1945-11-19

PRIME MINISTER ATTLEE


[Stage Direction]
Hon. IAN A. MACKENZIE (for the Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, we have just had a fine inspirational and constructive address delivered to both houses of parliament by the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. I would therefore move on behalf of the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King), seconded by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Bracken), the following resolution:
That the address of the Right Honourable Clement R. Attlee, Prime Minister of Great
Prime Minister Attlee
[Stage Direction]
Britain, delivered before the members of the Senate and of the House of Commons of Canada in the chamber of the House of Commons on November 19, 1945, 'be included in the House of Commons Debates and form part of the permanent records of this parliament.
Mr.  M. J. COLD WELL@Rosetown-Biggar: Before the motion is put, I should like to express, on behalf of my colleagues and myself, appreciation of the visit of the Prime Minister of Great Britain. We have listened to a splendid address, one which expresses clearly the aspirations and hopes not only of a political party but also of the common people of Great Britain. It is fitting that this motion should be made and the address in the House of Commons Debates recorded. I am sure that we all join in wishing the Prime Minister and his party a swift and safe journey to-night across the Atlantic.


Mr. JOHN BRACKEN (Leader of the Opposition):: I wish to express to the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) and to the members of the government my pleasure at having been given the honour of seconding this resolution. I understood when it was proposed that there would be no formal discussion of it to-day. Reference having been made to it, however, may I say that we all felt proud that our distinguished guest of this afternoon should have found it possible to come to Canada on his way home from Washington where he visited the President of the United States.
On behalf of the party I lead I wish to add my word of welcome to that already extended by the Prime Minister of Canada, by this parliament, by the Canadian people, and just a moment ago by the leader of the C.CfF. party, to the Prime Minister of Great Britain. In doing so I wish to say that when the Prime Minister of Britain visits Canada we look upon him not as the leader of a section of that nation, but as the first citizen of his country. We were all thrilled with the message he gave us to-day. I should like to think that I speak for all the members of this parliament when I ask our distinguished guest to take back to his own people our admiration of the way in which they have stood up to the problems of the last six years, and I know we shall equally admire them for the way in which they will face the difficult problems' of the peace.
If I may be permitted to do so, I would ask the Prime Minister of Britain to take a message to our own boys who are still over there; to say to them that we are doing our best to get them back as soon as possible, and to be ready when they do come back to have places for them where they can fit again into our civil life.

I am very happy to associate myself with the Minister of Veterans Affairs and other members of the house in the resolution just moved.
Mr. SOLON E. LOW (Peace River): It gives me great pleasure to express, on behalf of the group I represent, our thanks to the Prime Minister for having arranged for the Right Hon. Mr. Attlee to visit this country and to speak to the houses of parliament. I wish, sir, through you to express' our thanks to the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom for the splendid speech he gave this afternoon. I feel that Canada has been privileged by this visit of the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, and this house has been signally honoured by the address which the right hon. gentleman delivered to us to-day. Through his speech and his visit, he has strengthened those invisible ties that bind Canada and the other parts of the British commonwealth into a unity that is unique on the face of this earth. It is the wonder of all mankind that that unity of purpose has been able to endure through the years in the face of the trials and difficulties which have beset us, and notwithstanding the dissimilarity among the parts and peoples that make up the great commonwealth to which Canada belongs.
After what we have heard from the right hon. gentleman, it must be emphasized again that unity does not mean uniformity. In the British commonwealth we have the most effective known demonstration of the type of organization which is requisite for enduring peace. This free association of countries and peoples can lead the way to peace if we continue to work together, and such visits as we have had from prime ministers of Britain will, I am sure, promote this cooperation.
We shall stand together in harmony if we face the future with vision and humility. Our commonwealth can face the world secure in the knowledge that our example will go far towards removing international fears, suspicions and differences. Particularly will this be so if together we work out fundamental changes in financial and trade policies which will make it possible for each member of the commonwealth to draw upon the resources of the others for the things it needs, and if at the same time we so order our affairs that the weak and needy nations may receive, from the various parts of the commonwealth, food, clothing and other materials necessary for the relief and immediate rehabilitation of their peoples.
I wish to assure you, sir, and through you the British Prime Minister and the British people, of our gratitude for what they did for

Questions
us durihg the dark days of the battle of Britain. I ask that the right hon. gentleman be assured also of the understanding and1 sympathy of at least that portion of the Canadian people represented by this group, in the great responsibilities developing upon him and upon his colleagues at this time.
I trust that, in complete and unselfish support, Canada will stand with Britain in the years to come in the attempt to find solutions for the wide problems that now confront us. I trust that the Prime Minister and his colleagues will enjoy continued health and vigour, so that they may successfully meet the challenge to their powers. May I also express the hope that through divine guidance they may enter upon the secure road to enduring peace. Finally, let me express, on behalf of my group, the sincere hope that their journey homeward may be pleasing, and that it may not be long before we again welcome them to Canada.
Hon. LOUIS S. ST. LAURENT (Minister of Justice): Mr. Speaker, I wish to say a few words in French to endorse the remarks of the hon. members who have spoken before me, in order to tender our thanks to the Right Honourable Mr. Attlee. I especially desire to say how grateful we are that he should have emphasized the bilingual character of this house by using the language of our forefathers for a part of his speech.


Mr. THOMAS REID (New Westminster):: The motion just made in the name of the Prime Minister is that the speech delivered by the Prime Minister of Great Britain, Mr. Attlee, be included in the House of Commons Debates. I trust that this includes the speech made by our own Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) and the speeches delivered by the Speakers of the two houses.


Mr. MACKENZIE:: I believe that has been the custom on previous occasions, Mr. Speaker, but perhaps, by gracious consent of the house, you might direct that the speech of introduction delivered by the Prime Minister of Canada and the speeches delivered by the Speakers of the Senate and of the House of Commons be included.


John Bracken: The suggestion made by the hon. member for New Westminster meets with our entire approval.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
(For text of address oj Prime Minister Attlee, with speeches of welcome and thanks, see page 2275).


[Stage Direction]
Mr. MATTHEW MacLEAN (Cape Breton North-Victoria) moved that the first report of the standing committee on standing orders, presented on November 16, be concurred in.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
(Question® answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)
H.	M.C.S. "CORNWALLIS"-STORES ASSISTANTS
["1.\tThe manuscript of the report of auditor general of Canada was forwarded to the king's printer on September 15, 1945.\n2.\tThe report of the auditor general is bound in the same volume as the public accounts of Canada but this report does not give details of the expenditures of the various government departments. This information will be found in part II of the public accounts.\nThe manuscript of the public accounts was sent to the king's printer on various dates, as fallows:-\nIntroduction-November 3.\nPart I-From September 10 to October 10.\nPart II-from July 3 to October 9.\nPart III-July 31.\nIt is not possible to prepare the manuscript for the introduction to the public accounts (report of the deputy minister of finance) until certain information contained in parts I and II is available in galley form."]
Mr. McLURE:: I.	How many stores assistants are at H.M.C.S. Cornicallis naval station, Deep Brook, Nova Scotia?
2.	How many stores assistants from the Cornwallis have been granted discharges or releases since the cessation of hostilities?
3.	Are stores assistants being refused releases? If so, on what grounds?
4.	How many R.C.N. trainees are being given field and small arms training theTe at the present time?



Mr. BENTLEY:: 1.	Has the air training school at Swift Current. Saskatchewan, been declared surplus by the Department of National Defence for Air?
2.	Has any application for the purchase of the site, buildings, equipment and/or other materials of the Swift Current air training school been received by the government or by War Assets Corporation?


Mr. ABBOTT:: 1.	Two portions only of this property have been declared surplus as follows:
(a) The aerodrome and two buildings (watch office, No. 32 and W.T. station, No. 44) as of 17th May, 1945. This portion was subsequently transferred to the Department of Transport.

Questions

(b) Two buildings (both O.R. quarters, Nos. 35 and 45), as of 1st October, 1945. These were subsequently turned over to the province of Saskatchewan to meet em. ergency shelter requirements of the city of Swift Current.
2.	Yes. Inquiries regarding the possible sale of the site, buildings and/or equipment were received from the following:
Town of Herbert, Sask.
Department of Agriculture (Central Experimental Farm), Ottawa, Ontario.
Walter Smith. Box 551, Swift Current, Sask.
R. T. Graham, Swift Current, Sask.
Note: The Department of National Defence (army) have expressed a definite interest in this property for ordnance services.


FEDERAL ASSISTANCE TO CONSTRUCTION OF MINING ROADS
Mr. BENIDICKSON:: What was tlie total amount of moneys contributed by the dominion government towards construction costs of provincial projects for construction of mining roads for each of the four fiscal years, 1936-37 to 1939-40?


Mr. GLEN:: The total amount of moneys contributed by the dominion government towards construction costs of provincial projects for construction of mining transportation facilities (mainly roads)* in each of the four fiscal years 1936-37 to 193940 was as follows:
1936-	37	
SI,162,476	631937-	38	
1,231,554	831938-	39	
1,093,910	621939-	40	
1,038,231	29
* The expenditures were almost entirely made on road construction. The figures include a few other aids to transportation into ' mining areas such as dams and wharfs.


PRAIRIE FARM ASSISTANCE-MANITOBA
Mr. ZAPLITNY:: 1.	What rural municipalities in Manitoba have applied for assistance this year under the Prairie Farm Assistance Act?
2.	Wliat other applications have been received from Manitoba?
3.	Has any money been paid out, to date, in connection with these applications? If so, how much?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	Dauphin, Ethelbert, Grey, La Broquerie. Mossey River, Morris, MacDonald, Shell River, Ste Anne, Wallace, Turtle Mountain, Rossburn.
2.	None.
3.	No. The initial payments will be made in December in accordance with the terms of the Prairie Farm Assistance Act.


VOCATIONAL SCHOOLS
Mr. CASTLEDEN:: 1.	At what points are Canadian vocational schools now in operation in Canada?
2.	What is the enrolment in each of these schools?
3.	Which of these schools are vocational and which are prematriculation?
4.	What salaries are being paid to instructors at each of these schools?


Mr. MITCHELL:: 1, 2 and 3. See statement below.
4.	The salaries of instructors are determined and paid by each province in accordance with rates prevailing in the area.
Enrolment of Veterans in Canadian Vocational Training Schools on October 31, 1945 (Sept. 30 for Ontario Centres)
Prince Edward Island	Enrolment
Charlottetown (V)	 7
(P)	 4
Nova Scotia
Halifax Technical College	(V)....	71
(P)....	43
Halifax H.M.C.S. Stadacona (V)
Halifax Army Huts (V)	 Open	in
December
North Sydney	 Open	in
November
Windsor	 Open	in
November
New Brunswick
Edmundston (V)	 24
Campbellton (V)	 1
Millidgeville (V)	 80
(P)	 67
West Saint John (V)	  21
Saint John (V)	 3
Saipt John Vocational School (Y)	20
Moncton (V)	 Open	in
November
Quebec
Laval University (P)	 15
Montreal University	(P)	 74
Loyola College (P)	  105
Sir George Williams College (P).	234
Cabano (V)	 1

Questions
Enrolment
Lauzon "(V)	 23
Granby (V)	 1
Maisonneuve (V)	 10
Rimouski (V)	 26
St. Gabriel (V)	 1
St. Jerome (V)	 3
Verdun- (V)	  2
Duchesnay (V)	 6
St. Anne de Bellevue (V)	 5
Quebec Technical (V)	 48
Fine Arts Quebec (V)	 1
Three Rivers (V)	 79
Shawinigan Falls (V)	 4
Sherbrooke (V)	 3
Ste. Hyacinthe (V)	 1
Hull (V)	 17
Montreal Technical (V)	 18
Montreal Wm. Lunn (V)	 64
Montreal Octave Cassegrain (V).	152
Montreal Graphic Arts (V)	 43
Montreal Furniture School (V)..	41
Montreal Higher Commercial
Studies (V)	 4
Montreal Veterans Commercial (V)	 306
Ontario
Toronto Institute (V)	 750
(P)	 856
Toronto Central Tech. (V)	 7
Haileybury (V)..'	 22
Kirkland Lake (V)	 2
Fort William (P)	 31
(V)	 Open	in
November
North Bay (P)	  26
Ottawa Technical (V)	-	18
Ottawa School of Commerce (V).	28
Brockville (V)	 Open	in
December
Proscott (V)	   Open	in
December
Kingston (P)	
London Beal Tech. (V)	 10
London C.N.R. Bldg. (P)	 55
London Business Institute (V)...	54
Windsor (P)	 28
Windsor (V)	 Open	in
November
Kitchener Business Institute (V).	13
Kitchener Vocational School (P).	2
Galt Collegiate (V)	 1
Hamilton Central Collegiate (P).	82
Hamilton Technical Teacher's College (V)	 14
Hamilton Army Trade School (V)	92
47696 -1414
Manitoba	Enrolment
Winnipeg Manitoba Tech. (P)...	245
(V)...	406
Winnipeg Mall Centre (V)	 130
Winnipeg Midwest Aircraft	 Open in
November
St. Boniface (V)	 27
Brandon (V)	 2
Saskatchewan
Various High Schools (P)	 13
Regina Wascana (P)	 148
Regina R.C.A.F. Huts (V)	 114
Moose Jaw (P)	 22
(V)	 48
Prince Albert (V)	 12
Saskatoon Tech. (V)	 2
Saskatoon R.C.A.F. (P)	 169
(V)	 43
Alberta
Medicine Hat (V)	 1
Calgary Institute of Tech. (V)...	123
Calgary Airport (V)	 100
Calgary R.C.A.F. Wireless (P)...	218
Edmonton University of Alberta
(V-)	   5
Edmonton Tech. (P)	 171
(V)	 136
Edmonton Drill Hall (V)	 Open	in
November
Grande Prairie (V)	 Open	in
November
Red Deer (V)	  Open	in
November
British Columbia
Nanaimo (V)	 19
Victoria (V)	 16
IJejjr Westminster (V)	 1
Vancouver Seaview (P)	 307
Vancouver Tech. (V)	 121
Vancouver Pacific Ave. (V)	 72
Vancouver Barbering (V)	 7
Vancouver Watchmaking (V)_________ 11
Vancouver McDonald Annex (V).	15
Vancouver Inverness St. (V)	 123
Vancouver Tech. Army Camp (V)	Open in
December
Victoria Tyee Road (V)	 Open	in
December
Note:	(V) denotes vocational training;
(P) denotes pre-matriculation training. With the exception of a few civilian apprentices in designated trades, the students are veterans.
Questions


ROYAL CANADIAN MINT-COTRELLE
Mr. ADAMSON:: 1.	What year was the cotrelle installed in the Royal Canadian Mint?
2.	What was the recovery obtained from same in each, year of operation?


Mr. MAYHEW:: 


L 1936. 2.
[Stage Direction]
Date	Material Fine	FineFiscal year	Recovered Gold	Silverended	Lbs.	Ounces	Ounces*Mar. 31, 1937	5,572	1,531.743	6,749.69Mar. 31, 1938	9,505	2,719.380	11,700.65Mar. 31, 1939	11,873	3,573.775	14,507.62Mar. 31 1940	14,413	4,107.705	18,566.83Mar. 31, 1941	IS,597.	5,709.279	23,776.26Mar. 31, 1942	24,356	6,822.116	26,772.12Mar. 31, 1943	24,211	6,665.288	26,634.52Mar. 31, 1944	16,141	3,410.409	12,373.32Mar. 31. 1945	11,619	3,195.856	14,843.67August, 1936 to March	31, 1937.

Mr. ADAMSON:: 1.	What was the value of overages at the Royal Canadian Mint for the fiscal years, 1932 to 1941 inclusive, for gold and silver?
2.	What disposition was made of the funds resulting therefrom?


Robert Wellington Mayhew: 


AUDITOR GENERAL'S REPORT
Mr. FRASER:: 1.	When was the 1945 auditor general's report given to the King's Printer ?
2.	Was this given complete to the King's Printer? If not, on what dates wrere details of the different governmental departments given to the King's Printer?


Mr. MAYHEW:: 1.	The manuscript of the report of auditor general of Canada was forwarded to the king's printer on September 15, 1945.
2.	The report of the auditor general is bound in the same volume as the public accounts of Canada but this report does not give details of the expenditures of the various government departments. This information will be found in part II of the public accounts.
The manuscript of the public accounts was sent to the king's printer on various dates, as fallows:-
Introduction-November 3.
Part I-From September 10 to October 10.
Part II-from July 3 to October 9.
Part III-July 31.
It is not possible to prepare the manuscript for the introduction to the public accounts (report of the deputy minister of finance) until certain information contained in parts I and II is available in galley form.



FAMILY ALLOWANCES ACT

Mr. McMASTER:: 
Mr. CLAXTON:: The way in which the statistics regarding family allowances are kept does not permit of a break-down being given for the months of August and September as
1	child ..
2	children
3	children
4	children
5	children
6	children
7	children
8	children
9	children
10	children
11	children
12	children
13	children
14	children
15	or more
requested in the question. Subject to this, the
question is answered.
1. July, 1945	 1,238,461
August, 1945	 1,294,556
September, 1945	 1,345,350
October, 1945	 1,334,575
The following is a break-down of the above by families, showing the number of children in each family:
July	August	. September	October1945	1945	1945 .	1945463,582	512,659343.542	368,932193.392	199,453101.977	110,83259,355	62,51733,337	36,57421,719	21,23311,861	12.0426.052	6,1512.631	2,808811	1,023150	28844	516	102	21,238,461	1,294,556	1,345,350	1,334,575
Note.-As a break-down has heretofore been made only once every fourth month it is regretted that an analysis for August and September is not available.
2. July	 $17,560,934.00
August	 18,298,948.00
September	 19,307,513.00
October	 19,050,972.50



CERIUM OXIDE

Mr. McCULLOUGH (Assiniboia):: 1.	Has the production of cerium oxide been discontinued in Canada?
2.	If so, for what reason?


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	Cerium oxide has not been produced in commercial quantities in Canada but has been imported.
2.	Answered bv No. 1.



INCOME TAX-FARMERS

Mr. LACOMBE:: 1.	Has the government recently sent income tax forms to farmers?
2.	Have accountants or other qualified persons been appointed to help farmers fill in such forms?


Mr. McCANN:: 1. Income, tax forms are sent from time to time to farmers and others who are found to be delinquent in the filing of returns.
2. No, but such h^lp is given either at the office of the local inspector or by the itinerant auditor as he visits the particular area.



UNITED NATIONS EDUCATIONAL AND CULTURAL CONFERENCE-CANADIAN DELEGATES

Mr. PROBE:: 1.	By whom were Canadian delegates to the United Nations Educational and cultural meetings in London selected?
2.	Were Canadian representatives at the conference authorized to speak on behalf of Canadian education or for the Department of External Affairs?
3.	Will the Canadian government or. Canadian education, be bound by the decisions of the conference in London?
4.	What members of the Canadian delegation are professional educationalists?
5.	Were Canadian educationalists at present on the staff of Khaki University in England invited to act as delegates?
6.	Have the organized teachers of Canada been consulted with respect to the personnel of the present delegation or will they be consulted for any permanent appointments to the international organization when set up?
Mr. ST. LAURENT:
1.	By the Canadian government, P.C. 6634 of October 23.
2.	Answered by 1.
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3.	As stated in the House of Commons on
October 25, the conference was called primr-arily to consider the draft constitution for the proposed organization:	this constitution
does not contemplate that the organization, whose field will cover not only education but also cultural and scientific activities, will be taking decisions which call for automatic implementation in the member countries, but rather will have the function to recommend and make suggestions for application, if need be, always subject to the constitutional and other limitations which: apply in each member country. If the conference succeeds in its object and a new international agency is set up, I have no doubt, that consideration will be given by 'the government to the development of means for ensuring that the 'Canadian share in the activities of the organization is carried out tin close consultation with the provincial departments of education and with the associations and institutions in Canada that are concerned1 with educational, cultural and scientific activities.
4.	The purposes of the conference, as set out under 3, were 'borne in mind in determining the composition of the Canadian delegation. All its members have been closely concerned in educational questions. Mr. Massey, as high commissioner, is the principal Canadian representative in the United Kingdom: and1 has been the chairman of the committee on education overseas; Dr. R. C. Wallace is the Principal of Queen's University; Mr. E. Turcottfc has written numerous articles and books on educational matters; Mr. T. W. L. MacDermot has a long experience in university and college education; Dr. J. E. Robbins, of the educational statistics branch of the dominion bureau of statistics, is the Secretary of the Canadian council on education and citizenship, the social sciences research council, the Canadian committee on intellectual cooperation and the Canada-New-foundlland educational association; Dr. J. C. Malloch is the senior liaison officer of the national research council of Canada in the United Kingdom.
5.	No.
6.	Answer to the first part:	No.
Answer to the second part:	It is expected
that the international organization, when, set up, will, like other international organizations, recruit its own personnel; it is likely that, if a Canadian appointment were contemplated, it would consult with the Canadian organization or organizations in the field covered by it.

S. It. MCLAREN


Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	Is Mr. S. H. McLaren employed by the government or any department or branch thereof? If so, in what capacity?
2.	What are his duties and responsibilities and what is his salary?


Mr. MITCHELL:: 1.	Yes. Assistant director, employment service and unemployment insurance, and acting chief executive officer, unemployment insurance commission, on loan from the position of chief treasury officer, unemployment insurance division of the office of the comptroller of the treasury.
2.	Chief administrative officer of the unemployment- insurance commission; vicechairman, N.S.S. advisory board, Department of Labour; vice-chairman, adminstration board, Department of Labour.
Salary	 $4,620
War duties supplement ______ 1,380



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. BLACK (Yukon):: 1.	Whose responsibility is it to keep airplane landing fields in Yukon at Whitehorse. Dawson, Mayo, Selkirk, Carcross, Carmacks, McQuestiqn, in a proper state and condition for use in the operation of airplanes landing on and taking off therefrom?
2.	At whose expense is such service to said airplane landings performed?
3.	To what department of government are estimates of required expenditures for such services made?
4.	To what department of government is an accounting made for such expenditures?


MAGNESIUM
Mr. STEWART (Winnipeg North):: 
Mr. FRASER:: 1.	How many employees employed under the King's Printer have been superannuated since January 1, 1939?
2.	How many of these positions have been filled permanently?
3.	How many temporarily?
4.	Have these positions been advertised by the civil service commission?
5.	How many employees employed under the King's Printer have reached the age of superannuation ?
6.	Whait steps are being taken to replace such employees with ex-servicemen?


VETERANS LAND ACT-POINTS IN ONTARIO
Mr. FLEMING:: 1.	What lands have been purchased for the construction of houses for veterans under the Veterans' Land Act in the vicinity of, (a) Ottawa; (b) Toronto; (c) Hamilton; (d) London; (e) Windsor; (f) St. Catharines; (g) Cornwall; (h) Kingston?
2.	As to each parcel, what is the, (a) short description; (b) nearest town; (c) acreage; (d) distance to schools; (e) number of lots into which the parcel is being divided; (f) number of houses under actual construction; (g) type of contract entered into with the builder; (h) name of the contractor; (i) planned water supply; (j) planned sewage disposal; (k) date when the construction of houses actually commenced; (1) estimated completion date of construction; (m) total of progress payments made to the contractor to date; (n) purchase price paid; (o) assessed value price to purchase?


PRODUCTION OF CONSTRUCTION LUMBER
Mr. CASTLEDEN:: 1.	What is the quantity of construction lumber produced in Canada for each year from 1939 to 1944 and in 1945?
2.	What quantity of such lumber was exported in each year?
3.	What has been the increase in the retail price of lumber for house construction permitted by the lumber controller since the operation of price control?
4.	What steps have been taken to maintain-the standards of No. 1 lumber in the retail yards ?


DIESEL ENGINES
Mr. WINKLER:: 1. By years, since 1930, how many diesel engines have been imported into Canada?
2. By years, since 1930. how many diesel engines were manufactured in Canada?
3.	At which year did the diesel engine manufacturers approximately fulfil the requirements of the io per cent clause of P.C. 1618?	-
4.	What is the tariff rate on diesel engines allowed by P.C. 1618, tariff item 440G?



FAILURE OF APPLE CROP-SUBSIDIES

Mr. CASSELMAN:: * 1. What applications, if any have been made to the government seeking subsidies by way of compensation for the failure of the apple crop?
2.	What action has been taken by the government with respect to said applications?
3.	If a subsidy is granted, will it be of general application throughout Canada?



PUBLIC RELATIONS, PUBLICITY AND INFORMATION EXPENDITURES

Mr. FLEMING:: 1.	What expenditures have been made by the various departments of government and associated boards and corporations from April 1 to November 1, 1945, on public relations, publicity and information?
2.	(a) To what persons outside the government service were such payments made; (b) how much did each receive and for what services?
3.	How many persons are employed by the various departments of government and associated boards and corporations in public relations, publicity and information?



POST OFFICE-WINNIPEG STRIKE OF 1919

Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	How many employees of the Post Office Department in the Winnipeg postal district were granted the status of "on leave without pay" in connection with their absence from work during the time of the general strike in Winnipeg in 1919?
2.	How many of these employees were granted restoration of the salary rates they had previous to the absence noted above? How many were granted their normal annual salary increases?
3.	Were these employees permitted to make contributions for superannuation purposes covering the time they had served previous to said absence? If so, how many of these employees have done so?
4.	Has consideration been given to permitting these employees to make contributions for superannuation purposes covering the period in 1919 when they were "on leave of absence without pay"? If so, what was the result of such consideration? If not, will such consideration be given?
5.	Has consideration been given to permitting returned soldiers of World War I who became employees of the Post Office Department after the last war to make contributions for superannuation purposes covering the period of time they spent overseas with the Canadian forces during World War I? If so. what was the result of such consideration? If not, will such consideration be given?
Canadian Flag



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


[Stage Direction]
Mr. GILLIS moved-:
For a copy of all correspondence and memoranda passing between the Department of Labour, unemployment insurance branch, Ottawa, -and the unemployment insurance office in Sydney, Nova Scotia and Moncton, New Brunswick, on the claim for unemployment insurance of Mrs. Lillian Bateman, of Sydney, Nova Scotia.
He saidi: I have the information I desire, and I therefore ask that the motion be dropped.
Motion dropped.

Mr. ISNOR:: For a copy of all correspondence passed between the mayor or clerk of the city of Halifax and the minister or any official of the Department of National Defence, or any other department, concerning tile return- of the Halifax forum or the whole, or any portion, of the exhibition grounds, during the years 1944 and 1945.



CANADIAN FLAG


[Stage Direction]
Hon. IAN A. MACKENZIE (for the Prime Minister) moved:
That Messrs. Beaudoin, Blanchette, Castle-den, Emmerson, Gingues, Gladstone, Haekett, Hansell, Harris (Grey-Bruce), Herridge, LaCroix, Lafontaine, Macdonnell (Muskoka-On-tario), Melvor, Reid, Smith JCalgary West), Stanfield, Stirling, Thatcher, Warren, Zaplitny, be appointed to act as members of the Joint Committee of both Houses to consider and report upon a suitable design for a distinctive national flag.
That a message be sent to the Senate to inform Their Honours that the House of Commons has appointed this committee and to request Their Honours to appoint members of the Senate to act thereon with the members of the House of Commons as a joint committee of both Houses.
He said: Before the motion is passed may I say that there is an error in the printing. On November 16 the list of members to comprise the subcommittee to be set up to consider and report upon a suitable design for a distinctive national flag contained these names: MacNicol, Martin, Matthews and McCulloch. These names do not appear under government motions in the routine proceedings of Novem-

ber 19. I want to be sure that these names are included is* the motion as passed by this house.
Mr. T. L. CHURCH (Broadview):: I should like to ask the mover of this resolution the meaning of the words "appointed to act". The committee is appointed to act. It consists of members of both houses and they are to report upon a suitable design for a distinctive national flag. I understood the minister, when introducing this motion for the Prime Minister, to say in a speech the other day when he made this reference to a committee that the principle' of a new Canadian flag had been adopted. Is that right? If this motion is passed, all that the committee will have to do, as I understand it, is to pick a flag out of fifty or sixty designs or crazy quilts, as many of them are. I want to find out the powers of the committee. What are the powers of the House of Commons when the report is presented? I might say to the master of ceremonies, the learned member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Mackenzie), that I do not agree with him. Sometimes I do; a great many times I do not. Will the House of Commons have power, as they have under our rules and citations, to revise what the committee does, and decide on retaining the present flag, or another flag, or the flag that is flying to-day on the building? I noticed three distinct flags flying on the various buildings on parliament hill to-day. One the red ensign over the tower, one a union jack by Sir John A. Macdonald's monument, and the other at the other front end of this building.
The minister distinctly said in his speech the other day that when this committee is appointed it will have no power to decide whether we should retain the present flag or the flag that is now flying on the peace tower, the flag with the union jack in one top corner, the size of a postage stamp-that is all it is. Those who haul down the union jack will have to answer for it. I should like to find out the powers of the committee under this reference. When the committee meets, the chairman must first of all read the text of the reference. Under the rule by which a committee of parliament is appointed it must stick to the terms of the resolution. It must stay in the pond; it cannot wander out into the lake.
I can tell the house that the majority of the people of Ontario will not put up with this sort of thing. This debate is going to be carried on in the Ontario legislature, and the battle fought all over the province. You will have a union jack election; do not worry about that.

Dominion Elections
So far as this motion goes I am absolutely opposed to the appointment of the committee.
I stand against it; I appeal to my colleagues of the Toronto district to record a vote on this motion to appoint a committee.
I consider this is a matter for the provinces entirely; it is a matter of "property and civil rights", which come within the legislative authority of the province. This is a matter of property and civil rights in the provinces, because definite promises were given to the maritime provinces, Ontario and Quebec, when they entered confederatic n on a definite charter and understanding. The flag was the union jack, and we have no power to change it.
There is a large representation in this chamber from Ontario. In fact, one newspaper has said that the party to which I belong has become an Ontario party. I do not admit that, because in my view we are and always have been a national party. But under this resolution there, should be power to make investigations and hear deputations. It would seem that this committee can do nothing but pick a design from among fifty or sixty designs for a new Canadian flag. In doing that, it is to represent the House of Commons. But, according to what the minister has said, the house having decided on the principle of a national flag, we can do nothing further when that report comes back but decide on the new design solely.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Mr. Speaker, may I point out to the hon. member who has just spoken that this resolution does not introduce any new element. Some days ago the house decided as to the principle of the resolution, and his own party-very wisely, I think- with the exception of the hon. member for Broadview (Mr. Church), voted for it. This resolution simply nominates the personnel who are to serve jointly upon the committee with members from the other house. However, the powers given the committee were stated definitely in the earlier resolution. The committee will consider the design for a flag and will then report back to the house. Then the house may either accept or reject the report of that committee, or adopt whatever course it may consider fit ard proper.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Is it the pleasure of the
house to adopt the motion.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.


Thomas Langton Church: On division.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr.  M. J. COLD WELL@Rosetown-Biggar: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Secretary of State (Mr. Martin)? Has any report been received by the chief electoral officer regarding alleged irregularities in the federal constituency of Melville last June? If so, will the minister table a copy of the report.


Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture):: Mr. Speaker, in the absence
of the Secretary of State I understand and as the member concerned, I wish to state that the report following an investigation held respecting a certain poll in the constituency of Melville was received by the chief electoral officer this morning. I learned just before coming to the house that the report has been received and is thirty some odd pages in length, and that it will have to be copied before it will be possible to lay a copy of it on the table.


Mr. HOMUTH:: Are you still a member?


James Garfield Gardiner: I am still a member, yes.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: And he will be a
member, too.


James Garfield Gardiner: I do not think the
purpose of the investigation would be properly served unless this were made public; and of course the proper way to make it public is to place a copy on the table of the house.



CANADIAN ARMY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. C. GREEN (Vancouver South):: I should like to ask a question of the Minister of National Defence. Press reports indicate that there has been some change in the demobilization programme by which men eligible for discharge may remain in the. service for an extended period, pending their finding suitable employment. Will the minister give the house a statement respecting this change?


Hon. DOUGLAS ABBOTT (Minister of National Defencq):: I am obliged to my hon. friend for asking the question, because the press reports to which he has referred would appear to have given rise to some misunderstanding. There has been no change in the

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Demobilization-Munitions and Supply
basic policy of demobilization, which is that men who have a point score, who are eligible for discharge, and for whom there is no longer any military necessity, are discharged. However, that policy has never been applied harshly. In a case where a man has indicated he would like to stay in the service for a short time, provided that suitable and essential employment can be found for him, he has been kept in, and someone who perhaps is in a slightly lower priority position is discharged in his place.
As my hon. friend knows, the machinery for discharge, if I may so describe it, is now operating pretty well at capacity, to the extent of about 40,000 a month, and we will continue it.
So far as possible, the policy to which I have" referred, of allowing a man who wishes to stay in for a couple of weeks or a month, to stay, will be followed. However, I think I can point out that considerations of that kind have never entered into a large number of cases, and it would be impossible to have it so.


Howard Charles Green: Is there a limit to the length of time a man may stay in the- forces?


Douglas Charles Abbott: No, no formal time has been fixed. The commanding officers are given discretion, and if a man can be usefully smployed he may be left for the time being, provided that he wishes to stay. But that is only in a limited number of cases.



POSTAL SERVICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. STANLEY KNOWLES (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Postmaster General (Mr. Bertrand), notice of which I gave him earlier to-day. I have just received a communication from him asking if I would postpone the question until to-morrow. However, as one of those who will not be able to be here to-morrow, since we shall be out over the Atlantic-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


Mr. ROSS (Souris):: We will make progress, then.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Although I did not ask for that applause, I am grateful for it. At any rate I shall ask my question, and perhaps in my absence the Postmaster General will answer it to-morrow. The question is based upon a letter, a copy of which I sent the minister, which has been sent out to a number of letter carriers in Winnipeg advising them that in a few days they may expect separation notices.
In view of the statement the minister made on September 18, that consideration would be given to restoring two mail deliveries a day to urban areas, when the returning men came back, and in view of the figures in sessional paper 184, which show a shortage of letter carriers, would he reconsider the matter with a view to cancelling the separation notices to which I have referred?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.



WAR AND DEMOBILIZATION PROVISION FOR APPROPRIATION OF $1,365,000,000 FOR WAR PURPOSES. DEMOBILIZATION, PROMOTION OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY, ETC.

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Friday, November 16, consideration in committee of a resolution to grant to His Majesty certain sums of money for the carrying out of measures deemed necessary or advisable in consequence of the war-Mr. Ilsley-Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair.

['Mr. Attlee, honourable members of the Senate and1 of the House of Commons; It is indeed a great honour and privilege to e-xtend on behalf of the House of Commons to the Right Honourable Mr. Attlee our most sincere thanks for\'having accepted the invitation to address the Parliament of Canada, and for speaking in such generous terms of our country and its people.\nI w\'ould not dare, as it would- be superfluous, to utter any remarks in reply to the views which have been expressed to this parliament by the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom; moreover, if this were a regular sitting of the house, I should not have the right to do so, since our standing order No. 10 says: "Mr. Speaker shall not take part in any debate before the house."\nMay I be permitted, however, to say to the Right Honourable Prime Minister that it will be indeed- a great pleasure for the Speaker, when an hon. member of the house moves, during our regular sitting, that the address of the Right Honourable Clement R. Attlee, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, delivered: before the members of the Senate and of the House of Commons in the chamber of the House of Commons, on Monday, November 19, 1945, be- included in the House of Commons Debates and form part of the permanent records of this parliament. I must assure you, sir, that the hon. member\nNOVEMBER 19, i945\nThe Prime Minister\nwho will move this motion will not be called to order by the Speaker; and after the motion will have been put, I shall indeed be very happy, acting as the voice of the House of Commons, to say, without hesitation; Carried. (Translation):\nMr. Attlee, while very heavy responsibilities and duties are devolved on the Speaker of the House of Commons, he also enjoys privileges that are most delightful, as is the case this afternoon, I am pleased indeed to avail myself of this opportunity to offer you in my mother tongue the heartiest welcome on behalf of the French-Canadian group and to thank you most sincerely for having accepted, on the invitation of the Prime Minister, to address a joint sitting of the two houses of the Canadian parliament.\nI wish to assure you that my French-Canadian fellow-citizens are glad of your visit, for they have not forgotten the heroic stand of your country in the war that has just ended and they are grateful to Great Britain and her people who have to a great extent been reponsible for the united nations\' victory. They also recall the outstanding part you have played in those difficult years, alongside the former prime minister of Great Britain, Right Honourable Winston Churchill, in the administration of your country.\nLet me add that if we in Canada have always put our confidence in the courage and valour of the British people in the darkest days, we look no less confidently to your great country for the maintenance of the unity7 and the cooperation among united nations which have brought victory to us, and which will ensure us for the future a lasting peace wherein we may find the guarantee of a better world.\nThe proceedings were concluded by the singing of God Save the King.\nTuesday, November 20, 1045.']
Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Munitions and Supply):: Mr. Chairman, it has been the practice in other years to submit the estimates of the Department of Munitions and Supply under eight items. For the convenience of the committee, I will again present the estimates of the department under a similar break-down showing estimated expenditures from April 1, 1945 to August 31, ,1945, estimated expenditures for the year 1945-46, actual expenditures from April 1, 1945 to August 31, 1945, and estimated expenditures from September 1, 1945 to March 31, 1946, the balance of the fiscal year.
The break-down of the estimates is now being distributed to hon. members, and perhaps it will not be necessary for me to read it if I can obtain unanimous consent to have it placed on Hansard. The table follows:
'Mr. Abbott.]

Demobilization-Munitions and Supply
DEPARTMENT OF MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY Estimated Expenditures 1945-1946
Expansion of industry	Estimated Apr. 1 to Aug. 31/45	Estimated for year 1945-46	Actual Apr. 1 to Aug. 31/45	Estimated Sept. 1 to Mar. 31/46Additions and extensions to plants 	$12,500,000	$ 15,000,000	$ 2,340,413	$ 12,659,587Cargo vessels operated by Park Steamship Co. Ltd...	12,500,000	27,000,000	23,380,058	3,619,942Housing development 	4,500,000	30.000,000	868,590	29,131,410Miscellaneous property acquired 	2,000,000	3,000,000	147,636	2,852,364Production subsidies and other miscellaneous war expenses 	12,500.000	25,000,000	14,795,558	10,204,44244,000,000	100.000,000	41,532,255	58,467,745Termination of contracts 	175,000,000	4,546,625	170,453,37544,000,000	275,000,000	46,078,880	228,921,120Departmental administration ..	4,500,000	7,000,000	3,187,059	3,812,94148,500,000	282,000,000	49,265,939	232,734,061Loans to commodity companies Recoveries in excess of advances Revolving funds for working capital Recoveries in excess of advances	+ 5,000,000 f 150,000,000	+ 3,538,368 + 125,388,331	+ 1,461,632 + 24,611,669
It will be noted that there is an additional item in this year's estimates, item No. 6, termination of contracts. This is ,not a new expenditure, since the funds appropriated under this item are offset by an equivalent reduction in the estimates of requisitioning agencies, namely, army, navy, air force and mutual aid, which would, under earlier practice, be charged with cost of cancellation of contracts placed in implementing the requisitions of each of those departments. A separate appropriation for termination of contracts has the effect of cutting red tape, and thus speeding up the work of contract settlement.
A comparison of estimated and actual expenditures for the period from April 1, 1945 to August 31, 1945, will show that the expenditures of the department are slightly above the estimate which I presented to the house on April 10 last. This increase is the result of expenditures arising from the cancellation of contracts for which no estimate was made. It will be noted that the estimated expenditures for the period from September 1, 1945 to March 31, 1946, amount to $232,273,061. It may be asked why an expenditure of this order is required now that hostilities have ceased. The answer is that the work of the department in terminating contracts.and in liquidating Canada's munitions programme involves a scale of activity for the balance of this fiscal year comparable with that of the war years. I 47696-142J
will give the house a brief description of each of the items contained in the break-down that has been distributed to hon. members.
Item No. 1 provides for an expenditure of $12,659,587 for additions and extensions to plant. Of this amount, the major part will be required for the completion of the Chalk River atomic energy project. The balance of the expenditure will be used to meet unpaid balances of commitments which were made prior to September 1.
Item No. 2-Cargo vessels operated by Park Steamship company. The amount required under this item will be used in payment for three 8,500-ton diesel driven cargo vessels on order at Park Steamship Company Limited which had not been delivered as of September 1.
Item No. 3-Housing development. The committee will recall that Wartime Housing Limited was established to provide emergency housing for munitions workers. Recent housing surveys concerned with the housing requirements of veterans, indicate that the most pressing need is for a low-rent house. Despite the large private housing programme now under way in Canada, there has been little disposition on the part of private builders to enter the low-rent field. In order that our returning servicemen may be able to find accommodation at low rentals, it was decided last July that a programme of low-rent hous-
2242	COMMONS
Demobilization-Munitions and Supply
ing should be undertaken, as a means of holding the situation until private enterprise can take over the low-rental field. The cooperation of the municipal authority has been sought in each case, and it is the responsibility of that authority to select the lots for the houses. I should say that a request from the municipality must be received before Wartime Housing will take action. There have been built, or are building, some seven thousand houses for veterans in the following cities: Vancouver, Victoria, Kamloops, Kelowna, Penticton, Edmonton, Calgary, Lethbridge, Regina, Moose Jaw, Saskatoon, Prince Albert, Winnipeg, St. Boniface, St. James, Transcona, Brantford, Cornwall, Fort William, Hamilton, London, Oshawa, Ottawa, Owen Sound, Peterborough, Port Arthur, Sarnia, Sault Ste. Marie, Toronto, Windsor, Hull, Quebec, Montreal, Saint John and Halifax. The amount asked for in this item will be required to meet the cost of this housing programme.
Item No. 4-Miscellaneous property. The department throughout the war years has had to acquire physical properties of various kinds. Of the amount asked for in this item $1,750,000 is earmarked for four Lancaster transport planes now building for use in the Canadian government transatlantic air service operated by Trans-Canada Air Lines.
Item No. 5-Production subsidies and other miscellaneous war expenses. This amount is our estimate of requirements for subsidies to be paid by the emergency coal production boat'd and outstanding payments on other production subsidies, for which commitment was made prior to September 1.
Item No. 6-Termination of contracts. During the war years, the payment of costs incidental to the cancellation of contracts was the responsibility of the requisitioning agency. In anticipation of the heavy volume of such claims which would occur with the end of hostilities, and in order to expedite settlement of these claims, it was decided to establish a special board under the Department of Munitions and Supply, to be known as the contract settlement board. 'This board has full res-ponsibilty for dealing with claims arising out of the termination of contracts. The contract settlement board will also deal with claims arising out of cancellation of contracts placed on behalf of the mutual aid board. Our best estimate of the amount required ter settle cancellation costs on contracts placed by the Department of Munitions and: Supply and the mutual aid board for the fiscal year is $175,000,000. Of this amount, $4,546,625 was spent prior to September 1. However, I

must remind the committee that no accurate estimate of these costs can be made until all claims have been considered and settled by the contract settlement board.
Item No. 7-Departmental administration. The cost of departmental administration for the period from April 1 to September 1 was $3,187,069. The estimate of the cost for the balance of the fiscal year is $3,812,941. However, with the decline in staff requirements of the Department of Munitions and Supply, and the impending amalgamation of the department with the Department of Reconstruction, the probability is that this full amount will not be required.
Item No. 8-Loans to commodity companies. This item shows recoveries of advances to certain crown companies of the department for wmrking capital purposes.
Item No. 9-Revolving funds for working capital. I have had occasion to point out in previous years that the amount of the estimate for the Department of Munitions and Supply has no relation to the total sum of money to be expended by the department. The Department of Munitions and Supply is a procurement agency for the armed services of Canada and her allies, and the funds to finance the purchase of munitions and supplies are furnished by the requisitioning agency. The Department of Munitions and Supply furnishes the operating capital required in connection with the performance of contracts pending, final settlement by the requisitioning agency. These moneys, of course, are recoverable advances. Expected recovery of working capital funds is shown in item 9 under the heading "revolving funds for working capitals".
In each annual report to parliament on the activities of the Department of Munitions and Supply, I have given a statement of our production record under general programme headings, contracting production for the current year with production in the previous year, and giving total figures of production from the beginning of the war. As this is the final report of the Department of Munitions and Supply, I think it will be of interest to the committee to have the final figures on production for the period from September 10, 1939 (the beginning of the war), to V-J day, August 15, 1945, the day on which hostilities in the Pacific cfeased. The total dollar commitment for the Department of Munitions and Supply and its predecessor agencies, the defence purchasing commission and the war supply board, is approximately twelve billion, seven hundred and fifty-one

Demobilization-Munitions and Supply
million dollars. This figure includes in addition to the total dollar value of production contracts awarded, expenditures for expansion of industrial capacity aggregating seven hundred and twentv-two million dollars, value of orders placed abroad totalling one billion and one million dollars, contracts for defence construction and housing projects approximating five hundred and twenty-eight million dollars in value, and several other smaller items such as inspection and freight costs.
The net total dollar value of production contracts awarded is approximately ten billion, five hundred million dollars. I shall not burden the committee with a detailed description of our production accomplishments, but in this final report, I should like to place on Hansard the round figures of. production in each of the various programmes. We have produced sixteen thousand, two hundred aircraft of all types from small trainers to large four-engine bombers. Our production of heavy field and naval guns to V-J day totalled twenty-eight thousand, and in addition to the guns, we have turned out thousands of barrels and forgings. Our production of rifles and machine guns at the close of the war was one million, five hundred thousand. In addition to the gun programmes, we produced one hundred million filled rounds of heavy ammunition, about sixty million units of empty shells and cartridge .cases, four billion, four hundred million rounds of small arms ammunition and more than two million tons of chemicals and explosives. Our output of automotive and armoured fighting vehicles totals eight hundred thousand. Our shipyards produced more than eight thousand ships of all kinds, and approximately one thousand of these were major merchant and naval units. The signals and communications industry has produced instruments and equipment valued at more than five hundred and fifty million dollars. The total value of construction projects undertaken by the department was seven hundred and seventy-seven million dollars. This includes defence projects and housing. The general purchasing division of the department, which was responsible for the purchase of. clothing, food, fuel and a wide variety of personal equipment had made purchases to the value of three billion, six hundred million dollars at V-J day. I might also make mention here of our remarkable accomplishments in the research field and especially of the part we have played in the development of the atomic bomb.
In my remarks on the speech from the throne, I had occasion to comment on Canada's dependency on export markets. In
this connection, a breakdown by percentages of deliveries of war materials produced in Canada, is most significant:
Per cent
To Canada	 34
To United Kingdom and other empire countries		 53
To United_States	 12
To other united	nations countries ..	1
The impact of the demands of war has brought about a tremendous expansion of industry in Canada. Approximately 60 per cent of all production in Canada during the past six years was for war uses, and as will be seen from the percentages I have just given, slightly less than 70 per cent of all war production was for export. In addition to the private investment in war production facilities estimated at five hundred million dollars, the Department of Munitions and Supply has invested approximately seven hundred and twenty million dollars in land, plant and equipment. Almost five hundred million dollars of this represents investment in new war plants wholly owned by the crown. The plant expansion programme has been complete for some time. Expenditures made since January, 1945, have been made mainly for the purposes of maintaining and repairing buildings and equipment already in use. A final statement of the investment in fixed assets by the Department of Munitions and Supply is now in the course of preparation and will be tabled in the house when final audits and adjustments have .been completed.
A quick glance at the war-time development of several of our basic industries gives some indication of the magnitude of Canada's industrial expansion during the past six years. In 1944, the effective capacity of pig iron production was one million, eight hundred thousand tons, compared with eight hundred thousand tons in 1935. The peak war-time production of ingots and castings was three million tons annually compared with a prewar annual production of one million, six hundred thousand tons. There has been an increase in manufacturing capacity in iron and steel products of all kinds of 166 per cent. Production of non-ferrous metals was about one million, three hundred thousand tons annually at the war-time peak, which is nearly three times the pre-war annual production. The most significant increases have occurred in the production of aluminum, fabricated brass and nickel. Magnesium and mercury, previously imported into Canada, have been produced at an annual rate of about five thousand tons and ten thousand tons
2244	COMMONS
Demobilization-Munitions and Supply
respectively. The number of board feet of lumber produced in 1939 was three billion, nine hundred million compared with four billion, nine hundred million at the war-time peak. This increase was achieved despite severe labour shortages. The increase in the manufacturing of chemicals and allied products is estimated at 233 per cent. One of the most noteworthy achievements in this field has been the development of a highly successful synthetic rubber industry. Synthetic rubber is now being delivered from the government-owned plant to commercial markets at a rate in excess of forty thousand tons a year. The expansion of industrial capacity and particularly the production of aluminum to meet war requirements, has resulted in an expansion of the installed capacity of central electric stations from 7-5 million horse-power in 1939 to 9-6 million horse-power to-day.
This unprecedented expansion of productive capacity has resulted in manufacturing becoming the leading industry of the country, and what is perhaps more significant, Canadian manufacturing for the first time has been placed on a prpduction rather than on an assembly basis. Products hitherto partly or wholly imported, or never produced at all, have been made in Canada. These include automobile, ship and aircraft components, radio and radar equipment, machine tools and many other items of industrial equipment. At peak production, there were one million, one hundred and eighty-six thousand employed in direct and indirect war industry, or one in every twelve persons of our population.
In citing these figures of our production record in the war years, I should like to pay tribute to the men and women of Canadian industry, -whether they be in the ranks of management or of labour, who have made this magnificent achievement possible. As we look back over the past six years, the degree of harmony which has existed between management and labour is truly remarkable. We know now the results that such cooperation can bring. I am confident that we will have the same success in solving our reconversion problems if we carry over into the post-war era this same spirit of cooperation and understanding.
In closing, I should like to say something also of those who have worked with me in the direction of the war production programme. At the high point of our programme, the Department of Munitions and Supply comprised twenty-seven crown companies engaged in a wide variety of undertakings, twelve controllers serving on the wartime
fM r. Howe. ]
industries control board, the various directors general in charge o-f production and the legal and general administrative staff of the department. For the most part, the senior personnel of the Department of Munitions and Supply were recruited from business and industry. . All of these men came to Ottawa at considerable sacrifice, and a number of them served here without any remuneration whatever. I cannot speak too highly of the loyalty and devotion they have given to their respective tasks. If our contribution of munitions and war supplies has gained for Canada a new place as an industrial nation, it is due in large measure to their industry and vision.


Mr. MACDONNELL:: I am sure there is no one in thi^ house who has not been not only interested in, but greatly impressed with, the figures which we have heard giving the remarkable record of the department over which the minister has presided during the years of the war. I am sure there is no one who wishes to be grudging in recognition of the -work that has been done by him and others. There is no disposition on our part to show anything of that spirit at all. At the same time. I take it that we have reached the turn of events where difficulties which did not exist during the war now face us. In war time, as I said on another occasion, no question was raised as to the amounts spent; all we wanted was to get production as much and as fast as we could. Now, on the other hand, we have to face the difficult task of retrenching. The minister has already told us that he expects the part of the work of the department over which he has been presiding particularly, and which has been so active during the war years, to fade awray and disappear, so that we are left with a department which will gradually shift over from the munitions and supply side to the reconstruction side. I take it that we shall have occasion to discuss that later on when the minister moves for setting up the new double departments and therefore I shall say nothing more about it now. But I shall expect and welcome the fact that we shall be given a great deal more information about how things have been going and are going and are likely to go than was possible in war time.
In war time the magic word "security" was a barrier to a great many questions, many of them no doubt questions which security demanded should not be asked, while others perhaps were questions the answering of which might not perhaps have greatly

Demobilization-Munitions and Supply
impaired security. However, that is all past and we do not need to waste time in talking about it now.
Without taking up any more of the time of the committee in general remarks, I should like to come to a few specific questions. I would ask the minister first of all if he will take the administration item of $7 million. He has already made some general references to it. He has indicated certain reductions in staff. I should be glad, however, if he would give us some figures, if he would give us a picture of this department over which he is presiding. I should like to know, for example, how many there are in the department compared with the number a year ago. If he can do so, I would ask him to split them up- and from what he said I believe he can-and tell us how many in the department now are on the munitions and supply side and how many are on the reconstruction side. I should like him to give us a general picture of the department as he sees it, because, after all, we cannot understand whether it is functioning efficiently until we know how he expects [DOT] it to function. Therefore it will be a help to us if the minister, without putting us to the necessity of asking a great many detailed questions, will give us a projection of the department so far as he can see it.
I should like to have exact figures of employees a year ago and now. I should like to get an idea in a general way, without pursuing the minister into tiresome details, of what the general break-down of the department is. He has told us what is going on now, which, he says, is very small compared with what it was several months ago. The question I would ask is, how far he has been able to reduce that staff, how much farther he will be able to go, and at what pace, having regard to the purely munitions and supply side of the case. On the other hand, how many of these employees are now on the reconstruction side and how many does he consider will be involved when the reconstruction side of the job becomes more developed?
I might remind the minister that the words of the act originally setting up the reconstruction department, as well as the words of the Prime Minister at the time it was set up, outlined a job of almost astronomical proportions, as I read it. It seemed to me a most formidable undertaking, and perhaps the minister could now, without going into the minutiate, give us a picture of this department as he sees it.
There are other questions which we shall wish to follow up, but I think it is more convenient to the minister at the moment if I stick entirely to the item of administration so that W'e may confine ourselves to that subject at the outset. Before taking my seat, I might say that the minister has made reference to the many industries-you cannot call them anything else-which have been operated under the department, with, I suppose, greater rapidity in some cases and less in others, which industries the department will cease to operate. That, however, can come later. We shall want information about that, but if the minister would see fit now to give us details along the lines I have indicated, with reference to the purely administrative staff, I think that would give us a start.


Mr. STEWART (Winnipeg North):: Are we to follow the procedure of other departments, Mr. Chairman, and have a general discussion first and then examine each item on the statement, or are we to discuss a particular part of the expenditures of the Department of Munitions and Supply?	,


Clarence Decatur Howe: It shall be as the committee wishes; I have no preference in the matter. Whichever makes for time will be agreeable to me.


The CHAIRMAN:: Is it agreed that we have a general discussion at the opening and then take up individual items?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Agreed.


Alistair McLeod Stewart: In that case I should like to say a few words on certain aspects of the Department of Munitions and Supply. I think Canada can take great pride in what the department has done. I say that as a member of a party which has consistently opposed the government, and if the country can take pride in it, so can the minister. We are all united on that. Production amounting to twelve and three-quarter billions of dollars is a tremendous piece of work for a country of the size of Canada, but -and there are always "buts" in these matters -I do not feel so happy about the situation as it exists to-day. I do not think there is so much credit coming to the minister or to the department now. The minister has referred in the past, especially when discussing the war expenditures committee, to a fishing expedition. I do not think that is in the minds of any of us. There have been extravagances possibly and wasteful expenditures, and one could scarcely expect anything else when we have had expenditures of such magnitude. These, I have no doubt, will be discussed
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afterwards. But there is more we have to consider in running a country than extravagance with money. There has been, and is today, an extravagance with Canadian manpower. To some extent in Canada to-day manpower is being wasted and squandered,-and I fear it will be more noticeable later. So far as I am concerned, wasted man-power is of much more importance than monetary extravagances. In this country we have men of great aptitudes and skills who are being left without anything at all to look forward to.
On Saturday I was in a Canadian plant, a crown plant, Research Enterprises Limited, in Toronto. This country can be proud of such a plant. Here it seemed was a living monument to the ability, the skill and the ingenuity of the people of Canada which is now becoming a tomb. Here was one of* the outstanding contributions of Canada to the war effort, which was mentioned earlier this afternoon by the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. I say it is a plant of which we can well be proud. It has all the modern facilities which one would expect, but much more than that, it has had a very happy relationship between the workers and the management. I would think that other firms might well studly the policy which was followed in Research Enterprises Limited in Toronto. The fate of this plant is unknown. I consider it one of the key plants in Canada. When we ask the minister what is to be the future of this plant we have been told

and the answer was repeated a short time ago-that this is a matter which has not yeit been decided. I can see no excuse for that attitude. It is high, time that this matter was decided.
As I said, Research Enterprises Limited is a crown company, started, I believe, at the instigation of the national research council. It. was started to manufacture optical glass, instruments, and certain secret devices. But very early we found that as the war expanded our needs expanded too. With the expansion of our needs there came an expansion of plant. New buildings were bought; new equipment was furnished, and what is even more important, men were furnished. They were trained from the raw material into highly skilled artisans in this country. What is more, we found that there was a latent faculty for invention among our people which we often suspected, and which now we know.
There is one matter I should like to tell the committee about, namely, the case of an internee who was released by the British government, and who got in touch with one of

the chemists of the Research Enterprises Limited plant. He said that cereo was used in polishing processes in Europe and it might well be used here. It had not. been known to any great extent on the North American continent. I think only one firm was using it. This chemist was a man of some imagination. He carried on development work on this suggestion, with the result that Research Enterprises Limited started to use cerium oxide for polishing, and by their doing so the work was done much more cheaply than by rouge, which, was generally used. It was a cleaner material and it cut down costs materially, a matter which I think will appeal to this committee as a whole. (Research Enterprises Limited were manufacturing this in Toronto. I 'think they were supplying other companies in United States with it. I do not know about that, but I see the minister shakes his head. I am told that the manufacture of cerium oxide is now stopped. I am told further that the chemist who was largely responsible for its production has left Research Enterprises Limited and has gone to the United States to work. I do not think we can afford to lose this man from Canada. We can talk about all the money we have, but speaking of. money does not mean very much if we are to lose our best brains and our best talents. That is where the minister and his department as a whole have fallen down.
Men have been engaged in this plant for several years learning intricate arts and polishing and grinding processes. These men of aptitude and ability, men who have had long training, are now being laid off because there is no work for them. Their training was such that Research Enterprises Limited could take its place in the same line of production with any plant in the world. These men are skilled and there is no other job in Canada of a like nature to which they can go. When they go on the labour market they are virtually unskilled so far as their employment in other lines is concerned; Their talents and abilities are no longer of use to this country. The men in the union feel strongly about this. They feel that they have something to give Canada and they would like some cooperation from the government in this regard.
Several things which can be produced at Research Enterprises Limited have been suggested by the union. The union has gone into this pretty carefully. The leaders are men of talent, and judging by the record of their plant, men whose advice can be taken with some certainty as being accurate. They

Demobilization-Munitions and Supply
have suggested that Research Enterprises Limited might be used as a permanent arsenal in Canada for the production of scientific equipment for the armed forces. They have suggested that Research Enterprises Limited might be used as a pilot plant under the direction of the national research council. The articles which they think could be produced at Research Enterprises Limited and so maintain employment are plasties, household appliances of various types, surveying instruments, scientific, apparatus and optical instruments which could be used by Canadian schools and colleges, an all Canadian aeroplane engine, light passenger aircraft, prefabricated houses, motor cycles, business machines, and so on. But the government has not yet made up its mind on what it is going to do with this plant, and so we find the team of scientists and technicians and artisans which we have built is now being broken up. Where there were seven thousand men, about a year ago I think, there are now only twenty-four hundred, and it is possible that others are leaving every day.
In Research Enterprises Limited in Toronto we have a plant for the production of optical glass and instruments which I think takes second place to no other plant* in the world. Canada has the world as its oyster in this field of production were we to carry on the industry. It is true that were we to continue production we would enter into competition with a certain notorious cartel. Once upon a time it was the Zeiss Optical company in Germany. Now Zeiss is pretty well broken up and Bausch and Lomb are trying to corral the market. I do not think the government should find it unduly difficult if we are going to enter competition with monopoly, in view of the frequent statements they have made about the evil, and indeed the iniquitous part which monopolies play in our life. Not only do we suggest that, but the suggestion has been made by much more disinterested sources to the minister and his department.
A year and a half ago Professor E. L. Burton, who is the head of the department of physics of the university of Toronto, asked that Research Enterprises Limited be continued. He asked that a year and a half ago, and yet the department does not know what its plans are or what its intentions will be. I think Professor Burton was well entitled to be the man to make such a request. He was the one who in the early days of this war saw the vital necessity of radio location. He tried to sell the Department of National Defence on the idea, but that department thought we were still fighting the last war and
turned it down. Professor Burton wanted to start classes in radio location. He wanted to train young Canadians, but he got no help from the government. Being a university professor, and therefore not one with too much remuneration, he was unable to finance and carry on the classes himself. But in Toronto there was a group of public-spirited men from one of the Kiwanis clubs who came to his aid and who enabled him to start these classes which redounded eventually to the benefit of this country.
None of us is asking or even expecting that the high rate of war output which was maintained in this branch be continued indefinitely in the future. We do not think for one moment that can be done. What we do say is this, there are other lines which can be taken up. I should like to suggest some of the things which could be manufactured in that plant. They are measuring instruments, cameras and photographic equipment, motion-picture projectors and high-class hearing aids. Television could be developed, and surveying instruments could be produced, along with automobile and aero instruments, medical and dental equipment, electronic equipment, control instruments, electrical and radio test equipment, and commercial radio and F.M. sets.
There, again, in the field of commercial radio, if we do go into production we are going into competition with what is a cartel or a monopoly. To-day we heard high tribute paid to radar. We do not know just yet how important a part radar will play in our lives. It may yet make the Hudson bay route a feasible proposition. Certainly it will be installed in every ship on any of the seven seas. Certainly it will be used in every aeroplane. Eventually, with the use of radar, We can expect that the day will come when aircraft will land with all the precision we associate with the movement of railway trains to-day. And even beyond that, it has been suggested that this great invention, which is still in its early stages, may prove a boon and a blessing to the blind. That is a field which has yet to be explored.
I know it is a cliche to say that we are living in a scientific age, but a cliche can still contain truth. In my view the government to-day lags behind science. We are told by the government that it does not know what it will do. I suggest that it does know, at least to some degree.
The charge has been made that there has been destruction of certain scientific equipment at that plant, equipment connected with
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Demobilization-Munitions and Supply
radar. In fact, I asked a question along those lines. Hansard for October 1 shows at page 628 a question standing in my name, as follows:
Have instructions been given for the destruction of any or all parts of radar equipment at R.E.L.'plant in Toronto?
The answer given was a brief and categorical, no. Then there was another question:
Did any of the employees ask permission to buy material which is being destroyed?
The answer to that was, yes. So that obviously material is being destroyed; otherwise why would that answer be given? Perhaps the minister would reconsider his answer; perhaps to-day he has additional information. I think he will agree that for one reason or another radar equipment in that plant was destroyed, and I suggest he would be well advised to admit that such was the case. There may or may not be extenuating circumstances-quite possible there may be-but I do not think this answer should be left in Hansard when many of us know that the answer is inaccurate.
We know more about the government's policy-and I refer to the policy of selling the plant. I asked again, as reported at page 604 of Hansard for the same day:
Has any part of R.E.L. plant at Toronto been
sold to the Corning Glass Company?
The answer to that question was, yes. Then I asked this question:
If so, what was the sale price?
The answer shows that the building was sold for 8150,000. I do not know what the cost was; but I know this much, that it was twice or three times that amount, because it is a magnificent building. Then I asked this question:
Whait other bids were received, and for what amounts ?
The answer to that was that no tenders were .called. Apparently it was sold by private arrangement, and was not sold under the direction of War Assets Corporation. It would seem that it was sold under an authority which apparently the minister gets under the Surplus Crown Assets Act, under which the minister may sell, exchange, lease, lend or otherwise dispose of or deal with surplus crown assets, either gratuitously or for consideration. I suggest that this sale came very close to being one of a gratuitous nature. No other tenders were called; it was sold directly to another company. I should like to know if inquiries were made by any other group or

company as to whether this plant was available for purchase. I have heard the statement made that such was the case.
Here we have a plant sold by private arrangement; but when I asked:
Did any of the employees ask permission to buy material which is being destroyed?
The answer was, yes. And the answer goes on:
Research Enterprises Limited, however, has no authority to sell any crown property. When and if such is -declared surplus and is transferred to War Assets Corporation for disposal, the rules governing disposal of war materials will apply.
That rule obviously did not apply on every occasion. There is a demand-and I think it is a genuine and legitimate one-that this plant be carried on by the Dominion of Canada, by the government. This demand comes not only from us, but from a quarter which might cause surprise to some hon. members. In this connection I should like to quote a letter from Mr. Blackstock, deputy to the premier of Ontario, addressed to Mr. Conquergood, who is associated with the union in Research Enterprises Limited. The letter states in part:
The Prime Minister subsequently wrote the Hon. J. L. Ilsley, Acting Prime Minister of Canada, expressing concern at the fact that Research Enterprises Ltd. was not to be continued in a substantial way at least, as a government operation, and at the same time expressing his views which coincided closely with those presented in your brief.
The view's expressed in the union brief were those having to do with the maintenance of Research Enterprises Limited skilled workers and administrative staff. The brief states:
Failing any satisfactory results in this effort, and if it seems apparent that the federal government is determined to dispose of this property and equipment, we would urge upon you, sir, and the government of this province, _ to take those steps that may be necessary to bring about the purchase of this plant and equipment so that the people of Ontario and, indeed, Canada, may be assured of the operation of these industries that have such tremendous peacetime possibilities for the welfare and security of every Canadian citizen.
I suggest that the committee is entitled to an answer from the minister as to what is to happen to this plant. It has been inferred that the policy of the federal government will be that of retiring actively from competition with private industry. There are no competing private industries of this kind in Canada. There are private industries outside Canada competing, but as I said they are' monopolistic, and are associated with a world cartel.

Demobilization-Munitions and Supply
This is a very important matter. It involves more than an expenditure of money. Rather it deals with the use of our man-power to the best and fullest extent, so that we may preserve those skills and aptitudes which have been built up over a period of years. I suggest that we are entitled to know what the future of this plant is to be.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Before six o'clock I should like to make one observation. I said that we would have a general discussion respecting the Department of Munitions and Supply, but the hon. member has spoken only about the Ministry of Reconstruction. When that unfortunate gentleman, the Minister of Reconstruction, comes before the 'committee, I am sure he will be very glad to discuss problems connected with reconstruction. At the present time, however, I suggest that we would get along better if we were to confine ourselves to matters connected with the Department of Munitions and Supply. I shall follow immediately after that with a statement on reconstruction. I shall be pleased to note what the hon. member has said, and to reply at that time.


Alistair McLeod Stewart: That is agreeable to me. It is hard at times, however, to distinguish between the various departments.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Mr. Chairman, I
would suggest to the minister that it might expedite matters if lie would tell us just which crown companies he feels should be dealt with under Reconstruction and which under Munitions and Supply. Just before we rose at six o'clock he pointed out. that he regarded Research Enterprises as a matter coming under Reconstruction and one that could be dealt with when we came to that department. If he could indicate what other companies, such as Polymer, should come under Reconstruction, it might simplify matters.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The distinction is that we
are dealing with 'the war-time operations of a crown company. Crown companies that functioned as war plants can be dealt with under Munitions and Supply, but if the future of the plant in which the war operations were carried on is under consideration and other arrangements are being madp *hat is a matter for
Reconstruction, In other words, a plant that is declared surplus to government requirements would fall under the Department of Reconstruction and its future would be planned by that department. In the case of Research Enterprises the plant was engaged wholly in making war materials. The contracts are. coming to an end and the future of the. plant for peace-time use is in the hands of the Department of Reconstruction. As far as Polymer is concerned, that plant was making a material which could be used either for war or peace and it is still being operated by the Department of Munitions and Supply as it was in the war years.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Would that apply
to Melbourne Trading?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is in process of liquidation; it is still Munitions and Supply. It is a trading company and it is being liquidated by Munitions and Supply.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: What about Eldorado?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is continuing its operations; it is producing a war material and it will continue to be operated in the future as it has been in the past. The amalgamation of the two departments will automatically solve many of these problems.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: What about Wartime Metals?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Wartime Metals has been
liquidated, it is no longer in existence. It was wholly a creature of Munitions and Supply. Generally speaking, crown companies are' under Munitions and Supply, but the future of 'the buildings in. some cases rests with the Department of Reconstruction.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: What about War
Assets?


Clarence Decatur Howe: War Assets is under Department of Reconstruction.


Mr. FLEMING:: It was my intention to
discuss Research Enterprises and the future of that plant. In view of the statement made by the minister just before the committee rose at six o'clock, I Should like to know if it is your view, Mr. Chairman, that this matter should be discussed when we reach the estimates of the Department of Reconstruction. If that is so, I am quite prepared to defer my remarks until that time, but I should like a ruling on that point.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Since Research Enterprises
has been, discussed at some length, perhaps we might have a full discussion on it to-night.
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Demobilization-Munitions and Supply
I am quite prepared to discuss it to-night except that it brings us definitely into the field of reconstruction. If it could be under-stood that we shall regard Research Enterprises as a special case and defer discussion of the same types of problem until the Department of Reconstruction is reached, that would solve the situation. If that is satisfactory we could make an exception in the case of Research Enterprises, since it is a sort of borderline case.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I am agreeable to allowing it to stand until we come to it in the regular way. I do not want to take it up out of its turn.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Having permitted a rather long discussion on Research Enterprises, I think in fairness we should finish it up tonight, but I should not like it to be a precedent.


Mr. MacINNIS:: I believe the question was raised by the h-on. member for Winnipeg North, and I think the statement was made that this would be taken up when we were discussing the Department of Reconstruction. I notice the hon member is not in his seat at the moment, and if we go ahead with the discussion he may miss it owing to' a misunderstanding.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I would prefer to deal with this matter when we can discuss a similar series. The future use of war plants is a rather broad subject. If my hon. friend is willing to allow Research Enterprises to stand over until we come to reconstruction, when we can discuss the future of any plants that have been turned over to peace-time use, perhaps that would be best.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I am quite agreeable to that.


William Ross Macdonald: It is understood by all hon. members of the committee that dominion enterprises which will come under the new Department of Reconstruction will be left over for future discussion.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: The minister read a list of cities. in which this housing plan is to be operated and he covered every province except Prince Edward Island. I should like to know if the municipalities in that province have made any further requests to -those which were made in person by the mayors and city clerks who were here a week ago to interview him in his office, or has it been neglect of our province on the part of the administration?


Clarence Decatur Howe: An application for wartime housing must be more than a request; it ' must be a formal application by a city council passed officially, and it must carry with it an undertaking to provide the lots on which the houses a-re to be built and to meet the terms required under the Wartime Housing agreement which imposes certain obligations on the municipality. We have never had a formal application from any municipality in the province mentioned by my hon. friend. When such application is received we shall be able to consider it, but I suggest that the reason we have not received one is that housing is not very badly needed there. .


William Ross Macdonald: Do I understand that we are to take up the items? A number of questions that have been asked could properly be taken up under the items. For instance, the last question referred to housing, which is item 3, and earlier questions on departmental administration would definitely come under tha-t item. Shall we start to take up the estimates item by item? It was suggested that we take up departmental administration. Is there any objection to that?


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I just want to have this clear. As I understand it, the companies whose operations are to be continued will come under the Department of Reconstruction, and I understand also that the discussion of War Assets will come under reconstruction.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is right.


William Ross Macdonald: Shall we start with departmental administration? I believe the hon. member for Muskoka-Ontario had asked certain questions.
Departmental administration, $7,000,000.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The hon. member asked the strength of Munitions and Supply as of November 1, 1944; the answer is 4,500. As of November 1, 1945, the figure is 2,500. The strength of the Department of Reconstruction -as the two departments are to be amalgamated, this is quite interesting-as of November 1, 1945, was 300; it is estimated that as of January 1, 1946, it will be 350.
After the amalgamation of the departments, which we hope will be accomplished before the present -month ends, we expect that the combined strength will be approximately 2,500 by the first of the year, dropping to 2,000 by April 1, 1946. I might poipt out that while the work of placing and supervising contracts has almost stopped, the work of settling contracts is greatly augmented. My fear is, not

Demobilization-Munitions and Supply
that we shall not reduce staff fast enough but that we shall not be able to keep senior personnel in sufficient strength to do this job of contract settlement expeditiously. Every contract has to be audited; then there is the matter of renegotiation, which is a tremendous job in itself. Every contract must be considered by the renegotiation office to determine whether renegotiation is necessary, and if it is [DOT] necessary, to work out the terms. Then there must be contract settlements. Those three. occupations require a very large staff, in fact a larger staff than we are able to provide of trained personnel, and that work will continue for some months to come.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Another question. As I read it, the actual expenditures for the work will be approximately the same as the estimate, roughly $7 million?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, we are really passing the
estimates which were filed last April.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I mean, looking at
the first two columns.
Mr. HOWE-: Yes; they add up to the amount we specified for the department in ' April. The termination of the war will reduce the requirements of the department. I call the attention of my hon. friend to the faei^ that we are dealing with an over-all bill for some $1,365 million. This is only a breakdown for purposes of discussion, and this amount is not being appropriated by itself; a bill in which this is included is being prepared. I daresay my hon. friend could cut a million dollars from this amount; but a million dollars from the war appropriation bill would not be a very important matter.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I suppose that is
true; and yet, if I may say so, it seems to me that that is another instance of a fact that worries me, that apparently a million dollars does not count at all. As I understand the minister, these figures are not even intended to be the actual representation of what is happening. In other words, apparently this' does not take into account the fact that the minister's staff is down by a considerable number. Is that correct?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is correct, yes. .


James MacKerras Macdonnell: It does seem to me that that is an awfully free and easy way of dealing with money.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Additions and extensions to plants, $15,000,-
000.
['It does seem to me that that is an awfully free and easy way of dealing with money.']
Mr. GILLIS:: 
Clarence Decatur Howe: I assume that the reason the mill is not operating is that the custodian of it is not able to sell the product. The dominion itself was a large buyer of steel plate during the shipbuilding programme. Now that the shipbuilding programme is finished, it is not a buyer of plate at all. I can speak only as to dominion requirements. My hon. friend is quite right; the mill belongs to the dominion. If he can find a buyer I would be glad to offer a very low cost on the mill; we will turn it over to War Assets, and he will be delighted with the trade. I am looking for a buyer; perhaps he can help me out.	,


Mr. IRVINE:: Why sell it?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The minister in 'making his statement this afternoon indicated that this first item, "additions and extensions to plants", was mostly for the Chalk River atomic energy plant. Would he be good enough to give the committee some further break-down of this large amount of $15 million? I am thinking of a break-down along these lines: the plant itself, that is the manufacturing plant; and the settlement or town
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which is under construction there. I ask the minister to give the committee some information with regard to the contract under which the townsite is being constructed; that is, information as to the cost, the basis of the contract, the completion date, and the extent . of the buildings contemplated.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I find it difficult to discuss the details of the plant. As my hon. friend knows, the atomic bomb plant or the plant making materials used therein is still a secret. I visited the plant yesterday myself for the first time, and I spent at least an hour of my day trying to pass various guards and get my clearance so that I could move from one part of the plant to another.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Perhaps the minister misunderstood me. I was not suggesting a break-down as to the items entering into the total representing the cost of the plant; I was rather directing my inquiiy to a breakdown as between the plant on one hand and the townsite on the other. I take it that the *remarks of the minister as to secrecy do not apply to the townsite. Perhaps the minister could give the committee some information 'as to what the townsite cost.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The townsite is built to
accommodate a population of about 1,500. The houses were very largely moved over from other projects; in fact most of the buildings were moved there, some from Arvida, some from Nobel, some from projects in the Montreal area. The assembly hall and the moving-picture theatre were moved there from elsewhere. I have not the details of the project; I can get them if they would be of any help. Of course the vast bulk of the expenditure was on the, part of the plant which we cannot talk very much about.


William Ross Macdonald: Does the item carry?


Donald Methuen Fleming: No, Mr. Chairman. This is a very important item, and I think the committee should fully understand what is being carried on at the present time in construction on the townsite. I am not proposing to say anything about the atomic bomb plant, because frankly I do not know anything about it, and I do not suppose that any hon. member, with the exception of the minister, knows anything of the- plant itself. But there are some facts with reference to the townsite-its location, and the expenditures on it-of which the committee, I believe, ought to be aware. I would ask the minister before we leave his estimates to bring down and furnish to the committee some further information along the lines of the inquiry I have just directed toward him.
TMr. Fleming.l
In the first place I should like to say a word about the location of the towmsite. There are matters in connection with it which I think present questions that the minister ought to answer. Although there is an existing town on the railway a matter of six miles from the plant itself, when it came to locating the townsite, that existing site with some hundreds of people living there was deliberately passed over and a site selected some seven miles north. This meant that all the building material coming in for use in the construction of the townsite had to come to the railway station at Chalk River and be put on trucks and taken a further distance of about seven miles to the point where this new townsite called Deep River is being carved out of the bush. That is the first point. It is not the sort of thing that would suggest itself to anyone who knows the situation there as being the logical or the reasonable thing to do. If for reasons of secrecy or of safety it is not prudent to locate the townsite close to the plant, then why was it found desirable to move the townsite some distance north and to pass up an existing towmsite offering existing services, and go into the wilderness and start to carve a town-site out of the bush?
As to the construction itself, there is sufficient evidence there to call for much more supervision than is being given b3' the department to the work that is going on at the present time. I would ask the minister to furnish the committee with particulars of the contract. I am particularly interested in the type of contract under which construction is proceeding at that site, because if my information is correct there has been a great deal of delay. I understand that this is a cost-plus contract, there has been delay after delay in the completion of the work, and at the present time the site is still far from completion.
Moreover, not very much consideration has been given to those who are either employed or employing men in some of the adjacent communities. The wages which have been paid at the site to those engaged in construction have been very high. They are very much higher than those prevailing in the nearby communities, with the result that labour conditions have been completely upset. The plants in Pembroke, for instance, have not been able to get the labour they require and it is all because the whole wage structure in that general locality has been disturbed. The government, through its agencies, has gone on enforcing wage ceilings on the

_____________Demobilization-Munitions and Supply
employers in the nearby communities like Pembroke, expecting them to try to hold their labour, while a few miles away a contractor engaged in the construction of this Deep River townsite is paying wage rates sometimes twice as high as those normally prevailing. In the face of that situation-


Humphrey Mitchell: What is wrong with good
wages?


Donald Methuen Fleming: There is nothing wrong with good wages and the minister will never find me finding fault with good wages, but I would ask the Minister of Labour if he thinks it is fair to keep labour in places like Pembroke 'working under low wage ceilings, while higher wages prevail elsewhere. If it is fair that high wages be paid to men engaged in the construction of that townsite, why should the minister go on enforcing low wage ceilings in towns like Pembroke? It is not fair.
Let me give one or two illustrations, because I am urging on the minister that the situation, there does call for more supervision on the part of the department than has been apparent at that site. Here is a sample. A man who had been employed in a plant at Pembroke wras discharged for a sufficient reason. He was not a man of any particular skill, but he turned up shortly on the townsite as foreman drawing $2.50 an hour, without qualifications to perform a foreman's work.
Let me give another instance. I bring these forward because I hope the minister will endeavour to exercise more supervision ' than is being given at the present time over those engaged in the construction of the town-site and the buildings on it. A man was sitting on a pipe up there one day tapping away at it and my informant went up to him and had a chat with him. This was on the town-site on a Sunday morning. He was sitting there smoking his pipe and merely tapping away on this pipe at intervals, accomplishing nothing. My informant asked him what he was doing, and he found out that this man was a pipe fitter who worked in Montreal and who came to the townsite at week-ends. He arrived on Friday night and on Saturday morning he drew regular time. Saturday afternoon he drew time and a half, and Saturday evening and Sunday, double time, $2.50 an hour. This was the way he spent his time. In other words, there is no supervision there *and that pipe fitter simply tapped occasionally with his hammer to let people know he was around.
I do not think that is the way we want to see the money of the people of this country spent. It is due to the committee that the
minister should give much more information than has been made available, in regard to this contract and particularly as to the extent of supervision exercised by the department. I am sure that if there were effective supervision such waste would not be tolerated.
I suggest, too, that we should have much more information than we have received in regard to school locations, the provision of other services and why they could not have been adequately provided at the existing site of Chalk river on the railway. They are there now. We have not had any information in regard to cost of construction of the plant. If the minister says that there are certain things which should not be disclosed I am not prepared to question his judgment on the matter, and I shall accept his statement with respect to the need for secrecy. But I think it should be known that this location is not so very far from Petawawa Camp, and there we have had army engineers quite capable of doing the type of work done in the bush where they are now carving out a townsite. Moreover, that is a sensible exercise that might have been carried out by the army engineers on that location. It is a short distance away, and a useful project might have been carried out by the army engineers, with some saving to the taxpayers.
I offer this suggestion for the consideration of the two ministers whose departments are concerned because, with engineers a few miles away desiring some project on which they might employ themselves, this was an opportunity that might have been afforded them to good advantage. I offer these suggestions to the minister because I believe that on these matters, speaking of the townsite contract and the expenditures on the work, the committee is entitled to a good deal of information. We should have information in regard to the delay in completing the work; we should know why it has run along apparently on this cost-plus basis which enables men to make their money as easily as the pipe fitter was making his on that sunny Sunday morning.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I marvel as I sit here and think how simple it is to build a new type of plant from a law office in Toronto. We have been short of men, in spite of these high wages, since the inception of that job. We resorted to every device we could think of- and I have had some experience in this type of work during the war years-to get men for ordinary labour and particularly for the skilled trades. The hon. member mentioned
2254	COMMONS
Demobilization-Munitions and Supply______
pipe fitters. We have scoured the country from Vancouver to Halifax to get them. I was there yesterday and found the contractor using German prisoners of war, men in uniform from Petawawa, and hiring every man who could be hired.
I think of these things when we get resolutions from the other side of the house about the present serious unemployment problem. I wonder why it is so hard to get men for such a project. Nevertheless I might point out that this is not a project you can let on the basis of a lump-sum contract. The designing of the plant was a major feature. There was never a plant like it built in the world. The process had to be worked out in the laboratory while the plant was being designed. The engineering plan was one short jump ahead of construction, even though we have not been able to push construction as fast as we liked. The design of the last portion of the plant is being carried on now while they. are pouring the last of the concrete. It is not a plant that you can take out of the drawer of a desk and say to a contractor, "Go and build this." More study was put into the location of that site than I believed was possible. A dozen sites were looked at and rejected before that one was chosen. There were many factors to be considered, including the purity of water and particularly, of course, the question of safety.
My hon. friend suggested that we should build it against the town of Chalk River. I do not think that would have been a good idea. We received the most expert advice we could get from the United Kingdom and this continent as to the question where the village should be. All the factors were considered. I may say to my hon. friend that I did not like the idea of building a new village any more than he likes it now. It was done for security reasons, and for reasons which seemed good to me at the time. It was desirable that the employees of that plant should be separately housed, and housed within the barbed wire that encloses the three or four square miles which represent the town-site. All I can say is that we took the best advice we could get, advice from scientists, people who really understood the problem, and we followed that advice.
So far as the actual drafting of the plans is concerned, we put that into the hands of the people who we thought had greater experience in designing plants where safety was the important factor than anyone else. We put it into the hands of Canadian Industries Limited and their engineering department. They have had some two hundred draftsmen

allocated to the job for the last year and a half. Construction was also under the supervision of Canadian Industries Limited. It was carried out by the firm of Fraser, Brace, who are the greatest builders of explosive plants in Canada. They have a splendid reputation. The same engineers, under the same contractors, have been responsible for the townsite as well as for the plant itself. We have had supervision there; we have had engineers there throughout looking after the interests of the department. I have not been there every day, but my reports indicate that the money has been well spent. It has been a tremendous sum of money, staggering to anyone, but hon. members could understand it better if they saw the material that goes into the plant itself. Nevertheless I make no apologies for the way in which that project has been carried on. Men who are responsible for the expenditure of something over two billion dollars on similar plants in the United States have complimented us. They have visited the plant frequently and have told us it has been especially well designed and constructed. The speed at which it is being constructed is somewhat greater than they had suggested to me would probably be possible.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Is the minister going to give the committee any information in regard to the contract? Is there a separate contract with this firm for the construction of the townsite and the construction of the manufacturing plant?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No; it is all one contract.


Mr. JOHNSTON:: I should like to say a word about this plant. The Minister of Munitions and Supply has some responsibility as Minister of Supply and as Minister of Reconstruction in seeing that the plants which have been used for war purposes are converted to peace-time production. If the matter is not attended to properly even in this transition period we shall find ourselves in the position where there will be an ever-increasing unemployment roll. I refer particularly to my own city of Calgary and to the Ogden shops. The Odgen shops did have a large employment roll during the war period. That shop has now reduced its employment roll to pre-war levels, with the result that many men are wandering around the streets in search of employment. We have another situation in Calgary similar to that which I have already drawn to the minister's attention, namely, the Calgary Rolling Mills. The government has made an investment of
.NOVEMBER 19, 1945	2255
Demobilization-Munitions and Supply
thousands of dollars in that plant to assist the company to produce war materials and it served a very good purpose during the war. The time has now come when the Calgary Rolling Mills, along with the Ogden shop, are beginning to reduce their staff. They are looking to peace-time employment, with the result that Calgary is again to be faced with the same old problem of unemployment.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The hon. member is definitely in the field of reconstruction. Would he mind deferring this until we deal with the reconstruction estimates ?


Charles Edward Johnston: I realize that this is
only partly in the Department of Munitions and Supply because that department did have a great investment in that plant in war time. I am trying to point out to the minister, however, that the Department of Reconstruction should take immediate steps while it is being transferred over to peace-time production.	[DOT]


William Ross Macdonald: Order. Before the hon. member came into the house it was agreed that questions with regard to the Department of Reconstruction would be held over until the estimates of that department were before the committee. It was agreed by all members of the committee that we would consider the items that have been presented to the committee. Each member agreed that matters of reconstruction would be held over until a later time.


Charles Edward Johnston: All right; I have no
objection to that so long as we can take up the questions more thotoughly when those estimates come up.


Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: I think there is
one matter which does come under this head, namely the investigation regarding the Eldorado Mining and Refining Company Limited. It is a matter which I intend to deal with for a few moments with the view of getting an elucidation of the circumstances connected with the investigation following the taking over of that plant under the orders in council that have been passed by the government with reference to this matter.
During this session of parliament the leader of the apposition has taken a very firm stand against the substitution of order in council government for parliament. One of the most outstanding examples of an order in council that results in gross interference with the rights of the individual is the order in council that was passed on September 5 last.
I realize that there was necessity for secrecy prior to August 6, 1945, when the atomic bomb became known to the world. The government took over the Eldorado proposition on January 27, 1944, in order to assure that the raw material necessary for the production of atomic bombs would be available and that secrecy would be maintained. After an investigation into the company's operations under the foreign exchange provisions, which was made in the months of February and March, an order in council, P.C. 3329, was passed on May 7, 1945. That order in council empowered the commissioner to investigate alleged irregularities in connection with the operations of Eldorado and the sale or other disposition of its products. I have no interest whatever in this corporation. If there has been any wrongdoing on the part of either this corporation or any of its officials, it is a matter for the state to prevent and to punish adequately.
Investigation was started and it proceeded for a period of some months. The commissioner was Mr. J. G. Glassco, a chartered accountant of the city of Toronto. Then on September 5, 1945, an order in council was passed, which in my opinion represents the limit in the matter of order in council legislation ever passed in this or any other country. I am going to read certain sections of this order in council on which to base the argument that I intend to make and the questions that I intend to ask the minister. Paragraph 2 reads as follows:
And whereas the Minister of Munitions and Supply is of the opinion that it is desirable and in the public interest that for the sake of facilitating the said inquiry, which has already been commenced, the said order in council P.C. 3329 should be amended and supplemented as hereinafter mentioned.
1. Any investigator appointed under the said order in council is hereby empowered to inquire into any or all matters relating to or incidental to or arising out of any dealing whether in Canada or elsewhere, in or with any of the products of Eldorado.
There,can be no objection so far, but when we come to the sections that follow number one we find an invasion of private rights and an invasion of public rights unexampled1 anywhere since the days of the star chamber. The committee may think that statement is overdrawn. I refer the committee now to the sections in question. After empowering the commissioner to make this inquiry, it says not only can he inquire into Eldorado and all its ramifications but in addition thereto in his absolute discretion he m'ay inquire into any matter which he may deem relevant to or
2256	COMMONS [DOT]
Demobilization-Munitions and Supply
desirable for the purposes of the inquiry. Thgn the investigator is empowered to authorize any Royal Canadian Mounted Police officer or constable to enter and search, if necessary by force, any building, receptacle or place where books, records and so on are kept. That right I am not going to challenge. That right, I believe, in the interests of an investigation, while it goes a long way, might very well be necessary. I come to paragraph 5:
5. Any such investigator is hereby empowered to conduct the said inquiry in such manner as he, in his absolute discretion, may deem proper, and in particular, without limiting the generality of the foregoing, from time_ to time to determine the extent, if any, to which counsel and/or any other person shall be permitted to 'be or to remain present at or to participate in the said inquiry.
I say that any order in council which goes to the extent of empowering an investigator to carry on any investigation that he deems proper, whether relevant or not, and denies those brought before that commissioner the right to have counsel, is the most retrogressive step ever made in any order ifa council. This is not the first case. I might mention that in a judgment on appeal within the last three weeks in the province of Saskatchewan, Mr. Justice Taylor on an appeal by the Minister of Justice decided that, when counsel is excluded, from then on any proceedings are illegal, improper, unfair and unjustifiable.
If we in this parliament allow this invasion of private rights to go on unchallenged, we simply open the door for the widening, on an ever-increasing scale, of the powers of investigators, so that they may investigate any matter and summon before them any person, and not only deny that person counsel, but deny him protection under the Canada Evidence Act.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: The Minister of Justice
says, no, but it is true.


John George Diefenbaker: I say it is. I am sure the hon. member for Waterloo South misinterpreted the nod of the Minister of Justice.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: He did not say, yes.


John George Diefenbaker: I repeat that Mr. Justice Taylor in this judgment held that it was unfair that under the Excise Act a man suspected should be brought before a member of the mounted police and denied the opportunity to have counsel, and alsb denied the privilege of asking for protection under the Canada Evidence Act.
I Mr. Diefenbaker.]
A like situation is embalmed in an order in council. I am willing to admit the necessity for wide powers in an investigation, but I miist ask thd tninister this qiiestion: On what basis, and upon what ground or justification can he stand up in parliament and say that a man brought before an investigator possessing absolute power should be denied not only the right of protection but also the opportunity of being represented there by counsel?
This is not a matter which affects only legal traditions in this country. It is one which affects every individual. It is the thing against which, in the days of Charles I, the strongest possible condemnation was made. It is a restoration in 1945 of powers in Canada which have never been successfully introduced in a period of at least one hundred yqars, or, to be exact, since 1834.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: I am not surprised at that.


John George Diefenbaker: No matter what the investigator does; no matter how unlawful his conduct may be; no matter in what highhanded a way he may conduct his investigation; no matter whether it be within the law or without the law, by section 8 he is protected from any responsibility whatsoever.
These are the words in section 8:
No such investigator shall be responsible 'ait law for anything done by him in good faith in the performance or purported performance of bis duties as such investigator, and no action shall be taken against any such investigator in respect to the performance or purported performance or non-performance of his duties as such investigator.
In other words, there is granted to an investigator a power that would be challenged in every court of this country; he is given power to act legally or illegally either withfi^ or without the law, and then he is bolstered* up by a section in an order in council which reads that for illegal acts he will not be liable at law.
I say this to you, sir, that when the right of appeal to a court is denied in this couniry, the opportunity for and the privilege of justice ends. In order to deny any person justice although unfairly taken advantage of under these provisions, section 10 was added as follows:
No proceedings by way of injunction, mandatory order, mandamus prohibition, certiorari or otherwise shall be instituted against any such investigator or any Other person for or in respeot of any act or omission of himself or any other person . . .

Demobilization-Munitions and Supply
That order in council confers absolute powers upon an individual, and thereby constitutes that person not only an investigator, but also the judge of the things in respect of which he is investigator. Every recourse to the courts is denied. And all opportunity of any one securing justice has been prevented by the addition of section 8.
I found out about this order in council early in October, and a question was passed as an order for return on October 10 the purport of which was as follows:	How many
orders ini council have been passed since May 6, 1945, that deny the individual the right of recourse to the courts? I did not get an answer. Investigation was made with a view to ascertaining


Clarence Decatur Howe: May I ask the hon. member
what individual has been denied access to the courts.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Everybody.


John George Diefenbaker: Everybody within
its purview.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No one has been charged: with anything.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: O'h, don't be facetious.


Mr. SMITH (Calgary West):: The minister needs counsel.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: He needs common sense.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: 
Clarence Decatur Howe: Well, Mr. Chairman-


John George Diefenbaker: The minister will
be answering in a minute. His best answers' at the present time are interruptions.
After I had ascertained that there had been some order in council in this connection,
I asked a question on October 3, and the order in council was not brought down for three weeks.	However, about October 25 the
Financial Post ascertained the circumstances connected with this order in council. During the period I was endeavouring to secure this order in council, Mr. Thompson, of the Department of Munitions and Supply, was communicated with. He was asked whether
of not he would produce this order in council. My information is that his answer was that the order in council was in his drawer. Later on, he said that he would send a copy of the order in council to the leader of the opposition, by secret messenger, but that its contents were not to be revealed, and that it was to be returned. It was to be returned after examination-


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Chairman, this is something unusual. Did1 someone apply to an official in my department for a document? That, it sieems to me, is what is referred to. Which Mr. Thompson?


John George Diefenbaker: He is the man in
charge.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is a bit of sculduggery, I
should think.


John George Diefenbaker: Now, Mr. Chairman, I always try to exhibit good manners in parliament and I would ask the minister to follow a like course. The minister says he does not know who Mr. Thompson is. He was the man who had custody of the ordeT in council which takes away the rights of individuals in this country. Finally it was produced on October 25.


William Ross Macdonald: The hon. member must take the mifiister's w-ord.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: No, you don't-no.


John George Diefenbaker: I bow to your
ruling, Mr. Chairman. I accept 'the minister's word, and it indicates that this order in council was passed without his knowledge or consent.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Let us have no nonsense.
There are several people named Thompson in my department. I asked which Thompson it was. I certainly said I did not know which man named Thompson. I asked who would inquire from an official of my department for an official government document.


John George Diefenbaker: I did not make the inquiry. That was made by someone else.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Who did?


Mr. McILRAITH:: How do you know it
was made?


John George Diefenbaker: Probably if you
communicate with Mr. Thompson, the man who had the order in council in-his possession, he-should know something about it, and would be able to tell you what the situation is. It was the Financial Post that brought it to
2258	COMMONS
Demobilization-Munitions and Supply ____
light. After the Financial Post brought it forth, a few days later it was brought down; and tabled by the minister in the house.
There is another order in council passed since May, which denies a person brought before an investigating body the opportunity and privilege of being represented by council. The other was under the seamen's act, and the order in council was passed in May of 1945.


Mr. POULIOT:: Harry Borden was the
nigger in the woodpile.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: There are a lot of Ethiopians over there too.


John George Diefenbaker: Henry Borden has been out for a year and a half, so that he cannot be held responsible for this order in council. There never was one passed like it while he was in a position of control in the government of this country.
Why was recourse to the courts denied? Why was it necessary to deny any individual brought before the commission, set up under the order in council the privilege of being represented by counsel? Why was it deemed necesshry to deny any person aggrieved the right of appeal to the courts? Why was it deemed necessary to deny the principle that was enunciated here this afternoon by the Right Hon. Clement Attlee, namely the rule of law, the great principle of this country and of the empire? I protest- against this order in council that denies equality under the law, the right of recourse to law, the right to be represented by counsel and,, finally, the right in 1945 not to be haled by subpoena before a star chamber set up by the government for investigation purposes wherein the individual enters and has no opportunity to defend himself against an investigator who has been invested with powers far and beyond those ever granted to any judge.
Why the necessity for denying any individual rights which, have been the rights of freemen since the days of magna charta? I think of one paragraph in the magna charta which reads as follows:
To no one will we sell, to no one will we refuse or delay right or justice.
This order in council flouts the highest principles of responsible government; it denies the right to equal jurisprudence under the law. However justifiable the investigation may have been, I ask the minister this: Did he give instructions for the passing of this order in council? Did he make the recommendation

denying the rights to which I have already referred? The war was over when this order in council was passed. The other day the Minister of Finance said that the government, had produced orders in council ever since 1941-The order in' council under the seamens' act and the order in council respecting Eldorado were not produced until the government was-forced to produce them.
The war was over when this order in council was passed. In all the march along the road from 1939 to 1945 of 90,000 orders in council that were passed, did any others excepting the one under the seamens' act purport to go as far? After the last war, according to the debates of parliament-they were referred to the other day by my leader-the Prime Minister condemned the government of Sir Robert Borden, and its successor the Meighen government, for order in council government. Look at the record. Between 1914 and 1919, 730 orders in council were passed under the War Measures Act. During the period of this war and since the end of the war, because there have been a number of orders in council passed since the end of the war, there have been some 90,000, including treasury orders. In 1918, 1919 and 1920 the then opposition condemned that trend as being unrepresenta-' tive, but what of to-day? The tree-of 1914-18 has become the forest of 1939-45.
In May last the Minister of Munitions and Supply said that we were going to get rid of undemocratic trends in government as soon as possible, necessary though they had been on account of the war. He said' that we were going to demobilize unnecessary controls. When I look at the amount of divestiture that has taken place since the end of the war, all I can say is that it certainly has been of the strip-tease variety; the Canadian people have expected a lot more than it has secured to date in this regard.
I am suggesting that the minister frankly place before the committee the situation in this matter. I expect him not only to explain the situation but to give this committee and the country the assurance that from this date on interferences such as these with private rights will not be tolerated by this government, and furthermore that the opposition will not have to pry loose the orders in council that have been passed as secret during the period of the war and since, and assuring their production to parliament. If there was nothing wrong with the order in council, why hide it from parliament from September 5 until almost November 1? The question regarding this order in council was on the or$ler paper from October 3 until" November 3. If there

Demobilization-Munitions and Supply
was nothing the government was fearful to have revealed, why the delay in production, for the fact is that the order in council, if revealed, would not in any way have interfered with the investigation that was taking place.
I ask hon. members on all sides of the house" to look at this matter from the point of view of justice and fairness; to demand the return to this parliament of its right to legislate; to assure that we are guardians of the rights of the people in their quest for justice, and to demand of the government that order in council government shall end while parliament is in session and that gross interferences with the rights of the individual shall no longer be tolerated by this parliament.


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend has built up a very dramatic speech on slender material. He has made a great deal of the fact that we were hiding orders in council. As a matter of fact, my colleague (Mr. Mellraith) who is at present sitting with me reminded me that he had these orders in council in his desk for two or three weeks. He asked me two or three times if we would table them and I said that we had better wait until somebody asked for them.


John George Diefenbaker: The question was asked on October 8.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The question was to table orders in council since September 2. I wish my hon. friend would show me the question; I would appreciate that very much.


John George Diefenbaker: Apparently the
minister did not know of my question.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Nevertheless we will discuss the Eldorado question. The Eldorado situation was not a usual situation. The property was taken over at a time when the mere mention of uranium sent a shudder through many thousands of people who were engaged in a project that meant a great deal to the ending of the war. We hesitated for months before we dared to take the step we knew we must take, because we were afraid of the publicity. Finally we did it by order in council. I stood in the house here and asked hon. members not to ask questions about it, and I must say that they were most obliging in that regard. They respected my statement that it was a matter which could not be discussed, for reasons associated with the war.
The product of that mine has a tremendous war potential. I do not need to discuss that. The three leaders of the democratic world met in Washington all last week to discuss the product of that material and its use. It
was important to know where that material went, whether it is produced in Canada or produced in any other part of the world. Some months ago there was a change in the directorate of Eldorado. The secretary of the company resigned for no particular reason. Some doubt was cast upon some of the transactions of the company. Whether there was any justice in those doubts I cannot say, but having in mind that we were dealing with a material of such tremendous war potential it was believed to be most necessary to know whether any of that material had gone astray, whether there was any material not accounted for.
Therefore Mr. Grant Glassco was charged with the duty of investigating. His job was to trace every transaction, either in radium or in uranium, and to determine the ultimate destination of the product. That seems a simple thing. In fact the government in time of war is entitled to know that, having in mind the enormous destructive potentiality of the material.
He attempted to examine several people, one or two of whom were agents of the company and acting in an agency capacity, while others were officers of the company or former officers of the company. It would seem to me that those explanations would be simple; I did not think there would be any great difficulty about the investigation when the investigator was first appointed. I believed he could get the facts quite easily and be able to reconcile any discrepancies that appeared. But that was not his experience. What did we find?
We found that every man called to explain his part in the transactions produced a lawyer, and that those lawyers considered it to be their duty to obstruct the obtaining of any information. One cannot but remember the old biblical saying, "The wicked flee when no man pursueth". We had charged no one with anything; no one was even suspected'; we were just trying to find out the facts. Remember that the war was still going on; the atomic bomb had not been used. The use of the atomic bomb did not change the seriousness of the situation. To-d'ay it is just as necessary to know the destination of every particle of that material as it was before the bomb was used; in fact, perhaps it is more necessary, because the possibilities of its use may be more serious now than before the effect of the bomb was known. We are tracing these transactions through with all. the expedition we can use. We are trying to find out. We have not found out yet, but we are pretty certain that eventually we shall know.
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Demobilization-Munitions and Supply______
If there has been wrongdoing, charges will be laid; if not, we shall at least know the answer; we shall know that the material did not go astray. If it did go astray, the man responsible will be brought before a court of justice. He will not be denied justice. Any charges made will be presented in open court, and no advantage will be taken of the fact that we have used means which are perhaps unusual to trace the destination of this element. My hop. friend can make the most of it; he can be as forensic as he likes. Nevertheless we have done what we believe to-day it was necessary to do. The action of the government has been challenged in the courts, as I assume my hon. friend knew when he made his speech.


John George Diefenbaker: I was aware of it. But you were trying to take away the right.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We shall know eventually the view of the courts on the order in council. Perhaps the court will agree with the hon. member that we are acting ultra vires; perhaps not; but in any event if I had to do it again I would do exactly the same thing. I sincerely hope that we shall be able to trace the destination of every ounce of ore that ever came from Eldorado. If we can do so, no harm will have been done; but if there has been wrongdoing, I believe that we would be open to serious censure for not taking any action that is indicated as a result of the findings.


John George Diefenbaker: I have listened
with interest to the explanation. There is no endeavour to excuse the dictatorial complex which is exhibited in the order in council. Apparently no excuse can be offered for the passage of a secret order in council or for the denial to parliament of .information regarding the order in council until the press finally brought it to light. More than that, I was amazed to hear the minister say, "I have had the order in council in my drawer for three weeks, and as my colleague the parliamentary assistant advises me, I was waiting for someone to ask for its production but as they did not do it I did not produce it." Let me point out that prior to October 10, I had asked the question which was passed as an order for return on that day, as reported in Hansard, at page 898. The question was simply this:
Have any orders in council been passed since the 8th of May, 1945, wherein (a) recourse to the courts by a party aggrieved by decision of a board, commissioner or controller is specifically denied; (b) a commissioner or investi-

gating officer has the power in any proceeding to deny the right of a person appearing before same to be represented by counsel?
If so, give particulars?
That question was asked.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It was certainly a roundabout approach.


John George Diefenbaker: Well when it comes to talking about roundabout approaches, the exhibition which the minister has just given will take high place in any competition.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Oh, I would not say so.


John George Diefenbaker: It was simply a refusal on his part to answer for a deliberate flouting of parliament, by the simple explanation that "I did it; I had a high purpose in mind, and I would do it again." I have no sympathy for any man who would in any way defraud his country. I join with him in his desire to be assured that if there were any unlawful disposal made of the products of Eldorado it should be traced. But I say at the same time that investigations, however desirable in the interests of justice, should be carried on in accordance with the principles which ages under British law have determined proper to assure that justice shall be attained. Otherwise, whenever the crown finds itself in a position where it desires to get evidence, all it will have to do will be to set up a court after the fashion of the Star Chamber, and then proceed, as apparently the minister tacitly admits he proceeded in this matter, regardless of what parliament or people think of it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Cargo vessels operated by Park Steamship Co. Ltd., $27,000,000.
['It was simply a refusal on his part to answer for a deliberate flouting of parliament, by the simple explanation that "I did it; I had a high purpose in mind, and I would do it again." I have no sympathy for any man who would in any way defraud his country. I join with him in his desire to be assured that if there were any unlawful disposal made of the products of Eldorado it should be traced. But I say at the same time that investigations, however desirable in the interests of justice, should be carried on in accordance with the principles which ages under British law have determined proper to assure that justice shall be attained. Otherwise, whenever the crown finds itself in a position where it desires to get evidence, all it will have to do will be to set up a court after the fashion of the Star Chamber, and then proceed, as apparently the minister tacitly admits he proceeded in this matter, regardless of what parliament or people think of it.']
Angus MacInnis: Since this is a going concern and there mav be an opportunity to deal with it more appropriately under the Department of Reconstruction, perhaps anything I have to say might be left over until then.


Clarence Decatur Howe: This is Munitions and Supply.


Angus MacInnis: I wonder then if the minister would give the committee some information as to how the Park Steamship company stands now. How many vessels were turned over to .this company in the first instance; how many of those have been sold since; what is the policy in regard to the remaining vessels; and any other matter on which he thinks the committee should have information?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The number of ships operated by Park Steamship company is 154, divided as follows: on the west coast, fifty-five, all of

_____________Demobilization-Munitions and Supply
which are 10.000-ton dry cargo vessels: east coast, ninety-nine, made up of twenty-six 4,70Q-ton dry cargo vessels, five 3,600-ton tankers, 12 10,000-ton tankers, and fifty-six 10,000-ton dry cargo vessels. In addition, the Departmept pf Munitions built another series of ships known as Fort vessels for the British government under lend-lease. They were returnable to Canada after the end of the war with Japan, after V-J day, and fourteen of them have been returned. We had no use for them here, and those fourteen were sold. They -were not fourteen of the 4.700-ton ships; they were from the Fort fleet, not from the Park fleet. We have, however, sold five of the 3,600-ton tankers. We could find no charterer for them. They were declared surplus to requirements and sold.


Mr. COCKERAM:: For how much?
Mr. HOWE; For $350,000 each.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: What was the cost of producing them ?	.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I cannot say. I shall be glad to give that information to the committee, or I can give it vyhen War Assets affairs are being discussed here. I have not the information. The sale of ships is a matter for War Assets. Have I answered the questions of the hon. member for Vancouver East?


Angus MacInnis: This, I understand, is a crown company.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.	.


Angus MacInnis: What is it intended to do in the days ahead? Is the crown company to be continued, or is it the intention to sell the ships if buyers can be found?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The present practice is that the ships are owned by a crown company and operated for government account by certain private operators. The contract is entered into with a private ship operator, under which he performs certain services in connection with the voyage and for which he is paid a fee. The results of the voyage are for government account. That worked very well in war time when the government provided practically all the cargo, but it is not workable in peace time when the finding of cargoes becomes a highly competitive matter. That was amply demonstrated after the last war when the government attempted to operate a much smaller fleet. An effort will be made to sell these ships for operation under the Canadian flag. An offer has been made to the operators at present operating the ships for the purchase by them of the ships, and later on I
shall be glad to give my hon. friend the particulars of that offer. It is on a par with the offer made by the United States government to the operators there and by the British government to British operators. As many ships will be sold to private Canadian operators as possible, and the probabilities are that, if we still have a surplus of ships, it may be necessary to tie them up.


Mr. PROBE:: May I ask the minister a number of questions dealing with the operation of Park Steamship Company Limited? In extension pf the questions asked in part by the member for Vancouver East (Mr. Maclnnis), these questions may be answered at a lafer date if he has not the information available now, but I have tabulated those that I should like to have answered. First, how many ships does the Park Steamship company own at the present time?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have just given that figure.


John Oliver Probe: The 154 represents the present holding? What is the present value? How many have been sold and to whom, at what price and at what fraction of the cost? Then, with respect to the operating profit, in spite of the rather involved manner in which the Park Steamship company has been operating, in which you have leased these vessels, or something of the sort, to private operators, I notice by the statement of the 1944 accounts that the net profit for the year ended March 31, 1944, of the Park Steamship company was $9,020,000 odd. What is the operating profit to March 31, 1945? The figure which is shown in the public accounts for the operation in 1944 of Park Steamship company represents a rather reasonable public enterprise effort in spite of its limitations, by subletting every possible feature of it. The minister expressed doubts that this group of vessels could be indefinitely operated by the government itself, and doubts as well that he might be able to sell or dispose of the vessels. What would be his reaction to turning this fleet into the Hudson bay route for use as an experimental fleet of vessels to carry traffic from Churchill to foreign markets and return cargoes, operating it as a government experiment pending the establishment of a private line, since the policy of the government is opposed to the handjing of transport as a government enterprise? Possibly he could answer that last question now and we could have the other answers tabled later.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I would be in favour of
using some of these ships on the Hudson bay route, but I would remind my hon. friend
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that it would be for two months of the year. What would he suggest doing with them in the other ten months?


John Oliver Probe: My information is that we can operate there for more than two months out of the year under any conditions, and possibly with a little government ingenuity, shall we sayj and with the provision of radar and icebreakers in that bay, we might be able to operate for ten months of the year. I do not think it has been established by anyone except the eastern shipping interests that Hudson bay is not a feasible route for more than two months of the year.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have been in Churchill in every month of the year except January, February and March. I have been there from April to December, and I can assure my hon. friend that if two months is not the limit, then certainly three is the maximum. You cannot get within miles of the place outside that limit.	.


John Oliver Probe: At the present time I believe we are not operating the port at all and1 even three months of the year, ninety days, would be an advance on what we are doing with the facilities there at the present time.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Will the minister repeat what he said this afternoon with reference to the $27 million? I believe he mentioned three 8,000-ton vessels. I did not catch the rest of what he said.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The amount in the estimates this time is required to comple'te three vessels of 8,500-ton capacity. They are diesel vessels of the type of the later United States ships.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Does that mean about $9 million each?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. The item we are discussing is an item of $3,619,942.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: What about the rest?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The $23 million odd is for finishing up the shipbuilding programme which ended on September 6. That is the amount spent up to August 31, 1945.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I began to figure it out; I asked someone who knew, and I thought that the whole $27 million could not apply to the three. But what programme does this $23 million finish up?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The amount of $23,380,000 was the actual expenditure from April 1, 1945 to August 31, 1945, and that includes finishing up a number of merchant ships built all the

way from Saint John, New Brunswick, to Victoria, British Columbia. The programme had been finished as of V-J day, except for three ships that were still under construction. These were three fast motor ships that were built at the wind-up of the merchant programme.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: When were they begun?


Clarence Decatur Howe: They were begun seven or eight months ago.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: When did you first sell ships? When were the first sales made?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Within the last month.


Mr. CASTLEDEN:: What vessels were completed in the $23,380,000 programme? Will he give the amount expended on the different vessels? This has all been done under the government-operated crown company, the Park Steamship company?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. It is done under Wartime Shipbuilding. The Park Steamship company is the operating company.


George Hugh Castleden: The whole item comes under cargo vessels operated by the Park Steamship company.


Mr. CHEVRIER:: Operated, not built.


George Hugh Castleden: Would the minister outline what vessels were completed and which ones have been finished since April 1 of this year?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Does the hon. member want the names of the ships?


George Hugh Castleden: The names and the amount spent bn each since April of this year.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It would not be very illuminating, because part of the expenditure would probably come before April 1. Does he want to get at the cost of the ships?


George Hugh Castleden: How was this amount expended since April 1? Can the minister give the tonnage of the vessels that have been completed, the number of vessels completed, the amount spent on each since April 1? That would give a picture of what is being done with the $23 million. That is what we are after.


Howard Charles Green: This item brings up two policies which are of vital importance to Canada: in the first place, the policy on merchant shipping, and, in the second place, on shipbuilding. They are, of course, of great interest to those who come from either the

Demobilization-Munitions and Supply
Atlantic coast or the Pacific, or from the St. Lawrence district, but in addition they are of the utmost importance to Canada as a whole.
We are a great exporting nation. AVe are always boasting about our exports, and at the same time we all admit that export trade is vital to prosperity in Canada; this trade has to be carried in ships of one kind or another.
During the war the government built merchant ships and each session we asked questions as to what they were to be used for after the war. I think it was pretty generally understood that Canada would try to carry her exported goods in her own bottoms. I hope that will be the policy followed, but I am somewhat disturbed by the minister's statement to-night. He said that Canada cow has 154 merchant vessels. In addition to that, there are a certain number of Fort class freighters. I do not believe the minister said how many of those we have.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think ninety-four of the
10,000	tons of the Fort series and fourteen of the 4,700 tons, the latter of which have now been sold.


Howard Charles Green: That would make a total
of 108?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: With the fourteen sold we
would have ninety-four 10,000 ton ships, and apparently these are all being operated now by the United Kingdom. I presume that eventually they are to come back to Canada.


Mr.   HOAVE@: Negotiations are under way
for a bare boat charter to the United Kingdom.


Mr GREEN:: In all likelihood they will
form part of the British merchant marine?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: That would leave Canada
with 154 ships. I presume there are no other freighters under the Canadian flag-


Clarence Decatur Howe: Oh, yes.


Howard Charles Green: -working in the export
trade.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Another million tons.


Howard Charles Green: That is, privately owned.
The minister said that an offer is now being made to sell these 154 ships to operators under the Canadian flag. I hope that he will be successful in that endeavour. Can he tell us whether it is intention to sell those ships to other countries if they cannot be 47696-143
sold to Canadians? If that is done the ships will no longer be in the Canadian merchant marine. I think the committee and the country are entitled to some assurance that Canada will have a merchant navy in peace time sufficiently large to carry the bulk of her export trade. AVe should also like some assurance concerning the faster freighters. The minister said that there are three diesel freighters being built. Are there any more, or is that the total number of our faster freighters? A year ago some of us suggested that faster freighters should be built; that in our construction we should not be confined to the slow boats. At that time the minister disagreed. He said that most of our exports were of bulk nature and did not require fast ships; that those slow ships would be good enough. There now seems to be a tendency to want the faster freighters.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think my hon. friend should be accurate. I said that we were tooled to make the standard 10,000 ton freighter; that a change would entail the loss of time in the shipyards, and that as long as the effort must be for more and more ships Canada could not afford to go into the faster ships.


Howard Charles Green: I have not Hansard here
covering that discussion, but my memory is fairly clear on that matter. I am quite certain that the minister went a good deal farther and justified the construction of nothing but 10.000 ton slow ships on the ground that they were the most suitable for the Canadian export trade.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I was not talking post-war; I was talking about the war period. I may say I have no regrets.


Howard Charles Green: I think the minister is
offering an alibi now, but we will not pursue it further. There was a press dispatch which appeared on October 25 under the heading: "Dominion to sell fifty Park ships." It is taken from the Vancouver Province which says:
Fifty or more 10,000-ton Park Steamships Limited freighters are reportedly on the 'block for prices as low as -a fifth of their original cost.
Then it goes on to say that the vessels cost $2,000,000 each to build in Canadian shipyards. If that report is correct it would mean that these ships would be sold for $400,000. The minister can correct me if that is wrong.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is very wrong.

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Howard Charles Green: What is the correct figure?


Clarence Decatur Howe: On the sale of a Park ship?


Howard Charles Green: Yes.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is a formula that has
been worked out for the Park ship and it is fairly standard in Canada and other countries. The Park ship that was built in 1944 cost about $1,300,000, or $1,400,000. It would be offered at about $600,000.


Howard Charles Green: Then the article goes on to
say:
There is indication that Park cargo ships sold in this deal wall be at least partly replaced with bigger, faster craft-fperhaps 15,000 tons-built in the United States.


Clarence Decatur Howe: What paper is my hon. friend quoting from?


Howard Charles Green: A good paper, the Vancouver Province. The Minister of Veterans Affairs will agree with me in that.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The pity about that paper
is that it writes its own dispatches.


Howard Charles Green: I should like to know whether or not there is any basis of fact for that statement?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Not the slightest.


Howard Charles Green: Can the minister assure us that the government policy on shipping will be such that Canada's merchant marine will be maintained at the strength that I mentioned earlier in my remarks?
Then we come to the question of shipbuilding. In each session in recent years there has also been discussion about shipbuilding. Now that the war is over, we face the problem on a peace-time basis. What is the government's policy? There have been very heavy lay-offs in shipbuilding. After the last war that industry died on the Pacific coast. We believe that it is a natural industry on our coast as well as on the St. Lawrence and on the Atlantic coast. We believe that the government policy should be devised to maintain shipbuilding in peace time and not let it fold up as it did twenty-five years ago. Various suggestions have been made; for example, some were made by the Shipyard General Workers' Federation of British Columbia about September of this year, and I think the same representations were made by unions from other parts of Canada. They suggest that long-term credit arrangements should be provided by the government to help shipyard operators who are anxious to accept shipbuilding orders from foreign gov-

ernments who are unable to make the cash payments for new ships. Then they suggest the enactment of legislation to discourage shipowners from having ship repair work and new ship construction performed abroad. They also suggest the restriction of the Canadian coastal trade to vessels now registered in Canada and ships being built in Canada. Members familiar with shipping will know that many of the nations, including the Unted States, have a similar provision. I believe that no ship can be engaged in the coastal trade of the United States unless it is built and registered in that country. Finally they suggest the establishment of a central government body for the control of Canadian shipbuilding and shipping policies which shall include representatives of all sections of the industiy, including labour. I take it that would be modeled on the United States maritime commission. I believe the minister said last year that some consideration wras being given to the establishment of a commission of that type. Could he give us some statement on these two matters, shipping and shipbuilding?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Of course, as far as shipping goes, it is impossible to operate more ships than one can obtain cargoes. My hon. friend suggests that we furnish shipping to take care of our exports. It is not so simple as that. Usually the buyer of the cargo determines the bottom that shall carry it. It w'ould be much simpler to provide shipping to take care of our imports, because the buyer can specify the earner of the cargo. However, we shall operate every ship, whether privately owned or publicly owned, for which cargoes can be found. If cargoes cannot be found the ship must be laid up. I think the United States have laid up something like twenty to twenty-five million tons already.


Howard Charles Green: They had a tremendous tonnage.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We, too, have a fair tonnage
in comparison. However, we are going to try to operate the ships. I have my doubts about the wisdom of changing our shipping laws at this time. We have built ships for Britain and Britain has built ships for Canada. At the moment we are building ships for sev.eral foreign governments. Whether this is the time to exclude the foreign built ships from our coastal trade I cannot say. There is only one country that does that, and it is the United States. When foreigp shipping is excluded from coastal trade, it involves a

Demobilization-Munitions and Supply
subsidy to the coastal trade. It is not a matter to be entered into lightly. However, the possibilities for our shipbuilding yards are good. I am satisfied that the more efficient yards will have a very good season next year. There is a good deal of tonnage being quoted on at the present time, and I know that other requirements are coming forward. The yard that cannot make a price will probably not be very active-but no government can do anything about that. There will be a good volume of shipbuilding for Canadian yards during 1946. I wonder if I have covered the subject.
So far as a maritime commission is concerned, may I say that the government is giving serious consideration to the establishment of a maritime commission. Legislation will be brought down in due course-not at this session. There again we might like to make sure that we have a personnel which will be qualified to administer problems which will have to be dealt, with.


Howard Charles Green: How would that maritime
commission operate?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Government policy in that
regard must be made known in due course.


Howard Charles Green: Last year the shipbuilders
submitted a brief for shipbuilding, and as a result a committee was set up some time in in the month of September of last year to review their proposals. We have never heard whether anything further was done by that committee. Has it been allowed to die out, or is the committee still working on the brief?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There was an interdepartmental committee of officials set up to study the situation. A report was made and it is receiving consideration by the government.


Howard Charles Green: Is the committee still
functioning?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think so, yes.


Howard Charles Green: A suggestion was made that people would be called in from the shipbuilding industry. WTas that ever done?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I fancy so; I am not sure. It was a duly constituted interdepartmental committee of high ranking officials of the government. The report was made. Just what methods the committee used in securing its information, I am not sure, but I rather think they heard those who were interested.
47696-143i


Alan Cockeram: What are the names of the private operators who operate Park Steamship Company Limited? Has the minister the names of the operators?


Clarence Decatur Howe: 
Alan Cockeram: Are those ships chartered to these companies?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, the companies are paid a fee for operating the ships for government account.


Howard Charles Green: Will there be any more ships built for Park Steamship Company Limited?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There are three being built at the [DOT] present time. I would not say that the government would not, nor would I say that it would. I believe Canadian government policy must be made known from time to time.


Howard Charles Green: The minister would not say?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is nothing in the
. estimates for more ships.


Howard Charles Green: Can the minister say whether there is any intention of building faster ships for Park Steamship Company Limited.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The last three are a series of faster ships.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: When the minister says that ships are being operated for government account, in consideration of a fee being paid, does he mean that the operators
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hire their own men? In other words, to all intents and' purposes they are their ships, except that the government pays a fee for operating the ships. They get the personnel, and operate the whole show.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is correct.


Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: I should like
to have further information regarding the smaller ships of 4,700 tons. They are of special interest to me, because they are the only ones which can be utilized in ports such as Pugwash, Yarmouth and many others. The 10,000-ton ships have a draught of about twenty-seven to twenty-eight feet, while the
4.700-	ton rfiips take about twenty to twenty-one feet. How many of the 4,700-ton cargo ships have been built and how many have been sold? How many of those ships are being operated by Park Steamship Company Limited? As I understand it, they are operated under the authority of Park Steamship Company Limited by Canadian steamship companies. Those companies will have the first privilege of purchasing those ships at established prices. I presume there will be a restriction on them when sold to the effect that they cannot be resold, but that they must be continued for operation under Canadian charter by these Canadian companies.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. There are forty of the
4.700-	tonners in existence. I believe there are actually forty^two built; two have been sunk. Those forty are made up of fourteen sent to the United Kingdom, and twenty-six in the Park fleet. The twenty-six in the Park fleet are being operated by Park Steamship Company Limited, and are operating under a Canadian flag.


Mr. ADAMSON:: Does this item include
any naval vessels, or does it refer purely to merchant vessels?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Merchant vessels.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Where does the termination of contracts for naval vessels come in? Does it come under the general item for termination of contracts?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Have importers of Canadian goods at this early date specified their own bottoms for transport, at a time of what was thought to 'be a shipping shortage? Have they already begun to specify their own bottoms? I wonder if they will accept any bottoms at the moment.


Clarence Decatur Howe: All shipping is in a pool
to-day. At the present time ships are allocated by the pool. No one has a say, except

the operators of the pool, as to what ships are used. The pooling arrangement will come to an end, on March 1, after which each operator will be on his own.


Agar Rodney Adamson: It seems to me that with such an amazing reduction in commissioned tonnage-in the United States I believe it has reached twenty-five million tons-in the very near future we shall be faced with a crucial decision as to what to do with these war-time ships which, simply because they were war-time ships, cannot possibly compete with the modern faster and more efficiently built ships.
Does the minister think there are Canadian yards competent to build ships to compete in ordinary peace-time commerce? As the minister knows, ships are getting more and more specialized, and a ship which might run from Canada to the West Indies would be an entirely different typei of ship from one which would run across the Atlantic. Then, a ship which might run to South America would be different from one running to the West Indies. Each ship is specialized, and built for a special trade. It is going to be a matter of definite competition. I was just wondering what the minister's view would be as to our ability to produce ships suitable to meet the competition we are likely to run into from European shipbuilding companies, such as the English and the Dutch, and those other people who eventually will get back into the shipbuilding business.
It seems a pity to lose the skills that we already have in our shipbuilding plants. Despite the fact that probably we shall not be able to compete in the next four or five years with the European builders, when they get back on their feet, it seems to me that some consideration might be given to keeping our shipbuilding industry, probably not intact, but certainly on a working level. The minister said that he thought he would have no worries until next year so far as the shipbuilding industry was concerned. I can- quite understand that, because no doubt ships will be required in Europe for at least eighteen months on account of the destruction that has occurred over there. Are steps being taken to maintain the Canadian shipbuilding industry? Will it have to carry on under government subsidy, or does the minister think it will be able to meet competition standing on its own feet? I know this matter is conjectural at the moment, but it is important to a number of our ports and a great number of the workers in this industry. I will not call it a new industry, because we had it during the last war, but it disappeared completely at the end * of that war.

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Clarence Decatur Howe: The government has given serious consideration to maintaining our shipyards, and we think we are all right for a year or eighteen months, perhaps longer. Next summer we shall have to look at the succeeding year and see what are the requirements. Our shipyards are fairly active. They have had no trouble in closing contracts at the moment. They are building ships for South American countries and for one or two European countries, and they are tendering for work for other European countries. I would say that at the moment we are competitive, but we. lack two things. We lack operators who have experience in the trades mentioned by my hon. friend, and we lack experienced designers. That is our great handicap in competing with yards in the United Kingdom where they have large staffs of experienced designers who can take an owner's requirements and work out a ship to suit him very quickly, and most likely sell him a ship. If we have a weakness, it is a weakness in design but we are taking steps to correct that to a certain extent; it cannot be wholly corrected. The government intends to give the shipbuilding industry all the help it can and to cooperate with the industry to put it on a permanent basis.


Howard Charles Green: Are the manning pools being maintained by the government?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The manning pools have
nothing to do with the operation of Park ships; they are to take care of the men while they are ashore and to help in ensuring sufficient men to man tihe ships. Whether they will continue to be a necessary or desirable adjunct to Canada's shipping I cannot say, but I think there is no intention at the moment to change the situation.


Howard Charles Green: Are there any plans under contemplation for the training of youngsters for a career in the merchant navy?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That would come under
another department. Transport operates the manning pool and the Minister of Labour trains the youth.


Mr. FERGUSON:: I was interested in the minister's remarks. In Collingwood, which is in my constituency, is a shipyard. On Sunday I attended a meeting of the union in that shipyard. Employment is down to about 400 from a peak of 1,200. I hope I shall be able to send these men copies of Hansard with the minister's answer, showing why he thinks the shipyards will be able to continue to work. Then these men may be able to stop drawing unemployment insurance as they are at the present time. It would be a good investment
for the government to employ designers from the old country so that our shipyard at Collingwood will not go down, as it did after the last war, to seven watchmen with 1,500 people on relief, in 1939. Certainly labour in Collingwood has no idea of the marvellous expectations of the Minister of Reconstruction, and I should like to have a reply to my question which I can send to these people who are thinking of their families.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think the operations post-war will be much more satisfactory than the operations prenwar.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: I hope the minister is ' correct in his assumption. A few minutes ago he said that he believed we would not have a recurrence of this condition. Would the minister mind putting on the record why he believes that?


George Hugh Castleden: The minister gave the formula for the disposal of ships built in 1944; ships that cost $1,300,000 or $1,400,000 have been disposed of for $600,000.


Clarence Decatur Howe: About that.


George Hugh Castleden: What would be the formula for ships built in 1945 and in 1943?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The difference is in the depreciation. The base price for a ship built in 1945 would be $625,000. I would be very glad to bring down the formula although it i3 rather complicated. It applies not only to the 10,000-ton ships but also to the 4,700-ton ships.


George Hugh Castleden: What would the price
amount to?


Clarence Decatur Howe: For a ship built in 1945, $625,000.


George Hugh Castleden: A ship costing how much?


Clarence Decatur Howe: They run between $1,300,000 and $1,400,000.


George Hugh Castleden: And a ship built in 1943?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There would be some depreciation; perhaps around $550,000.


Percy Chapman Black: Am I correct in understanding the minister to say that in the disposal of these ships the restriction is imposed that they must continue to be operated under the Canadian ensign?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is right.


Agar Rodney Adamson: A ship loses fifty per cent of its cost the first year, a further fifty per cent of that fifty - per cent the second year, and then it goes down on a logarithmic scale.
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Clarence Decatur Howe: No; we applied a certain depreciation for the war years. That is somewhat accelerated, because during the war years the ships do not receive the maintenance they ordinarily would receive. I think the depreciation during the war years is eight per cent, which dropped to six per cent after the end of the war. It is applied according to scale and I shall be glad to bring down that scale. Let us not think that too much sacrifice has been made in selling these ships, because we have collected substantial sums in freight. I think the operation of the ships has returned to the government something on the order of one hundred1 million dollars. When we are passing into a period of surplus tonnage and low freights, in marking down our ships to be consistent with that period we are not sacrificing as much as might appear.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I am amazed at the reduction in tonnage at a time when there is such a terrific world shortage of shipping and a world" shortage of goods. I suppose that most of these ships could not possibly be converted into troop ships because they are too slow, but when there is such a tremendous shortage of shipping and of all goods it seems amazing to me that there should be 25,000,000 tons tied up in the United States at the present time.
I should like to inquire about marine engines. I realize that the economic operation of a ship depends upon its design, but it also depends largely upon the efficiency of its engines. Are any of our shipyards able to produce modern marine engines, or do they produce merely the reciprocating engine suitable for the 10,000-ton ships which would travel in a six-knot or eight-knot convoy? Are we able to produce high-pressure or low-pressure turbines or modern diesel engines, or must we buy them from the United States and other countries?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Canada is equipped: to build almost anything. We built the turbines in the two Canadian destroyers that recently put to sea, and we are building the diesel engines that are going in these 8,500-ton ships.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: At Vancouver.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. Vancouver built quite a range of diesel engines and a great many of the tugs which have been built in this country; and Dominion Engineering have built diesel engines which have gone into fair-sized ships. I think that if you bring
TMr. Adamson.]
along orders for turbines, diesels or reciprocating engines of any type, our Canadian shops can supply them.


Angus MacInnis: The minister said that the policy of the government was to sell those ships so that they would remain under the Canadian flag. I have been wondering how that policy can be enforced. If the government sells one, two or half a dozen ships to a certain line operating under Canadian register, and that shipping company is not able to make the venture pay and should get an opportunity to sell the ships to some foreign company, would the government allow that sale, or would it be prepared to take the ships back and operate them itself, or would it take them back and just put them in dock somewhere and leave them idle?
I am satisfied that we are facing a tremendously difficult problem. We shall shortly have goods in tremendous quantities to sell abroad. At the present time our customers abroad have no means by which they can pay. If we are going to insist on having everything made here, it is quite clear that we cannot have customers abroad. They must have something to exchange with us for what we have. I think we might as well be realistic in this matter and recognize that trade works both ways, and that if we do not accept something, either services or goods, from the people to whom we intend to sell, eventually we cannot sell.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Of course that is a problem which is worrying everyone concerned with government in these days. As I said, the buyer usually dictates the ship which will bring the cargo he purchases. The British operated in the past by buying f.o.b. and selling c.i.f. In that way, of course, they controlled the bottoms both ways. But, ordinarily speaking, goods are shipped f.o.b.; that is, delivered at seaboard into a ship which the buyer specifies; and that, I think, is the kind of business which Canada must depend on. We can hardly dictate that no one shall buy our goods unless they are shipped in our own bottoms. However, I am not pessimistic about Canada's position in the shipping world. There has been a great tendency to disparage our ships. Our ships are good in their class. They are the most modem freighters of the 11 and 12-knot class that have been built anywhere, and we are building three ships of the 16-knot variety. Naturally, most of our cargo would travel in the slower ships: the 10 to 11-knot ships suit the wheat trade and the lumber trade

Demobilization-Munitions and Supply
and are suitable for carrying bulk cargoes of the type which makes up Canada's principal shipping.
A real effort will be made to keep all our ships busy. Under the present arrangement there is no great change as far as operation is concerned when the owners buy the ships; the owners operate them now in every particular, except that the profits or losses go to the dominion government and the owner is paid a fee. We are running into a surplus position where the government cannot guarantee freights, and the government would not be in a comfortable position in guaranteeing an operator a fee and taking the profit and the loss. We think the time has come when the operator should either buy the boat or lease it on a time charter. That is the only change contemplated.


Howard Charles Green: Are there any provisions for credit being given to buyers?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. I shall be glad to bring the terms to-morrow; I have not them at the moment.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Four ships have been built by Vickers, I think, for the Brazilian government or a Brazilian company. That was a private charter; I take it that the Department of Munitions and Supply had nothing to do with it?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We had nothing to do with that.


Agar Rodney Adamson: A private charter between the Vickers company and a Brazilian shipping line?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is not a charter; it is a building contract.


Agar Rodney Adamson: A contract to build the ships, yes.


Mr. ZAPLITNY:: The minister mentioned fees a couple of times. I should like to know on what basis these fees are worked out. Is it on a basis of tonnage or mileage, or is it on cost plus? On what basis are the fees paid to the private operators of these ships?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I will bring the schedule of fees. I have not it here to-day. It is a fee for the management of the ship. There is a certain scale .worked out. depending on the type of voyage and the nature and kind of ship. The management fee runs between $40,000 and $50,000 a year to the owner.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Do the management run the ship and pay the crew?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. They pay their agents in various ports, and their head office expense.


Mr. HAZEN:: Who fixed the rates which are charged for the carriage of freight by Park Steamship Company?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The freights are fixed by the united nations pool. The rates are published by the pool for various voyages.


Douglas King Hazen: The minister has told us that these ships have earned about $100 million while they have been in operation. Who paid the money that these ships earned? Did most of it or a great part of it come from the dominion government; or what part of it did come from the dominion government directly or indirectly?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I should have to break down every voyage to determine that. We delivered our goods at seaboard in practically all cases.
I think there are very, very few cases where the cost of shipping goods was a Canadian cost unless for goods destined for our own troops. Our ships, have been in all the seven seas, and every country has paid the freights.-


Alan Cockeram: What were the earnings of Park Steamship company in this period, and where shall we find an offsetting entry for the profit that the minister says was made on these operations? Is this in addition to the profit that has been made?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The profit has nothing to do with the cost of the ship. As my hon. friend knows, the profits are paid into the receiver general of Canada, and they will be found in the auditor general's report. The cost will be found in the auditor general's report as a cost of the war.


Howard Charles Green: Is the cost of freight included in Mutual Aid?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


William Ross Macdonald: Is the item carried?


Mr. LENNARD:: How can we decide to carry it if the minister is going to bring down information to-morrow on certain items? More questions may be asked if these answers are not satisfactory.


Alistair McLeod Stewart: This' afternoon I passed certain strictures on the Minister of Munitions and Supply; he informed me that they should have been allotted really to the Minister of Reconstruction. I do not want to make that mistake to-night. I want to discuss Wartime Housing Limited. Am I right in supposing that the minister is responsible for that, under this item?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is the next item.
2270	COMMONS
Demobilization-Munitions and Supply


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: We are told that Park Steamship company made $100 million. I assume that before making $100 million profit they must have set aside items, as any firm does, for depreciation. If these boats ran over a period of time the money which they would be able to retain before claiming a profit would be allocated under the heading of depreciation; it would be retained. I take it, as any ordinary company would do, in the company's coffers. If the company is owned by the government, would the depreciation money not be an offset against the cost of the boats before they ever declared $100 million profit? That is the way it is done with every private corporation. I should like to ask the minister if the company, being a government corporation, was run in that manner. In other words, these boats should not have cost the country any money because depreciation would be allowed before it was declared that we had made $100 million profit. Would the minister answer that, please?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have not used the word
"profit" to-night. I used the word "earnings", the amount taken in, less cost of the voyage. The earnings as received are paid to the receiver general of Canada. I did- not say they were profits. I suppose the profits will be known when the boat is sold and the recovery price is taken into account. I simply said earnings on voyages.
Mr. BLACK (Cumberland); Net earnings? Mr. HOWE: Yes.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: One hundred millions of gross earnings. We may have operated at a loss of one hundred million. Is that what the reply is? The gross earnings are a little over $100 million?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I said net earnings. .


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: Would you say net profit?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: WTat is the minister's
interpretation of earnings?	'


Clarence Decatur Howe: The earnings are the net recovered from the voyage. The boat starts from Halifax for the United Kingdom and returns to Halifax, and the earnings are the amounts of freight collected, less the amount of supplies, labour, fees and everything connected with the voyage. Those are . the earnings. I said accumulated earnings, not profits.	x


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: Accumulated earnings
after all costs have been taken out?


Clarence Decatur Howe: After all voyage costs.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: The government did not allow for depreciation out of earnings, or did they?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I simply said they -were
earnings.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: I should like to find
out if the government runs its business as any private corporation does. In the case of a private concern, before they say what they have made by way of earnings they deduct costs, including depreciation allowable by the government. If that is the case and they made $100 million, why not take out depreciation? You will find we can give these boats away because they cost us nothing.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The government's method of accounting is very simple. We get an appropriation for capital expenditure and any money that is earned goes back into another government account.	Every government
department is run that way. It is very simple. We do not talk about profits but about earnings, and that has always been the way.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: In the future I will
adopt that principle. You take the money and put it in some place where you lose it and do not account for it.


Alan Cockeram: Is there a balance sheet?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I believe the report is tabled. I shall be glad to get it.


Frank Exton Lennard: I asked whether, when
the information is brought down to-morrow by the minister, there may be further discussion if it is deemed necessary. Will that be allowed by the chair?


Alan Cockeram: The item stands.


The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Golding):: Many items that have been under discussion have been carried, and the next day the minister brings down information and answers questions that were asked. But the items are carried.


Frank Exton Lennard: That is what I wanted
to know.


Angus MacInnis: I wish to be clear on that point, because it seems to me that if we proceed on that basis there will be no finality.
I understood that the basis on which questions were asked before was that the minister would come here and answer questions as they were asked, but that once an item is carried it is certainly carried.

Demobilization-Munitions and Supply


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is correct.


Agar Rodney Adamson: May I ask one question about the building of ships, arising from the fact that the Canadian Pacific contracted for four new 10,000-ton Beaver ships, being built in England. The Canadian Pacific should know something about shipping. Was there any tender for those ships to be made in Canada?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. The reason the ships
were built in the United Kingdom is simple. The Beaver ships were British vessels built in the United Kingdom and operated under British register and were insured in the United Kingdom. The ships were sunk and the insurance was paid in sterling that was not convertible into Canadian dollars. It was paid in block sterling which had to be spent in that country, and it was logical for the Canadian Pacific to replace their ships where the insurance money was located.


@Acting Chair(man)? of Committees of the Whole: (Mr. Golding) : Do hon. members wish to have this item stand, or is it carried?


John Bracken: If the minister would
say that on questions he has not been able to answer to-night we may have some brief discussion when he does answer them, the items would be passed more readily.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That has been understood. Questions are answered and, if there is any comment, it can be made.


William Henry Golding: Is the item carried on that understanding?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Housing development, $30,900,000.
['Is the item carried on that understanding?']
Alistair McLeod Stewart: I
wish to talk about wartime housing for a few minutes. I do not like Wartime Housing Corporation or what it has done. It has been most dictatorial and dogmatic in its approach to the municipalities. I can speak with some authority in respect of one municipality and that is the city of Winnipeg. A tremendous storm gathered at the idea of these potential slums being built in Winnipeg and objections were made not only to the corporation but, I am informed, even to the minister; yet nothing came of them. These dwellings were put up, some in my constituency and some in other constituencies in the city of Winnipeg. By and large they are a waste of money. In the Elmwood district we are spending $300 thousand on wartime housing, and these homes, as I said, are potential slums. Men are coming
back from the war and they will go into these houses. They will not regard them as homes but merely as places of shelter which they will leave as rapidly as possible. There are no basements in these dwellings. Representations were made to the corporation that basements are needed in Winnipeg. We have been told by Wartime Housing that dwellings no longer have basements. There are none in the modern type of building, but I would point out that buildings of that type cost $10,000 and not $3,000. The fact that they have no ' basements is serious. In the first place, those who will occupy these houses will be young couples. They will have children, and usually babies play on the floor. The floors in these houses will be appreciably colder than the area two or three feet further up. Therefore the children will be subject to chills and colds and possibly pneumonia.
When we objected we were told that the specifications were the same all across Canada.
I wrote a letter on July 2 to the minister in which I said that the specifications in Winnipeg are not the same as for Moose Jaw, Saskatoon, and other areas, so that apparently there is no uniformity of design by Wartime Housing Limited. I received from the department the answer that "the statement that the houses being constructed in Winnipeg differ from those being built in Moose Jaw, Saskatoon and other points is not according to fact." In other words, they denied what I had stated. "I am assured by the officials of Wartime Housing," the letter said, "that they are exactly the same as those built in other municipalities in the west. The fact of the matter is that the houses are uniform, and the by-laws and regulations of the various municipalities differ widely. Wartime Housing units are being built to conform to a national building code, and the only deviation from the code is where we have had to substitute materials which are unobtainable or in short supply." I asked the department a question which was answered on page 607 of Hansard. It seems to me that there must be a good deal of confusion in the department in view, of the conflicting answers given. I suppose that the Minister of Reconstruction sometimes answers half a question and the Minister of Munitions the other half, because they do not tally. I asked the question:
Are building specifications for these houses the same in each of the cities mentioned?
The answer was a categorical and very short no. I should like to know what the situation is. I see no reason why basements

2272	COMMONS
Demobilization-Munitions and Supply
could not -have been built in these homes. The digging of the basements would not have used materials which were necessary or vital to the war effort. They could have been excavated by a couple of bull-dozers in a week, and the addition of basements would have given the occupants a sense of permanency which they will never have. We are told that these are only temporary structures. Well, it is a rather expensive undertaking if these are only temporary structures, for we are spending $30 million this year on such buildings. But the committee knows that there is nothing temporary about them. They are built and they will stay there. In the same area there w'ere homes built allegedly on a temporary basis after the last war and they are still there. They were built without basements, and the people have had to excavate basements for themselves in the course of the years. After the houses have been constructed it is ten times as difficult to dig a basement. Worse than that, the specifications call for insulation which is not at all like those of normal houses in Winnipeg. There are no doors on the cupboards, and that is a cheap and unnecessary sort of economy. There are wooden eavestroughs. Perhaps that may be necessary in time of war when metal and zinc were short, but I hope that wooden eavestroughs are not going to continue. There is no power wiring. The expenditure of another $30 per building would have put power wiring in these houses. When you have no power wiring you have this result. A woman would have seen this; most men would pass it up. In the summer time you have temperatures of eighty or ninety degrees in the shade. If you want hot water for a bath you have to put on the kitchen range or the stove; that is the only possible way you can get hot water in these houses. Because we are chiseling to the extent of $30 on power wiring, we are putting people to all sorts of inconvenience and discomfort.
What is more, these houses do not meet the specifications laid down by the by-laws of the city of Winnipeg and, heaven knows, they are not too strict as things are now. But wartime houses come nowhere near the by-laws. Objection has been taken to that fact, but we were told we have to get houses and the only way we can get them is to take this offer of Wartime Housing. The city council said: "We cannot argue; we have to take what we can get." For the expenditure of another twenty-five per cent these houses could have been made permanent structures. I think it is a very poor form of economy indeed to build such homes. As it is, I am certain that they

are going to descend into hovels and eventually into slums. The objection that has been riised to the houses in the particular areas in which they are built has been raised by working-class people who do not object to low-rental housing and who do not object to cheap dwellings. After all, their own boys and girls are going to settle in these homes. In this community as in other communities we find that through the years the people have been industrious and frugal. They have saved a little money; they have managed to establish an equity in Canada. They have bought their own homes. Now they find, cheek by jowl with houses which they have built, these wartime structures which everybody is convinced will not last. I know soldiers who have applied for them. They have done so for one purpose only, and that is to get shelter for themselves and their families, and then to get out of them just as fast as they can. They are houses in which the tenants are going to take no pride at all. When people take no pride in their homes we know what happens.
There is another point on which I should like an answer from the minister to-night. I brought it up before, but he was not here at that time; perhaps he missed it. Wartime Housing put out a long questionnaire. There are many questions on the form. There are two questions which are entirely unnecessary, and I should like to see them knocked out if it has not been done by now. One question is: "What is your nationality?" The other question is: "What is your religion?" The men wrho are getting these houses are the men who fought for Canada. They fought overseas as Canadians. They were not Jews or Gentiles, Catholics or Protestants, believers or unbelievers; they were Canadians, fighting for Canada. They died for Canada in the same way and were buried in a common grave, united at last in the common bond of death. I think it is atrocious that any government department should have the audacity to put these questions on any form such as that which Canadian soldiers have to answer. I only hope that the minister to-night will tell this committee that these two vicious and iniquitous questions will be knocked out of the questionnaire.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I should like to ask my hon. friend if he knows of any case where the information given was used to the detriment of the man who gave the information?


Alistair McLeod Stewart: I know of no case where the information was used to the detriment of any man. But why are these questions in there if they are not for a discriminatory purpose? I do not say they are.

Demobilization-Munitions
and Supply
Yet, if they are not for a discriminatory purpose, they are entirely unnecessary; they are redundant; they have nothing to do with the right of a soldier to get a home, surely.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It seems to me they are questions that a man answers very frequently. I know a great many blanks which a man fills in. To become a soldier I suppose he had to fill in that exact information.
Mr. STEWART. (Winnipeg North):	Why
should a soldier have to answer that? What has his religion to do with his right to have a home, or his nationality either?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No reason at all, but there are certain activities in connection with Wartime Housing where it is rather important to know that. For instance, it affectu the school accommodation and Wartime Housing does something in the way of assisting schools. Sometimes it has to supplement the separate schools and sometimes it has to supplement Protestant schools. It is well to know what the problem is to be. Wartime Housing also builds church accommodation.


James Arthur Ross: Community churches
and schools.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is a good idea to know
just what the needs of the tenants are. My hon. friend is denouncing Wartime Housing and all its works. I only wish he could convince, say, the people of his same political faith in his city who are hounding me continually for more and more. I deny absolutely that we are building an inferior house; I deny that we are building a temporary' house. I claim that we are getting better value for the money we are spending to-day than any other builder. We are the only agency today building houses which will range in rent 'from $22 a month to $31 a month. We can build basements, yes, but the only effect would be to raise the rent of the occupants from S6 to $7 a month. There is no agency that subsidizes such houses. We build them and rent them at an economic rent. We believe that there is a requirement in the field of $22 to $31 rents. If any man wants a. better house there is nothing to stop him from going and renting a better house at the price the better house would cost. We could very easily satisfy that need by building a different type of house, but we think that can be very well left to private interests. The man who can afford to pay a higher rent can perhaps make his own arrangement. We are dealing with houses that we regard as the minimum comfortable house at this time.
My hon. friend says that there is no pride in the tenants. I wish he could see some 47696-1441
of the developments in Canada. I wish he could see the one at Sea island in Vancouver, as beautiful a residential development as one could see. I should like him to see some at Windsor and Hamilton. I think he is talking without having explored the situation in any way whatever when he says there is no pride of possession, in the owners of these houses. The gardens around these houses are a treat. Our housing projects are well operated. We do not really stop at being landlords. We operate community halls for each group of' houses. We have a person whose duty it is to see that good conditions are maintained in each group of houses. It is his duty to see that something is done in the way of serial welfare. Certainly everything is done in the way of maintaining the houses. I have read speeches from people who know very little , about the houses. The surprising thing is that tenants, who should know a great deal about them, communicate with me very seldom. I never go to a city that has a group of wartime houses without dropping in on the development and dropping in at random on two or three of the tenants to ask them how conditions are, and I may say that the impression I have gained is quite different from the speech of my hon. friend who has been denouncing an institution that I think is beneficial under present circumstances.


Alistair McLeod Stewart: I shall not answer the minister's points just now, but I should like to know definitely from him whether he is going to keep these questions about nationality and religion in these forms?. I do not think the answer he gave was at all convincing. If the corporation wants to know what the conditions are with respect to the building of schools, then it must put the questionnaire before the entire community in which they are building these homes. I think these questions, are completely unnecessary, and I should like a definite answer from the minister.


Donald Methuen Fleming: There is some information I should like to obtain from the minister. The item we have before us contemplates a total expenditure for the year of $30,000,000 on housing development. In his statement this afternoon the minister indicated, if I understood his statement correctly, that this was to provide for 7,000 houses to be built. I have some questions on the 7,000 houses. If the information is not readily available I am quite agreeable to its being brought down to-morrow. I take it from the minister's last statement that he classifies the 7,000 houses as permanent?
2274	COMMONS
Demobilization-Munitions and Supply


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes; we never build anything else.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Then I shall put it in this way. How many of the 7,000 houses are being built with foundations and how [DOT]many without?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We have noted the question.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Out of the 130,000,000 there had been spent in the first five months of the fiscal year something less than $1,000,000. How many of these 7,000 houses have now been constructed? On how many has construction commenced but not yet been completed? Within what time will construction be completed? Do the 7,000 houses include those contemplated for veterans? If they do not include any being provided under the Veterans Land Act, how many of the
7,000	have been earmarked for occupation by veterans? I take it that information will not be available to-night.	.
The minister indicated this afternoon that the houses are to provide a need in the field of low-rent housing. To use his own words, "They are to hold the situation." I take it that he contends there is some lack in this field which would not otherwise be provided. In that regard I should like to ask this question. I think in the first place the committee would like to know what is the estim-. ated rent and in full detail how it is arrived at. In the second place, what is the cost of the sites? If any'of these are being provided by the municipalities concerned, are they being provided on the basis of donations, fixed taxes, or fixed assessments? Are there any subsidies involved, directly or indirectly, in arriving at the rent which is estimated?
What relationship have the 7.000 houses to those which are intended to be built by Housing Enterprises of Canada Limited? Much has been said about the efforts of this new housing company, formed under part II of the National Housing Act to provide houses. We have been told that already an attempt is being made to construct integrated housing in Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver. Does the figure of 7,000 houses estimated here bear any relationship at all to those houses?
. I have some further questions on the subject of building materials.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I wonder if the hon. member would ask his questions to-morrow. I had intended asking the committee to rise at this time so as to permit the transaction of other business before eleven o'clock.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I have not many more
questions. Perhaps if I put them on record now, it would save time to-morrow.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Would the hon. member
put them on quickly?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The next group of questions is on the subject of the requisitioning of materials.
First, what quantities of building materials are being requisitioned at the present time by Wartime Housing Limited, or by the government?
How long does the government contemplate that either it or Wartime Housing Limited will continue to requisition material?
Has any account been taken of the possible liability that private builders may be under for breach of contract-in consequence of materials on which they were depending being requisitioned by the government or by Wartime Housing Limited?
What quantities of building materials has Wartime Housing Limited1 or the government on hand at the present time?
What quantities of two-andk>ne-half inch nails are in storage in Toronto, in the hands of either the government or Wartime Housing Limited?
Does the government still expect that private builders in Canada will build 40,000 houses in the first year after victory?
What is the number of employees of Wartime Housing Limited? Is there any reduction of that number in prospect? Is there any accompanying reduction in the activities of Wartime Housing Limited in prospect in the near future?
Item stands.
Progress reported.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair.



[Stage Direction]
91. Departmental Administration, $170,499.
Item stands.

[Stage Direction]
8/t9. Departmental Administration, $434,101.
Item stands.

[Stage Direction]
398. Departmental Administration, $835,856.
Item stands.
Progress reported.
At eleven o'clock I he house adjourned without question put, pursuant to standing order.

Address of Right Hon. Mr. Attlee

[Stage Direction]
Prime Minister of the United Kingdom TO

[Stage Direction]
.	Monday, November 19, 1945
Mr. Attlee was welcomed by Right Hon. IV. L. Mackenzie King, Prime Minister of Canada, and thanked by the Hon. James H. King, Speaker of the Senate, and Hon. Gaspard Fauteux, Speaker of the House of Commons.
Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister of Canada):: Mr. Speaker of the Senate, Mr. Speaker of the House of Commons, honourable members of both Houses of Parliament: Canada is much honoured by the presence in our capital to-day of the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, the Right Hon. Clement R. Attlee. When in the course of my recent visit to England I learned from Mr. Attlee that he had accepted the invitation of the President of the United States, Mr. Truman, to visit him at Washington, I expressed to Mr. Attlee the hope that he might find it possible, before his return to Britain, to pay a visit also to Ottawa. I was delighted to receive an immediate acceptance of this invitation.
I mentioned to Mr. Attlee our hope that, while in Ottawa, he would be willing to address the members of both houses of parliament. This suggestion he assured me he would also be pleased to meet. Mr. Attlee is with us this afternoon in fulfilment of his promise. His address is to be broadcast to all parts of Canada and overseas.
I have already, on behalf of the Canadian people, extended to Mr. Attlee, as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, a very warm welcome to Canada. I should now like, on behalf of the parliament of Canada, to express to him the great pleasure it affords the members of both houses to have the honour of meeting him and of being addressed by him this afternoon.
Perhaps, before I call on Mr. Attlee to speak, he will permit me to say how pleased I am to be again with my fellow members of parliament, after an absence of seven weeks, and especially after the memorable visits I have just made to England and to the United States. \
I should like immediately to express to the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom my warm appreciation of the many courtesies extended to me my him and by other members of the British government during my sojourn in London. The exceptional opportunities afforded of conference with Mr. Attlee and his colleagues, as well as with members of the opposition and with others, enabled me to gain a much wider knowledge.of existing conditions in the United Kingdom and other parts of Europe, and of to-day's world problems. For Britain and for her people of Britain my visit has given me a greater admiration than ever. The courage and determination they displayed throughout the long years of war have never been surpassed. Their fortitude and endurance in seeking to-day to overcome the privations caused by the devastation of war and to meet situations resulting from its horrors, are equally heroic, and evoke feelings of the deepest sympathy and respect.
I should like also to say to the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom how much it meant to me, as Prime Minister of Canada, to share with him in the conferences with the President of the United States on the question of atomic energy and problems which-this discovery has presented to the world.
It is too soon to say more than a word of the agreement reached at Washington. I believe the initiative taken by the representatives of the three countries which possess the knowledge essential to the use of atomic energy to see that the new discovery shall be used for the benefit of mankind, and not as a means of destruction, should go far towards creating conditions of mutual trust which alone can rid the world of its worst fears, and secure for nations an enduring peace. I am more than ever convinced that in the continued

Address oj Right Hon. Mr. Attlee
close cooperation between nations of the British commonwealth and the United States, which meant so much to the preservation of the world's freedom at a time of war, will be found the surest guarantee of world security in these post-war years.
I need not remind hon. members of the many causes with which, over the years, Mr. Attlee's life has been identified, or how outstanding are the contributions he has made , to the public life of our day. He has always been an earnest student of social and industrial problems, imbued with an abiding determination to work increasingly for human welfare and social progress. As a soldier in the first great war he had a fine record of military service. He has been a member of the Labour party of Britain for nearly forty years, and its leader for more than ten years. Though still with the promise of many years before him, he has already lived to see fulfilment of some of the great purposes of his life.
Few men have had a comparable political career. Mr. Attlee has been a member of the parliament of the United Kingdom for twenty-three years. During that time he has held many high offices of state, which he administered witli rare ability and the utmost fidelity. As leader of the opposition at the greatest crisis of the war he joined in forming the coalition. During the period of the coalition he held after 1942 the office of Deputy Prime Minister. He combined this difficult position with the continued leadership of his party. He is to-day head of the administration and Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. This is a record of personal achievement, political success and public service which will ever hold an exceptionally high place in the history of British statesmanship.
It has fallen to the lot of few, if any, statesmen to be faced with as great problems as those by which Mr. Attlee is faced to-day. He carries, I believe, a greater burden of responsibility than the head of any other government in the world to-day. In the discharge of his grave responsibilities, I should like to assure the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of the understanding and cooperation of the government of Canada. I am speaking, I know, for all Canadians when I ask Mr. Attlee to take back to the people of Britain the renewed expression of our admiration and affection. With this expression of admiration and affection, I ask him also to carry back the assurance that the people of Canada are united in their resolve to do all they can to help Britain in meeting the pressing needs of her people. We fully -eaiize not only the magnitude of their sacri-

fice, but also our own country's interest in the welfare and prosperity of Britain, and indeed, in that of all nations.
I have much pleasure in calling upon the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, the Right Honourable Clement Attlee.
Right Hon. CLEMENT R. ATTLEE (Prime Minister of the United Kingdom): Mr.' Speaker, members of the Senate; Mr. Speaker, members of the House of Commons:
I should like first of all to say how deeply I was touched by the kind reception which you have given me. I should like to thank you, Mr. Prime Minister, for your kind words.
I take this as a tribute to the people of the United Kingdom whom I am representing to-day.
It is a great pleasure to me to be here in Ottawa again. It has been my privilege >to , visit Canada four times in the last five years, When I was last here I was Deputy Prime Minister in Mr. Churchill's government, a post which I held until a few months ago. Now, by a process well understood by all parliamentarians, there has been a change of administration and I come before you as Prime Minister. I say that this is well understood by all of us, but the methods that are natural to democracies are not always understood in other parts of the world.
You will remember that we had a general election in Britain, and I then accompanied Mr. Churchill to Potsdam while the ballot boxes remained locked-up and the votes from the men overseas were coming in. Some of our friends were surprised that immediately following a vigorous electoral contest Mr. Churchill and I could cooperate; some were even astonished that we showed no agitation while our political destinies remained hidden for three weeks. When we returned to London and the result of the ballot caused me to become Prime Minister, I went back to Potsdam with precisely the same civil servants as had accompanied Mr. Churchill. It was a striking example of how in countries where the rule of law obtains, we can effect change peaceably. It was also an illustration of the fact that political differences do not prevent cooperation between opponents where the interests of the country are at stake.
In London we have been delighted to welcome in recent years representatives of all your parties, including my friend Mr. Bracken the leader of the opposition, and Mr. Cold-well the leader of the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation; and only a week or two ago we had the pleasure of receiving your Prime Minister, Mr. Mackenzie King, on his third visit since the war began. As the junior

Address oj Right Hon. Mr. Attlee
prime minister in the commonwealth, it has been a pleasure to me to be with one who has had such a long and distinguished tenure of office.
He and I have come to you from the United States of America, where we have been in consultation with President Truman on a subject of vital consequence, not only to the people of our own countries but to the peoples of the whole world. I shall not venture on Mr. King's prerogatives by talking to you this afternoon about the problems which the discovery of the release of atomic energy has created. I have no doubt you will be debating these high matters in due course, but I know that the problem which has presented itself to all three of us, as only one part of the great question which confronts us all to-day, is: How can we secure peace? How can we prevent another devastating war from arising in a few years' time, a war even worse than those we have already experienced. You will have seen that in considering this question we stressed the paramount importance of making the United Nations Organization an effective instrument of world peace. Y7ou cannot deal with these matters by considering such a question as that of the atom bomb by itself. A very distinguished leader of my party, Mr. Sidney Webb, now Lord Passfield, once described the process of trying to deal with the particular results of general causes as that of hammering on the bulge. It was a simile taken from dealing with pots and pans; for in hammering on the bulge you merely caused the metal to raise itself in another place.
The particular problem of certain armaments must be considered in the. light of the general question of securing world peace. It is just here I believe, with all due humility, that the British commonwealth and Empire offers the world an example which should be noted and followed. The units which compose our British Commonwealth are equal. They are sovereign and independent states owing allegiance to the same king, freely cooperating for their mutual benefit, each one of them living its own life, having its own distinctive characteristics and, while avoiding slavish uniformity, being responsive to a larger unity. The bonds which unite this great company of nations are not material, but spiritual. The strands which compose them are the acceptance of the rule of law, a belief in and the practice of the principles of democracy and liberty, and the acknowledgment of a common standard of moral values. It is in my view precisely these spiritual ties which
must bind together all the nations of the world if we are to make the United Nations Organization a living entity, if we are to establish peace on sure foundations. The work done at San Francisco was valuable, but the designing and perfecting of a machine is of little value unless there is the power to make it move. It is only an intense belief in the great principles of the interdependence of nations and the brotherhood of man that will provide the motive power to this great machine which has been constructed.
I am certain that it was this unity in the British commonwealth, based on the common conception of the right relationship between human beings and between nations, tha't was responsible for the remarkable spontaneity with which at the threat to civilization the members of the British commonwealth of nations sprang to arms.
I urge each individual man and woman of every race, creed and language to understand the moral crisis that confronts the world.
(Translation):
Mr. Speaker, I recollect at this time the words of one of the great minds of France, Rabelais: "Conscienceless science is but the ruin of my soul".
Such is the problem that confronts mankind -to bring science and morality closer together.
In my opinion, it is obvious that if we do not approach those problems with a moral enthusiasm as great as that with which scientists carry out their research work, civilization, as it was developed throughout many centuries, will be destroyed.
(Text) :
Speaking to you here to-day after the close of this long struggle, I should like to pay my tribute to what Canada and the Canadian people have achieved. I recall so well the dark days of 1940, when our forces had to withdraw from Dunkirk and we were left with very scanty equipment to defend ourselves against invasion that then seemed imminent, and how heartened we were by the presence in ever-growing numbers of the Canadian forces. I know too what a strain it was for those gallant men to remain apparently inactive for many weary months although in fact their presence was vital to the whole strategy of the war. In 1942, there took place the Canadian action at Dieppe which played a vital part in the preparations for the later invasions. It enabled us to perfect our amphibious technique; it taught us how to conduct air battles in support of a landing, and it made us realize the need for bringing with us

Address o) Right Hon. Mr. Attlee
our own harbours. Thus the men of Dieppe showed the way to North Africa, to Sicily, to Italy and to Normandy.
When the time came for the Canadian armed forces to cross the seas, in every theatre of war they more than sustained the high reputation which they had won in the first world war on the fields of France and Flanders. I recall how they were the spearhead of the attack on Sicily and how they fought their way north in 1944 and early 1945 along the Adriatic and across the Appenines. It was my privilege then to visit, them in the front line. No less splendid were their feats in the invasion of Europe. Some of the hardest tasks were given to them: the clearing of the Channel ports, of the Dutch coast, and the opening of the port of Antwerp. And since the defeat of Germany, Canadian troops have been playing their part in the vital task of disarming the Germans and occupying their country. This task and similar tasks in Japan will make great demands on the resources of the commonwealth and of the allies, but it is one of the tasks which must be done fully and well if we are not to throw away the rewards of victory.
The whole world knows the achievements of the Royal Canadian Air Force, whose units played a distinguished part in every phase of our warfare, in every command of the United Kingdom, and in every overseas theatre. They were second to none in their gallantry and in their skill. Perhaps their biggest single achievement was the provision of an entire group, the famous No. 6 Group of Bomber Command. Let us remember that behind the whole air effort of the British commonwealth lay that great empire air training scheme under which roughly one-third of the British, dominion and allied air crews were trained in this country. Perhaps it is not so generally known that the Dominion of Canada played a major part in the development of radar, and provided the R.A.F. with its main source of highly skilled mechanics and technicians. Finally, let me say that one of the .most notable achievements of the war was the development from small beginnings of a great Canadian navy. In all the strain of the long-continued battle of the Atlantic, Canadians took their full share with their British and American comrades.
Besides all this, just as in the old country, the workers in the fields, the factories and the shipyards, the scientists, the technicians and research worker, are entitled to a full share of credit for the successful outcome of the war. I should like here to refer particularly to the vast and generous financial contribution of Canada, to the food supply sent across the Atlantic, and to the whole

system of mutual aid. Canada has had not only firm leadership of her fighting forces, by sea, on land and in the air, but also at home by a far-seeing and wise parliament and government, who understood just what was needed for the common effort. Eveiy-one who realizes fully what Canada did throughout the war must acknowledge that there was a major contribution to the common cause.
You now, like ourselves, are facing the problems of peace. I count it a happy event that on the occasion of the first visit which I have made overseas since the end of the Potsdam conference, I should have had the comradeship of your Prime Minister in visiting our great friend and ally, the United States of America. It seems to me to be a good augury for the future in which the problems of peace will need that same cooperation * which brought us to final and complete victory.
I remember very well when I was over here in 1941, discussing with members of your cabinet the problems of mobilizing manpower and woman-power in both our countries for total war. We now are both engaged in the equally difficult task of demobilization and of the turning from war to peace of our whole economic machine. I have no doubt that your difficulties are very present to your minds, but it might not be out of place for me to tell you something of ours. I suppose that in no country engaged in the war was a greater degree of austerity imposed upon the people than in the United Kingdom. I need not tell you that our food situation is still very difficult and that our rations are on a scale only barely sufficient to maintain health. Coal too is in short supply. But this is not all. During the war we have been unable to replenish our ordinary stores of domestic requirements-sheets, blankets, curtains, pots, pans and crockeiy. We have had, as it were, in every phase of our life, to make do and mend, with the inevitable consequence that we find ourselves to-day faced with every kind of shortage. If you go round our shops you will find that many of the ordinary wants of the housewife are simply not there. We are still rationed very tightly for clothing and shoes. The men and women who come out of the fighting services and want to marry and set up a home will find the greatest difficulty in furnishing it; for example; we are endeavouring to provide utility furniture, but it takes a long time to get the industrial machine under way. And let me add that those who want to marry and settle down have an anxiety even more pressing than that of how to furnish a home-that of finding a home to live in. It is perhaps not generally

Address of Right Hon. Mr. Attlee
realized that three and a half million houses were to a greater or lesser extent damaged in the blitz, and of these a great number were entirely destroyed. My own constituency of Limehouse in East London was formerly a dense mass of working-class houses with hardly any open space at all. But at the recent general election my constituents walked through the fields to vote for me-fields strewn with rubble, beginning to be covered by the weeds that had grown up in the spaces created by German bombs. It will take years to catch up with the housing shortage. It will take a long time to get our industries fully at work, and even then we shall not be able to devote all our energies to our domestic needs. We have the problem of paying for our food and raw materials. For that purpose it is essential that as soon as possible we should build up our export trade. We shall not have in the future those invisible exports on which we used to depend before the war. Those resources built up by past prosperity were used up in the grim time when the British commonwealth and empire stood alone in the field against the barbarians and in the years which followed.
You may think I am painting you a somewhat dark picture. I do not minimize to you or to our own people our difficulties, but I should like you to know also the spirit in which we are tackling them. I was talking the other day to a distinguished American editor who had been visiting Britain, and he said to me that the thing that struck him most was the spirit of energy in our country. It recalls to me what Emerson said a hundred years ago about Britain:
So ... I feel in regard to this aged England . . . pressed upon by transitions of trade and . . . competing populations. I see her not dispirited, not weak, but well remembering that she has seen dark days before; indeed, with a kind of instinct that she sees a little better in a cloudy day, and that, in a storm of battle and calamity, she has a secret vigour and a pulse like a cannon.
I believe that that is true to-day. We have a new parliament, very largely made up of young men and women, a big proportion of whom are drawn from the fighting forces. I believe that this parliament, with its youthful energy, drive and idealism, and its readiness to embark on new experiments, fitly represents the spirit of our old country. At the general election the electors returned to power a party which believes in a planned economy, which believes in developing to the full the resources of our country in the interests of all the people, which believes that every individual in the community should be given a fair share of the good things of this world in return for a fair contribution of
effort. We are therefore embarking on new policies. We are putting forward complete schemes for social security designed to remove from the homes of our people the fear of want; but we know well that our ability to provide this economic security will depend on the degree to which we are able to apply the skill of our our workers, of our scientists and managers, to our natural resources. That is why we are seeking to reorganize our basic industries, such as coal, as services owned and controlled in the interests of the nation. We cannot afford to waste our resources. We cannot afford inefficiency. We are seeking to direct capital into those channels where it will fertilize trade and industry in the interest of the wliole community. We have an agricultural policy designed to see that the workers on the land get a fair return- in price for their efforts, and that the food of the people shall be obtainable at a reasonable cost. We shall of course always have to import a large amount of our food supplies from abroad, but we believe that prosperous agriculture at home is compatible with that exchange of food and raw materials from overseas in return for our manufactured goods which has for so long been the basis of our inter-commonwealth trade. Therefore while we follow no exclusive policy, we believe that in the future, as in the past, the general well-being of the countries of the commonwealth will be enhanced by their economies being complementary. In saying this I do not lose sight of the fact that Canada, perhaps to an even greater extent than other countries in the commonwealth, has become during the war an important manufacturing nation, and that it will expect to see in post war years an increasing export of its own manufactured products. But past experience has shown that the greatest volume of trade has been built up between highly industrialized countries, and I see no reason therefore to think that the development to which I have referred will place any obstacle in the way of a steady and increasing trade between our two countries.
We of the Labour party believe in an expansionist economy; we affirm that if we all act wisely we shall never again, see as we did in 1931, the tragedy of starvation and want in the midst of abundance. We hold that it is of vital importance that there should be a steadily increasing standard of life for the masses of the people throughout the world.
In particular, we believe it to be essential that the producers of primary products all the world over shall be assured of a fair reward for their labours and should not -be at the mercy of the vagaries of uncontrolled prices.

Address oj Right Hon. Mr. Attlee
We have emerged triumphant from the greatest crisis that ever faced the free peoples of the world. It is for us to see that that victory is not nullified by the failure to deal effectively with the problems of the peace. We owe it to the valiant dead that they shall not have died in vain. I know well how in all our countries there is weariness after these six years of war; but we must not let it overcome us. There may be here and there some cynicism; we must meet it by redoubling our faith and hope. I sometimes hear talk of new nations and old nations. It has been suggested that we in Europe are old and effete. Do not believe it. You are the new shoot from the old stem; but the old stem is still alive and full of vigour. You in Canada draw your spiritual resources from two great nations. In the past these nations in turn have derived their sustenance from the great heritage bequeathed by our ancestors, and they will do so again in the future. I can see that you here in Canada are pulsating with life and vigour. You have a great part to play in the world, and I am certain that in peace as in war, you will take your full share in bearing the burdens of the world.
Twice in my lifetime the aggressor has presumed to think that Britain was feeble and effete. Twice has he learned his error. Despite all our difficulties we face the future undismayed. We shall go forward into this new world^-a world, it is true, of danger, but a world of great opportunity-strong in the faith expressed so clearly by Robert Burns:
It's coming yet for a' that
That man to man, the world o'er, Shall brothers be for a' that.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I would ask the Hon. Doctor King, Speaker of the Senate, and the Hon. Mr. Fauteux, Speaker of the House of Commons, to thank Mr. Attlee for the eloquent and inspiring address he has just delivered to members of both houses of parliament.
Hon. JAMES H. KING (Speaker of the Senate):	Mr. Prime Minister, honourable
members of the Senate and the House of Commons:	It is my privilege to express,
more particularly on behalf of the Senate, a word of thanks to our distinguished guest. Mr. Attlee, the Prime Minister of Great Britain, is no stranger to Canada, but as this is the first opportunity we have had to offer our congratulations and good wishes since he was chosen to fill the highest office in the gift of the British people, this we do most heartily.
We are grateful to him for finding time, in the midst of all the overwhelming problems

with which his government is faced, to visit our capital, and to address the members of our houses of parliament.
We recognize what his visit signifies in the growing importance of the mutual relations existing between Great Britain and Canada; and we are proud, too, that Mr. Attlee's first visit to the United States, as Prime Minister of Great Britain, should have: been in company with the Prime Minister of Canada. The Canadian people are unanimous in their realization that the highest external interest of our country is the maintenance- and strengthening of the common bonds between the nations of our commonwealth and the United States of America.
We thank Mr. Attlee for his generous and understanding words to-day, and should like to assure him that the Canadian people are hopeful and desirous of continuing that spirit of unity and cooperation among the nations of the commonwealth which exemplifies to the world that such cooperation is possible; and in it lies the road to peace and security..
Sir, we wish you godspeed and safe return to Great Britain.


Hon. GASPARD FAUTEUX (Speaker of the House of Commons):: Mr. Attlee, honourable members of the Senate and1 of the House of Commons; It is indeed a great honour and privilege to e-xtend on behalf of the House of Commons to the Right Honourable Mr. Attlee our most sincere thanks for'having accepted the invitation to address the Parliament of Canada, and for speaking in such generous terms of our country and its people.
I w'ould not dare, as it would- be superfluous, to utter any remarks in reply to the views which have been expressed to this parliament by the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom; moreover, if this were a regular sitting of the house, I should not have the right to do so, since our standing order No. 10 says: "Mr. Speaker shall not take part in any debate before the house."
May I be permitted, however, to say to the Right Honourable Prime Minister that it will be indeed- a great pleasure for the Speaker, when an hon. member of the house moves, during our regular sitting, that the address of the Right Honourable Clement R. Attlee, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, delivered: before the members of the Senate and of the House of Commons in the chamber of the House of Commons, on Monday, November 19, 1945, be- included in the House of Commons Debates and form part of the permanent records of this parliament. I must assure you, sir, that the hon. member
NOVEMBER 19, i945
The Prime Minister
who will move this motion will not be called to order by the Speaker; and after the motion will have been put, I shall indeed be very happy, acting as the voice of the House of Commons, to say, without hesitation; Carried. (Translation):
Mr. Attlee, while very heavy responsibilities and duties are devolved on the Speaker of the House of Commons, he also enjoys privileges that are most delightful, as is the case this afternoon, I am pleased indeed to avail myself of this opportunity to offer you in my mother tongue the heartiest welcome on behalf of the French-Canadian group and to thank you most sincerely for having accepted, on the invitation of the Prime Minister, to address a joint sitting of the two houses of the Canadian parliament.
I wish to assure you that my French-Canadian fellow-citizens are glad of your visit, for they have not forgotten the heroic stand of your country in the war that has just ended and they are grateful to Great Britain and her people who have to a great extent been reponsible for the united nations' victory. They also recall the outstanding part you have played in those difficult years, alongside the former prime minister of Great Britain, Right Honourable Winston Churchill, in the administration of your country.
Let me add that if we in Canada have always put our confidence in the courage and valour of the British people in the darkest days, we look no less confidently to your great country for the maintenance of the unity7 and the cooperation among united nations which have brought victory to us, and which will ensure us for the future a lasting peace wherein we may find the guarantee of a better world.
The proceedings were concluded by the singing of God Save the King.
Tuesday, November 20, 1045.