1946-03-20

Hon. J. A. MacKINNON (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a brief statement in connection with wh-eat.
Wheat

The government will 'Continue the present initial payment of $1.25 per bushel basis No. 1 northern in store Fort William-Port Arthur or Vancouver for another crop year up to July 31, 1947. There will be no over-all restriction on the deliveries of wheat during 1946-47, although temporary delivery quotas will probably be used in the early part of the marketing season to distribute local elevator space as evenly as possible among the producers. Delivery permit books will be used again.
Discussions are continuing with regard to other items in the 1946-47 grain programme, and further announcements will be made as decisions are reached. These announcements will include the prices to be paid for oats, barley, flaxseed, rapeeeed and sunflower seed in the western provinces and for winter wheat grown in Ontario and marketed in 1946-47.
To cover one of the points in the new food programme, a statement will also be made soon on the procedure to be followed in an effort to expedite the delivery of wheat in western Canada. This will be along the lines of encouraging immediate delivery of wheat.
The hon. member for Rosthern (Mr. Tucker), the hon. member for Maple Creek (Mr. McCuaig) and the leader of the opposition (Mr. Bracken) have advised me that they purpose asking questions today with regard to the payments on the participation certificates for the 1943-44 wheat crop. I have this statement ready and I am taking advantage of this opportunity to make it. I believe it will at least cover, as far as I am able to do so at this moment, the information sought by these hon. members.
The payments on the participation certificates for the 1943-44 wheat crop will be started by the Canadian wheat board in June of this year. The 1944-45 barley equalization payments will be made in the month of May. Both of these payments apply to the prairie provinces. The payments on the 1944-45 Ontario wheat equalization fund will begin in May.
While the accounting and auditing on these payments are well advanced, it is not possible at this date to announce the amount of each payment to be made. That announcement will be made just as soon as possible.
May I also take this opportunity to state that I am fully aware of the anxiety existing, particularly in certain parts of western Canada, for the earliest possible payment of these wheat participation certificates. The hon. member for Maple Creek asked if it would not be possible to select the most needy areas in western Canada for prepayment. We have discussed that suggestion with the wheat board,

and have been advised that it is not possible to make payments in one district in advance of the general payment across western Canada, but -that when payments are being made in June it will be possible to make the first cheques payable in those particular districts. The matter of getting out these payments is purely a physical one, a matter of staff and space.


Mr. BRACKEN:: The question I sent the minister a while ago was prompted by the urgent requests of those interested in the matter. I gather from the minister that the dates he has mentioned are the earliest at which it is practicable to have the payments made. In that event I suppose we shall have to accept the situation, and I want to thank the minister for giving us this information.



VETERANS LAND ACT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. A. TUCKER (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Veterans Affairs):: Yesterday the hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. McCullough) asked a question of the Minister of Veterans Affairs, as follows:
In view of tihe urgency of increasing 'agricultural] product ion- and of the early and satisfactory reestablishment of veterans on farms, would the minister give immediate consideration to allowing veterans not coming under the Veterans Land Act, but who wish to become boraa fide farmers, the same priorities and discounts for farm machinery as those who now come under the Veterans Land Act?
The Minister of Veterans Affairs has no control of farm machinery which is not purchased for the use of veterans being established under the Veterans Land Act. In the early months of 1945 arrangements were put into effect whereby a certificate of identification was provided by the Veterans Land Act administration to establish the agricultural bona fides and service with the armed forces of persons not being established under the provisions of the Veterans Land Act. The farm implement industiy undertook to give preferred treatment to veterans in possession of such certificates. According to my information this undertaking has been implemented as far as available supplies and farming machinery would permit.
Discounts available to veterans being established under the Veterans Land Act derive from bulk orders placed by the director of the Veterans Land Act many months prior to delivery dates and are direct sales to the government.

The Address-Mr. Burton
Discounts to veterans not being established under the Veterans Land Act are solely at the discretion of the implement industry but it is the information of the director of the Veterans Land Act that many implement dealers have in fact granted discounts to veterans in possession of certificates issued by the Veterans Land Act administration.
According to present indications the farm tractor equipment ordered by the director for delivery in the spring of 1946 will be insufficient to meet requirements of veterans being established under the act this year. Consequently it is very unlikely that any such equipment can be released by the director for other disposition by the machinery companies.



MAPLE PRODUCTS

[Stage Direction]
RATIONING AND PRODUCTION On the orders of the day:
Mr. R. W. MAYHEW (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance):: Yesterday the hon. member for Peterborough West (Mr. Fraser) asked if there was any chance of the government easing the rationing of maple syrup or maple products in order that production might be increased.
The answer is that there is no intention of removing maple syrup from the ration this season. This decision is supported by recommendations for the continuance of rationing and other controls which have been received from the representatives of the maple syrup producers and processors. As in previous years, the coupon value of maple syrup has been doubled for the duration of the active producing season; in other words, until May 31 maple syrup can be procured at the rate of one gallon for two sugar-preserves coupons. The ration regulations for 1946 will leave the producers and consumers in the same position as in 1945.
There is no indication that the ration regulations have curtailed or will curtail production.



CANADIAN ARMY

[Stage Direction]
POLICY IN CONNECTION WITH WEARING OF KILTS On the orders of the day:
Mr. LESLIE A. MUTCH (Winnipeg South): I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence; I did not have an opportunity to give him notice. Will the minister assure the Canadian people that it is not proposed to abolish the practice of the wearing of the kilt in the Canadian army?
Hon. DOUGLAS ABBOTT (Minister of National Defence):: I realize, Mr. Speaker, that this is a question of urgent public importance. Personally I would very much regret it if the wearing of the kilt were to be abolished. The answer to my hon. friend's question is that the wearing of the kilt will continue to be autnorized for walking out purposes, but that, as in the other arms of the service, battle dress will be worn for operational duties.



GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Tuesday, March 19, consideration of the motion of Mr. Fernand Viau for an address to His Excellency the Governor General in reply to his speech at the opening of the session, and the amendment thereto of Mr. Bracken, and the amendment to the amendment of Mr. Coldwell.
Mr. J. W. BURTON (Humboldt):: Mr. Speaker, at the adjournment last night I was referring to how badly the capitalist system had failed us in the years prior to the war, and to the fact that eventually it would break down completely and lead the people of the nation to inevitable disaster. I also stated that we did not have to go to the extreme right or to the extreme left, but that there was a middle way. Should there be any doubt in the minds of hon. members as to the path I intend to follow, let me hasten to assure them that I have always believed in moderation in all things. With that same thought in mind, thousands of people from all parts of Canada banded themselves together under the banner of the C.C.F., which they themselves wove. Together they planned and are continuing to plan that middle way, step by step. Their Ultimate goal is the common brotherhood of man under the fatherhood of God.
I also said there was no hope of the capitalist system serving us properly in the future. Apparently, by its attitude, the government does not believe that. Again I could bring many witnesses to prove my case. However, time permits only the calling of one, and that, by the way is a friend of the government. I should like to quote from a pamphlet issued by the Canadian federation of agriculture, entitled "Principles of post-war reconstruction for agriculture" in which they quote Mr. Donald Gordon, chairman of the wartime prices and trade board, as having said:
Selfish and private interests roust be ruled out completely and the competitive system must be replaced with one which is based entirely upon the criterion of maximum production . . .
While I have this pamphlet in my hand I should like to continue and quote what the Canadian federation of agriculture had to say on the same page:
.110
The Address-Mr. Burton


Mr. GARDINER:: I did not mention any reduction programme. I indicated there has been a programme for increased food production throughout the war and that programme is continuing.


Joseph William Burton: At the same time the minister went to great pains and attempted to take great credit for what he had done in the past. I would agree that he deserves some little credit, but would suggest that there are others who deserve a lot more.
In connection with the reduction programme I think I should tell a little story-and it is a true story. For years it had been my practice every spring to buy four cans of gopher poison to be distributed so as to prevent those rodents from destroying too much of my crop. This spring, when the announcement of the reduction programme was made, I had already secured my four cans. The customary procedure is to mix a spoonful of the poison with some wheat or oats, leaving it in places where the gophers may find and eat it. That is the end of the gophers and they do not destroy any further crop. I had laid out one can of the poison, after which for some reason or other I had to go to town. While in town I ran smack up against a

The Address-Mr. Burton
poster on which were these words, "Less wheat in 1941 will help win the war." This, it states, was published by the authority of the Hon. J. G. Gardiner, federal Minister of Agriculture. You know, when I returned home I simply did not have the heart to lay out those other three cans of gopher poison. For a while I rebelled at the idea of reduction; as a tiller of the soil it went against my grain to think that less of anything in the nature of food could be a blessing. Eventually however, like thousands of other farmers, I fell into line.
To-day, reading these words in the speech from the throne, that hunger, privation and suffering have become the lot of millions, the few dollars gained by reduction of wheat acreage remind me of the thirty pieces of silver. To the extent that I benefited from the minister's ill advice, just to that extent I accept my share of the responsibility. But may I remind you, Mr. Speaker, that for several years my colleagues and I endeavoured to warn the Minister of Agriculture, and the government to which he belongs, of the crisis that is now confronting us. If time permitted I could quote speeches made in the house-yes, even back to the time I sat in the Saskatchewan legislature. But our warnings went unheeded. From time to time the minister even attempted to ridicule us for our fears, and made light of our suggestions.
Let me quote further from the speech from the throne:
Of world problems demanding immediate 'action, the most pressing is the provision of food ho those peoples facing acute shortage and, in some regions, widespread famine.
The chance of a peaceful reconstruction of the world depends on food. The shortage at the present time is very great. The problem, moreover, is not only for the next few months, but also for the next few years. Unless the need is met, grave disorders, endangering peace itself, must be anticipated.
The government is seeking by all practicable means to make 'available for export the maximum supply of foodstuffs. Every encouragement is being given1 to increasing production. The gravity of the situation demands, on the part of the people of Canada, a united 'and wholehearted effort.
Let me call special attention to that last sentence, and emphasize the necessity of a united and whole-hearted effort. I agree with that in full, and I can assure the government, on behalf of my colleagues and myself, and I believe on behalf of the great majority of the producers of foodstuffs, that there will be whole-hearted cooperation on their part.
The preceding paragraph in the speech from the throne states that every encouragement is being given to increasing production. That is
so far from the truth that were I to repeat what most farmers have to say about it, my language would certainly not be parliamentary. Suffice it to say that instead of every encouragement being given to us to increase production, quite the oontrary is the fact. So vital is this question that I should like to place on the record a resolution which was passed unanimously on the seventh of this month by the Saskatchewan legislature. It reads:
That this legislative assembly of 'Saskatchewan pledge the support of the people of Saskatchewan to the hungry peoples of the world in the vital battle of bread now being fought, and request the governments of Saskatchewan and Canada, respectively, to make ia special effort to increase production of foodstuffs to meet this emergency, and to encourage the utilization of the adequate farm labour supply now made available through demobilization of the armed forces, members of which are only too anxious to work in this new and important battle.
Furthermore I would add that the Saskatchewan minister of agriculture, Hon. I. C. Nollett and his department are going all out on an increased production programme. They believe in displaying some action, not just merely using words. The only action that counts at a time like this is to make it possible for the farmers to produce every pound, of foodstuffs that their farms are capable of producing. Should there be any one so deaf to the cries of the hungry, permit me to read again these few lines:
Of world problems demanding immediate action, tbe most pressing is the provision of food-
And again:
Hunger, privation and suffering, have become the lot of millions.
The only worth-while action that can be taken to meet the situation is an all-out production programme, but if the farmers are to accomplish the task before them they must have more just and equitable treatment than they have had as a rule in the past. We realize also that if the farmers are to win this battle of food they must have the protection of a long-range programme. What do the farmers want in such a long-range programme? I have numbered their desires as follows, but not necessarily in order of preference.
1.	An over-all agricultural policy that will give stability to the various branches of that industry in all parts of the country.
2.	Adequate floor prices with a proper relationship between the different products they have to sell.
3.	Prices for all farm products must bear a fair relationship between them and the cost of the things the farmers need to buy.
The Address-Mr. Burton

4.	The right to negotiate from time to time, through their respective boards and organizations, the adjustment of prices for their commodities so that they will at all times receive a fair share of the national income.
To meet the needs of the present and to give to the farmers that sense of security and stability which they so urgently require, I suggest the following:
(a)	The encouragement by the government of an all-out production programme to help raise the nutritional standard of the Canadian people and do our full share in helping to feed the people of Britain and war-ravaged countries in Europe.
(b)	A dominion marketing act to establish commodity marketing boards under producer and consumer control, with power to regulate the assembling, transporting, grading and processing of live stock products, fruit, dairy products, poultry products, et cetera.
(c)	Present ceiling prices plus any subsidies at present in effect to be the floor price on all farm products for the next ten year period, unless changing conditions warrant an increase or decrease after proper negotiations by the respective boards.
(d)	Abolition of the Winnipeg grain exchange; the continuation of the Canadian wheat board, and the inclusion of coarse grains under the act.
(e)	Amendment to the Income War Tax Act so that the farmer, his wife and children shall not be penalized for their long hours of toil.
(f)	Prevention of regional discrimination such as the recent increase in the price of petroleum products in the west.
(g)	Amendments to the Prairie Farm Assistance Act in order to make it a dominionwide crop insurance act which will cover all types of agriculture.
(h)	Extension of the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act to all parts of Canada, with regional branches giving special attention to soil conservation.
I should like to deal with each of these points, but I see my time is going by. A number of my colleagues will deal at greater length with the different points I have laid down. I should like to refer, however, to the last one, the extension of the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act to all parts of Canada, with regional branches giving special attention to soil conservation. In this connection I should like to quote what the president of the Canadian federation of agriculture had to say about soil conservation:
Since the soil is the basis of all food production it is the greatest national 'asset we have. The security, not only of those who till the soil, but of ail the people, depends upon how well it

is oared for, and how widely it is used. Therefore, a programme of security for agriculture in the post-war years mustj of necessity, include a long-range programme for soil conservation.
Such a programme will be given its proper place in our national economy when it is generally recognized that money spent to save the soil should not be regarded as'a subsidy to the farmer but tas a national investment for present 'and future generations.
The problems of agriculture are of such importance that no time must be lost in solving them. The standard of living in this country depends upon the tiller of the soil. While that has been true in the past, never has so much depended on a proper solution of these problems. When hunger, privation and suffering have become the lot of millions, we realize that every effort must be made to remove the handicaps which prevent the farmers from properly fulfilling the mission of their noble calling, namely, the feeding of the human race. I have no hesitation in saying that the adoption of the proposals I have just made would be a big step forward in helping the farmers to take their proper place in our national economy. Too long have the farmers of this country been discriminated against. Too long have they been exploited. As never before they are determined to see to it. that they receive a fair share of our national income, that they be allowed to take their right place in our national life.


Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Reconstruction) :: Mr. Speaker, in rising to take part in this debate I wish to join with previous speakers in expressing regret at the departure of Lord Athlone and the Princess Alice and to express my appreciation of the work that they did while here. As Minister of Munitions and Supply perhaps I saw a side of their activities that others may have overlooked. They were tireless visitors to war plants. I can say that walking through a war plant is a tiresome business. I have done it occasionally, but the governor general and his gracious consort visited almost every war plant in Canada at least once. Their visits invariably resulted in an inspiration both to the management and to the workers, and had a great deal to do with the pleasant relations that were maintained in the war plants of this country. I am sure every Canadian feels a sense of loss at their departure and we all wish them good health and happiness in the future.
I should like to say a word of congratulation to the mover (Mr. Viau) and the seconder ' (Mr. Winters) of the address in reply to the speech from the throne. I was not in the house when their speeches were made but I have read them with great interest.

The Address-Mr. Howe
To-day I wish to speak particularly with regard to the remarks of the leader of the opposition (Mr. Bracken) to the effect that reconversion had bogged down and that the labour situation in Canada to-day is similar to that of the early 1930's. It has always been a mystery to me why members of the opposition feel that, in describing the present and future situation in this country, they must invariably picture both in a gloomy light. I have listened to speeches in this house predicting wide-spread unemployment, not only after the war, but during the war.
I have never heard anyone express the hope and expectation that after the war we would have reasonable employment conditions in this country.
The first two or three years of the war were occupied by parliamentary committees sitting continuously devising public works in great numbers which could be put into construction immediately after the war to take up the inevitable unemployment that would come at that time. In 1943 I ventured to make a prediction of my own. Speaking before the Canadian club in Toronto I predicted that this vast accumulation of public works would not be needed. I pointed out that every returned man would not be a construction man. I pointed out that the expansion that was taking place in industry would find means of absorbing war workers and the returned men without excessive resort to public works. I was accused by a very large portion of the press of Canada of being a super-optimist. I was called an optimist at first, and then I was promoted to superoptimist. I never was as optimistic as the present position would justify.
I have recently made a trip to the Pacific coast, the first time I have been there in morq than six years. I used to live in western Canada. I lived there, and practised my profession there, for some twenty-five years. I have lived in Saskatoon, Calgary, Vancouver, Regina and for many years in Port Arthur. I have seen western Canada in good times and in bad times, and I think I know what good times look like and what bad times look like in that country. But I have never seen western Canada in the state of prosperity in which it is to-day. I tried to meet in my travels a fair cross-section of each of the communities I visited, and I came away from western Canada convinced for the first time that perhaps our efforts toward reconstruction are meeting their objective.
There is a good deal of work in reconstruction that does not meet the eye. When V-E day came there was a cut-back of about thirty-five per cent in munitions production,
so that we could have a more or less gradual change-over from war to peace production in certain of our manufacturing plants. But on V-J day there was a complete cut-off of all war contracts except in the few cases where examination indicated that there would be more salvage value by completing production than in cutting it off. Before a war plant can change over to a peace-time plant, many things must happen. The surplus inventories in the plant must be moved. An adjustment must be made on the contract. There must be a cut-off and an adjustment made of the amount due the contractor and proper means found of paying the contractor. Those adjustments relate to several thousand contracts and the work involved is tremendous. I worked fairly hard during the war years, but I never worked as hard in my life as I have in the period since V-J day, and I think that is true of the staff of' my department
The termination of the contracts is handled by the contracts settlement board. It has a large staff. That staff goes into each factory, makes a rough determination of the amount due, arranges for immediate payment for a portion of it so that the contractor can have funds to start his reconversion work, and then follows that up with auditors who make the final adjustment. In the course of that adjustment the profits that have been made by the operation are studied and, if the profits seem excessive, a renegotiation is undertaken. That may seem a minor operation, but I can say to hon. members that these renegotiations to date have resulted in a recovery to the crown of some $365,000,000, of which about thirty per cent represents money that would not have been recovered through taxation in the ordinary course.
The custody of surplus materials from war plants, as well as the custody of all war materials surplus to the requirements of the armed forces, is handled by War Assets Corporation. That corporation is responsible for movement of materials out of the plants, for holding custody of government-owned machinery and equipment, and for disposing of that equipment in a way that will make the maximum contribution to the cause of reconversion. About 4,000 men are now engaged in the custody of equipment, in moving equipment out of plants and arranging for storage, and in guarding the equipment pending its sale. The total staff of War Assets Corporation, including the custodian branch, now exceeds 5,000 men and women. That staff has been built up within a very short time. The task of War Assets Corporation really began shortly before V-J day and is growing in size as each day passes. To date
The Address-Mr. Howe


Mr. LOCKHART:: Would the minister
permit a question? I do not like to interrupt him.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, no.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: I would just like to ask him-

The Address-Mr. Howe


Clarence Decatur Howe: The absorption, of veterans and war workers has been facilitated by a steady process of reconversion. A survey of plants previously engaged in war production indicates as of March 1 that, of those faced with a reconversion problem, slightly over half had now completed the reconversion process. Of the remainder, fifty per cent expected the process to be complete in six months, and seventy-five per cent by the end of the year. Apart from reconversion work some forty-five per cent of the plants have completed or are undertaking modernization or expansion programmes. Of this group, only a small proportion-ten per cent-have already completed their programme, while around sixty per cent anticipate completion of their expansion work by the end of 1946. The foregoing would indicate that a very considerable volume of employment is still to come from reconversion and expansion which have not yet been completed.
There is, in addition, an impressive number of new establishments coming into operation to produce for the peace-time market. Numerous firms still report shortages of tools, equipment, materials and skilled labour as factors which are temporarily retarding production and employment. While increased employment in manufacturing can henceforth be anticipated with the continued progress of reconversion and the normal seasonal upswing, even greater proportional increases can be expected in construction, agriculture, transportation and some of the service trades. With the unprecedented demand for consumption and investment goods in Canada, together with the urgent food and material requirements of other countries, the number still to be discharged from the services-some
220,000	at March 1-should be readily absorbed, while steady reduction in the number unemployed can be anticipated once the spring and summer expansion gets fully under way.
So far as the present labour situation is concerned, if it is an unhealthy situation I do not think the people of this country are aware of it. Certainly in western Canada I saw no indications of unemployment; I was told that there were people unemployed; but I was told frequently that a large number of employers were short of men and unable to obtain the class of men that they required.
The shift of men back to peace-time employment is as difficult as was the mobilizing of man-power for war. Many of the skills used in war time are abolished. For example, we had over 100,000 people in aircraft production; today, I suppose, the employment in that
industry numbers less than 10,000. To employ those men at equivalent wages means retraining. We are very short of men in the construction trades, and the training schools of the Department of Labour are devoting a great deal of attention to training men for that industry. A great retraining programme is going on, and only as that programme proceeds can we step up industries such as the construction industry, which has an unlimited field of activity and which must be expanded greatly to fulfil the requirements of the reconstruction period.
We have greatly expanded industrial production in Canada during the war years. The government itself spent $730 million in building new war plants during the war period. At the same time private industry spent $500 million in building plants of the same type for the same purpose. A great deal of fear was expressed that the end of the war would find empty factories. Nothing of the kind is occurring. Instead of its being said that wartime expansion is sufficient, industry is still continuing to expand.
In the fall of 1944 provision was made for the encouragement of further reconversion expansion by granting double depreciation to those who made capital expenditures of a type promising substantial industrial employment during the years 1945 and 1946. Those applications are filed for approval with the Department of Reconstruction. The result has been that to date about $270 million worth of industrial expansion has been filed for approval to be completed in the years 1945. and 1946. These projects are now under construction. The very much larger employment that will emerge when the plants are completed and in operation is before us.
For a time I was pleased with the rate of expansion. To-day I am rather alarmed by it. It seems to me that the expansion is coming too rapidly and that we shall face an insoluble problem of shortages of material as well as shortages of man-power when the programme now under way comes into full production.
The work of reconstruction is being helped in a number of ways through a number of agencies of the department. One of the most important is the agency of reconstruction councils. We have at least one council in each province. In two provinces we have two or three councils in each. It is the work of these councils to keep in touch with conditions in the provinces, to keep the department advised of requirements of materials and requirements of any kind. It is also the duty
The Address-Mr. Howe

of the councils to give every assistance to those engaged in reconstruction work in the province.
I found it very interesting to visit these councils and to discuss their problems. I was particularly impressed by one activity new to Canada, namely, the service being furnished in each province by the national research council. Attached to each of the reconstruction councils is a representative of the research branch. He is a first-class man, thoroughly familiar with the work of the research organization. He is available to discuss the problems of industry, whether from large industry or small, with anyone who wishes to discuss them. If he is unable to give the help immediately he refers the matter to headquarters. If it is a piece of research, that research is undertaken. If it is information that is in the library of the council that information is furnished. I may say that I think no government service of the kind is being taken advantage of more widely than this new service. It is a sort of introduction of Canadian industry to the national research council; it is also a contact between the council and industry which will be very helpful to both.
The success of our war programme was due largely to the work of the national research council, and we are all convinced that the council can continue to offer just as important help to industry in peace time.


Mr. PROBE:: May I ask the minister a question at this time?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have only a short time; would the hon. member mind waiting for another occasion?
Some very interesting devices are coming out of the war. The application of war inventions is just emerging as a factor in our peacetime work. One device that I think is particularly interesting is a radar set called No. 268. It was wholly of Canadian conception. The idea was worked out by a professor in the university of British Columbia. A prototype was built in the laboratories of the national research council and the equipment itself was built in Research Enterprises.
The equipment was adopted by the United Kingdom as the standard equipment for motor torpedo boats and was used in that capacity during the war. When the war ended the British admiralty adopted this device as the one most practical as an aid to navigation on ships. Today I think some two hundred of these devices have been installed in merchant ships in the United Kingdom, and we are installing the equipment on ships in Canada as rapidly as we can. We were in large production

when the war ended. Fortunately we had a number of sets that had not been shipped abroad, and these are being held here and used in our merchant marine. By the aid of this device the navigator of a ship on the foggiest night can see on a screen before him the shoreline nearby, the buoys that he is passing, the obstacles ahead, other ships and floating logs, just as clearly and to the same extent as he could see them from the bridge on a bright sunny day. Already this device is changing the whole character of navigation on the west coast of British Columbia, and I believe that undoubtedly it will be standard equipment in all ships as rapidly as the device can be installed. It is also a means of harbour control. With the device erected overlooking a harbour one can find the location of ships on a foggy night just as distinctly as on a sunny day. Using the device the harbourmaster can direct the ships to their moorings as well in fog as in sunshine.
A similar device is being placed on aeroplanes, so that both marine navigation and air navigation are being made vastly safer and more flexible as a result of this one application of a war-time device to a peace-time service.
I am giving the house only a sample. Similar applications are being made all along the line. Through the help of the research council I am certain that war-time inventions will play an increasingly important part in the reconversion period.
I come now to the matter of housing. There has been some question as to the number of housing units that were completed in 1945. I have given two or three figures myself, each based on the best information I could get at the moment. But before I went to western Canada I asked the bureau of statistics to use its facilities to make a thorough count of the actual number of housing units built in 1945. This is the report I have received:
The dominion bureau of statistics has just completed a survey to ascertain the number of dwelling units constructed in the calendar year 1945.


Mr. FLEMING:: What is the date of the
report?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It came to my hand from the bureau two days ago. I doubt whether the report itself has been made public. I continue:
The survey included 623 cities, towns, villages and incorporated rural municipalities, niamely, *all municipalities in the twelve "greater cities'' of Canada; the remaining larger municipalities, mainly those with a population of five thousand and over; and a sample coverage of municipalities in the urban and rural groups with population less than five thousand.

The Address-Mr. Howe
From this survey it is estimated that around
44,000	dwelling units were built in 1945, of which some 30,000 were new building construction, and an additional 5,000 were brought about through conversions. It is also shown that about 36 per cent of the new dwelling units are located in the twelve greater cities; a similar proportion are in other urban centres, while the remainder, some 27 per cent, are located in rural municipalities. That is the best information I have to-day, and I think it as accurate information, as to the number of housing units built in 1945.


Mr. SKEY:: Were those all built by the government?
M,r. HOWE: Built by the government and every other agency.


Lawrence Wilton Skey: Whait percentage did the government build?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I could give that information with a little study, but perhaps the hon. gentleman would not mind letting me finish my remarks; after all, this is not committee of the whole.
The greatest building year Canada ever had prior to the war was 1929, when th,e number of housing units built was 34,000; so that the year which saw our greatest war effort and which brought the end of the war, was not a failure as far as housing was concerned when, as compared with the 34,000 housing units built in 1929, we were able to find sufficient labour and material to build 44,000 units.
Perhaps I could clear up some doubts about the lumber situation. There is a wholly incorrect impression abroad that Canada is exporting far greater quantities of lumber now than before the war. For the years 1934 to 1944 the average quantity of Canadian lumber consumed in Canada was about two billion board feet, and during that period about 48 per cent of the Canadian cut was exported. In the calendar 5rear 1945 only 41-5. per cent of Canadian production was exported, and a total of 2.860,000,000 board feet was consumed in Canada. It is expected that in 1946 the Canadian cut of lumber will reach 5,200,000,000 feet, the greatest in our history, and that well over 3,000,000,000 board feet will be retained in Canada. Surely this should be sufficient for all Canadian requirements. The export of items such as doors, millwork and flooring is totally prohibited; and although shortages of those materials continue, new sources of production are being or have been brought in, and everything possible is being done to increase production.
Some months ago building control was lifted. It was felt that, after the war ended, the difficulties of enforcement of building control would outweigh the benefits which would accrue from it. Black markets were developing, and those responsible felt that just as good results would be obtained without building control as were being obtained with it. It has now been found necessary to reestablish building control to some extent. Perhaps I should give a statement to indicate the exact extent to which controls are now being reapplied. Although good progress has been and is being made in increasing the supplies of building materials for the housing programme, many such materials are still in critically short supply. With a view to making the best possible use of available supplies a formal priorities rating has just been worked out for limited use. This has been done by the issuance of priorities office order No. PO-11, dated March 12. 1946. The new priorities rating is designed to assist in channeling the required quantities of building materials as defined in the order into government approved low cost housing projects in order that such projects may be completed as expeditiously as possible. With certain exceptions the order requires suppliers of building materials to make prior shipments of all purchase orders carrying the new priorities rating. Details of the new order, of interest to all suppliers of building materials in Canada, are now available.
Among other recent actions taken by the Department of Reconstruction and Supply to aid home building is the establishment of special procedures to assist individual veterans of world war II to obtain the remainder of building materials required to make ready for occupancy homes which are at least seventy-five per cent completed. I may say this is the first occasion on -which we have been able to lay dovrn a rigid procedure which could be followed by individual veterans building their own homes, as well as in the construction of homes for veterans under government auspices. Requests for such priority assistance may now be made to the priorities' officer of' the department on form PB-1046. No request for assistance should be made unless the veteran's home is at least seventy-five per cent completed, since this procedure has been set up specifically to expedite the completion of homes which have reached at least this stage of construction. We are making a special drive to finish homes now under construction by the end of April, and when we have accomplished that, the priority mentioned for veterans will be extended to veterans commencing new construction.
The number of homes that can be built to-day depends entirely upon the material that can be made available for the building
The Address-Mr. Howe

of such homes; and when I mention material I am not referring to lumber alone. Perhaps lumber is the least of our problems. I am referring also to the vast list of materials that enter into the building of a home, from hardware and plumbing fixtures to wallboard and all the great array of materials that are familiar to most of us. We have been taking active steps, and have had the benefit of the assistance of a committee of the construction association itself. We asked the construction association to give us their most experienced men to make an independent examination of sources of supply and advise the department on ways and means of increasing those sup-, plies. The reports are coming in as each branch investigation is being completed, and as those reports come in they are being acted upon. The valuable assistance of the association most deeply concerned with the enlargement of the supply is being very helpful in solving the supply problem. Supplies have improved greatly, though we are not yet out of the woods.
We expect a considerably larger house building programme for 1946 than we had for 1945, but there again I believe the number of houses to be built will be limited by the amount of building materials that can be made available. We are running into other shortages. It has been suggested that reconstruction has bogged down. If anyone had told me two or three years ago that the steel productive capacity of this country could be doubled to meet the requirements of war; that an industry which had never operated at more than sixty per cent of its then capacit.v, in pre-war days, six months after the end of the war would be operating at greater capacity than at any time during the war, and that in addition there would be a heavy backlog of requirements, I would not have believed it. For the last two or three days I have been sitting down with the steel controller to see what can be done.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but already he has ' spoken for forty minutes.


John Bracken: We will offer no objection if the minister is permitted to go on.


Mr. COLDWELL:: The minister's statement is of such importance that I think permission should be given.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I shall make my further
remarks as brief as possible. We have doubled our production of steel in the war years. We are producing more steel to-day than we ever produced during those war years. We are operating even our stand-by

equipment at full capacity, and we find it necessary to step back our export orders by months, to conform with our ability to produce steel.
In getting the work of reconstruction under way it seems to me I have had too many enthusiastic helpers. I asked for exports, and I think every producer in this country has felt I was speaking to him personally. We are in danger of attempting more than our physical resources will permit. So that, instead of encouraging further expansion we must now enter into a period of balancing our sales with our ability to produce.
Wrapped up with the problem of steel is that of coal. We have had some close calls in connection with obtaining sufficient coal during the war years. Steel production makes a very heavy demand upon coal in the form of coke. Having in mind the .fact that coal controls in the United States are being abandoned, it seems to me that the problem of finding sufficient coal for Canada for the next twelve months is going to be a major problem, indeed. Let no one think that because we have been able to keep sufficient coal in our bins to meet the situation during the war years the consumer may now relax and buy his coal at any time he chooses. If it was ever necessary for the consumers to fill their bins early, that time is now.
Then, as to base metals, as hon. members know, Canada is the greatest exporter of base metals in'the world. We bad vastly expanded our production of base metals. To-day one of the greatest shortages in the world is that of lead. It has become almost a precious metal, and is limiting production in a great many fields.
Zinc and copper are in the same active demand which maintained during the war, with the result that our base metals mines, with the exception of nickel, are called upon for full production. Nickel is a metal which enters largely into war production and while it is also important in peace time, its use is not as great in peace time as in time of war.
The most amazing situation relates to the production of aluminum. As hon. members know, during the war we multiplied, to the extent of about twelve times, our capacity to produce aluminum. I am told that the demand for aluminum to-day is such that it will be necessary to use almost Canada's full capacity to supply the needs of Canada and of other countries for that metal.
As I said before, I was accused in 1943 of being an optimist. If I had been attempting to predict Canada's position in a period

The Address-Mr. Howe
. six months after the end of the war I would have been, indeed, a pessimist when confronted with to-day's situation as it now appears. And even then I could not find anyone who was as optimistic as I was in that period.
My hon. friend has criticized the removal of controls. He stated:
The government's policy of decontrol is so slow and so lacking in skill .and foresightedness that the dangers of inflation increase.
His attack seemed to centre on price controls, which he said were, in peace time, laws against production; but his general statements appeared to embrace every sphere of the government's economic policies. As I read it, the burden of his extremely general and vague comment was that the remaining government controls were in some undescribed manner restricting production.
As Minister of Reconstruction, I have a very profound interest in this charge, and I think my hon. friend should state just what controls he has in mind, and just how they are restricting production. A certain amount of vague criticism of this kind has recently come to my attention. It is not always easy to track down. Sometimes it is honest and well-intentioned, and sometimes it is based simply on the selfish desires of a few people to be rid of controls, which prevent them from taking advantage of the great majority of citizens in these continuing conditions of emergency. Unless it is specific, it is seldom helpful, and it frequently plays right into the hands of those few unprincipled characters who hope to profit by a descent into economic chaos. I am sure that this is the last thing my hon. friend would wish to encourage.
The government is removing controls just as promptly as is feasible, in the light of its responsibility to maintain orderly economic conditions, and to protect Canadians from sharp advances in living costs. Many controls have been removed, some as long ago as mid-1944. Almost all the controls administered by the former wartime industries control board have gone, and the great majority of the restrictive production controls administered by the wartime prices and trade board have been rescinded. A start has been made on price decontrol, and both price control and wage control have been made more flexible. All controls are being continuously reviewed, with a view to their relaxation and removal at the earliest feasible time.
As Minister of Reconstruction, I am particularly concerned to see that production is not impeded by unnecessary restrictions. I am not aware of the existence of the needless
controls to which my hon. friend refers. Does he think that allocation of steel should be dropped in the present conditions of shortage? Does he believe that lumber allocations, which protect the Canadian supply of this material so vitally needed for housing, and which fairly apportions our exports, should be removed? Or is he intimating that rationing of meat should be eliminated, without which our desperately needed shipments to Britain and liberated Europe would be restricted, and domestic price control would be impracticable? Or is he simply objecting to price control, without which we should be in the throes of a violent inflation?
In regard to price control let me say this, because in my job of reconstruction I have fairly definite opinions about price control: It is very easy to say that price control is holding back production, without explaining how, or without paying any attention to what would happen to production if price controls were ineffective, or were dropped. It is easy enough to talk in general terms about unnecessary controls, to sav that price controls are laws against production in peace time, and then to qualify these remarks by urging the government not "to engage in rash efforts of decontrol." But what does my hon. friend mean? The government is moving as promptly as it can toward the ultimate removal of price control, without engaging in "rash efforts of decontrol".
I am sure that my colleague, the Minister of Finance, (Mr. Ilsley) will bear me out when I tell the house that a break-down, or a removal, of price control would be rapidly followed by extreme advances in the price level, and by particularly drastic increases in the prices of the very necessities of life-food, clothing and rentals. My hon. friend criticizes the government for not controlling the prices of houses-a type of control which presents enormous difficulties, and which the government of the United Kingdom, for example, whose housing problem is even more acute than our own, has not found feasible to institute, after very careful consideration. Yet, at the same time, when he says that price controls in peace time are laws against production, he can be taken to suggest that the Canadian people should not have any protection against soaring prices, for food, for clothing, for rents.
I do not have to emphasize the obvious fact that soaring prices would cause suffering and dislocation of our economic affairs. That is clear enough. But I do wish to emphasize that soaring prices would pare down the large demand for goods and services, on the maintenance of which our objective of high pro-
The Address-Mr. Howe

duction and high employment is based. The incomes, and the great accumulated savings, of the Canadian people would lose their purchasing power, and it would not be very long before the demand was insufficient to sustain the rising level of production in a number of directions. Then we should have a depression with its consequent unemployment, suffering and loss of income. To remove price control, or to ease it to the extent that it was not effective, would be simply to invite a wide boom and a severe depression. If my hon. friend imagines that the removal of price control is the way to reach and maintain a high level of employment and production, he is advancing a most unusual theory, a theory which the experience of other countries around the world, both to-day and in the past, provides no shred of evidence to support. But then he says that he would not urge rash efforts of decontrol. If that is the case, let him say just what controls are in his opinion restricting production. If he advocates their widespread removal, let him explain just how inflation and economic chaos are to be prevented.
This government is not maintaining controls because of any inherent liking for them. Not only do the continuing war imposed controls represent a heavy and difficult administrative burden, but they represent a degree of interference with economic processes which can only be justified in emergency conditions. But we are still faced with a real and urgent emergency in our economic life-the aftermath of the most destructive war in history. And while these conditions prevail the government cannot ignore its plain responsibilities to the Canadian people.
I had intended to cover one or two other subjects, but I feel I am imposing sufficiently on the time of the house. Let me say in conclusion that providentially Canada has emerged from the greatest war in history with a greatly expanded productive machine and with ,at least temporary prosperity. We are in the happy position of operating in an economy which is not inflated. It is an economy which allows us to produce and export and sell our products in every market of the world. I believe it is a balanced economy. I believe that a bushel of wheat will buy more goods in Canada than a bushel of wheat produced in any other country will buy goods in that country. I believe that the wages received by our workers will buy more goods in Canada than will the wages paid to workers in other countries buy goods in those countries. As I say, providence has given us a great inheritance at the end of the war. We have

come out of the war with a splendid reputation. The men in our armed services and the men in our factories have brought us to the attention of the world in a way that, I think, has given us a new place among the nations of the world. We have come out of the war in splendid shape; let us not fritter away that which has been granted to us.


Mr. GORDON GRAYDON (Peel):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to speak for a few moments, somewhat handicapped by the lack of a powerful voice because of a current malady which has struck some of us. I hope, therefore, that you, sir, and hon, members will bear with me while I make the remarks that I have to fnake.
This afternoon I shall deal largely with the question of external affairs, and that for two reasons. First, because of the fact that during the last ten months I have had the high privilege and honour, along with other members of the House of Commons and the public service of Canada, to represent this country at three world conferences. Second, because today the question of external affairs has reached into the homes and lives of the people of this dominion in a way that perhaps it never did in the past. The question of external affairs has assumed a position of vital importance in our whole national picture, an importance which perhaps we never thought it could assume in days gone by.
Canada has a great stake in her foreign, commonwealth and empire policy. She has a great stake in the questions of peace and war. After two great wars over. 100,000 Canadian men and women lie buried in other parts of the world as a sacrifice in the battle for democracy and civilization in which this country took such a noble pjirt.
I was a representative of Canada at San Francisco, then at the preparatory commission in London, and later as alternate delegate at the first general assembly. First, I think I should indicate to the house some of the improvements which I think might be made with respect to our Canadian representation.
One of those improvements is envisaged by the amendment which the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) said the day before yesterday was to be made to the Department of External Affairs Act, by which it is proposed that in the future we shall have a separate and full time minister of external affairs. This is a move in the right direction, and I heartily commend it on behalf of my party. We have been agitating and pressing for such a reform.
There was a distinct advantage in having a delegation such as we had at San Francisco, at the preparatory commission and, at the

The Address-Mr. Graydon
general assembly, representing as it did the three main political parties in this house. But, if I may say so, I think on other occasions the Prime Minister, without affecting the character of the delegation, could also bring in the fourth party, the Social Credit party to my left. Such a move in the final analysis would create better understanding generally of world problems.
There is a decided advantage in having the various political parties represented when this country is speaking outside of Canada. There is not only the advantage of having men of various political parties as members of the delegation; there is the advantage of giving to our foreign policy, as in Great Britain and other countries, an added continuity, and creating complete understanding on the part of every individual represented. It is a step toward having, as nearly as that is humanly possible, one voice for the Canadian people when they speak outside of Canada. For that reason I want to endorse the plan which has been so fully agreed upon by all parties in the house.
There will always be some differences with respect to policy-foreign, commonwealth, empire and domestic. It would be unthinkable that delegates to international conferences representing the various political parties should always have the same views on matters that arise for discussion. As a delegate representing my own party at the three conferences I know that from time to time occasions arise on which entire agreement cannot be obtained among the delegation, but I have always tried to exercise that sense of responsibility which I 'think is so necessary in matters of this kind. If there are differences among the members of the delegation, and there have been, the place to discuss them is within the delegation itself, or at home, and not wash Canada's linen on any public line at San Francisco or London. That has been the position most people having a sense of responsibility would have us take.
There was for instance, in the preparatory commission a matter which did to a large extent divide our delegates. It is a question I brought up in the house before I left for London and upon which I took a stand while there. I refer to the matter of the site of the united nations headquarters. I had always felt-I may be wrong, but everybody is entitled to his view-that Canada was the one place in the world where we might have expected the headquarters of the united nations organization to be located, and before I left for London I thought I had advanced in the house many cogent and powerful reasons for that view. It was one of the points upon
which the government and I failed to find agreement. In addition I did feel that the delegation ought to have taken at least a neutral position as between Europe and the western hemisphere if they could not see their way clear to giving complete support to the western part of the world. I point that out only to indicate that men sincere and anxious to do the right thing as they see it cannot always be expected to agree even in delegations representing this country, and I think the same is true of the delegations of other countries as well.
With respect to the question of leadership of the delegation itself, one of the reasons why I placed, before the house met, a resolution upon the order paper calling for a separate minister of external affairs was that I felt that it was not fair to the Prime Minister or to those leading the delegation from time to time not to have that close liaison which there naturally would be between a minister of external affairs and his officials. I want to make it clear that I am making no reflections upon anybody who acted in a leadership capacity to our delegation in London. At San Francisco, of course, the Prime Minister himself as Secretary of State for External Affairs headed the Canadian delegation, and I am not referring to San Francisco when I make these suggestions. But at the London conference at different times we had leadership from three or four ministers of the crown, and I thought it was obviously unfair to them to project them into the position of leadership when they themselves were not the ministers presiding over the departmental officials whose work they had to coordinate and supervise from time to time.
There is another aspect of the matter, and I hope that these will be taken as constructive suggestions, because from beginning to end they are meant to be such. There was the question of personal contacts with the representatives of the other countries at the conference, and in my opinion that is one of the major factors of importance at an international gathering. I think no one will agree with me there more completely than the Prime Minister himself. I am thinking more particularly at the moment of the San Francisco conference, which I attended strictly as an amateur in international affairs-and who is not an amateur considering the trends and turns that international affairs take? At the San Francisco conference there were five official languages and two working languages. Again, when the San Francisco conference opened, there was not one among that great gathering of international figures who could
The Address-Mr. Graydon

offer a single prayer to open the conference. Why? I understand now that it was impossible under the circumstances because so many religions were represented and the delegates worshipped so many deities. But this is the point I wanted to make. Despite the fact that so many different religions were represented, so many nations Worshipping not even the same god, and despite the fact that they did not speak each other's language, the surprising fact is that they were able to reach the measure of understanding which they did achieve. This seemed to me to indicate how important it is for the average representative of a nation to try so far as he can to make his personal contacts with the representatives of other countries.
I come now to the question of leadership of the delegation itself. If we had a man who had a full-time job as minister of external affairs he would have the opportunity of making these contacts at conference after conference, of making and renewing friendships and acquaintanceships in an effort to reach understandings; and after all, world understanding often finds its basis in the personal understandings between individuals amongst the different peoples represented. It seems to me that the really fundamental factor in world understanding is not to get an understanding simply among the delegates from different nations, or among the heads of governments, or among diplomats, but rather that the fundamental thing is to get a rock-bottom understanding between the ordinary common peoples of the world. This, it seems to me, is one of the things we must develop so far as it is possible for us to do so. I leave those ideas with the house with respect to the Canadian delegation. Seeing these things as I did I thought it would not be quite fair for me not to mention them here rather than in London, for the purpose of seeing if we cannot improve the representation of this country in the days that lie ahead. Let me say that this country stands high in prestige among the nations of the world. My idea is that we should make it stand higher still.
With respect to the united nations organization itself, one cannot have been at three world conferences Without having formed some opinions as to how it may be improved. As I have said on another occasion, it is impossible to think of UNO as a perfect organization; it cannot but be an imperfect organization in an imperfect worid. Nevertheless we must move towards improvement. I humbly hope that we shall not find the united nations organization becoming a sort of backyard debating forum for the world, and, when any acute

problems arise, having to call in the heads of three or four nations to solve them before UNO can move to greater things. That is not right. I think before such a situation can arise the united nations organization ought to take such steps as will prevent that coming about.
With this end in view, let me suggest that the general assembly, the security council, the economic and social council, the trusteeship council, and other similar bodies, should receive from the leaders of the nations the prestige which only they are in a position to give. The heads of both the little nations and the big nations should honour the meetings of UNO occasionally with their presence. In the general assembly, for some considerable time, one great country 'was represented only by its fourth ranking national leader. In another instance of a great power the second ranking national leader represented that country. I am not making any undue criticism in this respect. But if this country, Great Britain, the United States, Russia and other states intend to place their confidence and trust in the united nations organization, they should go the whole way in doing it. There is danger in half measures; and I fear that, unless the principal leaders of the nations, great and small, honour from time to time the united nations organization by being present, so enhancing its prestige by indicating their regard for it as the one organization for peace, it may become something less than this country hoped and determined it should be.
I have a further suggestion in this regard. At the San Francisco conference there was a generous representation of both sexes, of representative organizations and occupations. But in London-and for this Canada perhaps bears some responsibility in its own small corner- there were only three accredited women delegates I believe among the entire representation of the fifty-one nations. I believe everyone in this house will agree that, apart from those engaged in the very fighting fronts of battle, none bear a heavier brunt of war than do the women of the world, and there is no group in our society more interested than womanhood in the questions and problems of peace. I hope and believe that in the days which lie ahead that interest will be recognized in a more direct and concrete manner than it is to-day.
We have heard a good deal about world government. I was not here when eloquent speeches were made by the Prime Minister, the leader of the opposition (Mr. Bracken), the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. MARCH 20, 1946
The Address

Mr. Graydon
Coldwell) and others. I read those speeches and I agree that world government is a great ideal, but I would caution hon. members that it must be a gradual development, having in mind conditions in the world to-day. Nothing could be more hurtful to the chances of world peace than to project world government too quickly upon a world not ready for it. This does not mean for a moment that we should not keep it as a great ideal; for it is a great ideal. But before you can have a free world government you must have a free world press. Let us not move precipitately towards world government. Let us first consolidate the steps which have been taken at San Francisco, in the general assembly, and so on, but let us not regard the ideal as a solution of the problems of a world which is not yet quite ready for that step.
I come now to the question of Canada's position in world affairs. This country is in a position of vital importance, of course, both in peace and in war. Some representations have been made in the house respecting the Canadian army of occupation in Germany. With other delegates I had an opportunity of visiting that army and having Christmas dinner with the forces. I also had an opportunity of sizing up, in personal conversation with men from my own part of the oountrv, the province of Ontario, their sentiments with regard to the army of occupation. I came to two conclusions. One was that the government had a definite responsibility towards the Canadian army of occupation which it had not discharged. It kept this force too long in the dark with respect to its policy for the occupying of Germany. Time after time one had evidence of this in the unanimity with which the men demanded to know, in their own words, "what is the score?" The army heads were unable to tell them; the government itself did not announce its policy until serious unrest had occurred among the troops occupying Germany. I am of opinion that one of the chief difficulties in this connection was the absence of any clear declaration to the army of what the government's policy was, whether the men were to be kept there two days, two months, two years, or for the duration of the peace. As I saw it, the proposition seemed obviously unfair, and I was glad that the government finally made some announcement of policy.
With the kind of army we had in Germany, with everyone, except a small percentage, wanting to get home, a difficult position was created, as the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Abbott) well knows, both for officers and for men. Nevertheless it seemed to me, and this may be confirmed by those who are
better informed about the situation than I am, that, while those now in the Canadian army of occupation should be brought home, there should be some force, taken perhaps from those who are here and are desirous of serving in an army of occupation, that could properly undertake this job of discharging Canada's international obligations in this connection. I leave that suggestion as one which is perhaps worthy of consideration by the minister.
In connection with our foreign affairs policy I have felt that we shall always have to base that policy on the principle that this nation is still, and I hope always will be, part and parcel of the great British commonwealth and empire. There are other considerations, but I think the one I have just mentioned must be the basic one. In addition, we have our close relationship to the United States to the south of us, a relationship which is the pattern, as is the empire, showing to the nations of the world the way to peace.
I have felt that this country cannot afford to be provocative in its relations with other nations. A sense of responsibility on the part of our public men is essential in that regard. This is no time for provocative talk, nor is it the time for this country to indulge in any kind of polished diplomacy. I like the system which was employed and which I think ushers in a new type of diplomacy, a diplomacy which had such a widespread approval in the security council in London. People said that there was plain speaking there. Of course there was plain speaking, and there was clear speaking. There was an attempt to lay the cards of nations face up on the table. I come to this conclusion: the old days of varnished talk, polished diplomacy and hush-hush relations between nations are rapidly giving way to something healthier and leading to a far more sensible understanding among the nations of the world.
Once before when I was entering this country after coming back from the continent I said

it was somewhat impromptu-and I say it again, that the international washing will dry out far more quickly when it is exposed on the clothesline outside to the winds of world opinion than it will if dt is put on some clothesline down in the damp cellar where world opinion cannot get at it. I made those remarks because someone said to me, "What about the talk that went on- in the security council in London?"
So far as our foreign policy is concerned we in this country must take the responsibility of recognizing that we are grown up. Our whole foreign policy must be geared with that consideration definitely in mind. We must realize that this nation now sits very close

The Address-Mr. Gray don
to the major powers bf the world. It is 'all very well to say that our prestige is high. But with that prestige of course goes heavy international responsibility. In the last few months we have had some taste of our position with respect to international affairs. While the espionage matter has been dealt with fully by some of those who have spoken'-I am very sorry I was not here when the Prime Minister gave his eloquent address -on Monday night'-I do hope that one of the lessons this country will learn is that we just cannot take everything for granted; from now on we just cannot decide that whoever makes an application for a position in the civil service or in government affairs, and particularly where secrecy or responsibilities of a public character are involved, can be taken in without being given at least some kind of test. It is all right for the government to say they have 'done a good job in hunting out the spies and quislings in our midst. Before the session is over I hope the government will indicate the measures they took to prevent the spies and the quislings from getting into the positions they occupied before this thing happened. I find myself pretty much in agreement with the leader of the Social Credit party (Mr. Low) when he speaks about that aspect of this particular matter. There are people who say that this is our lesson, and it is a lesson that has to be learned. I am glad that we are learning a lesson, but may I say to you, Mr. Speaker, that in the country from which I come, when these things happen and are cleaned up afterwards, they say it is not always quite good enough to lock the stable door after the horse is gone. I believe there is a responsiblity resting upon the government with respect to the people who were so chosen.
In our general movements during peace let us realize that there are many people in the world who subscribe to a certain doctrine- I am not so sure that I am not one who subscribes to the doctrine; if I do not, I come pretty close to it-that a factor in bringing about the last war was the invitation which was given by some great nations to a breach of the peace because these nations were not armed. In the days that lie ahead I hope that this nation, the British commonwealth and empire, and other nations will see to it that we do not discard all our defences; that at least we carry our own share of strength into the united nations organization, because a strong Canada and a strong commonwealth make for a stronger world.
We talk about military aggression, but there are other kinds of aggression abroad as well- ideological aggression, and aggression which
[Mr. Graydon.l
has to be met by different kinds of defence. I believe that one of the great parts played by Canada in the united nations organization has to do with the economic and social council. Today we are living in a world which is only a shadow of its former self so far as size is concerned. It is a shrunken ball compared with the world of fifty years ago; it takes a person going from Ottawa to the farthest point in the world less time than it use to take our grandfathers and great-grandfathers to travel from Toronto to Ottawa. When you throw into that concentrated surface science's greatest instrument of destruction you realize that in the world of to-morrow it is not just a question whether we shall have peace or war, but a question whether we shall have peace or international suicide and mass annihilation of mankind.
That is the choice, and in that regard of course we must take our position. But the security council regulations, armed forces and all these things heavily endowed with might are only part of the picture. We have to conduct our war also not only against armed forces but against unemployment, against poverty, against disease and suffering. One of the things I diked about the work of Canada in connection with the united nations organization was the fact that we played such a prominent part in respect to the work of the economic and social council. That is an adventure, an experiment which in my opinion is a move in the right direction; because we shall have peace in this world, Mr. Speaker, when we have abolished the root causes of war. The root causes of war have to be eradicated before war itself can be stamped1 out. So it seems to me the proposals of the economic and social council, providing the ounce of prevention on the theory that it is worth a pound of cure, is something to which Canada may point with justifiable pride. No nation in the world had more words in the united nations charter relating to social and human welfare than did Canada. No nation has taken a stronger stand than Canada took at the various conferences. I was proud to listen to the proceedings at one of the opening meetings of the council, and to realize that Canada had been one nation that had lived up to the spirit and letter of her contract in regard to contributions to suffering humanity through the united nations relief and rehabilitation administration.
Of course people will ask, will the united nations organization bring peace? I say that of itself the united nations organization cannot bring peace; but the great nations of the world, working closely in collaboration with the organization, can do so. While the San

/	The Address-Mr. Lacombe
Francisco charter showed the way to peace, the great nations of the world must show the will to peace. As one looks at the question of our future one realizes that we cannot have peace without paying the price of peacq, A cheap peace could not be a lasting peace; but whatever may be the cost of peace it can never be' as high or as heavy as the cost of war.
Having this in mind as we go forward in the great adventure toward lasting and permanent peace, I want to bring to the attention of the house my honest conviction in regard to the united nations organization. True, there are great hurdles to get over. True, there are many difficulties in sight. True, there are stumbling blocks which to the average person may seem almost insurmountable. But I still have an optimistic feeling with respect to the question of the united nations organization and lasting and permanent peace. The united nations organization deserves a chance to succeed. What would this world have been like had we come to the end of this war without some structure moving toward the great goal of permanent peace and lasting security?
So I conclude my remarks this afternoon by expressing my confidence that the difficulties we have been experiencing in recent times may yet be satisfactorily adjusted, and that the united nations organization will move forward to accomplish the great things for which it was intended. Before coming into the house this afternoon my eyes struck some words written by Tennyson a hundred years ago, and with this I close my remarks:
Ring out, wild bells, to the wild sky,
The flying cloud, the frosty light;
The year is dying dn the night;
Ring out, wild bells, and let him die.
Ring out the grief that saps the mind,
For those that here we see no more Ring out the feud of rich and poor,
Ring in redress to all mankind.
Ring out a slowly dying cause,
And ancient forms of party strife;
Ring in the nobler modes of life,
With sweeter manners, purer laws.
Ring out old shapes of foul disease;
Ring out the narrowing lust of gold; Ring out the thousand wars of old,
Ring dn the thousand years of peace.
Mr. LIGUORI LACOMBE (Laval-Two
Mountains) (Translation): Mr. Speaker, the speech of His Excellency the Governor General depicts in the following terms the woeful conditions against which mankind is now struggling:
The world is full of unrest. Hunger, privation and suffering have become the lot of millions. Other millions are homeless, many of them in exile. The problems which face the statesmen of every nation- -are formidable indeed.
Those problems are made more difficult by the persecution of millions of human beings who are dominated by barbarism immediately after a victory won in the name of Christianity and civilization. Why should we conceal the fact that Soviet Russia has broken the most solemn pledges? She disregards treaties and brushes aside all protests. The right of those small nations which she is crushing is nonexistent to her. Where and when will the Russian dictator stop? Neither Washington nor London knows. The united nations are in desperate straits and they dread the direst misfortunes. Some people show too much interest about the Spanish dictator and not enough about the Russian dictator. Will those who have fought for Christianity, civilization and the four freedoms permit Russia to spread communism all over the world? What happens in Canada? The government has brought to light the Russian espionage organization. They have appointed a royal .commission which is now conducting an investigation. i This investigation has resulted in the arrest of persons occupying important positions.
The government can count on the wholehearted cooperation of all real Canadians in this clean-up attempted in the interest of the security of the state. It is necessary to proclaim before the whole world that millions of human lives have not been sacrificed in vain. Peace must be proclaimed, and the united nations must at all costs safeguard the fruit of countless sacrifices. No dictatorship, no empire should stand in the way of the peace treaty so sorely needed by a troubled world. Before conciliation treaties are shattered on the formidable apparatus of imperialism or dictatorship, let the united nations exhaust all the peaceful means at their disposal and then adopt an implacable attitude towards the aggressive nations, whoever they may be. Another war would bring about a dreadful catastrophe. Man has invented the instrument of his own destruction. Let it not be said that in the twentieth century of the Christian era, humanity slipped back two thousand years into barbarism. We can and must be spared war. But can another conflict be avoided or not? The salvation or annihilation of the world depends on the alternative chosen.
Canada's contribution to the present war, which is not yet over since peace has not been proclaimed, has cost and still costs billions of dollars a year. The loan of $1,250 millions which the government has just granted England is part of our continued contribution to the war. Loan without interest until 1951, gift of over $400 millions to the United
The Address-Mr. Lacombe


Mr. E. O. BERTRAND (Prescott):: Mr. Speaker, in rising to participate in the debate on the address in reply to the speech of His Excellency the Governor General may I first extend expressions of appreciation of our population for the representation given to our country by His Excellency and the Princess Alice during their tenure of office. The example they have set to our population in the part they have played during the troublesome years through which Canada has just passed is one that we all appreciate.
I should like also to take this opportunity to congratulate the mover of the address in reply to the speech from the throne, the hon. member for St. Boniface (Mr. Viau) and the seconder, the hon. member for Queens-Lunen-berg (Mr. Winters). These two hon. members on Friday last made a very good contribution to the debate. Both of them at one time were members of the Canadian armed forces and served in different capacities to defeat the common foe. One of them comes from a far eastern province and the other from the middle west, and consequently they represent a fair cross-section of our population. May I add that they also represent in this house different races in our population. From what they accomplished in the defence of our country while in the armed forces and from their participation in this debate we must surely realize that they are Canadians whom we desire to see amongst our population. Both spoke with wisdom and at times with eloquence. Their appeals for unity amongst our different populations in the provinces of Canada and between those of different creeds and races and religions were surely worth while, and I am happy on this occasion to congratulate them on their efforts on Friday last.
Before proceeding further may I be permitted, Mr. Speaker, to read the first two paragraphs of the speech from the throne which His Excellency addressed to the Senate and House of Commons:
It is just over six months since Canada emerged from six long years of war. The turmoil which has followed in the wake of war has created new problems for governments in all pacts of the globe. The world is full of unrest. Hunger, privation and suffering, have become
128	COMMONS
The Address-Mr. Bertrand (Prescott) _
tihe 'lot of millions. Other millions are homeless, many of them in exile. The problems which face the statesmen of every nation are formidable indeed.
It is only in the light of the world situation that all our problems can be seen in true perspective. The future of our own and of every country depends upon success in the task of world reconstruction, and the establishment of an enduring peace. Many of the measures you will be called upon to consider at the present session will be concerned with this wider 'aspect oi human affairs.
These two paragraphs are indicative of the present formidable world problems whose ramifications affect the Dominion of Canada.
We must admit that Canada is really fortunate in having as its Prime Minister at the present time the Right Hon. W. L. Mackenzie King. His experience as a leader of a country is unsurpassed amongst the allied nations, and his proverbial prudence of pronouncements and his wisdom as a statesman make it a privilege for Canada to have him as Prime Minister in the strenuous times through which we are passing. May I add that he is even more than that, as he has proven in the last year. He is a stalwart in comprehension of international affairs amongst the united nations for the welfare of all populations in the world, but principally for the welfare of those nations that stand for peace, justice and liberty. It is under his guidance that Canada has done so much for victory and to help the allied nations in the last six years. It is under the Prime Minister's guidance that Canada will continue to cooperate with the allied nations for the peace and reconstruction of the world. But while participating in these international conferences to assure everlasting peace, Canada must at the same time attend to her own domestic, social, economic and commercial problems.
What will the year 1946 bring to us? Historians of to-morrow cannot fail to note 1945 as one of the greatest of all years-the dividing line between an age that is past and the new atomic era.
Because the second world war was commenced in 1939, that year was the most momentous up to that time. In 1945 came the end of the conflict, and the return of our youth who had gone to the wars-wars at all the ends of the earth. But it was also the year of the atomic bomb on the one hand and, on the other, the birth of the united nations organization. All the events of this closing year will determine the shape of things to come in a very large degree. The problems before us, as the speech from the throne indicates are formidable indeed.

(Translation):
And, Mr. Speaker, those tremendous problems are not wholly Canadian, their ramifications are international, and in their solution, we must take into account the rights of each country, as well as the ways, customs and aspirations of every racial group and every nation. A great deal of tolerance and charity will be required in order to adjust difficult situations to the best advantage of all concerned.
For the time being, the important thing is the preservation of world-peace, and I am firmly convinced that every country genuinely desires peace. However, the differences of opinion and the aspirations of the various countries make this problem infinitely difficult of solution.
If peac; is to prevail throughout the world, it must be predicated foremost on Christian charity. Now, in my estimation, Rome is surely the greatest Christian centre in the world.
About twenty-five great countries now have a representative in Vatican City, and I feel that if Canada has been in a position to play such an important part during the war which has just ended, if she is called upon to cooperate in future in order to safeguard the peace of the world, it would be only reasonable that Canada, whose diplomatic representation is constantly increasing in various countries, should have an official diplomatic representative in the Vatican, the seat of the princes of the Church.
The reconstruction of our country is largely dependent upon its foreign trade. It has always been the aim of the Liberal party to create and maintain prosperity in our country by developing our export and import trade. In recent months, we have striven more than ever to develop our foreign trade, and it might not be out of place here to congratulate the hon. minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. MacKinnon) for the many trade agreements which he has concluded with several countries which, until recent years, had traded with Canada on a very limited scale.
Our trade with devastated countries will surely require loans and credits and we will be called upon to approve such loans and credits to those countries that may need them. In the last, few months. UNRRA has supplied large quantities of goods to the population of devastated countries now in the grip of hunger or famine, but more than such relief will be required to rebuild the various devastated countries of Europe. Canada must keep on doing its share and more than its share by increasing those credits. That is why it is

Official Secrets Act
stated in the speech from the throne that we will be called upon to approve a loan of $1,250 million to Britain.
We must not look only at the seemingly fabulous amount of the loan, but must also consider Canada's bounden duty to help the European countries while furthering our own trade and development.
Canada must make credits or loans available to Britain, France, Belgium and other countries, I do not see why it should not. As a matter of fact, these credits and loans would be used to purchase goods in Canada, and then our people will derive the greatest advantage from these financial arrangements.
With no wish to prejudice the interests involved in these various credits or loans, I will frankly admit, that in principle I am convinced Canada must contribute to the reestablishment of the Allied nations by granting them the credits and loans necessary to bring about their reconstruction.
The countries of Europe and Asia are at present suffering from hardship. Hunger and even famine are rampant in large and important countries. Canada can increase its present output and at the same time render service to its veterans; that is why our people must take an interest in this problem.
Canada must not be asked to produce simply from charitable motives and in order to help needy countries; it must feel vitally interested in producing more, and if we are to encourage our people to increase their output of foodstuffs, the farmer's income must be boosted.
Nevertheless, the Canadian farmer holds an important position in our national economy at this time. Let us see what has been his income in the past twenty-five years. According to the Agricultural Economist of November ' 1945, issued by the Department of Agriculture. This publication takes the index number 100 for 1926, when prices of farm products and the cost of living were normal. On the basis of that index number, statistics prove that all products the price of which was equivalent to 100 in 1926 have decreased to 66 [DOT] 7 in 1932 and gone up to 104 in July 1945. On the .same basis, that is, taking the 1926 index number, 100, farm products have gone down to 48-4 in 1932 and risen to 107-8 in July 1945; field crops have .gone down to 41-1 in 1932 and increased to 99-2 in July 1945; live stock products have declined to 60-7 in 1932 and increased to 122-3 in July 1945. These figures might offer a partial answer to the hon. member of the C.C.F. who stated this afternoon that if some credit can be given to the policy of the 63260-9
honourable the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner), that credit is nevertheless not very great. Since it is fair to refer to statistics, we must admit that the Minister of Agriculture has carried to its highest level the income which farmers have had during the last twenty-five or thirty years. If this is true, the fact remains that statistics show an average income of 108-3 for the four factors I have indicated, whilst the cost of living, in July 1945 stood at 123-7 for the farmer. The goods and services used by farmers for those eight factors on the farm have stood on the average at 125-7 in July, 1945, and for eleven factors at 144-2, also in July, 1945. It means that the cost of living and the cost of farm production for those various factors, stands at an average of 130-9 for the farmer, therefore, the farmer's cost of living and production is still higher by 22-6 than the price he obtains for his products. If the farmer is to produce more, he must certainly have a high^- income.
On motion of Mr. Bertrand (Prescott) the debate was adjourned.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Thursday, March 21, 1946.