ballot box, a sword at rest, an olive branch and a banner upon which are inscribed the words, "Government by the people, free institutions, religious, liberty and equality, unity and progress of confederation." These are the fundamental principles of civil and religious liberty more enduring than the stone upon which they are inscribed. May this ever be the monumental position of a nation of liberty loving peoples unshackled by injustice and tyranny.
At a distance I see the monument of D'Arcy McGee, the great Irish patriot, murdered by the Fenians, whose memory remains green in the hearts of all true Canadians; Lafontaine and Baldwin, who struggled side by side for responsible government, whose administration is not forgotten. Though of different creeds and of different racial origin, they found in their common desire to serve their country and their countrymen, as well as in mutual esteem, grounds
for union and lasting affection. What an example of understanding; what a testimony to Canadian unity!
Sir John A. Macdonald was another father of confederation, and not the least, who did much to build up this great and beautiful country, and whom Canadians rank as one held in high esteem in all parts of this country.
Finally 1 see, gazing eastward as if still watching over his province, the great Sir Wilfrid Laurier, the silver-tongued orator who, in a memorable speech in Paris, once said: "France gave us life and England gave us liberty." How dearly he loved that province of his, and yet, truly a Canadian, he remains the great advocate of friendly understanding.
In the presence of those statues or material symbols, which are so many landmarks in Canadian political history, there comes to me a vision, an insight into the future of this great country of ours. I can imagine a Hill; a Louis-Philippe Hebert, a Soucy, a Brunet, a sculptor shaping Ins medium, gathering and putting together bits of material that will soon blend into a complete harmonious whole. What a marvel. It is possible only for a genius, this creation of a living, animated being. Would I were that genius, Mr. Speaker, this sculptor before his task, a creation unlike any other, strong, huge, endowed with the breath of life.
At this moment, Mr. Speaker, I can well picture our country, this Canada of ours. And to close this allegory, I shall quote from the works of one of our poets these few lines from "The Mixer", whose meaning reaches the very depths of my soul, and which I should like to share with you:
In the city, on the prairie, in the forest, in the camp,
In the mountain-clouds of colour, in the fog-white river damp,
From Atlantic to Pacific, from the great lakes to the pole,
I am mixing strange ingredients into a common whole.
Every hope shall build upon me, every heart shall be my own,
The ambition of my people shall be mine and mine alone.
Through the pangs of transformation in my fiery furnace-blast,
Do I shape and mould and make them "Canadians at last."


Mr. H. R. ARGUE (Wood Mountain):: Mr. Speaker, in rising to take part in this debate, I find there are a good many topics I could cover which affect the people of my province. The farmers of western Canada would appreciate a good deal of information on several subjects. For example, they would like to know what is likely to be the policy of the government in coarse grains, so that they can
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plan their production in that regard for this year. They would like to know if their costs of production are going to increase step by step continuously this year, as they did over the past year.
However, the one problem perhaps foremost in the minds of the people of western Canada particularly at this time, and indeed in the minds of all Canadians, is the question of an adjustment in freight rates. Over the years western Canada has been handicapped because of its transportation problem. Because of our geographical position, because we are in the centre of a large continent, and because manufacturing is carried on largely in the central provinces, we are wholly dependent upon the railways to bring in freight and export our produce. The cost of freight to the consumer is usually a mark-up over the price charged by the manufacturers in the central provinces. On top of that freight cost are mark-ups by the wholesaler and the retailer, which of course increase the cost to the consumer.
Over the years, there has been a tendency for the board of transport commissioners to take cognizance of the vast disparity in freight rates as between western and eastern Canada, and there has been some closing of that wide gap between the freight rates of Ontario and Quebec and those of western Canada.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER:: I would remind the hon. member that the question of freight rates is now before the board of transport commissioners. If the hon. member will look at Beauchesne's, third edition, page 105, paragraph 251, he will find it states that the board of railway commissioners is a court of record. Any matters before a court of record are sub judice and, in my opinion, should not at this time be discussed in the house.


Mr. COLDWELL:: The paragraph states:
The board of railway commissioners is a court of record and therefore may not be attacked except by way of impeachment.
Surely this debate is not an attack upon the board of railway commissioners. If I remember correctly, last night the hon. member for Lisgar (Mr. Winkler) dealt extensively with this subject, as other hon. members have done. It will be noted that paragraph 252 states:
Matters which have been adjudicated upon by the railway commissioners and taken in appeal to the governor in council cannot be considered sub judice while the appeal is pending, because the governor in council then acts in an administrative and not a judicial capacity, and therefore such matters may be debated in the House of Commons.

If, when an appeal from the board of railway commissioners is pending, the discussion of such matters is not precluded in the house, then surely it follows that matters of this description before an appeal, or before a judgment has been given, should not be precluded from discussion.
I repeat that other hon. members have been allowed to discuss this matter; and, since it affects the hon. member's constituency very closely, I suggest that he should not be precluded from doing what others have already done.


William Ross Macdonald: I did not happen to be in the Chair when other hon. members were discussing this matter. I do not recall that a general discussion on an increase in freight rates did take place.


Mr. KNOWLES:: The matter was discussed last night by the hon. member for Lisgar.


William Ross Macdonald: The hon. member for Lisgar may have mentioned it.


Major James William Coldwell: And the hon. member for Souris (Mr. Ross).


William Ross Macdonald: I do not think he went into a discussion of the subject. Hansard will record what he said.


Stanley Howard Knowles: He spoke for fifteen minutes on the subject.


William Ross Macdonald: Paragraph 252, to which the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) has just referred, states that the reason the matter can be discussed after a decision has been made and an appeal taken to the governor in council is that the governor in council is not acting in a judicial capacity. But when a matter is being considered by a court-and anything being considered before a court is a judicial proceeding -then it cannot be discussed in the house, and js definitely sub judice at that time.
I feel satisfied that this matter is now before a court of record, and that in compliance with paragraph 246 (c) it is now out of order to refer to any matter on which a judicial decision is pending. Surely a judicial decision is now pending with respect to freight rates.


Major James William Coldwell: Does it not depend upon what the definition of a judicial decision is? Surely a board of commissioners appointed by the House of Commons or by the crown is not a court giving judgment; or, to put it in another way, is not a judicial court. Hence it seems to me that the hon. member should be allowed to continue his remarks, particularly, as I say, because it would not be

The Address-Mr. Argue
fair-and I know Your Honour always tries to be fair-to limit his remarks after the house has allowed other hon. members to consider the matter at some length.


James Garfield Gardiner: Mr. Speaker, last night I was in the house when two hon. members did discuss this matter, namely the hon. members for Lisgar and Souris. It was not discussed at great length.


Major James William Coldwell: I said "at some length".


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, it was at some length, and at sufficient length to have resulted in its being ruled out of order, if, indeed, it is out of order. The point was brought up by those of us who were in the chamber at the time as to whether that question should be raised. I do not know whether any study has been given to the matter since that time. But if there has not been, inasmuch as we have only another hour and a half before concluding today's sitting, and so long as there is not a lengthy discussion on the subject, probably in fairness to those who desire to say a word or two on the matter it would be better to permit them to proceed, and to have a final decision before we begin discussion again tomorrow.


William Ross Macdonald: Mr. Speaker has given the matter some consideration since it was mentioned in the house. I hold in my hand a written memorandum, the contents of which I have not seen nor have I discussed with Mr. Speaker, but which, I am sure, he would have no objection to my reading at this time. Apparently he has given it careful consideration.


James Garfield Gardiner: I was not aware it had been given study. If it has, we would like to have the benefit of it.


William Ross Macdonald: I shall read the memorandum.


Major James William Coldwell: I must suggest that, whatever Mr. Speaker's memorandum may be, the proceedings having been allowed to go as they have gone, the suggestion offered by the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) is the one which should be considered. I would not be inclined to appeal a ruling on the ground that if Your Honour gave a ruling it would be the wrong one; I would be inclined rather to appeal on the ground that a matter of equity is involved, and that because of that a ruling should not be given.


Gordon Graydon: You are getting to be quite a lawyer.


Major James William Coldwell: Thank you.


William Ross Macdonald: Perhaps it
would be better if I were to read this memorandum, so that it may be on record. Then the hon. member for Wood Mountain (Mr. Argue) could govern his remarks accordingly. The memorandum states:
Some reference has been made during the present debate to the question of freight rates. It is a matter of public information that the board of transport commissioners is at present hearing an application by the Canadian railways for an increase in freight rates. For this reason, I have been somewhat concerned with regard to the matter and thought it well to make a statement in regard thereto.
I am fully aware that the question of an increase of freight rates is a matter of great public interest, and that this public interest wras bound to reflect itself in this House of Commons. I am also aware that our parliamentary system is one based on the right of free speech, and particularly on an exercise of this right, by the elected members of this house.
However, I think it my duty to bring to the attention of the house, the long-established rule of Canadian parliamentary practice, that a member while speaking must not refer to any matter on which a judicial decision is pending. (Beaucliesne's third edition, citation 246 (c)). I may say that the same rule applies in the British House of Commons. (May, fourteenth edition, p. 430.)
Section nine of the Railway Act provides that the board of transport commissioners for Canada shall be a court of record. It is quite clear, therefore, that proceedings taking place before the board of transport commissioners are sul>
judice, and reference to such matters is barred by the rule to which I have referred.
It might be well for me to point out to the house that the board of transport commissioners, formerly known as the board of railway commissioners, is set up under the provisions of a statute duly enacted by the Canadian parliament. Every section of Canada is represented on the board and there is little doubt that parliament in creating this board felt that matters within its jurisdiction could best be dealt with by an independent board, free from what might be described as the heat of party politics. The members of the house will, I am sure, desire that the board should have an opportunity of discharging its duties impartially and without prejudice. Any judicial body is given like protection under our system of government. For instance, the press with all its freedom is restricted in its right to comment on matters being adjudicated upon by a court of record.
It is of course the privilege of any hon. member of this house who is sufficiently interested to make his representations to the board at its present sittings.
I would also point out the Railway Act provides that any party interested may petition the governor in council to vary or rescind any order or decision of the board. After the board has completed its work or, should such an application be made to the governor in council, this house will have ample and proper opportunity to debate the whole matter.
In making this statement, I have not overlooked the fact that the only discussion excluded hy the rule is the matter actually before the ho.ard of railway commissioners, namely, an application by the railways for an increase in
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freight rates. I ask, therefore, that the members keep in mind the rule to which I have referred in speaking in this debate and in any debates which may follow while the matter is sub jiidice.


Hazen Robert Argue: The only reason I went to the trouble to get this information together was that I think this particular matter is of vital importance to the people of western Canada. As I understand it, an appeal from a decision of the board is to the governor general in council and I would not consider I was doing my duty if I did not speak on freight rates before a decision is made. I shall attempt the best I can to keep away from referring to the application.
In making a submission to the royal commission on dominion-provincial relations in 1939, Mr. R. A. C. Henry said:
From 1916 to 1920, the various general increases in rates which were granted, while allowed as protection to the carriers against increased costs, were at the same time used to reduce further the disparity between eastern and western rates.
It is generally well known that there is disparity between rates. For instance, it costs twenty cents to ship 100 pounds of petroleum products fifty miles from the city of Regina, whereas it costs only eight cents to ship a similar weight a similar distance from the city of Sarnia. Surely it can be seen that any upward revision of these rates on a proportionate basis would further widen that disparity.
The argument that there is competition from trucks operating on the highways in western Canada can be met. This type of competition is very small in western Canada, particularly in Saskatchewan. There are only 139 miles of hard-surfaced roads in Saskatchewan, whereas in Ontario there are 7,407 miles of hard-surfaced roads, including Portland cement, bituminous pavement and bituminous surface. Then there is water-borne competition which is not available in western Canada. The people of western Canada are wholly or nearly wholly dependent upon the railroads for transportation of goods into and out of that part of the country, and consequently they are concerned with what freight rates may be at any particular time.
We should remember that a tremendous backlog of demand for goods has been built up, particularly in Saskatchewan, cm account of the long years of depression before the war and to the fact that the production of most items was drastically curtailed during the war. Because of that backlog, the freight rates that must be paid on incoming goods will have a serious effect upon the living standards of the people in that part of Canada.

For instance, in 1946 the Ford dealer in Regina had a quota of 300 cars; this year his quota is 600. The same figure applies to the Chevrolet dealer. Increased freight rates on 600 cars, twice the number of cars shipped in 1948 will mean a real added cost to the epople of that province of Saskatchewan. The cost of transporting a Dodge de luxe special four-door sedan from Windsor to Moose Jaw is SI 17.23. Thirty per cent of that figure amounts to S35.17. It costs S41.50 to ship an eight-foot tiller combine with seeding attachments from Brantford to Regina, and thirty per cent of that is S12.45. The freight charges on an eight-foot combine are S74.63, thirty per cent of which would be S22.39. Then there is the mark-up put on the freight charges by the wholesaler and the retailer. That adds further to the transportation charges. Taking S35 as thirty per cent of the cost of transporting a car from Windsor, the mark-up would probably raise that amount to well over S30.
We should keep in mind, too, the fact that housing conditions in Saskatchewan are bad as a result of the depression and because of the small amount of building during the war years. A survey in the prairie area was made by the farm management department of the university of Saskatchewan. This showed that 23-5 per cent of farm homes were considered to be in poor condition; 70-4 per cent were considered to be in fair condition, and 6-1 per cent in good condition. The report states that at least fifty per cent of the houses in poor condition need to be replaced by more adequate and suitably constructed dwellings, while the remaining fifty per cent need the expenditure of at least one-half of the replacement cost to put them in fair condition. The farm homes in fair repair need from ten to twenty per cent of their present value spent in the way of repairs to put them in satisfactory condition.
Facilities such as furnaces, electricity, flush toilets, bathtubs and so on, are to be found- in less than one in ten of these homes. It costs a minimum of $425 to equip a home with sanitary facilities. The freight charges on the lumber, cement, iron and steel products and everything else necessary to build and repair a home constitute part of the cost. When freight rates are high, the cost of those materials is consequently high. Any upward revision in freight rates will seriously affect the cost of home building.
I have here the rates on lumber from Saint John, New Brunswick, to Chatham, Ontario, and from Vancouver, British Columbia, to Herbert, Saskatchewan. In each instance the distance is 985 miles. The freight rate in eastern Canada is thirty-seven cents per 100

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pounds and. in western Canada, fifty-four cents per 100 pounds. I quote these figures merely to show the difference in freight rates and to emphasize the fact that western Canada freight rates are today high and that any increase in freight rates will add to an already heavy burden.
Let me cite a few instances. The freight on cement from Fort Whyte, Manitoba, to Regina is twenty-seven cents per 100 pounds. An increase in freight rates of thirty per cent would mean an additional charge of seven cents for an 874 pound bag of cement. It would also mean that the price of canned goods would be increased by one cent per can. The cost of furniture would increase too. The freight charges on a studio lounge weighing 150 pounds from Montreal to Saskatoon amount to $2.97. An increase of thirty per cent would add eighty-nine cents to the cost of that lounge. The people of the western provinces as consumers have to import all the manufactured goods they use, so that any increase in freight rates would add to the cost of the articles they buy.
We must remember that the people of Saskatchewan in particular are producers of primary products and the cost of exporting these products cut of the province to markets such as Toronto and Montreal is indeed high. The cost of sending a 1.200 pound steer from Maple Creek to Toronto, with a freight rate of S1.124 per 100 pounds amounts to $13.50, and thirty per cent of that amounts to S4.05. An increase in freight rates of thirty per cent would mean a decreased revenue to the farmer of approximately $4 on that steer. One might argue that when cattle prices are high, as they are relatively today, $4 does not amount to much, but if cattle again go down to a price of two or three cents a pound, that freight burden would indeed be enormous.
On all the cattle marketed in Saskatchewan in 1944, namely, 378.859 head-these figures are taken from the Canada Year Book-if it is assumed that the average weight was 1,009 pounds and that the cattle were shipped from Moose Jaw, the freight would amount to over $4,356,000, and a thirty per cent increase in that amount would mean a loss in revenue to the farmers of Saskatchewan of $1,300,000.
I have some figures here to show the butter production in Saskatchewan. Sometimes we lose sight of the fact that Saskatchewan has a substantial dairy industry. If one forgets about the dairy production of Ontario and Quebec, 33.6 per cent of our butter production in Canada comes from Saskatchewan.


Mr. MacNICOL:: That is outside of Ontario and Quebec?


Hazen Robert Argue: Yes. I think all members realize that butter production is an important thing in Canada today and anything that will tend to decrease the supply of butter is certainly something that cannot be pardoned by this house. If we want to get away from the rationing of butter and to get into the position where we shall not have to take butter from New Zealand, which forces the people of Great Britain to go without some of the very small amount of butter they are receiving at the present time, nothing should be done to decrease our butter production. The average freight on butter leaving the province of Saskatchewan is 2-61 cents per pound, according to the Saskatchewan Dairy Association. The freight cost on the bulk items required in the processing and marketing of creamery butter is * 15 cents per pound, and the average freight on the incoming product to the creamery is 1-5 cents per pound. So that here we have a total charge of 4-26 cents per pound on butter produced in Saskatchewan. An increase of thirty per cent in the freight and express rates would add 1-28 cents to the cost of a pound of butter. The Saskatchewan Dairy Association contend that a thirty per cent upward revision in freight rates would mean the loss of at least three-quarters of a cent a pound and perhaps more to the Saskatchewan butter producers. Certainly, if that happens. Saskatchewan producers of cream are going to leave the production of dairy products and return to straight wheat farming and thus there will be less diversification than there now is. I think diversification where possible is a good thing, and certainly we should not support anything that would tend to make the farmers of western Canada leave the production of butter and dairy and meat products and go back into the highly hazardous business of straight grain farming.
It is estimated that a thirty per cent increase in freight rates would mean a reduced income to the producers of poultry of at least three-quarters of a cent a pound and a decreased income from eggs of three-quarters of a cent a dozen. All these figures, based on statements of the Saskatchewan Dairy Association, show that any increase in freight costs would mean a serious reduction in farm prices and, therefore, a serious reduction in the living standards of our farm people. And so the people of western Canada, and of Saskatchewan in particular, feel that they have a real stake in freight rates in this country. They know that any freight charge, whether it be high or low, is added to the price of goods that they must buy and deducted from the price of the goods

The Address-Mr. Argue

they have to sell. It is estimated-I have seen this in the press-that a thirty per cent increase in freight rates might amount to a sum of 885.000,000. Surely that is a large sum of money, and the burden of supplying that money will bear most heavily on the people of western Canada, and will mean a considerable reduction in their standards of living.
I have here some figures on the financial position of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company. Its reserve in 1937 was $91,000,000. In 1946 the reserve had increased to $350,000,000, or an increase of some $259,000,000 in that period of time. The funded debt of the CPU. in 1939 was $228 million; in 1946 that debt had been decreased to $83 million. Moreover, the average rate of funded debt paid by the C.P.R. in 1939 amounted to 41 per cent, whereas the average rate on their funded debt still held in 1945 was only 2-84 per cent. It is estimated that this decrease in the C.P.R. funded debt and the decrease in the carrying charge will amount to an annual saving to the C.P.R. of $7,018,000.
Surely these figures do not in any way suggest that the CP.R. is in financial straits. Certainly it is not a poor company that needs greater consideration from the people of this country.
The C.P.R. too, I notice, is asking for additions and betterments to railway property amounting to $15,235,000; asking for $15 million out of the freight rates of this country to provide for additions and betterments. Surely additions and betterments are capital extensions and capital investments, and the Canadian Pacific Railway Company should not wish to ask the people of Canada to provide money for this purpose through freight charges, whether increased or otherwise.
Mr. Walker referred-


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, I do not wish to interrupt the hon. gentleman. He has been speaking about freight rates for some time, but the moment he starts to discuss evidence before the hearing I think he is entirely out of order.


Hazen Robert Argue: I will accept the correction.


William Ross Macdonald: When the hon. member commenced his speech I referred to the fact that discussion in this house of the application for an increase in freight rates was out of order. I read a lengthy memorandum which Mr. Speaker had prepared, and I believe all hon. members agreed that it was not in order to discuss at the present time an increase in freight rates. It was however, I took it, the consensus of all hon. members that the hon. member for Wood Mountain

might make a brief statement because other hon. members had done so. I do not think it was the feeling of the house that an extended argument on freight rates should be allowed at this time.


Stanley Howard Knowles: On a point of order,
Mr. Speaker, may I ask you to consider the portion of the memorandum which you read in which reference was made to the freedom of the press. It was pointed out that that freedom was not denied by the understanding that the press cannot discuss matters that are sub judice. I would call your attention to the fact that the press is discussing this matter quite freely, which would seem to suggest that it is not sub judice, and I would press the view that members of parliament should have as much freedom to discuss these matters here as is accorded the press.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, I am
sorry I was not here when you read the ruling, and I knew nothing about it until my colleague the Minister of National Revenue (Mr. McCann) drew it to my attention. I do not think it was the intention of the ruling that there should be no discussion at all on generalities, so far as the application was concerned. But the moment there is discussion concerning the evidence before the board, which is a court of record, then that is tantamount to discussing a case which is before a court, and I am sure the hon. member for Wood Mountain had no such intention. Last night one hon. member referred to a rate in general and went on to say that it had been reduced. I do not think there can be objection to that particular discussion; but when there is reference to the evidence which is before a court, on a hearing upon which there has been no decision, surely that is clearly out of order.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I would point out
equally that there has been no definite ruling on the matter. A memorandum lias been read and a suggestion made.


Mr. SMITH (Calgary West):: The minister says it is a court of record. I assume that must be a provision of the Railway Act. I do not remember it.


Lionel Chevrier: Yes.


William Ross Macdonald: It is a provision of the Railway Act. I think I have allowed the hon. gentleman wide latitude and I suggest to him that he refrain from any further discussion of the application for an increase.


Hazen Robert Argue: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I do not wish to discuss the application, but there are two or three points to which I wish

The Address-Mr. Lockhart
to refer. I do not think any exception can be taken to them. I wish to read from the war labour board's order of October 16, 1946, which states in part:
During the years 1939 to 1945 inclusive the total assets of the Canadian Pacific increased considerably, as have reserve and profit and loss balances. The liquid position of the company has been maintained and indeed improved. Funded indebtedness is down substantially thereby and to a commensurate extent freeing the company from certain recurring fixed charges.
I think the question of fair freight rates can be argued on the basis of advocating for western Canada rates that are similar to rates in eastern Canada. Moreover, one would not consider it fair for a railway company to make a relatively large profit in one section of Canada and a relatively small profit in another. For instance, in the years 1936 to 1946 the Canadian Pacific Railway Company on its western lines made a profit of S24S,150,000 and in the same period, on its eastern lines, $126,700,000. Those profits are indeed large, and the significant fact in them is that the profit made in western Canada was almost twice as much as that made in eastern Canada and follows a pattern that is shown in the profits of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company in past years.


Mr. McCANN:: Income or profits? In
what year did they ever make $248 million profit?


Hazen Robert Argue: From 1936 to 1946, a period of years.


James Joseph McCann: Oh, ten years?


Hazen Robert Argue: Yes. I think it would be well for the house to bear in mind that Dominion cash subsidies to the C.P.R. over the years have amounted to a total of $89,671,000 and that federal land grants have been made, totalling 32,902,000 acres. The people of this country have a real stake in the C.P.R., because the people, through the federal government, have provided large subsidies and large land grants, and certainly because of that they should have the right to see that the C.P.R. provides adequate service at reasonable cost to all parts of the nation.
As reported in yesterday's Hansard, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Abbott) announced that certain increases were to be made in the depletion allowances for gold mines in this country. I should like to point out that such an increase in depletion allowances means an increased value of the capital stock, and the amount of that increase is not subject to income tax as would have been the case, for instance, if a subsidy were paid to the company and, as a result of that, profits were 83166-68i
increased. I should just like to suggest to the government that at some time it consider the feasibility of a capital gains tax.
Getting back now to the whole question of the standard of living of the people of western Canada, I believe it should be pointed out,- and it cannot be pointed out too strongly- that the people of western Canada, the wheat growers in particular, will until 1950 receive a price for wheat of $1.35, which is a frozen price. I would say that it now rests on this government to see that the farmer is not faced with increased costs which would reduce his income and his standard of living. I should hope that the government, after the report of the board of transport commissioners is made to it, will consider all these facts.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: Mr. Speaker, it has been my considered opinion that in this debate it is the duty of members who may feel so disposed, to bring to the attention of the government matters of particular concern to their constituents. I wish to detain the house with only a few remarks, and to a large degree they will be of a general character; but at the end of them I wish to sum up specifically.
In my constituency at the present time the rural telephone lines are working overtime. I recently sat in on some of the discussions, and to say that the people are concerned would be putting it mildly.
There has been a considerable surplus of domestic vegetables in southern Ontario and in my area particularly. I refer to such commodities as carrots, beets, cabbage and the like; there is a large list of commodities which might be referred to. An urgent demand is being made that the federal government should do more than they are doing to protect the home market for fruits and vegetables. I will not enlarge on the caustic criticism that is sometimes heard; but, summing it up, I will say that the feeling of the vast majority of producers in my community is as I have indicated. The producer groups have been very active during the past few weeks in particular, since it is the offseason; and I suggest most earnestly to the government that at every opportunity they sit in with these organizations which represent the various fruit and vegetable growers groups. I can assure the government that these men are sincere. They do not approach the matter from any political angle. They desire to turn out the best possible produce at the lowest possible price.
I have discovered one other thing, namely, that there is a general consensus that the system of import and export permits meets
The Address-Mr. Lockhart

with general approval, subject, of course, to certain safeguards which always need to be exercised.
Passing on from that, I find that considerable alarm is manifest among a great many of the groups of fruit and vegetable growers with respect to the rapid increase in imports, ranging from five per cent on cabbage to as high as 175 per cent on cauliflower. There are one or two commodities with regard to which the figure has gone so high that it is far out of bounds. I am not going to detain the house by putting on Hansard tables showing the trend of these imports. I would, however, direct the attention of the house to reports that have been issued recently by the Ontario
Fruit Growers' Association and the Ontario Vegetable Growers' Association, setting forth clearly how the domestic markets are being invaded. In order to save time, Mr. Speaker, I would ask the permission of the house to have this one table inserted in Hansard. It would save my reading it, and the members could then see for themselves the effect that this importation is having.


William Ross Macdonald: Has the hon. member the unanimous consent of the house to put the statement on record?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Agreed.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: Thank you very much. The table follows:
Comparison-Imports Fresh Fruits and Vegetables Ten Months Ended October 1915-1946
Product
Lemons	
Limes	
Muskmelons, canteloup
Melons, n.o.p	
Oranges, mandarines ..
Peaches	
Pears	
Pineapples	
Plums or prunes	
Raspberries,
Berries, n.o.p	
Strawberries	
Fruits, n.o.p	
Increase

10 months ended October 1946-
Asparagus .. Beans, green
Beets	
Cabbage 

Carrots .... Cauliflower .
Celery	
Cukes	
Lettuce	
Onions	
Peas, green .
Ten Months	Ended	Ten Months	EndedOctober,	1945	October,	1946Quantity	Volume	Quantity	Volume....lb.	1,202,445	$ 53,365	10,677,067	$ 398,848....lb.	2,801.111	277,564	5,643.560	460,9553.555,005	11,135,426	4,645,004	17,443,866...,1b.	1,309,109	317.347	914,210	237.157....lb.	614,142	117,591	906.811	203,399....lb.	85,834,826	3,876,751	120,281,983	4,354.736....lb.	36,836.630	2.712.211	34.463.312	3,024,138477,338	2,736.882	456.885	2,502.2846.851	26,295	12.647	33.598....lb.	13,216.510	680,373	15,6S9,414	794.911...No.	1.436.459	735,473	1,539.929	827,503CU. ft.	9,724.513	22,384.238	9,640.388	22.678.586....lb.	23,331,056	1,464.096	22,089.950	1,277.760....lb.	27,021,778	1,691,097	17,674.721	1,388.26981.749	602,789	252.259	1.346.029....lb.	17,163,442	1,419,984	14,012,221	1,449,263....lb.	13,359	1,979	30,859	5,793....lb.	872,864	221,320 19,173	1,321,409	334.561 39,011
1946-	$8,326,424	$50,473,954		$59,400,717
				
....lb.	807,049	101,997	1.501.443	194,145....lb.	4,139,228	431,413	4,330,278	455.971....lb.	3,968,878	131,581	6,232,026	161,098....lb.	40,989,586	928.593	43,111.535	1,158.973... .lb.	41.987.379	1,256,766	52,425,377	1,569.SOI....lb.	3.339,989	147,903	9,199.846	371.063lb.	29,770,637	2,082,290	40.411.663	1.991.581....lb.	2,370,307	180,057	5,073,760	332,073....lib.	47,000,565	2,077,517	53,627.264	2.095.878....lb.	2,192,952	115,709	27,137.391	842.677....lb.	1,304,746	112.397	2.874.922	222,86266.172	366,799	72.477	442.689476,390	1,336,488	3.254,365	6,826,933lb.	4,454,376	244,712	6,088.995	315.490...,1b.	72,382,118	5.335.626	77,958,039	5.934.133lb.	4,896.664	464,307	10,123.850	725,212

Increase-10 months ended October 1946-$8,926,763
Total 10 months ended October 1946 selected fruits and vegetables	
Total 12 months, 1945 selected fruits and vegetables	
In the first ten months of 1946 imports exceeded those for all of 1945 by $452,104.

The Address-Mr. Lockhart
During the past year, Canadian processors packed about 4,300,000 cases of tomato juice. I do not know whether many members of the house know this, but recently one million cases of unsweetened grapefruit juice were imported and dumped on the Canadian market, and the price went down as low as 62J cents a dozen. In all sincerity I ask what chance have the processors and producers of building up a profitable industry when they are faced with such importations? I say that these are matters to which the government should be ever alert. I noticed in one press report that, out of the forty-six Florida firms which are processing fruit juice and the like, only about twenty are in a solvent position. That is only an indication that this kind of dumping on the Canadian market should not be permitted. Surely our growers and processors should not be subjected to this kind of unfair competition.
I think it is generally conceded by most of the groups that, when fruit and vegetables which are produced by the Canadian grower are not available in the Canadian market, it is only fair to the consumers that they be allowed to have these commodities if they desire to pay the price which is asked for them. There does not seem to be any particular disagreement with that, as long as it is understood that, as soon as our domestic products become available, the market is protected. There is a growing demand for more rigid inspection; in fact I believe it is almost the unanimous view that proper inspection will largely overcome all the difficulties in connection with our marketing problem. I urge the government to make sure that every possible avenue is sought to safeguard the markets for our domestic producers and processors. I bring that point to the attention of the house at this time because I believe that when hon. members take time to read the table they will agree that a serious situation is developing.
What I have said in favour of adequate marketing controls through import and export permits seems to me one way whereby private enterprise can survive. I turn now, however, to a type of control that is proving to be a hardship. This has to do with housing; and I wish to emphasize the need for housing, more particularly for the veterans. The situation in this respect is not improving, and I believe the rather confused statement made by the minister this afternoon will only bear out what I am saying. Notwithstanding all the boasts that have been made as to the extent of the housing programmes that have been gotten under way, today we find the minister rising in his place and making definite apologies for what has been done.
I want to recite a little of the history of the. developments in our city. There we have 102 units being erected by Housing Enterprises Limited, which of course is a crown company. Others in smaller numbers have been erected by Wartime Housing Limited. The 102 units I mentioned are for rental only, and are of three designs. The smallest, having just four rooms, rents at $42 a month. I did not have a chance to measure the npxt sized house, but I *was told that it is two feet longer, and rents for S46 a month. These are both one-storey structures. Then, by increasing the pitch of the rafters and getting what they call twro more rooms upstairs, reached by a straight stairway, they produced what they call a six-room unit, which rents for $55 a month. Perhaps the capital cost might warrant those rentals; I do not know. In any event I made an inspection of these homes last Saturday afternoon. One of the tenants told me that, before any application is received or accepted, the guaranteed income of the applicant is reviewed. This man also went so far as to say that he had to pay the sum of $10 to have himself investigated. I do not know whether or not that is true, but that was the statement he made, and he is a responsible young man. Sometimes it is a little difficult to get information in this house, but perhaps at an appropriate time the minister will make a statement and let the house know exactly what the cost of these homes was, and give other full information. I should like him to give us full and complete details, aiso, as to the conditions under which these homes are made available to veterans, and to what extent they are assisted. I was told at the same time-and the minister might bear this in mind when he makes his statement-that, unless a man has a fixed income, his application to rent one of these homes is not even considered. I was told by one of the tenants that a man working on an hourly basis and earning ninety-eight cents an hour or thereabouts, in a trade where there are occasional fluctuations in wages, could not obtain consideration in connection with the renting of one of these homes. I do not want to put a lot of questions on the order paper to clutter up the record, but I am sure that a clear-cut statement by the minister, dealing with all these points and all their implications, would be acceptable to hon. members.
I now turn to the type of housing being erected by Wartime Housing Limited in my area. These houses are being sold to veterans. I listened with interest today when the minister was trying to cover up the defects, and I am going to give him a little more informa-
The Address-Mr. Lockhart

tion. I am one of those who thought it was bad enough to have a royal commission investigate, but when this committee mentioned by the minister is checking up I want it to look carefully over what we call the Louth street development on the outskirts of the city of St. Catharines, because I should like this house to be given a full and detailed report of the findings of that committee. I made three inspections there last Saturday afternoon. The first home was a small building, fairly well constructed, which had been sold for about $5,000. The occupant thought the amount was $5,100, and then corrected himself and said he thought it was $5,000. The next was of poorer construction, and it had been sold for just under $6,000. The third house I inspected was terrible, and when I say "terrible" I mean just that. Having spent twenty-five or thirty years in the builders' supply business, I believe I know what terrible construction is. When I got into this last house I could not leave it, I was so shocked. It was a four-room house, on which the veteran who owns it told me he had paid the sum of $5,960, as he recalled.
In a vague sort of way this afternoon the minister tried to say that the price quoted for these houses included everything. I tried to get the meaning of what the minister gave us in connection with the prices he placed on record. But this veteran tells me that because of his having purchased one of these homes at, I believe, $5,960, he surrendered certain other benefits which would have accrued to him.
I believe that there is a conflict of opinion in this matter, and that it should be cleared up definitely in the house. The veteran about whom I have spoken last had a four-room house for which he paid the amount I have mentioned. There were no sidewalks, and on the land only rough grading has been done. I wish the committee could check what I have said and get the opinions of neighbours as to the type of places on which these poor, unfortunate veterans have been planted in that area, and in that particular development.
The front door of the house I have mentioned is an inch out of plumb at both the bottom and tne top. There is no storm door, and the wind howls and whistles through the front door. Believe me, the wind was whistling the day I was there. Mark you, this is only a four-room house, but there were plaster cracks between two of the rooms into which I could lay my hand. I should very much like the committee to see those things themselves.

The shingles on one side of the house were completely blown up on end. I asked the veteran what he was doing about it, and he said, that he had climbed up on the roof and had nailed many of them down, and that he was going to surface-nail them. Well, if there is anyone in the house who knows anything about construction he must know what is bound to happen from surface-nailing asphalt shingles. A year from now that man will think a sprinkling can is being held over his head. The nails loosen in the asphalt base of the shingles, with the result that there is a constant drip, drip, drip. That is what this veteran is up against.
So I say, here is a good chance for the government to take action. I will give them much more information if they will undertake to go into that district and look things over. This veteran paid about $600 down; I believe he said the exact amount was S596 he thought. He asked for my candid opinion as to whether he ought to throw up the whole deal. It was at that time he mentioned that he had made certain financial sacrifices in order to obtain the contract at $5,960. He paid his deposit, and he had his four-roomed house. As the minister said today, probably it was necessary to take the action he did if he was to have a roof over his head.
I am glad to see the minister has returned to the chamber, because I do not hold him entirely responsible. Much of this was begun long before he had a hand in it.


Charles Edward Johnston: And a lot of it after, too.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: And, as the hon. member says, there was a lot of it after too. I hope the minister will read what I have put on record today, and have the committee go to the area in question and consider carefully the situation, particularly with respect to this one development.
Then, this poor fellow paid down his ten per cent. He is wondering whether he should surrender his contract; that is, if he can do it, or is not held in some way. His wife has taken work trying to earn a little bit of money. She has taken a part-time job, to see if they cannot see it through.
What kind of security is that, for the man who has gone into the very jaws of death, in your interests and mine, and who comes back to receive all the lip-service given him, and then is given this kind of deal?
During the last two or three years, construction materials, or a large percentage of them, have been channeled into this type of construction. Today I asked the minister about inspection. I have never seen such wilful waste of

The Address-Mr. Lockhart
materials. The materials on any of these jobs -were good. I heard the minister say something about defective lime. That might have happened in an isolated instance, but in the main the materials in these houses were good.
I say that an inspector, or someone else, should be held responsible for the type of thing that was permitted. If something is not done the veteran will never have confidence that he is getting a square deal.
I would1 now point out another type of veteran who has been deprived of doing the thing he would have liked to do. There are large numbers in this group in my area, and what I say will no doubt be applicable in other parts of Canada. I am not exaggerating when I say that in my own area there have been hundreds who have purchased small parcels of land, whether within the city limits on improved streets, having local improvements, or just outside the city limits on selected land which they have purchased and for which they have laid out their cash.
Hundreds of those young men are recently back from overseas. But today they cannot get materials. Perhaps the minister will say that certain priorities have been granted to veterans, but the priorities on government housing schemes took precedence over everything. And because there were limited supplies of materials those veterans could not obtain any materials to build their own small homes in their own way. Mark you, Mr. Speaker, they did not want assistance from anybody. They owned their lots, and had a little money. Perhaps they had friends or relatives who were willing to grub-stake them for the additional amounts they required. All they wanted were materials.
I say hundreds of homes would be produced by those veterans if steps were taken to direct materials into the proper channels. Someone may ask what I would do, or what I would suggest should be done under these circumstances. I shall make one suggestion. We have an army of men of various types running around the country doing a useless job, and it is about time they were put on the production end. I have reference to employees of the wartime prices and trade board. I say in all sincerity it is about time they were put on a production basis-and I do not care whether it is with a pick and shovel, or in what manner. They are travelling around the country today, and it is supposed they are looking for prosecutions. Mr. Speaker, most of their work is persecution-and I say that sincerely. If those men were put in the production lines
from the bush down so that they could get out some building materials they would be doing something worthwhile.
Let me give an illustration of what I discovered last week-end in connection with this great army we have. Incidentally I know the personnel of the wartime prices and trade board in about ten different offices in my part of the country. I made the statement in this house about three or four years ago that fifty per cent of these officials were derelicts. 1 still say that they are derelicts and I base that statement upon the type of men we find doing this work. A shoe man will be running around looking after hog inspection, and we find an insurance man or the like inspecting the building industry. That is the type of thing that is going on.
Let me give an example. Five young men took over a small packing plant in my district a year or two ago. Two of them were overseas veterans with some four years of service and they pooled their resources to purchase this small packing plant which was in operation. The former owner told me that he was fed up with the regulations and red tape he had had to put up with and was glad to get away from it. He told me he hoped the strength and numbers of these five young men would result in better success than he had had.
It took them quite a long time to have their quota set, which was the same as that of the original owner. I think they could kill only thirty-nine hogs a week, but finally they got that quota. Then, with all the restrictions and red tape, only just a week or two ago one of these brilliant inspectors came to this place of business and there was a heated discussion about some irregularities. I do not know the exact conversation, but I am told that one of these men, who now travel in twos and fours rather than singly, I suppose because they are getting short of work, said to one of these five brothers who are trying to earn an honest living, "One of the reasons why we have to come in here in this manner is that in the last six months of 1946, 50,000 hogs found their way into the black market in the six counties around the Niagara peninsula." That was the statement made by one of those inspectors. If that is true, what a reflection upon the ability of the men who are supposed to be doing a job in the Niagara peninsula! I repeat that they are derelicts.
I go one step farther. On another occasion they came into the same place of business persecuting and trying to make things as
The Address-Mr. Lockhart

unpleasant as possible. There were more than one although I think one man could have done the job. One of these men said, and I have it in writing, "Remember we are working for the largest employer in the world, so don't try to buck us." If the small businessmen of this country have to put up with this kind of thing it is time that somebody took a sawed-off shotgun and started to work.
If we stop to consider when the war ended- this is utter nonsense. Why should we have to put up with this kind of thing. Small business is being pushed to the wall as fast as possible. For goodness sake, let us get back to normal. Let the law of supply and demand hold sway. My prediction is that the shrewd housew'ife will regulate her purchases so that the pendulum will soon swing back to normal.
I should like to say a further word in connection with a group of veterans to whom reference was made in this house the other day. The minister made the statement that some relief was being given in connection with rental controls and I asked about the veteran who could not get possession of his house. I was told that it did not matter what class of tenant was in the house, he could not get it. The minister said that if the house had been bought between November, 1944 and July, 1945, the owner could not get possession. He then went on to say that the owner could go before the rental appeal court and endeavour to show that his need was greater than that of the tenant. I think an3'one who knows anything about these rental appeal courts will agree with me when I say that I do not know where any great change has been made in a decision of a rentals officer by the rental control judge reviewing the case. If there are any cases, I should like to know of them. I do not know of any and I know that many cases have been reviewed. The owner will have to prepare a case; he will have to hire a lawyer and produce all kinds of evidence to show that he has more need than the person living in the house. There have been some caustic things said about that type of suggested regulation.
The minister says that there is no hope for the man who bought a house during that period. I know of many cases where the wife of a man has worked on victory shifts and saved two or three hundred dollars. Then the husband has sent home more; the father has helped and the mother has helped. A down payment was made on a little home perhaps in 1942, 1943 or 1944. The young man may have been fighting overseas for his life. Perhaps he went through Dunkirk, over

Normandy or through the long grind in Sicily and Italy. He was not worrying about a house.
Then he came back home to his family who were thinking ahead of time in trying to have a place to which they could go. These homes were bought by the dozen. These men came back from an experience such as only those who went through it know about. They were discharged a year or a year and a half ago as the case may be and now they find that they cannot get possession of their little homes.
If the government does not see the need of extending these regulations to take in these young men, then I say it is doing a gross injustice to one type of veteran in this country. I urge the government to consider extending the regulations, so that these men may get their homes which were bought perhaps two or three' years ago.
Finally, I again urge the government to abandon this present phaotic system of controls, and to devote their entire energies to producing food. Let them encourage the fruit and vegetable men by giving them all assistance possible to produce food for the starving world that we hear so much about. Let them take out of inactivity every available man- and the wartime prices and trade board is the most glaring example-and put them into active production. That is one of the most urgent needs at this time. Let us build up a national income so that the devastating effects of high taxation can be overcome. This, Mr. Speaker, I submit, is one solution of our problem of high taxation.
Mr. F. W. TOWNLEY-SMITH (North Battleford): Mr. Speaker, may I be allowed once more to draw attention to the fact that it is only with extreme difficulty that a great number of members of this house are able to hear what is going on. Architecturally and artistically this is a beautiful building, but I fear that acoustically we are not so fortunate. In spite of all that has been said to the contrary, I repeat that a great many members are not able to hear one-half of what is being said and a still greater number are unable to hear with ease what is said. Very few of us are able to sit back and relax and listen with pleasure, and I do not mean that in the way that some hon. members are taking it. I again ask that something be done about the matter.
On motion of Mr. Townley-Smith the debate was adjourned.
On motion of Mr. Mackenzie the house adjourned at 5.55 p.m.

Inquiries oj the Ministry
Thursday, March 6, 1947