1946-03-28

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. GORDON GRAYDON (Peel):: Before the orders of the day are proceeded with I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister in his capacity as Secretary of State for External Affairs. In view of the fact that we have a Canadian observer at the meeting of the security council in New York, I should be very glad, and I think the house would be pleased as well, if the Prime Minister could impart to us such information as may be proper from the report of that observer covering the present situation, which appears so grave, at the New York conclave.


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Secretary of State for External Affairs):: All I can say to my hon. friend is that I understand that at three o'clock this afternoon there was to be a secret session of the security council at which matters of procedure would be considered. Apart from that, I have no knowledge of any other actions about to be taken.


Gordon Graydon: I take it there has been a report from the Canadian observer on the situation to date.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: May I say
to my hon, friend that I have an official report, whether from the Canadian observer or from our embassy, I cannot say. The report I give on my responsibility as the minister responsible speaking in this house.



OFFICIAL SECRETS ACT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. M. J. COLD WELL	(Rosetown-
Biggar): In his address to the house dealing with the matter of espionage, the Prime Minister expressed the hope that the views of Canada might be disseminated to the people of Russia., Has he any knowledge as to whether this has been done?
William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have no knowledge of what, if anything, has been done.
Fish Transportation



WAR ASSETS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. R. PEARKES (Nanaimo):: May I direct a question to the Minister of Reconstruction? Can the facilities of the Pacific coast communications system, recently declared surplus to requirements by the armed forces, now be made available for use by the general public?


Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Reconstruction) :: War Assets are now dealing with the property in question. It will take some time before arrangements can be made to place the services under civilian ownership or to operate them under civilian control. Until then, it will not be possible to throw the facilities open to public use. The services are not willing to open the service to the public, and as long as they are operating the facilities, nothing can be done.



MANITOBA AND SASKATCHEWAN-PLANE TRANSPORT TO RAILHEAD

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. RONALD MOORE (Churchill):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Fisheries, notice of which has already been given. On account of bad weather conditions this winter in northern Manitoba and Saskatchewan, the fishermen in this area have been left with approximately five hundred tons of good quality fish which cannot be transported by tractor because of the early, spring thaw. The secretary of the trades and labour council at Flin Flon, Manitoba-


Mr. SPEAKER:: Order. The question
should be short and to the point. Any lengthy question should be put on the order paper.


Ronald Stewart Moore: The question is as follows, Mr. Speaker: In view of the announced food shortage would the minister consider providing a transport plane to freight this product to the nearest railhead-


James Horace King: I have already asked the hon. member to put his question on the order paper.


Mr. COLDWELL:: May I point out that this is a matter of food spoiling and is therefore of some considerable urgency.


Hon. H. F. G. BRIDGES (Minister of Fisheries):: I received notice of the question, and no doubt it is a matter of urgency. In reply I would say that since the administra-

tion of the fisheries of Manitoba and Saskatchewan is entirely in the hands of the governments of those provinces, I immediately referred to the appropriate provincial ministers, Hon. J. S. McDiarmid, Minister of Mines and Natural Resources of Manitoba, and Hon. J. L. Phelps, Minister of Natural Resources and Industrial Development of Saskatchewan, representations which reached me Tuesday morning with regard to difficulties in the transportation of fish to railhead at Flin Flon. I presume the matter is receiving the attention of these ministers. I have not received any information from them.



GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Wednesday, March 27, consideration of the motion of Mr. Fernand Viau for an address to His Excellency the Governor General in reply to his speech at the opening of the session.
Mrs. GLADYS STRUM (Qu'Appelle):: 
Mr. BERTRAND (Prescott):: Would the hon. member permit a correction?


Mr. HACKETT:: I should be very happy to.


Elie-Oscar Bertrand: He has
omitted the cost of manufacturing of the 9% pounds of cheese in 100 pounds of milk, at
the rate of 2% cents, which would be subtracted from the price received by the producer. This does not apply to butter. Furthermore, the hon. member has not referred to the value of skim milk in the feeding of young cattle and poultry, which amounts to about 40 cents per hundred pounds.


John Thomas Hackett: I am very grateful to the hon. member for his observations. However I think the Chair will admit the hon. member did not ask a question. I concede readily that the feeding value of skim milk is greater than that of whey, and that calves or pigs fed on whey would not fatten for the market. As against that however there is the labour charge for separating the milk and washing the machine; all those dreary hours of drudgery that are completely eliminated when the whole milk, as it comes from the cow, is sold to the cheese factory.


Elie-Oscar Bertrand: It is the
same thing if one takes milk to the cheese factory.


John Thomas Hackett: My hon. friend has not asked a question; I submit with great deference that the additional labour the butter producer has to put into his product offsets added value that may be found in buttermilk when compared with whey.
To pursue further my earlier observations:
I said it was easy to understand why the minister should seek to retain a high and ranking place for Canadian cheese in the British market. Our butter making is not considered a success in Great Britain; whether our butter be good or bad is beside the issue. We do not make the kind of butter that is liked in England. We do not make butter which competes successfully in the English market with Irish butter, Danish butter, or with that commodity about which we heard so much in other times and places-New Zealand butter. On the other hand Canadian cheese is so highly esteemed in Great Britain that they call it English Stilton. It is consumed in large quantities, and undoubtedly if that market could be secured for us in perpetuity, and without rivalry, it would be beneficial to the Canadian producer.
I submit, however, that that market must not be secured at the cost of an injustice and of permanent damage to the dairy industry as a whole, and to the dairy industry of Southeastern Quebec in particular. Canadians are a butter-eating people; the eating of butter is a life habit. I do not believe it is a habit from which they can be easily weaned. To-day it is practically impossible to buy butter. We find that the reserves stand at roughly 9 million pounds, whereas
The Address-Mr. Hackett

a year ago they were 20 million, two years ago about the same figure, and for the last five years at this time of year they have shown an average of about 18 million pounds plus. '	*
I speak only of creamery butter, of course. To-day our reserves in creameries, storage and transit are barely' 9 million pounds, or less than half of what .they were a y'ear ago, or what they have * been on the average in the last five years. I point this out to show that there is a scarcity.
I wish to put on record the following table to show the number of dairy cattle exported to the United States in (the past ten years:
1945 	 1944 	 1943 		
1942 		
1941		
1940 		
1939 		
1938 		
1937 		
1936 		
Those are the numbers of dairy cattle exported to the United States under a system of price fixing, controls and inadequate returns to the makers of butter, and during the four year period which preceded the war. The number exported has increased over threefold during the period of controls. The number exported to the United States this year up to March 31 is nearly double the number that was exported during the same period last year.
I want to open a parenthesis here, because one can never talk about a matter of this kind without being charged with being actuated by political considerations. I want to say that despite what has happened there was an increase of 7-2 per cent last year in the production of butter in the province of Quebec, while there was a reduction of 3-4 per cent in the production of chee-se. There is a reason for the trend. As I said a few minutes ago, the province of Ontario has paid a bonus of two cents per pound on all cheese manufactured in the province. The province of Quebec also paid a bonus on cheese. It has now ceased to pay that bonus. I cannot say whether the bonus was effective throughout the year 1945; it may have been paid until the end of the year, but it was known that the bonus on cheese was to be withdrawn, and there was an effort made by the farmers to get away from cheese production. This may explain the increase in butter production that has taken place in Quebec.
More butter is produced in Quebec than in any other province in the dominion. Quebec is essentially a butter-producing province.

Quebec hopes, and I trust not entirely in vain, that we are approaching an era when prices will cease to be fixed, when these controls will be released and when competition and orderly and unrestricted marketing will again be the vogue. The farmers of Quebec hope that the excellence of their product will bring them a decent return for their efforts.
Having stated these facts I wish to suggest to the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) and to the government that the ceiling price of butter be increased. I need not tell the minister that I believe that price-fixing of commodities has ceased to be useful. I believe it is baneful at the present time and I believe the Canadian farmer, particularly the Canadian dairyman, would be better off if he were freed from all restrictions and were able to enter a market in which he could buy and sell without restriction. But those ideal conditions do not yet obtain, and I am suggesting to the minister and to the government that the necessary changes be made in these ceiling prices to give the butter producer a fair return for his effort. At the present time the producer of butter is not receiving an equitable return for his product as compared with the producer of cheese. The producer of butter is not receiving a price which enables him to hire people to work for him.


Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: Why do you not pay wages in Quebec?


John Thomas Hackett: We are able to carry on our dairying industry in Quebec because our families are closely knit together and because the people there are not ashamed to work.


George Alexander Cruickshank: For nothing.


John Thomas Hackett: The wife and daughter and the son of the household are proud and willing to go into the barnyard to help the father milk the cows and do the other chores incidental to farm life.


George Alexander Cruickshank: They do that in all parts of Canada.


John Thomas Hackett: I ask the minister to
take these facts into consideration and to raise the price of butter, not just four cents as was suggested in one of the papers this morning. Twenty-cent cheese means sixty-cent butter. There is no reason why that price should not be paid pending the removal of ceiling prices.
I speak for an area the population of which is fifty per cent engaged in farming and fifty per cent engaged in industry. In other words, one-half the population of these eastern counties of which I speak are makers of butter while the other half are consumers

The Address-Mr. Hackett
of butter. I believe the purchasers realize that the farmer should have a fair return for his commodity. They realize, moreover, that if he does not get a fair return, butter *will become still more scarce. Butter is becoming scarce by reason of the dissipation and sale and export of the herds. Laudable as may be the minister's desire to win and keep the cheese market of Great Britain, I suggest that he should not do that by depriving the Canadian people of butter. They will have butter, and if it cannot be made in this country, they will import it.
I noticed this morning that in another place an hon. gentleman whose political faith is identical with that of the government in power-*


George Alexander Cruickshank: Oh, no, it is not.


John Thomas Hackett: *-and who is not unfriendly to the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner), brought in a bill under the heading "Dairy Industry" and told his house that he was seeking to amend the Dairy Industry Act whereby certain portions of that act which prohibited the manufacture, importation and sale of oleomargarine in Canada would be repealed. Now if it is government policy to force Canadians to eat oleomargarine-


George Alexander Cruickshank: Who said it was?


Gordon Graydon: Keep quiet, Sir Oleo.


John Thomas Hackett: -that it may export
cheese to Britain, I fear that the government will have to amend its policy or it will find itself with abundant leisure to think of other things. The Canadian people have a taste for butter.


Mr. GARDINER:: On a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, the manufacture or sale of oleomargarine has never been discussed by the government at any time to my knowledge within the ten years that I have been in the government. The present law was passed I think in 1922 and has remained that way ever since. It was brought in by the then Liberal government.


John Thomas Hackett: My hon. friend the Minister of Agriculture has made a statement but it is just possible that he is not entirely aware of all that is taking place within his party. The fact remains that there has been introduced by an outstanding member of his party in the upper house a bill to repeal those portions of the Dairy Industry Act which make it illegal to import oleomargarine into Canhda at a time when there is the greatest scarcity of butter that this country has ever known, and if that bill is not intro-63260-22
duced for the purpose of substituting oleo-mhrgarine for butter, then I do not understand that twice two makes four.


James Garfield Gardiner: I am sure that my hon. friend does not want to have a misrepresentation go out.


John Thomas Hackett: If my hon, friend wishes to ask a question I am willing to answer, but I have heard a number of interruptions and-


James Garfield Gardiner: If I may ask my hon. friend a question, does he know that the Prime Minister announced this morning to the Canadian Federation of Agriculture that the question had never been discussed by the government, and that the introduction of the measure referred to in the senate has nothing to do with government policy?


George Alexander Cruickshank: Hear, hear.


John Thomas Hackett: I was not aware of that, and I think it is unfortunate that-


The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr. Golding):: ,1 must ask hon. members to keep order. The hon. member for Stanstead (Mr. Hackett) has the floor, and hon. members have no right to interrupt him unless he permits a question to be asked. I hope that he will be given attention and will not be interrupted while he is speaking.


Gordon Graydon: He is touching a sensitive spot. That is why he is interrupted.


John Thomas Hackett: When hon. gentlemen on the other side become restless and begin to find their seats uncomfortable it is perhaps because they are being told things which remind them of past errors of policy and of the retribution, swift and inexorable, which followed.
The purpose of my remarks is to ask the Minister of Agriculture to raise the ceiling price of butter so that the owners of herds can continue to make butter and that they may have from the proceeds of the sale 'of that butter money sufficient to buy the' feed that is necessary to exploit their herds, money sufficient to clothe their children properly and send them to school, money sufficient to enable them to keep their herds instead of selling them, as they have been forced to do and are doing at an alarming rate.
The market in Britain is a good market, and I commend the minister for trying to secure it for Canada. But he can secure it only if he proceeds fairly, and he cannot be unfair to a considerable element of the agricultural population and hope to bring a benefit to the rest of Canada. If he destroys the butter-making element he will weaken the

The Address-Mr. Johnston

very industry that he is seeking to strengthen. If he permits the butter maker of Quebec to be squeezed out of existence, and forty cents a pound butter is doing it, he is' following a policy which is dangerous not only to the largest single element in our country, the farming element, but to the country as a whole.


Mr. C. E. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: Mr. Speaker, before the motion is put I wish to say a few words. It had not been my intention earlier in this debate to take part in it but rather to leave what I had to say to another occasion.


An hon. MEMBER:: Leave it.


Charles Edward Johnston: I heard somebody say "Leave it". The leaders of all the parties agreed to do that very thing, but every party except the Social Credit party broke that agreement, and some to a greater degree than others. I think the greatest betrayal of that agreement was by the Conservative party, but the Liberals shared in it, and now I see they are applauding themselves. But that is not the point of my argument this afternoon. I want to deal with several matters, and I am glad the Minister of Veterans Affairs (Mr. Mackenzie) is in his seat, because later I shall address some remarks particularly to him.
First of all I wish to warn the house of the gradually increasing number of unemployed throughout Canada. Particularly is this so in the part of the country I come from, the west. Just before I left Calgary the unemployment register roll in that city was well nigh the 5,000 mark-and this represented people who were registered as unemployed, not counting the vast numbers of unemployed of whom there was no record. The same is true of Edmonton and of all the other cities in the west; in fact there are thousands of unemployed throughout the country, and this at a time when Canada's government is boasting that it is doing so much in an all-out production effort.
It is only a matter of months now since we had everyone employed. True, they were wearing uniforms, but the government promised them that no time would be lost in converting from war-time to peace-time production. I saw in the papers not long ago that the Minister of Reconstruction (Mr. Howe) had stated it would be only a few weeks until we would be again short of man-power. I fancy he will have to do a good deal of miraculous work and planning if he expects

to be able to take up the great lag in unemployment which is increasing so rapidly across Canada.
Not only is this true among the civilian workers in war production plants who have been laid off and are now finding it impossible to get any jobs, but it is true of the veterans themselves. Many veterans in Calgary have come to me appealing for jobs, but I do not know where there are any jobs to be got. We cannot find them.


Mr. SINNOTT:: There are lots of farm jobs.


Charles Edward Johnston: Yes, but some of you farmers, not all I am glad'to say, hardly pay help sufficient to maintain what might be called a decent standard of living.


John Sylvester Aloysius Sinnott: You cannot get men at $100 a month to-day.


Charles Edward Johnston: I do not know many who would refuse $100 a month. But that does not solve the problem of the increasing number of unemployed, and it was the hon. gentleman's party who went about the country hanging up great yellow posters-yes, they were yellow-on every telephone pole saying, "Jobs for all", and they were going to maintain the standard of pay which prevailed during the war years. The responsibility rests upon the Liberal party and other parties who advocated jobs for all. Let me tell the hon. member that it was the Social Credit party alone who told the people definitely, although it was not a popular thing to say at election time, that we knew there would not be jobs for all under the present set-up. There is no guessing about this. The facts are there; they speak for themselves. I have the posters upstairs in my desk.
One other thing which I think should be called to the attention of the government is the ever-increasing burden of taxes and the cost of living. We members in the house- and I make no apology for this, nor did I apologize for it anywhere in my constituency -voted ourselves an increase of $2,000. When I was asked about it in my constituency I made no bones about it at all. I told the people that I was one of those who did vote for the increase. It has been our policy as Social Crediters, ever since we have been in the house, to do everything possible to increase the standard of living of every Canadian. We have persistently and consistently throughout the years fought for increased living standards for all, and when we ourselves had the opportunity to give ourselves an increase-and some of us really needed it-we voted for it. It behooves every

The Address-Mr. Johnston
member of the house, therefore, to see to it, and at this session is the opportune time, that other people in Canada, especially those in the low income brackets, have some relief from the present tremendous taxation.
I suggest, and it has been suggested by other members of our party as well as members in other parts of the house, that the income tax exemption be $2,000 for married persons and $1,200 for single. That would be a step in the right direction.
The government seems to have forgotten that agricultural workers are the backbone of industry in this country. During the war years, however, the farmers have not shared in the profits which other industries have enjoyed. Indeed, they shared very little in increased prices until quite recently, and now the government comes along, when there is a chance for agriculture to participate in some small measure in any advantages there may be, and deliberately increases the cost of production by adding another cost in the price of gasoline. The farmers in my constituency are greatly perturbed by the increased cost of gasoline and white products generally, because, without any question, that raises the cost of production for the farmer. When they look across the border and see that the farmer there can purchase machinery at prices considerably less than those charged for the same machinery in Canada, made by the same companies and distributed by their agents in this country; when they see that our people have to pay twice the price, our farmers do not feel well about it. One cannot wonder at their uneasiness.
It has been suggested by the members of this party and by others that the government remove that three per cent war tax on gasoline. That would bring the price down for the benefit not only of farmers in the west but of the people generally throughout Canada. It would be 'a step in the right direction. I have here a resolution which I should like to put on the record because I know that many other members have received similar resolutions. It will give the house and the people of eastern Canada some idea of what the farmers of the west have to contend with in the way of increased costs of production. A copy of this resolution was sent to the Prime Minister:
Whereas there is to be an increase of two cents a gallon on the price of gasoline, effective March 18, 1946, and
Whereas this action on the part of the federal government will affect the farmers of Alberta in their cost of production and also the cost in all other services rendered by business _ to the farmer throughout the country, which will ultimately result in a further increased cost to the primary producer, and
Whereas we do believe the remedy could be effected in the removal of the federal tax of three cents.
Therefore the Langdon, Alberta, farmers union and the Langdon United Farmers of Alberta at a recent meeting held
Resolved that a fact-finding board be set up by federal and provincial governments to investigate into records of all oil producers, manufacturers and distributors of white products to determine whether any increase in price is justified at this time.
I think there is a great deal of merit in that resolution. A fact-finding board should be set up, in the form of a commission, to find out whether it is necessary to have increased prices in gasoline. The meeting referred to in the resolution was no small affair. There were delegates from all parts of the district. There were over 92 persons present, and the resolution represents not the feeling of a local community but the feeling of quite a large area. And the same feeling prevails generally throughout Canada.
I stated a little while ago that I should have a few words to say to the Minister of Veterans, Affairs. May I say that the minister has been very considerate in regard to conditions affecting the returned man. He has done about as good a job as any Liberal could do; in fact he is about as good a Liberal as there is.
I wish to refer to the general housing situation. Quite a few members have spoken about housing, but not from the point of view to which I wish to address myself. It has been pointed out that the housing situation is becoming desperate across the country. We all know that. When Wiartime Housing first started two or three years ago I spoke on this question because I visited Wartime Housing in Hull, and afterwards I spoke in the house with regard to things I had actually seen. Under Wartime Housing, houses were built in Hull which were a shame and a disgrace and a waste of public money. On that occasion I pointed out to the house that I had seen several 'houses in Hull the outside walls of which were falling away from the foundation. You could stick your hand between the inside partition in the house and the outside wall. I pointed that out because I had actually seen it in many houses in that city. The floors had warped to such an extent that you could not get in through the kitchen door from the outside. The door could not be opened. There was hardly a door in the whole house that could be properly opened and closed.


An hon. MEMBER:: Ontario lumber.


Charles Edward Johnston: No, Quebec results and Liberal policy.


An hon. MEMBER:: Warped.
63260-22J
The Address-Mr. Johnston


Charles Edward Johnston: They were a little warped -I mean the houses.


Mr. MacNICOL:: And the policy.


Charles Edward Johnston: This is not new to the government because they have been fully informed in regard to it. One would think, sir, that having heard about these things the government would have at least sent out a competent and responsible inspector to see if the statements were correct, and immediately stopped any such practices. But this was not done.
It has been admitted by the government that under the national housing scheme 27,000 houses have been built and under Wartime Housing, 16,000. These houses have been completed and are occupied. As I said last year, I have no great complaint to make about the national housing scheme. I have carefully watched construction from the laying of the foundations to the time the families moved in. I have visited the homes after the families moved in, and I must say that under the national housing scheme the government has done a fairly good job. The material is satisfactory, the workmanship has been well done, and the people are satisfied. But that was done by private contractors, and the individual was allowed free choice of his own contractor. He was permitted to get the design that he required and to go ahead with his house. The government did not assist 'him with any gifts; it was merely a loan which the recipient had to repay at a rate of interest.
Under the two plans the government has built 43,000 houses. We have no indication of how many veterans' houses have been built. At the appropriate time the Minister of Veterans Affairs may tell us how many veterans' houses have been built.


Mr. MACKENZIE:: Twenty-sevep hundred.


Charles Edward Johnston: Last year the department announced that some fifty new homes would be ready for occupancy a few months ago in Calgary. When I left I believe eighteen were occupied. The minister knows that the veterans in Calgary are decidedly -dissatisfied with the conditions of affairs there; he knows it because he has been informed. An organization of veterans was formed in Calgary and the different members of parliament invited to attend meetings. Meetings have been held regularly and I have attended all of them. On different occasions the government inspector has been there. We fiave gone over the problem thoroughly and I am sure that the minister must have been informed by his own representatives of the condition of affairs. If he has not, it is time he removed some of his

officials. May I say that he should start in with some of the inspectors, as I shall indicate as I go along
These houses are costing the veterans a considerable amount of money. When you compare their cost with the cost of the national housing scheme there is not a great deal of difference. I have one house particularly in mind which cost a veteran $5,400, and also a national housing house, just a few blocks away, which cost $6,000. The basement alone of the national housing house is worth the whole of the veteran's house. The veteran's house is going to fall apart in six months. If a good windstorm comes up it will not be there at all; it will look as if an atomic bomb hit it. Five thousand dollars odd is a large sum of money for the type of house the veteran is getting. The houses are valued at too high a figure. The sum of $4,000 is the maximum that should have been paid by the veteran for the house to which I have referred. I can point to dozens of houses that have been privately built in Calgary under the same conditions-better houses by far, and they have not cost $5,400. But I shall refer to that a little later.
To-day I want to take the members of the house and the minister on a visit to these veterans' homes. I am going to confine my visit to Calgary, because I know it is typical of all veterans' houses throughout Canada; I cannot see why it would be different. First of all, let us look at the basements of these veterans' houses. As I said at the beginning, I have watched these houses from the time the basement was dug until the families moved in. Some of the veterans have been in them for three mofiths. I want to be fair; there may be an explanation for this, but out of the eighteen houses that are occupied by veterans in Calgary there may be one or two in which the cement floors and walls have not cracked; in every other case the walls and floors are cracking. The federal government inspector who should inspect these buildings told me that they had put in five bags of cement to the yard in the walls and six bags of cement in the floor. It was a four inch floor. I wish fo address these remarks to the minister through you, Mr. Speaker. Either the inspector is lying or the veterans have taken a bad trimming in the amount of cement that was put into the walls, because no cement wall eight inches thick and no cement floor four inches thick that has - five or six bags of cement to the yard, and the proper proportions of sand and gravel, would ever crack in the manner in which these walls and floors have cracked. The walls and floors are the very foundation upon which the whole house

The Address-Mr. Johnston
is being built. I know enough about cement work to know that there is some funny work somewhere. I say to the minister, through you, sir, that somebody is doing some dirty work somewhere, and when this dirty work is passed on to these veterans it is about time something was done about it.
Let us start with the cement floor. Remember, all these buildings have been inspected and accepted by the federal government inspector. Where his eyes were when he did that, I do not know; they were not in his head. As to the plumbing in the basement, one can go along and take hold of a water pipe and shake it all over. The pipes were not even fastened properly to the joists in the building. In many cases they were leaking. Instead of using galvanized pipe, as I presume the specifications called for, in connecting up the hot water tank, they used ordinary gas pipe. I have not seen the specifications; that may be permissible, but I doubt it very much.
The drain in the basement floor was an inch to an inch and a half above the cement. That meant that when the wife went to do the washing, and drained the washing machine, a great puddle of water lay on the floor which could not be drained out. Had the inspector been there and been doing the job for which he was paid-and paid well, I suppose-he would have tripped over the thing'and probably wakened himself up. I do not think he was ever there; he could not have been, to permit such a thing.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Would my hon. friend be kind enough to tell me exactly where this house is?


Charles Edward Johnston: Yes; I will do that later.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I should like to know, because I want to follow it up.


Charles Edward Johnston: Yes, I will do that.
I mentioned to the government last year the material which was going into the veterans' houses. We are still in the basement of this house. I pointed out to the minister that 2 by 8 spruce- joists were used, and that they would not hold up under conditions "as we have them in the west. Nor will they hold up under conditions as you have them in the east. Right over in Hull you have had evidence of that, when houses, built practically of the same material, went to pieces. I pointed this out to the government, but nothing was done.
A beam runs across through the basement to carry the middle weight of the house. When the .joists are laid they are supposed to be long enough to double over the beam; everybody knows that. But in some of these houses the joists do not even reach the beam;
they are spliced in, and the weight comes entirely on the nails. You cannot expect a house so constructed to stand, and it will not stand. As I pointed out to the minister last year, the spruce joists fastened together with one or two spikes where they come across on the beam are coming apart. The result is that the floor above is sagging; it could not be otherwise. The bridgings down in the basement holding the joists were 1 by 2 strips of spruce nailed with 2-inch nails. I told the government that they would not hold up, that as soon as these narrow strips dried out you could pull the nails out with your fingers; and that is exactly what is happening. There is hardly one of these small bridgings which you cannot pull off with one or two fingers; the joists are twisted, and the house is going to be twisted as well. If this happens after they have been occupied for only two or three months, what is going to happen when the heat strikes them at 110 degrees in the shade?


John Ritchie MacNicol: Have these houses passed inspection?


Charles Edward Johnston: Yes, they have all been passed by the government inspector. I shall refer to that government inspector a little later.
I have not seen the specifications of these houses. I think there are different specifications for each house. But the city by-law definitely prohibits the use of anything less than a 2 by 2 for bridging, yet the government has put in 1 by 2 spruce.
Let me now take you up to the first floor of one of these houses. Incidentally, in walking up to the first floor one of the men fell through the stairs. He did not trip, either. I should like to give the minister a picture of these houses that our veterans have to live in; and may I tell him that their wives are not very well satisfied when for twenty-four hours a day they have to live in these places. Imagine a wife who is doing her washing and drains the washing machine and finds the basement floor filled with water, which will not run off. It is not a very pleasant situation to be in.
We are now on the first floor, the main floor. As hon. members know, these walls are 4 by 8 sheets of plaster board. Plaster board is something like gyproc lap, but in larger sheets, and if you use small headed nails in putting on the plaster boards they will not hold. Some of these nails have small heads, others have larger heads, but the type of head used was the small-headed nail, the very poorest one which could be chosen, with the result that the boards are loose on the.

The Address-Mr. Johnston
walls and in a great many cases have to be gone over and renailed. I never, Mr. Speaker, saw such a miserably poor job of workmanship. It is possible to have a nicely finished room by using plaster "board, and I have seen houses in which it has been used, where the joints have been properly cemented before the tape was put over, and sanded down, and after painting the joint is completely invisible. But in these houses you could look clear across the place and see the joint as clearly as you could see the wall, right through the paint. All across the ceiling you can see these joints running clear across. Imagine the wife of a veteran who is entertaining her friends in the evening, with these big strips of tape running across the wall. One finds that throughout the house. It is faulty workmanship, not faulty material in this case. The joists in the basement were faulty material, and the government was responsible for them; what I am speaking of now is a matter of faulty workmanship. But the government is responsible, because it should know the contractor to whom it let the contracts for these buildings, and the inspector who passed them.
Where the walls come to the corner it is usual in all well-built houses to have a metal bead running down the corner. In these houses instead of having metal bead they have a 2 by 2 spruce on the edges of the partition. The 2 by 2-1 am speaking now generally of the finish-was never sanded off when it was painted; it was furry before it was put up, and when it is painted in that condition you cannot remedy it without sandpapering all the paint off. There was no attempt to finish up the cheap material used in the comers .in this building instead of metal beads.
The doors are not properly hung. Hardly a door is properly hung. On one occasion when they came to repair these buildings they put pasteboard behind the hinges to even things up around the door, but the gap is still there. It was faulty1 workmanship, but still the inspector passed it.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Is this the same
house?


Charles Edward Johnston: No. I have visited
several.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: How many?


Charles Edward Johnston: I would say I have visited half a dozen of the eighteen, but those who were at these meetings told me that conditions were almost the same in all these houses.


John Sylvester Aloysius Sinnott: I think you would make a good inspector.


Charles Edward Johnston: I could do better than that; there is no question about it. Even the hon. member himself could, I think. He has a fine house, I understand.
Now let us go to the flooring. The floor was supposed to be No. 1 edge grain flooring. Edge grain flooring has no knots in it. This is not No. 1 edge grain fir flooring, yet the veteran is paying for it. I remember one house in particular when the inspector was present and the man who owned this house was complaining about the knots in the floor right in the front part of the room. He said he did not know how that could be; and one of the other fellows said, "Well, if you recall, when you inspected the house it was covered with paper." I said to the inspector, "Did you not raise this paper when you went in to inspect the building for the government?"- and he said he had not. How can a government inspector go through a house and inspect floors that are covered with paper-even looking at them? That is something no woman wants in her front room-knots all over the floor. The veteran was paying for No. 1 material, but he did not get it.
Let us go upstairs-but be careful of your head, because you will have it bumped. That is the government's fault, the architect's fault. I am not a tall man, but I know the minister would have to get- down on his knees to go up there.


Gordon Graydon: It would do him no harm.


Charles Edward Johnston: No, it would not. He should get down and pray for these poor veterans who have got such a fleecing. Now, that is the architect's fault. I do not blame the contractor for it, because I imagine it was that way in his specifications.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Who was the contractor? I do not know where the house was.


Charles Edward Johnston: If you want me to name it-Bennett and White.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Where is the house?


Charles Edward Johnston: In Calgary.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Calgary is a big place.


Charles Edward Johnston: It is a fine place; you ought to come out there. Now, that was the main staircase going upstairs. One has to duck his dead as he goes up. That is not a very satisfactory state of affairs, 'as the minister will no doubt agree. However, I shall not prolong this phase of the matter.

The Address-Mr. Johnston
I want to say something about windows. Here I am not blaming the contractor so much as I am the government. When the windows were put into these houses they were fitted for sash cords and weights, and ploughed out for that purpose. But when those windows were installed, no sash cords or weights were put in, nor was there provision made for it. The windows were already ploughed, and as a result when the wind blows it goes right up both sides of the window and simply blows out the curtains. As anyone knows, with the wind blowing in like that, and blowing the curtains, it is not a very satisfactory state of affairs.
I am skipping over quite a bit of the detail, because my time is limited. I do wish to speak about heating. It will be understood that as I go along I am picking out the major items. If I were to deal with all the minor items it would take a very long time.
The heating is a gravity system. When it comes to the first floor, the registers are in the wall. That is the proper place for them. But the cold air vents are on the floor, and they are placed out about ten inches from the wall. They are oblong in shape, about ten inches wide and about sixteen inches long, fitting in between the joists. There are wooden slats across them, and those slats are about one-quarter inch by li inches, and sixteen inches long. There they are, sitting I was about to say, almost in the middle of the floor, ten inches from the wall; and if a person came in there and put his chair in that part of the room it would go right down through the floor. Besides, it is a regular dirt trap. One cannot put chairs in the vicinity, because someone would fall through it-a very unsatisfactory condition. The wooden grills should have been put in the wall.
When one goes upstairs he finds that the hot-air vents are placed in the floors. These are just metal grates, not fastened down in any way. All the dirt falls down into them. The children could very easily throw articles in there-in fact they could even get in themselves. The hot-air vents should have been in the wall. It would have cost practically no more to put them in the proper place than to stick them out in the middle of the room, as they are now. These are conditions which should be rectified.
I did a little estimating on this house, which cost $5,400, and I do not think I am far out. I have estimated the plumbing at $400.


Gordon Graydon: How many rooms?


Charles Edward Johnston: Five or six; I am not just sure which. An ordinary plumbing job for such a house would cost about $475, but I
think the government would get it for a little less than that, and for that reason I cut it down to $400. The city works section would cost about $400, and the lumber about $1,600.
I have made that figure a maximum, because I do not think it should cost more than that for the type of house in question. That would make a total of $2,400, and to this should be added the carpentry work as the remaining cost item, approximately $3,000 for the carpentry work on those houses. I say a contractor has no right to receive $3,000 for building a house of that kind. It is entirely too much money; $2,000 would be enough. And for that he should do a good job.
Someone will say, "Oh, well; they have to pay high wages." They are not paying high wages. When it comes to the matter of having skilled workers to build a house, I say one does not have to have all skilled workers. All one needs to build a house, and to build it properly, is to have one or two good carpenters. The rest can be nail drivers. In this way one can build a first-class house, in first-class condition. There is no scarcity of labour in that regard.


Mr. TUSTIN:: Had the house a basement?


Charles Edward Johnston: Yes, this house had a basement. Another complaint I have is that these contractors are getting approximately $3,000 for the carpenter work, and the government supplies the material; then they sublet contracts for laying floors, putting on lath, etc.
When I refer to floors there is something further I should add. I have been skipping along so fast that I have been leaving out important details. In laying the upstairs floors they laid the spruce lumber groove to groove and tongue to tongue-and that was passed by a government inspector. In the kitchen they put down first-class battleship linoleum over the spruce floors. Of course the spruce shrunk, and the linoleum drew in, with the result that there is a quarter of an inch space down the middle of the kitchen. Adjustments have had to be made in these things. In fact they sent a carpenter up there at extra expense to the government, because the contractor got extra for this.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Was the inspector one of those dollar-a-year men, or how was he paid for inspecting?


Charles Edward Johnston: The hon. member will have to ask the minister that question. I do not think he is working for a dollar a year. I think he is a Liberal.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Does the hon. member know that?


Gordon Graydon: It sounds like it.
The Address-Mr. Johnston


Charles Edward Johnston: I think it is a wrong
practice to permit the contractor to sublet his contracts for laying floors, putting on plaster board, or putting on this or that. He sublets for shingling, for flooring, and for this or that.
This procedure of building veterans' houses or war-time houses on a mass production basis is wrong. We give a contract for 300 or 400 houses to one man, and then he starts to build the houses on' a mass scale, subletting this and subletting that. Why not let them out to private contractors who will do the job under proper and decent conditions? Why should not a man have some say about the house he is to live in, or have some supervision over its construction, especially when he has to pay for it? Surely he should have something to say about it.
What are we going to do to rectify these unsatisfactory conditions? My estimate is-* and I do not think I am far wrong-that it will cost from $500 to $1,000 more to condition these houses so that they will be at all passable, and so that veterans can live in them.
1 believe, as I have said, that it will cost the government from $500 to $1,000 more to put these houses into such condition that they can be lived in. And even when that much has been spent, still we shall not have proper houses, because as soon as the heat strikes in the summer the damage will continue. The men who have bought these houses should be permitted to have new ones. I do not think they should be asked to live in these places. The government should immediately stop building houses with spruce. Of course they contend that there is a shortage of material, but I would rather have one good house built than two poor ones, and I would rather have one veteran satisfied with his home than have two dissatisfied. I do not think we would be so short of material if we stopped shipping out the best of our materials to other countries. Let us keep some here to build houses for these men whom just a few short months ago we were calling great heroes-, whom just a few short months ago we were meeting with bands, for whom just a few short months ago we had signs up in the stations, "Welcome home, boys." Then we give them one of these houses. That is not good enough.
The government should do everything possible to remedy these conditions, and I am sure the minister will, now that the matter has been brought to his attention. Proper precautions should be taken. These veterans should not be told, and I know they would not be told by the minister, what was told

to the chairman of this committee by a government representative: The chairman of this committee was told, "You can either take it or get out." I said to them, "Don't be afraid of his kicking you out, because I know the Minister of Veterans Affairs will not stand for anything like that." Maybe I was speaking out of turn, but I do not think so.
That is not the way to talk to these men. All they want is satisfaction. They want something for the money they are paying, because they feel that they have earned their gratuities. They feel that they have some right to fair treatment. I hope the minister will take this matter under advisement and have an immediate check made of these things. Efforts should be made to see that these men are satisfied and that they have houses to which their wives and families will not be ashamed to bring their friends.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: In order to carry out the request made by my hon. friend, will he kindly tell me the exact location of the house in question?


Charles Edward Johnston: I have not the exact address, but I will give it to the minister.


Mr. TUCKER:: What did the veteran pay for the house?


Charles Edward Johnston: 



S5.400.

Mr. BLACKMORE:: That is plenty.


Charles Edward Johnston: These conditions are not applicable to just one house. I know of another man, and I am not going to tell you his politics although I think the minister would be pleased if I did. Before this man felt he could move in he spent over S250 out of his own pocket to finish the house. He did a fairly good job, but they dare not put a piano in the house because the floor now looks like a camel's back.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Is that the same house?


Charles Edward Johnston: No, it is a different one.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: In the same location?


Charles Edward Johnston: Yes, it is the same location, up on North Hill, where veterans' houses are being built in Calgary.


Walter Adam Tucker: Is the hon. member sure that those houses were built under the land act administration?


Charles Edward Johnston: Oh, yes. Mr. Finlater is one of the inspectors and Mr. Turner is the other. Bennett and White were the contractors.

The Address-Mr. Bryce


Mr. HARKNESS:: That is the small holdings development?


Charles Edward Johnston: That is right, out at North Hill.


Mr. WILLIAM BRYCE (Selkirk):: Mr. Speaker, I have refrained from taking part in this debate because I was one of the lesser lights who went to the continent this year and I was waiting until the greater lights had had their say. I was greatly taken with what I saw there. I was interested in what the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) had to say the other day. He finished his remarks with these words, which will be found on page 97 of Hansard:
One found a condition there which gave one a certain impression. I came away from Paris feeling that I had seen a very dejected people, a people who were suffering because of need, a people who were not properly clothed, a people who required a great deal of sympathy >and care from those of us outside.
I had intended to demonstrate the benefits I had derived from my visit to France by speaking in French, but there are so few of my French-speaking friends here this afternoon that I am just going to stick to my own doric. No person can understand or realize what the French people have gone through. Perhaps those members on both sides of the house who' fought over the Normandy beaches, up through Falaise, Caen, Amiens and right on through know what it is like because they were through the worst of it. We must remember that when we were not in France, the Germans were. These people were bombed incessantly. If the Germans were not bombing them, we were. This put us in a rather awkward position. We would meet people who had lost legs and arms and naturally we would say, "How did you lose your leg?" or "How did you lose your arm?" A man might reply, "Well, one of your airmen came over one night."
I want hon. members to realize that these people have suffered as no other nation has suffered. England and Scotland also suffered, but they are taking it right on the chin. Hon. members have no idea of how they are taking it. I went to my native city and they said, "We were not damaged at all," but in two nights Jerry destroyed 4,500 homes. Still they said they were not damaged. Then we hear members in this House of Commons say that [DOT] we should not lend them money to help them get back on their feet or reinstate themselves. Those hon. members just do not understand because they have not had an opportunity to see like the hon. member for Peel (Mr. Graydon), the hon. member for Lisgar (Mr. Winkler), the hon. member for Winnipeg
North Centre (Mr. Knowles) and other hon. members. We saw the terrible conditions
that exist.
In Paris I saw people line up at seven o'clock in the morning to try to get food. This was not in front of the Ritz either. I stayed at the Ritz to see what it was like.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Where did you get all the money?


William Scottie Bryce: I travelled with a Conservative. I saw those poor people standing in line waiting with their coupons for bread. They would wait until ten or half-past ten o'clock and then they would be told, "No bread to-day." We neker had anything like that. The nearest they got to us was the St. Lawrence river. We should be ready to go down on our knees and thank these people for what they saved us from. Our boys and girls went there and did their part, but we folk at home never knew what was going on.
When you speak to the British people they will tell you that they have plenty of food, that they never wanted' for anything at all. I have in my hand a book entitled, "Dainty Dishes for ths Queen." This contains 160 recipes for dishes made out of oatmeal and potatoes.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That is good Scotch food.


William Scottie Bryce: I know we have big men like the Minister of Veterans Affairs (Mr. Mackenzie) who have been raised on meal and potatoes, but believe me that gets pretty monotonous, and that is what is going on in the old country to-day. I make this plea to everyone who has friends in the old country: Send them a parcel, for they will appreciate it. I had the pleasure, with other members of this house, of seeing people over there receive parcels from Canada, and they were just like kids around a Christmas tree. They were so pleased to get something different from what they usually had. We were in places in France where, when we .got up in the morning, we could get no breakfast and had to drive to the next town before we could get anything to eat. That is a deplorable state of affairs. When we did get a good meal and asked how that came about, the answer was that the food was procured in the black market.
France is up against a problem which no other country in the world faces to-day. For the last five or six years French boys in their teens, from fifteen up to twenty, have been trained in the underground movement to believe that they were heroes if they killed a German or disrupted the then government service. Now they have a government of their own, but they do not yet icalize that it is
33S
The Address-Mr. Bryce


Mr. MacINNIS:: Coming through the rye.


William Scottie Bryce: The argument put up by these gentlemen who speculate in futures is the future market. I have the figures here, showing that on December 7, 1945, there were visible in Canada 1,442,000 bushels, and on February 1, 1946, there were 1,458,000 bushels, or 16,000 bushels more on the futures market. We are told that when there is less the price should go up and when there is more the price should go down. But here the price jumped from 81.81^ to S2.29L This Liberal government sends representatives to a food conference with the idea of feeding the world, and it will pay a farmer ninety cents or $1 for his rye and then allow these fellows to gamble in the commodity, while the poor man who has to turn it into bread pays 82.60 a bushel for it. One wonders how people can do such things. If it is good for wheat, oats and barley to be under the control of the wheat board, then the same arguments apply to rye.
I do not know whether I have made that argument strong enough, but I feel that this is one of the greatest injustices the government has done to the common man, because the man who produces rye produces it in the poorest ground. Up in the interlake country where there is nothing but sand they will grow rye, and some of the most underpaid people in the world eat rye bread to-day; yet the government will allow these privileged few to gamble in the produce of the farmer. There is no place in the modern world for gambling in food.
I have some other things I wish to discuss but perhaps I have said enough for the present. However, I will say this to the government. We need live stock legislation to protect the farmer, just as we need a wheat board. You can call it anything you like. I am not fussy about the name. When I made the proposal before, I called it a board of live stock commissioners, and it was suggested that it might not be legal. Well, the members of this government have enough brains to get over such technicalities, if they want to use those brains. I hope they will use them and give us a live stock marketing board to protect the farmer, because he will need that protection.
There have been great changes over the last thirty years. We no longer market our produce in a haphazard way. If you want quality and you establish grades, then I submit that the farmers should be given some say
The Address-Mr. Pouliot

in the fixing of those grades. It is absolutely necessary that they should have representation on any board. I am not suggesting that the, packer is not also entitled to representation on it, as well as the consumer and all others concerned. But let everyone be represented on the board.


Mr. JEAN FRANCOIS POULIOT (Temis-couata):: In the first place I congratulate the two hon. members who have just spoken; and I will remind the latter that the late King George once admonished the Prince of Wales because he had been speculating in grain. The teachings of the king were to the same effect as the speech of my hon. friend, that there should be no speculation in grain and especially in rye because it is a kind of grain that is just as good to drink as to eat.
We need some reform in this country; we need reform in a. broad spirit; but all those who desire to obtain reform must realize in advance that they will get no place, to use slang language, unless they have the determination to suffer slander, insult and abuse for the good cause. That was my experience. Yesterday I received a clipping of a dirty sheet that is published at noontime in Montreal. I shall read it in a moment, but before I read it I shall make a correction in Hansard. At page 220 I am reported as having said, speaking of Colonel Bovey:
The mai) who makes molasses peaches . . .
I never said that. I did not say that he had received pay as one of the 140 who make preserved peaches, but I said that he was making molasses speeches, sticky speeches for his own benefit. That is what I said and afterwards I complained of McGill university being a red house. By the same mail I received a clipping from the Gazette of March 19 with the picture of Tim Buck addressing the students of McGill, and the gentleman wrote me a very fine letter which I will send to my hon. friend the leader of the Social Credit group (Mr. Low) who stated a few truths that were denied by Principal James.
By the same mail I received an editorial of that dirty sheet. I shall read one paragraph. I have some other excerpts from newspapers which I shall read later on:
Montreal, Wednesday, March 27, 1946.
Something has been added' to the "hotbed of communism" charges levelled at McGill by -Solon Low-endorsation from the lips of J. F. Pouliot, M.P.
Most- Canadians are familiar with Mr. Pouliot's near perfect record for inaugurating and supporting groundless accusations, designed to increase disunity and embarrass governments and institutions.
Only that; that is all I have to say about that remark. I will not say it is inspired 
by anyone, but I prescribe a triple dose of castor oil to the writer of this editorial and a similar one to Colonel Bovey. That is my. potion.
I shall draw the attention of the members of the house to the fact that one thing has been said for the public good by the leader of the Social Credit group and I have repeated it in asking for. some reform. Instead of securing any reform, we get abuse from a paper which is inspired by the very man. of whom we complain, because they give the wrong information to us; that is all. My hon. friend was the victim of some abuse and so was I. I am far from suffering from the mania of persecution; but I wish to point out that nothing will be accomplished unless all members of parliament have the triple armour of steel around their breasts to defy all the iniquitous persons whom we may meet on the way to reform.
That is my first point, and I have other incidents. There is a young man who lived for a time in the Saguenay district, lake St. John. He was the public relations officer of a big company. He gave false news and led the cabinet and a minister into error. That man never corrected himself. He is now in the eastern townships in charge of a paper. When I received very great honour he wrote this article which appeared in the Sherbrooke Record of February 4, 1946:
In many quarters Mr. Pouliot is regarded as rather irresponsible and as something of a firebrand.
Afterwards he said that apparently it was right, but there was some insult and innuendo in his article. It was the old story, that one cannot complain of any parasite, profiteer, pirate, highway robber or thief without having bad motives. One must have bad motives, no manners at all. What has happened? Of course, I never belonged to the army, but I was described in my constituency last December as a friend of the draftees and the soldiers alike, friend of both. They gave me a dinner and presented me with a brand new car, which is something that is appreciated, because it is the only county where it has been done. It has been done for my provincial mate. Before that, it was done only for one other member of parliament, Sir Wilfrid Laurier, who had a big square automobile in the old days. It is something that touched me very deeply.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It would touch anybody.


Jean-François Pouliot: Yes. I hope that the constituents of my hon. friend give him the finest limousine because he deserves it.

The Address-Mr. Pouliot
I come now to the Victoria Cross. I am interested in the recipients of this medal and when I spoke about the McGill students I mentioned that. Your Honour did something for one of the winners which is merited, but it is not enough. However, Your Honour did more for him than anyone else had done. The press took it up and! it was reported in the papers of Victoria. I received word from another hero in British Columbia who had received the Victoria Cross from the hands of our king during the first war. By the way, he was the first officer of the Canadian army to receive the Victoria Cross, and he passed above the heads of everybody in British Columbia, above the heads of all members of parliament, even those who had a very fine war record, even above the head of the legion, to send an S.O.S. to Jean Francois Pouliot in lower Quebec. I consider it a very great honour and, to be just and fair, I will say that the minister is doing his best to fix up this case, with the assistance of his most valuable parliamentary assistant. It is something which touches one, that a hero of the last war, who has been abandoned by all, goes far away, thousands of miles from his district, to get in touch with one who is ready to fight for him. I took up his case, and at the same time that the newspapers said that apparently it was worthy of consideration, they said of me, "In many quarters Mr. Pouliot is regarded as rather irresponsible and as something of a firebrand." Those who are afraid to be called names by such a nonentity will obtain no reform; and I tell my colleagues, for whom I have great respect, that if they want any reform in this country they have only one thing to do, namely, not to be afraid to say what they believe is right and what they believe is for a good purpose.
There is something else; and I come to the crucial point. Last year hon. gentlemen who listened to me will remember how difficult it was to unearth the amount of money which was earned by the firm of Borden and Company in Toronto. How many times did I rise in the house to ask for that information? I was told that everything that was earned by the firm was returned to the government in a mood of sacrifice and generosity on the altar of the country.


An hon. MEMBER:: You believed that, of course ?


Jean-François Pouliot: I did not believe it at all, and (that is why I asked the question. I asked for copies of the cheques which had been sent for the amounts of moneys received. It was no insult; it was a matter of fact, that the man who- was there in the department was looking after his own interests. What did the Globe and Mail say about the member for Temiscouata? I cannot complain very much about the Globe and Mail; I have much more respect for it than for the Sherbrooke Record and for the other dirty sheet which is published in Montreal. I have had great respect for the Globe and Mail since the days of Harry Anderson, who was a dear friend of mine.


John Ritchie MacNicol: He was a very fine man.


Jean-François Pouliot: Certainly. My hon. friend knows I had the honour of being amongst Mr. Anderson's friends; and when his picture was unveiled for the press gallery I was one of the very few members who, along with the then Prime Minister, Mr. Bennett, the present Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King), and the hon. member for Broadview (Mr. Church), were invited there. I appreciated that very much. I had and I still have very good friends in the province of Ontario. But what I say about the Globe and Mail is what Poujoulat, a great French author, said of Cardinal Richelieu:
Le cardinal m'a fait trop de bien pour que j'en dise d'u mal; le cardinal m'a fait trop de mal pour que j'en dise du bien.
That is, "The cardinal has done too much good to me for me to speak badly of him, and he has done too much evil for me to say anything good about him." But I will say something nevertheless; and I will read what has been written about me in the Toronto Globe and Mail to humiliate me. That was the purpose, but it was not realized, because I have the skin of a crocodile. Nevertheless the purpose was to humiliate me, to abuse me, to treat me with insult, to make me suffer humiliation. Here it is:
A malicious attack.
Imagine; a man who is malicious, a man who wants to do harm to someone! I am astonished that the title was not "a blasphemous attack". It should have been, because down there they still believe in the golden calf. There are some in Toronto, as there are in Montreal and other places.
Mr. Jean Francoi-s Pouliot staged in the House of Commons on Wednesday another of his many deplorable performances -as -a public mischief-maker.
That is inoffensive!
Some time ago he tried to tarnish the reputation of Mr. Henry Borden, K.C., by suggesting that, 'as legal adviser for the Department of Munitions and Supply during the war years, Mr. Borden had used his position for the advantage of his private law practice.
The Address-Mr. Pouliot

What an abomination!
-Munitions Minister Howe, Hinder whom Mr. Borden served, came to his defence with a categorical denial of Mr. Pouliot's defamatory charges.
You see, I am there portrayed as slinging mud at such a distinguished and sane person as Henry Borden. Mark you, there is nothing infamous in a man looking after his office when he has a very fat job in the government, giving him the opportunity to send cases to his law partner.
If Mr. Borden's reputation needed any public defence, the minister's sweeping refutation at that time should have sufficed to end the matter.
Well, now, Pouliot was a liar because he had dared to say that Borden had taken advantage of his big position as controller of the controllers to encourage his law office. What an abomination! What a scandal! It takes a man who has no honour to defame someone like that in the minds of fellow citizens. There is the conclusion of the paragraph I have read.
Well, now, I have been as stubborn as a donkey. I wanted to get the information; I thank the minister for having given it to me, and I thank his parliamentary assistant, one of the hon. members for Ottawa (Mr. Mcllraith), for having helped me to secure it. I now have the information. The question is obvious: did Borden send more to his office in the matter of fees, et cetera, than was returned to the government? That is Pouliot's statement; is it true or not? I have the figures. I will not read them in detail; I do not want to take too much of the time of the house. But here it is:
Professional fees were paid to -the law firm of Borden.^ Elliott. -Sankey -and Kelley or Borden, Elliott, Kelley, Palmer and Sankey us follows:
From 1941 to 1945, $77,429.75. That is the amount which has been earned by that firm. If the answer which was made to me had been true, the amount returned to the exchequer should have been $77,429.75. But it was a little different:
. None of the -above amounts paid to this firm included any charge whatsoever for the time and service rendered by Mr. Borden to the department or any government-owned company while Mr. Borden was in any way associated with the department. Of these -amounts the folldwing were returned to the department as voluntary contributions representing all .profit.
And then are set out the amounts for the three years 1941, 1942 and 1943. This was tabled on March 21, and therefore it must include all that was sent. The amount returned was $21,048, and therefore they enjoyed $56,407.75. For this reason I say

Pouliot was right, arid his charges were not defamatory. I did not write to the Globe and Mail. But I put a question before the house, so that the house knows that when Pouliot asks a question, if he does not know all the details he at least has good reason for asking that question, and knows something about it.
I have too much respect for the house, including my colleagues, to make any false statements to it or to them respecting mafc-ters of fact. Of course I may err when 1 express an opinion, but when I state a fact I can always prove it. If someone wants information I will answer, and will tell my source of information, so that the house may know about it in a definite way.
My first conclusion is that one who has not been affected by the atmosphere of Ottawa will not be affected to any considerable extent by the unfair criticism of some of the local newspapers which are controlled by interests which always cater to- bureaucracy. One must make his own judgments. One must not take for granted that everything said to him is true, and that because something is said by Mr. So-and-so it must be right. Therefore I tell my colleagues, whom I respect, that if they want to continue their war against bureaucracy, and- to bring back responsible government in Canada, they are sure to be abused and to be slandered; they are sure to be minimized in the eyes of their electors!
I am not alone in that category. I remember well the insults that were heaped upon us at the time of the sittings of the civil service committee. My hon. friends were on that committee serving with me. The Minister of Public Works (Mr. Fournier) served- on it, and did excellent work, as did the other members. 'It gives me pleasure to offer them praise for what they did.
That is my first observation. Then I have another point I would ask hon. members to keep in mind. While I have the deepest respect for returned men and while I am . always ready to help them, and want to have the help of the minister and his assistant- because apparently they are two of tjie very few good men in the department-yet we must not lose our sense of proportion. Because a man has done excellent work during the war, it does not necessarily follow that he must be considered infallible in anything he does afterwards, in any field of action.
For instance, it was ridiculous to consider as infallible two former defence ministers, simply because each had a fine war record. It was silly to do that. But I could not contradict either Power or Ralston because both had fine war records. It is'true; I concede it;

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I admit it. But that is no reason why one should not find any fault in the managing of their departments. Those who believed them infallible were simply credulous, and behaving like children. I have too much respect for members of parliament to let them fall into such credulity, which is childish.
I have one thing further to say, and I shall have finished. It is to repeat in another form what I said when I was sitting on the opposite side of the house, at a time when I suggested we should have a union opposition, composed of all liberal-minded members of parliament. That was a time when the clean-up which has been made in the three defence departments had not been completed, and I felt it was time to do something about it.
We are here to do something; we are not here just to make speeches. We are here to reform the government of the dominion, so that we can do something beneficial for the common people. I give credit to all hon. members that they intend to do something for the country. We will do it together, if we remove obstacles to progress.
If we are to deal effectively with bureaucracy, with fairness and with equity, keeping in mind at the same time the usefulness of civil servants to the state-and this is not being done by the commission now making an investigation-and if we want to make a clean-up of the civil service, then we must first of all make a clean-up in all political parties, so that liberal-minded men may act together, whether they be Liberals, Conservatives by name, Social Crediters, or in the C.C.F. group. That is not important.
' We are reaching a time when there will be a great cleavage in Canada between people who are thinking about the future of the country. There will be those who have a Canadian spirit and who think of Canada before any other country; and on the other side there will be those who think of any other country before Canada. Let us put them under the same roof and in the same corner.
What shall we do? In the first place the two old parties shall get rid of the control of international finance. I have mentioned something about Mr. Borden. He may be a good lawyer, and I have not attacked his reputation as such. I said, too, that he had collected funds for his party-perhaps for both major parties- when he was working as controller. I find nothing scandalous in that. People become scandalized over things which ought not to affect them in that way.
But he is now the adviser to the leader of the opposition (Mr. Bracken). He is the man who was with Ralston, and who belongs to the DunningrRalston group in Montreal, the international finance promoters and agents. He is not the kind of man who khould be adviser to the leader of a great political party-and just on account of that fact.
He was controller of controllers here in Ottawa, a position he should never have had, but he did have it, because of the influence of Ralston, who was sitting with him at Barclay's.
Who is the chairman of the National Liberal Federation? It is Gordon Fogo, a former law partner of Ralston, who was assistant to Borden in the Department of Munitions and Supply, holding the position of acting controller of controllers. I want to get rid of them. I want to clean out the party of all these rascals and pirates. I want the Canadian people to know where we are. The party should have a definite policy. If our policy is to be a Canadian policy, let it be a Canadian policy throughout Canada. If it is to be an imperialistic policy, let us make it an imperialistic policy also in Quebec, so that the people of Quebec will not be deceived when the election comes around. That is enough for to-day, but it will be continued at some other time.


Mr. W. D. WYLIE (Medicjne Hat):: Mr. Speaker, in rising to take part in this debate at this late date I find myself in the same position as many hon. members who have spoken during the past two days. I had not intended to take part in this debate, but since our rules were more or less broken on Tuesday I decided that I might just as well get into the debate with the rest of the speakers from the different parties.
No reference was made in the speech from the throne to several matters of paramount importance to Canada, and in particular to western Canada. We have listened to many important speeches during this debate and have heard many important issues discussed, but I wish to touch upon two matters which, in my opinion, are most important to the people of my riding, to southern Alberta and to Canada as a whole. It is not that I think the other matters are not important; I certainly think they are important and I may take an opportunity of discussing them at some later date in the session.
I am confining my remarks mainly to two issues, irrigation and the trans-Canada highway. Those issues affect the future development, prosperity and economic welfare of southern Alberta in particular and of Canada as a whole. I wish to take this opportunity to thank the hon. member for Dav.enport (Mr. MacNicol) for the interest he has taken in the irrigation of western Canada and in particular for the meeting which he held in
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Medicine Hat in, January. My only regret is that I was unable to be at that meeting. I was in the hospital at the time, but from all reports I have heard that meeting was certainly one of the best meetings they ever held in Medicine Hat. There is no one better qualified to discuss irrigation than the hon. member for Davenport. I am sure he knows every coulee and where every dam should be put in connection with either the St. Mary's-Milk river project or the Redcliff-Ronalane project.
The residents of the drought area are fully aware of the fact that irrigation is the only solution of our crop-failure-due-to-drought problems, and that is the reason why more extensive efforts to obtain irrigation have been made during the past year than ever before. It might be well to enumerate for the information of the house some of the support which has been given to this effort during the past year. I shall mention only a few of the organizations that have supported this matter, but I believe they should be mentioned. These are:
South Alberta Water Conservation Council
Alberta Board of Trade and Agriculture
Medicine Hat City Council
Medicine Hat Branch of the Canadian Legion
Medicine Hat Chamber of Commerce
Medicine Tat Trades and Labour Council
Redcliff public meeting
Bow Island Board of Trade
Executive of the U.F.A. and Farmers' Union
Lethbridge Board of Trade
Various clubs in Medicine Hat as well as other organizations and individuals have given their support to these irrigation projects. I should like to read one paragraph frqm a resolution which was passed by the Medicine Hat trades and labour council, because this will give the house an idea of just how the residents of that area are looking at this project. They said:
We have given billions to Britain and other European countries, 750 million to the Export Credit Act, 750 million td Bretton Woods. Increased the capital of the T.-C.A. from 5 million to 25 million. Now surely we can give to our own -people enough to give them the horn of plenty, that they deserve.
I wish to state right away that the Medicine Hat trades and labour council do not object to the money we have given to the people of Britain. Those people have given much more than we in this country have given, as the hon. member for Selkirk (Mr. Bryce) has just said in his most interesting speech. Simply because it is mentioned in their resolution does not mean that they are opposed to the idea. They believe that when we can do that for other countries there is no reason why we cannot do something for our 	.
own people. That is why they say that in their resolution. Irrigation is the formula for an all-out Canadian prosperity. The east is dependent upon the west for its prosperity. It is in the interests of the dominion as a whole to place the prairies on a sound financial footing.
The projects most urgently needed could be undertaken first. As other areas are brought into greater and more suitable productiveness, the drain upon the government for drought relief would be lessened. The gains at first may be small, but as the areas under the ditch are increased the field of prosperity will be steadily enlarged and the need for assistance correspondingly lowered.
The St. Mary's-Milk river and Redeliff-Ronalave projects, can be described as an urgent need owing to deficient rainfall in that area and the feasibility of both projects. The provision of work when needed is important but this should not be the primary objective. The main purpose of water conservation and irrigation in southern Alberta is to rehabilitate the farming industry in that area. That is why such strong protests were made when it was suggested that both projects be placed in the category of an employment stop-gap. It is true, however, that the construction of irrigation works provides jobs, which is an added reason for the early completion of both projects, in view of the prevailing unemployment situation.
Mr. Speaker, the year 1945, like so many in the past, was another drought year. The devastating effects were extensive and far-reaching. This, following two years of drought, which were almost as serious, brings severe hardships to many farmers, and hundreds of farmers find themselves in the same position as they were in, in 1937, in having to dispose of their cattle herds. While stock prices were good, the majority of cattle were sold as feeders, which of course meant a loss to the farmers. Many cattle in that area have died this winter on account of the feed shortage. Feed was hard to get and had to be hauled long distances, mainly from the irrigation districts of Brooks and the Taber-Lethbridge area. The development of the projects mentioned would change this situation materially. The placing of the available watqr on these lands is the finest type of crop insurance against drought. For a long time we in the south have known that we have the natural garden climate of western Canada. This area can be made into one of the great producing areas of this continent. All that is required is to make water available when and where it is needed. Experience has proven

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that we cannot depend upon natural rainfall to provide sufficient moisture for the growing crops. There is, however, sufficient water running to useless and inexcusable waste down the South Saskatchewan river to irrigate almost a million acres of the best land in Alberta, and still have plenty of water for various projects in Saskatchewan, also water for Moose Jaw, which the hon. member for that city mentioned in his able speech last week.
With reference to the St. Mary's-Milk river project, international waters are involved and Canada has long neglected to make beneficial use of its share, while the United States of America has built reservoir facilities to store practically the whole flow. Unless we make a more combined effort to use our rightful share, the United States might claim this on the basis of prior use. We must remember that every drop of water which runs to the sea without rendering a commercial return is a public waste.
I have an illustrated pamphlet prepared by the eastern irrigation district at Brooks, of which E. W. Brunsden is general manager. I am sure most hon. members received this pamphlet. It is interesting and shows what can be accomplished by turning water on the soil.
On the first page it shows a lovely field of sugar beets and says, "This proven irrigation project has everything a food processor seeks." Then it shows part of the irrigation works, the Bassano dam, also the Brooks aqueduct, with two miles of continuous concrete conduit. It also shows the flume at Lathom, a fifteen-foot semi-circular wood stave, half a mile long, and various other pictures of interest. It gives the hours of sunshine. I do not think it is necessary for me to describe the pamphlet in detail because I am sure most hon. members have received a copy. It is a well known fact, of course, that under our present system of dry land farming out there we get too much sunshine and not enough rainfall. It also shows the long frost-free period, which of course is beneficial to irrigation. The southern part of the province has the longest frost-free period in the west, due no doubt to the Chinooks that we get in that part. The productivity of the soil in that area is also shown, not only in the Brooks area but in the south. It also tells about the specialized crops that may be produced to get away from wheat farming. It says this about specialized crops:
The farmers of the eastern irrigation district are not one-crop farmers. They long have practised diversification. Potatoes, 'alfalfa and sweet clover for hay and seed; sugar beets, radish, beetroot, mustard and peas for seed are
among the crops successfully grown over periods of years in addition to .all of the -cereal and coarse grains and flax.
It also mentions the high quality of the live stock of all types produced in that district. This is a natural result in an irrigation district where there is an abundance of feed.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Before the house rises may I ask the hon. member to write to the publisher of the pamphlet to which he has just referred and ask that a copy be sent to each member of the house. I did not get a copy, and the hon. member to my left and the hon. member in front of me did not receive a copy. It would do no harm and might do a lot of good.
At six o'clock the house took recess.
After Recess
The house resumed at eight o'clock.


William Duncan McKay Wylie: Mr. Speaker, before the
dinner recess I was dealing with an illustrated pamphlet showing what can be grown in the district of southern Alberta under irrigation. There are a few more points in this pamphlet which I wish to touch upon, such as types of food processing plants. For example, they have vegetable canning, and I understand they are getting a new factory this year which will mean a great deal to that district. There are small fruit canning and quick-freeze plants, to which farmers can take their fruit, have it quickly frozen and take it out as they wish, using it as fresh fruit.- There are also pickle packing establishments for cucumbers, cauliflower, onions and so on, and there are also meat processing plants. They have not a sugar beet factory at the present time but have high hopes of securing one in the near future. There is a move on now whereby, by next fall, they expect to have a plant.
The farmers of that area are so convinced of this that they went out and raised $600,000 in a matter of a few days to assist in building this factory, and they hope that the same results will not befall this undertaking that happened to the last factory which they planned on building.
There are also dairy products and poultry packing plants. That all goes with irrigation. Them, last but not least, this pamphlet shows the wonderful homes of the farmers in that area. There are twelve hundred farm families at present in- the area and their homes would be a credit to any district. In my travels around this part of Canada I have found very few homes that compare with those in the irrigation district. By that I do not mean that the homes in the west are as large as
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they are here. They are more of the cottage type. But they are all painted and' have lovely lawns, with beautiful shrubs surrounding the farms, so that they are a credit to the district.
The last page shows a picture of the Bassano dam, which would be of interest to many members of the house. I am sorry that all members have not received that pamphlet. I was under the impression that they had all received it until the contrary was called to my attention by the hoa. member for Davenport.
In "Alberta's eastern irrigation" district, where water works wonders," the charge for water is approximately $1.60 to $1.75 per irrigable acre, so that the cost is not so high considering what the farmers produce.
The pamphlet goes on to show what is raised on the irrigated land, giving the number of bushels per acre and other information. I hope that more of these pamphlets will be circulated in the near future.
Going from the irrigation district to the drought area, which comprises most of my riding, you run into an entirely different situation. You pass into an area where during the last three years the average yield of wheat has been less than four bushels to the acre. The Minister of Agriculture can very easily verify this by reference to the amounts paid to the farmers through the Prairie Farm Assistance Act. Not only that; there are farmers who have stock that is in poor shape for the reason that no feed has been grown. The homes are not so good-that is, the majority of the homes-as in the irrigation district. They lack trees around the buildings and also windbreaks, and that would mean a great deal in southern Alberta as well as in southern Saskatchewan, where we have plenty of Chinook winds. It would tend to break the wind not only in the summer but also in the winter.
In passing, I wish to make a few remarks regarding the Prairie Farm Assistance Act. That act has helped, of course, the majority of the farmers in this area. If it had not been for the act they would have found themselves very much the same as in 1937, back on relief, not only as regards direct relief but in the matter of agricultural advances as well. However, many changes are necessary in the act, and I hope we shall have an opportunity, before the session ends, to discuss some of the important revisions that should be made.
The question of farm products prices has been dealt with thoroughly by the hon. member for Battle River (Mr. Fair) and I do not think it is necessary for me to go over that again. The prosperity of Medicine Hat

depends entirely on this irrigation system. There are many businesses waiting until the irrigation system is developed and, after all, we cannot blame the businessmen, because we have had promises of irrigation for twenty-five or thirty years and not very much has been done.
I was talking to a garage man the other day and he was interested in irrigation projects. He said to me, "If I were sure of irrigation being developed in this area I would increase my establishment; I would build a garage twice this size." That is only one example of conditions in Medicine Hat at the present time. During the war we had No. 34 S.F.T.S. and the prisoner of war camp also brought many residents into the city so that conditions were improved somewhat. Now, however, these are both being closed. As a matter of fact, 'one has been closed and the closing of the other will soon follow. When that happens Medicine Hat will revert to what it was before the war.
We hope thaf what the Minister of National Revenue (Mr. McCann) mentioned is correct, that we can expect a fifty per cent reduction in our taxes this year. We shall wait and see with interest. I agree with the leader of this party who, in his able speech, suggested that the personal income tax schedule should be revised and the income of married couples be made exempt up to $2,000 and of single persons up to $1,200. That is long past due, and we hope that the Minister of National Revenue meant what he said when he said that we would have a reduction of fifty per cent in our taxes.
The seriousness of the drought problem is well known to all Canadians, and during the last election campaign every political party promised its full support to irrigation. That is the one thing upon which we were and still are united. However, it remains for the party in power to show action in this respect and fulfil the election promises. We appreciate the steps already taken by the government in making a start on the St. Mary's-Milk river project, but let us go forward with all the power at our command to develop the irrigation projects.
I have another subject of paramount importance not only to the people of southern Alberta but to the people of Canada as a whole, namely, the trans-Canada highway. Canada requires an adequate highway system built around a hard surface trans-Canada highway equal to any one of the many excellent transcontinental highways in the United States. Otherwise Canada stands to lose her fair share of the tourist trade. This matter has received a great deal of attention by many

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of the citizens and organizations in and around Medicine Hat. We feel that adequate highways connecting one part of Canada with another are as essential in this day and age as railroads were in the early days of the west.
The dominion government recognized its responsibility in the building of railroads. Extension grants have been made to railways ever since confederation and many lines were built by government funds, because we were told our national economy required it.
During the war the dominion government expended large sums of money in the development of airports. The dominion government has never committed itself to a programme of highway construction; the only effort made by the government has been in the form of relief projects to create employment. I contend that roads, as public works and essential means of communication, should not be relegated to the status of relief projects. Neither railroads nor airports have been constructed in this manner, and roads are just as essential to-day to the welfare and economic development of Canada as are railroads or airports.
In Alberta we have some very good highways that are so located that they will make very fine feeder lines to connect with the trans-Canada. No. 1 highway is not in the best of shape at present, no doubt owing to the fact that the provincial government is waiting to see what developments are going to be made by the dominion government. Past experience has taught us that many provincial governments are not financially able to reconstruct highways of such high standards through sparsely populated areas, and if we depend on the provinces to build such a highway system it is not likely that it will ever be completed.
The demand for good roads from the populated areas is so great that every province is kept busy trying to satisfy the urgent demand made upon it. It is also apparent that no uniform type of highway will be constructed across Canada if the matter is left entirely in the hands of the individual provinces. Briefly, I might mention why the dominion government should take an active interest in the development of an adequate highway system. It would foster and encourage communication between the several provinces of our dominion with a view to developing a national spirit. It would attract United States tourists and thus enable us to capitalize on the favourable advertising we have received during the past six years. Tourist traffic from the United States affects the pocketbook of every Canadian citizen. One of the finest exports we have to offer the United States is our scenery, our hunting and our fishing. It could be worth
hundreds of millions of dollars to Canada. Prior to the war the tourist business had been developed into one of our largest industries, and it can be developed into our largest industry, out of which every man, woman and child in this country will receive some benefit either directly or indirectly.
In his speech the other night the hon. member for Essex West (Mr. Brown) mentioned the tourist traffic and said this:
Situated as we are, the tourist industry is of vital importance.
It is just as important to us in the west. Then he went on to show the number of tourists who had entered through the port of Windsor. In 1945 almost five and a half millions of United States tourists entered through the port of Windsor. That means a lot to the economy of any country.
Large sums have been [DOT] spent in laying out across our dominion one of the finest systems of national parks in the world; but in most instances there are no adequate highways upon which motorists may reach them, and there is definitely no system connecting these parks. One would almost think they were created only for the people living in the immediate vicinity. Our national parks compare favourably with, and some surpass, all other parks in North America. In addition, people will seek cooler places to spend vacations during hot weather if they 'have good highways over which to drive. We have been assured by experts on tourist travel from the United States that the tourist traffic is governed entirely by the type of roads supplied by Canada. People naturally drive north to reach a cooler climate during the summer months, and if our roads are comparable with those south of the United States boundary they would continue on to Canada and spend their vacations here. Tourist traffic from the United States is so important to our national economy that our highway, system should become a national project.
Of all the peoples of the world the citizens of the United States are the most travel-minded, and the opportunity presented to Canadians should be fostered and assisted in every way possible by the Dominion government. The proposals involve a change of policy in so far as the dominion government is concerned, but the matter is of such vital importance to our national welfare that I believe all the pressure possible should be brought to bear to ensure our so-called progressive country being provided with an
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adequate highway system which will be not only a credit to Canada but a great national asset enriching every citizen.
In closing, may I say that in the past we have always been told that the reason why the irrigation projects had not been completed is lack of money; but surely in view of the hundreds of millions of dollars given and lent, also credits to other, nations, it should not be asking too much to ask the government to spend a few million dollars on our own people to develop our own country. Abundant production and the successful distribution of goods constitute our greatest assurance against any inflation policy.


Mr. F. S. ZAPLITNY (Dauphin):: I cannot see the value of the leader of the opposition and the Minister of Agriculture engaging in a verbal duel in the House of Commons, and taking up three or four hours' time in doing so-not that I am complaining about that at all. But I cannot see the value of their telling the farmer what he shall do in connection with seeding because, after all, in the last analysis, the farmer is going to make his own decision as to how much grain he will sow. I have lived among farmers and have done some farming in my lifetime, and I have yet to know a farmer who goes to Hansard to find what the Minister of Agriculture had to say, before he pulls out his seed drill in the springtime.
Every farmer has to develop his own farming practice and his own farming unit. He has to put in the acreage which will fit in With his plans. Whatever the Minister of Agriculture may say, and no matter how the leader of the opposition may contradict the minister, these circumstances will not make any difference so far as making a decision as to how many acres of wheat are to be sown is concerned.
But I know what will make a difference. If we want to have greater wheat production or grain production of any kind, then I submit that there is only one way in which we can get that greater production. Apart altogether from the weather, we must provide a price which will establish a motive for the farmers to produce grain. I do. not know exactly what the price policy of the leader of the opposition is, although he did speak twice in. the debate. Unfortunately, however, in his second speech he usually contradicts what he says in his first one. But it seems to me that he advocates a price of $1.80; and so that hon. members will not think I am making it up, I shall quote from Hansard. At page 275 we find these words of the leader of the opposition:
In the meantime I would change the stupid policy which keeps the price of our export wheat 40 or 50 cents below the world price, and either fix it at $1.80 instead of $1.55, or let the world price prevail until the shortage is corrected.
Let me point out that the leader of the opposition has described as a stupid policy one which keeps the price of wheat 40 or 50 cents below the world price. If one adds 40 or 50 cents to $1.55 he finds that it brings the price up to $1.95 or $2.05. Yet the leader of the opposition advocates $1.80, which is still below the world price, and is therefore still a stupid policy.


Mr. FRASER:: That is only your say so.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: Well, I am reading it from Hansard. Even though the farmer is in-

terested in the ceiling price or the highest price that he can get for his wheat-and that is undeniable-I believe that through bitter experience he has learned that it is far more important for him to know the lowest guaranteed price he may expect to get. He has seen times when wheat jumped up to $2 a bushel, and other times when it has fallen to 20 cents. So that the farmer wants to know, first, the guaranteed price the government is willing to give for the next four or five or more years.
I believe, if we want to get greater grain production, we might use a simple formula, namely that of letting the present ceiling price become the floor price. Under those conditions the farmers will produce grain for the next four or five years-that is, if they are sure that they are not going to produce at a low price.
It is far more important to have a guaranteed price of $1.55 as a floor than to let the wheat price go up to $1.80 or $2, and put the farmer back into a speculative market, and take a chance on' it again.
Another obstacle that can be removed from production is the matter of gasoline prices. Eariy in this session I took occasion to ask the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley) whether he would reconsider the order which has been made permitting an increase of two cents a gallon on the price of gasoline. His answer was that the matter has been given consideration, and that he was not prepared to make any further promise.
I know the farmers are dissatisfied with that price increase. I do not think I can find better words to emphasize that dissatisfaction than to read a letter, a copy of which was signed by over a hundred farmers in my constituency, and sent to me. This is addressed to the Right Hon. W. L. Mackenzie King, Prime Minister of Canada, and says: .
Sir:
As a fanner trying to help feed .a hungry world I wish to vigorously protest against the proposed advance in the price of gasoline, as it is another brake on the wheels of industry and a deterrent to agricultural production. If we are to avoid the hazards of inflation it seems to me that the government should be the last to countenanace the proposed advance of the oil corporations who have made huge profits all through the war years, and are well able to stand on their own feet in the transition to normal times.
The farmer of western Canada has been asked to bolster international good will by selling his wheat greatly below world prices. Bacon and other products over a bargain counter.
The Canadian consumer is getting his flour greatly below world wheat value and the eastern feeder of live stock is being subsidized at the western farmer's expense.

The Address-Mr. Zaplitny
If I have anything left over in a good year the income tax agent is on hand to attach the money that I have been trying for years to get to improve my humble home and surroundings, the remodeling of which is long past due. Now the government wants me to help out the poor oil baron. This is about the last straw. Have the legislators forgotten the .recent kick in the pants they received when they tried to raise the tariff on certain steel products. The western farmer has not.
The sit-down strike is in progress and will soon reach disastrous proportions if something is not done and done quickly.
The Minister of Finance did not lay before the house an accounting of why it is necessary to permit oil companies to raise their prices. He did mention a subsidy, and made it appear as if the western provinces were the only ones receiving subsidies. As a matter of fact, in the last year the government spent over S103 million in subsidies; and I state, therefore, that $3,500,000 to western farmers does not loom up quite so large in comparison.
I wish to mention another obstacle which should be removed in connection with implements for war veterans. There is a certain class of war veteran who is not able to obtain the farm implements which he needs because he cannot take advantage of the provisions of the land act. I refer to the veteran who, instead of buying land under the act, has bought it with his own money or has had land given to him, perhaps by his father. Under the act he is not eligible for a grant with which to buy farm equipment and therefore is under a handicap. I hope this situation will be remedied.
I should like to point out to the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) that the Prairie Farm Assistance Act does not operate to the advantage of all farmers. I mentioned last year the matter I have in mind and hoped there would be some change made, but apparently nothing has yet been done. I have a letter which I received to-day from the deputy minister of agriculture in connection with an area in my constituency which was damaged by hail. One sentence in that letter reads:
Township 29-20-W1, R.M. of Mossey river, was found by the board of review to have an average wheat yield of 8-3 bushels per acre; therefore, the board of review declared the township ineligible.
There have been many areas damaged by hail where the wheat crop averaged over eight bushels per acre, and therefore the particular township would not be eligible for prairie farm assistance. I would point out to the minister that it is almost impossible to find an area damaged by hail where there will be a large, wide belt of damage. This act may be suitable for relieving drought conditions,
but it certainly does not work in the case of hail damage. I believe some provision should be made to provide for relief on an individual basis, say from section to section rather than from township to township. Then the individual farmer whose crops had been damaged by hail would not have to depend upon his neighbour's crops being damaged in order to obtain assistance from the government. It would almost appear that if there had been a little more hail in this particular township the farmers would have been better off, because then the average yield would have been .3 bushels per acre less and they would have then been eligible for prairie farm assistance.
I should like to touch briefly upon the matter of industrial production. This subject has been covered by other hon. members, but I wish to say that fhe government is going to have to do some tall explaining to the people of this country. At the present time there are over a quarter of a million unemployed. There is also a great shortage of consumer'goods; houses are needed at a time when materials for building those houses exist in Canada. I would not be saying this if I did not feel that the government had promised the people of this country full employment. As was pointed out the other day by an hon. member, before the election took place we saw large signs nailed up on fences and telephone posts saying, "Jobs for all" in letters about six feet high.
I refrained from saying anything about this during the last session because I felt the government should be given a breathing spell after the war in order to readjust industry and put things in order. But in my opinion they have had sufficient time to get the wheels of industiy turning. If they are not able to provide full employment when there is such a shortage of goods of all kinds, when there is such a need all over the world for the products that we can produce, what prospect is there for full employment, let us say five years from now?
I feel a little apprehensive about the whole matter because I am afraid we are back on that downhill run that we took in 1930. Unless the government can figure out some way to make private industry provide jobs for all, then I think the only alternative is to plan for full employment and full production under public enterprise as was done during the war.
In conclusion, I wish to touch upon a question that was brought up in this house during last session and again at this session. I hope this is not a controversial matter because it does not enter into party politics. I refer to the displaced persons and refugees in
The Address-Mr. Zaplitny
.COMMONS
Europe. As a member nation of UNO we have a responsibility to discharge. As a member of the British commonwealth of nations we have a tradition to live up to. The responsibility that we have as a member nation of the united nations is clearly set out in the charter of the united nations. I intend to quote directly from that charter in order that I may have for the plea I intend to make a basis that is authentic. One of the objectives set out in the preamble is:
To reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small.
I agree heartily with that. Then in article 1, section 2, these words appear:
To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples.
Again I am glad .to agree with that. Then in section 3 of the same article there are these words:
To achieve international cooperation in solving international problems of an economic, social, cultural or humanitarian character.
These quotations appear in the charter of the united nations which has been endorsed by this house and which has received, I believe, the whole-hearted support of every hon. member. It is upon these three quotations that I wish to base my plea. I do not intend to go over this question of displaced persons and refugees because it has been fully explained in this house. I only want to point out that there are a great many of these unfortunate people in Europe who have to turn to someone- for moral and material assistance. I do not know to whom they can better turn than to a member of the united nations. I do not think we will back up on the position we took when we endorsed the united nations charter, when we undertook to extend democratic and human rights, the rights of freedom and liberty to all the peoples of the earth.
While UNRRA is doing a splendid job in Europe, it. has certain limitations as far as displaced persons and refugees are concerned. The provisions governing UNRRA state plainly that it is to deal with constituted nations. That is, the organization is set up in such a way that all nations contribute what they can, and then those who need assistance receive that assistance through the regular channels of their governments. But we must realize that there are perhaps several million people in Europe to-day who cannot truthfully say that they have a nation, who because of their political or religious beliefs or for some other reason find themselves not only

homeless but nationless. UNRRA is limited in what it can do for those people. It is true that the Red Cross has come in to fill the gap and has done a wonderful job, a job which will be remembered for generations to come, but that organization also has its limitations ; it cannot do all that it would like to do.
As I said, we have a responsibility as a member nation of the united ns.tions. We also have a tradition to uphold as a member of the British commonwealth of nations. The tradition that has been built up in the British commonwealth of nations, especially in Great Britain, the mother of the commonwealth, is one which will go down in history, not only for generations but for centuries to come. One of the reasons for the greatness of Great Britain and the British commonwealth of ' nations has been and remains that spirit of tolerance, that insistence on the other fellow's rights as well as your own, and a readiness to help out people who have become political or religious refugees. I think, if we accept the premise that all peoples on this earth have a right to believe as they please, to think what they like and say what they like, then we cannot but agree that the greatness of a nation is measured by the degree of tolerance and the degree of freedom and the lack of discrimination that it shows among all its peoples. I believe that Great Britain occupies the place in world history and in the minds of the peoples of the world that she does to-day chiefly because of this one quality, which has been her greatest quality, the spirit of tolerance and the spirit of freedom which it has been willing to extend to all people. As a member of the British commonwealth of nations, Canada, I believe, can take a lead in* this matter.
I have said once before, and I repeat, that we should take our share of refugees into this country if we can possibly do so. I wish to make it very clear, as I have on other occasions, that I am not at all interested and have no wish to drag into this discussion any political implications. If we are going to help the people of Europe in a moral or material way I believe that we shall help them best by allowing them to settle their own political differences among themselves, because by the very nature of things we are too far removed to understand all the intricacies of their political differences. So that I say I am not looking at this question at all from a political angle but purely from a humanitarian point of view as one who voted for the adoption of the united nations charter.

The Address-Mr. Mackenzie King
I believe that we can help by accepting into this country our share of refugees. I know there is a hesitancy on the part of the government to do this, perhaps for two reasons. There is the fear that it may have political repercussions because all types of opinions have been expressed on this matter, and there is also hesitancy because of the unemployment situation in this country. I have letters on file from the immigration department in which they express doubt whether it would be good policy to bring in people when our own employment situation is not of the best.
But I wish to make a concrete proposal to the government, in which I believe there will be no political implications and which will involve no danger of putting anyone in this country out of a job. The suggestion is not original with me; it was made by the hon. member for Qu'Appelle (Mrs. Strum). It is this, that we bring to this country, let us say to start with, 10,000 children of displaced persons and refugees, who from the very nature of things are the most innocent and most unfortunate victims of the war and its aftermath. Let people in this country who are willing and in a position to do so, take these children into their homes and bring them up as young Canadians. Let them stay here at least for a while. There may be some who after staying here for a number of years may apply for permission to remain permanently, and I have no doubt that will be true of the great majority. There may be others who, for personal reasons, or sentimental attachments, may wish, after staying here for a number of years, to go back to Europe. Both of these groups will be of great help to this country. Those who stay here will have been brought up in the spirit of Canadianism, and will have grown up under our laws and will be perhaps the most grateful type of Canadian that we can have, because they will realize that we have come to their help when they needed it most. Those who go back would also be a great help to us, because they will be ambassadors of good will of the very best type. Can one imagine any better people to go back to Europe, perhaps to those dark spots where the light of freedom and democracy has not yet penetrated, than young people who have grown up in this country and learned something of the ways of tolerance and freedom in a democracy and of the things we hold dear in this country? Back in Europe they can preach the gospel of friendship to Canada. I cannot imagine any better kind of advertising or any better ambassadors of good will that we could have. It would be far better than sending out 63260-23
Canadians who have grown up into adult life in this country, not knowing European ways and not being able to compare or contrast conditions in the two countries. Therefore I make the suggestion that we allow near relatives or close friends in this country, who are in a financial position to do so, to bring in children of displaced persons or refugees and give them a home and an education and a Canadian upbringing, something that will be for the benefit both of this country and the continent of Europe.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, I wish to say just a word. I do not intend to continue the discussion that has taken place in this debate. I have not spoken on the motion and am therefore entitled to speak at this time. All I wish to say, however, is a word to hon. members concerning the motion that is now before the house; a word in relation thereto which has an immediate bearing on the evolution of our parliamentary practice.
The motion that is now before the house is:
That the following address he presented to His Excellency the Governor General of Canada: May it please Your Excellency:
We His Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the House of Commons of Canada, in parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Excellency for the gracious speech which Your Excellency has addressed to both houses.of parliament.
Hon. members will see that the motion is simply a word of thanks to His Excellency for the speech which His Excellency addressed to both houses in opening the present session of parliament, nothing more and nothing less. It is identical in style and words with the address which over many years has been employed at Westminster.
I do not know what hon. gentlemen opposite are laughing at; I am simply stating something that is wholly obvious. Amendments have been presented to this address on three occasions in the course of the debate, each expressing a certain want of confidence in the government. All three have been rejected. The house has discussed those amendments to the address and all of them have been rejected. There remains now only the motion which is a word of thanks to the governor general for his courtesy in presenting the house with a speech which would enable it to open its proceedings-a word of thanks for that particular courtesy expressed in the form of an address, this being the appropriate manner in which to approach the sovereign or his representative.
The custom in the British house has been to adopt the address without any division. The earlier practice was to adopt the address



The Address-Mr. Mackenzie King
without any previous amendment, being moved. The custom of adopting the address without amendment has altered' of recent years and amendments have from time to time been presented. But the parliamentary practice, generally, has been to adopt the address, without any division for both houses to adopt it unanimously.
I widi to quote to the house certain authorities in support of the statement I have just made. I have here "On Parliamentary Government in England," by Alpheus Todd, volume II, second edition. At page 363 hon. members will find the following:
It has now become .a well-established rule, to regard the speech from the throne, and the address 'in reply thereto, as reciprocal acts of courtesy between the crown and the houses of parliament, and the address itself as the unanimous and respectful expression of the deference with which the house should receive the first communication of the session from the sovereign, and as pledging the house to nothing, save the serious consideration of the matters referred to therein.
I quote from page 364:
Accordingly, it has gradually become the practice to refrain from moving an amendment to the address in answer to the royal speech, "unless some great political objects were in view, and likely to ibe attained"; or, unless some assertion were made in the address to which the opposition found it impossible to assent.
That has reference to the amendment to the address. But, as I have just said, the old custom of not even having an amendment to the address moved has altered in the course of the years and amendments have from time to time been brought forward. Once one or more amendments have been brought forward and rejected', the house comes to have only the original motion before it, which motion is in the nature of a reciprocal courtesy, a word of thanks to the representative of the King- that is to say, in this country-or in Great Britain to the King himself.
I refer now to Bourinot's Parliamentary Procedure, third edition, at page 191:
It is felt that the questions mentioned in the speech can be more conveniently discussed when the house is in full possession of all the information necessary to the consideration of any important subject. Sometimes, however, the house may be called upon to express its opinions at length, and to vote on an amendment to, the address, which involves the fate of the government of the day. But under ordinary circumstances the desire is to pass the address with as little delay as 'possible, and to confine the debate to a general review of the policy of the government, without taking up those specific subjects on which the necessary information is not yet before the house. It is felt desirable, whenever practicable, to allow the address to pas6 without a division and "be in point of fact the unanimous and respectful expression of the

deference with which the houses receive the first communication of the session" from the sovereign or her representatitve.
I come now to a much more recent authority, namely, Campion, well recognized authority in the United Kingdom. The volume from which I am about to quote is entitled, "An Introduction to the Procedure of the House of Commons." I must first quote from page vii of the preface:
This book was projected merely 'as a manual of first-aid for new members, but with the friendly connivance and encouragement of my publisher its scope has been considerably enlarged. It now aims at presenting a complete account of the procedure of the House of Commons, on a scale midway between the official Manual of Procedure and May's Parliamentary Practice, with fuller explanations and illustrations than the former and in a shorter and more readily accessible shape than the latter.
On page 83 of this volume will be found a section which deals with the King's speech, "Debate upon the Address in answer to the King's Speech." I should like to quote from that paragraph:
The address in answ-er to the king's speech is moved and seconded by two members selected by the Prime Minister, one a representative of a borough,-
That is in England, of course.
*-the other of a county, constituency . . .
Formerly the address was framed to follow the king's speech paragraph by paragraph, but it is now moved in the form of a short expression of thanks. The debate, which follows, normally falls into two parts:	(1) a general
debate upon the policy of the government as outlined in the speech, and (2) debate on the amendments moved by the opposition, advocating alternative policies, usually expressed in the form of regret for the omission from the speech of the policies advocated. Some five days are by agreement usually devoted to this debate. At its conclusion the address is voted and ordered to be presented to His Majesty "by such members of the house as are of His Majesty's privy council, or of His Majesty's household."
I have looked through several other authorities and cannot find any which take issue with the statement that it is correct parliamentary practice for the house to approve unanimously the motion to thank the sovereign or his representative for having at the beginning of a session come to meet the members of the two houses, to open their proceedings by a speech from the throne.


Mr. COLD  WELL@: May I ask the Prime
Minister a question? Does he then regard the passage of the address, without division, as an expression of confidence in the government?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Most certainly not.

The Address

Mr. Mackenzie King


Major James William Coldwell: That is the whole point.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I wish to make that clear. Nor does the passage of the address without division commit any member to anything expressed in the address. An amendment affords an opportunity to take exception to what appears or does not appear in the speech from the throne and to the government's policy, but when amendments which have been proposed are rejected and there is nothing left but the simple expression of thanks to His Majesty or His Majesty's representative for having come to parliament and opened its proceedings, it certainly places the Commons in an anomalous position vis-avis the crown to refuse to thank His Majesty or His Majesty's representative for that act of courtesy.


Major James William Coldwell: I believe the general
impression here is that voting approval of the address is voting confidence in. the government and its policies. That is the general impression in the house.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That was my
reason for intervening in the debate at this stage. As leader of the house I have a responsibility to the house in matters of this kind and for that reason I speak at the present time. I should regret to see in this parliament, in the evolution of our parliamentary practice, any course that would depart, either in the letter or in the spirit, from what is obviously the right course of procedure to be followed in relations between members of the House of Commons and the sovereign or his representative. Consequently, I have brought this matter to the attention of the house tonight. Probably I must hold myself in part responsible for what has happened where there has been a departure from this practice. Between 1935 and 1940 there were no divisions on the motion in reply to the speech from the throne, the address each year was carried unanimously. Between 1940 and 1945 there were divisions. The record discloses that the house divided on the motion, or rather, that the motion was passed "on division". I believe that arose because a certain number of members on those occasions rose in their places or called "on division", and the Speaker was obliged to record a division. I am perfectly sure that the hon. members, in so doing, did not realize that what in fact they were doing was to request that the representative of the crown be not thanked for having come to open formally the proceedings of parliament.
So far as the British house is concerned, I have looked through the records of the last ten years, and I find that while there have 63260-231
been amendments to this address, which were debated and rejected, no division has been recorded on the motion to thank the crown. There have been some occasions, both in England and also in earlier years in this parliament, on which there have been divisions, but that has been for some exceptional reason.
It is for hon. members to take whatever course they wish. I do not desire to limit the house in the course it may wish to take on the motion now to be put by His Honour the Speaker, but I believe that the correct practice is that, now all amendments have been rejected and disposed of, the house should unanimously agree to thank His Excellency for the speech which he addressed to both houses in opening the present session. May I make it clear that, this being done, it will be understood, and must be understood, that the house is not thereby giving any vote of confidence in the government. The confidence which the government enjoys has been shown on the three motions in the nature of amendments that have already been before the house, debated, and rejected.


An hon. MEMBER:: Oh, no.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Oh, yes. So far as this motion is concerned, however, it is an act of courtesy in relation entirely to the sovereign or rather to his representative in Canada, and not an expression one way or the other of the confidence which hon. members may or may not have in the government.


Mr. HARRIS (Danforth):: The right hon. gentleman has studied the question. Perhaps he will tell the chamber what was the practice and what actually happened during the-time he had the honour of leading the; opposition.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: When I had the honour of leading the opposition between 1931 and 1935 some members did, I recall, rise on one occasion and there was a recorded division. I have already said that I am prepared to share responsibility for an error in procedure that has developed in that way. But now that I see the correct procedure as clearly as I do, I feel it my duty to bring it to the attention of the house.


James Horace King: Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


Gordon Graydon: On division.
Main motion (Mr. Viau) agreed to on division.
Right Hon, W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister): The first business after the address has been agreed to is for this house to order that the address be engrossed and
Supply

presented to His Excellency the Governor General. This additional formal courtesy helps to bear out what I have been saying. I therefore move:
That the address be engrossed and presented to His Excellency the Governor General by such members of the house as are of the honourable the privy council.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

William Lyon Mackenzie King: 
[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That this house will on Friday next resolve itself into a committee to consider of the ways and means for raising the supply to be granted to His Majesty.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
A message from His Excellency the Administrator transmitting estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1947, was presented by Right Hon. J. L. Ilsley (Minister of Finance), and read by Mr. Speaker to the house.
Mr. ILSLEY moved:: That the message of His Excellency the Administrator, together with the estimates presented this day, be referred to the committee of supply.


Gordon Graydon: Are all the proposed
.expenditures in one estimate this time?
.


James Lorimer Ilsley: They are divided into two parts, but they are in the one book.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
A message from His Excellency the Administrator transmitting supplementary estimates for the year ending March 31, 1946, was presented by Right Hon. J. L. Ilsley (Minister of Finance), read by Mr. Speaker to the house, and referred to the -committee of supply.
Gordon Graydon: Before we proceed' with this matter may I ask the Minister of Finance whether the supplementary estimates will be available to the members?


James Lorimer Ilsley: They are available now.


Gordon Graydon: If we are to deal with them to-morrow we should be in possession of them so that ive can peruse them as we so desire.	.


James Lorimer Ilsley: They will be available right away.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: 
Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.


INOME TAX-FARMERS-INSPECTORS
Mr. THATCHER:: How many government .income tax inspectors have been operating in- each province since January 1, 1946, checking farmers' income tax returns ?


Mr. McCANN:: There are 19 income tax inspectors operating in Canada, in charge of as many districts. Their assessing staff may be checking farmers' returns for the part of the day, week, month or year, or longer period, and also during the same periods may be checking returns of individuals engaged in various kinds of activities. Actually, any. firm information on the question is not available.


AIR TRAINING PLAN
Mr. POWER:: With reference to article 7, of the financial agreement between the government of Canada and the government of the United Kingdom to be submitted to the parliament of Canada for ratification,-

Questions
1.	What was the total cost in money of the British commonwealth air training plan, from its inception on December 17, 1939, to its termination on March 31, 1945?
2.	If, as and when article 7, above-mentioned, has been approved, what will have been the contribution in money to the total cost made by each of the partners to the agreement (a) United Kingdom; (b) Australia; (c) New Zealand; (d) Canada?
Mr. GIBSON (Hamilton West);
1.	$1,757,367,389.86.
2. (a) $54,206.31S.22;	(b) $92,766,680.00, less $27,585,611.77 mutual aid, $65,181,068.23; (c) $48,440,280.55. less $414,887.08 mutual aid, $48,025,393.47; (d) $1,589,954,609.94.
Note: In addition to the amount shown in
(a)	above, the United Kingdom contributed aircraft and equipment as follows:
Plan I-
Equipment furnished directly $ 87,365,032 22 Equipment furnished indirectly through lend-lease account	 3,000.000 00
Total	 $ 90,365,032 22
Plan II-
Equipment furnished directly $ 74,895,755 67 Equipment furnished indirectly through lend-lease
account	 243,030,799 72
Aero-gas and oil furnished indirectly through lend-lease account	 37,469,562 94
Total	 $355,396,118 33


Charles Gavan Power: With reference to -article 7, of the financial agreement between the -government of Canada -and the government of the United Kingdom to be submitted to the parliament of Canada for ratification,-
1.	At the -beginning o-f negotiations was the amount claimed by the government of Canada as owed -by the government o-f the United Kingdom with respect to the British commonwealth a-ir training plan greater than the $425,000,000 which it is now -agreed to cancel? If so, what was the claim submitted to the conference by the government of Canada?
2.	What were the counter-claims, if any, of the government of the United Kingdom which brought about the reduction to $425,000,000?


Mr. MAYHEW:: 1.	None,
2.	Answered by No. 1.


Jean-François Pouliot: W-i-th reference to the British commonwealth air training plan-1. Did Australia and New Zealand become partners to that pi in, and, if so, when?	*
2.	Were all members of parliament notified about it before November 23, 1944?
3.	If so, when, where, and by whom?
4.	If not, why?
5.	Were -any trainees from Australia -and New Zealand killed or lost on their w-ay to Canada to -follow the B.C.A. -training, and, if so, when, -and who were they?


Mr. GIBSON (Hamilton West):: 1.	(a) Yes; (b) December 17, 1939.
2.	Yes.
3.	(a) May 20, 1940; (b) House of Commons, Ottawa; (c) Prime Minister of Canada (House of Commons Debates No. 3, Monday, May 20, 1940).
4.	N.A.
5.	There is no record in this department, the office of the Australian high commissioner or the office of the New Zealand high commissioner of any trainees from Australia and New Zealand killed or lost on their way to Canada to follow the B.C.A.T.P. For further confirmation or otherwise the matter would have to be referred to the air force records office in the respective countries.



BUTTER STORAGE AND SUPPLY, MONTREAL AREA


[Stage Direction]
-Mr. COLDWELL:
1.	How m-any Oan-adian -troops a*re in Jam-adca?
2.	Were they at or n-ea-r Kingston, Jamaica, on or -about February 20, 1946?
3.	W-ere they held in readiness to intervene -in the public -utility workers' strike on or about the above date?
Mr. LAPOINTE:: 1.	One officer and one other rank.
2.	Yes.
3.	On 19th February, a wire was received from the officer commanding the Brockville Rifles stating that one company had been ordered to "stand to" as a mobile reserve and
Questions

that certain technical personnel had been ordered to "stand to" to operate water works and sewage disposal.
On 20th February, special instructions were wired to the officer commanding the Brock-ville Rifles that Canadian troops could only be used to protect life and property but that there was no objection to assisting in the technical maintenance of public utilities.
In accordance with garrison orders, one rifle company with three carriers was held in readiness as a mobile reserve to aid in the prevention of loss of life and destruction of property and 30 driver mechanics were standing by as operators of public utilities if so required.
Neither of these detachments was used but on 25th February, 1946, one platoon (unarmed) took over third line fire fighting duties at the central fire station to help relieve volunteer firemen who had been on duty for 10 days.


LOANS AND GIFTS TO GREAT BRITAIN
Mr. THATCHER:: 1.	What is the total doUax value of the loans which Canada has made to Great Britain' since September, 1939?
2.	What is the total dollar value of the outright gifts1 which Canada has given to Britain since September, 1939?
3.	Whait is the total of (-a) loans, (b) gifts, made by Canada to other nations since September, 1939?


Mr. MAYHEW:: 
CANADIAN GOODS SUPPLIED TO INDIA STATE RAILWAYS
Charles Gavan Power: With reference to the .agreement on settlement of war claims between the government of the Dominion of Canada and the government of the United Kingdom to be submitted to the parliament of Canada for ratification,

1.	What is the amount involved under article 3 F, of the said proposed .agreement?
2.	By what financial process does a debt .due to the government of Canada for goods manufactured in Canada and supplied to the India State railways become >a potential claim of the United Kingdom .against the government of India ?


Mr. MAYHEW:: 1.	$48,772,566.27-less any reduction that may result from the renegotiation of the contracts concerned.
2.	By the United Kingdom government making payment in full on behalf of the government of India wivb the agreement of the government of India.


HOUSING-QUEENSWAY SURVEY, EAST OF BURLINGTON
Mr. FRASER:: 1.	How many types of construction .and wh-ait kind of houses are being built at .the Queensway survey, east of Burlington., undeT the Veterans Land Act?
2.	What is the cost of construction for each type of house?
3.	What is the actual cost tto a veteran of each type of house, including water and seweTS?
4.	What terms are given the veteran?
5.	What is the complete cost per unit to the government ?


Mr. MACKENZIE:: 1.	All these houses are of frame construction. There are eight different floor plans, three of which are single storey bungalows and five, storey and a half. The houses are of permanent construction, each having full concrete basement, rock wool insulation, hot air heating and fully modern plumbing.
2.	Final figures will not be available until the whole project is completed. Construction
is being Carried out on a cost plus fixed fee of $225 per house. Ninety-three homes are being erected, of which only forty-eight are close to completion. Several months will elapse before the balance are completed. On the basis of those which are close to completion it is estimated that costs of construction will be as follows:
House	Water and sewage	Land-	TotalBungalows- $ 5,648	$ 334	$ 531	$ 6,5135,187	334	531	6,0524,956	334	531	5,821Storey and a half- 6,067 334	531	6,9326,018	334	531	6,8835,829	334	531	6,6945,698	334	531	6,5635,991	334	531	6,8563. The terms of sale to	a veteran are set by	
the formula contained in Section 9, the Veterans' Land Act, which, applied to the estimated costs set out in answer to question 2 above, would be a down payment of 10 per cent of the cost up to $6,000, plus cost in excess of $6,000, and a contract for two-thirds of the cost up to $6,000.
4.	Up to twenty-five years with interest at 3i per cent on the amortization plan.
5.	Answered by No. 2 above.


VETERANS LAND ACT-REGINA DISTRICT
Mr. McKAY:: 1.	What is the number of applications made by the veterans of this war for settlement under the Veterans Land Act in the Regina -regional district for (a) small holdings; (b) farm lands?
2.	How many of -these appl-ioaitions have been
(a)	rejected; (b) approved?	.
3.	Of the applications .approved, how many cases have been actually settled on (a) small holdings; (b) farm lands as of December 31, 1945?
4.	Have any applications been approved from areas in southern Saskatchewan known -as eub-margin-al ?
Mr. MACKENZIE;
1.	Statistical records do not divide applications for qualification into types of establishment proposed by veterans. Total number of applications for qualification up to February 28, 1946, for Regina region: 2,374.
2.	(a) Small holdings, None; full time
farming, 145.	(b) Small holdings, 106, full
time farming, 773; Provincial land settlement, 142.
3.	Number of applications for financial assistance approved at December 31, 1945; (a) 16; (b) 93.
Questions

4.	Applications covering the purchase of lands in the drought area of southern Saskatchewan have been approved where veterans have farmed in particular district and know the hazards.


PRINCE RUPERT DRY DOCK
Mr. ARCHIBALD:: What steps have been taken by the government to make use of the Prince Rupert dry dock?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: The Prince Rupert dry dock is owned and operated by the Canadian National Railways. During the war it was used in connection with war-time ship construction. It has now reverted to its original purpose as a facility for the maintenance and repair of vessels.


ROAD BETWEEN ATLIN AND ALASKA HIGHWAY
Harry Grenfell Archibald: What has been done by the Dominion government to further the completion of the highway between Atlin and Alaska highway?


Mr. GLEN:: Part of this proposed highway is in the province of British Columbia and part is in the Yukon territory. Reconnaissance of the area through which this highway would pass has been made by engineers of the Department of Mines and Resources and there has been an exchange of correspondence between the Department of Mines and Resources and the province of British Columbia in regard to its construction. It is the intention to have a location survey made of the proposed road as soon as possible.


CANADIAN DECLARATION OF WAR-PRESENT RELATIONS WITH FORMER ENEMY COUNTRIES
Mr. POULIOT:: 1.	Did Canada declare war o-n countries other 'thian Germany, Italy and Japan? If so, when and why?
2.	How many troops did Canada send to each of such other countries, and on what dates?
3.	Since the declarations of war of Canada on such other countries, did Canada renew her
(a)	political; (b) economic; (c) cultural relations with each of those countries? If so (a) when; (b) how; (c) why?
4.	What are out present pa) political; (b) economic; (c) cultural relations with each of those countries?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	Yes, against Finland, Hungary and Rou-mania on December 7, 1941, because these countries had declared war on our allies and were actively supporting our enemies.
2.	None.
3.	No.

4.	Relations with those countries are governed by the provisions of the respective terms of surrender.


RELATIONS WITH RUSSIA
Jean-François Pouliot: I- During the last thirty years, how many times did Canada break and renew her (a) poli-tioajl; (lb) economic; (c) cultural relations with Russia ?
2.	In each case, on what dates was each class of the above-mentioned relations of Canada with Russia (a) broken; (b) renewed, and (1) when; (2) why; (3) how?
3.	Has Canada ever renewed, either directly or indirectly, her economic relations with Russia before renewing her political relations with that country?
4.	If sio, when and how?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	(a) Canada granted' de facto recognition to the U.S.S.R. on July 3, 1922, by adhering to the Anglo-Russian Trade Agreement of 1921. De jure recognition was extended on March 24, 1924. The Russian trade delegation established' in Canada early in 1924 remained until May 28, 1927, when the Soviet official agent advised the Canadian government that he had been recalled to the U.S.S.R. Soviet representation in Canada was not resumed until October 21, 1942, when, following an agreement between Canada and the U.S.S.R. to exchange diplomatic representation, the first minister of the U.S.S.R. to Canada presented his letters of credence at Ottawa.
(b)	On May 30, 1927, immediately after the departure of the Soviet trade delegation in Canada, the Canadian government advised the Soviet authorities that while it regarded the notes exchanged in 1922 as no longer having effect, it was prepared to provide for the continuance of ordinary trade facilities between Canada and the U.S.S.R. In 1931, by P.C.463 of February 27, importation into Canada from the U.S.S.R. of certain enumerated commodities was prohibited. This was followed on April 18 by a Soviet order of embargo against all Canadian .products. In the summer of 1936 the Canadian government made arrangements for a visit to the U.S.S.R. by the Minster of Trade and Commerce; as a result of his conversations with Soviet officials, arrangements were made to reopen trade facilities between the two countries and on September 10, 1936, P.C.463 of February 27, 1931, was revoked by P.C. 2354; the Soviet embargo on Canadian goods was lifted at the same time.
(c)	No official information.
2.	Answered by 1.
3.	Answered by 1.
4.	Answered by 1.

Questions


RELATIONS WITH ITALY
Jean-François Pouliot: When, how and why were the political relations of Canada with Italy resumed since Canada declared war on that country?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: On January 22, 1946, in announcing the early arrival of an Italian representative in Ottawa, I recalled that on September 27, 1944, the President of the United States of America and the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom had stated that direct relations between their countries and Italy would be resumed. Following this announcement Italian representatives were received in London, Washington, Moscow and other united nations capitals; Canada also agreed to receive a representative of the Italian government in Ottawa, with the personal rank of consul-general. Canada has no diplomatic representative in Italy.


REGISTRATION OP WOMEN
Mr. POULIOT:: 1.	What was the cost of the registration of women ?
2.	On what date did it take place 'and for what reason?
3.	What was the >age of the said women?
4.	How many of them 'registered in each province ?
5.	On what date was it decided to discontinue such registration 'and for what reason?


Mr. MITCHELL:: 1. Casual staff	$42,520 51
(40 cents per hour to work in connection with registration)
Fees paid to postmasters	 10,847 93
(Each postmaster was paid 10 cents per person registered.
Where no local office existed registrants registered at post offices. This figure includes postage)
A special form used for this registration	 1,466 91
Total cost	$54,835 35
Note: This does not include salaries of regular staff in the emplojunent office.
2.	The registration took place from September 14 to September 19, 1942, for the purpose of establishing an inventory of womanpower.
3.	The age group 20 to 24 inclusive.
4.	Maritimes, 30,014; Quebec, 59,040; Ontario, 77,385; Prairie, 73,786; Pacific, 18,358; total, 285,583.
Note: The figures were compiled by regions, not provinces.
5.	This was designed as a "spot" registration only. It was not planned on a current basis nor was any subsequent one or any in other age groups necessary.


RELATIONS WITH GERMANY AND JAPAN
Jean-François Pouliot: Whait aire, 'ait presenit the political relations of Canada with (a) Germany, and (b) Japan?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	(a) Canada is in a state of war with Germany and therefore any relations Canada has with Germany are governed by the terms of surrender. Germany is for the purposes of occupation under the control of the Governments of the United Kingdom, the United States, the U.S.S.R. and France. Occupational control is vested in the allied control commission in Berlin. At the invitation of the allied control commission, Canada has established a Canadian Military Mission in Germany under Lieutenant-General Maurice Pope, as this house was informed by the Acting Secretary of State for External Affairs on Wednesday, October 24, 1945.
(b)	Canada is in a state of war with Japan and therefore any relations Canada has with Japan are governed by the terms of surrender. While Canada has no diplomatic representative in Tokyo, Mr. L. B. Pearson, the Canadian ambassador to the United States, is Canadian representative on the far eastern commission, which has its seat in Washington.


RELATIONS WITH FRANCE
Mr. POULIOT:: 1.	What have been the (a) political;	(b)
economic; (c) cultural relations of Canada with France since 1939?
2.	Have they been (a) broken; (b) renewed?
3.	If so (a) when; (b) why; (c) bow?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	(a) On November 9, 1942, Canada ceased to recognize a de jure government of France and diplomatic relations were accordingly terminated. The French committee of national liberation was recognized by the Canadian government on August 27, 1943, and Major-General G. P. Vanier was appointed Canadian representative in Algiers. Following joint recognition of the French administration on October 23, 1944, by the governments of the United Kingdom, the United States of America, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and Canada, General Vanier was accredited as Canadian ambassador to the provisional government of France.
(b)	The application of commercial agreements between Canada and France was of course suspended during the enemy occupation of that country.

Questions

(c)	No official information.
2.	Answered by 1.
3.	Answered by 1.


IMMIGRATION
Mr. MERRITT:: 1.	How many applications for admission to Canada as immigrants have been received by the Department of Mines and Resources since the termination of hostilities in Europe and up to the 1st March, 1946, classifying them by nationalities ?
2.	How many persons have been admitted, to Canada as immigrants during the said period, classifying them by nationalities?
3.	How many persons have been refused admission on application, other than for_ cause in *the particular case, during the said period?
4.	(a) In the case of those mentioned in question 3, was any indication given them, that at some future date their applications would be *reconsidered? (b) If so, what was the nature of such indication?


Mr. GLEN:: 1.	Information not available. No statistical record is kept of applications filed for the admission of immigrants.
2.	14,367 immigrants were admitted to Canada from June 1, 1945, to January 31, 1946. Their classification by nationality is as follows: Belgian, 10; British, 8,552; Cuban, 1; Czecho-Slovakian, 46; Danish, 10; Esthonian, 5; Finnish, 2; French, 22; German, 753; Greek, 8; Hungarian, 28; Icelandic, 6; Italian, 12; Jugo-Slavian, 13; Latvian, 1; Mexican, 18; Netherlands, 12; Norwegian, 67; Polish, 557; Portuguese, 1; Roumanian, 12; Russian, 6; South American, 1; Spanish, 4; Swedish, 4; Swiss, 8; Turkish, 2; U.S. Citizen, 4,206.
The majority of immigrants recorded above as of continental European nationalities were refugees granted entry to Canada as nonimmigrants during the war and subsequently given permanent status. The figures for February, 1946, are not yet available.
3.	Answered by number 1.
4.	Only in cases where circumstances indicate some further consideration might be warranted at a later date are applicants so informed,


RADIO BROADCASTING-RAYMOND ARTHUR DAVIES
Mr. BRUCE:: 1.	Is Raymond Arthur Davies in the employ of tihe C.B.C.? If so, in what capacity and at what remuneration?
2.	Did he at any time act as news commentator from Moscow for the C.B.C., and was this news broadcast oyer the C.B.C. in its news roundup ?
3.	If so, for what period and how much did the C.B.C. pay him for this service?


James Joseph McCann: These are matters relating to the broadcasting service of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation for which the Corporation is responsible and regarding which it is not subject to government control. Such questions can be taken up very appropriately in a parliamentary committee on broadcasting.
The corporation has advised:
1.	Raymond Arthur Davies is not and has not been in the employ of the CBC.
2.	He went to Russia as a free lance reporter. He cabled despatches to the CBC and some were used in News Roundup.
3.	His dispatches were received between January 20 and October 28, 1944, and between March 25 and September 30, 1945. He was paid at usual rates for such work.


PENITENTIARIES-BORSTAL INSTITUTION
Mr. McKAY:: What steps have been taken by the government to call a conference of dominion-provin-ciial officials far the purpose of establishing a Borstal institution in the dominion os recommended by the Royal Commission of 193S investigating the penal system?
Mr. ST. LAURENT:
Steps are being taken to appoint a commissioner, as authorized by section 4A of the Penitentiary Act 1939, as enacted by Section 2 of Chapter 28 of the statutes of .1945, second session, who will consult provincial officials, as indicated in Hansard of December 12, 1945, at pages 3347 and 3348.


WAR ASSETS-SALES TO SPAIN
Mr. MacINNIS:: 1.	Have surplus war assets been sold to the government of Spain or to any organization, corporation or person in Spain?
2.	If so, wbat is the nature, quantity and value of the goods sold.


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by 1.


SASKATCHEWAN LANDING TRAFFIC BRIDGE
Mr. BENTLEY:: 1.	Has the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply received a definite offer of assistance for the building of >a traffic bridge on the South Saskatchewan river at or near Saskatchewan Landing?
2.	If so, wbat was the offer, .and has it been
considered ?
3.	Wbat steps, if any, have been taken by the government to implement the construction of this bridge?

Questions


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	Last December, a request for assistance was received from the Saskatchewan government.
2.	The federal government was requested to bear fifty per cent of the cost of construction. Consideration of assistance has been deferred pending satisfactory settlement of financial arrangements between the dominion and the provinces, now before the dominion-provincial conference.
3.	Answered by 2.


INTERNMENT OF W. F. KUGLER
Mr. BENTLEY:: 1.	Was one W. F. Kugler, of Leader. Saskatchewan, interned during the war period?
2.	If so, for what reason o.r reasons?
3.	What was the date of his apprehension?
4.	When was he released?
5.	Were any conditions attached to his release? If so, what were those conditions?
6.	Have any reports been made on the activities of the said W. F. Kugler since his release from internment?
Mr. ST. LAURENT:
1.	Yes.
2.	To prevent him from acting in any manner prejudicial to the public safety or the safety of the State.
3.	4th September, 1939.
4.	17th November, 1944.
5.	Yes.
Conditions of release:
"1. That he do not return to his former home at Leader, Saskatchewan, or its environs;
2.	That he report once a month to the R.C.M. Police, or, if there be no officer of that Force within a reasonable distance, to such conveniently located person as the R.C.M. Police may designate;
3.	That he do not change his place of residence without first reporting to the R.C.M. Police or to such person as they may designate.
4.	That he do not journey from the city or other place in which he may be living without first reporting the details and purpose of his proposed trip to the R.C.M. Police, and that, if so required by the said R.C.M. Police, he report at his destination or destinations to such police as the R.C.M. Police may designate;
5.	That, short of joining the armed services and working in munitions plants, he do everything reasonably possible to assist in Canada's war effort, and that he do or say nothing that might in any way detract from the war effort of Canada or its allies, or that might in any way assist or encourage any enemy of Canada or its allies;
63260-24$
6.	That he obey all laws and regulations, including those relating to national selective service, and have nothing to do with any forbidden club or organization;
7.	That he sign an undertaking to abide by all of the above conditions."
6.	No.


JAPANESE REPARATIONS
Mr. BLACK (Yukon):: 1.	Has the governemt of Canada collected from or will it collect from Japan, expenses incurred by said government because of Japan's war on and against the allied nations?
2.	Will said government collect from Japan expenses incurred by it in repatriating Canadian civilians taken prisoner and kept in concentration camps by Japan until rescued by the armies of the allied nations?
3.	Pending such collection from Japan, is the government of Canada demanding from Canadian civilians so rescued and repatriated payment of the expense of repatriating them?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	(a) No; (b) No international agreement has yet been reached on the subject of reparations payable by Japan.
2.	Answered by 1.
3.	Yes.


WARTIME HOUSING LIMITED-NORTH VANCOUVER
Mr. SINCLAIR (Vancouver North):: 1.	What was the cost of (a) land; (b) buildings; (c) furnishings, of the two staff houses of Wartime Housing Limited in Nprth Vancouver?
2.	What is the total accommodation of these two staff houses?
3.	How much of this accommodation was vacant on March 1, 1946?


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	(a) This land was leased from the municipality of North Vancouver at $10.00 per year; (b) $67,250.83; (c) $11,998.96.
2.	163 beds.
3.	63 beds.


TRANS-CANADA AIR LINES-PATRICIA BAY-SEA ISLAND FARES
Mr. PEARKES:: 1.	Has any change in the fare on T.C.A. planes, operating between Patricia bay and Sea island, Vancouver, been authorized during the past twelve months?
2.	If so, what was the nature of the changes made, and for what reason were these fares altered ?


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	Yes.
2.	On August 1, 1945, Trans-Canada Air Lines licence which authorized the transport of through traffic to Victoria was amended to authorize the company to carry local traffic
Questions

between Vancouver and Victoria. Effective August 7, 1945, the fare of S3 one way and $5.40 for the round trip was established by T.C.A. for such local traffic. Air transport board Order No. 2 directed that these fares be increased to $5 one way and $10 round trip. The increase became effective January 1, 1946.
This action by the air transport board was taken as a result of. a complaint made by Canadian Pacific Air Lines that the T.C.A. fares of $3 one way and $5.40 return were not just and reasonable.
The facts as found by the air transport board were as follows:
Prior to August 1945 C.P.A.L. and its predecessors had been, for a considerable period, the air carriers authorized to provide the local service between Victoria and Vancouver and they had in the past, and still did carry the bulk of the traffic.
A most careful scrutiny by the board and its economic experts established beyond question that the rate of $5 one way, which was the rate being charged by Canadian Pacific Air Lines, did little more than barely cover the actual cost of operation as a local service and that C.P.A.L. was conducting its said operation on a sound and economic basis.
On the other hand, T.C.A. was operating a trunk line service on a basis of only two trips daily each way, in regard to which the local service between Vancouver and Victoria was merely incidental. In effect, the number of seats available on T.C.A. for the local service was entirely dependent on the number reserved for through traffic. In the event that all seats were utilized by T.C.A. for through traffic, there would be none for local traffic. It was, therefore, obvious that the considerations *which applied to T.C.A. rates were substantially different from those which governed the operations of C.P.A.L. Having regard to all the circumstances, it appeared to be clearly unsound to permit T.C.A. who could not carry all the traffic, or even any of it, if all its seats were occupied by through passengers, to operate on the basis of a rate which was substantially below the actual cost of operation of the purely local service in question. Had T.C.A. been able to handle all the traffic that offered, different considerations would have applied.
Section 5 (1) of the air transport board regulations respecting commercial air services provides that air carriers must furnish transportation upon reasonable request and must provide safe and adequate service, equipment and facilities. Quite obviously, to provide a

service which complies with all these requirements, it is essential that the air carrier receive a reasonable rate of remuneration. It would have been unreasonable and unfair to require C.P.A.L. to reduce its rates, with the possible result that the service would have been discontinued. As the communities served were primarily dependent upon that company for the local air services in question, the board found that the complaint of C.P.A.L. was justified and under the authority contained in its regulations the board ordered the change in rate hereinbefore referred to.


CANADIAN TROOPS IN JAMAICA
Mr. RAYMOND (Beauharnois-Laprairie):: 1.	Are there members of the Canadian Army serving in Jamaica iat present?
2.	If so, bow many?
3.	What is their assignment?


Mr. LAPOINTE:: 1.	Yes.	.
2.	One officer and one other rank.
3.	They are the rear party of the Brock-ville Rifles and will leave Jamaica by air on 30th March.


CANADIAN I.OANS TO OTHER COUNTRIES, FIRST WORLD WAR
Mr. RAYMOND (Beauharnois-Laprairie):: 1.	To what countries did Canada make loans during the first great war of 1914-1918, and what was the amount?
2.	Have these loans been repaid?


Mr. MAYHEW:: 1.	In the period August 4, 1914 to November 11, 1918, Canada extended credits only to the United Kingdom. In that period the United Kingdom also extended credits to Canada. The amounts of these advances outstanding at each fiscal year-end from 1915 to 1919 were as follows:
Mar. 31,1915 Mar. 31,1916 Mar. 31,1917 Mar. 31,1918 Mar. 31,1919 2. Yes.
Advances by Canada to the
United Kingdom $ 5,280,659 07 43,710,945 33 169,558,345 82 119,880,176 11 443,795,649 67
Advances by the United Kingdom to Canada $ 61,473,6S4 22 137,992,379 82 289,5S3,702 52 115,784,160 25 321,745,362 84
Note:-After the cessation of hostilities Canada extended credits to foreign countries as follows:

Questions
Amount
Amount outstanding advanced March 20,1946
Italy	 $ 6,003,301 20 Nil
Greece	 7,521,300 67 S 6,525,000 00*
Roumania	....	20,449,083	94	24,329,262	40tBelgium	
1,762,789	63	NilFrance	
5,737,954	53	Nil
*Includes $478,699.33 unpaid interest which was capitalized into the principal sum at the time the indebtedness was funded.
tlneludes $3,520,636.00 unpaid interest which was capitalized into the principal sum at the time the indebtedness was funded and $359,542.46 of unpaid interest due on the consolidated debt which was funded.


VETERANS AFFAIRS-PHYSIOTHERAPY EQUIPMENT, REGINA
Mr. PROBE:: 1.	What was the cost to the Department of Veterans Affairs for physiotherapy equipment installed by the Department of Veterans Affairs
in the veterans' wing of the Regina General Hospital ?
2.	On what date was this equipment ordered and from whom?
3.	On what date was it delivered .and installed in the hospital mentioned?


Mr. MACKENZIE:: 1.	Total value of orders placed but not completely delivered: $4,000.48.
2.	Orders placed on January 14, 1946, as
follows:	Crane Limited, hydrotherapy equipment, $443,58; Ille Electric Corp., hydrotherapy equipment, $725,50; Ille Electric Corp., paraffin bath, $247.00; Victor X-Ray Corp., electrotherapy equipment, $359.13; James Palmer Agency, electrotherapy equipment, $248.50; Fisher & Burpe Ltd., electrotherapy equipment, $1260.77; Reserve Stores (Departmental) sunlamp and treatment tables, $716.00
3.	Delivery still incomplete. Installation incomplete.


JAPANESE FARMS-FRASER VALLEY
Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: 1.	How many Japanese farms have been sold in the Fraser valley?
2.	What is the legal description and the price obtained for each property?
3.	When will the balance of Japanese farms be available for purchase, under the Veterans Land Act?
4.	What steps are being taken to keep them in production, pending sale?


Mr. MARTIN:: I have spoken to the hon.
member about this question, and pointed out to him that it will involve, particularly if No. 2 were replied to, a great deal of work which
certainly if possible should be avoided; and I was given the assurance that it is proposed to redraft No. 2 of the questions. The hon. member is not in his seat, and the matter may be allowed to stand.


James Horace King: Stand.


MANUFACTURE OF CLOTHING FOR ARMED SERVICES
Mr. BROOKS:: 1.	Are articles of clothing still being manu- [DOT] factored for .the armed services in Canada?
2.	If so, what quantities of the following articles are still on order (a) boots; (;b) battle dress; (c) greatcoats?


Mr. McILRAITH:: _
1.	Yes.
2 (a) Boots, ankle, leather, 6, 187 pairs; Boots, Mukluk (Muskox), 600 pairs; Boots, canvas, 35 pairs; Shoes, leather, 29,180 pairs; Shoes, canvas, 5,114 pairs.
(b)	Battledress blouses, 472 only; Battle-dress trousers, 468 pairs. Note: Above are special sizes to be taken as and when required.
(c)	Nil.


POSTAGE RATES-CANADA-UNITED KINGDOM
Mr. BRUCE:: 1.	In view of the food shortage in the United Kingdom, will the Postmaster General facilitate and encourage the sending of parcels by Canadians to friends and relatives there by (a) reducing the postage to the same rate as was charged for parcels to members of the armed forces during the war; (b) speeding up the time taken in transit at the present time?
2.	Will he take the necessary steps to shorten the time for iair mail .letters to the United, Kingdom ?


Mr. BERTRAND (Laurier):: Some days
ago I made a statement which is an answer to the first question. As to the second question, the answer is in the affirmative; and from the 1st of February to the 15th of March there have been flights overseas none of which have taken place at intervals of more than three days and no trips have taken more than two days.


James Horace King: Answered.


MOOSE JAW ELEVATOR
Mr. THATCHER:: 1.	Have any employees been laid off recently at the government elevator in Moose Jaw?
2.	If so, how many, and what was the reason for the lay-off?
3.	What .amount of grain is being stored .at the government elevator in Moose Jaw ait the present time?
4.	Is it expected that this amount will increase or decrease in the near future?
Questions


Mr. MacKINNON:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Eight. Decrease in volume of work to be done.
3.	As at March 21, 1946: Grain, 1,465,667-00 bu; Sunflower seed, 3,478,245 lbs.
4.	It is anticipated that stocks will decrease rather than increase in the near future.


WAR ASSETS-FARM VEHICLES
Mr. PEARKES:: 1.	Has the policy, whereby vehicles which have been declared surplus to War Assets Corporation, were sold to farmers in cooperation with the Canadian Federation of Agriculture, been discontinued?
2.	If so, when and for what reason?


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	The policy was suspended for a period pending negotiations with the Canadian Federation of Agriculture. Discussions now in progress will, it is hoped, result in a resumption of such sales.
2.	Answered by 1.


MANITOBA FOREST RESERVES
Mr. MOORE:: 1.	Are there any forest reserves in the province of Manitoba, other than those in the Riding Mountain National Park, under federal jurisdiction?
2.	If so, where are they located?
3.	Who owns or leases them?
4.	What is the expiry date of such leases?


Mr. GLEN:: 1.	No.
2.	Not applicable.
3.	Not applicable.
4.	Not applicable.


BUILDING MATERIALS-THEATRES
Mr. CASTLEDEN:: 1.	Have any permits been granted for construction materials for the erection of theatres in Canada during 1946? If so, how many?
2.	What department of the government granted priorities for building materials for the erection of these theatres?


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by 1.


EMBASSIES AND LEGATIONS-OWNERSHIP OF REAL ESTATE
Mr. BRUCE:: 1.	Has the government any control over the ownership of real estate by a foreign embassy or legation?
IMr. Thatcher.]
2.	If so, how many houses have UI3.S.R. acquired by (a) rental; (b) purchase, and (c) from whom-since their embassy was established in Ottawa?
3.	What is the total personnel attached to and employed by the U.'S.S.R. in Canada?
4.	Has the U.S.S.R. got consulates in other cities in Canada and, if so (a) how many; (b) where situated, and (c) the number of personnel in each place?
5.	How many (a) houses, and (b) personnel have the following embassies in Ottawa: French, Belgian, United States, respectively?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	No.
2.	(a) no information; (b) three; (c) one was purchased from the government of Canada and two from private persons.
3.	Eighty-six, including those mentioned in 4.
4.	Yes (a) one; (b) Halifax; (c) six.
5.	(a) The French government owns two properties in Ottawa the Belgian government, ope, the United'States government, one; (b) French embassy, thirty-six (including 16 Canadians); Belgian embassy, twelve (including 5 Canadians); United States, eighty-eight (including 33 Canadians).
These figures do not include consular personnel outside of Ottawa nor non-diplomatic personnel attached to separate purchasing or information offices.


VETERANS LAND ACT-FRASER VALLEY
Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: 1.	Under the Veterans Land Act, small holdings. how many houses at Haney. Mission, Chilliwack are (a) under construction; (b) completed?
2.	What is the total cost of any house completed?
3.	What was the cost per house of project overhead ?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: 1.	(a)	(b)	Per cent completedHaney 	...20	None	85Mission ....	...25	U	75Chilliwack ..	li	752. Average cost	(estimated):	Project	House	Services	TotalHaney	li storey	$5,442	$600	$6,042Bungalow ....	5,174	600	5,774Mission	1| storey	5,0S6	680	5,766Bungalow ....	4,978	680	5,658Chilliwack	1^ storey	5,356	497	5,853Bungalow ....	5,183	497	5,680
Questions
3. Overhead per house:
	Project	Total*
Haney 	
$462	$792Mission 	
304	634Chilliwack ...	
301	631
Note: Overhead which includes contractors' fee, and rental of equipment is included dn total cost of houses.


PRINCE ALBERT NATIONAL PARK
Mr. KNIGHT:: 1.	Has a certain block of lake view subdivision at Waskesiu in Prince Albert National Park been thrown open for public entry ?
2.	Is this property offered for sate with a building condition attached? If so, what is the condition?
3.	How many cottages is it planned to build on this space?
4.	Has the department concerned received any letters of protest from the people who are to be
displaced ?
5.	If so, what action has been taken in view of such protests?


Mr. GLEN:: 1.	Lots posted to be available for entry on and after April 1.
2.	Property not for sale. Each successful applicant will be issued an agreement for one year under which he will be required to build a cottage according to plans and specifications approved by the department. Upon completion of the cottage a licence for the lot will be issued. .
3.	One cottage for each of the 26 lots posted.
4.	No.
5.	Answered by "4".


TIMBER LIMIT CONTRACTS
Mr. ZAPLITNY:: 1.	At what date did the Northern Trust company contract for timber limits 571 and 551D in the Riding Mountain National Park aTea?
2.	What are the terms of the above contract?
3.	When does the contract expire?
4.	What other timber limits in Canada, if any, are there under contract between the Northern Trust company and the dominion government ?


Mr. GLEN:: 1.	December 23,1926, by transfer from United Assets Company of Winnipeg, Manitoba.
2.	Contract by annual licence as outlined on pages 8-13 of the regulations.
3.	The licence is renewable from year to year as long as there is merchantable timber as described in the licence in sufficient quantity to be commercially valuable.
4.	None on dominion crown lands.


BICKLEIGH, SASK., POSTMASTERSHIP
Mr. JAENICKE:: 1.	Who is the present postmaster at Bickleigh, Saskatchewan?
2.	Who was the postmaster at Bickleigh, Saskatchewan prior to the .present incumbent, .and how long did he hold this office?
3.	Was the prior incumbent of the post office at Bickleigh, Saskatchewan discharged or did he resign?
4.	If the prior incumbent of the post office at Bickleigh, Saskatchewan resigned, who requested his resignation?
5.	Is the present .postmaster at Bickleigh, Saskatchewan a returned soldier?
6.	Who is the mail courier for the post office at Bickleigh, Saskatchewan; how was he appointed, and what is his remuneration?


Mr. BERTRAND (Laurier):: 1.	Joseph Mazzei.
2.	(a) Daniel B. Brennan; (b) From 30th June 1917.
3.	Resigned.
4.	Because of unsatisfactory site the department was about to declare office vacant when word was received that Mr. Brennan had resigned.
5.	No. The remuneration paid amounted to only $166 plus bonus of $14.88 per annum and no applications were received from returned soldiers.
6.	W. Wade. Appointed originally in January 1938 as result of public tenders. On contractor's refusal to renew contract, temporary arrangements have been made with him to continue the service at $674.59 per annum.


PENITENTIARY COMMISSIONERS
Mr. JAENICKE:: 1.	Has the government appointed one or more commissioners under the Penitentiary Act as amended by Chapter 28 -S.C. 1945?
2.	If such commissioner or commissioners have been appointed has or have they taken any action under subsections A to 0 of section 4A of the Act, and, if so, what action?
Mr. ST. LAURENT; Mr. Speaker, the act referred to, namely chapter 28 of the statutes of 1945, is to come into force in whole or in part by proclamation. The proclamation for putting into effect that part of the act which provides that the appointment of one commissioner may be made has been under preparation and consideration since March 8, and I hope within a few days to be able not only to announce that that part has been put into force, but that an appointment has been made under it.
Questions


RYE STORAGE, DELIVERIES AND SALES
Mr. FAIR:: 1.	How many bushels of rye were in storage in Canada on July 31, 1945?
2.	How many bushels of rye were delivered to elevators in Canada during the period August 1, 1945, to March 1, 1946?
3.	During the same period, how many bushels of rye (a) cash; (b) futures were sold on the Winnipeg Grain Exchange?


Mr. MacKINNON:: 1.	1,505,607 bushels, exclusive of any rye that may have been stored on farms.
2.	2,667,560 bushels.
3.	No information.


VETERANS LAND ACT-PURCHASE OF LAND IN ST. THOMAS DISTRICT
Mr. LENNARD:: 1.	How many acres of land were purchased by the government from Mr. P. H. Verheyden, in the St. Thomas district, for the Veterans Land Act administration?
2.	How much was paid for the property?
3.	Are there any buildings on the property?


Mr. MACKENZIE:: 1.	72 acres.
2.	S14,750.
3.	' No.


EXPORTS OF FLOUR AND BY-PRODUCTS
Mr. DORION:: 1.	During 1945, have any flour and/or flour by-products been exported to the United States?
2.	If so, how many tons of (a) flour; (ib) bran; (c) oatmeal; (d) middlings?


Mr. MacKINNON:: 1.	Yes.
2.	(a) Flour, 13,416 tons; (b) and (d), bran, shorts and middlings are recorded under one statistical classification; Exports under this item amounted to 35,961 tons; (c) Oatmeal, 1,258 tons.


REOPENING OF ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE
Mr. KIDD:: 1.	When will the Royal Military College in
Kingston, be re-opened?	'
2.	When will instructions as to the academic qualifications required, be available?
3.	How many cadets will be permitted to register in the first class?


Mr. LAPOINTE:: The question of the reopening of the Royal Military College in Kingston is at present under active consideration. Detailed information as to date of reopening, academic qualifications required, and size of enrolment is not at present available but it is hoped will be announced soon.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. STEWART (Winnipeg North):: 1.	What is the value of plastic .aircraft and component parts, manufactured by .thermosetting method, by the government-owmed plant and operated by Canadian Cockshutt Plow Company?
2.	What was the value of all other similar plastic aircraft, and all other thermo-setting plastic parts purchased by the Canadian government?
3.	What amounts were paid to Mr. J. Vidal of New York?
4.	How much for royalties?
5.	How much for management fees?
6.	What amounts, were paid to the Aircraft Research Limited, of New York?
7.	How much was .paid to Mr. H. Atwood of New Hampshire?
8.	How much was paid to Mr. Atwood for travelling expenses from Vancouver to Ottawa?
9.	How much for .royalties or .any other payments?
10.	How much was paid to the Cockshutt Plow Corporation for management fees?
11.	Was there any payment to Vancouver Sales and Appraisals Limited, for its work of introducing plastic processes to the 'Canadian government, namely, the Vidal .and Atwood process?
12.	If no payment has been made, what action hias been taken by the government towards paying this company for .any services .rendered ?
13.	Did the Canadian government make use of Patent No. 366724 and Patent No. 384742; or U.'S. Patent No. 2126711, or U.S. Patent No. 2373738?
14.	Who owns -these patents?
15.	Has -any payment been made for the use of these patents?
SHIPMENTS TO RUSSIA SINCE 1941 Mr. POULIOT :
1.	Since 1941 inclusive, what quantity of each class of (-a) foodstuffs , (b) fuel, (c) arms, (d) munitions, (e) vehicles and parts thereof, (f) planes and parts thereof, (g) other war material, (h) rubber, (a) other manufactured products was shipped each year to Russia by Canada, (1) direct, (2) via the United Kingdom, (3) via the United States of America?
2.	What was the total value of such shipments?
3.	What is the total of .the .payments mode by Russia to Canada since the above-mentioned date?



CANADIAN INDUSTRIES LIMITED


Mr. MATTHEWS (Brandon):: 1.	Where are the head offices of Canadian Indus tries Limited located?
2.	Is this company associated with any nan-Canadian companies that are members of an international cartel? If so, what companies and what cartels?

Questions as Orders for Returns
3.	Are any of the products .miamufaetured hy Canadian Industries Limited protected iby Canadian tariffs?
_ 4. Is the manufacture of small arms ammunition so protected? If so, at what irate?
5.	What has been the tdtail lamount of small arms am munition imported into Canad a each year from 1943 to date?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Return tabled.



RELEASE OF TEMPORARY CIVIL SERVANTS

Gordon Knapman Fraser: 

WAR ASSETS-CORVETTES

Mr. FRASER:: 1.	How many corvettes have been sold by the government since the war closed?
2.	What are their names and what price was received for each ship?
3.	What was the cost of each such corvette and where launched?


Mr. ABBOTT:: Return tabled.



RELEASE OF TEMPORARY CIVIL SERVANTS

Mr. FRASER:: 1.	How many temporary (a) women civil servants; (b) men civil servants have been released during the last twelve months?
2.	How many of the above were released (a) with a view' to appointing qualified veterans in' their place; (b) because .they became additional to the need of the department in which they were serving; (c) because they were married women not dependent upon themselves for support ?



CIVIL SERVICE-APPOINTMENTS

Mr. FRASER:: 1.	How many civil servants (a) male; (b) female, have been appointed in the last six months by the federal government?
2.	How many were ex-service men or women?



GASOLINE TAX

Mr. FAIR:: 1.	What amount was collected in each province each year as a result of the imposition of [DOT]03 cents per gallon war tax on gasoline?
2.	During the same period, whiait amount was paid las a subsidy on crude oil ?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Return tabled.



HOUSING


Mr. STEWART (Winnipeg North):: 1.	What was the number of ('a) housing units completed each month; (b) houses under construction during each of the last twelve months
'in Canada?
2.	What was the type of construction of such bouses?
3.	What was the approximate average cost of such houses?



EASTEND, SASK., AIR CADET ORGANIZATIONS

Mr. McCUAIG:: 1. What was the cost of operating (a) Air Cadet League; (b) Navy Cadet League; (c) Army Cadet League; (d) Air Cadet squadron at Eastend, Saskatchewan, in 1945?



COSTS OF FIRST WORLD WAR

Mr. RAYMOND (Beauharnois-Laprairie):: What .amount does Canada still have to pay each yeaT to defray the cost of the first great war, such as pensions, general expenses or otherwise ?



MOTOR VEHICLES-PRIORITIES

Mr. HANSELL:: 1.	What is the order of priorities to the purchase of new automobiles?
2.	Are there any special oases apart from priorities? If so, what procedure is followed in dealing with them?
3.	Are chiropractors considered in the same category as medical doctors? If not, has the government considered giving them any particular priority ?


George James McIlraith: Return tabled.



PRIVATE SECRETARIES

Mr. DORION:: On January 1, 1946, (a) Who were the private secretaries to ministers, .and with what departments were they .respectively connected; (>b) what remuneration was paid to each one?



DEPUTY MINISTERS

Frédéric Dorion: On January 1, 1946: (a) Who were the deputy ministers, and other persons having the rank of deputy minister, and with what departments were they respectively connected? (b) What remuneration was paid to each one?



WAR ASSETS-CLOTHING AND BLANKETS

Mr. BROOKS:: 1.	What number of the .following articles is on charge to the several quartermaster generals' departments as of March 1, 1946: (a) boots; (b) -battle dress; (c) walking-out uniforms; (d) fatigues; (e) blankets?
2.	Are -any of the above articles being turned over to War Assets Corporation?
3.	Is the government considering the giving or selling of any of the above articles to the devastated countries of Europe and Asia?



REFUGEES-ENTRY PERMITS-ANTI-NAZIS

Mr. GAUTHIER (Portneuf):: 1.	How many temporary permits -for entry into Canada were issued by the Minister of Mines and Resources under order in council P.C. 9440 of December 10, 1943, to refugees transferred from the United Kingdom to Canada?
2.	How many such permits whre renewed?
3.	How many such permits are still in force?
National Wild Life Day

4.	Were said permits issued (a) before, or (b) after the entry of such refugees into Canada, and how many were issued in each case?
5.	How many such permits were issued to anti-nazi refugees who were in Canadian concentration camps?



NATIONAL DEFENCE-MISCONDUCT DISCHARGES

Mr. GILLIS:: 1.	Has the Department of National Defence, Army, Navy and Air set up a board of .review to examine into all misconduct discharges?
2.	If so, what are the names and rank of the personnel ?
3.	How many discharges have been examined to date?
4.	How many of the number examined have been changed?
5.	If a misconduct discharge is changed will the gratuity of the person affected be automatically granted?



IMPORTS OF SUGAR

Mr. MOORE:: 1.	How many tons of sugar did Canada import in each of the years 1943, 1944, 1945?
2.	From what countries was this sugar imported ?
3.	Has Canada agreed to import sugar only from those countries who belong to the international sugar producers .pool ?
4.	Has any of the sugar producing countries who do not belong to the sugar producers pool attempted to market sugaT in Canada?
5.	If so, what steps are being taken by the government to permit .purchase of sugar from those .producing countries who remain outside the producers .pool?



ARMED FORCES-REJECTIONS FOR DEFECTS OF SPEECH

Mr. WRIGHT:: 1.	During the years 1939, 1940, 1941, 1942, 1943, 1944 and 1945, how .many applicants for service in the armed forces were refused because of neTvous defects of speech such as stammering, stuttering, etc.?
2.	Did the Department of National Defence provide any training facilities1 where persons suffering from nervous defects of speech might receive help and thus be able to serve in the armed forces?
3.	If so, by whom were they provided, for what period and to how many in each service was the training or assistance given?



TIMBER LIMIT CONTRACTS

Mr. ZAPLITNY:: 1.	Are there at this date any timber limits in excess of one million feet under contract between firms or individuals and the dominion government ?
2.	If so (a) what are the locations of such [DOT]limits; (b) what is the date each contract was entered into, and what is the expiry date; (e) what is the name and address of the firm or individual holding .the contract in each case?
[Mr. P. Gauthier.!



DEPARTMENTS AND DEPUTY HEADS

Mr. DORION:: 1.	How many departments are there under the .authority of each Minister of the Crown?
2.	Which are these departments?
3.	Who is the deputy head of each?
-	WILD LIFE



PROVISION FOR APRIL 10 AS JACK MINER NATIONAL WILD LIFE DAY

[Stage Direction]
Mr. J. R. MacNICOL (Davenport) moved the second reading of bill No. 2, respecting the Jack Miner National Wild Life Day.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I feel very humble in moving second reading of a bill which has to do with the perpetuation of the memory of a great Canadian, one who was recognized everywhere as the .pioneer conservator of wild life not only in, Canada but throughout America, and as the greatest naturalist on this continent.
A few days ago I read an article in a magazine which classed the late Jack Miner, who was a great pioneer, with other great pioneers, other men who blazed' name and fame across the skies. His name appeared alongside names of men like Sir Henry Bessemer, who invented a process in connection with the production of steel, one which revolutionized steel production throughout the world. Then there was Luther Burbank, who was a great horticulturist. In the list was Louis Pasteur whose name is known throughout the world, and who has been recognized as a great French scientist. There was Graham Bell, who invented the telephone; Thomas A. Edison; Doctor Grenfell; Doctor Banting; Lord Kelvin; Remington, who invented the typewriter; the Wright brothers, who invented the aeroplane; Ford, who was the pioneer in low-priced motor cars, and Jack Miner himself.
This lists twelve great men; and as a Canadian I am proud that, through his great work, Jack Miner earned the right to have his name alongside the names of those other great pioneers. So many have spoken to me in support of the bill that I know I shall not have to speak at length at this time. On the other hand, so many have asked questions respecting its significance that I feel I should answer those questions as they have come to me.
Some have asked how the bill came to be introduced-who it was who suggested it. Well, this is the second bill I have introduced in this connection. The first was introduced in 1941. In the previous autumn I had been at Kingsville, upon which occasion I saw large buses-I do not remember how many-carrying signs along their sides indicating that they

National Wild Lije Day
had been chartered by the board of education of the city of Detroit.. Kingsville is a beautiful town, situated in one of the finest counties in all America.
Paul Joseph James Martin: The best county.


John Ritchie MacNicol: One of the finest, not
only in Canada, but in America. It is situated in a perfect garden country, a fact which must be known to all who have been there. These buses turned at the main corner of the town of Kingsville for the purpose of going north for a distance of a mile or so to the sanctuary created by the late Jack Miner.
One of the men standing at the corner was Mr. Arthur Allen who, on several occasions, had proposed to the Kingsville council that they take steps to set apart a day. He had suggested that they should choose April 10, Jack Miner's birthday, as a day on which not only the children from Detroit, but those from all other parts of Ontario and the United States might visit the sanctuary. That is the origin of the bill. The idea was suggested to me while I was there, with the result that in the following year I introduced a bill. However, on account of the war, it was suggested to me that any action in connection with the bill might be deferred until after the war. I was glad to comply with the suggestion; I am always happy to cooperate if I can.
I know there is nothing I can add to either the name or the fame of Jack Miner. All the great men in America have done that; they have left nothing for anyone else to add. Therefore I shall not try.
I have been asked what states have wild life days. Perhaps I should explain that I have received literature from the United States. A tremendous amount of it has come to my desk, from all sorts of organizations. That to which I shall direct the attention of the house is the literature which reached me from that great American organization known as the National Wild Life Federation in the United States. From that literature I learn that it was the late President, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, a very great friend of our own Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King), who originated the idea in that country. I might say, in passing, that it is a blessing the President and our Prime Minister were such good friends during those days of struggle through which we have passed. I believe that our Prime Minister's influence with the President was most helpful in those negotiations which took place between the United States and the British empire.
It was in 1938 that the late President set apart the first day of spring as wild life day in the United States. They set apart the week of March 21-and had I known that . when I drafted this bill, instead of mentioning a single day I would have inserted the words "the week of April 10". Some people have asked, "How are you going to hold to April 10, when it might fall on a Saturday or Sunday, and in that way would not be effective in the schools?" I note that in some of the states this difficulty has been overcome by setting apart a week or a month and, if this bill is accepted, the necessary change could be made in this direction by way of amendment.
In the United States they have what is known as national wild life week. This is the statement made by the National Wild Life Federation:
National wild life week, originally proclaimed by President Roosevelt in 1938 as a .period in which Americans should give thoughtful consideration to wild life, its restoration and preservation, will begin this year on March 21, the first day of spring, the National Wild Life Federation has announced.
Sponsored by the federation, wild life week is featured by many kinds of educational activities carried on by various organizations, groups .and agencies .affiliated with the federation. In addition there will be lectures,- radio talks, newspaper stories, school programmes, etc., throughout the country, devoted to an intelligent approach to conservation of soil, water, fields and forests as well as wild life.
I am assured by the Miner foundation that they, and the organizations with which they are closely associated in Canada and whose work in connection with wild life conservation they sponsor, will supply all the literature required, and I have no doubt that they will carry out this undertaking.
Most of the southern states in the United States have adopted wild life weeks. They have followed the federal government's programme and have selected the week of March 21. In the south the season is much more advanced; in fact the geese and ducks all left for the north early in March. A little different programme is followed in the northern states, and I shall refer to Ohio as an example. Arbour day, which as I remember is on a Friday, in April, is selected and the week in which that day falls is set aside as wild life week. I should like to read two or three paragraphs from a proclamation which was issued by the state of Ohio in 1943. These read:	t
Whereas, for the past four years, the entire month of April has been set .aside as conservation month in Ohio, thus kindling anew the interest of our citizens in all phases of conservation, and	*
National Wild Lije Day

Whereas, the teaching of conservation in the schools of Ohio has been commended in a joint programme of the state department of education and the Ohio division of conservation.
And further down:
Now, therefore, I, John W. Bricker, governor of the state of Ohio, do hereby appoint and designate the week of April 12 to 16 as conservation week in the schools of Ohio and Friday, April 16, -as arbour and bird day and ask a general observance by all citizens of the state of the entire month of April as conservation month.
I understand that the state of Michigan takes arbour day as the pivotal day in their wild life conservation week. I shall not take time to give details of what that state does, but it is along the lines of what I have just read. There is nothing new in a wild life day or a wild life week, because as far as I know it is general throughout the states of the United States. Therefore I feel the time has come when Canada should do the same.
The United States does not have an outstanding conservationist or wild life advocate like the late Jack Miner was, and it seems to me that April 10, which is the anniversary of the birthday of this great wild life conservationist and this great naturalist, would be a fitting day to include in a wild life week, or to be set aside as a wild life day as the bill provides. There are many days in Canada that are fairly generally observed. There is a day for tuberculosis; there is apple day which is the Boy Scout day and which is a national day throughout Canada; there is fire prevention week and so on. All of these are good, and to set aside April 10 as a wild life conservation day would be a new thing in Canada and would place us in the same position as the United States. The bill says a day, but it can be amended, to week of April 10.
During this period speeches could be delivered over the radio and all those interested could spread far and wide the benefits which would accrue to this country from conservation along almost any lines, and, in this particular case, wild life conservation.
It has been suggested to me that perhaps we would be interfering with the educational systems of the provinces. The provinces are supreme in educati anal matters and the federal government cannot interfere. I do not feel that there would be any interference because there would be no compulsion upon any provincial department of education to follow the provisions of this bill. I presume they would do just the same as is done in the various states in the United States. The departments of education in all the provinces are thoroughly alive to the great value of conservation in all

lines, and, in this case, the conservation of wild life. I do not fear any difficulty in that regard, although it is not for me to say.
I was a very close friend of the late Jack Miner. I often visited his sanctuary, and it is a little difficult for me to speak because I think of his lovely blue eyes and his lovely face which showed by its lines his love, not only for wild life but for humanity. Quite often when I was there children would come, and I used to stand back and watch the faces of the kiddies when they looked at Jack Miner. He was an institution to them and busloads of children would come to see him. They would show him their bird houses and he would pat this 'one on the head and that one on the back. I can see- their lovely eyes and their lovely countenances looking at his.
He was a great conservator; he devoted his whole life to conservation. The hon. members from Essex county know this quite well. The hon. member for Spadina (Mr. Croll), who previously represented an Essex constituency in the provincial house, the hon. member for Essex East (Mr. Martin) and the hon. member for Essex South (Mr. Clark) are all familiar with the work of this great pioneer, perhaps more so than other members in the house. I like to think of a pioneer being a man who blazes the way, who is not just a follower; a man who steps out and puts his name before the world. That is what Jack Miner did, and everything he did was done for Canada.
1 have received many communications and I think I should refer to one or two. One was from the London Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. I often heard Jack Miner say, "If I can teach a child to make an outdoor birdcage, I have made a conservator of wild life." That was a great thought; that was his life, as opposed to useless destruction. Wild life means so much to this country besides sport; it can contribute so much in the way of food, and its preservation is of the utmost importance. I also had-a very warm letter from Colonel E. S. Wigle, one of the oldest residents and1 a member of one of the pioneer families in that part of Ontario. He warmly approves the bill.
I also had a letter from a leading departmental store in Windsor, the C. H. Smith departmental store. Although I am not familiar with the store itself, I understand it is a very large store. I believe the hon. member for Essex West (Mr. Brown) told me it was tlie largest store in Windsor. They are going to use their big show-windows, I am informed, to present to passers-by a demonstration of the value of wild life conservation. I think it is fine for a great merchant to use the show-

National Wild Lije Day
windows of his store to interest people in wild life conservation. It is an indication that people are thinking of more than merely profit.
I also had a letter from the Chrysler Corporation, of Detroit, Michigan; everyone knows who they are; also one from Doctor Perkins Bull, a great conservator himself. If I may digress for a moment, Doctor Bull has gathered together, in my opinion, the greatest collection of early pioneer farm equipment used in Canada that I have ever seen anywhere. He has it housed in a museum which is part of a school at Brampton, where there must, be at least one-quarter of a million dollars worth of material. I appreciate his letter very much, coming from a pioneer himself.
I also received one from the Ottawa Humane Society and one from the National Parks Association of Canada, from which I quote this paragraph:
*Canada is so far "behind the United States in practical wild life conservation that it could *almost .be said that we have not even made a start officially.
I think the Department of Mines and Resources has made a start and I wish to compliment the department on the distance it has gone in that regard. I am looking for great things along that line from the new Minister of Mines and Resources (Mr. Glen), because he comes from a province where there is much to be accomplished in conservation of wild life and summers in a very great park in Manitoba, Riding Mountain park, in which there is much wild life protected. So that I look for a lot from him in the development of wild life conservation.
I quote another paragraph from the same letter:
The National Parks Association have a bulletin awaiting its turn at the printer's stressing the Americans' effort a.nd many of this 5,000 *edition should be in the mail before April 10.
The National Parks Association of Canada deserves unstinted credit and praise for going to the trouble of getting out and printing this bulletin. It is encouraging when you know that so many people are interested in promoting wild life conservation. Jack Miner was the pioneer in that field. There have been many others since and there were others during his time who have done a lot in that direction. I am looking at my friend the hon. member for Cochrane (Mr. Bradette), whose name I deliberately picked out as seconder of the bill because he is more familiar than many others are with the conservation of the Canada goose. He himself I believe has quite a sanctuary near Cochrane and when I go out that way again I will visit him. When
the geese leave Virginia and the Carolinas and Texas and Louisiana they fly north and cover six hundred miles the first day and then come down to rest. I believe it is the third day before they get to the sanctuary.
I have seen 50,000 geese at Jack Miner's sanctuary at Kingsville, and all through the years, Mr. Speaker, the Miner sanctuary has fed those geese. It takes many thousands of bushels of No. 1 com yearly to feed them.
I have watched his men on many occasions distributing the corn when the geese have gone out to the lake. The sanctuary covers a very large area, about four hundred acres altogether, but where the birds go is about twenty-five to thirty acres, ponds included, and the corn is distributed all around these. It is most interesting to watch them. I was thinking this afternoon, when I was told that this bill might come up, of the many occasions on which I have gone with Jack Miner to the little house he had amongst the trees. You had to reach it by a ladder and peep out through a peephole at the geese. They are bright and intelligent birds. Jack used to say they were the wisest of all wild life; in fact he did not call them wild. In order not to frighten the geese there were pieces of coloured glass hanging in the peep-hole in front of the people through which you could get a good look at them without their seeing you. I do not like to think when I go back there that I shall not have the pleasure of the company of that great pioneer.
I had another letter from the department of street railways, Detroit. I value this letter because that is a great organization. They have written me approving the bill. I also received a letter from the Canadian Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, Montreal, in which they warmly approve the bill. I quote this one paragraph from their letter:
In the matter pertaining to the Bill representing "National Bird Day"-
That is not the right name:
-I am pleased to state that our society appreciates the opportunity of concurring with you in your noble effort and may we hope that a favourable reception will be given your efforts.
I have another letter from a Windsor firm, Abbey Gray Limited, a motor car company, warmly approving the bill, and a very strong letter from the Essex county tourist association, signed by II. J. Lassaline, secretary-treasurer. I had the pleasure of meeting him at the Jack Miner sanctuary.
I have a clipping from the Globe and Mail, which quotes from the Calgary Herald, and I will read very briefly from it:
National Wild Life Day

Following this war there will be a great increase in the numbers of hunters and fishermen. Millions of young men who have learned the thrill of outdoor living will join the ranks of those older sportsmen who are already devotees of the rugged life. Pressure on wild life resources will be terrific. The result will be the virtual exhaustion of our game, unless game management can solve the problems of providing annual crops of game animals, birds and fish in sufficient amount to satisfy the demands of this army of sportsmen.
That is the purpose of the bill, that all sorts of sportsmen's organizations should do in Canada as similar bodies do in the United States. At their dinners or banquets in the week of April 10, in Canada, they should have speakers who will tell their members, and through their members the public, of the great value of wild life conservation all along the line. If we do that we shall preserve for right use the wild life in Canada.
Perhaps I might quote another paragraph of the letter from the National Parks Association. I ought to have quoted this before. This has reference to the United States:
As you know, they have 178 water fowl refuges totalling 3,415,542 acres supported by the sale in 1945 of 1,750,352 one-dollar duck stamps to hunters and -a few postage stamp collectors.
Since that time another 500,000 acres have been added to their wild fowl refuges. I do not know whether we have a tabulation of wild fowl refuges, but they now have 4,000,000 acres; and taking all their wild life, big game and wild fowl, they have altogether 13,600,000 acres. Speakers at various organizations should emphasize the necessity of Canada preserving some swamps and so forth. When the geese leave the Miner sanctuary I believe it takes them two days to get to the riding represented by the hon. member for Cochrane, and they go in thousands near the shores of James Bay, remaining there a week or ten days or more before flying to their nesting grounds in Baffin Land, Ungava and the Arctic islands. That is why I have referred to the hon. member for Cochrane as a conservationist. He is thoroughly familiar with the value of conservation.
I wish to say a word further with reference to Jack Miner. Among other titles, he had earned that of the great missionary of the air. He was the pioneer tagger of wild fowl. Others are now doing the same thing, and all credit to them, but he was the pioneer. That is the point I wish to emphasize above all others, and that is why so many honours have come to him. While I am on this point, let me give due credit to my right hon. friend, the Prime Minister, who alone must have conferred upon Jack Miner the O.B.E. of which he was so justly proud. I have never 
seen anyone in my life so thrilled at receiving a title as Jack was when he received the O.B.E., and I may tell the Prime Minister that if at any time he. visits the sanctuary he will find above the big fireplace in the living room three pictures, one of Edison, one of Henry Ford and one of our Prime M inister.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The big three.


John Ritchie MacNicol: He counted all three among his warmest friends and he respected each of them in the highest way. Jack Miner told me that it was in 1904 that he conceived the idea of wild life conservation. He had been a hunter in that part of Essex where, in those days, there was much wild life apart altogether from geese, because there were furbearing animals. He was an expert marksman and no one could beat him. When he pulled the trigger, whatever he fired at sank to rise no more. One of his ideas was that in the schools, or wherever the question of wild life was discussed, teachers should instruct sportsmen and children, if they ever became hunters, to make sure that when they fired they hit the animal in the right place, and if they were not sure about it, it would be better for them to go and retrieve any wounded bird or animal than to pass on and shoot ten more. He was altogether opposed to wanton destruction.
It took about five years, he told me, before he got together enough wild geese. I have forgotten how he obtained the first one, but I suppose it may be assumed that the first one was wounded and became a decoy. It was not killed but was, made a decoy, and from that commencement in 1904, until 1909, he accumulated a considerable start in wild life conservation in the sanctuary. In that year he conceived the idea of banding them.
There are two types of bands. In the United States the band has a number on it, and I am familiar with it. It gives all the information necessary to enable biologists at Washington to keep a complete record of migratory wild life, their habits, where they go, when they return and so on. Jack Miner's band does the same thing. In fact, it was Jack Miner who went to Washington to show the United States department how he' did it, and on various occasions that department sent its officials to Canada to watch him banding the birds so as to learn exactly what he did.
In 1909 he began putting Biblical verses on the bands. I have told this before but it will do no harm to repeat it now. When I was in northern Manitoba in Moose Lake, a few years ago, late one evening an Indian came in with a goose. There were no white

National Wild Life Day
men there but myself and one or two others who were with me. This Indian had shot a goose. I had a gripful of oranges, chocolates and so on to give to the Indian children, because I am very fond of Indian children. They were gathered round me when the Indian came with this Jack Miner band. I cannot quote him exactly, but the information he gave me Was, "Jack Miner, him great man". He had the goose that he had shot and he said, "Jack Miner, him send food for tummy", and on the band there was a verse that said, "He careth for thee", "Food for the soul". The Jack Miner band is peculiar in that regard. No other country I know of has anything on its band except the number to be reported to the biological department.
From that time until his death Jack Miner banded 75.000 ducks and geese, and that is a lot of ducks and geese. If you go there you will find baskets full of bands. Thousands of bands have been returned. With these he has been able to advise our own governmenf and the United States government about the migratory habits of wild life. That is one of the reasons why he was pronounced the great pioneer conservationist and naturalist of Canada and all America.
Knowing that all of us have to pass from this mortal scene sooner or latqr and that he had three fine sons, before he died Jack Miner legally set up the Jack Miner foundation to which all funds are contributed. If and when the sons pass on, the Prime Minister of Canada, whoever he may be at that time, the President of the United States, whoever he may be at that time, and the treasurer of the fund who, I bejieve, is a great banker in Detroit, will select the manager of the foundation. That will perpetuate the foundation; but I keep saying to myself that, if we pass this bill, it will go a long way to support those three young men. Jack's sons, in the great job which they are doing and to which they have devoted their lives. They get nothing out of it; they contribute everything to it. There they have a sanctuary, the like of which can be found nowhere else.
On numerous occasions Mr. Manly Miner, eldest and manager, has been offered a large salary to go to the United States and establish a sanctuary on lines similar to the one established in Canada. These three young men are following in the footsteps of their distinguished father. So long as they live, this country will be proud of their work and what they are doing to maintain the traditions of their father and to keep the Jack Miner sanctuary and the Jack Miner name as a great conservationist of wild life before the world.
They are working for Canada, their home and their father's home, to keep it in the forefront of wild life conservation.
If the children in the schools and the members of clubs were told the value of bird houses and so forth in the conservation and protection of wild life and not to shoot uselessly to kill, but to shoot straight, it would be of great help to Canada in providing protection for wild life and sport for the hunters. At the sanctuary I have seen geese rise in the evening and fly to lake Erie. They are protected as they fly over the first 200 acres of land, but when they cross the Miner sanctuary they are peppered at by thousands of Detroit hunters and others. Occasionally the hunters get one. Many times in the past I have heard Jack Miner say that they like to shoot; that if one or two did get a bird they are satisfied. Think of what these sportsmen mean to Canada. Think of the tourist traffic that that brings into Canada. He was always thinking of Canada and of wild life conservation.
I am happy to have this bill supported by a great friend of Jack Miner, and himself no mean wild life conservationist, the hon. member for Cochrane.


Mr. J. A. BRADETTE (Cochrane):: Before proceeding with my remarks I wish first of all to compliment the hon. member on presenting this bill for discussion in the house at this time. I realize now that he has fully implemented the purpose of the bill. By saying that, I mean that he has focused the attention of the Canadian people on the great lifework of the late lamented Jack Miner, and the meaning of his actions as a conservationist. I often visited his place, and I was greatly honoured by his friendship. I found that I had it naturally and spontaneously the very first time that I visited him when I told him of the wild duck and geese that had been feeding for a number of years in one of my lakes located in northern Ontario. That was the best way to reach his heart.
On several occasions it has been well said that he was a natural naturalist. It was true that he had no technical knowledge of these matters so far as a university education was concerned, but I believe that he w'as the greatest real naturalist that Canada has ever produced.
A few weeks ago there was a radio quiz in which it was asked who had been Canada's greatest naturalist, and it was unanimously stated through every section of the country that it was the late Jack Miner. To use his own language, he used to say that he was
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not so much interested in the number of spots on a woodpecker's tail as in saving the species from extermination. He was more than a naturalist; he was also a conservationist, and if there is one lesson the Canadian people must of necessity learn it is more and more the policy of conservation.
I come from a section of the country where there is the finest treasure house known not only in Canada but also throughout the world. But we are doing the same as the pioneer civilization did in old upper and lower Canada; we are w'asting to a great extent the natural resources and its wild life; we are wasting some of the wonderful gifts that have been given by a bountiful Providence, and in Jack Miner there is an example to be followed by every section of Canada.
I make this statement deliberately. I repeat that the presentation of this bill was properly timed, but at the same time a lesson must be understood by every Canadian citizen. In my own section we have slaughtered the wild fowl there; we have slaughtered our fur animals; we have slaughtered our fine game animals. We are going farther than that; we are polluting those big streams that are carrying their water into the great basin of the Hudson and James bays. Many of these big rivers like the Temiskaming, the Missanabi and the Abitibi, just to name a few that carry millions of gallons of water each hour, and to-day they are polluted. Where we had an enormous quantity of fine fish life there is practically no such life at present. The Canadian people must see that that water is again purified, is again returned to its natural state, so that the fish life can be restored once more as it was forty and fifty years ago, for the glory of God, and the welfare of our section and of our Canadian people.
I have seen the same thing happen with our wild life. It is true that neither the deer nor the moose were as plentiful as the bisons were on the western prairies and through the central states of United States. But we had them there by the thousands. These fine wild animals of our Canadian forests are decreasing too rapidly, and something must be done through education primarily, so as to preserve them from destruction. It is almost impossible to have conservation and all the things that Jack Miner stood for purely by legal statute. It must come primarily from the men and women of this country; it must be in their hearts in their actions if we want to preserve our wild life and our natural resources.
[Mr. Bradette.J
I may be out of order, but I should like to say a few words as to what we are doing at the present time to our natural forest resources in northern Ontario. We are doing exactly as was done in old Quebec and in the older sections of Ontario and the maritime provinces. How many people from this country and outside Canada after traversing every section of our country, and more particularly the four older provinces, are puzzled as to why some land was ever opened to cultivation, why it was allowed to be completely denuded of the great trees covering the land in those days, those great sylvan temples, where nature bloomed in its full glory. I well remember a place, for instance, like Sturgeon Falls, thirty-five years ago, when it was stated at the time of the inauguration of a fine big newsprint mill that there were enough forest resources in that area to enable the mill to function for at least two thousand years; yet after thirty years of that industry which meant so much to that section of the country it had to close its doors. Why? Because there had practically been wasted or extravagantly exploited most of the fine forest which had been given to people who were absolutely entitled to its exploitation but not to its destruction. I hope that governments, whatever they happen to be, whether at Queen's park or Ottawa or in any of the provinces, will realize what is involved in this unlimited, radical and unwarranted denuding of our forest reserves. I can speak with knowledge of my own section of the country. When, in 1909, I squatted on my lot the district was entirely forest; to-day, in very many sections, most of the farmers have to buy coal to supply their fuel requirements, the forest having entirely disappeared. There again something was wrong; there was not enough of this spirit of Jack Miner, the spirit of conservation and of preservation.
I wish to be brief in my remarks because I know that the hon. member for Essex West (Mr. Brown) desires to say a few words about this important matter.


Paul Joseph James Martin: All hon. members do.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Yes, all hon. members, because they are so vitally interested. Jack Miner did not belong to any particular section of Canada. To-day Jack Miner belongs to every section of this country; yes, every section of the world. The hon. mmeber who presented this bill spoke eloquently upon what our American cousins are doing at the present time in providing these sanctuaries which allow wild fowl to winter there. At the same time we must realize we have fine areas in the northern country where it is impossible for the
march 28, m6
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white man and most Indians to have access to the wild fowl during the summer months, so that the lessons of conservation should be heeded by both countries. But I have seen, in some of our own lakes, during the summer months, where there are hundreds of ducks and signs all over stating that they are not to be molested, but to be left alone, that if people have a -22 rifle or a little gun they will not hesitate to shoot the ducks out of season or any wild game that they may meet. It is past my comprehension why such ideas are still in the minds of our people. I well remember that many of the homes of the rural district of old historic Charlevoix county, in my youth there were thousands of birds' eggs emptied and strung around on strings. One would see hundreds in every home. Thank heaven we do not see that any more to-day, because we realize that in doing so we are harming our own country; we are destroying the laws of nature. I have also seen in my youth that when attempts were -made to plant some trees, the youngsters particularly saw to it that they were utterly destroyed in no time. A fine old schoolteacher we had, when one year the municipality decided to plant two thousand trees, gave one hundred to the children of our school, to look after them and see that they were properly protected. To-day those trees are a monument to the boys and girls who looked after them, a living thing, something for all to see and enjoy.
This is part of the message which Jack Miner has given to us Canadians. The hon. member who presented the bill brought to the attention of the house and of the Canadian people the wonderful work Jack Miner has accomplished. We realize that the late Jack Miner does not want a monument of granite or marble or bronze to commemorate his great work and memory, but he wants every Canadian to realize fully the import of his life work, the message that his own actions carried. As has been so well said by the previous speaker, it was a task to which he gave his life. What he undertook to do was, at great personal sacrifices, to educate in these matters the citizens of our country; and now he is ably succeeded in this great task by his three fine sons. I know that if he could hear this discussion he would be proud and) pleased to realize that in our national Canadian forum we find it possible to tell the Canadian people, as well as ourselves, to continue his fine work and to be real Jack Miners in the matter of the conservation and preservation of our natural resources, that in the work of nature in its wild bird and wild animal life we see the
handiwork of God, and to be true to his ideals is the greatest recognition that he ever aspired to receive as a reward.
Mr. D. F. BROWN (Essex West); Mr. Speaker, I wish to express my appreciation to other hon. members for having permitted me to speak at this time. I have to catch my train in a few minutes, and I am grateful for their courtesy.
I desire to speak on this subject on behalf of the Essex and county tourist association, which has offices in Windsor, Ontario. It so happens that the Jack Miner farm and sanctuary are about twenty miles south of Windsor, and we are very much interested in this subject, owing to the fact that in 1945 over 17,000,000 tourists entered the country, over 5,000,000 of whom came to the city of Windsor. Many of these people went to see the Jack Miner sanctuary.
As the hon. member for Cochrane (Mr. Bradette) has just said, Jack Miner is not a person whose fame is confined to any locality. He began his conservation procedure through the banding of birds, not with a number but with a verse of scripture. Jack Miner over a period of years has given much to us, and I think it is only fitting that we should commemorate him by passing this bill. I am very happy to state that not only will I support this bill but that I am sure that a great majority of the constituents I represent are very much in favour of it.
Jack Miner gave to us of his time. His farm was open several days a week and he spent his time in showing and explaining the various things he was doing. I recall distinctly visiting his farm, catching robins or some other birds, and he always permitted the visitor to take a bird and let it fly off into the air after a band had been put upon the leg. And he gave not only of his time, but of his money. During his lifetime his own funds were used in starting this sanctuary and keeping it in operation. He gave also of his knowledge. Jack Miner lectured through the United States and Canada, and, I believe, in some European cities, telling of the W'ork he was doing.
My earliest recollection is, as a very small schoolboy at Petrolia, Ontario, a distance of some 120 miles from Jack Miner's sanctuary, having Jack Miner come to visit us, tell us something of his work and show his pictures, mostly slides-for in those days there were not many moving pictures-and imparting to us the knowledge he had obtained over a period of years
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More important, he gave of his love. Jack Miner not only loved the birds, but he loved man. Through the work he did in spreading the Christian principles he loved, he has not only helped animals but brought healing; he has brought love to people throughout not only North America, but the great part of South America.
This has the effect of bringing tourists, especially at certain seasons of the year, to our constituency. They pass through the constituency of Essex South, a distance of twenty miles, to the sanctuary. At certain seasons of the year one may see literally thousands of birds in the air. On many occasions on lake Erie I have seen and heard thousands of geese out on the lake. And when I say "thousands", I mean literally tens of thousands of geese out on the waters, probably beyond the vision of the eye.
Then, too, there have been literally tens of thousands of ducks and, even more interesting, great numbers of white swans. And when I refer to white swans, I mean white swans by the thousands, who have reached that point,in their migration to the south, coming through by Point Pelee, and across to the Jack Miner sanctuary. At seasons of the year there will be literally thousands of those birds at the sanctuary.
I am sure my colleague the hon. member for Essex South (Mr. Clark) will join with me in extending, on behalf of the city of Windsor, and the Essex county tourist association, a hearty invitation to come and see this beautiful and educational sight at the season of the year when the birds are migrating.
I hesitate mentioning such mundane things as money in this discussion, but speaking from a purely mercenary point of view I must point out that the tourists who come to the Jack Miner sanctuary bring with them and spend good, hard Canadian dollars, and the currency of other countries. Those dollars find their way into our retail stores and our manufacturing organizations. They help to purchase the cars, in the manufacture of which we are chiefly interested. In view of the fact that they will create work, they bring dollars and cents not only to the city of Windsor and to the county of Essex, but to all Canada. I say this because the automobile industry buys its materials from all parts of Canada. Recognition of this sanctuary will help not only my constituency but ever}' constituency in Canada.
For these reasons I am happy to support the bill.


Mr. DANIEL McIVOR (Fort William):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to support the bill because of a promise I made to the late Jack Miner, who gave us a week at our camp at lake Minaki. At the close of that camp, when he described the value of wild life in Canada, we promised we would support him in his endeavour.
I should like to mention one text from which he spoke at that camp, where he referred to the description of a sport who went out to shoot for the love of shooting. When he left the spoils in front of his tent door he went to sleep for two or three days, and he cooked not that which he took in sport.
In support of that text, I would say that no man has a right to go out and shoot wild life for the sake of fun. When we treat wild life as Jack Miner treated it, it will cease to be wild and become tame. There is one organization in Canada, of which I was an officer, namely, the Boy Scouts, who will welcome this bill with enthusiasm. I am sure the leaders, in particular, will be pleased to note its introduction.
May I commend the mover and the seconder for their foresight.


Mr. S. M. CLARK (Essex South):: Mr. Speaker, I believe it is needless for anyone in the house even to attempt to "sell" J&ck Miner either to hon. members or to the people of Canada. He did that job much better than anyone else could do it.
I rise to support the bill proposed by the hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNieol), and I do so for one reason. The late Mr. Miner gave inspiration to this generation in connection with the conservation of wild life, an inspiration that has meant much to Canada. This is one way in which we can ensure that that inspiration is carried forward to the coming generation.
If some hon. members have not visited the sanctuary, I suggest their doing so at the earliest opportunity. I do not think anyone could adequately describe the scene when those clouds of wild fowl come in from the lake, or from the north at different seasons of the year. That sanctuary is being ably cared for by the Miner family. I would hope that for the sake of the younger generation it might be possible for the government to adopt the bill. Certainly I would support it heartily, as it is proposed by the hon. member for Davenport.


Major James William Coldwell: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the bill, and perhaps I may do so more particularly because I am from a part of Canada other than that in which Jack Miner's life work was done.
fMr. Brown.]

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I think all people across Canada owe Jack Miner a debt of gratitude for the manner in which he indicated to the people of Canada and of the world what bird sanctuaries could really do for wild life in our countries. When we look back over the years and realize that on this North American continent a century ago there were birds and beasts which are now extinct-and I have in mind particularly the migrating pigeon-we realize the importance of his work. Even before coming to this country I had read stories about the flocks of wild pigeons which flew down along the New England states to an extent that they obscured the sun. To-d'ay there is not one specimen of the North American wild pigeon in existence. It is gone.
I look back to my own province of Saskatchewan and to the plains of western Canada. During my thirty-six years in the west I have seen that country almost depleted of the typical bird of the prairie land-the prairie chick. It almost disappeared. I remember the wanton slaughter of the prairie chick, and I remember, too, the slaughter of the ducks in the early days.
Slaughter, for the mere sake of slaughter, is, I believe, something which we should deprecate strongly and, where possible, punish effectively, because, as the hon. member for Fort William (Mr. Mclvor) said a minute ago, any man who kills for the joy of killing is really not a good citizen of any country, anywhere. So that I am pleased to rise in my place in support of this bill.
I had the privilege some fifteen or sixteen years ago of spending a few days in Learning-ton, Ontario, which is in Essex county. When I was there I visited the bird sanctuary of Jack Miner with my, as they were then, young children. I remember how much interested they were in what Mr. Miner was doing. It was an education and inspiration to them.
It may be said that we have a number of days set aside now for various purposes and that perhaps we have a sufficiency of them. I happen to be a Protestant in religion and I belong to a church which commemorates some of the saints' days. I think of the lessons that those days bring back when one sees them recorded either on a calendar or in a prayer book. I think^it is useful for boys and girls who are growing up, and for the older generation too, to remember exactly what some lives have meant to the world in which we are living to-day.
In the same way Jack Miner has given something to this country, to this continent and, indeed, to the world, because Jack Miner's birds have been found in every part of the world
from time to time. I remember reading a few years ago how one of the birds he had banded had been picked up in Australia, another one in Africa, and so on. Each one was banded in Canada and carried the message of Canada across the world, giving, as it were, a challenge to other countries and other peoples to do what we were doing, to try to preserve wild life which is so beneficial to the human race..
I remember years ago reading a story about how a certain district-I have even forgotten where it was-seemed to be plagued with birds. The birds were killed, but when the birds were gone the insects came. Then the people who had killed the birds looked around to find other birds to kill the insects that were plaguing the vegetation in the neighbourhood. The birds and other specimens of wild life which we should preserve in this country are useful to the community and to society.
In spite of all that may be said about having too many days to commemorate this or that, I think this is a day that might be set aside. The hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol) does not intend it to be a holiday; it is intended as a day when through the press, the radio and, as the hon. member for Fort William has suggested, through the Boy Scouts organizations and other organizations of that kind, the life and work of this great citizen of Canada may be commemorated for generations.
I am glad to see that the government is placing in the estimates something a little more tangible than this bill indicates. I should like to see this amount made substantial enough that the work could be carried on or even expanded across Canada. In every province and region of this country we should have a preserve for wild life. I know there are others who wish to speak to-night, so that I shall close by saying again that I support this bill.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, I am sure that the house will expect that as one of the three members from Essex county I should join with the hon. member for Essex West (Mr. Brown) and the hon. member for Essex South (Mr. Clark) in the tributes that have been paid to a great citizen of Canada and a citizen of the county of Essex. Jack Miner was not only a great Canadian, he was one of those Canadians who became a citizen of the world. Because of his great love of bird life and wild life his name was perhaps known better in most countries of the world than almost any other Canadian. Few Canadians, apart from men like the Prime Minister (Mr. National Wild Life Day

Mackenzie King) and others, are as well known in our neighbouring country, the United States.
In paying a tribute to the hon. member who has introduced this bill, I should like to pay a tribute also to another hon. member who through the years has silently and vigorously fought to preserve in government places the name of Jack Miner. I refer to the hon. member for Essex South, in whose riding the Miner sanctuary is to be found. Jack Miner was a great friend of the hon. member for Essex South, as well as being one of his neighbours.
I myself had a contact with Jack Miner which went over a number of years. I knew him well and my family summered not very far from where this sanctuary is. I wish to pay a tribute to-night as well as to express a word of thanks for what the name of Jack Miner has meant, not only to the citizens I represent but to the family of which I have the honour to be the male parent. My children speak of Jack Miner, as do the children of Essex county, with a pride and gratitude that I am sure would gladden the heart of any hon. member.
I remember having the privilege on one occasion of visiting the home of a great bird lover in England, Sir Edward Grey. When he found out that I had come from Canada he asked me if I knew Jack Miner. As the house will recall, Sir Edward Grey and Theodore Roosevelt, great bird lovers themselves, found in the work of Jack Miner a great satisfaction which came to them in the evening of their very busy lives.
Essex county is proud of Jack Miner. Essex county, as the hon. member for Davenport has said, is one of the great counties of Canada. With great respect I would suggest that it is the greatest county in Canada. The tributes which have been paid to-night to one of her great citizens are tributes, not only to Jack Miner but to that county itself. I know the hon. member for Trinity (Mr. Skey) would have liked to join in these tributes to-night but for the fact that he had to leave the ' chamber. Jack Miner by his efforts has written the name of Canada in the skies of the world, and by the tributes we have paid him to-night we have written his name in the history books of our great country.


Mr. D. G. ROSS (St. Paul's):: Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to-night to rise and support the bill proposed by the hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol). All my life I ihave been a sportsman of one kind or another; I am very fond of fishing and of shooting. I knew Jack Miner for a great

many years. I have visited his sanctuary and have fed his ducks when they came around me. One thing he taught me and the youth and people of this country was that sportsmanship did not mean hogging everything; namely, shooting for the sake of shooting or fishing for the sake of fishing. Jack Miner has taught many people that the Christian religion far transcends any form of greed. He has taught -the youth of this country the love of the outdoors; he has taught them how to be temperate in all things that they do.
I venture to say that Jack Miner had more to do than anybody else in the formation of Ducks Unlimited in the northwest territory, the organization which has had so much to do with the increase of the duck population in Canada. He -taught people tha-t the great thing was to play the game for the sake of the game and not just for the sake of winning. Thousands of people have been taught that lesson by Jack Miner.
There is another thing. Jack Miner has, I believe, been more responsible than any other man for plotting the flight of wild life between the north and the south.
I shall not take up any more time, except again to congratulate my hon. friend upon bringing forward this bill, because we all know what a great asset Jack Miner was to Canada. He was not only a great Canadian but an internationalist as well.
Mr. SOLON E. LOW (Peace River):	Mr. Speaker, there is little left for me to say except that I believe that if this house passes this bill it will be a fitting recognition by the members of the work of a great Canadian in this country. I believe also that the introduction of a Jack Miner day throughout Canada and its observance will focus the attention of Canadians from coast to coast upon the constant necessity, of exercising great care in the conservation of our wild life. I wish to commend the hon. member for Davenport, (Mr. MacNicol) upon introducing this bill and to assure you, sir, and him through you, that I will give it my support.


Gordon Graydon: Mr. Speaker, just before the minister rises to close the debate, may I at this late hour, without taking the risk of talking out the bill, simply say that we regard it as vital and that the Progressive Conservative party identifies itself with the moving of the second reading by the hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol) and wholeheartedly supports the proposal he has made.

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James Allison Glen: Mr. Speaker, since it is almost eleven o'clock I move the adjournment of t)he debate.


Gordon Graydon: Just say you will adopt it and we will get it through now.


James Allison Glen: If the house will permit me to go on after eleven o'clock I shall be glad to proceed now.


An hon. MEMBER:: No.
Motion agreed to and debate adjourned.
On motion of Mr. Mackenzie the house adjourned at 10.55 p.m.
Friday, March 29, 1946.