1945-12-15

ARMY EXERCISES


[Stage Direction]
musk-ox"
On the orders of the day:
Mr. M. J. COLD WELL (Rosetown-Biggar):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence, of which I have given him notice. In view of certain newspaper comments regarding the military aspects of the proposed Canadian army expedition to the Canadian Arctic known, I understand, as "Exercise Musk-ox", will the minister be good enough to make some explanation to the house this morning.


Hon. DOUGLAS ABBOTT (Minister of National Defence):: Yes. I am glad to do that because there has been some misunderstanding as to the nature and extent of these exercises. This is the fourth and last of the exercises. The first, known as Eskimo, took place in the winter of 1943-44 and it followed a request we received from the British government to train the Lovatt scouts for projected winter operations in Norway. At that time it was of course very secret but plans were being made for a broad scale invasion of Norway and we in Canada were asked to provide facilities for training the Lovatt scouts in this country for winter warfare and also to develop types of motor vehicles for operation under winter conditions. A battalion of the Lovatt scouts came and trained in northern Saskatchewan and in British Columbia.


Mr. MACKENZIE:: Jasper.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Jasper, the Minister of Veterans Affairs reminds me. The first exercise, Eskimo, took place in the winter of 1943-44; the second, known as Polar Bear, took place in the same year; the third, known as Lemming, operated north through Churchill in the winter of 1944*45; and this is the final exercise to be known as Musk-ox. I do not know whether, if we kept them on long enough, we would run out of names of arctic animals. In any event, this one has been known as Musk-ox.


Thomas Miller Bell: You could use Canada Goose.


Douglas Charles Abbott: The reason for these names is that at the time the exercises were initiated they were secret and reference had to be made to them by code. This particular expedition will cover very much greater territory than the preceding ones, which were only two or three hundred miles in each case. This will cover a total arc of 3,200 miles, starting from Churchill on February 14 and proceeding via Baker lake, Cambridge bay, over the top and down by Norman Wells, Nelson, and ending at Edmonton on May 5, all being well.
The house will appreciate that this will afford an opportunity of testing out these vehicles under extreme winter conditions and through the spring break-up, and that is one of the reasons for continuing it during that period of time. It will be carried out in conjunction with the Royal Canadian Air Force. The force will be supplied with gasoline, food and the like by the air force, and those supplies will be dropped from planes, not landed on air strips, because there are no air fields in the greater part of the area through which the force will pass. The force is not a large one. The moving party will consist of only forty-five all ranks, carried in twelve of these snowmobiles. The snowmobiles have been developed in Canada from an American type of vehicle. They are a full-track vehicle, and have proved very successful in previous operations. In this expedition they will be enclosed, and it is expected that they will provide interesting experimental data on how this type of vehicle will operate under severe weather conditions and in the course of the spring break-up.
There is nothing secret about this expedition; it is a very small one. For that reason, among others, no invitations have been issued to military representatives of other countries to go along on the expedition. I do not know whether they would want to take a long trip of the kind under those weather conditions. In any event they will be invited to go up

Trade and Employment
to Churchill to examine the vehicles and see the start of the expedition if they want to do so, and the finish at Edmonton on May 5. I do want to emphasize the fact that there is nothing secret about the expedition. The benefits derived from it may well be of greater civilian value than military value, although it is hoped that they will be both. Technical and meteorological experts are going along. Briefly that is a picture of this exercise Musk-ox.
Poultry Products Shipped to the United States 1944	1945
Dressed poultry 24,233,418	 $7,754,693
Live poultry 3,000,000 ..	750,000
Dressed poultry 11,473,879 1b.		 $3,671,641
Live poultry 2,000,000
lb	
Hatching eggs, 1,200,000 doz	
500.000
720.000
To December 1, 1945.
$8,504,693	$4,891,641



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. ALISTAIR STEWART (Winnipeg North):: May I direct a question to the Minister of Labour, of which I have already given him notice? Has the officer of the Department of Labour reported yet on his investigation into the matter of the pension rights of Canadian Pacific employees who were involved in the general strike at Winnipeg in 1919? If not, when does the minister expect to receive the report?


Hon. HUMPHREY MITCHELL (Minister of Labour) :: Mr. Speaker, the report of the officers of the department has just been received and at this moment is receiving the necessary study by the industrial relations branch of the department.



POULTRY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. JOHN BRACKEN (Leader of the Opposition):: Two days ago I directed a
question to the Prime Minister or the Minister of Veterans Affairs. It had to do. with the proposed international trade conference next summer. The question was whether, an invitation had been received from the United States, and if so would the government give favourable consideration to the sending of a non-partisan delegation. May we have an answer to that question?
Hon. IAN A. MACKENZIE (Minister of Veterans Affairs):	May I be permitted to
have an answer made at three o'clock this afternoon?


John Bracken: Yes.



VETERANS AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) :: Yesterday on the orders of the day the hon. member for Wellington North (Mr. Menary) asked a question with regard to the shipment of poultry products to the United States and the United Kingdom. The answer is as follows:
Poultry Products Shipped to British Ministry of Food
1944	1945
Dried egg powder
27,575,763 lb	$33,970,555
Dressed poultry 1,973,- -
089 lb	 774,007
Dried egg powder to Dee. 1/45 14,846,837
lb	 $16,916,842
*Shell eggs "fresh" 27,635,670 doz	 10,689,787
Shell eggs storage 12,953,790 doz	 6,037,109
$34,744,562	$33,643,738
Hon. IAN A. MACKENZIE (Minister of Veterans Affairs) moved the second reading of and concurrence in amendments made by the senate to bill No. 240, to provide rehabilitation allowances for veterans.
He said: If hon. gentlemen will look at page 490 of the Votes and Proceedings they will find the amendments. They are purely matters of clarification, and I think an improvement on the phraseology adopted by this house.
Motion agreed to; amendments read the second time and concurred in.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS

[Stage Direction]
398. Departmental administration, $835,856.
Mr. BROOKS:: I had intended making extended remarks on the estimates of Veter-
47696- 224i
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ans Affairs, but realizing the lateness of the session I am going to content myself with asking a number of questions.
May I say at the outset that I consider it unfortunate that the estimates of veterans affairs, which to my mind are the most important that the house has to consider, are brought down in the dying hours of the session. Not only in this session but in previous sessions the estimates of veterans affairs have been left to the last.. It is not fair to those who are interested in the welfare of veterans, and that includes all hon. members of the house and- the great majority of the people of the country. In future I hope that the minister will see that his estimates are brought down earlier. At the beginning of the sessions we spend a lot of our time discussing what to me are more or less unimportant matters, and at the end of the sessions these very important matters are given* scant attention.
My first question is with reference to the old veterans, the members of the veterans guard, men who served in the two wars. We all know these men are getting well along in years. They average between fifty-five and sixty years of age. Anyone who saw the parade on Armistice day and the men of the last war who were parading realizes that today these men are too old to be thrown out into the labour markets of this country to compete with younger men.
It is true that we have what is known as the dual service pension plan, but it allows single men only $30 and married men $60 a month. Before these men receive any consideration they must be in more or less necessitous circumstances. I believe that upon demobilization these men should be granted a straight pension with no conditions whatever attached. A veteran should be allowed to seek employment without let or hindrance. As hon. members know, we have what is called the means test, That is, a man is allowed $125 casual earnings and $25 interest on bonds; if more than that, a deduction is made from his allowance. I think the means test should be done away with and these veterans should be granted a straight pension and permitted to earn as much as it is possible for them to earn My first question to the minister, then, is: what does the department intend to do in reference to these veterans?
I should like the minister to say also what he intends to do in regard to providing veterans' homes for the older men. We know that Canada is more or less a new country so far as wars are concerned, and up to the present it has not been necessary to establish veterans' homes in any part of this country. 
In the United States they have had veterans' homes for years, because they are an older country and have been engaged in more wars. England, of course, has had veterans' homes for a great many years. In Canada we have not felt the necessity of such homes until the present time, when the veterans of the last war are getting on in years. I know also that in this country many benevolent citizens have donated property for veterans' homes, but as yet no definite policy has been established by the government in this connection. My second question to the minister is: what is the intention of the government with reference to establishing veterans homes?
I come now to the third matter with which I wish to deal, and as I stated a few moments ago I am just mentioning the bare facts with regard to these problems. Over a long period of years imperial veterans in this country have been seeking recognition, but there has been an unreasonable prejudice against them. Why that should be I do not know. The case of the imperial veterans has been brought up time and time again at meetings of the Canadian Legion. Resolutions have been- passed at dominion conventions of the legion in favour of the extension of the war veterans' allowance to imperial ex-service men after a reasonable period of residence in Canada. I might quote a resolution which was passed at the legion convention in Winnipeg in 1042:
That we urge upon the dominion government the expediency and necessity of making prompt, adequate provision for ex-service men of the imperial forces by the extension of war veterans allowance under the same conditions as to Canadian veterans, other than on the question of pre-war domicile, providing such imperial ex-service men were resident in Canada on September I, 1930, and have since resided in Canada.
These imperial veterans fought side by side with Canadian troops during the first great war. Many of them have served in world war II. They came to this country; they have been paying taxes here for a great many years; they have brought up their families here; they have shared all the burdens of Canadian citizens, and in the war that is just over their sons served in our armed forces.
I am asking the minister that the obnoxious domicile clause, which at present governs these matters so far as imperial veterans are concerned, be removed from the War Veterans Allowance Act, and that these imperial veterans be treated just as our own veterans are treated. That is the third matter I wish to bring to the attention of the minister. I could dwell on it for a considerable length of time, but I do not think that is necessary this morning.

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To-day we are told that the cost of living has gone up about twenty per cent. That may be so on the average, Mr. Chairman, but I believe anyone who has to go out and buy food and clothing and pay rent in this country will agree that the cost of the necessities of life has increased more than twenty per cent.
I want to point out to the minister that pensions have not kept pace with the increase in the cost of living. Throughout these long years of war the men receiving pensions have borne the extra expense of living pretty well in silence. They have received no increase, no cost of living bonus. I would ask the minister what is his intention in regard to increasing pensions so that they may measure up to the present cost of living.
Another class of pensioners who I consider are not receiving their just due are the widows of those who lost their lives overseas. Our service men are coming back by the thousands to be greeted by their loved ones. We are all happy to see them come back, but the dependents of other thousands of men are not welcoming them back; they lost their lives overseas and now lie in silent graves far away. Just what is our department doing for these dependents? Well, take the case of the widows of all ranks up to and including lieutenant. A widow receives $60 a month, and if she has one child she gets an additional $15, making a total of $75. In other words the widow of the man who gave his life overseas is asked to maintain a home, educate her child and bring it up as it should be brought up on $75 a month. I would point out to the minister that this is entirely inadequate, and would ask him to tell this committee just what his intention is concerning this very important matter.
I had intended to speak at some length on the insurance principle, but I shall content myself with asking the minister if it would not be possible again to place the insurance principle in the act to cover all cases. We have it now as far as overseas men are concerned, and it also meets certain cases of those who served in Canada, but there are other cases it does not meet. I think in fairness to all men who joined the army the insurance principle again should be incorporated in the Pension Act. I might call the minister's attention to a resolution which was passed at the legion convention reading as follows:
Resolved that this convention endorse the insurance principle for pension entitlement in the case of all men and women voluntarily entering the armed forces of Canada, irrespective of whether or not they may serve in a theatre of actual war, and urge upon the government of
Canada to restore this equitable principle to the Pension Act in the case of those who voluntarily enlist.
Perhaps the minister will make some pronouncement on this matter. I presume all these questions will be discussed by the veterans committee next session, but we do not want to wait that long before learning the intentions of the government. We are receiving letters continually asking just what is to be done.
The pre-enlistment condition always has been a bone of contention in the awarding of pensions in this country. We have had trouble from that source for the past twenty-five or thirty years, and I think it is time something was done so that these men, and there are many hundreds of them, might receive the measure of justice to which they are entitled. From my own experience in the army during this war I know there should be no question of a man's preenlistment condition. When he comes in for basic training he is examined by three or four doctors. He is not there two weeks before he is given another medical examination. When he leaves basic training for advanced training he has another medical examination. When he leaves advanced training for further training he also has a medical examination. Medical examinations of these men are going on all the time. If our medical profession has not discovered some inherent weakness in this man, with all these medical examinations, then the man must be considered to be what they say he is, namely in A-l condition. And when he is out of the army, if he applies for pension for some disability it should be accepted as a matter of fact that he was in good physical condition when he joined the army and his present disability is due to his service.
Then, there is the matter of hospitalization. I shall not deal with this in detail, because I know there are other hon. members better qualified than I am to do so. However there is one phase of the matter I should like to discuss for a few moments, and that has to do with mental cases. The minister has told us that they are looking after mental cases from the last war and this one. Well, they have been looking after these cases, but they have not been receiving the attention they should receive. In some of the provinces the men are being cared for in provincial institutions, a condition which applies in my own province. I contend that separate mental institutions should be set apart for veterans of the last war and this one.
I know of a young flier stationed at Goose Bay, a boy eighteen years of age, who drank one night some lemon extract, became tern-
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porarily insane and tried to commit suicide. That boy was placed in a mental institution in Saint John, with other patients who were chronically insane. Instead of making improvement he gradually became worse. What was true in that case has been true in many others. It is not fair or right that those men who served overseas and who became temporarily demented because of the terrible hardships through which they lived should be placed among chronically insane people in institutions throughout the country. This is a matter to which I suggest the minister should give his most careful attention.
It is unfortunate that more time has not been left for the discussion of these matters, but I hope that even under these circumstances the minister will give us a clear picture of veterans affairs, and that he will state what he intends to do, not only with regard to the points I have raised, but with regard to other matters affecting veterans throughout the country.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Mr. Chairman, let me say at once that I find no fault whatsoever with the observations of the hon. member for Royal. I believe his suggestions have been helpful and constructive. There was, however, a touch of criticism in his first observations to the effect that the estimates of this department had been deferred until a late hour in the session. Let me remind the hon. member and the committee that no single department of government has received more consideration from the House of Commons and the members thereof, and no other department has received as much attention during this session of parliament as has the Department of Veterans Affairs. Not only that, sir; but we have an able committee on which the hon. member for Royal was a most distinguished member, a committee which considered all aspects of legislation affecting the soldiers, for the past, the present and the future. We have submitted to the unfettered judgment of the house three major measures, the discussion of which occupied several hours, and all of which were passed unanimously by the house. So I do not think his criticism respecting the limited time for the discussion of the estimates of this department is justified. I should have liked to bring them down earlier but, as he knows, there were reasons why that was not possible. So far as I am concerned, certainly I am not going to suggest any curtailment of debate or discussion of the estimates.
May I refer briefly to the several points the hon. member has made, the first of which was a reference to the old veterans. I find
myself very much in sympathy with what he said, but may I say to him that that question will be before the committee next February or March, when parliament meets again, and both the means test under the Veterans Allowance Act and the matters affecting the imperials will be discussed at that time.
I am well aware of the sentiment contained in the arguments adduced and forwarded by veterans organizations in connection with the claims of imperial veterans in Canada. I happen to be one of the few members of the House of Commons who was born in the old land, and naturally to a great extent my sympathies flow in that direction. But as a Canadian I say to the committee, I say to parliament and to its committee on veterans affairs: look after the claims of the 78,000 Canadian soldiers who served only in the United Kingdom. Unless these pensioners are entitled to benefits under the Veterans Allowance Act, then I do not think the claims of imperial veterans should have precedence over those of our own Canadians who should be entitled to benefits.
The hon. member made the suggestion that we have not veterans homes in Canada. Surely he knows better than that.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I did not say there were no homes. I realize there are a few.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I accept the correction.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: But I said they were not sufficient, and that in most cases they have been donated by the citizens of this country.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I agree entirely with the hon. member's observations in that regard. But we are going to have veterans homes in every province. I have been through some of those already completed, and I can say that those grand old soldiers, homeless men, will have the most wonderful homes that can possibly be provided, the best medical attention, and the most humane nursing service. They will have that.
Every single problem referred to by the hon. member will come before that splendid committee of the house which will meet at the next session, because the heart of this parliament has always beat true in regard to the problems of those who have served their country in two wars and who helped to save the freedom of the world. In this matter there have been no political considerations, and I believe there never will be. I am sure that is the judgment of parliament in connection with the problems of our ex-service men of both wars.
The hon. member referred to the rate of pension of $75 a month. Again this is a

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matter that can be considered by the committee. However, the fact is that the cost of living index was higher when the present rate of pension was established in Canada than it is even at the present time. This amount was the judgment of the parliament of that day; these are the rates fixed.
The hon. member referred to the insurance principle. This matter was thoroughly and ably debated in the pension committee of 1941. No country in the world to-day has accepted the insurance principle-not one. Canada, combining her present pensions system of administration with the additional elements set out in section 11 (3) of the act, has gone farther than any other country in the recognition of disabilities. If parliament, however, wishes to go farther, that will be a matter for its consideration at the session next year, and a matter to which the committee which will sit at that time can give careful consideration.
The hon. member referred to preenlistment disability, the most difficult question in the whole administration of veterans affairs. I have gone carefully into the reasons both for and against, and I find that no country in the world has given recognition to what might be described as the automatic operation of the non-recognition of preenlistment disability. It is a difficult question; it is a highly technical question; it is a medical question. What we shall recommend in this house will be a matter for this committee to determine in future days.
I want to thank the hon. member for his moderate, reasonable and constructive suggestions. I have no doubt that when the committee meets again it will traverse the entire gamut of his observations and make adequate, reasonable and sympathetic suggestions to this house.


Mr. CROLL:: Mr. Chairman, what the minister has said about the veterans affairs committee is altogether too true. We did go over things with a fine comb. The members were most cooperative and most helpful and a great deal was accomplished. I think the house recognized that when it agreed to pass the bills with so very little discussion. But there was something we did not have time to deal with, a matter which may become difficult before we come back again.
When we reached the peace emergency with the sudden ending of the war there was considerable dislocation. There are some warnings showing up, now that a large number of veterans are out of work, particularly in Vancouver, Montreal and Windsor, and the signs are not as healthy as they would appear. Although the situation may not be grave at the
moment, that is due I think to the wisdom of parliaments in the past, and this parliament particularly, because a cushion has been built up for the men.
A private in the Canadian army had a certain amount of money held back as deferred pay. In almost all instances that was invested in victory bonds, and most of these men had S400 to $500 when the war finished. In addition there were the gratuities which were augmented since the last war, the rehabilitation grants which permit the soldiers to purchase furniture and household utensils; there is the Veterans' Land Act, the small holdings, wartime housing, out of work benefits, unemployment insurance, technical and educational facilities. When all these matters are considered it will be realized that this parliament has taken more than ordinary precautions. In addition to that, what brought joy to most of us was the statement of the department that if changes had to be made, they were willing to make them, and on short notice.
As I say, there are some warning signals. The boat is being rocked. First, I should like to refer to an article which appeared in the Ottawa Journal of November 28. This is under a Vancouver date line and refers to Major General B. M. Hoffmeister, who was to have led the Canadian troops in the Pacific. He is reported to have said:
Men who dug slit trenches for their lives in Europe do not want to dig ditches for their livelihood in Vancouver.
And again:
If men saw fit to place their lives in my hands overseas, the least I can do is try to find an answer to their problems here.
There are those fortunate enough to have stayed home and enjoyed good jobs and better living conditions. They are the ones who should be digging ditches.
Then I should like to refer to an article which appeared in the Globe and Mail of December 6, also under a Vancouver date line. It reads:
Lewis McDonald, representing the Vancouver command of the Canadian legion, criticized trades unions for not giving full cooperation in veterans rehabilitation. He said veterans have been refused jobs because "the unions' own men were on the list ahead of them . . . and they (veterans) have no seniority."
The Ottawa Citizen of November 28 refers to a statement by Mr. J. C. G. Herwig, national legion secretary', who said:
The legion feels that it is high time the dominion and provincial governments got together with a view- to giving active, constructive leadership and direction to management and labour alike in order to avoid a repetition of the shocking conditions with which Canada's fighting men were faced at the conclusion of the first great war.
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May I say that General Hoffmeister is a splendid gentleman and what I have to say is not applicable to 'him ait all, nor is it applicable to the men of the legion. Perhaps they do not fully realize what those words may mean. I should like to quote from the Windsor Star of December 12, which contained the following under a Vancouver date line:
Members of local 249, international packinghouse workers (C.I.L.) have gone on record m favour of reducing their hours from forty-five to forty hours per week in order to give employment to veterans, William Symington, business agent of the union said yesterday.
The local is composed of 300 employees of Burns and company in Vancouver. The reduction in hours would provide jobs for thirty-three veterans, he said.
"This would mean a direct loss in wages for the members who voted in favour of reduction of hours," said Mr. Symington, "but they did it because there has been so much talk of veterans not getting a square deal from unionists."
I do not belong to the school that thinks that everything is going to be all right tomorrow. I am pointing out these things as a tip-off. I think it is some indication of how the wind is blowing. If there are people in this country who are dreaming of using the veteran in order to weaken and destroy the labour union, they are building castles in the air and I do not think they are pretty ones at that. I am not suggesting for one moment that any of these people are doing that, but I do think that anyone who attempts to dividfe the veteran and the worker is an enemy of the state.
I am glad both the Minister of Labour and the Minister of Veterans Affairs are in the chamber because it will not be necessary for hon. members to have to listen to me again when the labour estimates are up for consideration. In this country the seniority of the worker has become a property right in his job. My suggestion is that the government sit down around the table with organized labour and the legion to try to draw up a clause acceptable to everyone which would be a standard clause to be inserted in all collective bargaining agreements. We will have a great number of them in 'this country in the days to come.
The seniority of the veteran who was employed before he went into the forces is naturally recognized. That seniority includes accumulated time, the right to be rehired, pay increases, promotions, transfers from one department to another and guarantee against the disability of lay-offs. But there is one field that has not been covered, the veteran who was not employed before he joined the army because he was too young or the veteran who came back to find that his job no longer

existed. In this round table discussion that type of veteran should be provided with a synthetic seniority. I would suggest that within six months or a year after he has been discharged, or within six months after he has completed his training, he Should be given seniority on the same basis as though he had been employed in that shop.
Then there is the disabled veteran who by reason of his disability is unable to do the same job he had before. That veteran ought to have some right to any job in the plant that he can fill. I urge upon the two ministers that if that can be done it is most desirable, and if we do not do it we shall find that a lot of demagogues in this country will be having a holiday at the expense of the veterans and the workers. I have reason to believe that the legion and the unions are anxious to come to some agreement and to meet the problem, but I think that it has to be met at a very much higher level, and unless we reach some agreement in that respect we will find that the problem will break upon us and engulf us before we have fully appreciated it. It requires bold action; it requires something to be done before this house is in session again, and that is why I bring it up now.
I want to make it very clear again, lest I be misunderstood, that these agreements should be reached by consultation round the table. I think that they are all men of good will; I think that they are all anxious to solve the problem; and I ask the two ministers, who have done some preliminary work on the problem, as the house should know and I think does know, to continue with that work in the interval so that this situation may be well in hand before we come back here next session.


Humphrey Mitchell: I agree with my hon.
friend in every detail of what he said on the question of seniority rights. We must remember that seniority means more to the average industrial worker than wages, and prior to the war-I am not speaking of since the war-more time was spent in negotiating the seniority clause contained in most industrial agreements than any other clause. That is a fact, and you cannot get around it.
In anticipation of what would develop at the conclusion of the war a committee was set up by the Department of Labour and the Department of Veterans Affairs to study the very matter to which my hon. friend has referred, but I think he will agree with me that it is far better to get agreement than for the government to give direction. I agree with him also that by no official action what-

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ever should the trades unions and the veterans organizations in this country be pitted against each other. I think that wisdom must be exercised in that regard. I say with all the emphasis at my command that anyone in this nation, whether he be a member of the House of Commons or outside, would not be rendering a service to the Canadian people w'ho advocated policies that might bring about disagreement between these two great forces within the four corners of this nation.
Might I say in a broad way with respect to the disabled veterans working in our industrial and commercial structure, a special division of the employment service of Canada has already been set up to deal with that matter. It has been found from our experience with workmen's compensation laws in this country that on the average a person with a disability has a better earning power after the disability than they had before. That is a matter of statistical record. I can say this to my hon. friend and to the committee, that no nation is better prepared than the Dominion of Canada to meet the problems of the post-war period, as we have built our organization on the experience of the past. After all is said and done, the man with a test tube is better than the man with a book, and we have had practical experience with demobilization following the last war. I think it can truthfully be said that building up that experience we have organized a machine which in the main should function with a degree of perfection that possibly cannot be imagined to-day.
I have said these one or two things, Mr. Chairman, just to indicate to the house and the country that the two matters which my hon. friend has raised have been and were being dealt with prior to his making what I consider very helpful suggestions.


David Arnold Croll: May I just say a word arising out of what the minister has said. I should not like the house to get the impression that I advocated compulsion. I never suggested that at all. I suggested that there should be consultation around the table.


Humphrey Mitchell: That is correct.


Mr. BRUCE:: Mr. Chairman, as a member of the committee on veterans affairs I am conscious of the hard and painstaking work done by that committee to make sure that the interests of the veterans to whom we owe so much would be carefully safeguarded in the bill the provisions of which have already been approved by the house.
I wish to join the hon. member for Royal in regretting that the estimates of this important department have been opened so late; in fact, on what we hope will be the last day of the session, which means that we shall not have the advantage of having a free discussion participated in by a large number of the members of this house. I hope that next session the minister may find it possible to bring down his estimates at a much earlier stage.
Knowing that many of the provisions for our returning men who are now students were carefully considered by the committee, therefore I hesitate to refer to any of them here because I know that the members of the committee did the very best they could to provide adequate funds for students attending universities. In spite of that I am receiving many communications asking that the amount be increased because of the high cost of living, which makes it difficult for many students to eke out an existence on the amount that is paid to them.
May I call the minister's attention to the fact that single fare on the railways was provided for a period of thirty days to these men when they were in the armed forces during the war. Surely this concession should be extended to them now, and I ask the minister if he will take the matter up with the railways and try to get them to do it.
Although I approved entirely of the setting up of the Department of Veterans Affairs, I have always been of the opinion that the medical care and treatment of veterans could be better taken care of by the medical services already in existence. During the war we have had three distinct medical services connected with the three branches of the armed forces, as well as the medical services of the health department as well as those required for the civilian population. If this had been done the medical and surgical care of veterans could have been handled in such a way as to have ensured better care and at the same time have saved the taxpayer a great deal of money. I am supported in this opinion by the action of the Canadian Medical Association,'which sent a letter to the Prime Minister on May 29, 1944, from which I should like to quote a few paragraphs. May I say that during the war the Canadian Medical Association supplied five of its ablest physicians to assist on a board known as the Canadian medical procurement and assignment board, which was set up by order in council in July, 1942. In their letter to the Prime Minister they made the following suggestions, which will be found at page 3824 of volume 4 of Hansard, 1944.
10.	A great national plan for health care is being devised, and it may be assumed that when
356(1
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and if it comes into operation a large number of our people, consisting of the veterans who, with their dependents, will constitute twelve to fifteen per cent of our population, might reasonably expect 'to have access to these services.
11.	Again, most respectfully, we would urge that in the interests of sound administration, careful consideration be given to placing all government health services in time of peace within one department.
The next paragraph is perhaps the most important and relevant to the position that I myself take in this matter.
12.	In order to concentrate the expenditure for veterans' care within one department, the Department of Veterans Affairs could arrange to purchase the "medical care,"-using the term broadly-for this group of people from the department of national health.
13.	We believe that if the health services were so organized, there would be a notable conservation of medical and technical personnel and equipment and that there would be provided a finer type of service to this very important group.
It . (b) That all federal health activities be incorporated in the Department of National Health, including the health and care of veterans.	.
With these opinions I am in hearty accord. I will not amplify this at the moment, seeing that my time is limited, but I would call the attention of the committee to an act put on the British statutes on March 1, 1944, known as the Disabled Persons (Employment) Act. The main purposes of the Tomlinson report were incorporated into this act, which makes rehabilitation and resettlement of the disabled after the war part of the nations social services. The state accepts its obligation towards the man or woman suffering any type of disability to recondition him mentally and physically as far as possible and to train him for a new occupation where necessary, to care for his family through his period of training, and to resettle him in suitable employment.
Another important provision requires all employers of twenty or more workers to employ a quota of registered disabled persons, the quota for each employer being a percentage of his total employees as decided after consultation between workers and employers organizations. The employer with less than his quota may not take on a non-registered person without a special ministerial permit, and a registered disabled person may not be discharged from his employment without reasonable cause if the discharge would bring the employer below his quota.
Moreover, certain occupations specially suitable for disabled persons may be earmarked so that vacancies occurring in them may be filled only by registered disabled. I think we might very well emulate the example of 
Great Britain in this regard. It will be interesting also to note that following the 1914-18 war Germany made it obligatory for all its industries to engage a certain quota of persons disabled by the war.
May I now refer to a change that has come about in the treatment of patients as a consequence of certain new developments in this war, namely, the use of sulpha drugs and penicillin where, because of their use, old infections in bones known as osteomyelitis no longer recur, and as a consequence the frequent operations for the removal of necrosed bone at intervals over months and years will no longer be necessary. We can therefore hope that we shall not require active surgical treatment hospitals for a very long period after all our veterans are home. In fact, as soon as all the cases returning from overseas have had the necessary operations performed in neurosurgery, orthopedics and plastic work as well as in nerve repair work they will be dismissed from hospitals and will not, I hope, have to return except of course for emergency work that might arise from time to time. It means, therefore, that we do not require to provide a large permanent building in which to do active treatment surgery.
I believe that three centres have been established in different parts of Canada for the care of these special cases to which I have referred, namely, first, the neurosurgical cases, secondly the orthopedic cases and thirdly those requiring plastic surgery. May I ask the minister where these centres are and whether they are connected' with general hospitals or with hospitals under his own administration. I presume the determining factor in reaching decisions as to the location of these centres would be their accessibility to trained specialist personnel in the large centres.
This brings me to the point of asking the minister whether very soon it may not be well to consider what use he shall make of the large active treatment addition to the Sunnybrook hospital, the corner stone of which was laid in November last, and which will not be completed for another year. I suggest that when it is completed it might not be needed for the purpose for which it is being built. I have no doubt that it can be used for other purposes. If my suggestion has merit then the country might be saved the large amount of money which will be expended in providing numbers of operating rooms, pathological laboratories, X-ray rooms and other facilities which are needed in an active treatment hospital of that size. It might be well for the minister to ask a small committee,

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on which should sit one of the leading civilian surgeons of Toronto, along with some representatives from his own department, to look into the matter, to see whether something might be devised to meet the situation which will arise if what I believe turns out to be true, namely, that before this building is completed all the cases returning home will have been dealt with, except a few fragmentary ones, for which other accommodation will be accessible.
I do not intend to refer to-day to what I said a year ago, because anybody who wishes to read the record in regard to Christie street hospital can look back to Hansard. It would serve no useful purpose for me to refer to it again. Over one million dollars was spent on improvements and alterations to that hospital. I have not now, nor have I had at any time, any criticism to offer in regard to the splendid work that wras done at Christie street and is being done there now in the medical, surgical and neurological departments.
Perhaps it is too late to make any change now, but if we have another war, and nobody can be sure that it may not come some day, a better way of providing accommodation for our returned men would be to build annexes to civilian hospitals already existing throughout Canada. In the large centres and in some of the smaller centres from coast to coast, where staffs are already available, and where these men will be assured of receiving the very best care and attention. Some hon. members will recall that this was refused Doctor Penfield when he asked that an addition be made to the Montreal Neurological institute, so that his staff of skilled personnel could be made available. When all of these cases are disposed of a few months after the end of the war the additional buildings would be useful as civilian hospitals. The committee will recall that at one time it was proposed that an addition be made to the Winnipeg civilian hospital, where the medical faculty of the Manitoba medical school of skilled specialists would be available. When the war is over and the cases are disposed of, this hospital would have additional accommodation to meet the civilian need, but instead of doing this Deer Lodge hospital was built outside Winnipeg. I am told that Winnipeg General hospital has a waiting list of over two hundred, which condition is duplicated all over Canada. I know that the same situation exists in Toronto. I want to commend the minister for the arrangements he made with the East General hospital to use the new wing, which was nearly completed at the time, for the care of some of these returned men. I believe they have taken cane of some 250 returned men
there and I am sure that he will be satisfied with the services which that hospital has rendered.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Simply excellent.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: I wish to make it quite clean that in my opinion this method of handling our returned cases would be very much better than the method which was followed during this war, and which was perhaps a hangover from the last war. On a former occasion I made a plea for federal help for civilian hospitals throughout Canada, and I should like to repeat that plea to-day. Without that assistance and the assistance of the provincial governments the municipalities will not be able to provide adequate care for our civilian population. The federal government should give that assistance because through taxation they are taking away the sources of revenue of these hospitals.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: May I say at once that I am grateful to the hon. member for Parkdale for his remarks. Naturally he speaks with more high authority in regard to these medical problems than I could ever assume or aspire to reach.
The first observation my hon. friend made was in regard to the transportation of those who are taking educational courses. That matter was dealt with the other day by the Minister of Transport; his statement may be found at page 3210 of Hansard. Cogent reasons were advanced at that time as to why it would not be possible.
The second observation made by my hon. friend was in regard to the submission of the Canadian Medical Association with reference to the placing of the care of veterans under national health or some other organization. May I remind my hon. friend he is very well aware of this-that after the last war an attempt was made to have the services of national defence extended for the after-care of veterans. That policy was abandoned in about six or nine months' time. The Department of Veterans Affairs was created by a committee of this house largely so that all the services, including the medical services pertaining to veterans, would be under one department. I can assure my hon. friend that it would relieve me of much anxiety if these services were placed under another department, but I do know very definitely that the organized exservice men of Canada want the medical aftercare of sendee men to be under the Department of Veterans Affairs. That is the definite recommendation of the legion, the Canadian corps and all the major organizations in Canada.
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Herbert Alexander Bruce: I am well aware of that, but in spite of that fact, as a medical man I still hold the opinion which I have expressed.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I have a great deal of respect for the advice and opinions of my hon. friend. He asked me about the neurological centres. There is one in Montreal, one in Toronto, one in Halifax, one in Winnipeg, one in Edmonton and one in Vancouver. We have also built wings on civic hospitals at Port Arthur, Edmonton-at the university hospital-Regina, Ottawa, Kingston, and now we are doing that in Prince Edward Island.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: Are those in separate hospitals, or in connection with civic hospitals?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Those I mentioned last -are in connection with civic hospitals. My hon. friend offered a suggestion in regard to the possible future uses of Sunny-brook hospital. It is a matter of some comfort to me, considering the angry comments of a year or two years ago, that I am now asked not further to increase the hospital accommodation for our men but to see what uses can be made of this accommodation for civilian purposes. The first use of Sunny-brook hospital will be, as my hon. friend advocated with a great deal of sincerity and eloquence two or three years ago, to move our patients there from Christie street; and I think the whole committee will agree that this should be done. But apart from all this acrimony, contention and controversy, we should be grateful to Providence that in the near future we are going to be overhospitalized, I think, as far as ex-service men are concerned.
There is one point, however, on which I do not agree with my hon. friend. He said the active treatment accommodation might be lessened. That was not the experience after the last war. Active treatment, recurring oases, increased up to 1939, and we might have the same experience now. But it is my honest opinion that we are going to have more accommodation than we will require, and I shall be glad indeed to take into very careful consideration the suggestion of my hon. friend in regard to a committee to consider the possibilities of future use, because Canada is definitely underhospitalized; no one knows that better than the hon. member for Parkdale. Proper hospital accommodation in Canada will be a great problem of the future, but I am sure with the active inspiration and keen direction of my hon. friend the Minister of National Health and Welfare the problem will not be neglected.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: I think the minister misunderstood me. I am very happy to learn that he is moving the patients from Christie street to Sunnybrook. My comment was only in regard to the active treatment wing at Sunnybrook, where they are providing accommodation for doing a large amount of surgery. I gave reasons earlier why I thought much of this surgery would not be necessary when this wing is finished.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Thank you.


Mr. GILLIS:: We had not intended to carry on any discussion concerning these estimates, for the simple reason that a committee of this house considered these matters during thirty-six meetings of two hours each since the opening of the session, and I 'thought veterans affairs had been pretty thoroughly discussed. In addition to bringing in some definite recommendations which were put in the form of bills, in our final report we also recognized that we did not have an opportunity in the committee to discuss many things because of the time factor. I also understood, however, that in the final report we provided that all the matters we had not time to deal with would be dealt with between now and the next session under the emergency powers given the government under bill 15, and that an interdepartmental committee would be set up to study actively everything we did not have time to study, with a suggestion from the committee that the government use its power through orders in council to extend benefits in all the cases with which we did not deal.
Having that in mind, and also having in mind that practically all the discussion we have heard this morning also took place in the committee, which in addition heard representation from outside bodies, I think the interdepartmental committee will be in a better position, after studying the evidence and the suggestions offered in that committee, as well as the opinions of the members of the committee, to deal more effectively with these matters than we could deal with them at this stage of the game, when everyone wants to get away. However, I should like to make one or two observations arising out of this discussion. I would not be on my feet now if no one else had risen, but every time someone gets up and gives a little talk, someone else gets about fifteen different ideas about which he wants to say something.


Mr. CASSELMAN:: Can you not restrain yourself?


Clarence Gillis: I have no intention of doing so. Personally I objected very strenuously

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to the removal of the insurance principle from the act in 1941, and would advocate its return if and when we have a government sympathetic on that point. We removed something else from the act in 1941 which I should like to bring to the attention of the minister. From the termination of the last war until 1941 one of the most objectionable features of the Canadian Pension Act was the right of the commission to decide that in its opinion a disability was of congenital origin. That provision opened the way to all sorts of abuses, and all kinds of interpretations were given under it. In 1941 the committee removed that section from the act, but in my opinion the commission got into the habit of deciding that a man's disability was inherited, under the congenital origin provision and their long experience in administering it, and I believe that has given rise to all the difficulties we are experiencing to-day in connection with preenlistment and post-discharge disabilities. That is something into which I believe the department should go thoroughly. We have a great many nervous cases; I believe some twenty-five per cent of all discharges from the service are because of nervous disability, and these men are not being pensioned. I am going to mention just one case on the point. A 'boy enlists, goes overseas, serves thirty-six months in Italy, goes all through the fighting, comes back to Canada and is discharged. He receives no disability; he is said to be just nervous and imagining things. That boy must have been A-l to go through thirty-six months of combat service, but he has no right to anything to-day, no pension, no treatment or anything else, and he cannot work.
I am going to leave this suggestion with the minister, and I have given it to the commission on a good many occasions. I doubt very much whether many of the neurological centres that have been set up have adequate equipment and competent personnel to exactly determine the condition of these men.
In every case where there is a doubt, the man should be taken to a central clinic and given a thorough examination. There should be no doubt on that point. The centres being set up in the different provinces are new, and it will be some time before they find their feet and have proper equipment. Even so, there should1 be no doubt on that point. The present treatment of neurotic cases leaves much to be desired.
There is one further thought I should like to leave with the minister; I have spoken about it before on many occasions. The practice of having part-time medical representatives in these institutions should be abolished. I had the privilege of visiting
Camp Hill hospital in Halifax in June of this year, and I found that in that hospital they were following and are still following the practice which had been in effect between the two wars. They had only two of a medical staff on full time, and one of those was crippled in both legs. He could not move from behind his desk. I talked to twelve service personnel who had come from the military district for eye, ear and throat examination before discharge. These men had their breakfast at seven o'clock in the morning. I was talking to them at five o'clock in the evening, and they told me that they had sat on a bench from nine o'clock until five o'clock waiting for a medical doctor to give them examination, and that they had had no lunch. That was the third day they had repeated the performance of waiting for an outside medical man.
If a medical representative is necessary, whether he be a specialist or a general practitioner, he should be in attendance on the staff full time, and should give full-time service to service personnel he is supposed to be looking after. One of the worst features of the departmental hospital set-up, is this practice of having a part-time medical representative. He is the man who rushes in for about fifteen minutes in the evening only to tell someone who has been waiting all day that he will have to come back the next day.


Mr. MacNICOL:: And then rushes out.


Clarence Gillis: Yes. May I say only a
few words about the matter discussed by the hon. member for Spadina, that of seniority. Seniority is provided for the boy who had a job when he went into the armed services. There is no problem in that respect. There is no question of seniority for the boy who did not have a job before joining the services and who upon discharge has not secured a job. This is a straight unemployment problem. He did not have a job when he went in, and he has none when he comes out. There are some who believe that the man who served four or five years overseas should upon his return have the right to enter an industry and replace someone who has been working there for those four or five years. I say that if there are those who want to apply that principle to the industrial set-up of Canada, and who wish to change seniority and trade union agreements in that respect, they will have to extend the principle to bank managers, heads of companies, and those who are connected with every organization functioning in the country. If they are prepared to do that, I believe they will have
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no difficulty with the trade union movement when a request is made for a revision in agreements.
The fact of the matter is that employment in this country is not adequately planned. If a large percentage of our returning service personnel are unable to secure employment upon return, then there are just two questions we should ask ourselves. We must ask if we do not need anything. If we do not, and if production is at its highest peak, then the thing to do is to reduce the hours of labour. On the other hand, if that is not the situation -and certainly it is not-and if we require increased production in every field, the thing to do is to take hold of the problem and to put our people to work, producing those necessary commodities required. That is what we shall have to do.
We are faced' with a further situation, which arises in the period of transition when retooling is being carried out, and when the men cannot be put to work as quickly as we would like. Provision must be made for that. As I have said on many occasions, displaced industrial workers and returning service personnel who have not jobs should be treated in this way: We should lay down a basic rate of at least S25 a week so that they will have purchasing power.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Until they do get jobs.


Clarence Gillis: Yes; until they are employed, that is the thing to do. I do not want the hon. member for Spadina or any other hon. member to have the opinion that the established trade unions in this country that have seniority rates written into their agreements are denying ex-service men seniority privileges. That is not being denied the man who goes back to his job and who is given credit for the time he spent in the armed services. The man who did not have a job, who went into the services, and who returns to civilian life without a job, is the responsibility of the state, and the state must look after him. Those who wish to extend trade union agreements on that point must extend it so that it will apply to everyone in the country. That must be the condition, if we are to set up a preferred class and drive a wedge between ordinary citizens and service personnel.
The attitude of returning service men in Nova Scotia is that they will not come back and try to wedge their way into industry, thereby displacing someone. Workers in that part of the country are unionized', and if a service man is asked to take a job and thereby replace someone else, his answer is: I am not a scab; that man has a job. The state owes me a job. I fought for it for five years. I
[Mr. Gillis.J
have vocational training, out-of-work benefits, and things of that kind, so I am not going to throw someone out of employment on that basis.
I agree with what was said by the hon. member for Spadina, and regret deeply the statements made by the general whose words he quoted1. Anyone who takes that attitude is sowing seeds of dissension and is an enemy of the state. Any man who has any understanding of the situation must realize that there can be no proper rehabilitation of our service personnel unless the whole economy of the country is utilized. It is not possible to segregate ex-service personnel and give them employment and a decent standard of living if we are to have on relief rolls a million and a half workers who produced the sinews of war.
There has to be a job for everyone, and that must be carried out all along the line. The whole economy must be made healthy. The man who says that the civilian population should dig ditches while the soldier is put to work is doing the soldier a disservice. The soldier did not dig ditches in Italy only to come back to Canada to put the civilian population at digging ditches. That is a throwback to 1939. Every last man who donned a uniform and left this country believed he was fighting fascism and to preserve liberty and democracy, and did not believe that he would come back to this country to establish fascism here, where everyone has a right to work, a right to live, a right to live a life worth living, and on a decent standard. He did not believe he was to come back here to put the civilian population out of work, and the man who makes any statement to the contrary is not thinking very much.
I am sorry I have had to occupy this much time, but I rose chiefly because of- the statements by the hon. member for Spadina. This is a most pertinent question and one which requires thorough analysis. I believe his suggestion that the Minister of Labour, the Minister of Veterans Affairs, and representatives of the legion and other veterans' organizations should handle this matter carefully, is a good one. I am convinced that you will not have any difficulty with the trade union movement if your proposals are reasonable and fair.
I want to close by thanking the minister for something. I agree that every phase of the rehabilitation of our service personnel should be kept within the Department of Veterans Affairs. For some twenty years the end of the country from which I come has been pleading with the Department of Pensions and National Health for the establishment of a

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hospital in Cape Breton to take care of our service personnel and avoid having to drag them across the province. Such a hospital has been established within the past few months and I want to thank the minister. I am not going to say anything more, except that I shall let the minister know next session just how well this hospital is working out.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am not going to enter into any controversy with my hon. friend, because we are good friends, but I must take definite and positive exception to his calling one of the finest Canadians of all times an enemy of the state. There has not been a Canadian who trod in shoe leather who did more to save this state and save the freedom of this state than Peter Hoffmeister of Vancouver.


Clarence Gillis: I did not call him an enemy of the state.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Oh, yes; I am afraid you did.


Clarence Gillis: The hon. member for Spadina made that statement, and I said that I agreed with him. He said that anyone who tries to create that kind of psychology in this country is an enemy of the state.


David Arnold Croll: On a question of privilege, I certainly did not make that statement. My hon. friend need only look at Hansard to realize that he must have misunderstood what I said. I said that no matter what I read it would not be applicable. Those were the words of a very fine gentleman, one who has the veterans' confidence. I was dealing with words only, and I never suggested-


Clarence Gillis: That is exactly what you said.


Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: Much as I would have liked to be a member of the veterans' committee, I was not and, therefore, there are a number of suggestions I should like to make at this time. The first has to do with veterans who are in sanatoria in the different provinces. Section 20, subsections 4 to 8, of the Pensions Act provides that credits accumulated in the veteran's account in the Department of Veterans Affairs while he is receiving hospital treatment provided by the department shall not form part of his estate should he die, and the dependents and beneficiaries only may receive his credits, provided that the pensions commission feel disposed to order such action. In Saskatchewan alone there are a hundred of these cases. These men believe that this section results in a major injustice being done to them. They feel that their credits which have been justly and properly earned should become part of their estates
should they pass away while in hospital. In other words, they feel they should have a legal right to the moneys that have been credited to their accounts, instead of having to depend upon the whim of any commission. I would ask the minister to give consideration to making a change in this regard. I have received a number of letters from veterans in hospitals who believe that they should have a legal right to these moneys.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: They do; the accumulated allowances go to their dependents in case of their decease.


John George Diefenbaker: The statute does not so provide. The statute makes it discretionary, and I think that discretionary power should be removed, irrespective of the practice. I want the minister to understand that if we are critical of these matters, we are still non-partisan.
I should like to refer to the administration of the Veterans' Land Act. It is a good act, and if carried out properly would do a great deal of good. While the act itself is sympathetic, the administration of the act is unsympathetic. While the law is there, the spirit of the law is not being carried out. I find' from the cases that have been brought to my attention that in the administration of the act there seems to be what I was going to term a callous disregard, but which is at least a cavalier disregard, of the necessity of administering that act in fairness to the veterans.
Let me give an example. Young service personnel who were on the farms when they went overseas are now coming back. I brought one or two of these cases to the attention of the house on a previous occasion. I have a letter here from a soldier who was three years overseas. He enlisted when he was seventeen years and eleven months old. He had lived on a farm all his life. He came back from overseas and now wants to take up land under the Veterans' Land Act. His application is refused because he was not on a farm for two years after he was eighteen years of age. In other words, he is not qualified.
I had another instance brought to my attention the other day, that of a boy in my own constituency who had won most of the prizes given in farm judging. He was turned down because he had not put in two years on a farm after his eighteenth birthday. That type of interpretation by the director, or whatever his title is, of the Veterans' Land Act is doing more to bring that act into disrepute than anything else. This man is told he is not qualified, that he must wait another two years. He is now twenty years of age.
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Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I think my hon. friend brought another case to my attention some months ago, and then there is this one this morning. I can assure my hon. friend that I intend to have that corrected at once.


John George Diefenbaker: I thank the minister. I wish to mention another case, that of a veteran who was married overseas. He finds that he cannot get land under the act because the board does not know whether his wife will be fitted mentally, or perhaps sentimentally, to be a farmer's wife. Many of these men are waiting for their wives. I have had two or three cases brought to my attention in which the wives are overseas. The men want to get them over here, but they do not expect them before April, May, June or July of next year. One of these men has been back nine months and 'he has pretty well succeeded in spending his gratuity waiting around until his wife gets back so that he can qualify if he has the necessary money available to start up under the act. As my hon. friend for Vancouver South says, they have to like the look of the wife when she finally arrives, otherwise he will not get the land.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I think the idea is that the wife must like the land.


John George Diefenbaker: That will depend on the board deciding whether she is the kind that would like the land.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Which province is that in?


John George Diefenbaker: The three I have before me are in Saskatchewan, but I think there are many others. This is penalizing men who were married overseas. They are denied the opportunity to come under the act, and that kind of administration is not the kind of thing the minister wants in his department.
I come now to the third type of case, the man who does not want land but who would like to get machinery. I have before me three cases. One of them is that of a veteran who rose to the rank of squadron leader. He served three years overseas, his father is a big farmer. This young man returned and wants to start up for himself. He needs machinery. The answer is: You cannot get any priority on machinery unless you take up land. I have that answer here. That is the interpretation of the Veterans' Land Act in Saskatchewan.
Here is another case. A man applies for a tractor. There are tractors available, controlled by the administration of the Veterans' Land Act in Saskatchewan. Although this

pool of tractors is available, and he needs one, he is advised that there is no way in which he can get one unless he takes up land. He already has the land, and he wants to farm it; yet he is denied the tractor necessary to do it.
I bring these cases to the attention of the minister to show that the administration of the Veterans' Land Act needs revamping, to say the least.
With regard to housing, I think the minister might well bring to the attention of the Minister of Finance the position of men returning from overseas who rented while they were overseas the houses they owned and now are prevented by the rental regulations from repossessing them. I think these men should be granted an exemption from the present rental regulations and enabled to get back into their own homes after a reasonable period.
There is also the matter of reestablishment in business. To-day all that is given to the returning soldier is a "hunting" licence, permitting him to hunt for stock and commodities for his store. All that is available to him is a twenty per cent quota. W'hat is actually taking place is that the veteran who is seeking to establish himself in business cannot open a business at all. He has the power physically to do it, but there is no preference given to him to assure him of a reasonable share in the commodities he requires to go into business.
There is one other matter which was referred to by the hon. member for Cape Breton South, a matter we have not dealt with in this parliament but which may well develop into a serious problem within the next few months. I see the Minister of Labour in his place. I realize the tremendous responsibility that he carries with such urbanity. No matter how serious the problem, the minister always smiles.


Humphrey Mitchell: Enough crying when
you are dead.


John George Diefenbaker: That is the spirit,
but I am afraid we shall be crying within a few months unless something is done about this problem. Men are coming back from overseas and unemployment is piling up. The statistics for December show that there was a reduction in employment in September last greater than at any time in the last twenty-five years. This indicates the seriousness of the problem. I should like to hear a statement from the Minister of Veterans Affairs and from the Minister of Labour generally on the question of what actual planning is being done to prevent unemployment and to assure jobs. The crucial problem that faces us in this parliament, as I see it, is the maintenance

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of full employment, the government and the people of Canada assuming responsibility for the provision of the machinery for providing jobs; because the mentality that prevailed before 1939, when alongside idle natural resources men roamed in idleness, will not be tolerated. The objective must be a level of industrial production, and markets available for that production, sufficiently h.igh to assure a minimum of employment. Private enterprise must provide the jobs; the government must provide the markets. Many speak of an expanding market, and the necessity of maintaining ever-expanding markets. On the other hand I do not believe in paternalism, in an efficient economy propped up by government. That is why I come back to the question which I asked the other day and which has not yet been answered, with reference to the situation created by the recent loan arrangements made between the British and the United States governments. If under the trade arrangements made between the two governments-Canada was not present, and had no observer there-the British preference is done away with, industry in Canada will have been struck a blow that will have serious repercussions on employment. Even now, late as we are in this session, I think the government owes it to the people of this country to give us the assurance that the markets within the empire are to be maintained, or at least that the government intends to make efforts to ensure their maintenance. Without those markets, unemployment in this country, such as it is to-day, will be increased immeasurably, to the detriment of our men returning from overseas as well as of others within the next three months. I would ask the Minister for an assurance of jobs, because after all that is the first job of parliament-our job is to assure jobs. May we have a statement setting out in detail what is being done in this matter of jobs for the returning men, and what is being done to ensure trade and markets?-because we cannot let these men return once more to the unemployment that was prevalent before the war.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.
The committee resumed at three o'clock.


Mr. SKEY:: There are one or two questions I would like to put to the minister, but before I do so may I say that we appreciate the task which his department has at the present time, the excellent work that the committee have done, and the support they have had from all members. I have a few questions that have a bearing on those raised by the
member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker) just before we rose at one o'clock. First of all there is the question of interpretation which I brought up on December 11, as will be found at page 3300 of Hansard, in which I said that there was a certain uneasiness in the minds of hon. members that there might be unnecessary delay in granting benefits, narrow legal interpretations, tight rulings by the department, and close decisions by the treasury board. My only reason for rising at this late date is to call attention to one particular phase of the pension act which I think comes within one of these narrow interpretations.
On November 30, in committee, I asked a question of the chairman, reported at page 952 of the minutes of the veterans affairs com-mitteee. I had received reports that when a pensioner went to hospital and came under hospital allowances, in some cases his net income is cut down to the point where he has insufficient money to keep him in cigarettes and small comforts. I said that some of them mentioned as little as S10 a month. Those were my words, and they were supplemented by the remark on the part of the member for Winnipeg South (Mr. Mutch) that $S was the amount they had left. Since then I have received a letter which I will give to the minister if he requests it, and it contains a reply to my question. Before I read the letter I should say that the reply of the deputy minister to my question in committee was that when a veteran is admitted to hospital for a condition which is not pensionable he is allowed compassionate treatment for this condition even although it has nothing to do with service. I have a letter from a pensioner in this category in which he says;
These cases are admitted under another medical disability and then treated for their pensionable disability. By doing so, pay and allowances can be withheld.
I bring this to the minister's attention, because if a man is to be admitted to hospital for something like a common cold and then treated for some war disability, he loses the benefit of his pension.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No.


Lawrence Wilton Skey: The minister shakes his head, but this is the letter I have received from a pensioner in hospital. He says that there are cases in which the veteran is admitted to hospital for some non-pensionable disability, something that has happened to him since the war, and then when he is in hospital he is treated for a pensionable disability, which means that he should have the benefit of his pension and not have any deductions.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: He does.
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Lawrence Wilton Skey: Well, the reply of the minister-


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Will my hon. friend be kind enough to send me the case priyately-


Lawrence Wilton Skey: Yes.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: -because I am sure it is not correct.


Lawrence Wilton Skey: I will not delay longer with that case, since the minister will deal with it.
May 1 now call the attention of the committee to the multiple disability pensions now in force. I refer to page 7 of the National Council of Veterans Association submission to the special committee on veterans affairs. In the case which they cite they show that a veteran who has multiple disabilities which in total amount to 170 per cent disability receives in reality, by the scheme now in force, only 89-2 per cent, because they assess his most serious disability first and then take a percentage-


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I very much dislike interrupting the hon. member, but I would say for his information that the table of disabilities was amended last month and provides for multiple disabilities, but not to exceed 100 per cent.


Lawrence Wilton Skey: Thank you very much. I will not go further with that.
There is one other question I wish to ask the minister. It has reference to the nurses who have been employed by the Department of Veterans Affairs in various hospitals throughout the country. These nurses are not eligible for any service benefits. They were actually paid less than nurses who went into uniform and served either in Canada or overseas, and yet the nurses employed in the hospitals by the veterans affairs department applied on many occasions for release in order to join the services. They were under the same orders, the same restrictions, the same service as our ordinary nurses in the forces, and yet all the benefits of the veterans scheme are denied to them. May I ask the minister if any consideration is being given to their position.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Let me say at once to my hon. friend that there is a good deal of merit in what he says, but that applies also to all employees in the Department of Veterans Affairs throughout the country- doctors and staff. They are not members of the forces, and that is a matter that the committee might consider next year.


Lawrence Wilton Skey: -I am pleased to have that answer, but in world war I the case of 
nurses was dealt with very differently, in that they were all put into uniform and all treated as members of the services.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: But they were members of the service at that time. That is the only distinction between the last war and this one. They were not members of the forces as such in this war. We did not have a civilian department in the last war, and for a long time all these affairs were handled by the defence services and the military hospitals commission before the Department of Soldiers' Civil Reestablishment was formed. That is the distinction to which my hon. friend refers.


Lawrence Wilton Skey: I still feel that these nurses do have a prior claim to be treated in the way nurses were treated during the last war. If the minister assures me that the department will consider the matter, I will press the point no further at the present time.
There is one last question, and that is to ask the minister if the matter brought up by the member for Royal, regarding dependents of deceased personnel and their widows, has been considered and whether the minister will answer the question. He evidently overlooked it in his reply to the member for Royal.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That will be considered by the parliamentary committee next February or March.


Mr. PROBE:: Last week the minister informed me that certain hospital equipment needed by the veterans' wing of the Regina general hospital for physiotherapeutic treatment of veterans was being secured from Dundurn. This morning the member for Saskatoon City (Mr. Knight)-I see he is in his place now; I did not think he would be here-mentioned to me that he has had the same problem in connection with Saskatoon veterans. Is the equipment that was in the Dundurn military hospital or other equipment now in the physiotherapy veterans' wings of the Saskatoon and Regina general hospitals?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It is in transit.


John Oliver Probe: In the war expenditures committee we discussed the place of the Department of Veterans Affairs in pushing the claims of veterans to surplus war assets. Would the minister care to give a statement as to the extent of the liaison being undertaken at the present time between the Department of Veterans Affairs and the surplus War Assets Corporation?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: For some weeks past there has been an inter-departmental commit-

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tee of veterans affairs and the War Assets Corporation dealing with that very point. We have not reached a final solution as yet, but my hon. friend can rest assured we are going to press for the claims of the veterans.


John Oliver Probe: I inferred from the minister's statement last week that he was opposed to the idea of the Veterans' Land Act being used as a solution to the housing problems of returned veterans. I thought that was what the minister implied in his statement, and I think I was right, since he nods in agreement. I take exception to that, and if the minister feels that his department should not be saddled with the housing problems of veterans, what further positive liaison is carried on with other federal departments? What is being done there?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I entirely agree with my hon. friend in regard to that, and I also agree with the hon. member for Melfort, who belongs to his own political philosophy group over there, that the basic idea of the Soldier Settlement Act and the Veterans' Land Act is settlement on land. The housing feature of it is really an ancillary feature which has developed as being the most popular view. Twenty-seven hundred houses are being constructed at the present time, and six thousand are projected for next year. While I agree with my hon. friend that these should be constructed, and must be constructed, the other question is, who should be in active direction of that policy? Speaking personally I feel strongly that all the housing activities of the administration should be coordinated under one central authority. I believe that is the most effective thing that could be done. So long as I am in charge of the small holdings policy the houses will go on, but I do say to my hon. friend that housing is not the essential feature of the Veterans' Land Act; it is settlement on farms.


John Oliver Probe: I agree with the minister, but the point I am trying to bring out, is 'that someone in the cabinet must press for that coordination to be undertaken, and 'as I see it, it is his duty to do so.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I think my bon, friend can trust me to that extent.


Mr. CASTLEDEN:: With regard to small holdings, I know of a man who returned and wanted to get on some land. Because of his age he was not recommended; his application under the Veterans' Land Act was turned down. He then decided to make a second proposal, stating that he would like to settle himself at a filling station on one of the
highways and take in a piece of land consisting of six or seven acres. Under the terms of the act would that be called a small holding?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes; under the small holdings provision of the act at it now stands, that could be done.


George Hugh Castleden: What qualifications is he required to have in order to obtain such a holding?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: He would have to submit reasonable proof that he would be able to maintain a business successfully; that is about all.


George Hugh Castleden: He made his application, and they turned him down on that account. They said, "Oh, well, you have not a permanent income."


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: If he had reasonable prospects of a reasonable income, that would be enough.


George Hugh Castleden: The letter I received from the soldier settlement board was to this effect-


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Would my hon. friend be kindl enough to submit the case to me privately?


George Hugh Castleden: Yes. He was told that if he cared to submit an application for a small holding which showed that he had permanent employment, it would be considered. It was ridiculous for him to get a permanent job and then ask for a small holding where he could not put in his time. What can be done about returned soldiers who have land of their own and have difficulty in getting machinery? I know that the veterans department had a large quantity of machinery placed on priority. A return which was brought down in the house showed that they must have turned back about seventy per cent of the machinery on which they had got priority. Many of those veterans do not come under the Veterans' Land Act because their parents own the farm and are giving the land to the veterans. When they go to the Veterans' Land Act people and say that they would like some assistance in obtaining farm machinery, they are told: "We have nothing to do with you; you do not come under this assistance at all." The result is they do not know where to go. Would the minister give us a statement to clear that up?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Is my hon. friend referring to actual settlers?


George Hugh Castleden: These are returned veterans.
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Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Settlers?


George Hugh Castleden: They are going to settle on their father's farm, or on a quarter section which the father is giving them.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Do they get title to the property from the father; is it transferred?


George Hugh Castleden: Yes.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Then of course they are entitled to all the benefits.


George Hugh Castleden: Under the Veterans' Land Act they do not qualify for any machinery.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am informed by the director that he is doing everything possible to give further priorities for machinery to veterans under the Veterans' Land Act.


Mi CASTLEDEN:: They are told to go to the dealer, that a certificate will be given to the dealer and that the dealer will be asked to take care of them as soon as he can.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


George Hugh Castleden: Would it not be a little more in accordance with our policy in trying to assist veterans if such men as these could be placed under the Veterans' Land Act and receive the benefits of that act in the matter of obtaining machinery?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Within the limits of the available machinery, the suggestion is quite prudent.


George Hugh Castleden: Was not seventy per cent of the machinery on which priority had been obtained in 1945 turned back because it could not be used?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It has not been turned over yet.


George Hugh Castleden: I think that machinery could have been used by the department to assist veterans who were not purchasing land under the Veterans' Land Act.


Mr. CASE:: I realize that time is important, but this is an * occasion on which most hon. members wish to add a word to the discussion. We are grateful to that group of men who have played such a tremendous part in the fight for our very existence. I can assure you, sir, that I shall be brief, but there are a few observations I should like to make and some information I should like to obtain from the minister.
I have information to the effect that even a boy bom on a farm, who enlisted at eighteen or eighteen and a half years of age and now comes back seeking to acquire a farm home-

stead or other land, has not within the meaning of the act the necessary qualifications for the assistance that is granted under the act. Will the department give consideration to amendments to make it practicable for the farmer's son to come within the meaning of the act? I am not sure whether the minister's department is charged with this responsibility. I now refer to veterans who have married British girls overseas, and whose wives are still detained in the old land. There are some pathetic cases. I know it is very difficult to do anything about them, yet I do make an appeal on their behalf. I know of young veterans being returned to Canada for discharge from the army, whose wives in the old country are expecting children, and they are anxious that these children should be bom in Canada. Yet under the act they cannot be moved except within a certain time limit. I do hope the department are giving consideration to this serious situation and will try to bring these wives to Canada in order that their children may be bom here.
I should like to say a word with respect to the veterans guard, about which I believe there was some discussion this morning. I have a sympathetic feeling for these veterans of two wars who have made a tremendous contribution and now are too old to take advantage of many of the rehabilitation measures provided for their benefit. I should like the minister to say his department is giving serious consideration to some action that will satisfy the veterans of two wars who have been serving in internment camps or elsewhere but who now, at the age of fifty-five or more, do not care to take on obligations which will extend for another twenty years.
I do not think I would be fair if I did not take just a few minutes to say that I for one indeed appreciate the sympathetic and serious approach of the minister to these problems. I have had occasion to bring to his attention matters which I know do not come within his department, but he has always listened to me and sincerely tried to help. I believe we all appreciate his sympathetic understanding, and that is something the veterans will need possibly more than anything else in the world. After all, though there may be thousands of veterans, no two of them will have problems exactly the same. This afternoon we see how well the minister deals with these matters; he listens to our remarks and waits for any suggestions that may be made which will be of assistance to the returned men.
I want to refer to another matter, and in doing so I hope I shall not be misunderstood; for that happens so easily. For instance, I believe it was reported in a Canadian press

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dispatch that the members had voted themselves an additional indemnity of $2,000 for the session, and of course that is absolutely wide of the mark. I hope no deputation is waiting for me to collect mine when I get home, because actually we shall only get about $640 per annum above our expenses. 1 want to refer to the matter raised this morning by the hon. member for Cape Breton South, the relief allowance of $25 a week. We should all like to see the people of this country everywhere in receipt of $25 a week, but I want to take a realistic and practical view of this suggestion. I say to you, Mr. Chairman, and to this committee, that the moment we raise the allowance to such a level that a man has no desire to work, wTe are not doing him any good. In my opinion no man is happy unless he is employed. Employment is the greatest source of security, and I should like to see full employment at substantial wages. But I constantly ask myself whether we should offer a man a reward that will take away from him the desire to forage for himself. I suggest that to the committee as something to consider.
The last matter I have in mind has to do with the widows of service men; something I have brought up in the house on previous occasions. I should like to know from the minister whether anything has been done to see that a widow is given the reestablishment credit which her deceased husband would have received if he had come back. This is a very important matter, inasmuch as many of these soldiers married shortly before they went away, and some left small families. Many of these people are living in quarters that cannot be considered either comfortable or secure. I believe the reestablishment of a widow and her young family is just as important, in many ways, as the reestablishment of a soldier who has returned from overseas. I should like to know whether anything definite has been done with respect to granting the reestablishment credit to the widow of a member of the armed forces in order that she may be able to reestablish herself and her family.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I want to thank my
hon. friend for his constructive observations, which I think I can deal with in a very few minutes.
In the first place he mentioned the boys on farms, and thought this limitation in regard to eighteen years of age was unfair. As the regulation now is being administered by the director I believe that if the lad has had two years of actual practical experience on a farm he can qualify under the provisions of the
Veterans' Land Act. From my own memories I know that any lad who has been brought up on a farm and done the work of a farm is pretty well qualified to look after a farm himself after he gets older, so I agree in large part with my hon. friend in that regard.
The hon. gentleman dealt with the early return of the wives of veterans. A declaration in that connection was made yesterday or the day before by my colleague the Minister of National Defence, so I need not deal further with that point. The hon. gentleman went on to speak of the veterans of both wars, and made a most commendable suggestion in their behalf. May I tell him that we are now establishing a special directorate in the Department of Veterans Affairs to deal with the problem of the veterans of both wars.
Then my hon. friend went on to mention the reestablishment credit for widows. I am sorry that I am perhaps reactionary in regard to that matter. I remember when we had our committee dealing with this problem. Rightly or wrongly-it is a matter for the committee and the members of the house to decide later-we came to the conclusion that war service grants and gratuities are largely the expression of a nation's gratitude to the men who served the country in time of war. We treated the credits as a conjunct function combining in the first place the same ideas but essentially combining them over a ten-year period with reestablishment as such, and relating it to the national economy, and belonging particularly to the individual who had returned to Canada and was being reestablished. That may be the wrong idea, but it was the basic idea behind that provision. I doubt very much, and I say this without hesitation, the advisability of extending the reestablishment credit to anyone except the ex-service man who comes back to Canada and seeks to rebuild a home for himself or herself, because it applies also to women. I believe those were the main points raised by the hon. gentleman, and I thank him very much for them.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: Will the minister pursue that matter a little farther? I know of some unfortunate instances.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It will come up for discussion when the Pension Act will be considered by the veterans affairs committee, I imagine about next March.


Mr. BAKER:: I have been a member of this veterans committee and hope to be a .member of the veterans committee next session. I spent a great many hours, time which perhaps I should have spent on my
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constituency, trying to solve these very matters.	I	appreciate	all that	has been	saidhere	by	hon. members, and	I know it hasbeen said in all earnestness and true sincerity ; but I wish hon. gentlemen would bear	in	mind the	fact that on this	committee there were sixty veterans of either the first or the second great war. I happen to be one of them. Please do give us time to work	out these	things.	We have	been
doing our best to work out these matters, and we shall do the same next year. But do give us a break, and do not spend all this time discussing these matters here, because all you are doing is detracting from the hard work the committee has done. We will give you everything we have at the next session, ' and I am sure many of these matters will be dealt with satisfactorily then.


Mr. FERGUSON:: As a veteran of the first great war I should like to make one observation. During the last war I corresponded with probably four hundred men overseas. AM those men, without exception, had one desire: "Get me a job; give me a job." Mention has been made of General Hoffmeister's remarks to the effect that a veteran ought not to have to dig ditches. I say this: Veterans want jobs. No one should make a promise to keep a man from digging a ditch if he is properly fitted for that work and if he digs a good ditch. I would much rather dig a ditch and be paid for it than be a white collar man and starve to death.
I make the plea to get these men back and give them work. Do not make too many promises, because these young boys become confused. My young brother-in-law enlisted at the age of eighteen and served six years with the flying corps. He is now twenty-five years of age, and upon returning home he does not know which course to take. My advice to him was: Get to work, and have the other fellow pay you while you are looking the ground over.
Give these men jobs. Those who are maimed or have become physically defective because of the war should be looked after one hundred per cent. Move them out of that disgraceful Christie street hospital, for which both Conservative and Liberal governments are responsible, and put them into a hospital we can be proud of. Look after the blind and the maimed. But do not promise those boys the world with a fence around it. They have served a great purpose. Do not fill them with promises. Give them jobs, and they will prove themselves worthy, as they did during the war. When they enlisted as volunteers they did not need promises to show what they could do. They do not want promises now,

with one exception, and that is that they have a job. Fulfil that promise of a job, so that they may do their work. They do not want to be keyed up with promises, take courses, and after getting half way through them, slip back and three or four months from now find their own levels. Give them jobs; and give those who are maimed the proper kind of treatment.


Mr. GREEN:: During the present session
there has been very little discussion of veterans affairs in the house. The main reason, of course, was that we had a special committee studying veterans affairs. I agree with other hon. members of that committee when they say it did good work, and I appreciated the privilege of serving on it. I believe every member who gave that service feels the same as I do, and I am sure we shall be able to do good work for the veterans in next session's committee.
The work of the special committee had to be limited to certain things; there was not time to cover everything. We recommended three bills which have now been passed by the house, one to amend The War Service Grants Act, another to amend The Veterans' Land Act and a third to provide rehabilitation allowances for veterans. That meant, of course, that we could not consider such vital questions as pensions, war veterans allowances and hospital treatment. It is true that some representations were made on those points, but there was no lengthy consideration of any of them by the committee. Now, of course there can be no further consideration until the next session.
The department submitted to the committee two draft bills, one proposing to amend the Pension Act and the other to amend the War Veterans Allowance Act. Those two bills show that departmental officials have in mind at the present time certain things in connection with those acts.
I have five questions I should like to ask the minister, which deal particularly with pensions and war veterans allowances. First of all, in respect of pensions, we have contended for a long time that a provision should be written into our Pension Act to the effect that a man's condition on admission to service shall be presumed to have been his actual condition, and that if subsequently there is any deterioration prior to his discharge, the onus shall be upon the state to show that such deterioration was not caused by his service. For some reason or other we have never been able to make much headway with that suggestion. The result out in the country where we meet the veterans is that

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time and again the pension commission holds that a man's condition was a preenlistment condition, and when they do that they may or or may not grant the applicant a partial pension on the ground that such preenlistment condition has been aggravated. But where the pension is based on an aggravated preenlistment condition it is always smaller than if it had been held that there was a straight disability.
I know of several cases where injustices have been done. These are not only men who served in Canada, but also men who served overseas.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It does not apply to
overseas cases.


Howard Charles Green: Oh, yes. I know of cases
where it has been found that a man's condition was a preenlistment condition, and he was allowed only an aggravation, and not an out-and-out disability pension. Sometimes I am tempted to blame the pension commission. If this goes on indefinitely there are going to be many veterans in Canada not receiving the pensions to which they are entitled.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: In the event of aggravation of disability caused overseas, the applicant is entitled to the whole amount of the pension, unless the condition was obvious, recorded or wilfully concealed.


Howard Charles Green: The difficulty is this. A man is accepted by the army, after many examinations. He is found to be perfectly fit. He goes overseas and in two or three years comes back, receiving his discharge as being medically unfit or in a lower category. Then, if you please, the pension commission finds that he had some preenlistment condition. In other words, although he was accepted as fit, and although everybody thought he was fit, several years later the pension commission decides there was something the matter with him when he enlisted and that therefore he is not entitled to full compensation for his disability. I know of cases where that has been done.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The principle of fit-for-service fit-for-pension has never been accepted by any country in the world.


Howard Charles Green: I do not think the minister should emphasize so much Canada's having the best laws for veterans.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I was not referring to that.


Howard Charles Green: I hope it is true, but I know that in some respects it is not. However that
is not the test. The test should1 be whether or not these laws could be improved, and here is an instance where they could be. I suggest there should be a section written into the Pension Act which will make the situation clear. I will suggest a section which the officials of the department and the minister might consider. It would read:
It shall he presumed-
And this is not something which takes place automatically; it is a presumption-
It shall be presumed that an applicant's condition as recorded on his admission to the service was in fact his condition at that time, .and that any subsequent deterioration was due to his service.
In other words this sets up a presumption in favour of the applicant.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is the same as the British provision?


Howard Charles Green: Yes, it is practically the same as the provision in Great Britain.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: My friend took this matter up last year in debate in this house. We made a thorough examination of the significance of the presumption which was embodied in the British amendment^. My advisers, rightly or wrongly, say that under the existing conditions the provisions under our Pension Act are more generous.


Howard Charles Green: That is not the way the act works out with the disabled veteran. I know of cases in which the veteran is losing out.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: We will study it between now and next session, and then it can be taken up by parliament.


Howard Charles Green: If a presumption of that kind were followed by the pension commission it would mean that this man could qualify for a pension. Further I think the minister would find that such a section would change the outlook of his pension commissioners.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I shall be glad to go into it fully.


Howard Charles Green: That is the first suggestion. It is important that the department should go into these matters before the next session. Do not let everything die now until the house meets again. It will be weeks later before the committee is set up and there will be no amending legislation until May, June, or perhaps even later.
My next suggestion has to do with the insurance principle. I am not going to go into this again, because the minister knows how we feel about it. We feel it should
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be restored to cover men who enlisted to fight, even though they were not able to get out of Canada. We do not want to protect the man who never had any intention of fighting, but these other men should be covered by the insurance principle. The minister has said that there has been a compromise section put in the act. He is quite right; that is section 11, subsection 3. It provides that if a man has been disabled and cannot qualify for a pension; if he is in difficult circumstances, then the pension commission may in their discretion award him whatever they feel like awarding. There is a means test to it, which of course is a bad feature. I notice in the submission of the National Council of Veterans' Associations, presented to the special committee this year, it was pointed out that not only is there a means test at the start before the man qualifies for a pension, but the commission can go back and back and means test the man. If his financial condition improves, his pension may be reduced or taken away altogether. They suggest that once a man qualifies he should be entitled to have his pension continue.
Then there is another serious difficulty. Under that section a man may have a pension granted by the pension commission-* the minister will correct me if I am wrong- but he never gets the full amount according to his disability. Even though a man is 100 per cent disabled he can never get more than two-thirds of the total disability allowance under that section. That is so, is it not?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That may be correct; there was a feeling that there should be some distinction made between that type of case and the battle casualty overseas.


Howard Charles Green: That needs to be given further consideration. If a man is 100 per cent disabled and is entitled to pension under this section, he should get a pension corresponding to the amount of his disability. I would ask that further consideration be given to that. Then with regard to war veterans allowances, which have been mentioned briefly today; this act is to be changed as well. By the way, the changes that I have mentioned were not included in the draft bills the minister handed to the special committee this year, and that is why I am mentioning them here.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There is no such thing as a draft bill before this house.


Howard Charles Green: It was before the committee. The amendments that I am going to suggest to the War Veterans Allowance Act were not in the bill the minister put before the committee either. I think eventually the means

test will have to be done away with under the War Veterans Allowance Act. The dominion government has proposed to the provinces that old age pensions will be paid at seventy years without a means test. The war veterans allowance was supposed to be a form of old age pension to the veteran who had been burned1 out. He was made eligible for allowance at sixty years of age instead of seventy. If the principle of automatic payment is put into the old age pension legislation, I think it will have to follow into the war veterans allowance legislation.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: We are trying to be mutually helpful in regard to the pension situation. Out of over 40,000 pensions payment, more than 5,000 were awarded for service in Canada only.


Howard Charles Green: I think if the minister
checked up on the other figures covering the applications for pension he would find that the percentage of those who can get over the hurdle in Canada is very small, unless it has jumped a lot since last year. There should be a widening of the right to earn without disqualifying one for a war veteran's allowance. The man *who has been thrifty all through his life and put away a little savings cannot get a war veteran's allowance until he has spent practically all of his savings. He cannot have a proper home in the city without losing a portion of his war veteran's allowance. The restrictions are too severe and I suggest that they be studied carefully before the committee meets again.
The minister took a surprising stand this morning with regard to imperials. It is an old argument, it is a poor argument, but it sounds good. The minister said that we cannot allow any imperial to get a. war veteran's allowance because there were thousands of Canadians who got to England1 but who are not eligible for war veterans' allowances unless they are pensioners; therefore why should anything be given to imperials? That sounded different from the speech made yesterday by his leader on the question of indemnities. There may be two wrongs here, but it is no answer to one to say that there is another wrong.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I will go this far with my hon. friend: cure the first one first, cure the Canadian one first.


Howard Charles Green: The qualification for a war veteran's allowance is based on service in a theatre of war, and the only request that has ever been made by an imperial for a war veteran's allowance was by an imperial who had served in a theatre of war.

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Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is quite correct.


Howard Charles Green: That should not be confused with the Canadian who did not serve in a theatre of war. If the minister is correct in his stand, the Canadian who never served in a theatre of war would get a war veteran's allowance before the imperial who had served in a theatre of war.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The request made to us by the association was with reference to imperials who had come to this country up to 1930; it was asked that they be entitled to the benefits of the veterans' allowances. That would mean that the Canadian who had served in England would'not have preference over the ex-imperial who came here in 1930.


Howard Charles Green: The minister is taking the two groups together, the one group who actually served under fire and the other group who did not. I think that is an unfair position to take. I am not trying to deprecate the claim of the Canadian who only got to England, but certainly that does not meet the situation of the imperial who was under fire and who came to Canada after the last war. That man gave up rights under the social security measures in Great Britain which were far greater than anything he would receive here. He became a Canadian citizen and has stood shoulder to shoulder with us ever since that time. He cannot qualify now simply because of an argument such as the minister has put up to-day.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am afraid I am being annoying, but may I say. this to my hon. friend, that I know of no Canadian parlia-ment-I am not speaking about parties or governments-that has yet accepted responsibility except for Canadians who left the shores of Canada.


Howard Charles Green: There were domiciled Canadians, men who left the shores of Canada some years before the fighting took place. I do not agree with the minister. He has gone this far, and I am glad to get him out in the open. When we get' into power we shall meet, the problem of these imperials; if I have anything to do with it, we certainly will.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I 'hope they do not have to wait that long.


Howard Charles Green: It may not be as long as the minister thinks. He is just whistling to keep his courage up.
Another question on which I should like some assurance has to do with what we call the non-pensioned widows. They are now
entitled to a payment; what they really get is a war veteran's allowance, and they are getting that payment under an order in council. It- has never been put in statutory form.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Is that not in the new bill my hon. friend has in front of him?


Howard Charles Green: The minister said a few moments ago that this is not a bill. Is it or is it not? I agree that it is in this hypothetical bill.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It is to be considered by the committee.


Howard Charles Green: Is there any doubt that they are covered by the order in council in the meantime? That order in council will not be invalid in the meantime because of the termination of the War Measures Act?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: They are covered this year by the appropriation act, and will thereafter be by the proposed measure to be considered by the select committee when it meets again.


Howard Charles Green: I*suggest that the minister give consideration to putting it in statutory form if there is any doubt about it.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: We have given that definite consideration, and we have no doubt whatever about their being covered.	t


Howard Charles Green: My final question has to do with the dual service pension. It is called a pension, but is really a war veteran's allowance. The submission has been made that the payment should be on the basis of a reward for service, in other words, a service pension for long service to the country. Most of these men were three or four years in the first great war and perhaps five years in the second. It is only fair that the payment should be based on that service rather than on a means test. I have no doubt that the department considered that aspect of it, but can the minister explain why it was not made an actual pension rather than a war veteran's allowance?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Because the request was definitely received from some of the leading veterans' organizations to have it considered not as a pension but rather as an allowance under the veterans' allowance act. I say with the utmost frankness that it is not a success as it is now, and I think it should be one of the duties of the committee next session to go into the matter thoroughly and make new recommendations in regard to it. I do not think that the dual service order is any good.
REVISED EDITION*
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Howard Charles Green: I hope that the minister and his able officers will work out some suggestions for the committee by, the time we meet next year.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: We shall do that.


Howard Charles Green: I agree that it is a difficult question, but I suggest that the payment should be based on service rather than on a means test.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: We shall be glad to consider that. I think we have had a very fine ' debate, Mr. Chairman, and I wonder if I might now ask the committee to make some progress with these estimates.


Mr. MacINNIS:: Mr. Chairman: I must protest at the rushing through of important business at this time. This is the only opportunity the members have of getting the ministers before them to deal with matters of the kind, matters about which all members receive letters, telegrams and other communications with which we are bound to deal. Let us remember that we are now receiving overtime, and there is no reason why we should not work for it.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I think we are.


Angus MacInnis: So far as I am concerned I am going to deal with these matters now.
I have never taken up the time of the house in dealing with veterans' affairs. It was not necessary for me to do it because the veterans have exceedingly capable representatives in this house wrho have been doing a good job for the veterans ever since I have been here.
Someone suggested this afternoon that we take a realistic view of this question. It was the hon. member for Grey North (Mr. Case) when he was referring to the point made by the hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Gillis) that when veterans are unable to secure employment they should be given an adequate living allowance. I think we have established that principle too, and I do not see why the veterans should not have the benefit of it as well as members of parliament.
It was realized some time ago that the question what would happen to men of the armed services when they return fro it) overseas was a very live one. It was an important question in the federal election campaign in May and June of this year, and all candidates took a considerable part of their time to deal with it. In everything that I had to say on this question, either at public meetings or in broadcasts, I made the point that so far as legislation was concerned Canada had good legislation for the returned men-perhaps, as the minister has said, the best legislation in

the world. I think that is conceded. But I pointed out that if economic conditions in this country became depressed, no matter what special provision we had made for the veterans, the veterans nevertheless would suffer. Economic conditions now are becoming depressed, and a veteran who .would not have difficulty under prosperous economic conditions will find himself in difficult circumstances as economic conditions become worse, and he will come to the government for relief. So the question that is confronting us to-day is not simply a question of dealing with legislation for the veteran; it is a question of dealing with the whole economy of Canada and the committee requires considerably more time with the Department of Labour, the Department of Veterans Affairs, the Department of Reconstruction, perhaps the Department of Agriculture, and the Department of Finance. All of these are interwoven and will have to coordinate their efforts before we can successfully cope with the problem of improving economic conditions. I put myself on record as supporting the proposal made by he member for Cape Breton South that the veterans should be granted an adequate living allowance if employment cannot be found for them.
I1 have another matter to bring to the attention of the minister and I bring it up because I promised to do it. The corps of Canadian fire fighters overseas has sent a brief to the minister which perhaps was discussed at the veterans committee. The gist of the brief is that these men should be given the same benefits as the men of the armed services. I asked some questions in regard to the number of Canadian fire fighters who went to the United Kingdom from Canada, the average length of service, and how many were killed, wounded or died of serious injuries or illness overseas. The answer was that 408 went overseas; the average length of service was two years, eight months and fourteen days; three were killed, five wounded, and five seriously injured.
Obviously these men were a part of the fighting forces. Is there any reason, therefore, particularly considering that the number is so small, why they should not be given all the benefits accruing to other returned veterans? Of twenty-two enlistment benefits for veterans, six benefits have been received; five benefits have been received with conditions attached, and to eleven benefits they have no entitlement at all.
I suggest to the minister that he put the fire fighting corps on the same basis, so far as benefits are concerned, as the men of the other armed services.

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Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I thank my hon.
friend for his remarks. Whether we were right or wrong, last year, when we passed the order in council, a distinction was made by the committee, on advice from various departments that there should be a differentiation between those who were members of the armed forces and those who were not; therefore it will be found that supervisors and some of the ancillary services, such as fire fighters, do not receive the entire amount of benefits that are received by members of the services. Whether that was right or wrong is a question I shall not debate now, but that was the dominant argument behind the decision made at that time. As a matter of fact, I remember very well receiving a delegation from the fire fighters in my office when the projected order in council was under discussion, and they appeared at that time to be satisfied with it, although since then there have been marked complaints. The whole question will come up before the committee of the house next March.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I want to help the minister get through as quickly as possible; therefore I shall be brief. I know that he is one of the hardest working ministers of the crown; far be it from me, then, to detain him longer than is absolutely necessary. In the first place, I feel it my duty to compliment the minister on his programme, in reference to making the recommendations or regulations, or whatever they are called, having to do with non-pensionable widows, into a bill and making them statutory.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I think my hon. friend deserves most of the credit for that.


John Ritchie MacNicol: No. The minister deserves the credit, and I will give him all of it. I was just a humble worker following his programme. The minister really did a great service to the country, because non-pensionable widows were a part of the population who had not got a fair deal. The minister tackled the problem, and I happened to help him, and in due course these widows were looked after. I am glad to see that the matter will now be made statutory.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The vote is increased
by SI00,000 this year.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am glad to hear the
minister say that, and again I compliment him. I wish to say a word with reference to fire fighters. The chairman is very humble and modest. He could have taken a great deal of credit for the fact that the chief of the fire fighters overseas came from his own fine city of Brantford. I am right in that, 47696-225|
am I not? Yes, I am. A large number of these men came from Toronto, many from my own riding, but like many other members I have risen to bring up the problem of these men. I am not competent to say whether their work was comparable with the work of the soldiers, but a number of them were killed and others were wounded, as we have heard to-day. For my part I am satisfied to leave the matter in the hands of the minister. If he can do anything to give these men fair play I know he will.
I wish to bring up a couple of cases I have mentioned before, and again I am going to be brief. I want to be as kindly as I can, and therefore I begin by saying that personally I have always had the utmost courtesy and satisfaction from the minister and his staff. I have no complaints to make in reference to the way I have been treated. However, I was greatly concerned in reading, as other members have been in the last few days, about the shooting of Canadian soldiers overseas, as strikingly recorded in this morning's Globe and Mail of Toronto in the following article:
Lonely Walk of Canadians to Death Told. By Ralph Allen, staff correspondent of the Olobe and Mail. Aurich, December 14.-A story of sadism and mental torture that sounded like an oriental horror tale entered the records of the Kurt Meyer trial to-day as one of Meyer's former soldiers described how a German officer stood in a monastery courtyard and hurled taunts .at seven Canadian prisoners of war just before he sent them through a little ivied gateway, one at a time, to be shot dead by .an SS corporal waiting for them on the other side.
That article recalls to my mind the case I brought up before of George Stevens, who lives on Salem avenue, Toronto, and whose number is 57727. What I fear is that Mr. Stevens, perhaps in bitter resentment of the fact that he has been unable to present his case so that it will be sympathetically heard, has written to the department letters which on being read were not at all favourably received. I do not blame Mr. Stevens, because he was-a prisoner of the same type about whom L have just read. He and others were captured' in a trench in Belgium and lined up against, the wall. He understood a bit of German,. and he heard the officer in charge of their captors saying, "We will shoot these English-ers." He called them all English, using that word. Just at that moment a German officer came along and, on being told what was about to take place, prevented the shooting. I can well imagine the horrible feeling that must have possessed these Canadian prisoners on being lined up to be shot.
I fear that the gentlemen of the department who have to do with such oases do not
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quite realize the effect which this has had on these men. I know Mr. Stevens very well. I have known him ever since the war ended. On many occasions I have seen him sitting on the edge of the sidewalk, helpless, unable to move. But when he is taken to hospital and put in a nice clean comfortable bed, with nurses to wait on him, after he has been there a day or two the doctors take his temperature and they pronounce him one hundred per cent fit. That does not sound to me like common sense. If I wanted to get the truth about such a man I would oall in his neighbours. They are the people who see him daily. They meet him here, there and everywhere, and I would take their word in preference to the word of a staff of doctors from here to Jericho, because the doctors see him only after he has rested and his blood pressure and nervous energy have been restored. I brought this case up before. The minister kindly said that he would look into it and he did. I know that, but he took the reports from his staff. Forget all about the staff.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I cannot afford to do that.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That is the unfortunate part of it.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: They are very efficient.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That is what I say; they are honest and qualified. They get their reports from the doctors in the hospital who see the man after he has been there two or three days and has regained calm equilibrium. That is not the right basis to go on. I know a man whose condition was brought to the attention of the department. I did my best to get some consideration for him." I was told by the commission that he had no case, but he died. The man knew he was right, but the doctors thought they were right because they examined him after he was in the hospital for some time and had become shiDshape.
I had another case brought to my attention the other day, that of Francis J. Rider, whose number is 465004. I have known Mr. Rider for twenty-five years. He used to be an employee of mine. I have seen him in all sorts of conditions. I have gone to his house and found him hardly able to breathe, with froth running out of his mouth and down over his breast. He is making a claim for bronchitis, which he claims he contracted due to his war service, and I believe it. I knew him before he went overseas. He was placed in the hospital and the doctors saw him a day or two after he was there. But it was after he had been attended by pleasant nurses,

waited on, his meals brought to him three times a day. Naturally he regained a calm equilibrium, his breathing became all right and the doctors looked him over and pronounced him a hundred per cent. That does not mean very much to me.
I know of another case, a Scotsman, in whom I believe. He would not need to swear on a bible for me to believe him. I have seen him in an abject condition. His name is William Robertson, and his number is 534262. I took up his case- with the department, and I really believe the department has tried to do something for Mr. Robertson. They made an investigation; they sent him to Christie street, and recently they sent him to Ste. Anne's. I have seen him in a pitiable condition many times in his own home, but when he gets into these fine warm beds with pretty nurses waiting on him, serving him meals three times a day, he makes a great improvement. Then the doctors come in, look him over and pronounce him a hundred per cent. I am going to leave that with the minister. I ask him not to take the medical report but to take the report of the neighbours on the street who have seen this man in the condition which I have 'described. If the minister does that, and I trust- him, he will give these three returned soldiers a square deal.


Mr. KNIGHT:: I should like to add my voice to that of the hon. member for Vancouver East. I prepared a long brief on this matter, and I agree with the hon. member when he says that he does not think sufficient time is given to these important problems. I am not going to threaten the minister with a forty minute speech, and what I say may be a little disjointed because it is difficult to boil down a forty minute speech into a five minute one.
Something should be added to the argument made on behalf of these fire fighters. They should) be treated as ordinary veterans are treated. At the end of niy five minute speech I know the minister is going to tell me that the committee is giving this matter earnest consideration and that he is quite sure that something will be done about it next year. But he has not stated definitely that a bill is to be brought down to put these men on an equal basis with the veterans. I presume at this stage the minister could not promise that in so many words.
In fairness to the Canadian fire fighters I say that in view of the conditions of their service and the terms of their employment they should be granted all the rights and privileges which have been granted to the

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military forces. In reply to the hon. member for Vancouver East the minister said that the differentiation is a matter of combat service.
I should like to give from memory the words of the Minister of National Defence when he said very heatedly that so far as he was concerned the front lines were where the bombs were falling, irrespective of whether it was in England! or on the continent. I am in full agreement with him there. These men were subject to military discipline and' military pay. They suffered the risks of the actual veterans, and in some cases more risks, because they helped defend England! at an important time in her history, when bombs were dropping on all sides. Evidence of that is given in the fact that several of them were killed.
I am not going into a long argument as to the benefits which have been denied these men. One of the most important, at least to the young men, is the denial of the right to have an education at the expense of the people of this country. These men are not all seasoned firemen coming back to their jobs. Some of them are young boys who left school to go into the fire fighting forces. I have a letter or two from several of them who complain that they cannot now complete their education. One or two of them have taken on liabilities in the form of wives, and they would like to get some further education, but they cannot do that. I shall read one short paragraph from one of the letters:
In addition to the disappointment of every member of the corps, the omissions of this order in council have very far-reaching effects for me personally. I was married overseas, but due to the uncertainty of the available financial aid, my wife will not be able to join me until next spring. Prior to enlistment, I was a student at the university of Saskatchewan where I was enrolled in a type D arts course leading to theology. I am planning to return to university this next term, but am keenly disappointed that I shall have no financial assistance in the form of an educational grant. It may mean that now, with family responsibilities, I shall he unable to complete my chosen course.
These men have almost everything in common with the regular combat soldiers. They volunteered for the duration of the war; they offered life and limb. Like any other soldier, they accepted discipline. They accepted comparable pay and allowances; their term was like that of the soldiers. The carried Canadian army cards, and were medically checked and finger-printed by the Canadian army. Their conditions of eating and travelling and so forth were the same. I would say to all intents and purposes these men were simply Canadian soldiers who were defending Britain, iust as the first division may have been said
to be defending Britain all the time it was over there even though it' had never fired a shot.
I believe the main argument which is motivating the government-I am not speaking for the government-is that there has to be a line drawn somewhere. I am guessing again when I say that the government may say that if we give it to these men, a great many other auxiliary services will say, "If they get it, we should get it," and so on. I think I have answered the argument that these men are not military personnel. I have shown that they carried different weapons, weapons of defence; that they suffered the hazards and the conditions of the war. They were subjected' to the risks of fire and' of war, of falling bombs.
I have shown how they accepted pay and discipline comparable to that of the army.
The government may argue that to meet this demand might precipitate demands from other services. I do not think that argument is valid. These men were more nearly on a par with the military than with any of the other serivces, as I have shown. It is true, and I think this is a good argument, that these men did not receive as high a rate of pay as some of the other services; that is to say, they were restricted simply to military pay. It will be said, of course, that we cannot afford it. I am not going into that matter at the moment, but when millions of dollars are being voted here every day, the cost of meeting the claim of these men would be a mere drop in the bucket. You may say I am becoming financially as irresponsible as a [DOT]Social Crediter, and that may be so. Personally I am not worrying very much about the national debt; so far as Britain is concerned, for instance, I do not think as yet she has paid back the money she borrowed to beat Napoleon in 1815, and I do not suppose our debt will be treated any differently.
There is just one other point I should mention. These men were never promised the full rehabilitation grants, but time and again they have said they understood they would receive them. I am not going to delay the committee longer, but I promised I would bring up this matter and I have done so to the best of my ability. I thought probably the minister would prefer to have me spend five minutes on it now than forty minutes when the item concerning fire fighters came up.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
1,01. Treatment services, $11,066,516.
Mr. MOORE:: I should like to ask one question with reference to veterans of the first world war, from whom I have had several
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letters concerning the difficulty they have experienced in obtaining pensions for wounds they received other than in an actual theatre of war. I should like to know if the minister contemplates any change in the present act which would enable these men to obtain the benefits of that measure.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: At the moment I cannot make a definite declaration of policy, except to say that the Pension Act will be reviewed by a committee of this house, probably some time next March, and any complaints made by hon. members will receive sympathetic consideration at that time.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
404- Veterans' bureau, $224,137.
Howard Charles Green: In the submission to the special committee by the National Council of Veterans' Associations in Canada there was a recommendation that the veterans bureau should be an independent commission having authority and freedom equivalent to that enjoyed by the Canadian pension commission. Then they went on to suggest that the chief pensions advocate should have powers suitable to his office and equal to those of the chairman of the pension commission. They further suggested that the office of travelling inspector of the veterans' bureau be filled by a full-time advocate, in order that he might exercise constant supervision over the work of preparing cases in the district offices of the bureau. I-think the minister will agree that there always has been a feeling that because a pensions advocate was paid by the government he might not be working 100 per1 cent for the soldier. I am not saying that has been the case, but there always has been that reaction, so it does seem to me this suggestion is worthy of very serious consideration. It might be that if the bureau were given a higher status and made more independent the veteran would feel that he was getting stronger representation in presenting his case. What has the minister to say about this suggestion?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: My hon. friend will agree that we have all been working day and night; I have not even had a chance to look over these representations, and neither have my officers. But I can promise that they will be carefully studied within the next two months.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
405.	War veterans' -allowance board-administration, $191,577.
Mr. \\ RIGHT: I should like to ask if the department is giving any consideration at the 
present time to increasing the amount a veteran may earn and still receive his allowance. At the present time I believe it is only §125, which is ridiculously low.
Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am afraid this item has nothing to do with the actual benefits obtained by recipients of the allowance; it deals mainly with administration. The other question raised by my hon. friend will be considered by the committee, of which he himself is a very able member.


Mr. WRIGHT:: That is not going to help
the veteran out in the country at the present .time. This has to do with the veterans' allowances, and certainly it comes under the minister. Under what item should that discussion take place?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I think you will find
it comes under item 408.


Percy Ellis Wright: 
Ian Alistair Mackenzie: With all due respect
to my hon. friend, this matter is going to be considered by the committee. Some unkind things have been said to the government in regard to regulations and orders in council, and the suggestion made by my hon. friend involves an entirely new principle. The present legislation was passed by this parliament, and I would not propose to' take any action in connection with it until I had heard the representations made to the committee next year.


Percy Ellis Wright: That is all very well, but
this government has passed plenty of orders



IS, 1945

[Stage Direction]
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in council which have affected other people and put money in their pockets. When we come to ask for a little bit for the veterans, however, it is not possible.
Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I object to that remark, Mr. Chairman; it is not fair. This parliament has done as much for veterans as any parliament in the world. There has been no niggardly policy of any kind, and there never will be.


Percy Ellis Wright: I do not want to get into an argument with the minister, but I ask him if that is not a niggardly policy.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I do not think so.


Percy Ellis Wright: Is it not niggardly to make a deduction from the pension of a veteran when he earns more than S125.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I have been in this
parliament since 1930, and I have heard nothing but commendation year after year in regard to the provisions of the War Veteran's Allowance Act and its administration. Can my hon. friend point to any act in any of the allied countries to-day that compares with the veterans' allowance act in Canada? If there is any hardship hon. members of this house, regardless of party, will give it e'very consideration; but when the hon. gentleman asks me to declare government policy at the present time in regard to this principle, I am not going to do it.


Percy Ellis Wright: I am not asking the minister to do that. We have already admitted the principle by allowing a man to earn up to S125. That is t'he principle now. What is the matter with increasing that amount to $300? You will not be changing the principle at all but simply increasing the amount the man may earn. That does not change the principle of the act.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
406.	Veterans insurance, $100,861.
Mr. WHITE (Hastings-Peterborough):: The minister may recall that when this bill was before the house a year ago the matter, of income tax and succession duties in regard to the proceeds of an insurance policy was brought up. At that time I asked the minister if the proceeds of these policies would be subject to either income tax or succession duties, and the minister replied that he was not sure but would make inquiries. He also told me at that time thaJt as far as he was concerned he thought they should be exempt from the payment of both income tax and succession duties. On Monday, March 26, 1945, in answer to a question I had placed on
the order paper it is stated1 that the proceeds of a soldier's insurance policy are subject to succession duty, if the estate as a whole is above the succession duty exemptions. It is stated, secondly, that the proceeds of a policy payable as a life annuity are taxable.
If the minister has made inquiries as to these policies I should be very glad to hear his comment, and if it is still correct that the proceeds are subject to succession duty, and still taxable as annuities, perhaps he will tell us about the situation.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The situation is
exactly as the hon. member has described it.


George Stanley White: Is there to be no change?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It will be considered.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
407.	Payments to or for veterans and dependents; European war pensions, $37,000,000.
Howard Charles Green: As I understand it, the present practice is that where a pension is awarded on the basis of any figure, say between forty-five per cent and fifty per cent, the disability is cut down to the nearest unit of five. For instance, if a man's disability is forty-eight per cent he receives a pension to the extent of only forty-five per cent?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes, that is correct; it is statutory.


Howard Charles Green: Why is that done? It seems to me that it is unfair, and that a man should receive at least his actual percentage of disability.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It is in the act,
schedule A.


Howard Charles Green: Why not give him the benefit of the doubt and increase it from forty-eight per cent to fifty per cent, rather than cut it to forty-five per cent.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It is in the act now. However, the hon. member might make a suggestion when we meet again.


Howard Charles Green: When the minister was interrupting me a few minutes ago he gave the numbers of pensions awarded to men for service in Canada only. Can he now break down that figure into the number who receive pensions under section 11 (I) and those who have them under section 11 (3)?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I shall get that in a minute or two.


Mr. STIRLING:: Is there any reason why the word "European" should be in here?
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Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There is a separate item in the war appropriation estimates dealing with other pensions; this item refers to world war I.


George Stanley White: Does this include pensions paid to widows of deceased pensioners? If so, what percentage would a soldier have to receive so that on his death' his widow would continue a pension?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Pension is $60 a month for the widow and additional allowances for the children.


George Stanley White: I think I did not make myself clear. I understood that a soldier had to have a disability of at least fifty per cent before, on his death, his widow would continue to receive a pension. I should like to know if the percentage has been reduced, because the minister must know that in many instances the widow of a soldier drawing a disability pension of even forty or forty-five per cent is often, on the soldier's death, more entitled to continue to receive that pension than the widow of the soldier who was receiving possibly sixty per cent or seventy per cent as a pension. It seems to me there has always been discrimination in this respect.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The widow would1 be entitled to a pension, regardless of the amount of disability, provided that death was caused from service. But I understand the hon. member is referring to a case where there would be fifty per cent disability or more, although death was not necessarily the result of war service.,


George Stanley White: How does the department arrive at fifty per cent? Why not make it forty per cent or sixty per cent?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Tor many years it was eighty per cent. Then parliament in its good judgment reduced1 the amount to fifty per cent.


George Stanley White: Would the minister care to express his opinion as to why the widows of all pensioners should not continue to receive the same pensions after the dteaths of their husbands? Does he not think they are entitled to those pensions?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The reason for the stipulation of fifty per cent-and1 I believe I was here when this change was made-was that there was a presumption that when disability was fifty per cent or more, war injuries or war disabilities might have -been a contributing factor in the cause of death.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.	,

i09. Unemployment assistance, $100,000.
Howard Charles Green: Is the government accepting responsibility for all unemployed veterans? The minister will recall that after the depression there were repeated debates in the house as to whether or not the dominion should accept full responsibility for the unemployed veterans. Has a decision been made in this matter?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The hon. member will realize that this vote refers only to what we have had in the last twenty-five years. I believe he will know as well as I dkj the various policies declared and announced from time to time respecting measures to meet the problems of world war II. Many of those policies have been embodied in measures which received1 the consent of parliament at this session. They have dealt chiefly with vocational and educational training, and various other benefits under the post-discharge reestablishment order. Then, of course, there are the various benefits in connection with pensions and1 veterans allowances which will be dealt with next time we meet, when we shall also deal with war service grants and gratuities, and out-of-work benefits.
In connection with the temporary situation of unemployment-and I feel sure it is temporary-the department has certain advice to offer. There are 15,000 of these men who at the present time are taking training in our universities in Canada. Between 20,000 and
25,000	are taking vocational training. Then there are a few on out-of-work benefits.


Howard Charles Green: How many?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There are 5,000.


Howard Charles Green: Those benefits continue for only one year.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes, awaiting employment. Our advice would be that so far as possible the men should preserve and conserve their gratuities for the next three or four months, and accept these out-of-work benefits. Then they should avail themselves of the full value of the gratuities and rehabilitation benefits at a time when we believe that employment conditions will be greatly improved. That is the advice; whether it is sound or not, I am not in a position to say. However, I believe it is.


Howard Charles Green: I hope there will never be any unemployment problem among veterans in the future.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I hope so.,


Howard Charles Green: It will be recalled that the
provinces and municipalities took the stand

Supply-Veterans Affairs
that the unemployed veteran was the problem of the dominion government. My suggestion would be that sooner or later some consideration will have to be given to this matter by the government.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I agree.


Howard Charles Green: I take it that so far no
decision has been reached, but that problem will have to be faced at some time.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is correct. That is one of the specific problems referred to in the proposals made to the dominion-provincial conference.


Percy Ellis Wright: I understand that this payment is just for veterans of the first war.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Percy Ellis Wright: Has the minister any
figures showing the number who are receiving payments?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
1,10. Hospital and other allowances, $650,000.
Alfred Johnson Brooks: This morning I asked the
minister some questions respecting mental institutions for mental cases overseas. I believe he did not answer.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I think that was the
only point I missed when I replied. There are three or four different stages ranging from restlessness up to a definite mental condition. In the first class, as my hon. friend knows, are those who have lost a, certain amount of confidence and have no desire for initiative in employment. We are building health and occupational centres where they are reconditioned and we are already having very good results. This is similar to the work carried on by the workmen's compensation board of Ontario. There is no discipline; everything is free and easy. I think my hon. friend was out with us to see the one here in Ottawa a few months ago.
The second class is that which was referred to by the hon. member for Parkdale, the neurosurgical and neurological. We have eight hospitals in Canada, and then we have adjoining wings in other hospitals where provision is made for operational cases of this nature. The third class is the neuropsychiatric cases. We have Scarborough Hall, fifteen miles from Toronto, which I have visited and where we are obtaining excellent results. It is foundationed on the pattern of Mill Hill in England, and Doctor Bailey in Toronto is having wonderful results.
The fourth class of cases are the definite .mental cases. We have two hospitals of our own, St. Anne's near Montreal, and Westminster at London, but mainly we must rely upon the cooperation of the provincial authorities. They have been very cooperative in every regard.	[DOT]


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Is it the intention of the
department to remove these cases at some later day to institutions of our own? I would repeat what I pointed out this morning, that in New Brunswick a commission investigated the provincial hospitals and made a strong recommendation that all soldier cases be removed from that institution. I think they should be.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I agree.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I think the department, should take some steps in this connection.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is the objective as soon as we can get the necessary accommodationitem agreed to.
1,12 Widows' compassionate allowances, $1,000,000.


Percy Ellis Wright: The minister was to give me the number of those receiving payment at the present time. I should also like to know the circumstances under which a person may receive these payments.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The number receiving unemployment assistance in October last was 102.


Percy Ellis Wright: What would be the circumstances that -would qualify a man for this assistance?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: A pensioner, out of work with no available income.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Soldier settlement and Veterans' Land Act- ,
1,19. Payment to the government of the United Kingdom on account of losses under the 3,000 British family agreement of August 20, 1924, and the New Brunswick 500 British family agreements of August 4, 1927, and August 27, 1935, $25,000.
Alfred Johnson Brooks: How much money is still owing to the British government in connection with this matter?
M.r. MACKENZIE: I will find out in a moment. In the meantime I suggest that we resume the practice of last e-gpning and call the supplementaries.	.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
607. District administration-further amount required, $415,244.
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Veterans Affairs
Howard Charles Green: A recommendation was made by the special committee in connection with the shortage of space for the Department of Veterans Affairs, and I should like the minister to tell us what is being done in Vancouver. We have an anomalous situation there. The old hotel Vancouver, containing several hundred rooms, has been used as a barracks for some time and has housed many hundreds of soldiers. The building is now empty at a time when soldiers and their dependents are crying for housing. There are many other people trying to get office space, and we have the Department of Veterans Affair's shouting for a new building. Yet we. have this large building right in the centre of the city completely empty. It is under lease to the government and, b understand, cannot be turned back to the Canadian Pacific before next March or April. Is there any possibility of bringing some of the government departments into that building or of using it to accommodate single veterans or married veterans with no children?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The last suggestion made by the hon. member has received definite consideration in the last two days. A conference has been going on between the hon. member for Victoria (B.C.) and the mayor of Vancouver for the purpose of dealing with the Hotel Vancouver situation. There is a need for accommodation of ex-service men, especially those mentioned by my hon. friend, the single men or the married men without children, and I think that need is much greater than the need of our department. As my hon. friend knows, we have about twenty thousand feet in the old Hotel Vancouver, and I think arrangements are being made to transfer us to a building on Georgia street. We are examining it this . week-end. As my hon. friend also knows, we are erecting a headquarters building near Robson street in the west end.


Howard Charles Green: The same situation must exist in other centres of Canada. Would it not be possible to have some of the other government departments give up space to the Department of Veterans Affairs? The war has been over for many months and yet the different defence departments have many buildings; surely some could be given up to the minister's department.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: My hon. friend was never more friendly to me than he is at this moment. If he only knew of the misery we have gone through in trying to get space in Ottawa, Montreal, Vancouver, Toronto and Winnipeg 1 I can assure him that we have

not rested one day, but we have not been conspicuously successful up to the present time. I wish the Minister of Public Works were here to hear what we are saying.
Mr. MaeINNIS: I wish to associate myself with the hon. member for Vancouver South in his remarks about the need of living accommodation in Vancouver. I understand that strong representations have been made to the government in that regard, and I hope the minister will use his great influence to have the situation eased by using the hotel.


John Oliver Probe: I should like to lay a complaint before the minister at this time with respect to the payment of salaries to certain overseas personnel who were brought back to work in the district offices of the Department of Veterans Affairs. I happen to have exceedingly intimate knowledge of one veteran who was returned from overseas to work as an occupational counsellor. This application was solicited by a board which was overseas about a year and a half ago. This man stated on his application that he would expect to receive a salary of $3,600, which was the top salary in that category. On returning to this country he was rated No. 1 in the civil service examination and classified as the top of the list. Accordingly he was the first one returned. When he did return he received a salary of $3,000. Upon complaining to the civil service commission, which apparently had the onus of paying his salary, he was informed that that was the limit which could be paid to a man taking that post for the first time. After three or four months spent in writing back and forth, this particular man resigned. I consider that he should have redress and I would ask the minister to make a statement on that.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There is a civil service regulation that no more than the minimum can be paid if another candidate for the position is prepared to accept that minimum. My hon. friend's friend is apparently suffering from that regulation. Would he be good enough to send me the details of the case?


John Oliver Probe: I shall be pleased to.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Soldier Settlement and Veterans' Land Act-
616. Administration of soldier settlement; British family settlement, general land settlement, and Veterans' Land Act, including engineering and other investigational planning and subdivision expenses that do not add tangible value to real property-Further amount required, $1,578,430.
Percy Ellis Wright: I wish to say a few words with respect to the administration of the

1	Supply-Veterans Affairs
Veterans' -Land Act. The administration, I believe, are endeavouring to do a good job in the selection of the land and in the selection of the men who are going on that land under the permanent farming scheme. But sometimes I think they are a little too careful. I should like to bring one series of cases to the attention of the minister.
The administration has a regulation which states that the man may not be settled under the act until such time as the board have met and discussed the /natter with his wife. She must appear before the board and the board must be satisfied that she is a suitable person to go on the farm as the settler's wife. A lot of boys are coming back now whose wives are in England and will not be returning to Canada before next June or probably July. These boys want to obtain a piece of land now and to have a home ready for the wife when she returns. But the board say, no, we must see your wife first. The result is that a lot of these boys are very much dissatisfied. They consider it only right that when they have come from a farm and have always lived on a farm they should be allowed to obtain land, become settled and be able to receive their wives when they come to this country.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The practice is, if the prospective settler is a promising one likely to make good, to place him immediately on the land as a tenant only until his wife comes back from England. That is the practice now.


Percy Ellis Wright: As a tenant only. But he can occupy the land as a tenant?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes, and the chances are 100 per cent that if he is likely to make a good settler he will get title.


Percy Ellis Wright: There is one other class of cases I should like to bring to the attention of the minister. I have had letters from people who have bought small holdings in British Columbia but have been unable to get occupancy because those at present living on the property refuse to vacate. They feel they are suffering an injustice by reason of that. Is there no way of dealing with this class of case?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I have not heard of it before but I shall take it up right away. I thank my hon. friend for bringing it to my attention.


Mr. FAIR:: Has the minister seriously considered a suggestion that I have made-here on four or five different occasions that a clause be inserted in the veteran's contract guaranteeing to-day's prices for the farm products he produces. That is a vital clause to insert 47696-226J
in the contract, and if we do not do so I am afraid that in a few years time we shall have deflated prices for agricultural products which the veteran settler will have to accept, although he contracts to buy his land at prices obtaining to-day. If prices of farm products are not guaranteed to him I can see a number of veterans again becoming victims under the land settlement scheme.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That matter came up very strongly in the committee. My hon. friend took it up and the committee gave it consideration. It will be again considered when the Veterans' Land Act comes up next session.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
If2.7. To provide for protection of security-soldier settlement, $90,000.
Alfred Johnson Brooks: The minister was going to answer two questions. The hon. member for Vancouver South had asked what was the number of ordinary pensioners under section 11, subsection 3, of the act.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Do I understand that his question was how many of the 5,000 pensions were for service in Canada; how many came under section 11, subsection 2, and how many under section 11, subsection 3?


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Yes.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There were 1,124 under section 11, subsection 3, and the difference between that number and 5,000 would be under the other subsection.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I also asked in connection with item 419 dealing with the tripartite agreement between the government of the United Kingdom, the federal government and the New Brunswick government, how much was still due to the British government?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The amount owing to the British government under the 3,000 British family agreement cannot be determined until the families complete their settlement agreements. I am sorry that that is the best answer I can give.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
DEPARTMENT OP AGRICULTURE Production Service-
JiS8. Health of animals-To provide for payment of compensation to owners of animals affected with diseases coming under the operation of the Animal Contagious Diseases Act, which have died or have been slaughtered under circumstances unprovided for under the above act and regulations thereunder, in the amounts detailed in the estimates, $348.
Supply-Agriculture
Mr. CHARLTON:: I appreciate very much, Mr. Chairman, the opportunity of saying a few words on this item, having missed the item in the regular estimates. Although there has been considerable discussion regarding salaries of civil service employees, I believe . the question to be so serious that I do not apologize for taking further time to discuss it here in committee to-day.
The figures I shall give are taken from the public accounts, 1944, and include only those whose salaries are $2,400 or more. Of these, I have figured out the percentage of the total employees in the various departments and branches listed below who are receiving S3,000 or better.
Percentage Receiving No. of $3,000 or
_ ; _	Employees Better
Civilian army services, Department of National Defence	
216	43-9Administration, Department of Munitions and Supply..	1,026	65-2All branches of Department of Mines and Resources ..	61-4All branches of Department of National Revenue	39-0
All branches of Department
of Agriculture	 30-9
Various branches, Department of Agriculture:
Botany and plant pathology	 43-2
Entomology	 '	37-9
Central experimental
farm	 59-5
Branch experimental
farms	 42-1
Live stock and poultry..	40-0
Plant products	 37-5
Dairy products	 14 -3
Health of animals	 252	5-5
In view of these figures, Mr. Chairman, can you wonder why there have been approximately ninety resignations from the health of animals branch since January, 1943? The general public may not realize the serious consequences which m ly develop from this situation, but we of the profession do, and the minister was warned as far back as 1943 of the situation. What has been done regarding it? Several orders in council have been passed, of which I will give the numbers: P.C. 83161, of October 4, 1935; P.C. 6818 of April 6, 1939; P.C. 49417 of December 20, 1944; P.C. 215720 of August 24, 1945. All these orders in council were passed in an effort to increase in a small way the salaries of this branch of the civil service, but it had little effect. As late as September 28 of this year another order in council was passed, P.C. 86282, raising the salaries of this particular branch and making several reclassifications. At the present time there are five grades: CMr. Mackenzie.]
junior veterinary inspector, grade 1, 11,800 to S2,400; grade 2, $2,400 to $2,700; grade 3, $2,700 to $3,000; senior veterinary inspector, grade 1, $3,000 to $3,300, senior veterinary inspector, grade 2, $3,300 to $3,600.
I have here file number 451690 O.G.F., competition No. 451690. Here is one little item which would seem in my opinion to be very misleading;
While this examination will qualify for employment of veterinary inspector, grade 1, and assignments will be made in this class, persons so appointed, after a period of satisfactory service, may be considered for advancement to positions of veterinary inspector, grade 2, $2,400 to $2,700.
The point is, what period of satisfactory service does that mean? While all this was going on there were two orders in council passed on May 31, increasing the salary of the chairman of the civil service commission and that of the chairman of the pensions commission, $2,000 each. How can we expect maximum efficiency under such conditions? There is a great discrepancy apparently against the health of animals branch of the Department of Agriculture.
What are the rates in the corresponding department in the United States? I give them:	Professional, class 1, starting, at $2,000
and, if satisfactory, rising to $2,600; class 2 from $2,600 to $3,200. Then the following classes:
Class 3	
$3,206	to	$3,800Class 4	
3,800	to	4,600Class 5	
4,600	to	5,600Class 6	
5,600	to	6,500Class 7	
6,500	up
To give hon. members some idea of the situation as it exists to-day at Canada Packers Toronto plant, in 1940 there^were sixteen veterinarians. As of November 1 of this year there were six in charge of an even larger kill * than in 1940. Not only can this situation affect the producers of live stock; but it may have its effect upon consumers as well if sucl inspection is not being carried on efficiently. Practically every available veterinary inspector has been taken from the field to take care of the excess in the packing plant. As a consequence, the work in the field has been more or less neglected. No further herds are being accepted for accreditation or listing. In so far as the restricted area plan is concerned, work is virtually at a stand-still. Thirty-eight counties or districts in Ontario have been tested, and of these there are only seventeen that can be declared accredited areas. In other words, there are twenty-one counties yet in the process of being tested, and very little work has been done in the last

Supply-Agriculture
year. Nine counties which have applied for the test have not yet received it, and a similar situation exists throughout the rest of Canada.
If this condition is not corrected it will mean the loss of thousands of dollars to the farmers of the country, not only through the continued spread of the disease but by the probable dropping off of exports of our cattle to the United. States. No compensation is paid under the restricted area plan and, if reactors are left in the areas, it will undoubtedly mean a set-back of the tuberculosis eradication plan because of further infection from the reactors left in the areas.
Bang's disease control in Canada is far behind that carried on in the United States. The plan in the state of Connecticut, as outlined by the hon.-member for Lanark, at page 3097 of Hansard, is a very good one, with one exception as indicated by that hbn. member, in that calves in the test and slaughtered herds, the equivalent to our listed herds in this country, were not bound to be vaccinated. That was in the original plan. This condition, however, has been changed within the last few weeks, and it is now required that every calf to be raised shall be vaccinated'.
I should like to quote from the proceedings of the forty-eighth annual meeting of the United States Live Stock Sanitary Association:
It remains to outline, briefly, the bearing of the facts at hand on field vaccination in reducing immediate losses .and on sanitary measures looking toward actual reduction of the incidence of brucellosis.
Brucellosis is the United States term for Bang's disease or contagious abortion.
Regarding the immediate reduction of losses, which with questionable accuracy is eometitmes designated "control," our results fully support the original claim that the vaccine provides valuable protection. Despite failures, which we should learn to expect even when fresh live vaccine is used, the vaccination prevents, delays or mitigates a high percentage of brucellosis.
At the bureau's animal disease station, Mingle and Manthei have conducted experiments in. which they have proved that under conditions which should favour such a change, it has been impossible to increase the virulence of strain 19. They have also shown that when strain 19 is injected intravenously into pregnant cows in such large doses as to cause abortion the infection disappears before the next pregnancy, and that if normal pregnant cows have contact with them and are exposed to aborted fetuses, they fail to become infected.
In addition to these two experiments that were conducted under most exacting research procedures there are many other reports of work of a similar nature, and probably hundreds of instances in which calves have been vaccinated in negative herds without spreading infection to other animals. Indications are, therefore, that there is no danger of strain 19 reverting to an onanism of increased virulence or that, in its present degree of stability, it oan establish disease in vaccinated animals or spread disease to
associating animals. So far as we know there is
not a single ease on record at present in which .infection with strain 19 has occurred through contact with vaccinated animals.
That is the general opinion in this country, and that is probably why strain 19 has not been accepted here as it is in the United
States.
Haring has mentioned several herds in which brucellosis has been controlled by whole-herd vaccination with the subsequent vaccination of calves. It appears, therefore, that whole-herd vaccination will have beneficial results in infected herds in suppressing infection and abortion.
In our control programme adult vaccination must obviously be restricted. We must not lose sight of the fact, however, that much more good than harm will .result from whole-herd vaccination, that it is the most simple plan to adopt to inhibit the spread of infection and abortion, and. therefore, that it is better than a do-nothing policy.
Whole herd vaccination, with subsequent calf vaccination, in herds of the kind indicated, is a matter that justifies serious consideration by state officials. The bureau recognizes the fact that whole-herd vaccination is being performed in many states of the union without the sanction of the state authorities and in many instances in violation of state regulations. To permit the dhe.of vaccine in .animals other than calves, the restriction on labels of vaccine containers will be modified in the near future. It is believed that if .adequate information can be made available on the advantages and disadvantages of adult vaccination to owners of infected herds it will result in closer cooperation between herd owners and regulatory^ officials, and will result in the suppression of infection and abortion in thousands of herds that would otherwise be untouchable so far as supervisory control is concerned.
It is our aim to eliminate brucellosis from our cattle population. To safeguard the progress we have made in the federal-state programme and to extend our services in this connection, we should make use of 'all methods available. Particularly should we concentrate on practices within the economy of time and man-power that will accomplish greatest results and of a kind that will adapt themselves to the post-war or normal continuation of this work.
Why is it then that there is a law in this country against the use of strain 19 for whole-herd vaccination? I have shown that in the United States they have proven satisfactory results can be achieved both in the case of calfhood vaccination and in whole-herd vaccination where the outbreak is of a serious nature.
It is my belief that this disease, commonly known as contagious abortion, has probably caused to cattle producers the greatest loss of any disease affecting cattle in this country. True, as the minister said the other day, a great many listed herds are annually tested free of charge by veterinary inspectors of the health of animals branch. It is, however, my sincere belief that these listed herds are by
Supply-Agriculture

far the mo^t vulnerable, having neither natural nor acquired immunity; and as long as the disease is present in the community or area, these listed herds are most susceptible to a severe outbreak of the disease, because it is practically impossible to protect them against infection by any or all of the accepted principles of sanitation.
It is true that strain 19 is not a cure for the disease, but used wisely it can be of great value as a protection against its occurrence. It is my belief that calfhood vaccination should be part of the listed herd plan. Otherwise we are only developing a herd which will tend to defeat the purpose, as evidenced by the number of outbreaks in listed herds across the country in the last couple of years.
Whole-herd vaccination should be legalized for accredited veterinarians, to be used only in the case of severe outbreaks of the disease. As was pointed out by my colleague, the hon. member for Lanark, this disease not only affects cattle, but causes a condition known as undulant fever in humans, making it doubly important that every possible method be adopted to inhibit or prevent its occurrence. But with the present staff in the health of animals branch it is practically impossible to carry on any further programme. Therefore, in order to do anything in this regard we must get the men first. Salary increases should be brought about in order to get men. We should then go on and complete the present tuberculosis eradication plan. Would the minister kindly consider recommending the vaccination of all calves to be raided in the listed herds? Whole-herd1 vaccination by accredited veterinarians in the case of severe outbreaks should be also recommended, and when an adequate staff is available we should follow in the accredited areas with a plan to vaccinate all calves to be raised, such as they have carried out in the state of Connecticut.


James Garfield Gardiner: I was not clear whether the hon. member had in mind that in the department we were still following the practice that we followed up until about two years ago when we did not recommend1 the use of calfhood vaccination at all. As a matter of fact we recommended against it. I forget when our policy was changed, but during the last couple of years we have been encouraging the use of calf vaccination in this country.
In the discussion that I had with the hon. member for Lanark the other night I think I said that we were giving consideration to the application of somewhat the same principles to the treatment of Bang's disease as we have followed in the past in connection with tuber-

culosis. I hope to be able to discuss it at greater length next session when we bring down the estimates for next year, but at the moment our chief problem in connection with all these matters is the one which was raised by the hon. member for Brant at the beginning of what he had to say, namely, staffs to do the work. It is not altogether a matter of pay, although I admit that if we had higher pay or higher inducements to men to come into the veterinary profession a few years ago we would have more of them to-day. Up until about the time the war started our chief difficulty was that there was so little in live stock, because of the prices that were being paid at that time, that veterinarians were seldom called. As a result of their not being called they simply disappeared from the countryside. We have a great many of the veterinarians that could be found across the country working for the government, at the present time. Many of them just had to leave the country districts. They were not able to make a living. That is probably the chief reason why there were not more men to take a veterinary course. Therefore our difficulty to-day is to find veterinary surgeons in many parts of Canada who have had considerable experience. For example, where I farm I have to go thirty-five miles to find a veterinarian.^ It takes a pretty good animal to pay a man to come thirty-five miles even in good times. In poor times most people just do the best they can in treating the animals and do not call in a veterinarian. That situation has changed to some extent, and it makes it a little more difficult for us. Men are called to-day and some are inclined to go out and establish their own practice in certain areas. On the other hand, we are trying to' get back some of the men that we had before the war. Some of them are now coming back.
Some comparison was made between the numbers we had in certain places before the war and the numbers we have had within the last year. That is somewhat due to the fact that we have been at war. Many of them enlisted in some branch of the war services, and some of them are now coming back. So that we are gradually getting these men back into the service.
The other evening we discussed the question of the salaries of these men and the salaries of other technical men. At that time my, hon. friend was not here, but I suggested that in the Department of Agriculture we had perhaps gone farther under the order in council which was passed last April, in having special cases checked and reclassified, than any other department. But we know we have not gone far enough, and we are all looking for-

Supply-Agriculture
ward to a general reexamination of the staff now that the war is over, bringing together the allowances which were paid in lieu of cost of living during the war and the salaries listed in these votes, in order to improve the position of many officials of the department. I have no doubt that as time goes on, and without too much delay, many of the difficulties that have been complained about will be removed.
I would offer only one criticism with regard to the comparisons made in the early remarks of the hon. member, when he mentioned the Department of Munitions and Supply and the different war services. I think it is obvious that salaries in those branches would have to be better. To a certain extent they are temporary; people have to be induced to serve for short periods of time. The comparisons made by the civil service commission, and made by ourselves when we are checking, are rather with the established departments that continue right on through the years, whether we have war or not, and that will be with us all the time. I do not know whether we are on all fours with all other departments, but as I said in discussing the main estimates it is the job of the civil service commission to see that we are. I think we raise the question ourselves as often as any department in the service, and each time it is argued that our men are paid on the same basis as those of any other department. It is difficult to answer an argument of that kind put up by a commission which has been established by this house and which has authority to make these decisions. However, at all times we are working for a better standard of pay, although we have to take into consideration salaries paid in other departments and other services.
As between this country and the United States there are many reasons why at the present time it is difficult to keep our pay at the same rates as theirs. . Their price standards and wage standards are out of line with ours all the way through, but whether they have a greater value than ours is another question. One would have to go much farther than just to compare salaries in order to arrive at a conclusion as to whether the lower rate of pay here carries with it the same purchasing power as the higher rate of pay in the United States. Just to quote the dollars does not give the whole answer, although I admit that salaries for this kind of service are and have been for some time much higher in the United States than in this country, and I agree that many of our good men leave Canada and go to the United States on that account.


John Alpheus Charlton: In the case of part-time
veterinarians the pay now is S10 a day- for a maximum of fifteen days a month. Does the minister find difficulty in obtaining veterinarians at this rate?


James Garfield Gardiner: I could not say that we have had difficulty in getting them. On occasions men have said that they did not want to take on departmental work, because they had sufficient work of their own, but usually we have been able to get the part-time men who are available across the country at the rates we have been paying. I would hot argue that they are paid enough.


John Alpheus Charlton: I asked that question
because if there had been a heavy outbreak of cholera in western and southern Ontario counties last fall, I wondered whether men would have been available to look after it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Hi. Special Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act and water storage-further amount required, $350,000.
(An amount of $500,000 is available in the appropriation for reconstruction for the St. Mary and Milk rivers water development project.)
James Garfield Gardiner: I should like to call attention to this item in connection with the . discussion we had the other evening. This is a supplementary estimate to pay for the work already done this year, and hon. members will note the paragraph in regard to the St. Mary and- Milk rivers water development project. That notification is inserted in order to call attention to the fact that this money has already been voted bj the house in the amount appropriated for reconstruction, and an arrangement has been entered into between the reconstruction department and the prairie farm rehabilitation organization under which $500,000 is to be made available for that purpose.


Mr. BLACKMORE:: Would the minister tell the committee whether or not this money is appropriated for the construction of the St. Mary river dam?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes; that is exactly what it says, and it cannot be used for any other jrurpose. It is assigned to us from the- other department for that purpose and' cannot be used for any other work. I would take it that part of it might have to be revoted in the next estimates, because obviously it would be very difficult to spend the whole $500,000 between now and the end of March. However, we hope to put on the type of consulting engineer necessary in order to check construct
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tion of that kind, and to utilize part of this money to proceed with the calling for tenders and other preparations for the work.


John Horne Blackmore: May I express to the minister the appreciation of the citizens of the federal ridings of Lethbridge and Medicine Hat for his forward step in bringing this great project into existence.


Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: I should like to ask the minister the total amount expended by his department or by the federal government in conjunction with the provincial governments and the property holders in looking after emergent repairs to dykes in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. If the minister has not the figures with him now, perhaps he could give them to me later.


James Garfield Gardiner: I am sorry, but I do not have the figures before me. However, the total amount, as it runs in my mind, was $250,000. I have not the figures by provinces.


Percy Chapman Black: Perhaps the minister could give the figures to the committee or to me personally later, showing the different projects and the expenditures on each in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, and giving the amounts spent by the proprietors and the provincial governments.


James Garfield Gardiner: I think I can give that this evening.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
190. Departmental administration, $287,000.
Mr. FLEMING:: In what I have to say with regard to these estimates I hope I may be both brief and constructive. In the first place, as a new member of the house I have been surprised' at the meagre amount of time that* has been devoted to the highly important subjects of health and welfare, although we have been sitting here for over three months. I believe there are reasons for that. Perhaps the house has foregone a discussion of these questions because the dominion-provincial conference has been in session. Those of us who sit in this part of the house have refrained from doing anything to muddy the waters of delicate negotiations between the dominion and the provinces. I believe the government will realize that we have deliberately refrained from doing anything to embarrass in any way the progress of negotiations, because there is no field in the whole realm of government in Canada in which it more vitally important that there be the closest possible cooperation between dominion and provincial governments than in the kindred 
fields of health and public welfare. One can only hope that whatever recommendations may come out of the dominion-provincial conference, or whatever its decisions may be, it will be possible to bring about closer cooperation in order that health and welfare measures may be forwarded to the general advantage of Canada. The health of all the citizens of Canada is and must be the concern of all the citizens of Canada, and similarly in regard to measures of necessary social security.
One matter of regret I have is that, in the framework of committee organization existing at the present time, there is not any provision for a standing committee on health, welfare and social security. For some years there has been an informal committee Which meets at the call of the minister or the chairman. The committee consists of representatives fiom this house and the other place, but it has no official status and I believe, has met on only three occasions during the present session.
If I am not mistaken, the minister himself might welcome action on the part of the house toward setting up a permanent standing committee in the fields of health, welfare and social security. I can conceive that it would be of infinite advantage to the minister if there were such a standing committee. That would be the committee to which questions could be referred for close and detailed study which, unfortunately, the house when assembled either as a house or as a committee of the whole just cannot give.
The country is moving forward in these matters, and if there ever was a time when it was desirable that the committee structure of the House of Commons should be revised and brought up to date, surely that 'time has come. There is much in the committee organization that is archaic. Here is one situation where the need of a newly constituted standing committee has been abundantly proven.
For these reasons I hope the minister will forward, during the time between this session and the next, proposals for a revision of the rules of the house to provide for the appointment of a standing committee on health, welfare and social security. I would urge, further, that in the interval between this session and the next, the government should also give consideration to the inclusion within the scope of the Department of National Health and Welfare a subject which in my humble submission really belongs to that department. In Great. Britain the subject of housing, and the responsibility for the administration of government housing policies, is vested in the ministry of health. At the present time in Canada under the present organization, much

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of the housing policy is administered by the Minister of Finance. To some extent there has been intrusion in this field by the minister of Reconstruction and Supply. The Minister of Finance is greatly overworked, and his department is a heavy one. The Minister of National Health and Welfare has recently shown his readiness to take on additional responsibilities while the house has been in session. There has been assigned to him general supervision over the national film board, and also over Canadian information service, the successor to the wartime information board. It may be that if given an opportunity the minister might be prepared to assume responsibility for supervision of the housing policy in 'this country, and I think such administration might logically be placed in the department which he heads.
I wish just to offer this concluding suggestion, that in the administration of his department, the minister should at all times endeavour to the utmost to use the existing social services provided by the provinces in the administration of whatever social measures are embarked upon by the federal government. There is no field in which it is more important that there be some attempt at unified administration; and with qualified bodies already in existence and trained to deal with social problems, I suggest that they should be used in the administration of whatever social measures are inaugurated by the federal authority.
The last thing we would want to encourage in Canada would be a multiplication of social and welfare services doing parallel work. It. is very much better in these matters relating to health and welfare if we come down as close as possible to the people who are in need of the services; and the governments in closest contact with those needs are the municipal and provincial governments. I hope that the policy followed by this department will be one of trying to use existing srevices provided by provincial govenments, or under provincial legislation, and 'that there will not be any considerable amount of unnecessary duplication of services, a condition which can result only in wastefulness and chaos.	.


Hon. BROOKE CLAXTON (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: May I say just a word in acknowledgment of the helpful suggestions made by the hon. member for Eglinton, and also by other hon. members who took part in the discussion of these estimates on December 3. We appreciate their encouraging and helpful suggestions, and I can assure all of them that their suggestions will receive the most serious consideration.
To-day the hon. member for Eglinton has referred to the importance of dominion-provincial cooperation. I can assure him that we have that very much in mind. As I said earlier, we were happy to be able to report that we have the closest of good relations with all provincial departments of health, their ministers and officers. I believe the committee would be interested to learn that, following the meeting of premiers who constituted the coordinating committee of the dominion-provincial conference, an economic committee on dominion-provincial relations was set. dp, and that I had the honour of presiding over it. We held meetings from December 4, and ad-"ourned yesterday until January 8.
During the course of those meetings the health and welfare officers of the provinces came here, and we had some very useful discussions. I have been authorized by the conference to state that the discussions which dealt with the clarification and development of the dominion proposals, and matters arising from them, were carried on in a most cooperative spirit, and that substantial progress was made.


Mr. BLAIR:: I should like to say a word about the shortage of nurses in Canada, although the training of nurses is a subject which comes more properly in the provincial -Id. However, if we are to go into the subject of health services we shall require many trained nurses. Many civilian hospitals do not train nurses, with the result that there
a marked scarcity. At the present time the government is disbanding young girls from the three services, but there has not been offered to them any special training along the line of nursing, into which vocation they could be readily absorbed.
I suggest that grants could be made to civilian hospitals and provincial hospitals by the government, to remedy this shortage. At the present time people are going to hospitals because they cannot obtain nursing . services at home, or nurses who will take private duty. I know it is almost. impossible at times to obtain nurses for people who are ill, and this shortage prevails both outside the hospitals and on. hospital staffs. Has the minister any intention of .making grants to public hospitals to facilitate the training of nurses in view of the fact that we are considering a programme of health services?


Brooke Claxton: That question was raised when the estimates were up before, on December 3. At that time I gave an account of the relations between the department and the Canadian nurses' association, and mentioned the grants made by the government to that

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association to stimulate the recruitment and training of nurses during the war, at a time when a shortage had been created because of war conditions and the heavy demand by the armed forces and the Department of Veterans Affairs. I said at that time that it was not the present intention of the federal government to continue this assistance into peace time. We do not consider we would be justified in continuing this assistance any more than we would be justified in granting assistance for the training of doctors, dentists or any other professional group for which there was a need in Canada but which ordinarily come completely within the jurisdiction of the provinces. I may add that we have not had any suggestion from any province that such a grant be given and that there have been discussions at which such a request would have been made had it been in the minds of the provinces to make it. At the present time I can only tell my hon. friend that it is not the intention of the government to make such grants, either for nurses or doctors, because that is regarded as a provincial responsibility.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health branch-
191. Health branch administration, $58,732.
Donald Methuen Fleming: Has the government anj plans for the extension of hospitalization facilities or services in the dominion?


Brooke Claxton: The proposals of the Dominion of Canada made to the provinces, which will be found at page 36 of the green book, provide for loans of money at cost or slightly over cost to the provinces or through the provinces to municipalities and other authorities for the provision of hospitals. That is the only proposal made so far. In addition, we have our own responsibilities with regard to the hospitalization of members of the armed forces, veterans, Indians, sick mariners, quarantine and the like, which come within federal jurisdiction. This proposal has been made and is now under consideration by the provinces.	.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Following up the minister's reply, I take it that there is no thought on the part of the federal government of launching into a programme of free hospitalization in the country.


Brooke Claxton: The proposals put before the conference include a nation-wide system of health insurance which would provide complete free hospitalization for every Canadian man, woman and child in every part of Canada. The details of this will be found on page 31 of the green book; the proposals are 
spelled out there. They provide for a basic grant by the federal government of one-fifth of the estimated cost of the services that are shown in the table and an additional one-half of the actual cost as shown in the table, within the limits set out in the table. Those costs are to be revised every three years. The federal contribution would be roughly, 60 per cent of the cost of providing these services. The services may be inaugurated by the provinces in stages, either with regard to the different services or with regard to different areas. They are very flexible and are designed to meet the criticism of the health bill that was made before the social security committee of the House of Commons which met in 1943 and 1944. These proposals are now under active consideration by the provinces; if they were accepted, after a term of years we would have a system of free hospitalization for every Canadian in every part of Canada.


William Gourlay Blair: It would be impossible to provide the benefits under any such scheme as the minister describes because of the shortage of hospital beds in Canada. There is a shortage in the case of general hospitals and in the case of hospitals for the chronically ill. There is a shortage of beds everywhere and there are whole areas without accommodation. There are whole provinces without convalescent hospitals; in fact I believe there are only two in Canada. There is a definite shortage of tuburculosis sanataria and a shortage of mental hospitals. I believe that in Ontario there is something like 5,000 waiting cases. One might say the present number of beds in use. is 101,000 and the total present need is 143,000; the total estimated need in Canada in ten years is 161,000. Apart from these types of hospitals, there are only fifteen isolation hospitals in Canada. Is it the purpose of the minister to increase the grants for the building of hospitals in order to meet this shortage?
Mr, CLAXTON: The proposals made by the dominion government are designed to put the provinces in a position where they can _ discharge their responsibilities. No doubt the provinces in considering these proposals will have in mind the need of additional capital equipment, including hospitals, and they will make up their minds whether the proposals are adequate or not. What my hon. friend says about the shortage of hospital beds is quite true. We know his interest in this subject, both because of his profession and his interest in public health, and the facts are just as he states them. This matter is dealt

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with at length in the reference book on health, welfare and labour which was placed before the conference. At page 31 and following will be found elaborate tables dealing with hospital accommodation and needs in Canada.
The health insurance plan could not be introduced at once even if the provinces agreed and we passed the necessary legislation to bring it into effect on January 1, 1946. This would not be possible for a number of reasons. First, we would not have the necessary hospital accommodation, neither would we have the doctors and neither would the doctors be in the right places. Another reason is that we would not have the administrative experience and skills necessary to introduce the plan all at once on a nationwide basis. From discussions with experts in this field one reaches the conclusion that if we go forward along the lines of this programme the best we could possibly hope to achieve, is to have it in operation in four or five years. I know that most provinces are planning to do a good deal of hospital construction during that period just as soon as materials and labour become available.
In this connection I should say that we aim to have in the department a consultant architect on hospitals. The position has been advertised, and it brings with it a good salary so that we hope to attract a very high type of architect and equip him with a knowledge of hospital construction and planning throughout the world. He would be available to consult with the provinces, the municipalities and the local agencies. He would not draw the plans, because their own architects would do that, but he could offer skilled consultant services and submit typical plans, specifications and the like. We hope to supply that service, and it is being done to meet a resolution passed by the dominion council of health.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The other question arising out of the minister's answer had to do with the medical care being provided by the minister's department for returned veterans and their families. I . am particularly interested in the care given by the doctor of the veteran or the family, and I should like to know what is the relationship of the services that are being administered by the department in that respect.


Brooke Claxton: As I understand the hon. member's question, he is referring to medical care given to veterans under the order in council that was passed.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The minister referred to
the obligation of his department in the matter
of providing medical services to veterans and their families. I am concerned with the relationship of that service to the normal relationship that these people would have with their own doctors.


Brooke Claxton: I was referring to the
jurisdiction of the federal government. The hospitalization provided by the Department of National Health and Welfare has nothing to do with hospitalization or treatment given to veterans and their families. That is a matter for the Department of Veterans Affairs except that the Department of National Health and Welfare has to do with the furnishing of emergency services, inspection and the like, of veterans' families in transit back to Canada. That is done thrpugh. the ordinary immigration medical service and quarantine service.


William Gourlay Blair: May I ask how it is proposed to achieve a common standard of treatment throughout the various provinces? Some provinces are much ahead of others in matters of public health. Saskatchewan has been doing a great deal in T.B. for years. Will there be some liaison between the provinces and will the federal Department of Health exercise some supervision to achieve a common standard for the whole country?


Brooke Claxton: That will remain to be
worked out with the provinces if an agreement is arrived at. The draft bill which was attached to the report of the committee of the house on social security in 1944 provided for an advisory council at the federal level and for committees' in each province which would work out just the kind of thing my hon. friend has in mind. We have had a good deal of discussion over this, and I consider that it would be relatively easy to work out, in cooperation, common standards and objectives. It is recognized, however, that we could not all go at the same pace. The needs of some of the provinces are quite different from those of other provinces and it would be necessary to institute certain services in some of the provinces to fill urgent needs, where other provinces already have such services and they would do something else. But the objective would be to achieve a nation-wide high standard of medical services for everyone within the shortest possible time.


William Gourlay Blair: What is being done in the
matter of research, and what is set aside for research in maternal mortality, infant mortality, and such diseases as arthritis, infantile paralysis, cancer and tuberculosis, which are extremely important?

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Brooke Claxton: The national research
council is charged with responsibility for research in Canada, and medical research has been largely carried on under its auspices. It has a medical committee and a number of subcommittees which operate in different fields. A considerable amount of research has been done, largely by universities, hospitals, institutes and the like, with assistance from the national research council. The federal department of pensions and national health, as it was until last year, now the Department of National Health and Welfare, has not engaged in: any extensive medical research. It is carrying on some research in various fields, such as nutrition, development of standards, public health, epidemiology and so forth, but not in medicine.
With regard to cancer research in Canada there is, as hon. members know, the King George V Silver Jubilee cancer fund which was raised in 1935 and amounts to approximately $500,000. In the years from 1937 to 1940. $14,000 was paid out of that fund each year to the cancer committee of the Canadian Medical Association. In 1940 it was agreed with the association that half of the grant would be paid by the association to the Canadian society for control of cancer. In 1942 the grant to the association was reduced to $7,000 which was turned over directly to the Canadian society for control of cancer, this reduction being made at the request of the association, which found it difficult to continue its educational work among the medical profession during war time. In May, 1945, at the request of the association the full amount of the grant was reinstated for this year, to be paid to the Canadian society for control of cancer, covering expanded activities of the society. We have just recently asked the cancer committee of the Canadian Medical Association to discuss with us plans whereby the whole fund, capital and interest, will be used for cancer research, and we hope to have very shortly something started in that direction.
Cancer research is being carried on in England and the United States on a very large scale, and if we are to do anything effective in cancer research in Canada we would have to do it on a pretty large scale. We do not want to duplicate the work that is already being done in other countries, and it will be necessary to coordinate our work with theirs and make the most effective use we can of the money. The payments made to the cancer committee of the Canadian Medical Association were used by it largely

for education and information, bringing it home to people that they should take early steps to secure a diagnosis of cancer and treatment at the earliest possible day.
With regard to arthritis, I do not know of any work being done under the auspices of the national research council. With regard to maternal and child mortality, I would have to make inquiries to find out what research work was being done in those fields, if any.
As my hon. friend knows, research in Canada has been carried on very largely in institutes like the Banting institute, the Connaught laboratories, McGill university and other universities and hospitals. It has not been regarded up to now as a function of the federal government and not very much as a function of the provincial governments. We are reviewing that whole position; we are endeavouring to cooperate closely with the national research council and we hope to work out a policy which will coordinate all these activities and see that anything that should be done is done.


John Ritchie MacNicol: When the house reassembles at eight o'clock I shall be asking a short question about, the splendid work being carried on in Toronto under the auspices of Doctor Hincks. Perhaps the minister would refresh his memory and give the house some information on that after eight o'clock?


George Hugh Castleden: I should like to ask a question with regard to cancer clinics and what arrangements are made with the provinces. Is there some standing arrangement whereby the federal government will contribute on a fifty-fifty basis in raising the standard of health in a province which is prepared to take advantage of assistance of that kind? Saskatchewan is leading the field in this work at the present time, and I think other provinces should know, through this department, of the steps that can be taken to raise the general standard of health within their boundaries.


Brooke Claxton: If health insurance comes into effect, then cancer will be one of the conditions dealt with by hospitals administered under the provinces, and so would arthritis. They would be treated like any other condition, and there would be no need for special provision or assistance.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.

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After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I should like to mention the mental hygiene programme presided oyer by Doctor Hincks, of Toronto. In that city, and particularly in the section from which I come, large numbers of men joined the armed forces and went overseas. Many of them have become affected as a result of the war. I do not know that it is serious, but I had heard that the minister is initiating some new programme similar to that in which Doctor Hincks has pioneered. Would the minister give the committee some information about the programme?


Brooke Claxton: The veterans, of course, come under the Department of Veterans Affairs. Since 1918 there has been in Canada a national committee for mental hygiene and it has done useful work in this field. In 1944 and 1945 it * conducted a number of surveys and generally assisted the provinces and the federal government in promotional work and in surveys. The federal government makes a grant of 810,000 to that organization, and it is covered in these estimates. It is an excellent committee of public-spirited people who are interested in this field. We hope that the work will be progressively developed. As regards veterans affairs, that is dealt with by the department and they have been taking an active part in this field.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health branch-
195. Quarantine and leprosy, $187,647.
William Gourlay Blair: Would the minister give an account of the work carried on in the leper hospitals in Canada?


Brooke Claxton: I am glad to say that the situation regarding leprosy in Canada is one of continuous improvement. As the hon. member for Lanark knows, there is not a great number of lepers in Canada. At the present time there are two leper hospitals for the treatment of leprosy, one at Bentinck island, British Columbia, where, I am glad to say, there are only two patients; one is Chinese and the other, Japanese. Both cases are bacteriologically negative. We have another hospital at Tracadde, New Brunswick, where there are seven patients, of whom three are of French-Acadian origin, one of French and Scottish descent, two of Russian ancestry, and one, Chinese. There is no part of Canada where leprosy occurs among Canadians except
in that particular neighbourhood of New Brunswick, and I am glad to say that it seems to be almost completely arrested. The operations of those two very small hospitals do not cost very much. Treatment is given, and we hope that before very long it will only be necessary to keep these hospitals to take care of any case of leprosy that should turn up on ships coming to the country.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health branch-	.
198. Child and maternal hygiene, $45,381.
Mr. MacIN'NIS:	This is an important
subject. I note that the -estimate has been reduced by $14,000 since last year. It was not a large one last year, considering the importance of the work. Will the minister explain the reduction?	.
Brooke Claxton: This amount is given to the division of maternal and infant hygiene to make available the distribution of literature and information on this subject. I am not sure of the actual reason for the decline. It does not mean that there will be any interruption or reduction in the amount of the work in this field. I should like to point out that there is a supplementary estimate of $47,584 under this head. That is the explanation I was seeking when the Minister af Justice pointed it out to me. That has enabled us to extend the work. I think most hon. members are familiar with the work of Doctor Couture. His book on "The Canadian Mother and Child" has probably had a greater circulation than any other book in Canada with the exception of the bible, and it must have contributed considerably to the substantial reduction in the maternal and infant mortality rates which have occurred since 1926. Since 1926 the reduction is almost fifty _ per cent, which shows that substantial progress is being made.


Mrs. STRUM:: I have been impressed with the very good pre-natal care that the doctors are now giving, and also the post-natal advice which the young mothers get. In addition to the baby book, is any other work being done? The quality of the services has increased so much I suspect that the department is cooperating with the doctors in supplying the information.


Brooke Claxton: Yes, that is quite true. The results that have been achieved in the reduction of maternal and infant mortality have been due very largely to the information supplied, to the development of clinics and to the much greater percentage of mothers who receive pre-natal attention of one kind or another. The interesting thing, and in some

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way perhaps a most unfortunate thing, is that the improvement is reflected to a far greater extent in the cities than in the country districts. Our hope would be that with the institution of anything like a nation-wide system of health insurance, the benefits which now can be obtained in the cities by the mother for herself and her child, would be extended to the whole population. During the war a greater percentage of births took place in cities than previously, and that has largely contributed to the marked improvement in these figures. But while I say there' is a marked improvement, Canada still is not registering nearly'as high a record in these fields as she should, having regard to her high standard of living, and we hope to work with the provinces and other agencies to bring about a steady improvement.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health branch-
ZOO. Treatment of sick mariners, $329,488.
Angus MacInnis: For a moment I should
like to discuss a matter connected with this item. I do not think the minister can do anything about it just now, but I hope he will give it some consideration between now and the opening of the next session. The fund for sick mariners and marine hospitals is provided for in section 305 of part V of the Canada Shipping Act, and is raised in two ways. In the first place, there is a levy on ships entering Canadian ports, and to the extent that this does not pay for the service given, the remainder comes out of the consolidated revenue fund. I have not the figures with me; perhaps the minister has, but I am not going to ask him to look into that matter. This year it was drawn to my attention that ships plying between ports in the same province did not pay into this fund and that consequently employees on such ships were not entitled to these benefits. For instance, a ship on the Pacific coast plying between Prince Rupert and Vancouver does not pay into the fund. Neither does a ship plying between Victoria and Vancouver, but a ship going from Vancouver to Seattle does pay into it, and so does a ship crossing the strait from Prince Edward Island to New Brunswick.
I had prepared a bill to rectify this omission from the shipping act and to bring all ships under the same provision, so that all would pay dues and all crews would be eligible for the benefits of the fund. I found that such a bill would not be in order, since it would impose a tax and, could be introduced only by a member of the cabinet. I should like to ask the Minister of National Health and

Welfare if between now and the next session of parliament he would look into this matter with a view to amending this section in order to meet the condition I have mentioned. I had quite a discussion on the matter with the Minister of Transport, who, I, thought at first, would have control over it, but later on we found that he did not. I should like the minister's assurance that he will look into this, because I think such an amendment is desirable and would be quite equitable. I do not think I need say more, because I know there is nothing he can do now.


Brooke Claxton: I think I am right in
saying that the only vessels which are exempt from the requirement that they should pay into this fund are those engaged in the coasting trade within one province.


Angus MacInnis: And between Ontario and' Quebec.


Brooke Claxton: So that it is a matter of provincial jurisdiction. The 'other vessels, even though they may be engaged in the coasting trade, contribute on the basis of two cents per flat rate ton, I think, the same as ocean-going vessels. Whether or not additional vessels trading wholly within a certain province should be included would be a matter for discussion with the provinces.
This service is really extraordinary in extent. It provides emergency treatment and' hospitalization for a period of up to a year.. During the period under review the service actually treated 18,316 sick mariners. During the time Halifax was probably the greatest port in the world we had a boat of our own which would go through the convoys. If any ship in a convoy wanted the doctor to call, it would hoist the appropriate signal and our doctor would go aboard and give whatever treatment was required. In addition to that, sometimes we dealt with as many as three and four thousand cases each month in Halifax alone. The service was widely used and greatly appreciated. I shall be glad to discuss with the Minister of Transport the representation of the hon. member.


Mr. HAZEN:: The largest expenditure under this item is $250,000 for professional and special services, and the estimate last year was for the same amount. Will the minister tell us whether the total amount was expended last year, and would he give us a break-down of the figures for this year?


Brooke Claxton: That is under the treatment of sick mariners?


Douglas King Hazen: Yes, in the details on page 135 of the main estimates.

Supply-Health ana Welfare


Brooke Claxton: The expenditure during the period 1944-45 on professional and special services was $232,822.01; the unexpended balance was $17,177.99.


Douglas King Hazen: Could we get a break-down of the figures dor this year?


Brooke Claxton: How would you want a break-down?


Douglas King Hazen: Well, you must have a breakdown of some kind; you are spending approximately $250,000. To whom is it being paid, and where do these people live?


Brooke Claxton: I have lists here which 1 could give my hon. friend. It would take a long time to read them, because they are in great detail, showing payments to hospitals and to doctors in different localities in Canada. We pay hospitals at different rates for the hospitalization of sick mariners. Of course we have our own doctors at the major ports, who are in receipt of salaries, and in addition we pay other doctors on a fee basis. The lists run to five or six pages, and if my hon. friend would let me know in what way he would like a break-down I should be glad to send it to him.


Douglas King Hazen: I should like to see the five or six pages.


Brooke Claxton: I should be very glad to show them to my hon. friend.


Douglas King Hazen: I do not think it would be fair to ask the minister to read them just now.


Brooke Claxton: I shall be very glad to show them to the hon. member.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health branch-
202. Medical investigation division, $22,385.
Mr. BENTLEY:: I believe that a number of hon. members are keenly interested in the medical investigations being made by some people in connection with arthritis. We would be glad to have an assurance from the minister that this matter will receive serious attention. The amount appropriated for this investigation would not seem to be adequate for the purposes of investigating possible cures for the relief of suffering of people having this terrible affliction. From what we' have heard I believe that the minister has most humane qualities and that he would not overlook this matter. I would plead with him to give it his attention.


Brooke Claxton: Perhaps I should make it clear that, in our concept, research into medical conditions in Canada can best be conducted by hospitals and by institutes actively operating in those fields. It has never been
part of the federal function to do that research. However, the medical committee of the national research council has assisted in research projects along various lines. So far, we have not undertaken any of these matters ourselves, but it has been the policy of the government to coordinate all research under the national research council. As I said before the dinner recess, we are actively discussing with the national research council the possibilities of greater coordination and development. The hon. member's representations will certainly be considered.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health branch-
201. Industrial hygiene, $8,665.
John Ritchie MacNicol: What is the relationship between this vote and the provincial departments of industrial hygiene? We have really only one official, who operates in this matter. What does he do? What does the medical officer do under the industrial hygiene vote?


Brooke Claxton: To a great extent the industrial hygiene division of the department has to do with the improvement of standards of health in war industries, in consequence of actual contractual obligations they incurred with the federal government to do such work. Our officers work very closely with provincial government officers in trying to improve industrial hygiene standards in war plants, and also in some other plants that are federal in character.
Gradually we have transferred to some of the provinces both the laboratories and the staff. I have in mind particularly British Columbia where that has been accomplished. However, we have worked closely not only with the provinces but with the medical officers of the major corporations engaged in the field of industry. I believe that the results achieved were good. We hope that in consequence of this work, the work will be continued under provincial auspices. It is our desire to keep a small division operating, to cooperate with the provinces, but not nearly to the same extent as was done during the war.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Will the department have anything to do with medical industrial work in the Northwest Territories and the Yukon?


Brooke Claxton: If there is any industrial problem we certainly would be very glad to deal with it. However, so far as I know we have had no occasion to do so.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That would be undei federal authority, would it not?


Brooke Claxton: Yes, we have a division which would be equipped to deal with a condition of that kind, if such arose.

Supply-Health and Welfare


Mr. REID:: At this late stage of proceedings many of the most important items have to be glossed over on account of lack of time; and when one rises to speak he feels almost that he is guilty of wrongdoing. However, I rise at this time to suggest that the department might be well advised to take note of the medical investigations which have been carried out for some years by the United States in the Aleutian islands. It will take only a minute to tell the committee about this most important work. In 1911 a treaty was signed between the United States and various countries, including Canada, to protect the seals on the Pribyloff island. Following that year the' United States took charge of the island and established there a colony or village. The colony consisted of Aleuts, as they are known, who are a group of people of Russian extraction.
Since those years following the establishment of the colony the United States has sent medical men, dentists and nurses each year. It was my privilege only a few months ago to hear Doctor Sexton in a private interview relate what had been discovered. I believe that the discoveries are well worthy of investigation by the medical men in the Department of National Health and Welfare. It was found that as soon as the natives of the Aleutian islands ate the same kind of food as we were eating they lost their teeth, with the result that there is not an Aleut on the island today of twenty years of age or under who has his teeth. Their forefathers who ate fish and blubber, who never had milk or any kind of vegetables, had fairly white teeth, until they changed their diet.
The United States sent medical investigators, including some dentists. For a number of years they have been investigating conditions among the natives, with a view to learning the cause of their losing their teeth. It has been discovered that there is a certain element in food which is closely related to sunlight, and which in fact is one of the vitamins. Vitamins are now being put into the food, and experiments are being conducted to see if they cannot at least preserve the children's teeth.
These experiments are of such a nature and of such importance that I suggest our medical officers would be well advised to find out what the Americans have discovered through the years. Here is a group of people who were not in touch with so-called civilization and who, since they have been supplied with food by that civilization, have lost their teeth. It is most important that we find out the causes.

I have been told that those who are conducting the investigations are going to be up against the dentists, because they think they have discovered why the natives have lost their teeth. It is pointed out that the dentists do not want to have the inquiries conducted any further.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It would interfere with
private enterprise.


Humphrey Mitchell: I lost my teeth-and
not through private enterprise.


Thomas Reid: In some countries the state,
not private enterprise, looks after teeth. I believe that the department would be interested in this matter of the restoration or preservation of teeth.
It will be noted that Doctor Stefansson, one of our own medical men, has been conducting experiments along the same lines, and he has discovered that the Eskimos, who never tasted food as we understand it, and who have never had milk or vegetables, had good teeth.
I believe that this matter is serious enough to warrant our cooperating with the Americans who are making these investigations, learning the facts from them and, whether we tread on the toes of any of the professions, making that information public and available, so that, if possible, we may preserve the teeth of our children.


Mr. McKAY:: What study has been made
in connection with cancer? I believe this has been referred to by other hon. members. I am not quite sure what the nutrition service embraces, but perhaps the minister would give us some information about this disease.


Brooke Claxton: This nutrition service has provided the people of Canada since 1941 with information about sound nutritional practices. This is a small vote, as hon. members will see, but a great deal pf work has been done, largely through the officers of the department working with local committees, local health officers and provincial officers. From time to time campaigns of education have been organized, and general promotional activities have been carried on to create interest in nutrition. I think it is within the knowledge of everyone that during the war, despite the shortages which existed, the nutritional habits of the Canadian people improved almost out of recognition, just as they did in England and in some other countries. We have distributed hundreds of thousands of posters and pamphlets and carried on all kinds of educational activities, all of which have borne fruit. This is primarily a promotional and educational activity, but in addition some research work is being done in

Supply-Health and Welfare
conjunction with other government departments and other agencies and we hope that there will be some constructive results.
I should like to make just one observation on the comments of the hon. member for New Westminster with regard to diet. Mr. Stefansson, to whom he referred, used to be a Canadian. He had considerable experience in the far north, and in an article in the current number of the Atlantic Monthly he refers to the absence of caries in the mouths of people who live on a meat diet. However, he points out that it takes about seven pounds of meat a day to feed those people.


George Hugh Castleden: The thing that has attracted my attention is the small amount of this vote. It appears to me that the. Department of National Health and Welfare should recognize some responsibility in establishing high national standards of industrial hygiene. I am thinking of the mining industry where silicosis is fairly common. I understand that the governments in the different provinces have passed certain regulations with regard to this, but in some cases they are not lived up to. I thought one of the functions of this department might be to carry on inspection work to see that high standards of national industrial hygiene are lived up to.


Brooke Claxton: We have no jurisdiction.


George Hugh Castleden: Could not one of the functions of the department be that of pointing out to provincial governments whether or not their standards are being lived up to?


Brooke Claxton: I do not know whether the hon. member has gone into this extensively, but I would think the provinces would consider that they were up to the job of dealing with their own functions in this field. The dominion council of health has on it representatives from the different provinces, and perhaps that body could bring the matter to their attention and secure their support for some concerted action. I think that would be the right way to proceed, but as a federal government we certainly could not set standards for the provinces to follow in the field in which they have exclusive jurisdiction. All we can do is to help with and supplement the work they are doing and meet the needs as they express them to us. As a department we have not done anything with regard to silicosis, but the national research council has carried on certain work. Major Blaisdell, in conjunction with the province of Ontario and Lake Shore mine and certain other industries, has carried on a good deal of work in this
field, but that is a matter which is regarded as falling within the field of the workmen's compensation board of each province.


George Hugh Castleden: The health records
of the different provinces show that there is a need for greater enforcement of health measures in factories and industry. To-day we are dealing more and more with chemical production; we are carrying on more spray painting, and our factory production generally has increased a great deal. There may be no place constitutionally for us to go to a province and tell them that they are not living up to certain standards, but I think a branch such as this could point out that the standards are very low in some provinces and assist those provinces to raise them. The department could act more in an advisory capacity than try to enforce something. I understand that there are limitations, but it would be a nice thing to be able to say that, in Canada there are certain high standards which we are trying to maintain.


Brooke Claxton: I can only repeat that if we tried to step into provincial fields and told the provinces what they should do in matters of health, then the kind of cooperative activities that we want to carry on with them would be seriously jeopardized. We can get the provinces to sit down and discuss things in which we have a common interest, but I for one would not subscribe to any policy by which this government would dictate to the provinces what the standards should be. They have been dealing with industrial standards and the like for a great number of years; they have very good health departments, and while they may have varying standards, they also have varying needs. More and more they are working together and consulting with each other. We are very happy to work with them to do what we can to supplement their own work, but it is certainly no part of the role of this department to trespass on the proper functions of the provincial governments.


George Hugh Castleden: I am only advocating cooperation, not coercion. I think the standards are pretty low.


Mr. ADAMSON:: The question of silicosis comes up periodically. Silicosis is an industrial disease which can be elminated completely. Doctor Robson and the late Mr. James Denny of the Mclntyre-Porcupine mine have developed an aluminum therapy treatment which has proven to be a major step in the right direction. I understand that a foundation has been set up largely supported by the Mclntyre-Porcupine mine and other mines

Supply-Health and Welfare
in the district, as well as some in the Kirkland lake area. At one time silicosis was a problem in this industry, but with proper precautions and the use of aluminum therapy it can be completely eradicated. This is one of the great things that has been done by Canadian medicine in the last ten or fifteen years.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health .branch-
203. Nutrition service, $69,027.
Donald Methuen Fleming: Everything the department is doing in the way of promoting better [DOT]nutritional standards is well done; the money that is being voted is money well spent. The minister has said that the efforts of his department in this direction are bearing fruit, but I thought the purpose was rather to promote consumption of fruit.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health branch-
. %0-!(. Combating venereal disease-administration, $24,678.
Donald Methuen Fleming: This and the next two items have to do with measures to combat venereal diseases. Would the minister make a statement as to the progress being made in combating this dread disease. In particular, I would ask him to say something concerning the cooperative basis on which the dominion and the provinces are uniting their efforts in this field. I think the new approach to this problem is commendable in so far as it urges a frank and realistic approach and insistence on sound standards of education. At the same time I am bound to say that I do not approve furthering the cause by subsidizing attacks on religion, which is the foundation of all morals.


Mr. HERRIDGE:: I was going to ask the same question.


Brooke Claxton: For a number of years the federal government did give a considerable amount of assistance to the provinces, which was discontinued for some years and then was resumed in 1943. A venereal disease control division was established in the former department of pensions and national health, which was taken over by the new department. One of the first things I had to do as minister of the new department in October, 1944, was to approve a series of advertisements as part of a nation-wide campaign to develop interest in and1 direct constructive attention to this important subject. Hon. members will recall that this series of advertisements emphasized the four-sector front against V.D.-health, welfare, legal and moral. That was a four-

pronged attack on this subject which was developed by this department. While the frankness of the advertisements and radio publicity and the motion pictures that were shown from one end of Canada to the other might have been alarming to some people, there was not a word of criticism of them from 'any quarter. The result undoubtedly was a much more frank discussion of the whole subject and a much stronger attack on it from all sides.
During the war there has been close cooperation between the armed services and the provincial and local authorities controlling the disease. That was made possible through our having seconded to this department or its predecessor Colonel Williams, who was V.D. control officer of the army. With him came other officers from the armed forces, and we were fortunate in being able to establish with all the provinces the closest kind1 of cooperation. One of the developments in that field which was interesting and new was the reporting of contacts, and a great deal of useful work was done there. The result in figures is indicated in the report of the department, which shows that in the armed forces, the only branch of the population for which there are any really reliable statistics, there was a considerable decrease in the incidence of syphilis, particularly between 1940 and 1944, whereas one might have expected that there would be an increase. The problem is receiving continuous attention, and the department's division will continue to cooperate in the way in which it has been doing with the provinces and municipalities in this field.


William Gourlay Blair: I have only one criticism of this item. The amount should be double, if necessary, and more.


John Bracken: Might I ask the minister to outline the relative jurisdiction of the provinces and the dominion in this field and to state just what form of cooperation there is between the two?


Brooke Claxton: The provinces, of course, have primary jurisdiction in the field of health. Our cooperation in previous years has largely existed in two directions, first the providing of grants of money on a conditional grants-in-aid basis, and, second, the passing of criminal laws to try to stop the spreading of the disease. During the wTar, because there were over one million men and women in the armed forces, we had a definite interest at the dominion level, and we were fortunate in securing close cooperation from the provinces and the municipalities. Records were kept at Ottawa, and prosecutions were made in the

Supply-Health and Welfare
provinces by provincial agencies. In several provinces there was a V.D. control officer who cooperated continuously with the provincial and municipal authorities in each province and there was, I am happy to say, the closest possible cooperation at every possible level.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health branch-
206.	Distribution of drugs under regulations approved by the governor in council, $50,000.
William Gourlay Blair: Will the minister give an explanation of this item? There are no details given.


Brooke Claxton: It is to provide for the purchase of recognized and approved medications for the treatment of venereal diseases and for their distribution to the provinces. That is done now in virtue of an order in council, P.C. 75/5045, of July 18, 1945. The expenditures have been: in 1943-44, $45,654.32, and in 1944-45, $43,533.92. It provides for the distribution of the medications for treatment in the provinces on a basis which is worked out in cooperation with them.


William Gourlay Blair: Suppose the provinces require more than that?


John Alpheus Charlton: Does this include the distribution of penicillin to the various provinces?


Brooke Claxton: In the first instance it provided only for the distribution of arsenicals. With regard to penicillin for the treatment of venereal disease, I will make inquiry and give the information.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health branch-
207.	Grants to institutions assisting sailors, in the amounts detailed in the estimates, $2,600.
Douglas King Hazen: If I am in order, Mr. Chairman, before this item carries, I would ask about an item that- appears in the war appropriations at page 556 of Hansard, "Contribution towards health services at Halifax-total amount required from 1945-46, $30,000." What is that amount voted for and how is the money being used?


Brooke Claxton: That was a special vote given for health services in Halifax owing to the severe congestion there of troops and personnel of the navy and air force and merchant marine. This created a serious condition with possibilities of epidemics and so on, and this amount, which was a most unusual expenditure, the only one of its kind ever made by the federal government, was
designed to help the municipalities and health agencies cope with conditions that were likely to give rise to an epidemic.


Douglas King Hazen: Was it paid to the city of Halifax or to the board of health?


Brooke Claxton: I shall have to get the answer to that.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Welfare branch-	. .
209. Family allowance division-administration expenses, $2,392,070.
Mr. McMASTER:: Is this vote of $2,392,000 the total amount paid in connection with family allowances? Is any money paid by any other department, and, if so, how much?


Brooke Claxton: This covers the cost of administration in connection with family allowances in the Department of National Health and Welfare. In addition, there are expenditures of the Department of Public Works, Post Office and treasury.


William Alexander McMaster: Does the minister know those amounts?


Brooke Claxton: No. I do not have them The hon. member will have to get them froir the appropriate ministers.


William Alexander McMaster: Perhaps the ministe! could let me have that afterwards.


Brooke Claxton: Yes.


John Bracken: This is a service that covers the whole nation. Will the minister outline the way in which his organization is set up across Canada, and at the same time indicate what measure of cooperation there is with the provinces and to what extent, if any, departments of provincial governments are used in the administration of this service?


Brooke Claxton: With regard to the administrative set-up of family allowances, I should say we endeavoured from the start to have the most complete decentralization. Registrations were made at the office established by the family allowance administration in the capital of each province; from that office the payments are made, and with that office correspondence is ordinarily held. The extent of this can be readily understood when 1 inform hon. members-I hope it will surprise them-that we have engaged in the family allowance administration at Ottawa only seven persons, the rest of the work being done in the nine offices established in the provincial capitals.
Cooperation with the provinces takes several forms. In the first place, we have made an arrangement with every province whereby we
Supply-Health and Welfare

provide a recordak equipment and train staff to make microfilm photographs of the records of births and deaths of children under sixteen. That work is well advanced, and the films are sent to Ottawa where information from them is put on cards by the dominion bureau of statistics. From these card registers are produced containing a list of the children in each province, by years. That index is sent to our provincial office and applications for family allowances are checked against it. In that way we have obviated the necessity of requiring individual applicants for family allowances to provide evidence of the birth and existence of children.
Second, the Family Allowances Act, as hon. members know, provides that the children in respect of whom allowances shall be paid shall be children who are attending school, and we have construed that to mean attending school in accordance with the provisions in force in each province. In every province we have received the most whole-hearted cooperation in the enforcement of that provision.
I can tell of one case recently brought to my attention where the regional director of family allowances told me that in a certain district in a province where ordinarily only about ten per cent of the children went to school in September, this year it is ninety-five per cent. The provinces have not only cooperated wholeheartedly in this respect, but they have been exceedingly glad to do so because it has, generally speaking, reinforced their own provisions with regard to school attendance.
The third respect in which we have had cooperation from the provinces is in ensuring that the allowances are properly spent. We
do not propose to police the spending by investigating every home, but we hope to work out, either with the provinces or with agencies in each province, or by other means, arrangements whereby we shall have close cooperation in this direction. We have had conferences with child welfare organizations, children's aid societies and the like, and from those conferences we are gradually constructing the framework for relations with the provinces which we hope will secure complete cooperation in this respect.


John Bracken: Will the minister indicate the number employed in the administration of the service and their distribution among the provinces throughout the dominion?


Brooke Claxton: I have handy the establishment but not the actual staff, broken down by provinces for family allowances alone. I shall have to get that information and give it to the hon. gentleman.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Has the minister the
amount paid to each province?


John Bracken: Perhaps the minister
would put on Hansard the information I have asked for.


Brooke Claxton: I shall be glad to give
the distribution of staff by provinces and also to put on Hansard, if I may, the distribution of family allowance payments by provinces, together with the distribution of the number of children per family in each province, all for the month of October, 1945. These figures showing this kind of distribution are worked out for each quarter. We can show the totals for the provinces each month, but we have them broken down completely only once every quarter. I will put these tables on Hansard-.

DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE Family Allowances Division
Classification of Families by number of Children under 16 years of age, based on Family Allowance Payments
in October, 1945
Children per Family	i	2	3	4	5-	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	Total Families	Total ChildrenProvince-	. -	NUMBER	OF FAMILIES	P.E.I	4,320	2,965	1,809	1,135	699	453	260	132	65	30	6	3	11,877	30,293N.S	28,703	18,989	11,454	6,552	3,888	2,342	1,174	600	287	112	36	7	2	74,146	177,970N.B	19,816	13,790	8,760	5,707	3,809	2,377	1,493	820	429	181	61	18	3	57,264	153,419Que	111,105	88,012	58,410	39,473	26,167	17,368	11,337	7,225	3,960	1,946	728	210	37	7	2	365,987	1,058,690Ont	190,376	128,170	60,102	28,810	13,816	6,792	3,427	1,631	678	293	100	18	4	1	434,218	899,545Man	36,050	24,633	11,968	6,023	3,026	1,536	783	364	162	44	23	7	2	84,621	180,312Sask	37,412	29,679	16,970	9,123	4,730	2,640	1,324	633	324	107	43	17	2	2	103,006	242,711Alta	38,336	29,486	16,335	8,440	4,129	2,088	986	455	181	70	21	7	1	100,535	226,445B.C	46,252	33,007	13,506	5,476	2,199	951	439	175	65	25	5	1	102,101	196,704N.W.T. and Y...	289	201	139	93	54	27	10	7	820	2,038Total	512,659	368,932	199,453	110,832	62,517	36,574	21,233	12,042	6,151	2,808	1,023	288	51	10	2	1,334,575	3,168,187
Ottawa, 8th November, 1945.
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DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE Family Allowances Division
Statistics based on October, 1945, Family Allowance Payments
Province	Number of cheques issued	Number of families in pay	Number of children	Average allowance per family	Average allowance per child	Total disbursement, October, 1945Prince Edward Island	11,844	11,877	30,293	15-22	5-97	s 180,724Nova Scotia	74,070	74,146	177,970	14-37	5-99	1,065,667New Brunswick	57,245	57,264	153,419	15-96	5-96	914,078Quebec	366,080	365,987	1,058,690	16-83	5-82	6,160,887Ontario	432,984	434,218	899,545	12-86	6-21	5,584,078Manitoba	86,647	84,621	180,312	13-05	6-12	1,103,908Saskatchewan	103,054	103,006	242,711	14-28	6-06	1,470,796Alberta	99,999	100,535	226,445	13-61	6-04	1,367,858British Columbia	101,848	102,101	196,764	11-63	6-04	1,187,474N.W.T. and Yukon	821	820	2,038	18-90	7-60	15,502Total	1,334,592	1,334,575	3,168,187	14-27	6-01	19,050,972Ottawa, 8th November. 1945.	[DOT]


John Bracken: Did I understand the minister to say that he would give us information showing what expenditures for these services are chargeable to other departments?


Brooke Claxton: I shall be glad to get that. I have not it before me at the moment.


John Bracken: Did the minister undertake a moment ago to do that?


Brooke Claxton: Yes.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I just wish to congratulate the minister and the officials of his department on the commendable way in which family allowances have been administered. When family allowances were first suggested many people said that it would result in the establishment of a, bureaucracy. From every point in my constituency I have heard nothing but praise and commendation for the administration of this act.
I just wish to draw to the attention of the minister one case in my riding which I think should receive sympathetic consideration. It is that of a young girl who is within the age limit to receive the allowance. She is quite normal but suffers from a nervous affliction which requires her to attend a school in the United States, in Washington, I believe. It is the only school of its type in the western states. There is no school of the kind in Canada. Because this child has to go to that school and be absent from Canada over a certain period her parents are denied the allowance. I do wish the minister would give some consideration to cases of that kind.


Brooke Claxton: I am afraid that case would have to be dealt with by an amendment to the law. It certainly is excluded by the terms of the act to-day.


William Alexander McMaster: Could the minister give us some details of the item of $150,000 for publicity and information, and $150,000 for professional and special services? These items are to be found on page 137 of the estimates.
Mr. CLAX'l'ON: With regard to the item for publicity and information, it will be readily understood by hon. members that one cannot deal with all the people of Canada, which virtually we are doing in family allowances, without a considerable amount of expenditure on information. We had to expend quite a large sum in order to secure the registration that was made in the form in which it was made. Had we not spent so much we would have spent more on clerical staff to secure corrections. The money paid in family allowances payments is good in itself, both from the point of view of both the children and the family, and the economy of the country, but we consider that it is not enough just to pay this money out. We should like to do what we can to develop interest on the part of the parents to spend it in the best possible way for the benefit of their children. Therefore, from time to time, in conjunction with provincial and .local authorities, we intend to develop interest in various matters relating to the health and welfare of children. We believe that money spent in that way will

Supply-Health and Welfare
prevent the necessity of so much money being spent in policing. We therefore put in this considerable amount with the thought that it would be spent on films, exhibits, and in various other promotional activities, to draw to the attention of Canadian parents the possibilities of spending the money in the best interests of their children.


William Alexander McMaster: The minister has perhaps partly answered the first question. Did I understand him to say that even now he is spending the money on a programme to assist the parents in bringing up their children? If that is not the case, will he tell us whether this money has been spent, when was it spent and what proportion was spent before August 1, 1945, or, if he prefers, before July 1, 1945?


Brooke Claxton: I shall have to get that information.


William Alexander McMaster: I also asked a question about the item of $150,000 for professional and special services. Perhaps the minister can tell us how much was spent, how it was spent and when it was spent?


Brooke Claxton: I shall have to get that information.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: In dealing with social and welfare agencies an item has come to my attention which I think the minister really appreciates, since through me he has obtained some knowledge of it. I should now like to bring it to the attention of the committee. A Canadian soldier overseas married a British war widow who was the mother of children. In this particular instance the woman is the mother of three children born to a British father. She is now the mother of two children by the Canadian soldier. They are now living in my home city of Owen Sound. While the Family Allowances Act has made provision for the two children born of the Canadian father, who is still in the armed services overseas, it makes no provision for the three children born of the British father. As I have said before, the family allowances are intended for the welfare of the children of this nation. We hope to make them better citizens and give them greater opportunities than heretofore. While the act makes no provision for a case of this kind, I feel that it should be amended. I would urge the minister and his department to give serious consideration to that, because there must be many more similar cases where widows overseas with children born to a former marriage have married Canadian soldiers and have come to make their home in Canada. Some of them are now mothers of children born to Canadian soldiers, but there is no provision
for the children of the first marriage. I am not going to say that these children are wards of Canada, but they will be future citizens of Canada. I would therefore urge the minister to give serious consideration to changing the act so that these children may be included.


Brooke Claxton: I have taken note of the suggestion made by the hon. member for Grey North. As he indicates, it would require an amendment to the act. We shall certainly give consideration to that.
I can now answer the further question by the hon. member for Saint John-Albert with regard to the payment to Halifax. That $30,000 was given to compensate the city of Halifax for the expanded war population of many, many thousands of people which required special health measures to be taken by the population, as I indicated.
With regard to the question of the hon. member for High Park, in reference to $150,000 for professional and special services, may I say that none of that was expended this year. He also wanted to know about
S150,000	for publicity and information. The amount of $85,250.16 was expended to September 30, 1945.


Mr. HANSELL:: 
Ernest George Hansell: I am always willing to
oblige my hon. friend.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: Thank you very much, I
should like to ask the minister if, in the illustration I gave, the foster father were to legally adopt the children, that would bring them within the framework of the present act.


Brooke Claxton: No, I am afraid not.
They would have to reside here for three years before they become eligible.


Ernest George Hansell: I should like to congratulate ' the minister on something else. The hon. member for Kootenay West congratulated him upon the administration of his department, saying that he had received the highest compliments and no^ criticisms. I have no criticism to offer in connection with the administration of any department. There is one difference between the Department of National Health and Welfare and the other departments, and it is simply this. In this case the public are on the receiving end. Of course, when a lady goes to the post office and gets a cheque for $12 or $16, she likes this depart ment. The others are not so fortunate.
Supply-Health and Welfare

I wish to congratulate the minister on being able to pilot his estimates through without any advisers sitting in front of him. This question has been in my mind a good deal. I have no objection to advisers coming in; they are very fine looking gentlemen who sit there trying to look as wise as possible. I do not suppose anything can be done about it, but I am going to suggest that when advisers come into the house and take their places in front of a minister, their names be recorded in Hansard as advising that minister. As I say, I have no objection to them, and of course the minister must take final responsibility for the answers he gives. I do not know that I am so much concerned with, this in connection with the estimates as I am when a bill is being piloted through. I like to know the names of those who are putting the answers in the mouth of the minister. While I congratulate the minister on this, I know his department is not so complicated as some ot the others, and I mean to cast no reflection on the other ministers.
Might I offer one suggestion to the ministers of the crown as they are putting through their estimates. I suggest that they do not attempt to make long speeches, which only hold up the house. If they sit there and look just as dumb as possible they will get their estimates through much more quickly.


William Gourlay Blair: This item shows an amount
of $1,534,1)00 for temporary assistance in connection with administration. Does the minister anticipate that the cost of administration will be lowered? While I am on my feet I should like to ask a second question. What is the attitude of the minister toward children in public institutions, in regard to family allowances?


Brooke Claxton: In regard to the item
for administration, we do not expect to spend the full amount provided in the estimates for this year, and we hope that the cost of administration may be even further cut down. When the bill was being debated in 1944 we estimated that the cost of administration might be from one to two per cent of the total outlay in respect of family allowance. I am happy to be able to say that the figure is certainly close to one per cent, and in another year we hope to be able to get it even lower. This item was provided on this basis, because we had to do a job which involved registering all children [DOT] bom during the past fifteen years; that is we had to achieve fifteen times our normal peak before we ever began, and that required a very large temporary force which we still have with us. The amount provided was $1,534,070. So

far, up to September 30, 1945, we have spent $323,491.79, so that at that time we were still well within the amount budgeted for.


William Gourlay Blair: My second question was;
what is the minister's attitude toward children in public institutions, in regard to family allowances?


Brooke Claxton: That is provided for in part by the act, under which payments are made to parents who are responsible for the care and control of children, and which states that an institution shall not be considered a parent. Then, in accordance with the act regulations were enacted, and the question put by my bon. friend is dealt with there. Perhaps I had better send him a copy of the regulations. There are a great many different types of institutions in the provinces of Canada, and generally speaking I think it can be said that we do not regard a child who is in an institution as a child in respect of whom an allowance is to be paid under the Family Allowances Act. That is in accordance with the act; but if the child is in a foster home and the cost of the child's care is contributed to by a children's aid society or some similar organization, then we shall regard that organization as a parent and make the payment to it.


William Alexander McMaster: Did I understand the minister to say that they do not make a payment where a child is in an institution?


Brooke Claxton: That is right.


William Alexander McMaster: Then arising out of my other two questions, the minister gave me the amount spent on publicity and information up to September 30. Apparently he has the details there. Could he tell us the amount spent on publicity up to July 1? At the same time couldi he tell us what kind of professional and special services are anticipated to be required for which the sum of $150,000 is provided?


Brooke Claxton: The professional assistance for which the amount of $150,000 is provided is in the form of investigations, supervision, welfare workers and similar work of that kind. We are beginning to make fairly heavy expenditures in this connection, but we have not come anywhere near the sum mentioned. That is the type of assistance we mean, social workers and the like.


William Alexander McMaster: And has the minister the amount spent on publicity up to July 1?

Supply-Health and Welfare


Brooke Claxton: Yes. We spent on publicity and information up to July 1, the sum of $2,583.32.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Miscellaneous grants-
211. Grant to Canadian national committee for mental hygiene, $10,000.
Agar Rodney Adamson: I wish to ask the minister a question not definitely related to this institution but in connection with mental hygiene generally. In the press to-day I saw the rather alarming statement that Canada had the highest incidence of insanity of any country in the world. I am merely saying what I saw in the press. I know it is extremely high; in fact it is one of the serious problems we have to face. Could the minister give us a statement as to the mental health of the nation? I know this is extremely difficult, but perhaps he could tell us the number of patients in these institutions, what is being done and some statistics in that connection.
I do not know whether this has been said before, but I should like to go on record as commending very strongly the deputy minister of national health and welfare. I believe the address given by General Chisholm before the Alanson White Foundation of Washington, D.C., was one of the finest pieces of original research that has ever been done. I wish to commend the minister and the department, and to say how extremely lucky we are in Canada in having in the public service of our country a man who is capable of such original and useful thought. I wanted to say that in the committee. I do not know whether it has been said before, but I should like to go on record in that way.
Could the minister make a brief statement in connection with the mental health situation?


Brooke Claxton: I am afraid I have not any definite information which I could give at this time. However, I should certainly doubt the accuracy of the news report to which the hon. member has referred.


Agar Rodney Adamson: It was in to-day's issue of the Ottawa Journal.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Miscellaneous grants-
220. Grant to Canadian Red Cross Society,
Donald Methuen Fleming: What are the minister's views respecting a request for a grant from the Canadian dental hygiene council? I understand that this organization has the endorsation of the minister and his department and, if I am not mistaken, was at one time in receipt of a grant from the old department of pensions
and national health. It is the only voluntary body in the dental health field carrying on educational work.
We find here a number of grants provided for organizations doing exemplary work in the general field of health, but I find that none of these operate in the field of dental health. Would the minister indicate the attitude of the government in respect of the request by this organization for a grant? Perhaps having endorsed its work, the minister might have some views which would be of interest to the committee.


Brooke Claxton: As the hon. member for Eglinton implied, I feel that this organization is doing admirable work. It is one of a number of professional organizations with which, I am glad to say, the department has the closest possible relationship. I shall be very glad indeed to make representations to my colleagues with regard to a grant in the future.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health branch-
527. Health insurance studies, $10,187.
Donald Methuen Fleming: What assistance did the department retain in this connection? I take it that the, item has reference to studies in connection with proposals submitted to the dominion-provincial conference, and- I believe that the committee would like to know what assistance outside the department was required in the preparation of those studies.


Brooke Claxton: In connection with
preparation for the conference the department set up committees dealing with health matters and with welfare matters. Those two committees, over which the two deputy ministers presided, consisted exclusively of officers in the government from the Department of Finance, the bureau of statistics, and other departments concerned1. They were entirely interdepartmental, and the department spent nothing on outside services when making preparations for the conference.
Mr. Alexander Skelton was secretary of the conference committee, set up under the cabinet. On the committee were a number of experts in various fields, chiefly financial, whose services we were able to obtain. However, the department spent nothing on any additional studies.
This item is to set up a new directorate which would have to do with health planning, particularly as it is related to health insurance. A position has been advertised and filled, and the officer is now engaged in his work.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Health and Welfare
[Stage Direction]
National health branch-
529. Civil service health division, $145,750.
John Bracken: What service is the department attempting to give under this item?


Brooke Claxton: Under the act which
created the department there was a fairly important change from the previous legislation which defined the functions of the old department of pensions and national health. The change was made when the department was set up in 1944, and it gave the Department of National Health and Welfare positive responsibility for measures which might improve the health of the civil servants of Canada.
In May, 1945, I was authorized by the government to announce a programme involving an expenditure of $328,000 for the first year to provide a number of health services for civil servants. While they might be subdivided under many heads, I believe I can put them under a few.
In the first place the programme involved an examination before entrance into the civil service. This included X-ray examination for tuberculosis;
Second, periodic examinations;
Third, emergency service for people who suddenly became ill while at work;
Fourth, the development of educational activities so as to bring to the attention of the civil service of Canada the need for taking proper health measures;
Fifth, provision of advice with regard to health matters. Without giving actual continuous service, we would provide expert counsellors who could advise as to the kind of doctor to be consulted, and as to what should be done under certain conditions and,
Sixth, the establishment of sanitary standards, health standards, standards regarding working conditions, lighting, lavatory accommodation, rest rooms, and the like, and the assurance of cooperation with other government departments in giving this service.
In other words, this programme was designed to give the civil servants of Canada the kind of service which any good employer now gives his employees. That was announced in May of this year, and only last week we were fortunate enough to secure the services of Lieutenant-Colonel ft. G. Ratz, to head this new division. This gentleman is experienced in public health work, has had experience along those lines in the army, and is now starting to get to work. Progress depends now on space and staff becoming available with which to proceed. I repeat that you have to give the civil service of Canada the same kind of health service which any good employer now gives to his employees.


John Bracken: What is the total appropriation per year for this service? The minister mentioned the sum of $348,000, but I notice that this vote is for only $145,750.


Brooke Claxton: This was announced in
May, and the estimate of the cost for a full year was $328,000. We realized that we could not institute the service this year until quite late, if at all, and then only partly, so that the supplementary is for a smaller amount. We shall not come near to spending the supplementary vote.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health branch-
531. Mental health division, $16,232.
John Bracken: Could the minister give the total number of civil servants now in the employ of the government?


Mr. MARTIN:: The total is 143,000.


John Ritchie MacNicol: What is the relation between votes 531 and 211?


Brooke Claxton: Vote 211 provides for a grant to the national committee for mental hygiene, a voluntary association, and vote 531 provides for salaries and costs of administration of a new division of the department which has just been created to deal with mental health in the same way as the other divisions deal with their separate fields of tuberculosis, venereal diseases and so on.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am in favour of this
new department because I believe it is a step in the right direction. How will it work with the organization of which Doctor Hincks is the head?


Brooke Claxton: I am certain that it will work very closely with him and also with the provinces. We find at the technical level of the department that there can be close cooperation with the experts in the various fields in the provinces and also that the federal government can exercise a useful function in just bringing them together and coordinating their work, exchanging information and getting them to establish new standards and the like. This is a field which uses more beds than any other and it is of vast importance to us all.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am sure that the Canadian national committee for mental hygiene, of which Doctor Hincks is head, will be able to assist the minister materially in his work in connection with this new division.


Eric Bowness McKay: Is any appropriation being
made for prison welfare associations such as the John Howard societies, and in particular the prisoner aid and welfare association in

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Montreal? I understand that society has to do with certain aspects of mental hygiene.


Brooke Claxton: If there is such an appropriation it would come under the Department of Justice.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Welfare branch-
555. National council on physical fitness-administration expenses, $29,571.09.
Howard Charles Green: Will the minister explain
this item?


Brooke Claxton: This is an item of
$53,005.27 to replace an amount paid to the provinces under the National Fitness Act from the national fitness fund totalling S23,434.18. When this amount is deposited in the open account the fund will be restored to its original amount of $225,000 for grants to the provinces in accordance with the act. It is also to provide $10,000 for publicity purposes and to replace an amount expended for administration purposes under the National Fitness Act from the national physical fitness fund of $19,571.09. When this amount is deposited in the open account the fund will be restored to the original amount of $25,000 for administration expenses. Those two sums of $25,000 and $225,000 will make up a total of $250,000 which is provided for under the National Fitness Act.


Howard Charles Green: I understood that we could discuss on the civil estimates any war appropriation estimate. I do not know whether the minister is proposing to call the old age pension item or not. I believe that now comes under his department although it is listed as being under the Minister of Finance. I have no intention this evening of dealing with the question of an increase in old age pensions or the lowering of the age limit, because those points were discussed earlier in the session. However, I should like to ask the minister whether his department is taking any steps to bring about a change in the regulations under the Old Age Pensions Act. I realize that the questions of an increased pension and the lowering of the age limit are being deferred until the conclusion of the dominion-provincial conference, but there is no reason why some steps should not be taken in the meantime to bring about a change in the regulations.
It takes time to do these things, and in the case of our older citizens, time means so much. They have to be seventy years of age to come under this act, and when one gets along to that age, every day counts. It is a tragedy that there has been such a long delay in getting these provisions through. The present 47696-227J
regulations are too harsh; I think the minister will agree with me on that. The result is that in Canada many of these people are not able to establish their eligibility for pension. If the minister will refer to page 37 of the Dominion of Canada proposals made to the dominion-provincial conference he will see it is stated that only about forty per cent of all persons of seventy years of age and over are able to establish eligibility for old age pension. Doctor Marsh in his report of two years ago- and I refer the minister to page 70-states that in Great Britain about eighty per cent of the people over seventy years of age are able to qualify, either for old age pensions or similar assistance. He goes on to point out why there is this difference and traces the cause right back to the harshness of the regulations. This harshness is also dealt with in the proposals made by the dominion government to which I have referred; the minister will find this at page 38. The dominion is now proposing that for the ages sixty-five to sixty-nine there shall be a joint plan, the dominion paying half and the provinces paying half; it is admitted on page 38 that certain changes will be necessary, designed to liberalize the conditions under which the assistance is given.
Further down on the same page it is proposed that residence in Canada should be required only for a period of twenty years since the age of eighteen, including a period of three years immediately preceding the date of application for a pension. That, of course, is far more liberal than the present regulation.
It is also proposed that the maximum payment be reduced by the amount of the applicant's personal income, if any, in excess of $125 per annum, but the submission goes on to say:
In computing the income of the recipient for purposes of this means-test, moneys received from other sources not for the recipient's own use to be excluded. The pension would only be reduced to the extent that the pensioner had outside sources of personal income for his or her own use.
I presume that would mean that there would not be such drastic restrictions as there are at the present time for example, that pensioners might be allowed to own their homes without having a reduction made in the pension on that account. It goes on to say:
The existing requirement that payments made by way of old age pension must be recovered where possible from the estate of the recipient *after his death would be abolished.
These proposals are contained in the dominion government's own brief. The minister is aware, by the way, that Doctor Marsh goes into much greater detail. Is there any
Sup-ply-Health and Welfare

reason why steps could not be taken now to work out an easing of the regulations? It will have to be done sooner or later. It is only a matter of delay and that delay will work a hardship on many of these older people. I suggest to the minister that one of the most useful undertakings which his department could handle now would be to bring about a revision of the regulations to ease their restrictiveness.


Brooke Claxton: 1 should like to make this comment with regard to the observation of the hon. member for Vancouver South that only forty per cent of Canadians who are within the age group qualify for pension on the means-test, while the percentage is very much higher in Britain. That might mean a greater stringency of regulations or it might mean that there is a very much higher average of savings on the part of the people of this country, or a higher degree of independence.


Howard Charles Green: The minister knows that the findings of Doctor Marsh are along the same line.


Brooke Claxton: Section 19. 2 of the Old Age Pensions Act provides:
No regulation by reference to which any agreement with a province has been made shall be altered except with the consent of such province or in accordance with the provisions of the regulations to which it has agreed.
So that any alteration of the regulations can only be made by agreement with the provinces. I am very glad to tell the hon. member, however, that we have already inaugurated discussions with the provinces alongside the work of the dominion-provincial conference, and their welfare officers have accepted our suggestion t/hat early in the new year we should meet together to discuss administrative problems relative to old age pensions. We hope at that time to remedy some of the difficulties to which the hon. member has referred.


Howard Charles Green: That is very good. In view of the nature of the act the lead has to come from the dominion and I am very glad that that lead is being given.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
230. National film board, including the motion picture bureau, $810,965.
Supplementary estimates, 1945-46 537. National film board, including the motion picture bureau, further amount required, $335,-4)00.
John Ritchie MacNicol: This is one branch of the department which I believe can do a great work for Canada, particularly if the films to be sent out of Canada in exchange for the

films of other countries cover Canada from ocean to ocean and from the international boundary to the Arctic. There is no other country in the world that can rival Canada's scenery and resources all along the line. I am not going to delay the committee to talk about them because it is too late in the session. I hope that at another session this vote will come down early so that members from every part of Canada can tell of the wonders of their own part of the country, not only the natural wonders and its resources but also Canadian industries, all of which could be portrayed to the great advantage of Canada, as well as everything that enters into industry in this country by way of productive employment. I wish to register my strong support for this particular branch, and I hope that when reconstruction is under consideration the minister will persuade the Minister of Public Works, under whose department I presume it would come, to put up a modem up-to-date building to house this branch. I was in the film building, if it is still the same one, in which the records are kept, but what is required to-day is a steel and concrete fireproof building to contain and preserve these priceless films that have been taken of Canada from one end to the other.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I am not going into detail at this stage. I have in the past been extremely critical of the national film board on account of their documentaries and the propaganda they contained, but I have not seen one in the last year, so that I am not going to say anything about them. What are the new functions of the national film board? Are they to make films, for instance, to assist the immigration department by showing life in Canada, so that people who wish to come here may have an idea of what life here is really like? Are documentaries to be provided for showing in other countries to attract tourists to Canada? It seems to me there is a tremendous opportunity in the film board to show Canada abroad in a way that no other media can do.
I said, Mr. Chairman, that if the national film board is going to undertake the production of major films as well as documentaries we should have more information as to what the board proposes to do. I suggest that if you are considering the production of films of major length it would be wiser for us to know what the policy is. Are you going to compete with the private producer of films, or are you going to cooperate with the commercial studios? And is it the intention of the national film board to establish, or is it thought possible to establish a moving-picture industry in

Supply-Health and Welfare
Canada? If you are going to produce commercial films-and I hope you are not-then I suggest that you might consider the filming of "The White Tower", if the rights have not already been sold. That would afford us a wonderful opportunity to show our national parks in such a film, and Mount Assiniboine would suit very well as the locale for such a picture. Would the minister tell us what the forward policy of the film board is? I have had the report, but it does not say specifically.


Douglas King Hazen: If this supplementary estimate and the amount that is voted in the estimates are expended this year by the national film board the cost to the people of the country will be $1,145,965. That is a large amount of money, and the question I ask myself is:	Is this expenditure worth
while? The question I ask the minister is: Does he think this expenditure is worth while? Does the board play an important part in the lives of the people of this country? Does it play an important part in the lives of members of parliament? It plays no part in my life, and I do not think it plays much part in the lives of most of the members of this assembly. So far as I know it plays no part, or if it does it plays only a small part, in the lives of the people of my constituency. I doubt if the government can carry on a film business anj' better than it could carry on a weekly newspaper. I suggest, therefore, that the whole matter should be very carefully looked into before further expenditures are made. I understand that recently the Royal Canadian Air Force asked the national film board to make a film for its women's division dealing with hygiene, that the national film board made that film and charged the R.C.A.F. over $20,000 for it, and that when the R.C.A.F. got the film they were so dissatisfied with it that they refused to use it, although they had to pay the bill. They, therefore, went to a private concern in Montreal and got them to make a film which they found satisfactory and which cost them much less. Can the minister tell us something about the film prepared by the national film board for the R.C.A.F., whether or not it was used by the R.C.A.F., whether or not the R.C.A.F, refused to use it and afterwards got a film that was satisfactory from a private concern in Montreal.


John Ritchie MacNicol: When I spoke I had in mind films sent outside Canada, not those shown within the country. On one of my last trips to the United States I saw some of these Canadian films shown there, and from what I saw I took it that the intention was to
show our American cousins the marvellous tourist attractions we have, and to business people there the opportunities for investing money in Canada. I was not thinking of films shown here but of what it says, international, or outside the country.


Alistair McLeod Stewart: I would say this about the national film board. I think it is more than an organization; it has now become an institution and one which I wish to see perpetuated and enlarged. The national film board has brought great credit to Canada outside this country and has been of great service to Canada within it. One hon. member asked, does it play an important part in our lives? I think it does, and I am speaking for our group when I say that it plays an important part in the rural areas of western Canada. It is an invaluable source of adult education, and from that point of view alone we should like to see it continued and, indeed, expanded. The hon. member said that it played no part in his life. I suggest to him respectfully that that is his own fault. It has played quite a large part in my life.
I have gone frequently to the film board headquarters and rented films at the very reasonable rate of twenty-five cents a roll on all subjects under the sun, and have shown them in my constituency to all sorts of people. The board has a great part to play in this country, and I should like the minister to spare a few minutes to tell us what the future policy envisages for it.


Brooke Claxton: The hon. member for Davenport spoke of the desirability of our using films to spread knowledge of Canada abroad, a work in which he himself has been engaged for a great number of years. I venture to say that no agency of the Canadian government has done more to spread knowledge of Canada abroad as the film board. In the year under review it produced a total of 308 films, and I would ask hon. members who are interested in the subject to compare that production, from the point of view both of quality and of quantity, with the production of any other country on the face of the earth. If they do so they will find that we are second to none in any regard1.
The national film board has come to have a reputation abroad which puts us virtually second to none in the documentary fieLd. I have had the honour of representing Canada in some international conferences, for example, of UNRRA and the international labour organization, and at all these the national film board is there showing films to the representatives of other nations-films of Canada
Supply-Health and Welfare

and films of their own countries which our film board is aceumulating-and knows how to show. On more than one occasion the national film board has been chosen as the agency, the sole agency, of the international authority itself, as being the best in the whole worldi to do the job. The national film board was engaged by UNNRA to do the job of producing a film about its work, and that film was shown throughout the world, just as most of the national film board's work is shown to-d'ay.
These 30S films I have mentioned are divided into forty-six films of the national film programme, 153 in the war information programme, and 109 for other government departments. I do not suppose any agency of the government has so many connections with other government departments as the film board. It receives orders for films and produces them in cooperation with government departments. We think it produces them as well and perhaps better than any private agency could do it, and it makes a Canadian service continuously available to the government and to the people of Canada. It is with some pride that I speak of this service and' the way in which its reputation has been, built up through the years in consequence of the work that has been carried on, particularly under the leadership of John Grierson, who is known throughout the world as probably the leader in the field of documentary films, and who received the highest award, an Oscar, in the United States, a year ago.
The record is known to the people of every other country, and it is high time that it became known to the people of Canada. More and more people in Canada are beginning to recognize that here is one field of culture, one field of art in. which we can take second place to no other country.
These pictures cover a great range of subjects. The most important series that was shown probably was that of "The World in Action". That series of films produced one each month and was shown as a commercial picture for which we received payment. It was shown in six thousand theatres in the United States and in a great number of theatres in the United Kingdom, in Central and South America as well as in Australia and South Africa. Another series "Canada Carries On", was perhaps the greatest single vehicle for carrying to the Canadian people and to others knowledge of what we ourselves were doing during the war. That was also shown in Canada, the United States and other countries. These two films were shown to an estimated audience in Canada of two million people a week. We get into very 
large figures in this field. That is the potential audience at the theatres in which these films are shown.
I have here, and if necessary and desirable, I shall put on Hansard a list of the 308 films produced during the period under review. A great number of these films are produced in both English and French. A great number were produced in Spanish and Portuguese. I venture to say they have been, the greatest single vehicle for carrying knowledge and information of Canada to other countries.
As part of its work the national film board has also been the greatest single agency in Canada to produce still pictures, pictures of national events. It has had its own photographers on our battle fronts, and they have made available through the ordinary means of distributing information photographs and stills in a very large volume, up to 50.000 a year.
This activity also includes the preparation of graphics of all kinds, educational films, films for the Department of Agriculture and so forth. We have had a great number of rural circuits. They also show films on industrial circuits. The rural circuits and the industrial circuits are means whereby information about farm life and ways of improving the amenities of farm life and farm techniques as well as entertainment are made available to hundreds of thousands of our population. Similarly the industrial circuits make available films on industrial techniques. Some of them are just as practical as any employer could possibly introduce with regard to one element or another suitable to the audience. They also endeavour to spread from one group to another knowledge of the other group, how they are living, how they are working and that they are interdependent. That is all part of the effort to give Canadians information of their own country, a realization of what we are doing and what we aim to do. It is a great Canadian enterprise. On that account I hope that it will get the vote which is required here.
With regard to the question of the hon. member for Saint John-Albert, I must say that the only information I have is that the film to which he refers was probably produced for the air force by an agency other than the film board. If it was found unsuitable that was not their fault.


Mr. McIVOR:: I should just like to express appreciation on behalf of the tourist bureau of Fort William of the splendid service rendered by the film board. We have a cave surrounded by hard rocks and pretty well covered by evergreens. On a summer evening several hundred people meet in that cave,

Supply-Health and Welfare
tourists from all over the United States. One man expressed himself in words like these: We did not know that you had such a beautiful and gorgeous country as Canada.


Alistair McLeod Stewart: If the film board is to become really efficient and adequate a great deal will depend upon the number of projectors which are available for groups, clubs and associations. I offer this suggestion to the minister:	Would it be possible for the film board to obtain from the services these projectors which are declared surplus, with a view to selling them to clubs and associations which will use them for the benefit of the people?


Brooke Claxton: I shall be indeed glad to call the hon. member's suggestion to the attention of War Assets Corporation and of the Minister of Reconstruction under whose department that matter falls. We have had a good deal of correspondence and discussion over this, and I shall be glad to see that the hon. member's representation in this regard is again called to the minister's attention.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Does the board itself not rent films?


Brooke Claxton: Yes, but the hon. member for Winnipeg North was talking about projectors and making them available. The armed forces have a great number of projectors which they used for the job of instructing the forces with films that were prepared either by them or by us for them. Some of those projectors have become surplus. The question is, should they be made available for educational activities or to the film board, and how will they be disposed of? That is a matter for active discussion. I shall be glad to carry to the Minister of Reconstruction the representations of the hon. member.


John Oliver Probe: I should like to associate
myself with the compliments that are being paid at the moment to the minister and to the national film board, but I have had brought to my attention a couple of criticisms which may not be justified. For that reason I should like the minister to comment on them. The first is that an undue number of films have been passed out in languages other than those which are considered official in Canada. Will the minister comment on the correctness or otherwise of that criticism?


Brooke Claxton: I understand that the
only films distributed in Canada are distributed in English and French. The films that have been sent out in Spanish and Portuguese are sent to the countries where these languages would be useful.


John Oliver Probe: I understand that perfectly,
but I understood that a considerable number of films were sent out in languages other than the four mentioned.


Brooke Claxton: Three years ago we made a film in Ukrainian for distribution in Canada.


George Hugh Castleden: Is it still available?


Brooke Claxton: I think it would be.


Gladys Grace Mae Strum: I wish to compliment the
minister on the imagination and sympathy which he has shown in dealing with this branch of education. I was pleased when I found that the film board came under his department, although I only became aware of that fact this week. Twice this week I have had the chance of seeing some films the board has produced, together with films produced in other countries, and I wish to say that what the minister said is quite true; the films our own board has made equalled or excelled in technique those from other countries, and I was very glad to see the skill that has gone into the making of those pictures.
In this country, where we have so much space, I believe geography is against us; and in the building of national understanding and unity I think the film is going to play a greater and greater part. I believe it is one of the matters about which we cannot afford to be niggardly, in which we must invest generously, because it is one of the greatest possible mediums for drawing this country together; and now educators are telling us that visual education is by far more effective than any other type. But I think our films can make their greatest contribution in promoting the sort of rural communities that will attract and hold our young people. We have seen those young people drift away from the country, leaving only those older people who perhaps have a greater vision of what life can mean. But if we are to attract these young people back to the farms; if we are to have the sort of culture that we deserve and that these young people are capable of developing in our rural communities, we must make much greater use of this effective medium.
Again I wish to compliment the minister on his sympathy and vision and on the very fine job this branch is doing.


William Alexander McMaster: It would seem that the realism of the east is now up against the idealism of the west. Perhaps we do not go to theatres in the east often enough to appreciate these things. I was glad to hear that the hon. member for Qu'Appelle was able to go to the theatre in Ottawa, because I really have never had time since coming
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here, and perhaps I have missed something. This is the position as we see it. We may not be interested in films, but we cannot understand why this amount should be increased by a million dollars. The minister has said that some 153 war pictures were produced, either this year or in preceding years, and no doubt those films were shown to the soldiers overseas. I do not know, but I would suppose that to be the case. What is his method of distribution here in eastern Canada? Are these films available to certain clubs and so on, or are they shown over regular circuits of moving-picture theatres? It strikes me that this amount, instead of getting larger, should be getting smaller, and that unless there is some method of distributing these pictures so that they are shown in the ordinary theatres they are not accomplishing the purpose intended, because my experience in the east has been that these private film shows receive very little attention.


Ernest George Hansell: I am afraid the minister
has let me down a bit in the remarks I made a while ago; however, I imagine it is all right. I do not feel that I can wax quite as enthusiastic in support of the minister, with respect to the national film board, as some hon. members have done to-night. I have no particular objection to the remarks of the hon. member for Winnipeg North, although I would not be quite so enthusiastic about it and personally I would have modified my remarks if I had thought along the same line.
I agree more or less with the remarks of the hon. member for Saint John-Albert. It is said that the national film board can be a great institution for education. Well, I agree with that, but I do not agree that the educationalists are always right. There are some sciences in the realm of education that cannot oe contradicted. Those sciences are always right, and I have in mind the science of .mathematics and the science of chemistry, for instance. \ ou do not go wrong in those sciences. But when it comes to such matters as political science, political economy and matters of economics, then the educationalists can be wrong, and they have been wrong.
I believe the national film board has a function to perform. I am not going to say that it should be done away with, or anything of the kind. During the war years I believe it diid a good job along certain lines. I have seen some pictures, for instance, dealing with the matter of inflation, that were very good; they were needed at the time, and, I believe, did something in behalf of Canada by helping to curb a little spending and showing people what the dangers of inflation could be. If films are sent abroad in an effort to advertise 
our country, that is an admirable thing. But I am going to throw out a warning, and I do not want it to be suggested or thought that I have a suspicious mind. I am going to say that an institution such as the national film board can become a great power for propaganda. It does not make any difference that the officials in charge say, no, they are going to remain strictly neutral in matters relating to political issues. That is all right; I quite suppose they try to be neutral. But it does not necessarily follow that because certain propaganda does not have a party tinge, therefore it is not political. There are world issues of a highly political nature, not because they favour one party as above another, but because they are issues on which all do not agree. When a medium such as films is used for the purpose of propagandizing a certain view when quite a substantial body of opinion [DOT] is against that view, then I say we need to sound a warning and suggest that the money of the taxpayers should not be used for that sort of thing.
There is another point to it. It is difficult to say where the line should be drawn between what might constitute government propaganda and what might constitute an educational programme. I have enijoyed the films "Canada Carries On". I am not going to say that the film board should not continue in that work. Personally, I do not think it affects me very much; but I will suggest that, no matter what government is in office, there are certain axioms of psychology which cannot be avoided', namely the psychology that when people see "Canada Carries On" there is left within their minds, even though it be their subconscious minds, the thought that the government is doing a great job. I say, therefore, that the national film board should be careful. I believe they are, and I am not going to criticize them harshly in this respect. But I do say that when they issue films of a nature to propagandize some particular policy, they are dealing with matters which I do not think are within their functions as a government film board.
I received through the mail the other day- and I have no doubt other hon. members received similar copies-a certain pamphlet.
I do not intend criticizing its contents. This pamphlet is entitled "World or War", and I have read it with considerable interest. It contains the information that copies may be ordered from the United Nations Society in Canada, and that this pamphlet has been issued by the Canadian information service, and designed by the national film board at Ottawa.

Supply-Health and Welfare
On the inside I find some detailed information respecting the united nations organization which, it says, is open to all peace-loving nations. On its face it looks good. But who knows that the present policy of our government, in following along the lines of the united nations organization, is following along the right line. I am not going to say whether it is or not, whether that decision is the right one.
I suppose the national film board is just as safe under the present minister's administration as it would be under any other; but I do know this, that personally I do not agree with the minister's foreign policy. I see things in a different light, and perhaps it is only natural for me to suppose that while the film board is under the minister's administration, films which go out will not contradict the minister's views on foreign policy, and that perhaps in that regard they will follow along the lines of this pamphlet.
I would not expect it to be otherwise. However, I must repeat that there is a big danger in an institution of this kind. I have said the same about the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. There is a danger of institutions like these becoming powerful mediums of propaganda for certain things which in the end may prove detrimental to our country.
Concluding my remarks, I would make this suggestion, that institutions such as the national film board, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, or any other, should come under the closest scrutiny of parliament every year. I would suggest that the appropriate parliamentary committees be set up regularly, so that officials could make their annual reports, and so that those annual reports could be scrutinized from every angle.
This institution may be safe in the hands of the present officials; I do not know. But it may not be safe in the hands of others who may follow in their footsteps. That is the reason why institutions of this kind should come under the closest scrutiny.


Mr. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Ontario):: I should like to say a few words about this, and I would begin by saying that I endorse everything the hon. member for Macleod has said. It is something we ought all to have constantly in our minds.
I am a believer in films, and I believe in them particularly because of what has been said by the hon. members for Qu'Appelle and Winnipeg North. Nevertheless I think there is great danger that in the schools we may overuse these new inventions. Teachers have pointed out certain of the dangers they face in schools. They say that their children spend most of their spare time either at the
films or listening to the radio, and it is pointed out that neither of those entails the slightest degree of effort on the part of the child. I believe, therefore, that overuse of films could be a detriment in education.
As I said, I am a believer in films. But, like all new things, they can get the bit in their teeth, and run away with themselves.
I cordially welcome what has been said by way of suggestion by the hon. member for Macleod. As a matter of fact, I was going to put forward something of the kind, but the hon. member has done it better than I could have done. However, I suggest earnestly to the minister that something of that kind should be done at the next session.
I am not going to take the time of the committee to discuss this in detail this evening, but I wish to make one other comment, which has to do with a great many things. Much as I believe in the films, I had thought that perhaps they would not be used to the same extent that might have been necessary in war time. I confess, therefore, I was surprised to find the expenses in this connection up by about *132,000 in the main estimates, and, reading the supplementary estimates, I am even more surprised to find an additional amount of *335,000 under this item. In other words, this service will cost about fifty per cent more during the next year than it did last year. Those are the figures as I understand them.
All this may be perfectly right, but in my opinion it has become far too easy to get a vote of hundreds of thousands of dollars without anyone spending five minutes to tell us what it is all about. In Muskoka-Ontario $500,000 is a lot of money, and I feel that before this passes in a perfunctory way, as it seems in danger of doing, we should know where this $500,000 is going.
As I understand it, Mr. Grierson has developed this thing in a big way. He was the pioneer, and was a man who had great ability along this line. As I say, he was the pioneer, and I am perfectly ready to believe- although perhaps I would not be as enthusiastic as the minister-that we have produced a good service. But I repeat that I hope the suggestion made by the hon. members to my left will be noted.
I have just one other thing to say. My suggestion to the minister would be that this item should be closely correlated with education-and when I say "education" I do not refer to it in its purely professional sense. But I do feel, as has been suggested, that this is a thing which requires the closest scrutiny, first of all by seeing that it is the instrument we understand it to be and not something
revised edition
Supply-Health and Welfare

else, and, second, that it does as much positive good as it ought to do, by being wisely used.


Mr. JACKMAN:: May I endorse the remarks of the hon. member for Macleod. I should like to say in that connection that I believe the United States congress has recently passed a law under which a great many corporations and other governmental administrative bodies which formerly reported only to various ministers of the government of that country now report directly to congress or to a committee of congress.
The amount of money appropriated for the national film board has been mentioned. I think it is $1,140,000 for the year now rapidly passing out. The minister has said that some of these films have been exhibited commercially both here and in other countries, and I should like to know how much has been taken in by way of revenue so that we may get some idea of the scope of the activities of the national film board,
I must say that the films of the national film board that I have seen have not left a very favourable impression upon my mind.
I have seen some of their documentary films; then, shortly after, I have seen corresponding productions of United States film companies, and certainly there is no comparison between the two. I remember one film put out by this board called "Balkan Powder Keg". That film outraged the sensibilities of thousands of my constituents to such an extent that it had not been showing for more than a day or two before my telephone was bombarded with demands that it be withdrawn. I immediately telephoned Mr. LaFleche, who was then in charge of this branch of government, and he said that an investigation would be made but that for the time being he did not see that the film need be withdrawn. This film, "Balkan Powder Keg", was definitely antiBritish, not so much by direct picturization as by innuendo. It depicted that the worst wars always started in the Balkans, and it was distinctly pro-Russian and anti-British. It certainly engendered -real opposition in the minds of the people of Toronto. I daresay the minister was flooded with other protests, and shortly afterward he wrote me a nice letter saying that this particular film product of the board, "Balkan Powder Keg", had been withdrawn from circulation. I hope it has stayed withdrawn.
, While some of these films may be exhibited in the United States, I do not know exactly what object they are achieving to advertise our country there. We have an extremely able press, an illustrated press as well, and 
there are correspondents of the great United States journals in Ottawa and in other parts of Canada. These men can tell the United States public what we do in Canada. If the minister could do something to stop the flow of good Canadian citizens across the border from my own city and1 from other places in Canada he would be doing a greater service to our country than by trying to advertise Canada in foreign lands.
While some things may have an element of goodness in them, and this may be one of them, there is a limit to the amount of money that we can spend. Every time we spend money we not only take certain of our people out of productive service who would otherwise be producing other goods and services for Canadians, but we saddle on the backs of those of us who still remain producers an extra tax burden, a burden which is becoming so heavy that if it is not lightened we certainly shall see a diminution of the forward progress of this country and an increase in unemployment.


Angus MacInnis: I do not rise to take part in this rambling discussion which has perhaps covered too much area already. I rise merely to indicate my agreement with certain remarks made by the hon. member for Mus-koka-Ontario and the hon. member for Rose-dale. It is not very often that I find myself in agreement with those hon. gentlemen, and I wish to make it known. It is time that we put a stop to this easy voting of money, and I came to that conclusion yesterday.


Gladys Grace Mae Strum: On every day of every week, every afternoon until perhaps eleven o'clock, the theatres of this country are open. You can go downtown in Ottawa or in any other city and you will see this process of education going on. The adult and juvenile mind is being exposed to this process. Thousands of films, largely made in other countries, are exhibited, and we have absolutely no control over their production or the ideas they represent or the sort of morals they hold up to us for emulation. They are moulding public opinion through a process of education in this country.
But here we have one agency upon which we spend a niggardly sum; comparatively speaking, it is nothing in our national budget. Here we have the means of putting"out wholesome ideas to which we need to expose the people of this country. I do not play bridge, and therefore I do not slip out to have a game in the middle of the afternoon or evening, but I took an hour off. twice this week and went to see a showing of two films.

Supply-Health and Welfare
One of these dealt with a community service in the form of a library on wheels in British Columbia. It was one of the finest things I have ever seen. I wish we had that service everywhere in Canada. I am sure that the showing of that film will promote interest in that sort of thing in other parts of Canada. People will begin to assume local responsibilities for taking part in that sort of thing. The other one dealt with day nurseries and it showed the details of a Toronto unit. It did credit to that city, to the department of education and to the department that had sponsored it.
These are things that the people need to know. They are wholesome things, and they are the sort of things that this government should take some responsibility for rather than to pass the whole field over to the United States commercial product which glorifies the broken home and glamourizes the things which we as a nation are trying to combat. These are the things that end quite frequently on the.floor of this House of Commons in the form of a divorce bill; these are the things that we are importing into Canada. It is about time that we diluted that with a much more generous appropriation. I should like to double it, so that our people may get some of the wholesome things we want to release into the minds and into the homes of our people.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I wish to say first that I disagree with my bon. friend to my left, and I disagree also with the hon. member for Rosedale and the hon. member for Muskoka-Ontario. This shows that this party is composed of men who have their own opinions. I supported this vote, and I do so again. I would vote for double the amount. I was an industrialist and I am thinking of the working men in my riding. I wish to tell the minister that the industrial films which have been sent out by the department are the best films I have seen in that line.
I saw one dealing with the lumber industry in the province of the hon. member for Vancouver South. That film was shown in the United States and is bound to have the effect of bringing tourists to Canada and of creating a demand for Canadian lumber. I cannot understand men being opposed to films that encourage industry and tourists to come to Canada. I am not at all in accord with what the hon. member for Muskoka-Ontario said. My whole life has been spent with workers in industry, and my whole life has been directed to providing jobs. You cannot pro-47696-228J
vide jobs if you are going to look at a few dollars and oppose the showing of what industry does.
I should like to ask the department to make a film on Shipsbaw and show' the three-way trade that is created there. We should show people how we bring bauxite from British Guiana 'to Shipshaw, how we produce the power and aluminum, and then how we make paper at Chicoutimi and ship it to England on the same boats, permitting them to make the round trip. More power to the government-I 'am not speaking from a party point of view-when it says that it intends to show throughout the world what Canadians are doing. Do not hesitate to 'ask for a little more money. I will support anything that will build industry in this country.


Alistair McLeod Stewart: Could the minister give us any idea as to who the new head of the film board will be and when it is likely he will be appointed.


Brooke Claxton: No; I am sorry that that information cannot be given. As the hon. member knows, the national film board is set up under the act, and the board has not yet had an opportunity of considering that question.
I should like to answer briefly requests that were made for specific information. The revenue from films as shown for 1944-45 in the annual report of the film board, which was tabled on November 14,	1945, was
$72,088.57. That was asked for by the hon. member for Rosedale.
In reply to the hon. member for Muskoka-Ontario, the increases have included an extra $127,000 for the distribution of films in the rural communities in Canada; $110,000 for equipment, due to the fact that the present equipment has been worked exceedingly hard during the war years; $100,000 for the development of international circulation; and $125,000 for the ordinary national film programme circuits-that is distribution. In other words, the expenses, totalling about the amount mentioned, are for increased distribution rather than for increased production.
One final word in appreciation of what the hon. member for Davenport has said, and that is that when we are thinking of the distribution of films not only in our own country but in other countries we should think in terms of the possible gain, and if we have the gain in the tourist business in Canada that we expect, the tourist industry will become the greatest single industry in this country exclusive of agriculture. We can expect to have an annual income from this industry of
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something in the neighbourhood of $300,000,000 a year. The distribution of films, information and knowledge of our country abroad will help to bring that about.


Agar Rodney Adamson: The film board does not intend to produce anything except documentary films, not the whole length film?


Brooke Claxton: No, we do not intend
to compete with Hollywood.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I wish to thank the minister, and all I suggest is that next time we be given the information.


Alistair McLeod Stewart: Will the minister give us the assurance, or can he work on his colleagues so that next session we shall have three days instead of three hours in which to discuss these matters?


Brooke Claxton: That is in the hands of the house. We have sat for seventy-four days, but I hope that it can be arranged.
May I correct the answer that I gave to the hon. member in the southwest corner? Penicillin does come within the range of vote 206, among the items covered there.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Progress reported.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Mr. Speaker, with the consent of the house I move that this house be not adjourned at eleven o'clock this day.


John Bracken: I move in amendment that we shall not sit beyond 11.45 this day.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I will accept the
amendment.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Motion as amended agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Golding in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
24t. Departmental administration, $40,716.
Agar Rodney Adamson: May I ask when the returns of the chief electoral officer covering the election in June will be tabled?


Paul Joseph James Martin: They are now working on it, but I am afraid that it will not be ready for tabling this session unless we sit here for another two or three weeks.


Alistair McLeod Stewart: I have had objections from printers and trade unions that the printing done for the government is not done in union shops and asking that the employees of' the king's printer be unionized. Can the minister give us any information on that?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Most of the men who are
employed by the king's printer are men who have belonged to printing organizations. Only quite recently the pay of the mechanical staff, the linotype operators and so on, was increased. The statute requires that the pay be the average of the wages paid in the various printing shops in the cities of Montreal and Toronto, and I am pleased to say that this was done. Possibly what my hon. friend has in mind is another type of complaint altogether, namely, that some of the men who are appointed are not themselves trained operators and consequently do not come within the ambit of trade union membership.


Alistair McLeod Stewart: Yes,
that wras it.	.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
243. Canada Gazette, $29,969.
Angus MacInnis: Shortly after the beginning of the war the Canada Gazette was not distributed as it formerly was. There was an effort made to save paper, for instance, but now that the war is over and materials are becoming available, may we expect that the Canada Gazette will be printed and distributed as it was before the war?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The whole question of the distribution of the Canada Gazette is now under consideration, and I think that by next session my hon. friend will have his wishes largely met.


John Bracken: Might I ask the minister
to give us a general outline of what branches of the service come within his jurisdiction as secretary of state or in any other capacity?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes, and I am glad that
the leader of the opposition has asked that question because my colleagues do not always fully appreciate the office of Secretary of State. Incidentally it is the oldest portfolio in the history of the country other than that of the post of Prime Minister.
The office of Secretary of State has under it first of all the administration of the companies branch, dealing with the incorporation of companies under dominion charter, which in itself, as the hon. gentleman will well appreciate is an important matter. There is also the registration of trade marks and patents, the correspondence branch which in-

Supply-Secretary of State
eludes registration, under the Trades Union Act, the king's printer, an organization of well over 900 printers and others, in regard to whom I may take this opportunity of making this statement, that during the war they rendered as valuable a service to this country as any group of servants or any other body of workers, with the possible exception of the armed forces, who, of course, bore the primary responsibility of carrying on the war. The printers, the linotype operators and the pressmen work three shifts and even to-day, this staff is working almost beyond human endurance. They deserve the thanks of this house, which I take the liberty of conveying to them on behalf of the house.
Then there is the civil service commission. It does not by statute come under the ministry of the Secretary of State, but by tradition and by custom the Secretary of State has acted as the liaison between the commission and parliament, and the executive arm of government, and I have taken advantage of the opportunity of extending the scope of the minister's functions in that regard. The civil service commission, supervising a personnel now of a little over 143,000, makes the government the largest employer in Canada.
In addition, there is the transfer of a new branch from the Department of National War Services, the citizenship branch, to that of the Secretary of State. Naturalization and' matters affecting the status of aliens and nationality have been dealt with by the office of the Secretary of State. It may interest the committee to know that that is not as perfunctory an organization as it might seem when one considers that no less than a million people who are now nationals in this country have become nationals as a result of the benefits and procedures afforded under the Naturalization Act, and the care of the records of naturalization entails in itself a tremendous task.
Now to that has been added the citizenship branch, a branch of government that was created at the beginning of the war and was intended largely as a means of keeping in contact with all foreign language newspapers in particular and furnishing them with news and the translation of events. That now has been transferred to the office of the Secretary of State, and the intention is to make active use of the citizenship branch, to make it an integral part of the operations, which I trust will come into being when the Citizenship Act is passed by this house.
That in a general way is a survey of the office of Secretary of State.
Then, of course, there is the archives. The archives is one of the oldest branches in the department. It has to do with the preservation of documents both precious and practical, and those that are intended to serve an historical purpose, A new function is being added to the work of the archives by the creation recently by the government of a committee on the conservation of public records. One of the greatest disasters, from the point of view of historical research at the end of the last war, was that the storage of important documents was not adequate, with the result that many documents were lost, so that the writing of history suffered. Consequently an interdepartmental committee, under the chairmanship of the Secretary of State, has been set up to decide what documents shall be destroyed, what documents shall be preserved, and where in any event they shall be distributed. While this may seem to be a minor ministerial act on the face of it, it is an extremely important matter. I would say to hon. gentlemen that possibly the most important job, outside the minister's liaison activities with the civil service, is the fact that the Secretary of State is the custodian of enemy alien property.	At the present time the
Secretary of State, as custodian, is the most important trustee in Canada, and administers the largest trust fund. He administers property of a greater value than that held by any other trustee in the country.
The whole question of reparations and all that sort of thing is, of course, tied in witk the administration of the custodian's office.. I know I have greatly impressed the leader of the opposition. I can only hope that I have; impressed the Minister of Veterans Affairs^


John Bracken: The minister always impresses me, as I am sure he impresses the house when he speaks, and I wish to thank him for outlining the work of the department, which appears to be distributed in pieces all round the place. That is the only reason I rose to ask the question. Is it the intention of the minister to deal now with these different services? They are to be found in different places.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes. We are on the printing bureau.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
245. Distribution of official documents, $51,202.
Mr. NICHOLSON:: Would the minister consider making Hansard available at a lower cost so as to encourage popular subscription throughout the country? Does that come under his supervision?
Supply-Secretary of State


Paul Joseph James Martin: Perhaps my hon. friend will
join me some day in paying a visit to the treasury board.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
818. Departmental administration, $99,050.
Douglas King Hazen: Where do we find the custodian of enemy property?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The office is created by statute, and the administration of the funds has nothing to do with the consolidated revenue. I have taken the position, and I believe quite properly, that if at any time the house should ask for a statement of particulars I would consider it my duty to give it. That may seem strange. The custodian in the United States, and custodians in other parts of the British commonwealth, do not ;ake that view. The custodian in this country, however, takes that position, but there are no special accounts, by way of formal estimates. We are administering trust funds that belong to other people, which funds may, at some time in some way, be used in connection with claims. I was about to say that the value of the property we are administering is very considerable.


Douglas King Hazen: Do you not get money voted to pay the officials?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Under the statutes, and ensuing regulations, we are allowed to charge a certain fee for administration of the trust. The people whose estates are thus administered have the right to question the charge imposed and to go before the courts as in the case of any trust company or trustee. The funds we are administering do not necessarily belong to the crown, although the custodian is a minister of the crown and has the responsibility, on request, of making a report to the house.


Douglas King Hazen: In what year was the statute passed to which the minister has reference?


Paul Joseph James Martin: It was passed at the beginning of the first great war and additional powers were at the beginning of the recent war conferred by order in council.


Agar Rodney Adamson: What is done with the funds of such concerns as Bayer Aspirin?


Paul Joseph James Martin: They are part of a trust account and they must be accounted for the same as any other trust.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Is there a trust account with the Bank of Canada?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The funds are converted into recognized trust investment channels.


Agar Rodney Adamson: The trustee, has the power to invest.


Paul Joseph James Martin: He has a limited power like any other trustee.


Agar Rodney Adamson: He can invest them in dominion government bonds?


Paul Joseph James Martin: In safe and designated securities.


Mr. BURTON:: Has the custodian of enemy alien property any farm lands under his care that he would be disposing of?


Paul Joseph James Martin: As the hon. gentleman knows from a return I made to him the other day, there is a limited amount of farm lands in Saskatchewan under the custodian's control. I cannot say how much. It was the case to which my hon. friend referred the other day, the return to which I thought satisfied him fully, and there are other properties.


Joseph William Burton: I appreciate receiving the return brought down in the way in which it was, in spite of the fact that there was a certain amount of reservation. I should like to make a suggestion to the minister. Instead of the department disposing of farm lands in the manner in which it has been done in the past, I suggest that it be done through the Department of Veterans Affairs under the Veterans' Land Act. I think that would be the proper way to deal with it.


Paul Joseph James Martin: As the hon. gentleman
knows, that matter is now receiving careful attention.


Joseph William Burton: What I have in mind is
other cases that may develop.


John Bracken: Am I correct in my understanding that there is no estimate required for this particular branch of the service?


Paul Joseph James Martin: There is not.


John Bracken: I also understand that the minister makes no report to the house.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes; an annual report is prepared by the auditors, Price, Waterhouse and Company. In fact it is more than an annual audit; it is almost a running audit of the administration of the trust. Since taking over the office of Secretary of State, I have felt that there should be a further audit. Arrangements are now being made with the auditor general to make a supervisory audit, which will be complementary to that of the auditor mentioned. If at any time hon. members wanted information I would consider that it would have to be given to this house. Dur-

Supply-Secretary oj State
ing the war there were occasions for security reasons, when some of this information could not be openly discussed. Generally speaking, I think that time has passed.


John Bracken: Is there an auditor's report in the public accounts?


Paul Joseph James Martin: No, there is no auditor's report in the public accounts, but hereafter the auditor general will make a supplementary report or a survey, and I presume that will appear in the accounts in some form.


John Bracken: In recent years there has been no report.


Paul Joseph James Martin: There is an annual report made by the auditor, but it has not been given to the house. Hon. members have requested that information, but it has not been given openly for security reasons.


John Bracken: In the early years of the war certain properties owned by communists in certain' sections of Canada were taken by the government.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes, and temples.


John Bracken: And sold. Later, these people wanted to get the properties back, and they have had difficulties. Does that come under the minister's department?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes.


John Bracken: I think he had better tell us about that.


Paul Joseph James Martin: It comes under the custodian. At the beginning of the war, before the present minister was Secretary of State-


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Before Russia was in the fight.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes, before the entrance into the war of one of the later allies of the united nations, certain organizations were banned for certain reasons. These properties were taken over by the custodian and sold. Three or four years later, last year to be specific, in some instances these properties were repurchased, and.1 compensation was paid by the custodian on recommendation of the governor in council.


John Bracken: I happened to have
information on some of these instances, because representations were made to us while I was engaged in another capacity.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes.


John Bracken: I have in mind certain properties that were taken over by the government and sold. The former owners wanted them back but could not get them back. Could the minister tell us if the former owners
of those properties which were taken over have been satisfied by the compensation they have received, or whether the government has recompensed them for any losses which may have been incurred or whether the government is out as a result of taking over these properties and then trying to satisfy the owners later?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The government is not out at all. I believe I can say that to the extent the settlement has been made these parties are satisfied.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: The government must be out some money. If the government expropriated the properties of the first group of Ukrainians, and then had to make restitution because of the changed international situation, it is not likely that the rival group, who in most cases acquired the properties, would give them back. They were transferred, and surely the government must either have made restitution in kind, or else given them money which satisfied them.


Paul Joseph James Martin: That is right.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: There must have been some loss in connection with it.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Payments, if that is what the hon. member means.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: How much did it cost the government, because of the action in the first place and the restitution?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I shall have to give the particulars at a later date.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Is the custodian of enemy property free to give the committee an account of the property which is under his jurisdiction in that connection?


Paul Joseph James Martin: As custodian?


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Yes.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: As I understand it, not only enemy property is in his custodianship but also property of nationals in enemy occupied countries. Can he give us the figure for the respective former occupied countries in that connection? We are now granting aid to many of these countries. Is it a fact that some of their nationals owned1 valuable securities either representing properties in Canada or the physical paper security in the custodianship of the minister? What is the amount of that? Has the government made any effort to make sure that Canada acquires the securities against aid which may be given to some of these formerly enemy occupied countries?
Supply-Secretary of State


Paul Joseph James Martin: With regard to the value of the property under the custodian, the hon. member will understand that there is a difference between par and market value. I hesitate a little even to say this, but I would think that possibly the market value of the property-and this is a very rough estimate- might be close on to one billion dollars. That does not mean that that would be the actual value at the date of the sale or that it is the assessed value. It would all depend on contingencies which my hon. friend no doubt appreciates. I cannot tell him offhand the value of the property of nationals in enemy occupied territory. I was going to hazard a guess, but perhaps I had better not do that.
With regard to the general question that he raised, there is taking place in Paris at the moment-possibly the conference is over now-a sort of preparatory commission leading up to a more general reparations conference, at which conference presumably will be discussed the whole question of reparations arising out of direct damage to property as a result of the war, or as a result of the cost of the war to the countries participating in the conference. The problem would be whether Canada would make a claim for damage to property, which conceivably might be relatively slight, or whether she would simply make a claim for the cost of the war against the enemy. At the moment I can only say that those matters have not been decided. The conference which is now under way is a preliminary one, and we shall have to await the return to Canada of our representatives there, who include a representative of the custodian's office.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: That relates to enemy
property. Could the minister say anything about the property owned by nationals of formerly occupied countries?


Paul Joseph James Martin: That would be all part of the claim. When we come to assess what Canada's reparation claim will be, circumstances of that nature will be borne in mind. The question then to consider will be the control which any individual country may be able to exercise over the assets of the enemy within the possession of the applicant country, in this case Canada; for instance, to what extent would Canada have control of these assets at the end of the war?


Harry Rutherford Jackman: The enemy assets of
which we now have control undoubtedly will not go back to the enemy; certainly they will go to make up the reparations.


Paul Joseph James Martin: That would depend on the general united nations decision.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: In connection with the
other class of assets, owned by nationals of enemy occupied countries, surely there will be no claims against them on the part of other countries. But we in Canada are advancing money to some of these countries by way of relief, and I submit that at the same time wealthy nationals of these countries ' should not be allowed to withdraw those securities for their own uses, while Canada, as it were, makes an outright gift. I wish to know if there are substantial assets owned by these nationals of formerly occupied countries, and what the present policy of the government is in regard to their disposition vis-a-vis the gifts or credits we are advancing to these countries.


Paul Joseph James Martin: There are assets, but I can only say that the matter has not reached a state of final decision. It depends upon the circumstances which I just mentioned in a general way.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: But you are not releasing
the assets?


Paul Joseph James Martin: No.


John Bracken: I wish to ask one further question, I am not clear with respect to the owners of properties which were taken over by the government early in the war under this arrangement, and some of which I know were sold at figures considered- to be less than their value. I understood from the minister that the former owners had been satisfied in some way. I do not see how they could be satisfied under circumstances like that, unless somebody satisfied them, which would mean unless Canada assisted them. I am not asking the minister for an answer now, but it is a point on which I should like some information, if not now, at least some time. At the moment I am not criticizing the administration; it is just that we do not have the information we think we should have.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I can only say that to the best of my knowledge the parties involved seem to be satisfied. I am not aware that they are not. I had a discussion with them last week in respect of another matter, and some slight reference was made to the former arrangement. I could only assume from the discussion which took place in my office that there was no dissatisfaction.


Ronald Stewart Moore: I have had several letters from Chinese residents of Vancouver who, prior to the outbreak of the Japanese war, bought bank drafts in favour of Chinese benevolent societies. These Chinese tell me that the bank drafts were never delivered in

Supply-Secretary of State
Hong Kong, owing to the fact that war broke out, and now they believe their money should be refunded. I understand that there have been some communications between the government and the banks in connection with this matter. Is there any possibility of these people having their money refunded in the near future?


Paul Joseph James Martin: This matter will be given the fullest attention and consideration.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
319. Naturalization branch, $65,655.
Howard Charles Green: Have any changes been
made in the naturalization procedure? I know he had in mind introducing more solemnity into the court ceremony, and there was also some talk of setting up schools at which applicants for naturalization could acquire some idea of Canadian history, the Canadian constitution, and the responsibilities of citizenship. Have any steps been taken in that direction?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I am quite aware of the bon. gentleman's interest in these matters and his participation in the discussions of the defence of Canada regulations committee on these very points. One or two of his suggestions have been borne in mind by myself and my officials ever since I have been in the ministry. As the hon. gentleman knows, there is now before parliament a new Citizenship Act, under which authority is given to make regulations in regard to the ceremony of naturalization, and later, under the new act, the ceremony of admission into citizenship, in order to make these much more impressive functions than hitherto has been the case. I can only say that after I became Secretary of State I took the position that some special attention ought to be paid to the delivery of these naturalization certificates, and a carefully prepared letter, a welcoming letter of warmth, of understanding and of cooperation has accompanied every certificate that has gone out. These letters are important, not because they bear my signature, but because they come from a minister of the crown. Last week I took part in a ceremony in Toronto, when some fifty new Canadians were admitted into citizenship. Judge Parker, the senior county court judge of the county of York, who has been perhaps one of the outstanding judges in seeing that these ceremonies have been conducted seriously and impressively, asked me to take part in the ceremonies; the daughters of the empire and other organizations participated and it is the intention of the
Secretary of State in the course of the next year to go right across the country attending these ceremonies, with the idea of seeing if we cannot make them more impressive and more awe-inspiring not only for those becoming Canadian citizens but also for those participating in the ceremonies as sponsors.
It will be the job of this new citizenship branch to assist in doing that very thing. The naturalization branch deals with the issuing of certificates, the filing of certificates and other ministerial acts. Once that has been done, the job of making the ceremony more impressive will be up to the new branch, and that matter is being carefully considered along the general lines I have just indicated.


Howard Charles Green: What about the schools?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The new citizenship branch will work in cooperation with various organizations in the country, including some of the high schools. In the city of Toronto, for instance, night classes are held at certain times of the year by well-intentioned men and women who teach civics and history in these schools, to give the fundamentals of our way of life andi our form of government to these new Canadians. The intention is to prepare a satisfactory manual, in collaboration with national organizations throughout the country, to give these people the essentials and to impress upon them not only the advantages but, as well, the responsibilities of the step they have taken. We are keeping in close touch with many of the organizations of new Canadians, through their publications and so on, and we hope to extend that work along the lines my hon. friend has indicated. I hope, by the end of the next session, after the new act has come into existence, to be able to indicate not only what we intend to do but what we have really succeeded in doing.


Alistair McLeod Stewart: The minister has paid tribute to Judge Parker for what he has done in connection with naturalization. I suggest that tribute should also be paid to Mr. Justice Dysart of Winnipeg, who has done excellent work along these lines.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Hear, hear.


Alistair McLeod Stewart: I am informed' Mr. Justice Dysart sent the department a set of recommendations. Probably that was before the present minister took office. Can he tell us about them and whether the department has acted upon them in any way


Paul Joseph James Martin: I am glad that the hon. member mentioned Mr. Justice Dysart who, in his capacity as a supreme court judge, and
Supply-Secretary oj State

also as one of the officers of the Winnipeg Canadian Club took upon himself the responsibility of giving this matter direction in that city. I am pleased to join with my hon. friend' in paying tribute to Mr. Justice Dysart.
The recommendations he has sent have been carefully considered. Many of them cannot be implemented until the new act comes into being, but some of them have been implemented and, generally speaking, they meet with departmental approval.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
320. Companies branch, $43,095.
Harry Rutherford Jackman: I understand that changes have been made in the British companies act, upon which ours is closely modeled. Has the minister given consideration to those recent changes, and does he propose at a subsequent session to incorporate any of them in our Companies Act?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I am hoping that at a subsequent session there will be some revision. I cannot say at this time whether those revisions will include any of the suggestions made in the British act. However, they are being carefully considered.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
322. Bureau for translations, $423,870.
John Bracken: Why is there an increase here?


Paul Joseph James Martin: There have been some increases as of two or three months ago, and there will be more, The task imposed upon the bureau for translation is simply tremendous. I am afraid we have overworked' a good many of these translators during the war, particularly, and the job has not eased' up. The creation of some of these new departments has placed upon the bureau for translations a heavy task, and I can only say that this increase is due to increased work.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: How many are in the bureau?


Angus MacInnis: The information states hat there are eighty-eight.


Paul Joseph James Martin: There are more than that now, about 180, including the temporaries.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
325. Patent and copyright office; administration division, $35,375.
Mr. ZAPLITNY:: What is the process followed in having an invention patented?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I hope my hon. friend will n/ot misunderstand me when I say that the soundest procedure is to consult a good1 lawyer,

and particularly one who has had experience in this type of work. However, the procedure, briefly, is that you send on your specifications or plans to the commissioner and to the department. They are dealt with and examined, in the light of prior claims, special attention being paid to the matter of encroachment. This procedure is technical, and depends upon the type of invention. However, the formula of approach is simple.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: Why does the minister think the best approach is through a lawyer? What has a lawyer to do with the matter, when acting as go-between?


Paul Joseph James Martin: One would wish to make sure that his plan or device is clear and unequivocal. There are men in the legal profession who have had engineering training, and who have special qualifications for drawing plans and giving advice. They can carry on technical discussions with the examiners and other officers of the department.
However, there are hundreds of these applications concerning which no legal advice is given, nor am I suggesting that it should be sought in every case. But in an application which involves a complicated invention, let us say for industrial use, and that sort of thing, it is good advice to have the services of a competent lawyer. As I have said, there are many inventions which do not require that kind of assistance. But, as one goes to a doctor for an appendectomy, one should go to a person qualified to deal with patent applications, when he has a detailed device to be patented.


William Alexander McMaster: A very fine book has been issued by the department, which deals completely with the subject.


Percy Ellis Wright: I do not wish to hold up these estimates, but I must point out that in the last two or three years, in investigations in the United States and Canada an increasing amount of evidence has been brought out respecting the curtailment of trade through the holding of certain patent rights by various companies. I believe that the time has come when we should set up a committee of the house, probably at the next session, to go into this whole matter of patents, and our relationship in international agreements, as applied to patents.
It is time this matter was considered, because we are entering a period when we shall want to 'have freer trade relations with all parts of the world. From the evidence accumulated in the last few years there can be no doubt that the matter of patents has been restricting international trade-and not only

Supply-Labour
international trade, but trade within our own boundaries. Would the minister consider setting up a special committee of the house at _ the next session to consider this whole matter of Canadian patents, and their relationship to international patent agreements?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The administration of this particular division would not, in itself, be concerned with the general problem discussed by the hon. member. Essentially we are a ministerial body carrying out a definite function. But to the extent that this does involve the broader policy may I say that my own sympathies in this matter are not dissimilar to those of the hon. member. I have already taken steps in this connection, and matters are now being studied in circles beyond my own department.


George Hugh Castleden: Are there any limitations, under the legislation as it now exists, respecting the length of time a patent can run? Does the department require when such patents shall be used, stipulating that otherwise they will lapse?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes, there are such
conditions.


George Hugh Castleden: What is the length of time?


Paul Joseph James Martin: It would depend upon the circumstances. However, there are conditions of use.


George Hugh Castleden: Covering all patents?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Most patents, yes. It would not cover them all, but, generally speaking, that is correct.


George Hugh Castleden: Could the minister give an approximation of the number of patents now in his office?


Humphrey Mitchell: Call up on the telephone on Monday.


George Hugh Castleden: I will call on Tuesday, when the minister's estimates come up-or on Wednesday.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I will give that information to my hon. friend, although I have it with me at the present time.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
579. Companies branch, further amount required, $5,200.
Harry Rutherford Jackman: Does this branch result in a net revenue, or after taking off the fees, is it an expense to the government?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The revenue far exceeds the expenditures, and that is true all. through the years.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: I take it that the revenue goes directly to the consolidated fund.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes.



DEPARTMENT OP LABOUR

[Stage Direction]
Departmental administration, $526,002.
Angus MacInnis: As far as certain phases of its work are concerned, the functions of the Department of Labour will become of increasing importance. We are now in a period of shortage of labour and are back again where we were before the war when we have more applicants for jobs than there are jobs. The latest official report that has come to my hand shows that the unemployment situation at the beginning of October was commencing to get bad. At that time there was a decline of 42,437 persons employed as compared with September 1. The employment situation in all but three of the twenty largest cities of Canada showed a decline in employment on October 1 as compared with September 1.
As far as Vancouver is concerned, employment has been on the decline since October 1, 1944. Some people may not realize this, but the payroll index from October 1, 1944, to October 1, 1945, shows a fall of 10-7 per cent. I am wondering what the policy of the department will be to take care of the unemployment situation and to stop this trend before it goes so far as to cause, not only distress but unrest in various centres of Canada. When we were discussing the estimates of the Department of Veterans Affairs figures were quoted to show that the situation in Vancouver was extremely critical and likely to cause trouble at any time. Before we adjourn, could the minister give a summary of what the department has in mind to meet this situation?


Humphrey Mitchell: As my hon. friend knows, the Department, of Labour is a placement agency. My hon. friend had ample opportunity to discuss this matter when the estimates of the Department of Reconstruction were being reviewed. I think it will be freely admitted that the placement machinery we have to-day is far better than anything we have had before in the history of this country. I am amazed myself that conditions are somewhat better than some agents of gloom predicted a few months ago they would be. At that time we heard predictions of there being half a million people out of employment by the
Supply-Labour

end of October. When we realize that during the last four months we have placed over
750,000	people in the employment stream it gives some idea of the resiliency of free institutions and the ability of our Canadian economy to absorb people into productive employment.
I am not underestimating the magnitude of the problem; but in view of the sudden collapse of Japan and the almost overnight stoppage of war production, the results achieved so far have been in my opinion-I am speaking as an individual who has watched this situation closely from day to day-much better than the most sanguine people imagined they would be. Let us get back to our machinery. This is a seasonal country. Many years ago my hon. friend and myself advocated the institution of unemployment insurance. That has been established and almost 2,500,000 people come within the orbit of that policy.
This is the time when we get a drop in employment which one looks for in a country of this description. We even had it last year. I remember some of the difficulties with which some of my hon. friends were confronted in the supply of man-power for many of our basic industries. I am not one of those who are fearful of the future. I believe that the Canadian economy is in as sound shape as any other economy I know of to face up to the inevitable situation. In Great Britain they still have close to 4,000,000 people in the armed forces, and at the moment they have an unemployment situation of about 100,000. It is what one might call a book item.
My. hon. friend spoke of Vancouver, and I should like to say this about that situation. Like all cities in which one does not experience the rigours of climate that we have in the central and northeastern parts of America, it is inevitable that there be a shift of population toward that city. I do not know what one can do about it when freedom of movement is guaranteed to any individual in this country. It is just one of those things that are done in every country where these extreme conditions exist. We had it in prewar days, and we had it in considerable measure during the war period when people from the prairie provinces went to the coast, just as they do in the United States to get away from the rigours of the climate. I am not an alarmist. I do not take a negative attitude on questions of this kind. I have expressed this opinion before, that provided we can maintain a stable price level and get the cooperation of the people of this dominion and, of course, a reasonable stability in international trade which is of great importance to

a country where two out of every five persons rely upon export trade for opportunities for employment-


John Ritchie MacNicol: Two out of every five
depending on exports?


Humphrey Mitchell: Yes, I think that is
correct.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Correct.


Humphrey Mitchell: Two out of every five,
speaking from memory.


John Bracken: I think it is three out of
eight.


Humphrey Mitchell: That is approximately the same. When we get that and a proper distribution of labour in this country I am hopeful that some of the predictions of the calamity howlers will disappear. That is a prediction.


Angus MacInnis: It is a hope.
Mr. MITCHELL.:	Just wait a minute.
You should not call me that.


Angus MacInnis: I did not call you anything. I said it is a hope, not a prediction.


Humphrey Mitchell: That is just like the
speech the hon. member made the other day in regard to stabilizing the price level. If my hon. friend wants to discuss that I shall be glad to discuss it with him at some other time. The government should be given some credit for the contribution we have made in this war when the situation was very dark and we stood alone. We should be given credit for sincerity in our approach to the problems that faced us. My hon. friend in his speech only yesterday-paradoxical, it is true-said that this had been the ablest government in the country and that this was the ablest parliament in his memory. We are in the soup together, and that is why I like parliament. That is why I think there is nothing better. My hon. friend laughs.


Angus MacInnis: I am laughing because
you like parliament because we are all in the soup together.


Humphrey Mitchell: A good bowl of soup
would probably do my hon. friend no harm.
I like parliament because you get criticism, which is the lifeblood of democracy, and notwithstanding all the good things my hon. friend said about the ability of the government I still think we can learn from the opposition and even from himself.

Prime Minister-Birthday Greetings


Angus MacInnis: That is rather remote.


Humphrey Mitchell: You said that; I did
not.
Item stands.
Progress reported.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Mr. Speaker, with the consent of the house I would move a motion which I have already discussed with the various groups. I move:
That when the house adjourns this day it stands adjourned until Monday next at eleven o'clock, and that the house do sit through Monday without recess until six p.m., and from eight p.m. until midnight or until such earlier *time as the business of the house is concluded, and that standing orders 2, 6 and 7 be suspended in relation thereto.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: At the rate at which
we have been proceeding to-day and yesterday I hesitate to support the motion for fear that we might be here until Wednesday or Thursday. Could we not leave the motion over until Monday?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The only alteration it makes is that we sit during the luncheon recess.


Humphrey Mitchell: I thought the motion
was to allow the house to carry on until three or four o'clock in the morning.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No, until midnight, if we do not conclude the business earlier.


John Bracken: That is an invitation
that we hurry up and get through early.


George Hugh Castleden: Since this motion
means that we are going to sit without the noon recess, I think we should be given the order in which the various departments and other business will be taken up and that that schedule should be adhered to.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I have that here and
will give it when moving the adjournment of the house.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Mr. MACKENZIE moved the adjournment of the house.
He said:	At eleven o'clock on Monday
morning the Prime Minister will proceed with the resolution in regard to atomic energy and then with his estimates on external affairs and the various other estimates in relation to the Prime Minister's departments. When we dispose of that we shall take up in this order; Fisheries, the Department of Labour, Post Office and Public Works, Finance, which includes the auditor general; Transport, Reconstruction and Munitions and Supply are all together to be handled by the Minister of Transport:	National Defence; legislation,
under the jurisdiction of Mr. Speaker; National Revenue. That is the order so far as it can be followed.
Ernest George Hansell: Might I suggest that if
we proceed on this schedule there should be a wide discussion allowed on the items? We cannot sit all day without nourishment, and the result is that a member may come back and find that the item he is interested in has been passed.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I think the various
groups and parties can easily arrange relays of those who want to be in the house and the rest can have a lunch outside.


Ernest George Hansell: The trouble is that the
other man cannot make my speech and I cannot make his.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I realize the impossibility of the situation.
Motion agreed to and the house adjourned at 11.50 p.m.
Monday, December 17, 1945.