1945-10-24

[Stage Direction]
On the order for motions:
Hon. IAN A. MACKENZIE (Minister of Veterans Affairs): I wonder if I might have the consent of the house to reply to a question asked yesterday by the hon. member for Peterborough West (Mr. Fraser), since we will not reach the orders of the day to-day.
Defence Projects
[Stage Direction]
The department will admit patients to the Peterborough hospital on Friday, the 26th instant. The hospital is of 250 bed capacity and will be used exclusively for the care of cases suffering from tuberculosis. Admissions to this hospital will be confined as far as possible to those suffering from pleurisy -with effusion and minimal involvement of the lung. The more advanced cases, and those requiring surgical interference, will continue to be hospitalized in provincial sanatoria.
The arrangements for the operation of this institution have been made in consultation with the provincial health authorities. The hospital is fully equipped with laboratory, X-ray and operating room facilities. No arrangements have been made for any official opening, but if my hon. friend and his good friend the senator from that district would care to visit the institution officially I shall be glad to cooperate with them as far as the department is concerned.


[Stage Direction]
On the order for motions:
Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Acting Secretary of State for External Affairs): I should like to make a statement to the house with regard to the future of a nurriber of defence projects which were built in northwestern Canada during the war. The record of Canada and the United States in developing communications throughout the northwest during the war is one in which both countries can take justifiable pride. Starting from rudimentary beginnings a series of important defence projects was created which it is hoped will greatly influence the development of northwestern Canada. The major part of the construction work was undertaken by the' United States, since they were able to make resources and men available at a time when the Canadian war effort was being concentrated overseas. Apart from the Alaska highway, however, Canada assumed the cost of construction of everything deemed to be of permanent value, so that the combined result represents a sound and logical programme of cooperation between Canada and the United States.
I do not propose to go into a detailed history of these defence projects, which are a matter of public record of the last five years. Rather I would mention the outstanding results which are inherited, as it were, as a by-production of the joint defence efforts during the war years. A chain of airfields stretches from Edmonton to Alaska. Connecting these fields there is the Alaska highway. To supplement
[Mr. Mackenzie.}
these communications by road and air there is a land-line system comprising telephone, telegraph, and teletype facilities extending along the length of the highway. Other supplementary facilities were developed as needed.
The United States army has been responsible for maintaining the highway and operating the land-line communications system. ' The airfields on what is known as the northwest staging route are under the control of the R.C.A.F., but many facilities are operated by the United States military authorities. With the war'over, the United States government is anxious to withdraw from the responsibility which if assumed in northwestern Canada, and wre must determine what use shall be made of these joint defence projects. Two sets of considerations must be borne in mind: future defence needs and current civil uses. With respect to the first category, it may be some time before we can- reach definite conclusions; there are many factors to be taken into account. As regards civil uses, we must estimate what is best adapted to assist in the development of the country. The two aspects cannot be separated, and each-must affect the other.
With respect to our international obligations we are free to follow whatever course seems to us best. The agreement with the United States on the Alaska highway provides that at the conclusion of the war that part of the highway which lies in Canada shall become in all respects an integral part of the Canadian highway system, subject to the understanding that there shall at no time be imposed any discriminatory conditions in relation to the use of the road as between Canadian and United States civilian traffic. We have repaid the United States the costs of construction for the airfields and the land-line system, so that there is no question that the decision as to their future rests with the Canadian government.
Having in mind problems both of defence and of civil use, the government has decided upon the following course. With regard to the airfields on the northwest staging route, the R.C.A.F. will assume responsibility for United States facilities upon the withdrawal of the United States military authorities. The question of eventual civil control is one which will have to be carefully studied in the light of future developments. For the time being, however, it has been decided to place the responsibility on the R.C.A.F., who already control the fields and can take over from the United, States more readily and efficiently than any other agency.
The United States government has been informed that it is agreeable to the Canadian

Allied Control Council
government that the United States withdraw from the operation of the land-line system from Edmonton to the Alaska border on June 1, 1946. On that date responsibility for the system will be assumed by the Department of National Defence for Air. Whether an adequate system of radio communications can with advantage be substituted for the present system of land lines is a question that is being actively explored by the departments concerned. In the meantime, however, there is need for continued use of the land lines, and the R.C.A.F. is better situated than any other agency in the matter of personnel trained in this technical field.
The United States government has been informed that it is agreeable to the Canadian government that the United States withdraw from the Alaska highway on April 1, 1946. The Canadian army will assume responsibility, for maintenance on that date. Again, as in the ease of the airfields, the matter of eventual civil control is one for careful consideration in the light of developments. For the immediate future it is believed that the most suitable initial step is for the Canadian army to take over from the United States army and to continue maintaining the highway as a military road.
These provisional arrangements under which the army and the R.C.A.F. will cooperate closely should provide adequate means for continuing collaboration with the United States and at the same time for assisting in the future development of northwestern Canada. On both counts we should strive to make the wispst use of the facilities which were provided for military purposes during the war. Until the future is clearer it would be unwise to decide on rigid and unchangeable policies, but the steps which I have outlined will, in the opinion of the government, provide satisfactory arrangements for the immediate future and can be altered when necessary in the light of future development.
Mr. COLD  WELL@: I should like to ask the Minister of Justice a question arising out of his statement regarding the arrangements in northwestern Canada. I understand this road will be maintained by the army. Will facilities be provided for tourists who wish to pass along the highway, and will the government give some consideration to the type of accommodation? Sometimes there are complaints from the United States tourists about the type of accommodation offered in Canada. It seems to me it would be well if the government, through its own bureaux, gave some consideration to the problem, and to the possibilities of a condition under which considerable revenue may be brought to Canada.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: With respect to the first part of the question, nothing has yet been determined as to what tourist use may be made of the highway, beyond the fact that it is agreeable to the Canadian government that the United States army withdraw on April 1, and it has been decided that the most effective and expeditious method to facilitate that would be for the Canadian army to take over. For the time being we have not gone beyond that. However, consideration will certainly be given to the best possible use, in the interests of the development of the country, of the facilities which have thus been provided during the war.


Mr. POULIOT:: Now it is a bush line for tourists.


Mr. LOW:: Does the minister know whether the slides-rather bad ones, I believe they were-which occurred at various points on the highway, have been cleared?


Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: The one in Nova Scotia, do you mean?


Solon Earl Low: I was not referring to that one, but rather to two or three bad slides which did occur on the highway at different places, and which almost stopped traffic. Have they been cleared?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I cannot give specific information to the hon. member about the clearing of slides, but the information we have, and which was provided us when the matter was under consideration, is that the highway is at this moment in excellent condition.



ALLIED CONTROL COUNCIL


[Stage Direction]
Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Acting Secretary of State for External Affairs):	Mr. Speaker, I think I should at this time announce to the house that a small Canadian military mission to the allied control council in Berlin is being sent to Germany for the purpose of protecting Canadian interests in Germany in civil as in military matters.
On June 5, 1945, the governments of the United Kingdom, the United States of America, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and the provisional government of France issued a statement on the subject of the control machinery set up by these governments in Germany, which included a provision to the effect that liaison with the other united nations governments chiefly interested would be established through the appointment by
[Stage Direction]
Judges Act
such governments of military missions (which might include civilian members) to the allied control council. The Canadian government has now received and accepted an invitation to send such a mission to Germany.
Major General Maurice Pope, C.B., M.C., has been named head of the Canadian mission with the acting rank of Lieutenant-General. General Pope, as hon. members know, has for some time been military staff officer to the Prime Minister. He is to be assisted by an appropriate staff, including representatives of the Department of External Affairs and other civil departments concerned. General Pope has left for the United Kingdom, where he will consult with Canadian military authorities before proceeding to Germany.


[Stage Direction]
Mr. T. L. CHURCH (Broadview) moved for leave to introduce bill No. 22, to amend the Judges Act.	'
Some hon. MEMBERS:: Explain.


Mr. CHURCH:: Mr. Speaker, there are two sections in the proposed bill which amend what is commonly known as the Judges Act. chapter 105 of the revised statutes of Canada. The first section deals with judges who are appointed by the federal power, who do provincial work, and some of whom are away from their judicial duties for a year or less, while some are away only for a short time. Section 1 of the bill proposes that judges shall not act on these commissions. The frequency, of recent years, with which judges are drafted for all kinds of such work impairs the efficient administration of justice and causes congestion in the law courts and, as they are largely only fact-finding commissions when appointed, they duplicate the efficient powers and functions of parliament, of the committees thereof, and of the many outside boards of recent innovation in war work, and furthermore they are a costly adjunct to good parliamentary government of the people, by the people and for the people, cause delays and interfere with parliament's right to immediate solution of social and economic problems of urgency to good government; thus a system of "judicial commission government" is slowly being built up in Canada.

The second section provides that judges are to be bound by the decisions of the court of final appeal. The legal maxim or doctrine known as stare decisis is adopted in this amendment. This bill will be law for all Canada, notwithstanding the provisions of any law, statute, usage, custom, or doctrine of law to the contrary. The doctrine stare decisis may be stated as follows:	decided cases
which lay down a rule of law are authoritative and must be followed. Also, decisions of the judicial committee of the privy council are binding on all Canadian courts.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.	*



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
' (Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. McCULLOUGH (Assiniboia):: Who are the personnel of the depreciation committee set up in the Department of Reconstruction?


Mr. McILRAITH:: Chairman, V. W. Scully, Deputy Minister; member, J. G. Godsoe, Coordinator of Controls; member, Dr. W. A. Mackintosh, Director General, Economic Research; member, Crawford Gordon, Director General, Industrial Conversion; Secretary, J. S. Benning.


RADIO BROADCASTING-LICENCES
Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: 1.	How many applications have been, (a) made to, and (b) granted by, the radio commission for the issue of radio licences in each of the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia, during the last two years?
2.	Who were the applicants in each case?
3.	In what cases are the decisions respecting the issue of licences being held in abeyance, and for what reasons?


George James McIlraith: Licences are issued, in accordance with the provisions of the Radio Act 1938, by the Department of Transport under the authority of the Minister of Reconstruction by virtue of P.C. 8207 of October 24, 1944, and on the recommendation of the board of governors of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation acting under the provisions of Section 24 (1) of the Canadian Broadcasting Act 1936.	*

Questions
Date-Name of Applicant-Location-Action Taken
The information requested is as follows:
Applications for Private Commercial Broadcasting Licence in the Standard Band
From October, 1943 to October, 1945 Manitoba
8/11/43, Mayor Geo. C. MacLean, St. Boniface, Man., not recommended by C.B.C.
19/2/44, Radio-St. Boniface, Inc., St. Boniface, Man., authorized.
17/3/45, F/O Blick and S/L Osier, Winnipeg, Man., authorized.
Saskatchewan
19/2/44, Radio-Prince Albert, Inc., Prince Albert, Sask.
19/2/44, Radio-Gravelbourg, Inc., Gravel-bourg, Sask.
These two applications and that of Radio-Edmonton were recommended by C.B.C. "for deferment for further consideration after the establishing and equipping of the station at St. Boniface, Man., has been definitely assured and provided for to the satisfaction of the Board."
22/3/44, Herald Printing Co. Ltd., Prince Albert, Sask., not recommended by C.B.C.
24/1/45, Bruce M. Pirie, Saskatoon, Sask., not recommended by C.B.C.
18/4/45, Robert Hatton, Saskatoon, Sask., not recommended by C.B.C.
21/6/45, F. J. Sweeney, Regina, Sask., not recommended by C.B.C.
Alberta
19/2/44, Radio-Edmonton, Inc., Edmonton, Alta., see remark under Radio-Prince Albert and Radio-Gravelbourg above.
13/11/44, J. Harlan Yuill, Medicine Hat, Alta., authorized.
19/1/45, Robert H. Straker, Red Deer, Alta., not recommended by C.B.C.
9/6/45, Rev. T. L. Thompson, Medicine Hat, Alta., not recomemnded by C.B.C.
British Columbia
29/5/44, CKOV, Kelowna, B.C., Penticton, B.C., authorized.
10/8/44, Miss Wilna Moore, Dawson Creek, B.C., authorized.
12/8/44, Frank H. Elphicke, Prince George, B.C., authorized.
21/6/44, Standard Broadcast System Co., Vancouver, B.C., not recommended by C.B.C.
17/7/44, Frank A. Thompson, Dawson Creek, B.C., not recommended by C.B.C.
47696-92J
21/7/44, Interior Enterprises Ltd., Kamloops, B.C., not recommended by C.B.C.
12/7/44, P. O. Jorgenson, Vancouver, Nanaimo, B.C., not recommended by C.B.C.
3/10/44, O'Brien Gourlay Ltd., Vancouver, B.C., not recommended by C.B.C.
30/12/44, H. E. Warren, Port Alberni, B.C., authorized.
2/1/45, S. E. Raymer, North Vancouver, B.C., not recommended by C.B.C.
2/2/45, A1 Harvey Alsgard, Powell River, B.C., authorized.
18/4/45, Robert Hatton, Vancouver, B.C., not recommended by C.B.C.
22/5/45, F. J. McDowell and J. G. K. Barry, Penticton, B.C., not recommended by C.B.C.

Applications for Short Wave Stations From October 1943 to October 1945
Saskatchewan
15/7/44, CKB'I, Prince Albert, Sask., not recommended by C.B.C.
Alberta
12/6/44, CFGP, Grande Prairie, Alta., not recommended by C.B.C.
British Columbia
12/6/45, Mrs. O. A. Jorgenson, Powell River, B.C., not recommended by C.B.C.
Applications for Frequency Modulation Broadcasting Licences
From October 1943 to October 1945 Manitoba
14/4/44, Winnipeg Tribune, Winnipeg, Man., filed pending final determination of general policy.
17/5/44, CKRC, Winnipeg, Man., filed pending final determination of general policy.
6/7/44, TransCanada Communications Ltd., Winnipeg, Man., filed pending final determination of general policy.
7/10/44, T. Eaton Co. Ltd., Winnipeg, Man., filed pending final determination of general policy.
13/12/44, CKY, Winnipeg, Man., filed pending final determination of general policy.
2/6/45, CFAR, Flin Flon, Man., filed pending final determination of general policy.
Saskatchewan
31/3/44, CKCK, Regina, Sask., filed pending final determination of general policy.
31/3/44, CKRM, Regina, Sask., filed pending final determination of general policy.
6/7/44, TransCanada Communications Ltd, Regina, Sask., filed pending final determination of general policy.
Questions

Date-Name of Applicant-Location-Action Taken
Saskatchewan-Con'.
6/7/44, TransCanada Communications Ltd., Saskatoon, Sask., filed' pending final determination of general policy.
28/7/44, The Leader Post, Regina, Sask., filed pending final determination of general policy.
16/9/44, Prince Albert Daily Herald, Prince Albert, Sask., filed pending final determination of general policy.
1/3/45, CKBI, Prince Albert, Sask., filed pending final determination of general policy.
1/8/45, The Times Co. Ltd., Moose Jaw, Sask., filed 'pending final determination of general policy.
Alberta
31/3/44, CFAC, Calgary. Alta., filed pending final determination of general policy.
4/4/44, CJOC, Lethbridge, Alta., filed pending final determination of general policy.
12/4/44, CFCN, Calgary, Alta., filed pending final deterriiination of general policy.
20/6/44, CJCJ, Calgary, Alta., filed pending final determination of general policy.
13/12/44, Alberta Free Press, Admonton, Alta., filed pending final determination of general policy-
6/2/45. CFRN, Edmonton, Alta., filed pending final determination of general policy.
British Columbia
4/10/43, CKWX, Vancouver, B.C., filed pending final determination of general policy.
1/4/44,,CJAT, Trail, B.C., filed pending final determination of general policy.
27/3/44, Standard Broadcast System, Ltd., Vancouver, B.C., filed pending final determination of general policy.
26/4/44, Vancouver Daily Province, Vancouver, B.C., filed pending final determination of general policy.
9/5/44, W. G. Southam. Vancouver, B-C., filed pending final determination of general policy.
1/8/44, W. Moorhouse, Chilliwack, B.C. filed pending final determination of general policy.
28/8/44, CHWK, Chilliwack, B.C., filed pending final determination of general policy.
3/11/44, CKNW, New Westminster, B.C., filed pending final determination of general policy.

22/11/44, British Columbian, New Westminster, B.C., filed, pending final determination of general policy.
2/12/44, Nelson Daily News, Nelson, B.C. filed pending final determination of general policy.
8/3/45, D. W. Meakin, Vancouver, B.C., filed pending final determination of general policy.
18/5/45, CJOR, Vancouver, B.C., filed pending final determination of general policy.
Applications for Television From October 1943 to October 1945
Manitoba
14/4/44, Winnipeg Tribune, Winnipeg, Manitoba, filed pending final determination of general policy.
6/7/44, TransCanada Communications Ltd., Winnipeg, Manitoba, filed pending final determination of general policy.
7/12/44, T. Eaton Co. Ltd., Winnipeg, Manitoba, filed pending final determination of general policy.
Saskatchewan
31/3/44, CKCK, Regina, Sask., filed pending final determination of general policy.
31/3/44, CKRM, Regina, Sask., filed pending of general policy.
6/7/44, TransCanada Communications Ltd., Saskatoon, Sask., filed pending final determination of general policy.
6/7/44, TransCanada Communications, Ltd., Regina, Sask., filed pending final determination of general policy.
28/7/44, The Leader Post, Regina, Sask., filed pending final determination of general policy.
Alberta
31/3/44, CFAC, Calgary, Alta., filed pending determination of general policy.
4/4/44, CJOC, Lethbridge, Alta., filed pending final determination of general policy.
6/5/44, CJCA, Edmonton, Alta., filed pending final determination of general policy.
20/6/44, CJCJ, Calgary, Alta., filed pending final determination of general policy.
6/2/45, CFRN, Edmonton, Alta., filed pending final determination of general policy.
British Columbia
9/5/44, Vancouver Daily Province, Vancouver, B.C., filed pending final determination of general policy.

Questions
Date-Name of Applicant-Location-Action Taken
Applications for Facsimile From October 1943 to October 1945.
Manitoba
6/7/44, TransCanada Communications Ltd., Winnipeg, Man., filed pending final determination of general policy.
Saskatchewan
6/7/44, TransCanada Communications Ltd., Saskatoon, Sask., filed pending final determination of general policy.
21/7/44, TransCanada Communications Ltd., Regina, Sask., filed pending final determination of general policy.
28/7/44, The Leader Post, Regina, Sask., filed pending final determination of general policy.
Alberta
6/5/44, CJCA, Edmonton, Alta., filed pending final determination of general policy.
20/6/44, CJCJ, Calgary, Alta., filed pending final determination of general policy.
British Columbia
9/5/44, Vancouver Daily Province, Vancouver, B.C., filed pending final determination of general policy. [DOT]


R.C.A.F.-PROPERTY AT 80 YOUNG AVENUE, HALIFAX
Mr. NICHOLSON:: 1.	What is the estimated cost of the project to modernize the architectural design of the house at 80 Young avenue, Halifax, for the air vice-marshal of eastern air command, R.C.A.F.?
2.	What items will this cover?
3.	Has this expenditure been approved by A.F.H.Q.?
4.	Has the construction controller approved the use of labour materials for this project?


Mr. GIBSON (Hamilton West):: 1.	SI,401.
2.	Removal of defective turret and extension of roof over area formerly occupied by turret; rebuilding verandah.
3.	Yes.
4.	No. Work carried out by service personnel.


TAXATION-REVENUE IN LAST TWO FISCAL YEARS
Mr. BLACK (Yukon):: What amount has the federal government of Canada received from, (1) sales tax, during each of the two fiscal years last past; (2) from
alcoholic liquor, including beer, in excise, customs, sales tax and all other forms of impost during each of the two fiscal years last past?


Mr. McCANN:: 1.	Gross Revenue
Sales tax	1943-44	$339,255,631 15Sales tax	1944-45	404,108,503 572.	Excise DutiesSpirits matured ...	1943-44	$ 28,777,058 26Spirits matured ...	1944-45	29,379.837 14Spirits unmatured.	1943-44	2,131,177 98Spirits unmatured.	1944-45	2,196.939 35Validation fee ....	1943-44	441,258 07Validation fee ....	1944-45	633,523 08Beer from malt...	1943-44	35,080.380 96Beer from malt...	1944-45	35,121.290 18Beer from other materials 	1943-44	371,955 99Beer from other materials 	1944-45	7,102.636 34Wines	1943-44	1,710,216 79Wines	1944-45	1,772,375 12Beer 	1943-44	Customs Duties $ 27,736 00Beer 	1944-45	34,312 00Liquors 	1943-44	9.692,345 00Liquors 	1944-45	12,390,526 00The records of the department are not kept in such a way that it is possible to give the war exchange tax collected on beer and liquor imported, nor on sales tax collected on domestic sales.	.


INCOME TAX-REFUNDS
Mr. HAMEL:: 1.	What was the number, by provinces, of taxpayers, whose income tax was deducted at the source in the fiscal years 1939-40, 1940-41, 1941-42, 1942-43, 1943-44, 1944-45?
2.	What was the number, by provinces and for each of said years, of such taxpayers who claimed from the government refund of tax overpayment?
3.	What was the number, by provinces and for each of said years, of such claims which . were paid by the government?


Mr. McCANN:: 1.	No distinction has been drawn for statistical purposes between those taxpayers whose tax may have been partially or wholly paid by deductions at the source and those who pay directly to the department without deductions at the source.	,
2.	No separate record is maintained of refunds claimed apart from those which are claimed and paid during a fiscal year.
3.	Deductions at the source commenced as to national defence tax in July of 1940 ending in August, 1942, and was replaced by de-
Questions

ductions at the source	for general	income tax
purposes in September	, 1942. Refunds of tax	
deducted at the source	commenced	. during the
1941-42 fiscal year. Information as to earlier		
fiscal years, therefore,	does not apply.	
Number of refunds of	tax deducted at source	
issued by	fiscal years	
Province	1941-42	1942-43Prince Edward Island	.. 27	276Nova Scotia 	.. 872	5,920New Brunswick 	.. 425	2,600Quebec 	.. 11,979	37,063Ontario 	.. 20.689	61,351Manitoba 	.. 2,952	11,724Saskatchewan 	.. 996	3,832Alberta 	.. 1,719	7,044British Columbia 	.. 6,470	34,990Yukon 	.. 52	117Canada 	.. 46,181	164,917Province	1943-44	1944-45Prince Edward Island	.. 1,083	2,407Nova Scotia 	.. 41,216	58,869New Brunswick 	.. 19,918	26,845Quebec 	.. 232,126	281,443Ontario 	.. 417,510	416,492Manitoba 	.. 50,399	59,103Saskatchewan 	.. 22,803	27,037Alberta 	.. 35,563	47,689British Columbia 	. 109,481	121,002Yukon 	. 372	377Canada 	. 930,471	1,041,264


PARITY PRICE OP WHEAT
Mr. FAIR:: What is the present parity price of wheat based on the, (a) 1926-29 period; (b), 1915-19 period; (c) 1913-14 period?


Mr. MacKINNON:: In an effort to give the hon. gentleman an answer I took up this question with the Canadian wheat board, and they advised me that they had no information. I then took up the question with the bureau of statistics, and they advised me that "parity price" is an arbitrary something, not readily definable, and that they had no information. I have taken it up with other departmental officials and they advise me that possibly this is a question that might be answered by my colleague the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner), with whom I have so far not had an opportunity of speaking.


Robert Fair: Then it is about time to start teaching somebody something practicable.


SURPLUS WAR ASSETS-POLYMER CORPORATION
Mr. MURPHY:: 1.	Have any buildings, machinery or equipment formerly used or owned by the Polymer Corporation Limited, or any of its associated

operating companies, at Sarnia township, Lambton county, been disposed of by War Assets Corporation?
2.	If so, what are the particulars including prices and names of purchasers?


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.


WARTIME HOUSING LIMITED
Mr. FLEMING:: 1.	How much money has been expended by, or through, Wartime Housing Limited (by years) since its incorporation?
2.	How many persons are employed by Wartime Housing Limited?


George James McIlraith: Fiscal year
1.	1941-42	
1942-	43	
1943-	44	
1944-	45	
1945M6	
2.	1,566 employees


RADIO BROADCASTING-SHORT WAVE STATION
Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: 1.	Is the Department of Trade and Commerce utilizing the facilities of the short wave radio broadcasting station?
2.	If so, to what extent?
3.	What payments are being made to the C.B.C.?


Mr. MacKINNON:: 1.	Yes-information based on dominion bureau of statistics reports dealing with trade and economic subjects is broadcast from time to time over the short wave broadcasting station. It is hoped that more extensive use will be made of this means of publicity in the near future.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	No payments.


RADIO BROADCASTING-INDIVIDUAL LICENCE FEES
Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: 1.	What was the total amount of money collected from individual radio licence fees during the fiscal year 1944-45?
2.	What was the amount of commission paid?
3.	What was the total cost of collection?
4.	How much of the money so obtained was transferred to the C.B.C.?


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	Radio receiving licences, $4,267,325.
2.	Commissions paid, $304,124.15.
3.	Total cost of collection, $521,472.75 (including commissions).
4.	Transferred to C.B.C., $3,795,886.51.
...	$15,106,305	23...	35,014,720	33...	24,564,534	37...	14,017,857	18...	6,246,458	22
(as of Oct. 1, 1945)

_______________Questions as Orders for Returns


CANADIAN FLAG
Jean-François Pouliot: What is "the shield of the coat of arms of Canada" in the fly of the Canadian red ensign referred to in R.O. of May 10, 1944?


Mr. LAPOINTE:: Arms or ensigns armorial* of the Dominion of Canada authorized by royal proclamation of His Majesty, King George V, on the 21st day of November, 1921, at the request of the Governor General in Council of the Dominion of Canada.


INDIANS
Mr. CASTLEDEN:: 1.	What steps have been taken by the government to set up a royal commission to inquire into the conditions of the Indians across Canada prior to the amendment of the Indian Act?
2.	Have any organizations in Canada petitioned or requested the government for such a commission?
3.	If so, what organizations?


Mr. GLEN:: 1.	Consideration has been given to the desirability of appointing a royal commission to inquire into the needs of the Indian population. No decision, however, with respect to the matter has been reached.
2.	A number of organizations have recently petitioned the government for the creation of such a commission.
3.	Committee of friends of the Indians, the Alberta council on child and family welfare, Okanagan society for the revival of Indian arts and crafts, Indian association of Alberta, North American Indian brotherhood.


RESERVE POOL OF SHIPS
Mr. FRASER:: What steps have been or are being taken by the government to establish a reserve pool of ships in Canada when ships are released by the united nations?


George James McIlraith: As all Canadian cargo
ships are now occupied in useful trade, the question of a reserve pool has not yet arisen.


NATIONAL MEMORIAL DAT
Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	Has the government received from various ex-servicemen's associations a request for the establishing of one day in each year to be known as a national memorial day for the purpose of commemorating the sacrifices made by Canadians both in world war I and world war II?
2.	If so, has consideration been given to this request and has any decision been reached?


Mr. MARTIN:: 1.	Yes, from one ex-servicemen's association.
2.	To be considered at a later date. See Secretary of State's remarks, House of Commons Debates, October 11, 1945, page 928.


NATIONAL REGISTRATION
Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: 1.	Is the system of national registration being continued?
2.	If so, how many are employed at the present time in connection with its administration?


Mr. MITCHELL:: 1.	Yes.
2.	The number employed at the present time in connection with the administration of national registration is 255.


SURPLUS WAR ASSETS-AMMUNITION AND EXPLOSIVES AT BOUNDARY BAY, B.C.
Mr. REID:: 1.	Has a quantity of surplus ammunition and explosives been disposed of by the Boundary Bay air station in British Columbia?
2.	If so, by what method?
3.	Was a quantity of this material discovered by youths in the neighbourhood, and accidents caused ?
4.	If so, will- a thorough investigation be conducted and a report made?


Mr. GIBSON (Hamilton West):: 1.	Yes.
2.	Explosives were taken to sea and sunk. Pyrotechnics were burnt.
3.	Yes. One youth was injured.	[DOT]
4.	Yes. A court of inquiry is now sitting.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Jean-François Pouliot: What has been the cost of the public relations branch (army) for each military district, in each year, since the beginning of the war?


SPIRITS, MALT LIQUORS, BEER AND WINE
[Stage Direction]
-Mr. NICHOLSON:
1.	What was the total quantity of, (a) spirits; (b) malt liquors; (c) beer; (d) wine, produced in Canada in each of the years, 1935 to 1944?
2.	What was the total quantity of, (a) spirits; (b) malt liquors; (c) beer; (d) wine, consumed in Canada during each of the above mentioned years ?

Mr. ISNOR:: For a copy of all correspondence, reports and other documents between C. A. Massey of Lever Brothers, Toronto, or any official of that firm,
Motions jor Papers

and any branch or official of the government during the past three months, dealing with subject of government built low-cost houses.


CANADIAN ARMY-PRIVATE MARCEL POIRIER
Mr. BERTRAND (Terrebonne):: For a copy of all documents, transfers, applications for transfer, etc., contained in the file of Private Marcel Poirier, D-497231, now stationed at No. 8 depot, R.C.A.S.C., Sardis, B.C.


CANADIAN ARMY
Lionel Bertrand: For a copy of the court-martial judgment in the case of Privates Jacques Metayer, D-654781; Gaspard Durocher, D-638314; Rolland Labelle, D-643916; Camile Chamberland, D-615584.


Hugues Lapointe: I have explained to the hon. member that in the past it has not been the practice to produce the proceedings of courts martial, and he has agreed to drop this motion.
Motion dropped.


CANOL PROJECT
Mr. FULTON:: 1.	For a copy of all correspondence, contracts and agreements since May 5. 1944, between the Canadian government and, (a) the government of United States of America; (b) the Imperial Oil Company of Canada; (c) any other government or company, concerning or affecting the disposition of the Canol project and/or any other actual or potential oil resources in the Yukon or Northwest Territories.
2.	For a copy of all governmental papers and orders in council compiled or passed since the 5th May, 1944, concerning or affecting the disposition of the Canol project and/or any other actual or potential oil resources in the Yukon or Northwest Territories.


Mr. GLEN:: I am informed that several of the agreements referred to in this motion were filed during the last parliament, and the return will show the dates.


Mr. HOMUTH:: Does the minister mean that any that have not been filed, will be filed?


James Allison Glen: Quite.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: And reference made to those that have been filed?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I should like to make an additional qualification. This motion calls for certain correspondence. It is usual to ask, and of course it is always granted, the concurrence of the government concerned for the purpose of filing the correspondence. I am sure also the hon. member would not

require us to file anything more than the formal correspondence and agreements, not the informal exchanges between officials.


Mr. FULTON:: That is satisfactory.


OLD AGE PENSIONS
Mr. D. S. HAHKNESS (Calgary East) moved:: This matter has been the subject of bitter contention among oiir original Canadians for many years and to our knowledge many letters and resolutions by citizens, churches and other organizations have been received by your government asking for a square deal to our aged Indian folk, but as far as we know, all appeals have been ignored.
The matter of urgency is brought sharply and decisively to our notice at this time by our returned Indian servicemen who demand of us to take action at once, as they, the Indian returned soldiers are not in the least satisfied to see the same old conditions of poverty existing among their old people in this day and age, as they return from overseas.
We wish you to know that the issue of a decent pension to our senior citizens at this time is a matter entirely separate from our demands for the complete revision of the Indian Act which we hope is being considered by your government now. As we have informed you in the past we are still in complete readiness to proceed to Ottawa to offer advice to those handling the changes necessary, so as to enable tL.in to bring into being an Indian Act worthy oi the name, duly considering this modern atomic age of progress.
Hoping and praying for your speedy action to relieve the suffering of our aged people in the meantime.
We are, Sir, on behalf of your real Canadians, Yours respectfully,
Chief Win. Scow,
President. Herbert Cook,
General Secretary.
There is no doubt that our Indian population by and large is as intelligent as the white population. They see the conditions which exist just as well as we do, and they have come more and more to feel a sense of grievance and injustice at the general treatment they have received.
I have purposely not spoken to-day on the general Indian question, because I do not want this resolution to be confused by a long discussion on general Indian affairs and Indian betterment. I have kept my remarks entirely confined to the granting of the old age pension to our Indian population.
I think the simple justice of bringing the Indians under the Old Age Pension Act, and so removing the disadvantages in that regard under which they suffer at the present time, is so obvious that I would be merely wasting the time of the house in putting forth any more arguments in connection with it.
Mr. SOLON E. LOW (Peace River):	I
want to say only a word in connection with this resolution, on behalf of the group which I represent. First, I congratulate the hon. member for Calgary East (Mr. Harkness) upon presenting this resolution, particularly because it deals with a section of our population that do not vote; therefore it is the more praiseworthy that the hon. member has brought it forward, since he cannot hope to get votes out of it.

I believe it is only reasonable that we should extend to the original settlers of this country, in their old age, and in their incapacity through blindness, to treatment which we extend to citizens who came into this country and took the land away from the Indians.
My judgment is that nobody should talk this resolution out; and lest I set a bad example I simply say that we support the resolution.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak to this resolution this afternoon because I think that the plea which was put forward on behalf of the aged Indian people of this country is nothing less than simple justice. It is for this reason that I second the resolution. I fully agree with the hon. member for Peace River (Mr. Low) that nobody should try to talk out the resolution. It is not one which can have any political significance, because, as he pointed out, no votes are involved. Therefore I propose to make my remarks very brief.
I should like first simply to agree as to the general truth, of what has been said by the hon. member for Calgary East (Mr. Harkness), who moved the resolution. Anyone who has visited the reservations cannot fail to concur in what has been said as to the plight of the aged Indian people. It is, I submit, a condition which we should regard every bit as much a responsibility of ours as we regard the lot of any other underprivileged section of our society in Canada to-day.
I think the argument advanced by the hon. member for Calgary East has particular force when we consider the record of these Indian people in the two great world wars. Anyone who had experience, particularly in the battle lines, in either war will realize the truth of what is said when we point to the record of service of these Indian people, who, strangely enough, never seemed: to find their way into the rear areas unless it were into a hospital, but always-I should say 994 per cent of them -saw service in the very foremost trenches. No tribute is too high to pay to them for their record in both the great world wars. If we were willing to call upon the Indians to share our sacrifice in full-and we did not exempt them from any of the hardships or suffering involved

we are nothing short of bound in honour and in morality to extend to them the same privileges, the same treatment which we accord to our own people when, through ill fortune or old age, they are incapacitated and fall on hard times.
One last ground on which I think we can find ready support for this resolution is this. It is surely not in keeping with the enlight-

Old Age Pensions-Indians
ened state of our civilization to leave one group or one set of people in circumstances which are in such marked contrast to those of other groups. As was pointed out by the hon. member for Calgary East, we do not wish to go into the question of the revision of the whole Indian Act, because that would involve issues which have no place here to-day and would needlessly complicate the question. Confining the discussion, therefore, to the simple question of the condition of these Indian people in their old age, surely no opposition can be found on moral, economic or any other grounds to this proposal, which in the matter of old age pensions would put that one section of our people on no more than an equal footing with those of the white race.


Mr. G. H. CASTLEDEN (Yorkton):: Adding the support of another group to the resolution before us this afternoon, we have consistently asked the government to do more on behalf of these underprivileged people. If this resolution will serve the purpose of calling the attention of Canadians generally to the terrible suffering that exists among our Indian population, not only on the reserves in the west, but across the whole of Canada, it will have accomplished much good. As a result of protests we and others have made, the government has this year increased expenditures in the Indian affairs branch to the extent of about $1,000,000. The money is seriously needed. These people have been put on these reserves in Canada, and the economic con. dition has made it a hardship for them to make a living in any way. Fishing, hunting and agricultural pursuits leave them with a very low standard of living. They have practically no way of having their voice heard.
The Indian affairs branch sends out its Indian agents and reports are submitted by them, but so far as the public is concerned, I think I am safe in saying that ninety per cent of the people of Canada do not. know anything of the terrific hardship and suffering among our Indians. We have some official records with regard to the health conditions on the reserves, and we know there is tuberculosis and much disease among these people. Nothing is being done at present to meet the situation at all adequately.
A request has come to the department for a royal commission to investigate the matter. The present minister is just taking over this branch of the government and we understand that he is new on the job. The retiring minister said last year that it was intended to revise the Indian Act, and I would suggest that before that is done there be a thorough
investigation into Jhe conditions of the Indians in Canada. I suggest that a royal commission be appointed or an inquiry be made, so that an opportunity will be afforded to have all the facts brought to light and the Indians given a chance to present their case. Then a proper study may be made of ways and means whereby present conditions can be remedied. When that is done, then the act should be revised in the light of all the facts.
Some of the most terrible suffering I have ever seen in Canada prevails among the older people on the Indian reserves in this land of ours. They try as best they can to carry on with their brother Indians; they go on the trapping lines; they work together and help one another in every way possible; but under conditions as they now exist, the livelihood they can secure is spread so thin that it does not help these people very much.
In my opinion the attitude toward the Indians has to be changed. I hear too many official people saying that you cannot trust the Indian, that he is not industrious, that he is lazy and that he will work only for a short time. Some of the work that has been carried on in the fur-farming areas in Canada will refute that statement.	.
I have visited the Hudson Bay post at Norway House within the past two years, and there I found the factor carrying on his store and doing all the work about the place with nothing but Indian help. He had a boy operating a radio set for two-way communication with outlying posts and aeroplanes in the vicinity. I believe that factor will tell you that these people, if given a chance, would prove the equal of any in our population. They should have an opportunity for education and for training. They certainly are underprivileged, and I suggest that the time is long past when something should be done for them. We heartily endorse this resolution, and I feel sure it will have the support of members of the house who know anything about the subject.


Mr. J. H. MATTHEWS (Kootenay East):: As I have already indicated in this house, I have spent some years of my life among the Indians on the north Pacific coast and I know that their needs are the same as those of Indians on reserves anywhere else in Canada. On the north Pacific coast the Indian has to get his living by working at the salmon canneries, fishing, logging and trapping; and yet, with all that, he is only able to look forward to a bare subsistence.
I should not like to take up the time of the house telling harrowing tales of the things I have seen, of the homes I have visited again

Old Age Pensions-Indians
and again, of the old people who, definitely, have been neglected in years past by this government-


An hon. MEMBER:: Every government.


James Herbert Matthews: Yes, every government. They are spoken of as wards of the government. Well, Mr. Speaker, I think it is high time the government took better care of these wards if it wants to keep its good name. That the government is aware of its obligation to these people is shown in the fact that the sick, the aged and the indigent are granted a measure of relief to the extent of four or five dollars a month. I know this is true because in the past I have had something to do with the administration of these measly sums that are handed out by a so-called generous government.
No one in this country has a greater need in their old age, a need to be satisfied by the government, than our Indians. I am heartily in accord with all that has been said this afternoon, and I hope the government will take immediate steps to see that the Indians of Canada are treated on the same basis as white people so far as old age pensions are concerned.


Mr. DANIEL McIYOR (Fort William):: I consider I have a perfect right to speak on this resolution because about seven years ago I was received into the mystic rites of the Ojibway Indian tribe. I was made Chief Sky. Since then I have not been looking down on any Indian tribe. On the contrary, I am intensely interested, as m fact I was before, in the welfare of the Ojibway Indians, and I support this resolution for the following reasons.
While the Indian may not be as white as we are, while his complexion may be darker, he is a human being and he has to eat and sleep and clothe himself respectably. I know that the Indian gets treaty money if he is in good standing; but, as the Minister of Mines and Resources knows, no Indian, if he is to live respectably, as the minister and I like to live, or to eat, as he and I do, can get along on treaty money; and when the time comes that he cannot earn his own living he has as good a right as other people in the country to have an old age pension if he needs it, because the Indians sent their sons to fight in this war just as we sent ours, and some of them have clothed the name of Canada in glory by their heroism and self-sacrifice. Therefore in their old age we should tell them that we are proud of them, and that they will have enough to eat, clothes to wear, and the thing to drink that will do them good.

When we think of Indians we also think of them as individuals. I can recall at least one family where the treaty money was not sufficient. In that home there was an invalid, who was cared for by the old couple. I will admit that I wrote the then minister in an endeavour to get the old age pension for those people, but I did not succeed. I now appeal to the present minister, who is a man of great liberality, and whether or not this resolution is passed I am sure he will take into consideration the human needs of these people.
Mr. G. Iv. FRASER (Peterborough West): Having two Indian reserves in my riding, Mr. Speaker, I believe I know something about the needs of the Indians. Since the government talker-outer, the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre (Mr. Maybank) is not in the house at the present time, although I dare say he will be here in a few minutes, I think I am entitled to take a moment or two to discuss this matter.
In Peterborough county we have the Hiawatha. Indian reserve on Rice lake as well as the Curve Lake reserve, or the Mud Lake reserve as it is called by the government, on Chemong lake. Years ago the treaty money these Indians received, together with the money they earned by trapping, fishing and guiding, was sufficient to enable them to get along, but during the.last twenty-five years the districts in which these Indians live have been built up by the white people. Today Rice lake is absolutely surrounded by cottages, which are inhabited all summer long by people who do a great deal of fishing. The construction of these cottages all around the lake has also interfered with the trapping of the Indians, so that they cannot get the muskrats they could trap a few years ago. The same applies to Chemong lake; this year at least fifty small cottages were built around that lake, closing the Indians off from their trapping grounds. The Indians are able to do some guiding in the summer time, but that is only for a matter of a month or two, and during the war they were not able to do very much guiding because they were not able to get the boats.
From these two reserves and from the Burleigh Falls Indian settlement every young boy of military age volunteered for war service. In those Indian villages many homes will never see their boys return, while other Indian lads who have returned will never be able to trap again because of their wounds or because they are in such physical condition that they cannot get around as they did previously.
I consider that the Indians are entitled to the old age pension. They are human beings,

Old Age Pensions-Indians
the same as you and I. We have to,look after them. This resolution is timely, and something should be done along this line. At Burleigh Falls we have an Indian school which was established some seven years ago. I know a good deal about that school, because my wife has been trustee of that school and chairman of the board for some time; and incidentally she was appointed by the Liberal provincial government. I have seen Indian children come to that school without knowing the first thing about sanitation or anjdhing else and, under proper supervision and management, brought along until to-day as students they are as good as if not better than many of the pupils in our own public schools. It is to the grandfathers and grandmothers and perhaps the fathers and mothers of these children that this pension should be given, so that the children themselves may be helped along, and that is why I support this resolution.


Mr. MAX CAMPBELL (The Battlefords):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to say a few words in support of this resolution, because I think this is one thing the people of Canada should do. We drove the Indians out of this country; we took the country away from them; we penned them into reserves, and certainly they have not had a square deal. I do not intend to speak on this question at any great length this afternoon, because I hope to deal with it more extensively a little later on, but I should like to mention a few points. As one hon. member has said, the Indian is just as much a man as we are, even though his colour is different. I have known many Indians with very high principles, men of real natural culture. I should like to read into the record a letter received from one* Indian of eighty years of age, a man who hunted buffalo in the west fifty years ago, and I do so hoping to persuade hon. members to adopt this resolution this afternoon in order to help men of this kind. He says:
It was thoughtful of you to write. I had just returned from Montana where I attended commemoration services and ceremonies in our own traditional way in honour of the war heroes. Your attitude in advocating a royal commission to solve the Indian question is highly commendable. I am also aware that we Indians are divided in two camps.
I am not going to read it all, because I do not want to take up too much time, but he goes on:
Do you remember that little poem "The Man with the Hoe"? I remember leading it fifty odd years ago, wherein the poet asked: Is this the man whom God created after his own likeness, on whose brow he breathed that spark of divinity, the soul, to look up to the heavens and glorify his works? What has man's
inhumanity to man done to that slanting forehead, that humped back and stooping shoulders, etc.
The question to-day is, what has the white mans civilization done to the native Canadian of whom the early missionaries wrote in glowing terms of his physical perfection, his noble carriage and dignified bearing? Is the red man a casualty of civilization? What progress has he made since signing the treaty in 1874? Would the education he receives fit him into the present tempo of progress?
In the two hemispheres we have thirty million Indians who have organized themselves into a pan-American union. Here in Canada we have the smallest minority and unorganized. In Saskatchewan alone we have three divisional groups working counter to one another.
That is all I am going to read, just to show what kind of people these are. I believe the house should pass this resolution this afternoon.


Mr. J. W. MacNAUGHT (Prince):: Mr. Speaker, I feel I should say a word or two on the resolution, because there is a large Indian reservation in the constituency I have the honour to represent. I know, from intimate knowledge, some of the terrible conditions under which the Indians on the reservations live.
May I commend the hon. member for Calgary East (Mr. Harkness) for bringing this important subject before the house. He deserves a great deal of credit for having done so. The Indians on the reservation on Lennox island, Prince county, Prince Edward Island, for the most part are law abiding, and there is very little serious crime, with the exception of that which is usually associated with penury and want.
In the last war, and in this one, they enlisted in great numbers, and in that respect their efforts have not been surpassed by any other section of the population. Many of them paid the supreme sacrifice, and one was decorated for bravery by His Majesty the King. I know that if a change is made in the act, so that the provisions in respect of old age pensions can be extended to the Indians, the money will be well expended, and will serve two purposes. First it will afford relief to this class, and second, it will increase the purchasing power of the people of Canada. For these reasons I feel I must support the resolution.
Mr. J. II. BLACKMORE (Lethbridge): Mr. Speaker, I, too, desire to support the resolution and to commend the hon. member for Calgary East (Mr. Harkness) upon his thoughtfulness in bringing this matter to the attention of the house.
My first impression in regard to the Indians is that they have just as much difficulty in finding work during a depression as do the
Old Age Pensions-Indians

white people. At the same time they have the disadvantage of being Indians, which puts them under at least a double difficulty or handicap when they go to seek employment.
This is an extremely serious matter, as it works out in the lives of the Indians. Living costs are gradually rising. Indians have to live up to a higher standard of living, just as do the white people, and yet there is no way in which they can increase the incomes they have received in the past. This, too, has an important bearing on the whole matter.
The natural resources on the reserves are gradually diminishing. The grass is not as abundant as it was in former times; the game on the reserves has become almost completely extinct, and. the wood supply from which Indians used to obtain their fuel is seriously depleted. This, again, places the Indians under a serious handicap, and is a matter which ought to be given the most earnest consideration by all persons in responsible positions in Canada.
There is another serious aspect of the Indian problem. I had the opportunity of looking over the treaty which the Indians in the constituency I have the honour to represent signed in 1877. I was almost heartsick to note how many of the fine promises the dominion government made to the Indians in that treaty have not been kept. I am ashamed when I think of the ways and means adopted to sidestep the responsibilities to which we were committed. This is a matter which must not remain disregarded any longer. In the treaty it is set out that the Indians are to be wards of the nation, but I have found very little evidence that they are wards of the nation. More likely it seems to me that the nation is preying upon the Indians.
I do not propose to say more at the present time, but I shall discuss the matter more fully later in the session. I believe I have said enough to indicate my reasons for supporting the resolution.


Mr. JOSEPH ALFRED DION (Lake St. John-Ro'berval) (Translation):: Mr. Speaker,
the resolution now before us greatly interests me, inasmuch as there is in the constituency of Lake St. John, which I have the honour to represent, an Indian reserve inhabited by the "Montagnais." These people are descended from a tribe which roamed through the Saguenay wilderness, in the Lake St. John area, before white settlers came to Canada.
In view of the fact that mountains surround the region, the first discoverers of this country thought of calling the people of that tribe 
" Montagnards," afterwards changed into that of " Montagnais," which has been theirs to this day.
The first trading post in the Saguenay-Lake St. John area was Tadoussac. I believe it is one of the oldest, if not the oldest fur trading post in Canada. It is especially interesting to recall that it was in 1603, at Tadoussac, that the first agreement between white men and Indians in Canada was reached. The parties were Champlain and Pontgrave on the one hand, and the Montagnais and Algonquin tribes on the other hand. I now wish to quote an excerpt from the report made by Samuel de Champlain on that outstanding event:
On landing, writes Champlain, we set out for the cabin of their famous Sagamo (Great Chief of the Montagnais) who is called Anadabijou and found him there making merry-"tabagie" is the Indian term-with some 80 to 100 friends of his; he welcomed us warmly according to the custom of the country, bid us sit next to him while all the other Indians lined both sides of the cabin. One of the Indians we had brought with us began speaking of the warm welcome the king had granted them and of the fine treatment they had received in France; he said they felt sure that His Majesty wished them well and wanted to people their country as well as make peace with their enemies (the Iroquois) or send them troops to defeat them; he also told about the wonderful castles, palaces, houses and people they had seen, and mentioned our way of living. He was heard in the most profound silence.
When he had finished his speech, to which the great Sagamo Anadabijou had listened very carefully, he helped himself to Petun (tobacco) and offered some to the said Sieur Dupont-Gaspe de St-Malo, to myself and a few other Sagamos who stood near him. After having smoked for some time, he began haranguing everyone present, speaking deliberately, pausing occasionally, and then resuming his speech, and telling them that indeed they should be very glad to enjoy His Majesty's warm friendship. They replied in a chorus: Ho, ho, ho, meaning yes, yes. Continuing his harangue, he said that he was very glad that His Majesty sent settlers to open up their land and to rvage war against their enemies. He stated that there was no other nation in the world for which they had more sympathy than the French people; finally, he explained to all the help and the assistance which they could receive from His Majesty.
This shows that the discoverers of our country, Frenchmen, desired to enter into a friendly agreement with the Indian tribes and were not bent on warring against them. From 1603, date of this agreement, to 1647, trading was carried on at Tadoussac. The French traders did not venture up the Saguenay river into the Saguenay and Lake St. John hinterland. Even the missionaries did not penetrate very far into those solitary regions to carry on the evangelization of the Indians; they remained in Tadoussac and the surrounding district. I am pleased to pay tribute to the first missionaries who preached the Gospel to the Indians,

_____________ i Old Age Pensions-Indians
and especially to Father Jean Dolbeau whose outstanding work is well known. A very nice town of the Lake St. John district bears his name and it becomes daily more important due to the initiative and ability of its inhabitants.
In 1647, Father De Quen, a missionary, decided to penetrate farther into the district. He had been called to a Montagnais tribe, the Porcupine tribe, which he had evangelized the previous year, and many of whose members were sick on the shores of lake St. John. He therefore wished to take this opportunity of exploring the territory. On May 11, 1647, he left Tadoussac, with a party of Indians, sailed up the Saguenay river, -made seven portages on Chicoutimi river, crossed lake Keno-gami, went down the Des Aulnets and Belle rivers to land finally, on the shores of lake St. John. There the Indians informed him that this stretch of water was called Piquagami or flat and shallow lake. From this point the panorama was wonderful and the opposite shore was barely visible. Father De Quen was amazed at the sight. He decided to venture on the lake without delay, but at that very moment a great storm arose. Those who know this body of water also know that the storms there are formidable. His canoe was on the point of sinking and it was only due to the skill of the Montagnais who accompanied him that he succeeded in reaching the mouth of Metabetchouan river, his objective. A surprise awaited him there; the Indians had erected a large cross on the shore. They were the very same redskins who had heard Father De Quen's preaching. For this circumstance the chroniclers say that the cross preceded the missionary on the shores of lake St. John.
During the ensuing years the Montagnais continued to saij down to Tadoussac to trade their furs. It is only much later that they realized that the traders were willing to come to them at the source of the river, and this is why Tadoussac was abandoned as a trading post. And thus were established in the wilderness the post df Chicoutimi in the first place, and that of Metabetchouan, later. Both posts were subsequently abandoned. When Canada was ceded to England, fur trading which had flourished for a long time in the lake St. John district had considerably fallen off. Bold adventurers resumed the fur trade and in 1831, following negotiations, the Hudson's Bay company took over most of the trading posts in the lake St. John as well as the Saguenay districts. Later, as iur-bearing animals had become scarce, the Montagnais, whose situation had become rather insecure, asked the government to help them and to find them a reserve either on the shores of the Peribonka
river, or on the shores of the Grande Decharge of lake St. John. Finally, in 1856, they settled at Pointe Bleue where they have remained to this day.
This is a brief summary of the history of the Montagnais tribe of Lake St. John up to the time they finally settled at Pointe Bleue, in 1856.
It would be interesting to review the customs and the habits of the Indians. The Montagnais were extremely nomadic in their habits. They travelled by small groups of two or three families and not as a whole tribe. It was very difficult to get them to settle down in any one spot. Obviously, it was impossible to get them to cultivate the land. They were exclusively hunters, as they were living in an area that was one of the finest in the country from the standpoint of fur trading. It is a mountainous country with numerous rivers and lakes, and covered witli great forests in which all kinds of furdoearing animals could be found.
The Indians bartered their furs with the white men not for gold or silver, common metals which are still held in contempt to-day in certain quarters aind among certain groups, but for trinkets such as glass beads, small mirrors, firearms, swords and foodstuffs which they could not obtain in the district.
The main fur-bearing animals to be found, then as now, in the Saguenay and lake St. John districts were bears, mink, marten, otter and especially beaver, but the latter are unfortunately very scarce to-day.
At that time the beaver was the chief wealth of the country. It was greatly sought after in Europe because at that time beaver hats were the height of fashion, especially in Holland and England. In this connection, let me quote the words of a writer on the history of Saguenay:
In France, in Holland and in England, beaver hats were then the height of fashion. To make them, French and Dutch hatters used the fine underfur of the beaver. When they wanted to turn our hats of high quality they used two kinds of skins, which were called oily beaver and dry beaver. The latter was the skin as taken from the animal. The other, dry beaver, was a skin the Indians had worn, hair inside, as a garment during the winter. The surface hair fell off, and the underfur became impregnated with perspiration and many other things. A mixture of this underfur with that of dry beaver gave to the hat a special lustre which was highly appreciated. Consequently, traders sold the oily beaver for a price twenty times higher.
What I have just quoted shows that the fine Saguenay and lake St. John area was a great, if not the greatest provider of beaver

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skins in the world, and that is why that wealth was very much appreciated at that time.
Since then, conditions have considerably changed. Since 1856 the Montagnais have settled down at Pointe-Bleue, where they have remained, having to travel up the great rivers which flow into lake St. John. They have moved farther and farther towards the north in order to find good hunting grounds where they might pursue their activities. I would say that to-day the Montagnais play a three-fold part in the economy of that area. First, they maintain fur-trade and meet very keen competition from our French-Canadian trappers. They are also matchless guides for sportsmen who wish to hunt moose and caribou, because they know the district better than any one else, and finally they carry out explorations in the northern areas. As a matter of fact, prospectors who really want to reach remote sections in the north, whether by plane or by canoe, find that the Montagnais are perfect guides for such trips.
Those are the three main fields of activity of our Montagnais, which shows that they are still quite useful, and that, therefore, it would be wise to ensure their survival, not only because of the romantic charm of their tribe, but on account of their usefulness to us all. Unfortunately, their number has much decreased. Tuberculosis has wrought terrible havoc among them and, sad to say, the more they come into contact with white people, the more they acquire the latter's shortcomings and weaknesses, while in no way developing the qualities inherent in the white race. ,
With a view to remedying such a situation, an endeavour has been made to move the Indians farther toward the north country and there again, the Oblate Fathers, who have always shown much concern for the Montagnais, are those who have accomplished the most on their behalf. Incidentally, it is with great pleasure that I pay public tribute to these missionaries, the benefactors of our Indians.
At present, the Reverend. Oblate Fathers have established at the dangerous passes on the shores of the Peribonka river, some hundred miles from lake St. John, the core of another Montagnais reserve designed to shelter them, -in so far as possible, from the evils of civilization.
I have outlined the history and condition of the Montagnais tribe of the Lake St. John district. I wanted to give the house these informative details which surely interest the members of the government.
[Mr. Dion.l
In conclusion, may I say that I heartily endorse the resolution and congratulate the mover, for the Indians are just grown-up children who know nothing about saving. They are constantly threatened by famine and want if we do not help them. In my opinion, therefore, it is an excellent idea to grant this old age pension to Indians who are well on in years. It is with pleasure, therefore, that I endorse the resolution.
(Text)


Mr. J. L. GIBSON (Comox-Albemi):: Mr. Speaker, in rising to support the hon. member for Calgary East (Mr. Harkness) I should like to congratulate him upon the humanity and sense of fair play he has displayed in introducing this motion in the house. The hon. member for Fort William (Mr. Mclvor) has said that he is a member of an Indian band. I understand he is a chief, and I wish to congratulate him on the very high honour which the Indians paid him in that regard.
My own home residence is in Ahousat, an Indian village in the heart of British Columbia, with seventeen white voters and two hundred Indians. I have lived there for the past twenty-five years and I have an intimate knowledge of how our Indians live. In Comox-Alberni we have the largest Indian population of any constituency in British Columbia. There are several hundred Indian reserves there.
One hon. member has suggested this afternoon that we feel that our Indians are in some respects, not quite equal to the white population. My own observation for the past many years is that the Indians have a great many natural talents, more natural talents perhaps than the average white man. They are able seamen, have great ability in learning and understanding music, and are artistically inclined. Their ability to build those remarkable war canoes out of cedar logs is something that has to be seen to be appreciated.
We, of course, now have an Indian pension. It is not termed that, but in giving it we satisfy ourselves that we are doing something for ouUaged Indians. I do not think the house is aware of how this little chit which the old Indian gets at the end of the month is worded. It is really a great morale builder for these poor old Indians, our senior citizens and earliest inhabitants. Our Indian agents in their infinite wisdom go around the country and decide that certain Indians should get a pension. They say to such an Indian: "You should be able to rustle a few dog salmon a year and we deem you worthy of this magnificent pension which your great White Father the government will give you." After all that menagerie they give him a slip reading, "Please supply to the undermentioned destitute and

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indigent Indian of the Ahousat band the following list of supplies." That is certainly a great way to buck a man up. Fortunately the department do not cast any aspersions on the man's ancestry, and I am glad they do not go to that length. Here is the ration a single Indian is entitled to: one package of salt; twelve ounces of baking powder; twenty-four pounds of flour; two pounds of rice; half pound of tea; two pounds of lard; a package of matches; fifty cents worth of bacon. That all adds up to the magnificent sum of $2.80, depending upon how badly the Indian gets gypped by the storekeeper. If the Indian is fortunate enough to have a wife and puts on a banquet he gets double the single man's ration, approximately $5.25 worth of food. Really the unparalleled generosity of the government is worthy of great commendation!
From a nutritional point of view I have no doubt that we can cite caloric values and decide that the Indians are getting ample food on that ration. But I would suggest that the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Claxton), who is taking over from the Minister of Mines and Resources (Mr. Glen) medical services, is certainly going to have quite a time in looking after the health and welfare of the Indians if that is all the food we see they get. In taking over the medical care of the Indians he is taking on a greater chore probably than he realizes, because the medical services in the past have been actually appalling. A friend of mine, a doctor who had been in the Indian field at one time, had the greatest difficulty in getting any assistance from the government in giving the Indians the medical care which they definitely need. The Indians, as most members are aware, are extremely subject to tuberculosis; the conditions under which they live have never given them much of a chance to eliminate that great scourge among them, and so long as we leave them in their present housing and sanitary conditions I am afraid that whoever is in charge of taking care of the health and welfare of the Indians will have a heavy job on his hands. Of course the Minister of Mines and Resources is taking over a new position for him, but may I suggest to him. that he has the greatest opportunity in his career to make a real contribution to Indian life in this country. It is something that is long overdue.
Some hon. members to-day have suggested that we have just passed the buck around in our treatment of the Indians. It is not the fault of any administration in particular because it goes back for many years and through many administrations, and my hon. friends opposite me to my right have some
responsibility in the matter too, because they at one time were, I imagine, either Liberals or Conservatives.
I do not want to go into a long discussion of the residential schools because I would be accused of talking this motion out. I shall simply say that the residential school accommodation for Indians is only about one-quarter as much as is needed. We have found that with the government in the picture, plus three or four religious denominations, the Indians actually have been allowed to fall between two stools as it were and have not received the adequate care which they should have. There is no question about it that conditions among the Indians are as have been described here to-day by hon. mem- . bers who have visited the reserves. I have lived for twenty-five years steadily amongst the Indians and I could tell stories here which would make the Indian affairs branch feel very badly about what they have done.
It has been suggested that conditions among the Indians are as they are because they are not voters, but I think the time is rapidly coming when the Indians will be voters in this country. But whether or not they become voters we have a definite responsibility toward them, and we should also consider it as a straight matter of being fair to the Indians.
The Indians in my constituency are very heavy income tax payers. The government ' have an efficient method of collecting the tax on all catches of fish, and I am sure that the Indians really pay their share of the income tax.
I intend to give my support to the resolution when it comes to a vote, and I hope and really believe that the government will take it into consideration. The old age pension for the Indians would be a very small amount in the aggregate and undoubtedly there is a great field for improvement and investigation in the Indian life of this country.


Mr. NORMAN JAQUES (Wetaskiwin):: Mr. Speaker, there are a number of Indian reserves in my riding, but that is not my main reason for making these few remarks. I think all Canadians owe a debt to the Indians of our country. It reminds me of a remark which was made to me a few months ago. I happened to be coming up New York harbour, and as we passed the statue of liberty the colonel to whom I was talking pointed it out to me, and said, "Yes, the statue of liberty; when the Pilgrim fathers first landed in our country they fell on their knees, and then they fell on the aborigi-nes." And I think that is very largely true of our own country.
I hope this resolution will have the wholehearted support of all hon. members.
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James Allison Glen: I am indebted to the hon. member for Calgary East (Mr. Harkness) for having introduced this motion, because it gives me an opportunity to put before the house some facts regarding Indian affairs of which mention has not been made during the course of this debate but which I think ought to be brought to the attention of hon. members in the light of things of which I will speak later.
It gives me, and I am sure all the officials of the department, a very great deal of satisfaction that there is on the part of the public generally and of this House of Commons a more enlightened interest in Indian affairs, than probably, has been exhibited in many years past.
I have noticed that a number of Indian associations are being formed throughout Canada to-day. Only last month I had an opportunity of addressing a large number of Indians who came here for the purpose of forming an organization. On that occasion they were dealing with problems which affected Indians generally throughout the dominion, and their presentation of their conclusions to me afterwards in the form of a brief was made in language comparable in its content and mode of expression with the best that might be given in this house. Their brief was submitted in a spirit of cooperation, and it was intended also to form the basis of an organization of dominion-wide scope, in order that Indian affairs might receive the concerted support of all Indians, and that their representations could be brought before the government in proper form and there decided. It was a great pleasure to meet men who had come from as far west as British Columbia and as far east as Nova Scotia with the idea of having an organization which would speak with the united voice of the Indians so far as that may be possible. I welcomed their cooperation and told them that I should be pleased if it would be possible to have an organization which would represent all the Indians in Canada, because through it we might be able to arrive at an amelioration of many conditions of Indian life which have been rather vexing in the past. I was reminded however by the president that my hopes in this connection might be too utopian and ideal, because he had noticed that white men did not^ always agree, and that there are parties in this house which are opposed to one another.
We have in Canada at the oresent time an Indian population of 125,686 persons, which population is increasing at the rate of 1,500 per annum, and is distributed through the country as follows:	Alberta, 12,441; British
fMr. Jaques.]
Columbia, 25,515; Manitoba, 15,033; New Brunswick, 2,047; Northwest Territories, 3,816; Nova Scotia, 2,364; Ontario, 32,421; Prince Edward Island, 266; Quebec, 15,104; Saskatchewan, 14,158; Yukon, 1,531.
There are no census papers relating to Indians over seventy years of age, but in 1044 the census which was taken showed then 7,658 Indians over sixty-five, and it is assumed that there may be five thousand over seventy years of age, and that the approximate cost of pensions as we now have them would amount, if that be so, to 81,500,000 per year.
I think it is well in the light of the discussion which has taken place to-day, that I should give the house some idea of the assets of the Indians and the method of administration. To-day the Indians have five and a half million acres of land of their own, and a number of the reserves would appear to contain the best agricultural land in the dominion, with a comparatively small acreage under cultivation. For example, last year the land under cultivation amounted to only 189,029 acres. In addition to the reserve lands owned outright by the Indians, the department in recent years leased from provincial governments 35,000,000 acres for the establishment of beaver reserves and the propagation of the muskrat. I am hoping that before this session closes I shall have an opportunity on the estimates of giving the house something of the story of the development of the beaver and the muskrat in Canada. It is a story worth the telling, and it will give some idea of the activities of the Indian department during recent years with a view to providing means of subsistence and livelihood for Indians in the same manner as for white people. It is a story I am anxious to tell; I do not think enough has been made of it. With the cooperation not only of the dominion but of several of the provinces, a work has been undertaken which, if brought to the knowledge of the people of this country, and particularly of the House of Commons, will I am sure receive that degree of support which will enable the government to exceed by far anything that has hitherto been done in the way of grants to this department to carry out what is a great source of revenue for Indians.
There is another aspect of the question of pensions to which I wish to refer. On September 30 of this year the Indians of this country had on deposit with the government 817,117,794, usually referred to as Indian trust, funds. Interest is paid by the government on these funds at the rate of five per cent, which I think is very liberal in the light of the interest paid on all other funds. It is inter-

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esting to note what these funds amount to, for instance, in the case of the Blackfoot band in Alberta-$2,770.82 per head; or, in the case of the Muscowpetung band in the Qu'Appelle agency, $702.47, and in the case of the Dokis band in the Nipissing agency, $4,017.82 per head. The house will realize the difficulties which members of these and other bands would encounter, because of the fact that they have assets, in qualifying under the regulations and rules of the Old Age Pension Act as we have it to-day. I mention that for the purpose of saying that old age pensions for the Indians might have to be on a different basis, because these funds would have to be taken into consideration in the case of any of these Indians who went out of the band, and the amount of the old age pension reduced accordingly, as the amount of assets they had would necessarily have to be considered in connection with any measure to provide them with pensions.
We have provided schools throughout the whole of the dominion. The department has at present seventy-five residential schools in Canada with an enrolment of approximately 9,000 pupils. We have 258 Indian day schools with an enrolment of 8,000, and we have in operation as well a comparatively large number of schools usually referred to as combined white and Indian schools. These educational establishments are maintained by the government and operated in many cases in close cooperation with the churches. These schools differ from the ordinary public or separate schools of the country in that the cost is wholly borne by the dominion government, plus services rendered by the churches, and without cost to the Indian property owners or parents.
Expenditures in 1937-38 were approximately $1,800,000 and in 1945-46 they amount to $2,000,000. We have made provision also whereby hospitalization is given to Indians. We have at present in operation fifteen government-owned and government-operated Indian hospitals. With respect to the hospitalization of Indians, and particularly the programme now under consideration for the treatment of Indians suffering from tuberculosis, it is to me a source of satisfaction to be able to announce that we are about to take over or have taken over from the military authorities four comparatively large hospitals with accommodation for 850 patients.
May I embrace this opportunity to thank the members of the sanatorium boards of a number of the provinces who have cooperated
with us to the utmost extent possible in the establishment of sanatoria for the treatment of Indian patients. In the case of Manitoba they have entered into an agreement with us for the operation and administration of sanatoria in that province. The members of these boards, many of them professional men, have made a life study of tuberculosis and this contribution on their part will, I am sure, enable us to avoid many of the pitfalls of the past.
As the house is also aware, we have family allowances now being paid Indians, and in that connection I should like to point out that there are difficulties in the payment to Indians of money in the form of family' allowances, as there would be in the event of old age pensions being granted Indians as well. It is estimated that for the first year disbursements to Indians under the provisions of the act will amount to a sum exceeding $3,000,000, but I would not be candid if I did not pause to point out that the application of the provisions of this act to Indians has created and is likely to create a large number of administrative problems.
The issuance of monthly cheques to Indians residing in the remote parts of the country, particularly in the Northwest Territories or in the Yukon, or in the western provinces, was found to be wholly unsatisfactory and impracticable, with the result that consideration had to be given to the payment of family allowances not in cash but in supplies. Working out a suitable list of supplies with the emphasis upon foods suitable for growth and physical development of children, coupled with the availability of such supplies, has proved to be an exceedingly difficult task.
It is estimated that provision will have to be made for the payment in goods rather than in cash to at least one-third of the Indian population. At this date 13,000 Indian families have been registered and it is expected that this figure will be increased just as soon as returns are received from a number of remote outlying districts, and that the same system will have to be adopted for the payment of old age pensions as is now adopted with regard to family allowances for the very reason that cash payments in these remote and outlying districts would be of no value because there are no places where purchases can be made. Supplies, therefore, would have to be given the Indians there rather than cash.
That is one of the reasons why there is difficulty in accepting in its entirety the motion made by the hon. member for Calgary
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East (Mr. Harkness). The opinion has been expressed by officials who have made a life study of this question, which they refer to frequently as the Indian problem, that at no time in the history of this country were circumstances more promising for the improvement of conditions of the Indian population.
In this regard I wish to refer to one phase of Indian administration the significance and possibilities of which should not be overlooked. The hon. member for Comox-Alberni referred a moment ago to the nutritional needs of Indians in his district. Surveys have already been made-nutritional and dietary surveys- during the last three or four years in the Indian affairs branch, and these surveys have been undertaken at a number of Indian residential schools and in certain areas of northern Manitoba. In this work we have had- the active cooperation of Doctor Kruse of the Milbank Foundation of New York, Doctor F. F. Tisdall of the R.C.A.F. and the nutritional committee of the Red Cross society. These surveys are designed to secure information with respect to the nutritional needs of the Indians, particularly Indians residing in remote regions, and the adequacy and availability of food supplies necessary for physical development and normal health.
Although this work is new and still in its .nitial stages, a quantity of vitamin tablets nas been purchased and is available for distri-oution, and thirty tons of specially prepared vitamin biscuits are now purchased and distributed annually to Indian day schools. Hon. members will be interested to know that, as regards the aged, unemplojmd and physically incapacitated among the Indians-not those who are well, who are able to go out and earn an income outside the reserve, but only those who -are unemployed, aged and physically incapacitated-the average monthly cost of relief supplies, groceries, and so on is 87, much larger than the amount stated to-day for commodities that have been referred to; while for clothing, boots and shoes the cost is $2; fuel, 82; repairs and upkeep of homes, S2; drugs, medical care, dental services and hospitalization, 81.50. That makes S14.50. That is not a large amount, but it covers only those relief measures which are provided for people who are incapacitated and does not take into account those other measures extended to Indians; and in the northern and more inaccessible parts of the country the figure would be very much higher than $14.50. That sum does not include cost of farm machinery, seed grain, the purchase of live stock drainage of land, upkeep of roads and bridges and other essentials given to the able-bodied Indians.

For some time past there has been an agitation for a revision of the Indian Act. It has been felt by the present officials, and by my predecessors, that the Indian Act was in need of revision, and I can assure the house that such revisions are under consideration at the present time. I am in hopes that at the next session of parliament I may be able to introduce such a measure. I indicated the procedure that will be followed when addressing that body of Indians last month. They were very anxious for an opportunity to present their views, in order that they might be incorporated in any statute introduced in this house. I gave them the assurance then that when the bill was introduced in the house it would be sent to a committee, and I would see that every Indian organization within the dominion would have an opportunity of presenting to that committee any representations it might care to make in regard to the revision of the act and any provisions it might like to see incorporated therein. As I say, I am hopeful that the bill will be introduced next session, and that is the method I would propose to adopt, because when their submission was made to me it contained so many, such varied and, to me, unknown requests that I thought they would have to be considered from the point of view of an organization rather than from the point of view of myself as minister or the officials of the department. We are familiar with many of these proposals; we have sufficient information, we think, to draft an intelligent bill; but still opportunity must be given the Indians, through their organizations, to make such representations as they desire, and if as a result we can form an organization representative of all the Indians in Canada I think it will be very worth while indeed.
In view of the attitude that has been taken throughout this debate to-day and the evident interest in this matter, an interest of course which has no regard to partisanship or political favours because the Indians do not vote, I would wish that the house might set up a thoroughly representative committee so that, with the combined wisdom of the house, we might endeavour to place upon the statute books an instrument which will assist these people for whom we all desire to do the best we can, an instrument which will be satisfactory not only to the members of this house but also to the Indians themselves.
Recently I have received many communications from both individuals and organizations throughout Canada with regard to the appointment of a royal commission to undertake a survey of Indian affairs. I rather expect that as the days go by this request will become

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more widespread and insistent, but it presents a number of difficulties of which I think the house should be made aware. Indian administration since its inception has been undertaken and carried forward from year to year in close cooperation with the Christian churches. This cooperation still exists in the conduct of our educational institutions and to some extent in the operation of our hospitals. While the welfare of the Indian is the sole responsibility of this government, the arrangement with the churches can be easily understood. They were the pioneers in educational efforts among the Indians and accepted responsibility for the enlightenment and education of the Indian population over a long period of years. For example, an industrial school for Indians was established on the island of Montreal by members of the Sul-pician order as early as 1676, and Bishop Laval established a school at Quebec for French and Indian youth as early as 1684. The records indicate that little interest was taken in the education of Indians by the government prior to confederation. Industrial schools were built by Protestant denominations at Alderville and Muncey, in Ontario, in 1848 and 1851 respectively, and were maintained by missionary contributions and from the annuities of the Indians. It was not until July 19, 1883, that the first industrial schools were established by the government in Manitoba and the Northwest Territories.
I find it difficult to close my eyes to the fact that the appointment of a royal commission with a membership acceptable to Christian denominations engaged in missionary efforts on Indian reserves and in the operation of Indian schools, to the Indians themselves and to the government, keeping in mind the qualifications and experience that the members of such a commission should possess, presents real difficulties. I make this statement with the knowledge that the desirability of creating such a commission has been thoroughly investigated and reviewed by my predecessors in office for a number of years. It is, however, a matter on which I must say to the house I will keep an open mind and on which I will, in due course, make my recommendations to my colleagues. I would not be fair to the house, however, if I sought to create the impression that any difficulties which exist in the administration of Indian affairs are due in whole or even in part to our lack of information as a government on existing conditions among Indians. I am rather convinced that the measure of economy insisted upon by the Canadian taxpayer from 1929 to the outbreak of war; the demands of the war itself; more rigid enforcement on the part of provincial governments
of laws relating to hunting, trapping and fishing, and the gradual encroachment of white citizens into areas where lands, although the property of the provinces, nominally at least had been recognized as exclusive Indian hunting and trapping areas, in the main have contributed to the conditions now confronting us. In any event, the need for a comprehensive welfare programme based on the immediate and future needs of the Indian population is becoming increasingly apparent.
In the government's rehabilitation programme now under review provision has been made for an appropriation exceeding $12,000,000. This money, when voted by parliament, will be used for the construction of Indian hospitals, improved and up-to-date Indian day schools, nursing stations, buildings for the storage of relief and medical supplies, and administration buildings necessary for housing members of. our field staff. Included in this sum will be an item amounting to $2,500,000 for the construction and repair of Indian homes. A start has been made on the construction of such homes in Nova Scotia. Here the Indians of the province- lived, until two or three years ago, on a large number of comparatively small reserves throughout the province. A survey enabled us to see that it would be in the interests of the Indians and would add greatly to effective administration to establish the entire Indian population on two reserves. This has been done, and though the programme has been retarded as a result of the war, a number of Indian homes have been built and one four-room Indian day school has been constructed at Shubenacadie.
When I turn to the resolution moved by the hon. member for Calgary East, I find it somewhat difficult to oppose it in the form in which it has been presented, feeling as I do that its aim and purpose is to bring a measure of relief to old and needy Indians. I should point out that I am thinking at the moment of the administrative difficulties that would immediately confront us. The issuance of monthly cheques may be the best way to help elderly Indians, particularly needy cases, but I must say that I am not wholly convinced that that is the best way to handle it.
The house is aware that in conformity with the provisions of certain existing treaties, annual disbursements are made to Indian bands in Ontario and in the prairie provinces. These disbursements, known as treaty payments, amounted in 1944 to $284,563. In the fiscal year 1927-28 the claims of the Indians of British Columbia for somewhat similar treaty payments were carefully reviewed by a special committee of parliament. That committee, it is worthy of note, did not recom-
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mend the small annual payment of treaty money, but instead recommended that the government of Canada spend $100,000 in excess of its regular estimates on Indian administration for the betterment of conditions among the Indian population of British Columbia. The details of the programme were outlined in the final report. These consisted of expenditures for the promotion of (1) technical education; (2) provision for hospitalization and medical care; (3) promotion of agriculture, stock-raising and fruit - culture, and (4) the development of irrigation projects.
The sum of $100,000 has been voted annually since the report of the committee was adopted for the promotion of this programme. The results, on the whole, appear to be eminently satisfactory, and, in so far as actual benefits to the Indians are concerned, far exceed the beneficial results that have followed or are likely to follow our annual treaty payments.
From what has been said, the members of the house will have observed that the Indians, including the aged Indians, receive many benefits which other citizens of Canada have to pay for. May I recapitulate them: (1) freedom from land and other taxation, except income taxes on earnings off the reserve; (2) free education; (3) free health services, including hospitalization and drugs; (4) free administration of all their lands, timber and other resources; (5) free administration of the estates of deceased Indians-a work which,
I may assure the house, becomes greater and more burdensome as the years go by, and (6) construction, in large part without cost, of improvements on reserves, such as roads, dams, buildings, and the like.
These are benefits which the Indians receive, and which are not given to the white people of Canada.


Douglas Scott Harkness: But are not all those benefits due to the Indians under the treaties Which were signed with them? In other words, they are treaty rights.


James Allison Glen: In part they are treaty rights, and also in the progression of Indian affairs through the years, additions have been made to those benefits. While it may be true that these are received under treaty rights, nevertheless these are betterments which the Indians receive and which are not given to the white people.


Mrs. STRUM:: Has the minister actually ' visited an Indian home on a reservation recently?


James Allison Glen: When the hon, member says "recently", I would reply that I have, and within a year. In my own constituency there is a reservation with which I am quite familiar. [Mr. Glen.J
I have been in their homes, and I have had a meal with them. As a matter of fact I did so during the last election campaign-and they had no votes.
In conclusion may I say that I should like to proceed with the betterment programme the government now has in mind, and with a thorough revision of the Indian Act. My only objection to the hon. member's motion lies in the fact that I would rather the subject matter contained in that motion be not made a decision of the house, committing the government to a policy which may be the subject matter' of investigation by a royal commission, or possibly of a special committee of the house when the. revision of the act takes place. I am in hopes that under either procedure, that is through the appointment of a royal commission, oh through investigation by a special committee of the house appointed for the purpose, all these matters will receive full discussion, and full representations may be made by all. In my view the time at this moment is not ripe for such procedure.'
As I say, my hope and expectation is that in the near future-and I should hope at the next session of parliament-we would have these matters under discussion, at which time this whole question of old age pensions could be one of the features. The hon. member who sponsored the motion, if he is then present, might have the opportunity to make his representations, either to a royal commission or to a special committee.
No matter who may occupy this seat as minister, he will be bound to have that revision of the act, at which time all these matters can be discussed. I can assure the house that, so far as humanly possible, no aged Indian will be allowed to suffer through lack of food, fuel or clothing. While we may disagree on the amount of assistance that should be rendered at this date, or the procedure that should be followed in extending this assistance, we are all deeply interested in the welfare of the original settlers of this country and in their advancement towards clearly defined objectives. These objectives, in my judgment, should be the establishment of the Indian population of this country on a self-supporting basis, and the development of an Indian citizen proud of his origin and cultural heritage, adjusted to the needs and demands of modern life, progressive, resourceful, and self-reliant.


Mr. BRACKEN:: Before the minister takes his seat, I wonder if he would answer a question. Listening to him I gathered that, for certain indigent Indians, the department supplied groceries and other goods to the value of $14.50 per month per individual. Is

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that the actual cost of the goods received by the Indians, or does it cover cost and administration?


James Allison Glen: As I understand it, that is the cost of the goods the Indian receives.
Mr, WILFRID LaCROIX (Quebec-Mont-morency) (Translation):	Mr. Speaker, may
I at the outset sincerely congratulate the hon. member for Calgary East (Mr. Harkness) for having moved this resolution, which reads as follows:
That, in the opinion of this house, the government should take into consideration the amending of the Old Age Pension Act at an early date so as to extend its provisions to the Indians of Canada.
I endorse this resolution wholeheartedly. There is in my constituency a very important group of Hurons, and I may state that they are as intelligent as any member of the House of Commons. They have set up industries which support a part of the population; several of them hold important positions either in business or in industry, and still others have gained recognition in the field of arts, science and letters. Furthermore, I wish to point out to the house that several of those Indians have been on active service overseas and some who belong to the best families of the Huron reserve of Loretteville, have been decorated by His Majesty the King.
Now, Mr. Speaker, you may wonder how it is that a Huron settlement is located so near Quebec city. A while ago, the hon. member for Lake St. John-Roberval (Mr. Dion) explained the various migrations of another tribe of Indians, the Montagnais, since the very beginning of the colony. In his general dictionary on Canada, Reverend Father Lejeune, O.M.I., has this to say about Loretteville:
At the time of Cartier (1535-42), the two settlements of Stadacona and Hochelaga were peopled by the Huron-Iroquois nations: the study of 160 Indian words, collected by the discoverer, supports this assertion. By 1603, when Champlain made his first trip and sailed up the St. Lawrence as far as the Sault, a fierce enmity divided the Hurons and Iroquois; only the Algonquins, allies of the Hurons, still peopled the shores of the river. Champlain embraced their cause.
The expedition he was almost compelled to lead against the Tsonnontouans in 1615, fired the Five Nations with a fierce and unrelenting hatred for the French and their allies. They vented their rage ceaselessly, and once they had found in fire-arms an outlet for their hatred, they used them with audacity and violence after trading with the white man. The Huron population was constantly on the wane because of the ravages of endemic outbreaks ot disease. Further, Champlain, in spite of his foresight and pressing entreaties -was taken in and disarmed by the successive companies: what manpower reinforcements could he guarantee his
allies? His last appeal to Richelieu himself (made- in August 1635) remained unanswered. Once armed, it was clear sailing for the furious Iroquois. In June 1642, they struck a first blow at the settlement of Contarea, "main artery of the Huron country", located 5 miles southeast of Orillia. We know what followed: from 1647 to 1650, the Huron, Petune and Neutral Nations were pillaged, sacked, annihilated almost, except for the small groups that fled afar. Missionaries were tortured, burned at the stake and devoured. (See Brebeuf, Lalemant, Daniel, Gamier.) .	.	. Had the
assembled tribes thought of organizing mass united resistance, the Iroquois would never have bested their combined action. The hour of exile tolled for all surviving groups.
The Recollets were the first to sojourn among the Hurons and their neighbouring tribes; three priests and one brother visited them but, as they lacked all knowledge of the Indian idiom, their efforts were fruitless. From 1615 to 1629, two Jesuits became their collaborators; from 1634 to 1650, these two were the only missionaries for that district. Their main residence was at Ste. Marie du Sault, and from there, they visited the various missions surrounding them. More than 25 priests and an important group of coadjutors, benevolent workers and paid help worked for the conversion and salvation of the Hurons and their allies. The converts were numerous, but the tribes were to be massacred and disbanded for a long time.
At the present, there are three groups who survived the slaughter: the Hurons of Jeune-Lorette, three leagues from Quebec; those of the Sandwich district, in the county of Essex (Ontario); and the Hurons of the Wyandot reservation, in the state of Oklahoma (United States). The first group, numbering about 300, in 1650, took refuge at Sillery, under the guns of fort St. Louis, in the city of Quebec. The following year, they went to the isle of Orleans, on a plot of land ceded to them by Eleonore de Grandmaison, widow of Francois de Chavigny; in 1654, a group of their former tribe, who had taken refuge, first iij Manitoulin island and then in Three Rivers, joined them, raising their numbers to about 600. On May-20, 1656, 40 canoes bearing Agniers Indians launch a suprise attack on their island, capturing or killing 71 of them: this bold attack caused the Huron colony to return to the protection of Quebec city. The following year, from June to August, numerous detachments decide to request shelter from their enemies, while the remainder stay at the Fort des Hurons. In 1660, 40 of the most intrepid among them go to Montreal and join the small expedition of the gallant Dollard des Ormeaux. In April, 1668, the Fort colony transfers to the C6te de Beauport, a league removed from the capital city. The following year, it migrates to^Cbte St. Michel or Notre Dame de Foy. In 1673, new migration to Vieille Lorette; and, finally, in 1697, to Jeune Lorette, their present abode.
These Indians, whose number has greatly been reduced in the last seven years, form in my constituency, a group of people who render great services to the whole community. They make gloves and small industrial products which flow to the Canadian market. I fail to see why-and in this I disagree with the Minister of Mines and Resources (Mr. Old Age Pensions-Indians


Mr. BONA ARSENAULT (Bonaventure):: Mr. Speaker, since 1763, when Canada was ceded to Great Britain, the Indians in this country have been regarded as independent Indian nations under the protection of the crown. In the county of Bonaventure, which I represent iu this chamber, we have two Indian reserves, one in Maria East, and one at Ste. Anne de Restigouche. The total Indian population on these two reserves at the last federal census in 1941 was 871 souls. These Indians are Micmacs, a branch of the Algonkian tribe, whose total population in the eastern part of Canada at the present time is about 4,000 souls. In Bonaventure county, if we refer to the last federal census, we find that the population of Micmac Indians has increased by over forty per cent since 1911. That is a good sign, a healthy sign. It means that the population of Bonaventure county is very kind to them. These Micmac Indians are very industrious, clever, respectful of the law and peaceful. They are first-class fishing guides; they certainly know how to handle a canoe and drown a salmon. They do a lot of fishing in the summer time and hunting throughout the winter. They also

Old Age Pensions-Indians
make fine baskets, which they sell to tourists; they do very little farming. They have their schools and their church. They are good citizens and good Christians. Most of them are almost of pure blood, and they retain most of their primitive characteristics.
At the time of the coming of the white man, it will probably interest the house to know, these tribes of Algonkians and Micmacs occupied all the eastern part of Canada, including Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, the coastal region of New Brunswick, and the Gaspe coast, comprising the present counties of Gaspe, Bonaventure and Matapedia. The name "Micmac" is an Algonkian word which means "allies". As a matter of fact we owe these Micmac Indians many names of places along the Gaspe peninsula and throughout the eastern part of our country. May I recall here to the hon. member for Gaspe (Mr. Langlois) that the word "Gaspe" is a Micmac word which means "the end", "the extremity". But had it not been for the Micmac Indians, when Jacques Cartier landed at Gaspe there would have been nobody there to meet him. They greeted Cartier in 1534 at Gaspe when the French explorer took possession of this country in the name of Christ and the king of France and laid the foundation of a new colony which was to become the cradle of Canadian civilization.
An interesting Castilian legend tells that early explorers in searching for gold wandered along the coast of Gaspe and Bonaventure county in the baie des Chaleurs as far as the mouth of the Restigouche river, where there is an Indian reserve of Micmacs to-day, and, finding no gold, simply wrote on a rock "Aca nada", which meant "there is nothing here."


An hon. MEMBER,:: That means "Gaspe".


Bona Arsenault: These words became so familiar to the Micmac Indians in that part of the country that, when Jacques Cartier landed in Gaspe, supposing him to be of the same race as their previous visitors, they kept repeating "Aca nada", "Aca nada", so much so that Jacques Cartier decided to call this country "Canada".
The early French settlers in Acadia succeeded in winning the friendship of those Algonkian and Micmac Indians to the extent that when Acadia was ceded to Great Britain in 1713, English settlement in the country was impossible on any extensive scale for half a century, and at the time of the dispersion of the Acadians in 1755, thanks to the cooperation of those Indians-who were very likely the paratroopers of those days-many Acadians escaped through the woods of New Brunswick and reached what is to-day called Bonaventure county, where my own ancestors 47696-93
established themselves in 1758. I never could find out exactly what amount of gratitude my ancestors owed to those Indians, but I would not be surprised if those Micmacs and Algonkians helped them to flee from the bad men-I was just going to say, from the Tories -of that time. Therefore I am in favour of the resolution of the hon. member for Calgary East (Mr. Harkness).


Mr. KNOWLES:: Let us vote on it, then.


Bona Arsenault: All right; just give me one minute.


Mr. CASSELMAN:: And then somebody
else will start.


Bona Arsenault: I am strongly in
favour of the resolution, and I desire that a vote be taken before six o'clock, so that I shall not be long. I am in favour of its providing, of course, that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley) can find his way clear to making the necessary financial provision, and that the members of the upper house do not raise any objections. To show the interest which we on this side of the house have not only in the Micmac Indians but in the Indians generally throughout Canada, if I were to speak in Indian in support of this resolution I would use words which would be translated thus: "Great Chief in heaven, very thankful to white man from Calgary-East."


Mr. J. A. BRADETTE (Cochrane):: Mr. Speaker, I shall ask the indulgence of the house for only a few moments, as I feel that it is my implicit duty to speak on this resolution. I do not believe I can be accused of being an obstructionist; my records of twenty years will bear out that statement. I have been here for many, many years, and I believe that I should be the last member to seek to obstruct any measure or resolution, even that of a private member. Indeed I should have liked to have seen a full day's discussion on Indian affairs.


Douglas Scott Harkness: The debate is on old age pensions, not on Indian affairs generally.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: The hon. member will find that on private members day we have leeway to discuss a question from all the angles and we deal with old age pension for the Indians. I repeat that I have no intention of being an obstructionist or of detaining the house, but it has been almost impossible for me hitherto to put forward the problems pertaining to my own section of northern Ontario for nearly three years.
I have there what we call Moose Factory and Moosonee. These are historic names, connected as they are with the history of such

Old Age Pensions-Indians

firms as Hudson's Bay company and Revillon Freres. In my constituency are areas where hundreds, indeed thousands of Indians are living at the present time. To say that I am absolutely satisfied with all that has been done for the Indians would not be truthful, but Canada has done better for its Indian population than some other countries have done for theirs, because some other countries ^ have stated in the past that a good Indian is the one who is six feet under ground. To our honour and good name we have never acted on that principle in this country. You have only to read the history of French-speaking and English-speaking Canada to realize how much we have tried, through our missionaries as well as through our own European or American civilization, to improve the lot of the Indian, although we still have a long way to go yet on that score.
I am glad that the hon. member for Calgary East saw fit to introduce this resolution and I am satisfied that he is fully protected by the statement made by the Minister of Mines and Resources (Mr. Glen), who spoke so force-, fully and sympathetically of the problems relating to our Indians. He said that he was not one hundred per cent satisfied with all that had been done, and he intends that more will be accomplished. Speaking of my own section of the country, I have had some experience among the Indians themselves. It has never been found possible to properly try agriculture among the Indians; that is what we have been told. Whether that is due to climatic conditions or to other circumstances, the fact is that we have never -really tried to make farmers out of Indians. In my opinion that was a glaring error. Take some of the lands around Lowbush, Cochrane, Mattice- I do not mention Moose Factory or Moosonee. These lands are eminently suited to agriculture, and in this connection I would quote the words of a late lamented bishop of the Anglican church, Bishop Anderson, whose see was in the town of Cochrane and in whose veins, I believe, there flowed some Indian blood. He was wrapped up in his work among the Indians; and what marvellous work he did among them. He called them his Indians, and he told me on several occasions that, while it might have been all right at one time to leave the Indians to their happy hunting grounds, times had changed, and that in his opinion, it should be found feasible now, not only in Ontario but throughout Canada, to make real farmers and craftsmen of our Indians. He struck me as being sincerely convinced of this possibility.
In our section of the country, it would seem, the moment we settled northern

Ontario after the construction of the Canadian National railway line from Quebec to Winnipeg, the coming of the white people among the Indians proved, not a blessing, but to some extent a curse to those people. I say that deliberately and with some knowledge of what happened.
This is neither the time nor the place to criticize the actions of people in the past, but speaking of the hunting ground of the Indians, I maintain that any provincial government-and this should apply just as well to the northwest territories-should preserve a strict line of demarcation between the domain of the Indians and the territory operated by white trappers. That line of demarcation should be well defined; otherwise, the mo'ment the - white trappers come in, where Indians have been hunting for generations and for centuries, their tendency is to destroy the natural habitat of the Indian.
In my section of the countiy the experience has been that the moment white trappers came among the Indians there was a conflict, where there was no disharmony beforej while the Indians were left alone. I must commend the' Ontario government, through its protective department of lands and forests, for having in the last six years created a great reserve north of the Canadian National, between that line and James -bay basin, taking in some 25,000 square miles* where at present fur-bearing animals such as beaver, otter and mink are being raised and cultivated. If there is one wish I would express this afternoon it is that the provincial government would see to it that ninety per cent, or at least eighty per cent of that territory is kept as a reserve for Indian trappers.
I have seen many sad things happen in Moose Factory and Moosonee section and west of the town of Hearst on the Canadian National transcontinental line, from Hearst to Winnipeg. With the advent of white trappers to the trapping grounds of the Indians discord appeared. There was friction and fighting and sometimes bloodshed. Although some of these things have not been put on the official record, I speak feelingly of them now and I know the minister will do his best to improve matters.
As has been well said this afternoon, the Indians are, after all, the first citizens of Canada. The -record of our dealings with [DOT]them in the past has not always been admirable, but at any rate it will bear comparison with any other nation's treatment of similar inhabitants. This House of Commons has jurisdiction over our Indians, and it is the duty of parliament to do everything possible for that population. I have not the statis-

Business oj the House
tics before me at the .moment, but I believe that the Indians in war number one, my section, as well as those in war number two, enlisted in such numbers that the ratio to their population is as large as that in any other section of the country. May I say this to hon. members. If I thought for one moment that the passing of this resolution, which I have no doubt will cariy unanimously, would help to improve the lot of the Indians I would sit down at once, but at the same time I submit that I have a right to put forward my views before this national forum and to say what has happened in my own section of the country. If I thought that the Minister of Mines and Resources had not in mind the immediate implementing of all that he said this afternoon I would not speak now. But I do not think anyone will seriously doubt the sincerity of a man who speaks as earnestly as I am speaking now, for the good reason [DOT]that I know what happened in some sections of my own constituency, and who want to see their lot improved.
I know of incidents that have been deplorable. Indians have occupied a certain piece of land for a number of years, and they have a right to be protected no matter how filthy some people might think them or how badly kept that land may be. I remember what happened in Mattice. There was a proposal to move the Indian tribe from that district along the Canadian National line and bring them to the southern part of the country on the Canadian Pacific railway, but these people came to me and implored me to plead with the "great white chief" to let them remain where their ancestors had been buried along the river that passes through Mattice. The government is fully aware of these facts.
I have had access to the Indian department in Ottawa time and again; I have seen the officials in my own section of the country, and from my experience I would say that if you put your case before the proper authorities with sincerity and knowledge you are sure to have a solution in the near future.
I have no time now to discuss other questions, but before I conclude I hope it will be found possible in the estimates of the department to build a hospital, not on the shores of James bay but at Cochrane on the Ontario side, where the Indians in northern Ontario among whom I have lived so many years, will find it possible to secure proper accommodation, which they have not at the moment. I sincerely express that hope and I know that 47696-93i
the minister will do all that he can to make it a realization. Nothing short of that will satisfy the country.
Before taking my seat I wish to thank hon. members for allowing me to speak on this subject. The situation is not a pleasant one on account of the lateness of the hour. I see some hon. members smiling, but I do not think anyone will doubt me when I say that I have worked and suffered for these people. I have gone to the police magistrate to fight their case, charging them nothing, but exerting myself doing all that I possibly could on, their behalf to find a solution for their problems. That is why I have made this statement to our national forum, and I will again take the opportunity to speak for our Indians when the proper estimates are before the committee.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Question.


Mr. SPEAKER:: It is now six o'clock.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Mr. ILSLEY:: The first order of business to-morrow will be the'bill of the Minister of Reconstruction, which I believe is No. 25 on the order paper. It is a bill that has been under discussion in the last day or two, the act to amend the Trans-Canada Air Lines Act of 1937. I understand that will be finished in a very few minutes, perhaps half an hour at the most. If not I am afraid we shall have to move the adjournment of that debate, because it is extremely important that tomorrow I move in committee of the whole resolution No. 21 standing in my name, in. reference to the incorporation of a central mortgage and housing corporation, and that resolution will be proceeded with to-morrow afternoon.


John Bracken: There is no motion to adjourn the house, but since the acting leader of the government has been permitted to say a word perhaps I might be allowed to make an observation. The minister spoke to me last night about this matter. I realize the government has the responsibility of determining the programme to be followed by parliament; the rest of us, being in the minority, necessarily accept that programme. The minister has satisfied me that the measure he is bringing forward to-morrow is pressing, but I just want to say that there is a major measure which has been before parliament for a month, the most important business proposal before parliament, and not a single item of any of those estimates has been passed. I have discussed the matter on several occasions with
Business of the House

the acting leader of the government and he has undertaken to see that this measure would be given right of way. Since then, however, other measures have been brought forward. We had the food and agriculture organization resolution, the united nations resolution, the measure moved by the Minister of Reconstruction the other day, and now this.
I do wish to protest against the treatment this important measure is receiving from parliament. We have a proposed expenditure of $5,000 million; seven months of the year have passed, and that proportion of the estimates have been voted; probably most of the money has been spent, and I expect that soon the government will be coming forward again to ask for another interim supply bill. I think they should realize the position in which this puts members of the house, because no doubt shortly there will be a rush to terminate the business of this session of parliament, and these important measures will be put through without adequate consideration. ' The government do not require our .approval of their plans to carry on, and I assured the Minister of Finance yesterday that we would not stand in the way of his proposals; but I also explained to him that we would have to protest that this other measure is not receiving the consideration it should be given bjr this parliament.


James Lorimer Ilsley: I should like to modify what I said to this extent, that I may take up the housing resolution first to-morrow rather than have the measure of the Minister of Reconstruction taken up first. I should like to leave the government that option. Then, after moving that resolution, I would be prepared to go right back to the war appropriation. I understand the importance of getting ahead with those estimates. In other years we have discussed the war appropriation measure for four, five or six weeks, and as a result a large mass of legislation was brought forward towards the end of the session, bringing upon us severe criticism for having followed that course. The government cannot do everything. It is not derelict; it is ready with its business, but we just have to take the most important business first. I would not be putting forward this housing resolution to-morrow unless it were urgent; but if it meets the wishes of the house once I have moved that resolution we can move the adjournment of the debate and go right on with the war appropriation. Of course this suggestion may not be acceptable to hon. members, either; they may wish to debate the housing resolution.


John Bracken: I think if the minister makes a statement to-morrow in support of his legislation, hon. members should be given the right to say something in reply.


James Lorimer Ilsley: That is right.


Mr. COLDWELL:: Could not the whips of the parties get together and try to eliminate the constant repetition of questions? During the past few days we have had so much repetition of the same questions and the same statements that we may not get through the business of the house at all. It seems to me an attempt should be made to see that a certain line of questioning is pursued by a certain member to a conclusive point, and then have done with it; get all the information we can and then have someone start on some other questions. As a matter of fact that is the way we are trying to organize our work. If we could all do that, I think we would accelerate and facilitate the business of this house. There is so much repetition that it makes it bad for all of us. I am referring to plans for the further discussion of the war estimates, of course.


[Stage Direction]
It being eight minutes after six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Thursday, October 25, 1945.