1945-12-11

[Stage Direction]
Fifth report of the standing committee on banking and commerce.-Mr. Cleaver.
Mr. HUGHES CLEAVER (Halton) presented the sixth report of the standing committee on banking and commerce, and moved that the report be concurred in.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. SOLON E. LOW (Peace River): Mr. Speaker, before the orders of the day are called I should like to rise to a question of
Maple Products
[Stage Direction]
privilege. I hold in my hand a oo-py of the Ottawa Citizen for this morning, December 11, on the front page of which appears an article written by Torchy Anderson, Citizen parliamentary writer. This article is headed "Leader S. Low Seems Facing Party 'Revolt' ", and goes on to say:
Following last night's abortive effort to advance legislation by which Canada would participate in Bretton Woods financial undertakings, corridor rumour had it that Solon Low, Social Credit Leader, faced something of * revolt within the ranks of his party. It was said that as late as yesterday afternoon Mr. Low had assured other leaders that the first stage of the debate could be finished.
My point of privilege is this: In the first place, Solon Low does not face any threat of party revolt. I endorse completely the action that was taken by hon. members who were speaking, asking questions and tiying to get information here until eleven o'clock last night. I repeat that I endorse that completely.
Secondly, I did not at any time give any undertaking to anybody that the debate could be finished. I have repeatedly assured the leaders of other groups that I would do my best to see that the business of the house was advanced-and I am doing my best. But at the same time I am trying to do my best for the people of this country. And I want it definitely known that the writer of this article is -trying has level best to read something into the actions of this group that he has no right to read into them.
Furthermore, when anybody in any article of this kind tries to impress upon the public that the Social Credit group is engaged in a filibuster for the assured purpose of blocking the business of this house, that is not true. I wish it definitely known that thus far this group has questioned only six out of the twenty-six articles in the Bretton Woods agreement, and there are hundreds of questions remaining that could be asked with respect to it.


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Monday, December 10, consideration in committee of bill No. 232, respecting the manufacturing, inspection and sale of maple products-Mr. Gardiner-Mr. Golding in the chair.
Sections 1 to 10 inclusive agreed to.
On section 11-Use of licence number restricted.
/
Mr. HAZEN:: How are licences issued under this section? Where is it provided that a licence shall be issued?


Mr. GARDINER:: Subsection 6 of section
10 reads:
Every manufacturing or packing plant and every sugar camp shall, when licensed, be assigned a licence number for use on labels and containers of maple products.
Then subsection 1 of section 10 reads:
All manufacturing or packing plants shall apply to the Department of Agriculture at Ottawa for registration.
And subsection 2:	[DOT]
Any manufacturing or packing plant shipping maple products from one province to another dr exporting such products shall obtain a licence from the minister.
And subsection 3:
Such licence shall remain in effect until the 31st day of March following the date of issue-
Section 10 provides for the issuing of the licences, and then section 10 provides that any person who unlawfully places, or causes to be placed, any number purporting to be a licence number issued to him under this act and regulation on any label shall be liable to a punishment.


Douglas King Hazen: Have, any fees for licences been fixed?


James Garfield Gardiner: Section 18 covers 'that.


Mr. SENN:: Subsection 4 of section 10 reads:
Any sugar camp from which maple products are exported or shipped to another province may be required by the minister to obtain a licence which shall be issued without fee.


Mark Cecil Senn: There are a lot of sugar camps which put up their product in cans or in other saleable form which goes into the trade. The owner of the sugar camp would not know whether that eventually goes into another province. Would he be liable if he had not a licence and the product went into another province through the trade?


James Garfield Gardiner: He would be liable if he himself shipped it. It refers to manufacturing or packing plants. Those who are handling the product must comply with the act. Any person, whether he is the original producer or a packer or in business, who ships out of the province without a licence, is liable to a fine.


Mark Cecil Senn: Would the owner of a small
sugar camp with perhaps five or six hundred trees be liable?


James Garfield Gardiner: If he exports.


Mark Cecil Senn: He would not be liable if his product went into the trade and then into another province?


James Garfield Gardiner: Not if he did not export it himself.

,___________Bretton Woods Agreements


Douglas King Hazen: Were these amendments taken up with the sugar producers in the different provinces?


James Garfield Gardiner: They would be discussed with the sugar producers in the different provinces. I may say that the gentleman who piloted the bill through the senate, where it was before it came here, is a sugar producer in the province of Quebec. This bill was discussed fully by those who are concerned with it.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 12 to 19 inclusive agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


Hon. IAN MACKENZIE:: (Minister of
Veterans Affairs) moved the second reading of and concurrence in amendments made by the senate to bill 176, to amend the War Service Grants Act.
He said: These amendments are purely typographical in character and will be found on page 445 of Votes and Proceedings. The hon. member for Royal has gone through them and is satisfied that there is no change in principle. I move that they be concurred . in.
Motion agreed to; amendments read the second time and concurred in.



BRETTON WOODS AGREEMENTS


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Monday, December 10, consideration in committee of the following resolution-Mr. Ilsley-Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair:
That it is expedient to present a measure to grant authority to accept on behalf of Canada and to carry out the obligations of Canada under the articles of agreement for an international monetary fund and an international bank for reconstruction and development prepared by the united nations monetary and financial conference held at Bretton Woods in July, 1944; to authorize the payment of the subscriptions required from Canada out of unappropriated moneys in the consolidated revenue fund to an amount not exceeding seven hundred million dollars; and to authorize the borrowing under the provisions of the Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act, 1931, of sums not exceeding seven hundred million dollars.
Mr. QUELCH:: Mr. Chairman, I am sure
that all hon. members hope to be clear of the woods before long. I come from the prairies and quite frankly I admit that I shall be glad to get out of the woods and back to the prairies. It has been suggested that we have been trying to obstruct this measure, but I would point out that if we were we could quite easily do it until the new year. We have raised questions on only about six articles, and there are thirty-one. We could ask questions on every single one of those articles, and then in addition there are the schedules. It cannot be said that we have received answers to all the questions that we have asked at this stage. When we are in the committee on banking and commerce we will be justified in asking for an explanation of every subsection of every section of every article; that is, a full explanation of just exactly what those sections and articles mean.
Just before eleven o'clock last night I was asking the minister if he would explain what section 4 article VIII means. I will read it to him so that he can get the purport of my question.
Section 4, article VIII reads:
Each member shall buy balances of its currency held by another member if the latter, in requesting the purchase, represents
(i)	that the balances to be bought have been recently acquired as the result of current transactions; or
(ii)	that their conversion is needed for making payments for current transactions.
This is the point. It goes on:
The buying member shall have the option to pay either in the currency of the member making the request or in gold.
If a nation had an unfavourable balance of trade it would not be able to pay in the currency of the other member nation and it must buy its own currency in gold. Where does it get the gold to buy that currency?


Mr. ILSLEY:: Would the hon. member go on with something else until I get that worked out? It is a complicated question.


Victor Quelch: I asked the minister yesterday afternoon this question:	Suppose the
fund has opened its doors for business, what difference would it make in the operation of the business of a country? Will it necessitate a gold basis or gold reserve? Would the minister say no?


James Lorimer Ilsley: That is right.


Victor Quelch: There is no question that it means that every nation will have to have a, gold reserve^ because it is compelled to buy
Bretton Woods Agreements

its own currency; therefore every nation must set up a gold reserve. Where are they going to get the gold if they have not got it?


James Lorimer Ilsley: Where is there anything to say they have to pay in gold?	[DOT]


Victor Quelch: In section 4 of article VIII, which I have just read. It says:
The buying member shall have the option to pay either in the currency of the member making the request or in gold.
How can it get the currency of the member making the request except by trading with that nation, and if that nation refuses to buy
its goods it cannot get its currency and therefore it has to get gold.


James Lorimer Ilsley: It would get the other nation's currency from the fund.


Victor Quelch: If its quota is exhausted it cannot get it from the fund.


James Lorimer Ilsley: If it has exhausted its quota in the fund it does not have to do this.


Victor Quelch: Section 8 of article V deals with the question of a nation having exhausted its quota, in which case it cannot borrow any more from the fund. The nations that have its currency begin to get scared and they want to get rid of that nation's currency, and they demand payment, and the only way in which it could pay would be in gold.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Is not the answer found in section 4(v) of article VIII?


Victor Quelch: That is different.


James Lorimer Ilsley: That is what the hon. gentleman is talking about-convertibility of foreign balances.


Victor Quelch: You still have the difficulty that under section 8 of article V, when a member nation can no longer use the resources of the fund, it has to have gold. In view of the fact that there are several clauses in the articles of the fund requiring gold I think the minister will admit that for the successful operation of the fund each member must carry a reserve of gold.


James Lorimer Ilsley: No, I do not admit that.


Victor Quelch: The minister will remember that when I started I said that I would try to prove that this was not merely a form of the old gold standard but that in many respects it was worse, and I will refer to the various reasons why I made that charge.
But first of all let me point out that no doubt the intention of the scheme is to try to provide for a redistribution of the large amount of gold that is held by the United States. I think the minister will agree with

that. A large amount of that gold will be made available to the various nations of the world. If the minister says no to that, we can only wait and see whether that is done, but I am satisfied that that is what will happen. There is no question that this fund will give the United States a very great power in the world, and its voting power will steadily expand, as its sales of currency increase and the voting power of other nations will decrease as they purchase United States currency. That is provided in the voting powers, so the ' United States will have a certain power when the fund comes into operation, and everything points to the fact that as time goes on that voting power will increase. If the United States had given an example to the world of how a country might be run on model lines, there might be some justification for suggesting that the United States should have greater power in the world to-day. But when we look back upon the record of the United States in between the two wars and remember the great amount of racketeering that took place therein, the extreme poverty which existed in many areas of the United States, especially among the sharecroppers-I think we shall have to admit that as an example-the United States cannot be the model upon which the whole world should be built. Until a nation has demonstrated to the world that it has set its own house in order and has shown how good conditions may be made available to all classes of its people, it can hardly contend that it is in a position to say how the world should be run.
As I pointed out to the minister when I first spoke in the committee stage, this is definitely a form of the gold standard, and in many ways worse. I should like to draw the minister's attention to these facts: article VII, subparagraph (ii) of section 2, provides that a nation, on demand by the fund, must buy gold when its currency is scarce, and that a nation, on demand by a nation holding its currency, must be prepared to sell gold-that is when currency is surplus. I say this is worse than the ordinary gold standard, for this reason. Severe penalties are imposed on nations when they get into a position where they have exceeded their quota and can no longer draw from the fund, i,vhen they have exceeded their right of drawing currency from the fund, and when their rat,e of interest has gone up to five per cent; and if a nation withdraws from the fund the other nations are pledged to discriminate to a certain extent against that nation. As to the extent to which they would discriminate, it is impossible to say; it will all depend on the conditions that exist at that time.

Bretton Woods Agreements


James Lorimer Ilsley: That is incorrect. There is no obligation to discriminate against that nation.


Victor Quelch: It says that the members must not trade, on conditions other than the fund permits.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Well, they shall not use that nation as-


Victor Quelch: Contrary to the purpose
of the fund; if a withdrawing nation is operating contrary to the fund they cannot trade with it.


James Lorimer Ilsley: That certainly is not so.


Victor Quelch: It certainly is so. The
words "contrary to the fund" are there. If you want me to, I will read the whole thing again.


James Lorimer Ilsley: But it will not lead to
that conclusion, and it does not lead to discrimination.


Victor Quelch: It cannot mean anything
else. Perhaps I had better read article XI;
Section 1. Each member undertakes:
(i)	Not to engage in nor to permit any of its fiscal agencies referred to in article V, section 1, to engage in, any transactions with a non-member or with persons in a non-member's territories which would be contrary to the provisions of this agreement or the purposes of the fund;
(ii)	Not to cooperate with a non-member or
with persons in a non-member's territories in practices which would be contrary to the provisions of this agreement or the purposes of the fund; and	-
(iii)	To cooperate with the fund with a view to the application in its territories of appropriate measures to prevent transactions with nonmembers or with persons in their territories which would be contrary to the provisions of this agreement or the purposes of the fund.
If the nation which has withdrawn has devaluated its currency without the right allowed by the fund, surely the action is contrary to the fund, and the nations will not trade with it, otherwise they would be trading in a currency which has been devaluated contrary to the intentions of the fund.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Wait a minute. Is not
my hon. friend misreading that section entirely?


Victor Quelch: I don't think so.


James Lorimer Ilsley: It is such a strained interpretation.


Victor Quelch: A "strained"-?


James Lorimer Ilsley: A strained-yes-and an
improper interpretation. This is the way he is reading the section: "Each member undertakes not to engage in nor to permit any of its fiscal agencies referred to in article V, section 1, to engage in any transactions with a non-member or with persons in a nonmember's territories which would be contrary to the provisions of this agreement or the purposes of the fund." He is reading it as if it means that the engaging in transactions would be contrary to the provisions of this agreement or the purposes of the fund, and that there is a provision against engaging in any transactions with a non-member or with persons in a non-member's territories. Now, that is not the true interpretation or construction of the section. The true interpre-ation is that a member is not to engage in transactions which would be contrary to the provisions of the agreement or the purposes of the fund. That is to say, if a country leaves the fund, the countries which belong to the fund have to carry on their original agreement with the fund and not engage in transactions with the member which would be contrary to the provisions of the agreement and the purposes of the fund. The people who stay in are not to use the member country that absents itself as a means of frustrating the purposes of the fund. It is simply a sort of avoidance of what might be called black market operations, contrary to the agreement which the party enters into. That is the true interpretation of the section. The "which" applies to transactions; it does not apply to engaging in transactions with the member.


Victor Quelch: Well, of course a great
deal rests on what the purpose of the fund is. But the fund considers it necessary to prevent a member from devaluating its currency, to maintain stabilization of exchange rates. Then surely it is obvious that, if a member is expelled from the fund because it devalues its currency, does not stabilize its rates of exchange, and if other members continue to trade with that member, they are helping to defeat the purpose of the fund.


James Lorimer Ilsley: No, no.


Victor Quelch: The minister can say "no, no". He can say that black is white, but that does not make it white.


Mr. JAQUES:: That is why you want an international police force.


Victor Quelch: The other reason why I say that this condition is considerably worse than the gold standard is that the gold standard never provided for the setting up of an international authority which had powers in
Bretton Woods Agreements

excess of any powers of government, of any court of law, even apparently the international court of justice.	.


James Lorimer Ilsley: What powers? They have not very many powers. The powers are extremely limited.


Mr. BLACKMORE:: Every power on earth.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Not at all.


Victor Quelch: I think you will find they have very great powers. When you remember how it was possible for the little mission that went to Australia in 1930 to compel that government to balance its budget and curtail its social services, merely through their monetary technique, if they could do it in those days, imagine what they can do under a set-up of this kind.
I think I have fully justified my argument when I say not only is it a form of the gold standard but in many respects it is infinitely worse.


John Horne Blackmore: Just to show how serious is the contention which the hon. member for Acadia is making, let me read the purposes of the fund. Where the trouble lies in this whole argument is that the people who are supporting this measure have never taken the trouble to interpret accurately the statements which are made in the various parts of the final act or to weigh the implications of the powers and stipulations which are found therein. As soon as they do they will realize how serious the situation is. Let me read the purposes of the fund and show how these would work out in the practical management of a nation, say under the present set-up we have in Canada:
The purposes of the international monetary fund are:
(i) To promote international monetary cooperation through a permanent institution which provides the machinery for consultation and collaboration on international monetary problems.
' Let me stop there and ask the minister this question. Suppose now that 'the very devices are .employed which are being used in Canada, or were used in the war, to bring down the cost of production of, we will say, any ordinary commodity. Let us suppose it is automobiles, or trucks, or anything of the kind; we know that the government has subsidized or relieved from tariff restrictions or in so^ne way aided manufacturers to get raw materials at a lower rate. Assume this kind of thing is done with the object of bringing down the cost of a particular commodity which is manufactured
[Mr. Quelch.J
in the country, thus enabling that commodity to be sold at a lower price than the corresponding commodity in another state.


James Lorimer Ilsley: To be sold in Canada at a lower price?


John Horne Blackmore: Either in Canada or outside. Or suppose it is just inside Canada. Bringing down the price of that commodity affects the value of the Canadian dollar, does it not?-because the lower the price of the commodity offered, the higher the value of the Canadian dollar, just as correspondingly the higher the price of goods the lower the value of the Canadian dollar. That simple device, which I think every member in this committee will recognize as a thoroughly legitimate one, could be interpreted as being contrary to this first purpose of the fund, because it would be said that there is no international monetary cooperation. Suppose Canada used her tremendous resources and began to use debt-free money, the possibilities of which I do not think the minister has even canvassed. Suppose she began to use debt-free money to subsidize the price of manufactured goods, bringing it down so as to produce price parity. She would certainly raise the value of the Canadian dollar, and that could be condemned by any body of people who were opposed to that idea as contrary to the purposes of number one, and the only absolute authority that could sit in judgment on that dispute would be the fund itself.


James Lorimer Ilsley: They have no power to do anything about it.


John Horne Blackmore: Then what is all this agreement for, if they have no power to do something? What is the whole act for, if it does not give power to the fund to do something?


James Lorimer Ilsley: The hon. gentleman cannot find in the act any provision giving the fund power to do something about the situation he has suggested, and that situation would not be contrary to number one, the object of which is to promote international monetary cooperation through a permanent institution which provides jhe machinery for consultation and collaboration on international monetary problems. That, has nothing to do with the internal subsidy policy of a government.


John Horne Blackmore: Does the minister think that it has nothing at all to do with internal price structure?


James Lorimer Ilsley: No. There is no power there to do anything to prevent a government from subsidizing prices down.

________________Bretton Woods Agreements


John Horne Blackmore: The minister will be
astonished to find that there is power to do that.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Where is it?


John Horne Blackmore: I have just raised the question, and I am not prepared at the moment to argue it because I do not wish just now to revert to the particular passages of the act.


James Lorimer Ilsley: The hon. gentleman cannot find it and cannot cite it, and I say it is not there.


John Horne Blackmore: I say it is there.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Let us have it, then.


John Horne Blackmore: I have some good authorities who say it is, but I am not prepared to press it at the moment because I do not intend to deal with this aspect.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Hon. mepabers will appreciate some of my difficulties when my hon. friend complains about my failure to answer questions. He is a specialist, self-confessed, on this subject, having studied it for the past several months, and he cannot answer that question. Where is the power to prevent subsidizing prices down?


John Horne Blackmore: Now take number two.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


John Horne Blackmore: Some members would like me to come back later on with the proof. If so, I will do it. '


An hon. MEMBER:: We shall be surprised.


John Horne Blackmore: Yes, you will. Now take number two:
To facilitate the expansion and balanced growth of international trade, and to contribute thereby to the promotion and maintenance of high levels of employment and real income and to the development of the productive resources of all members as primary objectives of economic policy.
Would anyone argue that bringing down the price level of manufactured goods in Canada could not be interpreted as a measure militating against the development of balanced trade among the nations? Suppose we take Japan as an illustration. I used that illustration last night. She brings down her price level, thereby putting her goods into the world's market and displacing the goods of other nations and in turn their industries, putting their people out of employment. Would that be contrary to the second purpose of the fund? I do not know how you could get something more contrary to the fund, if you had a device by which one nation was taking the whole of the manufacturing business
of the world, as Japan was threatening to do, and as she would have done had she not been prevented by rigid quotas. Surely that would be interfering with the balanced growth of international trade. No other interpretation could be placed upon it, and if the fund has not the power to prevent such a thing the fund is not worth having.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Well, there are other ways in which it can operate, and they are spelled out.


John Horne Blackmore: Take the third
purpose of the fund:	-
To promote exchange stability, to maintain orderly exchange arrangements among members, and to avoid competitive exchange depreciation.
This is the provision with regard to which there has been the most discussion. Then take the next three:
To assist in the establishment of a multilateral system of payments in respect of current transactions between members and in the elimination of foreign exchange restrictions which hamper the growth of world trade.
To give confidence to members by making the fund's resources available to them under adequate safeguards, thus providing them with opportunity to correct maladjustments in their balance of payments without resorting to measures destructive of national or international prosperity.
In accordance with the above, to shorten the duration and lessen the degree of disequilibrium in the international balances of payments of members.
Number six is practically an omnibus purpose; for under it anything could be condemned to which any nation could resort. In order to realize how serious this might be, all one has to do is to recall what was done with regard to Alberta legislation some years ago when the supreme court began to work upon it. The supreme court managed to destroy provincial autonomy completely, destroying the province's power over property and civil rights, since it declared ultra vires acts passed by the province with respect do property and civil rights. All that anyone needs to do is to go back over the record of the decisions of the court on matters respecting which the provinces have legislated over the last twenty-five years to see the wide range of possibilities which this measure before us opens up for any fund, or any judicial body acting on behalf of a fund, in dealing with situations that may arise in the world. That is where the difficulty will present itself-in the broad, general meaning of these terms.
Now, Mr. Chairman, I said yesterday that I felt it was the duty of this group to ask questions in order to elicit information which would enable the house to form a sound judg-
Bretton Woods Agreements

ment with respect to this bill. At that time I felt it was our duty to ask many questions, and I still do. I feel that this is the committee in which those questions should be asked. But during the last twenty-four hours certain things have taken place which have led me to feel that I was not quite such a free agent in the matter as I had been before. I therefore believe that possibly the wise thing to do, so far as I am concerned, is to defer further questioning until we get into some other division of parliament where we can continue the consideration of this bill.


Norman Jaques: I was one of those who had been accused of a filibuster. I am one of those whose intentions have been questioned and I just wish to say two or three words.


Mr. GIBSON (Comox-Alberni):: Can we count on that?


Norman Jaques: My whole purpose in the stand I have taken can be put in very few words.


John Lambert Gibson: But you won't.


Norman Jaques: It is obvious that a majority in this house believe entirely in the fetish of foreign trade and the worship of gold. For these two things they are prepared to surrender the sovereignty of their country; I am not. That may be the difference between us. To my mind anybody who works for and advocates the surrender of the sovereignty of this country is guilty of treason. To my mind it does not make any difference what reason may be advanced for so doing. We have an example of that right now in Mr. Amery. I believe he was an honest man. He believed that the reasons he advanced for the actions he took were good reasons, and that what he did would be to the advantage of his country and of the world. Unfortunately for Mr. Amery he backed the loser, and now he has to pay the penalty. That is the only difference between us. The reason I have taken this stand is that beyond question we have established that Bretton Woods means the return of the gold standard; it means that our national prosperity is to be controlled by foreign trade, and that any foreign trade will be controlled by the gold standard. It means a surrender of the sovereignty of this country. That is the reason why I am opposed to it, and the reason why I shall continue to be opposed to it.


Mr. LOW:: 
Mr. BRACKEN:: I am not rising to discuss the merits of this resolution, but rather to say just a brief word or two with respect to the situation in which the committee finds itself at this time. It is now several days since' the resolution was passed , by the house and consideration of it begun in committee of the whole. Since that time we have had a long and sometimes interesting discussion in the committee. What I shall say I had planned to say before I knew what the hon. member for Peace River was going to say. I want to commend him for his action in the last few minutes. Up to that time the question before us was how much longer it would be wise for us to remain in committee of the whole discussing this subject. In this connection let me refer to two, matters which have been referred to by others in this house. There was a conference of leaders of different parties in this house a few days ago. It was suggesteid last night that it was there agreed that we would endeavour to get through the work of the session this week. That is true.
I want to say, however, with respect to the attitude of the Social Credit group, that the leader of that group did point out that one of the measures on which his associates would want to make a strong protest was the measure which is now before us. He specifically excepted that measure from any effort unduly to hurry up the work of the house.
Speaking for myself, and I think for many others in the house, I want to say that the discussion we have heard, led chiefly by the members of the Social Credit group, has been characterized by sincerity. It has all the evidence of thorough study. On their part I think a good deal of merit has been shown in the arguments they have brought forward. Having said that, I wish to say, one other thing. The Social Credit group has made its protest. There is no question that its members feel strongly on this subject. The protest has been well made. During more than two decades in another assembly in another part of Canada I have seen protests of this kind on several different occasions, and I do not remember one that was characterized by more sincerity or more evidence of study on the part of the group making it. Personally I want to commend the Social Credit members for presenting the other side of the story of the Bretton Woods measure.
It is obvious that the government wishes the measure to pass at this session; it is evident it is not disposed to postpone it. We supported the government on this resolution. .
While the arguments advanced by the Social Credit group have impressed us, they have not changed our minds. We still think that the balance of argument is in favour of the measure, in so far as its application to Canada is concerned.
Having said that, I again wish to commend the leader of the Social Credit group for not pressing this matter to the point where some arbitrary action on the part of the government would have to be taken. They have made a good case. It has impressed us all. They will have further opportunities to present their views. Their present action having been taken, we can now look forward to finding it possible to conclude our work this week.


Mr. COLDWELL:: I believe the proper
procedure has been followed, and wish it had been followed earlier-that of sending this matter to the committee on banking and commerce. There are many hon. members who have questions which remain unanswered. As I have always said, this committee is not the right atmosphere or the kind of place in which we can get the answers to the questions we desire to ask.
I too am grateful that the discussion has reached the stage where the bill to be introduced will be sent to the committee on banking and commerce. There the good features of the measure, as well as those of which we are not so sure, can be discussed. It seems to me this is a question upon which members of the house will have to decide on balance. I do not think all will agree with everything contained in these long schedules. To do so would seem impossible. But I do believe that we must appraise this measure, both in committee and when it returns to the house, with balanced judgment. How much is good and how much is not so good? If the good outweighs that which we consider not so good, then the house should support the agreement.
So far as the international aspect of the matter is concerned, I wish to make it abundantly clear that I believe that any measure in the interests of the people of the world, in which Canada can participate for the good of the people of the world, ought to receive the support of this parliament. I do not take the view that international arrangements are bad; because I believe, even more certainly than I did a short time a^o, that responsible government at the international level must come ultimately-and the sooner it comes, the better for the peace of the world.
Resolution reported.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Moved by Mr. Ilsley,
seconded by Mr. Mackenzie, that the said
Bretton Woods Agreements

resolution be read a second time and concurred in. Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


John Horne Blackmore: On division.


Solon Earl Low: On division.
Resolution read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Ilsley thereupon moved for leave to introduce bill No. 238, for carrying into effect the agreements for an international monetary fund and an international bank for reconstruction and development.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.


James Horace King: When shall the said bill be read a second time?


James Lorimer Ilsley: Now. [DOT]
Mr. ILSLEY moved the second reading of the bill.


John Horne Blackmore: Question.


John Bracken: Will the minister explain his wish with respect to the procedure from now on?


James Lorimer Ilsley: I have moved that the bill be read a second time; it will then be referred at once to the committee on banking and commerce, which will sit at four o'clock this afternoon for the purpose of beginning consideration of the bill. If it is reported back to the house, the procedure will follow that which is usual in respect of a bill. That is, it will be referred to the committee of the whole; then, if it comes out of committee of the whole, it will receive third reading.


John Horne Blackmore: Put the question, Mr. Speaker.


Solon Earl Low: Will you please put the question?


James Horace King: I have put the motion for second reading, and then I will put the motion that the bill be referred to the committee on banking and commerce.


Solon Earl Low: No; with all due respect I
suggest the procedure should be to put the question for second reading of the bill.


Major James William Coldwell: That is right.


James Horace King: Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: On division?-


James Horace King: Those in favour of the motion will say " yea."


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Yrea.


James Horace King: Those opposed will say
" nay."


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Nay.
[Mr. Speaker.!


James Horace King: In my opinion the yeas have it.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Carried on division? Mr. SPEAKER: Call in the members.



ALBERTA TAX AGREEMENT


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Finance) moved the second reading of bill No. 218, to authorize the Minister of Finance, with the approval of the governor in council, to enter into an agreement with the province of Alberta to amend1 the agreement entered into with that province under the authority of the Dominion-Provincial Taxation Agreement Act, 1942.
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair.
Sections 1 to 4 inclusive agreed to.
On the preamble:
Mr. SMITH (Calgary West):: On the resolution stage, Mr. Chairman, I was able to compliment the minister and the government and the province of Alberta for their coopera-47696-207
tion in arriving at this agreement. I overlooked at that time a number of people, and they were fine people, and the result proved it-those who looked after the interests of the bondholders in connection with this whole arrangement.


[Stage Direction]
Preamble agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to present a measure to amend the National Housing Act, 1944, ,and to provide more particularly for an increase in the appropriation for loans and guarantees under part II of the act for the payment out of unappropriated moneys in the consolidated revenue fund of loans and losses in respect of loans, not exceeding in the aggregate one hundred and fifty million dollars, and in respect of guarantees, up to an aggregate principal amount of one hundred and twenty-five million dollars of investments guaranteed;
That under the said measure expenditures may be paid out of the consolidated revenue fund to an aggregate amount not exceeding five million dollars incurred under or in carrying out the provisions of part V of the act.
He said: Mr. Speaker, in the main the amendments to the National Housing Act, 1944, which this resolution seeks authority to introduce, are of a technical nature, made necessary either by reason of ambiguities in the law or by recent developments which were not entirely foreseen when the act was drafted last year. They do not affect the underlying principles of the legislation. It was for this reason, and because of the need for immediate action, that the government felt justified in making several of the amendments effective by order in council under the War Measures Act before parliament assembled.
The amendments may be grouped under four general headings. First is a group of minor verbal changes which are necessary in order to clarify the intent of certain sections of the act. Most, though not all, of them were made effective by order in council P.C. 392, dated January 18, 1945.
Next is a group of amendments made effective by order in council P.C. 5794, dated August 30, 1945, which were necessary in order to clear the way for large-scale emergency operations by the life insurance companies in the field of rental housing. I referred to these when the bill creating the Central Mortgage
[Stage Direction]
National Housing
[Stage Direction]
and Housing Corporation was under discussion, and explained their general purpose. I shall give a detailed explanation, later when the clauses are reached in committee.
The third group of amendments relate to the appropriation sections, and, again, are in the nature of clarification rather than of modification in principle. They will be explained fully at a later stage. It is sufficient for me to say now that the enlargement of the appropiation under part II of the act removes certain unnecessarily rigid restrictions on operations under the act which had not been intended by the government, or, I think, by parliament. At present the $50 million appropriation under part II covers loans, losses and guarantees in respect of rental housing projects. To illustrate how inadequate this is I would point out that this appropriation would be insufficient should the full insurance companies' programme at present under consideration be approved. The appropriation has therefore been increased to $150 million to cover loans and losses. In addition, authority is given to guarantee investments up to $125 million, which is about the theoretical limit of life insurance companies' investments under the act. It is also proposed to appropriate $5 million under part V to provide a specific allotment of funds for housing research and community planning.
Finally, one amendment is being proposed arising out of the legislation creating the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, which has the effect of permitting the delegation of certain of the powers of the Minister of Finance under the act to the new corporation when it is set up.
In conclusion, my suggestion is, if the house will accept it, that we spend very little time on the resolution, because I have the bill ready to introduce and it is not going to be possible for hon. members to give intelligent attention to our proposals unless they have before them a bill. We are at the stage where, it seems to me, the purposes of all would be best served if it goes to committee on the resolution, and the resolution is passed and given second reading. I may be given an opportunity to-day to introduce the bill; the bill will be distributed, then any questions can be raised on the second reading of the bill or in committee on the second reading of the bill, which will be taken up promptly. It cannot be taken up to-day because there should be an opportunity for hon. members to see it.
John Bracken: Speaking for this section of the house, we are glad to expedite this measure
(Mr. Ilsley.]
in this way. I understand that the minister wishes to go into committee of the whole now and deal with the resolution.


James Lorimer Ilsley: That is right.


John Bracken: I suggest that before
second reading we might have the bill, and that there be some delay before we are asked to proceed with the second reading.


James Lorimer Ilsley: That is right.


Mr. A. M. NICHOLSON (Mackenzie):: I have a few remarks I should like to make, Mr. Speaker, before you leave the chair.
I feel as strongly regarding this problem as my friends of the Social Credit group do regarding the matter which has been before the house for the past few days, but I do not propose to hold up the business of the house.
The members of this group welcome any legislation which will make more money available in this very important matter of housing, but we must register our protest that these amendments are being brought in without adequate provision for the people in the lower income groups.
In this morning's Ottawa Citizen, for example, I notice advertisements which indicate how serious is the problem of housing in the capital of the dominion. I have looked over some of the other papers across Canada, and this sort of advertisement appears everywhere:
Returned soldier, 2 adults, desire flat, 2 or 3 rooms, kitchenette, furnished, Jan. 1 or 15.
The next advertisement:
Overseas veteran and wife, no children, permanent Ottawa residents-
Since they have no children they may have a chance of getting a small place. Next:
Urgently required, apt., furnished, unfurnished, by ex-serviceman and bride; references if required.
The first advertisement is for a bachelor apartment for two girls, and the next eight or nine advertisements are from men who fought to save their homes and find, with Christmas just around the corner, there are no homes available.
In a copy of the Ottawa Journal a few days ago the first one under "apartments wanted" is:
Rope needed! committing suicide, December 15, if don't find accommodation, preferably flat, 2 bedrooms. Permanent force officer and wife; drink', smoke, have parties, raise the dickens, have nasty little 6-year-old boy and saucy dog.
He gives an office number and a residence number. In the Toronto Daily Star a whole series of advertisements appear. I notice in the Saskatoon Star Phoenix of Saturday

National Housing
rewards offered, such as $50 for anyone who will give information leading to the finding of some place to sleep in the wintry weather out on the prairies.


An hon. MEMBER:: Haven't you any?


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: No, I have no accommodation to offer. People who are looking for homes in all parts of Canada are finding it practically impossible to obtain them; and unfortunately, although these amendments are being brought down, the minister has not seen fit to make adequate provision so that the people of lower income brackets will have at least some hope of getting living quarters under some government-sponsored plan. According to a recent issue of the Financial Post:
It now appears that projects being investigated by the new insurance corporation (Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation) are likely to run between $40 and $55 a month for rentals . . . There is no suggestion that life insurance companies will not go ahead with their projects. What is being pointed out here is that this project cannot be expected to make available rental houses for veterans in the so-called "low" rental field . . .


Mr. FRASER:: That newspaper is not the Financial Post, is it?


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: No, it carries a quotation from the Financial Post. I do not happen to have the Financial Post before me.
The government report on housing and community planning, brought down some time ago, states that in the lower income brackets the average income is $703 per family. On the basis of that income the maximum rent which should be paid, assuming that not more than twenty per cent of one's income should be applied to this purpose, is $12 per month, and in Canada we have not houses available in that income range. On page 115 of the same report are statistics, covering twelve metropolitan cities in Canada, showing that people in the lower income brackets should not be paying more than $11.72 per month, assuming they pay twenty per cent of their income, but they are paying $19 per month, which means that they are denying themselves food, clothing or health services to the extent of about $8 per month in order that they may have some place to live.
It has been found in almost every country in the world that the only way to provide housing for those in the lower income brackets is for the government or some government authority to step into the picture and make funds available over a long period of years at low rates of interest.
47696-207J
Previously I have discussed some of the housing projects in the United States, where the federal government has bridged the gap between the amount the individual can pay and what is an economic rent. I have described some of the beautiful apartments available in the city of Boston, where the rents range from $14 per month, which includes light and heat, for people receiving incomes of around six or seven hundred dollars a year. If you have an income of $1,300 a year you pay more. You pay according to your ability. But the federal authority has recognized that abolishing slums and providing congenial living quarters is a national objective which should have the support of all the people, and from a long-term point of view it is cheaper to eliminate these slums and give the people decent living quarters. In some of the public housing projects in the New York area, rents range from $8.43 in the Harlem river area, $8.42 in the Williamsburg district, $5.41 for the Red Hook houses, and $5.60 for the South Jamaica houses. The people living in these publicly-financed houses have incomes that range from $800 to $1,200, but those who live in the larger community have come to the conclusion that it is important for the future to wipe out these homes and provide more adequate houses.
All during the war I have tried to urge the administration to look forward and plan for our country, not only as far as the war effort was concerned but having regard to the future as well, by using a larger share of our raw material and man-power in providing houses for our people. I was able to cite statistics from the United States, compiled from the last war, to show how the efficiency of the people is reduced1 by workers being compelled to travel fifteen or twenty miles to work each day, and to carry on in the uncertainty of having living quarters. I found that in the city of Windsor, where the Secretary of State lives, some of the landlords were able to require the filling out of a questionnaire before anyone could come in. You had to prove that you were a Christian, that you did not talk too loudly, that you did not use your radio too much, that you had no children and no expectancy of any, that you did not use liquor, that you did not allow your guests to stay too late at night.
These were the conditions that prevailed all across Canada during the war, and1 the administration in my opinion failed to attach sufficient importance to the problem of providing houses for our people. Now we find ourselves with returning men who have been away for four or five years, some of them married before they left. They are coming home to
Veterans Affairs

their wives and families. Often the wife has been living with the family, and now these people feel, and rightly so, that they should have a place of their own to live in. I believe it was the member for Vancouver-Burrard (Mr. Merritt)-who distinguished himself by winning the Victoria Cross in this war-who found it so difficult to obtain living quarters that, as reported in the press, he felt that it might have been as well for him to remain away from the country. The situation is so critical that the minister at this stage Should make provision for an appropriation so that the money can be spent on building. A start should be made immediately to provide living quarters for the people in the lower third of the income brackets in Canada, who cannot possibly look forward to having anywhere to live if they are to depend on the legislation as it now stands on our statute books.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Tremblay in the chair.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Ilsley thereupon moved for leave to introduce bill No. 239, to amend the National Housing Act, 1944.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time. VETERANS AFFAIRS



ALLOWANCES FOR TEMPORARILY UNEMPLOYED- VOCATIONAL OR EDUCATIONAL TRAINING- UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE

[Stage Direction]
Hon. IAN A. MACKENZIE (Minister of Veterans Affairs) moved that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to present a measure, as recommended and reported by the special committee on veterans affairs, to provide rehabilitation allowances to temporarily unemployed veterans or their dependents and to veterans undergoing vocational or educational training with provision also for the application of The Unemployment Insurance Act, 1940, for the veterans' benefit by contributing the amount of the combined employer's and employed veteran's contribution into the unemployment insurance fund, from moneys appropriated by parliament. Provision is also made authorizing the governor in council to take such measures as may be necessary to remedy any depletion of the said fund resulting from the payment out of such benefits.
John Bracken: May I ask the minister what his intentions are with respect to proceeding with this bill from this time forward?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Exactly the same procedure will be followed as was followed in regard to the War Service Grants Act dealt with about a week ago. There has been a unanimous report from the committee of sixty members

of this house with respect to various benefits under the post-discharge reestablishment order. It is new legislation as far as the House of Commons is concerned. These provisions were all enacted previously by order in council, and the committee has now recommended to the house that we proceed to enact in statutory form what was already in force by way of orders in council, with certain additions which I shall explain on second reading .


John Bracken: Does the minister wish to have the second reading of the bill to-day?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: If there is no objection. It can be done only by unanimous consent, and I should like to move the second reading later.


John Bracken: Does the minister say
that the committee was unanimous with regard to all the provisions of the bill?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I was not there all the time, but I believe they were unanimous in regard to all those that are contained in this bill, though they have made certain reservations with respect to further recommendations at the next session of parliament.


John Bracken: If the committee was
unanimous with regard to all the provisions of the bill, we will offer no objection to getting it as far forward to-day as possible.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair.
Resolution reported, read the second time *and concurred in. Mr. Mackenzie thereupon moved for leave to introduce bill No. 240, to provide rehabilitation allowances for veterans.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.
Mr. MACKENZIE moved the second reading of the bill.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at three o'clock.
On section 1-Short title.
Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The veterans rehabilitation bill, so far as parliament is concerned, *is new legislation. The services to be provided under it have, however, been in effect since October 1, 1941, under the post discharge re-

Veterans Affairs
establishment order, which was approved by order in council under the authority of the War Measures Act.
The bill now before the committee has been recommended by the special committee on veterans affairs, whose recommendation, with the draft bill annexed, appears in Votes and Proceedings of this house under date of December 4.
The post discharge reestablishment order, originally adopted in 1941, was substantially revised by P.C. 5210 of July 13, 1944, and its terms have been widely publicized. It is probably the best known of all the country's rehabilitation measures. It is under this order that the Department of Veterans Affairs is authorized to assist former members of the forces in the matter of vocational training and interrupted education.
The order permits the payment of allowances, graduated in proportion to family needs, to veterans, both men and women, under the following five condition:
1.	That the veteran is willing and able to work, and has been unable to find suitable employment.
2.	That the veteran is unemployed through temporary physical incapacity.
3.	That the veteran has entered upon a business, farming or professional undertaking under his own proprietorship, and requires money for his subsistence while awaiting a first crop, or a living return from the enterprise.
4.	That the veteran has been awarded a vocational training course for the purpose of assisting him to obtain employment, or better employment.
5.	That the veteran has been awarded an educational course of university or professional . grade, either in the under-graduate or postgraduate field, or, by a comparatively recent addition to the order, for the purpose of qualifying for admission to a university.
In the case of training and educational benefits, the cost of tuition is also borne as a public expense.
There is a sixth provision giving the benefits of the Unemployment Insurance Act to veterans who enter insured employment. For the purpose of calculating unemployment benefit, time spent in military service is counted as if it had been spent in insured employment. In order to make this practicable the government pays into the insurance fund the contributions that would have been made during the time of the veteran's military service.
The post-discharge reestablishment order has been, and must continue to be, the backbone of the whole rehabilitation programme. Although all veterans may not have occasion to claim assistance under this legislation, its benefits are available to all. When originally adopted the order in council offered assistance, far beyond anything ever attempted in the past, for the purpose of promoting the civil reestablishment of a country's demobilized fighting forces.
Other countries have followed Canada's lead, and Canada has greatly broadened the terms of her own legislation. Close comparison with measures adopted in other countries is not possible, because each country has attuned its measures to its own local conditions. Nevertheless, I believe Canada can take pride in the fact that in this field her legislation is unsurpassed by that of any other country in breadth, scope and flexibility. For this very reason, because we were breaking new ground, and it was recognized that changes and modifications would probably be dictated by experience, it was considered advisable that the measure should be initiated by order in council. Subsequent developments have justified that decision.
The original order in council has been amended and broadened repeatedly, in order that we might keep abreast of developments and meet unforeseen difficulties as they arose. I have always considered however that so important a measure should have the sanction and authority of parliament, and I have, on a number of occasions, announced my intention at the appropriate time of asking parliament to convert this order in council into a statute. That step is now being taken. It has been taken in accordance with the procedure authorized by this house earlier in the session, when it appointed the special committee on veterans affairs to review all veterans' legislation, and recommend such action to the house as might be found appropriate.
The bill now before us differs from others which have already been dealt with, in that it is not an amending bill, but will lead to the enactment of a new statute. For the reasons already indicated, the bill has been designed to preserve the flexibility, so that unforeseen problems may be met promptly and effectively. The bill confers authority upon the government to pay allowances to veterans under clearly defined conditions.
With respect to members of Canada's armed forces, the bill contains no important additional benefits beyond those contained in the order in council. There is, however, one important new substantive provision permitting the unemployment insurance benefit to be extended to veterans of the armed forces of allied nations, under certain conditions:
Veterans Affairs

1.	That the veteran was domiciled in Canada before the war; and
2.	That the nation, in whose forces the veteran served, undertakes to make the same contribution to the unemployment insurance fund as that which the government of Canada makes with respect to our own veterans who enter insured employment.
As with most of our legislation, the order in council and the bill permit the benefits of the act to be conferred upon veterans of prewar Canadian domicile who served in the forces of His Majesty, other than Canadian forces.
The bill contains one or two minor provisions not heretofore found in the post discharge reestablishment order. For instance, wide discretion is conferred upon the minister in the matter of extending the time limits for training, in the case of disability pensioners. Experience has shown that the need for retraining of disabled veterans frequently arises long after discharge. The department has had this power for many years under its treatment regulations, but with the enactment of legislation on the subject of training it seems desirable that this provision should be brought under the Veterans Rehabilitation Act.
Another new provision allows correspondence courses to be given to patients still in hospital, without sacrifice of their subsequent training rights.
The select committee reviewed the draft legislation with meticulous care and, as with former bills, was able to render valuable assistance in redrafting some of the clauses so as to give greater protection to the veterans for whom the legislation is designed. The rates of allowances are not dealt with in the bill. These are left in the hands of the government, under the customary powers of ' regulation, in order that adjustments required by changed economic conditions in the country may be made without undue delay.
The adoption of this bill by parliament will necessarily lead to the drafting of a new order in council containing regulations pursuant to the act. The post-discharge reestablishment order, as it stands to-day, contains a great deal of subject matter which is now being transferred to an act of parliament. The new order in council will consist of the regulations which the bill authorizes the government to make.
No substantive changes in the existing regulations are contemplated at this time, but the department will always be prepared to recommend such changes, consistent with the terms of the act, as progressive developments may require in the interests of ex-service personnel.


Mr. BROOKS:: Mr. Chairman, in keeping with the desire of the committee, it is not my intention to make any extended remarks on this bill. The minister has already given a resume of the measure which we shall study later section by section. As one of the members of the veterans committee, I wish at this time to express my appreciation of the warm praise the minister has given the committee on various occasions. He has said it was one of the hardest working committees of the house. I think he might very well have said it was the hardest working committee, during this session.
It is also pointed out that this is a new bill rather than an amendment to an old act. It puts in statute forms the post-discharge rehabilitation orders in council that have been passed.
The bill had the general approval of the committee, not because the committee felt it was an end in itself but because the committee thought that the bill would assist toward the great end they had in view, the rehabilitation of our men who have returned from overseas. Our experience for the past twenty-five years, as the committee knows, has taught us that most veteran legislation is subject to change. We have worked more or less on a trial and error basis. I have no doubt that many changes will be necessary in the bill which is before us this afternoon. It was agreed in the committee, not only with respect to this bill but with respect to other legislation affecting veterans, that if amendments were necessary later they could be made in future meetings of the veterans' committee.
The act is to be entitled the Veterans' Rehabilitation Act. We had very little time to discuss the title in committee; as a matter of fact it was decided on only in the last moments of the last meeting of the committee. Frankly I think it can hardly be called the Veterans' Rehabilitation Act; I think it could better be called the veterans' rehabilitation assistance act, for that is really what it is. Upon looking up the definition of "rehabilitate" I found that it means to restore to former status, capacity, right, rank or privilege. This bill only assists in doing that.
The word "rehabilitation" I think has a deeper meaning for everyone. It represents the hopes and ambitions of the 750,000 to 1,000,000 men of our different services who have returned from overseas. It represents the personal and social readjustment of those people. It represents to the people of Canada and to their elected representatives their bounden duty to assure to these men who

Veterans Affairs
fought for their country that they will be properly rehabilitated and restored into the civil life of this Dominion of Canada.
There are certain things which are particularly necessary for rehabilitation, and they have been, mentioned in this committee on previous occasions. First and foremost, if we are to rehabilitate our soldiers they must have jobs. That is something about which I think we are all agreed. The soldier must have a job which is suitable to his peculiar talents and which affords him. an opportunity to better himself as time goes on. Next, the man who has returned must have a home in decent surroundings where he can educate his children and bring them up to be good citizens of this country. The. third requirement of rehabilitation to my mind is that the soldier's mind must be free from worry. He must have reached the stage where he feels he is once more a citizen of this country rather than an alien among a hostile crowd of civilians.
Taking into consideration these three things ' -jobs, homes and minds free from worry- what is the condition of the men who have returned to Canada? What do they find *when they disembark from the boats at Halifax or New York, or when they return to Montreal, Winnipeg or wherever their homes may be? These men find that from one end of Canada to the other jobs are scarce, there are no opportunities for the reemployment of our men, there are thousands of them walking the streets, there are strikes all across the country. These men find that the prospects of reemployment are less bright to-day than they have been in quite a number of years. They find that there are 36,500 returned men who are without work at this time.
This morning when the hon. member for Mackenzie was dealing with the question of housing he quoted newspaper advertisements inserted by returned service personnel who were looking for a place to live. An address was given over the radio by Mr. Woods, deputy minister of veterans' affairs, requesting the people of Canada to open up their homes to returned men. It was an eloquent appeal, and I hope it is one which will be taken to heart and acted upon by the people of this country.
This afternoon the minister stated that this bill will provide out-of-work benefits, and I think it does so in a fairly generous manner. But the young men who have returned from overseas are not looking for out-of-work benefits, they are looking for work. They do
not want to come under the Unemployment Insurance Act or under this legislation. This country cannot be built up by paying unemployment insurance or out-of-work benefits.
This bill provides for the man who has taken up business. If such a man is getting no return from his business for a period of twelve months he can obtain benefits under the act. While this may be and is very necessary, this country is not going to be built up if men have to sit back in their businesses waiting for returns for a year or possibly longer. These men would like to see the wheels of industry turning so that they can get goods on their shelves. A man who has a garage or is in some other business would like to see production under way so that he can get tools and equipment to work with at once.
I repeat that this is not a rehabilitation measure; it is simply an act for the assistance of rehabilitation. The minister referred to assistance to be given to college students and men taking vocational training. This is a wise provision. I have been pleased to hear from the heads of universities in different parts of the country that returned men who have taken up university and vocational training are showing themselves to be better than average when compared with the men in civilian life. This shows the great interest our returned men are taking in rehabilitating themselves for the days to come.
The minister spoke of the flexibility of the allowances. It is wise not to set hard and fast allowances for college students or for those receiving the other benefits. We do not know what the situation will be perhaps three or six months from to-day. Before the war a young man attending college could get board for $6 or $7 a week, but I understand that today in many cases he must pay $12 to $14 per week. Some provision may have to be made by way of regulation later on to increase the benefits and allowances to be paid to men attending our universities.
What we want to-day is an opportunity for our young men to go back to work. We want our young men back on the farms; we want our young men back in the mines; we want our young men back in industry; we want our young men back in all the activities of this country. In this great young country there are many opportunities for the young men of Canada. There has been much talk about locating the returning young men in and around the great industrial centres of Canada. We are building houses for them-at least we plan to do it; we have not done it yet. What
Veterans Affairs

we need also is to develop our northern areas. A great mineral industry awaits development there. We have the only frontier which is left in the world to-day, and there are no better men to develop this frontier than those who fought along the English channel at Caen and Falaise, in France, Holland, Italy and other countries. An opportunity must be provided for these men.
We are fortunate in having to administer the act Mr. Walter Woods, the deputy minister, a man who has earned the confidence of the veterans of this country from one end to the other by his fair administration of the Veterans Allowance Act. We have also General Burns, who is director of rehabilitation. I had the pleasure and the honour of meeting General Bums overseas just a little over a year ago, and from talking with men from different parts of Canada and with those I met overseas I know that he is highly respected and honoured by the soldiers generally. I am satisfied that he will do a splendid job. But it is not the men at the head that we have had difficulty with in administering acts for the benefit of the soldiers. It has been the underlings, if I may call them so, from one end of Canada to the other. I hope that General Bums and Walter Woods will inspire these men with the same sense of fairness as that by which they themselves are animated, so that we shall not have the criticism of this act that we have had of other veterans legislation.
I repeat that this measure does not provide for rehabilitation but for assistance in rehabilitation, and the more money we have to spend on out-of-work benefits while a man is awaiting returns from business under this act, the less in adverse ratio shall we have contributed to the rehabilitation of our young men.


Mr. GILLIS:: Mr. Chairman, I was a member of the committee in which the bill and the regulations were gone over, and I think the committee did as good a job as possible in the time at their disposal. There is no doubt that when the committee sits again, as we all hope it will next session, the experience gained in administering the act in the interval will enable us perhaps to open it up again and make the necessary adjustments.
This bill of course is not all-inclusive so far as the veterans' welfare is concerned. It is merely a bill to provide, for the time being, assistance, both financial and in the educational field, in the reestablishment of returned service personnel. We do not want to forget for a moment that it is a temporary measure, to assist the veteran in the transition period

from war to peace. We must not make the mistake of thinking that by passing this legislation we have provided wholly for the veterans; for unless the entire economy of the country is healthy the veteran will suffer with the rest of our population in an economy that does not provide for all our people.
The bill itself is clear. There can be no mistaking the intention of those who drafted it. But the test of any legislation is in its administration. We realize that fault can be found with the administrative machinery that is set up across the country. I think the department in Ottawa is doing a fairly reasonable job, but the machinery across the country is new and' is just getting under way, with personnel being trained and all the rest of it, and there is considerable room for improvement.
There is one thought in particular that I would leave with the minister. I have met those who are working in the field on veterans affairs, in connection with vocational training, vocational guidance, and so forth, and I must say that those I have met are of a very high type with exceptional qualifications and with adequate training for the job. But the salaries paid to the office staff are very low and leave much to be desired. I have talked to several men in the offices whom I knew personally. They are capable men whom the minister would find it very difficult to replace. I know one married man with eight children who is receiving a salary of only $156 a month, yet he is working at least fourteen hours a day. When he is through at the office for the day he interviews a line-up of young veterans calling upon him at his home. So he is continuously on the job. He provides his own transportation, and he has to get around quite a bit. I do not see how you can hold that type of person on the kind of salary he is getting. There is room for an adjustment of salaries all along the line for the type of person you are getting to-day and the importance of the work they have to handle. The staffs are short-handed too. They have not enough personnel, as is quite apparent.
The members of our group were fairly well represented on the committee. The bill has been gone into thoroughly, and now we are quite willing to let it go through on the understanding, first, that there should be an adjustment in the salaries of those who are assisting in administering the act, and as well an improvement in the administrative machinery right along the line; and second, that we do not make the mistake of thinking we are settling with the veterans permanently by this legislation. It is only temporary, and our

Veterans Affairs
whole economy needs to be restored before the veteran can fit into it and make his maximum contribution to the welfare of the country.


Mr. CROLL:: In discussing the 'bill which is now before the house may I point out that we have always in the past said that we have the best veterans legislation in the world. When you speak of something that is better than something else, it is well to look closely at the comparison that is being made.
As previous speakers have already indicated, this legislation deals with the interim period, just as the country is going through an interim stage. This legislation, while a benefit, is not intended to be a substitute for a job. It was never intended for that. But it has some advantages at this particular time, and I should like to make a few comparisons for the benefit of the committee. Perhaps the best comparison would be with our neighbours to the south.
Let me compare what we call in this country a gratuity with what the Americans call mustering-out pay. Our gratuity for a private after two years' service in Canada is S611 for a single man and $711 for a married man; in the United States the private receives $300.
As to the matter of preference in civil service jobs, in Canada the soldier with overseas service gets the preference. That amounts to a monopoly of jobs. In the United States they have a preference, and also a qualified preference. This may be something we shall have to consider later.
Out-of-work benefits in Canada amount to $50 a month and it has been recommended that the amount should be increased to $60. In the United States it is $20 a week; but when it is applied to a man and one child the Canadian benefits immediately rise above those of the United States. So far as educational and vocational training benefits are concerned, both in Canada and the United States they are of the widest eligibility; but the subsistence allowance in Canada is higher than it is in the United States. The disability pension for 100 per cent disability in the United States is $115 a month; in Canada it is based on rank and dependents and it is higher than in the United States.
These are just a few observations and a few figures which I wanted the committee to have, mainly for the purpose of pointing out that both the minister and the officials have a flexible mind on this problem; they have been not only ready but eager to make changes to meet the wishes of the committee, and I think that that augurs well for the future of veteran legislation.


Mr. FAIR:: I was not privileged to be a member of the special committee dealing with veterans affairs, but our group had three members on the committee, and I think they contributed their fair share to the discussions. We have had reports from time to time and have read many of the discussions. I believe there is no need for our taking up any time now. I believe the committee has done good work as far as it has gone, but we hope that in the near future, as soon as the new session opens, we shall again have an opportunity to go into these matters when there will be more time, and perhaps we shall have further suggestions to make.
I realize, and it has been pointed out already, that very good legislation can be nullified to a large extent by poor administration. Under a new head, under the guidance of a man who has the interests of the veterans at heart, we may reasonably hope for satisfactory results. I believe that under the old administration some of the staff were not giving 100 per cent satisfaction. I trust the minister will see to it that their record is improved to the utmost in the interests of the veterans rather than that of the public treasury.


Mr. MERRITT:: This bill is one of a series which in the speech from the throne was foreshadowed as the "veterans' charter". When I first addressed this house I ventured to point out that legislation is only one-half of the duty of this government, and that an equally important half of its duty is to use its executive power to carry out the intent of the legislation passed by parliament so that the benefits of the measures we pass shall go actually to the people. It is to that aspect of the matter that I wish to address myself to-day, and particularly, to the serious situation in Vancouver with regard to unemployment.
The facts of that situation are these. On November 23-using round figures, and quoting the reports of the Department of Labour- there were 13,500 applicants for jobs and 4,000 vacancies, leaving 9,500 job seekers for whom there was no job existing. Of that 9,500-again by official figures-4,700 were veterans of this or the last war. The situation in Vancouver is more serious than in any other part of the country if you compare the figures for the various districts-more serious for the percentage of unemployed, and also for the small number of jobs available.
There is one impression I want to correct in the minds of hon. members. It has been said quite often in the press recently, and I should not be at all surprised if it has been

Veterans Affairs

said in this chamber, that there is a great deal of work in the woods for those who want to go to it. I have taken the trouble to look into that situation as it affects Vancouver and British Columbia, and I find that very recently -within the last two weeks-there were only eighty-five jobs open in logging and lumbering for people in the Pacific districts, and on another day there were about 103 jobs open in those pursuits. That compares very ill with the 9,500 out of work, and I think it conclusively shows, Mr. Chairman, that the suggestion that men are not willing to go to work in the woods does not apply in British Columbia. There may be many jobs open in the future, when skilled men are found for special jobs which allow the opening of other camps and mines, but at the present time these jobs are in the potential stage only and do not actually exist. I understand that the great field for jobs in the woods at the present time is in northern Ontario and not in British Columbia.
Now, let us not be under the impression that in the spring when these key men are found there will be thousands and thousands of jobs in British Columbia. I have a newspaper clipping here, quoting a reliable source close to the logging industry, that it is anticipated that in the spring there will be 1,500 jobs opening up in the woods, and roughly, the situation in Vancouver is, I repeat, that 4,700 veterans at present are out of work.


Mr. MITCHELL:: What is the source of the hon. member's estimate of 1,500 jobs?


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: The source is a newspaper clipping, a reporter of a Vancouver paper talking to someone engaged in the logging industry. I hope, with the minister, that it will be many more than 1,500, but I simply throw that out as a warning.
Turning for a moment to the question of housing in Vancouver, we find the same deplorable position. A recent statement issued by the emergency shelter authority shows 4,143 persons listed on the books of the administration as having no or unsuitable housing, and of that number, 3,483, or more than three-fourths, are ex-servicemen. In the month of November there were 833 placements only.
Another significant thing about these figures is that, of those placements, 450 couples were couples of whom the husband enlisted in Vancouver or in British Columbia, and in the case of 237 couples the veteran had come from some other part of Canada and is now trying to settle in Vancouver. So that there again

we find that the benefits we hope to put on the statute books are not now getting over to the veterans.
I want to say something very briefly about the causes of this situation. We all know that out in British Columbia we have the most wonderful climate in Canada, and that it attracts people from all over the country. That, of course, is actual fact, but as a result, as I will show, we have very many more people in the province than we had before the war. But offsetting that, our industry is pretty well primary industry-lumbering, mining and fishing-and the openings for employment, particularly in Vancouver, are probably not as extensive as they are in the big cities of the east. Again, with respect to seasonal work in our mines and logging camps, there is always a shut-down around Christmas time, and that is contributing to the situation as well. Of course, we have a shortage of key men; but, as I have pointed out, this business about people being unwilling to go to the woods does not apply in Vancouver, where only 103 jobs are open. Other things have contributed to the difficulty at the present time. In the first place, it is estimated that forty per cent more than the number who enlisted are taking their discharge from Vancouver barracks, that the total being discharged from the armed forces at. the present time is 2,500 a month or more -I believe it was 3,500 in November-and that there was a war-time influx into our war industries, shipbuilding and aeroplane building, which have completely shut down now, of some 90,000 from the prairie provinces. That figure is an estimate, and it may be a little too high. But in addition, the figures I have from newspapers show that there are about 300 people coming into Vancouver every month from the prairies or from the east; they are all closing in on that city looking for jobs, and the "job base," if I may put it that way, is one of the narrowest in all Canada.
I should not want to have it thought that the citizens of Vancouver are doing nothing to cure the situation, because as a matter of fact they are doing a great deal. They started a citizens' committee and a caimpaign "Invest in the Veteran." They set out in the hope of being able to get each one of the 2,500 businesses and industries in and around the city to take on at least one veteran, and larger enterprises to take on many more indeed. Tfiat is of course the best possible way in which a situation such as this can be solved, because it is upon private industry that we depend almost entirely for employment in this country. I want to call attention to the efforts of the citizens' committee, because it is a

Veterans Affairs
very creditable move indeed and it is the way in which the problem of unemployment in the final analysis can be solved in every part of the country-the only way. But while I say that private industry is the body which gives employment in this country, I do not relieve the government from responsibility in this connection. Although private industries are the actors on the stage, the stage setting which enables the actors to carry their play through successfully is the responsibility of the government, and there are many ways in which the government can assist in that stage setting which as yet I have not seen them undertake. One of these ways is this present bill, but that is not enough by any means.
I suggest that there is not a sufficient lead from the government in this connection, and there has not been in the government's policy sufficient flexibility to deal with a situation in a particular locality in Canada, even though the general over-all picture may not be nearly as bad as the local situation. I would ask the government now to give that lead and to provide that flexibility. With this in mind, so that it will not be thought that I am talking vaguely and in generalities, I have specific suggestions which I wish to make to each of seven or eight ministers of the crown. Since they are not all in their seats at the moment I will address these suggestions to the Minister of Veterans Affairs, whose job it is of course-it must be his principal job- to coordinate all activities of the government which can be of benefit to veterans.
We have had from the Minister of Reconstruction the statement that there is to be no public works programme to relieve the situation in Vancouver, although that has been asked for. I have no particular objection myself to no public works programme, chiefly because I am quite sure that it would take so long to get it actually started that the situation must be met by more expeditious means. I do not think the government is right in withholding public works generally at the present time. The shelf project is all very well; but it might also be a very good idea not to cultivate the squirrel habit when you put things on your shelves. If these public works were prepared they could be used to advantage in Vancouver to-day. However, let us assume that we shall not have public works, since that has been definitely stated by a minister.
Then we have the Minister of National Defence, who is responsible for dischare policy in the armed forces. We have had it from the minister that people may be discharged in whatever part of Canada they may wish. Again in general I have no particular objection to 47696-2081
that but I do object, when an emergency situation such as this arises, when everyone is crying in Vancouver for work, that no change is made in that policy at the present time. It is ridiculous that the government should go on discharging in Vancouver people who did not enlist there, knowing that there are no jobs to be found at the moment and that as soon as they have used up their month's pay and started on their reestablishment gratuities they will be back on the labour market, using their credits for living expenses, which I am sure was never the intention of the government, and certainly not the intention of parliament. This is definitely the time when the discharge policy should be reviewed with the object of stopping temporarily the discharge of service personnel in Vancouver if they did not enlist there or if they have not a definite job to go to.
Let us combine that question of the discharge of men with the Department of Reconstruction on the matter of housing. I have given the housing situation in Vancouver. It is very serious indeed. Over 3,400 veterans are improperly housed. If we are to go on discharging men in Vancouver at the rate of 140 per cent of enlistments, I suggest that the Minister of National Defence and the Minister of Reconstruction could well get together and give Vancouver a greater priority for housing materials for veterans, thereby getting these people under cover and providing a greater chance of employment.
I turn now to the Department of Labour, By all means, let us stop this influx of 300 a month from the prairies. Let us advertise in the papers on the prairies and bring the full weight of the Department of Labour to bear in order to show men that it is useless to go there now and add to the unemployment situation. Let us tell them that if they go out they will be doing the veterans who are at present in Vancouver, a bad turn by competing with them for the few available jobs. Let us impress upon people the unwisdom of going out to Vancouver at the present time. People will respond to that kind of thing. They are not fools, and if they get sound advice from someone they respect I am sure the Canadian people will follow it.
I wish to commend the Department of Labour for having agreed to pay the fares of those moving out of Vancouver who are going to jobs in some other part of the country. It is a thoroughly commendable step to take, and it is one of the things that each department of the government should be thinking of, because all these little nickels that each minister can throw in, if I may call them that, will make a dollar by the time the whole cabinet has put
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in its contribution, and will go a long way towards solving the problem, that we are now discussing.
May I now turn to the Department of Mines and Resources and to the Department of Fisheries. There is much work to be done in the future in each of these departments. Perhaps the dominion-provincial conference is holding up progress at the moment because no agreement has been reached. But when an agreement is reached between the dominion and the provinces there will be a tremendous expansion of the work of reforestation and the propagation of fish. There will be a large field for trained foresters, hatchery men and the like. Hon. members are aware of the fact that we are short of trained men in these fields. We have large numbers of veterans, the best men you could possibly get, who have been outside and living that kind of life for four or five years. They are ideal men for these jobs. They could1 be taken in hand and put in training schools so that when an agreement is reached between the dominion and the provinces that work would not be further held up for lack of trained men.
Another job which could be done immediately, particularly in Vancouver, comes under the Postmaster General. We have not yet got back to double delivery of mail in Vancouver. Air mail which comes in in the morning is actually held over until the following day because of the lack of afternoon deliveries. I have had several resolutions from various bodies in Vancouver. One of them came from the citizens' rehabilitation council, which deals with veterans. It urged that a second delivery be inaugurated. I have made reference to the committee of citizens in Vancouver which is sponsoring this campaign for jobs for veterans. Is this government going to lag behind in these matters? Where there is useful work to be done in the whole community, does the government intend to leave until next spring or some time in the future the employment of additional men on the postal routes? It will not be as valuable then as it would be now, because in addition to taking several hundred of these veterans off the out-of-work rolls in Vancouver it would give inspiration to the committee there. They would know that the federal government is taking an active part in the citizens' campaign which is making such a great effort to help to employ more men. I suggest to the Minister of Veterans Affairs that this matter be taken up with the Postmaster General-not next week, not after Christmas, but now; and that instructions be sent out, to-day if possible, that these men be taken on the postal staff and that a second delivery be instituted at once.. This

is not a matter of relief; this is not employment for employment's sake; it is a necessary job and it should and must be done right now.
I now come to the Department of Finance. There is much that they can do. They can throw in their nickel's worth too. I have two principal suggestions to make here. My first one is decentralization. At the present time prices are fixed in Ottawa. Hon. members are aware that because Ottawa is three thousand miles away the people here do not fully know the conditions on the coast. They know only what they are told by their branch offices out there. In actual practice it has been found that it takes two months to get a price fixed for a new commodity. Think of what that has done to the reestablishment of civilian trade. Think of what it has done to the Christmas trade; think of what it has contributed to the present unemployment situation in Vancouver. There should be decentralization now; there should be some flexibility in this price fixing. If the people on the spot were given at least some measure of price fixation, within certain limits laid down in Ottawa, they would be able to do the job perfectly well and still prevent inflation, and at the same time get things moving.
Recently in this house we heard the Minister of National Health and Welfare say that his family allowances could not operate unless they were decentralized. He has only seven employees in Ottawa, and that is the kind of thing I suggest should be considered by the Minister of Finance at once in the hope of getting some speed in this matter.
The second principle that I suggest the Minister of Finance should look into is that of flexibility. I can give 'the committee an illustration which will show what I mean. At the present time there is a shortage of lath in the building trades. I have it from sources in Vancouver that mills are cutting up wood for firewood instead of making it into lath because under the vagaries of the wartime prices and trade board they get more for wood than they do for lath. If that is so, does it not show that there is need for someone from the wartime prices and trade board being on the spot in these various centres, someone who will go round, ferret things out and correct these maladjustments which are holding back reconstruction?
I know this, from having been told by an officer of the wartime prices and trade board, that during the war that body worked on the principle that if the fixing of prices forced a

Veterans Affairs
man out of business they did not mind. That was all right during the war because there was an inexhaustible demand for labour in war industry, and if someone was forced out of an inessential trade he could get a job at once in a war industry. Now the circumstances are entirely different. You cannot afford, by your price control mechanism, to force anyone out of business, and you cannot afford to force him out of essential lines into other and less essential lines. Decentralization would tend to greater flexibility and provide more jobs.
Everyone in the house knows that deflation is one of the causes of unemployment. In our attempts to prevent inflation do not let us go to the other extreme and deflate and cause unemployment. 'Let us look at the situation and see whether in fact there are elements of deflation in the activities of the wartime prices and trade board. I know that everyone in the house is for price control, but it must be borne in mind that we have taken away the price incentive to do business. If we are to undertake to control the economy of the country in this way, then we must not do only half a job. We must do the other half by providing some incentive other than the price incentive to keep business going and to keep on expanding. I suggest that that must be looked into very carefully by the Department of Finance, particularly in relation to the situation in Vancouver.
Finally, I come to the Minister of Veterans Affairs. I suggest that his function is to coordinate the activities of all these other ministries, to hold out the bag so that they can put their nickels in and by that means get something done in connection with this matter. "Get cracking!" Finally, I urge upon the minister with all my strength that he should go out to Vancouver-


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Nothing I should like better.


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: -and see, on the ground, what the circumstances are. He should talk to that citizens' committee and find out what the government can do to assist them; he should talk to the veterans and find out what their troubles are. And, having made that personal inspection, having talked to the people, he will come back here with many more ideas than I have been able to give him this afternoon-and I believe I have given him a few.
The most effective way in which problems such as those existing in Vancouver can be solved is by a minister of the crown making an investigation and, while he is doing so,
getting behind the local movement and giving it the greatest possible boost. Let him show the employers that this civic effort is not some crazy man's idea but a great national effort to which all can contribute on behalf of the veterans.
The limit to which the government can go, in my view, was set out by Mr. Churchill at the time V-2 bombs were falling. He was asked what he was doing to stop them, and he answered in this way:	"I was inspecting the
damage done by one of the bombs the other day, when a man who lived in one of those houses came up to me and said, 'What are you doing to stop these things?' I answered him by saying, 'I am doing everything humanly possible'." This, I suggest, is the only limit this government can accept in a situation such as that which confronts the veterans this winter. When the government has done everything humanly possible, it has done enough. I do say, however, that at this time, and certainly in connection with the situation in Vancouver, very little has been done. Certainly not enough has been done, and that which has been done has not been sufficiently publicized out on the Pacific coast. At the present time the people out there are angry because veterans are unemployed. But, as I said when I first came to the house, they are just as angry because they do not seem to get any response from Ottawa when they attempt to lay their difficulties before the government.


Mr. JOHNSTON:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to say only a word in this connection. I had not intended taking up much time at this stage, because all parties in the house were represented on the committee. I must however say a word about the speech just delivered by the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard. I appreciate, as he does, the situation in which returning men find themselves,, and I understand that in Vancouver the situation is probably worse than it is in any other part of Canada. But when any hon. member suggests that appeals should be made by one part of the country to another asking that people stay out of certain fields of employment so that veterans may be employed, I suggest that such procedure would not be for the welfare of the country as a whole. If the unemployed people in the prairie provinces,, about whom he spoke, were to take his advice and stay home rather than go to Vancouver to seek employment, I do not know what they would do. Surely that is not a solution of the problem. I should expect the hon. member to have greater vision than that. Temporary
Veterans Affairs

relief of unemployment in Vancouver certainly will not take care of the unemployment problem across Canada. I have no doubt the suggestion was made in the veterans committee that these returned men should be cared for and kept on full pay and allowances until such time as they might be properly rehabilitated. I should think that would be much more to the point than the suggestion that unemployed people in the prairie provinces should not go in search of employment, to Vancouver or anywhere else.


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: Does the hon. member know that those who are going out there are unemployed? It is my understanding that they are not, and that they are people who prefer to live on the west coast.


Charles Edward Johnston: 
Mr. TUCKER:: Mr. Chairman, our veterans committee was to meet at four o'clock. It would be my understanding that the committee would adjourn until we had completed discussion on this legislation.
Mr,. SKEY: Mr. Chairman, I am the sixth member from this side of -the house to speak on this measure, and it is significant that all six have seen fit to mention one aspect of the legislation, namely its administration and operation. I am sure it was the matter of efficient administration and operation that the committee had in mind, when it included the section granting the minister such wide powers. While hon. members realize that those powers add greatly to his duties, I believe they were inserted so that he might be permitted to interpret the spirit of the legislation and to implement the views of the committee.
Perhaps it was a certain uneasiness in the minds of all six hon. members which prompted them all to call attention to the unnecessary delay in granting benefits, narrow legal interpretations, tight rulings by the department, and close decisions by -the treasury board. I know that such things were not intended by the veterans committee. I hope that great vigilance will be exercised by the members of this house in the interpretation of the spirit of this legislation; that the members will assist the minister in -the exercise of his wide powers, and that the members will also include in their vigilance the Veterans' Land- Act and the -legislation having to do with gratuities and disability pensions.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 2 to 6 inclusive agreed to.
On section 7-Allowance during vocational or technical training.
Mr. LOCKHART:: I do not intend to criticize unnecessarily what is in the bill, but I should like t-o point out one thing to the minister. I may be misinformed, but I am

Veterans Affairs
told that special emphasis is being laid upon certain types of vocational training to the detriment of other essential services which are necessary.
Mr. MiITCHBLL: What has the hon. member in mind?


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: I am going to prepare a memorandum about this. In my own line of business, I find that there are very few men taking up the type of work that would fit them into the building industry. We are going to be desperately in need of such men, because there has been no apprenticeship carried on for many years. Then there are men who prior to enlistment were engaged in lake transport and work of that kind. The other day the hon. member for Cape Breton South referred to the men who were not returning to the coal mines. I have tried personally to induce men who before enlistment had had training of this kind to go back to the same type of work, but many of them seem to be thinking about work in factories. I would urge upon the minister that strong representations be made to these men to the end that as far as possible they take up work in which they had some preliminary training prior to enlistment and not create bottlenecks in one particular line to the possible neglect of other essential services.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am grateful to the hon. member for his constructive advice, and I should appreciate receiving a memorandum along the lines he has suggested. We have two types of counselling service. The first is the in-service counselling which a man receives before he leaves the service, and then we have trained 1,500 personnel counsellors through the cooperation of the Department of Labour, the Department of Veterans Affairs and the three services. These men are trained to be expert in giving the best possible advice to veterans. I should like to be advised if there is any inadequate advice being given, and if so it will certainly receive attention.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 8 and 9 agreed to.
On section 10-Correspondence course, payment of cost.
Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: In connection with these three sections I should like to know if the allowances vary in the different cities?


Walter Adam Tucker: There is no variation.


Mr. PROBE:: I should like to ask the minister a question with respect to the new hospital wing for veterans at the Regina general hospital. I have just received a written communication, the second of the kind that has come to me, with respect to the physiotherapy facilities at the Regina general hospital, which is under the Department of Veterans Affairs. I am informed that there is a large basement room available for physiotherapy purposes but there is no equipment. A question was asked of Doctor M. A. Carmichael, chief medical officer of the Department of Veterans Affairs, with respect to obtaining this necessary equipment. His answer was:
We've been trying to get equipment for a long time but you just can't get if there's none to be had. This is a big show, there are forty or fifty other places demanding equipment from the government and they need it as badly -as we do in Regina.
This newspaper article states as follows:
Two weeks ago Docor Hartley Wilson, director of physical medicine, Ottawa, was in Regina and he promised to rush equipment ias soon as it was available. Doctor Carmichael said he thought equipment would be coming through within a week or ten days.
This condition of affairs has existed for three or four months, as no doubt the minister is aware. The letter which I have received states that at the present time there is ample physiotherapy equipment in Dundum military hospital to meet the needs of this particular wing of the Regina general hospital. Could the minister say whether steps have been taken to supply this equipment?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: If they have not, they will be taken right away.


Walter Adam Tucker: This matter was brought to my attention yesterday. I brought it to the attention of our medical treatment branch and urged them to investigate the possibility of moving this equipment from Dundum military hospital.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 11 to 18 inclusive agreed to.
On section 19-Regulations.
Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: I should like to make one general observation in connection with housing for veterans. So far as I can find out, no houses have been completed under the provisions of the Veterans' Land Act or the rehabilitation act.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes, but not many.
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Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: I am told that it will
be February, March, April or May before a good many of these houses will be available.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It is hoped that 2,700 will be completed shortly after the end of March.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: I am told that in certain parts of the country-I am not speaking so much of my own part-there is a growing opportunity to get possesion of more wartime houses. The situation to-day is that 4,000 returned men are out of work; thousands more are coming back week by week, and some 1,500 to 2,000 war brides are expected in the early part of the year. It would be a boon if these wartime houses could be occupied to the greatest extent possible, even if only temporarily. The situation is such that legal separations are even taking place caused by the lack of proper housing, and I would urge the minister to cooperate with other branches of the government service to make more houses available as quickly as possible.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I appreciate my hon.
friend's comments. The matter was discussed by the committee when dealing with the veterans land bill. As my hon. friend is well aware, there are four housing agencies in Canada-in my opinion too many:	the
National Housing Act, Wartime Housing Limited, small holdings, housing under the Veterans Land Act, and private enterprise. I am speaking now not for the government; I think the first thing to do is to coordinate those four agencies into one. I do not think housing belongs to the Veterans Land Act at all. That is my personal opinion. We have 3,000 houses now in the course of construction, and 6,000 are projected for next year under the Veterans Land Act, I would hope that before long some central agency would coordinate all these enterprises. I think it would make for greater progress and better results.


Mr. KNIGHT:: Mr. Chairman, I do not
know whether I am in order in introducing this matter, but I am interested in the Canadian Corps of Fire Fighters. I presume that they come under ..the minister's care in the capacity of veterans. Is it true that the committee has reported favourably on their case? I should like the assurance of the minister that something has been done in committee for these fire fighters, or is in preparation. I feel that I owe that to them at least.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The fire fighters were in the first place under the Department of National War Services. Several orders in council have been passed providing benefits

for them; not one hundred per cent in every case but eighty-five per cent of the benefits extended to those in the fighting forces have been extended to the fire fighters who were overseas. The committee will be completely free when it meets again next session to review the benefits extended to the fire fighters. I have had several interviews with them and have always found them very fair indeed.


Charles Edward Johnston: I understood that it was practically agreed in the committee that the case of the fire fighters would be reviewed by the committee next session. I have representations to make on behalf of the fire fighters, and I have in the meantime passed them on to the members of our group who are members of the veterans committee, and who have informed me that the whole question of the fire fighters is to be gone into thoroughly next session. If not, I have representations to make to this committee.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The assurance I gave
was that the terms of reference to the committee next session would be as broad and as comprehensive as the terms this session in regard to the welfare of any of those who served overseas during the trying time of war.


Charles Edward Johnston: That is what I
understood.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: I think the minister said that the matter would be reviewed next session. What I am interested in is an improvement in the lot of the fire fighters. It was my understanding that the committee was pre^ pared to recommend an improvement, putting the fire fighters on practically a basis of equality with other returned veterans.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The committee is free to consider the whole situation.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: If that should not be so, I have a brief to present on their behalf at this time.


Mr. GREEN:: I think the minister has not made the situation clear with regard to the fire fighters. Unfortunately the majority of the committee decided that they would not consider their representations during this session. Now the position is that the matter will be left over until next session.


Walter Adam Tucker: Shortly the committee will meet to make its final recommendation, and this matter will be considered before it makes its final report. One suggestion I had thought of bringing before the committee was that they might recommend in their final report that an interdepartmental committee be set up to assemble full data on matters that we did not have time to deal with this session,

Veterans Land Act
so that everything could be got in shape to enable them to be dealt with expeditiously next session. The things we have not had time to deal with this session will of course be taken up by the veterans committee next session. If such a small committee is set up to assemble data on matters that have been left over until next session, there will be included in them of course the submissions of the fire fighters and of those interested in their welfare, and that will be considered by the special committee.


Mr. ADAMSON:: I understand that these are permissive regulations with respect to the passing of orders in council to meet the com ditions which were adduced in evidence during the lengthy sittings of the committee; that the matter will be further studied and orders in council brought down and eventually incorporated in the statute as amended next session.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is right.


Mr. ZAPLITNY:: Have the orders in coun-;il that have been passed with respect to the are fighters been tabled?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Mr. SKEY:: I notice that clause 2(n) says that "veteran" means
A person who has been on active service in the Canadian forces . . . including a person who has served in the 'Canadian Women's Army Corps.
Is that intended to apply also to the women's division of the Royal Canadian Air Force and to the Wrens?


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 20 to 22 inclusive agreed to.
On section 23-Unemployment insurance benefits to certain veterans of other nations.
Mr. STIRLING:: Would the minister say what information he has as to the willingness of the allied nations to contribute in this way?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There have been representations from some of them, but not from all, indicating their willingness to contribute. We shall substantially increase the benefits up to the Canadian rates.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Section 24 agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. IAN A. MACKENZIE (Minister of Veterans Affairs) moved the second reading of bill No. 233, to amend the Veterans' Land Act, 1942.
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair.
On section 1-"Minister"; "veteran".
["Why then was this examination allowed of a man who had received a sentence to the penitentiary?\nMr. ST. LAURENT: The hon, member will have to address his question to the attorney general of Ontario who has to do with the administration of justice in this province. The Department of Justice had nothing whatsoever to do with the incident to which the hon. member refers.\nItem stands.\nProgress reported.\nIt being five minutes after eleven o'clock, the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.\nWednesday, December 12, 1945."]
Ian Alistair Mackenzie: This bill, of which the second reading has just been endorsed by the house, is a bill to amend the Veterans' Land Act. Like the bill amending the War Service Grants Act, with which we have already dealt, this bill has been recommended to the house by the select committee on veterans affairs.


Mr. MacNICOL:: Unanimously?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes. The committee's recommendation, which includes the draft bill, was presented on Monday, November 26, and appears in the Votes and Proceedings of that day. The act which it is proposed to amend was adopted in 1942, also upon recommendations of a committee of this house.
The amendments now offered represent for the most part orders in council adopted under the War Measures Act arising out of administrative experience and designed to increase the scope of settlement opportunities.
With the end of the war it has been deemed desirable that the legislation should be reviewed by a select committee of this house and that amendments having their sanction in orders in council should be embodied in the statute with the full authority of parliament. The select committee was also authorized by this house to consider the whole field of veterans' legislation and was invited to suggest additional amendments which might be deemed appropriate. These instructions the select committee has acted upon.
The bill now before us includes not only those provisions which had already been adopted by order in council but two or three additional clauses. The bill as recommended by the committee has been accepted by the government and is before the house in the form of a government bill.
Aside from orders in council, the two principal amendments recommended by the select committee are: first, a more precise definition of the service qualifications required of applicants for settlement under the act; second, a specific assertion that the acceptance of the benefits conferred by the act shall not dis-
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qualify a veteran from taking his seat in parliament. With respect to the definition of service, it has been decided to follow the very carefully considered language of the War Service Grants Act. The desirability of the second new provision arises from the fact that numbers of members of the forces were members of parliament or have been elected to parliament. It did not seem in the public interest that veterans should be deprived of their reestablishment rights by reason of the fact that the people of Canada had chosen them to be their representatives in parliament. The other amendments, with one exception to which I shall refer, are those which had been adopted by order in council as the result of administrative experience.
One group of such amendments increases the ceiling prices for contracts of settlement. The original act, as passed in 1942, provided that the maximum cost of an individual settlement should not exceed $4,800. It was found that the administration could not acquire a sufficient number of satisfactory farms and suitable small holdings within that maximum. The new ceiling which has been in effect for some time is $6,000. Needless to say, there are some areas of very high quality land where farms and settlements cannot be acquired even at this price. However, by actual experience the director has been able to acquire close to five hundred thousand acres of farm land suitable for settlement within the ceiling now prescribed and, in addition, approximately twenty thousand acres of carefully selected sites for small holdings. The provision regarding ceilings recommended to the house by the select committee is, in form and substance, identical with the powers which the director has already enjoyed for some time under a series of orders in council.
The other major subject covered by this amending bill is the provision for enabling settlement to take place on provincial crown lands, upon Indian lands, and upon land within national parks or otherwise vested in the crown in right of the dominion.
To understand the history of these amendments, it is desirable that we bear in mind the fundamental purpose of the Veterans' Land Act. That purpose is the reestablishment of veterans, in this case the reestablishment of veterans with farming experience or a farming background, in farm homes, or upon small holdings where the cultivation of the soil contributes jointly with some other occupation to the maintenance of the veteran and his family. In order that this statement may not be incomplete, I should mention that commercial fishing is dealt with on a parity with farming. The important point in this con-
text is, however, that our dominion legislation in this field is aimed specifically at the reestablishment of veterans on the land under conditions which offer reasonable assurances of success to the average industrious practical settler.
The Veterans' Land Act contemplates a loan and, under certain conditions, a free grant of a certain proportion of the value of the enterprise.
It was considered essential-and this was repeatedly emphasized by members from all parts of the house-when the act was under debate in 1942, that each individual settlement project should be carefully scrutinized from the point of view of both the qualifications of the veteran and the suitability of the land.
Provincial governments are also interested in settlement from the point of view of the opening up of new and unsettled lands in frontier areas. Representations were received from several of the provinces urging that the Veterans' Land Act should be modified so as to be of assistance in this regard.
There is, of course, nothing in the act to prevent settlement upon crown land where, in the judgment of the director and his advisory committees, the project offers reasonable assurance of success. It is well known, however, that a great deal of provincial crown land is wild land outside the settled areas, and that the man who undertakes to bring a tract of wild land under cultivation faces a certain element of risk. In practical experience we find very little such land that constitutes in its present condition adequate security for a loan such as is contemplated under the standard provisions of the Veterans' Land Act.
While the dominion and the provinces, for the reasons indicated,, necessarily approached this whole subject from quite different directions, we considered that there need be no irreconcilable difficulty about combining the two purposes.
The legislation was designedly drafted in flexible form, because the proposals of the several provinces differed greatly from each other.
The contribution to settlement, which the dominion is prepared to make under these agreements, is a dircet grant not exceeding the maximum free grant, which accompanies a standard settlement contract on a developed farm.
The amount is $2,320, and the act requires that this sum shall be used for one or more of a variety of purposes set forth with great clarity in the section of the bill which is now being introduced. It is open to the provinces

Veterans Land Act
to make some additional contribution to the settler's success, and several provinces have indicated their intention of doing so.
The order in council, which it is now proposed to incorporate in the act, has been at least partly justified by experience. Three provinces have already entered into agreements with the dominion and negotiations with three others are in an advanced stage.
The result is that the substantial number of Canadian veterans who were reared on our northern frontiers can, if they wish to do so, return to that part of the country whose ways and resources they know and understand. They can return to the frontiers and receive a substantial measure of state assistance under terms that are broad enough to permit them to undertake careers in which farming, fishing, forestry, trapping or a combination of several of these typical Canadian occupations, may contribute to their livelihoods.
An almost exactly similar provision was adopted with respect to Indian veterans who wish to settle upon Indian lands. Such lands cannot be given as security for a loan, but the Minister of Veterans Affairs is authorized to enter into an agreement with the Minister of Mines and Resources for the purpose of ensuring that members of our Indian bands, who have served nobly in the war, shall not be denied assistance in settlement upon lands within Indian reserves.
While these clauses were under consideration by the select committee, another problem arose which was dealt with in the same way. Numbers of members of our armed forces were born and brought up in such towns as Banff and Jasper, which are situated within national parks. It is dominion government-policy that such lands may not be alienated, and cases arose where residents of park lands were unable to enjoy the benefits of the Veterans' Land Act by reason of this fact.
Accordingly the select committee has recommended-and the government has accepted the proposal-that the Minister of Veterans Affairs -shall be authorized to enter into an agreement with the Minister of Mines and Resources providing for settlement on park lands or, indeed, any other crown lands for which the Minister of Mines and Resources is responsible.
I am advised that the provision is broad enough, for instance, to cover settlement in the Northwest Territories, if such a case should .arise.
In submitting this bill to the committee, I think we should endorse without the slightest hesitation the recommendations of the very able committee of this house who gave their fine consideration to the measure.


Mr. ROSS (Souris):: The committee agreed to recommend this measure unanimously, in so far as it now stands, with certain reservations, on the understanding that at the next-session the committee could be reconvened and then offer any further amendments that might be necessary to take care of provisions not now contained in the bill. As pointed out, a committee of sixty ex-servicemen gave lengthy and detailed study to the matter, under the able chairmanship of the hon. member for Rosthern (Mr. Tucker) and the discussions were at all times non-partisan.
The original Veterans' Land Act was set up, as the minister has stated, after a careful study by a special committee of the house in July, 1942. The preamble made it clear that the proposed measure did not restrict its terms to full-time agriculture, and although the principal objective was for full-time agricultural settlement, a veteran might secure a holding and be assisted in settlement even though he had other employment.
The total expenditure per settler was at that time $4,800, of which $1,200 might be for stock and equipment; section 13 has been amended to provide a maximum of $6,000, the rate of interest being three and a half per cent; and after ten years of settlement under the contract a maximum of $2,320 of this $6,000 becomes a grant to the settler.
The bill was founded on the principle that the veteran should have a substantial equity in the land. Mortgage companies used to contend that a farmer should have a fifty per cent equity in his land in order to be assured of success. The central mortgage bank was founded on the basis of a twenty per cent equity, and this bill provides a forty-three per cent equity, including ten per cent paid down by the veteran when he procures settlement.
Post-war farming has been considered, first, as a way of life and, second, as a business. There is a difference there because, after all, it has been considered by governments in the past that it was essential to have a number of people decentralized to settle on land. First, let us look at farming as a way of life. When it comes to business there are difficulties that crop up periodically. Great changes have taken place in agricultural production in the past few years. Mechanization has displaced many farm hands. During the war years British agriculture has become the most highly mechanized in the world. That is something different from the condition which obtained a few years ago.
There is no provision in this bill for settlers to purchase power equipment cooperatively, and $1,200 will not go far in that direction.
Veterans Land Act

That is something which I should have liked to see attended to, but I do not wish to make an issue of it at this time. We must recognize, however, that if the scheme is to be successful the principle of parity must be taken into consideration. In this connection I would quote briefly from a statement I made in July, 1942, when the act was set up. I should like to read what I said in regard to the question of parity:
May I say at the beginning that if it were not for the fact that I have some faith in the future, and a hope that agricultural parity will eventually be established in Canada, I would not have been able to support the bill even in principle. In the great nation to the south of us, the United States, there has been parity between agricultural and other products for a year now, and under the Washington wheat agreement of June 27, 1942, signed by the Argentine, Australia, Canada, the United Kingdom and the United States, the representatives of these nations have recognized the basis of a parity price for wheat which will return a fair remuneration to the producers as well as being fair to the consumer. On the basis of these agreements, and having regard to what has been done in the United States, I think we may hope that we are doing these settlers justice by establishing them on the land, because we hope that they will be able to carry on under parity prices, in the future at any rate. As I say, if it were not for that hope I for one could not have supported the bill.
As I said then, if it had not been for that hope I could not have supported the bill in July, 1942. I regret that the pious hope which I had at that time has not materialized effectively. During the past three and a half years we know what has happened in connection with wheat agreements, and how international conferences have fallen down in this respect. Agricultural producers in western Canada alone, as has been pointed out in other debates, are receiving, as a result of controls, approximately $255,000,000 less for this year's grain crop than they would have received on the open markets of the world, and live stock and dairy produce are on a par with grain. We have taken from one-third to fifty per cent less, while the implements of production which these settlers must purchase are on the basis of open world market prices.
According to western real estate men who appeared before the veterans committee, land values have risen twenty-five per cent since the beginning of the war. Now the ceiling price on grain is on the average a little better than twenty-five per cent over our present floor prices. You can see, therefore, the necessity of some basis of parity. No provision is made for that in the present act, should we enter into another depression, and these settlers will be caught in a deflationary set of circumstances. There is no provision to assist 
the veteran to start in business. That should have been taken care of in the rehabilitation act. If a young veteran with financial means of his own wishes to start up in business, he finds under the	controls	that	are in force
to-day, and the priorities, that he cannot procure the necessary goods without being forced into partnership with someone who is already established. This applies to men and women alike.
Section 35 was amended to facilitate the negotiation of agreements with the various provinces for the use of their provincial land to provide	for	assistance	to veterans.
These agreements provide assistance to veterans as farmers, as small holders, for forestry establishments, for commercial fishermen, for trappers and so on, with a grant up to $2,320.
As mentioned	by	the	hon.	member forRoyal, speaking	of	the	north country, I
believe that in this great dominion we are fortunate to have vast undeveloped natural resources, mining, lumber and so on, and this provision certainly assists the veterans along these lines. There are great possibilities in this respect.
With regard to administration, the director stated that some of the delay during the first years of this war had been deliberate on the part of the administration. As the committee will realize, wives must appear with the husband before the settlement committee. The committee must be assured that the wife is qualified to carry on as the husband. Many thousands of our men married overseas. Many of those men are home and their wives cannot as yet obtain passage to this country. There are many embarrassing situations, and with the present unemployment in Canada the veterans are here and the wives overseas. The men are spending their allowances of one kind and another looking for work or settlement. A small article appeared in one of the last issues of the paper from the veterans' department, carrying this heading: Wife a Burden?
A veteran applying for benefits under a section of the Veterans' Land Act which authorizes a loan at three and one-half per cent to pay off a mortgage on property already owned, was told to bring in a list of his encumbrances. He brought in his marriage certificate.
There is really a lot to that. It is an encumbrance to the poor chap under circumstances as they exist to-day. There are many thousands of such cases. While I would not urge that our men should stay overseas, I would hope that some transportation could be made available to get those wives back to this country as soon as possible. That is very important.

Veterans Land Act
The original intention of this act was for land settlement rather than small holdings. In my opinion, the efforts of the administration have been directed more to centralization of small holdings near, and in some cases, within large cities, than land settlement. We all realize that everything possible must be done to provide housing for the veterans and their dependents.
My colleague, the hon. member for Royal, made an urgent appeal to the people of Canada along that line, and I trust it will be heeded by them. The cost of constructing these houses has risen from 35 to 50 per cent since the commencement of the war. We all know how difficult it is to get houses in this country to-day. We have wartime housing, national housing and our Veterans' Land Act, and all centralized. I do not think we should follow the principle of setting up communities in this country. I know it is difficult at the present time to do otherwise because of controls. It is necessary that materials and all that kind of thing be purchased in the mass through cooperation, and therefore it is difficult to get away from controls. But I am afraid it does not augur well for the future of this country. I should like to see decentralization take place along that line as quickly as possible. Personally I am opposed to centralization of these veterans' settlements, especially when there is no assistance at present in this set-up for individuals who want to get back to the place from which they enlisted, the small village or town in the country. While provision is made to improve the present difficulty, at the present time it is almost impossible to carry out the arrangement.
I was reading some of the debates that took place in 1942 when this act was under discussion. At that time some hon. members of the government pointed out they hoped that centralization of veterans' communities would never take place in this country. It may well be that the administration of land settlement and small holdings will have to be separated in Canada, because it is most important that we provide housing for those people, and to have both phases properly carried out. It may be necessary to separate them and to set up two boards of administration.
On November 1, 1945, there were 18,705 applications for qualifications for establishment under the act either for farming or for small holdings. It is estimated that by the end of 1946 there will be over 35,000 applications in the dominion. Of these it is estimated that 17,400 will be established by the
end of 1946 as follows: 6,420 as farmers; 10,225 as small holders and 825 as commercial fishermen.
In my view this new bill is good as far as it goes. It is an excellent bill and a great improvement over the old Soldier Settlement Act. But as I have already pointed out, there are shortcomings. We wish to facilitate the passing of the measure just as quickly as possible to assist the veterans and their dependents. The veterans' committee of the house have worked hard and given of their best. We have the assurance that such a veterans' committee will be reconvened immediately after the commencement of the next session of parliament, and that further amendments covering the points I have raised will be permitted. All of us who' have been close to this situation realize that within the next two or three years new problems pertaining to the rehabilitation of our veterans and their families will be cropping up, and that members associated with that work in this parliament will be called upon to give close attention to this committee for the next two or three sessions of parliament.


Mr. WRIGHT:: As the minister has said, this bill was reported unanimously from the veterans affairs committee. There were several reservations in the minds of hon. members, not only in the group with which I am connected but in other groups in the house, as to the sufficiency of all the sections of this bill to meet the purposes for which it was passed, namely, permanently to establish returned men in civilian life on farms. I believe that was the original purpose of the act, although, as the last speaker and the minister have said, there was another clause introduced in the act, namely, the small holdings clause which, while not displacing the main part of the act, has assumed an important place in it. Personally I think it has a place in Canada and should be encouraged.
While in some of the things I say with respect to the bill as it stands at present I may appear to be critical, I want it clearly understood that I believe that this bill is an improvement on the old Soldier Settlement Act. I had a lot to do with that act, and with the people who settled under it, and I am sure that this measure is an improvement over the old act.
I have three main objections to the bill, which I believe caused the failure of the old Soldier Settlement Act, and they have not been entirely eliminated in this bill. In the first place, under the old Soldier Settlement Act land, stock and equipment were bought at inflated prices. They were bought in 1919
Veterans Land Act

and 1920 when, as everyone knows, prices in Canada were inflated. As a result, under that act the settlers found themselves in great difficulty. In the second place the failure of the old Soldier Settlement Act was due to the fact that in settling under that act the soldier did not have sufficient equity in his land. He made a ten per cent payment and the rest of the debt was charged against him. As the hon. member who has just taken his seat has said, no mortgage company will accept loans on that basis. No mortgage company would grant a loan of ninety per cent on the land. In most cases fifty per cent is the maximum that they will accept. In the third place I believe that the old Soldier Settlement Act failed because the soldier settling under it did not have enough capital to make a success of his business. In many cases he was operating an. uneconomic unit.
Let us see what we have done to eliminate these three main causes of the failure of the old act. When this act was drawn up in 1942-and I was on the committee along with some other members of this house who reviewed it-we made certain suggestions with respect to improvements in it. Some of them may have been accepted, but others have not. I believe that they will eventually have to be accepted before the act can be the success which we all hope it will be.
Are we settling settlers under this act at inflated prices? I believe that we should ask ourselves that question. Is the land that we are buying for the soldier settlers under this act being bought at its true value, or what may be its future value in Canada? The evidence given by real estate dealers who appeared before the committee of the house was that land prices had increased by approximately twenty-five per cent. Some who appeared before the committee were unable to express an opinion, but of those who did, that was the lowest figure at which they placed the increase in the value of land over the 1940 value.
My personal experience is that, at least in the better farming areas of Canada, there has been an increase to an extent of at least fifty per cent over farm land values which existed in 1940. Again we are settling our returned men on lands which are being sold at values considerably enhanced over those of 1940. This would be all right if we had any assurance that land would remain at those prices, or that agricultural prices would remain at their present levels. Under those circumstances land values would become stabilized at present levels.
But we have no such guarantee. As a matter of fact, the floor prices which now exist in

respect of cereals, and which have been established by the government, are at least twenty-five per cent below present prices. If we allow the prices so set to become permanent floor prices, then certainly we are faced with a deflation in farm values. Many of the soldiers who are being settled, under these circumstances, would find their equities disappear within the next few years.
For the moment let us consider stock. When the men come back they will have to buy stock. Any hon. member who has had any connection with agriculture will know that the present price of a milch cow in Canada is from $150 to $200. That is the price for any reasonably good animal. Similar animals could have been bought in 1939 or 1940 for from $75 to $100. Again, when we proceed to buy stock for these settlers, or when they spend their $1,200 for stock and equipment, they will be asked to spend it in an inflated market. While we have made some attempt to stabilize prices in Canada, and have had a certain measure of success, those prices will not remain stable unless we maintain for our agricultural products floor prices at or near present price levels, or the present selling prices of those products.
Let us now consider the second point, namely the equity the soldier will have in his land. In this respect the present measure is a great improvement over that which was found in the old soldier settlement scheme. The original act passed in 1942 set aside $3,600 for land and buildings and $1,200 for stock and equipment. The $1,200 was a grant to the soldier, provided that he retained possession of the land for ten years. He also received a rebate of 334 per cent of the $3,600. This left him an equity of about fifty-five per cent in the land and equipment under that agreement after he had made his ten per cent initial payment.
We stated at that time that we did not believe $3,600 would buy a proper unit for farming purposes in Canada. The director, and some others who appeared before the committee in 1942, seemed to think we were wrong. However, when the act was put into operation they found they could not secure land at that price, with the result that by order in council the amount for land and buildings was increased to $4,800. It was found later that even this would not buy the necessary amount of land, and another regulation was passed allowing the $1,200 granted for stock and equipment to be used for the purchase of land.
I am reasonably sure that those men who are out to-day buying land under the authorization of the Veterans' Land Act are getting

Veterans Land Act
very little more in land value for their $6,000 than was obtained in 1942 for $3,600. There has been an increase in land values to approximately that extent.
The $1,200 now being allowed in the purchase of land is not allowed by way of a grant. Rather it becomes part of the' loan, and only 334 per cent of it is written off. This makes a difference of about $920 in the equity a soldier would have in his land. It was the intention of the government, as stated at that time, to see that the soldier had a real equity in his land. I maintain that this $1,200, which can be used for the purchase of land, should be a grant, the same as it would be if he used it for the purchase of stock and equipment.
In my view, many failures which took place under the old soldier settlement scheme could be traced to the fact that the soldier did not have enough capital with which to work an economic farming unit. Surveys which have been made in Canada by various agricultural colleges as to what is required by way of capital to operate a successful farming unit show, in, almost every instance, that up to a certain amount, the more capital one has invested, the greater are his chances of successful operation. As a matter of fact, it is recognized to-day that a successful farming operation cannot be carried on without a capital investment of at least $10,000, and that there is a much greater likelihood of success if the investment is about $15,000. With the greater investment one stands a much better chance of success than with the smaller one.
Again, that greater investment gives the farmer a better chance to educate his children and to enjoy some of those amenities of life to which, in my view, the farm population are entitled, just as much as are people living in the cities and towns. To enjoy these amenities the farmer must have a capital investment sufficient to enable him to operate an economic unit. In my view $6,000 is not enough nor do I think it is enough to establish a returned man on a unit on which he would have a chance of success, or of educating his children, or of giving them the proper medical attention or of those other amenities of life to which we in Canada believe we are entitled, and which some cannot have.
I have some suggestions which I offer for the consideration of the committee. In the first place, I believe that payments under the act should be made on a parity basis. When the act was before the committee in 1942 I suggested the insertion of the following section:
In any year during which the selling price of the commodities produced _ by the veteran falls relatively to the cost price of the goods and services purchased by him as compared with the similar selling .and cost prices which prevailed during the year in which this act will have come into force-to be known as the base year-the payments due shall be reduced by an amount proportionate to the decrease in the purchasing power of the agricultural products in that year as compared with the base year.
Those payments would be considered payment in full for such year. I feel sure that, if some such section were in the act, the settlers who would come under its operation would have a much better chance of success than they have at the present time. After experience, it is my belief that, had the old soldier settlement scheme under which the settlers were placed had a section such as the one I have suggested, there would not have been constant applications to Ottawa during the years for revisions of the act for the purpose of making it possible for soldier settlers to remain on their lands. Even with all the concessions that have been granted, of over 25,000 who settled on the land only a little more than 4,000 have been able to complete their payments up to date. Unless we introduce some parity clause in the present land act we shall find ourselves again facing the same difficulty. Delegations of soldier organizations will be coming to Ottawa in five or ten years trying to get some revision made to the act. The soldier does not want charity; all he wants is justice and a fair chance in our Canadian economy. He can get that only if we have some such clause in the act.
The second thing which I believe should be done is to make more capital available to the settler. As I stated before, I believe it takes at least $19,000 to operate an economically equipped unit, and that much capital should be made available to the settler under the act. It need not necessarily be a grant; it might be a loan. With the way in which payments now operate we could increase the total loan to $10,000, so that an economical unit could be obtained by the settler. He would then be able to get sufficient stock and equipment to work it in the way in which it should be worked if it is to be a success.
The third thing which I believe should be done is to try to make more land available to the settlers. The board is having a great deal of difficulty in getting land which it wants. We were told in the committee in 1942 that in all probability there would be 100,000 applications under this act for permanent farm holdings during the first three years after the completion of the war. I believe that to date we have had some 35,000 applications for
Veterans Land Act

small and permanent holdings, but as yet we have1 settled only a small number because we have not the land available.
In certain parts of Canada large areas of land are being held by different companies. Originally this land was given to these companies as grants. Such grants were made to the railroads, to the Hudson's Bay company and to others. Some of this land is still unsettled; it is still in the raw state, but it is fairly close to railroads, schools and various other amenities of life. The government should try to obtain land from these companies and make it available to our returned men. These men should not have to go back thirty, forty or fifty miles from a railroad to settle on provincial land unless they wish to do so. In many cases these men would prefer to have land closer to railroad facilities, closer to markets and in places where they could receive better medical attention and have better school facilities for their children.
The fourth thing which I suggest the government should do is to permit a settler to use the SI,200 which he receives under the act for stock and equipment cooperatively with other settlers. Anyone who has had anything to do with farming knows how far SI,200 will go to-day in buying stock and equipment; it will just not go anywhere. The average farm in eastern Canada has at least $3,000 to $4,000 worth of stock and equipment. The average grain farm in western Canada has from $5,000 to $7,000 worth of equipment. If four or five returned men were allowed to pool their $1,200 cooperatively to buy equipment they could then purchase a reasonably economic unit with which to operate their holdings.
It was suggested in the committee that this could be done by each one buying his own equipment and then lending it to the others. Anyone who has been on a farm knows that that would not work out. There is mucn heavier upkeep on one piece of equipment than on another. A man may have a seed drill costing $400 and the upkeep would be quite small. Another man would have a binder upon which the upkeep would be higher. A third man might have an engine upon which the upkeep would be still higher. The only successful way to pool the use of equipment is cooperatively, to have the equipment owned and operated by the group.
Another way in which the settler could be assisted would be to make available tools, trucks or other equipment which are now under the control of War Assets Corporation. These should be made available to the settler direct without having to go through two or three hands with the consequent commissions having
to be paid. When the Minister of Munitions and Supply was before the committee he stated that the Department of Veterans Affairs would be given an opportunity to purchase this equipment. I suggest that the branch having to do with the Veterans' Land Act appoint a purchasing agent who could go to War Assets Corporation and obtain such equipment as may be used on the farm.
I know something of what it is to try to operate a farm with poor equipment. I tried to repair machinery which I had obtained under the old soldier settler board for the first four or five years I was on the land; I tried to work with a monkey-wrench and a piece of baling wire, but I found it discouraging. There are millions of dollars worth of tools and equipment now in the various camps and air force depots across Canada which could be used to good effect by the settlers who will be settled under this act. I strongly urge the minister to appoint a purchasing agent who could make out a list of what would be a reasonable set of tools for a settler. Then purchases could be made from War Assets Corporation and these tools made available to settlers who may want them.


Mr. REID:: He could not carry on without baling wire.
Mr. WRIGHT; He will probably need a lot of baling wire as well. A farmer to-day has to be a jack of all trades. He has to be a motor mechanic; he has to be a blacksmith; he has
to be a carpenter; he has to be a tinsmith, and he has to be many other things. He would find things much more pleasant and helpful if he had the necessary equipment to do the job.
Many of these settlers are coming to the local offices set up under the Veterans' Land Act where they are shown what land is available. This land may not be in the district in which they want to settle. They are then told to go out, secure a suitable piece of land and report to the office. If the price is suitable, if the land is found to be reasonably good, the application will be considered. But it costs the returned man money to go out and look for land. I would suggest that some facilities be provided for settlers who are going out to look for land. At least a car should be placed at their disposal so that they can go out and select their land. Most of these boys have not too much money, and they will have to pay ten per cent of the cost and meet other expenses until they become established.
With respect to the small holdings, perhaps at the present time it cannot be avoided, but most of the building on these small holdings is being done by large contractors, who will

Veterans Land Act
put up twenty or thirty or forty or a hundred or two hundred houses, which are then sold to the returned men. Perhaps that is the only way in which this scheme can be operated at the present time. But just as soon as that method can be changed I would suggest to the minister that the veteran be given an opportunity and assisted to build his own home. With most of the successful cooperative housing schemes that we have in Canada, the measure of their success has largely been the measure in which the individual himself took part in the building of his own home. In cooperative housing schemes in the mining and fishing centres of Nova Scotia, for instance, groups of men would get together, study their own housing problems and then plan and build their own homes. In that way they built a home that was much cheaper and much more satisfactory to them as individuals than any house built by a large contractor could have been.
There are a large number of men returning this winter, and many of them will be out of a job. I would suggest that the department organize them where they want to go on small holdings and have study groups to study their housing problems and plans for their homes or small businesses which they wish to establish, and then get them to work on these things themselves. In that way you would find a much better satisfied group of people than if you put them into houses built for them by large contractors. There would be more personal satisfaction for the men themselves who had helped to build their homes with their own hands and more satisfaction for their wives who had helped to plan their own homes. There is nothing which gives more stability to a community or to a country than the ownership of a piece of land and the building of your own home. When you have planned and built your home yourself you do not leave it lightly. You will find a job in that community and remain there in all probability for the rest of your life. If such a plan were adopted I believe that it would stabilize, to some extent, at least, the fluctuations of population, the travelling from place to place by men looking for jobs.
These are just a few suggestion which we believe should be incorporated in the present act. We feel that when the house next meets we must be given an opportunity to review this act once more to study some of the suggestions that have been brought forward and to bring them to the attention of the government perhaps in the form of resolutions from the committee so that we can get action upon them.


Mr. HERRIDGE:: I wish to express my
pleasure at having been on the veterans affairs committee. It has been an interesting experience to me. I have been interested to notice the non-partisan way in which the committee faced its problems and I hope it is a good omen for the future. I am sure of this: when we come to deal with the difficult problems that will face us, if we face them in the spirit of the committee, I have no fear for the future.
I wish personally to express my thanks to the minister, and to the officials of his department for their excellent cooperation in dealing with veterans and related questions in my own constituency. I am particularly interested in this amending bill that has been brought down, and for this reason particularly, that a large number of returned men in British Columbia will welcome the legislative powers given in section 6. That is the section which makes it possible to make capital grants to veterans settling on provincial lands. I believe that this section will prove to be one of the most successful of the whole act. I have on several occasions heard people minimize this form of settlement, but 1 think the future will prove that a greater percentage of men have been settled satisfactorily under this section than any other section of the Act.
In my own district we have large numbers of men who are interested in part-time farming in association with lumbering, mining, trapping and, in some cases, prospecting. I am not pleading the case of the capitalist farmer who requires a $10,000 starting investment, but the case of the proletarian farmer, as I am a socialist. We have large numbers of these in the interior of British Columbia who would like to have a small acreage of land and keep a cow, a pig or two and cultivate a few acres of fruit and hay and who, having some other occupation, will be able to make a satisfactory living. I am pleased to see this section incorporated in the act. I would ask the minister to do everything possible to see that an agreement is reached with the government of British Columbia, so that men wishing to settle under this section may be able to do so at the first opportunity. I have heard mentioned on one or two occasions that the settlement of these men would have to wait until the dominion-provincial conference had concluded. I do not see why that should be necessary, and I hope that the minister will do what he can to see that an agreement is reached with British Columbia, so that the men who are waiting to take advantage of this section can go on provincial land in the near future.
Veterans Land Act


Mr. FARQUHAR:: May I ask the minister whether the grants work out equally for the man who pays $6,000 for his farm and for the man who pays $5,000?


Walter Adam Tucker: It depends upon whether he puts it all into land or part into machinery. If he puts it all into land he does not get as much as if he also buys machinery. The entire cost of machinery up to $1,200 is ultimately cancelled if the veteran carries out his contract. If none is put into machinery he does not get cancellation in regard to the machinery. It all depends on the amount invested in machinery.


Thomas Farquhar: He gets it all in land or land and machinery?


Walter Adam Tucker: He could put $1,000 of it into machinery and $5,000 into land, and then he would get a cancellation of the machinery in addition to cancellation on the land.


Thomas Farquhar: It does not work out in the same way?


Walter Adam Tucker: No.


Charles Edward Johnston: How would that apply to soldiers who are taking advantage of provincial legislation and getting their farms free after living on them for ten years? Take, for example, the plan in Alberta, where they have agreed to set aside a certain amount of land, and after the soldier has lived there for ten years, with no taxes to pay on it or anything, he is given free title to that land; would the soldier there be entitled to this grant for buying machinery, cattle and equipment?


Walter Adam Tucker: Under the terms of the agreement he can get up to $2,320, and of course that can be used for the purposes set out in the act.


Charles Edward Johnston: That is the direct grant? That is what the hon. member called a while ago the free grant?


Walter Adam Tucker: That is the maximum he could get if he were using the assistance to buy machinery and land, and if he goes under the agreement with a province he can get the maximum amount of $2,320 for such purposes as clearing the land, purchase of buildings, purchase of live stock, machinery and so on, as set out in section 6 of the bill.


John Oliver Probe: While the hon. member to my left has been putting in a silent plug for the province of Alberta.


Charles Edward Johnston: They took the lead.


John Oliver Probe: -would it be possible for the parliamentary assistant to indicate the provinces which already have agreements with the Department of Veterans Affairs?


Walter Adam Tucker: As I remember it, Saskatchewan and Alberta.


John Lambert Gibson: And British Columbia?


Walter Adam Tucker: British Columbia, as I remember, is not yet included in those with an agreement, but they are negotiating.


Mr. McKAY:: Just a few words in support of what the hon. member for Melfort has said about what he regards as the inadequacy of some provisions of the Veterans' Land Act. He has stated the views of this particular group, and it is not my purpose to supplement his remarks in that connection. But I would say this in so far as the activities of the committee on veterans' affairs are concerned: I feel that that committee has done an excellent job, not because I was one of them-


An hon. MEMBER:: Partly because-?


Eric Bowness McKay: Yes, partly. I do not think I have worked on any committee which has done such excellent work in such a short space of time. I believe I am right in saying that some thirty meetings or more were held, most of them of two hours' or more duration; they were conducted on a non-partisan basis, and the debates were more or less cutting across party lines every day. I would commend to the minister the suggestion that it would be an excellent thing if that committee, or one just as nearly like it as possible, could continue the work on behalf of the veteran, because I do not think there is any legislation before the house to-day or likely to come before the house in the near future which will be more important.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: We will appoint the same committee.


Eric Bowness McKay: One of the most commendable amendments of the Veterans Land Act is that which has to do with the extension of the provisions of the act to our Indian veterans of this war. Some of these Indian boys served in two wars, and they did an excellent job; they fought for our democratic principles; and I believe that this amendment which extends the provisions of the act to the Indian veteran is a step in the direction of granting full rights of citizenship to this fine body of people. By failing to provide for them we were guilty of a certain discrimination against a people who have always sacrificed for Canada when they were required to do so. They have been called to the colours at least three times in not a great many years, and they have acquitted themselves most commendably. I feel that by removing that

Veterans Land Act
act of discrimination against them, in so far at least as the Veterans' Band Act is concerned, we are doing something for which this country will acclaim the work of the veterans affairs committee and this house of parliament. Not only is it a fair and just thing to do, but it is a step to eliminate as much as we can this thorn in our flesh which we call racial discrimination. I hope that the work of committees of this kind will be extended and will bear fruit along the same lines in other sessions.


Mr. MUTCH:: Most of those who have spoken on this bill this afternoon have been people on the opposition side of the house; but since in this committee the question of opposition does not arise, perhaps I should not have used that word. I think everyone who has spoken this afternoon has referred in complimentary terms to the cooperation of the committee and its lack of partisanship; indeed, most of them have spoken in complimentary terms of the cooperation received from the minister, the chairman, and the officials of the department. I know that both the minister and the chairman are much too modest to acknowledge even these compliments in the committee of the house. But as one of the supporters of the government, one who by the way, has sat on all or most of these committees since 1936, I would say that the debate this afternoon has been truly indicative of the interest of that committee in the veterans themselves and of the uniform desire of the members of that committee to really accomplish something.
However, it is not primarily of the things which we have jointly accomplished that I wish to speak at the moment. I should like to suggest to the minister and the committee what, it seems to me, remains to be done. One of the most important things which this committee will have to do when we meet again, as I understand we shall do, is to define, more accurately than we have been able to do in any except the first bill which they brought in this year, what amounts to a dishonourable discharge from the service, and to make sure that the application of that particular discharge does not diminish the benefits which are available. For instance, I am told that at the present time it is impossible, or most unlikely, for anyone who has been dishonourably discharged from the service to be established under the Veterans' Land Act, and yet I am pretty sure that there are worse disqualifications than dishonourable discharge. It might be that a man is dishonourably discharged for an act of insubordination, beating up the sergeant-major, or something of that description, which from a military point of
view might justify dishonourable dismissal from the service in order to make an example and to preserve discipline. The same pugnacious tendencies might not be any handicap to a man who is attempting to reestablish himself on a prairie farm. I think the word should go out to the interested veterans across the country that the committee are seriously concerned about that particular phase of rehabilitation and reestablishment, that it is not a dead issue, that we are united in the committee to see that when we meet again it will have further consideration, and that we shall more definitely define this provision in all the various enactments on the subject in this parliament.


Thomas Reid: A few minutes ago the hon. member for Kootenay West mentioned a few things about the government of British Columbia and the dominion government coming to an agreement with regard to lands offered by the dominion government. Could the minister give us a statement regarding the matter, because I have taken exception to the conditions put in the offers of grants by the British Columbia government, and I have predicted that the plan will not be a success, owing to the regulations or the requirements for entry on the million acres which they are providing. One of the requirements is that any returned soldier taking advantage of the scheme must have enlisted from the province of British Columbia.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I objected to that.


Thomas Reid: I think a protest should be made against it. At the present time there are being discharged in Vancouver greater numbers of soldiers than originally enlisted from the Pacific coast. I feel sure that many of these men would like to take advantage of that offer; and I can say this without fear of successful contradiction, that those who have been raised in Vancouver and in the Fraser valley will not be very keen to go up into that district where the million acres which have been offered are located. They will not go there, and those who come to the province and would like to go there are debarred by these regulations of the provincial government. This can be said in fairness. The men who offered their lives did not offer them solely for British Columbia but for the whole of Canada, and yet they cannot take advantage of the regulations if they did not enlist from that province. I do not know whether the minister cares to explain it, but it is my information that that is one reason why the agreement has not been completed between the provincial government and the dominion. If so, steps should be taken and every argu-
Veterans Land Act

ment used to persuade the provincial government to amend the regulation, because I think it is deplorable.


Charles Edward Johnston: The minister should also consider doing the same thing under federal legislation that the province has been trying to do by provincial statute in the effort to assist returned men. The federal government could easily give land to the soldiers without compelling them to buy it. They could make a grant of the land. Surely if the provincial government can so arrange its affairs as to give land outright to a soldier after he has lived on it for ten years, without an accumulation of taxes, and without one cent of debt; if the province in its small way can do that, the federal government can certainly do the same throughout Canada.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am in entire agreement with the suggestion of the hon. member for New Westminster. I do not think there should be any regional limitation upon any land settlement of veterans in Canada. The whole question is one of suitability of the soil, economic availability of it, and suitability of the settler. We have gone through all this land very carefully, and it is going to cost the settler a great deal of money for the clearing of much of the land, so that I fear that in a great deal of this land there may be placed on the settler a burden such as was imposed upon him in 1919 and 1920, when too high prices were paid for land. If any agency or government were prepared to have it cleared, giving the benefit of the clearing to the settler, it would be a different question. I may tell my hon. friend that we have reviewed all that land. There are areas there that can be developed of course, but in many cases, I fear, unless one government or another assumes the cost of clearing the land itself it will be an impossible burden on the settler.


Charles Edward Johnston: Surely the minister
knows that Alberta has suggested an arrangement between the federal government and the government of that province to do the very thing he asks. Why cannot the federal government come and assist the government of Alberta? It would not cost the returned man one cent, because the proposal is for the federal and provincial governments to take that responsibility. If Alberta can do it, I am sure the other provinces can do it, and I do not see why the federal government cannot render such assistance.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: We have gone very far with Alberta, as the agreement which has been signed will indicate.


Charles Edward Johnston: But they are a progressive province and you should follow their lead.


Howard Charles Green: I had not intended to say anything about the situation in British Columbia until section 6 of the bill came up for discussion, but seeing that other members have already brought up the matter and that the minister has dealt with it I should like to say a few words. I am convinced that both the dominion government and the government of British Columbia are trying to do their utmost to help the veteran to get on the land. Some suggestion has been made in the remarks we have heard that the provincial government is not doing the fair thing.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I did not suggest that at all.


Howard Charles Green: Certainly there is something wrong somewhere, and perhaps both governments are to be condemned for not getting together and entering into an agreement. The provincial government over two years ago set aside a million acres, which, as I understand, was to be given free to the veterans. The provincial government, rightly or wrongly, restricted that to veterans who had enlisted in British Columbia. I think they should have asked for some provision such as priority to the men who enlisted in British Columbia. One reason they took that position was that so many men kept moving into the province who had not enlisted from British Columbia, although we have the highest enlistment record in Canada. I believe that Prince Edward Island and British Columbia are equal. I do not doubt that some change could now be made, that the provincial government would be willing to alter their provisions, but the British Columbia legislature is meeting in another two months and time is of the greatest importance. This disagreement must not be allowed to go on; the two governments must get together without further delay. The provincial government is hoping to have these lands opened up. I believe the idea is to open up frontier lands. The dominion government do not want to put veterans on frontier lands, and there is a difference of opinion there. Why would it not be possible to make some arrangement whereby the provincial government would help with the clearing of the land? That would obviate one of the difficulties.
In the committee I formed the opinion that perhaps the director and his staff had given up too soon. This scheme has now become largely, or at any rate partly, a housing scheme, whereas it was intended originally to be a scheme

Veterans Land Act
for settling veterans on farms. But the figures given by the director show that there are far more veterans being settled on small holdings in the suburbs of the large cities than are being settled on the farms, and it may be that the attention of the director and his staff is concentrated too much on these small holdings, beneficial as they are. Mind you, they mean a lot of work. They bring up all sorts of problems, and I imagine they are causing the director far more concern than settlement on farms.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Quite true.


Howard Charles Green: The situation in British
Columbia may be caused by the fact that the director is paying too much attention to the small holdings on the outskirts of cities and not enough to the settling of veterans on farms. According to the figures he has given, and they are illuminating-they will be found at page 624 of the proceedings of the veterans affairs committee-he estimates that up to the end of 1946, that is after the war will have been over for a year and half, there will be settled under the Veterans' Land Act across the whole of Canada only 6,420 farmers, as against 10,225 small holders settling in the suburbs of cities and 825 as commercial fishermen, or a total of 17,470. That is less than half the number of men who, it is estimated, will have applied for help under this act. He gave the figures for the applicants. It is indicated that the numbers who have applied already are 14,276 for farming establishments, and just over 6,400 will be settled up to the end of 1946 ; 20,040 have applied for small holdings, and about half that number will have been settled by the end of next year. Veterans to the number of 1,464 have applied for help as commercial fishermen, and only 825 will have been settled by the end of next year, so that the whole scheme is in danger of bogging down and of becoming a housing scheme.
The minister himself suggested in the committee the other day that he thought there should be one housing authority in Canada to look after all the problem of housing and not have it divided up between his Department of Veterans Affairs working under the Veterans' Land Act in connection with those small holdings, the Department of Reconstruction, working under Wartime Housing, and the Department of Finance working under the National Housing Act. I think he was quite right; but in any event the government must not overlook the fact that this is primarily an act to settle veterans on the farms. So far as the situation in British Columbia is concerned that objective has not been met at the
present time, and it will not be met until the two governments reach some sort of agreement. I am hopeful that the airing of this difficulty first in the committee, and then in the house-I am sure it will be aired in the press-will assist the governments to get together. Only in that way can they bring to the veterans the benefits that have been earned.


Walter Adam Tucker: There are one or two things I wish to mention. In regard to the governments which have made agreements, I forgot to mention that the government of Manitoba has also made an agreement. In regard to British Columbia, I would point out that our department is pressing for an agreement but is handicapped by the fact that this provision which has been mentioned by the hon. member for New Westminster is part of the statute law of British Columbia and they cannot do anything until they have that law changed. That has been the difficulty, but our department is pressing for an agreement as hard as it can.
While I am on my feet I should like to express deep and sincere appreciation to those who have made constructive speeches this afternoon; also to those who, while having strong opinions about various matters, have refrained from speaking so that we might hope to get these two bills through this afternoon. It has been a great privilege to me to sit on the veterans affairs committee, and I wish to thank 'those who cooperated on the committee and also those who cooperated in the house in order that these two bills might go through as they have this afternoon.


John Bracken: I was one of those who refrained from speaking, and perhaps I may have an opportunity to ask one or two elementary questions now. The parliamentary assistant to the minister referred to an agreement with Manitoba. Could he outline that agreement in a minute or two? Then I have another question with respect to the numbers who have settled on the farm.


Walter Adam Tucker: The agreement with the province of Manitoba is found on page 647 of the proceedings and evidence of the special committee. It is a legal agreement and takes up five printed1 pages. I could indicate the effect of it to the committee except for the fact that it would take more time than we have available.


John Bracken: H the parliamentary assistant cannot do it in a minute I can read it myself. I thought he could abbreviate it. Do I understand that only 14,000 soldiers have applied for farms under this scheme?
Veterans Land Act


Walter Adam Tucker: The number of applications received under the Veterans' Land Act in the month of October and from the inception of operations to date, as I have them here, is 18,705; applications dealt with, 11,262; those qualified, 8,267; that is, received qualification certificates.


John Bracken: Is that for farms?


Walter Adam Tucker: That is for farms.


John Bracken: Not small holdings?


Walter Adam Tucker: It includes small holdings and farms.


John Bracken: Has the parliamentary assistant any idea how many more may come forward asking for those rights?


Walter Adam Tucker: An estimate of that is based upon the statements of those who gave statements to the in-service counsellors. I have not the exact figures at my finger-tips. My recollection is that it was about double the number that have already applied.


John Bracken: How does that compare with the numbers who accepted land after the last war?


Walter Adam Tucker: That was something like 25,000 as I remember it; that did not include small holdings.


John Bracken: They are not entering into this proposition in the same way as they did under soldier settlement after the last war?


Walter Adam Tucker: I think it is expected that before we are through we shall have applications from about 10,000 more.


John Bracken: That is not based on the figures you have just given.


Walter Adam Tucker: They are not all discharged yet. These figures take us only up to the end of October.


John Bracken: I asked for an estimate of those who might apply later on. [DOT]


Walter Adam Tucker: My recollection is that the number that they expected to apply before December 31, 1946, under the act was somewhere around 35,000.


Howard Charles Green: No, 14,000; it is found on page 624 of the proceedings of the committee.


John Bracken: If the minister has not the figures at hand I can get them from the record of the committee.


Walter Adam Tucker: I think it was 35,000 in all.


John Bracken: That does not agree with the figures just quoted to me.


Howard Charles Green: May I read from page 624 of the proceedings of the committee. The director was giving evidence and he said:
Under the heading of farming establishments we have a total estimate of 14,276 -applications.
That is to the end of next year, 1946. A few moments ago I said that number had already applied. Apparently I was wrong; that was the estimate to the end of 1946.
He goes on:
For small holdings, 20,050; for commercial fishing, 1,464, or a -total of 35,780 for the Dominion of Canada.


John Bracken: The parliamentary assistant was including those small holdings.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 2 to 6 inclusive agreed to.
On section 7-Grant to Indian veteran.
['The parliamentary assistant was including those small holdings.']
John Ritchie MacNicol: An hon. member to my left made some reference to the Indians of the great war. Does this bill apply to the Indian veterans of the great war?


Walter Adam Tucker: No; it applies only to an Indian who was in this war.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Why not to the great war?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is a different act. This is the Veterans' Land Act. It was mentioned in the committee, as I remember, and it is one suggestion that will probably come up next session.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I think it was on account of the age, the length of time it would take to pay for it.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 8 and 9 agreed to.
['I think it was on account of the age, the length of time it would take to pay for it.']
Percy Ellis Wright: I have one question I should like to ask the minister before the bill,is reported. What has been done between his department and War Assets Corporation with respect to purchasing some of the spare equipment which they have at this time. Has anything 'been done:?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes; we are in communication with that department now, and we have been in communication with them.


Percy Ellis Wright: We have been in communication with them with respect to this matter for a long time. I should like to see some action taken with regard to it. This is not just good enough. This is the last opportunity we shall have to discuss this matter, and I should like some assurance from the minister that something will be done.

Supply-Trade and Commerce


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I can assure my hon. friend I shall pursue it vigorously.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.



[Stage Direction]
Third and final report of the standing committee on external affairs.-Mr. Bradette.
At six o'clock the house took recess.
After Recess
The house resumed at eight o'clock.
[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair.
[Stage Direction]
330. Departmental administration, $167,000.
Hon. J. A. MacKINNON (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Chairman, on Saturday evening when my departmental estimates were called a few moments before closing time the hon. member for Humboldt asked me if I would make a statement on the reorganization work in connection with the Department of Trade and Commerce for the last year or two. He asked that I refer specially to the trade representatives that we have in the various countries, where they are located and the general developments within the Department of Trade and Commerce looking to Canada's trade position in the postwar period. In submitting the estimates for my department I am therefore making a brief statement on some of the more important aspects of the work which was carried out by the department last year and on its plans to help maintain Canada's place as one of the world's great trading nations.
To meet the new problems which face us in world trade, the division in the department formerly known as the commercial intelligence service has been reorganized and is now known as the foreign trade service. It is under the direction of the new deputy minister of the department, Mr. M. W. Mackenzie. It has six main branches, the trade commissioners service, the export division, the import division, the commercial relations and foreign tariffs division, the trade publicity division, and the wheat and; grain division. I should like to comment briefly on the duties of each of these divisions.
We intend to have trade commissioners stationed in every major trading centre in the world where the appointment of such a representative will contribute to the enlargement
of Canadian commerce. The offices in Paris and Brussels were reopened some months ago and trade commissioners have been assigned to the Netherlands and to Norway. An office will also be opened in the near future in Stockholm, and a trade commissioner is being sent to Greece to be attached to the embassy there and to supervise our trade relations in Turkey and the Balkan countries as well. Following the resumption of private trade with French North and West Africa, a trade commissioner has been sent to Algiers on a special mission to explore trading opportunities there and to establish sound trade connections for Canadian exporters interested in that market. An office will be opened in Venezuela early in 1946.
A senior trade commissioner has been assigned to Australia and an additional officer appointed in New Zealand. A special representative is to proceed to the Netherlands East Indies to assist in reopening our trade with that area. We are sending a senior officer to South Africa early next year to strengthen our representation there. Specialist trade commissioners in agricultural and forestry products have also been appointed, and they will have duties not only in the United Kingdom but in Europe and elsewhere.
Then, we have been fortunate in securing the services of some excellent young men from the armed forces as assistant trade commissioners. In conformity with government policy, applications were considered only from men with overseas service. We have been highly gratified with the number and calibre of these young men who wish to continue to serve Canada abroad. Six assistant trade commissioners and one specialist trade commissioner have already proceeded to foreign posts; two more are leaving shortly; fourteen additional assistant trade commissioners are now in training. Nine additional assistants will join the department in March or April. This makes a total of thirty new assistant trade commissioners who are now at work or will join the trade commissioner service shortly. This indicates the importance we attach to having a strong body of commercial representatives abroad.
Before the war we had thirty-four offices abroad, manned by thirty-five trade commissioners and twenty-five assistant trade commissioners. During the war the number of offices declined1, of course, by the enforced closing of those in Berlin, Oslo, Rotterdam, Brussels, Paris, Milan, Singapore, Hong Kong. Shanghai and Tokyo. To-day we have thirty-one offices located abroad, with forty trade commissioners and seven assistant trade com-

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missioners assigned to them. As I have just said, we intend to establish offices almost immediately in Sweden, Greece, Venezuela and the Netherlands East Indies; we shall have representation in Italy as soon as practicable, and our offices in Singapore, Hong Kong and Shanghai will be reopened as soon as the trading position permits.
We have had only two specialist trade commissioners in London for some time past. This phase of our work abroad will be expanded; in addition to those officers who have devoted their attention to animal products and fruit, we will send a timber trade commissioner to the United Kingdom, and it is our intention to appoint a fisheries products trade commissioner at a later date. We are also selecting officers with agricultural training to be assigned to other countries, including north Europe, Argentina and Australia.
Our trade commissioners will be responsible not only for the sale of Canadian goods in the territories in which they are stationed, but also for the encouragement of imports into Canada in recognition of the principle that trade can flourish only if it is mutually profitable and is being conducted1 on a twoway basis. The promotion of exports abroad will, of course, remain the primary responsibility of our trade commissioners, but their new and enlarged duties give them greater opportunities for rendering service to Canada and in helping to establish a sound balance between our export and' our import policies.
We have recently held a special conference of our trade commissioners of Latin-America. Despite the restrictions on normal trade imposed by war conditions, Canada's trade with Latin-America has shown a seventy per cent increase in exports and a 400 per cent increase in imports. It should be emphasized that this remarkable increase in imports has taken place because the Latin-American countries have provided many essential raw materials for Canada's manufacturing industries during the war. Our exports for the first nine months of this year are nearly double our total exports for all of 1939. Our export trade with the countries in Latin-America I visited in 1941 as head of a special Canadian trade mission, that is Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Ecuador, Peru and Uruguay, has more than doubled. For the first nine months ending September 1945, our export trade with these countries amounted to nearly $24,000,000 as compared with $10,000,000 for a similar period in 1939. We hope soon to reestablish direct shipping routes to the Latin-American countries instead of routing our goods through the United States, and this should increase our trade with Latin-American countries to a substantial degree.

The figures as shown in the return in connection with our imports from Latin-American countries are misleading inasmuch as no record is shown of the very large quantities of imports that come to us through United States channels. From one country alone, Colombia, a most important volume of merchandise is imported to Canada which does not show in our ordinary Canadian figures.
Our trade with Latin America was perhaps not given as much attention in the past as this great market merited. We believe that Canada is destined to enjoy a steadily growing trade with these nations. It may not be too optimistic to believe that our export trade with Latin America can reach $200 million a year in the immediate future, provided that Canadian exporters pay the attention to this market which its potential importance warrants. Our export trade with Mexico alone, for example, we hope will rise to $60 million a year.
The export planning division was organized in August, 1943, under the direction of one of the department's senior trade commissioners recalled from overseas duty for this purpose. The principal function of the export planning division has been to prepare a programme, in cooperation, where necessary, with the combined planning authorities in Washington, of exports from Canada of essential commodities required by overseas countries to maintain their national economies. The division also arranged that even where goods were in short supply there at least was a movement of merchandise to our old markets, so that Canada could maintain at least token trade with our old customers during the prevailing period of scarcity. The results of this policy are already evident in the pattern of our postwar trade. This division in 1945 prepared some seventy commodity and country programmes. This work involved close cooperation with the appropriate combined board in Washington and with the external trade advisory committee in Ottawa on which various departments are represented.
With the organization of a foreign trade service in the department effective November 1, 1945, the export planning division ceased to exist. The work of the division will largely be absorbed in the new export division which will have special responsibilities in the planning of our trade with the British empire, the West Indies, Europe, France, the far east and Latin America.
Since the import division was established last year, more than 1,700 Canadian agents and import houses have registered with it. The division received1 numerous inquiries from

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Canadian importers for information on foreign supply conditions, foreign export controls, shipping regulations, foreign price levels and currency exchange restrictions. The import division has been working in close cooperation with the various foreign government trade representatives in Canada, and much business as a result has come to this country which might otherwise have been lost.
The division of commercial relations and that of foreign tariffs have, recently been combined to perform the work that was formerly done by each division separately or in various other parts of the department. The primary duty of the foreign tariffs section is to promote Canadian export trade by furnishing information on customs tariffs and other trade regulations as they prevail in the world with particular reference to Canadian trade. In the negotiation of trade treaties the commercial relations division bears special responsibili-;ies. It has been most active in studying our trade with the United Kingdom, the United States, the sterling area and Latin-America. The results of this long preparatory work will be evident in the very near future.
We are planning a notable expansion in our trade publicity programme including the work of the exhibitions branch, which has necessarily been curtailed during the war years.
While Canada's Mutual Aid programme commenced in September, 1943, the 1944-45 fiscal year was the first full fiscal year of operation for the wheat and grain division.
, Mutual Aid operations for the division began with the shipment of wheat and flour to the United Kingdom. The imported cereals division of the United Kingdom ministry of food continued their purchases as agents of the department, while this division undertook responsibility for the disbursement of Mutual Aid and United Kingdom cash funds in settlement of deliveries against ministry of food contracts.
In August, 1943, flour was first shipped to the U.S.S.R. under a Soviet credit agreement. Upon the exhaustion of these funds in January, 1944, shipments were made under Mutual Aid, and toward the end of that year wheat cargoes were added to the Russian programme.
Beginning in November, 1944, as part of Canada's military relief contribution, a substantial volume of wheat moved overseas. Here again the division assumed responsibility for disbursement of military occupation relief funds.
The shipment of gift wheat to Greece for relief commenced in August, 1942, at a rate of approximately 15,000 long tons a month. Grain accounts were approved for payment by the 47696-209
division from funds set up under the War Appropriation Act. Relief wheat shipments continued up until April 1,1945, when UNRRA assumed full financial responsibility for the distribution of relief supplies in Greece. I had the privilege of mentioning once before the reception which Canada's gift of wheat to Greece received in that country at the time of her great necessity. People in high government circles in Greece informed us that the shipment of Canadian wheat to Greece actually saved hundreds of thousands of lives.
Relief wheat loadings were resumed as part of Canada's contribution to UNRRA. In addition to wheat, substantial quantities of Canadian flour were also included in the UNRRA programme. Flour contracts were placed directly with the mills against UNRRA purchase orders, with the division also handling disbursement of funds for UNRRA account.
The Exports Credits Insurance Act which was passed on August 15, 1944-in my reference to this act I shall deal only with that part which comes directly under the Department of Trade and Commerce, namely, part I-provided for the setting up of a corporation to insure exporters against the main risks of loss involved in foreign trade. This corporation, called the Exports Credits Insurance Corporation, was proclaimed on November 21, 1944. Two of the senior officers of the corporation visited the United Kingdom this summer to study the operations and experience of the export credits guarantee department which functions there under the board of trade-a government department-and which has operated successfully for the past twenty-six years. The results of this long British experience are being incorporated in the policy and practice of the Exports Credits Insurance Corporation. Canadian exporters from all parts of Canada have taken out policies with the corporation and these include small business houses as well as large concerns. Individual annual sales volumes covered by the insurance range from $50,000 to $3,000,000. Commodities covered by the policies already written include raw materials, agricultural products and manufactured goods.
During the last fiscal year the dominion bureau of statistics, in addition to carrying out its normal duties, had to discharge heavy responsibilities in preparing statistical information required by the various branches of government service engaged in our war effort. In addition it carried out detailed studies to meet the needs of post-war reconstruction.

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An important item of the bureau's programme is the development of improved service to Canadian business. It is planned to issue monthly statistical tables showing the production, shipments and stocks of the more important commodities. This new practice will result in the early publication of current statistics required by Canadian business. At the same time this up-to-date statistical service will enable various departments of the government to have special data to assist them in the formulation of policy.
It will be recalled that the government white paper of April, 1945, on employment and income set up as a practical and desirable target for our post-war exports the figure of one and three-quarter billion dollars annually at current prices for merchandise exports and non-monetary gold. This would be about sixty per cent above the pre-war level in dollar value but only about fifteen per cent higher in the amount of goods exported. We believe, on the strength of our present trading relationships and future trends in our trade which we can now define, that this objective will be realized. The promotion of our trade is in the very forefront of the government's entire programme of reconstruction, and the Department of Trade and Commerce is discharging direct responsibilities in helping to realize the objectives of this programme.
Mr. Chairman, I have covered some of the reorganization work which has been taking place in the Department of Trade and Commerce in the last year or two, so that it will be in a position to promote Canada's trade, which we feel is wholly necessary to the maintenance of our national prosperity.


Mr. BURTON:: Mr. Chairman, it is indeed a pleasure to have an opportunity of thanking the minister for the comprehensive statement he has made in connection with the affairs of his department. I was thinking, during the time that he was giving us that interesting resume, that it is too bad he stopped me as soon as he did on Saturday evening after I had put a few questions on the record as to what we would be interested in, because if he had waited a little while longer he would have had so much subject material that he would have made a record speech this evening, if he had done with the rest of it as he did with the questions I put to him.
While I am in the mood for passing compliments I will continue in the same strain for a little while. Some weeks ago I had the pleasure of complimenting the Minister of Agriculture in connection with a little booklet which his department was putting out and which is of great service and information to those of us who are interested in the pro-

duction of live stock. To-night, first, because I do not want to be accused of playing favourites, and, second, because I really do appreciate what the department has done in this direction, I wish to mention the booklet, which is called the "Monthly Review of the Wheat Situation," put out by the department under the authority of the minister. I thank the minister and the officials of his department for the work which is connected with it and for the comprehensive information which it contains. But in that connection I would say that there is one criticism I have to offer. As the government through the agency of the Canadian wheat board has handled the product of the labour, one might say the sweat, of the people who produced that wheat, there should be included in this book or a similar book, at least once a year, a full accounting of the activities of the wheat board. I make that suggestion to the minister, because it is of great importance to the people who produce Canada's wheat. The book is of real value to those of us farmers who have an opportunity to peruse it from time to time.
The department is also issuing other booklets and information. The minister referred to certain statistics concerning other dealings, especially those relating to Canadian business. I would suggest that the minister and his department prepare in summarized form for the information of members as well as the public generally, a sort of over-all summary of the business of the country. While I appreciate his view that some of us are especially interested in wheat, we want him to understand that we are also much interested in the business of Canada as a whole, and would value an opportunity of seeing such an over-all picture from time to time.
I listened with great attention and a considerable amount of pleasure to the minister's statement in connection with our trade representatives in different parts of the world. It is an evidence that the government recognizes its responsibility and the necessity of preparing and being prepared for the years in the immediate future. Especially was I pleased to observe the note which crept into the minister's report where he stated that the duties of these men would also now include matters respecting importations into Canada as well as the exportations. I was pleased with that, because we have known for a long time that if we are to have a healthy condition of trade it must be a trade which will balance. If it does not balance, eventually we shall find ourselves confronted with a condition in which it has become so unbalanced as to be unwieldy and unmanageable.

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But I would suggest that, as much as we as a nation are concerned with the exporting of our surplus goods and with importations for our requirements, we must not forget that part of the trade which is of vital concern to every Canadian, namely, the trade within the boundaries of our own country. We have in this dominion a tremendous consuming -power. I am sure I am speaking not only for myself but for every member of this house when I say that never again do we want a condition to develop in this country whereby apples in British Columbia are rotting and children in the prairie provinces cannot get apples; where people in the central provinces of Ontario and Quebec have their factories closed because they cannot dispose of the goods which they produce, while in other parts of the country there are people whose supply of those goods is most meagre, the least that they can get along with. We do not want to have a return of that condition in Canada, and consequently trade within our own country is of the greatest importance. I suggest that the proper approach to that question is, first of all, the recognition of the importance of a little planning. I do not want hon. members to be frightened when we use that term. We must use a little ordinary common sense and business judgment. In arriving at what the requirements of the people are, we must be able to plan how to supply those requirements. I suggest, therefore, that planning is not something to run away from, but something that is simply good, plain, ordinary business judgment.
We need to find out, in the first place, how much the people need of the various products we can produce, how much they need of the various things we can manufacture, and then proceed as far as possible to supply our own home market and to see to it that the people within the boundaries of this country have an opportunity to consume to the fullest extent. Then, when that is accomplished, it devolves upon the Department of Trade and Commerce to provide us with markets to which we can export our surpluses and, in return for those surpluses, we must be prepared' to channel back into the country, by means of exchange in one way or another, the things that we cannot economically produce in Canada and which we need here in order to round out a full and high standard of living.
I contend that within the boundaries of a country like Canada the standard of living that the people will have depends entirely upon the productive ability of the nation. It is true that we cannot consume all our wheat, but we can certainly use other things for 47696-209i
which wheat can be exchanged. We can use things that are not easily produced in this country, and that is where trade will help our people to make the fullest possible use of the things they produce.
As we go on we find ourselves sometimes in a peculiar position, and I would suggest that in planning production and distribution of the goods we require within the country we must again use a little more common sense than was used in the thirties when there existed the condition to which I referred a moment ago. Even now we are in the midst of another difficult situation. Hon. members will recall, for instance, a statement which was made in the house that in the neighbourhood of eighty per cent of the lumber of the country was being exported.


An hon. MEMBER:: Forty-two per cent.


Joseph William Burton: I am corrected by one of my colleagues who says it was forty-two per cent. I thought it was higher; but, even so, forty-two per cent is a considerable amount. We were given an explanation of that, but we find ourselves in this position to-day. There are in Canada thousands of people who are urgently in need of suitable living quarters, and yet at the same time a vast amount of our timber is being exported. In one of the explanations given to us we were told that we cannot very well cut down on the export of that timber because we need the dollar to balance our trade or to carry on our trade. Here is the ironical situation. At the same time we are importing coal from the same country to which we are exporting lumber. We are importing coal to help our people to keep warm in houses which they do not have-a queer contradiction. There is a strange situation for you. It certainly -would help to balance our trade a little better if we used some more Alberta coal on the one side and a little more Nova Scotia coal on the other. It would help to keep our people in useful production and keep down the number of United States dollars that we need. If -we did that, then possibly we might have a few more sticks of lumber which we need in order to put up a few more houses to accommodate our people.
We must remember that the first call on the productive ability of our people is a decent standard of living. I do not want hon. members to misunderstand me when I make that statement. I was exceedingly pleased when the minister mentioned the quantity of foodstuffs that had been shipped through Mutual Aid to other countries and he referred to Greece. The thought came to me that this is truly a modern exemplification of casting one's bread upon the waters.
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I submit that the people of Canada are all not only prepared but anxious to give all the assistance they can to those who are in such dire need. In passing, I would remind the minister and hon. members that while our farmers are proud of the fact that they can play some little part in helping to make the provision of that food possible for people who need it so urgently, we farmers should not be asked to carry the entire load of these gifts.
The minister referred to the continuous expansion now taking place and mentioned the trade representatives to other countries. Again, I am pleased that he has taken such early action. It occurred to me that while going along in this way, there is still something lacking, and I hope the minister will not hold it against me too much for having that feeling. But there was something that I could not make click, and finally it struck me that possibly some branch of the department was lagging behind.
Let me put it in this way. I remember years ago when I was a small boy-possibly I should have been going to school at the time if there had been a school nearby-[DOT] when I was helping to break open my father's homestead which is part of the farm I am now on. I was driving a yoke of oxen hitched to the plough. We went down one side and laid over a furrow and came back the other side and laid another furrow. In fact, Mr. Chairman, I am sometimes reminded of my early experience when we want to get a little work done in this house. It is a slow process; but we kept plodding along and we got the furrows laid together.
Later on, in the middle twenties, I believe I was the first farmer east of Saskatoon who had a one-way plough that cut a strip eight and a half feet wide and would travel along at three and a half to four miles an hour. Later on, I again was the first farmer in my community to have a rubber-tired tractor and a rubber-tired combine. People used to come for miles around to see that rubber-tired tractor work, and they would say: "Well, Joe, it is working all right now, but wait until we get a little shower of rain and you will be hollering for someone with a lug tractor to come and pull you out." There are very few tractors going out into that part of the country to-day or were in the years gone by which are not equipped with rubber tires. The point I wish to drive home to the minister is that at this time when he is preparing to send trade envoys to different parts of the world he could send them in planes, if necessary, travelling at 500 miles an hour. We have those modern means of

transportation and communication, and yet there is too much of that old oxen-day psychology left in our trading.
I should like the minister to give consideration to bringing his department up to date. I ask him to bring it up to date where it will meet the requirements and our ability to make use of the modern means which are now at our disposal. I should like to see our trade representatives in different parts of the world advertising our goods. They should be looked upon as salesmen; they should also encourage trade coming the other way. I wish to bring to his attention and to the attention of the members of the committee that we have reached a different position- in the commerce of the world. We have now come to a time where we find nation after nation abandoning the idea of the different people interested in trade running here and there trying to sell their wares. They now sell as a nation. In other words, they sell to you and they buy from you in bulk quantities through a government board. I have no hesitation in asking the Minister of Trade and Commerce and the members of this committee to consider seriously if the time has not come-in fact in the opinion of some of us it is long overdue-when -we should have import and export boards which will in an intelligent and businesslike manner help the people who produce the wealth of the nation to export their surpluses and1 in return import the things they need over -and above the things they can produce.


Thomas Farquhar: I did not want to interrupt the hon. member while he was speaking, but he spoke of the export of timber and mentioned forty-two per cent. Did that include the export of pulpwood?


Joseph William Burton: That is marketable timber. There is no doubt that I gave a higher figure, and I was corrected -by my colleague, but the figure I gave was marketable timber.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Before I commence my brief re-marks-and- they will be brief, although if it were earlier in the session I would make a longer speech-I should like to say a few words of appreciation to the minister. For many years sales promotion has been my middle name, or at least it was my middle name when I was in -business. First of all, I wish to express my own appreciation of the minister's great courtesy and civility to people I have had occasion to take to see the minister on the question of sales promotion. On the occasions I have gone to see him I have found him a perfect gentleman, most courteous and considerate. Those whom I took to see him have on more than one occasion

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written to me and asked me to convey their personal appreciation to him. I do not know whether he was ever in big business, as I was, but if he were not in big business in his earlier days, I can tell him that he would have made an excellent sales manager. I always look upon a minister of trade and commerce as the sales manager for the country in a big way. Anything I say to-night will be said with the hope that I may be of some slight help to him in his sales promotion work.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Do not try to sell ice-cream to the Eskimos.


John Ritchie MacNicol: He has a big job in looking after all the various matters in which we Canadians are engaged. I am not going to touch upon the problem which was mentioned by the hon. member for Melfort; I am going to confine my brief remarks to machinery. Machinery has many ramifications and lines as have other lines of manufacturing. Because Canadian industry has expanded its productive capacity so tremendously during the war, the minister now has an extra job placed on his shoulders in assisting and disposing of what can be made in this greatly expanded machinery productive capacity of Canada. I do not refer to plants that were engaged in the making of munitions, many of which are now being dismantled. I refer to the old-line companies which have a reputation throughout the world and which, as a result of the war, have vastly expanded their capabilities to produce.
When I heard the minister speak about more trade commissioners I said to myself, that is a good thing, that is a real step in the right direction. I turned up the list of trade commissioners in the back of the estimates and I counted forty-nine. I should like to see the department have many times that number of trade commissioners. I believe that is what the minister has in mind. If the minister is able to obtain the services of a large number of capable men in all lines of our country's productive activity, men who are not only experts in their lines of production, but who have all the other necessary qualifications that the department insists on, education, ability to talk, and so forth, I am sure that a great job can be done. In that regard I, too, am convinced that we have an opportunity to expand greatly our efforts in South America. Of course we are up against, and will be up against the greatest manufacturing nation in the world. I mean, of course, the great and friendly republic to the south, for whom all hon. members have a warm feeling in their hearts. They are most capable
of handling this work, through their many brilliant salesmen, many of whom I have met. We, too, shall have to select the best we can.
I have been thinking that perhaps the Department of Trade and Commerce, through some of the universities, might be able to persuade our universities to institute classes in Spanish.


James Angus MacKinnon: That is being done.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am glad to hear that.


James Angus MacKinnon: In many places.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Then, I would extend
the possibilities along that line, taking in the university of Toronto, and1 universities in Montreal and Winnipeg.


James Angus MacKinnon: And Alberta.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Yes, Alberta.


James Angus MacKinnon: These universities, I believe, are all giving lessons in Spanish.


John Ritchie MacNicol: And Saskatchewan, too, because I like to say what I can to help any development in Saskatchewan. We do not think of them as often as we should.
That is a step in the right direction, because there is great business to be had in South America. Now, in my day I was a sales promoter. It is one of the joys of my life that I had so much to do with creating a large and honest business, the largest of its kind in the British empire, from a small beginning. That was the result of sales promotion. I do not for one moment claim that credit, myself; far from it. But we were able to select the most capable engineers of our time and in our line of business. I always found that if we sent the most capable engineers we could to Russia-as we did- and to Germany, and to France, and to the other countries in Europe, as well as to those in South America and South Africa, that we were able to dispose of large quantities of goods.
In Ontario, of which I wish to speak for a few minutes, we have many great manufacturing cities. They will need every ounce of assistance-and perhaps that is not the right word, but if we take it collectively, and then add it all up, one will get the right idea-that the department can give.
For instance, let us consider the city of our chairman, Brantford. I believe it is the fourth or fifth greatest manufacturing city in this country. That is a great thing to be said about a city in western Ontario with a population of perhaps less than 40,000.
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Then I think of the city of my hon. friend the member for Peterborough West, who sits behind me. Peterborough is one of the finest cities in Canada, one in which there is very rarely any degree of unemployment. It is more or less self-contained, with an area of fine country surrounding it.
I could go on throughout Ontario, and mention Stratford, Chatham-


David Arnold Croll: Windsor.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am thinking of the big cities; yes, Windsor. Then Welland, St. Catharines-


Mr. CASSELMAN:: Prescott.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I said I was speaking
about the big cities. But that is no reflection on Prescott, because I can tell my hon. friend I used to live in Prescott, when I was a boy, and I have seen some fine plants there. In fact, I got my own start in the business life of Canada, in the town of Prescott. I got it in a company which at that time made disc harrows. I believe it was the first company in Canada to m ;ke disc harrows, and it was a very fine firm which came in from the United States. Perhaps my hon. friend will remember the Corbin Disc Harrow Company. Now that I have mentioned the name of his town, perhaps my hon. friend will not mind if I proceed. However, I do not think I shall mention any other names of towns.
The country is full of them. I might refer, too, to the province of Quebec, and to places like Sherbrooke, St. Hyacinthe, Three Rivers, and the city of Hull, which is just across the river from this fine city of Ottawa. Plants in all those cities will be grateful for any assistance the department can give.
I have been wondering what programme the department will follow. I understand that there are trade commissioners in Rio de Janeiro. Have we only one, or have we a dozen? That is a city of perhaps a million and a half or two million people.


James Angus MacKinnon: About two million.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Yes; and then there is
Buenos Aires, with a population of several millions. I look at pictures of these fine cities with their magnificant buildings and institutions, universities and halls, and I at once think of their requirements in the matter of vacuum cleaners, elevators, and all those things which enter into the construction of big buildings. There are multitudes of articles of that kind in the manufacture of which Canadians are expert. I have been wondering, myself, in what way our trade commissioners have been able to promote these various lines of sales. [Mr. MacNicol.l
Our American cousins can do it-and do do it. I hope we have been making some of those sales, and have followed the same methods.
We have Canadian manufacturers for a thousand and one lines of these goods which we could sell in other countries, including the people in South America, and I am wondering how we proceed to make those sales. Do we operate through trade commissioners? If so, are they qualified to lay out blue-prints as to how this or that equipment is to be installed. In my day that was the type of man I engaged. All the company engineers who went throughout Europe and America took their direction from me. They were qualified experts in their line, and they were able to get big orders. And of course big orders mean employment. That is what I am thinking about. I am thinking of the thousands of men back in Davenport riding, a great manufacturing riding, who make their living through the manufacture of goods. I am thinking of providing orders for factories in that and in all other manufacturing ridings, so that the men engaged in them can have jobs. That is going to be our great problem from now on. I have been thinking of that, and I hope the department will consider this matter.
Looking through the records only a few minutes ago, I found that in 1944 we made about a billion and a half dollars worth of machinery alone machinery made from iron and steel. That was tremendous production, but I am sure that to-day, with our enormously expanded production equipment in our great plants, we can surpass even that amount.
I have in mind one great plant in the constituency of Wentworth. That is one of the finest institutions in the world. I refer to the John Bertram Machinery company. That may not be the modern name for it, but that was what it was called when I used to be in business. Perhaps to-day it is called the Bertram Machinery company. They have a staff of about 4,000 and they are by far the largest permanent old-line machine tool industry in Canada.
That is only one of a dozen I could name. Only a few days ago I had occasion to go to a plant. I go to as many plants as I can, because I like visiting them. When I smell the oil and smell the steel curling from the lathes, I feel that I am -back home again, where I used to be years ago. That plant had an order for 200 big machines for shipment to Europe.
That is -only one company. Do our trade commissioners interest themselves in matters of that kind? I apn sure they do. Are they trying to get some of that new business with

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France? Are they getting business with Gar-many-because it has to be rebuilt? I am not one of those who wish to see Germany forever crushed. I cannot bring myself to a decision of that kind. They were our enemies,' but we defeated them, and we are told to forgive our enemies.
Germany, Belgium, France and all those other countries in Europe that have been destroyed will have to be rebuilt. There is big business over there. Their plants are destroyed. One of the nations-and I am not mentioning which one-has dismantled many of their plants and taken them to its own country. But plants will have to be reestablished, and we can get some of that business.
In what way are our trade commissioners in Canada qualified to describe these things to purchasers in Germany, France, Russia, Belgium, Holland, Italy or wherever they may go; will they have the qualifications to be able to explain just how these machines operate, what it will mean to them if they buy them, how much faster they go, how much more they can produce and how much they will cut down their cost of production? Mr. Chairman, you know that it was the ability to operate at a low cost of production that has enabled the many fine manufacturing plants in your city to expand. The same applies to my riding where there are many manufacturing institutions.
We hear a lot about foreign affairs and the foreign affairs committee; everybody wants to be on the foreign affairs committee. In my judgment the time has come to have a home affairs committee, and the bigger it is the better. After all, Canada is in the manufacturing business and it must sell at home seventy-five to eighty per cent of the goods produced in Canada. Canada is our greatest market. We want all the foreign business we can get, but our big market is the home market. When I was studying commerce at the university in the United States we were taught that the United States had to export only ten per cent of what it produced. That meant that it consumed the other ninety per cent at home. I got it into my mind at that time that home affairs were of vast importance, of much more importance than foreign affairs.
Of course I know that if we cannot sell our surplus products it cuts down the price and increases unemployment here at home. I am strong for foreign exports, but I am also strong for home exports to the various provinces in Canada. I should like the minister to tell us what his department is doing to promote sales in Canada. We must remember that every manufacturing country is going to
send its salesmen here-I have met them in the last two days-to place on the markets of Canada that which is being produced elsewhere. How are we to compete with them? Is this to be done through the Canadian manufacturers' association, that wonderful body of men which, despite everything that is said about them, has done so much to build up this country. I love those men who have done such great things for Canada and who have provided employment for so many hundreds of thousands of men. I am not going to enter into any argument on that phase, but I know that if you treat your men as they should be treated, and as I always treated them, they will produce more for you. If the workmen like the people they are working for they will do more work for them. After all, malingering and staying off the job does not cut down costs, and that is the main thing. You do not cut costs by cutting down your rate of wages in employment. You must keep men on the job working with earnest hearts so that the company they work for can make the best goods in the shortest time. When the minister speaks again I should like him to tell us what the department intends to do to promote sales in Canada. We must not forget that we shall be up against the ablest men that can be sent from other manufacturing countries, including the United States. They will be out to get a market in Canada. We cannot blame them, but we want to keep our own home market if we can, because that is the best for us. '


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Mr. Chairman, I wish to congratulate the hon. member for Davenport upon what he has just said, because I agree with him that we have to keep our home market. After the last war we lost the home market and we did not have exports. When the Minister of Trade and Commerce read his statement he referred to the fact that Canada is to have a direct route to South and Central America. I am glad to know that, because I am familiar with the difficulties that Canada has been having in the movement of goods back and forth between this country and South and Central America.
I should like to- suggest to the minister that in the advertising in South and Central America he have some design which would show Canada as part of the Americas. Canada could be shown as being linked with the South and Central American countries by means of the Alaska highway and the PanAmerican highway which runs down into Mexico, Guatemala, then dov/n through the Central American countries of Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama,
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Colombia, Peru and Chile, and then there is the fine paved highway from Chile across to Buenos Aires.
There are many people in South America who still think of Canada as a land of ice and snow. I know a little about the people in South and Central America. I would suggest that in the not too distant future the minister make another trip to South America. I should like to go down there with him.


An hon. MEMBER:: So would I.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I travelled many miles in South and Central America and I enjoyed every one of them. The minister did not spend enough time the last time he was there; he did not stay long enough in each place he visited. I know that, because I have had reports on the minister's trip down there.


An hon. MEMBER:: Tell us some more.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The minister behaved himself. What I am getting at is the fact that the South American people are highly cultured. This is especially true of Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Peru, Colombia and also the Central American countries. Those people like a person to come to their country and stay there, not for a week but for two or three weeks or more; you cannot know the people of South America in a week. The minister knows that you cannot go to South America and sell a bill of goods in a day. You cannot go to a man down there and say, "I have a machine here that is better than anything you ever saw before and I want to sell it to you." You do not do business like that down there; you have to get to know the people.


An hon. MEMBER:: There are good looking women there.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Yes; there are good looking women there, some of the best in the world'. I have seen them down there. They are fine women.


The CHAIRMAN:: I must remind the hon. member that we are discussing the estimates of the Department of Trade and Commerce.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: If by any chance I have been side-tracked, it has been with good intentions. When hon. members have a chance to have a holiday again-we have not had one since 1939-they should go to South and Central America to see the country and to get to know the people.
As I was saying, it takes time to sell them goods. The Canadian trade commissioners should know their way around down there. They know how difficult it is to get to know the men who do the buying, and it takes almost a month and perhaps longer to gain

the confidence of the people. Hon. members may smile, but I have a great love for the people of South America, and if the minister takes another trip down there he should spend more time in each country and also visit every country in Central America. The Pan-American highway is nearly completed except for the section in Panama, and that is coming along. The rest of the highway is for the most part paved or all-weather road, except for a few spots, but with the help of the United States government that highway is coming along, and I feel sure that Canada can not only hold the market she now has in South and Central America, but increase her imports and exports, because trade is, of course, a two-way business. My own city of Peterborough and the workmen there depend a great deal upon export trade. We have to have it. Most of our factories are American owned factories and they export their products to the different parts of the empire. I am very much interested in developing that trade, but if we had also a direct shipping route to Central and South America I am sure that it would help our factories in Peterborough.
I should like to compliment the minister upon putting in the Commercial Intelligence -I do not know whether he is doing it or those in his department-the resources of the different countries. In the December 8 issue, for instance, the resources and trade of Ecuador are given, and in another issue the resources and trade of another South American country. I think it is an excellent idea to cover all the South American countries in this way. But there is one thing that I have missed in the Commercial Intelligence, which is issued every week by the department. In the back there used to be a page or so of articles that are required by certain countries. It would say: Inquiries have been made from such and such a country for such and such articles. I have not seen that feature in Commercial Intelligence lately, and I always thought it was a very good idea.


Mr. HODGSON:: Mr. Chairman, after
strolling around through Bretton Woods and looking back at Dumbarton Oaks, if I were not an experienced lumberman I might have got lost in the bush. I hope that what I shall say will be brief, constructive and cooperative.
I notice by this blue book that the costs of nearly every department are up, and in several instances trade is down. When you hire a man to do a job for you, you expect him to do a little better job if you give him a little more money, so that with these increased expenditures we shall expect some good work and more efficiency in the days to come.

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I should like to speak of lumber particularly. I do not want to discuss agriculture, because the hon. member for Humboldt has spoken of the agricultural industry and I do not want to repeat what he said. When he ploughed that wide furrow and that narrow furrow he reminded me of my own political ancestors ploughing the straight and narrow furrow back in 1934. But I do' not want to go back to the bad years of the 1930's.
In the provinces of Ontario and Quebec the subsidies were taken off cordwood last fall, at a time when I think they should have been kept on, because at that period of the year we need to take out large quantities of cord-wood which would help our trade balance with the United States and be an off-set to our coal imports and such like.
It has been said that the returned men are not- going back to the bush. I want to contradict that, because I have ten boys back from overseas who are working in my bush operations at the present time.
The lumbermen are going ahead and taking out a certain amount of lumber. They produced lumber all through the war period and we can produce lumber in the peace period; in fact I am sure that a lot more can be produced in the future than in the past if the prices are right. You remember, sir, what happened in 1929 after the last war to practically all the lumber business in Canada. We have ceiling prices on lumber, and if you want the lumbermen to go ahead, floor prices should be set because the lumbermen are fearful of what happened before. But if you set floor prices and readjust your ceiling prices I am sure we can produce more lumber than before.
So far as soft woods are concerned, which are used in the building trades, there is very little of that for export. I would speak especially of hemlock. It costs more to produce hemlock than spruce or pine, and at the same time the price is lower. Hemlock, practically ninety-five per cent of which is used in the building trades for home consumption, should have better prices set, a price that would at least allow a man to take it out at cost. In the past few years we lumbermen have taken out hemlock more or less from patriotic motives. But the war is over and the same feeling does not exist. If you want lumber taken out for the building trades in Canada, raise the price of hemlock by two or three dollars a thousand and put in floor prices.
So far as building up our export trade is concerned, the higher grades of No. 1 common and better are the grades of hardwood we export. I would say that you should 47696-210
throw the quota system into the waste-paper basket and let us export our higher grades of hardwood. The lower grades of hardwood go to our flooring plants in Canada. Our largest business has been and will be with Great Britain. That trade with Great Britain was built up after the empire economic conference which was held here in Ottawa, and I think it would be a good thing if this government called such another empire conference. That was the turning point in the depression before. We are not saying that we have a depression now or that we are going to have one, but if it was good in the time of the depression it would be that much better now.
In his statement the minister did not clarify the matter of trading or exports with Great Britain and other nations and areas of the sterling bloc. Articles have been written on it, to the effect that a certain amount of our exports are being blocked by failure to obtain import permits into these countries. I should like the minister to clarify that before this debate ends.
As regards Canada's domestic exports, in October of this year they were valued at S228 million, as against approximately S314 million in October, 1944, a decrease of a little over twenty-seven per cent. Exports to the United States in October were $88| million in round figures; in October of last year they were S123 million, which is a decrease of approximately 24J per cent. That trend cannot go on; things must be straightened out. I know it is hardly in order to pick out any particular mouth in a year like 1945. However, to straighten this out, I shall quote from an article which appeared in Saturday Night of December 1. I shall not read it all:
Meantime British refusal to grant permits to Canadian exporters of certain lines has caused considerable concern in commercial circles and the Department of Trade and Commerce has been getting anxious appeals for help.
Certain manufacturers have stated publicly that they are prepared to adopt what they think is the only sure way of obtaining a share of the British and empire market, namely, erect plants in the United Kingdom. Others, which do not find this feasible, have temporarily given up hope of sales to the United Kingdom and are pointing out that this means unemployment in the Canadian export industries.
This is the first major threat to Canada's post-war trade programme, under which a target of $1,750 million exports of Canadian produce was set, a figure said to be the minimum at which we can hope to maintain full employment in Canada. The frustration of our exporters has led in some quarters to sharp criticism of British policy. 'Some critics contend that the refusal to take Canadian goods is a deliberate action on the part of a socialist or "planned economy" government, which 'aims to

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Thomas Reid: I wonder whether the hon. member would answer a question. It relates to the price of lumber. A few minutes ago he quoted the price for hemlock as being not sufficient to pay for the charges. Would he tell the committee what they are getting for hemlock in his district?


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: An average of $40 per thousand f.o.b. cars.


Thomas Reid: Because the freight rate for British Columbia is $29.25 per thousand, and the hotel Vancouver is flooded with dealers from the hon. member's district and other districts, buying up our hemlock and cedar.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: Back in the war days when you were building this air training scheme clear across Canada, the first order came out, "Don't accept anything but spruce and pine to build these camps." Everyone knows that hemlock is just as good as and a little better than low-grade pine or spruce to build the framework of any of these air training camps. But they did not want hemlock; at the same time we had quite a bit of hemlock on our hands. I do not know the reason for that, but this might be the reason. At that time the timber controller happened to be a big lumber king from British Columbia.


Thomas Reid: We know it.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: And a dollar a year man at Ottawa.

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Thomas Reid: We know it. I protested, but it was no good.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: Whether that had anything to do with it or not I am not prepared to say, but after they got all the low-grade pine and spruce out of British Columbia and drifted across Canada they were getting short of lumber and they said, "We will take hemlock".


Thomas Reid: Of course Nicholson did not do any better.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: I am not finding fault with the government. You started finding fault.


Thomas Reid: No, no.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: I am trying to be constructive unless you drive me into criticism. I can do that too, if I have to.


Thomas Reid: No; I was looking for
information.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: But I say to the minister, try to raise the price of that hemlock when you are building up industry in Canada. Throw away your quota as far as exportation of hardwood to the United States is concerned and you will help industry and help trade with the United States. As far as the lumber industry is concerned, we can produce the lumber if the government just gives us a chance.


Mr. CASTLEDEN:: On September 19 the minister tabled order in council P.C. 6122 setting the export price of wheat at $1.55, and he referred at that time to the obligation of Canada not to take advantage of the allies in time of need; he referred also to the matter of building good will in Europe. The result has been the pegging of the price of wheat in Canada for export. Along with that is coupled the guaranteed floor price of $1 a bushel on authorized deliveries of wheat in Canada up to 1945, with $1.25 remaining for the present year; that is, until July, 1946. The question I wish to ask the minister is this. Since the producer in Canada is the one who is compelled to take the lower price on account of the pegging, to create good will for all Canada, is that policy being followed in any other department with respect to any other commodity that is being sold abroad? For instance, with bacon, do you peg the price to Canada Packers regardless of the price of bacon in the export market and compel the packer to take a lower price, or do you allow the packer to get the top price, sell it abroad at the lower price, and then pay a subsidy? And what about lumber and other products in Canada?
47696-210J
As a result of this action, a good many wheat growers feel that the primary producer takes the rap, whereas, where you have manufactured products, such as lumber, the people who have monopolies are guaranteed the top price; the people of Canada pay it, and the taxpayers make up the difference. Why not treat one the same as the other?
Another point arises out of a report that appeared in the evening Citizen, and the minister will either deny it or let us know what the situation is. It was charged in the other house that the Ottawa empire agreements had been violated by refusal on the part of Great Britain of import licences, calling upon Canada to look after her own interests. The report states: "He criticized Britain last night for what he called a brazen violation of the Ottawa empire agreements." Will the minister state whether or not-


William Ross Macdonald: Order. The hon. member is not in order in referring in this house to debates that take place in the other house.


George Hugh Castleden: I was referring to a report in the newspaper.


William Ross Macdonald: The hon. member was referring to a debate, and I must rule him out of order.


Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: I wish to direct two or three questions to the minister, and particularly the matter that arose recently in Washington where the statement was made that by reason of loan arrangements between Great Britain and the United States the British preference on many commodities would be done away with in whole or in part. That is a matter which affects the welfare of this country to a large extent, and we on this side of the house, His Majesty's opposition, have always believed that one of the most important considerations for assuring the trade of this country was the maintenance of the British preferences.
I feel that on this subject the minister should give a complete statement to the house. I was very much impressed by the remarks of the hon. member for Victoria, Ontario. He pointed out that Britain had bought before the war two or three times the quantity of stuff that was shipped to Canada, and that the importance of trade with Britain cannot be exaggerated. We believe, therefore, that we have the right to know whether or not- and I appropriate the words without reference to the speaker-there has been any brazen interference with the British preference, whether such is contemplated, and what is being done by the minister in order to prevent
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a breach in the British preference, the maintenance of which is so necessary to our future prosperity.
Much is made of the necessity of maintaining our agricultural markets in Britain and on the continent, and all of us feel that is important. We also believe that everything should be done in the way of export of agricultural products to relieve Britain's monotonous ration that has prevailed during the war.
What is being done by this country to maintain these markets abroad, in agricultural products other than wheat? I realize that in part this does not come under the minister, but it is impossible to discuss any of these subjects without occasionally encroaching upon some other department. Are Canadians today permitted to ship from Canada parcels of agricultural products such as butter and cheese, tongue and bacon and the like? The reason I ask that is that within the last three or four weeks, while the Department of Trade and Commerce is allegedly, and I believe in fact, engaged in securing markets, a very strong campaign is being waged all over Canada to induce Canadians to send overseas Danish products which will come into competition sooner or later with Canadian products. I have before me an advertisement in a recent issue of the Regina Leader that shows the extent to which this matter is being followed up in parts of the country. I will not refer to the name of the company; I will send the advertisement over to the minister.-It reads:
_ Choice of two Christmas parcels for British isles: Renowned Danish quality products packed in Copenhagen and sent by airmail, delivered within sixteen days of order. Order now. Package No. 1: two pounds butter, one pound cheese, one and seven-eighths pounds canned meat, $7.
Then package No. 2:
Two pounds butter, one pound cheese, one and seven-eighths pounds tongue.
It is the same as the other order, with this added, "Two pounds bacon" and the total is $9.45. In other words, Canadians are asked to buy Danish products to be sent to Britain to relieve the situation over there, and for two pounds bacon, including cost of transportation, one pays $2.45. Does that indicate the type of prices that are being paid to-day on the continent, profiteering that is taking place^ in this country by companies engaged in this kind of work?


James Angus MacKinnon: Will the hon. member permit me a question?


John George Diefenbaker: Yea.
[Mr. Diefenbaker.J


James Angus MacKinnon: I have not seen the advertisement referred to, but I would not wanit the impression to go out that anybody in Canada is asking that these shipments be made from Canada to the United Kingdom, and that is the way the hon. gentleman's statement sounds to me.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Chairman, I have the minister on his feet anyway now. We have not heard from him for quite a while. We are endangering our agricultural markets in connection with these products by Canadians being asked to send or permit companies to send Danish farm products into Britain, and I am asking whether or not a concerted effort is being made by the department to permit of Canadians sending Canadian farm products over there to relieve the ration situation. There are other parcels indicated which can be sent to Czechoslovakia, Finland, Holland and Scandinavia and the prices are on a par with those I have mentioned. There are still other types of parcels for transmission to Belgium, France and Holland. This has become a racket across the country, and I am surprised that the minister has not seen them because they can be found in the papers all across the country.


James Angus MacKinnon: Who is responsible for the advertising?


John George Diefenbaker: The companies that are going to make money at the expense of Canadians in Canada and probably at the expense of future Canadian trade abroad. Surely something can be done to prevent this kind of thing. I believe it was stopped once before and I think it should be stopped now. It is a serious thing if we in Canada send Canadian dollars abroad for the purpose of buying Danish farm products to be sent into Britain in competition with, or in substitution of Canadian products. I suggest that the minister should db something at once with regard to this matter.
I pass to one other matter, namely, British markets being closed to-day because of the requirements of the government of Great Britain that import licences be taken out or that Canadian industries establish themselves in the old country. That is a serious blow at empire unity, at commonwealth unity, at commonwealth trade, and to British preferences. The minister should give a statement as to what the Canadian government is doing with reference to the plan being adopted by the British government. If this policy is followed1, to what extent during the next year or two will it mean a reduction in exports from Canada to Great Britain of the products of

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the companies which will be required to establish themselves in the United Kingdom under this policy? What types of manufacturers are precluded from establishing in Britain? What type of companies in Canada will have to establish their factories over there, and to what extent will production in Canada be reduced by the denial of the British market? It is a serious matter when, one part of the British commonwealth establishes, during the existence of British preference regulations, laws or orders which prevent imports from another part of the empire subject to the British preference.


Mr.   MacI NX IS@: May I say a few words
before the minister replies to the many questions that have been raised. The question of trade is a thorny one. It is a subject that has been the theme of debate in many political battles in the Dominion of Canada. To-night some hon. members referred to their younger days. Although I am not very old, I can well remember when free trade versus protection was the stock issue in every political fight all across Canada. In these days, that issue has given place to unemployment, family allowances, unemployment insurance, health insurance, and all that sort of thing. My feeling in regard to trade and the tariff question is that the Conservatives believed in a high tariff that was not too high, and the Liberals believed in a low tariff that was not too low: but generally the tariff remained the same, no matter which party was in office. In a recent issue of the Commercial Intelligence Journal I was glad to note how quickly the trade of Canada had picked up on the ending of hostilities. There is a reason for that, and I believe it is one that Canadians must keep in mind in our trade and commercial relations with peoples in other parts of the world. The reason, of course, is that Canada and the United States, of the great trading nations of the world, were the only two countries that came out of this war with their productive facilities greatly enlarged over what they had been when they went into the war.
At the moment we are at an advantage in getting our exports into the markets of the world. We should not be too greedy in taking advantage of that. The hon. member for Davenport, who is not at the moment in his seat, asked the minister what he was doing to combat imports into this country. Surely, if we expect to sell, and if we expect the people of Canada to benefit from our export trade, we must buy. It is only in that way that we can raise our standard of living.


Thomas Reid: I bet his leader would not
raise that question.


Mr. MacINNIS:: I am not going into that. Let us remember, too, that as we find markets, and particularly markets for industrial machinery, in other parts of the world, we are paving the way for a reduction in our export trade as soon as these countries became self-sufficient. They will not stop there; they, too, will begin looking for trade in other parts of the world and they will become our competitors. Therefore there is only one solution of our problem- cooperation in the matter of trade.
A question was raised in regard to the action of the British government in imposing licences on imports from Canada. It has been said that that is a blow at the Ottawa agreements or trade preferences. Surely we should keep in mind that Britain lost almost all her export trade during the war. She put everything she had into the war. If they are now brought to the point where they have to impose restrictions on imports it amounts to this, that to-day Great Britain has to choose between imports that are essential to the life of her people and luxury imports. If she must have steel, oil, or certain essential metals, then she is going to have those instead of fur coats, diamonds, and that sort of thing. Is there any man in this house who will blame her for doing that? Is there any man in this house who would say that Canada would not do the same thing if she were in the same position? These are matters that we should keep in mind.
With the successful negotiation of the loan from the United States and perhaps another loan from the Dominion of Canada, maybe the United Kingdom can get her trade on a normal basis within a short period of time. We should continually keep in mind the condition to which the trade of the United Kingdom was reduced during six years of war, and the necessity for the government, of that country being concerned with the import of those things that are essential to the life of the people, before exporters in other parts of the world proceed to dump on them anything they may have to sell.


James Angus MacKinnon: I think it is a pity that anyone should get the impression that I got from the reading, by the hon. member for Lake Centre, of an advertisement he has taken from what appears to 'be a Winnipeg paper. I may be wrong in that; however, it is a Canadian paper.


John George Diefenbaker: The Regina Leader.


James Angus MacKinnon: The hon. member for Lake Centre has sent me over a copy of the advertisement. This is an advertisement inserted by a firm known as Western Overseas Packages, and located at 348 Main street,
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Winnipeg. It is endeavouring to get Canadians to place orders in Copenhagen for shipments of goods from Denmark to England. It is possible that some action might be taken in Canada to prevent an advertisement of that kind, but the impression I got from the hon. member's speech and from his reference to the advertisement was one which, I believe, is different from that which he would want to give the country at large. I do not believe any Canadian authority is to blame in this connection.
The hon. member for Lake Centre referred to the British preference, and asked that a full statement be made on the matter. I anticipated that when my estimates would be under consideration questions would be asked about the British preference, Bretton Woods, trade and kindred matters. But may I point out that for a considerable length of time in the house these matters have been under discussion as a result of bills introduced by the Minister of Finance, the minister directly responsible. There has been an attempt in Canada-not to-night-to make the negotiations recently concluded in Washington appear to have been trade discussions or trade agreements. The fact is that the discussions at Washington, in which delegations from the United Kingdom and the United States took part, were financial. Trade conversations were only incidental; and they were conversations only, and not negotiations. Canada is not bound in that connection by anything that took place at Washington, and, besides this, these preliminary negotiations are confidential.
The next step in connection with Great Britain's efforts to put her economy on a sound basis will be, I should imagine, the loan-discussions with Canada which, I may say, will proceed shortly, and will be followed at a later date by trade discussions between Canada and the United Kingdom, possibly in Ottawa and London. It may be a matter of weeks-possibly a few months-before those trade discussions can take place. Meantime I am urging that steps be taken to make some temporary arrangements with the United1 Kingdom to be effective until our trade negotiations can take place. It is impossible for me to give any prolonged statement respecting negotiations and discussions between Canada and the United Kingdom, as suggested by the hon. member for Lake Centre, because, as I have said, they are only starting.
Reference was made by the hon. member, and also by the hon. member for Yorkton, to an article which appeared in one of the Ottawa papers this evening in which reference was made to violations-


William Ross Macdonald: I hope the minister is not about to refer to the debate which took place in another place.


James Angus MacKinnon: I have not read closely the article referred to, although I glanced quickly at the headline, and only hurriedly through the article. No matter how much study I gave to the point raised by the hon. member for Yorkton, I could not do better than place again before the committee the statement made to the house a week or so ago when I dealt with import permits to the United Kingdom.


George Hugh Castleden: Would the minister give the committee the assurance that, as far as he knows, the Ottawa agreements have not been violated by Great Britain at this time?


James Angus MacKinnon: I shall put it in this way: I certainly do not know that they have.
The hon. member for Lake Centre also spoke about our shipping bacon and butter and other parcels to the United Kingdom. This matter was dealt with to some extent when the estimates for the Department of Agriculture were before the committee. As far as bacon is concerned, may I point out that *we are finding it impossible to maintain the bacon shipments for which we have contracted with the United Kingdom. However, there is nothing to stop any Canadian in Canada from sending a parcel of Canadian bacon to the United Kingdom.
The hon. member for Peterborough West spoke from his knowledge, and in a kindly and constructive way, with respect to Lafin-America. He has visited those countries, and knows the attitude of the people toward Canada. He will know that the people of Latin-America are anxious to trade with us, and that we stand very highly in those countries. Our goods have a reputation for high quality, reliability and dependability.
While we have not nearly as large a representation in those countries from my department or from the Department of External Affairs as have the United States or the United Kingdom, man for man I would put our trade commissioners up against those of the representatives of those other two countries.
The hon. member for Peterborough West referred to the fact that trade inquiries had been dropped from the Commercial Intelligence Journal. He is right, but I may say that a decision was arrived at recently to resume the publication of those figures and they will appear in the next issue, or very shortly in any event.

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The hon. member for Victoria, Ontario, referred to some matters in an interesting manner and with personal knowledge, but I think these are largely outside the Department of Trade and Commerce. They referred principally to timber control and the operations of the wartime prices and trade board during the war period.
I do not know whether the hon. member for Yorkton wants me to go farther into the announcements on wheat prices; that is the $1.55 price. It is not a ceiling price because there is no such thing as that; it is the price of our export wheat.
At the present time the wheat board are offering wheat for export at $1.55 a bushel. At the present time and for this crop year the floor under that price will be $125, but for the next five years the price of wheat to the producer cannot drop below $1 a bushel, Fort William or Vancouver. The hon. member for Yorkton referred also to the matter of authorized deliveries. The wheat programme and the wheat policy for next year will not be announced until after the New Year, following the usual custom. At that time the policy of. the department and of the government will be made public. Personally, I do not think that with present prospects we need worry about being able to deliver the wheat that will be grown in western Canada during the next crop year.


George Hugh Castleden: Is it not true that
order in council, P.C. 6122, stated that wheat would not be sold abroad by the Canadian wheat board at over $1.55; is that not the order in council?


James Angus MacKinnon: The order in council carrying out the decision of the cabinet stated that wheat would be offered for the time being at $1.55 a bushel.


George Hugh Castleden: Not more than $1.55.


James Angus MacKinnon: At $1.55. It is not
what the hon. member for Yorkton states; it is what I have just stated, at $1.55.


Mr. BRYCE:: Does that refer to shipments to Britain only?


James Angus MacKinnon: That is the price at which we are selling wheat for export at the present time, $1.55.


George Hugh Castleden: Is there any time limit during which that price will be maintained?


James Angus MacKinnon: There is no time limit.


William Scottie Bryce: Can any other country buy at $1.55?


James Angus MacKinnon: The Department of
Trade and Commerce and the government are endeavouring to treat all ordinary wheat importing countries on as fair a basis as possible, based on their imports during prewar years. We have given No. 1 priority to the United Kingdom and secondary priorities to our allies in the overrun countries of Europe. The great bulk of our wheat shipments is going to these countries, but a small amount of wheat and flour has been sold to Latin-American countries which were regular customers of ours during the peace years.


George Hugh Castleden: The minister stated, as reported at page 289 of Hansard:
Accordingly the government, by order in council, has instructed the Canadian wheat board to offer wheat for sale for export overseas at prices not higher than the current export price of $1.55 per bushel, basis No. 1 Northern, in store Fort William/Port Arthur or Vancouver.
That is, that Canadian wheat shall not be sold by the Canadian wheat board at a price higher than $1.55, which would be the ceiling on the export price of wheat.


James Angus MacKinnon: That is not my under-tanding of it. The intent of the department was that wheat should be offered at $1.55.


George Hugh Castleden: Not more than.


James Angus MacKinnon: At $1.55 for the time being. It does not say that the government, under a certain set of circumstances, might not find it necessary to raise that price at a later date.


George Hugh Castleden: Has any wheat been sold by the Canadian wheat board at more than $1.55?


James Angus MacKinnon: Not that I know of.


George Hugh Castleden: The United States is getting more than that for its wheat.


James Angus MacKinnon: We are getting $1.70 at seaboard as against the United States seaboard price of $2. However, Canada is selling twice as much wheat for export as is the United States at the present time. As I have explained, the people of Canada, if they saw fit, could demand and get from certain countries in their extremity just about what we wanted to ask for wheat; but looking at it from the long-range view and from many points of view beside those of dollars and cents, although they are most important, the government decided that for the time being they would offer wheat to those countries at $1.55.


George Hugh Castleden: In order to create
good will and future markets?
Supply-Trade and Commerce


James Angus MacKinnon: Partly.


George Hugh Castleden: And partly on humanitarian grounds?


James Angus MacKinnon: Partly.


George Hugh Castleden: If the Canadian people see fit to do that-and I think it is a fine gesture and one which we all support-the Canadian people as a whole should pay for it. The Canadian producer should receive the difference of thirty cents that exists between the Canadian seaboard price and the United States seaboard price. The Canadian people as a whole are going to benefit, because the people of these other countries will be sending goods to Canada. I contend that the government should make up this difference and pay a subsidy to the Canadian producer to cover the difference in price.


James Angus MacKinnon: Bound up with that price of $1.55, f.o.b. Fort William, and $1.70 seaboard, is a matter of the guarantee of a minimum of $1 a bushel for a period of five years.


John Oliver Probe: Is this wheat offered to the governments of the countries which are importing it? Is the agreement made between the wheat board and the government direct, between the importer and exporter in this country or between the wheat board and -the importer?


James Angus MacKinnon: The sale of Canadian wheat is from the Canadian wheat boaid to governments or government buying agencies in all countries, with the exception of small amounts that we sell -to a few of the Latin-American countries which have been customers of ours in peace time.


John Oliver Probe: And the price to Latin-American countries may or may not be $1.55 if they are in extremity?


James Angus MacKinnon: I do not know any that are in extremity. They have the money to pay for it and they are paying in hard cash. Small quantities are sold commensurate with their imports before the war.


John Oliver Probe: Is this wheat being used by these Latin-American countries internally, or is it being re-exported?


James Angus MacKinnon: We are thoroughly
satisfied that it is being used internally. There are people in Ottawa right to-day from these Latin-American countries wanting to buy wheat from us, and there are other countries not represented in Canada to-day who are in great need of wheat and are anxious to buy from us, but for whom we have no supplies if we are to supply the United Kingdom and our former allies overseas.


George Hugh Castleden: Are you selling through commission houses or direct from the wheat board to other governments? Is any commission paid to commission agents on the sale of this wheat?
Mr. MacKIJ\~NON: None whatever.


Mr. SINNOTT:: I would ask the hon. member for Yorkton if it would not be a better business proposition to sell 400,000,000 bushels of wheat at $1.55 rather than 200,000,000 bushels at $2?


George Hugh Castleden: I think we should sell wheat at the price we can get for it. What is being done to-day is in the interests of all Canada, and all the people should bear their share of the load. The farmer alone should not have to bear the brunt of having to take a lower price for his grain.


Robert Fair: The minister said a few moments ago that tied up with the present export price of $1.55 is a guarantee that wheat will not be sold below $1 a bushel for the next five years, but he forgot to tell us that since the war for quite a while we have taken seventy cents f.o.b. Fort William for the best grain grown in the world. By so doing, the farmers suffered a distinct loss during all those years until 1942, when we were given an initial price of ninety cents a bushel. The minister also forgot to tell us that during those years the farmers of Canada had to stand the expense of interest on the money borrowed to advance to the farmers on the grain sold and also vast amounts in storage, for the elevators all over the country were full. All those charges were piled on the Canadian farmers and should properly have been a charge on the Canadian people as a whole. If the government wants to treat the farmers at least half fairly that price of $1 a bushel up to the end of July, 1950, should be increased to SI.25, the present initial price. If these charges were laid on the Canadian people as a whole it would give the farmers a chance to become reestablished and encourage them to work with a little more heart and courage even under present conditions.


James Angus MacKinnon: Just to supplement
what the hon. member has said, participation certificates have also been paid or will be paid to the wheat producers ever since 1940.


Robert Fair: The value of the participation certificates will be off-set by storage and interest charges against the wheat.


John George Diefenbaker: I am not hard to satisfy, but I do not think I got a very good answer; indeed I got no answer to the question I asked, which was a simple one, arising out of the negotiations at Washington between

Supply-Trade and Commerce
representatives of the British and the United States governments relative to a loan or credit to be extended by the United1 States to Britain. That credit of some $4 billion has been extended, and press reports both in the United States and in our own country indicated that the United States government demanded that as a condition precedent to the credit, reductions or changes be made in the British preferences. The minister has stated that Canada had no part in the negotiations that took place in Washington. That is perfectly true, but* Canada is to be greatly affected by what took place there if the British preferences are to be reduced as between Canada and Great Britain. My question is simply this: Did the minister receive any information from either the British or the United States government that as a condition precedent to that credit reductions or changes were to be made in the British preferences as between Canada and Great Britain? I submit that that is a question which should be answered.


James Angus MacKinnon: I can answer it very simply. No such information has been received by the Minister of Trade and Commerce.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I have been handed a copy of the Canadian Geographic Journal, and I notice it says that Canadian trade with Latin-America is to be determined by the Department of Trade and Commerce. That was stated by the trade commissioner or the acting trade commissioner at Santiago, Chile. Would it not be advisable for the trade commissioner in Chile to have an office in Valparaiso, which is a seaport and also because his trade com-missionership takes in Bolivia? I think it would help if there were an office in Valparaiso.
Has the minister any information on the agricultural implement requirements of Brazil? I understand that it was stated in the British House of Commons that Brazil will require 55 million pounds worth of agricultural machinery within the next ten years.


James Angus MacKinnon: In our Santiago office we have a senior trade commissioner and a junior trade commissioner in addition to the other members of the staff. Either one or the other makes regular visits to Valparaiso. As the hon. member knows, Valparaiso is just about a couple of hours' run from Santiago. They also make periodical visits to Bolivia.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The whole point is, if somebody wanted to see the trade commissioner, and he had a hotel room in Valparaiso, he might not want to take the trip to Santiago.


James Angus MacKinnon: I shall see that attention is paid by the departmental officials to the suggestions of the hon. member for Peterborough. May I add' this in a general way on all these matters, that it is my intention and the intention of the officials of the department carefully to peruse everything which has been said on these estimates to-night, because I know that a number of suggestions are helpful, and that most of the suggestions, at least, are given with that purpose.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I wish to ask the minister a question with reference to the British West Indies trade agreements. When will there be a revision of them? I might say that they have had a serious effect on trade from the maritime provinces, and the people of those provinces are anxious to know when those agreements are coming up again for revision.


James Angus MacKinnon: The matter of the renewal or otherwise of the West Indies-Canada trade treaty has simply been at a standstill, on account of the war. It is now impossible to proceed with a consideration of a renewal of that trade treaty, although our friends of the West Indies are exceedingly anxious for a renewal, until we have our trade talks with the United Kingdom. That will have to come first, as it will have a very great deal to do with our negotiations with the West Indies.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: It is not anticipated that there will be any revision within the next year?


James Angus MacKinnon: It will be done just- as early as possible, and I fully recognize the importance of that treaty, to the maritime provinces particularly.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
337.	Exhibitions, $91,622.
George Hugh Castleden: I should like a statement with regard to what is required in respect of the London exhibition.


James Angus MacKinnon: There is nothing for this year. There may foe preparations.


George Hugh Castleden: Was there any expenditure last year?


James Angus MacKinnon: No, except a small
maintenance charge. We have an exhibition warehouse in London where certain things are stored. But the reorganization of the exhibition department is receiving attention right now.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Supply-Trade and Commerce
[Stage Direction]
Dominion bureau of statistics-
338.	Administration, $111,635.
Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I recently had an
inquiry from a railway employee who required proof of age, because at the time that he was born statistics were not recorded very carefully, and my information from the bureau is that proof of age is given for old age pensioners, blind pensioners and veterans, but no provision is made for other persons who require proof of age for pension. Could some consideration be given to a revision of the act, so that any person who requires proof of age for pension could have that proof established by the bureau of statistics?


James Angus MacKinnon: That is a matter which comes before us, I was going to say daily, but very frequently'-people writing in to see if they can get some proof of age through the bureau of statistics. Now, except for government purposes, and according to the legislation under which we are acting, it is impossible for us to furnish that information. I shall take into consideration the necessary amendment to the act which would enable us to do that.


John Ritchie MacNicol: As one who has received much help and information from time to time from the bureau of statistics, and has marvelled at the ability of the officials to give complete answers, and answers in accordance with the information desired, I 'wish to express my appreciation to the minister

and I know I speak for many others in this house 

for all the services we have received from the bureau of statistics.


James Angus MacKinnon: Thank you.
339.	Statistics, including contribution of $2,530 to the Inter-American Statistical Institute, $1,608,600.


John Oliver Probe: 
James Angus MacKinnon: I am sure that the department would purchase these machines rather than pay the rentals if it were possible to do so, but we can obtain the use of the machines only by renting them, not by purchase.


John Oliver Probe: Is that due to the patent rights these companies hold?


James Angus MacKinnon: I imagine it is.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
SJiO. Census of population, $371,700.
Mr. COCKERAM:: Can the minister explain what census services, outside the $250,000 are covered by this item?


James Angus MacKinnon: These figures deal with the expense of the finishing up of the last decennial census.	*


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mail subsidies -and steamship subventions-
Western local services
[Stage Direction]
Hi. Prince Rupert. B.C., and Queen Charlotte islands, service between, $22,000.
Vancouver and northern ports of British Columbia, service between, $15,000.
Victoria, Vancouver, way ports and Skagway, service between, $10,000.
Victoria and west coast Vancouver island, service between, $10,000.
Mr. ARCHIBALD:: I wish to say a few words with reference to the coastwise service on the British Columbia coast, especially from Vancouver north. I should like to see the department take an interest in trying to promote a better mail service to many of the points up the coast. I can give one example, of the village of Bella Coola, which is a good farming centre, but it has only one boat a week from Vancouver; if it could have a better service I am sure that that valley would grow, because there are great possibilities, especially in the future when it becomes hooked up with the interior.
I should also like the department to take an interest in seeing that better boats are provided for the service to the Queen Charlotte islands. The boats used now by the Union Steamship company are nothing more than perambulating junk-heaps, and it is no pleasure to ride on them. I have worked on them, and I pity the sailor who works on them. Quite often the passengers have to swim around for their shoes. That is actually what is happening. It does not make for the growth of Queen Charlotte islands settlements such as Massett and Queen Charlotte city.
I wish to bring another matter to the attention of the minister now, so that it -may be on the record and I can criticize him in future years if needs be. In 1939, by order in council 1280, dated May 31, the government allowed a subsidy of $6,750 per sailing for two boats, for experimental sailings out of the port of Prince Rupert. That was cancelled owing to the imminence of the war. Now that the war is over, the port is in far

Supply-Trade and Commerce
better condition to handle these boats because of increased facilities there consequent upon the growth that took place during the war.
I should like to see the government promote that actively as soon as possible. Ships will be released from the pools in the near future, and when normal shipping relations are established once more I should like to see the port get a start as peace-time trade increases. We are looking for action from the government in the near future, because the whole north has to depend upon this. It is part of the general hook-up of the railway situation all through that country, and this subsidizing and supporting of deep-sea sailings out of the port of Prince Rupert will have its effect on the whole north. We know that in the past trade has been able to start by itself, but we recognize now that the state has to interfere actively and to take the lead in sponsoring such things, and Prince Rupert is looking to the department to do this for them.


James Angus MacKinnon: I do not wish to delay the passing of this item, but I think it is only fair to give the hon. member the information on the points he has raised. The department at the present time is negotiating with the Union Steamship company for a new boat to serve the Queen Charlotte islands and two new boats to serve the northern British Columbia ports. The matter of a shipping service from Prince Rupert to the United Kingdom was about to be taken up when the war broke out, but it is now again receiving the attention of the department.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mail subsidies and steamship subventions-
Eastern local services-
31,5. Baddeck and Iona, service between, $12,900.
Chester and Tancook island, winter service between, $2,400.
Grand Manan and mainland, service between, $33,000.
Halifax, Canso and Guysboro, service between,
[Stage Direction]
Halifax. LaHave and LaHave river ports, service between, $3,000.
Halifax, Sherbrooke, 'Spry bay and Tor bay, service between, $6,500.
Halifax, South Cape Breton, Bras d'Or, lake ports and bay St. Lawrence, service between, $7,500.
Halifax and ports on west coast of Cape Breton, service between, $6,000.
Ile-aux-Coudres and Les Eboulements, service between, $3,500.
Mulgrave and Arichat, service between, $25,000.
Mulgrave and Canso, service between, $37,000.
Mulgrave and Guysboro, calling at intermediate ports, service between, $14,000.
Murray Bay and' north shore of the St. Lawrence, winter service between, $50,000.
Owen Sound and ports on Manitoulin island and Georgian bay service between, $35,000.
Pelee island and the mainland, service between, $11,000.
Piotou, Mulgrave and Cheticamp, service between, $11,000.
Pictou, Souris and the Magdalen islands, service between, $60,000.
Prescott, Ontario, and Ogdensburg, New York, service between, $11,640.
Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland, service between, $17,500.
Prince Edward Island and Nova 'Scotia, service between, $37,000.
Quebec, Natashquan and Harrington, service between, $127,500.
Quebec or Montreal and Gaspe, calling at way ports, service between, $90,000.
Rimouski and Matane and points on the north shore of the St. Lawrence, service between, $75,000.
Riviere-du-Loup and St. Simeon and/or Ta-doussac, service between, $21,000.
Saint John and Minas basin ports, service between, $5,000.
Saint John, Westport and Yarmouth and other way ports, service between, $13,500.
Sydney and bay St. Lawrence, calling at way ports, service between, $25,000.
'Sydney and Bras d'Or lake ports, west coast of Cape Breton, and Prince Edward Island, service between, $22,500.
Sydney and Whycocomagh, calling at way ports, service between, $18,000-$961,783.
John Ritchie MacNicol: I do not see anything in any of these items for a mail service from Waterways north down the Mackenzie valley to Aklavik. Perhaps a subsidy to any service there would help to speed up the traffic, because the trouble is that the traffic is slow. Will the minister consider next session an item to promote the speeding up of traffic on the Mackenzie river by means of a subsidy?


James Angus MacKinnon: I shall be anxious to look into the matter. At present these subsidies are arranged through the Post Office Department.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I wish to ask a question with regard to the Grand Manan-mainland service in New Brunswick. The service has been very unsatisfactory there for the last number of years. Is there any provision for a new boat to be used there? I should like the minister to say something regarding the mail service in connection with Grand Manan. I had heard that there were many complaints.


James Angus MacKinnon: The contractors on that service have just purchased a new boat, and negotiations are being carried on now with regard to subsidies.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canada Grain Act
[Stage Direction]
31,6. Administration, $101,834.
George Hugh Castleden: Earlier this evening the minister stated that order in council PjC. 6122 did not prohibit the government from selling
Supply-Trade and Commerce

grain in excess of $1.55. I have a copy of the order in council, the last paragraph of which reads:
Regulations. The Canadian wheat hoard shall not sell wheat for export to overseas destinations at a price in excess of $1.55 per bushel-
Is that not placing a ceiling?
-for number 1 Manitoba northern, basis in store Fort William/Port Arthur or Vancouver, and in the case of each other grade of wheat at prices in excess of such prices as in the opinion of the said board brings each of such grades into proper prices relationship with number 1 Manitoba northern.
Does the minister say that with this order in council in effect they can sell wheat at more than $1.55 for export purposes?


James Angus MacKinnon: My understanding is that the $1.55 f.o.b. Port Arthur or Vancouver is the price at which wheat is being offered for sale at the present time. Further, I understand that circumstances might arise that might lead the wheat board to offer wheat at a higher price.


George Hugh Castleden: The order in council makes a definite statement.


James Angus MacKinnon: I shall have to look into that.


George Hugh Castleden: One other matter. The minister stated that the present export price of $1.55 had a relationship to the $1 floor price guaranteed the farmers for a number of years. If we were getting $1.30, if we were getting the extra thirty cents, either through a government subsidy or by selling at the export price, would that not make it possible for the government to guarantee a price for a longer period? There would be more money in the wheat board and you could guarantee a better price. The producer is the ultimate loser, no matter how you look at it.


James Angus MacKinnon: I am afraid I did not follow the hon. member. Would he mind repeating that.


George Hugh Castleden: The minister said that the $1.55 was tied up with the fact that there was a floor of $1 a bushel for the next five years, and my question was this. If we were selling wheat at the present time at thirty cents a bushel more, secured either in the form of a subsidy from the Canadian government or at that price, would that not mean more money in the treasury of the wheat board, so that the $1 price could be maintained for a longer period?


James Angus MacKinnon: That money would not be left there. It would be distributed to the producers immediately under participation
certificates.


George Hugh Castleden: Without that, the
farmer loses. He is the man that takes the loss at the lower price.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canada Grain Act-
Slit. Operation and maintenance including inspection and weighing, registration, et cetera, $1,820,047.
Arthur Leroy Smith: Why is there this substantial increase?


James Angus MacKinnon: I am told there is a larger volume of wheat being handled.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canada Grain Act-
3is. Canadian government elevators, including equipment, $429,991.
William Scottie Bryce: Is this for new equipment, or does it represent a deficit in the operation of the government elevator?


James Angus MacKinnon: The largest item in the
increases is $29,750 for salaries.


William Scottie Bryce: For what?


James Angus MacKinnon: Increased employees.


William Scottie Bryce: Rental for these elevators
must be in that. Government elevators are rented out, are they not?


James Angus MacKinnon: All elevators except
one are operated by the board of grain commissioners. One elevator at Port Arthur is rented.
Mr. TOWNLEY-SMITH:	Are they revenue-producing? If so, can the minister tell us what the receipts were in the last year?


James Angus MacKinnon: I am informed that
the revenue goes into the consolidated revenue fund and the money is voted by parliament each year for the operations.	*


Mr. MOORE:: I note that the amount asked for Canadian government elevators is approximately $430,000. How much of that money was spent last year on the terminal elevator at Churchill, Mantioba? How much does the department intend to spend on that elevator in 1946? Is it the purpose of the department to restore the stockyards at that point in the near future? I understand that they were torn down during the late war.


James Angus MacKinnon: The elevator at Churchill does not come under the Department of Trade and Commerce. I am not sure whether it comes under the Department of Transport or the national harbours board.

Supply-Trade and Commerce


Arthur Leroy Smith: I notice there is an increase in this item and we are told it is for salaries. In the last item there was a large increase, and we are told it was for handling more grain. I wonder whether those answers are accurate. Why should there be more grain handled in 1945-46 than in 1944-45, when there was more grain to handle?


James Angus MacKinnon: From the figures before him, the hon. member is quite right in asking these questions; but I am advised by the official that it is necessary to ask for a further amount in the supplementary estimates which will be brought down at a later date, to help take care of the 1944-45 operations.


Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: Before this
item passes I should like to ask the minister a question in regard to subsidies and the reestablishment of the ferry service in Nova Scotia, Parrsboro, Kingsport and Wolfville, which was carried on for over forty years, I believe, and in recent years by the ferry boat Kipawo, which was taken over by the Department of National Defence for the Naval Services.


The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Golding):: Order. The item we are now on is "Canadian government elevators, including equipment, $429,991."


Percy Chapman Black: I know this
is the last item, but I have been attending a meeting of the banking and commerce committee. I ask the privilege to revert to a previous item. I will not be very long. The minister is willing.


An hon. MEMBER:: Make it short.


Percy Chapman Black: This service
was discontinued. A subsidy of S4.500 was paid by the provincial government and also some by the federal government. When the service was discontinued motorists had to cover about 150 miles extra when gasoline and tires were rationed. The was is over; people of the section served, and the general public are anxious to have this service reestablished. I do not expect it to be in these estimates, but I ask the minister whether he is able to make any announcement with regard to the plans of the department for the ensuing fiscal year. I have been advised that some of the responsible citizens in the communities directly served are prepared to assume the responsibility for securing, if possible, the old boat Kipawo or a new boat and operating it, provided that the government will restore the subsidies previously paid. Will the minister make a short statement?


James Angus MacKinnon: I am familiar with the matter brought up by the hon. member for Cumberland. As he knows, the service was discontinued in the early days of the war. I shall be very glad to have my officials look into the matter again and see if it would be justifiable to resume the service.


Percy Chapman Black: I wish to
thank the minister.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
William Henry Golding: If the hon. members will turn to page 15 of the estimates-


James Angus MacKinnon: Mr. Chairman, I did not hear you call item 229.


Mr. JACKMAN:: While the chairman is turning up this item, may I refer to a matter? For many years the Department of Trade and Commerce put out a most useful handbook giving an abstract of the "Canada Year Book." I believe the charge to educational institutions and members was ten cents. During the period when certain economy measures were put into force, certain false economies were also put into force and the price of this booklet was raised to twenty-five cents. I know that great use was found for it among students in commercial classes in my riding. It would greatly facilitate the distribution of this booklet if the department could see fit to make it available once more for educational purposes and for distribution to members of the house at the old rate of ten cents. I hope that the minister will give consideration to this request.


James Angus MacKinnon: I shall be very glad to do so. I may say that I know how much interested the hon. member for Rosedale is in that particular publication, because at his own expense he has given quite a wide distribution to it, and has been helpful to us in the improvement which has been brought about in that publication.


William Henry Golding: Item 229 comes under National War Services.


James Angus MacKinnon: It is transferred to
this department.
S29. Canadian travel bureau service, $77,950.


Howard Charles Green: Can the minister give us a short statement with regard to the activities of the bureau and what plans he has for the future?


James Angus MacKinnon: I possibly could get
something from my officials, but I am not in a position to give any long detailed state-
Supply-Trade and Commerce

ment on the plans that we have in the Department of Trade and Commerce for the Canadian travel bureau which has just been taken over from the Department of National War Services. We are now dealing with the ordinary estimates. There will be items in the supplementary estimates for the extension of this service in the first year after the war. It is recognized that the work of this branch, which was dropped during the war, will have to be brought back again in an enlarged way, and studies are being given to that objective at the present time.


Howard Charles Green: Are there no plans made for the work that is to be done by the travel bureau? This is the organization which is responsible for the promotion of tourist business.


James Angus MacKinnon: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: I have no doubt that a great deal of consideration has been given to plans for the post-war period. I would suggest to the minister that he give us more detail as to what plans have been made. This is one of the most important industries in Canada.


James Angus MacKinnon: What the hon. member for Vancouver South has just said is well understood by the department'. I am quite sure he. will realize, however, that, this matter having just come into the department, I am not now in a position to make an extended statement. As I intimated, there will be some supplementary estimates brought down, at which time I would be ready to make a statement.
However, I can say now that the regular work of the branch has been proceeded with and preparations made for extensive advertising throughout foreign countries, particularly the United States and Latin-American countries, respecting the great tourist, attractions we have in Canada, Money has been appropriated for the preparation of literature advertising those resources.
We are also planning a campaign which will have for its purpose that of making the people of Canada individually realize the importance of this tourist business, so that when people come to Canada they may be taken care of properly and courteously, in order that they may be good travelling ambassadors for Canadian scenery.


Howard Charles Green: Will the minister make a detailed statement when his supplementary estimates come up?


James Angus MacKinnon: I shall, if opportunity permits.


Percy Chapman Black: I have one severe criticism-and it is not of the minister. This amount is not nearly large enough. He reassures me, however, bj' the statement that substantial supplementary estimates are to be brought in. I take it for granted that they will be properly expended and, so far as I am concerned, I am going to support the minister in advance.
This is one of the most important services in Canada, one w'hich is extremely important to the maritime provinces. I hope the minister will see that there is an appropriation amply sufficient to administer this very important service.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
930. National film board, including the motion picture bureau, $810,965.
Mr. FLEMING:: This item appears under the Department of National War Services, but it was my understanding that recently the administration had been transferred to the Department of National Health and Welfare.


James Angus MacKinnon: That is correct.


Donald Methuen Fleming: It seems to me this might more properly be dealt with when the estimates of the Department of National Health and Welfare are before us.


James Angus MacKinnon: That is when they will be dealt with. We are not attempting to deal with them to-night.
Item stands.


[Stage Direction]
91. Departmental administration, $170,499.
John George Diefenbaker: There is one matter concerning which I should like to ask the minister a few questions. It has to do with the recent action in Windsor, Ontario, where a convicted robber was given the test by a lie detector. That, I believe, is the first time in the history of this country that anything along that line has been attempted, or that it has been used for the purpose of ascertaining whether or not those convicted have been in fact guilty of any offence.
In this connection I would ask the minister the circumstances under which the test was made upon the convict, and whether or not tests by lie detectors have now become sufficiently scientifically advanced as to be reasonably infallible.
The convict in question had been sentenced to a period of twelve years in prison. Ho appealed, and his appeal was dismissed. He escaped from gaol while awaiting the hearing of the appeal, and returned to custody under an arrangement whereby he was to have

Supply-Justice
applied to him the lie detector with a view to ascertaining whether or not he had in fact committed the offence of which he had- denied commission.
Having read of this case, I looked up as well as I could some of the methods being used in this connection, to ascertain wdiether there was any foundation for what was done in this case. I find that there are several appliances being used, more particularly in Michigan, which adjoins the city of Windsor. There, many innocent persons who have been sentenced to imprisonment have been cleared, as a result of the examinations which have taken place through the use of what is known as a polygraph machine. It is known as the Keeler polygraph.
I am referring now to the London Spectator wherein it is stated that this machine is seventy-five per cent accurate, and that another machine known as the Summers pathometer, which it is claimed demonstrates a lie by means of a variation in the electrical resistance of the skin to an electric current, is supposed to detect ninety-eight per cent of guilty persons and 100 per cent of the innocent.
I know of no advance made in recent years that could be more important than this one.


Mr. BERTRAND (Laurier):: Does the hon. member believe in it?


John George Diefenbaker: That is not for
me to say. After all. the law is always far behind scientific development. It took many years before finger-printing was accepted, and many years before criminology would permit of the taking of evidence in connection with firearms, the identification of cartridges, and the like.
Whether I believe in it or not, this was actually tried out in the Windsor case. According to press reports the man was found to have been innocent of the offence for which he had been sentenced and was about to serve a long term of imprisonment.
Is this system to be applied generally throughout the country, and in particular in penitentiaries where there are men who claim they' are innocent and have been wrongly convicted? Of course one finds that in all penal institutions. The principle has been accepted in this case.
I should like to ask the minister these questions before dealing with the matter any further. First, did that examination take place with the knowledge or consent of the Department of Justice? Did it take place after consideration had been given to the whole question of the reliability of the lie detector device?
This is important because, if there has been no evidence to support the accuracy of the lie detector, then it should not have been used in that case, because it leads people to believe that this man is wrongfully serving a sentence. If, on the other hand, it has been accepted byr the Department of Justice as a result of examination as being reasonably infallible, then I submit that the time has come when it should be generally applied throughout the penal institutions of this country.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: The answer to the first question is, no. The answer to the second question is that the Department of Justice does not know anything at all about it. The answer to the third question is that the Department of Justice does not attempt in the penitentiaries to ascertain whether convictions pronounced in the courts charged with the administration of justice are proper or not.


John George Diefenbaker: Why then was this examination allowed of a man who had received a sentence to the penitentiary?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: The hon, member will have to address his question to the attorney general of Ontario who has to do with the administration of justice in this province. The Department of Justice had nothing whatsoever to do with the incident to which the hon. member refers.
Item stands.
Progress reported.
It being five minutes after eleven o'clock, the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Wednesday, December 12, 1945.