1947-06-27

THE LATE LORD BENNETT

Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, before we begin this afternoon's proceedings of the house. I should like personally, and on behalf of my colleagues in the government and members of all parties in both houses of parliament, to express something of the sorrow that must have been felt throughout Canada when it was learned that, at an early hour this morning, one who over many years had been foremost in the public life of our country had passed away. Had Lord Bennett lived until Thursday of next week he would have attained, on that day, his seventy-seventh birthday anniversary. It has been known for some time past that he was in failing health. This, at his years, naturally occasioned much anxiety to his friends. Notwithstanding, the word of Lord Bennett's death this morning will have come wholly unexpectedly to the people of our country.
It would be difficult for anyone, and most of all for one in my position, to attempt at this time to estimate the place which will be given by posterity to Lord Bennett's services to Canada, to the British commonwealth of nations, and to the world. In the affairs of each of these arenas he took, over many years, an active and conspicuous part. It would be still more difficult, and at this moment wholly inappropriate, for me to attempt to weigh the merits of political controversies in this house and on the public platform in which, as leaders of opposing par-

The Late Lord Bennett

ties, we were engaged, whether in office or in opposition. It is rather of those things which political supporters and opponents alike will wish to remember that I should like to say just a word at this time.
A review of Lord Bennett's life seems to me to fall naturally into three main divisions; the first the years of early manhood during which period his time was given to educational pursuits, to the work of his chosen profession and to the beginnings of his participation in public affairs, in New Brunswick-where he was born and received his early education- and in western Canada where he subsequently went to reside.
The second period was that which has its immediate association with the parliament of Canada, and which began with his election to this House of Commons as member for Calgary in 1911, and which continued until he resigned the leadership of his party in 1938, and subsequently went to reside in the United Kingdom.
The third period is concerned with Lord Bennett's activities in the years of his residence in Britain. It is difficult to believe this period now totals nine years.
As we look, in turn, at each of these periods of Lord Bennett's public life there is one feature common to all three. By it, I am sure, it would have been Lord Bennett's wish to be remembered. That feature was his wholehearted devotion to public service. This is noticeable in his membership in municipal councils in New Brunswick within three years of his admission to the bar of that province; in his membership of the legislative assembly of the northwest territories from 1898 to 1905; in his membership in the legislative assembly of Alberta from 1909 to 1911; in his membership in this House of Commons from 1911 to 1917 and again from 1925 to 1938, and in his membership in the House of Lords in Britain over the past six years.
During his years in our House of Commons, Lord Bennett held at different times the offices of iMinister of Justice and Attorney General, Minister of Finance and Secretary of State for External Affairs. He was chosen leader of the Conservative party at a national convention in October 1927. This position he held for nearly eleven years. For just over five years-from August 1930 to October 1935 -he held the office of Prime Minister.
During the years that his party was in power, and prior to the time he himself became Prime Minister, Lord Bennett shared to the full the confidence of Sir Robert Borden. and of the Right Hon. Arthur Meighen. In his years of office, Lord Bennett took a

foremost part in conferences in Canada and London on imperial and other political and economic questions. In 1934 he represented Canada at the league of nations assembly.
During the early days of the war Lord Bennett gave valuable service at the ministry of aircraft production in London. At a moment of critical fortunes in the war against the enemy in the air, he shouldered voluntarily a considerable responsibility for which he was warmly thanked by the then Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.
Throughout his life, and especially during his years in England, Lord Bennett gave much time and effort to the activites of the Red Cross. The hospital erected at Taplow, Buckinghamshire, and subsequently handed over by the government of Canada for use by British agencies, was a project in which he took a special interest. One of his last public duties was the handing over for the flood distress relief fund of a contribution of $1,500,000 from the surplus funds of the Canadian Red Cross Society.
A parliamentary tribute to Lord Bennett would not be complete without a reference to his qualities as a public speaker and a debater. He greatly enjoyed public speaking, and both on the platform and in parliament displayed exceptional oratorical talents.
Whatever the political differences, those who did not espouse Lord Bennett's political faith will readily concede his fidelity to the causes he advocated, and pay tribute to the public services he sought to render Canada and the British commonwealth of nations.
Lord Bennett's life furnishes a striking example of how one of determined purpose can succeed in the enterprises of life. I have already spoken of his years in parliament, his years of great activity as the leader of his party, and in the office of Prime Minister. His position at the bar was of high eminence. In a material sense he was a man of great wealth. He will be remembered in this connection as one who displayed large benevolence towards deserving causes.
Lord Bennett possessed rare capacities in many fields-the law, education, banking and commerce, as well as public affairs. He displayed great industry in every branch of his activities. It was in keeping with the record of his career that his convictions were very strong, and that his position on public questions was generally unyielding.
It would not be true were I to have it appear that my relations with Lord Bennett were at all times the pleasantest. I hope I do his memory no injustice when I say that as a man of strong feelings he found it difficult not to resent as personal much that is inevitable in the vicissitudes of party political for-

The Late Lord Bennett
tunes and strife. It is hard for any of us in public life wholly to escape that feeling. I like, however, to believe that between public men whose views may be strongly opposed, there is often an underlying sympathy more profound than any of which the public can possibly be aware.
With the permission of the house, I should like to conclude what I have to say of Lord Bennett at this time by reading to hon. members two of the last letters exchanged between us. They relate to his relinquishment of the leadership of his party, and of active participation in Canadian politics. I like to recall at this time the sentiments which these communications express. They will, I need scarcely say, ever be deeply cherished.
The first communication is one from myself to Lord Bennett. It is dated Laurier House, Ottawa, March 6, 1938, and is as follows: Laurier House, Ottawa, March 6, 1938.
Dear Mr. Bennett:
Please permit me to say that I was not a little pained when I received the word that because of the impairment of your heart, you have found it necessary to relinquish the leadership of your party, and that you will be doing so before another session of parliament.
Next to yourself, I am in a better position than anyone else to know the tax upon one's health and strength which leadership of a political party occasions. I have often marvelled that you have found it possible to do what you have, and maintain your strength to the degree you have. I know how deeply you will feel giving up parliamentary duties, even for the sake of your health; perhaps I should say, particularly because of your health. In this decision which has become imperative, I should like you to know that you have my sincere and understanding sympathy.
I can only express the hope that release from some of the exacting burdens you have borne may serve to restore your health and to increase and prolong the enjoyment of your days as well as afford opportunities of public service in other ways, which otherwise might be denied.
With kind personal regards,
Believe me,
Yours very sincerely,
(iSgd.) W. L. Mackenzie King.
The Right Honourable R. B. Bennett, P.C., M.P., Leader of the Opposition,
Chateau Laurier,
Ottawa.
To that letter I received the following reply from Mr. Bennett as he was then addressed:
House of Commons Canada
Leader of the Opposition
Monday, 7 March, 1938. My dear Prime Minister:
It is difficult to express in writing my very sincere appreciation of your courtesy and sympathetic understanding in writing me your note of yesterday.
83166-303J-
Of course I dislike giving up. Anyone who has been through the political campaigns 1 have participated in would dislike abandoning the field. But I could not think of going through a general election and our friends must prepare. My general health has been excellent, but the doctors tell me that my heart condition which was apparently only temporary has become permanent. The impairment is not necessarily suddenly fatal but if not carefully looked after may result in permanent invalidism.
Perhaps I may be able to find some useful work to do that will not involve too much strain. At any rate I shall try. But in the remaining years, few or many, I shall not forget your note.
I wish I had been able to so conduct the affairs of the country from 1930 to 1935 as to have escaped some of the violence of the opposition of your party; I might not have found myself so worn at the end of my term of office. But that is past history. I do hope that you have no such experience as I have had and in health and strength you may be able to discharge your duties and responsibilities.
With grateful appreciation of your note and the kind thought that inspired it, I am,
Yours sincerely,
R. B. Bennett.
The iRight Honourable
W. L. Mackenzie King, P.C., M.P., LL.D., &c., Prime Minister.


Mr. JOHN BRACKEN (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, death, comes very close to all of us when it takes away, one who for five years sat where the Prime Minister now sits, and who for three years prior to that time and three years subsequently sat in the seat it is now my privilege to occupy.
Under these circumstances there will be many who will wish to pay tribute to the one who has gone. As for myself, and speaking, for my associates, I wish to pay, personal! tribute to the man who served this country as Prime Minister during the five most difficult. years this country, in common with the rest of the civilized world, has ever passed through.
When Mr. Bennett was Prime Minister I was one of the western premiers. It. was a time when men in public affairs carried heavy burdens and had to act decisively and often quickly. It -was a time when governments could not be guided by theories, but from day to day had to face practical realities. It was a time when the problems of international affairs were not as well understood as they are today.
In my dealings with him I found Mr. Bennett to be a man of great courage, of great personal integrity, and, above all a great Canadian, one most familiar with every phase of public business from one end of this country to the other.
He felt he had to do some things which were unpopular at the time, but which with the passing years the public has come to understand better and appreciate.
The Late Lord Bennett

Among the achievements that will stand as an enduring monument, to his memory are the empire trade agreements. And among the great institutions which will stand to his credit is the establishment of the central bank, the Bank of Canada.
Mr. Bennett was a man of wide scholarship, distinguished in his profession, a leader in business, and an outstanding parliamentarian. His public career began in 1896, when he served as a member of the municipal council of the county of Northumberland in New Brunswick. It ends now, fifty-one years later, after he had been six years a member of the British parliament.
The man to whom we pay tribute today lived a rich and fruitful life. The last occasion on which I saw him was some two years ago on a trip to the continent. I found him somewhat impaired in physical strength, somewhat mellowed in his approach to controversial questions, but with the love of Canada undiminished and his faith in the future of the commonwealth unimpaired.
I regard it as a privilege on my own behalf, as well as on behalf of my associates, to have the opportunity of paying tribute to one who was an outstanding public figure, as well as a great public servant.


Mr. ANGUS MacINNIS (Vancouver East):: Mr. Speaker, there is nothing much that I need add to the tributes that have already been paid by the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) and the Leader of the *Opposition (Mr. Bracken) to a man whom I *consider to have been one of Canada's greatest men and one of our most colourful political leaders.
It was my good fortune to be. elected at the general election in 1930 and to have been here during the strenuous five years between 1930 and 1935. Mr: Bennett was a man who seemed to me to welcome a fight. He never did anything to parry or ease the blows directed at him. As the Prime Minister has said, he enjoyed a fight. To me he appeared at first an aloof and forbidding character, but during the last few years that he was in this house, when I came to know him better and to know him personally, I found him a kindly and warm personality. I wish to associate this group with the tributes that have been paid in his honour today.
Mr. SOLON E. LOW (Peace River):	Mr. 'Speaker, I wish to associate the group I represent with what has been said by the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King), the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Bracken), and tthe hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Maclnnis). I did not know Lord Bennett

personally', but I was born and reared in the province in which he spent the greater part of his life. I knew of his great capacity, his brilliant career and I admired a number of the fine things he did which will leave their impression not only upon Canada but upon the commonwealth.	I always admired the
great devotion he had to any cause he thought was right. We too sincerely regret his sudden passing.
Right Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Secretary of State for External Affairs):	Mr. Speaker,
may I have your indulgence and that of the house to add yet a few more words to the tributes which have been paid to the great Canadian lawyer,	political	leader and
parliamentarian whose memory will long remain with us all.
I wish to do so as one of the older members of the Canadian Bar Association, in the organization and development of which Mr. Bennett took so prominent a part from its very inception and of which he became the honorary life president at a meeting held in his home city of Calgary- in 1932 over which I had the honour of presiding.
The office of honorary life president was created and Mr. Bennett was appointed to it by unanimous resolution proposed by the late Mr. Rowell, afterwards Chief Justice of Ontario, and seconded by Mr. Campbell Mc-Laurin, now a Supreme Court Justice of Alberta, who had been Mr. Bennett's opponent in the preceding federal election. It was intended to be and was a unanimous tribute to Mr. Bennett's eminence as a Canadian lawyer; but even more it was a tribute to the high ideals he had constantly set and assisted in maintaining for the association itself. He had never regarded it as an association for the advancement of the professional and individual interests of its members, but rather as an instrument to further the interests of the nation as a whole and to provide opportunities to its members to be of greater service to the whole community.
There are many lawyers in Canada who never become members of parliament and who never have the opportunities which this parliament provides to form those personal contacts with their fellow citizens from all parts of Canada which are so valuable in assisting one to understand and appreciate the various viewpoints, social concepts and even honest prejudices that make up our aggregate national conscience.
The Canadian Bar Association brings all those lawy'ers together in periodical meetings where national problems are faced and discussed in an atmosphere of serious responsibility to the body' politic as a whole

The Late Lord Bennett
and from which each one carries away a deeper sense of national solidarity.
No one except perhaps the founder and first president of the association. Sir James Aikins, has done more than the 'late Viscount Bennett to make that body the effective instrument it has become for assisting in the development of a sound and enlightened Canadian consciousness. No one will be remembered longer and with greater respect and esteem than R. B. Bennett by all those who, over the years, had the privilege of co-membership with him in that association.
Mr. JOHN T. HACKETT (Stanstead): Mr. Speaker, a few words may be permitted at this time to one who as a very young man saw Mr. Bennett as he then was, from the galleries of the House of Commons, when he first came to parliament and who later knew him at the bar, in the Canadian Bar Association, and who as a Conservative member shared in a modest way his political fortunes.
Nature was generous to Richard Bedford Bennett. He was strong of body, of mind and of character. His natural endowment was enriched and developed not only by early training but by constant self-discipline; from earliest youth he learned "to scorn delights and live laborious days". He possessed gifts and graces which, taken alone, are rare, but in the abundance and variety in which they were found in his make-up, are rarer still. He had a flaming courage, a superb memory and a copious eloquence. He was a fearless and dominating personality. To his genius and daring in a period of great national peril we owe in no small degree the maintenance of peace and the preservation of many national institutions. His sleepless energy, his resourcefulness and masterful ways in any of the several fields of action in which he was called, during many years, to take part in behalf of country, never failed him.
He was a great advocate. He believed in the law and sought to make the institution of the law workable, permanent and effective. As one of the officers of the Canadian Bar Association, to the vitality of which he contributed so generously, and on behalf of my brethren in the law, and reechoing in part what has been so graciously said by the Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. St. Laurent), I thought it well that I should say how deeply we mourn the passing of him who served, with an unstinted measure of devotion, his generation, his country, and that great institution of the law. In the
words of St. Jerome, he was possessed of magno et erecto animo, a great spirit, upright and purposeful.


Hon. GROTE STIRLING (Yale):: Mr. Speaker, as the only person in the house today who was a member of the administration of Right Hon. R. B. Bennett. I should like to add my word of tribute to that which has been paid by the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King), by my leader, and by others who have spoken.
For a third of a century this great Canadian occupied a more and: more dominant position in our national life, and I am quite satisfied that in due course history will place him in the niche to which he belongs. I am satisfied also that the niche will be among the very great in Canada.
So much for the public tribute we have been Honoured in paying. But, Mr. Speaker, there are in Canada a very great number of inarticulate people who are not in a position to pay public tribute to this man whose death they mourn: those who turned to him for assistance, for sympathy, for advice, for help of a more material nature. They will mourn his death today. In many cases that assistance which he ga%'e started them in their chosen vocation, in which they1 had their opportunity also to serve Canada,
It is not unnatural, Mr. Speaker, that I should look upon my association with Viscount Bennett as one of the great occasions of my life.


Mr. A. L. SMITH (Calgary West):: Mr. Speaker, I crave your indulgence and that of the house for only a moment. I wish to pay my tribute, if for no better reason than that Lord Bennett and I come from the same place, and' I have known him I think perhaps longer than and almost as well as anyone here. In 1898 he came to Regina as a member of the northwest legislature; I was a youngster visiting at my parents' home. At that time the northwest territories had a government. Sir Frederick Haultain was the premier, and the late Senator Ross, who lived next door to us, was the other member of the northwest cabinet. This morning I took occasion to look up some information concerning those days, and found there was only one copy left anywhere in the world of the budget of 1898. The total amount for that huge territory was 8224.925.24. The contribution to agriculture, for example, was 89.485. Much has happened since then; that is why I had occasion to look up these things. I remember that when he came, there was no opposition. I used to run up in the evenings, because they had evening sittings
The Late Lord Bennett

even then, to listen to the debate; and I remember that Mr. Bennett-and this was not unlike him-formed an opposition. The fact that he was the only member of that opposition did not make a bit of difference; one way or the other.
Since then, as I have said, many, many things have happened, and he indeed played a big part in those things. I have seen him only two or three times since he went to England, but I knew of him there from people who came back to us. His home, his ability, his friendship were thrown open to all Canadian soldiers during the second world war. I knew him as a politician, as an advocate; and in any matter on which I had anything to do with him in a forensic way we at all times found him a warrior brilliant and unafraid. In the vast storehouse of his mental equipment I think perhaps his greatest asset was the most phenomenal memory it has been my good fortune to observe. For all the members of this House of Commons, for the staff and members of the press gallery who knew him, I believe it can be truly said that this day a great soul has moved on. I conclude with a couplet by Lord Tennyson in his Ode on the Death of the Duke of Wellington:
Yea, let all good things await Him who cares not to be great,
But as he saves or serves the state.
That was Bennett.


Mr. A. J. BROOKS (Royal):: Mr. Speaker, I learned of the passing of Viscount Bennett only as I was entering the house this afternoon. I feel that no words of mine can add anything to the tributes already paid to the memory of this great man. I do not intend to say anything of his many kindnesses to me when I came here as a young member some years ago. I do not intend to say anything of his great ability, which has been referred to so eloquently this afternoon by previous speakers. As a citizen of the province of New Brunswick, where Viscount Bennett was born, and where the graves of his ancestors for a number of generations back may be seen, I want to say on behalf of the people of that province who were so proud of Lord Bennett, as I know he was very proud of his native province, how much I am sure they mourn his passing. In his old county of Albert many older people still remember him as a boy with whom they went to school; and as I have said, they are proud indeed of this great Canadian and great statesman. Many great men have come from the province of New Brunswick. We think of Lord Beaverbrook; we think of Bonar Law, but I am satisfied that none of our sons will stand higher in the 
memory of our people than will Lord Bennett, and that no part of Canada will mourn his passing more than his own native province.
Mr. JEAN-FRANCOIS POULIOT (Temis-couata): Mr. Speaker, following the various leaders and those who supported Mr. Bennett when he was head of his party, I want to pay my tribute as one of the oldest private members of this house. I knew Mr. Bennett probably better than anyone else, because we were discussing matters all the' time. Sometimes we were on speaking terms only across the floor of the house, but I retain a vivid recollection of him. I remember that the last speech he made as leader of the opposition before coming back as Prime Minister was so long that it delayed the prorogation of the house. He was fighting until the last moment about some estimate; and he was always very active. I remember also the opening of the special session in the fall of 1930, when he was jubilant, exultant and triumphant. He had a large number of supporters around him, and he was really towering. They applauded him very strongly and he seemed to be well satisfied with himself, and rightly so. I did not always believe in his policies. Sometimes he did not appreciate my opposition, but I always gave reasons why I could not agree with him. At the end I had an opportunity to talk with him, and it reminded me of the old days, when we were exchanging books with each other.
Well, having been the first commoner of this country he experienced a great disillusionment. I wonder if it was because some of his supporters were afraid to tell him the truth. I will say nothing about them, but at times it seems to me that if Mr. Bennett had been surrounded by true friends all the time, friends who would not have been afraid to tell him their personal feelings, he would have stayed here and would have remained a great Canadian figure in this country. Because he was unquestionably so. Although he moved to England, he was always considered a Canadian by the Englishmen and all the Britishers who met him over there. I have a happy recollection of the arguments I had with him. Sometimes his blows were strong, and at times we exchanged strong words. But I think of his countless charities and all the good he wanted to do during his lifetime. I am sure, recalling the name of one of his close supporters, that he has now reached the pearly gates, that he has been admitted to heaven by St. Peter; and all our discussions of the past are forgotten and forgiven.

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PUBLIC ACCOUNTS


[Stage Direction]
Mr. GORDON B. ISNOR (Halifax) moved that the fourth report of the standing committee on public accounts, presented to the house on June 17, be now concurred in.
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Justice) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 377, to amend The Prisons and Reformatories Act.
Some hon. MEMBERS:: Explain.


Mr. ILSLEY:: This bill is introduced at the instance of the government of Nova Scotia. It proposes to add an institution to the list of institutions mentioned in the Prisons and Reformatories Act as those in which young offenders may be detained.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



NATIONAL PARKS


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. C. D. HOWE (Acting Minister of Mines and Resources) moved the first reading of Bill No. 365 (from the senate) respecting certain national parks and to amend The National Parks Act.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.


[Stage Direction]
Mr. EDOUARD RINFRET (Outremont) moved the first reading of Bill No. 366 (from the senate) to incorporate Progressive Insurance Company of Canada.
Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second times and referred to the standing committee on banking and commerce.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 367 for the relief of Henry Eaton- Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 368 for the relief of Lodie Kadei Nakel-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 369 for the relief of Margaret Sophie Bolenski Dubeu-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 370 for the relief of Marion Mapes Harvey Allinson-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 371 for the relief of Frances Alice Egg Johnston, otherwise known as Frances Alice Egg Willey Johnston-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 372 for the relief of Selden Grant Stoddard-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 373 for the relief of Elmon Parker Law-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 374 for the relief of James Dewey, junior-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 375 for the relief of Peggy Alicia Stilwell Kneeland

 Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 376 for the relief of Alexander Monteith-Mr. Croll.
[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
Engineering branch-Dredging-
306. Maritime provinces, $819,798.
Mr. MacNICOL:: Where is the dredging to be done?


Hon. ALPHONSE FOURNIER (Minister of Public Works):: Does the hon. member want the complete list?


John Ritchie MacNicol: The areas would be sufficient.	,


Alphonse Fournier: Dredge No. 2 will do dredging at Beach Point, Summerside, Victoria, Grand Etang and Margaree Harbour. Dredge No. 12 will do dredging at Little Shippigan, Miscou, St. Simon and Wood Islands. Dredge No. 14 will do dredging at Rocky Point, Wood Islands, Little Sands, Graham's Pond, Launching and Wood Islands. Dredge No. 15 will do dredging at Vogler's Cove, Little Harbour, Appletree Cove-


John Ritchie MacNicol: That will be sufficient. I was especially interested in the proposal in connection with the draught of the boats at Wood Island. The department is going to dredge the harbour at Wood Island?


Alphonse Fournier: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Dredging-
SOT. Ontario and Quebec, $940,010.
Mr. TUSTIN:: Some months ago the St. Lawrence-Kingston pilots association wrote to the Department of Public Works requesting that dredging be done at Indian Point. A
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short time ago the minister's secretary advised that there had been an appropriation for soundings to be made. Will that dredging be done this summer?


Alphonse Fournier: I find that
dredging is to be done at Salmon Point. Would Salmon Point and Indian Point be the same?


George James Tustin: Yes.


Alphonse Fournier: It is down for
dredging this season.


Mr. SENN:: Is any dredging to be done
at a small harbour called Nanticoke creek on lake Erie? The minister's officials from the London district looked over the harbour and recommended that something should be done. It was to have been done last fall. Does that work come under this vote or under some other?


Alphonse Fournier: Does it go
under another name? I have a list of projects in Ontario here, but I cannot find that name.


Mark Cecil Senn: I think that is the name. I
understand that it was impossible to get a dredge in there last fall. It was a small undertaking, and no dredge could be found to go in. It might possibly be called Sandusk.


Alphonse Fournier: I will do my best to get the information. .


Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: I notice in the
details that new plant and equipment is to be provided. Has the minister any information on that?


Alphonse Fournier: I understand
that the new plant will consist of one new dredge, two scows and a tug.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Where?


Alphonse Fournier: Lake Ontario.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Dredging-
S09. British Columbia and Yukon, $477,258.
Mr. GIBSON (Comox-Alberni):: I am advised that in British Columbia we have had considerable difficulty in getting the amount of dredging done that is required because there were not sufficient dredges of capacity to do the work. Has the department plans for getting any new equipment?


Alphonse Fournier: We are proposing to have a certain amount in the supplementaries this year for dredging which will be done by contract. The construction of a new dredge will take some time, and this work is pressing, so we are letting it out by contract.
[Mr. Tustind


John Lambert Gibson: Is it the
intention of the department to construct new dredges for use out there?


Alphonse Fournier: We have not as
yet decided. A dredge would cost about
81,250,000	and would take some time to build. This year therefore we are having a lot of dredging in British Columbia done by contract.


Mr. REID:: The question which the hon.
member for Comox-Alberni has raised cannot be brushed off as easily as that. There are only two dredges on the Pacific coast, and they are forty to fifty years old. As a matter of fact it would seem that to blow the whistle on one of them might make the whole thing stop. Every district out there is asking for dredging. There are some districts which have been waiting for five years for dredging. Only a short time ago I received a request from a saw mill at Fort Langley in my district, which to my knowledge has been waiting for four years for dredging to be done. I am informed by the departmental officials that there is no hope of one of the government dredges going up there to do that work before June of 1948. I draw the minister's attention to this: two shifts at a time have been put on dredges with the idea of getting more work done. That has helped a little, but not a great deal because other difficulties still remain. On one of the dredges only fourteen hours' actual dredging is done in forty-eight hours, because, as most of us from the coast know, one of these dredges is a suction dredge, and when the dredge has been filled, it takes the sand out to sea. It is a six-knot vessel and so it chug-chugs out to sea and then chug-chugs back and during all that time of course, it is doing no dredging.
I think British Columbia has been very patient in waiting for new dredges for the dredging to be done. During the war when this matter was drawn to the attention of the government-I brought it up myself on several occasions-we were told we would have to wait until the war was over before another dredge could be built. A new dredge cannot be built in a few months. It takes time. The minister has been telling us the same story for six or seven or eight years, and again he says that they are still considering it and that it- will cost $1,250,000. Does the minister realize how much produce goes out and how many ships come into the, Fraser and the north arm of the Fraser as well? These ships are taking out our products to the markets of the world and bringing in much needed dollars or commerce. One of the dredges out there is forty years old. and the other forty-five.

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I ask the minister to tell us how long we have to wait before a new modern dredge will be put into operation. Would he be agreeable to having an investigation made to see just what can be done? He talks of having a lot of dredging done by contract, but my understanding is there are no dredges available on the coast, even if he wanted to have the work done by contract. The one contracting firm that did have a dredge on the Fraser river lost their dredge by fire early in the spring, I believe, and there are no other private dredges available. One of the difficulties about a private company building a dredge is that first of all it costs a lot of money, and secondly they are not sure of the dredge being sufficiently employed either on the river or on other parts of the coast, I suggest to the minister that he review the whole Fraser river system from the point of view of dredging.
The St. Lawrence river has a good dredging set-up. Contracts are let for a period of five or ten years and so the dredging goes on year after year. It is not always shown in the public works estimates, because, for some reason which I have never been able to find out, considerable dredging is done under the transport department. I am not setting one province against another; far from it; they all need assistance. All I am objecting to is that British Columbia ia not getting the consideration she justly deserves, and I am raising my voice as strongly as possible in protest right now. I would like the minister to give a more definite and favourable statement in reply than he gave to the hon. member for Comox-Alberni.


Mr. PEARKES:: I would bring this same matter to the attention of the minister. Last year I raised this question of a shortage of dredges in British Columbia. The harbours all through my constituency are silting up. partly as a result of the topographical formation there. We have high mountains and fastrunning streams which bring down a lot of silt as a result of erosion. I believe we have only two dredges for the whole Pacific coast, while there are about seventeen dredges available in other parts of Canada.


Mr. SINNOTT:: It may seem strange for a member from Manitoba to back the hon. member for Comox-Alberni and the member for New Westminster in this matter. I know something about construction work, and I know from what the hon. member for New Westminster has said that, this type of dredge is an obsolete machine. I know from experience of letting contracts over a period of years that it is expensive. I would ask the 83166-304
minister to consider seriously the discontinuance of the type of machine which is now obsolete and to construct a machine which would be much more economical.


Mr. ARCHIBALD:: What dredges there are on the coast are at the south end? There are none on the north end. Judging from what the hon. member for New Westminster has said, I doubt whether they could make the voyage up the coast.


Thomas Reid: I would not like to risk it.


Harry Grenfell Archibald: The government had certain post-war plans for dredging and the building of breakwater facilities and harbours for fishermen such as at Delkatla slough, Wiah point, Oona river, Dodge cove and Bella Coola. These are necessary for the fishermen on the north coast; that is where the major halibut fleet is. I know the minister is up against this problem. As the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply pointed out, the shipyards of Canada have eighteen months work ahead of them, all the shipyards with the exception of one, a Canadian owned shipyard in Prince Rupert.


Mr. HAZEN:: Two; one in Saint John.


Harry Grenfell Archibald: If the minister wants to make a token payment on this post-war programme to establish the fact in the eyes of the fishermen that he will go ahead with it, he could start by building a dredge in Prince Rupert. The facilities are there; the men are there. If that were done the men would be convinced that they were going to get the facilities for the fishing fleet. That is what I am speaking about. The minister should do this without delay because the facilities are there to build the needed equipment.


Mr. HERRIDGE:: I should like to say a few words on this item concerning dredging on the Arrow lakes which was mentioned the otiier day. For over forty years dredging has been carried on in these lakes. During the war the expenditures were considerably less than in previous years. During one year no dredging was done at all; the dredge was tied up. Dredging is a serious matter for the fruit farmers and other farmers along these lakes who depend on the steamers to carry their produce to railhead.
During recent years the steamer has run for a shorter time each year, that is, through the full length of the two lakes. When the water gets low the large steamer has to stop running. I must say in fairness that the captains keep going as long as possible. Last year they ran until (here was only three feet

Supply-Public Works

of water under the hull. They did this in order to move out as much as possible of the fruit and agricultural produce before winter; but the time of running from one end of the lake to the other is getting shorter each year because of the silting, which is causing difficulty every year.
The dredge we have has been operating for over thirty years and it is definitely obsolete. Under the present circumstances there, in view of the possible development on the Columbia river, I would not advocate any large expenditure on new equipment, but I do urge the minister to do something more. I appreciate the fact that the department decided this year to continue dredging operations as long as possible until high water. I do urge upon the minister that he see that sufficient funds are expended each year in that district to 'keep dredging operations going as long as possible so that the large steamers can run through. When the large steamer has to stop running through there is a great deal of risk of the transportation of fruit being delayed.


Mr. GAUTHIER (Portneuf):: 1 should like to come east a little. The minister may rest assured that I will not ask for a million dollars, but for only a couple of hundred thousand. I should like to know if the project of dredging on the St. Lawrence between Lotbiniere and Deschambault which has been asked for by the hon. member for Lotbiniere and the hon. member for Nicolet to facilitate the operation of the ferry between these two shores is to be gone ahead with. The fact is that traffic would be very heavy if we had the ferry operating efficiently, because all the trucks which deliver the calco, which is a kind of fertilizer that the farmers use on the land, have to cross the Quebec bridge from Deschambault to go into Lotbiniere county where this calco is used to a large extent by the farmers; and then they have to travel an additional seventy or eighty miles to deliver their goods. I should like to know if the minister has carefully considered the demand made and whether it will be possible to give us some kind of answer or tell us that consideration is still being given to the demand made by the two hon. members.


Angus MacInnis: I should like to add a word to what has been already said by the other hon. members from British Columbia. This is not the first time that the shortage of dredges on the Pacific coast has been drawn to the attention of the minister. As a layman I do not think it is up to me to say that that shortage exists; but it is up to the minister to have investigations made and
(Mr. Herridge.]
to produce the information that would prove beyond all doubt that the dredges on the Pacific coast are adequate to meet the need.
I should like to point out to the minister, as the hon. member for New Westminster has already done, that the Fraser river is an important transportation artery and that it will become more so as the years go by. Furthermore, because of the nature of the country, it is a river which fills in very quickly with the silt flowing dowm from the mountains. The minister should have the conditions there investigated as early as possible. We realize that during the war, work of this kind could not be undertaken; that
is,	it could not be undertaken if it took workers and materials away from war needs. But- the war has been over for two years, and there has been ample opportunity for estimating the need and making provision for meeting
it.	I wanted to say these few words before the minister replied to the statements that have been made.


Mr. FULTON:: One last word on this matter, if I may join the procession; I should like to deal with what was said by the hon. member for Kootenay East, who referred to the Arrow lakes where for some time they have been doing work to keep open the wharf and jetty to Arrowhead. So much silt is brought down by the Columbia river that they have to dredge to such an extent that all they can do is take the silt out and put it on top of the pile. There is so much there already that it slides back; consequently it is sort of vicious circle into which they are getting now. An alternative suggestion has been made to move the jetty. There is an old wharf alongside a lumber mill that is kept in operation. If they moved out a matter of some four hundred yards it would take the wharf out of the main current of the river so that the silt being brought down by the river would not pile up alongside the wharf, and this might eliminate the need for all further dredging. I was down there between sessions and I looked at this and spoke to the man in charge of the dredge. He verified that all they are doing is taking the silt out and dumping it. They have so much silt there that is sliding in again. I wonder whether the minister would have an expert look carefully into that question to see if the wharf cannot be permanently moved out.


Alphonse Fournier: It is apparent that hon. members from British Columbia agree on this question. Nearly all of them have spoken on dredging, and they have all complained of the lack of plant and equipment to do the job. The policy of the department has been

Supply-Public Works
to have its own dredges and let out contracts for the remainder of the work to be done. We have three, dredges out in British Columbia, Nos. 303, 305 and 309. We gave out contracts to two or three other firms. 'Last year one of the dredges of one firm was destroyed, but I understand there is still the Northern Dredging Company of British Columbia which is equipped to take on this work. If the need is so urgent that we have to proceed now, and if we delayed too long in building a new dredge, waiting for a year and a half or two years, the work could not be taken care of, and so I propose to bring in supplementary estimates in order to let contracts for the most urgent work this year. That does not interfere with the project of building a new dredge. I cannot give a definite commitment today. If our dredges are so obsolete that they cannot do the work, we shall have to have another dredge, but I do not think they are as bad as all that. We are having, them work now full time. In years past we kept only one shift and now we are having them work nearly all the time on two shifts. We shall try to find means of satisfying every one of the members. As to Kamloops-


Edmund Davie Fulton: Arrowhead.


Alphonse Fournier: I will take a note of the hon. member's remarks and ask the engineers to make a report. If we have to move the wharf or jetty so that it will be serviceable, they will send in a report and we will act according to that report,


Edmund Davie Fulton: Is there anything on file in that connection?


Alphonse Fournier: I was asked a question about dredging between Lotbiniere and another point. The report on that dredge is that though we might dredge the place we could not keep it in good condition. It would fill so rapidly that it would not be worth spending the money there. However, I will ask for further information about that dredge and let the hon. gentlemen know.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Is there anything on file with regard to the wharf I spoke about at Arrowhead? The department did have someone there last year looking at it.


Alphonse Fournier: We will give instructions to Mr. Morton to send one of his engineers to make a report so that we may see what can be done.


Thomas Reid: The minister's statements seem to be fair, but 1 suggest that the plan of dredging carried out on the Fraser river and elsewhere on the Pacific coast is not a good one at all. Take the north arm of the 83166-304J
Fraser river. Located there are, I believe, about twenty saw mills and shingle mills. All the manufacturing concerns of Vancouver have been heading of late years to the north arm. You could keep a dredge continuously for the next ten years on the Fraser river. There are millions of tons of silt coming down the main channel every year, as every one out there knows, and its presents a great problem. The minister knows that. Instead of letting a contract in an attempt to get the dredging done, the department is fighting shy of the problem. It has kept one of the dredges on the north arm, with the result that the fishermen's wharves and other wharves at many points are getting silted up over the years. One of the mills in my district has been shut down, waiting for five years, and they are asking when they may expect some relief. Why does not the department let a contract for the north arm and keep' a dredge there continually, and leave the two old tubs-because that is all they are-to do the best they can in the meantime?


Angus MacInnis: Give them the old age pension.


Thomas Reid: As a matter of fact they are too old to enjoy it. It is going to take a long time to draw plans for dredging, and it will take time to let the contract and to build the dredge. In the meantime the silt is piling up in various spots on the main channel of the Fraser river and elsewhere and the dredging situation instead of getting better is worse. In fact, with the present dredges they will never catch up. I have in my hand the works programme that has been outlined, and without new dredging, on the Fraser river alone, there is sixty-five weeks steady work ahead of the two dredges. The dredging elsewhere, including Victoria and Nanaimo, cannot be overlooked.


George Randolph Pearkes: There is not a bit of doubt about that.


Thomas Reid: I do not know what they will do, and we have not so far received much encouragement from the minister about that new dredge. The situation is not at all satisfactory. I suggest that he should let a contract for the north arm and keep dredging there and keep the other dredges for the Fraser river and elsewhere.


Alphonse Fournier: I will see whether Mr. Morton's advice as to dredging is wrong. I understood when I was there that Mr. Morton and my hon. friend knew a good deal about this dredging and agreed o.n many things. If they do not agree I will ask Mr. Morton to make a new report. When the
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hon. member speaks of "old tubs", my information is that our suction dredge on the British Columbia coast is one of the best that can be devised. I am no expert on dredging or suction dredges, but I am told that it is o,ne of the best in the country.


Thomas Reid: The minister had better look into that again.


Pierre Gauthier: You will
have to get dredges for the east too. We need some.


Harry Grenfell Archibald: Has the department considered the need of establishing the necessary equipment for the north coast separating the Fraser river and the island, and the installation of dredging equipment in the northern part of British Columbia? Under the present set-up we shall never get it.


John Lambert Gibson: On the
west coast too.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Maintenance and operation of graving docks, etc.-
Sll. Esquimalt graving dock, $125,2.11.
George Randolph Pearkes: It is with some concern I notice that there is a reduction of almost $17,000 for the Esquimalt. graving dock. There is a substantial increase for the Champlain graving dock and also for the Lome graving dock, the next item that we shall come to. So far as I can tell from an examination of the details, most of the reduction in, the estimates for the Esquimalt graving dock is taken out of wages and salaries to be paid there. Is that correct?


Alphonse Fournier: There is an increase in salaries from $53,000 to $61,000 odd. The decrease is on the item for repairs. Last year we made extensive repairs at the dock there amounting to $46,500. This year the need has disappeared for such expensive repairs. They will cost only $27,000 odd. We have increased expenses for wages and salaries to the extent of over $8,000.
Item agreed- to.
Maintenance and operation of graving docks, etc.-
315.	Snagboats, $76,990.


Harry Grenfell Archibald: If one of these snag-boats should sink and the men working on it lost their gear, their clothes, and so on, the department takes absolutely no responsibility. That did happen in the case of one boat known as the Essinqton. I do not think it is fair. When a Canadian National Railways boat was burned at Ketchikan, the Canadian
I'Mr. A. Fournier.]
National Railways reimbursed the crew for at least part of their gear. The hon. member for Comox-Alberni was telling me of a bunk-house which burned down and they reimbursed the crew, although they were under no legal obligation to do so. I do not think fair treatment has been accorded to men working for the government. Their wages are none too high in the first place, and when they have lost their clothes, valuables and so on, I believe it would be the decent thing to overlook the letter of the law and reimburse the men for the loss.


Alphonse Fournier: Does the hon. member know whether or not we received a claim?


Harry Grenfell Archibald: Yes, you received a claim and your legal department turned it down.


Alphonse Fournier: The turning down of these things is not done in that way. Before we are authorized to pay out moneys for lost articles we have to make a recommendation to the treasury board and the government. There is a certain policy established. We do not reimburse civil servants for everything they lose. Claims come in every day. I should like to know about this special case, and I myself will look into it.


Harry Grenfell Archibald: I had letters with regard to it. According to the strict letter of the law, the government is not bound to reimburse.


Alphonse Fournier: We are not
legally bound to do so?


Harry Grenfell Archibald: No; but some form of insurance should be carried, inasmuch as these people are subject to unusual hazards which are not encountered by other workers.


Alphonse Fournier: I will look into the case.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Maintenance and operation of roads and bridges-
316.	Burlington channel bridge, $46,888.
Mr. LENNARD:: I notice that the greater part of the increase this year is in operation, maintenance and supplies. Can the minister inform me what that increase is composed of?


Alphonse Fournier: The increase is mostly due to the statutory increase, increased cost of living bonus now' consolidated in salaries, and painting of the bridge during 194748. We paint it every four years, and this happens to be the year in which we shall do that job.

Supply-Public Works


Frank Exton Lennard: Is it done by contract or by the public works employees?


Alphonse Fournier: We will advertise for tenders and give it out by contract.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Maintenance and operation of roads and bridges-
317.	Kingston, Lasalle causeway, $34,604.
John Ritchie MacNicol: Will the minister tell the committee why there is that increase? Work has been going on for several years on that bridge.	,


Alphonse Fournier: The increase is due to the replacement of the office building and storeroom which cannot be repaired. It cannot be heated and is totally inadequate for the present needs.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Maintenance and operation of roads and bridges-
318.	'New Westminster bridge, $43,321.
Thomas Reid: How much money is in the New Westminster fund?


Alphonse Fournier: Estimated free balance at March 31, 1947, $205,232.97.


Thomas Reid: Is a survey being made regarding the long span?


Alphonse Fournier: Mr. Prattley is out there investigating at the present time.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Engineering branch-Construction, repairs and improvements-harbours and rivers-Nova Scotia-
320. .Ballantyne's Cove-breakwater repairs, $57,000.
Bay (St. Lawrence-towards harbour repairs and improvemenls (revote $60,000), $100,000.
Breen's Pond-breakwater replacement (revote, $32,000), $103,500.
Bridgewater-repairs to railway wharf (revote), $15,600.
Brooklyn-repairs to wharf and breakwater, $25,000.
Canso-(wharf reconstruction (revote), $22,000.
Clarkes Harbour-wharf reconstruction and extension (revote), $27,000.
Cow Bay (Port Morien)-towards breakwater reconstruction and dredging (revote), $170,000.
Creignish 

 breakwater-wharf reionstruction (revote $10,000), $24,500.
Digby-repairs to piers, $23,000.
Dingwall-dredging (revote), $75,000.
Drum Head-wharf replacement, $130,000.
Ifeltzen South-breakwater-wharf replacement, $97,000.
Ferry landings at Tiverton, East Ferry Freeport and Westport (revote), $300,000.
Glace Bav-wharf reconstruction (revote '$35.400), $85,000.
Harbours and rivers generally-for maintenance of services, and for repairs and reconstruction due to extremely heavy storms during 1944 and 1945, no new works to be undertaken, $755,000.
Ingonish Ferry-wharf repairs and improvements (revote $30,500), $35,500.
Iona-wharf reconstruction (revote $10(1,000), $128,000.
L'Ardoise Beach-breakwater extension (revote $(14,000), $19,000.
Little Anse-breakwater replacement (revote $52,000), $148,000.
Liverpool-redredging, $115,000.
Lockeport-wharf reconstruction (revote $16,000), $22,000.
Louisburg-wharf, $247,000.
McDonald's Cove-breakwater (revote $20,000), $46,000.
Meteghan-breakwater replacement (revote $68,000). $173,000.
iNewellton-wharf repairs, $21,000.
New Glasgow-wharf repairs, $70,500.
New Harbour - breakwater reconstruction (revote $99,700), $194,000.
Parker's Cove-habour repairs and improvements (revote $125,000), $(130,000.
Petite Riviere-'breakwater repairs. $22,000.
Pictou-towards restoration of harbour facilities (revote $100,000), $200,000.
Pictou-wharf repairs, $27,500.
Pictou Island-breakwater-wharf replacement (revote $75,000), $11111,000.
Port Beekerton (West)-wharf reconstruction (revote), $16,000.
Port Hawkesbury-(wharf repairs, $144,000.
Port Maitland - breakwater reconstruction (revote $100,000), $112,500.
Port Mouton-dredging, $55,000.
Pugwash-wharf repairs, ($139,500.
Salmon Arm-breakwater repairs. $32,000.
iSandford -* breakwater extension (revote $110,000). $118,000.
Ship Harbour-wharf replacement (revote), $15,000.
'Short Beach-breakwater repairs, $46,000.
Three Fathom Harbour-causeway ( revote' $50,000), $52,000.
Trout Cove (Centreville)-breakwater reconstruction (revote $72,000), $176,000.
Upper Whitehead-wharf reconstruction (revote), $-21,000.
West Head-wharf reconstruction (revote $62,000), $70,500.
Mr. FRASER:: I do not know just exactly where I can ask the minister this question,, but the other day he told me he would get-me some information about the buildings' occupied by the film board. I do not want the estimate to slip through before I get that. "


Alphonse Fournier: Perhaps I could just stop at this item. Does the hon. member want this put on Hansard? It is quite a long list.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: If I could have, it would be satisfactory.


Alphonse Fournier: It is a complete list with all the information the hon. gentleman asked for. It gives all the buildings occupied by the film board.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Does that cover the new colour film theatre which is being built for
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the film board? The board has two theatres now,'and another one is being built for them.


Alphonse Fournier: I am informed that we are not building any theatres. If someone else is, I do not know. Those are all the buildings occupied by the film board in which Public Works has any interest. There are two government-owned buildings and there are ten other buildings completely or partly rented for the film board.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The board has two film theatres now, but I understood at the corner of John street and Sussex-


Alphonse Fournier: That would be our building.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Yes. I understood that in the basement they were putting up a theatre for colour films. Is that included in this?


Alphonse Fournier: The only item I see is this: The annual maintenance for the building on Sussex street, where we have ten thousand square feet of space, is $12,146. But I am informed that there is a kind of little theatre in the basement of that building.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: That is not included in this Hist.


Mr. MacLEAN:: I should like to know what is being done at Bay St. Lawrence. I understand tenders were called but nothing was being done. That is a revote from a year or two ago. There is another one in connection with Ingonish harbour.


Alphonse Fournier: I understand that tenders were advertised on May 7, but we received no bid.


Matthew MacLean: Is it possible to have something done? This thing has been in abeyance for several years. Most of these men make their living by fishing, and are in pretty hard circumstances because of lack of wharf facilities.


Alphonse Fournier: I will make inquiries in the department with a view to finding out what is holding up the advertising for new tenders. But the first time we asked for tenders we received no bid.


Matthew MacLean: How far has the department gone with the proposed wharf at North Sydney? I have received a good deal of correspondence about it.


Alphonse Fournier: At one time I gave an answer to the hon. member who has just asked this question. So far we have two wharves at North Sydney, and we are not definite on our future projects there. We are still considering the question asked by the hon. member.


Mr. McCULLOCH (Pictou):: Will tenders be called for the wharf at Pictou? *


Alphonse Fournier: On July 1 or July 2.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Construction, repairs and improvements-harbours and rivers-'Prince Edward Island-
321. Charlottetown - wharf reconstruction and improvements, $50,000.
Harbours and rivers generally-for maintenance of services, no new works to be undertaken, $90,000.
Montague-iwharf reconstruction (revote $30,000), $40,000. *
Naufrage Harbour-retaining wall (revote $2,000), $4,000.
North Lake-pier extension (revote $8,000),
[Stage Direction]
Red Head-harbour improvements (revote), $6,500.
Rocky Point-wharf reconstruction, $9,000.
'Souris-breakwater repairs (revote $45,000), $56,000.
Summerside-repairs to railway wharf (revote), $9,000.
Tignish-repairs to 'breakwaters (revote $45,000), $65,000.
Wood Islands-towards wharf improvements - (revote $30,000), $75,000.
Mr. McLURE:: In reference to the wharf at Charlottetown, I believe most of this money was spent last season. Is it intended to further repair the wharf on the opposite side, in order to accommodate all the shipping?


Alphonse Fournier: That contract was let last year, in the amount of $374,627, to J. P. Porter and Sons Limited; and this amount is to complete the contract.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The last item is an amount for wharf improvements at Wood Islands. It is about time something was done there. To me the facilities at that point are so out of date that they simply discourage any tourists from taking their motor cars across that channel. When the ship arrives at Wood Islands they wish they had not crossed at all.


Alphonse Fournier: We shall be asking for tenders for this work this year. Last year we asked for tenders-


John Ritchie MacNicol: And did not get any?


Alphonse Fournier: We got them, but for twice the estimates of my engineers, and I did not have sufficient funds. This year, however, we have put in an estimate we think will be sufficient to get the work done. If I remember rightly the tenders received last year were for almost twice the amount we had estimated for this job, but I am told our own dredges are working there now.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It is the wharf I am speaking about, under the last item. I believe

Supply-Public Works
the people of Prince Ediward Island would welcome an increased expenditure at this point of $45,000. Certainly it is not being made before it is required. This is a good opportunity to give that beautiful island a proper entrance.


Alphonse Fournier: Here is the explanation. Tenders were called on that item, to be returned July 17, 1946, but no bids were received. On July 20 the district engineer reported that it would be impossible to perform any part of the steel construction by day labour, and suggested that an offer be obtained from Porter and Sons. On September 13, 1946, the district engineer submitted a tender from Porter and Sons totalling $81,275. The department decided not to accept this bid, pending a report on additional work requested by the Northumberland ferries.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: I am very glad this item is here, with an extra $45,000 voted this year, for the improvement of the Wood Islands harbour, and particularly the wharf. Those people have waited for some considerable time, and now that the improvements are to be carried out I just want to say this is one of the most essential points in connection with transportation, especially during the tourist season, when a great many people come there. As the hon. member for Davenport has said, these facilities were not in very good' condition, and were a bad advertisement for the province in general. With this money being voted I hope the. repairs will be begun this summer. Did I understand the minister to say the contract had been let already?


Alphonse Fournier: They are going to ask for tenders in the near future.


Mr. KIRK:: I wonder if I could have the privilege of going back to item 320 for a moment.


The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:: Very well.


James Ralph Kirk: Item 320 contains an amount of $170,000 for Cow bay, I wonder if this amount is sufficient for that work. My information is that it is not nearly enough. A few moments ago in reply to the hon. member for Cape Breton North-Victoria the minister said they did not get any bids for the work at Little Anse. I sometimes wonder if when these amounts in the estimates become known to our contractors they do not simply say, "Well, there is only so much allotted for this work and it is not enough", so they do not bother tendering. That may be one reason why no bids were received in connection with the work at Little Anse; and in my opinion the work at Cow bay will cost much more than the amount set out here.


Alphonse Fournier: I understand
the plans and specifications are ready and that tenders will be called shortly. This is only a partial vote toward the construction of that project. Tenders will be asked some time during July.


James Ralph Kirk: If you are going to ask for tenders, and contractors down there know that only $170,000 is in the estimates while the work is going to cost perhaps fifty per cent or a hundred per cent more, they will be scared off.


Alphonse Fournier: If he will look at the plans and specifications no contractor will worry about the estimate; he will base his figure upon the plans and specifications. We often have these items "toward" some project because we know more than that amount cannot be expended during the fiscal year, so we do not put in the entire amount. But that does not change the plans and specifications.


James Ralph Kirk: I know that, but the contractor knows how much he wants per cubic yard for fill or rock fill or cribwork or anything else. Then when he totals all the quantities shown in the specifications he says, "Well, this is away over $170,000, and I am not interested".


Alphonse Fournier: But if he reads the estimates he will see it says: "Towards breakwater reconstruction and dredging". It is not for the complete project; it is towards the construction.


James Ralph Kirk: Well, I hope the contractors will understand that,


Alphonse Fournier: Oh, they are quite clever.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Construction repairs and improvements-harbours and rivers-New Brunswick-
322. Baie Ste. Anne-towards construction of wharl, $30,000,
Bay du Vin River-wharf extension, $6,000.
Caissie's Cape-breakwater reconstruction and dredging (revote $50,000), .$130,000.
Caraquet (Young wharf)-dredging (revote $35,000), $37,000.
Cocagne Cape-wharf extension and repairs (revote $18,700). $25,500.
Cocagne Church-wharf extension and re* pairs (revote $16,900), $22,000.
Dalhousie-wharf reconstruction and dredging (revote), $30,500.
Grande Aldouane-wharf repairs and improvements (revote $11,000), $14,500.
Harbours and rivers generally-for maintenance of services, no new works to be undertaken, $160,000.
Leonardville-wharf reconstruction (revote $50,000), $70,000.
Little Cape-towards breakwater replacement (revote), $50,000.
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[Stage Direction]
McEachern's Point-wharf extension (revote) $14,000.
Miscou-wharf repairs and extension (revote *13,000). $23,000.
Point Sapin-breakwater repairs, $24,500.
Riehibucto Cape-repairs and improvements to harbour works (revote), $5,000.
St. Olivier-wharf reconstruction, $25,000.
Seal Cove-repairs to breakwaters, $28,000.
Welchpool-towards wharf replacement (revote), $75,000.
Douglas King Hazen: When the estimates of the Department of Public Works were before the committee last week the hon. member for Halifax quite properly brought to the attention of the minister the position of the fishermen residing in a number of districts in his constituency. If I recall correctly, during the course of his remarks the hon. member said that many members of this house did not understand the needs of our fishermen. It is not to be expected that men who represent inland constituencies would realize the needs of these men; but I represent a constituency that faces for many miles along the picturesque but rockbound coast of the Bay of Fundy, and along that, coast live many men who earn their livelihood by casting their nets into the sea. These men look to the Department of Public Works for proper wharves at which to moor their boats, load their supplies and unload their catch; for proper breakwaters which will protect their craft from stormy weather, and for sufficient dredging to permit clear tide under the keels of their vessels when passing in and out of their harbours and seeking anchorage. On one or two occasions I brought to the attention of the minister certain dredging that required to be done at a place known as Dipper harbour, in St. John county, I should like to take this opportunity-the minister need not look it up in his book-to thank him on behalf of the fishermen who reside there for the work that has been done, which enables them to get in and out of the harbour and to look after their catches.
There is some other work to which I would direct the attention of the minister and the officials of his department. First the wharf at the village of Lorneville in the county of St. John is badly in need of repairs. I realize that during war years it was impossible to have necessary repairs made. But as a result of storms this wharf, like many others, has been practically destroyed, and it is important that it be rebuilt. I wish I had the opportunity to show the minister that pleasant village which fronts on the sea, and also the condition of its wharf.
I note that in item 320 there is an item of $103,500 for a breakwater at Breen's Pond,

and also $170,000 for a breakwater at Cow Bay, and $128,000 for a wharf at Iona. However there is nothing for this breakwater at Lome-ville, a prosperous community which was settled many years ago. The people there earn most of their livelihood from fishing. I hope the minister will give further consideration to the repairing of that wharf.
There is a breakwater at a place called Chance Harbour in St. John county which is badly in need of repairs. I do not think it would cost a great deal to make those repairs, and I would direct the minister's attention particularly to the repairs required at that point.
I would call his attention to the harbour at St. Martin's in the county of St. John, where certain repairs to the wharf are required.
If I am in order, I would call the minister's attention to the condition of the lighthouse at East Head in St. John county. The keeper of the lighthouse and his family must reside in the lighthouse building, and. it is in a bad state of repair. Water gets in, and in stormy weather the wind blows through it.


Alphonse Fournier: Lighthouses would not come under this item. I believe that would come under the Department of Transport.


Douglas King Hazen: Under the vote for repairs to roads and bridges would the minister's department be responsible for the road leading to that lighthouse? The lighthouse keeper must take his children along that road to school, and in some seasons of the year it is almost impassable.


Alphonse Fournier: All the requests made by the hon. member will be looked into by my officials, and reports will be prepared.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Construction, repairs and improvements-harbours and rivers-Ontario-
32i. Belleville-harbour improvements (revote), $56,000.
Brighton Bay-redredging channel, $250,000.
Bronte-reconstruction of pier (revote). $127,000.
Cockburn Island-reconstruction of harbour works, $22,500.
Collingwood-harbour reconstruction and improvements (revote), $247,000.
Fort William-dredging, $250,000.
Goderich-repairs to harbour works, $25,000
Grand Bend-repairs to north pier (revote $56,000). $58,000.
Gros Cap-breakwater-wharf (revote $14,300) $16,500.
Gull Bay-wharf (revote). $6,300.
Hamilton-'towards harbour improvements, $300,000.
Harbours and rivers generally-for maintenance of services, no new works to be undertaken. $275,000.
Hudson-wavebreak boom (revote), $6,500.

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Kenora-repairs to wharves (revote $30,000), $44,000.
Kingsville-harbour repairs and improvements, $140,000.
Meaford-revetment wall (revote $29,000), $38,000.
Meaford-dredging (revote $25,000), $27,000.
Midland to Parry Sound-towards dredging inside channel, $200,000.
North	Bay-wharf	extension (revote),
[Stage Direction]
Oakville-reconstruction of east pier (revote $123,000). $157,000.
Ottawa-(Rideau river) repairs to walls and tailrace (revote $18,500). $51,000.
Parry Sound-wharf (revote $8,500). $9,000.
Pelee Island-wharf improvements (revote), $28,000.
Picton-to take over and reconstruct wharf, $10,000.
Port Arthur-dredging. $290,000.
Port Arthur-breakwater (revote $172,000), [DOT] $400,000.
Port Arthur-repairs to breakwater (revote $200,000). $283,000.
Port Bruce-reconstruction of pier (revote $25,000). $31,000.
Port Colborne-breakwater repairs. $25,000.
Port Elgin-breakwater repairs. $71,200.
Port Hope-harbour repairs (revote $140.000). $160,000.
Port Rowan-harbour repairs and improvements, $29,000.
Rainy River-wharf reconstruction, $10,000.
Salmon Point-breakwater extension. $13,000.
Sault Ste. Marie-wharf reconstruction (rerote $25,000). $36,000.
South Baymouth-wharf reconstruction and extension (revote $34,200). $43,000.
Thames RiveT-redredging (revote $31,000), $36,000.	.
Tobermorv-wharf and dredging (revote $91,000). $104,000.
Whitby-towards repairs to harbour works,
[Stage Direction]
Wolfe Island (Marysville)-t.o take over and rebuild wharf (revote). $25,000.
Mr. WEBB:: Under this item I should like to refer to the wharves at government islands in the St. Lawrence. At the present time people cannot use them, and I receive many letters from those who wish to do so.


Alphonse Fournier: Is the hon.
member referring to Wolfe Island?


George Robert Webb: No, I believe there are parks
on them.


Alphonse Fournier: They would
come under the Department of Mines and Resources.


George Robert Webb: Would not the maintenance
of the wharves come under the minister's department?


Alphonse Fournier: The hon. member would get that information from the Department of Mines and Resources.


George Robert Webb: I believe it would be well at some time to make it clear under which department they come. I have approached about four departments, including Transport and Public Works.


Alphonse Fournier: I will look into the matter, but I am not too sure that we own those wharves. The only one we have in that district is the one at AVolfe Island.


George Robert Webb: I have been told by some
officials that expenditures over a certain amount on these docks are handled by the Department of Public Works. I have not been able to have the matter straightened out. Does the minister think that- the care of wharves at government parks in the St. Lawrence would come under the Department of Mines and Resources?


Alphonse Fournier: I am relying
upon the information given to me by my officials. If these wharves are in parks I believe they would come under the Department of Mines and Resources.


George Robert Webb: Undoubtedly the islands do,
but would that department also have control of the wharves?


Alphonse Fournier: Many wharves
on the great lakes and the rivers do not belong to the government.


George Robert Webb: I am not referring to private
property.


Alphonse Fournier: If the Department of Mines and Resources ask us to do work, that department supplies the vote and is responsible for it. I have no knowledge that we have done work at that point with respect to wharves belonging to that department.
Mr. AA'EBB:	In other words it would be
up to the Department of Mines and Resources to refer the work to the minister's department?


Alphonse Fournier: If there was
repair work to be made on a wharf, the Department of Mines and Resources would have the vote and this department would do the work. That would be the ordinary procedure.


George Robert Webb: Thank you. I understand
this is not under the minister's department.


Mr. ROBINSON (Simcoe East,):: I am
pleased to note an item for dredging inside the channel from Midland to Parry Sound. I believe sufficient representations have been made to the minister and his officials as to the necessity for proceeding with this work this year. How much will be done in 1947?


Alphonse Fournier: This is only
a part of a larger plan for dredging in that district- We will do part of it this year, but just what amount I cannot say.


John Ritchie MacNicol: There is an item for Gull Bay wharf. Is that the one on Lake Nipigon?
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Alphonse Fournier: This amount is required for the construction of a wharf for the use of Gull Bay Indian reserve and the Hudson Bay Company post. It is in Port Arthur.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Not in Port Arthur.


Alphonse Fournier: It is on Lake Nipigon, in Port Arthur riding.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That is right. What happened to the wharf? I have been there and know the wharf and am glad to see that it ia being extended and repaired. That is all that is being done?


Alphonse Fournier: This is for an extension of facilities in that district. The industries that are served by the wharf are fisheries and pulpwood.


John Ritchie MacNicol: There are no industries there. It'is a wharf on an Indian reservation called Gull Bay. There is a Hudson Bay post there. The boats that come into that wharf are small; even the largest boat there is still very small. However, I am quite in accord with the vote. I am not opposing it at all.
I have a question to ask about the Thames river redredging. Is this for redredging the mouth of the river, and if so, for what purpose?


Alphonse Fournier: This amount is required for the completion of the contract awarded by order in council dated October 17, 1946, to the Chatham Dredging and Contracting Company. It is to redredge the lake approach and widen the channel at two points in the river to provide sufficient depth for boats drawing at least twelve feet of water.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am quite in accord with this vote. I thought it might have been for another purpose, to permit the Thames river floods to run off more quickly into the lake.


Alphonse Fournier: It will have that effect too, I am told.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am glad to hear that. If this question is not in order, the minister need not answer it, but has not the time come for the department to consider other methods to enable the flood waters of the Thames river to run off more rapidly? A disastrous flood occurred there in the spring of this year, and I doubt if the water has yet run off all the farm lands in Essex and Kent counties. For a long time there have been suggestions that a canal should be cut from near Wardsville on the Thames river across to lake Erie so that the flood waters could more rapidly run off into lake Erie instead of flooding the two fine counties of Essex and Kent. I know the [Mr. MacNicoI.l
minister has an inquiring mind and likes to travel around; I suggest to him that the first chance he gets he should go up to that part of Ontario, to the mouth of the Thames river, and see for himself just what could be done. It is all foolishness to continue the way we are doing. Real vision has to be exercised to plan how the run-off water can be got more quickly into the lake. One of these times, if something is not done to prevent it, we are going to find Chatham under fifteen feet of water. I was afraid of that this spring. The result would be colossal destruction. The minister is inquiring and enterprising, and I suggest that he take the bull by the horns himself and initiate efforts through his department to make possible a more rapid run-off of the water from the Thames river.


Mr. WARREN:: I have been searching in. vain for an item which in my opinion ought to be in the estimates. I suggest to the minister that he. include in the supplementary estimates an item to take care of a desper- * ately urgent situation on the Ottawa river. I notice that the items in this vote deal with construction, repairs and improvements. I want to speak of a necessity of which the minister is well aware, and that is the construction of a bridge between Ontario and Quebec across the Ottawa river in the neighbourhood of Pembroke. The minister has voluminous files in his office regarding the necessity for this bridge, the need for which has existed for half a century but has grown greater as the years have gone by and traffic has increased. It is true we have a ferry service there which is fairly adequate during the summer months, but during the early cold weather, when the ice begins to form, traffic is completely stopped for a matter of weeks, and the same thing occurs in the spring of the year when the ice is becoming honeycombed. It might be wondered why one who is on the Ontario side, as I am, should be interested in the construction of this bridge. But all of us in different municipalities on the Ontario side are interested because for the great body of farmers on the Quebec side Pembroke is the logical marketing centre, and if they are to be held up from marketing their products there in the fall and again in the spring, it is not fair either to the business of Pembroke or to the farmers on the Quebec side of the river.
One of the saddest features about the lack of a bridge is that you can never be sure of the number of people who die because of the difficulty of getting to a hospital or of getting a doctor when traffic between the two sides of the river is stopped. I have known

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numbers of people who just by good fortune have managed to get to a hospital during the fall months when the ice is forming. When they cannot get across by the ferry they have to go around a distance of a hundred miles, and sometimes it is impossible because of the condition of the roads to get through with a motor car.
I know that this is an interprovincial matter and that so far we have not had approval or cooperation from either province. But I am pleading with the minister to put an item in the supplementary estimates so that we shall have something definite and positive with which to go to the officials of the province and ask them for their cooperation. I know it is nothing new. The minister has had recommendations scores of times from scores of municipalities, from boards of trade and other organizations on both sides of the river urging the building of this bridge. The minister was good enough to have a survey made, but, so far as I know, up to now no estimate has been made of the cost. The cost should not be excessive, because by building this bridge by way of Morrison's island two islands could be used, which would mean three spans. In my opinion this is something which should not be long delayed. If the minister would take this action we would be in a position to approach the provinces with something definite and say: Here is the cost, and here is your proportion of it. In this way we might succeed in getting cooperation.


Mr. WHITE (Middlesex East):: Following up what the hon. member for Davenport has just said about- the Thames valley, there were two or three questions I was going to ask the minister in that regard, but since he spoke about the deepening and widening of the bends on the river Thames there are two or three other things I wish to bring to his attention. When the agriculture estimates were up I addressed a question to the Minister of Agriculture about prairie farm rehabilitation and asked him whether it would be extended to provinces other than the three prairie provinces. I had hoped that it would be adapted to the Thames valley plan of conservation of soil. I shall read the short reply that the Minister of Agriculture gave me so that the Minister of Public Works will understand why I am asking this question at this time. I am quoting from page 4319 of Hansard:
The works which were undertaken in the Grand river in Ontario, in so far as the dominion had anything to do with them, were undertaken by the Department of Public Works just as the works on the Fraser river in British Columbia have always been undertaken by the
Department of Public Works. Similar projects all over Canada have been undertaken under votes provided for public works. If there is any work of that kind to be done in Ontario it will come up under the public works vote here rather than agriculture.
When the proper authority is set up in the Thames valley, which includes some sixty-one municipalities in a length of river of some 200 to 250 miles, will the minister assure the people of that valley of the same assistance as was granted to the Grand river area? One of the reasons why it was not entered into at the spring meeting in London was the fear that owing to the announcement that the prairie farm rehabilitation scheme would not be extended to other provinces, the municipalities concerned would be saddled with the expense. They were afraid it would mean additional taxation on their land. At the moment it is too high. They did not want to enter into a scheme which would tax the farmers beyond their limits. The minister will understand that in the past, taxation was imposed on the farmers to drain this land; now they are to be taxed to dam it back. I should like to have that assurance from the minister.


Mr. GLADSTONE:: With reference to the Grand river scheme in Wellington county, it originated with the municipalities along with the provincial government. When the scheme was under way the dominion government came in and contributed equally with the provinces. I think the two together contributed seventy-five per cent.


John Ritchie MacNicol: They contributed 37-j per cent each.


Robert William Gladstone: And the municipalities 25 per cent.


Alphonse Fournier: During the
depression years.


Harry Oliver White: I understand what the hon. member for Wellington South has said. I am presuming that the municipalities will take the initiative. The municipalities would like to know just where they stand so far as the dominion is concerned.


Alphonse Fournier: The Grand river project originated during the depression years. A commission was formed and had plans prepared. The surrounding municipalities agreed to pay 25 per cent of the cost, the Ontario government 37J per cent, and if I remember correctly I believe at that time the federal government agreed to pay 37 or 38 per cent. It was carried out under votes appropriated in the house for relief during depression years. I am trying to recall whether
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the vote went through the Department of Public Works or the Department of Labour. They used our facilities, our technical men, for that project. There is nothing in the Public Works Act which gives any jurisdiction to my department to do works with reference to land. The works we do are to take care of navigation. I would not commit myself- and it has not come before the government- as to any expenditures of a provincial and federal character. That would be a policy to be determined by the government. I would not like to make any definite statement myself on a proposal such as that, though I know all about this Grand river project; my department was part of it.


Mr. BRADSHAW:: Will the minister say that the Thames river work is all for navigation purposes?


Alphonse Fournier: That is what I am told, and that is the report of my engineers. It would help flood conditions, but the purpose is navigation.


Albert James Bradshaw: As a representative of a county which is very much affected, namely, Perth county, where the head of the river Avon, which is the source of the Thames river, originates, may I say that conditions there this spring were bad. Something should be done.


Alphonse Fournier: Perhaps the hon. member is right. I do not know whether it comes under the jurisdiction of my department. If he had been here in the months of May and June he would have seen the same conditions right in this district. One thing I am sure of is that it does not come under the statute having to do with public works.


Harry Oliver White: While the minister has not said yes, there is a possibility that either his department or some other department will take up this burden? He will not say no?


Alphonse Fournier: No; I never put any finality to a question of that kind. I do not know what the governments of the province and the dominion may do to help these conditions, but as Minister of Public Works I would not lay down the policy of the government on projects of the kind.


Mr. BOUCHER:: 
Alphonse Fournier: As to the erection of two bridges on the Ottawa river north of Ottawa, the suggestion of the hon. member is that we put up a bridge between Fitzroy Harbour and Quyon. We did survey a project in that location. The next one would be at Pembroke near Morrison's island. We also surveyed that locality. Our engineers went up there. The Ottawa river is an inter-

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provincial' waterway and bridges across such rivers are generally built by contributions from each of the three governments. Perhaps, the hon. member recalls the bridge between Hawkesbury and Grenville. If I remember rightlly, each of the three governments put up one-third of the expenditure and the Department of Public Works gave the contract. I understand that these are among the post-war projects, but we do not believe the time has come when we can even get the materials and labour to start them. The same arguments that apply to buildings would apply here. There are necessary projects, and I would not be discouraged if I were the hon. member. Personally I know the location very well, and I am sure they are needed, but as to the exact time when the governments will get together and undertake them I cannot say.


Ralph Melville Warren: Would the minister
consider making an estimate of the cost at the present time and, going a little further than that, will he bring in an item in the supplementaries to take care of it?


Alphonse Fournier: As to estimates, we did make a survey of the possibilities of building a bridge at the points suggested and the report, though not final, would indicate that these three bridges, because there would be three bridges, would cost around 11,500,000.


John Ritchie MacNicol: As this is the last vote for Ontario projects I am going to ask the minister to include in the supplementaries something to meet the conditions which are now causing so much destruction along the shores of lake Ontario.


Alphonse Fournier: Requests have been made by several members from Toronto that the department make a survey and report upon the damage caused by flooding in Toronto harbour. We gave instructions to our engineer, Mr. Wilson, to make that survey and report to the department. Before that report is received, though I am sympathetic to these works, I would not dare to make a commitment at this stage. I shall have to see Mr. Wilson's report first. I could na.me nearly every member from Toronto who has been making representations regarding the damage, and our engineer is working on the report right now. In our estimates we have an item for Toronto harbour improvements.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That was not what I had in mind.


Alphonse Fournier: The hon. member is not referring to the damage of the last week or so?


John Ritchie MacNicol: It is far bigger than that. The situation is far beyond anything that estimate would cover.


Alphonse Fournier: But I have not given the amount.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It would not make any difference what it is. What I am speaking of is far beyond that. I was on Toronto island two days ago and -I may tell the minister that a further rise of two inches in the lake level will cover much more of the island. One half of the island is today under water. The situation is a serious one. The minister and his department are not one iota to blame. The reason for the trouble is that we are pouring into the great lakes watershed 5,200 cubic feet of water per second that God never intended should flow into it, and I do not see any hope for results from the works which the department is at present carrying out. The reason for the condition I speak of is the continual increase in the lake level. The lake level is rising because of the pouring into that watershed of water that should not be there.
Is the minister familiar with the picture I am trying to give him? There is a natural lake level, high and low water, and today it is beyond anything recorded in the history of the country. It is higher than it has ever been known to be; it will continue to rise, and there is no way of stopping it unless some action is taken to prevent water from being poured into the St. Lawrence watershed-* water which, I emphasize, has no business to be there. We are pouring water in from the Albany river watershed into the St. Lawrence watershed. The engineers will say they did that to obtain a greater production of hydro electric power, but they did not need to do it for that purpose. All they had to do was to use the power potentialities that were available to them on the Nipigon river. I know they are producing more power at Alexander falls, but they could have made another power house at Virgin falls. Certainly the result is one that this country will have to look into promptly.
Tomorrow, seeing that I have not the time today, I am going to write to the mayor of Toronto suggesting that he take action for damages. The people on the shores of the great lakes have rights and those rights are now being destroyed by this influx of water into the watershed. They can sue this country, and the people all along the United States shore can also bring action against their government. It is a problem the minister will have to look into seriously, and on another estimate, at a more suitable time, I shall have something more to say about it.
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Our trouble is not the increased rains. It may be the result of those diversions. I do not know. Nobody else knows. I do not care what anyone says; they do not know any more about it than I do. Maybe the design of Providence has been dislocated, the flow of water as well as the flow of air. But the fact is that lake Ontario is at a higher level than ever before in its history. I am thinking of the docks which are being built at Bronte and Oakville. I am for them, but will they be high enough? Will any of the docks be high enough? The water is almost up to the top of the breakwater along the Toronto waterfront. The least wave goes over the top of it. That is as a result of too much water being poured into the great lakes watershed. That is a matter to which the government itself will have to give very serious attention. As I said a moment ago, I intend to write to the mayor of Toronto and tell him that in my judgment he has an action for damages against the government of the country-and I am not blaming any government-for the damage which is now being done on that beautiful Toronto island, which is as beautiful an island as there is in front of any city in Canada. It cannot be fully used this year. We had to walk over planks. The trees and grass will soon die out. That is a problem which I hope the minister and the department will look into. I hope they will try to get behind the necessity for raising the height of the docks, and get back to the cause for the lake levels going up. I know they are going up.


Frank Exton Lennard: The minister may
remember that I raised this matter the other evening and he told me to refer to it under item 328. It has come up now, and I should like to tie-in with what the hon. member for Davenport has said and draw the minister's attention to the fact-


Alphonse Fournier: Would the hon. member permit one question? We are on item 324. If we carry that-


Frank Exton Lennard: I have another question
to ask on that.


Alphonse Fournier: All right.


Frank Exton Lennard: I merely wish to tie-in
with what the hon. member for Davenport has just said and draw the minister's attention to the fact that the great Niagara fruit belt is gradually being eaten away. It will not be many years before that low-lying bit of land which comprises the Niagara fruit belt will be washed out of existence if present conditions prevail during the next few years. I know of orchards which were there a few years ago but which are non-existent today

as a result of these conditions. That is just one area from Niagara-on-the-Lake to well beyond Hamilton which is being seriously affected.


Alphonse Fournier: What the hon.
gentleman is explaining has happened, not only in that district, but all over the country. My difficulty is that any damage arising through erosion by natural causes does not come under federal jurisdiction. I am most sympathetic. In my own district I have many cases of the same kind; but I have no jurisdiction over them, and I do not think I would have the moneys with which to do anything.


Frank Exton Lennard: As the hon. member for Davenport intimated, it is being caused to a great extent by the artificial flow of additional water into the great lakes system.


Alphonse Fournier: That is a matter of opinion.


Frank Exton Lennard: There is an item here
of $300,000 toward harbour improvements at Hamilton. Will the minister tell me the nature of those improvements?


Alphonse Fournier: Re-dredging area "A" in Ottawa street slip, to maintain minimum draught of 22 feet and re-dredging and enlarging the turning basin for 17-foot draught, $110,000; to widen Catherine street wharf 20 feet on east side, $150,000; towards construction of additional facilities required in connection with development of the Otis-Fensom property by the harbour commission for industrial sites, $40,000; total 1300,000.


Mr. STOKES:: The first item in this vote is for harbour improvements at Belleville, $56,000, which is $9,000 less than the vote of last year. What is the nature of this vote, and what was it for? Was some of it done last year by his department?


Alphonse Fournier: This vote is required to extend the harbour commission wharf 350 feet in length. The proposed work will reclaim the west half of the present city dump, thereby materially improving the harbour, and will also provide additional storage space.


Mr. COYLE:: Has any work been done during the last year at Port Bruce? I see there has been an increase in the estimate.


Alphonse Fournier: The contract was awarded to R. A. Blyth for $27,985.40, and the amount voted today is required for the completion of the contract awarded on that date. If was for the reconstruction of the outer end of the west pier which is badly decayed and in need of immediate repairs.

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Charles Delmar Coyle: Is the department going to do any work on the Port Burwell or Port Stanley harbour, or does that come under some other item?


Alphonse Fournier: I will look into the matter if it is not in these main items;
I do not know if there is any provision. At both places mentioned I understand that some dredging will be done.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
William Henry Golding: Will the committee be kind enough to turn to item 326? The hon. member for Lake Centre wishes to go to the radio committee. I think we could deal with this item now.
Engineering branch-construction, repairs and improvements-harbours and rivers-Saskatchewan, Alberta and Northwest Territories-
S26. Harbours and rivers generally-for maintenance of services, no new works to be undertaken, $'25,000.
Waskesiu lake-harbour improvements (revote $15,000), $70,000.
Yellowknife-wharf (revote $3,000), $23,000.


Mr. DIEFENRAKER:: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As you know, it is difficult to be required to attend a committee and be obliged to wait for these items over a long period of time, particularly when the committee is sitting. I greatly appreciate your courtesy.
I am one of those who do not make application to any of the ministers for expenditures. I have followed that course consistently, because I believe that there can be no substantial reduction in taxation if we all ask for ever-increasing expenditures while at the same time asking for reductions in taxation.


Mr. COTE (Matapedia-Matane):: The St. Lawrence does not flow in your riding.


John George Diefenbaker: I do not know the meaning of that statement, but I intend to deal with a body of water which, as far as Saskatchewan is concerned, was at one time the St. Lawrence of that province for the transportation of wheat and other products. On several occasions I have drawn this matter to the minister's attention. It has to do with a lake in the centre of Saskatchewan, namely, Last Mountain lake. One and a half or two years ago I brought this matter to the attention of the minister and he agreed that I had advanced substantial reasons for something being done. Unfortunately, however, nothing has yet been done. I asked for an expenditure to be made in connection with Last Mountain lake and the raising of its level, which I think does not come under the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act, but, in point of fact, comes
under the Department of Public Works. I ask that this expenditure be made because it will not be a dead expenditure. It will mean an increase in the productivity of the central portion of Saskatchewan. It will mean the preservation of the finest fishing area in the centre of that province, and also the greatest bird sanctuary there. The hon. member for Davenport knows of the necessity for raising the level of this lake. In November 1945 I drew the matter to the attention of the minister, and at page 2668 of Hansard for that year, referring to what I had to say with respect to public works in Saskatchewan, the minister said:
I believe there is something in what he said about the project for Long Lake and the Qu'Appelle river. I have to repeat that there is nothing in these estimates for these works, but they are kept in mind.
Well, Mr. Chairman, while they may have been kept in mind since November 1945, as the months have passed by the level of that lake has gradually gone down, so I again bring this matter to the attention of the minister. I am not going into it at length. As I pointed out before, this would give work to those who are unemployed. It is a productive public work which will return dividends. It has been recommended over the years; it will mean the preservation of a resource the loss of which to Saskatchewan cannot now be estimated, and it would not require any great expenditure of money. I know a survey has been made in this connection, but having regard to the necessity of the preservation of this lake, connected as it is with the Qu'Appelle valley of which a portion comes under his jurisdiction, I ask the minister once more that consideration be given to the preservation of this resource which over the years, as I said to my hon. friend a few moments ago, has performed a function similar to the St. Lawrence.
Many years ago in Saskatchewan marine insurance was in effect on the ships that went up and down Last Mountain lake. It was the first means of transportation in Saskatchewan for wheat produced north of the main line of the C.P.R. It was utilized over the years until about 1910, when railway transportation made it rather too costly. Today the level of the lake is receding. Successive governments have spoken of its value, but the federal government* passes the responsibility to the province, while the province says part of it is navigable waters and within the authority of the dominion; therefore they have no jurisdiction. While the buck is passed back and forth between the two authorities, the lake continues to recede.

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I spoke of unemployment, and there is unemployment. We have our share of the 1X8,000 who are unemployed in the dominion today. This would be a particularly helpful piece of work from that point of view. It would assure the preservation of adjacent areas which, if this lake dries up, will no longer be capable of use as farm lands. It would preserve this source of the greatest fishing industry in the centre of Saskatchewan. Once more I suggest to the minister that he give consideration to this matter; and I wish also to ask what he has done since November 1945, when he pointed out to me that no provision was being made at that time because the war had just ended, but that with the ending of the war public works proved to be self-liquidating would receive first consideration from his department.


Mr. McKAY:: Before the minister replies I should like to support what the hon. member for Lake Centre has said. I know this lake very well; and, like all lakes in Saskatchewan, it is very important. It is in the central part of the province, and is slowly disappearing. We have all too few lakes which constitute fish preserves, and this lake is particularly important as a tourist attraction. The people of this area are very much concerned about the way this lake is gradually receding. In a matter of only a few years it may be in such condition that it cannot be used for any purpose whatever.


Alphonse Fournier: As I recall the discussion in the house two years ago I can admit right- now that when the hon. member spoke of the Last Mountain project and the disappearance of the water from the lake, it was the first time I had heard about it, and I am still quite in the dark. Does the hon. gentleman know if we had a dam there in years gone by?


John George Diefenbaker: Yes, a dam was there.


Alphonse Fournier: And with the building of the railway the lake lost its use,
I suppose, and the dam disappeared? What would be the suggestion; that we put up a dam there to conserve the level of the lake?


John George Diefenbaker: And to permit the conservation of the waters along the Qu'Appelle, and the ultimate diversion of those waters into the lake at periods of the year when the level is low.


Alphonse Fournier: It does not come under the P.F.R.A.?


John George Diefenbaker: No.


Alphonse Fournier: It has no agricultural use?


John George Diefenbaker: No. A certain portion comes under P.F.R.A. That has merely to do with the preservation of water for irrigation or local agricultural purposes. This type of project does not and could not come under P.F.R.A.; at least that is the attitude taken by the officials generally with respect to the extensive work that would have to be done.


Alphonse Fournier: If there is no navigation on this lake now how could I spend any money there under the statute?


John Ritchie MacNicol: There used to be navigation.


Alphonse Fournier: Then my authority would be that these are navigable waters, and we could proceed to conserve the level of the water for navigational purposes? That would be the only way I could justify an estimate for that purpose. The real object would be to keep a natural resource that now exists in that province, so that it will not disappear as time goes on. You have not too much water around there, I suppose, and if one lake should disappear it might have quite an effect on the whole province.


John George Diefenbaker: It is the only large lake in the centre of Saskatchewan, the southern portion of which has very few lakes indeed.


Alphonse Fournier: This was discussed two years ago, and at the time I admitted my ignorance. Today I am beginning to get some idea of it. I inquired if we had made a survey since 1945, and my deputy is not quite sure but thinks our engineer did go out there.


John George Diefenbaker: That is the information I have.


Alphonse Fournier: I have not that report here, but after this discussion I shall look into it. I shall not commit my department to these works, but I should like to know about them. I want to find out if the spending of money at that point for conservation purposes would come under the jurisdiction of this department. I am wondering if the outlay would be heavy; because in the past we have entered into some projects which cost millions of dollars.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It would be nothing like that.


John George Diefenbaker: That is the reason for the survey. I believe the minister's department has operated in conjunction with the administration of the Prairie Farm
Rehabilitation Act in a general survey. In order to be of assistance, may I point out that

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a committee under the chairmanship of Leonard Plaxton of Regina Beach has furnished the various departments with full information with regard' to the matter. Apparently it has not been brought to the attention of the Minister of Public Works.
On November 29. 1945. I went into the matter in greater detail. I would ask that, in the interests of the preservation of a large portion of central Saskatchewan, something be done. The minister has asked, why it should be preserved. Last year the shipment of fish from this lake brought a large income to the farmers adjacent thereto.


Alphonse Fournier: Would this be a project in which the provincial and federal governments would join?


John George Diefenbaker: There was set up in 1944 and the spring of 1945, a joint committee composed of dominion and provincial officials, who undertook joint public works for the preservation of our natural resources. I believe this project was discussed and was reported upon favourably.
I have told the minister what I said on the earlier occasion, and have given the page number. Perhaps I need not read it at this time. I might add however, that our water fowl are disappearing for lack of sanctuaries. Ducks Unlimited have spent a great deal of money to preserve the habitat and nesting places of our wild life. This is one of them. When I went to Saskatchewan as a boy there were millions of wild ducks, and tens of thousands of wild geese, wild turkeys and cranes. They have disappeared with the drying up of large areas in the province.
This lake, and Redberry lake farther north, are two of the chief sanctuaries in the provinces. That is one reason why something should be done by the federal authorities. I believe the federal government has a responsibility to preserve our wild bird life. There is a convention between the United States and Canada which sets out that everything be done to that end. I advance that also as reason for the minister's giving his best consideration to the preservation of this lake.


Mr. BURTON:: I should like to add a few words in support of what has been said by the hon. members for Lake Centre and Wey-burn. I was afraid that when the hon. member for Lake Centre had concluded the minister might jump up and say that this matter comes under the Department of Mines and Resources.


Alphonse Fournier: I would have, if it were true.


Joseph William Burton: This project is feasible and should be undertaken. I do not care whether it is done by the minister's department,, under the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act, under the Department of Mines and Resources, or under a combination of all three. Indeed I believe a combination would be appropriate.


Alphonse Fournier: The hon. member would not object to our working with the province?


Joseph William Burton: I am certain the province would be willing to do its share. I would take only one exception to what was said by the hon. member for Lake Centre and my colleague the hon. member for Weyburn. When those who live in the southern part of the province speak about anything in the central portion of that southern part they refer to it as central Saskatchewan. I would draw to the attention of the committee the fact that the centre of Saskatchewan is between Humboldt and Prince Albert.


John George Diefenbaker: It is 100 miles north of Prince Albert.


Joseph William Burton: Furthermore we have other bodies of water in Saskatchewan which, in years gone by, I have drawn to the attention of the minister as being worthy of his consideration. I suggest that he ought, not to let those from the dried-out plains of Saskatchewan persuade him that that is the only part of the province. We have in Saskatchewan many bodies of water, and they should not be neglected as Last Mountain lake has been. I suggest that those resources should be cared for. I believe it will be shown in the future that the northern area, which some people do not recognize, will be the basis of some astounding developments.
I note that an amount is to be expended at Waskesiu lake, and that included is a revote of $15,000. This would mean that nothing was spent last year. This year I am pleased to note the amount is $70,000. or $55,000 over last year's amount. If the minister does not make any better progress this year than he did last the vote will be of very little use. Why was the $15,000 not spent last year, and what is the possibility of spending $70,000 this year? I would ask him to remember that we have in northern Saskatchewan rivers and lakes worthy of attention.


Alphonse Fournier: Tenders will be asked for this work within a month.
Then, replying to the hon. member for Lake Centre I would say I am not sure that this comes completely under our jurisdiction. However, this matter is of such great interest that, with the assurance given by the hon.
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member for Humboldt that the government of Saskatchewan would be willing to study and perhaps to help in this connection, I shall ask our engineer out there to give an estimate. If we have jurisdiction I will try to convince some of my colleagues that this work should be done, especially as the hon. member says there is unemployment in that district. If we have reached the stage where we can start on our post-war projects, this is one in which I would be interested. I am not committing myself, but I am more than interested, and if I go out west in the near future I shall visit that part of the country and see the conditions for myself.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I rise to support the plea of the hon. member for Lake Centre, for this is a part of the western provinces which it became necessary for me to make a fairly substantial survey of in connection with the programme to divert waters from the South Saskatchewan river down the Qu'Appelle valley. If the minister will get in touch with the P.F.R.A. engineers-I believe there are some in the confederation building-he will find that they have plans-at least they have them in Regina, and I presume they sent copies here-of what the P.F.R.A. has in mind to do later on. They propose to divert some water down the Qu'Appelle river from the dam they propose to construct near the elbow, for the purpose of irrigation and for the purpose of providing water for domestic use in the cities of Moose Jaw and Regina.
The minister wondered what place his department would have in that programme. His department would have a part in that programme. The P.F.R.A. would deliver the water. Their plans call for diverting some of that water into Long lake to do what my hon. friend the member for Lake Centre has been asking for, to raise the elevation of Long lake, which years ago was higher than it is today. Boats used to operate on that lake many years ago. It was the only means of transportation for a large volume of materials in the early years. The minister's department would at least have control of the dam at the outlet of the lake, which, if constructed for transportation, too, would have locks in it. I believe that will come, because the P.F.R.A. have already created, close to Long lake, a very large body of water which is called Buffalo Pound lake. They have erected other dams in the valley where they have a series of lakes called generally the Qu'Appelle lakes. I presume that the engineers of P.F.R.A. visualize some years hence a certain amount of transportation in that valley, and if that ever comes, navigation works will be constructed by the department of the minister.

The hon. member for Lake Centre has touched on an important result that would follow from the elevation of Long lake, namely the conservation of wild life, for which that area is very suitable. Raising the level of the lake would have a big influence on all that part of the province from the point of view of both recreation and conservation, and the hon. member for Lake Centre deserves credit for the energy he has put into advocating this project for several sessions now.
I suggest to the minister that if he goes west this summer, as he said a few moments ago he contemplated doing, he take time off to visit Moose Jaw and drive directly north from there by motor through a very nice part of the country. As he motors north he will pass by Buffalo Pound lake, an artificial lake created by the P.F.R.A. engineers, who will go with him and show him their full proposals for the elevation of Long lake level. Once that work is done, it will come under the control of the minister because there will be a navigable lake, which, of course, would be under the jurisdiction of this government. After the minister has made his trip out west, I am sure that he will come back and have something in his estimates for this project. I presume it will have to be in cooperation with the P.F.R.A., because the P.F.R.A. would have to cooperate with the Department of Public Works and integrate their plans. The two go together. I strongly support the recommendation of the hon. member for Lake Centre.


Mr. JAQUES:: I would draw the minister's attention to the condition of the pier in Pigeon lake. This pier was built by the federal Department of Public Works just before the war, and my information is that because of neglect, unless repairs are soon made to the pier it will be past repairing. Its present condition is due more than anything else to ice conditions, but I am informed by local authorities that those conditions could be overcome. I know the pier myself. Pigeon lake is the main lake south of Edmonton. To thousands of visitors who go there the pier means a great deal. I notice that there is no item in the estimates for the repair of this pier.


Alphonse Fournier: Do I understand that the government owns the pier on Pigeon lake?


Norman Jaques: I do not know that, but I know that the Department of Public Works under the minister's predecessor built the pier just before the war, and so far as I know, no repairs have since been made to it. As a consequence, the pier is in very bad

Supply-Public Works
shape. It cost in the neighbourhood of $15,000, if I remember rightly. Pigeon lake is the main pleasure resort south of Edmonton and the pier is of great use to thousands of visitors.


Alphonse Fournier: I will send out an engineer and have a report made. If it is one of our constructions we shall try to keep it in a good state of repair.


Norman Jaques: Thank you.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Engineering branch-construction, repairs and improvements-harbours and rivers-'British Columbia and Yukon-
327. Alert Bay-breakwater (revote $30,000), $30,000.
Bella Bella-wharf renewal (revote), $34,000.
Bella Coola-wharf replacement (revote $94,300), $146,000.
Campbell river-wharf repairs, $35,000.
Columbia river-protection work, $24,000.
Davis bay

wharf repairs and improvements (revote), $16,000.
Fraser river-improvements (revote), $175,000.
Fraser river-protection work on Lulu and Sea islands (revote $23,000), $28,000.
Fraser river-reconstruction of North Arm jetty (revote $1115,000), $120,000.
Gibson's Landing-wharf reconstruction (revote $50,000), $65,000.
Harbours and rivers generally-for maintenance of services, no new works to be undertaken, $325,000.
Nanaimo-harbour improvements (revote $60,000), $63,000.
Nanaimo-wharf repairs and improvements (revote), $18,000.
Penticton-breakwater replacement, $16,500.
Port Alberni-harbour improvements (revote $123,000), $185,000.
Prince Rupert-construction, and renewal of fishermen's floats-(revote $22,000), $62,000.
Prince Rupert (Digby island), wharf repairs -i(revote), '$18,000.
Queen Charlotte City-wharf repairs and extension (revote $16,000), $18,000.
Sidney-reconstruction of approach and repairs to ferry slip, $38,000	.
iSteveston No. 2 road-wharfage facilities (revote), $16,000.
iStewart-wharf repairs (revote), $32,000.
Ucluelet West-wharf improvements-'(revote $8,500), $11,000.
Vananda-wharf extension, freight shed and repairs (revote '$7,500), $8,500.
Victoria-towards dredging-(revote), $100,000.
Victoria-fishing harbourage (revote $67,000),
[Stage Direction]
Westview-replacing fishing harbourage-(revote $305,000), $316,000.
George Randolph Pearkes: Regarding the item for the reconstruction of approach and repairs to the ferry slip at Sidney, I would urge on the minister the necessity of having this work done at the earliest possible opportunity. The amount of traffic coming into that port has been growing considerably every year. It
takes away from the congestion of the facilities at Victoria. The urgency of a work has been emphasized, not only by the Sidney board of trade, but also by the board of trade at Victoria. There are ferry services coming from the state of Washington and from the mainland of British Columbia where it is the shortest sea journey between the island of Vancouver and the mainland of the province. There is communication between Sidney and all the gulf islands, so that there are ships coming in continually with farmers' produce and other supplies. There are hundreds of cars moved over that approach every week during the summer season. For a long time notices have been put up that this approach is unsafe or is to be used only at the owner's risk, owing to the state of disrepair into which it has fallen. The fact that the great terminal of the T.C.A. is only a mile away at Patricia Bay enhances the importance of this particular port. Furthermore, the port services are putting on new and better facilities this year, with the result that the traffic will still be increased, and it is imperative, before the height of the tourist season comes, that something Should be done to repair this particular approach.
I should also like to say that, in order that this work may be of a permanent nature and not have to be repaired every year, it would be most desirable to construct a breakwater just to the south of where the ferry approach now is. That has been given consideration for a number of years, but new suggestions have been made as to the type of breakwater which would make this repair work permanent. I would urge the minister to have this situation reviewed during the coming year, with the idea of seeing whether it would not be possible to erect a breakwater just south of where the ferry approach now is, in order to make permanent the work which he is now putting in, work which is absolutely essential for that growing community.


John Lambert Gibson: I should
like to say a few words to the minister with regard to British Columbia generally. Probably the committee has heard quite a lot about that province, but I think it is about time that the public works department and other departments of government got a new appreciation of the way in which British Columbia has been growing in the past ten years and particularly since the war. The growth of the population in that province is acknowledged to be the greatest of any part of Canada. As a matter of fact we have not been in such close contact with the federal government through the medium of the public works department and other public services for as many years as some
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of the other provinces. A lot of the work in the construction of piers and breakwaters and that type of thing went on in the maritime provinces, in Ontario and in Quebec many years ago. I say to my hon. friends from the maritimes that I do not begrudge them one dollar that they have received in the past. I do not think they have had enough.
However I wish to point out to the minister that Vancouver island particularly, of which the hon. member for Nanaimo and the hon. member for Victoria have spoken, is one of the places that has developed most rapidly. I could point out to him the necessity of many public works. We are now beyond the item where we are discussing post offices. I am sure that all throughout my riding- and this applies equally to the whole of Vancouver island-the growth of population is such that it is almost a public disgrace what they have to put up with in the line of post office accommodation. So far as breakwaters are concerned, we are in most difficult circumstances.
There is one particular item that I should like to mention. I have discussed it with the minister. I refer to the question of a breakwater for Campbell River. He has heard about that. I would also point out to him the request of the board of trade of Qualicum and the board of trade of Tofino. I am hoping that an item will be placed in the supplementary estimates to give some kind of protection to the wharf at Forde's cove on Hornby island. Actually the difficulty is that every winter they have to move the floats, or else they will wash out.
I notice that there is an item in the estimates for wharf extension at Vananda. There is a revote of $7,500. This is one of the places which has had very rapid development, both in logging and in the operations of the Pioneer Gold Mines. They are carrying on a very large development. The Pioneer Gold Mines have spent $300,000, and their request has been for a more substantial dock over which they could take some of their heavy machinery. They require this improvement to land machinery in order to put in a mill on the property. This year the sum of $8,500 is being appropriated, of which $7,500 is a revote. This will provide, I imagine, a new deck or a few new piles for that dock.
I am hopeful that the requirements of this port will be looked after, so that the residents will have more adequate facilities.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I want to express the
appreciation of some of my constituents in the outlying areas for what has been done with regard to wharf repairs in the past years. One or two new floats have been built. We appreciate the policy of the government in
lMr. G. L. Gibson.]
assisting the people who have located in these out-of-the-way places. We have a number of people whose only means of transportation is by steamer, and they very much appreciate money being spent to assist people in these out-of-the-way places. I think everything possible should be done to encourage these people who are willing to go into the backwoods to make a living. At the same time I wish to express the appreciation of the people for what is being done by the minister for these settlers. During the past year much of the work could not be done because of the shortage of labour and material. We know that your officials did attempt to secure the materials, and that they were partly successful and finally were abie to build the few structures which were erected during the past year.
I want to draw particularly to the minister's attention the urgent necessity for wharves at three or four places. The first I would mention is that of Trail. During recent years there has been an increase in tourist traffic. I think the minister has some knowledge of this. Many tourists come up from the United States by boat and go into the Arrow lakes. One needs to remember that the city of Trail has an annual production of some $60 million, which adds greatly to the revenue of this country. The municipality, the board of trade, the com-merical organizations and all the industries served there are anxious to have some structure erected, so that boats can land in coming up the river. I know a good deal about this, although I am not an engineer. I know the department might hesitate to spend a great deal of money on a structure because of the possibility of developments in the river in the near future, but I suggest that a float could be built which would serve the purpose at Trail for a, few years, and later it could, be towed up the river and into the lake and used as a floating wharf where replacement was necessary at one of the smaller points. I offer the suggestion to the minister.
Then there is a wharf required, in Lardeau, the entrance to the Lardeau valley. Since the early days there has been a very narrow wharf, about ten feet wide. It was erected originally by the Canadian Pacific Railway Company and is now in a state of disrepair or decay. Large quantities of lumbering machinery, mining machinery, heavy materials, groceries and so on move over this wharf. They have to be dumped out on this wharf and carted out by hand some distance over the ground to the road. These people who use the wharf are developing this country. I urge the minister and his officials to give consideration to the needs of these people.

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I also hope the minister will consider the requirements of the city of Nelson. I do not know what arrangements are being made, but he knows the situation well. There is a demand there for some improvement in the wharf facilities; a new structure is urgently required.
One final plea. I wish to refer to the question of a very small wharf or float that is required, by the small settlement of Dean's Haven. This is a small Veterans Land Act settlement consisting of twenty-five or thirty people. These men have offered to do the work on these wharves for a minimum of expenditure, and. I think the department should be a.s generous as possible to them, seeing that they have gone into the backwoods in an attempt to establish homes for themselves and to develop a small lumber industry. I am interested in noting in the estimates an item of $24,000 for protection work on the Columbia river. Where is that, work to be done?


Grote Stirling: Can the minister say what, progress has been made in implementing the report of the joint engineers on the Okanagan flood control? I am not going to make a speech on the subject, although there is plenty of material. The minister will recall that a joint committee of engineers of the dominion and provincial governments was set up in 1943 and duly reported, making its recommendations. This came about after public meetings and public hearings and after a considerable amount, of damage had been done to 100 miles of the lower Okanagan valley as a consequence of the flooding of Okanagan lake. The dominion government is interested in the matter because of the navigability of the water and because, for many years it has operated the control work at the south end of the lake. That control work is inadequate for its purpose, and the tortuous course of the Okanagan river makes it impossible for the flood water to be carried off safely. The municipalities and everyone in the district were extremely interested when this joint committee was set up, but now we want to know what progress will be made with the acceptance or otherwise of the recommendations in the report. I hope the minister will be able to tell me that, meetings will be held between him and the provincial government for the purpose of deciding what will be done.


Alphonse Fournier: In 1943 a joint committee or commission did make a report. At the time I looked over the report, and it is quite a project, involving a considerable amount. The last I heard was that they want us to appoint, without committing the government, someone from the department or the government to continue discussions on the feasibility of an agreement to be made between the British Columbia government and these people. I understand that we shall be sending our representative the moment we hear from them. As a matter of fact, the date was fixed, but the three parties could no come together at the same time. I has-been fixed now for September of this year when the representatives of the three sides will meet.


Grote Stirling: Will the minister be good enough to follow this matter up? It is a question affecting a difficulty that has been apparent for many years, and at last, when the committee reports that there is something tangible to lay hold of, I would ask the minister to see to it that, the representative of the dominion meets with the province for the purpose of coming to a conclusion.


Alphonse Fournier: I will attend to that myself.


Harry Grenfell Archibald: Has the minister anything to say with regard to the completion of the road between Jasper and Prince George?


Alphonse Fournier: That comes under the Department of Mines and Resources.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Can the minister answer the question I asked him?


Alphonse Fournier: My officials will take a note of every request made by the hon. gentlemen. I did not get every name he mentioned, but the moment a request is made our engineers make a note of it. They will look into the different projects and report upon the necessity for those that are new; and, as regards maintenance or repairs, we shall see that they are done.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Engineering branch-construction, repairs and improvements-harbours and rivers-generally-
328. Protection works generally-to provide for remedial works where damages are caused by or endanger navigation or federal government structures, $100,000.
Winfield Chester Scott McLure: This is for protection of
government property generally across Canada. Under this vote last year, the people in my district, known as the harbour district, applied for protection to their own property and, also to the lighthouse at North Rustico. I thought the protection vote would give them the opportunity this year, because in case of a storm they are likely to lose the whole of that protection where there is the greatest fishing station on Prince Edward Island. Last
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year the Department of Public Works began an experiment for protection, and it is all satisfactory while there are no 'great storms, but when there was a fairly heavy storm it was swept away. The people are looking to the Department of Public Works this year to get the protection they desire for their fishing property and also for the lighthouse.
(Translation):


Mr. HEON:: Would the hon. minister tell us, in French, what he intends to do in view of the floods that have taken place this year and which, apparently, changed the whole problem of protection? Am I to understand that this sum of $100,000 is the final amount?


Alphonse Fournier: For the whole country.


Georges-Henri Héon: Even with the floods?


Alphonse Fournier: We have no jurisdiction in the matter of damages caused by floods. This estimate is for protection measures against erosion caused by navigation or government works, nothing else.


Georges-Henri Héon: Very well. Take the Grenville to Hawkesbury bridge, for example, an interprovincial structure, which comes under your jurisdiction. Suppose it has been damaged by this year's floods. What would you do?


Alphonse Fournier: If it belonged to us, we would repair it.


Georges-Henri Héon: Would you please repair the approaches to the bridge if it belongs to you? I know, Mr. Minister, that several hon. members have blamed you and that these criticisms are far from being a credit to you.
(Text):


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Telegraph branch
[Stage Direction]
SS0. Telephone service at Ottawa, $355,000.
John Lambert Gibson: Has the minister anything to do with the administration of telephone facilities in the house? We cannot sleep here all night, though we stay most of the night, but we have home addresses. When long-distance telephone calls come through to us they are normally referred to the number 2-8211, which, I gather, is the general humber for the House of Commons. There the call ends and nothing else happens to it. I was wondering whether there is any way, if this is under the minister's department, of checking up to ensure that people who telephone us long distance shall eventually get hold of us in the house. Incidentally this telephone message came in to 
me at 7.35 last night and was referred to the House of Commons, and that was the end of it. I did not get it until I got down to the Chateau Laurier four hours later.


Georges-Henri Héon: Am I to understand that the hon. member has a private telephone number?


John Lambert Gibson: I have a private room with a telephone.


Mr. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Ontario):: I notice a substantial increase in item 330. I should like to understand it a little better, if the minister can explain it. In the first place, I have not quite made out What telephone service at Ottawa covers. Is it payment to the telephone company? If so, I think the question raised by the hon. member for Comox-Alberni is quite relevant.


Alphonse Fournier: The increase in this vote is due to the fact that a large number of telephones formerly charged to the vote for demobilization and reconversion during the war have been transferred to the normal activities of the Department of Public Works. In years gone by, the amount of $190,000 was taken out of the war appropriation general vote to pay for those telephones. It has now been put under the regular vote for telephones in my department.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Does that mean, contrary to what I would have expected at any rate, that when the war business came to an end or lessened and this transfer came to be made-	.


Alphonse Fournier: The hon. member will find a further item on demobilization there decreased by $200,000 in my own estimates. It is a transfer of these new buildings. During the war these temporary and new buildings expenses for maintenance and so forth, were taken under the war appropriation and demobilization votes. Now we are trying to cut out the demobilization votes. There are only a few left in my department. The ones which are brought forward here are in the buildings which will continue in use for years to come.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: To my simple mind, $190,000 is a great deal of money-


Alphonse Fournier: It is not an increase in expenditure.
Mr. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Ontario: Will the minister allow me to finish?


Alphonse Fournier: I want the hon. member to understand it is not an increase in expenditure. It is a transfer.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: If the minister will allow me to finish, per-

Supply-Public Works
haps we shall be quite clear between us. Do I understand that, although there is a $190,000 increase there by reason of the transfer the minister has described, nevertheless the total amount originally spent when war services were at their peak was this $190,000, plus $200,000 more; in other words, that, while there is a $190,000, increase here, nevertheless there is an over-all decrease of $200,000. Is that correct?


Alphonse Fournier: No. I understand that there is a decrease of $10,000. We took the $200,000 that was under the war vote and dropped it, and the $190,000 we brought in the ordinary estimates.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Then may I again express some surprise and ask this question? I will put it this way, but maybe the minister would rather have it put some other way. I will make it as convenient as I can. However, let us put it this way. I should like to know what these war services were and why it is, when they seem to have come to an end that, out of an amount of $200,000 there is a reduction of only $10,000? It seems surprising to me if those services have come to an end, Or does the minister merely mean that the name has been changed?


Alphonse Fournier: I mean that the departments which came under war appropriations-


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Will the minister specify? Will he give the names of the departments?


Alphonse Fournier: The hon. member understands my position. We give service to the existing departments. When they need new telephones installed, we get the request, get in touch with the company and have them installed. Before these telephones are put in, they must be authorized by parliament. I can give the hon. member the list in the way in which it appears here. We have actually 5,467 telephones. We are paying over to the Bell Telephone Company $105,000 for exchange equipment; exchange operators, $40,000; House of Commons-


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Is that $105,000 a capital amount?


Alphonse Fournier: No. Those are continuing services. I am trying to give the amounts we pay to the Bell Telephone Company. For those 5,467 telephones we pay $173,721.70; $105,000 for exchange equipment, that is, the records they have on their equipment; private branch exchange operators, $40,000; House of Commons, sessional
service, $4,500. That covers every department of government where telephones are used.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I still think there is something here which requires some explanation. Broadly speaking, what the minister suggested was that we had this increase of $190,000 because we were now changing the charge, so to speak, for the previous war departments. The war departments are supposed to be greatly diminished in size, and I think it would be reasonable to let us find just what those departments are which were included in this amount, and whether or not they have been diminished. If the minister would like to let this item stand and give those figures later, that will be satisfactory.


Alphonse Fournier: Oh, no.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I do not want to let this go without an explanation.


Alphonse Fournier: I have the whole explanation. I shall not be any wiser tonight or on Monday. I have the whole report here from the department.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: A11 right.


Alphonse Fournier: This is what is said in the report of the general superintendent of telegraphs: This js a decrease of $10,000 in the total amount required for 1947-48. There is an increase of $190,000 in the public works vote and a decrease of $200,000 in the demobilization vote. This is due to the fact that telephones previously charged to the war appropriation will be charged to public works general vote as from April 1, 1947.
National defence office telephones which were charged to the demobilization for war appropriation is now considered as a permanent department and' comes under our general vote and not under the war appropriation.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Yes, but-


Alphonse Fournier: There is $10,000 less expenditure-


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Yes, I understand that.


Alphonse Fournier: -for this year than for last year.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I should like to know, if the minister has the figures, how many people there are. We have been told a great deal about the reduction in personnel. How many people are there in
Supply-Public Works

these departments to be served now as compared with a year ago, for instance? Has the minister those figures?


Alphonse Fournier: I would have to ask the civil service commission. I have not the figures for national defence.
(Translation):


Georges-Henri Héon: Who signed the report just read by my hon. friend?


Alphonse Fournier: Mr. MacDonald, superintendent pro tempore.
(Text):


Mr. PICARD:: I just desire to express a wish to the minister on behalf of the Frenchspeaking communities in the province of Quebec who want to call their member at Ottawa or whom at times their members have to call from the house. There seems to be a lack of bilingual operators, and when you call Joseph Latremoille, St. Alphonse de la Durantaye, St. Cajetan d'Armagh, over the telephone, you have to go on a spelling-bee in order to make the operator understand what you mean. Or if you are calling a gentleman who is mayor of a village and whose name is Joseph Latremoille, that means another spelling-bee for an hour or so. I believe they could have a few more bilingual operators in the service in Ottawa. It is not so important when we call the cities in Quebec, because our people speak English and there is no trouble, but when we call some of our constituents in the country it would be a help if we did not have to spend an hour when putting through the call in order to get the right place.


Mr. WYLIE:: There is quite an increase in this item. I do not know whether or not I am in order, but I think it is time something was done about the telephones in our rooms in this building. My complaint is that it is impossible to hear over those telephones most of the time, and I believe we should have monophones. We have many calls, and it is impossible to understand what is being said. I suggest to the minister that it is time we had monophones in our offices.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: In order to ingratiate myself with the minister before going on, I may say I have no trouble with my telephone at all. I can hear perfectly well, though I do sympathize with the hon. member for Bellechasse, who had difficulty in spelling names. I would have difficulty with those names, too; in fact I have had difficulty already.
I want to come back to this-and I apologize for being persistent-because I do not think the minister has really given me an answer. I
[Mr. Macdonnell.J
have not asked many questions, and I am going to try to get an answer to this one. I assume that somebody-and I would hope it is the public works department-is interested in knowing how many telephones we have, how many people are using them and whether we have the number that is necessary; that it is not just a matter of blindly carrying out any requests which are received. At the moment it would appear that, in spite of much talk about the reduction of the war departments, where there was a charge of $200,000 for these special departments-and incidentally, this is one of the war charges now beginning to show its head, which makes one wonder whether it should have been a war charge at all-we find this increase of $190,000. We are told there is a paltry saving of $10,000, but that does not impress me much. I should like to know, if we can have it, what would be a reasonable approach to this question. To me the reasonable approach would be to show how much service was being given before, how many people were being served, how many are being served now, and then I would be able to form some impression as to whether this reduction of $10,000 is reasonable or unreasonable.


Alphonse Fournier: If the hon. gentleman will take the book of estimates and look at page 75, item 566, he will see that in 1946-47 the estimate was $260,000. For this year the estimate is $60,000, so that the decrease in that vote is $200,000.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Yes, but the $190,000 appears on the other page.


Alphonse Fournier: Yes. Under item 330 in 1946 our general vote was $165,000. This year the estimate is $355,000, making an increase of $190,000. The telephones covered for the current year are the same as last year, with perhaps some decrease to the extent of $10,000. What the hon. gentleman does not seem to grasp-and perhaps I am not too clear in the way I put it-is that public works never orders a telephone for anybody. We receive a request from the department interested, which is sent to treasury board and referred back to public works, approved or refused.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I understand that.


Alphonse Fournier: The request is made by the department, approved by treasury board and sent to us, and we make an agreement with the telephone company for that telephone. The amount asked for is to cover the telephones needed by each department of government. If I were to say, "No, you cannot have that telephone; I am not going to put

Supply-Public Works
that amount in my estimates," I do not think I would have the approval even of the opposition. I do not increase or decrease the number of telephones in government departments. I just act as their agent after the request is approved.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Then I have this comment to make, that apparently no one is exercising any independent check at all on this expenditure.


Alphonse Fournier: Treasury board is quite a check.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Does the minister want me to believe that treasury board is exercising any scrutiny as to the number of telephones made available?


Mr. BERTRAND (Laurier):: Yes.


Alphonse Fournier: They refuse more than you think.


Ernest Bertrand: I wanted to have another line in my office here in the House of Commons. My secretary is on the opposite side of the corridor, and very often there are people in the office who happen to be speaking on the telephone when I need it. I asked for a new line, but they said, "Well, you will not have it this year."


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Of course there may be some requests so obviously unreasonable that even treasury board can see it. I want to come back to this question, which I am asking seriously. What independent check is there in this connection on the department? The minister will remember that a year ago we had an interesting discussion about furniture. It seemed then, and I suggest that it seems now, to indicate that the Department of Public Works is put in the position of simply carrying out what it is told to do.


Alphonse Fournier: By treasury board.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I am only asking whether there is a gap somewhere. In spite of the interesting illustration given by the Postmaster General, I still beg leave to doubt whether treasury board is in any position to inquire about the physical need, whether it is for 100 telephones or for 500 telephones; and I should have thought there would have been somebody to do that. Here we have a large amount of money being spent, and there is this trifling reduction of about five per cent. Yet we have been told on several occasions that some of these departments. for example the defence department, are supposed to have been greatly reduced.
I still suggest that if any real check were made, as in the case of the Postmaster General, the minister might find a considerable further reduction possible. I am not going to press the matter further, except to put myself on record as saying that nothing that has been said so far has satisfied me that this is really controlled as I think it might be.
(Translation):


Georges-Henri Héon: Mr. Chairman, would the hon. minister tell us what the Treasury Board is and what is the French for this English expression?


Alphonse Fournier: The "Bureau du Tresor". It is made up of six ministers, as a rule the six senior ministers of the government, and is responsible for approving certain government expenditure.


Georges-Henri Héon: Does my hon. friend belong to it?
(Text):


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Telegraph 'branch-*
Telegraph and telephone services, operation and maintenance-
336. British Columbia-Vancouver island district, $217,535.
George Randolph Pearkes: Could the minister say
whether any of this small increase is being spent on personnel? I am particularly interested in those lines which run east and west from Port Renfrew, on the southern shore of Vancouver island.


Alphonse Fournier: The whole of
the increase is due to the increased rate of cost of living bonus authorized in August, and statutory increases in salaries.


George Randolph Pearkes: Will there be any increase in the personnel? I am hoping there will be, because that line going east and west of Port Renfrew runs through extremely difficult country. It is broken up with ravines coming down from the mountains. Personnel who have been operating the line both east and west of Port Renfrew find it difficult to maintain that line since the service personnel were taken off the maintenance of the line in 1945. I hope it will be possible to increase the number of lines.


Alphonse Fournier: I assure the hon. member that the whole of this increase goes to an increase in rates of bonus, statutory increases, increases in allotments for sick and health relief, reclassification, and miscellaneous adjustments.

Supply-Public Works


George Randolph Pearkes: Would the minister
inquire as to whether it is not necessary, in order to give adequate service, to have additional linesmen at that important port.


Alphonse Fournier: I will do that.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Telegraph branch-construction, repairs and improvements-
S40. British Columbia, Northern and Yukon districts, $59,000.
Harry Grenfell Archibald: I do not wish to criticize the minister unduty, because his department has done good work in my district. However, where there is only an eight-hour service on government telephones there should be a hook-up for emergencies, such as police calls. This is most vital in these outside points. I know there have been improvements and much has been done in the past, but the work should be speeded up, inasmuch as the lines have a tendency to ground too much, especially at tidewater. The wires will come down, and at high tide they go up.
Then I object to charging for telephone calls of persons out in the country who may telephone a storekeeper in a local town. They telephone to their local storekeeper and are charged twenty-five cents. This applies to people telephoning to Burns Lake from Francois Lake, and people in Kispiox Valley telephoning to Hazelton. This is not charged by the private telephone companies. One may telephone from a rural section adjoining Ottawa without being subject to a charge. However, within the last two or three years this charge has been instituted in that area, and I say it is not fair because they have to pay a monthly rental for their telephones.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Telegraph branch-construction, repairs and improvements-
342. Cable for bay of Fundy district (revote), $28,000.
Alfred Johnson Brooks: Is this for a new cable or repairs to the old one?


Alphonse Fournier: It is to purchase fifteen miles of two-core steel armoured cable to provide telephonic and telegraphic channels in the bay of Fundy district.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: At what points?


Alphonse Fournier: Grand Manan island to smaller islands adjacent thereto by means of a submarine cable across the main water channel between Grand Manan and Passamaquoddy channel.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

General-
SJt't. [National Gallery of Canada, $1(17,098.
James MacKerras Macdonnell: Has a report been made by the board which supervises the national gallery? Are the directors satisfied with this vote?


Alphonse Fournier: I tabled the report a month ago, but I shall have a copy sent to the hon. member.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Does the board consider that the amount set aside here for the purchase of works of art is large enough?


Alphonse Fournier: When they bring in their estimates the amounts are discussed, and the amount here is the one agreed upon. Speaking personalty, I do not think it is large. However, after explaining what they want, they come to an agreement as to a certain amount.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Does this go through treasury board, too?


Alphonse Fournier: No, I would not say that. When these estimates come to the house they have been discussed and trimmed, not only by treasury board, but by the cabinet.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I am not suggesting that this one be trimmed. I am wondering if it is adequate.


Alphonse Fournier: I shall have some supplementary estimates, and perhaps the hon. member would suggest that it be made larger.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I would not make the suggestion without knowing more about the matter. I should like to see the report first.


Douglas King Hazen: Last year $50,000 was allowed for the purchase of works of art. Was all that expended, and, if so, how?


Alphonse Fournier: I happen to be the minister in charge of this item, but the national gallery is practically an independent body. When we vote the amount of $50,000 no one in the department would dare to interfere with the expenditure. I cannot set out the works which have been purchased, but they were purchased to the value of $48,313, and $5,288 was spent for the printing of reproductions.



THE ROYAL ASSENT

[Stage Direction]
A message was delivered by Major C. R. Lamoureux, D.S.O., Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, as follows:

The Royal Assent
Mr. Speaker, His Honour, the deputy of His Excellency the Governor General, desires the immediate attendance of this honourable house in the chamber of the honourable the Senate.
Accordingly, the house went up to the Senate.
And having returned.
Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER informed the house that the deputy of His Excellency the Governor General had been pleased to give in His Majesty's name the royal assent to the following bills:
An Act to amend the Publication of the Statutes Act.
An Act to incorporate Canadian Nurses' Association.
An Act to incorporate Workmen's Circle of Canada.
An Act to amend the Act incorporating The Canadian Council of The Girl Guides Association.
An Act to amend The National Housing Act, 1944.
An Act to amend The War Charities Act, 1930.
An Act to make provision with respect to Forces of the United States of America when visiting Canada and with respect to the exercise of discipline and to the internal administration of such Forces.
An Act respecting the Canadian National Railways and to provide for the * refunding of matured, maturing and callable financial obligations.
An Act to amend The Excess Profits Tax Act, 1940.
An Act respecting the Beauharnois Light, Heat and Power Company.
An Act to incorporate the Port Alberni Harbour Commissioners.
An Act to amend The Merchant Seamen Compensation Act.
An Act to amend The Penitentiary Act, 1939.
An Act to amend The Municipal Improvements Assistance Act, 1938.
An Act to amend The Farm Improvement Loans Act, 1944.
An Act to amend The Canadian National-Canadian Pacific Act, 1933.
An Act to amend the Criminal Code. (Race meetings.)
An Act to vary the Saskatchewan Natural Resources Agreement.
An Act to amend The Juvenile Delinquents Act, 1929.
An Act respecting Article Forty-one of the Charter of the United Nations.
An Act to authorize the provision of moneys to meet certain capital expenditures made and capital indebtedness incurred by the Canadian National Railways System during the calendar year 1947, and to authorize the guarantee by His Majesty of certain securities to be issued by the Canadian National Railway Company.
An Act to amend the Identification of Criminals Act.
An Act to amend The Judges Act, 1946.
An Act to amend The Exchequer Court Act.
An Act to amend the Prairie Farm Assistance Act, 1939.
83166-305J
An Act to amend The Canadian and British Insurance Companies Act, 1932, and The Foreign Insurance Companies Act, 1932.
An Act for granting to His Majesty certain sums of money for the public service of the financial year ending the 3ilst March, 1948.
[Stage Direction]
The house resumed in committee of supply, Mr. Cloutier in the chair.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at seven o'clock.
William Henry Golding: When the committee rose at six o'clock we were discussing item 344. Shall the item carry?


Eric Bowness McKay: I am not opposed to this item. I am certainly not. opposed to the appropriation indicated on page 212 of the estimates of $50,000 for the purchase of works of art. It is possible that it should be larger than that. I believe, however, that when public money is being expended this house should know exactly for what purpose it is to be used. I do not question for a moment the capabilities of those who are operating the national gallery, but I think the minister should be informed; and if it is not possible for him this year to get the information, then next year when he brings down his estimates he should have a list of the paintings purchased, the sources from which they are secured and prices paid for them, since, of course, it is a matter of this house's decision whether we appropriate anything for the gallery or not. I sincerely hope that the emphasis is being placed on the purchase of works of art produced by Canadians. Our artists need encouragement and there are Canadian artists of considerable note. As a matter of fact, I need only draw the house's attention to the picture in the rotunda of the parliament buildings, a picture painted by Mr. Forbes, a Canadian, to illustrate the fact that we have artists of more than average note in this country. Canadian artists do not need and have never needed to take second place to anyone. Our artists ought to be encouraged and, I believe they are being encouraged. I am not suggesting for a moment that those who operate the national gallery have not considered that. I suggest, however, that in the future the emphasis be put on exhibits of Canadian, art, and I think we should know exactly what is going into the national gallery. I would not suggest that
Supply-Public Works

the appropriation be reduced. In fact I think everything should be done to encourage our art with more expenditures for this purpose, if necessary.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
General-
345. Miscellaneous works not otherwise provided for, not more than $5,000 to be expended upon any one work, $150,000.
(Translation):
Mr. GAGNON:: Can the hon. minister
say whether part of the $150,000 appropriation voted under this heading will be spent in the county of Chicoutimi, on the wharf at L'Anse-a-la-Croix, which needs to undergo repairs?


Alphonse Fournier: I cannot say.
That estimate is reserved for projects costing under $5,000. When a request is submitted to us on the recommendation of our engineers, the required funds are provided by this estimate, if the repairs cost less than $5,000. From memory, I cannot say whether this vote will meet the cost of repairing the wharf at L'Anse-a-la-Croix, but if the hon. member wishes for further information, I shall supply it.


Paul-Edmond Gagnon: Thank you kindly.
(Text):


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
General-
348. To provide for the purchase of a portrait of Sir Louis Davies, $1,500.
Winfield Chester Scott McLure: After the remarks made a little while ago in reference to the national gallery, I am pleased to see this item. I suppose this portrait will be painted by a Canadian artist. I may say that it will be in honour of a Prince Edward Islander-


Mr. MacNAUGHT:: Hear, hear.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: -who played his part in legislation in Canada-


John Watson MacNaught: A good Liberal too.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: -and became Chief Justice of Canada.
Mr. MaoNAUGHT: A good Liberal too.
Mr. FOURNilER (Hull): I should like to have on the record purchases of portraits of chief justices of Canada. In 1943-44 there were purchased, through the national gallery, paintings of Chief Justices Anglin, by Mr. K.	K. Forbes, Toronto, and Sir Lyman P. Duff, by Ernest Fosbery of Ottawa, the first at a price of $1,500, and the second at a price

of $1,750. In this instance provision is made for the purchase of a portrait of the late Chief Justice Sir Louis Davies from the estate of the late Mrs. Amy Davies, to be hung in the Supreme Court of Canada. It was painted by Robert Harris, a former president of the Royal Canadian Academy.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Architectural branch-
561.	Post-war programme-expenses in connection with preparation of plans, specifications, etc., $200,000.
Mr. WRIGHT:: Is this post-war programme still in operation? Is the department still paying the expenses of engineering on projects by municipalities and that type of work? An expenditure of $200,000 is shown, which is $105,000 less than was spent last year. My information was that this work had pretty well stopped on these shell programmes. I supposed that this was an item under which the post-war or shell programme of the government was being paid for.


Alphonse Fournier: It is to pay for extra help in preparation for these post-war programmes. The staff working on them is not sufficient, and we need extra help in the architect's branch in the preparation of these plans and specifications.


Percy Ellis Wright: Can the minister give us some idea of the total amount involved in these post-war programmes for which plans are now laid?


Alphonse Fournier: They would run into millions. I have not the definite estimate. If I rightly understood the policy of the government, they gave us instructions to prepare plans and specifications for the different activities of our department, architectural or engineering, so that these plans and specifications would be ready when conditions of employment required them and materials were available. My department would not decide as to the timing of the planning, but we take on extra help to prepare these plans. The moment they are needed they will be available for execution.


Percy Ellis Wright: This item is just for plans of the government? It is not for outside work by municipalities in what was known as a shell programme in the reconstruction department after the war?


Alphonse Fournier: No. I do not think this staff would be employed in municipal or provincial projects. They are wholly federal projects.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Supply-Public Works
Architectural branch-
562.	Repairs, alterations and maintenance of buildings, $1,000,000.
Gordon Knapman Fraser: Is this 81,000.000 also for the same purpose, or is that to be spent, this year? Are these alterations to take care of unemployment ?


Alphonse Fournier: This vote is to be applied for the caretaking, heating, lighting and elevator service in connection with buildings at Ottawa and outside Ottawa still occupied by departments, boards and divisions set up for purely wartime functions such as wartime prices and trade board, reconstruction and supply; dependents' allowance board, defence; dependents' advisory committee, defence; national war labour board, labour; wartime labour relations board, labour; and others. This vote also covers repairs, alterations and redecorating buildings vacated by war departments which are now required for staffs of regular departments. However, in view of the many uncertainties as to what buildings may be expected to be vacated in 1947-48, due to reduction in staffs of war departments, demobilization and transfer of staff to build up interim forces, any estimate made at this time for 1947-48 must be very tentative. The departments I have named are supposed to be vanishing departments, and we have to keep the staff for the upkeep and repairs of buildings.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: War Assets would not be in that, or any of the crown corporations?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: May I ask a question?


William Henry Golding: Is this item carried?


Douglas Gooderham Ross: This is on item 307. It is a question of the new plant. I asked about what it was and I understood that it was for dredges. I was told there were a new dredge and two new scows. I was wondering what the purpose of that was.


William Henry Golding: Order.


Alphonse Fournier: Dredging in the great lakes.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: The answer I got was in lake Ontario.


William Henry Golding: Order. I wonder if we could finish the item we are on?


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I beg your pardon, Mr. Chairman. I thought we had finished with it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Architectural branch-
563.	Rental of premises, $635,000.
Mr. SHAW:: Does this item cover premises occupied by branches of the government other than the Department of Public Works? Is the Department of Public Works governed by the rental regulations established by the wartime prices and trade board?


Alphonse Fournier: Yes. These are buildings occupied by nearly every department of government, and we are subject to the regulations of the wartime prices and trade board as to rentals.


Mr. JOHNSTON:: Does the Department of Public Works pay the rent on the post offices throughout the country?


Alphonse Fournier: Yes; when they are in rented premises.


Charles Edward Johnston: Is that charged up to the Post Office Department?


Alphonse Fournier: No, it is charged up to our estimates.


Charles Edward Johnston: They do not pay any rent at all on those premises.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Architectural branch-
564.	Furniture, etc., $25,000.
Charles Edward Johnston: Is this $25,000 for new furniture?


Alphonse Fournier: It is for furniture which will be furnished in the buildings for the departments I have just mentioned to the hon. member for Peterborough.


Charles Edward Johnston: What happens to the furniture which is already there and is disposed of?


Alphonse Fournier: The procedure is a simple one. The departments I have mentioned to the hon. member for Peterborough are as follows: wartime prices and trade board, reconstruction and supply, dependent's allowance board, dependents' advisory committee, national war labour board, wartime labour relations board. When any request for furniture comes from those departments we first try to get it from War Assets Corporation. When they say they have not that furniture, we purchase it for these departments with this amount of $25,000.


Charles Edward Johnston: Is this item for the purpose of replacing the furniture in those offices?


Alphonse Fournier: It may be an increase in what they need or discarding furniture which is of nc use.

Supply-Public Works


Charles Edward Johnston: What I want to know is what the Department of Public Works does with this furniture which is replaced. What is done with the old furniture? How do they dispose of it? Do they just throw it out; do they give it away, or what do they do with it?


Alphonse Fournier: We do not give anything away. It goes through the salvage office. Now it is War Assets. Before the war, it was a salvage department under the control of finance, and everything which became obsolete or was of no use, was transferred to this salvage office. I understand that now, when furniture cannot be used, it is transferred to War Assets.


Charles Edward Johnston: Does the Department of Public Works also supply the furniture for the House of Commons?


Alphonse Fournier: Yes.


Charles Edward Johnston: And the same procedure is carried out with respect to the house furniture as is carried out with the other departments?


Alphonse Fournier: Absolutely.


Charles Edward Johnston: Do they dispose of that by public auction or private auction, or how is it done?


Alphonse Fournier: That would come under War Assets Corporation. I am not too familiar with the procedure there.


Charles Edward Johnston: Then, when there is replacement of the furniture here in the House of Commons, in members' offices and so on, it is all turned over to War Assets?


Alphonse Fournier: I understand that, *since the inception of the War Assets Corporation, it is transferred to them. Previously it went to what we called the salvage office.


Charles Edward Johnston: War Assets now takes possession of all that furniture?


Alphonse Fournier: That is my information.


William Henry Golding: Shall the
item carry?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: No. I do not think War Assets Corporation was set up for that purpose.


Alphonse Fournier: Perhaps not.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I think that, under the salvage proposition the government .had before, they would get a better deal.


Alphonse Fournier: I believe the salvage office which existed before the war has now become part of War Assets Corporation. It is being continued, but is it not under finance now?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: But War Assets Corporation was set up after the war to look after surplus war materials, and I feel that the public would get a better deal if this salvage office continued its work under the finance department, because the War Assets outfit should be closing up pretty soon.


Alphonse Fournier: That would be a matter of opinion. When War Assets Corporation was set up this salvage office which came under finance, was transferred to the corporation. I do not think they have changed much in their procedure in that branch of War Assets. The hon. member may be right that all these old carpets and broken desks and chairs are not war casualties but ordinary casualties of government departments, but they are sent over to this salvage office.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I have in mind, not only the furniture, but also properties that are held under the public works department. I brought this matter up before; I think the Department of Public Works is the proper department to handle all these materials for which we have no further use.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Engineering branch-
565.	Post-war construction programme-expenses in connection with surveys, preparation of plans and specifications, $350,000.
Percy Ellis Wright: I presume this vote in connection with post-war construction is for engineering in reference to dominion public works, is it?


Alphonse Fournier: Absolutely. The explanation here would be the same that I gave in connection with the architectural preparation of future plans. They are preparing plans for all these engineering works, such as wharves, breakwaters and so on, which will be considered when reconstruction or some agency of government gives us the green light.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Under this item, and in connection with item 561, in our province we were under the impression that the post-war programme would be carried out. Prior to the election of June, 1945, definite promises were made in reference to this post-war construction programme. We were definitely to have a survey of a highway from Borden to Charlottetown, and the construction of what is known as the Brighton bridge. I would ask the minister to say whether a survey has been

Supply-Public Works
made in connection with the Brighton bridge and -whether plans and specifications have been prepared.


Mr. GRANT:: That is a provincial bridge.


Alphonse Fournier: The hon. gentleman is asking me whether somebody in Prince Edward Island made a promise that a bridge would be constructed. That is not within my knowledge. I do not know about those promises.
(Translation):


Paul-Edmond Gagnon: Mr. Chairman, may I ask
some information of the minister? Would he kindly tell me whether the $138,000 vote carried this afternoon under item 323 will be spent this year?


Alphonse Fournier: Where?


Paul-Edmond Gagnon: At L'Anse-Saint-Jean, as
mentioned on page 43.


Alphonse Fournier: I am told that plans and specifications will be completed within a fortnight. When these are ready, we shall call for tenders and can therefore hope to begin the work this year.


Paul-Edmond Gagnon: Should you feel, even
though the plans are completed within the next two weeks that the project will not get under way this year, would you hope to undertake them next year?


Alphonse Fournier: My answer is that the work will begin this year and will probably be finished next year.
(Text):


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Telegraph branch-
566.	Ottawa-telephone service, $60,000.
Gordon Knapman Fraser: This item means that the telephone services for the wartime prices and trade board and the other units mentioned by the minister have been cut by $200,000?


Alphonse Fournier: No. I had a discussion of this matter this afternoon with the hon. member for Muskoka-Ontario. Only five minutes ago I mentioned to the hon. member the vanishing departments for which we are providing. This $60,000, I think I am right in saying, is to provide telephone services for those agencies. The others are in buildings occupied by permanent departments or agencies. The amount was decreased by $200,000, but the main estimate was increased by $190,000. During the dinner hour I have been thinking of the questions asked by the hon. member for Muskoka-Ontario. _ Perhaps his idea is correct, that we are not reducing the
number of personnel sufficiently and, as a consequence, the cost of telephones is not going down as quickly as he would like to see it go down, but I must tell him this department cannot enter into that. We get the requests and make agreements with the Bell Telephone Company to give the service.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I want to increase the importance of your department and give you control over all these telephones.


Alphonse Fournier: You are very kind.


Mr. POULIOT:: I want to ask something of the minister. When some branches disappear, branches in which there is modern telephone apparatus, would it not be possible to exchange our old equipment in the House of Commons for new equipment, the kind which can be held in one's hand and which gives better service? The men who came to the various departments here during the war were provided with the finest telephone instruments, and I hope the minister will be kind enough to see to it that members of this house are provided with better telephones than we now have.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
General-
567.	Contingencies, $10,006.
Alfred Johnson Brooks: I believe this is the last item in this department. The minister has been very kind and courteous in his answers and veiy considerate to hon. members. I have a question which may not come under this item, but since this is the last item of this department I would ask the indulgence of the minister to put the question now. It is based upon a telegram I received on June 24 from New Brunswick coal producers' association, Minto, New Brunswick, which reads:
Department of Public Works called for tenders for coal for federal buildings in New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island. The Dominion Coal Company's coal is specified for practically every building in Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick where formerly New Brunswick coal was acceptable. Total tonnage involved is about 4,000 tons. Would suggest new tenders be called in which Minto shippers would have an opportunity to bid on this business. Dominion Coal Company's coals are even specified for Minto, Chipman and Fredericton post offices.
I want to ask the minister whether new tenders could be called., and whether there has not been some mistake in calling the present tenders. I have not the least doubt that probably the minister's department has been anxious to have maritime coal rather than
Supply-Public Works

United States coal used in maritime buildings. Perhaps it was not known that New Brunswick was left out. It is like carrying coals to Newcastle to ask Minto, where coal is produced, to use Nova Scotia coal.


Alphonse Fournier: I understand that the hon. member sent a telegram to the department about this matter?


Alfred Johnson Brooks: This is the same telegram as was sent to the Minister of Fisheries, and possibly he has already taken the matter up with the department,


Alphonse Fournier: There was a mistake in the specifications. There is no doubt about that, and we admit the mistake. This was for the purchase of coal, and by some inadvertence an official in the department did make a mistake. But when complaints were received the specifications were changed.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: And new tenders are being called?


Alphonse Fournier: We have lengthened the time for tenders. I believe the mistake has been corrected.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Are the amounts in the ordinary estimates and in the reconstruction estimates for the telephones for .the different departments of government?


Alphonse Fournier: Yes.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Then, on top of that, these different departments have their own longdistance calls.


Alphonse Fournier: Yes; we pay for the service for every department.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: But they pay for the longdistance calls?


Alphonse Fournier: Yes.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I have a question with respect to item 565.


William Henry Golding: That was passed. We are now on item 567.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I realize that, but probably the minister would answer this. I note that it is an amount of
8350,000	for a post-war construction programme. Is that for the working out of tentative plans prepared by other departments in the event of the need of public works, and, in particular, I want to know if it is done by the Department of Reconstruction and Supply?


Alphonse Fournier: No, we are asking this vote, and have done so for the last two years. It is for adding to the ordinary staff of the department other people who work on the preparation of plans for the post-war

programme. I have the details here with respect to the way in which the money is spent. However, throughout the country in our offices we have people working on plans which would be useful in a period of depression, we will say, or as a post-war programme.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Who determines those plans?


Alphonse Fournier: We do. My department takes in all buildings and engineering works and, after receiving requests from all departments as to buildings, we are the ones who decide on the preparation of the plans. To do this work, which is somewhat out of the ordinary, we need this staff which, under the item, is paid $350,000.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I understand that. But my question still is: Is that done in conjunction with the Department of Reconstruction and Supply?


Alphonse Fournier: We prepare the detailed plans. There is a committee of the cabinet which meets regularly with respect to reconstruction. They have different projects and receive requests; and when they come to some decision, or decide that a federal project would be useful at the proper time, we work on the details of the specifications for the project.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: I would direct the minister's attention to pages 210 and 211 of the details. We find there that we have already passed about $600,000 or $700,000 for such things as temporary assistance. I was talking about that item last night.
Then there is reference to commissions, whatever they are, to the extent of 8300,000 or $400,000. I should like to know what those commissions are.


Alphonse Fournier: I understand that those commissions are paid to the telegraph or telephone operators we have throughout the country on government-owned lines. They are not paid monthly or weekly rates, but are paid according to the amount of business going through the offices or probably a percentage of collections made.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: The minister has
said that item 307 deals with dredging for Ontario and Quebec, and referred to dredging on lake Ontario. This involves an expenditure of about $376,000, and I should like to know something about it.


Alphonse Fournier: The new plant
to which reference is made in the details, will consist of a new dredge to replace dredge No. 126 which operates on the Gaspe coast and around the Magdalen islands, at a cost

Supply-Post Office Department
of 860,000. The dredge of the sort which operates on the Gaspe coast costs $60,000.


Thomas Reid: I thought none were being
built.


Alphonse Fournier: Those are only
spoons; this is not a British Columbia dredge, out where they have big things. Then there is a new 150 cubic yard scow for a new dredge to be purchased, which will operate in the great lakes: This was in last year's estimates, but was not built, and is to cost 835,000. Then there is a new 3| cubic yard dredge to be purchased for operation in the great lakes, and to cost $200,000, and a caterpillar crane to be purchased through War Assets Corporation and to be operated on the Gaspe coast, at a cost of 820,000. New buckets for this would cost 81,500, giving a total of $376,500.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
261. Departmental administration, $11,203,917.
John Ritchie MacNicol: Mr. Chairman, so far
as I can see, the post office service has improved. I do not know who deserves credit for it, but perhaps it should go to the minister, as head of the department. I do not hear any complaints any more in my own city of Toronto, and I presume that the service has improved generally throughout the country.


John Lambert Gibson: Come up to my riding.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am speaking of a city riding. I would ask the minister if the department has made any decision yet as to reducing the air mail postage rate. I found everywhere in the western states when I was there last fall that when I sent letters back to Canada the air mail rate was five cents, whereas in Canada it is seven cents.


Ernest Bertrand: It was my intention to say a few words about the balance sheet of the department.


John Lambert Gibson: Will the minister explain the $11,000,000 surplus?


Ernest Bertrand: Our total gross revenue in 1945-46 was $83,785,000, as against $86,400,000 in 1946-47. The revenue was as follows: postage stamps, cards, et cetera, sold, $52,000,000 in 1945-46 and $55,000,000 in 194647; postage paid in cash, 1945-46, $23,000,000; 1946-47, $24,000,000; deductions from revenue, postmasters' remuneration, commissions and allowance. 1945-46, $10,211,000; 1946-47, $10,427,000; discount to stamp vendors, special 83166-306
delivery compensation, transit charges, et cetera, 1945-46, $4,900,000; 1946-47, $2,995,000. So that the net revenue in 1945-46 was $68,635,000 and in 1946-47, $72,978,000.
Now for the expenditures. In 1945-46 they totalled 857.729,000; 1946-47, $64,213,000. This increase is due to the fact that we are paying more to the employees and also we have a few more employees. We have established new post offices and rural mail routes and are paying quite a sum more on rural mail contracts. We have also established letter carriers in different cities where we did not have them last year.
The net surplus in 1945-46 was $10,905,000, and in 1946-47, $8,765,000.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Nearly $2,000,000 'difference?


Ernest Bertrand: Yes, because our expenses have increased. The net surplus after adjustments, was $12,552,000 in 1945-46, and $10,400,000 in 1946-47. The difference is because our expenses have increased. We have adjustments covering the franking privilege, building rental and so forth, and we put that in at $4,728,000 in 1945-46 and $4,750,000 in 1946-47.
As was said on the public works estimates, these figures do not show a profit or loss at all. They simply show an operating surplus over expenses. We do not pay for the buildings, not even for their maintenance. It is just an operating surplus. Some people ask why we should not have a balance sheet just as a company would have; but it must be remembered that we are only one department of the government, and our balance sheet, our profit and loss if you will, so far as the post office is concerned, becomes a part of the government's budget.
The postage value of franked provincial government documents, ballot boxes and keys, customs notices and so forth, was put at $162,875 in 1945-46, and in 1946-47 we are putting it at $150,000. The estimated expense of operating the post office savings bank, wffiich we operate without any charge whatsoever, was S260.S92 in 1945-46, and in 1946-47 we are estimating it at $290,991.
The estimated cost of the free conveyance of newspapers in a forty-mile area was $30,000 in 1945-46 and the same in 1946-47.
The rental value of post office space in government-owned and rented buildings was $3,535,815 in 1945-46 and $3,586,000 in 1946-47.
The net surplus, after adjustments, was $12,552,000 in 1945-46 and $10,400,000 in 1946-47.
I do not know that I can anticipate any questions which may be asked. A law has



Supply-Post Office Department
been passed increasing the compensation on certain rural mail contracts, and I might as well give a few figures on that because I am sure to be asked questions about it.
For the week ending April 5, 1947, to the week ending June 21, 1947, the award of new
supplements where no previous supplement was paid was as follows:
Number of cases	 374
Total value of contract rates ....	$261,952.80
Amount of supplements granted ..	57,199.03
Percentage of supplement to contract value	 21 [DOT] 8 per cent


John George Diefenbaker: What does that
21-8 per cent represent?


Ernest Bertrand: It represents the increase over the total amount of the contracts.
Next is the award of increased supplements where supplements were already being paid. The number of cases was 260. The total value of these contract rates is $181,477.59, and the total value of supplements already in effect as of March 31, 1947, on these 260 cases was $60,530.21. The amount of increased supplements granted since March 31, is $51,441.96, making in all $111,000 odd, since supplements were granted by virtue of the order in council that was passed for that purpose.


John George Diefenbaker: What is the percentage of increase?


Ernest Bertrand: The percentage of increased supplement to contract value is 28-3 per cent; the percentage of increased supplement to contract value plus supplement already paid is 21-3 per cent, which is about the same as those that were granted where no supplements had been awarded before.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: That covers the 260 contracts.


Ernest Bertrand: Yes. The
summary is as follows:	number of cases
534; total value of contract rates, $443,430.39; total value of contract rates plus supplement already paid at March 31, 1947, $503,960.60; total amount of supplements granted from April 1, 1947 to June 21 of this year, $108,640.99.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Does that cover the whole period?


Ernest Bertrand: That covers
the period between April 5, when we started to renew the contracts to June 21, 1947, plus the amount that had been awarded on the 260 cases by virtue of the order in council.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: The minister gave us the figure of 374 cases

and $261,000 as the value of the contract rates. That means per annum?


Ernest Bertrand: Yes, annually. The percentage of supplement granted1 from April 1,1947, to contract values is 24-5 per cent; the percentage of supplement granted from April 1, 1947, to contract values plus supplement already paid at March 31, 1947, 21-6 per cent; supplement cases prior to March 31, 1947, were 4.256. I gave that when we discussed the law that we passed. The supplement cases from April 1, 1947, to June 21, 1947, amounted to 634, making a total of 4,890. The total supplement granted prior to March 31, 1947, was $946,186.38, or 34-9 per cent; the total supplement granted after April 1, 1947, is $108,640.99, or 21 per cent. Therefore in all, before and after March 31, the total supplement is $1,054,827.37, or a percentage of 32-8 per cent as compared with the total capital amount of these contracts for one year.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Will the minister answer the question I asked him, whether the air mail rate will be reduced or not?


Mr. THATCHER:: I have a few questions I should like to ask the minister specifically regarding the postal district of Moose Jaw. On April 16, in the "Post Office Weekly Bulletin" this announcement was made by the deputy postmaster general:
From April 1, 1947, the position of district director has been discontinued.
Operating and secretarial features will be taken care of by a postmaster; district office functions relating to services and investigations will be carried on by the district post office inspector.
There are two exceptions to the above arrangement, namely. Moose Jaw and Charlottetown. The work of the Moose Jaw district will be under the jurisdiction of the district post office inspector at Calgary, but for the time being the former district director at Moose Jaw will act on behalf of the district inspector at Calgary.
I do not need to tell the minister that the people of Moose Jaw are perturbed by this announcement. They are afraid that they will lose a good many of the staff at the Moose Jaw post office to some other city. This is what the mayor had to say a few days ago in a letter to me:
In my opinion the technique which is being used is not difficult to recognize; and while the head office is to be at Calgary, I would wager that within a year the present form of administration will turn up in Regina.
I should like the minister to make some statement on that fear. In a letter dated April 18, 1947, the mayor of Moose Jaw said:
I have information which, if true, appears to indicate that Moose Jaw district is being discriminated against, for it has been stated to me

Supply-Post Office Department
that of the fifteen districts in this country which have been established, Moose Jaw is the only one to be affected by this proposed and suggested "stream-lining" of the post office districts.
I have one other statement I should like to read, which appeared in the Moose Jaw Times-Herald on April 17 and which, I think, sums up the situation very well:
The announcement from Ottawa has come as a rude shock.
The Moose Jaw postal district, with headquarters at Moose Jaw, was created in 1907 in order to overcome problems created by the fastgrowing population in southern (Saskatchewan and the creation of many new towns as railway lines were built. Prior to the establishment of the Moose Jaw district, the territory between Winnipeg and Calgary, close to 1,000 miles wide and 350 miles in depth, was administered and supervised from Calgary and Winnipeg. This was found to be uneconomical and inefficient.
The reorganization, which has been announced in what appears to be a surreptitious manner, restores the condition of affairs which existed up to 1907.
Those who have engineered the reorganization appear to have been so illogical in their decision that it looks ridiculous. To explain it on the ground of efficiency and for economical reasons is not sound reasoning. It is impracticable and has been proved to be so.
I could go on, but I will not. I have a series of questions that I should like to ask the minister to clear this matter up. Perhaps before I ask these questions, the minister will make a statement. The fact is that in Moose Jaw there have been 625 small rural post offices which have been supervised from that point. Now apparently they are to be supervised from Calgary.


Charles Edward Johnston: There is nothing wrong with that.


Wilbert Ross Thatcher: We think there is.
Before I ask my questions perhaps the minister would make a general statement. If it is satisfactory I might not have to ask my questions. If he can clear the matter up I should like him to do so.


Ernest Bertrand: We are trying to better the system all over Canada. There is one thing that sometimes creates difficulty. It is the fact that provinces are jealous of their districts, but we are a national department and cannot go according to provinces except in a province like Prince Edward Island which is an island, and we cannot have it administered by somebody who lives outside that island. I shall give the committee an example. The districts are created generally according to a central city. Take the district of Montreal. The district of Montreal goes quite far into Ontario toward Toronto, because Montreal is near the 83166-306J
boundary of Ontario, and the officers have to live in Montreal.
Some time ago we had a little difficulty because we used to have a district starting in Quebec and going as far as Cochrane in Ontario. We thought it was too far for our officers to travel and do a good day's work. They had to work during a part of the night in order to get through, so we cut it and gave North Bay that part of northern Quebec, which is much nearer to North Bay than it is to Quebec. Previously we had a district director in each of fifteen districts, and in each of those cities he was also postmaster and supervisor of the surrounding district. We thought it would provide a better service if we had a district post office inspector besides the postmaster in these large cities. It is enough for a man to be postmaster in Montreal or Toronto, and so we appointed district post office inspectors. Consequently we have two men doing today the work that used to be done by one man, the object being that the work shall be expedited. It was too much for one man.


Wilbert Ross Thatcher: That is not the case in Moose Jaw.


Ernest Bertrand: Moose Jaw and Calgary are not so far apart.


Wilbert Ross Thatcher: Oh, they are quite a distance.


Ernest Bertrand: Well, there are great distances in the western provinces, and we do not want to discriminate against Moose Jaw at all, but it was far more convenient for that district to be administered from Calgary than from Moose Jaw. We had many protests, but it does not change a single man. The man who used to be the district director of Moose Jaw is the postmaster of Moose Jaw, and will stay there, but the man we appointed for that district will live in Calgary instead of Moose Jaw. If we had put it in Moose Jaw he would have had to live there.


Wilbert Ross Thatcher: Is the minister saying that the present staff in Moose Jaw will not be reduced by that change?


Ernest Bertrand: Not one man will be changed.


Wilbert Ross Thatcher: There will be no change in the future.


Ernest Bertrand: I will tell the hon. gentleman more than that. We decided that before making the appointment we would see the people and have a discussion with them. The district might be known as Calgary-Moose Jaw or something like that.

Supply-Post Office Department
We want to arrive at a goodcompromise and therefore we have not yet made the appointment.


Wilbert Ross Thatcher: The people of Moose Jaw are a little afraid that this appointment, having been made on a temporary basis, will be put in Calgary for a year, and then slipped back to Regina. Is there any possibility of that?


Ernest Bertrand: There is no possibility at all. It will not be done, because Regina would not be the proper place.


Wilbert Ross Thatcher: I thank the minister. Will he tell me what economies are being effected by having it in Calgary instead of Moose Jaw?


Ernest Bertrand: The department will probably save between $2,000 and $3,000 in travelling expenses through the district post office director living in Calgary instead of Moose Jaw. He would have to do more travelling if he lived at Moose Jaw. Moreover, from what I am told, Moose Jaw is a smaller city than Calgary.


Wilbert Ross Thatcher: Before making this permanent, will the minister give the matter further consideration as to leaving it in Moose Jaw?


Ernest Bertrand: I have
promised some of my colleagues here, inter alios the bon. member for Rosthern (Mr. Tucker), to consider the matter and I am awaiting the return of the deputy minister from France. He is in Paris at the meeting of the international postal union. We will discuss it further and no one will be taken by surprise.


Frederick Davis Shaw: I have one or two observations to make on this. I wish to commend the minister for having relieved the old district director from the responsibility of being also postmaster. I think it was an almost intolerable combination. I should like to ask whether the former district director, who is now to be district inspector, will be in any way penalized as far as salary is concerned.


Ernest Bertrand: They will not be penalized in the matter of salary. The salary might even be increased.


Frederick Davis Shaw: It is observed that the Calgary district, for example, is to be enlarged by the inclusion of the Moose Jaw district. Since these districts were before so greatly enlarged, I think the department would be well advised to consider the establishment of additional postal districts in Canada. I believe that fifteen are altogether too few to enable these men to render the type of service which I am sure they are willing to give.


Harry Grenfell Archibald: I wish to bring up a point which perhaps would properly come up under item 265; but, inasmuch as it is the only point I am raising tonight, perhaps I may be allowed to discuss it now. I am referring to the new air route now established between Yancouver and Prince Rupert. I will take it for granted that Canadian Pacific Air Lines will get an air mail contract. I will not argue about it because I think it is the only sensible thing to do. It has a land plane as far as Sandspit on the Queen Charlotte islands and from Sandspit to Prince Rupert transportation is by amphibious craft. In considering an air mail contract with the Canadian Pacific Air Lines, I wish the minister would do all he can to have that plane call at the little village of Massett at the north end of the Queen Charlotte islands. They liave a boat only once every ten days and they cannot reply to mail by the same boat, so that sometimes it is twenty days before a letter can be answered and the matter involved squared away. It would not necessitate the plane calling every day. If it could call every two or three days I think the people would be well satisfied, and that would help in the building up of that little community. It would help to make it more prosperous if it were enabled to maintain air communication with the outside.


Ernest Bertrand: I wish to reply to the hon. gentleman's statement because it is important. In the department we are air-minded to a reasonable extent, because it costs a good deal of money. We know that in the future we shall use planes more and more for the carriage of mail; and in a country like Canada, which is so vast, the reduction of distances is certainly a very good objective. Between Vancouver and Prince Rupert, Canadian Pacific Air Lines have asked for a licence, which has been granted, effective on June 15, 1947. Of course they are asking for an air mail contract. The post office has often been looked upon by aviation companies as a Santa Claus and it has been a Santa Claus for many of them; but we believe that a contract should be granted to Canadian Pacific Air Lines for this flight. It will go to Prince Rupert and stop at Port Hardy and Sandspit. The hon. member for Skeena has already discussed with me the possibility of the plane stopping at Massett. His reason seems to be a very good one. If it is possible to do that, we shall do so. I may say that this is going to cost approximately $112,680 a year on the basis of thirty cents a mile. There will be a deficit, of course; but we think that far distant points, such as Prince Rupert, should har e faster service than

Supply-Post Office Department
is possible by boat or train. We have also granted a contract to the Canadian Pacific Air Lines for Flin Flon, Port Dauphin and Winnipeg. This is going to cost $82,000. For quite a long time we have been pressed for another contract in the Okanagan valley between Vancouver, Castleaen, Penticton and Kimberley. We are considering that. It is costly, but we will do it if we possibly can.


Mr. BENTLEY:: Can the minister tell me if letter carrier service is soon to be instituted in Swift Current? I have a letter from the assistant district director indicating that a re-survey was made in that week of May 5-10, or some time in there. He advised me that a report of that survey would be made immediately to the Post Office Department at Ottawa for its consideration. Has consideration been given to that report, and what has become of it?


Thomas Vincent Grant: What is the population?


Thomas John Bentley: About seven thousand.


Ernest Bertrand: 
Thomas John Bentley: 
Mr. ISNOR:: In view of the statement made by the Postmaster General to the effect that the department was air-minded, may I ask if the department keeps separate records in respect of the sale of air mail stamps? I would judge from the minister's shake of the head that the answer is no. If they had done so, I feel reasonably sure that the extreme eastern provinces and the extreme western ones would show that they were carrying a large proportion of the sales. I make that statement because of the large amount, in comparison with the other provinces, which is paid in connection with long distance telephone calls. A large number on the extreme east coast-and the same thing applies to the west coast-find it necessary to telephone to central Canada in regard to business and general matters. The same situation does not exist to the same extent in so far as the central provinces are concerned.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Oh, yes.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: Not to the same extent, I said. I think the same applies with respect to the air mail service. I bring this matter to the attention of the Postmaster General for this reason. In the maritimes and in the extreme west, if we want a special delivery letter to be delivered, we are obliged to put on a four-cent stamp and a ten-cent stamp. But that is not of very much use to us for a special delivery letter. We always send it by air mail, and it costs us seventeen cents as against fourteen cents for the regular mail in the central provinces. Iam suggesting that consideration be given to a special delivery stamp, air mail, at twelve cents; that is seven cents plus five cents. Of course that privilege would be enjoyed by all sections of Canada, but it would benefit the east and the west to a

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greater extent than it would benefit central Canada. I am offering that as a constructive thought for the Postmaster General to take into consideration for the future.


Ernest Bertrand: I will take note of what the hon. member says.


George Randolph Pearkes: Has the reorganization which the Postmaster General intimated was taking place extended to the rural post offices? I am not talking about the carriers. Is there an extension of the policy to have more post offices on the staff basis; that is, the postmaster and his assistant being employees of the Post Office Department, instead of having the work let out on a contract basis? If so, what is the minimum revenue requirement before a post office may be placed on a staff basis. Then I have one other question to ask.


Ernest Bertrand: The answer is yes; and the minimum requirement has been fixed at $40,000, but we hope to be able to reduce it. That requirement was put on during the war years; but now that the war is over, we hope to be able to lower it, and* it is our intention to have more staff offices as soon as they bring in enough revenue.


George Randolph Pearkes: That would give a rural postmaster an opportunity of being promoted to a senior station, would it?


Ernest Bertrand: Yes.


George Randolph Pearkes: The minister referred to the extension of the letter carrier service, and the taking on of more employees. Is there any age limit beyond which you do not accept employees?


Ernest Bertrand: Not for the returned men, but for the others we are bound by the limit imposed by the civil service commission, which is thirty-five years of age. That does not apply to returned men; even if they are over thirty-five we take them.


George Randolph Pearkes: And that applies to
employees inside the post office, as well as to letter carriers?


Ernest Bertrand: Yes, they come under the civil service commission, like any other employee on the staff here in Ottawa or any other large city.


Mr. FERGUSON:: The Postmaster General said it was the desire of his department to create more staff offices now that the war is over, and that they were considering lowering the requirement, by which I suppose he means the income of an office. In the town of Collingwood, which is in the riding I represent, we have almost the revenue necessary for the establishment of a letter carrier service.
[Mr. Isnor.l


John Lambert Gibson: How are your sidewalks?


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: About the finest one will find anywhere in Canada, and that goes for everything else in the town of Collingwood. At the present time I believe the revenue of that post office is approximately $27,000. I understand that it would require the services of eight returned men to carry on such a service. Eight men working eight hours a day would mean a total number of hours much less than that spent by the householders of that city who have to go to the post office at least once a day for their mail. In most oases it is the women who collect the mail. It has been brought to my attention repeatedly that most of these women cannot afford maids; they have several children in the family, and it means the mother must prepare the children each day, take them to the post office and bring them home again. This means at least two hours lost by most of the women in Collingwood, which would mean thousands of hours of work lost every week. So I suggest that eight men working eight hours a day delivering mail actually would bring about a tremendous saving in work hours and, therefore, an actual saving of money in that community. I should like the Postmaster General to give his assurance that he will reconsider the question of mail delivery in the town of Collingwood. I understand that the requirement for such carrier delivery is an annual revenue of $30,000, and I believe the annual revenue at Collingwood is about $27,000. I believe this matter has been brought to the attention of the hon. gentleman on other occasions, and I think it deserves his serious consideration.


Ernest Bertrand: Of course, if
many questions are asked about particular places I shall be unable to answer them immediately, but it is my intention to do what I did last year and read over all these questions when we are through and see if we can satisfy hon. members. I believe it is not considered a good thing for a minister to boast too much about his own department, but as much as possible we try to say yes when we are asked to do something. We are giving a service; we are glad to give it, and we are always sorry to have to say no. In Collingwood last year the revenue was $34,226, which is not very far from the requirement of $40,000. I understand that the population is 5,600; but hon. members must take into account that if we do not have 2,000 points of call it is not economical tc give letter carrier service. It takes at least four letter carriers for a small town where there are 2,000 points of call, with a

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fifth carrier for relief and to help the others. If there are fewer points of call it is a difficult matter to organize economically. Collingwood is not very far from the requirement, however, and I shall give serious consideration to the hon. gentleman's request.


Eric Bowness McKay: In view of the fairly good
showing of the Post Office Department in its surplus of receipts over expenditures during the last few years, I wonder if the minister and the government have given consideration to reducing the postal rate on ordinary mail from four cents to three cents.


Ernest Bertrand: I have quite
a good answer to that question. This surplus is a tax, as a matter of fact. A tax of one cent was put on in 1931, and a tax of another cent was added in 1943, so that in the four cents there is a tax of two cents. It is not in my power today to reduce that tax; that is a matter which must be dealt with in the budget. I may tell the hon. member, however, that I do not believe it would be a good move to go back to the three cent and two cent rates, because expenses today are much higher than they were before the war. I do not want to say anything against our neighbours in the United States, but immediately after the war they reduced their rate from four cents to three cents for the forward letter and from three cents to two cents for the drop letter, that is, the letter which is delivered in the same city. At the same time they increased the salaries of their postal employees; and today they have a deficit of $492,000,000. It does not take long to create a deficit if you reduce your receipts. Hon. members should remember that we sold $55,000,000 worth of stamps last year. To reduce the rate by one cent on both drop and forward letters would mean a loss in revenue of $11,000,000, and we would be immediately in the red.


John Ritchie MacNicol: What would be the
result if you reduced the air mail rate to five cents?


Ernest Bertrand: The air mail rate in the United States was reduced from eight cents to five cents. At the present time a committee of the senate and house of representatives are studying the question of raising the air mail rate from five cents to six or seven cents. We do not know yet what will happen. The President has sent a message to congress asking that it be studied, with a view to recovering part of their deficit.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: The minister spoke about the desire of the post office to serve. Certainly in my experience may I say I have had nothing but the most courteous consideration of any requests I have made. I have never gone as high as the minister himself, but I have always had the greatest courtesy from the officials.


Ernest Bertrand: Sometimes it is better to go to the officials. They can give more direct answers.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: There was one point the minister mentioned with respect to bonuses which interested us a year ago when they were authorized. If I got the figures correctly the minister mentioned, first of all, 374 cases where no previous allowance had been made and on which there was an increase of 21-8 per cent. Then he gave a list of 260 on which there had already been a considerable allowance and, as I understood him, the allowance there was just as great as in respect of those which had had no previous allowance. On the face of it, that would appear strange, and I wonder if the minister would explain it?


Ernest Bertrand: These last ones, where there were supplementary payments, were the worst. Those were contracts which had been awarded on tenders first. Of course tenders are not at a set rate. Those 260 were the ones which were lowest and had already been adjusted. But, even after the adjustments, when we passed the law which allowed the readjustment of some of these contracts we found that these contracts had to be given another supplement which would bring them to about the same as those which had not been adjusted before. Those which were adjusted twice received, as a second adjustment, almost as much as those which were adjusted only once. That is because they were lower than the first ones. After they had been adjusted, the high cost of living forced us to adjust them a second time. But the percentage of adjustments, including the two adjustments in the second group and the one adjustment in the first, amounted to about the same thing.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Were the adjustments pretty much on a level? Were they more or less on the same percentage basis? There was not much variation?


Ernest Bertrand: No, because the instruction was given to Mr. Herring, the officer in charge, who knows the department very well, to adjust them according to the prevailing rate, which would be the reasonable rate in the area. They were adjusted when they were found to be too low.


Mr. JUTRAS:: What is the policy of the department with regard to the building of new

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post offices, particularly in rural areas? My understanding is that during the war no new post offices were built where the revenue did not exceed $10,000. Does that policy still hold?


Ernest Bertrand: My colleague the Minister of Public Works has complained that I made many requests for new post offices. I admit that for six or seven years- perhaps I should say five or six years-post offices were not built except where they were absolutely necessary. Those were war years. We hope next year to be able to build quite a number. I have said we would build them where the revenues were $10,000 or more, and if it were possible to build them where revenues were lower we would do so with pleasure. There may be a few exceptions here and there, but the fact is that we would be building quite a. number. I would not say the number at this time.


John Ritchie MacNicol: We could leave that off until after the elections, could we not?


Ernest Bertrand: Perhaps it would be a good thing, from the point of view of the treasury, but you may be sure that if we could do it this year we would. Doing it next year or the year after will certainly bring it nearer an election; but it would not be for that purpose at all. There will not be any distinction as between constituencies which elect good Liberals, good C.C.F.'ers or good Progressive Conservatives.


René Jutras: I hope what the minister has said does not apply to extensions of post offices already existing. I have one in mind at Steinbach, Manitoba, where they have been after the department for years t'o have their post office enlarged. The building is much too small for the present population. There they have been met with the objection that the department would not make expenditures where revenues were not over $10,000. During the war the revenue in that post office was slightly below this amount. The people in the district claim that they can scarcely get over that amount with the accommodation they have. At the present time I understand that most of the business houses are doing their business directly with Winnipeg by means of the buses which go to that city daily. They buy large quantities of stamps in the city before coming to the town, and in this way the department is losing revenue. The revenue of the post office is not increasing, and yet, since the beginning of the war, the population has almost doubled. I would ask the minister to look into this matter particularly.


Ernest Bertrand: We will.


Matthew MacLean: In connection with rural mails, let us suppose there are two routes of twenty miles each, with fifty stops on one and one hundred on the other; how does the department arrive at payment on a mileage basis as. between those two routes?


Ernest Bertrand: When the routes are established we ask for tenders. The gentleman who tenders will know the amount at which he should place his tender in order to make a fair living. If a tender is too high we reserve the right to ask for new tenders. That has happened often. If it is a renewal of contract and we pay a supplement we keep in mind that the man who served one hundred boxes should be paid more than the man who served fifty.


Matthew MacLean: But the minister says the payment is at a certain amount per mile. Let up suppose the payment is on that basis, but there are fifty people an one route and one hundred on the other.


Ernest Bertrand: We do not pay the contractors by the mile. We ask for tenders, and they tender for a certain amount for the full route. If we adjust such a contract, of course we will adjust it and give a little more to the man who serves one hundred than to the man who serves only fifty


Mr. CASE:: Has there been any general reduction in the hours worked by the employees of the department?


Ernest Bertrand: No, they work forty-four hours a week.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: Provision is made for 1,020 additional employees over last year. Is that on account of the normal expansion of the service?


Ernest Bertrand: Yes, there has been quite an increase in post office business. For example, the sale of monesr orders and postal notes last year amounted to $498,000,000, and this year, $611,000,000, a record figure. That is only one illustration of how business has increased. The restoration of two deliveries a day has also necessitated employing a great many more letter carriers in the cities.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: The department is budgeting for an increase of $180,000 for temporary help. I suppose the same explanation would apply there, an anticipated expansion of business?


Ernest Bertrand: I could give details of the number of extra employees taken on, especially at Christmas, if the hon. member wanted them. I have here some figures as

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to the increase in postage stamp sales, and postage paid in cash, which may be of interest to the hon. member and the committee. The figures are as follows:
Progressive statement of increase or decrease in postage stamp sales and postage paid in cash compared with the same month of the previous year since April 1, 1946:
	Increase	Decrease
April, 1946 		$ 39,830.43	
May, 1946 			$ 8.666.33
June, 1946 			107,539.45
July, 1946 		556.548.94	
August, 1946 		515,668.41	
September. 1946 ... .	379,587.00	
October, 1946 		476,655.78	
November, 1946 ....	596.205.29	
December, 1946 		927,946.09	
January, 1947 		375,075.83	
February. 1947 		413,840.9,1	
March, 1947 		167,540.14	
Total for the year	$4,332,693.04	
April, .1947 ....	$440,724.16	
May, 1947 		693,723.00


Wilfrid Garfield Case: The temporary employees are, I understand, more or less seasonal employees. Can it be anticipated that they will become permanent?


Ernest Bertrand: A certain number of temporary employees are employed full time the year round. If they succeed in passing an examination and are returned men they get the preference in appointment. If not, they have to wait until their turn on the eligible list is reached. At Christmas we take temporary employees on by the thousands. More than 5,000 temporary employees are taken on at Toronto for the Christmas rush.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: How long has a temporary employee to serve in the department before he is eligible for permanent employment?


Ernest Bertrand: At least one year, but during, the war we took on a lot of temporary employees who have now served for two, three, four and five years. I do not like it when we have to tell them that we have to replace them by the veterans, but that is the law and we have to comply with it.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: When the minister asked for an increase of $2,387,714 in his estimate, is that simply to provide for the normal expansion of service such as the minister indicated by the monthly increases which he gave a moment ago of post office business?


Ernest Bertrand: Yes.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: As to the bonus for rural mail carriers, are the carriers still eligible to apply for the bonus, or has that all been completed?


Ernest Bertrand: It is not completed. We have applications coming in all the time.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: And you are still giving consideration to it?


Ernest Bertrand: Yes. We have one year during which we may increase their compensation.


John Lambert Gibson: I realize that the minister and his officials are giving careful consideration to the provision of a letter carrier delivery for Port Alberni. I am sure the minister appreciates that Port Alberni is becoming one of our most important cities in Canada. It is the third largest lumber exporter in the country, a fact which is not very well known. I am sure the minister will recall having visited there while he was minister of fisheries, and I can assure him that he has many good friends there who still remember him very kindly. That city has had the most phenomenal growth of any city in Canada. I should like the hon. member for Davenport to visit us. I am sure it would add greatly to his knowledge.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I have it on my itinerary.


John Lambert Gibson: I sincerely hope that the hon. member can visit us. We have a population of 10,000 and a substantial postal revenue. Unfortunately we are not in the position of some eastern towns. In the good old days when there was a surplus of cement your towns in the east borrowed money and laid sidewalks. Port Alberni is prosperous and is prepared to lay sidewalks but it cannot get any cement. The city council and the board of trade there are anxious to cooperate with the minister, but everybody in that 10.000 population has to crowd into the small post office every evening for the once-a-day distribution of mail, and this creates an almost impossible situation, necessitating the provision of a letter carrier service in the town. That would save the department a large investment in a post office building, which is urgently needed, but which, I appreciate, is difficult to have built at the present time. I and the minister's friends would appreciate it very much if a letter carrier service could be provided for Port Alberni this year.


Ernest Bertrand: I might inform the hon. member that the post office revenue at Port Alberni last year was 841,234. I know the town well. I have been there, and it does not need many more industries to have sidewalks built of lumber for the whole town if cement cannot be obtained.

Supply-Post Office Department


Gordon Knapman Fraser: A few moments ago the minister mentioned the postal rate in the United States. Since the United States postal rate has been reduced to three cents, the people there mail their letters here for three cents and when they are delivered the people in Canada have to pay an extra two cents on them.


Ernest Bertrand: No.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: They have been doing that.


Ernest Bertrand: According to the postal convention, a letter posted in the United States at the United States postal rate, which is three cents today, is delivered anywhere in Canada at that rate, without another cent being asked for.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Extra postage has been demanded on post cards.


Ernest Bertrand: Extra postage might be required if the letter was much overweight, but our postal convention requires us to deliver United States letters to Canada at the prevailing rate in the United States.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Postcards have been sent over here and the recipients have had to pay extra on them. It may have been a mistake on the part of the post office.


Ernest Bertrand: Those were postcards?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Yes.


Ernest Bertrand: They had to put one cent on them. The postcard is printed matter, but it becomes a letter when there is writing on it and we have to collect the one cent here which we account for to the United States. They tax it and we have to collect it and account for it. It is not the Canadian postal authorities who tax; it is the United States authorities. When they get these postcards they tax them, and we have to collect the tax when we deliver the postcard and account for the one cent.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: That may be the reason.


Ernest Bertrand: Yes.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I am glad to have the minister's explanation. It is, of course, a Canadian stamp that is put on it here.


Ernest Bertrand: We have to account for it.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The post office workers throughout Canada asked the department some time ago to restrict or limit the size of envelopes. They object to the wee ones that are sent out by some people. They say it slows up their work. Has anything been done with regard to that?


Ernest Bertrand: We have a letter which we call "Canada air mail" which is used for air mail. One of these days we shall have to emphasize the regulations in so far as light paper for air mail letters is concerned. We have come to the point where, instead of sending fifty air mail letters to the pound, we do not have more than thirty, thirty-one or thirty-two letters to the pound.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: It was the size of the envelopes that the workers were objecting to because there were so many small ones going through. When the minister was talking about the rural mail contractors he did not say whether any who applied for bonuses were refused. Have any been refused?


Ernest Bertrand: Oh, yes.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Does the minister know how many?


Ernest Bertrand: If Mr. Herring were here he would be able to give us the figure, I suppose. There were requests that were absolutely unreasonable and of course they were refused.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Will the minister tell the committee what revenue was received from the sale of stamps to collectors?


Ernest Bertrand: To philatelists; it is extraordinary. The Graham Bell stamps brought in $125,000 before they were issued. The money was sent in by philatelists all over the world who wanted to have that stamp.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: It is almost a clear profit.


Ernest Bertrand: The total
amount for the year is over $300,000.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: That would be almost a clear profit.


Ernest Bertrand: Well, it is.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Velvet.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: "Velvet," the hon. member for Davenport says. The minister has had representations from Peterborough in regard to the crowded post office there and the conditions which exist in that building. After the mail comes in, the sorters have almost to get out of the building because there is no room for them to work. What is the minister doing about the matter?


Ernest Bertrand: I admit that the situation there is very bad. That is one of the post offices that we have considered.


Charles Edward Johnston: The minister mentioned a moment ago that the Bell telephone stamp brought in about $300,000.

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Ernest Bertrand: I said $125,000.


Charles Edward Johnston: Who paid for the cost of printing that stamp, the Post Office Department


Ernest Bertrand: The department.


Charles Edward Johnston: -or the Public Works Department.


Ernest Bertrand: The department. The public works department do not print our papers; they do not print our stamps. They furnish us with good quarters whenever they can, with the buildings; and they maintain the buildings; we pay for the bags; we pay for the printing and everything.


Charles Edward Johnston: Does the public works department pay for the coal, water and light?


Ernest Bertrand: Yes; that is included in the maintenance of the building.


Charles Edward Johnston: When the minister was speaking a while ago he spoke about the tremendous deficit of $492 million in the United States post office department as compared with our own. I wonder whether the United States post office department conducts its business as we do ours in Canada. It seems to me that the Post Office Department is one of those departments which are owned by the government and operated as a monopoly. It is a department which is sometimes used as an illustration of socialism, state ownership. Yet, since the war started, we have raised the price of the stamps one cent. During the first great war we raised the price one cent.


Ernest Bertrand: Not since the war, during the war.


Charles Edward Johnston: About 1941.


Ernest Bertrand: 1943.


Charles Edward Johnston: During the first great war we put on the first extra cent, which brought us from two cents to three cents. Then in 1941. I believe, another cent was put on, which brought it up to four cents. Despite all these increases, our department has had a surplus of something like $11 million.


Ernest Bertrand: Two years ago; this year it is $8 million.


Charles Edward Johnston: Despite these surpluses, the department does not pay any of its overhead expenses. Whoever heard of a business being conducted in that way? The Department of Public Works takes care of all the expenses. If there is any renting of buildings' the Department of Public Works pays for it; if there are any repairs to be done to the
buildings the Department of Public Works pays for it. If they need coal, water, light or anything like that the Department of Public Works pays for it. The minister says that they supply the paper for their own stamps. In view of that, I should like to suggest to the Postmaster General that he make a request to have the price of postage stamps reduced by at least one cent.


Ernest Bertrand: I explained a few minutes ago that doing that would cost the treasury $11 million, and that is just by reducing the postage one cent on first-class mail letters.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Out would go your surplus.


Ernest Bertrand: Yes.


Charles Edward Johnston: That being so, would it be true to say that it would cost us $11 million.


Ernest Bertrand: Yes.


Charles Edward Johnston: I think the minister said that the increase was put on for taxation purposes.


Ernest Bertrand: Yes.


Charles Edward Johnston: That would reduce our revenue by $11 million. I do not think the Post Office Department is one of the most inefficiently run departments, but certainly from the financial point of view it produces less returns than any private business would consider a fair return. It has absolutely no overhead expenses, no upkeep whatever. Surely it could never be said and should not be said in the public accounts or in the estimates that the Post Office Department pays its way, because it does not. It would go in the hole if it had to pay a fair and equitable amount of expenses such as any other business is forced to do.


Robert William Gladstone: The hon. member will find that all departments are on the same basis. That is the system, which is followed. I do not think one can find any department that pays its light, heat, water and rent.


Charles Edward Johnston: The hon. member knows that the Post Office Department is in an entirely different category. It is a revenue producing department; the others are not. Even if what he has said were true, which it is not, that would be no reason why the Post Office Department should carry on in such a manner.


Ernest Bertrand: The first
statement I made was that we do not give these figures as a profit. It is not a profit at all; it is simply an operating surplus. We

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are one part of the government of Canada and the public works department is there to put up buildings when necessary and to maintain them. By calculating what we should pay, we could say whether we were arriving at a surplus or not. I explained that when I began. We would arrive at a surplus of about $4 million by calculating the rental which we would pay if we were an independent business. But I have never said, and I do not wish to be understood as saying, that the $8 million is a profit. I repeat, it is not a profit at all.


Mr. PROBE:: I wish to come into this
discussion for a moment at this stage because of what my genial friend the hon. member for Bow River said with respect to the socialist aspect of the Post Office Department. I would indicate to the Postmaster Genera! one way whereby he could increase his revenue by over $7 million. I asked the Postmaster General a question which was answered on April 2 of this year with respect to postal matters. The answer will be found at page 1967 of Hansard. I asked certain questions with reference to second-class mail matter handled by the Post Office Department. Among other questions, I asked him what was the estimated profit or loss to the department in the handling of periodicals in the years 1944, 1945 and 1946. I was referring to newspapers and periodicals generally, and the answer I received from the department was that the loss in handling newspapers and periodicals is estimated at $7,287,400 per annum. Now out of a total budget of the Postmaster General's department this year of $67 million, the one item of handling second-class mail matter, showing an estimated loss per annum of some seven and a quarter million dollars, seems to me to be something that should be explained by the minister. Most second-class mail matter consists of newspapers which carry an extensive paid-advertising section or sections in the papers, and those sections are, particularly among the larger and bulkier periodicals, a definite source of profitable revenue to the newspapers and periodicals. It would seem to me that, instead of giving these large newspaper syndicates special concessions by way of carrying charges, so that the Canadian people, in addition to the huge advertising costs that undoubtedly are collected in the course of each year, pay the sum of $7,287,400 for carrying advertising for which the Canadian public pays in a variety of ways, the minister could improve the balance sheet of his department by placing increased charges particularly on the heavy periodicals. Those that carry a certain per 
centage of advertising should definitely pay a considerably larger amount than they are now doing for matter handled b3r the department. May I ask what the minister's policy is with respect to the tariff schedules charged for second-class mail matter? I should be pleased to have a brief statement.


Ernest Bertrand: It has always been the policy of the government, ever since 1882, to favour the newspapers-


John Oliver Probe: I know that.


Ernest Bertrand: -on the
ground that it is some kind of education which is being distributed to the public. The rate has varied. In 1888 it was one cent a pound, and it became postal free. In 1899 it was one quarter of a cent a pound between the first of January and the thirtieth of June and then one-half cent a pound from the first of July, 1899. Coming to our days, it is now one cent for weeklies or monthlies published in cities with a population of 10,000, but within forty miles of those towns which are less than
10,000	the distribution is made free.


John Oliver Probe: For 500 only, is it not? It is for a very limited number. I have no quarrel with that procedure. That is all right because that is local distribution.


Ernest Bertrand: For circulation under 10,000 copies per issue it is one cent, and over 10,000 copies per issue it is one and one-half cents. Where space is devoted to advertising the law says that fifty per cent is permissible in advertising and fifty per cent in reading matter; and, so as not to quarrel, we count from fifty-four per cent. The law says fifty per cent, and it has always been that way, but they may have advertising matter to the extent of fifty-four per cent. If they exceed fifty-four per cent and they are caught, as happens quite often, we charge them four cents a pound on all that section of the newspaper which covers advertising. I have no figures here, and I should not like to mention the newspapers that have paid fines, but some have paid heavy fines. All this is for the purpose of giving the public reading matter at a very low cost. I admit that if we charged the newspapers what the service costs the department, we would save $7,287,000. In the United States they are trying to raise the rate from three cents to four cents, and from what I read in the newspapers there is an attempt to charge the higher postal rates. But I doubt very much whether they will succeed. At all events, I would prefer to wait until they succeed before we start the same operation here.


John Oliver Probe: But I see no reason why we should not precede the United States in

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putting our foot down on a practice which, I think, is not altogether one of share-the-wealth. The minister has given us an excellent explanation as to the historical background of how the newspapers have been expanding at the expense of the Canadian public. He might go into the matter of charging this increased rate of four cents a . pound, as I understood him to say, for the entire amount of each newspaper's advertising section. On that basis I am sure the minister would' have no difficulty in recouping the Canadian people for the seven and a quarter million dollars which we are now paying as a subsidy to the newspapers. The newspapers could not very well complain, because that portion of the newspaper is definitely extra revenue material. I do not see why the fifty per cent portion of the newspaper space is allowed to advertising and the carrying charge is made on the basis of one cenit. May I ask a further question? Is the mileage which the newspapers and periodicals are transported within Canada considered at all in his department's assessment of the carriage rate for second-class mail matter?


Ernest Bertrand: No, it is not. It is just like a letter.


John Oliver Probe: A letter amply pays for its own weight to any portion of Canada, but second-class mail matter does not. Therefore distance should be a factor.


Ernest Bertrand: In any event, it is not counted.


Mr. MENARY:: Coming as I do from a rural, district, I should like to ask if something could not be worked out so that rural mail carriers would get a more equal salary. In my riding I know of a returned soldier who took a mail route of twenty-two miles for $825. He cannot carry it. There are other mail routes in my riding which have been put up at tender, and the tender has been too high. There is one route there paying $1,500 a year, and other routes of an equal distance are being carried for about $850. Can something not be worked out whereby these men will get a living wage? There is another man in my riding who took a route of twenty-two miles for $1,200. He told me he had $2,000 in cash out of his sale when he went in to operate that route. He operated the route for three years, and said he had spent his $2,000 and did not get a dollar out of it. So he gave up the route. I could mention the route, although the minister may know of it. It seems that these boys and old men come off the farm, go in there and think they can run these routes and make quite a big amount of money. Then they find they cannot live.
They have to get a horse or a car, and sometimes two horses. Could some fair proposition not be worked out for them so that they would get a living wage?


The CHAIRMAN:: Order. It appears to me that some of the discussion which has taken place tonight could more appropriately take place on the particular item concerned. For instance, .the discusion on rural mail routes could, I would think, take place on item 265, air and land mail services. Other similar discussions could more appropriately take place on the individual votes rather than on the administration item. This is a suggestion I make to the committee.


John George Diefenbaker: Just in that connection, may I point out that the minister himself, in opening up the discussion of the estimates this evening, brought this matter in. That is the reason it is being discussed at this time. The minister led the way and others are merely following his lead.


William Ross Macdonald: Does the committee not agree with me that it might be better to consider the matters as they are called by the Chair?


Mr. JACKMAN:: After this.


George Russell Boucher: I think it is customary on the first item to allow considerable leeway. Probably more progress could be made in that way. I think the minister would be quite willing to answer my deskmate's question at this time. It will save its being asked later.


William Ross Macdonald: If I might interrupt, as the hon. member for Rosedale and some others have stated, after this question is answered, does the committee not feel that we should proceed as I have suggested?


George Russell Boucher: I think every other member would say that procedure should be followed after his particular question is answered. Now that this is up for fairly general discussion, I think we had better cover as much ground as we can.
There is a point I should like to draw to the minister's attention, and he might answer when, he answers my colleague. Could the post office not be a little more careful in the issuing of stamps, and have them properly centred? This is a business in Canada and in the world which our philatelists follow carefully. They have a certain pride-and it is a commendable one-in the collection of stamps of various kinds and descriptions. These stamps bring fairly high prices. For instance, the minister spoke of the Alexander Graham Bell stamp, so many of which issue

Supply-Post Office Department
were sold. This business has a material place in the revenue. I do not think Canada is any worse than any other country, but we should like to think we are a little better. I should like to see these stamps issued with a little more care. I could give the minister illustrations of my criticism right from my own- office in the House of Commons. I should like to see the stamps better centred, and better stamped. In cancelling the stamps, I should like to see the post offices throughout the country use machines which were a little more in keeping with good taste, to the end that the stamps might not be all smudged up and destroyed, as they very often are. A little care and attention on the part of the postmasters and the people who publish the stamps might very well improve the situation, and put us in a position where we could be proud of our stamps, and our philatelists would be better pleased in that regard. I would ask the minister to make a statement on that when he gives his answer to my hon. friend.


Ernest Bertrand: The statement is short. It has happened that stamps are spoiled. My attention has been drawn to that; I have asked my officials to see to it and given instructions that they be more careful.


John Lambert Gibson: I do not think the matter raised by the hon. member for Regina should be allowed to drop. Anybody who makes a suggestion for the saving of $7,000,000 to the Canadian taxpayers has really got something. We ought to enlist the services of the best minds we have around here and get them working on it. Every time I think of the difficulty we have in establishing mail services in small towns-I understand the minister has financial problems, and I can appreciate them-I realize that this $7,000,000 would go a great distance in helping out many of the members here with regard to the postal problems in their ridings. When I think of our dragging carloads of these Toronto Weekly Stars-and we will just take that as an example; I imagine that is the worst offender-


John Oliver Probe: Try the Globe and Mail.


John Lambert Gibson: We are dragging carloads of these newspapers over the mountains, and I imagine the department is absorbing that mountain differential about which so much has been said in British Columbia. When one thinks of the educational features of that paper, what does he find? The bulk of the weekly edition consists of Orphan Annie, Dagwood and various fantastic articles on what science might do one hundred years from now.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: The hon. member must be a careful reader of that paper.


John Lambert Gibson: As a matter of fact, I avoid it assiduously; I can assure the hon. member of that. But we do not get enough revenue out of that newspaper to pay for its delivery after its gets to Vancouver, let alone to pay the Canadian Pacific and the Canadian National what they must ' charge for taking it over there. We are having great difficulty in British Columbia in obtaining sufficient newsprint to publish newspapers large enough to contain all the news we have to print; yet we see these thick newspapers brought in from Ontario at the expense of the taxpayers. I think it is about time we quit subsidizing these newspaper millionaires in Canada. It may have been an excellent plan in 1882, before we had the radio, but I believe we in western Canada could certainly do without a great deal of the type of literature that is shipped the longest distance at the least expense. If I never see the Star out there I can get along very well.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
262. Post offices, including salaries and other expenses of headquarters and staff post offices and supplies and equipment for revenue post offices, $30,838,101.
Harry Rutherford Jackman: How much was collected last year in overdue postage? If one receives mail from the United States it may lack one cent; one has to pay two cents, and there always has to be someone at home to pay the postage, otherwise the postman does not deliver it.


Ernest Bertrand: We do not keep track of that. I suppose the hon. gentleman is speaking of postcards with something written on them, which may come in with only a one-cent stamp?


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Would that require three cents or two cents, coming from the United States? What is the rate from the United States to Canada on postcards?


Ernest Bertrand: One cent.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: And if anything is written on the postcard it is three cents?


Ernest Bertrand: Correct.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: From the United States to Canada?


Ernest Bertrand: Yes.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: But there are no records showing how much was collected in overdue postage? I imagine it would be a small amount, and I suggest that probably it costs the Post Office Department more to collect

Supply-Post Office Department
it than it is worth. I do not think any substantial amount of mail would be sent purposely with less than the required postage.


Ernest Bertrand: It is a comparatively small amount. Of course the United States also collects for us whenever a letter is loaded too heavily, for example. We receive the letter and give instructions on it to collect so much and that amount is collected in the United States. We collect when they give us instructions to do so, but we do not keep a special account for that. As I think the insurance companies say, it Is knock for knock.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: This matter of overdue postage-


Ernest Bertrand: It is a very small amount.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: I would expect it to be, but it is a great nuisance to people, and I think it comes about through inadvertence rather than intent.


Ernest Bertrand: But if we did not collect it, and that became known, it might become a custom.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: One might think it would become a custom if it were known that the post office would not collect overdue postage, but I point out that if one wished to do so, where letters are sent out by the thousand one could ship them over to the United States and use the United States three-cent rate as against the Canadian four-cent rate, if I followed the minister a moment ago. People do not do those things, however; it is not worth while. If the Post. Office Department delivered this underpaid mail, particularly and perhaps exclusively when it comes from another postal jurisdiction, without collecting the extra charge, I do not think they would lose anything. I am sure the cost of collection must be greater than the amount collected, without considering the inconvenience to the people, because, as I said, they cannot get their mail unless they happen to be at home to give the postman the two cents, or whatever the amount may be. Then the postman has to write that down on a form and I suppose that form has to be audited. So, if the Post Office Department had records showing the cost of collection I believe they would find they were actually out of pocket. I would! suggest that the Postmaster General give this freedom of postage, if I might use that term, a trial; then if he found it abused he might have to revert to the old system.


Ernest Bertrand: I must tell the hon. gentleman this is one of the obligations imposed under the contract with the postal union. It is done all over the world.
Mr. JACKMAN; All I can ask, then, is that the Postmaster General use his good influence when he attends the next international convention.


Lewis Menary: Would the minister answer my question, please, in regard to rural mail carriers?
The CHAIRMAN; Order. Would the committee carry item 262 first?


John Ritchie MacNicol: No. I want to ask a question on it.


Ernest Bertrand: I will answer the question first. There are not many items in my department; as the hon. member for Lake Centre said, I was probably the first offender because I wanted to give an over-all picture of the department, and then the discussion continued.
As to the question asked by the hon. gentleman, these tenders are called from a certain class of people, who perhaps are not chartered accountants. By that I mean they did not have the chance to go to college. This is the tender principle, and it is unfortunate when these tenders come in too low. We do not like that, as a matter of fact; but the law obliges us to accept the lowest tender, and if we do not do that we fall into difficulties. For that reason we have varied the contracts to give these tenderers a chance after three months' notice to get out of their contracts, if they so desire. But that is the principle in force in all departments, except that the contracts given by the Post Office Department are for smaller amounts. As I said when we passed the act in regard to supplements, I had a bill prepared this year to increase the amount of a contract the Postmaster General may give without asking for tenders. That amount should be around $1,000, but it is only $200 today. The bill I had prepared put the figure at $500; but I withdrew that bill, and I do not know whether I shall bring it in another year. Such legislation would be some kind of protection to these people. At the same time, of course, it might give someone an opportunity to favour a man of his own party, whoever might be in office. I would not do that, of course; but it is a possibility, and for that reason we have been asking for tenders.


John Ritchie MacNicol: When the estimates were up a year ago I brought to the attention of the minister the fact that postal foremen of letter carriers in substations had not been given the advance they had been promised.

Supply-Post Office Department
Have the salaries of postal foremen in substations been advanced to what they should be?


Ernest Bertrand: I am told they have now been adjusted. First, we adjusted the rank and file, and now they have all been adjusted.	.


John Ritchie MacNicol: What is the rate now?


Ernest Bertrand: If the hon. member would give us a position, for example, we would be able to give him the information more quickly.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Take any of the branch post offices in Toronto; station "L" for example.


Ernest Bertrand: I can get
the information and give it to the hon. member privately. But I can give my word we have adjusted them all.


John Ritchie MacNicol: In a number of the
branch post offices in Toronto the letters are sorted in the basement.


Ernest Bertrand: At Christmas time that has to be done, because of pressure of work.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am not finding fault;
the basements I have been in are quite satisfactory. But in the summer months they are extremely warm on account of lack of ventilation. Has the department considered putting in fans?


Ernest Bertrand: I shall take
a note of that, and make representations to the Department of Public Works.


Mr. CAMPBELL:: I understand that class "B" post office employees are not civil servants; is that correct?


Ernest Bertrand: They are
not. We have revenue postmasters who are paid so much out of revenue, and are not civil service employees. They do not pay anything for superannuation, and do not receive pensions when they leave their positions. Their employees are paid by the postmasters of those offices. Then, in class "2B" the postmaster is a civil servant, but his employees are not. The department fixes the rate at which they are to be paid.


Alexander Maxwell (Max) Campbell: Last winter the starting wage was $87 a month for new employees. The town of Lloydminster in my constituency is growing rapidly, and at the present time is experiencing an oil boom. At that point the postmaster has found it impossible to get help at .$87 a month. Those workers in the post office, along, with the postmaster, are working fifty-two hours a week. I have taken fMr. MacNicol.]
the matter up with the deputy minister, but I do not know whether any change has been made.


Ernest Bertrand: I am informed that he has those representations on his desk, and that he is looking into the matter.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Are the salaries received
by postal clerks the same in all offices? For instance, are they the same in the Charlottetown and Toronto offices? Is a man doing the same work and putting in the same hours in those respective offices paid on the same basis?


Ernest Bertrand: The postal
clerks in the small cities do not reach the same maximum as those in large cities such as Toronto, because they do not have as much work.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: The}'' are doing the same
work and putting in the same hours.


Ernest Bertrand: No, the work is not as difficult. To sort mail in the larger cities they have to pass examinations, and it is much more difficult.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I understand that the
minister's department has received certain recommendations with reference to the post office at Sussex, New Brunswick. What changes or alterations have been recommended? In my opinion there should also be a new post office building in that town. The present one was built in 1889, when Sir George Foster represented the constituency. The population has increased from less than 1,000 to nearly 4,000.


Ernest Bertrand: We are
making a change in that post office. I am told there is an item in the public wmrks estimates for that.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: The item has been recommended by the Post Office Department?


Ernest Bertrand: Yes, we are
making changes there. I understand that a staircase is to be built on the outside.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: What changes have been
recommended?


Ernest Bertrand: I shall write
the hon. member to tell him that.


George Russell Boucher: I understand that there are some smaller post offices the revenue of which is determined by the amount of postage stamps they sell. Mail delivery is given at those offices. I have in mind the post office at Woodroffe. just outside the city of Ottawa, where mail delivery is given, but where the revenue to the postmaster is not sufficient to permit his giving a proper service and having

Supply-Post Office Department
a regular establishment. Could the Postmaster General do something for such post offices which would enable the postmaster to give efficient service to the people in the community who want their mail delivered, but who are working in the city of Ottawa, for instance, and do not buy postage stamps or register their mail at that office, and in this way do not contribute to its revenue, or to the revenues which would normally come to a post office?
When answering that, would the minister give some information respecting the requirements of the Post Office Department as to the number of people in an area where mail delivery will be given? We know that street conditions, the numbering of streets and matters of that kind are considered. However I know of some areas where mail delivery is given and other areas more congested where it is not given. What is the yardstick used by the Post Office Department in deciding which areas shall get delivery and which shall not?


Ernest Bertrand: With respect to the first question, the people who receive their mail at a post office are supposed to buy their stamps there. The hon. member will realize, however, how difficult it would be to enforce that expectation, particularly in view of the fact that people will buy their stamps in the city when they are coming to the city each day. They do not save anything by so doing, and perhaps they cheat the postmaster at the office where they get their mail. They drop their letters in the boxes in the city.
If in his question the hon. member is referring to the giving of a letter carrier service to a small town immediately adjacent to Ottawa, for example, the reply would be that we do not need 2,000 points of call because we would simply be extending the service given in the larger Ottawa area. To give a direct answer, I would have to have a survey made of the area in question.


George Russell Boucher: Perhaps I can put my .question more clearly. An extension was given recently to a certain street in my constituency. It happens that two streets farther on there are more residents requiring the service. I believe they merit that service, but the extension was not made far enough to include those two streets where the population is more congested than it is in the area in which it was given.


Ernest Bertrand: We will look into that.


George Russell Boucher: I have been speaking about mail delivery at McKellar, which is not in
Ottawa, and also mail delivery in Ottawa West and in Westboro south of the railway tracks, noth of which areas are deserving of service.


Ernest Bertrand: I will look into the matter.


John George Diefenbaker: What has been the net increase in the number of employees of the Post Office Department appointed by the civil service commission since May 1, 1945?


Ernest Bertrand: Does the hon. member mean the increase in money?


John George Diefenbaker: No, the increase in numbers.


Ernest Bertrand: I have no comparative figures as far back as that but we could furnish them later. I have comparative figures for 1946 and 1947. For departmental administration as of April 1, 1946, we had 118 permanent and 56 temporary employees, or a total of 174. As of April 1, 1947, we had 102 permanent and 73 temporary employees, or a total of 175. The grand total for post office headquarters administration, inspectors, railway mail service, air and land mail service was, as of April 1, 1946, 662 permanent and 520 temporary employees, or a total of 1,182. As of April 1, 1947, there were 592 permanent and 557 temporary employees, a total of 1,149 as against 1,182 the previous year. So that there was a small reduction here at headquarters.
I have also the number of employees in staff post, offices, in district offices and in the railway mail service as of the dates indicated. As of July 31, 1945, the grand total of employees was 13,196, an increase of 1,597. As of May 31, 1946, the grand total of employees was 14,293, an increase of 1,097. As of February 28, 1947, the grand total was 14,678, an increase of 385. The number of temporaries had increased on that date by 848, and there was a decrease of 463 in the permanent employees. We are making temporaries permanent as we go along.


John George Diefenbaker: These figures do not very well fit in with an answer which the minister gave me the other day in sessional paper No. 106N, in answer to the question:
How many appointments to permanent or temporary positions with salaries per annum
(a)	under $2,000;	(b) between $2,000 and
$3,000; (e) over $3,000, have been made to the civil service since May 9, 1945?
The answer so far as the Post Office Department was concerned was (a) permanent 57, temporary 6,129; (b) permanent 19, temporary 1.
It is pointed out in this return that this does not include postmasters whose remuneration is based on the revenue of their offices. This reply would indicate an increase of some

Supply-Post Office Department
6,000	employees, permanent and temporary, during a period of two years. That is tlhe reason I asked my question, because it appeared to me that either a mistake is made in this return or a substantial error has been made by the minister in the answer he has given to the committee.


Ernest Bertrand: If the answer the hon. gentleman has quoted is for the post office, there is a big error there.


John George Diefenbaker: That is why I asked that question as to how many appointments to temporary and permanent positions had been made in the past two years and what had been the increase in the two years. I wish the minister would procure that information, because this return would indicate a phenomenal increase in the number of employees during the past two years.
The next question I wanted to ask the minister is this. In this return I asked whether or not the veterans preference was being followed in making appointments to the civil service. I wish to ask the minister that question as to his department. Is the veterans preference being lived up to?


Ernest Bertrand: Definitely.
Almost every day we are replacing temporary employees who have been there for years, some of them for five years, with veterans.


John George Diefenbaker: I appreciate that answer from the minister, because from this return the indication is that in some other departments there is a serious departure from the veterans preference, since it sets forth in detail the numbers who have been appointed to the civil service in that period of two years and shows that 11,094 males who were not entitled to the veterans preference were appointed to the civil service in a period of two years. That indicates a substantial departure from the veterans preference. Could the minister indicate what precentage of the 6,000 odd appointments made to the Post Office Department in the past two years have been of those entitled to the veterans preference?


Ernest Bertrand: I have not that information here, but I have a memorandum which might throw some light on the hon. gentleman's question. It is a memorandum addressed to acting deputy postmaster general, as follows:
Re:	Temporary employees-Operating
Service
Total temporary staff	
Temporary employees entitled to the veterans' preference	
Comprised of-
(a)	Those qualified by examination	
3,946(b)	Those not qualified by examination    	
1,098

Postal
6,412
5,044
I might point out that the civil service commission has made a new rule recently that if a veteran tries his examination and does not succeed he is given a second chance later.


John George Diefenbaker: When was that ruling made?


Ernest Bertrand: Very recently, a week or so ago. The memorandum continues:
Temporary civilian employees	 1,368
Comprised of

(a)	Those qualified by examination	
1,080(b)	Those not qualified by examination	
267(c)	Those who are marriedwomen	
21


John George Diefenbaker: How many of those are veterans?


Ernest Bertrand: Those are civilian employees. Those who qualified) by examination, 1,080; those not qualified 267; those who are married women, 21, or a total of 1,368 civilians as against 5,044 returned employees entitled to veterans preference.


John George Diefenbaker: In the event that there is a vacancy in the rural post office, is the preference given to the veteran??


Ernest Bertrand: Yes, every time that a veteran falls within the regulation-he has to live for twelve months in the place of work, for example-we give him the preference.


John George Diefenbaker: There is no departure from that?


Ernest Bertrand: No. There might be a departure if the man is found not fit to fill the job. For example, today I received a complaint on moral grounds about the preference that had been given. We have not yet decided on the question. We have asked those who made the complaints to furnish us with the proof. If it is found that the complaint is true we shall have to withdraw the appointment, but only if it is proved beyond the shadow of a doubt.


Angus MacInnis: I should like to ask a question for the purpose of information. When I was in Vancouver a little while ago it was drawn to my attention that many businesses were installing stamping machines, or at least a system of providing their own stamps so that stamps were not bought at the local post offices. That curtails the revenue which goes to the small post office. When letter stamping machines, or whatever the technical name is, are installed in a plant or a factory or a store or something of that kind, in a small community in a city served by a sub-post office, is the revenue from that

Supply-Post Office Department
machine credited to the sub-post office or to the central post office in. the city?


Ernest Bertrand: It is credited to the central post office. A sub-post office does not handle the mail. When the subpost office is a small office we pay a minimum.


Angus MacInnis: That is quite true, but the postmaster in this post office where I do the little business I have to do told me that within recent times-as the minister knows, in every city there are small business communities which are easily served by a sub-post office-several large buyers of stamps and post office money orders and so forth-my question would apply only to stamps-have put in stamping machines and he was deprived of this business. Consequently his remuneration was much less than it formerly was and otherwise would be if the machines were not installed. I was wondering whether some method could be employed so that in a given area the business that the sub-post office would have received had the machines not been installed could be credited to the sub-post office.


Ernest Bertrand: If the subpost office handles the mail of the big company which has the meters-we call them meters; they pass their mail through the meters which are checked by the officials- they would get consideration. But usually these letters are not handled by the sub-post offices. The mail goes in the bag and then to the main post office. If they were handled by the sub-postmaster he would have the right to have the revenue from them.


George Henry Stokes: Some time ago the minister said that he was filing answers to questions. Probably the question I am about to ask has already been answered. I am speaking of conditions in the town of Trenton where in 1945 letter delivery in the town was first requested, The revenue was then over 840,000. Trenton is known as a town with the population of a city, over 10,000. There are more residents on the east side of the Trent river than on the west side. They have to walk across a long bridge to get to the post office which is on the west side of the town. What is the situation with regard to the application for letter delivery in the town of Trenton?
I should like to ask the minister a question with regard to the establishing of sub-post offices. During the war a request was made to establish a sub-post office in an area outside the city of Belleville. This area is quite densely populated and known as College Hill. Through that area there is a single rural mail route travelled. These people are quite a distance from the post office and are anxious
to know how they can be served with a daily mail service.


Ernest Bertrand: My officers are going to get the answers because figures are involved. I shall give the answer in a little while.


Louis-Philippe Picard: The post office in every rural community is usually considered as the embodiment of" the federal government. It is about the only connection these people have with the federal administration. My remarks on this item might very well have been directed to the Minister of Public Works when his estimates were before the committee. Post offices have been, as one hon. member suggested tonight, more or less the neglected children in the last six or eight years. Owing to the war we had to curtail our expenditure in building; in many parts of Canada we have post offices not exactly what they should be, and in many other parts of the country we have a real need for new post office buildings. As I understand it, the Department of Public Works has decided that post offices might be built in cities where the revenue was over $10,000. I believe that this figure might be regarded as more or less an arbitrary one, because we have many progressive little communities where the post office may not have that revenue and where there is real need for buildings for federal services and especially post offices. I am told that whenever the department or the Postmaster General makes such recommendations to the public works department they are given special consideration, but yet we are tied up by the over-all rule. I wish that consideration were given to small centres. I have in my constituency a point where in 1939 the Postmaster General's department recommended1 the construction of a post office. It was approved by the public works department and the contract signed, but the contractor, for reasons of his own, did not start work right away. The fall came and it was too late for him to start building the post office. Early in 1940, owing to the recommendations of the Minister of Finance, those contracts which had not yet been started, in respect of buildings not yet being erected, had to be stopped. I wish the department would take into consideration as early as possible the advisability of providing more post office buildings in the small progressive centres throughout the country.


Ernest Bertrand: As I said a few minutes ago, we hope to be able next year to build quite a number, and those already started will be given immediate consideration.
As to the question asked about Trenton, that is a great prospective office. The revenue

Supply-Post Office Department
for 1945-46 was $54,344, and the number of householder points of call, 2,020. According to these figures, the city does qualify for letter carriers. There may be something else, but if the hon. gentleman wishes us to make a thorough examination and give an answer in writing we shall do so.


George Henry Stokes: In prosecuting this matter in 1946, some officials of the department said to me, "Your revenue is up in the required brackets, but remember that Trenton was a war-boom town. Where will you be next year?" I assured them that we were on safe ground, and the figures quoted by the minister bear me out, because it was ten thousand higher than it was in the last year of the war. I thank the minister for the consideration.


Douglas King Hazen: May I ask the minister a question along the lines of some asked by the hon. member for Lake Centre. The question is this: In the case of the establishment of sub-post offices, or a change in or the appointment of a postmaster to a sub-post office, is the veteran always given the preference?


Ernest Bertrand: In a sub-post office, as the hon. member will realize, location is the main thing and we grant sub-post offices mainly on the basis of locations so as to serve the surrounding district. It did happen in Montreal, however, that the man in a sub-post office died and another man bought the trade and wanted to have the sub-post office. Before granting the request, however, we advertised through the Legion to see whether in the surrounding district there were veterans who wished to have it. We are expecting an answer before we grant it. We favour the veterans wherever we can.


Douglas King Hazen: I am glad to hear that. I do not know whether the minister is aware of the conditions in Saint John but I would appreciate it if he would let me know why a veteran named Gray, a young man in the city of Saint John, did not receive the appointment and was not put in charge of a sub-post office, as had been promised.


Ernest Bertrand: When was that?


Douglas King Hazen: Within the last six months.


Ernest Bertrand: I will inquire and write to the hon. gentleman.


Douglas King Hazen: I should like to get an answer.


John Sylvester Aloysius Sinnott: Following up the remarks of the hon. member for Bellechasse regarding some of the smaller centres, I may say that there is a progressive town in my constituency at Pine Falls, where approximately $2 million is to be spent this coming year. The post

office which is there now is just an old shack which possibly was built when the town had a population of about two hundred. There is now a population of over two thousand. In view of the fact that this is a progressive little town and that a good deal of money is being spent there, I hope the Postmaster General will take into consideration the building of a new post office there this coming year.


Ernest Bertrand: I will make a note of the hon. gentleman's remarks.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
265. Air and land mail services, $17,028,943.
Thomas John Bentley: On the first item tonight I asked the minister whether we would get a delivery service in Swift Current this year. I asked the question then so as to give him an opportunity to cogitate, to think the matter over. I am sure Swift Current has met the required conditions. I asked him to give me some assurance or otherwise-it would not take long-as to whether we shall get that service. I would ask him now to give me an answer, even if it is only a brief yes or no.


Ernest Bertrand: If the hon. gentleman wishes to believe me, I will do the utmost to give him service, and he will probably know very soon, that is, when the supple-mentaries come down.
(Translation):


Antoine-Philéas Côté: Mr. Chairman, as regards the closing of post offices on Sunday, I understand it was ordered following requests made throughout the country, first by those whose duty it is to see that the Lord's Day is observed, and in the second place by postmasters. Despite the requests from those twm quartern, which, I understand, have compelled the minister to take such a decision, perhaps irrevocably, notwithstanding a tradition which went back to the time when the department came inito being, would it not be possible to leave at least some discretion to those postmasters who wish to keep their offices open at least for one hour on Sunday after mass, for the benefit of people who live far away and who are unable to call for their mail except on Sunday. I believe the department could avoid the expense which such closing entails, through subsequent requests for the establishment of a rural mail service.


Ernest Bertrand: As the hon. member knows, that matter was decided upon when I became Postmaster General. We are often requested to reopen the post offices on Sunday. After considering the matter seriously, we came to the conclusion that in some

Supply-Post Office Department
localities it would have been preferable to keep the post office open, since there was no rural mail service. We are now reconsidering the matter.
(Text):


Percy Ellis Wright: The minister has been most genial toward hon. members with regard to the consideration of requests for various things. I should like to speak for a group in western Canada who have been trying for many years to have more rural routes established there. In travelling through the three western provinces, one is surprised at the small number of rural routes. I do not believe that over ten to fifteen per cent of our rural population is so served, while in eastern Canada I am sure that ninety per cent of the rural population is served by rural routes. Not only that, but on a number of our western routes, and, I believe, on the majority of them, mail deliveries are made only twice a week. If the minister has the figures, I should like him to give the number of rural routes in Manitoba, Alberta and Saskatchewan, the number of applications which have been made for rural routes in those provinces during the last year and the number that he has been able to grant.


Ernest Bertrand: I must say that we have these figures, but I have not them here. I admit that the western provinces are not served by rural mail delivery as well as some other provinces, and we intend to do something to correct that situation.


Percy Ellis Wright: I hope the minister does. I know, of course, there are greater difficulties out there.


Ernest Bertrand: Expenses are higher.


Percy Ellis Wright: Yes; the distances are greater. But with the better roads out there now, a great many of these routes should be established in the near future. Last year the minister gave a break-down of the cost of mailing parcels to Great Britain and to Europe, as between the amount which the Canadian post office received, the amount which the shipping companies received and the amount which went to the post office in the country of delivery. At that time I was very much surprised to see the proportion of the dollar spent in postage which went to the shipping companies. The minister stated that was because of the high rates which had been placed on shipping during the war, and that new contracts were being negotiated. How far has the minister progressed in negotiating these new contracts? Can he give the committee a break-down of those costs today as compared with a year ago?


Ernest Bertrand: I do not remember that I said the war was responsible for the high price charged by the company.


Percy Ellis Wright: Well, insurance rates.


Ernest Bertrand: It is true that it cost us that. Although the amount paid by the Canadian mailer of a parcel seems to be high, very little stays in Canada. I remember that on a parcel of eleven pounds, for example, there was only thirty-seven cents which stayed in Canada. England was taking around fifty-five or fifty-nine cents for delivering that parcel to a point a short distance away from Liverpool. We were taking thirty-seven cents to take the parcel in Vancouver and bring it to Halifax. Then the company was taking so much, according to*the cubic content and the size of the parcel of eleven pounds. On a parcel of twenty pounds it was a little different. It is difficult to ask the English postal authorities to reduce their rates. They reduced them early this year and we have passed that reduction on to the Canadian shipper.


Percy Ellis Wright: I realize that, but it seemed to me that the shipping companies were getting the larger share of the amount payable.


Ernest Bertrand: We have
taken that up with the companies and they have refused to make any reduction.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Does the department
know whether it is making or losing money on postal notes and money orders?


Ernest Bertrand: According to my officials, we are just about breaking even.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Some years ago I understood that there was a flat percentage rate on these money orders, and that it was found that for the small amounts people would use the post office, while for the larger amounts, where there was a sliding scale in effect, the people would use private companies such as the express companies, I suppose. As a result, I understand that the post office changed its rate on money orders, so that in place of a flat percentage rate, there was a sliding scale. The buyer paid a lower percentage if he bought a large amount, and therefore the post office competed on a fairer basis with the private companies. May I ask what the result of that was? Did it take place? I am informed by a good source, namely, the previous postmaster general, that it did.


Ernest Bertrand: The acting deputy minister says that he does not remem-
Supply-Post Office Department

ber that, and he has been here for forty years. Perhaps the hon. member wants to talk about the parcel post as compared with the express post.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: No. I understand that it is with regard to money orders.


Ernest Bertrand: I have been Postmaster General for only two years. I am told it was never on a percentage basis.


Thomas John Bentley: I understand that Trans-Canada Air Lines is going to arrange for a stop at the airport at Swift Current. Will that automatically give Swift Current air mail service?


Ernest Bertrand: Yes.
(Translation):


Mr.   COTJE@Matapedia-Matane: Am I to understand, Mr. Chairman, that the erection of post office buildings in various localities depends on two considerations, which are that the revenue must be above $10,000, and the population must exceed 10,000? This means that the department will not erect post office buiidings in rural constituencies where the revenue is less than $10,000, before having provided for such buildings in the larger centres of this country?


Ernest Bertrand: Mr. Chairman, there is no hard and fast rule. However, we have to consider first the larger centres, but we hope to be able to give a chance to various constituencies where the population is not very large.


Antoine-Philéas Côté: Will our chance come some time during the present fiscal year, or shall we have to wait till doomsday?


Ernest Bertrand: Next year.
(Text):


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
266. Audit of revenue, money order, postal note and savings bank business; issue of postage stamps and postal notes, $2,197,990.
Thomas John Bentley: I want to make a recommendation to the minister at this time. It is with reference to a class of post office employees or workers who were mentioned once before tonight, and who have been mentioned, I expect, many times in debate, and who, it seems to me, are out of luck. I refer to those who are paid according to the revenue which the post office takes in; I think they get a percentage of last year's stamp sales, besides what they get this year. In some of these smaller places the postmaster is required 
to be on the job all day long and is prevented from having any side line; still he is not paid enough to be able to put very much away. Until eleven o'clock last evening we were discussing other ways of taking care of such people, and it was generally admitted that the method being discussed in that debate was not quite enough to bring up the incomes of these people to whatever the maximum may be according to their marital status. So that I believe the postal authorities and the government generally should be giving some consideration to a scheme under which these people will be given a retiring allowance. I know one postmaster who is a little over eighty years of age. He would like to retire, but he cannot very well live on what he would get as an old age pension, certainly not on what it has been up to the present; and in the past his earnings have not been great enough to permit him to save anything for his old age. I wish the minister would give some consideration to this matter.


Ernest Bertrand: I must tell the hon. gentleman that this question is at present being studied in the department.


Thomas John Bentley: Then try to get that study culminated before this old chap dies, will you?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
S58. General administration, $273,043.
John George Diefenbaker: 
Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


James Lorimer Ilsley: As the minister to whom the Royal Canadian Mounted Police is now responsible, I cannot but appreciate the remarks of the hon. gentleman who has just resumed his seat; and the applause with which they were received indicates that he was merely expressing the sentiments of the committee.
I should like to answer some of the specific questions asked by the hon. gentleman, because it seems to me that the answers are absolutely conclusive. His first objection or complaint was that promotions were held up for too long. The proportion of non-commissioned officers to constables is higher than it has ever been before in the history of the force; there is one non-commissioned officer to every constable. In the administration of
a force, one cannot simply go on promoting for the sake of meeting the personal requirements of the constables, if you overload the force completely with those who are not constables. That is the reason promotions cannot be made faster than they are being made at the present time.


John George Diefenbaker: Could that be covered by adding to the amount paid after a certain period of time and making the increment equivalent to that in non-commissioned ranks?


James Lorimer Ilsley: The question of pay is another thing. The pay of the force must be kept in line, or should be kept in line with what is fair for police forces in the country. I think that is the only responsible way to look at the matter. When my hon. friend talks about the pay of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police being low he should take into consideration the other privileges which members of that force have in addition to pay, including such matters as pension privileges, and the like. One cannot simply segregate the per diem wages or remuneration of the members of a force, unless he also takes into account the other numerous and valuable privileges the members of that force have.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Are there first and
second-class constables?


James Lorimer Ilsley: Yes, there are first, second and third-class constables.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: With varying pay rates?


James Lorimer Ilsley: Yes, with varying pay rates. And there are corporals, sergeants and staff sergeants. Without having studied the matter, I should think that to put the pay purely on a basis of time served, instead of upon rank attained, would be a bad organization of a force. I do not believe it would be done; and I am speaking without having considered the question from all angles. But it would seem to me that, in business or in any other organization, the mere putting in of a certain number of months or years should not be the only requirement for a raise in pay. The important thing is that the pay should be adjusted to the rank.
Then the hon. member raised the point about the marriage regulations. This afternoon the commissioner told me that eighty-three per cent of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police are married. I ask him what he considered would be a reasonable proportion of a police force to be married. Hon. members. must bear in mind that it would be out of the question to have a police force were too many were married, because the obstacles in
4812	COMMONS
Supply-Royal Canadian Mounted Police
connection, with mobility which arise from a state of affairs like that are most serious. At the present time there is difficulty in getting thirty-four men for the northern service because of the unwillingness of the married men to go on missions of that kind. There are the further difficulties of moving their families and taking children out of school. There ought to be a substantial proportion of the force who are single. The commissioner told me today that perhaps a proportion of thirty per cent single men would be a reasonable one. Many police forces have a much higher proportion than that. However, in this force only seventeen per cent are single. Therefore there must be these marriage regulations. That is the reason for them.
In organizing and administering a force of this kind, one can be ever so sympathetic to the personal requirements or desires of the members of the force, but there are overriding considerations in the public interest which have to be served.


Eric Bowness McKay: What are the rates of pay of the various classes of constables, noncommissioned officers and1 officers of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police?


James Lorimer Ilsley: The pay of first-class constables is $3.25 a day to $3.50 a day, or per annum it is $1,186.25 to $1,277.50. The pay of second-class constables is $3 a day, or $1,095 per annum, and of third-class constables it is $2.75 a day, or $1,003.75 per annum. In addition to that, there are allowances. Officers living out of quarters may be granted a genera! living allowance not exceeding $4 a day, or $1,460 a year. Non-commissioned officers and constables living out of quarters may be granted a general living allowance at the following rates: married, $2.25 a day or $821.25 per annum; single, $1.50 a day, or $547.50 per annum.


Angus MacInnis: I should like to say a word on the point raised by the hon. member for Lake Centre. I believe that some day we shall have to face the issue in an all-embracing way. We have to concede today that it is not the individual or the ability that receives the high salary. It is the position. Having made the position, we apply the salary to it. Then, if a promotion is made the individual gets the salary.
Let us take the cases of constables A and B who joined the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. We will assume they both have similar qualifications and similar devotion to duty. They have served their apprenticeship, or whatever the term is, in the first, second and third classes. Then a promotion is to be made. Constable A is chosen for the position, and [Mr. Ilsley.l
receives the salary and other advantages going with it. Constable B has to remain in the force, unless he wishes to get out, although he has the same qualifications and the same devotion to duty as constable A has.
When the question of pension comes up, the pensions are usually based on the salary received. So that any justice or fairness is purely arbitrary.


James Lorimer Ilsley: I am afraid I do not understand the hon. member.


Angus MacInnis: Perhaps not.


James Lorimer Ilsley: He is taking a hypothetical case of two men of exactly equal ability and devotion to duty.


Angus MacInnis: Yes.


James Lorimer Ilsley: There is only one position open. One is taken and the other is not.


Angus MacInnis: Yes.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Are there ever two men of exactly equal ability and devotion to duty? In an examination, is it not always the case of someone exercising his discretion to select the better of two men to discharge the position?


Angus MacInnis: Even if there is an examination, I do not believe an examination can ever give a true indication of an individual's ability.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Possibly the judgment of his superior can.


Angus MacInnis: Even the judgment of his superiors may be wrong, and the man with lesser ability may be appointed. It is the same way with the selection of judges. So many factors enter into the selection, intangibles that depend upon the likes and dislikes of those making the appointment. I am not finding fault with the minister or his department. I am merely showing that our arrangements in the matter are purely arbitrary and, in their operation, quite discriminatory. They do not do fairness as between individuals or groups. I am satisfied that if we are to have a well ordered society we shall have to find some way by which we can put people on a more equal basis than is achieved by these arbitrary decisions.


James Lorimer Ilsley: I usually agree with my hon. friend in most of the things he says in this house, but I do not think he has made a case against anything but human nature in his argument tonight.


Angus MacInnis: Far be it from me to try to make a case against human nature. But human nature is not a static thing. Human

Royal Canadian Mounted Police
nature reacts according to its environment. In one environment the same individual reacts one way, and in another environment he reacts another way. I am not finding fault with the minister. I am merely trying to show the flaws in our ways of doing things. A place of rank and position carries with it implications that give the children and grandchildren of the individual occupying that position certain advantages which other people have not, regardless of their ability or their service to the community. When the minister gets more time to think over what I have said I am sure he will agree with me.


George Randolph Pearkes: Might I suggest that
there is no service in which luck plays a greater part than it does in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. For instance, two constables go out to two different detachments. A crime is committed in one of these detachments and no crime is committed in the other. The constable who has had several crimes committed in his detachment is, of course, brought to the notice of his superior officers, whereas the other poor man merely puts in his weekly and monthly reports. While he does his work conscientiously, he does not enjoy the same opportunities which the constable had whose good fortune it was to be in a detachment where a certain amount of crime was committed.
Might I ask how many constables and non-commissioned officers have been promoted to commissioned rank during the past year?


James Lorimer Ilsley: Nine non-commissioned
officers have been promoted to be commissioned officers during the past year.


Eric Bowness McKay: What are the qualifications
for entering the force? Are they higher or lower than pre-war? I have a particular reason for asking, because I have been led to believe that the qualifications have been lowered. That may not be true. Have the qualifications been lowered physically or from the point of view of scholastic attainments?


James Lorimer Ilsley: They are the same now as
before the war.


Eric Bowness McKay: They have never been
changed.


James Lorimer Ilsley: No, but there was a period
when they were lowered.


Eric Bowness McKay: But not now?


James Lorimer Ilsley: No.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I cannot refrain from rising to make one comment on the remarks of the hon. member 83166-307
for Vancouver Bast. Like the minister, I find myself in agreement with the hon. member often, sometimes more often than I should like to admit. But tonight I suggest that the minister has given a complete answer by saying that what the hon. member is complaining against is human nature. At the end of his speech I could not see that we got anywhere except that either we should promote nobody or we should promote everybody.


Thomas John Bentley: I think the statement
of the hon. member for Muskoka-Ontario leaves a little to be desired. I can see the minister's point of view and the difficulties that his officials would have in trying to administer things to suit all human beings in the force or out of it. But I believe one thing that can be given consideration is this. After all, the elements of luck and ability have entered into the active service of the constable. When the time for his retirement or superannuation comes, one thing about human nature that is pretty generally true of all people is that they all need the same to live on. Suppose a man has served well and honourably as a constable and perhaps, through that element of luck which the hon. member for Nanaimo mentioned, has gained a substantial promotion because he was fortunate enough to be in a detachment where crime was committed, and that another man lias given good service, done a good job but did not have that chance of promotion. Nevertheless, when the latter retires he needs just as much to live on as the other fellow that got promoted. So why should their superannuation not be equalized upon their retiremenlt from the force? .


James Lorimer Ilsley: Upwards, I suppose?


Thomas John Bentley: If one man requires 1500 or $200 or $100 a month to live on when he retires, so does the other man. Equalizes it upwards or downwards whichever you like.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Would the hon. gentleman apply that principle to the superannuation of the civil service?


Thomas John Bentley: I would apply it to every single individual in Canada.


James Lorimer Ilsley: The hon. gentleman would equalize all pensions?


Thomas John Bentley: Yes.


James Lorimer Ilsley: And equalize all incomes, too?


Thomas John Bentley: Not necessarily, because when people are drawing an income they are earning. When they retire they get a retire-



Royal Canadian Mounted Police
ment allowance and are not earning any more. But they need the same amount of money to live on.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Do they not require the same amount of income to live on before they retire?
Mr. BENTLEY": Certainly they do, but I do not think the minister would consider that. My statement can stand. I will not argue further with the minister.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: I should like to remind the hon. member for Vancouver East that human nature as he suggests does change, and there is a modern school of psychology, of which I am not a strong supporter, which teaches that people should work for the glory of the work itself and not for the reward that is in it.
I wish to ask the minister about a matter which grieved me very much one year when the estimates of the department were before us. It had to do with men in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police who resigned from the force in order to join His Majesty's forces and take up arms overseas. When they were demobilized some of them were taken back on the strength of the force, and they found that this marriage bar of five years had to be served anew, or perhaps the time they had served with the force before going on active service overseas was taken into account too. In any event, the time during which they served in the armed services did not count in the five years. What I should like to ask is: How many men who were in the R.C.M.P. before the war resigned, and after active service are again members of the R.C.M.P. and are single? The minister knows what I am getting at. If there is an easier way to answer it, it will suit me just as well.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Ninety-eight have come
back to the force. I have not the figures as to whether they are single or how many are single.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: We have a different minister in charge of this department now, and I wonder whether he would give consideration to the fact that the discipline of the force in the eyes of the chief of it required that men stay in the R.C.M.P. rather than resign, as I understood it, to enlist in the active service. It was what I would term iron discipline. It may have been necessary; but it seems to me that if discipline as strong as that is to be exercised, then one does not deserve very much credit for the result. Will the minister give consideration to the fact that men did not get permission to have leave of absence to go

on active service, resigned to enter the armed services and have come back? Will he give consideration to their being permitted to count the time when they were on active service as part of their five-year marriage limitation?
Mr. ILSLEY": I will discuss that matter with the commissioner.


Eric Bowness McKay: Will the minister give the present strength of the force, its distribution, and whether or not the present strength is greater now than it was in 1946?
Mr. ILSLEY":	The present uniformed
strength of the force is 2,490. The second question was whether it had increased during the past year and by how much?


Eric Bowness McKay: Or decreased?
Mr. ILSLEY': There has been an increase of roughly 500 during the past year.


George Russell Boucher: On this item I should like to say a few words. I do not see any other item more appropriate than this one on which to make these remarks. I think I should say a few words of commendation on a certain activity which the mounted police are giving to my personal knowledge. I refer to the courses they are giving by having a constable and various officers speak to the youth of our community, explaining to them the relationship of the police to the public at large. During the last year or so, and particularly during the celebration of the citizenship presentation and explanation, I have had the experience of having a member of the mounted police talk to the youth in the various schools and explain to them the relationship of the police to public maintenance of justice and order and in that way gain the confidence of the youth in the mounted police. It is my frank opinion that one of the greatest things to foster a proper understanding of the administration of justice and confidence in the law of the land is a thorough understanding by our youth of the role of the police in the community, and to understand that the policeman is the protector and the friend of their rights.
On several occasions I have listened to a lecture given by one of the mounted police, and I refer to him particularly, although I believe others deserve commendation as well. I refer to Corporal Ade of this community, who has gone from place to place explaining to the youth the role of the police in the community. I believe that the educational work of the R.C.M.P., who are held in great esteem by the youth of our country, is of the highest order. Having been interested in that

United Nations
work, I took the liberty of asking the mounted police to give me particulars of their programme in that regard and was very glad to receive it. I studied it thoroughly. I say to the Minister of Justice that this work can be carried on extensively to the benefit of our community, and it is one of the best ways of maintaining a law-abiding state and having our youth understand that the policeman is a friend and not an enemy; that justice is something to be sought for, not something to be despised. I say to the commissioner and to the Minister of Justice the people of Canada owe a debt of gratitude to the R.C.M.P. for their action in that regard. I would ask the minister to lend all the encouragement, that he can to that particular work.


Angus MacInnis: A member of this group would like to say something on this item. I would ask the minister if he will allow it to stand, although I will not press the request.


James Lorimer Ilsley: All right.
Item stands.
Progress reported.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Monday, June 30, 1947