1946-08-06

Hon. DOUGLAS ABBOTT (Acting Minister of Finance):: I should like to make a brief announcement concerning the sugar ration. Although world sugar supplies remain below requirements, the worst appears to be over and a gradual improvement in the future is to be expected. The improvement to date has made it possible for the wartime prices and trade board to make an increase in rations to household consumers of three pounds of sugar per person during the remainder of the year, effective in September and November, and to increase quotas to industrial users and public caterers of all kinds by a roughly proportionate amount.

Trade Agreements



TRADE AGREEMENTS


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Right Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Acting Secretary of State for External Affairs) moved:
That it is expedient that the houses of parliament, do approve the trade agreement between Canada and Mexico signed at the city of Mexico on February 8, 1946, and that this house do approve the same.
That it is expedient that the houses of parliament do approve the trade agreement between Canada and Colombia signed at Bogota on February 20, 1946, and that this house do approve the same.
He said:	Perhaps the house will give
unanimous consent to dealing with both these notices of motion at the same time, because they are both of the same nature and can probably be conveniently dealt with in that way.
Mr. GRAYDON:: They are entirely different trade treaties, and because of that we might make just as much progress by dealing with them separately. I have no definite views on the matter, but perhaps the minister would indicate his reasons for suggesting that they both be dealt with at the same time.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: My particular reason is that in 1942 there were three motions of the same kind which were dealt with at the same time; but if there is the slightest objection I do not mind going on with the first one and then dealing by reference with the other motion.


Gordon Graydon: So far as I am concerned I have no objection to going on with the two of them at the same time if it will expedite the matter.


Mr. CHURCH:: Will the agreements be followed by a treaty?


Mr. MacINNIS:: Is it customary to debate notices of motion? As I understand it, this is merely notice, and that it will go to the appropriate section of the order paper and then come up in due course. I did not think if is customary to debate resolutions which appear as notices of motion.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: The hon. member is suggesting that motions should not be dealt with at this time? I know of no such rule. The standing orders provide a special place for government notices of motion, and the requirement is that there be forty-eight hours' notice. The notice was put in the Votes and Proceedings of last Friday, and I mentioned it last evening as a matter to be taken up this morning. I do not want to thwart the wishes
of any of the hon. members, but it had been felt that these motions could be dealt with to-day.


Angus MacInnis: I am not opposing it. Perhaps the procedure in regard to notices of this kind is different from the procedure on a notice preceding a bill.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: Yes.


Gordon Graydon: Money resolutions.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I take it, then, I have the unanimous consent of the house to have both resolutions considered at the same time, so that they both may be dealt with in the same remarks.
Although these trade agreements are negotiated and signed by the Minister of Trade and Commerce, I understand that it has been the practice of the Secretary of State for External Affairs to move in the house the resolutions for approval of such agreements. In 1942 the Prime Minister explained that that practice had been adopted because the formalities for ratification and notification to the other contracting parties were handled through the Department of External Affairs.
These agreements are of the nature of agreements affording most favoured nation treatment between the countries which enter into them. They are similar to other trade agreements of which there have been several in recent years; as a matter of fact there were seven from 1937 to 1942. In 1937 there was a similar agreement between Canada and Uruguay, which was approved at the session of 1937. In 1938 two were approved, one with Guatemala and the other with Haiti. In 1940 the house gave approval to a similar agreement between Canada and the Dominican republic, and in 1942 the house approved of three similar agreements entered into between Canada and Chile, Canada and Brazil, and Canada and Argentina.
The two agreements now before the house are one more indication of the growing spirit of cordiality between Canada and the Latin republics. They will serve to strengthen the bonds of friendship which unite Canada and the two countries, and to facilitate further and to develop the commercial relations already existing, on a mutually profitable basis. Both trade agreements provide in general for most favoured nation treatment, and are similar to the trade agreements with the other Latin American nations. The trade agreement with Mexico was signed on February 8, at Mexico City and came into provisional effect on the same day. The trade agreement with Colombia was signed at Bogota on February 20 and will come into effect thirty days after the exchange
Trade Agreements

of ratifications. Both agreements are to remain in force for a period of two years, and to continue thereafter subject to termination on six months' notice. The trade agreement with Mexico provides for the exchange of most favoured nation treatment between the two countries in matters concerning duties and subsidiary charges, as -well as in respect of rules and formalities connected with importation and of laws and regulations affecting the taxation, sale, distribution or use of imported goods. This means in a general way that the products of each country, on importation into the other, will not be subject to customs duties or other charges greater than those applicable to similar imports from a third country. Similarly any reductions which either Canada or Mexico may grant in future to a third country will automatically be extended to the other. Thus imports into Canada from Mexico will in future, instead of being subject to the general tariff as heretofore, be . accorded the intermediate tariff, and any lower rates than the intermediate tariff granted by Canada to other foreign countries, with the exception of course of the imperial preferences. There is a special reservation in both treaties providing that arrangements between Canada and other dominions or colonies subject to the British crown are not affected. The tariff treatment now granted by Canada to other British countries is expressly excluded from the operation of the agreement.
No immediate reduction in customs duties is made by Mexico for goods of Canadian origin, as it has been Mexican policy not to limit the application of conventional duties to countries with which she has trade agreements. In other words, Mexico has a single column of duties applicable equally to imports from all countries, and any tariff reductions she has made in favour of a particular country, as for example those contained in the Mexico-United States trade agreement concluded- in 1942, already in practice have been extended to Canada.
An important provision of the agreement is that quantitative restrictions which may be imposed upon imports into either country from the other are subject to consultation. The agreement provides also that if either country sets up government agencies with exclusive privileges for exportation or importation of goods, such agencies will be influenced solely by consideration of price, quality, transportation and terms of purchase or sale which would ordinarily be taken into account by a private commercial enterprise.

Subject to certain specified exceptions, the new agreement provides that imports into either country from the other will be exempt from all internal taxes, fees, or charges other or higher than those payable on articles of national origin within the taxing country or of any other foreign origin. That is, there is to be no tax discrimination in this country on goods imported from Mexico, and vice versa. This provision will result in a reduction in the Mexican registration fees established by the Mexican department of health. Hitherto the fee for registration of packaged food products and beverages has been 50 pesos per product, and for pharmaceutical specialties and toilet preparations, 200 pesos per product, when imported from any country except the United States. That special charge is eliminated by virtue of this most favoured nation agreement. The fee for goods of both these categories of Mexican domestic origin or when imported from the United States is 20 pesos per product, and will now be the same for like products imported into Mexico from Canada. Under the new agreement, Canadian goods of these classes will also be entitled to the lower fee when submitted for registration in Mexico.
The trade agreement also provides that each country will grant the other an opportunity for consultation if either adopts any measure which is considered by the government of the other country as tending to nullify or impair any of the objects of the agreement. The operation of customs regulations, control of foreign exchange, quantitative restrictions and their administration, the observance of customs formalities and the application of sanitary laws and regulations all come within the scope of this provision of the agreement. If a satisfactory adjustment is not arrived at after consultation, the agreement may be terminated in whole or in part upon giving thirty days' notice.
The trade agreement, which is the first ever concluded between Canada and Mexico, came into force provisionally on February 8, the date of its signature. The provisional application may be terminated on three months' notice by either party. Thirty days after exchange of the instruments of ratification at Ottawa the trade agreement is to go into force definitely for two years. Its duration is automatically continued thereafter for one year periods, subject to termination on six months' notice by either party to the agreement.
It may perhaps be of some interest to hon. members to have an indication of the volume of trade between Canada and Mexico in recent years. For instance, in 1940 Canadian exports to Mexico amounted to $4,328,406 and our imports were only $733,797.

Trade Agreements


Mr. BROOKS:: Could the minister give us
any idea what the chief exports were from Canada to Mexico?
Mr. ST. LAURENT:	Yes. I shall give
the amounts and then give the hon. member an indication of what the principal exports were. In 1942 our exports were $5,583,644 and our imports had risen to $4,970,432. In 1945 our exports totalled $8,165,058 and our imports $13,508,164. In the first six months of 1946 our exports were $4,718,662 and our imports $9,491,005. I have a tabulation showing our exports to Mexico and our imports from that country for 1945:
Canada's Trade with Mexico Calendar Year-1945
Principal Exports to Mexico
Total Exports	$ 8,165,058
Principal Items:
Newsprint	 924,141
Soda and sodium compounds		531,614
Wood pulp sulphite bleached and
unbleached	 551,816
Copper wire insulated	 359,944
Asbestos milled fibres	 315,661
Bars of iron or steel	 313,367
Upper leather	 299,540
Cattle, pure bred	 267,115
Fox skins, black and silver	 258,192
Electrical apparatus	 241,205
Films, photographic and cinema... 217,944
Machinery and parts	 209,740
Materials for ship repairs	 208,728
Pens, pencils and parts	 184,919
Whisky	 180,936
Felt manufactures	 156,774
Wheat	 118.277
Ferro alloys	 104,148
Coal, tar and pitch	 103,140
Cotton fabrics, n.o.p	 100,471
Nickel fine	 100,863
Principal Imports from Mexico Total Imports	$13,508,165
Principal Items:
Sisal, istle and Tampico fibre.... 4,526,620
Raw cotton	 2,524.943
Tomatoes fresh	 2,020,889
Peanuts shelled green or not		1,412,851
Bananas fresh	 823,311
Rubber crude caoutchouc	 299,325
Glucose or grape sugar	 264,488
Boots and shoes, women's leather. .	177,902
Wax, vegetable and mineral n.o.p. 135,244 Fluorspar	 127,482
The trade agreement with Colombia is similar in substance to the Mexican agreement. It is also the first agreement concluded between the two countries directly. Previously Canada's commercial relations with Colombia had been treated as being governed by a treaty between that country and the United Kingdom, which was looked upon as extending to Canada. This is the first direct treaty between Canada and Colombia.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: What were the exports of
potatoes and fish to those two countries? These exports affect the maritime provinces.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I have placed upon Hansard in respect of Mexico, and shall in respect of Colombia, the tabulations obtained from the Department of Trade and Commerce. Apparently in 1945 the exports of either item did not amount to as much as $250,000. The table showing Canada's trade with Colombia for the calendar year 1945 is as follows:
Canada's Trade with Colombia Calendar Year

>1945
Principal Exports to Colombia
Total Exports	$ 5,010,701
Principal Items:
Wheat	 771,761
Wrapping paper kraft	 335,666
Newsprint paper	 290,453
Copper and brass manufactures....	268.730
Flour of wheat	 240,112
Asbestos and manufactures	 231,942
Machinery and parts	 221.374
Oatmeal and rolled oats	 153,241
Upper leather	 149,469
Wood pulp sulphite bleached		149,431
Nails, brads, spikes, iron	 140,960
Pipe and tubing and fittings of iron 184,112 Medicinal preparations	 101,168
Principal Imports from Colombia
Total Imports	$11,678,076
Principal Items:
Crude petroleum for refining		7,662,531
Coffee green, imported direct....	3,586,755
Bananas, fresh	 194,346
Casinghead gasoline, blending....	179,725
It is apparent that our trade with these Latin countries of America is expanding. I must say it was gratifying to me, as I am sure it must have been to other hon.. members who were a-t San Francisco-, to note how cordial all the representatives of these Latin republics were to the Canadian delegation. Innumerable statements were made to us, statements which were. pleasing and some most gratifying, respecting the possibilities of increasing trade with them. I remember asking one gentleman what it was that seemed to stimulate that desire to trade with us. His reply was, "Well, you know, we buy on sample from you, -and when we receive delivery of the goods, those goods are equail to the samples." I thought that was a most satisfactory feeling to have exist among our customers, and I am pleased to have this opportunity to pay tribute to the Canadian business men who have made for Canada that reputation. I am sure, Mr. Speaker, that on your several visits to those parts you have found- a similar desire to improve trade relations between our country and theirs.
World Health Organization

I hope these trade agreements will 'be the forerunner of the objects for which the international trade conference is being convened at some early day, and- that these trade agreements and the goo-d will which grows from them will not only serve the financial interests of those who engage in them, but will lay the foundation for that better understanding among men which can be the only real foundation of peace and security.


Mr. G. K. FRASER (Peterborough West):: Mr. Speaker, I believe these two agreements have helped Canada considerably. As the minister said, they have been in operation for some time, -and have worked1 out satisfactorily. They constitute a step in the right direction, because Canada has lost some of her European market, with the result that we must look to other countries for the sale of our products, to keep the wheels of industry turning.
Checking the two agreements reveals that the wording is about the same in each. I can see no objection to their being accepted.
Mr. Mc-IVOR: This is a tribute to our steady, thorough and progressive Minister of Trade and Commerce-


[Stage Direction]
Motions agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. L. S. St. LAURENT (Acting Secretary of State for External Affairs) moved:
That it is expedient that the houses of parliament do approve the constitution of the world health organization signed at New York on July 22, 1946, and that -this house do approve the same.
He said:	Mr. Speaker, hon. gentlemen
would no doubt wish to have a few words, which will not be new to them but which will summarize the steps which led up to the formation of this world health organization.
Mr. BLACKMORE:: Would it be possible to have a copy of the document?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: The constitution was published as an appendix to Votes and Proceedings of July 24.
The steps leading up to the signature of the constitution of the world health organization in New York on July 22 were initiated, at the united nations conference at San Francisco when the word "health" was inserted in the charter upon the proposal of the delegation from Brazil. Following this action the states represented on the appropriate committee unanimously approved the following declara-

tion of Brazil and China, on the calling of an international conference for the purpose of establishing an international health organization.
The resolution thus unanimously approved was in the following terms:
The. delegations of Brazil and China recommend that a general conference be convened within the next few months for the purpose of establishing an international health organization.
They intend to consult further with the representatives of other delegations with a view to the early convening of such a general conference to which each of the governments here represented will be invited to send representatives.
They recommend that in the preparation of a plan for the international health organization full consideration be given to the relationship of such an organization, and methods of associating it with -other institutions, national as well as international, which already exist or which may hereafter be established in the field of health.
They recommend that the proposed international health organization be brought into relationship with the economic and social council.
Although the governments of Brazil and China followed up the declaration by suggesting that a conference be held before the end of 1945, the resolution relating to this proposal was not adopted by the economic and social council until February 15, 1946. In accordance with the terms of paragraph 3 of this resolution, the economic and social council established the technical preparatory committee and directed that it should meet in Paris not later than March 15, 1946, to prepare a draft annotated agenda and proposals for the consideration of the conference to be held not later than June 20, 1946.
At this point it might be useful to note what the Secretary of State (Mr. Martin) said at the economic and social council of June 29, 1946. These were the words he used:
In the establishment of the economic and social council, in the setting up of its commissions, in the negotiation of relationships with the special purpose, agencies established by intergovernmental agreement, we are opening up a new chapter in the long struggle of mankind to master his environment, to the end that the material and economic resources of the world are used for the enrichment and not the destruction of humanity. Our task is not an easy one. We shall have to overcome not only the internal forces in various countries which resist change, but also the skepticism that we shall encounter in many parts of the world regarding the possibility of sucess in a cooperative effort of this sort.
I may say that these views, expressed thus by our Secretary of State at the international meeting, ap'peared to meet wit-h the unanimous approval of those to whom they were addressed.

World Health Organization
At the international health conference which met at the Henry Hudson hotel in New York city on June 19, 1946, the rapporteur of the technical preparatory committee, Major General G. B. Chisholm, presented a report which included proposals for the constitution of the world health organization. These proposals had been carefully worked out in Paris by this technical preparatory committee of experts, and they proved to be most useful documents.
The constitution of the world health organization will be found on page 9 of the addendum to the Votes and Proceedings of July 24.
Hon. .members will note in chapter 3 of the constitution that membership in the organization is open to all states. Conditions of admission, however, are governed by articles 4, 5 and 6 of the constitution. Fifty-one united nations attended the conference, and in addition the governments of Albania, Austria, Bulgaria, Eire, Finland, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Portugal, Siam, Sweden, Switzerland and Transjordan were represented by observers. The governments of the following states had also been invited to send observers but were not represented. Afghanistan, Roumania, Yeman. The Allied control authorities in Germany, Japan and Korea were represented by observers but without the right to vote. So were ten other international organizations.
Hon. members will note that article 19 deals with the powers of the health assembly to adopt conventions or agreements with respect to any matter within the competence of the organization, and article 20 imposes the obligation upon member states to take action relative to the acceptance or rejection of conventions or agreements proposed by the health assembly within eighteen months after the adoption of a convention or agreement.
A member is not bound to acquiesce in the convention or agreement, but if he does not accept the convention within the time limit he is required to furnish a statement of his reasons for non-acceptance to the director-general.
Article 21 gives the health assembly the authority to adopt regulations concerning five matters. It is stipulated in article 22 that such regulations shall come into force for all members after due notice has been given of their adoption by the health assembly, except for such members as may notify the director-general of ratification or reservation within the period stated in the notice.
With respect to article 21, A, B, D, and E, these refer to matters which were dealt with before by international agreement and sanitary conventions and by national legislation 63260-274
such as our food and drugs act. "A" refers to sanitary and quarantine requirements and other provisions designed to prevent the international spread of disease. "B" contains the nomenclatures with respect to diseases, causes of death and public health practices so that statistics supplied by the nations, members of the organization, may be comparable. "C" relates to standards with respect to diagnostic procedures for international use, and is perhaps more of professional and scientific than of general interest. "D" relates to standards with respect to the safety, purity and potency of biological, pharmaceutical and similar products moving in international commerce, and of course it is very important for the health of the world that such biological and pharmaceutical products which are distributed internationally be of standard quality and purity. "E" deals with advertising and labelling of biological, pharmaceutical and similar products moving in international commerce.
With respect to article 21C, that is to say, standards for diagnostic procedures for international use, this is a new departure, but it is felt that it can be beneficial to world understanding. From the Canadian viewpoint we have high standards of requirements for the safety and potency of pharmaceutical and biological products. The adoption of standards of requirements concerning them will not adversely affect us. If in the future some regulation should prove unacceptable to the government of Canada, the government can at any time contract out by giving notice, within eighteen months, of its desire to do so and of its reasons for so doing. It is felt that this will be one of the useful agencies of the international organization, and it is in line with the general purposes and aims of us all to strive for peace among men by making men realize what help they can receive from each other and to what extent it is beneficial to them all to be dependent upon one another.


Mr. W. G. BLAIR (Lanark):: The constitution of the international health conference, which has been placed before the house by the Acting Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent), is one of the most important documents that have ever been considered by the Canadian Parliament. If the nations of the world agree to establish a world health organization, then there is every hope for agreement in other matters.
The constitution, objective and functions as described in chapter I comprise a momentous decision on the part of the nations of the world. Never before in the history of the world have all the nations mutually agreed on a common plan for the betterment of the



UVISID EDITION

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World Health Organization
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health conditions of humanity. It is only by united effort that the world may be cleansed and healed of the scourge of disease so prevalent in its past history, causing untold agonies and distress which to a great degree could have been avoided if such understanding among the nations of the world had been in effect decades ago.
The world is suffering from a malignant disease which causes loss of economic, social and spiritual values. We can effect a cure only by cultivating a spirit of cooperation among all peoples. This can best be done by banishing preventable disease, poverty, cold and hunger. We believe that in civilized society no man should be allowed to suffer or die from such causes, but it will be necessary to build a new world on the ruins of the old. Human rights must be restored and new confidence and tolerance must be established. The preservation of health must be international in scope, and science will aid in the upbuilding of the new world. More than ever before we must prevent and control disease and concern ourselves with the care of the handicapped and crippled, maternal and child care, the construction of hospitals, maintenance of health centres, the removal of the causes which predispose such large numbers of cases of mental illness, medical service to the poor, and other aspects of social security.
To provide health services for the people a government should give financial support, leadership and direction. In order to safeguard the state, its people must be as physically and mentally fit as it is possible to make them. There should be no economic or geographic boundaries in equality of opportunity for medical care. The aims of the science of healing should be international and the same over all the world. Canada must take her place along with similar organizations in other nations in preventing wars and giving adequate health services to all people. The present is an opportune time to form an intenational organization whose first Object is to give better health and medical services to all people. Millions of the people of the world are suffering physically and mentally as a result of the war. A united nations health organization would provide much toward the welfare and future happiness of mankind. Now that military victory in Europe has been achieved, peace will bring many difficult problems for solution. We can best solve these problems and reach a better understanding by the relief of suffering.
The pages of the history of our own country, when studied from the aspect of health, show many occasions on which disease itself con-

trolled the destiny of a young and growing nation. Few are aware that it played a major role in the mastery of the North American continent, in the wars between France and England.. Repeatedly it decimated the population and seriously retarded the development of the country. A person who has not taken full account of the diseases which afflicted this country and of the efforts to stay their ravages does not know the full history of Canada. Had it not been for disease that plagued the French settlers from the time of their arrival in the country, it is doubtful whether Canada would have become a British possession. Contagious diseases were rapidly introduced by shipping from the earliest days and recurred in epidemic form at frequent intervals. We look upon influenza as a disease of modern civilization, yet there were many outbreaks in Canada in- the early days. It appeared at regular interval® and there are many records of it. In 1918 it eclipsed all previous records, causing 30.000 deaths in Canada, Like many other diseases it was introduced by shipping and spread throughout the whole country, at least- one-sixth of the population being affected. If disease can control the destiny of Canada, it may well control the world.
We in- Canada have failed to learn our lesson from the past. In the examination of recruits for the war just ended thirty-five to forty per cent of our young men were found unfit for service. A high percentage of these defects for which they were rejected could have been eliminated by early and proper treatment. The infant mortality in our own country is fifty-four per thousand live births. In this regard I give the following statistics of infant mortality in other countries, all of which have a lower rate than we have in Canada:
Sweden	 29
New Zealand	 31
Iceland	  36
Australia	  36
Norway	 37
Switzerland	 40
Netherlands	 40
United States	 40
Denmark	  45
England and Wales	 48
South Africa	 52
A review of the causes of death in- all groups shows the following as of 1943:
Typhoid	 116
Scarlet fever	 100
Whooping cough	 416
Diphtheria	 287
Tuberculosis	  6,168
Cancer	 14,135
There were 798 maternal deaths in Canada in 1943. I call attention to the large number of deaths from tuberculosis and cancer within

World Health Organization
our dominion. The elimination of venereal disease stands as a challenge to all Canadians working in the field of public health. The high death rate from cancer should call for all means to be used in research for cure. Death and disease do not wait for a gradual extension of science. Death and suffering of the people, while life is within reach, is a human cruelty and an affront to mankind's conscience. The fights against maternal mortality, against the maiming and death caused by infantile paralysis, against tuberculosis and venereal disease, are fights for the whole Canadian nation. Science is a factor in the battle against maternal mortality and in the prevention of infantile paralysis with its terrible crippling effects. Modern research has made, and is now making, tremendous progress in every major disease, but these methods are not being used in the cure of disease for all of the population. If . money can be obtained to wipe out such disease which it costs us millions to maintain, then within a generation there will no longer be this drain upon the wealth of our nation. This is one way to ease our tax burden. The insulin research of Banting and the workers associated with him cost less than $10,000. The Rockefeller Foundation gave Howard Florry $1,280 for apparatus which helped solve problems in the production of penicillin. If one per cent of the annual cost of disease were given to trained researchers, much could be done to improve health in this country and save the colossal sums spent annually on disease.
The cost of prevention of disease, now possible, thanks to modern medicine, is nothing compared to the terrific present cost of supporting people through long years of unproductive sickness. It costs more to let them be disabled than it would cost to keep them in good health and let them earn their own living.
Of the twenty-two clauses of functions in the draft of the united nations health organization, there is not one open to debate or criticism. It would be impossible to discuss all of them in the time allotted. I shall refer to one or two items:
Clause A states:
The health assembly shall have authority to adopt regulations concerning sanitary and quarantine requirements and other procedures designed to prevent the international spread of disease.
This is most important to the protection of our own country. Owing to modern methods of travel and the shortness of time required to make a journey, persons suffering from contagious disease might land in this country during the incubation stage before the disease was apparent.
The promotion of research and interchange of scientific data will lead to important discoveries being made by the scientists of the world. It may well be that a bacteriologist in far off Australia may discover a cure or treatment for infantile paralysis, and that as a result of his efforts little children in Canada will not be crippled.
A scientist in his laboratory in Europe may discover a treatment for cancer and thus save suffering and death from a disease which kills one person in eight of the population of Canada.
The extent of cooperation outlined in the resolution is of such magnitude that it is difficult to believe. But one fact is outstanding, that in the present troubled state of the peoples of the world more will be accomplished by the world health organization to promote peace and good will than by any other agency in the power of the nations. Ignorance and prejudices will be broken down by healing the sufferings of humanity. During the war we glibly talked of the new world to be built after victory. Let us build that new world by a combined effort to eliminate disease and misery. I appeal to the members of the Canadian parliament to support this resolution unanimously.
Mrs. GLADYS STRUM (Qu'Appelle):: Mr. Speaker, I am sure that, all hon. members will be glad to support this motion and that we are all agreed on the objective as set out in article 1:
The objective of the world health organization shall be the attainment by all peoples of the highest possible level of health.
I think the definitions are very well set out, too, under the constitution. I particularly like the second paragraph, which says:
The enjoyment of the highest attainable standard of health is one of the fundamental rights of every human being without distinction of race, religion, political belief, economic or social condition.
Much careful thought has gone into the drawing up of this very fine constitution, and I only hope that we shall live up to the expectations of those who drafted it. I am reminded of the tragedy of the labour convention at Geneva where twenty-six years ago Canada endorsed the eight-hour day, and in Canada we are still striking to attain it. I hope we do not do that with our health commitments; otherwise a lot of people are going to die in the meantime.
As I see it, Canada has two sets of responsibilities: first, to support this organization and take full part in it, to see that we have full representation and that we share the financial obligation, and to ensure that nothing is left
World Health Organization

undone in the sharing of research, and second, to clean up Canada. Canada has made some splendid contributions to the attack on disease. When we think of Sir Frederick Banting and his gift of insulin; when we think of the record we have set in the matter of the onslaught on tuberculosis, which a few years ago was one of the great scourges from which mankind suffered, I believe it will be agreed that we too have helped to write medical history. I am reminded of the history of our attack on tuberculosis, and in the province from which I come we have established, I believe, a world record. We found there that there were social factors which made it possible to do this, and the most important of all was the controlled environment of the patient. When we began to treat tuberculosis we did not only look after the medical end of it; we looked after housing and nutrition. The patient in a tuberculosis sanatorium gets the very finest of food-unlimited quantities of fruit and meat and milk, the best of housing, of heating, of sanitation and everything else that contributes to healthful surroundings. There, I think, we have one of the keys of the attack on disease-the controlled environment of the individual. But so long as we in Canada have slums, overcrowding, obsolete and unsanitary buildings, ignorance and poverty, we shall sustain these losses from disease, preventable losses which we can avoid by attacking the living conditions of our people. So I hope not only that we shall sign this covenant and pledge ourselves to international health, but that we shall not rest until every Canadian family has healthful, sanitary home surroundings.
I see here that we have had seven different conventions on sanitation. I wish I had the figures to show how many families in this country still do not have sanitary conveniences. There is a great field of activity open to us, if we are interested in sanitation, in seeing to it that every family has plumbing and running water, a clean water supply, sufficient space, good beds, good clothing, and laundry facilities. These are the very essence of cleanliness and health, and in this direction we can make a really worth while contribution.
I believe we are very fortunate in our minister of health and that he is doing excellent work. However, this parliament should extend to the provinces grants under the provisions which were suggested in the original proposals, to allow the provinces through their departments of health to make an attack on the various aspects of public health-the mental diseases, the venereal diseases, tuberculosis-and to establish a special division of child and maternal welfare. I hope
(Mrs. Strum.]
that very soon the Minister of Finance will see fit to extend to the provinces that are going to sign these agreements individually the same assistance which the original proposals contain, because we all know that health is a provincial matter, that it must be paid for in cold dollars and cents, and that it is for sale; that there are millions of people to-day suffering from disease, and thousands in this country doomed to die because they have not the price of medical attention. For them health is unavailable, and until we make health services free, thousands of people are doomed to die of cancer, for instance, because they cannot afford expensive surgery. Only one province that I know of has completely eliminated personal cost from the treatment of cancer. When we have made it possible for the provinces to carry out their programmes of health we can begin to feel that we in Canada have done our part towards realization of the dream of the great men who drew up this charter.


Thomas Langton Church: Mr. Speaker, the motion of the acting Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. St. Laurent) is a most laudable one, but I say to him that this interim agreement, followed by a constitution of a world health organization establishing certain definite principles, should not be treated as Canada dealt with the public health convention of 1927, the international sanitary convention which is referred to in this schedule and was concluded on June 21, 1926. I remember being in the house at that time, and I was of opinion that Canada should take an active part regarding the health of the world, and for the reasons expressed in this constitution:
Health is a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity
The enjoyment of the highest attainable standard of health is one of the fundamental rights of every human being without distinction of race, religion, political belief, economic or social condition.
The health of all peoples is fundamental to the attainment of peace and security and is dependent upon the fullest cooperation of individuals and states.
The achievement of any state in the promotion and protection of health is of value to all.
Unequal development in different countries in the promotion of health and control of disease, especially communicable disease, is a common danger.
The convention goes on to describe many branches of public health. But what has Canada since 1926? As a nation we have merely given lip service to these ideals. We spent only half a million dollars, and the promotion of public health in Canada has

World Health Organization
been left largely to hospitals, public and private, to the universities and the municipalities. Since 1926 in some municipalities we have had to mark up from $1 to $2.50 a day for per diem patients. It was about the time of the 1926 convention that Doctor Banting wanted to go to the United States to practice -he had started practice in London-and to carry on the researches which led to his great discovery of the treatment of diabetes. The night before last I was looking at his grave in Mount Pleasant cemetery, marked only by a small tombstone. When one thinks of what this one invention and discovery in medicine and science did for the soldiers of the war from which we have just emerged, it is a revelation and a promise of what scientific research can do.
There have been many long discussions on the minister's health estimates in this house concerning public health. Long ago I urged here a forward national health policy. One of the mistakes made at confederation was the failure to foresee the need for a national health policy along the lines set out, first in the convention of 1926, and now in the interim convention which was only adopted on July 22 of this year. It is to be hoped that we shall now go into the matter in a practical way; in 1926 we only paid lip service to it. Let us do something practical now with the $14,000,000 voted here for public health. As I said in the debate on the estimates, the first duty of the government is to look after the health, peace, happiness and prosperity of its people. When I go around the country and see some of the conditions and the lack of aid to health departments I am surprised. When the municipal people ask for something, nothing is given.
National public health is looked after only by the municipalities, and the municipalities have to establish at great cost their own health departments without federal aid. It is the most important national work we have. If we are to join all these world organizations we shall be roaming all over America. We are on the seven seas in the first two resolutions. If this resolution carries we are bound by everything in it and the new constitution and all that happens in this world society, so the estimates on public health may run into millions of dollars. It is all done by resolution. I contend that that is not right. I often look up the rules of the house. The two motions we have passed dealt with pan-American matters of trade, and they will interfere with British preferences.
There is to be a convention meeting next year on world trade. I ask lion, members to be very careful before they go into these
things. More estimates and votes will be needed in the countries which made this agreement on July 22. Hon. members will well remember a picture contained in the Ottawa Journal which I held up in the house one night, showing the delegates to the New York health meeting. We had about fifteen or twenty people from Canada at this health convention, but there was nobody representing the provinces. The minister was accompanied by what I describe as a small choir, but the health officers of the provinces were not there. They should have been there because they will have to carry out the terms of the text of the interim constitution. The great universities of the country which have made such rapid strides, in peace and war alike, in medicine, science, physics and chemistry and everything else, should have been consulted. I read a copy of the proceedings of this New York meeting which appeared in the New York Times and I find no reference to the universities or to provincial health officers.
While I support the principle of the policy I believe that Canada should stop giving lip loyalty to all these things which will necessitate our voting large sums of money to be used by these bodies. When I first came to the house the problem with regard to agriculture was, where shall the hired man wash his feet. I have never known a minister of agriculture to solve that problem. Now we are going into the tremendous field of international health and medicine and all these things covered by communicable diseases and the other matters set out in. the interim constitution. All this is being done in Canada at a time when not one cent is given to the support of hospitals or to the universities as scholarships so that men of science such as we have in the universities of Toronto, McGill, Queen's, Western and the great university in British Columbia, the great university down by the sea and the other universities of the country, could continue their studies. There is where the mistake was made at confederation. The British North America Act should have made health and education concurrent jurisdiction. We are giving only lip loyalty to these health matters federally. The department is only a skeleton department. If we are to go into this matter let us adopt some new national policy. When we pass this resolution we shall not know what it is going to cost. We had a similar resolution before us in 1926, and we do not know what Canada has done because she left national public health to the hospitals, the universities, municipalities, the medical profes-
World Health Organization

sion, the dental profession and all these other bodies without a vote or any help from the department here.
As I say for several weeks we were represented at this New York convention by the minister, and he had fourteen or fifteen with him, a regular choir. Their task was to represent the department. I do hope that we shall have something practical, done for the health of the country by the provision of more hospitals, nurses and doctors. Two floors have been closed in the Toronto general hospital because of the lack of nurses. All this is going on, but Canada does nothing. Let us improve national health in this country. I am not opposed to the resolution; I supported, it in 1926. The principles of federal aid which guided Doctor Hastings, Toronto's great health officer, are the principles which I express now. He was a leader and a pioneer on health matters at these international conventions which met in the states, after the last war and all over the world.
The British medical association, the body which did more than any other agency for science along the terms of this new constitution, and the various medical associations of the dominions and of the United States, have done great work along these lines. I hope that the time has come-it has to come next year according to the terms of this constitution-for us to be up and doing. It will cost S5 million a year. I ask hon. members to be careful of how they tie us up because the money must be voted by the committee of supply if we adopt the constitution. The money could, be far better spent in Canada where it is badly needed in many ways.
They talk in this agreement about a pure water supply, and all that kind of thing. Impure water is the basis of typhoid, diphtheria, and many other communicable diseases. I remember that Vancouver had a little trouble about sanitation and1 filtration. We have had in our city a pure water supply for twenty-five years. We set it up by 'building a large water filtration system, and since then there have been practically no cases of typhoid and only five or six of diphtheria. At onetime in Toronto, owing .to the collapse of an intake, they were drinking water from the bay.
One of the most important clauses in the constitution will run into hundreds of millions of dollars because it deals with communicable diseases and many new diseases, and new drugs, the use of which is killing some people. We shall have to -be careful about the constitution. Where are the provinces in this convention?^ I think it is important to see that the provinces are consulted and also the larger
[Mr. Church.!
municipalities. Toronto city spends five or six times more than this department of health. The federal department here went from $200,000 to $500,000 before the war, and in the estimates we passed, the other day the amount was $14,000,000.
In his budget speech the Minister of Finance said that we want all these things, but let us remember that they cost money. Let us go into it with our eyes open. We are simply giving lip service by passing all these resolutions in one morning without knowing how they interfere with the plans of the provinces and the municipalities. Every one of the diseases mentioned in the meeting in New York dealt with by the universities and the health officers of Canada many years ago. They were pioneers in this work. Canada was a pioneer, following the principles of the mother country, the United States and the dominions.
This particular agreement was lying on the desk of the Minister of National Health and Welfare on his estimates the night he left. I took part in the debate myself, along with many other hon. members. This agreement should have been considered at that time and all the details given.


Gordon Graydon: Before the resolution carries I wish to point out what I believe to be the justifiable and commendable trend in national and international affairs exhibited in the adoption by this nation and several others of the constitution of the health conference. This trend, now becoming accelerated, portends the making of a better world for which all of us have been striving during these years, and points to our giant objective. It is the placing of a broader emphasis and value upon human needs in. relation to material affairs. If ever there was a time when it was possible to see clearly the movement in world affairs I think it is to-day, when I believe we are finally coming to the point of relegating the strictly material things, such as property values, to a position of importance second to human rights, human values and humanity in general. I welcome a move of this kind as another step in the right direction; that is, to a more progressive position in our world relationships.
This is a great test of international cooperation. I had the privilege of listening to Senator Warren Austin, the new voice of the United States of America on the security council, before he took his place on that couiv cil, when he addressed the New York branch of the foreign policy association. Significantly enough, it was the anniversary of the signing of the San Francisco charter. I think per-

World Health Organization
haps one of the most vital and compelling things he said was that nations still have a long way to go to find a formula by which they can get along, but that health is one of the universal things which may well be used as a testing ground, something in which people of all nations have a common interest and a common objective. I find myself, and I am quite sure this house finds itself, largely in agreement with that point of view. Let us work on those things upon which the nations of the world can more readily agree. Let us work on those first, in a comprehensive way, in order to find, if possible, a formula for dealing with the more difficult problems that lie ahead. This is a testing ground, because health knows no boundaries, health knows no creed, health knows no nationality or limitation. It is a great human relationship which brings the world together from time to time.
It was my privilege to attend for a short period the world conference in New York which has been mentioned already in this debate, and to see arriving for those deliberations great and eminent surgeons and physicians from the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, from the United States of America, from the United Kingdom, from France and from the smaller nations of the world. There I saw a young plastic surgeon, twenty-five years of age, already with great experience; and to the hon. member for Qu'Appelle (Mrs. Strum) I would say she was one of the prominent lady surgeons and physicians who came from all over the world to play a prominent part at the conference. There we had a great pooling of brains in matters affecting surgery,, medicine and public health. To me it was a great and practical example of how the world may finally discover that much sought after formula for a means of living together as good neighbours the world over.
I believe this movement for a world health organization can be pretty well expressed in this sort of phraseology. Those of us who come from the rural parts of Canada realize that no matter how clean you keep your own farm, no matter what measures you take for weed prevention, that is not enough unless your neighbour keeps his farm clean as well. The world health organization represents an effort to see that the weeds all over the world, on our neighbour's land as well as our own, are cleaned up in the interests of all. Without putting it on the lower level of our own selfish interest, it is important that the disease-infested swamps of the world be drained and cleaned up, in our own interests
as well as the interests of those in whose lands the swamps are to be found. I know most of us are interested in the success of the united nations health organization, because success in an endeavour like this goes far in preparing the way for international cooperation on all fronts. Of course the united nations organization has given us cause for some disappointment as well as some optimism; but in the final analysis, like any other organization or any individual, the united nations organization and its various component parts must deliver the goods; and when they have delivered the goods they will have world support. That is why I think we are fortunate in Canada to be one of the first nations to nake a move to adopt a constitution such as fiiis. It is a forward step toward a better world, a better humanity. It lays greater emphasis upon the right things of life which in the end will be the deciding points as between peace or war, content or suffering, joy or sorrow in the days to come..


John Horne Blackmore: It has been interesting to listen to the debate thus far, Mr. Speaker. I have been impressed by the fact that most of those who have participated up to the present time have given reasons why we in Canada should pay much more attention to our health problems, but no reasons why we should join an international organization to accomplish that objective. Apart from such things as quarantine regulations, you might say, it is difficult to see how joining an international organization is going to help us solve the problems which are vital in dealing with our health situation. I greatly enjoyed the remarks of the hon. member for Lanark (Mr. Blair), but in them there was hardly anything to indicate why we should join this international organization, or that to do so would necessarily advance our interests in respect to health. I hope after a while in the house and in the country we may begin to be a little more realistic than we have shown ourselves to be in the last year or so. There seems to be abroad in the land an idea that any problem under the sun can be solved if you can get it far enough away from yourself and into the hands of a big enough international organization. I am really a bit surprised that no one has suggested sending a delegation to Mars, one to Jupiter, one to the moon, and delegations to three or four other planets, to see if we cannot set up an interplanetary organization to solve the problems of the world. That would seem a logical proposal, and I am somewhat disappointed that it has not been brought forward up to the present time.
World Health Organization

This sort of thing simply tends to take our minds off the real difficulties that confront us. Problems' of health in a large measure have to do with the standard of living. Whether joining this international organization for health will enable us to improve our standard of living in Canada, no one has taken pains to explain. Yet it is obvious from what has been said by everyone who has participated in the debate that the real cause of most of our ill health is a poor standard of living in Canada. Will anyone who is so ardently enthusiastic about this organization explain to me how signing the agreement will help us to raise our standard of living in Canada? That is what I want to know.
As I have already pointed out to the house on one or two earlier occasions, in the year preceding June 2, 1941, in Canada 32-9 per cent of our wage earners received less than $450 a year. Until we can change that situation we are simply making ourselves ridiculous, when we spend our time signing international organization agreements to promote health. In that same year another 28-7 per cent of our wage earners were receiving between $450 and $949 a year. A large percentage of the people earning those incomes were heads of families.
I am informed the Toronto welfare council has recently told the people of Canada that for a family to live under conditions of standard health and decency it will require in the neighbourhood of $2,000 a year. What I fear is that hon. members are getting their minds off the essentials that are right nearby. It is a common failing among human beings everywhere, and among organizations of human beings, to dream about the big things to be done by and by, while they neglect the little things around their feet which they might do something about.
There is no doubt that Canada can give to every person in Canada enough of the world's goods to supply a reasonable standard of health and decency. Judging from our national income and the production of our nation there is no reason for our being unable to have a doctor come to visit -regularly; there is no reason why we should not have a dentist attending the children regularly; there is no reason why every 'Canadian citizen should not have all the food he needs, well-balanced and well-prepared. There is no reason why they should not have the clothing and shelter they need.
As I recall it, in his report of 1946 Mr. Graham Towers told us that in 1944 we in Canada produced 11-8 billion dollars worth of goods and services, and in 1945 we profVr. Blackmore.]
duced 11 -4 billion. This was at a time when we had 1,500,000 of our very best potential producers engaged in war. If we take that amount of goods and services and divide it among 12 million people we find that we get in the neighbourhood of $916 per man, woman and child in Canada. Will anyone tell me why we have such a low standard of living among our people? Will anyone tell me how in the world by joining any number of international organizations like this one we can overcome that difficulty? If he will, I shall be interested immediately.
I have no desire to delay the house in a discussion of this matter. But I do hope we shall not get our eye off the ball by chasing rainbows or soap bubbles. By way of diversion I -would draw the attention of hon. members for a moment to the dismal disappointment we have had as a result of joining the united nations organization. A year ago one might have thought that by doing so we would go right into the millennium. Anyone who said we should not join it was held out as a public enemy. Yet, what have we got out of it?
Let us be realistic. Let us face the facts as they are and see if we cannot get down to earth. Let us begin walking on terra firma- on the rocks, the dirt and the mud-so that we shall have a sense of reality in these matters.
The group with which I am associated has no particular objection to joining this international health organization. But we warn that the more of our national affairs we allow either directly or indirectly to be influenced by bodies of people outside our country, the more difficult our situation is going to become. What we must learn is to manage our own country, to run our own business, to clean our own back yard. As soon as we learn how to do that, there will be plenty of people looking over our boundaries to find out how we have done it, We shall not need to go hunting people to teach; they will find us, and come to learn.
I have gone through the agreement, so far as I have had time to do so in conjunction with the many burdens placed upon me-as they are, of course, upon all other hon. members. I do not see in this constitution anything indicating a dangerous amount of control over our national affairs which could be exercised directly or indirectly by the government of this organization. If I could see any evidence that such a possibility was implicit in the organization I would oppose it with all the power at my command, and would call on all hon members to do the same. As it is, I

United Nations-Education
think it amounts almost to another bubble, another rainbow to go chasing after, and by which to be deluded.
Our group will not oppose this resolution; we will allow it to slide through. But let me repeat that it i^ time we got down to earth and began to find out the real cause of the troubles from which we suffer. Let us find out why in a country like Canada, which has produced goods valued at 11-8 billions of dollars, 32-9 per cent of our wage earners receive less than S450 a year, thus making it utterly impossible for them, and for any of those connected with them, to have health. If I might bring in another illustration which comes to mind, I would mention that I am now engaged in the industrial relations committee. Why in the world is it that we in Canada are risking the whole economic welfare of the country by resisting the desire of a group of men to make SI,750 a year as a minimum?


Mr. SPEAKER:: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but his remarks are not relevant to the motion before the house.


John Horne Blackmore: I have all the deference for you and your opinion, Mr. Speaker, but not a single word of what I have uttered could possibly be said to be irrelevant to the matter of health in this country. Nor can it be irrelevant to the health of the world-not one word. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is the position in which your ruling puts the whole situation in this country.
I refrain from saying any more.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Acting Secretary of State for External Affairs) moved:
That it is expedient that the houses of parliament do approve the constitution of the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization signed at London, on November 16, 1945, and that this house do approve the same.
He said: I do not think I could say anything more effective in support of this motion than to put on Hansard the preamble to the constitution of the united nations educational, scientific and cultural organization:
The governments of the states parties to this organization on behalf of their peoples declare:
That since wars begin in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men that the defences of peace must be constructed; that ignorance of each other's way and lives has been a common cause, throughout the history of mankind, of that suspicion and mistrust between the peoples of the world through which their differences have all too often broken into war; that the great and
terrible war which has now ended was a war made possible by the denial of the democratic principles of the dignity, equality and mutual respect of men, and by the propagation, in their place, through ignorance and prejudice, of the doctrine of the inequality of men and races; that the wide diffusion of culture, and the education of humanity for justice and liberty and peace are indispensable to the dignity of man and constitute a sacred duty which all the nations must fulfil in a spirit of mutual assistance and concern; that a peace based exclusively upon the political and economic arrangements of governments would not be a peace which could secure the unanimous, lasting and sincere support of the peoples of the world, and that the peace must therefore be founded, if it is not to fail, upon the intellectual and moral solidarity of mankind.
For these reasons, the states parties to this constitution, believing in full and equal opportunities for education for all, in the unrestricted pursuit of objective truth, and in the free exchange of ideas and knowledge, are agreed and determined to develop and to increase the means of communication 'between their peoples and to employ these means for the purposes of mutual understanding and a truer and more perfect knowledge of each other's lives. In consequence whereof they do hereby create the united nations educational, scientific and cultural organization for the purpose of advancing, through the educational, scientific and cultural relations of the peoples of the world, the objectives of international peace and of the common welfare of mankind for which the united nations organization was established and which its charter proclaims.
It is the organization having these aims, and set- up for that purpose that this resolution invites this house of parliament to approve and in which it authorizes participation.
John Horne Blackmore: Before the minister resumes his seat may I ask a question?
Mr. ST. LAURENT:	I shall have no
objection to answering any questions I can when I have concluded.
The constitution was drafted by representatives of forty-four states meeting at an educational and cultural conference in London in November, 1945. At this meeting Canada was represented by a delegation consisting of the Right Hon. Vincent Massey, Principal R. C. Wallace of Queen's university and Mr. Edmond Turcotte, then editor of the Montreal newspaper Le Canada. The delegation's advisers were drawn from the Department of External Affairs, the education branch of the Dominion Bureau of Statistics and the National Research Council.
The London meeting was the culmination of years of study and. thought by various international bodies seeking to promote the international and moral solidarity of mankind, believing, in the words of the preamble to the constitution, that "since wars begin in the minds of men it is in the minds of men that the defences of peace must be constructed."

United Nations-Education

After the last war the importance of intellectual cooperation was appreciated and resulted in the creation of the international institute of intellectual cooperation which, through the generosity of the French government, was given headquarters in Paris. The international bureau of education in Geneva, also established in this period, likewise reflected the recognition of the need for some international cooperation through education. More and more international societies of scholars, scientists and artists began to meet at regular intervals to profit by friendly exchanges of ideas, but the development of totalitarian philosophies certainly impeded the growth and much of what was hoped from that development.
The second world war intensified the feeling that international intellectual cooperation was essential, and as early as September, 1941, Viscount Cecil took the lead in forming the London international assembly. A year later the first conference was held of the allied ministers of education which began to plan for the educational and cultural reconstruction of occupied countries. As this conference studied the problems of educational reconstruction in the occupied countries, it realized that it was necessary to go even further in promoting international cooperation in educational and cultural matters. The same need was realized in the United States where an unofficial education assembly in 1943 drew up plans for an international organization for educational and cultural development. In 1944 the United States proposals were discussed at the conference of allied ministers of education and a draft constitution was produced.
The British government then agreed to invite the allied governments to a conference to discuss this constitution in November, 1945. At the San Francisco meeting general endorsement was given of the resolution presented by France on cultural cooperation, and in the charter of the united nations, article I, section 3, full endorsement was given to the principle of promoting international, cultural and educational cooperation.
The nations at San Francisco, under the charter, also pledged themselves to take joint and separate action for the achievement of this purpose. The approval of the constitution of UNESCO, drafted in London in the fall of 1945, has already been given by seventeen countries. These include the United States of America and the members of the British commonwealth of nations-with the exception so far of Canada-Brazil, China, Denmark, the Dominican republic, France, Iran, Mexico,

Norway, Saudi-Arabia, Syria and Turkey. It is fully expected that the required number of twenty nations will have ratified the constitution before the first formal meeting of UNESCO takes place in Paris in November of this year. In the interval, since the drafting of the constitution, plans for its organization have been developed under the auspices of the executive committee on which Canada has been represented, and by the preparatory commission.
A distinguished British scientist, Doctor Julian Huxley, has been appointed as secretary of UNESCO. The agreement defining the relations of UNESCO with the economic and social council of the united nations has been drawn up and will be considered at the meeting of the united nations in September of this year.
The organization has been given functions which I will not take time to read to the house, but which if I might have the consent of hon. members I would put on Hansard in order to give continuity to my remarks on this resolution.


James Horace King: Has the hon. minister
unanimous consent?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Agreed.
Mr. ST. LAURENT:	The following functions have been given to the organization:
(a)	to collaborate in the work of advancing the mutual knowledge and understanding of peoples, through all means of mass communication and to that end recommend such international agreements as may be necessary to promote the free flow of ideas by word and image;
(b)	to give fresh impulse to popular education and to the spread of culture; by collaboration with members, at their request, in the development of educational activities; by instituting collaboration among the nations to advance the ideal of equality of educational opportunity without regard to race, sex, or any distinctions, economic or social; by suggesting educational methods best suited to prepare the children of the world for responsibilities of freedom.
(c)	to maintain, increase and diffuse knowledge; by assuring the conservation and protection of the world's inheritance of books, works of art and monuments of [DOT] history and science, and recommending to the nations concerned the necessary international conventions; by encouraging cooperation among the nations in all branches of intellectual activity, including the international exchange of persons active in fields of education, science and culture and the exchange of publications, objects of artistic and scientific interest and other materials of information; by initiating methods of international cooperation calculated to give the people of all countries access to the printed and published materials produced by any of them.
In carrying out these functions, UNESCO, must not interfere within the domestic jurisdiction of its members.

United Nations-Education
These purposes are safeguarded by section 3 of article 1, which is in the following terms:
With a view to preserving the independence, integrity and fruitful diversity of the cultures and educational systems of the states members of this organization, the organization is prohibited from intervening in matters which are essentially within their domestic jurisdiction.
The organization includes a general conference, an executive board and a secretariat. The general conference consists of not more than five delegates from each member state and will meet annually to determine the policy of the organization. From the conference may come recommendations and international conventions for the consideration of the member states. Each member state is under obligation to submit such recommendations and conventions to its competent authorities within one year, but is under no obligation whatsoever to acquiesce if it does not think it is wise to do so. The executive board consists of eighteen members elected by the general conference for terms of three years. Members may serve not more than two consecutive terms. It is the duty of the executive board to carry out the programme laid down by the conference and, for this purpose, it is to meet at least twice a year. The elected members of the board are to be drawn from "persons competent in the arts, the humanities, the sciences, education and the diffusion of ideas, and qualified by their experience and capacity to fulfil the administrative and executive duties of the board." The election should also take into account the diversities of cultures and a balanced geographical distribution. The secretariat consists of a director general and such staff as may be required.
Each member state is required to make arrangements in accordance with its particular conditions for linking up principal bodies interested in educational, scientific and cultural matters with the work of the organization. It is suggested that this preferably be done by forming a national commission which would be broadly representative of the government and such bodies. The national commission or some such body is intended to act in an advisory capacity to the government and to delegations to the general conference. It is also intended to be a liaison between various educational and cultural organizations and the government.
Here in Canada we have not yet determined what form of action we will take to bring the bodies interested in educational, scientific and cultural advancement into relationship with this international organization.
63260-275i
In the United States before the adjournment of congress a bill was adopted and signed by the president providing for the setting up in the United States of a national commission comprising one hundred members. Of course we would not have in contemplation anything as elaborate as that, but because of the jurisdiction of the provinces in matters of education we wish to confer with them as well as with the private organizations that exist for the promotion of educational, scientific and cultural development. It is desired to have some Canadian body that will be widely representative of the Canadian public and that will be entirely divorced from any partisan political influence, to make this a matter in which all those in Canada interested in educational, scientific and cultural development will feel that they have a part.
The precise financial relationship between the budget of UNESCO and the budget of the united nations has yet to be defined. A supplementary agreement is to be negotiated for that purpose between the two organizations. The view of the Canadian government is that the united nations should exercise a general supervision over UNESCO budgetary arrangements. It is also its view that caution should be taken in outlining financial commitments until UNESCO has had some experience in securing the cooperation of existing international organizations and societies in the educational, scientific and cultural fields. UNESCO is authorized with the approval of the executive board to receive gifts, bequests and subventions directly from governments, public and private institutions, associations and private persons.
The economic and social council is the liaison agent for the united nations with UNESCO. As mentioned previously, a draft agreement outlining this relationship was signed on June 4, in New York, subject to the action of the united nations in September and to that of the general conference of UNESCO in November. UNESCO will also consult and cooperate with other international organizations which presumably might include the atomic energy commission, the security council, though this is less likely, and the international labour organization.
It is one of those organizations designed -to bring into, cooperative relations those who are interested all over the world in educational, scientific and cultural development and, like the world health organization. It is hoped that this rapprochement between those who are, to paraphrase the words used by the hon. member for Peel (Mr. Graydon), convinced that it. is important for the progress, development, peace and security of the world to regard
United Nations-Education

human values as more important than mere material things, will enable them to work together to bring about- that state of mind where there will be less inquiring "who is my neighbour?" and more of a recognition that all men are of all men each other's neighbours.


John Horne Blackmore: Mr. Speaker, the minister promised to permit me a question before he resumed his seat, when Your Honour was not in the chair.


James Horace King: I would suggest that the hon. member wait his turn.


Angus MacInnis: Mr. Speaker, I think it is really a matter of courtesy to permit the question. It is not very much that the hon. member is asking-leave to ask one question, not to make a speech. It is the usual custom to permit it, and I do not think he should be denied that courtesy.


James Horace King: The hon. member may put his question.


John Horne Blackmore: Can the minister now find in the constitution and read to the house the passage or passages in which is set forth the technique through which the beautiful objectives already set forth are proposed to be achieved through the organization which Canada is now being asked to join?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: That is just what I have been explaining. There are various organs set up by the organization to endeavour through cooperation to further ajid achieve the objectives which have been indicated.


Mr. GREEN:: May I ask the minister if all the member nations of the united nations organization have taken part in the setting up of -this united nations educational, scientific andi cultural organization?
Mr. ST. LAUiRENT: No. If the hon. member will refer to Canada treaty series of 1945, No. 18, he will find on page 32, indicated by the letter X, opposite the names of the countries, those who have signed the final act and those who have signed the constitution of the organization; and unfortunately the representatives of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics have not so far indicated any intention of becoming members of the organization,


Howard Charles Green: The Soviet is taking no part whatever in this organization?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: So far it has not been taking part in this organization.
Mr. DONALD M. FLEMING (Eglinton): Mr. Speaker, in the terms of the present resolution this house is asked to approve the

constitution of the united: nations educational, scientific and cultural organization signed at London on November 16, 1945. I for one trust that the resolution will have the unanimous endorsement of the house.
May I first deal with the point which was raised by the last question. Actually in the paper to which the Minister of Justice and Acting Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. St. Laurent), has just referred, treaty series 1945, No. 18, there are three documents. The first is the final act of the conference which met at London in November last; the second is the constitution of the organization commonly called UNESCO, and the third is the instrument establishing the preparatory commission looking forward to launching the new organization and putting it in running order. All that the house is asked to approve, as I understand it, in this present resolution is the second of these documents, namely the constitution of the organization.
I should like to point out that forty-four nations participated in the conference at London. Russia, as has been mentioned, along with the two Soviet republics which are granted separate international representation-the Ukraine republic and the Byelo-Russian republic-were not represented. Of the forty-four nations which attended the conference, forty-three signed the final act. Only El Salvador refrained from signing the final act. As for the constitution of the organization, thirty-nine nations signed. Those which did not sign were: El Salvador, Australia, France, New Zealand and the. United States of America. As for the third document, the instrument establishing the preparatory commission, forty-one nations signed; the three abstainers were El Salvador, Australia and France. It is a matter of general regret that this conference was not attended by any representatives of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics or the two other Soviet republics to which I have referred, and that there has been no indication from the Soviet union of any intention as yet of participating in this UNESCO organization.
I think that at the outset we should see this organization in its true perspective. It is established, as has been indicated, as one of those specialized agencies which were contemplated when the economic and social council of the united nations organization was brought into being; and it is in measures such as this, the setting up of specialized agencies of this kind, with the aim of ensuring peace by eliminating the ultimate causes of war, that much of the hope of the world for the future lies.

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It is to be seen that in the approach to this agenci*s of this kind, with the aim of ensuring that peace must be constructed on a broad basis, that there must be the broadest possible approach to the problem of establishing sure and permanent peace.
Examining the organization itself, one must, I think, readily assent to the view that the form of the organization in the field assigned to it is or promises to be satisfactory. It is modelled on a form which has been given to other international organizations established within the past year. It has a general conference, which corresponds to the assembly in the case of the united nations organization, and it has an executive board of eighteen and a permanent secretariat. There is a feature in connection with the organization which I think is worthy of mention. It will come into existence when twenty signatory nations ratify the constitution. The admission of members is put on this basis, that members of the united nations organization are automatically entitled to membership in UNESCO; and as to other nations which are not members of the united nations organization, they may be admitted by a two-thirds majority vote of the general conference. That will take care of any nations which are not yet signatories of the charter of the united nations organization.
As to the executive board, it is worthy of note that whereas membership in the general conference is on the basis of nations, when the selection is made of the eighteen members to constitute the general conference, they are selected as persons. There is one qualification in the agreement, to this effect, that no nation may have more than one representative on the executive board except in the case of the nation from which the president of the board is drawn.
The form of the organization promises, I believe, to be satisfactory. What shall we say of the purposes which have been assigned to it? On reading the purposes which have motivated the forty-four nations to sit down together and write this charter, one can say only that they have conceived the purpose of UNESCO in the loftiest terms. They have gone to some of the ultimate causes of war. They have opened with the challenging statement that, "since wars begin in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men that the defences of peace must be constructed"; and in the succeeding statements in reference to the purposes there are certain expressions which ought to be set beside one another by way of contrast. On the one hand we have reference to suspicion and mistrust, the doctrine of the inequality of men and races, as being sources or breeders of
war and the spirit of war. On the other hand we have offered, as antidotes, the democratic principles of the dignity, equality and mutual respect of men, the wide diffusion of culture, the education of humanity for justice and liberty and peace, and finally, the intellectual and moral solidarity of mankind.
At one o'clock the house took recess.
The house resumed at three o'clock.


Mr. FLEMING:: Prior to the one o'clock adjournment I had touched on two of what I conceive to be three important matters affecting the resolution now before the house The first was the .form of organization of the united nations educational, scientific, and cultural organization. The second had to do with its purposes. I should like to read one further passage from the provisions setting forth the general objectives:-
For these reasons, the states parties to this constitution, believing in full and equal opportunities for education for all, in the unrestricted pursuit of objective truth, and in the free exchange of ideas and knowledge, are agreed and determined to develop and to increase the means of communication between their peoples and to employ these means for the purposes of mutual understanding and a truer and more perfect knowledge of each other's lives.
If I may interject there, that statement may appear to be a stumbling block to Russian participation in the UNESCO as constituted at present, because undoubtedly we have no evidence of a free exchange of ideas and knowledge being permitted by the Russian government with people in other parts of the world, or any willingness to increase the means of communication between their people and the other peoples of the world. If the time comes when that barrier is broken down and an exchange of information, ideas and understandings is permitted between the peoples of that country and the peoples of the rest of the world, then indeed we shall have achieved a greater measure of assurance of lasting peace.
Article I of this constitution has this to say:
The purpose of the organization is to contribute to peace and security by promoting among the nations through education, science and culture in order to further universal respect of justice, for the rule of law and for the human rights and fundamental freedoms which are affirmed for the peoples of the world, without distinction of race, sex, language or religion, by the Charter of the United Nations.
There we have a lofty statement of the purposes of this organization, a statement which must have the willing and enthusiastic
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adherence of all enlightened peoples the world over. But, Mr. Speaker, we can have the most perfect form of organization, we can have the loftiest form of statement of the purposes of the organization, and yet see it waste, atrophy and fail. There is one factor which must be added to these two if this organization is to achieve for humanity the objects which it has set before it. That third factor is the will on the part of the governments of the states concerned, yes, and, beyond them, of the peoples in those states, to make this organization really effective for the achievement of the purposes set forth in the constitution. Unless that is made the real purpose on the part of the peoples of the world, and through them of their governments, this constitution will become but a musty document in the Canadian archives. It is a duty which rests on parliament, it is a duty which rests on the people in public life in this country and in other lands, to bring home to the people the fact that this organization is not far removed from contact with reality, that it is not something far removed from their experiences, but something which is vital to them in their hopes for lasting peace and an opportunity to live their lives in security.
What we need is a happy blend of idealism and realism. There will be some who will ask what immediate advantage this offers to Canada, and who will judge Canada's or this parliament's duty of adherence to this organization by the answer to that question. I do not believe any one of us can pretend that this organization offers some immediate special advantage to Canada. If we are to measure our efforts to build lasting peace simply by their immediate fruits, then I am afraid our measures are going to appear very ineffective indeed. We must take a long-range view and measure our progress in relation to long-range objectives.
I affirm with confidence that there is no nation, the world over, which has a greater stake in the peace of the world than has Canada. All of us are well aware of and conscious of the danger that if there should be another world war Canada may well be the battleground. We know that if we are to have hope of progressing and developing this land with all its great natural resources we must have peace and settled international relations. We know all too well the threat to national unity in this country which war has always brought. Therefore I say that this nation has as great a stake in international peace as any nation in the world.
There are some who will say, let us mind our own affairs, the education of our own

people, and let other people look after their own affairs. Are there any who say that in the light of the experience of the world in recent years? If there are, let them cast their minds back to what happened in Germany when Hitler came to power. Almost the first things he did were to abolish trade unions and to seize control of education. What happened? Hon. members well know the way that the educational system of that country was made to serve the purposes of the nazi ideology. Hon. members will recall the way in which the universities were closed, the libraries burnt, the university professors and teachers who were not prepared to inculcate the nazi ideology sent to the concentration camps, and the educational system bent to serve the purposes of the nazis. You remember, Mr. Speaker, that it was not a generation which was uneducated which burst forth upon the world in 1939, but a generation which was educated according to Nazi standards, a generation which like its fathers in 1914 thought that it was carrying a superior brand of culture to inferior peoples elsewhere in Europe and abroad. Yes, Mr. Speaker, you will recall the tramp, tramp of these booted nazi youths marching through Nuremburg in torchlight processions in the early days of the nazi regime shouting out, "Deutschland erwache"! Germany awake! And Germany awoke.
You remember also what happened to the educational institutions in the lands which were Subjugated by the nazis. They were among the first things of which the invaders seized control. They closed the educational institutions or used them to serve the nazi purposes. Anyone who dares to say that the education of the youth of other lands is no concern of Canada while we are training our youth for peace has closed his eyes to what has taken place. While we are training our youth for peace dare we shut our eyes if other nations are training th' ir youth for war? I say, no.
Consider the need in Europe to-day. The need is simply appalling. How can we expect any reconstruction of Europe, any return of Europe to peaceful objectives, unless there is a return of the educational and cultural institutions of that continent? It is good, Mr. Speaker, that the preparatory commission should have set this out as one of its first objectives. It will be found in article 6 of the instrument establishing the commission, as follows:
The commission shall appoint a special technical subcommittee to examine the problems relating to the educational, scientific and cultural needs of the countries devastated by the war, having regard to the information already collected and the work being done by other

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international organizations, and to prepare as complete a conspectus as possible of the extent and nature of the problems for the information of the Organization at the First Session of the Conference.
We Canadians pride ourselves, and rightly, Mr. Speaker, on the contribution this country made to the winning of the war and to humanity through other media such as UNRRA and international loans. What we need to do now is to match that contribution with our contribution to mankind in the educational, scientific and cultural realm. In the educational realm no land in the world attaches greater importance to education than this country; in no land the world over, I suggest. is there a firmer conviction that the opportunities of education must be open to all on an equal footing, and in no country in the world is there a more determined attempt constantly to improve the methods of education. Furthermore, we have happily developed in this country a large number of educationists, leaders in that field, who with this widened opportunity are now capable of making a valued contribution in this realm to other lands as well.
In the field of science this country already possesses a formidable roll of great Canadians who have made vast contributions-and this is a matter of which I think Canadians should be especially proud-on the constructive side of science. Look at the list of the great Canadian scientists, and with very few exceptions .you will see that their contribution has been to the welfare of humanity rather than to developing means of destroying humanity.
In the third place, in regard to the cultural realm, I contend that this country is in a position to make a unique contribution. We have two great cultures in this country, to which have been added the cultures brought to this country by those whom we call new Canadians. We have flourishing here not only' the art, literature, music and humanities imported from other lands; we are also developing original accomplishments in these fields. This nation can measure its greatness and its accomplishments not simply in material things, but also in these things of the spirit.
Yes; we can contribute much to and we can receive much from this organization. It is worthy of note that already UNESCO has received the approbation of distinguished Canadians who are particularly concerned in this field. I quote only one such expression, contained in a newspaper interview given by Doctor Sidney Smith, president of the University of Toronto, appearing in the Globe and Mail of November 23 last. Speaking of UNESCO he said:
This new organ is as essential a prop to world security as any other agency in the united nations organization, economic, political or military.
Then he went on to observe, and I think this is worthy of note, that there was no comparable organization under the old league of nations.


Mr. MARTIN:: Merely intellectual cooperation.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The Secretary of State is quite right in referring to the organization for intellectual cooperation, but I suggest to the house that the aims of that organization were never carried to the length that has been outlined in the charter of the organization now before us.
Let us not forget' that we are not doing something light here to-day in approving this charter. Let us remember that we are assuming obligations. It is obvious that in the first place we have assumed an obligation in the field of education, science and culture, to try to mould our national objectives so they will be in harmony with those set forth in the constitution of UNESCO. That should not be difficult, because our aims in these fields are and always have been peaceful. But we must bear in mind also that there is a further step to be taken in the way of organization. In article YII of the charter we have this provision:
Each member state shall make such arrangements as suit its particular conditions for the purpose of associating its principal bodies interested in educational, scientific and cultural matters with the work of the organization, preferably by the formation of a national commission broadly representative of the government and such bodies.
I do not need to say more than a word on the subject of a national commission for Canada, in view of the remarks made this morning by the acting Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. St. Laurent), but I do offer two observations by way of caution. In the first place, if we are to have a national commission, as I hope we shall, it must be broad and representative in its composition- representative of the best Canadian thought and culture in these kindred fields of education, science and culture. In the second place, we must be very careful that we do not in any way interfere with or trespass upon the autonomy of the provinces in the matter of education. I am sure the house welcomed the assurance given this morning by the acting Secretary of State for External Affairs that no move will be made in this direction without full consultation with the provinces.
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In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, may I say that Canada's place is definitely in this organization, and that Canada must take a prominent, yes, a leading part in the functioning of the organization. We have in this country men of the calibre required to make the executive board of UNESCO a useful and outstanding organization. We have in this country men capable of making a great contribution to the deliberations of the general conference. Because of the part Canada played in the drafting of those provisions in the united nations charter which govern the powers, functions and purposes of the economic and social council, we shall wish to see to it that in UNESCO, so closely related in its objects to the economic and social council, the work is carried forward in complete loyalty to its stated objectives.
It would be a brave man indeed, perhaps only a foolhardy one, who would prophesy success for this organization. It may be difficult for many to see an assurance of success for it until Russia participates and cooperates fully. But the possibility of Russia still standing aside and declining to cooperate or participate, in my humble submission, still is not the greatest danger to the success of the organization. The greatest danger wall be the indifference and apathy of governments, of parliaments and of peoples, the feeling that this sort of organization is altogether too remote from them. The greatest danger will be that parliaments, perhaps this one this afternoon, will say, "When we have ratified this charter we have done all that is expected of us." In ratifying this charter, as I trust parliament will ratify it, we are not fulfilling our obligation. We are rather assuming and acknowledging an obligation which must be fulfilled over the years to come. It is needful for us to realize that to-day we are simply taking the first step, that we are accepting an obligation. Its fulfilment in the years to come will be a high privilege and a great responsibility for all men in public life in this country.


Mr. R. R. KNIGHT (Saskatoon City):: You may be sure, Mr. Speaker, that I listened with great interest to the address of the hon. member for Eglinton (Mr. Fleming). You may be sure that I am very much interested in the resolution, such as it is, presented by the Acting Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) this morning, and a little later I shall try to explain what I mean by "such as it is." I was interested in hearing the preamble read; I believe it included some such words as "it is in the minds of men that wars begin. It is in the minds of men that understanding must be created." Whether or not the first part

of that paragraph is true, I shall not discuss here. I could debate it, I think, at some length. But I do certainly believe it is in the minds of men that understanding must be created.
May I say I was somewhat disappointed in the comments made this morning by the hon. member for Lethbridge (Mr. Black-more), because I felt he was expressing a narrow nationalist point of view. I believe we should share in common with all the people of the world, whether it be in health matters or matters of education, all such knowledge as we have been fortunate enough to get into our possession.
I should like to congratidate the minister upon bringing in this resolution. Many of us have been waiting for it, and for more, for a long time. All the educational bodies in this country have been waiting for it, and in that I include the Canadian Teachers' Federation, the Newfoundland Educational Association, the Association for Adult Education, and the like. It will be welcomed throughout the whole country by those who are interested in education.
It will be noticed that while this is a threefold measure, I am emphasizing the educational feature of it. At this point I might quote from a letter I received from an interested friend, who says:
In view of the activities of the preparatory committee which has been meeting in London recently,^ and in view of the way their action may easily affect Canada, we are very anxious that the Canadian parliament should ratify the UNESCO charter and should set up the enabling bodies which would act with the commissioners, or representatives, who would represent Canada on the UNESCO council. Indeed, a great many of us have been urging this upon the government for a long while.
This resolution is the result of the recommendation of the preparatory conference. The minister read that recommendation this morning. I would draw to his attention the fact that it consisted of two parts, but that in the resolution there is no mention of the second part. That was why I said in the first place that I welcome the resolution, such as it was.
Article VII, to which the hon. member for Eglinton (Mr. Fleming) referred, is as follows:
1.	Each member state shall make such arrangements as suit its particular conditions for the purpose of associating its principal bodies interested in educational, scientific and cultural matters with the work of the organization, preferably by the formation of a national commission broadly representative of the government and such bodies.
2.	National commissions or national cooperating bodies, where they exist, shall act in an advisory capacity to their respective delegations

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to the general conference and to their governments in matters relating to the organization and shall function as agencies of liaison in all matters of interest to it.
3.	The organization may, on the request of a member state, delegate, either temporarily or permanently, a member of its secretariat to serve on the national commission of that state, in order to assist in the development of its work.
In the budget debate I had urged that upon the minister, when I said:
I urge upon the government some immediate action by way of a beginning. In this field there is no minister, no government department to give a lead; some leadership should be arranged forthwith.
When I said that I was referring of course to Canadian leadership.
The national commission should be set up at once as a consultative and advisory body.
As I said, the resolution submitted this morning does not mean much to me, other than a resolution, because it is barren unless it can be persuaded to give birth to such organization as is visualized in article VII- that is, an enabling body, a national body, through which a government can keep in touch with and be advised by those directly interested in education, in science and in culture.
This body fills an absolute need. As I pointed out, there is no minister, and no department. How can such a body be made up? Well, in my opinion, since there are three matters to be dealt with it should be set up in panel form. I believe there is good reason for that, on the basis of arts, science and culture. The first reason is this, that I think predominant among the three is the question of education. The demands of the provinces for representation as such might make that element too large, and they might crowd out the others. I think, too, that the members of each panel, if it were set up in that way, would be specialists in their own particular subjects, and so would be well informed in the subjects about which they were talking, whereas the whole body collectively might not be skilled in one of these particular phases.
The matter of education is that in which for the moment I am most deeply interested. As I see it, this body should Tiave representation from all the major educational organizations in the country, and certainly from the Canadian Teachers' Federation and the C.N.E.A. I would urge that the government consult with those bodies before setting up such a commission.
Again, I think the commission should have wide representation geographically across the country; each province would probably wish to be represented as such. I wonder whether
the question of autonomy in provincial education, which seems to concern so many minds, had anything to do with the minister's not completing the set-up at this particular time. At this point I should like to quote a paragraph from a letter from an interested friend on the subject:
We are rather concerned that the discussion on the UNESCO charter should not be sidetracked by too much emphasis being placed upon the "fact that education in Canada is a prerogative of the provincial governments. It is true that formal education is in the hands of the provincial governments, and probably quite rightly, but there is a very great deal of education being carried on informally in Canada by a very great many bodies that are national in scope. Indeed it seems to be quite likely that those features of the educational movement with which UNESCO will be mostly concerned will be the work of these informal bodies.
I shall not attempt to add anything to that argument, but shall simply say that I am in hearty support of the resolution. Again I qualify that statement by adding the words, for what it is worth. It is at least friendly and benevolent, and I urge the minister to take the steps necessary to give it force and practical value.


Thomas Langton Church: Mr. Speaker, I should like to say a few words about the constitution of this organization. As hon. members know, it was the United States which proposed the San Francisco conference. Russia was against it; Churchill was against it. However it was the idea of the late president of the United States, who did so much for civilization. What happened? The big powers were unrepresented except by members of the cabinet; the leaders were not there. They inserted in the charter of the united nations a veto clause for the big four. Here you have Russia, the United States and Great Britain, and now they have added China and France. They divided the world into large powers, the big five; middle powers and smaller nations. As you know, the whole proceeding down there at San Francisco for security has collapsed, after Moscow, Potsdam, Yalta and Paris. There is no such thing in the world to-day as collective security. When you read over this document, treaty series No. 18, final act, you find on page 32 a list of the big four, the middle powers and the smaller nations. You find also that to-day almost every one of them is violating the world's charter which was drawn up at San Francisco. It has turned out to be nothing but a scrap of paper. If we are to have all this internationalism we will lead the countries to another war. Let us start our internationalism with the British
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empire first. I should like to read two or three quotations from the constitution, the first being:
-that since wars begin in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men that the defences of peace must be constructed.
Those are not original words; they are copied from the theory of Abbe de St. Pierre, who first set these words out in his "Theory (1713) of Collective Security". The main object of this new organization is to change the hearts of men. As I pointed out, a great historian, Professor S. R. Gardiner, commenting on the treaty of Utrecht of 1713, said:
The truth is that states combine readily through fear and very seldom through a desire for the common good, and when Louis XIV ceased to be formidable, each state thought exclusively of its own interests.
That is what each of the smaller and middle states are doing to-day, and the larger powers too. What happened last November when this organization was meeting in London? The big powers had a conference at Moscow and at Yalta. What happened over there? Mr. Attlee was there, Mr. Bevin was there, Mr. Byrnes and Mr. Stalin were there at Moscow. What did they do? They carved up Europe and the result is that the twenty-one nations who met at San Francisco, now at Paris, have no more to do than the man in the moon with the peace division of Europe, because one of the large powers can veto everything they do. The whole organization at San Francisco fell to the ground by this absurd veto insertion, because any one of the big powers can veto all the acts of the others.
What about this change in the hearts of men? No one sees it as yet after 150 years since Abbe de St. Pierre's days. I quote from page 10 of the final act, treaty series 1945, No. 18 united nations conference to establish security, as follows:

that ignorance of each other's ways and lives has been a common cause, throughout the history of mankind, of that suspicion and mistrust between the peoples of the world through which their differences have all too often broken into war;
that the great and terrible war which has now ended was a war made possible by the denial of the democratic principles of the dignity, equality and mutual respect of men, and by the propagation, in their place, through ignorance and prejudice, of the doctrine of the inequality of men and races.
What has been the result of all that? They simply copied the language which was used after the battle of Waterloo in the Concert of Europe when there was talk again about changing the hearts of men. In 1713 the great learned French scholar, Abbe de St. Pierre, first set out the theory of collective security in France. He went to a very able cardinal of
rMr. Church.]
France, Cardinal Fleury, and asked him to consider the scheme. The cardinal replied, "Have you sent out missionaries to turn the hearts of men?" That is what should have been done down in San Francisco. Instead of sending delegates from Canada and the other countries we should have sent missionaries down there to change the hearts of men. Until the hearts of men are changed there will be war as long as time lasts. Nearly seventy-five or eighty years ago Ruskin, one of the greatest authors of his day, and a man of peace, spoken of war; he said exactly what the cardinal said in "His Crown of Olives," to show the folly of all this new form of pacifism.
They had the Concert of Europe after the war of 1815 which was set up along the same lines as this organization, to change the hearts of men for scientific and educational purposes and for the good of humanity. The very same language was used then when they set up the Concert of Europe, composed of Austria, Prussia and Russia, after the battle of Waterloo. Nothing more was heard of collective security until by this new pact made in 1815 Emperor Alexander I of Russia proposed what is known as the Holy Alliance, or the Concert of Europe. Between whom? Between Austria, Prussia and Russia. They were to meet every few years, the contracting parties, to look over the face of Europe and see how peace and security was. What didi it lead to? It led to the great prime minister of Great Britain. George Canning, urging that Britain should get out of Europe and seek a new alliance for a while; and it led by provocation to the United States adopting the Monroe doctrine in 1823. As Lord Castlereagh, the great British foreign minister, wrote to Lord Liverpool in 1815 at the Quai d'Orsay, "It was not without difficulty that we went through the interview with becoming gravity." It was the spiritual force between the Concert of Europe of which Russia, Austria and Prussia were *the protagonists. They were the high contracting parties. It lasted eight years, its most notable achievement being that it provoked the United States into establishing the Monroe doctrine in 1823.
Then followed1 over a century or more, more security pacts in Dumbarton Oaks and the San Francisco conference. But what does it lead to? The hon. member for Eglinton (Mr. Fleming) seems to have great faith in this new pacifist organization, but I have none at all. As has been said, Russia has a treaty with Great Britain for ten years, and France and Britain must have a treaty or understanding immediately if they are to preserve any security for the world on the western front in the future. Unless we can continue the coopera-

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tion that existed during the war between Russia and the United States and Great Britain, then all collective security will be at an end.
What nations were represented at London on November 16, 1945? I will name just two, Greece and Turkey. Greece was against us in the first world war, and so was Turkey. What are they doing to-day? In view of Great Britain abandoning the Suez canal they were said to be trying actively to get an arrangement with Russia behind the scenes. So are several of the other nations seeking alliances, defensive and offensive. The great and small nations are seeking alliances with each other because they feel that only by having alliances can they keep the peace and security part of this organization. Without that, the educational, cultural and scientific oarts of it will come to an end.
There is nothing said in this pact about cooperation and coordination in connection with the atomic bomb. The only league of nations that ever was a success to carry out educational, scientific and cultural work was the British empire. That is the only successful league of nations we have ever had1.
On page 4 of the final act it states:
The following international organizations were also represented by observers:
International labour organization.
That has very little to do with this organization's function, as it is simply done for labour by another organization for labour. Talk about the league of nations and security -it was the league of nations that caused the second W'orld war. It was nothing but pure sham and humbug of the league that led to the second world war. It was the league of nations that led Britain and the United States to disarm. It led Britain to throw away the finest navy, the finest army and the finest air force the world had ever seen, and allowed Hitler to rearm and scrap the Versailles treaty. It led to the second1 world war. And now they are at it again, these pacifist leagues! They have formed a new league organization with a new name and are appearing before even our own external affairs committee. I see represented at London last November the PanAmerican union. We are a member of the British empire. The greatest league of nations that the wmrld ever knew was the British empire; Great Britain and the commonwealth and the dominions, all united together are the hope for peace and for the defence of the world. Britain and the commonwealth had to go it alone in the early years of the war. Russia at that time had a treaty and an alliance with Germany, and for two years she stayed on Germany's side. Then Russia violated her treaty and came over to us. Russia might have lost the war but for Britain and the commonwealth alone for two years fighting Germany.
I say that this sort of organization has been tried before and it has failed for over two centuries. So far as science goes, there may be something in that. I referred to science and the part it has played when the minister's estimates were up last year. I said:
Take modern medicine alone, the child of science, the most promising and brightest-eyed of her family. If it has not mastered, it has so diminished as to rob bodily pain of its terrors.
That is true. But science does not need the help of any pacifist paper organization like this. We have seen what happened about the atomic bomb. Science can get very little help from a paper organization like this, which will lead only to war instead of bringing about peace and security.
Bishop Rennison in one of his articles referred to the tower of Babel and said that we have another tower of Babel in San Francisco, Yalta and others of these pacts which are being made among the nations of the world to-day. He said that they mean nothing unless first there is a change in the hearts of men and we go back to the principles of the original Christian church. Next to the Christian church the British empire has done most for peace and security. I have very little faith in these international bodies. We saw the result of their work in the first world war and between the two wars.
Some of the countries that are listed as members of this organization were on the side of Germany in the last war-Argentine and others listed now. Some of these pacifist organizations have caused disunity within the empire and the abandonment of the Suez canal, which is the jugular vein of the British empire. India is also listed at the back of the book. It is the lifeline of the British empire, just as preferential trade is the bloodstream of the British empire. Some of these countries here did nothing for us in the war at all, and here they are signing their names to the final act, to a paper pact that means nothing. If Canada joins this organization it will be just like the other league. Canada will pay just like she did before, while many of the twenty-one member countries never paid a cent of their allotted contributions to the old league. I would like to see this session closed at the end of next week, but I object to these matters being dealt with in this manner. It is impossible to discuss them properly at the resolution stage, and without their being referred to a committee.
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I saw the first great war coming, and I was a lone voice in this house in urging preparations for it. I urged rearmament all along the line, and trade, defence and migration within the empire. I can tell you this, that a lot of these organizations are not worth a snap of the finger so. far as scientific or educational results are concerned for peace or security or anything else. Education is exclusively a provincial matter. In 1937 and 1938 and 1939 I told the pacifists in this house that war was coming and that we should rearm, but I was not heeded. Then the war came, and after the first world war the league of nations was established, and then we had a second world war, and we are heading into a third world war if we depend on pacifist organizations like this. While I am a strong supporter of science and education, I have very little faith in any of these organizations. The San Francisco conference took place eight months before a presidential election, and resulted in nothing but more chaos and confusion, and caused friction with Russia. What has Russia done? She has taken over Persia and captured the Balkans and Roumania. She has gone in there and established a system of communism in all the Balkan countries. She has got control of eastern and central Europe. I for one have no faith in organizations like this, or the new league of the same old source. I have read the debates in the British house on this proposal and I believe that men of science or educational authorities will have very little to do with this organization. I believe it will do nothing at all for education or science or to prevent war. Talk about pacifism -there are one or two organizations represented in this building to-day-labour and steel strike organizations. How are you going to pacify the world if you cannot pacify labour now in our building? How are you going to change the hearts of men? I was in Hamilton on Sunday and it is like an armed camp at the steel plant. Better start in at Ottawa changing the hearts of men in a domestic strike first. Then you may get somewhere. But these international paper organizations are nothing but a waste of public money.


Mr. F. S. ZAPLITNY (Dauphin):: Mr. Speaker, I consider this one of the most important resolutions to come before the house. It is far-reaching and has great possibilities. I do not think everything that is written into this treaty or into the resolution can be accomplished immediately, but I am inclined to have a little more faith in the possibilities than some of the speakers from whom we have heard so far. If I were asked to summarize the purport of the whole thing 
in a slogan I would call it "Peace through education." The opening sentence of the preamble sums it up very well. The acting Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) has referred to it already. It says that the defences of peace must be constructed in the minds of men.
I cannot agree with the whole sentence, because it says first of all that wars begin in the minds of men.. That is only relatively true. If we were to give it a very wide and general interpretation we might be able to say that that is true; but it fails, it seems to me, to take into consideration certain other causes which are far more important than the mere mental condition of the people. I have too much faith in humanity to believe that people declare war on each other or fight each other merely because they dislike each other. It is quite true that people who do fight must first dislike each other, but it seems to me that the root causes of war go much deeper than mere dislikes or hatreds that are the immediate point from which people begin to fight. I am inclined to think that there are certain considerations such as the following which have not been faced up to in this declaration.
For example, they do not seem to take into consideration the clash of economic interests. We must be realistic as well as idealistic,-to paraphrase what the hon. member to my right (Mr. Fleming) said'-and realize that so long as we talk in terms of international competition-and we had an example of that yesterday, listening to one of the speeches on export trade, about competing with our neighbour nations for the markets or the resources of the world-we are going in the direction of conflict. I think we must approach it from the point of view of cooperating with other nations in sharing the wealth of the world, realizing that we have now reached the point where it can be said definitely that there is enough for all. That may not have been true a hundred years ago. It certainly can be said to-day that, with the power of production which the world possesses, there is enough for all if it is shared in cooperation; but if it is put on the basis of competing for it, we shall do what we have done before, we shall waste and destroy it, and everyone will be hungry in the end.
Again, there is the consideration of the economic exploitation of man by man. This is a realistic consideration, and one which we must face. A moment ago the hon. member for Broadview (Mr. Church) brought up that point in a different way when he remarked that one of the cities in this country has

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reached a condition where it is practically an armed camp. Why? Is it because there is not enough food, clothing and shelter in this country to go round? Is it that they are fighting over something -which all cannot have? It is not that, but because there are in our economic system people-whom I do not blame individually, because they are the product of the system which has been built up-who have more economic power and have concentrated more wealth in their hands than they are willing to allow their fellow men to possess. That exploitation causes men to envy and hate each other and in the long run leads to conflict.
Then there is the contraction of the world community. We have good examples of that all around us. Every time we see the news on the screen we are struck by the fact that the world seems to be continually getting smaller. To-day distance does not count for what it did years ago; and the bringing together, sometimes the sudden bringing together, of the peoples of the world by our modern means of communication creates certain types of friction which must be overcome before we can say that "war begins in the minds of men."
Perhaps the greatest of all is the failure of nations so far to make adjustments in their social and economic philosophies and systems to keep up with the advance of science and with technological development. I do not think anyone will disagree when I say that socially and economically we have not kept up with the times. We have found it possible through scientific skill to develop certain processes and inventions and certain ways of doing things which were not dreamed of a century ago, but in our economic and social thinking we have not advanced at the same rate.
With that inf induction I want to say that I do have faith and hope that this organization will amount to something more than is possible at the present time. In article I, under the heading "Purposes and functions", we find something which it seems to me could have been more properly divided into three parts, because it sets out the purpose of the organization, the reason for those purposes, and also the method. For example, the purpose is, "to contribute to peace and security". There is no quarrel as 'o the desirability of that. The reason, it goes on to say, is "to further universal respect of justice, for the rule of law and for the human rights and fundamental freedoms which are affirmed for the peoples of the world, without distinction of race, sex, language or religion, by the charter of the united nations." Also very
desirable, very elevated. We come to the third part, the method by which this is to be attained, namely, "by promoting collaboration among the nations through education, science and culture." It is this part of article I which I want to question. I am not altogether sure that this constitution provides, or at any rate adequately provides, for that method, because if we turn to the third paragraph of article I we find this clause:
The organization is prohibited from intervening in matters which are essentially within their domestic jurisdiction.
I do not want it to appear as though I was in favour of interfering with anyone's domestic matters, whether provincial or national, but I do say that if we are to have education for peace, and if it is to be effective, it must be universal. I join with the hon. member for Eglinton (Mr. Fleming) in his deep regret that the Soviet union and the republics associated with it have not seen fit so far to become participants in this organization, because I believe that both the Soviet union and the countries which are now in the organization would gain much and lose nothing by standing together and working out ideas on world affairs. If education for peace is to be effective, it must be universal; it cannot be limited. We shall have to work towards that objective, because if we do not, I am afraid that what the hon. member for Broadview said will be only too true, that it will be a paper organization and nothing more.
What do I mean by "universal"? I do not mean that through the united nations organization full power and jurisdiction will be had over education in every school of the world, but that through that organization there must, be power to present at least a minimum programme. It would be by its nature very limited in scope, because it would have to be the most that all could agree upon, and that would be precious little at this time. But if we can find even a modicum of education for peace on which all nations can agree, and then give the united nations organization the power to see that this type of education is available in every school in the world, we shall have made a step towards peace. If we do not do that, I fear we shall not have accomplished anything.
Those who fear that this interference with the domestic education of nations will be a serious contravention of our sovereignty will find, if they turn to the powers given to the security council, that that council under the united nations organization is empowered to interfere physically in the affairs of nations
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when there is a threat of war. Surely, by the same logic and reasoning, if it is necessary to give powers to the security council to interfere physically in the affairs of nations in order to avoid the threat of war, it is just as reasonable to say that we should give to UNESCO or the united nations enough power to lay the foundations of peace in the first place, in order that it may not be necessary for the security council to interfere with physical force in order to put down aggression when it has already raised its head. I think that is fundamental; and if we are going to get into this we might as well get into it and be serious about it. I would have no hesitation in giving UNESCO sufficient power to enable it to present a minimum .programme of education for peace in every school room of the world. A great deal more could be said about it, but most of these considerations have been pointed out by other hon. members.
Listening to the hon. member from Lethbridge I. could not help but agree with him to this extent, that if this organization is to be successful it must be practical and it must begin at home. Sometimes I am a little surprised at how quick and ready we are to sign our names to and endorse great and high sounding objectives provided it is something that we shall not have to do. It is not so long since I had the honour of introducing a resolution to provide for equality of education in Canada. I mention that merely because these very -words are used in one of the objectives of this organization; not for Canada only but for all the people of the world. Although my resolution received some sympathetic consideration on this side of the house, it was given none on the other side. I am a little concerned as to how we, who are not willing to extend equality of opportunity and education to our own citizens, are to undertake to do it for all the peoples of the world. I hope that we shall begin at home. But I do not agree with the hon. member for Lethbridge when he says that our philosophy has to be one of minding our own business. I have no objection to anyone minding his own business provided that we as a nation could mind our business within the borders of our own country. If that were possible I should be glad to follow his advice, but in our has to be one of minding our own business, seems to be scattered all over the world. The world seems to have arrived at the stage where you cannot draw a boundary line and say, up to here is indeed my business and from here on it is not. It simply does not work that way. We shall have to make up our minds whether we are going to cooperate with other nations in taking part in organizations of
 .
this kind, in the hope that through collective action we may preserve peace, or whether we are going to hide our heads in the sand in the hope that when the avalanche comes it will be outside our own particular area.


Mr. WILLIAM IRVINE (Cariboo):: I shall not take more than just a few minutes of the time of the house. I really want to register my objection to certain phases of the agreement now before us.
Let me say at the outset that I am in hearty agreement with every move which will bring the nations together in cooperation to do anything which is necessary to be done for human good. I agree that a great deal may be accomplished by cooperation in the way of extending education, good will, science and so forth. To that extent I am in favour of the proposal now before us. But I think it is unfortunate that such good objectives should have been postulated on what is to me an absurdity and an error, an error biologically, historically, scientifically or in any way you wish to take it. And that error is the one upon which most hon. members who have supported this agreement have pinned their faith, namely, that since wars begin in the minds of men it is in the minds of men that the defence of peace must be constructed. I say that that is simply a false philosophy; it is an assertion for the truth of which there is no evidence in history or in science. Apparently it is only because we can swallow that error that this parliament and this nation and others can proceed with policies which are fast developing the next war, while we indulge in verbal effusions of this kind about trying to prevent it.
So long as struggle is the means by which men and nations exist, nations will fight. The human family had been fighting for millions of years before it had any mind at all-some of them have not very much yet-and to assume that it was their minds which made them fight is nothing but an absurdity. I think it is just hypocritical for us to hold to lofty verbal peace objectives, as we are doing here if we subscribe to this agreement, while we have already committed this nation to the conflict method of existence. To-day this nation stands for free private enterprise, which is the conflict system, the tooth and claw method, the struggle for existence, the mere animalism and junglism of history.


Mr. MUTCH:: Get out of the jungle.


William Irvine: My hon. friend has not got out of it yet. We have committed ourselves to that. That is what this nation stands for, and if every other nation stands for it there

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is going to be conflict. I do not care what kind of minds people have, nor do I care what is in them, if there is a scarcity of anything in any nation in a world of conflict, where only by conflict they can exist, then war will most certainly come. Therefore the very basis of any hope of the future peace of the world must be in so arranging the essentials of our human life on a cooperative basis that man will be able to live without killing somebody else in order to do it. No amount of education, whatever that education may be, will remove the facts. You may educate this nation, if that be possible, to believe that the stars began in the human mind, that the moon is merely the creation of the human mind, and then say if you could abolish that idea in the human mind you would abolish the moon and the stars; but you will not. It may be possible to induce the human mind to think it is just man's mind that wants to fight and make war. No doubt the desire to fight can be stimulated by education when the cause for war is already operating, but if the real cause is not there, then man will not fight..
The only alternative to a conflict economy is a cooperative economy, and that is the thing which is lacking. It has been deplored that Russia has not joined this organization. There is enough nonsense in the first sentence to prevent Russia from joining, and it should prevent us from joining if it was taken seriously, which I hope we shall not do.
If we are to further education and science in the international field, we must do more than merely pass resolutions. I have already pointed out what is to me a hypocritical position when we further an economy which makes war inevitable and pass or endorse agreements which stand for the abolition of it. Education, scientific research and so forth have values, great values and they, as I said at the outset, may be furthered by international action. To the extent that they may be furthered I am for this agreement. But there is no use in passing this even for that purpose unless the government will commit itself to carry out its share of the bargain. That means it has to set up the machinery necessary to further education and science on the international plane. So far as I can recall, in his remarks the minister did not commit the government to the immediate carrying out of articles 4 and 8 of the agreement, for instance, as we have them here. Unless that is done, nothing will be done. Article 4 provides:
The general conference shall consist of the representatives of the states members of the organization. The government of each member state shall appoint not more than five delegates,
who shall be selected after consultation with the national commission, if established, or with educational, scientific, and cultural bodies.
I should like to press the minister to give this parliament the assurance that on the endorsation of this document the government will take the necessary steps immediately to fulfil its obligations as contained in article 4, and carry them out according to articles 7 and 8.


Gordon Graydon: I was very much interested in the references to the preamble of the constitution, by the last two speakers in particular, who took some exception to it. They devoted considerable time-* and perhaps they are right-in, an endeavour to refute the argument that "since wars begin in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men that the defences of peace must be constructed". I was a little surprised to find that some of the arguments against the inclusion of that language, to which I think one hon. gentleman referred as nonsense, came from a speech of the socialist Prime Minister of Great Britain, who in the course of his remarks at the plenary session of the united nations educational, scientific and cultural organization used exactly those words: "Wars begin in the minds of men." Apparently the influence of the Prime Minister of Great Britain was felt so strongly at the meeting which finally drew up the constitution that those words were placed in the very beginning of the preamble to which hon. gentlemen to my left have taken exception. I am not in a position particularly to discuss that aspect of it, but I thought perhaps this should be put on the record to show there are divergent views with respect to the matter.
I want to point out just one or two things in connection with the constitution that is before us, and one thing that strikes me as being perhaps the weak link in the whole UNESCO structure. That is the fact that three very important and powerful members of the united nations not only did not participate in the final signing of the constitution, as hon. gentlemen on both sides of the house have pointed out, but as far as my information goes did not even accept the invitation to attend the meetings of the united nations conference for the establishment of an educational, scientific and cultural organization. Those three nations are the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, the Ukraine and ByeloRussia.
Whatever may be said with respect to the necessity for organizations of this kind, I do not rise this afternoon for the purpose of
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throwing cold water upon any plan which in the final analysis may make some contribution to world peace and international security. I take the view that as a Canadian parliament we cannot put ourselves in the position of placing obstacles in the way of {setter international understanding. It may be that many of these organizations have their weaknesses. I believe they have, and I think that is so right fom the top international organization down to and including some of its lesser component parts. Nevertheless we have to consider international problems from a much wider viewpoint. I have always felt, and I think it is the opinion of this house, that San Francisco, the general assembly, the security council, the economic and social council and the other organizations connected with UNO at least go this far; at least they provide a table under which the nations of the world may put their fact and talk things over instead of shouldering rifles and going to war to fight it out. Surely that is a factor we must not overlook in deciding whether to play our part in the various organizations set up for the purpose of achieving the objective of international peace and security. While this organization itself has obvious weaknesses, nevertheless I think we can still say it is a step in the right direction, even if it is but a halting step; and we must take that halting step in the interests of world peace.
One of the problems the nations of the world face to-day is that of seeing that the major powers, particularly, find some basis for collaboration. It is not enough to bring together dozens of little powers throughout the world and have them collaborate. They all have their Tights, and no one would be more anxious to champion those rights than I. But when one appreciates that something over eighty-five per cent of the war potential of the world, the power to wage war, rests in the hands of three nations, then I think one gets the picture in proper perspective and sees what we have to do in order to achieve a system of world security for the days that lie ahead. The weakness of this organization will 'be admitted, I am sure, even by those who are its greatest proponents and. advocates. When one of those three great powers is out of the organization, together with two republics which are within its geographical boundary, we start this race with only one leg, and we have something less than a proper launching of an organization of the kind. I think the weakness of the old league of nations arose from a similar situation, because one of the great powers was unable to see its way clear to play the full part it normally would play in

any great association of powers. But in any of these organizations where one of the major powers decides to stay out, and not only does not sign but does not attend and does not subscribe to the purposes and objectives of the organization, it will be seen at once where the weakness of such organizations must lie.
One of the great means of education in the world to-day is the press. Whatever weaknesses some people may think it has, let me say that without a free press throughout the world it is difficult to have democracy functioning as it should. If we were to take the free press from Canada, inside of six months we would not have an effective democratic system functioning. Those avenues for the dissemination of information, the press and the radio, and other means of communication, are the means of keeping together the thoughts of the people of our nation, and of correlating their efforts with those who sit in parliaments or on other representative bodies. I think there is little use at the moment in holding out more than the laudable objective of world government. I am one who hopes it may come. But I believe the basis of it must be laid on the foundation of a free and untrammelled press and radio throughout the world. These are the important components in the success of any kind of government; surely we cannot afford to ignore them in the formation of a world government.
In UNESCO we find a move to correlate, even to form a clearing house for and to advance and promote where we can, the educational, scientific and cultural talents of various nations. It is an effort to make a world in which we can live as good neighbours, and a medium through which we can impart to our neighbours any influence we may have or contribution we can make in these fields, while at the same time receiving from them the advantage of types of education and other knowledge more familiar to them.
The weakness of the organization in my view-and I am sure the minister will be the first to agree with me-is that for some reason, whatever it may be, a great and major power in the world has seen fit not to endorse the principle of or to participate in the UNESCO organization.
In our approach to international problems I believe our people ought to understand that we should not place these new organizations and new movements on a pedestal so high that, once these agreements are on paper, the people may think that peace has been achieved once and for all. The objectives of peace are not achieved simply by what is written on

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paper. The answer to this is found in what the great powers will do in relation to this subject. The answer to peace or war depends largely, if not altogether, not necessarily upon the education of the w'orld at large, but rather upon the ability and capacity and willingness -this last being the most important-of the three major powers to get along together in peace and harmony in the days which lie ahead. That, in a nutshell, is the problem of world peace. It seems to me we can put it boldly and concisely by saying that if the big powers stick together we shall have peace and, conversely, if they do not, anything may happen.
This is why I have risen this afternoon to say a word about this organization which does not embrace all of the three powers to which I have referred. I support the position taken by the government in asking parliament to accept the constitution. I believe it is a step in the right direction, but at the same time I am pointing out the definite weaknesses inherent in that constitution.


Mr. NORMAN JAQUES (Wetaskiwin):: Mr. Speaker, I had not intended saying anything, but I am moved to do so from what I have heard in the last half-hour I have been in the house.
This resolution deals with the establishment of an educational, scientific and cultural organization. I ask myself this question: to what example of the past are we to look for future educational, scientific and cultural standards? Are we to take the so-called education which in fact has been pure propaganda not only in this country but in Great Britain and the United States? Is the propaganda which has poured from the United States in the last several years to be the basis of the world's cultural education?
Who is to say what the world is to be taught? In this connection I would refer to a man whose name has been mentioned recently in the house. I refer to Doctor Chisholm, who has publicly denied the existence of right and wrong, who has openly sneered at Christianity and particularly at our Christmas. Having done that he is considered a great man and has been given one of the leading positions in a world organization. I wonder if he had sneered at a religious festival such as the Passover whether he would have been given that world job. I rather think not. There would have been no reward for him then. Evidently, however, he knew that a passport to one of these world jobs is to sneer at Christianity. That seems to be the fashion these days, and if one does not do it one is either a fascist or anti-Semitic.
In the matter of bringing peace through the united nations, only yesterday I referred to the treatment of Argentina at San Francisco. Was that the way to promote peace in the world? I was glad to hear the Speaker read out a message of felicitation from the Argentine parliament a few minutes after I made that protest, and we replied to it in like manner.	,
Then there is Spain. The very people who are behind all this international stuff are those who are demanding another civil war in Spain. For what purpose? To tear down one dictator in order to set up another. There is no suggestion that the Spanish people should be allowed to choose their own government. The whole agitation behind this promotion of another war in Spain is communistic, and nothing else.
Who are these people who presume to teach the world what its moral and cultural behaviour in the future should be? What is their record? What have they ever said or done to justify our putting trust in them for the future cultural progress of the world? Who are these self-styled educationalists? I have in my hand a copy of the report of the committee of congress on un-American activities, issued by the United States government printing office, Washington, in 1946. Let me give the house a sample of this cultural education. I should like to quote from a document which was issued by the war department of the United States during the war for the education of the armed forces. The report reads:
Some elements in the war department erred seriously when they tried to force down the throats of American soldier's Army Talk- Orientation Fact Sheet No. 64, War Department, Washington, D.C., March 24, 4945, ''Restricted." This document was circulated to instructors and was not intended for direct reading by the enlisted men.
I shall not read all of it, but I want to make a few points. It continues:
There is a long discussion concerning the question, "How can we identify native American fascists at work." To summarize this discussion it is sufficient to say that the war department sought to teach that any person who claimed to be any one or all of the following was a fascist, or was likely to become a fascist very shortly: "400 per cent American, anti-Jew, antinegro, anti-labour, anti-foreign born, antiCatholic."
Then it goes on to say:
One of the most astonishing themes in this eight-page document of Red poison is the suggestion that any native-born person who claims to be 100 per cent American is either a fascist or is likely to become one very shortly. In the entire discussion, occupying eight closely printed pages, there is not one word against communism or Soviet military dictatorship. On the con-
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trary, the last two pages are filled with material designed to transmit propaganda favourable to communism and military dictatorship.
This so-called indoctrination course was, and will remain as, one of the dirtiest blots on the history of the war department. We cannot overlook the fact that certain persons of authority, and even at the very top, knew that such an educational programme was in progress, and very little was done to correct the situation.
Is that the sort of teaching that is considered suitable for the cultural advancement of the world? So far as I have been able to learn, all these internationalists are totali-tarians at heart, and it is they who are behind this concentration of the control of health, education and everything else.


Mr. STEWART (Winnipeg North):: Hear, hear!


Norman Jaques: "Hear, hear", says somebody. Who is that internationalist? I have a pretty good idea. Who does the hon. member think constitutes this international authority? We are not in Moscow or Jerusalem. I would advise the hon. member that Jerusalem would be a good place for him to go. In my opinion all this centralization of control, first of all in the dominion and then in the world, is the greatest threat that the world faces to-day. We did not fight the war to bring about a world- dictatorship or a world government. As I understood it, we fought the war to destroy the man who had that very idea. If that is what we wanted to do then I cannot see why we wasted all the blood and treasure we did in putting down one dictatorship only to set up another.
I know very well that anything I say will not stop the government. As I said the other day, there is no question about the working partnership between the C.C.F. group and the Liberal party and also with the communist party and the Labour Progressive party. They are all going the same way. All the experts of the Liberal government were trained in the socialist London school of economics.
I cannot endorse this idea at all. Not that it will have much effect, but it will give me some satisfaction to register the strongest possible objection to this and all such schemes. If every country would mind its own business then there would be some hope of peace in the world. People say that war is bom in the minds of the people; if so, it is born in the minds of those who preach that there is no such thing as right or wrong. I do not know what is going to come out of these schemes but more evil, leading to more bloodshed and more war.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. J. A. MacKINNON (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Yesterday the hon. member for Calgary West (Mr. Smith) asked me a question with regard to the export of flour from Lethbridge, Alberta, to Ecuador, and I told him I would give him an answer later.
Canada has a number of flour markets which she has traditionally served. Ecuador is one. In 1935 we shipped 12,773 barrels; in 1936, 17,511 barrels, and in 1937, 10,431 barrels. In keeping with the general policy of sending as much foodstuffs as possible to the United Kingdom, UNRRA, and the distressed areas, shipments to other markets have been drastically reduced. Thus, in 1945 we shipped only 5,597 barrels to Ecuador and shipments so far this year have been at approximately the same rate. The aggregate of shipments to South and Central America is insignificant in relation to the total wheat and flour production; but distribution to a few old customers and some new ones, it is hoped, will make possible the holding of existing markets and gaining a small foothold in some new ones that will be of inestimable value to the whole of Canada in the future. Furthermore, if we were to stop shipments altogether, the people of Ecuador would simply be driven to other sources of supply-it would not increase the world supply-and Canada would simply be taking on a larger share of relief shipments, while other countries took the commercial business that has future prospects.
Personally I welcome the information that Alberta mills are getting into this new export field.



INQUIRY AS TO INCREASE IN DOMESTIC QUOTA

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G, K. FRASER (Peterborough West): Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance. Since shipping space for flour is very much limited at the present time and the future not too bright, and since this year's wheat harvest is now moving and the flour mills in Canada are operating at full capacity, will the government consider increasing the present domestic flour quota so that Canadian bakers can take care of the present bread shortage and the flour mills be kept going to normal capacity?
Mr. R. W. MAYHEW (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance):: The
present quota on flour restricts only the sale

C.N.R.-Guarantee oj Securities
of flour for domestic consumption. It does not curtail the millers' production and sale of flour. There is a demand abroad for all the flour that Canadian mills can possibly produce. I will bring my hon. friend's question to the attention of the minister. To carry out his suggestion would involve a change in government policy. I am sure that the people in Canada would regret any action taken that would restore to last year's consumption the ten per cent by which it was reduced some time ago, particularly in these days when Great Britain has had to ration still further bread in that country.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The reason I asked the
question was that there is not sufficient shipping space available at the present time and the flour mills have had their shipping permits cancelled.



RURAL MAIL


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. II. O. WHITE (Middlesex East): Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Postmaster General. In view of notices being forwarded to rural mail carriers in Middlesex county that the wartime bonus will be discontinued on February 15, 1947, will the minister inform the house of the position of these and other carriers with respect to bonus? Second, will this action not result, in the final analysis, in higher costs to the Post Office Department? We all realize that the rural mail carriers are underpaid.
Hon. ERNEST BERTRAND (Postmaster General):: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman
was good enough to send me notice of his question. Of course everybody knows that the war bonus can last only so long as there is a law giving us authority to pay it. The war bonus was supposed to terminate on December 31 next. I think it is well understood that if as and when the emergency bill is passed the government will pay the bonus for sixty days only after the commencement of the next session. We have asked our officials to cancel these notices because we want to continue the war bonus until the end of the sixty days after the commencement of the next session. In the meantime we are trying to find a way to correct the situation and renew these contracts so that the carriers will receive what they are now receiving, including the bonus.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS


[Stage Direction]
Mr. R. W. MAYHEW (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance) moved the second reading of bill No. 346, to authorize the provision of moneys to meet certain capital expenditures made and capital indebtedness incurred by the Canadian National Railways system during the calendar year 1946, and to authorized the guarantee by His Majesty of certain securities to be issued by the Canadian National Railway Company.
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Golding in the chair.
On section 1-Short title.
Mr. JACKMAN:: One of the items included in this budget of the Canadian National Railways is $7,000,000 for the acquisition of the railway under lease at the present time to the Canadian National Railways in Manitoba. While it might appear on the surface that there is a net gain to the Canadian National Railways and, therefore, to the government in taking over that railway, I should like to ask the minister about a certain aspect of it.
It appears that the annual rental of this property is $300,000 and that the lease continues for the unexpired portion of 999 years. If this deal is made by the payment of $7,000,000 to the lessor company there would be an outlay at three per cent, which would be a fair rate, of $210,000, making an apparent saving of 890,000 per annum to the Canadian National railway system. But may I suggest to the minister that if the lessor railway which receives the $300,000 from the Canadian National Railways is subject to tax at the ordinary corporation rate of forty per cent, the tax would be $120,000, and while the Canadian National Railways would not get that money, the government would, which for the purposes of the argument is the same thing. That would mean a net out-of-pocket expense to the people of Canada of $300,000, less $120,000, or $180,000, which would be considerably less than the $210,000, which represents the service charge at three per cent on the proposed cost or outlay of $7,000,000. Would the minister be good enough to answer that question? May I also say at the same time that the leader of the C.C.F. party, who is not very well versed in financial matters, judging from-


Mr. CASTLEDEN:: That is only a matter of opinion.

C.N.R.-Guarantee of Securities


Harry Rutherford Jackman: I am very glad to have the hon. member suggest that it is a matter of opinion, because I think the facts which I shall put before the committee will clarify the statement I made. As I suggested, the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar is not very well versed in some of these matters. He suggested that payment of rental for a property over a period of 999 years would amount to some $85 or $86 million, and that this very nearly insulted the intelligence of parliament. I was not so much surprised at that, but I was a little surprised and shocked when I heard the Minister of Transport corroborate those remarks and say it was quite true that the capitalization of these rental payments over the long unexpiredi period of the lease, to quote his words, "almost insults the intelligence of parliament." If he feels that money is barren and, therefore, cannot breed, which was the theory held by some economists five or six centuries ago, I would suggest to him that something should be done, or why is he not doing something, about the perpetual bonds which still exist on the Canadian National system? I would direct his attention to page 21 of the annual report of the Canadian National Railways, where the funded debt is set out in detail, and we find that some $8-3 million of securities of the system are guaranteed by the dominion government and are perpetual. Then on page 22 there is another S5-7 million of funded debt of the system which has no maturity and is perpetual. If the theory of the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar and of the minister, who concurs in it so readily, is true, that it is a colossal mistake to pay an annual service charge rather than to pay an out-of-pocket expense, the interest charges on which, I may say, will have to be met annually until the principal is repaid, how does he justify the continuance of these perpetual securities on the Canadian National system?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: I am sorry that the hon. member for Rosedale was not in the house when the bill having to do with the purchase of the Manitoba railway was discussed, because if he had been here he could then have given us the benefit of his remarks and, perhaps, have had it out with the leader of the C.C.F. party. The acquisition of the Manitoba railway by the Canadian National railways is, I submit to the committee, as I did before, an excellent thing from the financial point of view. The hon. member who has just spoken is a member also of the committee on railways and shipping. He therefore had an opportunity of examining the president of the Canadian National Railways

on this very subject. He has, as is his right, the opportunity now of asking questions on it. One has only to go back to the discussion which took place when the bill was being considered to realize that there is a saving not only to the Canadian National Railways but to this country of $90,000 by the acquisition of that road. I think the only matter which seems to have bothered the hon. gentleman, both in committee and here, is the question of taxation, as to whether the country would stand to lose from the fact that this revenue of $300,000 a year by way of rental was taxable to the federal government. I told the hon. gentleman in committee that I would obtain from the Minister of National Revenue a statement on it. When the bill with reference to the purchase of the Manitoba railway was discussed in committee I had the statement. I have not it now before me, but the gist of it is that there is no loss to the Department of National Revenue and to the country from the point of view of taxation. The reasons given were outlined in that letter, and I would be glad to show it to the hon. gentleman at any time he cares to see it.
The hon. member refers to the question of perpetual bonds as it is set out on page 21 of the annual report of the Canadian National Railways, and asks why it is that the minister does not do something about it. All I can tell him is this, that the bonds are perpetual and secured, and he, being a financier of great experience, will realize, I am sure, that there is not a great deal that the house or the minister can do about that.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: I am not asking the minister why he does not do something about it from the point of view of bettering the position of the railway or the country. But I find at page 2818 of Hansard where the minister said as follows:
The hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar raised a pertinent point when he said that this almost insults the intelligence of parliament.
Namely, paying out an annual rental which, if you multiply it over the period of 999 years, amounts to a colossal sum.


The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Golding) :: Order. It is not in order to refer to what took place in a previous debate this session.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: I am through referring to it, sir, and I only did so to be accurate in my statement; I would not care to misquote the minister. If the country is very much worse off because a lease is for 999 years and it must pay the annual rental, how much worse off must the country be if there is no maturity

C.N.R.-Guarantee of Securities
whatever, if it is ad infinitum as being an uncallable security of the kind I have mentioned? I am merely pointing this out as a fallacy in the argument of the leader of the C.C.F. which was endorsed by the minister himself.


Lionel Chevrier: I have to interrupt the hon. gentleman on that point. As the chairman says, this is not in order, but the hon. member has placed a statement on record, and I am sure I cannot allow him to put into my mouth words which were not stated or at least are not in point having regard to the context. The discussion at the time which was had between myself and the leader of the C.C.F. party had to do with the improvidence of 999 year leases; and I repeat now what I said then, that leases of that kind are improvident to a degree, and that I do not think leases for 999 years would be entered into to-day. I was asked the question whether I had drawn. any myself or whether, again, it had been the practice of lawyers to enter into them on behalf of clients, and I said that I knew of some but that there were none that I had drawn up. That discussion had to do with the agreements and not with the financial aspect of the bill that was under consideration.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: All I am suggesting-


William Henry Golding: Order. I hope the hon. member will not refer to speeches which have already been made in this house. It is entirely out of order. It only repeats what has taken place before, and prevents progress being made.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Mr. Chairman, the opinion expressed by the minister then was that it was improvident tc make a lease for 999 years. What I am suggesting is that in the capital structure of the Canadian National Railway system, for which we are now appropriating money, it is a fact that the system is losing money, which is tantamount to property, not for 999 years but in perpetuity. If there were arguments against leasing for the lesser period, surely there are equally strong, if not stronger, arguments against leasing without any maturity whatsoever.


George Hugh Castleden: That is agreed.


Lionel Chevrier: If my hon. friend will look at page 21 of the annual report he will see that the debentures to which he refers were issued in 1858, 1876 and 1883. Certainly they are not for 999 years.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: I cannot allow the minister to refute my argument as unsound1. I do not care when these perpetuals were issued; they are issued in perpetuity; but if the minister believes that his argument or the argument of the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar is sound, then he can buy in these perpetuals because people are quite willing to sell them at a fairly reasonable premium over the par value. I am suggesting that the argument put forward is unsound, and I contend that it is unsound.


Thomas Langton Church: As a real public ownership man the bill is a surprise to me in some ways. The Canadian National railway organization represents a consolidation of a number of systems, subsidiaries and other agencies on land, on the sea and in the air, and the hotel system. Many other subsidiaries were consolidated. In reality the system was not a real public ownership organization. It was founded on the mistakes made all over the country by private ownership in a financial way and the road was taken over by the government. There was a survey made and a report on railways brought forward in 1917 by the Drayton-Acworth report-regarding a method of financing the system, and as to guarantees which have become fabulous and a heavy drain on the country in the way of federal subsidies. The survey was made in 1917, and the Drayton-Acworth report issued on over capitalization of 40,000 miles of single track roads of this system and also 42,000 miles of single track roads of the other efficient privately owned system. The heavy overcapitalization laid a severe debt for the Canadian National on this country. Then the former separate Canadian National parts came to the provinces with this method of financing of capital and asked for guarantees from the provinces. Sections 1 and 2 should be taken together since they are both the same thing.
I wish to point out that some of these old securities go back to 1931. The marginal notes and headlines are part of the bill. You have to read the marginal notes as well as the headlines and sections of the bill. The second section of the bill refers to $7,000,000 for acquisition of the Manitoba railway. That road is as old as the hills. Then there is a section which gives the Minister of Finance power to make temporary loans, such as notes, bonds, loans, debentures, for capital expenditures, in regard to current indebtedness. In my opinion, such finance has been attacked severely in the report to which I refer. The present company has done well during the war. It gave good service, but the employees are not treated in the way that they should be. You and I, Mr. Chairman, travel on the system, and we know that some of these old, reliable employees have to work sixteen, seventeen and eighteen hours a day, moving from
43S0

C.N.R.-Guarantee oj Securities
Halifax the forces returning home from Europe. They should receive a bonus or some allowance for war work. It is not ownership such as the provincial hydro and the municipal hydro systems which treat their employees in a fair way for overtime and give them better labour conditions, such as train crews should have in demobilization.
This bill should have been considered by the select committee on railway and shipping or by some other committee on finances. It is a legal bill as well. Bill No. 346 consolidates the method of financing and it refers to $22,000,000. This amount should have been paid out of earnings. In a system like this, some provision should be made for paying out of earnings a lot of this for operating renewals on terminals, equipment, overhauling of cars and things of that kind, of a temporary and permanent nature not suitable for capital charges. That might have been provided out of earnings. The trouble with the system is that we have a lot of directors who do not direct, and some of them have no knowledge of railways or their operation. They are selected as directors for geographical and political reasons and not for public ownership reasons. There is no public ownership man I know of, connected with the road. I have supported this principle for many, many years. First of all, they moved their offices to Montreal. Ontario was the public ownership province. That is where the consolidated road made most of its earnings. We have very little to say in it at all. Then there is an additional amount asked for additions and betterments, retirement of maturing capital obligations and so forth. There is an item of $8,000,000 for new equipment. Very little of that comes to Canada. The United States affiliations are getting it, or most of it. A curious thing is that the United States affiliations and subsidiaries of this system are phenomenal for new equipment and betterments; they are almost equal to the system in the empire state express trains. During the war they did not get much out of the old chair system of better cars by day, all reserved for a small charge. You could travel on the American railway system thus during the war. If so, in Canada, you could have travelled on the three or four o'clock train for Montreal or Ottawa where they used to run chair cars, but they did not have any in war time, with the result that the trains were crowded.
There are many other matters that I should like to discuss, but I have just about finished. In my opinion the method of financing is all wrong. More should be paid for out of

income. The auditor general, and not just a private auditor, should have some control over the system. I have no doubt that better work would be thus done by the auditor general. All kinds of commissions are appointed, but during the session we have no control over them. Then, references are made to the committee and nobody can ask any questions about it. In the dying days of parliament we get this bill or a report of a committee on this great national system on which this country has spent hundreds of millions of dollars, on land and sea, in the air, and the hotel system at large, and we have no control over it. In my opinion we need a revision of our rules. I have read the reports of the railways and shipping committee. They smoke good cigars there, no doubt, and ask many questions, but it is no proper review of such a vast enterprise. The very first thing is a proper examination of the budget of hundreds of millions of dollars of this system and all its branches. No department or business would think of doing business with only a cursory examination by a select committee. I compliment the young minister because he has shown a great deal of zeal, and courtesy to private members and others, and he is always willing to answer letters or questions and give any information he can; but I wish to point out to him that Ontario, where they are making most of the revenue, is not getting its fair share of the betterments, equipment and the other matters regarding refinancing. Section 2 refers to $17,500,000 available from reserves for depreciation and debt discount amortization. Then there is $7,000,000 for the acquisition of the Manitoba railway. You will find, refunding bonds on a dollar parity, will cause trouble, and you will experience a lot of difficulty in that connection. This is not a very good time to go into the United States market. I believe if we had some other system of financing and more betterments out of revenue the people would get better value for their money. I travel on the trains and I tell the committee that the rolling stock and equipment in Ontario could be improved.
We want a real public ownership system for that public ownership province. I believe that the minister has been giving public ownership a fair trial since he has been in the department. I do say that more money should be paid out of earnings for all these minor repairs and maintenance charges. A lot of it could be paid out of earnings instead of its being charged up to capital, making vast refunding necessary.

War Crimes


Mr. FULTON:: Yesterday afternoon I
asked the minister certain questions and he said the answers were all to be found in the annual report of last year's operation. I did not have the annual report before mo at the time, although I could not recall seeing the answers in it. I have since obtained a copy, and I find that all the answers are not contained in the annual report, particularly the answef as to how much the Canadian National Railways have paid into the consolidated revenue fund during the war years by way of surplus. That information is probably not avaliable at the moment, because it goes back over several years, but I should appreciate an answer to that question.
The reason I ask it is this. Yesterday I made the general suggestion that it seemed to me that, instead of being used to write down deficits piled up in previous years from interest on bond issues, these surpluses should be used to redeem the bond issues, so that the capital indebtedness of the company could be reduced and it might have a better chance of showing a profit. On page 8 of the report for last year it is stated as a general proposition, under the heading of finance, that during the year the funded debt was reduced by $56,273,908. Then, if you look for the details under the heading of "funded debt retirements", you find that two issues, one for $20,500,000 and one for $30,000,000, were retired. If you look down under "new government loans", however, you find that the company had to borrow $51,000,000 from the government to retire these [DOT] issues, so that in effect the indebtedness of the railway has not been reduced at all by that transaction. Further, they go on to point out that there was a net reduction in funded debt of just over $27,000,000. I have been trying to find out where that money came from, because if you look at the first page of the consolidated income account for 1945 it would appear that the surplus available was $24,000,000. I should have thought that surplus would be used to pay off some of the bonds, but I see they say there has been a net reduction in the funded debt of $27,000,000. Admittedly I am not an expert, and unfortunately I am not a member of the railway committee, so that I would appreciate it if someone would show me how to find my way around this statement. I should like also to be told what happens to the surpluses which are paid into the consolidated revenue fund.


Robert Wellington Mayhew: The hon. member for Kamloops asked three questions yesterday, to which the minister replied that the answers could be found in the annual report of the
Canadian National Railways. The first question was as to the amount of bonds owned by the public and the amount owned by the government.


Edmund Davie Fulton: That is in here; I found it.


Robert Wellington Mayhew: I shall give it to the committee anyway. The amount owned by the public is $573,179,988, and the amount owned by the government is $674,201,603. The surplus earned by the railway from 1941 to 1945 inclusive was $112,000,000, and that surplus was used for the reduction of government loans.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 2 to 8 inclusive agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Acting Prime Minister) moved the second reading of bill No. 309, respecting war crimes.
Gordon Graydon: I am not familiar with the discussion that took place previously with respect to this bill, nor am I aware whether any detailed explanation has been given as to its purposes, objects and so on. At this stage, however, perhaps the minister might give a comprehensive review of the circumstances that led up to the necessity of having this measure, brought in, and also what the measure proposes to do.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: This matter was fully gone into by the committee on external affairs. The statement made there, which I shall briefly repeat here, was along the following lines.
It was felt that His Excellency the Governor General, as commander in chief of the Canadian armies, has the right to take such measures for the conduct of war, when Canada is engaged in war, as the circumstances may require. It was also felt that it was part of his rights and responsibilities to delegate his powers as commander in chief to persons selected by him on the advice of his ministers; and that the commander of the Canadian army would have the right to take such measures as might be proper to deal with those who rendered themselves guilty of breaches of the usages of war. Persons had been apprehended who were charged with having committed war crimes against members of the Canadian forces, and the question arose as to how they would be dealt with.
War Crimes

A similar question, arose in the United Kingdom. There, by royal warrant under the sign manual of the sovereign, a war crimes court was set up to deal with offenders against members of the forces of the United Kingdom. This royal warrant seems to have been issued by His Majesty on the advice of one of his ministers. When the question arose here, the practice of royal warrants never having been adopted in this country, an order in council was passed to set up an authority to deal with those who had been apprehended and charged with offences contrary to the usages of war, committed against personnel 'belonging to the Canadian forces; and) the order in council determined, much along the lines of the regm lations approved by the royal warrant, the procedure to be followed.
In drafting the order in council reference was made to the War Measures Act. Shortly after it had been passed, a question was submitted to the Department of Justice for opinion, as to whether regulations made by this order in council were sufficient to enable penalties exceeding five years' imprisonment to be imposed. The officials of the Department of Justice went into the matter carefully and came to the conclusion that it was quite unnecessary and a surplusage to have had a reference to the War Measures Act in the order in council, and that even it would have been preferable, if it were mentioned at all, to mention it only as one of the statutory sources from which authority to make the regulations was derived1; and that without any reference to the War Measures Act the regulations could be properly made by the governor general on the advice, perhaps of even only one minister, but certainly on the advice of council.
There have been imposed sentences exceeding five years, and one of those sentences is being served now in a Canadian penitentiary by a German officer who had been apprehended, tried and convicted. There appeared, moreover, that there might be occasion to use these regulations beyond the time when the War Measures Act would operate. For that reason, and also to remove any possibility of doubt as to the validity, and continuing validity, of the sentences imposed, it was felt that it would be advisable to have the regulations which were made under the order in council reenacted by parliament. This bill is for the purpose of reenacting those regulations, although not necessarily as permanent legislation because, in spite of the gloomy picture international affairs sometimes present, it is not the policy of the government at this

time to envisage the necessity of maintaining legislation of this kind as permanent legislation.
It was, however, felt that it would be difficult to assign any specific date when it would be proper for the regulations to come to an end. So that the bill was drawn with the proviso that, if passed, it would continue in force until a day fixed by proclamation of the governor in council, and that from anS after that date it would be deemed to be repealed. The reason for using the language "be deemed to be repealed" is that that brings into play the Interpretation Act, which provides that whenever a statute is repealed, whatever has been done under it, if properly done, remains valid as a proper application of the act while it was in force.


Mr. J. G. DIEFENBAKER (Lake Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I consider this bill one of unusual importance in that for the first time, so far as the parliament of Canada is concerned, it is actually giving to a court the power to take judicial notice of the laws and usages of war, which provisions are incorporated in section 10 (6).
While the minister says this is to be only a temporary measure, having regard to the inclusion of the principles and usages of war this measure is a really important step on the part of Canada in the evolution and development of international law, and the recognition by parliament of international law.
The circumstances under which this matter was first brought up were these: Someone drafted the war crimes regulations. Certainly no one in the Department of Justice did it. They made specific reference to the fact that the power being exercised by the governor in council was on the recommendation of the Secretary of State for External Affairs, concurred in by the Minister of Justice and the Minister of National Defence, and under the authority of the War Measures Act.
In other words, while now the minister takes the view that these regulations were drafted as part and parcel of international law, or under the powers of His Majesty under royal warrant, the regulations provided that they were drafted entirely under the War Measures Act with the result-at least so I contended- that in view of the fact that penalties under the War Measures Act were restricted to five years or a fine of $2,000, no statute could grant to a subsidiary measure by way of order in council passed thereunder the power to impose a heavier penalty. Among others, Kurt Meyer, a prisoner in Dorchester penitentiary, might have made an application to the courts for

War Crimes
the purpose of determining that his imprisonment was illegal and, as a result, the doors of that penitentiary might have been opened, should the court find that an illegal sentence, beyond that provided for under the War Measures Act, had been imposed.
While the minister has said there was an opinion from the Department of Justice that such a possibility was not a probability. I would point out that in giving evidence on the matter before the committee on external affairs the deputy minister of justice said he had no doubt that a forceful argument could be made in support of the contention that I advanced to the contrary.
I think this is an important measure for two reasons: First, it will close the doors to the possibility of any war criminal, and Kurt Meyer in particular, being able to raise a defence now or hereafter that an illegal sentence has been imposed upon him; and, secondly, it represents I believe the first time a parliament in any country has taken upon itself the power to impose a penalty for the commission of an offence beyond the confines and territorial jurisdiction of that country. It is a new and unusual step, and one which I believe will be adopted generally in the en-forecemnt of international law in years to come by other countries. In my opinion one of the reasons for the developments that led to the second war was the fact that those who committed aggression crimes and offences against the laws and usages of war during the first world war remained unpunished. In some quarters objection is being taken to the fact that war criminals were being proceeded against, this objection being based upon the ground that international law is not written law and that, that law not having been formally established, procedure against war criminals is in the nature of revenge. In order to keep the record clear in that regard, I should like to point out that on August 21, 1942, President Roosevelt, on behalf of the government of the United States, advised the enemy countries at that time that any military commanders or other leaders who committed criminal offences would be subject to punishment. His statement was approved on September 8, 1942, by Mr. Churchill on behalf of the British government when he said.
I wish most particularly to identify the British government and the House of Commons with the solemn words which have been lately used by the President of the United States, namely, that those who are guilty of the nazi crimes will have to stand up before tribunals in every land where their atrocities have been committed in order that an indelible warning may be given to future ages and that successive generations of men may say, "So perish all who do the like again."
In this bill this house is taking a definite step forward in the development of international law which must be based upon international conscience, and founded upon the epitome of the idealism of all the peoples of the world possessed of an aroused conscience and appreciation of justice. The war trials do in the international field what has been accepted in the national field for many generations and assure that crimes committed by the great or their lieutenants in international wrongdoing shall be subject to punishment by the conscience and collective national will of states that have been offended against.
Usually I am opposed to retroactive legislation. However, I am sure that members on all sides of the house will accept this measure which ratifies what has been done and which assures that international wrongdoing shall not go unpunished. This measure maintains the rule of law in the international sphere. It assures that henceforth, as far as Canada is concerned, we inform the world that wrongdoing internationally will be subject to punishment when the nationals of this country are mistreated or are interfered with in their rights under international law.
The opening address of Mr. Justice Jackson of the United States in the case against the nazi war criminals may be of interest in this connection. He summarized the purpose of this bill in so far as the Canadian parliament is concerned when he used these words:
Civilization asks whether law is so laggard as to be utterly helpless to deal with crimes of this magnitude by criminals of this order of importance. It does not expect that you can make war impossible. It does expect that your juridical action will put the forces of international law, its precepts, its prohibitions and, most of all, its sanctions, on the side of peace, so that men and women of good will in all countries may have "leave to live by no man's leave, underneath the law."
In introducing this measure, the Minister of Justice (Mr. St. Laurent) has done much to assure that Canada will give not only lip adherence to the principles of international law but that this parliament is prepared by its passage to announce to the nations all over the world that Canada accepts the great principles of international law, founded on justice, on conscience and on the abiding principles that activate man in his national relationships in civil life.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, considered in committee, read the third time and passed.
[Stage Direction]
Federal District Commission


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Acting Prime Minister) moved that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:	.
That it is expedient to present a measure to amend the Federal District Commission Act, 1927, to provide for the appointment of fifteen commissioners (in lieu of ten), also for the transfer to the president of the privy council of certain jurisdiction over the commission and to provide further for the granting of moneys, by the payment of grants or otherwise, for the purposes of the commission.
Edmund Davie Fulton: Is it the intention of the
minister to make a statement and, if so, would he prefer to make it now or when we are in committee?
Mr. ST. LAURENT:	I would prefer to
make it in committee so that there will be an opportunity to ask questions.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Golding in the chair.
Mr. ST. LAURENT:	As hon. members
are aware, the government- has taken action to have plans begun for the development of the national capital area as a national war memorial. A large part of the work to be carried out in this connection will devolve upon the federal district commission. In addition, the commission will in the immediate future have a considerable increase in the work which it normally carries on in the capital area owing to the fact that much has had to be deferred during the war. The purpose of the proposed bill is to amend the Federal District Commission Act so as to enable the commission to discharge effectively the increased work which it will have to perform.
The bill provides for the appointment of five new members of the commission, bringing the total to fifteen rather than ten as at present. The joint committee of the Senate and House of Commons which examined problems relating to the national capital in 1944 and 1945, recommended such an increase in membership. It also recommended that the new members be residents of parts of Canada other than the vicinity of Ottawa and Hull. The reason for this is to ensure a national outlook in the work of the commission. This suggestion is embodied in the bill which will follow the adoption of this resolution.
Other terms of the bill provide for an adjustment of the grants to the commission and involve changes incidental to the transfer
	Lil'iC!
to the president of the privy council of jurisdiction over the federal district commission.
Under the act "minister" was defined to be the Minister of Public Works. It is now proposed that the commission shall operate under the president of the privy council, who at the present time happens to be also the Prime Minister. It is felt that the federal district commission, made up as it will be, if the bill carries, not only of representatives of the vicinity of Ottawa and Hull but of additional members from all over Canada, should be under the president of the privy council, who with the members of council represents the nation at large.
The provisions of the bill can be more conveniently studied after it has been distributed, and my suggestion would be that hon. members allow the resolution to be adopted and the bill given first reading. It has been printed and will be immediately available for distribution. The details provided for in the bill can be more conveniently discussed when hon. members have the proposed text before them.


Mr. THATCHER:: Could the minister indicate roughly what amount the commission is likely to ask for during the current year?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: The bill will provide that the grant to the federal district commission, instead of $200,000 as heretofore,. will be $300,000.


Wilbert Ross Thatcher: Is the main purpose of this legislation mainly to beautify Ottawa as was suggested in the throne speech either last session or this?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: This is not the whole project. The whole project has not yet been planned. Plans are now being prepared by and under the direction of Mr. Greber and are being discussed by him and his associates with the members of the federal district commission. The federal district commission has been in existence for a great many years and already has control and maintenance of the driveways and parks and many of the open spaces in the capital city. This is to provide a grant of $300,000 per annum instead of $200,000 for the furtherance of the work which has heretofore been carried on- by the federal district commission and which will continue to be carried on if the bill passes and be proceeded with more extensively than in the past.


Wilbert Ross Thatcher: This legislation does not mean the moving of factories and other buildings such as has been suggested by the news-

Federal District Commission
papers? Nothing as extensive as that is proposed by the bill?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: No. The federal district commission has been from time to time acquiring property which it was felt would be required for the development of the driveways and parks system in Ottawa, but the bill does not provide for any grandiose scheme at this time.


Mr. REID:: As one who has taken some interest in the federal district commission ever since I was appointed a member of the committee which was set up to investigate it, I have one suggestion to make to the minister. I am not sure whether it is contained in the bill.
A short time ago I wrote to the Prime Minister suggesting a scheme which I believe would result in a greater interest being taken in the federal district of Ottawa and in the national capital, and that was that each provincial government be asked to take a part in the beautification of Ottawa and have on the board a representative from each province. My own province, for instance, could beautify a certain portion of parliament hill or of Mackenzie avenue, and other provinces could do likewise. Most members w'hen they first come here have a narrow viewpoint of Ottawa, being inclined to look upon it simply as Ottawa and not as the national capital. My membership on the committee certainly broadened my views, and since then I have looked at Ottawa from the national point of view. I have often asked myself how we could arouse a greater interest throughout the country in the development of Ottawa as the national capital, and I think one way would be to have the provinces improve and develop the grounds around the parliament buildings. My suggestion to the Prime Minister and to the Acting Prime Minister is that the scope of the bill be broadened so that each province may have a representative on the board. They would not need to meet more than about once a year.
I think everybody's attention was attracted this year by the grand display of tulips on the grounds in front of the parliament buildings. While it was stated that the tulip bulbs were a gift of good will by the people of Holland, the cold fact was that it was one of the best business displays that Holland ever made. I remember asking where the bulbs came from, and I was told that they were a gift from the people of Holland because they were so thankful for what Canada had done in the war. I investigated and found that
Eire had received as many bulbs from Holland as we had, and I asked myself what help Eire had given to Holland during the war. The answer was nil. I later discovered that some twenty good salesmen had left Holland and had come to the North American continent and that eight countries had been given great quantities of these beautiful bulbs. In British Columbia we have an excellent bulb which for many years has been finding a market in Ottawa, and now we find ourselves faced with competition with bulbs grown more cheaply in Holland, which have been displayed here under the guise of a contribution of thankfulness from the people of Holland. The cold fact was that it was a straight business deal by salesmen from Holland. I am not finding fault with the salesmen for that, because everyone must admit that the tulips were beautiful, but I had a sinking feeling when I thought of our bulb growers in British Columbia and what they would be up against from that competition. So I suggest to the Acting Prime Minister that each province be represented on the commission to stimulate a national interest in the capital city. I know there are men in British Columbia who are prepared now to take a spot on the parliament building grounds and' plant rose bushes and bulbs there, a display that, would be known as British Columbia's, and similarly with the other provinces. I think the suggestion has a great deal of merit and would arouse an interest in all the provinces in the beautification of Ottawa and in making it a real national capital. Unless we bring the provinces in, in some way, by giving them ^ direct representation on the federal commission and by encouraging oui* growers in the various provinces to see what they can do and take pride in the work I doubt very much whether the scheme will expand as fast as the Prime Minister has in mmd. Those are all the remarks I have to make at this stage. I would ask that consideration be given to the suggestions I have just outlined.


Mr. BRACKEN:: The resolution before us anticipates a measure to amend the Federal District Commission Act. This act provides for the appropriation of money by the state for the improvement of certain sections of Ottawa and its environment. The amendment proposed anticipates on the part of the parliament of Canada the provision of increased amounts of money for the purpose of changing in some degree the original conception; it is for the purpose of making this vicinity a national war memorial. I am rising now to ask the minister if, when we go into.
Federal District Commission

committee to deal with the bill itself, he will give us a brief statement as to what has been done by the state in connection with this project, when it was started, roughly what has been done, the expenditures from year to year from the beginning, in tabulated form, and what the national war memorial aspects of this proposal are likely to mean in the way of increased cost to the state. The minister has indicated that the annual appropriation in recent years has been $200,000 and that when the bill which follows this resolution passes it will be $300,000, or an increase of fifty per cent. One question he might answer now is this: is the appropriation for just one year, or is this another of those appropriation bills which tie us to an expenditure for an indefinite number of years? I rather gather that it is the latter. Perhaps the minister will answer that before six o'clock. But when we are dealing with this matter later I would ask him to let us know- sand I am not raising the question in any .critical way but only in order that members of parliament and the public may know- what the government has done, what it is doing, and what this proposal will require it to do in future in the way of expenditures. At this time perhaps he will mention whether the appropriation is to be for one year or whether it will tie us indefinitely to the enlarged grant of $300,000 a year, with, no doubt, the prospect of other increases later on.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: The bill will provide for an increase in the annual payment from $200,000 to $300,000 for a period not exceeding fifteen years from the 1st day of April,
1947.


Wilbert Ross Thatcher: With the principle of his bill I certainly agree. We do need a oeautiful Ottawa. But I am glad that the bill is not contemplating at the present time the grandiose expenditures which the press has been talking about. Perhaps some time we shall have such a bill. I hope that if the government is planning to beautify Ottawa to the extent the newspapers are suggesting it will first look after irrigation in western Canada, because something like that is more necessary in this country than the beautification of Ottawa.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Wilbert Ross Thatcher: As far as I am concerned, before I vote for any large expenditures to beautify one city I want to see my own city get some water and western Canadian farmers receive a little protection from [DOT]drought.
.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. St. Laurent thereupon moved for leave to introduce bill No. 357, to amend the Federal District Commission Act.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.
At six o'clock the house took recess.
After Recess
The house resumed at eight o'clock.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair.



POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT

[Stage Direction]
259. Departmental administration, $1,175,465.
Ernest Bertrand: 
Mr. MacNICOL:: Would the minister give the air mail?


Ernest Bertrand: 
Gordon Graydon: In recent times'have there been any changes in the high ranking men in the Post Office Department?


Ernest Bertrand: 
Gordon Graydon: I rose for the purpose of giving the minister the opportunity of putting the name of his new deputy .minister on the record. He has been behind the scenes for
a good deal of the time and I thought perhaps the minister might wish to put his name on the record.


Ernest Bertrand: He was here last year and generally is well known around the premises, and has been for many years. Besides that, he is a man who comes from the post office.


Thomas Reid: During the past number of years thousands and thousands of gift parcels have been sent by the people of Canada to the people of the old country. Considerable criticism has reached me, and the question they ask is, why is it that anyone sending parcels from Canada to Great Britain is charged twenty-eight cents a pound, while people in the United States can send parcels to Great Britain for fourteen cents a pound, just half what we pay in this country. Could the minister make a statement as to why we should pay twice as much to send a parcel practically the same distance?


Ernest Bertrand: On all these gift parcels we are sending to Europe we have a rate which includes the charge we make ourselves, an amount to pay for the transit of those parcels, a certain amount which England asks when they pass through that country, and, in addition the charge made by the receiving nation. I had occasion this session to give the details of some of these rates. We are charging a very reasonable rate ourselves, and if it were not for the transit charges, plus the charges made by the receiving nations, our rate would be about equal that of the United States, which has a direct line of communication with most of the European countries and so does not have to pay these transit charges.


Thomas Reid: I am. speaking about parcels going direct to Great Britain, for people in Great Britain. I am not speaking of parcels that go to Great Britain first and then on to the continent. I understand that our rate on parcels going to Britain is twice the United States rate.


Ernest Bertrand: I do not remember exactly what we are charging, but I know our charge for taking a parcel from anywhere in Canada and sending it to England is less than England is charging to receive that parcel. I gave the figures earlier this session. I do not know exactly why the United States would charge less, but those are the facts.


Mr. HACKETT:: They might have a better rate in England than we have.


Ernest Bertrand: I do not know exactly; I would have to inquire.
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John Ritchie MacNicol: When these estimates were up last session the question of the salaries of the postal staff at the branch .post offices came up. At that time I believe the minister intimated that the salaries of the letter carriers would be increased, and I presume that has been done?


Ernest Bertrand: Yes, it has.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I should like the minister to tell us by how much they have been increased, because if there is one part of the whole public service that deserves a little extra consideration I believe it is the postal staff. Their duties are very heavy, and in a place like Toronto those duties are increasing all the time. I see them on my street; even the postie from the branch office is loaded down almost beyond his capacity. It seems they are now delivering magazines for every conceivable publisher, and as far as I can see they are very much overworked. I should like the minister to tell us by how much their salaries have been increased. Last session I also asked about the foremen in the branch post offices. I am advised their salaries have not been increased, and I should like to know why that has not been done. Their duties are very responsible, and they are having more and more work to do all the time.


Ernest Bertrand: I just said that the salaries of all employees have been increased, with the exception of the top officials and the district directors. The minimum increase is S120. The order in council has not been made public as yet; it was passed only last week. The minimum increase is $120 a year and the maximum is $180.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Does that include the postal foremen?


Ernest Bertrand: My hon. friend means the supervisors, and that includes them.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Yes; I mean the man who looks after the routes, who sees they are properly taken care of.


Ernest Bertrand: Yes, he gets $180, and I hope it will be retroactive to April 1, 1946.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It starts at $120?


Ernest Bertrand: Yes, for the lower grades, going up to $180 for the higher grades. That was done only last week. The men know about it, but the general public do not.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Then the minister said the deliveries had been increased to two daily?


Ernest Bertrand: Yes.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Is that the case in my end of the city of Toronto? I do not know about it. It may be so. Are there two deliveries on Saturday, or just one?


Ernest Bertrand: Only one on Saturday.


John Ritchie MacNicol: If I mail a letter here in Ottawa on Friday afternoon, addressed to my own home, they do not get it until Monday afternoon. I could walk that far with a letter in that time. What is the reason for that?


Ernest Bertrand: I should like to know if that is the case since the second daily delivery has been in operation. Of course, when we had only one delivery in the residential districts, in certain places that delivery was made in the afternoon, while in others it was made in the forenoon, because the men were working all day. I should be surprised if a letter posted here on Friday did not reach the hon. member's residence until Monday afternoon. It should get there Monday forenoon.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It should, but it does not appear to. If I post a letter here in the House of Commons on Friday it does not go out until eleven o'clock at night, and there would be no delivery Saturday afternoon.


Ernest Bertrand: The first delivery after that would be Monday morning.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That is quite a long time too, is it not?


Ernest Bertrand: But we do not deliver on Sunday.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Do you deliver on Saturday afternoon?


Ernest Bertrand: No, unless it is a special delivery letter. Our employees work a 44-lvour week.


Mr. HERRIDGE:: 
Ernest Bertrand: That is
exactly what we are doing. We are giving a 100 per cent preference to returned men in connection with any new jobs.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: The minister possibly did not understand my remarks. That is not what the post office is doing. I say I know of people who are earning a good living, and to whom the post office is just an adjunct, a sideline. Those people can do without post offices. I say the Post Office Department should consider giving those to veterans. In some instances the income is as low as 5500, but that would enable many men with a pension to get along comfortably.


Mr. BRYCE:: Has the Postmaster General had any word from the government in the old country regarding a conference concerning these rates? The rates at the present time are twenty-four cents for the first pound, and eighteen cents for every additional pound. I asked the Postmaster General about that, and he told me that the outcome depended upon the old country government's entering into a conference with this government. Has there been any action in that connection?


Ernest Bertrand: On an eleven-pound parcel shipped to England we charge $2.25. Out of that we pay the steamship company SI .25 and we pay England sixty cents, leaving for ourselves only forty cents.
Some of our officials were overseas. Mr. Germain was overseas not long ago and visited countries to which we ship these parcels. We find we cannot get a better rate than we are getting. We have to collect whatever we pay back to England or to any other country. To countries on the continent we have to pay more because most of these parcels go in transit via England, and we have to pay for transit. So that if on a parcel weighing eleven pounds we in Canada collect only forty cents for taking that parcel from anywhere in Canada to the port of departure from Canada, I do not think we are charging too much.


William Scottie Bryce: There has been no conference yet, has there?


Ernest Bertrand: Yes, there has been a conference in which the officials of my department have taken part. The result has been that no reduction has been brought about. The British government has been approached particularly and their reply is that for the time being they cannot reduce these rates.


Mr. LENNARD:: Is it the custom to discuss everything connected with the Post Office Department when the first item is called? I notice that almost every subject is being discussed, and if that is permitted there is one I should like to bring to the attention of the minister.


The CHAIRMAN:: It is customary to have a general discussion on the first item. But if hon. members have questions on any particular items I would suggest that they be reserved until the items are called. -


Frank Exton Lennard: I have a matter I shall place before the minister. His officials can consider it during the next few minutes, so that when the item is called it may be answered. I have before me a circular letter under date of July 20 sent out last month by the Toronto postal district service, in which they intimate that the five per cent cost of operation bonus is to be discontinued on February 15 next.
Further on in the letter, it states that it is necessary for the Post Office Department to have information as to whether a man wishes to continue on a lower rate, and they ask whether a lower rate would be accepted, or if the person in question would rather be relieved of his contract.
On the surface this seems unfair because, if the bonus was given for good cause during the war, most certainly the cost of living has not gone down, nor have operating costs in the past several years. I should like to know why
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this is being discontinued. Surely these rural delivery men are under greater expense to-day than they were even during the war.


Ernest Bertrand: I shall answer that question immediately, because one might expect other questions along the same line. Only this afternoon a somewhat similar question was asked. Hon. members will realize, of course, that we have legal contracts with rural mail carriers and that we pay the bonus by virtue of order in council. These bonuses were supposed to be terminated on December 31, and we have asked to continue them until February 15. There is now before parliament a bill which would give the government an extension of sixty days instead of fifteen.
Some of the officials notified contractors that after the expiration of these contracts the bonuses could not be paid any longer because, unless we received authority from the House of Commons to do so, we would not have authority to continue the bonuses. Some of the officials gave this notification because they did not want to take any of the contractors by surprise. But after due consideration we are cancelling all these notices. We are sending a letter to every contractor who has received the notice telling him that we are hoping to continue the bonus until sixty days after the opening of the next session.
Then we shall have to readjust the contract either by asking for new tenders or by presenting a bill to parliament which would give the Postmaster General authority to renew these contracts at the rate set out therein, plus bonus. I do not want to plead the case before it comes up next session, but in order to prepare the hon. member I may say that every time we cancel a contract on account of the death of a contractor or to his sickness and inability to fulfil his contract, we ask for tenders. At this time the tenders are always higher than the original contract plus bonus.


Mr. LOCKHART:: I believe that in connection with rural mail delivery there is a basis of so much per mile, where a satisfactory service cannot be obtained otherwise. I understand that the department sometimes gives a mileage allowance. Is that basis higher to-day than it was three years ago; or is it on the same basis, plus the bonus being discussed?


Ernest Bertrand: The same basis, plus this bonus. Every time we ask for tenders it varies. I must admit that at certain times tenders are put in which are too low, but the law forces us to accept the tender of a man who has the facilities to fulfil his contract. The Post Office Act permits a postmaster to award a contract for $200 or less without asking for tenders. This provision

goes back to 1867. If we had had time this session I would have brought in amendments to the Post Office Act to increase this amount from $200 to $500, because I admit that to-day $500 is worth no more than $200 was in 1867.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: In a case where a tender was too high and the department refused to accept it and then said that they had a mile rate which they thought was fair, the mile rate was the same as before the war. The department still insisted that it was quite fair and I am wondering why there was not some adjustment.


Ernest Bertrand: There is no fixed rate. We are obliged to take the lowest tender, but we are not obliged to take the highest. We have adjusted certain contracts on account of increased expenses caused by the war, but there is no fixed rate per mile. It would be impossible to fix a rate because so many factors enter into the contracts. In some places horses and sleighs must be used in the winter time and automobiles in the summer, while in other places aeroplanes are used and so on.


Mr. GRANT:: I should like to support the argument advanced by the hon. member for Kootenay West in connection with putting post offices in stores. When you ask the department to give this job to a returned soldier in a case where the storekeeper may be quite prosperous they write and tell you that you must get two people to give a sworn affidavit that the man is not operating the post office m the right way. That is not the point. The man is making money in his store and he is handling all the old age pension cheques and the children's allowance cheques. He knows where every cheque is going and when people come in for their cheques they are asked to pay their bills. This matter should be straightened out right now and every hon. member should support it. These people who keep stores should not be allowed to keep post offices, especially since the old age pensions and children's allowances have come into effect. I think every hon. member knows of cases, because there are thousands of them in Canada where the man running the store is keeping the post office. I think every hon. member in this committee should ask the Postmaster General to change the regulations whereby people running stores are allowed to keep post offices.


Thomas Reid: I hope the minister will not take that advice seriously.


Thomas Vincent Grant: If the hon. member for Vancouver wants to put up an argument against another member in his own party-

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Thomas Reid: Do not confuse me with Vancouver; it is New Westminster; please get it right.


Thomas Vincent Grant: I suppose he will vote against it because he always votes against his party.


Thomas Reid: I will say in a kindly way that I pity the hon. member and I ask the minister in all seriousness-


Thomas Vincent Grant: Somebody ought to pity you.


Thomas Reid: I do not care about that. I still say to the minister that I hope he does not take too seriously this suggestion. If it is followed many small places will not have post offices.


Thomas Langton Church: On page 11 of his report the Postmaster General reports a surplus of $11,442,000. The Toronto post offices contribute about thirty-one per cent of the gross revenue, since the statement on page 106 shows that the Toronto post offices contributed $12,290,055. During the war, the postmen on the routes had to serve twice as large a district as had been served during peace time. This placed a heavy strain upon the men, especially during the winter weather. A large number were laid off when the routes were doubled. This department has provided an excellent public service both in peace and in war. Along with the police and fire departments it is the other public utility giving most excellent service.
A large mail order post office building was built on Bay street, but the armed forces took it over during the war. I accompanied the predecessor of the present minister and the Postmaster General, along with the present Minister of Public Works, through terminal "A" post office building at Bay and Front streets, and we were both astonished at the conditions under which the staff had to work during rush times at Christmas and Easter. I understand that the department has now got part of this new mail order building back, and soon will have it all, so that a better building will give greatly needed space.
There used to be three deliveries each day in the business section and two in the residential section, and I should like to see this service restored. In some parts of the city they are getting only one residential delivery a day. Three years ago I complained about the punishment that was meted out to the one-tenth of one per cent of the men who got into trouble for stealing a few cents in letters. If a man took a few cents out of a letter the penalty imposed was three years. I brought this matter up for eight or nine years, and the act was finally amended making the punishment one year and giving the magis-63260-277
trate the option of reducing it to a lesser offence, with a penalty of one month, now the law. I think that is in the public interest and I am glad to see it is being carried out.
I should like to make a suggestion with regard to Toronto, and this may apply to other cities as well. We should have a system of drop letters at a one cent rate. There is no reason why that could not be done because there is a surplus of $11,442,000. I do not think the time is far distant when the rate will have to be reduced from three to two cents for letters going outside the city. Many complaints are being made about the cost of mailing parcels. The other day I sent the minister a letter which I had received from a prominent lady who is head of a patriotic organization. She sends about thirty or forty parcels a week to the old country and out of $4 or $5 she gets back only three or four cents change on maling only three of these. Probably tire rates are fixed at the other end by the British government, but the minister should look into this matter.
I hope the department will recover possession of the building on Bay street. I should like to say a word about branch post offices. There are a great many of them located in the twelve constituencies in Toronto. From 1869 to 1901 the department had deficits, but with few exceptions from then on it has always shown a surplus. There was a series of deficits in the depression years from 1927 to 1931, but the surpluses started again in 1932 when there was a surplus of $657,000. In 1933 this went up to $1,164,000, and in 1935 there was a surplus of $2,274,000. The surplus in 1938 was $3,249,000. During the war there were large surpluses. Last year the surplus was $12,585,000, and this year it is $11,442,000.
I believe the time has come for the Post Office Department to provide better working conditions for the rank and file of the staff. Perhaps that comes under the civil service commission. In any event, something should be done to improve the working conditions because they are deplorable. In the summer time the men wear heavy uniforms, almost as heavy as those of the mounted police. Suitable summer uniforms prevail in municipalities.
I believe that the Post Office Department, which has given such fine service both in peace and in war, should expand. It was about ready to expand when the war started. The post office in Great Britain and in France has made great improvements. Our post office should be extended, as in England, to other uses and functions, as a public utility and in that way the public would get more service. I hope that the minister will look

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into these matters, about which I wrote a memorandum to his predecessor, who said that he would certainly consider it. Certainly something should be done to provide better working conditions for the working classes who are engaged on this work. A large number of women and men also are now employed in sorting letters and doing other work inside, and their working conditions and space and health conditions are not at all what they should be. I was really surprised to see what those conditions were. You could not get away with them in a factory, but at terminal "A" in Toronto women are working by night and by day with insufficient lighting and lack of ordinary laws of public hygiene. I hope to see some modern improvements made in their working conditions.
In Toronto we have no main post office. We did once have a head post office on Toronto street, but we have no head post office in our city to-day. The department is leasing terminal "A", which is at the corner of Bay and Front street and is a part of the Union station. With a revenue of $13,000,000 from the Toronto post office, the city is certainly entitled to a modern post office building. Other public utilities have these new public buildings there; and it is not only a convenience but adds to the revenue as well.
I find some of the costly sub-post offices costing $20,000 to $30,000 or $40,000 with only about twenty per cent revenues therefrom. The department should be run on a commercial basis. I understand that the sub-post offices are granted and located on a party patronage basis, and not from a commercial aspect. Three hundred people applied for a new sub-post office on Carlaw avenue. They could not walk all the way from Gerrard street right up to Danforth, about a mile and a quarter, in bad weather, and they could not get a sub-post office on Carlaw avenue. I understand that the staff in sub-post offices is appointed on a party patronage basis. I have had a lot of complaints from returned men as to getting on terminal "A". I have had twenty or thirty letters from returned soldiers this year who were trying to get temporary or permanent employment at terminal "A". They could not apply there for work but had to go up to 465 Bay street, a mile farther away, to see somebody in the civil service commission. They would go in there and be kept waiting for half an hour or an hour and then be told to come back the next day, and they got no satisfaction. That should not be done to returned men, but I have seen it. There should be some more direct method of engaging these men. I do not believe

altogether in the civil service commission. It has made mistakes. I believe that the superintendent of the post office, Mr. Gibson, an able, efficient and popular director of Toronto, whose office brings in a revenue of $13,000,000 a year and who gets a small and insignificant salary for the work he dues, should have power as head of the branch to choose his own staff.
I venture to say that if he did, the returned men would get a better chance.


Gordon Graydon: I cannot find any other item in the estimates on which to raise this important point, and so I take this opportunity of raising it on the administration item. I understand from outside sources that the Post Office Department is about to issue new postage stamps, and I am told that that there are seven new designs to be issued.


Ernest Bertrand: I made a statement in the house about the matter last week.


Gordon Graydon: That is what I was coming to. Before the minister made his statement in the house and before the members had an opportunity of seeing these exhibits of beauty, a storm was brewing over the new designs, and I want to get the minister's point of view because it is essential that we should have both sides. One of the designs I * understand shows a ploughman with his furrow being turned on the wrong side of the plough. I have not seen the stamp myself. I think the members of the house should have been given a preview of these new designs.


Mr. GIBSON (Hamilton West):: A lefthanded plough.


Gordon Graydon: If the minister ever
attempted to plough he would certainly take the wrong side of whatever he was doing. Perhaps he would be a left-handed ploughman.


Mr. MACKENZIE:: Cincinnatus.


Gordon Graydon: Another stamp depicts a logging scene. I am not prepared to express an expert opinion on this. No doubt my good friend the hon. member for 'Comox-Alberni and others will be able to do that. But the way we hear it is that this new stamp shows two loggers turning their backs upon a falling tree, which from the expert's point of view indicates that these two men are in great danger of their lives. Other criticisms as well have been made of the new stamps that are being issued. I should like the minister to indicate who was responsible for these stamps, who were the designers, and would he also indicate whether any changes are to be made? Perhaps in the end

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these stamps will provide additional money for the department. I certainly am not going to object to that. One paragraph that I read in the newspapers indicates that these new stamps will incidentally make money for the department. I quote one paragraph:
In all this, whatever the technical criticism, there is profit and enjoyment.


Mr. MITCHELL:: What paper is my hon. friend quoting from?


Gordon Graydon: It is the paper that always supports my hon. friend, the Toronto Globe and Mail. It goes on:
Canadian stamps enjoy a world-wide reputation for their quality and a new issue almost always pays for itself three times over due to the demand of collectors, philatelists-
I may have the pronunciation wrong.
-are a peculiar brew who draw unbounded satisfaction from such things as inverted centres, over-impressions and double transfers. To them a left-handed plowman or a foolish woodsman is a thing of beauty and a joy forever.
I would ask the minister to enlighten the committee about these new objects of beauty which are shortly to adorn our letters.


Ernest Bertrand: As everyone knows, I am almost new in the office of Postmaster General. I never thought there were so many philatelists in the world, but long before this issue came out we received hundreds of letters asking us to reserve a certain number of postage stamps for the w'riters. We have here a fourteen cent stamp representing a hydro-electric plant on the St. Maurice river. It happens to be La Gabelle, one of the best known plants belonging to the Shawinigan Water and Power Company, and I have received telegrams from the company asking for a large number of these stamps to send as gifts, presumably to clients and friends of the company.
About the farmer in eastern Ontario, it is true that the gentleman who is ploughing the field there does it on the left. My attention has been drawn to that, but I am told that there are reversible ploughs; if somebody has to plough on the down hill he ploughs in such a way that the fallow falls downhill, not uphill.


Gordon Graydon: Does that mean that the government is going downhill?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: All the Tories are going downhill.


Ernest Bertrand: It is that way on this eight-cent stamp. I did ploughing myself when I was much younger, but I do not remember whether I was ploughing on the left or the right. However, according to the I Mr Brooks.]
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philatelists, the picture of this plough turning on the left is moie valuable than if it were on the right side. There is no error; it is a very fine and well designed stamp.
Now about the fifty cent stamps; this issue 'shows lumberjacks working on fir and pine in British Columbia. I do not think there is any danger for these two men, because one is behind a tree-the tree is falling on the right and the man is behind it-and the other gentleman is cutting a tree which seems to be at least 150 feet on the right. The tree is falling to the rear, so that there is no danger at all. I do not think that stamp will have the value of the one which shows the plough working on the left.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: I have two or three
questions to ask the minister. They are not interrelated in themselves, but they have relation to other questions which have been asked on this administration item, so I assume that I may present them. I was interested in hearing the minister say that the pay of the post office employees had been raised, and in that connection I want to mention the matter of overtime, the work performed on Sundays and on statutory holidays. I shall ask the minister this question, and invite him to reserve his answer while I go into another matter which has relation to it. My question is, do the post office employees now or can they hope shortly to draw overtime for work performed on Sundays or on statutory holidays-and I want to say this, and I want these words noted-in cash? One would wonder, if an employee is not paid in cash, what is the coinage in which he receives his remuneration. In looking into this matter I have unearthed something which surprises me tremendously.
I find that certain employees of the post office have agreements in that jime worked on statutory holidays-note this-"may at the present time be liquidated by time off'', and they urge that such liquidation be confined to the month in which the overtime is worked instead of spread over the month in which it is worked and the following month. That needs a little explaining to anyone like myself who is not familiar with that peculiar system.
I imagine it is pretty cold comfort to the letter carrier who wmrks overtime the night before Christmas to know that in the following February he shall get a Monday off for the service so rendered.
Mr. BER1 RAND (Laurier): He is paid in cash at Christmas time.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: But only at Christmas time? However, perhaps I should let the minister answer my question: is there any
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provision now for overtime payment in cash for Sundays and statutory holidays? Would the minister at the same time comment upon this peculiar and, in my opinion, wrong system of paying a man by allowing time to be "liquidated"-a peculiar term which is apparently characteristic of the particular thing of which I am speaking? I should like the privilege of asking a further question when the minister has answered this one.


Ernest Bertrand: At all times, or at all events for some time, extra work done during the Christmas season has been paid for in cash.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: Overtime?


Ernest Bertrand: Overtime.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: Counting as time and a half?


Ernest Bertrand: At pro rata.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: Not time and a half?


Ernest Bertrand: No. During the other periods of the year we were paying him in time off. I must tell the hon. gentleman that this question is being studied very carefully at present both by the department and by the treasury board. I cannot to-day give the decision at which we are going to arrive, but we are reviewing this matter after having reviewed the salaries.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: The employees are desirous that this overtime or this "liquidation" of time should be paid in the month in which it is earned and not scattered over that month and the month which follows:
My other question has relation to the matter of parcel post. Someone brought up the subject to-night. I should like to refer to the sending of parcels by post to Germany. I know that ordinary letter mail to Germany was opened some time ago, and the United States opened a parcel post service some eight weeks ago. I applied to the Post Office Department to-day, and I will say that I got a civil and courteous answer from a gentleman in the minister's department, but while I got that information privately I think the matter ought to be brought to the attention of the house and the country. It is a matter affecting Canadian citizens and residents here who are anxious about the fate of their relatives in Germany. Germany, of course, is divided into three zones. I am thinking in particular of two of those zones, occupied respectively by British forces and by troops of the United States army. The letter I hold in my hand is written by a man who tells me that his mother died last year in January, 
simply from hunger. He has also sisters and a brother over there. It is only natural that he is desirous of sending small items of food and clothing, which he would not himself miss, in an attempt to save the lives of his remaining relatives. This afternoon I was given to understand by the official of the minister's department that the Post Office Department has done everything possible in that regard. Apparently they have applied to the United States authorities in the United States zone without success, and up until the present at least the result has been the same in the British zone. I presume that there is a way around this which is an irregular one. I presume that a man in this position could have food sent from the United States under the United States regulations, and it could be put into the zone now occupied by the United States army, but there would appear to be no way of getting food and clothing to save those people's lives in the British zone. It is a matter which concerns many people of German origin in this country, and I would urge the minister to keep on with the good work of trying to break down these walls at the earliest possible moment and thereby save lives.


Ernest Bertrand: I wish to say a few words about this. Ever since the war terminated we have had a lot of requests to send parcels to the former enemy countries of Germany and Italy, but we did all we could to accommodate our own people. There was no service in these countries. Even France, which was liberated some time before the end of the war, was in a similar position. We could not send parcels there because the French authorities had no way of delivering them. We started up by sending a small parcel of four pounds; then the weight was increased to seven pounds, then to eleven pounds and now it is twenty-two pounds. These services are being reorganized as quickly as possible in these countries, and as soon as we get the green light we shall be glad to notify the public of Canada that they may send parcels to these countries.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I may say to the minister , that I have no complaint about the design of the new postage stamp for New Brunswick because there is no such thing. The same applies to Nova Scotia. I might tell the minister, if he has not already heard it, that both these provinces feel that they have been neglected. When the minister was considering designs he might very well have considered New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, especially when we realize what these provinces did during the war. I might refer particularly to the ports of Saint John and Halifax. No port in

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Canada did as much for the war effort as did the port of Halifax, and to a lesser degree the port of Saint John.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: It is a better port.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: It does not make any difference which is better; they are both good, and they are both good enough to be considered when stamps are being designed. I know the minister will tell us that'he has given us a stamp for the maritime provinces. I believe that stamp represents the new ferry boat between New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island. Is that not correct?


Ernest Bertrand: That is absolutely correct, and it is a beautiful one.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: The hon. member for Queens will probably tell the minister that they would rather see this ferry on the Northumberland strait than on a postage stamp. They have been waiting a long time for that ferry and I believe it will be some time yet before it is on that route. Therefore, if there is any criticism-


Ernest Bertrand: According to the stamp she seems to be going fine.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: She is going at Sorel; but, if I understand correctly, it is not on the route between New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island.
My main object in rising was to ask the minister a question in reference to village post offices. We have made application for a number of post offices in my own province. I refer particularly to the village of Rothesay in the county of Kings, New Brunswick. This is a village of nearly two thousand people, one of the few incorporated villages in the maritime provinces. They have post office accommodation which would disgrace a rural community of a hundred or a hundred and fifty people. There is a small room; it is not much larger than, I was going to say, a telephone booth. When the people go for their mail no matter what the weather is like, if there are more than three or four some have to stand outside. In this village there are two large schools, the Rothesay collegiate school for boys and the Netherwood school for girls, and also a large consolidated school. I know of no other community anywhere that I have been in in Canada which has as poor postal accommodation as has the village of Rothesay. I wrote not only to the Post Office Department but to the public works department some time ago, and the excuse that was given was that they were not building any post offices during the war. That was a reasonable excuse; but during the war our Post Office Department must
have made considerable money, and I know no reason why something should not be done along this line. If a new post office is not constructed-and I contend that they are * deserving of a new post office-at least some suitable accommodation should be provided. The revenue from this village is over $8,000 a year, and I am satisfied that it cannot be costing more than half of that to carry on the postal services.
I might also say to the minister that a short time ago I sent him a petition from the village of Rothesay asking for a new post office, and as yet I have not had the courtesy of a reply from the minister's department. It may be that he has not had time, but the ' petition was sent.


Ernest Bertrand: When was the letter sent?


Alfred Johnson Brooks: It was sent ten days ago, and that should be sufficient time. If the minister has not had time to reply that is perfectly all right.


Ernest Bertrand: We may have to make an investigation; we generally make an investigation.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: As I say, I wrote the department before. The offices in Ottawa should have all the information which is required; it should not take long to make an investigation.
I should also like to take up the matter of rural routes. Possibly what applies to my constituency applies to a great many. Very little has been done during the war to extend rural routes throughout the country. A good many applications have been made for an extension, but the reply we have received is that there has been a war on and they could not extend these rural routes. I hope that the minister will take under consideration the many applications which he must have for the extension of rural routes for the better postal accommodation of the people throughout the country. I do not think there is anything further other than these two items. I hope that the minister will give them his attention and look into the matter of the Rothesay post office.


Ernest Bertrand: I do not wish to delay the committee in the passing of these estimates, but I feel that I should give an answer to the hon. gentleman with reference to the stamps. We have nine new stamps. Of course we cannot at all times have a stamp-


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I would point out that there are only nine provinces in Canada.
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Ernest Bertrand: Yes. If the hon. gentleman wishes to hear my answer I shall be glad to give it to him. When we print stamps we cannot at all times print nine, one for each province. We have to take care of the large province of Ontario in which is situated Toronto, which produces over $13,000,000 of revenue. It is true that in this issue there is no stamp having particular reference to Nova Scotia. There is one, as the hon. member said, depicting a ferryboat proceeding from Prince Edward Island to New Brunswick or vice versa. It is a beautiful stamp. We take our motif from the different districts, and I must say that as long as I am Postmaster General I shall never forget either Nova Scotia or New Brunswick. I like those two provinces very much; I know their importance, and I am sure that hon. members representing those provinces do not let anyone forget them. We have paid our respects to Nova Scotia in years gone by. In 1938, /or example, we had a stamp showing Halifax 'harbour. In 1929 we had beautiful stamps of -the Bluenose, and in 1930 we had a stamp showing Grand Pre. In 1934 we had a New "Brunswick stamp showing a ship, and we had *one of Prince Edward Island in 1935. I am *sure the objection raised is not very serious, '.but we like io show we are not forgetting New Brunswick or Nova Scotia.
With regard to post offices in villages, as the hon. member knows they are revenue post offices, meaning that the postmaster receives a percentage of the revenue. In places where the revenue may be only $50 or $60 a year we pay the postmaster a minimum of $110, losing money thereby. I know the postmasters have to furnish decent places to keep the post offices, and the department does not look after those places, though we pay a certain amount by way of subsidy. In the case of Rothesay, if the hon. member has had no reply it is probably because there have been complaints and we have asked the district director to make a report; because if it is not large enough, or .if it is not convenient having regard to the size of the village, we shall have to ask the postmaster to find another place.
With regard to the post office building, the hon. member answered the point when he argued his case. At this time, when material is so scarce, we cannot expect to build many post offices. I must admit that we are far behind in the construction of these buildings because of the war years. We have received three or four hundred requests for new post office buildings; the population of many towns has increased, and a certain number- I will not say too many, because it might
cost us a great deal of money next year-of buildings will have to be erected at points where the revenue is $10,000 or more. The revenue at Rothesay is $7,270. Before the war, and especially before the first world war, if a member of parliament attended the sessions regularly, and I suppose voted correctly, sometimes he could get the public works department to build a post office, but I must say that in my department we are trying to follow one of the rules that have been suggested quite often by hon. gentlemen opposite, a rule called economy. The demand is so great that we have had to make some rules, and we shall not 'be able to build post offices where the postal revenue is not at least $10,000.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: May I ask when that rule was put into effect, because I know post offices that have been built where the revenue is much less than $10,000.


Ernest Bertrand: As I said, before the war there was no fixed and strict rule as there is to-day. I do not say we shall not depart from that rule. We would depart from it if it were necessary in order to give work to more men in the country, and so on; but at the present time, with the shortage of materials, we would1 be severely criticized if we started to put up three or four hundred post office buildings all over Canada. A little patience will surely cure many of these things.
As to the rural routes, we are providing as many as possible, but again we have to consider the cost. We have had to cut down certain rural routes in some parts of the country where perhaps only two or three families were being served in a distance of three or four miles. It was very difficult to cut them down, and we have heard about it ever since, but we must be careful with the people's money. Any time we find a situation where there are four farmers or four postal addresses, as we call it, per mile, we extend the route whenever possible. If the roads are impassable of course we will not do it, but we do extend routes where conditions permit. I must say that in years gone by postmasters general were very kind to the people of New Brunswick, because they have a good share of the rural routes.


Mr. WRIGHT:: I should like to ask a question with regard to the matter which was discussed when these estimates came up first; that is, the postal rates on parcels to the old country. In his breakdown the minister gave us the figure of $2.25 for an 11-pound parcel, of which forty cents went to our post office, sixty cents to Great Britain and $1.25 in shipping charges. Those shipping charges seem

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to me quite excessive, because that would be at the rate of approximately $500 a ton, and at that rate it would cost $12 to ship a bushel of wheat from Saint John to Liverpool. I wonder how long that rate has been in effect. Is it a rate that was put on during the war, and what companies are enjoying this rate? It seems to me excessive, and I should like an explanation.
While I am on my feet, I should like to ask another question. The minister stated that to establish a rural route would require four farmers to the mile. I do not believe that rule applies in western Canada. We would not have any rural routes out there if it required four subscribers to the mile. I am just wondering what the rule is there and what extensions have been made in western Canada in the past year.


Ernest Bertrand: When I was speaking of four farmers per mile I was answering the hon. member for Royal, in regard to the east. Of course I admit that in the west we have to be more generous in this, as in some other things.
The rate for parcels is according to weight and also according to the number of cubic feet. We pay seventy-five cents per cubic foot. As the hon. gentleman knows, these parcels sometimes contain clothing and articles that are quite heavy, and I understand that it takes one and a half or two cubic feet for each parcel.


Percy Ellis Wright: How long have these rates been in effect? Have they been in operation for a number of years?


Ernest Bertrand: Since the beginning of the war.


Percy Ellis Wright: There has been no reduction in the rate since the end of the war?


Ernest Bertrand: There will be, I am sure. We are trying to get better rates, and as soon as the new lines begin to operate we may do so. To-day, as the hon. gentleman knows, all the ships are crowded, and I do not expect any reduction before another five or six months.


Mr. McLURE:: I thought I should rise when I heard some slight criticism regarding the new stamps. However, it was friendly criticism. I wish to say that we appreciate very much the beautiful design on the stamp given to my province, a stamp which happened to be the most expensive one. But, joining with the hon. member for Royal, how much more would we appreciate it if the Postmaster General were to jog the memory
of his colleague, the Minister of Transport, and ask him when he is going to give us a steamer between Tormentine and Borden?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: I should like to offer a suggestion regarding the bonuses the rural carriers are being paid. These bonuses were most acceptable to them and, as other hon. members have said, the cost of living is still going up. It would not be in their interests to have the cut at the present time. The Postmaster General has told us that possibly sixty daj-s after the next session some legislation in this connection will be introduced. I would suggest, however, that the bonus be continued until the expiration of the contracts. When tenders are called there will be an opportunity for re-tendering and for getting probably more than the five per cent bonus. Or perhaps the Postmaster General has something better in mind for the rural carriers.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I have before me a letter from the Peterborough district council of the civil service federation of Canada. On more than one occasion they have suggested that the Postmaster General see to it that the regulations respecting the size of envelopes be enforced, and that the standard size of envelopes be used. They object to the use of small envelopes and cards such as are used at Christmas and other holiday seasons. The sorters and the letter carriers have great difficulty in looking after these outsize letters and post cards. I would ask the Postmaster General to check on this.
On many occasions I have had letters from people in my constituency respecting the stamping of picture post cards by the post office. They tell me that in most cases they receive picture post cards on which the Post Office Department has placed its stamp, thereby rendering the pictures useless. Only the other day I received a beautiful post card from Italy-I believe it was handpainted -and the only postmark on the picture side of the card was a Canadian postmark. The other marks had been placed on the address side. I suggest that a regulation should be put through to stop the defacing of picture post cards.
I believe the question of sub-post offices is of interest to every city of any size where sub-post offices are used. If I mail a letter in the general post office in Peterborough to any one of the sub-post offices in that city I must place a four-cent stamp on it. For instance, if this chamber were the city of
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Peterborough and if my seat were the general post office and I were to post a letter from my seat, sending it to the minister who, we will say, is in a sub-post office, I would have to place a four-cent stamp on it. But if I were to post a letter addressed to the house [DOT]next door to the sub-post office I would have to use only a three-cent stamp. If a party has to call for it at the sub-post office the rate is four cents. This is confusing, because letters are sent out not only by myself but by other people, addressed to sub-post offices. We find that those receiving the letters or calling for them have to pay the additional postage.
Then, according to the district director, an overweight letter sent to a sub-post office must pay two cents for each additional ounce. I believe that all letters posted to any point in a city, whether or not they be addressed to a sub-post office, should pay the same rate of three cents.
I came across an article in the Popular Science magazine of March, 1946, which states that a new federal law in the United States has authorized the postmaster general there to offer anything up to $1,000 to any postal employee in return for a top-grade invention. Such, suggestion must either promote economy or increase efficiency so that it m-ay be adopted by the post office department. As at present understood, there will be no time limit placed on the contest, but the total amount of the reward under the act must not exceed $25,000 in any one year. Further regulations are to be worked out under the postmaster general in that country. I believe that our postal system in Canada works well, as does that in the United States. However, I believe our Postmaster General might take that suggestion into consideration, and see what can be done with it.
What was the total revenue for the post office department last year?


Ernest Bertrand: There was a gross revenue of $83 million.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: During the war, as a war measure postage was increased from three cents to four cents. Does all that four cents go to the 'Post Office Department?
Perhaps one of the reasons the revenue for the department was up lies in the fact that service pins sent out by the Department of National Defence had postage paid on them, as well as an additional ten cents for registration. Do other departments in the government put postage stamps on their mail?


Ernest Bertrand: I appreciate the hon. member's suggestion concerning rewards. Of course in the United States where

the revenue is so tremendous they can offer amounts that we could not afford to offer here.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: You could make the amount smaller.


Ernest Bertrand: Last year we held a conference of district directors and we intend to repeat this conference every year. This was the first time that it was held, and a large number of suggestions were made which we will consider during the year and try to implement. With regard to the cost of a drop letter, which is a letter dropped in a region where there is a post office, I would say that that is three cents. The cost of a forward letter, which has to go to another post office, is four cents.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: This was right in the city, from one post office to another.


Ernest Bertrand: I do not know the exact situation in Peterborough, but I shall ask the superintendent to make a report. I would be surprised if what the hon. member calls a sub-post office is really a subpost office as we understand it in the department. It must be another post office serving another region.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I am referring to sub-office No. 1, which is situated right in Peterborough.


Ernest Bertrand: I will make
inquiries.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Will the minister answer the other question about the envelopes?


Ernest Bertrand: We are trying to settle that question, because the suggestion was made to us at the conference. It would be difficult to have a fixed and drastic rule, but we are trying to work it out by making arrangements with the manufacturers of envelopes.


Mr. GIBSON (Comox-Alberni):: I hesitate to enter into a profound discussion like the one we have had this evening, but I shall do my best. I was particularly interested in the remarks of the hon. members for Broadview and Davenport of the city of Toronto who referred to the mail service there. I should like to point out that, apart from the north pole, I think my riding has probably the slowest service of any riding in Canada. On the west coast of Vancouver island it is desperate. The minimum time for an ordinary first-class letter is six days, while the maximum will run as high as sixteen days. Is there any possibility of the minister allowing members of parliament the privilege of franking their letters for air mail when it is going a thousand

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miles or more from Ottawa? The electors of Comox-Alberni and other British Columbia ridings, and those in other constituencies far away, are entitled to a more rapid service. I would appreciate it if the minister would give this matter consideration.


Mr. JAENICKE:: The matter I wish to bring to the attention of the minister is related to the question raised by the hon. member for Wentworth who referred to the cancellation of the war bonus paid to rural mail carriers. I should like to refer to what are known as mail couriers; that is, the persons who carry the mail from the post office to the train and from the train to the post office. Their contract does not amount to very much, but I understand that recently they received notice that the war bonus was to be cancelled and that the contract would be renewed only on the basis of the figure that prevailed before the war. Most of these mail couriers are old veterans and the amounts they receive are not large. Many of them have no other income, and I think the minister should continue the bonus at least for the time being. I should like to ask whether these mail couriers are in the same position as the rural mail carriers?


Ernest Bertrand: Yes.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I should like to inquire about the policy of the post office with respect to the use of the mails by charitable and other organizations in connection with puzzle contests. Many communities are endeavouring to raise funds for memorial centres by means of puzzle contests. The Post Office Department has ruled, I believe as of February 15, that the mails cannot be used for this purpose. The result is that in some cases those conducting the contest are unable to reply to entrants and they are now being branded as dishonest. I understand that this action is being taken in order to safeguard the public against institutions that might be working dishonestly. Apparently the Post Office Department have decided that, whether or not a contest is actually illegal, if an attempt is made to mislead the public they rule that it is matter which cannot use the mails.
I suggest that this decision ought to be left to the courts. If it is government policy that people are to be protected from illegal contests, then I submit that they should go to the courts to decide whether or not a contest is illegal instead of trying to do through the post office regulations what apparently they feel they cannot do under other legislation. As I say, many of these institutions have lost potential money and certainly their reputation has been injured. Would the minister consider revising that rule?


Ernest Bertrand: The hon. member is referring to the Kamloops recreation centre, or something like that?


Edmund Davie Fulton: That occasioned my question, but I was referring to the matter in a general way.


Ernest Bertrand: In the Post Office Act there is a section which prohibits the use of the mails for lotteries. I must admit that probably we are unable to stop all lotteries immediately they start; sometimes it takes a few weeks and sometimes we do not know that the mails are being used for a lottery. In the last year or so these lotteries have increased tremendously and many complaints have been received from all parts of Canada. I was obliged to make a public announcement in the newspapers about a week or two ago notifying the public that we could not allow the use of the mails for lotteries. We stopped all mail and returned it to the point of mailing. We have been asked by some of these people to give them the letters rather than return them to the senders, but we could not do that because the section is mandatory and we have to obey the law. The gentleman in charge of the Kamloops recreation centre saw me and the officials of the department, and when he left he told us he was satisfied that he could not keep on with what he had been doing.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Admittedly there is power under the Post Office Act in so far as lotteries are concerned. I discussed the matter with the deputy minister, and I am quite satisfied that there is power to rule against an organization running a lottery. My point is that if it is not a lottery, if it is not a game of chance, there is no such power.


Ernest Bertrand: If it is a game of chance it is a lottery.


Edmund Davie Fulton: If the Post Office Department receives a complaint that there is a lottery, that there is something illegal about the contest, then I suggest that, instead of using that arbitrary power in cases of doubt, it should advise the complainant to take the matter to the courts. If it is an illegal contest or gambling game there are statutes prohibiting that sort of thing and the case can be settled in the courts. It seems to me that the Post Office Department is in danger of using one of these regulations for a purpose never intended; that is, to stop games of skill or chance. I am glad' to say that the deputy postmaster general advised me that there was nothing dishonest about this puzzle contest, and I presume he is still of the same opinion. But I am not basing my position
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on an individual case, because I do not think that individual cases should! be made the subject of appeals across the floor of the house. But a principle is involved, and inasmuch as many of these contests may be conducted perfectly honestly and without breaking any of the laws of the country I am suggesting to the Postmaster General that he advise his complainants that if they think there is anything illegal about it there are courts provided for the purpose and he should not enforce a regulation which deprives many communities of funds for useful purposes.


Ernest Bertrand: I do not think we did anything that was arbitrary. I must tell the hon. gentleman that I was crown prosecutor in Montreal for seventeen years and I have seen a lot of these things. We will never stop the mails when they are carrying something which is not contrary to the Post Office Act. Of course I do not agree with the hon. member in his opinion about this particular case. There is no doubt at all in my mind thatdt was a lottery.


Mr. McIVOR:: I think the minister is to be commended for not allowing the mails of Canada to be used1 for sweepstakes or lotteries. I know that the opposition will support him in this because they do not believe in spending a dollar to take a chance on winning several thousand. The minister should feel that the House of Commons is behind him in this, and that a big section of this country will not tolerate lotteries or anything of that sort


Mr. HARKNESS:: For some considerable time past I have had a certain amount of correspondence from the federated association of letter carriers in Calgary. I think the Postmaster General will be relieved to know that I am not going to ask for a new post office or anything like that. During the recess I met a considerable number of these men at their request and found them a most conscientious and earnest group of men who seem to be troubled over certain matters which they were anxious to have brought to the attention of the Postmaster General and parliament. Accordingly I have a few questions to direct to the Postmaster General. First is the matter of retirement of men who have already expressed a wish to retire, provided that superannuation is available for them. This whole subject became a live one amongst them because of a notice which was posted up in the Calgary post office on February 22, 1945, which read:
With a view to creating positions in the postal service for returned soldiers the department is desirous of ascertaining the number of

vacancies which will be created in the near future. While permanent employees are at present required to furnish schedule "J" before they can be retired on superannuation, there is a possibility that some changes may shortly be made in the regulations.
Will all employees who would be interested under these conditions please submit a written request to me at the earliest possible moment?
I would ask the Postmaster General whether any action has been taken with regard to that matter. Apparently up to April of this year nothing further had been done. The notice had been posted up and the men's minds were cohsiderably perturbed. Some put in a request for retirement and others were wondering whether to do so or not. May I have an answer from the minister stating just what the position is now?


Ernest Bertrand: That was done before my time but I suppose I am responsible. It was exploratory'. We wanted to know if it was worth while passing any regulation about it. Very' few answered, according to my information, and it did not materialize in any rule or regulation of any kind.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I take it that nothing further has been done about the matter. Have those who put in their application been told whether they would be retired on superannuation, or have they not?


Ernest Bertrand: I cannot say at the moment. I will look into the matter.


Douglas Scott Harkness: The next question is as to hours of duty. I do not know anything about the hours of duty in the post office; but, so far as I can make out, the position of these men was this. The tour of duty in the postal service is at present on the basis of eight hours a day, while the rest of the civil service enjoys a six and one-half hour day. Their contention is that, as part of the civil service, their tour of duty should be on the same basis, namely, six and one-half hours a day. I do not know whether that is a practical request or whether it could be readily put into execution, but it does seem a bit out of line that these men comprise the only large group in the civil service which works an eight-hour day as compared with six and a half hours for the rest of the service.


Ernest Bertrand: They get higher pay, which is not to be forgotten, than do those who are working a fewer number of hours. They also get a larger increase than the others. Most of them got the maximum increase.


Douglas Scott Harkness: What is the rate of pay of these letter carriers? I have never understood that it was particularly good.


Ernest Bertrand: They start at SI,320 and go up to SI,800, plus the cost of living bonus.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Another matter on their minds is the present system of ninty per cent permanent and ten per cent temporary appointments. Apparently the system used to be that 100 per cent of the appointments would be permanent. I understand that that was done away with; I do not know how long ago. Now ninety per cent are permanents and ten per cent temporaries, and the temporaries do not receive as much pay and are not eligible for superannuation benefits. Is that rule still in effect, and, if so, how long is it to be kept in effect? Or is it a permanent regulation?


Ernest Bertrand: During the
war we were not allowed to make permanent appointments. We had to take on temporaries because we wanted to replace these men by returned soldiers. Some employees in certain categories were made permanent. But we keep at least ten per cent as a cushion for an increase of work. In most of the post offices the work fluctuates according to the period of the year, and it has always been the practice to keep a cushion to meet changes in the amount of work.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I hardly think that is a satisfactory explanation. I know of at least one case of a man at Calgary who has been on the temporary staff for twelve or fifteen years.


Ernest Bertrand: He may not have passed the examinations. To be permanent one has to pass the required examinations, and some of these men have not done so.


Douglas Scott Harkness: There is no question of his not having passed the examination. He has been on the job, but he has not been able to enjoy the benefits of permanency in spite of the fact that he has been working there for twelve to fifteen years. It seems to me that a system like that is a poor one, and calculated to break down the morale of the employee.


Ernest Bertrand: If the hon. gentleman will give me the name of this person I will look into the case and give him a direct answer.


Douglas Scott Harkness: It is a system which should be done away with. If a man is doing a particular job he should be put in that job and enjoy the pay and status of that job, and if he is not able to do it, get rid of him and engage somebody else. A man should not be
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kept hanging around in a position where more or less he does not know what the score is or what is going to happen to him.
The only other point I wish to mention is connected with statutory holidays, which apparently, so far as post office employees are concerned, were cancelled shortly after the commencement of the war. I should like to know whether those statutory holidays have been restored to these men, and, if not, when they will be.


Paul Joseph James Martin: They have been.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I want, if I can, to get an answer to this question.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I want to say a word about this debate. I think it is time we knew where we stand. I heard last week in this house nothing but the cry, with which I have a lot of sympathy, for "economy, economy, economy". Now we have a different cry, for additional expenditures in regard to all the departments of government. We cannot reconcile these two things; and I think, if we are to finish this session in a reasonable time, we should get on with this work in a reasonable manner and conclude these debates.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Chairman, I take objection to the remarks of the Minister of Veterans Affairs.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There is no personal reflection.	.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I was not in any instance calling for greater expenditure; I was presenting the complaints of a certain number of my constituents, which I consider it is my duty to do, in this house. I take strong exception to the minister making that an excuse for saying that I, or any other members of this party, have been talking economy in the past and are now talking with exactly the opposite effect.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I assure my hon. friend that there was no personal reflection.


Ernest Bertrand: I am sorry that I did not understand at once the last question of the hon. member. The holidays have now been restored.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Thank you.


Mr. ARCHIBALD:: I should like to bring up a couple of questions at this time. They are not related, but in order to facilitate business I will put them together. This does not call for expenditure, either.
I am in much the same spot as the hon. member for Comox-Alberni, in that I come from an area of the west coast which has
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poor facilities for the delivery of mail, namely Queen Charlotte island. There is a boat that goes in every ten days. The people cannot mail on the same boat the answers to the letters they receive, so that there is a lapse of twenty days between a letter being sent and answered. There is an aeroplane service in there now, but it is not on a scheduled basis. As I understand the rule regarding transport of mail, it must be done by aeroplanes on schedule, not just on charter work. But to all intents and purposes these aeroplanes are on a regular schedule, although not listed as such. The people at, say Massett, would like to have air mail now that aeroplanes are calling regularly there. I have no doubt that it would help the company which has inaugurated that service. But when one inquires of the department they say that there are certain regulations which, the air transport authorities demand, that the service be in operation six months, and so on and so forth. We are under an economy of private enterprise where we have "get and go". I should like to see that maxim applied to the Post Office Department. Cannot they brush away the red tape in a special case in an isolated area? Granted that you must have a lot of red tape in highly congested areas where there are transcontinental lines and other facilities, here you have an isolated area which should not be subject to the general rule. I hope the department will look into the matter and cut the red tape, so that these planes can pack mail up to these people at Queen Charlotte, Massett and Port Clements.
I should also like to bring to the attention of the minister the problem of the people of Atlin. I am not going to ask him to spend any money, but this is a case of a few nails. They have a building there, but it is not adequate for the purpose. There is very little standing space in the post office, and they have to stand outside in the winter time while their mail is being sorted, but there would be plenty of space in the post office if the wickets were moved back. There is an old Indian office which is not in use that could be made into a general waiting room for these people, so that they could stay inside and be comfortable in the winter weather. Outside; the sidewalk slants into the post office, and there is a pool of water there; they have to be regular puddle jumpers to get in, and if there was just a shanty roof put over it, it would save a good deal of wet feet and so on which is very hard on elderly people. I hope the minister will give consideration to these two matters.


Mr. HANSELL:: I appreciate the remarks of the Minister of Veterans Affairs in wanting to get on with the business of the house, but I understand it is the business of the house to debate these matters, even though after we have spoken we do not convince anybody; and that is not personal either. The minister has a habit of hitting a person in the solar plexus and then saying, "Nothing personal; nothing personal about that!"
I want to ask one question, and then you can pass all the post office estimates that you want. The minister was talking some little while ago about rates for overseas parcels. I am not so much concerned about the rates, but the weight of these parcels is limited to eleven pounds each, and of those eleven pounds there is a limit of seven pounds of food. I could never see why that should be. The people in England particularly are in need of food; yet when we wrap up a parcel, in order to get full advantage of the eleven pounds we have to stuff it with a lot of other things because we are not allowed to send eleven pounds of food. Could the minister not change that regulation a little? Then, I believe they are allowed only one parcel a month. There are ways of getting around this, by sending one parcel to your sister and another to your brother and another to your grandmother; but why is each person allowed only one parcel a month?
I have one more question. Has the minister ever given any consideration to the subject of anonymous letters passing through the mails? I do not know what he can do about them; but may I go so far as to suggest that if it were made a criminal offence, perhaps people would not take the chance in sending anonymous letters through the mails. I always assume that when letters are sent anonymously there is mischief somewhere, and if something could be done to curb that practice it would be a good thing. But I am particularly interested in the matter of food for people in England.


Ernest Bertrand: I explained a few minutes ago that the limitation of food to seven pounds per parcel and the limitation of one parcel per month are restrictions imposed by the receiving nation. None of these restrictions is imposed by us, and since we are sending the parcels we have to abide by the rules which are imposed on us; otherwise they would not be delivered.


Ernest George Hansell: Then the receiving nations should change their rules.


Ernest Bertrand: I believe as the hon. gentleman does, but the receiving nations do not.

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Mr. STOKES:: Under the heading "departmental administration", there are one or two questions I should like to ask the minister. I do so with some fear and trembling because of the humour expressed a few moments ago by the leader of the house. I wish to compliment the Postmaster General on the reply which he gave earlier to the hon. member for Kootenay West, when he said that so far as he was concerned veterans would have pre-' ference in post office matters. I compliment him because, since I came into the house a few years ago, I remember an instance in my county when two fine veterans of the first war applied for a post office position, and a young man who had never seen service got the office. It was something of which I was ashamed to speak.
The matter to which I wish to refer specifically has to do with thickly populated suburban areas outside a city which has a letter carrier service. The area is adjacent to the city but not within its municipal boundaries. The people in that area have to go a long way to the post office. In the one instance I have in mind one rural route goes through the area. Since the population is growing, there is a demand for some service. What is the governing factor in that regard?
Another matter to which I wish to refer is the extension of rural routes. Frequently we find a good class of farmer or two living up a road which would be called a dead-end, which means that if the courier went up he would have to retrace his steps. These people are retepayers and are just as much entitled to postal service as the other people. It is quite a hardship for them to come out and get their mail. Perhaps they may get a letter which requires a reply. They have to go back before the man returns the next day; they cannot stand on the corner waiting. These are matters of policy on which I should like to have the minister's opinion.


Mr. WHITE (Middlesex-East):: I wish to comment a little on the work of the post office. I listened with interest to the discussion on the postage stamps. I was going to commend the minister for doing uphill work with a downhill plough.
I also wish to comment on the extension of rural routes. In my riding I have an application for the extension of a route, but -most of the people live within a half mile of an already established route, and while there were seventeen within the half mile the route could not be extended which seems too bad.
Then there is the question of drop letters. In London, for instance, a drop letter is delivered for three cents. Many people in
London mail a letter thinking that, because it is in London, it will be delivered for three cents; but when the farmer out on the rural route gets it he has to pay two cents more for it. I think that might well be changed.
I also appreciate what will be done with regard to the wartime bonus for rural mail carriers.


Mr. HAZEN:: May I revert for a moment to the new issue of stamps? How were the designs selected? Who made the designs? Were a number of designs submitted and considered and then a choice made? I ask these questions because I am one of those people who are critical of the designs which appear on our Canadian stamps. If you compare the designs of the Canadian stamps of the past number of years with the designs of some of the stamps of Nova Scotia or New Brunswick prior to confederation, or some of the other provinces prior to confederation, or if you compare the designs of our present-day stamps with some of the designs of the Canadian stamps after confederation you will find that really they are not comparable. They do not compare in design, in colour or in texture. It seems to me that more consideration might be given to the designs of our Canadian stamps in order to make them more artistic and more effective.
I do not know whether it is a good plan to have designs depicting different parts of Canada. Some complaint has been made about that this evening. Some complaint has been made that there was no design for Nova Scotia or New Brunswick. I am not going to harp on that this evening. It seems to me that perhaps we might show more imagination or more vision if we are to depict these regional designs. We might perhaps very well picture the future developments of our provinces. So far as New Brunswick and Nova Scotia are concerned, the minister might put on one of these stamps a design showing the new Chi-bucto canal which I presume is to be built before very long, or the power development on the Petitcodiac river or the new-


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Canso ferry.


Mr. MICHAUD:: Canso bridge.


Douglas King Hazen: Or the new airport at Clover Valley, near Saint John, which I understand is to be constructed before very long. Another good design would be one depicting the free port which will be established at the port of Saint John in the near future.


Ernest Bertrand: I must admit that the hon. member for St. John-Albert has a good imagination, but if we were making
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these designs we might be told by the Canadian people that we were discounting the future too much.
With regard to the designs, they were made by our officials. I must tell the hon. gentleman that among the philatelists our stamps are considered the best in the world.


Douglas King Hazen: I do not agree with them.


Ernest Bertrand: Well, I shall give the hon. gentleman an example. Recently the collection of the late President Roosevelt was put up for sale by a broker in New York and the stamp which brought the largest amount of money was a Canadian stamp which was issued during the war. It brought $1,167 out of a collection which sold for over $227,000. I give that to the hon. gentlemen as an example, and if I hold my present position for very long I shall probabl'y be able to give him other examples.


Edmund Davie Fulton: It is interesting to note that as a rule the thing which makes a stamp valuable is that there is something wrong with it. I am not sure that it is a good thing to say that the Canadian stamps are the most valuable in the world. Does the Postmaster General know what was wrong with this particular stamp?


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Reverting from new stamps to old ones, may I ask the minister what was the total revenue of the philatelic division during the last fiscal year? W hat was the cost of operating it? If the minister has these figures I should like to have them. There are several other questions I should like to ask later.


Ernest Bertrand: I shall have those figures in a moment.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Very well. Then, may I ask the minister a more important question. Of the total number of employees of the Post Office Department, what percentage is temporary? I ask this question because I should like some information in regard to this policy of the Post Office Department, and I believe some other government departments, of keeping ten per cent of the employees on a temporary basis instead of giving them permanent places. I wish to follow that question with one as to the number of permanent appointments made in the Post Office Department during the last fiscal year. While his deputies are obtaining that information, I wonder if the minister could tell the committee just how severe the fluctuations are in the revenues of the Post Office Department. Do they fluctuate pretty well with the national income of the country, or is there a relatively 
steady flow of revenue to his department? If the fluctuation is not severe I should think the ordinary mortality and retirement rate would allow for men who have served for three or, at the most, five years having their positions made permanent.


Ernest Bertrand: The revenue does fluctuate, at least to a certain extent. In the Post Office Department we have a barometer of business in Canada which is recognized as pretty good and sound. It is the total of the money orders and postal notes sold each year. I may tell the hon. gentleman that this year we have the highest amount in our history. These postal notes and money orders are sent by people who do not ordinarily send cheques; that is, the small people, and this year that total is S498,000,000. In the years of the depression it fluctuated a great deal, I understand. The money we received for mail transit last year increased quite considerably also, owing to the fact that there is more international correspondence. So that there are a number of factors which make the revenue fluctuate quite a bit.


Mr. MATTHEWS (Brandon):: In regard to the question of sending parcels overseas. I was told only yesterday by a thoroughly reliable source that an 11-pound parcel sent to Greece from Canada requires the payment of $3.10, but if it is sent from the United States the charge is only half that much, or $1.55. An air mail letter from Canada to Greece costs sixty cents; from the'United States it costs from twenty to thirty cents. We have all heard of the dire shortage of food in Greece, where the need is perhaps as great as or greater than in any other part of the world, and I believe that some steps might very well be taken to make it easier and cheaper for the sons of Greece in this country to send food to their starving relatives at home. If my information be correct, as I believe it is, I suggest that the department, which I have alw-ays found ready to act on what they believed to be reasonable suggestions, might look into this matter and see if it cannot be corrected.


Ernest Bertrand: I do not question the statement made by the hon. gentleman. The United States have direct lines ploughing the ocean between Greece and their seaports. We have not, so that we have to pay for the transit, which they do not have to do.


John Bracken: W'hat is the policy of the department with respect to the construction of new post offices? I gather that at the moment you are not doing much at it?

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Ernest Bertrand: No.


John Bracken: In the estimates before us I see nothing for capital expenditures. What is the pdlicy of the department with respect to the construction of new post offices?


Ernest Bertrand: The expenditure on buildings is, of course, made by the Department of Public Works. We requisition them and they build the post offices for us. We have established a rule, which is not inflexible, that we would construct post offices in towns having a net revenue of $10,000 or more; and as soon as we start building those we shall begin with the largest towns or cities and work down. That is our rule to-day, to build only where the net revenue is $10,000 or more.
I must answer the question asked by the hon. member for Rosedale in regard to the revenue of the philatelic service. For the year 1945 the number of orders received was 1,873, which brought a total of $142,740.


John Bracken: The Postmaster General says the Department of Public Works constructs the post offices. I presume they do so at the request or on the recommendation of the Post Office Department?


Ernest Bertrand: Yes.


John Bracken: Are you planning on building any post offices this fiscal year?


Ernest Bertrand: A few, in places where it is absolutely necessary. Those amounts will be provided in the supplementary estimates of the Department of Public Works.
I hope hon. members will understand that if they ask me questions in regard to post offices that are not very large I may not be able to answer them until I get the particulars from the officials of my department. I have in mind particularly post offices like the one mentioned by an hon. member from British Columbia. Every time a matter of this kind is brought to our attention we ask for a report from the superintendent of the district, and if the building is not what it should be we see that better service is given, especially where the postmaster has to furnish the premises.


John Bracken: Would the minister be prepared to say, perhaps at a later time, the amount of business done at Flin Flon, Manitoba?


Ernest Bertrand: Yes, I have that now. For the fiscal year 1944-45, which are the latest figures we have, the revenue was $32,667.


John Bracken: Then, under the policy of the department that town would be in line for
the construction of a post office, as soon as you commence construction on any scale?
Mr. BERTRAND (Laurier) [DOT] Yes. We have a list of those places, and I remember that Flin Flon is on the list.


John Bracken: The reason I ask is that for twenty years it was in the constituency I represented. They have made representations to me to see that their position is kept before the department. It is a city of ten thousand, doing a business of $30,000 a year, and the post office is still in very small, rented quarters. They tell me that place is in what the department calls a class A district. I presume they have districts classed as A, B, C and so on, and that class A means the class of towns which will be first to have buildings constructed when you decide to go ahead with them. Is that right?


Ernest Bertrand: That is correct.


Mr. CAMPBELL:: During the war there have not been many extensions of rural routes. It seems to me the department should now consider extending rural routes into districts where they are badly needed. I hope the minister will give encouragement to the doing of this work.
How are revenue postmasters appointed? Are they appointed by the civil service commission? Is there any way of getting superannuation for postmasters who have given many years of service?


Ernest Bertrand: Revenue postmasters in offices making more than $3,000 in revenue are appointed by the civil service commission. Under that amount they are appointed upon recommendation. In every instance where there is a returned man we are giving preference to him, if he wants the job.


Mr. BURTON:: You are supposed to.


Ernest Bertrand: We always do.


Joseph William Burton: I know cases where, not many years ago, that did not happen.


Ernest Bertrand: That was "not many years ago".


Alexander Maxwell (Max) Campbell: Has the department
considered any scheme for providing superannuation for the postmasters in smaller post offices?


Ernest Bertrand: This is a matter of policy which is being discussed to-day by the association of revenue postmasters. I do not know how it could be done. I understand that it would be difficult of accomplishment, but the question is being studied.
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Mr. WARREN:: It is only on rare occasions that I bring to the floor of the house problems concerning my constituency. During this question period, however, there are two or three matters I should like to bring to the attention of the Postmaster General. The first of these is the need for additional letter carriers in the town of Pembroke. I am asking the Postmaster General to look into the situation there with a view to rectifying what I think is a grievance.
Then, has the minister up to this point given any consideration to taking care of people living on side-lines on which perhaps only two families live? I have always been confronted with the ruling that in order to have an extension there must be at least three families on three-quarters of a mile.


Ernest Bertrand: I said a few minutes ago that we were asking to have four families per mile, or one-quarter of a mile per family. Hon. members will realize that we cannot deliver rural mail in a place, for instance, where there might be only one family in three miles. That would cost too much. In such instances we ask the persons affected to come to a point near at hand where the rural mail passes, and to have their box at that point so that they can be served.
I shall look into the facts concerning Pembroke. The hon. member will understand that we give a letter-carrier service to towns with a revenue of $40,000 or more. If the hon. member wishes to set the facts out in a letter to me I shall be pleased to look into the matter.


Ralph Melville Warren: In my constituency there are numerous cases of side-lines where perhaps only two families live, the nearest of which might be within half a mile of the comer. However it is a considerable hardship for those people to have to walk to that corner in all kinds of weather and to have to wait for the mailman. The mailman is not always on time.
Now that the war is over, I believe it would not be unreasonable to ask the Postmaster General to give relief in cases of that kind. I have numerous ceases which would fall into this class in my constituency. They have been getting their mail under these conditions through all these years, and their annoyance is growing all the time. The idea of having to walk half a mile through the snow or rain for their mail, when their neighbours have their mail delivered to their gates, does not appeal to them. After all, it is not so long ago that rural mail delivery was introduced, and I should think the time has come to 
extend the service. I suggest that this matter might be given most serious consideration so as to help these people who must endure considerable hardship in getting their mail.


Mr. CRUICRSHANK:: Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question? I have been trying all night to do so, and I want to go home. Did I understand the minister to say that some small town in Manitoba is going to have a post office before Chilliwack gets one? Chilliwack has a revenue of $88,000, and it has the poorest service given in any post office on the North American continent. We have been endeavouring to get action from the minister's department for more than a year. I might add that the constituency is the best in Canada.
Despite our efforts to get action from the department, we have got absolutely nothing but a lot of very nice letters-which do not deliver the mail. The people have to stand in queues for three hours to get their mail in a post office bringing in a revenue of $88,000. We are told we cannot use the basement of the building because of something that happened many years ago in connection with the introduction of a stamp. And, by the way, I do not want a stamp, with the picture of a peach on it, or anything else. All I want is service for the post office. If the minister cannot answer to-night, I am not in a hurry. There is no hurry now to get the estimate through; we have been waiting all day. The minister knows all about the situation at Chilliwack.


Ernest Bertrand: This is a place which is on the list, and' which will be taken into serious consideration.
Mr. MaOlNNIS: Earlier in the evening when a question was asked about rural mail carriers I believe the minister answered that sometimes when tenders were called the lowest tender was less than the work could be done for. Under those circumstances, what is the policy of the department?


Ernest Bertrand: We know from experience that some tenderers are not going to make much money. But with the law as it is to-day, if the person who tenders is able and has the necessary apparatus, horses, automobiles or trucks to fulfil his contract, we have to give it to him. There is nothing in the law giving us discretion to eliminate the lowest tenderer.


Angus MacInnis: But in a case where obviously the tenderer cannot fulfil the contract, and representations are made to the Post Office Department, how is the matter dealt with?

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Ernest Bertrand: We advertise for new contracts.


Mr. BENTLEY:: I should like to ask a question of the minister, and before doing so I want to tell him that I am not going to ask for anything on a stamp, not even the C.C.F. insignia. In reply to a question asked by the hon. member for Renfrew North, the minister said that a post office would require to have $40,000 a year revenue or more to warrant a mail-carrier service. In the important city of Swift Current in southwestern Saskatchewan the revenue is over $40,000 a year, and has been over that point for many years, and yet we have no mail-carrier service. It is not because we have not asked for it. A plebiscite was held in the town and the people asked for it. The Legion branch has asked for it in order that three or four men might be given work in performing a useful service for the city. Since we have a revenue of $40,000 and over, I should like to know what other reason there is for our not having this service.


Ernest Bertrand: When I said that we were giving carrier service to towns that had a revenue of $40,000 or more I did not mention that there are other conditions to be considered. A town must have at least
2,000	points of call because it takes that many to keep two or three letter carriers busy. I would not say that there should be a sidewalk for every foot over which a letter carrier would walk, but we do ask that the letter carrier be able to do his job without having to face possible illness owing to mud and water and so forth.


Thomas John Bentley: Mud does not bother us a great deal. In the last survey it was found there were 1,600 points of call on sidewalks, and there were also some other points of call on cinder walks. Those walks do not get very muddy. The 1,600 points of call would keep a couple of men busy.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mail leaving the parliamentary post office does not reach Toronto until the second day after mailing. I do not see why there should be any delay because mail is sent through the parliamentary post office.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
262. Railway mail service, $13,299,000.
Frank Eric Jaenicke: Could the minister break down this item and tell us how much he is going to pay to each company, and the rate that was paid during the last fiscal year?


Ernest Bertrand: In 1945-46 we paid the Canadian National $3,660,000, and
the Canadian Pacific, $4,037,000; we paid other lines $413,000, and there is another item of $2,396, making a total of $8,113,598.


Frank Eric Jaenicke: Will the figure for this year be about the same?


Ernest Bertrand: The estimates for this year show a decrease of $1,352,279.


Frank Eric Jaenicke: Do you pay the same rate to the Canadian National as you pay to the Canadian Pacific?


Ernest Bertrand: Yes, exactly the same.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
263. Air and land mail services, $18,571,767.
Edmund Davie Fulton: What is the basic rate per mile for air mail?


Ernest Bertrand: 1-5 mills per pound mile.


Edmund Davie Fulton: What was the previous rate?


Ernest Bertrand: Forty-two
cents per mile and we changed the base completely to a pound-mile base.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I know of a firm which made application for an air route, but they were turned down, one reason being that they could not bid low enough to get an airmail contract. This particular concern points out that when the T.C.A. first started operations the rate was nearly four times what it is to-day and the present rate makes it difficult for small concerns to get going. Apparently the T.C.A. received -6 cents per mile throughout the first four years of its operations. At the present time companies other than the T.C.A. are receiving in the neighbourhood of [DOT]5 cents per mile. Is there any distinction in the rates in British Columbia and other provinces?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am informed that there is none whatever.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Will consideration be given - to increasing the rate in view of the fact that apparently it took a -5 rate for the T.C.A. to get going, whereas it is now -15, which makes it difficult for these small lines to get going?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: As acting Postmaster General I shall be glad to bring the representations made by my hon. friend to the attention of my colleague and I am sure they will receive every possible consideration.


William Scottie Bryce: I have one question to ask and I do not know whether I should have asked it of the last Postmaster General or
440S
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the new one. Has consideration been given to providing an airmail service to Norway-House, Berens River, Grand Rapids and Warrens Landing during the winter time? It is essential that this service be provided.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: We are giving continuous and anxious and sustained consideration to the development of these routes.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I am told that on many occasions rural mail has been held up because it sometimes takes half an hour to open the mail bags because the locks will not open. At times they have to use a hammer and a few cuss words to get them open.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That may be the fault of the receiver as well as the dispatcher.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I wonder if the Postmaster General would check up on that and have the locks fixed.


Ernest Bertrand: I must tell the hon. gentleman that during the war we were unable to have bags made out of good cotton and we used almost anything we could find. There was a great increase in the mail during the war and we had difficulty in getting not only locks but everything that goes with the bags. The hon. gentleman will see that we are asking for quite a large amount of money this year to replace our stock of bags. I am not surprised that something might have happened because we had to take almost anything during the war.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I worked on one of these locks for half an hour, and at last had to use a hammer and then got the bag open.


Douglas Scott Harkness: In the railways and shipping committee when dealing with T.C.A. there was considerable questioning in connection with the rate which was paid by the post office to T.C.A. for air mail. T.C.A. seemed quite happy over the rate they are now getting, although it has been reduced from former years, because they are no longer under the thumb of the Post Office Department. as to the flights they must make. Is the Post Office Department equally satisfied with the rate which they pay to T.C.A.? I have not the figures, but I understand that that rate is considerably in excess of the rate paid in the United States for air mail. I notice in the estimates that the total amount for airmail service is greater than the amount for railway mail service, although the distances are extremely disproportionate.


Ernest Bertrand: We have only one route, and that is east-west or west-east. The post office wanted to help T.C.A.

establish itself when it was just starting up in Canada. Now it has passed that stage and we have made a contract on a pound-mile basis, which is the logical way of paying for air-mail service. We are paying a good price, one and a half mills per pound-mile, which is quite a lot. I must admit that it is more than is being paid for express and more than is paid for passengers. Passengers pay $6 for 200 pounds going 100 miles, which works out at about 3/10ths of a mill per pound-mile. We are paying for the air mail 1-5 mills per pound-mile. But that is on a decreasing scale. It comes down in four or five years at the end of the contract to -9 mills. We are reducing our airmail payment by about $50,000 a month.


Alexander Maxwell (Max) Campbell: For the last two years we spent $350,000 a year on mail bags, and this year the expenditure is $650,000. Would the minister give us some idea of the number of bags purchased and the reason for this large increase in expenditure?


Ernest Bertrand: During the war we could not manufacture or get any mail bags, and those conditions prevailed for five years, so that we did run short quite a bit. We have to replenish what we call our bank of bags. In Toronto alone during the Christmas season it takes 600,000 bags to handle the mail. Of course that is the largest post office we have in Canada.


Angus MacInnis: They believe in Santa Claus in Toronto.


Ernest Bertrand: We have to replenish our bank and the bags are then distributed amongst the post offices throughout Canada. Last year we had to send out some of the mail in empty flour bags. During the Christmas season we shipped thirty-five carloads of mail from Toronto and, as I said, it took 600,000 bags just for that city. We have asked for tenders from the different cotton mills, and the only company which accepted a contract to furnish us with 10,000 yards of cotton per week was the Dominion Textile company. It will take at least six months before we have the number of bags we would have in ordinary times.


Alexander Maxwell (Max) Campbell: How many yards of cotton does it take for a bag? That would give us some idea of how much a bag costs.


Ernest Bertrand: The bags cost about $2. We buy the bag, the lock and everything, and we have the bags manufactured by two different companies, one in Montreal and one in Toronto.

Supply-Public Works


John Lambert Gibson: I am happy to be in agreement with the hon. member for Skeena for once when he brought up the subject of airmail service to the Queen Charlotte islands, which is relevant to conditions existing in my own riding. When I go to the Post Office Department I find a courteous minister and courteous assistants, but when you mention airmail service on some route where none is operating they look at you like a banker from whom you are trying to borrow money. I would point out to the minister that in providing an airmail service for these frontier points he is doing a great service for Canada, and I do not think we should penalize them to the extent we have in the past and expect them to put up with a lot of disabilities. Some help is needed from the dominion government. I should like the minister to give the assurance that negotiations are still proceeding with the Canadian Pacific and also with the charter lines that the hon. member for Skeena mentioned.


Ernest Bertrand: We are negotiating with these companies.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Pensions and Other Benefits-
265. To provide for the payment of compassionate allowances to employees injured -while in the performance of their duties, or to other persons injured while performing duties in any way connected with the postal service, or in protecting His Majesty's mails, or to the dependents of such employees or other persons who may be killed -while so engaged; payments to be made only on the specific authority of the governor in council, $5,000.
Angus MacInnis: Will the minister explain this item? I ask for an explanation because the amount is so insignificant in view of the large number of employees in the Post Office Department. Would the minister also say whether the employees of the Post Office Department come under the Government Employees Compensation Act?


Ernest Bertrand: Yes, they do.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Chief architect's branch-
29\. Public buildings generally-repairs, alterations, fittings and improvements, $300,000.
Gordon Graydon: I think this item includes the building which seemed to be going by so quickly and which I wanted to catch as it went by. Are there any anticipated changes or improvements in the near future under contemplation by the government with respect to the buildings here?


Hon. ALPHONSE FOURNIER (Minister of Public Works):: 
Alphonse Fournier: No, not this item.


John Bracken: Where in these estimates is the item for post offices?
Mr. FOURNIER (Hull); They are pretty much all along. It is under "public buildings"; we have passed a good many of them as we went along this evening, and I was surprised that I did not get more requests, but really this year it has been the policy of the government not to put up new post offices. In certain instances we may acquire sites for future post offices, but it was represented to the Department of Public Works that the government wanted to keep all the materials we had for construction of housing, and we have taken a back seat this year and did not recommend any construction, so that the government's housing programme can be proceeded with. Next year we hope we shall have some new buildings. We know the state in which some of our buildings are right now; we know that new buildings are needed in many places. We admit that. But we thought the first priority should go to housing, particularly housing for veterans.


John Bracken: Is the minister saying that there is no provision in his estimates for the construction of new post offices in this fiscal year?


Alphonse Fournier: Well, I would not know exactly. I have in mind right now only one case where we may let the contract this year, and that would be at Sault Ste. Marie. We are acquiring the site now and preparing the plans and having specifications made, and that will not be only for a post office; it will be a general public building. I was out there myself to make a personal inquiry, and I find that a building is needed not only for postal services but for all the government services we have in the district. We are repairing a good many post offices this year, but I do not believe that any contract for new construction will be let during the fiscal year. As I have said, we shall acquire sites and prepare plans, but as to actual construction I do not suppose that before next spring we can get materials. I have in mind an instance where
Supply-Public Works

we gave out a contract, not for a building, but for a wharf, and we could not even get timber to proceed with that work at this time.


John Bracken: Before the last items of the minister's estimates are passed, will he give us a definite statement as to what post offices, if any, he contemplates building this year? He has said, practically none. What sites has he purchased, expecting to build immediately, and what post offices has he plans for constructing?


Alphonse Fournier: If my hon. friend will refer to pages 34 and following of the estimates he will see that, in Nova Scotia, we have at Halifax a postal station, North End, $25,000. and a Halifax office building, revote last year $50,000, total $100,000. All this work will not be done during the current year, and it is only a partial vote; it is not a complete vote for the whole building. In New Brunswick, there is Saint John, office building, revote of $50,000 from last year to this year; Saint John post office, alterations, and Sussex public building, $15,000 et cetera. As you go over the list you will find every item as to which expenses will be made this year, on pages 34 to 38 inclusive and part of page 3ft. Everything is there, and I cannot go farther than is mentioned on these pages in these items.


John Bracken: The hon. member has said that in some cases this is a revote of moneys appropriated last year. How are we to know whether this is just a figure in a book this year, or whether it is to be a post office?


Alphonse Fournier: It is all mentioned. As to going ahead, the session last year closed on December 16, if I recall well, and the votes which were passed at that time could not 'be expended on account of the late season. We now have the revote in these estimates; but part of that money may have been spent in preparing the plans and specifications.


John Bracken: Then the minister does expect to spend all the money for which he is now asking for these purposes in this fiscal year?


Alphonse Fournier: I cannot even go as far as that, because I cannot tell right now if, even with the projects we contemplate, we shall have the necessary materials to proceed. We may not expend all the money that is asked for in these items: it will depend on the supply of labour and materials.


Thomas Langton Church: Under item 234, public buildings, I want to ask the minister what he intends to do to improve these facilities in our

city.' If we take into consideration the revenue the department derives, something better might be expected. The various departments of government are scattered over a distance of seven or eight miles, and there seems to be no way of finding out how to get in touch with them by telephone. I have tried for many hours to locate particular offices for which I was looking. There should be a general public building. The need of such a provision in our city is urgent. The offices are old and dilapidated. Surely, with the revenues obtained by the post office we should have some new equipment, because business men are complaining that they cannot find offices which, like the income tax branch, are spread all over the city. Contrast this with any of the public utilities. The Bell Telephone, the gas company and all these other corporations provide fine offices for the convenience of the public. I can tell you, although the Minister of Veterans Affairs may smile, that it is not good enough. The business men of the country are kicking, and I should like to know if there is to be an improvement.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Progress reported.
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Wednesday, August 7, 1946