1946-08-27

UNITED NATIONS


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Acting Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, as the house has already been informed, the second part of the first session of the general assembly of the united nations has been summoned to open in New York on, September 23. Under the charter, member states are entitled to be represented in the general assembly by five delegates. The assembly will have before it a long and complicated agenda, and this will necessitate the appointment of a fairly large Canadian delegation. I am now able to inform the house of those who have been invited to serve as delegates and as alternate delegates. The names of the advisers will be announced later.
The five delegates will be myself, as chairman of the delegation; the Secretary of State (Mr. Martin), and the minister without portfolio, Senator Robertson. I am happy to say that the leaders of the Progressive Conservative party and of the C.C.F., the hon. members for Neepawa (Mr. Bracken) and Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell), have also accepted the invitation to serve as delegates.
The following gentlemen have been invited to serve as alternate delegates:	The leader
of the opposition in the senate, Hon. J. T. Haig; the hon. member for Ottawa West (Mr. Mellraith), who is the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply; together with, from the public service, Mr. Hume Wrong, the Associate Under-Secretary of State for External Affairs; Mr. M. W. Mackenzie, Deputy Minister of Trade and Commerce, and Mr. H. L. Keenleyside, Canadian Ambassador to Mexico.
The advisers to the delegation will be selected from those in the public service with special competence in the matters that are expected to come before the assembly.

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. K. FRASER (Peterborough West):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance. In view of the fact that right across Canada the housewife cannot buy a cake of soap to-day for her laundry work, what is the government going to do about it? It is a serious problem-


Mr. SPEAKER:: Order. The hon. member knows that his question should be brief and to the point.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Will the parliamentary
assistant answer my question? It is a serious problem.


Mr. R. W. MAYHEW (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, it would require a fairly lengthy statement to answer the hon. gentleman's question, and I think it should be placed on the order paper.


Mr. GRAYDON:: Cleanliness is next to godliness, you know.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: This is a very serious matter, Mr. Speaker, and I think the parliamentary assistant ought to give an answer to-day.


James Horace King: Order. The hon. member knows that the minister, or his parliamentary assistant is not obliged to answer a question.
5422
Broadcasting Corporation


Gordon Graydon: This soap crisis surely is urgent enough to call for a reply.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The whole thing is "no
soap" with the government.


James Horace King: Order. I would ask the members to be quiet and patient. I do not think the session will last very long.



CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION


[Stage Direction]
On the 'orders of the day:
Mr. MAXIME RAYMOND (Beauharnoi-Laprairie (Translation):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Right Hon. Minister of Justice (Mr. St. Laurent). According to press reports, Tim Buck, leader of the Labour Progressive party, and Guy Caron, another well-known communist, are scheduled to talk to-morrow evening over the C.B.C. In view of the findings of the report on espionage activities and the charges levelled against the Labour Progressive party, is it the minister's intention to intervene and prevent this communist propaganda over the C.B.C.?
Right Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Minister of Justice) (Text): The hon. member asks if the Minister of Justice is going to intervene to prevent certain people from speaking over the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. I must say to the hon. member that the Minister of Justice has no right to do that under the statute which governs the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and which was passed by this parliament. There is before parliament at the present time a bill to amend that statute. If parliament deals with that bill it will be the privilege of any hon. member to propose any amendment that he sees fit to that bill to give other controls over the broadcasting facilities than those which are provided in accordance with the statute. Until that is done the Minister of Justice has no greater right to give direction to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation than has the hon. member for Beauharnois-Laprairie (Mr. Raymond).



DISCONTINUANCE OP MILK SUBSIDY-STATEMENT OP MR. KNOWLES-AMENDMENT, MR. NICHOLSON

[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Minister of Justice) moved that the house go into committee of supply.
Mr. STANLEY KNOWLES (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. Speaker, before you leave the chair there is a matter I should like to draw to the attention of the house, and a request I should like to make to the government on behalf of the constituents whom I have the honour to represent. The fact is that the people of Winnipeg North Centre are not alone in their concern about this matter. I refer to announcement which has been made by the government to the effect that the milk subsidy is to be removed, with the result that an increase in the price of milk to consumers may take place very shortly.
It is well-established that one of the most nutritious foods needed by our people is milk.


Mr. REID:: And still the cheapest.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Canada's food rules as approved by the council of nutrition in 1944, contained in a report on nutrition and the production and distribution of food published this year under the authority of the minister of national health and welfare (Mr. Claxton), lists the desirability of a sufficient quantity of milk as the first of these food rules. Accordingly, the possibility of an increase in the price of milk to 14, 14J or 15 cents a quart is a matter of very serious concern to all Canadian people. It is of particular concern to urban dwellers in a constituency such as mine.
The matter is not only of concern to the consumer; it is also of concern to the producer. A person engaged in the production of so vital a commodity as milk certainly should have his return from that effort guaranteed, and he should not be subject to losses such as are bound to result if the price of milk goes up and the purchase of milk is therefore reduced. I was interested in reading in the Toronto Globe and Mail this morning a news dispatch from Ottawa which reads in part as follows: it is under the by-line of Kenneth Cragg:
Ottawa, August 26.-Government decision, announced to parliament last Thursday, not to continue producer subsidies on whole milk after October 1, was taken contrary to the recom-tnemlation of agriculture minister Gardiner.
Mr. Gardiner, it was learned to-day, when he left for Europe, left behind for his colleagues advice for a compromise on subsidy policy, in view of^ labour's wage demands and the government's determination to support price control.
The article goes on to suggest that, although the Minister of Agriculture is not rated as an authority on finance or labour, he had something very strong to say about this matter in relation to prices:

Milk Subsidy
He argued that an increase now in milk price, which affects the consumer faster than an increase in almost any other food product, would be the worst possible timing.
I am not going to take time at the moment to comment on this division in the cabinet, similar to some other divisions which we have noted of late, but I do suggest that in this instance the minister is right in protesting against any change in policy which results in an increase in the price of milk.
I could go on, but the case is so strong that it is not necessary to add to it. I simply rise to register my strongest protest at this move being taken at this time, and I earnestly hope that the government will reconsider its policy and see to it that the price of milk does not go up any further; in fact in my view it should be restored to the ten cent ceiling that we had during the course of the war.


Mr. WILLIAM BRYCE (Selkirk):: Mr. Speaker, having been a milk producer for twenty-five years I feel I should say something on this matter, because the situation which is facing Canada to-day is a- serious one. We have had an increase of four cents in six months. The consumer subsidy of two cents has been removed, which means that the consumer has to pay 12 or 12J cents, according to the city he lives in; and now, if the producer subsidy is taken off, as the government intends to do on October 1, the man who is getting his milk for ten cents will have to pay 14J or 15 cents. I suggested in the house some considerable time ago that if the government had done this sort of thing to half the extent, that is if it had taken one cent off, it would have been better. We all know that these subsidies have to come off, and we have to get back to a pre-war basis. But on the one hand the government refuses to give increased wages to the man who is going to purchase the milk, and on the other hand the cost of producing milk is going up by leaps and bounds.


Thomas Reid: What about the family allowances?


William Scottie Bryce: My hon. friend will make his speech after I have done, and I shall be delighted to listen to him.


Thomas Reid: Will you? Thanks.


William Scottie Bryce: In answer to the hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Reid) I might tell him that we had family allowances when we were getting these subsidies.


Thomas Reid: Only for one year.


William Scottie Bryce: Until such time as we get back to normal conditions these things will have to be looked after, and if they are not looked after by the government, who is going to look after them?
To-day the cost of producing milk is going up. People who have followed that occupation all their lives just cannot make ends meet, because men are getting wages on the farms such as they never got before. Those increased wages have to be paid, because men can get fine jobs in industry to-day, where they do not have to work fourteen hours a day, as they do on the farm, so the farmer has to pay them high wages to get them to produce milk.
There is a scarcity of fodder in the western provinces. That may seem unbelievable, but it is true. I have been out there and have seen the condition myself. If the fifty-five cents producer subsidy is taken off, the price of milk will rise to 14*1 cents. I think the government acted very unfairly in this matter. The wartime prices and trade board set the price of milk during the war, and now that the war is over and we are getting back to normal they throw the whole thing into the lap of the provincial milk boards. I asked the Minister of Agriculture a question about this, and he told me that they wanted it that way. I do not know whether it is so, but certainly the situation is a serious one and the government must face it. They have either to reinstate a part of these subsidies or make some other arrangement. As I have said before, milk is not only a drink; it is also a food, and if we want to build a healthy Canada we must see to' it that the people get milk. In the Winnipeg area there are 1,000 shippers sending in milk now, whereas before the war there were only 600. The reason is that the big fellows are going out of business and it is only the man who is producing two or three cans of milk a day, who is able to exploit his children by getting them to milk the cows before they go to school and when they come home in the evening, who is producing milk. We shall never have a healthy situation so long as the milk producers are not enabled to stand on their feet.
I do not wish to take up a lot of time but I appeal to the member of the government, whoever it is that represents the Minister of Agriculture, and also to the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance, to do something about this and do it right away because, as I say, the situation is serious.


Mr. R. R. KNIGHT (Saskatoon City):: I am prompted to say a word or two on this subject by an editorial which appeared in my local
Milk Subsidy

newspaper a couple of days ago, recapitulating the demands of the people of my particular city for the continuance of the milk subsidies. 1 do not think it is necessary for me to say, nor does anyone else need to say, that milk is a highly nutritious food, and it is important that there should be an adequate supply of it, particularly at this time when our children are returning to school. The ration of this commodity should not be reduced.
Some time ago I appealed through the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance, and through him to the wartime prices and trade board, for a permit for a certain organization in my home town of Saskatoon. It is a newly organized cooperative store which has been in operation seven or eight months and in that time it has accumulated to itself seven or eight hundred families as customers. I appealed to the minister to try to get a quota of canned milk for that cooperative store. I do not think that the distribution of .quotas for canned milk in Saskatoon is at the moment equitable, because this particular *cooperative canno-t get a tin of canned milk. I know there are reasons for that, but in the light, of what has happened now, and in view *of the fact that the subsidy is to be withdrawn, I would ask the minister if he thinks it is right that these people, who cannot procure canned milk, are also to be denied a supply of fresh milk because of the increased price in the commodity itself.


Mr. T. J. BENTLEY (Swift Current):: I
know that everyone wants to go home, but I must tell the house that every member here is precisely in my position-elected to do a certain job for his constituents and for the people of Canada. I will not discuss the question of a milk subsidy either as a producer of milk, because I am not one, or as a large consumer, since my family is grown up; but I will speak from information given me by a very important Canadian organization, the local council of women, the members of which make a particular job of studying the needs of less fortunate people in their communities. They are earnest, sincere citizens. I will not take time to put on the record a number of letters I have received from various councils of this organization but I would say that they are earnestly, desperately and sincerely concerned over the welfare of the children of the larger and less fortunate families in the areas from which they write me.
The government would be well advised to reconsider the whole matter and to continue the subsidies until the transition from wartime and semi-inflation or complete inflation, or
IMr. Knight.]
whatever it is we have at the present time, is completed and things are properly organized. There are many children who will not have their full ration of milk this winter if the subsidy is taken off now. I am not trying to be critical. I know the trouble the government is having. I know the members of the government are doing the best they can in the light of the information they have and from their view of the situation, but I do believe they would do well to give the matter further consideration and continue the subsidies until such time as plentiful supplies of milk are on the market. If they do not, I know something of the producer and of milk production, and I know, as the hon. member for Selkirk says, that a great many people now in the business of producing milk will gradually get rid of their dairy herds, or some of them, reduce them to the point where they can handle the business with family labour. If they have to buy a lot of feed from outside, and hire outside labour, undoubtedly they will feel that the game is not worth all the work and expense and risk involved, and they will reduce their herds to the point where the risk is lowest and where they can handle the business with available labour in the family. In that event supplies of milk will be less than they are at the present time.


Mr. J. S. SINNOTT (Springfield):: I concur entirely in what the other speakers have said in this regard. Three weeks or a month ago I wrote to the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Agriculture asking them to continue the subsidies. I am like these other gentlemen in that I was brought up on a farm and I know what the milk producers have to go through in producing milk. At the present time, with the clamour for high, wages, it is impossible for the farmers to produce milk more cheaply than they are doing it now. Not only is the welfare of our children at stake; the welfare of the future population of Canada is involved1 if we do not provide the people now with the nutrition they need. I would therefore urge the government to reconsider their decision, if they have decided not to continue the subsidy because this is no time to have our children go without this valuable food.
There are very few members of this house, I would say there are no more than forty, who know what a farmer has to go through in order to produce milk, and if the majority of hon. members apart from those forty were on farms trying to produce milk themselves they would understand the difficulties of the dairy farmer. Again I urge the government to reconsider the decision.

Milk Subsidy


Robert Wellington Mayhew: I will not attempt to answer the various arguments that have been advanced. In a matter of a day or two the estimates of the wartime prices and trade board will be up for discussion and there will be no reason why this question could not be discussed at that time, when I can make necessary answers. In the meantime I will point out that the handling of milk has been turned back to the milk boards of the provinces, and whether they want an increase or not is something that is up to them.


Mr. A. M. NICHOLSON (Mackenzie):: I wish to congratulate the hon. member for Springfield (Mr. Sinnott) on the contribution which he has made to this important discussion. The views which he has expressed represent the opinions of hon. members in all sections of the house. The statement made by the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Mayhew) is not very helpful. If we are to continue the wartime prices and trade board it is important that subsidies in connection with the production of milk be maintained. If something is not done in the next six months there will be an increase in that six months period of from ten to fifteen cents a quart in some parts of Canada. It is obvious that with the general increase in the cost of living, old age pensioners and people in the lower income brackets will find it impossible to obtain a sufficient quantity of milk at the high prices.
There has been little criticism of the subsidy policy carried out by' the government during the war. This is no field in which the wartime prices and trade board should retreat and throw the matter back on the lap of the provincial authorities. Therefore I move, seconded by the hon. member for Yorkton:
That all the words after the word "that'' to the end of the question be left out and the following substituted therefor:
"This house desires to record its opinion that consideration should be given to the continuance of the milk subsidy so as to ensure adequate return to milk producers and make possible the consumption of milk for the nutrition of the Canadian people without any further increase in the price thereof to the consumers."
I should like to draw Your Honour's attention to the decisions of former Speakers as recorded in Beauehesne's Parliamentary Rules and Forms at page 529. In 1912 the Hon. James S. Sproule ruled that:
Private members may introduce resolutions which do not directly involve the expenditure of public money but simply express an abstract opinion on a matter which may necessitate a future grant.
Then in a relative paragraph on the next page we find the following:
As this is a question not always understood, it may be explained that such resolutions, being framed in general terms, do not bind the house to future legislation on the subject, and are merely intended to point out to the government the importance and necessity of such expenditure.


Mr. WILLIAM IRVINE (Cariboo):: This milk question is of great interest to the house and Canada. The government could very well shorten the discussion by themselves giving us a little milk in the form of a word as to what their intentions are. The government have been particularly silent on the question. The people of the country who may have to suffer because of the lack of subsidy would not mind doing so if there was good reason for it. If the government have a good reason for doing this, let them say so now and we should all be ready' to listen to reason.
That is all I wish to say. There is no use labouring the point, but we ought to have some real reply from the government as to why they still persist in the policy of withdrawing subsidies.


Mr. G. A. CRUICKSHANK (Fraser Valley):: I do not want to take up much time; I want to say something but I still want to go home. Therefore I say that I concur in the remarks which have been made so far.
Mr. SOLON E. LOW (Peace River): I favour the amendment proposed by the hon. member for Mackenzie (Mr. Nicholson). Having been a dairyman myself I know something of the difficulties of dairymen; I know something about the cost of production and the difficulties which people have in obtaining sufficient milk for the proper nutrition of their families. It is significant to note that prior to the introduction of the federal subsidies on milk, distribution in Ontario never did reach more than about 600,000 quarts a diay. After the introduction of dominion subsidies, in Ontario the distribution of milk reached more than, a million quarts a day, which is ample evidence that the subsidy resulted in bringing up the nutritional standards of the people, particularly of this province. I should say that was the general pattern of the effect in other provinces. I am in favour of the amendment, and would urge the government most strongly to continue the subsidy on milk.


Mr. J. H. BLACKMORE (Lethbridge):: The moment that this resolution was put before the house I fancy that what went through the minds of the members of the government was, we cannot find money; we cannot afford
Milk Subsidy

this thing. Either the government has meant what it has been saying during the last few years about the new order, or it has not. Here is a right good chance for the government to show whether or not it was deliberately deceiving the people, or whether it really meant what it said.
There is only one way in which the price of goods can be kept from rising, and that is by means of subsidy. At the present time we are in the midst of grave industrial unrest. Everyone knows that one of the major causes of that unrest is a rise in the price of living. Here is another measure proposed by the government which will increase the cost of living. How can we possibly conceive that we shall do away with the industrial unrest in the country when we adopt the very measures which are calculated to bring on industrial unrest?
The government will say, we cannot find the money for a milk subsidy. The government must find the money. The government will say, we cannot tax the people any more. They do not need to tax the people any more. The government will say, we do not want to go into debt any further. They do not need to go into debt any further. I simply say that if the government will take a realistic attitude toward the whole situation of the Canadian economy it will discover how it can keep down the cost of living without increasing taxation and debt. May I warn the government that if it does not adopt a streamlined modem method of dealing with the economic situation in Canada, it is leading the country into disaster, and leading it fast.
I heartily support the amendment made by the hon. member for Mackenzie (Mr. Nicholson). I would say a good deal more if the time were appropriate.


Mr. G. H. CASTLEDEN (Yorkton):: In supporting the motion I wish to say that the government is ill-advised to take the subsidy off milk, particularly in view of the support which the Canadian people have given to the whole policy of price stabilization. The milk producers of Canada can present facts and figures to prove that even with the fifty-five cent subsidy on a hundred pounds of milk they cannot make money because they are not meeting their cost of production. In fact a demand will be made on the government for an increase in the subsidy. To take it off will place the producers in such a position that milk production will fall off tremendously. The scarcity of milk will increase the price to the consumer. The people in the cities who buy
fMr. Blackmore]
milk will find that the increase of two cents in the price, which in some places will bring it up to fifteen cents a quart, will result in the workers taking the view: What is the use of trying to help the government in maintaining stabilization? What chance is there for us to prevent an increase in the cost of living and the spiral of inflation? The people who have to buy milk for their children, the people who are living on fixed incomes, will find this a terrific hardship, and it will have a detrimental effect upon the economy of Canada and the welfare of the people.


Mr. ANGUS MacINNIS (Vancouver East):: Mr. Speaker, I would just say a word to urge the government to accept this motion, because the present conditions affecting the production and distribution of milk are of vital importance to the people of Canada. Statements have been made in the press and elsewhere to the effect that if the price of milk goes up, people will not be consuming the quantity of milk they have been consuming during the last five or six years. This will mean that milk production on the farm will be curtailed and less work will be available in rural areas. People who ordinarily work on the farm will flock to the cities, creating a situation such as we had during the depression.
The idea of subsidies is a reasonable one. It is a method of using the taxing power of the country to distribute income, thus increasing production and equalizing the opportunities for consumption. I would urge the government to accept this motion and give consideration to the matter involved.


Mr. E. G. HANSELL (Macleod):: Mr. Speaker, I have just one word to say-I am in favour of this motion. As it comes from the opposition, I think it is our duty to demand results from the government. Although our duty may end with demanding results, it is sometimes wise to make suggestions as to how results can be achieved. I am not going to offer any suggestions, because they have been made time and time again from this corner of the house. The hon. member for Lethbridge (Mr. Blackmore) has said some mighty things in a few words. If the government cannot do it, if they find that their policy is such that they cannot possibly do it, then the country should know.
I suggest to the government that here is one opportunity of their taking the proposals which have been made over a number of years by the Social Credit group and demonstrating whether or not they are sound. The government do not have to use our proposals to run the economy of the country; all I am suggesting is that in connection with this one

Milk Subsidy
thing, the matter of milk subsidies, they take the proposals we have made over the years. Surely that is not going to upset the whole economy of the country; it is dealing with just one commodity. They should try it, if only as an experiment to see if it will not work. They are challenged to do it; we are demanding results and we suggest that this is the way to do it. I am in favour of the amendment.


Mr. H. W. HERRIDGE (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, I rise to express my support of this amendment by simply saying this. Surely a government which can vote over $21,000,000 for munitions and arms this year can find a few millions for milk.


Mr. GILLIS:: Tell them about the judges'
salaries.
Right Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Acting Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the feeling of a number of hon. members in regard to this matter, but I am not sure that the mover of the motion (Mr. Nicholson) wishes to do what the motion implies. The acceptance of this motion would prevent the house from going into supply, and I do not think that that is what the hon. member has in mind. I do not think anyone in the house wishes to take that attitude at this moment. I believe what the hon. member wishes to get is an expression of opinion from this house as to the carrying out of a policy which was announced last May. The motion asks that the house record its opinion as to whether consideration should be given to the continuance of the milk subsidy. Whether or not the motion passes, consideration certainly would be given to the continuance of the policy, because consideration is given from day to day to the economy of the nation.
At the present time there are factors in the national economy which were not present last May and which were not present a couple of weeks ago. A serious effort was being made to reconvert from a wartime to a peacetime economy, and it was felt that some day this policy of maintaining prices by government subsidies would have to be abandoned. Last spring it was felt that with respect to the milk subsidy the proper time to do it, in a manner that would1 not be charged as unfair or almost dishonest to the producer was not to cease paying the subsidy at the time milk was most plentiful. It would not have been fair to take off the subsidy at the beginning of a period when the producers were going to have large quantities of milk to which the subsidy would apply. It was thought proper to make an announcement at that time that the consumer subsidy would be removed at once and that the producer subsidy would be removed at the end of the pasture season.
Up to a relatively short time ago the reconversion of the Canadian economy was proceeding in a manner which was looked upon as being fairly satisfactory, but for some reason or other in recent weeks there has been what appears to be a change in the views of a substantial portion of the Canadian people. I refer to certain sections of organized labour. I do not think anyone will dispute the assertion that the only way to maintain our economy on a sound basis is by abundant production. Some sections of organized labour seem to have felt that the way for them to get what they believe they are entitled to is to stop production and hold up the economy of the nation until such time as they can make everybody agree that their share should be such and so. I think that is a most unfortunate development. I think it is a development not only which is harmful to the rest of the Canadian people but which constitutes a shortsighted policy for those sections of organized labour to follow. It has created a difficult position; it has put great pressure upon the price ceilings, and has made it much more difficult to proceed toward a stabilized peacetime economy. These facts are facts which are considered almost every twenty-four hours every day by the government, and would1 be considered whatever was the government in power. Those who become ministers of the crown are at least of average intelligence, average honesty and average Canadian patriotism. Whatever the label of the party to which they belong, I am convinced that when times get tough they do their best to serve their country honestly and efficiently. And that requires them to do what this motion asks to have done.
I do not think it requires a vote in the House of Commons to make us realize that not only the house but the country expects us to give consideration constantly to all these measures. That being so, and it being the fact that if the motion carries in this way we would not go into supply at this time, I think the motion might without harm be withdrawn. If it is not withdrawn I think it should be modified in such a way as to state that the house does not object to going into supply, but in doing so wishes to express a certain opinion about this subsidy.


Mr. COLDWELL:: Will the minister as
leader of the government give the assurance that this matter will be considered anew, not
Milk Subsidy

as a matter of day-to-day routine? Will he assure us that it will be considered specially and anew?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I can give the house the assurance that before October 1 which, I understand, is the date which was announced on May 16,, new consideration will be given to what may appear to be in the best interests of the Canadian public generally with respect to this milk subsidy. It cannot be paid without placing a burden on the general body of the population; and consideration will be given as to whether under present conditions it appears desirable to promote the speediest possible return to normal conditions to continue for a time the payment of that subsidy.


John Horne Blackmore: Will the minister give the house the undertaking that, while careful consideration is being given anew to this whole question as to the advisibility of continuing the milk subsidy, there will be brought to the attention of the cabinet these three questions:
1.	Is it proposed that we shall discontinue this milk subsidy because a subsidy in itself is unsound?
2.	Is it proposed that we shall discontinue this milk subsidy because we cannot afford it- that is, because we cannot find the money?
3.	Is it proposed that we shall discontinue this milk subsidy because the Canadian economy cannot produce enough goods to enable that Canadian economy to provide Canadian milk producers with what they ought to have?


James Horace King: Order.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I cannot give any undertaking whatsoever that the government will seriously consider adopting the policies of social credit. I will give an undertaking that the matter will be considered, but no undertaking as to what will be the mental processes of those engaged in that consideration.


John Horne Blackmore: Will the government consider the question from the point of view of using plain, common horse sense?
Mr. ST. LAURENT:	Under those conditions, and because I believe there is an honest desire on the part of all hon. members to proceed with supply, would it not be possible to have this motion withdrawn, and for hon. members to trust to the impression they have made upon the house, the country and the government as a result of what has been said this morning? rMr. Coldwell.]


William Scottie Bryce: I should like to draw the attention of the minister-


James Horace King: The hon. member has spoken once.
Mr. IiRYINE: He is speaking to the amendment.


William Scottie Bryce: I am now speaking to the amendment; I spoke to the motion before.


James Horace King: Then I give the floor to the leader of the opposition.


Mr. JOHN BRACKEN (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, the motion before the house is to go into committee of supply. The amendment, which I believe is a proper one, is that consideration be given to the continuance of the milk subsidy, which the government has announced it is withdrawing.
What is the position at the present time? This amendment is in order, or it is not. I suggest respectfully that however much the government may dislike it, it is in order. Being in order it must be dealt with and a vote taken, or withdrawn.
What are the merits of the proposal? In the early days of the war the government came along and said, "We are going to take certain steps to control our economy." Among other things the government said, "We are going to pay a subsidy of two cents on the cost to consumers of their milk, and to producers 55 cents per 100 pounds." When -the first of these proposals was made, the danger we are facing to-day was pointed out by the producers of Canada. The impression it left with Canadian consumers was that they were getting milk for ten cents a quart or thereabouts. As a matter of fact is was costing twelve cents, the extra two cents being paid by the government and charged back to the taxpayers as a whole. But the impression was left with the consumers that they were getting cheap milk.
Now with these subsidies withdrawn there is the impression going around that the cost of milk is going up, that the farmers are thereby deriving some benefit, and the consumers having to pay more. Unfortunately that situation has arisen at the very time when farmers' costs are going up, and when the country finds itself embroiled in strikes and industrial unrest of one kind or another.
This question resolves itself down to this: What is the government's policy? If the government says now that it is going to remove these subsidies. I do not see how hon. members who have moved this amendment can withdraw it. What is the price of con-

Milk Subsidy
tinuing with the amendment, in the event of its being carried? In the first instance we may be delayed for forty-eight hours before we can go into supply again. That of course is only a detail, on a question that merits consideration. With all respect I suggest that the house can get over this impasse and continue its work-if the government is disposed to do it-if the government will undertake to say within the next short period of time whether it intends to persist in withdrawing these subsidies. If it is, there is nothing that can prevent the opposition from taking the stand it is taking in pressing for a vote.
The question is very simple. It is just this. Is the government going to say now, after four or five years of these subsidies, that it is going to make consumers pay the whole cost of the milk, or is it going to continue to take out of the consolidated revenue fund several million dollars to pay two cents on the cost of each quart of milk. I do not remember just what the subsidies to the dairy industry amounted to, but speaking wholly from memory I think they were around $20,000,000. There is not a man in this country but recognizes- that milk production to-day costs more now than it did in the past. And yet these subsidies to the producer and to the consumer are being removed, with the result that the consumer will have to pay more and the producer who needs more will get less.
The government, having a majority in this house and being the government, has the opportunity now of saying whether it will continue its policy or whether it will not. At the moment I am not saying which is right; I am not arguing the merits of the policy at the moment, but I must say that this difficult situation, the government has invited by its policies.
There seems to be a desire to avoid a vote, but I do not see any way of doing it, other than for the government to say: We have heard these representations, and we will consider them and we will let the house know in a short time whether there is to be any change in our policy. If the government is not disposed to say that I do not see how the opposition can agree to withdrawing the amendment.


Clarence Gillis: Mr. Speaker, I had not intended to take part in this discussion, and would not be doing so were it not for the fact that the Acting Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) in a few well chosen words attempted to unload the present unrest in our whole Canadian economy on one section of society, the 63260-342
industrial workers, who by being on strike and so forth, were responsible, according to the minister, for everything untoward that was happening.
I think this amendment should be voted on. The mere promise of the government to consider this matter should not be good enough. I think most of the members of this house have got in the habit of thinking in terms of getting home. We are dragging along to the end of the session, but what it is important for us in this house to remember is that things at home are not so good, and the most serious business in front of the members of the House of Commons now is to consider resetting the economy of this country, no matter how long we may have to sit here. I think earnest and serious consideration should be given to that.


John Horne Blackmore: Even if it takes Social Credit to do it.


Clarence Gillis: That is right. The government is very heavily committed to the principle of subsidies now. I would point out to the Acting Prime Minister that the government removed the fifty cents duty on the imports of coal. That was a subsidy to that industry. Then there is a seventy-five cents drawback on all coal imported for metallurgical purposes. That is a subsidy to that industry, which is still being paid. The Minister of Reconstruction and Supply (Mr. Howe) pointed out last night that the government had spent around $8,000,000 in coal production subsidies in the maritimes. That is a very heavy subsidy.
The hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Reid) suggested that the family allowance was paid to offset the increase in the price of milk. But if you are paying the family allowance based on living standards as they were at the time it was introduced in order to enable the children to have clothes and shoes so that they may go to school, clothes and shoes which they did not have in the 1930's, you are taking it back from them when you allow increased prices on the essentials which the children need. If that be so, the gesture on the part of the government in instituting the family allowance will require considerable examination as to the motives behind it. I would not be so harsh as to suggest that it was done on the eve of an election because it was a popular thing and might get votes. But I think it should be followed through. If there is one thing in this country that should be subsidized it is milk, because that is something which the children of this country sadly lacked until the outbreak of the war.

Milk Subsidy

I think the point made by the hon. member for Lethbridge (Mr. Blackmore) was a very important one. He said that the production of milk in Ontario had doubled under the subsidy. I presume that is true of every province.
I think the house should be asked to vote on this amendment, even if it means that we may not go into supply for twenty-four or forty-eight hours. I think that would be time well spent. This business of just getting a promise is not good enough.
I agree with those that say there should be no curtailment of production in this country. We should be producing to our maximum in every line to-day, because Canada's production is required not only by this country but all over the world.
I would like to leave this thought with the Acting Prime Minister. The workers of this country are not asking for something that is unreasonable. The basic reason for industrial unrest in Canada to-day is that the price ceilings in this country were not maintained and consequently the standard of living of the workers was reduced. This was proven to me pretty conclusively by facts and figures and evidence presented from both sides in the industrial relations committee. It was established that if the increase of fifteen cents an hour asked for was granted it would merely maintain the standards of living for the workers that were established during the war.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: If the hon. member will permit a question, does he not take into account in that calculation the desire to have the same pay for a much smaller number of working hours?


Clarence Gillis: That is a small factor, but it is a factor. Reducing the hours of work from 48 to 44-
Mr. ST. LAURENT: To 40 and to 37J, as I saw suggested in a dispatch last night.


Clarence Gillis: There was no evidence to that effect in the industrial relations committee. I also saw that dispatch, but I do not go to the Canadian Press as a source of accurate and definite information. I am talking of a committee set up by this house which sat for five weeks. You can read your Tory press and you will find all kinds of criticism of your government. I read the other press too and get the other side. I like to read in between and get the facts. The facts were given to the committee on industrial relations, and I think I am safe in saying that if the price line had been held, you would not have the industrial unrest you have right across the country to-day.
[Mr. Gillis.l
I have a clipping here from the Ottawa Journal of August 26 last. It is a Canadian Press dispatch and reads:
Dividend payments by Canadian corporations in August were the highest for any corresponding month in years, the total of $11,416,528, as reported to J. R. Timmins & Company, comparing with $9,605,112 for August, 1945, and $9,072,169 for August, 1944.
Cumulative total for the first eight months of the current year of $183,460,569, compared with $170,188,104 for corresponding months of the previous year, and $165,122,527 for similar period of 1944.
All the industrial workers of Canada are asking for at this time is, first, to maintain the standards established during the war, and, second, to get a share of the wealth they produce, as indicated by that statement in the Ottawa Journal, and that is not propaganda.
I suggest that some common sense should be applied in the present situation. I do not think we are going to fight our way out of this thing. The time has come when we must think our way out; and as the government is heavily committed in the matter of subsidies-I agree that it is the proper way of redistributing the income of this country, and taxing those who are able to pay in order to do that-the maintenance of this production bonus on milk is essential at this time. You are not going to cure industrial unrest by continuing subsidies to every large corporation in order that it may make profits, while you take it off a very essential commodity, and add to the cost of living, and create more arguments for increases of wages.
I seriously suggest to hon. members that, instead of passing the buck and thinking in terms of getting home, of our own selfish pleasures and interests, we make up our minds to analyse these problems now in the light of their seriousness, and that we register an opinion, as every member should register it, by standing up and being counted, as Mr. Trestrail, the agent of the corporations in this country, suggested to the Canadian people on the eve of the last election. This is where we should show our colours.
We of this group believe that this subsidy should be maintained, and we also believe that every member of this house should record his vote as to whether he believes this or not. This is merely asking for a recorded opinion as to whether we believe in the continuance of these subsidies. I believe we should do it.


William Scottie Bryce: There is just one point to which I wish to direct the attention of the Acting Prime Minister. He pointed out to the house that people are striking and stopping work when production is needed. There are

Milk Subsidy
rumblings in the west indicating that farmers are going to stop producing, and if you take this amendment into account and do something about it you may save that situation.


Mr. VICTOR QUELCH (Acadia):: I realize how very difficult it is to maintain production of milk at a high level, and at the same time how essential it is that that production shall be maintained. One reason why it is difficult to maintain a high level of production of milk is that milking cows is one of the most unpopular jobs on the farm. When you hire labour, invariably the man will ask you whether he has to milk cows. If you tell him yes, he will not work for you; with the result that right across Canada to-day in many cases the farmer and his family have to milk cows because the farm hand refuses to do it. Therefore you have a decreased production of milk.


John Horne Blackmore: And the farmer has to pay income tax on it.


Victor Quelch: You recall that when Doctor Thompson of McGill spoke before the reconstruction committee he stated that in order to maintain a liberal diet in this country it would be necessary to double our production of milk on the basis of the 1939 figures. The policy of subsidies is sound. We did not hesitate to vote hundreds of millions of dollars for subsidies during the war. We have to cut costs in the future. We have to make it possible for people to buy at lower levels in order to cut those costs. The logical way to do it is by subsidizing. The only question involved is that of the financial cost. We did not hesitate to meet that cost during the war. I am not going to discuss how the government may meet it. The government is familiar with the way in which this group would do it. But that is their responsibility; and if they believe in the financial system they are using, it is time they made that financial system work or adopted another one. We are not interested in that question.
Surely if it was necessary to use subsidies to win the war, and if subsidies are necessary to win the peace, then they should be used. Do not forget that if we make the same mistake we did after the last war and lose this peace, we are creating conditions which will make for another war. One of the first essentials of winning the peace is to build up the health of the population, and to build up the health of the population you must have a high level of production of milk.
The Minister of Justice (Mr. St. Laurent) has stated that he thought all that was necessary was for the members of this house to express an opinion on this matter. But the 63260-342i
minister knows very well that time and again during this session this house has in no uncertain way expressed an opinion without a vote; and what have the government done? Absolutely disregarded that opinion. I have in mind especially the question of old age pensions. Hon. members have shown clearly time and again that they believe old age pensions should be at a higher level than they are to-day. Did the government act? They have callously disregarded the old people. If we just express an opinion on the question of milk we shall get about as much consideration as we did on the question of old age pensions.


Right Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Reconstruction and Supply):: We have had considerable discussion on this motion. It seems to me that the Acting Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) has given exactly the undertaking which is being asked for in the amendment, and that he has given it as forcibly and sincerely as could possibly be obtained by a vote of the house. Nevertheless the government has no objection to an expression of opinion from the members of the house. I suggest that the vote should be a free expression regardless of party. The various members represent various economies in this country, and an expression of this kind should be the expression of the individual opinion of every hon. member.
The difficulty of obtaining the expression arises from the form of the amendment, which in itself denies the right of the house to move into committee of supply at this time. However, Mr. Speaker, I would call your attention to article 489 of Beauchesne, which reads as follows:
When an amendment has been adopted to the motion for the house to go into committee of supply or of ways and means, it may be forthwith moved that the house resolve itself into such committee immediately or on a future day.
Therefore I should like to serve notice that if this vote carries the government will immediately move that the house go into committee of supply this day. I believe that that procedure is consistent with the rules, and if there can be general agreement on that point the work of the house can be facilitated and the objective of hon. members attained.
I ask hon. members to consider the fact that the question at issue is not quite as simple as has been suggested during this discussion. We have been through a war. We have been through a period when it was necessary at all costs to conserve the economy of the country in a manner which would permit the greatest war effort of the people of Canada. Unusual steps were taken in that period. I have heard complaints that the
Milk Subsidy

government is attempting to put the Canadian people in a straitjacket; to order their daily-lives in a manner described, as dictatorial. Well, the method of subsidy is a part of that regimentation of the people, and it is a part which in my opinion should not become usual practice in our normal economy. Hon. members can make an excellent case for certain subsidies, and perhaps other sections of the country can make an excellent case for certain other subsidies; perhaps both can make a case for and against the same subsidy. But I suggest that those who have publicly demanded that the government remove wartime restrictions and wartime restraints on the living of the people should consider carefully before they cast their vote on this issue, since I consider a vote for the amendment to be an expression of opinion on a matter of policy which goes far beyond the subsidy on milk. It will be in effect an expression of the opinion of members of this House of Commons that the subsidy policy of the government should be continued indefinitely. I think it should be regarded in that light. Personally, as a member of the government, I should1 be glad to get an expression from the individual members of the house of their view of the policy of continuing indefinitely the principle of subsidies, which to-day is costing this country something over $100,000,000 per annum.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I want to commend the Minister of Reconstruction for the suggestion which he has made, which has the effect of providing for a free vote of the members of the house. One other point I wish to make in reply to the Minister of Justice in respect of the appeal he made for the withdrawal of the motion, which appeal is not acceptable to us. I would point out that in this house on August 14 we had a fairly lengthy discussion of the question of milk. It ended with the assurance being given to the house by the Minister of Agriculture that the matter was still under consideration and he used these definite words at page 4799:
These questions are being discussed this week and will be determined, I assume, in sufficient time to make the announcement long enough before the first of October to acquaint the people with what that situation is.
That was on August 14 of this year when the assurance was given that the matter was still under consideration and would be discussed further. Eight days later, on August 22, we were given the result of that consideration. The parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance answered a question which had

been asked the previous day by the hon. member for Churchill, and stated clearly that the policy announced by the Minister of Agriculture on May 16 was to be carried out, and then appears this significant question, which was asked by the member for Haldimand (Mr. Senn):
I understood the Minister of Agriculture to tell the house the other day-[DOT]
That is a reference back to August 14.
*-that the matter was under advisement, and that a decision had not been reached. Does the parliamentary assistant mean, then, that a decision has been reached, and that there will be no further subsidy on milk?
Hon. Douglas Abbott (Acting Minister of Finance):	I will answer that question. The
answer is, yes.
We feel therefore that, having had one experience of further consideration being given the matter, and the result of that further consideration being an answer very definitely that there will be no further subsidies on milk, we have no alternative but to ask the house to express itself in the one clear way it can, by voting on the amendment now before the chair.


Mr. J. M. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Ontario):: I may be a particularly stupid man but I find it extremely difficult to know what I am voting on. The Minister of Reconstruction says that what we are voting on is the principle of control.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The principle of subsidies.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: No. He said it was the whole principle of whether we believed in controls or not. I believe, as I said before, that controls should be removed as fast as possible. On the other hand, if this resolution concerns wholly the question of the production of milk, then that is a very different matter. But if that is the matter, then it seems to me that one is entitled to know a little more about it.


Clarence Decatur Howe: How can you administer subsidies without controls?


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I made myself clear, I believe. I realize that you cannot administer subsidies without controls. I am not quarrelling with the statement the minister made, but it seems to me that what we are voting on is very complicated.
I wish to say a word with reference to what the Minister of Justice (Mr. St. Laurent) said. He said, and I believe he was right, that in the last few weeks a situation has occurred which might very well cause the government to reach a different conclusion from that which it reached some months ago. I understood what

Milk Subsidy
he meant by that, but I am still, frankly, in a great difficulty. Am I voting-and I am referring to the resolution-merely to express the view that the government should give further consideration to the continuance of the milk subsidy? Is that all I am voting for? And when that vote is carried does it mean that the government merely has an expression of this house that this house wants it to give consideration to the milk subsidy, which the Minister of Justice has said it certainly will do? Is that all that this resolution means? I want to know. I may be stupid iii asking the question but I want to know. Does it merely mean that if we pass this resolution this house desires to record its opinion that consideration should be given? And does that mean given by the government, or does it mean that we go on now and then consider it further ourselves and reach a conclusion on it ourselves? Which does it .mean? Can you answer me, Mr. Speaker?


Major James William Coldwell: The rules of the house do not provide that a private member may give to the government a' definite instruction which involves an expenditure of money, and consequently the only way in which, under the rules, a resolution could be moved is in the form of this resolution. We take it that if this resolution is passed it will mean that the house, the sovereign body, desires the government to consider favourably-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No.


Major James William Coldwell: The hon. member for Muskoka-Ontario was right when he asked what was meant by the resolution, and I am trying to tell you what is really meant by the group that moved the amendment. The only way in which we can do it-


Mr. CASSELMAN:: You got-yourself into trouble.


Major James William Coldwell: I say, the only way in which we can do it is to ask for consideration of it. We cannot give the government an instruction, but we hope that the government will consider favourably the matter contained in the resolution.


John Bracken: Which is the matter of the milk subsidy.


Major James William Coldwell: Which is the matter of the milk subsidy only.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I am grateful to the hon. member for explaining what I am voting on. It is an
expression of opinion that the government wilt give consideration to the continuance of the-milk subsidy.


Clarence Decatur Howe: An excellent philosophy as an excuse for speaking one way on the hustings and voting another way in the house.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I am not old enough in politics to have learned how to do that and I hope I shall never learn.


Thomas Reid: The motion is very clear and, as far as I am concerned, when I vote I vote on the wording of the motion, with no strings attached or commitments into the future regarding price ceilings.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER:: Is the house ready for the question?


John Bracken: Before you put the question, sir, may I ask one thing. In the past on some of these votes pairs have been recognized. In view of the statement of the hon. Minister of Reconstruction and Supply (Mr. Howe) that this would be regarded as .a free vote, I wonder if we could have some understanding with respect to whether pairs should or should not be respected.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I think under the conditions stated by the Minister of Reconstruction no hon. member should feel bound by any pairing arrangement that would otherwise bind him.


John Bracken: If it is really a free vote, pairs do not need to be respected.


John Bracken: Under the circumstances I am glad to follow the lead of the Minister of Justice.


John Horne Blackmore: Mr. Speaker, before the motion passes I wish to make one or two comments arising from the attitude manifested by the Minister of Justice with regard to social credit.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: On a point of order, I think it is a rule of this house that it is not permitted to refer to a previous debate during the same session.


John Horne Blackmore: I withdraw the
remarks I made about the previous debate, and will proceed now to say what I have to say.
It is an exceedingly dangerous matter for any men charged with responsibility in these dangerous times to lay down hard and specific rules as to what they will or will not do. All that hon. members in the government know is that they face a time of great uncertainty and great danger. Their task is to guide this nation through that great danger, and to come out successfully on the other side.


James Horace King: Order. The house has decided on the amendment, and therefore has decided on the point mentioned by the hon. member. I would therefore tell him that he is out of order.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and the house went into committee of supply, Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
568. Air services (commitments, $29,855,110), $118,124,753.
Hon. COLIN GIBSON (Minister of National Defence for Air):: Mr. Chairman, it was customary, when the estimates for the Department of National Defence were being considered during the war, to table a list of members of the force who had been awarded decorations for service. I should like to take this opportunity of placing on Hansard, with the consent of the committee, the names of those who were awarded operational decorations since the last list was published. I might add that the number of decorations earned throughout the war by members of the R.C.A.F. amounted to 8,852, and by Canadians serving in the R.A.E., 356, making a total of 9,208. The list is as follows:

Awards jor Gallantry
Honours and Decorations Awarded to Canadians from the Outbreak of War
to August 20, 1946
Air Force Cross	
Bar to Air Force Cross	
Air Force Medal	
Associate of the Royal Red Cross	
British Empire Medal	
Commander of the Order of the British Empire	
Commendation	
Companion of the Order of the Bath	
Conspicuous Gallantry Medal (Flying)	
Distinguished Conduct Medal	
Distinguished Flying Cross	
Bar to Distinguished Flying Cross	
Distinguished Flying Medal	
Bar to Distinguished Flying Medal	
Distinguished Service Cross	
Distinguished Service Order	
Bar to Distinguished Service Order	
George Cross	
George Medal	
Knight of the Order of the British Empire	
Member of the Order of the British Empire	
Mentioned in Despatches	
Military Cross	
Military Medal	
Officer of the Order of the British Empire	
Victoria Cross	
Royal Red Cross	
Belgian Croix de Guerre 1940	
Belgian Military Cross, 1st Class	
Czechoslovakian Medal for Valour	
Czechoslovakian Military Cross	
French Croix de Guerre	
French Croix de Guerre Etoile D'Argent	
French Croix de Guerre avec Etoile D'Argent and F.F.I.
Emblem	
French Legion of Honour	
Grand Officers Cross of Polonia Restituta	
Greek Air Force Cross	
Greek Distinguished Service Medal	
Netherlands Flying Cross	
Netherlands Bronze Lion	
Polish "Virtuti Militari", 5th Class	
Polonia Restituta, 4th Class	
Russian Medal for Valour	
U.S. Army Air Medal	
U.S. Army Air Medal and Oak Leaf Cluster	
U.S. Distinguished Flying Cross	
U.S. Legion of Merit (Commander)	
U.S. Legion of Merit (Officer)	
U.S. Legion of Merit (Legionnaire)	
U.S. Purple Heart Medal	
U.S. Silver Star	
U.S. Soldier Medal	
Totals
Canadians
l.C.A.F.	in R.A.F.	Total430	18	4481	-	143	1	4420	20383	1	38442	2	44295	-	29523	4	2712	-	121	-	14,014	196	4,210214	26	240509	24	533-	1	1-	1	172	16	886	2	84	1	519	1	20-	1	1316	2	3182,177	49	2,2264	2	61	-	1110	3	1131	1	21	-	11	-	11	-	11	-	12	1	360	-	601	-	11	12	-	22	-	21	-	11	-	17	-	71	-	1-	1	1-	1	11	-	123	-	2319	-	1915	-	156	-	64	-	41	-	11	-	12	1	31	-	18,852	356	9,208
Awards jor Gallantry



V.I., B.C.

[Stage Direction]
J26944, F/O Groves, T. A., Wetaskiwin, Alta.
J35652, F/O Guthman, M. C., Ladner' B.C.
J20938, F/L Hall, J. M., 177 Aubrey St., Winnipeg, Man.
J36204, F/O Hamm, C. W., 466 Morton St., Toronto, Ont.
C799, W/C Harnett, T. P., 1385 Main St., Moncton, N.B.
J27516, F/L Harper, E. D., 32nd Road, R.R. 1, Haney, B.C.
J24956, F/L Harrison, H. W., 11067-82nd Ave., Edmonton, Alta.
R98S64. W/Ol Harrins, W., R.R. No. 1, Naieom, Sask.
J93873, P/O Hayden, W. V., 140 Hep bourne St., Toronto, Ont.
J89186, F/O Heaven, C. E. G., 106 Borland St., Orillia, Ont.
J23082, F/L Heaven, E. A., P.O. Box 13, Grand Forks, B.C.
J36298, F/O Hebert, C. E. R. Y., 6852 Fabre St., Montreal, Que.
J35270, F/O Hemming, C. G., Box 324, Dartmouth, N.S.
J14638, F/L Hempsall, L. C., 4363 James St., Vancouver, B.C.
J14688, F/L Henry, R. J., 823-15th St., Saskatoon, Sask.
J10764, F/L Herring, A. M., 44 Marina Ave., Long Branch, Ont.
J10354, F/L Hewson, B. G., M.401 Maryland St., Winnipeg, Man.
J28887, F/O Hickman, W. R., 4485-W. 6th Ave., Vancouver, B.C.
J37137, F/L Hill, D. G., Box 783 Welland, Ont.
J14031, F/L Hingston, H. W., 699 Grosvenor Ave., Westmount, Que.
J22411. F/O Hinseliffe, A., 626 Devonshire Road, Windsor, Ont.
J35553, F/O Holland, W. J., 59 St. Georges Crescent, Goderich, Ont.
J37655, F/O Holmes, W. W., 108 Myrtle St., Boston, Mass., U.S.A.
J26099, S/L Holmes, P. D., 336 Newport Ave., Victoria, B.C.
J10491, S/L Horan, F. J., 521-lst St., S., Kenora, Ont.
J27674, F/O Howard, J. W, 76 Highcroft Rd., Toronto, Ont.

Awards jor Gallantry
J43199, F/L Hudson, D. E. T., 400 Woodbine Ave., Toronto, Ont.
J35092, F/O Hudson, D. H., Morton, Ont.
J37175, F/O Hunter, H. E., 141 Colborne St., Kiugston, Ont.
J44128, F/O Hunting, P. R., 4 Belgrave Sq., Scunthorpe, Lines., England.
J26230, F/L Hurlbut, E. E., Fort Saskatchewan, Alta.
J87286, F/O Isenberg, M., 778 College St., Toronto, Ont.
J89857, F/L Jackson, I. B., 1 Doncaster Ave., Toronto, Ont.
J87404, F/O James, R. V., 384 Highfield St., Moncton, N.B.
J80845, F/L James, T. F. A., Ste 21, Dalkeith Apts., Winnipeg. Man.
J9G470, F/O Joel, W. V., 137 West-6th St., Vancouver, B.C.
J27300, F/O John, J. E. L., Glenelda, Sidney, B.C.
J27585, F/O Johnson, R., 523-15th Prince Albert, Sask.
J37138, F/L Johnston, J. H., Nashwasksis, N.B.
J371G1, F/O Joyner, R. C., 228 Oakwood Ave.,
Toronto, Ont.
J13465, F/L Johnston, J. P. S., Box 245, Arnprior, Ont.
J12342, S/L Jones, A. A., 3GG6 Marine Drive, West Vancouver, B.C.
J18919, F/L Jordan, N., 301 Poplar Ave., Winnipeg, Man.
C18841, F/O Joy, W. N., 232 Queen St., North Bay. Ont.
J38070, F/L Kane, R. G., Alliance, Alta.
J94427, P/O Katrichak, J., Michel, B.C.
J18810. F/L Keari, E. E., Cardston, Alta.
J38108, F/O Keeper, G. J., 934 Balmoral Rd., Victoria B.C.
J38387, F/O Lemdrock, R. J., 416 Beverly St., Winnipeg, Man.	. ,
J16875, F/L Kennedy, W. W., 102 Merrick St., Toronto, Ont.
J22963, F/L King, J. A., 812 Manning Ave., Toronto, Ont.
J1056G, F/L Kinnear, S., 289 Beresford Ave., Toronto, Ont.
J36333, F/O Kitbon, M. W., 121 Livingstone Ave., Toronto, Ont.
J5133, S/L Knight, J. F., 3 DuMauner Blvd., Toronto, Ont.
J3G814. F/O Kooyman, B., 244 Fortier Ave., North Kildonan, Man.
J23941, F/L Lafferty, W. G., 213 Collmgwood St.. Kingston.
J37744. F/O Laforce, J. A. P., 611 St. Jean St., Quebec.
J29856. F/O Laidlaw, M. S., 13 Allan Park Cresc., Edinburgh, Scotland.
J3105, S/L Leeper, J. F., 204 John St., Arn-Vancouver, B.C.
J94197, P/O Langley, F. P., 13 Gwynne Ave.,
Toronto, Ont.
J39010. F/O Lapointe. L. P. H.. c/o Queens Hotel. 621 Barker St., Nelson, B.C.
J94838, P/O Larrimore, J. L., Coleman, Alta.
J89934, F/L Laviolette, J. A., Echo Bay, B.C.
J3105, S/L Leefer, J. F„ 204 John St., Arnprior, Ont.
J35051, F/O Legros, C. B., 404 Tache Ave., St. Boniface. Man.
J39009, F/O Leigh, H. A., 3437 Kingsway, Vancouver, B.C.
J37333, F/O Lineham. G. W.. Okotoks, Alta.
J86937, F/O Linton, W. B., Islay, Alta.
J43798. F/O Little, M. W„ 11031-15th Ave., Edmonton, Alta.
J21422. F/L Little. S. W„ Aginoourt, Ont.
J41636, F/O Logan, A. S., Lyons Brook, Pictou Co., N.S.
J90554, F/L Low, R. A., 223-9A St., N.W., Calgary, Alta.
J92082, F/O Lukinuk, T. A., 10615-103rd St., Edmonton, Alta.
J85500, F/O Lussier, K. E., 63 Blackburn Ave., Ottawa.
J88870, F/O Macdonald, D., 205 Mayfair Ave., Winnipeg, Man.
J26713, F/O Macdonald, D. M., 45 Laurier Drive, Trail, B.C.
J86993. F/O Macdonald, N. D., 15 Theresa St., London, Ont.
J88656, F/O MacGregor, I. M., Wetaskiwin, Alta.
J36233, F/O Mackerrow, R. E., Kleinburg, Ontario.
J88245, F/O Makie, A. M„ 66 Furby St., Winnipeg, Man.
J35524, F/O MacLeod, A. J., 60 Howe St., Sydney, N.S.
J24399, F/L MacLeod, J. L., 127 Nelson St., Kingston, Ont.
J89724, F/L MacMillan, R. P., 1010 Queen's Ave., Victoria, B.C.
J89665, F/O MacNair, K. A. C., R.R. No. 1 Didsbury, Alta.
J16607, F/L Madill, B. D., North Edmonton, Alta.
J14417, F/L Magee, D. T., Box 343, Souris, Man.
J25694. F/L Mahon, H. H. S., 1234 Lajoie Ave., Outremont, Que.
J91184, F/O Major, J. F. O., Osseo, Ont.
J28802. F/O Manion, W. J., 93 Sweetland Ave., Ottawa, Ont.
J85595, P/O Mamm, E. J., 1404 McTavish St., Regina, Sask.
K19153, F/O Maneix, J. B., Meota, Sask.
C795. S/L Marcou, H. F., 483 Grosvenor Ave., West-mount, Que.
J29775, F/L Mark, W. M., 257 St. Clements Ave., Toronto, Ont.
J36615, F/L Marlow, G. C., c/o Canadian Bank of Commerce, London. England.
J36873, F/O Marritt, E. F., Keswick, Ont.
J39925. F/O Martin, R. W„ 327 Wellington Ave., Windsor, Ont.
J38182, F/0 Massie, J. C., 9 Main St., Toronto. Ont. .
J39318, F/O Matthews, A. S., R.R. No. 5, Strathroy, Ont.
J25970. F/L Mavaut, P. R., 1466 Mansfield St.. Montreal, P.Q.
J89628, F/O Maxwell, R. B., 66 Glen Rd., Toronto. Ont.
J86046. P/O McCaffrey, J. H. A., Box 555, Melville. Sask.
J87303, F/L McClenachan, W. A., 1330-15th Ave., Regina, Sask.
.119331, F/O McCrindle, J., 28 Fawcette Ave., Winnipeg, Man.
J38157, F/L McCurdy, R. W., 100 Broadway Blvd.. Montreal E., Que.
.125218. F/L McCutcheon, E. B., 8550 Heather St.. Vancouver, B.C.
J28191, F/O McDonald, J. O., Ste. 28, Lovat Apts., Smith St.. Winnipeg. Man.
J38408. F/O McGeouch, J. H., 114 Imperial Street. Toronto. Ont.
J19168, F/O MeGillivray, R. L., 1115 Comox St., Vancouver, B.C.
J90582. F/O McGrath, M. K., R.R. No. 1, Bartonville, Ont.
J37482, F/L McGuire, J. S., 598 Indian Rd., Toronto. Ont.
.192110, F/O McGuire, L. J., 1603 Pillette Rd., Windsor, Ont.
J93213, F/O McHardy, I. M., 2545 Scenic Ave., Oakland, Calif., U.S.A.
Awards for Gallantry
[Stage Direction]
J87373, F/O Mcllhone, N. J., 780 Rockland Ave., Outremont, Que.
J40O22, F/O McIntosh, E. R., Grande Prairie, Alta.
J18054, F/O McKay, W. H., 16 Clovelly Ave., Tyllwyn, Ebbie Yale, Man.
J26541, F/O McKinlay, J. A., 5630 Balaclava St., Vancouver, B.C.
J39906, F/O McKinnon, D. L., 4304 St. Antoine, Montreal, Que.
J4423, S/L McKnight, R. E. C., Minett, Mus-
J16138, F/L McLaughlin, M. W., 12204-82nd St., Edmonton, Alta.
J38771, F/O McLean, W. G., Moorepark, Man.
J29796, F/L McLeod, W. D., 467 Charlotte St., London, Ont.
J28227, F/O McMath, M., Bradner, B.C.
J11320, F/L McNeil, H. E., R.R. No. 2, Drayton, Ont.
J26236, F/L McPhail, H. D., Bankend, Sask.
J10107, F/L McPherson, I. E., 956 Esquimau Rd., Victoria, B.C.
C712.5, F/O McQuaid. T. J., 2059 Robinson St., Regina, Sask.
J41634, F/O Melbourne, F. E., 176 Holm wood Ave., Ottawa, Ont.
J38282, F/O Mellard, J. V., 46 Arkleldun Ave., Apt. 103, Hamilton, Ont.
J90454, F/O Michie, L. G., 58 Brookfield St., Toronto, Ont.	[DOT]
R167681, W02 Middleton, H. I„ Pense, Sask.
J11239, F/L Miller, G., 1 Mallory Gardens, Apt. 8, Toronto, Ont.
J40184, F/O Miller, J. A. F., 361 Wilbrod St., Ottawa, Out.
J92066, F/O Millar, J. B., 2174 Hamilton St., Regina, Sask.
J45535, F/O Mitchell, W. E., Hagersville, Ont. RR. No. 2.
J5535, F/O Mitchell, A. D., 6010 Durocher Ave., Apt. 3, Outremont, Que.
J20559, F/L Mitchell, W. R., Oakville P.O., Ont.
J43667, F/O Mizzen, C.A., 88 Forward Ave., London, Ont.
J2184S, F/L Moffat, L. C. 1925-lst Ave., E. Prince Albert, Sask.	*
J13370, F/L Montgomery, A. N., 185 Close Ave., Toronto, Ont.
R131045, W/Ol Montgomery, R. J., 15 Aik-man Ave., Hamilton, Ont. (Sister).
J90558, F/O Moreau, J. G. A., 45 Beaty Ave., Toronto, Ont.
J89374, F/O Morgan, L. F., 609-30th Ave., Calgary, Alta.
J36951, F/L Morris, A. E. L., 281 Cypress Drive. Languna Beach, California.
J6182, S/L Mosher, G. W., 168 Roseberry St., Campbellton, N.B.
J35812, F/O Moss, F. H. D., 10148-119th St., Edmonton, Alta.
J37890, F/O Mosure. E. M., Burquirlam P.O., New Westminster, B.C.
J28665, F/L Mullholkund, W. J., 42 Brookfield Rd., York Mills, Toronto, Ont.
J92267, F/O Murray, J. R., 236 Snowdon Ave., Toronto, Ont.
J36314, F/O Murray, T. R., 30 Victoria Ave., Galt, Ont.
J12040, F/L Murton, A. H., 17 Lisgar Rd., Ottawa, Ont.
J37704. F/O Mutehler, W„ 70 Dufferin Ave., Sherbrooke, Que.
J43898, F/O Nalman, A. I., 425 Grace St., Toronto, Ont.

J89837. F/O Nash, R. C., Box 243, Cumberland, B.C.
J36913, F/O Neale, H. W., 9640-105th. St., Edmonton.
J26257, F/L Nelson, D. S., 87 Morgan St., Tonawanda, N.Y., U.S.A.
C95194, P/O Netrefa, A. M., St. Walburg, Sask.
J22881, F/L Nicol, G. C., 2122 Old Orchard Ave., Montreal 28, Que.
J85080, F/O Nielsen, C. M., 35-19 147th St., Flushing, N.Y.
J30311, F/O Nobert, A., Gravelbourg, Sask.
J35372, F/L Nobes, W. O., 4848 Westmount Ave., Montreal, Que.
J14566, F/L Northern, E., 1014 Woodbine Ave., Toronto.
J17977, F/O O'Brien, J. M. P., 309 Moffatt Ave.. Verdun, P.Q.
J93523. P/O Oehm, W. F., Box 323, St. Mary's, Ont.
J30273, F/O Ogle, W. M., 278 Kenilworth Ave., Toronto, Ont.
J43684, F/L Oldham, R., c/o S/L Parry Templestowe, Banbury Rd., Bicester Oxen, England.
J28859, F/L Olsen, T. C., 34 Donino Ave., York Mills, Toronto, Ont.
J37069. F/L O'Neill, B. H., 449 Esplanade, Sydney. N.S.
J26673, F/L Osborn, W. W., 9 Eagles Hill, Hespeler, Ont.
J10416, F/L Parker, C. H., 963 Sherbuirn St., Winnipeg.
R146583. W/Ol, Parker, D. G., 165 Church St., Belleville, Ont.
J35014. F/L Paterson, R. P., 1536 Angus St., Regina, Sask.
J89787, F/O Patterson, E., Gore St., Perth, Ont.
C35269, F/L Patterson, N. E., 27 First St., Welland, Ont.
R77617, W/02, Patterson, T., Turin, Alta.
J18009, F/O Peacock, W. G., Everett, Ont.
J35727, F/L Pearson, A. L., 3340 Cedar Hill Rd.. Victoria, B.C.
C26196, F/L Pearson, H. W., 1325 Coy Ave., Saskatoon, Sask.
J21611, F/L Pearson, W. E., 6543 Vine St., Vancouver.
J15773, F/L Percival, G. W., 17 Chestnut St. E., St. Catharines, Ont.
J36485, F/L Perrier, J. G. F., 133 Montreal Rd.. Eastview, Ont.
J36603, F/O Peters, W. D., 362 Hyland Ave., Sudbury, Ont.
J38956. F/O Philp, O. B., Ste 8C, Debary Apts., 626 Wardilaw Ave., Winnipeg.
J35762, F/O Pittman, H. J., 4466 Oxford Ave., North D.G., Montreal.
J28633, F/L Pitu, C. L., Wolfe Creek, Alta.
J18616, F/O Platana, D. D., 2357 Hamilton St., Regina.
J11966, F/L Playford, J. D., 55 Watson Ave., Toronto, Ont.
J89324, F/O PJishka, W. M., Myrnam, Alta.
J25926, F/L Poag, J. H., 5 Beulah Ave., Hamilton, Ont.
J35385, F/L Poirier, J. E. G., Box 24, New Carlisle, Que.
J37724, F/O Pollock, J., 94 Houghton Ave., S. Hamilton.
J19169, F/L Powdrill, R., Ste 5 Imperial Apts., Moose Jaw, Sask.
J25756 F/L Pratt, D. O., 989 Jessie Ave., Winnipeg.

A wards jor Gallantry
J19317 F/0 Price, S., 195 Chuirch St., Brock-ville, Out.
J36386, F/O Quarnstrom, R. G., Norquay, Sask.
J12473, F/L Quiun, G. S., Box 232, Prince George, B.C.
J94177, P/O Ranlyck, P. W., c/o Mrs. Harris, 3833 Dominion St., New Westminster, B C
J9872, F/L Raynes, D. F., Bounty, Sask.
R16339, W/02 Reid, D. M., 625 Park Place, St. Paul, Minn., U.S.A.
J90338, F/O Reid, M. G„ Minski, Ont.
J36186, F/L Reid, K. G., Falconbridge, Ont.
.T91122, F/O Rhodes, R. W. A., 194 Dowling Ave., Toronto.
J40058, F/O Riches, J. R., Aberdeen, Sask.
J24425, F/L Ridge, R. C., 5 Hogarth Ave., Toronto.
J40371, F/O Riley, W. F., 75 Grenadier, Rd., Toronto.
J40055 F/O Roberts, L. R. 1102-15th Ave. W., Calgary.
J17046, F/L Roberts, W. M., MacGregor, Man.
J87248, F/O Robertson, T. M., 265 Furby St., Winnipeg.
J8211, F/L Robertson, W. S., Scarboro, Ont.
J29650, F/L Rogers, A. W., 104 Blenheim Place, Westmount, Que.
J17219, F/L Rolls, W. E., 32 Rowanwood Ave., Toronto 5, Ont.
J93408, P/O Roney, R. H. M., 446 Albert St. E., Sault Ste Marie, Ont.
.192965, F/O Ronnebeck, R. D., 513 2nd Ave. S., Kenora, Out.
C94589, P/O Roper, H. W., 50 Gerrard St. E., Toronto.
J37009, F/O Ross, A. D., Kincaid, Sask.
J16986, F/L Ross, A. L., Box 203, Holland, Man.
J85482, F/O Ross, J. T., 106 Lincoln St., Jersey City, N.J., U.S.A.
J13048, F/L Rothenbush, J. W., 1431 W. 53rd Ave., Vancouver.
J21910, F/L Rotstein, L. A., 1131 Avenue Rd., Toronto.
J19707, F/O Rowan, F. H., 122 Front St. S., Orillia, Ont.
J94512, P/O Ruddy, L. P., 652 Gladstone Ave., Ottawa.
.J10118, S/L Rue, D. R. H., 206 Balfour Ave., Winnipeg, Man.
J20593, F/L Russell, J. A., 921 Greenwood Ave., Toronto.
R'256267, W/02 Ruthig, V. M., 273 Brunswick St., Stratford, Ont.
J37727, F/O Rymer, D., 116 Tamarack St., Timmins, Ont.
J11033, F/L Salo, T. A., 751 Delta Ave., Vancouver, B.C.
J36850, F/O Sargent, J. H„ New Hazelton, British Columbia.
R163670, W/O Saruk, M. A., Alvere, Sask.
J29097, A/F/L Schenk, W. &., 153 Waterloo St.. Kitchener, Ont.
J43626, F/O Schmidt, P. F. L., 390 Montrose Ave., Toronto, Ont.
J12865, F/'L Schroeder, W. L., R.R. 2, Ceo-tralia. Ont.
J17242, F/L Schubert, T. E., Otter Lake Rd., Armstrong. B.C.
J26748, F/O Scott. M. N., Innisfail, Alta.
J13483, F/L Seton, H. W., 117 Brook Ave. S.. Montreal West. P.Q.	.
.117715, F/O Shaughnessy, P., 400 Kensington Ave., Westmount, P.Q.
J14304, F/L Shaw, E. H., Nanton, Alta.
J14871, F/L Sheppard, T. S.. 137 Arlington Ave., Toronto, Ont.
J87336, A/F/L Sherlock, G. T., 1937 Robinson St., Regina. Sask.
J17048, F/L Sherrett, R. J., 625-lst Ave. S., Kenora, Ont.
J17892, F/L Short, C. H., 94 Huntley St., Toronto, Ont.
J85564, A/F/L Simonson, L. O., 344 Rose-berry St., St. James, Man.
J9S49, A/S/L Simpson, H. A. L., 2755 Yonge Sty Apt. 222, Toronto, Ont.
R215338, W02 Simpson, I. R., 1170 Barclay St.. Vancouver, B.C.
C35386, A/F/L Simpson, W. G. R., 1251-5th Ave. A., South, Lethbridge, Alta.
J39135, A/F/L Skinner, S., 11448-93rd St., Edmonton, Alta.
J664 S/L Smith. F. E. W., 3775 W. 37th Ave.. Vancouver, B.C.
J93927, P/G Smith, G., Box 27, Galahad, Alta.
J19332, F/O Smith, J. K., 62 Victor Ave., Toronto 6, Ont.
J19490, F/O Smith, W. B., 691 Markham St., Toronto. Ont.
J10553, A/S/L Smith, W. J., 1584 Hampshire Rd., Victoria, B.C.
J18361, F/L Smith, W. R., 130 Keewatin Ave., Toronto 12. Ont.
J35822, F/O Smithman. E. L., 822 Dublin St., New Westminster, B.C.
J19459, F/L Smyth, E. R., Box 136, Trochu, Alta.
J87861, F/L Sorenson, S. P., Box 323, Rouleau, Sask.
J24664, F/L Sowerby, C. E. R., 546 Ingersoll St., Winnipeg, Man.
J86086, F/L Spankie. E., c/o J. Spankie, 617-16th Ave. N.E., Calgary, Alta.
J85771, F/O Spence, A. L., 2337 Howard Ave., Windsor, Ont.
J5820, F/L Sproule, F. H., 5557 Larch St., Vancouver. B.C.
J92555, F/O Stafford. R. E., 202 Madeline Dr.. Pasadena, Calif., U.S.A.
J24643, F/L Stelfox, H. B., Rocky Mountain House, Alta.
J93450, F/O Stepenoff, A. C., 1019-19th Ave, W., Calgary. Alta.
R212120, WOl Stewart, E. A., R.R. 2, Tofield, Alta.
J94630. P/O Storry, G. P„ Box 369, Qu'Appelle, Sask.
J93380. P/O Storsater, R. G., 889 Valour Rd.. Winnipeg. Man.
C1495, S/L Stroud, J. M., 81 Dunsmure Ave., Hamilton, Ont.
J89793. F/O Sulpher, F. M., Box 90, Renfrew, Ont.
J38728, F/O Sutherland, W. R., Bradford, Ont.
J90135, F/O Talbot, M. R., 383 Langside St., Winnipeg, Man.
J86964, F/L Tarling, D. E., 21 Marchmount Rd., Toronto, Ont.
J88844, F/O Teit, S. O. W.. Merritt, B.C.
J27415, F/O Tessier, J. W. L., 110 Foundry St.. Laehute, P.O.	.	,
J89485, F/O Thompson, R. T.. Imperial. Sask.
J93112. F/O Thompson, W. E. P., 8 Wilfred Ave.. Toronto, Ont.
J27620. F/O Thrasher, J. A., 165 Ruttan St., Port Arthur. Ont.
J38347. F/O Tigchelaar, A. E., 56 Main St., Dundas. Ont.
*J92642. F/O Tilston, N., 265 Normanhuret Ave.. Hamilton. Ont.
J7041. F/L Todd. R. K„ 5556-7th Ave., Rose-mount. Montreal. P.Q.
T28659. F/L Topliss, H. G., Box 1243, Ross-land, B.C.
Awards for Gallantry
[Stage Direction]
J22854, F/L Traynor, C. J., 812-7th Ave. E„ Owen Sound, Ont.
J88131, F/O Tunis, W. E., 8 Paisley Ave. N., Hamilton, Ont.
C4456, F/O Turner, S. D., 2320 8th St.,
i nlopiirv A ] f n
J35759, F/L Yipond, J. F„ 794 Carlaw Ave., Toronto, Ont.
R205256, W02 Wade, G., 651 Minto St., Winnipeg.
J19913, F/O Wagner, E. N. D., 1337 Graveley St., Vancouver, B.C.
J38247, F/O Walker, J. E., 16 Randolph Ave., Toronto, Ont.
J11051, F/L Walker, R. T„ 1001 N. 10th St.. Duncan, Oklahoma, U.S.A.
J38431, F/O Wallis, S. R., 609 10th St. E., Lethbridge, Alta.
J93876, P/O Wahvyn. C. J., Lipson, Sask.
J88115, F/O Ward, D. M., 10 Kirkalta Apts., Edmonton, Alta.
J12627, F/L Watson, F. F., 299 Lake St., Peterborough, Ont.
J6206, S/L Watson, T. W„ 1209 MacKay St., Montreal, Que.
J93891, P/O Waugh, J. H., Wilmot Valley, P.E.I.
J92181, F/O Welsman, W. W., 83 Brooks Ave., Toronto, Ont.
J39914, F/O West, J. W.. Hopewell Hill. N.B.
J15005, F/L Whalen, J. H., 2995 W. 1st Ave., Ste. 4, Vancouver, B.C.
J38314, F/O Whiteman, A. G., Neepawa, Man.
J18776, F/O Whitney, J. L., Eriksdale, Man.
J37080, F/O Whitten, L. N., 1175 Wolseley Ave., Winnipeg, Man.
J40060, F/O Whittles, H. M., 11038-86th Ave., Edmonton, Alta.
J29129, F/L Whynaeht, K. A., Volger's Cove, Lunenburg Co., N.S.
J6184, S/L Wilkie, H. W., 221 Canice St., Orillia, Ont.
J93718, P/O Wilkins, J., 11932-102 St., Edmonton, Alta.
J35339, F/L Wilkinson, E. C. S., Box 401, Napanee, Ont.
J4867, T/F/L Williams, C. F., 75 James St., Ottawa, Ont.
J12038, F/L Winmill, A. E., 12 Wilson St„ Lachute Mills, P.Q.
J36872, F/O Wissler, G. H., Elora, Ont.
J36252, F/O Wygle, B. S., Crossfield, Alta.
J40475, F/O Wynne, J., 618 Coxwell Ave., Toronto, Ont.
R189484, W02, Yard, W. L„ Princeton, B.C.
J37734, F/O Yeaman, J. K., 22 High Park Gardens, Toronto, Ont.
J14819, F/L Young, D. B„ 1764 Wesbrook Cresc., Vancouver, B.C.
J92888, P/O Young, G. M., 1650 Aird Ave., Montreal, Que.
J37737, F/O Young, H. R., 212 Erskine Ave., Toronto. Ont.
J38377, F/L Payne, D. M., 1529 Bathurst St., Toronto, Ont.
Bar to Distinguished Flying Cross
J16350, F/L Angus, T. A., 219 St. Helen's Ave., Toronto, Ont.
C89543, F/L Batchelor, A. W., 629 John St., Victoria, B.C.
J86510, F/L Boyd, F. L., 4454 Oxford Ave., N.D.G., Montreal, P.Q.
C89533, S/L Brown, J. C. R., 849 Broadview Ave., Toronto, Ont.
J26394, S/L Brownell, G. J., Port McNieoll, Ont.

J22379, F/L Caine, J. T., General Delivery, South Edmonton, Alta.
J22909, S/L Campbell, T., 90 Pears Ave., Toronto 5, Ont.
C89569, W/C Comwar, J., 2315 Eglington Ave., Toronto, Ont.
J5083, S/L Coons, H. L., Collins Bay. Ont.
J16384, F/L Cuelenaere, M. R. C., 220 Williams Rd., Chilliwack, B.C.
J27305, F/L Dixie, J. P., 4036 Imperial St., New Westminster, B.C.
J11502, F/L Duchesnay, A. A. H. J. N. A., 263 Fraser St., Quebec City, P.Q.
J17017, F/L Duncas, E. G., Miami, Man.
J24375, F/L Edwards, W. F., 10945-90th Ave., Edmonton, Alta.
J11442, S/L Ellwood, G. B., 253-5th Ave., Portage La Prairie, Man.
J9069, S/L Fairbanks, D. C., 424 East State St., Ithaca, N.Y., U.S.A.
J15734 S/L Falls, F. M., 3740 The Boulevard, Westmount, P.Q.
J28917, F/O Ferguson, R. M., Erin, Ont.
J11188, F/L Forrest, H. L., 3855 Glen Dr., Vancouver, B.C.
J10133, W/C Gandertou, V. F., Leduc, Alta.
J12273, Gibbons, N., 2355 Marine Dr. W., Vancouver, B.C.
J17352, F/L Hammond. A. B., 5854 MeLynn St., N.D.G., Montreal, P.Q.
J15661, S/L Hudson, J., 2012 Oak Bay Ave., Victoria, B.C.
J27719, F/L Kyte, M. S., 503 Lauder Ave., Toronto, Ont.
J8812, F/L McDougall, T. R., 373 Elock Ave., North Bay, Ont.
.T17272, F/L Naylor, W. K., Coleman, Alta.
J3202, S/L Neilly, L. G., Gilford, Ont.
P16193, S/'L Newitt, R. M., 1537 Haro St., Vancouver, B.C.
J15600, S/L Peterson, H. V., 2517 16 A St. E., Calgary, Alta.
J10982, W/C Hawson, B. F. N., 51 Robinson St.. Hamilton, Out.
J10676, F/L Rolfe, V., 1185 George Ave., Windsor, Ont.
J5690, F/L Smith, F. D., 932 W. 19th Ave., Calgary, Alta.
J15959, F/L Smith, K. C. A., 438-0th St., Saskatoon, Sask.
J10122, F/L Vann, G. C. J., Box 886, Flin Flon, Man.
C89534, F/L Williams, L. H., 1715 Donald St., Fort William, Ont.
George Medal
J37488, F/O Baillie, J. J., 369 Victoria Park Ave., Toronto, Ont.
J24596, F/L Varden, D. P., Box 104, Merrick-ville, Ont.
Conspicuous Gallantry Medal
J36349, F/O McLean, H. V., 3 Smirle Ave., Ottawa, Gnt.
Distinguished Flying Medal
K255545, F/S Carlson, A. B., R.R. No. 1, Saanichton, B.C.
R90414, Sgt Coekaday, A. J., 188 Albion St., Brantford, Ont.
R252961, F/S Dixon, J. D., 6 Dawson St., Waratah, N.S.W., Australia.
R18S791. F/S Donovan, I. I., Box 759, 144 Pine St., Collingw-ood, Ont.
R250812, Sgt. Edwards, F., 5 Amherst Ave., Toronto, Ont.

Awards jor Gallantry
R19350, Sgt. Edwards, J. H., Cranbrook, B.C.
R168908, F/S Fertich, F. O., Box 1369, Ross-land, B.C.
R218578, F/S Fisher, J. W., 239 La Rose Ave., The Pas, Man.
R71729, Sgt. Giles, R. G., 26 Dawson St., Dartmouth, N.S.
R257869, F/S Groulx, E., Garson, Ont.
R219718, F/S Hamilton, F. R., Waubau-shene, Ont., R.R. No. 1.
R193797, F/S Hickey, K. A., R.R. No. 1, Highland Creek, Ont.
R133105, F/S Jones. D. E., 3813 Patterson Ave., Burnaby, New Westminster, B.C.
R269907, F/S Kuchma, W., Steveston. B.C.
R220942, F/S Leprich, J. O., Box 582, Hanover, Ont.
R218209, F/S McGill, J. E., 417-5th Ave. N, Saskatoon, Sask.
R213856, F/S McMurchy, G. A., 278 2nd Ave. E., Swift Current, Sask.
R269111, F/S McNamara, J. G., 54 West St., Thorold, Ont.
R203649, F/S Moffatt, R. W., 2336 Victoria Ave., Regina, Sask.
R149600, F/S Nordbye, G. L., Box 12, Silver-ton, B.C.
R275522, F/S Oxenbury, J. F., 164-lst St., Ocean Falls, B.C.
R188018, F/S Potter, M. A., Warkworth, Ont.
R214651. F/S Ridley, F. G., High St. Nevin, North Wales.
R213931, F/S Stapleton, J. A. P., Glen Bain, Sask.
R271382, F/S Waddell, W. H., 723 Carlaw Ave., Toronto, Ont.
R26553S, W02 Woytowich, W., Alvena, Sask.
Officer of the Order of the British Empire
C775, W/C Birehall, L. J., Quinte Hotel, Belleville, Ont.
Member of the Order of the British Empire
J4737, F/L Ash, W. F., 3515 Edgewater St., Dallas, Texas, U.S.A.
J23407, F/L Higgins, P. N., 220 Methow St., Wenatchee, Washington, U.S.A.
J40826, F/O Riley, G. C., Hudson Heights,
[Stage Direction]
British Empire Medal
R78722, Sgt Jamieson, T. D., 1912 Haro St., Vancouver, B.C.
R275318. AC1 Nightingale, W. F., 14 Palmerston Ave., Brantford, Ont.
J96294, P/O Warren, J. L. N., Pointe Au Pic, Murray Bay, P.Q.
Mention in Despatches
R60701, Sgt Allen, N. C., 130'll-121st St., Edmonton, Alta.
J20843, F/L Anderson, L. H., Box 28, Blackie, Alta.
R82220, Sgt. Argue, A. L., Pakenham. Ont.
J19798, F/L Arthur, R. J., 34 Tulip St., Dartmouth. N.S.
J7641, F/L Aylsworth, A. B., St. George, Ont.
C48210, P,/0 Bain. K., Argyle St., Yarmouth, N.S.
R53385, Sgt. Baker, C. A., 44 Hunter St., Toronto, Ont.
R95002, Cpl. Batten, F. L. C., 38-39th St., Brandon, Man.
R73065, Sgt. Bedford, C. F., 36 Sydney St., Saint John, N.B.
R64450, Sgt. Berryman, E. H. J., 31 West Ave. South., Hamilton, Ont.
R76479, Sgt. Blanchard, R. A., Box 653, Kentville, Kings Co., N.S.
R65602, Sgt. Bowins, C. H., 145 Parkmount Rd., Toronto, Ont.
R104832, W/O Brown, A. W„ 4016 Beacons-field Ave., N.D.G., Montreal, Que.
R67580, Sgt. Brown, G. A., 751 Huron Line, Windsor, Ont.
J96304, P/O Brown, M. W., 32 Parkway Ave., Toronto, Ont.
R64513, Sgt. C-assaboom, H. D., Tinerton, Digby Co., N.S.
R89818, Sgt. Charlwood, D. W., Crescent Mansions, Princess Crescent, Brighton, England.
R124136, F/S Cheremkora, J., 335 Aberdeen Ave., Winnipeg, Man.
J25257, F/O Clark, G. R., P.O. Box 41, Ninga, Man.
10212A, F/S Coat, W. G., 74 Cheever St., Hamilton, Ont.
R68056, Sgt. Cook, W. H., 1118 Kensington Rd., Ste. 3, Calgary, Alta.
R63687, W/O. 1 Cooper, A. D., 190 Portland St., Dartmouth, N.S.
R61317, Sgt. Dale, H. A, Tweed, Ont.
6535, Sgt. Dale, J. E., 87 Russell Rd., East-view, Ont.
R108725, W/O Dean, C. A., 34 Juliet Cresc., Toronto 9, Ont.
J12624, F/L Dearing, P. F., 121 Inkerman St., London. Ont.
R84027, Sgt. Deverell, G. A., Mount Forest, Ont.
J10719, F/L Dewis. M. W., Canmore. Alta.
R128363, W/O Dickinson, J. C., 329-19th St, W., Prince Albert, Sask.
R65077, Sgt. Digout, E. A., French Cove, Richmond Co., N.S.
R90552, Sgt. Dodgson, J. G., 65 Princess St. W., North Bay, Ont.
R81054, F/S Dore, B. V., 505 Catharine St., Victoria, B.C.
R107352, Sgt. Dowler, G. D., 703-4th Ave. N., Saskatoon, Sask.
J11632, F/L Dyck, M. M., 376-W. 20th Ave., Vancouver, B.C.
J14306, F/L Early, A. A., 2029 Iroquois St., Windsor, Ont.
R58405, Sgt. Eekstrand, L. P., Stockholm, Sask.
J41453, F/O Empringham, L. G., 79 Cameron Cresc., Leaside, Ont.
R63688, Sgt. Fair, A. K., R.R. No. 5, Guelph, Ont.
C1462, S/L Farrell, D. W., 3449 Ont. Ave., Montreal, P.Q.
R52194, Sgt. Faux, A. W., 202 Centre St., St. Thomas, Ont.
R63692, Sgt. Finch, R. V., 521 Victoria St., Point Edward, Ont.
J15051, F/L Fleming, J. I'., Box 1115, 41| George St.. Smiths Falls, Ont.
J22448, F/O Freeman, H., 25 Rothesay Apts., Winnipeg, Man.
R109259, Sgt. Gibson, G. R. M., 80 Worsley St., Barrie, Ont.
R166811, W02 Gormley, W., Bella Bella. B.C.
J13979, F/O Gray, R. B., 337 Home St., Winnipeg, Man.
R63643, Sgt. Greenfield, K. R., 151 Horton St.. London, Ont.
R119027, Sgt. Hall. K. W., 43 St. Lennards, Cresc., Lawrence Parle, Toronto, Ont.
R95873. F/S Hawkins, H. R., 584 Chapel St., Ottawa, Gnt.
C9221. F/L Hodgson, J. B„ 508 Grosvenor Ave.. Westmount, Montreal, P.Q.
R86935, Sgt. Hooson, T. E., 11119-60th St., Edmonton, Alta.
Awards jor Gallantry
[Stage Direction]
J87265, P/O Huglies-Games, N. E., Kelowna,
[Stage Direction]
J10650, F/O Hunter, B. E., c/o J. Cecil Mill, Kensington, P.E.I.
R79722, Sgt. Jamieson, T. D., Gull Lake, Sask.
J12494, F/L Knechtel, E. E„ Box 37, Winslow, Washington, U.S.A.
R104784, W/O Lamontagne, J. G. G. C., 550 McEachran St., Outremont, P.Q.
R82596, Sgt. Leblanc, J. C. M., 40 St. Marie Sto Hull, P.Q.
R251419, W02 Lepp, G., Box 112, St. Davids, Ont.
J86407, P/O MacEwen, G. F„ Morell, P.E.I.
R116105, W/O McMacken, G. R., 290 Furby St., Winnipeg, Man.
C89501, S/L McVeigh, C. N„ 11 Hillview Dr„ Hucclecote, Gloucester, England.
C8043, F/L Mills, 0. A., Box 326, Strathroy, Ont.
J46893, F/O Morasse, J. A. P. E., 1255 Main St., Moncton, N.B.
R157271, W/O Motriuk, S. A., 49 Cobourg St., Winnipeg, Man.
J23249, F/O Mulvihill, K. P., 299 Lilac St., Winnipeg, Man.
J14862, F/L Mungall, R. H„ Union Mills, N.B.
J25444, F/O Nelson, K. L., R.R. 1, Box 52, Ponoka, Alta.
R107859, F/S Newman, W. A., West Bend, Sask.	.
J15498, F/O Otten, J. F., 47 Quebec St., Kingston, Ont.
R122035, Sgt. Pearson, A. T„ R.R. No. 3, 2252 Maddaugh Rd., Cloverdale, B.C.
C1397, S/L Poag, W. F., Listowel, Ont.
J9668, F/O Porter, C. E., Manson Creek Via Fort St. James, B.C.
R141955, Sgt. Radley, S. A., Fort Saskatchewan, Alta.1
J49680, P/O Regan, W. H., Cayuga, Ont.
J12050, F/L Richardson, R. H., 55-6th St., N.W. Portage la Prairie, Man.
J22752, F/L Scott, D. R.. Queen Charlotte City. B.C.
R70157, Sgt. Scott. D. S., Almonte, Ont.
J8831, S/L Shellard, D. C., 1520 Argyle Ave. W.. Vancouver.
J13946, F/L St. Aubin, J. T. W., 1153 Way-burn Ave., Grosee Pointe Park, 30, Mich., U.S.A.
R167225, F/S Tilander, E. N. C., 46 Lyon Rd., Toronto.
J38195, F/O West, J. C., Baker's Inn, Yarmouth, N.S.
R104679. Sgt. Wilcos, G. L. M., 119 Second Ave., Sherbrooke, P.Q.
King's Commendation
J50658. P/O Bryden, J. T., Box 296, North Sydney, N.S.
J3731, F/L Evans, C. J., 25 Park Rd., Brantford. Ont.
R164309, W/O 2 Smith, S. F., 1180 Howard Ave.. Windsor. Ont..
C577, S/L Wiseman, J. A., 702 Parkdale Ave., Ottawa.
UNITED STATES AWARDS - Distinguished Flying Cross
J17875, F/L Anderson, T. M., 847 Carrie St., Esquimalt, B.C.
J17126, P/O Rennie, H. T., Elora, Ont.
U.S. Legion of Merit (Degree of Commander)
Cl 1922, A/M Leckie, R., 303 Acacia Ave., Ottawa, Ont.
C50, A/V/M De Niverville, J. L. E. A., 81 Frank St., Ottawa, Ont.

C317, A/V/M Curtis, W. A., 692 Echo Drive, Ottawa, Ont.
U.S. Legion of Merit (Degree of Officer) C71, A/v/W Slemon, C. R., 92 Lisgar Rd.,
Rockcliffe, Ont.
C602, G/C Patriache, V. H., 10303-123rd St., Edmonton, Alta.
C409, G/C Hanna, W. F., University of Manitoba, Fort Garry Site, Winnipeg, Man.
C3354, W/C Smith, E. E., 1803 Lawrence Ave., Washington, D.C.
FRENCH AWARDS Croix de Guerre
J11140, F/L Bitz, F. J., 3329 W. 3rd Ave., Vancouver, B. C.
J86423, F/O Harrington, E. J., 74 Hearn Ave., Guelph, Ont.
J23797, F/L Mackenzie, B. M., Stettler, Alta. J20106, F/L Stewart, D. G., Ste. 24, 101 E. 7th Ave., Vancouver, B.C.
J23698, F/L Umpherson, W. E., Poland, Ont. J23316, F/O Wallace, R. A., 589 Oliver Rd., Port Arthur, Ont.
C12586, F/L Walz, D. M., General Delivery, Moose Jaw, Sask.
Legion of Honour
C4, A/M Johnson, G. O., 18 Acacia Ave., Ottawa, Ont.
DUTCH AWARDS Flying Cross
J22239, F/L Bassarab, R. N., 384 -Barrie St., Kingston, Ont.
J23054, F/L Churchill, R. E., 9824-92nd Ave., Edmonton, Alta.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.
The committee resumed at three o'clock.

[Stage Direction]
132. Departmental administration, $173,2l>5.
Mr. HOMUTH:: Mr. Chairman, I rise to a point of order. I consider in view-of what happened this morning that this house is not constitutionally convened. This morning the Acting Prime Minister moved that the house go into committee of supply. An amendment to that motion was moved and carried. That meant that the government was defeated in this house. The government can quote all the rules they like, Beauchesne and any other authorities, but the fact remains that the government made a motion to go into supply this morning and was defeated on the motion. There was only one course open to the government after that defeat. The vote having been taken and the government defeated, before they can go into supply the government must ask the house for a vote of confidence in the government. No such motion was made. According to British parliamentary procedure, when a motion made by any member of the government is defeated in the house the

Supply-Mines and Resources
government is defeated. I realize that certain passages can be quoted from various parliamentary authorities in support of the government; nevertheless the government was defeated this morning on a vote, and as a consequence there was only one thing for them to do and that was to move a vote of confidence in the government. After being sustained on such a vote of confidence it would be the right of the government to move that the house go into committee of supply. That was not done, and I contend that this house is now sitting unconstitutionally, that as the government was defeated on a vote this morning, we are not sitting legally as a parliament.


Mr. GIBSON (Comox-Alberni):: Ha! Ha!


Karl Kenneth Homuth: It is all very well for my hon. friend to say "Ha! Ha!" but there are certain parliamentary rules by which we must abide. I am not so sure but that if a vote of confidence in the government had been moved this morning I might have voted to sustain the government for the time being until the Prime Minister comes home so that we could really give him a defeat. But as it is I contend we are sitting unconstitutionally, and therefore this house should disband right now unless the government is prepared to call the Speaker to the chair and move a vote of confidence in the government.


An hon. MEMBER:: Did you sit in during the debate this morning?


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Yes, and I know more about the rules than you ever did.


William Ross Macdonald: After the vote was taken this morning the Acting Prime Minister moved that the Speaker do now leave the chair. I would refer hon. members to Beau-chesne's Parliamentary Rules and Forms, second edition, paragraph 489:
When an amendment has been adopted to the motion for the house to go into committee of supply or of ways and means, it may be forthwith moved that the house resolve itself into such committee immediately or on a future day.
That motion was made, that the house go into committee of supply immediately, and the motion .was carried with the unanimous vote of the house. Therefore I must rule that the committee is properly constituted.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: There was no vote at all as to whether the house should go into supply immediately. You said, Mr. Chairman, that the house went into committee by unanimous vote of the house. There was no such vote.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Yes.


Angus MacInnis: Mr. Chairman, this is the first time that I have heard that the government must resign if it meets an adverse vote in the house. It often happens in every British parliament that a government is defeated on a vote.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Tell me of one case where a government was defeated on a vote.


Mr. CROLL:: The British government was defeated on its educational bill at the last session.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: And moved a motion of confidence in itself.


Angus MacInnis: I think the usual procedure is that there is an understanding between the government and the opposition as to what will be considered a major vote of want of confidence and what will be considered just an adverse vote on a minor matter. I am quite sure there is nothing in the point, raised by the hon. member for Waterloo South.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I think your decision, Mr. Chairman, is correct. There was a motion moved by the Acting Prime Minister that the Speaker leave the chair, and that was carried unanimously. Therefore I contend that the committee is sitting constitutionally.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: On the point of order, Mr. Chairman, we have often seen questions raised in the house as to the meaning of certain clauses of a bill and heard a minister say: This is what I contend it means. Later the question comes before the courts and a lawyer will say to the court: This is what the minister said' the clause meant. The judge will say: I am1 not concerned with what the minister thought it meant, but with the words of the act itself. I say that under our parliamentary rules the government was defeated this morning, and it should have moved: a vote of confidence in itself, and if that was sustained it should then have moved to go into committee of supply.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: You have given your ruling, Mr. Chairman, that we should proceed with the business of the house. We have lost enough time to-day without losing any more.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Don't try to get away with it.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I am not trying to get away with anything. I am trying to act like a grown-up member of parliament. I do not know whether the hon. member was here or not this morning, but a motion was made and carried that the house go into committee of supply. It is now in committee of supply,

Supply-Mines and Resources
and the chairman has ruled the hon. member's point of order out of order. There has been no appeal from his decision, and I suggest that we now carry on the business of parliament.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Just a minute. I am not going to accept any such speech as that from the Acting Prime Minister. He says he is acting like a grown-up man. If he was a grown-up man he would not have done many things that he has done. He would not have refused the hon. member for Lake Centre many of the documents for which he has asked. He would not have refused to enforce the order in council at Hamilton. So do not let him stand up and say that he talks like a grown-up and that we are children. We were grown-up long before he was there.


William Ross Macdonald: I have heard the further representations that have been made, and I am satisfied that my ruling is correct-


Karl Kenneth Homuth: I am not.


William Ross Macdonald: -and that the committee has been properly constituted and can now proceed with its work.


Gordon Graydon: May I ask the Minister of Justice a question?


William Ross Macdonald: I do not want to prolong the debate. I will allow one question.


Gordon Graydon: In view of what has taken place here, if that was not a vote of confidence why did the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply, speaking on behalf of the government, call for a free vote?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I do not know that I am required to answer the hon. gentleman. I do not appear to have it here, but my attention was called to a precedent which I have been trying to turn up and which I have not yet put my hand upon, according to which it was determined years ago, in the time of Sir Wilfrid Laurier, that on a motion of tha't kind the government could, if it chose, make it a motion of confidence, but it could also if it chose allow a free expression of the opinions of hon. members on the matter concerned; and that was what was done this morning. There was a declaration by the Minister of Reconstruction that the government was not asking for support on party lines but was asking for an expression of the views of hon. members, and a vote was registered along those lines. Now I think the incident is closed. It was made a condition before the Minister of Reconstruction made that statement that there would be no objection from hon. members to a subsequent motion immediately to go in supply, and it was on the basis of that understanding that the vote was taken, that the

vote was registered, and the motion was made. Those who were present acquiesced in the understanding that had been arrived at; the house went into committee of supply and proceeded with its business, and I think it should continue to do so now.


William Ross Macdonald: It is not in my province, of course, to decide whether motions are motions of -want of confidence or not, but for the benefit of the committee may I read from Beauchesne, third edition, paragraph 475:
"Of course there are motions which by themselves carry censure, and such motions would necessarily imply want of confidence in the administration. But when the motion presented is such as this motion, affirming a general principle, not particularly calling question any practice or action of the government, it does not carry with it want of confidence, unless, indeed, it is made so by the will of the administration. If the administration cares to do so, it always has the power to declare that a motion moved in amendment to go into committee of supply is a motion of want of confidence; they have the power, and it follows they can take that course."
Now we will go on with the estimates of the Department of Mines and Resources, vote No. 132.


Hon. J. A. GLEN (Minister of Mines and Resources):: The hon. member for Regina City asked that he might be allowed, because he has to go away, to discuss the question of the trans-Canada highway, and although it does not properly come within this vote, but rather under item 170, I suggest that the hon. gentleman should have that opportunity.


Mr. PROBE:: It has been up a couple of times already this session.


James Allison Glen: It has been, but I promised to give the hon. member this opportunity fo discuss it.


John Oliver Probe: I wish to thank the Minister of Mines and Resources for having accorded me the privilege of speaking for a moment or two on this very important subject of the trans-Canada highway, under his departmental estimates. It has been the wish of various hon. members to secure information through questions placed on the order paper with respect to the present status of the highway which ostensibly links the west of Canada to the east, or would do if there were such a thing as a trans-Canada highway, and no department of government has taken a direct responsibility for such a highway, although, to questions I have asked, the Department of Mines and Resources was good enough to prepare a reply.
A few weeks ago in the course of debate the Minister of Agriculture made the statement in this house that it was possible to drive an automobile from eastern Canada to

Supply-Mines and Resources
western Canada remaining entirely on Canadian soil. With that bald statement of the possibility of moving a vehicle on purely Canadian soil there can be no disagreement. However, I have traversed some of the miles to which the Minister of Agriculture referred, and the road is definitely not one which we would call a first-class highway.
I want to place on the record at this time certain information which deals with the general subject of discussion, in the form of replies by the Department of Mines and Resources to questions I asked on July 29, 1946, with regard to the trans-Canada highway. The first question I wish to place on the record is this one:
What mileage of trans-Canada highway is now completed and hard-surfaced (a) in Canada,
(b)	in each of the provinces?
The answer to that question as given by the department was:
No definite standard or specification has been agreed upon or set for a trans-Canada highway, nor has the route of a trans-Canada highway been finally designated. There is a passable road east and west across Canada but it is in various stages- of completion as regards grading, gravelling and paving. While a considerable mileage is hard-surfaced much of it is below modern standards and will have to be rebuilt. The following information is the best available and is based on information recently supplied by the provinces.
You will note that the information was supplied to the minister by the provinces. In other words, he had no official knowledge of the statistics. The answer continues:
The mileages shown .as incomplete include road that is unpaved, or not graded to standard. It also includes approximately 220 miles of a trans-Canada route through Ontario along lake Superior, which is not yet built. An east and west road through Ontario has, however, been completed, but not all paved, on highways 17 and 11, via North Bay, Cochrane and Nipigon.
In answer to the question, what mileage is now completed and hard-surfaced in Canada, the departmental reply is, 1,997-5 miles. With reference to the mileage in each of the provinces, the following figures were given:
Miles
Prince Edward Island	 52
Nova Scotia	 262
New Brunswick	 272
Quebec	 386
Ontario	 427.6
Manitoba	 37
Saskatchewan	 40
Alberta	 95.7
British Columbia	 377
In addition, there are 48-2 miles of what might be termed trans-Canada highway in dominion government areas, various national parks along the proposed route.
I should like to place on Hansard, Mr. Chairman, w-ith your approval, a consolidation of the lengthy statement of the Department of Mines and Resources on the state of trans-
Canada construction, giving by provinces the total mileage, mileage complete, mileage incomplete, percentage complete, and percentage incomplete.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Agreed.
State of trans-Canada highway construction
Per
				Per-	cent
Total	Mileage	Mileage	centage	in-Province	mileage complete	incomplete complete	com-pleteP.E.I.	. 157	52	105	33	67N.S. .	. 315	262	53	83	17N.B. .	. 352	272	80	77	23Que. .	. 472	386	86	82	18Ont. .	.1.302-8	427-6	875-2	33	67Man. .	. 295	37	258	13	87Sa-sk. .	. 451	40	411	9	91Alta. .	302-7	95-7	207	31	69B.C. .	. 722	377	345	52	47Totals	4,369-5	1,949-3	2,420-2	45	55
It seems to me as a citizen of Canada preposterous that we now call ourselves a middle-class nation when we have as yet no trans-Canada system, or even a recognized route on which the trans-Canada highway system may be some day built. Part of the difficulty, I assume, arises from our unwieldy constitution, if I may use that term, under which the provincial governments have within their prerogative the right to build highways where they please, but the practice has from time to time developed that certain roads are subsidized out of federal government contributions to the provincial governments generally on a fifty-fifty basis. With the growth of the country, it is preposterous that in order to get highway traffic between the eastern section and the west it is necessary for us to go through the Untied States, their national government having seen fit to provide out of the national revenue the funds necessary to make first-class roads.
Various political parties have in the past promised before elections that they would obligate themselves to the construction of a trans-Canada highway system. I do not intend to go over past election promises, but I think it is the almost unanimous wish of the citizens of Canada that we have good highways in these modern times and that the federal government should now take the lead in this very important matter.
I wish to put on the record a resolution which has been forwarded to the dominion government from my own constituency and which sums up the attitude in that part of the country. It is from the Saskatchewan tourist convention held in Regina on May 21 last:
Supply-Mines and Resources

This conference resolves that, regardless of the ultimate outcome of the dominion-provincial conference, an agreement be immediately arranged between Saskatchewan and the federal government for the construction of at least two east-west and at least one north-south hardsurfaced highways in Saskatchewan on the basis of federal responsibility similar to that followed in the United States federal highway system; and further be it resolved that the above programme be commenced this year and completed as speedily as physically possible, not deferring until such time as works of this character are considered necessary as an unemployment measure.
In the course of the discussion this afternoon I am sure reference will be made to the tourist business of Canada. Tourist agencies are set up all across the country for the purpose of attracting visitors to the playgrounds of Canada, which are internationally famous. But unless you fly-and then you must be prepared to take planes equipped with pontoons instead of wheels, so that you land on a lake instead of in a field-you cannot get to the various park centres of the country. The tourist business is recognized as an immensely lucrative one, and it will thrive better, in my opinion, if we make it possible for tourists to bring their families by the means considered modern, namely, the automobile. For tourist reasons as well as for the linking up of east and west in Canada, I suggest that when we prate of Canadian unity we should afford some opportunity for its realization physically through the intermingling of the people. We could reasonably ask the Minister of Mines and Resources to see that his department, or to suggest that some other department, take immediate steps towards implementing a programme for a trans-Canada highway system.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I wish to support very strongly the remarks of the hon. member.
The CHAIRMAN; Order. We are considering item 132, and I do not think the remarks in this regard are relevant.


James Allison Glen: The hon. member (Mr. Probe) has to leave this afternoon and he asked me whether an opportunity could be given him to make his statement, having to do with a matter which does not come under this vote. I agreed, so that he might speak now.


Mr. MacNICOL:: Is the subject open for discussion now?


James Allison Glen: No. An opportunity will come later. I simply made a promise to the member for Regina City. I did not think there would be a general discussion now.


William Irvine: Would I be in order in bringing to the attention of the minister g protest

from the Yukon territory in connection with a matter which comes under the department? I shall be brief. I have discussed it with the minister and therefore I need say little beyond stating the actual problem.
Mr. GLEN; That would come under 151.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: On the item now before us, I find in checking over the figures that the department this year has an increase of $4,856,623. The minister is supposed to be Scotch, and the Scotch are supposed to be tight in the spending of money. I think the minister should give reasons for this increase.


James Allison Glen: This vote is of course reflected in other votes of the department. There have been increases in staff, and there is the cost of living to be considered, the question of salaries, and so on. During the war the department was not functioning in the manner it had done previously. The hon. member will find the details on page 134.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Is this mostly in staff and increases in salaries?


James Allison Glen: Not only that, but for the development of roads and the expansion of the activities of the department, national parks and various matters of the kind.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mines and Geology branch-
135. Mineral resources investigations, $555,000.
John Ritchie MacNicol: There is an increase as compared with last year and I am pleased to see it. This is one branch in which the department can spend money. Certainly if this country is to advance at all it will be necessary for us to open up every mineral field in Canada we can.
Since this vote calls for the opening up of mineral resources through investigations I should be glad to hear the minister tell us how many parties are going out this year and where they are going to investigate the mineral resources.


Mr. ARCHIBALD:: I should like to bring to the attention of the minister the matter which I mentioned last night when the estimates of the Department of Reconstruction were under discussion. There is need of a movement to investigate scarce materials. Last night I said that a survey of the Ground Hog coal fields in northern central British Columbia should be undertaken. We up in that north country would like to have that field properly surveyed so that we may be able to draw on these resources in the future.


James Allison Glen: The hon. member for Davenport asked a question with respect to the number of parties in the field. I have a long list here, but I think it should be dealt with when

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we are discussing item 139. Will the hon. member allow his question to stand until we reach that item?


John Ritchie MacNicol: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mines and Geology Branch-
1st. To provide for the fabrication, erection and equipping of a hydrogenation plant in the fuel research laboratories-engineering, design, etc., $50,000.
Clarence Gillis: I notice that there is a reduction of S720,000 in this vote. I look upon this particular service as an important one for the future. I think it is a mistake to reduce the vote by that amount. Will the minister explain the large decrease?


James Allison Glen: We had that vote before for the building of a hydrogenation plant, but after the war various opinions were obtained with regard to the processes then in vogue, and generally the picture became extremely confused. There was doubt in the mind of the department whether a hydrogenation plant would serve the purpose. We dealt with the matter by appointing a committee headed by Doctor Wallace of Queen's university, Kingston; Doctor Hopkins, vice-president of the Imperial Oil, and J. R. Donald, formerly director general of the chemicals division of the Department of Munitions and Supply. This committee held its sittings in Ottawa. It had evidence before it from experts who knew what the effect of a hydrogenation plant might be. They made a report to me which I hold in my hand, and which may be of interest to the committee. If the committee consents I shall place Doctor Wallace's report on Hansard.


Clarence Gillis: Is it lengthy?


James Allison Glen: Yes, about five pages.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It would be worth reading.


James Allison Glen: I think it would be better to place it on Hansard.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Agreed.
Pilot Hydrogenation Plant Committee Terms of Reference
1.	To review the petroleum resources of Canada. the United States and other countries with reference to future supplies for Canadian consumption. especially in the area of the prairie provinces;
2'. To review methods and progress in producing synthetic liquid fuels in Germany, Great Britain, the United States and other countries with especial reference to actions of governments to produce or stimulate production of these fuels by research or otherwise, and the reasons for such actions;
3.	To obtain information on the nature and extent of raw materials available in Canada for synthetic liquid fuel production and consider
whether hydrogenation as presently known is a fully developed and practical process that can be applied to Canadian raw materials without further research and pilot plant tests;
4.	To consider whether the production of synthetic liquid fuels in Canada is likely to be of future importance in the dominion's economy or for defence purposes and whether there is need for the dominion government to make the capital and operating expenditures necessary to carry on research and operation of a pilot hydrogenation plant to stimulate production;
5.	To report to the dominion government what action, if any, the committee considers the government should take with respect to research on hydrogenation and erection of a pilot hydrogenation plant, taking into account the following questions:
(a)	Whether a long period would elapse before it would become necessary to produce synthetic liquid fuels from Canadian coal;
(b)	Whether Canadian oil companies can be expected without government research to undertake utilization of heavy refinery residues for production of lighter petroleum products;
(c)	Whether the dominion government should stimulate production of motor fuels from Alberta bitumen by carrying on research into hydrogenation and by operation of a pilot hydrogenation plant;
(d)	Whether the processes and economies of hydrogenation have been sufficiently determined to be applicable to Canadian raw materials, such as coal, crude petroleum, refinery residues and Alberta bitumen, without it being necessary for the dominion government to assist industry by pilot plant operation;
(e)	Whether hydrogenation research is warranted and not too far removed from present-day Canadian problems to warrant dominion government expenditure.
Report of the Committee Appointed to Advise
on the Proposal to Construct a Hydrogenation Pilot Plant by the Department of Mines and Resources
The committee, having heard and considered the facts and data which were submitted and which accompany this report, are reporting as follows:
Firstly-referring directly to the terms of reference, the committee have the following comments:
1.	There is no world shortage of petroleum nor in supply of crude petroleum from the gulf coast regions of the United States or from South America. There is, however, a possible future shortage from the mid-continental regions of the United States, and conservation policies may limit future exports from the United States.
The crude oil required by eastern Canada and British Columbia, constitutes some 80-85 per cent of the total Canadian requirements, has been imported from the United States and South America. From the data given a larger proportion of the future imports for eastern ( anada may come from South America or other countries than the United States, but no shortage of supply is envisaged for some considerable time.
The prairie provinces' requirements are at present largely supplied from Alberta production which is, however, declining. Consequently new sources of crude oil for the prairie provinces are required.
2.	Production of synthetic liquid fuels from coal has been developed further in Germany than in any other country, in large measure due to a policy of national self-sufficiency. Great Britain has also established synthetic
Supply-Mines and Geology

liquid fuel production from coal. Both Germany and Great Britain used high pressure hydrofenation technique, although in Germany the iseher-Tropsch technique was also being used. On the data presented, cost of synthetic liquid fuels from coal in Great Britain and Germany exceeded cost of imported petroleum.
No commercial synthetic liquid fuel plants have been established in the United States, although both government and industry are undertaking large scale research in this field. United States research programmes into synthetic liquid fuels from coal are based on long-range planning rather than on immediate use, and both hydrogenation and the improved Fischer-Tropsch technique are being studied.
Processes for the production of synthetic liquid fuels from natural gas have been developed by industry in the United States, making use of the fluid catalyst technique and an improved Fischer-Tropsch catalyst, to a point where manufacture is claimed to be commercially feasible with low cost natural gas.
3.	The raw materials available in Canada are natural gas, natural bitumen from the oil sands of Alberta and coal. Plentiful supplies of coal suitable for hydrogenation are available in the prairie provinces and there are substantial coal reserves in the maritime provinces which are also suitable. The oil sands of Alberta are a large potential supply of bitumen. The natural gas reserves of Alberta and of western Saskatchewan are large and recent developments suggest that they may be sufficiently large to prove an important source of raw material for synthetic liquid fuel for the prairie provinces.
High pressure hydrogenation, as developed in Europe, is not directly applicable to natural gas. A high pressure hydrogenation plant, based on European technique, could probably be designed in Europe for treatment of either bitumen or Canadian coals, although, in either case, large scale tests in Europe would first be desirable. Alternatively, pilot plant tests are required in Canada or the United States.
An improved Fischer-Tropsch process for treatment of natural gas as already stated, has been developed in the United States and pilot plant operations have been established. It can be considered a feasible commercial operation.
4.	Production of synthetic liquid fuel in the prairie provinces at reasonable cost will be of importance to the prairie economy and, consequently, to Canadian economy within a comparatively short period unless new oil fields are discovered in the prairie provinces or in the adjoining states to the south.
Synthetic liquid fuel production in eastern Canada and on the Pacific coast appears unlikely to be of importance for some time to come.	.
5.	On the basis of the evidence and data submitted while the committee feel that further research and experimental pilot plant work should proceed in the field of synthetic liquid fuels, they also feel that further study must be undertaken before final plans can be developed which will ensure best results from the proposed expenditure.
Secondly-In addition to answering the terms of reference 1-5 specifically, the summary and conclusions of your committee are as follows: il. Synthetic liquid fuel research would primarily apply to the needs of the prairie provinces.
2.	The supply of crude petroleum products from the prairie provinces will in all probability prove inadequate for the prairie needs, as the reserves in known domestic fields will not meet the increasing demand.

3.	Sources of raw material for synthetii liquid, fuels in the prairie provinces are natural gas, bitumen from the Alberta oil sands and coal. In any research project which may be undertaken, the relative availability and value of these three resources of raw materials must be continuously kept in mind. Further study is needed on this comprehensive level.
4.	The synthesis of gas to liquid fuels is being actively investigated at the present time in connection with commercial installations. Costs are lower than for either coal or petroleum. Assuming adequate supplies, natural gas would appear to be the most suitable source of synthetic liquid fuels for the prairie provinces.
5.	Recent work in the United States applying to fluid catalyst technique is of such importance that it must receive further study and consideration before any final decision can be reached as to the type of pilot plant which might be installed for experimental work on bitumen or coal.
6.	The United States is planning large scale research on synthetic liquid fuels from coal by both direct hydrogenation and by Fischer-Tropsch technique. If close cooperation is maintained with this work, research in Canada might very properly be directed to the utilization of bitumen from the Alberta oil sands.
7.	Inasmuch as the evidence submitted indicates that cost of separating the bitumen from the oil sand is at present too high for economic utilization and inasmuch as separation and processing must be dealt with together, further research of the relative value of bitumen as compared with coal as a raw material should be undertaken before a major programme is instituted.
8.	The considerations in favour of establishing an experimental pilot plant in the west near the source of raw material and where future commercial operations might be undertaken should be again carefully reviewed before a decision as to location is finally reached. Integration of the pilot plant operations with the existing government synthetic gas ammonia plant at Calgary should also receive the most careful consideration.
9.	It is the opinion of your committee that further study must be given to the problem of synthetic liquid fuel research as a whole before final plans are initiated: and that it will take at least six months to obtain the necessary information dealing with raw materials. processes and United States research programmes. In this connection your committee would point out that, even by making use of existing plans, it would probably take about two years to complete designs, let contracts and erect a large scale pilot plant. In the further studies that are. in your committee's opinion, required, the cooperation of industry should be secured in order that duplication of effort may be avoided and the most suitable research plan and pilot plant may be developed.
10.	Having in mind the basic importance to Canadians of fuel problems in general and the fact that research work in the field of synthetic liquid fuels is closely related to and common to other fuel problems, your committee recommend the establishment of a fuel research board representative of the Department of Mines and Resources, the national research council, the research council of Alberta, and private industry, which should direct an overall programme of fuel research. Synthetic liquid fuel is one of the more urgent problems to be dealt with.
11.	The members of the committee wish to reoord their warm appreciation of the able presentations by officers of the department and by officials from the United States and from

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private industry in Canada. The information which they supplied is given in full in the typescript which accompanies this report.
Signed:	Robert C. Wallace
J. R. Donald
March 12, 1046.	Oliver B. Hopkins.
It is the intention of the department to implement that recommendation and to make the appointment of a fuel research board for this purpose. In view of the further study that the committee considered should precede the development of plans for a synthetic liquid fuel pilot plant, the laboratory building item previously in the estimates of the Department of Public Works has been dropped for the present. Of the vote of $770,000 which stood in the mines and geology branch estimates for equipping of the plant, a revote of only $50,000 is required in order to maintain and preserve what is already in the hands of the department. This will be used for remodelling the present small scale equipment so that it can be employed for experimental work. I can tell the hon. gentleman that we are very seriously concerned. I did not want to spend $770,000 when it was not confirmed that we would receive any value from it afterwards. In the light of the evidence which was given before the committee and the recommendations they made, we thought we would defer the spending of money until we were sure that we would get the results from it. As I say, we intend to confirm that with the fuel research board and pursue the matter further and develop it the best we can in the light of actual circumstances which we now know since the war.


Clarence Gillis: I notice that it is a hydrogenation plant.


James Allison Glen: Yes.


Clarence Gillis: Has the department given any consideration to the method of processing fuel known as low temperature carbonization?


James Allison Glen: Yes; I am informed that studies of that have been made.


Clarence Gillis: The department is not concentrating completely on the hydrogenation process?


James Allison Glen: It will be found from the discussion before the committee to which I referred that all phases of fuel problems were discussed. We are not directing our activities solely to the one process of hydrogenation. We shall get the best we can before spending money, in order that we shall have something worth while in the end.


Clarence Gillis: Personally I am in favour of the low temperature process. I am not going to go into that at any length at the moment,
but I believe Canadian fuels are adaptable to the low temperature carbonization process. It is workable. One can get a practical demonstration of it in Burlington, Ontario. A man by the name of Caunt has a pilot plant there. He has been in Ottawa for many years trying to sell the idea. Personally I am sold on it, I have read considerably on it. Germany had a method of processing fuels, and it is used to a great extent in the old country. If we are to be successful in fuel research, low temperature carbonization is the method which should be applied to Canadian fuels. When the board is set up I hope the minister will see to it that due consideration is given to the low temperature process.


James Allison Glen: Yes.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Perhaps I am one who was partly responsible for the first vote for a hydrogenation vote being placed in the estimates. At that time the question was the probable advantage of having a hydrogenation plant to extract the oil from the tar sands of northern Alberta, and also to apply the same process to Nova Scotia coal to extract oil therefrom. The war was on at the time, and hon. members will remember that there was very little oil in the country. A number of people believe that the hydrogenation method used in Germany which gave perfect satisfaction could be used in this country. I remember saying on one or two occasions that when the war ended'-


James Allison Glen: The hon. member is referring to the Fischer-Tropsch process.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Yes. I remember saying on one or two occasions that we should make an effo-t to obtain from Germany one of their hydrogenation plants, because they were producing 300 million barrels of oil a year out of coal. If they could do it, we can do it. Has the minister any information as to the probability of Canada obtaining one of the German hydrogenation plants as part of our portion of what we should get out of the war?


James Allison Glen: Doctor Warren of the department was sent to Germany and he made a study of these matters and brought it before the committee of which I have already spoken. It was one of the subjects of discussion. In the light of that discussion and of other evidence that was given, we thought it best that research should be made not only in connection with that process but in connection with all forms of synthetic fuel processes.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Did Doctor Warren and the party he was associated with investigate hydrogenation processes in the United States?


James Allison Glen: Yes, in the United States as well.

Supply-Mines and Geology


John Horne Blackmore: How long will it be before a report can be expected from this committee in order that we may hope to have some action in Canada?


James Allison Glen: The committee is just in the course of being set up, and I could not state any length of time in which we could expect to have a report. It is a very involved matter and expert knowledge is required. We want to be sure that what we are doing is the correct and proper thing to do.


John Horne Blackmore: I should like to express approbation of the minister's action in setting up this committee. May I urge that a good deal of expedition be shown so that we shall not be too long in getting at this matter. I believe this is of great importance in connection with our national existence. We must try to work out some means of processing coal and getting fuel into Ontario and Quebec. I
should like to see action taken as speedily as possible.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mines and Geology branch-
139. Geological surveys, $500,000.
Mr. ADAMSON:: How many geological surveying parties are out, and just where are they working?


James Allison Glen: I have a long statement here which I could put on Hansard if it would satisfy the hon. gentleman.


Agar Rodney Adamson: It would.


James Allison Glen: This gives the names of the provinces and the territories, the particular area, district and the name of the officer in [DOT]charge.


Agar Rodney Adamson: That would suit the case. I think this matter should be made public, and that is the best way of doing it.


James Allison Glen: The statement follows:



GEOLOGICAL SURVEY FIELD PROGRAMME, 1946-47

[Stage Direction]
Province or territory	No. of parties	Area or district	Minerals sought	Officer in chargeNorthwest Territories.	6	C. S. Lord Y. O. Fortier M. Feniak R. E. Folinsbee M. S. Stanton
Rare Element Investigation		
				
				
		Yellowknife			
	3			H. S. Bostock E. D. Kindle. W. E. Cockfield and J. G. Fyles H. M. A. Rice
				
		Whitehorse			
	6			
				
				K. C. McTaggart A. F. Buckham E. F. Roots J. E. Armstrong and J. W. Hoadley E. J. W. Irish
		Nanaimo-Comox		Coal		
				
				
	8			
		Moberley Creek			
		Chinook & Grayling Creek			
		Callum Gap and Langford			R. J. W. Douglas
		Stratigraphic studies general....		
			Ground Water Supply	 Vertebrate collections relating to petroleum.	J. S. Stewart and B. A. Latour C. M. Sternberg J. S. Wonfor
				
		Taber			
	3			A. M. Christie J. B. Mawdsley R. T. D. Wickenden J. M. Harrison C. H. Stockwell and M. W. Frarey E. C. Halstead J. F. Caley R. Deane G. W. H. Norman
		Lake Athabaska			
				
	3			
		Grass River			
		Souris			
	2			
		Lake Simcoe			
	6			
		Beauchastel and D&ssarat Tps..		
		LaCorne and Piedmont			L. P. Tremblay H. C. Cooke
		Coaticook			
				
				M. E. Wilson
New Brunswick....	1			
	2			L. J. Weeks H. L. Cameron
				
				
	40			
[Stage Direction]
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John Ritchie MacNicol: Would the minister care to make a brief statement as to the result of the geological investigation east of the Yellowknife toward Artillery lake?


James Allison Glen: I have no information with regard to the district east of the Yellowknife, but there are many prospectors going into the Yellowknife now, and indications are that the area toward the east is a fertile field for further investigation and development. We have not dealt as yet with the area to the east of Yellowknife, because we have been concentrating mostly on the Yellowknife area itself. I think there is a party in there now.


John Ritchie MacNicol: As far as Artillery lake?


James Allison Glen: I do not know the place where it is, but I do know it is east of the Yellowknife and toward the district my hon. friend has in mind. We have no data at the moment on which to arrive at any conclusions as to what may be the possibilities of that particular territory, and I presume we will not have for some time to come. As I say, there are many prospectors in there drilling and doing other work and they feel that this is a large favourable field for mineral deposits.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Alines and Geologv branch-
M/l. Drafting and map reproduction, $150,000.
John Ritchie MacNicol: I am in favour of the increase in this vote. This branch of the department is one that we all can be proud of, and I suggest that hon. members visit this branch. If they do they will see map-reproducing instruments, as good as any in the world, which have been made by young Canadians in that branch. They are doing a wonderful job, and I made up my mind that at the first opportunity I would compliment the department upon having the staff it has in the drafting and map reproduction branch.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mines and Geology branch-
11,2. National Museum of Canada, $72,000.
Mr. CAMPBELL:: I should like to direct the attention of the government to a museum which I think is unique in the history of museums in this country. It was started by a group of local people in Battleford in an effort to preserve an old Northwest Mounted Police barracks originally built in 1876 and used until about 1926 by the Northwest Mounted Police. Since then they have not been in use and had started to decay. A group of patriotic citizens who were interested in preserving historic sites in Saskatchewan and 63260-343
through the west got together and decided that they would rebuild this old fort and make it a memorial and museum. This group is composed of citizens from all walks of life and it is non-political in character. The members are interested in saving relics of the early days of western Canada. I should like to give the names of some of these prominent men. Under administration there is the honorary president, Honourable J. L. Phelps; president, A. D. Connon; vice-president, Frank Swon, and secretary-treasurer, Campbell Innes. I might say that Mr. Innes is a school inspector and is one of the leading spirits in this idea. The members are divided up into a number of committees which look after the direction of this project. In the buildings and palisade committee are II. C. Adams, Battleford; Paul Prince, Battleford and Chas. Tubb, North Battleford. Another committee looks after the grounds, which comprise about forty acres situated on a plateau in the form of a "V". It overlooks a large part of the country. Judge Bence, of Battleford, is in charge of the grounds. They intend to make those grounds an attraction for the public. Recreation is under Doctor J. T. Cairns, of North Battleford. At the head of the painting and films division is Mr. R. Lindemere of North Battleford. He is a painter, and makes a specialty of painting Indian scenes. In charge of education and policy is Judge R. B. Mills of North Battleford. In charge of the library is Canon
H.	E. Hives, Battleford; and Miss P. M. Wesson is in charge of western drama. These names give some idea of the type of people who are supporting this plan. Some of those buildings have been torn down and used to fit up some of the other buildings. The palisade which was built around the original fort is to be rebuilt, using the old fashioned gates to match the palisade which was there in those early days.
To give some idea of their aims I shall read part of a letter which they have been sending out.
In the year 1876 the Battleford mounted police post was established by Colonel James Walker and linked up with such posts as MacLeod, Ft. Walsh, Calgary, Edmonton, Carlton and Swan river. This force served the north-west council 1878-1881 at Battleford. It served the Department of Indian Affairs. From this point its force went forth to battle at Duck lake. Carlton, Cutknife, Fort Pitt and Frenchman's Butte. Later, during the settlement days, it became a stabilizing and encouraging factor in our civilization. This locality is the home of the Cree Indian. In the early days it successfully held back the Blackfoot. There are also tribes at Saulteaux, Assiniboine and Sioux, with their long history and cultural development. The Indian agency office is still located here. The little red brick building which, served as an office is still standing on the north west council hill. Such early explorers as MeGilli-

Supply-Mines and Geology

vray Pink, Cocking, Frobisher, Pond, Henry, Pangman, Umfreville, Thompson and Harmon passed up the North Saskatchewan and crossed to the Beaver river and Isle a la Crosse to Churchill. Their fur post sites are still to be seen. It has been a pleasure to search for these and have professor A. S. Morton come up from Saskatoon and cheek them over. These posts should be rebuilt or remarked, and {lie thrilling story of early fur days retold: Manchester House, Pine Island Post, Eagle Hills Post, Turtle Post, Buckingham House. Ihe rich fur and pemmican trade of the Hudson's Bay and North-West Company was centred in this part of the Saskatchewan river and at Green lake, Isle 5 la Crosse, Prince Albert and Edmonton. As our young citizens grew up in the midst of this rich romantic and sacrificial story tliev too caught the spirit of enterprise. Such localities gave their best youth to the first and second world wars when the call came.
Peace has come again to our beloved Canada. A new youth is re-examining our national life. It asks, "How can harmony, brotherhood and culture be advanced and what shall we save in a new civilization?" Shall we study the social and economic factors of our localities in such a way to engender love for nobler purposes and make the land blossom and sing? It is a land with a tradition and a promise. What shall be done with these historic spots? Once more we have asked the government to help. The Saskatchewan government consented to renovate the famous mounted police barracks. This cluster of some dozen buildings has been standing idle since 1923. The superintendent's house, tlie inspector's house, the gaol, the hospital. stable and mess room are to be saved.
It was originally intended to take down the mess room. But they have been receiving so many relics and so many things they would like to save that it 'has now been decided to try to save this building so that it may be used as a museum. My purpose in rising this afternoon is to ask the government to make a small grant toward having a museum in that building. The letter continues:
The renovation work commenced in August 1945. Two of the main buildings are ready for use. Our citizens suggested a mounted police memorial and Indian museum. The government accepted this plan provided citizens would furnish and equip this memorial and museum. The challenge was accepted. Men and women of training and ability offered to help. plan, equip and interest their fellow citizens. Our plans are well advanced. Our letterhead shows the divisions and the names of chiefs. It is being added to continually. Citizens are being asked to furnish the necessary funds. This endowment fund will be used to " furnish and operate this memorial and museum.
I could go on to tell more about the project, but I do not wish to take up too much time. I hope that the government will take an interest in this museum, because as I said at the outset, it is unique; there is nothing to match it in Canada. It would be a shame if these old historic forts were allowed to go to rack and ruin and finally disappear. If we can save them and make use of them in a cultural and educational way I am sure it will be worth while. If the minister will see that

there is something placed in the estimates, only one or two thousand dollars to help finish the project, it will be deeply appreciated by the people in that district.


James Allison Glen: The hon. member has already spoken to me about this. I shall place this matter before the historic sites committee, because it would come under their control.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I would ask the minister and his officials to consider whether the time has not arrived when we should have a large national museum here in Ottawa. Many precious materials found throughout the country, which can be traced to pioneer days, are now being lost. Large quantities of new materials, on the other hand, are being discovered. A national museum in Ottawa would house those priceless relics. Only to-day I was talking to a former employee' of the government about communications instruments. They comprise only one group. There are multitudes of other types of materials; and we should have all these early Canadian relics of one kind or another displayed in the national capital.
As we get along further I should like to see a building of that kind, and plans could be organized now. One such building is to be seen in Washington. There they have a national museum to display the vast relic treasures of their country. In Canada much of this is being lost because of the lack of an appropriate place in which to put it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mines and Geology branch-
538. Aerial photography, $1,350,000.
John Ritchie MacNicol: The department should receive commendation for its aerial photography. That branch is doing a marvellous work. I met departmental photographers in the far north, and I have reason to know that they are doing wonderful work. The maps which trace out what they have seen from the air are to be seen in the old. map building on Dalhousie street. It is apparent to the department and to the country what these men have done from the time they began to take aerial pictures.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mines and Geology branch-
51/0. Maintenance of plant of Abasand Oils Limited, $50,000.	.
John Ritchie MacNicol: Is the minister going to make a statement on this item?


James Allison Glen: The hon. gentleman has spoken to me about this project, in which he has been very much interested for many years. The hon. member for Athabaska is also much in-

Supply-Mines and Geology
terested. I reviewed the project last year. The government undertook as a war emergency project to finance rehabilitation of the plant of Abasand Oils Limited, near Fort McMurray, Alberta, and to carry out pilot plant operations on the mining and treatment of bituminous sands. Test runs of the renovated separation plant commenced in June, 1944, and a considerable amount of information was gained regarding the process which the Abasand Company had used prior to the agreement with the government, namely, the McClave hot-water process of separating bitumen from the sands. Early in 1945 a new method of recovering the bitumen was being developed and appeared to have definite advantages, as separation was performed at room temperature with a very considerable economy in heat consumption. Equipment installed for this new process was about to be brought into operation when the separation plant, workshops and warehouse were destroyed by fire on June 16, 1945.
In my review of the project I pointed out that although the cost data obtained could not be regarded as conclusive the approximate estimates indicated that commercial utilization of the sands depended not only on securing much lower costs of mining and treating the sands, but upon processing the extracted bitumen so as to produce a large proportion of the high-priced petroleum products. A large scale refinery, of the order of 10,000' barrels a day capacity and employing either a catalytic cracking or hydrogenation process, was seen as necessary for low cost operation.
The government entered upon the project under the stress of a wartime emergency requiring every effort to be put forward to obtain oil supplies. Abasand Oils Limited transfererd its properties, mining rights and process rights to the government for the sum of SI under the agreement, which is to terminate 180 days after the date of proclamation by the government that the state of war has ceased. The deferred settlement provisions of the agreement give the government the right to pay Abasand Oils Limited for its properties, mining rights and processes as existing when the agreement was entered into. If the government does not wish to exercise its option the company has the right to reassume the titles to its properties and mining rights and processes, and to assume ownership of the government's investment in plant, by making suitable settlement with the government for its expenditure. If neither party desires to exercise its option, the agreement contains provision 63260-343J
for disposing of the plant and rights and for apportionment of the proceeds as the respective interests may appear.
The government did not purchase the ownership or stock of Abasand Oils Limited. Under the agreement the company placed its-titles in the hands of the government and it entered into the position of being an agent, or contractor in expending government moneys, through its board of directors, on improving the plant and operating it to develop tar sands-treatment processes. The company is still a private corporation fully entitled, if the government does not wish to pay for its assets, to recover its business.
Good reason would not seem to exist for the dominion government remaining in an oil enterprise in peace time. The government, therefore, has not proceeded with financing the rebuilding of the separation plant destroyed in the fire, although the board of directors have desired to rebuild and install the new separation process for operations at an approximate capacity of 600 tons of sand per day. The proposal submitted by the board was that the government should provide $700,000 for rebuilding and operation of the plant for one year and that moneys recovered from fire insurance should be applied towards this proposed expenditure. The board maintained that it was necessary to have operations extend over a period of one year in all types of weather in order to demonstrate that a successful separation process has been achieved and that without such a demonstration by the pilot plant the investment by private enterprise of many millions of dollars for establishment of a large-scale refinery could not be expected. The board also expressed the view that abandonment of the project by the government would not only delay development of the tar sands resource but would destroy any hope of salvaging the investment not only of the government but of private enterprise. Abasand Oils has stated that its investment in plant and rights, before the government entered into the agreement, amounted to well over a million dollars.
The position of the Abasand project is that out of allotments of $2,300,000 from war appropriation and war and demobilization appropriations in the fiscal years 1943-44, 1944-45 and 1945-46, expenditures of $1,949,077.52 had been made to March 31, 1946, and revenues of $28,784.99 had been received and deposited in the consolidated revenue fund. The net expenditure to the end of the last fiscal year was, therefore, $1,920,292.53. Since the end of the fiscal year there has been
Supply-Mines and Geology

received and deposited in the consolidated revenue fund proceeds of insurance amounting to $374,676.55. After credit of the insurance proceeds the net outlay of government on this project to March 31, 1946, has been *1,545,615.98. By means of this expenditure the government has assisted the company in developing mining methods and in the development of a partly-proven new separation process, and has a substantial investment in a rebuilt refinery, power plant, and office and townsite buildings.
With the close of hostilities the wartime emergency in which the Abasand. project had its inception came to an end. Consequently, negotiations are now being carried on with the Abasand board of directors for the return of the company's mining rights and titles on a basis which would give the government a reasonable and equitable eventual settlement for its investment if future operations should prove successful. In these negotiations full cognizance must be taken of the company's contractual rights under the agreement and of its right to a part of the insurance proceeds representing original company property destroyed in the fire.
Pending the conclusion of an equitable arrangement with Abasand Oils Limited the government continues to hold the titles and to be responsible for the properties and rights. Because of the obligation incumbent upon the government until the titles and rights are returned it has been necessary that the estimates contain a provision of $50,000 for maintenance of the plant.
Subsequent to that, drilling took place in the Abasand fields which showed that there was liquid bitumen there which gave hopes that there might be some degree of success in operating these sands, and a request was made of the department that we should not now discontinue drilling operations because there were favourable prospects in several of the holes which had been drilled. If we had stopped operations then and subsequently had attempted to drill the sands again, our staff and equipment by that time might have disappeared. The company therefore proposed and we accepted that, rather than drop the project, we would explore the possibilities of liquid bitumen in these fields, which if it was in sufficient quantities might be a good commercial prospect. Accordingly, in the next item, 541, I am asking for a sum of money for drilling in these sands. If that is successful, and the company seems to be hopeful that it will be, I may say bluntly that we expect that this will be the last operation the government will undertake in these fields.
We are drilling now. Some reports though not all, have been received. There is, if not a considerable hope, certainly a degree of hope that they may find there liquid bitumen which, if in sufficient quantities, would probably make this a prosperous commercial field. When that $100,000 which has been asked for is expended the results will be given to the company, and they are hopeful that they can carry on and expend their own money with advantage. They spent about a million dollars on the project before the government entered into it, and they are willing to take the chance of going ahead and operating as a company, and the government will then step out of the picture. I thought the committee ought to be informed of this. The company has been the subject of a good deal of comment and many optimistic opinions have been expressed. I am sure that what has been done by the government in exploring this area will be of benefit; and we feel that, having done this, they can take over. In the meantime we will transfer the titles of the properties to them, and pay to them a portion of the insurance money which we now hold and to which they may be entitled, the money to be paid over when the settlements are being made.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Owing to the lateness of the session I shall speak very briefly. I should like to go into the whole story, but not now. When the estimates of the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply were before the house I promised to go into the matter, but it is now too late.
The whole business connected with the government operation of the Abasand is a tragedy of the first water. I am happy to hear that the government is going to get out of it, apart from continuing to drill the sands to ascertain if there is oil or rich bitumen there-. With that decision I am in hearty agreement; it is related to vote 141. The minister knows that I have been up to that plant on several different occasions. He has said that definite results have been obtained. As far as I know from those on the job there are no worthwhile results; no definite results have been obtained; and this is borne out by one of the minister's last statements in reference to the new plant which was burned down before definite results were obtained after it was brought into operation. That is true. The establishment was burnt down almost on the day it commenced operation. That was the third plant erected up there. It is an evidence of the impossibility of trying to operate any commercial enterprise from three or four thousand miles away^that is, from Ottawa. I am not finding fault with anyone in Ottawa who had to do wdth it.

Supply-Mines and Geology
Those here did their best, but they could not be up there and in Ottawa at the same time. I for one am very glad to know that the government is getting out of it and will give a private company a chance to take it over and, if they wish to do so, build a new plant; that is what is required.
As the minister has said, the country itself has already put up a net amount of $1,545,000, after deduction of insurance from the gross amount, and that is enough for us to put into it, outside of the drilling of the sands. My recommendation would be, since the government have all the equipment up there and have contractors on the job, that they continue to drill over the area which is now being drilled over to prove the richness of the deposits, near Steep Bank river. The Alberta government took over the former Fitzgerald plant, about forty miles down the river from Fort McMurray. There they have obtained very good results. When I was last in Edmonton I went to the university to see their new process, from which they expected to obtain better results; but the tar sands are not something to be guessed at. I do not for a minute say that no one has a process. If I get away from here in time I intend to visit a gentleman whose name was mentioned, Mr. McClave, who is now engaged in California taking oil out of the tar sands. I am thoroughly conversant with his process, and, contrary to what the minister read, the McClave process is a good one. I have that from men who have been in the tar sand business for many years. But no one can tell the worth of the process on which the government has spent so much money. I am not going into that matter because it is past and gone. As I have said, I am so pleased to hear the minister say that the government are getting out of it, but that they are going to continue drilling down the Athabaska river near Steep Bank river, which is a small river that flows in on the right bank of the Athabaska river, that I shall refrain from pursuing any further this Abasand business at present and am prepared as far as I am concerned to let these items go through.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mines and Geology branch-
51,5. Investigations of radio-active ores, $60,000.
Agar Rodney Adamson: What is the procedure if a prospector in the normal course of prospecting discovers a deposit of radio-active material? There are, Mr. Chairman, a number of materials outside the uranium group with radio-active properties. Thorium is one; there are many others. What does the government do? Does the government take steps to find these deposits, and what does
it do when a radio-active deposit is indicated? I ask this because I feel that we are not doing enough for the discovery and development of radio-active deposits. I should like to know and I think the country would like to know the policy and the machinery which the government has set up.


James Allison Glen: The matter to which the hon. gentleman refers is under the control of a committee, I am informed, which deals with it under statutory authority. He will know generally, as I do, the provision under which uranium discovered within Canada belongs to and is under the control of that committee; no one can deal with the material except under the control, I would imagine, of the Department of External Affairs,


Agar Rodney Adamson: My question really is this. A deposit of radio-active material is discovered: what happens? Does the government step in and say, "We will buy this from you"? "We will prohibit you from developing it"? Or, "We will develop it ourselves"? Or does it say, "We will allow you to develop it and will control the end product"?


James Allison Glen: I am informed that the regulations relating to the question asked by the hon. gentleman have not yet been completed, that they are still being considered under the atomic energy board. Until they arrive at a decision I cannot give any information.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mines and Geology branch-
51,5. Investigations in mineral economics, $30,000.
John Horne Blackmore: What is the purpose of these investigations in mineral economics, and what has been achieved by them in the past? Why is it considered worth while to spend money on them? It is not easy for an ordinary member to get a comprehension of what is involved.


James Allison Glen: I might give a brief explanation of the vote. The chaotic conditions in which the world finds itself at the close of world war II necessitate continuous investigation of the economic effect these conditions are likely to have on Canada's, mining, metallurgical and allied chemical industries.
In the immediate post-war period and for some time afterward, many problems will confront these industries; those that will be paramount will be economic, not technological. Consequently many studies must be made in anticipation of problems that bear upon home and foreign markets for Canadian products, Canada's mineral position relative

Supply-Mines and Geology

to that of other countries, Canada's mineral reserves and mineral deficiencies, operating costs, cartels, competitive products, subsidies, new uses for minerals and mineral products, et cetera. More valuable assistance could, too, with this increase in activities. be given to the departments of Finance and National Revenue in problems of the character concerning which they ordinarily solicit the help of the mines and geology branch.
Because the existing staff of the division of economics could satisfactorily handle only a relatively small percentage of the problems enumerated above, the cabinet committee on reconstruction, on the recommendation of the Minister of Reconstruction, approved on May 18, 1945, a commencement of this work, and on July 23, 1945, treasury board approved a temporary establishment of eight positions. Four of these positions have been filled, and the remainder will be filled as quickly as suitable appointees become available.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mines and Geology branch-
922[DOT] To provide for investigations of petroliferous deposits and potential petroliferous areas in Canada-further amount required, $100,000.
James Allison Glen: This is the $100,000 that is now being used in the drilling of the tar sands in addition to the $50,000 in the main estimates.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Is the minister sure that the $150,000 can be used, or has it been already spent?


James Allison Glen: I am not anxious to have it spent unless it is absolutely necessary. If the results from drilling are such as to justify the company taking over and the government dropping out, we will stop and save as much money as we can. But we will drill as much of the property as is necessary.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The information I had from a gentleman in the department in whom I have every confidence is that in a number of these drillings down the Athabaska river in the vicinity of Steep Bank river have been found rich deposits of almost pure bitumen.


James Allison Glen: That is the area they are trying to prove.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It is apparently a reservoir of oil or bitumen. If that is so it is worth while.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Lands, Parks and Forest branch-
US. Branch administration, $25,150.
Mr. ZAPLITNY:: There are a number of questions I want to ask under this head, and
(Mr. Glen.]
perhaps I might start with the parks. What measures are being taken to prevent and control fires in the national parks? I have a newspaper clipping which came to me recently from the Dauphin Herald in which it is stated that from 1935 to 1944 over $780,000 in value was lost by fires in the national parks. There were 653 fires which burned out 432,574 acres, destroying 84,000 board feet of lumber and 495,000 cords of wood. Reference is made also to loss of animal and bird life.


James Allison Glen: That will come more appropriately under 158.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: I will wait until we reach that item then. The next question has to do with timber limits in the national parks. Some are listed as timber licences and some as timber permits. I have been looking through the regulations and perhaps the minister can tell us in a general way what is the chief difference between the licence and the permit in the matter of timber limits.


James Allison Glen: The licence is issued for a
berth; permits are issued for the individual. I think that is the distinction between a licence and a permit.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: In other words, a licensee is a person or a company who applies for a berth?


James Allison Glen: Yes.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: Is a licensee and a permit holder treated in the same way in the matter of sale of their products? The licensee may sell the products of his mill to retail merchants in a wholesale way, or may retail it to his customers. Is a permit holder permitted to sell his lumber in the same way, or is there any restriction on the way in which he must dispose of his lumber?


James Allison Glen: The licensee can sell his products in the retail and wholesale trade, as the hon. gentleman has decribed, but not the permit holder. He cannot sell; it is for himself only.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: What is the maximum size of a timber berth which a licensee can hold and what is the size which a permit holder can hold?


James Allison Glen: No timber berth licences are now being given in any of the national parks; that is a thing of the past, the policy which was in effect when the park was created, and we do not propose to continue it. The timber in the parks is subject to the regulations of the parks and is dealt with from the parks point of view, not from the point of view of any licensee.

Supply-Lands and Parks


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: Under present conditions there are still a number of limits which are held by licensees within the parks?


James Allison Glen: Yes.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: Is there any limit on the maximum size of the berth which has been obtained? Is it limited to a certain number of square miles or not?


James Allison Glen: There is no limit. These were licences that were given many years ago.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: I understand that. Are the regulations, a copy of which I received from the minister's department, which were reprinted in July, 1929, still in force in connection with licensees and permit holders?


James Allison Glen: There has been no change
made in the timber berth licences. Some regulations have been made with regard to the conduct of the individual working the berth.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: Does that mean that the fees which are charged licensees and permit holders are the same now as are indicated in the regulations of 1929?


James Allison Glen: Is my hon. friend asking about the rate of dues?


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: Yes.


James Allison Glen: No change in the rate of dues on timber berths.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: Do the same rates apply to timber berths within Indian reserves, or do they come under a different set of regulations?


James Allison Glen: A different management and a different set of regulations.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: In connection with fees and berths, I took the matter up last year- perhaps the minister will remember it-as it applied to Riding Mountain national park, in which we have a common interest since it is situated in the minister's constituency and right next to mine. At that time I drew attention to the timber berth owned by the Northern Trust Company, and attempted to find out more about it, but we were not able to come to much of a conclusion. Since that time I have been asking for a number of returns, as the minister may know, and I have gathered some information. There are a number of things which I should like to understand at this time. First of all in my opinion the fees which have been charged have not been very provident from the point of view of the treasury. The fees for lumber have been $1 a thousand. I realize that the company has been holding this limit for a long time. It is no longer the policy, of the government to sell berths in that way. From
the returns I have received I have worked out a simple calculation which shows that since 1889, which appears to be the first date on which this timber limit was held, the company has taken out 13,562,000 feet of lumber, exclusive of other timber products. According to the regulations they pay 81 a thousand which would amount to $13,562-I am leaving the other things aside for a moment, because the fees differ. In another return which I asked for last year it was indicated that a Mr. DeWitt of Sandy Lake took a permit in 1941-42 for 1,253,482 feet of lumber for which he paid $4.75 a thousand. I realize that there is some difference between a permit holder and a licensee in the other fees they have to pay, royalties and so on. But in the matter of lumber alone the difference of price between $1 and $4.75 is substantial. I have worked out some rough figures which show that had the trust company had to pay the same amount as this private individual had to pay in 1941-42, over that period of time they would have paid $64,419 instead of $13,562, which leaves a potential loss to the government of over $50,000. Some of that will be recovered in ground rents, royalties, and so on, but the net loss will still be a great deal of money. I cannot see the justification for allowing these timber limits to continue, with the price of lumber what it is to-day, regardless of what the policy used to be.
Here is a company which evidently has something of a monopoly in that park, and which is able to get its lumber at $1 a thousand, while other people who come in and1 bid for lumber, if they are successful in getting a permit, will have to pay up to $4.75 to get the same kind of lumber. While I am on this subject I should like to say that I took a little time to investigate this limit. I think my figures are correct, because I received them from the foreman of the saw mill. I believe the minister is familiar with the mill about which I am speaking. In December of last year the price of rough lumber at the mill ranged from $41 to $49 wholesale. That was the price if you took it away; if it was delivered there would be an additional charge. This is the same lumber which they were obtaining for $1 a thousand.
In addition I found that farmers who obtained a permit to cut logs in that limit were obliged to bring their logs to that saw mill, since it was the only one operating in there- as I say, it was a monopoly-and they were practically forced-because there was no other arrangement that I could learn about-to accept half the lumber cut from the logs which they brought to the mil'. In other words, if
Supply-Lands and Parks

logs were cut which would yield 2,000 feet of lumber, you would get only 1,000; the saw mill would get the other 1,000 as their part of the bargain. When lumber was selling at the mill at as high as $49 a thousand, that was a substantial amount to take from the farmer in return for the sawing of his product.
I also found that the farmer did not have much choice in the quality of lumber which he got, because at the time he brought his logs in to the saw mill there was no good lumber to take. There was no sawing going on at the time. They just piled up his logs, and he had the choice of either getting his lumber from the pile or waiting or coming back at the time of the sawing season. In many cases farmers living twenty-five, thirty or even fifty miles away from a mill will take their half by going to the lumber pile and taking what is there. I inspected a pile like that and, although I am no lumber expert, I could see that it was practically all culls; there was no quality lumber at all. The result was that the. farmers got culls in return for their logs. I do not think that is a good arrangement. I do not know how much power the minister's department has over a thing like that, but something should be done in order to see that the farmer can either take his logs to the saw mill of his choice where he can get better terms or get a greater share of the lumber for the work he does in cutting the logs.
Another matter to which I should like to refer is the great difference in the treatment given permittees as compared with that given to licensees. It was pointed out a few minutes ago that the licensee was not limited in the size of the berth he could get, while, according to the regulations, the permittee is limited to one square mile. From the regulations I have prepared some figures which show what the permittee has to pay.


James Allison Glen: Is the permittee not limited to a certain quantity?


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: I asked' the minister whether these regulations were still in force, because these figures are based upon the regulation. It states here definitely that the permittee may get a limit to one square mile. If there has been a change made in the regulations I should be glad to know it. At page 19 of the regulations we find this:
Permits to owners of sawmills to cut lumber, shingles, lath and other manufactured products over definitely described tract of contiguous lands not exceeding one square mile in extent . . .


James Allison Glen: Is the hon. member not referring to licences for berths already granted?
rMr. Zaplitny.]


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: This comes under the heading of timber permits, so that it is definitely related to permits.


James Allison Glen: I believe those are dated 1929.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: Yes.


James Allison Glen: They do not apply to cutting in the parks except in the case of licences for timber berths that' have been granted.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: As I understand it, these regulations apply to the whole area, because they start off by saying:
Regulations governing the granting of yearly licences and permits to cut timber on dominion lands.
It does not specify the parks of Canada; it specifies dominion lands. In other words, the regulations apply regardless of where the lands happen to be.
To come back to what I was going to say, I made a comparison of the fees paid by a permittee and those paid by a licensee, and these figures were taken from the regulations. These are:
Prices
Licensee Permittee
Poplar lumber	$
Other lumber	1
Lath	
Hewn railway ties No.
1 and 2	
Hewn railway ties No.
3 and cull	
Sawn railway ties No. 1
and 2	
Sawn railway ties No. 3
and cull	
Fence posts-round 7 ft.
6 in. top	
Poles-all lengths, 8 in.
top	
Cord-wood - green poplar	
Cordwood-other	
Pulpwood	
Ground rent	10
50 per M
00	per 11 30 per M
06 each
03 each
05 each
2i each
01	each
02	a foot
25 a cord 40 a cord 60 a cord 00 sq m

10 each 06 each 09 each 05 each
02	each
03	foot
50 cord 75 cord 1 00 cord 100 00 sq m
When I look at regulations like this I wonder whether we really have free enterprise. I see no reason, why a person, simply because he may have been of the right political shade some years ago, should be given a favourable contract of this kind so that to-day he is able to get these things at these favourable rates. There is no possibility of a man with a small sawmill being able to compete, if we -want to put it that way, with someone who is in a monopolistic and favourable position. I cannot see any justification for this and, if the minister can explain it, I shall be glad to hear his explanation.
Last year I asked the minister why changes had not been made in the rates, why it was that licensees of these berths were continued

Supply-Lands and Parks
in this favoured position. He replied, as reported a't page 3360 of Hansard for that year.
We cannot interfere with what is already a contract with those who purchased these limits prior to the establishment of the park.
And on the same page:
That is so; we cannot alter the contract.
I am not sure that the minister is correct, and I turn to page 9 of the regulations where we find that the licensee is entitled to a renewal of his licence from year to year. Then there follows this proviso:
Provided that such renewal shall be subject to the payment of such rental and dues and to such terms and conditions as are fixed by the regulations in force at the time renewal is made.
If we go through the rest of the regulations we find that the minister has the power to make regulations, which I think is proof that the minister may set the fees from year to year according to what he thinks is proper. I think that has been the case in connection with timber limits or permits on Indian reserves. In those cases the fees are substantially higher than those charged licensees under these regulations. I believe it is quite definite, that the minister has the right to set the fees from year to year.
The only argument which I think the minister can use is that a contract was entered into at the time the timber berth was sold some years ago and that he is not disposed now to change the terms of that contract. I do not think that is a good argument, because times have changed. The prices that prevailed when this company took over the timber berths in 1889 and 1898 are different from the prices that prevail to-day. Retail prices of lumber, shingles, lath and all these things have gone up tremendously, and there is no reason why the minister should not change the regulations to bring these prices up to compare with the present scale of prices.
I believe the treasury of the country is losing a substantial amount of money each year because, of the favourable contracts held by these companies. I do not want to go into the matter of Indian reserves at the present time because it comes under a different vote. But I would point out that over the last five years 100 million feet of lumber have been taken out of the Indian reserves alone. I have here several returns showing the number of feet of lumber and other products taken from dominion crown lands. A simple calculation shows that we are losing thousands of dollars, perhaps hundreds of thousands of dollars each year because the scale of fees is still in many cases what it was at the time the companies were formed, or at the time the 63260-344
individuals got their timber berths; and they are not comparable with prices people now pay for lumber and other timber products.
I do not know what justification there can be for a company like the Northern Trust Company owning timber in a national park and getting the lumber at a price which is about one-quarter the price being charged people who live around the park area. I suggest that attitude cannot be defended, and I hope the minister will give a satisfactory explanation of this situation.


James Allison Glen: The hon. member is deeply interested in Riding Mountain national park, as I am. I am anxious that everything in it will be as he would want it. The original licence was issued in 1890 to George H. Bradbury, comprising an area of fifty-four square miles. On March 5, 1892, eighteen square miles were assigned to Charles Geikie. This area remained under berth No. 551D. In 1942 there weTe 3-37 square miles cut over and withdrawn. In 1944 there were -46 square miles withdrawn. The present area is 14-17 square miles. My information is that the Northern Trust Company acquired this berth on December 23, 1926, from the United Assets Company of Winnipeg.
The other berth, namely berth 571, is one concerning which the original licence was issued to James Shaw in 1890. The area was thirty-four square miles. The withdrawals are as follows: In 1902, there were -39 square miles withdrawn; in 1904, there were 28-86 square miles assigned to T. A. Burrows. This reduced the area to 4-75 square miles which, on re-survey, was found to contain 4-93 square miles. The withdrawal figure for 1942 is 1-118 square miles, and for 1944 it is -195 square miles, giving a present area of 3-617 square miles. The Northern Trust Company acquired the berth on December 23, 1926, from the United Assets Company.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: There seems to be some confusion as to the date. In one of the returns I have the date for berth 551D given as December 31, 1889, under the name of the Northern Trust Company, and for berth 571, it is December 31, 1898. In another return I have November 10, 1926, for the same company ; and in a third return it is December 23, 1926. Can we establish the exact date?


James Allison Glen: These are the dates I have. I understand that the Northern Trust Company were acting for an estate.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: Starting on what date?


James Allison Glen: In December, 1926. The progress of timber cutting on both berths shows that from 1890 to 1897 practically no timber

Supply-Lands and Parks

was cut. From 1898 to 1903 a small amount of timber was cut. From 1904 to 1905 a larger amount of timber was cut, the amount decreasing to 1908. From 1909 to 1936 no timber was cut. From 1937, to date, a mill has been erected and timber cutting carried out each year according to the regulations.
The dues charged were SI per 1,000 feet; $10 per square mile ground rent and $2 annual licence fee, plus half the cost of fire protection. The licensee must dispose of all tops, branches and other debris resulting from timber operations.
The question has been asked as to why the timber dues were not raised to the same level as those charged by the province outside the park and by the dominion for timber permits under the park regulations.
In regard to the rates charged on timber berths, I would point out that these berths were not operated for many years prior to 1936. From 1936 until the war years the operator of these berths was carrying on under depression conditions, at which time he was required to sell his lumber at cheap prices. This was a definite benefit to the community, and it was felt at this time that we could not justify raising the rates. The dues on timber cut under park regulations were raised on November 2, 1940, to what the province was charging outside the park. The chief reason for this increase in dues was to discourage applications for timber permits in the park and to force all those who could secure their timber under more favourable conditions from provincial sources to do so. There is only a limited amount of timber which can be made available each year in the park.
In regard to the operations on the two licensed timber berths, the value of timber has changed greatly during the war years, but any time the wartime prices and trade board were consulted in regard to raising rates we were advised that it was not in accordance with government policy to raise such rates. Such a policy is still in force, and therefore in the meantime there is nothing which can be done in this connection. However, I think that as soon as the wartime restrictions are lifted the department proposes to (a) raise the rates on these licensed berths to what the province is charging; and (b) see that definite steps are taken in accordance with the licence to have the commercial timber cut and the cut-over areas withdrawn each year as the area is cut over.
The hon. member did not make any suggestion as to what policy the government should take other than that of raising the rates within the park. Of course he will realize that they have obligations in connec-

tion with fire protection, and the men who are required to look after the berth operations. This would make an increased cost which other persons would not have. However, the hon. member has not made any suggestion as to what we, could do. What the hon. member is referring to as park regulations are really the regulations which were in effect before the park was formed. The permit holders who are cutting lumber are under park regulations, and there is that distinction. I should be glad to have from the hon. member his idea as to what I should do to protect that park, because I am just as concerned as he is that no one shall get more out of it than he is entitled to. He has not offered any suggestion that I think I could take. I have now stated what my policy will be, if I am in charge. We will raise the rates at the earliest possible date in accordance with provincial rates, and take care that the cut-over areas are immediately withdrawn and placed within the purview of the park itself.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: I have no particular
quarrel with the minister's intentions. However, he has referred to the obligations this company has in connection with fire protection. I have here a return dated June 11, 1946, which shows the amount of money the company paid as its share of fire protection. It amounts to $38.12 for inspection of berth 551D and $9.75 for berth 571, which. I maintain, is not very much. Surely it is not an onerous sum to pay for fire protection, amounting in all to about $44.


James Allison Glen: Of course the company have had to pay for men to look after their own plant, and timber berth operations, and to help take care of any fire in that particular part, over and above the amount spent in the park itself.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: I agree that they would have to do that; anyone camping, in the park would have to do it. I want also to point out that I am complaining particularly about the difference between the treatment of licensees and of other classes, not particularly in this park alone but as a general policy. I do not see why it should be that because this company got that favoured position-


James Allison Glen: We are not granting any timber berth licences now.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: I realize that. But the minister's attitude is this-he may have some valid ground for it but I have not seen it yet-that this company has a contract and therefore his department cannot do anything about it. Later, he said that as soon as the

Supply-Lands and Parks
wartime prices and trade board permitted, his department would raise the fees to this company. I am amazed at that kind of statement from the minister. Surely the fee which this company has paid of SI per 1,000 feet does not begin to compare with what people generally ai'e paying for lumber at the present time, if they can get it. Surely the wartime prices and trade board would not prevent a department of government from raising the fees to what they considered the proper level. I find it hard to believe that the Department of Finance-


James Allison Glen: The wartime prices and trade board.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: I am amazed that the wartime prices and trade board would be so dictatorial as to dictate policy to the Department of Mines in respect of fees. I do not see why the minister did not put his foot down at the very beginning and point out to the rest of the government that here was a situation that should have been rectified long ago, a situation in which the people of this country have had their natural resources sold down the river. I am not blaming the present minister for having made such a contract because I do not think he would do it. 1 think he is too enlightened and progressive, but I should have felt much happier if the present minister would have seen fit to tell off the wartime prices and trade board, tell them where to go, when they ruled that just because this company was allowed to get its lumber at $1 per 1,000 feet before 1941, that price was a frozen price after 1941. Those are weak premises on which to base an argument, and I am amazed and unhappy to know that our government can allow its own creation, the wartime prices and trade board, to prevent it from rectifying an injustice which has been done for years with respect to our natural resources. I certainly hope that the minister will do something about the matter. He could well point out to the wartime prices and trade board that if they are interested in price stabilization and price control it should be based on a system of justice and not just simply on the freezing of prices as they were.
I cannot see any valid argument for continuing this contract. Suppose the Northern Trust Company had been given a limit of
1.000	square miles at twenty-five cents per
1.000	feet-and such things have happened in this country-would it follow that so long as prices and fees were frozen the people of Canada would continue to lose money on that contract for years and years because the wartime prices and trade board would not permit the government to raise its fees? Perhaps it
63260-344}
is because I am a new member, but I am really amazed that such things can be done. I did not think it could happen, and I believe that there is a course which the minister must take.
The minister asked me if I had any suggestions. I would make this suggestion in the first place, that the minister in consultation with his colleagues in the cabinet immediately ask the government to pass an order in council-I understand the government is not averse to orders in council-to make it possible for his department to raise the fees in this particular field comparable with the fees other people have to pay. I would also ask the minister, for purposes of a long-range policy, to study the programme being followed in Saskatchewan with respect to the timber board there. I am not going into an expose of that because it might lead to an argument. I will simply say that the Saskatchewan government have established a timber board which has been able to bring to the public treasury a substantial proportion of the value of the timber of that province. I think the Minister of Mines and Resources would be well advised to study the operations of that board, and then perhaps, with the benefit of their experience, he may be able to evolve a timber board for this dominion which would work even better than the one in Saskatchewan.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Lands, Parks and Forests branch-
11,5. Eastern arctic expedition, $75,000.
Angus MacInnis: Would the minister explain what is being done under this item?


James Allison Glen: This vote provides for expenses connected with the annual eastern arctic patrol; ocean and aerial transportation for government administrative and scientific personnel; freight charges on fuel, food, medicines and other supplies tc administrative and medical headquarters, Royal Canadian Mounted Police detachments, radio stations, hospitals and missionary centres; carriage of royal mail; transportation of Eskimo families with household effects, boats, sledges and dogs; radio telegraph tolls and incidentals for an ocean voyage of more than 19.000 miles in three to five months through unorganized territories.
Under authority of order in council P.C. 2472 dated June 18, 1946, an agreement has been entered into with the Hudson's Bay Company whereby government passengers and freight for eastern arctic points will be carried on the Nascopie and auxiliary vessels, at the same rates as approved in 1941. The officer in charge is J. G. Wright, of the lands, parks and forests branch, and his assistant i*f A. Stevenson.
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The Nascopie sailed from Montreal on Saturday, July 6, 1946. The vessel is scheduled to reach Churchill, Manitoba, on August 9, and remain until August 17 to bunker and take on additional passengers and freight for the northern part of the voyage. The most northern port of call will be Dundas Harbour on Devon island, scheduled to be reached September 15. The vessel is due back in Montreal on October 8, 1946.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Lands, Parks and Forests branch-
1J/S. Forest and wild life conservation including Wood Buffalo park, $252,500.
Mr. McLURE:: With respect to this item and item 149 dealing with roads, is this large amount for the purpose of building roads to the parks, or is it for the parks in general? I brought up this matter last year.


James Allison Glen: Item 146 deals with the northwest territories, not with roads.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Item 149 deals with roads, and I was wondering whether it was for roads to the national parks.	.


James Allison Glen: No.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: What item does that come under?


James Allison Glen: Roads in the parks come under the parks votes, but not roads to the parks.


Harry Grenfell Archibald: Under this item, which has to do with animal and wild life conservation, I should like to bring two points to the minister's attention. Charlotte island has no natural wild life at all. Elk have been put there in recent years, and I am led to understand that they are doing well. Deer have bec-n there for quite a number of years, and they are beginning to lose size and weight, whether through inbreeding or not I do not know. But there are actually no predatory animals on the island, and I am not asking that they be put there, but I suggest, under this item, that the minister take an interest in raising a type of deer with better blood, if I may put it in that way. Also, there is no such thing as a squirrel on these islands, and the people would like an investigation into the possibility of putting squirrel, beaver, and so on, on these islands. I believe they would fit in very well.
While I am on this matter, I should like to mention Atlin and the lakes up there. That area is just beginning to open up, and I am told on good authority that the scenery in that district is equal to, if not better than, any of the mountain resorts in Europe. Wild life there, such as geese, has become almost extinct

in recent years, and the citizens would be interested if some conservation work were done. It would be an added attraction to tourists in future years.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I note under this vote, although it has considerably increased, that two of the medical officers are apparently not being provided for.


James Allison Glen: That is under health and welfare estimates.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Lands, Parks and Forests branch
[Stage Direction]
Airports, roads, buildings and w-ater systems- construction and improvements-
148. Buildings, $375,700.
John Ritchie MacNicol: All these items, numbered 147 to 150 inclusive, go together, dio they not, and pertain to the works which are going on in connection with Yellowknife townsite?


James Allison Glen: Yes.


Harry Grenfell Archibald: The Minister of Public Works referred me to the Department of Mines and Resources on a question I had about the road being built from Whitehorse down to Atlin. Can I ask the question under this item?


James Allison Glen: No.


Harry Grenfell Archibald: What item would that come under?


James Allison Glen: Vote 771, supplementaries.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Lands, Parks and Forests branch-government of the Yukon Territory-
151. Administration, $100,000.
William Irvine: I want to bring to the minister's attention a matter which I attempted to bring before the committee on a previous item, and was asked to wait until we reached item 151. I discussed it briefly with the minister before. It is a protest from the people of Dawson city against the action of the controller. I assume the minister is well aware of whatever constitutional rights the controller has and whatever constitutional rights the elected council of Yukon territory have, and will be in a position to deal with the matter without my going into that phase of it. Suffice it to say that the council, which was elected and is constantly elected to look after the local interests of the people, passed certain legislation, particularly legislation which had to do with labour. For instance, there was an ordinance dealing with annual vacations with pay; there was an amendment to the workmen's compensation ordinance; and an amendment to an ordinance respecting

Supply-Lands and Parks
the office of public administrator. I can go into the details of the legislation if required; but I am sure the minister is very well acquainted with the details of it, so that unless it is questioned, I shall not trouble the committee with the details. But the point is that these ordinances, having been passed by a unanimous vote, of the elected council, were vetoed by the controller. The controller is an appointee of this government and an absentee from the Yukon. He, exercising, I assume, an authority which he must have, has vetoed this legislation. The people who elected that council have, in my opinion, a just right to be disturbed over that arbitrary action on the part of the controller. In the words of their protest they say, "We choose to label such exercise of this power by a non-eleeted individual as class discrimination and smacking loudly of dictatorship in its most distasteful role." I imagine that His Majesty the King has the power to veto. I believe that His Excellency the Governor General has a limited power of veto. But these gentlemen are always too wise to exercise it except under very extraordinary circumstances. I wonder whether the controller of Yukon territory has any greater veto power than His Majesty the King or His Excellency the Governor General. At any rate I am asking the minister if he will give this matter his consideration, if he will review the case. If there is to be disallowance of legislation of that kind I think it will be far more satisfactory to the people there if the disallowance were effected by a government elected by the people rather than by some individual who is appointed, who perhaps knows little about the local situation, and has no direct responsibility to the people. I hope the minister will look into this matter, and I should be glad if he would make a statement about it now.
Mr. G'LEN: The hon. member had spoken to me regarding these matters in connection with an ordinance which was passed by the Yukon council, one dealing with workmen's compensation. At present that matter is being discussed with the workmen's compensation officer of the Department of Transport. No decision has yet been arrived at, but I can assure the hon. gentleman that I shall be dealing with it, I think sympathetically.
The other matter which the hon. gentleman is interested in is an ordinance with regard to vacations with pay. There is a good deal of ambiguity in the ordinance as to when the vacation will begin and when the pay will begin. I have sent it to the Department of
Justice to deal with that matter, and I think we shall arrange it to the satisfaction even of the hon. gentleman.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Lands, Parks and Forests branch-Dominion forest service-
153. General scientific, economic, and administrative services, $373,890,
John Ritchie MacNicol: The minister is aware, I believe, of the serious effects which the starlings are having on the trees at the east end of these buildings. Similar damage is apparently going on all over the province of Ontario, where trees, particularly in towns and cities, are being destroyed by these birds. Is the department making any effort to curb the menace?


James Allison Glen: There is a committee on forest pests. The other night I was watching that beautiful tree which is being destroyed and I should like to see something done to preserve it.	'	.


John Ritchie MacNicol: In the various municipalities they are studying what ought to be done to save the trees.


Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: The starlings must be got rid of. Those around these buildings are particularly bad and I think some concerted effort should be made to get rid of them.


Mr. LOW:: Is this item the place where I may ask with respect to a possible arrangement with the province of Alberta in connection with the preservation of the forests on the east slope of the Rockies?


James Allison Glen: Yes.


Solon Earl Low: What progress is being made in the negotiations between the province and the department?


James Allison Glen: For several months we have been discussing the question of the east slope of the Rockies, realizing the magnitude of the undertaking; and I had an interview, along with the Minister of Reconstruction, with Premier Manning and Mr. Tanner some time in June. We discussed the whole question, proposals for and against. Mr. Tanner brought forward certain proposals which we discussed and considered, and I wrote to him in July stating the department's point of view and that of the Minister of Reconstruction. Last week I had a telephone call from Mr. Tanner and. since then, I have been in touch with Premier Manning who has made certain proposals looking to a solution of the problem. Yesterday I had a meeting with the Minister of Reconstruction and we are submitting a proposal again to Mr. Man-
[DOT]5466
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ning immediately. I think I can say that we shall arrive at a settlement which will be satisfactory to both of us. In the meantime we shall work out the details together, and I hope we can come to an agreement that will provide for an operation to take care of the east slope of the Rockies in a manner satisfactory both to the dominion and to the provincial governments.


Solon Earl Low: I thank the minister for what he has said. I am sure that in his appioach to the problem he is aware of the tremendous importance of preserving the watershed, because the future irrigation and reclamation schemes in the west will depend upon such preservation. Again I wish to thank him.


James Allison Glen: I expect to be in Edmonton within the next eight or ten days and I hope to see both Mr. Manning and Mr. Tanner.


Mr. MENARY:: Back home we had two or three acres of beautiful grove at the side of the village, balsam and cedar trees, and today they are dead, having been killed by the starlings. The minister should do something to protect these trees. Shoot the starlings or do something about it.


James Allison Glen: That is not under my jurisdiction, but I will bring it to the attention of my colleague who has charge of such matters.


Mr. WARREN:: We have plenty of grievances as far as starlings are concerned, and I suggest to the hon. member for Wellington North that he import a few falcons. I have on occasion stood outside the parliament buildings and watched the starlings by the thousand, perhaps one might say the million, coming here from all over the country to spend the night.


Angus MacInnis: Lobbying.


Ralph Melville Warren: I happened to come across a most interesting piece of information the other day. The nearest point where falcons can be found is in the vicinity of Montreal and they come up once in a while and take off the heads of about two hundred of the starlings and go back home. If the hon. member could import a few falcons into his neighbourhood he might get rid of the starlings.


Lewis Menary: I will send them an
invitation.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Perhaps you could do some falconing on the hill.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
|Mr. Glen.]
Lands, Parks and Forest branch-
151,. Forest experiment stations, $252,010.
Angus MacInnis: What is being done under this item? I think we have come to the stage in our development ir Canada, as far as timber is concerned, where something must be done and done quickly; otherwise we shall lose what has been one of the most valuable economic assets this country has had. There is scarcely a province in Canada- that is not almost denuded of forest wealth, which at one time we thought would never be destroyed or be exhausted. How many forest stations are in operation and what work is being done m them?


James Allison Glen: We are spending very much more now than we did before the war, nearly three times the amount. This vote is for the conduct of research work on five forest experiment stations and outside demonstration areas under the supervision of the stations as follows: Acadia, in New Brunswick, area 35 square miles; Yalcartier, in Quebec, area 7% square miles, which was closed for the duration owing to the superintendent being on military service; Petawawa, in Ontario, area 97 square miles; Riding Mountain, area 2514 square miles, within the Riding Mountain national park, Manitoba; Kananaskis, in Alberta, area 63 square miles.
These stations function as field laboratories for conducting silvicultural research and investigations in stands representative of the various forest regions in which they are located and in accordance with policies and plans evolved by the senior technical staff at headquarters.
With the end of the war and the greatly increased interest evident on the part of provinces, industry and the general public in Canada's forest resources, it becomes necessary to revise and expand the activities of the dominion forest service during the post-war period. Most of the labour during the war years was performed by alternative service workers at nominal rates of pay, and normal work had in the main to be drastically curtailed and reduced to a care and maintenance -basis. It now becomes necessary not only to resume normal programmes, but to expand these on a basis designed to meet the requirements of a new era being ushered in during the post-war years.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Lands, Parks and Fore'sts branch-[DOT]
158. National parks and historic sites services, $2,069,000.
John Ritchie MacNicol: I wish to say a word with respect to the design of tie monument which

Supply-Lands and Parks
the minister unveiled recently at Campobello, and similar designs. In my opinion that is a much finer design than the ordinary type one sees in these days along the highways, which is made of stone and which comes to a triangular peak. I have a picture of the monument at Orillia to Champlain. It came from the department. It is similar to the monument which was erected at Campobello on Passama-quoddy bay to the memory of the late president Franklin D. Roosevelt, and to the one which is to be erected next year at Fairfield in Kent county, Ontario, to commemorate the founding of Fairfield by the Moravians in 1792. It is a rehabilitation programme in which I am interested and about which I shall say more in another year.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: I wish to say a few- words about what is called the Prince Albert national park, commonly known to us who live in the neighbourhood as Waskesiu. The reason I bring up this matter is that I believe I detect a tendency which I deplore in the administration of our parks. I am glad that certain improvements are being carried out in the park, improvements to the golf course and things of that kind. New cottages have been built there. I believe, and it is about that subject that I should like to say a word. I myself do not live in the particular constituency, but I cannot ignore the letters I receive from the people in my constituency who make that park their summer home. I had occasion to protest once before in regard to the building of pretentious bungalows in the park. The method was that a certain piece of ground was leased by people who scrambled to get these particular leases and then built expensive cottages upon them. There was a building restriction in this section which placed a limit of $500 upon the amount to be spent, but in my judgment the cottages to which I refer cost on an average, at least four times that. That is all very fine, but the point is that in that particular row where these twenty cottages were built 120 families who had been using that space were displaced and moved back into the bush. I have no fault to find with the people who occupy these fine lots and who are able to afford to build upon them, except that the cottages were built by people who already owned houses in the cities, and of lumber which was badly needed to build houses for our returned veterans.
As I say, the improvements are welcomed, I suppose, as a promotion to tourist trade, as a general improvement. But I would urge upon the department not to be too much carried away by the policy of making this and other such places into a model camp to
be kept, as it were, immaculate, and to serve the few. Let us look at it from the point of view of what is the real object, what is the real need, what is the real function of a national park. To my mind, these so-called shack tenters and campers are just as important as the people who can build and occupy more expensive bungalows. Many of the people who have patronized Waskesiu for years-and I may say that some of these people have gone there and occupied the same space of ground for as many as ten years; to my knowledge-consider that they have a definite grievance, and for some reason they keep writing to me about it; their grievance is that they have been displaced from their old quarters in the manner in which I have spoken, and that expensive cottages have been built. It is not as if there were any scarcity of ground. There are thousands and thousands of acres and hundreds and hundreds of miles of waterfront easily available. The point I wish to make is that the owner of sufficient wealth-and it does not have to be much wealth-can provide himself with one of these more expensive cottages. I say all power to him; I am gled that he is able to do that, but the point is that he should not have a priority in the matter of site which is somewhat important in lake locations.
I know that the present management at Waskesiu disagrees with me on this particular issue. A number of correspondents who have written to me say that the present management shows a considerable lack of imagination in regard to the running of the park generally. I know nothing of that, because I am not competent to say, but I do know that the only people whom I can hold responsible for the situation is this department of the government. I have in my possession a letter which was written by the assistant controller of the department in answer to one of these protests. The controller of the department assumes the responsibility for the policy in regard to the displacement of these people, thus exonerating, as it were, the superintendent.
As I have said, there was a building restriction of $500. In this particular letter to which I referred, the controller boasts:
I doubt very much if there was a single cottage in the first unit of this subdivision which did not cost much beyond this figure.
I quite agree; I said that $2,500 would be closer to the value of some of these cottages. Hon. members see the point I am trying to make, namely, that you need to have some money in order to enjoy the blue sky and the wind on the water at Waskesiu. I would remind the government of the clause in the
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James Allison Glen: I have a great deal of sympathy with what my hon. friend has said with regard to the park and the apparent discrimination made between those already resident and those who come in. In connection with the park in Manitoba we were anxious that it should not become a millionaire's paradise but rather that it be a park for the common people. Camping grounds are provided there for the accommodation of visitors. I am informed that the superintendent in Waskesiu has plenty of accommodation in the way of camping grounds for those who may come there. As far as the apparent discrimination is concerned, I would tell my hon. friend that a request was made by many of those desiring lots that a portion be set apart so that they could get a lot on which to build a house commensurate with their desires. There was no intention of disturbing any one or depriving anyone of an opportunity of doing likewise.
In connection with the concessions to which my hon. friend has referred, the rule now is that five per cent of the gross turnover of the business be paid. Formerly that was not the case, because in previous days a rental charge was made. This may account for the apparent discrimination in the two cases mentioned.

Supply-Lands and Parks


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: Has the minister any particulars with regard to the ownership of the Lake view Inn?


James Allison Glen: We have no information as to who is the owner.


John Lambert Gibson: Last session I asked the minister if he had had any discussion with the provincial government about taking over Forbidden Plateau park on Vancouver island. I understand that the premier of British Columbia was here some time ago and had some discussions with the department.


James Allison Glen: No progress has been made along the lines indicated by the hon. gentleman.


Mr. HARKNESS:: When we were discussing this item last year the hon. member for York South made some extremely valuable suggestions in connection with the development of our mountain parks from the point of view of skiing, hiking, and so on. I also made some suggestions with regard to the provision of low-cost accommodation in the form of lodges, cabins and so on, and the opening up of new hiking trails. Provision should be made for the accommodation of an increased number of people in these parks at a lower cost to the people. I notice that an amount of $700,000 is provided for temporary assistance and wages and $950,000 for equipment, materials and supplies. What progress has been made in the way of providing accommodation as well as the development of ski and hiking trails? Can the minister tell us also how the money provided for construction purposes was spent?


James Allison Glen: I assume the hon. member is referring to Banff and Jasper particularly?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Yes.


James Allison Glen: I can give the following
particulars with regard to Banff and Jasper:
Auto Bungalow Camp Concessions Granted in 1946
Name-Location-Area-Minimum No. Cabins Banff national park-
Walls, R. C., east of Banff auto camp, 2 acres -20.
Vanzant, C. A., and Tabuteau, N. J., near Tunnel Mountain drive, 3 acres-30.
Coughlan, Roy A., east of Banff, 2 acres-20.
Staple, Geoffry W., east of Banff, 2J acres- 25.
Bunnell, Everett L., Two Jacks lake, 2 acres- 20.
Jasper national park-[DOT]
Zeidler, Miss Gerda and Trudel, Victor E., jet. Miette and Athabasca, 2 acres-20.
Alexander, Kenneth H., vicinity Caledonia Cr., 2 acres,-20.
Wells, Ralph F., Athabaska Falls, 2 acres-20.
Webb, Victor F B., West Willow avenue, Jasper, 3 acres-30.
Bolli, Lloyd A., jet. Bonhomme and Aspen ave., Jasper, 2 acres-20.
I understand that all these are returned soldiers.


Douglas Scott Harkness: When these licences are granted is any restriction placed on the prices that may be charged for accommodation, or is that left entirely up to the person providing the accommodation?


James Allison Glen: The concessionaire must satisfy the park superintendent that his prices are fair and reasonable, and the rates charged must be posted on the walls of the cabins.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Can the minister say
anything about the development of ski and hiking trails and the providing of accommodation for people using these trails?


James Allison Glen: The department are doing what they can, with the inadequate help they have at the present time so far as they possibly can, to keep the trails improved, and to extend them, too.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Has any help been given to the Canadian Hostelers' Association, which provides places where young people may stay overnight for small charges. I know there was a request made in connection with a place in Kananaskis.


James Allison Glen: Nothing has been done with regard to the building of hostels, because we do not wish to compete with the soldiers who. are there in the park, and have to construct their buildings.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I have had communications from the people in the Alberta parks, and particularly from the Alberta board of trade, respecting landing strips. I understand that one has been built at Banff, and that it is either completed or almost completed. The people at the othe'- parks-Jasper, Waterton and Elk island-are anxious that landing strips be provided, evidently believing that with the increase in air travel a considerable number of private aircraft from the United States would land at those points, if any provision were made. Has anything been done at these other parks?


James Allison Glen: The matter is being investigated by the Department of Transport. They are considering accommodation for small aircraft at the present time, but no decision has yet been made about a larger landing field.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I take it that there are no air strips, except at Banff.
Supply-Lands and Parks


James Allison Glen: And particulars are being prepared with respect to Jasper for submission by the Department of Transport.


Douglas Scott Harkness: It was my information that the landing strip at Banff had been completed.


James Allison Glen: For small aircraft only.


Mr. WEBB:: When this item was under discussion last year I spoke respecting the Thousand Islands park area. I mentioned at that time that during the war those parks had become more or less run down, and the services are not any too satisfactory. I noticed this year there is an increase of $700,000 and, while I do not expect the minister would spend all of it in that area, I am wondering if he is considering spending at least a portion of it. These parks are crowded all the time. However, the docks are not in good condition and the services are not as they should be. I am hoping that from his estimates this year the minister may make some improvements and give some further services.


James Allison Glen: The hon. member knows that we have had investigations made by our officers, and that investigations are being made by United States officers. Separate reports are being submitted independently by the investigating officers, one for the United States and one for ourselves. Those reports have not yet been considered, and I am therefore not yet in a position to say what the result may be.


George Robert Webb: I do not suppose the minister has anything to report on the international park.


James Allison Glen: Not at the present time.


Mr. HAZEN:: This item provides for the expenditure of $2,069,000 on national parks and historic sites. Has the minister received any communication this year from the government of New Brunswick respecting the establishment of a national park in, that province? I understand that the dominion government is prepared to establish a park, if the provincial government will supply a suitable site and give a title in fee simple. I believe New Brunswick is the only province in Canada with no national park at the present time. Have there been any communications this year between the government of New Brunswick and his department aibout the establishment of a park in that province?


James Allison Glen: No, we have had no communication. The hon. member has stated the procedure exactly.


William Scottie Bryce: I wish to know how the $709,000 will be spent. I have visited the

national park in Manitoba and benefited therefrom. I should like to see more people benefit from similar visits. I do not want to talk about discrimination between two classes, as happened at Prince Albert, but I would ask the minister to remember that there are more poor people than rich people, and that therefore more places have to be provided for them. I should hope that some of this money is being laid aside to provide these facilities.
Has the minister given any thought to providing bowling greens for the men who are getting old, like I am. They could have recreation in that way, or by playing horseshoes. I am sure that money would be well spent in a development of this kind.
Some of these parks will be crowded in the near future, and I am suggesting that the government should reserve a space in the interlake country for a second national park in Manitoba. There will be so many tourists coming to Canada that we shall require that extra accommodation, and this will be a good time to lay it aside.
Would the minister tell us how the concessions are let in our national parks in Manitoba? I know that in one park I visited there is a picture show .which does a roaring business. Does the park pay for itself?


John Ritchie MacNicol: Does the hon. member mean Riding Mountain?


William Scottie Bryce: Yes. Is it paying for itself, and is there enough money coming back into the consolidated revenue fund to pay the expenses of the park? It should be made to pay for itself.


James Allison Glen: The hon. member has spoken along the lines followed by the hon. member for Saskatoon City. He knows, as I do, that there is plenty of accommodation in the grounds for many more people than have ever gone into the park. There were 55,000 people who had gone into the park up to the end of July this year, and there is the probability that it will have a much larger attendance in the future. We shall have to provide sufficient accommodation.


William Scottie Bryce: We could have another in the interlake area.


James Allison Glen: Perhaps. I have had some letters with respect to bowling greens, probably more than the hon. member has had. Many people have approached me in regard to the matter. Only recently an officer was appointed whose duty it will be to see about recreation in all the parks in Canada, of such types as may be useful and required in those

Supply-Lands and Parks
parks. So far as money is made available, I shall spend it as carefully as possible and without discrimination.
Item stands.
At six o'clock the Speaker resumed the chair and the house took recess.
After Recess
The house resumed at eight o'clock.



WHEAT AND FLOUR


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Acting Prime Minister): Before you leave the chair, Mr. Speaker, I would ask for the consent of the house to make a statement on the wheat and flour restrictions. I should like to take this opportunity of informing the house that the restriction introduced on April 1 of this year, which limited the usage of wheat by millers and other processors of wheat for domestic human consumption to ninety per cent of the quantity of wheat so used in the corresponding months of 1945, is being suspended, effective September 1. This particular restriction has undoubtedly created serious inconvenience in some sections of the country, particularly in those areas affected by a heavy influx of tourists and by the repatriation of men from the forces and their families.
Hon. members will have noticed an announcement by the United States secretary of agriculture last Friday, in which it was stated that a number of emergency restrictions in the use of grain were being relaxed because of their anticipated record harvests. Both the United States and Canada agreed early this spring upon a series of export objectives and imposed varying restrictions on the domestic use of grain to ensure their fulfilment. Each country determined its own particular type of restriction in the light of its own circumstances and its own over-all food export programme, with the understanding that in the general result the measures would be equally effective.
As hon. members already know, we were able to exceed our combined commitments on wheat flour and other cereals for the crop year ended July 31. The crops now being harvested indicate that, having regard to transportation problems, we shall be able, at least for the next six months, to continue to make our maximum contribution to world requirements.
[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
Lands, Parks and Forests branch-National
parks bureau-	[DOT]
1S8.	National parks and historic sites services, $2,069,000.
Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Last year I spoke on this item and made a request of the minister, and to refresh his memory I should like to say a few words with reference to our national park in Prince Edward Island.
As hon. members know, Prince Edward Island was discovered in 1534 by that great explorer Jacques Cartier, who was so greatly impressed by the beauty of the island that he wrote in his diary these words:
Low and flat and the fairest That may possibly be seen,
And full of beautiful trees and meadows.
Now, after a little more than four hundred years, Jacques Cartier's description can be intensified by the use of all the best adjectives one can find in Webster's dictionary to do justice to the island. We have a national park. It is one of the latest to be created. Established in 1937, it is a great addition to the tourist playgrounds of Canada. It extends along the north shore of Prince Edward Island for some twenty-five miles or more. While not large, it comprises over 4,000 acres.
It begins at Dalvay-Stanhope down by the sea on Tracadie bay and extends to Covehead harbour and then on to Braekley Beach, which is known to a great many even in this house. It follows along the coast to Rustico bay. The greater portion and perhaps the most interesting part of the park extends from Rustico harbour to the lake of Shining Waters at New London bay, and is known as the Rustico Cavendish part of our national park.
I know the minister has visited the park and had a delightful game of golf on the Green Gables golf course there. He also helped to open our national park. I am not going to dwell on the beauties of this park which, with its woodland beauties and fine bathing beaches, attracts hundreds of tourists, but I should like to mention that the finest advertising Prince Edward Island ever had as a beautiful tourist playground came from that wonderful writer, the late Lucy Maud Montgomery MacDonald, who by her writings did more to advertise the excellencies of Prince Edward Island and the beauties of its seacoa9t bordering our national park than all the advertising done by governments so far.
But the approaches to this park are not at all satisfactory. We were under the impression
Supply-Lands and Parks

that the roads leading to the park were to be improved, and all the more so when last winter the national parks controller announced through the press that there were being drafted in Ottawa plans which included improvements on all the roads leading to the Prince Edward Island national park. The golf course and the park have become very popular with the tourists, who are going there in increasing numbers each year during the vacation season. They can be reached by the highway from Summerside via Kensington, and also from Summerside via Hunter's river to within 31 miles of the park and golf course. They can also be reached from Rustico by a permanent highway, but what is required is the improvement of the road for a distance of 3| miles more, which would extend the permanent highway in each case direct to the grounds.
I notice in these estimates that over $600,000 is to be spent on roadways for the national parks, and this six or seven miles of roadway which I am urging the minister to build would not cost very much. For instance,' the highway goes to New Glasgow, first via Hunter's River, and then the McLure highwaj' goes from there to Rustico. From Rustico a road could be built through to the Land of Green Gables, a distance of 3J miles, which surely would not cost much more than a few dollars out of this vote of $600,000 which is now in the estimates for roads. I bring this matter again to the attention oT the minister and I hope he will not forget it. Part of the road is already built. It was begun in 1935 and finished in 1936 from Hunter's River via New Glasgow' to Rustico, a distance of twelve miles, and this hard-surfaced road was built by the federal government at not one cent of cost to the province of Prince Edward Island. We are looking forward to having this six or seven miles of road built, 31 miles from New Glasgow to Green Gables, and the other 3J from Rustico around the shore to Cavendish, making seven miles in all. I want the minister to make a special note of this in his mind, and if it is not included in these estimates, let us see that provision is made at another season.


James Allison Glen: I have had an opportunity of visiting the park which the hon. member speaks of, although he credits me with more than I am entitled to. because it was my predecessor who opened the park. Nevertheless I have been over it. The policy of the government prior to the war was to assist in building roads to the parks, but at the present time all we can do and are doing is to maintain and repair the roads within the parks. One of the proposals to the dominion-provincial conference was to take care of any roads approaching [Mr. MrLnre.l
the parks, but until a settlement is made with the provinces I am unable to hold out any hope that anything will be done, at any rate this year, on roads outside the park.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Lands, Parks and Forests branch-
159.	Administration of Migratory Birds Convention Act, $52,500.
Douglas Gooderham Ross: I suggest that what we are trying to do on behalf of the conservation of wild fowl is to a certain extent putting; the cart before the horse. I say that for two' or three reasons. We are trying to cut down the number of days when a man can shoot ducks and the number of ducks which can be taken a year. That is all to the good; I do' not think anyobdy wants to be a hog in the matter of shooting. But we have a great heritage in Canada in our wild fowl population. I should like to read something Which appeared in the magazine Rod and Gun. The writer says:
All these governments are now keenly conscious of Ruskin's dictum, "God has given this earth for our life. It is a great entail. It. belongs as much to those who come after us as to us, and we have no right, by anything we do. or neglect to do, to involve them in unnecessary penalties or to deprive them of the benefits; which are theirs by right."
This is not merely a question of shooting, and killing ducks. The figures which are quoted in this magazine are interesting and, I think, are worth while putting on record for the information of hon. members:
In 1875, it is estimated that we had 400,000,000 waterfowl. By 1900 there were, perhaps, only 200,000,000 and, by 1933, just seven per cent, or 28,000.000 of the 1875 waterfowl! population was left on the continent. In the' short space of 60 years 93 per cent of all waterfowl had disappeared and the balance w'as in a fair way to follow the fate of . . . other species of wild life now extinct.
We should try to find out the cause of this; condition. There are a great many reasons-for the depletion other than destruction by shooting. With the development of the prairies and other parts of our country much: of the water supply dried up. The fowl would bring up their young, and in a short time the water would dry up and the youngsters would die.
As the minister knows, a great work has been done by Ducks Unlimited, but a great deal more remains to be done. We in Canada have a great trust in the matter of our wild fowl population. Most of the ducks nest up in the north country, although certain classes nest in Ontario and other provinces. Ducks Unlimited, consisting of public-spirited men inL

Supply-Lands and Parks
the United States, have spent some millions of dollars on conservation measures. They are aware that the United States cannot do anything directly about the nesting grounds of the ducks which come down and winter in the United States, because the nesting grounds are located in Canada. We, therefore, as Canadians have a duty to do all we possibly can to conserve for future generations the wild fowl of this country. I cannot speak too strongly on this matter. Shooting ducks is a great recreation, and, so far as we members of parliament are concerned, is likely to be the only one open to us this year, since we are not going to have any summer holidays. Let us see if we can do anything to further this enterprise.
Two or three considerations occur to me. We need more money spent in the north country to conserve the water supply, although much is being done in that direction at the present time. I am not much in favour of spending the country's money, but it would be worth our while to 'make a grant to Ducks Unlimited to assist in the work they are carrying on in Canada.
In this connection we have neglected the problem of predatory birds. We see flocks of crows around all the time. We see numbers of starlings outside these buildings. We have horny owls and other predatory birds that are destroying our young broods of ducks, and not only those, but the young partridge, the prairie chicken and other game birds and lovely fowl we have in this country. I think it might be worth while to give a lead to the people and help to preserve, not only for Canada but for the United States, the wild fowl population of this country.


Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: I want to commend the minister for this-limited-grant in the estimates. I was much interested in the eloquent and forceful remarks of the hon. member for St. Paul's. We in my part of the country are greatly concerned with the protection of the migratory birds. We have a peculiar condition there which needs special consideration and which I wish to place before the minister. The citizens of the straits of Chignecto, Cumberland county and Westmorland county, in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, are anxious to protect these ducks and geese. They have done a great deal to protect them with their clubs, by having special guardians on the grounds in the closed season, and by planting bird food, wild oats and wild rice. For a great many years they have had a season, which opens on September 15 and which closes earlier, because the birds leave earlier, than in other parts of Nova Scotia
and New Brunswick. I can understand the desire of the minister and the department to have the seasons as uniform as possible; but there is a request, almost a demand, from the people who are interested in the protection of the birds and1 in the sport, that an exception be made in that area and that the earlier season in that part of the two provinces be continued rather than have it open on October the first.
The gunners in the town of Amherst, the town of Sackville, the town of Moncton and in the contiguous country, who have organizations for the protection of birds, met recently and passed resolutions asking that the minister perpetuate the date of the opening of the season, as has been the practice for many years, on September 15. The birds arrive in that district later than in other parts of Nova Scotia and they leave earlier. When they come in the spring they are protected - by the public, but they do a great deal of damage to the newly cropped land, the marsh lands, the hay fields and the newly seeded land by pulling up the roots and destroying crops. The people who are interested in the birds are satisfied to put up with that but they would like the season fixed to suit their conditions. There are some people-a few-who have leased lands or who own large acreage, who are able to get what gunning they desire during a late season. But the men I am speaking about, these members of the gunning clubs composed of industrial workers who work in the factory or on farms, have no other opportunity for an outing. They have been enjoying these outings for many years and they ask that the season be opened on September 15 as heretofore.
I will not ask the minister to make any definite decision now, but I would make a further appeal to him. I have already, together with the hon. member for Westmorland (Mr. Emmerson), had conferences with the minister and his officers and have put before them the facts, and I should like the minister to make a statement now giving us an assurance that he will personally give the matter further consideration and see whether he cannot meet the special wishes of these gunners. They do not get nor do they want big bags. It is not for commercial shooting in their case, but for sporting in the widest sense of the term, that they make this request.


Mr. EMMERSON:: I wish to align myself with the hon. member for Cumberland in this matter. Cumberland county and Westmorland lie together at the head of the bay of Fundy. A great many birds are bred in the
Supply-Lands and Parks

Chignecto area. I have been receiving protests from the fish and game protective association branch in Sackville and also in Moncton against the recent order in council changing the date from September 15 to October 1. The men in that locality are not what one might call game hogs. They are prepared to go along with the government in its effort to meet the treaty arrangements with the United States for the preservation of birds, and they are also prepared to go to the extent of cutting down the daily bag and the total bag, but they want an opportunity to shoot. The birds start, to leave in the first or second week in October and . by the middle of October there is practically no shooting. This means that if the season begins on the first of October they get about two weeks. They are willing to cut down on the number of birds they shoot, but they want to have an opportunity to shoot for at least three or four weeks. Most of them have no opportunity at all, except in the evenings. A good many of the men working in the railway shops in Moncton and Sackville foundries and on the farms want to take advantage of that opportunity in the evening to shoot over the decoys, and I urge the minister to give serious consideration to restoring the date to September 15, where it has been for years. There are three zones in New Brunswick. Westmorland is in the large zone, and I have reason to know that the majority of the people in New Brunswick, particularly in the area of that large zone No. 3, want the season to open on September 15. There is a disadvantage, of course, in having it open early because, as. duck hunters know, the early birds have too many pinfeathers; but it is better to have ducks with pinfeathers than no ducks at all.


Douglas King Hazen: No complaints have been brought to my attention, although for some years I was actively associated with the fish and game protective association in New Brunswick. I am not in the habit of congratulating the minister or other members of the government on what they do, and in that respect I differ from some of the members on this side of the house. At the same time I would say to the minister that I believe he has taken a step in the right direction in shortening the season and limiting the bag for our water-fowl. I think it is clear that the waterfowl, despite all conservation measures that have been taken, are decreasing in this country and the situation has to be faced. This may be due partly to the drought, but it is due largely to overshooting, and if it is due to overshooting in the last year or two, when so 
many of our men have been overseas, what will the condition be like in the next few years unless something is done? It would be a great calamity if these birds were wiped out or further reduced in numbers. The only suggestion I have to make is that the minister would be well advised to consult, as no doubt he does consult, Mr. Tufts, the migratory birds officer of the maritime provinces, who is familiar with these matters and who, I know, is very much interested in the conservation of such birds.


James Allison Glen: The hon. member for Westmorland and the hon. member for Cumberland have already seen me with regard to the matter. Apparently there is a peculiar situation in that district, differing from that in other parts of the eastern coast. I have been receiving communications. The hon. member for Cumberland has asked me to give the matter my personal attention and I shall do so. I understand that some communications have come in which I have not been able to see to-day, but I will look into the matter and, if possible, try to rectify it.


Percy Chapman Black: I thank the minister. As far as Mr. Tufts is concerned, I know he has done excellent work and his intentions are good. But he lives in a part of the province where the season opens two or three weeks earlier than it does in the area about which the hon. member for Westmorland and I have been speaking, and it also closes later. So that if the season opened two weeks earlier in the Chignecto area it would be comparable to the season in the district in which Mr. Tufts himself lives. Again I wish to say I appreciate the splendid work which Mr. Tufts has done in protecting the bird life of this country.


Douglas King Hazen: I do not think the migratory birds officer of the maritime provinces will be influenced by the particular district in which he lives. Knowing him as I do, I think what is going to influence him is his interest in the conservation of these birds. That will be his first and fundamental interest, and it is on that principle that he will base his judgment.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Lands. Parks and Forests branch-
160.	Forest and wild life conservation, $40,000.
Douglas Gooderham Ross: I knew Jack Miner many years ago. There is no question that he did a fine job, but he cannot do it all by himself. He needs help. I am in favour of giving him all the help he needs. Jack Miner was one of those fellows who understood the reason for the decline in the duck population. I do not agree with my colleague who

Supply-Surveys
just spoke about shooting. The shooting season should be shortened. We need a limit on the number of ducks taken in a year. No one wants to be a hog about it. It is a sport. Shooting is not what is killing the duck population particularly since we have done away with a lot of these things like swivel-guns. What we need is more sanctuaries for the birds, some place where they can land and be fed. It is not enough for the ducks to have some place to land where they are protected. They require to be fed. We need more of these places where they are fed, such as Jack Miner's place.
I know a little about conservation of birds because I have had something to do with it for a great many years. I am not one of those fellows who go out in a hide just for the fun of shooting ducks. I have sat down and watched them come down in front of me and play around, and I was ashamed to shoot them. I like to shoot them when they are in the air. But we have crows, jackdaws, owls, jack-fish, turtles and frogs which prey upon the young ducks. We ought to get the public interested in that aspect of the question so that the young birds could be protected and grow up. We have family allowances which take care of the children. Why should we not look after the young of the game birds so that our children will have a chance to shoot the birds when they grow up?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
-Lands, Parks and Surveys branch-
161.	Grant to Jack Miner migratory bird foundation, $5,000.
John Ritchie MacNicol: I should be derelict in my duty if I did not express the appreciation of those who are so interested in the marvellous work which is being done at the Miner foundation near Kingsville. The raising of the estimate from $2,500 to $5,000 is a step in the right direction. Lest anyone should think the foundation profits out of this vote, it is my duty to say that the foundation feeds around
14,000	bushels of corn a year to the geese, and that amount is continually growing, is getting larger all the time because a large number of geese stay all winter. I am sure it will please the foundation very much to learn that this vote has been increased.


Mr. WINKLER:: I rise not to criticize the vote of $5,000 to the Jack Miner migratory foundation but to remind the committee that there are other organizations and other people throughout the country who are engaged in the same kind of work. In the constituency of Lisgar in Manitoba about four miles from the town of Morris there is a family by the name of Gebauer who, for some twenty years, have
been feeding migratory birds, mostly ducks and geese. They have scraped a hole in the ground on the bald prairie and, by means of dams and other arrangements, have been able to look after a great many birds. As the hon. member for Davenport has pointed out, the main cost is in the feeding. Has consideration been given to the comparative merits of other people who are engaged in this same kind of work?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Lands, Parks and Forests branch-National parks bureau-
762. National parks and historic sites services-further amount required, $21,000.
James Allison Glen: The leader of the opposition wished to have an opportunity of making some remarks on this vote. He may be here later; therefore I ask that the item be allowed to stand until he is present.
Item stands.
Surveys and Engineering branch-*
16Jt. Dominion Astrophysical observatory, Victoria, B.C., $36,273.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: What is the extra amount for?


James Allison Glen: The increase is required to provide for the payment of salaries of officers returned from military leave or on loan to the war department; for increases in salaries due to promotion or reclassification or for statutory increases; also for the purchase of special scientific equipment.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Surveys and Engineering branch
[Stage Direction]
165.	Dominion water and power bureau, including the administration of the Dominion Water Power and Irrigation Acts, $272,000.
John Horne Blackmore: Will the minister give us a summary of the activities of this water and power bureau?


James Allison Glen: This vote was used in 1945-46 for the work of the dominion water and power bureau in making hydrometric measurements securing essential data on the flow of international and other waters and the administration of the Dominion Water Power and Irrigation Acts. The vote for 1946-47 will be used for the same purpose, but with some extensions to provide for work particularly required in the water resource field.
The increase of $21,000 results from the return to duty of four engineers who have been on military leave, amounting to $11,460, and to statutory increases offset by the release of certain temporary employees. In addition, an increase in the hydrometric wmrk in the southwestern portion of Ontario to the extent
Supply-Surveys

of $4,500 is being undertaken at the request of that province, which will be covered by an increased contribution of that amount from Ontario; also surveys at the Whitedog falls on the Winnipeg river being undertaken at the request of the Department of Reconstruction, estimated cost $5,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Surveys and Engineering branch-
166.	To provide for studies and surveys of the Columbia river watershed in Canada, $300,000.
Gordon Knapman Fraser: This is a new vote. Will the minister explain exactly what it is for?


James Allison Glen: This was in the External Affairs vote last year. It is a new vote so far as we are concerned. On a joint reference of the governments of Canada and of the United States, the international joint commission was directed to have a complete investigation made of the Columbia river watershed.


John Ritchie MacNicol: For what purpose?


James Allison Glen: For the carrying out of the studies-for irrigation and power purposes.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Partly that.


James Allison Glen: The carrying out of the studies and the surveys in Canada has been entrusted to the dominion water and power bureau, surveys and engineering branch, by the Canadian section of the international joint commission. This bureau has its own staff ' and it has secured the cooperation of other services of the branch and also of the Department of Public Works for the purposes of carrying out the investigations and office studies which are now in progress. An increase of $300,000 is shown in the estimates, but the increase is in reality, $170,000. A total of $130,000 was provided for in 1945-46 in the votes of the Department of External Affairs, and the increase of $170,000 is due to the fact that field work is now well organized and it is anticipated that a full season's operations will be accomplished in 1946-47 by all the cooperating services, whereas in 1945-46, as was well foreseen, the season was well advanced before the field work could be undertaken, owing to the difficulties of securing personnel and the necessary transportation and other equipment.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Is this not being provided for the purpose of discovering the height to which the Columbia river can be raised, in conjuetion with the United States who wish to increase the height of Grand Coulee dam which would back up the waters of the river for perhaps fifty miles over the boundary? tMr. Glen.]


James Allison Glen: I am told that is one of the purposes of the survey.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Since the bulk of the investigation work concerning the Columbia river is being done within my constituency, I can assure the minister that the people there are pleased to see this vote, particularly those who have lived in the district for forty or fifty years and have witnessed its development. This vote is an indication of the great development that will occur in that area. I should like to extend an invitation to the minister and to our parliamentary explorer, the hon. member for Davenport, to visit that section. I do not think the present Minister of Mines and Resources has been there.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Thank you; I will come.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I do not think we have had a minister out there for a number of years. When this development is completed it will be one of the greatest in the world. I believe the potential development will be in the neighbourhood of 30,000,000 horse-power. At the present time there is a greater development of electrical energy in Kootenay West than in the rest of British Columbia. I want to express the appreciation of my constituents for the policy undertaken by the department of seeing that news bulletins concerning the work are issued from time to time. The people there find these extremely interesting, and I think it is an excellent thing to keep the people concerned informed of what is taking place. What will be the procedure that will be followed by the international commission in dealing with these matters and how can those interested in the district express their views? There are many people who will be affected by the raising of these water levels, by the damming of rivers and so on.


James Allison Glen: There will be a report by our own officers to the international joint commission and also one by the United States officers. Following that, the decision will be made.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: What procedure will have to be followed by the people in the district in order to be able to express their views with regard to the development?


James Allison Glen: I am told that the Canadian commission will have hearings at which any representative body or individual may make representations.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Supply-Surve ys
Surveys and Engineering branch-
167.	Lake of the Woods control board, $8,950.
John Ritchie MacNicol: This vote is of long standing. It should be a small matter to regulate the flow out of Lake of the Woods down the Winnipeg river. The Norman dam has been there a long time and it should be a simple matter to control the level of the lake. I believe the level should be 1,061-25 feet above sea level as registered at Warroad in the United States, and I cannot understand why such an expenditure is required.


James Allison Glen: This vote is to provide for the salaries and operating expenses of the staff serving the Lake of the Woods control board which is responsible for regulating the levels in accordance with the treaty between Canada and the United States. These regulations cover the control of the run-off from the Lake of the Woods storage basin. Ontario, Manitoba and the dominion, are all interested in the runoff and, as a consequence, there has to be a staff. Particulars will be found on page 147 of the main estimates. These show a senior engineering clerk and1 water and power engineers, as well as wages, including gauge readers. Total salaries and wages amount to $6,460, and then provision is made for cost of living bonuses, travelling expenses, supplies and equipment, sundries and field, travel and incidental expenses. It is necessary to have these engineers for the purpose of controlling the run-off.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am not opposing the vote. Sixty-two per cent of the watershed is in Canada and the remainder in the United States, and that country must also contribute toward the regulating of the water level.


James Allison Glen: They have a board also.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It seems to me that this is a large amount of money for such a small thing as this. The Norman is a permanent dam and should be easily regulated, in fact, the regulation should be almost automatic.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Surveys and Engineering branch-
168.	To provide for the expenses incurred under the agreement between the dominion, Ontario and Manitoba, confirmed by the Lac Seul Conservation Act, 1928, moneys expended to be largely reimbursed, $20,650.
John Ritchie MacNicol: This conservation is carried out in order to control the flow in the English river to provide power further down the river for the Manitoba power companies. When is the need for this vote going to end?


James Allison Glen: I do not se; any end to this; it may continue as long as the waters of the


John Ritchie MacNicol: The vote states that the moneys expended are to be largely reimbursed.


James Allison Glen: By the provinces.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Are we ever going to get
it?


James Allison Glen: We are getting it every year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Surveys and Engineering branch-
169.	To provide for acquiring flowage easements and discharging claims of owners of riparian lands in Ontario below the outlets of Lake of the Woods affected by regulation under the Lake of the Woods Control Board Act (revote), $500.
John Horne Blackmore: I find it difficult to understand how such a small sum will be adequate for these purposes. Would the minister give us a word of explanation?


James Allison Glen: This is a matter that has been in negotiation for some years. This will take care of any claims by riparian owners this year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Surveys and Engineering branch-
170.	Engineering and construction service, $106,880.
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I am not going to repeat what the hon. member for Regina City said this afternoon, but I heartily support his remarks in connection with the necessity of a government policy in regard to the trans-Canada highway. I understand that under the Canada Highways Act, 1919, the dominion government granted $20,000,000 to the provinces for assistance in building highways. At the beginning of 1936 there was certain assistance given to the provinces. As far as British Columbia is concerned, the larger measure of that assistance was given between 1929 and 1930 under what was at that time the Department of the Interior, in connection with the construction of the road between Golden and Revelstoke. Then the government made certain proposals at the dominion-provincial conference, which the people were hopeful would succeed, for the maintenance of the trans-Canada highway system on a fifty-fifty basis. Unfortunately the conference failed temporarily, and those plans are delayed. But the people in the southern and interior parts of British Columbia are concerned about this matter, particularly those who live in the mountainous district where road construction is expensive and the population sparse. They are particularly interested in the highway in British Columbia; but, because of their interest in that highway, they are generally interested in this government's having a policy with
Supply-Surveys

regard to the construction of sections of the trans-Canada highway in cooperation with the provinces.
I have here a publication issued by the public roads administration of the United States, and published in 1945. I shall read only a short paragraph from it, but I might point out that the whole publication deals with the urgent necessity for cooperation between the federal administration in the United States, and the states for the development of a federal highways system as part of their post-war reconstruction plan. The first paragraph reads:
The Federal-Aid Highways Act, 1944, is the third great highway legislative act in the history of the country. It marks the pattern for highway improvements for the next ten to twenty years. This act authorizes $500 million for the construction of highways in each of the first three post-war years, and requires the designation of two new highways systems, in addition to the existing federal aid system.
I have quoted that only to show how they are approaching this question in the United States, and how they rely on this means to develop their country. If we in Canada were doing the same thing in a proportionate basis at this time we would be voting at least S50 million from the dominion treasury to cooperate with the provincial governments in the building of the trans-Canada highway. I urge that the government give this problem serious consideration. If there is failure to have a successful dominion-provincial conference in the near future, I would urge that the federal government ought not to delay its plan in this connection. It may be that at the present time or in the immediate future labour supplies and the supplies of materials may not be available. I think, however, the dominion government should take some concrete action in regard to its plan for the future.


Mr. POULIOT:: I have just a word to say, after the appropriate remarks of the hon. member for Kootenay West. In the first place, I shall do for him something he has never done for me; I will support what he has said, and with great pleasure.
The question of the trans-Canada highway is an important one, because it involves the convenience of Canadians who would travel on their own territory from coast to coast. Such a highway will promote national understanding and better trade relations throughout the country. I am informed that there is no vote in the estimates for the trans-Canada highway. However, a large amount has been spent by the dominion government in this connection, but the province of Quebec has been the forgotten child. It has received the least amount for the highway.
tMr. Herridge.]
I shall not at the moment discuss the reason. It is a situation, however, which can be corrected. I would draw the minister's attention to the fact that one of the finest sections of the trans-Canada highway is that from Riviere du Loup going east to Edmundston. It is an old military road in which the late Hon. Norman Rogers was deeply interested when he was minister of labour. At that time the work was done under the Department of Labour, and not under the Department of Mines and Resources. He had a fine plan at the time he was transferred to another department, but for one reason or another that plan did not materialize. Now that we have in charge of the Department of Mines and Resources another genial minister who is a great Canadian, I am sure he will pay close attention to what was said this afternoon by the hon. member for Regina City, what was said this evening by the hon. member for Kootenay West, and also the remarks just now being made.
I shall not insist further, because I know, when the minister's attention is directed to a matter, he has the gift of remembering it. If nothing is done at the present time, then I would hope that next year he would not forget the remarks which have been made by several members of parliament emphasizing the necessity for improvement of that great means of communication from coast to coast.


James Allison Glen: Possibly I should point out that there is no vote on which we can discuss the trans-Canada highway. However, before leaving this afternoon the hon. member for Regina City wished to make his contribution to the debate, and I agreed that he khould do so.
The hon. member for Kootenay West has pretty well established our present position. The trans-Canada highway is not the responsibility of the dominion government alone. It is within the jurisdiction of the provinces. The dominion made its proposals before the dominion-provincial conference in connection with making its contribution to the building of the trans-Canada highway. Until arrangements are made with the provinces not much can be done. It is not within the jurisdiction of this department. Permission to discuss the matter was given really as a matter of courtesy to the hon. member before he left.


John Horne Blackmore: I associate myself with members who have spoken thus far on the subject, namely the hon. members for Regina City, Kootenay West and Temiscouata. It would be of value to the committee at the present time if the minister would give some

Supply-Surveys
idea as to the amount of money which has been spent in the various provinces on the construction of what might be coordinated into the trans-Canada highway.
I was somewhat concerned to hear that Quebec has been forgotten. If that is so-and I have no reason to doubt the hon. member for Temiscouata-then I think an explanation is forthcoming, and the matter should be rectified.
I should like to say a word or two respecting the trans-Canada highway from another angle. The other day we were discussing the estimates of the Minister of National Defence, and reference was made to the Alaska highway with which, of course, the minister is thoroughly familiar. I realize that that highway could be of great value from the point of view of tourists, and the point of view of the commercial use of the highway. If suitable roads were built, particularly from the western provinces, to that highway, it would be of great importance not only from the point of view of tourists, but from the commercial point of view, and also that of any possible emergency which might arise.
For this reason I am particularly interested in the trans-Canada highway because it would give a means of connecting up immediately western Ontario with the western coast, and of connecting the four provinces directly with the Alaska highway. Would the minister tell the committee why there has not been an item for the trans-Canada highway? I was looking this year in the estimates of the Minister of Public Works for such an item, but I looked in vain, and I do not find one in the estimates of the Minister of Mines and Resources. Could he give the committee some constructive information in the matter?
Before taking my seat, I would say that I do not like to see the good things the dominion government proposes to do tied up too securely with the contingency of the success of the dominion-provincial conference. Whether or not that conference is a success, I believe we should launch out with a bold policy. After all, the provinces are contributing substantially to the revenue of the country, and a development as important as the trans-Canada highway should not depend upon the success or failure of a dominion-provincial conference.


James Allison Glen: The hon. member asked me to give some idea of the cost to the provinces of the building of the trans-Canada highway. I have said that I have no vote dealing with that highway, and therefore I have no information as to costs which I could supply.
He has said he does not wish to see this matter tied up too closely with the dominion-provincial conference. The unfortunate thing is this, so far as that suggestion is concerned, that the roads are under the jurisdiction of the provinces, and that will be taken into account in whatever arrangements are made between the dominion and the provinces. The dominion in its proposals to the conference had included the trans-Canada highway. While my estimates have no vote for this purpose, the discussion may be of value because the hon. member for Temiscouata has asked for something and so has the hon. member for Lethbridge, and I am sure that something will be done in the future. In the meantime, for the reasons I have indicated, I cannot give any estimate of the amounts contributed by the provinces.


John Horne Blackmore: I earnestly suggest that the minister take this matter up with his colleagues with the objective of having an item in the estimates next year. I think it is high time that the efforts of all the provinces were coordinated with the dominion with respect to the trans-Canada highway.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Surveys and Engineering branch-
111.	Grimsliaw-Great Slave lake road-amount required for construction of provincial section in 1946-47. under terms of agreement with Alberta, $450,000.
John Ritchie MacNicol: I rise to support this item. It is the first time that a vote has been in our estimates for the Grimshaw-Hay River road. I understand that the federal government is building the road in conjunction with the government of Alberta, or is the federal government doing it all? It is about 272 miles of road from Grimshaw to the 60th parallel, all in the province of Alberta. But the province of Alberta has already built a roadway up there. I have been along it for ninety miles by motor car, and beyond that I believe the province of Alberta have built what they call a winter road over which they run sleighs drawn by tractors all the way from Grimshaw as far as Yellowknife. From Grimshaw itself to the lake is 272 miles plus eighty miles. That eighty miles of road is within dominion territory.


James Allison Glen: It is eighty-one.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Maybe the minister
counts one mile farther than I did. That would make 353 miles, and then 100 miles across the lake from Hay River to Yellowknife. I think the minister told me that there is no intention at present of extending the
54S0
Supply-Surveys

road from Alexander falls, which is on the Grimshaw-Hay River road, west around the Great Slave lake because that would be a very long mileage. If I had any suggestion to make it would be that you build docks at Hay River and use wide flat-bottomed boats that would be suitable in the storms on Great Slave lake to cut across the 100 miles to Yellowknife. This road would provide much faster transportation than going down the Athabaska river and down the Slave river because of the portages that would have to be made between Fort Fitzgerald and Fort Smith on the Slave river. I heartily endorse this vote, which will help to develop that great country.


Solon Earl Low: Has the minister given consideration to a resumption of the pre-war policy of contributing fifty per cent with the provinces for the construction of park-to-park highways and roads of that description in the parks?


James Allison Glen: I am sorry that I have again to invoke the dominion-provincial conference as a reason why that is not being done. Nevertheless facts are facts and one must recognize them. The position is that we have not adopted the policy formerly carried on with regard to assistance for these roads. The Grimshaw road is one that came under that policy before. We are building that road in conjunction with the province of Alberta and paying two-thirds of the cost. Two hundred and forty-five miles of new road will go up to the northern boundary of Alberta, and from there eighty-one miles to the Hay river. We will build the road in the northwest territories at the dominion expense.


Solon Earl Low: Just what progress has been made this season on the northern section of that road?


James Allison Glen: In the northwest territories?


Solon Earl Low: Yes.


James Allison Glen: We have made little progress in so far as actual construction is concerned, but the contract has been let, and they are getting in their supplies and equipment in order that they may be able, when the Grimshaw road gets to the northern Alberta boundary, to carry on to Great Slave lake.


Solon Earl Low: Has the provincial government completed its section?


James Allison Glen: No, not yet. But the two
contractors have combined to have it completed, if possible, in 1947.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Surveys and Engineering branch-
175. Hydrographic service, $794,350.
Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: This is the item to which I made reference earlier with reference to the charting of lakes. The minister may recall that I have had some correspondence with him in connection with lake Winnipegosis which the board of trade informs me has never been charted, and because of the lack of dredging in the last few years-I understand that dredging was discontinued during the war-I am informed that navigation on the lake is becoming dangerous. As the minister knows, the whole town depends on the fishing business as well as the smaller towns on the west side of the lake. Is the charting of that lake being considered?


James Allison Glen: Instructions have been given to get ready for the hydrographic work next year and the officers are preparing their material for doing that very work.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: Thank you.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Demobilization and Reconversion-Surveys and Engineering branch-
556. Employment of persons of the Japanese race and/or Japanese nationals, $240,000.
Lewis Menary: What is to be done with these Japanese? Are they to be permanently employed there? How many of them are there, and in what districts are they located?


James Allison Glen: This vote was used in 1945-46 to provide emploj'ment for persons of the Japanese race who had been removed from the protected areas in British Columbia. It is also to provide for the salaries of the engineers, and the vote will be used for the same purpose as last year's vote. It is not likely that more than $60,000 of this vote will be required because there is a diminishing number of these Japanese. It is just cleaning up the Japanese situation in these camps.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Demobilization and Reconversion-Surveys and Engineering branch-
558. Geodetic service, $163,100.
John Ritchie MacNicol: Does this cover the map portion of the whole geodetic service?


James Allison Glen: No, it does not.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Because we had another vote a few moments ago, No. 172, in which we voted $197,960 for geodetic service, and this vote calls for $163,100.


James Allison Glen: This is post-war work and is in connection with the mapping control programme.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Supply-Surveys
Surveys and Engineering branch-
777. To provide for the survey of the Yukon Territory section of a highway from the Alaska highway to Atlin, B.C., $15,000.
Harry Grenfell Archibald: Is this definitely to survey the route or the finishing of the route from the town of Atlin out to the Alcan highway?


James Allison Glen: Yes.


Harry Grenfell Archibald: Is it wholly a dominion project?


James Allison Glen: We pay for the Yukon survey' and the .province of British Columbia pays for its own survey.


Harry Grenfell Archibald: After the survey is through, is it intended to put the highway down in the Yukon section?


James Allison Glen: I am afraid that will depend upon the survey. We shall have to wait until the survey is completed and then arrive at a decision.


Harry Grenfell Archibald: Have any surveys been made south of there besides this one to Atlin?


James Allison Glen: Just Atlin to the Alaska highway.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Survey's and Engineering branch-
772. Geodetic service-further amount required, $6,100.
John Ritchie MacNicol: This is the third item in the last few minutes for the geodetic service. Is it extra, or what is it for?


James Allison Glen: It is for extra staff and for reclassifications of the present staff.
Surveys and Engineering branch-
775. To provide for the construction in the Snare river drainage basin. Northwest Territories, of a combined storage and hydro-electric development to serve the Yellowknife district, and to authorize the Minister of Mines and Resources with the approval of the governor general in council to engage engineering assistance and to undertake all related works by day labour or contract, $950,000.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I want to say a word about this. The Snare river runs through a lake or two into the Great Slave lake bay, on which Fort Rae is located, and this vote is for the coupling up or joining together of the Snare river and the Emile river basin. One can easily see by the maps that the two rivers in their watersheds are very close together. What is the reason that the waters of these two rivers are to be joined?


James Allison Glen: When we were approached
with regard to hydro-development in the
Yellowknife area, the Giant Yellowknife Company were proposing to make this expenditure and to provide power from the Snare river by three stages. The matter was discussed fully with the Minister of Reconstruction and myself, and we came to the conclusion that if any hydro-electric power plant was to be built in that territory, the dominion government should do it. We therefore decided we would enter into that project and harness the power there for the benefit not only of the mines now existing but also for the townsite of Yellowknife; and we have an agreement with the Giant Yellowknife Gold Mines whereby they are going to built the transmission lines in order to connect up with this hydro development. The amount of power to be developed there is not very large,
25,000	horse-power when the full project is completed, at levels which have been gauged by officers, not very much detailed, but they took that as the minimum, and the probabilities are that there will be more.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Where is the powerhouse going to be?


James Allison Glen: The powerhouse itself will be on the Snare river.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Where it discharges in Slemon lake?


James Allison Glen: No; that is a future development. The first development is being built now on the Snare river, and it is going to yield about 8,000 horse-power. That will take care of the mines which are in existence there as well as provide power for the Yellowknife townsite which is now being created. The contracts have been let; they now have their supplies in and they hope to finish that first portion of the scheme in 1948. We felt that this was a matter, for a large district, with a great influx of people coming into it, and the likelihood of very much more development in the mines, which required that the dominion, having jurisdiction over the northwest territories, should do, and in consequence the contracts have been let,


John Ritchie MacNicol: Who is to build the power line from the power site to Yellowknife, which will be not less than seventy-five miles away, and, perhaps more?


James Allison Glen: The Giant Yellowknife Gold Mines are building this transmission line, but we have the right to take it over if and when we desire to do so.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Is the minister able to give any information about the probability of developing power in the Lockhart river?
Supply-Surveys

Lockhart river has four excellent falls within twenty-five miles between the outlet from Artillery lake to Great Slave lake. One of these falls is 135 feet high. There must be a vast amount of power there.


James Allison Glen: There is no immediate project in view as far as Lockhart river is concerned. As my hon. friend knows, that is a considerable distance from the Yellowknife, and while it is true that a great deal of exploration is going on east of the Yellowknife, and, if one can believe fifty per cent of what one is told by the mining men, there is a very large field of development there, at the moment it is too soon in our judgment to enter into any project to harness the Lockhart river, although it is well known that in that river there is abundant power to take care of all requirements, at least in the immediate mining field. But at the moment it is an unproven field. There are many prospectors there, but wre do not at this time consider it a practical proposition.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Is the line from the Snare river power plant going to connect with the line from the Grayling river power plant, which now supplies Yellowknife?


James Allison Glen: It will connect up with the Giant Yellowknife property, which is operating with some power obtained from another mine and with diesel engines.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The Grayling dam is sixteen miles north of the Yellowknife?


James Allison Glen: That is the one.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I was not quite clear just how far the estimates for this job had gone. Is this the full amount required for developing the power at present contemplated?


James Allison Glen: The whole project?


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Yes.


James Allison Glen: No. This is the first portion.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Is there a plan covering the whole project?


James Allison Glen: Yes.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: What is the total amount for it?


James Allison Glen: The present programme contemplates the construction of a storage dam to develop 8,000 horse-power. This plant will be constructed by the department and operated under its auspices, and the amount involved is $2,800,000.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Has the minister an estimate of the possible income to be derived from this?


James Allison Glen: Rates will be charged for the power from the new plant, set on actual cost basis, and the rate per horse-power will cover overhead charges, capital investment and so forth. These rates will be set later. The initial rate will be about $95 per horse-power year.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Is anyone agreeing to pay this rate?


James Allison Glen: Yes; they are willing to pay it.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: But have they contracted to pay it?


James Allison Glen: Yes. There is no objection to the price. They realize that in the first instance the price has to be very high and that, as more users are found, it will be reduced.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: This is the first unit. Will it be self-sufficient, operated by itself in advance of the completion of the rest?


James Allison Glen: Yes.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I observe it says, "to undertake works by day labour or contract." You are not sure yet whether you will get a contract.


James Allison Glen: The contract has been let.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: There is a firm contract from the mines to buy sufficient power to take care of operating costs. What about return on investment?


James Allison Glen: There is no profit.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Is the government contributing this? Will it get only operating cost and no return of its money?


James Allison Glen: The cost will be amortized over a period of fifteen years.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: And the rate is calculated to do that?


James Allison Glen: Yes.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I understood the minister to say that this hydro power will sell at. $95 per horse-power.


James Allison Glen: Per horse-power year.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Yes. That is the way it is taken. I presume production will be around
7,000	horse-power.


James Allison Glen: Eight thousand horse-power.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That makes it worse.
That would mean $760,000 a year. That is a

Supply-Indian Affairs
pretty stiff price to pay for power. When we were buying Niagara falls power we paid in Toronto $18 per horse-power.


James Allison Glen: I am told they are glad to have it.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: There is a contract to pay for power at this rate for the whole 8,000 horse-power, and that is calculated to be sufficient to pay carrying charges, interest and amortization.


James Allison Glen: Giant Yellowknife will not be the only ones using it. There will be other mines that will be using it as well. Giant Yellowknife will have to have 4,000 horsepower.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indian Affairs branch-
17S. Branch administration, $61,005.
George Hugh Castleden: This is a particularly important item in that it has to do with the responsibility of the Canadian people toward
130,000	or so of our red brothers who live among us. These people have hopes, fears, and ambitions just as we have. The vast majority of them, when you go among them to study their conditions, are found to be severely subjected and frustrated in their efforts to do anything. They are badly exploited and greatly misunderstood in Canada. They are often blamed for many things of which they are not guilty. Our responsibility should go to the extent of training these people, informing them and maintaining them under a proper standard of living, giving them an opportunity to make that contribution to Canadian life of which they are capable. Some of the worst features of the whole situation are found to be that under the administration to-day the Indian himself has no appeal, no voice in his own affairs, no way of making his difficulties and trials heard, and he lives in a state of abject subjugation. The result is disease, want and suffering among these people, such as should not prevail in Canada, and it goes even to the extent of ill treatment.
In making a study of conditions among the Indians, and the principles under which we operate this department, I find that there are certain treaties signed by those people who, years ago, took over this Canada of ours from the Indians. They signed treaties with various Indians in different parts of the dominion. If you study these treaties signed by representatives of Queen Victoria and other sovereigns you will find how the government of to-day lives up to them. You find such flagrant violations of the treaties as to give us pause. You find also that those officials who were put in charge of the Indians have in
many cases dictatorial power and complete control over the life and existence of these people. The training of the Indian is incomplete. There is no real opportunity for him such as there is for the whites, and one is sometimes astounded at the apathy of Canadians generally to the conditions among these people. They are put off on reserves in sparsely settled areas.


Thomas Reid: They can fish in British Columbia just as well as the white man.


George Hugh Castleden: I know the hon. member is capable of giving us his opinion and I have no doubt he will do so, but there are
130,000	Indians and they are not all fishing salmon in British Columbia. They have no place to which to appeal to obtain redress for their conditions; there is no one in authority to speak for them; they have no voice. They have not the capacity properly to organize themselves. These people have character and ability. They have a fine attitude toward one another and toward life generally. When we have conscripted them into the army or when they have volunteered they have made good soldiers. They can be a great people; they have proved that when they have been able to escape from the control of the department. Many things remain to be done to make them economically sound. First of all, they can make a living. Where they have had an opportunity they have proved themselves to be good.
I am not going to deal with the troubles of the past or the record of Canada in the past in the treatment of these fine people. I am looking forward to what we can do toward salvaging them and helping them to make their contribution to Canada, and they can make a great contribution. Toward this end I think this year has marked a step forward. The minister in charge of the department is to be congratulated on the fact that, he has some new officials who seem to have a vision of what is needed. After some years of protest,
[DOT] a joint committee of the House of Commons and the Senate was finally set up to make a study of this problem. It was not a royal commission as we had hoped. I was disappointed that, after the committee met, it did not see fit to invite Indians to send representatives who could sit on the committee and give us some evidence of actual conditions of life on the reserve and what opportunities they have. After all, people living on these reserves under the Indian agents and under the control as they have it to-day could give us the best information. As proof of my contention that the Indians can give us the best information, on August 6 last we had before-
Supply-Indian Affairs

us an Indian. His story is of great interest and should be an eye-opener to the Canadian people. This Indian has gone so far and -has made such a success of his life because twenty-five years ago he made up his mind to escape from the Indian reserve and controls. He made a living for himself. He joined the army in the two wars and rose to the highly important position of being a brigadier in the Canadian army. As I say, he appeared before the committee, and I shall put on the record one or two things which he said which were particularly revealing.


John Lambert Gibson: They are already on the record.


George Hugh Castleden: They should be on
the record here; the members of this committee should have them. He told how his father started out on the Indian reserve at Brantford. His father was a carpenter, an industrious man who worked his way up. He obtained some contracts and worked in the Indian department on his own reserve. He said:
Therefore whenever he was awarded a contract, it was necessary for him to make an arrangement with a Brantford city merchant, through the Indian agent, to supply him with materials and cash for his work, to be paid back when the cheque came through, as it eventually did, in payment for the completed job.
He was talking about building a bridge on the reserve. He said:
During the summer of 1911 or 1912 he got a larger contract than usual, for building a reinforced concrete bridge which took some two or three months to complete. In due course the work was done. The cheque came along. The accounting was made with the merchant showing that my father had a balance due him of $1,600. The cheque was endorsed, and when he called for his money a day or so later, he was given $1,100 only, with the explanation from the agent that somewhere a mistake had been made. When he demanded to be shown where the mistake was he was put off. time after time, and never was shown to the time of his death. To get contracts, you have to do what is commonly known as "play ball" with the Indian agents. In those days, although the council of the Six Nations awarded the contract, the agent had to approve and recommend it to the then department before it was finally granted by them. I am not at this late date accusing the agent of theft. I intend only to show how some agents disregard the obligations which they should have towards the people they are expected to instruct and guide.
Then he goes on to show how he was denied an education, and although the Six Nations themselves passed resolutions asking the sovemment to grant money for the education of these men, it was turned down. He went to the department and asked why they turned down the request of the Six Nations Indians

themselves to spend some of their own money in educating these men. He was surprised to get their answer which was as follows:
It is no use sending you Indians to school, you just go back to the reserve anyway.
He served in the army, went back to the reserve, got some education and started teaching school there. He got some land under the soldier settlement board of the first great war and found that he would not be allowed to rent this land and continue with his work of teaching, in spite of the fact that he had been given the assurance that he would be allowed to do so. He found that his job was taken away from him. He then proceeded to tell the story of his whole life. Finally, in despair he became so angered at the Indian agent-he was so badly treated-that he decided to get away. This man was particularly anxious that the department should do something about their conduct toward the Indians in order to remove the antagonism which existed amongst many of the old people toward the administration.
There is also the efforts of the Indians themselves. Another representative of the Indians was a man by the name of Andrew Paul, who is the chairman or president of some North American Indian brotherhood. He appeared before the committee. He was chosen by the Indians to protest against the way they have been treated. Probably the North American Indian brotherhood was not constitutionally organized. There are difficulties in their organization, but it was the best the Indians could do. I do not think he himself had done very much in the way of preparing his work, and his evidence before the committee was not as good as that of the brigadier. At any rate it showed the efforts of the Indians themselves to get redress for their wrongs.
Generally speaking, the committee has done a great deal of good. It has done a great deal toward focusing attention on a serious problem in Canada. It has revealed serious conditions and has given a great deal of hope to these frustrated people. It has given facts and figures which should be of great help to hon. members in dealing with the problem of how the Canadian people are ,to treat their red brothers.
The committee soon realized what a great job there was to be done, particularly when they started to investigate some of the treaties and the problems of the Indians as a whole as they exist from coast to coast among the different Indians. That was particularly true of some of the Indians in certain areas who are not so well advanced or so well able to take care of themselves, or are so progressively

Supply-Indian Affairs
minded as the Indians on the Mohawk Indian reserve at Brantford or the Indians on the Caughnawaga reserve south of Montreal. This is also true of the Indians of the northwest territories in the far north..
The committee tabled its report in the house. I think all members were in hearty agreement with every clause. The first recommendation was that members of the committee should voluntarily visit, during the coming recess, such Indians reserves as are in or near their division or constituency.
The second recommendation was an important one and reads as follows:
That at least ten members of your special joint committee be empowered by order in council as a commission to sit at such times as the said commission shall decide at various places in the maritime provinces and eastern Quebec for the purpose of continuing the inquiry into and reporting upon all those matters mentioned in your order of reference...
The second part of the second recommendation was:
That the members of your committee be empowered by order in council to sit in Ottawa as a commission during the two weeks immediately prior to the opening of the next session of parliament, for the purpose of continuing the inquiry into and reporting upon all those matters mentioned.. .
This recommendation empowered us to hear evidence from the Indians and to learn of conditions among the Indians in Canada.
In order to deal further with the matter, they recommended that a small inter-departmental committee be set up to survey and report to the next committee with regard to that particular subject matter.
Recommendation No. 5 is that the director of the Indian Affairs branch, in conjunction with the civil service commission, take immediate steps to fill such vacant key posts as Indian agents and such other vacancies in Indian Affairs branch which in the public interest must be filled forthwith.
Then the committee recommends also that the Indian Affairs branch immediately undertake the drafting of plans, first, for the construction of such additional accommodation as is necessary to relieve the present overcrowding in certain Indian day schools and, second, to provide for the construction of such other Indian day schools as, in the opinion of the said branch, are needed.
This report was concurred in by this house, and I am sure the members of the committee would like to know whether it is the intention of the department to implement these recommendations. The committee was unanimous in its decision that this work must be continued at all costs, and even with the short time between sessions they felt that the work should be carried on them. If condi-63260-345
tions across the whole country are to be studied, at least two years more work will have to be done. I am sure that the minister will have the support of all members of that committee and most members in the house in carrying on that work.
There are a number of things which the Indian organizations across Canada have demanded in connection with the Indian Act which this committee is studying. It was asked that a commission be set up to get actual data on conditions, and they were emphatic that there should be Indian representation on that committee, that there should be a complete revision and study of the Indian treaties and that the federal government should be asked to take care of Indians seventy years of age and over in the same way that their white brothers are cared for.
They also requested that the Indian Act be so amended that no decision affecting the welfare of the Indians could be made without the consent of the Indian band. This would cover such matters as membership in the band, training and so on. They asked for properly equipped and staffed day schools and that assistance be granted to indigent, ill and disabled Indians. They asked also that steps be taken immediately to improve the terrible health conditions that exist across Canada.
I think the committee will approve the general steps taken by the department. The Indians are only too anxious to do what they can in bringing about a greater assimilation. They want to work along with their white brothers. All they are asking is a fair deal, the right to the pursuit of happiness, the right to make a living for themselves and the right to make the contribution of which they are capable. There is a new hope among these Indians and it is up to us to see that those hopes are not frustrated.


Ralph Melville Warren: I doubt if I would have been making this speech had it not been that one morning I looked out of my office window and saw a delegation of Indians coming up to the House of Commons. I was interested enough to visit the railway committee room and listen in for a time on the interviews. I am not going to repeat the doleful song of the hon. member for Yorkton. He has lived up to his record in connection with this subject as well as with others. I am going to tell a bright story about the Indians.
I was elected in the spring of 1937 and I commenced getting complaints from around my riding. I got complaints from the Indian reserve at Golden Lake. I visited that reserve on a number of occasions and found that

Supply-Indian Affairs

conditions were not too happy. I went to the department and made some suggestions. These Indians are located on poor land, but I suggested that this land be torn up even if the department had to purchase a tractor and other mechanized equipment to do this. After I listened to the proceedings in the railway committee room and heard some of the complaints made about the treatment of Indians in Canada, I took occasion to run up one evening to this reserve. Although it was a hurried trip, I was able to pick up a few things which were quite enlightening as to what can be accomplished by the Indians in the way of helping themselves.
I understand it was a Mr. Morris in the department who was largely responsible for what has been done there. The department did not accept my suggestion about buying a tractor but they did buy some good horses. These were not little, scrubby horses that were not able to pull a wheelbarrow; they were well-matched teams with proper harness. These horses were put in the hands of a man who knew how to handle them, who knew how to care for them, who knew how to shoe them, who knew how to keep their harness in good shape. The department paid this man a moderate sum per month to take care of these horses and the chickens and hogs that they had.
The result was that before very long they were able to tear up a few acres here and a few acres a mile or so away. They picked out the best land and they went to work in a cooperative way. We hear talk about Indian agents who are dictators, but the agent there is just the opposite. This man would not think of saying a cross word to an Indian. When they go to plant potatoes he does not stand around and watch the men and women do the work; he picks up a pail and goes along with them. The result of all this has been that, instead of importing almost 100 per cent of the food they need, they are practically self-supporting. A marvellous transformation has taken place in that reserve.
They built a community pit. During the season the Indians come to the pit once a week, and the Indian agent is there to hand them out their allotment of the different vegetables that have been grown. They can grow anything at all. The land is poor, but there is plenty of it and it is no poorer than other land that has raised large families. They get their supplies of vegetables from the community pit. There is one thing about our Indians; they will not take any more than they require.

Then they began to bring in day-old chicks. These chicks are kept until they are large enough to be shipped to other reserves, even as far away as the one at Moosonee. This means that Indians on these outlying reserves now have hens. Indians who never before tasted hens' eggs now have their own little flock of hens around their doors, and their own eggs. They raise their own hogs and keep a number of brood sows. These hogs are distributed among the Indians as they require them.
In the earlier days, when one would drive through that reserve, he would never see a supply of wood in front of an Indian's home, although he might see a few green poles. When I was up there this summer I saw in front of every home a large pile of dry wood. They get together and cut their wood, and by working together, sawing it and splitting it, they have a plentiful supply of dry wood for the winter months, rather than a hand-to-mouth supply of green wood.
After they have shipped their pullets to the outlying reserves, the roosters are left to handle. The hon. member for Yorkton has talked about the government taking care of the aged and the ill. But the Indians in the reserve in Renfrew North are not asking anyone to take care of their aged or ill. They keep those roosters until the weather gets cold. Then they kill and freeze them, and after they are stored they are ready to be handed out to the aged and the ill.
They ask no one to take care of their sick. They work cooperatively and take turns sitting with any sick persons night after night. They have organized a homemakers' club. A lady named Mrs. LaValle, who, I believe, is one of the finest citizens to be found in any county, has taken responsibility in this matter. Through the operations of the homemakers' club the clothing is sent to the Indian reserve. Mrs. LaValle, as president, gets the ladies together, and any clothing that is sent in is transformed into clothing for the children. In this way they are warmly clothed and well clad, without any great effort on the part of anyone.
Then, in these years of transformation numerous new homes have been going up. Instead of being content to live in shacks, many of the Indians are building themselves fine homes. These are not too expensive, because they cut the timber on the reserve, take it to the sawmill to have it sawed, and do the building operations themselves. The result is that they are building good homes.
It is interesting to point out that the Indians in this reserve went up the river and there secured a discarded lumber camp. They had

Supply-Indian Affairs
to cut it in two to get it across the railway tracks; but, after considerable difficulty, they brought it down the river, with the result that, when I was there, they were just putting the finishing touches on a fine community hall, and that right in the Indian reserve.
A new industry is being established on that reserve in the form of a sawmill and planing mill. One of the regulations is that Indians on the reserve get a preference in the matter of labour.
Perhaps one of the most interesting advances made by those Indians is that they have gone in for the raising of goats. They developed breeding stock, although not so much for themselves, because they have a supply of milk from the dairies, if they want to avail themselves of it. However, they are raising goats and shipping them to all the reserves across Canada. Indeed, some of them may reach the Indians in Yorkton constituency. These goats are taken, at times, by the nomad Indians who get into their boats in the spring of the year, camping here and there as they choose. They will tie the legs of a goat and put it into a boat. As they proceed, the goat finds no difficulty in securing fodder, and in return the Indians have a supply of milk.
We hear much complaint about tuberculosis among the Indians, and I have no reason to doubt the reports. We were troubled with it in the Renfrew North reserve. I believe there were half a dozen cases among the Indians in that reserve, but when they started to keep goats there were no new cases reported. It seems to me that is proof-and I am sure there is other proof available-that goats' milk is at least a preventive of tuberculosis.
Large quantities of hay are required to feed their goats. They do not depend altogether on what they can grow on their reserve. If they have not enough there they go out into the neighbouring country and buy the hay as it stands. With their mowing machines, their wagons and horses they cut the hay, buy it at a moderate price and bring it to the reserve. In this way they save possibly $400 or $500 in a year.
One-fifth of the population of that reserve entered the armed forces and made a fine record for themselves. That is a most creditable showing.
The hon. member for Yorkton referred to training. Let me tell him that the training on the reserve in Renfrew North is becoming inadequate, owing to the fact that they are so anxious to go to school and to keep their children at school. The result has been that they have to build a new schoolhouse this year, or double the present accommodation and add a new teacher.
63260-345i
If the hon. member for Ydrkton feels like complaining about the Indians I would suggest that he visit the reserve in Renfrew North and observe the happy faces and the general health of the Indians there.


John Lambert Gibson: There
would be no political value in that, at all.


George Hugh Castleden: You should travel across the rest of Canada.


Ralph Melville Warren: Following the introduction of family allowances, it was found that they did not want to keep their children out of school, or to remove them from school until they had reached sixteen years of age, because, by so doing, they would be losing that amount of money. That is one of the benefits family allowances have brought to that district.
I am not greatly concerned about the political value of the Indian reserve, but I know that one derives a pleasant feeling when he sees the change which has taken place. If the hon. member for Yorkton were to ask one of the officials in the department I think he would be told that, prior to the transformation I have been talking about, that reserve was one of the worst spots in Canada. However, this change has been brought about by work, by finding people who will help the Indians and work with them, and through cooperation [DOT]having them work together. I doubt if you could find a happier community in the Dominion of Canada than the fine Indians we have on the Indian reserve at Golden lake.


Mrs. STRUM:: I was very much interested to hear the fine report of the hon. member for Renfrew North on the reserves he has visited. I think it proves several things, one being that given a chance, Indians are people and capable of improving their own conditions if they are given intelligent leadership. That is all that we in this group have ever asked for the Indians, that we remove the stigma of colour, just as we ask that the colour stigma be removed from the black man because his skin is black, or from the Chinese because his skin is yellow, or that the stigma be removed from woman just because she is born a female. We recognize that these are people and that, as people, they have basic human rights.
It is interesting to know that' the family allowance has had a reflection in better school attendance. If we gave the Indians the old age pension, more of them might live to be seventy. I do not think the hon. member's idea of old age security agrees with mine. If all I get when I get to be seventy is some frozen roosters, I do not want to live to be seventy, and I want chicken before I am
Supply-Indian Affairs

seventy. The roosters are a good thing for children and middle-aged people too. Again I do not think they are old age security.


Ralph Melville Warren: When I get to be seventy I should like some chicken soup.


Gladys Grace Mae Strum: I hope the hon. member will be on a reserve too if old age pensions are still withheld from the Indians. It is a shame and disgrace that we should withhold the old age pension from any Canadian, most of all from the first and original Canadians in this country who should have first claim on it. I am reminded of the story I heard not long ago of an Indian who was taken to Hollywood and, after he was shown its wonders, the director said to him, "How do you like our lay-out?". The Indian replied, "How do you like our country?" Some of us seem to forget that this land was the original birthright of the Indian. We have taken from him all but the poorest land, and we insist that dozens of Indian families live on a very small acreage that no white man would attempt to use as a basis for a family farm. I have many Indians in my constituency. I not only visit them but I visit the Indians across the river in the constituency of the Minister of Agriculture, and they are not any better off than mine, because too many Indian families are trying to exist on a very small and poor hilly valley where the arable land is extremely limited and the equipment very poor. A white man would not attempt to live in a community where one biiyier was shared with forty families.
I was interested in what the hon. member said about horses. I like horses too and I should expect the Indians would, but I would hate to have to share a team of horses with thirty families, because none of us would have the use of the horses for a sufficient number of days to be of any use.
I think our whole approach to this problem is wrong, but any time that I hear of an experiment which has succeeded I am glad of it. I hope we shall have a change of attitude and regard these people as capable of intelligence and integrity and that we shall give them a chance to exercise it.
I had the pleasure of listening to Brigadier Martin over the air last week. He made an excellent speech and said the very same things that the hon. member for Yorkton has said. He said this too, "We do not expect to turn into white men but we are capable of becoming good Indians." I think truer words were never spoken. I wish the minister would see fit to put education into the hands of the province because, by keeping it under the jurisdiction of the federal government, you rob

yourself of the best educators in every province. The teachers now are organized. They pay into a superannuation fund and at a certain age they enjoy retirement and superannuation benefits. But if they go to teach in an Indian school they lose those years and get no credit for them, so that the good teachers will not teach on your reserves, because that destroys their superannuation continuity and means that they lose so many years out of their teaching life. I think we might well make an arrangement with the provinces whereby we would spend the money we now spend on education, in grants-in-aid on a per capita basis, and put into the hands of the provincial governments the administration of education not only for white children but for Indian children. I think we would have new standards of education in our schools and there would be more people like Brigadier Martin coming out of them, individuals in a position to give capable leadership to their own people. Brigadier Martin is an example of the sort of thing that happens when you expose intelligence to the process of education. We should have several of Brigadier Martin's kind in this house representing the Indian people. I hope the day is not far distant when Indians will elect Indians to speak for them and represent them in this house as they now do in New Zealand-where four Maoris sit in the New Zealand house and one of them is always in the cabinet because of a statutory provision to that effect. Sometimes the Maori has sat in the cabinet without portfolio, but one of the best ministers of health that New Zealand has ever produced was a Maori. I think people of the calibre of Brigadier Martin could very well sit in this house with members like you and me.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I understand that the only dental care the Indians are allowed is to have a tooth extracted; there is no dental treatment given. I think that is why so many Indian children and adults, when they reach twenty or twenty-five years of age have no teeth at all.


James Allison Glen: Prior to the transfer of the health of Indians to the Department of Health and Welfare there were dental clinics in many of the reserves throughout the country, perhaps not to the extent one might desire, ibut still there was that endeavour made.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Are there dental clinics now on all the reserves?


James Allison Glen: I do not know what the programme of the Department of Health and Welfare is.' That inquiry should really be addressed to it.

Supply-Indian Affairs


Gordon Knapman Fraser: That is now entirely under the Department of Health and Welfare?


James Allison Glen: Yes.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: And not under the Indian Affairs branch?


James Allison Glen: No.


George Hugh Castleden: I asked whether it is the intention of the department to carry out the recommendation of the committee and have some body carry on the investigation of affairs among the Indians between the sessions of parliament.


James Allison Glen: The recommendation was made and I shall endeavour to further it as far as I can. We shall have a commission set up in order that the evidence of those in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick and the eastern part of Quebec can be taken. I do not wish to enter into anything that has been said tonight by hon. members, because I think the matters they have discussed are matters that should come before the committee and anything I might say now might :be considered as prejudging what the committee would do. Interest in the Indians has been created by the sittings of the joint committee, and it is hoped that the Indians will ultimately take their place in the life of Canada that we would expect them to do. I think the remarks that have been made to-night can be of value so far as the welfare of the Indians is concerned. We shall hope that the committee will be constituted early in the next session, in order to carry out this work and to take care of these problems which we all know of and which we are all seeking to remedy. We trust that, with the aid of the Indian affairs committee, solutions will be found.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indian Affairs branch-
182. Indian education, $1,046,241.
George Hugh Castleden: In spite of what the hon. member for Renfrew North said about the rosy picture of the training and welfare of Indians across Canada. I find that, while there are 130,000 Indians in the country, our education and training of these people take care of only about 16.000. Of this number enrolled, only 883 reach grade 7, 324 reach grade 8, and seventy-one reach grade 9. I notice that in three of the provinces there are no grade 9 students. Has the department facilities for training these children, and what is the present condition with regard to school accommodation?


James Allison Glen: The hon. gentleman was inquiring regarding grade 9 students. Provision is being made for grade 9 scholarships of which Indian children may take advantage.
Mr.	CASTLEDEN:	But	there	are	no
facilities for teaching.grade 9 in the maritime provinces at the present time?


James Allison Glen: There are.
Mr.	CASTLEDEN:	But	there	are	no
students in grade 9, according to the last departmental report.


James Allison Glen: In the new consolidated schools which are being built in the maritimes there will be provision for grade 9 students.


George Hugh Castleden: But there is none now?


James Allison Glen: At the moment there is one school.


George Hugh Castleden: Has the department made application to War Assets Corporation for equipment and material to equip schools and assist in the building of schools, and are any schools now getting material from War Assets Corporation? I am thinking of material such as heating units, lantern slides, motion-picture equipment and other articles that can be used for education purposes among the Indians.


James Allison Glen: The director informs me that they have been constantly in touch with War Assets Corporation and have been successful in getting a good deal of material.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indian Affairs branch-
185. Grant to provide additional services to Indians of British Columbia, $100,000.
Harry Grenfell Archibald: I had intended to bring up several points as regards Indians in my section of the country, but owing to the committee being in session I will wait and see what it brings forth. However, I have one complaint which has come to my attention in the last day or so. It is from the Glenvowel corps of the Salvation Army, that has to do with Indians on the reserve in the Kispiox valley, just outside Hazelton. One mile of road is on the Indian reserve and connects it with the Kispiox valley road, and the Indian office . at Hazelton has been trying without success for the last two years to get that road repaired. The taxis refuse to go into it, and as I know the taxicab drivers in that part of the country, it must be in a terrible condition.


James Allison Glen: Is the road on the reserve?


Harry Grenfell Archibald: It is the reserve in the Kispiox valley.


James Allison Glen: Is the road in the reserve?
Supply-Indian Affairs


Harry Grenfell Archibald: According to the provincial authorities, the road is a federal matter, and the Indian office has been trying through the department to get it fixed. The Salvation Army car was broken down there and it has cost them $120 already this year for repairs. Last year they had to pack. a sick child out in their arms because of the impassable condition of the road, and I would think the minister, being informed of these conditions, would do something to help them out.


James Allison Glen: I shall be glad to look into that.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
James Allison Glen: Item 762 of the lands, parks and forests branch was stood over because the leader of the opposition wished to make some comments on it, Mr. Chairman. Will you please call that number now?
Lands, Parks and Forests branch-National Parks bureau-
162. National parks and historic sites services -further amount required, $21,000.


John Bracken: I did not ask that this item be held over in order that I might make comments upon it. I asked rather that it should stand over in order that I might ask the minister to explain, in not too elaborate detail, the administration of the lumber resources of some of these national parks, and what the government is doing to prevent flood damage arising from streams running out of these parks. In order to let the committee and the minister understand my problem, let me say this:
When the three prairie provinces became provinces, forty-one years ago, in 1905, their resources were retained by the dominion government. In 1930, I think it was, the resources were returned to the provinces, and for the last sixteen years have been under provincial jurisdiction. In the province of Manitoba one section of these resources, the land area now called the Riding Mountain national park, was turned over to the administration of the dominion government for the purpose of making it a national park. The resources, including this park, are now owned by the province. But this park is completely turned over for administrative purposes to the dominion, on an undertaking by the dominion that it would establish there and maintain a national park. I suppose it is from ten to thirty miles wide and perhaps 100 miles or more long: these are not the exact boundaries but approximately. This park is an elevated section of the province in the western central part of southern Manitoba. The ground is undulating and covered with trees. Because of its elevation, it is subject to late

spring and, early fall frosts. This combination of conditions prompted the government to make it first into a forest reserve and now into a national park.
The people adjoining the area are interested in two things, among others. They are interested in getting some of the surplus lumber from the park for purposes of build-and construction and bridge construction and so on. I want to ask the minister what the government's policy-perhaps his policy is the same for the other parks-is with respect to making the lumber in that park available, because now the people adjoining the area find it difficult to get lumber at all, and if they can get it from the park, and if they can get it in rather larger quantities than before, a good community service will have been rendered.	_ _
The other point I want to ask the minister about is this. Because of the large extent of that area, and because it is elevated, perhaps about twice as high above sea level as the ordinary farm lands of Manitoba, and because during the last half century some of the trees have been removed and the beavers have nearly all been destroyed-beavers which built dams that held back the streams-the result now is that in the spring the waters rush down the streams rapidly, carrying silt and filling up the ditches in the farming communities below and causing serious flood damage. The farmers in the municipalities just out from the foothills of these mountains have not only had that added burden put upon them; but, as a result of these floods, their crops have in some years been partly and in other years largely destroyed. It is possible the minister may have outlined his policy on these matters when I was not here, and I do not want him to take up time in repeating what he may have already said with respect to the preservation of timber and making it available to the people adjoining the reserves. But I should like to know what the government is doing to avoid the recurring damage year after year from these mountain streams which rush down carrying silt and filling the ditches which the people have gone to great expense to dig, thus delaying the time of seeding and often damaging and sometimes destroying the growing crops.
To bring the matter more specifically to the minister's attention, here is a typical request from a municipality with reference to lumber. I quote:
Owing to the scarcity of lumber it is impossible to repair municipal bridges as well as necessary repairs to other buildings, therefore we request that the amount of lumber allowed on timber limits in the Riding Mountain national park be increased and also that the area where cutting is permitted be enlarged.

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That is a specific request, and1 the minister can say whether he can grant it or not, whether his policy will permit larger amounts of lumber to each permittee, or whether he can extend the area where lumber is being cut. This is typical of the problems of the farmers and the requests from those out on the farm land below the mountains. This is the area where their crops, for forty years to my knowledge, have been frequently damaged because of surplus water running from this elevated section of country. I quote again from one of these representations from municipalities with respect to flood damage:
Our main trouble is the drainage maintenance. As you know, spring thaw and heavy June rains rush down from Riding Mountain carrying silt and depositing it on the low land, filling ditches, which means we have to be continually dredging. The cost is more than the municipality can bear.
From those two brief statements and from other requests, I think the minister will see what it is that I should like him to tell us- what his policy is with respect to making more lumber in that area available to farmers in the adjoining communities, and what the government is doing to lessen the damage that is done every spring by these flood waters rushing down and damaging crops.


James Allison Glen: The leader of the opposition has asked me two questions, one with regard to the permits for cutting timber. The practice in the Riding Mountain park is this. A survey was made by officers of all timber in the park, and that survey shows what was old and what was new, what could be cut and what should be left. That survey is in the' hands of the superintendent of the park; all permits that are issued are issued only for that portion of the forest which can be cut, and it is given to those in the immediate neighbourhood. When the hon. member speaks of preserving the parks, one of the greatest means of preservation is, of course, the timber in it, and therefore it is strictly looked after to see that the park is not denuded of that which makes it so beautiful in itself. Permits are given to those in the surrounding areas who are able to go and get their lumber. That is the policy of the department.
With regard to the flow and control of water from Riding Mountain, the hon. member for Dauphin has also been communicating with me, interested through the municipalities adjoining, who are suffering in consequence. It has been the subject of investigation by the engineers of the department, and the province of Manitoba is extremely interested also, with the result that the premier of that province, Mr. Garson, communicated with me,
indicating what was happening and expressing the hope that something might be done as a joint effort between ourselves and the province. I had a letter from Mr. Garson on July 5, in which he makes this statement:
My suggestion would be that the P.F.R.A. be requested to proceed with the construction of the proposed reservoirs and experimental check dams in accordance with the recommendations contained in the report of December 13, 1945; that your department provide the necessary dumping grounds as recommended in the report (which lands may subsequently be included within the boundaries of the Riding Mountain park); and that the province, in conjunction with interested municipalities, undertake the work of rehabilitating existing ditches as well as providing such additional ditches as may be required to carry the face water from the dumping grounds to a proper outlet. If you agree with the general suggestions contained in the preceding paragraph, I would further suggest that an early joint dominion-provincial survey be undertaken at the earliest possible date.
We had our officers in before this matter had been brought up by t.he hon. member for Dauphin or the leader of the opposition and they were making a survey, but on receipt of Premier Garson's letter we have now sent an officer with instructions to make a survey of the park and to advise as to what should be done to remedy the condition now existing. He will get in contact with the officials of the province of Manitoba, and together they may make recommendations for alleviating and controlling the waters that are flowing down and damaging surrounding farm property. That, report, I hope, we shall receive very soon. I wish to have it clearly understood that I am just as anxious to have that done as the hon. member for Dauphin or the leader of the opposition. I hope I shall have the report shortly and, in conjunction with the province, have something done to rectify what is certainly a grave difficulty in the way of farming around that country.


John Bracken: From what the minister has said, apparently it is the policy of the department to develop the forestry resources of that park to the maximum extent and allow cutting each year of only an amount equal to the' annual increment,


James Allison Glen: Yes.


John Bracken: And that is done by
issuing permits chiefly to citizens in adjoining territory.


James Allison Glen: Yes.


John Bracken: Can the minister say
whether the amount of lumber allowed on the permits can be increased or not? That is the request. Can he say whether the area to be cut. can be increased or not?
Supply-Lands and Parks


James Allison Glen: The budget will vary every year. Under the survey, the quantity of timber which can be cut and which is becoming mature as the years go on will vary every year.


John Bracken: I have asked a specific question for the present year. They are short of lumber, and they ask the question. I am not pressing the minister to state other than his policy. I want only an answer. A certain amount of lumber is allowed on the permits. Can that amount be increased beyond what it has been, or can the area to be cut over this year be made larger?


James Allison Glen: Not this year.


John Bracken: The minister's answer then is, no.
With respect to flood control plans, what the minister says is that they are investigating in cooperation with the provincial government authorities. From that I take it that the government has no plans now for lessening the damage from floods coming off these mountains.


James Allison Glen: The reason we have sent the engineers there is to advise us on what to do. Naturally we have no plans until we get the advice of the engineers.


John Bracken: It is sixteen years-no, less than that-since the dominion government took over this park. All I want to know is what are the facts. The minister says they are studying the question, but they have no plans at the moment for lessening the flood damage.


James Allison Glen: So far as I am concerned this is the first time that any complaint has ever been made of the water flow of the Riding mountain, The matter has been investigated under the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act, and, as I say, we are now sending our engineers there in order that they may consult with the province. The hon. gentleman asks if there are any plans. There are no plans until we know what the engineers will suggest or advise should be done. When we receive that we shall act accordingly.


John Bracken: It is not a matter of complaint; it is just a statement of conditions. I am surprised that the minister says this is the first time that a complaint-


James Allison Glen: That I have had one.


John Bracken: -has been made, if he chooses to use that term, because to my knowledge it has been referred to the department over a considerable period.


James Allison Glen: I said, to my knowledge.


John Bracken: At the moment I am not seeking to criticize the minister. I just want the responsible-


James Allison Glen: What I said was, so far as I was concerned that is the first intimation I have had that a request was made.


John Bracken: I should like, then, to take this opportunity of emphasizing to the minister and to the department that there is a serious problem in that drainage area below Riding mountain in Manitoba. How much of it is the responsibility of the dominion government and how much the responsibility of the province and of the people on the land itself is a question; but whatever the responsibilities of the federal authorities are, the dominion government should assume them and assume them quickly, because every year tremendous losses occur-losses in the prevention or delay in the seeding of fertile land and in the spoiling of crops which have already been sown, when these spring torrents come down these little streams and spill out over the cropped land. Since the government has no plans for doing anything now, I urge that they get out some plans at the earliest possible time; otherwise large crop losses will continue. The opportunity faces the government to help prevent these losses. There will be no criticism, but every credit will be given to the department if it will undertake and carry out whatever the federal government responsibilities are in lessening that yearly damage.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Immigration branch-
186. Administration of the Immigration Act and the Chinese Immigration Act, $218,866.
David Arnold Croll: May I say to the minister it is heartening to see that the vote has been considerably increased this year. I do not know whether he has made provision for sufficient money to carry him through. I had hoped that he would increase the vote even more than he did, and I am sure the committee would agree to it in order to ensure that he had sufficient money to carry out fairly bold plans.
However, I rose to remind him and the government that immigration in this country is still a front-page topic and will remain so until such time as we do something definite about it. There are no groups, or no organization or representative bodies, in fact very few individuals in this country, who do not think we need more people. We need them now. I do not suggest that the government is unmindful of the situation, but it is the government's responsibility to arrange the how and how many. The committee is well aware that

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the number of emigrants in Europe is not unlimited. In the main, those who survived were young people. These young people are needed by their own countries not only to rebuild but to repopulate them. At the present time we are merely nibbling at the problem, while other countries are stealing a march on us. Australia is up to her neck in emigrants from the British isles and Scandinavian countries. They have already made provision for some 70,000 this year, and 50,000 war orphans over a period of three years. Brazil is in the field for 250,000 from continental Europe, and so is the Argentine. I merely bring these facts to the attention of the committee to indicate that there is some hurry about this matter, because the best will likely be picked over.
Here we have a country with unlimited reserves and great potentialities, with an abundance of international good will, and yet for all purposes we are a land without people. It is well to realize that the first wave of immigrants who came to this country was for the expansive development of the country and entirely in the field of agricultural economy. It was an introduction of the people to the land and the land to the people. We are now ready for another wave, a second wave of immigrants for the intensive development of our resources, for the use of the country by the people and in order to be able to consolidate the industrial position which we now occupy as a result of the tremendous and agreeable job which we did during the war. Pessimists notwithstanding, I point out that there is a shortage and there will continue to be a shortage of construction workers, miners, people for the forests, agriculturists, domestics, and in almost any other walk of life in the country.
There is one aspect of this whole problem that we sometimes ignore, namely, the problem of emigration. As the committee well knows, we are suffering some cruel losses to the United States at the rate of 30,000 this year. This 30,000 is draining away our young and our trained. It is well for the committee to recall that from 1900 to 1945 some 5,000,000 immigrants came to this country. At the same time 3,500.000 left. An infinitesimal number went back to their own country; in the main the rest went to the United States. We seem to be a nation that is truly looking south for greater opportunities for recognition of our capabilities and for a larger material compensation. Too long we have been a feeder and1 a half-way house to the United States. We have, our country here to build up. Our destiny is to be the front door to the world rather than the back door to another nation. We have to make Canada more attractive. We 63260-346
have to replace those whom we have lost. It is necessary that we consolidate our industrial market; we should increase our home markets and we should populate our unpopulated areas. We have established ourselves as the first of the middle powers, and we should try to hold that position.
I think, when we discussed this matter last, the minister told us that we had to look after the soldiers and their wives. Since then, we have had an announcement from the Department of National Defence that they will all be back by December 1. The minister also said that we were short of transports. That may be true, but at the present time I think it is we who are missing the boat, not the immigrants. I recall a statement made by the hon. member about transportation. I know I did not come over on a Queen or a Lady boat and it did not do me any harm. A great deal of transportation is now available in the Scandinavian countries, and I am reliably informed that ships from Denmark and Sweden are making trips across the ocean not fully loaded.'
As far as administrative details are concerned, I think the department did an excellent job in arranging for inspectional services in connection with the 4,000 Polish soldiers in Italy. That was a quick and able job. These obstacles are gradually being removed, and I only repeat what I said before to the minister; What are we waiting for?
At the end of the war we had two opportunities.- We had the opportunity to export our goods to the world and we had. the opportunity to import people from other parts of the world. In some respects we have not taken advantage of these opportunities, and we shall have only ourselves to blame if we are failures in that respect, I am not going to burden the committee by repeating myself. So far, we have had an order in council providing for the entry of blood relatives. This was a humanitarian move on the part of the government and it was highly commendable, but the number of people who will be eligible to enter under, that, plus the
4,000	Poles who will be coming here in October, constitutes merely a fleabite in the number of people we need in this country.
I do not think we differ as far as policy is concerned. There are three requisites for an immigration policy. First it should be planned, second it should have selective immigration and it should be digestible immigration. There is no question about that. I say to the minister that at the present time the country demands that we wrestle with this problem and we cannot deal with it by shooing

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it off. I ask the minister to plan boldly as quickly as possible in order that we may take advantage of the people who are available before other nations step into the field.


Mr. KIDD:: Before the hon. member for Spadina took the floor I was going to ask the minister a question on this item, but first I think we should have something from the minister. Does the minister intend to make a statement on the immigration policy?


James Allison Glen: Yes.


Thomas Ashmore Kidd: Since we came here in March, immigration has come up on two occasions. The first was the citizenship bill when the minister made a statement about British subjects coming into Canada. The second occasion was on the orders of the day when the Minister of Justice, as leader of the government, tabled an order in council regarding the 4,000 Poles. I think we should have a sta+ement.
In what I have to say I think I can more or less answer the hon. member for Spadina, particularly with regard to British immigrants. There is hardly an hon. member who, since coming to Ottawa, has not received letters from boys and their families overseas who want to come to Canada. Before the minister gets into any scheme of European immigration, I would advise him to think carefully. I am going to deal with this question from a purely local point of view.
At Collins Bay near Kingston there was a fleet air arm school. During the period of the 'war, nearly five thousand British boys studied there, in about one hundred classes of fifty each. The first ten or twelve of those classes were composed of boys from the best families in England, boys who had studied at the best. universities and schools. During their stay in Canada, many of them married Canadian girls whom they took back home with them. Many of these boys now want to return to Canada with their wives. Within the last week I brought one case to the attention of the minister.
These boys are not Canadians; they are British subjects who have married Canadian girls. Many of the boys who were members of ground crews are the best of mechanics. I want to urge as strongly as I can that these boys be given immediate consideration. I will not enlarge upon the immigration policy, but hon. members know there is an old saying that it is better to have an empty house than a poor tenant. At the present time we should have selective immigration, and we should expect something from the minister.
[Mr. Croll.)


James Allison Glen: I did intend to make a statement, but the hon. member for Spadina got ahead of me. I may be a little longer than eleven o'clock and I hope I shall be able to finish my statement. As the committee knows, the present regulations and law concerning immigration are quite clear and they have been referred to already this session. In addition to British subjects and United States citizens, the present regulations provide for the admission of, first, the wife or unmarried child under eighteen years of age of any person legally admitted to Canada who has sufficient means to maintain himself until employment is secured; second, an agriculturist having sufficient means to farm in Canada; third, the fiancee of an adult male legally admitted to and resident in Canada, who is in a position to receive, marry and care for his intended wife; fourth, a person, who, having entered Canada as a non-immigrant, enlisted in the Canadian armed forces and, having served in such forces, has been honourably discharged therefrom.
Alien immigrants other than United States citizens require to be in possession of a properly vised passport, but by the order in council which I tabled on May 28 last, the door was opened and the following were admitted:
The father or mother, the unmarried son or daughter eighteen years of age or over, the unmarried brother or sister, the orphan nephew or niece under sixteen years of age, of any person legally admitted to and resident in Canada who is in a position to receive and care for such relative. The term "orphan" means a child bereaved of both parents.
Then there was a provision made with regard to passports. These people could not obtain passports because they were stateless persons, and it was provided that it would be sufficient to have a travel document establishing the identity of the holder in the case of an immigrant who had been displaced from his country of origin as a result of the war and who was not in possession of a valid passport. That is the way we have it to-day. It was thought at the time that that extension was warranted, and I thought so too. But the first thing dealt with after the war was the transportation of our forces and their dependents from overseas, and it was felt that they should have a priority over others. That was done.
I recall to the committee, too, that during the war we had, I believe, about 4,000 refugees who came from Great Britain and other countries, and ultimately we gave them permanent landing. These persons, while here, proved to be very good citizens, and many of them had given a fine contribution to our

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war effort. These persons-the exact number , was about 3,900-have been given landings, ' after being investigated, and are now legally resident in Canada.
In addition to that, there are 4,000 Polish soldiers, the investigating officers for which are now on their way. I believe they are now in Italy making investigations with regard to these Polish soldiers to bring them to this country. They will be apportioned throughout the Dominion of Canada, according to the regulations laid down by the Department of Labour.
As to these 7,000 or 8,000 people-well, no one will say, in answer to the remarks by the hon. member for Spadina, that that is a very large contribution which Canada has made. But at all events it is, I believe, a positive indication of the regard Canada has in this question.
Then, when we come to the question of the rehabilitation of our own soldiers and their dependents, it will be remembered that the Minister of National Defence (Army) has said that there were about 12,000 to 13,000 soldiers yet to be returned. Their dependents are still over there.


John Horne Blackmore: Will the minister say why these Polish soldiers were admitted?


James Allison Glen: The reason was that we were making an effort to take in soldiers who would go on the land, and into agricultural pursuits. We had many requests, and there was quite an agitation with regard to the Polish soldiers. They had expressed their intention most freely, that they were not going back to Poland, and that they intended to look elsewhere. Canada was one of the places to which they would go.
Our soldiers and their dependents were the first obligation we had.


Mr. COLD  WELL@: How many still remain?


James Allison Glen: Twelve thousand dependents, but my officials cannot tell me how many soldiers. But our first duty, of course, was to see that our soldiers were returned, as well as their dependents.
Now, with the passage of time, the numbers are decreasing. The soldiers are being brought here and rehabilitating themselves in the country. The numbers are lessening as the days go by.
There was another vexed question, namely the question of fiancees. Many of our young men are to-day anxious to have their fiancees come here. But priority was given first to the wives and children, rather than to the fiancees.
The whole question resolved itself into one of transportation. One hon. member 63260-346J
spoke about the numbers in England who wanted to come. There is nothing to prevent their going to our office in London, being examined there and settlement conditions investigated in connection with coming to Canada, with the exception of that one thing, namely that they could not get transportation. This problem will always come up when we are dealing with this matter. The hon. member for Spadina mentioned shipping from the continent. There has been an indication given that the Scandinavian line are going to send some vessels, and also the Hol-land-American line. But these may convey only a very few of those who are on the continent now. We have there about 2,000 dependents and about 2,000 fiancees, and, in addition, there are 1,000 dependents of residents of Canada to be repatriated. They were there all during the war, are still there, and have no transportation.
Therefore, owing to this extreme shortage of vessels, I have had to say to all those who are asking to come to this country, "How are we going to do it? We have no method by which we, as a department, can give priority to anyone sailing to this country." They must, of themselves, find that sailing. But when it came to the question of an individual who was not a dependent and not a soldier, that person simply could not get passage in preference to those, and none of us would have wished to encourage them in the slightest degree.
On the other question with regard to the opening of the door for these other people in Europe, they were exactly in the same position. Some of them may have relatives in this country. Transportation in Europe today is in chaos; there is no method by which they can be transferred from one country to another in the manner in which they could prior to the war. There is the difficulty in connection with the exchanges between countries; there is the difficulty of travelling in any one country.
The question came up then, of course, with regard to our medical facilities which must be on hand before we can deal with these. We are in a position now whereby, if we can get accommodation on the continent with respect to offices, we can staff those offices and deal with them. We have, of course, to have the consent of the countries through which these immigrants must pass. At the present time we are reopening the Paris office and also the office at The Hague. Perhaps in Antwerp there may be some chance later, of also establishing an office there. So far as the Scandinavian countries are concerned, the only method by which it can be done is by sending
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officers there in order to investigate those who desire to come. At the present time the * Department of External Affairs is dealing with the countries involved. They are seeking their permission and concurrence in order that we may open our offices there, and that the immigrants coming from those different countries can be funneled to those offices, inspected, and provision made for transportation to this country.
But that takes time. It is not likely that in the next two months there will be any degree of transportation of immigrants to this country from the continent. But I venture to say this, without even making a guess, that there are a great many in the British isles who are ready and willing to come, and whose settlement conditions are such that they could be accepted now, were it not for the fact that they cannot get transportation to come here.


An hon. MEMBER:: Eleven o'clock. .


James Allison Glen: May I be allowed to finish?
I shall not be long. I should like to proceed, so that hon. members may have it on the record and discuss it to-morrow.
Then, repeatedly we have been asked throughout the country to formulate a policy. It has been suggested that that policy should be a large one, and one would think that it must be done overnight. The government is fully alive to the seriousness and magnitude of the immigration policy. I believe that the country generally is fully aware of that. When it is suggested in an editorial that there should be selective immigration, and in the next breath that there should be no discrimination, then I venture to say to those who are making the suggestions that I do not see how we can have selective immigration without discrimination. I should like to have the answer to that, because there have been many editorials. I have no complaints against them. I wish to have as many opinions as there are in order that a worthwhile policy may be evolved. The government is thoroughly seized of the fact that an immigration policy must necessarily be stated sooner or later, and a subcommittee of the cabinet has been formed. We have had that subcommittee established for some months, as well as an inter-departmental committee of high-ranking officers who have been engaged in studying different questions dealing with immigration, and who will of course, give us the benefit- of their advice. That concerns domestic policy.
Then we have the refugee question. That is not purely Canadian; it is international in scope. We have a representative on the united nations organization which will be meeting in September. At that meeting consideration will

be given to the question of refugees and the stateless persons of Europe, and as one of the united nations Canada will, I presume, be asked to take her share of these stateless persons and will have to assume her obligations as a member of the united nations. So that we are dealing with the matter as best we can. Anyone coming within the admissible classes who goes to our offices in England and passes the medical inspection can come here, provided that settlement conditions in this country are satisfactory and provided that they can get transportation.
I do not think there is anything I can add except that I hope in the near future we shall have some word with regard to the setting up of our offices in Europe and some idea of what we may plan in the way of government policy.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Has the minister made his whole statement?


James Allison Glen: Yes.
Progress reported.
It being five minutes after eleven o'clock, the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Wednesday, August 28, 1946