1946-06-07

LABOUR CONDITIONS

[Stage Direction]
seamen's STRIKE-DISRUPTION OF TRAFFIC ON INLAND WATERWAYS
Hon. HUMPHREY MITCHELL (Minister of Labour):: I understand an hon. gentleman is going to move the adjournment of the house to discuss another matter, so I thought I had better get in first. The hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) sent me notice of a question in reference to the movement of six hundred men into Cornwall, and I think I should answer immediately because this does affect the situation to a great extent. Immediately I read that statement in the newspapers I got in touch with the operators, from whom I received a telegram. I think it would be better to read this telegram, and also a telegram I have received from the union. This is the telegram from the operators:
Referring to newspaper reports of to-day and with reference to our telephone conversation of this morning ship owners say that no arrangements have been made for a mass movement of men into Cornwall. They say that they have available at least six hundred men many of whom are returned men ready to man their ships ahd that any attempt to man any vessel or vessels will only be made after full and proper notice to the proper police authorities and in full cooperation with them. Meantime strikers are pursuing their acts of lawlessness tile latest of which was the attack on the steamer Birchton last night in the Soulanges canal, when they seriously injured the cook, smashed up the galley throwing the galley stove overboard and committed other acts of vandalism. Also strikers last night forcibly removed the crews of the steamers Houson, Stewart, Richards, Maple-heath, (i ra in m of or and Kinmount while they were lying peacefully at dominion government property at Coteau.
(Signed) George R. Donovan, Secretary, Dominion Marine Association.
I also received, in reference to the same matter, the following telegram from Mr. J. A. Sullivan of the Canadian seamen's union: View with alarm press release from ship owners in Montreal in which they state that they have organized and are prepared to move into the city of Cornwall six hundred thugs. They quote in their statement that they intend to get the ships out of Cornwall with or without the aid of the authorities. Such open defiance must be checked. They have accused this organization of violence but with their own words they have proven that they are the lawless ones. Surely it is time for the government *to act in stopping such a procedure.
I have read these telegrams, Mr. Speaker, to give my hon. friend and this house some indication of where the Minister of Labour sometimes sits in these disputes.


Mr. COLDWELL:: What a hot spot!


Humphrey Mitchell: I have always taken the view-although sometimes my hon. friend has accused me of sitting on the fence; in this instance I would say it is a hot stove-that it is wise to be a conciliator. I suppose I have been chairman of more commissions on labour disputes than any other labour man in this country-. To be successful, one cannot take sides. He has to bring the parties together. I thought I had done that this week-until this press story this morning, and the incident which took place yesterday on the St. Lawrence.
I told the union and the employers that I thought this carry-on or attitude by both sides was unwise. In my judgment it was stupid- and I say that to both sides. Sooner or later the dispute will be settled; it will have to be settled. Unless there is cooperation of both parties to the dispute, whoever presides over that dispute -has an almost impossible task. I hope even at this late date that both sides will act like grown-up men, instead of children on a sand lot.



WASTAGE THROUGH LACK OF CONTAINERS- MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT UNDER STANDING ORDER 31

Mr. G. A. CRUICKSHANK (Fraser Valley):: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to move the adjournment of the house under standing order 31 for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the immediate threat of wastage of the current crop of small fruits, tree fruits, vegetables, butter and egg production and the fish pack in the province of British Columbia, because of the lack of necessary wooden or wood product containers.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Standing order 31 states, in part:
(2)	The member desiring to make such a motion rises in his place, asks leave to move the adjournment of the house for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, and states the matter.
(3)	He then hands a written statement of the matter proposed to be discussed to Mr. Speaker, *who, if he thinks it in order, and of urgent public importance, reads it out and asks whether the member .has the leave of the house. If objection is taken, Mr. Speaker requests those members who support the motion to rise in their places and. if more than twenty members rise accordingly, Mr. Speaker calls upon the member who has asked for leave.
(4)	If less than twenty, but not less than five, members rise in their places, the question whether the member has leave to move the adjournment of the house shall be put forthwith, without debate, and determined, if necessary, by a division.

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Inasmuch as the motion has been presented at the proper time, and I regard it as a matter of urgent public importance, I consider it in order. If no objection is taken, the hon. member for Fraser Valley has the floor.
And leave having been granted:


George Alexander Cruickshank: Mr. Speaker, I asked for the adjournment of the house to discuss a matter of national urgency, namely the immediate threat of wastage of the current crop of small fruits, tree fruits, vegetables, butter and egg production and the fish pack in British Columbia because of the lack of the necessary wood and wood product containers. I do so because I believe the matter is not merely of immediate national urgency, but that it is of international urgency.
The pack is threatened with extensive wastage because of the lack of wood and wood product containers to collect and transport it. This shortage, while brought to a head by the current lumber strike, was very serious long before the strike occurred. Because of the extreme shortage of lumber, few barrels, crates or hallocks have been produced this spring, because the lumbermen found it more profitable to convert their logs into building lumber than into boxes at the current ceiling prices. This situation got so bad that on April 30, Donald Gordon gave the box manufacturers an open permit to manufacture the necessary containers, the British Columbia fruit crop alone requiring 30,000 barrels, 16,000,000 boxes, 200,000 crates and 5,000,000 hallocks. But slight production had followed when the lumber strike closed all box factories.
The first small fruits are now ripening in the fields, and I now quote a wire I have received from the president of the British Columbia branch of the Canadian Federation of. Agriculture, dated May 20. It states:
Vernon, B.C., May 20, 1946. G. A. Cruickshank, M.P.,
Ottawa, Ontario.
Unless manufacture of berry crates, processing barrels, egg eases and vegetable crates is renewed immediately heavy losses to growers, processors, distributors and employees in these departments are inevitable. ' Harvesting of berries starts in about fortnight and if containers are not ready large part of heavy and valuable berry crop will be left in fields to rot. Not only domestic fresh market supplies affected but export of processed berries for Britain. Eggs for Britain from Fraser Valley affected and also vegetables from Fraser Valley Vancouver Island and interior. Urge your interest and assistance towards settlement ensuring resumption mills and woods operations. Tree fruits crop of record proportions from Kamloops through Okanagan and east to Creston in prospect and every day mills are idle means loss of boxes that cannot be made up during balance of season. Our federation confirms and supports vigorously representations of British
Columbia coast growers association, Pacific coast poultry producers association and British Columbia fruit growers association. Our federation would value message from you regarding this crisis.
P. E. French,
President, B.C. Federation of Agriculture.
In the house for the past two months the greatest emphasis has been laid by all parties on food production, because of shortage in Canada and' starvation abroad. In view of the immediate threat of wastage of the tremendous British Columbia crop of perishable foodstuffs, I should be derelict in my duty as a member of parliament if I did not rnoVe the adjournment of the house so that public attention may be directed to this grave situation.	.
My colleagues from British Columbia are equally concerned over the emergency. I thank you, Mr. Speaker, for permitting this motion for adjournment. I shall be as direct and as brief as possible in anything I shall have to say. Perhaps hon. members will excuse me if, for once, I stick closely to my notes, for I wish to present the plight of the food producers and my proposed solution in as clear a manner as possible.
It is often said, sir, that the entire economy of British Columbia is dependent on the lumber industry, and that this is true even of agriculture and fisheries, for the great bulk of our pack in small fruits, tree fruits, vegetables, eggs, butter, and fish, is collected, packed and marketed both at home and abroad in wooden containers, whether they be barrels, crates, or hallocks. In wartime our producers have not only had great difficulty in getting farm labour to cultivate the crops, but, because of shortages in the lumber industry, each year they have found it more and more difficult to obtain the containers in which to pack and ship them.
Normally a great deal of the production is done in the winter time, so that an adequate stock is available at the beginning of the picking season, and during the packing season the box factories produce a maximum output which in the past has barely sufficed to save the crop. This past winter, however, the ceiling price on these containers was so low in comparison with the price for construction lumber that most of the manufacturers chose to turn out lumber instead of boxes. A grave situation developed, and as long ago as March 19, again on April 8, and again on April 24, I wrote to the wartime prices and trade board and the government, pointing out that unless box manufacturers were in full production we would have tremendous waste of food in the summer. I should like to
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quote one paragraph from Donald Gordon's letter in reply to my representations. It reads:
In view of the shortness of time remaining before berry baskets will be required in the British Columbia area, that manufacturers be permitted to sell on the basis of invoices open as to price.
I should like to repeat two things mentioned in that letter. Mr. Gordon gives as the reason for allowing a breach of the price ceiling on containers "the shortness of time remaining before berry baskets will be required in the British Columbia area." That was written on April 30, and it is now June 7. The fruit is ripe and is being shipped, and there are only a few containers available. In the next few weeks thousands of tons of f^uit will ripen and there will be no containers at all. The production of containers, which began after April 30, ended completely with the general strike in the timber industry in British Columbia which began on May 17. We *would have had a grave shortage even had the timber strike not occurred, because of the events I have related; but the timber strike was a calamity. The irony of it is that this year in Britsh Columbia we are having a record fruit crop. An announcement in the Vancouver Province of last week stated that the Fraser Valley crop was estimated to be one-third greater than any previous crop and that employment services were trying to induce women to come from the prairie provinces to help harvest the crop. The same is true for Vancouver island and [DOT] the Kootenays.
I should like to quote a telegram received from the president of the British Columbia coast growers' association, which represents all the berry growers' associations of the lower mainland and Vancouver island. It is signed also by the president of the Pacific coast poultry producers' association. In case any hon. member thinks I am speaking without authority on behalf of the berry growers of the lower mainland and Vancouver island, I should like to give a list of the associations that make up the British Columbia coast growers' association. They are as follows:
Associated Berry Growers Cooperative Exchange, Hatzic; Pacific Cooperative Union, Mission; Fraser Valley Growers Limited, Mission; Central Fruit Distributors Limited, Mission; Maple Ridge Cooperative Exchange, Haney; South Fraser Cooperative Union, New Westminster; South Port Mann Berry Growers Association, South Port Mann; Coastal Growers Cooperative Association, Richmond; Richmond Berry Growers Association, Steveston; Surrey Berry Growers Association, Surrey district; Strawberry Hill Berry Growers Association, South New Westminster; Mt. Lehman, Dennison, Bradner Berry Growers Association, Mount Lehman; Yarrow Growers Cooperative (Mr. Cruickshank.]
Union, Yarrow; Dewdney Rhubarb Growers Cooperative Association, Dewdney; Saanich Fruit Growers Cooperative Association, Saanich; Gordon Head Fruit Growers Cooperative Association, Saanich; Vancouver Island Cooperative Fruit Growers Association, Saa-nichton.	.
The last three associations are on Vancouver island. I mention those associations because it has been assumed by some, perhaps with the best intentions but certainly without any knowledge or information, that we are not actually short of containers. The wires that I have quoted and those that I will quote later on show that I represent people who know the container situation in British Columbia. I am sorry to take so much time, but I think this matter is of vital importance. The telegram reads:
Berry growers and poultry men of this Fraser valley fearful of the effect shortage of berry crates and egg eases will have on their industry. On their behalf we would request your department to endeavour to bring about an early settlement of the lumber strike. Supply of crates and barrels on hand only sufficient for a few days operation and season starts in two weeks. Local associations met with union representatives to-day and try and solve our problems but additional help needed.
The only possible solution for this situation is to get the box factories going immediately on twenty-four hour production. The end of the timber strike would of course achieve this end. As I told the Minister of Labour (Mr. Mitchell) some time ago, I had a proposal which I think would end the strike. I refrained from introducing this proposal because deliberations were being carried on under Chief Justice Sloan, and I did not want to do anything that might interfere with the final solution of the strike.
I want to emphasize the fact that I am not talking about the lumber strike to-day. I am speaking on behalf of the important berry growers of the province of British Columbia, and other hon. members can speak on behalf of the tree fruit growers. I consider it my duty to bring before the house the seriousness of the situation. The only thing I want to say about the lumber strike at this time is that the loggers are "not striking against the farmers and fishermen of British Columbia. They are not striking to sabotage food production in British Columbia. They are not striking to deprive veterans of lumber to build homes. They Sre producers just the same as the farmers and fishermen are producers. Many of them are veterans and it is not their desire to injure their fellow workers.
As I said before, I am not taking sides one way or another, I am simply pointing out what I believe to be the true facts. These men are striking against the logging and saw

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mill operators for higher wages, shorter hours and union security. They have shown they are not striking against the veterans by permitting lumber to pass through the picket line if used for veterans' buildings. They have shown that they are not striking against the farmers by returning to work without prejudice in the small box factory in Creston in the Kootenays, where the situation was most grave.
It has been suggested that I am overestimating the seriousness of the shortage of berry crates and barrels in British Columbia, and particularly in the Fraser Valley. It has been suggested by certain officials here, possibly in good faith but certainly without any knowledge of the facts, that the situation is not as serious as some of us say it is. I should like to quote one or two telegrams. The last one I received over the telephone just before I came to the house to-day. These serve to strengthen the stand I am taking. The first one reads:
Lumber strike preventing Sweeney Cooperage, Vancouver, supplying sufficient barrels for rasp-perry crop. Krause has only 2,000 barrels on hand, needs 10,000.
I am told by some that there are containers in sufficient quantity, but here is one concern in my riding which requires 10,000 barrels and has only 2,000 on hand. Shipping of the crop is just starting. These people know what they are talking about. I have another telegram from four large shippers of berries, both cooperatives and independent. These people know their business, and this is what they say in a telegram dated June 4:
IWA strike called over two weeks ago has resulted in absolute deadlock of cooperage operations causing acute barrel shortage. These barrels absolutely necessary for packing thousands of tons berries definitely confirmed for the United Kingdom. Loss of this business through lack of barrels will cost berry growers of the Fraser Valley one million dollars. Loss to the United Kingdom food ministry cannot be considered in monetary value alone but will result in untold loss of food stocks absolutely necessary to Great Britain. Suggest every effort be made to have cooperage operations resumed to full capacity immediately pending settlement between labour unions and industry so that barrel manufacture can begin at once as every hour of delay means untold loss to the berry industry and to millions who are depending upon these food supplies.
Pacific cooperative union Yarrow growers association Fraser Valley growers limited Central fruit distributors.
The British Columbia federation of agriculture wrote to me under date of May 30, and I should like to quote one paragraph as follows:
It is a hard road for the berry, tree fruit and vegetable industries of British Columbia and whether even in the event of an early settlement, growers can catch up with container needs, is doubtful.
I should like to quote briefly from the Chilliwack Progress, probably the largest weekly newspaper in British Columbia, published in the berry growing district. In the issue of May 29 they state:
With some strawberries already being picked and the main crop expected to start appearing on the market next week, the picture looks dismal for the growers in the district if the strike tie-up continues to hold up the box factories, berry officials report.
I could go on quoting, but I just want to emphasize the seriousness of the situation. I am told by some without the necessary knowledge that there are containers on hand. I admit frankly that strawberries are being shipped out of the Fraser Valley to-day, not by the crate but in carload lots.
Then there is the raspberry crop. I have referred to there being 2.000 barrels on hand, .and there is an estimated crop of 10,000 barrels. That means that we shall have to divert our raspberry crates to care for the strawberry crop.	.
I can quote Donald Gordon, whose name is known to a few' hon. members, in confirmation of what I say, speaking under date of April 30.
We know' that the government cannot do the impossible, and we cannot expect crates or barrels to be produced over-night. The farmers are reasonable and know that that cannot be done. It may not be known to some hon. members that the only farm produce that I know of in Canada which has not been allow'ed to maintain its market is the small fruits. We have never been allowed to ship to the United States; our fruit has been allocated to eastern markets and to Great Britain. We have no particular quarrel with that, although we want to maintain our markets.
I want to make a suggestion to the government. There is one possible way of meeting the shortage of containers now. We are in a position to sell our fruits to the United States, and they will supply the containers if we are granted an export permit. But naturally the Americans must know to-day if they can receive our fruit-I am speaking of the raspberry crop-so that they can make their arrangements to send up the containers. We have plenty of containers to-day but the officials overlook the fact that the present expectations are for a very large crop of raspberries this year. .If wTe are to be granted an export permit to ship to the United States it must be done immediately so that the
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Americans can make their arrangements for sending the crates and barrels in bond and taking the fruit back to the United States, thus saving the crop.
I have a quotation here from a man who is particularly well known to the Minister of Agriculture. I know it will be said that fruit . is not the most essential food. I have never been accused in this house of having any love or particular admiration for any adult enemies of this country, but I do not think any member of this house has the right to sit quiet when food is being wasted while children in Europe and elsewhere are starving. There was a meeting in London recently of the International Federation of Agricultural Producers, and some prominent agriculturists were over there, at the expense either of their own organization or of the government. I quote what Mr. J. H. Wesson, of the wheat pools, Regina, said:
Mr. J. H. Wesson, of the wheat pools. Regina, suggested three principles which should guide future food policies in all countries-that to destroy food was nothing short of vandalism; that restriction of production of necessary food was socially immoral; that when food was produced and not distributed to those needing it there was evident incompetent statesmanship between countries with too much and those with too little.
I do not want to take sides in the lumber strike, but in passing I may say that I am the only member of parliament elected from British Columbia who was endorsed by the organized loggers' union, I.W.A., at the last election. I represent the berry growers of British Columbia, and can claim some right also to represent the loggers because I had their endorsation at the last election. I say that neither the union nor the operators can find any justification for food being wasted while people are starving in Europe or anywhere else. But above all, the one body that has absolutely no right to allow food to be wasted at this time is the parliament of Canada.
I think I have indicated the opinions of the producers, either cooperatives or independent, of small fruits in British Columbia. I have also quoted a wire from the federation of the Okanagan. These people know whether or not there is a shortage of containers.
My suggestion to the government and to the Minister of Labour, if you like-perhaps not the Minister of Labour, after what I have said of the duty of employers and unions- is this: It is the duty of the Acting Prime Minister to put in a controller in the box factories in British Columbia to-morrow.

_ Hon. GROTE STIRLING (Yale): Mr. Speaker, I am very glad that the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank) has brought this matter to the attention of the house, and I congratulate him on the very thorough way in which he has presented the views and the needs of those he represents. He has dealt with the berry production of the Fraser valley as well as that of the lower mainland. The containers required for that crop are largely barrels. I want to add a few words from the point of view of the production of fruit and vegetables in the southern part of British Columbia.
When this strike started on the 15th of May the Minister of Labour (Mr. Mitchell), making a statement in this house, said:
. The dispute is one which comes within provincial authority.
Two days later the minister of labour for British Columbia, writing to the Kelowna Sawmills, made this statement:
Dealing with the persons responsible for this is the responsibility of the Minister of Labour for Canada.
So that once more we have the statement made here that it is a provincial affair, and in Victoria that it is a dominion affair.
Later, on another occasion, the Minister of Labour referred to the fact that any decision arrived at, after a conciliation board had sat, would have to be referred to the regional war labour board. That is a board set up under the .dominion government; there can be no question about that. And the matters being dealt with-food, prices and wages-are matters which come under the control of the dominion government. It seems to me without any question that the authority lies with the dominion government to enter this dispute and to produce a settlement. The minister, on the day of the beginning of the strike, proceeded-Hansard, page 1549:
Notification was publicized that a strike would occur to-day, and as there was evidence that the negotiations were breaking down, the Hon. George S. Pearson, Minister of Labour for British Columbia, consulted with me in the matter and recommended the appointment of a special commissioner.
He related how he had appointed Chief Justice Sloan to be an industrial disputes inquiry commission. Later, the minister goes on:
I have not had a report from Chief Justice Sloan. However, the information received by me by telephone early this morning from the British Columbia minister of labour is to the effect that at the meeting held by the chief justice yesterday the negotiations came to an end because those representing the union took the position that the strike was going to take place at eleven o'clock this morning.

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That brought that conciliation effort to a standstill. The operators could not see what good could result from profceeding with the discussion when the strike was on.
Then the Minister of Finance (Mr. Usley) made a most earnest appeal to both parties to this dispute; and I must say that I was hopeful that both the disputants would take it to heart and a settlement would be arrived at. For when a minister of finance, speaking for the dominion government, makes such an apppal to disputants, it appears to me he would likely receive the support of the general public, and it has often been pointed out that no strike can last very long if it has not the support of the general public. However, the Minister of Labour on May 29 had to come to the house and give the replies which he had received from the disputants, and he read a statement from the Interior Lumber Association. from which I want to quote a word or two-Hansard, page 1986:
Negotiations on behalf of the owners have been conducted by Mr. J. H. Ruddock, industrial relations officer, Interior British Columbia Lumber and Box Manufacturers Association.
Then followed a long wire, at the end of which appear these words:
Furthermore present strike in largest box producing plant in interior British Columbia called in face of valid agreement which that plant has with Canadian Congress of Labour and which agreement has never been terminated either by C.C.L. or I.W.A. Under all circumstances in fairness to all concerned and particularly to avoid heavy loss to growers we again urge instructions be given for unconditional resumption operations leaving result to legal processes of conciliation and arbitration.
Again and again, to both parties to the dispute, the suggestion has been made, backing up the appeal of the Minister of Finance, that for the sake of food, for the sake of saving destructible food, the dispute should end and the matters in dispute should be subsequently settled.
At the very beginning of the strike I received a telegram from the president of the British Columbia Fruit Growers Association which I want to put on the record. It is dated the 18th, and the house will remember that the strike began on the 15th:
Tree fruit industry of British Columbia facing grave crisis through strike of International Woodworkers Association which has closed down all box mills in interior and thus shut off supplies of shook. Record crops of tree fruits in prospect. Every day's stoppage of mills means many thousands of containers will not be available. Only by operating at full capacity every day until end of season can needs be met. Only small proportion of season's requirements now supplied and consequently enormous losses impend unless mills resume operations immediately.
My understanding is that there is in sight a $20 million crop of fruits and vegetables in the southern interior of British Columbia, not including the area for which the hon. member for Fraser Valley speaks. The packing of early cherries began a few days ago at Osoyoos and Oliver, at the southern end of the Okanagan valley. I understand there is shook in sight which perhaps will take care of the cherries and a portion of the apricots, but there is no shook in sight at all for everything that follows-peaches, pears, plums, prunes, apples.
Now this disastrous dispute is a serious enough question in relation to the housing problem which is common to all Canada, and we must remember that these British Columbia mills send the necessary lumber a good many hundred miles east of the Pacific coast. The delay in the housing situation is a very serious matter, but it is a matter of delay. The lack of shook with which to make boxes and crates to send this perishable crop to market is not a matter merely of delay; it is not delay at all, it is destruction, and that is what makes it such an extremely serious thing today. It is impossible for me to foretell what possibility there will be of scraping together unusual and unexpected containers with which merely to get this stuff to the markets. It is possible that if it could reach the markets it could be taken away in small quantities by other means, paper bags or something of that sort, but that will not help us in the problem of getting the stuff to the market; and, Mr. Speaker, it is destructible stuff we are talking about.
We are being told every day of the need of producing every bit of food that is possible. Our particular international difficulty, true, is in respect of wheat and flour, but if wheat and flour are short, the people must tend to turn to something else. There is no question that vegetables would be the next thing they would turn to, and fruit to the extent that it is a valuable portion of the diet of the ordinary healthy person.
Besides all. that it should be remembered that the area for which I speak has this one industry prominent in its work. Secondary industries have cropped up in support of the main industiy; but it is not only the fruit growers who own this crop which may be destroyed who are in this lamentable difficulty; but it is all the labour they employ, it is all the stores in the town to which people, for lack of money, may not be able to go "and buy their requirements; it is all the people of the interior of British Columbia from the Canadian Pacific main line to the international boundary and. from the Alberta boundary to
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the boundary of the Fraser Valley riding. Not only is it serious from the point of view of the inability to market these fruit and vegetables, but because there will be a shortage of food purchasable by the people themselves.


Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) :: Mr. Speaker, a question was asked yesterday with regard to the matter under discussion as to which some information should be placed early in this debate before members of the house. Full information with regard to the position was not at hand yesterday, but I have considerable of it here at the moment. I think the general situation is best stated in a memorandum which I have in my hand and which I will read to the house.
There are prospects that one of the largest crops on record is maturing in British Columbia at present. Cherries will be ready in about two weeks, followed by peaches, apricots and plums. These are highly perishable fruits. The apple crop is being estimated at eight million boxes. Cherry containers are in fair supply but only about one-third enough boxes for the rest of the crop, and an inadequate supply of barrels for processing. The Okanagan depends mainly on the Okanagan box shook plants for its production. In lower Fraser Valley the deficit in the supply of containers threatens the loss of $1,000,000 worth of fruit for which there are no barrels or crates. One company alone, the Pacific Cooperative in Mission, needs
13.000	barrels for processing small fruits and
45.000	crates for raspberries. The over-all deficit in barrels is estimated at 35,000. Each barrel contains from 350 to 400 pounds of fruit. The supply of berry crates and hallocks comes mainly from three small mills at Yarrow. Mission and, Haney and from Fraser Wood Products Limited, which makes veneer. These plants are now idle or nearly so through lack of logs for veneer.
That is the general position as stated by one who is interested in the ideas which are being put before the house by the member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank) and by others. I have taken the trouble to-day to have the position reviewed by officials of the department, through getting in direct contact with British Columbia, and the information gathered is compiled in another memorandum, which is the result of conversations that took place within the last hour and a half. The statements made are to this effect:
Strawberries. The first picking started on May 30. From 1,500 to 2,500 crates are going to prairie markets daily. By the end of next week shipments will be up to 7,000 and 8,000 crates daily. The present supply of crates amounts to about 40,000 which are in the hands of the organized shippers. Independents are in a bad position.	The estimated crop of
strawberries for this year is 4,000 tons.
Raspberries. Expected to start picking about 24th June. Organized growers have between
35.000	and 40,000 crates on hand. Independent shippers are short. The estimated crop is 5,500 tons.
[Mr. Stirling.}
Barrels. The Pacific Union have on hand
13,000	barrels-5,000 new U.S., 2,000 new B.C., and 6,000 old barrels. Fraser Valley Co-Op. have all the barrels they will require for this year. Yarrow Co-op. have only about 1,000 barrels on hand and 1,000 promised. Their position is very short. New barrel requirements are in the neighbourhood of about 35,000. The actual shortage is about 21,000 barrels.
The statement is made that "we are unable to obtain or secure any more barrels from the United States at present". That is, I presume, for use in making supplies available to others than the Americans themselves, and there is no assurance that barrels would be supplied from the United States even if they were to be returned packed with berries, although it is stated there may be private commitments to that effect of which the department itself would have no information. That is the position as it is reported to us at the moment.
I do not intend this afternoon, though others may desire to do so, to discuss the pros and cons of the arguments that can be brought forward on either side of the labour dispute which is on at the moment, or to state what ought to be done in relation to it. I only point out that in the summaries I have read it is indicated that three or four companies are making containers and it would probably not be a difficult thing for someone to take control of these companies and operate them if that in itself would get the results desired. My understanding is, however, that the supplies of logs which would be required to make possible the manufacture of containers is something which goes much deeper than that and involves a problem which would have to be solved before the operation of the plants themselves would be effective.
The question which was asked yesterday, and the proposal which was made with a view to providing some solution for the difficulty, is however on a very much narrower basis than the basis upon which the discussion is taking place to-day. The member for Fraser Valley, rising in his place yesterday, stated:
I should like to direct a question to the government. I do not know which department it comes under so I have given notice to three ministers. My first question is, what steps are being taken to save thousands of tons of berries worth over a million dollars, now under contract to the United Kingdom from being lost, owing to the lack of barrels and containers?
I would like to take a few moments to deal with that first question and the background which makes it an important one.
In the first place, early in the war the British government did not desire to have fruit shipped because of the fact that it took up very considerable space and supplied less food value to those who required ford than did some

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other types of food, and so a market for what is known as S02 was not readily available. During the first period of the war our chief difficulty was to try to persuade the British to take S02, and I might suggest that one of the members active in trying to bring that about was the member for Fraser Valley. He did on many occasions emphasize the importance of getting rid of this product, which provides an outlet for surplus, which canqot be sold, of fresh berries in the province of British Columbia. As a result of representations made by himself and others, and the efforts exerted on their behalf by the special products board, we did from time to time persuade the British to take certain quantities of S02 in order to relieve the situation existing in British Columbia. Last year the British government asked for this product. They asked what quantity of it we could supply and we made arrangements to have supplied to them the quantity which was available at that time. This year, when I was in Britain in January, we approached the British government to find out whether they woud be willing to take S02 this year, and in what quantity, and the understanding we reached with them was that they were anxious to obtain the product and would take whatever quantity could be made available to them this year.
I quite agree with what the member for Fraser Valley said a few moments ago. In spite of the fact that jam and fruit generally is not of the same food value as bacon, butter, wheat or products of that kind, when there are difficulties in obtaining butter, jam is a very good spread for bread to induce children to eat more of that commodity than they otherwise would, and it is particularly good for the type of bread which is being supplied children on the European continent and in Britain at the present time. It makes the bread more palatable and a better food because of the fact that it has jam upon it. So at the present time the British are placing perhaps more emphasis upon the obtaining of this product Than they were at the beginning or even in the middle of the war. The net result is that officials of the department approached the fruit producers of British Columbia and obtained assurances that certain quantities of S02 would be made available this year to the British government in barrels, and my understanding is that all the barrels necessary for the shipment of S02 in the form in which the British government desire to have it, for the making of jam to be served on the continent or perhaps mainly in Britain itself, have been assured to make available
the quantities which the organized producers of British Columbia agreed could be made available from that province. So as far as the first question is concerned I can only say we feel that provision has been mad,e to make available to Britain, in containers suitable for the purpose, S02 in the quantity which has been arranged.	[DOT]
The second part of the question is stated in these words:
The second question-and these are straight questions-is, will the government grant an immediate export permit for five hundred tons of raspberries to the United States . . .
Later the hon. gentleman repeated the question in these words:
. . . will the government grant an immediate export permit for five hundred tons of raspberries to the United States, barrels and containers for which will be supplied by the United States purchasers, thus permitting raspberry barrels on hand to be used for the present emergency in the marketing of strawberries. That is a straight question, and it is a vital one for the people of Canada.
The answer to that question, Mr. Speaker, if it will be helpful in the decisions that are to be reached, can be made just as direct as the answer to the other question. In the first place the Department of Agriculture is anxious to see that the S02 promised, not by contract but by word of mouth, to the British government will be made available to them. The department is anxious to have that undertaking fulfilled in order to keep faith, if you like, with those who are expecting to obtain the product in order to provide food of the type I was discussing a few moments ago for the people of Great Britain. But we do not consider that we should press that matter to the point of making it impossible for the berry growers of British Columbia to be able to market their product. I think I can say to the hon. member for Fraser Valley or to any other hon. member of the house that there, would be very little if any hesitation in issuing permits to have five hundred tons of - these berries exported to the United States. Some further consideration might have to be given to the question whether more than that quantity should be exported, in view of all the circumstances, but I think I can say without fear of any other decision being rendered that every possible consideration will be given to requests for permits for the shipment of berries to the United States from the British Columbia area to make it possible to market fruit which otherwise could not be marketed as the result of a shortage of containers in that area. In other words if, as is suggested, the Americans are prepared to make containers available in which to ship
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to the United States berries which otherwise would go to waste in the province of British Columbia, then I do not think anyone in the government or in this house would take the position that these berries must be allowed to spoil in the fields instead of being shipped to someone, somewhere, who would utilize them and pay the producers for them.
On.the other hand I should like to emphasize the fact that a market for S02 has been represented to us as most important to the berry growers of British Columbia, and I repeat that one of those who have been most ardent in making these representations is the hon. member for Fraser Valley. That is only natural, since as he has stated this afternoon he represents the berry growers. So I would say that anjdhing the department has said or done in regard to the. matter has been with the view of protecting the position of the berry growers of British Columbia. As far as we are concerned at the moment the growers will be in a position to make up their own minds as to whether they wish to ship five hundred tons of berries to the United States, leaving it to the future to determine whether supplies can be placed in the other markets to which they usually send berries. We are not going to battle for -them or against them in that matter; we think that is something in which they themselves are most interested. We will assist them in every way possible in doing what they desire to do. But I should like to say that in making the distribution of the five hundred tons, or any other quantity that is to be exported from British Columbia to the United States, I do not think anyone will expect us to issue a permit to any one organization. Whatever permits are issued should be distributed over the whole industry in British Columbia; and in making that distribution the interests cf the berry growers of the province will be taken into consideration first. One of the factors to be kept in mind in arriving at any conclusion will be the question whether containers are available at the time the matter is under consideration; that is, some consideration has to be given to strawberries immediately, and to raspberries some two weeks hence, though I agree that provision must be made in advance so people may know what they are going to do, and they must know what the situation is going to be. When it becomes necessary to make a decision and when all the facts are known, the question whether or not containers are available will be one of the main considerations in the mind of the department in deciding what part of the product might be
{Mr. Gardiner.]
exported and what part might be marketed in our own country or in Great Britain, in accordance with the wishes of those who are growing the berries. In other words I do not want the house to think there is any controversy with regard to this matter which cannot be settled, better than anywhere else, among the berry growers of British Columbia themselves, as far as the marketing of the berries is concerned.
On the other question, dealing with the strike and the making of boxes in British Columbia, I have nothing to say this afternoon. I have not the information upon which to base any statement; therefore I leave that matter to be discussed by others who have the information at hand. As far as the marketing of these berries is concerned, however, no department of the government is going to do anything which will make it even possible for berries to rot unconsumed in the fields of the province of British Columbia.


Mr. THOMAS BEID (New Westminster):: Mr. Speaker, the matter brought before the house this afternoon by the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank) is indeed a serious one, in that it affects not only the supply of food, but also the livelihood of considerable numbers of farmers.
May I say first of all a word as to the remarks just concluded by the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner). The information he gave in the latter part of his speech is not borne out by the information submitted to us by those who are growing berries and those who are in charge of the canning factories. In the first part of his speech he read from a statement which said that one concern alone were 13,000 barrels short, and that 45.000 crates were needed. Then, in the concluding part of his remarks he pointed out that from the further information he had it would seem as though there were ample barrels and ample crates. To me there is a conflict of view in what he has said.


James Garfield Gardiner: I do not wish to be misquoted. If I left that impression, I did not intend to.


Thomas Reid: I thought you did.


James Garfield Gardiner: We had1 better straighten it out, then. The statement I made was that there are sufficient barrels with which to ship S02 to Britain, but I did not say there were sufficient containers of any other kind to market fruit. I did say if there are not sufficient containers for the marketing of this crop

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and the handling of the fruit, permission will be given to allow the fruit to go to the United States.


Thomas Reid: I am glad the minister mentioned something about fruit going to the United States, because there again the house has not been given information as to the price set for fruit going to Britain.
I do not think anyone will disagree with the attitude the farmers take, namely that they should be allowed an increase the same as those who strike for higher wages, and just as high a price as they can obtain, owing to the fact that all costs have increased. The fruit growers know about the market in the United States, and see a better local market this year on account of the fact that the price ceiling has been lifted on berries. I should be interested to know if the officials in the minister's department have set a price on berries which they have agreed to ship to Britain. I doubt if much of the fruit about which the minister has spoken will go to Britain, unless the price to the growers from the British authorities is as favourable as that which can be obtained on the local market.
As to the present strike, it is most unfortunate that the farmers must suffer loss. When the man who works for wmges goes on strike he does not draw pay during the strike period, and in this way he sustains a monetary loss, according to the number of weeks or months he is idle. But in respect to the berry growers, the situation is more acute. The grower plants a crop, lays out either his own. capital or that which he can borrow, and looks forward to harvesting the crop when the fruit is ripe. If anything goes wrong, there is a loss not only of food but also of financial returns to the farmer. Those returns must be obtained within a period of two to four months. If the crop spoils, then that farmer's entire livelihood, for the whole year, disappears. It is not just the income for one or two months, buit the year's income that he loses.
I listened to the Minister of Agriculture this afternoon when he referred to jam instead of butter being put on bread. It is high time that at least some members of parliament should * revise their views as to the value of fruit in the nation's diet. I do not know how many members read a report which was sent out only a few days ago on experiments in foods undertaken by the Department of National Health and'Welfare in connection with the food conditions among Indians. What did they find? They found that a diet of flour, pork, sugar and tea was most deficient, but
that when the Indians produced fruit, berries and so on, their improvement in health was very manifest.
Fruit is of greater value than some in this house and others outside have given to it. It contains vitamins and acids the body requires, and it is time we added more fruit to our food menus, rather than thinking of it as something extra to be taken and therefore not to be classed with potatoes, wheat and other grains.
Last year during the strike of employees of the American Can company farmers of one district in my constituency had to stand by day after day and see their crops rotting, although they were told that there was an ample supply of cans in the warehouse in Vancouver. I remember a delegation of farmers coming to me and saying, "Mr. Reid, if something is not done by the government, or if these men will not allow us to obtain cans, we are going to take the law into our own hands." They were serious about it. Those farmers from the municipalities of Delta and 'Richmond were prepared to take their guns, or staves and pitchforks, and move into the city of Vancouver, there forcibly to take cans from the warehouses. I advised them not to attempt to do any such thing. But I did say this, "You have a lesson to learn from the trade unions." I do not know whether that lesson will ever be heeded by the farmers. But if only the farmers could organize on the same scale and to the same extent as those in the labour unions-well, I ask-you, Mr. Speaker, just how many in this country would eat? What would happen if the farmers did not get their just requirements, or what they actually need to enable them to produce the necessary crops?
To return to a discussion of the lumber strike and the effect it has had on the farmers in the Fraser Valley, it is a little unfortunate that action has been delayed until this discussion developed in the house-because every member from British Columbia, individually, lias been appealing to the government for the past two weeks. The matter cannot wait much longer; otherwise the entire crop will perish.
The statement of the Minister of Agriculture that permission will be given for the shipment of at least 500,000 tons to the United States does not entirely solve the problem. There is also the question of the shipment of eggs, which require new crates, and the supply of these is short.
Added to that is the matter of fish shipments.	The hon. member for Vancouver
North (Mr. Sinclair) has pointed out that
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fish is shipped in boxes in a frozen state. The situation is, therefore, serious not only for the man who ships fruit, but also for the poultryman, the fisherman and the fish packers.
I am not going to discuss the merits or demerits of the strike-although this can be safely Said, that it is high time the labour laws in this country were clarified as to the respective jurisdictions of provincial and dominion governments. If there is anything that has beclouded the issue and befuddled the public, surely it has been the process of passing the buck from the provincial government to the dominion government, and the dominion taking the stand at times that it is up to the provincial governments to come in and do something. I suggest to the Minister of Labour that more consultation be had with the provinces with a view to clarifying the matter and coming to some definite agreement or policy with respect to the labour laws of this country. They cannot be brushed aside. Perhaps this is not the time to settle this question, when we are in the midst of heated strikes, but measures will have to be taken to prevent similar situations from arising in other parts of the dominion.
I rose particularly to support the hon. member for Fraser Valley and also to speak on behalf of those farmers in my district who are w-ondering what the outcome will be. I plead with the government not to stand idly by and see this waste- of good food and the loss of savings and capital of men who have invested their all in this business.


Mr. ANGUS MacINNIS (Vancouver East):: Mr. Speaker, as a British Columbia member who is deeply interested in this question I wish to say a few words on the matter brought up by the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank). May I say to the hon. member that he need not apologize for raising this very important question, and he certainly need not apologize for the way he has stated his case to the house. Perhaps it is not his case, but the case of the fruit growers of British Columbia.
The situation is so serious that I am sure everyone who speaks will be careful not to say anything that will help to make it worse than it is. The hon. member for Fraser Valley mentioned that there was a lumber shortage before the strike began, but I think it must be admitted that the strike has intensified the difficulty and perhaps precipitated the present crisis. If there had been no strike, while here and there, there might have been shortages of lumber for crates, it would not

have been a very serious matter. The ultimate solution of course is a quick ending to the strike and it seems to me that only the governments-the government here and the government in British Columbia-can bring that about. I am frank in saying that I have no solution to offer, but I do submit that one of the ways in which an end of the strike can be brought about is first to ascertain the facts or the questions at issue and then give publicity to any offers of settlement made by the parties concerned. In this way public opinion may be brought to bear against those who will not acquiesce when a reasonable offer is made.
The hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Reid) has pointed out, I think fairly, the difficulty of the position of the' fruit growers in British Columbia. This crop must be harvested vand shipped in a matter of days. There can be no delays. I should like to point out the social nature of our production in this day and age. It is quite clear that the British Columbia fruit grower does not grow' the fruit alone. He takes part in the growing of fruit, but he cannot complete the operation until the fruit has reached the ultimate consumer. It is quite clear that before it reaches the ultimate consumer the lumber worker must take part in the fruit growing, as well as the box manufacturer and a host of other people. We can no longer leave our economic life to the chances of a struggle between the various groups engaged in production, each working for its own end.
Two dr three important considerations must be kept in mind. The first is that quick action must be taken. We cannot wait even for a few days. Action must be taken immediately if the strawberry crop is to be saved. I followed carefully what the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) said, and I thought he indicated that he was going to give' direct reply to the questions asked yesterday by the hon. member for Fraser Valley. But I could not discover any direct reply to the hon. member's last question.


James Garfield Gardiner: We are prepared to give permits to export five hundred tons. That ought to be a sufficiently direct reply to the question.


Angus MacInnis: The permits should be
issued immediately if they are required immediately.


James Garfield Gardiner: The question asked was: Are you prepared to give permits for five hundred tons of ^raspberries which are not

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going to be picked for two weeks to be shipped to the United States? We said, "Yes." I do not know how that could be any more direct.


Angus MacInnis: I may be wrong, but that appears to be more direct that what the minister said a little while ago.
The second important point is that food should not be wasted. If there is any crime to-day more heinous than any other, it is the wasting of food. An appeal should be made to the parties in the dispute. We should not be hypocritical and talk about helping the-starving people of Europe while we allow food to go to waste in this country.
The third important point is that we should try to find ways and means of settling this dispute. I agree with the hon. member for New Westminster when he urges that there should be more cooperation between the provincial departments of labour and the federal Department of Labour. We are not yet out of the war crisis, and the cooperation and direction which the federal Department of Labour gave during the war should be continued, at least where it can be continued with the consent and cooperation of the provincial department of labour. I believe the British Columbia department of labour is more than willing to cooperate with the federal authorities.
I hope that no effort will be spared to arrive at a settlement as quickly as possible. If it would help toward a settlement I suggest that this house go on record in the form of a definite motion asking the parties concerned to refer all matters in dispute to arbitration, the findings to be retroactive from the date the strike began, and thus start immediately saving this food and the livelihood of the farmers of British Columbia.


Mr. H. W. HERRIDGE (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, I rise to make a few brief observations in connection with this most important matter. I first of all must congratulate the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank) upon the excellent presentation he made of this subject, so important to thousands of fruit growers in British Columbia. There is one thing about the hon. member for Fraser Valley-he hits straight from the shoulder, come hell or high water.
I listened with interest also to the hon. member for Yale (Mr. Stirling), who gave a clear and factual outline of the situation in the tree fruit industry. I listened to what was said of the waste of food, which I consider a crime, and to what was said about the shortage of crates and boxes and barrels and its effect upon the livelihood of a good many people in
British Columbia. I am not going to go into all that again; I concur in what has been said. I speak not only as a member of parliament but as a fruit .grower and as senior official of a fruit-growing organization representing a district of considerable size. I speak from experience. I know that at the present time there is an immense shortage of boxes and crates in the interior of British Columbia for products of the tree fruit industry. There is, I estimate, a shortage of from twelve to fifteen million such containers for the handling of this year's tree fruit crop.
I support the hon. member for Fraser Valley in his proposal that the government appoint a controller to get into operation these plants which are concerned with the manufacture of containers required in the shipping of perishable commodities. I think that is the first thing to be done.
I do not think it is necessary to have a lengthy debate on the matter. It is easy for most members to express their views in a few words. But I do wish, on behalf of the people I represent and on behalf of the tree fruit industry in the interior of British Columbia, to ask the government to give serious consideration to the proposals made by the hon. member for Fraser Valley.


Mr. E. D. FULTON (Kamloops):: Mr. Speaker, I rise briefly to associate myself with what has already been said by other British Columbia members as to the seriousness of this situation and to urge the government to take whatever action may be necessary to settle this dispute.
I .should, like to emphasize its seriousness from another aspect,-not merely to be critical of the government, but because the situation is fraught with dangers other than the danger to the fruit growers, which if not tackled immediately may involve us in situations which all members would wish to avoid. I want to read a dispatch appearing in to-day's Globe and Mail, reporting an incident which took place at Kamloops yesterday. It is found on page 19 and reads as follows:
Kamloops, B.C. June 6 (CP).-The Canadian Legion branch here to-day announced its intention to get materials through to the veterans' home project here following the action of veterans last night when they crossed International Woodworkers of America picket lines to deliver chimney flues to the site.
Legionnaires said they had requested the union executive to release flue material to complete 30 houses of the 100-home veterans' project on the ground the material was delivered to suppliers before the strike started, and did not receive a satisfactory reply
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In a statement the legion spokesman said: "Regardless of whether labour or management is the blockade, we intend to see that the veterans' homes get the material required. We are not taking sides in the dispute, but veterans' housing has our priority."
The dispatch continues:
The picket line was unmanned at the time.
The I.W.A. strike committee organized its pickets on learning of the legion's move, but reached the plant too late.
In common with other members who have spoken to-day I also am not going to take sides in this dispute, mainly for the reason I feel I am entirely unqualified, having no knowledge of the merits of the case. I have read that dispatch to suggest that the member for New Westminster (Mr. Reid) was correct when he said that it is essential that our labour laws be clarified. I would urge upon the government that they consult immediately with labour officials in the provinces to see if a labour code cannot be' devised for the settlement of such disputes, so that we can have in this very important sphere of our life the rule of law.	.
So far as the situation affecting the fruit growers is concerned, I feel there is no necessity to add anything to what has already been said. There is one suggestion I would make. I am not speaking on behalf of the berry, growers, but I am very much interested in whether a permit will be given for the export of these berries. Information has come to me that a certain number of barrels are available in the province of Ontario. I suggest that if the barrels are available the government subsidize their shipment to British Columbia in an effort to relieve the container shortage that is developing there. Those of us who come from the interior fruit growing part of British Columbia are told that even if the factories were to resume work to-morrow they would not be able to catch up with the box requirements this season, and that some damage is already being done. We hope the strike will be settled immediately; and I put forward this suggestion, that the government look into the question of shipping these containers out to British Columbia with a view to repairing the damage already being done through the shortage of crates, owing to the length of time that work in the factories has already -been stopped.


Mr J. H. MATTHEWS (Kootenay East):: As one of the members from British Columbia I would be derelict in my duty if I did not rise and support the appeal made by the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank) in this fruit crisis. I want to support him in his appeal to the government that they

immediately put in a controller to take charge, because that would have an immediate effect upon the fruit crisis from which the province of British Columbia is suffering.
There are a number of fruit growers in my constituency in the Creston valley area, and while I am speaking here this afternoon I can picture the scene as it exists in British Columbia. The sun is shining brightly, and the pickers by the hundreds are out in the fields, picking the strawberries at this time. While they are picking, work is going on in the packing sheds. As fast as the berries are brought in they are prepared and taken to shipping points in the evening hours. But that is not all that is going on. While the picking and the packing are going on, men are working feverishly- putting together the containers into which this fruit is to be packed. They are not only working all through the day but, as I have seen them time and again, working all through the night hours by electric light preparing the containers for the packing of the fruit next day. These fruit containers come to the growers in knocked-down form, and the boxes and shooks have to be put together to be ready for the next day's packing. That is the picture when all is going well, when the shooks and boxes and containers and barrels and so on are all on the farmer's property.
But imagine what is going on in the minds of these fruit growers this afternoon. Nature has been exceedingly kind, and the harvest is there in all its fullness and beauty. There is, however, no peace in the mind of the grower. He knows that a matter of a few hours or a change in the weather conditions can mean the loss of that particular crop. So that he is wondering just what he is going to do, when he sees that the shed which is usually filled with box shooks and containers is empty, and he has nothing on hand with which he can pack his crop. This man is not a party in any shape or form to the strike which is now going on. He is the victim of it, and because he is the victim, and a very unwilling victim, we are appealing to-day. I for one would not like to say anything which would prejudice the case, because the matter is now being dealt with by the authorities in British Columbia. But I appeal to the government to put in a controller at once and to get these box mills opened and the boxes produced, so that the fruit growers of British Columbia can save their fruit crop. Then, when that has been done, time can be given if that is what ,the Minister of Labour wants. If he desires to give these people some time to cool off and look at the situation in full security, they will have ample opportunity to do so. But

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these things should not be done at the cost of the peace of mind and the livelihood of thousands of people all through our fair province of British Columbia.
I rise heartily to support the appeal made by the hon. member, and I so state.


Mr. JAMES SINCLAIR (Vancouver North):: As the original seconder of this motion I believe I should say a few words.
I do not represent very many farmers; my riding is principally an industrial riding; but as a British Columbia member, especially as a colleague of my very good friend the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank), I feel that I should add a few words about the present deplorable situation.
The house first knew of this matter some two weeks ago, when the hon. member for Fraser Valley had a warm exchange with the Minister of Labour (Mr. Mitchell), as a consequence of which he announced that he intended to adjourn the house the following Monday. In the evening he co-opted the aid of the hon. member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. Gibson) and myself in his cause, and explained how for the past three months he had been endeavouring to get action on a situation which he saw as long ago as January was going to affect the packing of this crop. He has made the point, which may have been missed a bit, that the lumber strike was only the last blow is far as the shortage of containers was con-rerned. The root of the trouble was a price ceiling matter last winter, when manufacturers of wooden goods on the west coast found that the ceiling price on wooden containers was so low that it paid them better to put their logs into lumber. Because of that, over the last winter, when our cooperages and our box factories should have been building up a stockpile in anticipation of a heavy field crop, very little was done. He pointed out that he wrote repeatedly to the various government agencies explaining our situation, and finally, on April 30, because of the dire emergency, Donald Gordon did give this open price permit to the manufacturers, too late, however, to be of effective use, since the strike opened on May 17.
My colleague the hon. member for Comox-Alberni and I were very much impressed with these arguments. Each of us has our own connection with this dispute. The hon. member for Comox-Alberni represents the riding in British Columbia which has without doubt the greatest number of loggers in it. He himself is connected with the logging industry. In my riding we have the greatest number of sawmill workers. Certainly the hon. member for Fraser Valley represents the berry growers of
British Columbia. Each of us over the weekend telephoned to our friends; the hon. member for Comox-Alberni, to the operators; myself, to the union leaders; and the hon. member for Fraser Valley, to the berry growers. We thought through these telephone conversations we had achieved some sort of settlement, and as a consequence of that we interviewed a committee of the cabinet on Monday morning, saying that we thought that if an appeal were made by the government to both sides of the dispute to save this fruit crop, action would be taken. The Acting Prime Minister (Mr. Usley) made a straight appeal on behalf of the government and the people of Canada that afternoon; and the operators immediately agreed. That morning I had telephoned to the head of the I.W.A. in Vancouver forewarning him that the. government was going to make this appeal and, because I have a very great sympathy with these sawmill workers in my riding, I suggested to him that he should be the first to say, "Yes, the union are not striking against the food producers, the union are not trying to sabotage the farmers; the union's strike is against the operators, and we will agree to go back to the box factories on the terms suggested by the Prime Minister", with the understanding that whatever final settlement was made in the timber strike would be made retroactive for those who went back to the box factories. I was very much disappointed, and I am sure the people in general were, when Mr. Harold Pritchett, leader of the I.W.A., refused that offer, because I am convinced that the people I represent, the people residing in the sawmill towns of Fraser Mills, Port Moody, Barnett and North Vancouver, do not want to see the fruit industry of British Columbia ruined. Actually the box industry is a very small part of the timber industry of British Columbia. All told, it may require 50.000,000 feet out of a total cut of 3,000 million, or not more than two per cent of the total, and the opening of these few cooperages and box factories would have very little effect on the eventual ending of the strike. So I say in all sincerity that I think the union leaders, not the rank and file, have certainly alienated public opinion in British Columbia by their refusal to accept the appeal made by the Acting Prime Minister on behalf of the government and the people of Canada two weeks ago Monday.
A year ago we had an almost similar situation in British Columbia, a container strike, but this time it was the American Can company's employees who were on strike. As the hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Reid) has already pointed out, it was his riding which was affected the most. Instead of strawberries
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and raspberries it was peas. When the farmers were dumping their peas in the Fraser river public pressure became so great that the government put a controller in the American
Can company, and afterwards a settlement was negotiated. The greater part of that crop was saved. It is our contention as British Columbia members that the government can do an exactly similar thing immediately in relation to the cooperages and box factories of British Columbia, to save, not all the crop, because I am convinced by the figures read by the hon. member for Fraser Valley and the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) that even a 24-hour a day production in these small box factories of British Columbia will not be sufficient to supply containers for this record crop we are expecting; but if such a controller were put in to-morrow morning, a very great part of that crop would be saved.
The Minister of Agriculture expressed a fear that there might not be sufficient logs to permit the operation of these box companies very long. I can assure him that there are enough logs in the water in my constituency of Vancouver North to keep the factories running throughout the summer.


Mr. STIRLING:: And in the interior.


James Sinclair: There are logs in the water, in the harbour, across the lower mainland, and, I am sure, in the interior sufficient to supply material for these containers.


James Garfield Gardiner: Are they available?


James Sinclair: Yes, they would be available.
As far as the settlement of the lumber strike is concerned, I am not mentioning the issues of the strike at all, but I am concentrating on the strike as far as it affects these little box factories. Knowing somewhat of conditions in British Columbia; I believe there is very little likelihood, now that the Sloan report has been turned down by the union, of any settlement being effected for at least a month, because in the natural condition of British Columbia we are now approaching what is called the fire season there. The woods are so dry that logging operations are forbidden; the logging operators will not be operating for a month or six weeks, and they will, therefore, not be very strongly disposed to conduct further negotiations immediately, in view of the fact that they could not operate their camps in any event. If such is the case we can look forward to the complete wastage of our fruit, egg and fish harvest this summer, unless immediate action is taken by the

government to instal a controller in the box factories and cooperages of British Columbia to-morrow morning.


Mr. ILSLEY:: May I ask the hon. gentleman a question? If a controller were appointed, is there any assurance whatever that the men would go back to work?


James Sinclair: I feel very badly, I may say, in having let down the Acting Prime Minister previously. I did convey to him, at our meeting, the assurance I thought I had from the leaders that they would consent to accepting his appeal, which they did not do. I do not wish to put myself in the position of speaking on behalf of those who are leading the union. I do not, however, know of any strike in Canada where the government put in a controller, where the men have refused to go back. In the case of the American Can strike last summer, the men went back immediately.


Mr. MAYHEW (Victoria, B.C.):: I do not come from a rural riding, but my constituency is surrounded by fruit growers and particularly by small fruit farmers, and I wish first of all to congratulate the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank) on the way he has presented his case to-day. I think he has set a very high standard for himself and for his future work in this house. However, there are one or two points he mentioned to which I wish to refer, and one was mentioned by the hon. member for Vancouver North (Mr. Sinclair).
One point referred to was the open invoice which was permitted by Donald Gordon. That was merely an open invoice; it was not an open price, and it was something that was to be settled at a later date. It is a small point, but it is one to which reference has been made and I thought I should make it clear. Immediately that letter was issued, the wartime prices and trade board did send to Vancouver someone to negotiate with the box manufacturers for a price on crates and hallocks and eventually they arrived at a price which gave that industry the ten per cent increase. They no sooner had that adjustment made than the strike occurred, and naturally that tied up things entirely. As to whether that price would be sufficient now, it is not for me to say, but probably it would be open for negotiation. Certainly at the time the price was sufficient to maintain a profit.	[DOT]
It has been said here that the cooperages and box plants have been closed down for lack of logs or in consequence of converting their lumber to other uses. That is hardly

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the truth. The cooperage does not make lumber; it makes only barrels, and the barrels are not only distributed in British Columbia, but are exported almost throughout the world. One of the cooperage factories is next door to my closest neighbour in business, and therefore I know they have been going steadily ever since the war began, and there was no let-up in that cooperage plant prior to the strike.
I know it would help greatly if the box factories would open and get going. I know it would help considerably to have some of the fruit for which we have not packages exported to the United States. I know it would help if we could have the cooperages making barrels, because that is where our shortage is greatest. We have not enough to take care of the present crop; I understand that our shortage is 35.000 barrels. But putting in a controller, much as I should like to see it done in these industries, particularly the interior box factories, would not entirely solve the situation unless we included as well the logging operations in the greater part of Victoria.
I appeal to the box manufacturers, the workers and the loggers to try to settle the strike and to do so within the shortest possible time. It is going to have a continuing effect and this strike will spread to many other industries. This morning I had a long appeal from the pulp and paper association, the one I am most interested in, pointing out that a month is the maximum period during which any of them can run with the present stoppage of work in the mills; and if the pulp and paper mills go down, then again containers will be badly affected. I think, therefore, that a further appeal should be made to these people to resolve their differences and get back to work.
It should not be a matter of trying to see who can get the most out of the short supply of material. I do not think either side is wholly to blame in trying to grab for itself more than is really coming to it; but as far as the fruit is concerned the consumer in this instance can, I believe, help the producer or the farmer to take care of his fruit crop. It is not so long ago that we had to take our fruit to the factories or take it to our homes, not in to-day's modern type of boxes, crates and hallocks. Many a time we had to pack our fruit in whatever we could obtain. We packed our apples in bags and brought our berries in containers of many kinds, and I am sure the consumer to-day would be only too glad "to bring home his berries himself in 63260-144
whatever containers he has. In that way he would help out considerably in the supply of crates, boxes and hallocks.
I appeal also to the producers. I think they can go a little too far in their price. The price ceiling has been removed and to-day they are not giving very much consideration to the consumer. If we want the price ceiling to remain in effect in Canada and operate fairly to all, the first thing we must do is to stamp out the man or woman who wants to be greedy or to take advantage of the situation in which we find ourselves to-day.
In the present situation our first obligation is to see that there is fair play. I am afraid that in this strike, from the point of view of the farmers, the situation is not what it should be. I understood last night that strawberries were selling at forty-five cents a hallock on the coast at this time of the year. I am sure that is too much. The consumer has some rights in this world, not only the producer, and I am a producer myself.
Yesterday the hon. member for Eraser Valley said that the berries were rotting in the ground. I am sure he did not wish to convey quite that impression. The height of the strawberry season will be about from the 17th to the 20th of this month. Raspberries will come a little later and cherries about the same time. I believe we have at the present time enough crates and barrels to take care of the immediate supply of *strawberries and cherries and some of the raspberries. But if these containers are hll used up for that purpose we are going to be short for the later crops. I quite agree with those who say that, no matter how quickly we get back into the production of crates and hallocks, we shall never catch up with the demand this year. This will be the largest fruit crop in the history of British Columbia. I-t is estimated that the apple crop in the Okanagan valley alone will amount to eight million boxes. I am sure that would sound like splendid news to the starving people of Europe and to the children in England who probably have not seen an apple for years. Are we, the workers, factory men and farmers, going to fight with one another and prevent that badly needed food from going to these people? Surely to heaven there is more humanity in the people of Canada than would seem evident at the present time. If there is anything anyone can say or do to-day, not to agitate the matter but to appeal to the sfnse of justice and the humanitarian feelings of people to get the men back to work producing so that others may eat, instead of having

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the food wasted, let us do it. I say it is flaunting providence for us to let this stuff go to waste to-day, and in the end we shall pay for it unless we take immediate steps to correct the situation.


Mr. C. C. I. MERRITT (Vancouver-Bur-rard):: I think all hon. members who have spoken this afternoon have emphasized the fact that one must be very careful not to say anything which would seem like taking sides. That is probably a wise attitude for hon. members to adopt, because even, those from British Columbia cannot know the full facts of the case. One gets the viewpoints of the opposing sides, but>not being on the spot, it is impossible for one to know which combination of facts to accept. There is, however, one thing upon which I think all hon. members, regardless of party, have shown complete agreement; that is, that the public interest is the most important matter we have to consider, and that in this strike the interests of the people of Canada and the whole economy of British Columbia are vitally affected.
This afternoon we heard, particularly from the mover of this motion as well as from other hon. members, how important this strike is in its effect upon the fruit crop, and I want to add a few words to show how important this strike will be in its effect upon the housing situation next winter; what an important effect the lack of the lumber which could have been produced during the period of the strike will have, particularly upon the comfort of veterans in the country during next winter, because I think inevitably these housing troubles fall most heavily upon the veteran. Then, of course, the whole economy of British Columbia is directly affected by a large-scale strike in our chief industry. I do not suppose we shall ever Joe able to measure accurately the extent of that loss to the province. So I cannot help feeling that whatever side one takes in this dispute, whether the side of the operators or the side of the loggers, the side of the public is much more important than either.
I should like to read an extract from an editorial which appeared in the Vancouver Sun of May 23 of this year, and which seemed to me to put the position very well. This was written before the failure of the last attempt at settlement by Chief Justice Sloan. The editorial states:	-
A swift settlement of the woodworkers' strike appears likely through mediation of Chief Justice Sloan. When it is all over it will have been
CMr. Mayhew.]
largely a pushing match between organized labour and organized employers. Each side will take up its respective position at the place where the dispute comes to rest and business relationships will be resumed from there.
This is a rough method of arriving at industrial peace. The public, which has been squeezed in the test of strength, knows just how rough it is in its effects. Yet the government, representing the public, is content with its role as an ineffectual referee. Instead of making an intelligent analysis of the issues and informing the public of the facts, the government gives its tacit approval to the theory that economic might is economic right.
This is a long editorial; otherwise I should like to put it all on record, but in conclusion it says:
The more that the rights and powers of unions are guaranteed and defined by law, the more their duties and responsibilities will be brought under the control of law.
Until that time comes, labour and management in British Columbia will continue to batter out costly compromises by rule of thumb. The public would prefer a more sensible approach, based on law and equity.
On May 21 the Vancouver Province also published an editorial dealing with this matter. The editors of these newspapers probably know more about the merits of this strike than private members of this house can know, and the Province says:
There are so many things in connection with the strike that revolt the common sense of the ordinary man, wherever liis sympathies .lie.
Three of those things mentioned in the editorial are:
The idleness of nearly forty thousand men in the face of a serious building material scarcity.
The utter waste involved in the loss of millions of work hours.
The failure of either provincial or federal government to take a strong position though the interest of the public is paramount.
It seems to me these two newspapers have taken the position that has been taken by hon. members of this house, namely that the interests of the public are paramount and that it is time a lead was given by the government as to the manner in which this strike may be satisfactorily settled. With the failure of Chief Justice Sloan's last attempt I suppose the Minister of Labour (Mr. Mitchell) will have other irons in the fire and other negotiations to put forward, and I know we all wish him success in those negotiations. But, as the hon. member for Vancouver North (Mr. Sinclair) has said, this strike may easily go on for another month or so. While the woods may be closed down for that period, in order to reduce the fire hazard, I think it is almost equally important that the sawmills should' be brought back into operation right away. I believe public opinion in the country and particularly in British Col-

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umbia, which is principally concerned, is probably pretty clear in connection with the strike. Of course the minister will know better than I what that public opinion is; but I suggest to him that in this, perhaps more than in any other strike we have had in the country since V-J day, there is a great opportunity for him to give leadership to that almost completely formed public opinion, and move in and bring about a settlement of the strike very shortly. I do not care what method he uses, whether it be through a controller in some plant, through a public appeal, or some other method at his disposal. Whatever method he uses, I am sure all hon. members will support him. If the debate this afternoon has dong anything to clarify public opinion, then surely it must show to those who are concerned that we here consider the public interest of much greater importance than the difference between the two contesting parties.


Mr. H. C. GREEN (Vancouver South):: Mr. Speaker, this motion has to do primarily with the position in which the small fruit and tree fruit industries of British Columbia find themselves at this time. The situation is tragic. It is tragic for the men and women engaged in the industry and also for the other people in British Columbia. It is tragic, indirectly, for people throughout Canada and for those in other nations of the world where there is a great shortage of food.
The hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank) was right in bringing the matter before the house this afternoon. I am afraid, however, that it is only one part of the difficulty, because the tragedy goes much deeper. Lumber happens to be the chief product of British Columbia, and with the lumber industry tied up as it is to-day in that province, every activity in the province is affected. This tie-up also affects directly the prairie provinces and eastern Canada and those overseas markets to which we ship a large percentage of our lumber production.
I suggest that this afternoon the Minister of Labour (Mr. Mitchell) should make a full and frank statement of his views on the whole situation. He has been in touch with it from the start. He arranged to have Chief Justice Sloan act as mediator. I believe that there was nothing official about the appointment, but that it was made only in an attempt to get the two parties together. The chief justice of our province is a young man. He was born there and knows the lumber industry from top to bottom. Only recently he concluded a thorough survey of the industry, as the sole
commissioner, appointed under a royal commission, and he brought in an excellent report. I do not think anyone from that province would question his standing.


Mr. MACKENZIE:: Hear, hear.


Thomas Reid: Hear, hear.


Howard Charles Green: On Monday of this week the chief justice brought in his recommendations as to the way- in which this strike should be settled. He recommended:
1.	A wage increase of 15 cents an hour "across the board."
2.	An average working week of 44 hours in the logging industry, in the following manner: 48 hours in the months of April May, June, July, August and September, with time-and-a-half pay above 44 hours, and a 40-hour week during the other months of the year. A straight 44-hour week in sawmills.
3.	A voluntary revokable check-off for union dues.
It is understood, of course, that between April and September it is possible to work longer hours in the woods than during the winter mojiths.
The premier of British Columbia issued a statement at once suggesting that both parties accept these findings. A joint statement was issued by Premier Hart and Labour Minister George Pearson, in which they said this, among other things:
With the national housing emergency still prevailing, with a food shortage in Europe aggravated by the potential slowing up of shipments of food stuffs and with the general disruptions of the economy of Canada and B.C. in particular, as a result of this strike, we appeal to lumber operators and workers alike to come to a common accord and resume their labours in conformity with the recommendations laid by the chief justice.
We feel that Mr. Justice Sloan has given a most careful and thorough study of these problems.
Then the Minister of Labour (Mr. Mitchell) made a statement in reply to the hon. member for Nanaimo (Mr. Pearkes), as reported at page 2154 of Hansard for June 4. Dealing with the report of the chief justice the minister said:
I hope that both sides will have the good sense to accept what I call a very fair report. It is not often that I use an expression of that kind in the House of Commons. I always endeavour to walk down the middle of the road.
Mr. Coldwell: To sit on the fence.
Mr. Mitchell: Well, that is all^ right. I believe it is sensible, it is fair, and it is sound.
I do not know whether the minister meant that sitting on the fence was fair, sensible and sound, or that the report of the chief justice could be described in that way.
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Humphrey Mitchell: My hon. friend is giving the best exhibition of sitting on the fence that I have seen in many long days. He wishes me to be frank, but he is afraid to be frank himself.


Thomas Reid: Sometimes it is safer.


Howard Charles Green: I think the minister meant that the statement of the chief justice was fair, sensible and sound. Then he continued:
I hope that the I.W.A. will have the good sense to see to it that they recommend it to their membership so that the necessary assistance can be given to farmers of British Columbia in connection with the forthcoming crop in that province.
That was three days ago. Press dispatches this morning from the Montreal Gazette state that the chief justice and the minister of labour of the province have been in touch with our federal Minister of Labour continuously up to the present time. The I.W.A. has rejected the proposal put forward by the chief justice, whereas the operators have accepted it.
The Minister of Labour is in a difficult spot; there is no doubt about that. I have, great sympathy for him. But a recommendation has been made. Responsible people have said it is a fair recommendation; and if the Minister of Labour believes that is so, then he should say so this afternoon, so that the people in British Columbia may have his statement before them.


James Lorimer Ilsley: He said so, did he not? He said so the other day.


Howard Charles Green: I should like to have him say it to-day. I am afraid that in connection with these disputes we are getting into a position where everyone is neutral, with the result that there are certain people who have as their objective the creation of trouble of one kind or another in the country. Right along, the public have had a tendency to say, "Oh, well, it is just one of those things that cannot be helped. We have just to suffer and put up with it. After a while everything will be straightened out." I believe we shall have to devise,some way of getting the actual facts before the public better than we are doing to-day, and also of having these strikes settled more quickly. They are upsetting the whole economy of the country, and we must devise some way in which they can be settled more quickly than they are under present conditions.
I would ask the Minister of Labour to go fully into the question when he speaks. So fas as I know, I believe everybody would be wise to get right back to work on the basis of the proposal the chief justice has made. It

is only for one year; I understand it is recommended that the basis be accepted only for that length of time; during that time it might be possible to work out a solution more satisfactory to both sides. Action should be speeded up right away in order that we can have the wheels turning and supply the starving people in other parts of the world with food in so far as Canada is able to do so.


Mr. H. G. ARCHIBALD (Skeena):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to state first that I am not going to take a non-partisan view; I am going to take a partisan stand on this matter. I notice that this debate has been brought about because a crisis now exists in connection with the packing of fruit. If it had not been that there was this crisis in fruit packing; if it had been just a case of the loggers being out on strike, then, if any one had risen and pointed out that the families of the loggers were suffering he would never have been able to be heard on this floor.


James Sinclair: Did you try?


Harry Grenfell Archibald: No, I did not try. I just happen to know that.


James Sinclair: The hon. member for Fraser Valley did on behalf of his farmers.


Harry Grenfell Archibald: It was tried last year in connection with the Ford strike. This strike has been caused because for years there has been an exploitation of the loggers. I happen to know because I have worked in the camps and I have worked on the rigging. During the war the loggers received no wage rate comparable with those paid to war workers, especially in the shipyards.


James Sinclair: On the Queen Charlotte islands they got $18 a day.


Harry Grenfell Archibald: They paid high wages on the Queen Charlotte islands, but I should like to see the hon. member in one of those camps on the Queen Charlotte islands where it rains all the time.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: He was in Africa.


Harry Grenfell Archibald: He was in Africa where it is nice and sunny. I went through the battle of Prince Rupert and at times it was rather damp. I was sent by a government -that did not have sand enough to conscript enough men to send over there. That is.the answer.


James Sinclair: You were conscripted!


Harry Grenfell Archibald: I was not conscripted.

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James Sinclair: You dodged the draft in the shipyards as long as you could.


Harry Grenfell Archibald: During the last war the camps were cleaned up by the I.W.W. They put blankets in the camp and had better meals served in spite of the opposition of the camp operators. We now come to another cleaning up process. During the war these men did not go out on strike. They abided by the rules laid down, and now they are asking for a square deal. I notice in these disputes that the blame is always placed on the industrial worker. I am not saying that that is done all the time in this house, but a great many times the strikers are blamed. In this case they are blamed for not separating the box industry in order that the box manufacturers may be supplied. Once you start that sort of thing, it will be just the thin edge of the wedge to break the strike.
These men live under constant fear. The very nature of the work makes their life in camp bitter and harsh. After years of struggle in the camps, these men have realized that the social conditions in the camps must be changed. These men live an isolated existence and they have a great deal of difficulty in forming a home. They work in the camps for three or six months completely isolated from their families, and then they come in and blow all their earnings. I do not blame them because I would do so myself if I were in their position. By means of this strike, they are trying to attract the attention of the people of the country to the conditions under which they live. This is one of the most dangerous occupations in the country, even more dangerous than mining. It is almost like war when you get up on the rigging and are working under high speed and constant tension.


Mr. J. L. GIBSON (Comox-Alberni):: Mr. Speaker, I had not intended to take part in this debate because I felt that the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank) had presented the case very well for the fruit growers. I sincerely hope that the Acting Prime Minister (Mr. Ilsley) and the Minister of Labour (Mr. Mitchell) will see fit to consider his recommendation to open the box factories. I know they are both too old hands at this business to walk into any obvious trap which would result in dissension being created between the government and the workers. From my own experience I have a feeling that the leadership of the unions might conceivably be anxious to have the government and the workers come to blows. That would be a most unfortunate thing to have happen.
The hon. member for Skeena (Mr. Archibald), with his vast experience in the lumber industry, has made some harsh statements with regard to the conditions under which the men live. I am glad that he took a partisan stand on the matter because I expected that that would be exactly what he would do. I happen to be familiar with the lumber industry and I can say that it pays the highest wages of any industry in Canada. One of the recommendations made by Chief Justice Sloan will result in dishwashers in the camps, the men in the kitchen, being paid 87 for an eight-hour day. That does not sound to me to be exploitation, especially when compared with the conditions that exist in other parts of Canada.
My hon. friend said that wages did not increase in the lumber industry during the war, but I would point out that there has been an over-all increase of 57 per cent. Of all the workers in Canada I think the loggers were probably the better treated. The operators were well treated at the same time. The lumbering industry is the one industry in Canada that has the least to complain about. As I say, wage costs increased 57 per cent. The cost of manufacturing or producing a thousand feet of logs increased 107 per cent at the same time.
My hon. friend said that there were no strikes in the industry during the war, but I found that it was not until Russia entered the conflict that the labour leaders in British Columbia began to be concerned about whether Canada produced any lumber at all. They certainly were not the least bit concerned about Great Britain getting any. I can assure the house about that.
I have tried to take some part in the settlement of this strike in British Columbia. My constituency has probably a higher percentage of lumber workers than any other in the province. I am probably a poor politician, but I took it upon myself to reply to the telegram which Mr. Pritchett sent to all members of the house asking for our opinion on this strike. I took it upon myself to wire back my views on the matter in specific terms. I did not quibble about the situation at all. I told Mr. Pritchett that I believed it would be a very fair settlement if there was a fifteen cents an hour over-all wage increase, but I said that I thought the forty-four hour week should continue for the present because we needed lumber so badly. That was about two weeks before Chief Justice Sloan brought in his recommendations.

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I suggested also that the union security issue ' should go to arbitration. Mr. Pritchett replied to me in the following words:
If same sentiments existed with operators' representatives as you have expressed dispute could be settled in fifteen minutes.
There you have approval of substantially the same suggestions that were made by Chief Justice Sloan. Mr. Pritchett expressed his approval of that settlement at that time.


Major James William Coldwell: How long ago was that?


John Lambert Gibson: On May 25.


Mr. MacNICOL:: When did the strike start?


John Lambert Gibson: On May 15. Mr. Pritchett, of course, would not miss the opportunity to create any dissension he could, because immediately he received my telegram it was broadcast all around Vancouver and British Columbia that the operators were weakening, that Gibson Brothers and certain of the small operators were -looking for a settlement of the strike but that we were coerced into withholding a settlement. That has no foundation in fact at all.


Thomas Reid: Have you communicated with him since?


John Lambert Gibson: I have not heard from him since. I do not care to communicate with him any more because, so far as I am concerned, he is entirely unreliable. They took my telegram with reference to fifteen cents an hour increase and a forty-four hour week, and then their paper came out with the statement that Gibson suggested that a fifteen cents an hour increase and a forty-hour week be given. That was absolutely untrue. My suggestion was a forty-four hour week. So that I have lost all sympathy with the leaders of the lumber workers. I feel that Mr. Justice Sloan's report was very fair and an equitable solution of a difficult problem out there. I believe now, unless the government steps in, that if a secret ballot were taken of the lumber workers they would return to work. I was talking with Port Alberni on the long-distance telephone last night. The union had called a meeting there to discuss Mr. Sloan's proposals, and they used the old strong-arm union tactics of no secret ballot. With 400 men there it takes courage for a man to stand up and attempt to go against the wishes of the leaders who want to continue the strike. I just wanted to put that statement on the record in reply to the hon. member for Skeena.


Mr. J. H. BLACKMOBE (Lethbridge):: Mr. Speaker, now that the British Columbia

members have expresed themselves with respect to the question of assuring an adequate supply of containers for the British Columbia berry producers, I believe it is fitting that the Alberta members should go on record with regard to this whole question.
We sympathize deeply with the British Columbia fruit growers, first because they live in our sister province of British Columbia, and, second, because they are our fellow agriculturists, fellow tillers of the soil. Theirs are the hazards from weather, disease and insects, and theirs are the anxieties concerning markets and prices which are common to all agriculturists everywhere, wheat growers and all other producers of primary products.
We are perturbed because of the danger too of the loss of great quantities of fruit, first, because it means the loss of food valuable and precious in this time of threatened famine, and, second, because the fruit which the people of Alberta use comes in the main from British Columbia.
We are anxious about the lumber strike. It is hard for us to understand fully this lumber strike, but the remarks of the hon. member for Comox-AIberni (Mr. Gibson) have given us some insight into the whole situation. We deeply regret that some formula has not been found and agreed upon, at least to tide us over a serious situation.


James Horace King: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but I call his attention to standing order No. 31, which requires that speeches must be relevant to the motion that is before the chair, and the motion before us is to discuss problems in British Columbia. I do not think I should permit the house to discuss what is going on in any other province than the one mentioned in the motion.


John Horne Blackmore: I can only guess at what Your Honour is saying, because it is impossible to hear you down here. I shall endeavour to speak loud enough so that Your Honour can hear what I am saying.
It seems to me that some formula ought to have been discoverable somewhere to tide us over not only a serious situation regarding fruit and egg and fish supplies, which are all endangered by the strike, but also a dangerous housing situation from which we are all beginning to suffer across this country.
We see in the situation a warning that the most careful attention must yet be given to the whole matter of equity and stability in our economy. The remarks of the two members who spoke just before me clearly indicate the sharp cleavage of opinion which exists

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in that part of the country and which must somehow or another be reconciled. Ways and means must be found of establishing and maintaining equitable and stable prices and wages and dependable and adequate markets as a fundamental basis for confidence in industry. Everywhere in this country to-day there is a loss of confidence. Just what are the causes we can only conjecture, but certainly something serious and earnest must be done. That is the way we feel about it.
I should like to congratulate the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank) upon the excellent way he presented his case and upon the courage he exercised in bringing the whole matter to the attention of the house. I wish to assure him and all our fellow citizens in British Columbia that we from Alberta are with him.


Mr. T. J. BENTLEY (Swift Current):: I do not profess to deal in any knowing way with the situation at British Columbia, but I did like the presentation of the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank). I want to point out how the situation in British Columbia affects us on the prairies. It does not affect us as vitally, of course, as British Columbia itself. Nevertheless in the part of the prairies from which I come we depend almost entirely for our fruit supplies on imports, chiefly from British Columbia; and in a year like this, when a great many parts of Saskatchewan have been visited with frost which is likely to destroy our crops of wild fruit, our fruit supplies from outside are more important than in ordinary years. To get our fruit from British Columbia we must get it in containers, so that we in Saskatchewan are much concerned to see that the proposal of the hon. member for Fraser Valley is carried out in the terms proposed.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Mr. Speaker-


Angus MacInnis: On a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Labour (Mr. Mitchell) would make a statement before the hon. member for Fraser Valley closes the debate?


Humphrey Mitchell: I have no objection, although I have nothing to add, because I think hon. members have covered the waterfront already. But if the house thinks it necessary I shall make one or two observations.
I have not changed my opinion from the day I answered the question addressed to me by the hon. member for Nanaimo (Mr. Pearkes). I think it was a fair and reasonable settlement, and I hope even at this late date the leaders of the men will have the 63260-145J
good sense to accept it, in the interests of organized labour; let us put it in that way..
I have seen the development of that organization in British Columbia. It had its genesis-during the difficult period of the war. The hon. member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. Gibson) has said that there is a group of so-called leaders in this country who, prior to Russia coming into the war, were not greatly concerned about what happened to our way of life. I think that is a bald statement of fact and the country should know it.


Angus MacInnis: You should have known before the last election. You were so friendly.


Humphrey Mitchell: I do not know whether they voted for my hon. friend but they ran a candidate against me. My hon. friend, like myself, knows the game.


Angus MacInnis: That is right.


Humphrey Mitchell: 
Major James William Coldwell: Or the profits of the corporations. Put in all three.


Humphrey Mitchell: I shall come to that: I am glad the hon. member mentioned it. My mind goes back to 1919. I do not think we have now such war profiteers as emerged from
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the first great war, and it is to the credit of the government and of the Canadian people that we passed through the recent war without any serious accusations of dishonesty in connection with the billions of dollars which were spent for the successful prosecution of the war. Also let it be remembered that our money is worth more than it was in 1919. It is not fair to make such representations to working people as one hears from some members of the opposition, and I do not believe that our friends of the Conservative, the C.C.F. and the Social Credit parties, in their quiet or more sensible moments, believe some of the things they say.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The Conservatives are always sensible.


Humphrey Mitchell: I shall comment on that in a moment. What my Conservative friends want, for reasons best known to themselves, is a complete lifting of the price structure.


Mr. SMITH (Calgary West):: Nobody ever said that at any time.


Humphrey Mitchell: My hon. friend is prob-.ably sorry that he said it.


Arthur Leroy Smith: It never was said.


Humphrey Mitchell: I shall take my hon. Triend's word for it. I see that an hon. member representing another group, the member for Vancouver East (Mr. Maclnnis), is :ready to jump on me. His party thinks you 'can maintain a stable price structure and at tthe same time increase wages out of all proportion to what they should be in conformity with that structure. Some of the younger men who spoke this afternoon have no personal knowledge of what we went through after the last war, so that there is some excuse for their ignorance. But I recall how the working classes suffered through the almost uncontrolled inflationary movement which took place particularly in the year following the ending of the first great war.


Mr. JOHNSTON:: You are getting up pretty fast now.


Humphrey Mitchell: That may be true. My hon. friend is doing his part in that direction, too. I do not need to remind hon. members that it is not too easy to say the things I am saying at the moment, but I think that if all of us said them it would give leadership in this country.


Charles Edward Johnston: We would be called to (order if we said what you are saying now.


Mr. MUTCH:: The hon. member is out of order. We are not in committee.


Humphrey Mitchell: I am not going to take ;he position that you can protect the living standards of the farmers and working people without some measure of control. It is the privilege of those who take the opposite point of view to express it, but in that regard I think I know what makes the clock tick.
In connection with this dispute in British Columbia, all we asked was that these several .actories which manufacture the necessary containers for the fruit should be reopened. I sometimes wonder what would happen if the farmers took a leaf out of some people's books and went on strike themselves. To my mind it is absolutely indefensible under the circumstance of this dispute. A concession on the part of the men's leaders of the kind proposed would in no way jeopardize their position; it would at least give public opinion, particularly in British Columbia, a different idea of the ability and the leadership of those who are supposed to be leading the men in the present dispute.
I might also remark that the location of this dispute is three thousand miles away over the mountains, in British Columbia; I have to be continually in touch with the provincial government, and it is difficult to administer a department when you have disputes, at the moment, from one end of the country to the other. For that reason I am inclined to agree with my Social Credit friends about the merits of decentralization:	one should be right on
the ground in order to face up to the difficult situation we have in British Columbia at this time. Let me, in conclusion, again suggest to the leaders there that they make this necessary concession to the defenceless farmers of that province.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I understand I am not allowed to say anything in withdrawing the motion, but after listening to the last speaker I think anybody would be in order.
I want to express thanks to you, Mr. Speaker, and to most of my colleagues, private members of all parties, for the cooperation they have given in the discussion to-day.


James Horace King: As it was mentioned by the hon. member for Fraser Valley, according to Beauchesne, second edition, section 250, it is the custom for the mover of a motion such as this to withdraw it when the debate is over.


Mr. MacKINNON:: He did that.
Motion withdrawn.

Privilege-Mr. Archibald



PRIVILEGE


Harry Grenfell Archibald: Mr. Speaker, on a question of privilege I should like to draw attention to a matter which affects me and might affect any member of parliament; that is, regarding the use of the frank. An editorial in the Montreal Daily Star of June 4 involves my name in a matter with which I had nothing to do. Perhaps I should read the editorial to show what a member is up against. It is called "The Unsoft Impeachment", and it reads as follows:
From time to time the Star, in common with every other newspaper in Canada, receives through the mails scurrilous comment on its editorials, or news items. If they are unsigned, they immediately find a resting place in that large wastepaper basket that stands beside every editor's desk. If they are signed, their contents are considered on the merits and, if worthy of publication, published.
But to-day one such piece of comment arrived which fits into neither category. True, it is scurrilous, and it is unsigned, but it arrived under such distinguished auspices as to warrant further attention being given to it.
At the top of the Star's editorial page of Friday. May 31, torn ruthlessly from the rest of the paper, there stands, written with the customary elegance of the anonymous school, this comment on an editorial dealing with the Canadian lake seamen's strike:	"This stinks!-You
live fat on the labour of unpaid workers in your own plant!" (The emphasis is that of our correspondent.)	.
Now we are not in the least hurt by this unkind reference to our avoirdupois, nor to the odoriferousness of something that may after all only have been printer's ink, but we are somewhat astonished by the distinguished auspices under which this anonymous contribution to the higher criticism reaches us.
The editorial page with its written comment came to us from the House of Commons, bearing the House of Commons postage "frank" and, on the other side of the envelope, the "frank" of a member of parliament

"H.G.A., M.P." The parliamentary guide attributes these initials to the C.C.F. member for Skeena, B.C., who, oddly enough, is described as "seaman," and who is so far off his course as to have permitted some unkind friend the illegal use of his parliamentary "frank."
I lock my stamp in my desk every evening religiously, so that how this happened I do not know. I may say that I quite agree with the comment but I would not have put it in those words.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. ALISTAIR STEWART (Winnipeg North):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Labour. In view of the fact that the dispute between the typographical union
and certain newspapers centres in Winnipeg, will the minister make another attempt to bring together representatives of the union and the Winnipeg Tribune?


Humphrey Mitchell: I wish to thank my hon. friend for having given me notice of the question. I shall be glad at any time to assist the parties to an industrial dispute in adjusting their differences, if they desire me to do so, and after consultation, of course, with the authorities in the province, which in this instance is Manitoba. But I have to receive a request and I have had no request from anyone.



CJJS. EMPLOYEES-PENSION RIGHTS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. STANLEY KNOWLES (Winnipeg North Centre):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Labour, notice of which I sent him yesterday. Has the Department of Labour received a reply from the Canadian Pacific Railway, with reference to the report of the department's industrial relations officer on the matter of the restoration of pension rights to certain employees of the C.P.R., which was referred to the company last December. Also may I ask if a copy of this report has been referred to the other interested parties, namely, the unions that requested the investigation?


Humphrey Mitchell: The reply of the company is-being studied. It is not customary to give copies of these reports to any parties to the dispute, but in view of the peculiar circumstances of this dispute, which went back to 1919, we did so in this case. As soon as we have studied the matter I shall be glad to give my hon. friend the answer.


Stanley Howard Knowles: May I ask a supplementary question? Since it is a dispute between two parties, and the government made an impartial investigation, if the report is referred to the company as one of the parties, should it not be referred to the other party as well, namely the unions?


Humphrey Mitchell: The company were not there when the evidence was taken in Winnipeg. We have to be very careful about these matters. I say that frankly, because if it becomes a practice to make these reports public we shall never get a frank report, since they will have an eye to public effect when we want a factual report.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The minister will give us a report as soon as he gets a definite reply?


Humphrey Mitchell: Certainly.
Labour Conditions



CUTTING OF PULPWOOD-PRISONER OF WAR LABOUR

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. M. BENIDICKSON (Kenora-Rainy River):: I wish to ask the Minister of Labour a question, notice of which I have not given him since the information reached me only while he has been on duty in connection with this debate. I have received advice to-day that the Department of Labour has issued an order withdrawing an additional three hundred prisoners of war now engaged in cutting pulpwood in the district of Kenora-Rainy River. Since one woods company alone in that district has been unable to obtain bushmen to fill 800 advertised jobs, and the deferment announced respecting prisoners of war in the sugar beet industry-


James Horace King: Order. Tlie hon. member must confine himself to a question.


William Moore Benidickson: Will the minister arrange with the British government for a postponement of the return of these prisoners of war in the Kenora-Rainy River district?


Humphrey Mitchell: The situation is quite clear. These are not our prisoners of war but men who were taken prisoner by the British forces. We merely acted as custodian for them in view of. the tremendous pressure in Great Britain on food and so on. The war is over and it is now a question of shipping space. If we had ships they could stay longer. But we expect to get most of our people back from Europe, soldiers, airmen and their wives and families. When that has taken place there will be no more ships at our disposal, and it is absolutely necessary to move all these people out as soon as shipping becomes available. I would rather see our men get home from Europe. That is our first obligation. If there should be a delay in that regard the prisoners can stay a little longer.



EXPORT OF TRUCK SPRINGS TO DETROIT

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Major James William Coldwell: Yesterday the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Munitions and Supply promised to give an answer to a question which I placed before him regarding the export of steel springs from Windsor to Detroit. He is not in his seat and the minister is not here. Perhaps the answer can be given on Monday. I simply wish to remind him of the promise.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It will be seen to.
At six o'clock the bouse took recess.
fMr. Mitchell.]
After Recess
The house resumed at eight o'clock.



PRIVATE BILLS


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 166, for the relief of Lillian Audrey Atkinson Jackson.-Mr. Casselman.
Bill No. 167, for the relief of Bernard Cook.-Mr. MacLean.
Bill No. 168, for the relief of Estelle R. Warhaft Slobod.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 169, for the relief of Alexander Fitz Ormonde Spooner.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill	No.	170,	for	the	relief of Eleanor
Williams.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 171, for the relief of Joseph Henri Veaudry.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 172, for the relief of Amelia Jesik Pascas.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 173, for the relief of Cyril Mackie. -Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. T74, for the relief of Carol Gordon Cass Planche.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill	No.	175,	for	the	relief of Eveline
Richmond Sykes Lacoe.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 176, for the relief of Miriam Vine-berg Perel.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 177, for the relief of Paul Krawchuk.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 178, for the relief of Henry Arthur Creates.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 179, for the relief of Stephanie Tymchuk McLean.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 180, for the relief of Annie Spivack Prosterman.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 181, for the relief of Kenneth Edwin Morrison.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 182, for the relief of Almeda Mabel Hartry Ritchie.-Mr. Boucher.
Bill No. 183, for the relief of Margo Ismena Graj'don Heubach.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 184, for the relief of Erika Gossen Tenzer.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 185, for the relief of Isabel Green-shields Biggs.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 186, for .the relief of Henri Edme Bernard.-Mr. Boucher.
Bill No. 187, for the relief of Nellie Harrison Andersen.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 188, for the relief of Marie Irene Clementine Elizabeth Ash.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 189, for the relief of Alexander Grant.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 190, for the relief of Thomas Beach.-Mr. Casselman.
Bill No. 191, for the relief of Fanny Miller Astrofsky.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 192, for the relief of Grace Ellen Rafter Munro.-Mr. Maybank.
[Stage Direction]

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
200. Departmental administration, $422,774. Hon. BROOKE CLAXTON (Minister of National Health and Welfare):	When the
house was last in committee of supply on the estimates of this department I promised to give some figures in connection with the item of $50,000 provided for the general administration of the department for publicity and information. When I referred to this matter last Friday evening I said that the total expenses up to March 31, 1946, were $24,959.68. A breakdown of these expenditures is as follows:	Addressograph equipment and embossing of addressograph plates, $5,459.46; publication of "Canada's Health and Welfare", six editions, IS,871.01. This bulletin is published in both French and English. Twenty thousand copies in French are distributed, and fifty thousand copies in English. The aim of this publication is to keep Canadians engaged or interested in public health work informed concerning developments in national and provincial health and welfare services. The next item is books and periodicals, $657.65; Cana-adian (Press) clipping service, 11,427.44; film (strip) "Science of Living", $1,399.35; Immunization film clip, $1,411.88. For a bio-logcial and medical film library, prints of one hundred films on technical subjects, $4,741.24. For a book on care of the feet, $300. This is the cost of the technical illustrations for a booklet which has not been issued as yet, but irork on which has been commenced. For Malaria pamphlet and poster, $225.20. For photos, display panels, picture layouts, $346.22. For "British Health", a picture display brought over here from the United Kingdom, $120.25. This' makes the total of $24,959.68 to which I
referred a week ago.
At that time I was also asked for a breakdown as to how the department proposed to spend the vote of $50,000 now sought under this item for publicity and information. That information is as follows:
Health and welfare bulletin	
Exhibits for rural fairs, six sets at
$250 each	; *
Photographic services, involving distribution of picture layouts, maps, etc., to newspapers and
periodicals	[DOT][DOT][DOT][DOT]
Newspaper clipping service, within
the department	
Window displays and similar exhibits	
Film circuits	 [DOT] [DOT] * *
Miscellaneous art work and photography
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Health and Welfare
That makes a total of $34,500. The unallocated balance is $15,500. Generally speaking, this vote is sought for educational and information services which are not covered in any specific votes for information and education, under either the health or welfare branches of the department. This vote is to be used for services which will generally benefit the public as a whole, related to the work of the department as a whole.
Then I was asked for details of expenditures made in connection with publicity and information to persons outside the department. Under item 213, nutrition service, expenses of $30, $65 and $50 were incurred to three individuals whom I could name if that is required. Under item 212, the civil service health division, an expense of $210 was incurred for writing and research. Those are the only expenditures coming within that question.
I should refer briefly to some of the remarks of the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard last Friday night. In his speech he referred, to a number of different items, the first of which, in the sequence in which they appear in the report, was an item of $10,000 for publicity in connection with the Indian medical service. This matter is dealt with at page 2082 of Hansard. As the hon. member said, this can be dealt with more adequately at a later time. But I would say now that his observations about this item, as all his observations on publicity, information and education, seem to have taken the word "publicity" in these estimates as used in some commercial sense. The expenditures made in the past and the votes now sought are intended for education and information in the broadest sense; and I should think everyone here would agree that the best possible thing we can do for the Indians and Eskimos of Canada is to help them to help themselves. That, very largely, is an educational and informational problem. The item of $10,000 sought for this purpose will be explained either when we reach it, or now, as preferred. The expenses planned under this item are definitely designed to put before the Indians and Eskimos of our country information respecting health, hygiene and nutrition which will enable them better to look after themselves.
The next matter raised by the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard related to, to use his words:
. . . another booklet called the "Master Menu Pattern," which, if you please, is a bright little document telling the people of Canada what food to take with them when they go on picnics in the summer and how best to make use of that food.
Supply-Health and Welfare
[Stage Direction]
u pamphlet to which he has referred is
little," and I- think it is brightly written; but it is not designed to help picnickers. The pamphlet nowhere refers to picnicking. If it has been distributed to persons who might occasionally go on picnics, no doubt they have found it useful. However, the purpose of the pamphlet, as anyone who looks at it can see, is to assist those who are engaged in planning the operation of camps for children and adults by providing them with simple instructions and suggestions concerning nutrition and the preparation of food.
In his speech the hon. member said that this-
: [DOT] [DOT] breaks a good rule of advertising, because it is offered to the Canadian people as a whole *while there is no demand for it.
Then he goes on to say:
That is the sort of advertising which one can readily approve, where there is a clear need by ?"Jl.ous, class>
.and where it is almost certain tiiait this class will be only too anxious to read and study and apply that publicity.
With that description of the purpose and aims of such a pamphlet I should be very glad to agree. This booklet satisfies all the requirements. In the first place, it was prepared and issued in response to numerous requests from camp leaders in Canada. In the second place, it was directed toward camp leaders and specific groups interested in conducting children's and other summer camps, so that the food at those camps might make its full contribution to health. In the third place, it was distributed on request only to those in a position to use it. One thousand copies were printed, and the demand was so great that the supply was speedily exhausted. Another edition in French and English was issued, with the result that thus far 2,200 copies have been distributed. We have received a large volume of mail not only commending the publication but also -asking for additional copies. These requests and comments come from boy scouts, wolf cubs, girl guides, Canadian Legion war services, the department of health and public welfare. Manitoba, the provincial board of health of British Columbia, the Saskatchewan department of public health, Manitoba pioneer camps, and private camps operated by schools and individuals as well as from the Y.M.C.A., the A.W.C.A., the department of agriculture of New Brunswick, welfare organizations, girls work boards and other agencies of various kinds interested in this work.
The preparation of the publication was not expensive. It seems to have met with general commendation, and we feel that we have done a useful job in making it available. This

has been appreciated generally, as is indicated by the large volume of correspondence we have received.
The next item to which the hon. member referred was to fillers issued by. the department. He chose one and made some fun of it. He said he did not know what a filler was. These fillers are issued frequently by the department for use in radio programmes and in newspapers. They are made available for use by originators of programmes or publishers of newspapers, as they see fit. They are prepared in the department, issued m mimeographed form and, apart from the time of preparation and the cost of the paper, there is no cost involved. We have found that this service is used generally and appreciated. A large number of these items are heard on the air and appear in the press every day. Generally, they seem to be utilized in a way which more than justifies the very slight expenditure of time and money involved in their preparation.
As to the hon. member's comments respecting style as shown in the quotation he used, might I say that every hon. member has no doubt had a good deal of experience with publicity, and all will realize that in respect of any advertisement there may be many views. Every bit of publicity or information issued will not please everyone. Some of us would like to have it written in some other way. To a great extent it is a matter of taste, and all that can be done is to secure the best possible assistance and advice, and to exercise judgment upon the results and use of the material.
Grote Stirling: Were they distributed on request, or is there a mailing list?


Mr. CLAXTON:: These are sent out to publications and radio stations on a mailing list.
I promised to give the hon. member for Cape Breton South some further information in connection with the serum ACS. As I said, this was first the subject of inquiry in 1943 or 1944, when my colleague the present Minister of Veterans Affairs had authority over the health branch of the department. He made inquiries at that time, which he referred to when the matter came up in the house last week. Shortly after that, the matter was brought to my attention, and I raised with the representatives of the U.S.S.R. in Canada the question as to whether or not they had had any news from Russia of any serum or other possible cure for cancer, arthritis and so on. There was an exchange of correspondence with the ambassador here in which I offered full cooperation with him and he offered full cooperation with me in

Supply-Health and Welfare
the exchange of scientific information. In reply to my inquiry he wrote to say that the material in question was not regarded as a cure for cancer or arthritis.
At that time a small shipment of ACS, which is the abbreviation for anti-cytoxic serum was secured by the Connaught laboratories. Unfortunately that was found to be contaminated, as serum often is, and it could not be used. Another lot was obtained from Johns Hopkins at Baltimore and that was tried out in a number of cases but without any results which would justify its continued use. However, as the hon. member may have seen, the newspapers carried a dispatch referring to this serum yesterday. We shall be glad to see that it is followed up to learn the possibilities.
I have tried to answer the questions of which I made particular note last week, but if there are any others I shall be only too glad to answer them now.


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: The minister has given a good break-down of the costs of publicity under departmental administration, and he has also given us the projected expenditures of $34,000 for the coming year. First, I should like to ask: Why ask for the $15,000? I can understand that some contingencies may arise and I should like to know whether this principle-I take it that it is a principle-of allowing for contingencies is followed in connection with all publicity items, or is it done only in connection with this one item?
Would the minister say something about the publication "Canada's Health and Welfare"? The cost last year of putting out six issues was $8,871, and the estimated expenditures for the coming year are $23,000, or about three times as much. How many more issues will be put out this coming year than were put out last year and will it cost that much more? I have volume No. 2 of November, 1945, and volume 8, of May, 1946. I can see that the contents might be of some interest to those engaged in public health work, but I do not believe we are getting our money's worth when it costs $1,700 per issue to put out this publication. From what the minister said yesterday, I understand that that is the monthly cost.
There are only seven pages. There are some personality sketches and then details of a film library. The issue before me contains four general articles with regard to the work of various provincial departments of health. I do not believe these articles are detailed enough to be of any value to a man who is professionally engaged in this work, and they would appear to be too short and too general and dealing with matters in too broad an 63260-146
outline to be of any great value to the ordinary man on the street. Does the minister not think the contents of this magazine could be incorporated in the contents of Health, which, I believe, is issued quarterly by a private organization? The $23,000 which would be saved could be applied, let us say to the neurological institute or to some other organization as was suggested by one of my hon. friends to my left. What is the circulation of this magazine and to what type of people does it go? Is it sent out on application or just a general distribution.


Brooke Claxton: The hon. member asked whether this item for contingencies was justified and whether similar provision was made in the other votes for publicity. I think the item is justified, particularly in the case of a new department. Hon. members will have in mind that this department was created only on October 13, 1944. It is extremely difficult to get a pattern of the departmental requirements in a new and possibly expanding field down to definite figures within a period of about a year. Remember that these estimates were prepared in November and at that time the department had been in existence for just twelve months. We had been paying family allowances for only four months. A number of divisions had not yet been established and a large number of posts had not yet been filled. It was impossible to foresee with any great degree of precision the exact requirements with regard to publicity. A careful examination was made, based upon our experience during that period and the experience of the predecessor department. These items were put in and it was felt necessary to provide for contingencies in this and in some of the other large items.
With regard to the bulletin "Canada's Health and Welfare", this was first published in October, 1945. There were only six issues covered by the expenditures up to March 31, 1946. As to the necessity of this publication, we took the advice of everyone who has worked in this field and it was thought desirable that the department should have such a publication. It replaced a publication which went out of existence and therefore the net expense to the public owing to the change is not very great. We do not know of any other way of giving current information about matters of health and welfare of interest and concern to all those engaged in this field from one end of the country to the other. This publication, as the hon. member has said, has seven pages in addition to the cover. It has reference to recent developments in the health and welfare field and to recent legislation; it refers to confer-

Supply-Health arid W elf are

ences; it reviews books; it lists films and. refers briefly to developments in other countries. There is no other way that we know of, of doing that. It would be quite wrong for the government of Canada to expect any private agency to do this for us. The Health League of Canada has a valuable publication, but its purpose is totally different from this, and I believe that it is sent to quite a different constituency. This bulletin is sent to the health officers of the dominion and the provinces, to teachers, to ministers of religion, to municipal health officers, to social service workers and to others who are working professionally in this field of health and welfare. It is not sent to the general public. From the experience we have had so far, we believe that the distribution of this publication is amply justified by the interest taken, that it is a useful instrument to have and that it should be continued. Its form will be changed from time to time as we gain experience, but that it serves a useful purpose we have no doubt whatsoever.


Mr. FLEMING:: In the minister's comments on the break-down of the projected expenditure of $50,000 on publicity and information he gave us his views as to the basis on which this item should be made up. He has indicated projected expenditures of $34,500 and a balance of $15,500, to which he referred as a justifiable reserve. He did not, however, answer the question of the hon. member for-Vancouver-Burrard as to whether the same principle had been followed in making up the1 other items on publicity and information-. There are some fifteen items altogether relating to publicity and information in the various branches of this department, some of them for large amounts. Has the same principle been followed in connection with them, what one might fairly describe as the principle of projecting an expenditure of two dollars and then adding another dollar as a reserve?


Brooke Claxton: As the various speakers have been speaking, I have been going through the estimates, and so far I have found no provision for a similar contingency in the other items. We can find that out definitely as the items come up one after the other. If there are other provisions for contingencies they are of a minor nature. I shall be very glad to give the information as the items come up.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Thank you. I asked the minister last Friday night, May 31, if he would supply a good deal of information. Some of it he has given to the committee this evening. The information I sought covered all the items in the estimates with relation to publicity and information, and in that con-IMr. Qaxton.]
nection I asked for the expenditures on publicity last year and for the projected expenditure this year. If it is more convenient for the minister to give that information as we reach the various items, I have no objection to that.	-


Brooke Claxton: I shall do that.


Donald Methuen Fleming: One further question. May we assume that these estimates were prepared on the assumption that there will be no change in the functions of the department as a result of the outcome of the dominion-provincial conference? In other words, were these estimates prepared on the assumption that the functions of the department would continue as in the past year, unaffected by action on any proposals that were made by the government to the conference?


Brooke Claxton: That is right.


Mr. FERGUSON:: I notice that a recent issue of this pamphlet eulogized the life work of Mrs. Arthur Murphy, an aunt of mine. I am looking forward with pleasure to the day when the Liberal party will say something nice about Julian Ferguson, even when he has passed on. May I ask if these pamphlets are printed by the king's printer, or are tenders asked from small printing establishments throughout Canada which need as much work as they can in order to carry on?


Brooke Claxton: I am afraid I am not in a position to answer in regard to this particular publication. The practice is for the department to ask the king's printer to do the printing or to have it done, and he either does it himself or has it done. I have not the information here as to whether this was done by the king's printer or whether he had it printed outside. I would think the chances of its being done outside are considerable because the king's printer has been so much overworked during the last two years-


Arthur Leroy Smith: It has on it [DOT]the "king's printer".


Brooke Claxton: That is not conclusive. That would merely indicate that it was done either by or through him. The king's printer has been so overworked that it has been impossible to get deliveries in adequate time, and a great volume of printing is done outside. Many printers in Canada are at this time one or two or three or four months in arrears in their work. That is the kind of delivery one gets on a large quantity of printing.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: May I suggest to the minister that it would be good practice for the future, where at all possible, to have this

Supply

Health and Welfare
work done by outside printing establishments instead of endeavouring to increase the facilities of the king's printer.


Thomas John Bentley: I was hoping, like the hon. member for Peace River, that we would reach a discussion of resolution No. 13, with regard to arthritis, under notices of motion on to-day's order paper; but since it seems that we are not likely to reach it and since I can find no item in the estimates where special mention is made of arthritis, may I say on this item that I have had a lot of correspondence on this subject. I have not had my correspondence on arthritis and old age pensions mixed up as the hon. member for Calgary West said his was, but I should like to refer to one letter which is typical of the correspondence I received. The writer asks that we strongly support a donation or contribution or grant- whichever is the appropriate term-of $10,000 to the Canadian rheumatic diseases association. I do not know what that association is, but presumably it has some standing or it would not be investigating matters of this kind. Frequent references have been made in this chamber to the subject of arthritis, but it does not seem to strike a chord of sympathy in the official mind, at least as strongly as some of us would hope for. I do not suppose it will be an easy matter to find a remedy for this disease. I shall not quote all the figures I have from various sources as to how many people in the dominion suffer from it, but everybody knows that the number is considerable, because everybody knows, I suppose, a good manj^ people who suffer from it, some seriously. It may be that the sufferers do not die from the disease, as do the victims of cancer and other deadly diseases; but I am convinced that it is the real cause of the death of some people, because their hearts will no longer pump the blood through their twisted bodies, which have got into that condition through years of suffering with arthritis. I am convinced, therefore, that in many instances it is a killer; and if it does not kill in the same sense as a bullet, or cancer, or tuberculosis will do, it kills all the joy of life in those people who suffer from it.
The reason I say that there does not seem to be much interest in the official mind is that I put a question on the order paper one day, asking the minister in charge whether the Department of National Health and Welfare had investigated the method of treatment for arthritis and rheumatic diseases used by Doctor I. J. K. Golden, of Chicago; if so, what were the results of such investigation? The answer to both questions 1 and 2 was a 63260-146i
flat "no". There was not even enough interest to go and find out. For that reason I think I should put on the record to-night a letter from a gentleman named J. E. Wilder. Apparently he has some belief in Doctor Golden. I know nothing about the treatment, but I shall read what Mr. Wilder says:
April 3, 1946
Honourable Brooke Claxton.
231 St. James Street West,
Montreal, Que.
Dear Mr. Claxton:
I read the article entitled "rheumatic study urged" in the Montreal Daily Star yesterday. I am very much interested in anything that can be done to relieve those suffering from rheumatism and arthritis.
In 1929 I was in Chicago trying to recuperate from a nervous breakdown and rheumatic trouble. Through another doctor I met Dr.
I.	J. K. Golden, 2238 West North avenue, who was making a specialty of the treatment of arthritis. I had him treat me and the results were so remarkable that I spent most of my time for the next month following up the cases that he treated and was the means of having many of my friends- treated by him, all with almost miraculous results. I have seen people come into his office on crutches and after one treatment walk out without crutches or any aid from other persons. The treatment is a serum which he prepares himself and which is given intravenously and intramuscularly.
I was so convinced of the merit of his treatment that I arranged with Dr. George Morgan, senior, 4294 Western avenue, Westmount. who was connected with the Homeopathic hospital, to go with me to Chicago to see the results of four or five bad cases which Dr. Golden was to treat. Dr. Morgan was in Chicago several days and took notes on each case. When he returned to Montreal, he made a report which he submitted to the staff of the Homeopathic hospital. They asked him what kind of dope Dr. Golden used on him when he was in Chicago and refused to credit the report or to make further investigation.
Since 1929 I have visited Dr. Golden several times and had treatments from him. I have never had any recurrence of the rheumatic condition since my first treatment.
I could arrange to have anyone that you might appoint see some of the cases Dr. Golden is treating and the results he obtains. I would be willing to take care of some of the expenses incurred by their trip.
At present Dr. Golden's patients are those recommended by others who have been treated by him and those referred by other doctors after they have first done everything they could for the patient without his showing any improvement.
If you are interested in looking into this matter. I will be pleased to make an appointment with you at your convenience, to diseusss it further.
Yours truly,
(signed) J. E. Wilder.
AH that may or may not be worth while, but there is one significant thing about the letter which almost everyone here will recognize, that when a man offers to dig in his own pocketbook to. help someone along he has
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some faith in the remedy, because people do not spend their own money unless they believe it will be applied to some good purpose or some purpose in which they strongly believe. When the writer said that he was willing to pay part of the expense, it seems to me evidence of something of which the minister should take cognizance. On April 15, that is twelve days after this letter was written, and when the minister must have had it in his hands, he replies to my question that they have made no investigation of Doctor Golden's work. It is sufficient evidence to convince me that not nearly as much importance is attached to this in the official mind as there should be.
I now come to another letter, written on April 4 from Montreal, from a man who apparently stands fairly high in a government department, because he was engaged for a while, I believe, with the national research council. I have a copy of the letter he wrote to the minister. I am not going to read it all, because I do not want to prolong this discussion; I want to convince the minister that the matter is important enough to have .something in the estimates or the supplementary estimates to do something about it. The writer, addresing the minister at the House of Commons in his official capacity begins:
Dear Mr. Claxton:
Having been engaged for many years in research concerning the etiology and therapy of rheumatic diseases, I was very much interested in the questions asked by Messrs. Arthur Smith (PC-Calgary West) and T. J. Bentley (CCF-Swift Current) in Commons concerning the government's measures to combat arthritis and rheumatism.
Here, later in the letter, is what to me is a singular paragraph, supporting my contention that the departmental officials are not sufficiently concerned about this:
I may say that up to now we had to depend entirely upon the generosity of two American foundations (the Commonwealth fund of New York and the United States Sugar Research Foundation) whose board of advisers considered the work worthy of financial support. In view of the rather expensive nature of this type of research and because of its great practical importance, additional facilities would, of course, be very welcome and I thought it best to call our problem to your attention.
I note from press reports that you pointed out in the House of Commons that no application for such work has been received by the national research council. I may say that during tne war, the N.R.C. has subsidized my work on war research problems and now that these have lost their immediate importance, I submitted an application for a small grant on a different subject (lactation). I did so because the latter problem is less costly and I hesitated to ask f<5r the fMr. Bentley.]
rather substantial subsidy which would be necessary in order to expedite the progress of our work on rheumatic diseases ... .
That is signed by Hans Selye, professor and director of the Institute of Experimental Medicine and Surgery, university of Montreal. I assume that he is a responsible medical man and cannot be classed as a quack.


Mr. LAURENDEAU:: May I ask the hon. member a question: has he received a report from any medical association anywhere in Canada?


Thomas John Bentley: I have only the ordinary medical journals, which I do not understand well enough to discuss here. I should like to give hon. members something more, but I cannot. I am presenting the case from a layman's point of view, from information I have obtained from people who appear to have some standing in relation to this subject. I have had advice from the minister of some journals, and have looked them up, but it requires someone with more knowledge than I have to give the house information from them.
When the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard (Mr. Merritt) was speaking the other evening when this debate was opened, and suggesting that educational work was important, the minister agreed with him. There are many ways of dealing with this matter, and I believe that one important way, which was supported by the minister only a short time ago to-night, when he was discussing the pamphlet with reference to camping, is the matter of diet. We have organizations that are extremely interested in the health of the people. The Health League of Canada prepared a calendar, a copy of which I believe is in the possession of every hon. member, telling the kind of foods that are important. These illustrations can be found in all the schoolhouses throughout the country. Certainly, in all rural schools in Saskatchewan, you will find charts of this kind giving information on the question of diet. But if it is important that the right kind of foods be consumed by our people, I submit that it is equally important that the government should educate itself to the point where it recognizes the unwisdom of removing the subsidy on milk, thus increasing the price of that commodity to people who need it in their diet if they are to grow up to be healthy, with sufficient resistance against diseases of the kinds we have been discussing.
The thing is inconsistent because the problem that we are dealing with must be approached from all angles. The 111,500,000 to be voted here will be wasted money if, after all the advice and the education given

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the people, steps are not taken to make it possible for those in the lower income brackets to put that advice into practice. People in the upper income brackets suffering from arthritis will benefit by this education and the advice given, because they can take sea voyages; they can drink lemon juice; they can have all the milk they need; but a great many people are exposed to the education while they are left without the means of providing themselves and their families with the necessary diets to make it possible for them to avoid all these diseases.
If education is to be dispensed, I suggest that perhaps the minister might do well to turn his educational guns on the government, aiming it point-blank at them, and we shall sit back and sing, "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition." It is of the utmost importance that we tackle this problem of arthritis in the right way. Some people say that there are 600,000 persons suffering from it. I do not know what the number is, but I know a good many people are the victims of this disease. I know many of them myself, and in my opinion there should be something in these estimates dealing specifically with research into all forms of rheumatic disease associated with arthritis.
I have taken this opportunity to bring this question up to-night 'because I am afraid that the resolution on the order paper standing in the name of the hon. member for Peace River may never come up for discussion during this session, and I wanted the minister to have my views on the subject.


Mr. DANIEL:: I wish to deal briefly with a matter that is of the greatest importance to a number of unfortunate people in this country. I refer to those who have lost their sight.
At the present time blind people over forty years of age secure a pension of $25 a month, 75 per cent of which is paid by the dominion and 25 per cent by the province. They can earn an additional $200 a year, without interfering with this pension.
In the entire Dominion of Canada, according to the dominion bureau of statistics, there are only 9,982 blind persons distributed across the nine provinces, there being 3,131 in Ontario and 3,152 in Quebec.
The council for the blind have requested approval of a six-point pension plan, which is as follows:
1.	That a special act for the blind and prevention of blindness is desirable and should be enacted as soon as possible.
2.	That pensions should be applied to blind persons after twenty-one years of age.
3.	That pensions should be uniform, adequate and tied to the cost of living-at least $30 a month, under dominion-provincial agreement.
4.	That permissible earnings or income limits should be raised from the present level to the minimum income tax level, that is, $660 single and $1,200 for married blind pensioners.
5.	That all blind persons possessing visual acuity of 3/60 Snellens chart or less shall be' granted a guiding and special assistance allocation of $10 a month.
6.	That for persons who have entered Canada with good vision and who, through a serious illness or non-compensatable accident, have lost their sight, resident qualifications be reduced to five years.
Hon. members will see that the above plan is asking very little for each individual and a very small amount of money as far as the dominion government expenditures are concerned, to be distributed to this unfortunate group in the manner suggested.
At the present time blind pensions are not paid to anyone under forty years of age, which might be reasonable in the case of a lot of ordinary people, but members can realize that blind people from the ages of twenty-one to forty are just as much incapacitate and unable to work as those over forty.. Consequently, I hope that the government: will consider favourably and include in their' estimates pensions for those between the ages * of twenty and forty, the total of which in the whole Dominion of Canada is only 2,328-
It will also be noted from the six-point pension plan which I have read, that the blind ask permission to earn an amount equal to the minimum income tax level. This means that a single person, instead of being allowed to earn only $500, can earn $660 including pension, without affecting his pension.
The council of the blind are also asking for $10 a month guiding fee for those with only a 3/60 Snellens test, which is a very reasonable amount. Hon. members can, I am sure, readily appreciate that the blind are asking for very little, and those hon. members who have had contact with the institute for the blind or the council of the blind, or blind people individually, know that they are probably the most cheerful group of all incapacitated persons. One only needs to have one's eyes bandaged up, as from an accident or operation, for a week to appreciate fully the handicap of being unable to see.
Blind people are spread across Canada and not in percentages in direct ratio to population. The highest percentage in Canada is in
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Mr. BLAIR:: Last Friday I made an appeal on behalf of those suffering from arthritis, and since that time this disease has been discussed a great deal in this house. It is a peculiar disease, and I should like to commend the hon. member for Berthier-Maskinonge on the com-monsense speech he made the other day. We of the medical profession are ready to try any form of treatment which will give- relief to these people. There is no doubt that new forms of treatment will be advocated from time to time, such as that suggested by the hon. member for Swift Current. Arthritis is a disease which will go ahead and cripple a person, and then suddenly for some unknown reason will cease, but it leaves the poor patient permanently crippled. The medical profession have tried various treatments, including diet. Various diets have been advocated over a long period. We have tried the injection of goldi

with considerable benefit in some cases. I have seen some patients considerably helped by bismuth, and there have been some results from serums; but that is not the answer, because the unfortunate patient is left crippled. His joints become ankylosed so that he is unable to move them, and no form of treatment will loosen them up again.
We want to get at the cause of this disease. Something is causing it, and we want to be able to stop it before it reaches the point where people are permanently crippled. No doubt there will be cures; some of them may be psychic, as far as that is concerned, but I cannot see that any person suffering from arthritis was ever cured in one office by one shot of serum. Incidentally, speaking of gold, the use of which is being widely advocated and which has its uses, at the present time I do not believe it is safe office procedure; that is, the patient should be in an institution when the gold treatment is tried. No doubt these cures will be pointed out to us from time to time; we shall be told that somebody has obtained marvellous relief from something, but it must be remembered that of itself the disease will suddenly stop. Therefore our knowledge of the disease should be increased by research.
I should like to say a few words about this pamphlet on public health and welfare which is put out by the department. I have regularly placed this pamphlet on the table in my waiting room, but I never find any person reading it, which is unfortunate. I realize that there should be value to a paper such as this, but I think the way it is written has something to do with the fact that it is not read. I believa, that better results could be obtained if the people writing this paper would bring it up to date. Let us have an issue, for instance, in July, August and September on poliomyelitis and the first signs of it, something the people can understand. Let us have a paper on the causes or the early signs of cancer, something the people can read. Let us put out a paper that can be used.	I remember the minister said this
pamphlet was sent to schoolteachers. Let us put out a paper the teachers can use in teaching hygiene to their classes. Make it something useful.
The other night the hon. member for Eglinton produced one of the fillers issued by the department, a most ridiculous thing, and in this I am criticizing the propaganda being put out. Whoever wrote that filler quoted the other evening, advising people to use the remainder of their family allowances to buy "zest", certainly had a wild imagination. Many of these children are in

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their present position from the buying of too much "zest" by their fathers. The thing is unfortunate. I approve the propaganda; I think there is a place for it, but I contend that the pamphlet, the fillers and everything else are badly written 'and not producing the results they should.


Mr. SKEY:: What is the government policy with respect to day nurseries in the large urban centres of the country? In asking this question, may I say that the day nurseries have been a great relief to those living in cramped quarters as a result of the present housing shortage. Many service men who have returned from overseas, some of them with children, live in rooms. The burden of the heavy taxation imposed at the present time has made it necessary for both parents to work, and the day nursery is the only answer for a great number of families. I may be wrong, but, as I understand it, the ministry of health and welfare has withdrawn the grants it used to give these necessary institutions.


Brooke Claxton: The Department of National Health and Welfare never made grants to day nurseries. Grants were made during the war by the Department of Labour for the sole purpose of increasing the supply of labour available to munitions factories by enabling married women to leave their children in places where they would receive adequate care during the daytime. It .was done as a war measure and was discontinued by the Department of Labour when the need for war workers ceased. This is a matter coming exclusively within the jurisdiction of the provinces, and is generally regarded as a municipal or local responsibility. Any further question the hon. member may wish to ask in this connection should be directed to the Minister of Labour, but in view of what I have said I think the situation should be thoroughly understood.
I listened to the remarks of the hon. member for Lanark, and I was glad that as a doctor he did not take issue with me in regard to some of the remarks I made last week as to the nature of arthritis. In fact his remarks were along the same line as my own. I shall be very glad indeed to see that the officers of the department consider his various suggestions in regard to publicity. I must say it was never intended that this bulletin, "Canadian Health and Welfare," should be put in the waiting rooms of doctors. I thought doctors, particularly of the ability of the hon. member for Lanark, either had more exciting literature for their patients or their patients were so anxious to see them they had no time to read material of this
kind. This is a publication intended for people working in the field of health and welfare and so far, as I say, it has been well received.
I should refer to the remarks of the hon. member for Oxford, who referred to the representations made by the Canadian Institute for the Blind. I have seen the officers of the institute and, I think, of most of the provincial organizations during the year. They have put forward the same representations, and these have been given the most serious consideration. As I think hon. members know, in the proposals put before the provinces by the dominion we proposed that the federal government contribute on a fifty-fifty basis to the cost of reducing the age to twenty-one years, and increasing the amount to $30 a month, in accordance with the proposals of the institute, and we were also prepared to discuss with the provinces arrangements under which the permissive earnings of the blind might be increased in order to increase their incentive to look after themselves. I should add that if an agreement had been arrived at it was the intention of the government to introduce at this session, or as soon as possible, a special measure relative to the blind; and in these important respects we were fully in line with the suggestions of the institute. With regard to the fifth suggestion, that there should be a special allowance of $10 a month for those whose ability to see was minimal, the matter has been given consideration, but no final decision was arrived at. The final suggestion was that persons who entered Canada with their sight, and lost it, should be qualified for blind pension if they had residence of five years. We were also prepared to consider that suggestion.
On all these points, we substantially met the suggestions of the blind as put before the parliamentary committee on social security in 1943 and 1944. In addition, during the year the government created in this department a special division of blind control, and put in charge of it a doctor who has spent a large part of his life in serving the blind, either in the Department of Veterans Affairs, or through love of his work. I refer to Doctor F. S. Burke. Since his appointment, in cooperation with other doctors he has undertaken a survey of every case of blindness in Canada, in order to find out the causes of blindness, and also to learn what percentage of blind people in Canada might be cured by treatment or operation.
We believe a good deal of blindness could be prevented, and one of the proposals we made to the provinces was that we should
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share with them on a fifty-fifty basis the costs of providing treatment where such treatment would either prevent or cure blindness. We believed that this was the most substantial advance which could be made in our programme in dealing with this problem; the best way to deal with a blind person is to cure his blindness.
Studies made thus far indicate that a considerable proportion of blindness is either avoidable or curable, and we were prepared to assist in that work as I have mentioned. That survey and research are being continued. We hope also to do some research as to the causes of blindness affecting particular communities. One hon. member referred to the heavy incidence of blindness in New Brunswick. It is quite notable that in certain parts of that province the rate of blindness is probably three times as great as that in other parts of the county.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Why?


Brooke Claxton: Nobody knows why; we would like to find out. It may be due to nutritional deficiencies. We would like to cooperate with the provinces and with other agencies in finding that out and in endeavouring to see that, whatever the cause may be, it may be corrected in the future.
I am very glad to say that the suggestions of the Canadian National Institute for the Blind are very largely those of the government, and that they were put forward in the way I have indicated.
With regard to the remarks of the hon. member for Swift Current concerning arthritis, I have- very little to add to what was said the other evening when this matter was discussed fully, as set out at page 2070 and following of Hansard. The hon. member has said, "we should do something about it". That is one of those things it is very easy to say. As the hon. member for Lanark has said, the question is:	What can we intelligently do
about it? What can we as a federal government do? That was the question I raised when the matter came up before.


Thomas John Bentley: I am not going to make a recommendation of what the minister can do, but I think something should be done. The only thing to do is, I believe, to follow up the recommendations of others, by way of making grants to organizations which are undertaking this research, or set up a federal research branch. Does the minister intend to do that?


Brooke Claxton: So far as I know, the Canadian rheumatic diseases association has 
no programme calling for any research, whatsoever. If it has that intention, such representations have not been made to me.


Thomas John Bentley: Why not do it though your department?


Brooke Claxton: I went into that matter at some length, and I think the view I put forward carried the judgment of the house that the best procedure, so far as research is concerned, was not to have the federal government set up a new institute or agency to conduct fundamental research. We do not believe that is the most efficient way of using the resources of Canada. We believe that the best way is to assist those who require assistance in research, and' who are competent to do research in those places where they are doing it or where they are able to do it.
Rheumatic diseases and arthritis are conditions which should be worked at not only by fundamental research workers but by clinical research workers, where patients are available. Those places would be the great teaching institutions and the hospitals in the larger cities. The most important work being done in this field is probably that being done by the Department of Veterans Affairs in the Toronto East General hospital, where 100 eases of arthritis are continually under examination by two officers specially trained in that field, and where they have a team of specialists working in conjunction.
As the hon. member for Lanark pointed out arthritis is a condition. We do not know what the disease is, but there are possibly thirty or more varieties of it. It is an exceedingly difficult thing to diagnose and to prescribe the best treatment.
The hon. member referred to the fact that there are probably 600,000 persons suffering from arthritis in Canada. There may be more than that, because lots of people over forty years of age have some sort of condition which might be described as arthritic.


Donald Methuen Fleming: A lot of ball-players in this house have been suffering from it since last Wednesday night.


Brooke Claxton: Yes, there has been a lot of it since then; since we suffered that trouncing on Wednesday night, we have been feeling an arthritic condition in the last two days.
This matter of arthritis is one of great concern, and if there is anything we can do effectively, I should like to see it done. But the manner we have suggested, of working through the national research council, and assisting those who want assistance to do work

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in connection with arthritis, seems to be the most sensible way of approaching the problem.


Mr. ADAMSON:: Now that the Minister of Labour is in the house, I should like to make a suggestion with regard to day nurseries.


The CHAIRMAN:: Day nurseries do not come under this national health vote.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I believe they do. They are a definite consideration of the department, and were brought into being as a war-time measure. I want to bring out the fact that in a congested district such as my own, and such as is found in many parts of Toronto, war-time conditions still exist, and the need for these day nurseries is still a pressing one.
I realize that, to a degree, war industries have ceased to exist; but the congestion is still there, and the lack of housing accommodation makes the continuance of these day nurseries a necessary part of the health and welfare of Canada. While I realize that they were brought into being as a war-time necessity, so that married women, the mothers of small children, could work in war plants, the necessity for these day nurseries still exists.
I suggest to the Minister of National-Health and Welfare that he reconsider carefully his decision to have nothing to do with the continuation of this necessary and helpful service. Possibly it is a provincial matter, but during this transitional period when there still exists a congestion of workers the need for day nurseries still definitely exists. With all due respect, let me say that it is an unfair burden upon the municipalities to expect them to carry the whole cost of these day nurseries. I suggest that the Minister of National Health and Welfare carefully reconsider his decision about abandoning support for these day nurseries.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Before leaving this general item, I should like the minister to comment upon the matter to which I drew his attention last Friday night, and I believe the hon. member for Lanark referred to it as well. I have in mind the work being done at a place of which I gained some knowledge lately, the Montreal neurological institute. Those of us who spoke last Friday night on this item referred to the research work being done there and the tremendous help being given to a great number of people who suffer from diseases other than those which have been mentioned during the course of this debate.
Reference has been made to the international reputation of this institution. It seems to me that, if for no other reason than national pride in having an international
centre in this field within Canada, we should be prompted to do everything we can to enable that institution to do its best work. It is only a matter of a few weeks ago that Doctor Wilder Penfield, the superintendent of the institution, when addressing its annual meeting, implied that some of the work of the institution would suffer, even to the extent of closing down certain sections, because of lack of funds. I know there are always various technicalities that arise as between departments and as between governments, but I submit that the importance of this work and the self-sacrificing contributions of men like Doctor Penfield, Doctor Russel, Doctor Cone, Doctor McNaughton and those associated with them in their work should prompt us to find a way to give all possible support. I am sure that, knowing that there are those whose lives would be made happier and more free from some of the ills from which they suffer by the research that could be done there, should prompt our serious consideration of this matter.


Brooke Claxton: I should have referred
to that because it was mentioned before by two hon. members. The hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre referred to the fine work being done by the Montreal neurological institute. As that happens to be in the constituency I represent, I was glad to hear the remarks of the hon. member. The reputation of the institute is, literally world wide and it has done a great work for Canada.
Doctor Wilder Penfield is one of the greatest brain surgeons, if not the greatest brain surgeon there is, and he has with him an outstanding staff. The hon. member suggests that on those grounds a grant should be made to the institution. No request that I know of has been made for a grant. I think here we must look at the position as it exists.
It is not a question of technicalities which may arise, as he said; it is a question of the realities of the Canadian constitution and the relationships which have been built up between the provinces and the dominion. There are a number of magnificent teaching institutions in Canada; there are a great number of churches which have done fine work, but that does not mean that everyone should receive a grant from the dominion government. It seems to me that here we have to look at the functions of government and consider which things can be done most appropriately and most in accordance with the lines of the constitution so that the essential needs of the Canadian people may be met.
We have made proposals to the provinces which bear on this, but at the present time I
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do not see how the dominion government could make a grant to a single educational or medical institution without creating a precedent which would expose the. dominion government to demands from every kind of institution which ordinarily would look to the provinces for support. Those who want to change the existing relationships between the dominion and. the provinces can discuss projects, change them, but that cannot be done on a piecemeal basis. You must have regard for the constitutional relationships that exist or you will bring about a chaotic condition. I do not think anyone could express greater admiration than I for the work of the institute, but so long as we have our existing constitutional relationships I do not think it is possible to expect the federal government to make a grant for a single purpose such as this.


Stanley Howard Knowles: For my own part I would rather that we did this directly, but I should like to make a suggestion along the lines of the present practice. Last Friday the minister indicated that there was some sort of interdepartmental or joint committee on research under the national research council. I believe there is liaison between the minister's department and that committee through the person of a member of the committee. Is that so?


Brooke Claxton: That was the situation. There is a medical division of the national research council which considers applications for grants in aid of research.


Stanley Howard Knowles: In the estimates of the Department of Reconstruction and Supply there is an item covering grants in aid of research. It is a mere bagatelle, but it seems to me that the minister who is interested in matters of health should see that his representative on that committee urge that some of the money listed for grants in aid of research should be granted to this institute. I hope the minister will see that that suggestion receives consideration.


Brooke Claxton: I shall be glad to see that it gets consideration.


Agar Rodney Adamson: In connection with the neurological institute in Montreal, has there been any curtailment of its work?


Brooke Claxton: I would think it is quite the contrary.


Agar Rodney Adamson: There has been a curtailment of research owing to lack of funds in some psychiatric hospitals throughout Canada.


Edmund Davie Fulton: In connection, with the matter of grants in aid to various institutions and the point just raised by the minister, I should like to bring up the general question of grants in aid of hospitals across the country. Apparently many hospitals, because of lack of building materials or lack of funds, have been forced to curtail construction and expansion work and now find themselves in urgent need of accommodation. This question was discussed by the minister and myself in connection with a specific hospital. I do not wish to go into local details on this general item, but I have had a letter stating that hospitals generally are finding it embarrassing because of the temporary suspension of the dominion-provincial conference and the fact that they are unable to get grants from the dominion government. There is in this letter one passage which I think is quite interesting. This is a letter from the Canadian hospital council, Toronto, which I understand represents hospitals across the dominion, addressed to the British Columbia hospitals' association. It reads as follows:
The collapse of the recent federal-provincial conference is not making it any easier for hospitals to proceed with their construction programmes. Federal loans at low interest were contingent upon a favourable solution to the taxing question and, therefore, cannot proceed. Meanwhile, in most of the provinces provincial assistance is not materializing, the provinces also waiting for a solution to this impasse. The situation is becoming steadily more serious and we are fast approaching what could well be termed a national emergency. A few days ago the gravity of this situation which would quickly result in a break-down of our hospital facilities if a major epidemic developed as in 1918-1919, was discussed with the deputy minister of national health and welfare and we have since forwarded to him for the consideration of his minister and we hope of the cabinet a letter urging that in the interests of the citizens of Canada this matter be not left to any legal interpretations of who has the responsibility for health, or the political juggling of federal-provincial taxing rights, but that the federal government proceed at once to make funds available for the very essential expansion of hospitals. Under such circumstances, low interest loans might need to be repaid rather than amortized under succeeding annual grants to provinces as proposed last year but unless funds are forthcoming from some source hospital expansion will not proceed with sufficient rapidity to cope with the situation.
It is appreciated that the matter is one which, as the letter points out, has been made more difficult by the failure to reach immediate agreement at the conference. But I would ask the minister whether consideration has been given to the representations made by the Canadian hospital council, and, if so, whether there is any likelihood of action being taken by his department along the lines recommended in that letter?

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Brooke Claxton: The question raised by the hon. member for Kamloops has been raised by a number of other hon. members through whom hospitals made application for assistance from the federal government. On that matter the constitutional position is very clear. Paragraph 7 of section 92 of the British North America Act places squarely within the jurisdiction of the provinces responsibility for hospitalization, and the legal position has been in accordance with the position during the seventy-seven years that we have had confederation. The only federal assistance that I know of that has been given to hospitals has been in connection with the discharge of federal responsibility. The federal government has exercised responsibility for hospitalization of members of the armed forces, veterans, sick mariners, immigrants, and Indians, and in respect of quarantine and leprosy. I think I am right in saying that a grant has never been made to a hospital by the federal government except in the cases I have indicated or others in which there is a federal aspect. In connection with the proposed introduction of health insurance on a nation-wide basis, it was recognized that there would have to be a wide extension of hospital facilities. The dominion proposals to the conference, at page 36 of the green book, provide for financial assistance in the construction of hospitals. That assistance was to be in the form of loans made through the provinces at or near cost.
It is greatly to be regretted that there has not been agreement. All I can say is that the question is being considered and that any further proposals the federal government may make in this as in other matters growing out of the conference will be made by the Minister of Finance at the time of introducing his budget, or at some time consequent on its introduction.
With regard to the hospital at Kamloops, the hon. member has made representations with regard to the matter, and it has been twice before an interdepartmental committee to see if the federal interest in the position was sufficient to justify a grant. I must say that we found the position to be very much like that of hundreds of other hospitals. It is used occasionally by veterans or members of the armed forces or Indians, but there is no special federal interest in that hospital which would justify its being treated differently from other hospitals across Canada.


Edmund Davie Fulton: That is why I was not trying to discuss the local issue here to-night, although I was hoping that in the minister's remarks I might find a ray of hope for our hospital. The minister said that it might be made
the subject of an announcement at the time of the budget. Does that mean that he is not in a position to say whether it is intended to make separate representations or to reach an agreement of this sort with the provinces outside the general conference? Can he say whether special consultations could be held so that recommendations of the nature of those contained in the letter I have read could be worked out?


Brooke Claxton: I can assure the hon. member that the representations will be given the most serious consideration, but I am not in a position to go farther than that at the present time.


William Ross Macdonald: May I draw to the attention of the committee that there has been a considerable discussion on this item, much of which might more properly have come on various other items as we reached them. It occurred to me that the committee might be prepared to allow item 200 to pass now and proceed with the other items.


John Horne Blackmore: Before the general item carries, there is one matter I wanted to ask the minister about because I should like to have some information which will aid me in a discussion later. The matter I have in mind is the national film board, item 244 and following, for which there are appropriations amounting to over SI,000,000. In order to be able to discuss these items with some degree of understanding, I should like to have a number of questions answered at this stage so that I can be contemplating them before we get to the items. Would the minister prepare a statement, since he will not be able to answer these questions offhand, telling us how many films are now in the possession or under the direction of the national film board? Does the film board lease, lend or otherwise let out films to be used for educational purposes? If so, how many are so let out? To what institutions or agencies are they let out? Under what conditions are films let out? Has the board any lecturers using films of the national film board? How many films have to do with biological subjects, and how many have to do with geological or other scientific subjects? How many have to do with the subject of-evolution? How many of these would tend to establish in the minds of the students the conviction that evolution is the true explanation of the origin and development of life on the earth? I am going to send these questions over to the minister so that he can consider them, and I should like him to give the answers as soon as he can because I am deeply interested in the subject of evolution and I want to discuss it when we come to the question
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of venereal disease. I think that for us to be teaching through films all over the country and teaching in our textbooks as a fact that men are descended from apes, and then expecting them to act like men descended from God, is an absurdity. So that I should really like to know a good deal about the matter of these films.


Donald Methuen Fleming: My short question relates to part of this first item we are on. I think it is clear from what the minister said earlier, and I am just asking his confirmation of it, that the writing and editorial work on the magazine "Health and Welfare" and on these fillers is all done by members of - the staff and that no professional assistance is retained from outside the department. Can I have the minister's confirmation of that understanding?


Brooke Claxton: Yes; that is correct with regard to the matters the hon. member has mentioned. If we were preparing a film, or an advertisement for the newspapers, there would be outside professional assistance.


Donald Methuen Fleming: By advertising advisers? Mr. CLAXTON: That is right.


Mr. HANSELL:: I am not discussing the matter, but would the minister tell us under what item or department the UNRRA discussion will come?


Brooke Claxton: The Department of
External Affairs.


John Horne Blackmore: If I might impose upon the committee a minute or two more, I should like to ask the minister some further questions on films, and he can look the answers up at the time he is preparing his answers to my former questions about the films. Are any of the national films based upon the Bible and, if so, how many: do any of them give the recent findings of archaeologists like Sir Charles Marston, Sir Flinders Petrie, and others whose discoveries tend to establish the authenticity of the Bible historically and otherwise? If so, how many of such films are now available for distribution? What is the general nature and teaching of each? My reason for asking these questions is this: if it should be found that this domniion is paying over a million dollars for a service which is contributing to the destruction of the faith of the youth and is doing nothing to establish the faith of the youth throughout this country, that matter ought to be probed into and, I think, adequate measures taken.


Brooke Claxton: I can assure the hon. member that it is not doing that, but I would be glad to give such answers to his questions as I can when the items come up.
	'|T'|


John Horne Blackmore: I think it would be only fair to the minister to let him know that that is the purpose behind the whole thing. My opinion is that our age is rapidly becoming a godless age. Our people were never intended to be a godless people. The sooner we return to a belief in God, a simple sincere belief in God, the sooner we shall lay a foundation for the great and powerful nation that we were designed to become.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health branch-[DOT]
. 201. National health branch administration, including contribution of $1,134 to the international office of public health, $212,986.
Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: In this item there is a vote of $100,000 for publicity, which is up $80,000 over last year. I should like the minister, if he would, to give a break-down of the expenditure last year and of the projected expenditure of this $100,000.


Brooke Claxton: Yes. The expenditure for last year was $17,179.19. I can give the hon. member the break-down of that sum: Occupational therapy films, $4,999.14; rural health films, $9,500; health displays, $219.48; health reference book, $180.99; a book on the control of communicable diseases, $2,650.37; a book, "Healthful Living", $532.74; and advertisements, $110; making a total of the amount I mentioned. The proposed expenditure of S100.000 will be as follows: on a French version of eight medical and public health films to be recorded at the request of the ministry of health of Quebec, $10,000. We have the English films and we have to make French-speaking sound tracks. Two film libraries, about one hundred prints, $5,000; 12 strip films to assits in classroom and health education work in the provinces, to be distributed through provincial departments of health and education, $20,000; newsreels, to report medical research, provincial achievements in the field of public health and to provide newsclips on such subjects as immunization, $15,000; standardized health publications, to eliminate overlapping and to fill in gaps occasioned by the present system of the federal and provincial departments of health distributing publications without reference to each other, $12,000; films to be produced at request of the provincial departments of health in accordance with interest indicated by the dominion council of health, $38,000; a total of $100,000.


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: Most of those new items refer to films. Would the minister say whether they are all produced by the national film board, and whether this sum therefore

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goes into the coffers of the national film board and back into the consolidated revenue fund, or does it go out of the government's hands altogether?


Brooke Claxton: A large part of the expenditure on films is made to the national film board for production of films. Part of it is for the purchase of prints and films produced in other countries.


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: The other question I have is: in view of the large film programme, would the minister say what sort of general supervisory control there is over this kind of expenditure to make sure that the money is being expended to attain certain definite ends? For instance, are these twelve strip films part of a plan to get over some particular points with regard to public health, or are they of general interest? What is the general policy of the minister with regard to that kind of thing?


Brooke Claxton: Each film is designed to do a specific job, and it is worked out only after the most careful consultation with authorities working in a special field, and also, if it is a film designed for educational purposes, with educational authorities. The amount of work which goes into one of these films, in the preparation of the text and in the screening and cutting, is great, and it takes a considerable time to produce it. Almost all the items I mentioned under this head are to meet needs which have been expressed by the provinces and by public health authorities, and a great part of the distribution and exhibition would be done through provincial agencies and in cooperation with them.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I notice that the minister said that certain of these films were being produced at the request of provincial authorities, sometimes for use in the schools, sometimes apparently for use in other places. Is it the policy of the department to make films on request of provincial authorities? Are these needs pointed out by the provinces in relation to a national health problem which he refers to in these various films? I take it that there is nothing local in the appeal of the films and the task they are intended to perform.


Brooke Claxton: That is right. I have never heard of a single film or advertisement or publication which was designed to meet a local need. Usually the health officers of the provinces or municipalities express a necessity, inquiring whether we have a film on such and such a topic. If the request indicates a fairly widespread desire and seems to cover something that falls within the scope
of the department's activities, the matter is likely raised at the next meeting of the dominion council of health, which consists of the deputy ministers of the dominion and the nine provinces and four lay members. The subject is discussed there. If it is felt that it is something that is desirable and suitable for projection in that way we next discuss it in the department, and if it falls into the general pattern of our activities for the year we proceed with it.


Donald Methuen Fleming: As regards the circulation of films once produced, is that left to the national film board, or is it administered entirely by the department itself.


Brooke Claxton: It is done by both means and also through film societies, provincial, educational and other authorities, and through national and provincial medical associations. Whatever means of distribution is appropriate for' the pamphlet or film is used to meet the needs of the case.


Mr. COLD  WELL@: Are we discussing the national film board? If so, some of us would like to say a word on that subject.


Brooke Claxton: No.


Donald Methuen Fleming: 
Stanley Howard Knowles: Is there any curtailment of service in the department owing to the blanks to which the hon. member has referred?


Brooke Claxton: There is an acting director and a publicity assistant. Was that the second item to which the hon. gentleman referred?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The second was special assistant to the deputy minister of health; the third was publicity assistant, and the fourth, senior messenger.


Brooke Claxton: It depends on the development of the work of the department. Either these positions are not needed, or they fall more properly under specific divisions of the department.


Mr. HAZEN:: Did the minister refer to the acting director of health services?


Brooke Claxton: Yes.
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Douglas King Hazen: Where does the item for his salary appear?


Brooke Claxton: The salary of the director of health 'services is fixed on a temporary basis of S6.900 and that item is included in the $52,860. It is proposed to have three assistant directors of health services at $6,600 totalling $19,800; one chemist, $2,820; three principal clerks at $1,920. or $5,760; one secretary to executive, $1,890; one clerk, grade four, $1,620; two clerks grade three, $1,590 and $1,380, or $2,970; one clerk grade two, $1,110; and nine other employees, making a total of twenty-two temporaries, totalling $52,860.	'	,


Donald Methuen Fleming: Are the three assistant directors of health services to be permanent officials?


Brooke Claxton: Yes.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Why are they shown as temporaries?


Brooke Claxton: Because the positions
have not yet been made permanent.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Are they at present on the staff awaiting the time when they will be made permanent?


Brooke Claxton: They have not yet been appointed.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Is there to be an extended programme of work? This item contemplates an extension of staff that is likely to be permanent or semi-permanent. Is there such an extension of work in branch administration as to justify this increase in expenditure?


Brooke Claxton: This is part of an establishment which was worked out after the creation of the department in October, 1944, and modified from time to time. That organization, which was worked out in the first instance by the civil service commission and the treasury board, has been modified periodically and is now in a form which, we hope, will take care of the reasonable requirements of the department for as long as one can see ahead. It involves a certain amount of devolution. Where formerly there was a director of health services and other officers in the department, we expect now that there will be a director of health services who will report to the deputy minister, and under him three assistant directors of health services, one of whom will deal with the statutory duties of the department, another with laboratory work, having regard particularly to food, drugs and so on, and the third largely with promotional activities. They are, we believe, necessary in order to discharge the work of the department.


Douglas King Hazen: Who was the director of health services last year?


Brooke Claxton: Doctor J. J. Heagerty was director of health services until his retirement just before his death. Since this is mentioned for the first time in the house, I should like to pay tribute to one who served for over thirty years in the government service and whose work was known throughout Canada as that of a great public servant, a distinguished doctor, and a man who did everything possible to promote the health and welfare of the people of Canada. It was with the greatest regret that we saw him retire, and with still greater regret we learned of his death during the current year.


Douglas King Hazen: May I ask who is acting as director of health services now?


Brooke Claxton: Doctor Cameron.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Included in this item is an amount of $1,134 as Canada's contribution to the international office of public health, and in that- connection I should like to ask one or two questions. Is that the only contribution Canada makes to the field of international health? In asking the next question I may be guilty of touching off a forty-minute speech by the minister, but still it is an important matter. It is this: how are things coming along in the field of international health? I have in mind the proposal made at meetings of the united nations in London that as soon as possible there should be an international conference with a view to developing an international organization to meet the health needs of the present day. The minister is running back and forth, I believe, between his responsibilities here and meetings in connection with this matter, and I wonder if he could give us a statement as to how these matters stand at the present time.


Brooke Claxton: The invitation of the hon. member to start on a forty-minute speech on this subject is attractive, but I shall try not to work on such a hair-trigger that I may be touched so easily. This is the only vote in this department which includes anything for international health, but my impression is that the budget of the old league of nations would include an amount which would go to the old health section of the league, which carried on useful work from the time the league was started.
With regard to the proposed world health organization, this is one of the specialized agencies of the economic and social council of the united nations. The council has been meeting since May 24 at New York at Hunter college in the Bronx. I have been attending

Supply-Health and Welfare
those meetings as Canadian delegate, when not in attendance at the house. One of the specialized agencies of the economic and social council, as I say, is the proposed international health organization. A technical preparatory committee met' at Paris from March 18 to April 5, 1946. That committee had on it fifteen technical experts, one of whom was Doctor G. B. Chisholm, deputy minister of national health of Canada. He was honoured by appointment as rapporteur of the committee and presented the report to the economic council on the work that was done. That report was made in New York on May 28, and was well received. The matter is now receiving consideration by the economic and social council, and its observations on the report of the technical preparatory commission will be put before the international health conference which has been called to meet at New York on June 19. Canada will be represented there, and it is expected that the members of the united nations who answer the summons to that meeting will begin to work out the constitution of an international health organization, using as their basis the draft prepared at Paris by the technical preparatory commission.
The scope of the proposed international organization is extensive. It would deal with a large number of matters, principally through international cooperation. Hon. members might be interested if I quoted the first few lines of the preamble of the draft, which states:
The states parties to this world convention recognize the following truths as basic to harmonious relationships between all peoples of the world.	.
Health is a state of physical fitness and of mental and social well-being; not only the absence of infirmity and disease.
The right to health is one of the fundamental rights to which every human being is entitled, without distinction of race, religion, political belief, economic or social condition.
I hope that gives the hon. member some of the information he wanted.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Who will be Canada's representative at that meeting? Will it be the minister himself?


Brooke Claxton: I expect so, together with the deputy minister of national health. I am not in a position to announce the others, but we hope to secure the assistance of some representatives of the medical profession and professional organizations.
Item agreed to
National health branch-
202. Food and drugs, $365,032.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I should like to ask a question dealing with this item and relating
to the next two items as well. Is the minister satisfied that under existing legislation and regulations, and their administration, the people of this country are receiving adequate protection with reference to food and drugs, opium and narcotic drugs, and proprietary or patent medicines?


Brooke Claxton: With regard, first, to the question of the administration of the Food and Drugs act, I think I can give that assurance to the hon. member. In discussing this with representatives of other nations, I find they are generally appreciative of the legislation we have in Canada and the way it is enforced. In the department we try to secure enforcement through cooperation; first, with representatives of the various trade associations and, second, with the people in business. The number of prosecutions is not very great, but this does not mean that the extent of sampling or analysis is not sufficient to maintain effective control over the quality of the food that is distributed in Canada. I have been greatly impressed with this branch, and we have every reason to be pleased with the way the officers do their work. It commands the general respect of the trade, as well as of technical experts.
With regard to drugs or medicines, there is a general impression that the federal government exercises control over medicines in order to ensure effective labelling of poisonous drugs or medicines. That is not so. The labelling provisions of the federal government require publicity and information as to the contents rather than act as a warning. , The warnings are applied under provincial legislation. All the provinces have acts which require warnings as to certain types of medicines.
With regard to the administration of the Opium and Narcotic Drug Act, I can say with confidence that Canada's administration has been recognized throughout the world as among the best to be found anywhere. That is largely due to the part played by Colonel C. H. L. Sharman, C.M.G.,CJ3.E., who recently retired, and who is to act on the international narcotics commission.
The number of addicts, in so far as they can be estimated, has been reduced materially during the war. The shortage of drugs and the need of using them for purposes in association with the war, led to more effective control. For one thing, regulations have been changed to provide that all narcotic drugs can be sold only on prescription, except for preparations containing small quantities of codeine, and that only in conjunction with other medicines. Control has been closely
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exercised, and we believe that the situation is consequently better than it has ever been before.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Is the minister satisfied that the present dominion legislation with reference to the labelling of drugs and food compounds is adequate to give protection to all the people?


Brooke Claxton: I think it is. The objections we receive are, if anything, that they are too severe. I must add, however, that we are getting more and more cooperation from people in business. Some years ago producers and distributors resented any kind of regulations. But now they realize it is in the interest of honest manufacturers and distributors to see that there are fair regulations and that they are effectively enforced. I think most of them are satisfied that that is so.


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: This vote is increased by almost. 80 per cent over last year. That must represent a considerable extension in the department, or some new policy. If so, I should like to know what it is.


Brooke Claxton: I am glad the hon.
member has mentioned that, because it is caused by a considerable transfer of functions from the laboratory of hygiene to the food and . drugs laboratory. It is an adjustment which has been found desirable. It will be found that in the vote for the laboratory of hygiene there has been a decrease amounting to some $48,320, and that sum represents a substantial part of the increase in this vote.
The other increases to a considerable extent consist of additional equipment which was not available during the war and which is necessary to supplement or replace equipment which is either worn out or out of date. If lion, members will look at votes in preceding years for this branch they will see that for several years no provision has been made for improvement of or increase in equipment. As a consequence of the war, substantial improvements have been made in equipment, and now that material is becoming available, an amount of $19,000 of this vote is set aside for this purpose.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health branch-
205.	Quarantine and leprosy, $226,710.
Grote Stirling: What is the situation
with regard to leprosy on the two coasts?


Brooke Claxton: I am glad to say that,
viewed as a whole, the condition is the same as last year. We have two leprosy hospitals, one of which is at Bentinck, British Columbia.

At that hospital there was one admission and no discharge during the year. One patient remained from last year, and one was admitted during the year, so that the total number in the hospital stands at two, one of whom is a Chinese male and the other a Japanese male. Both cases are bacteriologically negative.
At the other hospital, at Tracadie, New Brunswick, we have eight patients remaining from last year, and one was discharged during the year, which leaves seven remaining in the hospital. So that the net position in Canada is exactly the same.


Douglas King Hazen: There are nine patients
altogether.


Brooke Claxton: Yes.


Douglas King Hazen: And it costs $197,000 to
look after those nine patients.


Brooke Claxton: The hospital at Bentinck island costs $4,376 and that at Tracadie, $10,560, making a total of just under $15,000 for the two of them. The remainder is for quarantine.


William Gourlay Blair: Is the discharged patient
supposed to be cured? While the number of patients is the same, there is a considerable additional amount. What is the reason?


Brooke Claxton: Included in the item
for leprosy is the amount for quarantine. I have just pointed out that the total amount expended in connection with leprosy is just under $15,000, and that there has been no change in that for two years.
Answering the other question, I am informed that the patient who was discharged is cured.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health branch-
206.	Laboratory of hygiene, $197,166.
Donald Methuen Fleming: My first question arises out of a brief statement in the report of the department for the year ended March 31, 1945, where, under the heading, "Penicillin", at page 39 we find this:
This branch of the laboratory cooperated with the bacteriological branch in a study of the stability of penicillin.
What is the extent of the help given to research by this department or in connection with the medical branch of the national research council with reference to penicillin? As hon. members are aware, research and manufacture are being carried on in different parts of the country. Perhaps the greater part of that manufacturing is being done in Toronto in the old Knox college building. What is the extent of research carried on under dominion auspices?

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Brooke Claxton: When penicillin was
developed for use during the war it became at once apparent that there would be a great need of it. The federal government, through the Department of Munitions and Supply, acting as agent for other departments of government, bought for the Connaught laboratories the Knox college building in Toronto, equipped it, and paid the costs of operation of that plan throughout the war. At the Connaught laboratories new types of preparation were worked out and new techniques were developed. I believe it was among the leading establishments in the world.
The federal government also assisted the Ayerst, McKenna and Harrison, Limited, laboratory at Montreal in the construction of a plant for the production of penicillin at that point.
The third source of production in Canada was by commercial interests without government assistance in the Merck laboratories. The processes were all so new that they all did valuable experimental work in connection with the technical production, but the work done at the Connaught laboratories was outstanding and gave leadership, not only in Canada but in other countries.
The part played by the laboratory of hygiene of the Department of National Health and Welfare was to work out standards by which the efficacy of penicillin might be assayed. One of the functions of the department is to work out standards whereby drugs may be tested so that a physician will know that if he gives a dose of a drug, the drug will be of a standard strength to do the job that a drug of that quantity should do. The department carried out extensive investigations on the assay of penicillin, and the laboratory participated in collaborative studies with those arranged through the health section of the league of nations so that an international standard might be worked out. A Canadian standard has been prepared which is distributed to manufacturers, and their product is tested periodically by the department to ensure its efficiency, just the same way as other drugs are. A second low potency standard has been prepared for distribution to hospitals and clinical laboratories for use in controlling penicillin clarity.


Donald Methuen Fleming: What expenditures have been made to date by the dominion government in connection with penicillin, as regards both research and manufacture? What proportion of this estimate relates to the production of penicillin or to further research on penicillin?


Brooke Claxton: It would be quite impossible to segregate what is expended on penicillin, because that is only part of the work carried on by the laboratory. During the year, tens of thousands of assays are made and separate costs are not kept. There is no reason that we can see why they should be. As to the amount spent by the federal government on the production of penicillin, that would more properly come under the estimates of the Department of Reconstruction and Supply in the war appropriations. The Department of National Health and Welfare did not make any expenditure on production.


Donald Methuen Fleming: That would be the amount spent to acquire buildings?


Brooke Claxton: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health branch-
207.	Immigration medical inspection, $84,905.
Donald Methuen Fleming: To what extent has the prospect of increased immigration entered into this item?


Brooke Claxton: We are having increased immigration this year in the form of wives and dependents of members of the armed forces, and we have had to send several extra officers overseas to do the work of the department in that connection.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health branch
[Stage Direction]
208.	Child and maternal hygiene, $108,709.
Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: Could the minister explain the publicity item?


Brooke Claxton: The amount sought last year was $67,000 and the amount expended was $31,449.15. Of that amount, there was expended on "Canadian Mother and Child," the publication to which hon. members referred, a total of $27,193.16. That publication is issued at the rate of about 8,000 copies a month in both languages through provincial government and local authorities. We intend to produce a film entitled "Mother and Child", and there was spent on research and preparation of the strip a total of $1,315.65. There was a smaller expenditure of $302.76 on a film script. Reprinting of booklets on children, $2,637,58. That totals the amount mentioned of $31,449.15.
The amount sought this year is $68,400 to provide for a continuation of exactly the same programme, with an additional output of "Canadian Mother and Child" and the completion of the film and film script to which I have referred. In additim, there will be a
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small poster on the importance of immunization and the distribution of some technical advice to physicians working in the child and maternal hygiene field, if, after consultation, that is considered desirable.


William Gourlay Blair: Will the minister explain the increase of $7,000 in travelling expenses?


Brooke Claxton: That is to cover the
travelling expenses of the members of the scientific advisory committees who advise the department in this field. They are distinguished doctors who serve without recompense, and we pay their travelling expenses for the one or two meetings that may be held in Ottawa each year.	.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Under this item there is a question I should like to ask which would apply to one or two other items. Perhaps the one answer will suffice. I have in mind child and maternal hygiene, public health engineering, industrial hygiene and possibly some other items. Has there been an extension of the services rendered, by the department in this connection? I notice that there is an increase in the amount asked for. That does not worry me unduly. We should watch closely all expenditures, but in this field of health what some of us are mainly interested in the extension of services to the Canadian people. In these three fields has there been any increase in the services rendered and, if so, what has been the nature of that increase?


John Ritchie MacNicol: May I suggest that we take the items one at a time. I have been waiting here all evening to speak on one item. If you are going to take three items together I intend to ask my question on one of them.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The same answer may
cover the three items. If it does not, I can ask it again.


Brooke Claxton: There are no changes
contemplated in the work carried on under this item. As I explained, provision is being made for an extension of work in much the same way as it has been carried on, and for more complete cooperation with the provinces. It is to provide for two meetings of the advisory council as well as for a wider distribution of the book "Canadian Mother and Child".


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health branch-
209.	Public health engineering, $138,443.
Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: I notice that this item is almost three times what it was last year, and I am particularly interested in the amount of $30,000 being provided for publicity and information. I have looked up the report of
tMr. Claxton.]
the department for 1944-45 and I cannot find that any expenditures have been made before on publicity. I find that the duties of the department in that year were in connection with the supervision of public transport facilities, of federal public buildings; sanitary survey of shell-fish areas and the administration of the Public Works Health Act. Most of these duties were in reference to water supply for camps arising out of war purposes. Would the minister give a full explanation why this item is so much increased?


Brooke Claxton: The reason for the increase is that part of the functions of the division of public health engineering covered by this item have been met during the last four years out of the war appropriation. That refers particularly, for example, to an increase of $22,000 in transportation and travelling expenses, which up to now were covered by the war appropriation. That has been transferred to the ordinary peace-time estimates. The work includes supervision with regard to certain continuing government activities at places like Deep River, Chalk River, Defence Industry Limited, Eldorado Mining and Refining Company, Pickering and so on. We have also more work this year in connection with the international joint commission with respect to the pollution of boundary waters. The engineers of the two countries are going into that question, particularly regarding the pollution of the great lakes. Then there is sanitation; cooperation with the Department of Veterans Affairs and its wide expansion of hospitals and other facilities, including health and occupational centres. The work of the division will also be increased by our assuming responsibility for the health of Indians and Eskimos, which was transferred on November 1, 1945, to this department. These changes are the reason for the increase.
With regard to the item of $30,000 for publicity and information, the dominion council of health suggested that two films be prepared, one on pure milk and the other on safe water, the first at a cost of $14,000 and the second at $15,000. Then $500 is provided for reprints of booklets on sanitation and $500 for printing "Noise and Vibration Control", a booklet that aims at the elimination of noise in industry and commerce.


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: I think there must be some carryover between industrial hygiene and this item, because I understood that the prevention of noise was one of the chief functions of the industrial hygiene branch. I do not quite understand why a film on pure milk should come under public health engineering.

Supply-Health and Welfare
Mr. WINTERS': There is a great lack of uniformity in Canada in the field of industrial hygiene. Is the federal government co-ordinating precautions taken, for instance, against monoxide gas in industrial plants? It seems to me that industrial hygiene is a field for closer coordination with the provinces.


Brooke Claxton: We shall come to that item in a moment. In answer to the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard, who asked why a film on pure milk should come under this division, it must come under either this or some other division in the department, and this seems to be as appropriate as any other. The officers of the division of public health engineering cooperate closely with the officers in the provincial departments, and it is by reason of that association that this particular function is inserted here. The federal government does not have the enforcement of the law regarding pure milk, but we do cooperate with the provinces at their request in providing information and material that would be beyond the scope of any province to provide.


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: Where is it contemplated to show that film?


Brooke Claxton: It would be shown as a short at commercial theatres and be shown in the sixteen millimeter size on some of the rural film circuits, at farmers' meetings, meetings of women's institutes, meetings of municipal associations, and of voluntary organizations of all kinds. The commercial distribution of films has an estimated potential audience of one and a quarter million a week, and the. distribution of films on a noncommercial basis is' estimated to have a potential total of two hundred thousand.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.	.
National health branch-
210.	Treatment of sick mariners, $332,065.
Donald Methuen Fleming: I understand that the fees paid by vessels for this service approximate $200,000 a year, while the item is for $330,000. The scale of fees paid by the vessels was established a long time ago. They existed under part V of the Canada Shipping Act, which goes back to confederation da3rs. Has any thought been given to an upward adjustment of the scale of fees so that they would be equal to the cost of the service provided to mariners on ships entering Canadian ports?


Brooke Claxton: The amount collected from the ship owners is based on the tonnage of the vessel. It varies from year to year with the number of ships arriving and with the size of the crews. The expenditures also
vary with the incidence of sickness. Over the years I think I can say that the revenue compares favourably with the expenditures.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The Navy League of Canada has for years been performing an efficient and useful service in providing medical assistance for sailors, so many of whom are indigents. I am in favour of this vote. I was under the impression that part of this money was used to take care of the medical necessities of indigent sailors. Many of them have no money to pay for medical services. If they all have to pay for services, disease will increase instead of diminish.


Douglas King Hazen: Is there any place where the amounts which are paid by the different shipping companies are shown?


Brooke Claxton: The public accounts.


Douglas King Hazen: As to the item of professional and special services, what would come under the heading of "special services"?


Brooke Claxton: Sick mariners are treated and hospitalized at departmental hospitals where there are departmental hospitals adequate to take care of them, but that is only the case in a very limited number of localities. To a large degree sick mariners requiring hospitalization are hospitalized in general hospitals, to which the department pays a per diem rate. Similarly with regard to professional services, where the department has a doctor of its own, as it has in Halifax, Saint John, Sydney, Quebec, Montreal, Vancouver, and Victoria, he does the work. But where there is too much work to be done by the departmental doctor, or where there is no departmental doctor, an outside doctor is hired on a fee basis and he performs the work.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health branch-
211.	Industrial hygiene, $103,151.
Brooke Claxton: This is where I should reply to the question asked by the hon. member for Queens-Lunenburg. This division has cooperated closely with the provinces and with war industry during the war to secure the enforcement of the conditions in the munitions contracts regarding working conditions. It has succeeded in ensuring a greater degree of standardization of practice than before. Primarily this matter does fall, of course, within the jurisdiction of the provinces, and the department through this division has worked with the provinces and also with those holding contracts with the federal government. Here again there is a continuance of expenditure from the war appropriation to the ordinary peace-time vote.
Supply-Health and Welfare


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: The temporary assistance under that vote is up seven times over last year, and there is an item of $21,000 for publicity and information. Would the minister explain those two items?	[DOT]


Brooke Claxton: The item for temporary assistance is up $30,000. It involves two medical specialists at $5,100, or $10,200; one medical officer, grade 4, $3,540; two supervising nurses, one at $1,830 and one at $1,740, or $3,570; chemist, $2,820; and nine other employees, to bring the total to $36,135. That staff is largely staff which has been paid for out of the war appropriation, and it is made up as I have said. With regard to the item for publicity and information, there was an expenditure of $26.01 in preparing six posters which are partly prepared; and also on a booklet on carbon monoxide, $40. The estimate of $21,000 for 1946-47 would cover the completion of the posters, $16,000, and booklets, $5,000, on lead poisoning, dermatitis, manganese poisoning, chromium poisoning, care in the use of materials like chlorine, formaldehyde, et cetera. I should add that there is a monthly bulletin issued by this division, but it entails no expense except mimeographing and mailing.


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: The item is up even though war industries have largely been discontinued, I take it, and also even though on December 15 last, in the discussion on his estimates, reported in Hansard, page 3597, the minister said when discussing this item:
To a great extent the industrial hygiene division of the department has to do with the improvement of standards of health in war industries, in consequence of actual contractual obligations they incurred with the federal government to do such work.
Further down:
We hope that in consequence of this work, the work will be continued under provincial auspices. It is our desire to keep a small division operating, to cooperate with the provinces, but not nearly to the same extent as was done during the war.
Also during his remarks the minister said that in certain cases, particularly in British Columbia, the staff of the department had already been transferred to the provinces. It would seem that there must have been a change of policy between last December and now, because this department is not being handed over to the provinces. Is that the case?


Brooke Claxton: What I said when the matter was up last session about the changeover with regard to British Columbia was correct. But the actual requests for assistance made on the department with regard to carbon
[Mr. Claxton.J
monoxide tests, and the investigation of a number of things which I can hardly pronounce, have increased, and the work of the department has been carried on on about the same basis as before.


Douglas King Hazen: From whom do requests come for this work?


Brooke Claxton: From various agencies of the federal government, from the provincial governments and from industry itself.


Angus MacInnis: I am sorry that I was not in the chamber during the whole of the discussion of this item. But I do not think we should criticize the department for having a substantial amount for industrial hygiene, because it is an important matter. I am not sure just how much study has been made of industrial hygiene and what is done in our various plants to protect the health of the workers. I was greatly amazed some little while ago, in reading an important publication by a pioneer woman doctor in the United States who had done a lot of work in this field, to find that most of the European industrial countries, particularly Great Britain, France and Germany, before the war, were far ahead of the United States and Canada in, the conditions provided and the safeguards they had put in effect. Before we criticize the government's programme or urge a smaller item, we should be fairly sure that what the provinces are doing is sufficient to meet the requirements of industrial life.


Mr. WINTERS:: Just before this item is passed, I wish to say that I entirely agree with what the hon. member for Vancouver East has just said. I have had a small amount of experience in this field, and I know it is the most difficult thing in the world to lay down a programme on a national basis when each province has a different set of standards of industrial hygiene. For example, there is no standard laid down with regard to disposal of carbon monoxide fumes in motor transport garages, or to deal with disposal of sawdust and so on. If you try to find any information on standards with respect to washroom facilities, for instance, there is nothing in Canada that I know of that covers the whole field. You have to turn to standards set up on an arbitrary basis by a New York architectural association or similar institution. I. realize that this is a function of the provinces, but I can think of no better programme in- which the federal government could take part, with a view to coordinating the effort on the part of the provinces as a whole. This seems to me to

Supply-Health and Welfare
be a field that is wide open and one in which more should be done, so that any money spent in this direction is all to the good.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The two hon. gentlemen who have last spoken have touched on an important subject. If it were not for the lateness of the hour I should like to elaborate upon it. The large industrial plants themselves do what they can to protect the health of their employees, and so they should. When they consult an architect to draw up plans they ask him to lay out the plant with a view to conserving the health of the employees. I believe I have asked in previous years what the department does to assist in this matter. They certainly cannot interfere in the provinces, because health is a matter that is under provincial control, but this parliament and the government could assist through the medium of the provinces and the provinces could in this way assist industrial institutions. It is important that every possible safeguard should be provided in plants, large and small, to preserve and conserve the health of all workers. I should like to hear from the minister how the department assists, through the provinces down to the plants, or through the architectural association.


Brooke Claxton: The department does work closely with the provincial authorities. The specialized facilities provided by the division of industrial hygiene were utilized for its own investigations and by provincial health and labour departments, workmen's compensation boards, private factories, labour groups and other agencies concerned with the problem of health in relation to occupation. To meet its own responsibilities, and to assist and cooperate with provincial authorities in setting up their own industrial hygiene services, the department trained and lent to each of the provincial departments of health in Nova Scotia, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and to the workmen's compensation board in British Columbia, a competent industrial hygiene chemist. By December, 1945, the provincial authorities in Manitoba and British Columbia had completed their own industrial hygiene divisions and assumed full administrative and financial responsibility for these. However, they ask that this department supply technical and consultant assistance as and when certain complex problems might arise. We still have industrial hygiene chemists in Nova Scotia and Saskatchewan and, later in the year, it is proposed to lend another to the department of health of Alberta to assist in a survey of occupational health hazards in the industries of that province.
In this field of activity there has been an enormous increase in interest since the outbreak of the war, owing partly to the fact
that the federal government required it of industry which was doing war work, but also to the interest on the part of industry itself and of all workers, working together to improve industrial standards. Further, during the war a number of processes were developed including those using solvents, acetone paints and so on, to which new industrial hazards were attached. In all these fields we did what we could during the war, but it has been found that the interest and the need for the work have since continued. It is carried on in close cooperation with the provinces. With regard to carbon monoxide poisoning and some conditions in connection with mining, work is done in other branches of the government, but very largely by the provinces themselves. I hope I have indicated to the hon. member for Davenport and others who have supported the vote that it has been done in the sensible way, namely, in cooperation with the provinces and with industry, and that it is useful work.


John Ritchie MacNicol: On a former occasion one of the answers which the minister gave was that part of the vote was to take care of the health of the workers in industrial war plants operated under the government. I believe also that something was said about preserving the health of the northwest territories. That would be purely under his department.


Brooke Claxton: This vote is limited to matters connected with industry.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I know, but what about the mines? Do they not come under this? There is no government up there.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health branch-
212.	Civil service health division (including medical investigation division), $180,078.
Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: There is a publicity item there.


Brooke Claxton: There was an expenditure of $230 in 1945-46 on the preparation of a booklet giving information to civil servants regarding services that will be furnished to them when this service is established.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I thought the service was established last year?


Brooke Claxton: It was announced in May, 1945. Since then, it has been acquiring staff and rendering partial but not full service such as will be given as soon as we can get doctors, staffs and space necessary to give a full service. The estimate here for publicity is designed to cover health education work in connection with the civil service either through films, lectures, pamphlets or posters.
Supply-Health and Welfare

That is considered to be an important part of the service when we have it established. The service will include examination and educational work, emergency care and so on.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The minister has not yet given a breakdown of the total expenditure last year, unless that- item of $230 was the only expenditure out of $25,000 appropriated.


Brooke Claxton: Yes.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Nor has he given a breakdown of the projected expenditures of $18,000 this year.


Brooke Claxton: We have not a breakdown for the $18,000. That is the estimate arrived at to cover items I mentioned, such as pamphlets, booklet, posters and so on.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I think the item had
better stand.
Item stands.
Progress reported.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Ian Alistair Mackenzie: On Monday we shall take up the two bills standing in the name of the Minister of Reconstruction, one dealing with the national research council and the other with atomic energy.


Donald Methuen Fleming: In that order?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Not necessarily. I am not sure of the order. We might ask for two new departments in supply, and if we get into supply for purposes of discussion we shall take justice, national defence and public works.


George Alexander Cruickshank: May I ask the leader of the house if we shall sit Monday night?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.