1945-04-12

PRIVILEGE


[Stage Direction]
Mr. JEAN-FRANQOIS POULIOT (Temis-couata): Mr. Speaker, speaking as a backbencher, I rise to-day to a question of privilege. As a member of parliament I wish to say a
few words at the close of this parliament with regard to our parliamentary indemnity as it is affected by the income tax. The press of the country understands quite well that the position of members of parliament is worse than ever. Poverty is not a shame but it is a great embarrassment. What are the duties of members of parliament? In the first place, a member has to attend the sittings of this house. Members leave their homes and incur considerable expense coming here to attend the sittings. I would like the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley) to listen to me, sir. I address the Chair but I would like his ears to be well open. Members of parliament are considered as a class by themselves by some people who think they are minor individuals who do not deserve decent treatment.
Mr. HOMUTH:: Some of them are treated too decently.


Mr. POULIOT:: I remember that at college there were two brothers who were often fighting between themselves but when anyone came to separate them they united against the one who was butting in.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Will the hon. member come to his question of privilege as quickly as possible?


Jean-François Pouliot: Yes sir, surely. But when some people who are concerned in this do not seem to understand the seriousness of the matter I have to make some comparisons, and the comparison was that with two brothers who were always fighting but who joined together against anyone who came to separate them. I do not suggest any fight to-day, but I want to put before the house and the country what has been stated in editorial comment by the leading press of the country.
Members of parliament have to hire stenographers; they have to pay for offices where they receive their constituents; they have to pay telephone bills; they have to pay for telegrams; they have to travel often outside the session to look after the interests of their constituents. They have to buy stamps costing a large amount of money, and our indemnity is mentioned as $4,000. We have to subtract from that amount $1,200 for income tax, and we have $60 in all for travelling expenses when we live more than four hundred miles from Ottawa. Well, sir, with $2,800 is it possible to run an office, to pay a stenographer, to pay telephone calls and telegrams, to buy stamps, stationery and so forth? Besides that, is it possible for us to go on like that without anything being credited to us by the income tax branch for the expenditures we are making in coming to attend to our duty?
Privilege-Mr. Ross (St. Paul's)

In England it is different. Members of parliament receive approximately $3,000 a year; but as the House of Commons at Westminster is much smaller than ours, there are seats for only one half of the members, and they are paid in advance, and they are not bound to attend the sittings. I wonder if the same thing is practicable here.
But what I will suggest to the government is, that at first, the expenses which are incurred by members of parliament in the carrying out of their parliamentary duties- travelling expenses, living expenses, office expenses-be deducted from the income tax on their indemnity.
Many hon. members who are professional men are sacrificing their practice in doing their duty as members of parliament. Other hon. members suffer the same prejudice. I hope the government will realize that consideration should be given at once to the well-deserving case of members of parliament.
mb. boss (st. Paul's)-befebence to bemabks IN DEBATE ON APBIL 10


Mr. D. G. ROSS (St. Paul's):: Mr. Speaker, on a question of privilege, there is a matter which, as one of the elected representatives of the city of Toronto, I cannot allow to pass without saying a few words. On the tenth of this month the Minister of Agriculture, speaking in this house, made the following statement, as reported in Hansard, page 726:
I will never forget an experience I had in one of the theatres of an eastern city-
I do not know which city he is talking about.
[DOT]-when I sat in a seat in that theatre and watched pictures of persons connected with certain of our allies appearing on the screen, and listening to the applause-and I joined in it.
Quite rightly so.


Mr. GARDINER:: What is the privilege?


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I shall get to it m a second. I must quote the minister's words:
-and then, immediately following that, was the picture of Major Triquet, right after he had won the Victoria Cross. And when his picture appeared on the screen in that theatre they did not applaud.
I wish to say, Mr. Speaker, that that is an affront to the people of my city of Toronto and to every hon. member. I wish also to say that I have been in several theatres when this officer's picture appeared on the screen-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Just a minute-and there was greater applause for Major Triquet than for anyone else whose portrait was thrown on the screen.



POST-WAR RECONSTRUCTION MINISTEEIAL STATEMENT OF GOVEBNMENT POLICY AS TO EMPLOYMENT AND INCOME

Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Reconstruction) :: Mr. Speaker, acting in my capacity as
Minister of Reconstruction, I desire to lay on the table of parliament a statement on government policy, having to do with employment and income, with special reference to the initial period of reconstruction.
I commend this document to you as deserving careful study. It is perhaps the most, important government document that has been presented to this parliament in recent months. The document covers all major aspects of policy relating to the government's declared objective of maintaining a high level of employment and income in Canada. It is not a simple document, intended for light reading; rather, it must be studied, analysed, and considered, in order that its full importance may be understood. Because it is comprehensive in coverage, and because it seeks to explain the inter-relation of the various policies which the government proposes to pursue, it will reward your close attention.
Since 1939 the policies of the government have been directed toward the objective of total victory. Industry and production have been mobilized and expanded to the limit in pursuit of that objective. The government has, however, at all times, kept in mind the task of capitalizing the expansion of the war years, and of directing our enlarged productive capacity towards the maintenance in peace time of a continued high level of productivity and employment. Effective action to that end cannot be taken until the demands of war have slackened, but plans for its attainment can be made now, and the framework of principles and of administrative machinery can be provided for putting our plans into effect.
Last year this parliament passed the Department of Reconstruction Act. Subsequently I was appointed Minister of Reconstruction and set about the establishment of the new department. Under the statute which you approved, my responsibilities have been clearly defined. Primarily they centre around coordination of the actions of other departments and agencies of government to the end of assuring a rapid and smooth transition from war economy to peacetime economy; the formulation of plans for industrial development and reconversion;

Post-War Reconstruction

public works; housing; research; and the development of our natural resources. It is the duty of the department to find ways and means for carrying out these plans.
Tire organization of the Department of Reconstruction was undertaken at a time when the war in Europe was assuming new dimensions, and when allied attacks in the Pacific were extending the tentacles that will in due course, close upon Japan. Our war production during recent months has been at or near its peak, and the demands upon war industry and upon labour in Canada, have been greater than in any previous period. These demands will continue at peak levels until the defeat of Germany has been proclaimed. Until that day comes, we would be doing less than our share, should we embark upon extensive efforts of reconstruction and reconversion.
However, the primary emphasis on victory has not prevented careful planning for the period of reconstruction and reconversion and the establishment of governmental machinery for implementing these plans. Legislation introduced by the government during the last session of parliament has given some indication of the pattern of our post-war economy. The establishment of a Department of Veterans' Affairs and the measures placed in the hands of that department to assist in the rehabilitation of veterans; the establishment of a Department of National Health and Welfare and the provision for family allowances; the Agricultural Prices Support Act and the Fisheries Prices Support Act; the National Housing Act; the Export Credits Insurance Act and the establishment of an industrial development bank have all indicated the path which the government will follow. The Department of Munitions and Supply, while heavily occupied with our industrial war effort, has been clearing the way for prompt action on renegotiation of contracts, termination of contracts and the clearing of war plants so that rapid reconversion to peace time uses can be made possible.
The task of the Department of Rencon-struction will differ widely from that of the Department of Munitions and Supply. The latter was called on to mobilize and expand production in Canada for a single purpose, the winning of the war, with the government its largest single purchaser. Reconstruction and reconversion involve the rediversification of our industrial economy and return to a situation in which the government is no longer an important purchaser. In many ways the task of reconstruction is the more complicated and therefore the work must be shared by all persons and agencies, public and private. Because of the breadth and variety of the 32283-52
problem, organization for reconstruction must cover a wide and comprehensive field. The new department is now organized and ready for action. Perhaps I can at this time give a very brief outline of the organization that is now functioning in a preliminary way.
One branch of the department is concerned with industrial reconversion and is meeting with considerable success in establishing industries new to Canada in the limited manufacturing space that is released from war work. While industry itself must take the initiative in converting war plants to peace time uses, our industrial reconversion branch will facilitate, stimulate and assist in every way.
A small committee within the department is dealing with applications for double depreciation as provided in the 1944 budget. These provisions are designed to stimulate new capital expenditures and further industrial expansion and reconversion. Capital expenditures in amount of $50,000,000 have already been recommended for double depreciation.
The coordinator of controls will maintain a close contact with all war time control agencies. It will be his task to work out modifications and removal of controls in a manner which will facilitate reconstruction and benefit our economy during the reconstruction period.
A vast amount of war surplus is being disposed of through agencies under the Minister of Reconstruction. Crown-owned plants and equipment will be returned to civilian production when no longer required for war and will be sold or leased to private industry promising substantial new post war employment. In considering the disposal of these plants probable stability of employment is regarded as more important than a high monetary recovery. Special attention is being given to providing rental premises for small businesses. Surplus materials are being disposed of through war assets corporation in a manner designed to benefit our economy as a whole and to avoid speculation and a waste of any usable goods.
Another branch of the department will stimulate industrial research and will render service to industry by placing at its disposal the most modern industrial techniques. It is hoped to duplicate in peace time industry the splendid services that research has rendered to war production. This work will be carried out in close cooperation with the national research council. The purpose will be to enable industry in Canada to make use of advanced scientific information and devices.

Post-War Reconstruction

A coordinator of public projects will stimulate the planning of public works and map out the timing and nature of government expenditures on public works projects. The purpose will be to have in hand at all times a shelf of public projects already planned and available when needed to stimulate employment in any given area.
A coordinator of natural resources will stimulate planning of activities designed for the conservation and development of our natural resources. Special attention will be given to the development of our northwest territories, the management of which is a federal government responsibility. Special attention will also be paid to restoring the depletion caused by war to natural resources such as forests, mines and fisheries.
Civil aviation is a special responsibility of the Minister of Reconstruction. Through the director general of air development, the air transport board, the air services branch of the Department of Transport, and Trans-Canada Air Lines, the rapid development of commercial aviation within Canada and across the oceans will be advanced as rapidly as suitable equipment can be made available.
Export trade has been one of the greatest single factors in Canadian economy and must be expanded as a feature of our post-war economy. A foreign trade officer has been appointed to the Department of Reconstruction to cooperate with the Department of Trade and Commerce in formulating plans for a vigorous external commercial policy and to coordinate the work of that Department with other government agencies.
In order to keep the department in close touch with every part of Canada, local regional councils have been appointed, one in each province of Canada, and two in the large industrial provinces of Ontario and Quebec. These committees will have a permanent executive staff. The duty of the committees will be to k*ep the department informed of employment conditions in their respective areas, to recommend public projects suitable for their area, and to keep citizens within their area informed about the work of the department. These committees will be representative of the various economic groups within the area, and will include representatives of 'abour.
The work of the department will be of direct concern to labour as well as to industry and production, and the department will seek the full cooperation and assistance of labour in formulating and implementing of its reconstruction policies. In order to establish a 
close contact- with labour, our organization in* dudes a labour adviser, who will work in close collaboration with the Department of Labour.
The need for immediate and extensive reconstruction measures has not yet arisen, but the machinery is ready, and action will be prompt whenever we enter into the period of transition following the defeat of Germany. However, the machinery cannot operate without a comprehensive policy to guide it in its working, and set the targets for it. Here also the pattern has been set, the principles have been agreed upon, and the way cleared for action. The government document that I have tabled sets but the policy which will be applicable, particularly to the transition period following the defeat of Germany. The document is specific in the measures which are proposed for this transition period. It is not possible at this time to be equally specific regarding later measures, although the pattern for later measures is indicated in the statement of policy which I am tabling.
To attempt to summarize the document would be an invitation to hon. members to avoid giving study to the document itself. Therefore, I will not attempt such a summary. Once again let me urge you to read and study this important statement of government policy.
During more than five years of war Canada has continued to mobilize and expand its full productive capacity. On the industrial front, government, labour and management have been united together in the common objective of winning the war. On the production front, our farms, our forests, our mines and our fisheries have produced as never before. All our citizens have joined together with a common purpose, to back up our fighting men. The same united effort can win our post war objectives. Canada looks to the future with confidence.


Mr. GORDON GRAYDON (Leader of the Opposition):: May I ask the Minister of
Munitions and Supply, who in presenting this statement appears in the role of Minister of Reconstruction, whether the government document to which he has just referred will be available for distribution to us at once?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is already in the distribution office.


Gordon Graydon: We should have copies
if we are to give any study to it at this stage of the session.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is being sent to every hon. member.

Questions


Douglas Gooderham Ross: May I ask the
minister if he has been in touch with the Minister of Finance, and what the proposed budget is in order to carry out the work he has indicated? I would like to have an answer to that question.


Mr. MICHAUD:: I desire to lay on the
table of the house-


Douglas Gooderham Ross: It is most important that we have some idea of that situation. We have not had a budget brought down," and yet the minister tells us what we are going to do. We do not know how we are going to do it, and it is about time we knew.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The contents of the budget
cannot be divulged until the budget is brought down. It will be brought down at the first regular session in this calendar year.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Mr. Speaker, I desire to lay on the
table the annual report of the Canadian National Railway System for the year ended December 31, 1944; the annual report of the Canadian National (West Indies) Steamships Limited for the year ended December 31, 1944; the annual report of the Canadian National Railways Securities Trust for the year ended December 31, 1944, and the report of the auditors of the Canadian National Railways for the year ended December 31, 1944.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. BRUCE:: 1.	How many of the 16.000 draftees lately made available'by order in council for overseas duty are now overseas?
2.	Have any of these men served in the 1st Canadian Army on the western front? If so, how many and in what units?
3.	How many of these 16,000 are absent without leave?
4.	How many of these A.W.O.L. are classed as deserters?
5.	Have any of each class covered by questions 3 and 4 been apprehended? If so, how many?
6.	How many of these have been tried by a court-martial and what has been the punishment given in each case?
7.	Will all of these men be tried by court-martial?
8.	Did these A.W.O.L. draftees have their rifles and ammunition with them?
9.	If so. have such rifles and ammunition been recovered?
32283-52*


Mr. ABBOTT:: 1.	11,836 N.R.M.A. soldiers have been dispatched to the United Kingdom under the authority of P.C. 8891 as of March 31, 1945.
2.	Yes. To determine the numbers who have served and the units in which they have served would require reference to the general officer commanding in chief, First Canadian army. On the recommendation of the military authorities in the United Kingdom, it has been decided not to refer this question to him at present stage of operations. Further, on the recommendation of the military authorities in the United Kingdom, it has been decided not to disclose the names of the units in which they are serving.
3.	3,936 N.R.M.A. soldiers belonging to units which had proceeded overseas were reported absent without leave and have not surrendered or been apprehended.
4.	3,323 N.R.MA. soldiers belonging to units which had proceeded overseas have been struck off strength as deserters pursuant to the findings of courts of inquiry and have not surrendered or been apprehended.
5.	Approximately 3,700 N.R.M.A. soldiers of units which have proceeded overseas, who have been reported absent without leave, have surrendered or been apprehended. A breakdown of these, between those who had and those who had not, been struck off strength as deserters, is not available.
6.	Seventy N.R.M.A. soldiers have been tried by court-martial on charges of absence without leave or desertion after having been warned for draft overseas. One case was dismissed and in three cases sentence has not been promulgated. In the remaining 66 cases, punishments awarded were:-
14 months imprisonment with hard
labour	[DOT]	 1
1 year detention	 3
8 months detention	 1
6 months "	  10
150 days detention	 7
140 days	"	
2120 days	"	
10110 days	"	
1100 days	"	
190 days	"	
560 days	"	
450 days	"	
140 days	"	
230 days	"	
628 days	"	
521 days	"	
120 days	"	
215 days	"	
4
Questions

7.	Not necessarily. The charges that are laid against a soldier and the manner in which he is tried is largely at the discretion of his commanding officer, who has power to deal with many offences either of his own volition or with the approval of the district officer commanding.
8.	About 140 men who have been reported as absent without leave were in possession of rifles. None took ammunition.
9.	126 rifles have not been recovered.
Note.-The answers to questions Nos. 3, 4
and 5 apply only to N.R.M.A. soldiers from units which proceeded overseas as units and do not include any absentees among N.R.M.A. soldiers from training centres -who were warned for despatch overseas as reinforcements from such training centres.


MOBILIZATION ACT-ORDER IN COUNCIL OF NOVEMBER 1944
Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: 1.	How many men drafted under the provisions of the National Resources Mobilization Act and sent overseas under the order in council of November, 1944, who did not volunteer for active service, have arrived in the United Kingdom up to March 1, 1945?
2.	How many of such men have been sent to the continent up to March 1, 1945?
3.	How many of such drafted men volunteered for general service before leaving Canada up to March 1, 1945?
4.	How many of such drafted men volunteered for general service after arriving in the United Kingdom and up to March 1, 1945?
5.	How many of such drafted men who did not volunteer for active service, either before leaving Canada, or after arrival in the United Kingdom, have been sent to the continent up to March 1, 1945?
0.	How many, if any, of such drafted men who did not volunteer for active service either before leaving Canada or after arrival in the . United Kingdom have been in active combat up to March 1, 1945?


Mr. ABBOTT:: 
ALASKA HIGHWAY-CANOL PROJECT
Mr. BLACK (Yukon):: 1.	Have the costs of construction and maintenance of the Alaska highway and of the Canol project, or any part thereof, been paid by Canada?
2.	If so, how much on each and for what?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered 'by No. 1.


WHITEHORSE OIL REFINERY-USE OF SURPLUS OIL ON STREETS
Mr. BLACK (Yukon):: Will the government of Canada, on the closing down of the oil refinery operated at Whitehorse, Yukon, by Standard Oil Company for the army of the United States, endeavour to arrange with the proper American authorities, that surplus oil at said refinery be made available to the town of Whitehorse for oiling its streets in alleviation of dust nuisance and menace to health, as was done by said authorities in 1944?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: Inquiries have been made of the United States authorities as to whether surplus oil will be available for this purpose.



VETERANS'' LAND ACT

Mr. CHOQUETTE:: 1.	How many district offices have been established in each province under the Veterans' Land Act?
2.	What are the names and address of district supervisors and members of advisory committees appointed in the province of Quebec under the said act?


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: 1.	There are seven district offices located at the following cities: Vancouver, Edmonton, Saskatoon, Winnipeg, Toronto, Montreal and Saint John, N.B.
Thirty-five Regional Offices have been established distributed as follows: British Columbia, 5; Alberta, 7; Saskatchewan, 4; Manitoba, 3; Ontario, 8 (and one sub-office); Quebec, 3; Maritimes, 5.
2.	District Superintendent-Stephane Boily, 1253 McGill College Ave., Montreal.
Regional Offices: Montreal-Regional Supervisor, J. D. Belzile, 516 Dominion Square Bldg., Montreal.

Questions
Advisory Committee Members-R. Thomson, Farmer and Secretary Fruit Co-operative Society, Abbotsford; Gustave Toupin, Professor in Animal Husbandry, Oka; Azellus La-vallee, Farmer, Berthier; J. F. Demarais, Farmer, Iberville; L. C. McQuat, Farmer and Agricultural Agent, Montreal; J. W. Delaney, President Sheep Breeders' Association. Hull; L. J. Smith, Farmer, Aylmer; J. L. Wright, Contractor, Hull.
Quebec-Regional Supervisor, Henri Pintal, 39 St. Paul St., Quebec.
Advisory Committee Members-Dr. A. Morin, Deputy Minister of Agriculture, Quebec; Pierre Turgeon, Farmer, St. Anselme; R. Dionne, Department of Agriculture, Quebec; J. O'Connor, Farmer, St. Henri; E. Brisebois, Agronome, St. Romauld de Levis.
Advisory Sub-committee-C. A. Desrosiers, Power Company, Rimouski; G. Belzile, Chamber of Commerce, Rimouski; T. A. Bouchard, Farmer and Mayor, Luceville; Jules Rinfret, Agronome, Val-Brillant.
Sherbrooke-Regional Supervisor, D. J. Pomerleau, 4 Wellington Street, Sherbrooke.
Advisory Committee Members-J. R. Plante, Farmer and Appraiser, Sherbrooke; J. C. Blackwood, Farmer and Director Agricultural Society, Knowlton.
. MIGRATION WITHIN THE EMPIRE


Mr. CHURCH:: What is being done regarding migration within the empire, including that from the British isles to Canada?


Mr. CRERAR:: Stand.


Thomas Langton Church: Could we not have a reply to this question before the house closes? It is a matter connected with migration within the empire and from the mother country to Canada. I understand Australia and New Zealand have a policy and are getting immigrants. This would be of advantage to returning soldiers.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This is the first day on which the question has appeared on the order paper. I will see if an answer can be provided to-morrow, although I am not sure that it can be.
Question stands.



PENSIONS FOR THE BLIND

Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	How many persons in each of the provinces and in the Northwest Territories were receiving blind pensions as at the latest date for which this information is available?
2.	What was the average monthly payment in each province at said date?
3.	Does the monthly average indicate in the answer to question (2) include any supplementary amounts paid by the provinces?
4.	What supplementary amounts are paid by the various provinces?


Mr. ILSLEY:: 1 and 2. December 31, 1944:
Province	No. of Pensioners	Average Monthly PensionAlberta 	. 249	8 24 46British Columbia ...	. 329	24 69Manitoba 	. 352	24 67New Brunswick 	. 737	24 60Nova Scotia 	. 643	24 29Ontario 	'....	. 1,487	24 59Prince Edward Island.	. 112	22 33Quebec 	. 2.366	24 75Saskatchewan 	. 332	24 94Northwest Territories.	. Nil	-3.	No.4.	British Columbia-A supplementary allowance of $5 per month is paid.
Alberta-A supplementary allowance of $5 per month is paid.
Manitoba-A supplementary allowance of 81.25 is paid to certain pensioners.
Ontario-A supplementary allowance up to 15 per cent of the monthly pension is paid to a maximum of 83 per month.
Nova Scotia-A supplementary allowance may be paid to certain pensioners at the discretion of the provincial authorities.



OLD AGE PENSIONS

Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	How many persons in each of the provinces and in the Northwest Territories were receiving old age pensions as at the latest date for which this information is available?
2.	What was the average monthly payment in each province at said date?
3.	Does the monthly average indicated in the answer to question (2) include any supplementary amounts paid by the provinces?
4.	What supplementary amounts are paid by the various provinces?


James Lorimer Ilsley: 1 and 2. December 31, 1944:
		Average
	No. of	Monthly
Province	Pensioners	PensionAlberta 	11,319	$ 24 18British Columbia	15,129	24 45Manitoba 	12,348	24 50New Brunswick 	12,261	22 11Nova Scotia	14,047 '	22 53Ontario 	58,099	23 89Prince Edward Island..	1,914	18 59Quebec 	49,198	23 96Saskatchewan 	12,803	24 70Northwest Territories.	.. 9	24 44
Questions as Orders for Returns

3.	No.
4.	British Columbia-A supplementary allowance of $5 per month, is paid.
Alberta-A supplementary allowance of $5 per month is paid.
Manitoba-A supplementary allowance of SI.25 is paid to certain pensioners.
Ontario-A supplementary allowance up to 15 per cent of the monthly pension is paid to a maximum of S3 per month.
Nova Scotia-A supplementary allowance may be paid to certain pensioners at the discretion of the provincial authorities.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS

[Stage Direction]
MONT JOLI AIRPORT [DOT]
Mr. LaCROIX:
1.	What was the total cost of construction of the Mont-Joli airport?
2.	What companies obtained contracts for such work, and what amount was paid to each of said companies?
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND WELFARE- EMPLOYEES RECEIVING OVER §3,000
['Mr. Speaker, I have no information about the closing down of the mine. The only thing that would close a mine down would be lack of an outlet for the coal. I hope that my hon. friend will advise those who have communicated with him to buy their coal early. We think that is important, both to the mining industry, and for the comfort of our citizens next winter.']
Mr. CHOQUETTE:: What are the names, qualifications, last place of residence, present duties and yearly salary of each employee receiving more than $3,000 per year and appointed before April 8, 1945, by the Department of National Health and Welfare?



[Stage Direction]
Mr. LaCROIX:
1.	During 1944, has any, (a) cheese; (b) powdered milk, been exported to the United States or to countries other than those of the British commonwealth?
2.	If so, what quantity of each was exported from January 1, 1945, to date?
3.	What quantity to each country?
4.	From what province did such powdered milk or cheese originate?
5.	What companies purchased such cheese?
6.	Is the export of cheese or powdered milk outside the British empire now authorized, and under what conditions?
7.	What is the quantity of cheese and powdered milk for which there is no market in the province of Quebec and which is likely to be lost ?

Mr. PAUL MARTIN (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, before we leave questions may I say that a few days ago I promised the hon. member for St. John-Albert (Mr. Hazen) that I would give a supplementary answer to a question answered on April 9. The question was:

How many persons are employed by the unemployment insurance commission in the maritime region?
The answer was not broken down, and I now wish to do so. It is: Males, 185; females, 245.
The second part of the question was:
How many of them are veterans of this war or the last war?
The break-down is: Males, 68; females, 1.


HOUSING
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. A. H. BENCE (Saskatoon City):: I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Finance. On Tuesday he said he would endeavour before the house closes to have brought down an answer to question No. 3 on to-day's order paper. In view of the fact that we hope to close to-morrow and that questions are not in order after that, and in view of the further fact that this is a very important matter so far as the people of my province are concerned could the minister make a statement in the matter not later than to-morrow? He told me last January that he could not give any information then with respect to the application of the housing act in Saskatchewan. The people out there are wondering what is going on and what is going to happen.


James Lorimer Ilsley: I will make some statement or give some answer before the house closes. I have given a lot of consideration to the question. It is a difficult one to answer.


LABOUR CONDITIONS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. ANGUS MacINNIS (Vancouver East):: I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Labour. Has the government or the Minister of Labour received a request from any or all of the national labour organizations in Canada for a meeting to discuss amendments to the wartime labour relations regulation order P.C. 1003? If a request has been received, has a date for such meeting been set?


Hon. HUMPHREY MITCHELL (Minister of Labour):: As my hon. friend probably knows better than I, or as well as I-because he is an older man than I am-


Angus MacInnis: Knowledge does not always go with age.

Dominion Elections


Humphrey Mitchell: He belongs to the same organizations as I do, and he should know that every year legislative bodies of the national organizations, including the Trades and Labour Congress of Canada, the Canadian Congress of Labour, the Catholic Syndicates and the railroad brotherhoods, meet the government. I assume that when those delegates meet the government, something will be said about amendment to P.C. 1003. Only this morning my hon. friend attended a meeting at which I was present, and at which that matter was discussed.


Mr. GILLIS:: I did not quite catch the minister's answer to the hon. member for Vancouver East. Did I understand him to say that no date had been set to meet the labour bodies in connection with labour legislation?


Humphrey Mitchell: That is correct. I have discussed it with the organizations concerned, but no date has been set.


DOMINION ELECTIONS
[Stage Direction]
STATUS OP CANDIDATES IN THE CANADIAN AHMED FORCES	'
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. G. DIEFENBAKER (Lake Centre):: I should like to ask the Minister of National Defence for Air two questions arising out of the filing of the order in council respecting the electoral right of candidates in the armed forces. My information is that commanding officers overseas object, or certainly do not look with favour upon, granting leave to officers and men from their units who are to return to Canada in order to participate in the respective campaigns. For that reason I suggest to him that uniform regulations, which would be mandatory and which would assure the return of those candidates to Canada at the earliest possible date, should be brought into effect. This should be done uniformly, and without regard to political faith. What has been done to assure that orders are being given to commanding officers in that regard?
My other question arises from the same point. I am informed that an order has gone out affecting officers and men who are to-day in Canada on leave. Even though they have been named as candidates, they are denied the right to appear on political platforms at this time. Instructions have gone out to the effect that they must not in any way actively and openly participate by making speeches on political platforms. Has consideration been given to a directive or order which would allow those candidates to speak on political platforms?
After all, we want to encourage as many as possible of the service men to become candidates.


Hon. C. W. G. GIBSON (Minister of National Defence for Air):: The hon. member was good enough to inform me that he intended to bring up this matter. May I say that to-day I tabled order in council P.C. 2556, which amends a previous order in council P.C. 4075 dated May 30, 1944. The provisions of this new order apply to members of the armed forces serving overseas who may be candidates in dominion and provincial elections, and who have been selected as candidates and certified by the dominion headquarters of their parties, in respect of dominion elections, or by provincial headquarters of their parties in respect of provincial elections. They must be certified as being official candidates. If a candidate is not of any political party he is required to furnish his commanding officer with a statutory declaration declaring himself to be a candidate in such election. When that has 'been done, after the dissolution of the House of Commons or the legislative assembly a candidate as so defined, and subject to the exigencies of the service-that is the saving clause that must always be provided-may be transferred on application to the naval divisional headquarters, if he is in the navy; to the military district depot, if in the army, or to the air force command headquarters, if in the air force, nearest to the electoral district in which he is to be a candidate. On posting to that headquarters leave will be granted, without pay or allowances, to commence on the date requested in the application and terminating not more than two days after the election date. I might state that candidates as so described in the order may appear on public platforms in uniform and speak.


Mr. REID:: What about the man who runs as an independent?


Colin William George Gibson: He applies to his commanding officer and makes a statutory declaration that he is a candidate.


CANADIAN ARMY
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day;
Mr. D. C. ABBOTT (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Speaker, the other day the hon. member for Lake Centre asked me to state how many men of N.R.M.A. status had proceeded to theatres of war up to the end of March. I had given figures to the end of February
Prisoners of IVar-Canadian

and I told him that I had cabled for this information, and would endeavour to give it to the house. I received a reply this morning.
Up to the end of March, 1,705 men who had claimed N.R.M.A. status when they left Canada had proceeded to theatres of war. That represents an increase of 1,467 over the 238 who had proceeded to theatres of war to the end of February. Of this 1,705, a total of 1,651 still had N.R.M.A. status when they left England. What happened to them after they got over to the theatres of war I do not know.
Perhaps I might be permitted to emphasize that these figures bear out the statement which I made to the house yesterday that ' these men are treated in exactly the same way as general service men. They take their place in the queue and proceed as reinforcements to the theatre of war as they are needed.


PRISONERS OF WAR
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. GARFIELD CASE (Grey North):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to make an observation to the Prime Minister, having to do with his statement yesterday about prisoners of war. As you know, there are now appearing in the press pictures showing our prisoners of war in a very terrible condition. I have a letter from a friend who has a son who has been a prisoner of war since August, 1943. For a while they heard from him quite regularly and his letters were cheerful, but for a long time now they have not heard and these pictures are driving them almost to distraction. I should like to ask the Prime Minister if he could seek the cooperation of the press and periodicals and have them desist from publishing these pictures. I do not see where any good purpose is served by publishing them. Thousands of people whose loved ones are suffering under nazi tyranny must be undergoing terrible heartache because of these pictures. Because of what he said yesterday I know the Prime Minister is in sympathy with these people. I should like him to take this matter under advisement and seek the cooperation of the press and periodicals so that we may save these people some heartache and sorrow.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: As the hon. member has
suggested, I have every sympathy in the world with those who have relatives Overseas, in the prison camps, and who undoubtedly are faced with a critical situation. As I said

yesterday, the government is seeking to take every means possible to get correct information. However, to ask me to seek to control the press is a pretty large order. It is one I have never attempted to carry out in any form. I know my hon. friend has certain influence with the press, and perhaps after the words he has just used they will take-


Karl Kenneth Homuth: His influence is a good
influence.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: After the words he has just used I am sure they will take notice. I would imagine that in a matter of this kind the press would be only too anxious to cooperate with anyone of any party.


HOUSING
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Thomas Langton Church: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct the attention of the Minister of Finance to the serious housing condition now existing in Toronto. For the last few days there have been lines of people in front of the office of the emergency administrator on Bay street waiting for permits in order to obtain temporary shelter when there is none available. It is only nineteen days to the first of May and these people must be taken care of. I had intended to move the adjournment of the house to discuss this matter but some time has been taken up already discussing our rules. The minister wrote me on February 20 stating that it would not be possible to build any houses in Toronto because of war and a lack of materials. The emergency shelter control has not helped things; it has simply aggravated' the housing situation in Toronto. As a rule large numbers of people would be going to the island and to the country for the summer, but if they do so these rules interfere with that exodus because it would be necessary for them to get permits when they come back to the city.
I have three or four suggestions I should like to make. First, that army and government property and that of outside commissions in or near the city be made available for temporary housing. This is necessary when many people are being thrown out on the streets on May 1. Second, that any building engineers now in the three forces be lent to-the municipalities in order to help build temporary quarters. Third, that some of the irksome housing controls governing the building and renovation and reconstruction of properties be removed. Fourth, that some labour and a

Armed Forces-Pensions
reasonable amount of used or unused building materials be made available from the war salvage administration and unused war plants, like the one at Pickering; also that there be made available some of the wooden huts now being used on the waterfront by the R.CAJF. equipment depot.


James Lorimer Ilsley: My hon. friend's suggestions will receive consideration. I might say that yesterday or the day before my colleague, the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe) in answer to a question asked by an hon. member, indicated that the Toronto situation was being carefully considered. I understood the minister to say that he hoped to be able to make a statement within a few days.


Thomas Langton Church: You cannot get houses built by sending out shelter postcards. There is enough paper being wasted as it is when there are no houses available.


PENSIONS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. H. A. BRUCE (Parkdale):: May I
ask the Minister of Veterans' Affairs if he is in position to state what the pension, rates will be for various disabilities suffered from wounds or sickness attributable to this war. Similar information was available to the public during the last war.
Hon. IAN A. MACKENZIE (Minister of Veterans' Affairs): My hon. friend was good enough to send me notification yesterday of his intention to ask this question. As the reply is fairly lengthy, I ask permission to table it and I will send my hon. friend a copy immediately.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: Could it not be placed on
Hansard?


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: It will go on Hansard.
(The statement follows:)
Disability as defined in the Pension Act means:
"The loss or lessening of the power to will or to do any normal, physical or mental act."
Disabilities result from wounds, injuries or disease. Section 24 (2) of the Act provides:
"The estimate of the extent of a disability shall be based on the instructions and a table of disabilities to be made by the commission for the guidance of physicians and surgeons making medical examinations for pension purposes."
This table of disabilities was created in 1918 on the recommendation and advice of outstanding specialists, compensation board officials and others after a close study of the assessment tables of the allied governments. The table
sets out percentages for fixed disabilities and is used as a guide only in arriving at the degree of assessment. It has been revised on several occasions and is the subject of constant study by the commission and its medical advisers.
Pension awards are subject to review from time to time and the degree of assesment is based on the degree of pensionable disablement at the time of examination. Amputation at the elbow would normally be a fixed disability whereas disabilities resulting from diseases such as bronchitis may vary from 5 to 100 per cent. For this reason it would be impossible to give the awards of pension for all cases of wounds and sickness but the following examples may meet the request of the hon. member.
Single man
Pension per month
Loss of one eye is assessed at
40	per	cent	 $30	00
Total blindness is assessed at
100 per cent	 75	00
Amputation at elbow is assessed at
70	per	cent	 52	50
Amputation at knee is assessed at
60	per	cent	 45	00
Amputation of both arms is assessed
at 100 per cent	 75 00
Loss of one kidney is assessed at
15	per	cent	 11	25
I might add that, as the hon. member is no doubt aware, the Pension Act, section 26, provides for an addition to pension in cases of helplessness.


CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. S. II. KNOWLES (Winnipeg North Centre): Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Prime Minister, notice of which I sent to him earlier to-day. Has the Prime Minister received from the heads of certain railroad unions in Canada a request for the establishment of a royal commission to investigate the matter of the pension rights of Canadian Pacific employees who were involved in the general strike at Winnipeg in 1919? If so, will the Prime Minister indicate whether consideration will be given to this request?
William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, I did not receive my hon. friend's communication in time to have a search made of the departmental files, and so I am unable to say whether the trade unions have sent such a request to me. They may have. If they have, it will certainly receive consideration. My hon. friend is referring to a strike at Winnipeg in 1919 and a request for a royal commission to provide redress in the matter of pension rights. Is that it?


Mr. KNOWLES:: That is right.
81S
Business of the House


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I remember having had an experience somewhat similar of a strike in 1910 or 1911 when I was Minister of Labour, and we were unable to get redress for another twelve years, but we got it eventually. If any wrong has been done in this case I would hope that it might be remedied, even if it took forty years.


Stanley Howard Knowles: It is because of the terrific battle the Prime Minister put up on that occasion that the unions have appealed to him for this royal commission.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: The marriage is getting closer than ever.


CLOSING OF BEVERLEY MINES, EDMONTON DISTRICT
[Stage Direction]
On the . orders of the day:
Mr. W. F. KUHL (Jasper-Edson):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Munitions and Supply. I have a telegram from the local organization of the Alberta farmers' union in the district of Edmonton complaining that the Beverley Coal Mines in the Edmonton coal district, a mine from which most of the farmers there secure their coal, is being closed down. In view of the repeated appeal which the minister's department has made to the people of Canada to lay in their winter's supply of coal during the summer months, I would ask if he has been informed of the closing down of this coal mine, and if so, what steps he is taking in regard to the matter.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Speaker, I have no information about the closing down of the mine. The only thing that would close a mine down would be lack of an outlet for the coal. I hope that my hon. friend will advise those who have communicated with him to buy their coal early. We think that is important, both to the mining industry, and for the comfort of our citizens next winter.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Before we proceed with
government orders, perhaps the house will permit me to see if we understand clearly the procedure proposed for this afternoon. It was suggested last night, as I recollect it, that as the house might fee anxious to get the fullest information from the ministers of the various departments, it might be advisable to have the

Minister of Labour make his statement before discussion continues further on the Department of Munitions and Supply, and that following his statement the Minister of Veterans Affairs might make his statement, and following 'that any minister might be questioned on any matter in any order, if that is agreeable.


Gordon Graydon: May I make this observation
with respect to what the Prime Minister has just said? Last night the acting leader of the government, the Minister of Mines and Resources (Mr. Crerar) made mention of the possibility that a number of ministers might make statements to-day in connection with their departments. I raised objection because I did not think we should have statements made by ministers one after the other until we had first cleaned up the departments in which we were interested. It will not lbe agreeable to us-I say this in the most cooperative spirit- to have the Minister of Labour go on at the moment, because there are some matters in connection with the Department of Munitions and Supply that we would first like to have cleaned up. I know the Minister of Labour is very anxious to make his statement as soon as possible-if he is not, he ought to be; but in any event, as I pointed out last night, and this is no reflection in any way upon the Department of Labour, there are some urgent matters that we are anxious to take up with the Minister of Veterans' Affairs in connection with soldiers' rehabilitation, hospitalization, and so forth. If it could be arranged, it would be agreeable to us if the Minister of Veterans' Affairs would follow the discussion on the Department of Munitions and Supply with his statement, and then we might have questions, and then the Minister of Labour might make his statement. We are hopeful of giving the Minister of Labour an opportunity later on in the debate.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My purpose in rising was just to ascertain what would be the best order, and certainly if that order is preferable we will take the business in the order my hon. friend has just indicated.



WAR APPROPRIATION BILL


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Wednesday, April 11, consideration in committee of a resolution to grant to His Majesty certain sums of money for the carrying out of measures consequent upon the eedstence of a state of war_
Mr. Usley-Mr. Bradette in the chair.

War Appropriation-Munitions and Supply

["Before we adjourn we might stand as a mark of respect.\n(The members stood in a minute's silence.)\nMotion agreed to and the house adjourned at 8.15 p.m.\nFriday, April 13, 1945"]
The CHAIRMAN:: The hon. member for
Temiscouata.


Gordon Graydon: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Waterloo South was on his feet.
I saw him. I think that this list of speakers in the hands of the chairman must be subject to modifications from time to time. Now apparently the chairman has a list of speakers carried over from yesterday. It is bad enough to have a list of speakers in committee without having a list carried over from yesterday. May I suggest to the chairman that, with his usual fairness, he do not tie himself too closely to any list of speakers.	*


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Unlike the Speaker, I am not furnished by the whip with a list of speakers. Frequently a dozen members will get on their feet at once to address the committee, and as the leader of the opposition has stated, I always try to be fair and call upon speakers alternately from the different groups, without giving special privileges to any individual or to any group. At the present time I see the hon. member for Temiscouata.


Gordon Graydon: The hon. member for Waterloo South was on his feet and he evidently intends to say something. If past performances are any indication, he will have plenty to say and he will say it exceptionally well. I am not suggesting that any one member should be allowed an exceptional amount of time, but there should be some reasonable division amongst the different groups.


Mr. COLD WELL:: I was entirely unaware that there was anything in the nature of a list of speakers, and if that procedure is to continue I am afraid we shall be here a very long time. I think we should try to restrict the discussion, commensurately with a proper appraisal of the estimates. I heard what the Prime Minister suggested just now, and I am more or less in favour of it, but I wish to say something on reconstruction. The Minister of Reconstruction, however, is not on to-day and I do not propose to proceed; I will wait until the proper moment. I think we should try to keep to the subject at issue rather than to discuss all sorts of things altogether out of the picture, and if we are to have a list of speakers that is apt to happen.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: May I say to the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar that unlike the speaker the chairman has no Speaker's list from the whips indicating the order in which hon. members will speak, he is placed in a very difficult position at times when there
are ten or twelve members rising at once. I try to be fair and, generally speaking, I believe hon. members are satisfied with my recognition of speakers as I see them rise. I believe that the way I have dealt with this matter has always worked satisfactorily. In view of what the leader of the opposition has said, I think the hon. member for Waterloo South (Mr. Homuth) should be allowed to go on.


Mr. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: I realize, Mr. Chairman, that you must have some list before you if the discussion is to be orderly, but I did not know that a list had been prepared, and when there is such a list and members know nothing about it, there is apt to be confusion. While I have no objection to a list being prepared, I suggest that everyone should know about it; otherwise the business of the house is likely to be prolonged rather than curtailed. So long as we know that you have a prepared list and that we are going to get in on it in our proper order, that is all right; but I do not think it will expedite the business of the committee if there is a list that no one knows anything about.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: In rising to make a feiw
observations in regard to the Department of Munitions and Supply I do so because I feel that the people of Canada are not satisfied with the statement which the minister madie. There were so many things left unsaid and so many things that should have been said that were not given us by the minister. Naturally, when a war is on, many charges are made regarding profits, regarding contracts being let unfairly, and matters that create considerable unrest in the public mind. At the beginning of the war we heard many stories about go-betweens, those men who had little offices set up in the various cities of the country. There was no equipment or machinery, but they happened to have the ear of the government and were able to get contracts.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Name one.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: I will name them before I am through. You sit down.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Just smearing.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Many stories were current at the beginning of the war, and as the war went on, as the government became organized1, as the Department of Munitions and Supply was organized, we thought that those things would1 come to an end. Every time a member on the opposition side in this house raised certain questions with regard to the letting of contracts or the cost of
820	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Munitions and Supply
certain commodities, and started to criticize the government, they with their overwhelming majority yelled "sabotage" at those in the opposition and suggested that everything we were doing was intended to hurt the war effort. The fact of the matter was that many members sitting in the opposition who knew of certain things that were going on went to the departmental officials and told them the story and in every way tried to cooperate. We set up secret committees in this house, and sitting on those committees for a couple of years, I heard and saw nothing that could not have been given out to the public. In fact, I think that had it been given to>
the public, the public would have been much better satisfied, because they are quite prepared to accept the fact that governments are human. They are made up of human beings and can make mistakes. But it was that continual desire to hide things from the public of Canada that made the public suspicious.
We can remember the charges made with regard to the boots that were supplied to the army. Every paper in this country carried the story and blazed it forth in their pages, and the people of Canada began to wonder what type of boots were being supplied the Canadian Army. Whether there was any ground for these charges I am not prepared to say. Nevertheless, instead of having a public inquiry, instead of clearing the matter up and allowing the public to know the truth or otherwise of these charges, it was referred to a special private and secret committee, and the public never did hear the evidence in that regard. It is only natural that the public should become suspicious.
I could go on with many other matters.
I thought that the minister, when he spoke in the house, would refer to shipbuilding in Canada. Charges were made of the tremendous cost of building ships in one yard as compared with another. We hear rumours now that in the Toronto shipyard five or six ships have been scrapped, one ship that was about ninety per cent complete and another about sixty per cent complete, and they were scrapped because, as the story goes, these ships were no longer wanted. The story goes out that they are now bringing ships down from the north, the same kind of ships, to fill up the Toronto yard. I do not know whether it is true; I do not know whether they have changed prices on the building of ships in the various yards in Canada. The people of Canada are anxious to know what is the truth with regard to shipbuilding in the country and whether the tremendous

profits we knew they were making are being made to-day These are questions the people of Canada wonder about.
We read in the papers that a certain building in Windsor was rented at a fabulous rental running into hundreds of dollars per month when the original rental was $S9. There was public demand that this thing be investigated. It was investigated by the wartime prices and trade board and the rent was set back, even lower than it had been originally. But who knows the regulations with regard to rentals better than officials in the various departments of government? I can understand some man or woman owning a house and breaking the rental laws because of lack of knowledge of the law, but here are government officials who increase rentals 500 and 600 per cent and turn it over. Was it a friend of the government? I do not know. It makes people doubtful as to where their money is going.
We read now of a farm being purchased and there is a protest from the realty board at Windsor because of the tremendous price paid for it. Now they are investigating the matter. Here we are in the closing hours of the government-and it is the closing hour for this government; here we are at the beginning of the eighth war loan, and these things appear in the press, and people begin to wonder and wonder how their money is being spent, and whether the government is being as profligate with this money as we are led to believe it is-money which came out of the pockets of the people of Canada, which is taken out of the wages of the industrial workers of this country. We go and plead with them to buy war loans, we urge them to invest in victory bonds; and then they pick up the paper and read these things. I had thought that after five and a half years' experience, such conditions would have been cleared up and the contracts let by Munitions and Supply would have been based on a fair cost and a fair profit. Then there comes to my notice something which I think is one of the most scandalous deals in connection with the war effort. It does not involve millions of dollars, but if this is an example of what is being done in other branches and with other contracts, it is time for a very thorough investigation into these expenditures.
The government asked somebody, somehow, for a certain commodity which was to be used to pack war materials for overseas. A manufacturer in the city of Montreal was asked if he could supply certain materials. He said yes, it was in his line of business. He was asked to do this by another manufacturer

War Appropriation-Munitions and Supply
whose machinery was not equipped to handle the job, and, realizing that another manufacturer had made the inquiry and that he had to resell the product, he gave him. as close a price as possible, namely nine cents a pound, for this particular material. He then sold him some 400,000 pounds. Later he heard that the government was buying this type of material. He came to Ottawa to try to get a contract at the nine cents a pound at which the material had been sold for resale to the government. On his return to Montreal he was called on the telephone and told, "You have been in Ottawa; you have been interfering in this contract'. Keep your nose out of Ottawa, because you cannot do yourself any good there." Within a month his contract was gone; the business was lost to him.
What was actually happening? This man was making a material which he sold to another manufacturer for nine cents a pound; and a fellow with a little insurance agency in Montreal sold it to the government at "21 cents a pound. On the 400,000 pounds there was a profit of $48,000, on an investment of $36,000. The man who originally made the stock sent samples to the department and offered it at the price at which he was selling to this agent. They could not buy it because first it had to go through the research department, and it was two or three months in that department, and then the report came back that this stock could not be used because it was too inflammable. Yet it was the very stuff of which the government had bought 400,000 pounds at a profit of twelve cents a pound to the in-between.
I called up the department two weeks ago and asked them what they were doing about this matter. I told them the story, and I said, "Surely you will let me know what is going to happen. Surely you are not going to let a thing like this go on." That was nearly two and a half weeks ago. I have not heard anything yet.


Clarence Decatur Howe: With whom did you communicate in the department?


Karl Kenneth Homuth: I am not going to tell my hon. friend whom I called. My word is as good as that of anybody else in this house; and when I say I called someone in the department, I called somebody.


Clarence Decatur Howe: As head of the department I am interested to know.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Let me say this to the minister. For five years he and his colleagues have stood up in this house with their righteous dignity and their assurances that nothing could
go wrong in their war effort, and every time we have raised a point of criticism hon. members sitting over there cry "sabotage" and say, "You are trying to hurt the war effort." The truth of the matter is that they have been getting away with a lot of stuff which they had no right to get away with, and the time has come when we had better tell the truth.


Mr. CHEVRIER:: You have tried to prove a lot of that stuff, and you haven't succeeded.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: "Haven't succeeded"! There are a lot of things we could have proved, but we were sufficiently interested in the war that, instead of bringing scandal in the House of Commons, we went to departments and ministers and told them about it.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The hon. member will be subpoenaed on this case two days after parliament dissolves.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Why, listen! The Prime Minister threatened the people of Grey North, and you know what they did.


Clarence Decatur Howe: This is not a threat.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Let me say this to my hon. friend: I am quite willing to stake my seat on the basis that this is true.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It is in jeopardy anyhow.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: And let me say to the minister-


Clarence Decatur Howe: Your term will be over in two days anyway. That is a very safe offer from the bold lion from Waterloo.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Let me tell the minister I am also willing to gamble with him that this charge is true. I will bet my character against his, and I am giving him big odds. Surely the minister does not believe that the people of this country are dumb. The minister recently spoke at East Hamilton. He made a speech at a convention there, and during the course of his remarks what did he say? He said, "We have spent $319 million in Hamilton." The only impression that was left was that this government was so good to the hon. member for Hamilton East and to the other hon. member for Hamilton that it spent $319 million in that city. These were great members; they were fellows who were able to get $319 million spent there. The fact of the matter is that Hamilton has the industries to do the job. This is not Liberal money; this is money which comes out of the pocket of every loyal Canadian citizen. It is not the government's money to
S2'Z	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Munitions and Supply
spend; but it is our duty to see that it is spent properly; that is the thing we are interested in; and if my hon. friend wants to subpoena me when this session is over to give evidence in regard to this matter, I shall be glad to come, and he will not have to subpoena me either; I shall be only too glad to come. If the minister would set up a committee to-morrow we would go into it and prove that these things are true.


Lionel Chevrier: You have been making lots of charges, but you have never proved them yet.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: There speaks the inexperienced little boy from down in Northumberland.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Stormont.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Stormont. Northumberland is louder.


Lionel Chevrier: Stormont is at least accurate.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: The reason I bring these matters up is that I believe the minister was not fair to the people of Canada when he made his statement the other day. Many matters under the control of the Minister of Munitions and Supply have been agitating the minds of the people of this country, such as shipbuilding, boots and so on; and they would like to know if these things have been cleared up. Are ships still being built at a tremendous profit, or are they not? The people of Canada are entitled to know. We are on the verge of another victory loan. Let me say to my hon. friend that there is not a member of this house who works harder than I do to put over a victory loan. There is not a Liberal member of the house who would go out and put in as much time and effort during a victory loan as I do. I am prepared to do that; I am only too willing to do it, but I say that now, on the verge of the eighth victory loan, the people would like to have had some of these things cleared up that have been in the press across this country. They have not been cleared up, and I think the minister was unwise in not dealing with them.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Here we have a spectacle for the people of Canada. The loyal opposition in parliament have a duty to perform. That duty is to protect the public purse, to criticize the government, to see that moneys are well spent. Wie have been going through a time of war. The Department of Munitions and Supply has been spending money at a greater rate than it has ever been spent before in this country. We have been watching expendifMr Homuth.l
tures as carefully as we could. We have found one or two situations that had to be corrected, but we always found them ourselves; we have never had much outside help. We have investigated, and if there was wrongdoing those responsible were punished. Now we have a member, of the loyal opposition, paid by the people of the country to do a job, rising in the House of Commons and saying he knows of a case in which the public purse has been defrauded; that he has a pipeline into the department to someone there whom he refuses to disclose-and I know he has been using it quite freely-


Karl Kenneth Homuth: I rise to a point of order.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Sit down.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: I rise to a point of order. Sit down.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I will not sit down.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Sit down where you belong.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Order.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: I stand on my rights as
a member. I rise to a point of order.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I rose to make a statement,
and I demand the right to do so.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: I rise to a point of order, as is my privilege.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Order. I believe it is
left to the discretion of the hon. gentleman who is speaking whether he is ready or willing to answer any question addressed to him. The hon. member for Waterloo South will have ample opportunity to raise his point of order when the minister has made a statement.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Mr. Chairman-


Clarence Decatur Howe: The chairman has ruled.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: I rise to a point of order,
and I have a right to do so at any time at all.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I have given my ruling on the point. The hon. gentleman knows very well that when a minister is making a statement he has the floor, and it is left to him to say whether or not he will answer any questions that are addressed to him.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: He has no more right in
this house than I have.


Gordon Graydon: May I just intervene,
Mr. Chairman, and point out that I believe it is a well established rule that any hon. member-


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, sir.


Gordon Graydon: Just a moment; that any hon. member may rise at any time on a point of order or a question of privilege. That point of order or question of privilege must

War Appropriation-Munitions and Supply
be submitted to the Chair, and the chairman then rules upon it. That is one of the inalienable rights of a member of parliament, or at least it has been ever since I have been in the house. I can quite understand that perhaps the minister does not want to be interrupted, but it is a rule of the house and I think it is only proper that it should be observed.


Clarence Decatur Howe: A point of order is one thing and an interruption is another. The hon. member for Waterloo South is simply trying to interrupt me.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: I am raising a point of order.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: When an hon. gentleman is making a statement he is allowed to proceed unless he gives permission to another hon. member to ask questions.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: No. The minister-


Clarence Decatur Howe: Sit down.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: I will not sit down. The minister said I had a private pipeline into his department, and I want him to withdraw that statement.


Clarence Decatur Howe: You said so yourself. Name your pipeline. You said you were in touch with a man in my department, and you refused to disclose his name. Is that a private pipeline, or is it not? I ask you to rule upon that, Mr. Chairman.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: There is nothing on which to rule. I would remind the committee that we are reaching a stage when the situation is becoming really serious, and we should be able to get down to earth and go ahead with the work.


Mr. GRANT:: Put him out.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: You come over and try it. I rise to a point of order.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I have ruled that the minister has the floor. That is the ruling.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Then if you are a cabinet minister you can do as you like in the House of Commons; if you are not, you can't.


Clarence Decatur Howe: As I said when I started to speak, Mr. Chairman, I do think the Department of Munitions and Supply could have had a little more help from the opposition. Our department had a dinner last evening, and I commented upon the fact that in the hundreds of thousands of orders we have put through we found but very few cases of wrongdoing or attempted profiteering; and we always had the job of finding and cleaning
them up ourselves. Three committees have been investigating the department from time to time. I have read their reports carefully, looking for any suggestion of anything off colour that we could clean up, but I have yet to find in those reports any situation that was not known to us many months before, and that had not been taken care of before the report was brought down. What has been the contribution of the opposition to the work of those committees? There has been one debate after another in the House of Commons as to whether or not the reporters should be allowed in the committee. That has been their contribution. I think that will have to be explained to the people if hon. gentlemen opposite are going to try to bring out any suggestions of laxity while on the hustings. My hon. friend is confessing that he knew about wrongdoing, the misappropriation of government money, and kept the knowledge to himself.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: I said I called your department.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Clarence Decatur Howe: He knows of a case of wrongdoing. We have the machinery to recover that money; we are renegotiating contracts every day, but he refuses to tell who got government money improperly and illegally. He has made a charge which he refuses to substantiate. If that is statesmanship, then I say the hon. member for Waterloo South is a better man that I have ever given him credit for being.


Jean-François Pouliot: Last evening I asked the minister a few questions, some of which he answered; but I am afraid that in spite of what has appeared in the newspapers the minister is not at all familiar with what goes on in his department. There are some good men in it. His parliamentary assistant is one of them. He is one of the most popular ot our colleagues; he is gifted and a gentleman, something that is appreciated. There are others who are good men, and some who are not; that is a matter of opinion. Last evening I asked the minister if Mr. Henry Borden, K.C., of Toronto had been on the board of Barclays bank when he was counsel to the Department of Munitions and Supply, and coordinator of controls, and chairman of the war industrial control board. At page 806 of Hansard the minister was very definite, when he said:
His services with the department antedate my own. I can say to my hon. friend that Mr. 824	COMMONS
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Borden had no relationship with Barclays Bank until after he terminated all association with the department.
Mr. Pouliot: But-
Mr. Howe: Sit down. I am speaking.
Mr. Pouliot: I will take no orders from the minister, only from the chairman.
Mr. Howe:	Mr. Borden was appointed a
director of Barclays Bank after he had terminated all association with the Department of Munitions and Supply..
Three times the rooster was heard. I have so much confidence in parliamentary institutions that I had the deep conviction that a minister would never dare to speak through his hat when answering a member of parliament in the house. This morning I got trucks of books from the library-big books, and especially several issues of the Bankers' Almanac and Year Book made and printed in Great Britain. In that part which relates to international banks and kindred firms I find in the issue of 1938-39, page 700, that Barclays bank (Canada) is situated at '214 St. James Street West, Montreal, and the directors are listed as: A. A. Magee, K.C., president; H. A. Stevenson, vice-president; Hon. L. A. Taschereau, LL.D., K.C.; Sir John Caulcutt, K.C., M.G.; W. 0. Stevenson; J. S. Crossley; C. S. Macdonald, M.A.; Henry Borden, K.C.; J. L. Ralston, K.C. and general manager, H. A. Stevenson. This establishes well enough that Mr. Borden was in the bank, not after but before he was associated with the department. The issue of 1939-40, at page 700, gives the same information. In the issue of 1940-41 we find at page 686 that R. J. Magor replaced Colonel J. L. Ralston, K.C. That was when he became a member of the government of Canada for the second time. The issue of 1941-42, at page 687, gives the same information as is contained in the 1940-41 issue. The issue of 1942-43, at page 685, gives the same directors as in 1940-41-42. The issue of 1943-44 gives the same directors, with the exception of Sir John Caulcutt, K.C., M.G., and R. J. Magor, and with the addition of J. H. G. F. Yale. Then, last fall, Colonel Ralston came back to the board again.
But I was not satisfied with that. I was still under the impression that the minister was right and I was wrong, and that the Bankers' Almanac and Year Book was also wrong. I then looked into "Who's Who in Canada," where I found the information that Henry Borden was a director of Barclays Bank (Canada) in 1936-37. That information was contained at page 200. Ditto for 1938-39 at page 118; ditto for 1940-41 at page 324 and ditto for 1943-44 at page 512. And there was contained on the same page, and in the same issue, this information:

General counsel, Department of Munitions and Supply, Ottawa, 1939-42, appointed chairman wartime industries control board, Ottawa, and coordinator of controls Department of Munitions and Supply, September, 1942, resigned 1943.
In the Financial Post Directory of Canadian Directors for 1941, at page 40,1 find that Henry Borden, K.C., was described as general counsel, Department of Munitions and Supply, Ottawa, and director of Barclays Bank (Canada).
I am sending this fine copy to the minister, and the other one to Hansard.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It seems I was wrong in my
statement last night. I found out this morning that I was wrong and I am glad my hon. friend has corrected me.


Jean-François Pouliot: I am satisfied the minister admits that, after I have proved to him that he was wrong. This is an acknowledgment. Let him remember that it is always dangerous to speak through one's hat. And as I am here to-day, I will try to be just as expeditious as possible.
As the minister has answered wrongly the question I put to him yesterday I shall be under the painful obligation of answering my own questions. This is the first time in the history of parliament that a member has had to answer his own questions because of the unwillingness of the government to do so. I hold in my hand a return which was passed on March 22. Some of these questions I can answer, and others I hope will be answered in due course by the government. These are the questions:
1.	Was Colonel Allan Angus Magee, K.C., employed by the dominion government since the beginning of this war?
Answer: Yes.
2.	If so, in what department, under what cabinet minister, in what particular capacity and for how long?
Answer:	In the Department of National
Defence, under Colonel Ralston, as military adviser-not financial adviser, but military; and just as long as he could have been after Pouliot's denunciation.
3.	How much was paid to him each year for salary, and for living and travelling expenses?
Answer: No information yet.
4.	Was he and is he still the president of Barclays Bank (Canada) Limited, and of Barclay Trust Company of Canada?
Answer: Yes.
5.	Was there any other president of a Canadian chartered bank who was a dollar-a-year man ?
Answer:	No.
6.	If so, who?
Answer:	Answered by No. 5.

IFar Appropriation-Munitions and Supply
7.	Was Mr. Henry Borden, K.C., employed by the dominion government since the beginning of this war?
Answer:	Yes.
8.	If so, in what department, in what particular capacity and for how long each time?
Answer : Already stated in the first part of my remarks.
9.	What were the duties and responsibilities of each one of the positions referred to in No. 8?
Answer: To secure as much influence as possible to fatten his own legal firm and to collect plenty of electoral funds.
10.	Was he a director of Barclays Bank (Canada) Limited, and, if so, since when?
Answer: Since a few years before the war.
I have some other questions here which I asked the minister, and which were answered wrongly. This is what the minister said:
As for Mr. Godsoe. he came into the department later on. It so happened that he succeeded Mr. Borden in the work he was doing rvhen Mr. Borden retired from the department. There is no connection whatever and never has been any connection between Mr. Godsoe and his work and Mr. MacDonell-
I did not say "Mr. MacDonell"; I said Mr. MacDonald.
-as suggested by my hon. friend. They worked for different firms, and so far as I know one was not on the board of the other firm, nor was there any connection.
I must explain that. This is a family gathering. There is Magee, who is president of Barclays bank, and Colonel Ralston's adviser, and C. S. MacDonald, chartered accountant, and president of the Confederation Life Association of Toronto. He is Magee's brother-in-law, and MacDonald was a director of Barclays bank under President Magee-.


Mr. BLACKMORE:: Colonel	Ralston's
brother-in-law, do you mean?


Jean-François Pouliot: No, MacDonald is the brother-in-law of Magee. This is a little genealogical intermission. He was a director of Barclays bank and a son-in-law of Mr. Justice Magee, the father of Colonel Magee. And Mr. Joseph Gerald Godsoe, who is now chairman of wartime industries control board, and coordinator of controls, holds the former position of Henry Borden and is assistant general manager and solicitor for the Confederation Life Association. Last fall Colonel Ralston was elected to the board of Barclays bank (Canada) to replace MacDonald.
I cannot understand why the minister said that Mr. MacDonald and Mr. Godsoe worked for different firms. The fact is that they work
for the same company; Mr. MacDonald is president and Mr. Godsoe is the assistant general manager and solicitor. This has some bearing because Mr. Godsoe comes from the Burchell law firm in Halifax, the old Burchell and Ralston firm. This coordinator of controls was a co-director in Barclays bank with the former minister of national defence. His successor as coordinator of controls also comes from that same law office. The head of that firm is Mr. Charles Burchell. The firm was known as Maclean, Burchell and Ralston from 1912 to 1922 and Burchell and Ralston from 1922 to 1926. This is ignored by the parties who made up the answer to the return. Apparently they do not know what is a law office. I asked if he had been appointed high commissioner to Australia, Newfoundland and South Africa and, if so, when. The answer given was:
Australia, November, 1939.
Newfoundland, September, 1941.
South Africa, March, 1944.
Godsoe has an assistant as coordinator of controls. Surprising to say he also comes from the firm of Burchell and Ralston; he was a partner of Burchell and Ralston when they were practising together but that is ignored by the department. The whole business of the country is controlled by the firm of Burchell and Ralston or by their former partners who have every information and who are the controllers of the controllers in the Department of Munitions and Supply.
But that is not all. The former minister of national defence has an office in Montreal. He moved there from his native province when he was defeated by 3,000 in his own county and later on in the capital city of his native province by the same number of votes. He moved to Montreal where he was in partnership with a man named Kearney, who is now High Commissioner for Canada in Ireland. That is one of the most cosmopolitan places in the whole world. In that country our enemies have ambassadors just the same as the allied countries. Then Ralston junior was looked after, but I will not go into that in detail as he is a minor quantity.
All this shows that the people who were telling us that they were making such a sacrifice during the war were thinking of their own private interests and were practising nepotism to the highest degree. In fact this man Burchell has been gathering information in Newfoundland and South Africa and Australia while Kearney has been able to have contacts with the enemy, just the same as it is done in the bank of international settlements by Montagu Norman and Sir Otto Niemeyer
826	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Munitions and Supply
who would shake hands under the table with representatives of the enemy. This is a serious matter. It is a matter of international finance. When I am driving my car and I see an obstacle in the way, I do not make a speech to that obstacle; I stop my car, remove the obstacle and proceed on my way. In my humble view it is high time for the members of parliament- to act likewise. The conditions that now prevail are the same as the conditions that prevailed on February 21, 1941, when I denounced the conspiracy that was going on. The political plot of April, 1945, is much worse than th-e powder plot at Westminster.
On February 21, 1941, I rose in my former place to the right of Mr. Speaker and to the right- of you, Mr. Chairman. You were in the chair on that occasion and you proved that you respected the British traditions of fairness and true parliamentary practice by not intervening when I expressed the feelings I had in my heart regarding the situation. At that time I said, as reported on page 896 of Hansard of February 21, 1941:
The air is thick and unbreathable. I have never witnessed such backstage intrigue as there is now in high quarters. I am disgusted with the ways in which intrigue is being carried on in the holy name of patriotism when we know that behind it is a group of scoundrels, buccaneers, racketeers, pirates, who are trying to get hold of Canada's wealth for their own purposes. It is hateful; and whether it comes from Winnipeg, Vancouver, Toronto or this city of Ottawa, it is no less shameful. We do not want to see the few enriched at the expense of the many.
And I added:
I do not hate Tories, but I hate Toryism, especially under the guise of Liberalism.
On May 10, 1943, at pages 2511 and following of Hansard, it will be seen that I exposed the personnel of Barclays Bank (dominion, colonial and overseas). That is all in the record there. There are many things worse than the grabbing of all jobs by the few; it is the government of the few rich who want to be always richer. That is a plutocratic oligarchy. There are many who are behind the scenes, who are behind the curtain, who are plotting now just the same as they were plotting in 1941. What do they want? They want power. They want the power to control our natural resources. We have reached the point where the common man is wondering who is holding the strings that make the government move.
I was sorry at the intrigue that was carried on in 1941 against the leaded of the Liberal party who was then my leader. I remember that Liberals were scandalized when I spoke
fMr. Pouliot.]
as I did, but to their surprise two or three days afterward they heard my lamented friend, the former minister of justice, say the same thing. After one of the press agencies had sent out the dispatch containing the denunciation of the union government made by the member for Temiscouata it was acknowledged that no union government would be possible, even before the late Mr. Lapointe had spoken. Now, sir, we are in exactly similar circumstances. The Prime Minister of Canada is no more my leader. But when I disagreed with him I told him what I thought. I spoke to him sincerely. And was I not right, sir, in what I said in February, 1941? It took four years to acknowledge that I was right, but the facts are there. I regret to have been right in speaking as I did.
Now there is considerable intrigue to supplant the Prime Minister, and that intrigue is carried on by some men who are in his confidence, by some men who are near him, by some men who are entrusted with his secrets, by some men who play a double game, who act as Tories when they call themselves Liberals. I am not impressed by masks; I do not believe in political masquerades, and when we see men who are supposed to be leaders of the Liberal party but who are Tories at heart, men who have a sovereign contempt for our parliamentary institutions, carrying on intrigues of that sort I feel sorry for the Prime Minister although I disagree with him on many points. Those men have been made by the Prime Minister, and when I think of the two last ministers who resigned, the former minister of national defence (Mr. Ralston) and the minister for air (Mr. Power), I tell you, sir, that they are the last two that should have resigned and that all the ministers from Quebec should have resigned except those two because the Prime Minister has always been so kind to them; he has always protected them, and they have inspired his policies together. Both were joint ministers of the Department of National Defence. Both at times have been acting minister of the department now under consideration. They have not been fair. They have not been grateful to the Prime Minister, and the people who may think that they have acted as they did for the reasons that were given in the press are greatly mistaken.
I will not put the former minister for air in the same category with the former minister for national defence. But what I tell you, sir, and what I tell, through Hansard, the Prime Minister, a man who deserves respect on account of the high position he holds and a man who deserves from his close friends

, War Appropriation-Munitions and Supply
something better than treason-I warn the Prime Minister to beware. In the past he *did not believe me when I was dotting the i's and crossing the t's. Now I warn him once more in this chamber and I mention facts that are known by all those who open their eyes to see and open their ears to listen.
I't is saddening to observe that at the end *of his career a man who has surrounded himself with colleagues and been kind to them, a man who has given them every opportunity to make themselves well and favourably known to the Canadian people, who has supplied' them with the steps to obtain power, is about to be stabbed in the back precisely by those whom he considers to be his friends. The same thing happened, under a Conservative government, when mention was made of a traitors' nest. We have a traitors' nest to-day. It is a group of men in politics and outside of politics who want to take control of this country. I regret to have to say things like this to-day. On two occasions I moved in this house for an extension of the life of parliament. It was precisely because what I say to you now, sir, I wanted to say after the victory loan and after the San Francisco conference, to give the Prime Minister the opportunity to go there with a free mind. But now whom can he trust? I know that he has a few true friends in the cabinet, but some others are watching to step into his shoes. Perhaps his shoes will be too big for them. Nevertheless their ambition is never satisfied'. They are ready to commit that kind of murder which is called patricide- kill their father. As an old member of parliament I have been the witness of incredible events, but I say that the feelings of the Canadian people have been so. much aroused by so much intrigue that the situation has become intolerable and the matter must be aired now. Are we to have a plutocratic oligarchy in this country? Shall this country be run by fascists? As I stated four years ago, it was easy to see that the movement for fascism was growing, not in the country, but in the minds of certain people who wanted to take this country over for themselves.
Sir, you know of some monsters with tentacles that sometimes reach far. These tentacles are many. But the monster has only one head, and in that case each tentacle wants to be the head, to succeed' the Prime Minister, to pass over his dead body to the presiding seat of the council chamber. It is sad, it is unfortunate, but it is the most serious because if there is one thing that invites communism it is precisely that attitude of some men who want to have everything for themselves-water power, railways, transportation by air and by boat, banks, everything. They want control of everything and they do not realize that injustice cannot prevail forever. The Canadian people cannot be dispossessed of their legitimate rights.


Mr. McIVOR:: Last evening the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) and the hon. member for Selkirk (Mr. Bryce) paid an outstanding tribute to the minister. Perhaps they did not intend it as a tribute, but to me it was an outstanding tribute that all the fault that could be found with the minister was what they thought was discourtesy in the matter of receiving a delegation. My experience with the minister has been that if my cause is just and fair he will hear me, and he will anyone else, in a courteous way, and you will go places with him.
I would pay my tribute to the minister first for the men he chooses to help him in his great task of building up his department. He selected a man whom I considered as straight and honest and efficient as any man in this house, even though he was a Conservative in the last house. I mean the gentleman who was defeated in the city of Hamilton last election and who was placed in a key position to watch contracts.
I do not forget that when the war broke out I could see contractors from different parts of the country buzzing around the halls in Ottawa. I was buttonholed by a contractor from Montreal who said to me, "What is the matter with the government anyway?" I replied, "What is the matter with it?" He said then, "You cannot get anywhere in getting a contract from that man Howe." I said to him, "No, not unless the contract is thoroughly investigated and everyone gets the same chance."
I think it is one of the outstanding feats in the Dominion of Canada that thirteen billions should have been spent in the way in which that money has been spent. I do not know how much thirteen billion dollars is. I know what $100 is, or $1,000, but when it comes to a million and hundreds of millions and thirteen billions my imagination cannot take it in. But thirteen billions, and not one dollar of graft can be put down to the government, thanks to the members of the opposition and of the government who gave their services in that committee to investigate war expenditures. If anything was found that was wrong the Minister of Justice was called in as well as the mounted police, and even though the offenders might be Liberals they were taken to the
S28	COMMONS
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courts and lost their contract and paid their fine. I think the city of Port Arthur would do itself proud, and it would be an honour to the people there, if they elected the minister by acclamation, because he has earned it from all the people across Canada and especially from the head of the lakes.
I am not going to advise the people of Port Arthur because I know they have good sense and when they have a good member they will know how to hold on to him. When the minister comes back after the election I have two or three suggestions to make, one of which he can start on now, namely that the manufacturing that is going, on at the head of the lakes, Port Arthur and . Fort William, shall get an equal share of all contracts whether in the city of Montreal or in Toronto or anywhere else. Another thing the minister should keep in mind when he comes back is that the great lakes waterways should be opened up, and the third thing is the opening up of the transcanada highway, so that the people of the east who know nothing or very little about the west, and who have not seen particularly the beauties that are to be found at the head of the lakes, can get into their cars and drive along the highway and find out for themselves.
I pay my tribute to the minister because he knows how to treat labour. I represented a delegation in Fort William who did not come to Ottawa because they felt I could put their views before the minister. The Canada Car Union 719 wanted holidays with pay. What did the minister do? He was the first to put it across in Canada. The next thing they wanted was cooperation between the management and the unions and it is now a law in Canada. Because of the minister's fellow feeling for the man who has to toil I pay him that tribute. If ever I get a chance to say a word in Port Arthur it will be said, and it will be said not only by me but by others.
When hon. gentlemen/try to find fault with the Department of Munitions and Supply they cannot find one dollar that has been misspent, or one man that has enriched his own coffers-and remember the minister is dealing with human nature as well, and there are many people who like to make a killing even out of the war. But not with the Minister of Munitions and Supply. When he comes back after the election as Minister of Reconstruction I expect he will carry on in the same way and hew to the line, and woe betide the man who wants to make a big profit.


Mr. ROY:: Resuming my speech of yesterday, I will complete the last part of my

expose. I will complete the .point I was making to show why I oppose this resolution. My remarks to-day will start where I left off yesterday. This pronouncement of Mr. Lapointe is very clear and formal-


Clarence Decatur Howe: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, is what the hon. gentleman is saying relevant to the subject before the Chair?


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I will hear what the hon.. gentleman says before deciding whether his remarks are in order or not. I do not wish to have to repeat to-day, what I said yesterday, that I hope hon. members will keep strictly to the subject under discussion.


Joseph Sasseville Roy: I quote from page 2419 of Hansard of the session of 1939:
Assuming, it is urged, that Canadians like other people will put their own interests first, what do our interests demand, what amount of knight errantry abroad do our resources permit? Canada, it is contended, is not a country of unlimited powers: it has not the capacity to stand indefinite strains. We have tremendous tasks to do at home, in housing the people, in caring for the aged and helpless, in relieving drought and unemployment, in building roads, in meeting our heavy burden of debt, in making provision for Canada's defence, and in bringing our standards of living and civilization to the levels our knowledge now makes possible. There is no great margin of realizable wealth for this purpose; we must, to a greater or less extent, choose between keeping our own house in order, and trying to save Europe and Asia.
Just think of this statement and bear in mind that Canada has spent some twenty-five billion dollars for war purposes since 1939 and you cannot but hold your head in your hands. The next day the then Minister of Justice, Mr. Lapointe, made this statement as reported at page 2468 of Hansard of the session of 1939:
We are not alone in that view. Australia has always been against conscription, South Africa will never have conscription. Ireland would never have conscription. I think I am true to my concept of Canadian unity when I say that I shall always fight against that policy. I would not be a member of a government that would enact it-


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Order. I know the hon. member for Gaspe would be the last man to try to break the rules. Surely the issue of conscription cannot be dealt with under the department which is before the committee at the present time, the Department of Munitions and Supply; and I know it is possible for the hon. member to keep within the orbit of that discussion which would be conducive to more dexterity in the discussion.


Joseph Sasseville Roy: I have to-day asked the Clerk ' of the House if the resolution which was called by the Clerk after the orders of the day was

War Appropriation-Munitions and Supply
before the committee as a whole resolution; and he said, "You are in order in making your point as to why you oppose it."


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The Chairman controls this committee.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: On the point of order, permit me to say that it has already been ruled, and that that ruling seemed to have been accepted, that the discussion should be limited to the department whose minister's statement was then before the committee. That rule was accepted by the whole committee for at least the last four years, and wrhen a department was before the committee what was discussed was this or that item relating to that department. I believe that rule has been followed very closely by every hon. member, and I know it is also the intention of the hon. member for Gaspe to observe a rule which was readily and loyally accepted by all hon. members.


Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: Since the minister made his statement on Monday that there was a shortage of building materials he has, I understand, given some undertaking to Windsor and Brantford with regard to housing. I should like him to tell us what that is. I wish also to inform him that in the city of Peterborough we have an extremely serious situation as far as housing goes, and it will be a hundred times worse after the first of May. I know of cases where mothers of men overseas are to be put out of their homes at that time; they have had due notice, of course, that the owners are taking over the property. In one case two boys have been returned wounded and the mother will have no place for them. This condition affects not only members of the armed forces who are returning with their wives, but also men and women in the munition plants and others. Has the minister anything to say as regards materials, whether any increases will be available, and as to the labour situation? In the case of Windsor and Brantford the minister said something, I believe, about releasing men to do building. In the Peterborough district it will be useless merely to give that order, because most of our building men, carpenters and masons, are in the armed forces, and many have given their lives. There is also a shortage of bricklayers. Quite a few houses remain unfinished because it has not been possible to get brick and other proper material to finish them. I have a letter from the city of Peterborough, a copy of which I believe was received by the minister, stating that there are a hundred people there financially able and willing to build houses if they can
get material, labour and manpower. Will the minister make a statement on this matter, because it is really serious? I know that a house which was originally occupied by one family now contains nine families, although there are only three bedrooms. Every bit of space has been used. There is a family even in the attic, which I saw, and which has a roof only about five and a half feet from the floor. Not only is there absolutely no vacant houses in the city but there is none in the rural sections; all houses are occupied.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I agree with my hon. friend that there is a serious shortage of houses. The department has been giving attention to it. We have made the manufacture qf building materials a first priority. We have laid out a programme to provide material for at least 35,000 houses; and if we can increase the figure to 50,000 we shall do so. We shall attempt to direct the material to the areas which need it most. It is true, I believe, that in the cases of Brantford and Windsor I said that if arrangements could be made by the builders to organize themselves so that we could order in fairly sizable lots, I would direct material there for a certain specified number of houses. I would be very glad to extend that offer to Peterborough and to any other centre.
The difficulty about routing material into a point for the building of houses is to concentrate such operation. A contractor may build six or eight houses in a season, and there may be a great many contractors who are in the habit of buying in small lots retail from hardware stores. It is hard to serve that sort of trade by directing material; but if the builders in the hon. member's area could be induced to club together and buy in lots of material for fifty houses, that could be handled more easily.
We are most anxious to do everything we can to facilitate the construction of houses where they are most needed. The one thing we cannot manufacture is men, and manpower is the root of all the difficulty in housing. Men are needed to man the brickyards and the malleable iron foundries. We are short of brick and soil pipe because we are short of men to work in the various parts of manufacture which are the backlog of home building. Then, of course, there is a shortage of men to do the actual work in the field. This is a situation not peculiar to Canada. Britain, where so many houses have been destroyed, has a far, far worse situation than ours. There is some improvement here in conditions; we have built more houses in each of the last two or three years
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than were built in any pre-war year, but we have to do very much better than that to put our housing situation in shape. It is a difficult problem, and I ask the cooperation of every hon. member to try to organize matters in his district so that the department may be of the maximum help in meeting the problem.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: In Toronto, has not wartime housing put up brick houses?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Well, was there not an agreement with some society or builders' group in Toronto that they could have brick houses?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There has been an arrangement in effect, I believe, for the last three or four years that if we could get applications for fifty houses we would give priority ratings on the materials for those fifty houses. That may be what my hon. friend refers to. The building of any house with brick in the city of Toronto is by private investment, not government operation. We are able, as I have said, to help the builder of fifty houses when it is physically impossible to help to the same degree the builder of six houses. It is just a matter of numbers. With a group of a hundred houses we could help matters more than with fifty houses.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: If
Peterborough or any of these other cities could say, "We want fifty houses", and if they got together on that basis, what would they do to claim the material?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Club together, get their
material lists, and tell us to whom to ship material. For instance, pick out dealers to handle each type of material and let us ship out carload lots of materials for fifty houses to one dealer who will serve these contracts.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: To serve them all?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The construction control department would ease up on their permits so that they would go through for those houses?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is no difficulty about
permits. There may be a little delay, because we are absolutely swamped with permits this year. During the last month they have come in faster than the department can handle them; I think about a thousand a day are being received. However, we are putting on extra staff

and will cope with the situation shortly. I do-not think there is any difficulty about permits, up to the number we think we can build this year. My hon. friend will appreciate that we do not want the permits to get too far ahead of the building materials; otherwise people are put to extra expense for no useful purpose.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I
realize that, and the permit offices have been very kind to me. I think they have put through all the permits we have asked for.


Lionel Chevrier: You are very fortunate.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yours is a distressed housing area, and we do favour those areas.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Yes,
it is. Before I sit down I should like to ask the minister a question arising out of a return I received to-day, in reference to trucks, particularly six-wheel trucks. These trucks are particularly suitable for snow removal, and I should like to know whether they were sold to municipalities. That is not shown here; it shows trucks sold to Defence Industries Limited and other industrial concerns, and to two towns. Do you try to have those trucks go to municipalities? Perhaps this question should come up in connection with the War Assets Corporation.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Is my hon. friend referring t-o-used trucks?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Yes,
they are used trucks.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am not sure, but I think the vehicles controller tries to put them into the hands of those who need them most. I believe municipalities rank highest on the list, with the exception of provinces. We try to distribute them fairly evenly across Canada, so that they are not all sold in one locality.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: There was quite a demand for these trucks this year, on account of the heavy snowfall.
I should like to ask one other question in regard to new motor cars that have been in storage. I ask the question because a month or so ago I was in the basement of a large dealer in motor cars, where a number of new automobiles were stored. They were packed in bumper to bumper. I opened the only car door that could be opened, and my nostrils were greeted with a very musty smell. Are these cars checked by your department to see that the upholstery, in particular, is not allowed to deteriorate? I am afraid that will happen in some of these places unless they are checked.

__________War Appropriation-Munitions and Supply


Clarence Decatur Howe: The few cars we have are
stored with dealers; that is about the only place we can store them. If there is deterioration while they are in the hands of the dealer, that is a matter for the dealer. They must 'be delivered as new cars, and any mouldy upholstery must be replaced. I do not think we can inspect the storage places. The dealers are charged with the care of these cars, and I think it is up to the dealers to look after them.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Are
these new cars sold only to doctors?


Clarence Decatur Howe: For essential services. The
pool is getting very small now, and we must protect our essential services.


Thomas Langton Church: Coming from one of the principal industrial districts of Canada, I wish to say a few words in connection with this department. I appreciate what it has done during the war. I think every Canadian rejoices in the fact that Canada has become such a highly industrialized country and has made such a great contribution. It is true that some mistakes have been made, but mistakes are bound to occur in every war.
I wish to refer briefly to four matters: coal, power, housing and reconstruction. I have had no politics since the war started, except the winning of the war; and I do not know of anyone on this side of the house who has had any politics. I can say to my hon. friends on this side of the house that it was the Conservatives who first advocated a national fuel supply, and it was the Conservatives who were responsible for the Duncan commission and report. I remember the debate in this house in the middle twenties, lasting two days, on my resolution regarding constitutional, cabinet and parliamentary reform; and within a few days the late minister of justice, Mr. Lapointe, announced that he was appointing a royal commission to go into these matters as they concerned the maritime provinces.
I come now to the coal question. I lived through" the last war, and I saw the grave dangers that could arise through scarcity of coal. From the Conservative benches I brought the matter to the attention of the house immediately after my election for the then constituency of North Toronto, which at that time took in most of the city of Toronto north of Bloor street, from the Don almost to the Humber. My proposal then was for a national coal supply for this country, and that matter was discussed in the house for six or seven years in succession. The first debate took place on Monday, March 19, 1923, when
the Conservatives proposed through me the policy which is at present the policy of hon. gentlemen opposite, althpugh at that time they opposed it for four or five years. The two great central provinces of Ontario and Quebec for many years depended at first for fuel upon the wood cut in the northern parts of the provinces and some peat. Then, with the development of the country generally they used anthracite coal largely in these provinces, and later at country fairs and exhibitions stoves were exhibited and anthracite coal came [DOT] to be used.
I have always advocated a national coal supply. I saw the trouble we had in regard to coal during the last war. I remember when it was sold a bag at a time; that was all the fuel you could get. Before the United States came into the last war we were pictured in the great newspapers of that country as the country of the snows, as a country sitting on the sidelines and begging for a lump of coal. We were looked upon as a Lazarus, trying to beg for a few bits of coal, while at the same time we were exporting power to the United States. The first resolution moved and considered for three days, March 19, 1923, in connection with a national coal supply provided for a national policy, under which no part of Canada would be left dependent upon the United States. It requested that the house should immediately consider the initiation of an all-Canadian and British coal supply, in the best interests of Canada. A committee of the house was appointed, presided over by the present chairman of the royal commission on coal, at that time an able young lawyer and now Mr. Justice Carroll of the supreme Court of Nova Scotia. That committee reported favourably to the house, with the result that after three or four years a subsidy was proposed of SI a ton on coal coming from the maritimes.
In connection with the harbour improvements the late prime minister of Great Britain, Mr. Stanley Baldwin, built a large industry at Ashbridge's Bay for the manufacture of granite plates and things of that kind. This coal policy was supported by a great newspaper in Toronto, the Evening Telegram, which at that time reported the proceedings of the house almost verbatim. I suppose we cannot expect anything like that, owing to war conditions. That newspaper did a great deal to make the people of this country realize the necessity of developing a national policy in connection with fuel. Last winter was quite severe, and we all know the difficulty we had in getting fuel. We had to take a
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mixed supply, and the coal we got would not heat our houses, let alone our industries, hospitals and so on.
There was a long debate on this subject, and I will mention only three or four of the matters which were discussed. Reference was made to the transportation problem, because between the two wars the coal question was largely a matter of transportation. I declared in favour of bringing Alberta coal down to the head of the lakes, and developing a national coal supply for this country, from Wales, the maritimes and Alberta. Ships could have been built to bring coal from the maritime provinces to central Canada. I plead with the minister to consider the use of wooden ships, because the ships built at the foot of Bathurst street were of great use, not only in transporting coal from Wales and the maritimes, but for other purposes as well. In the last war, in 1917, I saw from Swansea, Wales, ships tied up at the Ashbridge's Bay docks, carrying granite plates and coal from the Baldwin plant in Toronto.
We hope something will be done to develop this policy further. For several months of the year we are completely dependent upon a supply of coal. I shall not discuss that matter in detail, but I hope that some day the question will be debated at length in the house. It has been under discussion for years. Then, finally, just before an election, the government voted a subsidy of $1 a ton on coal for the maritimes.
There is always a friendly attitude among the people of Ontario toward the people of the maritimes and the west and in fact the same feeling exists throughout the country. It was found that the coal of both the east coast and the Alberta mines was suitable for the production of oil, and I made the suggestion in 1923 in that coal debate that oil pipelines should be built from the west to Ontario, so that there might be a further development of the oil and coal industry in the prairie provinces. This suggestion was made many years ago. At that time I urged to have a better deal both for the miners and for the owners of the mines. A condition of that kind is absolutely necessary, and such a policy is in the best interests of confederation.
At that time, when the matter of coal was being discussed, a question of freight rates arose. The time is coming, soon after the war, when there will have to be an investigation of freight rates in Canada because, as we know, the railway commission-now called the board of transport commissioners-is not

carrying out its function. Under the Railway Act it is the duty and function of the board of transport commissioners, of their own volition, to investigate what freight rates are being asked. That provision has been made so. that there will be equality of treatment, and equality of development of the country. There must be, by order in council, some further study of this matter by the government before an election is held, because these freight and passenger rates involve both railway systems. When we consider what the two railway systems have made out of this war, we realize the necessity for a review of the rates.
A return was made to the house showing the figures to the end of 1940, and they revealed that the two railway companies made more during the first fifteen months of this war than they had made in the four and a half years before the war. The time has come, I say, for a revision of those rates, and a federal inquiry, and it is the duty of the board of transport commissioners to go into this matter.
Then we still have Gallup polls across the country. I have said that they are all "Gallup" and no poll. They are now very active in connection with federal and provincial elections. No one knows who these people are, and I say they should be regulated by the high court of parliament and election regulations. They have tried to mislead the people by propaganda as to actual conditions in the country, and have not shown fairly what the people are thinking. I do not know anyone who has voted outside the house-and I do not care.
This empire has been built up on coal. The mother country and the dominions cannot exist without a proper national policy and empire policy in respect of coal. In my opinion the story of coal between the two wars is not an argument in favour of nationalization and state control, as against private enterprise. Let us remember one basic thing regarding coal, namely, that the former industrial supremacy of Great Britain and Canada was built up on that commodity, and our recovery from war losses will to a great extent depend upon it.
Only a few hon. members are aware of the hardships endured by the miners who go down into the pits to get the coal. During the years of the industrial slump there were few who realized, as I did, the conditions under which these men had to exist, and the dangerous nature of the work they did. I have spoken about that from 1923 on, the need for providing a living wage, and for a national

War Appropriation-Munitions and Supply
policy so as to maintain the life of the worker in health and safety, and improve his living conditions. I am sorry there has not been a better deal given to miners and others in this industry, not only in Alberta and the maritimes, but also in Wales.
There is no doubt that in Britain many of these men have entered the armed forces and others are taking their places in the mines. Women are in those mines, too. I have seen pictures of women shovelling coal in mines located in the old country. The employment of young, inexperienced people under sixteen years of age, and of women, and all that kind of thing as we find it in England is not proper.
In view of the short supply of coal in the last winter-and dear knows where we shall be next winter, if we have weather such as we had in the past few months-something should be done to improve the fuel situation. If not, we shall be without houses and without fuel of any kind.
I would speak now about the coal drivers. I pointed out in the house on another occasion that retail coal dealers should be given another dollar a ton. We find that $125,000,000 is being spent on controls, but Donald Gordon has not a five-cent piece to give to the men who deliver coal, and are working for the small dealer. I have seen dozens of returned soldiers from the last war who have worked long hours night and day in zero weather and under difficult conditions at this job of coal delivery. Federal assistance should be given, through the municipalities and the industry generally, so that the dealers and workers I refer to would benefit. And that would apply not only to those delivering coal but to other deliverymen as well. Those men are not making very much money. There are too many amateurs in the country, and certainly too many amateurs, rather than experts, exercising these controls. Something should be done along that line. I appreciate the position of the industry in the maritimes, and also the situation of the mine owners. All through my life I have found that one must try to work with other people, and that there must be a little teamwork if one wishes to accomplish anything.
Then I should like to refer to the power situation, and the export of that commodity. Many people do not yet understand the great work of Sir Adam Beck and Sir James Whitney in connection with the hydro electric system in Ontario. This was begun by Conservatives, although many good Liberals helped the movement, too. However, it was mainly a Conservative activity. If it had not been for the 32283-53
great development of electrical power in that province, a fuel shortage would have been much more serious. This is an organization which exports power to the value of about $8,000,000 a year from Ontario to the United States. Under present exchange that would amount to about $10,000,000. That is the value of power which crosses the boundary line from Niagara and other points in Ontario.
As I said, every dollar of the $160,000,000 invested in hydro is earning interest. Without that investment, during the last war Ontario would have been bankrupt. The hydro organization reduced the coal, light and power bill of the province. That investment in Ontario saved an expenditure of many millions of dollars for coal, which would have gone to $30 a ton during the war had it not been for the hydro electric investment.
I say to the government that we must adopt a national reconstruction policy in connection with hydro electric energy in Canada. We have to-day about 42,000,000 horse-power in the dominion, but only about one-seventh of that amount, or 6,000,000 horse-power, has been fully developed. There may be a little more than that at the present time, but some of that development is for only part-time. We must have a national policy, supported not only by the dominion but by the provinces.
I was in the province from which the hon. member for Vancouver South comes-and probably he will follow me in this debate. I visited there in 1927, and was very much surprised to find that a country so rich in water power had not a hydro electric policy. I have been very much surprised at the lack of development in some of the other provinces. The time has come when the government should consider a national hydro electric policy as part of its reconstruction programme. Such a policy would cut domestic rates one-third and rates for commercial lighting, for industry and street lighting, almost one-third. That is what has been done in Ontario. I ask that something be done to meet that situation.
I am not in accord with what the minister has announced regarding our aviation policy. I do not believe that a monopoly will be in the best interests of this country. If we are to have conversion from a war-time to a peace-time economy we shall have to get busy along the lines I have suggested. I support the stand I took last year in connection with this matter, that the Canadian Pacific lines and the one up on Hudson bay and other private systems should be developed1 and allowed to continue. We would then have an all-Canadian policy first which could be developed into an all-empire policy for aviation.

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If the war ended to-day there would not be a British plane or a British system operating in the Pacific. Our friends to the south have the advantage of us in that connection. If we intend to convert from a war-time to a peace-time economy we must not wait too long. The United States are away in advance of us regarding this matter. They needed two million electric toasters and they decided to adopt a quota plan to distribute them as evenly as possible among the industry in converting to a peace-time economy.
I should like to say a word about the housing situation which I have been complaining about since the start of the war. In 1935 the Bennett government considered a resolution which I proposed for a national housing and reconstruction policy. A committee of the House of Commons was appointed to study the whole question of housing, urban, suburban and rural, and met for months. That committee made a report to parliament, but I did not agree with all that was in it. Instead of a vast and costly housing commission I thought money could be lent through the banks at low rates of interest to build houses from standard plans.
Then the present government came into power and1 Mr. Dunning, who was then minister of finance, adopted the policy suggested with some moderations. About 886,000,000 has been spent. That was a great thing for Toronto and all our cities and the development of housing. On February 26, 1945, I again called the attention of the present minister to this situation, and he wrote me this letter:
I have your letter of February 19, regarding housing in Toronto. We are doing our level best to meet the Toronto situation. We have provided for the appointment of an administrator of emergency shelter, and we are hopeful that great benefit will be derived from this appointment.
There has been no improvement since except the sending out of a lot of postcards through the mail. If we are to provide shelter we must provide houses or some substitute for them. The situation could have been clarified had it not been for this administrator of emergency shelter. He is a good man personally, and no doubt he has done a lot. He is a valuable citizen, being one of our hydro commissioners, and I cannot speak too highly of him. The letter continues:
In your letter you urge the construction of a large number of houses. This simply cannot be done at the present time because of the shortages of building materials. While the war is progressing satisfactorily, the demands for *war supplies are enormously heavy and there are not enough materials to meet these huge

War demands and also provide for all the building that people would like to do and which under normal conditions would be desirable.
Naturally when money is plentiful and there is a shortage of housing accommodation, hundreds of thousands of Canadians would like to use their money for the purpose of building houses. A programme of this kind is, however, impossible without a serious crippling of the war effort, which, of course, must come first.
That is the same argument that was advanced in the other war. I can tell him that the people are sick and tired of it.- In the city which I have the honour to represent I can point out considerable work that has been done by different federal departments in Toronto-properties of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation on Yonge street, south of St. Clair avenue, purchased and then abandoned and left idle for months and months. Then the C.B.C. again comes along; it is one of the most mischievous corporations we ever had in Canada, took over a Jarvis street property and got all the materials needed. I do not know how many damage actions the city will have because of the condition from ice in front of this property on Jarvis street. Many times they did not even clean off the snow from the sidewalks. They were just as bad as the local commission in Ottawa on parliament hill.
If half the money that has been spent on some camps for the forces and the materials that have been used across Canada in putting up some of these camps that should never have been built had been used for housing it would have helped to relieve the situation. Soldiers have been moved from one part of the country to the other. Camps were built, especially on the prairies where in some cases there was no water or sewage supply, that should never have been built. Millions of dollars have been spent to transport the troops from one camp to another across Canada. There will be a day of reckoning after the war as to why we failed in connection with the housing situation. As I said the year before last, a hundred thousand houses will be needed immediately in Canada. I think the select committee reported in 1944 that 606,000 were needed. I think over a million houses will be necessary for Canada before many days are over.
On Bay street, Toronto, around Simpson's store, you will see a line-up of people just the same as they line up to get into the galleries here when we have special sessions like the electric storm the night before last. I never saw such a line-up of emergency shelter people. It is an insult to these people after the way in which they have been led around by the nose by national selective service, looking for employment. They have had to waste

War Appropriation-Munitions and Supply
their time again trying to get a card for a room and they have been hounded from pillar to post for a job. Then along comes another commission called the shelter administration with no shelter available. They have no shelter to offer; all they can do is hand out postcards.
I should like to refer to the shipbuilding situation. In 1916 and 1917, when I was head of the city and one of the harbour commissioners, the government established a shipbuilding plant on the water front. A lot of money was spent. In some cases the ships built cost too much. I appreciate what the present minister has done with that particular plant and I think it is a credit to him and the government. I am not one of those who think that the government deserves no credit. The working people of Canada also deserve credit, as do the industrial leaders, for the work they have done during the war. They have set up a glorious record in pur history.
I think the present minister has contributed a great deal to the success of the great industrial war movement. I am fair enough to say so, but I am sorry he has not seen fit to do more. A total of 836,000,000 has been spent on the harbour in Toronto, and in conjunction with the government a viaduct was built. The city paid one-third of the cost. The Welland canal has been deepened and we were able to have 600,000 tons of coal in that industrial area last fall. I do not know where the Toronto district and other surrounding cities and towns would have been had it not been for that great development. Water-borne traffic has brought in most of that coal there as well as other commodities.
I plead with the minister that something be done for shipbuilding workers. I was with them on a deputation the other day and we were told that it is proposed to sell the plant. There were two specific classes of ships built for the war. In view of the great necessity of food for the devastated countries in Europe I believe the time has come to build at this plant wooden type ships which could go up the great lakes and carry not only coal but grain and other commodities. With the development that is bound to come to this country and if we are to be a maritime power we shall have to do something along these lines.
I should like to say a word or two about the reconstruction programme of the present government. I have read the proposal made to-day by the minister and I think he has waited too long to propose the policy. It has been suggested that 50,000 houses shall be built when they are able to get the material. If we wait until our soldiers come home they will be without homes at all.
32283-53i
The minister provides after the war for 900,000 more workers in employment. Let us have no more idle talk of full employment. There will be no such thing as full employment in any country in the world after this war. Conditions will be desperately hard in this country after the war. We have squandered our natural resources at an awful pace.
I am not one of those who believe in this new utopia that hon. gentlemen speak of, because in my humble opinion there will not be any utopia after this war. Everybody in Canada will have to work hard, and the first thing we should do is to abolish some of the irksome controls that have been fastened on this country. Some of them, should have been abolished long ago.
Some people talk of a reduction in taxation. But how are you to reduce taxation when billions of dollars have been raised and spent during the war? That will be a burden on the taxpayers, directly and indirectly, for years to come.
I should like to say a word on reconstruction. This party has been attacked from many parts of the house. But the Progressive Conservative party has had a wonderful record. It has always been the party of social reform in Canada, seeking to improve the condition of the toilers. We have done more than any other party, federally and provincially, to better the conditions of the workers. We are not afraid of reasonable planning that is adapted to the circumstances. The period between the two great wars was the most disastrous in the history of this or any other country. We are living in a mechanized age.. All that a great many people know is what they read in the newspapers, and dear knows they do not read much of what goes on in this house. The dictators solved the unemployment problem by preparing for war, and we should solve the unemployment problem, not by saying that we shall have full employment, but by properly preparing for the days of peace. We should develop the great natural resources of this country. We should raise the standard of living by better housing and by increasing consumption of consumer goods among the working classes, and shorten the hours of labour so that men and women will have time for some leisure and recreation. We shortened the hours of labour in Toronto in the last war by adopting in the fire and. police forces and all public departments and. commissions the eight-hour day and the platoon system. The city of Toronto has been the pioneer and leader all along the line in bettering hours of labour and working conditions, and so was the Whitney Conservative government of Ontario. We should go further
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in shortening the hours of labour so that men and women will have more leisure to enjoy the blessings of this life, if any are left after 'this war. The Conservative government of [DOT]Ontario introduced the workmen's compensation act, and in federal affairs it was some [DOT]of the Conservatives who first proposed in 1921 a national system of unemployment insurance, a national fuel policy, prison reform, health and hospital insurance and other social measures such as old age pensions.
The times call for clear thinking and plain speaking. Let us be honest one with another and put politics in the background. Let us put first things first and war winning first. Our economy and that of Great Britain are different from that of the United States and we should so rearrange matters that in the reconstruction period the working classes will not have to work longer hours or for lower wages. The best businessmen in Britain have shown what can be done by mass production there. They have been able to pay better wages, as high in some cases as those paid in the United States and produce an article just as cheaply. We should do the same thing in our country. British industrialists have shown all this can be done by factory reorganization.
Those who are attacking the Progressive -Conservative party fail to point out that in *both the federal and provincial spheres this .party has been the pioneer of nearly all the social legislation the country has and was the first party to promote on a gigantic scale public ownership of the natural resources of '.the country in light, power and transportation, the taking over of the Canadian National railway and the important development of preserving the water powers for the people of this country.
It cannot be denied also that even in England the Conservatives have done similarly. In England Conservatism has given to the country a long line of great statesmen who have known how to tread the middle path of ordered progress and to sow a political harvest which subsequent generations of Englishmen have reaped a thousand-fold. It was Clarendon who restored Church and King on the basis of "those admirable and incomparable laws of government"; Danby who founded the party system; Edward Seymour who by sponsoring the Act of Settlement paved the way for the Protestant succession; Harley whose policy led to the adoption of the principle that the crown acts through responsible ministers; William Pitt the *younger who revived the idea of the strength iof parliamentary government when compared
L
with the rule of the terrorist mob, and who gave the world and his country a priceless legacy of British opposition to arbitrary government and dictatorship; Peel who brought free trade to his country and converted the middle classes to Conservatism; Shaftesbury who stirred the conscience of his party on the urgent need for social reform; Disraeli who linked imperialism with democracy and issued his resounding appeal for the "two nations" of rich and poor to unite; Randolph Churchill, who in a brief life of intense activity gave colour and direction to the policy of Conservative for democracy; Joseph Chamberlain who fought the imperial trusteeship and brought idealism into imperialist economics; Baldwin and Neville Chamberlain whose financial "revolution" gave new life to British industry in the thirties and unconsciously paved the way in no small measure for the mighty war effort of the forties; Winston Churchill who led the country in "its finest hour." It is an impressive record of great names and great achievements, and. in our own country we have had Macdonald, Cartier, Whitney, Beck and other great Conservative leaders who have done so much for the empire and the working classes of this country in peace and war alike.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Chairman, sad news has just come to me which I think the house should hear. I have just learned of the loss by death of a great and good friend of Canada in the person of President Roosevelt of the United States. I am sure that the house will feel deeply the tragedy of his death on the very eve of victory in Europe and will wish to convey to the family of President Roosevelt and to the country of which he is president, the sincere sympathy of every Canadian.


Gordon Graydon: The news which has just been conveyed to the house by the Minister of Munitions and Supply is so sudden and shocking that it is very hard to find words to express one's feelings. The death of President Roosevelt has deep significance not only for every citizen of Canada but for the world at large. He has been a great national and great international figure. His removal by death at this time when perhaps his services were the most needed in all his long and useful life is an occasion which the house cannot let pass without due recognition. This is a time of deep sorrow for every one of us. A great international figure, a great statesman, a great legislator of a great country, and above all a great humanitarian has been taken from us. I shall not say more at the moment, but perhaps on another occasion I shall have an opportunity

Death of President Roosevelt
to speak in a more extended way of the great affection in which we in this House of Commons of Canada and the people of this country have held the late President of the United States.


Mr. COLDWELL:: May I just add a word to what has been said by those who have already spoken. I feel that the blow which has fallen on the democratic world at this moment is tragic for all mankind. We in Canada regarded President Roosevelt as a warm friend of our country, and one who in the very difficult days of the early period of the war, when his country was not completely aware of the great danger that overhung the world, was able to give us encouragement, confidence and assistance. On the eve of the San Francisco conference this is indeed a very grave blow, and we join with democratic people everywhere in mourning the passing of a great American and a great man, who belonged not only to the United States but to the whole of the civilized world.


John Horne Blackmore: The members of my
group will desire to associate themselves with the fine things that have already been said. I have looked upon President Roosevelt as a great source of inspiration and of leadership and I believe that mankind will remember him with sincerest and deepest gratitude and reverence. We join with those who to-day are bereaved in the United States, and indeed throughout the world, in deepest sympathy for the members of his family, and trust that someone will be raised up who will be able to take his place during the trying days to come.


Gordon Graydon: Mr. Chairman, in view
of the sorrow of this house I suggest that we stand in a minute's silence in memory of the late President Roosevelt.
(The members stood in a minute's silence.)
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock. Progress reported.



William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, hon. members have learned of the death at Warm Springs, Georgia, this afternoon, of the President of the United States. Franklin D. Roosevelt was so close and good a neighbour, so great and true
a friend of the Canadian people, that the word when received was as if one of our very own had passed away.
I hasten to express on behalf of the government, the members of both houses of parliament now in session, and on behalf of all the people of Canada, our deepest sympathy with the government and people of the United States. I wish at the same time to express our deepest sympathy for Mrs. Roosevelt and all the members of the family in their bereavement. Their sorrow and the sorrow of the American nation will be shared by the peoples of the united nations and by those who cherish freedom in all parts of the world.
The death of President Roosevelt is in truth a loss to the whole of mankind. Few lives have been more closely identified with humanity in its needs, its struggles and- its aspirations. His services to the cause of freedom went far beyond limits of race and bounds of nationality. He was an undaunted champion of the rights of free men, and a mighty leader of the forces of freedom in a world at war. He has left to the world an enduring heritage by which his life, his faith and his courage have contributed to the well-being of his fellowmen.
It is a comforting thought at this time to-know that before the close of his great career he had already helped to fashion the design of a world organization for the maintenance of peace and security. His rest at Warm Springs was in preparation for the journey to San Francisco to open the conference of the united nations. In this conference, he envisaged the culmination of his life's great aim-an enduring peace among the nations of the world.
It was my great privilege to have been a life-long friend of Franklin D. Roosevelt. I knew him very well. Of that friendship, I shall hope to speak at another time. My feelings at this moment are perhaps best expressed in lines of Matthew Arnold's, which perhaps I may be permitted to quote. They voice what, at this hour, I believe, lies deepest in the hearts of all:
0 strong soul, by what shore Tarriest thou now? For that force,
Surely, has not been left vain!
Somewhere, surely afar,
In the sounding labour-house vast Of being, is practised that strength,
Zealous, beneficent, firm!
I believe it is.
Mr. Speaker, as a mark of respect of our country for the memory of the President, the flag will fly at half-mast from the peace tower of our parliament buildings. As a further mark of respect I know that all hon. members would wish to have this house adjourn without continuing its proceedings to-day, and I move accordingly.
Death of President Roosevelt


Gordon Graydon: Mr. Speaker, to the suggestion with respect to adjournment I believe the Prime Minister will have the unanimous consent of this house. May I be permitted to associate His Majesty's Loyal Opposition with the tribute paid by the Prime Minister, and to say that the news of the great President's tragic passing has left the members of this house filled with dismay and weak with sorrow. The real significance of his c(eath at one of the world's most critical hours, must be left in some degree for future times to assess. Measured by every yardstick President Roosevelt's name will echo and re-echo down through the world's hallways of fame as one of the most dynamic, powerful and successful leaders that democracy has ever given to the service of humanity.
He was enshrined in the hearts of every freedom-loving man and woman the world over. Millions of families to-night will feel the same bitter twinge of sorrow they would feel at the passing of one in their own family. President Roosevelt was a fearless, courageous and happy warrior. Whether he was battling against the dread ravages of his paralyzing affliction or fighting the good fight against political, economic and social wrongs, he never flinched, he never faltered, he never wavered.
When it became his task to throw his nation's weight against the temporarily victorious aggressor nations in this global conflict, he threw into that struggle every ounce of energy, effort and determination he possessed. Likewise in preparation for the equally compelling objective of preserving and maintaining permanent peace and security in the world, the late President was at the time of his death engaged in the same vigorous and resolute march to victory which had characterized his course of action through these many years.
I witnessed the inaugural ceremonies three months ago at the White House when Mr. Roosevelt was sworn in for his fourth term of office as President of that great republic. Seldom in my lifetime have I seen such genuine demonstrations and such touching scenes as I looked over those many thousands who had gathered to do homage to their wartime President. One could feel that that great mass of humanity was leaning heavily upon their fellow citizen and President with the profoundest conviction and confidence that the immediate future of their nation was in the best hands they knew.
IMr. Mackenzie King.]
This world can ill afford to lose President Roosevelt as it emerges from this armed holocaust and enters the threshold of one of its most critical periods. As he throws the torch to other hands let us pray that the relentless pursuit of lasting peace shall be undertaken with the same grim resolution and fortitude which characterized every move he made.
Canada mourns to-night the loss of a great friend and a good neighbour. Seldom has a president of our neighbouring republic to the south been so close to the people of this nation. Nowhere in the world will the sense of personal loss be felt in a deeper way than in the homes of the people of this dominion. We are thinking of Mrs. Roosevelt and the family as they walk to-night through the valley of the shadow of death. Canada desires to share their grief.
Language seems so weak and inadequate to reveal one's feelings at a time like this, but I summon to my help those immortal words:
Lives of great men all remind us We can make our lives sublime,
And departing leave behind us Footprints on the sands of time.
Those footprints will never be erased so long as humanity reveres brave men in peace and war who are prepared to die that others may live. '


Major James William Coldwell: Mr. Speaker, I can add very little to what has already been said and to the remarks I made at six o'clock, except to say that we agree with the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) and the leader of the opposition (Mr. Graydon) that this house should adjourn as a mark of respect to a truly great man and a tribute to the great people who have lost a great leader. I have no doubt that all across the world tonight men and women who have looked to the President as the spokesman for democracy during the critical period of the last several years will mourn with the people of the United States; and we join with them in that mourning. The United States has given to the world some great leaders. President Roosevelt, I think, will rank among the greatest of them, perhaps standing beside the great Lincoln who died under tragic circumstances at the end of a long and bitter civil war. Just after having taken office for a second time Lincoln passed away mourned by a great people, by a mighty nation and by human beings all across the

Business of the House-General Election
world who have believed in freedom and democracy. To-night, on the eve of the meeting of the nations in conference to bring about the peace for which he fought, we feel the loss of President Roosevelt all the more. So, Mr. Speaker, we join with the Prime Minister, the leader of the opposition and the people not only of Canada and the United States but of the whole democratic world in mourning the loss of a world-statesman and a great soul.


John Horne Blackmore: Mr. Speaker, the members of my group desire to associate themselves with the kind and thoroughly deserved words which already have been uttered; and we approve the Prime Minister's action in moving the adjournment of this house.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Before we adjourn we might stand as a mark of respect.
(The members stood in a minute's silence.)
Motion agreed to and the house adjourned at 8.15 p.m.
Friday, April 13, 1945