1945-09-28

PARLIAMENTARY ASSISTANTS


Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Acting Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister, who will not be present this afternoon, has asked me to table copy of order in council which I shall read:
His Excellency the Governor General in Council, on the recommendation of the Right Honourable W. L. Mackenzie King, Prime Minister, is pleased to appoint and doth hereby appoint George James Mellraith, Esq., M.P., parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Reconstruction, to assist the said minister within and without parliament in such manner and to such extent as the said minister may determine.



INTERNATIONAL LABOUR CONFERENCE


Hon. HUMPHREY MITCHELL (Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, I table copies of
order in council P.C. 6103 providing for the participation of Canada in the Twenty-seventh session of the international labour organization conference opening in Paris on October 15, 1945; also copies of P.C. 6162 appointing the Canadian delegation.
I think perhaps the house would be interested to know those who are going to Paris, and with your permission, Mr. Speaker, I shall read the names.
The government delegates are: Mr. Gray Turgeon, Vancouver, B.C. and Mr. Alfred Rive, Department of External Affairs; alternate, Mr. V. C. Phelan, Department of Labour. Secretary to the government delegates is Mr. T. L. Carter, Department of External Affairs.
The provincial government representatives accompanying the government delegation at the expense, of course, of the provincial governments concerned-are: Hon. Antonio Barrette, Minister of Labour, Quebec; Mr. Jean-Pierre Despres, Department of Labour, Quebec; Hon. Charles Daley, Minister of Labour, Toronto; Hon. C. C. Williams, Minister of Labour, Regina.
The employers' delegate is Mr. Harry Taylor, personnel manager of Canadian National Carbon Company and member of the industrial relations committee of the Canadian Manufacturers' Association, Toronto. The technical adviser to the employers' delegate is Mr. Allan Ross, of Ross-Meagher, Ltd., Ottawa.
The workers' delegate is Mr. J. Arthur D'Aoust, vice-president, Trades and Labour Congress of Canada, and vice-president of the International Brotherhood of Paper Makers, Montreal. Technical advisers to the workers' delegate are Mr. Birt Showier, vice-president, Trades and Labour Congress of Canada, and president of Vancouver, New Westminster and district trades and labour council, Vancouver; Mr. Norman H. Dowd, executive secretary of Canadian Congress of Labour, Ottawa; and Mr. Alfred Charpentier, president, of the Canadian and Catholic Confederation of Labour, Montreal.
House of Commons



VISIT OF PRIME MINISTER TO UNITED KINGDOM AND EUROPE-ACTING PRIME MINISTER

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. JOHN BRACKEN (Leader of the Opposition):: I had two or three questions to direct to the Prime Minister, but perhaps the Acting Prime Minister will answer them. Will he tell the house who will be Acting Prime Minister during the Prime Minister's absence overseas? Who will be the Acting Secretary of State for External Affairs, and who will lead the House of Commons? Will the Acting Prime Minister also tell the house whether it is the intention of the Prime Minister to appoint additional parliamentary assistants prior to his departure overseas?
Hon. IAN A. MACKENZIE (Minister of Veterans Affairs): On behalf of the Acting Prime Minister I should like to reply to the hon. member. The Minister of Finance (Mr. Usley) will be Acting Prime Minister during the absence of the Prime Minister overseas. The hon. the Minister of Justice (Mr. St. Laurent) will be Acting Secretary of State for External Affairs. The Minister of Veterans Affairs will be acting President of the Council, and the last mentioned gentleman will endeavour to assist and cooperate with his hon. friends the leaders of the various parties, in the direction of the activities of this house.



SUGGESTED ESTABLISHMENT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL SECURITY, HEALTH, HOUSING AND PUBLIC WELFARE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
James Lorimer Ilsley: The hon. member for Eglinton (Mr. Fleming) yesterday or the day before asked whether the government would give consideration to amending the rules of the house to provide for the establishment of a standing committee on social security, health, housing md public welfare. The answer is this. The government will have to give careful consideration to the question as to whether it is advisable to increase the number of standing committees, at least for the present session. As the hon. member indicates in his question, an amendment to the rules of the house would be necessary for this purpose. The subjects which the proposed committee would deal with are all subjects which could probably be considered appropriately by the standing committee on industrial relations. 
The hon. member for Eglinton also asked me the other day when the report of the national housing administration would be made to parliament. I am informed by the officials of that administration that they expect to have the report completed and in a position to be tabled by the end of next week.


Mr. ADAMSON:: As a supplementary question, is it not the intention of the government to reestablish the two special committees that sat in the last house, the reconstruction committee and the social security committee?


James Lorimer Ilsley: It is my understanding that those special committees are not to be reestablished.



DIVISIONS-MEMBERS PRESENT WHEN QUESTION PUT AND NOT VOTING  PAIRS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. STANLEY KNOWLES (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I rise to a
question of privilege. Citation 68 of Beau-chesne's Parliamentary Rules and Forms, second edition, reads as follows:
If a member who has heard the question put does not vote, and the attention of the Speaker is directed to the fact, the latter will call upon him to declare on which side he votes; and his name will be recorded accordingly.
I understand that this citation can be invoked only at the time a vote is being taken, so I cannot now ask that anything be done about hon. members who refrained from voting last night. That is not my question of privilege. However, I do feel that if we as members of this house are to cooperate with Your Honour in insisting upon the observance of the rule that all hon. members in their places when the question is put should vote, I should call attention to the fact that a practice is developing which should be corrected.
The situation last evening was this. We realized that some pairing arrangements between government supporters and members of the official opposition had been made, but as far as those of us in this group were concerned we did not know what those arrangements were. When we noted certain hon. members to our right refraining from voting on the amendment to the amendment, we could only assume that they were paired. Later we discovered that this was not the case.


An hon. MEMBER:: They were paired.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Oh, no; the pairs are not listed in Hansard. I refer to the hon. member for Souris (Mr. Ross) and the hon. mem-

House of Commons
ber for Muskoka-Ontario (Mr. Macdonnell), who did not vote on the amendment to the amendment and who, as far as the record shows, were not paired. Had I known at the time that they were not paired, I would have called Your Honour's attention to this citation and asked you to have them declare on which side they were voting. As I have said already, it seems to me that if we are to cooperate with Your Honour in insisting upon the observance of what I believe to be a very good rule, namely, that every member present should vote, you might direct the attention of the chief whips to the matter and suggest that either one of two things be done; that when pairing arrangements are made, all the whips be advised of those arrangements, or that any member who is sitting in the house and is paired should indicate that fact after the vote has been taken.


Mr. MACKENZIE:: On the point raised by my hon. friend, in the first place there is no such rule in this house. We discussed this matter very thoroughly in the committee that was appointed a year ago to look into certain amendments and changes to the rules of this house. This rule applies in some other parliaments, but it does not apply in this house. There was a far more flagrant breach of the rules of this house last evening, in that some hon. gentlemen came in and took their seats while the vote was being taken. In regard to pairs, parliament knows no pairs.


Stanley Howard Knowles: May I ask the minister
if he has read citation 69, which says:
The practice has not been changed in Canada where every member who has heard the question put is bound to vote.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes, and we studied that point last year very thoroughly. In the light of all the precedents, usages, customs and conventions of this assembly for many years, it is not the rule of this house.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Show me where that
is so.


Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: Now that the question of voting has come up I think on a point of privilege I might refer to something which occurred last evening, so that hon. members will not think that in voting I broke a pair I had with the hon. member for Pictou (Mr. McCulloch). I was under the impression that this pair began to-day, and aceofd-ingly voted last evening. Apparently the hon. member for Pictou believed the pair began yesterday or the day before. If there has been any misunderstanding I rise simply to
say that it was inadvertent, and a mistake on my part. I thought it only fair to say this for the benefit of hon. members opposite, and also that the hon. member for Pictou might understand the circumstances.


Mr. ROSS (Souris):: With all due deference to what the minister has said, Mr. Speaker, I should like your ruling on this point, because I quite understand that I was obeying the rules of this house last evening. We had an experience of this nature in the last parliament, and the Speaker of that day certainly indicated that a member was not forced to vote if he had not made up his mind as to which way he should cast his vote. For future reference I should like to have your ruling in the matter.


Mr. IRVINE:: Before you give your ruling, Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Veterans Affairs if he recalls a time some years ago when this very question was brought up. I cannot give the date at the moment; I did not know this matter would be discussed or I should have looked it up. I remember very well, however, that a few of us in this corner were compelled to vote under this very rule. So, unless it has been changed, that certainly was the rule under the Speaker of that day.


Mr. REID:: Perhaps I may be allowed to say a word in order to keep the record clear. The hon. member who just spoke did not intimate to the house that on the occasion to which he refers the members who had not voted were named to the Speaker, wherfias last evening no one was named as not having voted.


Mr. SPEAKER:: I would say to the hon. member for Souris (Mr. Ross) that in England members are compelled by the rules to vote, but in this house there is no rule obliging a member to vote. In answer to the hon. members who have questioned the practice of pairing in the house, may I draw their attention to paragraph 95 at page 49 of Beauchesne, third edition, where we find this:
Although there is no standing order in this regard, either here or in the English parliament, it is customary in both places for a member who has to be absent to agree with another member that he also shall be absent at the same time. Thus these members are "paired" and a vote is neutralized on each side of the question.
There can be no parliamentary recognition of this practice (pairing), although it has never been expressly condemned; and it is therefore conducted privately by individual members, or arranged by the gentlemen known as the "whips" who are entrusted by their political parties with the office of collecting their respective forces on a division.
House of Commons

So I may say that pairing is not recognized officially by our House of Commons.


Mr. COLDWELL:: Mr. Speaker, just to complete the record: If a rule is not observed, it should be taken out of the book of rules. At paragraph 69, page 25 of Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules and Forms, we find this:
Under ancient custom, refusal to vote was considered a serious parliamentary offence, but the practice was changed in 1906 by the British house adopting a standing order whereby a member is not obliged to vote. That standing order does not apply to the Canadian Commons. The practice has not been changed in Canada where every member who has heard the question put is bound to vote.
And as I understand it, if an hon. member calls your Honour's attention to the fact that a member has been in his seat and has not voted, he is bound to declare himself one way or the other.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: May I interrupt the hon. member?-just to help him. Since the rule was published there has been a decision by a Speaker of this House of Commons to the contrary effect. I am sorry I have not the reference with me, but that is the fact.


Major James William Coldwell: Does that alter the rule?-because we have so many decisions. Sometimes decisions have to be made for the convenience of business in the house. It seems to me that if we have rules we should abide by them.' Indeed, it seems to me no Speaker's ruling should supersede a written rule under a standing order adopted by the House of Commons.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: These are just marginal comments; they are not binding rules. Only the words in the standing orders are binding.


Mr. MacINNIS:: They are cited in the house.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Angus MacInnis: Then what value has a written citation? Can it be cited one day and have value, and cited the next day and have no value at all?


Mr. ABBOTT:: It is done every day, in the courts.


Major James William Coldwell: That being so, what value has a book of rules of this description? One can find something in one of these books of rules to meet almost any situation which may arise, and to support almost any decision.


James Arthur Ross: It is like the bible.


Mr. GRAYDON:: May I suggest that perhaps this discussion might now come to an end? No doubt it was the purpose of the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) to make this move for the purpose of drawing special attention to the fact that-


Major James William Coldwell: No, no.


Gordon Graydon: Mr. Speaker will tell my hon. friend when he should speak and when he should not. While I am speaking I have the floor.


James Arthur Ross: We had the same experience last year.


Gordon Graydon: Their purpose has been served, in that they have drawn the attention of the public to the fact that two of our number did not, for various reasons, record their votes last night. I suggest that now the discussion might end-if their purpose has been served.


Major James William Coldwell: The interpretation
placed by the hon. member for Peel (Mr. Graydon) upon what was said by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre is entirely incorrect. I discussed this matter with the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre, and we thought we should have it settled, because some of our new members do not fully understand the rules. We had told them that hon. members were bound to vote, and we think the situation should be cleared up. This was not done to bring before the house what any two members did or did not do-as a matter of fact I wish my hon. friend had not been challenged to name them, because it was not done with that intention at all.


Mr. GLEN:: Mr. Speaker, this question has always been somewhat confused in this House of Commons. The hon. member for Cariboo (Mr. Irvine) spoke of an incident which occurred at a time when he was a member of the house. He has pointed out that on that occasion the matter was brought to the attention of the house and that the hon. member in question was requested to record his vote. A year ago when we were dealing with a revision of the rules this matter was considered carefully by hon. members of the committee. At that time they did not think they should make a recommendation to the house in this connection. The postion I always took when

Business Visits to Europe
I occupied the Speaker's chair was that an hon. member who was in the house should record his vote; but if he did not do so the Chair had no power to compel him to do so.
Then, with regard to pairs; as has been already stated, pairs are not recognized in our rules. It is customary, however, between parties, for the convenience both of the house and of its members, that arrangements be made with regard to pairs. But so far as the rules of the house are concerned there is nothing which makes provision for them- although they are recognized by custom in the house.



MARSHAL ZHUKOV


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. HERRIDGE (Kootenay West):: I wish to direct a question to the Acting Prime Minister. According to a White House statement reported in the press, Marshal Gregory Zhukov has been invited to visit Washington and will arrive on October 4. Will the Acting Prime Minister inform this house if consideration has been given to extending an invitation to Marshal Zhukov to visit this country?


James Lorimer Ilsley: The government has no official information with respect to the proposed visit of Marshal Zhukov, and until it has, I shall not be in a position to answer the question.



FEDERAL DISTRICT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. M. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Ontario):: I should like to address the following questions to the Prime Minister, but possibly in his absence the Acting Prime Minister will answer them. I have already given notice of them. 1. Has the government consulted with veterans' organizations throughout Canada to see if they approve a national memorial taking the proposed form of the beautification of Ottawa and the surrounding district? 2. Has the government consulted-


James Horace King: I think the hon. member should put that question on the order paper.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: In deferring to your ruling, sir, may I say that I thought the question was of such immediate and widespread public interest that the government might think it well to answer it now.


James Horace King: I must insist. It may be of public interest, but I do not see its urgency.



BUSINESS VISITS TO EUROPE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. K. FRASER (Peterborough West):: May I ask the Acting Prime Minister whether he has an answer to the question I asked the Prime Minister yesterday in regard to business men of Canada travelling in Europe?
Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Acting Secretary of State for External Affairs): Yes; I was waiting for an opportunity to answer it. The question submitted yesterday by the hon member for Peterborough (Mr. Fraser) appears on page 494 of Hansard. I should perhaps read it to make the answer pertinent. It is as follows:
A press dispatch from Paris appearing in the New York Times of yesterday quoted the American ambassador to France as saying that facilities for food, lodging and limited transportation for American business men will be provided through the United States Embassy over there on and after October 1, 1945. May I ask the Prime Minister what steps this government is taking to provide similar service to Canadians on business in France and anywhere in Europe where the army has quarters and messes?
This is the answer which has been prepared by the Department of External Affairs; we are informed that, as a result of discussions which took place some time ago between the state department and the war department, the United States military authorities had been requested to cooperate with the embassy in Paris in working out arrangements for accommodating and assisting United States business men on visits to France. The details of the arrangements were to be worked out in the field between the embassy and the military authorities. Such arrangements as are reported in the press would be in line with the proposals.
Canadian offices in liberated countries have given every assistance to Canadian business men and others who travel to those areas and will continue to do so. As the house is fully aware, food, housing and travel facilities are extremely scarce in liberated territories. The army has been in close contact with the Canadian embassies in France and Belgium on this question and has provided facilities for
External Affairs

food and lodging whenever there were facilities available. These arrangements are being expanded.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Acting Secretary of State for External Affairs): Yesterday a question was submitted to the Prime Minister, in his capacity of Secretary of State for External Affairs, by the bon. member for Rose-town-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell). It appears at page 491 of Hansard, and is as follows:
I do not think the answer given by the Prime Minister quite covers what I have in mind. 4 was wondering whether any representations had been made regarding the disposition of persons and property. The question I had particularly in mind was this: Is Canada interesting herself in the fate of many of the people who are moving around Europe at the present time, the disposition of whom will be discussed by the foreign ministers in London?
The Secretary of State for External Affairs replied:
I should like to have that question stand. I will give a further answer to-morrow.
The answer I have been asked to make on his behalf is: As stated yesterday in particular relation to the Yugoslav-Italian frontier, the Canadian government has not put forward any representations respecting European boundaries. The government is, however, very much concerned with the effect which the peace settlements will have on future relationships with the community of nations.
As regards displaced persons, Canada has taken an active and responsible part in UNRRA which is the organization charged by the united nations with coordinating the work of caring for and repatriating displaced persons. Canada is also represented on the executive committee of the intergovernmental committee on refugees whose main task will be the care and settlement of persons who will not be able to return to their homes.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Angus MacInnis: I should like to ask the Minister of Labour if he has any information to give to the house in regard to the progress made in the settlement of the Ford' Motor Company strike.


Humphrey Mitchell: I had notice of a question of a similar nature from the hon. member for Brandon (Mr. Matthews), and as they both cut across the same thing perhaps I might deal with his question and the question of the hon. member for Vancouver East at the same time.
On Wednesday of this week I sent the following telegram to the president of the Ford Motor Company and to the president of Local 200, UA.W.-C.I.O.
Arthur J. Rheaume, Mayor Windsor, has wired Minister of Labour for Ontario as well as myself as follows: "Telegrams were forwarded to-day urging Ford Motor Company of Canada Limited and union to request intervention of yourself and provincial Minister of Labour in present dispute. Company reply not yet received but union has authorized me by letter to request that you and the provincial minister of labour set a date for a meeting with union and company representatives either at Ottawa, Toronto or Windsor preferably the last mentioned." I have consulted by telephone Minister of Labour Hon. C. Daley for Ontario who is at Kirkland Lake to-day and I hereby invite the president of the company and one other and the president of the union and one other to meet with the Minister of Labour for Ontario and his deputy and with myself and my deputy at Minister of Labour's office Toronto on a date which is acceptable to you both. Arrangements could be made for meeting on Monday October first if this is acceptable or any other day next week. The meeting would be under my chairmanship and purpose would be to discuss the work stoppage with a view of convassing the possibilities of bringing about resumption of work.
So far no reply has been received from the union to the invitation to meet with the representatives of the Ford Motor Company in the presence of the Minister of Labour for Ontario and myself, but I understand from press reports that the union is willing to participate in this meeting.
A telegram was received last night from the president of the Ford Motor Company, which reads as follows:
Your wire twenty-sixth instant received inviting representatives of company to meet yourself and deputy and Hon. Mr. Daley and deputy together with representatives of union. Since and including thirteenth instant union in addition to illegally picketing company's factory premises has by means of mass unlawful picketing forcibly prevented company's office employees official of company and all persons having business with company's office from entering company's main office premises in this city. You will appreciate that without records and office

Labour Conditions
facilities company's office work consequent upon cancellation of war contracts and with respect to reconversion as well as other important business matters which can be dealt with only in the main office is at a standstill. This unlawful deprivation by union of free and unobstructed ingress to and egress from the company's main office premises has been the subject of formal representation by the company to both municipal and provincial authorities but has now continued for fifteen consecutive days. Acceptance of your invitation in these circumstances would in the company's opinion constitute acquiescence in the unlawful action by the union and would invite similar tactics should future differences arise. Upon discontinuance of the above described mass unlawful picketing of main office premises the company and receipt of satisfactory assurance of no resumption thereof I am prepared to meet you in Toronto on October first or other day to be arranged accompanied by two other representatives of the company to discuss as suggested by you the work stoppage with a view of canvassing possibilities of bringing about resumption of work. If meeting arranged consider president of company and two other company representatives should participate and have no objection to equal number of union representatives acompanying union president.
W. R. Campbell, President Ford Motor Company of Canada Limited.
I should like to make this further observation with regard to the condition which the company lays down before attending the proposed meeting. I would say that the alleged illegal picketing is a matter governed by the provisions of the criminal code, responsibility for the enforcement of which lies with the provincial authorities. I understand that information has already been laid against one employee charged with illegal picketing, and court proceedings are pending. It would be improper, therefore, for me to make any comment at this stage. I have, however, conveyed to the officers of the union the contents of the com-* pany's communication.


Mr. J. E. MATTHEWS (Brandon):: It is only fair that I should say that the question to which the minister referred when he rose was to have been asked by me on behalf of the hon. member for Essex West (Mr. Brown) who is unavoidably absent. It has been fully answered by the minister.


Mr. J. H. FERGUSON (Simcoe North):: I wish to address a question to the Minister of Labour. Has an order or direction been given by his department to the selective service in Windsor or elsewhere that employees now on strike at the Ford Company's plant shall not be granted permits to seek work elsewhere?


Humphrey Mitchell: I have no knowledge of such an order.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: May I ask the minister another question. If in Windsor selective service is denying permits to seek employment elsewhere-


James Horace King: Order. The hon. member has asked this or a similar question already.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: No; this is an entirely
different question arising out of the first one. May I continue?


James Horace King: Yes.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: If selective service
officials in Windsor are denying Ford employees permits to seek employment elsewhere without the knowledge of the minister, will the minister rescind that order at once?


Humphrey Mitchell: I do not think my hon. friend wants to be clever, but let us be fair with one another. I have been under pressure; I just got into the house, following a late meeting of council. I am not objecting to these questions, you understand, but I gave my hon. friend what I considered to be a fair answer. It may be that even he does not know what he is talking about, you understand.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: I know the answer or I would not ask you.


Humphrey Mitchell: Just a moment. I listened while you were putting me over the jumps, so you can wait a moment now. It may 'be that this has to do with open permits, I do not know. But I want to say to my hon. friend that if he is in doubt or if he has a problem, if he will see me I will have Windsor called up and we will find out the exact situation there. Then if a remedy is needed it will be applied.



EFFECT OF STRIKE OF MONTREAL LONGSHOREMEN ON PERISHABLE GOODS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gordon Graydon: I desire to direct a question to the Minister of Labour, and his answer to one part of that question will perhaps be sufficient. During the day I have had an urgent long-distance telephone call from one of my constituents who is, perhaps, Canada's largest importer of Dutch bulb stock from Holland. In the Montreal harbour at the moment are two shipments of

Housing

$50,000 each awaiting transhipment from the Dutch steamer Boskoop. I see you are about to rise, Mr. Speaker, but I assure you I shall establish at once the urgency of the question. The cargo, as I say, is now awaiting transhipment to the Canada Steamship Lines, but the longshoremen have not been working for some days. These goods are of the most perishable nature and there is great urgency about the question which I am going to ask. First of all, have the longshoremen gone back to work, and secondly, if not, what steps does the government propose to take with respect to perishable goods of this kind, which will not stand any lengthy delay in transhipment to other boats?


Humphrey Mitchell: I may observe, by way of preface to my remarks, that it has been said this was a strike against meat rationing on the part of the longshoremen. I am assured by the officers of that organization that it was a strike against the people who were striking against meat rationing. That may seem peculiar, and I see that my hon. friends are smiling, but you cannot load ships on salads. You have to have solid food. The longshoremen themselves need meat to do the heavy work they have to do. However, I am glad to be able to assure my hon. friend that the strike is over. The first gangs went to work this morning, and we expect the port to be in full operation by to-morrow morning.



HOUSING


[Stage Direction]
, On the orders of the day:
Mr. T. A. KIDD (Kingston City):: May
I ask the Minister of Reconstruction if he has an answer to my question of yesterday?


Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Reconstruction) :: I was waiting for an opportunity
to answer it. I regret that I was not in the house when the question was asked. The hon. member's query was as follows:
Will the minister kindly inform the house whether immediate steps can be taken to release building materials to discharged soldiers in order to enable them to build or remodel houses or places of business for themselves and their families?
Building materials are released automatically when a building permit is obtained. The government has no machinery for release of materials other than through the issuance of building permits, although they can be bought, of course, through the retail establishments
[Mr. Graydon.)
in any locality. Permits are given freely for small houses, and usually for alterations of houses. With regard to larger houses the need is carefully assessed in order that available materials may be directed to the smaller type of houses.
As far as shops are concerned, it is not possible at this time to release materials either for building new shops or for remodelling existing ones. We feel that we must get the housing situation in hand before we can extend the territory for -which, building materials can be released. However, the material situation is improving greatly. It is wholly a matter of manpower. We are still short manpower in the production of foundry products, electrical and other trades, and we are very short indeed of construction labour for the work on the site. The situation, as I say, is improving, and I am hopeful that later this autumn we shall be able to release permits for the remodelling and perhaps the building of shops.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The minister has said that material is not being released for shops. In that case how is it that permits are being granted for large gasoline stations throughout the country?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is a matter of helping
veterans become reestablished. Such permits are granted to veterans. The difference is that ordinarily a gasoline station does not require the type of equipment which is short. The shortage is in plumbing fixtures, and particularly in millwork such as doors and windows. The ordinary gasoline station, which does not require work of this kind, is being authorized to a limited extent at the present time.



WAR AND DEMOBILIZATION

[Stage Direction]
^PROVISION FOR APPROPRIATION OF $1,365,000,000 FOR WAR PURPOSES, DEMOBILIZATION, PROMOTION OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY, ETC.
Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide, inter alia,
1.	That sums not exceeding $1,365,060,000 be granted to His Majesty towards defraying any expenses or making any advances or loans that may be incurred or granted by or under the authority of the governor in council during the year ending March 31, 1946, for-
(a)	the security, defence, peace, order and welfare of Canada;
(b)	the conduct of naval, military and air operations in or beyond Canada;
(c)	the expeditious demobilization of the Canadian armed forces;

War and Demobilization
(d)	promoting the continuance of trade, industry and business communications, whether by means of insurance or indemnity against war risk or in any other manner whatsoever; and
(e)	the carrying out of any measure deemed necessary or advisable by the governor in council in consequence of the war.
2.	That the governor in council be empowered to raise by way of loan under the provisions of the Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act. 1931, such sum or sums of money, not exceeding in the whole the sum of $1,365,000,000 as may be required for the purpose of defraying such expenses or making such advances or loans, the principal and interest of any such loan to be a charge upon and payable out of the consolidated revenue fund.
3.	That the governor in council be empowered to reexpend, advance or loan moneys that may be received by way of refund or repayment of advances, loans or expenditure under the War Appropriation Acts of 1939 (second session), 1940, 1941, 1942, 1943, 1944 and 1945.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I believe that you, sir, and the house are already familiar with the general purpose and nature of this resolution as a result of the consideration of the previous resolution and bill last week, which provided for immediate use a portion of the funds asked for under this resolution.
The form of this resolution is almost identical with those which have been introduced in previous years, asking for authority to introduce a bill designed to provide the appropriation required for war expenditures. There is a difference, however, which hon. members will no doubt have noted, in the detail of the resolution, which is that item (c) of paragraph 1 is a new item, providing explicitly that the funds being appropriated may be used "for the expeditious demobilization of the Canadian armed forces". This specific reference to demobilization will be carried over into the bill, both by the inclusion of the clause mentioned and by appropriate references in the title and preamble. This shift in emphasis to include demobilization is similar to that which took place after the last war in 1919, when parliament passed the Demobilization Appropriation Act. In view of the substantial number and amount of continuing costs of the war other than demobilization proper, I think it is more correct at this time to entitle our bill "The War Expenditure and Demobilization Appropriation Act".
I think it is essential at the beginning to realize that war expenditures proper must continue for some time after the actual end of hostilities. We have still very large bills 47696-35J
to pay for the actual costs of equipping and supplying our fighting forces, particularly in the case of the army. Our forces are still mobilized and in many cases still beyond Canada, and they must be provided not only with pay and allowances, but with food, shelter, clothing and various other supplies and services. Some of our forces are engaged in the occupation of enemy territory and costs will continue to be incurred on this account for some time. The process of demobilization and discharge of the forces itself involves heavy expenditures apart from those of gratuities and re-establishment credits. The sudden termination of our war production involves very heavy expenditures in reimbursing contractors for costs which they had already incurred for production that will not now be needed and for other costs of cancelling war contracts. Many of the other more indirect costs of the war must continue, at least for a brief period after the end of hostilities-for example, the cost of the subsidies which are necessary in order to maintain our stabilization policy against the serious threats of inflation arising from shortages created by the war. Many outstanding accounts between Canada and Allied countries, particularly the United Kingdom and the United States have still to be determined in detail and settled.
It is clear, therefore, that quite apart from any future operations, however fast we manage to return to peace-time conditions and however strictly we may limit the incurring of new costs, the government will be faced for some months with heavy expenditures arising from the war. It is, of course, the government's earnest desire, as I am sure it is the desire of all members on both sides of the house, that war expenditures shall be terminated now as soon as possible. I should also state that it is our hope, and I am sure it will be the hope of the house, to return as quickly as possible to the normal peace-time practice of presenting detailed estimates to parliament to be voted in detail, rather than total appropriations to be voted as a whole, which practice has been and is still necessary in war appropriations, where so many uncertain amounts and unforeseen contingencies must be anticipated.
The amount of the appropriation for which the government is now asking is $1,365,000,000. Adding this to the interim appropriation of
War and Demobilization
[Stage Direction]
$2,000,000,000 provided for war purposes by the last parliament in April of this year, we obtain a total for the fiscal year of $3,365,000,000. This total may be compared with total war expenditures for other years, but in doing so it is necessary to include in other years the amounts requested for Mutual Aid and similar purposes, because this year Mutual Aid was included as one of the purposes for which the interim appropriation could be used. It will be noted that this amount of $3,365,000,000 is $1,085,000,000 less than the total of the war and the mutual aid appropriations provided last year. Thus it represents already a very substantial reduction in our war expenditures, despite the fact that it contains very large amounts of bills carried over from previous years and large costs for the termination of war production. Moreover, it will be noted that the amount required for the latter half of this year is very much less than that required for the first half, even though many of the expenditures to be made in the latter half were really incurred during the period of fighting.
Before proceeding to speak of the estimates on which our total appropriation is based, and to note some of the factors affecting such estimates, I wish to emphasize that there is still a great deal of difficulty in forecasting our expenditures accurately, and therefore in making firm estimates even now when the fighting is over and when half the fiscal year is finished. In many cases, of course, our estimating problems are easier because we no longer have to make highly uncertain assumptions about the course of military operations and the amounts of equipment and supplies that will be necessary for them. The remaining new costs to be incurred are largely those connected with personnel, and once the programme of demobilization has been reasonably well established, we can expect to forecast with some accuracy costs of pay and allowances, travelling, transportation, and similar items. On the other hand, a great many of the costs which will be seen in the detailed estimates of the services represent amounts still to be paid in respect of equipment, services and supplies obtained some time ago. In many cases substantial amounts have already been paid by the Department of Munitions and Supply for these items, but the final bills have not yet been presented to and paid by the service departments. In the relatively short time since the termination of hostilities, it has not been possible to calculate with accuracy how much one should therefore allow in the estimates for refunds to the

Department of Munitions and Supply accounts, which should be deducted from the total amount required by the government as a whole. In other cases, supplies have been obtained from the United Kingdom and the United States and some payments made on account, but there remains a balance to pay which it is difficult to forecast until final decisions are reached in regard to the details of amounts and prices. Finally, there is the cost of the termination of war contracts, arising from the sudden end of hostilities last month. There has not been time in the last few weeks fully to assess the effect of that happy event upon the costs of war production. Immediately upon receiving word that Japan was prepared to surrender, the government proceeded to cancel thousands of contracts for the production of munitions and other supplies, and, of course, our chief concern was to see that these cancellations were made , as promptly and economically as possible. After this has been done, much work is still needed to determine exactly what the costs on all this multitude of accounts wTill be, and I must confess that in framing our estimates for the amounts required for cancellation of contracts we have had to proceed on the basis of informed judgment of those in the best position to know, rather than on a detailed analysis of accounts which cannot be completed quickly enough for our purpose.
I have stressed these points about outstanding accounts because I believe it is vital for the house to realize, first, that many of the costs still to be paid are in- respect of operations now completed, and, secondly, that there is still considerable uncertainty as to exactly what these will turn out to be.
For the convenience of members of the house in the debate on this appropriation, I propose to place on Hansard, if I have the unanimous consent of the house, tables showing the various estimates for departments, which have been prepared and considered by the government in arriving at the figure for the appropriation for which parliament is being asked. The first of these tables is a summary one, listing the amounts required for the various departments, showing also the amounts which it is expected would be charged to active assets and the deduction for the estimated amount that is expected to be recoverable from the munitions production allotment fund of the Department of Munitions and Supply.
The table follows:

War and Demobilization
War Expenditures and Demobilization Appropriations 1945-46 Summary of estimated expenditures by services for the fiscal year 1945-46
National Defence

Army Services . Navy Services .. Air Services .... Sundry Services
Munitions and Supply
Other Services-
Agriculture	
Auditor General's Office	
Civil Service Commission	
External Affairs	
Finance	
Fisheries	
Justice	
Labour	
Military Relief (partially recoverable)
Mines and Resources	
Mutual Aid, excluding UNRRA	
Mutual Aid-UNRRA	
National Harbours Board	
National Health and Welfare	
National Research Council	
National War Services	
Post Office	
Privy Council Office	
Public Works	
Reconstruction	
Royal Canadian Mounted Police	
Secretary of State	
Trade and Commerce	
Transport	
Transport-Air	
Veterans Affairs	
Provision for contingencies	
Active Assets	
Unallotted portion of the present appropriation available for future requirements. ...
Total estimated requirements chargeable to the war and demobilization appropriation..
Less estimated amount recoverable from the munitions production allotment fund	
Amount
already
granted
[Stage Direction]
Additional amount required to March 31/46
[Stage Direction]
Total amount required for 1945-46
[Stage Direction]
War and Demobilization
[Stage Direction]
The second is a detailed table of the estimated requirements of the army, navy and air services under the various categories which have been used in this house in recent years, and also showing the detailed purposes for which funds have been requested from the' war expenditure appropriation by other departments. The following is the table:
War Expenditures and Demobilization Appropriations-1945-46 Details of estimated expenditures by departments and services for the fiscal year 1945-46
National Defence Army Services-
Civil Salaries and Wages	
Pay and Allowances	
Travel, Transportation and Freight	
Construction, Purchase, Repairs and Operating Expenses of Properties	
Personnel Supplies and Services:
Food, Medical and Dental Stores, Clothing
and Personal Equipment	
Signal and Wireless Equipment, Line Construction, etc	
Ammunition and Bombs	
Armament, including Rifles, Machine Guns, Mortars and Guns of all Descriptions. .. M.T. Vehicles:	Trucks, Tractors, Trailers,
Tanks, A.F.Vs., and Repair Parts	
Operating Cost of Mechanical Transport: Fuel, Maintenance, etc. (not including
repair parts)	
Sundries, including Printing, Stationery, Telephones, Telegrams and Other Costs not included in above items	
Naval Services-
Civil S*alaries and Wages	
Pay and Allowances	
Travel, Transportation and Freight	
Construction, Purchase, Repairs and Operating Expenses of Properties	
Personnel Supplies and Services:	Food,
Medical and Dental Stores, Clothing and
Personal Equipment	
Signal and Wireless Equipment, Line Construction, etc	
Ammunition and Bombs	
Armament, including Rifles, Machine Guns,
Naval Guns, etc	
Fuel Cost of Ships	
Acquisition, Construction, Charter, Repair
and Upkeep of Ships	
Naval Stores:	Small Boats, Minesweeping,
Degaussing, Anti-Submarine, Fire-Fighting and Training Equipment, etc	
Miscellaneous Stores and Services:
Printing, Stationery, Laundry, Office
Machinery, Teletype Rental, etc	
Sundries: Postage, Pilotage, Prize Funds and Other Costs not included in above items.
Amount
already
granted
$	6,150,000
295,800,000
21.700.000
11.100.000
48,150,090
3,600,000 ,	19,900,000
12.750.000
29.200.000
8.500.000
3.150.000
460,000,000
2,654,295
65,319,424
4,073,016
5,098,84(7
6,190,505
1,534,289
2,296,855
5,696,055
5,013,08:2
15,203,721
7,587,039
5,025,756
1,976,013
127,667,897
'Additional amount required to March 31/46
$	4,739,948
179476,990 44,236,968
29,677,263
94,707,171
9,425,424
50,625,161
71,256,979
96,802,216
17,274,636
10,244,771
608,170,527
4,384,039
33,031,823
5,935,853
9,809,277
6,714,774
9,868,000
6,766,708
19,021,770
4,902,188
35,491,842
22,058,241
5,818,822
8,057,433
171,860,770
Total amount required 1945-46
$	10,889,948
474,976,990 65,939,968
40,777,263
142,857,171
13,025,424
70,526,161
84,006,979
126,002,216
25,774,636
13,394,771
1,068,170,527
7,038,334
98,351,247
10,008,869
14,908,124
12.905.279
11,402,289
9,063,563
24,716,825
9,915,270
50,695,563
29.645.280
10,844,578
10,033,446
299,528,667
*In many categories, this includes largely amounts required for settlement of outstanding accounts.
[Stage Direction]
War and Demobilization
Details of estimated expenditures by departments and services for the fiscal year 1945-46-Con.
Amount	*Additional amount	Total amountalready	required to	requiredgranted	March 31/46	1945-46Air Services- Civil Salaries and Wages	6,294,610	5,799,710	12,094,320Pay and Allowances	130,033,315	139,404,019	269,437,334Travel, Transportation and Freight	9,076,361	14,836,414	23,912,775Construction, Purchase, Repairs and Operating Expenses of Properties	10,179,463	16,652,964	26,832,427Personnel Supplies and Services: Food, Medical and Dental Stores, Clothing and Personal Equipment	7,423,964	7,637,710	15,061,674Signal and Wireless Equipment, Line Construction, etc	**.	3,864,475	12,860,044	16,724,519Ammunition and Bombs	2,288,129	8,198,939	10,487,068M.T. Vehicles and Marine Craft: Capital Cost and Repairs	1,063,180	1,388,352	2,451,532Fuel Costs for Aircraft, M.T. and Marine Craft 	6,019,702	18,327,677	24,347,379Aircraft Engines and Spares, including Overhaul 	25,204,117	46,676,988	71,881,105Miscellaneous Stores and Equipment, including Machine Guns and Other Armament....	2,408,129	3,836,871	6,245,000Flying Training Contracts	1,000,000	- ' -	1,000,000Maintenance of Overseas Squadrons	120,000,000	9,018,454	129,018,454Sundries, including Printing, Stationery, Telephones, Telegrams, Teletype Rentals and Other Costs not included in Above Items..	1,129,594	3,002,473	4,132,067325,985,039	287,640,615	613,625,654Less: Estimated Recoverable Items	-	15,138,538	15,138,538325,985,039	272,502,077	598,487,116Sundry Services- Departmental Administration 	575,000	1,119,000	1,694,000Experimental Station, Suffield	820,000	1,360,342	2,180,342Internment Operations and Refugee Camps..	595,000	1,258,296	1,853,296Dependents' Allowance Board	250,000	586,600	836,600Dependents' Supplementary Grants Fund....	1,915,000	3,165,000	5,080,000Inspection Board of the United Kingdom and Canada 	2,200,000	3,100,000	5,300,000Imperial War Graves Commission	9,000	44,640	53,6406,364,000	10,633,878	16,997,878Munitions and Supply Departmental Administration	3,700,000	3,300,000	7,000,000Termination of Contracts	15,000,000	160,000,000	175,000,000General Expenses, including Housing Development, Cargo Vessels operated by Park Steamships, Emergency Coal Production Board, etc	50,600,000	49,400,000	100,000,00069,300,000	212,700,000	282,000,000
*In many categories, this includes largely amounts required for settlement of outstanding accounts.
War and Demobilization
[Stage Direction]
Details of estimated expenditures by departments and services for the fiscal year
Agriculture
Agricultural Food Board-
Administration	
Subsidies to Producers of Food Products...
Agricultural Supplies Board-
Administration	
Programmes to encourage the production of
essentia] war supplies	
Assistance in disposal of agricultural products
rendered surplus by war	
Feeds Administrator-
Administration	
Freight assistance on Western feed grains.. Subsidy on Western wheat used as feed for
live stock	
Reserve Stocks of Feed Grains as per
Plan "A"	
Other Programmes	
Flax Fibre Administrator-
Administration	
Fertilizers and Pesticides Administrator-"
Administration	
Fertilizers subventions and freight allowances	
Payments to Provinces for use of lime for
soil amendment purposes	
Seeds Administrator-
Administration	
Seed Programmes	
Dairy Products Board-
Administration	
Purchase of Creamery Butter for Storage___
Meat Board-
Administration	
Premiums on Hog Carcasses suitable for
export to Great Britain	
Other Programmes	
Special Products Board-
Administration	
To provide funds to pay for dehydrated agricultural products prior to receipt of
payment from the ultimate purchasers....
Other Programmes	
Seed Export Office-
Administration	
Sundry Services	
Auditor General's Office Audit of War Expenditure	
Civil Service Commission Supply of Personnel for War Services
External Affairs
Departmental Administration and Passport
Office	
Representation Abroad	
Repatriation of Prisoners of War	
Expenses of Delegation to United Nations Conference at San Francisco	
Sundry Service	
Amount
already
granted
21,334
27,111,749
20,219
450,382
400,000
17,978
6,000,000 .
3,250,000
766.667
6,400
14,870
11,336
437,500
141.667
5,615
49,179
11,494
2,000,000
43,898
5,349,998
56,500
40,528
2,000,000
121,280
12,283
2,000
48,342,877
Additional amount required to March 31/46
40,695
27.050.000
28,005
174,111
1.050.000
30,168
10.500.000
4.750.000 533,333
21,980
18,185
250.000
7,290
120.000
17,608
61,190
8,650,002
97,500
41,858
26,400
21,736
53,490,061
117,509	172,491
240,908	417,600
46,606	40,694
37,425	34,000
22,000	8,000
127,700	____
41,931	27,969
275,662	110,663
1945-46-Con.
Total amount required for 1945-46
62,029
54,161,749
48,224
624,493
1.450.000
48,146
16,500,000
8,000,000
1.300.000
6,400
36,850
29,521
437,500
391,667
12,905
169,179
29,102
2,000,000
105,088
14.000.000
154,000
82,386
2,000.000
147,680
34,019
2,000
101.832.938
290,000
658,508
87,300
71,425
30,000
127,700
69,900
386,325
IMr. Ilsley.]

War and Demobilization
Details of estimated expenditures by departments and services for the fiscal year			1945-46-Con.
Amount	Additional amount	Total amountalready	required to	required forFinance	granted	March 31/46	1945-46Comptroller of the Treasury	4,205,500	5,206,250	9,411,750Wartime Prices and Trade Board-[DOT] Administration 	5,903,000	10,197,000	16,100,000Commodity Prices Stabilization Corporation..	30,000,000	70,000,000	100,000,000Payments to Millers and other Manufacturers of Wheat Products 	7,500,000	10,500,000	18,000,000Employees' Plan-Victory Loans- Administration 	95,000	135,000	230,000Expenses of Dominion-Provincial Conference...	46,875	100,000	146,875National Housing Branch-House Conversion Programme	1,482,700	1,858,000	3,340,700Sundry Services 	98,416	47,584	146,00049,331,491	98,043,834	147,375,325Fisheries Assistance in the construction of vessels of the Packer-Seiner type 	27,200	22,300	49,500Assistance in the construction of vessels of the Dragger type and the conversion of fishing schooners to Draggers	100,000	50,000	150,000To provide for the payment of subsidies in connection with the purchase of Canadian Canned Salmon	740,000	460,000	1,200,000Operation of Experimental Long Line Fishing Vessel 	25,000	25,000	50,000Construction of Fishermen's Floats, Prince Rupert, B.C	33,638	45,400	79,038Sundry Services 	44,722	77,290	122,012970,560	679,990	1.650,550Justice Administration of the Defence of Canada Regulations 	1,000	4,000	5,000Expenditures in connection with Prize Courts..	3,000	7,000	10,000Commission re Inquiry into Disorders at Halifax NS 	14,500 1,660	14,500Sundry Services 	2,740	4,40020,160	13,740	33,900Labour National Selective Service Programme- Labour Supplv-Administration 	315,850	476,740	792,590Mobilization Division 	1,039.500	135,500	1,175.000Manpower Statistics Unit	93,130	81,870	175,000National Registration, Administration	149,170	175,455	324,625Expenses in connection with work to be performed by the Unemployment Insurance Commission 	3,867,200	6,271,600	10,138,800National War Labour Board and Regional Boards 	213,610	236,089	449,699Wartime Bureau of Technical Personnel	68,990	81,010	150,000War Emergency Training- Administration 	22,580	32,420	55,000Payments to the Provinces re training for skilled and semi-skilled occupations connected with war work	474,100	325,900	800,000Payments to the Provinces for Aircraft Manufacturing and for Ground Mechanics	15,000	15,000
War and Demobilization
[Stage Direction]
Details of estimated expenditures by departments and services for the fiscal year 1945-46___Con.
Labour-Con.
Vocational Training of discharged members of
Canada's Armed Forces	
Assistance in meeting extra costs of Universities in accelerating certain courses and to
provide loans to students	
Assistance to the provinces in recruiting and
placing labourers on farms	
Transportation expenses of members of Armed Forces who have been granted harvest leave. Co-ordination of ship loading and unloading at Halifax	
Stabilization of Longshore Labour, Halifax. .. Payments to the Provinces in connection with organizing and operating day nurseries and
like facilities	
Industrial Production Cooperation Board-
Administration	
Wartime Labour Relations Board-
Administration	
Removal of Enemy Aliens from protected areas. Unemployment Insurance Commission- General labour transference in war industries
and agriculture	
Assistance to Provinces in transporting
labourers to farms	
Transfer of Ex-coal mine workers	
Army Labour Annual Revolving Fund	
Japanese Wood Projects Annual Revolving
Fund	7
Industrial Selection and Release Board and
Committees	
Vocational Training Co-ordination Act- Payments to the Provinces under Agreements

Respecting training and retraining of
former war workers	
Respecting Dominion Assistance to Vocational Schools	
Respecting capital expenditures for Vocational School Buildings and Equipment.. Sundry Services	
Mines and Resources
Administrative Branch-
Report on resources, etc. of Canada's
Northwest Region	
Mines and Geology Branch-
Reimbursement of R.C.A.F. for aerial photography	
Remodelling and expansion of plant of
Abasand Oils Limited	
Investigations of petroliferous deposits and
areas	
Special exploration, etc. re supply of strategic
minerals	
Bureau of Mines-Metallic Minerals
[Stage Direction]
Services to War Departments and expansion of phs'sical metallurgy investigations. Bureau of Mines-Extension to Metallurgical
Laboratories	
Bureau of Geology and Topography-Postwar Reconstruction Programmes-Planning. ..
Sundry Services	
Amount already granted	Additional amount required to March 31/46	Total amount required for 1945-461,171,500	2,978,500	4,150,00055,500	19,500	75,000170,000	505,000	675,000104,000	146,000	260,00053,615	54,385	108,000160,000	90,000	250,000233,000	217,000	450,00056,385	91,615	148,00043,650	81,350	125,0001,104,000	1,546,000	2,650,000250,000	300,000	550,000110,000 35,000	290,000 65,000	400.000 100.00040,000	110,000	150,00083,000	1,17,000	200,000500,000	500,000333,334	1,166,666	1,500,000333,334	1,666,666	2,000,000500,000	2,500,000	3,000,00058,398	26,603	85,00111,153,846	20,287,860	31,441,715750	4,250	5,0001,200	648,800	650,000350,000	50,000	400,00083,333	116,667	200,0006,850	3,150	10,000141,666	198,334	340,000301,665	423,670	725,33565,9117 29,805	219,083 42,976	285,000 72,780
[Stage Direction]
War and Demobilization
Details of estimated expenditures by departments and services for the fiscal year 1945-46-Con.
Mines and Resources-Con.
Lands, Parks and Forests Branch-
Dominion Forest Service-
Internment and Prisoners of War Operations	
Forest Products Laboratories	
Alternative Service Work Camps	
Land Registry - Alaska Highway - Legal,
Survey and other costs	
Postwar Reconstruction Programmes-
Planning	
National Parks Bureau

Alternative Service Work Camps	
Surveys and Engineering Branch
[Stage Direction]
Prince Rupert-Terrace-Cedarvale Highway... Employment of Persons of the Japanese Race
and/or Japanese Nationals	
Postwar Reconstruction Programmes-Planning	
Sundry Services	
Immigration Branch-
Expenses in connection with British Evacuee
Children	
Expenditures in connection with looking after
Canadian Interests Abroad	
Medical Inspection of dependents of members of the Armed Forces and of the Corps of
(Civilian) Canadian Fire Fighters	
Assistance to National Advisory Committee
for Children from Overseas	
Sundry Services	
National Harbours Board
Equipment and Operation of Fire Tug Rouille
at Halifax	
Halifax Harbour-Special Fire Protection...
Halifax-Reconstruction of Transit Shed No. 21 Halifax-Construction of additional platform and shelter roof at embarkation areas, ocean
terminals	
Vancouver-Dredging False Creek to depth of 14 feet	
National Health and Welfare
Old Age Pensions and Pensions to the Blind___
Industrial Hygiene, including Inspection of Industrial Plants	
Laboratory analyses and services for Department of National Defence	
Public Health Engineering-Inspection of Camp Sites and Airports for Department of National Defence in connection with Sanitation and Water Supply	
Quarantine Medical Service-at Ports of Halifax, Quebec, Sydney, Montreal and Other Ports	
Amount already granted	Additional amount required to March 31/46	Total amount required for 1945-4623,335 32,160 55,630	36,665 49,840 62,370	60,000 82,000 118,00026,000	19,300	45,30021,508	110,492	132,000149,000	200,000	349,00014,500	20,500	35,000210,000	210,000	420,000335,192 51,432	288,498 54,615	623,690 106,04760,000	60,000309,150	465,850	775,00037,500	52,500	90,00020,833 15,487	29,167 8,900	50,000 24,3872,342,913	3,315,626	5,658,53921,000	46,000	67,00035,000	15,000	50,00080,000	220,000	300,00025,000	25,0002,500	2,500163,500	281,000	444,5003,700,000	5,500,000	9,200,00014,575	22,435	37,0105,825	5,82514,570	20,430	35,00035,525	22,316	57,841556	COMMONS
War and Demobilization
Details of estimated expenditures by departments and services	for the fiscal year	194546-Com.National Health and Welfare-Con.	Amount	Additional amount	Total amountalready	required to	required forgranted	March 31/46	194546.Processing, Storage and Distribution of Blood	for Transfusion	237,764	237,764Maintenance, medical and other care of incapacitated non-resident seamen pending deporta-	tion 	16,665	23,335	40,000Grant to the Canadian Nurses Association to increase the supply of qualified nurses in	Canada 	104,150	55,800	159,950Contribution towards Health Services at	Halifax 	18,750	11,250	30,000Sundry Services	54,622	56,392	111,0144,202,446	5,711,958	9,914,404National Research Council	Special War Activities	1,550,000	1,733,700	3,283,700National War Services	Departmental Administration	36,904	49,779	86,683War Charities Division-	Administration 	29.109	33,601	62,710Auxiliary Services	8,050,000	9,450,000	17,500,000Recoverable Advances for purchases of Can-	teen Supplies	1,005,750	1,005,750Salvage Division	72,135	68,000	140,135Corps of (Civilian) Canadian Fire Fighters for	the United Kingdom 	210,655	210,655Citizenship Division 	13,365	37,070	50,435Censorship-	Administration 	8,960	4,325	13,285Information and Records Branch	55,365	5,000	60,365Postal Censorship 	601,723	25,000	626,723'Censorship of Publications 	46,115	14,500	60.615Telegraph and Cable, etc. Censorship	135,815	29,400	165,215Canadian Broadcasting Corporation-	Short Wave Station 	713,469	390,847	1,104,316National Film Board-	Special War Film Library 	17,167	22,833	40,000Wartime Information Film Programme	504.167	585,833	1.090,000Acquisition of Film Prints for Sale 	12,500	17,500	30,000.Still Photograph Production and Distribution	40,750	79,250	120,000Revolving Fund for Production of Films	500,000	500.000Sundry Services 	29,704	43,636	73,34012,083,653	10,856,574	22,940,227Post Office	Canadian Postal Corps 	345,705	345,705Sundry Services 	3,823	2,100	5,923349,528	2,100	351,628Privy Council	Statutory Orders and Regulations Division	15,263	22,165	37,428Wartime Information Board 	332,917	463,083	796.000Rehabilitation Information Committee 	540,092	100,000	640,092Sundry Services 	7,145	11,777	18,922895,417	597,025	1,492,442
IMr. Haley.3

War and Demobilization
Details of estimated expenditures by departments
Public Works
Chief Architect's Branch-
Repairs, Alterations, Operation and Maintenance of Buildings occupied for War
Purposes	
Rental of Premises occupied for War Purposes	
Furniture, etc., for War Employees	
Postwar Construction Programme-Preparation of plans, specifications, etc	
Armoury accommodation for Canadian Officers Training Corps Units	
Halifax, N,S.-Construction of temporary office building for Dept, of Veterans Affairs. London, Ont.-Purchase and Alterations to Garvey Building for Dept, of Veterans
Affairs	
Ottawa, Ont.-Addition to Temporary Building No. 8, Carling Ave	
Ottawa, Ont.-Annex to Records Building,
Carling Ave	
Quebec, P.Q.-Construction of Temporary
Office Building	
Vancouver, B.C.-Construction of Temporary Office Building for Dept, of Veterans Affairs Norman Wells, N.W.T.-Office and Living Accommodation	
Chief Engineer's Branch-
North Sydney, N.S.- -Reconstruction of wharf
and terminal facilities	
Saint John Harbour (Courtenay Bay) -
Dredging	
Waterways, Alta.-Improvements and Dredging in Athabaska and Clearwater Rivers... Post-war Construction Programme-Surveys, preparation of plans and specifications, etc. Seymour Narrows, B.C.-Removal of Ripple Rocks No. 1 and 2	
Telegraph Branch-
To provide for 24-hour service on the Pacific
Coast	
Ottawa-Telephone Service	
Contingencies	
Sundry Services	
Reconstruction
To provide for expenses of Surveys, Investigations and Research in various fields in order to obtain necessary data upon which Reconstruction plans and policies may be based....
Reconstruction Projects	
Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Increased Activities of the Force due to the
War	
Security Control Service	
and services for the fiscal year 1945-46-Con.
	Additional	
Amount already granted	amount required to March 31/46	Total amount required for 1945-46852,333	1,427,667	2,280,000850.000 250.000	1,050,000 360,000	1.900,000 600,00015,000	35,000	50,000-	55,000	55,00050,000	55,000	105,00075,500	114,500	190,00015,000	15,00041,000	....	41,000200,000	220,000	420,00025,000	335,000	360,00020,000	20,000110,500	110,50035,000	35,00068,800	5,900	74,700155,800	194,200	350,000257,697	30,000	287,69732,500 154,000	47,500 166,000	80,000 320.00011,000	22,000	33,00012,700	8,500	21,2003,231,830	4,116,267	7,348,097107,500	200,000 5,000,000	307,500 5,000,000107,500	5,200,000	5,307,5003,183,675	2,479,625	5,663,30047,207	17,207	64,4143,230,882	2,496,832	5,727,714
War and Demobilization
[Stage Direction]
Details of estimated expenditures by departments and services for the fiscal year 1945-46-Con.
Secretary of State
Department Generally	
Sundry Services	
Trade and Commerce
Export Permit Branch

Administration	
Canadian Shipping Board-
Administration	
Revolving Chartering Fund	
Shipping Priorities Committee-Administration Steamship Subsidies War Stabilization Fund... Canadian Export Board-
Administration	
Revolving Fund	
Sundries	
Transport
Departmental Administration	
Transport Controller's Office	
Director of Merchant Seamen	
Joint U.S.A.-Canada Defence-Purchase, leasing or otherwise acquiring properties	
Marine Service-
Marine Service Steamers, including Icebreakers	
War Bonus to Crews of Departmental Vessels operating in War Zones	
Dominion Lighthouse Depot, Prescott-
Revolving Fund	
Aids to Navigation	
Nautical Services	
Compensation to Masters and Crews of Canadian Vessels for loss of personal effects__
Government Employees Compensation Act-
Administration	
Railway and Steamship Service-
Cost of fitting Canadian Ships, as well as foreign flag vessels either seized in prize or requisitioned by the Canadian Government,
with special defensive apparatus	
Design, construction and operation of additional harbour and transportation facilities
at the Port of Halifax, N.S	
Assistance to the Canadian National Railway Co. in the development of the iron ore deposit owned by the Steep Rock Iron
Mines Ltd. near Atitokan, Ont....'	
Contribution towards the reduction of freight rates on iron ore to be shipped from Steep Rock Mines Ltd	
Air Service-
Special Radio Interception and Monitoring Services, Weather Observation and Teletype
Services-
Radio Service-Operation and Maintenance.. Radio Service-Construction and Improvements	
Meteorological Service	
{Mr. Ilsley.]
Amount already granted	Additional amount required to March 31/46	Total amount required for 1945-462,000	6,000	8,000751	250	1,0012,751	6,250	9,00172,938	108,487	181,42545,695 200,000	66,405 300,000	112,100 500,00020,860	34,140	55.000200,000	300,000	500,00041,236 500,000	68,555 500,000	109,791 1,000,0005,000	5,0001,085,729	1,377,587	2,463,31616,810	26,125	42,935136,250	180,750	317,0001,476,670	1,991,670	3,468,34025,000	75,000	100,00083,400	103,600	187,00041,600	58,400	100,000500,000 20,000 34,041	22,666 93,959	500.000 42,000 128.00041,000	34,000	75,00027,720	41,280	69,00087,500	87,500	175,00041,666	264,444	306,110416,667	828,752	1,245,419119,271	193,409	312,6803,067,595	4,000,889	7,068,484911,000	1,494,000	2,405,000171.000	274.000	445.000872,920	1,227,080	2,100,000
War and Demobilization
Details of estimated expenditures by departments
Transport-Con.
Civil Aviation Division-
Airway and Airport Traffic Control

..-
Operation and Maintenance of Municipal
(Terminal) Airports	
Moncton to Newfoundland Airline	
Airways and Airports-Construction and
Improvements	
Care and Maintenance of R.C.A.F. Airfields transferred to the Department of Transport
Mackenzie River Route	
Northwest Staging Route	
Construction of additional Hangar Space, Hospital and other facilities for use of the R.A.F. Transport Command at North Bay
and Dorval Airports	
Northeast (Crimson) Staging Route- Operation and Maintenance-
Maintenance of Airfields	
Operation and maintenance of Radio Facilities	 * *
Operation and maintenance of Meterological
Facilities	
Canadian Government Trans-Atlantic Air Service-
Payment to Trans-Canada Air Lines in connection with the carriage of Trans-Atlantic Air Mail	
Veterans Affairs
Treatment and Pension Examinations-Members and Ex-members of the Armed Forces
(Present War)	
Treatment-Royal Canadian Mouned Police... Pensions-Armed Forces; Fishermen; Seamen; Special Constables, R.C.M.P.; Civil Servants; Auxiliary Services and Civil Defence
Workers	
Detention Allowances on behalf of Canadian
Seamen	
Pensions under the Dual Service Pension Order and War Veterans Allowance Benefits to veterans of the present war and of the
Northwest Rebellion of 1885	
Gratuities-Canadian Fire Fighters	
Gratuities-Auxiliary Services	
Civil Defence	
Rehabilitation Benefits	
Investigations, Dependents' Allowance Board ..
Sundries	
Hospital Accommodation and Facilities	
Active Assets
Purchase of Railway Equipment-
Canadian National Railways	
Loan to Village of Dawson Creek, B.C. re Sewage Disposal System	
and services	for the fiscal year	1945-46-Con.Amount already granted	Additional amount required to March 31/46	Total amount required for 1945-46250,000	416,130	666,130140,000 25,000	373,555 50,000	513,555 75,000135,208	219,292	354,50087,000	263,000	350,000175,000	279,500	454,500641,875	588,625	1,230,500150,000	210,000	360,00075,335	263,665	339,0005,000	17,500	22,50022,220	77,780	100,0001,607,690	1,607,6905,269,248	5,754,127	11,023,3755,075,000	11,925,000	17,000,00035,000	65,000	100,0008,550,000	16,450,000	25,000,00039,000	11,000	50,00060,000	140,000	200,00070,000	105,000	175,00070,000	70,00082,076	87,925	170,0003,060,000	9,950,000	13,800,00016,00-0	54,000	70,00039,347	4,860	44,197183,762	15,640,102	15,823,85417,200,174	54,502,877	71,703,0514,587,340	19,056,754	23,644,09430,000	23,000	53,0004,617,340	19,079,754	23,697,094
War and Demobilization
[Stage Direction]
In all cases we are showing the amounts which have already been allotted to these various departments and purposes out of the interim appropriation granted by parliament in April of this year, and the additional amount which is expected to be required for the remainder of this fiscal year for the settlement of outstanding accounts and for expenditure incurred and paid during the remainder of the year. It will be noted that all about 186,000,000 of the $2,000,000,000 interim appropriation has already been allotted to, departments. The totals for the various categories for the year as a whole are also given. While these details, taken all together, add up to a rather formidable table, I think the hon. members will appreciate
having this information in this way for convenient reference.
I am also proposing to place upon Hansard at the same time a table of charges to the war appropriations by departments and main categories for each of the past five fiscal years. This record of actual expenditures will, I think, be of considerable use to members in placing in proper perspective the amounts currently required. Those who wish to compare the present appropriation and estimates with previous appropriations and estimates will find those for recent years conveniently set forth in Hansard of February 11, 1944, in the speech which I made in introducing the legislation last year, corresponding to the present legislation. The table is as follows:
Charges to War Appropriations by Fiscal Years, 1940-41 to 1944-45
(Thousands	
Departments and major items	1940-41
National Defence-Army Services....	$380,345
National Defence-Naval Services... National Defence-Air Services-	88,163
Overseas War Establishment	 Home War Establishment	 Air Training 	 Sundry 		5,362 49,415 121,502
	176,279
National Defence-Sundry Services-	
Dependents Allowance Supplementary Grants Fund	
Internment Operations 	
Inspection Board of the U.K. and	805Canada 	
Sundry 	2,0852,890Department of Munitions and Supply-	Administration 	
Investment in plant and equipment:	2,068Acquisition of U.K. Assets	
Other plant and equipment	64,902Investment in production assets	(working capital) 	12,398Sundry 	58679,954
Agriculture-
Disposal of agricultural products
rendered surplus by the war____	4,350
Subsidy to increase export bacon price to secure adequate supplies for the U.K	
Payments on cheese exports to the
Freight assistance on wrestern feed grains	
of dollars)
1941-42	1942-43	1943-44	1944-45$502,773 129,368	$1,021,944 210,182	$1,312,348 369,556	$1,243,732 417,09913,333 109,820 247,383 113	23,666 226,550 366,897 122	383,888 312,761 233,893 124	759,070 227,942 272,342 103370,649	617,235	930,666	1,259,45715	944	2,743	4,0411,370	1,556	1,100	1,5804,876	10,946	10,522	8.3622,135	2,400	2,092	4,0398,396	15,846	16,457	18,0224,930	9,457	9,957	8,842135,347	200,000 208,524	5.000 216,641	1,964 168,942106,560	245,000	427,724	4.8415,854	16,151	28,439	31,255252,691	679,132	687,761	215,8442,260	2,901	1,876	1,1942,281	1,784	....3,972	10,318	17,754	15,943
[Stage Direction]
War and Demobilization
Charges to War Appropriations by Fiscal Years, 1940-41 to 1944-45-Con. (Thousands of dollars) 1 2
Departments and major items	1940-41	1941-42	1942-43	1943-44	1944-45Agriculture-Con. Payment to increase the income of farmers in the spring wheat area of western Canada 	16,299	2,678	19	2Fertilizer subventions and freight allowance	1,036	903	350Subsidy on western wheat used exclusively as feed for live stock.	836	4,500	7,471Subsidy on milk and milk products.	....	29,505	42,330Premium on hog carcasses suitable for export to Great Britain	3,855	14,091To provide for reserve stocks of feed grains 	....	1,292	715Sundry 	140	791	2,211	4,589	5,9584,490	27,387	19,980	64,293	88,054Finance- Comptroller of the Treasury	1,602	3,866	6,493	8,404	9,216Payment of premiums on the purchase of Dominion of Canada Registered Stock 	8,100	126	13	14Wartime Prices and Trade Board- Administration 	0)	1,437	9,278	13,705	12,720Subsidies due to application of Order placing a ceiling over all prices 	3,242	67,715	81,5(19	107,338Accountable advances for payment of drawback claims to millers and other manufacturers of wheat products 	20,500	19,700Deficits of Canadian Wheat Board	....	....	13,058Home Conversion Programme	....	4,053Old Age Pensions, increased benefits 	3,062	8,788Sundry 	90	80	1,051	1,258	1,6321,692	16,725	84,663	128,461	176,519Labour- Industrial training 	1,400	4,569	4,360	3,478	1,617Training aircraft mechanics 	249	1,489	2,019	1,378	333National Selective Service 	4,737	9,346	11,098Removal of enemy aliens from protected areas 	4,328	2,545	2,137Sundry 	248	496	1,383	2,891	4,4791,897	6,554	16.827	19,638	19,664Mines and Resources- Prince Rupert-Terrace-Cedarvale Highway 	10	2,965	5,750	2,499Employment of Japanese	71	1,686	894	511Sundry 	292	678	1,626	2,761	2,804292	759	6,277	9,405	5,814(1)	Included under Department of Labour.(2)	See Department of Trade and Commerce.
War and Demobilization
[Stage Direction]
Charges to War Appropriations by Fiscal Years, 1940-41 to 1944-45-Con. (Thousands of dollars)
Departments and major items	1940-41	1941-42	1942-43	1943-44	1944-45National War Services- War Charities 	1,175	6,499	10,9)10	15,933National Film Board 	....	10	122	1,220	1,341Censorship 	22	(3 4) 1,070	(3) 1,727	(3)1,856Sundry 	2,370	2,011	954	1,330	6,8522,370	3,218	8,645	15,187	25,982Pensions and National Health- Treatment-Defence Forces 	2,144	2,696	4,175	6,456	11.449Pensions-Defence Forces 	189	886	2,760	5,637	11,939Civil Defence 	140	619	5,027	1,724	484Sundry 	897	1,412	2,358	4,135	8,8873,370	5,613	14,320	17,952	32,759Public Works 	4,917	4,497	6,880	6,467	6,500Privy Council 	6	4	1,503	845	1,758Royal Canadian Mounted Police ..	2,385	3,001	3,870	4,267	3,709Trade and Commerce- Gift of wheat to Greece 	3,835	8,798	6.749Accountable advances for payment of drawback claims to millers and other manufacturers of wheat products 	1	3.000	(*)....	(<)....National Research Council 	419	1,125	2,091	2,640	2,932Sundry 	21	80	529	745	670440	1,205	9,455	12,183	10,351Transport 	1,464	5.228	5,762	9,941	16,433Acquisition of Airfields and Works from United States Government	66,600	18,661Other Departments and Miscellaneous 	1,091	1,606	1,728	2,393	4,543Military Relief 	50,199Total Expenditures 	752,045	1,339,674	2,724,249	3,674,420	3,615,100Charged to Active Assets	26,379	42,817	65,232	91,906	35,239Total Charges 	778,424	1,382,491	2,789,481	3,766,326	3,650,339The War Appropriation (U.K. Financing) Act, 1942	1,000,000	The War Appropriation (United Nations Mutual Aid) Acts 1943 and 1944 	....	912,603	803,346GRAND TOTAL 	778,424	1,382,491	3,789,481	4,678,929	4,453,685(3)	Including the censorship of telegrams, cables, etc., which was detailed under National Defence-Army, in previous years.(4)	See Department of Finance.	.
[Mr. Ilsley.l

War and Demobilization
Hon. members will note that the amount which the army estimates it will require for the current fiscal year is approximately SI,068 million, which compares with an estimate of $1,535 million for last year and actual expenditures for last year of $1,244 million. I should point out that it has always been particularly difficult to forecast the army's requirements accurately because it has drawn the bulk of the supplies it has currently required from United Kingdom stocks and paid for them as they were used. Consequently its expenditures depended very much upon the actual course of operations, and it was necessary to leave a considerable margin of safety in such items as ammunition, armament, and fighting vehicles. On the other hand, this year the army in particular is faced with a large accumulation of outstanding accounts to be settled for items supplied to it in previous years both from Canadian and United Kingdom sources. This will be quite evident to members if they examine with care the items for the additional amounts required in the balance of the fiscal year in the various categories under army services, where considerable amounts are shown for items of which obviously no substantial future deliveries will now be necessary. Of course, the principal questions of substance in regard to the expenditures which the army will be incurring henceforward are the rates of demobilization and repatriation, and the size and nature of the occupation forces and the continuing army establishment. These are matters which must be left for the Minister of National Defence to explain and to discuss with the house, and I shall therefore not attempt to make any comment upon them except to say that on financial grounds, as well as other equally important grounds, the government has been determined to see that nothing is allowed to stand in the way of the most rapid and most equitable repatriation and demobilization of our forces.
For naval services the amount of the estimate for the current year is approximately $300 million, which compares with an estimate last year of $410 million, and actual expenditures last year of $417 million. It will be noted from an examination of the details in the case of the navy that there are still substantial amounts to pay on outstanding accounts for equipment, ammunition, armaments, vessels and supplies of one sort and another which were obtained during the course of hostilities. The fairly rapid pace of demobilization in the naval services is indicated by the fact that pay and allowances for the last seven months of the year, that is, the additional amounts required
for this category, are only about half what they are for the first five months, despite the fact that special factors like clothing allowances and extra leave upon discharge swell the costs of this item.
In the case of air services, the estimate requested, after allowing for recoverable items, is approximately $600 million compared with an estimate last year of $1,090 million and actual expenditures last year of approximately $1,260 million. It will be noted in the case of air services that expenditures for the latter part of the year are substantially below those for the first five months. When one examines the details, the reason for this becomes evident as it shows up in the practical disappearance of the cost of maintenance of overseas squadrons. This is possible because the air force does not have now such large outstanding accounts as the other services have for supplies already received. The reason for this is that the cost of the overseas squadrons is paid monthly and there are not the same outstanding problems in determining the rate of such payments as there are in the case of the army.
I think it is unnecessary for me to make any particular comment on the items for sundry services under the Department of National Defence, which have been estimated for the current year at approximately $17 million as compared with $22 million last year. I should point out, however, that for administrative reasons the responsibility for military relief was transferred to the Mutual Aid board from the Department of National Defence, and consequently the expenditures on, and estimates for, this item no longer appear among the sundry national defence services, as I indicated they would in April of this year. Now that I have made reference to this item, I may well go on to point out that expenditures on it last year are shown at a total of $50 million, and the estimates of the amount required this year are shown to be $34 million, all of which have already been allotted. These expenditures represent the cost of supplies procured in Canada and shipped overseas for distribution by the combined military authorities during the course of military operations and in the zones of military control. They represent a part of the cost of military operations which takes the form of the provision of supplies to civilian populations on whom the military are dependent for assistance and co-operation or for whose maintenance they are responsible during the time they are in control of the territory. The countries receiving such supplies
War and Demobilization
[Stage Direction]
have been requested to pay for them, and it is expected that a large part of the moneys expended in this way will be recoverable.
It will be noted that the estimate for the Department of Munitions and Supply for the current year is $282 million, as compared with an estimate of $183 million last year and actual expenditures last year of approximately $216 million. These figures all exclude the effects of the amount recoverable from munitions production allotment fund and allotted to other expenditures outside the department which is shown separately at the bottom of the summary table. The nature of the expenditures for which this estimate is requested has largely changed from previous years, as now the main item is $175 million to cover the costs arising from the termination of contracts. These termination or cancellation costs are to be covered by one large item in this way rather than by individual items under the various headings appropriate to the use for which the deliveries were intended had the war gone on. Broadly speaking, this item therefore represents the cost of terminating our war production suddenly as a result of the unexpectedly early end of the hostilities against Japan. I should add that this figure does not represent the total cost, as there is also likely to be necessary some writing off of amounts advanced for production out of the munitions production allotment fund. As I have already warned the house, however, any estimate of these termination costs at this time is only an informed guess and it will be some months before we can be sure whether the figure included here is too high or too low.
The costs of Mutual Aid this year have been met from the interim war appropriation passed by parliament in April, as was specifically authorized in that appropriation, as well as from some funds carried over from the earlier Mutual Aid appropriations. Mutual Aid requirements were particularly heavy during the first five months of this current year-indeed, right up until the end of hostilities. Shipments of munitions and other war supplies to allied countries were at a high level in the opening months of the year while hostilities were still proceeding in Europe. After victory in Europe, the need for munitions and military supplies fell off substantially, but a good deal of war production was still required, particularly of aircraft and naval vessels for the war in the Pacific. On the other hand, there was a very drastic decline in the expenditures overseas of the Canadian army and air force, which had been providing the United Kingdom with Canadian dollars to pay for the cost of war supplies
'Mr, Ilsley.]
required from Canada. Consequently the need for Mutual Aid on the part of Britain remained at a high level during the period of intensive preparation for large scale operations in the Pacific.
In the figures of requirements for the current year for Mutual Aid, I have separated those for UNRRA, which will continue, from those for allied countries to which transfers of supplies as Mutual Aid were terminated as of September 2. The total allotted to Mutual Aid from the interim appropriation was $720,224,000. The amount required to complete our first contribution to UNRRA, in addition to the expenditures last year, is $65,907,000, all of which will. I expect, be spent this year. Deducting this from the total allotment leaves $654,317,000 as the amount required for Mutual Aid to allied countries from this year's appropriation. This figure includes the estimated cost of production of certain items not delivered by September 1, but which will be completed in the expectation that they can be sold. The proceeds of such sales cannot yet be estimated, but they will in due course be credited to our Mutual Aid account.
It will be noted that I have included a figure of $25,000,000 for UNRRA in the further amounts required for the current year but not yet provided. This is intended to enable us to furnish, before the end of our fiscal year, a portion of a second contribution to UNRRA, which the Canadian government has agreed' to make, provided that the United States and other contributing nations will also make a second contribution. The total of our second contribution would be the same as our first, that is, one per cent of our estimated national income for the year ended June 20, 1943, which amounts to $77,000,000 in all. It would mainly take the form of contributions of Canadian supplies, but it may be that we will contribute- a portion- in cash, as we did the first time, to provide UNRRA itself with some funds to meet expenses in Canada and elsewhere. I might add that in fact UNRRA is spending a large amount of its own free funds in Canada, as practically the whole of our first contribution was committed for the purchase of Canadian supplies at a fairly early date this year. I feel sure that all Canadians will be gratified that Canada is able to furnish substantial amounts of urgently needed supplies to the poor and suffering people of Allied countries through this democratic, international organization. The house will, I understand, hear further about UNRRA, if it wishes, during the debate on the war appropriation-, and there will be an opportunity to discuss Canada's part in UNRRA.

War and Demobilization
The amount estimated to be required for the Department of Veterans Affairs is, of course, considerably higher than in previous years. It includes pension costs for the veterans of this war andl for various others who have been accorded' pension rights similar to the armed services such as merchant seamen, fishermen, civil defence workers, etc. It also includes costs of hospitalization and rehabilitation benefits for veterans. It does not, however, include the qpst of war service gra-tuites and reestablishment credits, which are payable by statute out of unappropriated moneys in the consolidated revenue fund. The amount which we estimate will be required for war service gratuities and reestablishment credits is approximately $240 million, which will, of course, be an expenditure in addition to the appropriation being requested under this resolution and in addition to the amounts specified in the main estimates which have been presented to the house.
It will be noted that only the relatively small amount of $5 million for reconstruction projects has been included in the estimated amounts required this year. This is intended to cover only the costs incurred before the end of March next in projects not directly provided for by other departments, such as public works or housing, and which may be required, it is believed, on a relatively small scale in a few localities to meet the danger of unemployment in those areas of persons who cannot reasonably be expected to move to other areas where work is available and to make a start on some urgent developmental projects. This is in accordance with the general policy explained to the house the other evening by the Minister of Reconstruction. As he explained, there is a large volume of private work ready to go forward as soon as materials and labour can be made available for it. Much of this private investment is necessary if Canadians are going to be able to have steady and remunerative jobs in industry. In addition, all available building materials and, I believe, building labour, are urgently needed now for the building of houses, and we do not wish to utilize our scarce building supplies for public projects that can be deferred until later, when the acute housing demands have been met. So far as one can tell at this time, it appears that total expenditures in Canada, private, public and for exports, will be sufficient to maintain employment as a whole at satisfactory levels, despite the rapid rate of demobilization and the termination of war production. There will obviously be problems in the movement of workers to take advantage of the new demands
which are taking the place of the war demands, which have now ceased. I do not myself believe that large expenditures on reconstruction projects will be needed in the next six months to facilitate this process of readjustment. The general policy and philosophy of the government in regard to public investment have, of course, been set forth at considerable length in the proposals made by the government to the dominion-provincial conference on reconstruction, and I do not believe it is necessary for me to enter upon them here. What I do wish to point out is that the provision made in the present appropriation is based upon an appraisal of the situation over the next six months only, and cannot be taken as any guide to the scale of reconstruction expenditures that will later be required.
In conclusion I would like to say a word or two about the general scale and nature of our expenditures for the current year. Adding together the appropriations for war expenditures, the items covered in the main and supplementary estimates, and the items to which I have referred above for gratuities and re-establishment credits, one obtains a total of between $4,600 million and $4,700 million for expenditures in the current fiscal year. To this must be added certain other cash requirements, particularly those for export credits and the financing of the foreign exchange control board, which will bring our total requirements for the year above $5 billion. These are formidable figures. They show that the scale of our financial operations remains at the high levels achieved in the war. They make clear that the task of the Minister of Finance is still a difficult one. On the other hand, they mask to some extent the decline-the rapid decline -that is already occurring in the government's demands upon goods and services of the community. Already the government has cancelled practically all its contracts for purchases for war purposes. The substantial expenditures still to be made on these accounts represent almost entirely settlements in respect of past operations and the cancellation of contracts. At the same time, our armed forces are being demobilized as rapidy as is reasonably possible in all the circumstances. Indeed, I believe that this month the total number of men being released exceeds an average of 2,000 a day. The government is paying these men substantial amounts of deferred pay, of pay for leave upon discharge and clothing allowances, and will continue payments to them for some months in the form of gratuities and reestablishment credits. These men will nevertheless be available for useful employment in other fields. Even our expenditures under the main estimates this year
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include a much higher proportion than normal of what we may term "transfer payments," which do not represent a demand on the part of the government for either goods or services. This applies to the very large figures both for family allowances and for interest on the public debt, which, taken together, constitute well over half of the total of these estimates.
Bearing these facts in mind. I think it is evident that despite the apparently large totals of government expenditure this fiscal year, the activities of the government are in fact being rapidly curtailed, and supplies and services are being released quickly for use in meeting the demands of Canadian enterprise and Canadian consumers.
I should like before concluding to say a word or two about the scale of our expenditures and other cash requirements in relation to the ninth victory loan. This loan is to be obtained in the latter part of next month and the early part of November. It is to be our greatest victory loan, the climax of the series of outstanding successes which have been achieved in this vital part of our war finance. We have already announced that the minimum objective for the loan is to be one and one-half billion dollars-the largest objective we have ever set. It is natural that many people should be surprised that we should need so much money now that the fighting is all over, and I want to make the reason clear.
In the first place it should be realized that this is really two loans in one-it is intended to cover our borrowing needs for a year, and not for half a year, as previous victory loans have done. This is possible because our expenditures are declining rapidly and we believe we can now get along with one loan- if it is a big one. Our last two victory loans have each produced about a billion and a half dollars, which in each case has met our needs for about half a year. This new loan, which we hope and expect will exceed its objective and yield well over one and one-half billion, is intended to cover our needs for a full year. There will be no victory loan or similar loan next spring.
During the year following this ninth victory loan, and for which it is expected to provide the moneys required over and above our revenues, our expenditures and other cash requirements, including the loans we propose to make to allied nations for reconstruction, will probably amount in all to about four billion dollars. About thirty per cent of this will be for the normal and continuing expenses of civil government. The balance will include the costs of demobilization and rehabilitation of our servicemen, the costs of bringing them 
home from overseas, the costs of our occupation forces and post-war military forces, part of the cost of terminating war production, and some costs for reconstruction and new postwar development. It will also include hundreds of millions-how many I cannot yet say-for loans to allied nations for supplies urgently needed from Canada during the period of reconstruction. The government intends to ask authority from parliament in this session to make sqch loans to allied countries on a large scale.
In view of these large requirements I believe wTe must borrow something approaching two billion dollars for this period. This is a huge amount, even though it is much less than the totals we have borrowed in recent years. Something on this scale is required, however, if the total reduction in our expenditures and cash requirements is not to be reflected solely in our borrowing. It is with these needs in mind that we established one and one-half billion as the minimum objective for the ninth victory loan. I hope and believe that we will be able to exceed this objective by a good margin and thereby obtain from this one loan nearly all the borrowed money we shall require to carry us through until the fall of next year.
John Bracken: I am sure that the house has
listened with a great deal of interest to what the minister has had to say. It is not my intention to speak at this time. I had intended to speak for half an hour or more, and will take the opportunity of doing so later. For the information of the house I may say that one of our members, who is very much concerned with the war appropriation measure, has to leave, and I am therefore giving the floor to him. I refer to the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green).
Before he rises to speak I should like to say a word or two with respect to one item mentioned by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley), namely, the forthcoming victory loan. Plans for the securing of that loan is the task of the government, but I wish te say to the house at this time that we shall be glad to lend our support to the successful flotation of that loan. With these brief remarks I give the floor to the hon. member for Vancouver South because what I have to say can be said at a later time.


Mr. H. C. GREEN (Vancouver South):: Mr. Speaker, I am very grateful to my leader fot giving me this opportunity to speak, and to the leader of the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation (Mr. Coldwell), who also agreed that I should go ahead.

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I propose to say a few words about our defence forces and something about the policy that will be adopted with regard to them. I had intended to make my suggestions when the house is in committee, and I am a little premature in making them now on behalf of my party, but I am sure that the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Abbott) and the Minister of National Defence for Air (Mr. Gibson) will understand my reasons for doing so.
We are convinced that it would be in the interests of the house and of the country if the Minister of National Defence would make some broad statement of government policy with regard to Canada's defence forces in the years that lie ahead, rather than making two statements, one for the navy and one for the army, with a third statement to come from the Minister of National Defence for Air. It will be very difficult for the hon. members to give proper consideration to the policy if it comes piecemeal, namely, if the navy policy comes first and then two or three days later the army policy, and finally two or three days after that the air force policy. We should like to know the general picture. It may be that the air force is to be greater, as compared with the other forces, than before the war, or the same may be true of the navy or the army. We should like to have the over-all picture at the opening of the debate if the government can arrange to give it to us.
It seems to me that at the present time the Canadian people are very uncertain as to what the defence policy of this nation should be; perhaps there is some uncertainty in the minds of the members of the house and of the ministry, because it is a very difficult problem to solve. But there are certain facts which should be kept in mind. The first is that our civilization has been saved by our efforts during the last war. That is something we should never overlook. We should also remember that for a whole year the British peoples-I mean the peoples of the different nations of the commonwealth and of the colonial empire-stood alone between our enemies and the destruction of civilization. None of the peoples of the empire have any reason to hang their heads over the part they have played during the war. And of course that is true of Canada. Our fighting power was used to great advantage and was a real factor in winning the war. Our production of supplies and equipment has been splendid, and we have every reason to be proud of the part we have played.
Now Canada and the other nations of the world who believe in freedom are determined that there shall be no more wars; but rather than take the attitude which was taken after
the last war by saying, "Now let us forget all about war; there wiE never be war again," we are determined to defend the peace by force if necessary. I think that is the attitude of every nation that believes in freedom. Canada must play her part in defending the peace. There are other factors, too, which nust be kept in mind. There have been extensive scientific developments. I need only mention radar, rocket projectiles and the atomic bomb, which is made primarily from uranium from the pitchblende found in our own Northwest Territories. That fact alone should give Canadians a good deal of concern over our future defence policy. As I say, there have been, tremendous scientific developments during the period of the war. Another fact is that Canada is now more vulnerable than ever before. I certainly hope this may not be, but I think we must bear in mind that with aU these developments Canada might be the battleground if there should be another war.
Having those facts in mind, various members of the official opposition have given consideration to certain broad principles which we believe can be approved by everyone in this house and which we think will help the Canadian people to crystallize an opinion as to what the defence policy of Canada should be. In the first place we believe that two obligations in regard to defence should be recognized by the house and the Canadian people. The first is that we must be prepared to defend Canada to the very best of our ability. The second is that we must remain in a position to live up to our commitments to the united nations organization. This means that we must be prepared to do our share, by force if necessary, to maintain world peace. We must not get into the frame of mind where we expect somebody else, somebody else's sons, to be responsible for our defence and for maintaining world peace.
That is the first broad principle. The second is that we must not destroy the efficiency of our fighting forces. We on this side of the house are very much concerned for fear that is happening at the present moment. There is a great movement to demobilize, which is a perfectly proper thing t>o do; but we have met with this situation. Young officers have come in to us. For example, I had a young officer of the navy, with a distinguished career, come to me and say, "I should like to carry on in the Canadian navy. I think it is a grand profession; I think there is a service to be rendered to Canada and to the world, and I -should like to stay on. But I cannot find out w'hat the conditions are to be. I do not know what the rates of pay or the pensions are to
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be; or how many men will be required; as a result I have made up my mind to get out of the navy and go back into business." We had a young battalion commander, twice decorated for gallantry, one of the outstanding soldiers from my province of British Columbia, come in and say the same thing. He wanted to stay in the Canadian army, but he could not find out anything definite and he was not prepared to wait for a two-year period and take a chance on being able then to get back into business. So he decided' to get out just as quickly as he could. We have had the same position taken by outstanding men in the air force, and I think it is also true of skilled men in the ranks of all the services. I quite realize the government's difficulty. I know it is frightfully hard to draw up a definite policy at this stage. But there is a time element which enters into the picture, and the human factor must also be considered. Perhaps the better the man is the more determined he will be to get out if he does not have any reasonable assurance that he can make a career in the armed forces of Canada. We all know what happened after the last war, during which the Canadian corps had a record second to none; we were all intensely proud to belong to that corps, and the same was true of the air force and the navy; yet after the war very little attempt, was made to maintain efficiency.
-Now here we are again with very efficient forces, none better in the world. Let us adopt a policy that will enable us to maintain efficiency even while we have to cut down the size of the services. I do not think we can afford to delay. The same thing is true with regard to equipment and supplies. Let us remain in a position to be able to manufacture, as much as possible, whatever equipment is needed for our forces. We did very well in that regard during the war; let us make sure we can continue to carry on in the same way. If we do not take these steps and trouble does come again, the price of our failure and neglect will be paid with the lives of our sons. They are the men who will have to pay the shot if this house does not adopt a proper policy at this time. Mind you, Mr. Speaker, in advocating efficiency I am not advocating waste. We intend to check very carefully for any waste that may be found in the appropriations, but we believe that efficiency must be the main consideration, certainly during the period which lies immediately ahead, while everything is up in the air and no one can tell what the world situation will be.
Our third broad principle is that the defence forces must be given the help of our scientists. Every facility must be afforded to the defence

forces to enable them to keep up to date and to get the most modern improvements, not only in the way of equipment but also in the way of training. During last winter or perhaps early in the spring arctic and sub-arctic exercises were carried out in western Canada by the Canadian army. I believe one exercise was conducted in northern Saskatchewan and one in British Columbia. In the latter province it took place between the main lines of the Canadian Pacific and the Canadian National but still it was a sub-arctic exercise. I believe those should be extended; that the forces should be able to carry on further exercises of that type. They should be able to carry on exercises in the Northwest Territories up toward the arctic, up above where these pitchblende deposits are located, and in the Mackenzie river district. They certainly will never be able to do that if the attitude of the house and of the Canadian people is to be the same as it was after the last war. The carrying out of exercises such as I suggest would help open up that northern country. I believe that in due course several hundreds of thousands of people can be settled in northern Canada, and that there can be a great development in that area. This has happened in Siberia, where the Russians have had outstanding success; and there is no reason why in our country Canadians cannot do the same; if the army and the air force working together could carry out exercises of that type it would be a great help in opening up that northern country. There are many other things that could be done if we had efficient forces properly supported by the House of Commons and by the people of Canada.
The fourth broad principle is that there should be the closest coordination in training and in types of equipment among the different nations of the empire, and also with the United States. This must always be borne in mind. A good example of the success of this type of venture is to be found in the British commonwealth air training plan. We cannot stand alone; we must work with other people, and I think the natural thing for us to do is to coordinate our efforts with those of other British peoples and of the people of the United States.
These are the four broad principles we suggest. We believe in them; we are convinced that they are at least worthy of the most careful consideration of the house and the people of Canada. In connection with their consideration, and for the benefit of the defence forces of Canada, we believe it would be helpful if there were set up a standing committee of this house on defence matters.

War and Demobilization
In the United States house of representatives there is a committee on naval affairs and one on military affairs; I believe that they have similar committees in the senate. We see no reason why we could not have committees of that type in Canada; in such circumstances we would be in a position to call chiefs of staff before such committees, and to find out their reasons for doing certain things and for wishing to have certain plans adopted. In this way, too, we would get the members of the House of Commons and the Canadian people more solidly behind the defence forces. In these modern times the defence of a country involves every man, woman and child. It is no longer a matter of a few trained men; everybody is vitally interested. I am sure great help would come from civilian members who happened to serve on committees of that kind. We ask for support of this suggestion from the various parties in the house.
That is all I have to propose to-day. I repeat the hope that everybody will support us in our submissions. We think the defence of Canada, the constitution, the training anc the work to be done by her fighting forces should be above politics, and something to which we should all agree.
May I repeat the request I made when opening, that the Minister of National Defence try to give us an over-all picture when he makes his statement, which probably will not now be made until the first of next week.


Major James William Coldwell: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley) has placed before us a most comprehensive outline of the proposed expenditures for the coming year for war purposes and demobilization. It was a lengthy and detailed statement which, of course, will be discussed more thoroughly when the house goes into committee.
May I take this opportunity to congratulate the hon. member who has just spoken. I believe he placed his views before the house in a clear manner, and in a non-partisan spirit which should be appreciated by all of us. In his observations he raised some questions and made some suggestions which are worthy of more than passing consideration.
It seems to me that when we are discussing these estimates on this occasion we should consider them in a manner very much along the lines suggested by the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green), namely, in the light of the policies we are likely to follow in the next few years. I agree with him that those policies cannot immediately take shape in a concrete form. But at least when we are discussing the problems arising out of defence
and demobilization I suggest we should keep in mind the kind of external policy Canada will have to follow in the next few years.
It was that phase of the problem I had intended to discuss this afternoon, because obviously one has had no time to consider the very much detailed and comprehensive financial report which has been placed before the house by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley). I should like to say, as the hon. member for Vancouver South implied, that the situation to-day psychologically is vastly different from the situation which we all faced at the end of the first world war. At the end of that war I think many were filled with the idea that perhaps we had seen the last of all the great wars, that we were about to organize some form of collective security which would ensure universal peace for a long time. There was a very high idealism-a Christian pacifism, if you will-which permeated the minds of most men and women of good will in every part of the world and in every party. But in the last ten years there has been disillusionment.


Thomas Reid: Not all countries were thinking of peace.


Major James William Coldwell: I believe there has been disillusionment in the last ten years, and I am speaking of what might be called Christian countries, and men and women of good will.


Thomas Reid: Germany was not.


Major James William Coldwell: I am not including Germany, because no one could include that country as a country having Christian ideals from the rise of Hitler in 1933 to the present. But I believe it is true to say there was that feeling throughout the democratic world. I regret very much to say that to-day to a large degree that feeling is absent; and to a considerable degree I believe that absence can be traced to a feeling of uncertainty with respect to the future. Even those of us who had the privilege of attending the great conference at San Francisco realized while we were there that there were great dangers in the international situation. There were tremendous difficulties to iron out, and we realized that we had to consider the future defence of our various countries and of peace itself very realistically indeed.
Whether we have witnessed, as some of us did, the flying bombs going over London a year ago, or whether we have only read about them and seen pictures in the moving-picture theatres, and whether we have only read of the atomic bomb, I believe we have learned another lesson and know perfectly well to-day
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that any form of isolation must be entirely removed from our minds. Isolation is not a policy any more-if it ever was. We are all vulnerable to attack from without, in the event of another war. We have to hope and trust and pray that the nations of the world, realizing the danger that besets them, will not again turn to the dreadful arbitrament of war, if I may put it in that way. We have to face the future realistically and do all that must be done for the defence of our own country and our own civilization.
When we have approved the united nations charter we may be in a better position to see what Canada should really do, but until that is done we must consider the defence problems of this country from the point of view of this country and of the allied nations with which this country has cooperated throughout the entire war. I was hoping that by this time the nations of the world would have adopted the united nations charter and that perhaps some of its provisions might be operative now, particularly in so far as the security system was concerned. Under the security council there will be established a military staff representing the general staffs of the five principal powers. That military staff will be obligated to enter into agreements with the various nations that adhere to the charter. Hence we should get some idea of the part that Canada should play in the world security situation. We do not know that at the present time, and consequently we have to gear our policy to what this house, this gov-ernnment and this country believe to be in their interests at the present time. I do not know when the military staff of the united nations will be established, and I do not know when Canada will be called upon to enter into some agreement for the general security of the world.
This is what I really had in mind when I rose to speak this afternoon. In all probability this was the last of what we might call the traditional wars, wars in which great armies moved and men fought in close combat. The rocket bomb and the application of atomic energy to bombs have provided a new phase of warfare and one of which we must take cognizance at the present time.
The hon. member for Vancouver South spoke a few moments ago of the necessity of maintaining our scientific and industrial strength. It is altogether probable that scientific research and industrial strength may be of greater import in the future than our armies. In looking over these estimates I was surprised and sorry to see that there has been no increase in the appropriation for the national research council. Indeed there is a slight de-

crease in the total amounts in the war appropriation bill and the civil estimates. I think that is wrong. I think any one who knows anything about Canada's part in the development of radar and the development of at least the raw material for the atomic bomb realizes that the young scientists of this country played a very important role in the course of the war. We should see to it that we do not lose these young scientists because, while they may not be our first line of defence, they will be at least our second line of defence in the event of another war. I find that the estimates, civil and war, for the national research council have been decreased from some $5,000,000 to just over $4,500,000, that is taking the two estimates together.
Under the united nations charter raw material and scientific research may be regarded as one of our principal contributions to the world organization. As those who have read the charter will remember, the military general staff will negotiate agreements, not only with regard to the military aid, naval, army and air, which a nation will give, but will decide what that nation should do, in agreement of course with the nation itself, to assist in the enforcement of international decisions or the maintenance of security. We should look very carefully into this phase of the matter in considering the estimates now before us.
As the hon. member for Vancouver South has indicated, when we are considering these estimates we should make a careful study and report of the post-war military organization that this country requires and can best maintain. In other words, I think the country should know from the Minister of National Defence, indeed from all the ministers if you wish, the policy that Canada is to pursue in organization, the allotment of personnel among the three forces and, as I have said already, in the realm of scientific research, industrial training, war-time mobilization and so on.
Let us bear in mind that at the end of the last war there was a disposition on the part of military leaders to think of future wars in the terms of the war that had just ended. That was a very natural disposition, and I do not think there is any profession or trade represented in this house that might not be guilty of the same kind of thinking. We think rather in terms of what we have been doing than in terms of changes in the manner of doing what we should do. I am not singling out the military profession in this particular. In my opinion in the period which will follow this war there may be a danger that methods which are becoming or

War and Demobilization
have become obsolete since August 6 may be the methods which the military leaders of this and other countries may wish to follow.
We remember how France emerged from the last war with probably the most powerful army in the world and then continued to train that army largely-not wholly of course -on the assumption that- the war which might come again would be like the war in which France had been victorious with her allies in the period 1914-18. The result was that the more progressive military leaders like de Gaulle, who wished to change the tactics of the French army, were not paid any attention. We know what the result was in 1940, when the French army crumbled before an army which had been organized on a new basis with new and different equipment. Consequently I think the house should bear in mind that there is a disposition on the part of any profession to keep its policies in line with what it has known in the past, and we should exercise care lest we allow that to happen again in our country. We must beware that we do not merely allow the desires and the prerogatives of those who have served us well in high places in the army, navy and air force to dominate our thinking and our programme, because they may again be thinking, not in terms perhaps of personal advantage, but in military terms that are becoming obsolete.
One other fact I should like to mention at this time is this. In dealing with demobilization we have to think of the men who are to-day overseas. We have, for example, large forces in Holland which are being gradually reduced, and Holland to-day is very largely under military government. Perhaps when the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) goes to Holland he may find that there is considerable criticism by our Dutch allies of the military government we have established in Holland. I have been told by young men who have just come back from Holland that there is a good deal of discontent with our arrangements there. For example, the Dutch people find that, while they have no transportation, our own military transportation is quite adequate not only for our needs but if used to meet the needs of the population, but there are regulations which do not permit our military in Holland to assist in the transportation of supplies or even the refugee people who are found along the highways. That may be a matter of military necessity, but some young men who have recently returned from Holland fail to understand the situation, and have told me that it is causing a good deal of misgiving among the Dutch and is upsetting some of the splendid relations which exist
there. Those of us who were in Belgium and France a year ago-I think it is a year ago to-morrow that we went across to Belgium- will never forget the enthusiasm with which the people of Belgium and France met our car with the Canadian maple leaf painted on it as one of the symbols, and the friendliness with which our boys were greeted everywhere. It would be too bad if we lost that very fine and friendly spirit in the low countries.
The hon. member for Vancouver South suggested that a defence committee of this house be established where matters of defence could be discussed and members would become more thoroughly acquainted with what was necessary and with the policies which were being followed, and could interest the people of the country. I think that is a good idea, but I was going to suggest something a little different. I intended to suggest that we try to establish a non-partisan committee, which would be a mixed committee of civilians and military men, to go continuously into the field of defence. That is not unlike the suggestion which has already been made. Somewhere at least we can find a suitable committee to deal continuously with these matters. That would be helpful. Before the recent war we had too little discussion in this house, and certainly too little discussion before any committees of the house, regarding the necessities with which the country was then faced. That I think was particularly true after Munich. May I remind the house that Munich was hailed by most of the people of this country as a great step toward universal peace. It was at that time that I was jolted into believing that war was coming, but we in this house did not give the attention to the policies behind the naval, military and air force estimates which I think should have been given, nor did we give attention to the external policies which were likely to make military arrangements necessary. I am therefore very glad indeed that the government has seen fit to grant the request which has been made from time to time in this house over the years and to set up a special standing committee to deal with external affairs. In that way the house should be well informed as to what the necessities of the external scene will demand.
I do not think I wish to say very much more this afternoon, but I wanted to bring these points before the house and the minister in the general discussion before we go into details. In the light of the present world situation we cannot neglect them. The united nations charter will be discussed in this house. I do not propose to anticipate that discussion, except to say that I believe there is not a thinking man who reads and understands the
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dispatches which are coming from Europe, and indeed from all over the world, who does not believe deep down in his heart that the international situation has deteriorated since the united nations charter was adopted at San Francisco. I think when we were there we felt that there was reason to hope that the great powers would understand each other a little better and that the longer the conference continued the better that understanding would become. It looked that way. Watching the news to-day, and reading all that comes to us through the press and in articles from well-informed sources, one is forced to the conclusion that the world is in a desperate condition.
So, then, I say to the minister that we shall go into these estimates with a great deal of sympathy; we shall endeavour to find out what they all mean, and we shall bring before him observations which may sometimes appear, perhaps, to show a very critical spirit. But I assure him and the house generally that in doing so we shall have only one end in view, namely, to make our contribution as a nation to the establishment throughout the world of universal law, order and peace.
Mr. SOLON E. LOW (Peace River):	Mr. Speaker, I shall not take very much of the time of the house just now to deal in any detail with the estimates which were placed before us a short time ago; but I thought I should say a few words, particularly in response to the suggestions which were made by the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green). I felt that the hon. member very skilfully placed before this house a number of principles to which every dynamic Canadian could subscribe.
I feel and have always felt that Canada must be strong, not only in a naval, military, and air force way. These strengths are necessary, to be sure, and we have always in this corner of the house advocated that Canada should be prepared. We have never lost sight of that necessity, and if hon. members will look back over records of sessions during the last ten years they will note that we have been consistent in advocating a strong and a prepared Canada.
We need to be strong economically also, because faith in Canada of a dynamic kind cannot be engendered into our people unless we have ensured the well-being of every family in Canada. That is important, and I would suggest to the government that, while they are making their plans and laying their policies for the years to come, economic strength be given the most earnest and careful consideration along with preparedness in a military way.
I have felt for some years that Canada 	.
perhaps has been trying to do too much considering the population that we have had. We need more people in this country. We have a grand country, which is capable of maintaining, I would say, a population of fifty million people, and we cannot be strong and virile until such time as we have increased our population to the extent that it is possible for us to stand forth as one of the first-rate nations of the world in the way of population as well as in strength of natural resources. I do not know whether the government has given any consideration to means by which, during the next few years, the population can be successfully increased. I will not take the time of the house to advocate any particular principle. Perhaps the government have already laid their plans. It may be necessary for us to combine several methods of accomplishing this objective, but surely there is one thing certain, that the population will not increase sufficiently by natural means-through the birthrate-unless and until we remove from our people fear of want. That is the thing which accounts in the main for small families, and I say to you, what is the use of having a strong navy, a strong army and a strong air force to save the country for posterity if there is not going to be any posterity?
We must realize, Mr. Speaker, that methods of war to which we have been accustomed in the past are outmoded; and because those methods are outmoded we must revise our ideas of war. We must revise our ideas of defence, and, I might add, our ideas of security1-world security as well as Canadian security. I have heard to-day things which lead me to believe that we have not changed our ideas one particle since before the atomic bomb became a reality. My judgment is that we are up against something in that regard where we have no human experience to draw upon, and therefore we need a new approach, a complete revision of our ideas on security. I hope that this Parliament in the next few weeks will prove itself capable of meeting the new conditions and of revising its ideas so as to be thoroughly prepared for the exigencies of the future.
W'hile we are making Canada strong, we must at the same time be prepared to contribute of our strength to ensure the preservation of Britain. Britain is in danger. Britain is in a serious condition. If Great Britain is destroyed the British commonwealth of nations cannot endure; therefore we must be prepared to contribute of our strength to ensure that Britain will remain strong and virile, and that the British commonwealth of nations will be maintained. For I say to you, Mr. SEPTEMBER 28, 1945
War and Demobilization
Speaker, with all the gravity at my command, that the one great barrier in this world to-day against world domination by totalitarianism is the British commonwealth of nations. We must not allow ourselves to be lulled into a sense of false security and into the type of psychology that seemed to prevail among great numbers of the people of the country from 1930 to 1939. We were ostriches, in the main; *we hid our heads in the sand so that we would not see what was going on around us.
Manj- brave words have been spoken since we have learned world facts by experience, and tragic experience at that. Restless and warlike nations will hesitate to attack a strong, virile and well-prepared Canada. Let us therefore keep her in ever-growing strength.
One other thing we should not overlook as we face these, estimates, and study and discuss them in the days to come. An important source of strength, it seems to me, in any people, is to keep those people properly informed. A nation that is ignorant of the facts and the truth of the world situation, a nation that is victimized by the worst and most subtle propaganda imaginable, can never have that source of strength to draw upon which was mentioned so often in the old days: "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free."
Along with all these other suggestions that have been given, the government ought to take note: of the need for watching, the sources of dissemination of information in this country, and see to it that the information that is fed to the people is the truth and not subversive propaganda. A strong people can stand the truth and they wilt react well to it, but if they do not. have the truth, the lack of it immediately becomes a source of disintegrating strength. Therefore I say it is necessary for us to keep in mind the importance of getting to our people information so that they can prepare themselves individually and so that they will not be victims of deteriorating propaganda. I say that whatever money is needed to accomplish the worthy objective of making Canada strong in every way, we in this house ought to be prepared to furnish, and without question. The group in this section of the house is prepared to go into the study of these estimates sympathetically and carefully, and to assist the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsltey) to accomplish for Canada the position which I have envisioned1 in my own mind, and which I am sure that every worth-while Canadian has envisioned in his mind.
Listening to the hon. member for Vancouver South, I was happy to hear the suggestions he made. I am sure that the group in this section of the house are prepared to accept
those principles as a working basis for the examination of these particular estimates, and we shall be prepared to extend to the minister every cooperation and help in accomplishing all worth-while objectives.


John George Diefenbaker: I rise only for the purpose of placing before the government certain questions with regard to the very important matter that must be determined, namely, is this country still at war? When will the proclamation be made that will terminate war in so far as the powers of the War Measures Act are concerned? Having regard to the proposals that have been brought before the house to-day, it seems apparent that the government of this nation intends to continue the fiction that the war is still proceeding, and will not terminate before March 31, 1946, at least.
But before asking these questions, may I as one who had the very humble position of an observer for the Progressive Conservative party at San Francisco say, after listening to-day to the speech of the leader of the C.C.F. party (Mr. Coldwell) and the speech of the leader of the Social Credit party (Mr. Low)-which party throughout the years has represented no changed policy but has always realized the need of maintaining the British commonwealth of nations as the great instrument for peace and welfare in the world- that their speeches indicate that growing out of San Francisco has come a new feeling among the members of the house in their attitude and relationship to discussions on foreign affairs. Let me say that no greater contribution was made to a united front on the part of the Canadian people than when the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) chose to send to San Francisco a non-political delegation representing various parties in the house. Only one error was made. That error was that there was no representative of the Social Credit party at San Francisco, a party which has long espoused such high principles in so far as the empire is concerned.
I came back from San Francisco believing implicitly that the fear of war, both actual and economic, had more or less passed into the realm of history. I heard those great men there; I felt their attitude. I know what the attitude of the Canadian delegation was. Let me say that that delegation did honour to Canada in the contribution they made at San Francisco. I thought I knew the attitude of those other men who represented the different countries of the world. But, sir, when the atomic bomb fell on Japan on August 8 there was an end to an era of man's thinking on international affairs, and I believe an end to man's thinking on life as it had been; for
War and Demobilization

now all realize more than ever as the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar said this afternoon, isolationism no longer can be the cult or the belief of any political party or of any nation. Therefore I believe that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley) should give serious consideration to an increase in the amount that will be expended by. the national research council during the next year; because the atomic bomb not only has great dimensions of peril, but also has great dimensions in the improvement of living conditions and in the raising of economic standards everywhere in the world.
Coming from Saskatchewan I am very proud of the fact that a number of young scientists from that province have contributed to the work of the national research council and that prominent leadership was given to Canada by Dean MacKenzie of the university of Saskatchewan. These scientists now have the opportunity, with the knowledge that has been secured in the production of the atomic bomb, to improve conditions in Canada and elsewhere. Certainly, if we were able to spend billions of dollars for war, we should not be niggardly and spend only four and half million dollars in peace for the work of the council so that this council will be able to continue their work on the principles of atomic power to the end that our living standards may be materially improved in the days to come.


Mr. BLACKMORE:: Would the hon. member permit a question at this stage? Before he finishes his fine address would he mind defining to the house just what he conceives to be the meaning of "isolationism"?


John George Diefenbaker: It would take a long time to endeavour to define "isolationism." It represents to me, sir, a state of mind, a psychological reaction, a failure to realize what conditions are in the world. Those are the things that develop isolationism; those are the things that permit nations and individuals not to have full appreciation of what is going on in the world. That is why it is so important at this session of parliament that we do not permit ourselves to be lulled into a false sense of security by reason of what took place at the San Francisco conference, and thereby fail to assure that Canada's defence within this empire shall be properly preserved in the future; for if we wait for a year, two years, three years or five years, the impetus and the experience of this war will disappear and dissipate, and we may again return to that isolationism which characterized so many in the days before the war.

I am not going into the details of the resolution, but 1 should like to secure from the Minister of Justice (Mr. St. Laurent) at this time an answer to certain questions. These questions were outlined some days ago by the hon. member for Broadview (Mr. Church), at which time the Minister of Justice answered rather indefinitely that these matters-and I deduce this from his words- and their decisions had grave implications. I think the Canadian people have a right to know these things. They have a right to know whether this government intends to endeavour to carry on in the months ahead under the provisions of the War Measures Act. I am going to read only one or two sections of that act, but those sections indicate that, in fact, the resolution now before the house is in part founded upon the government view that the War Measures Act is still in effect. The resolution provides:
That sums not exceeding $1,365,000,000 be granted to His Majesty towards defraying any expenses or making any advances or loans that may be incurred or granted by or under the authority of the governor in council during the year ending March 31, 1946, for-
(a)	the security, defence, peace, order and welfare of Canada;
(b)	the conduct of naval, military and air operations in or beyond Canada.
Those words "the security, defence, peace, order and welfare of Canada" apparently are abstracted from the War Measures Act. Let me read section 2 of that act, which provides:
The issue of a proclamation by His Majesty, or under the authority of the governor in council shall be conclusive evidence that war, invasion or insurrection, real or apprehended, exists. .	. until by the issue of a further
proclamation it is declared that the war, invasion or insurrection no longer exists.
Section 3 gives the governor in council certain powers. Such things may be done by reason of the existence of real or apprehended war. To-day there is no real or apprehended war, in the opinion of the Canadian Bar Association, with which I think any reasonable person would agree. The section contains these words:
. . . by reason of the existence of real or apprehended war, invasion, or insurrection deem necessary or advisable for the security, defence, peace, order and welfare of Canada. . . .
Those are the identical words of the resolution. After referring in the preceding sections to the powers which may be exercised by the governor in council in consequence of there being any real or threatened war or insurrection, section 6 goes on to say:
The provisions of the three sections last preceding shall only be in force during war, invasion or insurrection, real or apprehended.

War and Demobilization
Does the government suggest that to-day we are in the midst of war? Does the minister suggest that it can continue th operation of the War Measures Act until such time, one year, two years, or three years or more hence, when they may by proclamation declare the war over? This is a matter of grave importance to the people of this country. Are powers being exercised by the government to-day which are beyond the compet nee of the government to carry into effect? The Canadian Bar Association, of which in recent years the Minister of Justice (Mr. St. Laurent) was the distinguished president, has reviewed this matter at length. It was first discussed in August of last year, and in the report of the association this appears:
... it would appear proper to insist on having immediately after the hostilities have ceased, a proclamation of the governor in council, to declare that the state of war has ended.
That is the considered opinion of a body which I am sure the Minister of Justice must concede understands the situation with respect to that act. It takes this view because it believes that no longer should laws be enacted by regulation or order in council but directly by parliament; by the freely chosen representatives of the people in parliament instead of by controllers and others in similar positions. Coming down to 1945, the Canadian Bar Association made this declaration:
Your committee is of opinion that the state of war cannot and should not, even by the authority of a statute, be deemed to continue to exist when the war itself is over. Let us make the distinction here between the war emergency itself which is the fact of a state of war, and an economic emergency which, though a consequence following the war, is not the war emergency itself.
Therefore at this time I ask the Minister of Justice to enlighten this house and the country by answering certain questions which I believe are fair and reasonable. The first, to which I have already referred, is this:	Is
Canada still at war? In that regard, and to the determination of that question, I further ask the minister whether the law officers of the crown have given an opinion on that question. Has it been submitted to them, and what is the nature of the opinion they have given? The next question I wish to ask is this, in the words of the council of the Canadian Bar Association. Is it the intention of the government to continue from month to month to postpone the proclamation of peace in order to continue in effect artificial controls which, while excusable in war where necessary, have no place in a peace-time economy? The next question I ask is this. Are the defence of Canada regulations still in effect? In reading over the expenditures to
be made this year, I find that further expenditures are anticipated in connection with the administration of the defence of Canada regulations between now and the end of March, 1946.
These are matters, sir, which are of vital interest. As far as Great Britain was concerned, after the first war and again in May of this year she endeavoured at the earliest possible moment after the end of war in Europe to put a stop to anything bordering on undemocratic controls and the exercise of legislative power by controllers or by the government operating under order in council. She brought into effect an act extending the life of the emergency powers act; and in the old act of 1920 it was provided that His Majesty might declare that a state of emergency continued to exist:
... of such a nature, and of so extensive a scale, as to be calculated, by interfering with the supply and distribution of food, water, fuel or light, or with the means of locomotion, to deprive the community or any essential portion of the community, of the essentials of life.
They extended certain powers, but they also provided that no such proclamation should be in effect for more than one month, unless it was forthwith communicated to parliament, and that for such purpose parliament should be called into session within five days. They also provided that any regulations passed after the end of hostilities should be laid before parliament and should not continue in force after the expiration of seven days from the time they were so laid, unless a resolution was passed by both houses. I suggest, sir, that if the government is going to endeavour to continue to issue orders in council, it should immediately give assurance to the people of. Canada that no orders will be passed while parliament is in session; that this array of 60,000 orders in council that we have had during the period of the war, and that are even to-day being issued while parliament is in session, should terminate; and that any orders in council passed should be passed only temporarily, and should be operative only temporarily unless accepted by parliament.
I mention in this connection that while parliament is sitting, and when the war is over in Europe and in Asia, the chairman of the wartime prices and trade board to-day in Vancouver told the people of Canada what is to happen in Canada for the next year. This is what he advised as to what is to take place-and when parliament is sitting:
'	1. Canadians can expect controls on textiles
to continue at least until the end of the year.
2.	Strict rationing of sugar is indicated for at least another eighteen months, perhaps longer.
War and Demobilization

In other words, we in parliament find in the newspapers what the minister fails to place before us while parliament is in session. Then, next:
World shortages of food may dictate the "establishment or continuation of rationing and distribution controls well through the transition period".
Here we are in parliament, and this statement is made to the press.
The hon. member for Broadview endeavoured to get an answer to this question: Is the War Measures Act still in effect and are we still at war? And yet, while parliament sits on this 28th day of September, members ascertain from boards what the intention of the government is for the future.
And then, finally:
So long as price controls remain, the board expects to hold the line on the 1941 price levels, upon which ceilings are based.
Those, sir, are the statements made by the distinguished head of the wartime prices and trade board, made before parliament has found out anything about it, and made while parliament was still in session.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Mr. Speaker, the statements about rationing were obviously nothing more or less than statements about world shortages. You would have to ration, if you have world shortages-and that is all those statements amounted to. Then, the statement about holding the line at 1941 price levels has been made before, and made on behalf of the government and by members of the government.


John George Diefenbaker: They have not been made by any member of the government since the end of hostilities. The government made its statements of policy in this house as to what the wartime prices and trade board and other control boards would do while the war was on. And yet to-day, after being in this house for a considerable period of time, we are still expected to get information of this kind outside of parliament from a board responsible only indirectly to parliament. I am sure the Minister of Finance does not agree that there should be any declaration of future policy of this country by any controller or any head of a board while parliament is in session.


James Lorimer Ilsley: No; the chairman of the wartime prices and trade board was simply stating what the board would be doing, within the principles of government policy as already stated. The hon. member may think that rationing of sugar, for example, would have to be stated as a separate policy. But the rationing policy just follows inevitably if there is a bad shortage of sugar. tMr. Diefenbaker.]


John George Diefenbaker: That does not follow inevitably. The board makes decisions under government policy; and that board has no power to pass orders in council in order to continue the policy, unless the War Measures Act is still in effect. That is why I wish to have an answer to that question.


James Lorimer Ilsley: The board cannot pass it, even then.


John George Diefenbaker: And neither can the governor in council, except in the case of an emergency, as defined in the Fort Francis case before the privy council.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Surely the hon. gentleman does not deny that that emergency exists at this moment.


John George Diefenbaker: Bring the matter before parliament.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It is now.


James Lorimer Ilsley: My hon. friend should be fair about it. If he will look at the speech from the throne he will find this paragraph:
You will be asked to approve a measure to extend certain specified emergency powers to meet emergency conditions in the period of reconstruction.


John George Diefenbaker: That is perfectly all right; but I am asking this question now- not when another bill is brought up at a later time. At the present time what is the view of the Canadian government? Are we still at war, within the provisions of the War Measures Act, or are we not? That is the question I am asking.


James Lorimer Ilsley: The answer is yes.


John George Diefenbaker: What is that?


James Lorimer Ilsley: The answer is yes.


John George Diefenbaker: "The answer is
yes?"


James Lorimer Ilsley: Yes.


John George Diefenbaker: That is the legal
opinion that is given, is it?


James Lorimer Ilsley: Yes.


John George Diefenbaker: That is the legal opinion given by law officers of the crown?


James Lorimer Ilsley: Yes.


John George Diefenbaker: So at last we have the opinion-and it took all that time! The hon. member for Broadview endeavoured to get that information the other day, but he could get no answer to the question. So the opinion given by the law officers of the crown is that the War Measures Act is still in effect and binding upon this country?

War and Demobilization


James Lorimer Ilsley: Certainly.


John George Diefenbaker: Well, Mr. Speaker, I am glad that-


Clarence Decatur Howe: Did you have a different
opinion?


John George Diefenbaker: I had the opinion of the Canadian Bar Association, an organization which has spent a good deal of time in studying this matter, and one which is composed of the most distinguished members of the bar of Canada, many of whom no doubt are well known to the Minister of Reconstruction (Mr. Howe) as outstanding counsel. Let me say that their conclusion was the other way.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Where is that stated?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Which member wrote the opinion?


John George Diefenbaker: I had a list of them with me, and I wish I had it here, because I believe some of them are embryo judges, Liberal supporters about to be appointed.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Or probably would-be Tory judges.	.


John George Diefenbaker: The chairman of
the committee was Gustave Monette, K.C., of Montreal.


Douglas Charles Abbott: That is why I asked the question.


John George Diefenbaker: Surely the Minister of National Defence does not suggest that the following members of the bar, namely, Walter
S.	Johnson, K.C., Ariste Brossard, K.C., Kenneth M. Martin, K.C., J. E. Rutledge, K.C., Arthur N. Carter, K.C., R. M. Willes Chitty, K.C., W. P. Fillmore, K.C., J. M. Goldenberg, J. J. Saucier, A. C. DesBrisay, K.C., would allow the signing of a report with respect to their understanding of the law to be influenced because a certain man happened to be chairman? That is a strange suggestion to come from the Minister of National Defence, who is a distinguished lawyer-the suggestion that these lawyers would give an opinion which was anything other than the best legal opinion they could give.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Oh, I am convinced of that.


John George Diefenbaker: You are?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I just asked who had written the opinion.


John George Diefenbaker: As the minister possibly does not know, if he has not read the report-and it was made in August-the opinion was given by all of them.


James Lorimer Ilsley: It is not a legal opinion; it was advice to the government in respect of policy.


John George Diefenbaker: It was advice on a matter of law.


James Lorimer Ilsley: I do not think so-at least
not what the hon. member read.


John George Diefenbaker: Well, I have the
opinion here, in which the authorities are cited. However, I shall not go into that, because apparently the Minister of Finance has not read it.


James Lorimer Ilsley: I was just going by what I
heard the hon. member say, when he pointed out that in the opinion of the gentlemen he has named the government should immediately after the cessation of hostilities issue a proclamation. It is advice to the government on a matter of policy.


John George Diefenbaker: It indicates that a state of war did not continue beyond the end of hostilities. I conclude by asking the Minister of Justice to let the house and the country know whether or not the war appropriations that are to continue between now and May, 1946, and those appropriations that have nothing to do with the war are merely incidental to and the result of the war, are properly within the provisions of the War Measures Act.


Mr. HANSELL:: I notice it is nearly five
minutes to six o'clock and I would move the adjournment of the debate. Do I understand that the procedure is to go into committee?


James Lorimer Ilsley: If convenient to hon. gentlemen I think it would be better if we did go into committee. We would then move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. Then hon. members would have great freedom of discussion in committee.


Ernest George Hansell: Will the minister give us assurance now that we shall have an opportunity of discussion just as broad as has been carried on to-day? If so, I would forgo moving the adjournment of the debate.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Oh, yes, just as broad.


John Bracken: I had intended saying
something on this measure. I do not see what delay or inconvenience will be caused if we do not go into committee until there has been some further discussion.


James Lorimer Ilsley: That is all right.


Ernest George Hansell: If that is the case then I move the adjournment of the debate.
Motion agreed to and debate adjourned.
On motion of Mr. Mackenzie the house adjourned at 5.55 p.m.

Canada Prize Act

Monday, October 1, 1945.