1946-04-01

OFFICIAL SECRETS ACT


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: I desire to table a copy of order in council P.C. 1262 of April 1, 1946, which is to-day, approved by the Administrator, revoking order in council P.C. 6444 of October 6, 1945, for the interrogation and, for that purpose, detention of certain persons; also a copy of a letter to the Minister of Justice from counsel to the commissioners, advising the Minister of Justice that it will not be necessary to request further orders under P.C. 6444. As this order is a matter of special interest to the house I might read it so that it will appear in Hansard:
At the Government House at Ottawa, Canada,
the 1st day of April, 1946.
Present, His Excellency the Administrator in
Council.
Whereas the Prime Minister reports that the interrogation of the several persons detained pursuant to orders under the order in council made on October 6, 1945, P.C. 6444, under the authority conferred by parliament by the War Measures Act, as being persons suspected of communicating information to agents of a foreign power, has now been completed and that counsel for the commissioners inquiring into the matter pursuant to the Inquires Act have now advised the Minister of Justice that it will not be necessary to request further orders for detention and interrogation under the said order in council;
Therefore His Excellency the Administrator in Council on the recommendation of the Right Hon. W. L. Mackenzie King, Prime Minister, is pleased to revoke the said order in council P.C. 6444, and it is hereby revoked accordingly.
(Signed) A. D. P. Heeney,
Clerk of the Privy Council.
The letter to the Minister of Justice is dated Justice Building, Ottawa, March 29, 1946, and is as follows:
Dear Sir,
Following our discussions of to-day with regard to the probability of requests for further orders under the provisions of P.C. 6444, as indicated in our letter to you of February 23, 1946, we confirm that, particularly in view or the various prosecutions now pending, and that in such proceedings much evidence, documentary as well as oral, is necessarily being made public, we have advised you that it will not be necessary to request further orders under P.C. 6444.
Yours very truly,
(Signed) E. K. Williams,
G. Fauteux,
D. W. Mundell,
The letter is addressed to the Minister of Justice at Ottawa.
I should like to make one statement to the house on this matter which I am sure hon. members will be pleased to have. It is in reference to an impression respecting the civil service of Canada to which the espionage inquiry may have given rise, but which is quite erroneous and which I feel, in justice to the honour, integrity and good name of the public service of Canada, should be speedily eliminated.
Of the persons whose detention under P.C. 6444 the commission felt it necessary to recommend, and on whom the royal commission has to date reported adversely, not one has been a regular permanent member of the Canadian civil service. All twelve were persons either appointed during the war to temporary positions in the civil service, or temporarily commissioned in the armed forces. I need not remind the house that during the years of war the Canadian people provided hundreds of thousands of men and women for our armed forces, also provided manpower for greatly expanded production in industry and in agriculture, and at the same time personnel for the expanded war-time needs' of government administration and public service. During these years the filling of war-time needs was stretched to the limit. In these circumstances, temporary appointments may occasionally have been made to
Official Secrets Act

some branches of the public servcie on a basis of qualifications less rigid than is customary in selecting personnel for permanent positions in peace time. This would not be surprising. So far, however, as I have been able to ascertain, there is no evidence to date of any carlessness in this matter, among those who were charged with making appointments. In administration and in research, as in production and on the battlefields, Canada's wartime record stands second to none.
I should like to add a word about one of the persons named in a report by the royal commission of inquiry, in reply to a particular question raised in this house.
On Thursday, March 21, the hon. member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker), enquired as to how Mrs. Emma Woikin, who is at present under arrest in connection with the current investigation, came to be in the cypher section of the Department of External Affairs.
Mrs. Woikin was employed by the civil service commission, after examination, in precisely the same way as are other stenographic and clerical personnel who join the government service. I want this to be clearly understood, since the hon. member referred to the fact that Mrs. Woikin is from the constituency of Prince Albert, and it is possible that some persons who do not understand the procedure in these matters might be led by the question to believe that patronage or favour of some sort was involved.
In 1943 the commission was encountering some difficulty in supplying the need for stenographers and typists to meet the war needs of various departments, and travelling examiners were sent throughout the country to recruit suitable persons wherever they could be found available. At one of the examinations held by the civil service examiner in the prairie provinces, Mrs. Emma Woikin of Blaine Lake was a candidate, and was found suitable for work as a typist grade 1.
The usual references were required of Mrs. Woikin and the normal investigation of her background was conducted. The information was that she was born in Canada, came of a good family and the report on her was favourable. As a result, Mrs. Woikin was appointed a typist grade 1 in the passport office of the Department of External Affairs on September 10, 1943.
At the time of Mrs. Woikin's appointment the pressure upon the passport office was severe. However, later in the year it grew less, and five stenographers and typists were released for use elsewhere in the department

Mrs. Woikin's work and record were good, and she was assigned to the cypher section as a typist.
So far as present information discloses, the associations and influences that led Mrs. Woikin to become involved in the network occurred after, and not before, her employment. The possibility of this has to be recognized as one of the limitations upon the protection afforded by any investigation that may be conducted as a prerequisite to employment.


Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: If the Prime Minister will allow a question arising out of the order in council that he has placed before the house revoking P.C. 6444, may I say first that I think the people of Canada will appreciate the revocation of that order and the restoration to this country of the due processes of law. Does this new order in council mean that the commission will not continue to sit, or will it continue with open sittings, and will the ordinary processes of law now be followed? Is the Prime Minister in position to say whether or not, upon the evidence that has been taken before the commission to date, further prosecutions will be instituted, and whether any that are instituted will follow the ordinary course of law in the courts of the country?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I hope I may be able to recall all the questions my hon. friend has asked. First, the commission will continue tq sit. The commissioners have not concluded their work, and I understand they will be issuing another report, possibly in a week or a fortnight. Other persons will be heard before the commission, but I am unable to say whether the commission will sit in camera or in public. The inquiries act under which the commission is carrying on the inquiry allows the commission discretion in the matter of sitting in camera or in public; it is for the commissioners themselves to decide on that point. As to what further prosecutions may take place, I am unable to say. That will depend upon what further investigations there may be, and also, I assume,' upon the opinion of the legal authorities as to what further information, if any, should be laid.


Mr. SMITH (Calgary West):: Are any other persons now held on orders issued under that order in council, or have they all been disposed of?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There are no other persons held under that order. Those who were so held have all been examined.

H ousing



INQUIRY AS TO THIRD INTERIM REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

Hon. GROTE STIRLING (Yale):: Mr. Speaker, may I ask whether it is the intention of the government to distribute copies of the third interim report of the royal commission on the espionage affair? We have received copies of the first two interim reports, but not the third.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes. I gave instructions at the time the report was handed to me to have copies printed. I shall make inquiries as to why they have not been distributed, if they have already been printed.



HOUSING


Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Reconstruction) :: Mr. Speaker, I desire to table copy of order in council P.C. 1184, of March 27, 1946, passed under the powers of the National Emergency Transitional Powers Act, 1945, the Department of Reconstruction Act, 1944, and the Department of Reconstruction and Supply Act, 1945.
The order in council provides a method of restricting the use of building materials for purposes that may be inconsistent with Canada's paramount requirement for an adequate supply of materials for housing. I have previously stated that the number of houses that are to be built during the year 1946 will in all probability be limited by available supplies of building materials. While sources of building materials have been enlarged, the demands for housing, together with the enormous expansion in other types of building, are likely to absorb materials faster than they can be produced.
Steps have already been taken to make the best possible use of available supplies. I have previously called the attention of the house to priority officer order No. P.O. 11, which requires the supplier to fill orders for government housing projects and for houses of individual veterans whose houses are 75 per cent completed. This order will later be enlarged to give priority to all housing for veterans, whether built by the government or by the individual veteran. Nevertheless, priority orders cannot be filled unless the supplies are in the hands of local dealers.
The special committee of the Canadian. Construction Association that has been studying the building supply situation has recommended that steps be taken to restrict certain types of building during the period in which acute shortages will prevail. Certain municipalities and a large number of organ-.
izations, including veterans' organizations, have recommended that all types of construction other than housing be prohibited or controlled.
During the war years, the Department of Munitions and Supply maintained a rigid control of construction for the purpose of providing material for the war. During that period our citizens accepted this control as necessary for the successful prosecution of the war and its regulations were observed. However, after the end of the war, construction control regulations were no longer observed to the same degree. It was recognized by the department that it was impossible to judge from Ottawa the essentiality of different projects and the local conditions which necessarily must govern each decision. For these reasons, construction control was abolished on December 5, 1945.
In considering ways and means of giving effect to the recommendations for reestablishing the building control, we must again face the problem of a method by which due weight can be given to local conditions in deciding what buildings are to be authorized and what buildings are to be prohibited in different localities. The housing problem is not one that normally lies within the jurisdiction of the federal government. The intervention of the federal government in this field was brought about by war conditions. In this transitional period it seems desirable, wherever possible to arrange that the authority which normally exercises jurisdiction in the field of housing shall exercise the additional powers necessary by reason of the housing emergency.
In the matter of prohibiting the construction of buildings where deferment of the project will cause no serious hardships to the public, there is the added advantage that the decision can be made most effectively by the municipality. As hon. members know, a building permit must be obtained from the municipality before any building can be erected within its borders. The most appropriate time and place effectively to curtail unnecessary building is prior to the issuance of the building permit. The authority that issues the building permit is in the best position to determine whether the permit should be issued or deferred, having regard to the possibility of shortages of housing in the area, and having regard to employment conditions in the area.
The order in council therefore provides that-
. . . every municipal body and every officer, employee or agent thereof having authority in relation to building permits shall, in the exercise thereof during the current calendar year, have power
Exit Permits

(a)	to refuse to issue a permit for the erection, alteration or repair of any building or structure; and
(b)	to revoke, cancel or suspend any 'permit which may have been issued for the erection, alteration or repair of any building or structure.
The order in council further provides that-
Where, in any place, a permit from a municipal body or any officer, employee or agent thereof is required by law for the erection, alteration or repair of any building or structure, no person shall erect, alter or repair any building or structure in such place unless such permit shall have been issued therefor and is in full force and effect.
Effective means have been instituted to bring about a fair distribution of building material in all parts of Canada. Steps will be taken to maintain the same equitable distribution. It will then be the duty of each municipality to determine whether its quota of material should properly be used for housing, for industrial projects or otherwise. Should the municipality decide to use its building materials to build motion picture theatres or other places of amusement, that municipality can hardly complain if a shortage develops in materials for construction of houses. I feel certain that every municipality will be impressed with the necessity to provide adequate housing for its population, even if this involves deferring projects that would otherwise be desirable. Therefore I am confident that the right to control issuance of building permits will provide an effective means of building control.
There is still a need for low-rental housing for veterans and, therefore, Wartime Housing Limited is prepared to consider applications for veterans' houses for rent, provided they are received from the municipalities not later than June 1st. I suggest that each municipality should arrive at an early decision as to whether or not wartime houses are desirable under the standard conditions that govern such construction. During 1945 the Wartime Housing building programme was not undertaken until July, and, in the case of certain municipalities, not until late in the autumn, with the result that practically all the building extended over the winter months. It is to avoid this that the deadline of June 1st has been established for applications during 1046.


Mr. FLEMING:: Would the Minister of
Reconstruction permit a question arising out of the statement he has read. He indicates that an attempt will be made to effect an equitable distribution of building materials among the municipalities. Will he indicate to the house the basis upon which that distribution will be
TMr. Howe.]
made? Will it be on the basis of population, or are steps being taken to ascertain the needs of the particular municipalities?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The pattern of distribution
for the past two or three years will be taken as the pattern for the following year; that is the shortage of building materials in the locality will govern the distribution in 1946.



EXIT PERMITS


Hon. J. A. GLEN (Minister of Mines and Resources):: On Friday last the hon. member for Peterborough West (Mr. Fraser) asked the following question of the Prime Minister, as reported on page 394 of Hansard:
Women proceeding to Great Britain have to have exit permits, on which they must state that they are going to reside in Great Britain either permanently, or for at least one or two years. However, in the event of something happening in Canada before the expiration of that time, those persons have to apply in Great Britain to the high commissioner for transportation back to Canada. On such occasions they are treated not as Canadians, but rather as immigrants, and must take their chances on the quota. What is the present situation?
The regulations provide that all women and children under the age of sixteen years proceeding to destinations outside the western hemisphere must have exit permits as a condition of departure from Canada. The issuance of permits is restricted to certain classes, as provided by P.C. 1841. Women and children proceeding overseas for permanent residence come within these classes. All applicants are required to state the purpose for which they desire to leave Canada.
Persons other than those of Canadian birth who have not become aliens, upon leaving Canada for permanent residence abroad, relinquish Canadian domicile, and any who may subsequently apply for readmission to Canada must be dealt with as immigrants as required by the provisions of the Immigration Act. As immigrants are not entitled to priority rating for steamship accommodation, there is no possibility of such persons securing passage to Canada for many months owing to the acute shortage of westbound transatlantic passenger space.
For some time steamship companies required all passengers to sign a statement to the effect that they-the passengers-understood return transportation would not be - available for two years; this was later reduced to one year. No doubt the purpose of this procedure was to impress upon travellers the fact that there was no possibility of an early return to Canada.

Standing Committees
The only difficulty in the way of a person who had secured an exit permit and had gone to England or the United Kingdom temporarily and wished to come back earlier would be simply the lack of transportation accommodation. There would be no loss of his status as a Canadian citizen.


Mr. FRASER:: That applies also to a person on whose exit permit it is indicated that he is staying over there for a year or two years?	.


James Allison Glen: The immigration regulations apply only to those who desire permanent residence' abroad, in which case if they desire to come back they come back as immigrants, such as the hon. member has in mind. But the person who wishes to go over for humanitarian reasons, say to see relatives in the United Kingdom who are seriously ill, and obtains an exit permit, is entitled to return to this country. The difficulty is that there is no steamship accommodation available for them and they may have to wait some time before they can get it.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: They have no priority?


James Allison Glen: No priority.
. LIBRARY OF PARLIAMENT


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That a message he sent to the Senate to acquaint Their Honours that this house has appointed the Honourable the Speaker and Messieurs Adamson, Aylesworth. Black (Chateau-guay-Huntingdon), Bruce, Cardiff, Castleden, Cloutier, Dion, Douglas, Eudes, Fournier (Maisonneuve-Rosemont), Gauthier (Nipis-sing), Gourd, Gingues, Herridge, Henderson, Howe, Jaques, Kidd, Knight, Lapalme, Leger, MacLean, Marier, Marshall, Matthews (Brandon), McGarry, Mcllraith, McKay, Menary, Mitchell, Mullins, Nixon, Pearkes, Prohe, Reid, Richard (Ottawa East), Ross (St, Paul's), Skey, Smith (York North), Stephenson, White (Middlesex East), Winkler, Zaplitny, a committee to 'assist His Honour the Speaker in the direction of the library of parliament, so far as the interests of the House of Commons are concerned, and to act on behalf of the House of Commons ias members of a joint committee of both houses on the library.


Mr. COLD  WELL@: Was not a similar motion passed on Friday last, as reported at page 384 of Hansard? Is this a different matter?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That motion was to appoint the members of the committee. This motion is to acquaint Their Honours with the fact that the committee has been appointed, and with the names of its members.


Mr. COLDWELL:: Two bites at a cherry.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

William Lyon Mackenzie King: That a message be sent to the Senate to acquaint Their Honours that this house has appointed the Honourable the Speaker and Messieurs Black (Yukon), Bradshaw, Breithaupt, Cote (Matapedia-Matane), Coyle, Gariepy, Gladstone, Jutras, Kirk, Laurendeau, Leger, Lesage, Marshall, Mayhew/ McGregor, Melvor, Murphy, Richard (Ottawa East), Rose, 'Strum (Mrs.), Tustin, Wright, a committee to assist His Honour the Speaker "in the direction of the restaurant, so far as the interests of the Commons are concerned, and to act as members of a joint committee of both houses on the restaurant.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

William Lyon Mackenzie King: That a message be sent to the Senate to acquaint Their Honours that this house will unite with them in the formation of a joint committee of both houses, on the subject of the printing of parliament, and that the members of the standing committee on printing, viz., Messieurs Adamson, Arsenault, Aylesworth, Baker, Beaudry, Bertrand (Prescott), Bertrand (Terrebonne), Boivin, Bradette, Bradshaw, Brunelle, Campbell, Castleden, Church, Clark, 'Cote (iSt. Johns-Iberville-Napierville), Dubois, Emmerson, Fontaine, Fraser, Gauthier (Nipis-sing), Gibson (Hamilton West), Golding, Halle, Hansell, Healy, Henderson, Hlynka, Kidd, Kuhl, Lacombe, Lalonde, Lapalme, Lapointe, Lennard, MacLean, MacNaught, Maloney, McOuaig, McCullough (Assiniboia), McDonald (Parry Sound), McGregor, McClure, McMaster, Nicholson, Robinson (Simcoe East), Ross (St. Paul's), Sinclair (Vancouver North), Sinnott, .Strum (Mrs.), Tustin, Viau, White (Hastings-Peter-borough), Winters, will act as members on the part of this house, on the said joint committee on the printing of parliament.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk).
WAR ASSETS-COMMISSION ON SALES OR .	EXCHANGES
['1945\tAmount\nSeptember\t $ 881,729 39\nOctober\t\n1,708,343\t06November\t\n2,508,609\t71December\t\n3,449,783\t41January\t\n4,492,081\t25February\t\n5,900,722\t63']
Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Speaker, this question
refers to a matter that is before the War Assets Corporation. I would have no objection
Questions

to answering it if I knew how to distinguish between commissions, price spreads, and various other rewards. My hon. friend will appreciate that War Assets Corporation deals on a wholesale basis, and that it is difficult to distinguish commissions from price spreads. I would refer him to Campion, page 130, who has a ruling on this point, as follows:
The following are out of order as raising matters for dealing with which the rules provide a more convenient method, viz.-
Questions reflecting on. the conduct of certain persons whose conduct may only be challenged on a substantive motion;
Suggesting amendments to bills, or asking for information which should be moved for us a return-
I call particular attention to this:
-or dealing with matters before a parliamentary committee.
I ask that this question be dropped. The same applies to three subsequent questions, Nos. 54, 62 and 65, all of which are difficult to answer and all of which refer to matters that are being dealt with by a parliamentary committee.


Mr. GRAYDON:: The minister has evidently been reading another kind of literature lately.


Major James William Coldwell: What was the authority quoted?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is Campion's "An Introduction to the- Procedure of the House of Commons".


Gordon Graydon: Just an introduction.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am assured that G. F. M.
Campion is one of the leading authorities.


Major James William Coldwell: Have we not rules of
our own in this house? If we are going to hunt all over the shop to find -various authorities we can. find one to support anything. This would seem to make the rules of parliament like the bible, subject to individual interpretation.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am glad to refer my hon.
friend to Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules and Forms, second edition, citations 664 and 665, which cover the same point.


Mr. CASTLEDEN:: I placed this question on the order paper last October or November and it was not answered last session although I was promised an answer right up to the last day of the session. It simply asks:
What persons of companies, if any, have been paid or allowed commission by surplus War Assets Corporation- on sales or exchange of goods by that corporation?
I understand that commissions have been granted, and whether you call them commis-

sions or price spreads I think the house is entitled to know what commissions have been granted to these companies on the sale or exchange of goods through War Assets Corporation. The minister says that the matter came before the parliamentary committee last year. I withdrew my question last year because the matter was supposed to be gone into by the committee, but nothing was done about it. The committee met only eight times, and we were unable to get the information. I want this question to stand. I do not intend to withdraw it unless ordered to do so by the house.


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend I think is a member of the committee, and it meets tomorrow.


George Hugh Castleden: I am not a member of the committee.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is a perfectly proper question to go before the committee. The officers are there to furnish answers to questions asked. If my hon. friend does not want to distinguish between commissions and price spreads, if we include both, it would run into several hundred transactions and it might not be possible for our people to sort out all the transactions where either commission or price spreads were allowed.


George Hugh Castleden: I understand that sales were -made by War Assets to companies and commissions allowed.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Order. The answer given by the minister is not debatable.


Mr. DIEFENBA  KER@: Mr. Speaker, I do not want to debate the minister's answer, but have I not the right to find out why a perfectly reasonable question like No- 65, to which none of the statements made by the minister apply should be dropped? The question reads-


James Horace King: Order. It is the rule and practice in this house that an answer given by a minister to a question is not debatable, but if hon. members wish to amend the standing orders of the house, that is their privilege. So far as the two other questions mentioned by the minister are concerned, the hon. member can ask for an explanation when we reach them. Question dropped.



Mr. LENNARD:: 1.	Is the Nationail Housing _ Administration conversion plan being extended, in Canada ?
2.	If not, when did the extension cease, -and why?

Questions
3.	How many homos were concerted in Canada under this plan to December 1, 1945?
4.	How many in the area of Hamilton, Ontario, and at what street addresses?
5.	What has been the cost of conversion of such houses in the Hamilton area?
6.	How many inspectors, janitors and other persons are or have 'been employed in connection with the operation of this plan in the Hamilton area?
7.	Who are they, and what .amount is being or has been paid to each of them in salary and expenses ?
Address
46 Arkledun Ave	
166 Main St., West	
68 Arkledun Ave	
79 Arkledun Ave	
415 King St. East	
576 Main St. East	
72 Victoria Ave. South...
70 Main St. West	
28 Myrtle Ave	
51 Blake St	
800 Main St. East	
11 Torrance St. (Burlington)
268 James St. South	
610 King St. East	
393 Aberdeen Ave	
258 Bay St. South	
1078 Beach Blvd	
78 Victoria Ave. South...
609 Beach Blvd	
157 Hughson St. South	
Totals	
6 and 7.
Janitors-
Address-Name-Date Employed-Monthly Salary.
46 Arkledun Ave., A. Hammond, Feb. 3/44-Sept. 30/44, $18.00.
46 Arkledun Ave., Victor Lyle. Oct 10/44-July 19/45, $20/25. (Jan. 1/45)
46 Arkledun Ave., William Haist, July 20/45-Aug. 31/45, $25.00.
46 Arkledun Ave., James Hall, Sept. 1/45-Dec. 1/45, $25.00.
166 Main St. Wlest, Samuel Foss, Aug. 12/44-Dec. 1/45, $23.00.
68 Arkledun Ave., A. Hammond, Mar. 6/44-Sept. 30/44, $16.00.
68 Arkledun Ave., Victor Lyle, Oct. 10/44-July 19/45, $20.00.
68 Arkledun Ave., William Haist, July 20/45-Aug. 31/45, $20.00.
68 Arkledun Awe., James Hall, Sept. 1/45-Dec. 1/45, $20.00.


Mr. ILSLEY:: 1 and 2. The Home Conversion Plan is still in effect but few conversions are taking place because of the lack of availability of large houses suitable for conversion.
3.	Conversions completed as at December 1, 1945, were 246, providing 1964 housing units. Houses in the process of being converted on that date were 14, providing 144 housing units.
4 and 5. Twenty located at:
Total Con-	Owner's Con-	Net Costversion Cost	tribution	to Crown$ 12,066 21	Nil	$	12.066 2113.795 75	$ 1.400 00	12,395 7513,011 16	Nil	13,011 1615,721 56	Nil	15,721 5612,018 37	Nil	12,018 379,359 99	1,812 00	7,547 9912,487 98	150 00	12,337 9810,690 62	215 00	10,475 627,108 48	Nil	7,108 4813,730 56	500 00	13.230 569,877 61	Nil	9.877 6111,587 42	809 00	10,778 4222,544 31	1,125 00	21,419 3124,122 70	Nil	24,122 7010,597 18	Nil	10,597 1818,105 01	1,144 00	16,961 0123,042 89	1,139 00	21,903 8911,455 75	Nil	11,455 7518,322 97	Nil	18.322 9714,244 69	1,494 00	12,750 69$ 283,891 21	$ 9,788 00	S	274,103 2179 Arkledun Ave., A. Hammond Sept. 30/44. $16.00.	1, Mar. 1/44-
79 Arkledun Ave., Victor Lyle, Oct. 10/44-Jiuly 19/45, S20.00/S25.00 (Jan. 1/45)
79 Arkledun Ave., William Haist, July 20/45-Aug. 31/45, $25.00.
79 Arkledun Ave., James. Hall, Sept. 1/45-Dec. 1/45, $25.00.
415 King St. East, A. Hammond, Apr. 1/44-Sept. 30/44, $18.00.
415 King St. East, Mrs. D. Eamshaw, Oct. 1/44-Dec. 1/45, $25.00.
576 Main St. East, A. Hammond, Apr. 20/44-Sept. 30/44, $12.00
576 Main St. East, Victor Lyle, Oct. 10/44-May 7/45, $20.00.
576 Main St. East, Alec Shearer, May 8/45-Dec. 1/45, $20.00.
72 Victoria Ave. S., Mrs. A. Bolton, Apr. 15/44-July 31/45, $14.00/$20.00 (Oct. 1/44)
72 Victoria Ave. S., Mrs. M. Haist, Aug 1/45-Sept. 30/45, $20.00.
Questions

72 Victoria Ave. S.. James Hall, Oct. 1/45-Dec. 1/45, $20.00.
70 Main St. West, Victor Lyle, Oct. 10/44-July 19/45, $20.00.
70 Main St. West, Kathleen Ward, Aug. 1/45-Dec. 1/45, $20.00.
28 Myrtle Ave., Mrs. Alma Williams, Apr. 1/44-June 30/45, $10.00/812.00 (Oct. 1 44)
28 Myrtle Ave., Mrs. L. Whiting, July 1/45-Dec. 1/45, $12.00.
51 Blake St., James Tedford, Aug. 15/44-Aug. 31/44, $18.00.
51 Blake St., Mrs. J. Laverdiere, Oct. 1/44-Dec. 1/45, $22.00.
800 Main St. East, James Tedford, Aug. 8/44-Aug. 31/44, $15.00.
800 Main St. East, Victor Lyle, Oct. 10/44-May 4/45, $20.00.
800 Main St. East, Mrs. E. Eley, May 5/45-Dec. 1/45, $20.00.
11 Torrance St. (Burlington), F. W. Watson, Nov. 20/44-Dec. 1/45, $23.00.
268 James St. South, Victor Lyle, May 1/45-July 19/45, $25.00.
268 James St. South, William Haist, July 20/45-Aug. 31/45, $25.00.
268 James St. South. James Hall, Sept. 1/45-Dec. 1/45, $25.00.
610 King St. East, A. Hammond, Mar. 16/44-Sept. 30/44, $25.00.
610 King St. East, Mrs. Vera Clark, Oct. 1/44-Dec. 1/45, $40.00.
393 Aberdeen Ave.. Mrs. Helen Cullen, Jan. 8/45-Dec. 1/45, $12.00.
258 Bay St. South, Victor Lyle, Jan. 1/45-July 19/45. $24.00.
258 Bay St. South, William Haist, July 20/45-Aug. 31/45, $24.00.
258 Bay St. South, James Hall, Sept. 1/45-Dec. 1/45, $24.00.
1078 Beach Blvd., Mrs. W. Warden, Feb. 3/45-Dec. 1/45, $22.00.
78 Victoria Ave. S., Mrs. E. Westley, Mar. 16/44-Dec. 1/45, $12.00/$20.00 (Oct. 1/44)
609 Beach Blvd., Mrs. Edith Pilling, Apr. 13/44-Dec. 1/45, $18.00.
157 Hughson St. S., Edith Scriver, May 5/45-Dec. 1/45, $20.00.
Note: Dates in brackets indicate effective date of increased remuneration.
It is not possible to state the names of inspectors and other persons employed in Hamilton in connection with the operation of the Conversion Plan, as such persons were engaged in other activities of the National Housing Administration.
Note to answer to question No. 1: That part of part IV of the National Housing Act, 1944, which deals with home extensions, has been proclaimed in effect on April 1, 1946.
(Mr. Usley.]


AIR TRAINING PLAN
Mr. POWER:: 1.	From the date of the closing of the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan, namely, March 31, 1945, to date, how much was expended by Canada on behalf of the United Kingdom for the training of R.A.F. air -personnel?
2.	Was an agreement outside of the British
Commonwealth Air Training Pian^ and apart from the said .plan, entered into -during the year 1945, whereby after the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan had been wound up, namely, on M-arch 31, 1945, United Kingdom personnel! were to be trained in- Canada on a contract basis, iait a price per capita?	'	_
3.	Will the 'amount due by the Un-it-ed Kingdom under the contract mentioned am Flo. 2 above be cancelled through the operation of Arti-ale 7 of the Financial Agreement between-Ga.n-a.ua and the United Kingdom?
4.	How much money was expended by Canada
under the terms of this contract: (a) in- keeping open schools, units and establishments on full, partial, or shadow basis which otherwise would have been Closed -as a consequence of the termination of the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan; (b) in retaining in the service personnel who otherwise would have been -demobilized; (c) for any other purposes connected with -this contract; (d) -in- -actual training of R.A.F. personnel?	_
5.	How much -money was paid to 'Canada iby the government o-f the United Kingdom -in liquidation -of debt arising out of this contract ?


Mr. HOWE:: 1.	During 1945-46-fiscal year, officers of RCAF Headquarters assessed the capitation charges under the provisions of article 17 of the agreement dated 5 Juily, 1945, referred to in Question 2. The capitation fees so assessed amounted to $17,240,407.25 and it is considered that this represents the amount expended by Canada on behalf of the United Kingdom for the training of RAF and RN air personnel, since the agreement included both classifications.
2.	Yes.
3.	No. Under the terms of the agreement noted in question 2 above, the United Kingdom was allowed to discharge this debt by.the amount of contributions of equipment, etc., and in fact contributed $18,772,647.85 made up as follows:
Equipment furnished directly .. $10,855,243 55 Equipment furnished indirectly
through Lend-Lease Act	 5,917,404 30
Cash paid for RAP and RN pay 2,000,000 00

As the amount expended by Canada on behalf of the United Kingdom for the training of RAF and RN personnel amounted to $17,240,407.25 (Answer 1) the United Kingdom became entitled to a net credit in the amount of $1,532,240.60 concerning the Third Air Training Plan and Canada will not be called upon

Questions
to reimburse the United Kingdom for this amount under the terms of articles 1 and 7 of the agreement between Canada and the United Kingdom on the settlement of war claims.
4.	See answer 1 above.
5.	$2,000,000.
Authorized Advanced
Under the War Appropriation (United Kingdom Financing)
Act, 1942
United Kingdom	 $700,000,000	$700,000,000
* Since reduced by repayment to $538,564,403.57.
Under the Export Credits Insurance Act
Belgium 		$ 25,000,000	$ 25,000,000
China 		60,000,000	
Czechoslovakia 	19,000,000	3,191,551Netherlands	125,000,000	25,000,000Netherlands-Indies ....	15,000,000	1,500,000Nonvay 	13,000,000	8,995,000Union of Soviet Social-	ist Republics 	3,000,000	2,775,500Special loan for purchase	of wheat, 1943 and 1944	Union of Soviet Social-	ist' Republics 	10,000,000	10,000,000


CANADIAN LOANS TO OTHER COUNTRIES SINCE 1939
Mr. RAYMOND (Beauharnois-Laprairie):: _ 1. To what countries has Canada made loan* since September, 1939?
2.	What is the rate of interest on such loans?.
3.	What is the repayment date of said loans? Mr. MAYHEW:
1,	2 and 3.	.
Balance Average outstanding interest	Repayment
March 15, 1946	rate	period
$561,279,709 22* Nil Being paid by proceeds of sales or redemptions of British - owned Canadian securities.
25,000,000	3%	1947-76
	3%	1948-77
3,191,551	2i%	1950-5425,000,000	3 05%	1950-761,500,000	2i%	1950-548,995,000	24%	1951-592,775,500	2%	19507,500,000	3%	1946-49
Temporary advances under section 3 of War Appropriation Acts
	Balance outstanding Feb. 28, 1946
Australia 		.... $ 8.091,076 00
Belgium 		.... 5,745,472 00
Czechoslovakia 		.... 912 04
France 		.... 67,425,559 00
Greece 		.... 189 00
India 		.... 48,522,130 03
Netherlands 		.... 12,517,232 39
Newfoundland 		.... 6,908 30
New Zealand 		.... 201,640 00
Norway 		.... 14,046 00
Poland 		.... 8,227 36
Portugal 		.... 255 00
Union of South Africa		.... 4 00
Union of Soviet Socialist	Republics 	.... 9,161,871 16United States 	
63260-27	.... 3,231,397 40
Advances to the United Kingdom under section 3 of the War Appropriation Acts were included in the claims of Canada against the United Kingdom which were offset by claims of the United Kingdom against Canada and the balance of which is to be settled by the payment of $150,000,000 by the United Kingdom to Canada under agreement signed March 6, 1946. The indebtedness of the United Kingdom to Canada under the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan Agreements, the disposition of which is covered by Article 7 of the financial agreement between Canada and the United Kingdom, was carried in the accounts of Canada as an advance under section 3 of the War Appropriation Acts.
Temporary advances under section 3 of the War Appropriation Acts do not normally have any. specific maturity date and are normally payable on demand when the necessary documents are ready for presentation and payment. When it is known that the country

Questions

benefiting from the advance will not wish to psty it off until some later date, for example, following an agreement on the long-term credit, they are requested to agree to the payment of interest except in those cases where the advances made by Canada are offset by arrears of payments owing by Canada to the other country in question. The rate of interest requested by Canada is an appropriate short-term rate where the advance is to be repaid in cash and the rate applicable under a long-term credit agreement, where the advance is to be repaid out of a credit provided by Canada. In accordance with this policy agreement has been reached with the government of France for the payment of interest on the advances made to France at the rate of 3 per cent per annum and the government of the UB.S.R. has been requested to pay interest on the advances made to it, the rate depending on whether the advances are to be paid in cash or from the proceeds of the credit.


SURPLUS WAR ASSETS
Mr. CASTLEDEN:: 
Mr. McILRAITH:: It is impossible to
answer the first question as it is worded. I discussed the matter with the hon. member and I understand that he is prepared to drop the first and second questions without prejudice to his right to reword the questions at a later time.	.
Mr. CASTLEDEN; That was agreed.


George James McIlraith: The answers to 3, 4 and 5 as are as follows:
3.	Chairman: J. H. Berry, President, War Assets Corporation.
Members:	Percy Bengough, President,
Trades and Labour Congress of Canada (Representing Labour). J. F. Desmarais, Iberville, P.Q. (Representing Agriculture). W. D. Matthews, Chief Administrative Officer Department of Externa!Affairs. E. P. Murphy, Deputy Minister, Department of Public

Works. B. G. McIntyre, Comptroller of the Treasury. A. Ross, Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence (Army). Finlay Simis, Secretary, Department of Trade and Commerce. Mrs. C. H. Thorburn, Ottawa (Representing the Householders of Canada).
I.	T. Earl Walker, Department of Transport, W. S. Woods, Deputy Minister, Department of Veterans Affairs.
4.	Under the Surplus Crown Assets Act an annual report, prepared in such form as the Auditor-General may prescribe and containing in reasonable detail particulars of surplus crown assets sold or otherwise disposed of is tabled each' year as soon as possible after the 31st of March.
5.	Double depreciation has been allowed on capital expenditures amounting to $270,930,979.12 as of March 23, 1946.


WAR ASSETS CORPORATION-PRINCE RUPERT AREA- EMPLOYMENT OF UNITED STATES CITIZENS
[Stage Direction]
Mr. ARCHIBALD;
1.	Hais War Assets Corporation any American citizens in it® employ in 'the Prince Rupert area?
2.	If so, wbait is being done ito replace such persons with Canadians?
Mr. McILRAITH;
1.	Yes; two.
2.	One of them has applied for naturalization papers; the other will be replaced on resignation.

Mr. McKAY:: What crop failure bon-us payments have been made to mortgage or -trust companies directly or through their agents in -the province of S'as-kotchewan under the Prairie Farm Assistance Act during (-a) 1944; (b) 1945?


Mr. GARDINER:: (a) None; (b) none.


STEVENSON FIELD AIRPORT, WINNIPEG
Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	Have any definite plans been made for enlarging the airport at Stevenson- Field, Winnipeg (a) immediately; or (b) by successive
stages?
2.	If the answer to question 1 (.b) is yes, wh-at are the various stages contemplated?
3.	Has an estimate been prepared as to -the cost of -the same?
4.	When will work commence on the first of these stages ?


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	No definite plans have been approved) but studies, of a preliminary nature, have been made and are eontinuing.
2,	3 and 4. Answered by 1.

Questions


JAPANESE FARMS-FRASER VALLEY
Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: 1.	How many Japanese farms have been sold in the Fraser Valley?
2.	What is the legal description 'and the price obtained for each property?
3.	When will the balance of Japanese farms be available for purchase, under the Veterans' Land Act?
4.	What steps are being taken to keep them in production pending sale?


Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: I should like to have permission to have Nos. 1 and 2 dropped.


James Horace King: 1 and 2 dropped.


Mr. McCANN:: 3 and 4, order for return.


SHIPMENTS OF WHEAT TO RUSSIA
Mr. JAQUES:: How much Canadian wheat, if any, has been shipped to Russia during the past twelve months?


Mr. MacKINNON:: 7,132,471 bushels.


WAR ASSETS-EQUIPMENT FOR SCHOOLS AND COLLEGES
Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	Have requests been- received from school boards, or other educational bodies, for surplus equipment in the possession of War Assets Corporation which would be useful in schools and colleges ?
2.	Has consideration been given to such requests?
3.	What is (the result of such consideration?


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Yes.
3.	War Assets Corporation, in the disposal of surplus equipment and material to educational institutions,' proceeds as follows: (a) Equipment and material which is saleable may be obtained on purchase, at going market prices; (b) Surplus equipment and material which is not saleable as commercial articles but which has educational value is made available to educational institutions on a basis of indefinite loan, plus the cost of packaging and freight.. Furthermore, order in council P.C. 16, dated January 4, 1946, authorizes the Minister of Labour to contribute, to the extent of 75 percent of the purchase price, towards the purchase of machinery and other training equipment from War Assets Corporation by a province or municipality, for the replacement of machinery or other vocational training equipment which has been used in provincial or municipal vocational training schools or institutes for the training of tradesmen for the armed forces or workers in war industry pursuant to a war emergency training agreement and subject to conditions laid down in the order in council.
63260-27J


WAR - ASSETS-AIRCRAFT AND EQUIPMENT
Mr. McCULLOUGH (Assiniboia):: 1.	How many aircraft of various makes are held by War Assets Corporation at Estevan
airport?
2.	(a) How many airplane tires and wheels have been sold to date by War Assets Corporation; (b) when and to whom were they sold and what was the price in each ease?
3.	What is the last date at which aircraft stored at Estevan airport have been dismantled or destroyed?


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	160.
2.	(a) Prior to January 15, 1946, a detailed record of sales of airplane tires and wheels was not kept. Since January 15, 1946, sales
have been as follows:
Tires	 87
Complete wheels		138
Hubs	 17
Tubes	 74
Main wheels	 766
(b) The following is a record of sales from January 15 to March 25 inclu., 1946:
Name of purchaser Quantity		Unit price
Tires Aircraft Mechanical Salvage, Montreal, P.Q...	1	S 7 5QAircraft Mechanical Salvage, Montreal, P.Q...	62	7 50Modern Plastics Company, Vancouver, B.C....	18	2 50'Charles H. Babb Company, 444 Madison Ave., New York 	4	6 30Charles PI. Babb Company, 444 Madison Ave., New York 	2	2 22Complete wheels General Equipment, Quebec, P.Q	138	15 00Hubs H. Aubin, Vancouver, B.C	16	1 00Aircraft Mechanical Salvage, Montreal, P.Q...	1	7 50Tubes Aircraft Mechanical Salvage, Montreal, P.Q...	62	5 00Modern Plastic^ Company, Vancouver, B.C....	9	1 75Charles H. Babb, Company, 444 Madison Ave., New York 	1	1 87Charles H. Babb, Com-* pany, 444 Madison Ave., New York 	2	.53
Questions
Name of purchaser Main Wheels	Quantity	Unit price
Sair's Tire Exchange,		
*Winnipeg, Man	.... 36	7 50Prenco Engineering, Toronto, Ontario ...	.... 529	7 50Fefferman Hide and	Fur	Company, Limited, Leth-	7 50bridge, Alta	.... 201	The .variance of prices for tires	and tubes
is due to difference in size and condition.
3. March 19, 1945, is the last date at which aircraft stores at Estevan have been dismantled.


RHEUMATIC DISEASES - RESEARCH
Mr. BENTLEY:: 1.	Does the government carry on constant and extensive research and experimentation with a view to finding a cure or cures for the various rheumatic diseases, particularly arthritis?
2.	If not. does the government make financial contributions to voluntary medical or other organizations devoted to such work' ?
3.	To what organizations and in what amounts?
4.	What- is the government doing, specifically. to (a) find ways of eradicating arthritis; (b) assist others to find ways; (c) to help people who suffer from arthritis?
Mr. CLAXTON; Mr. Speaker, since many hon. members are receiving and sending me form letters urging the government to make a contribution to the Canadian Rheumatic Diseases Association, it might be of interest if I answer the questions orally and make a brief statement on this subject.
The answers to questions 1 and 2 are in the negative, and the answer to question 3 follows from the answer to question 2.
Question 4 is covered below.
As hon. members know, matters of health and welfare are primarily the concern of the provinces, and it is considered that research into medical conditions in Canada can best be conducted by hospitals and other institutions actively operating in these fields.
The national research council through its associate committee on medical research does, however, make grants-in-aid for the promotion of medical research. Projects approved by the committee must be carried out under competent direction in unversities or hospitals and medical schools where adequate facilities for such studies are available.
When the associate committee on medical research of the national research council was set up in 1938, rheumatism and arthritis were recognized as being among the diseases to be studied. Due to the intervention of the war active steps could not be taken in these fields.
The committee is, however, prepared to
,(Mr. Mcllraith.]
give consideration to applications for assistance in any project that gives promise of adding to knowledge regarding the cause, methods of, prevention or treatment of arthritis in the same way it does to other medical research projects. No such application is pending at the present time.
With regard to the question of financial contributions to voluntary organizations, I should say that in November, 1945, the Department of National Health and Welfare asked the Dominion Council of Health for advice as to whether or not a grant should be made to the Canadian Rheumatic Diseases Association. The Dominion Council of Health consists of the deputy ministers of health of the dominion and provincial governments and others, and its purpose is to advise the dominion government on health matters. The council found that the association's activities had been largely suspended during the war and that the association had not yet established a programme of activities or secured sufficiently wide support to justify a grant at that time.
As part of its programme of health and social security measures, the dominion government's proposals to the dominion-provincial conference include assistance for complete medical, hospital and nursing service w>hich, if carried out, would provide for the active treatment of rheumatism and arthritis.
Mr. GRAYDON; May I ask the minister if he has offhand the information as to the number of sufferers from arthritis in the dominion? I heard within the last week that the number was very high.	*


Mr. CLAXTON:: I think some of the representations which have been circulated to hon. members suggest that the total number of people who have been crippled from arthritis or rheumatism totals 600,000. My information is that the figure is not anything like that. There may be 600,000 people who suffer in some degree or other from arthritis and rheumatism, the number of people who are actually crippled is very much less than that. When a motion concerning arthritis, which is on the order paper comes before the house I shall be glad to give full information on it.


Major James William Coldwell: May consideration not
be given to establishing a research medical division which would look into all these chronic diseases? There are many persons suffering from them in Canada; and it seems to me that isolated provinces trying to do this work are not nearly as effective as one central organization dealing with all these chronic diseases, including sclerosis.

Questions


Brooke Claxton: There is an associate
medical committee of the national research council which has been established since 1938 expressly for that purpose, among others.


Arthur Leroy Smith: I did not get the minister's answer as to who the persons might be who sought assistance; that was in the part of his statement referring to consideration to applications for assistance. Who does the applying?


Brooke Claxton: Workers who would be
wanting to undertake research work in arthritis or rheumatism ordinarily, doctors and professors at hospitals and medical teaching institutions.


Arthur Leroy Smith: In other
words it is just individuals; there are no organizations that may do this. The reason I am interested is that I have this thing myself, and I have forty-seven letters from people about it, so I would like to know. I am not going to apply, though.


Mr. BENTLEY:: As I asked the question,
I should like to ask for a little more information.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Thomas John Bentley: Others have been asking
questions on this matter, and I just want to get a little more information.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Thomas John Bentley: Thank you very much.


James Horace King: Order. The hon. member cannot ask any further question.


HOSPITALIZATION OF EX-SERVICE PERSONNEL- DEFECTS OF SPEECH
Mr. WRIGHT:: 1.	Is any training given at Christie Street hospital or Scarboro Hall for servicemen and women wh-o suffer from nervous defects of speech and stuttering?
2.	If so. when was this training first initiated and on whose authority?
3.	(a) What methods are used; (b) how long
does the training continue in each case; (c) by whom were these methods prepared; (d) are insulin injections given stutterers at Scarboro Hall? If so, in what amounts and for how long a period ?	*
4.	Since this project was initiated (a) how many stutterers have enrolled to date; (b) how many have been discharged as corrected; '(e) what is the average length of time required for the course of training?
5.	What are the names and salaries of the persons employed in the training of stutterers, and for what period of time has each of these people been employed?


Mr. MACKENZIE:: 1.	Yes.
2.0ctober, 1944; under the authority of the Department of Veterans Affairs Act.
3.	(a) Speech training classes; (b) duration varies according to the nature and length of standing of the condition, of which the speech defect is one of the signs; (c) by the medical service of the Department of Veterans Affairs which follows accepted methods of treatment; (d) not directly for stuttering, although in some cases stutterers have received insulin injections in the course of treatment of their general condition. The amounts given and the duration of such treatment vary according to the nature of the condition being treated.
4.	(a) Forty-eight cases with functional speech defects, in which are included stutterers, have been treated by speech therapy since October, 1944; (b) forty have improved to the point where speech therapy was discontinued; (c) in functional cases, six weeks.
5.	Miss Margaret Christie McCurdy is the speech therapist and cerebral re-educationalist. Monthly salary: $175 plus $3.51 cost of living: bonus. Employed by the Department at Ste.. Annes Hospital, Ste. Anne de Bellevue, Que.,. on April 3, 1945; transferred to Christie St. Hospital, Toronto, on September 14, 1945.


INCOME TAX-CONSTITUTIONAL POWERS OF FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
Mr. JAENICKE:: 
Mr. McCANN:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Taxpayers refusing to file returns or pay tax on consitutional grounds have not been segregated from those who refused or neglected to comply with the Income War Tax Act for other reasons.
3.	Actions are continually instituted against persons who fail to file the required returns under the provisions of sections 41 and 79 of of the Income War Tax Act and proceedings to obtain payment of the tax are continually taken under part IX of the Income War Tax Act against those who refuse or neglect to pay their tax.
4.	Actions taken as described in 3 above have never been successfully defended on constitutional grounds.
<22
Questions


INCOME TAX-$2,500 AND UNDER
Mr. DORION:: What amount was received by the government, during the last five fiscal years, from taxes on incomes of $2,500 and less?
Mr. MoCANN: Statistics of taxes received by fiscal years are not maintained by income levels of the individual taxpayers. Statistical estimates projected on the basis of assessments levied provide the following information for the undernoted five calendar
years.
Estimated total Calendar	tax payable by
year	individualshaving
incomes of $2,500 or less
1945	 $248,000,000
1944		 308,000,000	(D
1943		 350,000,000(2)
1942	
160,000,000	(3)1941	
100,000,000	(4)
(!) Including $48,000,000 refundable to the taxpayers.
(2)	Including $100,000,000 refundable to the taxpayers.
(3)	Including $43,700,000 refundable * to the taxpayers.
(4)	Consisting of $40,000,000 general income tax and $60,000,000 National defence tax; no portion of this amount is refundable.


VETERANS AFFAIRS-HOUSING-ONTARIO
Mr. STEPHENSON:: 1.	When will the four houses being constructed under the Department of Veterans Affairs, small holdings, on No. 2 highway about two miles east of Bowmanville, Ontario, be completed ?
2.	Have any of these houses been sold yet?
3.	If so, to whom and at what price?
4.	Who is the district officer in charge of the Department of Veterans Affairs, small holdings, in the Bowmanville district?
5.	Where is his office located?
6.	What are the boundaries of this district?
7.	How many inspectors are employed to inspect these houses while under construction?
8.	What are their names, their duties and salaries?
9.	When will the houses now under construction at Welcome, Ontario, be completed?
10.	Have any, as yet, been sold and how many houses will be built on this location?


Mr. MACKENZIE:: 1.	Although certain outside work remains to be done these houses are about ready for immediate occupation.
2.	No, but negotiations are under way.
3.	Answered by No. 2.
4.	Mr. E. R. Donaldson, regional supervisor. rMr. McCann.]
5.	Dominion public building, Campbellford, Ont.
6.	Region is comprised of counties of Northumberland, Peterborough, Haliburton, Victoria and Durham.
7.	One.
8.	Daniel MacQuistan, building inspector. $175. per month.
9.	About June 1, 1946.
10.	None sold yet. Present programme calls for completion of four houses on this location.


SUBSIDIES ON AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS
Mr. WRIGHT:: 1.	What subsidies being paid on agricultural products produced in Canada as -at January 1, 1946, have been subsequently discontinued?
2.	What is the present floor price, if any, on these products?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	Subsidies paid on vegetables for canning will not be'paid in 1946.
2.	There are no floor prices on these products
other than minimum prices fixed by some of the provinces.	-


WAR ASSETS-DEBERT HUTS
Mr. STANFIELD:: 1.	How many huts aj Debert camp have been turned over to War Assets Corporation?
2.	What was the amount and value of (a) lumber: (b) other materials, salvaged by War Assets Corporation from these huts?


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	None.
2.	Answered by No. 1.


WARTIME HOUSING-CONSTRUCTION AND MAINTENANCE COSTS, 1942-45
Mr. BRUCE:: 1.	How many housing units were ibuilt by Wartime Housing in the years 1942-43-44-45?
2.	What has been the cost of maintenance on such houses in each of above years?


George James McIlraith: 1:	-	UnitsIn	calendar	year	1942	
7,629In	calendar	year	1943	
6,121In	calendar	year	1944	
1,805In	calendar	year	1945	
1,6182.	Prior to April 1944 costs were not kept separate as between maintenance of houses and staff-houses.
Fiscal year 1944-45, $525,066.00; April 1945 to Feb. 28, 1946, $910,983.00.
Note: Higher cost of maintenance in 1945-46 is due in great part to expenditures on external painting.

Questions


BUTTER AND CHEESE IN STORAGE
Mr. HATFIELD:: 1.	What was the quantity of butter in storage in Canada as at March 1, 1946?
2.	What was the quantity of butter in storage in Canada as at March 1, 1945?
3.	What was the quantity of cheese in storage in Canada as at March 1, i946?
4.	What was the quantity of cheese in storage in Canada as at March 1, 1945?


Mr. MacKINNON:: 1. There were in storage: Creamery butter, 9,663,781 pounds; dairy butter, 17,304 pounds; whey butter, 78,688 pounds; total, 9,759,773 pounds.
2.	There were in storage: creamery butter, 20,223,184 pounds; dairy butter, 51,782 pounds; whey butter, 66,915 pounds; total, 20,341,881 pounds.
3.	There were in storage 19,894,994 pounds.
4.	There were in storage 23,697,271 pounds.


FERTILIZERS AND FERTILIZER CHEMICALS
Mr. HATFIELD:: 1.	What quantities of ready mixed fertilizers have been exported from Canada, and to what countries, during the year 1945?
2.	What quantities of fertilizer chemicals have been exported from Canada during 1945, naming them, and stating to what countries exported ?


James Angus MacKinnon: 1 and 2. Canadian exports of	ready mixed fertilizers and fertilizer chemicals	by countries,during the calendar year 1945	Fertilizers	Ammonium	Fertilizersmanufactured	sulphate	phosphateCountry	Cwt.	Cwt.	Cwt.United Kingdom 	
17,360	690,820British East Africa 	
40	British South Africa 	274,540	317,560Southern Rhodesia 	37,480British India 	4,480	172,160	126,000Ceylon 	77,200	27,200	4,480British Guiana 	40	Barbados 	
40	2,600Jamaica 	11.404	5,500 '	Trinidad 	40	11,200	9,099British West Indies, other..	
3,960	Newfoundland 	
88,083	25	Australia 	
40	469,800	Fiji 	2,440	New Zealand 	
8,000	47,620	Palestine 	
21,000	Brazil 	
640	Colombia 	21,000Cuba 	
1,S00	58Greenland 	
270	France 	
1.095,857	French Africa 	
1.100	Honduras 	
90	Iceland 	
25,500	39,065	50,714Netherlands 	
474,282	Panama 	
2.500	Peru 	
1,500	Portugal 	
19,834	3,000San Domingo 	
13,198	10,000	Alaska 	
1	Hawaii 	
97,300	1,414,700	175,100Porto Rico 	
279,192	Uruguay 	
40	Venezuela 	
2,450	United States 	
5,978,194	1,149,538	1,788,048Totals	
8,225,435	3,623,788	3,225,959
Questions


VETERANS LAND ACT-WELLINGTON NORTH
Mr. MENARY:: How many farms have the Veterans' Land Act purchased in the townships of Erin, East Gara-fraxa, West G-arafraxa, East Luther, West Luther, Arthur, Peel. Maryborough and' Minto, in the riding of Wellington North?


Mr. MACKENZIE:: Erin, 8; East Gara-fraxa, none; West Garafraxa, 1; East Luther, none; West Luther, 2; Arthur, 5; Peel, 6; Maryborough, 4; Minto, 6. As per head office records March 28, 1946.


JAPANESE NATIONALS-DEPORTATIONS
Mr. KNIGHT:: 1.	How many people of Japanese origin have been deported from Canada to date since the end of the war with Japan?
2.	Have any Canadian citizens of Japanese origin been deported in the same period?
3.	If so, how many?
4.	What number of either category are at present being detained and held for deportation?


Mr. MITCHELL:: 1.	None.
2.	No.
3.	Answered by No. 2.
4.	None.	.


WAR ASSETS-TRANSCONA PLANT, DEFENCE INDUSTRIES LIMITED
Mr. WINKLER:: 1.	Has the Department of Munitions and Supply submitted a report to War Assets Corporation of the materials a.t the Tr arise on-a plant of Defence Industries Limited?
2.	If so, how much (in gallons, barrels or pounds) chemicals in liquid form (giving nature) is, or will be listed for sale, and at what price?


Mr. McILRAITII:: 
BEET PRODUCERS-FARM LABOUR
Mr. HENDERSON:: What steps, if any, is the government taking to supply the western Ontario sugar beet pro-dueers with an adequate and efficient supply of farm labour?


Mr. MITCHELL:: The following steps have been taken by the federal Department of Labour in cooperation with the Ontario Department of Agriculture, under the joint Dominion-Provincial farm labour programme:
_ Special interviews of unplaced applicants in local employment offices throughout south-
western Ontario to determine the number of experienced and inexperienced farm workers interested in sugar beet employment this year.
2.	Local meetings, including those attended by managers of local employment offices, provincial agricultural officials and chairmen of county agricultural committees, to discuss local measures to meet labour requirements in sugar beet and other areas of Southwestern Ontario.
3.	A canvass of Japanese families, and single Japanese, in western Canada, interested in employment on farms in the Ontario sugar beet area.
4.	The possibilities of retaining a number of prisoners of war for seasonal work on Canadian farms are under review with other interested authorities.
5.	Plans are under discussion with sugar beet growers and the sugar refineries for establishing a minimum wage rate for sugar beet work, and for providing suitable accommodation for housing and meals, as incentives to available civilian workers to accept employment in the sugar beet fields.
BROADC iST "soldier's WIFE"


Gordon Knapman Fraser: , What is the cost to. the Wartime Prices and Trade Board to produce and broadcast "Soldier's Wife"?


Mr.   MATHEW@: $4,431.7S per week.


HOUSING
Mr. LOCKHART:: 1.	W-hat priorities have been provided for the purchase of essential building materials in the -ease of low cost housing schemes sponsored by the government?
2.	Are the same priorities applicable to individual veterans who undertake construction of their own homes?


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	Priorities officer's order No. P.O. 11, effective March 12th, 1946, requires suppliers of building materials to make prior shipment of building materials listed in schedule A of the order into government approved low cost housing projects for ex-servicemen of world
- war No. 2.
2.	The same priorities have not as yet been made applicable to total quantities of materials required by individual veterans who undertake construction of their homes. However, t}ie same priorities are applicable to -minimum quantities of building -materials required to effect completion of homes being built by individual veterans and which are now at least 75 per cent completed.

Questions


VETERANS LAND ACT-COUNTIES OF LINCOLN AND WELLAND
Mr. LOCKHART:: I.	To date, hew many veterans of World War II have been placed on farms in (a) the county of Lincoln; (b) the county of Welland?
_ 2. What are the names and locations in each instance?
3.	How many applications have been received to date in (a) the county of Lincoln; (to) the county of Welland?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: 1 and 2. Veterans established on farms in Welland and Lincoln as per Head Office Records 28th March, 1946.
County-Veteran's name-Land description Welland-
W. M. Blackie, Pt. lot 13, con. 1, twp. Bertie.
J.	G. Sibbald, Pt. lot 1, con. 9, twp. Bertie. E. D. Geyer, Pt. lot 5, con. 7, twp. Crowland.
D.	E. Byer, Pt. lot 16, con 8, twp. Pelham.
O.	_W. Chambers, Pt. lot 11, con. 9, twp.
Pelham.
S.	R. Rogers, Pt. lot 242, twp. Thorold 1st door N. off Thorold Rd.
W. H. Urquhart, Pt. lots 31 and 32, con. 7, twp. Wainfleet.
W. B. Brown, Pt. lot 40, con. 7, twp. Wainfleet.
Lincoln-*
A. E. Pyett, Pt. lots 17 and 18, con. 5, twp. Caistor.
G.	C. Tufford, Pt. lot 11, con. Broken Front twp. Clinton.
,T. B. Bucht, Pt. lot 12, con. 7, twp. Clinton.
S.	J. Webber, Pt. lot 13, con. 8, twp. Clinton.
E.	G. Gortson, Lot 20, con. 9, and lot 20 in the Gore of con. 9, twp. Clinton.
W. H. LaRose, Pt. lots 16 and 17, con. 1, twp. Gainsboro.
E. J. Taylor, Pt. lot 11, con. 2, twp. Gainsboro.	.
E.	Longbottom, Pts. lots 12 and 13, con. 2, twp. Gainsboro.
G.	R. Moyer, Pt. lot 21, con. 1, twp. Louth. J. W. I. Henry, Pt. Lots 7 and 8, con. 2,
twp. Louth.
H.	H. Usher, Pts. lots 42, 43, 44 and 50 and pt. of govt, allowance for road lying east of lot 50, twp. Niagara.
F.	S. Goring, E| lots 150 and 151, twp. Niagara.
C. T. Bolton, Pt. lot 3, B.F. con., twp. Saltfleet.
3.	Information not available. Counties of Lincoln and Welland are within the area coming under the Dundas regional office. Number of applications for qualification received by that office up to 28th February, 63260-28
1946-full time farming, small holdings and commercial fishing, 1,580. Number of applications for assistance to become established in full time farming, 98; small holdings, 245; commercial fishing 1; as of same date.


HOUSING-VETERANS-ST. CATHARINES
Mr. LOCKHART:: 1.	H-ow many (a) number; (to) types of houses for the exclusive use of veterans have been contracted for at St. Catharines, Ontario?
2.	What was the contract price in each instance ?
3.	To.whom has the contract .been let?
4.	On what date was the first contract awarded ?
5.	How many homes have been completed to date and ready fo# occupancy?


Mr. MACKENZIE:: 
DAY OF PRAYER FOR PEACE IN INDUSTRY
Mr. CHURCH:: What action has been taken toy the government to set aside, by proclamation, some Sunday for a day of prayer for the promotion of peace dn industry, in view of the need of reconversion in industry from war to peace economy?


James Joseph McCann: The suggestion has been
noted but at present this does not appear to be a matter requiring action by the government.


WAR ASSETS-MACHINE TOOLS, ETC.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. FRASER;
1.	What machine tools, equipment, motion picture projectors, typewriters, hand-tools and other material suitable for vocational training and educational instruction have been sold, or turned over toy the War Assets Corporation to educational bodies in Canada?
2.	What is the value of such goods sold, or given, to these bodies according to each (province?
Clarence Decatur Howe: The remarks I made on the first question apply to this one. I would ask that it be dropped.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I do not think this question should be dropped. We should get information about War Assets Corporation. It is employing over five thousand persons and we ought to be able to find out something about it. This has been a hush-bush matter-
Some h.on. MEMBERS: Order.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: -right from the beginning. No one can find out about it and we should have some information.

Questions


James Horace King: The hon. member can ask for the information before ths committee.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Will you please let me
know, Mr. Speaker, when a private member can go before a committee and ask these questions?


James Horace King: Order. I must ask the hon. gentleman to resume his seat. He knows that he should not question the Speaker from the floor of the house. Dropped.


BUTTER EXPORTS
Mr. GAUTHIER (Portneuf):: 1.	How many pounds of butter were exported by Canada in each of the years 1939, 1940, 1941, 1942, 1943, 1944, and 1945?
2.	How many pounds were exported to each
European country?	,


James Angus MacKinnon: 1:
Year	Pounds
1939		 12,398,600
1940		 1,337,600
1941		 1,481.800
1942		 1,600,900
1943		 9,408,600
1944	\ .	4,726,700
1945		 5,598,300
2:
United
Kingdom Norway Year	Lb.	Lb.1939	
11,109,200	....1940	
900	....1941	
10,000	___1942	1943	
7,089,200	___1944	
200	....1945	6,200


RESEARCH ENTERPRISES LIMITED-LEASIDE PLANT
Mr. FLEMING:: 1.	In the case of each of the buildings at the wartime Research Enterprises Limited plant at Leaside, Ontario,
(a)	What was the cost of (1) constructing or otherwise acquiring; (2) equipping the same?
(b)	What disposal has since been made thereof?
(c)	What were the terms of disposal, including (1) price of buildings; (2) price of equipment; (3) undertakings -as to employment of former employees of Research Enterprises Limited, and the number thereof; (4) recognition of collective bargaining agreement between the Research Enterprises Limited and Local 1039 of United Steel Workers of America; (5) date of delivery of possession; (6) name,of purchaser or party otherwise acquiring?
2.	(a) What other offers were received for such plant and equipment in each case?

(b)	What other efforts were made to interest similar or comparable industries to purchase or acquire the said buildings in each case?
(c)	What efforts were made in each case to obtain better terms as to employment of former employees of Research Enterprises Limited, maintenance of wage rates and recognition of the existing collective bargaining agreement?
3.	(a) Who have been or are members of the . board of directors of Research Enterprises Limited, and for what terms have they served or been appointed?
(,b) Who are the present officers, and who were formerly the officers of Research Enterprises Limited?
4.	In the case of all corporations which have acquired any of the said buildings and equipment, who are,
(a)	The directors?
(b)	Officers?
(c)	Solicitors who acted for them in the purchase or acquisition?
5.	In the case of how many of the said buildings has possession been taken by the purchaser or party otherwise acquiring the same, and on what dates?
6.	(a) What buildings and equipment still remain in the ownership of Research Enterprises Limited?
(b)	What use or disposal thereof is intended?
(c)	If disposal is'intended, to whom, and on what terms?
7.	(a) How much space will be used and occupied by Canadian Arsenals Limited?
(b)	How many employees of Research Enterprises Limited will be continued in the employment of Canadian Arsenals Limited?
(c)	Will the collective bargaining agreement between Research Enterprises Limited and Local 1039 of the United Steel Workers of America be recognized and enforced by Cana- -dian Arsenals Limited?
* (d) What type of work and operation will be carried on by Canadian Arsenals Limited?
(e)	What products will they manufacture?
(f)	On what date will Canadian Arsenals Limited take over, or on what date have they taken over, possession of plant or equipment from Research Enterprises Limited?
8.	Have government orders for radar or optical instruments been placed with private industry?
9.	(a) Where will Turbo Research company he
located ?	,
(b) On what operations will it be engaged?
10.	(a) Has the government of the United Kingdom placed any orders for radar equipment since V-J day with Research Enterprises Limited?
(b) Has the government of the United Kingdom intimated a willingness to place such orders, if suitable financing can be arranged?


Clarence Decatur Howe: My previous remarks apply to this question, which, among other things, asks what the government's intentions are with reference to Research Enterprises Limited, thus referring to current transactions as well as to those that have been completed.
I would ask that this question be dropped and the information obtained before the committee.
/

Questions


Donald Methuen Fleming: May I point out that half of these questions do not relate to the disposal of assets, and for that reason I could not obtain the information before the committee since the questions would be outside the scope of reference to the committee. This is the only place I can obtain the information I seek.


James Horace King: Dropped.


Gordon Graydon: On a question of privilege, on what ground does Your Honour say that the question is dropped without the consent of the member who asks it? After all, it is a matter for the house to decide, surely. In three or four instances this afternoon Your Honour has declared a question dropped, and so far as I know the suggestion has come from the government benches and not from the member who asked the question. Either the member must drop it of his own free will or the house itself must decide whether it should be dropped or not.


Mr. POULIOT:: It is not dropped by the member; it is dropped by the Chair.


Gordon Graydon: It has to be dropped by the member.


Jean-François Pouliot: It is dropped by the Chair.


Gordon Graydon: That is not enough.


James Horace King: I would remind the hon. member that it has always been the practice, when the government refuses to answer a question, to declare the question dropped. Moreover, this matter has been discussed by the house on previous occasions; and it has been pointed out that the members who have asked questions which have been dropped will have an opportunity to submit those questions to the committee with a view to having them answered. I think the minister is entitled to ask that the question be dropped.


Gordon Graydon: May I rise again, Your Honour, with great deference, to suggest that if there is disagreement in the house over the question whether or not this particular interrogation should be dropped, then it should be submitted to the house for approval or disapproval. I submit that Your Honour cannot simply say that it is dropped.


James Horace King: 
Gordon Graydon: It is also very disagreeable to the interrogator.	-


James Horace King: If the hon. n^ember will consult Beauchesne and May he will find it clearly indicated that it is the privilege of ministers to refuse to answer questions, either on the ground of public interest or for the reason that members may have their questions answered in the committees that are appointed by the house.


Major James William Coldwell: May I ask, Mr. Speaker, what the citation is, so that we may look it up?


James Horace King: Beauchesne, 307.
Mr. I'LEMING: May I respectfully point out, Mr. Speaker, that the minister has not yet refused to answer the question. All he did was to make a statement in which he argued that the question should not be answered, and asked .that it be dropped. He has not yet refused to answer it.


James Horace King: The fact that the minister asks that the question be dropped is, I think, an indication that he does not wish to answer it.


Gordon Graydon: The position is clear if
that is the case.


James Horace King: Dropped.


* WAR ASSETS-CANADA-UNITED STATES
Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: 1.	Was any arrangement and/or agreement made between the government of Canada and the government of the United States providing that surplus war material shall not he exported from Canada to the United States and from the United States to Canada?
2.	If so, what was the nature of the arrangement or agreement?
3.	If such an arrangement and/or agreement has been entered into, have any instructions been given to Canadian customs officers to refuse entry of United States surplus war materials?
4.	If not, why not?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I propose to answer this
question orally. There is an arrangement between disposal agencies in the United States and in Ganada. It is not an arrangement between governments but simply a working arrangement between disposal agencies. I may say that there is the same arrangement between
42S

Questions
the disposal agencies of Canada and the United Kingdom, namely that the disposal agency in one country will not offer goods in the other country. There is no prohibition against bringing goods across the border, if they are bought in the United States from the United States disposal agency, provided there is no law of the land which prevents them from being brought into Canada.
I think that answers questions 1 and 2. It also answers questions 3 and 4, since in the circumstances there is no occasion to notify customs officers.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Can the minister now go
.ack and answer the question I asked?


CHEESE EXPORTS
Mr. GAUTHIER (Portneuf):: 1.	How many pounds of cheese were exported by Canada in each of the years 1939, 1940, 1941, 1942, 1943, 1944, and 1945?
2.	How many pounds were exported to each European country?


James Angus MacKinnon: Year	Pounds
1939 			 90,944,800
1940 			 106,631,100
1941 		92,331,000
1942 			 141,503,900
1913 		,.. 129,741,000
1944 			 131,429,200
1945 			 135,409,300
Country	1939 Lbs.	1940 Lbs.	1941 Lbs.United Kingdom 	
81,153,800	103,192,400	89,089,100Eire 	4,500	-	Malta 	184,700	-	-Belgium 	152,400	60,500	-France 	
75,500	-	-Germany 	135,000	-	Italy 	1.000	-	Norway 	
18,000	2,200	1,100Iceland 	Country	1943 Lbs.	1944 Lbs.	1945 Lbs.United Kingdom 	
126,604,700	128,S72,900	132,855,400Malta 	
16,000	8.000	-Italy 	
Norway 	z	95,300 500Iceland 	.... 75,600	7,700	-
Lbs.
131,374,000
29,500


*EDWARDS PROPERTY ON OTTAWA RIVER
Mr. FLEMING:: 1.	For what purpose is the crown acquiring the property of Mr. Gordon C. Edwards of Ottawa, located >at a point overlooking the Ottawa river and Governor's bay ?
2.	When is it intended to be put to the purpose for which the crown is acquiring it?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: With regard to part 1 of this question, the property is being acquired in pusuance of the government's policy of securing title to valuable properties on the banks of the Ottawa river in order to preserve them for special purposes and particularly to prevent their acquisition for undesirable uses. The hon. member may be interested to know that just prior to the last war the Right Hon. Sir Robert Borden, then Prime Minister, arranged for the acquisition of properties along the west side of Wellington Street for some distance beyond Bank, and between Wellington street and the

river. He regarded those properties as valuable for future use for governmental purposes. They have since become the site of Confederation building, the Justice building and other departmental buildings in that vicinity.
The second part of the question is:
When is it intended to be put to the purpose for which the crown is acquiring it?
The answer is, at an appropriate time, depending on circumstances. Perhaps my hon. friend does not know, and I might inform him that in the meantime the property continues to be occupied by Mr. Edwards.	'
My purpose in answering this question orally, Mr. Speaker, is to direct attention to the wisdom of the policy of acquiring certain properties , in the interests of the crown. In this connection I should like to draw attention to the emphasis that the fire in Hull on Friday night last has given to the desirability of careful and proper use of land in and about the national capital. That fire endangered the

Questions
whole city of Hull. It partly destroyed the interprovincial bridge. There are oil tanks on adjacent property. If the fire had spread to them they might have exploded, and the wind could easily have carried the flames to the houses of parliament and other government buildings on this side of the Ottawa river.
The significance of Friday night's conflagration should not be allowed to pass unnoticed. Some years ago a fire on the opposite side of the river destroyed much of the city of Hull and seriously menaced this city of Ottawa. If plans for a capital worthy of Canada are to go forward successfully, there must be both a restraint on the use of property by firms and individuals, and a directed effort by the government to hold desirable properties for their best use in accordance with a general plan for the capital and district.


Mr. MacNICOL:: That is what the United States government does along the Potomac.


VETERANS LAND ACT-DURHAM COUNTY
Mr. STEPHENSON:: 1.	How many farms have been (purchased in Durham eounty under the Veterans Land Act?
2.	Where are these farms located and from whom were they purchased?
3.	What acreage is in each farm and what was the .price paid for each?
4.	Has an inspector reported on the quality of the land and the buildings on each farm?
5.	Have the farms previously owned .by Mr. Millson and Mr. Yellowlees, north of Bowman-ville, been purchased by the Veterans Department ?


Mr. MACKENZIE:: 1.	2. 3. and 5. Farms purchased in Durham county as per Head Office Records, March 30th, 1946.
Vendor
Hoey, Herman Mount]oy, Mildred H. F. and R. C. A.
Waddell Assets Ltd. Moore, E. Lloyd Stewart, Harold Lewko, Wm. Robinson, Milton Trull, Fred W. Yellowlees, N. C. Millson, Arthur Hoskin, Glen J.
Land Description
Lots 4 and 5, Con. 5, Cartwright twp	
E-i Lot 23, Con. 5, Cartwright twp	
W.i Lot 21, Con. 13, Cavan twp	
E. Pt. of N.J Lot 3, Con. 1, Clarke twp	
N.-J Lot 6, Con. 3, Clarke twp	
South Pt. Lot 9, Con. 6, Clarke twp	
Pt. Lot 8, Con. 8, Clarke twp	
S.i Lot 28, Con. 8, Clarke twp	
Pt, Lot 28, Con. 6, Darlington twp	
N.W. Parts Lots 29 and 30, Con. 6, Darlington twp. Pt. E.i Lot 11, Con. 8, Darlington twp	
Acreage	Price
. 160	$4,200.00
. 100	4,800.00
. 100	3,620.00
. 80	3,500.00
. 100	3.400.00
. 40	3,300.00>
. 100	4,000.00'
. 120	4,600.00-
. 70	4.800.00'
. 120	8,500.00'
. 45	3,000.001
4.	Yes.
,	NATIONAL DEBT


Mr. FAIR:: 1.	What was the gross national debt of 'Canada at the end of each of the fiscal years: 194243, 1943-44, 1944-45, 1945-46?
2.	What is the amount of (a) -accrued interest; (b) other related commissions and charges, at the end of each of the above years?
3.	What percentage of the total national revenue of each of the above years was required to pay the interest, commissions and charges above ?
4.	What provision has been made to satisfy the above indebtedness?
5.	If present monetary policy is continued, can our national debt ever be repaid? If so, how long will it take?


Mr. MAYHEW:: 1.
Fiscal Year Ended	Total Liabilities
March 31, 1943	$ 9.228,252,012 03
1944		 12,359,123,230 16
1945		 15,712,181,527 26
1946	Not yet available.
2.	While the question asks "what is the-amount of (a) accrued interest; (b) other related commissions and charges, at the end' of each of the above years", the question is answered on the basis of the annual expenditures during the years in question.
Question 3 indicates that the questioner desired the annual expenditures rather than the amount due and unpaid at the fiscal year-end.
Fiscal Year Interest on Other Debt Ended Public Debt Charges
Mar. 31, 1943 ... $ 188,556,249 $ 13,992,646
1944 ...	242,681,180	19,457,8391945 ...	318,994,821	20,851,5911946	... Not yet available.
3.
Fiscal Year Ended Percentage Debt Charge*;
to Total Revenue
March 31, 1943 .
1944	.
1945	.
1946	.
9-48
Not yet available-

Questions
4.	The Dominion of Canada has always paid the full face amount of the principal of and interest on every direct obligation issued by it, all promptly when due in the lawful currency of the country where payable at the time of payment thereof.
In the budget speech delivered in the House *of Commons on February 25, 1937, the Min- -ister of Finance, in referring to an issue of perpetual bonds, stated "it was intended as the initial step in a program which is designed to provide for the consolidation and simplification of our public debt structure. Another purpose which we had in mind was to facilitate the setting up as soon as the condition of our national finances make it practicable, of a general sinking fund to provide for the gradual .amortization of our long term debt on scientific lines."
During the war period and for some years before the dominion government has been operating at a deficit and it has not been possible to provide for the paying off of indebtedness out of revenue. However, the government plans in this respect will be made known at the appropriate time.
5.	Yes.


YALTA CONFERENCE
Mr. RAYMOND (Beauharnois-Laprairie):: 1.	Has the government been informed of the secret agreements reached at the Yalta conference ?
2.	If so, on what date?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	Certain information regarding agreements reached between the governments of the United Kingdom, the United States of America and the U.S.S.R. at the Yalta conference has been received by the Canadian government.
2.	The information was received some time after the conference had concluded its sittings.


UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Maxime Raymond: What amount was paid to the unemployed by the unemployment insurance commission during each of tile following months: September. October. November, December, 1945; January, February, 1946?


Humphrey Mitchell: 1945	Amount
September	 $ 881,729 39
October	
1,708,343	06November	
2,508,609	71December	
3,449,783	41January	
4,492,081	25February	
5,900,722	63



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. MOORE:: What steps have been taken by the government to make use of Font Churchill and Hudson Bay route in the shipping season of 1946?


James Joseph McCann: Return tabled.


SOLWAY AND SONS-STORAGE BATTERIES
Mr. STEWART (Winnipeg North):: 1.	Were storage batteries sold by any department of the government to Solway and Sons, Toronto ?
2.	At what prices were they sold to this firm?
3.	What was the cost of these batteries to the government ?
4.	How many storage batteries were sold to Solway and Sons?
5.	Were batteries sold to the above company
damaged in any way?	[DOT]
6.	If so, whait was the nature of the damage?
7.	How many of these batteries bad been used
before the sale?
8.	Have any batteries been declared surplus by any department of government?


UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE-VETERANS
Mr. McKAY:: 1.	How many veterans were in receipt of unemployment insurance during (a) December, 1945: (b) January, 1946; (c) February, 1946?
2.	How many veterans were in receipt of out-of-work benefits (luring (a) December, 1945; (b) January. 1946; (c) February, 1946?


James Joseph McCann: Return tabled.


CANADIAN TROOPS IN INDIA
[Stage Direction]
Mr. RAYMOND (Beauharnois-Laprairie);
1.	Are there members of the Canadian Army serving in India at present?
2.	If so, how many?
3.	What is their assignment?

[Stage Direction]
Mr. RAY'MOND (Beauharnois-Laprairie):
1.	What was the total! strength of Canadian troops belonging to the various army services, which were outside of Canada on March 14, 1946?
2.	Where are such troops stationed?
3.	How many in each pilace?

Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: 1.	How many applications have been received under the Veterans Land Act for (a) the purchase of farms; (b) small holdings, in the municipalities of Matsqui, Mission, Maple Ridge, Pitt Meadows, and unorganized territory in the Fraser Valley?
2.	How many have been sold (a) farms; (b) small holdings?

Questions as Orders for Returns


JAPANESE FARMS-FRASER VALLEY
Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: 1.	When will the balance of Japanese farms
be available for purchase, under the Veterans Land Act ?	_
2.	What steps are being taken to keep them in production pending sale?



CANADA TEMPERANCE ACT

Mr. BROOKS:: 1.	Is the Canada Temperance Act still in force in any pant of Canada?
2.	If so, in what municipalities and counties in the different provinces?



PRIORITY SYSTEM FOR SERVICEMEN AND REJECTED VOLUNTEERS

Mr. KNIGHT :: 1.	Is there a priority system used .by the government in selecting personnel for government employment as between (a) men who volunteered for active service but who were rejected upon physical grounds; (ib) men with overseas service; (c) men who served in Canada?
2.	What is the order of any such .priority with respect to the above groups?


James Joseph McCann: Return tabled.



WAR ASSETS-STORAGE BATTERIES

Mr. ZAPLITNY:: 1.	Were any storage batteries sold by the War Assets Corporation in 1945 and 1946?
2.	If so, how many, to whom, at what dates and at what prices?
3.	Were these batteries advertised for sale?
4.	How many of these batteries were new?
5.	Were any of these batteries damaged? If so, how many and to what extent?



BUTTER RESERVES

[Stage Direction]
Mr. LACOMBE;
1.	What were the total reserves of butter in Canada on March 1, 1946?
2.	What was, on that date, the reserve of butter stored in each province of Canada?
3.	What is the present reserve of butter in each province?
4.	Has the government received representations to the effect that it is impossible to obtain butter in some parts of. the country?
5.	If so, what action has the government taken in order to cope with the situation?

Mr. LOCKHART:: 1.	How many (a) automobiles; (b) trucks, were in the possession of the Department of National Defence in Canada on V-J day?
2.	How many (a) .automobiles; (b) trucks, have been declared surplus .and transferred to War Assets Corporation for disposal since V-J day?
3.	How many (a) automobiles; (b) ^ trucks, transferred from the Department of National
Defence to War Assets Corporation for disposal since Y-J day have been disposed of to date ?	,
4.	How many (a) automobiles; (b) trucks, still in possession of the Department of National Defence are in open storage at the *present time?



PRISON REFORM

Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	What clauses of the prison reform commission report have been adopted by the government since the report was tabled?
2.	Who was in charge of federal prisons, is it the Minister of Justice or the Solicitor General, and what is the division of authority be' tween them, if any, herein?
3.	Who appoints those in charge of these institutions, .and the staff, and what qualifications have they in this work before appointment?
4.	What inspection is there of these institutions, and how may visits have been made by the minister in charge?
5.	What practical experience have the chief officers of the department in this work .before appointment? ,
6.	Do grand juries visit these institutions and make a report? If so, to whom?
7.	Under the Act, who compose the board of visitors, other than federal officials and members of the House of Commons?
8.	Will any arrangements be made for members of the House of Commons, representing each province, during the year, to inspect these federal institutions in each of the provinces?
9.	What improvements have been made since the last session of parliament on this whole question, and what new improvements have been introduced?
10.	Have there been any riots in the various institutions?
11.	Are these places inspected to see if they conform to modern rules of public hygiene?
12.	How many soldiers who served in the late war overseas are being confined in each institution, and where?



IMMIGRATION

Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	Under what conditions can immigrants now enter Canada?
2.	How many immigrants have entered Canada from 1938 to 1945 annually (a) from Great Britain and Northern and Southern Ireland; (b) the United States of America; (c) the continent of Europe?
3.	Is any assisted passage now being given to those who come from Great Britain?
4.	Has the government, since the war closed, or shortly before, held any conferences with Britain or the other dominions regarding migration within the empire in the form of assisted passages for members of the forces of Britain or the other dominions who seek to come to Canada?
5.	What change has .been made .after the war in the government's immigration policy, subsequent to privy council order P.C. 3016, dated November 29, 1938; P.C. 2653, dated September 14, 1939, as amended by P.C. 3547, dated May 21, 1941?
Motions jor Papers



MATERIALS AND LABOUR FOR CONSTRUCTION OF THEATRES

Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	W'hat rules and regulations have been laid down by the government regarding building materials and labour for the erection of theatres?
2.	Are theatres given priority over the building of houses at the present time?
3.	Have any complaints been received by the government or officials thereof, from the corporation of the city of Toronto or individuals there, relating to the providing of labour and building materials for the erection of theatres?
4.	What priorities as to building exist now in Toronto?



CLARKE STEAMSHIPS-NORTH SHORE ST. LAWRENCE SERVICES

Frédéric Dorion: During the last fiscal year, what amounts were granted by the various departments to the Clarke Steamship Limited, for each of the services performed by this company on the north shore of the St. Lawrence river?



PRAIRIE FARM ASSISTANCE-WESTERN PROVINCES

Mr. QUELCH:: 1.	How much money was paid to the farmers in each of the 'three western province* under the P.F.A.A. for the three years 1943, 1944, 1945 respectively ?
2.	How much money was collected under the one per cent levy in each province during that period ?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS

[Stage Direction]
K. R. & 0.'-PHYSICAL DISABILITIES-1939
Jean-François Pouliot: For a copy of each amendment to the King's Regulations and Orders for the Canadian militia, 1939, concerning the physical disabilities of the men, showing the date of each one.


Mr. ABBOTT:: Return tabled.



EVIDENCE AT TRIAL OF KURT MEYER

John George Diefenbaker: For a copy of the transcript of the evidence taken by the court on the trial of S.S. General Kurt Meyer.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I do not rise to oppose this motion, but I want to point out to the house that ordinarily court martial proceedings are not producible before parliament. There have been a number of cases in which that question has come, up and the. request has always been refused. I appreciate that this is an exceptional case, in that the person tried was not a Canadian subject, and therefore I am prepared to allow the motion to pass, but on the understanding that this is not a precedent but a special case.
There is one further point. We have only one copy of this evidence here in Canada. It

is very lengthy, covering four* large volumes. The task of copying it would be rather long and expensive, so perhaps my hon. friend and I could arrange for him to take communication of it at some convenient place, so that we may not have to produce in the house the only copy we have. If he insists on the evidence being copied, of course that can be done, but I think we can arrive at some satisfactory arrangement for him to take communication of it.


John George Diefenbaker: So far as the copying is concerned, there is no necessity for that. In regard to the other point raised by the minister, while it is true that according to decisions rendered in the past, court ' martial evidence is not producible in the bouse, I should like to point out that this was not a court martial. This was a body set up as an international court by order in council under the provisions of the War Measures Act.


James Horace King: Carried subject to the
remarks of the minister.



COMMUTATION OF SENTENCE ON KURT MEYER

John George Diefenbaker: For a copy of all letters, papers, memos of telephone conversations and other documents which passed between Lieutenant General Chris Yokes and any officer or officers of the trial, tribunal, and/or any senior staff officers of the Canadian Army, and/or legal officer's of the Department of Justice and the Department of External Affairs, touching on the commutation of the sentence passed on S.S. General Ku.rt Meyer.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I am sorry to have tooppose this motion, on the well-known grounds that communications between junior officers-and senior officers or between departmental officials are privileged, and that it is not in the public interest to produce them in parliament. I have raised the same point on other occasions, as my hon. friend well knows. I shall be pleased to make a statement on this matter at the appropriate time, and to answer any questions. I may say here that there were no communications with any minister of the crown or any government officials in Ottawa relating to this matter. Their advice was neither sought nor given, but I must take the stand that the various documents referred to-letters, papers, memos of telephone conversations and the like if there are any, between General Yokes and the other officers of the tribunal, or -senior staff officers at headquarters in London-are privileged communications and not producible in parliament, such production being not in the public interest.


James Horace King: Dropped.

Motions jor Papers



CANADIAN CORPS OF FIREFIGHTERS

Mr. LENNARD:: For a copy of all correspondence exchanged between the Minister of National War Services and the Minister of National Defence (Army), from January, 1942, to September, 1945, respecting the Canadian corps of firefighters.


James Joseph McCann: I will have to oppose this order on the ground that this is correspondence between ministers and is therefore privileged. I would ask the hon. gentleman if he would be good enough to withdraw it.
Some lion. MEMBERS: Dropped.


James Horace King: Dropped.



VETERANS LAND ACT-OLIVER FARM

Frank Exton Lennard: For a copy of all correspondence, reports and other documents in the possession of the Department of Veterans Affairs, in connection with the enquiry made by Mr. D. M. Brodie, of Windsor, Ontario, regarding the price paid by Veterans Land Administration for the Oliver farm.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I understand from
discussion with the hon. member that he has received the information he seeks.


Frank Exton Lennard: Yes.


James Horace King: Dropped.



ST. SIMEON, QBE., POST OFFICE BUILDING

Frédéric Dorion: For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, reports and other documents, from 1936 to March 15, 1946, in the possession of the Post Office Department and the Department of Public Works, relative to the erection of a post office at St. Simeon, Charlevoix county.



DEPARTMENT OF MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY ACT- ORDERS IN COUNCIL

['I\nrise to support the motion and I am happy to see that it includes various categories. I hope it also includes those people who are suffering from arthritis and rheumatism. There are many crippling and disabling diseases that are painful. While I realize that many persons could benefit from training, I would point out that there are many others who are so incapacitated physically that it is impossible for them to use both hands, or in some other way they are incapable of engaging in any useful trade.\nI hope that when the government institutes such an allowance or pension it will not wait, as in the case of pensions for the blind, until the recipient is forty years of age. It is a great mistake to leave a person to charity or chance until he or she attains that age. A pension for any of the purposes contemplated by this resolution should start where the family allowance leaves off, and we should supplement the allowance with training or some other service which would enable the individual, as far as it is humanly possible, to attain some degree of accomplishment and\nhuman satisfaction. A great many people are handicapped and their lives unduly stunted because we have failed to make any financial provision or to give them training of any kind to develop them. I hope that the government will see fit to include such persons along with the categories set out in the dominion-provincial proposals, under which they propose to take care of certain specific diseases or disabilities. I hope also that any plans which the government has in mind will at once proceed to take care of those people who are part of our society and for whom society must take the responsibility.\nOn motion of Mrs. Strum the debate was adjourned.']
Mr. DESMOND:: For a copy of all orders in council approved since September 6, 1945, under the authority of the .Department of Munitions and Supply Act.


George James McIlraith: I have discussed this motion with the hon. member for Kent (Mr. Desmond) and he has arranged'to examine the index of the orders in council asked for. Until he has an opportunity of doing so I suggest that the motion be permitted to stand.


James Horace King: Stands.



Gordon Knapman Fraser: For a copy of ail] orders in council and regulations passed under the National Housing Act, 1944.	s '


VETERANS' INSURANCE ACT-REGULATIONS
Gordon Knapman Fraser: For a copy of all regulations made by the governor in council under the authority of the Veterans' Insurance Act.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Return tabled.


FARM IMPROVEMENT LOANS ACT-REGULATIONS
Robert James Henderson: For a copy of all regulations made by the governor in council pursuant to the Farm Improvement Loans Act.


PRAIRIE FARM ASSISTANCE ACT-ORDERS IN COUNCIL
Robert James Henderson: For a copy of all orders in council approved since July 1, 1945, under the authority of the Prairie Farm Assistance Act.


FISHERIES PRICES SUPPORT ACT-REGULATIONS
Mr. BROOKS:: For a copy of all regulations' made by the governor in council pursuant to the Fisheries Prices Support Act.


INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT BANK-BY-LAWS
Gordon Knapman Fraser: For a copy of all by-laws of the Industrial Development Bank.


*PRIME MINISTER'S SPECIAL PREROGATIVES
Clayton Earl Desmond: For a copy of all orders in council prescribing the special prerogatives of the Prime Minister.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The motion is for a copy of all orders in council prescribing the special prerogatives of the Prime Minister.
I may say there is nothing unusual about this particular order. It is one that was first adopted by Sir Charles Tupper when he came into office. It has been part of the normal procedure as each new administration came into office to enact similar orders. I hare here the various orders that have been passed. The first by Sir Charles Tupper was passed on May 1, 1896. Then there was one by Sir Wilfrid Laurier on July 13, 1896, one by Sir Robert Borden, on October 10, 1911, and another by Sir Robert Borden when he was head of the Union government. Then there is one by the Right Hon. Arthur Meighen, approved on July 19, 1920, and one by Mr. Bennett, approved on August 7, 1930. Then there is one by myself, approved on October 25, 1935.
I seem to have overlooked passing a similar order between 1921 and 1926. Mr. Meighen also overlooked his opportunity from June to September of 1926. Again I recommended
Peace River-Railway Outlet

no order from 1926 to 1930. I am told that the clerk of the privy council has assumed that where a prime minister has been in office on a previous occasion, and is returned and continues in office, the old order still has force.
The only variation in the orders passed by myself and by my predecessors since the time of Sir Charles Tupper has been that in the original recommendation of Sir Charles the railway committee was included in the list of appointments designated as the prerogative of the Prime Minister in section 4 of the first two orders in council. This committee was deleted for obvious reasons from the list of appointments, under P.C. 2437 of October 10, 1911. and from subsequent orders in council.
Then in the case of the last two orders in council, namely P.C. 1930 of 1930 and P.C. 3374 of 1935, the original wording of section 3 has been slightly altered to read "recommendations affecting the discipline of the department of another minister" instead of "the discipline of another department".
That is the extent of the changes made. I have been told to be sure to inform the house that this list does not include all the prerogatives of the Prime Minister.


Major James William Coldwell: Is the list being tabled?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am tabling all the orders.
Motion .agreed to.


WAR ASSETS-ESTEVAN AIRPORT BUILDINGS AND EQUIPMENT
Mr. McCULLOUGH (Assiniboia):: For a copy of all correspondence, since July 1, 1944. in the possession of War Assets Corporation or any department of the government with reference to the disposition of Estevan airport *[DOT]buildings and equipment.


R.C.A.F. BUILDINGS AT NORTH BATTLEFORD
Mr. CAMPBELL:: For a copy of all correspondence and telegrams exchanged between any department of the. government and the city council of North Battle-ford or any other person or persons, from July 1, 1945, to date, regarding the sale of R^.C.A.E. buildings at North Battleford.


CURRIE MEMORIAL AND SOLDIERS' CONVALESCENT HOSPITAL, MONTREAL
John George Diefenbaker: - For a copy of all correspondence between Mr. David, of Montreal, Quebec, an architect, and any of his employees with the Department or National Defence, and/or the Department of Public Works, and/or the Department of Veterans Affairs, regarding plans for the prospective erection (including the cancellation of such plans, if any) of the Currie Memorial hospital and/or the Soldiers' Convalescent hospital in the city of Montreal.


PEACE RIVER DISTRICT
Mr. WILLIAM IRVINE (Cariboo) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, the government should give immediate consideration to the building of a railway outlet from the Peace River country to the Pacific coast.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I need hardly say that the resolution which I now rise to discuss is not worded as forcefully and as specifically as I should like it to be. But for certain restrictions imposed upon me by the rules of the house I should have the resolution read: "That this parliament endorse the building of the Peace River outlet, forthwith." However, members know full well that private members are not permitted to offer motions which might involve the expenditure of public moneys. I do not see why such motions should not be made by private members. We represent the people who are taxed; we should have some say in how much they are taxed, and how their taxes are to be expended. However, I shall not stop now to discuss amendments to the rules of the house. I merely say in passing that we are compelled by the limitations of the rules to restrict our expressions in matters of this kind. So that the resolution can only ask that the government give consideration to the building of the line, as desired.
I wish to express the hope that hon. members will not talk the resolution out. It is a practice sometimes indulged in. I should like in that connection to say that a long-deferred hope has saddened the hearts of the people in the area which will be directly affected by the proposed railway. I am asking that the house pass the resolution, and thus give them at least some basis for encouragement. But if we cannot see our way clear to pass the resolution, I think it would be better to face it squarely and fairly and vote it down, thereby putting out the ignis fatuus, that dazzling, sparkling, phosphorescent light of political promises which, in the past, has been leading the people toward futility'. It would be better for us to put out forever these tantalizing, false beacon-lights which mark the road to nowhere.
The proposal which I would ask the government to consider, and which I would ask hon. members to authorize the government to consider, is to build a railroad line to connect the Pacific Great Eastern with the Northern Alberta railroad, which would incorporate both lines into the Canadian National railway system, and would connect the two branch lines mentioned.

Peace River-Railway Outlet
The Northern Alberta Railway, runs from Edmonton to Dawson Creek, at which point ft ends in a blind alley. This section of the road is now managed jointly by the two great railway companies in Canada, the Canadian National railway and the Canadian Pacific railway.
My information is that the joint management has not proven very satisfactory. The rolling stock seems to have got into bad repair, while the roadbed itself has been rather badly neglected. It would appear that each of the companies is endeavouring to skim off as much cream as possible, without feeding the cow any hay or chop.
The Pacific Great Eastern section of this line is managed b>^ the government of British Columbia. As hon. members may know, it begins at the town of Squamish, thence running north or north easterly to the town of Quesnel, there meeting with its blind alley. As hon. members will recognize, this road begins at a considerable distance from the main port on the Pacific coast, and ends long before it taps the resources of the northeastern and central territories, toward which its eastern end hopefully points. My suggestion is that the government consider taking over the Pacific Great Eastern and building a line through from. Squamish to Vancouver to join with the Canadian National railway, and that at Quesnel they extend it north to Prince George and then east to connect with the Northern Alberta railway. That would involve the building of about 350 miles of new road.
I believe there has been some talk of inviting private corporations to take over the Pacific Great Eastern and build the road through to the Peace river. I think I am safe in saying that this idea is generally opposed by the people. As late as the early part of last March I had the privilege of meeting the board of trade of the town of Lillooet, and that body passed a resolution to the effect that they would rather have the Pacific Great Eastern remain in the hands of the provincial government and be operated as it is now being operated than have it turned over to a private corporation.
There is a fear among the people of private corporations building railroads because they usually ask for large concessions of the public domain, in the form of either land grants or timber or minerals or power or some other natural resources. The feeling seems to be that the resources which can stimulate a private corporation to build a road, which resources belong to the people themselves, might very well be used by the 'people to build their own railroad so that they may
own it and also control the resources which it will tap. For that reason we believe that the Canadian National Railways should build this line. We feel that the logical and efficient thing to do is to take over both these branch lines and incorporate them in the Canadian National system and then build the line necessary to join the two.
I intend to spend the next few minutes in dealing with the extent of the territory to be served by the proposed line and to indicate something of the natural wealth which might be tapped or exploited thereby. Last year during the debate on the address in reply to the speech from the throne I spent some time in dealing with the resources of the Cariboo and Peace River districts. The building of such a railroad as I am suggesting would be of great benefit, not only to British Columbia but to the nation as a whole. Such an undertaking has far more than local importance; it is indeed of national importance.
In particular, however, this line would serve a vast and rich territory which is now very poorly served with transportation or which has no rail transportation at all. The territories which would be directly affected by the building of a Peace River outlet would be, first, the whole territory known as the riding of the Cariboo. This area is roughly about the size of the United Kingdom. It has, as I shall show subsequently, a great variety of valuable resources.
The next territory which would be directly served is the constituency of Peace River which is represented, as hon. members know, by the leader of the Social Credit party (Mr. Low). He is unavoidably absent to-day from the house, but I believe he intended to support this resolution. That territory also is nearly as large as the United Kingdom. [DOT]
Then there is a third territory which should not be overlooked when the building of a Peace River outlet is being considered. I refer to the Northwest Territories from the boundaries of British, Columbia to the boundaries of Alaska. Such a railroad as I am suggesting would be a gateway to that great territory to the north. I believe hon. members are fairly, well aware of the abundant natural resources within these territories.
On many occasions this resolution, or one similar to it, has been discussed in this parliament. Seldom has it been discussed without the mover having a good deal to say about the extent of the natural wealth of the country concerned. I imagine than hon. members who have not been there have a good idea of how extensive the natural wealth is.
I should like to summarize some of the things I presented to-the house at the last
Peace River-Railway Outlet

session of parliament. First, let me say something about agriculture. The Peace River and the Peace River block, which is that section of the Peace River within the boundaries of British Columbia, as well as other parts of the Cariboo contain a vast extent of the finest agricultural land in the world. I may say that the agricultural production is extensive enough to warrant the building of this railroad and to guarantee sufficient revenue to make it pay. I believe that the late Sir Henry Thornton is on record as promising to build this line when the Peace River district was able to export 10,000,000 bushels of wheat a year. That 10,000,000 bushels is now away above 20,000,000, and it is not mere idle talk to say that the present .production could easily be doubled in the near future were farmers encouraged to the extent of being provided with proper transportation facilities.
Then I want to say a word about ranching in the Cariboo riding. Out in the Chilcotin we have some of the greatest ranching on the North American continent. I believe these ranches have almost reached the limit of their producing capacity unless they can secure supplies of fairly cheap cattle feed, from the prairies. If they can receive such shipments on a reasonable basis they could raise more and better cattle than they are now producing.
As a matter of fact the people of British Columbia require for their own use a great deal of agricultural products which could be supplied from the Peace River and the Peace River block. From 1940 to 1943 British Columbia imported 8100,000,000 worth of farm products. The Peace River could have supplied probably all of what British Columbia required. It is quite possible that a large pSrtion of that 8100,000,000 worth came from the Peace River country, but hon. members may be surprised to learn that before British Columbia can use the products of its own province they have to be exported into another province and then redirected to Vancouver. Some farmers in the Peace River block have to haul their products from 'one hundred to two hundred miles before they reach a railhead, and then they have to ship them four hundred miles to Edmonton, so that such produce travels from eight to twelve hundred miles and still will be no nearer to Vancouver than they were at the point of shipment. The result is that it costs about seventeen cents to ship a bushel of wheat from the Peace River district to Vancouver, whereas if this line were built the wheat could be laid down in Vancouver at eight cents a bushel.
Farmers have to haul their feed grain from far distant points to the railway at Dawson

Creek or to some other point along the line and then send it to Vancouver, where it is transshipped and reloaded an the Pacific Great Eastern and hauled another three hundred to four hundred miles to Williams Lake and then reshipped another hundred and seventy-five miles in to the Chilcotin in order to bring feed to the ranchers in that area, whereas if it were shipped by means of the railway I suggest directly from the Peace River block to the Cariboo, it would be a very short h&ul indeed and a downhill run all the way, and there would be" no difficulty in the ranchers there purchasing what they require to augment their feed supplies..
This Cariboo country is also rich in furs and rich in timber, not only timber which is manufactured into lumber but timbers which may be used for producing newsprint, wall-board and building paper. There are also numerous stands of timber which could very well be used in the plastic industries. We have been given to understand that there are great possibilities in the future for the plastic industry, and there is an abundance of the resources required in such an industry in northern British Columbia.
Next I want to spend a moment or two on the mineral resources. I shall not spend much time on gold because I imagine most people know that there are fine gold mines in the Cariboo riding in full production. Nor shall I spend much time on some of the other minerals which seem to be more attractive from the point of view of moneymaking. I would rather mention the great coal deposit at Hudson Hope. There is nothing on this continent to compare in extent-and quality, with the possible exception of the coal deposit in west Virginia, with that great coal deposit at Hudson Hope. The brochure which was prepared by the government of British Columbia points out that this coal is superior to Pennsylvania coal. Much of this coal could be shipped direct to our ports on the Pacific coast if we had the means of transportation, and it could be used not only in our locomotives but in our shipping and in our furnaces. At the present time British Columbia has to import a good deal of the coal used for these purposes. The development of our coal resources in this area would very probably lead to the establishment of secondary industries, of great value. I was reading a speech made by Mr. J. Corsbie, M.L.A. in the provincial legislature of British Columbia about two weeks ago, in which he gives what I believe to be a conservative estimate of the possibilities of a ton of coal. He says that a ton of coal will yield 800 feet of gas, ten gallons of gasoline,.

Peace River-Railway Outlet
twenty pounds of ammonia sulphate, thirty gallons of crude oil tar, three gallons of creosote oil, one gallon of lubricating oil, ten pounds of grease, and 1,500 pounds of coke; and even that does not exhaust all the possible byproducts of a ton of coal. The British Columbia government informs us that there are three billion tons of coal packed in there in that area near Hudson Hope. The only way you can get it out is by a wheel-barrow.
I also wish to mention in passing the great wealth of hydro-electric power that we have in the ridings of Peace River and Cariboo. The Peace river canyon alone has tremendous possibilities. The government has estimated that sufficient power could be developed in the canyon alone to meet all the light, heat and power needs of a city of one million people, and that is probably more people than we have ip the entire province of British Columbia. Then there is also the Praser river and other rivers which could produce an immense volume of power.
I should also mention that Cariboo riding is a mecca for tourists. There is no more beautiful scenery in the world, and fishing and hunting are superb in the Cariboo.
In the southern end of the riding horticulture is beginning to be developed extensively. They can grow fruit and vegetables in great abundance, but until recently they did not do so because they would grow it only to rot in the fields. Last year, however, a canning industry was established at Lillooet, and it has greatly stimulated the growth of fruit and vegetables.
While I am emphasizing the great national wealth of the territories which would be benefited by a Peace River outlet, I do not desire to base my argument for the building of the road entirely on this ground. I think any forward-looking government and parliament would give careful consideration to these great resources and would be planning the best way to develop them in the interests of the nation as a whole. But even if that were not done I wish to make this point, that the Peace River outlet should be built because of the developments that have already taken place in that area. There is already a sufficient development to warrant the building of the Peace River outlet. It is necessary to enable the farmers in that territory to market their produce direct in the coast ports as well as in the interior. It is necessary for them to have this line in order to facilitate the marketing of fruit from the southern part of British Columbia, in the Peace river and on the prairies. It is necessary equally to have this means of transportation in order that they may be able to supply feed grain
to the ranchers, dairymen and chicken farmers of southern and interior British Columbia. This line which I am suggesting should be built would make the Pacific Great Eastern, the Northern Alberta and the Canadian National from Jasper to Prince Ruipert pay dividends. It would also bring about cheaper transportation for farmers' grain that has to be exported, particularly to the orient, and it would justify the building of the grain elevator at Prince Rupert. My information is that, while that elevator was built at a very considerable cost of public money, it has never been used to any extent, certainly far from being used to its fullest capacity; and it is simply monstrous that the grain which is grown in the Peace River district cannot be directly unloaded in the elevator at Prince Rupert so as to stimulate not only the railway itself but serve the community which grows wheat so extensively in the Peace River country and provide the shipping so badly needed at the city of Prince Rupert.
I desire to urge this undertaking on the government as part of its post-war rehabilitation pragramme. As far as I understand the government's programme as it has been announced by the spokesmen for the administration, the government anticipates that there will be need of extensive public investments in the immediate future; for while the government is apparently committed to entrusting the future of our economy to the gentle and tender care of private enterprise, it does not seem to have a very great deal of confidence in private enterprise; it anticipates that private enterprise will fall down; and if the government does not do something about the matter there will be another depression, perhaps as bad as that which preceded the war. So that the government has told us that when private enterprise has done its best to give full employment and maintain full production the government will undertake to make very considerable public investments with a view to increasing purchasing power and thus stimulate private enterprise to scramble for greater profits and thereby employ the population. That, I believe, is a fair statement of the government's position.
The expenditures which might be made in connection with the Peace River outlet would do much of what the government intends to do in the event of unemployment becoming rampant. I do not know when it is rampant; whether it is rampant when we have 250,000 unemployed, or 300,000 or 450,000 unemployed. So far as I am concerned it has all the ram-pancy that it ought to have now. But such an investment would, as I say, not only stimulate private industry but at the same time leave
'ton
Peace River-Railway Outlet

a consid-_'i;ble asset on the credit side of the exchequer and provide a much needed public service to the people concerned. I believe that such public investment will very soon become necessary; and, frankly, I believe that the only possible hope of the people of the Peace River and the Cariboo securing this line is through the implementing of the government's policy of post-war rehabilitation. For that reason I would like very much to have, in the course of this debate, the assurance, either of the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) himself, or of the Minister of Transport (Mr. Chevrier), who will probably speak for the government on this resolution, or through some spokesman, that the Peace River outlet will have a priority qn the programme of the government in its post-war reconstruction -work.
By way of an example I should like to invite the attention of the government and of the house to what is taking place in Great Britain along similar lines at the present time. In this connection I would mention the case of Middlesborough, which I found referred to in an interesting article in the last issue of the Reader's Digest. There will be found the story of how the government of Middlesborough hired architects, geographers, designers and sociologists to make a complete analysis o'f living conditions within the city borders. To assist them they found ready cooperation on the part of the chamber of commerce, industrialists, housewives, teachers, doctors, trades unions, shop-keepers, and indeed all groups within the community; all were ready to cooperate, and together they fearlessly and realistically analysed the situation of the city. This self-inventory became the basis of a plan to rebuild the entire city of Middlesborough, and to rebuild it in a period of thirty years, taking three definite stages to complete the plan. The city government was and is responsible for carrying out the plan, but the British nation has an interest in Middlesborough, and because of that interest we found present at this analysis four ministers of the national government. They were there to support the local community with the financial resources of the state in carrying out the plans upon which the community itself had decided. There were there the minister of education, the minister of health, the minister of transport, and the minister of town and county planning. They were there to give leadership and advice and to supervise the carrying out of the plan in accordance with national standards. The government of Britain was behind the Middlesborough city plan in order to provide the required financial aid. Thus the authority, the advice and the

funds of the nation entered into. partnership with the initiative and the enterprise of all elements in the community.
In using this case as an example I do not mean to imply that our government is less competent to undertake gr^at and costly projects than the government of Great Britain. This government's record during the war period in its production of war material and supplies is a noble one, and should be sufficient answer to anyone who might have any doubt that the government of this country was less competent than governments in other countries. I for one do not question the government's ability to do the job, but I am questioning its willingness to try. I find that the British government is on the job supporting the plans of each local community, so far as rehabilitation is concerned, by putting behind those plans the financial resources of the nation.
The city of Middlesborough is a comparatively small affair when one thinks of the vast territory and the wealth of which I have spoken, within the Cariboo and the great Peace River country and the Northwest Territories, That area of the Peace River and the Cariboo is about twice the size of the United Kingdom, and I feel safe in saying that the natural resources of the Cariboo and the Peace River is greater than that of the entire British Isles. Surely with such an attractive proposal the government of Canada will not be loath to support the plans that have been made for twenty years by the people of the Peace River and the Cariboo, by advancing the necessary capital to build their means of transportation.
I do not hesitate to say that this district of which I am speaking is rich enough in natural resources to employ gainfully every returned soldier in Canada, if the government were sufficiently interested to give leadership and to finance whatever projects might be required to develop those natural resources. What then is to be the answer of this parliament and of the government to the plea of the people of the Cariboo and of the Peace River, which plea I now bring before this house.
I have just said that in the case of Middlesborough the government representatives were there on the job to stimulate every spark of initiative in the community, to stimulate this free enterprise of which we hear so much. I would point x>ut to the government that there are hundreds of communities in the territory of which I have been speaking who would gladly respond to any appeal which the government might make in this regard, and no one can possibly estimate what can result

Peace River-Railway Outlet
when it is possible to inspire a whole community to exercise its rights and powers of free enterprise, and its initiative.
The people of the Cariboo and of the Peace River decided more than twenty years ago, after a careful analysis of their economic position, what was the first step to be taken in developing their country and making it possible for them to earn a living on the farms of that land, and they came to the government and are still coming with their plea that this step be taken. To-day they are still the forgotten people.
That area was settled verj7 largely on the strength of promises that were made to build this railway, and I think it is only fair to say that the party in power to-day was not the only party that made those promises. Every leader of the major parties of the country is on record, committed to the hilt to build this railroad. I pointed out last year that the Prime Minister himself, speaking in Edmonton in 1924, unequivocally pledged himself to build a road as soon as humanly possible. I do not know what the Prime Minister thinks is humanly possible, but that was a long time ago, and surely it is approximating human possibility by now7.
Other leaders, such as .the Right Hon. Arthur Meighen, Lord Bennett, the present leader of the opposition (Mr. Bracken), and, I believe, the leaders of the other parties in this house, have pledged themselves to support the building of the Peace River outlet. I suggest, therefore, that this house and the government as well have a moral obligation to the people of the Peace River and the Cariboo. I do not know to what extent a moral obligation is going to count in this parliament, but I think it ought to count. I am suggesting that w7e make it count, because it is the obligation of each one of us.
Those people went in there more than a quarter of a century ago on the strength of promises that a railroad would be built to take out their produce and convey it to market. They are still there, isolated within a vast territory filled with immeasurable wealth, and they are knocking on the door to be let out. This government and parliament alone hold the key that can open that door, and that key is transportation which will enable those people to find a market for their produce to the extent that their developments increase settlements, and to develop the natural resources to which I have already referred.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER:: Order. I must remind the hon. member that his tifne has expired.


Mr. H. C. GREEN (Vancouver South):: I am very glad to support this resolution both on my own behalf and on behalf of the Progressive Conservative party. There can be no doubt in the mind of any hon. member w7ho knows the situation that the Peace River district is severely handicapped by lack of a railway outlet to the Pacific coast. Further, as the member for Cariboo (Mr. Irvine) has said, that condition has existed over a period of almost thirty years.
There is no other area in Canada of like size that has been so unfortunate. The situation really is and has been a great tragedy. The people there moved in after the last war, and many of them have held on continuously until this time' in the expectation that there would be a rail outlet to the Pacific coast. Many of the original settlers have died; others have been forced to give up their farms, quite a few have moved down to the Pacific coast. Right through the picture they .have shown great courage and strength of character. Now that the war is over the time has come for this parliament to go to the aid of the people of the Peace River district. They should have a rail outlet to the Pacific coast at Prince Rupert, and also at Vancouver and New Westminster.
Another tragedy has been the failure to develop the country along the Canadian National line from Jasper to Prince Rupert, in the centre of the province of British Columbia. Much of that land is fertile, yet the people there have had to struggle along with inadequate railway service. Just a few weeks ago I believe their service was again reduced. The}7 have had handicap after handicap, and they too deserve some help from this parliament.
I know the government of British Columbia is only too anxious to cooperate in getting an outlet to the Pacific coast. The provincial government has a railroad which runs from Squamish on Howe Sound up to Quesnel. and is prepared to complete it into Prince George where it could connect with a line from the Peace River district. The whole province of British Columbia is behind the plan of opening up the Peace River district to the Pacific coast.
In the summer of 1944 the leader of the opposition (Mr. Bracken) toured that country from Prince Rupert to Prince George, down to Quesnel, and then flew into the Peace River country. As he left the province he made a statement which among other things dealt with this Peace River outlet. He said:
The development of British Columbia's rich north country must be one of our first projects in the post-war era. I have already stated that
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as a means towards that end, the Progressive Conservative party is committed to securing the connection by rail of the Peace River country with the ports of Prince Rupert, Vancouver and New Westminster. This project is essential^ not only to the areas affected and the Pacific ports, but to the future development -and utilization of the great resources of this section of Canada.
You know, Mr. Speaker, I sometimes think we are very much out of date in our attitude toward the building of railways. As a people we were badly bitten twenty odd years ago when we got too much railway mileage for our' population. It is quite true that we got into trouble then and that a great deal of money was lost. Through the war years we found that much of that mileage was very useful, and that the money was not all wasted. But a belief has grown up in Canada that we must be very careful about building any more railways; that it is almost a sin to mention another line of railway which should be built in this far-flung country. That, I think, is dead wrong. In that view we are out of date, far behind the times. The country cannot stand still. Canada is developing all the time; new settlements are growing up, new resources are being found, and they must be served by railways. This Peace River district should have top priority in getting a new railway line. Let us as Canadians change our thinking a bit and be prepared to build railways where they are needed.
In conclusion I should like to leave one other thought with the house. YVe must think of northern Canada. This country cannot attain its destiny unless the northern part of Canada is developed. At the present time nearly all settlement in Canada is within one or two hundred miles of the boundary between the United States and Canada; we have not settled in depth at all. To do that we must go north. Look at what Russia has been able to do in Siberia; yet Canada has dragged behind. We must turn our attention to northern Canada; and I do not think there is any finer place to begin than by constructing this rail outlet from the Peace River district. to the Pacific coast.


Mr. McIVOR:: If I may ask the hon. ihem-ber a question, are there any highways there on which big trucks can transport goods?


Howard Charles Green: At the present time the British Columbia government is completing a highway into the Peace River district from the Prince Rupert line of the Canadian National.


Mr. THOMAS REID (New Westminster):: In rising to speak to the motion now before the house, Mr. Speaker, let me say at the outset that it is not my intention to delay [Mr. Green.J
the house very long. I realize, as was pointed out by the hon. member for Cariboo (Mr. Irvine), that very often over a long period of years the resolutions of private members have been talked out, and I for one would like to see this matter come to a vote to-day. Hence my remarks will be brief.
I am rising to support the motion. I think it was in 1931 that, as a new member of the house, I first listened to similar arguments being presented by the then member; and if my memory serves me aright he was told by the then Minister of Railways that the time was not ripe for the construction of this railway. That argument is used very often when a government -wants to turn down something or someone is against it; they use the stock phrase that this is not the time to put such a proposal into effect. I want to say to hon. members of the house that in many provinces agricultural land is limited, and that is so in British Columbia. It is true that our province covers a large area, but actually the amount of good agricultural land is not as great as the area of the province woyld seem to indicate. I think it can be said without fear of successful contradiction that if at the inception the railways in British Columbia had gone right through that district, rather than down through the Fraser, we would have had a greater population in that province than we have to-day.	.
Just in passing may I offer one word of criticism in regard to the offer of the provincial government to returned men of a million acres of land in that country. I have said before, and I repeat, that if the provincial government would take off the strings and make that land available to all returned men, no matter from what province they come, there would not be any great difficulty in obtaining settlers in that district. This is first-class land; as the hon. member for Vancouver North (Mr. Sinclair) says, there is certainly good land up there. But I think the hon. member for Cariboo overlooked one thing in his argument; and he will realize that as an old member of the house I listened to these arguments advanced year after year before the war. My information is that a great deal of the wheat grown in that part of British Columbia matures a little too late to go out through the lakes, so the only outlet is through the Pacific coast ports. If therefore for no other reason than that, an outlet should be developed to permit the wheat to get out as speedily ns possible.
When one considers the hundreds of millions 6f dollars that have been spent in the east, one sometimes wonders why those of

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us who come from British Columbia, and sometimes those coming from the prairie provinces as well, Have to put up such a terrible fight for what we obtain. We see proposals advanced now to develop the St. Lawrence river, on which hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent; and to do what? To open up an inlet right up to the city of Toronto. Those of us who come from British Columbia should serve notice on the government right now-or on any government-that we in the west had better have a little more consideration before they start spending many more millions of dollars in the central provinces.
I have no desire to delay the passage of this resolution; as I say, it is my hope that it may come to a vote. Let me assure the hon. member for Cariboo and other hon. members that the resolution has my hearty support.


Mr. W. F. KUHL (Jasper-Edson):: Mr. Speaker, as was indicated by the hon. member for Cariboo (Mr. Irvine), my colleague, the hon member for Peace River (Mr. Low), who is the leader of this group, is keenly interested in the resolution. Had he not been unavoidably absent I am sure that on behalf of this group he would have been pleased to support the motion. However, inasmuch as the constituency of Jasper-Edson, which it is my privilege to represent, is the neighbouring constituency of Peace River, my leader has asked me to say a few words on his behalf in support of the resolution.
It has already been intimated, by those who have spoken that for the last twenty-five years at least the Peace River outlet has been promised by the leaders of political parties. It would seem now that, the time has long since come when that promise should be kept
I do not believe it is necessary for me to add to the statistics already presented by the hon. member for Cariboo. What he has put on the record is adequate, and anything I might add would be superfluous. There are however a few general thoughts which have not been expressed, and to which I should like to give utterance.
It seems that in the discussion of matters of this kind we cannot get away from the fundamentals of economics. I noticed that on several occasions, before reaching the conclusion of his address, the hon. member for Cariboo related this resolution to those economic principles in which he contends he believes. I think it appropriate therefore to say a few words in that connection.
I am not sure that I agree altogether with all the reasons offered by the hon. member as
to why the people of the Peace River area should be permitted this outlet. I consider that the purpose of the outlet, which might take the form of a .railway or a highway, is primarily that of serving the people of the community. The Peace River outlet, as indicated, certainly would reduce the cost of shipping goods in and out of the area in question. That being so, surely there can be no reason why the project should not be carried out.
The hon. member for Cariboo stated that if this project, and others in close proximity to it, were undertaken, probably all the unemployed veterans in Canada could be put to work. I share with the hon. member, and with all others of like mind, the desire to see ex-servicemen receive the highest possible income at the earliest possible time. I cannot agree however that the construction of this or any other railroad or highway should be carried on for the express purpose of putting people to work.


William Irvine: I agree with that.


Walter Frederick Kuhl: If we are interested only in
seeing that people are employed, then in the event of the carrying out of this project, rather than using the most modern machinery and equipment for the building of railroads and highways we should see to it that the work is done by the use of picks, shovels and wheelbarrow's. If this w'ere done there would be plenty of work for large numbers of people for a long time to come. So I cannot agree that out purpose in any way should be that of putting people to work on the project; the project should be the purpose, whether it requires a hundred or a thousand men.
I cannot anticipate what reply the minister is going to make to the arguments presented. I trust and hope however that we shall not be confronted with the statement that there are not sufficient funds to carry out this and other public works. I believe we have heard sufficient arguments, both in and out of the house, to establish for all time the fact that if we can finance a war there is no reason why we cannot finance any project for peace. The only argument I would consider as reasonable from the minister would be that at this time, or for a few years in the future, we may have a greater need for materials and manpower than we have for the building of this route. Otherwise I cannot think of any logical reason why the project should not be undertaken immediately. Surely the minister would not be logical and consistent if he were to plead a lack of funds, or that we must have the funds for other purposes.
Turning to what has been said by the hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Reid),
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I can see no reason why there should be any competition between eastern and western Canada with respect to services of one kind or another. Whatever is physically possible in any part of Canada can be made financially possible. There is no reason why the ea,st as well as the west cannot have all the facilities they desire. I trust therefore that the minister will not argue that to accede to the request which has been made would not be financially possible.	'	.
In conclusion I would repeat my opening statement, that we of this group heartily support the resolution.


Mr. J. M. DECHENE (Athabaska):: Mr. Speaker, may I be permitted to raise my voice in support of the .resolution offered by the hon. member for Cariboo (Mr. Irvine).
Strange as it may sound to Your Honour, this is the first occasion I have addressed the house since Your Honour has occupied the position of Speaker. I remember well only a few months ago when you, sir, and I sat in an obscure part of the chamber, trying to listen to the debates which at times reached us only as a faint echo. Since that time you have ascended the throne of the mighty I have not had an opportunity as yet to address you in your dignified position as Speaker of this house. Personally, I have remained within a seat or two of the seat I now occupy, and I believe that is as far as I can hope to get in this house.
I rise because the motion so ably proposed by the hon. member for Cariboo forms part of a programme and plan which I have often advocated in this house. I shall not delay the house to-day in going over that plan. I know how difficult it is lor hon. members from the maritimes and the central provinces to understand fully what we are asking for. This is a vast country extending as it does from the forty-ninth parallel to the Arctic ocean.
I was pleaSfed that the hon. member referred to the northwest in asking support for his motion. Athabaska is the gateway to this great north country. The building of an outlet to the Pacific ocean would prove a tremendous boon to the Peace River country and also to the northern parts of the western provinces. Not only would it prove a boon for the farmers in shipping their cattle, grain and dairy products, it would also be a great boon to our fishing industry and would help to bring about the further development of the oil and tar sands resources in the northern part of Athabaska and in the Northwest Territories.
Reference has been made to the Peace river. How pleasing it is to hear the word "peace" used in this house. How pleasing it

is that hon. members are able to talk about peace instead of having almost all their time taken up with rumours of dissatisfaction, of riots, of rebellions, and all the signs of war that are appearing throughout this yet so sickly world. Those of us who know the great value of the Peace River district sometimes regret that it would be so easy to bring the instruments of war into that country. No Canadian has really enjoyed the feelings of peace, contentment and good will until he has stood on the shores of our great northern rivers, the Athabaska or the Peace, and communed with nature1 and thanked Providence for having so generously given of his greatness to this great north land.
The other day I read an extremely interesting article in the Saturday Evening Post by a United States engineer with the army of occupation. He told how Germany was cut off from sources of oil and gasoline, how she could get only a smattering of supplies from Roumania. But he described how, despite the bombardment by the allies, she continued to manufacture high-octane gasoline, superior to anything that we had, from coal. On reading that article I was reminded of the great coal resources of the west.
The hon. member referred to the tremendous area of coal in the Fort St. John area, but he could not speak too strongly of the possibilities of development there. That is only one small part of the vast coal resources of western Canada. Our resources of gas and oil are not increasing greatly and the day may not be too far distant when they will be greatly diminished. As I said once when I was trying to get the government to take action in the development of the tar sands in northern Alberta, the possession of oil is necessary if any nation is to be strong in -war or in peace.
Oil was responsible for the breaking down of many of the negotiations after the last' war. It was also responsible for the failure of many of the peace conferences after the last war. I need not repeat that to-day it is responsible for the disagreement in the UNO meeting now being held in the United States. Because of these vast resources known to be still available we do not need to worry. We know what has been done in Germany and we know that we have billions and billions of tons of coal available in western Canada. If we can properly develop our natural resources by carrying out the necessary research work Canada will stand in front of every nation in the world for having provided the necessary work for her people.
'Every time you settle one thousand new settlers in western Canada on land such as

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is yet available in British Columbia and in northern Saskatchewan and Alberta you ensure employment for ten thousand men and women in the factories of eastern and central Canada. There is no doubt about that. Just the other day I heard someone on the streets of Ottawa say that the west wants everything. All we want is to do our share in looking after the welfare of the workers of this country. We want to do our share in the reconstruction work that will be necessary. We want to contribute to the employment of men and women in the factories of eastern and central Canada.
These gaps in the line must be filled in, and I intend to refer to this matter in a later debate in this house. I hold in my band a brief which I am proud to say was prepared by my son who was recently discharged from the army but who is now practising law in Alberta. This brief is presented on behalf of the people from St. Walburg in Saskatchewan to my own town of Bonnyville. If this route is completed new highway transportation will be provided for the northern parts of the western provinces. I do not want to keep the house too long, but I should like to show hon. members something of the possibilities.
In 1923 when I was a member of the Alberta provincial house I called upon the man who is now president of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company. At that time he wias a vice-president stationed in Winnipeg. I was fortunate to get an immediate audience and he gave me an immediate and clear an<^ straight answer to a question I asked. I asked. "Are you interested in the construction of branch lines and railroads in northeastern Alberta and northwestern Saskatchewan?" He said, "No, we are not. We had plans and surveys made in the past but we have abandoned them. We consider that that country is now part of the Canadian National railway territory and that it is up to them to develop it." May I claim credit for having told the gentleman then that he was making a mistake, that I, for one, was convinced of the tremendous possibilities of that north country where crops can be produced every year and which does not depend on one type of production alone, but where we have a diversity of resources and of production. Inside of five years the Canadian Pacific Railway Company came to this house and asked for a charter renewal ot for a new charter to build lines in the northern part of the western provinces.
A few years later, in 1929 or 1930, I read in Hansard recently that the Canadian Pacific Railway Company had joined with the Canadian National Railways in the purchase of the Northern Alberta railway, then known as the Edmonton, Dunvegan and British Columbia railway and the Alberta Great Waterways. They purchased these roads and they are to-day part of the Northern Alberta railway. So that we now have these two great railways joint owners of hundreds of miles of line in that territory. The Canadian Pacific Railway Company has obtained running rights from near Meadow Lake on the Canadian National Railways on which construction began in 1929 at Loon Lake in Saskatchewan, a line which I am asking them to complete now that the war is over. The Canadian Pacific Railway Company has running rights for fifty-five miles over the Canadian National railway, from a point at or near Loon Lake in the constituency of Athabaska to Cold Lake. The Canadian Pacific survey extends in an easterly direction and somewhat to the north running right through the riding of Athabaska and joining there with the Northern Alberta railway at Lac La Biche, and with the Edmonton, Dunvegan and British Columbia railway somewhere in the vicinity of Lesser Slave lake, forming a great new highway of communication in the northern part of the province, indicating not only the advisability but the necessity of building this western outlet which we are advocating to-day in this house.
I have been pleased with the tone of this debate, and I wish to congratulate the hon. member for Cariboo (Mr. Irvine) upon the able maimer in which hfe has presented his argument in favour of the building of this outlet. I have spent the best years of my life, if I may speak humbly about myself, in the service of my country, and now that I am getting old I hope that God will lend to me enough years of life to enable me to see the completion of this great project and to hear the engines whistling their way clear all the way from Winnipeg and Saskatoon, or Hudson bay, because we have the choice of routes, right through to Prince Albert, through my country and through the Peace River country, that wonderful, beautiful country, and then on into the province of British Columbia to the sea.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Mr. Speaker, I am anxious to say how much I appreciated the speech of the hon. .member for Athabaska (Mr. Dechene;. I was interested in his dealing with Peace, that wonderful river and that wonderful aim. But it seems that the word "Peace" is best described by Charlie McCarthy who four Sundays ago said that peace was now raging all over the world I think that is the kind of peace we now have.
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I was also glad that my hon. friend had discovered a lot of oil up in that country. If he has, he is the only one who knows anything about it, and I think he must have kept silent about it because the large oil companies, which are so often accused of saying that there is tremendous exploration going on there, do not yet seem to have discovered oil, although I hope that they will ultimately discover very large deposits there. The government of British Columbia, of course, must wake up. They are going to develop these resources on their own but they do not care to spend any money in doing so, and so their oil. I think, will remain where nature put it, in that great storehouse below, if it is down there at all.
I rise for one purpose and it is this, to say that we in Alberta of the political persuasion of which I am, are most heartily in favour of this resolution. We are not newly converted to it by any means. I attended a convention in Alberta in January of this year; we there affirmed a resolution that we had passed at the convention the year before, and it was right along this line.
May I also say something with respect to what was said by the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green). I know, Mr. Speaker, that one cannot refer to what has been said in a previous debate, but' I have received from some organization in the maritime provinces literature dealing with what they call the maritime railway question. All that this resolution asks is that this government give consideration to the building of this railway. Why should we not in this parliament adopt a new outlook; in short, do our duty in the maritimes, do it in the northern part of Alberta, in Saskatchewan and in British Columbia, and so help to make this the Dominion of Canada rather than the section-alized business that it seems to be at the present time


Mr. C. C. I. MERRITT (Vancouver-Burrard):: Mr. Speaker, I rise also to support this resolution. I think it might be pointed out that although all the members who have spoken in favour of it come from ,the west, we all speak as Canadians and not as westerners, -and the reason we speak as we do is because we know naturally better than the people in the eastern part of Canada what are our problems.
I have just three points and they are very short. First, it seems to me perfectly obvious, from what we have heard already in the telling arguments that have been advanced, that the non-completion of this railway outlet is a matter of expense alone. That is the only reason in the world why it has not been done. I was particularly interested in the .only part
[Mr. Smith (Calgary West).}
of the remarks, of the mover of the resolution (Mr. Irvine), with which I disagreed. He took some time to explain the great preference of the people of British Columbia for a government-owned railway over one owned by private enterprise. So far as I am concerned I do not care who builds the railway just so long as it is built. I think it is very likely that the people of that area feel as I do about it. But that question hardly arises. I do not believe there is any private enterprise that is particularly anxious to build that road now. They would not want to spend a large sum of money in the construction of a road which would not be a profitable operation at the present time.
If the government should consider that the expense of this construction is an insuperable obstacle, I wish "to point out that this is not an isolated demand on the part of British Columbia and Alberta members for the building of an uneconomical railwa)' purely for their sectional interests. I suggest to the responsible ministers that this is, rather, one part and perhaps one small part of a very great programme of public development, and particularly of development of communications, which we can embark on now that we have secured peace. We can make these developments into profitable operations either for private enterprise or for the government- if only we are prepared to face the obvious facts and link such developments, this one and many others over Canada, with a programme of large-scale immigration into this country. If we have the additional people who will settle in such an area, all questions of whether or not the expense is at present too great, or whether the traffic or the people in the Peace River could support a railway, disappear, just as they disappeared in the early days of railway building and colonization.
I should like to refer, too, to what the hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Reid) said about the provincial government of British Columbia having set aside a million acres for soldier settlement and having -put a string on it that the settlers must be British Columbia returned men. I agree with the hon. member that that string should be removed, but I would still be fearful that veterans would not take up those million acres in any great numbers unless they were sure that a very large additional number of people were going into the area. I have not yet been there; I am going. I am told it is very fine indeed, that the yield of the crops is very great. But according to a professor at the university of British Columbia there are many people in that general area who have not a cash income of more than $400 a year.

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When one takes into consideration the enormous demand for foodstuffs, and the tremendous wealth and great productivity of the country, that condition can only arise because of the lack of proper transportation facilities. I am very sure that, whereas returned veterans are now. going on to the . land in and around Vancouver and other cities, were they assured of a proper outlet for their commodities this great area of which we are speaking would be quickly filled up.
My final point, Mr. Speaker, is this. AH great cities start as distributing centres for the produce of the countryside. Then they increase, and so long as they have veins and arteries reaching out into the hinterland they thrive and prosper. But so soon as the development of the great natural resources of the hinterland of our country ceases, those cities will fail to increase, and if they fail to increase they will probably diminish in size and cease to prosper. Nothing can stand still; it must go ahead or it must go back. Here is one of the missing arteries into the great oort and city of Vancouver.
I suggest, that Toronto started as a centre of agricultural marketing and as the years went by it developed, burst into a great industrial city and contemporaneously into the greatest mining centre in North America. That city is growing now. and depends for its prosperity upon the rich mining areas of the north which arc being opened up, and upon western Canada itself. Likewise we have Winnipeg, which again is a great city, but which has not achieved the same position of diversification as has Toronto. Winnipeg, I think, may be described without offence to anyone as a grain city. That is its lifeblood; that is why it exists. In Vancouver we have a similar situation. Vancouver is a great port, but at the present moment it is chiefly dependent for its existence and expansion on the logging industry. It is a great lumber city, but if it is to reach the stage of diversification which has been attained by the older and larger cities of Canada, it, too, must have the same opportunity for outlets as have those other cities. In the past years of war there has been a great influx of people into Vancouver. At least 60,000 of the 90,000 who came to British Columbia during the war years came to that city. We must now not only be a logging city and a port but develop a secondary industry and must become an industrial centre and a mining centre as well. We cannot do that unless our hinterland is developed. That one should have to go 1,500 miles around by Edmonton to get into the Peace River country is most ridiculous, and one which will not improve the balance of
population in British Columbia. If that balance is not improved the progress of Canada itself will be held back.
That is all I have to say, Mr. Speaker. For the reasons I have given I consider that this project can and should be undertaken, in the interest not only of the west but of the whole of Canada.


Major James William Coldwell: If I may say a word in support of this resolution, I do not think this debate should be confined wholly to hon. members who come from British Columbia and from Alberta, because it is a matter of national concern. After all, when one considers that the province of Alberta and this part of British Columbia which has been particularly described this afternoon contain, I believe, the very richest part of Canada, with probably the most sparse population, a country which has a hinterland of this description with a sparse population cannot be expected indefinitely to be able to hold such a country selfishly for its own ends. I believe the time has come when we should have a comprehensive national programme to develop the whole of the Canadian north country.
The hon. member for Cariboo (Mr. Irvine), who introduced this resolution this afternoon, is not supporting this proposal for the first time. I remember how the former member for Peace River (Mr. Kennedy), who was a member of the old LT.F.A. group of which my hon. friend was also a member, used periodically to introduce a resolution here regarding a Peace River outlet.
I am very glad to rise, not only on behalf of myself but on behalf of those associated with me in this party, to support this resolution. In doing so. I submit this to the house. Transportation, after all, ought not to be considered wholly as a matter of profit and loss. We do not consider highways in that light, and if we want to develop the country we must have transportation that is fast and that will carry the heavy loads which are necessary to maintain production in an area such as the Peace River and the Cariboo. My mind goes back to a period before the war, and I hope that we also learned a lesson during the war, when there were people in the house and across the country who were constantly urging that certain railway lines be pulled up, that certain branches be discontinued, and that even th*, railways connecting east and west might be served over one line of steel.
All .of us during tlhe war realized how valuable those rails were to the country. Sometimes I think the Canadian Pacfiic Railway Company would probably be glad indeed if
Peace River-Railway Outlet

the double track which was removed between White River and another point on that railway, the name of which I have forgotten, had been left instead of being pulled up at th'e behest of those who were opposed to continuing two transcontinental lines. I am glad to hear my kon. friends to the right, the Progressive Conservative party, supporting expanding railway transportation in this country. That should make it pretty well unanimous in this house. In view of the need for the railway, the desirability of opening up the vast territory, the very rich country of northern Alberta and of the Cariboo area of British Columbia, and of the entire Peace River block, I hope that the resolution will receive the support of the house. More than that, I hope that the government will pay attention to the resolution and carry out the wishes of parliament and ensure the building of this badly needed outlet to the sea without unnecessary delay.
If, as has been already said, they consider it a matter of profit and loss immediately, it may be some years before the project is undertaken; but, after all, when we consider the history of western Canada and the building of the Canadian Pacific railway, we remember that there were people who predicted that it would pot pay for the axle grease when it went through uninhabited country. We realize what the building of that road meant to the prairie country. I believe the logical railway, because of the location of its main and Prince Rupert lines, and in view of the arguments advanced by the hon. member for Cariboo, is the Canadian National. But let us bear in mind, when we discuss the building of new roads by the Canadian National Railways, that if we are to impose upon the Canadian National Railways the building of a road which may not be immediately profitable, then this House of Commons should remember that fact in future days when the balance sheets of that railway system are placed before parliament. We should not impose upon the Canadian National Railways an obligation and then criticize it because it cannot make the venture pay. This parliament was too prone to do that in pre-war days. Before I sit down may I say once more that I hope the resolution will receive the hearty support of the house.


Mr. E. D. FULTON (Kamloops):: Mr. Speaker, normally at this late time one would be justified in asking the permission of the

house to call it six o'clock, but in view of the expressed desire to have the debate conclude and the vote taken I propose to carry on for the few minutes that remain before we rise, and I would ask the indulgence of the house to continue at eight o'clock if I have not concluded.
The reason I rise to support the resolution1 is my belief that I can add, in the few brief minutes at my disposal, one or two arguments to those adduced by the hon. member for Cariboo (Mr. Irvine). With due respect,
I hope that the minister will give consideration to those arguments and let the house have a reasoned statement as to whether or not he proposes to carry out the spirit of the resolution and, if not, why not.
It is not necessary for me to add anything to what the hon. member for Cariboo said with reference to the resources of that great country which would be served by the railway that he is advocating. Their main resources are grain, millions of bushels potentially, and coal, millions of tons, as he has pointed out.
I need hardly add that grain, certainly wheat especially, is one of the main requirements of the world at this time and it is very probable that coal will rank closely behind grain.
These resources are not developed to their full extent because there are no adequate outlets for that area. Without adequate outlets resources cannot find their way to the market, and without adequate transportation facilities people will not go in. There is no free access in or out of the area. Before one can expect any country to develop it is certainly necessary to provide it with a proper transportation system and a proper outlet. After all, that is the whole history of Canada. Canada itself did not develop until someone took his courage in his hands and constructed a railway over what was virtual waste.	.
Following the construction of the Canadian Pacific railway, Canada along the southern border underwent a great and remarkable expansion. Following the construction of the Canadian National, or what is now the Canadian National, we witnessed an almost equally remarkable expansion in the north central part of the dominion. It is only reasonable, therefore, to assume that the same expansion would follow were we now to build this railway into the further northern part of the two provinces of Alberta and British Columbia.
At six o'clock the house took recess.

Resignation oj H. A. Bruce
After Recess
The house resumed at eight o'clock. VACANCY


RESIGNATION OF MEMBER FOR THE ELECTORAL DISTRICT OF PARKDALE
James Horace King: I have the honour to
inform the house that I have received the following letter:
150 Balmoral Avenue,
Toronto, Ontario.
March 30, 1946.
To the Speaker of the House of Commons, Ottawa, Canada.
Honourable .Sir:
I, Herbert Alexander Bruce, member of the House of Commons for Parkdale, declare my intention to resign my seat as such member, and hereby resign my said seat.
Dated at Toronto this 30th day of March, 1946.
Herbert A. Bruce.
Witness:
Olive E. Donnelly
Betty L. Stewart
I shall issue my warrant to-morrow for a new writ for an election in the electoral district of Parkdale.


Mr. JOHN BRACKEN (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member
for Parkdale, whose letter you have just read, wrote me also and asked if I would be good enough to read his letter to his associates in the House of Commons. With your permission and with the indulgence of the house I trust I may be permitted to do so now. It is as follows:
John Bracken, Esq., M.P.,
Leader of the Opposition,
House of Commons, Ottawa.
Dear Mr. Bracken,
It will not be a surprise to you that by concurrent mail I am tendering my resignation to the Speaker, for you knew of my determination not to be a candidate in the last election until I yielded to your urgent request and that of my executive committee. Having accomplished what was requested of me under the special circumstances existing at that time, I think it is now clear for the very same reason that I should not continue longer to sit in the House of Commons.
May I recall that I only consented to be a candidate in 1940 when it was impressed upon me that this .provided an opportunity to render actual war service .because of the ahsence of so many of our younger men in the armed forces. The war was still continuing at the time of the general election last year and the same arguments were presented. Now. however, the situation .has changed because the war has not only ended but we are nearing the completion of demobilization and the reason which impelled me to contest the last two elections and to occupy my seat in the House of Commons no longer remains. I -am therefore happy to step aside and give place to some younger -man, preferably a veteran, whose experience during
the "war will give him special qualifications for further service to his country in the difficult years of peace which lie ahead.	_
May I assure you that I have found parliamentary life and its diversified concerns with matters of outstanding importance to national and international well-being, both satisfying and on occasions exciting. I am grateful for the widened horizons it has offered to me and for the many new friendships it has -brought on all sides of the house.
With warmest regards to you and every member of our party in the -house and all good wishes for your future success.
I am,
Yours faithfully,
Herbert A. Bruce.
I do not know what the usual procedure is on an occasion like this, but perhaps the house would permit me to say a brief word of comment with respect to a matter which comes very close to me personally. I have known Doctor Bruce for three years, have worked with him intimately for over a ye'ar, and have always found him to be a loyal associate, a courageous public servant, a man- who took his duties seriously and one who represented his constituency as faithfully as he knew how. As he resigns his place among us I wish to add that he will take away with him the best wishes, certainly of all his associates in this party and, I think I can say on an occasion like this, the best wishes of all members in all parties in the house. I am happy to have this opportunity of paying a word of tribute to a man who was not young when he came here, but who early in the war entered parliament out of a sense of public duty when large numbers of younger men were required for service in the armed forces.
Hon. IAN A. MACKENZIE (Minister of Veterans Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I should like to join with the leader of the opposition (Mr. Bracken) in wishing the Hon. Doctor Bruce, who, I regret to learn, has left this company of statesmen, a very happy and prosperous future. He had a distinguished career; he was a most distinguished physician and surgeon. He served with great dignity in representing His Majesty as lieutenant governor of the province of Ontario. He paid most assiduous attention to his duties in this house, and made valuable contributions to our discussions and debates. So from the opposite side of this aisle I would join, with the leader of His Majesty's Loyal Opposition in wishing happy years to our friend Doctor Bruce.


Mr. ANGUS MacINNIS (Vancouver East):: Mr. Speaker, though on the same side of the aisle but further away we also would like to associate ourselves with the leader of the house in regretting the resignation of Doctor Bruce from the House of Commons. I knew
Peace River-Railway Outlet

of Doctor Bruce by repute for many years before he came here. I was aware of his great interest in matters of public concern in. his own province. I had an opportunity of becoming better acquainted with him here, and I am sure we of this group will associate ourselves with the leader of the opposition (Mr. Bracken) and those on the government side in wishing him a long and happy life, in whatever he may undertake.


Mr. ROBERT FAIR (Battle River):: Mr. Speaker, from this corner of the house we wish to join with other hon. members who have already spoken in wishing Doctor Bruce a happy retirement from the house. I have been able to count him among my friends, and the hon. members in this corner have appreciated his contribution to the public life of Canada.	_


PEACE RIVER DISTRICT
[Stage Direction]
The house resumed consideration of the motion of Mr. Irvine:
That, in the opinion of this house, the government should give immediate consideration to the building of a railway outlet from the Peace River country to the Pacific coast.
Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, when the
house rose at six o'clock I had just completed dealing in a general way with some of the resources of the area we are discussing, namely the Peace River area, and the desirability of developing these resources. I shall endeavour to conclude my remarks certainly within ten minutes and, if possible, within five, to leave the floor for discussion on the part of those other hon. members who wish to add their weight to what has been said.
Something has been said about driving spikes on the railway. I regret that my spike cannot be more in the nature of a golden spike. Possibly the minister will drive what we might call the golden spike in this rail- . road. Mine, however, will be a more workmanlike spike because, from now on, for the next few minutes, I intend to address myself to a few facts which I believe will give some practical support to the resolution. When I refer to my spike being more workmanlike, I must explain that it will be more workmanlike in appearance only. It may be that the minister's spike which would forge the last link would be the golden spike, and of great value.
The area in question has been described. We have heard about its resources, and we have also had some description of the present service afforded that area. Hon. members will recall that practically the only rail communication is from one side of the Peace

river via the Northern Alberta railways to Edmonton. Then we have the main line of the Canadian National Railways, the shortest route to the sea, being a line direct from Edmonton to Prince Rupert, and another line from Edmonton to Vancouver.
As hon. members will recall, it means an extra haul of from 1,000 to 1,500 miles to get to the water, because it has to go first to the east, to Edmonton, and then come back the same distance west. That line of the Canadian National Railways to Prince Rupert goes through Prince George, which is in the constituency of Cariboo, the constituency from which the hon. member who has offered the resolution comes.
Some seventy-five miles south of Prince George is the town of Quesnel, which is the northern terminal of the Pacific Great Eastern railway. That railway runs from Quesnel southwesterly to Squamish on the coast north of Vancouver. So that we have a gap of approximately seventy miles between Prince George and Quesnel. That gap, it should be noted, was at one time graded. There has been a right of way put through there, but the rails were never laid.
If, then, we can get a railway from Quesnel to Prince George there would be a junction with the Canadian National Railways line to Prince Rupert. Thus we have the line from Edmonton to Squamish, which is practically from Edmonton direct to Vancouver, serving not only the Peace River, but also that other area of north central British Columbia, which at present has hardly any outlet, namely the Pripce George-Quesnel district.
It is further significant to note that as the line runs down from Quesnel to Squamish, at one point on its length, in the vicinity of Pavilion and Clinton, there is a gap of only some forty miles between it and the main line of the Canadian National Railways to Vancouver. So that if we were to build a railway first from Prince George to the Peace River, that would be the first requisite. The hon. member for Cariboo has emphasized the importance of that, and I feel I need say no more on the subject. Then we have only a seventy-five mile gap from Quesnel to Prince George, and a forty mile gap from Pavilion or Clinton to Lytton, or the main line of the Canadian National Railways in the vicinity of Ashcroft or Savona. We have a complete hook-up giving direct access from the port of Vancouver to the very heart of the Peace River district.
Briefly, the advantages of such a set-up would be, first, that the Peace River would have- its outlet to the great port of Vancouver.

Peace River-Railway Outlet
An outlet would then exist for grain which, as the hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Reid) has remarked, cannot find its way-out through the lakes, because of the late maturity of the grain in that district. Therefore it must find its way through a Pacific port. It has that direct outlet.
In addition, grain from the Peace River country would have ready access to the rest of the interior of British Columbia, particularly the Cariboo and Kamloops ranching district which, at the present time, has to import its feed grain for winter purposes. Some of that comes from the Peace River, and it must go east to Edmonton, and then all the way back, covering that extra thousand miles.
So that we would have a two-fold advantage in the outlet. First, there is the outlet to the port, and, second, the outlet to feed the ranch animals of the interior of British Columbia. In addition to that, you would have a road crossing the main line of the Canadian National Railways and Canadian Pacific railway in the vicinity of Ashcroft and Savona -that is the east and west line-you would have the north-south line from the Okanagan, and from the interior part of Washington and Oregon, up through Kamloops and along the main line to Savona, joined by the new construction to the Pacific Great Eastern, and so right up to the Peace River.
So that you have there, with those two short branches only needed to be constructed, a whole new network of communication serving the lower part of central British Columbia and Alberta, and serving the northern part of Alberta and British Columbia in the Peace River.
So much for specific benefits which would accrue from the adoption by the house and government of the policy outlined in the resolution. I have suggested the Canadian National Railways, not because I believe this matter should be decided on a basis of public ownership as against private ownership, but simply because that railway happens to be there already. It has a line running through Prince George. Then on the north side of the river running down to Vancouver, the first line you would strike would be the Canadian National. Therefore it seems logical to use it.
I suggest that this be done now, because T understand that surveys have been made. It is said that the surveys show that the line would not be profitable in the immediate future. Nevertheless, as I have said, history has shown that the construction of railways in this country has always preceded development.
There is in existence, I believe, a report of a recent survey conducted as to the future of 63260-29
the Pacific Great Eastern Railway system. The dominion government was represented on that survey. I have not seen the report. It may be that there are arguments in it which could be used to refute the present suggestion. Nevertheless I take the risk of advocating this policy now, although I have not read the report. I do that because if we have faith in the country we must be willing to take a certain amount of risk to build railways which inevitably must lead to a development of a vast and hitherto undeveloped part of the country. No doubt hon. members can think of many dangers and obstacles which would be encountered if this construction were undertaken. But I think I am safe in arriving at this conclusion: that there have been dangers and obstacles in the way of every development which has been carried on in this country and perhaps no more so than in connection with the Canadian Pacific railway. We admit that there are obstacles and dangers, but we say that our resource, our industry and our courage should be no less than those of the fathers of confederation who united this country by means of a great railway system.


Alexander Maxwell (Max) Campbell: Mr. Speaker, the first point I wish to make is that of need. Does this country or this district need this railway? I think that has been amply proved by those speakers who have already spoken in favour of this resolution. I wish to draw the attention of the house to the fact that as far back as 1910 settlers went into this area. In 1918 the government of the day put out a lot of propaganda to coax people to go into the district, and a lot of people did go. in. Promises were made to these people by different governments in the past and by different members of government. I think it is high time something was done to fufil the promises that were made to these people.
There are certain principles involved. The history of our railways is not something that many of us are very proud of. As I said, promises have been made by members of different [DOT] governments and by different governments. Railways have been started and left half finished. Sometimes they were started at one end and sometimes they were started at two ends. As one hon. member said last session, sometimes they are started in the middle and do not get anywhere at either end. Last year we had a debate urging the completion of the gap remaining in our railway system. The promises which were made to these people should be carried out.



Peace River-Railway Outlet
As to its being a good business proposition, it has been amply shown that there is an empire in this territory. A few years ago I met a number of people who had prospected through it and they told me that they had found a mine that was practically solid copper. The only way they could get any of that copper to the railroad was by making sleighs which were pulled down the mountainside by hand, after which the ore was loaded on pack horses and packed twenty miles to the railroad. That sort of development is too slow; it is too much out of date.
Someone mentioned during the course of the debate that opportunity fehould be provided for young people with initiative, that people with the pioneering spirit should be given every advantage that would be derived from living in this particular area. I am . satisfied that if the railroad were put through a great many young people with pioneering spirit, a great many returned men who are looking for an opportunity to establish themselves, would find opportunity there.
It is quite possible that there may be an economic recession in the near future. We have found in. the past that when there is government expenditure on the opening up of a new empire or a new territory an opportunity is given to those who have stored up capital to put that capital into circulation and thus stave off a possible recession.
I see the minister has been in his seat all during this debate and I see also that he has a file on his desk. I am hoping that before eleven o'clock he will give us some inkling of what the government is thinking about in this connection, and so I shall not take up any more time.
. Mr. J. R. MacNICOL (Davenport):	Mr. Speaker, I have received a number of communications from Peace River, Grimshaw, Berwyn and other towns on the north side of the Peace river. On a former occasion when a similar matter was before the house I received communications from Grande Prairie, Dawson Creek and other towns on the south side of the river. Therefore I feel compelled to say a few words, but I shall be brief.
I have traversed both sides of the river, east and west and north and south. This is one part of Canada that has been-I was going to say shamefully, but that is not the right word,-not very satisfactorily treated by the railroads. I am not blaming the railroads. I have in mind one of the pioneers of the area, a man who went in by wagon from Edmonton to the town of Peace River. I imagine he has been there for about forty or more years, perhaps as many as fifty years, and all that time

he has been advocating the building and later the extension of the railways running into that part of the country. I refer to Page Rideout who has perhaps done more to obtain a Pacific outlet than anyone else that I know of. At much personal expense he has travelled all over the area and has delivered addresses in practically all the towns in British Columbia and Alberta that have been mentioned in the course of this debate. I think of other prominent business men who have been associated with him, such as Mr. Henry Jerry, Mr. J. D. Levesque, Mr. Pierre Gauvreau, Mr. J. B. Early and others. All of them were pioneers. They, along with the boards of trade of their respective towns, have been ardent advocates of the extension of these railways.
When I commenced my remarks I said that I did not think this area had been treated very satisfactorily by the railways. For instance, the railway running north from the fine city of Edmonton, after travelling perhaps four hundred miles, reaches McLennan, where there is a junction or fork. One line of railroad then runs north to Peace River. That is a real town, and in my opinion some day it will be a city. It is a splendid town, with fine prospects. The railway crosses the river there over a big steel bridge and runs along the north side of the river, finally ending at what is called Hines Creek, and there it ends, as one might say, up in the air. It is a splendid territory as far as Fort St. John and beyond that for one hundred miles in every direction. The whole area, as one hon. member has said has been denied adequate transportation ever since the pioneers went in there. I was talking to one pioneer in the town of Grimshaw, and he told me that he had gone in to Notikewin, north of Grimshaw thirty-seven years ago and that at that time the map he looked at when he was choosing his lot showed a railway running up to that part of the country. It is too bad what those pioneers have had to endure in transporting their grain and other products to market. The railway should have gone west as far as Fort St. John or beyond on the north side of the river years and years ago.
Turning to the south side of the river you see something. Your Honour, that is almost incredible so far as railways are concerned. The railway runs west from McLennan junction to Spirit River, and there it originally ended up in the air, so to speak. If you go there now on the train, the train takes you as far as Spirit River, and then it backs east a mile or more to Rycroft, where it turns directly south and runs well on to a hundred miles to the fine

Peace River-Railway Outlet
town of Grande Prairie, which some day will be a city. At Grande Prairie it turns and runs to the northwest, ending at Dawson Creek. I never saw such a jumble of railways in my life. They do not seem to go anywhere but run all over the lot. From Spirit River to Pouce Coupe a route was constructed many years ago but the rails were never laid.
The whole area should be given an outlet to the sea. I am not going to enter into a discussion as to where the outlet should be. Some have mentioned Prince Rupert and others, Vancouver. They are both splendid outlets.


An hon. MEMBER :: What about Squamish?


John Ritchie MacNicol: I said an outlet to the sea. We have enough of these inland outlets already. I think my hon. friend, the member for Kamloops (Mr. Fulton) described the situation very well. I was not referring in any derogatory way to the town my hon. friend who interrupted mentioned, but I like to see a railway run to a destination where it will connect up with some other line, and I hope that at another session some of the British Columbia members will bring in a resolution to project these railways in British Columbia on northward. I often wonder why a road has not been run right through the Rocky mountains' trough. I do not know why it could not go right through there. It could go at least as far as I went because a railway can go as far as I can walk. I do not see why a railway could not go through there, maybe up to White Horse. I may be exaggerating a little as to distance because I did not walk that far, but certainly as far as I went up there a railway can go. The w'hole area wants railway connections and, as one hon. member has said, the railways should precede the opening up of a country. It is full of magnificent resources, minerals of every description in vast quantities. The mover of the resolution (Mr. Irvine) spoke of the great coal deposit at Hudson Hope. I have a piece of coal from Hudson Hope either in my desk or in my room. It is a wonderful deposit of coal, and that deposit has this great advantage, that you could take coal out of that mine and transport it down the Peace river itself. But that is a waterways question, not a railway question.
I wish to pay tiibute to those pioneers who have endured everything in the Peace River country, in Alberta and in Britaish Columbia. They have endured things that no pioneers should be asked to endure. And what have they now? The railways end just where they did forty years ago. But settlement has gone away beyond the railways. The last time I 63260-29i
went for forty miles north of Fort St. John. I saw a very good settlement. As it is to-day, these people have to come down the Alaska highway and then down to Dawson Creek before they can get their produce to a railway.
I support this resolution strongly. I would have supported it from my own observations, but I have also had numerous letters from people up there who know I am familiar with what they are up against.
Even after you leave Peace River, the railroad should be extended east. I know that if my hon. friend the leader of the Social Credit party, (Mr. Low), who unfortunately is out of town to-day, were here he would be advocating the extension of the railway east from the town of Peace River to Athabaska Landing. For how long have we not heard of the hopes of Athabaska Landing. There is another case where the railroad ends in the air. It ends at the town of Athabaska. That line should be extended east from Peace river to Athabaska Landing, then on to Lac la Biche, past Meadow Lake and on to Prince Albert. The hon. member for Athabaska has repeatedly asked for an extension of the railway from Frenchman Butte to connect up a forty-mile gap. My hon. friend the member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker), if he wants to go from Prince Albert to Edmonton, has to do as I did, take that whole long route down to Saskatoon, where he transfers and takes the main line to Edmonton. The line should go straight through, as the hon. member for Athabaska has urged on many occasions.
Mr. CRUICKSHANIv:	Where is Prince
Albert?


Angus MacInnis: Ask the Prime Minister.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I had been expecting my hon. friend the member for Fraser Valley to rise in his place long ago and support this resolution. I shall not answer his question because I think too much of him and he may rise and support this resolution yet. All the railroads in that part of the country, in British Columbia and Alberta, end, as one might say, in the woods, except the one that runs to Prince Rupert.
I hope that the Minister of Transport (Mr. Chevrier) will accept this resolution. There is no reason why he cannot accept it because all it asks for is consideration of this project. But I want him to do more than consider it.
I want him as Minister of Transport to build some of these lines so that the people of this great area, where there are now many thousands of people - there are 10,000 farmers north of the Peace river and there are thousands of fine farms south of the river;
Peace River-Railway Outlet

I do not know of any area that is better than the area from Grande Prairie up to Dawson Creek-will have an outlet.
I support this resolution as an easterner, as no other easterner has yet spoken in favour of it. I know from long years in business that we can make the area prosperous by having those railways completed, which will mean more money for the farmers all round about, and the opening up of the area. This in turn will mean a lot more orders down east. I am one of those who believe that we all live together; if the west prospers the east prospers; and if this area opens up, and the farmers there get at least fair play- which they have not had-they will be able to buy more. How can they buy when they cannot get what they are entitled to? There is no better buyer than the farmer; he will send in his orders when he has the means. In that way the east will participate in the profits which will accrue from carrying out my hon. friend's suggestion. I have heard it on many previous occasions. I am not sure if he brought in this motion before, but I give him credit for his action. Mr. Kennedy brought up the matter when he represented Peace River; and Mr. Fraser, when he represented Cariboo.
This house should unanimously carry this resolution and strengthen the minister's hands to present a strong case to the railway board. For forty years the long-suffering pioneers have endured these conditions; they have carted their grain and produce over all sorts of roads; indeed it is only lately that they have had half-decent roads. In saying that, I am not finding any fault with those responsible for the roads; they did not get the support to which they were entitled, so they could not construct the roads which should have been available for the pioneers. Now let us support these people by giving them an outlet to the Pacific ocean.


Mr. JAMES SINCLAIR (Vancouver North):: In rising to speak to this resolution I should first like to say that in the' last few moments my faith in one of my idols has been rudely shaken. Since coming to the house we here have been proud of the hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol). He is one who periodically has gone out into the west, after each session, and has returned to tell the story of what the west needs. We have heard him tell us here in the house of the long journeys he has taken, to the Great Slave lake, the Great Bear lake, to Aklavik and across the Peace river, and we have all marvelled at his geographical knowledge and been amazed at the way in which he has been able to recall the locations of all

these places. But when the hon. member tells me that the railway terminates at Sqjiamish and that it is in the interior of British Columbia and not on the coast, my faith in him is rudely shaken. Perhaps his knowledge of the north country, too, is not as good as in the past we thought it was.
I should also like to speak of the hon. member for Kamloops (Mr. Fulton). As the house knows, I take a keen interest in the progress of the young member, and I wish to congratulate him. This morning's press carried the announcement that he had been elected national president of the Young Progressive Conservative Association. I was surprised to learn that there were enough young people sufficiently benighted to form a Young Progressive Conservative Association.


Mr. HOMUTH:: You will be surprised again.


James Sinclair: Apparently reaction dies hard in Ontario, blit since it must be that such an association shall exist, I know of no one better fitted to lead it than my young friend the hon. member for Kamloops.
To-night is one of those refreshing occasions to members from British Columbia "When British Columbia questions are discussed in this house, and we see in every part of the chamber British Columbia members rise to speak with no trace of political partisanship.


Edmund Davie Fulton: What were you doing a moment ago?


James Sinclair: You are not a British Columbia problem yet: you are rapidly becoming one. We see the C.C.F. hon. member for Cariboo (Mr. Irvine) rise and put forward a resolution advocating a railway to the Pacific coast, and this is supported by Liberal and Conservative members from British Columbia, all wishing to represent that province in a non-partisan way, but in a provincial way. The reason is very easy to find. We are only three thousand miles from the capital, but in spirit we are ten thousand miles away. There are only sixteen of us here to bring to the attention of the house the problems of British Columbia, and only by being united do we find that we get any attention at all. No matter what government has been in power here, the programme seems to be, as the hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Reid) says, millions for the St. Lawrence, tariff protection for Ontario, great grain subsidies for the prairies, and airy promises for British Columbia. For this reason we have tried to speak of British Columbia problems as British Columbia members, and not as Conservatives or Liberals. However,

Peace River-Railway Outlet
the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green) did introduce a slight political note when he mentioned that an outlet from the Peace River to the Pacific was a policy of the Conservative party. He went farther; he mentioned that one who at that time was his leader, now the leader of the opposition (Mr. Bracken), last year toured British Columbia and visited Ominica and the Peace River.


Howard Charles Green: 1944.


James Sinclair: At that time, when he was not in the house but going around the country, making political speeches; and he said, at the conclusion of this great hegira to British Columbia, that if elected he would promise an outlet to the Pacific coast, so that the people of the Peace River could move their coal and lead and other products to open water. It might be expected that a people so sorely pressed would leap at this promise and show their appreciation of it by returning Conservative members in the ridings affected.


An hon. MEMBER:: I thought you did not talk politics on this resolution.


James Sinclair: But we find that in these ridings-the Cariboo, Skeena and Vancouver North-not only were not the Tories elected but they lost their deposits. Why? Not because the people of the Peace River were stupid, but because they were smart, and they had heard these promises before. I will tell you, Mr. Speaker, where they had heard them. It was at the time, I believe, that the Liberal-Conservative party, as it was then called, had a convention at Winnipeg, and on June 9, 1930, gave their pledges to the nation. Pledge No. 5 was, amongst other railway construction, the construction of a Pacific outlet for the Peace River; and they were elected. My hon. friend the leader of the opposition had little hope of being elected, so that he need not have been quite so careful. The hon. member for Davenport, who is now putting pressure on the present Minister of Transport (Mr. Chevrier) to carry this work through, sat here, having given that pledge, in 1930, with R. B. Bennett as Prime Minister.


John Ritchie MacNicol: And I have supported it every session since then.


James Sinclair: And what was done?	[DOT]


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am not a minister. If I were the minister I would put the railway through.


James Sinclair: So that is why I say that the people of Peace River, the Cariboo and Vancouver North,
have shown very good sense in not paying much attention to the leader of the Conservative party.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Get a new needle; that record is worn out.


James Sinclair: And the interesting thing is that the hon. member for Calgary West (Mr. Smith) played the sajne record to-night.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Are you for it or against
it?


James Sinclair: I
am for it, and I am going to say why I am for it. I know the Ominica and the Ingonika country, and I understand the need of railroad facilities to get heavy materials out of there. Passengers can fly out. The hon. member for Davenport can fly out and can get his grip when he leaves it behind.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I did not catch what the hon. member said. I like to use the railroad when I can.


James Sinclair: But heavy material still requires railway transportation; the wheat of the Peace River, the lead and silver of Ominica and the groundhog country can only move by railway. The hon, member for Kamloops gave a full description of the actual possible railway outlets, and there is no need for us to repeat that, hut simply to support what the people of the Peace River and all of us from British Columbia believe should be undertaken by voting immediately for this resolution.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I am in the happy position of not
being of a controversial nature, and I am not a Rhodes scholar. I really do not know much about the Peace River. So far as I know, there are only two men in Canada wh.o have a complete knowledge of everything, and mightily have they proclaimed that knowledge, the horn. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) and Mr. B. K. Sandwell, of Toronto Saturday Night. If there is anything you are not sure of, ask them; they know everything. At last we in the west are actually getting somewhere. Ontario and Toronto-Toronto particularly-are beginning to see the light.


Edmund Davie Fulton: They repealed prohibition the other day.


George Alexander Cruickshank: There are two
answers to that and George Drew will find the next time that a Liberal government will be back in power. Iam more unfortunate than my roommate. Not only can I con-
Peace River-Railway Outlet

gratulate the hon. member for Kamloops on his appointment to the exalted position he holds as leader of a party of two, but I may say that he has already invited me to dinner with refreshments.
I said I would not take up much time, and I do not intend to. This is the first time in my life that I am appearing in an unofficial capacity to accept a resolution on behalf of the government. Why my hon. friends the Conservatives should be wasting so much time in trying to talk out the resolution I really do not know. The hon. member for Calgary West (Mr. Smith), in his own style, said more in three minutes this afternoon than all the other speakers, have said in four hours. I will say what I have to say in a minute and a half. Next to myself, the hon. member for Rosetowm-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) and the member for Calgary West are probably the two best speakers in this house. I say to my hon. friends, therefore: For goodness sake, keep quiet and let us allow the Minister of Transport to speak and endorse what we have been asking.


Mr. H. G. ARCHIBALD (Skeena):: I will not take up much time. I am going to emulate the other speakers in that regard. I had intended to begin by saying that there seems to be a Chinook blowing through the building, everyone was getting on so well. However, since the last two speakers have spoken, Mr. Speaker, you will realize why I have the disposition I have. In British Columbia politics are real.
I should like to bring out one point that has not been brought out to-day and that is trade with the orient. That will develop in the future to far greater proportions than the trade which has been going on for so long from the Atlantic seaboard. It is just beginning to be developed. China is developing into a united nation and is becoming industrialized, and we in British Columbia want to be in the position where we shall have heavy industry so that we can capitalize on that. If heavy industry develops in British Columbia it will develop in the heart of the country, through Prince George, on through the ground-hog region and over toward the east. That is where the minerals are. That is where the coal is. In that section of the country there will some day be cities to correspond with Pittsburgh, Akron and so on.
Vancouver will make a nice tourist attraction, I admit, but we shall have industry there. All we have to do is to have a lead and transportation will solve the problem. Capital will flow there if the, transportation is there, because the trade will soon develop.

At Prince Rupert we have a port that handled more material during the war than Vancouver did. It has the facilities which the Americans put there during the war and those facilities are second to none. As I said the other evening, it had such facilities put in as the elevator, which has not been used, and so on, and we are in a number one position to handle any trade that develops at Prince Rupert. This railway will be our lifeblood if it can be put in. The government will come to depend upon it and we are looking to the government for that lead. We do not want to be disappointed as we have been in the past.


Mr. H. W. HERRIDGE (Kootenay West):: In a few words I wish to support the resolution, speaking as a member from British Columbia. I cannot add anything to what has already been said in dtescribing the necessity for the project. This necessity was well stated' this afternoon by the hon. member for Cariboo (Mr. Irvine) and others, but I must say that I do not quite agree with the approach of the hon. and gallant member for Vancouver-Burrard (Mr. Merritt). The argument he put forward in connection with the necessity for this railroad extension seemed to me to imply that it was for the advancement and building up of Vancouver.
Personally I think that is a wrong approach to the situation. I always rise to the bait, so to speak, when I hear people glorifying cities and size, and now I am making a countryman's protest. I think the railway should be built, just as other services should be provided, for the building up of smaller districts and not for the purpose of making cities larger. The object should be to decentralize our economy.
The hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard also suggested that Vancouver was one of the leading mining cities in Canada. So far as I know, all mining that has been done in Vancouver has been done on paper. These facilities, railways and roads, are necessary to decentralize our economy and build up the small communities that are the strength and the bright spots in our present democracy.
Take British Columbia. You do not go to Vancouver to see democracy at its best, but to Nelson, Penticton, Kelowna, Kamloops and Chilliwack. We must emphasize the development of these backwoods districts, this hinterland, and not build railways with the idea of simply making larger the cities that are already oversize.
There are on the order paper five resolutions dealing with essential developments in Canada to-day. Personally, I think this is absolutely unnecesssary. This method of approach is

Peace River-Railway Outlet
entirely obsolete. Why are we following such a method? We have to do so at present because no other approach is possible for members of the opposition. We are doing so because the government has failed to bring down a plan for reconstruction covering Canada as a whole. Instead of private members rising to support a railway here, a road there, a bridge here and a wateway there, the government, in my opinion, should have produced an over-all plan, a five-year plan if you like, for reconstruction throughout Canada, having in view tihe necessities of all sections, and then we would discuss it as a Canadian project and not as so many provincial or community understakings. Then we would have railways and roads proposed for British Columbia, irrigation projects for the prairie provinces, waterways for possibly Ontario and Quebec, and coastal facilities for the maritimes.	[DOT]
I trust that this policy of bits and bobs will soon be done away with and that we shall stream-line our procedure for the future, bringing in a plan covering a period of years to take care of the economic necessities of the country as a whole.


Mr. J. L. GIBSON (Comox-Albemi):: Mr. Speaker, in order that the members from British Columbia may be unanimous in their endorsation of the resolution moved by the hon member for Cariboo (Mr. Irvine), I should like to voice my support for his proposal, and also to congratulate him on the able manner in which he presented the facts of the case. I sincerely trust the Minister of Transport (Mr. Chevrier) is not going to be too well informed, so that he may be able to change our minds on the subject.
There is, it appears to me, one very .important matter which has not been brought out to-day, a matter which the minister, who is from the east, may not appreciate. It is that I was going to say most but I will say many of the intelligent people of Canada are moving to the Pacific coast, and we in British Columbia are not able to support these people in our large urban areas, so that we must develop our outlying country, our hinterland. If we in British Columbia are to take care of the population which is going to crowd into that province, we shall have to open up our backwoods, where our great natural wealth lies. So that I would ask the minister to give this matter serious consideration and to do everything he possibly can to forward this project.


Hon. LIONEL CHEVRIER (Minister of Transport):: Mr. Speaker, it is really a matter of some concern to a minister of the crown when everyone in the house is of the same mind in regard to a project of such importance.
I make that statement deliberately, because as a rule the house is in disagreement on matters that are brought forward. As I note the temper of the house in regard to this resolution, I recall the statement made by a former member of this house some years ago, that when the house agrees upon an important project, generally the house is wrong.
Whether or not that be so, it is not my intention this evening to oppose the resolution. Before I go on to discuss it I think I should congratulate the hon. member for Cariboo (Mr. Irvine) on the manner in which he brought the resolution forward. I think he deserves the commendation of hon. members generally for the fair way in which he presented the matter. I think, too, I should add a word of commendation to those who have joined in the debate. It is always pleasing when a subject is discussed in such a non-partisan way, and I think what I have said applies to all who have taken part in this discussion.
In saying what I have to say on this subject this evening I should like the hon. gentleman who introduced the resolution to understand that I am not opposing it. I feel sympathetic toward him and toward the plight in which the people in the Peace River block find themselves but at the moment I am simply discussing the resolution, pointing out some of the objections and some of the difficulties that lie in the way. That there are some objections and difficulties is beyond question, though with many things said by the hon. gentleman I find myself in complete agreement. With others I find that I must disagree, and with those I shall deal at greater length a little later on.
A great deal has been said this evening about the matter of cost. Whether or not hon. gentlemen like it, whether we have in mind a private railway or a public railway, the cost factor must enter into the picture. I make that general statement now, and will come back to it a little later oh. The problem which has been discussed this evening, that of providing an outlet from the Peace River block to the Pacific seaboard, is not new; it has been discussed in this house for many years. It has been the subject of discussion among agriculturists, ranchers, mining engineers, railway engineers, government officials and the like for more than a quarter of a century. During all that time the complaint has been that people living in the Peace River
Peace River-Railway Outlet

block have to back-track or back-haul some five hundred miles before they can reroute their products to the relatively near ports of Vancouver and Prince Rupert. That backhaul is necessary because a chain of mountains intervenes between the seaboard and the Peace River area. The existing railway facilities in the area consist of the Northern Alberta railways, owned and operated jointly by the Canadian National Railways and the Canadian Pacific Railway Company. The distance from railhead at Dawson Creek, British Columbia, to Edmonton, Alberta, is some 500 miles; and the farmers, ranchers and others complain with some degree of equity and justice that they have to reroute their products back in the direction of Edmonton before they can go on to the closer ports on the Pacific coast.
On going over the debates of the house, I find that almost every year from 1922 to 1933 a resolution similar to that before the house this evening was placed on the order paper and debated exhaustively. This evening the hon. member for Cariboo has brought forward the arguments which militate in favour of the construction of this railway. In doing so, [DOT] however, he has raised a very important point, which must come to the attention of the house sooner or later. It is that the policy in reference to the construction of new lines, branch lines or the extension of lines must receive consideration by parliament at some time or another; and in that respect I have to remind the house of the statement made the other evening by the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply (Mr. Howe). The minister dealt extensively with economic conditions in Canada at the moment. One of the things he said was that if at the beginning of the war he had been told that steel production in Canada would have doubled during the war years, he would not have believed it. Then he said that riot only had it doubled but that in the last six months steel production has been in short supply and that there is a backlog of requirements which makes the position very difficult. In view of the statement of the minister that steel is in short supply, of necessity one must have that in mind in dealing with the "immediate consideration" referred to in the resolution.
Then the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply went on to refer to the housing situation, and to say how vital a problem housing is in Canada at the present time. Everyone in this house knows that steel will be in great demand in connection with the construction of commercial buildings and housing generally. Then there is the all-important point of cost'. Hon. members in their discussion this afternoon seemed to put that to

one side, and say -that the time had come when railways of this kind could be built regardless of cost. I say to the house this, that I have before me at the present time some twenty applications from bodies all across Canada demanding the construction of railway lines. The people who have put forward, these requests think them reasonable, and all think they should be built without delay. Some of those lines would be unprofitable, by any stretch of the imagination; others would not even begin to pay operating costs, and still others would npt pay operating costs until they had been in existence or in operation for many years. Some, too, might well be profitable.
Therefore I say to the hon. member that the question of cost, notwithstanding what has been said in the house, is not the allimportant factor, but it is certainly a factor which must be taken into consideration. Whether a railway costs $1 million or $100 million is a matter in which certainly the Minister of Finance would be interested because, particularly during the debate on the speech from the throne at this session, there has been an all-out demand for the retrenchment of expenditures. On Friday of last week the Minister of Finance was able to bring down estimates in which he showed a substantial reduction in expenditures.
I must remind the house that we cannot have the expenditures, and at the same time have the reduction in taxation. There is in the house a demand for a reduction in taxation. I believe there are on the order paper resolutions to that effect. I believe there is, too, on the order paper a resolution to the effect that exemption from taxation should be increased in the case of single men, and in the case of married men as well.
The point I wish to make is this. In a matter of this kind cost is a factor which unquestionably must be taken into consideration. Then, again, when the general question is considered, namely that in which I have just been engaged -the short supply of steel, the extreme necessity for housing, the question of curtailing expenditures and reducing taxes-it may well be that the building of railways will have to await a betterment in the position of those three items.
I note that one hon. member said this should be considered as a great post-war project. Perhaps that is somewhat in contradiction of the resolution, which demands immediate consideration. Having made those general observations, I should like now to address myself to the subject matter of the resolution in particular.

Peace River-Railway Outlet
Again I say to him this, I am not opposing his resolution; I am discussing it, and pointing to some of the difficulties which lie in the way. The difficulties as I see them are three in number. They are physiographic, economic and financial.
Four routes have been discussed as possible solutions to the Peace River area. They are, first the Aggie-Obed outlet, which was mentioned in one of the reports of the commission. Next is the Monkman pass route; the third is Pine pass route, and the fourth is the Peace River route. Any one of these routes would provide an outlet from the territory under discussion; and any one of them would, I take it, meet with the approval of hon. members, although I note that some preference has been indicated in favour of one or other of the four routes.
Since 1925 a number of surveys have been made by the government in connection with these various routes. In these surveys the government has sought to obtain from engineers, who are experts in the matter, who know their business, and who have given the matter some study, various opinions respecting the four routes.
I am informed that five such surveys were made, over the course of the years, and I should like to deal with those surveys as briefly as possible. The first of them was made in 1925, jointly by the Canadian National Railways .and the Canadian Pacific Railway Company. The report was tabled in the house in 1927. That report went fully into the cost, the economics, the facilities, the transportation, and the branch lines which would be required if any one of these branch routes was proceeded with by the government.
The economic studies of the engineers in this report indicated that the best possible route at that time was the Aggie-Obed route, because it was the shortest, and because also is connected the line of the Northern Alberta railroad with the Canadian National Railways at Obed.
Another question, too, was considered in the report, namely as to whether Vancouver or Prince Rupert should be the objective of the western outlet. It was considered that the former port would attract most of the business for many years to come, certainly for such a period as would make it unnecessary to consider any other alternative. The engineers estimated that the minimum cost of the Aggie-Obed route would be somewhere in the neighbourhood of S13 million. They estimated further that the maximum cost would be over $80 million.
The report went on to say, too, that when the traffic out of the Peace River district had reached the amount of over $1,080,000 tons, there should be considered the possibility or the practicability of building the outlet.
I should like to put on record the conclusions of the report. I now quote from the report on various proposed railway routes for a western outlet to the Pacific from the Peace River district, by a joint board of engineers of the Canadian National Railways and Canadian Pacific Railway Company, dated 1926 and 1927:
We may therefore briefly sum up. the results of our studies in the following conclusions:
(1)	The route via Obed is the best western outlet to the Pacific, that is from the national standpoint or from the standpoint of the Canadian National Railways. It may not be the best from the standpoint of the Canadian Pacific Railway, as it implies using part of the Canadian National Railways lines.
(2)	The immediate minimum outlay will be $13,336,000.
(3)	To fully develop the section we have considered will require a minimum outlay of over $80, million, and this does not include any betterments on existing roadways.
(4)	There is no hope even with the existing freight rate of about 39 cents per 100 pounds, for the line to pay even operating expenses on the immediate traffic, or on a traffic many times the present traffic.
(5)	There seems little hope of the line ever being self-supporting -at rates even 50 per cent higher than the present ton-mile freight rate on grain to Fort William for similar distance.
(6)	It would be more economical to handle the business, regardless of the rate received, over the existing lines until the traffic was many times the present.
So much for the joint report of 1925. The next report was that of 1929-30. This was made at the instance of the British Columbia government in cooperation with the railway. The report is not in the Department of Transport; I have not seen it and therefore I am unable to discuss it.
The third report, made in 1931, was made by the engineers of the Canadian Pacific railway at a cost of $250,000 to that railway. It did not agree with the report of 1925 which had recommended the Aggie-Obed route; it rather favoured the Peace river route. The report then went on to say that in the opinion of the engineers, the Canadian Pacific Railway Company favoured a northern route, the Peace River pass.
When that report was brought to the attention of the then Minister of Railways and Canals he tried to get the two railways to agree on a route. He brought them into his office, but all he was able to get the railways to agree upon at that time was that neither of tihe railways should build the outlet but that the government of Canada should foot

Peace River-Railway Outlet

the bill. I do not know what the position of the railways would be to-day with reference to that point, but I have no reason to believe that it would be any different in 1946 from what it was in 1931.
The fourth report, made in 1932, was made jointly by the Canadian National Railways and the Canadian Pacific Railway Company and is known as the Crysdale report. It again went into the various routes, and again this joint report recommended the Aggie-Obed route as being the best outlet to the Pacific coast. That report differs very little from any of those I have discussed up to the moment. I should like to summarize the report by reading the concluding remarks which I think are very much to the point. I am quoting from the Peace River outlet report by the committee of railway engineers appointed to consider the matter in 1931:
At the time the 1925 report was made, local interests were mainly concerned in obtaining a western outlet to cheapen their freight cost to the Pacific, 'and supply further railway mileage in the district. Since that time, a reduction of freight rates has been accorded them, now substantially equalling rates which would obtain if a western outlet were in use.
I pause here a moment because I think the hon. member for Cariboo by his statement would lead the house to believe-at least I gathered his meaning to be such-that the people living in the Peace River area were in a difficult position because they had to pay higher rates on account of the five hundred miles over which they had to back-haul their products before they could again be rerouted to the Pacific coast. I understood him to say that for that reason the freight rate was higher than it would normally be, but I am informed that such is not the case. Certainly that is not the conclusion I have just referred to. In order to make sure that I was not misinformed I got from the officers of the Canadian National Railways a statement on that point.
I am informed that in 1926 the railways voluntarily applied for preferential rates on wheat and wheat products, moving from the Peace River area to the Pacific coast. Those rates were put into effect and have been maintained ever since. They were so favourable that the establishment of the Crowsnest pass rates in 1928 had no effect on the preferential rates. For example, a movement from Grande Prairie to Vancouver under the rates existing prior to 1926 would carry a rate of forty-one 3ents a hundred pounds. The preferential rate was twenty-eight cents a hundred pounds. If the Obed cut-off were provided, shippers in the Peace river area would get a benefit of

only about two cents a hundred pound. I now come back to the conclusion of the report of 1932, which is:
Thus, if not all, have the main requirements of the local interest been met. As the development of the district is from time to time pushed beyond reasonable road haulage distance from the existing lines of railways, local interest will demand further railway mileage. In our opinion this can be, as and when necessary, readily met by further branch-line construction.
In view of the above, our conclusions are:
1.	No western outlet is justified for the present, as the existing railway furnishes the most economical route. It will take many times the present traffic to justify another railway outlet.
2.	The Obed route for a western outlet is the
most favourable from a railway economic standpoint, considering the present phase of the railway situation.	.
3.	We recommend that the matter of a final route be decided when the question is a practical one, believing that by the time the volume of traffic has reached a point where the western outlet is justified, general and possible local conditions may have materially changed. When the decision is imperative, the whole situation should be reviewed, in order to appraise all the contributing factors, including the potential traffic which may accrue from the lands beyond the definite areas included in this report.
I point to this fact because I want to come back to it in a moment. It is concluded here that when the question of building a route becomes practicable, it should receive the attention of the railway. On the files of the department are two letters concerning this report which I think might interest the house. One of these letters was written by Sir Henry Thornton, then president of Canadian National Railways. The other was written by Sir Edward Beatty, who at that time was president of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company.
Notwithstanding the report of the joint engineers recommending the Aggie-Obed route, Sir Henry Thornton wrote to the then Minister of Railways and Canals indicating that he favoured the Obed outlet above everything else but that he did not regard that outlet as a western route. He regarded it rather as a southern outlet, the grades being better than through the Monkman pass and construction being much less costly.
Sir Edward Beatty, on the other hand, endorsed the general conclusion of the joint report with but one exception, that exception relating to the Obed route. He favoured the Peace river route because he believed that the Peace River outlet must be justified on its own permanent value. He stated that while the Obed route was the cheaper of the two from the point of view of construction costs, it could not be considered a proper solution of
Peace River-Railway Outlet
the question because in his estimation the Peace river route, tapping as it did northern resources, was the better of the two.


Howard Charles Green: In what year were those two letters written?


Lionel Chevrier: I have them in my office. Speaking from memory they were written shortly after the Crysdale report.
That brings me to the point I mentioned a moment ago:	Is the question of building
an outlet from the Peace River block to the Pacific coast a practical one to-day? Is tlhat not the question which, above all else, would interest the house? Is the project a practical one from the point of view of cost, from the point of view of population, from the point of view of traffic and from several other points of view? I am sure the house would not want the government to undertake a project of this kind if it we;e convinced that it was not a practical one from those points of view. That is the question which must be considered in the light of the reports, and I should like to deal with it for two or three minutes before I go on to the final report, which was brought down this year and which, I have to say, does not differ a great deal from the reports of 1925, 1931 and 1932.
The question of whether or not the line is practical is one which should engage the attention of the house before a project of this kind is advanced any further.
The house will remember that the joint report of 1925 estimated that when the traffic on the road amounted to 1,080,000 tons it would be economical to build the Aggie-Obed outlet. The figures which I have before me at the moment, and which I should like to give to the house, indicate that with the exception of the war years the traffic over the route for the past ten years has been nowhere near
1,000,000 tons.
I have before me a statement prepared by the Department of Transport on the Northern Alberta Railways. It has to do with the total tonnage carried over these railways from 1932 to 1945 inclusive. In 1932 the total freight tonnage carried over the Northern Alberta Railways amounted to 525,000 tons; 1935,
451.000	tons; 1939, 533,000 tons; 1941. 721,000 tons; 1943, 1,307,000 tons; 1944, 1,345,000 tons; 1945, 959,000 tons. That is the total traffic carried over the Northern Alberta Railways. How much of that traffic comes from the Peace River area I am not able to say, but we all know that a great deal of the traffic over the Northern Alberta Railways goes to Waterways and on to the Mackenzie river district. It is 63260-301
estimated, although I have no manner of proving this statement, by the officers of the Department of Transport that there would have emanated from the Peace River block some 250.000 tons of freight going over the Northern Alberta Railways. If that is the case, we are far from the 1.080,000 tons mentioned in the report of 1925.
While on that subject, may I take one minute of the time of the house to give the operating surplus or deficit of the Northern Alberta Railways for the period from 1932 to 1945. In each year the operating deficit was $1,000,000 or more, with the exception of 1942 and 1943, when the surplus was $1-3 million and $2-5 million. I mention that because it is a factor which must be taken into consideration. The house knows that the operating deficit on the Hudson Bay railway each year amounts to almost half a million dollars and sometimes more than that. Over and above that, there is the cost of the capital construction, which amounts to from $30,(XX),000 to $35,000,000. If the interest thereon were added to the operating deficit on the Hudson Bay railway it would make a total deficit, operating and construction, of about $1,500,000 a year.
The point I make is that if on the Northern Alberta Railways there has been a yearly deficit of almost $1,000,000, what then would be the deficit on the Peace River outlet if it were built?
I now come to the fifth report. It is known as the province of British Columbia report of the committee on resources and railways, 1945. Early in 1945 the government of British Columbia advised this government that it intended to set up a joint committee with the Canadian National Railways to study railway locations and railway lines in northern British Columbia, and it asked this government to appoint members to that committee. The government consented to send two delegates, one representing the Department of Transport and one the Canadian National Railways and it gave these two delegates certain instructions. That committee met on several occasions and finally made itd report, which I have before me at the moment. The conclusions of this report are not a great deal different from those of the previous reports, but there are a number of interesting things in this report to which I think the house would like to have me refer not only because they rave a close bearing on the whole subject-matter of the hon. member's resolution but also because they look at the matter from perhaps a little different aspect. They consider the problem from the point of view of the Pacific Great

Peace River-Railway Outlet
Eastern. I do not know what the views of the two great provinces interested in this project are in this respect, but I would take it that Alberta would be far more interested in developing the Northern Alberta Railways onward from Hines Creek and Dawson Creek, and across to Hudson Hope and Finlay Forks, than in extending the P.G.E. from either Squamish to Vancouver or from Quesnel to Prince George.


John Ritchie MacNicol: If the railway is extended from Dawson Creek, where would it pass the Peace? At Hudson Hope? There is a splendid position at Hudson Hope.


Lionel Chevrier: Yes; I intend to deal with that more fully in a moment.
I go on to the report of 1945, and I see in it a number of things which I think cannot do other than commend themselves to the attention of the house. One of the conclusions we find in it is that it is essential to the proper development of a pioneer country that rail and highway facilities be coordinated. That is extremely important. Railway engineers, I think, are coming to the conclusion that it is far cheaper to coordinate rail and highway facilities than to build railways or even to extend branch lines.
Then this report approves the Peace River outlet. It agrees that the Peace River route is strategically and fundamentally the route by which the northern resources of this great country can be tapped; and here, when it refers to the great natural resources in northern British Columbia and northern Alberta, I cannot but find myself in agreement with my hon. friend; I agree with everything he said in that statement. I myself was amazed to see w'hat immense wealth there is in that great country. It is a potential reservoir of natural resources. There is practically everything there. There are forests and fisheries; there is agriculture; there is mineral wealth of all kinds; there is gold, silver, lead, zinc, uranium.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Coal.


Lionel Chevrier: There is coal in large quantities. My hon. friend has referred to the coal deposits-and so has the hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol)-the centre of which is at Hudson Hope; and someone, I believe, has compared it with the deposits of the whole of the North American continent. I believe that statements of that kind are verified in this report. There can be no doubt about the immense natural wealth of that country. The climate, too, is extremely favourable. It is said in this report that the natives and people living there are able to 
have gardens and grow vegetables and even berries at certain seasons of the year, which would indicate that the territory can be easily inhabited. But the report states, too, that the extension from Prince George n-orth to Hudson Hope will mot improve 'the balance sheet of the Pacific Great Eastern as a whole until the density of traffic has reached 1,000,000 tons; and here we have in 1945 a report which agrees almost in its entirety with that of 1925, twenty years previously; namely, it lays stress on the fact that until the density of traffic has reached 1,000,000 tons it will not improve the balance sheet of the P.G.E. to build the railway.
With reference to the statement made by the hon. member for Davenport that railway construction should always precede development, there are many engineers and railway economists who disagree with that statement and who say that the railway must be built after development has taken place. I am not contradicting the hon. gentleman, but I point to the statement in the report.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The Canadian Pacific
railway went ahead of immigration.


Lionel Chevrier: Yes; railways have gone ahead under certain circumstances, but what I am saying to the hon. member is that the statement cannot be accepted generally because some railway engineers believe there are two sides to the question. Here is what the report says. The report evades that question, but it raises this point:
The committee does not consider it within their terms of reference to state whether the extension should follow development or precede it /but whatever is decided, the need of population in the area is the problem which should receive first consideration.
That is the point which I should like to bring to the attention of the house. All through this report the question of population is the one which is emphasized, the density of traffic; and the report goes on to say that you can have all the railway facilities in the world, but unless you have the traffic you cannot have a profitable and successful railway enterprise. That truly is the point which should, I think, be brought to the attention oif the house. Again, it is said:
To obtain the full development of the resources of the country to be served by the railway directly and by its tributary highway facilities, it is necessary that the country be settled by a sufficient number of the right type of people to furnish traffic to the railway . . .
Adequately to extend the present Pacific Great Eastern to make it pay and to justify expansion of the present railway it is necessary that people move into the country and develop its natural resources.

Peace River-Railway Outlet
And again:
It must be borne in mind that facilities do not make traffic, inhabitants make traffic. There must be people to furnish goods and to provide the need for transportation. Given the people willing to pioneer, this country will support a great number in comfort.
The report concludes by saying:
The initial capital construction expenditure (of the P.G.E.) would be in the neighbourhood of $20,000,000 and there would be additonal money needed for equipment. With the present foreseeable traffic immediately available there would result an annual payment of about $1,000,000 on account of this extension. . This deficit, in a decreasing amount, would persist until the traffic volume reached approximately 1,000,000 tons a year.
I should like to conclude m5' remarks on the 1945 British Columbia report by reading the five conclusions:
1.	Keep the present Pacific Great Eastern railway where it is for the benefit of the country it serves. Coordinate bus, truck and railway services now.
2.	With the present amount of traffic in sight extension will not improve the financial balance sheet of the Pacific Great Eastern railway. A million tons a year of available railway freight would alter this conclusion.
3.	Increase the rate of settlement of the country and the rate of development of the natural resources.
4.	When justified build to Hudson Hope, a future junction of lines beyond north and south of Peace river. The southern connection with Vancouver should be altered as business warrants'.
5.	Complete and revise the railway location surveys before construction.


Howard Charles Green: May I ask the minister
whether a copy of this report could be distributed to each member of the house?


Lionel Chevrier: I should think I have not the authority to distribute the report to the house. My understanding is that it was tabled in the legislature, and I would think there would be no difficulty in obtaining it from there. If my h.on. friend wants to see it I have no objection, but I do not think this house should table a report made to another legislature. I have not given the matter any thought, but that is how it strikes me at the moment.
I think the most important feature of this report is the recommendation to coordinate rail and highway facilities. The house may find, as time goes on, that the railway engineers will feel that rather than build lines at tremendous costs it would be much better to coordinate the existing facilities in rail and highway in order to meet requirements.
If the house will bear with me for a few moments longer I will say a word or two on the question of coordination. The out-of-line
or back-haul which is occasioned, would be a great deal less extensive by coordination as I have indicated than by the building of a new line, and that could be done by branch
lines extending westerly, aided by highway transportation, which would be capable of the development of all the natural resources of the Peace River area up to and including Hudson Hope, much more cheaply than by any other means.
With regard to the question which the hon. member for Davenport put to me, the extension of the line from Dawson Creek to Hudson Hope, thereby tapping the great coal fields of that area, that would require the construction of approximately 150 miles of line, costing probably 814 million. The construction of a through route from Hines Creek through Fort St. John on to Hudson Hope is impracticable, but a line extending seventy-five miles from Hines Creek is feasible and might cost $4,500,000. It is doubtful whether such considerable sums of money should be spent at the present time, particularly when a cheaper means of meeting all reasonable transportation requirements is available by coordination of rail and highway facilities.


John Ritchie MacNicol: If and when the railway is constructed from Dawson Creek northwest to opposite Hudson Hope on the north side of the river, the great deposits of coal being on the north side, there will be a bridge across there and there is an excellent position for a bridge. The river is very narrow where the bridge site is, and many years ago plans were got out for it, so that the railway could go northwest from Dawson Creek, across the river at Hudson Hope direct to the coal mines. I do not like to interrupt the minister because he is doing splendidly and I must congratulate him, but I would ask him to answer the question.


Lionel Chevrier: This coordination provides for building both north and south of the Peace river by extension of a line from Hines creek on and the extension of the line from -Dawson Creek on and crossing the bridge over the Peace river to reach Fort St. John.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Is it suggested that the railway would run north from Dawson Creek, that is directly north, using the new United States bridge across the river? I understood the minister to say that the road would run northwest from Dawson Creek toward Hudson Hope and join the other railway if it were projected from Hines Creek toward Hudson Hope.


Lionel Chevrier: I hope the hon. gentleman does not get the impression that I am
Peace River-Railway Outlet

suggesting that that be done. I am discussing the coordination of the two and how it could be brought about, and I wish to discuss it in a moment with particular reference to the resolution because I think that is a matter which deserves consideration in that regard.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Do I understand the minister to say that the government's view is that rail and truck traffic should be coordinated?


Lionel Chevrier: No, I did not say that. 1 said that certain railway economists held that view. That is not the government's view. It may or may not be.


Arthur Leroy Smith: The minister said it was the most important thing in the report.


Lionel Chevrier: Yes, in this report, but this report is not the government's report. This is the report of the province of British Columbia in conjunction with the railways.


Arthur Leroy Smith: May I ask what the government's view is, if that- is not being impertinent?


Lionel Chevrier: That is what the resolution seeks. I will answer that before I sit down.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Before the minister sits down he might speak of the coordination of rail and air traffic.


Lionel Chevrier: I beg the hon. gentleman's pardon, but I did not get the question.


Arthur Leroy Smith: The minister might also deal with the coordination of rail and air traffic. There seems to be rather a difference.


Lionel Chevrier: I am dealing with one resolution that has to do with the building of a rail outlet and not an air outlet from the Peace Rivef block, and I must address my remarks exclusively to that question. The coordination I have referred to, as applied to the resolution of the hon. member for Cariboo, would work perhaps something like this. A highway service based at Dawson Creek as railhead, not exceeding 100 miles in length of run, would serve agricultural development in the Fort St. John area lying to the west of the Beaton river. This would make use of the Alaska highway and bridge over the Peace river to reach Fort St. John. A similar service operating from railhead at Hines creek, approximately 100 miles, would develop the rest of the territory north of the Peace, and advantage might also be taken of the provincial highway toward Grimshaw to develop
(Mr. Chevrier.]
the country in that direction. If highway operations are to be conducted with an eye to economy, it would be necessary to operate with heavy trucks and trailers, and this would of necessity confine the service to main highways having adequate gravel surfac. Depots might be established along the main highways at intervals of approximately twenty miles. The railway would not attempt to render transportation service except to and from such depots.
Service via the highway could, however, be expected to develop to build a country forty miles in width and twenty miles on either side of the highway. Such service would need to be developed cooperatively with the province, which would undertake to maintain the highway in fit condition for operation and to protect the railway from unfair competition, although as regards the latter, extension of railhead would in itself largely preclude such competition.
On the other hand, the railway company would be prepared to pay standard licence fees for its motor vehicles and gasoline taxes. Highway services such as I have envisaged them would, of course, be operated at a loss, notwithstanding what has been said, and the economic advantage to which I have referred springs from the fact that the loss incurred in the highway service is less than the loss which would be incurred in railway services due in the latter case to- fixed expenses.
It follows from this that the answer to the Peace River problem might well be in the coordination of highway and railway facilities. I have dealt with the coordination of highway and railway facilities because of what is contained in this report of 1945. As I said a moment ago, it is the feeling of some railway economists who have gone into this question of the extension of the P.G.E. that such should be the policy for the future. It would remain to study the question to find out whether that policy is or is not a good one.
That brings me to the conclusion of my remarks. To sum up what I have said, the matter immediately before us is a resolution which reads:
That, in the opinion of this house, the government should give immediate consideration to the building of a railway outlet from the Peace River country to the Pacific coiast.
I started by saying that I was not opposing the resolution, I was simply discussing it. I have pointed to some of the difficulties in the way. I have said they are three in number, physiographic, economic and financial, and I have referred also to the immediate difficulty having regard to the short supply of steel. As the resolution is worded, I can see no

Peace River-Railway Outlet
objecting to accepting it, and I now inform the house that I will ask the government to give immediate consideration to this project.


William Irvine: Mr. Speaker, I have been very much gratified with the tone of the debate, which has been referred to already by the minister, and it has been a pleasure to note the general unanimity of opinion with respect to the whole question. I also appreciate very much the fact that the minister has been kind enough to accept the resolution, which as he said .means that the government will give consideration to the problem. That having been done, I desire to extend the thanks of the people I represent for the consideration the minister has given their plea, which has been presented through me.
As the minister proceeded with his remarks I made a few notes. I do not know that I shall try to go over them all, because it would take too much time; and I am afraid the order in which I have them here would not correspond with their sequence in the minister's remarks. He discussed the subject dispassionately and fairly, and there is no great objection I w'ould wish to take to what he said, certainly none at all to the attitude he adopted. But there are one or two matters upon which I should like to comment.
In the first place the minister said something as to the practicability of the construction of the road. I hope the minister has not prejudged the issue before it is considered by the government. I do not suggest that the minister said it was impractical, but there seemed some little doubt in his mind about it. In the first place, of course, I submit that it his business to be careful about everything he says on an issue as big as this, and that he and bis oolleagues must give consideration to every phase of the problem which is contained in the proposal. But I would suggest to the minister that if there is doubt as to the practicability of building the line, in my mind there is no doubt at all as to the impracticability of not building it, and I think that is of major importance at the moment.
The main questions the minister raised were: costs, the population and the traffic. The population and the traffic are practically the one question. As to costs, I do not think anyone really suggested that costs were something that could be entirely left out of consideration. Most of us realize that costs are very important matters in anything we attempt, and I do not think anyone would suggest that we should plunge into a great undertaking without carefully counting the cost. But in regard to financing the undertaking, I hope the government will not find any difficulty there if from other points of view, and especially the economic point of view, they should find its advisable to proceed with the project. It may appear to be a very big task to build this railway, but it is not such a task compared with what this government faced in 1939, the task of preparing this country for war and for the production of the materials that were necessary for the defence of this nation. That was a task which might well have staggered them. Supposing the cost of this project should go to 8100,000,000; in view of the admitted wealth of the area and the possibility of developing that wealth and using it in the national economy, surely that is not a staggering sum when we consider what may be expected from its expenditure.
Then as to the population, I would not be surprised if the population were to get less and less from now on, instead! of more and more, if the line is not built. I hazard this opinion, that it is foolish for any country to permit people to go into the backwoods without a means of transportation; and I think-


Arthur Leroy Smith: Do not talk yourself out of this. We are all with you.


William Irvine: No, I am not going to do so. I am not blaming the government for having done that; as a matter of fact it has not been the general policy of this country to allow people to migrate to certain sections without building railroads to them. But certainly it is unreasonable to expect a great railway traffic when there is no railway over which the traffic can move. I think that is a reasonable thing to say; and I believe the minister will agree that if that line were built and the transportation facilities were adequate, not only would the population speedily increase, but the production of each farm unit would also increase greatly, and thus increase the traffic. May I point out to the minister that the report he gave concerning the Northern Alberta Railways very largely dealt with the years of the great depression, when practically every railroad line in Canada showed a deficit. The two years of the war period showed a marked increase in traffic, while the others, naturally, were down.
I know the hon. member for Calgary West (Mr. Smith) is a very wise man, and he has given me a hint which perhaps I had better take. As I have said, I greatly appreciate the minister's attitude, but before I sit down I wish to say a word in explanation to the hon. member for Jasper-Edson (Mr. Kuhl). I just want to point out that when the hon.
464	COMMONS
Social Security-Mr. Bertrand (Terrebonne)
gentleman reads my speech and his own in Hansard I think he will see that he misunderstood my point. I did not suggest that the construction of this railroad should be undertaken in order to provide employment. My suggestion was that construction of the railroad would enable us to tap the great resources of a vast territory; that new industries might well be expected to arise as a consequence, and that thereby we would be able to develop industries to meet the needs of the people, at the same time, if you like, providing employment as an incidental to the production of those goods. I wish to make it clear to my hon. friend that I have never been so foolish as to suggest a policy by which people would be provided with work merely for the pleasure of looking at them working. No one I know of has ever advocated an economic policy of that sort. Let us assume that all modern equipment is used, that we have been able even to harness atomic power, and that we have reduced the necessity of human labour to the ultimate. Still it is possible that we shall have to work for an hour or so each day. That would be full employment, under a definite set of circumstances; and that is all we mean by full employment.
Therefore I hope that with this explanation my hon. friend and I will not appear to be as far apart as one might have thought while listening to his remarks.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Mr. LIONEL BERTRAND (Terrebonne) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, the government should bake into consideration, the advisability of including in, their social security programme a system of allowances .to every person, without any income or means of support, who, by reason of an injury, accident or congenital infirmity, is at a disadvantage in seeking or obtaining employment, or incapable of providing for his subsistence, and whose age prevents him from benefiting by the social security legislation now in force.
He said: Mr. Speaker, this resolution barely needs comment. Therefore my remarks will be very short because, furthermore, I should like to know the opinion of the house on this question.
The problem of social security is becoming more important than ever in a world upset by war. In this respect, Canada has accomplished an effort which deserves mentioning. Family allowances are now permitting large families with low income to face the heavy

charges imposed upon them by a higher cost of living. Indigent mothers, blind and old age people are drawing from various government grants which alleviate their sufferings and allow them an improvement in their uprooted life. Allowances and pensions afford veterans an opportunity to rebuild their civil life on a better basis, and secure them a living if, physically speaking, they have left part of themselves in this conflict. The labourer temporarily out of work may rely on unemployment insurance benefits, a social law which, however, in order to keep up with new conditions and new circumstances, should undergo several amendments.
Family allowances are stopped at the age of sixteen; old age pensions start at seventy. May I say that the age for these latter pensions should be lowered as soon as possible to sixty-five years. The 54-year difference between the ages of sixteen and seventy represents more than the average human life. In my opinion, a certain section of the people, especially included within these age limits, was left unprovided for; that is, the invalid and cripple. This group includes the victims of infantile paralysis, the victims of all kinds of accidents who do not fall under the benefits of any provincial accident insurance act, persons suffering from congenital deformity and other sick people who cannot be cured.
If they, or their famly, are wealthy, these invalids can obtain all the necessary treatments in peaceful surroundings which will thus alleviate the burden of their misfortune. If they have no money or if they are paupers, they fall under public charity. No municipal by-law will provide any help for them; no provincial law can give them any grant, and I could not discover any federal statute which could give them assistance of any kind. No one will hire any invalid person; they are not accepted on the labour market. In this age of mechanization, the machine, which does not-stop, supersedes the human being who, in order to follow it, must have strong arms, strong legs and powerful eyesight. Invalid and crippled persons are set aside for reasons of security and production. In the meantime, the cripple or invalid, out of work or occasionally employed in some casual job, cannot earn his living; if he has a wife and children, his fate is simply tragic. Then he must resort to public charity, to welfare associations, and even beg from door to door; besides his misfortune he must beg and undergo the brutal obligation of living desperate days with no hope of improvement. From week to week, under the heavy yoke he has to bear, he

Social Security-Mr. Coldwell
will become discouraged, if not filled with despair. Misfortune will poison some persons, but misery will kill him.
Crippled and invalid persons deserve their share under the sun. They have a right to happiness to the same extent as any one of us. The conditions of modem living, which are improved by scientific inventions, gives everyone a minimum of comfort. In order to win. the war, we had to spend billions; can we refuse setting aside a few hundred thousand dollars to rid us of poverty? At present we are spending millions to help the destitute populations of the old world; by an elementary sense of charity, should we not also think of those living near us who are victims of hazard, who are the outcasts of happiness?
In Great Britain, it is intended to enact-if it has not already been enacted-legislation providing for the employment of crippled and invalid persons. All employers with twenty employees or more, must hire a number of invalids equal to two per cent of their total effective. This is the disabled persons employment act. I do not know the opinion of the government over this-legislation, and even less its immediate or future intentions toward invalid or crippled persons. But I sincerely believe that, during the present session, this unfortunate section of our society should be provided for. Would it not be right for the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Claxton) to study this problem, to give a statement concerning these indigent persons, and then to recommend a suitable system of allowances, paid by the federal government, or subsidized both by the federal and provincial authorities? The social security programme cannot be complete if indigent invalids and crippled persons are left to their unfortunate fate.
Everyone endorses a programme of social security for children, for the family, for indigent mothers, for the aged and blind persons and for veterans and disabled soldiers. Everyone will also endorse a movement to extend to cripples and invalids the total sympathy of the nation if special legislation to that effect is presented. Their existence on a lounge chair is restricted to the horizon of their window. They live in darkness, without life or company, in a state of perpetual restlessness toward the future, constant dejection, sleepless nights and continuous disappointment. A person who has never suffered cannot understand the darkness which is cast upon the life of a hapless person affected with infirmity, want and very often poverty. Let us brighten tiheir existence by giving them some means of living. Let us assure them that if they are
ignored locally the whole nation is not indifferent to their fate and will not reject them from our national life. Spreading joy means spreading peace. To abolish social misery means strengthening the security of the nation.


Major James William Coldwell: Mr. Speaker, I should like to congratulate the hon. member for Terrebonne (Mr. Bertrand! who has just introduced this resolution. I think it is worthy of the support of the house and the government. I believe the proposal that he has made to-night will before many years have passed-I was going to say I hoped before many months had passed-be given full effect.
I often think of people who are in the condition he has described, that of disability. I think of what persons with disabilities which perhaps have extended over a long period of years have to endure. That is something that those of us who enjoy good health can scarcely realize. It is all very well in the home where there is a regular income to have one who is permanently handicapped, but I often think that in homes where the income is low or where there is virtually no income the misery cannot be estimated, not only of the individual who is permanently incapacitated but of those who have to care for and see the suffering of the one afflicted.
When the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Claxton) was speaking this afternoon I thought how much we could do if we would to alleviate these chronic and, as my hon. friend has stated, congenital diseases which afflict so many persons. I know something of it myself. I wish to say that as far as the party to which I belong is concerned, for thirteen years we have urged that the aged should be cared for and that the blind should be given adequate pensions to enable them to live decently and enjoy life to the extent that they can under the circumstances from which they suffer. We have urged the same consideration for persons who suffer from arthritis and from many other diseases that are incurable, like disseminated sclerosis. I only wish that this house could see its way clear to give every sufferer who cannot earn his or her daily bread and is wholly or partly dependent on others the necessary assistance so that they may be enabled to receive the care that they should receive.
I do not want to delay the house, nor do I want to interfere with others who would like to speak to this motion before eleven o'clock. I wish again to congratulate the hon. member who introduced this resolution. I am perfectly sure that it is deserving of support. I hope we

Social Security-Mr. Marquis
shall all assist in bringing about a condition of society in which those who cannot earn their daily bread or those who are shut in and suffering may be recognized as the responsibility of the whole community. When we have achieved that I believe we shall have established the foundation of a society which may not only profess but actually become in the true sense Christian.


Mr. EUGENE MARQUIS (Kamouraska) (Translation):: Mr. Speaker, I had not expected that this resolution would be discussed at once. I would have considered it preferable to have an opportunity of making some preparation in order to submit more adequately to this house the few arguments I have to offer. First, I wish to congratulate the mover of this resolution, the hon. member for Terrebonne (Mr. Bertrand). He gives expression to an urgent appeal from those among the population who suffer perhaps more than any others.
We now have social laws which help children, prevent them from suffering, and ensure them food and a proper education. We have social laws whereby a helping hand is extended to old people who, after having spent the better part of their life in caring for their families and developing their country, are entitled to some compensation from the nation they have so long served. But there is one class of people who are still in a worse plight than others; I refer to those in their thirties, forties or fifties who, through some disability, are unable to earn a living. In our rural districts, I have often met some of those poor people who have aged beyond their years, and are unable to earn enough to support their wives and children, but are too proud to request any help from public organizations or municipalities or to accept any assistance from neighbours who would be in a position to help them. Those are the people who are most in need of the government's assistance.
To my mind, in keeping with the principle which made it possible for the government to pass the Old Age Pension Act, those who reach that stage prematurely, who, at fifty are as incapacitated as others are at seventy, should be entitled to state assistance.
I am happy to concur in the opinions expressed by the hon. member for Terrebonne. Twenty-five or fifty years ago, beggars could be seen everywhere in the street. Many of us as youngsters delighted in listening to some vagabond's life-story or to the tales he could tell. Nowadays, society has forged ahead and individual hardship is less frequent. Federated charities are active in our cities. This federa-

tion was inaugurated to carry on the work of essential charities and to help various associations which could not, unaided, achieve their aim.
Charity can be organized. It is not socialism but social legislation enacted in order to rectify certain anomalies and cure certain ills of our society. It is neither state paternalism for state control of individual or social groups but a remedy designed to alleviate some of our ills.
I represent a constituency whose population lives rather well and even very well, in some centres. But it has not been altogether spared. I have seen with my own eyes the head of a family dragging himself to work every day; this man should not have worked but his pride urged him to go and eke out a living for1 his wife and child, who, although she is sixteen, is herself incapable of working.
Mr. Speaker, those who have witnessed, in their own constituency or elsewhere, such cases as I have just mentioned, know that they are common to every parish, every county, every province.
In the county of Terrebonne, the citizens have urged their member to have the Old Age Pensions Act amended by parliament, for the benefit of cripples and invalids; the same request has been made in my constituency and, no doubt in others throughout the country, the same appeal has been voiced.
Mr. Speaker, I do not think this measure would impose too heavy a burden on the budget of tlhe Minister of National Health At the present time, old age pensions amount to a sizeable figure. The crippled are very much less numeapus that the old people; in fact, they constitute but an insignificant proportion of our population. Those unfortunate people are not themselves in a position to present their request, but we are by fairness and charity bound to take their interests at heart in this house.
It might be argued that the setting up of an organization for the administration of an act dealing with the invalids and the crippled would present tremendous difficulties. I would venture a suggestion in this regard. Some may think that, were we to include invalids under the old age pension act, a certain number of so-called invalids might, by playing on sentiments, obtain a certificate entitling them to benefits to which they would have no right. There is a very easy means of preventing any such fraud. Let (the Department of National Health set up a medical board, with members appointed by the government, to examine every applicant claiming to be an invalid or a cripple.

Social Security-Mr. Blackmore
Those who are really incapacitated, who are now abandoned without any government assistance, who could hardly obtain relief from municipalities or corporations, might thus be helped and assisted. Under our provincial laws, a man is not bound to help his brother. He should perhaps consider it a natural obligation, because Christianity teaches to help and to love one another. But We know that this is often forgotten, as well in mutual as in Christian love. Well, when a man has in his house one or two of his crippled brothers, he must, under Christian law, receive them and assist them, but he is not bound to do so under civil law and these disabled or incapacitated individuals are completely abandoned. Then the municipalities should offer them relief, but in many cases it is difficult to secure.
Finally, may I point out that our government has lent a helping hand to the underprivileged, protected our children and provided them with proper means of development., helping them to grow and become stronger while giving full play to their particular talents; it has also assisted the elderly, bringing a bit of happiness and comfort to them in their old age in recognition of the devoted service they rendered their country by raising a sound and strong family. I should now like to express the hope and wish that this same government will, in the near future, take the necessary steps to relieve our invalids who are unable to earn their livelihood.
(Text):


Mr. J. H. BLACKMORE (Lethbridge):: Mr. Speaker, as I sat here to-night and heard the eloquent and beautiful expressions with which the hon. member for Terrebonne (Mr. Bertrand) presented his case, I was unable to refrain from thinking of the vast difference which has come over the house during the last ten years. It is ten years since the members of the Social Credit group were trying to get the members of this house to listen to the idea that there should be distributed among the people purchasing power. I suppose every hon. member remembers that at that time it was a common sneer that we were advocating twenty-five dollars a month. We have all heard the hon. member for Terrebonne to-night advocate more than twenty-five dollars a month for all those who, from one cause or another, have been rendered unable to gain access to the means of life. Of course the members of the Social Credit group will endorse heartily and enthusiastically all that the hon. member for Terrebonne has said.
May I draw the attention of the house to one or two further considerations which naturally arise? The Minister of Transport (Mr. Chevrier) has only just now been telling us about the need for being careful about money. The hon. member for Terrebonne is not worrying about money, and I submit Mr. Speaker, that this house must find the means of obtaining the money for the achievement of the objectives which this house finds desirable. We are living in an age of superabundance. There is no doubt whatever that we can produce all the food and clothing and shelter in this country which are necessary to provide every one of the unfortunates whom the hon. member has in mind with all he can possibly use-not a mere pittance, but an abundant life. It is equally obvious that we can produce enough to accomplish the other objectives which this house has in mind -the building of railways which will be outlets of the Peace River area, the development of other projects which will be necessary in order to make this nation strong and happy. We must find a means of turning these goods, this real wealth, into financial wealth. I would suggest that all hon. members quite earnestly set about trying to find out what that method is. With that I will close my remarks at the present time.


Mr. PIERRE GAUTHIER (Portneuf):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to say only a few words in support of the motion of the hon. member for Terrebonne (Mr. Bertrand), to tell him that his motion was due to be discussed some day, the sooner the better, and that as a medical man it is to me a pleasure and a satisfaction to give to those who are incapacitated by congenital infirmity work such as they would want to do.
I do not find, as the hon. member who has spoken before me suggests, that the chamber has changed at all. What we were discussing was not social credit, we were favouring assistance to those who could not earn their living and, as the motion of the hon. member for Terrebonne states, are without any income or means of support. If I understand well the social credit theory, its supporters want to give a bonus to everyone, incapacitated or not. That is the distinction between the social credit theory and the theory of the hon. member for Terrebonne, and that is why I am supporting the motion. As a medical man I have been very close, closer than those of any other profession, to the infirm. In my province we have hospitals and hospices to help crippled people, but even though we have these establishments I believe, with a law passed by the government adding to the social security programme, we could help the hospitals in taking care of the infirm and the crippled.

Social Security-Mr. Cote (Verdun)
That is all I have to say at this time, but I wish again to congratulate the hon. member for Terrebonne and all those who have spoken in favour of this motion.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I just rise to congratulate. the hon. member for Terrebonne (Mr. Bertrand) upon sponsoring this resolution and to express my hearty support of it. Some years ago, in the province of British Columbia, through regulations enacted under the jurisdiction of the social welfare department, all people coming within the scope of this resolution were cared for, on a somewhat limited basis; and then two years ago,J pending legislation by the federal government, those regulations were put into statutory form under the social assistance act. So that now, in British Columbia, by law, all people coming within the scope of this resolution are cared for in a limited manner; that is, they receive, on the whole, slightly less than those who receive old age pensions, and in British Columbia, as I think all hon. members know, $30 a month is paid to old age pensioners. While that assistance is limited and insufficient, I can speak from personal experience of what it has meant to hundreds of people in the interior of British Columbia. Even that limited assistance has changed life for them in many respects. I wish to express my support of this resolution, and I trust that all hon. members will support it and that when it is passed it will result in the federal government assuming its responsibility in this respect, and including proposals of this kind in a national security scheme which will tnake it possible for these people to live a happy and decent life.


Mr. P. E. COTE (Verdun):: I wish to join with the hon. members ^ho have congratulated the mover of this resolution. It certainly shows on his part an intention to alleviate the difficulties of those who have to compete on the labour market when handicapped by injury, accident or congenital infirmity. I am all for the help which can and should be given to that class of our Canadian population. I am just wondering what legislation in the form of concrete proposals this house could initiate without preliminary consultation with the authorities that have the prime responsibility of looking after these matters; I mean the provincial authorities. I do not know if the matter has already been the subject of any discussion at the interprovincial conference which will be resumed later on in the month, but I think this angle should have been discussed by the mover.

In the second place, I respectfully submit that before resorting to allowances and financial help to the disabled of such a category as is entitled to be covered by this resolution, all other means of rehabilitation should be resorted to. I would have preferred seeing this matter discussed under that angle. I would be a much more enthusiastic supporter of a motion which would find ways and means of rehabilitating disabled and injured persons as, for instance, the Department of Veterans Affairs does so well with the veterans of this and the other great war. Citizens of this country have a right to expect something more than charity from the government of this country. Most of them have had an active period in their life; they have contributed to the development of our economic and social life, and they are entitled to a concrete and useful help in order to reduce their disabled condition. For those disabled persons covered by this resolution who are still of an age where they can be trained in some way and rehabilitated for the labour market, I would rather suggest some ways and means of helping them to attain that end, and I would be inclined to support such a resolution as this only when I have been convinced that there was absolutely no other way of rectifying this unusual situation than by granting allowances or financial aid.
I hope that this matter will come up again for discussion in the house and that every angle of the situation will be discussed before any decision is taken. Nevertheless I wish to congratulate the hon. member for Terrebonne on having afforded the house an opportunity of discussing such an important question as help for a class of citizens who certainly cannot be left in distress and who need the assistance of the responsible authorities in the country.


Mr. J. A. ROSS (Souris):: I should like to congratulate the hon. member for Terrebonne (Mr. Bertrand) on the manner in which he has introduced this resolution. I remember when the estimates of the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Claxton) were before the house during the last session the member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker) discussed the matter rather fully, and I believe the minister said he would give sympathetic consideration to the proposals and suggestions made at that time.
As has been well pointed out by one of the speakers, it is not so serious a matter where there is a steady income, but where there is a cripple or someone who comes under any of the various headings that have been so well

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set forth by the hon. member, and where there are financial difficulties coupled with such incapacity, the situation is quite different.
Dealing with some of the remarks of the hon. member who has just taken his seat, I would point out that there is at least one organization, and there may be more, already doing a splendid job, though it is more or less on a charitable basis. They solicit financial contributions from the public, and the last contribution I was called upon to make before coming to attend this session was solicited by such a committee. They operate two or three hospitals in the country to take care of and endeavour to train younger people, but it is most difficult for these people who find themselves in straitened circumstances financially to have to depend on such charity. If the department has not some concrete suggestion to take care of such people, as suggested by another speaker, it might well, after a thorough investigation, give some assistance to worthy institutions which are now trying on their own to assist the unfortunate who find themselves in such difficult circumstances.
If the minister will recollect the case brought forward by the hon. member for Lake Centre and other members as well when his estimates were before the house at the last session, he will recall that he said he would give the matter sympathetic consideration. I simply wished to say a few words in support of the resolution.


Mrs. GLADYS STRUM (Qu'Appelle):: I
rise to support the motion and I am happy to see that it includes various categories. I hope it also includes those people who are suffering from arthritis and rheumatism. There are many crippling and disabling diseases that are painful. While I realize that many persons could benefit from training, I would point out that there are many others who are so incapacitated physically that it is impossible for them to use both hands, or in some other way they are incapable of engaging in any useful trade.
I hope that when the government institutes such an allowance or pension it will not wait, as in the case of pensions for the blind, until the recipient is forty years of age. It is a great mistake to leave a person to charity or chance until he or she attains that age. A pension for any of the purposes contemplated by this resolution should start where the family allowance leaves off, and we should supplement the allowance with training or some other service which would enable the individual, as far as it is humanly possible, to attain some degree of accomplishment and
human satisfaction. A great many people are handicapped and their lives unduly stunted because we have failed to make any financial provision or to give them training of any kind to develop them. I hope that the government will see fit to include such persons along with the categories set out in the dominion-provincial proposals, under which they propose to take care of certain specific diseases or disabilities. I hope also that any plans which the government has in mind will at once proceed to take care of those people who are part of our society and for whom society must take the responsibility.
On motion of Mrs. Strum the debate was adjourned.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Tuesday, April 2, 1946.