1946-08-26

MOUNTED POLICE-INSPECTOR JOHN LEOPOLD

Mr. BENTLEY:: 4.	How long has Inspector John Leopold been a member of the R.C.M.P.?
2.	Was he at one time known as Jack Essel-wein, and (a) was he instructed, as part of his duties, to join an organization or party; (b) if so, what party or organization; (c) during what period or periods of time was he so occupied; (d) was he on the payroll of the R.C.M.P. during such periods?
3.	Did his duties during that period include the investigation of organizations other than the communist party of Canada and, if so, what organizations, and on whose instructions were such investigations carried on?
4.	Did his duties involve travel and investigations outside Canada?
5.	Do his present duties include any portion of those assigned to him during the period he was a member of the communist party of Canada?
Mr. ST. LAURENT:
1.	Since September 26, 1918.
2.	Yes; (a) Yes; (b) Communist party and subsidiary organizations; (c) 1921 to 1928; (d) Yes.
3.	Communist party and subsidiary bodies only.
4.	No.
5.	Yes.



MOUNTED POLICE-INVESTIGATIONS IN TRADE UNIONS AND OTHER ORGANIZATIONS

Mr. BENTLEY:: 1.	How many members of the R.C.M.P. are currently employed on investigation in trade unions and other organizations, and what percentage is this of the total active force?
2.	How does the number now employed on this type of work compare with the number employed on comparable work in 1939?
3.	Are special payments in addition to their regular salaries made to those engaged in this type of work?
4.	What is the total appropriation devoted to this work?
5.	Who is the responsible officer in charge, and to whom does he report?
Mr. ST. LAURENT:
1.	None in trade unions and similar organizations.
2,	3, 4 and 5. Answered by No. 1.



EVAPORATED MILK

Mr. DANIEL:: 1.	What is the percentage of the average 1941-42 purchases of evaporated milk distributed in each of the following areas of Canada: (a)
northern Ontario and northern Quebec; (b) southern Ontario and southern Quebec; (e) maritime provinces; (d) Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia?
2.	In what areas of above is evaporated milk sold without ration coupons?


Mr. MAYHEW:: 1.	(a) Minimum quota 100 per cent plus special quotas authorized for lumbering and mining operations equal to approximately an additional 30 per cent, (b) No quota set. Distributed on ration coupons for infant feeding and medical cases only, (c) 125 per cent, (d) 125 per cent.
2.	In all areas except southern Ontario and southern Quebec.



WAR ASSETS-MOTOR VEHICLES

Mr. FRASER:: How many motorcycles declared surplus -by the Department of National Defence, army, navy and air, respectively, are still in the hands of War Assets Corporation?


Mr. FRASER:: 1.	How many motorcycles have been declared surplus by the Department of National Defence (army) ?
2.	What are the departmental numbers of the surplus declaration forms in each case?
3.	On what dates were declarations of surplus motorcycles made?
4.	How many of these motorcycles have been disposed of through War Assets Corporation?
5.	How many oi these motorcycles have been disposed of by sale to ex-service men, in pursuance with the policy which grants them priority of purchase?
6.	In what province or provinces are the remainder of these motorcycles now located?


Mr. FRASER:: 1.	How many motorcycles have been declared surplus of the Department of National Defence for Air?
2.	What are the departmental numbers of the surplus declaration forms in each case?
3.	On what dates were declarations of surplus motorcycles made?
4.	How many of these motorcycles have been disposed of through War Assets Corporation?
5.	How many of these motorcycles have been disposed of by sale to ex-service men, in pursuance with the policy which grants them priority of purchase?
6.	In what province or provinces are the remainder of these motorcycles now located?


Mr. FRASER:: 1.	How many motorcycles have been declared surplus by the Department of Naval Affairs?
2.	What are the departmental numbers of the surplus declaration forms in each case?
3.	On what dates were declarations of surplus motorcycles made?
4.	How many of these motorcycles have been disposed of through War Assets Corporation?
Questions

5.	How many of these motorcycles have been disposed of by sale to ex-service men, in pursuance with the policy which grants them priority of purchase?
6.	In what province or provinces are the remainder of these motorcycles now located?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: How many motor vehicles declared surplus by the Department of National Defence, navy, army, and air respectively, are still in the hands of War Assets Corporation?


Mr. FRASER:: 1.	How many passenger motor vehicles have been declared surplus by the Department of National Defence for Air?
2.	What are the departmental numbers of the surplus declaration forms in each case?
3.	On what dates were declarations of surplus motor passenger vehicles made?
4.	How many of these vehicles have been disposed of through War Assets Corporation?
5.	How many of these vehicles have been disposed of by sale to ex-service men, in pursuance of the policy which grants them priority of purchase?
6.	In what province or provinces are the remainder of these surplus vehicles located?


Mr. FRASER:: 1.	How many passenger motor vehicles have been declared surplus by the Department of National Defence (army)?
2.	What are the departmental numbers of the surplus declaration forms in each case?
3.	On what dates were declarations of surplus
motor passenger vehicles made?	.
4.	How many of these vehicles have been disposed of through War Assets Corporation?
5.	How many of these vehicles have been disposed of by sale to ex-service men, in pursuance of the policy which grants them priority of purchase?
6.	In what province or provinces are the remainder of these surplus vehicles located?


Mr. FRASER:: 1.	How many passenger motor vehicles have been declared surplus by the Department of Naval Affairs?
2.	What are the departmental numbers of the surplus declaration forms in each case?
3.	On what dates were declarations of surplus motor passenger vehicles made?
4.	How many of these vehicles have been disposed of through War Assets Corporation?
5.	How many of these vehicles have been disposed of by sale to ex-service men, in pursuance of the policy which grants them priority of purchase ?
6.	In what province or provinces are the remainder of these surplus vehicles located?


Mr. McILRAITH:: These questions, eight in number, in the name of the hon. member for Peterborough West, were asked previously in the House of Commons and I believe referred to the war expenditures and economies committee. They were answered fully in that committee, and the answers will be found in the minutes of the proceedings and evidence Nos. 34 and 35 of the committee.
[Mr. Fraser.l



JAPANESE-REPATRIATION  MENTAL HOSPITAL PATIENTS

Mr. MacINNIS:: 1.	How many persons of Japanese origin were patients in the mental hospital in British Columbia as at January 31, 1946?
2.	How many of those have asked for repatriation to Japan?


Mr. MITCHELL:: 1.	58.
2.	26.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. DANIEL:: 1.	Have arrangements been made by the government to bring electrical engineers from the United Kingdom to Canada to serve with the Royal Canadian Navy, or in any capacity with the Department of National Defence for Naval Affairs?
2.	If so, how many engineers are being brought to Canada?
3.	What are their names, and what are the special qualifications of each such person?
4.	What salary is each such person to be paid?
5.	Have any other commitments been made to them or any other inducements held out to them to get them to come to Canada?
6.	If so, what commitments Or inducements?
7.	What, in detail, are the duties which each such person is to perform?
8.	Prior to such arrangements being made, was any attempt made to recruit qualified Canadian engineers for such positions?
9.	If so, what method of recruitment was adopted and what inducements by way of salary, or otherwise were held out?
10.	Why were Canadian engineers not secured for such positions?
11.	Was consideration given to sending Canadian engineers to the United Kingdom to secure any additional training required?
12.	If not, why not?


Mr. MACDONALD (Halifax):: Return
tabled.


DESERTERS WITH OVERSEAS SERVICE
Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	How many deserters among those who served for some time at the front are now incarcerated (a) in prisons or detention camps overseas; (b) in federal prisons in Canada?
2.	Will executive clemency be extended to them immediately and a pardon given, and will they be brought home by the government?
3.	Will the same clemency be extended at once to those overseas who risked their lives, as volunteers, as has been given to desertei's and draft, evaders within Canada?

Labour Conditions



SOLDIER SETTLEMENT-PRINCIPAL AND INTEREST PAYMENTS, ETC.

Mr. FAIR:: II. During each of the years 1930 to 1944, both years inclusive, what was the amount of (a) principal (annual payments); (b) interest due the Soldier Settlement Board by settlers holding contracts?
2.	During the same period, what amount was paid each year by such settlers?
3.	What was the cost of administration of the Soldier Settlement Board for each of the above years?
4.	During each of the above years how many settlers (a) signed quit claim deeds; (b) were served with thirty day notices to vacate their farms?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Mr. KNOWLES:: For a copy of the record of proceedings of the court of inquiry convened on or about April 22, 1943, to investigate the claim of Mr. Nick Charena, against the Department of National Eefenee, with respect to an injury received while working at a Royal Canadian Army Service Corps Depot.


Mr. LAPOINTE:: The hon. member has agreed to drop this motion.


Stanley Howard Knowles: On the basis of the department looking into the case.
Motion dropped.



BELLEVILLE HARBOUR ADMINISTRATION-FINANCIAL STATEMENTS

Mr. STOKES:: For a copy of the financial statements of the Belleville (Ontario) harbour commission for the years of 1941, 1942, 1943, .1944 and 1945?



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. ANGUS MacINNIS (Vancouver East):: I asked the Minister of Labour on Saturday if the controller had made any effort to get-in touch with the parties to the steel dispute, and I should like to repeat that question now. I should also like to ask the minister if he will give consideration to having the deputy minister of his department act as special commissioner, since there is no other commissioner conciliating in the dispute at the moment.


Hon. HUMPHREY MITCHELL (Minister of Labour):: On Saturday I gave an open invitation to both sides, combined with the 63260-337
amendment to the order, at least to get in touch with my department or myself in an effort to bring about some degree of conciliation in this dispute. I have read some of the speeches that have been made over the weekend and I am frank to admit, Mr. Speaker, I did not get much encouragement from them. I am prepared to lend every effort in settling this dispute if there is any degree of sympathetic consideration by either side.
As to my hon. friend's other point about the deputy minister of labour, we have had two or three commissioners in this dispute already. I think it can fairly be said that I run a reasonably large organization which faces difficulties and complications, and the steel dispute is not the only dispute that is in progress at the moment. I want to tell my hon. friend frankly that I cannot have my senior officials running all over Canada trying to settle industrial disputes, because I have an organization stretching from the Atlantic to the Pacific that has been set up to deal with just such matters. If my hon. friend has any contact with either side to the dispute I should be very glad if he would call them up and tell them, "For goodness' sake quit making silly speeches," such as I read in the press over the week-end. This dispute, like the rain, must come to an end some time. It always stops raining. But you cannot settle any dispute unless there is a willingness to sit down and settle it.


Angus MacInnis: I thank the minister. I appreciate that I was asking a great deal of him to ask that his deputy go in there. But I was paying a compliment to his deputy in making that request because I believe he would be acceptable, perhaps more acceptable than anyone else, to the employees there.


Humphrey Mitchell: Much as I should like to do it, I must say that sometimes I wonder how physically I have stood up for the last five years, and I say that without trying to be facetious at all. I say it seriously, and I say the same thing of my senior officials too. I have not had a holiday since the war broke out; my deputy has not had a holiday since he has been with me, and that goes for many of the senior officials in my department. To ask us to run all over the country after grownup men who cannot conduct themselves like grown-up men is asking too much. After all is said and done, the trains are still running, and the aeroplanes, and if these people were anxious to settle disputes instead of trying to make martyrs of themselves or names for themselves, a great deal more could be accomplished. I passed through a similar diffi-

Labour Conditions

cult period after the last war. These men who think they are men of destiny are just ships that pass in the night. I have seen them pass in the night.


Mr. COLDWELL:: I was just thinking of the minister's mixed metaphors.


Humphrey Mitchell: Some fellows think they are men of destiny, but they take themselves too seriously. If any one of us here died to-day the flag would fly at half-mast until the funeral was over and we would soon be forgotten. So do not let us take ourselves too seriously.


Stanley Howard Knowles: In view of the seriousness of the' situation will the minister ask the controller at Hamilton to see to it that the presence of the police is not used by the company as a basis for further provocative action?


Humphrey Mitchell: That has nothing whatever to do with the company. Responsibility for the administration of law and order does not rest on any organization, whether it be the employers or the employees. The maintenance of law and order is the responsibility, first of all, of the chief magistrate of the city-and let me say this, that I have never known the chief magistrate to be defeated on the basis of maintaining law and order. If you have not the courage to carry out the obligations of an office, you should not run for that office. The responsibility, after the chief magistrate, is the responsibility of the attorney general of the province, and next, the attorney general of Canada. The chain of responsibility is complete. For my hon. friend to say that the company should not use the police is to overlook that the maintenance of law and order is the responsibility of those charged with it.


Stanley Howard Knowles: What about the violation of the wage control order by the company in giving triple pay?



PRIORITIES ON DISTRIBUTION OF STEED

[Stage Direction]
PRODUCTS	'
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. 0. PROBE (Regina City): Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply or the Acting Minister of Finance whether there is any arrangement by which the steel that is available in unprocessed form, such as sheets and plates, is being rationed equitably across this country by any organization of the government? I have received a number of telegrams on that and I should like to know whether equitable rationing is taking place.
[Mr. Mitchell.)
Right Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Reconstruction and Supply):: What little
steel there is available for distribution is subject to priority allocation by the steel controller, and anything that is left after all priorities are satisfied I suppose is being marketed through the usual channels. But there is very little primary steel going on the market to-day.


Mr. PROBE:: There is a definite allotment as between various regions?


Mr. SPEAKER:: Order. The hon. member has put his question and received his answer.


John Oliver Probe: Mr. Speaker, may I not ask a supplementary question? It was a fair question. I do not want to be shut off every time I get up. You take an obvious delight in doing it.


James Horace King: I do not think that the hon. member or any hon. member has been shut off by the Speaker. The rule is very clear. The question should be brief and to the point. Moreover I should say to the hon. member that I will not permit the question period to start a debate on steel or labour conditions. The hon. member will have an opportunity to ask any question of the minister when his estimates are being considered in committee of supply.


John Oliver Probe: I hasten to assure you, Mr. Speaker, that I did not wish to have a debate or altercation at all. I was simply asking for information.



SALES OF LIQUOR


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. J. A. MacKINNON (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker,
recently I tabled an answer to a question by the hon. member for Mackenzie, (Mr. Nicholson) with reference to the per capita sales of liquor by provinces for the last fiscal year. The hon. member asked why Prince Edward Island had not been included. I was fairly sure of the answer, but I wanted to be certain. There is no public sale of liquor in Prince Edward Island. Liquor is sold there, I think I should say allegedly, for medicinal purposes only upon presentation of a doctor's certificate. There being no liquor control board in the island as there is in the other provinces, we do not have comparable statistics. The public accounts for Prince Edward Island do not show any figures for retail sales; therefore, we are unable to compare them with the figures of other provinces.

Emergency Powers



PAYMENT OF PARTICIPATION CERTIFICATES

[Stage Direction]
for 1943
On the orders of the day:
James Angus MacKinnon: May I also take this opportunity of giving information to some hon. members who are particularly interested in the matter of wheat participation certificates for 1943. These payments are actually going out, and the operation will be hurried through to completion. The price of No. 1 Northern is 12-146 cents per bushel. This price covers about eighty per cent of all the other grades.



IMPORTS FROM WEST INDIES-CONCESSIONS TO CANADIAN CROWERS AND PROCESSORS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. R. W. MAYHEW (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance):: On Saturday last the hon. member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker) asked the following question :
In view of the increased price of sugar, which is imported from the West Indies, will the government, with a view to increasing production in 1947, consider granting similar concessions to growers and processors in Canada as has been ordered in the United States?
The answer is: The average laid down cost of West Indies sugar in Canada in Canadian funds is not higher than the sugar administrator's selling price to Canadian refineries. The government announced last spring a special payment of 60J cents per hundred pounds of refined beet sugar produced from the 1946 crop. Policy with respect to the 1947 crop of beet sugar will be announced in due course in the light of the then existing circumstances.



HOUSING

[Stage Direction]
CENTRAL HOUSING AND MORTGAGE CORPORATION- RENTS IN EDMONTON On the orders of the day:
Clarence Decatur Howe: On Saturday last the hon. member for Eglinton (Mr. Fleming) asked a question with reference to rentals in the Jesuit college apartments at Edmonton. I am informed that the apartments in question are being operated under the home conversion plan and that the present rentals were fixed before extensive alterations had been effected. Now that the work has been completed, the home conversion administration has applied to the wartime prices and trade board to have rentals fixed. A hearing will be held, and 63260-337J
tenants whose rents were fixed before the conversion took place will have the opportunity of making representations before new rentals are fixed.



EXCESS PROFITS TAX ACT


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. J. McCANN (Minister of National Revenue) moved the second reading of and concurrence in amendments made by the senate to bill No. 370, to amend the Excess Profits Tax Act, 1940.
Mr. J. M. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Ontario):: I just received a copy'of the senate amendments. I wish the minister would explain the effect of these amendments, because I have not been able to get a copy of the original bill. I am not sure what the amendments amount to.


Robert Wellington Mayhew: I must admit that I am not in a position to give the necessary information. The minister is not here to-day, and I do not think the parliamentary assistant should be required to make the explanation. I wonder whether this motion could be allowed to stand until the minister returns.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: If I could get the original bill I might be able to find out what it is all about. I do not think we should be asked to pass these amendments without knowing what they mean.


Mr. BRADETTE:: Votes and Proceedings gives the explanations.
Motion stands.



EMERGENCY POWERS


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Acting Prime Minister) moved the second reading of bill No. 253, to amend the National Emergency Transitional Powers Act, 1945.
He said: On July 5 of this year the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) in a statement to the house indicated that a committee of officers of the Department of Justice and other departments had under close and continuous scrutiny the orders in council which derive their authority from the War Measures Act and of the National Emergency Transitional Powers Act, 1945. The purpose of this scrutiny is to reduce to a minimum the num-
Emergency Powers
[Stage Direction]
ber of such orders in actual operation. Each of these orders has been carefully considered with the departments more directly concerned. Appropriate action has been recommended to secure the elimination of all orders which are no longer essential to ensure an orderly transition from war to peace.
In his statement the Prime Minister divided existing orders into several categories, and gave the number of each. These figures represent the situation which obtained at the time they were compiled, as the committee continued its analysis and action was taken on its recommendation. The volume of orders in council appearing in each classification naturally varies. On July 5 the Prime Minister referred to a total of 7,103 orders under emergency powers. Since that time the committee has reviewed twelve more orders in council, while a further seventy-two orders in council have been passed under the National Emergency Transitional Powers Act and tabled in the house, of which twenty-six merely revoke other orders in council, but those have not yet been reviewed and included in the tabulation. Accordingly the total number of orders in council passed pursuant to the emergency powers to August 15 was 7,187. There was one passed on Saturday which was tabled here. It is of course difficult to have these tabulations right up to the minute. Of this number 4,207 have been revoked, have expired or are spent. This means that 102 have ceased to have effect since July 5. Some twenty-six orders are in process of being revoked immediately. Some 616 are to be allowed to expire with the expiry of the National Emergency Transitional Powers Act, 1946. It is considered that one hundred orders can be reenacted under the authority of existing statutes not of an emergency character. To this end departmental officials are at present taking the necessary action.
The outstanding treasury board minutes under the emergency powers authorizing war duty supplements for government employees now number 1,531. These have been considered and placed in three categories: those granted for special duties which have now come to an end, and the war duties supplements will also come to an end. Then there are those in respect to which special duties for which the supplement was originally granted will continue indefinitely. In this case the civil service commission is being asked to examine each individual case and make appropriate recommendations as to what change in classification the civil servant concerned should receive.
Then there are supplements about which some doubt existed as to whether the special

duties involved can be definitely or finally classified as apt to continue indefinitely. Each one of these is receiving separate consideration. All these will be dealt with, and I may say at once with respect to this whole matter that some five or six weeks ago instructions were sent to each department to examine every one of the orders and to have ready for consideration not later than the end of this year bills for- legislation wherever the government might feel it would be proper to recommend legislation to parliament to take the place of the emergency power.
The remaining orders in council are those which the Prime Minister indicated as constituting the real body of the government's existing emergency power. They number 709. Of this number approximately 225 have been in substance placed before the house during the present session in the form of draft legislation relating to such subjects as war crimes, unemployment insurance, reinstatement in civil employment of discharged members of the forces, control of atomic energy, control of explosives, air and navy cadets, control of narcotics, compensation to veteran airmen, and then the large body of orders in council which were dealt with by the veterans affairs committee and which provided for the demobilization and rehabilitation of members of the armed forces. The remaining 484 orders in council are the measures which may continue to be classed as emergency powers at the close of this session. This total includes orders in council which merely amend other orders appearing in the group. The subject matter was outlined in general terms to the house by the Prime Minister in his statement of July 5. As he then indicated, while world conditions remain critical it is not possible to state for what periods of time each of the powers conferred by this group of orders in council may be required. In some cases statutory authority may have to be sought at the next session.
As I have indicated to the house, these orders in council are under constant review and will be dispensed with at the earliest opportunity compatible with the national welfare. I do not know whether the house would wish to have tabled the classifications that have been made. There are quite lengthy lists of the numbers of the orders, their date, and a sort of summary statement of what they deal with. First, there is the list of the twenty-six .of which the repeal is being arranged immediately or is in process of taking place. Then- there is a list of 225 which it is felt can be disposed of en bloc as having been provided for by legislation enacted by parliament at this session. Then there is a list of 100 which

Emergency Powers
the interdepartmental committee, presided, over by the Solicitor General, are recommending to be reenacted under other powers existing in general statute to the end sought. They are regulations which can be continued under powers that existed prior to the coming into operation of the War Measures Act, and the recomimendation. there is that they be taken out of that category and each placed under the general statute to which it properly appertains. Then there are 268 of another category. That appears to be a large number, but there are very many of them-which are just amendments of other orders and with respect to which there will have to be a recommendation by the government to parliament at the next session to enact legislation. They are the orders relating to the labour code; the wartime prices and trade board; rent control; the control exercised over cereals or other food products with respect to which the government of Canada has entered into contracts with other governments. They exist by virtue of the powers resulting either from the War Measures Act or from the National Emergency Transitional Powers Act, but they will be required beyond the period when the National Emergency Transitional Powers Act will normally expire; and it is with respect to those that, the Prime Minister made the statement, which I understood at the time met with the pretty general approval of the house, that the government would ask to have the term of fifteen days after the opening of the next session extended to sixty days so that they could be dealt with by parliament at the opening of the next session instead of having to be dealt with at this session.
If I have the permission of the house I will table, without asking to have it included in Hansard, two copies of these lists, so that any hon. member who may wish to consult them will have an opportunity of doing so. Without going into the merits of emergency powers or anything of a controversial nature, I will submit without further argument that it would be in the interests of dispatch to have the amendment provided for by this bill, extending from fifteen to sixty days the duration of emergency powers after parliament meets at its next session, passed at this time so that it will not be necessary to have additional legislation to deal with these matters at this session.
There is this other consideration. At this time, if we were not to have this extension, we would have to provide for all possible contingencies and would have to ask parliament. to adopt more legislation than is apt to be required at the time parliament meets again I wish to remind hon. members that
the Prime Minister stated positively that it was the intention of the government at that time, and it still is, to have parliament meet towards the end of January, 1947, for the next session. We are conscious of the fact that hon. members made that quasi-undertaking a condition of the position they took when the Prime Minister announced in July that there would be this request to extend the duration of emergency powers until sixty days after the next session opens. I would therefore hope that at this time it will be the pleasure of the house to adopt this amendment and leave us under the existing impression that we have to do our best to get rid of this wartime legislation just as quickly as it is compatible with orderly reconversion to do so.
Mr. JOHN BRACKEN (Leader of the Opposition):: I rise on this occasion not to comment on the administration of the National Emergency Transitional Powers Act., but rather to state our position with respect to the bill now before us. As hon. members know, a year ago when this measure was brought in here we objected to it very strongly. We are still as much opposed to it as we were then; and if this measure were a measure to extend the duration of this act we would oppose it as strongly now as we did then. As the minister has indicated, if the house should meet in the middle of March next year this measure under the existing statute would terminate at the end of March. Under the new bill it would terminate at the end of March if the house met in January. The measure gives the governor in council power to do by order in council what ordinarily would be done by this parliament. That is the reason we objected to it. There was some intimation when the question was raised in June or July of this year that if there was an undertaking that the house would meet in January rather than in March there would not be strong objection taken to the measure. The reason for that was this. If we meet in January and the act continues in force until sixty days after the house meets, the act will be no longer in force than if the house met in the middle of March with the act continued in force for fifteen days as now provided Under these circumstances we did not object and are not now objecting to the bill.
But when we reach committee stage I am going to offer an amendment, which I think the government can accept, because it does not alter the spirit of the amendment moved by the minister. I see no reason why a measure of this kind should be tied to a movable date. Why should we say that this
Emergency Powers

measure remain in existence for fifteen days after the house meets when we do not know when the house will meet? The amendment I shall propose at that time will be this:
To add after the word "forty-seven" in line 14 the following words:
"or on the thirty-first day of March, one thousand nine hundred and forty-seven, whichever date is the earlier."
The clause would then read as follows:
(1) Subject as hereinafter provided, this act shall expire on the thirty-first day of December, one thousand nine hundred and forty-six, if parliament meets during November or December, one thousand nine hundred and forty-six, but if parliament does not so meet it shall expire on the sixtieth day after parliament first meets during the year one thousand nine hundred and forty-seven, or on the thirty-first day of March, one thousand nine hundred and forty-seven, whichever date is the earlier.
That amendment does not alter the stated intention of the government, but it does fix a definite date of termination of this measure if the house should not meet in January.
In passing let me say I sincerely trust that, on other grounds as well as on this, the government will plan to see that the house meets next year not later than January.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, I think we are all agreed as to the necessity of some such amendment to this act as that proposed by this bill, but there are two comments which I want to make.
First of all, I am very sorry that this legislation is the occasion, as indicated by the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) on July 12, for the postponement of any dealing with old age pension legislation in this session. We had been given to understand that there would be such legislation, but later on, on the date indicated, the Prime Minister made it clear to us that by virtue of this act the decision had been made not to introduce such legislation this year but rather to bring it down next year. I am sorry that that is the case. I earnestly plead with the government that there be no further delay than the earlier part of the next session in the bringing down of old age pension legislation, and I hope that when it is brought down it will be adequate.
The other matter about which I should like to say a word is this. I feel the government has been exercising authority by order in council for so long and in so many cases that at times it gets a bit slipshod in its use of that power. I must register my protest against an action which was taken a short while ago, which we managed to get hold of by questions in the house. On Saturday, August 17, we were discussing with the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply (Mr. Howe) certain
'Mr. Bracken.]
matters relating to the Aeronautics Act. I asked about the implementation of a certain section of that act, and I was told by the minister in definite language, as recorded on page 5002 of Hansard, that the section of the act had been changed by order in council. I indicated that I had not heard of that particular order in council, but I was assured that it had been tabled. Well, even at that procedure I was annoyed, because it seemed to me that the provision in the act as passed by this parliament in 1944 was very definite, and that the government was exercising pretty wide use of its powers under order in council to change a significant and important section in an act of parliament. But my concern for that procedure led me to try to get hold of a copy of the order in council. That effort was in vain. I was informed in due course in the privy council office that there was no such order in council. Accordingly, I raised the matter in the house on the orders of the day on Tuesday, August 20, as recorded in Hansard at page 5077. I asked on that 'day for the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply to indicate the number and date of the order in council. He replied to me:
My legal department calls my attention to the fact that there was no order in council.
I asked under what authority this matter had been dealt with, and was told by the minister that it was done by a cabinet decision arrived at on February 16 last. Now, Mr. Speaker, I ask the Minister of Justice to follow this pretty closely. I grant that maybe it was a slip and perhaps the government should be pardoned a little bit for an error now and then, in face of the tremendous amount of business it has to do. But when a cabinet, merely by a decision it makes within the four walls of a cabinet meeting, changes an act of parliament without even going to the bother of getting an order in council, it does become serious.
I have done a little studying of this matter in "The Law and Custom of the Constitution", by A. V. Dicey. But for the fact that I do not want to take much time I could read from that book, with which I am sure the Minister of Justice is familiar, the comments on this whole practice of royal proclamations and legislative action by the executive. The thing which interests me is the opposition there has been to orders in council down through the years of British parliamentary history; and when you get to the end, this at least is clear, that there are recognized only two methods of legislation: one, which is frowned upon, orders in council; the other, acts of parliament. There is no provision for legislation by cabinet decision. Yet the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply told me

Emergency Powers
that this change in an act of parliament was made by a cabinet decision arrived at on February 16 last. If I understand correctly, the minutes of the cabinet meetings are not kept, at least are not made available to the public. My information is that decisions of the cabinet, of the government, have effect and force only when they become orders in council made by the governor general in council on the recommendation of the cabinet or a minister thereof. The Minister of Reconstruction and Supply read from a decision arrived at by the cabinet. This was the decision, according to the minister:
The cabinet, after discussion, agreed that the time limit for separation of control of air services from that of railways be extended for another year, i.e., until two years after the end of the European war.
I am not discussing the issue itself, the actual decision changing one year to two years, but the whole principle of this kind of change being made in this instance not by order in council but by a cabinet decision. I quote further from Hansard at page 5077:
Mr. Knowles:	I rise to a question of privilege. The section of the act says that it must be done by the governor in council. There was no order in council, and therefore I suggest that the act has been violated.
Mr. Mackenzie:	It does not have to be under
an order in council; the government decides in council.
In other words this was not just a slip on the part of the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply; the Minister of Veterans Affairs (Mr. Mackenzie), the leader of the house at the present time, concurred in the practice. I continue quoting from Hansard'.
Mr. Coldwell:	Without the authority of parliament? May I ask the Minister of Reeon-strucion, or the leader of the house, if either of these gentlemen means to imply that the government has authority to do what is not authorized by this house or by statute?
Mr. Mackenzie:	The government of the Dominion of Canada is a responsible body, responsible to parliament and responsible by answering questions on the floor of the house, and whether there is an order in council or not the government can take action and answer to parliament accordingly.
Mr. Knowles:	That is not the way the act
reads.
I should have said, "that ain't the way I hear'd it." It does seem to me that even if this is only a slip, and even if it has been taken care of in some other way since it was brought to the attention of the government as was done on that occasion, I should be remiss in my duty if I did not make this further comment, that the government should be very careful under their powers to legislate by order in council, and certainly that this kind of thing should not happen again. It
leaves me with the question of whether or not it has happened in other instances. It was by pure accident that I found this out, by pressing the minister for the information about that order in council which he told me had been passed; and my interest in it, as I have already said, led me to try to get a copy of the order in council. This was the result. I suggest to the government that they should be very careful in the exercise of powers through the medium of order in council. This kind of thing certainly must not take place; there is no provision for it whatever; and even when they do things by order in council I suggest they should be very careful not to go beyond the intent of parliament in the legislation that is passed by this house.


Mr. G. H. CASTLEDEN (Yorkton):: I want to add my protest to that of the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles). I believe every citizen of Canada should be fully informed of what is happening here to-day, when this type of thing can take place. Surely it is the duty of every member of parliament to act as custodian of the freedom of the people, and to see that the democratic procedures of government are followed. Members of parliament are sent here as representatives of the people. We pass the laws. The act to which the hon. member refers does not contain any provision under which it may be altered by order in council. There is a right to enact regulations by order in council, but there is no right to change acts. Here we have an act actually changed, not even by an order in council but, as the minister has said, by the cabinet discussing the matter and agreeing that the time limit for separation of control of air services from that of railways be extended for another year, that is, until two years after the war.
I want to know whether the Minister of Justice (Mr. St. Laurent) condones that sort of thing, and what the other members of the cabinet think about what was done in this case. The minister himself will be expected, when he comes before this house, to explain why he informed hon. members that an order in council had been passed, as he did on August 17, at page 5002 of Hansard'.
The effective date of this legislation has been advanced by order in council passed under the emergency powers act.
Then the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre said:
I suppose that order in council was tabled?
Mr. Howe:	Yes; all orders in council passed
under the emergency powers act are tabled.
Emergency Powers

But there was no such order in council, so naturally it was never tabled. I can remember that in 1935 and during previous election campaigns the Prime Minister went from coast to coast telling the people about order in council government. We learned something about democracy in those days; still we have this sort of thing happening in Canada. Every member of parliament should be alert and on guard, watching what is going on. Is this type of thing to be condoned in Canada? I shall have something more to say when we get into committee.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Mr. Speaker, I should like to make one brief comment. I believe the question raised by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) is of far-reaching importance, and I for one hope that the Minister of Justice (Mr. St. Laurent), whose opinion would carry great weight both in this house and throughout the country, will not let this debate conclude without saying something on the point, particularly in reference to the statement of the Minister of Veterans Affairs (Mr. Mackenzie) which to me, though I am not a constitutional expert, certainly did seem an interesting and extraordinary proposition.
Mr. SOLON E. LOW (Peace River): Mr. Speaker, the incident which has been brought before the house by hon. gentlemen to my right emphasizes one of the grave dangers inherent in government by order in council, and indicates that the sooner we can get rid of the emergency powers act the better it will be for government in Canada. Before the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) left for Europe he had a chat with some of us, and on behalf of this group I agreed that if he would call the 1947 session as early as possible in January we would support the amendment to the National Emergency Transitional Powers Act, which is now before us. I am going to stand by the agreement I made at that time; aS I say, I gave the undertaking that we would support it, on that one condition. However, I did like the amendment suggested by the leader of the opposition (Mr. Bracken); I do believe it is a safeguard, and when the minister speaks I should like him to indicate whether the government will be prepared to accept such an amendment, because my own feeling is that I should support it.


Mr. WILLIAM IRVINE (Cariboo):: I want to say just one word. I think the matter which has been brought to the attention of the house by the hon. member for Winnipeg

North Centre (Mr. Knowles) is something regrettable, if the facts are exactly as he stated them to be. I hope the minister will be able to give a satisfactory explanation to the house. Personally I am not prepared at the present time to give up all controls which the government now holds. I supported the extension of these controlling powers some time ago, and I will still support them until such time at it may be proper to remove them. I am not sure that we shall ever remove all of them. I hope not, because I think somebody has to control something some time in order that we may go somewhere instead of nowhere.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: Mr. Speaker-


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER:: I must inform the house that if the minister speaks now, he will close the debate.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: With respect to the suggestion of the leader of the opposition as to an amendment, may I refer hon. members to page 3157 of Hansard of July 5, 1946, where the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) made this statement:
I believe it would be meeting the wishes of hon. members generally if I were to give an immediate undertaking that, unless something unforeseen may occasion us to call parliament sooner than the time I am going to mention, or something occur which might render it desirable to take an extra week or two before calling parliament, parliament will be called before the end of January, probably the last week in January.
The implementing of that undertaking would have the same effect as the amendment suggested by the leader of the opposition. I will not oppose the addition of that amendment to the bill, although it does seem to me that it is perhaps unnecessary in view of the categorical statement made on July 5 by the Prime Minister.


John Bracken: In the statement the minister has read there is mention of "something unforeseen" happening. It is just to cover those unforeseen things that I advanced my amendment.
Mr. ST. LAL'RENT: If something unforeseen did happen and it became impossible to have parliament meet and deal with the existing situation, a pretty chaotic condition might arise. I am not going to take the responsibility of dividing the house upon it, but I do wish hon. members to realize that there has been as positive an undertaking as any responsible Prime Minister could give, subject of course to unforeseen conditions. We know in recent years that unforeseen happenings do occur. If the house feels that it should take

Emergency Powers
the responsibility of making this terminate on March 31, even though there should be unforeseen conditions that might make it impracticable to have the house meet as stated by the Prime Minister, I shall not ask the house to divide on such an amendment. But I do suggest that the possible disadvantages appear to outweigh the possible advantages of having that addition made.
I wish to tender my sincere thanks to the bon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) for the reasonable and understanding way in which he has made his suggestion. I have not had an opportunity of going into this matter in detail, but there is no doubt that there cannot be any amendment of legislation by a decision of the cabinet. My understanding was that the decision of the cabinet was to refrain from taking any action, but there will have to be by regular constitutional methods an amendment made to the legislation. I have not had an opportunity of examining the statute in question in order to express an opinion as to how that legislative change could be made. Section 14 of the act reads:
Every licence issued under part III of the Transport Act, 1938, or under part VII of the air regulations, 1938, prior to and in force at the time of the coming into force of this part shall be deemed to be a licence issued under section twelve of this act, but every such licence if not cancelled or suspended by the board under section thirteen of this act, shall cease to be valid one year after the termination, as fixed by order in council, of the war in Europe which commenced on the tenth day of September, one thousand nine hundred and thirty-nine.
There has not yet been any date fixed by order in council as the date of termination of the war which commenced on September 10, 1939. There has been for the purposes of the War Measures Act an enactment by parliament that the War Measures Act would come to an end when the National Emergency Transitional Powers Act came into force. My understanding was that the decision of cabinet was merely a decision that it would not take steps to force the railway companies to divest themselves of licences for air transport. There was no attempt made to modify the legislation; it was merely a decision as to what conduct would be adopted by the department. All hon. members who have spoken about this are quite right in saying that there cannot be amendments of legislation except by parliament or when parliament has so authorized by order in council. '


Stanley Howard Knowles: The minister told the house that as he understood it the effective date of section 14, which you have just read, was May, 1946. The minister stated that 63260-338
an order in council had been passed, and it was when that order in council was not available that he told us this decision had been taken by cabinet. I do not wish to press the matter a great deal further, because I am glad to have on the record the opinion of the Minister of Justice that such action certainly was not in order if it was taken in that way.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: As I said before, I am glad that the hon. member has used the language he has in commenting upon it.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Don't do it again, or the language will be tougher.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: Hon. members know that we have all been under tremendous pressure; when a question is raised in the house without notice one replies according to what his impression of the facts may be at that time and it can happen that that impression may not be strictly accurate. With respect to the question of law, there is no doubt that no amendment can be made by a decision of the cabinet unless parliament states that it shall be made in that way. I do not know of any legislation under which parliament has so stated. The conduct of the administration in carrying out the legislation of parliament is conduct about which decisions of cabinet are frequently made and with respect to which the administration is responsible to this house. I am sure that is what was meant by the Minister of Veterans Affairs (Mr. Mackenzie), because I do not think anyone would attempt to say that amendments can be made to statutes, or even to orders in council adopted under statutes, by any other method than an act of parliament or an order in council made under powers granted by an act of parliament.


Stanley Howard Knowles: So the section the minister read still stands as law?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: Here again, unless there has been legislation, and I do not know of any, or unless there has been an order in council, and I do not know of any, it still stands as existing law.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair.
On section 1-Continuation.
John Bracken: I think it is to this section that the amendment I proposed should be moved. As I said, it would not change the intention of the government as expressed by its own amendment. My amendment simply asks that if for any reason parliament should

Emergency Powers

meet later than. January, by that action this statute will not be extended. That is all. So that hon. members may understand it, I will read the section as proposed to be amended by the government, together with the addition I propose:
Subject as hereinafter provided, this Act shall expire on the thirty-first day of December, one thousand nine hundred and forty-six, if parliament meets during November or December, one thousand nine hundred and forty-six, but if parliament does not so meet it shall expire on the sixtieth day after parliament first meets during the year one thousand nine hundred and forty-seven.
The words I propose to add are: or on the thirty-first day of March, one thousand nine hundred and forty-seven, whichever date is the earlier.
That does not tie the termination of the act to a movable date, and it does not shorten the period within which the government has indicated its willingness to amend the act.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: Mr. Chairman, I do not want to repeat at length what I have said. I will not ask to divide the committee upon it. I think it is possibly dangerous to have my hon. friend's amendment made. I will give just one illustration, not that I have any reason whatsoever to feel that there is any probability or even reasonable possibility of its happening. But should there come about something which required a dissolution of parliament-


An hon. MEMBER:: Like an election?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: Like an election, parliament might not after the present prorogation have another opportunity before March 31, 1947, to do anything that would retain for any further period the wartime prices and trade control, rent control, the control of marketing required to carry out the international agreements that have been signed. That would bring about a chaotic situation. I do not think there is any chance of its coming about. Nevertheless, in French we have a proverb "gouverner, c'est prevoir," and if that should come about I would not like it to be felt that it was the responsibility of the government. If it should come about, it would have to be regarded as the chance that was taken by parliament itself and I should like to have it remembered that I advised against it. I think that everything that would be achieved by the amendment will be achieved under the undertaking given by the Prime Minister, and it would be only if the very unexpected thing should happen, of which there does not seem to be the remotest possibility at the present time, that the earlier date would be the one 
expressed in the amendment of the hon. leader of the opposition. I respectfully submit that the possible disadvantages do outweigh the possible advantages of having that fixed date written into the law.


John Bracken: Whatever action is taken by the house on this amendment, the government must accept responsibility for it, because it has a majority in the house. I say that only because of the argument just made by the minister.
I have only one other thing to say. This question was raised by the Prime Minister in June or early July last with I think all the leaders of parties on this side of the house. Certainly it was taken up with me, and I agreed to it, on the condition that this house would meet in January. At that time there was no condition laid down such as "something unforeseen" happening.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: Oh yes, there was. If the hon. member will just look at Hansard-


John Bracken: I am not talking about what appears in Hansard, but of what the Prime Minister said when he called us in and asked if we would agree. I said we would if the house met in January. The Prime Minister said he would give that undertaking. But when he came into the house he qualified that undertaking by saying, unless "something unforeseen" happened parliament would be called in January. Mr. Speaker, this is not something for prolonged debate, and I have nothing more to say except this: If the government intends that this statute shall not be continued beyond March 31 next, we will accept the government's amendment, subject to the one I have just moved; but if it wants to extend the act for some reason or other beyond that date, we could not agree to it.
Mr. MaeINNIS: I consider the amendment proposed by the leader of the opposition to be a reasonable one in the circumstances. I do not think anyone in this house can accuse me of not being reasonable, particularly in this matter. I felt last session when we were discussing the emergency powers bill that the official opposition were being unreasonable in their criticism of the extension of special powers which the government was asking for. I felt that the government because of circumstances should have a considerable amount of -if I may use the word-elasticity in dealing with affairs in transition. But I received a distinct shock when, the day before parliament adjourned, I think it was, after the act was amended, the government brought in orders

Emergency Powers
in council putting measures into effect with which parliament had definitely declared it would not have anything to do. So that on this occasion I feel that there should be a distinct limit to the powers which are exercised now under the National Emergency Transitional Powers Act. If they need to be extended later, after parliament meets, I believe this group will be prepared to deal with the matter then on its merits, but at the moment I think we should support the amendment made by the leader of the opposition.


Mr. LOW:: I would urge the government
to accept the amendment; I believe it is a good one, and this group feels strongly that it should be adopted. If after the house meets again it is necessary to give the government support in any suggested changes which might be necessary to meet difficulties that will or may arise, we certainly will support them in the passing of an order in council or of any legislation they desire. But I would urge strongly that the government accept this.
Amendment (Mr. Bracken) agreed to.


George Hugh Castleden: It is interesting that
the minister said to-day that the only order in council passed in regard to the termination of the war is in regard to the termination of the war for purposes of the War Measures Act.
Mr. ST. LAURENT:	No. What I said
was that no order in council had been passed, but that this house had, by a statute which was enacted last year, declared that for the purposes of the War Measures Act the war against Germany and Japan shall be deemed no longer to exist. That is section 5 of chapter 25 of the statutes of 1945. It reads as follows:
5. This act shall come into force on the first day of January, one thousand nine hundred and forty-six, and on and after that day the war against Germany and Japan shall, for the purpose of the War Measurts Act, be deemed no longer to exist.
That is what I was referring to.


George Hugh Castleden: That is the only action we have so far as the official termination of the war is concerned. There has been no termination of the war other than for the purposes of the War Measures Act, and the other order in council, P.G. 7514, dated January 4, 1946, for the purpose of the Excess Profits Tax Act. Otherwise we are officially at war with Germany and Japan?
Mr. ST. LAURENT:	Under international
law we remain at war until the treaties of peace shall have been signed.


Mr. ADAMSON:: Just one question on that. Surely the government of Germany no longer exists. There is no recognized government of Germany at all to be at war or peace with.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: But the German state does exist; the existence of war is existence of war between the allies and the German state, and German nationals are still technically to be regarded as enemies.


George Hugh Castleden: Officially as far as Canada is concerned the war will not be deemed to be terminated until there is some proclamation after the signing of peace; is that it? It complicates legislation in different parts of Canada with regard to agreements, collective bargaining agreements and leases and the rest, and arrangements between governments and various bodies to the effect that such and such a regulation shall continue so long as the war shall be deemed to exist, and they are waiting for the federal government to declare the war at an end to end that legislation. However, that is not the important point. So far as the government's action is concerned in advancing the date as it applies under section 14 of the Aeronautics Act, in doing that by a cabinet decision, do I understand the minister to say that that was just an oversight, that they had no intention of changing legislation?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I have said nothing of the kind.


George Hugh Castleden: Is it the intention of the government at this time to pass an order in council in respect of that?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I am not in a position to say what are the intentions of the government. Frankly I do not remember whether I was present on this occasion when the cabinet decision referred to by the minister was made. The minister has said here that in his opinion this change should be made and that he would in due course recommend it, and I think he was asked if he did not think that his opinion would have , considerable weight with his colleagues. Nevertheless I am not in a position at this time to state what will be the government's policy in that regard.
Section as amended agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.
63260-338;
Militia Pension Act



MILITIA PENSION ACT


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Acting Prime Minister) moved the second reading of bill No. 392, to amend the Militia Pension Act.
Hugues Lapointe: As the minister pointed out on Friday last when he introduced the resolution to the house, briefly this act tries to bring into conformity with the Civil Service Superannuation Act the present Militia Pension Act. In view of the fact that the provisions of the Militia Pension Act, and also those of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act, appertaining to service pensions of members and benefits for their dependents, were not uniform with the provisions of other long-service pension plans of the federal government, there was established by treasury board minute a committee to review these acts, having in mind the provisions of the Civil Service Superannuation Act, and to recommend legislation aiming at the attainment of a degree of uniformity with the latter statute. The treasury board minute stated that the committee was to make its examination on the understanding that the changes which might be made would not apply to any member of the forces now under the respective acts unless such member so elected. The house might be interested to know that this committee was presided over by Mr. G. D. Finlayson, superintendent of insurance and comprised representatives from the three services, the financial superintendent of the Department of National Defence, and the director of the superannuation division of the Department of Finance, together with members of the staff of the treasury board to help them in their work.
The present bill is the one which was drafted by this committee, and it has the recommendation of the committee. The bill, as the explanatory notes indicate, is twofold in its scope. Sections 1 to 5 are for the purpose of amending and bringing up to date the existing provisions of the Militia Pensions Act so as to permit time served on active service during the last war to be included in the pensionable term of service of persons appointed to the permanent forces prior to April 1, 1946 and also to provide for minor amendments in part II of the act, which relates to the naval service, consequent upon certain administrative changes therein. The remaining section of the act adds a new part, part V, which is to be applicable to all persons joining the permanent force after March 31, 1946, in other words, all new

members coming into the post-war army and also those persons to whom the present act applies and who may elect to come under the new part.
The new part V provides that all persons to whom it applies shall contribute a percentage of their pay and allowances towards making good the pensions, gratuities and allowances specified in the part. It also makes provisions, to the extent therein provided, for the payment of allowances and gratuities to the dependents of all persons to whom this part applies. In these respects, this new part added to the act differs from existing provisions in that under the latter only officers and warrant officers were required to contribute to the pension fund, whereas on the other hand only the widows and children of those officers and warrant officers were eligible for any allowances and pensions. Part V conforms in principle and in substance to the Civil Service Superannuation Act, with such modifications and adaptations as were necessary to adapt the principles of that act to the particular circumstances of the armed services.


Hon. GROTE STIRLING (Yale):: I should like to indicate the position we take with regard to this measure. It received its first reading only on the 23rd, that is three days ago, one of the intervening days being a Sunday, and I understand it has not been considered by the veterans affairs committee. The members of our party who have served in the forces have not had any opportunity of considering it, and we regard it as a very heavy piece of legislation to bring forward at this stage of the session. We are of the opinion that every clause of it should have been considered by a committee, preferably the veterans affairs committee. That was not done, and we must therefore take the view that since it is putting this bill through at this late date the government must take the onus of responsibility for it,


John Oliver Probe: I feel, as does the hon. member who has just spoken (Mr. Stirling) that this whole subject of permanent force pensions might well be referred to the study of a special committee. However. I wish to make a few observations on the bill which is now before us. The position at the present time is that when men have served for a period of years in the permanent military establishments of the country, and while they are still comparatively young, they are put on a lifetime pension paid by the people of Canada for the good service which they rendered while members of the permanent force.

Militia Pension Act
With the general thesis that a pension should be paid by the state to its servants there can be no disagreement. But when we consider the comparative inequity as 'between the permanent force, in regard to service pensions, and civilians in other walks of life, both members of the civil service and the people who have to buy annuities and pay for them, which annuities become pensions on their retirement from active work, then I think it is time some of us uttered a very strong protest.
I direct the attention of the house to the comments made by the auditor general with respect to the Militia Pension Act on page 47 of the .1945 accounts. Certain statistics which he gives are of interest and, I think, might well be put on the record:
In 1,938-39 there were approximately 1,400 contributors under the act. The number is now in excess of 4,800. The increases are mainly in army (from 1,000 to over 2,300) and in air (from 305 to 2,066). Contributions in 1938-39 were $179,027.16 and in 1944-45 the sum was $715,594.37.
That is the contribution by the individual in the service toward the pension fund.
On the other hand, disbursements by reason of awards increased from $1,548,537.55 to $2,227,534.95 in the same period.
That simply means that the government of Canada has increased the payment to pensioners by roughly fifty per cent in the period from 1939 to 1944. Putting it in still another way, in 1938-39 the awards under the pension act were roughly ten times the contributions made by the individuals who expected to benefit from the pension funds.
In 1944-45 the amount paid out in pensions was roughly three times the amount put in by the prospective claimants to pension. In other words the expenditure by the government itself, without any quid pro quo by the service persons was at the rate of $1,500,000 a year in 1944-45. To my mind there is no objection to the fact that the federal government is contributing to this pension. Do not overlook that. I shall come to that point in a moment. May I again quote from the auditor general's report:
It will thus be observed that current contributions represent about one-third of the outgo. In the 1944-45 fiscal year, 275 awards were made under the Militia Pension Act. In the case of those who were contributors prior to May 1, 1929, pension awards are computed on pay and allowances as of the date of retirement; in all other cases a three year average is applicable. A survey of awards made in 1944-45 shows that, when promotions have been frequent, the pension award generally approximates or exceeds the pay and allowances of 1939.
A table is given to illustrate the size of the pension in certain specific cases. I shall refer to a number of these examples to give the members of the house and the country generally an indication of what our permanent force people get by way of gratuity for the remainder of their lives from a generous government. Here is an example of a person who retired from the services at the age of forty-three,-a younger man than I am, and considerably younger than most hon. members in the house. He had had twenty-one years of service. In August 1939 he was a sergeant. He retired as a squadron leader. The pay and allowances which were considered for the purpose of computing pension under the act were at the rate of $4,210.51 a year. This gentleman, who is now forty-three years of age, receives a pension for life of $1,760.35. That, of course, is a fairly generous pension for a man who still has, I hope, many years of life ahead of him.
Let me give another example. It is that of an officer in the army who is now forty-seven years of age and who had twenty-eight years of service. Before the war he was a major. He retired as a major-general. At the time of his retirement he was receiving pay and allowances of $8,533.94 a year. By way of pension award we are giving him $4,947 a year. If he lives the normal life span I have no doubt that the country will be saddled with this very generous pension for anywhere from twenty to thirty or forty years. That is not the most extreme pension case.


Mr. GIBSON (Hamilton West):: Would the hon. member permit an interruption?' The hon. member said that at the date of retirement this officer was receiving pay at the rate of $8,533.94 a year. That is the amount of pay and allowances for computing pension, and it would be an average of his three years' pay and allowances, not the amount he was actually receiving at the time of retirement.


John Oliver Probe: I stand corrected. I said earlier, in quoting from the Militia Pension Act report of the auditor general, that the basis of computation for those who have joined the service after 1929 was the last three year average rather than the last year of pay. Since this gentleman had twenty-eight years of service, I would judge that he was in the service before 1929. However, I am happy to accept the correction. I am not so much concerned about the fact that his average pay over the last three years was some $8,500; what I am concerned with is that a comparatively young man, forty-seven years of age, should be receiving a pension of $4,947 a year. After all is said and done, that is not a bad
Militia Pension Act

rate of pay when we remember what is happening in connection with the fifteen cents an hour for which the steelworkers are asking.
Let me give one more example, and I shall conclude my references to the examples which are set out in the auditor general's report. A gentleman with the fleet recently retired at the age of fifty-three after thirty-five years of what undoubtedly was good service. He retired wdth the rank of vice-admiral. For the purpose of computing his pension, his pay and allowances, which may have been over a three year average-that I am not prepared to say-was $12,629.94 a year. Grateful Canada digs into the national coffers to the extent of $8,840.96 a year to pay a pension.


An hon. MEMBER:: What about the privates?


John Oliver Probe: There is nothing here about privates, consequently there is no use in talking about pensions for privates. I venture to say that the auditor general could not have a great deal to complain about with respect to pensions for privates. I recall bringing a complaint before the Minister of Labour (Mr. Mitchell) with respect to the pension of a permanent force private. He is receiving a pension of $79 a month and has tried to supplement his pension by taking employment. When he took employment- not with the feedral government-he was entitled to both his pension and his pay as an employee; but by the terms of our various federal regulations that man has to give up his pension while working for the federal government if he receives a salary in excess of S79 a month. I understand that there are certain distinguished members in the house, certainly one a member of the Conservative party, who is receiving a pension which is in the neighbourhood of the amount that we receive as members of the House of Commons with the $2,000 expense allowance we were given last December. The point I want to make is that these pensions which run into several thousand dollars annually are likely to be paid for a considerable number of years, because the pensioners themselves are still comparatively young. They are entirely out of line with pensions payable to our aged1, with pensions which people themselves are able to buy, with pensions which are paid to the buck private, the aircraftman or the naval rating.
There is a way around this matter of paying pensions based on the last year's pay and allowances or the last three years' pay and allowances before the officer or the rating was put on pension. If the government insists on

keeping a form of differentiation between the brass hat and the private, why could it not consider paying a basic pension to all ranks, say the present rate of pension now paid to the private, the aircraftman or the naval rating? Then officers in the permanent force who have been receiving $3,000, $8,000, $10,000 or $12,000 and who may wish to supplement their pension could contribute five or ten per cent of their salaries to the government, which could arrange to give them the actuarial value of the payments they had made during their years of service in order to supplement what would be paid to the average rank and file of the permanent force at the end of their service. I think that would be perfectly fair, and the government would not then be saddled with an expense over twenty or twenty-five years which is out of all proportion to what the government is willing to pay to others who have been equally worthy in the service of their country.
I am not taking a thing away from the service rendered during the period of enrolment in the permanent force; I am not taking away any of their lustre. If we must have a permanent force, they must be paid, but they should be paid on an equitable basis. There are other people who have filled more humble roles but who have been equally valuable in the development of the country and who receive a miserable pittance of $20 or $25 or $28 monthly which we are prepared to pay by way of pension.
When people are old, regardless of whether they have been generals or privates, they have the same needs. It is not necessary to build up an estate for these people. If they have been generals or squadron leaders they have been in receipt of amounts far in excess of those received by the average citizens of this country. If they wish to go for a trip around the world in their old age, they have had the means to provide while they are earning. I take very violent exception to concurring-


An hon. MEMBER:: Vigorous.


John Oliver Probe: I do not care about the terminology, but I mean violent. I take the strongest possible exception as a taxpayer to having to pay pensions to people who are still comparatively young, and on the other hand having to concur in the miserable pittances we pay to other citizens who have contributed just as greatly to the well-being of this country.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair.

Militia Pension Act
On section 1-Subsection repealed.
George Hugh Castleden: Is there any machinery by which contributions can be made by officers in the armed forces so that they may have their ordinary pensions supplemented?


Hugues Lapointe: The amount of contribution to be made is set out in section 44, which reads:
Every person to whom this part applies shall, by reservation from his pay and allowances, contribute to the consolidated revenue fund the following amounts:
(a)	while in receipt of pay and allowances of twelve hundred dollars per annum or less, five per centum thereof;
(b)	while in receipt of pay and allowances over twelve hundred dollars and not over fifteen hundred dollars per annum, five and one-half per centum thereof but not in excess of an amount which would reduce the remainder of his pay and. allowances to a rate per annum of eleven hundred and forty dollars; or
(c)	while in receipt of pay and allowances over fifteen hundred dollars per annum, six per centum thereof but not in Sxcess of an amount which would reduce the remainder of his pay and allowances to a rate per annum of fourteen hundred and seventeen dollars and fifty cents;
Those are exactly the same percentages provided for in the Civil Service Superannuation Act.


George Hugh Castleden: What happens to a man's contribution when he retires before pensionable age?


Hugues Lapointe: It depends upon what the basis of retirement is. If an officer retires voluntarily, his contribution is paid back. If he has not had at least ten years' service, is most cases of retirement he would receive a gratuity equal to one month's pay for each year of service.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.
The committee resumed at three o'clock.


John Oliver Probe: The expenditures under the Militia Pension Act undoubtedly will increase considerably w'ith the proposed expansion of of the permanent force. In order to make the different clauses of this bill more intelligible I think the parliamentary assistant should indicate the probable cost to the treasury when members of the enlarged permanent force begin to take advantage of the retirement benefits. If he cannot give this information now, perhaps he will have it prepared and tabled as soon as convenient.


Hugues Lapointe: I am afraid I have not the figures for which the hon. member is asking-that is, the cost projected fifteen or twenty years ahead. I shall be glad to have these statistics prepared. I have only the figures, which my hon. friend has himself, of the amounts expended during the years previous to the war. I do not think these could be used as a basis of comparison, because the provisions of the new legislation are different. Under the new legislation the pension is based on the average pay and allowances for the last six years, whereas most of the pensions paid prior to the war were based on one year's pay and allowances.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 2, 3 and 4 agreed to.
On section 5-" Force."
Mr. HARKNESS:: Paragraph (f) of this section states that "service," in the case of a man, shall not include time served without pay in the force. The only time a man serves without pay, so far as I know, is when he is absent without leave or is under detention.


Hugues Lapointe: This applies particularly to the naval services. My hon. friend is quite right; that would be the time when a contributor is not receiving pay-when he is absent without leave, and so forth.


John Oliver Probe: I think paragraphs (e) and (f) should be considered together. I should like to have the assurance of the parliamentary assistant that clause (f) would not mean time spent by a man in the non-permanent forces.


Hugues Lapointe: No.


John Oliver Probe: As I read paragraph (e) it means that an officer shall receive credit for time served in the non-permanent active militia or on equivalent duties at the rate of half time, whereas (f), if it follows directly from that, means that a man who was not a commissioned officer would not be given credit for the time served in the non-permanent force.


Hugues Lapointe: Paragraph (e) applies particularly to the navy, and is intended to put the naval services on the same footing as the militia. As my hon. friend knows, half the time served in the militia up to ten years can be counted for the purposes of pension under the present act, and this is to put the naval services on the same footing. Paragraph (f) does not mean what my hon. friend is saying. As he knows, a man serving in the non-permanent militia is on duty and is paid.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Militia Pension Act
[Stage Direction]
Section 6-Part V.
Douglas Scott Harkness: Is this section to be carried, as one, or will each of the different clauses making up part V be considered separately? I think it would be preferable to do that.


William Ross Macdonald: I take it the hon. member would like to ask questions on any section in part V that would be in order.


Douglas Scott Harkness: The new section 46 provides that the governor in council may grant pensions, allowances and gratuities to certain groups of people which are specified. Does that mean that in some cases they will be granted and in other cases they will not be granted, or does it mean that they will be granted in all cases?


Hugues Lapointe: As I understand it, a
pension is always at the discretion of the governor in council. This is similar to the Civil Service Superannuation Act and the Judges Act, and I believe it was also in the old act.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Certain of the subsections of section 46 deal with the granting of pensions to men who have had ten years' service but less than twenty years' service, and in some cases it covers men who have had less than ten years' service. It seems to me that the granting of a pension on the scale provided for members of the permanent force to a man who has had no more than ten years' service is unduly generous treatment. These subsections should be explained more fully. I can foresee the situation where many men taken into the army will in say ten, twelve or thirteen years be retired on substantial pensions after a comparatively short period of service. We have not had much time to study the bill and I should like a little information on what I would call the ten-year pension clauses. I would much prefer that these clauses stand for further consideration next year. I would refer to section 46(d) (ii) on page 7 of the bill, especially lines 25, 26 and 27, and in particular to the phrase "and who was not in the forces on the first day of June, 1944." I do not know what that means.


Hugues Lapointe: First may I say that no pensions are paid to anyone who has had less than ten years' service. A gratuity may be paid in some cases on the basis of one month's pay for each year of service, but no annual pension is paid unless ten years of service have been completed. What my hon. friend refers to as the ten-year pension clauses cover officers and other ranks who have served for

ten years, which qualifies them for pension, and the amount of the pension depends upon the total years served. There is also a clause covering a man who is disabled, and provision for a man who has served over ten years and also served during the late war. A similar clause is in the present act. Then there is also a pension for the man who has served for at least ten years and who, to promote efficiency or economy in the service, is retired. He receives two-thirds of the pension which he would have received if disabled. The clause to which my hon. friend referred, (d)(ii), is to cover an officer who was not in the permanent force before the war but served during the war and whom we wish to keep in the service because of his experience or usefulness. He may be permitted to retire on the grounds set out in (d)'(iii).


Douglas Scott Harkness: What is the meaning of the phrase "and who was not in the forces on the first day of June, 1944"?


Hugues Lapointe: That is to cover those
officers who were not in the permanent force on that date and whom we wish to retain in the service.


Douglas Scott Harkness: It is not by any means intended to take care of the man who did not join the forces until after June 1, 1944?


Hugues Lapointe: No, that is not the purpose at all.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Paragraph (g) is to take care of the contributor who retires voluntarily or is compulsorily retired for any reason. He receives an allowance equal to his total contributions, without interest. The other provisions providing pensions are pretty generous, and it seems to me it would only be fair to pay to the class of contributor mentioned in paragraph (g) his total contributions plus interest.


Hugues Lapointe: This same provision
exists in the Civil Service Superannuation Act and other government pension acts. The contributions are returned without interest.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Even when the man is retired compulsorily?


Hugues Lapointe: Whether compulsorily or voluntarily, the same provision applies.


John Oliver Probe: Throughout this whole section runs the phrase "otherwise than by reason of misconduct" and occasionally "misconduct or inefficiency." The governor in council is not obligated to pay an annual pension in such cases. If a man is retired after twenty years' service and is refused a pension, how can he make certain that his case has been justly treated? What recourse has he?

Militia Pension Act


Hugues Lapointe: The cases for which, as pertaining to pensions, an officer or other rank may be considered to have been discharged for misconduct are specified in subsection 3, paragraph (a) in case of an officer, and paragraph (b) in case of other ranks. For instance: (b) in the case of a member of the forces other than an officer,
(i)	he is discharged or dismissed from His Majesty's service by sentence of a court-martial; or
(ii)	he is discharged by reason of conviction by a civil court of a court-martial, or in the naval forces, is dismissed.
These are cases in which the man would lose his right to pension. In other cases he would have a pension. Now, as to his case being reviewed or given sufficient consideration. I venture to say it would not come under the, administration of this act, but rather, where a man is court martialed, he has the usual appeals which are given to other men and he can make a petition, as my hon. friend knows, to have his court martial reviewed and the sentence quashed. But that does not come under this. If the sentence is changed or quashed he will qualify, because this proviso would disappear.


John Oliver Probe: There is one safeguard: section 50 actually covers the procedure, where the treasury board makes its report, and retirement for misconduct is referred to a board of officers to be appointed by the minister, to be known as the pension and claims board, for the purpose of investigation on review. As the parliamentary assistant knows, and as many of us in the house know, what constitutes misconduct in a military sense may not be misconduct in a civilian sense, and it seems to me that where the military authorities have ruled misconduct the right of appeal of the individual service man should be to some board other than a military one. Would the parliamentary assistant express an opinion or offer a suggestion with reference to that phrase "board of officers" on page 11, line 22 of the bill? If instead of a board of officers reviewing these appeals we had someone not connected with the military service at all, there could be no element of injustice and I would say that once they disposed of a claim their judgment cohld be accepted all round. A military tribunal has rigid standards of military misconduct which might not be tenable in an army that is functioning in peacetime.


Hugues Lapointe: I can only repeat that the man cannot be discharged for misconduct, according to the terms of this bill, except as a result of a decision of a court, be it a court martial or a civilian court. He can go through the usual procedure and the
usual channels which are available to anyone in the army to appeal from that decision. Again, the board referred to in section 50 can recommend that in spite of this discharge for misconduct he be granted a pension.


John Oliver Probe: But my objection is that the appeal is to a board of "officers".


Hugues Lapointe: I agree with the hon. member that there are cases in which a man can be court martialed for some military offence, some breach of discipline which in the light of civilian living would not constitute an offence. But I suggest that that is something which the man who enlisted in the army has to put up with. When he joins the army he renders himself liable to the Army Act and the various regulations which are enacted for the army, and similarly with any of the other services. He is informed of that, he knows what the law is as far as he as a soldier is concerned, and he must abide by it.


George Hugh Castleden: I wish to refer to section 6.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: It was carried.


George Hugh Castleden: I should like to point out to hon. members that section 6 of this act begins on page 3, ends on 'page 14, and includes all the sections from 42 to 56.


An hon. MEMBER:: You had plenty of notice before it was carried.


George Hugh Castleden: We have had the bill several weeks, I suppose?


Grote Stirling: Three days.


George Hugh Castleden: We have not carried clauses 42 to 58 under section 6.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: It has been carried.


George Hugh Castleden: Well, perhaps you would like a little fight about it. I want to refer to section 42. I notice that-
(i)	"service" means time served in the forces and includes, for the purpose of making contributions and of computing pensions, allowances or gratuities under this part;
(ii)	time served in the civil service or the Royal Canadian Mounted Police;
Can any person coming out of the civil service or the mounted police and joining the army include any time that he has had either in the service or the police?


Hugues Lapointe: Yes, the time counts which they have served in the civil service and during which they have contributed to the civil service superannuation fund. The reason for this is that they continue to contribute in the army on the same basis and the same percentage of their pay. In other words a civil servant who has after six or
Militia Pension Act

eight years in the civil service contributed yearly five or five and a half per cent, according to his salary, may join the permanent force and continue to contribute.


George Hugh Castleden: Assuming that a person were to move out of the Department of Agriculture and join the army, the time served in the department could be reckoned as pensionable time and considered as service as far as he is concerned?


Hugues Lapointe: That is right.


George Hugh Castleden: That applies to any branch of the civil service?


Hugues Lapointe: That is right.


George Hugh Castleden: I was wondering about the meaning of section 42, subsection 1, paragraph (iv):
(i) in the case of any person appointed to or enlisted in the forces on or after the first day of April, 1946, one-fourth of the period of service counted as service in the non-permanent active militia in respect of army personnel; as service in the auxiliary active air force or the Royal Canadian Air Force (auxiliary) in respect of air force personnel; and as service in the Royal Canadian Naval Reserve, the Royal Canadian Naval Volunteer Reserve or the Royal Canadian Navy (reserve) in respect of naval personnel;
Is that class the same as it was under the
old pension act?


Hugues Lapointe: No; in the old act it was half the time served in the militia; under this act it is one-fourth of the time served in the militia.


George Hugh Castleden: Could the assistant give us a typical ease? Take an officer whose pension is contributed on the basis of say $2,200, and who would be contributing six per cent deductible for his pension; that gives him about $132 a year. Suppose he serves for a twenty-year period; what would his pension then be? Compare that with, we will say, a ranking soldier whose pay and allowances amount to $1,000 a year, and who is contributing only five per cent, which would be $50, and he has served twenty years. What would the pensions be in the two cases?


Hugues Lapointe: The pension would be twenty-fiftieths of the average of his last six years' pay and allowances. That would be the pension to which he would be entitled upon being retired. Should he die instead of being retired at that particular time the pension which his widow would receive would be one naif of what he would have received, and if there were any children each child would be entitled to one-fifth of the widow's pension up to $300, and if the child were an orphan, up to $600.


George Hugh Castleden: That is, to each child.


Hugues Lapointe: To each child, but in the case of a widow and children the total amount cannot be more than three-quarters of the full pension which the contributor would have received had he been retired instead of dying; and should there be no widow, the total amount received by the children cannot be in excess of what the widow herself could have received.


George Hugh Castleden: A man in receipt of $2,200, who contributes for nine years and then voluntarily retires can receive no more than this gratuity, which is the equivalent of one month's pay for each year?


Hugues Lapointe: Yes, if disabled or compulsorily retired.	[DOT]


George Hugh Castleden: What happens to the contributions of about $1,100 in this case, he has made during the nine years he has been in?


Hugues Lapointe: I have not figured it out, but I am sure his gratuity would be more than the amount he had contributed to the fund. In the case mentioned by the hon. member he would receive a gratuity which would represent about 8-5 per cent, whereas he has contributed either 5, 5J or 6 per cent.


Mr. JAQUES:: 
Hugues Lapointe: I fully appreciate the situation which the hon. member has mentioned. It is quite true that under the proposed legislation, the new part of the act, this officer would probably be pensioned off. At present the statute does not permit of a pension in his case. All I can say is that when he joined the service he knew the conditions as regards both pay and pension, and he joined at a time when the regulations were such that no one could be pensioned before twenty years. Under special circumstances which are indicated in the act and of which he was aware, the officer is entitled to a gratuity of one month's pay per year of service, which would be eleven years, because I do not believe that the four years of Royal Military College service is pensionable service; but he cannot qualify for a pension under the act which legislated in these matters when he enlisted in the service. I shall be glad to have the case looked into, although my hon. friend says that has already been done. I do not know whether I shall be able to help, but if
he will give me the particulars I will see if there is anything that can be done toward helping this particular case. I am afraid that is all I can say.


Norman Jaques: It is probably true that this man enlisted with his eyes open, but a pension is a long time to look forward to. The point I wish to make is that had he retired on his volition this summer it might be different; but he did everything he could to postpone his retirement, because he knew that the act would be amended. It would have meant only another month had he been allowed to remain in the active force for eleven years, and then he would have received the benefits of this act for the rest of his life. As it is now he will receive no benefit, other than a gratuity, which will not help him very much. There may be many others like him. A few years from now this man because of his physical condition, will be unable to do anything for himself. He will have no pension, and will have no way of making a living or supporting his family. I should like to appeal to hon. members of the committee in order that something should be done. I am not saying that this is exactly within the scope of the bill-I do not think it is-but there should be some way of dealing with cases of this kind.


Mr. BENTLEY:: We are dealing with section 6, or are we dealing with the bill paragraph by paragraph?


William Ross Macdonald: Section 6 has been carried, but further consideration is being given to the bill. We are not dealing with the paragraphs as such.


Thomas John Bentley: I have a number of questions on new section 51. Before I deal with this section I should like to say that I heartily concur in what the hon. member has just said, that there should be some practical arrangement made to take care of cases of the kind he mentions.
New section 51 says:
No allowance shall be granted to the widow or any child of a contributor under this part
(a) if the person to whom it is^ proposed to grant the allowance is in the opinion of the treasury board unworthy of it.
The explanatory note reads as follows:
This is similar in principle to subsections (2), (3) and (4) of section 9 of the Civil Service Superannuation Act.
What is the standard of measurement the treasury board uses to decide whether a person is worthy or unworthy?


Hugues Lapointe: I am afraid that I have been given no information as to what the exact standard is to judge whether someone is worthy or unworthy to receive an allowance.
Militia Pension Act


John Oliver Probe: Does it depend on how she dresses?	[DOT]


Hugues Lapointe: I do not think so. I believe the treasury board acts only as a result of investigations made into the circumstances of the particular person, similar to what is done with regard to veterans' allowances, where at times the allowance is taken away from the veteran and given to his wife because it is considered that he is using the money for purposes other than that for which they were given. I understand the same procedure is used here. I doubt very much whether it often happens.


Thomas John Bentley: There would not be a regulation covering it?


Hugues Lapointe: Yes, there would be regulations of the board covering this matter.


John Oliver Probe: As I see it, the actuarial value of a military pension after thirty-five years of service is considerably greater than the pension payable to a civil servant after thirty-five years of service, because a military pensioner may retire at age fifty-five and the civil servant retires at age sixty-five. I believe I am correct in that. Combined with that is the fact that for the purpose of the Militia Pension Act "service" includes service in the civil service. Suppose a man has been in the civil service up to about the age of fifty-two. He then decides that he would like to retire at the age of fifty-five. He says: I will have thirty-five years' service and I shall get a pension ten years longer than otherwise. I presume the parliamentary assistant can explain to the satisfaction of the committee that there is a safeguard which prevents a man from transferring at age fifty or fifty-two from the Department of National Health and Welfare to the Department of National Defence, the permanent force, staying there for a year or two and then getting a full pension because his employment in the civil service is counted in full, as I understand it. That is why I want this cleared up. Can a man transfer from the civil service to the permanent force a year or two before the age of fifty-five, assuming that in the normal course of events he will have thirty-five years' service in the civil service or the permanent forces by virtue of these regulations? What is to safeguard the government from having to pay an extra ten years' pension to a man who can get into the permanent force at that late date?


Hugues Lapointe: I would say the safeguard would be the age set by the army for acceptance of personnel. As my hon. friend knows, the age limit for each rank is much lower than it was. I would say that in the case to which my hon. friend refers the 
individual could not be accepted in any rank in the permanent force because he would be of an age limit higher than the age which is being accepted at the present time. The age limit of the interim army is fifty, and that is for ranks of brigadiers and above.


John Oliver Probe: The point is that there is no opportunity to make a transfer from the civil service. The regulations of the armed forces will be sufficiently rigid to prevent such a juggling of positions for the purpose of securing an earlier pension.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT

[Stage Direction]
Air service-civil aviation division-
_ 483. Airways and airports-construction and improvements including radio facilities

(re-vote $562,200)-captial, $3,837,425.
Mr. HAZEN:: I believe I asked the minister for a breakdown of this item. He said he would get it for me.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. The field services, including a revote of $277,800, amount to $1,664,136; radio-aviation, with a revote of $284,400, amounts to $2,173,290.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: How does Canadair fit into this picture?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is not in this picture. Canadair is owned by the government, through the agency of the Department of Reconstruction. It is operated as a crown plant, under a management contract. There is no vote for Canadair in these estimates.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: But Canadair builds for Trans-Canada Air Lines, does it not?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, it is building planes for Trans-Canada Air Lines, and also for the R.C.A.F. I believe it is also building for other air lines. It is doing a business of building and converting aircraft.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: What is the relationship between the figures for civil aviation on page 58 of the estimates, and those given on page 283 under demobilization and reconversion? Are there two departments? There is one under the heading of administration at page 283, and on page 58, while there is a small item for administration, there is a larger one for salaries and office expenses. Is there just the one organization with these two different amounts of expenses?

Supply-Transport-Air Service


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. The first list of items represents the normal aviation estimates. In other words, it is a continuation of the work carried on by the department prior to and during the war. The reconversion estimates apply to expenses incurred in taking over airports which were formerly military establishments. They have been taken over, and a great number of them are being operated. They are in process of being incorporated into the airways system.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I notice an item of $17,500,000 for purchase of aircraft, under the heading "liquidation of contracts" at page 279 of the estimates. Is that quite apart from or is it related to the civil aviation division?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is a reconstruction item. It has nothing to do with this vote.


George Hugh Castleden: How many airports are affected under this item?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There are some 183 airports of which some forty are affected by this item.


George Hugh Castleden: Do these airports make service charges for aircraft of the R.C.A.F., Trans-Canada Air Lines and Canadian Pacific Air Lines which come in? How are these rates arrived at, and what are they?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Civil aircraft are charged. There are no charges against government-owned aircraft. Or, let us say, there is no charge against the R.C.A.F.; we will put it that way.


George Hugh Castleden: How about T.C.A. and
C.P.A.?


Clarence Decatur Howe: T.C.A. pay for the privilege
of using the airport, usually on a monthly basis. It is $150 a month for the first trip, and $100 for each successive flight in the same day. In other words, if there are six landings of a T.C.A. plane, one would be charged at $150 a month and the succeeding landings at $100 a month.


George Hugh Castleden: And how about Canadian Pacific Air Lines?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The same rates.


George Hugh Castleden: What are private
rates?


Clarence Decatur Howe: They vary according to the
size of the aircraft. Those rates are subject to revision. They are around $1 to $2 per landing, for private aircraft.


George Hugh Castleden: What was the revenue last year in this operation?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The total revenue was
$193,348.64, for the year 1945-46.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Will the minister say a word on this item? Does it mean that to a very large extent we are subsidizing transportation by air? In other words, we are paying an enormous amount of the cost of everyone who flies. First of all, is that correct, and if so, why?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is true that the costs of
operating aviation facilities in the country are greatly in excess of the revenue derived therefrom. A study is being made of ways and means to close the gap, and it is the intention that ultimately it will be closed entirely. 'My hon. friend will appreciate that because of the upset of war, and the transitional period through which we are now passing, there is bound to be a great gap there. Of course, the costs of building airports are capital charges. But it is my hope that the operating expenses can, in time, be covered by revenue from aviation operation.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: What has been the experience or what is the history in countries where air transport has reached a much higher level, or is more greatly advanced? Does it pay its way? I understand that the minister is considering wholly operational charges; he regards invested capital as a contribution.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I suppose the United States
comes closest to covering its operating charges -closer than any other country-but the gap has not been closed there yet. I think most airports in the United States are self-sustaining. The money is chiefly collected at the airports. However, the weather service is for all the citizens. Only part of the expenditure is devoted to aviation. Radio beams are paid for apart from the revenue service.


Mr. KNIGHT:: Will the main line from
Winnipeg to Edmonton be ready to put into operation as soon as the airport at Saskatoon is finished?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The progress on the airport at Saskatoon has been disappointing. We had hoped to have the service in operation early this summer. All the other facilities are ready, and the service will be put in operation as soon as that airport is finished.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: When is it expected that the contract will be completed?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is expected that the airport will be completed sufficiently for use this autumn. I cannot give the exact date, say around November 1.
Supply-Transport-Air Service


Mr. HERRIDGE:: The other day the minister said that consideration was being given to a future policy in connection with municipal airports. In my constituency there are several municipal airports, but I would refer particularly to the Tadanac municipal airport at Columbia Gardens. This airport is not within a municipality but serves a surrounding district. I should like to know if airports like this will receive any consideration.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I stated that because of the large expenditures during the war it was the intention to keep expenditures on municipal airports to the minimum this year, but consideration would be given to working out a future policy for municipal airports.


George Hugh Castleden: How many airports are in the Churchill area and in the Yukon and
northwest territories?


Clarence Decatur Howe: In the Churchill area we have an airport at Churchill and one at The Pas. I have not the number for the northwest territories, but there is a chain of airports known as the northwest staging route. There is also a series of airports down the Mackenzie river. For example, there are airports at Fort St. John, Fort Smith, Smith river, Grande Prairie, Watson lake, Whitehorse and Edmonton.


Mr. MacNICOL:: And Dawson?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is operated by the Department of Mines and Resources; it is not part of this system.


George Hugh Castleden: Are those airports all completed?


Clarence Decatur Howe: They are all completed.


George Hugh Castleden: Are they used principally by Canadian planes, or by others as well? I understand Standard Oil is carrying on work in that area. What would be the rate charged to planes of the Standard Oil that might use these airports?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I know of no Standard Oil operations in that area, and I know of no Standard Oil planes operating there. If they did come in they would be charged the rate for itinerant planes.


Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: Is it intended to enlarge the Malton airport to handle larger ships, or is it large enough for all practical purposes?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The area of. the Malton airport is quite sufficient for all types of traffic, but a project is under way to lengthen the runways to take four-engine traffic, and we hope to have that completed this autumn.
[Mr. lloue.J


Douglas Gooderham Ross: What length of runway will be required?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Between five and six thousand feet.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Is that all they are at Malton?


Clarence Decatur Howe: They are about 4,000 feet to-day, and we intend ot lengthen them to at least 5,000 feet.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Are not the runways in the northwest staging route at Fort St. John, Fort Nelson, Watson lake and Whitehorse
10,000	feet in length?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Those were built for the heavy traffic of the American B-29's, and the longest runway is 6,000 feet.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Is anything contemplated in connection with the de Havil-land airport?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. That airport is being passed to the R.C.A.F. as a base for a squadron.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Air service-civil aviation division-
437.	Grants for advanced aeronautical instruction and to aeroplane clubs, including grant of $5,000 to the Canadian Flying Clubs Association, $33,000.
George Hugh Castleden: What was the distribution of this vote last year?


Clarence Decatur Howe: 
[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Air service-meteorological division-
438.	Meteorological service, $581,300.
Douglas Gooderham Ross: Can the minister give an estimate of the total cost of the meteorological service of Canada?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The present cost of the service is about $3,500,000 per year. What it will be, I do not know.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Surely there is some plan in contemplation. People are a little critical about the amount of money being spent on these meteorological services as compared with the amount spent previously. .

Supply-Transport-Air Service


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend says he is a little critical, but I am more critical. Facilities were greatly enlarged during the war. Stations were built in the north and in Newfoundland, and the services throughout Canada were enlarged to take care of the military airdromes. The greater frequency of service on the airways made it necessary to enlarge the staffs there. Radio-sonde is a new and expensive development which involves the sending up of balloons equipped with radio in order to obtain details of weather conditions at the higher strata of the atmosphere. All in all we are giving a vastly better weather service than before the war, and a vastly more expensive service. I am endeavouring to find out to what extent the cost can be reduced. This estimate is about the war time level, but I hope to be able to present estimates in the future that will show a reduction.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Is there any way other than by going through all the estimates and picking out items here and there by which we can get the full cost of the meteorological service, so that we can form a judgment upon it? Is there available anywhere a full statement and breakdown of the cost?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is no single vote covering everything, but the cost can be found by adding three figures together-the normal aviation figure, the reconversion figure, and the figure in the supplementary estimates. Another reason for the cost being greatly in excess of pre-war is aviation across the ocean. The expenditure on transatlantic aviation is very heavy indeed. It is not stabilized as yet, but is is hoped that the cost of operating can be stabilized within the next year, so that a better picture of the cost can be shown than is the case to-day. Canada is responsible for the transatlantic service, as regards both Canada and Newfoundland, and the cost is a heavy item.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Is there an arrangement by which the United States and other countries share the cost of the meteorological service?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. In the war Canada
assumed responsibility for weather services across the north Atlantic to the extent of facilities in Canada and Newfoundland. PICAO is studying a fair allocation of the cost of all weather services between all users, and if Canada is paying more than her share we shall be compensated for any surplus, and if we are paying less than our share we shall be charged accordingly.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I would ask the minister if he does not think it would be reasonable in future to have a statement compiled showing the full cost of the meteorological service so that we could judge it intelligently. I am not going to waste more time on that now.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Next year there will be only two sets of items, in the main estimates and in the supplementaries. This year there are three, because the treasury board believed that a year of transition was necessary for it to be able to measure the expenditure properly. That is, the direct peace time expenditures can be shown against earlier peace time expenditures, and the transition expenditures can be shown against the war expenditures. The supplementary items are over and above anything contemplated when the main estimates were prepared. This is the last year for transition estimates.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Does the minister not think that the part of the cost of the meteorological service which is attributable to the air service should be shown as part of the cost of the air service, so that we might know what all the costs were for the air service?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The cost of the aviation
meteorological service is included in the aviation estimates, but the Department of Transport pays the whole cost of meteorological services for all purposes, including the weather service to farmers, to fishermen and to all parts of Canada.


Grote Stirling: Is the information which is collected from the government meteorological stations sent to one particular place, such as the observatory, for compilation and transmission?


Clarence Decatur Howe: All the weather services are put on the teletype, which goes to every station in Canada. We have local forecasting centres which take such teletype information as is of value to them. The information that is collected from the weather observation stations is sent to all parts of Canada and the United States; similarly we get on our teletypes in Canada all the information that is collected in the-Uni ted States.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Air service-radio division-
HO. Administration of the Radiotelegraph Act and regulations, $169,200.
John Ritchie MacNicol: There is a slight increase in this item. Does that mean that another station is being added? I do not suppose it

Supply-Transport-Air Service
does. This is one item that the department could safely increase, because it gives the far north a marvellous service.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The Radiotelegraph Act is
the act for policing all the airways. It allocates all frequencies, and establishes the rules of the air as they affect radio and radio broadcasting. The increase is caused by statutory increases.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Air service-radio division-
If 'tt. Radio direction finding stations, radio beacons and radiotelegraph stations, operation and maintenance, $860,800.
James MacKerras Macdonnell: What is the reason for this substantial increase? Being a non-teehnical man I should have thought that with the ending of the war the stations would have had less work to do.


Clarence Decatur Howe: These stations are an aid to navigation. Additional stations are being installed. These stations are operated on a twenty-four hour basis, so that the cost of operating them is fairly well fixed. The increase is caused by taking over more stations.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: You have new stations on the great lakes?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No new stations have been established there recently, but new stations are added from time to time on the great lakes.


Douglas King Hazen: At page 245 of the estimates the last item but one is "contracts." Above that is "freight express and cartage," and "repairs to buildings and equipment." What kinds of contracts are these?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The department has had a contract for years with Canadian Marconi, which operates certain stations on the east coast and the great lakes. Instead of manning these stations with civil servants they are manned through a contract with the Marconi Company.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Does this item include the beam service for transcontinental airways?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Under what item does that come? Is there a beam service on the far northern routes?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is under item 435, for 51,100,000.


Agar Rodney Adamson: How far does the beam extend? Does it go up to Yellowknife?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is a beam from Edmonton to Whitehorse, and a beam being installed at Yellowknife. Yellowknife is the end of the beam.
[Mr. MacNicol.l


John Ritchie MacNicol: It does not go to Norman Wells, though.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Mr. ARCHIBALD:: I have had representations, and I believe the minister has, from civic bodies at Smithers asking for repeater stations there to cut out a lot of interference with their reception of radio. It is a widely scattered area, and they have very poor reception. They have been constantly asking for repeater stations. Is there any hope of these people in central British Columbia getting that service?


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend refers to a matter which comes under the jurisdiction of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. He is referring to a repeater station for broadcasting. It is a matter of policy for the broadcasting station as to whether a repeater station will 'be installed there or not; and I assume that the matter of funds is also for the C.B.C.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Air service-radio division-
*H®. Suppression of local electrical interferences, $265,850.
James MacKerras Macdonnell: Does this mean that the government, not content with controlling human beings, is now controlling the forces of nature? If so, how far does it go?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This item provides services for suppressing interference with radio. As my hon. friend is aware, there are a good many appliances which can make radio reception in a community very bad indeed. H complaints are received, the officers operating under this vote have a car which is equipped to track down radio interference; an examination is made and the interference detected and orders issued that the interference shall be removed. However, it is under this vote that these radio licences are collected for the C.B.C.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: How do we keep the two departments separate? There is first of all the administration of the Radiotelegraph Act, then there is radio direction finding stations; then, suppression of local interferences; and also the issue of radio licences. Are these items kept separate, or do they go together?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The two services are operated by the same staff. That is why I thought the one vote covered both. But there was a separation of the services-the cost of collecting radio licences being separated from the cost of removing interference with radio reception. This is owing to the fact that it has

Supply-Transport-Air Service
been, the practice to bill the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation with the cost of doing away with interference to radio reception.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: The two things really go together?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is the same organization.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: As I have pointed out before, the cost of collection of radio licences of $4,200,000 amounts to $527,000. It is a nuisance to the people concerned.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The cost of collecting radio licences in Canada is lower than in any other country we know of; it is about twelve or thirteen per cent of the amount collected. I believe that the last time I saw the figures the cost of collection in England was about twenty-eight per cent of the total received.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: To carry it to its logical conclusion we should tax each radio receiving set. The man who has ten sets should not have to pay only $2.50 if the man who has only one set pays $2.50. Also it seems to me that there should be some other basis of collection. There is no equity in the way it is done now. There is no more reason for taxing the fellow who has a radio set than there is, as my colleague said the other night, for taxing the man who has a washing machine, or something of the kind. I cannot see any economy about a system which costs $527,000 for collection and which, further, has no real principle as a basis of collection.


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend will recall
that at one time we did attempt to collect on a separate licence for each individual receiving set, but we found there was absojutely no way to check the number of receiving sets in a house, and we had to depend solely on the honour system. I may say that the honour system was so disappointing that we decided to make honest men of a great many people by going back to the principle of one licence for one house. I think the contention is that one can only listen to one set at a time, and that it is the same music whether you have one set or six, so there is a certain justice in making the charge for the broadcasting services of the country so much per household instead of so much per radio set.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Why not so much per listener?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Well, you could do that.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: One person may
have a radio set to which others will listen. There is no rhyme or reason in having a plan
for the collection of money when the money can be obtained at much less cost from the consolidated revenue fund of Canada.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I should like to ask
three questions. I gather from what has passed between the minister and the hon. member for St. Paul's that the questions may have been put already. How many receiving stations are there in Canada, including those installed in motor cars; what revenue is received from them; and how much does it cost to collect the revenue?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I can give the hon. member that information in compact form. During the fiscal year 1945-46 which terminated on March 31 last a total of 1,754,351 receiving licences were issued, resulting in a gross revenue of $4,260,379.14. From that latter amount must be deducted total commissions paid, of $295,775.90, and the cost of administration, $231,818.48, leaving a balance of cash to be turned over to the broadcasting corporation of $3,732,784.76 in respect of receiving licences. In addition to the moneys from commercial broadcasting station licences, an amount of $40,500, being the fees accruing from the issue of private commercial broadcasting station licences, will also be turned over to the C.B.C.


Mr. SINCLAIR (Vancouver North):: The minister mentioned the amount paid in commissions for the sale of these licences. Last year when I was home one of these men making the house to house canvass came to collect the licence fee and I paid it gladly. My neighbour, when paying his, asked the man where he came from, whether he was a veteran, what experience he had had in such matters, and I found to my surprise that this man who was selling licences on behalf of the government was, to begin with, not a veteran, that he did not even live in the constituency in which he was selling licences, and was very uncertain as to how much he received from the sale. Since the government is so anxious to provide employment for veterans, I would ask the minister first of all how these house to house canvassers are employed, whether they need be veterans, whether they are required to be residents of the locality in which they collect the licence fees, which obviously would be helpful since they would know the district, the streets and the area; and finally whether there is a veteran's preference in connection with the house to house sale of radio licences.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There has always been a veteran's preference in these appointments. The appointments are recommended by the

Supply-Transport-Air Service
district office of the department and are managed by that office. It is not a very attractive job. It pays twenty-five cents per licence, but the difficulty is that if the man calls on you and suggests that you buy the licence from him, you have the option of going to your post office and getting it there.


James Sinclair: But they ask to see your licence, and of course, everyone who has not a licence buys one. That is a way to make money.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is not bad for a month or two, but we expect these men to stay with the job to the bitter end, taking not only the flush period that comes around the first of April but also the dull period around the first of November when practically everyone has already bought a licence and it is merely a matter of cleaning up. '


Mr. GOLDING:: In my constituency the Legion makes the recommendation.


James Sinclair: I hope that practice will extend to the riding of Vancouver North and that the Legion will recommend the appointment and not someone in some other constituency.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Some time ago the practice was established by the department of accepting a recommendation from a member of the Legion. It is not an attractive job, as I have said.


James Sinclair: Any ob is better than no job at all.


William Henry Golding: One of our members, who is not at present here, is interested in the method of insuring, as far as the C.B.C. is concerned. What companies carry insurance for C.B.C., and how is the insurance distributed?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The matter of C.B.C. insurance appertains to another department of government.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Has the minister the figures for prosecutions for non-payment of radio licence fees?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The total for the year 1945-46 was 8,749 convictions.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The minister said that if there was any interference, all a person had to do was to put in a complaint. To whom do they complain?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The district inspector of radio for the locality.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Is that in the Department of Fisheries?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, Transport.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Is it not a fisheries truck that is used?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, a transport truck equipped for the purpose.


Thomas John Bentley: How many years does the department consider it reasonable for a radio owner to wait until interference is checked?


Clarence Decatur Howe: If he had to wait years he would get, used to the interference.


Thomas John Bentley: That is what we have been doing.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We try to give prompt service.


Mr. CAMPBELL:: In connection with the question of interference, there are many electrical appliances that are .sold without condensers. I refer particularly to the electric razor. In the last few months quite a number of these razors have been sold, and the moment one is turned on there is interference with all the radios in the block. I suggest that the electric appliance people be compelled to equip these appliances with proper condensers before they are sold.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The Department of Transport is particularly concerned about the electric razor situation, and discussions are going on with the provincial authorities to endeavour to set up standards which will do away with the interference. We are working on that and hope to get a razor that will cause less interference.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The minister said that a transport truck was used to check up on interference. I understand that at Perth, it is a marine and fisheries truck that is used. Is that right?


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend is thinking of the old department of marine and fisheries, which existed up to 1936. Perhaps they have not changed the name on the truck but that department disappeared in that year and became the Department of Transport.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: They still have "Marine
and Fisheries" on the truck.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That truck may be retired one of these days.


Mr. McKAY:: I believe the minister
indicated that there was a 25-ce.nt commission allowed the house to house canvassers, but he did not say what commission is allowed the postmaster.

Supply-Transport-Air Service


Clarence Decatur Howe: The amount allowed canvassers is 25 cents; staff post offices, 5 cents; accounting post offices, 15 cents; radio dealers 15 cents; banks, 15 cents; R.C.M.P. 25 cents.


Mr. FERGUSON:: The law would seem to be objectionable when you have 8,000 convictions. The department is trying to enforce the law and it costs us over half a million dollars to collect a little over four millions. I should think the government would endeavour to collect that amount in some other manner which would not necessitate the prosecution of 8,000 Canadian citizens annually. Apparently prosecutions under this method are necessary. Is it not possible to devise some other method of collecting this money, which seems to be needed, and collecting it with less difficulty and far less inconvenience to the public?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I shall be very glad to receive suggestions. The matter is studied every year, and no country in the world has succeeded in collecting at lower costs. I can assure my hon. friend that if prosecution stopped collections would rapidly drop.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: I realize that collecting would be necessary, but it does appear that the service must be irritating since it is somewhat similar to the Ontario Temperance Act which was unpopular and unnecessary.


Mr. HANSELL:: We seem to be dealing with two items. Item 442 deals with suppression of local electrical interferences. Has that item been carried? If so, I should like to ask a question on item 443.


William Ross Macdonald: We should first of all carry item 442.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Air services-radio division
[Stage Direction]
US. Issue of radio receiving licences-(transport department only), $223,515.
Ernest George Hansell: I should like to know why this amount is $223,515 when the department will require more than that, although I do not know that I am willing to vote more than that. The position is that if the amendment to the broadcasting act is passed this session, which I hope it is not-


John Ritchie MacNicol: Everybody hopes the same thing.


Ernest George Hansell: The position will be that the Department of Transport, which has been receiving over half a million dollars in collection fees, will not receive that amount in the coming year. If they are to continue the collecting of fees and pay the expenses connected therewith, instead of needing the appropriation of nearly a quarter of a million they will need three-quarters of a million. I do not see anything in the supplementary estimates which would indicate that they will receive that amount. How are they to get this extra half million?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This item covers the cost of collections to the department, but it does not cover the commissions which are deducted by the collecting agencies. In other words, the funds paid over by the collecting agencies are paid with the commissions deducted. About $290,000 of commissions are deducted from the fees themselves. If the new bill passes, in order to square with the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, it will be necessary to enlarge this vote by about $290,000 to cover the commissions which are paid to post offices, banks, dealers and private individuals who are assigned to the job of collecting radio licence fees.


Ernest George Hansell: Why does the minister give the amount which he just mentioned when the amount turned over to the corporation last year was $527,000 odd? There is very little difference in the amount we are asked to vote for 1946-47 from the amount we voted for 1945-46; yet the department turned over to the C.B.C. only $500,000. The figures do not jibe.


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend does not mean "turned over"; he means held back from the gross receipts of radio licences.


Ernest George Hansell: Which they will not now be able to hold back.


Clarence Decatur Howe: If the bill passes they will not. We may have a further supplementary estimate at the end of the year to make up the difference. At the moment we are not obligated to pay to the C.B.C. any more than the net of the collections. There will be an item for perhaps $100,000 which we shall have to vote as a further supplementary payment before the end of the fiscal year.


Ernest George Hansell: The committee should know that this involves an additional taxation of the people to the extent of half a million dollars.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is right.


Mr. LENNARD:: A few moments ago the minister said that he would like suggestions as to other methods of collecting the necessary radio licence fees. I think it was about eight years ago that on a similar item in committee I made a suggestion to tax radios at their source. In other words, when a new radio is sold a tax of $10, $15 or $20 should be put on it. Then there would be no further
Supply-Transport-Air Service

taxes; there would be no collection fees. At the present time I dioubt whether half the radios in the country are paying taxes in the form of yearly fees. If the minister adopted my suggestion he would save half a million dollars which it costs to collect these fees regularly; he would have the taxes and the people would not be bothered from year to year with this nuisance tax.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That was considered some years ago, probably on the suggestion of my hon. friend, but it was found to be undesirable. It would mean an excise tax on the sale of radios. It was recommended against at the time. Perhaps it could be reconsidered when the matter is again up for consideration.


George Hugh Castleden: I should like to offer a
suggestion. Since this extra cost to the Canadian people comes out of the people who are negligent in buying their operating licences, if after thirty days a person were charged a double fee or perhaps a triple fee for their licences it might save the people of Canada a great deal of money. In that way the people who are delinquent are the ones who would pay the bill.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The fines collected are usually more than triple the cost of the licences. As a matter of fact the co9t of prosecutions is more than covered by the fines collected.


George Hugh Castleden: Would it not be possible to increase the licence fee if the licence were not bought within a certain date? Is it not possible to impose penalties such as are imposed if one does not pay his water or light bill?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The probabilities are that the people who are willing to take a chance on being prosecuted when the fee is $2.50 would be equally willing to take a chance on being prosecuted if the fee were $5.


George Hugh Castleden: It is worth looking into.


Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: My understanding is that where a battery set is used the licence fee is reduced. There are places where electricity is supplied for only a certain period of the day. In my district particularly, it is supplied from six o'clock in the evening on. Some people think they should be given the same consideration as owners of battery sets, and I agree with them. In my district the Canadian Pacific Railway Company with its usual generosity supplies electricity only from six o'clock at night to six o'clock in the morning. I believe the people in that district should have the same consideration as owners of 
battery sets. I took the matter up with the department and it received official recognition by an official in the department. I was given to understand in writing that my suggestion would be put into effect. Later on, some other official had the idea that it should not be put into effect and he cancelled the previous order. It was embarrassing to a member of parliament. On receipt of the letter from the first official I sent out the information to my constituents telling them that it would be done. Then the other official cancelled it, and as that happened: in June a year ago it was most embarrassing to me. I suggest to the minister that it is a reasonable request, particularly in places where power is supplied, as in this particular instance, only from six o'clock at night to six o'clock in the morning. These people should have the same consideration as the owners of battery sets; it would mean a reduction of only fifty cents, as I understand it.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There are only two classes of licences. There is the licence for a set which is designed to use electric current, and which costs $2.50, and the licence for a set which is designed to use batteries, which is $2. I presume that the rate of licence fee depends on whether it is a set designed to use electricity from the mains or one designed to use batteries. It is pretty hard to make other classes for places where the current is on for only certain hours of the day. I hardly think that would be possible.


George Alexander Cruickshank: With all respect to the minister, I disagree with him. I cannot see why, when the power is used only at certain hours of the day by the company which is licensed by the minister's department, it should be so difficult. It is producing power between six o'clock in the evening and six in the morning. When I say this I am referring to North Bend, British Columbia. I cannot see why it should be so difficult, at all, when the power is not for sale on a twenty-four-hour basis.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It seems to me that it would be better all round for the citizens of North Bend if they would get battery sets. Then they could get radio reception twenty-four hours in the day and pay a $2 fee.


George Alexander Cruickshank: For the benefit of the Minister of Reconstruction, let me say that the citizens in Fraser Valley riding are not going to go back to the horse-and-buggy days for the C.P.R., or for anybody else.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Is the minister responsible for the introduction of frequency modulation in Canada?

Supply-Transport-Air Service


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is a matter for the Canadian Broadeasting Corporation.


Agar Rodney Adamson: And that is also true of television and short wave stations.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Agar Rodney Adamson: It is not under the minister's jurisdiction, at all?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The policy is not; but the actual licensing is under this department. This department is responsible for the administration of radio telegraph communications. In other words, my hon. friend could not put in a frequency modulation broadcasting station unless he had a licence from the Department of Transport. The Department of Transport would issue the licence only on the recommendation of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, which is in charge of policy in all broadcasting matters.


Mr. SMITH (Calgaiy West):: The minister has raised a most important point. Why is this under his department? I cannot figure it out at all as to why they are separate.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There are many more uses for radio channels in the air, in other branches of communication, than there are in connection with radio broadcasting. Radio broadcasting is but a small band in the radio spectrum, whereas there are very large bands used for other purposes. It is necessary that all bands of the spectrum be controlled by one department. That is to prevent encroachment from one band to another. For example, there is far more radio used in connection with radio beams than in connection with broadcasting. For that reason, and on account of the international aspects of the policing of the radio airways, it is under one act called the Radio Act. That act is administered by the Department of Transport which is, by far, the largest user of the airways.


Arthur Leroy Smith: I understand that fully. I think what the minister is saying is an argument in favour of what I was saying.


Clarence Decatur Howe: They are administered by one department. Is the hon. member referring to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation?


Arthur Leroy Smith: The whole thing.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It was originally in our department, but it is now in another department. I think it makes very little difference.


Arthur Leroy Smith: It was separated during the war. Why is it not put back again?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is no particular reason for it.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I should like to mention one more thing with which I disagree. I believe registration comes under the jurisdiction of this act?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, the Radio Act.


George Alexander Cruickshank: In connection with the collection of licences, we had a man appointed to make collections for the entire district. For instance, I have in mind the Chilliwack district. Then, for some unknown reason, the minister's department abandoned that idea, and collections were made through the post office. The department has not collected as much in that district as it did before. It was all very fine for it to say that it wanted to help the veterans. But the veterans are not interested in it, I understand, because they have to buy a book of so many licences and prepay the charges. Then the department reimburses them. In the Chilliwack district there was an excellent collection of licences made when- there was a regional collector, and one man collected for the entire area. Then, because Doctor Frigon or somebody else wrote a letter that idea was rejected. I want to know why the minister rejected that system of making collections where, certainly in British Columbia, he collected far more licence fees than he is collecting at the present time.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I should like to support the hon. member for Fraser Valley. Exactly the same condition prevails in my own constituency. I suggest to the minister that if he wishes to give jobs to veterans he should cut out the post office collection, and give the men a territory, as they had it before, so that they could make a living out of it.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The difficulty in connection with cutting out collection agencies is that we compel people by law to pay a broadcasting fee. If we are going to do that we think there must be ways and means through which a private individual would be able to comply with the law. If we are depending entirely upon a collector, we must depend upon the collector calling upon an individual persistently until the licence fee is paid.


George Alexander Cruickshank: No.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The individual must be able to find a place where he can pay the fee at any time which suits him within the period in which payments are due. Whether we have collectors in the country districts depends entirely upon whether we get results from them. A study has been made, and we find that collectors do well in the cities, and that
5386	COMMONS
Supply-Demobilization-Air Service
collections are improved by having the collectors. In. the country districts, generally speaking, we find there is frequently not sufficient revenue to warrant a collector doing the job he should do. In many country districts we have found it better, from the viewpoint of the department, not to depend entirely upon the collectors.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Would the minister get the figures for me because, so far as my district is concerned, I dispute what he says. I am afraid the officials back here in Ottawa are thinking purely in terms of West Ottawa, or some of these districts in Ottawa where one can either get on a street car or walk up town. But that is not true in the rural districts. I defy the minister to show me anywhere in my district where he is able to get collectors for the fee he pays at the present time. The figures in his own department will show, as they were submitted to me, that we doubled our collections when we had the individual process. I believe that is universal in all rural parts of Canada, so far as I know. Why the department changed, I cannot say.
One of the highlights of this session, so far as I was concerned, was the other day when for the first time in the House of Commons a minister admitted he was wrong. I should think that might be so in this instance. The minister should admit, he was wrong, and change the system. If the officials do not want to change it, then let him fire the officials and put some in who will make the necessary change.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Why will the Department of Transport not allow into Canada tank receiver and transmitter sets? I ask this question, because War Assets Corporation have sold many of these sets in Cajiada.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There has been no effort to keep tank receiver sets out of Canada. But it so happens that they cannot be used on Canadian wave lengths. They are all built specially for the military type wave length. They would be quite useless in Canada. However, if anyone widies to bring one in, he may bring it in.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I am glad to hear the minister say that, that anyone may bring one in.
I have in mind a man in Peterborough who wrote to me in this connection, and stated he had been refused permission to bring one in, although he had ordered it in the United States and paid for it. In my letter to the department I mentioned the fact that this man wanted the set only for instructional purposes in the armouries. The official in the Depart-

ment of Transport said that he could not get it in and the customs said he could not get it in. Then he tried to send it back to the United States and they would not take it. It is now half-way between, and the man is out his money despite the fact that War Assets have sold a great number of these sets in Canada.


Clarence Decatur Howe: My officer who knows about these matters simply advised the customs that there was no purpose in this man bringing it in because it could not be operated with the frequencies we have in Canada. If he wishes to bring it in we will make sure that he is able to do so, because there is no law that prevents him.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: This man has been trying to get it in for months. The last letter I have from the United States is dated July 16, which was three or four months after he came back.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Take it up again with the customs.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Demobilization and reconversion-air service

civil aviation division-airways and airports-
628. Construction and improvements, including radio facilities, capital, $8,163,000.
Gordon Knapman Fraser: Just what does this cover?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This is to provide for the construction and improvement of air fields a'nd radio services. There is an item of $600,000 for administration. Then Edmonton-Winni-peg route, $2,186,000, chiefly for the airport at Saskatoon and certain radio beams. Then the main T.C.A. route, $1,155,300. Then the great lakes route, which is the route from Toronto to Winnipeg, $1,993,400, and the Mackenzie river route, $391,000. There is also the Mont-real-Goose Bay route, $144,000, and the Malton-Windsor route, $163,000.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: What is covered in connection with each route?


Clarence Decatur Howe: These are capital construction expenditures for airports and radio ranges on the route.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: And the layout of fields?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, everything.


George Hugh Castleden: 
Clarence Decatur Howe: It is government policy to own and operate all radio facilities and all weather services. There are two classes of fields, those built and owned and operated by the government and those built by municipalities with government assistance and operated by the municipalities. In order to discuss policy, it would be necessary to find out the particular field the hon. member has in mind.


George Hugh Castleden: How many stations are on the Edmonton-Winnipeg route?


John Ritchie MacNicol: We had that before.


George Hugh Castleden: Then there is what is called the main route, $1,828,000; I presume that is the Trans-Canada route?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The only two airports affected by this vote are Saskatoon, where we are expending $1,606,000 on the airport and $80,000 for lighting and power, and Winnipeg, where we are expending $460,000 for the airfield and building construction and $40,000 for lighting and power.


George Hugh Castleden: What airfields are being established to serve mining in isolated districts?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not seem to have that information in detail, but there is one airfield at Red Lake, there is one at Chibouvamau and I believe there are three or four more in remote areas. There is one at Lac La Biche.


George Hugh Castleden: Would the minister allow this item to stand until he is able to give us complete information with regard to these airfields in remote areas?


Clarence Decatur Howe: All right.


Agar Rodney Adamson: When two or three air lines use an airport operated by the Department of Transport what is the basis of the charges made? Take Regina, for instance, which is used by the C.P.A.L., the T.C.A. and an American airline; on what basis are charges made, on a cost basis, on a per ton basis or on an annual basis?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I gave that information earlier this afternoon. An air line using a field is charged $150 a month for the first daily flight and $100 a month for each succeeding flight. Then there is the scale of prices for itinerant planes on a weight basis.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Demobilization and reconversion-air service- civil aviation division-
6S1. Radio aviation services, $1,625,000.
George Hugh Castleden: How does this item
differ from item 441 under the radio division? What does this item take in?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This covers the operating of the radio facilities, whereas the other item was a capital item.


George Hugh Castleden: I think we should
have a breakdown of this item. I notice in the details we have temporary assistance, $805,975. On page 283 of the estimates there is an item of $805,975 for temporary assistance but no details are given of how many persons that covers or what their work is.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Those are radio operators and diesel operators. They were taken on as temporaries for war purposes, as contrasted with the operators under the civil vote.


George Hugh Castleden: How many are there
of them?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There are 425 personnel, of
whom 370 are radio operators.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Demobilization and reconversion-civil aviation division
[Stage Direction]
633. Care, operation and maintenance of Royal Canadian Air Force airfields transferred to the Department of Transport, $275,000.
George Hugh Castleden: What airfields have
been taken over? Have they been declared surplus and are they awaiting disposal?


Clarence Decatur Howe: They have been taken over
by the Department of Transport from the R.C.A.F. No disposition has yet been made of them. Some may be returned to. their pre-war use and others incorporated in the airways. At the moment they are simply in the custody of the department, under care and maintenance.


George Hugh Castleden: Can the minister give the names of these stations?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There are 180 of them. Does my hon. friend want them all?


George Hugh Castleden: I was particularly interested in the ones in Saskatchewan.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The ones in Saskatchewan
are at Assiniboia, Boharm, Brada, Brora, Burdick, Buttress, Caron, Chandler, Davidson West, Hagen, Halbrite, Hamlin, Lethburn, Osier, Outram, Ralph, Rhein, St. Aldwyn, Vanscoy and Wymark. These have been declared surplus. They are mostly fields used to relieve the larger airfields.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Supply-Demobilization-Radio
[Stage Direction]
Demobilization and reconversion-civil aviation division-
635. North East (Crimson) staging route- maintenance of airfields, $65,000.
Agar Rodney Adamson: Is this the route from Goose Bay or the route to Churchill?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There are three stations on the route, Le Pas, Churchill and Southampton island, and from there to Blooie East and Blooie West and Iceland.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Has it been in operation?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is in operation as far as the Canadian bases are concerned, but the route is very little used.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Demobilization and reconversion-radio division-
638. Radio direction finding stations, radio beacons and radiotelegraph stations-Operation and maintenance, $226,565.
Agar Rodney Adamson: Is this the item under which the radio beam for the air service comes?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This covers beams for the marine service. It is the same appropriation that we discussed under the other item.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Demobilization and reconversion-civil aviation division-
628. Airways and airports-construction and improvements, including radio facilities, capital, $8,163,000.
Clarence Decatur Howe: Surveys were undertaken in 1945 at Red Lake and Cliibougamau, and construction work at both points to serve the mining districts will be under way this year. Provision has been made for certain other airports in other remote areas, one at Lac La Biehe, which will be charged to this vote.


Agar Rodney Adamson: How are you getting on with the one at Red Lake? Is it under construction and when will it be completed?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is under construction. I cannot say how we are getting on.


Mr. NICHOLSON:: How about Saskatoon?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We hope to get Saskatoon in operation late this year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
344. Office of the coal controller-Payments in connection with the movements of coal under conditions prescribed by the governor in council. $4,500,060.
["That is not a matter which comes within the air force, that is under the Department of Labour, and anything like that would have to be arranged by that department.\nItem stands.\nProgress reported.\nIt being ten minutes after eleven o'clock, the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.\nTuesday August 27, 1946"]
Harry Grenfell Archibald: I have had correspondence with Telkwa Collieries. Seemingly they cannot ship coal from there to Vancouver

at the same rate as that at which it can be shipped from Edmonton to Vancouver. Is there any way in which they could be given the same subsidy on freight as the Alberta collieries.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not understand the first point my hon. friend made. There is a subsidy on Alberta coal moving to British Columbia.


Harry Grenfell Archibald: It is by way of a freight subsidy, is it not?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Harry Grenfell Archibald: The Telkwa Collieries, between Prince George and Prince Rupert in British Columbia, do not get in on that. They are "behind the eight-ball' in that respect.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is no subsidy on movements of coal within British Columbia.


Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: Under this item I wish to ask the minister what progress is being made in completing the royal commission report on the inquiry into the coal and fuel requirements of Canada, production, importation and consumption. I should also like a statement from the minister with respect to the present situation as regards Caandian requirements for 1946-47; and also as to the subsidies being paid for the production of coal in Canada at the present time, particularly eastern Canada. I should like the minister to make what statement he is prepared to make about the whole coal situation as it affects eastern Canada.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Justice McLaurin, a member of the royal commission, assured me that the writing of the report is well under way and that it will be in the hands of the government within the next two months.
The coal situation as far as eastern Canada is concerned is far from good. Bituminous coal is coming in from the United States fairly well at the moment, but we have had serious interruptions. Between the coal strike in the United States and the shipping strike on the great lakes we lost some six or seven weeks of shipments; and while the shipments are coming in now at better than normal rates, the deficiency in bituminous coal has by no means been made up. However, we hope that by continuing shipments up to the close of navigation we shall have enough coal in eastern Canada to carry industry through the winter. The situation in connection with industrial coal is much better than the situation in connection with domestic coal. In

Supply-Demobilization
domestic coal we hope to have about sixty-five per cent of our total requirements by the end of November, and prospects are that after that we shall have to depend on hand-to-mouth shipments and on coke which we can take away from our steel operations. The situation is by no means clear. We have undertaken a movement of coal from Alberta, which is helping out to some extent, but there is a serious deficiency in imported coke. Some is available this year, whereas last year we imported about 1,300,000 tons from the United States. This year we are importing less than half that amount from the United States for the reason that we are unable to buy coke in greater quantities from that country. Supplies of anthracite compare fairly well with the supplies last year. It is the serious decline from 1,300,000 tons of coke which is causing us worry. Just how we shall overcome it I am not sure. However, we shall keep fighting as long as the requirement exists.


Percy Chapman Black: Would the minister make a statement as regards the present rate of shipment of coal from Nova Scotia to central Canada? Those of us who were concerned with the securing of this market in central Canada for our surplus production, some fifteen or eighteen years ago, in Nova Scotia are very much concerned and disappointed regarding the volume of coal available for use in. central Canada. At that time we aimed at a million, a million and a half or two million tons annually exported from Nova Scotia to central Canada. During the war years we realized that the local demands had increased greatly in the maritime provinces, and for bunker coal as well, and we could understand why there was a curtailment of shipments to central Canada. We secured this market after great effort and with the sympathetic consideration of the people in central Canada, and we hoped to hold this market, once gained, for future years. I for one was hopeful that the people of Nova Scotia would respond to the requirement in central Canada and make special efforts to supply it, I may say that in our efforts over the years the master mind in this part of Canada was Mr. Frank Neate, who had a thorough understanding of the markets, the quality of the coal, our capacity to produce the cost of trans-portating, and, I might say, the obligation upon the people in Nova Scotia to supply these markets. Some weeks ago the minister gave me a statement that he was fearful that thf total supply from Nova Scotia for shipment to central Canada in the current year would not exceed 350,000 tons. That was a 63260-339
great disappointment to me, for I had hoped that Nova Scotia would be able to supply a much greater quantity. Is the minister prepared to make a more complete and up-to-date statement at the present time?


Clarence Decatur Howe: WTe shall be very glad to move up the St. Lawrence every ton of coal which Nova Scotia will produce this year. Unfortunately, for the last several years the maritime provinces have not been able to take care of their own requirements. Last year we moved half a million tons up the St. Lawrence, but we had to ship more than that into the maritimes from United'. States sources. I do not think the prospect this year will be very much different; I expect it will be about the same as last year. On balance, the three maritime provinces have no coal surplus to their requirements. The fact is that imports would be necessary if they kept all their coal, but in the natural course of trade a certain amount is shipped up the St. Lawrence and replaced by United States coal.


Percy Chapman Black: Is the minister prepared to make a statement as to the amount of subsidies paid the different producers of coal in Nova Scotia in the current year, and if those subsidies are still being earned and still being paid? I should like a detailed statement if the figures are available, but if the minister does not wish to give them publicity at this time I shall not press for the information.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The production subsidies for coal in Nova Scotia last year were about eight million dollars.	*


Percy Chapman Black: What would the amount be for the current year?


Clarence Decatur Howe: About the same. There has been little change.


Harry Grenfell Archibald: I want to follow up what I said about that freight differential between the Telkwa collieries and those in Alberta. The minister says that payments are not made within a province; but there is a section of our province which is completely divorced from the lower end. Why can they not get the same treatment as the Alberta collieries?


Clarence Decatur Howe: All I can say is that it has never been the policy to subsidize movements of coal within a single province. We subsidize interprovincial movements but not movements within a province.


Harry Grenfell Archibald: I should like to carry this a little farther. There is an open field for development in there, and it is being hamstrung because of this policy and because of the lack of bunkers at Prince Rupert. They

Supply-Reconstruction

had to turn down orders. That country is greatly interested in becoming industrialized. In fact, it is the last great frontier for industrialization in Canada, and we would like to see the department take an interest in the matter and put in bunkers in Prince Rupert besides equalizing the freight rates.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am told there are no bunkers at Prince Rupert. Applications have been made, and I shall be glad to have them looked up and give the matter consideration. There should be bunkers there.


Mr. GILLIS:: Has the minister any comparable figures of production in Nova Scotia for 1940 and 1945? He said he was paying $8 million in production subsidies. Did he get any increased production because of the subsidies?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Clarence Gillis: Production is actually down?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Clarence Gillis: Subsidies is not the answer?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: When the report is received will it be made public in the ordinary course? This question is of such vital importance that it should engage the maximum public attention as soon as possible.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It has not been the policy to publicize subsidies to individual mines.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I am speaking of the report to which the minister referred, the report of the coal commission.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That will be widely publicized,
I assure you.


Angus MacInnis: In the matter of subsidies to the Nova Scotia collieries and production in those collieries, has the department ever made any investigation to ascertain the cause of low production if there is low production?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The difficulty in the past has been the unbalanced man-power situation. Apparently skilled mining is done by the older men and there is not the replacement at the mine face. The hon. member for Cape Breton South could give a better explanation than I can. The fact is, they have not been able to get the number of skilled coal miners to balance mine operations. Had they been able [DOT] to add fifty per cent more skilled miners, face cutters, production would have gone up proportionately, I believe.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Demobilization and reconversion-
601f. Departmental administration, $5,99,1,500.
['The difficulty in the past has been the unbalanced man-power situation. Apparently skilled mining is done by the older men and there is not the replacement at the mine face. The hon. member for Cape Breton South could give a better explanation than I can. The fact is, they have not been able to get the number of skilled coal miners to balance mine operations. Had they been able [DOT] to add fifty per cent more skilled miners, face cutters, production would have gone up proportionately, I believe.']
Thomas John Bentley: What progress is the department making with regard to assisting the provinces in the construction of necessary and useful projects? I believe the policy has been to assist the provinces and municipalities in worth-while undertakings. Will the minister give consideration to the building of a bridge across the South Saskatchewan river at Saskatchewan Landing as a necessary project both for the province and for the dominion? It is not merely a provincial affair, as he might be inclined to suggest. It is important from the point of view of tourist traffic and in the interests of people who are carrying on business in some other part of the country. There is a good deal of traffic back and forth; it is not altogether provincial, and there is a variety of reasons why there should be federal assistance in the building of the project.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is no over-all arrangement at the moment for subsidizing provinces in highway construction. A proposal was put before the provinces at the dominion-provincial conference; but, as my hon. friend is aware, no over-all agreement was obtained from the conference. There are one or two special arrangements between the provinces on highways of particular benefit to the present situation; but, generally speaking, there is more construction work in the country than can be undertaken, and as far as the Department of Reconstruction is concerned we do not think large highway programmes should be undertaken this year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Demobilization and reconversion-
605.	To provide for the liquidation of contracts; including commitments of previous years related to the acquisition of assets operated by the department or an agency of the department; miscellaneous and unforeseen expenses and for recoverable advances, $29,900,000.
['There is no over-all arrangement at the moment for subsidizing provinces in highway construction. A proposal was put before the provinces at the dominion-provincial conference; but, as my hon. friend is aware, no over-all agreement was obtained from the conference. There are one or two special arrangements between the provinces on highways of particular benefit to the present situation; but, generally speaking, there is more construction work in the country than can be undertaken, and as far as the Department of Reconstruction is concerned we do not think large highway programmes should be undertaken this year.']
James MacKerras Macdonnell: Will the minister say a word about this item, particularly the $17 million for purchase of aircraft?


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend refers to the item for purchase of aircraft, which is a revolving fund in the department covering the operation of aircraft plants. That particular item refers to Canadair. It is revolving fund to cover the operation of Canadair and the fund will be liquidated through the sale of airplanes to the customers. It is largely an item to cover the cost of twenty-

Supply-D cmobilization
five Douglas planes which will be purchased by Trans-Canada Air Lines. When Trans-Canada Air Lines pay for the planes that account will be liquidated.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Demobilization and reconversion-
606.	Reconstruction projects, subject to allocation by the treasury board, $10,000,000.
['My hon. friend refers to the item for purchase of aircraft, which is a revolving fund in the department covering the operation of aircraft plants. That particular item refers to Canadair. It is revolving fund to cover the operation of Canadair and the fund will be liquidated through the sale of airplanes to the customers. It is largely an item to cover the cost of twenty-\n\nSupply-D cmobilization\nfive Douglas planes which will be purchased by Trans-Canada Air Lines. When Trans-Canada Air Lines pay for the planes that account will be liquidated.']
Mr. QUELCH:: The Minister of Agriculture stated that there would be an allocation of $115,000 from this item to pay for the services of an engineer to check the engineering details in connection with the Red Deer diversion scheme. Has that been completed, and is there any possibility of tenders being let for construction work in the near future?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That fund is available for reconstruction projects, but the projects themselves are handled by other departments of government. For instance, the Red Deer project is being handled by the Department of Agriculture. Whether the allocation has been made from this for the Red Deer project- I am told it has not-the Department of Agriculture is aware that the cost of the survey can be allocated from this fund upon application. I believe the Minister of Agriculture in his estimates stated that the work on the project this year would be confined to a survey and engineering studies but that no construction would take place in the current year.


Victor Quelch: Has not any money been used from this item for checking surveys? I understood that the surveys would be checked this year by an engineer and, if they proved satisfactory, tenders might be Jet next year to carry on construction work. I thought that work was to be done this year.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I know that the surveys are under way. So far as I am aware, the Department of Agriculture has not asked for an allocation to pay for the cost of the surveys. I presume they are being financed at present from current funds in possession of the Department of Agriculture.


Angus MacInnis: The item says, "subject to allocation by the treasury board." Has that allocation been made yet? The minister also said that when the allocation was made it would be under another department, but I doubt whether the item will be repeated in another department, so that if we are to get information we shall have to get it from the minister.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The item is used for financing other departments. For example the Department of Agriculture asked for an allocation of $115,000, I think, to carry out surveys and 63260-339J
engineering studies of the Red Deer river project. That money will ultimately be paid by the Department of Agriculture and refunded to this account. We financed other really urgent projects from it, not large projects, but certain projects have been financed from this account for a period. Ultimately the departments which do the spending include the amounts in their own estimates, and from those estimates reimburse the reconstruction department.


Angus MacInnis: Does the minister know of any other projects which have been approved or started under this item?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Electric power development on the Snare river-that is near Yellowknife -$200,000; Yellowknife road, $18,500; South Saskatchewan river project, $137,000; Red Deer river diversion project, $115,000.


Victor Quelch: That has not been paid out?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. These are the allocations to date.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Is the Yellowknife
development under construction?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Has the minister any idea when they, may expect power?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No; that is actually for the Department of Mines and Resources to say.


Angus MacInnis: Outside of the items mentioned it is not likely that the remainder of this item will be used this year.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No; it is an emergency item put in as part of the reconstruction programme, so that work could be provided in an area if acute unemployment developed, but fortunately acute unemployment has not developed and the fund is little used.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: For actual construction or planned?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It can be used for construction. The fund is administered by the reconstruction committee of the cabinet; and if a department has a project not included in its normal estimates for which a good reason can be given for immediate commencement-and the best reason is that there is serious unemployment in the area-then the reconstruction committee of the cabinet may allocate funds from this vote temporarily to get the undertaking under way.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I notice this item is up $5,000,000. W'hy is that?
Supply-Demobilization


Clarence Decatur Howe: The original vote was for a short period, as I remember, the remainder of the fiscal year. This $10 million vote is intended to cover the full year. Really it was put at $10 million in the expectation that an agreement would be entered into with the provinces which would call for joint expenditure on certain types of public works. It is probably larger than is needed under the present circumstances but it was put in at $10 million. To date the expenditure has been small.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Some time ago the minister's department sent men to different municipalities and asked them to plan reconstruction work. Is that right?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes; but that had nothing to do with this vote. That was part of the plan for maintaining a high level of employment which we hoped to work out in conjunction with the provinces. The purpose of those visits was to see what urgent work was required and to make sure that the work was fully planned at this time so that it could be used as a balance-wheel to any sudden drop in employment. The proposal which the dominion government made to the provinces was that if the work was filed as a fully planned project it would be entitled to a twenty per cent grant at the time, if carried out at the time the government said the work was needed.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The provinces would have to work with the municipalities?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: There are no crown companies included in this item?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Would not this item cover items such as the Toronto street railway subway?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It does not cover anything at the moment because no agreement between the dominion and the provinces was arrived at. There is no such arrangement in effect at the present time. There is no such thing as a timing grant at the moment and may not be unless there is an ultimate agreement with the provinces. Had the agreement been reached certain parts of the Toronto subway proposal would have been a suitable project for timing. It is a project which would have received a grant had it been built at the time that the Department of Reconstruction indicated the work was needed in the interests of unemployment.


Agar Rodney Adamson: At the present time there is no grant available for the Toronto street railway subway?
TMr. Fraser.1


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is correct.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Under any item in the department?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is correct.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: If. an agreement had been reached there would be no grant until such time as the dominion government said it was necessary to go ahead with the work in order to take care of unemployment?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is correct.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: In any event, in to-day's circumstances there would probably be some considerable time before that money would be granted and it would be only as an emergency measure.


Victor Quelch: I should like the minister to say a word on the urgency of some of these projects, for instance, the Red Deer diversion scheme. Are we to understand that that scheme will not be constructed until such time as unemployment increases? There is real urgency for that scheme to be carried out as early as possible. In that area we have had four years of drought, and drought again this year. The sooner the government can construct that project, the sooner drought relief will be taken care of. Surely the government is not going to wait for unemployment to increase before the project, is carried out.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is nothing to prevent the Minister of Agriculture from including a vote in his estimates to carry out that project whenever parliament decides to give him money for that purpose. That would have nothing to do with this vote. The vote under reconstruction is simply to take care of emergency situations.


Victor Quelch: The Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act is limited to $3 million. The Red Deer diversion scheme will cost $6 million.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is nothing to prevent parliament from granting the Department of Agriculture such amounts as may be determined.


Harry Grenfell Archibald: Would this item cover surveys of natural resources which we may be short of at the moment? Would it apply to that?


Clarence Decatur Howe: If an urgent situation came forward which would commend itself to the reconstruction committee it might be used for that purpose; but ordinarily surveys are taken care of by regular appropriations in the appropriate departments which conduct the surveys.

Supply-Demobilization


Harry Grenfell Archibald: In this connection, we seem to be fairly short of coal. I should like to bring the Ground Hog coal region to the attention of the minister. The board of trade want an appropriate survey made of it because there are millions of tons of coal there comparable to Pennsylvania coal. They should like to know what they have there, and they are anxious to see that country surveyed as soon as possible.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Demobilization and reconversion-
607.	Housing development, including commitments of previous years, $42,000,000.
['In this connection, we seem to be fairly short of coal. I should like to bring the Ground Hog coal region to the attention of the minister. The board of trade want an appropriate survey made of it because there are millions of tons of coal there comparable to Pennsylvania coal. They should like to know what they have there, and they are anxious to see that country surveyed as soon as possible.']
Douglas Gooderham Ross: Housing is a big question. Perhaps the minister could give us some information on this vote.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Of the approved estimates for the fiscal year 1945-46, approximately $17 million will be unexpended as at March 31, 1946, but will be required for the fiscal year 1946-47. In other words, $17,000,000 of the amount is a carryover from last year. In addition, there is the amount of approximately $25,000,000 required for the construction of 6,000 new houses. These houses will be constructed at various points across Canada to meet the emergency housing requirements for the accommodation of war veterans and their dependents.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Would they be constructed under Wartime Housing?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: That does not come under the other company?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: It comes under the Department of Finance, does it?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The money for the insurance companies is raised by the insurance companies, and through a loan from the government under the Central Mortgage Corporation.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Is there any other government corporation which operates under this fund?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, it all refers to Wartime Housing.


Frank Exton Lennard: Do I understand that the home conversion plan, which was being taken over by Central Mortgage Corporation, was taken over recently by the Department of Reconstruction?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Frank Exton Lennard: Does it come under this item?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. The funds for that were voted to the Department of Finance, and when the branch was taken over the vote came with it.


Frank Exton Lennard: I will say this, that it has been battered around from pillar to post, in three different departments. There have been so many rash promises made to home owners that the minister will have to have an extremely good man in his department to straighten the matter out. He has taken over something that will be pretty hot in the next few months.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I view it wTith alarm, myself.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Demobilization and reconversion-
60S. Emergency coal production board-production subsidies, loans and rentals as may be approved by the governor in council, $12,000,000.
['I view it wTith alarm, myself.']
Agar Rodney Adamson: What does this item include? I am prompted to ask this'question because I saw only recently that the Ontario government, owing to the emergency situation, was trying to reopen or re-dievelop the low-grade lignite areas in northern Ontario. Would this item assist in that operation? I realize it is thoroughly uncommercial. I am in agreement, however, that when winter comes, almost any low-grade type of coal, which is found to be combustible, might be put into a furnace. Would -this include such materials as oil coke, a by-product of the refineries?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am happy to say that the lignite deposits in northern Ontario are entirely the property and responsibility of the provincial government. This subsidy does not cover coke.


Agar Rodney Adamson: What is it for?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am told transportation
subsidies are paid on coke, in certain circumstances-to maintain the price ceiling, if the coke has to be moved a considerable distance. For instance, on coke moved from the Algoma Steel Company plant to Toronto, there would be a subsidy to the extent of part of the freight rate.


Agar Rodney Adamson: This is purely a transportation subsidy on fuel, is it?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No; this is largely a production subsidy. Since costs of production of coal in practically all the mines in Canada increased during the war, an attempt was made to maintain the price of coal to the consumer. The extra pressure was taken up by production subsidies to the operators.


Agar Rodney Adamson: This has nothing to do with the present coal emergency? It is similar to an item which was carried through during the war?
Supply-Demobilization


Clarence Decatur Howe: It was built up during the war.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I should, like to ask
whether the amount of subsidies paid is the same to producers of coal in Nova Scotia as it is to producers in British Columbia and Alberta, or do they vary from field to field?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It varies all across the board. An attempt 'has been, made to equalize, on an area basis. For example, in Alberta there is a pattern for subsidy, and in Nova Scotia there is a pattern, but the Alberta pattfem is by no means the same as that in Nova Scotia.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Will the minister give us the subsidy per ton in one field in Nova Scotia and the subsidy per ton in one field in Alberta?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The independent mines in Nova Scotia have a subsidy of sixty-five cents a ton and it goes up to $2 in some cases; in New Brunswick the subsidy is $1 a ton; on Vancouver island it is sixty-five cents, and in Alberta it varies from thirty to sixty-five cents.


Angus MacInnis: What is the total cost of the production of a ton of coal in the coal fields the minister mentioned?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I shall be glad to give that information at eight o'clock.


Douglas Scott Harkness: How much of that
$12,000,000 will be paid to each of the four provinces, respectively, for which the minister gave the rates?


Clarence Decatur Howe: About $8,000,000 to Nova Scotia, about $400,000 to New Brunswick and the remainder about equally divided between Alberta and British Columbia.


Douglas Scott Harkness: It seems to me that in comparison with the amount of coal produced, these figures do not work out-unless all the Alberta coal receives the 30-cent rate. In other words, the figures do not jibe.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Steam coal in Alberta is not subsidized.


Douglas Scott Harkness: There is no subsidy on it at all?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, there is no subsidy on steam coal. The subsidy is on domestic coal in Alberta.


Douglas Scott Harkness: It is on all types of coal in other provinces, is it?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Why is that?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The mines in Alberta are in a profit position. The ceiling price allows them a profit. That is not so in Nova Scotia.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Then the purpose of this subsidy, essentially, is to keep in operation what would otherwise be nonproductive mines, is it?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, that is corrcet.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.
Demobilization and reconversion-
609. Administration, reconversion and operation of crown companies and/or crown plants, $20,000,000.
['Yes, that is corrcet.']
Douglas Gooderham Ross: Would the minister give us a few words of explanation about this item?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This vote covers a number of more or less clean-up items. The first has to do with Canadian Arsenals. A nucleus of war production capacity was established, the purpose being to make it possible to produce any article that was produced during the war in the permanent arsenals set-up. Specialized equipment was taken over from a number of plants and moved into the establishments which are included in the arsenals set-up. The cost of operating Dominion Arsenals for the full year is included in this item and it amounts to $3,600,000. It is probable that that is an outside figure because the practice of Canadian Arsenals is to charge for work carried on. A nucleus personnel must be kept on and there must be funds with which to pay that nucleus, but if a fair amount of work is provided by the services for the arsenals it is probable that they will be self-sustaining. The $3,600,000 is estimated to be the cost of operating the arsenals on a minimum basis.
The Dominion Arsenal at Quebec is put in as a separate item. This is the cartridge case and small arms division, and the amount provided is $1,828,940, for expenses of operating Quebec arsenal. I might say that that is much less than the pre-war vote for the same arsenal. Then the operating expenses for Chalk River are included, this amount being $4,500,000 which it is estimated will be needed to operate this plant for a full year.
Then, in connection with the winding up of crown operations I might say that when the actual work stops expenses go on for a time. This item is included to cover the cost of liquidating these crown companies. It includes operating companies such as Canadian Arsenals, Eldorado Mining and Refining Com-

Supply-Demobilization
pany, Park Steamship Company, Polymer Corporation, War Assets Corporation and Wartime Housing Limited. In some cases the winding up of companies involves a loss arising out of operating expenses during the winding-up period, and in this connection there is a long list of some thirty companies, which I shall be glad to read if my hon. friend wishes this information. The amount here is $10,071,060 for winding-up costs of these crown companies, making a total of $20,000,000.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I suppose the arsenals which are to be operated now will be more or less pilot plants so that we shall be able to make anything we want and carry on experiments?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The arsenals are publicly owned plants designed for the purpose of making small quantities of everything that the forces may require. The understanding is that larger quantities would be made by private industry based on shop practices established in Canadian Arsenals. The net result will be that Canada will be much better equipped to move into the large-scale production of war material than she was when the present war broke out.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: This is similar to what we suggested in this house many years ago, that we should have arsenals capable of keeping a number of men employed so that we would be able to move into large-scale production and have trained workmen who would be available as foremen to carry on the work.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is exactly the purpose.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Demobilization and reconstruction-
9Jfl. Termination of contracts - further amount required, $25,000,000.
['That is exactly the purpose.']
James MacKerras Macdonnell: It seems to me that $25,000,000 is an astonishing large amount to be coming along as a supplement. Why is it that this vote could not have been calculated more accurately?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is entirely a revote. It was anticipated that a larger number of contracts would have been settled before the end of the last fiscal year. It is necessaiy to revote $25,000,000 in order to permit contracts to be settled this year which were provided for in the estimates of 1945-46, but which could not be settled until after that vote had lapsed.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Why is it in the supplementary rather than the main estimates?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Item 610 in the main estimates is for $50,000,000, but that item was made up before the end of the last fiscal year. It was expected that the outlay during the last fiscal year would have been greater than it was, and therefore, in addition to the $50,000,000 voted in the main estimates, it is necessary to make provision for $25,000,000 in connection with contracts which it was expected would have been settled in the last fiscal year and for which provision was made in the last fiscal year, but for which settlement could not be concluded.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Would War Assets come under this item?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. There is no vote here for War Assets, but I promised that War Assets could be discussed under an item in these estimates. If my hon. friend cares to discuss War Assets under this item I shall be glad to have him do so.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I asked a question which was answered, but I have not the answer with me. The navy department gave a list of articles, such as Fairmiles, corvettes, et cetera, which had been turned over to War Assets and I should like to know what War Assets received. I am not referring to the inventory which the navy department handed over, because I know War Assets did not receive all that inventory. At Three Rivers two corvettes were turned over to War Assets, and we know for a fact that many things were taken off those boats. The same thing occurred at Hamilton. A number of people went through he boats, and dental and medical equipment and many other things were taken. I should like to know what was on the ships when War Assets took over.


Clarence Decatur Howe: If there was any pilferage, I suppose that material would not be included in deliveries to War Assets Corporation. We guard these boats as best we can, and if there has been theft it could not be avoided. The cost of guarding them was high, and that was one of the reasons why we wanted to make a quick sale while there was something left on them.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: You have now over 1,000 guards with War Assets?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: How many employees altogether has War Assets at the present time?


Clarence Decatur Howe: About 7,000.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Are you taking on more
employees at the present time?
Supply-Demobilization


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, we have passed our peak. As soon as we empty a warehouse we can. relieve ourselves of the cost of guarding it. The peak of the operations of War Assets was passed at the end of July. Up to then we had been receiving material faster than we had been selling it, but the peak has passed and we are now selling a little faster than we are receiving. That trend will accelerate during the rest of the year. So that the staff has passed its peak. My hon. friend mentioned 1,000 guards. Taking in the whole custodian branch of War Assets the number of personnel would be nearer 2,500.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: How many departments are there in War Assets?


Clarence Decatur Howe: A complete report of the
activities of War Assets was tabled a week or two ago. That would give the information. I dare say the figure of 1,000 guards who are acting only as guards may be about correct, but the entire staff having custody of the articles and materials that have been turned over to War Assets is nearer 2,500.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: What building material has War Assets at the present time?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It has no building material other than the material that comes from the demolition of buildings. It is demolishing buildings and salvaging the building material as rapidly as that operation can be carried out. Other than that it keeps no stock of building material.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: What about pipe?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No pipe, except as we take it out of the ground on some dismantled project.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: You had some new black iron standard pipe some months ago, I understand.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The inventory is turning over all the time; we may have it to-day and sell it to-morrow. Most of the pipe we get goes to Wartime Housing to relieve the shortage there, or to some other government project such as veterans housing. It is turned over promptly.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: What vehicles has War
Assets at the present time at New Sarum outside of St. Thomas?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We process vehicles as fast as they are turned over to us, allowing time for advertising and the preliminaries that have to be gone through in disposing of government property. I venture to say that War Assets never had in its custody any vehicle for more than two months.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: You did at that place.
Perhaps they were not under War Assets but under navy or army or air. But they were stored there for much longer , than two months.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We can deal with them only after they are turned over to us and after documentation is completed1. I still think I am right, and I am so assured by officers. We have never had a vehicle in the custody of War Assets for more than two months.


Mr. COYLE:: That place is in my riding. I venture to say that there are 8,000 trucks sitting in the yard there to-day, and some of them have been there for over a year.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Who owns them?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The government owns them. You cannot pass the buck.


Clarence Decatur Howe: My responsibility begins on the day that official documentation is completed and the property turned over to War Assets. Before that, I do not know that they exist.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Someone is at fault. Would the Minister of National Defence be the proper minister to ask about the matter? Surely we should not be put off with that as the final answer.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The services can give you the date on which the trucks were turned over to War Assets, or I could if I had more time. The committee on war expenditures has been given that information. That committee was the place to get details of that kind.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: According to the answer I got, there should be just a few hundred trucks with War Assets at the present time, but I understand there are still thousands of trucks in that place. The information just does not jibe.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The only trucks that War Assets has at this moment, so far as I know, are some trucks that were crated for shipment abroad. Some of them were being sold in Canada and some outside. Beyond that, we have no trucks in War Assets.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: The matter should not be left in that position. We have had the statement made on the responsibility of a member that thousands of trucks still stand there. The minister says that they have not been in the custody of War Assets. Surely, then, we have the right to ask the government as a whole for an explanation of this situation, which seems a preposterous one. We are entitled to know just what the position is with respect to these trucks. Surely this item can stand until we

Supply-Demobilization
have been given the information, which could be got to-day or to-morrow, or, if not then, the next day, and I presume we shall be here for a couple of days.


Clarence Decatur Howe: This item has nothing to do with War Assets, but I said that War Assets could be discussed on this item.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Then let the minister, who is more familiar with these matters, suggest another item on which it would be proper to raise this matter. But he did suggest that War Assets could be discussed on this item, and this question surely affects War Assets, or, if not, the Department of National Defence. Surely we do not want to have this thing just pushed out of sight on a technicality. We should have a statement from someone in the government who knows just what the situation is.


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend has been a member of the committee on war expenditures, which has been sitting thiee times a week for almost the entire session. Surely he could ask there.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I have not been on that committee for many months, and unfortunately we have not a member of that committee sitting in this quarter of the house at the moment. Again I ask the minister for an answer to this question, which I think should be answered.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There may be various explanations. I do not have the details in mind. I know that Hagersville is a permanent park for military vehicles. Is this town anywhere near Hagersville?


John Ritchie MacNicol: New Sarum is half way between St. Thomas and Aylmer. It is a very old settlement.


Charles Delmar Coyle: It is only five miles outside the city of St. Thomas. The information I got was that at one time there were 12,000 trucks there. There are not so many there now, but I would say that there are 8,000 there. Some have been there for a long time sitting right out in the open, ready to run. There was an auction sale or two there, but only a few trucks were sold and they all went to Jews in Toronto.


John Oliver Probe: I am one of those fortunate or unfortunate members of the house who have spent some considerable time in the war expenditures committee attempting to get information like that which is troubling the committee at the present moment. It might be due to the fact that those of us who were on the committee were not skilled in the art of proper cross-examination so that we could pin the witnesses down to a specific point 63260-340
and realize when we had been somewhat. 9ide-tracked and had not reached that point. But from time to time we have attempted to get some information and have not always been outstandingly successful.
In the matter of these vehicles which seem to be available, as far as the public is concerned, in such large numbers, I think the minister could very well give the committee a statement on the matter of declarations by departments of government to War Assets Corporation wherein materials which are declared surplus are left in the custody of the service concerned because War Assets Corporation said they did not have the man-power available to take over the materials. In circumstances like that there is, I think, the danger of manipulation.
I will try to illustrate what I mean. Various sendee groups, notably of the army and air force, attempted to turn over the contents of various buildings in various parts of this country to War Assets Corporation. The number of such declarations ran into several thousands at the time the committee inquired about them this spring. I have not here the minutes of the proceedings, but the exact number is on record of cases where War Assets Corporation stated that they were unable physically to inspect, check and take over the equipment which was declared surplus by the branch of the service. The result of that was something like this. People who are interested in what is contained in these buildings, if they have some means of finding out the contents, can go to War Assets Corporation, and if they are fortunate, secure a release from War Assets of that portion of the material in which they are interested. That actually happened in many cases, because the service organizations admitted to us in the war expenditures committee that some of the declarations they had made to War Assets Corporation had been taken over in part and that they were still custodians of various buildings with part of the equipment which they had' originally intended to turn over to War Assets.
That situation perhaps will-and you cannot persuade the man on the street otherwise- if it has not done so, lend itself to some form of favouritism or manipulation, because, if one consumer or dealer can go to War Assets Corporation and get some of the commodities which are contained in the building where these items are stored, and can secure the release of part of them, you still leave-the rest of them nominally within the control of the army or the air force, and the War Assets people can at any time say to a prospective buyer, if they

Supply-Demobilization

are not interested in selling to him, "We have not physically received the goods which you say are in such-and-such a building." I think the minister owes the committee a specific statement concerning declarations covering part of the assets in buildings where the services have attempted to turn over the contents to War Assets Corporation. Would he give us some indication of how his department is now handling that situation?


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend has referred to a situation which existed seven or eight months ago.


John Oliver Probe: As recently as three months ago.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Not as recently as that. In the very early stages "War Assets was attempting to build up a staff which would permit it to take custody of equipment and apparatus as fast as it was turned over by the services. It took time to do that. I have told the committee to-day that at the present time War Assets Corporation has something over 2,500 people engaged in that particular work of maintaining custody of goods turned over by the services. It took weeks to build that staff, but to-day it has a staff, and to-day anything which is declared surplus by the services is in the custody of War Assets Corporation.
I find that this question about trucks was answered very fully at the meeting of the committee on war expenditures held on August 15. The last question is the one which seems to be agitating the committee:
Q. In what province or provinces are the remainder of these surplus vehicles located?
A. As of July 31, 11946, the corporation had the following passenger vehicles on hand located in the provinces indicated below:
Ontario 	. 63	Saskatchewan .	3Nova Scotia ..	. 49	Alberta 	3Manitoba .. .	. 7	British Columbia 22	Quebec	
15


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Does it give trucks?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: These are passenger vehicles.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think I have the trucks here too.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: These are only passenger vehicles turned over by the service departments which have surplus vehicles.


Clarence Decatur Howe: New Sarum is an airport taken over by the army for processing vehicles. About two months ago there were some four thousand vehicles, of which 3,000 to 3,500 have been declared surplus to War Assets but have not been processed for sale. I believe the matter is being actively followed up at present and probably some have already been disposed

of. In other words, the army is processing these vehicles, for transfer to War Assets Corporation. In other words, they are in the course of being transferred from the army to War Assets at this time.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The way the trucks have been serviced is a disgrace. In many cases the trucks look absolutely good: the agent is notified that a truck is at such-and-such a place for him; he sends his tow truck for it; he tows it to his place; it looks absolutely all right; they start to fill it up with water and service it, and they find that the block is absolutely split, owing to the fact that it had not been drained when it was laid away.


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend is giving an excellent reply to the many critics who said that the government sold those trucks too cheaply. We sell them "as is, where is", and we discount the state of repair of the vehicles.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I know, but they should never have got in that state. It is just carelessness on somebody's part.


Mr. GRAYDON:: When the senior member for Halifax brought in his report and presented it to the house I raised the question as to whether or not there was to be concurrence in the report. He was not very sure at the time whether there would be a motion for concurrence, and I did not press him at that moment; but the minister then said that on a certain item-he did not mention any definite item-


Clarence Decatur Howe: This is the item.


Gordon Graydon: -of his estimates we might discuss War Assets. But the reason I rise now is that I thought the minister said a moment ago that this was not the item on which we could discuss War Assets.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I said it was an item under which War Assets could be discussed, though I added that the item itself had nothing to do with War Assets. I told my hon. friend that it would be permissible to discuss War Assets under some item in the estimates and this seems to be as appropriate as any, but when it was suggested that this item foe held up for some information regarding War Assets it seemed a little unreasonable.


Gordon Graydon: If this seems to be a proper time to mention War Assets, I notice in the report of war expenditures and economies committee certain recommendations by the committee to which I would refer the minister. May I ask what steps have been taken, either by himself or by War Assets Corporation, to implement the recommendations which were brought down by the com-

Supply-Demobilization
mittee in question? My own view, after reading the evidence, is that the committee was lenient in its recommendations so far as the government and War Assets Corporation were concerned, having in mind the nature of the evidence brought out. However, there are some pretty important recommendations; and we ought to have from the minister now, if the report is not to be concurred in, a statement as to how far he is prepared to go with respect to those recommendations, and also what has been done up to date in implementing them.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Many of them had been acted on before the committee had concluded its sittings. The policy of indefinite loan to educational institutions is a matter regarding which the regional offices now have additional authority. How far we shall go is a matter of judgment, but something will be done there. As regards granting to educational institutions a discount equal to that received by any dealer for similar lines, that is under consideration. It is difficult to depart from the one-price policy, but study is being given that.


Gordon Graydon: What about No. 2?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That will be permitted under the decentralized policy. Indefinite loan items were formerly handled by head office, and now they are decentralized and are handled by the branch office so that the difficulty of inspection will no longer arise. Regarding "sales at the site," we have been decentralizing to an increasing extent for months and I am told that the decentralizing is now complete. As regards selecting short-supply civilian items for immediate sale, that is being done. In dealing with the disposal of real property as quickly as possible, that has been the policy. As regards making all building material immediately available for construction purposes, that is very active. As regards the nonemployment by War Assets Corporation of persons otherwise interested in outside business, it has not been the policy to engage persons under such circumstances. I know of no employee of War Assets Corporation engaged in outside business. As regards greater publicity, I wish we could find machinery. I think War Assets have suffered greatly from lack of publicity, but we are doing our best to get information before the public.


Gordon Graydon: I am not so sure that it has suffered as greatly from lack of publicity as from the publicity it has received.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We have had wonderful
publicity recently, particularly in Maclean's magazine and in Toronto Saturday Night. That 63260-340 J
has been the greatest tribute paid to War Assets Corporation. I may point out that War Assets Corporation has sold to the end of July $226,523,150 worth of material. It is selling at the rate of considerably more than $20 million a month, and a great journal has devoted pages of its valuable circulation to an item on batteries costing less than $400, and exposing the claim that a battery which cost this country $14 could be salvaged and resold to replace a battery which cost the government $7. That is the story on batteries. As regards salvaging equipment, we have a reclamation depot that has sold close to $10 million of salvaged equipment which had been damaged beyond the point where it could be repaired for use in the services. It has carried out repairs to make possible these sales at a cost of about $2 million. In other words, it has netted some $7 million for this country, whereas the criticism to which I have referred was that an item of $40 worth of material was sold as scrap which it was claimed could also have been salvaged and sold as valuable material, and after we sold the material for scrap the dealer who bought it put it on the public dump because he could not get anything whatever for it. That is the nature of the criticism.
I see the problems of War Assets Corporation every day and they are problems running to three hundred, four hundred and five hundred thousand, perhaps a million or two millions. These are the problems of War Assets Corporation, and while we have had this committee working throughout the entire session it has not found a basis for criticism of any sale that- runs larger than the ones I have mentioned. It seems to me that if the criticism of War Assets Corporation can be kept on that scale, then War Assets Corporation is a much better institution than I ever thought it was.


John Oliver Probe: While I should like to applaud the minister's statement at this particular point, seeing that he has made it with considerable vigour and in his usual superoptimistic tone, I may tell him that it is not an easy matter for the members of the committee to get information relevant to the operations of War Assets Corporation. That may or mav not be deliberate.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Did the hon. member ever ask for any information that was not given him?


John Oliver Probe: I can answer at once by saying that an answer is always forthcoming.


George James McIlraith: You always got it.
Supply-Demobilization


John Oliver Probe: It is not until you have examined the nature of the answer given as it appears on the record some days later that a layman like myself, ignorant of the intricacies involved in the answering of such questions, and grasping the implications of those answers, can discover that he has not received an answer at all; and if one presses for a proper answer, then one is told that the question is one whieh it would cost $4,000 to answer. I may tell the minister that.
Mr. HOWE. Did my hon. friend get $4,000 worth of satisfaction out of the answer which it cost $4,000 to prepare!


Gordon Knapman Fraser: It might have resulted in saving $4 million.


John Oliver Probe: If I had an axe to grind in
any particular, possibly I could get satisfaction by asking a $4,000 question. We are concerned in seeing that the stated policy of War Assets Corporation is implemented in some reasonable degree. I do not agree with the policy of War Assets Corporation whereby sales must invariably be made through recognized business channels, particularly since there are certain legitimate business channels that did not exist before the date set by War Assets Corporation, June 30, 1941; and even so, the minister's department has made large sales to certain corporations that have come into being since that date.
The department insists that it is selling vehicles and commodities at the best possible returns consistent with the pursuit of sound business practices. I should like to remind the committee of one thing which is fairly generally known throughout the country, namely, that in the case of the eighty-four four-wheel drive vehicles which the government bought from the four-wheel drive people of Kitchener, Ontario, at $11,350 each, when there was an offer for these vehicles of $5,000 each, War Assets Corporation, instead of accepting that offer, sold them back to the original manufacturers at $4,801 each. I maintain that that is not sound business practice and that the minister, and his department do not invariably follow sound business practices.


An hon. MEMBER:: Chicken feed.


John Oliver Probe: I do not care what you call it. That was one example that I was able to unearth-I hate to use that word because it was not my intention to unearth anything. In the committee we tried to suggest to the War Assets Corporation officials that they make the materials which they have for sale available more widely throughout the country. I am pleased to hear that the policy of

decentralization, which I think was necessary, is now in operation. I hope that what the minister says is correct, and that the policy of selling by the decentralized organization in the outlying provinces takes effect without consulting Montreal every time that a deal has to be made. That is a criticism which I think is perfectly valid; I trust that the minister's department has corrected that situation, because it may be a case of locking the stable door after the horses are gone, and in some provinces there may not be very much in the decentralized location now available in the district for the people to buy. I believe that the principle of having more extensive auction sales would have been a sound one. The minister will reply that they have had five or six. I agree with that, but we should have had five or six thousand auction sales of the entire contents of those buildings "as is, where is." That method would have done a better job of getting the things out to the consumers much . quicker and would have brought in more revenue to the government of Canada. That is all I have to say.
I should like the minister to answer one question if he will. A few moments ago I spoke about partial declarations. The minister said that they have now taken over all buildings on which declarations have been proffered by declaring agencies. If I understood him correctly, my other question would not be necessary. There are no buildings now in the hands of the services where they have already proffered the contents to War Assets Corporation. Am I correct in that?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is correct, yes.


Arthur Leroy Smith: I did not know that this was the place to discuss War Assets. If it is I should like to ask a few questions. The minister suggested that the committee had met for some considerable time and that there was not a word of criticism. In order that he may not go home dissatisfied because he has had no criticism, I intend to mention a couple of items with which I was interested when I attended the committee. I was not able to be there all the time owing to the fact that I was engaged elsewhere.
In view of the encomiums-that is a big word-that he was throwing at War Assets Corporation, I should like to tell the committee one thing. In the city in which I live a bonfire burned for weeks and weeks and weeks at No. 10 repair depot, I think it is. In any event, it is the Currie barracks. War Assets admitted that they did the burning, using the agency of the R.C.A.F. No one in any government department could give us a

Supply-Demobilization
list of the items or any idea of the value of the goods burned. That is a strong statement. I see the parliamentary assistant to the minister sitting over there, and he will agree that what I say in that regard is absolutely true. We did get a list from Penhold. After much digging, the hon. member for Red Deer did get an approximate list; but it was conducted on this basis, that things were destroyed and no lists whatever were kept of the destruction. I hear the parliamentary assistant to the minister speaking. If he has something to say let him say it now.


George James McIlraith: I shall say it where I choose.


Arthur Leroy Smith: I shall be happy to oblige the hon. member, but I would suggest that he do it before I go home.


George James McIlraith: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, surely I have the right to speak privately to the minister on a matter such as this, or on any other matters which have to do with the estimates, without objection from the hon. member opposite. I have been very courteous to him in giving him answers and any information that I could at any time that he thought would be of assistance to him. But I still have some rights as a private member of the house.


Arthur Leroy Smith: May I say that I have always found the hon. member courteous. I have tried to be that way with him and I trust that relation will continue as long as we know one another. Is that satisfactory?


George James McIlraith: Very satisfactory.


Arthur Leroy Smith: I should now like to mention two other matters. The first one has to do with a place in Nova Scotia, the name of which I cannot remember. At that place small ships were being built at a cost of $68,000. Even while the committee 'was sitting, five were delivered and sold for $20,000, and five more were still being built at $68,000 and were being turned over to War Assets and sold for $20,000. That information was given in answer to a question asked by the hon. member for Cumberland and appears as part of the record. This is the question I want to ask the minister, because it is his job. I am asking both the minister and the parliamentary assistant to correct me if I am inaccurate in any way in the summary which I shall give with respect to the sale of real estate, namely, lands and buildings.
The evidence given before the committee by the 'president of War Assets Corporation may be summarized in this way. We shall
say that they have a building in a town anywhere in Ontario. They receive bids for that building. A person is buying it with the idea that he is going to convert into some useful purpose, some industry or something of that kind. In the first place, the minister and not War Assets must say whether or not that building being bought by A for the purpose of establishing a boot factory should be established there. If they do not think it should, then the man who wants to make boots does not get it, but the man who wants to make something else in that building gets it if the minister says so. The evidence is clear that, as to the price and the identity of the purchaser, it rests with the minister to say. In other words, under the present procedure of War Assets the minister-and I think we used these figures in the examination-has the say. Let us say that A bids half a million dollars for a property and B bids $400,000. The minister can sell that property to B for $400,000 and the country loses $100,000. The answer given by someone who spoke-I see my hon. friend over there; I am not going to name him, but he was not on my side anyway-was that there are many businesses started which go broke and therefore someone of more judgment must decide whether or not, after the man had paid his own money, not yours or mine, that industry could continue there because some people may be employed and when the industry . went broke they would be out of a job. I am asking the parliamentary assistant to the minister if I have given a fairly accurate- I think a completely accurate-statement with respect to real estate? I am anxious to be corrected on this. My memory is that the same thing applied to ships. But these were questions of my own which I asked during the too short time I was able to sit on that committee. I should like someone to tell me if what I have said is correct.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I will explain that. We had in the Department of Reconstruction and Supply a director general of industrial reconversion. The purpose of the director of reconversion was to get war plants converted into peacetime plants, and to maintain employment in bridging the transition.
The question came up as to the purpose to which a government plant would be put. We call for tenders on a building, and we may get a range in prices between $500,000 and $6,000. The director general of industrial reconversion then insisted that he should inspect those tenders to determine which buyer offered the most employment, If one was to be used as a dead building, and by that I
Supply-Demobilization

mean a dead storage building, and another was to be used as a manufacturing plant, that certainly gave a preference to the man who wished to buy it for manufacturing. In other words, he was buying it for a purpose which promised reasonably substantial and steady employment.
In that case a decision was made. Sometimes it was referred to me, but more often it was not. I do not suppose I have seen five per cent of the real estate transactions, but occasionally one would come to me for final decision.
But let me point out the discrepancy in my hon. friend's report. Let us suppose the man who wanted it for dead storage had bid $600,000, and the man who wanted it for a manufacturing plant had bid only $500,000. The man who wanted it for manufacturing was offered it at the higher tender, and unless he was prepared to pay the high tender he did not get the plant. Usually he was prepared so to pay; usually the difference was not as much as $100,000. But that was the determining factor in deciding whether a plant would go to a firm which was offering considerable employment, or the firm which was offering little employment, provided that the discrepancy in price was not too great.


Arthur Leroy Smith: I am sorry that the evidence before the committee is almost directly contrary to what the minister has said.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Can you produce that evidence?


Arthur Leroy Smith: The minister's parliamentary assistant will agree with what I am going to say, and without minute examination. In the first place, dead storage was never mentioned before the committee. But I have referred to these two cases of a nail factory and a boot factory. I know very little about those things, but the minister has just said that the property would not be sold unless the lower tenderer came up to the higher tenderer. The answer given to me by the president of War Assets Corporation was this, that they could do nothing but coax him to come up, and it was the responsibility of the minister to sell that property at a lower figure, if the minister so desired'. I am really asking if I am not being accurate about this.


Clarence Decatur Howe: In no case where there was a material discrepancy-there is no case on record where it was sold to a materially lower bidder. I do not remember one, but there may be one.


Arthur Leroy Smith: The thing I have in mind is this, that it is completely wrong. According to what I know, it seems to me completely wrong.


Clarence Decatur Howe: How is it wrong?


Arthur Leroy Smith: That one man, a minister of the government, may be able to say-and I believe I am fair in assuming that one is-one is a manufacturer of shoes and another man of something else; but supposing they want both to make nails. So we have it laid down the alley where there was no escape, where there is the power to sell to one man for $400,000 rather than to another man for $500,000.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The minister has power enough to make any decision he likes with regard to the sale of any war asset, and have his decision carried out.


Arthur Leroy Smith: If the minister had said he had more than enough in a matter of this kind-if he had' said he had cock-eyed power I would agree with him.


Harry Grenfell Archibald: The minister has said that there are various places where this stuff is stored. Do the guards receive cost of living bonus?


Clarence Decatur Howe: They are just temporary employees of War Assets Corporation; they are not civil servants.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Did War Assets Corporation people or the air force have charge of the destruction of equipment at the Mount Hope airport?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I never heard of any destruction at Mount Hope.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The equipment was on the runway there, and it was destroyed by a vehicle running over it.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Was the matter discussed in. committee?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: No, it was not.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Am I to take your say-so? I have never heard of it. Was it presented to the committee?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: No, it was not presented to the committee.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Why bring it up here, then?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Why not? This is the place to bring it up.


Colin William George Gibson: I can say that that was spoken of about a year ago. Upon investigation, it was found that what had been broken up was some home-made

Supply-Demobilization
furniture made by the airmen out of some bits and pieces lying around the camp. When the camp was closed this furniture was turned in as scrap lumber.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: There was some four-inch and some six-inch stuff, and it was mixed up with the rest. I am speaking about some radio equipment which was run over by a bull-dozer.


Gordon Graydon: I should like to point out to the minister that under the rules of procedure he has no right to object to a question with respect to War Assets Corporation, whether it was raised in committee or not. After all, we control our own procedure in this committee, and I am sure that on reflection the minister will accept the view that the hon. member for Peterborough West is entitled to ask his question.
The minister has spoken about the raising of bids of successful tenderers or successful bidders on pieces of real estate owned by War Assets Corporation. I know of one instance where that was done. I want to ask the minister if it is a fair statement to say that in the early days of War Assets Corporation that policy was not followed, and that the policy now followed with respect to sales of war assets was a complete change? That is my information and I should like to have some comment from the minister. While in recent times some of the criticism which applied in earlier days may have been removed-it is to be hoped that is so-is it not true that in the earlier days some of these allegations had foundation? I would ask the minister to make comment on this and say whether or not this process of jacking up the successful bidder who might get a plant is not a comparatively new policy? Has that policy been followed in the case of each parcel of real estate that has been sold?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I know of no case where property has been sold when War Assets had a better offer, and that applies from the beginning of time. I was more closely connected with the sale of properties in the early days than I have been in recent months.


Gordon Graydon: What part did the local reconstruction councils play in the sale of real estate when the factors of employment, warehousing, storage and so on were involved?


Clarence Decatur Howe: As I stated, the reconstruction councils acting through the director general of industrial reconversion passed on sales before they were made. In other words, they indicated the type of industry among those bidding for a plant which would be the most beneficial from the point of view of reconversion, and those responsible for the sale attempted to act accordingly but never at a price lower than the best price offered. I would not be absolutely sure that that was always true, but I know of no case where it was not.


Gordon Graydon: As I understand it, the reconstruction council in an area such as Toronto would act in an advisory capacity to the director of reconversion. If that is so, why have these reconstruction councils been abolished in certain places?


Clarence Decatur Howe: They were all abolished as at the end of August, The functions of the reconstruction councils had to do with government plans for full employment under the proposed dominion-provincial agreements. When the dominion-provincial agreements failed to materialize, it was felt that we were not justified in the expense involved in keeping the reconstruction councils alive.


Gordon Graydon: My understanding was that the expense involved was relatively small, and it seems to me that with War Assets still having substantial holdings of real estate to be sold there should be no change in government policy.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I know of very few indus-tiial plants which remain to be sold. The problem of reconversion is at least three-quarters completed. In other words, we now care very little for what purpose a plant is to be used, because the peacetime industries which were clamouring for accommodation a year ago have all been taken care of. I know of only one industrial property within thirty miles of Toronto that is for sale to-day and personally I do not care for what purpose it is used.


Gordon Graydon: The minister is speaking of industrial properties which have been declared surplus, but I take it he is not in position to indicate what is likely to be declared surplus in that area. To my knowledge. there are some properties which have not jret been declared surplus.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There may be military properties, but I know of no manufacturing property under the control of the Department of Munitions and Supply that has been declared surplus. The only property I know of in the whole area that may be sold is the property that was used for the making of cartridge cases.


Agar Rodney Adamson: What is the policy in connection with, dividing up a property for sale or rent as has been done with the small arms plant at Long Branch?
Supply-Demobilization


Clarence Decatur Howe: The small arms plant is a multiple occupancy plant owned and administered by the government. Part of the plant is required for the arsenals scheme, but the larger part was subdivided and rented to responsible tenants. As has been stated, there are a number of industries renting space in that building and they are all tenants of the government.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Are they tenants of War Assets?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Canadian Arsenals.


John Oliver Probe: Has a deadline been set by War Assets to the declaring government agencies with respect to the declaring of surplus materials? It would seem to me that it is about time the government agencies had put their houses in order. They should know the state of their surpluses. For example, the army gave us a clear-out picture of their stock position. Could the minister state whether there has been a deadline set with respect to the declaration of surpluses by the declaring agencies, or are they being given unlimited time?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We are giving them unlimited time. War Assets. Corporation acts under a statute of parliament and is bound to receive surpluses whenever the services may declare them. It has no power to declare a deadline.


John Oliver Probe: It seems to me that that is a rather unbusinesslike procedure. The government has power to say to its own agencies, "Get your business in such condition that we shall know what surpluses we have to sell at such a time".


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is within t'he power of the government to dio that, but it is not within the power of War Assets Corporation and my hon. friend asked if War Assets had declared a deadline. The latest report I have indicates that about ninety per cent of the material that will ultimately reach War Assets has now been declared surplus.


George Hugh Castleden: Among the returns in connection with the operations of War Assets is one dealing with machine tools and equipment. One of the favourite firms in Montreal which has obtained some of the larger equipment is the Associated Machinery Corporation, Balfour building, Montreal. This company purchased some $886,000 worth of machine tools and equipment. It is enlightening to see the way in which they have been handling these goods. I have an example of the type of thing that happens when an average man tries to deal with War Assets. We know that aeroplane producers in the United States are

doing pretty well, but when it comes to the small machine shop in a small town it is entirely different. This particular company was advertising honing machines, complete with 110-volt motor. This particular man thought it was good value and he decided to invest $75 for a machine. But when he got the machine he found it was in rather bad shape. The whole thing had been stripped and what he got was simply a frame which was absolutely useless. He wrote back and he was told that he had brought it on an "as, is and where" basis. However, he protested further and finally they gave him a credit of S15.
This is one of the recognized dealers of the department and this is the kind of thing whieh Canadian people have objected to tremendously. Of course the whole operations of War Assets are pretty much of a dilemma for the government, supporting as they do the present system of the distribution of surplus goods by War Assets, goods which the Canadian people have paid for already through taxation and goods whieh should be available to the Canadian people. The whole idea of War Assets, under our present system of economy is that these goods should be destroyed so as not to interfere with business. The minister says that ninety per cent of all the goods that are ever going to reach War Assets have already been delivered. How much has it cost the Canadian people for these goods, and what percentage are the Canadian people going to realize out of the operations of War Assets Corporation in selling these goods? Their whole policy seems to be: Do not let these goods get out into the hands of the people; whatever you do, see that the goods are destroyed rather than go into channels that will interfere with trade.


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend differs somewhat from the policy followed by his own province. One of our dealers, and one that was most insistent on being made a dealer, is Crown Assets Corporation of the province of Saskatchewan. Distribution in that province is handled through that dealer organization because of that insistence. So why my hon. friend is so bitter about dealers I do not know. The only practical way of handling sales of machinery is through dealers for the very reason my hon. friend states. A machine is shipped out and the buyer is not satisfied. He thinks he has not received all the parts the machine should have. War Assets is doing a wholesale business, whereas a retail dealer can

Supply-Demobilization
make the required adjustment. That is the function of a dealer. I know of no way of distributing machine tools to individuals except through dealers.


George Hugh Castleden: The minister has not answered my question:	I asked for an approximate estimate of the original cost to the Canadian people of the goods which War Assets is handling and what approximately the Canadian people will realize from the disposition of these goods. Will the Canadian people realize eight per cent, ten per cent or some other percentage of the cost of these goods to the Canadian people in the first place?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I could give that by classifications. I could tell my hon. friend what proportion of the purchase price of real estate and buildings War Assets is receiving. I could give the percentage of recovery on machine tools. But take poison gas, for instance. It cost a great deal of money to produce and the recovery from it is nil. In fact, there was a very large bill against War Assets for disposing of it. 'Take fighter planes. The recovery on them is very small. A few types can be adapted at great expense to domestic uses but great numbers of them cannot be. The cheapest way to get rid of obsolete planes was the bonfire, but the bonfire was so disturbing to people that we adopted a new policy, which seems to work very well. We sold the carcasses of planes for $5 apiece, and if you drive through Saskatchewan or Alberta you will find an aeroplane carcass in almost every farmyard.


Arthur Leroy Smith: No.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am telling you.


Arthur Leroy Smith: You are not telling me; you are telling these other fellows.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The recovery on items like that is not great. On other classifications I believe that our percentage of recovery is very much higher than in the United States, and I think it will compare favourably with the recovery on similar items in other parts of the world.


Agar Rodney Adamson: The difficulty is that so many of us who may want these things from time to time cannot find out where they, can be bought. I was one of the fortunate ones in that I was able to buy a universal carrier, for which I paid $200.


Clarence Decatur Howe: You must have had influence.


Mr. ISXOR:: You bought it direct?


Agar Rodney Adamson: Yes. Living in the country I find it very useful for hauling lumber, and, as I said, it amuses the children, who
love to drive it. It is amazing how young they can learn these things. I found out by mere chance that these universal carriers were for sale. In the United States press not a day goes by but what you see advertisements of war equipment for sale at the larger stores in New York. I mention one in particular. Macy's had an advertisement the other day of carburettors for the Merlin engine. The people bought them simply because they cost four or five hundred dollars originally and were selling at fifty dollars, and presumably a large amount of money went to the government and the agent in disposing of those carburettors. But there is very little advertising of these surplus goods that are for sale in Canada. The average man on the street has very little opportunity of seeing them advertised. The big stores do not advertise them. Take an article like flying boots, which are very useful and desirable in a country where there is lots of snow. I was in one of the larger stores in Toronto and they told me, "Oh, yes, we get flying boots occasionally but they are all snapped up by the people who are in the store at the time." I think a great deal more effort should be made by the agents to advertise War Assets goods that are for sale. Some people who are lucky and are in the store at the right moment are able to get them, but there are thousands and thousands of instances of goods which are considered unsaleable and are not advertised which could be sold. I believe that a great deal more effort should be made to advertise the goods which the department has for sale.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: Before this item passes,
perhaps I should say a word or two, particularly in regard to the remarks made by the hon. member for Peel. I recall that when the report was tabled, with my name to it, he inquired whether I proposed to move concurrence. I replied, if I remember rightly, that I would be pleased to do so if an opportunity presented itself. I added that the committee had considered that question but had not felt it advisable to make a motion of concurrence or at least suggested to the chairman that that course be followed. Later on, the hon. member for Peel used the phrase "a whitewash" report. He may have something in mind in regard to whitewashing, but in fairness to the committee which I may say was a very fine committee, apart from' the chairman-


Arthur Leroy Smith: The chairman gave us a dinner and it was an excellent one.


An hon. MEMBER:: What was the bribe?
Supply-Demobilization


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: If I may answer that ungentlemanly remark, there was no bribe. The dinner was given at the conclusion of our deliberations.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I heard that the chairman was very good and very impartial.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: Coming to the suggestion that this was a "whitewash" report, I deny that it was a "whitewash." Hon. members agreed, and so stated, that it was a very fair report. We were not going to condemn the government for something it had not done, merely to satisfy certain, hon. members who were not on the committee. We were not going to condemn War Assets Corporation for carrying on in a manner which they felt would bring the best returns to our country. Sitting there as chairman, listening to the evidence day in and day out during our deliberations, I say without fear of contradiction that War Assets Corporation has done an exceedingly fine job. It may have made mistakes. The armed services may have made mistakes; they may have destroyed in the early stages some useful material. But I should like to know of any other organization which could be set up that would handle a business of $226 million in the time in which they did it and perform a better job. It must be remembered that War Assets Corporation was brought into being without any previous experience of the kind; it had to establish a new structure; it had to bring into being an agency, first to collect, then to assemble, recondition and supply the market with these goods in such a way as, so far as possible, not to interfere with the regular sale of goods.	.
The hon. member who has just taken his seat referred to Macy's, New York, advertising war assets goods obtained from War Assets Association-"W.A.A." The same thing applied here in Canada:	Eaton's, Simpson's
and other stores throughout the dominion advertised the very articles that he mentioned.
I remember they sold airmen's shoes retail for $12.50.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I know. I bought a pair.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: But War Assets Corporation could not possibly retail those, as some hon. members-inexperienced members-may think. War Assets Corporation could not sell those through retail channels; it would not be profitable to do so; they would not get the net return which they are getting to-day. The corporation was set up for the purpose of disposing as rapidly as possible of surplus materials, and I think they are doing that in the 
best possible way, in spite of what hon. members who were not on the committee, and have not had an opportunity of studying their policy, may say.
As regards the questions and answers, I do not know whether the replies received were satisfactory to all hon. members, but I believe that the officials of War Assets Corporation and of the armed services endeavoured, to the best of their ability, to give the information which was requested of them. I do not know of any case, with the possible exception of the question referring to repairs to ships, in which the information has not been given in a complete manner; and, as regards ships, I believe the request was made for the cost of repairs in connection with twenty-seven of them. Seventeen ships were covered in the first return and, if I recall rightly, seven in a later return, making twenty-four out of twenty-seven, and particulars as to the other three were promised as soon as the repairs are completed.
I could go on, Mr. Chairman, and talk at great length with regard to the evidence. There were over 1,200 pages of evidence. .It is almost impossible for the minister, with his great ability, to begin to give all the details; and even though the members of this committee endeavoured to follow the evidence as closely as possible, I question whether any one of them could being to answer all the questions which have been put to us this evening. I do not pretend to say that I could answer a good many questions; but, after carefully following the evidence, I am satisfied that the policy being pursued is bringing about the best results possible, taking a broad and wide view.
As regards the question which has caused so much discussion, hon. members have read about it in the newspapers; the magazines also have printed a lot of material, and we investigated the subject. We have not fully covered the ground, and we frankly stated so. We criticized the Royal Canadian Air Force for not keeping better records. We also referred to the sensational and extravagant statements made by one of the witnesses. I recall that one of the words used in the original report was struck out. We endeavoured to make it just as fair for one as for the other; in other words, we presented a very reasonable report.
I am sorry to have taken up so much time, but I thought that as chairman of the committee I should put on record these few words.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I feel that War Assets had an awful lot of material which they do not think is saleable but which is probably quite saleable to-day in Canada, and I do not think an attempt is being made to sell a great

Supply-Demobilization
part of this material. The conclusion to which I came after visiting one of War Assets branch offices, and having looked at what they are marketing in the United States, is that there is a great deal of material which is marketable, but in the belief that there is no market for some of this stuff it is being put aside and assumed to be unsaleable. I mention as one specific instance the Merlin carburettor. One might think there was no appreciable market for an expensive and intricate piece of material like this carburettor, but it has been found that there is a market, and an extensive one, among people who have home machine shops, among mechanics who want bits and pieces from this intricate piece of machinery which is no longer used and for which, I believe, $50 apiece is paid. That is the sort of thing which suggests to me that we are not taking full advantage of our opportunities to sell this equipment.


Gordon Graydon: Some reference was made by my genial friend the senior member for Halifax to a remark I made in the house when the report was first presented. Having read the articles in Maclean's with a certain degree of care, not having been privileged to serve on the war expenditures and economies committee, and having listened to the report as presented that day, it seemed to me, and I think to a number of other hon. members who were not on that committee, that the committee did not come to grips with charges which were so sensational, so spectacular, and seemed to be so well supported by Mr. Brown in that magazine. I do not think the senior member for Halifax needs to feel so very much offended at the word "whitewash" as applied to a committee which had a government majority, for although I might perhaps suggest some other word, "whitewash" seems to me as good a term as can be applied to the committee's treatment of Brown's charges, because it was these to which I was referring. Looking over the committee's report, it seems strange to me-and although I cannot speak for any other member I still have the right to speak for myself-that the committee left Brown's charges very much in the air, with this exception. They picked out, as they thought, two or three of the rotten apples in the barrel but they never made any reference to the sound onesjeft; I mean those charges of Brown's which could be founded on fact. It seems strange to me that the committee should pick out a couple of charges, refute them, and then say:
Your committee's inquiry in this connection had not reached a stage where further comment on the evidence can be made, but your committee feels that what appear to be sensational articles should not go unchallenged.
That appears to me to have all the elements of whitewash and it may be that, even with my very convincing friend's arguments, the story in connection with this matter is not satisfactory. I -want to know what has happened to Brown's allegations. He has charges by the dozen against War Assets Corporation. Where are they dealt with?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Tell me one.


Gordon Graydon: I shall send to the reading room for Maclean's night now, because if the minister wants me to read it I will. I have no objection to putting it on Hansard.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Was his name Sherashevski or Brown?


Mr. WARREN:: Will the hon. member tell us under what name this Mr. Brown signed a similar article which he wrote for the Winnipeg Free Press and also what his real name is?


Gordon Graydon: I am not interested in names but in facts, and I suggest that at least the committee might have gone to the stage where they could go into Brown's charges and report whether they were right or wrong. I am in the position of everyone else in this house. I do not know whether they are right or wrong.


Mr. REID:: I nailed one of them as a lie.


Gordon Graydon: There are many of them.


Thomas Reid: Keep the record right. I nailed one.


Gordon Graydon: I will keep the record right. I am not attempting to be unfair in any way, but if in a flock of birds you bring down one, that does not mean that you have got rid of all the starlings in the country. The part of the report which I desire to bring to the attention of the committee, and which caused me to use the word "whitewash", is contained in the paragraph in which the committee says that it-
. . . had not reached a stage where further comment on the evidence could be made . . . but your committee feels that what appear to be sensational articles should not go unchallenged.
In other words, you challenge the articles and leave them in mid-air, and that is the basis on which I made my statement.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: We took his prize exhibit and placed it before the public, in which he stated that an $80 battery was bought for $5. We showed that it was a $14.68 battery, but he used the figure $80, and to repair that
540S
Supply-Demobilization

same battery it would have cost over $20. We leave it to any sensible person to figure the cost, respectively, to the country in the two cases.


Gordon Graydon: I am at a complete disadvantage in discussing further the details of the matter because I was not on the committee. Moreover, I speak from the point of view of the average layman who reads the article and wishes to know whether it is right or wrong, and I cannot find the answer. What the hon. member for York West has said deserves more than passing consideration. He refers to the question of the selling of various war assets material. Those hon. members who come from rural districts know what a lot of money can be realized out of auction sales. I do not care what sort of material it may be; to others it may be so much junk but to the purchaser it may be valuable. I have never gone to an auction sale when somehow or another, whether because of the spirit that prevails on such occasions or whether it is something that gets into one's blood, everyone did not want to bid. I believe that far too much war assets material has been perhaps discarded as junk or has been destroyed, as the evidence seems to have shown from time to time, when much of it could have been realized and turned over to the dominion treasury. I do not know whether it is too late, but I regard that as a constructive suggestion. After all, a dollar is a dollar, and we cannot afford to pass up any chances in seeing to it that 'the last cent is obtained from these things. What the hon. member for York West has said with regard to retail merchandising might more emphatically be said with regard to auction sales. I am a great believer in auction sales from the point of view of the seller, the man who holds the sale, and for that reason I think the government might properly consider the suggestion of a humble adviser like myself so far as rural matters are concerned.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I admit that high prices can be obtained at an auction sale, but the government is supposed to have a price ceiling. Suppose we had some automobiles in the field. We would get a tremendous number of bids and we might make money, but what about the man who paid above the ceiling price. He would prosecute War Assets. A tag must be put on, which is a ceiling price set by wartime prices and trade board, and then it becomes no action at all, because we receive far more bids than we can supply. It became, therefore, a question of drawing lots among the bidders to see who would get the article. That is inevitable if the government is to

obey its own price ceiling policy. It is common knowledge that an enterprising auctioneer bought up some old tractors in Ontario, took them to Manitoba and sold them at eight or ten times their value-I am toldi it was Yorkton, Saskatchewan. I believe the auctioneer actually bought one himself before he got through. A wonderful time was had by all. That is all very well, provided that no government agency is involved. My hon. friend will find, on reflection, that auction sales are not the source of revenue for the government which he may imagine.


Gordon Graydon: Perhaps the minister and I are thinking of two different things. I had not in mind those things which he speaks of, because I can understand that in some instances it would not be practicable to have an auction sale, but I am speaking of what is more less junk that has been destroyed and burned. I believe the government would have realized many hundreds of thousands of dollars if they had put up that material at auction in the usual way.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Nothing has been destroyed since the early days of War Assets, and nothing is junk that has any real value. A highly skilled technician with an engineering background can dig over a junk pile if he has ample time, as our friend seems to have had, and to a scientist that will mean something. He can make something out of it, especially since he has a workshop in his own basement, he says. Take a partly fabricated article which is nothing but junk until extra work is put on it. That can be made into something useful. But nothing there was junk. It is suggested that we have not sold all that we can sell. I agree. I do not think we have sold all our possessions, but we come to them as we can. We are selling these things which are perhaps most easily saleable and most required for the conditions of shortage that we are in today. I may tell the hon. member that' we have a good many hundred Merlin engines with carburettors tucked away. Some day or another we shall get around to selling these; but in any sales organization you must have a capacity and ours has been geared for sales of $20 million a month. We have been doing better than that in the last five months. It takes time to catch up. With all the articles that we have, I imagine we shall be selling war assets a year from now and that the present volume of sales will keep up from now to Christmas. After that, I think we shall be selling at a slower tempo, and will be able to merchandise all that we are not selling at the moment.

Supply-Demobilization


Agar Rodney Adamson: Do not underestimate the number of amateur mechanics in the country.


Frank Exton Lennard: A few days ago I asked the minister if an investigation had been completed by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police into the irregularities in the sale of war assets in Hamilton, and if he was prepared to make a statement. His answer was to the effect that he had not been given sufficient notice of the question, but that he understood a report had come from the police and, while he had not seen it, he understood that they did not recommend any prosecutions. Is the minister prepared to make any further statement?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I shall simply confirm that. The mounted police reported that, after a thorough investigation, they had not uncovered facts which would warrant prosecution.


Frank Exton Lennard: On good authority my understanding is that, after the Studebaker Corporation had bought the land and buildings of the Otis-Fensom war plant and had taken possession of the buildings, there was still considerable equipment in the buildings which belonged to War Assets, and which they wished to take over. Many of these machine tools, lathes, et cetera, or at least some of them, were disappearing nightly. The locks on the doors of the plant had to be changed to prevent further stealing from going on. My understanding is that, when they took over, there was considerably less in the building than the original inventory had shown. Is that correct?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Not to my knowledge. There may have been thievery afterwards, but the transactions for which the two young airmen were suspended were violations of the regulations of War Assets. The payments were " recovered, and, as I say, after a thorough investigation the police were able to find no transactions which warranted prosecutions.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: When the senior member for Halifax was speaking he mentioned the sale of air force boots at $12.50 a pair and praised War Assets Corporation for selling them at that price. Some time ago a return was tabled in my name and, if I remember correctly, it showed that thousands of pairs of air force shoes were sold at $6 up to $7.20, but only about three pairs were sold at $12.50.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: I quoted the retail price as advertised by Eaton's and Simpson's, I think.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I am quoting the price at which War Assets sold the shoes. There were only three pairs sold at $12.50, and they were sold to individuals.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: We are talking at crosspurposes. I cited the retail price to the consumer by the retailer. The hon. member is talking about the price charged by War Assets.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: No, I am talking about the retailer because these were sold to individuals, and they were members of different departments of the government.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I am wondering when this item "termination of contracts" will be terminated so far as the estimates are concerned. In 1945-46 we voted $175 million for this item. The regular estimates for this year which were passed this evening showed $50 million. Here we are over a year after the war is over and the supplementary estimates come out with an item of $25 million for termination of contracts. I am wondering whether these are lifetime contracts, ten year, contracts, or when we can hope to see the end of them. I should have thought that more than a year after the war is over, all contracts for war materials would have been terminated. Can the minister tell us if this is the very last of these "termination of contract" votes that the committee will be required to vote?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I cannot tell the hon. member anything of the kind. If he thinks it is possible to terminate about $14 billion worth of contracts in a few months he had better try it himself. Certainly -we shall be terminating contracts for the next six months and shall be very glad to get finished up by then. We have dealt with this item before, and I explained that it is a revote of the money which was voted last year and which was not expended within the limitation fixed by the fiscal year. Therefore let us treat serious matters seriously and not be facetious about contract termination which is a bit of a job and is getting the full-time attention of the largest and most skilled staff that we have been able to train.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Far from being facetious about it, I am quite concerned.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Do not let it worry the hon. member's head.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I still fail to understand how this item of $25 million appears in the supplementary estimates. It might well have been a revote in the regular estimates, but these are supplementary estimates which come down over a year after the war is over.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Supply-Demobilization
[Stage Direction]
Demobilization and reconversion-
942. Emergency shelter - administration- further amount required, $750,000.
['I still fail to understand how this item of $25 million appears in the supplementary estimates. It might well have been a revote in the regular estimates, but these are supplementary estimates which come down over a year after the war is over.']
Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I notice in the evening press an article which states that the minister met a delegation of homeless veterans on Saturday. The statement which the minister made was certainly not the sort of one which should have been made at this particular time. The item states that the reconstruction minister's statement to the 150 homeless veterans on Saturday was that housing in Ottawa was a civic affair. It goes on to state that last night there was strong criticism from civic authorities. The article mentions some of the slogans which were carried. Here are some of them: "We want diversion of materials to veterans' housing", "homes before theatres, stores or bowling alleys". These suggestions were quite constructive. I understand that some months ago the minister passed the buck to the municipalities to determine priorities, but my information is that the municipalities have no authority to withhold permits from individuals who wish to build privately when they comply with city standards.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I will correct my hon. friend there; we gave them that authority by order in council.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: My information from the municipalities is that they cannot turn down an application.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Your information is wrong.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Why are they not doing it?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: Ask them.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: In Ottawa we have materials going into bowling alleys, theatres and whatnot, and the veterans claim that they cannot get the materials.


James Sinclair: That is for the city authorities to decide.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: It is not being accepted by the city authorities.


Mr. CHEVRIER:: They grant the permits.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: The minister's parliamentary assistant represents one of the city constituencies. If that is the situation, then he should work in closer cooperation with the civic authorities and clear this matter.


George James McIlraith: It takes two to
cooperate.
	*


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: The article goes on as follows:
Controller McRae said:	"From now on it's
the government's responsibility." The city was in no position to engage in a large-scale housing plan that might be temporary and result in unsightly slums when the houses were no longer required.
'It is a situation which became complex before it was recognized; but it should have been recognized before it became too complex to handle. And the government was in a better position to anticipate it than the city was."
Controller Goodwin said:
Ottawa had no more land for housing projects. Site for 400 houses on Carling avenue at Meri-vale road had been acquired by the city, but there is no place in Ottawa now for another project of that size.
He said it was easy to say that the city had only to ask the government for houses, but getting them was another matter.
And so on. I discussed this matter at the beginning of the session. I pointed out that it was time the minister took responsibility in bringing the provincial and municipal authorities together so that it might appear as to whose responsibility it was. Here we are with a situation all across Canada much the same as was experienced here on parliament hill on Saturday. These men, veterans-of two wars, some of them with their wives, children and friends, paraded to parliament hill to appeal for assistance. One of the slogans read, "Where are those homes fit for heroes to live in?" And another, "Have you ever tried to live in one room with a child?"
I suggest that the minister should make a statement as to what he proposes to do in this matter. He has now had more than a year since V-E day.
I have had a question on the order paper for weeks, and it is still there as question * No. 1:
What is the total value of construction permits which have been issued to breweries and distilleries in Canada since V-E day?
It is not that I am quarrelling with hon. members who wish to consume the products of these breweries and distilleries. But I think we should have some sense of priority, and some sense of values. I cannot see any good reason why permission should have been given for such large commitments for breweries and distilleries, at a time when housing continues to be Canada's No. 1 problem. Would the minister make a statement at this stage as to what hope he holds out?


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Some time ago I spoke in the house about building going on -motion-picture theatres and things of that kind. I said at that time that these buildings required workmen, supplies and so on. The

Supply-Demobilization
mayor of Toronto said, according to the radio, that is was not up to him, and that he could not help it. The minister said that certain areas had been allotted certain supplies, and that they go to various areas in Canada. How are the supplies allotted? Is there a metropolitan area; are the supplies allotted to the city of Toronto alone, by priority, or are they allotted to outlying districts? Do. mayors and reeves have to make up their minds as to whether this or that shall be built?


George James McIlraith: Since I have been
mentioned by the hon. member for Mackenzie, perhaps I should say something about the delegation which came to parliament hill on Saturday. There are one or two things which should be cleared up. I must say now that I cannot answer the statement in the press tonight, because I have not yet had an opportunity to see to-night's paper. I hope in due course to reach that stage.
First of all, hon. members can judge as to size of the group, in numbers, which marched up to parliament hill. I think it will be found that there were about sixty persons. In any event, nothing turns on that. I took the precaution, however, of making a count of them as they came up.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: The paper says there were 150.


George James McIlraith: Yes, I know that. However, I took the precaution of counting them, and I believe some others did. However, I do not think anything turns on that, in any event.
There is no doubt that many of these veterans are in difficult circumstances so far as housing -is concerned. I happened to know personally a considerable number who were in the parade, and to know something about their personal circumstances. When they reached the front of the building they were received and, as a matter of fact, a subcommittee from among them, numbering about eight or ten persons, came to my office. The minister was kind enough to come in and receive them, along with the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Veterans Affairs, the hon. member for Ottawa East, and myself.
The statement about housing being a civic affair and that the city could have all the houses it wanted arose out of a question asked by a tenant in one of the present wartime housing houses on Carling avenue. This tenant recently arrived in Canada, for the first time; and when the question, was raised some discussion developed because the other members in the delegation did not have any housing, and had somewhat different ideas as to
what was needed. The question arose as to why we built only 200 last year on that particular project. An answer was given and an attempt made to explain that wartime housing houses are built in conjunction with and at the request of the municipality, and that the municipality has the responsibility of making the request. That is how the whole subject arose.
I saw the morning paper and I must say I was somewhat startled by the headline on the story. There was nothing wrong with the story; it had to mention only part of what went on, and not all of it; But the headline was a bit startling, to put it mildly. Those veterans had all sorts of difficult problems. One of them, who was a personal friend of mine, had come from the old country in 1934 to join the Canadian merchant marine. He served on the great lakes merchant ships in the summer, and on ocean-going vessels in the. winter. He never came to any town or settlement in Canada at any time prior to the war. Upon the outbreak of war he enlisted in the navy, and has a most excellent record of service. During the war he, was fortunate enough to marry an Ottawa girl. He has now applied for housing under a wartime housing project. Priority was given to persons who had residence in Ottawa at the outbreak of the war, so that he was shut out.
Mr. NICHOLSON; Where would his residence be?


George James McIlraith: That is a rather nice academic point. I have sent a memorandum to see if I can get a better opinion than my own as to where it would be.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: On the high seas, I suppose.


George James McIlraith: In any event, it presents a difficult problem. Most of these people were very much concerned with finding what we would probably class as emergency shelter, and finding it quickly. But to say that the minister was passing the buck to the municipality is just a lot of nonsense. And to say that there is any lack of cooperation between the hon. member for Ottawa West and the municipality is a lot of nonsense, too. There has always been close cooperation. The problem is one of a serious nature which requires all the cooperation which all elected representatives, in whatever capacity they may serve, can give it. I do not know that I can say more about it.
There was some reference made to the authority to issue or reject building permits. The municipality was given authority to reject permits for such things as theatres, bowling alleys and the like.
Supply-Demobilization


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: On what ground?


George James McIlraith: That has been explained in the house several times. I think it is fair to say that the construction control was difficult to administer. There always was the cry, "We in the local area know what is needed to reestablish our men. We know when someone wants to be reestablished in business. How can you, in the central government in Ottawa, know what should be done in other parts of Canada?" Jurisdiction was given to the municipalities to decide, bearing in mind the needs of those particular municipalities. Many of them did not choose to exercise their power, although I believe some of them did. I understand that some municipalities do exercise the power and do reject applications for building permits for such things as have been under criticism to-night. Others do not.
But to say that there has been a passing of the buck on the municipalities does not quite meet the facts.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Will the minister explain what is provided in this vote of $750,000?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This is supplementary to item 504. Before I have finished, I shall ask the committee to consider that vote, which appears in the Department of Finance. The hon. member will recall that in the early part of this year emergency shelter was a function of the Department of Finance, and it was transferred to the Department of Reconstruction about May. The vote of $1,547,000 was the estimated cost of assisting the cities and municipalities to provide emergency shelter. That is, temporary shelter to take care of the period until permanent housing could be supplied. This is used for fitting up buildings such as barracks, or redividing staff houses, and work of that kind. A good deal of it is associated with the universities. It was estimated that $1,547,000 would be sufficient, but the demands have been more substantial than was anticipated, with the result that we are asking for an additional $750,000 in the supplementary estimates, bringing the amount up to $2,297,000.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Could the minister give a breakdown according to provinces?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am sorry, but I have not a breakdown according to provinces. In fact, I have not much of a breakdown at all.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Could this item stand?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I should like to get it through to-night if I could. I think the division between the provinces is fairly good. Where-ever there was a lack of housing, funds were supplied. In Vancouver thev were spent

largely in connection with the Vancouver hotel, and on the prairies they were spent in assisting the municipalities or the provinces to convert temporary buildings into habitable quarters.


Stanley Howard Knowles: You have a special item, No. 499, for the Vancouver hotel.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes; it is handled by Emergency Housing.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Has the minister the figures for the various universities?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, I have not that, either.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: This item calls for more than $500,000, and I think the minister should have a little more information to give us before he asks us to pass it. Either item 504 or item 914 should stand.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Why not let item 504 stand, and then the Minister of Finance can deal wit it?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Passing the buck again.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No; it is in his estimates and I suppose he is responsible. I should like to get this through so that we could finish the reconstruction estimates.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Do I understand that you are not taking item 504?


Clarence Decatur Howe: How would it be if we let these items go through, and then I will undertake to get a breakdown and give it on a suitable item later on? After all it is getting toward the end of the session.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Are you calling item 504 to-night? .


Clarence Decatur Howe: I should like to.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: When could we have this information?


Clarence Decatur Howe: On the orders of the day some time before the end of the session.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: How are supplies allocated to the different parts of Canada?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Equitably.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I would not be surprised, but I cannot understand why moving-picture theatres and bowling alleys are being constructed when there is such a great need for materials and workmen. As far as my part of the country is concerned, it is not a question of a mayor or reeve making the decision. I asked about this before and I gave a couple of illustrations. I told of a man who would be able to take in two or three

Supply-Finance
more families if he was able to get some material. There should be some basis on which this emergency housing was handled, because the whole thing is beyond my comprehension.


Clarence Decatur Howe: People have been in the habit for years of buying materials on a certain basis and, as more material is available, proportionate allocations are made to those dealers. A dealer in Toronto may .have a customer in Hamilton, and I do not see any reason why he should stop selling to that customer. That is beyond the power of those responsible for the distribution. A man living in one of the Yorks may be a customer of a dealer in Toronto, and he should be permitted to continue to deal with him. It is not a matter of distribution; it is a matter of retailing material after it is distributed by the wartime prices and trade board. There is that weakness, but the fact is that before a bowling alley or a moving-picture theatre can be built, some civil official must sign a permit permitting the building to be built. He has the power to sign it or not sign it. If he decides not to sign it, there is no recourse for the man who has applied. That is all there is to it, they just sign it as I suppose they feel "they can secure the material.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I suppose they think it would be in competition with the next municipality?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It might be that.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: There should be some classification in connection with this thing.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: With the housing situation as critical as it is, I think we should have more than a statement by the minister on the orders of the day. These are two rather large items, and I think the minister should1 make a further statement, or he should allow this item or item 504 to stand.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I spoke on housing in this house for three hours and there was a full-fledged debate afterwards.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: The situation is still unchanged.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That was two or three weeks ago, and I do not remember hearing my hon. friend's voice in that debate, so that I assume he was on holidays. I can assure him that the debate did take place and I think the longest speech of the session was on housing.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I was unavoidably
absent at the time, but the situation is still critical.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I should like to make the speech all over again for the benefit of my hon. friend, but I suggest that he read Hansard instead.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I have asked for the
breakdown of this item, and I think the item should stand until we get it, because the matter would not be debatable on the orders of the day.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is all very well to let items stand early in the session, but these are, we hope, the last two days of the session. I suggest that we let this item go through, on the understanding that I will see that a breakdown is put on Hansard.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Demobilization and reconversion-
501/. Emergency shelter -[DOT] administration,
Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I suggest that this item stand until to-morrow.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Housing branch-
60. To provide for payments of amounts owing under guarantees given by the Minister of Finance pursuant to item 55 of schedule A to the Appropriation Act, No. 6, 4945 (and pursuant to corresponding items in previous appropriation acts) to approved lending institutions in respect of loans made for the purpose of financing the conversion of existing houses into multiple family houses, such payments to be made out of unappropriated moneys in the consolidated revenue fund, $1.
Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Could the minister
explain what this dollar is to be used for?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This item is just to preserve the legal authority to provide for payments of amounts owing under guarantees by the Minister of Finance pursuant to item 55 of schedule A to the Appropriation Act, No. 6, 1945, and pursuant to corresponding items in previous appropriation acts, to approved lending institutions in respect of loans made for the purpose of financing the conversion of existing houses into multiple family houses. The item preserves the right of the Minister of Finance to meet obligations incurred under the act, for which appropriations will be asked of parliament. There are none at the moment, but we have put in the item of $1 to keep it alive.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
DEPARTMENT OP TRANSPORT Marine service-
878. Construction, maintenance and supervision of aids to navigation, including salaries and allowances to lightkeepers-further amount required, $132,500.
Supply-Transport
Mr. ZAPLITNY:: This item refers to aids to navigation. Does it include dredging?


Lionel Chevrier: There is no dredging under this item.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marine service-
879. To provide for Canada's share of the cost of the north Atlantic ice patrol, $8,000.
Gordon Graydon: I wish to raise a question with respect to this item for the north Atlantic ice patrol, in view of the relations at present existing with respect to the arctic region of our dominion. I am not sure which minister I should address, but I take it that it is the Minister of Transport. Would he indicate just what the north Atlantic ice patrol does and whether there have been any recommendations from the joint Canada-United States defence board with respect to the extension of the patrol into the arctic wastes about which we have heard so much in recent times.


Lionel Chevrier: This vote has nothing to do with any ice patrol in the arctic zone. The patrol covers the north Atlantic by virtue of an international agreement made in London in 1914 and extended in 1929, by which some thirteen powers agreed to share the cost of patrolling the north Atlantic during the season [DOT]of ice menace. Canada's share was established at three per cent of the cost, and this item of
SS.000	is to cover that.


Gordon Graydon: Why was this item not included in the main estimates?


Lionel Chevrier: During the war years this vote was discontinued, and it was only after the main estimates were prepared that it was brought to my attention by the officials of the department.


Gordon Graydon: Is there any thought of undertaking any work in connection with the arctic region at all?


Lionel Chevrier: Not to my knowledge.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Railway service-
881. Prince Edward Island car ferry and terminals-To provide for the construction of an icebreaker-railway - car-highway - vehicle-passenger vessel for the Prince Edward Island car ferry service-capital-further amount required, $200,000.
Mr. McLURE:: I should like to have an idea from the minister what this supplementary vote of $200,000 is for. Is it for the completion of the ship? In the regular estimates there was an item of $1,000,000 or so, and I should like the minister to tell us how 
far work on the ship has progressed. Is this for the finishing touches on the ship? Will she be finished and ready for service this fall?


Lionel Chevrier: In the main estimates there was an item of $2,000,000 to provide for payments under the contract, and this $200,000 is an additional payment to keep the contractor in sufficient funds under the terms of the payment clauses of the contract.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
568. Air services (commitments, $29,855,1,10), $118,124,753.
Mr. MASSEY:: I think the members of the committee as a whole, regardless of party, realizing the world situation at the moment, would like to have a brief statement from the minister on the present position of the regular forces of the Royal Canadian Air Force, its numbers and the immediate plans. I suggest that it might, save a lot of questions if the minister would make a brief statement.


Colin William George Gibson: The R.C.A.F. during the past six months has progressed rapidly with demobilization, with the result that to-day we have a strength which is less than our estimated post-war strength. That means that we have demobilized rapidly. We have not taken in recruits as rapidly as we should have liked, but we have set a high standard and recruits have been coming in satisfactorily up to the present time. Those who have been accepted for the permanent force number 9,122. Our total strength is 15,373, of which 1,515 are members of the women's division, who will be going out by the end of this year.
Our forces overseas have been repatriated rapidly, and at the present time we have less than 500 serving overseas. Some of them will be remaining there on courses and on duty, and the remainder will eventually come back to Canada.


Denton Massey: Are any of the 9,122 permanent force new recruits?


Colin William George Gibson: New recruits are 1,313.


Denton Massey: And in what general trades? The non-technical trades?


Colin William George Gibson: They are of all different trades.


Denton Massey: But non-flying list?


Colin William George Gibson: Nonflyers.

Supply-Defence


Denton Massey: And, of these 15,373, how many does the minister anticipate will remain in the permanent force or are likely to be accepted in the immediate future?


Colin William George Gibson: The number that has been accepted up to the present time is 9,122. There are 4,736 officers and airmen who either have not made up their minds, or will be released on priority, or are at present on retirement leave.


Denton Massey: It is not anticipated that many of the remainder among those in the permanent force and those at present on strength will remain in?


Colin William George Gibson: It is not anticipated that a great many of the 4,736 will remain, no.


Denton Massey: Could the minister give the committee some idea of the rate of enlistment, the permanent force to be-presumably- 17,000?


Colin William George Gibson: Between 400 and 450 a month are being enlisted at the present time.


Denton Massey: Is that rate increasing?


Colin William George Gibson: It has been increasing quite considerably in the last month or two.


Denton Massey: How many of these recruits are coming from the air cadets? Approximately, of course.


Colin William George Gibson: I cannot give a definite figure as to the number of the 1,313 that have come from the air cadets, but I know that we have enlisted a considerable number.


Denton Massey: The minister will not misunderstand my purpose in saying this, that it seems to me that when recruiting first started many air cadet squadrons throughout Canada were not sufficiently canvassed or sufficiently informed, and many of the young air cadets did not know quite what their position might be; they were not close to recruiting centres in many cases and could not get the information they might have had. What steps have been taken to get in touch with the air cadet squadrons of recent date?


Colin William George Gibson: I admit that we did lose touch with the air cadets to some extent when recruiting for the air force was discontinued during the war, when we had a surplus to requirements, but since that time we have been maintaining very close contact with the air cadets. We are taking them to summer camps; we are providing flights for the
boys who go to camp, and even training some of the outstanding air cadets to fly, so that our cooperation with the air cadet league and the air cadets is now very close.


Denton Massey: Supposing we look at it from the point of view of a permanent force of 17,000, using a round figure, which I believe is correct, is it not?


Colin William George Gibson: It is 16,100.


Denton Massey: Well, 16,100;-that leaves
7,000	recruits to be added to the service to build it up to strength. The minister anticipates, then, that, at the rate of between 400 and 450 a month, it wrill take a year before the Royal Canadian Air Force is up to its peacetime strength-	.


Colin William George Gibson: Yes, I do.


Denton Massey: -with new recruits?


Colin William George Gibson: With new recruits and ex-airmen. In the meantime we are having to employ civilians in some of the trades until we have the right type of recruits enlisted or re-enlisted in the service.


Denton Massey: When does the minister anticipate that flying training will be resumed in all branches of aircrew?


Colin William George Gibson: I anticipate that it will be in full swing next year.


Denton Massey: Not until next year?


Colin William George Gibson: Not until next year.


Denton Massey: The minister stated that there were 500 all ranks still overseas. Does that include those who are attached to the Royal Air Force and their various units throughout the world?


Colin William George Gibson: We have no more attached to the Royal Air Force except a few who are attached for liaison purposes. All the others have been returned to the Royal Canadian Air Force.


Denton Massey: The lads who are in the more remote places, India and Ceylon and other places, have been recovered, have they?


Colin William George Gibson: They
have been recovered, yes.


Denton Massey: May I ask the minister further: it seems to me that the statement he makes to the effect that it is anticipated it will be a year before the Royal Canadian Air Force is up to its peacetime strength with new recruits brings up the question of air cadets rather strongly, for I think any one of us who has had any contact with the service will realize the contribution which the
Supply-Dejence

air cadets not only have made but can make to the permanent force. What steps, other than what the minister has stated already, are being taken by the Royal Canadian Air Force to encourage air cadet squadrons throughout the coming school academic year?


Colin William George Gibson: Well, we are supporting the air cadet league. We supervise their training, we provide them with assistance in their training; we supply instructors. Our ambition is to have the air cadets limited both in numbers and in squadrons, so that the squadrons will be efficient and well trained. If we accomplish this purpose we shall have a waiting list of boys who want to get in, rather than have large numbers of partly trained boys. The success of that has been demonstrated in the past, and we feel that the support we are giving the air cadets and the training which they get in the summer are having a very good effect. This is increasing the keenness of the boys, and they realize that they have a future in the air force.


Denton Massey: I appreciate that, because so many of the smaller municipalities have benefited so materially through the air cadets and the contribution they have made to the community as well as, in turn, to the air force. But I am not a little concerned at what the minister states to the effect that it will take virtually a year of recruiting at its present rate to build the force to its peacetime strength. The minister is, of course, well aware that subsequent to hostilities, in August of last year, many of the V.L.R's. went out very quickly. Those who had ideas about remaining in the service and that sort of thing were very much disappointed about the length of time it took before,any'announcement was made in regard either to the interim or to the permanent, or, as it is called now, I believe, the regular force, with the result that many outstanding types of all ranks and in all branches and trades left the service, taking their release in order to become civilians again. In many instances these lads have had difficulty with rehabilitation and finding their feet in civilian jobs. We know of some instances where lads have endeavoured recently to obtain information in regard to the permanent force and have claimed that that information has not been furnished in detail. For example, if they were released to the reserve as squadron leaders or as flight sergeants, would they return to the permanent force a flight lieutenants or flying officers, or as sergeants or corporals, or what would their ranks be? Many of these questions remain

unanswered. Is full information now available to any applicant who falls within the age limit and who apparently-on paper, at least-meets the requirements of the permanent force?


Colin William George Gibson: There was difficulty at first in giving anybody definite' information as to the rank or position he would hold in the regular force. After all, we had numbers of officers applying to remain in the force, far in excess of our vacancies. To secure our list it would not have been fair to take them on a "first come, first accepted" basis, and we had to find out the approximate total of officers who were applying; we had to review their qualifications, and then decide what ranks we would be in, a position to offer them. Consequently, some officers whose records and qualifications were outstanding might be retained with the ranks they held at the end of the war; other officers might be required to revert to a lower rank; some officers we might not be able to keep in commissioned rank, and they were given an opportunity to enlist in one of the trades of the service. But that did take time, and consequently many who had applied for a permanent commission could not get a definite answer for several months. The list has been gone over thoroughly, and at present there are still some officers who are on the B list and who are being notified as to whether they have been accepted or not and what ranks they will hold.
With regard to the remarks made about our taking time to bring up our force to the required number, we could possibly recruit up to strength in a few months if we desired to lower our standard, but we have a high standard and we are endeavouring to maintain it at that level, because we believe that in the long run it will be beneficial to the air force to do so, instead of lowering the standard in order to get numbers rapidly.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: The minister says the intention is to maintain the standard. Does that take into consideration young men who enlisted from the collegiates and had not an opportunity to go through university, but who probably would have done so except for the conviction that they were enlisting to fight for their country? They enlisted at the age of nineteen or twenty. If the minister's idea of a high standard is university education, then I would think that young men coming out of university four or five years from now would have a preference over lads who enlisted when the war broke out and who, in my opinion, ought to be given a preference

Supply-Defence
over newly graduating students from universities. The boy who enlisted at the age of nineteen and served four, five and almost six years overseas comes back too old to go to university. He retires from the flying corps with a marvellous record, having risen from the ranks to the rank of officer, and he should have a preference over boys who are graduating one, two and three years after the war. If the standard requires that one be a graduate from a university, then it is too bad, because it will reflect on the young men who had not time to go to university because they were too busy defending their country in the fighting force all over the world. What is the standard?


Colin William George Gibson: I am glad to be able to reassure my hon. friend. The educational standard that has been set for new entry is not required from those who have had active service during the war.


Denton Massey: How many recruiting establishments are there in Canada, or recruiting centres, and where are they?


Colin William George Gibson: There is a recruiting centre at every command and at air force headquarters, and each command is responsible for the steps taken to secure recruits throughout the command. In the various commands we have had recruiting teams going throughout the municipalities interesting young lads outside the centre where the air command headquarters is located.


Denton Massey: The question has often been asked me, "Where can I go -to enlist?" The location of the centres is not well known. Only in the last few hours a lad asked me whether he should go to Ottawa or Trenton or Toronto to enlist. There seems to be great lack of publicity in connection with the recruiting now going forward; and in view of the remarks already made to-night, which I will not repeat, respecting the length of time it will take to recruit the force to full strength, I should like to know what consideration is being given to the stimulation of recruiting by way of advertising or by other means.


Colin William George Gibson: We have been running a series of advertisements in the daily papers, giving the particulars of various trades in which vacancies exist, and in each advertisement the address of the nearest recruiting centre is published. Besides the publicity we have put out ourselves in the air force, there will shortly be a joint recruiting campaign for the three services which will set out the particulars of service in the three branches of the armed forces, so that those
who wish to join may see the relative advantages of each of the forces and can decide accordingly which they wish to select.


Denton Massey: I know that some time ago a letter was sent to virtually all those who had been transferred to the reserve, or released from the service, calling attention to the permanent force. It was a good letter. But that was a general letter and obviously it went to all personnel. On the other hand, the minister is aware that, particularly in the early days of demobilization, there were some peculiarly outstanding types in all branches and trades and of all ranks whom we lost to the service in view of the fact that the plans for the permanent force were still in the embryonic stages and nothing definite could be stated. The minister is well aware that in some cases lads have reestablished themselves in such a way that they are now permanently in the civil occupation into which they have gone. There is quite a percentage of these lads who are feeling their way back into "civvy" street not too happily, and I am sure the air member for personnel knows where these lads are and, further, who they are, which is more important. . Has any thought been given to getting into contact with these lads and providing for them, within the establishment, a place for continued service? I am confident that some of them can be reclaimed and, in many instances, they may be recruited as the backbone of the minister's new service. Has any consideration been given to that?


Colin William George Gibson: I quite agree that during the war the policy of the force was to release men, particularly aircrew, who have had considerable service, and in that way a considerable number found their way back into civilian life before they had an opportunity of finding out, or before we ourselves knew the constitution of the post-war air force. We have endeavoured to communicate with them and give them an opportunity of applying to rejoin the services. A considerable number have come 'back, and others we hope to get, because it is. certainly realized that some of the men with outstanding service in the war had qualified to be released and did go out before the war ended.


Alexander Maxwell (Max) Campbell: Did I understand the minister to say that there were a thousand odd new recruits being recruited into the air force, or are they from the veterans?


Colin William George Gibson: There are 1,313 new recruits who never served before.


Alexander Maxwell (Max) Campbell: What categories are they in? Are they in categories that could not be filled from the ranks of the veterans?
Supply-Defence


Colin William George Gibson: They are young recruits coming into the service learning all the various air force trades, and they are in the ranks of the air force. We did not have enough veterans of the war in the other ranks desiring to remain in to take up all the vacancies that we had available.


Alexander Maxwell (Max) Campbell: Does the minister say that he is turning away outstanding veterans and putting raw recruits in the service?


Colin William George Gibson: No, I am not saying that we are turning any away; we are delighted to have them, but we have not had sufficient applications from veterans to fill up the other ranks of the post-war force. Consequently we are to-day at a lower strength in our post-war force than we hope eventually to have. We have not sufficient applications from the "other rank" veterans to fill our vacancies.


Alexander Maxwell (Max) Campbell: The minister had an application from one of the most outstanding flyers in Canada and he turned him down; he was not given a position in the permanent force.


Colin William George Gibson: That may be true of the aircrew. We have many times more applications for aircrew that we have vacancies. It is in the other ranks,' in the ground trades, where there is the shortage.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I have had1 many applications from ex-service men who wanted to get into the permanent force as flyers or as aircrew. Can the minister give an estimate of the number who applied and1 the number taken in? Fifteen or twenty men made application to me and I do not think any of them, got in.


Colin William George Gibson: At the present time the number of those who have applied is somewhere in the neighbourhood of nine thousand, and 1,681 have been accepted for aircrew.


Agar Rodney Adamson: A ratio of six to one?


Colin William George Gibson: Our officer establishment is 3,461, and up to the present time we have accepted 1,681.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Let us get these figures straight. Nine thousand have applied and 1,681 have been accepted. The total strength is 2,400?


Colin William George Gibson: It will eventually reach 3,400.


Agar Rodney Adamson: You have another 1,800 to go.


Colin William George Gibson: Yes.


James Sinclair: The minister has said that he intends to start air training again next spring. Perhaps he can tell the committee of the way in which he intends to recruit aircrew, whether as permanent force or special reserve or short term commissions, auxiliary air force, or as long-term commissions, or how.


Colin William George Gibson: Sixty per cent of the junior officers coming in are on short-service commission, a five-year basis. Of that sixty per cent, I think ten. per cent will be granted regular long-service commission.	[DOT]


James Sinclair: What sort of gratuity does the minister intend to pay the short-service commission men who give four or five years of the best years of their early life to the service?
Mr.	GIBSON	(Hamilton	West):	On retirement they get as a bonus a month's pay for each year of service.


James Sinclair: How does that compare with the R.A.F. system?
Mr.	GIBSON	(Hamilton	West):	I think
they have a cash bonus which is higher than we propose paying to-day.


John Ritchie MacNicol: What is the maximum age at which airmen are taken into the air service?
Mr.	GIBSON	(Hamilton	West):	Is that
for aircrew?
Mr.	MacNICOL: Yes.
Mr.	GIBSON	(Hamilton	West):	I shall
have to get that information.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: I understood the minister to say that the required strength of the air force is approximately 3,500 and that, so far, approximately 1,600 applicants had been accepted?


Colin William George Gibson: Yes.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: I happen to know young men who had matriculated and who rose from the ranks during the war. Many of them cannot get into the air force now to satisfy their own desires. They did good service on bombing expeditions over Europe. They have applied to the government to go back as flying officers, and they have been told that their applications could not be accepted. I can hardly believe that some of these young men who have made their application to be taken into the air force are not of the standing necessary for the Canadian air force to-day. So far as they know, they were discharged A-l physically. They have a splendid active war record. No

Supply-Defence
explanation is given to them as to why they were turned down. They are simply told that their applications had been declined. I should certainly like to know the standard of qualifications necessary for an ex-officer of the Canadian air force in order that he may re-enlist in the air force which now requires approximately 2,000 additional men to fill the ranks. I think it is an awful slap in the face to young men who served their country during the war to tell them that they cannot come up to the standards which are required to re-enlist, when they are young men who were in a force of which Canada was so proud during the war. I know these men. They were not discharged physically unfit. I have seen their names mentioned in dispatches. I have seen the number of active flights, and active bombing expeditions that they took over Germany. They have matriculated. They have served in the ranks as officers and they have been mentioned in dispatches. They have made many flights over Germany. There are still 2,000 vacancies to fill, and these young men are the kind of men who are capable of filling them. What requirements must they have?


Harry Grenfell Archibald: I should like to ask a question with regard to the permanent force men who contribute to a pension scheme. I have had some of them approach me and tell me that if they want to take their discharge they would lose all that they have put into the pension fund. Has it been arranged that they can get their money out on discharge?


Colin William George Gibson: Under the new act which has been passed, those who retire get a bonus for the number of years that they have served. Previously they did not get anything if they retired before they had completed their twenty years; that is, if they retired of their own volition, but now they get a bonus for each year's service repaid to them on retirement.


Harry Grenfell Archibald: Would that bonus
amount to the amount that they had paid into the pension scheme?


Colin William George Gibson: It is considerably in excess of what they paid in.


James Sinclair: that, if they are to attract the best boys at the ages of nineteen, twenty or twenty-one into the air force, as short-term officers for aircrew they must give them some assurance that, when they leave at the ages of twenty-five or twenty-six, they will have sufficient cash in hand to establish themselves in civilian occupations. If that is not done the department will not get the type of young men they want. This is one case where it would certainly be very cheap economy to be niggardly, not so much in what is being paid to them, but in connection with the gratuities which they will have at the end of their service.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: The young men I am referring to are now at the age of twenty-one or twenty-two, and apparently they had sufficient training to fly aircraft during the war. We still should be able to use their capabilities in training. I certainly agree with the hon. member for Vancouver North that the inducement of $100, on retirement, for each year served, is far from adequate to induce any young, red-blooded boy to join the flying force. He should have something to compensate him for his excellent service, and a necessary service to the country in these days. The condition in this country, and the condition throughout the world at the present time is one which should encourage young men of the right calibre to go into our flying corps. We do not know when we shall need them, any more than we did in the latter part of 1939.


Denton Massey: I was discussing the matter of recruiting and, although we got away from the subject for a while, we are back on it again. I certainly subscribe to what was said by the hon. member for Vancouver North in regard to the attraction that should be developed for the recruit. In the first place, the minister will realize that the type of lad he is after is the type of lad who is the cream of the crop; he must be. If he comes into the R.C.A.F. at the age of eighteen, nineteen or twenty, he will be leaving it on short-term commission when he is twenty-four, twenty-five or twenty-six. Those five years are pretty valuable years. We hope he will not be required for combat duty. If he is not, and he is retired, he has given in the service of his country, just as if it were at war, those valuable years. We can therefore afford to compensate him, and compensate him well. But he wants to know what that compensation will be.
I should like to say to the minister, with all the earnestness of which I am capable, that the more definite the information can be that will be given to the public at large, the more rapid his recruiting will be. One of the great difficulties up to the present time-and I am

quite sure the minister will understand what I mean by "present"-has been that there have been a few feeble advertisements. I have seen them. They are small and, if the minister will forgive my saying so, they are not attractive. I say that as a former advertising man. They bring the name of the Royal Canadian Air Force to the attention of those who see it, but they are not particularly original, nor are they particularly good. Furthermore, they say very little.
In other words, the lad may be attracted by the advertising, and it may set him thinking. But it does not send him to a recruiting officer, saying, "I want to enlist." It sends him out to get further information. In other words, the minister relies upon the recruiting officer to sell the young man the idea. He is not sending the young man to the recruiting officer to enlist. In this way the burden is on the recruiting officer, because the lad has to go there first.
I believe there is a story to be told about the Royal Canadian Air Force in peace time, a story which is more attractive than perhaps many of the lads realize to-day, I believe the plans the minister placed before the committee this evening are good plans. But are they definite? Who knows them? If you are to recruit during a'war, that is one thing. If you are to recruit during peace time, that is another thing. The minister is in a position of-and I use the word in quotation marks- "selling" the Royal Canadian Air Force. He has the grandest air service in the world to sell, and it can be sold. But I feel definitely that a clear statement must be made in regard to what the lad's position will be when his training will start and, if he is going to enlist for aircrew, when his air training will start. He wants to know that. I realize the difficulty in the way of coming to that definite decision. But on the other hand, before we get either the quality that we want, let alone the quantity, that story will have to be told. So I urge upon the minister, with all the earnestness of which I am capable, that the story be told quickly. I am quite sure his 400 or 450 a month will increase rapidly.
While I am on my feet, I shall mention another matter. As the minister is probably aware, I can speak only for one release centre, namely No. 4 release centre. At that centre there were attached to the staff some eighteen officers as liaison officers, working in connection with employers. Those eighteen officers circulated through that portion of Ontario into which the releasees from No. 4 release centre went. The results of those contacts were good. If they did not already have it, employers were given a copy of the employers'

United, Nations
guide, which was an excellent publication. It was explained to them in some detail by the visiting officer. Further, the employer was chatted with in regard to his treatment of returned personnel. The net result was that the national employment service were definitely interested in the work we were doing, and finally there were attached to the national employment service two officers on the permanent detachment to work in conjunction with that office.
I know from first-hand information and first-hand contact that the results of having these two officers in the national employment service office in Toronto were most beneficial, since many of the ex-service men seeking employment felt much freer talking to someone in uniform who spoke their language than they did to a civilian who was simply there to see about their possible future jobs. Has the minister given any consideration to extending that particular service to other employment centres in Canada?


Colin William George Gibson: That is not a matter which comes within the air force, that is under the Department of Labour, and anything like that would have to be arranged by that department.
Item stands.
Progress reported.
It being ten minutes after eleven o'clock, the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Tuesday August 27, 1946