1946-07-19

[Stage Direction]
Fifth report of the standing committee on banking and commerce.-Mr. Cleaver.
Twentieth and twenty-first reports of standing committee on veterans affairs.-Mr. Croll (for Mr. Tucker).


Mr. G. K. FRASER (Peterborough West):: Mr. Speaker, I rise to a question of privilege. Yesterday afternoon at the hour of 3.30 I submitted in the usual way eight questions for the order paper, but to-day, in the Votes and Proceedings dated Thursday, July 18, 1946, these questions are not listed. I now ask for a full explanation, coupled with the request that an order do issue that these eight questions be listed in Votes and Proceedings of to-day as being questions for the order paper.


Mr. SPEAKER:: I shall take note of the observations made by the hon. member.



TRADE AGREEMENTS


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Acting Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to table copies in English and French of a trade agreement between Canada and Mexico, signed at Mexico City on February 8, 1946, treaty series 1946, No. 4; also a trade agreement between Canada and Colombia signed at Bogota on February 20, 1946, treaty series 1946, No. 7.

Business oj the House


Mr. J. L. GIBSON (Comox-Albemi):: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to lay on the table of the house a petition signed by approximately 8,000 residents of British Columbia, humbly praying that this honourable house may be pleased to enact such measures as may be necessary to ensure that all people of Japanese descent be deported from Canada at the close of the present war, and that provisions for their acceptance by Japan be embodied in the armistice or peace terms.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. M. J. COLDWELL (Rosetown-Biggar):: May I direct your attention again, Mr. Speaker, to the matter of questions? Two questions that were permitted to stand yesterday have been dropped and do not appear on to-day's order paper. I think this will require some explanation to the house.


James Horace King: I have noted the observation made by the hon. member.


Mr. STIRLING:: May I ask the minister who is leading the house if he will be good enough to explain by what order or under what regulations a question which stood as No. 1 on the order paper for yesterday has been removed from the order paper of to-day? It was a question which had to do with War Assets Corporation.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I am not in a position to give an answer to the hon. member. The house is master of its own proceedings. It is not the government that makes up the order paper. I do not know the import of the hon. gentleman's question, but I understand it concerns a question which was on the order paper and which has been removed. It has certainly not been removed by any order of the government.


Grote Stirling: May I address a question to Your Honour as the chief officer of the house? By whose orders has a question been removed from its place on the order paper?


James Horace King: I have noted the observation made by the hon. gentleman.


Major James William Coldwell: Will you kindly look over all the questions, Mr. Speaker? It seems to me that there are at least two questions that were not answered yesterday that do not appear to-day. One was in connection
with radio, asked by the hon. member for Moose Jaw (Mr. Thatcher), and another was asked by the hon. member for Yorkton (Mr. Castleden).


Mr. HAZEN:: Mr. Speaker, may I ask a question for you to take under consideration? It is this: Can a question be struck from the order paper in consequence of a statement or suggestion made by the Speaker that does not amount to a ruling?


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. G. HANSELL (Macleod):: I should like to bring up a matter which I think affects all members of the house. I notice that there are thirty-one items on the order paper which still have to be passed, in addition to nearly all the estimates. May I direct a question to the leader of the house?-he is not in his seat, but surely some one will convey my message to him. Would not the government consider leaving over until next session some of the legislation that is now on the order paper? There are some measures which are not particularly important at this particular time of the session. Could not the government revise its legislative programme and leave some of the less important measures over to the next session?
Right Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Minister of Justice): I can give the hon. member assurance that the object he has in view is under constant consideration. It is not intended to ask the house to deal with anything which could be postponed until next session without injury to the public interest.
BEEF	.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. R. W. MAYHEW (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance):: The hon. member for Haldimand (Mr. Senn) asked the Minister of Finance (Mr. Usley) the following question:
The daily newspapers of yesterday carried an announcement that a revision of the schedule of beef prices and grading allows an increase in the wholesale ceiling prices on red and blue brand beef, effective July 22. Has any provision been made to allow those with slaughter permits where no official grading is possible to enjoy these increases in price?
In answer to the hon. gentleman I would say that the wholesale price increases on beef authorized to go into effect on July 22 apply to red and blue branded beef in all zones,

Weather Station-Arctic Regions
and also apply to commercial quality beef in all eastern zones. The special position of red and blue branded beef has been, recognized both in the zone price ceilings established by the wartime prices and trade board and in the support prices . established by the meat board. Apart from the authorized increases in wholesale prices for commercial beef in eastern Canada, no provision has been made to enable slaughter permit holders, where official grading is not possible, to take advantage of the authorized increases in wholesale prices of red and blue brand beef.



METEOROLOGICAL SERVICES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. GORDON GRAYDON (Peel):: I should like to ask a question of the Acting Secretary of State for External Affairs. In view of certain preliminary information which has already reached the public relating to the alleged request of the United States government that Canada establish a metorological station on Melville island, is the Acting Secretary of State for External Affairs in a position to make a statement to the house respecting the matter?
Right Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Acting Secretary of State for External Affairs): I thank the hon. member for letting me know in advance of his intention to ask this question. There have been discussions between the ' United States and Canadian authorities concerning the expansion of meteorological services in Arctic regions, and the suggestion was made that a weatehr station might be experimentally established as a cooperative venture in the region of Melville island in the Canadian Arctic. The proposal was that this should be a small civilian station. The government has not rejected this proposal, but has decided to defer its decision until later in the year.


Mr. COLD  WELL@: Is the minister aware that advertisements have already been authorized by the United States government asking for applications to work for tne United States in the Arctic regions of Canada? I have a copy of the advertisement upstairs.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: We have no official information about that, but it is quite possible there may have been some recruiting of personnel, because the matter of experimental work in the northern regions is one that has been under discussion for some time.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. WILLIAM IRVINE (Cariboo):: I
should like ta ask the Minister of Labour a question with respect to the miners' strike in -British Columbia, based1 on a message which I have received from the mine union in Wells. Is the minister aware that the negotiations now being carried on are on a local basis and therefore unsatisfactory? Will he consider instructing the commissioner to endeavour to -have the negotiations carried on on a provincial basis?


Hon. HUMPHREY MITCHELL (Minister of Labour):: In the first place, the Minister
of Labour does not instruct commissioners. I think that would be a bad procedure to adopt, because it cuts both ways. If the employers came to the Minister of Labour and asked him to instruct the commissioner there would be criticism from the other side. If I were to instruct the commissioner because of a request made by the miners, naturally there would be criticism from the opposite side. Frankly I do not know the import of the question, but I believe the hon. member is referring to negotiations on an industry wide basis.
, Mr. IRVINE: Quite correct.


Humphrey Mitchell: I cannot instruct the
commissioner. He is trying to conciliate a dispute, and I am sure we all hope he will be successful.



SHORTAGE IN VICTORIA CONSTITUENCY-EFFECT ON TOURIST TRADE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. C. W. HODGSON (Victoria, Ont.):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance under whose jurisdiction the wartime prices and trade board operate. In view of the fact that in my constituency of Victoria, Ontario, there are estimated to be over 40,000 tourists at the present time and we have had no flour for bread in that area for over six days, would the minister investigate the situation at once to see if something cannot be done? As the minister is not in his seat perhaps his assistant could reply, because I want something done about the matter this afternoon.


Robert Wellington Mayhew: If the hon. member will furnish- us with a list of the bakers who are without flour, we will do

Food and Drugs Act
our best to see that they are supplied, provided that they have not already used up their quota of flour. The quota is ten per cent less than they had last year. So far the average figures for Canada as a whole show that the bakers have gone over their normal quota. If the hon. gentleman will let us have a list of the bakers who are making this complaint we will see what can be done.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: Is the parliamentary
assistant going to look after the tourist industry in this country? I have many telegrams that I shall be glad to show him this afternoon.



FOOD AND DRUGS ACT


[Stage Direction]
Hon. BROOKE CLAXTON (Minister of National Health and Welfare) moved the second reading of bill No. 252, to amend the Food and Drugs Act.
' Mr. G. RUSSELL BOUCHER (Carleton): Mr. Speaker, I do not like to delay the house at this late stage to talk about something that is diseased or putrid or rotten, but those words are within the nomenclature of the bill.
I am rising to question the competency of the federal parliament to pass this bill. We all know that under section 91 of the British North America Act certain powers are given to the dominion parliament to deal specifically with matters apart from those given to the provinces under section 92. This bill, from the very best of motives, may seek to make a meritorious change in the existing law, but before making this amendment, which does go a long way, we should see whether this parliament has power to give effect to it. I have had the opportunity of referring to a number of decisions, and I think before we pass this bill we should have an opinion from the Department of Justice on the question of jurisdiction that it involves.
Briefly it appears to me that the only way in which the dominion parliament can have competence in a matter of this kind having to do with civil rights is by saying that this is not one of the specific powers delegated to the provinces by section 92 but is a specific power given by section 91 to the dominion parliament or a general power not given to the provinces by section 92.
In the case of Toronto Electric Commission v. Snider, 1925, 2 D.L.R. page 16, their lordships held that in approaching problems of jurisdiction in matters of this kind we should ask ourselves:	(1) does the subject matter
fall within section 92; and (2) does the subject matter fall within section 91 of the
British North America Act? If it falls within neither of the enumerated heads, then the dominion has power under the general wording of section 91.
In the case of the Attorney General for Canada v. the Attorney General for Alberta, their lordships gave this decision:
It is their lordships' opinion, now clear, that excepting so far as the power can be involved in aid of capacity conferred independently under other words of section 91, the power to regulate trade and commerce cannot be relied upon as enabling the dominion parliament to regulate civil rights in the provinces.
, The same decision has been given in a number of other cases decided not only by the courts of Canada but in some cases by the privy council, and I mention specifically the famous Wharton case, 1914, 18 D.L.R., page 335; Rex v. Collins, 1926, 4 D.L.R., page 548, and King v. Eastern Terminal Elevator Company, 1925, 5 D.L.R., page 1. In these cases questions of this kind came specifically before the court, and it was held that as civil rights were specifically assigned to the provinces to deal with, the power of sale falls within that zone.
This bill seems to say that no one can sell or offer for sale certain commodities. It goes further than that and restricts it to food or drugs. In order to make this act effective I think the question of jurisdiction should be examined very carefully. In my opinion provincial enactments are necessary to give validity to legislation of this kind. By the act very wide power is given to the dominion to interfere with the sale of what are called drugs, and perhaps appliances, foods or materials. The meaning of "drugs" under this amendment will be greatly extended. Explanatory note 1 says:
It is therefore considered desirable that such authority be given in the interest of the public. Any regulations made under this authority will, for the most part, deal with newly-discovered drugs.
That protection may be required, but I see nothing in the bill to restrict its operation to newly discovered drugs. It goes much beyond that. I would therefore ask the minister to indicate at least the scope of the amended act and the opinion of the Department of Justice as to the competency of this parliament to pass such an act, and state whether or not to infringe upon the rights of the provinces given under the British North America Act. We should be very careful about questions of jurisdiction.
Hon. BROOKE CLAXTON (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: Mr. Speaker,
this bill, which comes to us from the senate, has four sections. It makes what are intended
Food and Drugs Act

to be technical and non-controversial amendments in the Food and Drugs Act so as to permit of its being administered and applied to the greater advantage of the people of Canada. The remarks of the hon. member for Carleton (Mr. Boucher) relate I think exclusively to the provisions of section 1 of the bill, under which the governor in council may have the power to pass regulations "defining the conditions of sale of any drug". The Department of Justice has been asked for an opinion on the validity of this legislation and has expressed the view that it is constitutional.
The Food and1 Drugs Act has a long ancestry. It dates back to the Adulteration Act of 1875, which was incorporated in the new Food and Drugs Act of 1920. The validity of the act and of the regulations passed under it was only challenged in one case as far as I know, that of Standard Sausage Company v. Lee, in which the British Columbia court of appeal unanimously affirmed the validity of the legislation.
The position taken by the hon. member for Carleton is, I understand, based on the proposed "defining the conditions of sale of any drug" being too wide and unrestricted. If those words were taken without reference to the general scope of the act it might well be feared that the federal government would seek to regulate conditions of sale of drugs in a way which related to property and civil rights and not to any of the powers of the federal government. We have considered that, and while it is never the intention to do anything beyond the general scope of this act or of the federal government-that of course is unquestioned-we have thought that in consequence of representations made on behalf of the pharmaceutical druggists of Canada it might be a good thing to limit this power, since it probably goes beyond anything which we might ever expect to exercise. In consequence I propose, when we reach the committee stage, to ask one of my colleagues to add at the end of paragraph (kk) the words "in the interest and for the protection of the public health", so as to make it quite clear that this additional power to make regulations would be definitely limited to the general scope of the act; that is, to regulations defining the conditions of sale of any drugs in the interest and for the protection of the public health". In other words the Department of National Health and Welfare, as part of the duty conferred upon it by this measure, seeks to carry out the provisions of the act in the interest of the health and welfare of the people of Canada but not from the point of view of any commercial interest.

Whether or not that could be done by the federal government does not enter into consideration here; that is not the intention; and in order to show more clearly what is the intention than was done in the bill which was put before the house I propose to ask a colleague when we reach the committee stage to move the amendment I have just read to the house.
I may say also that after the representations wTere made by representatives of the pharmaceutical trade we had a discussion with them, and I communicated the text of this amendment to them and they felt that that would take care of the situation.


Mr. T. L. CHURCH (Broadview):: Mr. Speaker, this is a very important bill, and I suggest to the minister that there are three or four matters he might consider in relation to it. We have a committee of this house known as the committee on pensions and health. How does it come about that, on the eighty-fourth day of this session, this bill has not been before that committee? When the bill was introduced in another place there was a two-line debate; it went to a committee on second reading without any debate, nor was there any debate on third reading; then it came here.
Aou know, Mr. Speaker, that after every great war there is a deluge of medicines advertised on the market. The principles of this bill are contained in two sentences of the explanatory notes, which begin:
This1 is to permit of regulations being made for the protection of the pubic respecting the sale of any drug.
Nowadays most of the city papers are filled with advertisements of drugs, patent medicines, salves, and so on, any one of which is supposed to be a cure for ten or fifteen different diseases which have baffled the medical profession for many years. You can walk into a grocery store and buy them; you can buy them in departmental stores and elsewhere.
In 1927 the general Food and Drugs Act now to be amended evidently contained sufficient protection for the public, but, to quote the notes:
The present act limits such power-
That is, to sell drugs.
->to a substance which may be injurious to health.	.
One of the clauses refers to a commodity which contains rotten or diseased animal or vegetable substance. The hon. member for Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot) complained for years about drugs in liquid form-gin-which contain injurious ingredients, and on one occasion, discussing the matter with the then
JULY 19, i946
Food and Drugs Act
minister of health (Mr. Mackenzie) as an amateur to an expert he said he had had a chemical analysis made and it was not Holland gin and not gin at all.
Since the close of the war the act as it stands does not provide sufficient protection-

inasmuch as new drugs are being discovered which, until their full effect is known over a period of time, may . . . prove to be injurious to health.
Now. you have to read, with the sections of the act which the minister is amending, the regulations of the wartime prices and trade board. They passed absurd regulations which every drug store is compelled to carry out. What are those regulations? Well, if a medical doctor gives a man, be he rich or poor, a prescription, it can be filled only once; he has to go back to the medical man to get another order before the druggist will fill it. Sometimes these stores are closed at the week-end, and it reacts to the inconvenience of the public, particularly to people of the poorer classes in the cities and towns when a drug store is closed.
I cannot understand the present health act procedure. We have a committee on health; let us have a real committee on health, and do something, not come down to the house on the eighty-fourth day of the session saying: *"Here is a bill; pass it." This bill should have been properly considered by our health committee. May I ask the minister whether the representatives of the drug interests or of the college of pharmacy were before the committee in the other place?-because certainly they have had no opportunity to examine this bill.
Mind1 you, I am not opposing the bill. I believe the restrictions to-day are not what they should be. Drugs are being sold as such which are not drugs at all. Various mixtures and chemical compounds have been prepared and advertised in the newspapers, in three or four-line advertisements, "Communicate by letter or telephone with so and so, who has got a cure." We need an act which is a real health act to protect the public from all this quackery.
Not only that; a lot of things have been placed on the market which are poisoning the people-all kinds of moonshine. From health officers and from the college of physicians and others complaints have come about the loose way in which this particular problem is being handled. The time has come for a drastic national health reform, so that the consumer public will be protected, so that the people will know what are proper or at least noninjurious remedies. Some companies in the olden days used to get out almanacs at Christmas time of drugs which were a cure for
everything. If the Food and Drugs Act is to be properly administered there should be an attempt to deal with some of the offenders, and have an examination of some of the awful stuff people take which one hears about in the magistrates' and coroners' courts. The public are complaining about the different poisons which are put out-"hair tonics" and all that sort of thing; you can buy them right on the market. What is the department doing about it? The Department of Justice will not do anything. They refer complaints to the attorneys general of the provinces, and all they do is to refer it to the city and town and county police.
We need a reformation regarding the use of some of these drugs, the things which some poor people are drinking all day long, poisoning themselves. In fact many small children have been poisoned, because when the mothers and fathers are out some of them go to the cupboard and take a pill or something else of this kind.
Not only that, but I wish to say that if we are to have a department let us have a real one, not one which can do nothing more than say, on the eighty-fourth day of the session, "Pass this bill or leave it." Mind you, I believe the department may do quite a lot in protecting the consumer public. But there is no doubt that we should start on legislation like this early in the session. There are other measures which were placed on the order paper only yesterday. There are a large number of bills as to which we should have the opportunity of consulting professional men, legal men, physicians, dentists, veterinarians, and the college of pharmacy, but there is no opportunity of doing so here in the middle of July, when everybody is away.
So far as the principle of the bill is concerned I support it. Something must be done to curb the sale of the poisons which are now being sold, without proper control-I will not say in the drug stores, because the proprietors are good professional men who alike in peace and war have done laborious and efficient work-I do not know what we would have done without them-but considerable sales are made in some small corner general stores. Most of these remedies advertise in the papers, and you can get a bottle or two almost for the asking-three bottles for 50 cents while one bottle is "worth" 35 cents.
As I have said, the hon. member for Temis-couata started this discussion the year before last, to bring the Food and Drugs Act up to date, but nothing has been done to protect the public. I do hope we shall have drastic reform in this particular branch of health protection, so that the consumer public will be protected,
Food and Drugs Act

while legitimate drug stores are free dfrom some of Donald Gordon's regulations. One is that a physician cannot fill a prescription available for more than one order; he has to write a new prescription. I tell you, the public are sick and tired of that kind of bureaucracy, a year after the war has ended.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair.
On section 1.
Brooke Claxton: The main purpose that we have immediately in mind in this section is to regulate the sale of penicillin. That is already done in the United States and in the United Kingdom. The reason for seeking that power is that we have not the power under existing legislation and it is considered desirable by a large proportion of the medical profession, as well as by representatives of the provinces and officers of the department, that for some time at least penicillin should be sold only on a doctor's prescription.
Penicillin, so far as we know, is not injurious in itself, but it can be used in a way which may be injurious to the user if not used under a doctor's control. The reason is this: It is a very powerful drug; it is popularly described as a miracle worker, as indeed it is, when properly used. But some people have the idea that if they go to a druggist and buy some penicillin they are almost certain to be cured of any one of a number of diseases, including particularly gonorrhea and syphilis. Penicillin, used in the right doses and in the right way and at the right time, is a cure for gonorrhea and has a powerful effect on syphilis; but used in the wrong doses or in the wrong way or at the wrong time, it not only does not cure the disease but may itself set up immunity against the proper used of penicillin. In other words, the improper use of penicillin may not only fail to effect a cure but may prevent the proper use of the drug as a means of effecting the cure.
There are a number of drugs that work in that way and penicillin is said to be one of them. Further, the use of penicillin without proper advice may lead to certain germs of infection being killed by bringing into operation others which have been kept under control by the germs which are killed off. That has been pointed out in medical journals and in medical experience, and for these reasons we believe it is necessary for the time being at least to regulate penicillin and require that it be sold under doctor's prescription.
It is not the policy of the act to name single drugs, and we have not named penicillin or limited this power to pencillin because of the
LMr. Church.]
fact that exactly the same considerations apply to some of the other new drugs and also to streptomycin, and other drugs that may be brought into use from day to day, since the development of these new drugs is exceedingly rapid.
For that reason we have sought this power, which is along the lines of similar powers exercised in the United States and the United Kingdom. However, in order to limit it in accordance with the suggestion of the representatives of the trade, I am going to ask. my colleague the Secretary of State to move an amendment to section 1 of the bill.


Mr. MARTIN:: I move that section 1 of bill 252, letter X-9 of the Senate, being an act to amend the Food and Drugs Act, be amended by adding at the end thereof, "in the interest and for the protection of the public."


Mr. COLD  WELL@: What control does the government exercise over the manufacture and distribution of penicillin? I am in agreement with giving the government control of these new drugs. It is essential, and the minister is quite right that the unguided use of penicillin may lead to some other difficulties after the drug has been used. People may use it to heal a cut or a wound or to get rid of a sore and then find that a disagreeable rash develops. I have knowledge of at least two instances in which this has happened. A physician has prescribed penicillin for the healing of a sore or for some other trouble of the kind, and afterwards there has developed a serious rash. I agree that the drug should be controlled. Many drugs are very simple things. They do not entail a great deal of expense in the manufacture and yet when people have to get them on a doctor's prescription they often find that apart from the cost of the prescription-no one objects to that, because the doctor usually does more than write a prescription-they are very expensive. Sometimes these things are patented; I do not know whether penicillin is patented or not. I see the minister shakes his head; I am glad to learn that it is not. What control is exercised in the manufacture and the distribution in order that the public may not be victimized by the price charged for this efficient drug?


Brooke Claxton: The question of price
does not come under the control of this department, but under the wartime prices and trade board which has exercised close control over the price of drugs. However, I do know something about the situation and I shall give the hon. member the information as well as I can. The function of this department with

Food and Drugs Act
regard to drugs is to control their potency and purity. We have standards, usually international standards, which are enforced rigorously through sampling drugs through purchase at retail as well as through obtaining them from the manufacturers and wholesalers. This is done by spot sampling as well as by taking whole shipments of certain drugs. They are analysed by the department's officials, and if anything is wrong with them or if they do not conform with the pharmacopoeia requirements, they will be rejected and appropriate action will be taken. Therefore we do control the purity and potency of drugs. We generally get splendid cooperation in that respect from the manufacturers and the trade.


Mr. HACKETT:: When the minister says that the department controls, does he mean that it prescribes what shall be the potency?


Brooke Claxton: Yes.


John Thomas Hackett: Or that it insists that the drug shall be accurately described?


Brooke Claxton: Both. The potency must be as laid down in- the international standard pharmacopoeia, or as worked out by the department, and then the drug itself must conform to that standard and be pure within the standard laid down. We also control the labelling of drugs so as to ensure that where it is desirable that the content of the drug be accurately described, it is accurately set out in accordance with the regulations.
With regard to penicillin, this drug, as everyone knows, came into existence in consequence of the work of a great number of scientists and others, of whom the principal was Sir Alexander Fleming. It came into commercial production early in the war, in the United States first. In Canada it was and still is made, I understand, in three factories. The first is the Connaught Laboratories in Toronto. This institution is, as I recall it, the joint enterprise of the university of Toronto and the Ontario school of hygiene, in which the province of Ontario has an active interest, There the money necessary to put up the plant was expended by the federal government. The penicillin itself is produced at cost and was distributed at first for the use of the armed forces, and then more generally. The second plant in which it was made in Canada was that of Ay erst, McKenna and Harrison, at St. Laurent, near Montreal, where the federal government paid for the cost of the building and the company made the drug. The third place for Merck Incorporated, in their plant near Montreal. There the drug was made without any government assistance. At first the price was quite high,
owing to the fact that while it is not patented, it is technically a very difficult thing to make, and the techniques of making it had to be worked out. That was gradually done and the price was rapidly brought down until now it is approximately the same in the United States and Canada. Perhaps owing to the change in exchange it may be lower in Canada. I believe it is a reasonable price for the product in present circumstances.


Mr. BOUCHER:: Speaking to this amendment I wonder whether we should not commend the minister for it, but I object to the fact that it embraces much more than drugs. According to the minister's statement his object is to restrict and control the sale of certain drugs, or many drugs, but the amendment goes beyond drugs and includes foods and appliances. Apparently some protection should be given the public in that regard, but it seems to me that this section does not strike at the root of the trouble. If paragraph (KK) were worded to restrict the salability of drugs, appliances, foods and so on, a much better vehicle would be used to achieve the object the minister has in mind, and which I commend. But this amendment goes much farther than that. It gives power to define the conditions of sale of any drug. Then it goes so far as to say that any drug shall be considered to include foods and appliances. Under the amendment we are giving the department power to make regulations far beyond the purpose of the amendment. The amendment makes the general act deal with specific matters. I think the powers of this amendment go beyond what are necessary.
The constitutionality of the amendment could be raised here. I do not think the amendment proposed by the minister makes the act any more constitutional than it was previously. It still deals with civil rights, even though it purports to relate only to national health. Instead of tacking it on to the classification of trade and commerce under the British North America Act it is being tacked on to the rights of national health. You are going from one specific power given to the Dominion of Canada under the British North America Act to another. I do not think it achieves the aim behind the amendment at all. The bill should be referred to a committee which will not only appreciate the minister's intentions, aims and objects, but also the necessity of restricting the amendment to its intention. If we do that we shall be taking a step that will be advantageous instead of dangerous. I urge the minister to give serious consideration to this aspect of the
Food and Drugs Act

situation. I know every hon. member of the committee feels that the public needs and deserves the protection that the minister wishes to give, but it does seem ridiculous to ask parliament to pass a bill of the scope and authority of this one, simply because of the explanatory note which says:
Any regulations made under this authority will, for the most part, deal with newly-diseovered drugs.
There are many old drugs, and the fact that this explanation is given in the explanatory note does not in any way limit the scope of its operation. I earnestly appeal to the minister not to rush this bill through. I do not think we have to pass it to-day, and I would ask that it be referred to a committee on health matters which would give mature and extensive consideration to the object the minister has in mind.


Brooke Claxton: I can assure the hon. member that I have given careful attention to . his remarks, and to this point, as have the officers concerned. As I understand it, we cannot be very far apart. If I took his words down correctly-and I was careful in doing so-he said that this power should be limited. These are his words: "by way of restricting salability of any drug". The power here is that of defining conditions of sale of any drug, in the interest of and for the protection nf public health. I cannot see any difference n substance between the words the hon. member suggests we use, and the words we have used in the amendment.
This has been given most serious consideration. The amendment I have suggested has been put forward following representations from the trade. Representatives of the trade have expressed their satisfaction with it as meeting their point of view. I have received no representations from anyone, although this has been before the senate and has been a matter of public knowledge for about a month. It was discussed by the senate committee on health, and, so far as I know, no representations were made there. I feel the matter has been considered adequately, that the section with the amendment I have proposed does what we want it to do, that it is effectively restricted, and that it is in the public interest to pass the measure.


Mr. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Ontario):: May I add a word of comment to what the minister has said? It is this: I have listened to what has been said by the hon. member for Carleton, and I would suggest to the minister that certain inquiries have -been made. I know that-though why they were not made to the senate, I do not know.

This is a Friday afternoon, when many hon. members are absent. I have one in mind who I know would like to have been here. We have devoted only about fifteen minutes to this measure. Unless the matter is regarded as being entirely open and shut, and it is not worth taking another look at it for the purpose of trying to arrive at a view which would be satisfactory all round, I would support the suggestion of the hon. member for Carleton.


Brooke Claxton: As the hon. member for Broadview has said, this is the eighty-fourth day of the session. The bill has been before the senate for some time, and has been on our order paper for more than a week. I have received no representations regarding it from anyone. I do believe it is the kind of technical and non-controversial matter which, in the absence of serious objection from anyone on grounds of principle, should be disposed of.
I believe it is the wish of hon. members to dispose of these matters, unless there is some serious reason for not doing so. Apart from the representation we have heard to-day, I have not received any representations about this matter, nor, so far as I know, did the senate. So that in the absence of such views I do not feel it would serve the interests of the public or of this house if delay were permitted, unless some good reason is advanced for that delay. There is no disposition on the part of the government to push this through, but we believe it is in the public interest that the bill should be passed. In view of these points I would ask the committee to allow the section to carry.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: The minister has said that he has had no representations from anyone. I have one that I should like to give him.


Brooke Claxton: Is that about this bill, or bill 55?


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: It is with reference to both.


Brooke Claxton: This bill, too?


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: Yes, this bill, too. Has not the minister received a letter about bill 55?


Brooke Claxton: I never had one about this bill from anyone, except the one I mentioned before.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: There are references to the legality of it, and so on, in the letter.


Brooke Claxton: That is the point put forward by the Canadian Pharmaceutical Association, of which no doubt your correspondent was a member, and which I believe has been met by the amendment I have put before the committee.

Food and Drugs Act
361*


Gordon Graydon: Does the present amendment meet the wishes of the Canadian Pharmaceutical Manufacturers Association?


Brooke Claxton: Yes, it is my understanding. It was made in consequence of their representations.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Section as amended agreed to.
On section 2.
Douglas King Hazen: Why is the word "disgusting" used in this section? It seems to me that in using this word a great deal is left to the personal opinion of some individual. What is "disgusting" surely should not be left to the taste or fancy of an individual.


Brooke Claxton: It is just because we do not want to leave it to anyone's taste that we put it in there.


Douglas King Hazen: I suggest there should be a definition of the word.


Brooke Claxton: I believe I can satisfy the hon. member by telling the house about a case which was one of several which led to our asking for this amendment. Last year we received an application for the entry into Canada of a large shipment of peanuts. At the time we would have liked to receive the shipment so as to turn the peanuts into peanut oil; we were short of oils and fats. We found however that the entry of this shipment of peanuts into the United States had been refused on the ground that in the peanuts was a large quantity of rat hairs and rat droppings. It was possible that through hydrogenation an oil which was chemically pure could be produced. We felt, however, and I think every hon. member would feel, that if the public knew they were eating oil cake or other foods made from oil which originally contained a large proportion of rat droppings, they would consider that "disgusting". A condition of that kind might not come under the words "filthy", or "putrid" or "rotten" or "decomposed" or "diseased". I believe, therefore, that we have made out a case for the use of the word "disgusting".
This was not the only case. There was a shipment of orange peel, and other shipments of foods from other countries. It became quite a stunt with shipments refused entry into the United States to try to get entry into Canada, perhaps after some process in the intermediate stage. We certainly do not mean to make our country a receiving centre for food which is found improper for human consumption in any other country. Our standards will be as high as those found anywhere else.


Douglas King Hazen: Is the word "disgusting" in the United States Act? It seems to me an inappropriate word.


Brooke Claxton: No, it is not in the United States Act. This section is offered to meet cases along the lines of those I have described; and it was felt that to remove any possible doubt we should use this "disgusting" word.


Grote Stirling: Under what wording in the United States were rat droppings fefused entry?


Brooke Claxton: They have a wide general power in their act which we do not have, through the use of the words, "or is otherwise unfit for food." We are seeking that protection too. But in view of our particular experiences and the representations made to us by representatives of importers who asserted that these conditions would not fall under any of the other words, we felt that we should have this express power.


Grote Stirling: Would "free from impurities" be a proper expression?


Brooke Claxton: I understand that after the peanuts have been put through the process and converted to oil they are chemically pure. If no one heard that the product had been full of some disgusting material there would be no objection raised. We want to protect the people as far as possible.


Douglas King Hazen: In what condition does raw sugar enter the country? Would it not be excluded under this section?


Brooke Claxton: I would not think raw sugar comes in in a disgusting condition. This section must be read together with section 4 of the act, which states that food shall be deemed to be adulterated within the meaning of the act, and then these different things are set out.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 3 and 4 agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. BROOKE CLAXTON (Minister of National Health and Welfare) moved that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to present a bill to establish a Canadian information service for collecting and distributing abroad information concerning Canada and to coordinate and assist the information service of the government and
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[Stage Direction]
to provide for payment of salaries of staff and expenses of the service from moneys appropriated by parliament.
Mr. FULTON:: Is the minister going to explain the purpose of the resolution?


Brooke Claxton: I shall be glad to do that, either now or later. It was the hope of the government that we might have first reading of the bill and then have it distributed. We would then take up the estimates of the Canadian information service, at which time h-on. members could secure full information about its operations, and proceed with the second reading of the bill at a later time. That seems to be the logical way to proceed.
In reply to the hon. member for Kamloops I would say briefly that the Canadian information service was established on September 28, 1945, by order in council P.C. 6300. It succeeded the wartime information board, which had been set up on September 9, 1942, by P.C. 8099. The wartime information board succeeded the directorate of public information which was brought under the Department of National War Services by P.C. 3333 on July 19, 1940. That succeeded the committee of public information which was established on October 7, 1939 by P.C. 2654 and by P.C. 4073 of December 8, 1939. The heads of these services were successively Mr. Walter Thompson, of the Canadian National Railways; Mr. Herbert Lash, of the Canadian National Railways; Mr. Charles Vining, of the newsprint export manufacturers association; Mr. John Grierson, Mr. A. D. Dun ton, and the present head, Mr. G. F. Andrew, to all of whom we are indebted for distinguished service during war time.
The purpose of the Canadian information service is much more limited than that of the wartime information board or its predecessors. Its purpose as set out in the order in council is to provide means and facilities for distributing information abroad concerning Canada and to coordinate and assist the public information services of the government. That purpose was amplified by the acting Prime Minister, after P.C. 6300 had been tabled, when he said-


Mr. GREEN:: What date was that?


Brooke Claxton: That would be immediately after September 28, 1945. He said:
Those with whom we trade must know our country and its possibilities; those with whom we associate for the maintenance of world security must know with whom they are cooperating and what may be expected of our cooperation. _ In short, both trade and diplomacy to be carried out successfully need a background of understanding based on factual information objectively presented.
At a later date I will, if requested, outline the way in which information services were developed during and after the war, in other countries as well as in Canada. I know of no country in which a similar service is not set up under one form or another, and in every country that I know of the service is set up on a much more elaborate scale and at greater cost than is intended for the Canadian service.
The aim is to establish a small service as compared with the service in any other country, to be under the immediate administration of the director, Mr. G. F. Andrew, but with regard to matters of policy and major concern to be subject to the supervision of a supervisory committee. On that committee would be representatives of other government information services, as well as representatives of the Department of External Affairs and the Department of Trade and Commerce. There would be a staff at Ottawa and their first function would be to provide for Canada's offices abroad, wherever and whatever the offices may be, information about Canada. That was found to be necessary to keep them continuously informed during the war, and it has been found useful, desirable and necessary in the post-war period. The information service takes several forms. It includes the distribution of books as reference libraries, and publications. It prepares reference papers on matters of current interest, such as for example, the situation as to food, Canada's trade, Canada's financial aid to other countries; and it sends out descriptive booklets as well as a regular daily air mail service, a weekly summary of news, and a monthly publication. In addition it supplies our offices abroad, through or in coordination with the national film board, with films, still pictures, and so on. It also, of course, answers inquiries received from abroad, and tries in every way possible to make Canada better known in other countries, the need of which is agreed to by everyone.
This information is sent to the officers of the Canadian information service at New York, Washington, London, Paris and Canberra. The material also goes to our diplomatic representatives in the countries of the British commonwealth and in foreign countries where we have representatives. It goes to the trade commissioners and other representatives, and officers of Canada stationed abroad.
I noticed in the Montreal Gazette to-day a dispatch on the front page on the introduction of this bill which certainly is intended to give every appearance of being a news dispatch. The byline is from the Gazette's resident correspondent at Ottawa, July 18. Then fol-

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lows what appears to be a news dispatch, but it has a serious misstatement of fact and several statements of editorial opinion. One of the things stated there is:
External Affairs has publicity men attached to many of its embassies and legations in other countries.
It states that therefore the Canadian information service is not necessary. The only publicity men, as they are called here, attached to embassies or legations are officers of the Canadian information service. External Affairs has no other public relations or information people in its service. When that is said it meets very largely the point which the Gazette correspondent or the Gazette itself tried to make.
Similar services are considered to be necessary by the United Kingdom, the United States, France, Australia, New Zealand and every other country that I know of. All the countries I have named have information representatives in Canada, at Ottawa or elsewhere. I have fairly full information about the size of the offices, the size of the staffs, and the amount of the expenditures of many of these information services of other countries. Of course we are anxious to set up this service, as economically as it could be done having regard to the needs of the Canadian people. I can assure the house that I know of no more modest service than that which we seek to set up,, and I know of none in which the salaries are more reasonable and the total over-all expenditure is as small.
I have dealt with the primary function of the information service. But it also has another function, and that is coordinating and assisting the other information services of the government in Canada. It has done that. Perhaps I should give a concrete example. There is an interdepartmental committee called the rehabilitation committee. It is furnished with a chairman and a secretary as well as with expert assistance by the Canadian information service. The food information committee is another example, and I could give others. That is the kind of thing that has been done by way of coordinating and assisting other Canadian information services.
The third function of the Canadian information service is to act in connection with Canada's attendance and participation in international conferences. It has been found by every country that it is desirable at all the major conferences to have attached to each delegation an information officer to arrange for press conferences, for the preparation and release of material to the press, for the preparation of background material, and that kind of thing, so as to ensure that so far 63260-228
as possible the reports of material of primary interest to the country concerned-in this case Canada and its citizens-are made continuously available by the delegation through the ordinary press agencies for distribution and dissemination at home. Such an information officer attached to a delegation is able to advise the delegation on presenting its material, on meeting the press, and on other questions sometimes quite technical, which things are necessary if a country is to secure an adequate dissemination of information about its position.
The fourth function of the Canadian information service is to act as the information bureau or supply the officers for the information bureau at international conferences held in Canada. I have in mind not only the two Quebec conferences but also the second meeting of the council of UNRRA, the meeting of the food conference, the meeting of PICAO and others, where the Canadian information service provided what was in essence the international staff necessary to discharge the informational needs of a great international conference.
Another function of the service is to arrange for foregin visitors to come to Canada and to see that as far as possible while in Canada they receive whatever facilities may be necessary to enable them to see what they want to see of our country. That kind of service is now furnished by every government. We have found it necessary to do it, and it is necessary that it should be done by a special service.
Finally there has been set up, as hon. members know, the united nations educational, scientific and cultural organization-UNESCO, as it is called-which was the result of meetings held at London in November, 1945. Canada signed the convention, and some sixteen countries have now ratified it. Canada no doubt will ratify it in due course, and it will be necessary then for some agency in Canada to act as the corresponding unit, the funnel through which there will be two-way communication between UNESCO and the proper agencies in Canada; and that will be partly the Department of External Affairs, and partly the Canadian information service.
The bill, which I hope will secure first reading, and will be distributed soon, is very much along the lines of the order in council setting up the Canadian information service, under which it has been working since it was set up some months ago. As I have said, it is the hope of the government that if first reading is secured for this bill and the bill is distributed, at once we shall move into committee of supply, and there I shall be glad indeed to deal with the estimates of the privy council which

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relate to the Canadian information service and answer all questions which hon. members may put.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, the minister has given us a complete picture of the operation of the Canadian information service and has outlined in general terms the methods by which it is proposed that the service should function.
With respect to his suggestion as to the method of procedure from now on, with deference to the minister, and although we appreciate the anxiety to get through the business of the house, I feel nevertheless that our greatest anxiety should be to discharge efficiently our task here as an opposition to criticize measures brought before us and thereby to help the government more efficiently to discharge its task as a government. We do not feel that to accede to the suggestion put forth by the minister would in any great measure expedite the business of the house, and certainly it would not enable us to make that full and searching examination of this measure which we feel it to be our duty to make.
Speaking of the way in which this Canadian information service will operate, the minister said that its task would be to spread information of Canada to foreign countries, and in particular to spread information about Canada's efforts with regard to food and financial assistance to other countries.


Brooke Claxton: Oh, I did not say that at all.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I understood the minister to say that.


Brooke Claxton: I gave food and financial assistance as examples of the kind of subjects on which reference papers were prepared in Canada and sent abroad. It is by no means limited to that.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I was not suggesting it was limited to that. I was merely pointing out-


Brooke Claxton: That was by way of example.


Edmund Davie Fulton: -that that was one of the functions, to assist in the dissemination of information on these heads. In this connection I should like to say that criticism has been voiced that this service it is not operating efficiently, is not discharging one of the legitimate functions which, if it is felt to be essential at all, the people would like it to discharge.
I want to make the reservation here that we do not accept the necessity or the desirability of having this service. We intend to question it, and to question whether it is discharg-

ing its duties efficiently. But if it exists at all we feel it should render some service, and we wish to find out whether we are getting value for the money which is being spent.
I have before me an editorial which appeared in the Sherbrooke Daily Record; and in order to save, possibly, somebody on the other side the trouble, I will say now that I avow quite frankly the paper is not friendly to the government. It does, however, reproduce some facts from independent observers and these should be brought to the minister's attention. It is in the issue of May 8 of this year and appears under the heading, "Canadian Publicity in England". It begins:
In spite of the expenditures incurred by the federal government to support the Canadian information service-


Brooke Claxton: I do not like to interrupt the hon. gentleman but I would raise a point of order. Some time ago I endeavoured to read from an editorial an extract with regard to some remarks of the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard, and a point of order was raised by the hon. member for Peel that I must not read from a newspaper editorial. I thought it was a curious point of order, but I was told by the Chairman-we were in committee-that I could not read from the editorial. Having been told that once, I should UKe to ask Your Honour whether that is permitted or not.


Edmund Davie Fulton: To save Your Honour the necessity of ruling. I will refrain from reading the editorial to which I have referred. I would point out, though, that we are not in committee at the moment, and further that it has been general practice to refer to editorials. However, the minister will probably say that if one side is prevented from doing it, so should the other be.


Brooke Claxton: I would rather see everyone do it.


Edmund Davie Fulton: In any event, it is not necessary for me to read the editorial. The criticism is that of a newspaper writer returning from England and therefore it was based on personal observation. The criticism was to the effect that the British people were under the impression that they were still getting the bulk of their bacon imports from Denmark, whereas in fact the bulk of those imports were coming from Canada. The journalist remarks-and his remarks were quoted-that it was a pity that the Canadian information service, which was spending the people's money, did not tackle that problem in realistic fashion to bring to the people not only of England but of the continent of Europe the great part which Canada was playing in con-

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tributions to UNRRA by way of food and financial relief. If have this service at all-and this is our first criticism-it is not discharging its functions in an efficient manner in the interests of Canada; in other words, the people of Canada do not get value for their money.
I hope the minister will not say that my suggestion means that we are urging him to spend more money. We are not, and we shall point out before we are through that we want a full explanation as to why it is necessary to spend as much as we are spending on this service and whether we need the service in its present form. However, that point is one that can be discussed later.
To our minds, the main question is whether the service is essential. We have various other departments of government with agencies in foreign countries, and we have departments of government here which operate bureaux in foreign countries, all of which spend money on advertising, public relations, and similar work abroad. This brings to mind the question whether we need to spend a large amount for a separate body under a separate minister to provide the same or a similar service. There are several general questions, and objections of a general nature which I think should be brought forward.
The minister listed several functions performed by the Canadian information service, some of them very unconvincing as arguments in support of the need of this service. I propose to mention several objections to and criticisms of the general idea of carrying on this service. In the first place, as the minister has pointed out, this is a descendant of a war-time service, the wartime information board, a service which was set up under emergency legislation and was presumed at that time to be intended to last only for the duration of the war. I suggest that the people of Canada were entitled to assume that the board would come to an end with the end of the war and that the money spent on that board would thereby be saved.
May I remark that the decision to continue this function, under the head of Canadian information service, is illustrative of the general trend which we have observed, whereby establishments set up to deal with emergency situations tend to become permanent. It is another illustration of the general trend of expenditures, instituted and justified on the grounds of emergency, becoming established, set and taken as a matter of course and so continued when the emergency has passed, and in fact even increased.
If we had in this country plenty of money to spend on old age pensions, plenty to spend on social security, and sufficient revenue to justify a cut in taxes, then the position would be quite different. But we heard the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley) say that this group here had failed to suggest ways in which expenditures could be reduced. We heard him say that until we could reduce expenditures we could not reduce taxation. That in itself suggests the principle which the government should bear in mind in carrying on these services, and unless they suggest much more vital and important reasons than the minister has given this afternoon, we on this side will remain entirely unconvinced of the necessity of this service and of the justification for spending money on it.
I may interject here that the item in the estimates this year, at page 73 of the main estimates, amounts to $640,700. That is item 591. That means well over half a million dollars. On the face of it, we are not convinced that this service is essential or that the money that is spent can be justified. If it could be shown that the service bore a relation to vital policy which the government was concerned to put over in countries overseas, such as an immigration policy for the encouragement of immigration on any general scale, which could be called a policy, it would be a different matter, and still I should say that it would require careful proof whether a separate board was necessary under those circumstances. But we have had no proof that it is related to some specific purpose. We have had merely a general statement that it will assist other departments in the discharge of their existing functions.
In that connection, I would point out something in regard to which the house and the country should have some information. The Department of Trade and Commerce, as will be seen at page 51 of the main estimates, is spending $459,000 this year on trade publicity and advertising in Canada and abroad, and I should wish to be conclusively shown that there was no overlapping before I would suggest that we cease criticizing this large expenditure which we are asked to continue under this bill. The Department of Trade and Commerce is also spending $650,000 to assist in promoting tourist business in Canada. Possibly the minister can tell us how much of that is spent outside the country, for it is unlikely that all that money is spent in Canada. I should imagine that a good deal of it is spent in advertising abroad. However, that point can be covered later. Here at any rate we have $650,000 plus $459,000, or over a million dollars being spent
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by the Department of Trade and Commerce alone in advertising Canada or in assisting ;he tourist industry.
Then, in the Department of External Affairs we have an item for $2,436,325 for representation abroad. It may be that at present none of the persons paid by the money voted in that item is charged with responsibility for advertising Canada abroad, but I would suggest that these officials, together with the trade and commerce department, have an extensive programme in contemplation. It might be more efficient to give them the function of advertising Canada abroad, and we might discharge that function at the cost of a great deal less money than is involved in setting up a separate branch for Canadian information services and voting it over $600,000.
While we are on this matter, may I refer to a return which was tabled, being sessional paper 137 of March 15, 1946, in reply to a motion by the hon. member for Eglinton (Mr. Fleming), who asked: (a) How much money was expended by us through the wartime information board, by years, while it was in existence? (b) How much thereof was paid to persons outside Canada, and for what, and who were those persons? The return shows that for the year 1942-43 the total spent by and through wartime information board was $1,473,524; in 1943-44, $759,000-1 am giving the round figures-in 1944-45, $1,700,000; in 1945-46, up to September 28, when the board was transferred to Canadian information service, $754,000. That represents a total in those four years of $4,687,267.39, of which, in the same period, a grand total of $37,456.49 was paid to persons other than Canadians. I put these figures on the record to show what has been the scale of expenditures in the past.
I should also like to refer to another sessional paper in which the question was asked as to the estimated monthly expenditure of Canadian information service

that is, the present service-and of what items that expenditure consisted. The answer was that the monthly expenditure was $53,714. So that we are spending $53,714 a month on what would appear to be on the face of it a questionable service. The necessity for it is questionable, and it may well be that the personnel could be replaced by other bodies already in existence.
Another objection which we have to this Canadian information service is that it is another of those government bureaux concerning whose activities we have experienced great difficulty in obtaining information. We have

had several instances of this sort in this house in the last day or two. I will not refer to them because they did not occur during this debate, but I can refer to something that took place in' connection with this very service last year, when the hon. member for Eglinton moved for a copy of all minutes of proceedings of the committee supervising the Canadian information service. What took place is to be found at page 2118 of Hansard of November 14, 1945. The minister refused to produce the minutes of proceedings on the grounds of privilege. The hon. member for Eglinton said:
I am not asking in the motion for the production of reports to the minister or for opinions given to him by this committee. What the motion asks for is a copy of the minutes and proceedings of the committee. If you look at the order in council referred to by the minister you will see that this is an administrative body. It is charged with carrying out the provisions of the order P.C. 6390.
I might point out, Mr. Speaker, that that order is in almost exactly the same words as the present resolution. The order read that the service was established for the purpose of providing "means and facilities for distributing abroad information concerning Canada and for coordinating and assisting the public information service of the government." I think the point made on that occasion by the hon. member was a good one. It was not a confidential document in the way of a report he was asking for; he was asking for minutes and proceedings of the committee after it had met in order that we might know what was the policy of this service. The hon. member went on to say at page 2119 of Hansard:
My next point in reply to the minister is that parliament has the right and the duty to know what the Canadian information service is doing and is planning to do, and the minutes of the supervising committee contain that essential information. Therefore they must be available to parliament, if parliament is to be in a position to do its duty.
The minister, however, supported by the Minister of Finance, then Acting Prime Minister, maintained his position. The matter was put to a vote in the house and the motion was defeated by the usual government majority, the vote being 85 to 105. Therefore I say this appears to be merely another of these government boards with regard to which parliament is to be denied information. On that ground I question very much the wisdom of continuing it, certainly the wisdom of setting it up by statute, until we are assured that the policy of the minister and the government in that respect has been changed.
There is one further objection which we have, and which is of a general nature, namely, that this service must bring to this country

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inevitably the dangers inherent in all government information agencies. I should like to speak, and would be expected to speak, fairly carefully here, because I know the persons in charge of these agencies are persons of good faith, and persons who attempt to act in good faith. But I submit in all seriousness that it is impossible for persons charged with disseminating information about government activities to avoid colouring their information constantly with items and points of view favourable to the administration whose policies they are publicizing. That is inevitable. If they did not do that they could not be maintained in office. There might be hon. members who say that such a trend is not dangerous, but I think most hon. members on this side of the house-and certainly all in this particular group-feel that that trend is an extremely dangerous one. Probably even if this party were in office the same trend would be evident, because as I say, the trend is inevitable in connection with government publicity. That is why we think government should keep out of the publicity business, not only on the grounds of expense, but also on the ground, if you like, that it is not justified in spending any public money for political or propaganda purposes- and propaganda cannot be avoided in this sort of activity. That is another reason why we resist the proposal to set up this service and perpetuate it under a statute.
That just about completes the objections we have to this board. In conclusion, I should like to emphasize the first point I made. The service might perform a useful function though we are not convinced of that. It might perform a useful function in so far as disseminating information overseas is concerned-I certainly think that should be the very limit of its function; it should disseminate no information in Canada. But we want to be convinced that it is performing that service, because it is essential that the people of Canada get value for their money.


Thomas Langton Church: The resolution of the minister states that it is expedient to present a bill to establish a Canadian information service. It is not expedient; it is a reckless raid on public funds. At the present time we have public ownership of railways; we have insurance companies, banks, departmental stores and other mercantile organizations, all supplying information abroad. They have their agents and all of that kind of thing. We have also Trade and Immigration, air and steamship lines.
When this information bureau started during the war it was used largely for political propaganda purposes. Information by the ton was sent out all over Canada, all over the
world and on the seven seas. But what did the editors of the newspapers do with it? Many of them said they threw it in the wastepaper basket. The information was not information at all. As I said before, the service should not have been created.
The resolution says that it is expedient; if it is expedient, it is not necessary. Is it expedient to be spending a billion and a half dollars on civilian estimates at the present time? Think of all the trips abroad! I fancy this department started in a small way. It was a reflection on the press which did such great work in the war. First, they got one clerk and then they borrowed a few fellows from the civil service. Then they launched out. They said, as Israel Tarte, the one-time member for Montmagny-L'IsIet, said, " Wait until you see us next year." Who are these people? Take up the main estimates and you find that every department of the public service has publicity agents abroad on the seven seas spending money like water with duplication and waste. There are all kinds of duplications. They are doing work that is largely the function of trade and commerce and industry. We have trade agents and immigration agents and all that sort of thing for eleven million people. We are overgoverned and overtaxed from one end of Canada to the other. No wonder the people are losing confidence in us as representatives. I said that when this matter was up a few years ago.
As John Hayden said in 1797, referring to the golden age:
The press is now the only organ of public opinion.
Much more than the House of Commons is. I continue:
This title it assumes; but it is not by usurpation; it is rendered legitimate by the defects of your parliamentary constitution; it is erected upon the ruins of real representation. The periodical press is the rival of the House of Commons; and it is, and it will be, the successful rival, as long as that house does not represent the people, but not one day longer.
These, wise words were used years ago, and they are correct to-day. Our parliamentary system, erected by the people, now looks to the press for its information, and they represent public opinion more than we do. When the information bureau was set up during the war, it was, as I then said, a reflection on the press. Instead of utilizing existing agencies, the government assumed the functions of the press and it was wide of the mark.
The minister is fond of spending money and duplicating services. I do not wish to reflect on him because he is an able young man, likable and fuli of promise, and an old friend of mine, but I object in the public
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interest to certain things in this matter, namely, the duplication and the waste which is going on in the public service of Canada. The provinces have information bureaux and picture books which they get out and send all over the country and the world. The various departments of provinces and municipalities are all spending money on publicity, or at least some of them are. They cannot spend it like water in the municipalities because the taxpayers have a check on them every December or January first in the annual elections. If they spent money like that they would be put out of office. This spending of money is all reflected in the federal tax rate. This extravagance will go on just as long as the House of Commons stands for it. The suggested expenditure for this new service should be reduced to $1, and then you would be spending a dollar you do not need to spend. It provides no information; it does not bring a soul to Canada.
The work done during the war in the information bureau along these lines was done by civilians who were established in good :at jobs, complete with travelling expenses by aeroplane, hotel bills, drawing rooms, and all that sort of thing. And they can simply snap their fingers at the auditor general. No wonder the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley) is getting sick of it. The taxpayers are getting sick of it, too. People in the constituencies are wondering what kind of parliament this is, when it is so ready to spend money like water to maintain some of these useless institutions and services of no value.
This is not an expenditure in the public interest. We have seen the work done by the old government of Canada information bureau in New York, housed in a luxurious office, with all travelling expenses paid. They counted that day lost in the United States in which they did not spend at least $5,000 or $10,000 for fads and frills. Just look at the state of affairs in the United States, particularly in congress and in the senate when there was a debate about the loan to Britain. The Canadian information bureau was supposed to give information to the American people, to draw them away from their old type of history books which described a Britain of the Seven Years war, and all that kind of thing. That is the sort of thing the information bureau was supposed to be doing and to cure in New York and the United States.
Did the bureau change any of that information? No, they have the same old history books. I have seen them in Cleveland, Buffalo and other cities, with information in them equivalent, to the days of Lord North. That
[Mr. Church.1
is the kind of information they are still using and getting after this extravagant expenditure of money of ours there. The municipalities could not spend money like this, and the provinces have been curtailing their expenditures. There is no necessity for it, at all.
I believh it was in Cleveland, Detroit or Toledo-I am not sure which-where I saw a pamphlet and pictures of information describing those celebrated gentlemen of the Royal Canadian Mounted police, who are under the control of the Minister of Justice (Mr. St. Laurent). Americans come up here in front of the parliament buildings during the summer and see our splendid mounted police wearing their red coats and their military uniforms in this awful heat and making a laughing-stock out of parliament which asks these brave men and' the finest police service to wear them, in the idea that this sort of advertising is necessary to encourage people from the United States to come to Ottawa. We are spending money to advertise the mounted police, when they do not need advertising, at all. Their great record in peace and war alike does not need such publicity.
The time has come for a halt. Parliament is going to get a rude awakening at the polls when the next election comes along. If we look at the back of this book of estimates I have before me we find details of expenditures made in the public service. What right have we to open up new departments, when the war is over, and. to extend this service? New Zealand and Australia would not stand for it; the people down there would not put up with it. I doubt not that if the people of Canada had an opportunity to vote on it they would vote it down.
We shall have to strike out all these unnecessary post-war expenditures, and let us get back to a consideration of the interests of the small businessman, the taxpayer, the farmer and the artisan. I have had occasion to take note of the kind of advertising done by large department stores such as Eatons and Simpsons. They do ten times more work in a day than this fancy department of government would do in all the years since its creation.
I have always been against this method of advertising our country. Canada does not need to be advertised along the lines mentioned by the minister. The quicker we get back to striking these expenditures out of the estimates, all these fads and' frills, the better it will be for responsible government in this dominion. There is no such thing as responsible government here, anyway. We

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might as well pack up and go home, for all the control we have over expenditures. We have a comptroller of the treasury, but if he finds anything wrong under the War Measures Act we never hear about it. He is just holding postmortems after the money is spent.
There will be a day of reckoning after the next election. The undertaker will be there ready to provide accommodation for some of the politicians both in and out of the house who are willing to stand for expenditures like this.


Mr. STANLEY KNOWLES (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. Speaker, it is an ordinary practice to begin one's speech by saying that he did not intend to speak on the subject before the house. I should like hon. members to believe that in this instance that is true because, until I listened' to the opposition to my right, I had not intended doing so.
At times some of us find ourselves in the difficult position of recognizing that there can be only two sides to a question. This means that frequently we have to take sides with one or other of the two old parties. Some get a good deal of amusement out of that fact. In this instance I find myself supporting the measure brought down by the government.


Gordon Graydon: There is nothing new
about that.
Mr. KNOWLE7S : Well, when the hon. member says there is nothing new about it I would remind him that last evening the Liberals and the Tories voted together to defeat a proposal we were offering. So that, from time to time, we do get mixed up.


Gordon Graydon: Your amendment was so bad we could not do anything about it.


Stanley Howard Knowles: It was an amendment which, among other things, supported the cooperatives, which my hon. friends voted against.
In expressing general support for this measure, I wish to make it clear that this does not mean that I do not agree with the contention of the hon. member for Kamloops (Mr. Fulton) that we should get full value for our money. I agree with him that parliament should know as much as possible of what is going on in the Canadian information service, and it is our job to do everything we can to keep those who are operating that service on their toes so that they will do a good job.
I wish, however, to make the point that in the society of to-day we need all the light and knowledge we can possibly have. We cannot have too much of it. The hon. member for Kamloops referred to this service as one which had been initiated during the war under
*the authority of the War Measures Act, and expressed the opinion that it had been an emergency measure which should have ended with the end of the war. My view is that there were many things which had their beginning during the war but which did not come to an end at its close.
It is possible that we may have learned a few things in those bitter years, and one of the things we learned was the great need for public information, and for our own people to know as much as possible of what is going on, and for the rest of the world to be fully informed about us. This might be considered as being in the field of adult education. We do not oppose the idea of provincial, or municipal governments sponsoring and providing education for our children. In our western democracies at any rate we have got past the stage where we feel that because governments are in charge of education of our children, necessarily such education is in the form of propaganda. Such is not the case.
Education does not stop at grade 8, grade 12 or with university. Surely it goes on throughout the whole of one's life. In a dynamic age, such as the one in which we are living, if we are to be able to live in it and to meet effectively the problems which arise from time to time, our people must continue to learn as long as they live. They must be supplied with all possible information about happenings in our own country, and trends and developments throughout the world. On that basis I feel it is one of the responsibilities of the government to organize an information service. Since this matter of public information is a new field I recognize immediately that the government is put in a difficult spot. I do not quarrel with the hon. member for Kamloops for pointing out the dangers of creating government information services. I do not agree with him, but I think it is well that the point was made, so that the government will realize that they must lean over backward, that they must be particularly careful, especially in getting started, so that the reputation of this service will not be ruined by its being just a propagandist agency; it should be set up to provide information in an objective way.
I remember a case in point two or three years ago when this matter was up in the house, I believe on the estimates of the wartime information board. At that time I joined in part with my hon. friends in complaining that too much of the material in some of the W.I.B. documents and pamphlets that were going overseas had to do with information about the government. I tried to make the point to the minister in charge-I believe it was the present
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minister who was then parliamentary assistant to the Prime Minister-that to give a true picture of the situation in Canada there should be some account of what the other parties in the country were doing as well as of what was being done by the party that happened to be in power.
There was a long battle and our request was refused on the floor of the house, but eventually we won to the extent that in the issue of Canadian Affairs published just before the election by W.IiB., the predecessor of the Canadian information service, there appeared statements which had been prepared by the national parties which were taking part in the election of 19'45. I do not think anyone was sorry that this was done, because it was a presentation of the picture as it stood.
I was glad to see a move made in the direction of getting away from the fear that you must not talk about political parties. After all, the}' are a large part of our national life. If you are to tell the story of what is going on, the story of the political parties has to be told. I felt encouraged that we had made some headway a few months ago when I was overseas attending certain international meetings. At that time the Canadian delegation was supplied by the Canadian information services with information as to what was going on back home in Canada. When you are away from home it means a great deal to get these telegraphic dispatches. I have a vivid recollection of feelings that, while the coverage was necessarily brief, nevertheless it was quite broad. I remember that almost all of one dispatch was devoted to an amendment that had been moved and the remarks made on the floor of this house by the leader of the group to which I belong. While my hon. friends to my right might not like that, it proved to me that the Canadian information service was trying to give a true picture of what was going on back home.
It would appear to me that there is more to the job that should be done by an information service than was referred to by the minister. He may have overlooked part of it, or perhaps I missed it, but as I understand it the job of a public information service is not just to disseminate information abroad; it should also disseminate information within the country. We still receive a good many documents from the Canadian information service, although not quite as many as during the latter months of the war or, if I may say so, just before the election. That may seem to defeat the point I am trying to make, but in fact it does not. I am in wholehearted support of the basic principle, but naturally I want to see

this service carried on in an objective way. When the minister speaks on this matter again when we are in committee I hope he will have something to say about the domestic phase.
We all recognize the importance of publicizing Canada abroad, and those of us who have had the privilege of attending international conferences will, I am sure, all subscribe to that. However, I am more concerned about the level of the information given to our people here at home. As I said, I think that should be the principal job of a public information service. I hope these people will be given all kinds of support. That will not mean that we will not criticize them if we think they are not giving full value for the money spent; it will not mean that we will not criticize them if we think they are giving too much publicity to what the government is doing and failing to recognize the other activities in the community. With these and other suggestions that we might make later on, I want to support strongly the idea of developing and strengthening a public information service.
We are all aware of the difficult and trying period through which we have gone in the last six or seven years, yes in the last ten or fifteen years, but my notion is that we shall have even more difficult times ahead of us. One of the ways to fortify our people and help them to understand and adjust themselves to changing social and economic conditions, to understand problems-in the international field, is to have as much knowledge and information as possible. I contend that it is one of the responsibilities of a democratic government to organize an information service among its people.
I know that every time this kind of thing is brought up people say, "It is being done by the government of the day." I do not support the government of the day-I did my best in April, May and June of 1045 to see that they were not returned-but this is a democracy. Hon. gentlemen opposite are there by the will of the people of this country; while they are there, it is part of their job to let the people know what the various departments are doing.


Edmund Davie Fulton: The C.I.S. does not do that.


Stanley Howard Knowles: If it is not doing that, it should be. I hope we shall have some information from the minister on that point when we get into committee.
There is just one more question I should like to ask before sitting down. The way I have spoken will, I think, indicate that I did not intend to make a speech at this time, but

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I felt that the minister should have some support since members on his own side are few and far between and very quiet to-day.
When this service is set up by statute I should like to know under what minister it will operate. The wartime information board came under the privy council and I believe the estimates are still under that department in the demobilization section. Will the minister tell us who is to have charge of these functions and whether, perchance, they are to be related to such similar services as the national film board? While I intend to do all I can to correct any abuses and to make sure that we get our money's worth, nevertheless I support the principle of the proposal now before us.


Gordon Graydon: Mr. Speaker, before this resolution carries I should like to make a few observations that occur to me as being important in connection with the Canadian information service. I was interested in what my good friend, the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles), just said with respect to the Canadian information service conveying to the public information concerning the work being done by the respective departments of government. I would not think so much of that except for this: In the minister's own department, if my arithmetic is correct, either the Canadian information service is not doing the job it was intended to do, or else the minister is duplicating that service on his own, because I find that altogether $518,000 is being spent by his own department on publicity and information.
It is difficult, Mr. Speaker, to criticize governmental policy and administration without seeming to reflect upon those who are employed by the government in carrying out its policy. But I want to make this clear, that in the Canadian information service are many exceptionally able men, quite a number of whom I know myself, but under the present set-up of the Canadian information service these men are simply being encouraged by the government to waste an important part and the productive part of their journalistic life. I do not think many people-I want to put this baldly in clear language-are going to be fooled by the set-up of the Canadian information service. There are some practical people in parliament whom it is not easy to fool. You can picture the Canadian information service in any way you like, but the natural trend of such a service is not simply to convey information about the departments of government, but in the last 63260-229
analysis it becomes a propaganda machine for the government that happens to be in office. Let us look that fact squarely in the face and not be fooled by any fancy language concerning it. Actually the Canadian information service should not be called the Canadian information service. It should really be called the Canadian government perpetuation service, because that is what the service eventually becomes in effect. Again I want to make it clear that it is no reflection on the men who are in this service, for many of whom I have the highest regard both personally and for the ability they so often exhibit. This information service is not even a fifth wheel to the parliamentary coach; it is an eighth or ninth wheel, and unless the minister is able to make a much better case than he has done up to the present, I cannot see how this money is being spent to good advantage in the interest of the public at large. * Take the matter of Canadian news in United States newspapers. We have excellent men in the Canadian information service at New York and other places in the United States, but the whole policy of this government with respect to information is, in my opinion, misguided. I would ask the minister this question. Is he satisfied that in United States newspapers we are getting a fair share of Canadian news? I ask that question because, if we are to spend money on a Canadian information service over in the United States, we have a right to ask for some results. I know it may be said that in broad matters of advertising it is hard to lay your finger on results, but the one thing that strikes every Canadian visiting in the United States is the great lack of Canadian news in United States newspapers. There is hardly anything about Canadian business or Canadian affairs at all. The United States is a great country *which, of necessity, is interested in its own affairs, although it is interested in ours too. I do not think the minister will be able to show, even though we have this great Canadian information service covering the United States, that it is contributing to the spreading of Canadian news abroad any more than the ordinary newspaper services. Indeed, sometimes I feel that the setting up of this information service is a reflection on the regular news services which did such a good job in Canada and the United States in the war and in peace. If this Canadian information service is not for the purpose of duplicating the ordinary news services, then it falls into a category of its own, the category which I have suggested, where it must eventually become simply a perpetuation service of the government in power.

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We have moved far away from the olden days when political parties used to try to get their own publicity across to the people. Now, if you are the government, you do not have to spend your own money for political purposes; you spend other people's, even the money of those who are trying to put you out of power. That results in an impossible situation.
You may have the very best kind of men in the Canadian information service; but, after all, everybody is human, and who is it that pays the men in the Canadian information service? Is it the opposition? Is it the C.C.F.? Is it the Social Credit Party? No, it is the government. And who is it that has the right to hire and fire these men? Is it the opposition? Is it the C.C.F.? Is it the Social Credit Party? No, it is the government. There is not a practical businessman in this parliament who does not know that those who have the right to hire and fire have some little say at all events in how you shall do your work. We might just as well tear the mask off this whole thing and show it in its proper perspective. In doing so, I suggest to those connected with this service that they take what has been said here as a warning that in the years to come they may find themselves drifting into a position which they do not desire, of finding themselves part and parcel of the government.
My good friend, the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre, a few moments ago spoke of the scarcity of information published other than that which has to do with the government. I remember that in the war, judging by what was published, one might get the idea that only those who supported the government had anything to do with the war at all. There was one exception, a pamphlet, which contained a symposium on education to which both the minister and the leader of the C.C.F. party made admirable contributions. I was not at all satisfied with my own contribution, but they published it, perhaps for that very reason. That was the only occasion in the whole war, so far as I am aware, on which a government information bureau even mentioned that the opposition and other parties were sharing in the war effort. I am not going to blame anybody for that, because human nature runs through all political parties. Sometimes it is said that human nature differs with different political parties, but I have never been persuaded of that; and having the money in their hands, having the power in their hands, and having such an instrument as the information service in their hands like the government had, it would be too much to expect of human nature that they would not use it. I point

that out, because it seems to me to go to the root of this whole matter of publicity and information. The government are trying to sell themselves, and by artificial means. There is one sure way for the government to sell themselves, and I am not satisfied that they are doing it very well just now. Let them have a policy which meets the wishes of the people and carry it out, and they will not need all this information, which is paid for by people, many of whom do not support them.
In conclusion, I had hoped that the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre would not have supported the expenditure of this money, although I am, in a way not surprised that he did. I wonder whether the government realizes that the group sitting to my left regard them quite differently from the way they regard themselves. I believe the ideas of the C.C.F. are completely erroneous, and I hope and believe that what they have in mind will never come to pass. But they regard the present government as a sort of group of political John the Baptists, paving the way for something which is coming later, though let me add- that there is no comparison of any sort between the two sets of circumstances. But I hope the government will come to its senses some time and realize what it is doing. In each one of the measures wherein the C.C.F. are supporting the government, they are doing so because they think it makes a little easier for them if, through a lapse of memory and judgment on the part of the Canadian people, at any time in the next fifty years, they should come into office in this dominion. That is one of the reasons why the C.C.F. on so many occasions are supporting the government.
So far as the Canadian information service is concerned, this party looks with grave suspicion upon the whole move which is now being made. Here was a board set up, the war information- board, we were told, for war purposes. But, as has happened to a lot of other things established during the war, the government is now busy legislating to try to perpetuate in peace what they set up ostensibly for the purpose of the war. All over the country the people are asking, does the government know the war is over? With the evidence of the -present proposal and of many other moves which have been made in this house since the session started, it is not to be wondered at that such doubts arise in the public mind.
I oppose the proposal for these reasons, and others which I will not mention now because I desire to see the resolution further debated, not in order to support the legisla-

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tion, because we desire to reserve our rights to see whether in committee we can obtain from the minister some small shred of evidence which would justify parliament in setting up this new information service. I for one have not been convinced of its necessity.
Mr. SOLON E. LOW (Peace River): Mr. Speaker, I have just a word to say on the resolution before it is put to the vote. I can quite understand the anxiety of the government at times to have information disseminated to the people, and I am in sympathy with the idea of furnishing to the people of this and other countries full information of what is going on in Canada. Democracy cannot work successfully unless it is informed of what is going on; furthermore, it is impossible for us to take our position in the world unless accurate and dependable information is available through which the people of other countries can properly and correctly assess Canada's position.
However, I am not so sure that the form of service which was set up during the war and as a result of the needs of war can possibly serve in time of peace. My mind goes back to a debate which was held in the latter part of the session of last fall, when Bretton Woods came up, and I suggested that, in an effort to get the information before the people, the government make use of the government-owned radio, giving time to the various parties in this house to place before the people their views respecting this most important measure, and asking the people to let us know what they thought about it before the matter was finally disposed of by the government. I did not see very much anxiety on the part of the government then to let the people know. As a matter of fact, it seemed to me that everything possible was done to prevent the people from understanding what Bretton Woods was about; and I may tell the government that if our people had been fully informed they would not find themselves in the embarrassing position they are in now with respect to Bretton Woods, where, having committed themselves unalterably, they found it necessary in< their negotiations for a wheat agreement with Britain to disregard completely the terms of Bretton Woods, to which they had committed themselves. They are now embarrassed, and they are going to have some trouble in getting out of a peculiar position.
The people of the country ought to know, and are entitled to know, and if the minister will bring in a proposal which makes it possible for the people to learn what they want to know about what is going on, rather 63260-229}
than what the government want them to have, the government will not have any trouble in getting my support. But if they bring in a facsimile or even something resembling the wartime Canadian information service they will not have the support of my group; we can assure them of that.
My mind also goes back to the time of the election, when I received out west an invitation to contribute, as the leader of a political group in this country, to the overseas information service to the troops that was being supplied by the Canadian information board. I was told that I must put my whole programme-that is the whole programme of the Social Credit Association of Canada-before the troops overseas in 500 words. I inquired how much space was being given to other groups. I found that the Progressive Conservatives were allotted between 1,600 and 1,700 words; the Liberals, of course, were given 2,200 words. Now, how much more important is it for the troops to understand the whole of the Liberal programme than the whole of the programme of the Social Credit party or the Progressive Conservatives or the C.C.F.? I say that all are entitled to equal treatment. It is the only principle upon which we can have justice. But, Mr. Speaker, we were forced to condense our whole programme, a vast philosophy, just as important and vast as the Liberal philosophy


Mr. BURTON:: They have not got one.


Mr. LOW:: -into 500 words, to get it before these people overseas, who were thereby to make up their minds whether to support liberals or Social Creditors or Conservatives or the C.C.P.


Edmund Davie Fulton: The government would find it more difficult to explain theirs.


Solon Earl Low: These are some things I have in mind when I think of a Canadian information service, and I warn the minister and the government that if they intend to bring in a measure which will perpetuate that sort of thing they cannot hope to get the support of the opposition, certainly not this part of it, anyway.
There is -one other thing I should like to say. I do not believe that the minister should be commended at all for bringing in this measure at this stage of the session. Here is one more example of the government waiting until very late in the session to bring forward a most important and controversial measure. When the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) rose in his place the other day and said that it would not be very controversial I had to
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restrain myself from rising and asking him about Bretton Woods, and suggesting to him that this might have just as many repercussions. But here the minister comes in, in the heat of summer, when we are burdened and battened down so thoroughly that we can hardly breathe, and asks us to pass a measure of this kind in a hurry. If we have to stay here until Christmas we are going to find1 out what it means, and we will determine to our satisfaction that it is a measure which is intended to disseminate factual information of every kind, whether favourable to the government or not, to the people of Canada. If the government brings in a measure of that kind it will receive my support. If it does not, I can promise active and dynamic opposition.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I have here a list of publications put out by the Canadian information service, starting with an airmail bulletin. This is practically of no use in view of the fact that news carried by it is carried by the press not only throughout Canada but throughout the rest of the world. Then there is an airmail bulletin in Spanish. Why Spanish I do not know. I had understood that the airmail service was wired to different parts of the globe and sent out through the consular service, but from what I can gather it always arrives too late to be of any value. Next we have the C.I.S. Weekly and the press survey. This, I understand, goes to the newspapers. I have read editorials and articles in newspapers, since the end of the war, with reference to the information service that goes to the press, and in every article it is stated that the material always arrives a day late and therefore goes right into the wastepaper basket and is never read. That is weekly. As far as monthly publications are concerned, we have "Recent poll releases." I do not know what that is and I would ask the minister to explain it. As regards occasional publications, we have the "Canadian Cook Book" for British brides. That is a very good idea, but I suggest that the cook book would be better issued by the Department of Agriculture. That department at present issues various folders on how to cook meats, chicken, this, that and the other thing; it gives recipes for preserving and so on, and it is therefore only right that the Department of Agriculture should do that work and not the information service. Why * should we have different services in the government doing the same work? Then we have the "Canadian Handbook for Mexican Book Fair." 1 believe that some 250,000 copies were issued. This is not the sort of work that should be done by the Canadian
[Mr. Low.l
information service. A book of that kind should be got out by the Department of Trade and Commerce. They know what they are talking about and Canadian information service does not. Then there are reference papers. We get these in our mail, but the information given in these papers is, in most cases, stale, because we have it in our own Hansard and other publications and in Votes and Proceedings. They [DOT] have the same in French. These are the publications that are put out at the present time.
Besides all that, I understand the Canadian information service do a lot of work for the film board and other departments of government. I feel, as many newspaper editors across the country do, that this service should be discontinued at once, because it is a waste of money and any advertising or information that goes out should be sent out by the different departments of government.
Information service has also sent out speakers throughout the country and paid their expenses. That is something I am very much against. I tried to get some information in this connection and, while I obtained some, I did not get all that I wanted, because under wartime information service speakers were sent, I understand, as far as Mexico.
I suggest that the minister should drop the resolution right where it is. The people do not want it. It is a waste of their money and it should be done away with, and the sooner the better. The Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley), said last night that if we cannot give him some ideas on how to curtail extravagance he will have to think of ways and means. I thought then it was about time he began thinking of ways and means, and I hope that the minister who has this legislation in charge will decide right now to drop the resolution.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair.


Edmund Davie Fulton: As I intimated before, there are certain questions regarding which we should like to get detailed information from the minister. If he would prefer to have me state them one by one I shall be glad to do so. In the first place, we would appreciate it if he would give in some detail the position with regard to the relation between Canadian information service and, for instance, the Department of Trade and Commerce and the Department of External Affairs. We were hoping that he would give that information with specific reference to these two departments and later give some general explanation of the relation between the sei-vice and the

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publicity branches of government departments generally. I refer to these two departments in particular because of the large items for publicity overseas work in these departments-to be found at pages 8, 51 and 53 of the main estimates.


Brooke Claxton: Perhaps I might answer the question at once. In referring to the item on page 8 of the estimates, amounting to $2,436,325 for representation abroad, the hon. member is going a long way from the subject matter of this resolution. That item on page 8 reads: "Including salaries of high commissioners, ambassadors, ministers plenipotentiary, consuls, secretaries, staff", and the figure is $2,436,325. Of course this item covers all the cost of Canada's foreign service in external affairs and does not include anything for public information services. There is no duplication whatever.


Edmund Davie Fulton: To make the point clear, I should like to repeat what I said in the course of my general remarks, namely that I felt it would probably be more efficient to charge these people in the Department of External Affairs or the officials of the Department of Trade and Commerce with the work which the minister intimated would be done by Canadian information service abroad. I drew attention to the item in External Affairs, because it indicates an extensive representation in the Department of External Affairs abroad, and I would say offhand that there is sufficient staff there to carry out this work.


Brooke Claxton: I shall be very glad to deal with that, and since it is probably the most important question that can be raised on this resolution, I should deal with it at some length. In the first place, I can assure the hon. member that it is not new to us to consider whether or not to institute this service.
I hope I can lay it down as a general principle, agreed to, I trust, by all hon. members, that they recognize that Canada has reached the stage in her development and in her status, and the world has reached the position in which we are required to have instruments abroad for extending information about Canada. It must be accepted that everyone in Canada would like to see people abroad in other countries have more information leading to more knowledge, more understanding and more good will about Canada. I believe everyone will agree with that. I think they would also agree that, in view of developments in the machinery for intercourse with , other nations and of the materials for public opinion, something more is needed than we had before the war. I believe it was the hon.
member for Winnipeg North Centre who said that a good many things had developed during the war. I should like to supplement that if I may and say that perhaps war itself came about .more because of a lack of understanding between nations than anything else, and this was due primarily to ignorance. It was due to prejudice; and the best cure for ignorance, prejudice and intolerance that we have is information and knowledge which may lead to understanding and good will. Therefore I believe that every nation and every international organization have found it desirable to increase the facilities which have hitherto existed for the interchange of information as the basis of understanding, good will, tolerance and, we hope, cooperation. To a very considerable degree that was a war-time development.
It was the absence of services before the war which certainly contributed to this lack of understanding. Therefore I believe it is recognized everywhere that something should be done. It is desired that it should be done as efficiently, as fairly and as economically as possible. The business that we have set ourselves to is to see how that can be done, and that is why the questions and observations of the hon. member for Kamloops are interesting on this point and must be taken seriously.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Is it not true that there are some things that diplomatic representatives cannot properly do?


Brooke Claxton: Yes.


Stanley Howard Knowles: But which can be done better by a service of this kind?


Brooke Claxton: That is our submission.


Howard Charles Green: Give us an example. Can the minister tell us in what manner this Canadian information service endeavours to place the Canadian viewpoint before the people of Russia.


Brooke Claxton: Yes, certainly. I shall deal with both of these questions.
To get back to the questions of the hon. member for Kamloops, the Canadian information service is planning to have a supervisory committee on which there will be representatives of the Departments of External Affairs and Trade and Commerce. They will be the only two government departments represented as such. They are the government departments primarily interested in seeing to the dissemin-tion of information about Canada abroad. The reason why we believe it is better that the service should do the job rather than either External Affairs or Trade and Com-
Army Supplies

meroe is that in order to perforin such a service you should have technical knowledges, skills and experiences which are not ordinarily to be found in the Departments of External Affairs and Trade and Commerce. That is, it is desirable that we should have a group of people who are journalists, people having journalistic experience, a group of people who have had editorial experience and who have general publicity or educational experience, as well as artists and writers. Ordinarily you do not find these in the foreign offices of the world, and you do not find great numbers of them either in trade and commerce, or anywhere else. But if you do find them somebody has to pay them, provide for them. From that point of view we have thought it desirable that the group of people primarily concerned with this in the foreign field should be collected together and put in one service, but that that service should be closely coordinated with the two government departments with which it ordinarily has to work closely, namely External Affairs and Trade and Commerce.
Second, a member of a Canadian mission abroad, either in a high commissioner's office, an embassy or a legation, has a diplomatic status which gives him certain amenities. It also means that he must conduct himself in certain specified ways. It is not easy for him to have easy relationships with the press in the locality in which he is accredited in the same way as it is for somebody who has not diplomatic status to have these relationships of easy social intercourse, business relationships and the like which ordinarily exist between the representatives of all information services and the press in the country to which they are accredited.
At six o'clock the Speaker resumed the chair and the house took recess.
After Recess
The house resumed at eight o'clock. ARMY SUPPLIES



PRESS REPORT AS TO DISCARDING OF SHOES AND SLIPPERS

[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. C. D. HO'WE (Minister of Reconstruction and Supply): Mr. Speaker; by consent of the house I should like to answer a question asked on July 12 by one of the hon. members opposite with respect to boots and shoes reported to have been dumped in a
[Mr. Claxton.l
public place in Montreal. If I can have that consent which is necessary, I should like to make my statement at this time.
As a result of joint investigation by the army and War Assets Corporation, I am in a position to inform the house as follows:
1.	That no footwear was placed on the Point St. Charles dump by any army installation or by War Assets Corporation.
2.	A check on army vehicles has revealed that nothing but ashes and garbage was carried to Point St. Charles dump between May 1 and June 10, 1946.
3.	Mutilation of condemned footwear has not been army practice since 1941.
4.	All surplus army footwear is disposed of through War Assets Corporation, and at no time has such material been disposed of otherwise.
5.	That a major proportion of surplus army footwear is handled at the Valleyfield depot of War Assets Corporation.
6.	Canvas shoes which are found by qualified inspectors to be fit for further use are reconditioned as necessary and sold in the main to international relief agencies.
7.	Canvas shoes which the inspectors find are not fit for further use, and cannot be repaired, are sold as scrap.
8.	Used leather boots and shoes are examined by the inspectors and repaired if at all possible, but if mot repairable are sold as scrap.
9.	No canvas or leather footwear which is received in a repairable or usable condition by the corporation is scrapped by the corporation.
10.	It has been determined that the only surplus government footwear which could have been placed on the Point St. Charles dump was that sold by the corporation as scrap leather to private interests, who after investigation and examination of their purchase, decided that the cost of salvaging by separation of the various component material would be greater than the revenue that could be derived from the sale of these materials. Apparently the private interests decided to accept the initial cost as a loss and dumped the footwear.
Edmund Davie Fulton: Are goods turned over by War Assets Corporation to private interests ever tunned over subject to any conditions, or are they turned over with no conditions attached?


Mr. HOWE:: Nothing that government inspectors consider is usable is sold to private interests. But if it is sold, it is sold as scrap at scrap prices, for such disposition as the buyer may wish to make.

Information Service


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I understand that all these shoes on the dump were split or slit with a knife. Would War Assets Corporation sell them in that way? I should think they would sell them as good shoes. They would not do the splitting?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: All the newspapers which carried the article said that the shoes were slit or split so that they could not be used as shoes or boots, but could be used as slippers.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am told that the inspection board, which are in charge of operations at Valleyfield for the government, on occasion have slit a shoe which is not repairable. It is not their universal practice; but to distinguish shoes condemned for scrap from shoes which are repairable, from time to time it has been the practice to slash a shoe. That is just to make sure that an attempt is not made to repair it.
Shoes that are repaired are sold to relief agencies, and must come up to a certain standard set by those agencies. It may be that the government inspection staff slit certain shoes; but that is the only agency which could possibly have done so.	,


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The Montreal Star of yesterday showed pictures of these shoes. On this one pair-and the article stated there were others like them-the sole was absolutely new. It had not been used at all, and it was stated that the uppers were the same, except that they had a slit in them. The government is investigating-


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER:: Order; there is no debate on the minister's statement.


Edmund Davie Fulton: May I ask this question, Mr. Speaker, subject to your ruling. Who classified the shoes as repairable or irrepairable? Are they classified by the services before they are received by War Assets Corporation, or by War Assets Corporation after they are received by them?


Clarence Decatur Howe: They are declared surplus to War Assets Corporation. They go to Valley-field, to the War Assets Corporation repair depot at that point. There they are inspected by the inspection board which-


Edmund Davie Fulton: What department?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The Department of National Defence. It is the inspection board that has inspected all purchases by the government for
war purposes throughout the last five or six years. If any shoes are slashed, it is my intimation that that is done as part of the inspec- . tion system.


William Ross Macdonald: Private bills. PRIVATE BILL



CONSIDERED IN COMMITTEE-THIRD READING

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 248, to incorporate Prescott and Ogdensburg Bridge Company-Mr. Croll.


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed consideration in committee of the following resolution-Mr. Clax-ton-Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair.
That it is expedient to present a bill to establish a Canadian information service for collecting and distributing abroad information con-verning Canada and to coordinate and assist the information service of the government and to provide for payment of salaries of staff and expenses of the service from moneys appropriated by parliament.
Brooke Claxton: Mr. Chairman, when the committee rose I was answering some of the questions that had been asked and some of the comments that had been made by some hon. members and was trying to show why it was considered necessary to set up an information service to do work which I think every one admits should be done in order to ensure that Canada shall receive adequate presentation abroad. I said that it had been considered that this should not be part of the functions either of the Department of External Affairs or of the Department of Trade and Commerce, first, because it needed people having special and particular qualifications and, second, because it had been found that the members of this service, not being members of the diplomatic corps, were able to maintain relations with members of the local press and others which enabled them to discharge their informational functions more effectively than could be done by members of the ordinary diplomatic services.
I would point out that the officers of the Department of External Affairs and of the Department of Trade and Commerce who are located abroad are already hard pressed and fully occupied with their own particular functions. It is quite evident from the examination we have made that it would not be possible for the offices of these two departments in the main centres to render additional service without the appointment of additional officers. Of course both departments do work alpng
Injormation Service

informational lines, and I think anyone who knows anything about the quality and calibre of the people representing Canada in External Affairs and Trade and Commerce will admit that they are doing admirable work. That is recognized by everyone and by the peoples of other countries.
We do not appoint special information service officers or set up a separate office unless there is a real need which cannot be met through these two departments. This has been found to be the case in New York, Washington, London, Paris and Canberra. In those places the officers of the Canadian information service are definitely subordinate to the senior officer of the Department of External Affairs and work very closely with him. I should like any hon. member who has visited New York, Washington, Paris, London or Canberra and who has seen what the representatives of the Canadian information service are doing in those places to tell us in what respect they have not done valuable work, work which needed to be done in the interests of Canada, work which should be done either by them or by the diplomatic representatives but which to be done by others would require the appointment of additional staff.
I should like to hear about that, because I have been concerned with this for two years and I have heard nothing but praise about the work these officers who represent Canada abroad are doing. I have heard no complaints except that they do not have enough money to do an adequate job and do not have an adequate staff.
These officers have been chosen solely with a view to their suitability for the positions they occupy. Some reference was made by the hon. member for Broadview (Mr. Church) to the luxurious offices in New York. I dare say that those so-called luxurious offices have been visited by many hon. members and by many representatives of the press. We have heard from them-when I say "we" I mean the Canadian information service for which I am speaking-nothing but praise. I have not heard of any complaint about the offices or services rendered. I think if anyone goes to those offices he would find that they are modest, . that they are rather overcrowded but equipped to do an adequate job along the lines I have indicated.
The person who set up the office in New York in the first place was Mr. Harry Sedge-wick, managing director of CFRB, a gentleman not known generally to be a supporter of this party. I think he did an excellent job there. He carried on through the years of the war and when the war reached a state

where he thought he could return to his own business, he did do. In Washington we had Mr. Hugh Campbell, the public relations officer in Winnipeg for the Canadian Pacific Railway company, now public relations officer everywhere for that company. He did a notable job in Washington, not only for the Canadian information service but for the armed forces and the people of Canada. I have never heard that he was an active supporter of the Liberal party or of any party.
I should like to deny with all the vehemence possible the charges which are implied or stated by hon. members or by others outside that there has been any sign of political propaganda about any of these activities at any stage. I think it is remarkable that in the course of this debate there should have been ' such references and insinuations without a single, solitary instance being given of any case where it has happened. That a country should have carried on an information service through one means or another from 1939 to this date, with no proof of that kind of activity ever being brought forward and supported, is a remarkable achievement and a great tribute to the people who carried on that service. It is also a recognition of the reality of the position as described by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre; that is, that a responsible government, which ours is, leans over backwards to ensure that nothing like that could possibly happen.
Was there ever a better example of this than when the Canadian information service met the request of the armed forces for information about the election and distributed to the armed forces overseas the issue of Canadian Affairs which described the aims and objects of the political parties.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Does the minister approve the division of space as described by the hon. member for Peace River?


Brooke Claxton: I had nothing whatever to do with the division of space; no member of the government had anything to do with it, and no employee of the government decided it.


Mr. JACKMAN:: Who fired the editor?


Brooke Claxton: There was no firing of
the editor.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: He got thrown out of his job.


Brooke Claxton: The hon. member is talking about something which has nothing whatever to do with this matter, and which does

Injormation Service
not come within the scope of the activities of the Canadian information service. I will tell the committee what happened.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Yes, do. Tell the whole story.


Brooke Claxton: The armed forces felt
that it was desirable in the interests of the men wTho wanted to vote in the election that information should be placed before them by the political parties. The Canadian information service, which published fortnightly Canadian Affairs, which ran through some fifty-six editions, and which did, I think, a notable job, was the vehicle chosen by which this might be done by the Canadian information service. The Canadian information service, looking at the precedents established in connection with the allocation of free time for political broadcasting over the C'BC network, called into consultation, just as the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation had done in connection with broadcasting, representatives of the political parties in Canada which came within the general scope of the white paper regarding broadcasting which was issued in 1939, as brought up to date in 1944. That included the representatives of the political parties which had national offices in Ottawa. They were called into consultation. I am sorry that the party represented by the hon. member for Peace River did not come within that qualification at the time. It was no decision of mine or of the government's. It was decided on the basis of the test that had been laid down, and representatives of the Progressive Conservative party, the C.C.F. party and the Liberal party met and agreed on an allocation of space which roughly approximated the allocation of time for political broadcasting. It was done on that basis. The parties cooperated and as far as I know, they stuck to the rules which their representatives had agreed to or laid down.
The issue went overseas. It required a *tremendous feat of organization to get it into the hands of the troops in time. I can tell the committee this. I have heard from every side, irrespective of political affiliations, that the sailors, soldiers and airmen of Canada appreciated that service and regarded it as a fair way of treating them in the fairest election ever held in Canada in war time.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: The war is over.


Brooke Claxton: But I am answering a
remark that has been made, and I am not going to allow the fact that the war is over to enable people to make charges without
my being able to reply to them. I think the hon. member would want me to be allowed that privilege.
It was very interesting indeed to read that in the British House of Commons-I can give hon. members the reference-the question was raised why they could not do the same thing for the British forces because it had succeeded so well with the Canadian forces.
I will tell hon. members that never, either in my capacity as a member, fairly active in the ranks of the Liberal party, or as minister charged with the responsibility to parliament for the administration of this service, have I heard of any complaint from any source about the way in which that operation was carried on.
Apart from vague and general remarks and insinuations, I have never heard of any established case where it could be brought out that, this instrument of publicity and public information for the people of Canada has been used for partisan purposes. The hon. member for Peel, my very good friend, referred to the occasion when he, the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar and myself took part in a debate in Montreal. I must say that I thought, just as he did, that I got the worst of it on that occasion-


Gordon Graydon: I am quite sure I did.


Brooke Claxton: -because speaking as a supporter of the government as I was at the time I thought I had to stick closely to the constitutional and legal situation in which the federal government found itself. But I must say that, apart from that notice in Canadian Affairs to which he referred, I do not remember any issue of Canadian Affairs ever referring to the Liberal party doing this or to the Liberal party doing that. Also I do not think any official or officer of the Canadian information service thinks of his salary as being paid by the Liberal government of Canada. He thinks of himself as a servant of Canada; I think they all do and will continue to do so, just as we regard them. I think they have served the people of Canada exceedingly well during a difficult period.
So I feel that, in view of the fact that I do not know of any case which can be brought forward to support the assertions which have been made, this service has done an admirable work and done it in the interest of the people of Canada.
The hon. member for Vancouver South asked me to give an example of the way in which the Canadian information service worked, and then he wanted to know-and I wonder if he really regards his question as
Information Service

fair-how the Canadian information service endeavoured to place the viewpoint of Cana-,da before Russia.


Howard Charles Green: What is unfair about that?


Brooke Claxton: It is recognized that it is exceedingly difficult for anyone to place any point of view before the people of Russia except through Russian agencies. I should say there that we send our representative in Moscow, our ambassador, Mr. Dana Wilgress, all the material there is. Also the government of the U.S.S.R. has in Canada its press agency which receives all the information that goes out to similar agencies.


Howard Charles Green: You mean, regular news agencies?


Brooke Claxton: Regular news agencies- Tass-and there is no other way that I know in which we could do it. I hope that answers the hon. gentleman's question.


Mr. MACKENZIE:: May I say a word? As a rule I do not speak very long. I was in Holland, a year ago this week, with the troops. They had just received a copy of Canadian Affairs. I was through the army headquarters, all the divisional headquarters and all around the various units there; and they were absolutely splendid in their appreciation of the issue of Canadian Affairs. I am not speaking now merely of Liberals, because most of those I met were supporters of my hon. friends opposite.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Do not forget how they voted overseas.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: They said that was the finest thing done, that Canada was able to send over from all the parties an expression of their political philosophies and political ideals.


Howard Charles Green: Of course we are dealing with a set-up that is to be made permanent and carried on into peacetime. If the Minister of National Health and Welfare thinks the question about Russia was unfair, will he explain how this information service carries on its work, say in the Netherlands, or in Norway, or in Brazil?


Brooke Claxton: With regard to Brazil, we have in our ambassador, Mr. Jean Desy, a person who speaks now the language of the country, who is well recognized as being a very good representative of our country. He receives from the Canadian information service eveiy day the Canadian airmail bulletin; he gets our material weekly; he has been supplied with a library of books; he has his 
inquiries which are addressed day by day to the office in Ottawa, and promptly- answered, and he has also outlets for the kind of information which is furnished. In the case of Brazil a considerable quantity of the publications are issued in Portuguese, and Mr. Desy himself has been, I think, one of the most effective people in ensuring that knowledge of Canada is distributed abroad.


Howard Charles Green: In that case is the purpose largely to promote trade between Brazil and Canada, or what is the purpose?


Brooke Claxton: Of course, to promote trade as well as to promote good relations in general. The trade commissioners who are there do their work in their own sphere, but they do not have the same opportunities of getting together information as have the people in Ottawa who are handling this service to send it to them and give them the means whereby they can carry on their work of representing us abroad. That applies both to the external affairs and trade commissioners in places like Rio.


Solon Earl Low: With regard to this matter I brought up in connection with the election service, since the minister has mentioned it I think I should clarify one or two points. We appreciate the service we got, and I think it did good. But what I was trying to bring before him was the inevitable position which it puts us in and puts the government in to have a service of that kind sponsored by the government. Let me make that clear.
We were not asked to sit in with the committee that allocated that time. It was known perfectly well that we had an organization, just as it was known that we had an organization in the case of CBC and the allocation of free time for political broadcasts from the CBC. Whether our office was in Ottawa, or Toronto, or Hamilton, or wherever it happened to be, we had a head office and an organization there. Therefore we should have been brought in. The first thing I knew about the matter was just a few weeks before the actual polling day, when I was sent a letter saying, " We are allotting your party 500 words in which to place your programme before the forces." I found that the allocation of time was on the basis which I mentioned this afternoon-500 words for ourselves; I do not recall what the C.C.F. had; the Progressive Conservatives were given between 1,600 and 1,700 words, and the Liberals between 2,100 and 2,200 words. If the Canadian informatien service used a formula arrived at by the CBC for the allocation of free time, I will say this, that the CBC now give as an excuse for the formula which was applied the fact that it was

Information Service
drawn up in a committee of this house. When we had a committee meeting a short time ago composed of representatives of the CBC and of all the parties in this house we found that no one on the government side was willing to change the allocation, because they claimed that the government should have a priority on the time, that they should have more time in which to broadcast to the people their policies and make representations with respect to those policies. I cannot quite understand why the minister cannot see this, that the position that the government are in inevitably, when they bring in a service of this kind and set it up, is that the people who come to the government for pay must take the position that the government is preferred, and they will take that position and will give them more space and more opportunity than they will give anybody else. That is only natural, unless the minister himself says to his Canadian information service, "We want you to be fair about this thing." If freedom of speech is to be tolerated in this country it must be free to everybody and equally free to everybody. That is the position we take. I have seen this type of thing worked before and I know the weaknesses of it. I know the minister himself has to take some responsibility, regardless of what he now says, that he did not have anything to do with it. The government did have something to do with it. Had the government stepped in and said, "We want this thing to be fair; we want the space to be fairly allocated," that is what would have been done. They did not do that, so that the Canadian information service would naturally say, "We have to give the government some preference in the amount of space." I do not see that they deserve any preference. Surely every political organization in the country that qualifies as a national political organization ought to have freedom of speech and freedom of publicity on anything which the government undertakes to do to get information to the people. If they are not going to undertake a service to get information to the people, well and good; we will take care of it ourselves, but if we are instituting a service let us institute it fairly and let it be free to everybody.


Gordon Graydon: During the recess there was brought to my attention by one of the citizens of Ottawa a matter which I had entirely forgotten, and I want to ask the minister a question with respect to it. Is it correct that one of those persons convicted of espionage was with the Canadian information service or the wartime information board; and, if so, who was that person?


Brooke Claxton: As far as I know, there was no one actually in the employ of the Canadian information service or the wartime information board who was connected with the espionage case or the report of the royal commission. There were two persons who had been seconded for a time from the armed forces for services in connection with the wartime information board and1 who there performed functions which were common to the wartime information board and the armed forces, but neither of them was ever on the strength or on the payroll of the Canadian information service.


Gordon Graydon: What positions did they hold? The minister indicates two. I heard of only one. What positions did they hold and how long tvere they with the wartime information board and the Canadian information service?


Brooke Claxton: I should preface this by saying that in this case there has not yet been an adjudication by the court. As hon. members know, Squadron Leader Poland was seconded1 from the Royal Canadian Air Force to the wartime information board, effective November 14, 1944 and was engaged in duties in connection with the board and the armed forces in the production of the Canada Digest. In May, 1945, his duties with the wartime information board ended. Prior to his undertaking these functions he was on the ordinary staff of the Royal Canadian Air Force at headquarters. Captain D. G. I.unan was seconded' from' the Canadian army to the wartime information board on November 6, 1944. He was attached to the information to the armed forces section where he was engaged in the production of Canadian Affairs. His period of secondment to the wartime information board ceased on February 28, 1946.


Gordon Graydon: I used the word "convicted". I presume these men are both still on trial and have not been convicted. I am not sure of the names and was only seeking information. In view of the fact that the matter was before the courts, I thought we should not discuss it inasmuch as it would not be justice.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The minister mentioned that the ambassador to Brazil receives the airmail bulletin and that is how he helps to build up Canada in Brazil. I have here a copy of Monday, June 24, 1946, and I do not believe that any of this information is of much use to them in Brazil:
New army R.C. chaplain named. Brigadier Gibson heads M.P. 6. Colonel Bogart heads M.P. 3. Canadian merchandise exports decline. Births, deaths and marriages increase.
Information Service

There is a whole page of it and not a bit of it of any use to the ambassador there or to the people of Brazil. It is absolute bunk.


Brooke Claxton: The information contained in the airmail bulletin is not bunk. It is a report of events that happened that day, and of course different events take place from day to day. This bulletin is issued daily to all representatives of Canada abroad and its circulation totals 890 odd daily. It goes in Canada only to those who specially request it and have reason for asking for it. It is sent by air mail. The hon. member for Peterborough West suggested in his previous remarks that it is slow, that the ordinary sources of Canadian news are sufficient to carry the news contained in it. Well, this bulletin goes to fifty-two countries or colonies in which very little Canadian news is received. In none of them is there such regular news as that given in the airmail bulletin. It is sent by air mail because that is the most expeditious way of forwarding it without the cost of cable. Let me ask the hon. member whether in Brazil, for example, or in China, or in any of the other countries, except perhaps the United Kingdom and the United States, there is anything like the same news provided as quickly about Canada as is contained in the air mail bulletin. It is a succinct summary of news of each day. It contains no editorial opinions, nothing but bare news, and the news of course varies from day to day.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: This airmail bulletin is of use only to ambassadors or consuls in the different countries, the persons who really write and ask for it, and the information that is contained in the bulletin is not exactly what those people want. They would get better information from the Department of Trade and Commerce, and that department has its own bulletin and employs its own men to get out its information. Through the Department of Trade and Commerce information is supplied throughout the world and that is what these people want. They do not want the stuff contained in an airmail bulletin of this kind. This is only a sample. All the others that I have seen are exactly the same. The minister says that some are printed in French, but the people in France do not want them. Others are printed in Spanish. But who is going to read them in the Argentine, where Spanish is spoken, or in Chile, or Columbia, or Ecuador, or Peru.


Brooke Claxton: This bulletin is sent to Canadian representatives abroad so that they may keep continuously informed in a summary way about events at home and they get

news much more quickly than through any other source. It is also for the convenience of those who wish to pass on the news to people who speak some other language. These bulletins are designed primarily for the information of the people who represent us abroad, but it is given in a form which enables them to use it in passing it on to others who may be interested in the particular subject. The hon. member says that he finds the particular number to which he refers of the character that he has described. I receive these bulletins regularly, and I know they contain as accurate and succinct a summary of essential Canadian news as it is possible to draw up. They go out and are appreciated by officers of the Department of External Affairs and of Trade and Commerce and by the Canadian information service officers and any other officers of the Canadian service abroad.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: In my opinion a bulletin of ' this kind sent out by the Department of Trade and Commerce in cooperation with the Department of External Affairs would give information that was worth while to people in those countries instead of giving local news such as we find here. For example, I saw this item in the Montreal Gazette of this morning with reference to this resolution:
External Affairs has publicity men attached to many of its embassies and legations in other countries, and Trade and Commerce properly has such services to help promote foreign trade. There are Canadian publicity people in many parts of the world already, and there is no need for more.
I agree with the article in that paper.


Brooke Claxton: Earlier in the day I referred to the Montreal ..Gazette's news report from Ottawa with the editorial comment. The Department of External Affairs has no publicity officers abroad except those supplied by the Canadian information service. The Department of External Affairs and the Department of Trade and Commerce are represented in the advisory committee of the Canadian information service, and I should also add that they are represented on the working committee. There is a working committee set up with representatives of the publicity branch of the Department of Trade and Commerce. Its exhibition commissioner and its tourist bureau and the national film board and the CBC international service are on this working committee. They meet every week to work out the coordination of material which should be sent out and the coordination of activities. They work together in the closest possible way. Only to-day I was told that there are a number of communications

Information Sendee
by telephone and by personal interview between these three every day. If we did not have the Canadian information service providing the service for External Affairs, the Trade and Commerce officers and other officers of the Canadian government I feel, and I think the committee will agree, that it would have to be provided in some other way. It seems to us to be most economical that it should be done by one central service rather than by a variety of services. That does not mean that External Affairs do not send to their officers abroad special information related to external affairs. It does not mean that Trade and Commerce do not send to their officers abroad special information on general matters relating to Canada as a whole. The Canadian information service, working with External Affairs and Trade and Commerce, sends out the material.


Howard Charles Green: It might be cheaper to send out the Globe and Mail.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I should like to follow that up in relation to the questions which I asked the minister and on which he spoke before six o'clock, namely, the relation between these services and the two departments of External Affairs and Trade and Commerce. In reply to that question, the minister said it was felt that we must have personnel abroad giving information about Canada. He said he thought the committee would agree with that general statement in the light of present circumstances and present development in the world. Perhaps I would be inclined to agree with that statement, subject to one important qualification, namely, that the object in mind in giving information about Canada was related to some specific government policy; as I say, policy perhaps calculated to encourage immigration into Canada. We see no evidence of such policy. If it be policy calculated to foster Canadian export trade with a certain country or groups of countries, then I submit that that policy could be better furthered by the Department of Trade and Commerce. Or if it be policy calculated to improve our ambassadorial relations with other countries, then I suggest that that policy could be better furthered by the Department of External Affairs. Unless the desire to disseminate information about Canada is related to some specific gavemment policy, we submit that this is an extravagance which Canada can afford to do without.
If the object of maintaining this Canadian information service is designed to improve our external relations or o\ir export or import trade, what department is better qualified
to do these things than either the Department of External Affairs or the Department of Trade and Commerce? Surely the minister does not suggest that the ambassadors, high commissioners and the first, second and third secretaries of the Department of External Affairs live in a vacuum and do not know anything about Canada and are not qualified to disseminate information about Canada; or that,the Department of Trade and Commerce, which at this very moment is running courses particularly to train young men and women who have returned from overseas, to teach them about Canada, its people and its various provinces, and all its aspects- not just trade-is not qualified to disseminate information about Canada. The Department of Trade and Commerce is spending a lot of money on teaching these people these things, and the department has a publicity branch which surely is qualified-if it is qualified to do anything-to send information overseas to the trade commissioners who go there.
The work of carrying out the objects which the minister has put forward in justification of the setting up of this service could be done a great deal more cheaply by utilizing the media of the already established departments. It would be cheaper to do it in that way than to set up a separate service which must inevitably duplicate and overlap the services that are being carried on by the two departments I have mentioned. That is the whole point. If we want the Departments of External Affairs and Trade and Commerce to exist in a vacuum, then, of course, we should make an attack on their estimates; but if we do not want them to exist in a vacuum which we do not, then I suggest they should take over the function which the minister has outlined as being the responsibility of the Canadian information service, and which they can discharge a great deal more cheaply and probably a great deal more efficiently.


Edmund Davie Fulton: With all deference, are there not some ideas in my statement on which the minister should make some comments?


Brooke Claxton: I have already dealt with it before and after six o'clock, and said that close considerations were very much in the minds of these people who had to decide on whether or not the Canadian information service should be carried on separately by External Affairs and Trade and Commerce, each working in its own way, or by some agency in which they were both represented. It seems to me that the hon. member for
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Kamloops has made out a very good ease for doing it as a coordinated activity, and that is the way-


Edmund Davie Fulton: Then cut down on the estimates of the other two departments.


Brooke Claxton: No, if you do not do it in this way you would have to add to the estimates of the other two departments if you wanted to have the service performed. We believe that there is a large desire to see that service performed; there is general need of seeing it performed. Somebody must do it and it seemed to us to be the most advisable way to do it. I can assure the hon. member that the supervisory committee with the representatives of External Affairs and Trade and Commerce, who are usually the under-secretary of state and the deputy minister, and the working committee with other representatives from each department

and the working -committee meets at least once a week-secure the most effective coordination and cooperation. If they saw there was any better way of doing it they would be glad to do it-they would have done it. But neither they nor the government as a whole have seen a better way of doing it.
May I say just a word further about the cost of a service of this kind. The amount sought in the estimates this year is $640,700 for Canada. In the United States estimates for similar services have been passed to the amount of $24,584,778; in the United Kingdom, $30,598,107; in Australia, $1,419,380; in Brazil, $2 million; and in the Netherlands, $S64,000. I do not mention these as indicating that we should necessarily spend the same sum. We are not spending anything like comparable sums on a per capita basis, particularly having in mind our widespread interests. But I mention it to indicate that in other countries people who are occupied with similar responsibilities have decided that very much larger sums, in comparison, should be spent on similar services.
If I might just answer an observation which was made earlier, namely that which suggested that these services should be on a fair basis within Canada, these services are designed primarily to extend beyond the boundaries of Canada. They are not aimed directly to do anything to affect public opinion in Canada. The services within Canada are those of coordination and assistance to existing government departments. The service is primarily designed for the dissemination of knowledge and information about Canada outside the boundaries of our own country.
[Mr. Claxton 1


Edmund Davie Fulton: Following up the question I asked before, if, as the minister has said, it is the desire to coordinate the external work of the Department of External Affairs and the Department of Trade and Commerce, why was it decided to put the work of this coordinating committee under a separate minister, namely the Minister of National Health and Welfare? Is it possibly because he is the minister of propaganda for the government; or what good reason can be advanced for that decision?


Brooke Claxton: I very much resent
the suggestion that I am minister of propaganda for the government. I do not think the hon. member means that, seriously.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I would not be surprised if he did.


Brooke Claxton: Well, then, I would ask the hon. member to withdraw it.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I will not withdraw until I am proven wrong in making that suggestion.


Ernest George Hansell: I was on my feet once or twice, Mr. Chairman. You saw me, but I did not want to break continuity of argument. I agree to a great extent with the arguments of hon. members who have preceded me. Personally, I cannot see why the Department of National Health and Welfare should have to care for an institution known as the Canadian information service.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: They are looking after it because it is sick.


Ernest George Hansell: What is it that we have to make known through this information service? Surely we do not require it in Canada. WTe have our daily press and our periodicals.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: And our pulpits.


Ernest George Hansell: We have radio stations, and our own Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Our pulpits and our pews.


Ernest George Hansell: These institutions disseminate all the information we need at home. What is the purpose? The purpose must be that we like to send information abroad, but what information do we have to send abroad? It is very nice to establish friendly relations with other countries, and I agree that that should be done, because we want to be friendly with other countries, and we have a shortwave broadcasting station at Sackville from which we give a world service for that purpose.

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So far as I can see, the only thing we have to let other people know is what we have to sell. If we want to advertise to the world that we have a big wheat crop and are looking for customers, all well and good. That is something which would come under the Department of Trade and Commerce. If we want to advertise Canada as the happy hunting ground for tourists, that would come under the same department. If we have anything to sell, the same is true. I am not going to make any charges or accusations; but I am suggesting that the Canadian information service will go beyond making known what Canada has to sell to the rest of the world.
I was interested in the speech made by the minister, [DOT] a speech which evidently was prompted by the hon. member for Peace River, the leader of this party. I was interested to note that when the minister was discussing matters requring the use of the expressions "divergence of views" or "controversial subjects", somehow- or another he seemed to have the mentally cramped view that those subjects of a controversial nature all exist within the confines of political partyism.
That is not so. He seemed to advance the argument that the organization now to be known as the Canadian information service had no more interest in Liberal policies than in those of other parties. Personally I am not greatly interested in that, because so far as I am concerned there are only two philosophies in the world.
I do not care particularly what party a man belongs to; if he disagrees with some other party I will guarantee that that disagreement is on methods of administration and not on ultimate objectives, or deep-seated policies and principles. There are only two philosophies in the world, one of which is the philosophy of free men, always recognizing the freedom of the individual and the principle that every man should be established in his own right without interference from any other person, body or government. That is one principle. The other is the philosophy of world statism.
I do not know whether the minister would be prepared to make comment on this point, but I say that when any information service, public body or radio deals with ways of life it must deal with one or other of those two philosophies. As a Canadian people believing in British democratic institutions-and I use the term "British" because I believe we do hold to those great Christian virtues-will the minister guarantee to the house that a Canadian news service will not propagate anything to the contrary view? I do not think he will.
Will he say that his Canadian information service will not at times give out information on Canada's foreign policy? Will he say that they will not? Let me say that you cannot write or think or speak foreign policy without advocating one philosophy or the other. That is why I wanted the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) to make a few pronouncements the other day before leaving for the peace conference.
I am not concerned with Liberalism or Conservatism or socialism or social credit, but I contend that the minister holds one or the other of the philosophies I have mentioned, *whether he is a Liberal or anything else. I will almost guarantee that the foreign policy of the Minister of National Health and Welfare individually is no different from the foreign policy of the hon. member for Rose-town-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell).


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It must be a good
policy if they both agree on it.


Ernest George Hansell: I am not debating the merits of the policy. You cannot say that one is a Liberal policy and the other a C.C.F. policy. I am not personally so much concerned over the Canadian information service boosting a party-of course I should like them to boost ours a little-but I do not think that is the danger; the danger is the propagation of philosophies for which the Canadian people do not stand.
Let me add one more word. This service is to cost well over half a million dollars. That may not sound so much since we talk in terms of astronomical financial figures, but half a millions dollars is a lot of money when you do not need to spend it. When the leader of the official opposition was speaking the other inght about cutting expenditures the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley) asked where they could be cut. Here is half a million dollars. One of our biggest items of expenditure is in connection with the national film board and you could do away with that completely.
But I am not speaking only about cutting expenditures. We are setting up in Canada what I will call institutions for want of a better name, one of which is known as the Canadian information service. That is a nice name, but I a.m a little leery of nice names because so often we do not know what they really mean. This Canadian information service is being set up under a Liberal administration and it is gradually growing to enormous proportions. Then there is the Canadian Broadcasting corporation.
I am not going to be highly critical of these three institutions, provided that they are administered in the proper way. However,
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there is no guarantee that Liberal administration is going to be in power forever-I hope they are not. There is no guarantee that the Conservatives are going to be in power. There is no guarantee that the C.C.F. are going to be in power. The present administration will not be in forever because we are living in a changing world.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It has not changed very much in twenty years.


Ernest George Hansell: The Minister of Veterans Affairs has a habit of interrupting me. I would not mind that so much if he would only speak in English so that I could understand him. I said that the world' is in a state of unrest, and so is Canada. The other night the Minister of Finance gave us a glowing picture of what the government were trying to do. I sat back and said to myself, "I did not think we were living in such a wonderful country. How is it there is so much unrest if everything is so lovely?"
We are living in a time of unrest. If another government should come into office, either through the process of our democratic form of election or in some other way-believe me that is not without possibilities to-day-if a government holding to the philosophy of dictatorship should come into office the machinery would already be there for them to take over. What would be a greater plum for a dictatorship administration than the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation? The act governing this corporation would not need to be changed by one word. This new government would have this huge propaganda machine all ready for their own purposes. You would not be talking in terms of Liberalism or Conservatism or socialism or social credit then.
Another plum that would be ready to fall into their lap would be the national film board. This could be used to propagate what they would probably term the new order. Then we have the Canadian information service, one of the triplets of propaganda institutions which a government of that kind would find all ready for them. What would they say? They would say, "We did not bring them into existence; it was a previous government that prided itself on free institutions that brought these things into existence."	How often have I heard the
Prime Minister say over the years that he was here to protect free institutions.
That is the picture and we are spending millions of dollars on that type of machinery. I am not going to say that the national film board did not do some reasonably good work with certain films dealing with the danger
fMr. Hansel!.!
of inflation and "Canada Carries On" and that sort of thing, but I want to say that if they think they can compete with the fine arts of the motion-picture business they have another think coming because it cannot be done.
I am going to ask the minister one question and I would request him not to make a long speech.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: What about yourself?


Ernest George Hansell: I am making only the one speech, but the minister makes a speech every time he is asked a question. I want to know if he will place the names of all members of parliament on the mailing list of the Canadian information service for all their publications.


An hon. MEMBER:: Oh, no.


Ernest George Hansell: I do not expect the hon. member to read them all if he does not want to. I will confess to the minister that if he puts my name on and I get those publications I shall read them for one purpose only, and that is to check up on them to see whether or not they are propagating something that is not in accordance with our free democratic way of life.


Brooke Claxton: Until the Canadian information service was created out of the wartime information board all hon. members were always asked if they wished to be on mailing lists, but when the Canadian information service was set up with this changed orientation to provide for the dissemination of news abroad, the people on the mailing list were notified that their names would be cut off unless they wanted the information. In consequence of that, the mailing lists have been revised, but if any hon. member wants any information from Canadian information service he will certainly get in.


Mr. LENNARD:: On looking over this
copy of the airmail bulletin, my interpretation is that it is nothing more or less than a daily news column for the Canadian legations abroad. It is a glorification of that column in Time called "Milestones", which starts off with the births and1 ends with the deaths. It also reminds me of another well-known column in our daily and weekly newspapers, Walter Winehell's. It is in my opinion, a good Whiter Winchell column.


Gordon Graydon: I have been looking over a question which was passed as an order for a return on Monday, July 8, in the name of the hon. member for Peterborough West. I have been looking over the various daily, weekly, semi-monthl'', monthly and occasional

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publications of the Canadian information service, and the thing that struck me coming as I do from an agricultural part of the country-and. remember that thirty-five per cent of the people of Canada are still on the farms or in our rural parts-was this. If this information service is going to do the great job the minister speaks of, I have two questions to ask. I notice a reference to field reports but I presume that does not refer to the kind of fields the farmer knows about. My first question is that: How many people competent to write of or deal with agriculture are connected with the Canadian information service? Second, what service does it give to that thirty-five per cent of our population who are on the farms?


Brooke Claxton: The hon. member has asked a question which presumably relates to the proposed information service to be set up in consequence of this resolution and to carry on the Canadian information service.


Gordon Graydon: You are carrying it on now under order in council.


Brooke Claxton: Yes. That service, under the terms of the order in council and under the terms of the resolution, does not aim to disseminate information in Canada. It aims to disseminate information abroad and to coordinate and assist existing Canadian information services. The hon. member will appreciate that, since it is not designed to send information to the people of Canada, it is not designed to send any information particularly to the class that he mentioned, any more than to any other class in Canada. But I would add that in all its work the Canadian information service naturally seeks the cooperation and assistance of the government departments having experts on any subject, and that cooperation is readily offered. They all work together, just as would be done in any other joint activity, to get out tl e material. They seek the advice of the people who are competent to give it in the technical fields.	.


Gordon Graydon: I perhaps did not make myself clear. What I had in mind was that . thirty-five per cent or more of our Canadian people are rural people, and if we are going to give a true picture of Canada to other countries of the world and we do not give a complete picture of Canada agriculturally coming from competent hands, it seems to me that we are falling down on the job and not carrying out the responsibility of the Canadian information service. What I wanted to know was how many people are there in the Canadian information service who are competent to write or give information about agriculture to other countries. That question links up closely with another question which has arisen in External Affairs. One of the main qualifications for men or women entering the diplomatic service in Canada is that they should be university graduates. To that I take some exception, but at present it is the rule. Men and women are chosen out of the universities of Canada to go into the diplomatic service, but not a single person has yet been chosen from an agricultural college in the Dominion of Canada for the diplomatic service, although one-third of our population are farm people. I do not want to plead' sectionalism with respect to occupation, but when you completely eradicate the farmer it is time somebody spoke up on his behalf.


Brooke Claxton: We are getting away from the subject, but when the hon. member says that not a single person in the diplomatic service has been chosen from an agricultural college 1 think he overlooks the case of Doctor Riddell, who was himself a professor of agriculture and served Canada notably abroad.


Gordon Graydon: Since the war, the External Affairs Department has expanded greatly and new qualifications for entry into the diplomatic service have been set up. One of the main ones, to which I take exception, is a university education. Since this rule went into effect not a single person has been taken into the diplomatic service from an agricultural college. I would be the first to agree with the minister as to Doctor Riddell's high qualifications but he was chosen long before this rule came into effect with the great expansion of the external affairs department.


Brooke Claxton: I am informed that more than one-third of those engaged in the production of material for the Canadian information service were brought up on farms ind that a considerable number have worked on farms or on farm weeklies. But when it comes to matters requiring technical up-to-date knowledge the service goes to the department concerned to get expert assistance from that department.


Stanley Howard Knowles: First of all, as one who has already expressed support for the proposal before us, I want to say that I was disappointed to hear the minister state that in the reorientation that has taken place in W.I.B. becoming C.I.S., there is less being done now domestically than was formerly the case; that C.I.S. is mainly for the dissemination of
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information abroad. I want to say something about providing sufficient information abroad in a moment. But first I do want to put in a plea for the greater use of the Canadian information service in Canada. If nothing else, it seems to me that at least it ought to be noised abroad throughout this country that here is a place to which the people may write from any part of Canada to get information on any kind of subject in which they are interested. I suppose that the really effective Canadian information service at the present time consists of the members of this house. 'We are the ones who get requests from all over the country for information which we try to dig up. I think there is a job for the Canadian information service domestically to a greater extent than the minister has indicated.
However, I want to turn now and make a plea to the minister on the basis of the Canadian information service being at the moment primarily for the dissemination of information abroad. I dislike making frequent references to my own short experience overseas a few months ago; but on the basis of that, there is this I want to say on behalf of Canadians who are working in embassies in other countries, namely that they would like to have a great deal more information than they now receive. This was said to me by third secretaries and stenographers-I will put it down at that level if you like.


Gordon Graydon: You mean, up at that level.


Stanley Howard Knowles: You are right-up at that level.


Mr. REID:: And they need more in Great Britain, when a member of parliament brought a fur coat here in July, when we had a temperature of 100 degrees.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I am sure he was not a member from Scotland.


Thomas Reid: You are right.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The way it was put to me several times was that Canadians abroad working in our embassies are called upon- it is part of their job-to collect all the information they can about the countries they are working in, to send that information home ;o Canada. They would like to be treated n the same way. So far as they are con-:erned, they feel that, even though the departments here think they are sending them plenty of material, they are somewhat stranded. The hon. member for Peel will *[DOT]emember that the employees in the embassy
at Paris expressed that view to us, and they did so in other places we visited. I had the experience of being in Moscow during rather a. dramatic week, namely when the Prime Minister made a certain announcement in this country last February. I experienced with our diplomatic people there the sense of being stranded, and they said to me almost every day, "We are being asked to send home all kinds of information, but we do not know what is going on at home at all"; and as a matter of fact I was clear back in Canada myself before I knew anything about Canadian reactions to that particular incident.
I quote my own experience, brief as it was, merely in confirmation of the kind of plea that some of these people made to me, that they be given more information. I recognize that the Department of External Affairs has interests which keep it from doing as much of that job as it should, but here is a field for the Canadian information service. I hope they will realize that it is not just a case of giving news to these people over there; it is a case of increasing the effectiveness of our Canadian representatives all around the world, if they are given more information about what is going on back in Canada. I suggest to the minister that he be not afraid to give to these people through the Canadian information service at least a summary of opinions in Canada, a summary of editorials in newspapers of various political stripes. Just to confine it to factual material of the kind that has been read from a few samples to-night is not good enough. I come back to what I said before; I do not think we should be afraid of the word "politics". Political parties are a definite factor in our country, and these people have the right to a complete picture of what is going on.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: I can only approach this subject from the way in which I think, the average voter in Rosedale riding would look at it. When one sees an appropriation of $640,700 for the Canadian information service the question- immediately arises, do we need this service, and what does it do that would not otherwise be provided? When we remember that many a taxpayer is endeavouring to live out of his or her earnings-if single, * on $750 a year before reaching the taxation bracket, or if married, $1,500 a year, and I defy anyone to live decently in the city of Toronto on either of these sums, whether he be single or married, for it would be quite impossible-I believe that we should curtail a lot of our expenditures, no matter how necessary they are, until we can grant exemptions from taxation so that the government

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does not become an agency for lowering the standard of living of our people below what must be considered a minimum of decency. Then we find that the tourist business is going to spend 8650,000 in order to encourage tourists. That may be a justifiable expenditure because it brings in dollars and cents to Canada. But we find that this Canadian information service that is proposed to be set up is not concerning itself with trade and publicity, because there is an item in that department for trade, publicity and advertising in Canada and abroad of 8459,000, or an increase of $306,860. And here may I just say, that the Department of Trade and Commerce publishes an interesting little booklet, called "Canada, 1946", or whatever the year may be, which is an abstract of the Canada Year Book. This is a valuable book which not only gives information to Canadians, particularly to .students, but is also of extreme value to people from other countries who wish to get a bird's-eye view of what the industry and commerce of Canada is about. This book used to be made available to members at a cost of ten cents a copy. We had a man who looked after some economies, apparently, in this government. During the war years he took off the special rate to members, and if you want to buy a copy now to give away it costs you twenty-five cents. I believe that the government would be well advised to review some of the policies, even the policy of economy which in this case, I think, is false economy, and make this excellent and valuable book available to all hon. members, so that they may give it as wide a distribution as possible. I think I carry the judgment of the Minister of Trade and Commerce in this regard, but apparently no change has yet been made in the price.
What will my constituents think when they find that the rehabilitation information branch is to have 8242,000 appropriated for it, and the national film board, $1,030,683, and that is charged under "demobilization and reconversion", just why I do not know, the same way as Canadian information service is charged. Why it does not come under the ordinary peace-time estimates is another question on which the minister might give us some information. Then the national film board, in addition to the million dollars it gets under demobilization and reconversion, gets 8860,000 under the ordinary revenues. These are both items which many of my * constituents feel to be of doubtful value.
In regard to the whole matter of an information service run by the government, it is my belief, founded on some observations and information which I have received, that
the press generally in this country and abroad would much prefer to get their information at first hand, and not have the interposition of some special government department which "shades" the information and goes over it, censors it and dresses it up in the form which the department thinks is most appropriate, whereas trained newsmen are best fitted to give to the pubic that which the public wants to read about.
We have in this country, I believe, no ideology which we are trying to propagandize at the present time. The minister in fact resented the suggestion that, as being the responsible head of this ministry of information, he was in effect a minister of propaganda. That is another reason why I believe that what news there is about Canada should be left to the ordinary channels of publicity and not be given the imprimatur of the government or given any direction from governmental sources. Just where there is any actual dollars and cents advantage to be derived from an appropriation of $640,000 for the Canadian information service I do not know. It may be that it is an interesting and useful service to the department of External Affairs when our representatives are abroad, but it does not seem to me that having hourly or daily information about what is happening in the domestic field in Canada is exactly the reason why we send representatives abroad. They should have a knowledge of the broad problems of Canada, should know what the political trends are, if you like, and what the external policy of the country is; but who is in command of military district No. 3, et cetera, is not the type of thing which the taxpayers, in the constituency of Rosedale at any rate, are interested in funishing to our external representatives.
There is a limit to the taxpayer's burden, and he is already feeling that that limit is too high in view of the fact that we are no longer under the dire necessity of fighting a war for the preservation of our liberties. We think we are back in peace time, and we want to see some incentive restored to the people so that they can work, and work overtime if they desire, and in doing so obtain some benifit for themselves.
Canada's name has always stood high in the world and in the neighbouring republic to the south of us. It stood equally high if not higher in the days before we ever had an information service, and I fail to see how this particular department can be of use to Canada. If we are a first-rate nation and behave ourselves as we should toward our neighbours; if we are a good people, as we
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are, then our light will not be hidden, under a bushel; it will come to the surface and the world will recognize us for what we are. We do not need, therefore, any artificial information of this sort sent abroad for the purpose of publicizing our country.
There is news value in many of the government departments and the press are always eager to have releases, and do not wish to have the interposition of some agency which will tamper with and possibly dampen the effectiveness of that news. Information which the government puts out under such a department as this almost inevitably tends to become propaganda. The department may start out with the very best faith in the world and conduct itself along the, most scrupulous lines. But there is the inevitable human tendency to slant news a particular way in which one wants it to go, and it is my firm belief, and I believe the conviction of the majority of Canadians, that if items that are of news value in the country are given to our newspaper men-there are plenty of them,; our press gallery is full of able men looking for news-that is the best way to publicize the merits of the country. I suggest, therefore, that an expenditure of this kind can be done away with, particularly when the tax burden upon the people is so high.


Howard Charles Green: I wish to direct to the minister two questions, one, having to do with service given abroad, and the second with the domestic service. With regard to the service abroad, am I fair in saying that this plan was hit upon early in the war to promote Canada's war effort, that we wanted to secure the greatest sympathy possible from the United States, and wished also to give the fullest information to Great Britain concerning our war effort and to inform other members of the commonwealth of that effort? Later on, it developed into the work of promoting the cause of the allies in the nations that were not at war. That was the genesis of the work abroad and, as hon. members know, the body charged with this work was called the wartime information board. It clearly was intended for wartime purposes. Now, having come to the end of the war, the government is trying to change direction, to find some new work for this information service to carry on, and as a result we have the plans that have been outlined by the minister to-day. With regard to the service abroad, it was designed primarily, in fact entirely, for the war, and now there is an attempt to build up something new for

peace. I would ask the minister to say whether I am fair in summing up the situation in that way.
With regard to the domestic service, the minister has pointed out that the work is to coordinate the publicity of different branches of government. That means, it seems to me, that this information service must be the top-dog, that it must be in charge of publicity services given by the different departments. I should like to know whether that is so. Otherwise I do not see that the service can accomplish a great deal. It would be interesting also to know how many persons there are on the staff of the service at the present time, how many of them are abroad, how many in Canada, and what the plans are for the next year with regard to staff.


Brooke Claxton: The hon. member for Vancouver South suggests that .this activity was created in time of war. That is obvious; and, as he said, it was primarily designed to improve the knowledge of Canada abroad and to create an understanding among the allies and to cooperate to the best possible advantage. I think it did that very well and worked together with other information sendees to that end. But, the hon. member says, with the close of the war now, there is an effort to find some new work for this agency which was created in war time. May I say with respect that that is not so at all. It would have been very easy indeed to disband this activity, had it not been found that continuously during the period of conversion from war to peace, as the war ended and we entered the period of peace, the same need continued to exist, though in different forms and with the same object, namely, to spread abroad knowledge and information about. Canada as the basis of international understanding and, we hope, trade and security. But, further, we found that we were getting from countries like Brazil orders which were traceable not only to the fact that we had the goods but also to the fact that there was an understanding of Canada built up in Brazil. That, as I say, was traceable, in part, to Brazil's information about Canada. There was that understanding and confidence built up in that way. It is impossible to say how much of any order is attributable to any particular source and what, the cause of it is.


Howard Charles Green: Probably some of that information would come from the ordinary press of both countries.


Brooke Claxton: Yes, but you find little mention of Canada in the press of Brazil and vice versa.

Information Service
The second question was on coordination and the hon .member asks whether the information service will be top-dog. That is not intended at all. The plan is to coordinate the activities of the government regarding matters in which a number of departments have an interest.


Howard Charles Green: Can the minister give us some examples?


Brooke Claxton: Yes, on food information. Not long ago the government announced a policy regarding food which I think secured the general support of the people. In order to make that policy known and to secure the support of the Canadian people in restricting their own consumption of food, there was a publicity campaign which took different forms. That was done under the food information committee which was set up with the assistance of the Canadian information service.


Howard Charles Green: That really is giving publicity within Canada.


Brooke Claxton: Only in so far as coordination and assisting is concerned; but that committee, which was an interdepartmental committee, was responsible for the information in Canada. The Canadian information service acted as a coordinating agency, supplied technically equipped secretariat and assisted the committee in putting out material. It issued something itself, but rendered essential service to an interdepartmental body.
With regard to the final question as to the number on the staff, there are now on the staff 109, of whom twenty-five are overseas. It is not the intention to increase the staff in any substantial way. The peak of the staff of the wartime information board was 189, with some twenty people on loan from other departments. Therefore there has been about a fifty per cent reduction from the peak of the wartime information board.


Howard Charles Green: Are there any people on loan from any department at the present time?


Brooke Claxton: The figure of 109 includes them.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: With only that slight reduction in staff-


Brooke Claxton: Fifty per cent.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Yes. According to a return I have here, during war time there were over fifty-two publications put out by the wartime information board. At the present time only nine are being published. There must be something wrong when so large a staff is required to put out so few publications.


Brooke Claxton: The answer is that in order to do the ordinary service of the information board it is necessary to have a certain basic staff. As soon as you add to that staff you can turn out much more in the way of printed and1 mimeographed material without any corresponding increase in overhead. But in order to furnish the basic services of information, answers to questions, reference materials and other releases, it is necessary to have a certain minimum staff.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I inferred from what the minister said that the wartime information board and the Canadian information service have helped to create trade between Canada and Brazil. I do not agree with that at all. Canadians have been in Brazil for years. It is the Canadians who are there and the Department of Trade and Commerce that have created that trade and not the Canadian information service.


Mr. McKAY:: Am I correct in saying that the minister said there were 107 members on the staff at the present time?


Brooke Claxton: No, 109.


Eric Bowness McKay: Of those 109, 105 are veterans,
I believe?


Brooke Claxton: No, I did not say so.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Twenty-five are overseas?


Eric Bowness McKay: Twenty-five are overseas.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Are overseas now.


Brooke Claxton: Yes.


Eric Bowness McKay: How many of the present staff are veterans of either world war I or world war II? I misunderstood the ministers' statement.


Brooke Claxton: The break-down I have is as of March 31, 1946. There was a total of 106 on the staff at that time. Of that number thirty-one are males and seventy-five females. With overseas service there is a total of twelve, and with service in Canada, five.


Mr. BRACKEN:: Before this resolution passes may I ask two or three questions? Is it a fact that in all of the services of the government there are publicity branches?


Brooke Claxton: Yes.


John Bracken: Is there a considerable publicity branch in connection with External Affairs?	.


Brooke Claxton: No, none at all, not a single man.


John Bracken: In connection with Trade and Commerce?


Brooke Claxton: Yes.
Information Service


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: We have one in our department.


John Bracken: I have listened to this discussion to-night and I say frankly that the minister has not made out a strong case for the resolution before the committee. I should like to say to him that when the bill comes up for second reading, if he does not make out a better case than he has made to-night, this party will have to oppose the measure.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Claxton thereupon moved for leave to introduce bill No. 305, respecting the Canadian information service.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair.
DEMOBILIZATION AND RECONVERSION Privy Council Office-
591. Canadian information service, $640,700.


Stanley Howard Knowles: There was just one question with respect to the resolution which has been passed which the minister did not answer, and this is the same item. Will the bill make the Minister of National Health and Welfare responsible for the Canadian information service?


Brooke Claxton: The bill provides that the Canadian information service shall have a supervisory committee which shall be composed of the following persons: "one member, who shall be the chairman to be appointed by the president of the privy council", and so on. That heads up the supervisory committee. Then the position of the minister is defined in paragraph (d) of section 2, which reads as follows:
"Minister" means the president of the privy council or such other minister as may be designated by the governor in council to be responsible for the administration of this act.
That essentially follows the pattern which has been in existence before, whereby the president of the privy council was the minister responsible. On my ceasing to be parliamentary assistant to the president of the privy council, because I had become familiar with the workings of the service I was named the minister responsible to parliament for the service.


Stanley Howard Knowles: It is anticipated that will be the case.


Brooke Claxton: That will remain with the president of the privy council.


Howard Charles Green: What other boards or governmental organizations are under the president of the privy council, as this board is to be?


Brooke Claxton: I do not know of any. The items in the estimates for the president of the privy council are items Nos. 589, 590, 591, 592 and 593. I do not know of any other boards or services just in the same position.


Howard Charles Green: Then, this is really a new departure. For the first time we have a board of this type being put under the president of the privy council, rather than directly under the minister.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: It is not the first time.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I rise to a point of order. I understood this afternoon that the estimates of the minister's department were to be called, but not this item for the Canadian information service. It was stated this afternoon during the course of the debate that if it was a matter of consent, we would not consent. From the order of business given yesterday evening we were entitled to assume that it was the minister's department which would be called in supply to-night.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The statement was made that the estimates of the Minister of National Health and Welfare would be called. Therefore this is properly called.


Edmund Davie Fulton: This is under the privy council office; it is not under the Department of National Health and Welfare.


Mr. HOMUTH:: And if it were not for the opposition in the house, you would not have a quorum; do you realize that?


Brooke Claxton: I cannot see that there is any other way in which the leader of the house could have described me, except as Minister of National Health and Welfare. The estimates of the department have all been dealt with.


Edmund Davie Fulton: The understanding was that it was the item dealing with the national film board, under the minister's department, which was to be called to-night. This item does not deal with the national film board.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I submit, further, that the privy council office comes properly under the jurisdiction of the Prime Minister, or the Acting Prime Minister, and not under that of the Minister of National Health and Welfare.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There was no understanding to that effect.


William Ross Macdonald: Does the item carry?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No.

Injormation Service


Edmund Davie Fulton: One moment; I should like to have your ruling on the point of order.


Brooke Claxton: On that point of order, let me point out that there certainly was not as regards myself, or, I believe, the leader of the house, any such understanding.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No.


Brooke Claxton: What he said was that the estimates remaining in the name of the Minister of National Health and Welfare were to be dealt with.


Edmund Davie Fulton: But this item is not in the name of the Minister of National Health and Welfare. Further, we want the bill before we deal with the estimate.


Brooke Claxton: As soon as that was said, it was indicated almost at once that we proposed-and there was no objection to it-that as soon as first reading was given we would go on and deal with this matter, in supply.


An hon. MEMBER:: Where is the bill?


Edmund Davie Fulton: With all due respect to the minister, I cannot accept his statement that there was no objection, because I was most careful to make objection this afternoon in the course of my remarks after the minister's statement, at which time I pointed out that we wished to have the normal procedure followed of having the bill distributed after the resolution was dealt with. We said we objected to the suggestion that the item be dealt with before the bill was distributed.
Then, with deference-and after all, we have to cooperate

we on this side took the understanding from the statement made last night that it was the item with regard to the film board which would be dealt with under the name of the Minister of National Health and W'elfare.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: If we want to be meticulous about it, there is no such thing as a point of order in connection with supply. There is no such thing as insisting upon what item will be taken up. As a matter of courtesy, we endeavour to meet the wishes of hon. members. In the present instance the minister is expected to go overseas in a day or two. He is in control of this item, and I thought that as a matter of courtesy the house would permit him to deal with it at the present time.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I appreciate what the minister has said respecting courtesy. I appreciate too, that it is a matter of courtesy when the government indicates what the business shall be. I simply pointed out that we took that
understanding. I point out, further, that there is another item under the jurisdiction of the same minister which could be considered. If it would not be interfering too much with the government's plan of procedure we would appreciate it if that item could be called rather than this one.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I appreciate my hon. friend's point of view. But, after all, the government must remain in control of the order of business in the house. We shall now proceed with this item.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Then, can we have the bill before the item is called.


William Ross Macdonald: I understand that the bill is not back from the printing bureau. As the minister has said, there is no point of order before the committee.


Edmund Davie Fulton: There is a point of good faith.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There is no breach of faith, and never has been.


William Ross Macdonald: The Chairman of the committee does not decide what the business shall be.


George Russell Boucher: Let us consider this matter coolly. We are now being asked by the government to proceed with an estimate, when the bill is not before us. That is quite irregular. We were also informed by the Minister of Veterans Affairs that we would proceed with the estimates of the Minister of National Health and Welfare, or the estimates under his name. Certainly this item is not in the name of the Minister of National Health and Welfare.
The government may have made a mistake. They may have had one thought in mind, and proceeded with another. The leader of the house says that the government must decide what business is to be proceeded with. But the government must see that the opposition is in a position to cooperate with it in proceeding with a measure when the bill has not been distributed. So, let those who ask favours give favours as well. Let us play the game squarely.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: We do not want to have any wrangling over this. Neither do we want any reproaches which are unfounded to go unanswered. There is no necessity for having the bill distributed before considering the item, because there is in existence, under an order in council which is valid and operative, and which is designed to be replaced by this bill in the interests of permanency, this Cana-
Information Service

dian information service. The order in council placed the information service under the president of the privy council.
The hon. member for Vancouver South asked if that was the only agency under the president of the privy council. There is one other; the federal district commission is under the president of the privy council. There will be a proposal under a resolution now on the order paper to transfer it from the president of the privy council to the Prime Minister.
But if hon. members are not prepared to proceed with the item which has been called at this time the government is not going to insist upon asking them to do something they are not ready to do. There was no intention to mislead or to get anything through which the house does not desire to consider. If the committee prefers to consider item 244, there will be no objection.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: If the minister had risen at the beginning and given the same explanation, there would not have been this so-called wrangling.


Mr. MUTCH:: We would have heard the same bunch of tripe, just the same.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: You can always expect some dirty remark from my little friend from Winnipeg.


Leslie Alexander Mutch: You are the last man in the house who should use that word.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Sit down; you can get up after. And don't think you are getting anything on me.


William Ross Macdonald: Order. I would ask the bon. member for Waterloo South to resume his seat. And I must remind hon. members that their remarks should be addressed to the Chair.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: If I were doing that, Mr. Chairman, I would not make the remarks about the Chair that I did about the hon. gentleman.


William Ross Macdonald: Do I understand that vote 591i stands?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Yes.


Mr. FERGUSON:: The Minister of Justice has just said that he did not want to have the opposition pass anything that they did not understand. I do not believe the people of Canada want the opposition to pass something which they do not understand or which has not been properly placed before them. That is why this opposition will not vote in that manner. It is not because we do not understand this, it is because we will not vote something that is not properly placed before us.


John Bracken: I want to commend the Acting Prime Minister for the attitude he has taken on this matter. It is quite clear that those of us on this side did not expect this item to-day and we were not ready to deal with it. You have the power to go on with it if you want to, but in view of the fact that the resolution dealing with the bill relating to this matter met with a great deal of opposition I think the Acting Prime Minister has adopted the right attitude by leaving it over until the other items in the Department of Health are dealt with.
Item stands.
DEPARTMENT OP NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE General-
National film board, including the motion picture bureau-general administration, $94,369.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I wish to make some general observations about the film board before we proceed with this vote. First of all, I should like to say a word on the subject of economy, taking my text from what the Minister of Finance said last night when he spoke about the necessity of equating revenue and expenditures at a time when we have high employment and high national income. The minister spoke to us about taking our responsibilities in this matter seriously. I did not like very much that part of his speech where he said that the suggestions from this side of the house for economy had been pathetic, that there was merely a tiny suggestion here and a tiny suggestion there. With all due respect to the minister, I would point out that I made suggestions of economy which totalled $60,000,000. If the minister thinks that is tiny and pathetic I want t'o tell him that in the constituency of Muskoka-Ontario $60,000,000 is a lot of money.
I wanted to make one or two general observations about the film board. At the outset I want to be specific in saying that I believe the film board has done useful work and can continue to do useful work, but I want to say also that I think there is a danger that new and interesting inventions may sometimes get the bit in their teeth and run away with themselves and with us and our money in a way that we should be careful about.
I have in my hand a finely got up pamphlet called "Image". This was published by the film board and is an attractive piece of advertising for the work of the board. It is done on quite nice paper which I think most of us would find it difficult to get. It begins with a most interesting letter from a gentleman well known to us, Mr. John Grierson. I regret to say that in this letter he makes some reference to the Scotch race which I

Supply-Film Board
greatly deprecate and which I am sure the Minister of Veterans Affairs will deprecate. Mr. Grieraon must be a renegade Scot, because he takes a loose view with regard to money. Mr. Grierson quotes a remark made by Mr. Winston Churchill at the end of the first war as follows:
One remembers Mr. Churchill's comment about armistice day 1918:	"A new set of conditions
began to rule from eleven o'clock onwards. The money cost, which had never been a factor capable of limiting the supply to the armies, asserted a claim to priority the moment the fighting stopped."
That was a quotation from Mr. Churchill, and Mr. Grierson added, "the results we all know". Then Mr. Grierson comes to that part to which I object, and he refers to the Scotch in the following words:
We may expect the worthies, particularly my fellow worthies of Scottish lineage, to recall their stern and frugal upbringing and dedicate themselves, with moral unction, to starving to death.
He apparently regards anything that is not spending wildly without limit as starving to death. He goes on to refer to the atomic age when apparently everything will be wonderful. In this interesting pamphlet certain references are made to the expansion of the board and I should like to refer briefly to these. I am not objecting to the expansion of the board, I am only saying that at a time when we are so heavily taxed, when we are faced with such deficits, we should count our pennies.
I want to say a little about the organization of the board, and in this connection I should like to quote from a page entitled, "Report from Washington". We have here an organization which I think is in danger of taking the bit in its teeth and running away with itself and with us. I feel we should take stock of it and make sure it is doing what we want it to do, in the way we want it to do it and in the way that other departments are doing. I quote:
The national film board of Canada has been an active agent in the Washington film scene now for well over two years.
It then goes on to refer to the setting up of the Washington office, and reference is made in the following words to one of the transactions which have taken place:
During the past year more than 400 American films produced by or for the United States have gone to Canada for deposit in the film board's preview film library.	.
I skip again and read from the bottom of
the paragraph*:
By reason of their larger share in the war information budgets the O.W.I., treasury, army and navy have taken the lead in the mass distribution of Canadian films, primarily orientation and morale subjects such as "Fortress Japan," "New Soldiers are Tough," and "The Peace Builders."
I do not know why these war-time films should go on now, but apparently they still like them in the United States.
I should like to read briefly from the public accounts for the year ended March 31, 1945, and I do this in order to bring to the attention of the committee a report of the auditor general in which, speaking of the national film board, he says:
The board does not invariably follow practices which regulate departments of government. In the course of audit it was observed that purchases of articles, costing $627.95, had been made from public employees without first obtaining the customary concurrence of treasury board.
After citing one or two other things, the report states:
Order in council P.C. 107/5547 of July 19 1944, authorizes the board to pay a newsreel film editor a monthly living allowance of $40 while on an assignment in New York. Effect has not been given to this plan. Instead, in the period from August 1 to March 31 he was paid living expenses on the basis of a detailed accounting. Hotel and meal charges were $1,981.45. When converted into Canadian dollars, these payments average $275 monthly.
I am not suggesting that $40 a month is sufficient for a gentleman who has to live in New York, and I do not know why that amount was put in the order in council, but I am suggesting that it would have been desirable if it was to be changed that the change be made by the authorities who authorized the original amount. It should not have been left to the film board itself to multiply by about six what apparently the order in Council thought was sufficient for the purpose.
In making these preliminary observations and before coming to the details of the accounts, I just wish to emphasize what I said at the outset, that we should regard this new invention, this interesting tool, as something we ought to make use of, but I feel that there is a danger with these new inventions that they take charge of us and acquire a privileged position and are not subject to the same limitations as the less romantic and exciting and artistic government departments. I think we are entitled to look at the figures in the light of that, and also to ask the minister to give us a considerable amount of information as to the relationship of the board to the trade. Therefore I am proposing to ask a considerable number of questions.
I think the committee has already been told members of the board and the details of

Supply-Film Board

their appointment, the name of the film commissioner and the date of his appointment. I would ask now, what is the relation between the board and the various departments of the government? On what basis are films produced for or on behalf of the various departments of government? On what basis are they paid for?


Brooke Claxton: I did intend to make a brief statement at the beginning and also answer some of the questions which were put by the hon. member for Lethbridge, of which he was kind enough to give me notice when the estimates of the Department of National Health and Welfare were before the committee.
With regard to the quotation made by the hon. member for Muskoka-Ontario from the piece by Mr. John Grierson in "Image", Mr. John Grierson, as he knows, as well as other hon. members, is about as Scotch a Scotsman as you can find anywhere on the face of the earth.


Thomas Reid: It is a good job he escaped from here. He escaped just in time.


Brooke Claxton: He did not escape. His ' remark was not in any way unfavourable to the Scots, if taken in the light way he intended it.
With regard to the item in public accounts,
I should tell the hon. member that the item was dealt with in a way which was authorized by the treasury board itself, and it was cleared up during the accounting period in question now to the board's satisfaction. The discrepancy between the living allowance authorized and the actual allowance required was taken care of by a submission to treasury board, which thereupon approved the living allowance which was actually needed, and which was established. The comment put in by the comptroller of the treasury was fully carried out and approved by the treasury board as soon as the matter was drawn to the attention of the commissioner.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: That is the difficulty with these accounts; they are so far behind.


Brooke Claxton: Yes, There is no other way in which the public accounts can be dealt with. They have to be dealt with in arrears because of the size of the operations of government.
The hon. member for Muskoka-Ontario asked what relation was there between the board and the departments of government which ordered films. The board produces films for other government departments, and in the course of its work it produces a very

large quantity of films for other government departments. It is done in this way. If, for example, the army wants to have a film of, let us say, "Exercise Muskox", the responsible officers in the army get in touch with the officers of the film board and say: We want to get a film of "Exercise Muskox" for use in instruction. Or they may say: We want a film made for some other purpose. The film board then arranges to send with the expedition a film crew, the composition of which is worked out with the army, and the required quantity of moving and still pictures are taken, and then are subsequently edited into the kind of films that the army wants. I mention "Exercise Muskox" as a typical example. As a consequence of that, the army will very shortly have a film which will run for about an hour and be suitable for their purposes. In addition, as a by-product the national film board itself will produce a film this month in the "Canada Carries On" series, which will be shown through the commercial theatres of Canada on all commercial circuits and which will give a good picture of the kind of country and the kind of operation in which "Exercise Muskox" was engaged.


Mr. MERRITT:: When that film is shown on the commercial circuits will the commercial circuits be paying commercial prices for it, and will the government of Canada make a profit or loss on the showing of that film?


Brooke Claxton: It will be shown at
ordinary commercial rates, but the market for short subjects in Canada is such that ordinarily you cannot get a price for shorts produced in Canada which would enable the film to be produced at a profit.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: There was another side to my question. Are the films paid for by the departments which order them, and, if so, on what basis?


Brooke Claxton: They are paid for by the departments which order them on the basis of the cost of production. The film board itself has a cost accounting system, which enables the cost of each film to be allocated to that film; and then a certain percentage is added for overhead. The total amount is charged to the department, which then makes the payment, covering the actual cost of that film.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: If the film board are paid the full cost of all the work they do for the other departments, I take it that the direct vote for the film board must be for work they do for someone else?

Supply-Film Board


Brooke Claxton: The film board actually produced in the period under review, namely 1945-46, a total of 310 films. It has a very large number of subjects. Of that number a total, which I estimate might amount to 120, were produced for other departments.
Perhaps I had better give a general picture of the board's operations. Because of the way in which they have developed during the war, it has been perhaps difficult for hon. members to appreciate their extent. I remember the hon. member for Davenport speaking of them with great knowledge and appreciation some time ago. Since then, there have been a number of developments to which I shall refer.


Mr. MacNICOL:: I am going to suggest
one or two in a moment.


Mr. MacINNIS:: Even if the films produced by the board are paid for by the other departments or by commercial organizations, that would not affect the item in the estimates for the board?


Brooke Claxton: No.


Angus MacInnis: That is the point I wanted" to know.


Brooke Claxton: The estimates for the film board for this year are found in three items in these estimates, votes 244, 245 and 246, in a total of $1,106,465, and three items, votes 581, 582 and 583 in the demobilization and reconversion estimates for a total of $1,030,683. The corresponding figures for the ordinary estimates for the previous year, 1945-46, will be found in vote 230, for $810,965, and the war appropriation is to be found at page 556 of Hansard, September 28, 1945, of $1,780,000, as well as vote 537 in the supplementary estimates for $335,000, making a total of $2,925,965. This amount includes a revolving fund of $500,000. Apart from the revolving fund, the amount sought for this year represents a reduction of $288,817, or twelve per cent, from the amount sought last year. The amount also that the board anticipates to obtain from other government departments will be substantially reduced, because a large sum was provided for war activities of the armed forces, the national war finance committee and other government activities which related particularly to the war.
The national film board filed its annual report covering the period ended March 31, 1945, in October, 1945. The annual report for the year ended 31st March, 1946, will be filed as soon as possible.
During the year, film board officials, in consultation with the auditor general and the comptroller of the treasury, have made a 63260-230i
number of improvements in the system of accounting which have been designed to reconcile the situation brought about through the film board being in some respects analagous to a commercial undertaking and at the same time an agency of the government. To carry out still further the recommendations of the auditor general, the form in which the estimates are presented has been changed to provide funds for general and technical administration. These funds were formerly secured by assessing an overhead charge against each production.
During the year under review, that is 194546, the film board has carried on its activities in many fields. Altogether a total of 310 film subjects have been produced. I could, if hon. members wanted, put before the committee or place on Hansard a list of all the 310 titles produced during the year, with particulars of the government service for which they were produced, of their general nature, and such other information.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Would the minister permit a question? Has he any information about the number of films produced that have to do with developing industry through showing operations of industrial plants?


Brooke Claxton: There are quite a number devoted to that purpose, and I will give the hon. member full information about them as I come to it in my notes.


Douglas King Hazen: I think it would be valuable to have the names of these films put on record.


Brooke Claxton: I shall be glad to do that. I warn hon. members that it will be lengthy; it will take up several pages of Hansard, but if there is unanimous consent, and at the request of the committee, I shall be glad to do it. As I say, it will occupy several pages.


Douglas King Hazen: I should like to be informed at the same time what each film cost to produce, and what revenue was paid for it, or what amount was paid by some other department for it?


Brooke Claxton: The cost is on the list, and in cases where it comes from another department the revenue will be equal to the total cost. In the case of revenue from commercial sources the revenue is not shown; that would have to be worked out and allocated to each film, which might take some time, but that is relatively a small item in the - total picture.
The tabulation is as follows:
(Mr. Claxton.]



NATIONAL FILM BOARD

[Stage Direction]
Estimates 1946-47
National Film Board Productions Completed in Fiscal Year 1945-46
NOTE: 1) The costs on theatrical newsclips include charges for 111 release prints.
An asterisk * before the production number indicates that a French version has been made and included in the costs.
3	Film Board-NFB Wartime Information Board-WIB^ Munitions & Supply-M&S, Wartime Prices and Trade Board-WPTB, National War Finance
Committee- NWIC, National Defence- ND, Veterans Affairs-DVA, Post Office Department-POD, National Health and Welfare- NH&W.
Sponsor	Prod. No.	Titles	Length	Size	Colour	Distribution	Costs 1945-46[DOT]	" CANADA CARRIES ON "	1 cts.NFB	01-501	Gateway to Asia	B&W	3,781.60NFB	*01-504	Atlantic Crossroads	B&W B&W	NFB	*01-511	Road to the Reich	" «	300.54 9,665.96 6,988-01 684.86 418.15 11,395.79 8,247.95 23,575.35 8,365 01 5,850.72 2,722.76 13,201.54NFB	01-514	Headline Hunters	B&W	NFB	*01-520	Ordeal By Ice	B&W B&W	h tt 	NFB	01-523	A Harbour Goes to France	U „ 	NFB	01-525	It Happened in Springfield (preface)	102'	B&W	WPTB &	01-527	To The Ladies	B&W	NFB NFB	01-529	Music In The Wind	B&W	« tt	NFB	*01-531	Toronto Symphony	B&W	NFB	01-533	Suffer Little Children	B&W	U l( 	NFB	*01-534	A City Sings	B&W	U i( 	NFB	*01-535	Jobs for Vets (Back to Jobs)	B&W	U tt 	07-015	This Is Our Canada	2 reels	35mm	B&W	NOTE: "Toronto Symphony" shows igher costs as sufficient film footage was secured on this production for an additional film, and foreign language production costs were consequently low-see "Non-Theatrical Productions".	"WORLD IN ACTION"	NFB	* 1049	John Bull's Own Island	2 reels	B&W	1,829.69 2,022.31 13,606.09 14,501,41 7,101.15 10,479.87NFB	01-006	Maps In Action	2 reels	|35mml	B&W	NFB	*01-010	Now-The Peace	B&W	NFB	*01-011	Food-Secret of the Peace	B&W	NFB	01-012	Spotlight On The Balkans	B&W	it tt it 	NFB	01-013	Guilty Men	1 reel	35mm	B&W	tt tt It 	Note: In addition to above titles, preliminary production work was done on three films not yet released.	GENERAL THEATRICAL RELEASES	NFB	*04-903	Salute To A Victory	B&W	7,385.82 2,389.23 *31,704.41NFB	04-905	War is Over (The)	$ reel	B&W	WPTB& NWFC	06-511	Canada's Greatest Victory Loan	1 reel	35mm	Colour	"	Note: *Relatively high costs on this subject were the result of necessary revision in colour work required after V-E Day.	
o
o
g
o
Su-p-ply-Film Board

[Stage Direction]
Issue No. 96
Les Reportages	; [DOT]
(French newsreels released theatrically and non-theatrically in the Province of Quebec. There are three issues each month).
Air Observer School No. 9	
950'
Winter Sports.
875'
99
010
103
105
107
109
110 111 112
114
116
118
Members of the Maquis in Canada CBC Sackville Short Wave Station
A Soldier Returns	
Sports Events	
Logging	
Pan-American Day	
Radiomonde	
Sherbrooke Embellishing Campaign	
Art Gallery	
V-E Day Celebration in Province of Quebec and Ottawa	
Lesson of World War 1	
Canadian Exhibition in Paris	
Youth Movement	
Centenary of Anatole France	
School of Ceramists in St. Joseph de Beauce, P.Q	
St. John the Baptist Day, June 24, in Montreal	
Trout Fishing	
Canadian Women Help to Maintain Price Control	
Handicrafts in Quebec City	
Hindoo Sailors in Sorel	
National Catholic Students'Congress in Montreal	
Trois Pistoles Summer School	
Strawberries	
L'Or Noir (Wealth of the Foothills)	
Blueberries	
Summer Sports	
The Zoo	
Genealogical Institute	
Wild Horses	
Children's Library in Montreal	[DOT]
Removal of Snow in Montreal	I
Students' Provide Relief	J
978'
400'
450'
150'
800'
924'
958'
815'
135'
325'
225'
400'
901'
200'
500'
135'
250'
700'
950'
950'
950'
925'
1300'
850'
1 reel 959' 950' 950' 1005'

[Stage Direction]
Theatrical Newsclips

[Stage Direction]
Labour
M&S
Labour
NH&W
04-164
04-531
04-533
04-536
True Glory Trailer	
Dominion Provincial Conference	
Magazines for Morale	
This Side Up	
Canada Needs Nurses	
You're Only a Foot from Trouble	
Students for Farms	[DOT]	
Announce Relationship Between Family Allowance and Income Tax	
150'
3 clips 142' 73' 150' 145' 140'
146'
/35mm\	B&W	
\16mmJ		
/35mm\	tt	tt ttU6mm{ /35mm\	u	tt tt\16mmj	/35mm\	tt	tt tt\l6mmj 35 & 16mm	a	u tttt	tt tt«	tt	tt au	tt	tt utt	a	tt att	a	tt tttt	tt	tt itIt	tt	u ttIt	tt	tt ttIt	tt	u tttt	tt ttit	tt	u tttt	tt	tt utt	it	ft	tt	u tttt	tt	tt tttt	tt	tt	a	tt tttt	it	tt ttIt	u	tt ttu	u	it	u	tt tttt	u	a ttit	u	tt tttt	it	ft	tt	tt ttit	tt	tt	tt	a «35mm	B&W	au	tt	itit	tt	tttt	tttt	tt	tttt	tt	aa	tt	a
105,665.94
522.47
5.366.73 979.99
1.321.74 1,158.76
943.59
1,547.20
1,368.79
Supply-Film Board
[Mr. Claxton.1
NATIONAL FILM BOARD Estimates 1946-47
National Film Board Productions Completed in Fiscal Year 1945-46
NOTE: 1) The costs on theatrical newsclips include charges for 111 release prints.
2)	An asterisk * before the production number indicates that a French version has been made and included in the casts.
3) Abbreviations: National Film Board-NFB, Wartime Information Board-WIB, Munitions & Supply-M&S, Wartime Prices and Trade Board-WPTB, National War Finance Committee-NWFC, National Defence-ND, Veterans' Affairs-DVA, Post Office Department-POD, National Health and Welfare-NH&W.
co
a
to
Sponsor	Prod. Nc
Labour	04-538
WPTB	04-539
WPTB	04-540
Labour	04-541
WPTB		04-542
WPTB		04-543
NH&W		04-544
MAB		04-545
Labour		04-546
NWS		04-547
NH&W		04-548
WPTB		04-549
Mulberry Ex.	04-555
NFB		04-551
POD		04-554
POD		04-555
Labour		04-556
CIS		04.557
Dept. Health (Ont.)	04-558
WPTB		04-559
NFB		04.561
H&W		04-562
NWFC		04-719
NWFC		04-721
NWFC		04-722
NWFC		04-723
WPTB		06-509
WPTB		06-510
Titles
Farmers Need Help to Avoid Food Shortage... Canadian Women Help Maintain Price Control..
World Sugar Supplies Reach Dangerous Low_
A Call for Farm Commandos	
Moving to Another City	
Canadian Women Remodel Weary Wardrobes..
Community Chest	
Clothing Newsclip-Want in Wartorn Europe...
Labour for the Farms	
Red Shield Home Front Appeal	
Immunization Clip-Hon. Brooke Claxton....
Can Meat to Win the Peace	
Mulberry Comes to Canada	
Better Education-Better Canada	
Proper Addressing	
Mail Early	
Fifty Thousand Woodsmen	
Homes for Veterans	
Christmas Seal Campaign 1945	
Ration Fashion	
Students Provide Relief	
Brock Chisholm	
Ross Munro Reports More Equipment Needed	
Matthew Halton Urges Support of 8th Victory Loan.. Canadian Airman Tells of Night Raid on Brunswick.
LSB Shapiro Speaks on Eighth Victory Loan	
The Lesson of World War 1	
Inflation, Deflation	
Length
138'
140'
140'
225'
145'
140'
155'
150'
132'
150'
150'
150'
150'
150'
140'
145'
145'
78'
75'
70'
75'
75'
100'
140'
149'
130'
134'
140'
Size
Colour
Distribution
Costs
S cts.
950.81
1,642.25
1,438.55
941.78
1,301.73
1,629.54
1,573.09
1.094.98 941.14
1.447.28
1.447.28 1,217,53
634.47
1,689.31
1.105.98
1.244.28 1,324.27 1,300.67
233.36
905.33
1,928.37
644.52
851.78
766.61
1,290.89
987.92
740.39
3,784.59
s
o
[Stage Direction]

Canadian Army Film Unit
Stories shot by Canadian Army Film Unit and released by newsreel distributors throughout Canada, the United States and South America. The following is a list of stories released during the past fiscal year.
April
Canadian Forces Moving up on Xanten. Allies Cross the Rhine.
Red Cross Clothing Issue.
Sgt. Weeks Cartoonist.
J.S.B. Shapiro Speaks of 8th Victory Loan.
[Stage Direction]
106,756.88
Supply-Film Board
May	*	
June	
July	
September	
November	
December	
January	
February	
March	
[Stage Direction]
April, May.
04-091
04-112
04-119
04-118
04-101
June.
04-129
July.
04-156
04-164
August.
04-178
04-087
The Queen Visits Our Wounded.
Canadian 1st Army Liberating Holland.
Holland Celebrates Peace-Canadian Liberators.
Canadian Troops in Holland.
Canadians Leave Holland.
S.S. Europa Captured.
Chinese 1st Army Meets Canadian 1st.
Canadians See Horse Racing-Holland.
Canadian Troops Arrive in Berlin.
Queen Wilhemina Returns to Holland.
. Canadian Army Wives.
CWACs in Holland.
Canucks in Amsterdam.
Beaver Yacht Club.
Monty's Plane Crashes.
. P.M. Arrives in England.
Canadian Troops Prepare for Victory Loan.
Canada's New Governor General at Home.
Vehicles for UNRRA.
. Clothing for UNRRA.
Gymkhana.
. Kurt Myer Trial.
CWAC Pipe Band Entertains.
. Canadian Engineers Restore German Railways.
. Canadian Padre Gets V.C.

[Stage Direction]
News stories are shot by National Film Board crews and stories are released through newsreel distributors throughout Canada, the United States, the U.K., and South America. The following is a list of stories released during the past fiscal year.
Soap and Cannef Beef for UNNRA.
Harrison Hot Springs Convalescent Home.
C.B.C. Short Wave Station.
Signing of Food Agreement.
Baby Clinic.
Premier King at World Conference.
V-E Day.
Signing of Protocol.
Electronics for Mutual Aid.
Railway Cars for Russia.
Canadian War Artists.
Alaskan Rescue Squad.
Scout Rally.
Princess Juliana Departs.
Regent of Iraq.
Dominion Provincial Conference on Reconstruction.
Spruce Budworm.
V-J Day.
Sea Cadets.
Pulp to Textiles.
35mm
B&W
Theatrical.
$ 173,529.!
t-
[Stage Direction]

Supply-Film Board

[Stage Direction]
Estimates 1946-47
National Film Board Productions Completed in Fiscal Year 1945-46 NOTE: 1) The costs on theatrical newsclips include charges for 111 release prints.
2) An asterisk * before the production number indicates that a French version has been made and included in the costs.
o\ * vi [DOT]	.. . -" ll	;-[DOT] ***v.*«***~*	" . 'cuvo . vioitm him uccu mauc auu muiuueu ui lue OTIS.
3 C=	W^tion Board-WIB Munitions & Supply-M&S, Wartime Prices and Trade Board-WPTB, National War Finance
committee- NW1 C, National Defence-ND, Veterans Affairs-DVA, Post Office Department-POD, National Health and Welfare-NH&W.
Sponsor	Prod. No	Titles	Length	Size	Colour	Distribution	Costs 1945-46September .. October	04-124 04-151 04-131 04-177 04-128 04-180 04-172 04-185 04-160 04-153	Western Oil. Decommissioning Corvettes. Flaked Fish for UNNRA. Reconversion in Canada. Wild Horse Round-Up. Premier Soong in Ottawa. Glider School. Japanese Balloons/ Salmon Fishing. Amputee Servicemen.	$ cts.November...	04-182 04-195 04-196 04-175 04-132	Mulberry Exhibit. Canada's First Ambassador to Greece. Chilean President Visits Ottawa. Montreal Air Conference. Legion of Merit Award to Adjutant-General.	December...	04-189 04-197 04-162 04-496 04-176	Canadair. Ceramics. Yellow Knife. Clothes for UNRRA. Aluminum.	January	04-210 04-205	Musk Ox. Canadian Citizens.	February	04-213 04-212	U.N.O. Dominion Provincial Conference.	04-201	Diamond Cutting. British Loan.	04-219	FRONT LINE REPORTS	[DOT]	Newsreels made up from edited material and screened on Industrial and Rural Circuits programs. Since these are made from CAFU material, the costs are included with CAFU. The following is a list of these, showing contents of each. This series has been discontinued.	Issue No. 9	Canadian Exhibition Item	16mm	B&W	Non-Theatrical.	Assault on the Reich	Submarine Hunt	«	a	l	Pacific Task Force	1 reel	"	"	«	
CJi
rfk.
[Stage Direction]
o
o
§
Supply-Film Board
Issue No.	
	
	
	
	
	
CANADA COMMUNIQUE	
These are issued twice monthly and are distributed through Auxiliary Services for the Fighting Forces overseas. The Communiques are made up for the most part from newsreel material shot in Canada by the National Film Board cameramen. Since these are made up of newsreel material, the costs are included with the newsreels. This series has been discontinued and is being replaced by Canadian Screen Magazine. Following is a list of Canada Communiques issued during the past fiscal year:	
Issue No. 17.	1 reel
	1 reel
	1 reel
Issue No. 18.	1 reel
	1 reel
	
Issue No. 19.	1 reel
	
	
CANADIAN SCREEN MAGAZINE	
Issue No.	1 reel
	1 reel
	1 reel
Issue No.	1 reel
	1 reel
	
	1 reel
	1 reel
	1 reel
Issue No.	1 reel
	1 reel
	1 reel
F.A.O		1 reel
04-200 Queen Elizabeth		1 reel
16mm
16mm
16mm
«
B&W	
<< tt It tt it B&W	
	tt
	tt
	tt
tt	tt
U	tt
tt	tt
tt	it
It	
B&W	
	
it	«(
tt	
it	tt
tt	tt
tt	tt
tt	tt
t,	U
u	tt
tt	it
tt	It
tt	It
tt	tt
*<
Supply-Film Board
(Mr. Cl ax ton.]
NATIONAL FILM BOARD Estimates 1946-47
National Film Board Productions Completed in Fiscal Year 1945-46
NOTE: 1) The costs on theatrical newsclips include charges for 111 release prints.
2)	An asterisk * before the production number indicates that a French version has been made and included in the costs.
3) Abbreviations: National Film Board-NFB, Wartime Information Board-WIB, Munitions & Supply-M&S, Wartime Prices and Trade Board-WPTB, National War Finance Committee-NWFC, National Defence-ND, Veterans' Affairs-DVA, Post Office Department-POD, National Health and Welfare-NH&W.
Sponsor
Prod. No.
Issue No. 4
Canadair___
Salmon Run. Amputations. Ceramics-
Titles
Length
Size
Colour
1 reel 1 reel 1 reel 1 reel
Distribution
Costs
$ cts.

[Stage Direction]
04-208 Issue No. 6
Issue No. 5
Issue No. 15
Operation Stork	
Aluminum	
Muskrat Trapping	
Western Oil	
CWAC Pipe Band in Paris	
Diamond Cutting	
Was replaced by "O Canada"

[Stage Direction]
The Armed Forces newsreel, ''Eyes Front", is made for the Department of National Defence by the National Film Board. It consists of original stories, regular edited material and material released through the courtesy of the U.S. Signal Corps from "Army Navy Screen Magazine." "Eyes Front" plays fortnightly or monthly on the regular entertainment circuits through camps of the Armed Forces in Canada.
Eyes Front	
Canadian Sailors Visit	
Norwegian Fishermen	
Ice Follies of 1945	
Target SNAFU	
Auxiliary Services in Action.
1 reel 1 reel 1 reel 1 reel 1 reel 1 reel
16mm
B&W
Armed Forces in Canada.
It	u
«	M
[Stage Direction]
The Japanese Soldier	
Looking for a Job	
Nazi Atrocities	
Vocational Training	
Weapon of War	
School and University Opportunities Snafu-"Three Brothers"	
[Stage Direction]
o
g
o
co
Supply-Film Board
63260-231J
ND (Army)
Issue No. 21
23
Awaiting Returns of Enterprise Benefit. Burma	
Dentally Fit	
Sing Song-Clementine	
Rehabilitation Clip-Soldier Returns.. Hill 700	
Money, Goods and Prices
[Stage Direction]
25	Waltzing Matilda	
Re-establishment Credit	
Fish Unlimited	
26	Rehabilitation of Muskrats	
Medical Treatment for Ex-Servicemen
27	Command Performance with Bob Hope
28	Snafu in "It's Murder She Says"...
Rehabilitation of Ex-Servicewomen..
Rackets
Special
Issue
31
Television (without regular "Eyes Front" Titles)
Honourable Discharge	
Snafue in "Hot Spot"	
Canada's Crerar	
[Stage Direction]
Labour
[Stage Direction]

Labour
[Stage Direction]
Labour
[Stage Direction]
WIB & NFB DVA NFB NWFC NFB WIP WIB ARMY BATM NWFC NWFC & WPTB RCAF
*3034-1
3026
*01-507
01-	517
02-	009 02-014
*02-026
02-	039 *03-007
03-	009 03-010
*03-011
03-	021 *04-718
04-	901
05-	016
06-	007 06-008 06-011
06-	512 *06-513
07-	005

[Stage Direction]
Trees That Reach the Sky	
Of Japanese Descent	
Salmon Run	
After Work	
Wings Over Canada	
L'Ecole Du Travail	
Labour Looks Ahead	
Back to Work	
Veterans in Industry	
Veterans in Industry Preface and Trailer	
Road to Recovery and Limbs to Order	
Home to the Land (Fr.)	
Road to Civvy Street	
New Limbs for Old	
Victory Loan Medley	
48 Hour Leave	
The Peace Builders	
Inflation Dangers	
The Business of Farming	
Exercising Eskimo	
Spotting Fall of Shot with Radar	
Post V-E Dangers of Inflation	
Inflation Dangers	
Hygiene for Health	
1	reel
1	reel
2	reels
1	reel
2	reels
2	reels
1	reel
2	reels
2	reels
i	reel
3	reels
2	reels
2	reels
7	reels
3	reels
li	reels
1	reel
1	reel
1	reel
00	reels
1	reel
1	reel
1	reel
16mm « u « tt	B&W it tt ft tt	Armed Forces in Canadatt U tt (( «(	ft It tt tt tt	tttf it	tt tt	ttIt It tt ft it	tt tt tt tt it	ttft 16mm	tf tf tt B&W Kodachrome B&W	
«		u
35 & 16mm 35mm		n
	it	tt
	a	tt
35 & 16mm 35mm	a	tt
	tt	tt
	tt	tt
	tt	it
35mm 35 & 16mm	a	*
	u	it
	u	u
	Kodachrome B&W	u
		it
16mm		
	tt	
	tt	
16mm	it	tt
	tt	
35mm	tt	
	it	tt
	it	a
16mm	Kodachrome	National Research Council and Armed Services...
5,363.57
1,721.35
696.21 1,803.92 5,835.65
928.21
3.751.95 18,414.64
2.791.96 5,608.24
195.60
20,286.96
3,093.51
405.19
303.34
1,219.44
378.37
247.57
12,899.27
8,467.42
19,969.38
18,377.25
9,285.70
[Stage Direction]

Kj
[Stage Direction]
o
Supply-Film Board
[Mr. Claxton.l
NATIONAL FILM BOARD Estimates 1946-47
National Film Board Productions Completed in Fiscal Year 1945-46
NOTE: 1) The costs on theatrical newsclips include charges for 111 release prints.
2)	An asterisk * before the production number indicates that a French version has been made and included in the costs.
3) Abbreviations: National Film Board-NFB, Wartime Information Board-WIB, Munitions & Supply-M&S, Wartime Prices and Trade Board-WPTB, National War Finance Committee-NWFC, National Defence-ND, Veterans' Affairs- DVA, Post Office Department-POD, National Health and Welfare-NH&W.
Sponsor	Prod. No.	Titles	Length	Size	ColourNFB	05-016	Three Blind Mice (B&W version)	1 reel	« 35mm	B&WNWS	07-012	B&WND (Army)	07-017	Goodbye Mr. Gyp	1 reel	16mm	B&W07-024	Foot Research	450'	16mm	B&WM&S	07-026	750'	B&WNFB	07-033	200'	B&WND (Army)	08-001	Psychological First Aid	1§ reels	16mm	B&WM&S & WIP NFB	08-002 08-005	Ships and Men	2 reels	16mm	B&W B&WNFB	08-101	2§ reels	B&WNFB	08-102	B&WNFB	08-103	1J reels 1 reel	B&WNFB	08-104	B&WNFB	08-105	B&WNFB	08-107	1§ reels	B&WNFB	08-108	B&WNFB	08-110	B&WNFB	08-302	1J reels 1471'	B&WNFB	08-509	B&WNFB	08-510	B&WNFB	08-511	B&WNFB	08-512	B&WNFB	08-514	1 reel	B&WNFB	08.513	B&WNFB	08-515	1017'	B&WNFB	08-516	1§ reels 750'	B&WNFB	08-517	B&WNFB	08-519	B&WNFB	08-521	800'	B&WNFB	08-522	1066'	B&WUNRRA....	08-609	UNRRA (Portuguese)	1471'	16mm	B&WNFB	08-611	967'	B&WNFB	08-612	960'	B&WNFB	08-613	B&WNFB	08-615	B&WNFB	08-616	B&WNFB	08-617	750'	B&WNFB	08-618	800'	B&WNFB	08-622	1066'	B&WNFB	08-801	Peoples of Canada (Danish.)	2404'	16mm	B&W
Distribution
National Research Council.
Occupied Germany^and Prisoner of^War Camps-
Costs
$ cts. 4,379.78
4,578 87 4,935.02 625.52 698.66
533.18
203.38
295.22
2.042.77
2.081.52
1.672.52 799.42 891.97
378.02 1,160.54 1,000.68
875.99
721.21
3,554.88
1.976.67 1,049.24
961.38 718.17
2,592.01
693.60
1,037.65
909.81
936.70
790.25
692.19
2.328.67 1,230.20
819.23
1.110.77
691.02 848.14 743.85
1,183.76
306.57
1,093.96
[Stage Direction]
o
o
52S
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Film Board
NFB		OS-802
NFB		09-001
T&C	09-002
NFB	09-008
NFB	09-011
NWFC	09-012
NWFC	09-013
NFB	09-016
NFB	09-017
NFB	09-108
WIB	09-109
NWFC	09-020
NFB &	
Que. Gov.	10-509
WIB	10-510
NFB	10-511
NFB	10-513
NFB	10-514
NFB	10-517
NFB	10-518
NFB	10-521
NFB	10-522
NFB	10-524
NH&W	11-005
NFB	12-003
NFB	12-008
P&NH	12-009
NFB	12-010
NFB	12-014
NFB	12-016
NFB	12-020
NFB	12-021
NFB	12-506
NFB	12-507
NFB	12-604
NFB	12-606
NFB	12-607
NFB	12-703
NFB	15-006
NFB	15-007
Labour		02-024
NFB		02-028
NFB		02-032
NFB		02-033
NFB		02-037
WPTB		02-038
NFB		02-042
NFB		02-043
Northwest by Air (Danish)	
Soil for Tomorrow	
Certified for Seed	
Windbreaks on the Prairies (revision)	
Early start (Boys & Girls Clubs)	
Want a Life (French)	
Five Steps to Better Farm Living (French)	
Let's All Sing Together No. 4	
Let's All Sing Together No. 5	
Let's All Sing Together No. 6	
Land for Men (Reestablishment on the Land)	
Kitchen Come True (Science on the Farm)	
Caisses Populaires	
Work and Wages (Economic Stabilization)	
River of Canada (French)	
Certified for Seed (French)	
Main Street Canada (French)	
Fundo in Chile (French)	
Montevideo Family (French)	
Station Biologique in Granby (French)	
Oblate Fathers Centenary Western Can. (French)___
Junior Chamber of Commerce Convention in Granby.
To the People	
*Life on the Western Marshes	
Trappers of the Sea	
Pro-Rec in British Columbia	
Newfoundland Sentinel of the Atlantic	
The Great Canadian Shield	
Libraries on Wheels	
Musical Overtures No. 7, No. 8	
Warble Fly (revision)	
River of Canada (Spanish)	
Montreal (Spanish)	
Trans Canada Express (Portuguese)	
River of Canada (Portuguese)	
Montreal (Portuguese)	
Ballot Boxes (French)	
Toronto Symphony No. 1	
Toronto Symphony No. 2

[Stage Direction]
Labour Management Discussion Trailer (French)...
"Land for Pioneers" Discussion	
Trailer	
National Union Labour Film Committee	
Valley of the Tennessee (Disc. Trl.)	
Now the Peace (Disc. Tr.)	
Story with Two Endings (Disc. Tr.)	
Now the Peace (Disc. Tr.)	
Food-Secret of the Peace (Disc. Tr.)	
4 reels 2 reels 2 reels 2 reels 1375' 550'
1 reel
837'
335'
2 reels 2 reels
2800'
1350'
2 reels 2 reels 1800'
2 reels 2 reels 1724'
1	reel 1724'
2	reels 700'
750'
720'
666'
430'
500' 1000' ea 400' ea 2 reels
2 reels 1 reel
1	reel
2	reels 2 reels 1 reel 1 reel 1 reel
525'
870'
348'
135'
54'
615'
246'
555'
222'
305'
525'
622'
16mm	B&W	
16mm	Kodachrome	
16mm	Kodachrome	Rural Circuits	16mm	Kodachrome	"16mm	B&W	"35mm	B&W	French Rural Circuits	16mm	B&W	a u16mm	B&W	u tt35mm	B&W	Rural Circuits	16mm	B&W	"16mm	B&W	"16mm	B&W	"16mm	B&W	Non-theatrical	35mm	B&W	"35mm	B&W	French Circuits	16mm	B&W	Non-theatrical	16mm	B&W	Non-theatrical	16mm	B&W	Non-theatrical	16mm	B&W	Non-theatrical	16mm	B&W	Non-theatrical	35&16mm	B&W	Non-theartical	16mm	B&W	Non-theatrical	16mm	B&W	Non-theatrical	35&16mm	B&W	Non-theatrical	35mm	B&W	Non-theatrical-Provincial Departments of Health16mm	Kodachrome	Non-theatrical	16mm	Kodachrome	Non-theatrical	16mm	B&W	Department Nat. Health & Welfare	16mm	Kodachrome	Rural Circuits & Film Libraries	16mm	Kodachrome	Non-theatrical	16mm	B&W	Rural Circuits & Film Libraries	35mm	16mm	B&W	Rural Circuits	16mm	Kodachorme	Non-theatrical	16mm	B&W	Non-theatrical	16mm	B&W	Non-theatrical	16mm	B&W	Non-theatrical	16mm	B&W	Non-theatrical	16mm	Kodachrome	Non-theatrical	16mm	B&W	Non-theatrical	16mm	B&W	Non-theatrical	16mm	B&W	Non-theatrical	35mm	B&W	Non-Theatrical & Trade Union Circuits	u	16mm	a	Trade Union Circuits	35mm	tt	"a	35mm	a	Non-Theatrical	a	35mm	a	Non-Theatrical	tt	16mm	a	Trade Union Circuits	16mm	tt	Non-Theatrical	16mm	a	Circuits	
455.37
7,580.13
438.35
1,367.28
3,671.26
711.68
112.34
96.88
1,197.73
2,395.19
14,882.25
11,707.54
971.00
10,259.41
114.27
280.49
3,110.87
706.37 697.23
17,269.33
1,053.04
2,108.24
510.79
799.54
531.30
85.33
2,816.10
2,084.17
2,432.90
27.01
78.59
33.87
143.91
928.46
186.37 153.90
2,302.37
3,912.49
4,384.67
9.44
123.24
116.52
2,346.11
1,176.56
1,580.41
120.12
3,215.58
Supply-Film Board
IMr. Claxton.]
NATIONAL FILM BOARD Estimates 1946-47
National Film Board Productions Completed in Fiscal Year 1945-46
NOTE: 1) The costs on theatrical newsclips include charges for 111 release prints.
2)	An asterisk * before the production number indicates that a French version has been made and included in the costs.
3) Abbreviations: National Film Board-NFB, Wartime Information Board-WIB, Munitions & Supply-M&S, Wartime Prices and Trade Board-WPTB, National War Finance Committee-NWFC, National Defence-ND, Veterans' Affairs- DVA, Post Office Department-POD, National Health and Welfare-NH&W.
Sponsor	Prod. No.	Titles	Length	Size	Colour	Distribution	Costs 1945-46NFB	02-044	425'	$ cts. 2,313.10NFB	02-046	360'	1,092.57NFB	02-047	455'	3,545.40WPTB	03-012	250'	1,572.76NH&W....	03-016	To The People (Title). .	20'	6.49NWFC	04-720	30'	470'	NWFC	04-724	36'	15'	16mm	NWFC	04-725	112'	1,474.66NWFC	04-726	93'	947.17NWFC....	04-727	48'	«	14.28WIB	04-801	75'	«	216.39WIB	04-802	146'	<<	1,341.99WIB .	04-803	138'	576.75WIB	04-804	124'	«	523.65WIB....	04-805	182'	868.96WIB	05-011	50'	197.81M&S	07-022	75'	B&W&	35.59
g
s
o
5$
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Film Board

Supply-Film Board
During this year, as hon. members will see from the list of films which I have just filed, there were thirty-eight original films produced in French, and many of these films were distributed also in English language versions. The list will show which films were in French and which were in English. But, in addition, there were a considerable number of Englishspeaking films which were produced in French as well. Thirty-eight films were produced in Portuguese, Spanish, German and Dutch of such titles as "People of Canada," "Northwest by Air," "Trappers of the Sea," "Wings over Canada," " Fighting Sea Fleas," "Art for Children," "Toronto Symphony," "UNRRA,"
" Montreal," " Great Lakes," " Music in the Wind." In addition, the board prouced during the year sixty newsreel stories which were made available to the commercial newsreels for showing in Canada, the United States, South America, the United Kingdom, Australia and many other countries, in as many as twenty different languages. Thirty-four stories about the armed forces overseas were edited for international newsreel releases. The film board produced1 forty news clips to be attached to commercial newsreel releases, and twenty-eight ten-minute newsreel films in several series, some for use by the armed forces in Canada and some for overseas use, as well as some for the industrial and rural circuits.
Of the work for other government departments it will be noted on the list I have filed that there were many subjects for the armed forces-exercises "Eskimo," "Lemming," "Polar Bear," as well as a film to be produced this year, " Musk Ox," " Spotting Fall of Shot," " Hygiene for Health," " Guests of Honour," " Foot Research," " Psychological First Aid," " Road to the Reich," " Headline Hunters." For rehabilitation information and veterans affairs: "Back to Work," "Veterans in Industry," "Veterans in Industry (preface and trailer)," " Road to Recovery," " Limbs to Order," " Road to Civvy Street," " New Limbs for Old," " Good-bye Mr. Gyp," " Land for Men," plus a number of trailers. In connection with war savings and finance, "Inflation Dangers," and some eight other films. Also, among subjects particularly related to agriculture, " Business of Farming," " Soil for Tomorrow," "Certified for Seed." Miscellaneous films: "Tire Research," "Victorian Order of Nurses," "Food in Europe," "Caisses Populaires," "Ships and Men." There were, as I said, thirty-four news clips on various subjects for other government departments, and eighteen complete newsreel issues of "Eyes Front" for the armed forces overseas.
Another function of the film board in addition to the production of films is to secure the
distribution of Canadian films in Canada and abroad. In Canada this distribution is effected through commercial theatres, one hundred rural circuits and from ninety-six film libraries from which community film groups draw films for their meetings. The "Canada Carries On" series is shown regularly each month in 400 theatres across Canada.
In addition, the film board has produced a very large number of still pictures and of these, altogether, 38,680 were distributed by the board during the year and 18,502 were distributed abroad, mainly through the Canadian information service. Another work undertaken is to assist in the design and layout of government publications, especially the publications of the wartime information board, the rehabilitation committee, the various government departments, and other agencies of the government. It has carried on a number of photographic displays which have been used by many government departments of Canada abroad, in the United States, the United Kingdom, Australia, Mexico and Brazil.
The film board is usually represented on government inter-departmental committees having to do. with information service, such as the rehabilitation committee and so on. It has taken an active part in seeing that in the field of visual representation Canada does not lag behind any country. Its films have been widely received, with increasing commendation, throughout Canada, and it is interesting to note how widely they have been appreciated in other countries. For instance, an officer of the film board was asked to go to Australia to establish an Australian film service; in New Zealand1 the film service is being set up along lines suggested: by the film commissioner; from. India, China and other countries representatives have come here to see how the work was carried on.
The board has acted at international conferences in Canada making displays of films illustrating Canada to the representatives of the foreign countries, and it has also acted for international agencies such as UNRRA, for which it has made a film, and other international organizations. In regard to distribution abroad, it has seen to the distribution of the series "World in Action" throughout a large number of commercial theatres in the United States, totalling as many as 5,000, in central and south America, where it has been shown in a total of hundreds of theatres, as well as in other countries.
The film board has offices abroad which act as distributing centres, and it has furnished to the Canadian information service, in cooperation with it, films on Canada for our
Supply-Film Board
[Stage Direction]
diplomatic representatives abroad so that they can show people in countries to which they are accredited pictures about Canada.
A number of libraries have been established in Canada. The hon. member for Lethbridge asked a question about the total number of films which are in the library at Ottawa. There are 1,700, and in ninety-six film libraries across Canada there is a total of 9,000 prints of many different subjects. During the year, 3,975 prints of the 310 films I mentioned were distributed to these libraries, and the number of libraries increased during the year from forty-four to ninety-six. It is estimated that in Canada, through the use of these film libraries, something like 200,000 people .may see films each month, in addition to the very much larger numbers who see the films shown on the commercial screen.
Let me say, in conclusion, a word about the need of films. In almost every country, as hon. members will appreciate, there are government film units of one type or another, and governments are spending increasing sums in the interest of public information and education at home and abroad. In addition to the reasons which justify such action on the part of other countries, I think there are one or two which apply with particular reference to Canada. In the first place, Canada is adjacent to the United States, which at Hollywood produces the great bulk of films for entertainment. The magnitude of operations there, involving an expenditure of as much as $4,000,0000 on a single picture, makes it difficult for a small country like Canada to produce films for entertainment. It is probably common knowledge that this has not been successfully done in this country, and it is calculated that each week some 4,000,000 Canadians go to moving-picture houses. Each week more than 4,000,000 Canadians see from one to four American film subjects.
I do not say this by way of criticism but merely to state a fact. In the circumstances, it seems to be of vital importance that we should do what we can to give Canadians at least a chance to see films sometimes about their own country. To assist in this, the film board has played an important part in developing among Canadians an increasing knowledge of Canada, a better understanding of the points of view of Canadians in different parts of the country, and faith in the future of Canada which we believe will strengthen our determination to make our great country still greater and stronger.
The hon. member for Lethbridge asked a number of questions which I should like now to answer. In the first place, he asked the number of films and I have given that information. 
He asked about lecturers using films of the national film board. The board does not employ any lecturers, but in the course of exhibiting to rural and industrial circuits, the exhibitor sometimes gives a talk in accordance with prepared material, kits as they are called, introducing the film. It may be that other talks by others are given when the films are shown.
Hon. members of all parties have at one time or another seen films shown at meetings which they have addressed, and over these the board has no control. The hon. member wished to know how many films have to do with biological subjects and how many with geological or other scientific subjects. In its preview library, the board has sixteen dealing with biological and seventeen dealing with geological or other scientific subjects. The most recent biological film was one entitled "Vegetable Insects", dealing with the life cycle of garden pests which destroy vegetable crops, and recommending methods for their eradication.
The hon. member asked how many of the films have to do with the subject of evolution and the answer is none. He wishes to know whether an,y of the national film board films are based upon the Bible and, if so, how many. The answer is that the film board does not produce films having to do with religious subjects.
I hope I have answered the hon. gentleman's questions. If there any that I have not covered sufficiently I shall be glad to answer any questions with reference to them. I have notes on all the subjects of films dealing with biological and similar matters, giving a description of their contents, and these I shall be glad to show the hon. member at any time.
John Ritchie MacNicol: When I asked the minister a few moments ago a question about films illustrating the achievements of industry I had in mind that perhaps the estimates did not show what industrial results might come from the showing of films. I am sure that some industrial results have been achieved through the showing of films that I have seen. In that respect, I have been wondering whether the department has a line of films with regard to the large water powers of Canada: for instance, Grand falls and its watershed in New Brunswick; Shawinigan Falls plant in Quebec; the Shipshaw Power Plant, Beau-hamois and Gatineau in Quebec; High falls in Ontario, west of Ottawa; Chats falls on the Ottawa river-when I say "falls" I mean power plants-the power plants on the Otonabee and Trent rivers in Ontario; the power plant operated by the city of Orillia;

Supply-Film Board
the Niagara falls power plants; the Iroquois falls power plants in northern Ontario; the Spanish river power plants; Sault Ste. Marie power plants on, the St. Mary river; the Nipigon river power plants in Ontario and the Winnipeg river power plants in Manitoba, and perhaps the Bow river plants in Alberta. Unfortunately there are none that I know of of any consequence in Saskatchewan. I hope the day is not far distant when Saskatchewan too will have cheap hydro power for development which must take place on the Saskatchewan river. Then there are the Powell river and Columbia river plants in British Columbia. My thought is that pictures showing the development of industry, either large or small, that have been achieved in Canada so far by these power plants which I have named would not only be intensely interesting but induce investors who wanted to come to Canada from other countries-and we hope many of them will come-to build plants in Canada. Perhaps someone in some of the United States, British or European cities, on seeing films covering something like that which I have described, would come to Canada to open up plants of some kind; I hope so.
I am not going to deal with any of the financial aspects to-night so far as the film board is concerned, because others are more capable of doing so than I am. I am interested in only one thing, namely, what the film board can do to induce the erection of industrial plants and through that provide more jobs for Canadians. I am convinced that if the film board can do one thing it ought to be able to do that. Recently we had a picture dealing with "Across Canada". It was not along the lines of what I have just mentioned, but I for one enjoyed it very much. It was shown in this building. I would hope that the board is equipped to send such films throughout the country. We have it, and we might as well make the best use of it we can with a view to developing industry and giving jobs. Others may have other ideas, but my life has been associated with organizing business to give jobs. Whatever the film board can do along that line I, for one, shall be pleased with it.


Major James William Coldwell: Before the minister
answers the hon. member may I be permitted to ask a question and thereby save time? What films are being developed for use in schools? It seems to me that films for visual education are of the utmost importance to the country at this time. I have had some experience in teaching, and I have found that it was much easier to teach some things through the eye than through the spoken
word. I know that in some of the scientific subjects we get a film like "The Life History of a Frog". You can get the whole story of the development of the frog from the egg right through to the adult creature. It gives a good picture of a good many other things which might otherwise be slightly difficult to understand. What kind of library is being built up by the national film board for use in our schools, not only in science but in history, and in the teaching of even some phases of literature? The film is something that should be used more extensively than it has been.


Brooke Claxton: I shall be very glad to try to answer both hon. gentlemen. The hon. member for Davenport asked about what films we have showing the development of water powers in Canada. There is a very fine film called "Power from Shipshaw" which shows the development and use of that great undertaking on the Sagqpnay river.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That was shown in the buildings; it is an excellent film.


Brooke Claxton: Another is "Power
Valley," the St. Maurice valley which shows the development on the Shawinigan. Other power developments occur in other films, but in addition there are a great number of films which have a specific industrial purpose which were developed during the war in connection with the Department of Labour and which were shown on the industrial circuits. Then there are films such as "Ships and Men", dealing with the shipbuild-industry in Canada; "Western Oil", dealing with oil developments. There are others dealing with the great Canadian shield, mining. There is another one called "Northwest by Air", dealing with air transportation in' the north. There is another one dealing with agriculture, "Certified Seed." These were produced during the current year. Among the 1,700 titles I mentioned there are dozens, if not hundreds, which relate specifically to the question asked by the hon. member for Davenport.
With regard to the films which are useful in connection with education, the film board has a considerable number of subjects of which I might mention those produced during this year which were prepared especially for school use. They are as follows: "Wealth of the Foothills"; "Early Start", "Life on the Western Marches", "Trappers of the Sea"; "Newfoundland, Sentinel of the Atlantic", and "Ballot Boxes". "Ballot Boxes" was
Supply-Film Board

a film which deals with education in citizenship. In that connection, a series is being worked out in consultation with the Canada-Newfoundiand educational association, which has a committee which is advising on educational films. In that committee there are representatives of various provinces, as well as of the various educational organizations, so that work is being done to prepare films but only in accordance with and to meet needs expressed by those responsible primarily for education in Canada. The board acts as a producing agency, but does not force anything on anyone. It produces subjects which meet a need which has been expressed by others in the educational field.


Major James William Coldwell: Before the item carries, are there any items now to be dealt with other than this in the minister's department? I was going to take this opportunity of asking the minister if he will tell the committee under what circumstances or why Doctor David Shugar has been dismissed from the public service in view of the fact that there is no charge against him now and counsel for the government was unable to substantiate any charge in a court? It seems to me that a man is innocent until he is proven guilty. I understand that he was engaged from February to November and has been dismissed to take effect at the beginning of August. In the meantime he has been given leave. I should like to know why this has been done by the minister's department.


Brooke Claxton: Though it does not fall under either the national film board or the Canadian information service, I shall be glad to answer the hon. member at once. It was in view of the report of the royal commission as tabled in this house last week. I think hon. members will notice that in respect of Doctor Shugar there is a considerable difference between the interim report and the report as tabled. It was in view of the report that the action was taken.


The Acting CHAIRMAN (Mr. Golding):: Shall the item carry?


Edmund Davie Fulton: No.


Major James William Coldwell: No.
Item stands.
Progress reported.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.

Monday, July 22, 1946.