1946-07-22

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk).

Mr. QUELCH:: 1.	What are the names of the members of (a) the board of governors; (b) the executive directors; (c) the managing director of the international monetary fund?
2.	What remuneration is to be paid to the directors and what salary to the managing director?


Mr. MAYHEW:: 1.	(a) Country-Governor-Alternate
Belgium: Camille Gutt, Maurice Frere.
Bolivia: Franklin Antezana Paz.
Brazil: Francisco Alves dos Santos-Filho, Edgard de Mello.
Canada: James L. Ilsley, Graham F. Towers.
Chile: Arturo Maschke.
China: 0. K. Yui, Te-Mou Hsi.
Columbia: Emilio Toro.
Costa Rica: Julio Pena Morua, Angel Coronas Guardia.
Cuba: Joaquin E. Meyer.
Czechoslovakia: Jan Viktor Mladek, Julius Pazman.
Denmark: Carl Valdemar Bramsnaes, Einar Dige.
Dominican Republic: Jesus Maria Troncoso, Jose Calzada.
Ecuador: Esteban F. Carbo.
Egypt: Ahmed Zaki Bey Saad, Mahmoud Saleh El Falaki.
El Salvador: Federico Vides.
Ethiopia: George A. Blowers.
France: Robert Schuman, Pierre Mendes-Erance.
Greece:	Zenophon Zolotas, Alexander
Loverdos.
Guatemala:	Manuel Noriga Morales,
Leonidas Acevedo.
Honduras: Julian R. Caceres, Jorge Fidel Duron.
Iceland: Asgeir Asgeirsson, Thor Thors.
India: Sir Chintaman Deshmukh, Sir A. Samaswami Mudalier.
Iraq: Ali Jawdat, A. M. Gailani.
Luxembourg: Pierre Dupong, Hugues Le Gallais.
Mexico: Antonio Espinosa de los Monteros, Luciano Wiechers.
Netherlands: P. Lieftinck, A. M. de Jong.
Nicaragua: Guillermo Sevilla Sacasa.
Norway: Gunnar Jahn, Ole Colbjomsen.
Panama: Juan Jose Vallarino.

Questions
Paraguay:	Harmodio Gonzalez, Ruben
Benitez.
Peru: Fracisco Tudela, Emilio Barreto.
Philippine Commonwealth: Jaime Hernandez. Carlos R. Romulo.
Poland:	Edward Drozniak, Janusz Zoltowski.
Union -of South Africa:	Jan Hendrik
Hofmeyr, M. H. de Hock.
United Kingdom: Hugh Dalton, Sir James Grigg.
United States of America: John W. Snyder, William L. Clayton.
Uruguay: Hugo Garcia.
Yugoslavia:	Lavoslav Dolinsek, Ivan
Randic.
(b)	Appointed Executive Directors: J. V. Joshi, Y. C. Koo, Jean de Largentaye, Harry D. White, George L. F. Bolton. Elected Executive Directors: J. W. J. Bruins, Rodrigo Gomez, Hubert Ausiaux, J. Y. Mladek, Louis Rasminsky, Ahmed Zaki Bey Saad, Francisco Alves dos Santos-Filho.
(c)	Camille Gutt.
2.	The remuneration to be paid to the directors and the salary of the managing director are provided for in the by-laws of the international monetary fund as adopted by the board of governors, as follows:
Section 14-Terms of service:
(c)	The salary of the managing director shall be $30,000 per annum. The fund shall also pay any reasonable expenses incurred by the managing director in the interest of the fund (including travel and transportation expenses for himself, and expenses for his family, and his personal effects in moving once to the seat of the fund during or immediately before his term of office and in moving once from the seat during or immediately after his term of office). The terms of contract of the managing director shall be five years.
(e)	The maximum salary and expense allowance (including housing, entertainment and all other expenses except those specified in subsection (f)) shall be $17,000 for executive directors and $11,500 for alternates. It will be the duty of each executive director and each alternate to state how much of these amounts he intends to draw whether as salary or as expense allowance.
(f)	The executive directors and their alternates are to be reimbursed, in addition, for all reasonable expenses incurred during absence from the seat of the fund while on the designated service of the fund. They shall also be reimbursed for travel and transportation expenses for themselves, their families, and their personal effects in moving once
to the seat of the fund during or immediately before their terms of office and in moving once from the seat during or immediately after their terms of office.
(g)	Where not specified, it is assumed that the director and alternate will be a full time director and alternate. Where it is intended that he shall not devote his full time, it shall be so indicated. Where an executive director or alternate indicates that he intends to devote only part of his time to the fund, his remuneration shall be pro-rated on the basis of a representation by him of the proportion of his time he has devoted to the interests of the fund. He may make such representation each month.
(h)	Where an individual is serving both fund and bank, the aggregate of salary received from both shall not exceed the full annual single salary indicated above.
The Canadian director of the fund devotes only part of his time to the fund and, in accordance with the instructions given him by the governor for Canada, draws only sufficient of the maximum salary and expense allowance to which he is entitled to cover his expenses while away from Ottawa on the business of the fund.


INTERNATIONAL BANK FOR RECONSTRUCTION AND DEVELOPMENT
Mr. QUELCH:: 1.	What are the names of the members of (a) the board of directors; (b) the executive directors; (c) the president of the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development?
2.	What remuneration is paid to the directors, and what salary to the president?


Mr. MAYHEW:: 1.	(a) Board of Governors and Alternates- Country-Governor-Alternate
Belgium: Franz De Voghel, Maurice Frere.
Bolivia: Franklin Antezana Paz.
Brazil: Francisco Alves dos Santos-Filho, Edgard de Mello.
Canada: James L. Usley, Graham F. Towers.
Chile: Arturo Maschke.
China: 0. K. Yui, Tr-Liang Soong.
Costa Rica:	Julio Pena Morua, Angel
Coronas Guarda.
Cuba: Joaquin E. Meyer.
Czechoslovakia: Alois Krai, Joseph Hanc.
Denmark: Carl Valdemor Bramsnaes, Erling Sveinbj ornsson.
Dominican Republic: Jesus Maria Troncoso, Jose Calzada.
Ecuador: Esteban F. Carbo.
Egypt: Ahmed Zaki Bey Saad1, Mahmoud Saleh El-Falaki.
Questions

El Salvador:	Frederico Vides, Manual
Melendez.
Ethiopia: George A. Blowers.
France: Robert Schuman, Pierre Mendes-France.
Greece:	Xenophon Zolotas, Alexander
Loverdos.
Guatemala:	Manuel Noriega Morales,
Leonidas Acevedo.
Honduras: Julian R. Caceres, Jorge Fidel Duron.
Iceland: Magnus Sigurdsson, Thor Thors.
India: Chintaman Desmukh, N. Sundaresan.
Iran: Abol Hassan Ebtehaj, Taghi Nassr.
Iraq: Ali Jawdat, A. M. Gailani.
Luxembourg: Pierre Dupong, Hugues Le Gallais.
Mexico: Antonio Espinosa de los Monteros, Luciano Wiechers.
Netherlands: P. Lieftinck, A. M. de Jong.
Nicaragua: Guillermo Sevilla Sacasa.
Norway: Gunnar Jahn, Ole Colbjornsen.
Panama: Juan Jose Vallarino.
Paraguay:	Harmodio Gonzalez, Ruben
Benitez.
Philippine Commonwealth: Jose S. Reyes, Joseph H. Foley.
Poland:	Waclaw Konderski, Janusz
Zoltowski.
Union of South Africa: Jan Hendrik Hof-meyr, M. H. de Kock.
United Kingdom: Hugh Dalton, Sir James Grigg.
United States of America: John W. Snyder, William L. Clayton.
Uruguay:	Hugo Garcia.
Yugoslavia: LavoslavDolinsek,Ivan Randic.
Peru: Carlos Montero Bernales, Jose Bar-reda Moller.
(b)	Appointed Executive Directors: Emilio G. Collado, Sir James Grigg, Pierre Mendes-France, Yuen-Ting Shen, N. Sundaresan.
Elected Executive Directors: Leon Baranski, J. W. Beyen, R. B. Bryce, Hubert Ansiaux, Luis Machado, Victor Moller, Kyriakos Varvaressos.
(c)	Eugene Meyer.
2.	The remuneration to be paid to the directors and the salary to the president are provided for in the by-laws of the International bank for reconstruction and development as approved by the board of governors, as follows: Section 14-terms of service:
(c) The salary of the president shall be $30,000 per annum. The bank shall also pay any reasonable expenses incurred by the president in the interest of the bank (including travel and transportation expenses for himself, and expenses for his family, and his personal effects in moving once to the seat of the bank

during or immediately before his term of office and in moving once from the seat during or immediately after his term of office). The terms of contract of the president shall be five years.
(e)	The maximum salary and expense allowance, including housing, entertainment and all other expenses except those specified in subsection (f) shall be $17,000 for executive directors and Sltl,500 for alternates. It will be the duty of each executive director and each alternate to state how much of these amounts he intends to draw whether as salary or as expense allowance.
(f)	The executive directors and their alternates are to be reimbursed, in addition, for all reasonable expenses incurred during absence from the seat of the bank while on the designated service of the bank. They shall also be reimbursed for travel and transportation expenses for themselves, their families, and their personal effects in moving once to the seat of the bank during or immediately before their terms of office and in moving once from the seat during or immediately after their terms of office.
(g)	Where not specified, it is assumed that the direction and alternate will be a full-time director and alternate. Where it is intended that he shall not devote his full time, it shall be so indicated. Where an executive director or alternate indicates that he intends to devote only part of his time to the bank, his remuneration shall be pro-rated on the basis of a representation by him of the proportion of his time he has devoted to the interests of the bank. He may make such representation each month.
(h)	Where an individual is serving both fund and bank, the aggregate of salary received from both shall not exceed the full annual single salary indicated above.
The Canadian director of the bank devotes only part of his time to the bank and, in accordance with the instructions given him by the governor for Canada, draws only sufficient of the maximum salary and expense allowance to which he is entitled to cover Ids expenses while away from Ottawa on the business of the bank.


SALES OF GOLD
Mr. ADAMSON:: 1.	To what other countries besides the United States of America did Canada or any agent of the government of Canada sell gold during the fiscal years 1943, 1944, 1945?
2.	What price was obtained in each transaction?

Questions


Mr. MAYHEW:: 1.	Any gold sold by the government of Canada or any agent of the government of Canada during the fiscal years 1943, 1944 and 1945 was sold to the government or central bank of a foreign country. As such transactions reflect the exchange policies and transactions of foreign countries or central banks, it is not considered desirable to give details regarding them.
2.	All sales of gold made by the government of Canada or any agent of the government of Canada during the period mentioned have been based on the price of 135 United States per fine ounce in New York, with appropriate adjustments for transportation and handling charges.


INCOME TAX-MARRIED STATUS
Mr. GRAYDON:: How many income tax payers in Canada are denied the right to claim for married status while maintaining a self-contained domestic establishment?


Mr. McCANN:: Information not available.


GREENWOOD, B.C., JAPANESE RELOCATION CENTRE- C. L. COWDRILL
Mr. STIRLING:: 1.	On what day of what year did Mr. C. L. Cowdrill become (a) assistant supervisor; (b) supervisor of the Greenwood, British Columbia, Japanese relocation centre?
2.	What experience had he to receive such an appointment?
3.	Have any complaints been received about him as assistant supervisor or supervisor?
4.	(a) If so. how many were by (a) Japanese themselves; (b) native population; (c) what action was taken?
Mr. MITCHELL;
1.	(a) Assistant supervisor-September 1, 1942; (b) Supervisor-February 1, 1945.
2.	Had previous experience in commercial life, more especially, in wholesale hardware, builders and plumbers' supplies.
Employed at Hastings Park assembly centre-April-August, 1942.
3 and 4. No complaints have come to the attention of the departmental officials responsible for Japanese administration.
RADIO BROADCASTING-STATIONS CKY and CKX


Mr. THATCHER:: 1.	Have the licences of radio stations CKY, Winnipeg, and CKX, Brandon, been cancelled or relinquished?
2.	If so, at what date?
3.	If not. what is the present status of these stations?


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	Negotiations have been initiated regarding conditions under which these stations might be transferred to the national system.


LABOUR CONDITIONS-INTERNATIONAL TYPOGRAPHICAL UNION AND SOUTHAM NEWSPAPERS
Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	Is the Minister of Labour taking any further steps to bring together the parties to the dispute between the International Typographical Union and the Southam and other newspapers?
2.	Have any recommendations concerning this dispute been made to the government by the commission of which Brigadier Sherwood Lett, K.C., is chairman? If so, what are the recommendations?


Mr. MITCHELL:: The Department of
Labour has brought the parties together through commissioners and otherwise on several occasions and is still willing to lend the services of its conciliation officers if requested by the parties.
A short time ago on the request of the Honourable Mr. Pearson, minister of labour for British Columbia, I appointed Brigadier Sherwood Lett, K.C., as chairman of an industrial disputes inquiry commission to investigate the dispute between the Vancouver Province and its printers, members of the international typographical union. I am at present awaiting the report of this commission.


NATIONAL REGISTRATION CARDS
Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	Are the registration cards issued during the war still in use? If so, for what purpose?
2.	How many prosecutions under the law governing these took place in each of the provinces in 1946?


Mr. MITCHELL:: 1. The national registration cards (certificates) issued during the war are still in use.
The principal purposes for continuing the use of the certificates are: (a) So that the registration records from which much information is still being supplied may be kept as up to date as possible; (b) The certificates are still being used for identification purposes by the national employment service and other governmental agencies; (c) To assist the authorities in clearing up unfinished cases and investigations of desertions from the armed forces, defaults and delinquencies under the national resources mobilization regulations, the defence of Canada regulations and other wartime controls.

Questions as Orders for Returns
2. Very few prosecutions have been made or instituted since January 1, 1946. The exact total of such cases is not available as the provincial and municipal law enforcement authorities do not report all cases to the dominion authorities.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: 1.	What is the tonnage of bituminous coal shipped to Canada from the United States for each of the years since 1939?
2.	What is the tonnage of bituminous coal shipped to Canada from the United States for April, May and June for each such year including 1946?
3.	What :s the expected shipment of bituminous coal from the United States to Canada during July, 1946?


CIVIL SERVANTS EMPLOYED AS OF JULY 1, 1946
Mr. McKAY:: 1.	What is the number of (a) male; (b) female, civil servants employed by the federal government as of July 1, 1946?
2.	How many of these (a) male; (b) female, are veterans of either world war I or II?



LOANS TO OTHER GOVERNMENTS-MARINE INSURANCE

Mr. WEBB:: When loans are made by the Canadian government to empire and foreign governments for the purchase of supplies in Canada, what steps are taken by the government to see that marine insurance is purchased in Canada?



VETERANS LAND ACT-PURCHASE OF FARMS IN CUMBERLAND COUNTY, N.S.

Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: 1.	How many farms have been purchased in Cumberland county, Nova Scotia, under the Veterans Land Act?
2.	Where are these farms located, when and from whom were they purchased?
3.	What is the acreage and what price was paid for each such farm, and what has been the total cost to the government of upkeep, improvements and equipment for such property?
4.	What are the names of the veterans now established on these farms?


Mr. TUCKER:: This can stand as an order for return, subject to the reservation that the price will not be given for each item of land purchased.


Mr. HOMUTH:: Why cannot the price be given?


Walter Adam Tucker: I have already given the reason to the house on several occasions. It is not considered to be in the best interests

of the veterans that individual prices should be given in all these cases, because it would have an effect upon future purchases of land in the particular area.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER:: Order for return, subject to the reservation made by the parliamentary assistant.



VETERANS LAND ACT-PURCHASE OF LAND IN AMHERST AND SPRINGHILL, N.S.

Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: 1.	Has the government purchased land in the towns of Amherst and Springbill under the Veterans Land Act or other government measure ?
2.	If so, from whom were purchases made and what is the area; the price, and the expenditures made for improvements since purchased?
3.	Who recommended the purchases and were the Canadian Legion, the local boards of trade or town councils consulted?
4.	Were the properties sub-divided, plans made for buildings and construction authorized? If so, at what cost and with whom was work contracted?
5.	Has any portion of the properties been resold or offered for sale? If so, to whom and at what price?


Walter Adam Tucker: Order for return, subject to the reservation made in relation to the preceding question.



MOTION FOR PAPERS


Mr. IRVINE:: For a copy of all correspondence since June 1. 1946, exchanged between the Minister of Justice and Mr. Fred Rose, M.P.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Acting Prime Minister) moved:
That on and after Tuesday, July 23. 1946, until the end of the session, the house shall meet at 11 o'clock in the morning of each sitting day and that in addition to the usual intermission at 6 o'clock p.m.. there shall be an intermission every day from 1 to 3 o'clock p.m.
He said: Mr. Speaker, in proposing this motion it is not the intention of the government to force its own views upon the house, but rather to afford to hon. members an opportunity for making known whether or not they feel that the time has arrived when we should have the house sitting three times a day. There still remains a lot of work to be done. Some of the measures yet to be dealt with seem to be non-contentious. Some of the legislation has already been very carefully considered in the sittings of standing or

Morning Sittings
select committees and should not take up much mere of the time of the house. There is, of course, other legislation which some hon. members will require to have further debated in the house. It is apparent that no matter how many hours a day the house sits it will still be a matter not of days but of weeks before we can get through the work that remains to be done, giving it that care which it is necessary in the public interest that it should receive.
The question raised by this motion is whether we should at once begin morning sittings and endeavour to give more time to the work of the house than has been given up to the present. I realize that that does not mean giving more time to the business of the session, because the committees have been sitting not only in the morning but even while the house is sitting, as we have noticed from the sparse attendance at times in the house. But a large number of hon. members have let it be known that they thought we should be apt to expedite the work of the house if we began now sitting three times a day. If it is the wish of hon. members that that be done, the adoption of this motion will provide for it. If on the other hand hon. members feel that we should still go on with two instead of three sittings a day, the government will be pleased to have those views expressed and will endeavour to have the decision made one that will appeal to the largest number of hon. members.
Mr. JOHN BRACKEN (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, it is not clear from the resolution whether it is the government's intention to have the house sit on Wednesday evening as well.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: No; there is a special rule which deals with Wednesday evening, and I have heard strong objections voiced to taking away the Wednesday evening-not that hon. members want to use it for social purposes, but they feel that they should have a break in the middle of the week to enable them to consider what they have done in the preceding days of the week and what remains to be done on the other days so as to be in better shape to deal with it.


John Bracken: If the leader of the government feels that to have the house sit in the mornings as well as in the afternoons and evenings every day except Wednesday and Saturday will expedite the business of the house, this party will offer no objection.


Mr.  M. J. COLD WELL@Rosetown-Biggar: Mr. Speaker, in previous sessions this resolution has been introduced at a stage when
the end of the session was pretty well in sight, but as I look over the order paper to-day and see the amount of business still to be done I realize that we are a long way from concluding the work of the session. The estimates have, I was going to say, scarcely been touched. That is not quite correct, but only two or three departments have been pretty fully considered; there remain fifteen or sixteen departments still to go into. I do not want to do anything that will delay a conclusion of the session's business, and I am not particularly opposing this motion, but I would point out that there are still a number of committees sitting and it is difficult for hon. members who are on committees to find time to attend the sittings of the house three times a day. But members of the house have been here now for a good many weeks; some who are married and have families would like to have at least one week of the summer free to enjoy it with their families, and therefore I shall not oppose the resolution.
Mr. SOLON E. LOW (Peace River): Mr. Speaker, we are ready to support the resolution, but I think it ought to be understood that the legislative programme of the government has pretty well been brought in. I should not like to think that after we start to sit mornings in addition to two other sittings a day the government might bring in new legislation every day or two. The Acting Prime Minister should give us the assurance that the legislative programme of the government is now before us.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: On that point I have nothing to add, as nothing to my knowledge has developed since the statement made by the Prime Minister in the house when he enumerated the matters still to be considered by the house.


Mr. ANGUS MacINNIS (Vancouver East):: Mr. Speaker, I do not want to prolong the discussion, but I feel that members have been sent here to do a job, and we are not in any more difficulties in working here than the rank and file of the people of Canada who voted for us are in pursuing their own particular vocations at home, wherever and whatever they may be. I believe there are other ways of expediting the business of the house besides rushing the members in three daily sittings. One would be for members to discipline themselves in the amount of time occupied in debate and discussion in the two sittings of the house; if we did that we would' get more work done than by sitting three times a day. Many members of the house are on committees which are now sitting three times a day. I appreciate the way in which the
Official Secrets Act

Acting Prime Minister has put this matter to the house, and while I do not want to say that I am opposed to the motion, I wish to suggest that we should be careful to discipline ourselves when we come to deal with the business before the house.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Bracken: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Acting Prime Minister if he now knows what action is proposed by the government in respect of the report of the royal commission on the public service of Canada?
Right Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Acting Prime Minister): The report of the royal commission on the public service was made available to the members of the government only a few hours before it was made available to the members of the house. Each one has been asked to consider it, but there has been no opportunity yet for an exchange of views upon it, and therefore I am not in a position , to make announcement of any decision.



OFFICIAL SECRETS ACT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Bracken: May I ask a question of the Acting Prime Minister in his capacity as Minister of Justice? I have not had an opportunity to give him notice of the question, and if he is not in a position to answer it now perhaps he will do so to-morrow. What further action is proposed by the government in respect of the recommendations and findings of the royal commission on espionage?
Right Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Minister of Justice): I do not think that I should be in any better position to answer the question to-morrow than I am now. The report went to the law officers of the crown. With the assistance of counsel they considered it and have already come to the conclusion that charges should be laid against five of the persons mentioned in the report. They are now considering the report and the evidence on which it is based in connection with the cases of one Doctor Shugar and one Miss Agatha Chapman, and they have not yet reported any conclusion to me upon their study.



NEGOTIATIONS BETWEEN BRITISH AND CANADIAN GOVERNMENTS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr.  M. J. COLD WELL@Rosetown-Biggar: May I ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce whether he has any statement to make on the progress of negotiations for a wheat agreement with Great Britain? There was something over the air this morning concerning the matter.


Hon. J. A. MacKINNON (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: I hope to have an announcement within the next forty-eight hours.



TRAVEL ABROAD PASSPORTS TO EUROPE-CONDITIONS AFFECTING RETURN JOURNEY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. K. FRASER (Peterborough West):: I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Mines and Resources. Some months ago there was a ruling that every woman applying for a passport to travel to Europe had to say that she would not return for a period of at least a year. The Prime Minister made a statement in the house and said that the ruling was off; but during the past week an applicant for a passport for travel across the Atlantic or Pacific, whether man or woman, has to fill in a form which states this:
I fully realize the difficulty in obtaining Atlantic and Pacific transportation and that it is unlikely that I shall be able to return to Canada for many months.
I recognize that the issuance of a passport to me does not obligate the government of Canada to undertake any responsibility with regard to my transportation either from or to Canada.
I wish to know from the minister why such a statement is required before one can get a passport. The information should be made public, because members are receiving letters on the subject.


Hon. J. A. GLEN (Minister of Mines and Resources):: The hon. gentleman is referring, I assume, to the period when exit permits were required. At that time there was no possible chance of anyone travelling from Canada to Europe being able to get back in the same year; therefore in view of the shipping situation an undertaking was given by those who did go that they did not expect to return for a certain time. I have no knowledge of a ruling of the passport office such as has been cited, but I assume the same idea is behind the requirement, that anyone

Homing Act
going now cannot expect to get priority on return sailings. However, I will look into the matter.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr.  M. J. COLD WELL@Rosetown-Biggar: I notice that the question asked on Thursday by the hon. member for Yorkton regarding "war assets-sales over $4,000 to firms, corporations or individuals", which was ordered to stand, did not appear on the order paper on Friday and is not on the order paper to-day. I respectfully draw that to your attention, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and hope that you will draw His Honour the Speaker's attention to the matter, so that we may receive an early explanation.


William Ross Macdonald: I can assure the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar that Mr. Speaker has this matter under advisement. He is expected to return to Ottawa to-morrow, when I shall be pleased to bring the matter to his attention.



NATIONAL HOUSING ACT


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Reconstruction and Supply) moved that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to present a measure to amend the National Housing Act, 1944, and more particularly:
(1)	to provide for changes in the administration of the existing housing legislation, consequent rewording of definitions and references throughout the Act;
(2)	to provide for His Majesty to join with approved lending institutions in the making of loans for the construction of homes for home owners who have a leasehold interest only in the land upon which the home is to be built and to take security in such form as may be deemed necessary to protect the interest of His Majesty and the lending institution;
_ (3) to lengthen the period within which a joint loan to home owners may be repaid from twenty years to twenty-five years;
(4) to authorize Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation on behalf of His Majesty to enter into agreements with builders who "will undertake to build a specified number of houses to be financed under the National Housing Act, 1944, and to offer each such house for sale first to veterans and then to others at a price not in excess of the selling price fixed in the agreement in consideration for the undertaking of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation to purchase such houses from the builders within one year from their completion if they have not been sold;
(5) to authorize Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation to make direct loans in outlying areas to borrowers engaged in mining or lumbering, to assist them to provide low or moderate-cost housing for rent or sale to their employees and others in the area of the operations of the borrowers with a view to making possible increased employment in connection with the said operations;
_ (6) to authorize Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation to hold, operate and manage and lease on terms satisfactory to the minister, real or personal property owned by His Majesty and made available to the corporation for such purpose, and to authorize the corporation to collect the revenues from such properties and to pay such revenues to the minister, less expenses incurred in connection with such properties and less such compensation to Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation as may be agreed upon by the minister;
(7) to provide greater facility for the making of joint loans for the construction on farms.
He said: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this legislation is to introduce certain amendments to the National Housing Act, 1944. The aim of these amendments is to make the National Housing Act as effective legislation as possible. The changes are suggested in the light of experience gained in administering the act under present economic and social conditions. The amendments are also necessitated by the transfer of the administration of the National Housing Act from the Minister of Finance to the Central Mortgage and Housing corporation.	'
This occasion, I believe, calls for a comprehensive statement on housing conditions in Canada and the principles that underlie the housing policy of the dominion government.
The housing problem during the first few years following Y-J day is an emergency problem resulting from almost six years of war and the low level of house-building in the years prior to the war. The immediate task, therefore, is to increase the supply of shelter with the replacement and improvement of existing housing being deferred until the immediate housing emergency has been overcome. Overcrowding existed before the war and so did slums. The need for concentrating all available resources, manpower, industrial capacity and natural resources to the prosecution of the war made it necessary to postpone to the years of peace any large scale measures to alleviate these conditions.
Before proceeding to analyse our present housing situation and to indicate the goals which we have set ourselves, I would like to review some of the background for hon. members. The largest number of houses built during the inter-war years was in 1928, when some 50,200 units were built in urban areas alone. But five years later this number was down to some 14,000 units. The average num-
Housing Act
[Stage Direction]
ber of houses built in urban areas in Canada during the years 1924-1939 was 32,000. This house-building activity was below that of the United States and England and Wales. If adjustments are made for differences in population, a comparable figure for the United States during the same period would be 42,000 units and for England and Wales, 63,000.
The lack of new houses in the thirties, the migration of munition workers to cities and towns during the war, an increased rate of family formation since 1939, and the impropriety of diverting labour and materials from the prosecution of the war even for housing, are the reasons for the present aggravated shortage of housing now.
During the first few war years, increased individual incomes had caused sufficient undoubling to do away with vacancies, despite large numbers of men enlisting in the armed forces reducing the number of families requiring separate premises. What has happened since then is familiar to all of us. Greatly increased personal incomes have reduced even further voluntary multiple occupancy. House building was at a relatively low level owing to the need for materials for essential war purposes. It was not until 1944 that there was an appreciable number of houses built. Then came demobilization with the very real need for dwellings for veterans who were reunited with their families. Already a need for housing units was being occasioned by the arrival of war brides in Canada. The continued high level of individual incomes was providing extra demands for housing. There was a continuation of the very high marriage rate with the result that net family formation was about twice that of 1939.
This, generally, was our position on Y-E day, when we set a target of 50,000 housing units for the first full construction year after V-E day. Considering our needs for manpower and materials required for the prosecution of the war and the partial reconversion of industry, the target set was a formidable one for the house-building industry which had been accustomed to an average annual construction of about 32,000 units. The early conclusion of the war in the Pacific made it possible to aim at the completion of 50,000 units during the first year following V-E day, that is, from May, 1945 to May, 1946, instead of the first full construction year which would have been the calendar year 1946. According to a survey made by the dominion bureau of statistics, some 47,000 units were completed during the calendar year 1945. Present indications are that during the'first year following

V-E day we have substantially met the target of 50,000 units. This has been a creditable performance by the house-building industry.
As at March, 1946, our minimum immediate housing needs were estimated at 150,000 housing units. This figure is equal to the number of houses which under normal conditions would have been built during the war years to keep up with the increase in the number of families. It does not take account of our needs for the replacement of substandard homes, a certain amount of overcrowding that existed before the war and a desirable vacancy rate. This figure is supported by the results of a survey on doubling-up undertaken by the dominion bureau of statistics in the spring of this year. This survey showed some 210,000 single housing units occupied by more than one family. There is some voluntary doubling-up, and the figure of 150,000 units suggested represents the minimum number required to meet our immediate shelter problem.
Starting with an immediate deficit of 150,000 units in the spring of 1946, we must add
15.000	units for the needs created by men to be discharged and repatriated from the armed services. We must also allow for an extra demand of some 15,000 units on account of
30.000	war brides, all of whom will have come to Canada before spring of 1947. Experience has shown that about half the war brides create a need for additional housing units. We must also take into account the very high marriage rate which continues to exist in Canada. It is estimated that in 1946 there will be some 105,000 marriages. Family dissolution continues at a rate of about 25,000. Net family formation is, therefore, taking place at the rate of about 80,000, of which perhaps 60 per cent creates a need for new family housing units. From these new requirements over the next year, we can subtract some 50,000-60,000 units completed during the year ending March, 1947.
I believe that these figures and estimates, although approximate, are valid and that we can anticipate by spring, 1947, an immediate housing deficit of some 180,000 units, or a worsening of the situation by some 20 per cent.
Steps are being taken to keep this deficit as low as possible, and I will refer to them later in my remarks. I should be remiss in my responsibilities if at this time I painted a happy picture in the housing field or suggested that immediate relief was in sight. I anticipate that a critical period will occur in the late fall of 1946, when some of the relief now afforded by the occupation of summer

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residences will be lacking. Once again existing housing, particularly in urban areas, will be carrying the full impact of people returning to town. Already the sponge-like qualities of our urban areas are being taxed to the limit. Relief can come only from new housing units completed during the year.
What is a reasonable estimate of housing needs for the five years ending spring, 1952? Even over as short a period as five years, there are many contingencies and uncertainties which have an important bearing upon the estimate and indeed make any such estimate hazardous. The level of national income over the next five years will, perhaps, be a most important influence, not only on the probable level of new housing during that period, but also upon the need for new units. The rate of recognition of obsolescence and depreciation will be another important factor. The taste in housing of the average citizen will also have a bearing.
The advisory committee on reconstruction in its report, commonly known as the Curtis report, indicated that the desirable housing programme for the first ten years following the conclusion of the war would be 700,000 units or 350,000 units for a five-year period. But this estimate does not take account of all the doubling-up which we are experiencing and a desirable vacancy rate needed to assure flexibility in our housing supply. If account of these additional factors is taken, we estimate that we should build some 480,000 units during the five years ending March, 1952. About 80,000 units should be built during 1947-1948 and 100,000 in each of the following years. While this appears to be a very substantial target for the house-building industry whose present capacity is perhaps only a little more than half, I submit that such a target can be accomplished if we make an all-out effort on the housing front. As I shall outline, the dominion government is creating conditions favourable to a large housing programme by private individuals and companies in Canada. While the dominion government will continue to give as much assistance as possible, both financial and physical, it is necessary for industry itself to increase its capacity to meet the housing needs of the country in the years to come.
On April 29, the Prime Minister advised the house that centralization and coordination of our housing programme was to be accomplished by placing all matters relating to housing, with the exception of the strictly rural activities of the Veterans' Land Act, under the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply. The effect of this change transferred the functions
of the Department of Finance in the housing field to the Department of Reconstruction and Supply. It also occasioned an arrangement between myself and my colleague, the Minister of Veterans Affairs-an arrangement. whereby new small holdings under the Veterans Land Act with any urban characteristics were cleared with my department. The purpose underlying this move was to bring within a unified operating group all dominion government participation in the field of housing.
Since the Prime Minister's announcement, we have moved towards further coordination. The housing problem resolves itself definitely into two parts-the supply of building materials, and the mode of operations. With respect to supply, an executive committee on building materials is now active. It is .made up of the priorities officer, the coordinator of capital equipment and durable goods of the wartime prices and trade board, and the coordinator of housing. This committee is charged with the responsibility of coordinating with the building industry the increased supply of building materials, particularly those of a critical nature. They are busy on the reclamation of existing materials, as well as the coordination of priorities and controls. They are seeking to obtain the best use of the supply of building materials in the interest of housing as well as the industrial and commercial building required to maintain a high level of employment and income.
In the field of operations the dominion's activities have been centralized in Central Mortgage and Housing corporation. In addition to administering the National Housing Act, the corporation is responsible for emergency sheLter and the home conversion plan. It also directs policy and activities of Wartime Housing Limited. These steps have been taken in order to create a unified operating group in the housing field. As such, it serves an immediately important purpose in that provinces, municipalities and individuals interested in housing will deal with one agency. In the same way, the activities of field representatives will be coordinated and they will be in a position to deal with provinces and municipalities and others. Already savings in personnel have been effected. It is not planned to amalgamate the personnel of Wartime Housing Limited with the Central Mortgage and Housing corporation immediately, but a coordination of policy and a single direction has now been accomplished. The changes do not alter the operation of the Veterans Land Act either in administration or policy, but they do coordinate the operation of the small holdings provision of that act in those areas
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in which Wartime Housing and the National Housing Act are active. These changes have assisted us in setting up an integrated administrative machinery which we believe will work well to administer the housing policy of the government.
Just as plant capacity was strained to produce the implements required for war, so now, in the interest of speed in meeting housing targets, it will be necessary to strain all available capacity to produce adequate supplies of building materials. Operating of building materials industries under forced draft will mean the difference between the success or failure of the programme this year. Extra costs may foe involved in obtaining increased output and, if so, the government is prepared to consider meeting these costs. Where plant expansion is necessary to eliminate materials bottlenecks, the method used to stimulate expansion of war plants will be made available.
In this connection, I referred on April 29 to an order in council which extends to March 31, 1948, the period during which proposed plant expansion must be undertaken or new equipment acquired under the provision of the "double depreciation" method of financially assisting Canadian industries in their reconversion programmes.
The need for housing is so great that it is desirable that industrial projects should be limited to those which are urgent from the point of view of employment. The action referred to removes the possibility that industrial projects will be rushed forward to qualify for the double depreciation privilege. It is hoped that this will permit the postponement of some projects which involve extensive construction until the supply situation is less acute. Extension of the period for double depreciation is expected to have a salutary effect on residential construction.
Double depreciation certificates do not carry any priorities with respect to building materials or equipment, and they do not in any way interfere with the power of the individual municipalities to issue or withhold at their discretion building permits to cover such work.
This brings me to another important point. On April 1, I tabled a copy of order in council PjC. 1184, of March 27, which provided for municipal control of non-essential or industrial construction. Since then several municipalities have alleged that the government has tried to evade the issue on this score. I can assure hon. members that there was no intention of evading the issue. Rather it was looked upon as a logical approach to a complex problem. The government felt, and still feels, that municipal authorities are in a

much better position to determine the essentiality of new construction in their own districts.
In this connection I should point out that all areas are getting their share of building materials under equitable distribution methods administered by the wartime prices and trade board in the same manner as that in which all other scarce supplies are distributed in Canada. Quotas are calculated on purchases during the base period and all distribution, whether to large or small towns, is on that basis.
In describing the supply situation on building materials, I can say that the first five months of 1946 showed a noteworthy performance on the part of the building materials industry. The extent to which the encouraging trend of increased production is affected, or will be affected, by prevailing conditions cannot be estimated at this time. If those conditions should continue for any lengthy period, with a consequent sharp effect on the supply of building materials, the housing programme in Canada would be set back to a degree, the gravity of which may only be appreciated in full during the coming winter.
I should like to acknowledge with appreciation the valuable and untiring help of a special committee on materials formed by courtesy of the Canadian Construction association. This committee has made a series of recommendations and observations. Officials of my department have taken these recommendations, designed to increase the supply of building materials, and, where it is feasible to do so, have already taken direct action or are carrying on discussions designed to bring about an increase in supply. . I have a wholehearted appreciation of the task which is being assumed in Canada to-day by the building materials industry, and I should like to acknowledge publicly the appreciation which hon. members must feel toward this industry, which, on its own initiative, has generally succeeded in increasing its capacity. It is being asked to meet a housing target greater than the greatest house-building year on record, and is being asked to meet that objective under conditions not conducive to the attainment of record production. I feel that with certain exceptions, upon which we are concentrating, the industry is capable of accepting, and is prepared to accept, the task-and no one can have a warmer admiration than myself for the effort being directed toward the fulfilment of this task.
The increased production of building materials, particularly those of a critical nature, spells the difference between success or failure of the housing programme. With the solution

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of this problem, or with the maximum amount of relief capable of being given under existing conditions, the great proportion of other problems are in themselves brought closer to solution.
In brief, the government is now taking steps to increase the production of building materials, especially those of a critical nature, to reclaim to the maximum extent materials in government buildings, to encourage the import of such materials as are essential to the housing programme and are unobtainable in Canada, and to seek to obtain the best use of the available supply of building materials in the interest of housing and such industrial and commercial projects as are required to assure a high level of employment and income.
I am quoting the supply situation in terms of comparative percentages, since I believe that hon. members might find it simpler to appreciate the trend in the production of building materials.
The supply of cement and cement products is moving steadily forward. Production volume is the highest since 1931. Production of cement during January 1946 was 59 per cent in excess of the corresponding month of 1945 and was being produced at a per annum volume rate of approximately 9,000,000 barrels. By May 1946 the monthly production had again increased so as to raise the per annum volume to a figure somewhat over 10,000,000 barrels. Cement products were following a proportionate trend as instanced by concrete blocks, cement drain pipe, sewer pipe, water pipe and culvert tile.
Clay products are following an encouraging trend in regard to brick and structural tile. January 1946 saw an increase in the production of building brick of 73 per cent over the corresponding month of 1945. April 1946 shows a 100 per cent increase over January 1945. The month of May has continued this upward trend and itself shows a 50 per cent increase over the preceding month of April. Quite naturally this is a seasonal increase, but a 50 per cent production increase in one month is an encouraging position.
The position with respect to vitrified sewer pipe and flue linings has not offered the same measure of encouragement but is being watched closely and given the fullest attention. Conversations are now going on to facilitate the reentry into production of a plant, the capacity of which should be capable of providing extensive relief to this situation. Production of flue linings showed increases during April 1946 but declined in May and measures are being taken to hold the prior increase. Production of vitrified sewer pipe for the months
of April and May declined slightly, but is still measurably in advance of production in January and February of this year.
Sand-lime brick production is also moving upward. Production in May 1946 shows a slight increase over April output but a 100 per cent increase over the 1945 monthly average.
Rock wool products are being maintained although May production showed what is hoped to be a temporary decline only. Generally speaking, production is keeping pace with shipments although it will be realized that the ability to create any stockpile under existing circumstances is well-nigh impossible. This latter statement is one which I might make applicable to the entire supply situation in terms of building materials. Domestic disappearance under prevailing conditions precludes now, and for some time to come, any likelihood of a stock position being created.
Granulated wool, bulk or loose wool, and industrial wool follow the same pattern of production as that described for rock wool batts.
Gypsum products are generally maintaining or exceeding the production figures reached during the war-time years. Production of wall board in March 1946 reached a figure which, on per annum volume, is equal to the highest annual production of gypsum wall board ever attained. May production, however, has in itself shown a 12J per cent increase over that of March. The production of gypsum lath appears to be paralleling shipments, but has not yet permitted the creation of any significant stockpile position. The production of gypsum plaster is running steadily at a figure approximately 100 per cent higher than the 1944 average which is almost the highest year on record.
The output of asphalt products is either being maintained or increased, and appears to be meeting the required shipping demands, although fluctuations occurred in the various products within the group. The monthly production rate of asphalt shingles in May exceeded the 1945 monthly average by 70 per cent. There have been steady increases in smooth surfaced and mineral surfaced rolls, while the production of tar and asphalt sheathings remains constant.
The iron and steel industry has shown a substantially higher output of galvanized sheets and of steel pipes, tubes and fittings, and a slight improvement in the production of soil pipe and of nails. Taking these various items in more detail, I mention, first, cast-iron soil pipe and fittings. Production of cast-iron soil pipe and fittings has been mounting steadily, month after month, through 1945
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and 1946. In the month of May 1946, the rate, when averaged over a yearly period, is 32 per cent above the 1945 average. There is every reason to believe that this upward trend will not only continue, but may show a sharper rise in the near future. The committee on materials has made recommendations designed toward the increase of soil pipe production. These recommendations are now actively under consideration and it is felt that their implementation should offer early relief to the supply situation, as it concerns soil pipe and fittings. Production of sheet steel is constant but limited to one mill on hot-rolled and one mill on cold-rolled, the product of the latter being largely applied to tin plate for food processing. Stocks of sheet steel have 'been declining steadily and the warehouses are practically denuded of both black and galvanized sheet. While the production of black steel sheeting declined during the month of April 1946, stocks at the end of that month were equivalent to more than two months' output at the current rate. At the same time, April production of galvanized steel sheeting increased considerably and stocks show a 50 per cent increase, although still not equivalent to more than a part of a month's production. The output of steel pipes, tubes and fittings almost doubled during the month of April, as contrasted with the month of March 1946, although May 1946 experienced a slight decline. The output on steel pipes, tubes and fittings represents a recovery on production from a sharp decline in March 1946. January of this year showed a very satisfactory upward trend and it had been hoped that the current production figure would show a return to the monthly output at the first of the year. Prevailing conditions may require a complete reassessment of this hope. Wrought iron pipes, tubes and fittings saw a January production more than double the December 1945 tonnage, which January figure approached the total production for the year 1944. February of this year saw a 30 per cent increase over the January figure. Production in March and April of 1946 has declined. The production of wire nails and spikes during the month of January 1946, was 23 per cent above the month of January 1945, and 10 per cent above the 1945 monthly average. Declining slightly in February and March of this year, it has now, in May 1946, exceeded the monthly output of the first part of the year.
Our early estimates of steel production and imports were altered considerably by the steel strike in the United States, which, followed

by the coal strike, resulted in a fuel shortage which caused a reduction in steel production to make coke available for domestic use.
In the matter of plumbing and heating equipment, there is an encouraging trend in a forward direction. Production of lead pipe for water service has moved up sharply since the first of the year and showed better than a 600 per cent increase in March 1946 over January of this year. Most of this increase has been maintained in April and May. The production of copper tubing had moved steadily forward throughout the first four months of this year. This output, however, is necessarily subject to prevailing conditions and the effect of curtailment of production will inevitably be felt in the near future. Production of warm air furnaces is moving forward and is at present maintaining an average yearly production rate of some 44,500 units, which is 73 per cent above 1944 production, the latest annual figure available. Domestic heating boiler (both hot water and steam), is equalling all-time highs. Cast-iron radiation is being produced at an increasing rate since the first of this year and is now 30 per cent, above the 1944 average monthly production, the latest annual production figure available. The same remark might be applied in general to the production of hot water storage tanks (range boilers), and all types of hot water tank heaters.
I shall speak now of the supply of electrical fixtures, or materials. As to wire, more properly known as non-metallic sheathed cable, the scarcity is founded on the shortage of cotton yarn which is used to cover the wire. This is a difficulty which has been known and which has been coped with from the outset, according to the best possible means. Consequently, our efforts have been devoted to a solution of the cotton yarn problem-yarn of a nature required to cover non-metallic sheathed cable. This involves diversion of cotton yarn from other electric wire but is being done-and has already resulted in 100 per cent May increase, over April, in the one re rin size on which production had lagged. Prevailing conditions with respect to copper and textiles production have affected a situation with respect to wire which should have been relieved considerably during the summer months and should have been overcome by Fall. Rubber coated double braided wire has shown a 77 per cent increase in production within the latter three months of 1946.
Rigid galvanized steel conduit is in short supply owing to our dependence on imports from the United States in the manufacture of steel pipe. Conditions beyond our control have had a serious effect on the supply of those-

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materials required. In support of galvanized steel conduit supply, some substitutions may be necessary. The possibility of doing this is now under investigation and a source of alternative supply is presently visualized.
The production of switches, panels and receptacles moved steadily forward with each succeeding month through May 1946.
The production of sanitary ware finds shipments following production closely, with stocks at a relatively low figure. Over-all production is fairly stable, but in so far as the smaller pieces are concerned, is usually subject to peaks and valleys. Emphasis on the production of a particular line of small ware in any one month usually produces an adverse effect in the production of another type. The production of bathtubs remains generally constant. The government has already instituted action to increase the supply of bathtubs, sinks, wash basins and toilets, and there is reason to believe that a substantial increase in the production of sanitary ware can be expected with the expansion of facilities. The installation of facilities, many of which must be built in Canada and others imported from the United States, may see the lapse of quite some time before the full effect of the new facilities is felt. Action has already been taken that is designed to increase the current 1946 estimated production by a figure somewhere in the neighbourhood of 50 per cent. An additional supply factor offers the farther possibility of a substantial increase in that percentage figure.
In the matter of window glass, Canada is, with one exception, dependent upon imports. This import figure, which has been running currently at a monthly average of 2,500,000 square feet or slightly better, moved upward to almost 3,500,000 square feet in the month of April 1946-although May showed a decline. The only Canadian producer of glass suffered fire damage in 1944 and did not resume production until December 1945. Export control of glass has been re-imposed and covers plate, window and sheet glass, and cutlet (broken glass), including ground glass. Every effort is being made to increase the importation of window glass from- the United Kingdom and from the United States, and at the same time, to bring forward as early as possible, exports from the European market, particularly Belgium. I am pleased to note that imports from Belgium, a traditional source of supply, are now scheduled, with appreciable amounts for delivery in July and August.
The situation with respect to paints, varnishes and lacquers appears to find production and shipment running according to a fairly
normal pattern. (The dollar value of its product has increased steadily, through 1946, by fifty per cent). There would appear to be reason for suggesting that this part of the building materials industry is in a position to cope with the proposed housing programme.
The position with respect to builders' hardware has also been the subject of a special study. I have been advised that replies to the survey suggest Canadian manufacturing capacity is sufficient to take care of Canadian requirements for builders' hardware. The committee on materials suggests that it' is unnecessary to recommend any additional manufacturing capacity. There are certain factors limiting production. Each of these will be considered in full, either by my department or with the department of government primarily concerned.
In the field of lumber and lumber products, production of sawn lumber in Canada during the month of April, 1946, amounted to roughly 283,000,000 feet board measure, which is 13 per cent below the March output of 324,000,000 feet board measure. May declined slightly. These figures represent 100 per cent production coverage for British Columbia and 56-65 per cent mill coverage in the remaining provinces. Regional reproduction through March to May showed a substantial improvement for Ontario and Quebec with a sharp decline in British Columbia production. The net effect of the production loss in British Columbia in terms of 1946 production still remains to be judged. Production of rigid insulating board (wood fibre) remains in line with demand with May production showing a 23 per cent increase over April. The production of panel board in May, 1946, shows a 30 per cent increase over the preceding month. The production of plaster base board shows a definite increase over the prior month. Roof boards and other rigid boards follow the same design in increased production.
I should now like to say a word about priorities. In December 1945 construction control was removed. It was felt, and I still believe, that when hostilities ended the difficulties of enforcing construction control as we knew it during the war would far outweigh any benefits which might accrue. In order to channel building materials in short supply into the housing field, and make the best possible use of available supplies, a formal priorities rating was established and issued as priorities officer's order No. P.0.11, dated March 12, 1946. There still seems to be some confusion about this order. I wish to reiterate to hon. members that its prime purpose is to channel building materials which are in short supply into government or government-approved low or
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moderate cost housing projects, such as wartime ' housing, integrated housing, Veterans Land Act, housing enterprises, emergency-shelter and prefabricated units for veterans, and to assist veterans to secure needed materials to complete houses owned by them which are well advanced.
Up to the present we have been using 75 per cent as the stage of completion at which we make priorities available to the veteran who will own and occupy the house. We will now issue priorities to veterans who have houses 50 per cent completed, which generally means roofed and ready for plaster.
In every instance priorities are made available only for veterans housing or for housing which is to be rented to veterans.
It will be noted that, with the exception of the completion of the veteran-owned houses, all priorities of materials are limited to projects controlled in respect to sale price or rental by Central Mortgage and Housing corporation or the Veterans Land Act. This, together with the veterans' preference, is the cardinal principle upon which this priority order functions. It would be wrong to take such steps to provide materials for speculative builders or others if there were no control over the sale price or rentals.
In 1946, we expect that approximately
20.000	housing units, or about one-third of the housing expected, will be assisted by priority regulations. At the present moment priorities are assisting in the construction of some 15,000 housing units.
As hon. members know, the problem of building labour is the responsibility of my colleague, the Minister of Labour, and his department. At the same time a review of the housing situation would not be complete without reference to this vital phase of construction.
Few of us realize what an important contribution a housing programme actually makes to a high level of employment and income. A research study just completed by my department indicates that a housing programme of 50,000 units of a desirable standard would employ 143,000 persons for one full year. Of these, it is estimated some 66,000 would be working on the building site, and the remainder in the mines, forests, factories and other businesses concerned with providing necessary building materials and equipment. These figures must be increased by 20 per cent for each additional 10,000 housing units constructed.
The importance of the large volume of employment provided by the construction of
50.000	housing units is perhaps best illustrated by the fact that it equals the total number of

men working on the combined production of aircraft, guns, shells and bombs during mid-1944. Thus house-building, with its ramifications on the economy as a whole, can absorb many persons laid off since the end of the war. Of course there are difficulties, beoause the skills required cannot always be matched by the type of workman available.
Further, there may be an excess of skills in one area and a shortage in another, and the difficulties of transportation are too great to move applicants to the place of employment. To demonstrate this point: On March 30, 1946, the number of unfilled vacancies in the construction industry as reported by the Department of Labour was 9,496 while unplaced applicants numbered 9,802. But many of the unplaced applicants did not have the training or qualifications for the jobs that were available. We were, and still are, very short of bricklayers, masons, carpenters and plumbers, but jobs in these trades cannot be filled by men with little training or experience. I cannot emphasize too strongly the need for the young imen of this country to learn a trade. It is true that at present they may earn more as common labourers than they would if they were to work as apprentices; I believe, however, that the position will be very different when the present squeeze in the labour market is over. When this time comes-we believe it will be the second half of 1047 or the beginning of 1948-the men who have a trade or are completing their training will have better prospects for employment than those who- have no special skill to offer.
The government is very conscious of the need for trained personnel, particularly in the construction industry. Arising out of the depressed conditions of the thirties, and the interruption of training plans during the war years, our construction workers have been ageing substantially, with inadequate replacements for those who are leaving the labour market. Perhaps one set of figures will demonstrate this point: In Ontario, a province that has a very good record in apprenticeship training, there were 1,070 construction apprentices registered in 1929, but by 1933 the figure was down to 24, and by 1939 it had only reached 100.
To encourage training in construction trades, the dominion government entered into a ten-year agreement with the provinces in 1944. According to this agreement, the dominion government provided a fund of upwards of $1 million to assist the provinces in the expansion of training facilities. Special provisions were also made for veterans. By March 31, 1946,

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6,785 apprentices were reported by the Department of Labour to be in training, about three-quarters of them being veterans.
While satisfactory progress has been made in the field of apprenticeship training, the results of the programme will not be felt for some time, because it takes several years until the training is completed. However, because of shortened training requirements for veterans with some previous experience, a continuous flow of trained building mechanics is expected, beginning in 1947.
While training of construction craftsmen is one important element in contributing to the efficiency of the industry, cooperation among the different groups in the industry is also important. To stimulate cooperation among management, labour and government in the construction industry, the dominion government established some time ago the national joint conference board of the construction industry. This board which came into existence during the war years, is continuing its operations, and has been able to do a great deal to foster cooperation in the industry.
Next I should like to deal with the activities of the various agencies of government which are making a contribution to meet the present housing needs. These agencies are the emergency shelter administration, Wartime Housing Limited and the National Housing Act, which are operated by the Central Mortgage and Housing corporation, and the Veterans Land Act.
Administration of the emergency shelter regulations was transferred from the wartime prices and trade board to Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation by order in council PC. 7502 of December 28, 1945. The principal functions of the emergency shelter administration, which is now operated by the corporation, are:
(1)	To assist, promote and coordinate the efforts of municipalities, and in some instances, provinces in finding temporary accommodation for families suffering acute hardship and distress because of lack of shelter.
(2)	To assist municipalities in obtaining surplus government buildings for conversion into temporary accommodation.
(3)	To assure that all vacant houses in congested areas are put to use. There have been instances when the owner has persistently refused to cooperate. Under the terms of the order the administration has taken over these houses and placed them in the hands of a trust company for sub-letting. In such instances, the rentals receipts are remitted to the owner. As a rule, however, vacant houses have been brought into occupancy through
moral suasion. The regulations also provide that no accommodation may be demolished without written authority of the emergency shelter administration.
(4)	To maintain a close liaison with veterans' organizations and welfare agencies. The administration also is closely allied with Wartime Housing Limited in order to assure that the allocation of units completed by that agency is made to the veterans' families who most urgently need them.
(5)	To operate housing registries in certain congested areas. The administration also bears the cost of room registries for veterans. These are supervised by the Department of Veterans Affairs.
From the time the emergency shelter regulations were established by order in council P.C. 9439, dated December 19, 1944, until February, 1946, the administration took action only when so requested by a municipality. As from February, 1946, a more positive approach was adopted. Although we still rely entirely upon the municipalities, we did approach all the larger municipalities to encourage them to attack their shelter problems in advance. Progress was made to provide a cushion of emergency shelter for May, 1946 and the administration is now working with many municipalities in Canada in an effort to build a similar cushion for the very substantial needs which can be anticipated in October, 1946. To this end, the corporation gives financial assistance to municipalities which have made or are making expenditures to provide shelter. The corporation also assists municipalities to obtain possession of surplus government buildings by purchase or lease. The corporation acts as an expediting agency between the municipality and the government departments concerned with the buildings required for emergency shelter purposes.
With the closer relationship between Wartime Housing Limited and the corporation, arrangements will be made in many municipalities to amalgamate similar functions being performed by Wartime Housing Limited and the emergency shelter administration. For instance, emergency shelter functions in Montreal have been consolidated with Wartime Housing Limited since July 1 of this year. Similar action is under consideration in other centres.
During 1945 some 2,400 family units of temporary shelter were created in surplus government buildings. From January 1 to July 1 of this year, financial assistance was provided to help municipalities make available 874 family units of shelter. The financial assistance provided by the dominion government amounted to 8441,000. Before the end of 1946
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this figure will be substantially increased. In addition, we have worked out an arrangement with Canadian universities to assist them to provide family units for married veterans. In such instances a financial grant is made to the university and the buildings are leased to the university at a nominal rental. To date, 529 units of married veteran students' shelter are being provided under this arrangement. Dominion government financial assistance under this heading totals $509,300.
In all emergency shelter projects, arrangements are made for the municipality or for the university to provide management. We feel very strongly that the only satisfactory management for emergency shelter units is at the local level. Our financial grants are to assist municipalities and the universities to meet the capital cost of the erection or the conversion of emergency shelter. Rentals received are generally set high enough to look after operating expenses, and in virtually all instances the operating expenses and the administration are the responsibilities of the municipality or the university.
The potential slum nature of some of these developments has been referred to on several occasions. I can give every assurance that these buildings will be removed when the emergency ceases and we will take every step to see that they are not allowed to deteriorate into slums areas.
It now appears that it will be necessary to continue emergency shelter into 1947. There will still be a number of evictions, bringing very real hardship in their wake. We are receiving the full cooperation of municipalities, and emergency shelter is making an important contribution to relieve the cause of the greatest hardship.
It is difficult for me at this time to estimate for hon. members the number of family units which will be created under the emergency shelter regulations during 1946. The actual number at the moment for which financial assistance has been given is 1,403, involving government commitments, for conversion only, of $950,300. Another 600 units have been created without financial assistance for conversion from the dominion through the provision of surplus buildings. I shall be surprised if the total number of emergency shelter units created during 1946 is not double the aggregate of the figures I have just mentioned.
With materials so short, I am willing to see essential materials used in temporary emergency shelter only where the housing needs are abnormal and cannot be met by construction of permanent units. Then, too, emergency housing must provide the maximum of accommodation with the minimum use of

materials. It can be argued that critical materials can be used more profitably in permanent construction; I agree, and every effort is being made to keep emergency units to a necessary minimum. On the other hand, it is not possible to meet all of the need with permanent construction and, to some extent at least, I anticipate a continuation of the emergency shelter programme until the housing shortage is largely relieved.
I now wish to refer to the activities of Wartime Housing Limited, activities which are now directed by Central Mortgage and Housing corporation.
Wartime Housing Limited has been responsible for constructing and managing a very large programme of low rental housing projects. Hon. members are well aware that during recent years there has been very little rental housing built by private owners and virtually no rental housing which could be described as being in the low-cost field.
Wartime Housing Limited was incorporated in February, 1941, for the purpose of making available living accommodation for war workers in congested communities. During 1941, 1942 and 1943 an extensive programme was carried on, resulting in the construction of 17,218 war workers' houses, 97 staff houses, 30 schools and numerous other buildings. All this construction was part of our war plant and was as essential as the plants themselves. Virtually all of these war workers' houses are now playing an important part in providing accommodation in the low rental field.
In 1944, the activities of Wartime Housing Limited were directed to providing rental housing for veterans. During that year some 1,287 units were built and rented to men who returned from overseas.
In the summer of 1945 the need for additional rental housing for veterans became apparent, and in the latter half of 1945 a programme of some 6,500 units was undertaken. Owing to the late start, 6,200 of these units were carried over into 1946. This year we have continued the veterans' housing programme, and some 4,700 units have been approved for 1946 construction. Of the 1946 programme, some 4,000 units have been occupied and the remainder under construction have been coming into occupancy at a rate of 200 per week. Although construction schedules are dependent upon a restricted flow of materials, I believe that we can anticipate Wartime Housing units coming into occupancy at an even higher rate during the months of August and September. Our production schedules call for occupancy of about 1.200 units in each of these months. By the end of the year, all of the 1945 carry-over and

Housing Act
failing unforeseen obstacles, most of the 1946 units will be occupied. In short, during the year 1946, Wartime Housing will have produced something like 11,000 low rental housing units for veterans' occupancy.
About two months ago I announced that we would consider applications from municipalities for Wartime Housing Limited units until June 1, at which time we intended to terminate the approval for projects for 1946 construction. The reasons for this announcement were that we are anxious to avoid the extra costs of winter construction. We feel that the programme of 1946 has taken as large a share of scarce building materials as is desirable. With the very great amount of private construction under way there is every likelihood that by October and November vigorous efforts will have to be made to find building materials to bring as many uncompleted units as possible to a state of occupancy. New Wartime Housing projects arranged late in the year would tend to interfere with any- efforts we may have to make to see that a maximum number of houses are completed for winter occupancy.
Faced with the problem of providing living accommodation for veterans, many municipalities have turned to Wartime Housing Limited for low rental housing units. The problem was considered one of mutual responsibility, and towards that end a standard form of agreement has been developed. Under this agreement, the municipality supplies Wartime Housing Limited with fully improved lots at a cost of $1 each. It also enters into an agreement whereby Wartime Housing Limited will make payment during the life of the agreement in lieu of taxes of $24 per annum for each house erected with two bedrooms or less, and $30 a year on each house having three or more bedrooms, plus $1 per year per house for street lighting. On its part, Wartime Housing Limited enters into an agreement with the municipality providing that the houses will be rented to servicemen or their families for as long as there is a demand for rental houses by this type of citizen. Only after these families have been taken care of may the houses be rented to non-veterans.

 The rentals charged range from $22 to $30 per month, according to the size of the house.
In view of the fact that the municipality supplies fully improved property at a nominal price and is prepared to accept in lieu of taxes the amounts I have just mentioned, Wartime Housing Limited agrees to sell the houses as a whole to the municipality for $1,000 each at the end of a stated period. The period is determined by the cost of construction.
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Wartime Housing Limited houses are constructed in accordance with national building code standards. The best materials available are employed! Houses are fully insulated for warmth in winter and the exclusion of heat in summer. Houses for veterans are placed on cement foundations. While they are considered to be semi-permanent, they are constructed to be as serviceable as any average frame house and should have a life of thirty to forty years.
During the last few months there has been pressure from the municipalities, both in respect to war workers' houses and veterans'' houses, on the dominion government to make a payment additional to that which is now being made to the municipality in lieu of taxes. The dominion cannot and will not place itself in the position of being a taxpayer to a municipality. The payments in lieu of taxes were worked out and agreed upon between the municipalities and the dominion as being an amount which, in light of all circumstances, was reasonable. Any increase in revenue from Wartime Housing units to the municipality can only come from the tenants.
The municipalities make the case that the payment in lieu of taxes does not look after their normal services, including schooling. As a result Wartime Housing units are, from their point of view, deficit housing. Although the dominion is unwilling to make additional payments in lieu of taxes, Wartime Housing Limited is prepared to renegotiate existing contracts with the municipalities. Such renegotiated contracts would provide that the dominion shall receive the same net rentals as at present-that is, gross rentals less payments to the municipalities in lieu of taxes. Wartime Housing Limited would, without taking responsibility for payment, be willing in its regular rental collections to collect for and on behalf of the municipalities taxes which the municipalities might consider appropriate to be levied against the tenants of these properties. It would be provided, however, that the levy established by the municipalities must not exceed the normal taxes charged on a similar type of housing bearing the full tax rate.
For example, for a house rented at $30 a month under the present agreement, $2.50 a month is paid by Wartime Housing to the municipality in lieu of taxes. Wartime Housing are prepared to enter into a contract by which they will bill the tenant for a net rental of $27.50, and will be prepared in their collection procedure to bill as a separate item taxes which the municipality considers appropriate. It might be the case that the municipality would feel that it should be receiving twice-
Housing Act
[Stage Direction]
the amount which it is now receiving from the dominion in lieu of taxes. In this event the tenant's monthly bill would amount to a net rental of $27.50, and taxes for the municipality of $5, making a total of $32.50. Wartime Housing is willing to renegotiate existing contracts on application from the municipality. I would like to make it perfectly clear, however, that the dominion is not willing to make increased payments in lieu of taxes out of the net rentals now being received.
As I mentioned earlier, the 1946 Wartime Housing Limited programme is now committed at some 4,700 units. It is not our intention to proceed with more of these units during the current year. Future operations of Wartime Housing Limited will be dependent upon the 1947 programme for housing and the extent to which it is deemed advisable for government directly to enter the field with low rental housing to be owned by them. It is also dependent upon the willingness of the municipalities to sponsor additional projects within their boundaries.
Next I should like to turn to the small holdings provisions of the Veterans Land Act as it relates to housing units which are not rural in all their aspects. Hon. members will recall that the purpose of the small holdings provision is to provide a place in the country for veterans who have regular employment, the land to make contribution to the veteran's livelihood. In some instances the regular employment is in an urban area, and in others it is in a rural area adjacent to the small holding.
With the very great shortage of housing there has been a tendency for the small holdings section of the Veterans Land Act to be used as a vehicle for supplying urban housing to veterans. Hon. members will recall that in the small holdings provision there is a conditional grant up to $1,400 for veterans who take advantage of it. The grant involves the veteran giving up his reestablishment credit, which for veterans as a whole averages somewhat less than $500.
Earlier in this statement I made reference to an arrangement between myself and my colleague, the Minister of Veterans Affairs. Under this arrangement we agreed that it would be advisable for approval for new small holdings which were not- strictly rural in character to be cleared with the central operating group which has been established to look after all of the government's interests in housing. In our arrangement my colleague and I confirmed the policy of the government in that the director of the Veterans Land Act is generally not prepared to approve purchases under the small

holdings provision within the boundaries of a municipality of over 5,000 people, and on the fringe areas of municipalities in excess of
15,000	people. The government is not prepared to extend this type of financing, involving a subsidy of some $1,000 over and above the veterans' reestablishment grant, into urban areas. We are very anxious to see the small holdings provision implemented to the full, provided it is implemented in the manner contemplated by parliament when the legislation was passed. My colleague and I have arrested a trend towards the small holdings section becoming a vehicle for financing veterans' urban housing.
I have outlined the working rule in determining the areas where we do not consider small holdings appropriate. There have been and will be exceptions on both sides of this general rule. For instance, we will not agree to the approval of a small holding within the boundaries of a municipality of under 5,000 people if that community in itself forms part of a metropolitan area. On the other hand there are communities of over 5,000 people which are distant from other urban areas and located in the centre of a large agricultural area. We have been prepared in such instances to approve a small holding, particularly where the municipal boundaries of the community are very wide.
Up to May 31 of this year, 17,359 ex-servicemen had qualified under the terms of the Veterans Land Act for small holdings. In the same period 4,885 land purchases were made by the director of the Veterans Land Act for small holdings. At the same date, 3,959 applications had been approved for small holdings.
I will not explain further the workings of the Veterans Land Act, because, notwithstanding the arrangement with my colleague, the responsibility remains with him. Our main purpose in entering into this arrangement is to coordinate the activities of his department with other forms of housing.
At this point I should like to refer to the National Housing Act, to which this resolution seeks certain amendments. The National Housing Act, as hon. members know, is designed primarily to finance and promote the construction of new housing, rather than to participate actively in the construction field as is the case of Wartime Housing Limited and the Veterans Land Act.
I wish to deal rather fully with the activities under the various sections of the act, since the legislation introduced by this resolution will, I hope, allow a wider application of the terms of the act and permit Central Mortgage

Homing Act
and Housing Corporation to extend its facilities. As I come to them I will indicate the nature of the more important amendments we seek. I do not intend, however, to explain them in detail. I would prefer to discuss them more fully when I move the second reading and after hon. members have had an opportunity to study the bill.
It might be said that the adequate financing provided for home owners by the National Housing Act at a time when mortgage money is plentiful does not result in one extra house being built. In some measure this may be true. However, the application of the act does have a very real influence on the types of houses being built, on who owns and occupies them, on the terms upon which they are purchased, on the quality of construction, and on the manner in which the mortgages are paid off by the owners.
I can assure hon. members that the National Housing Act is being vigorously administered. Operating techniques are constantly being improved, red tape eliminated. Loan approvals by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation have been decentralized by the establishment of regional and branch offices throughout the country. Meetings are being held constantly with the lending institutions. Arrangements have been made for the handling of loan applications in' all parts of Canada-city, town, village and rural areas. Lending values have been increased by eight to ten per cent. Amendments have been made to the minimum standards and specifications. Loan approvals are being cleared at a much faster rate. The integrated housing plan is being pressed forward and has been extended to include duplexes.
The National Housing Act is, in my opinion, a good piece of legislation which we seek by these amendments to improve and make more effective.
Under the National Housing Act the government is in the business of lending money on long terns for the construction of houses. Loans are of three kinds: joint loans made through private lending institutions; direct advances to limited dividend corporations up to 90 per cent of the lending value of a low-rental project, and home extension loans.
The first and most familiar of these is joint loans. Under part I of the act, loans are made jointly by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation and approved lending institutions to prospective home owners or to builders of houses for sale to occupants.
Indicative of both the tremendous demand for housing and the fact that the National Housing Act is filling a definite need are the
following statistics covering loan approvals under part I by provinces during the first six months of 1946, with comparative figures for the same period last year:
Part I
January 1-June 30
Province	Loans	$
Prince Edward Island ...	-		
Nova Scotia 	.. . 75	360.120New Brunswick 	... 39	189,000Quebec 	... 361	1.744,160Ontario 	... 1,726	7.810.020Manitoba 	... 522	2,536,000Saskatchewan 	... 158	693,880Alberta 	... 425	1.924,660British Columbia 	... 623	2.595,680Total 	... 3,929 17,853,520 1945	Province	Loans	$Prince Edward Island ...	-	-Nova Scotia 	.. . 17	79.940New Brunswick 	.. . 5	20,280Quebec 	. . . 200	1.026,200Ontario 	... 1.400	5.937,425Manitoba 	... 331	1,385.660Saskatchewan 	. .. 41	180,600Alberta 	... 116	521.000British Columbia 	... 307	1.187,180Total	
2,417 10,338,285
It will be remembered that maximum loans to home-owners are based upon 90 per cent of the first $4,000 and 70 per cent of additional lending value. By regulation loans may not exceed S6.40O because we are unwilling to lend any encouragement to large houses when the emphasis should be on small homes.
Present-day costs and sales prices present real difficulty. The $4,000 house of 1939 costs at least $6,000 and is often priced far above this figure. This has borne heavily upon the married veteran who, with so little rental housing available, has been forced to buy. He is faced with a larger down payment and larger monthly payments than he had anticipated.
Three steps could be taken to help meet this problem:
First, increase lending values to the current level of building costs which is of the order of 150 per cent of the 1939 level, with variations in different parts of the country. This has been done by the corporation increasing lending values by an additional 8 per cent-10 per cent as from April 29, 1946, so as to bring lending values into line with cost levels. We believe that present lending values are very close to the actual cost of building plus a fair builder's profit, but do not make allowance for extra costs such as delays in delivery of materials, inefficient labour and the very long profit being taken by some builders. We are unwilling to make loans
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[Stage Direction]
on extra costs of this kind. Although there have been some minor increases in material and labour costs since April 29, I believe that our level of lending values is as 'high as is prudent at the moment.
Second, lengthen the period of amortization to reduce the monthly payments of principal and interest. This is being proposed in the amendments introduced by this resolution. We seek to give the corporation authority to extend the period of amortization from twenty to twenty-five years. This will have the effect of reducing the monthly principal and interest payments by 12-2 per cent on a loan of like amount. Here is an example of the increased lending value and the longer amortization period: A house with a lending value prior to April 29 of $4,550, a maximum loan of 33,980 and monthly payments of $25.03 for principal and interest would, under the change to which I have referred and the revision proposed, have a lending value of $5,000, a maximum loan of $4,300 and monthly payments on principal and interest of $23.80, a reduction even on the increased dollar amount of loan. I will deal with this amendment more fully when moving the second reading of the biil.
Third, we have considered, and are not prepared to recommend, increasing the ratio of loan so that 90 per cent loans can be made on lending values up to $5,000 instead of $4,000 as at present. This would have the *effect of an additional loan of $100 on lending values of $4,500 and a maximum increase of $200 on lending values of $5,000 and over. A strong case can be made for such a change. It would help bridge the very large down payment generally required to-day. The increase in amortization period offsets increased monthly payments. In urban areas the $5,000 house is the cheapest that can be bought in to-day's market. The 90 per cent loan provision originally contemplated this type of borrower and house, if not the price. As against these arguments we feel that loans are already very high. The home owner should invest the present difference between lending value and loan even if he purchases at a price in excess of the lending value. We think that already the increase in loans approved since April 29 has had the effect of increasing sale prices. A further increase by this device is likely to cause a further increase in sale price, which if carried to its logical conclusion would result in the same down payment by the borrower and a larger debt by the amount of such increase.
I should like to mention one other phase of the problem of the high level of loans. In 1939 it was thought that the ratio of income
{Mr. Howe.]
of the home owner to debt service-that is, payments on principal, interest and taxes- should not exceed about 22 per cent. To-day 26 per cent to 28 per cent is more the range with some loans or sales to home-owners approved at 30 per cent. The dangers of this level of ratio of debt service to income are very evident but in light of to-day's conditions this increase is necessary. The longer amortization term will tend to decrease these ratios. It is however another reason why it is not desirable to increase the lending value upon which 90 per cent loans may be approved.
The case for sound home financing of a long-term nature makes it inadvisable to accede to the arguments for a change in the ratio of loans made but to continue with our present practice.
Part II of the act provides for joint loans for rental projects, such as apartments and duplexes, on much the same terms as under part I, and a maximum loan of 80 per cent.
The table which follows shows the number of units involved in loans approved under part II of the act by provinces for the first six months of 1946, together with comparative figures for the same period in 1945:
Part II
January 1-June 30
Province Prince Edward Island	Units	$Nova Scotia 	. 14	56,000New Brunswick . . .	. 	-Quebec 	. 279	1,030,800Ontario	. 229	1,351,900Manitoba 	. 17	58,200Saskatchewan 	-Alberta 	. 38	140,000British Columbia .	. 171	625,900Total 	.. 748	3,262,800Province Prince Edward Island	1945 Units $	Nova Scotia 	-New Brunswick . . .	-Quebec 	
Ontario 	.. 105	398,400.. 124	366,660Manitoba 	.. 11	61,600Saskatchewan 	-Alberta	-British Columbia . .	.. 36	124,400Total 	.. 276	951,060These figures are not	impressive	. Theyreflect the small	amount	of rental	housingbeing built. The	number	of units	in this
category is so small that we are attempting to make good some of the deficiency through Wartime Housing Limited and Housing Enterprises of Canada, Limited.
Among the reasons for the dearth of rental housing are the substantial profits on residences being built for sale and the builder's un-

Housing Act
certainty over being able to obtain large quantities of materials for this type of construction.
Units approved under parts I and II of the act during the first six months of the calendar year 1946 totalled 4,667 with loans amounting to $21,116,320. This compares with 2,693 units in the same period last year amounting to $11,289,345.
Mr. KNOWLES:: Under which part?


Mr. HOWE:: Under parts I and II.
Before we leave the subject of joint loans, I wish to discuss for a moment a few other points. The first of these is loan coverage. Since the inception of the National Housing Act, loans have been readily available in every city throughout Canada and in most of the larger towns. Until recently, however, some difficulty has been experienced with applications from residents of small towns and villages, especially those in outlying areas. In view of the desirability of making National Housing Act loans available on a national basis, and as a result of negotiations between Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation and the lending institutions, an arrangement has been made for the handling of applications in all parts of the country. The arrangement is working extremely well, and I am pleased to report that we no longer receive complaints from individuals whose applications cannot be serviced. I would also like to express the appreciation of the government to the eight or ten lending institutions which have taken on this important responsibility.
In the past there has been some difficulty over the lack of authority under the National Housing Act to make loans on leasehold land. This has been particularly true in national park areas, such as Banff and Jasper. The Department of Mines and Resources, quite properly, is unwilling to transfer in fee simple title to lands within national parks. We therefore seek an amendment to the act to authorize the corporation to make National Housing Act loans, under certain terms and conditions, for the construction of houses on land under leasehold.
My third point deals with cooperative housing developments. Under part I of the act, joint loans are available to cooperative housing groups formed for the purpose of building houses or apartments for occupancy by members of the groups. Under certain circumstances, loans for cooperative rental housing projects may also be made under part II (section 8), provided that the cooperative is already formed and has interests other than housing.
Applications are being received from cooperative groups for loans at 3 per cent for periods up to fifty years under section 9 of the act. This section provides for loans to limited-dividend companies for low rental housing projects.
Generally these applications are from groups of individuals being formed into a cooperative to build houses for their own occupancy with the equity being supplied by themselves. The form of the arrangement involves a lease to the member of the cooperative but in most respects the position of the member is that of a home-owner. These applications have been declined because section 9 was not designed for this purpose, its conditions cannot be fulfilled under such circumstances, it was never intended that the tenants of a low rental limited-dividend project should be its owners and the position of the tenant with respect to both his equity and continued occupancy is unsatisfactory.
An individual going into such an arrangement has no security of tenure because under the terms of section 9 he cannot continue to lease a unit in the low rental project if his income exceeds five times his rental. This condition exists to assure the low rental character of the project. Even if the tenant's rental-being paid in lieu of principal, interest and taxes-is current, he has no protection against foreclosure with loss of equity and tenancy if the project as a whole goes into default which might be occasioned by default of 5 per cent or 10 per cent of the tenants. In most of the applications we have received there is no indication of any reasonable measure of protection on this score. Nor are there funds other than the tenants' equity to assure completion of the project in a period of rising costs.
The position of the tenant when the loan on the project is repaid is not happy. Under the section he, as part owner of a limited-dividend company, or having an interest in it through a cooperative, may not receive more than his equity with 5 per cent interest. If the residual value of his house was greater than this amount he would have to make a corresponding payment to retain possession. If it was decided to sell the property as a whole the position would be even more difficult. To avoid this trouble it has been suggested that at this time we should provide that the units revert to the tenants at the end of the amortization period. This is not feasible in light of the intent of the act.
There are other reasons why we should not approve such applications. They, like the ones I have outlined, all add up to one
Housing Act

conclusion. Section 9 was not designed for home-owners. Nor was section 9, with long term money at 3 per cent, designed as a substitute for part I of the act which provides loans to home-owners at 4J per cent for a term generally twenty years but under some circumstances up to thirty years. If we provide cooperative home-owners with 3 per cent money, our position becomes difficult with other home-owners.
Our position is very clear. We will not approve applications for loans under section 9 to limited-dividend companies where the prospective tenants directly or indirectly are financing the equity of the project nor where factors exist which are not compatible to a limited-dividend rental project as defined by the act. On the other hand we are ready to approve such applications under appropriate sections of the act, such as section 4 (3) which makes provision for loans to persons incorporated for the purpose of instructing and managing a cooperative housing project.
I would now like to deal with direct loans made by the corporation to limited-dividend companies. Section 9 of the National Housing Act authorizes advances by the corporation up to 90 per cent of the lending value of a low-rental housing project. The term of amortization may be extended to fifty years, and the interest rate is 3 per cent. Three of these loans have been approved, and another ten of them are under discussion.
The rapid advance in the costs of construction has made it increasingly difficult for applicants under this section to meet low rental housing requirements since rents are set up on an economic rental basis. Present conditions, therefore, are not conducive to a large volume of loans to limited-dividend companies if economic rentals are to be obtained. While there is provision for the provinces, municipalities, social agencies, trusts or persons to contribute to a rent reduction fund, this government, as a matter of policy, is not prepared to introduce subsidies either in the form of a grant towards capital cost or subsequent contributions to a rent reduction fund.
All applications from limited-dividend companies are carefully examined by the corporation, and although I do not anticipate a large volume of this type of loan during the next year, I do feel that some loans will be made. Certainly we are anxious to have this type of construction undertaken and the corporation is making every effort to approve applications within the principles laid down in this section of the act. In addition I expect

that in the future many loans of this type will be made upon land made available through the slum clearance provision of the act.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Has the minister any figures on these sections with which he has been dealing for the last three minutes?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. I am simply explaining the principles. There has been very little construction.


Mr. GREEN:: Where were these lowdividend projects?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Chiefly in pulp and paper towns.
Next I would like to deal with the activities of Housing Enterprises of Canada, Limited. Hon. members will remember that at the last session of the house amendments were made to sections 9 and 11 of the National Housing Act whereby an institutional holding company could proceed with rental housing. Shortly after these amendments were passed, all life insurance companies operating in Canada joined together and formed a mutual institutional holding company in the name of Housing Enterprises of Canada, Limited. Housing Enterprises contemplated a two-year programme of about 10,000 units and planned to distribute the much-needed rental housing throughout the urban communities from coast to coast. The financial arrangement is that loans are made to Housing Enterprises under section 9, as I have previously described, and the 10 per cent equity of Housing Enterprises comes under the provision of section 11 of this act.
When this proposal was discussed with the life insurance companies in July, 1945, it was contemplated that rental housing units providing two and three bedroom accommodation could be produced for shelter rents of about $35 and $40. Since then there have been increases in cost and at present it would appear that the rental level for most projects will be of the order of $39 to $45 for the two and three bedroom units. This is a low economic rental in light of to-day's costs but it is not the low rental contemplated when Housing Enterprises was formed.
In view of the substantially increased costs as well as a shortage of building materials, the 1946 programme of Housing Enterprises will be limited to some 3,400 units. Of these 1,945, comprising seventeen projects, have been approved by the corporation and are under way or will be under way this week. Tenders have been or are being called on seven other projects involving some 739 units, and the 700-odd units forming the balance of the pro-

Housing Act
gramme are being developed by Housing Enterprises as fast as possible. We anticipate that by August 1 work will be under way on virtually the whole 1946 programme.
The following is a list of projects by localities being undertaken by Housing Enterprises, together with an indication of their status, at July 15.
If I may I will have this table put on Hansard.


Howard Charles Green: Do these projects get priority for supplies?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.
Project Location	No. of Units
Vancouver-A	1	136
Vancouver-B	 213
Victoria	 100
New Westminster	 112
Regina	 101
Saskatoon	 50
Calgary	 104
Edmonton	 100
Stratford	 108
Chatham	  145
Windsor	 113
St. Thomas	 65
Sarnia	 59
London-A	 182
London-B	 43
Hamilton	 116
St. Catharines	 102
Kitchener	 114
Brantford	 50
Owen Sound	 63
Guelph	  61
Waterloo	 50
Toronto-A	 32
Toronto-B	 72
Peterborough	 128
Kingston	 84
Brockville	   50
Lindsay	 50
Montreal-A	 150
Montreal-B	 384
Quebec	 100
Three Rivers	 50
Saint John	 106
Charlottetown	 50
Total	 3,443


Mr. MacNICOL:: I believe it should be pointed out that the minister must get consent to place these tables on Hansard.


Clarence Decatur Howe: After all, I am moving a resolution.


The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Golding):: I was going to permit the minister to finish his remarks, and then ask that he be granted permission to have these tables placed on Hansard.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Agreed.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The table is as follows:
Type	Status
Row Construction under way.
Multiple Tenders called.
Single Negotiating project. Multiple Negotiating project.
Single	Tenders	called.Single	Tenders	called.
Single Negotiating project. Multiple Negotiating project.
Single Construction under way. Single Construction under way. Single Construction under way. Single Construction under way. Single	Tenders	called.Single	Tenders	called.
Multiple Negotiating project.
Single Construction under way. Single Construction under way. Single Construction under way. Single Construction under way. Single Construction just starting. Single Construction just starting.
-	Negotiations only.
Multiple Construction under way. Multiple Construction under way. Single Construction under way. Single	Tenders called.
Single	Tenders called.
-	Negotiations only.
Multiple Construction under way. Multiple Construction just starting.
-	Negotiations only.
-.	Negotiations only.
Single Construction under w'ay.
-	Negotiations only.
We are in great need of rental housing units. I have already mentioned the tendency towards the building of residential units for sale. Housing Enterprises and Wartime Housing are making the major contribution towards a new supply of rental housing units. I would like to express my appreciation, as well as that of the government, for the cooperation of the life insurance companies in entering into the rental housing field at this time when conditions are so difficult.
The resolution being introduced to-day seeks to introduce a new section dealing with loans to provide housing to primary producers in 63260-233
outlying districts, such as mining and lumbering companies. During the last year such companies have had great trouble in attracting labour. As a result production has suffered.
The day of the bunk house is over, and it is becoming increasingly apparent that if stable and permanent employment is to be provided in mining and lumbering camps, it is essential to employ a fairly large proportion of married men. Married men can be attracted only if housing is available for themselves and their families. Many instances have been brought to our attention where married men working in the mining and lumbering industries have

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left their families in urban areas. If such men were able to move their families to their place of employment, it would relieve a certain amount of urban congestion. I will not discuss in detail the proposed amendment at this time except to say that we hope to introduce an efficient, expeditious and inexpensive method of providing much-needed family housing units in outlying areas involved in the production of primary materials.
Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation has taken over the administration of the National Housing Act in full, except for grants for slum clearance. In this instance, the corporation advises the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply but the grant itself is made by the minister, with the approval of the governor in council.
Slum clearance, however, is considered to be inopportune at the present time. The requirement for shelter is so great that the government cannot afford to permit the destruction of livable shelter of any kind. Slum clearance will come later when the pressing need for the occupation of every housing unit is lessened.
Part III of the National Housing Act, which provides for farm housing, has never been very successful. We believe that there are very serious deficiencies in the existing legislation. The resolution before the house to-day introduces an amendment which we feel will allow the corporation vigorously to promote the development of farm housing and to provide adequate financing facilities for this type of housing. I will make a fuller statement upon this amendment at the time of the second reading.
Hon. members will remember that part IV of the National Housing Act is a reenactment of the Home Improvement Loans Guarantee Act of 1937. At the last session of the house an amendment was passed making it possible to proclaim that portion of this part which deals with home extension loans, and to leave unproclaimed the portion which deals with home improvement loans. It was thought inadvisable at this time to use materials in short supply for the purpose of improving homes. On the other hand, we are anxious to promote the conversion of large units into an increased number of family housing units.
This portion of the act was proclaimed in April, 1946, and seven loans have been approved to date. I would remind hon. members that under the Home Improvement Loans Guarantee Act of 1937, some $50 million was loaned. However, only fifty-eight home extension loans, involving $192,000, were approved. The balance was on account of home improvement loans. It is not likely

that the present home extension provisions of the National Housing Act will result in an impressive number of loans being approved, if for no other reason than the lack of houses suitable for the purpose. Many such houses have already been converted under the home conversion plan.
Under part V of the National Housing Act, Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation is empowered to carry on studies and investigations into housing conditions in Canada and to conduct technical research leading to improved living accommodation.
Research undertaken by the corporation along these lines since it was organized, at a cost of approximately S50,000, may be summarized as follows:
1.	Financing the dominion bureau of statistics' studies on the number of dwelling units constructed in 1945 and being built in 1946.
2.	Financing an investigation and report by the dominion bureau of statistics on overcrowding and multiple occupancy of dwelling units in Canada.
3.	The corporation has also made arrangements with the dominion bureau of statistics to obtain comprehensive information respecting housing conditions in the prairie provinces when the 1946 census is taken in that area.
4.	Jointly with the province of Ontario and the city of Toronto, financing an investigation and study by the university of Toronto into housing conditions in Toronto and a report of the estimated housing requirements in that city.
5.	Assisting the architectural research group of Ottawa in study of a town planning proposal for a certain area in Ottawa and the preparation of an illustrated display of the proposal.
6.	Investigation of construction costs in large-scale developments. ,
7.	Studies of housing policies and plans in other countries.
8.	A study of residential construction trends and the supply of building materials.
9.	An investigation into site taxation methods and their significance in community development.
10.	The operating records of Central Mortgage and Housing corporation provide information on housing conditions, incomes, construction costs and other data relating to new projects financed under the National Housing Act. To permit a proper appraisal of housing trends, the records of the corporation's lending operations are being set up on a machine basis of tabulation. It is intended to prepare monthly summary reports highlighting housing statistics indicating current trends.

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11.	Beginning on June 1, some exploratory work was started on research into housing finance as provided for in section 27 of the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation Act.
In its administration of the National Housing Act, Central Mortgage and Housing corporation has established a research division to study land utilization and community planning. Provincial planning authorities have been consulted looking to the implementation of community plans. A research programme has been started with a view to obtaining economic, sociological and physical factual information pertaining to community planning. Through the facilities of the dominion bureau of statistics the corporation expects to gather factual data from the 1946 quinquennial prairie census sufficient to permit a complete study and analysis of existing community conditions. It is believed that from such studies, wfith the cooperation of both provincial and municipal planning authorities, it will be possible to establish basic community planning standards.
It is intended that this factual information, and studies based upon it, will be made available to all interested provincial and municipal authorities, either for public education or community planning use. The corporation also proposes to make public its findings.
Other research projects are to be undertaken in connection with regional planning and land subdivision. Advice is now being made available to subdividers. Methods are also being indicated whereby savings in service costs may be obtained without losing sight of the functional aspects of the subdivision which are so important to better social conditions.
In this connection I might add that on June 25 and 26 a community planning conference was called in Ottawa. Representatives of the provinces and of other interested groups were present and discussed mutual problems. At the conclusion of the meeting an organization to be known as the community planning association of Canada was formed. The object of the association will be to foster public understanding of and participation in community planning in Canada.
I now come to two specialized activities under the National Housing Act. The first of these is the home conversion plan which was established by a series of orders in council beginning with P.C. 2641 of April 1, 1943, under which authority was given to the government to lease buildings in certain cities, to convert them into multiple housing units and to sublet them to suitable tenants for the relief of the housing shortage.
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Conversions completed at July 11, 1946, totalled 258, providing 2,097 housing units. Houses in the process of being converted on that date were two, providing eleven housing units.
The cities in which the plan is now operating are Vancouver, Victoria, Nanaimo, Femie, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Toronto, Hamilton, Ottawa, Brantford, Galt, London, Windsor, Kingston, Montreal, Quebec and Hull.
It is not our intention to press further development at this time owing to the lack of suitable houses for conversion, as well as the shortage of materials and the very high costs involved. The term of the lease during which the crown recovered its costs was established at a time when costs were much lower. Were conversions to go forward at this time under present conditions, the length of the lease enabling the crown to recover moneys advanced would be too long, making the plan unsatisfactory not only to the crown, but to the owners of such houses.
The resolution proposes to put into statutory form the powers which were used for this plan under order in council. A small appropriation is included in the estimates for any new projects which seem suitable. The corporation requires the powers in statutory form not only to go forward with any occasional suitable unit, but also to continue to operate the existing converted units.
The second of these activities is the integrated housing plan which is a specialized application of part I of the act.
Its purpose is to promote the building of houses for sale, preference being reserved for veterans of world war II and their dependents.
By order in council we recently extended the terms of the integrated housing plan to duplexes which are defined as houses containing two family units, built one above the other, with separate entrances.
It is now proposed to bring the provisions of the plan, which is presently being administered under the Emergency Transitional Powers Act, under the National Housing Act, with a view to empowering the corporation to enter into contracts with builders.
The main features of the plan are:
1.	A pre-determined maximum sales price.
2.	Priority for materials under priorities order No. P.O. 11.
3.	A government guarantee to purchase in the event of non-sale.
4.	Sales preference to veterans.
As at July 5, of this year, thirty-five integrated housing plan projects, involving the
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construction of some	2,135	units	had beenapproved. Of these,	work	has	started ontwenty-one projects of	1,680	units.	Projects approved by cities as	at July 5,1946, are as follows:	No.	No.	Units in projects with workCity	projects units started	Fort William	2	135	135Galt 	,1	20	20Hamilton	2	334	334Hespeler 	1	25	-Kitchener 	1	25	25London 	2	251	251Montreal 	2	110	100Oshawa 	5	99	74Port Arthur	1	84	84St. Boniface	1	61	-Sarnia 	1	100	100Saskatoon 	1	50	50Swift Current 	1	23	-Toronto 	5	231	137Val d'Or 	1	50	-Weston 	1	45	-Winnipeg	6	442	370Vancouver 	1	50	-35	2,135	1,680
This, Mr. Speaker, has been a summary of stewardship by this government of its activities in the housing field. The statement has been longer than is usual when moving a resolution, but I know that it is a subject of great interest and will, I am sure, occasion some remarks by my hon. friends on the other side of the house. In fact, there has been a considerable measure of criticism directed at the government because of the acute housing shortage. My statement to-day reveals, I think, that the record of the dominion government in the housing field is not inconsiderable. Let me review briefly a few points:
46,900 dwelling units provided in 1945; target for the year ending March 31, 1947, 60,000; for the twelve months ending March 31, 1948, at least 80,000 units.
Consolidation of all federal housing activities in Central Mortgage and Housing corporation which, in turn, reports to the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply.
Streamlining of lending operations under the National Housing Act, both to individual borrowers and to limited-dividend corporations, resulting in a substantially increased number of loan approvals.
An eight to ten per cent increase in lending values making a present level of about 150 per cent of 1939 levels.
Arrangements for making National Housing Act loans available on a national basis by seeing that all municipalities in Canada are now covered.
Proclamation of part IV of the Act with respect to home extension loans.
Revision and extension of the integrated housing plan.
Extension of housing research and community planning operations.
Introduction of a new priorities rating system giving preference to low-cost government-sponsored housing for veterans.
Extension of the period during which the double depreciation method of financially assisting Canadian industries applies.
Expansion, where possible and practicable, of manufacturing facilities for building materials.
Extension of operations under the emergency shelter regulations.
A stepped-up post-war construction programme by Wartime Housing Limited.
Expanded operations under the Veterans Land Act.
I commend this record of accomplishment to the attention of hon. members.
In the light of my remarks on the record of this government to date in the housing field, I would now like to take a moment or two, Mr. Speaker, to consider what the immediate future holds in store.
That a deficit of housing will confront us for some time to come is virtually certain. At the same time, I can assure hon. members that no effort will be spared by my department and by the government as a whole to meet the deficit, to relieve a critical situation.
The production of materials will be increased by every possible measure in order to assure the construction of a maximum number of houses this year. Failing major upsets, we shall see the completion of at least
50.000	units in the year ending March 31, 1947. Our target-which will be limited only by the flow of materials and supplies-is for 60,000. This will be accomplished in spite of increased industrial and commercial construction. Our aim for the year following-the twelve months ending March 31, 1948-is
80.000	units.
The legislative and administrative steps which I have outlined to-day give clear indication of a positive and integrated housing policy. This policy is designed primarily to see to the immediate shelter problem, but it does not neglect the long-term implications of the need of raising the standard of housing for people in this country. In conclusion, I would like to sum up the main principles underlying our aims and objects.

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(1)	High, priority. Adequate housing for the Canadian people is one of the imajor tasks before us. The utmost effort will be directed towards meeting this need, and the resources of the country will be used to this end.
(2)	Private and public housing. It is the policy to ensure that as large a portion as possible of housing be built by private initiative. The dominion government will lend every facility to private enterprise to build as many houses as are needed. Where private building is impeded by the lack of funds, we have made and will continue to make financial assistance available both in urban and rural' housing. Where private housing construction is delayed through shortages of material or lack of trained labour, we have taken and will continue to take steps to improve both the material and labour supply. If, however, with all the assistance we can provide for financing, materials and labour supply, the houses required to substantially improve the housing standard of the Canadian people are not forthcoming, then the dominion government will take a direct position in the housing field.
Already we are engaged in such measures as veterans' housing projects under Wartime Housing Limited, the small holdings provision of the Veterans Land Act, and Housing Enterprises with the assistance of the life insurance companies. We are in these endeavours because in each instance housing of this type would not otherwise be forthcoming. We would be very happy to withdraw, but there seems no immediate prospect -of bousing of this type being produced by other means. I hope that the dominion government's direct participation in the housing field will reduce rather than increase, but we are determined to see that an adequate number of homes are built in Canada in the future.
(3)	Housing standards. We believe that houses should be constructed soundly and be of a high standard so as to provide comfort to the people of this country commensurate with the high standard of living at which we are aiming. This will involve new houses for families with low incomes who cannot afford to pay economic rentals. The dominion government has made and will continue to make adequate provisions to make the financing of low and moderate rental housing projects possible. But subsidies to create uneconomic rentals are, in my opinion, a matter for provincial and municipal concern.
The dominion government has, on the occasion of the dominion-provincial conference on reconstruction, invited these governments to consider such aspects as rent reduction funds, land acquisition and local taxes. While no
proposals have been submitted in this respect to the dominion government, we will continue to strive for provincial and municipal cooperation in attaining the goal of bringing rental levels down within the capacity to pay of . families in the low income group. Other measures to raise the standard of housing will be slum clearance projects and the insistence upon minimum housing standards to which each house built with federal assistance has to comply.
(4>
Increased efficiency. Much of the success of the housing programme depends on the efficiency of the house-building industiy, both management and labour, to reduce costs and tap markets hitherto untouched. Already we have taken steps to increase efficiency in the housing field. Our efforts have ranged from large scale housing projects to building material research and the stepped-up training of building labour. We will continue to pursue all possible avenues of endeavour which in our opinion will help to reduce the cost of housing to the consumer, while still leaving adequate remuneration to the builder and the construction worker for their efforts. This will require continued research and technical investigations in the field of housing activities. Part V of the act recognizes this need, and we propose to implement this section to the fullest extent of scientific and technical facilities available. Already a start has been made. But we can only encourage increase in efficiency. Industry alone, both management and labour, can achieve it.
(5) Community planning. Finally, we believe that

 the success of our housing programme is closely tied to an orderly and well integrated growth and development of our cities, towns and villages. With the help of provincial and muni*pal governments, professional and other organizations, we are embarking upon a programme of furthering community planning through financial assistance, research and education.
These broad principles will, we believe, take care of the housing needs of this country, not only in respect to the immediate emergency period ahead of us, but also, with appropriate adjustments in light of experience, in respect of our long-term requirements. Our housing problem is a major task and requires constructive cooperation from everybody in Canada. There is no royal road to a speedy solution. The road ahead is uneven with improvement in sight, but with many problems still requiring an answer. With a continuation of the cooperation we are now receiving from financial institutions, management and labour in the construction industry as well as from the industries supplying building mate-
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rials, we will be alble to achieve our aim. We must first overcome the immediate emergency task of providing shelter for everyone in the country. We must then make rapid progress towards our long-term target of improving the standards of housing and living for Canadians.


William Henry Golding: During the minister's introduction of his resolution he referred to certain tables which he would like to have placed on the record for the benefit of the members. Has the minister unanimous consent?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Agreed.
Mr. DONALD M. FLEMING (Eglinton): Mr. Speaker, it would be premature to attempt at this stage to comment on the features of the legislation proposed to be introduced b3r the minister in the light of the wording of the resolution before the house, but I think it is appropriate to make some passing observations on the lengthy statement which the minister has made.
I am sure that the house is glad that the minister has seen fit to make this statement. I point out that the last occasion on which the house was afforded anything approaching a comprehensive statement from the government on the housing situation in Canada was on March 20 last, when the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply (Mr. Howe) spoke in the debate on the address in reply to the speech from the throne. This is July 22. Four months and two days have passed since the last statement from the government that could be said to approach a comprehensive statement on the housing situation.
When we speak of housing conditions in Canada we are speaking of the problem which is beyond question the most critical internal problem that we face in Canada to-day. I want to say with all the emphasis at my command that it is the duty of this house to keep itself fully informed on housing conditions in Canada, to keep its finger on the pulse of that great problem. It is not good [DOT]enough to have statements from the government at four-months' intervals while the house is in session.
I have suggested before-I hope I am not tiring the house in referring to it again-that the housing situation in Canada is and will be for a long time to come so serious, so critical that there ought to be within the framework of the machinery of this house some continuing body which can apply its intelligence to the problem and receive information on a current basis. There is nothing revolutionary in that suggestion. I
[Mr. Howe.)
think it is a suggestion that the government ought to welcome. But the government does not act upon it. Would it not be of immense value to the house and to the country if there were a committee of this house which could obtain statements as it requires them, not at long intervals but from week to week or month to month, as occasion arises, and examine the officials of the various government corporations which are now charged with administrative responsibility in respect of housing, namely Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation and Wartime Housing Limited. Members of the house have never had under the present set-up an opportunity of examining those officials and obtaining firsthand information from them. I think that is a distinct lack in the present framework of the machinery of this house.
The measure which the minister proposes under this legislation to introduce is the first housing legislation submitted by the government at the present session. It is well that there should be some new housing legislation, if this is to be the only opportunity afforded the house of discussing in a specific way housing conditions in Canada, because it just does not give members an opportunity to come to grips with the housing situation and have a specific debate on this problem to touch on it in such general debates as the debate on the address in reply to the speech from the throne or the debate on the budget. This resolution and the bill which will be introduced following the adoption of the resolution afford the first opportunity given to the house this year for a specific, direcf debate on housing conditions in Canada.
I shall not attempt at this stage to deal with the features of the legislation proposed. There will be a better opportunity when the bill has been before us and has been scrutinized.
One had hoped that the review from the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply to-day might give encouragement to believe that the worst is over as regards housing conditions in Canada. The picture painted for us of those conditions by the minister is neither heartening nor encouraging. It is true that some features of the report which the minister has given the house are reasonably bright. Some parts of the report which he gave with reference to the production of certain building material the house will receive, I am sure, with welcome. But the over-all picture that is presented by the minister to-day as regards current housing conditions and the outlook for improvement over the next year and a half is not bright; on the contrary, it is discouraging.

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What is the picture which the minister has presented to us? In the first place, he says there is at the moment a deficit of 150,000 housing units. That is measured in terms of the housing emergency, not in terms of the over-all need to improve housing conditions in Canada, or to eliminate substandard houses and slums, but is simply the immediate emergency need to-day-150,000 housing units. What is the outlook for the future?
The outlook is this, that by the 31st of March of next year, namely by the spring of 1947, not only will that condition not have improved but it will actually be worse; the deficit in respect of emergency needs of housing will by that date have increased to 180,000 housing units. The situation by the spring of next year will be, we are told, twenty per cent worse than it is to-day. Then, what of 1947 after the spring of that year? The government's objective is to be 80,000 housing units for the year which will commence April 1, 1947, and end March 31, 1948. It means this, that so far from catching up with that further deficit of 30,000 housing units and keeping abreast of the situation as it develops during the summer of 1947, we cannot expect, in the light of present government housing policies, any over-all improvement in the situation in comparison with it as we know it to-day, July 1946, until, probably, the end of 1947.
That, I say, is a very dark picture. The people of this country so far as housing conditions are concerned have borne a great many disappointments; they have suffered many hardships, and they had hoped for something better than this at the hands of the government. We see the government always ready to accept credit for any Canadian accomplishment, any construction of houses. The government must equally accept responsibility for failure.
The report we have heard to-day will deal a hard blow at the hopes of many thousands of Canadians living under conditions of hardship and squalor. If the picture is dark, if the best the government can do gives but a dark outlook for housing conditions, it is much better that the people of Canada should know it, that we should have a frank exposition from the government so that the people will not be permitted to go on conjuring up hopes which would only be dashed next winter.
But, having said that one commends frankness, one does not at all excuse the government for the darkness of the picture. While one approves frankness, one would like some evidence of that quality among members of the government who undertake to deal with housing conditions. The house has heard what the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply has
had to say about housing conditions, and his candid admission that they are going to be worse before they are better. I turn by way of contrast to a speech made by the Minister of Veterans Affairs (Mr. Mackenzie) in Brandon on January 24, 1946. It bears the title "Aftermath."


Mr. MACKENZIE:: The incurable optimist!


Mr. FLEMING:: This speech-and I take it that the copy I have received is authentic, since it came, I believe, from the department presided over by the Minister of Veterans Affairs-contains these two interesting paragraphs :
There seems to be a belief in some minds that housing is a problem peculiar to Canada alone, and one which could have been averted. It is a problem common to all nations to-day who unstintingly contributed their production to the sacred cause of Victory.
There is discomfort, even hardship, at the moment, but through emergency measures by all levels of government, through energetic action by industry, and above all, through the warmhearted hospitality of the people of Canada, we can truthfully say that in this country at least the worst is past.
In the light of the statements made in the house to-day by the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply-to paraphrase this language, no one can truthfully say that in this country at least the worst is past-


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It is a good speech.


Donald Methuen Fleming: -and in all charity to my hon. friend the Minister of Veterans Affairs one can only say that undoubtedly the minister's fidelity to reality was unable to withstand the torrent of his eloquence.
The over-all picture is not the only discouraging aspect of the report made to the house this afternoon by the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply. I do not profess to be able after his long review-a two-hour review-of housing conditions in Canada and government policy in relation thereto, to be able to make an analysis of it on the spot, but I comment on the fact, in relation to what I said earlier, that it is a sad situation when the first attempt to release that information is made now, after damming it up for four months. It would have been better to release the information in this long statement earlier, instead of attempting to hold it back until this two-hour presentation to-day.
The house will be disappointed, I believe, to find that while the minister speaks of the government's intention to encourage imports, he has not a word to say about trying to retain in Canada some of the building materials that are at present being exported. Not a word. We have been drumming on this subject in the
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house ever since the present House of Commons assembled in September last, and we have yet to hear the first word of encouragement on the question of retaining in Canada, for the use of Canadians constructing needed homes in the country, the building materials that are produced here.
But that is not all. I submit that we did not hear from the minister a presentation of any adequate policy for integrating the plans of the government now, whatever they may be, for construction to meet emergency needs with any proper long-range approach to the housing requirements of the country over a period of time.
It would be only a repetition of things I have said before to go into that situation at length; but it would be nothing but folly, nothing but a prodigal waste of public funds, if we did not have a far-sighted attempt on the part of the government to integrate our present efforts to meet the emergency aspects of the housing need with a proper long-range approach to the housing problems of the people. That means taking full account of the
325,000	sub-standard housing units in Canada which we were told by the Curtis commission two years ago existed and which unquestionably have increased in number since. I say, we have not heard anything in the way of a proper integration of effort or of a long-range approach to the question.
There is nothing but disappointment also for those people in Canada who have been looking for some provision of houses to rent. The minister said that the great bulk of construction in Canada carried on during the past year and at the present time has been the construction of housing for sale, whereas the present need in the country is the construction of houses for rent. What encouragement does he give to people who are looking for houses and who cannot afford to buy houses at present prices? There was not a word of encouragement from the minister, only discouragement.
Consider what the minister said in regard to Housing Enterprises Limited. The objective set for Housing Enterprises Limited at the beginning of the year was 6,000 units. That is what the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply said in an address he gave to the Canadian club of Toronto on April 15, 1946. He said:
A new agency, Housing Enterprises Limited, sponsored by Canada's insurance companies, is now entering the field of low-rental housing, with a programme for 1946 of 6,000 units. This project will be most helpful towards meeting housing requirements in a field that has recently not been attractive to private investment.

He tells us to-day that Housing Enterprises Limited has reduced its objective to 3,400. It has slashed its programme by nearly one-half. We are not half way through the construction season of 1946, and already Housing Enterprises Limited has reduced its housing construction programme to the extent of nearly one-half. Not only is that a disheartening picture for those who are in need of houses t-o contemplate, but it is an admission of failure on the part of the government and in particular of the administration given by the Department of Reconstruction and Supply.
What is the national objective for the current fiscal year? The objective, we are told by the minister, is 50,000 to 60.000 housing units; toward the end of his remarks he said it was 60,000 housing units for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1947. He says that the number of units built in the first twelve months after V-E day, that is, ending May last, was 46,900, and the best that the government can ask the people of Canada to hope for is an improvement to the extent of 10.000 at the most, in the year ending March 31, 1947.
If that is the best the government has to offer the Canadian people, not only is it not good enough, but it is a confession of its own incompetence to cope with the problem. The sights of the government must be raised, because 60,000 housing units by March 31, 1947, will leave the situation much worse than it is now, and we shall have to face a deplorable condition before the coming winter has run its course. In the statement given by the minister to-day, this summary of steward* ship, as he has described it, we have heard a confession of failure on the part of the government.


Mr. J. O. PROBE (Regina City):: I listened for some two hours this afternoon to what should have been the report of the superoptimist who spoke to the House of Commons some time ago on the manner in which reconversion in this country was being effected to the satisfaction of Canadian citizens. I must confess that, after two hours of facts and statistics which I have no doubt eminently covered the subject of housing as it exists in Canada, I at least got the impression that we had been hearing, not the report of a superoptimist with regard to housing but rather an admission of the ineffectiveness of a plan that had been drawn up by some tired old gentleman.
It is not necessary for me at this stage to go into a large number of figures and statistics. They have been put on the record by all those who have spoken on the subject of

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housing. But the fact remains, regardless of statistics that have been presented here this afternoon by the Minister of Reconstruction on behalf of the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, that there are not sufficient houses being built. That is the sum total of the criticism which citizens generally have to make, and which it is the duty of members of this house to bring forcibly to the attention of the minister, with every bit of energy they can summon.
I agree with the hon. member for Eglinton (Mr. Fleming) that the government was remiss in waiting four months after the session had begun before bringing down the report which the minister has presented to the house to-day. I suggest, however, that while the hon. member for Eglinton was drawing attention to the obvious fact that we are not building homes for the people of Canada, he should have gone a step further and indicated to the house just how the party to which he belongs would carry this ball. I do not think there was ever a more glorious opportunity for either the Liberal or the Conservative party in this house, the exponents of private enterprise, to demonstrate to us, who are simply socialists, how private enterprise could be made to work in this instance. I am sure that every member of this house and every person in the country must be in complete agreement on the necessity of constructing homes for the people of Canada. But how each Individual could be made a little capitalist in his own little backyard, with a house which he could call his own, neither the policies of the present government nor those of hon. members to my right would indicate. They do not show how the individual can best become that private entrepreneur. As I say, that opportunity was missed. We are in definite agreement with respect to one thing. In every part of Canada we need more houses. All parties agree that we could use better houses than many of those in which citizens of this country live, including, by the way, members of the House of Commons, who are now living in Ottawa. I am also quite certain that most of us are in agreement that by some means or other we should be able to provide less expensive houses for the people who are expected to buy them and live in them. These are the points which I feel have been missed both by the Minister of Reconstruction (Mr. Howe) and the hon. member who acted as critic for the Progressive Conservative party.
Once more I must draw this fact to the attention of the house. In spite of the fact that what the minister read was intended to be a glowing progress report, we have actually
fallen behind on current demand for housing this year. We have fallen behind somewhere between twenty and thirty thousand units. According to the minister, we had the best building year since 1928. Even that statement would bear some inspection. I recall that last year I was interested in a project on Carling avenue in Ottawa which was sponsored by the Minister of Veterans Affairs (Mr. Mackenzie). There a project of veterans' houses was being undertaken. I remember that last fall we had a little difficulty in keeping one of the basement walls propped up. I went there recently to have a look at the houses. It is now a matter of ten months since the construction was undertaken and these houses are still not being used by the veterans for whom they were intended. On the basis of that and other projects that I have seen in other parts of Canada, I would judge that the 46,000 and some odd houses which were reported to have been built are definitely not finally completed.
While drawing attention to the fact that we have a large problem on our hands in providing houses for Canadian veterans, the Minister of Reconstruction, both in his statement and in the resolution which he has introduced for the consideration of the house, is, as I see it, not approaching the problem. To illustrate what I mean, I think we all agree that people in the upper income brackets are well able to look after their house-building under any financial or building supply difficulty. The people whose needs, whether for ownership of for rental, will not be met by any policy which the government is willing to undertake now are those in the low-income group.	[DOT]
Recently I had an interview with the president of Central Mortgage and Housing corporation where I acted on behalf of a housing group from my own city which wished to j{et moneys for the purpose of a fifty or sixty unit housing project in Regina, but they were definitely opposed to the present high interest rate of 4% per cent which the terms of the National Housing Act demand. I went to the president of this government corporation to find out the reasons why a body which consisted of fifty or sixty wage-earners of the middle-income group, $2,000, $2,300 or $2,400 -persons who represent the better than average income group, certainly of my city, and who were equally responsible financially and as secure in terms of the bank as any of those puppets of the mortgage companies which have contracted to put up their three thousand odd houses this year-could not get loans. The president of Central Mortgage and Housing corporation told me that it was against the policy of the government, as he was
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instructed to administer it, to consider members of the cooperative housing association as being anything other than a group of individuals attempting individually and on their own security to secure loans under the National Housing Act. Therefore they could get no better terms than 4% per cent.
I wish to draw the minister's attention to what they are doing across the border with respect to cooperative housing associations. Lest anyone think that the United States has gone socialist with respect to cooperatives, I desire to remind hon. members of the fact, which they already know, that the United States is still an exponent of private enterprise. Perhaps the difference is that they still believe they can put a little enterprise into this old machine. But thej'' are willing to play ball with cooperative housing bodies. The housing act which came up last November, the Wagner, Ellender, Taft proposal provides assistance to non-profit corporations for mutual ownership housing, which would be eligible for ninety-five per cent of their loans with a forty-year maturity, and a -maximum interest rate of 3i per cent. The act foresees the possibility that the private mortgage companies might not care to play ball with cooperatives. Therefore it makes the provision that if private capital should not be available to mutual ownership corporations on these terms, then the federal national mortgage corporation is authorized to make the necessary loans. That is the way in which the mutual home ownership proposition is being handled in the United States. They have an interest rate which is lower than ours; they have an amortization period which extends to forty years. By their attitude toward cooperative home-owner groups they are adopting an attitude which has been recognized for years in Great Britain, Sweden. Denmark, the Netherlands and other enlightened countries.
If we are to build houses for our people- and I presume the -minister is as sincere in that desire as any other hon. member-the minister must not let his personal or political prejudices blind him to the methods by which this can be done. If he is flexible, if he is a business man, when one procedure fails he should try another one which might have a chance to work. But I maintain that the present government are opposed to any cooperative form of building enterprise; they are definitely opposed to anything which is going to provide ownership to a low-income family at a decent, repayable amount. Of course the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and the fact is that the low-income people are definitely not getting houses.

In the resolution the minister has brought in for the consideration of the house there are certain suggestions for the extension of the lending feature. For example, apparently he proposes to lend money for the construction of homes by those who have only a leasehold interest in the land, and his explanation this afternoon suggested that this would be for the purpose of building homes in public parks and elsewhere in the public domain. I venture to suggest that before the bill to be founded upon this resolution has ran its course or is replaced we shall have a capitalist corporation lending its property on a leasehold basis to individuals who thereby may be tempted to build on corporation premises. Then, for one reason or another, this corporation eventually will have the down payment of the individual plus the property on which the home was originally constructed. It follows the old English practice whereby property was retained in the name of the landed aristocracy; I think it was called, "in entail".
Further, in the fourth section of this resolution the minister proposes to subsidize, again not the home-owner but large pulp and mining corporations, to perpetuate ghost towns paid for by the money of the people of Canada. I see several of these projects under way now along the Canadian Pacific main line between here and Fort William, and I venture to predict that if these companies are not already operating under some form of agreement with Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation to take over the risk of the projects, they will approach the minister after this resolution and the bill to be founded upon it are passed.
The minister has not shown, either by this resolution or in his address, that he has done anything to get the cost of materials down, or that he has taken positive action for the production of additional building material. I know this afternoon he gave us statistics showing that the production in April of this year was up some thirty per cent in some commodities as compared with April of last year, and so on all down the line; but the cold fact is that we are still not getting material in sufficient supply, that we still get letters from our constituents and others asking where the bottleneck is and what are the government doing about it. The right hon. minister gave no indication that he had taken any positive steps to remove any of these bottlenecks in supplies. Nor has he done anything to reduce the cost of these materials. As a matter of fact, material costs are continuing to increase.

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In the two or three minutes remaining before six o'clock I should like to suggest to the minister that he extend the provisions of the National Housing Act in two important particulars. I am certain that a combination of these two extensions will bring about a considerable increase in the number of homeowners in this country. My first suggestion is that he permit cooperatives to be treated on the same basis as mortgage companies, so that they may borrow money at three per cent for construction purposes. The second suggestion is that he give the low-income groups an opportunity to become home-owners by combining a changed amortization principle with a reduction in the cost of money to the individual. The period of amortization should be extended to thirty or forty years. If we can lend money to Great Britain at two per cent, starting in 1949, there is no reason in the world why we cannot lend money at the same rate to Joe Doaks out in Regina or Vancouver or anywhere else. If wre can do it in the one instance, if it is humanitarian and good business, then we can do it in the other instance.
I should like to give the house just one or two figures to indicate the approximate monthly repayment required on a loan of $3,000 at various rates of interest and over twenty-year, thirty-year and forty-year periods:
Approximate Monthly Repayments on $3,000 Loan
Interest
rate	*
per cent	20 years 30 years 40 years
1	
$13 86	$ 9 69	$ 7 622	....'	
15 29	11 17	9 153	
16	81	12	76	10	824	
18	40	14	46	12	645	
20	07	16	38	14	58
Three per cent is the present rate allowed to mortgage companies, and five per cent is just above the present National Housing Act rate. I want to warn the right hon. minister of what I am sure he must know, if he would only admit it and do something about it. That is, until you bring the cost of building materials down, by legislation if necessary, or by going into the business on a socialist basis as a government, and change the basis of amortization from twenty to thirty or forty years and at the same time reduce the interest rate, you will never have the citizens of Canada housed as they deserve to be.
At six o'clock the house took recess.
After Recess
The house resumed at eight o'clock.


Mr. D. KING HAZEN (St. John-Albert):: Mr. Speaker, I hope that the amendments to the National Housing Act which are set out in general terms in the resolution which the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply (Mr. Howe) moved this afternoon, in the course of his long and instructive speech, will result in relieving the housing shortage that has existed in this country for too long a time. The fact that these amendments are being made seems to me to be an admission on the part of the government that it has failed or has not been successful up to the present time in the efforts it has made.
It is not my intention to speak at any length this evening, but I want to bring to the attention of the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply the fact that there exists in Saint John and vicinity, as well as in other urban centres in New Brunswick, an acute shortage of housing accommodation, which shortage works great hardship on the men who served in our armed forces and who are now endeavouring to reestablish themselves in civil life. A few days ago I received from Mr. L. W. Elster, secretary of the Saint John branch of the Canadian legion of the British empire service league a copy of a resolution which had been moved by Reverend W. C. V. Martin, seconded by A. E. Skaling, and carried unanimously at a meeting held on August 8. The resolution, which sets out clearly the situation that exists there reads as follows:
Whereas Saint John branch No. 14 view with alarm the indifferent attitude of government bodies in providing low cost housing accommodation to fit the incomes of lower paid working men, among which are a large proportion of ex-service men.
It is resolved, that we, the Saint John branch, do strongly demand that immediate action be taken by government authorities to relieve the appalling housing conditions under which exservice personnel are now compelled to exist, which is poor compensation for the sacrifices they made, and the promises they were given for a better future for themselves and their children;
And be it further resolved, copies of this resolution be forwarded to Prime Minister King, Reconstruction Minister Howe, E. King Hazen, M.P.. dominion command, provincial command. Premier McNair and the mayor and common council, warden and councillors of the municipal council of the city and county of Saint John.
I recognize the fact that the dominion government cannot perform miracles, but it has held out certain hopes and made certain promises to our returned men and it is up to it to implement those promises.
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Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, obviously this is a measure which can best be discussed in detail when the bill has-been presented to us and we have had a chance to examine it before second reading, but it does seem to me that there are a few things that should be said at this time following the lengthy statement made by the minister this afternoon. In all fairness, it must be admitted that he did a good job of lining up the situation as it now stands, with respect to both the need that exists and the machinery that has been put into motion and amended from time to time by the present government to meet that need.
On the other hand, it did seem to me that the minister's statement was even a more hopeless one with respect to the future than even he admitted it to be. Certainly it was lacking in any vision and any sense of realization that this housing problem in Canada could, be turned into a glorious opportunity to do something on a grand scale, something that would be really worth while for the people of Canada.
As I listened to the minister speaking this afternoon I made a good many notes, and as I looked over those notes afterward it struck me that the minister had made a good many admissions with respect to matters that are important and germane to this whole question. First of all, the minister recognized that there is in Canada an acute housing problem which at the present time, to use his own words, is worsening.
He recognized also that up to the present time, despite all the achievements for which he wished to claim credit, the problem has not been met. He was honest enough, as he went alqng with his speech, to refer to a number of points on which the machinery put into motion had not come up to the government's expectations or hopes. However, it was something to have had from the minister a frank recognition of a problem which requires the full-time attention of a minister who has achieved the reputation for energy which the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply (Mr. Howe) has earned.
During the early part of his remarks the minister spent a good deal of time on the problem of housing materials and he indicated that he recognized the importance of materials in any programme for the building of houses. He indicated at least some of the steps the government had taken to try to improve the situation with respect to materials. In that part of his speech he dealt with the proposal to extend the time allowed for double

depreciation and said that the government had taken action in other ways which would be indicated to us in greater detail at a later stage in the debate.
I strongly support the minister in his bringing to our attention and to the attention of the country the importance of the provision of housing materials in any programme of housing construction. It reminded me of ah experience of mine, listening to a debate at Westminster on this housing problem. The government over there has taken really advanced steps to provide housing materials, recognizing that they are basic to the whole business of the building of houses themselves.
I was interested too in the minister's recognition of the important part that an adequate housing programme can play in providing employment. He gave interesting figures in relation to the number of men employed in certain sections of war industry and how it would require that number to carry on an adequate housing programme. As a matter of fact, it reminded me of things that some of us have had to say from time to time, namely, that this whole business of housing provides a glorious opportunity to the government of the day, to any government in power, to do two things:	one, to meet the needs of our people
for homes to live in and, two, to provide useful employment on a large scale.
I was interested in hearing the minister state his recognition of the need for training workers in the construction industry so that we might be properly prepared in the field of labqur as well as in materials.
Another recognition that the minister gave us had to do with the necessity, to some extent at least, for the control of prices of houses. I believe that he made that point when he was referring in part to what appears in section 4 of the resolution before us. He made a statement to the effect that when one provides assistance for speculative building there must be control over prices so that the people of the country would not be exploited. It is good to have that need before us too.
The minister also, although very briefly, admitted to us-and this was one of the points where he admitted that the government's machinery had not done everything that it had hoped it would-that the needs of our rural population for housing somehow had not as yet received full consideration or attention. That was one subject on which the minister did not ask for unanimous consent to place any tables on Hansard, and we all have a pretty good idea why. Such tables, if presented, would show that there had been very little activity in-that field, in fact almost none at all. The

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recognition of that leads to some of the proposed amendments in the resolution before us.
The minister also indicated that another bit of machinery instituted by this government had not fulfilled its purpose, namely, Housing Enterprises Limited, which represents the joint effort of the life insurance companies of Canada in the housing field. The minister's statement was to the effect that although a certain number of projects were under way and a certain number of units were being built-and he gave the figures-the rentals which Housing Enterprises Limited felt it necessary to charge were higher than one could regard as satisfying the demands of a low rental housing project. On that score the minister was frank enough to admit anxiety over a phase of the problem that concerns a good many of us.
The minister also referred to slum clearance, using a plausible argument, to the effect that nothing could be done about that now because of the need of retaining in use every housing unit that can be lived in at all. When some of us think of the conditions of some areas in Canada which are referred to as slums, we realize what a shameful admission that was for the minister to have to make, namely, that these dwelling units must continue to be used. It was an admission that there is a tremendous problem which thus far has not been touched at all by this government through its housing legislation.
Related to that, the minister had a reference in the closing part of his speech to the need for raising housing standards generally. He admitted that even after we overtake the actual deficit in the number of dwelling units which now plagues this country there is a real problem in terms of our desire for adequate Canadian standards of living, the need for raising the standards of the homes in which our Canadian people live.
So that we had set out before us in the speech of the minister, along with the analysis that he gave us of the present situation, a real target to aim at, not just a target in terms of so many units within the next one or two or four or five years, but a total target in the field of housing. As I was listening to his speech, I realized that here was a picture of a government being driven by force of circumstances to do something about housing. Here was a government, whether of its own volition or against its will, that was getting deeper and deeper into the housing business. For a moment I found myself thinking in terms that I sometimes speak in, that perhaps I could, in the course of this debate, refer in complimentary terms to the government for having moved along in this direction, even though only when forced to go there by
the pressure of economic circumstances. But just when I was thinking in those semi-kindly terms of the minister I heard him say that all the things that he had spoken of indicated that the government had got deeply into the housing business, but that it was the government's desire to get out of it, that they wished to have less to do with it in the future than at the present time. That is the thing that annoys me most of all about the failure of the government really to get into this business with both feet and tackle this housing problem on the basis of a public housing authority giving proper assistance to the provinces and the municipalities.
I can sometimes forgive people and I might even forgive a government for not living up to things they never heard of, to ideals that never entered their minds; but here is a government that has come right up against the stark necessity of getting into the housing business, and that necessity has found the government willing to go into it to a certain extent in the machinery they have set up from time to time. They have moved along carefully, cautiously. As the last speaker said, this amendment and previous amendments that we have had from time to time in the government's housing policy are admissions of the failure of the government's initial proposals in the field of housing. Unlike my hon. friends to my right, who never would put the government into business if they could possibly avoid it, this government has got into the housing business because of the pressure of the needs of the people of Canada, and I suggest that, whatever its political philosophy may be, it had before it and still has before it, in this housing crisis and the dire need of our Canadian people for homes, a glorious opportunity really to go somewhere in raising the standards of our Canadian people.
The minister mentioned subsidies, but said: Oh, that must not be done. We get these proposals of assistance to the life insurance companies, these proposals for double depreciation, and all kinds of suggestions for government assistance in an indirect way; yet such a direct way as subsidies to make possible low-rental housing, such a direct way as allout assistance to cooperative organizations or assistance to the provinces, the municipalities, or to public housing authorities- these things the government comes up against, sees them as possibilities, but instead of recognizing them as ideals to be pursued, shies away from them as though there were something poisonous about them.
I was interested in reading in one of the Ottawa papers to-day an editorial referring to our sister dominion of New Zealand and
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the ten-year plan which is now being presented in that country for a number of projects, including a house-building programme to be financed by the use of credit made available through the government-owned Bank of New Zealand. What interested me in that report was not just the means, the use of national credit which is to be employed, which I endorse whole-heartedly, but the whole appeal of a ten-year positive programme which looks toward many of the needs of the people. Our government, as I say, comes up against the ways and means of doing these things and then shies away from them. I hope that what the minister expressed as the desire of the government will not be realized, that they will not in the course of a year or so withdraw from such an extent as they have gone into the field of housing, but rather that as, during the past three or four years, they have been pushed by one economic circumstance and another into this field, they will go still farther, until we really have a public housing authority that is concerned, not about assistance to private lending institutions, to life insurance companies, and to private firms along the line of double depreciation, but rather with meeting the needs of the Canadian people in the actual business of providing homes.


Mr. D. G. ROSS (St. Paul's):: Mr. Speaker, year after year since I have been in the house I have spoken on the subject of housing and the condition of houses in my riding in the city of Toronto, but I have never had much success, never had much sympathy from the government. Early in the war I saw what was going to happen. I remember bringing to the attention of the minister what should be done. AVe had big plants around the outskirts of Toronto, and at that time I suggested that we ought to have wartime housing put up there, but nothing was done about it. AVe had great numbers of people working in factories at De Havilland, Malton, Leaside, Dawes road and elsewhere, for whom housing was an urgent necessity. There was a great influx of people as a consequence. At the present time we find ourselves confronted with a crisis, and it is going to be difficult to do much about it. The lack of wartime housing in these places has accentuated the difficulties which we have in Toronto.
What I rose to comment upon was something said by the minister this afternoon to the effect that he had taken off the priorities in connection with certain types of building. He said he thought that was a good thing. Well, I do not think it is a good thing. What he actually did was to pass the buck to the

municipalities. It is all very well to say that the city of Toronto have control as regards all the houses and other buildings to be built in Toronto, but they have not control to the same extent as the government has. The government knows wThat is necessary. We know we need houses.
Here is the situation. Permits for the city of Toronto are up some S2,898,000; at the end of June they stood at $7,982,000 as compared with $5,084,000. The building applications which have been received and on which construction has not been started cover 289 structures, of an estimated value of $10,067,000. AA'hat are all these? One thing the government can tell us is whether they are necessary or not. There is a plastics factory, 8264,000; another factory, $125,000; and may I say it seems peculiar to me that, with all these surplus structures formerly used as war plants, it is necessary to have these new buildings. We have also another office building at $580,000; and I admit that we need office space. But there is a government warehouse at $850,000, with all these war buildings around the city going for a song. AATe have also a bank building, S3 million. I want as much as anybody to see a bank building put up in Toronto, but I want to see houses built first of all. Then there is another office building, $482,000. Then we have $920,000 for four theatres. All these buildings require material and workmen, and it is mainly the shortage of workmen which makes it difficult to get houses built. Yet another warehouse, $161,000. An apartment building-which we probably need-to cost S133.000.	Another factory,
$150,000-as I said before, with factory buildings all around the city being given away for a song. Two more factory buildings, at $350,000	and	$150,000	respectively; a
garage, $120,000; why? Another theatre, S140,-000; yet another theatre, $115,000. There is no justification for this kind of building when people need houses to live in, and these theatres take considerable material and employ a good many men. Another factory, $140,000; an industrial building. $100,000.
The whole thing does not "add up"; that is all. AVhat. do we want more theatres for? AA7e need houses. AA'e want people to put those houses up, and the material which is going into theatres should be going into those houses.
I should also like to know whether these factories and theatres get priority on the wrought iron pipe which is so necessary for construction purposes. Is it to be understood that they can get plumbing fixtures, the necessary wiring, and the men to instal them when

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house-builders cannot? As I say, the thing just does not add up. The city of Toronto cannot control the situation; it is a bigger job than they can be expected to handle. It is true that a certain amount of material is allocated to the metropolitan district. I speak only for the city of Toronto, but I know also that in the surrounding district quite a number of theatre buildings are going up at the present time, though we do not need them, and the people need houses.


Mr. H. R. JACKMAN (Rosedale):: Mr. Speaker, I feel obliged to say a few words about these amendments to the various housing measures, because, like my colleague, the hon. member for St. Paul's (Mr. Ross), whose riding adjoins mine, my riding is in the centre of the city, and we are divided by Yonge street. My constituency is on the east side and goes over as far as the Don river, and the area contains one of the most congested districts in the city. The hardship which exists to-day, the human suffering which results from this housing shortage, is quite sufficient to make the most callous-minded individual fight to the very last for anything that can be done to alleviate this crying need for houses. Not only does it affect the ordinary individuals, but it affects a great many veterans who were away from this country for five or six years, during which interval what vacancies there were were taken up by other people, munitions workers and others, who came to this city, and when the returned men came home they found there was no place for them to lay their heads, much less provide a decent home for their wives and children.
As far as they go, the amendments which the right hon. minister has suggested are probably veiy good. We have not yet had very much time to analyse them, but I assume, knowing his ability along certain lines, that they are undoubtedly an aid to the solution of this great problem. The question is, do they go far enough, and will they do even half a job? As he said, last year some
47,000	dwellings were built in Canada or reconverted. But that is a very small number considering the total need for housing, when there is a deficit throughout the country of about 700,000 units. Even if we cut that in two and call it 350,000, we still have an appalling shortage of dwelling units. As the minister said, the contribution last year was not inconsiderable. But these are not high words from any minister of the crown in describing the efforts of his department, and I feel very sorry to hear him say that in the fall of this year conditions will worsen, because people who can do with makeshift
accommodation during the summer months, living in summer cottages and non-weather-proofed dwellings, cannot continue to live in such places during the cold winter months.
I should like to read a few cases reported in the Globe and Mail as at July 3, so as to give the house some indication of how the housing shortage is affecting people in cities like Toronto. An interviewer called on the welfare department, central bureau, in Toronto where the necessitous cases are listed, and at the present time there are some 6,000 cases listed there. There is no decent place for these applicants. This is the type of case that exists:
Shortly after the office opened yesterday, a young man came in with liis wife and three children. He had been almost five years overseas, and since his return they had been living in rented rooms. But the landlord had been objectionable and eventually had forced them out. They lived briefly in a tourist cabin, but could not affdrd to pay $6 a night. The husband appealed for help and a room was found for them in a Mutual street house.
That is in the Moss park area of the city where conditions cannot be described as at all good. There is overcrowding and the condition of the houses is little short of shocking in many cases, because most of them are extremely old and in want of repair.
They will remain there until more permanent accommodation can be arranged.
When that will be, no one knows. Certainly at the present rate of progress it will be a very long time, and certainly a time which can well be measured in years for the typical case. Let us take another:
A woman brought in her two young girls. They were without a place to stay and had spent the night in an automobile. They were given accommodation.
A man with lengthy overseas service asked that some help be given him in finding rooms for his family. He, his wife and two children were in two rooms. One child was required to sleep in the hall. A moment later, he was followed to the inquiry desk by a family of four. They had been living in one room. Another man reported that the landlord was trying to force him out illegally by threats and abuses. He wanted protection and help in finding a new home.
The day was not an exceptionally heavy one, explained Frank Dearlove, the department's housing director. There were almost fifty inquiries from people in desperate circumstances.
These are typical of conditions in the centre of Toronto and, I dare say, typical of conditions in many of our large urban centres. If the minister were attacking this problem in a way in which we could see some relief, if not in the immediate future, at any rate within the period of a few years. I should not feel called upon to take up the time of the house. But the suggestions which he has made, while worthy
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as. far as they go, do not seem to me to reach the heart of the problem in any manner whatsoever.
I am interested, as I am sure the great majority of members are, in making sure that the economic system under which we operate, which we know can be extremely productive, as was proved during the war years, when we made such a notable contribution in materials and supply, shall function properly; and if there is an acute housing shortage at the present time, as there seems to be, that system cannot be said to be operating with that degree of satisfaction which the people have a right to expect. Indeed, I wonder that the people have stood for such hardships as they have had to bear through no fault of their own. They were willing and capable workers; and during the depression years, when the present government was in power, they put up with privations which I am quite sure, had I been in public life at that time, I should not have been willing to see them put up with. I should have done everything in my power, no matter what the financial cost might be, to make sure that they were given sufficient housing and food.
May I suggest to the minister that during the long period of the thirties, as he himself intimated this afternoon, there was little building going on. The building industry was starved during the depression. During the war years it was of necessity starved because we could not afford men for the building industry and for war production and we had men overseas at the same time. The result is that the building industry to-day is in decidedly low gear, and very little has been done to change gears, under any recommendations or laws which the minister has put on the statute book. Something more drastic needs to be done at the present time.
The building trades were likewise in an unsatisfactory condition. Work was exceedingly scarce. In my own riding, even in 1940, there were no less than 10,000 forced to accept relief; and on inquiry, going about the riding, one found that many of the men connected with these families were in the building industry. But there was no work for bricklayers, carpenters, plumbers, decorators, and so on. There was stagnation in the building industry, and nothing has been done since that time to arouse the industry out of that stagnation. I recall a case recently of an uncle advising his young nephew, who was about to embark on his life's career. The uncle had been a carpenter and he warned the nephew against going into the building trade. He said, "Don't become a carpenter; the work is too unsteady. See what happened

to me during the depression. There is no assurance that work will be provided for a period of years." The result is that no young man will go into the industry in view of the hardships which those who were in the industry had to endure during the depression years.
Something should be done to make certain that the building industry, which is, of course, in this country a seasonal one, is put on a firmer basis than it has ever known; otherwise we are not likely to recruit enough young men to fill up the vacancies in the trade. And we must fill up those vacancies if we are to get on with the job.
Another problem to which I widh the minister would give some consideration, because it certainly calls for a solution as far as the long-range approach is concerned, is this:	Even in the more prosperous days
when workmen were steadily employed they did not find that they could afford to buy houses for themselves. One of the best reasons I have heard given for that is that, owing to the fact that the building trade is a seasonal one and the number of working days relatively short out of the total year, the rate of wages is of necessity high in order that the building tradesmen may get enough to live on during the entire year. If the rate of pay is high, then the ordinary workman who gets perhaps half or three-quarters as much per hour cannot afford to buy the product of the better rate paid building tradesmen. Some study should be given to this problem so that the ordinary workman may exchange his work for that of the building tradesman.
During the war other industries took from the building trades and the building supply industries all the available workmen they could get in order to build aeroplanes and to turn out the other necessary munitions of war. When the wage freezing order came into effect most of the workmen who were engaged in the building trades, such as brickmakers and others engaged in the building supply industry, had their wages frozen at low levels, whereas those who went into the war industries received new levels of wages, because higher wages were necessary to attract people from one industry to another. There have been some slight modifications of the low wages paid to some of these people in the building industries, but not enough really to attract a sufficient number of men into the building trades and the building supply industries to get these industries going at a rate which is necessary if we are to solve this problem.

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May I point out that there are other industries in Canada, valuable industries, some of which are engaged in the export end of our economy, and which bring in valuable United States dollars. I refer in particular to the newsprint industry which has greatly expanded its production during recent years. In a clipping from a newspaper I find the following:
With Canadian newsprint mills operating at 92-8 per cent of capacity in March, compared with 92'8 in the previous months and 70-2 per cent in March, 1945, newsprint production expanded to a new high level, according to figures released by the Newsprint Association of Canada.
Further on, it has this to say:
This brought production in the first three months of 1946 to 970,923 tons compared with 768,203 in the first quarter of 1945, an increase of 26-4 per cent.
That is splendid increase, a splendid contribution to the Canadian economy and to the bringing in of needed United States exchange, but I do not think the newsprint industry should be given a priority of that kind. The industry was not badly treated during the war. The newspapers had adequate supplies of newsprint, particularly when one compares them with other countries, not the United States, but overseas countries and I do not think any of us suffered because of the size of our newspapers. The point I am making is that the same men who cut down the trees which are ground into pulp to become newsprint could also be used to cut down trees to make more lumber to help in the building of our houses. I believe that the government is derelict in its duty in allowing an industry of this kind, valuable as it is, to expand to a considerable extent when a great deal of the manpower required to turn out the raw product could be used to turn out more lumber, which is badly needed. I should be glad if the minister would point out any flaw in this argument, because it seems relatively simple to me. In most of the areas, not all, where wood pulp is found there are also trees which are also suitable for lumber, and the same lumberjacks could do the same job in cutting down the larger trees as they could in cutting down small trees for newsprint.
From my observations I believe that the effect of the income tax is a bad one so far as getting houses built is concerned. We find that building tradesmen will not work more more than a five-day week; certainly they will not work on Saturday mornings or afternoons because they get into overtime and into a higher income tax bracket. I believe that is one of the reasons why we have not as many man hours in the building industry as we
should have. It would not be asking too much if I asked for the sympathy of the minister in this regard. I hope that he will endeavour to bring some influence on his colleague, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Usley) and point out to hipi that we are not getting the maximum output from our present supply of building tradesmen that we might get, and goodness knows the supply of building tradesmen is scanty enough. The exemptions for income tax purposes of $750 for single men, and $1,500 for married men under the new provisions are not adequate to have a carpenter, a plumber or a bricklayer do his utmost to get houses built because the incentive is taken away from him.
The effect of the corporation tax is also not conducive to the greatest efforts in regard to building. Then salary controls enter into the picture. We have an industry which I have endeavoured to show has been in low gear for at least a decade, and the men connected with it who are employed by building companies were on a low salary scale because the industry could not afford them an adequate return or one which would ordinarily be considered fair. From my observations there is no doubt that if some of these men were allowed to get more, greater production would result, and what is more important, more men of executive capacity, foremen and up, would be induced to come into the building industry.
The minister has pointed out that double depreciation is available to certain of the building supply companies. That is a help. I believe he is not only on the right track but that he should do more along these lines for the next five years until we get over the hump in the building shortage.
I understand that under the Wyatt plan in the United States the building supply companies which exceed their production of the previous year are given a bonus on that additional production in order to stimulate them to work overtime and to think out plans at night to get production going in the best possible way.
I should like to ask the minister what happened to the appropriation which was mentioned by one of his departments two years ago under which a certain sum was set aside for the buying en masse of household utilities such as bathtubs. A supplier would be given an order for five thousand, and he could go ahead with the job, rather than be given an order for a few dozen of this type or that type of bathtub and not be able to get a real line of production going. There was an appropriation along these lines, but I have not heard anything about it for a long time. If more government assistance of that type is required
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it should be forthcoming, because it is the duty of the government to make the present system operate so that our people will not suffer from the acute housing shortage.
Another matter to which I should like to direct the minister's attention is the price ceiling on builders' supplies. Builders of Toronto tell me that they can get some supplies but not others. There is an acute shortage of some vital part because the manufacturer finds he can get some return on his investment if he makes X parts but cannot get any return on his Y parts, so that he concentrates on the X parts. Consequently these shortages and bottlenecks occur in the building supplies industry. The present price ceiling system has also given rise to black markets in the lumber trade. There are certainly black markets, and there are evasions which may not quite infringe the law but which come very close to doing so. These all make for needless work and difficulties in obtaining the necessary materials to go ahead.
I wish to bring to the attention of the minister another matter which certainly many hon. members might not consider to be politically expedient for anyone to mention, but it is this. In order to build houses, someone must put up the capital required. The man who does this naturally expects at least some return on his money; yet we find that under the rental freezing order of October, 1941, all rentals were fixed at the level then prevailing. If the dwelling unit had not been rented at that time a new rental was fixed which in most cases was substantially higher for the floor space involved. Let me give an example so that the house will understand precisely what I am aiming at. In some of the higher class residential districts of the city will be found apartments consisting of three rooms with kitchen or kitchenette and bath, available for S45 and $55 a month, which is a very low rate considering the residential area in which they are located. Then, in the poorer distficts will be found dwelling units which were not rented prior to the freezing order-if I may describe what I came across as a dwelling unit. A veteran and his wife paid $30 a month for one room and the joint use of a kitchen. Compare that with the well-to-do person in the high-class apartment, and there is no fair relationship whatever. I am suggesting to the minister that inasmuch as landlords' costs have also gone up, some slight alleviation should be allowed, even though it be only five or ten per cent on the basic rentals under the freezing order. Otherwise those who have their capital invested in commitments of this kind find they are not getting any return. The increased

cost of supplies, janitor service and so on is eating heavily into their rentals; and landlords, or those who might become landlords, are not encouraged to put their money into buildings.
I would also point out to the minister that while some of the suggestions I have made might result in higher costs, since they include higher wages to attract men into the building industry, and since in order to speed up the production of building supplies these tradesmen may have to get more, that is not necessarily the whole picture. We do not want the veteran particularly, or for that matter anyone, to acquire a house at the present time at an inflated level. Therefore I suggest that in addition to the financial measures the minister mentioned this afternoon the government might well give consideration to a further cut in the interest rate on the loans which go to finance these dwelling units. If the rate were cut to perhaps three per cent the minister would find that over a long period of years during which the cost of the house is amortized, with the lower interest cost which bulks as a large part of the total, the monthly cost to the purchaser would be substantially reduced.
I want the minister and the government to look upon the housing crisis at the present time just as they looked upon the war emergency. If it were a question of making tanks or aeroplanes or bombs to beat Hitler, with the ability the right hon. minister showed during the war-and, may I say, with an unlimited pocketbook-we must forget some of these financial considerations to some extent until we get over this crisis-if he would look upon this housing crisis as an emergency I have no doubt he would find the men and materials in fairly short order to solve the problem which faces our people at the present time. If he will go and meet the people who are up against it he will realize that this problem constitutes a crisis of the first order. Therefore I suggest, sir, that the proposals made by the minister this afternoon are not adequate; they are not of a sufficiently longterm nature really to solve this crisis. I suggest further that the government is not giving the forceful, immediate leadership required if we are to have any solution of this problem in the next one or two or three years. To wait five or ten years is to wait too long.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair.


Donald Methuen Fleming: There are some questions I should like to ask the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply. First, in the target of

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60,000	houses which he set for the current fiscal year, he did not indicate how that was broken down among the various agencies, private enterprise, Wartime Housing Limited, Housing Enterprises Limited, and so on, except that he gave a figure of 3,400 as the programme for Housing Enterprises Limited for the calendar year. Would the minister be good enough to indicate how the 60,000 figure is broken down, according to the estimates of the department? I might point out that when the minister gave his estimate last fall it was broken down in that way.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am sorry I have not before me a copy of my own figures; but, as I recall it, about 15,000 are under construction at the present time under one or other of the government-assisted plans and subject to priority. The other 45,000 are being built privately, without government assistance. I think that is about the proportion.


Donald Methuen Fleming: May we take it, then, that about 11,000 or 11,500 are to be built under government assistance other than Housing Enterprises Limited?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, at least that number; I would think more.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Of those to be built by Wartime Housing Limited, is the minister in a position to indicate how many are being constructed with cellars and how many without?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I believe there are only three or four projects with full basements, of which three are in the city of Toronto and one in the city of Ottawa. The basement adds $7 a month to the rent, and there are not many cities that want to pay the extra cost. Wartime Housing Limited is just as willing to build a basement under a house as not, provided that it can get a return on the investment.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I do not wish to monopolize the floor, Mr. Chairman, because these *questions are not interrelated, but if no one else has any questions to ask, perhaps I might continue. As to the figure the minister gave this afternoon of completed houses, is the committee to understand that those are houses completed and occupied?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Sometimes there is some misunderstanding as to what the completion of a house consists of. May we take it that these are houses completed and occupied?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Donald Methuen Fleming: And that figure of 46,900 includes reconversions?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, though I believe the reconversion figures for 1946 are very small.
I think the figures I gave are practically all those of Wartime Housing Limited, which at that time had not been handling reconversions. According to this schedule, the house must be completed in every particular and the lag between the report of full completion and occupancy is seldom more than a day or two.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Is the government keeping any statistics of houses occupied? I asked some questions a while ago, and the answers seemed to indicate that the government is not keeping any statistics of actual occupation. The estimates of completion do not necessarily take account of occupation.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Every week a report is put on my desk showing the position of each project in each locality, the number of houses completed and the number of houses occupied. I have been interested in observing that the lag between houses completed and houses occupied is quite small. We have full statistics and I shall be glad to bring them.


Donald Methuen Fleming: This afternoon the minister referred to priorities as regards veterans' housing and the reduction in the requirements as to progress from seventy-five to fifty per cent under a recent order. What additional priorities are in effect besides that type of priority and those which exist in connection with Wartime Housing Limited and Housing Enterprises Limited?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There are the priorities in connection with integrated housing where a contractor proceeds under a government plan with a guaranteed selling price. There is a guarantee by the government that if he does not sell the house the government will buy it at the predetermined price.


Donald Methuen Fleming: What degree of cooperation has existed between the Department of Reconstruction and Supply and wartime prices and trade board with respect to the fixing of prices for materials? As the hon. member for Rosedale indicated to-night, this matter of price ceilings on building materials has been a thorny subject. I need not remind the minister that a great many producers have been complaining bitterly about the domestic ceilings on building products and have indicated that they prefer to send more of their products abroad where the prices yielded to them are not under ceilings. I should like to know what cooperation there is between the minister's department and the prices board, because to many people it seems that there is a divergence of policy between them.
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Clarence Decatur Howe: Wartime prices and trade
board and the Department of Reconstruction and Supply work very closely together. I mentioned, this afternoon that the building coordination is handled by a committee of which the director of priorities in the department of reconstruction is a member, of which the corresponding officer in the wartime prices and trade board is a member and of which the coordinator of housing is the third member. A great deal has been said in this house about pricing interfering with production, but I have never known of a concrete case and I think I am closer to the industrial life of this country than anyone in this house, or perhaps anyone outside the house. I wish someone would give me a concrete case where price ceilings have limited production.


Mr. MERRITT:: It does not encourage
greater production.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Surely with his great knowledge of this business the hon. member will be able to tell me of one case.


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: I can give one case just
offhand in British Columbia in connection with the making of lath. The profit in making lath is not as great as that to be made in producing other types of lumber, so that there is a shortage of lath and a black market has been growing up in Vancouver.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Does the hon. member
know of any lumber operator who is not producing all the lumber he can?


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: I know of no lumber
operator who is not producing all the lumber he can, but I know of a large number of lumber operators who are making their cuts according to the different types of lumber on which they can make the most money.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Is there anything wrong with that?


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: They are not producing other types of lumber which may be equally necessary in the construction of homes but which it is not economical to produce. As a general example, I would refer to a recent situation which has been created by a change in the price of logs and in the Canadian export quota of lumber. Certain mill owners .vould find it actually more profitable to sell *'hat logs they have on hand at the higher price rather than to manufacture them into lumber.


Clarence Decatur Howe: What would the man who
bought the logs manufacture? Can my hon. friend tell me of a case where production is being curtailed by unbalanced prices?

. Mr. MERRITT: If the minister will not interrupt me I shall complete what I was going to say. Under this new regulation we have the interesting situation where there is a price ceiling on lumber and no price ceiling on logs. A $6 increase in the price of logs would make it possible for the mill owner to sell what logs he had on hand and make a better profit than if he manufactured those logs in his mill and sold the product on the open market. I do not say that the mill owners are going to do that, because obviously they have their good will to obtain and must keep their mills going. They are not going to go out of business. I am not saying that the price ceiling is likely to reduce materially the present level of production, but the way the present system of price control has worked it will prevent any great increase in production to meet this emergency.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I would point out to my hon. friend that never in the history of Canada has there been such an increase in the production in every line that is occurring from day to day. If he has followed the increase in the production of building materials during the last six months he will find that there has been nothing like it in the history of Canada. It is all very well to make sweeping statements that are reminiscent of the old days to which the bon. member who recently spoke is quite fond of referring, but it is another thing to give one specific example of curtailment of production which has been due to failure to get a fair price from the wartime prices and trade board.


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: I was speaking only on the spur of the moment.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I did not hear one example in my hon. friend's statement of an over-all lack of production. A man may buy logs from an operator who would rather sell his logs, but he must make them into lumber. I do not know what else he could do with them because he is not allowed to export them. I do not think it makes any great difference whether the first or the second man makes them into lumber.


Mr. JOHNSTON:: Would that be true in connection with the manufacture of hardwood?


Clarence Decatur Howe: As far as I know.


Charles Edward Johnston: I was told by the manager of one of the largest lumber companies in the west that he was informed by the mills from which he was getting lumber that they were not going to produce any more

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hardwood flooring until they got a higher price and until the excess profits tax was taken off.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I never heard of it. The production of hardwood flooring is quite satisfactory. It was down a few months ago but it is much better to-day. I know of no particular hold-up in hardwood flooring.


Charles Edward Johnston: They tell me in Calgary that there is absolutely no oak flooring coming in at all, and there has not been any for nearly a year.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Will my hon. friend tell me where oak flooring is produced in this country?


Charles Edward Johnston: I am asking the minister if that is true in the case of oak flooring?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Oak is imported. I do not know of any oak trees in this country.


Howard Charles Green: I have three or four questions to ask the minister. In his statement this afternoon he said on several occasions that he was trying to help private enterprise in every way possible to develop this building programme; that he relied on private enterprise primarily for the building of homes in Canada. I think in that he was quite sound, and that when this crisis is all over it will be found that the vast majority of the homes built have been built by private enterprise. But is there not a danger that the priorities in supplies as now set will greatly discourage the private builder? For example, the minister pointed out this afternoon that there is a priority for Wartime Housing Limited and I think he said also for Housing Enterprises Limited, and of course also for homes being built under the Veterans Land Act. The result of all that is that in Vancouver the private builder is under a great handicap in getting materials. There are perhaps hundreds of houses there that are not being completed because the builder cannot get the materials he requires. Is there not some way in which the priorities can be changed so that there will be a more even distribution of the supplies?
The minister said that later in the year he hoped to change these priorities so that the private builder could get more material than he is getting now. I think the present plan is working a hardship on the small builder. Take, for example, the small lumber yard. I know of several that have been closed up, practically put out of business. Whether that will be their permanent condition or not I do not know.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Give me the names of one or two.


Howard Charles Green: I was told that by one of them when I was in Vancouver a couple of weeks ago.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The retail lumber yards have never made as much money in their history as they have in the last year. I cannot imagine why they would close down.


Howard Charles Green: If the minister checks he will find that many retail lumber yards in Vancouver are doing practically no business at all, that they are practically out of business.
On the question of priorities, I think there should be a change made if we are to bring about the result we are all after, which is more completed houses. At the present time there are hundreds of houses that are only half built.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The government gives priority to Wartime Housing Limited, to Housing Enterprises Limited and to integrated housing.


Howard Charles Green: The integrated business is a very small part.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, it is a very big thing. Any contractor building a group of houses can qualify for integrated housing, if he will limit the selling price of his house to a spread which the government considers fair. In return he gets a guarantee that if he cannot sell the house at the price agreed upon, the government will buy it from him. If he will accept that profit limitation, he can get priority. He must also accept the restriction that he will sell only to a veteran of the last war. If he will do that any contractor can come under the integrated housing plan and get the priorities under P.O.ll.


Howard Charles Green: How many men have done that in Canada?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think between 4,000 and
5,000	houses are being built under that plan.


Howard Charles Green: By how many contractors?
Mr. HOWE. A great number of contractors. A contractor will put up perhaps twenty-five to fifty houses, and there are about 4,000 of these houses. It is a common method of operating. But of course a good many contractors will say: I will not take $300 to build a house; I want $1,000 or $1,500. If they do, they are on their own and do not get the priorities. Some of them do not like the restriction as to selling to a veteran. They want to sell to whom they like, and therefore they do not qualify. But I think the amount of material that is under priority is not sufficient to handicap greatly a man who has no priority.
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Of course, if everybody had priority it would not be any good at all. It would be just like extending the civil service preference now applicable to veterans to everybody.


Howard Charles Green: I did not suggest that.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, I know my hon. friend did not, but I am simply pointing out that if everybody got priorities there would be no priorities. We are attempting to assist a class of people whose building will be most beneficial to the returned man; in other words, those who are putting up low-rental housing or housing to be sold with a profit limitation, all of which are for veterans exclusively. For these types of housing we do give a priority. They probably amount to twenty-five per cent of all the houses being built.


Howard Charles Green: Conditions may be different in different cities; I have no doubt they are, but I am sure most veterans would go to a contractor to have a home built. If they did that, they would not get the help of these priorities?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Not unless the contractor was under the integrated tplan.


Howard Charles Green: I can quite understand that many contractors do not want to be tied up with all the red tape involved in dealing with governmental authority, making all these returns, having inspections, and so on. Has the minister any plan in mind for changing the priorities later this year? I think he said something to that effect this afternoon.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We have one other type of priority which I have mentioned before. That is, if a veteran goes ahead and makes his own arrangements, starts a house, gets it seventy-five per cent completed, and needs only certain materials to finish it which do not amount to more than twenty-five per cent of the cost of the house, he is placed under a priority for these items. I said that we hoped to lower the contents which would permit us to give priorities for the remainder, and we have now lowered that amount to fifty per cent. If a veteran has his house framed, and with a roof on, we will give him priorities for all material that he needs from there on. The reason we require him to have a substantial investment in the house, if he is proceeding on his own, outside any government plan is that we know from experience that every house that is started will be started by a veteran, and we want to make sure that it is bona fide owned by a veteran.


Howard Charles Green: I would suggest that the
minister have his department look into this priority question again.

My second point has to do with allotments of building materials. I understood the minister to say this afternoon that there are quotas for different towns, the idea being that Vancouver would get her share, Halifax her share, Ottawa her share, and so on. That, I think, is quite fair. But is there any plan for ensuring a fair distribution between contractors within the same area, say within the city of Ottawa?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Contractors buy from dealers, and all we can do is assure reasonable distri-buUon among dealers and a reasonable distribution between one area and another.


Howard Charles Green: What does the minister mean by "fair distribution among dealers"? How high up are they; that is, how far away from the ultimate buyer?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The dealers?


Howard Charles Green: Yes.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The lumber we work as of a certain date. If the sales of a yard in the trial period were a certain amount they would be increased proportionately if more material is available, and reduced proportionately if less material is available.


Howard Charles Green: Is there any plan whereby, say a lumber yard in Vancouver gets a certain proportion of the lumber available for that area?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes; if he was in business in the trial period, which I believe was 1941, the allocation would be based on the amount allocated to him in 1941.


Howard Charles Green: Who does that allotting?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The wartime prices and trade board.


Howard Charles Green: I am quite sure that that system is not working out in that way now in Vancouver. There is supposed to be an allotment among dealers in proportion to the supplies they were buying in 1941?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: Would the minister have that checked?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Would the hon. member have it checked? It is easier for him than for me. I have to check the whole country.


Howard Charles Green: The information I have is that it is not being done. I realize that it is the wartime prices and trade board that is to blame, perhaps, that it is not the Minister of Reconstruction, but I suggest that he find out just what is wrong in that regard.

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The third question has to do with the types of houses. The other day in the special committee on veterans affairs Mr. Van Norman, an architect who has just returned from Great Britain, gave evidence in which he explained that over there	they	had worked	out typesof houses which	could be put	up	most economically as regards both price and material. Is anything of that sort being done in Canada? It may Be that we shall have to adopt some new type of house	in order	to	meet therequirements; is	any	planning	of	that type
being done in the provinces or here at Ottawa?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Well, the planning of wartime houses has been under constant study and review from the day the first house was built. I think we have been exceedingly fortunate in the types of plan we have chosen for wartime housing. I think the Vancouver house has been altered six times, each time an improvement at lower cost. The hon. member speaks of Mr. Van Norman, the architect. Mr. Van Norman is one of the architects engaged in veterans housing.


Howard Charles Green: I do not mean, on the government projects; I mean, for ordinary building. Most of the homes in Canada are going to be built by private builders. Has anything been done to help find a standard type of house for them which can be built, perhaps, a good deal cheaper than houses are built now, and with less material? Mr. Van Norman explained to us how in Great Britain they have it worked out so that they have a standard cut of lumber, for example, which can be used in many different houses and brings about a great saving. Is there any branch under the minister which does planning of that type, that is, trying to work out a more up-to-date house for the Canadian people?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. The national research council have an active department. They have put out interesting publications; in fact I think they have a monthly publication which shows suggested improvements in housing. We have in Canada two or three pre-cut designs which are available to builders if they wish. Of course a pre-cut design is valuable only if a great number of units are to be built from the same design. The private builder is usually -trying to carry out the wishes of his prospective purchaser rather than to work on a pre-designed plan. So that I think the pre-designed planning is confined largely to government agencies. But it is available to anyone who cares to use it.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Van Norman said, if I remember correctly, that we are still building the type of house that we had a hundred
years ago, that the fundamental plan for a house in Canada is the same now as it was many years ago, that we are not really as up to date with houses as we might be.
The final question has to do with the price of lumber, about which there was some discussion a few minutes ago. Why is it that there is a ceiling retained on lumber when the ceiling was taken off logs? As I understand it, there is now no ceiling at all on the price of logs, whereas it has been kept on lumber. I cannot understand just why it has been worked out in that way, because I am told by different people who are in the business, and who are entirely reliable and know what they are talking about, that in some cases the logs are worth more than the lumber. They are able to make up for that to a degree by selling a portion of their production in the export market; that is the way they have been getting around the trouble. But what consideration has been given to lifting the ceiling on lumber? We are told that lumber is really a capital expenditure, not like the purchase of food or clothing, and there is quite a strong feeling that there would be far more lumber produced if the ceiling were lifted. I do not know whether that is correct or not: the minister has his own officials who, I have no doubt, have gone into this question carefully. But would he explain the position to us?


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend advocates the lifting of the ceiling on lumber.


Howard Charles Green: Now just a minute: I did not advocate it. I am asking the minister a question.


Clarence Decatur Howe: What the effect would be?


Howard Charles Green: What the department thinks about lifting the ceiling on lumber.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The price would go up around $20 a thousand, at least fifty per cent. If the ceiling were lifted, the price of a house would go up perhaps $600 to $1,000.


Howard Charles Green: They say it might go up $100 or $200.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It would go up much more than that if the increase in price is what I think it would be. Lumber is being sold freely for export at $15 to $20 a thousand more than it is being sold for in the domestic market.
The reason that we took the ceiling off logs was that we are not particularly interested in the price of logs. Logs are not a consumer article. The finished lumber is the consumer article. Frankly, it was reported to me that
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there was such a' black market in logs that the ceiling meant very little in any event, the buyers being the mills. We can control the price of finished lumber, and we do that exactly in the same way that there is no ceiling on beef cattle; there is a ceiling on beef. It is quite usual in price control to put the control on the finished article.


Howard Charles Green: There is one very unfair feature about it, and that is that the big company which produces logs and also, cuts lumber has an advantage over the small sawmill which has to buy the logs at a high price and then sell the lumber under a ceiling price; that may very well drive some of the small sawmills in our province out of business.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Unless the. logs are bought and sawn into lumber the price of logs will not be quite so high.


Howard Charles Green: But the big man has his own logs; he does not have to buy logs.


Clarence Decatur Howe: But somebody pays these excessive prices for logs.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I should like to ask the minister a few questions bearing directly on the resolution before us. First of all, with respect to section 1 of the resolution, may I ask if all matters relating to housing, except the matters coming under the Minister of Veterans Affairs, are now under the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Stanley Howard Knowles: What about the orders in council relating to rent control and things of that nature? Are they still under the Minister of Finance, or have they been transferred to the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Rent control is under the wartime prices and trade board. That has to do with housing, though not of the type that we deal with.


Stanley Howard Knowles: With reference to section 2 of the resolution, may I ask whether the provision in the bill, foreshadowed by this section, clearly holds it to such cases as the minister pointed out? He referred to land in the national parks as an example covered by this section. Or does it provide for limited-dividend corporations building homes on property they merely lease rather than own outright?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I can hardly imagine a government agency lending money on houses where the control of the land is no't permanently in the government. It could do it in the parks, because the control of park lands is in the

hands of the government, but I cannot imagine a corporation lending money to build houses on land merely leased from a private citizen.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I could hardly imagine it either, but I felt that I ought to make sure of the point in view of the language of this section, which refers to the making of loans for the construction of homes for home owners who have only a leasehold interest in the land upon which the home is to be built. However, since the minister satisfies me on that point, that is fine.
With respect to section 4, which has to do with the integrated housing matter, is this the only case where the government agrees to buy back homes after a certain stipulated period of time?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. The integrated housing plan is the only plan under which the government takes an interest in the building of houses for sale.


Stanley Howard Knowles: May I now jump to section 6 and ask whether it has to do only with the management of homes that come to the government under the operation of section 4, or is it wider than that?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That includes houses which might be acquired under the integrated housing plan or houses which might be acquired by foreclosure under mortgage. Houses, however acquired, would be managed under the provisions of article 6.


Stanley Howard Knowles: One other question. There are really two, but one of them had better wait until we get the bill, namely, what the provisions are under section 7. Under section 5, however, would the minister indicate in what way these loans to mining and lumber companies will make for the provision of moderate costing houses? Merely to provide a loan does not ensure that these houses will be in that range. Will the minister indicate what special provisions attach to the loans or under what section of existing legislation they come?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Section 5 simply covers the objective. I suggest to my hon. friend that the means by which the objective is attained would be more properly discussed under the bill when the details are presented.


Stanley Howard Knowles: That is fine. We shall
do so.


Donald Methuen Fleming: May I come back to the last question I asked the minister a few minutes ago and his answer to it. Are we to take it that the minister and his department are in

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touch, through the arrangement he mentioned, with the prices of all building materials and that they keep a check upon them?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Very much so.


Donald Methuen Fleming: In deciding whether the price is fair, reasonable and adequate, does the department or the committee to which the minister has referred take account of the profit made by producers in the export market, and of the differential between prices in the export market and those prevailing in the domestic market?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is the over-all profit that guides the wartime prices and trade board in fixing the price for that portion of the product which is sold in the domestic market. Very few building materials are allowed to enter the export market. In the case of lumber, forty-five per cent of all lumber goes into the export market, and the price of that lumber in that market is the reason why the domestic price can be kept at cost and sometimes below cost. In other words, the over-all profit position of the lumber producer is satisfactory.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Not long ago the minister appointed a coordinator of housing, Mr. Flahiff. Will the minister indicate this gentleman's precise duties, especially in relation to the expedition of construction materials, and how his duties relate to those of Mr. Mansur, president of Central Mortgage and Housing corporation?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Mansur is president of
Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation and is responsible for policy in the field of housing. Mr. Flahiff's position is that of coordinator of housing. It is his duty to coordinate all agencies having to do with the production of houses. For example, Mr. Flahiff is in touch with the director of priorities in his branch and in touch with wartime prices in matters where price enters into housing, and generally he coordinates all the separate branches that work with Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation in the field of housing.


Donald Methuen Fleming: This afternoon the minister said that the government will help the producers of building materials to meet their cost. I believe he was speaking with relation to the means of expanding their production. Will he elaborate that statement in some detail. In that connection, he mentioned the double depreciation allowance made against taxes. Will he amplify that?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I would need to have an
official with me to make such statements correctly. We have offered inducements to 63260-234
builders to expand production, but I would not care to say from memory what the inducements were. However, I shall be glad to answer my hon. friend when the bill is being discussed and the officials are here to give information.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The minister referred
more than once to-day to the report which was furnished to him by the special committee of the Canadian construction association who advised him with regard to bottlenecks in connection with building materials. Will he table that report so that it may be available for the information of the house?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There was a series of reports. There was a separate report on materials. I shall be glad to take the question under advisement. At the moment I can think of no reason why it should not be tabled, but I shall examine into the situation and give my hon. friend a reply to-morrow.


Donald Methuen Fleming: This afternoon the minister referred to the arrangements made with the university of Toronto with reference to the occupation of Ajax and the buildings there. Is any of the housing accommodation at Ajax still retained for the use of any of the former workmen or any workmen engaged in the vicinity? My understanding is that all the housing accommodation did not go to the university; some of it was retained.


Clarence Decatur Howe: As I remember it, Ajax is
made up of some four or five hundred wartime houses and certain other facilities besides the former shell-filling plant. Many of the houses are rented to former employees of Ajax. In other words, _ the lease to the university of Toronto did not include the wartime housing development which is still administered by Wartime Housing. As houses become vacant, they are reserved for returned men attending the university of Toronto, but there have been no evictions of former tenants. Therefore I presume the majority of the inhabitants are former tenants who worked in the war plant.


Donald Methuen Fleming: When we have the bill
before us and the minister brings down this additional information will he also give us a detailed breakdown of the 60,000 target for this year? He indicated earlier that he did not have the figures. I think the committee would be interested in having the precise breakdown between private enterprise and the various government agencies.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Would the minister be good enough to give an answer to the sug-

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gestion I made? In view of the substantial increase in the export of newsprint, the labour involved in creating that newsprint might well be put to use in increasing the supply of lumber for the building industry.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Would my hon. friend expand that suggestion? How could it be done?


Harry Rutherford Jackman: A little while ago the minister said that persons on this side of the house, probably myself as much as anyone, made sweeping statements. Here we have companies engaged in the newsprint business and in lumbering, sometimes the same company. Certainly in the same areas there are trees which are suitable for lumber and trees which are suitable for newsprint. The same lumberjacks who cut down the small trees, the products of which go over to the United States to enlarge the newspapers there which are already of ample size, might well be used for felling trees which would go to the making of lumber for houses which we are so much interested in at the present time. I do not think it needs any more explanation than that. I quite realize that newsprint machines are still not operating at 100 per cent capacity, but they are operating about as high as they ever get. What I am more concerned in is the use of man-power in the woods in the cutting down of spruce trees for pulpwood at a time when the same men might be used, sometimes in almost exactly the same areas, for the cutting down of trees for lumber.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Let us assume for the moment that I agree with my hon. friend. How would it be brought about? Since he made the suggestion he should follow it through and help save us a lot of wony.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: It is not very often that the minister asks for suggestions, and I do not know that he has the right to ask us how he is to administer his department. Much as I dislike controls-much more than the minister does himself-it seems to me that to a large extent we are in a controlled economy; and while we have an emergency such as this one -and if the minister knew more about actual cases he would feel it more deeply-I believe that if necessary he should say, you shall do this and you shall do that in this particular regard until we are over the hump in the housing crisis. I believe the minister has all the power that he needs, and if he does not have it this house would give him the necessary power to see that fairness is done. Eor the time being, I am more interested in food, clothing and shelter for our people than I am in building up our exports, valuable as they are at the present time. I suggest that the minister is quite able to do what I suggest,

and he knows the means much better than I do because he uses this power every day of his life.


Mr. GIBSON (Comox-AJberni):: Is lumber the limiting factor?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I take it that the hon. member for Rosedale wants us to go back to the war period and direct labour to certain operations.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: If the minister has not enough regard for the people of this country to see that there are roofs over their heads- if he came to Toronto and saw some of the cases he would understand what I mean- if he prefers to let these people continue as they are at the present time than to have the products of our woods sent to the United States in the form of newsprint then I think it is time we had a change of government.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: You have thought that for a long time, but it has not done you much good so far.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: The people of Rosedale thought a change of government was desirable.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: A magnificent fellow.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: In reply to a question of the hon. member for Vancouver South regarding veterans priorities the minister said that the veteran had to have the building only fifty per cent completed at the present time to get priorities for the remainder. Does that cover priorities on plumbing? I understood that they had to have the building seventy-five per cent completed to get priority on plumbing.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That has been changed.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I am glad to hear it.


John Lambert Gibson: Is the production of lumber the limiting factor in the construction of houses in Canada, or is it plumbing fixtures, electrical supplies and so on? I do not believe it is due entirely to shortage of lumber.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No; lumber is hard to get, but certainly if fifty per cent or thirty per cent of the lumber went into housing we would have too much lumber for housing. In other words, a comparatively small part of our lumber cut is absorbed by housing, and it is not the limiting factor. I know of no cases where shortage of lumber has limited the production of houses.


Charles Edward Johnston: That would probably be true of the rough lumber. But what about doors and finished lumber, plumbing, and things like that? Would that not be a limiting factor? There never was much difficulty with regard to the dimension stuff.

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Clarence Decatur Howe: No. There is little difficulty with it at the moment. There is no great difficulty with doors, but there is great difficulty in brass pipe. Our production gets out of step, but roughly it has marched together, and roughly it has improved in all directions. The finish is very much improved. We have taken one big aeroplane plant which was formerly making prefabricated houses and is now making trim. Gradually we are bringing up the spots that get out of step, but they will never be perfectly balanced. In other words, all the items which go into a house will not be in perfect balance but they are getting more that way every day.


Charles Edward Johnston: Does this new set-up contemplate taking over the construction of Veterans Land Act houses from now on?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Charles Edward Johnston: I want to know that because I should like to discuss it when the estimates of the Minister of Veterans Affairs are before the committee. I do not want to miss that opportunity. I notice that paragraph 4 of the resolution refers to what I believe to be-a new venture. Under-this paragraph the Department of Reconstruction is to finance these houses; at least the contractor is going to build them and offer them for sale. If he cannot sell them the government comes into the picture. Is that a new departure?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No; it has been in force for nearly a year.


Stanley Howard Knowles: By order in council.


Clarence Decatur Howe: By order in council. It has been working very well.. The government has not yet had to buy a house and probably never will. The cost limitation, which is a condition of entering the agreement, has been very valuable to the veteran who is the purchaser of the house.


Charles Edward Johnston: I have never had a great deal of criticism of wartime housing or national housing. I think it would be wrong in principle to get away from the established practice the government has followed in handling housing under the national housing plan. As far as I know, the houses built under that plan were well built. I have not a great deal to say in regard to the wartime houses built by the Department of Reconstruction, mainly because I- have not taken as much interest in them as I took in the veterans houses, which were very poorly built indeed, and we shall have more to say on that subject when those estimates come down.
I criticized the houses built under the Veterans Land Act. My criticism was that they were being hastily constructed, and poorly constructed; and later that proved to be the fact. I want to tell the minister that just before returning to Ottawa the last time I was home, about two months ago, I went to see the wartime houses being built down by the railroad track in Calgary. Those houses were being prefabricated. I forget the name of the company building, them; I have it up in my office, but no doubt the minister will know who I mean, because I think it is the only company building wartime houses in Calgary. I went down to where they were doing this prefabrication, and I noticed one difference between the material used in the construction of those houses and the material used for the veterans houses. There was no comparison. In the veterans houses the lumber was exceedingly green; in some cases I think the leaves were still on it. The material I saw going into the wartime houses, however, was quite dry, and I think that was a great improvement. I saw them prefabricating the upstairs inside partitions, which were made with two by threes. I do not know why they used that size lumber; I am sure the specifications called for it or the contractor would not be using it. I think that is a little weak for that kind of construction. The minister may have a different idea, but I should not think an inside partition of two-by-three studding would carry plaster substantially; at any rate I have my doubts.
The other point I wanted to bring to his attention was that these were being joined with three-inch nails. The minister knows how these forms are constructed. They are laid flat on the floor; the studs are put in and the plate is put on, with the nails driven through the plate. As I stood there watching, I saw these three-inch nails being used, and in the first place I believe those nails are too small. I was doubtful as to whether or not the frames would stand much, moving, because the two nails through the plate into the end of the studding were almost touching each other, which in effect meant that you had only one nail in the plate. I was dubious about that, so I walked over to where they had a number of these frames piled up, to see if that was just a mistake in that one instance or whether it happened in other cases. I found that a number of these frames had already pulled apart. They had not been transported, except to be carried from the platform to the pile; and unless a great deal of caution was taken in moving them by
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truck or however they were taken to the point of use, I am afraid the minister is going to be in for a great deal of difficulty.
Then I want to say that when I was looking over this work I could not find the man in charge, though I asked several of the fellows working there where the foreman was. I think this was also the cause of a great deal of trouble in connection with the veterans houses. There was no foreman at all. He may have been around the pile somewhere, but I was there for at least three-quarters of an hour and could not find him. I believe there was not competent inspection in connection with the veterans' houses, and I think that was the reason for a great deal of the trouble experienced at that time. When that matter comes up again I tlhink I may be able to show more clearly that this is so, and I would suggest to the minister that more caution should be exercised in connection with the construction of these houses, otherwise he is going to have a great deal of trouble later on.


Mr. PEARKES:: I should like to offer a few observations regarding section 5, the section dealing with the new policy of lending directly to operators in the lumbering and mining industries in out-of-the-way places, and to ask for a little more information. I am convinced from what I have seen that one of the great difficulties has been a shortage of labour in the woods, and in many cases that has been so because the men have been unwilling to go into the woods and leave their families in the cities. If houses can be built nearer the mills and in the logging areas where, there will be a sustained yield for a number of years, I am quite certain production can be increased. Up to now the difficulty has been that none of the housing schemes has been considered by the operators to be sufficiently flexible; in fact they say they have been required to put too much of their available capital into the building of houses. I should like to observe that the operators have been put to heavy expense recently in order to develop their industry. It requires a great deal of capital to build the railways and roads up the mountainside, to purchase modern equipment and to build the new mills which have been constructed at many points. They have not a great deal of capital left. So I hope that when these loans are to be made the department will take into consideration the fact that the loans must cover a large proportion of the amount which will be invested. Before any houses can be built, sites have to be cleared; perhaps drainage must be put in, and water and sometimes light brought to

the area. So that there is a good deal of outlay on the part of the borrower before he can actually begin to build1 houses. I do not believe the houses themselves will be a heavy item of expense in the development of these particular schemes. I wonder if the minister could give us a little more information with regard to what percentage will be lent; what interest will have to be paid; whether these houses will be reserved onjy for veterans or whether any employee may occupy them; whether they will be transferable from a rental basis to a purchase basis later on, and so on. Many of the employees would prefer to rent houses for a while and perhaps eventually buy them when they found themselves settled in the particular area. These are some of the points on which I would ask the minister to be kind enough to give us a little further information.


Clarence Decatur Howe: From the remarks of my hon. friend I assume that he is in agreement with the objective mentioned in the resolution. It would be difficult to deal with the provisions of the bill itself, which his questions cover, until the bill is brought down. The resolution simply deals with the objectives of the legislation. If the resolution is carried the bill will be distributed immediately, and it will be much easier for my hon. friend and much easier for me if we discuss the provisions of the bill when all members have it before them.


Mr. LOCKHART:: There is one bit of information I should like to get which I may not be able to ask under any clause of the bill. The minister has referred on numerous occasions to prefabricated houses and I wish to know if the prices of these houses are checked and approved before they are offered for sale to veterans and, if so, by whom?


Clarence Decatur Howe: If a manufacturer of prefabricated houses desires priority assistance, as most of them do, the project is examined in detail, the prices to be charged are considered, and the recommendation for priority contains the information which must be satisfactory to the officers of the department. However, this does not prevent anyone who wishes to manufacture prefabricated houses without priority assistance from doing so.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: I can give one specific instance, although I shall not mention the name of the firm which has enlarged its output of prefabricated houses. A four-roomed unit measuring approximately twenty-six feet by twenty-seven feet six inches, with a flat roof, is being offered at approximately $5,400. Yet-

Housing Act
erans are looking at these houses but they must have $1,400 as a down payment. I was just wondering whether these selling prices are checked, because this seems to be a lot of money for a flat-roofed four-roomed cottage with no architecture to it at all.


Clarence Decatur Howe: As I say, any company desiring priority assistance would have the f.o.b. factory price checked. Of course, after the cost of foundation and the cost of the land are added to the factory price, the total cost might run up to $5,400. I do not know of any prefabricated unit that sells f.o.b. factory at anything like that price; the price is usually somewhere around $3,000.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The hon. member for
Bow River endeavoured to-night to repeat certain allegations which he made in this house on March 28 with regard to certain houses in Calgary.


Charles Edward Johnston: On a point of order, if
we are going to discuss the Veterans Land Act I want to know it. I have no objection to the minister carrying on this discussion, but I want to know what is going to happen.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I did not bring it up; my hon. friend brought it up. I want to say that I have abundant evidence from the settlers themselves of their complete satisfaction with these houses. I have an official letter from the city engineer of Calgary justifying these houses. This evidence disproves in their entirety the remarks made by the hon. member for Bow River.


Charles Edward Johnston: That was never disproved in the committee. I shall be only too pleased to have this discussed and I hope the minister brings his evidence before the committee.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I challenge my hon.
friend to bring his evidence before the veterans affairs committee.


Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: It is not my intention to delay the committee at this stage, although this matter is the subject of considerable concern to the people in my constituency and to the people of Nova Scotia. I am at some disadvantage in entering into this discussion at this time because, owing to train connections coming to Ottawa from Nova Scotia, I was not able to be here during the early part of the discussion. There is a feeling in my constituency and in Nova Scotia that we are being discriminated against in connection with the securing of materials to complete the construction of such buildings as have been started. Certain materials have
been available, but others have not and the whole operation has been held up. There is a great deal of disappointment among the people, notably the returned men. I should like to put on record a telegram which I received a few days ago from the president of the Canadian Legion, branch No. 10, Amherst, Nova Scotia. This telegram, which is addressed to me, reads:
At a regular executive meeting of this organization the deplorable housing conditions of this town were discussed. I was instructed to contact you and ask you to intercede for us on this urgent matter. At this moment we have over forty veterans in desperate need of housing facilities immediately. Wartime Housing informs us that their facilities have been completely exhausted and that no further assistance will be forthcoming this year unless new houses are constructed. We ask that immediate action be taken by the government.
J. Lome McLellan, president,
Canadian Legion, branch No. 10.
I could follow that up and give more detailed information with respect to conditions in my constituency, but I shall not do so at the present time. However, I want to point out that the citizens generally and the returned men in particular are interested in the resolution which is before the house at the present time. I hope that as a result of the passing of this resolution, material will be in greater supply and that the present needs in all parts of Canada, particularly in the parts to which I have referred, can be met and the situation relieved. I shall not say any more than to point out that the situation is urgent and the need is great. These people are very deserving and they should have all the assistance possible in order that they may secure housing.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I suggest to my hon. friend
that he is putting in his complaint at the wrong end. Before we can build wartime housing we must have a request from the city in question. I am quite certain that no request has been received for wartime housing from the city of Amherst.


Percy Chapman Black: I have on my file a copy of a letter dated April 11, 1946, from the town clerk of Amherst to the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply. It reads:
At the last regular meeting of the town council held on April 8, 1946, the urgent need for additional houses for the town of Amherst was under discussion. Our present wartime houses are being taken up by service personnel and at March 31 they had fifty applications on their waiting list, further to this we have a new industry opening in Amherst that will employ some eighty-five men and they already have applications in for eight houses and the Standard Chemical Company, who are opening a salt mine in Nappan, anticipate some two hundred employees w'ithin the next year and have already asked for ten houses immediately.
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In consideration of this situation we urgently request that one hundred prefabricated houses be erected in Amherst at the earliest possible date. Sites are now available for these houses.
We would appreciate you directing this application to the proper departments.
Yours very truly,
V. G. Fuller, town clerk.
I took the matter up and could not get an undertaking that Wartime Housing Limited was in a position to respond to the request. I do not take the minister to task for not being familiar with these applications, but he is in error because there has been a direct application from the town of Amherst to the minister himself personally for additional housing in the town of Amherst.


Mr. BENTLEY:: There is at the present time quite a shortage of cement in Saskatchewan. Inquiry was made in the old country to find out if it would be possible to ship cement from there through the Hudson bay port of Churchill during the summer season. The minister told us last year that the port was open for only a couple of months, so that any shipment would have to be hurried. The reply from the old country was that they had been informed by the authorities that all requirements for cement in Canada had been adequately provided for by Canadian manufacturers. If that is correct, why cannot we get cement? I know the government is austere in its wartime housing building and thinks basements are frivolous, but there are still a lot of old-fashioned people who like basements and need cement to build them. In one village in Saskatchewan I know of a church, a store, and two or three houses which have the basements dug and are held up because they cannot get cement. Are Canadian manufacturers manufacturing all the cement that is required in Canada, or has Lord Beaverbrook forgotten Canada?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The production of cement is slightly out of step owing to the concentrated demand in the early months of the summer. But in another month or two there should be plenty of cement. At the moment there are shortages. Nevertheless the production of cement is far higher to-day than at any time in our history. I suggest that before my hon. friend buys cement from the old country and ships it through Hudson bay he ascertain what the price is in the old country. It would stagger him compared with the price in Saskatchewan.


Mr. McKAY:: There is a heavy demand to-day for small homes, particularly for veterans. Is there any ceiling on the amount of materials that an individual may use in the construction of a private dwelling? Travel-

ling in the east, I have noticed in the west end of Montreal houses being built that I would classify as mansions. Is there a ban on homes of ten or fifteen rooms being constructed at the present time? If there is, where are these people getting the materials? Is there such a thing as a black market? I believe that in the United Kingdom there is a ceiling in the vicinity of $7,000 in order to ensure that building materials will be distri- [DOT] buted around and that veterans and others needing small homes will be provided for. Yet in Montreal I.saw these mansions being built; we see the construction of garages right in the city of Ottawa, and I believe recently a contract was let for the building of a theatre. That sort of thing is inexcusable when veterans are going without homes, and there are scores of them right here in Ottawa who are still looking for homes. I would ask the minister to state if there is a ceiling on construction costs in house building, and if so, just how is it applied?


Clarence Decatur Howe: So far as I am aware, any man in this country can build anything he likes. There is no restriction on anyone.


Eric Bowness McKay: Is that a proper thing when veterans are going without homes?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I was going on to say that priority assistance is given only for homes costing $6,000 or less. That is the only type of building in which the government is giving assistance. If anyone can buy the material he can build anything he likes.


Thomas John Bentley: A contract has been let for the building of a theatre in Ottawa, and a lot of cement blocks are going in there. Are thpre no priorities on cement?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Theatres have no priority. There is no priority on anything except housing costing $6,000 or less.


Thomas John Bentley: Anybody can buy all the supplies they want?


Clarence Decatur Howe: If they can get them.


Thomas John Bentley: And houses must wait while theatres are built?


Stanley Howard Knowles: How do they get the materials if there is a priority for $6,000 homes?


Mr. STEPHENSON:: In my district Wartime Housing Limited have said that they might be held up in the near future for the lack of nails. I brought this question up in the house in May last and a statement was made which I think should be clarified. In the Toronto Globe and Mail appears this article:

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Ottawa, May 30.-There is strong official suspicion that the acute shortage of nails reported to be holding up Canada's construction programme is being accentuated at least by smuggling operations across the border for black market sale.
Canada's nail production described in the Commons by Reconstruction Minister C. D. Howe as going at full capacity, should be quite sufficient to meet even the increased Canadian demand. In fact,' in actual figures, Canada is consuming only a percentage of stocks which should be on hand.
One clue to the situation is the demand from the United States coming through the legitimate channels, a demand which is blocked by refusal to issue export permits to fill the orders.
One recent application was made for a permit to export a substantial shipment to the United States to be sold at $1 per pound. Other applications have quoted as high as $50 a keg. This compares with black market prices in Canada running to $24 a keg.
Retail price of nails on the legitimate Canadian markets is about 8 cents a pound-if available.
While investigations carried on by the steel controller have failed so far to unearth evidence of illegitimate cross-the-border operations, it is pointed out that it is extremely difficult to check a bootleg movement of this kind.
The present shortages are attributed to three main causes:
1.	Stock-piling by Canadian producers and distributors who are holding out in the hope of increased steel prices and a corresponding prices board adjustment in nail prices. The last increase was granted in March. This is believed to be the largest contributor to shortages.
2.	Black market operations in Canada, said to be quite extensive.
3.	Smuggling operations across the border to take advantage of American prices.
May I ask if that is true?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The production of nails in Canada is easily checked. It is running at a very high figure, practically equivalent to the nail-producing capacity of the country. We have been trying to check the disposition of these nails. After a thorough check we can find no evidence of export operations or any evidence of stock-piling. If anybody knows where there is a warehouse full of nails, I wish he would tell me. We have been unable to find anything of the kind. The consumption of nails is difficult to explain. We cannot explain it. We think a great amount is going out of the country in packing for export. There is also no doubt that the use of green lumber has stepped up the number of nails used in building. The level of construction in this country is far higher than in any other period in our history. The shortage of nails is due to the great use of nails in construction in Canada to-day. However, we are now entering a shortage which is a real one. Nails are not being manufactured to-day in any quantity, because practically all the nail plants are on strike and the plants
which ship the primary steel to the nail plants are also on strike. So that for the next month or two, or longer if the strike lasts much longer, nails will be in very limited supply indeed. All stocks of nails have been frozen and are being diverted into low-cost priority housing. It is only a matter of time, I think, when shortage of nails will practically close down building construction in this country.


Charles Elwood Stephenson: Would it be possible for us to know how much of our production of nails is being exported?


Clarence Decatur Howe: For many months there has been an export prohibition on nails. No nails whatever are being exported from Canada through legitimate channels. I cannot speak as to bootlegging.


Mr. LENNARD:: A short time ago the minister stated that now, when a veteran had his house completed to the extent of fifty per cent, he could secure priority to finish that dwelling. I am pleased to hear that, because several months ago some cases were drawn to my attention where veterans applied for priorities to complete their dwellings, they wanted to obtain lathing, and were told that their house had first to be 75 per cent completed. That practically meant that the laths had to be on the walls before they could secure priority to obtain them. I am pleased to hear the minister's statement. When did that new order come into effect?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Last week.


Mr. ZAPLITNY:: Would the minister mind elaborating a little on the question of priorities? My mind is not clear as to whether there are priorities actually for persons building houses up to $6,000, how they go about getting them, and whether it means that those who build homes or other buildings worth over $6,000 do not require priorities but can go ahead and buy on the open market.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Everyone can buy on the open market. Everyone does buy on the open market, I suppose. The priority means that if the open market has material the man holding the priority gets it first, but he does not get it all. I suppose that priorities account for only *twenty-five to thirty per cent of materials available for house building; the other seventy or seventy-five per cent are sold on the basis of "first come, first served." Priorities are given to small house builders under certain government plans. One, Wartime Housing; second, integrated housing; third, Housing Enterprises; and fourth, emergency shelter. There is also a priority that applies to a veteran's house not built under any of these plans; provided that
Housing Act

the veteran has it fifty per cent built he is given priority for material allowing him to finish the house. If he does not come under any of these clauses he goes on the market, and we wish him well.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: I am following this up just another step. The minister states that a person building this low-cost home has a priority, but it has not been made clear over whom he has a priority because, according to the minister's own statement, another person building a more expensive home or another building may go to the same market and buy without having to have any priority. In other words, where there is no material to buy, your priority is no good; when there is material to buy, you do not need priority; you can go and buy anywhere.


Clarence Decatur Howe: To carry the analogy one step more, some material comes on the market. Suppose there is no material to-day, but to-morrow a shipment comes in; the man with the priority gets his first, before the man without a priority gets anything.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: Provided that he is there to get it.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Along these lines there is a case I should like to mention, although it is only a small matter. The other day a master plumber wrote me, and I have tried to do something about priorities for him. He has taken people into his owm house and he wants to put in some more fixtures; he has also some other jobs, but he cannot get wrought iron pipe. The work he has in hand is to accommodate veterans. Other people have done exactly the same thing; they have taken other people in, and they need more plumbing accommodation, the extra bathtub and things like that. Is he entitled to priority, or is he not? I take it that he is not. He is giving extra housing accommodation; why is he not entitled to priority?
As I said when I spoke before, many of these things are in short supply. My colleague mentioned nails the other day. Perhaps the minister knows that a number of theatres are going up, and he probably also knows that great numbers of nails are needed in such construction wrork. But these projects are not necessary, and people want houses. These large buildings which are to be erected will also require plumbing fixtures. Why should they have preference; why not put the fixtures into houses?
The minister, as I understood him, said that distribution of materials is made to certain districts. As I understand it, there is the distribution for the metropolitan district of Toronto, which takes in a wide area. The
.
mayor of Toronto has no control over what they do in Mimico or other places in the district, and when supplies are sent out to build
a theatre at Mimico the mayor of Toronto cannot forbid it simply because Toronto is short of material for housing. The situation is serious as far as building supplies are concerned. Soil pipe, wrought iron pipe fittings and other articles are in short supply. Bricks -how difficult it is to get bricks to-day; chimney linings, plumbing fixtures, and many other things are needed. It seems to me that something should be done about this situation. This is not the time to be putting up buildings which are really not necessary at present.. Or take the bank building which I previously mentioned. I like to see the bank going up; but hundreds of pounds of nails and other needed materials will be absorbed in its construction, and it seems to me a pity that the veterans are to be deprived of their houses because of limited supplies of these articles. Some consideration should be given, too, to the people who are arranging to provide accommodation for additional families and who cannot get additional bathrooms, for it is just as important to enable a family to find accommodation in an existing house as to provide a new house.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Howe thereupon moved for leave to introduce bill No. 306, to amend the National Housing Act, 1944.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



RESEARCH COUNCIL ACT


[Stage Direction]
Mr. G. J. McILRAITH (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply) moved the second reading of and concurrence in amendments made by the senate to bill No. 154, to amend the Research Council Act.
Mr. STIRLING:: Will the parliamentary
assistant comment on the amendments?


Mr. McILRAITH:: The amendments are to be found in Votes and Proceedings No. 75 of Monday, July 8. They are quite short. They do not go into the substance of the bill but rather deal with the clarification of language. The first amendment deals with section 7 of the bill, additional powers of the council, and clarifies the language to make it clear that the additional power granted the council is to carry on manufacturing of an experimental and developmental nature. It will be noted that they strike out the words "experimental

Criminal Code
and development work and manufacturing" and substitute in their place "work and manufacturing of an experimental and developmental nature." In other words, they limit the type of manufacturing that can be carried on and clarify the language in that respect.
The next amendment has to do with section 9 of the bill and is simply a matter of change in numbering the paragraphs referred to, (c),
(d), (i) and (h) so that they will read in their proper alphabetical order.
The next amendment has to do with paragraph (b) of section 4 (1) of the act. That paragraph had to do with the .council assuming control of existing companies, and the amendment brings the wording of that section into line with the wording of the section granting power to incorporate companies. It adds, after the word "companies", the following language: "incorporated under the provisions of part I of the Companies Act, 1934". It simply makes it clear that they cannot assume control of existing companies of another type. These are the only amendments.


Howard Charles Green: The official opposition concur in the amendments. As a matter of fact, the first one we suggested ourselves while the bill was under debate in this house. At least we suggested a similar amendment. I think it strengthens the bill. The other amendment that really amounts to anything at all is the fourth, and we also concur in it.


William Irvine: I am opposed to them all.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, amendments read the second time and concurred in.


[Stage Direction]
Mr. G. J. McILRAITH (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply) moved the second reading of and concurrence in amendments made by the senate to bill No. 155, respecting the operation of government companies.
He said: These amendments to bill 155 are to be found in Votes and Proceedings, No. 75 of Monday, July 8. The amendment is limited to section 10 of the bill. Section 10 deals with the contents of the annual report and provision for it to be laid before parliament. Subsection 1 as it now reads in the bill as passed by the House of Commons is as follows:
Every company shall, as soon as possible after the thirty-first day of March in each year, and in any event within three months thereof, submit to the minister an annual report in such
form as the minister may prescribe of its affairs and operations during the twelve-month period ending on the thirty-first day of March, and the minister shall lay the said report before parliament, if parliament is then in session or within fifteen days of the next session of parliament.
The senate amendment provides for the deletion of the words "in such form as the minister may prescribe" and the addition after the word "march" of the following words:
containing its financial statement and such other information as the minister may prescribe.
It is an amendment in form. It clarifies the language and makes it clear that the financial statement must be included in the annual report.
Howard Charles Green: What type of financial statement is to be submitted by these companies? Is it the financial statement as called for under the Dominion Companies Act?


George James McIlraith: It would be the financial statement as provided for by the Companies Act of 1934.


Howard Charles Green: The official opposition also concur in this amendment.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, amendments read the second time and concurred in.


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Minister of Justice) moved the second reading of bill No. 303, to amend the criminal code.
Howard Charles Green: Will the minister explain this? The hon. member for Calgary West (Mr. Smith) is not here.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I explained the purpose of this bill on the first reading thereof and discussed it afterwards with the hon. member for Calgary West. He was satisfied with the provision that was being made. This is the situation. In Saskatchewan the code provided that indictments should be tried by a jury of six persons. The government of Saskatchewan, through the attorney general, asked us to have the code amended to provide that in that province, as in most of the other provinces, trial on indictment be by a jury of twelve. That is one provision made in the bill. The other provision is to carry out an undertaking I gave the hon. member for Calgary West when my estimates were under consideration, that I would ask the house to deal at this session with the situation with respect to challenges and requests to stand aside in the selection of jurors to

Criminal Code

existed immediately before the first day of September, 1905. The Northwest Territories Act, as it existed before the first of September, 1905, gave the accused only four peremptory challenges in the selection of a jury of six persons to try even a capital case. The hon. gentleman suggested that in the trial of important oases in Alberta the de-try indictments in Alberta. There was the provision that the code would not apply in Alberta in so far as its provisions might be inconsistent with the Northwest Territories Act and amendments thereto, as the same fence should have the same number of challenges as would prevail elsewhere. He also complained that the crown had an unlimited number of stand-asides which could be exercised, and that might place an accused person in an unfair position. He was not suggesting that these requests to stand-aside were used unfairly, but they could be used unfairly to make up the kind of jury that those representing an accused person would not like to have sworn.
After the discussion of the estimates in the house, we communicated with the attorney general of Alberta, and he was quite willing to have this provision in the code eliminated, because it seemed to be more embarrassing than otherwise-that is, the provision referring to the Northwest Territories Act as it existed in 1905-provided that the number of jurors to be sworn were not increased beyond six, and provided that the number of peremptory challenges and the number of stand-asides be one-half those that could be exercised when a jury of twelve persons was being selected. I mentioned that to the hon. member for Calgary West and he was quite satisfied that that was a fair provision to make. It gives the defence in Alberta the same proportionate right in choosing a jury of six as that which exists in other provinces where the jury is composed .of twelve persons.
Hon. members will remember that when the matter was discussed while my estimates were being considered, the hon. member for Calgary West said he was not complaining of a six-man jury, but of the fact that the defence did not have the same proportionate rights with respect to a jury in Alberta which they had in the procedure which prevails in the other provinces.
It required quite a lengthy bill to carry out the provision, but I can assure the house that that is all the bill does. It increases the number of jurymen in Saskatchewan from six to twelve as requested by the government of that province. It provides, as existed heretofore, that' six jurymen instead of twelve will try indictments in Alberta, but that in their

selection there shall be one-half the number of challenges and one-half the number of stand-asides which are allowed in the selection of a panel of twelve jurors in the other provinces.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Mr. HACKETT:: That is the only province in which-


William Ross Macdonald: Order. The house is not in committee.


John Thomas Hackett: I was going to ask a question, if I might.


William Ross Macdonald: It is not regular to ask questions until the bill is in committee. However, I am in the hands of the house.


John Thomas Hackett: I shall ask the question later on.
Bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Golding in the chair.
On section 1-Application of act to Alberta.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I confess that I am terribly out of my depth here-


Mr. SINCLAIR (Vancouver North):: That will not discourage you from asking questions.


Stanley Howard Knowles: When this bill passes it leaves us with only one province in the dominion where there is a six-man jury.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: Yes, that is my understanding. My understanding is that all the other provinces will now have twelve jurors sworn to try indictments.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Is the matter brought on by provincial request? Obviously we have jurisdiction because we are doing it here. What puzzles me is the explanatory note which says:
The object of this amendment is to make the provisions of the criminal code applicable uniformly so far as possible, to all the provinces . . .
If there is argument for having a twelve-man jury in eight provinces, why should we not have it right across Canada?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: It is a matter which is, of course, within the jurisdiction of parliament. But it has been the practice to endeavour to meet the requests of the provincial authorities, because they incur the expense of providing courts to try indictments. At one time Saskatchewan as well as Alberta expressed the desire, for the purpose of facilitating the organizing of juries, to reduce the number from twelve to six. After a few years' experience in Saskatchewan, they have come to the conclusion that they want to go back to the

Exchequer Court Act
system of twelve jurymen, but in Alberta they are still satisfied to operate with six. Of course it does not require the summoning of as large a panel to make a choice of a six-man jury possible. There is less expense incurred in summoning a panel for the selection of a jury if you require only six than if you have to summon a panel large enough to be able to pick twelve jurors out of it. So long as the government of Alberta, and the people of Alberta, as represented by, amongst others, the hon. member for Calgary West, say that they prefer it to the more expensive system, the Department of Justice tries to fall in with their views. In everything that is done under the criminal code we try to get the cooperation of the provincial authorities, and we try to extend our cooperation to them for the purpose of facilitating the administration of justice.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The hon. member for
Calgary West is satisfied?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 2-Trial without jury in Alberta, by consent.
Mr. JAENICKE:: Section 2 provides that in an indictable offence an accused may be tried with his own consent by a judge of the superior court. Is that under part 17 or part 18 of the code?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: That is under part 18 of the code, or rather it is -to bring Alberta under the code and conserve this particular provision which resulted from the Northwest Territories Act. The six-man jury and this special provision were the only portions that remained inconsistent with the criminal code. The criminal code can be made to apply generally in Alberta, provided that we have this and the other disposition with respect to the six-man jury.


Frank Eric Jaenicke: The accused would have the right to be tried by a district court judge, as we call them in Alberta and Saskatchewan, under part 17, as well as by a judge of the supreme court or the court of king's bench without the intervention of a jury?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: Yes.


Frank Eric Jaenicke: It would not be called a speedy trial.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: Here he can be tried with his own consent by a judge of a superior court of criminal jurisdiction.


Frank Eric Jaenicke: Under part 18.
63260-235J
Mr. ST. LAURENT: That would be a judge of the supreme court of Alberta, as it is called in that province, I believe, but he could be tried by a judge of the supreme court of Alberta without the intervention of a jury if ' he so elects.
Section 2 agreed to.
Sections 3 to 7 inclusive agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Title agreed to.
Bill reported.


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Minister of Justice) moved the second reading of bill No. 249, to amend the Exchequer Court Act.
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Golding in the chair.
On section 1-Constitution of court.
Donald Methuen Fleming: Will the minister tell the committee when the governor in council proposes to appoint the additional judge provided for under this bill? It is a matter of some importance, I think, in view of the accumulation of cases in that court.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: The provision is being made now; I should not like to set any specific date for the appointment, but it is intended to have the judge in office after what we usually call the long vacation.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Then we can expect that the court will be-
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I would expect to have the judge appointed so that he would be able to take up his duties at the opening of the fall term of the court.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Minister of Justice) moved the second reading of bill No. 250, respecting judges of dominion and provincial courts.
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Golding in the chair.
Privilege-Mr. Green
[Stage Direction]
On section 1-Short title.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: Perhaps I might suggest now that we report progress and ask _ leave to sit again. Certainly we could not get through the bill in the two or three minutes remaining, and it is one of considerable importance. The bill being now before the' committee, perhaps it would suit the convenience of hon. gentlemen to have progress reported.
Progress reported.
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Tuesday, July 23, 1946