1944-03-27

STANDING COMMITTEES


[Stage Direction]
Mr. J. P. HOWDEN (St. Boniface) presented the first report of the standing committee on railways and shipping owned, operated and
controlled by the government, and moved that the report be concurred in.
Motion agreed to.
Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister) moved:: That the name of Mr. Hanson (York-Sunbury) be substituted for that of Mr. Hazen on the standing committee on railways and shipping.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Munitions and Supply):: Mr. Speaker, I desire to make a statement on production subsidies on coal.
During the period of acute shortage of domestic coal in western Canada, subsidies were paid to certain high cost producers of coal, to stimulate production. The subsidies paid covered all losses, plus an item of profit, and were justified as a basis of assistance when coal had to be obtained at any reasonable cost, but left no incentive on the part of the operator to reduce his cost to a minimum.
The situation in western Canada has now completely changed. Domestic coal is in surplus supply and it has been necessary for the government to consider a more equitable method of assisting those mines that might collapse if all government assistance were withdrawn. On the recommendation of the emergency coal production board, the following revised subsidy policy affecting the western domestic field has been adopted:
Effective April 1, 1944, coal mine operators who have been operating at'a loss will be paid a maximum subsidy as follows:
Sixty-five cents per net ton for mines operating in the Edmonton area.
Thirty cents per net ton for mines operating in the Drumheller area.
Thirty cents per net ton for mines operating in the Camrose area.
Thirty-five cents per net -ton for mines operating in the Lethbridge area.
Thirty-five cents per net ton on shaft mines in the Coalspur area.
Thirty-five cents per net ton for mines operating in the Saunders area.
Fifteen cents per net ton on shaft mines operating in the Saskatchewan field.
The above subsidies represent the average increased cost incurred by operators in the various fields due to wage increases and the cost-of-living bonus.
In cases where the operator has been able to absorb part of the increase in cost, an alternative subsidy of a flat rate per ton equivalent

Coal

to the average subsidy approved during the months of October, November, and December, 1943, plus cost-of-living bonus, will be paid, provided such bonus is not greater than the maximum subsidy per ton named above for the various fields.
The revised subsidy will be paid for the government fiscal year 1944-45, but subject to review at the end of each three months.
Subsidy may be reduced if the review shows that a profit greater than the company's standard profits is earned.
The foregoing is an attempt to meet the present situation of coal production in western Canada. It is recognized that the war has had the effect of changing and disturbing prewar arrangements for the production and marketing of coal in all parts of Canada. It seems probable that the dominion coal policy will require revision as it will apply to post-war years.
Therefore, the government will appoint a royal commission, charged with the duty of studying all .aspects of the production and distribution of coal in Canada, to report to the government with recommendations for such alterations of the pre-war coal policy as its findings may indicate as necessary or desirable.


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: Do I
understand that this applies only to the western coal field, and that there is to be no change of policy with respect to the maritime field? I understood this change was coming, but that it was to apply also to, say, the Minto field. It should, because the present policy puts a premium on inefficiency and a penalty on the efficient operation of that mining area.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I expect to be able to
announce a policy for eastern Canada within a few days. The situation in the Minto field has been studied, but I was not ready to make an announcement to-day.


Mr. GRAYDON:: Will the minister be in
a position soon to announce the personnel of the inquiry board?


Mr. CRERAR:: Give us a little time.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I presume that will be announced shortly.


Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: Will the minister explain the low subsidy in the Saskatchewan coal fields as compared with Alberta?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I cannot say. It is the recommendation of the emergency coal production board.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I should like to say a word

to the house about the proceedings of the present week. As the house will be adjourning on Friday for the Easter vacation, I think it would probably suit the convenience of members generally if instead of sitting on Friday night we were to sit on Wednesday afternoon. If that is agreeable, I would move:
That the resolution passed by the house on February 21 last with respect to Wednesday sittings be suspended in relation to Wednesday next.
On Friday night it was announced that this afternoon we would continue with the munitions and supply items under the war appropriation resolution and this evening take up some minor bills. I feel, however, that we should, before adjourning for Easter, make as much headway as possible with the war appropriation measure. The government therefore would prefer to continue this evening with the discussion of the war appropriation estimates on munitions and supply, and if they are not concluded to-night continue with those estimates to-morrow; the only exception being that in the last part of the evening, between half past ten and eleven, we would seek again to get an item or two into supply.


Gordon Graydon: That is to-night.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That will be to-night, and if we do not succeed to-night we shall try again to-morrow night.
It might assist hon. members were I to indicate what perhaps could be taken up on Wednesday afternoon. The house has already considered one or two financial measures. Item 14 on the order paper is the second reading of bill No. 38, to authorize the raising by way of loan of certain sums of money for the public service. This might be the first item on Wednesday, and the second, the resolution that it is expedient to bring in a measure to provide for the refunding of certain obligations of the Canadian National Railways. There are two or three other measures that have been considered in part, one respecting the Exchequer Court Act, one with respect to an amendment to the Judge's Act to provide an additional judge, and a very small measure with respect to the Water Meters Inspection Act. These might also be taken up on Wednesday and, if an opportunity should be afforded, item 13 on the order paper which is the resolution respecting the city of Ottawa.
The Acting Minister of Finance (Mr. Ralston) has an announcement which he wishes to make. My reason for my preceding him was that I thought I should clear the way for a statement he intends to make regarding interim supply.

Wednesday Sittings


Gordon Graydon: I think it is wise to go as far as we can in expediting the war appropriation resolution debate, and I simply want to say this to the Prime Minister. I should like very much if the government, during the Easter recess, would consider the advisability of restoring Wednesday afternoon sittings.
I do not bring this up in any desire to quarrel with the government over this matter; I did so once before, and I think perhaps one quarrel is enough. In my opinion, however, members generally have found that the suspension of the Wednesday afternoon sittings has not worked out in the best interests of parliament, although I must confess that the argument which the Prime Minister put on record before, from the point of view of the work of the war committee of the cabinet, is one which of course should also have serious consideration. I am prepared to give that consideration to the right hon. gentleman and his cabinet.
The fact is, however, that from the point of view of committee work, I have checked the work that has been done by the committees, and I find that of the standing committees, up to date, only three out of fifteen have met at all and only one of these met for part of one Wednesday. The situation with regard to the other special committees is that the majority of them have met on Wednesdays, but very few of them have worked on either Monday or Friday and very few on Tuesdays. That means, as I think most members will agree, that we have not been utilizing Wednesday afternoons in the manner anticipated by the government.
I suggest to the Prime Minister that there must surely be some way by which the cabinet's work can be arranged to provide that neither the members of the war committee nor the Prime Minister need be in the house on Wednesday afternoon. We would be prepared to facilitate that arrangement as far as possible, and perhaps some of the cabinet ministers whose work is possibly not so important, or at any rate so heavy, could be utilized for that purpose, so that we might have Wednesday afternoon for ordinary house work.
We have felt that it retarded the work of the session to have Wednesday taken out of the week, and that has been borne out by the experience we have had in the last few weeks during which the new practice has prevailed. I would ask the Prime Minister to give serious consideration to the suggestion, because with the tremendously heavy agenda I think it would be of great help in getting the work under way and the business of the house coming up in proper sequence.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I desire to take this opportunity of asking the Prime Minister whether consideration cannot be given to facilitating the second reading of some bills that are on the order paper. I am not referring to divorce bills, but to bill No. 39, and I assume bill No. 40, listed on page 21 of the order paper. These two bills are of some importance to the companies concerned, especially bill No. 39, with which I am very familiar. I would ask that the government give consideration to facilitating the calling of these two private bills. They are of some importance or they would not be here. Perhaps it could be done before the Easter recess.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Replying first to the hon. member for York-Sunbury, I would say at once that the government will be pleased to consider the request which he has just made. It may involve giving consideration to other bills as well as those he has mentioned. I can assure him the matter will be carefully considered, but I cannot promise more than that.
May I say to my hon. friend the leader of the opposition that we on this side are just as anxious as, if not more anxious than, he is to expedite the business of the session. I can assure him that if I did not believe that what has taken place thus far had had that effect, I would not press for a continuation of the practice. If one compares what has been accomplished on Friday evenings with what would have been accomplished by sitting on Wednesday afternoons, I believe one would come to the conclusion that thus far in the present session we have accomplished more work by substituting Friday night for Wednesday afternoon.


Gordon Graydon: Perhaps the Prime
Minister misunderstood my point. We are anxious to work Friday nights as well.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That may be perfectly true, but my hon. friend has not the responsibility that those of us who are members of the government have. It is quite easy' to say that the opposition can get along without the ministers of the crown, particularly those belonging to the war committee of the cabinet, but I would remind my hon. friend that there are very few questions that come up this session that do not in one way or another touch some aspect of the war, and I have grave doubts as to the wisdom of all members of the war committee of the cabinet being wholly absent from the house at any time. However, do not let my hon. friend imagine that Wednesdays are reserved simply for meetings of the war committee of the cabinet. There are meetings of the entire
Wednesday Sittings

cabinet as well that have to be held, and have been held on Wednesdays, as well as the meetings of the war committee of the cabinet. It is a little difficult to have hon. members realize that at a time of war, and particularly at this stage of the war, there is a tremendous amount of business which can be done only by the executive, and which has to be done only by the executive in comparison with what is the case at any other time.
I mention the present stage of the war. The cabinet to-day is giving almost as much consideration to matters that pertain to post-war affairs as it is giving to matters actually related to the war itself. In the very nature of things many of these matters cannot be disclosed because they involve a careful consideration of what is being proposed by other countries as well as by Canada. We receive from time to time, almost daily in fact, communications which set forth representations on different matters that come to us, some from the government of the United Kingdom, some from the United States, some from the other dominions, on such all-important questions as those related to what will come up immediately after the war is over, or when there is an armistice. These post-war problems have to be considered. They are very important. If a mistake is made in a matter of policy on something that affects the whole future of the relations between nations, it is a very serious mistake indeed. I am not assuming that we are going to make mistakes, but we certainly wish to avoid them and so far as Canada is concerned to give our mature judgment to these questions and to give as wise decisions as it is possible to give.
I do say that it is not humanly possible for members of the cabinet to deal, with a full sense of responsibility, with the class of questions we have now before us and also attend in this House of Commons on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday afternoon and night and Wednesday afternoon. That is just not possible, and I think it better to speak plainly in this way in order that the matter may be definitely understood. I am perfectly sure that in the United Kingdom, for example, they have much more business to transact than we have, and that parliament there is as anxious as we are to sit and get through its business as rapidly as possible, but they have found it necesary, notwithstanding that they do not sit in the evenings at all, to cut down the normal sittings of the House of Commons and reduce them very considerably. It is for the reason that the subjects that have to be considered are so involved, yet so important, and the implications arising out of them so vast, that they do require more than ordinary consideration.

I need not say to my hon. friend that one cannot leave everything to Saturday and Sunday. Human endurance does reach its limits. I believe every minister is working most of seven days as it is, but the fact that he may not be obliged to work at high pressure every day of the week does make a little difference. Let me say to my hon. friend that the government will consider what he has suggested and do what we have done, for example, this afternoon-arrange for a Wednesday sitting where it seems desirable to have it. But I do not wish to make any promise as to any change in the procedure at as early a stage in the session as this.


Gordon Graydon: May I suggest that the
Prime Minister also give consideration to using the services of the parliamentary assistants in a more comprehensive way in connection with the business of the house?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There again
may I say to my hon. friend that I do not think it is realized what an amount of work is being done by the parliamentary assistants. Their work is not to be judged by the number of times they speak in this house, any more than any member's ability or his contribution to the well-being of Canada is to be judged by the frequency with which we hear his voice. The assistants to the ministers are assisting the ministers all the time. They are assisting them in connection with the work of their departments, not merely in connection with what is said on the floor of this house, but in connection with the many matters to which the ministers have to give consideration. Ministers are obliged because of different circumstances to leave matters to their parliamentary assistants instead of trying to attend to them themselves. The parliamenary assistants have been invaluable. I assure my hon. friend that they are being given just about as much work as can be expected of them.


Hon. J. L. RALSTON (Acting Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, following up what
the Prime Minister has said, I propose that there be included in the rather long programme which he has indicated for Wednesday afternoon by asking for interim supply on the main estimates, one-sixth or two months' supply, and also for an interim war appropriation in the amount of 8850,000,000. For that purpose I shall propose on Wednesday, with the consent of the house, that we give first, second and third readings to the appropriate bills.


Mr. GEORGE BLACK (Yukon):: Pursuant to what has been said in regard to the desirability of considering certain private bills on

Questions
the order paper, surely the house and the government will agree .that it is more important in the public interest that we should consider public bills. Private bills concern but very few people, whereas public bills are of interest to all the people of Canada. Most private bills deal with divorce, and they are merely a nuisance to parliament. If there is to be a change in the procedure we have followed since the bfeginning of the war I do ask that public bills be given the preference over private bills.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
A message from His Excellency the Governor General transmitting further supplementary estimates for the financial year ending March 31, 1944, was presented by Hon. J. L. Ralston (Acting Minister of Finance), read by Mr. Speaker to the house, and referred to the committee of supply.


Hon. C. W. G. GIBSON (Minister of National Revenue):: I desire to make a statement concerning the payment of 1943 income tax. Owing to an unusual combination of circumstances, which is not likely to occur again, the government has decided to postpone the payment of any balance of unpaid income tax falling due on the 30th of April, from that date to the 31st of August, without interest.
Taxpayers are advised that this announcement is in respect of the payment of the balance of taxes falling due on the 30th of April, and does not refer to the time of filing income tax returns. Income tax returns must still be filed on or before the 30th of April.
It will be observed that this announcement falls into two parts-one, postponing the time of payment to the 31st of August, and the other confirming that the filing of returns must be made by the 30th of April as required by law.
Perhaps a comment on the postponed payment should be made. It remains open for any individual to make payment of the unpaid balance of 1943 tax falling due on the 30th of April at any time between now and the 31st of August without any interest being added. After the 31st of August interest at five per cent, as provided by law, will become payable.
The income tax returns, as the law at present requires, must be filed on the 30th of April. The reason for requiring these returns to be filed on the present due date is to enable the income tax division to proceed with the assessing of returns, to avoid delay in making
refunds and the issuing of compulsory saving certificates.


Gordon Graydon: I suggest that the minister might very properly amend his statement to read, not in view of the exceptional circumstances but in view of the pressure which came from many quarters, including this side of the house.



PRIVATE BILLS


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 42, for the relief of Charlotte Muriel Wright.-Mr. Stokes.
Bill No. 43, for the relief of Sarah Carmichael Hay Johnston-Mr. Emmerson.
Bill No. 44, for the relief of Margaret Georgina Isabel Townsend Mansfield.-Mr. Emmerson.
Bill No. 45, for the relief of Pasquale Di Guglielmo.-Mr. Hazen.
Bill No. 46, for the relief of Theodora B. Ostlund Fruitier.-Mr. Fulford.
Bill No. 47, for the relief of Ema Warthold Langlois.-Mr. Hill.
Bill No. 48, for the relief of Ruth Steinwold Lauer.-Mr. Maclnnis.
Bill No. 49, for the relief of George Hodgson Fisher.-Mr. Mcllraith.
Bill No. 50, for the relief of Molly Gurevitch Gladman.-Mr. Factor.
Bill No. 51, for the relief of Goldie Anker Lazanik.-Mr. Boucher.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. NICHOLSON:: 1.	How many individuals in Canada received
incomes, as shown by the income tax returns for each of the last five years for which returns are available, in the following categories:
(a)	under $2,500; (b) $2,500 to $5,000; (c) $10,000 to $25,000;	(d) $25,000 to $50,000;(e) and in excess of $50,000?	_	_2.	What were the total incomes received in each of the above groups?


Colin William George Gibson: The income tax division is not in a position to supply the information in the form in which it is requested by the hon. member. Such information as is available has been furnished to the hon. gentleman, and I understand that he is agreeable to having the question dropped.
Question dropped.


NATIONAL DEFENCE-RENTAL OF PROPERTY IN SYDNEY, CAPE BRETON
Mr. GILLIS:: 1.	Has the Department of National Defence any property in the city of Sydney, county ol Cape Breton, rented from Lillian Elman oi Gordon Elman or Elman Motors?
1S54
Questions

2.	If eo, what rental is paid for the said property?
3.	What is the assessed value of the said property?
4.	Was said property rented directly by the department or on the recommendation of some person or persons?
5.	If the latter, what are the names of those making such recommendations?


Mr. MACDONALD (Halifax):: 1.	Yes. Garage located at 475-79 George St., Sydney, N.S., which is rented from Lillian B. Elman. (Approximately 16,500 sq. ft.)
2.	8400 per month. This is approximately 30 cents per square foot.
3.	Land 82,500, building 87,000. Total assessment for tax purposes $9,500. Building is insured by owner for 825,000.
4.	Property was rented directly by the Department of National Defence.
5.	See answer to question No. 4.


DUNDURN, BASK., MILITARY HOSPITAL
Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: 1.	How many, (a) doctors; (b) nursing sisters; (c) dental officers; (d) other ranks, are on the staff of the military hospital at Dundurn, Saskatchewan?
2.	What has been the average number of patients per day in the said hospital during the past six months?
3.	What has been the maximum and minimum number of patients in the hospital in any one day?


Mr. MACDONALD (Halifax):: 1.	As of the 21st March, 1944:
(a)	Five. Of the five, one is the O.C. of the hospital, one is a specialist' in medicine, one is a specialist in surgery and the other two are general duty medical officers. Dundurn military hospital was in January, 1944, classified as a class "A" hospital to provide all facilities for special treatment. It is the only class "A" hospital within M.D. No. 12 and has been set up to care for all cases within the district requiring special treatment and investigation in addition to caring for the personnel at Dundurn proper. It is also prepared for infectious disease cases.
Dundurn military hospital is responsible for the training and qualification of nursing sisters appointed to the nursing service in M.D. No. 12, as well as for certain young reinforcement medical officers preparatory to despatch overseas.
(b)	Seventeen on staff of whom only eleven are on duty at Dundurn military hospital; others are attached elsewhere for duty.
(c)	None, but three dental officers are stationed at Dundurn camp and are available for duty at Dundurn military hospital.
(d)	Male, 38; C.W.A.C., 30; Total 68.

2.	September, 1943, 61; October, 1943, 57; November, 1943, 91; December 1943, 58; January, 1944, 43; February, 1944, 75.
3.	From September 1, 1943, to end of February, 1944: Maximum, 169; minimum, 18.


OFFICIAL WAR HISTORY
Mr. BENCE:: 1.	Has the preparation of an official history of the 1914-1918 war been authorized by the Canadian government?
2.	When was such authorization granted?
3.	To whom was it granted?
4.	To what stage in the said war has the history been completed?
5.	How many volumes of such history have been prepared?
6.	What has been the cost to the Canadian government to date of such preparation?
, Mr. MACDONALD (Halifax):
1.	Yes.
2.	May, 1921.
3.	Department of National Defence.
4.	September, 1915.
5.	Volume I has been completed and published. There has also been completed and published a volume containing appendices which covers the period covered by volume
I.	When fully completed there will be eight volumes exclusive of appendices. Volumes II to VIII inclusive have been completed) in part and at least 50 per cent of the total work required for their completion has been done.
6.	Printing and publication $16,784; translation to date $705. In addition there would be included in the cost a proportion of the pay and allowance and salaries of the officers, other ranks, civilian employees of the directorate historical section (general staff), Department of National Defence, during the writing of the book and some proportion of the overhead running expenses of the directorate. The preparation of the history is tied up with other work of the directorate and no segregation of the costs has been made.


SOFT DRINKS AND FOUNTAIN SYRUPS-MANITOBA
Mr. ROSS (Souris):: 1.	How many firms are engaged in the manufacture of soft drinks and fountain syrups in the province of Manitoba?
2.	What is the total amount of sugar used by said firms during each of the years 1942 and 1943?


Mr. ABBOTT:: 1.	27.
2.	1942, 6,218,100 lbs.; 1943, 6,420860 lbs.

Questions


LUMBER INDUSTRY-LOAN GUARANTEES
Mr. NOSEWORTHY:: 1.	What firms or individuals engaged in the production of logs or lumber have secured the guarantee of the Commodity Prices Stabilization Corporation for the repayment of money borrowed, under authority of P.C. 9242?
2.	What is the amount borrowed by each, and on what proportion of each is repayment guaranteed by the corporations?
3.	From what banks were these borrowings made?
4.	For what length of time was each loan made?
5.	What interest rate was charged in each case by the bank?
6.	How much of each loan, the repayment of which is, in whole or in part, protected by the corporation's guarantee, has been repaid to date?
7.	Were all these loans made directly by a bank to the producer of logs or lumber?
8.	If not, what individual corporation or company borrowed the money from the bank and in turn lent it to the producer?
9.	In any such cases what was the spread between the interest rate charged by the bank and that paid by the producer?
10.	In the event of deficits under these guarantees, what steps are taken by the corporation to recover same?
11.	What time is allowed for the final liquidation of these deficits?


Mr. ABBOTT:: 1,	2, 3, 4, 5 and 6. It is not the policy of the government to give information regarding the business of individual companies.
7.	Yes.
8.	Answered by No. 7.
9.	There are no such cases.
10 and 11. Question of loss has been raised in connection with only one loan. The general arrangement with the banks is that collection of advances is left entirely to them unless question of loss arises.
The guarantees were undertaken with the idea of stimulating the production of lumber and were extended only in cases where the credit position of the borrower was not such that the banks would have made the loans. In the 1942-43 plan the limit of guarantee was 15 per cent of the maximum amount of advances, and for this guarantee the banks paid to Commodity Prices Stabilization Corporation an amount equal to 1 per cent of the interest on the loan for the time it was outstanding. Total credits authorized in the 1942-43 season were 8765,000, of which there was outstanding on February 29, 1944, only $34,128. In connection with' one of these loans, which on February 29, 1944, amounted to $16,755, it is probable that the corporation will have to make good their guarantee to the extent of $3,900. This amount, however, will be fully offset by the
aggregate fees paid by the banks in consideration of the guarantee. Under the 1943-44 plan the corporations's guarantee was increased from 15 per cent to 25 per cent; total credits authorized under this plan amounted to $877,600 of which $520,456 was outstanding on February 29, 1944.


NORWAY HOUSE-WINNIPEG AIR SERVICE
Mr. BRYCE:: 1.	Does the Canadian Pacific Air Lines hold the franchise for air passenger service from Norway House to Winnipeg?
2.	Can residents of Norway House area obtain air passenger service at advertised rates?
3.	Can residents of Norway House area obtain air passenger service other than chartering a special plane?
4.	What are the rates charged for chartering plane for above distance?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: 1.	No.
2.	Yes.
3.	Yes.
4.	The total of the charges for passengers and goodB carried, but not less than $239 via air to Lac du Bonnet, thence via motor vehicle service; or $229 via air to Lac du Bonnet only. If necessary to move an aircraft from another point to accommodate the special flight an additional charge is made for the ferry service involved.


BROKERAGE FEES, ETC.
Mr. PERLEY:: 1.	What amount did the Canadian wheat board pay in pit brokerage on the Winnipeg grain exchange during the calendar year 1943?
2.	What proportion of the business of the Canadian wheat board in 1943 was handled by the Reliance Grain Company, and how much brokerage or commission fees was paid to the Reliance Grain Company on the 1943-44 crop to date?
3.	How many employees of the Canadian wheat board are other than Canadian citizens?
4.	How many of the grain export companies handling Canadian wheat board grain have their head office other than in Canada, and where is such head office located?


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: 1.	The board figures are compiled on a crop year basis and the 1942-43 brokerage figures appear in the annual report for 1942-43.
2. It is not the policy of the government to release the brokerage payments to individual firms.
3.	All Canadian citizens, except two United States citizens, as far as the board is aware.
4.	One, with head office in New York.
Questions


WHEAT BOARD-PAYMENTS ON PARTICIPATION CERTIFICATES
Mr. EVANS:: 1.	How much wheat was purchased by the Canadian wheat board in each of the crop years,
1940-1941, 1941-1942 and 1942-1943?
2.	What was the number of bushels carried by the wheat board at the end of each crop year, 1940-1941, 1941-1942 and 1942-1943?
3.	How much wheat was marketed to other than the wheat board in each of the crop years, 1940-1941, 1941-1942, 1942-1943 and 1943-1944?
1939-40	1940-41
1940- 41	 114,831,569 253,713,363
1941- 42	 55,728,222 121,966,362
1942- 43	 -	85,954,425
Note: Bracketed figures represent advance
3.	Not ascertainable. Based on primary receipts, figures would be approximately: 19401941, 61,000,000 bushels; 1941-1942, 127,900,000 bushels; 1942-1943, 105,000,000 bushels (unrevised figure); 1943-1944, not available.
4.	Requisition forms are now being received and the issue of 1940 cheques should commence by the end of March and go out in volume in April, and when payment for that crop is completed the other payments will follow.


RIDEAU HEALTH AND OCCUPATIONAL CENTRE, OTTAWA
Mr. JAQUES:: 1.	How many acres of land were purchased in connection with the Rideau health and occupational centre on the Rideau river?
2.	From whom was this land acquired?
3.	What was the purchase price?
4.	What was the assessment value at time of purchase ?


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: 1.	Approximately 42 acres.
2.	Corporation ,of the township of Gloucester, county of Carleton, Out.; E. J. Billings, Ottawa, Out.; L. M. M. Greene and L. J. Greene, Medicine Hat, Alta.
3.	$13,750; negotiated and recommended by the real estate adviser, Department of National Defence, acting for the Department of Pensions and National Health.
4.	$9,550. It is pointed out that the largest of the properties acquired was operated' as a truck garden farm and the assessment value for properties, in the township, situated near the city does not take into consideration the future potential value of the propertyi In a case tried recently before the Exchequer
fMr. J. A. MacKinnon.]
4.	When will payment be made on participation certificates on crop years, 1940-1941, 19411942 and 1942-1943?


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: 1.	Wheat purchased from producers: 19401941, 395,355,522 bushels; 1941-1942, 99,540,491 bushels; 1942-1943, 167,506,531 bushels.
Wheat and wheat futures contracts purchased-Special account P.C. 1803: 1941-1942, 39,052,780 bushels; 1942-1943, 13,067,213bushels.
2.	Unsold stocks carried at end of crop years-in bushels:
1941-42	1942-43 Spec.Acct. Total


P C 1803
[Stage Direction]
(14,933.000)	-	-	353,611,93243,683,089	(59,400,000)	23,097,050	185,074,72330,467,267	89,296,266	-	205,717,958
sales to new season's crop.
Court, the judge made the following remarks as to assessment in comparison with real estate property value:
"There may be cases where a municipal assessment might afford some check against an exorbitant claim but, generally speaking, evidence of a municipal assessment is not of itself to be relied upon as evidence of market value for expropriation purposes."
The real estate adviser aforesaid considers that the amounts paid for the properties were fair and reasonable and in accordance with the merits of each parcel as to value.
Note.-Expropriation proceedings are now pending in respect of an additional area of approximately 230 acres, as the real estate adviser has been unable to come to an agreement with the owners as to price.

Mr. BERTRAND (Terrebonne):: 1.	What were the 150 most important positions in the Defence Industries plant at Bouchard, Ste. Therese, on March 17, 1944?
2.	What are the names, addresses and salaries of the persons holding such positions?
3.	How long has each one of them been in the employ of the company at Ste. Therese?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: While information with respect to the positions, names and salaries of the employees of Defence Industries Limited in the plant at Bouchard in so far as they are a direct charge to operation a're available to the Department of Munitions and Supply, the company itself is a privately owned corporation and its employees therefore are' not employees engaged in the public service. It would be unfair to such employees and to the company to make public such information.

Questions


MEAT BOARD ADVISORY COMMITTEE
Mr. BLACKMORE:: 1.	Is there an advisory committee to the meat board?
2.	If so, what is the name of each member, and what position did he occupy before being appointed as a member of the advisory committee?
3.	What remuneration, if any, is provided for each member of the advisory committee?
4.	How many times has the advisory committee met since January 1, 1943?
5.	How many times has the meat board acted upon the recommendation of the advisory committee since January 1, 1943?
6.	Has the advisory committee any power whatsoever?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	Yes.
2.	K. N. M. Morrison, general manager, First Cooperative Packers, Barrie, Ontario; F. H. Downing, manager, Canadian Live Stock Cooperative (Western) Winnipeg, Manitoba; Joseph Bisson, manager, Canadian Live Stock Cooperative (Quebec) Montreal, Quebec; William J. Reid, Department of Agriculture, Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island; Harry Wilson, farmer, Charing Cross, Ontario; R. McCrimmon, farmer, Fort Saskatchewan, Alberta; J. H. Tapley, president, Swift Canadian Company., Toronto, Ontario; John Burns, president, Burns & Company, Calgary, Alberta.
3.	Actual travelling expenses.
4.	Once.
5.	The advisory committee has not followed the practice of making specific recommendations with respect to operations of the meat board. The committee is kept informed of the board's operations so that they may be in, a position to offer advice with respect to matters that affect the operation of the board.
6.	The advisory committee has no administrative or executive authority. The committee as its name implies is purely an advisory body.


MOBILIZATION ACT-CALL-UP AND NOTICE
Mr. RAYMOND:: 1.	How many persons were called for their medical examination under the mobilization act, (a) during the month of January, 1944;
(b)	during the month of February, 1944; (c) from March 1 to March 15, 1944?
2.	How many persons received a notice to report for military training under the mobilization act, (a) during the month of January, 1944; (b) during the month of February, 1944;
(c)	from March 1 to March 15, 1944?


Mr. MARTIN:: 1.	January, 1944, 26,007; February, 1944, 23,119; March 1-15, 1944, 8,174.
2.	January, 1944, 14,766; February, 1944, 12,172; March 1-15, 1944, 6,950.
CANADIAN ARMY-ORDNANC^ SHOEMAKER


Mr. NOSEWORTHY:: 1.	What is the basic wages and the cost-of-living bonus per month paid by the ordnance department of national defence to shoemakers at Pembroke, Kingston and Ottawa?
2.	Is there any difference in the basic wages? If so, on what ground are these differences justified?


Mr. MACDONALD (Halifax):: 1.	Pembroke-None employed. Kingston- $110 per month, plus 17 per cent C.L.B. Ottawa-$100 per month, plus 17 per cent CXJB.
2.	Yes. The higher rate at Kingston was
approved by the National War Labour Board on December 28, 1943, on representation being made that the rate of $100 per month was considerably less than the prevailing rate in the Kingston area.	*


GRAND FALLS, N.B., PUBLIC BUILDING-CARETAKER
Mr. HATFIELD:: 1.	Who was the caretaker of the federal public building at Grand Falls, New Brunswick, during April, May and June, 1943?
2.	What remuneration did he receive for his services?
3.	Is he now holding the same position? If not, why not?
4.	What is the name of the present caretaker, and what remuneration does he receive?


Mr. FOURNIER (Hull):: 1.	D. J. Collins (temporarily employed to replace the regular caretaker who was granted military leave of absence from March 3, 1943).
2.	$510 per annum.
3.	He ds not now holding the position, having resigned August 19, 1943, as he was dissatisfied with the remuneration he received.
4.	The present caretaker is Mr. J. O. Gagnon, regular incumbent of the position, who returned to his duties as caretaker on November 1, 1943, after being discharged from the Military Forces. His remuneration is $1,260 per annum less $300 per annum for the use of living quarters.
Note: The position of caretaker of the public building at Grand Falls, N.B., was reclassified in 1941 by the civil service commission at a remuneration of $510 per annum. This new classification will not be applied to Mr. Gagnon who was appointed prior to the above reclassification of caretakers' positions, but will be applied to any temporary appointee in the position or to a new regular appointee at some future date.
Questions


COLD STORAGE-SUBSIDIES
Mr. HANSON (Skeena):: 1.	How many government-subsidized cold storages are there in Canada?
2.	What is the total subsidy paid to such cold storages by the dominion government?
S.	What is the number of government-subsidized cold storages in each province, and the names of places where located?
4.	What are the names of firms and individuals, if any, to whom subsidies have been granted, giving each province separately?
5.	Are there any applications for new grants at the present time? If so, from whom?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	107.
2 . 83,083,773.03.
3.	See lists below.
4.	See lists below.
Province
Prince Edward Island
Nova Scotia	
New Brunswick	
Quebec	
Ontario	
Manitoba	
Saskatchewan	
Alberta	
British Columbia ....
Totals	
5.	New Brunswick: Saint John, Municipality of city and county.
Ontario: Aldershot, Aldershot Distributing Cooperative Co. Ltd. (3); Blenheim, Kent Fruit Growers Cooperative Ltd. (2); Dixie, Dixie Growers Cooperative Ltd.; St. Thomas, Elgin Growers Cooperative Ltd. (3).
Manitoba: Winnipeg, Winnipeg Cold Storage Co. Ltd. (2).
Alberta: Edmonton, Edmonton Cold Storage Co. Ltd.
British Columbia:	Kelowna, Okanagan
Packers Coop. Union (2); Okanagan Centre, Okanagan Valley Land Co. Ltd. (2); Oliver, Southern Cooperative Exchange; Westbank, Westbank Cooperative Growers Assn.; West-bank, Westbank Orchards.
No. of	Refrigerated	Approved	Subsidy	irehouse	'.s space	cost total	paid	6	264,666	S 134,101	27	S 39,774	5612	2,424,740	2,803,994	70	831,918	174	1,032,495	357,274	13	107,182	2410	447,269	442.916	44	132,874	9333	4,310,285	2,120,280	92	630,060	274	1,686,048	1,063,965	38	319,189	594	441,868	26S.707	00	80,612	102	315,339	242,000	00	72,600	0032	8,029,256	2,898,537	43	869,561	17107	18,951,966	10,331,777	27	3,083,773	03
Prince Edward Island
Name
Central Creameries Limited	
Island Cold Storage Company	
Champion Brothers	
Wiltshire Dairying Company	
O'Leary Dairying Co. Ltd	
Park Comer Creamery & Cold Storage.
Berwick Fruit Company	
Banner Fruit Company	
Grand Pre Fruit Company	
Port Williams Fruit Co. Ltd	
N.S. Public Fish C.S. Terminals

K. L. Pineo Ltd	
Lockeport Cold Storage Co	
Cape Breton Cold Storage Co. Ltd.
Halifax Cold Storage Co	
Leonard Fisheries Ltd	
Pictou County Dairy Co. Ltd	
Wolfville Fruit Company	
New Brunswick Apple Exchange.. Moncton Cold General Storage Co. New Brunswick Cold Storage Co... Imperial Products Co. Ltd	
Location	Refrigerated space	. Approved total	Subsidy totalCharlottetown	31,216	S 46,005 70	$ 13,801 71Charlottetown	200,000	50,000 00	15,000 00Kensington	13,464	12,000 00	3,600 00N. Wiltshire	3,420	3,427 75	1,028 32O'Leary	12,358	16,970 23	5,091 06Park Comer	4,208	5,697 59	1,253 47Nova Scotia	Berwick	204,000	$ 47.707 44	S 14.312 23Bridgetown	52,850	21,250 00	6,375 00Grande Pre	88,433	33,187 34	9,956 00Greenwich	82,100	36,800 00	11.040 00Halifax	1.148.000	2,067.617 76	620,285 32Iventville	84,150	32,000 00	8,320 00Lockeport	59,940	56,850 18	17,055 05North Sydney	210,000	195,068 22	58,520 46Port Hawkesbury 37,960	40,386 69	9,115 99Port Hawkesbury 338,550	200,000 00	52,000 00Stellarton	27,757	47,042 07	14,112 62Wolfville	91,000	36,085 00	10,825 50New Brunswick	Fredericton	63,300	$ 24,320 99	$ 7,296 30Moncton	188,034	140.376 14	42,112 84Saint John	744,000	167,000 00	50,100 00Woodstock	37,161	25,577 00	7,673 10

Questions
Quebec
Name
Eloi Cote	
Utilities Publiques Provinciales... Hemmingford Fruit Growers Coop
J. H. Sansregret	
La Sarre Creamery	
Cooperative Federee de Quebec... Cooperative Federee de Quebec...
Dominion Fish & Fruit Co	
Cooperative Federee de Quebec... Joseph Alfred Landry	
Location	Refrigerated	Approved	Subsidyspace	total	totalChicoutimi	8,220 S	12,000 00	$ 3,600 00Chicoutimi	33,631	32,129 12	9,638 74Hemmingford	50,000	18,000 00	5,400 00Joliette	23,394	22,444 10	6,733 23La Sarre	3,040	8.000 00	2,400 00Montreal	8.000	8.000 00	2,400 00Quebec	66,100	90,000 00	27,000 00Quebec	225,000	222,843 22	66,852 96Rimouski	19,164	17,000 00	5,100 00Riviere-du-Loup	i 10,720	12,500 00	3,750 00Aldershot Distributing Coop. Co	Kent Fruit Growers Coop. Ltd	Brantford Cold Storage	Whyte Packing Company	McGeachey's City Dairy	Wilson Company Ltd	W. L. Hamilton	Lambton Growers Cold Storage Co	Wellington Produce Company	Kingston Cold Storage	Flavelles Limited	Meaford Fruit Canning Co	Whyte Packing Company	R. H. Ashton	
Temiskaming Producers Coop. Co. Ltd..
Lemon Brothers	
Palmerston Cold Storage Co	
W. Scott Company Ltd	
Prince Edward Co. Fruit Growers	
J. D. Moore Company	
Elgin Growers Cooperative Ltd	
St. Thomas Cold Storage Co	
Algoma Produce Company	
Norfolk Fruit Growers Association...
Middlesex Growers Cooperative	
Thedford Cold Storage Company	
Georgian Bay Fruit Growers Ltd	
United Farmers Cooperative Co	
Trenton Cooperage Mills Ltd	
Trenton Cold Storage Co	
Federal Warehouse Co. Ltd	
Windsor Ice & Coal Co	''
Oxford Fruit Cooperative Ltd	
Brandon Creamery & Supply Co Manitoba Cold Storage Co. Ltd.
North Star Cold Storage	
Winnipeg Cold Storage Co. Ltd.
Moose Jaw Cold Storage Co	
Sask. Co-operative Creameries Ltd Sask. Co-operative Creameries Ltd Sask. Co-operative Creameries Ltd
Merchants Cold Storage Company Edmonton Cold Storage Company
Ontario
Aldershot	225,298
Blenheim	71.500
Brantford	36,000
Brockville	106,000
Chatham	50,000
Chatham	144,400
Collingwood	27.S00
Forest	52,000
Harriston	57,069
Kingston	17.169
Lindsay	131,510
Meaford	36,000
Mitchell	30,600
Morrisburg	31.000
New Liskeard	3,200
Owen Sound	33.600
Palmerston	169,984
Peterborough	48,000
Picton	245,500
St. Mary's	105,000
St. Thomas	150,000
St. Thomas	174,141
Sault Ste. Marie	55,806
Simcoe	577,492
Strathroy	114,000
Thedford	423,000
Thornbury	164,800
Toronto	68.000
Trenton	166.446
Trenton	347,000
Windsor	209,670
Windsor	67.300
Woodstock	171.000
Manitoba	
Brandon	27,500
Winnipeg	750.000
Winnipeg	108.548
Winnipeg	800,000
Saskatchewan	
Moose Jaw	189,764
Regina	100.672
Saskatoon	127,432
Vonda	24,000
Alberta	
Calgary	164,715
Edmonton	150,624
S	100,608 12	S 30.182 44
	25.200 00	7,560 00
	29,600 00	8,880 00
	52.000 00	15,600 00
	19,350 00	5,031 00
	53,741 45	16,122 43
	11,342 84	3,402 85
	15,000 00	4,500 00
	38,877 30	11,663 19
	18,725 00	5,617 50
	53,000 00	15,900 00
	26,771 62	8,031 49
	21,000 00	6,300 00
	22,071 88	6,621 56
	7,000 00	2,100 00
	20,000 00	6,000 00
	35,000 00	5,250 00
	14.500 00	4,350 00
	110,080 77	33,024 23
	36,019 62	10,805 88
	56,980 27	17,094 08
	123,700 00	37,110 00
	32.767 00	9,830 10
	239,000 00	71,700 00
	56,148 57	16,844 58
	86,036 81	25,811 04
	81.815 26	* 24,544 58
	86,600 00	25,980 00
	50.919 41	15,275 82
	188,000 00	56,400 00
	332,725 00	99,817 50
	30.000 00	9,000 00
	45,700 00	13,710 00
$	32,000 00	S 9,600 00
	602.987 19	180,896 13
	79,144 00	23.743 20
	349,834 19	104,950 26
s	90.000 00	S 27,000 00
	48,257 00	14,477 10
	108,000 00	32,400 00
	22,450 00	6,735 00
S 90,000 00	27,000 00
152,000 00	45,600 00
1S60
Questions

British Columbia
Name
Refrigerated Approved Subsidy Location	space cost total total
Creston Co-op. Fruit Exchange	
Farmers Cold Storage Co. Ltd	

Kaleden Co-op. Growers Association..
Crown Fruit Company	
Kelowna Cold Storage Ltd	
Kelowna Growers Exchange	
Occidental Fruit Company Ltd	
Okanagan Packers Limited	
Keremeos Growers Co-op. Association. Naramata Co-op. Growers Ass'n	
Kootenay Co-op. Storage Askiciation..
Pacific Coast Terminals	
Okanagan Valley Land Co. Ltd	
Haynes Co-op. Growers Exchange	
Oliver Co-op. Growers Exchange	
Osoyoos Co-op. Fruit & Veg. Growers..
James Kirkpatrick	
Penticton Co-op. Growers Association..
Pyramid Co-operative Association....
Maple Ridge Co-op. Produce Exch	
Canadian Fish & Cold Storage Co	
Northern Fishermans. Cold Storage

Kelowna Growers Exchange	
Salmon Arm Farmers Exchange	
Turner R. & Sons	
Summerland Co-op. Growers Ass'n	
Vancouver Ice & Cold Storage Co	
Howe, A. T. Orchards Ltd	
Inland Ice & Cold Storage Co	
Vernon Fruit Union	
B. Wilson & Company	
B.C. Fruit Shippers Ltd	
Creston	191,200
Hatzic	52,405
Kaleden	260,000
Kelowna	104,S00
Kelowna	210,000
Kelowna	300,000
Kelowna	530,000
Kelowna	80.000
Keremeos	412,236
Naramata	234,000
Nelson	11,100
New Westminster	750,600
Okanagan Centre	79,223
Oliver	110,520
Oliver	272,160
Osoyoos	163,800
Penticton	32,164
Penticton	441,270
Penticton	85,750
Port Hanney	11,205
Prince Rupert	781,000
Prince Rupert	161,696
Rutland	590,254
Salmon Arm	390,300
Salmon Arm	27,735
Summerland	580,000
Vancouver	211,153
Vernon	62,000
Vernon	312,500
Vernon	331,185
Victoria	64.000
West Summerland 185,000	
29,784 90	$ 8,935	4755.000	00	16,500	0057,619 83	17585	9416,875 56	5.062	6634,218 54	10,265	5653,582 75	16,074	8258,065 74	17,419	7232TOO 00	9,600	0044,150 02	13,245	0036,077 00	10,823	1022.532 96	6,759	88,189.216 95	356,765	0820,301 18	6,090	3512,914 00	3,874	2044,472 32	13,341	7023,300 00	6,990	0033.000	00	9,900	0069.253 88	20,776	1615.000	00	4.500	006,594 00	1.978	20350.000	00	105.000	00100.000	00	30,000	0060,570 46	18.171	1468,068 49	20.420	558,414 74	2,524	4296,015 31	28,804	59100.000	00	30,000	0015,777 92	4,733	3775.000	00	22,500	0069,730 88	20,919	2675.000	00	22.500	0026.000	00	7,800	00


CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS-RED CROSS
Mr. WINKLER:: 1.	Has an arrangement been made whereby conscientious objectors to service in the armed forces are required to sign a contract to pay certain amounts monthly to the Red Cross?
2.	If so, when, and how many are paying into this fund?
3.	What are the maximum and minimum amounts paid monthly by conscientious objectors?
4.	Has any accounting been given to the Red Cross? If so, when?
5.	By months, how much has been paid in the past three months?


Mr. MARTIN:: 1.	Postponed conscientious objectors, other than those directed to alternative service work camps for employment, may be required to enter into an arrangement whereby a portion of their earnings is deposited in a chartered bank by their employers to the credit of the Canadian Red Cross Society. No alternative service worker, unless he be self-employed, undertakes to deposit any amount directly to the credit of the Canadian Red Cross Society. The normal procedure is that the employer is selected by the alternative service officer. This employer is then asked to enter into an under-
[Mr. Gardiner.!
taking to which the alternative service worker must agree unless he is prepared to accept employment in an alternative service work camp. The arrangement regarding employment is that the earnings of the alternative service worker shall be at the rate of the going wages for the work done. From the earnings certain statutory wages, living allowances and deductions are made and, at the discretion of the alternative service officer, dependents' allowances may be granted. The amount the Canadian Red Cross Society receives is that balance which the employer undertakes to deposit at a chartered bank after a district treasury officer has certified that the earnings and deductions are proper and in accordance with the agreement.
2.	3,906 as of February 29, 1944. Payments are made monthly.
3.	Neither maximum nor minimum payments have been fixed. The amount payable to the Canadian Red Cross Society is a balance of earnings after certain deductions have been made. In the case of industrial workers earnings vary from month to month. Where a fixed monthly amount represents earnings, the balance paid is more regular but again depends

Questions
on special allowances or deductions for the maintenance and health of the postponed conscientious objector.
4.	Chartered banks advise the Canadian Red Cross Society as each payment is received.
5.	December, 1943, $58,701.11; January, 1944, $66,444.46; February, 1944, $62,758.82.


PURCHASE OF FLOUR BY DISTRIBUTORS OF FEED
Mr. LACOMBE:: 1.	Is there a wartime prices and trade board order No. 302?
2.	Has this order dispensed with the obligation on the part of distributors of feed, such as bran and groats, to purchase, together with such by-products, a certain quantity of flour from flour mills?
3.	If so, is such order complied with?


Mr. ABBOTT:: 1.	Yes. Wartime prices and trade board Order No. 302 as amended by board order No. 359 prohibits any seller selling goods and services from imposing on a buyer an obligation to buy more goods or services than he wishes to buy or to buy other goods and services in addition to those he wishes to buy, unless the seller had established a similar trade practice during the basic period. The amended order also gives an administrator of the board the power to issue an order, countersigned by the chairman of the board, requiring any seller to vary or discontinue any trade practice established during the basic period. On January 21, 1944, the administrator of flour and cereal products formally ordered flour millers selling mill feeds, commercial feeds, grain or chops, to discontinue, as condition of selling such feeds, imposing any obligation on a buyer to purchase other goods.
2.	No. 1 answers No. 2.
3.	The order of the administrator of flour and cereal products is being enforced in the same manner that all other regulations of the board are enforced.


CORONATION OF H.M. THE KINO- CANADIAN REPRESENTATIVES
Mr. ROY:: 1.	How many persons attended the coronation of His Majesty King George VI at the expense of the Canadian government?
2.	Who were these persons, and in what capacity did they attend?
3.	What amount was paid by the state for each of them?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Inquiries for the information sought in this question were made on several occasions during the session of 1938 and the first session of 1939. The details which are requested can be found in
the following sessional papers: No. 171, March 7, 1938; No. 171 A, April 6, 1938; No. 171B, May 3, 1938; No. 171C, May 10, 1938; No. 124, February 3, 1939.


CENSORSHIP-MEETING AT QUEBEC ON
[Stage Direction]
Mr. LaCROIX (Quebec-Montmorency):
1.	Has the dominion censorship silenced the press as to the report of a letter read and speeches delivered at a meeting held in the Palais Montcalm, Quebec, on March 12, 1944?
2.	If so, for what reasons?
Mr. LaFLECHE: No.

Mr. DORION:: How many municipal corporations and public bodies have forwarded to the Prime Minister resolutions requesting the full application of the provisions of the Immigration Act with regard to any individual who wishes to enter this country?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, I am informed that there have been forwarded ito my office a large number of resolutions on the subject referred to. The resolutions are similarly worded. It is perfectly evident some one or more persons have been circulating communications with a view to having them forwarded to my office. The question is of the kind which, were it to be answered literally, might convey a wholly erroneous impression. For example, I might say I have received thousands of communications identically worded concerning some things-the postage being free. Were I asked to recall how many of these had been received, and were to say that thousands had come in, such an answer would be wholly misleading. For the most part they would represent the opinions of a mere handful of persons. There have not been thousands in this case, but an answer as to the number that have come in would be misleading the public as to the significance of the reply given. I think therefore that the question should not be answered.
Question dropped.


DUNDURN, SASK., MILITARY CAMP
Mr. BENCE:: How many officers and men were stationed at Dundurn military camp, Saskatchewan, on the 1st day of March, A.D. 1944?


Mr. MACDONALD (Halifax):: As at
March 8, 1944, the nearest date to March 1, 1944, on which a strength return was rendered to National Defence headquarters: Officers, including nursing sisters, 154; other ranks, including C.W.A.C., 1,525.
Questions as Orders for Returns



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: 1.	What are the names, home addresses and ages of all persons held in detention under military authority for refusing to bear arms on grounds of conscientious objections up to January 31, 1944?
2.	Where are each of these individuals located at the present time, and for what period of time are they to be under detention?
3.	How many of these individuals applied to the mobilization board for status as conscientious objectors?


William Chisholm Macdonald: Return
tabled.


SELECTIVE SERVICE-UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. MacINNIS:: 1.	How many selective service and unemployment insurance offices are there in the province of British Columbia?
2.	Where are they located?
3.	What is the grade of each of these offices?
4.	What are the names and position of each employee?
5.	What are the salary ranges and other remuneration, if any, for each of the positions or class of positions?
6.	How many of the employees are returned soldiers, (a) of the last war; (b) of the present war?
7.	How many of said employees were appointed to their positions by the civil service commission?
8.	How many were appointed by governor in ;ouncil?


Mr. MITCHELL:: Return tabled.


AGRICULTURE DEPARTMENT-UNIVERSITY GRADUATES
Mr. NICHOLSON:: 1.	How many university graduates employed by the Department of Agriculture, receiving salaries from $2,000 to $2,400, have been engaged by the department, (a) less than 5 years; (b) 5 to 10 years; (c) 10 to 20 years; (d) more than 20 years?
2.	How many university graduates employed by the Department of Agriculture, receiving salaries less than $2,000, have been engaged by the department, (a) less than 5 years; (b) 5 to 10 years; (c) 10 to 20 years; (d) more than 20 years?


FLUID MILK SUBSIDY
Mr. CASTLEDEN:: 1.	What districts in Canada have been receiving the 25 cents per hundred pounds subsidy for fluid milk?
2.	What was the total amount paid out in subsidies for fluid milk in each month from May 1, 1943, to December 31, 1943?
3.	In how many eases has action been taken to insure to the producer the receipt of this bonus?


INDIANS
Mr. NICHOLSON:: 1.	What is the total Indian population in Canada according to the 1941 census?
2.	How many Indians are paid treaty money?
3.	What is the annual payment to each Indian receiving treaty money?
4.	How many medical doctors have been assigned to serve Indian communities exclusively?
5.	What were the total expenditures made for Indian education by the federal government for the last fiscal year?
6.	What was the death rate from tuberculosis per hundred thousand among the Indians for the last year for which statistics are available?
7.	What was the death rate from tuberculosis per hundred thousand in Canada, excluding the Indian population, for the same year?


MOUNT PLEASANT, P.E.I., AIRFIELD
Mr. NOSEWORTHY:: 1.	From whom did the government acquire the property on which the Prince Edward Island, Mount Pleasant airfield is built?
2.	What was the purchase price of the property?
3.	Did the government at the time it purchased this property own or hold a lease on other property in the vicinity of Mount Pleasant?
4.	If so, what disposition has been made of said property?
5.	What is the total construction cost of Mount Pleasant airfield?
6.	What quantity of gravel has been used in preparing the site, and at what cost?
PATTERSON STEAMSHIP COMPANY-ACQUISITION OF SHIPS	m


Mr. ROSS (Souris):: 1.	Having reference to the acquisition of the following six ships from the Patterson Steamship Company, viz., Coteaudoe, Farrandoc, Ganandoc, Lachinedoc, Soreldoc, and the Wellandoc, how was the valuation arrived at?
2.	Was it by arbitration? If so, who was the arbitrator?
3.	If by direct negotiations, who acted, (a) for the Patterson Steamship Company; (b) for the government of Canada?
4.	Having reference to return No. 210, were the following seven Canadian ships, viz., the Mondoc, Novadoc, Portadoc, Prescodoc, Sarnia-doc, Torondoc, and the Troisdoc, reported as lost by enemy action, under charter to the government of Canada or to the government of any of the united nations? If so, to whom were they chartered, and by whom was such chartering negotiated ?
5.	Having reference to return No. 210, (a) was the rate of hire_ of $125 per day for each vessel, viz., the Collingdoc, Kenordoc, and the Portadoc, fixed on a "bare boat" basis? If not, on what basis; (b) what was the insurable value placed on each ship in the event of loss; and (c) in the negotiations for the requisitioning of said ships, what was the agreed value of each ship?

Motions jor Papers



LECAL SERVICES-WESTERN PROVINCES

Alfred Henry Bence: What legal counsel or solicitors in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta have received payment for legal services rendered to the federal government, and what sum has been paid to each during the year 1943?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Mr. GAUTHIER:: For a copy of all letters and telegrams exchanged between the Department of Mines and Resources and any person or persons from February 1, 1936, to this date, pertaining to the lease and sale of Jacques-Cartier reserve, Pont-Rouge, county of Portneuf.



TOBACCO CROP OP 1942 AND 1943

Mr. NOSEWORTHY:: 1.	For a copy of all letters, communications, reports or other documents between the wartime prices and trade board, or any other government board or department and any association of tobacco growers or official thereof, pertaining to the sale of the 1942 and 1943 Ontario tobacco crop.
2.	A copy of all orders in council or any orders or regulations issued by the wartime prices and trade board pertaining to the sale of the 1942 and 1943 Ontario tobacco crop or any portion thereof.
3.	A copy of all letters, communications, reports or other documents between the Imperial Tobacco Company or any subsidiary or official thereof and the wartime prices and trade board or any other government board or department pertaining to the disposal of the 1942 and 1943 tobacco crop or any portion thereof.
4.	A copy of all letters, communications, reports or other documents between the wartime prices and trade board or any other government board or department and the tobacco marketing board pertaining to the disposal of the 1942 and 1943 tobacco crop or any portion thereof.


Colin William George Gibson: Mr. Speaker, this motion would require the copying of a very large number of routine returns filed with the excise division of the Department of National Revenue. I have arranged with my hon. friend to make these returns available to him so that he may indicate what returns, if any, he desires to have filed. I understand that is satisfactory to him.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Stand?


Colin William George Gibson: No, carried with that
provision.



GEOLOGICAL SURVEYS IN QUEBEC

Frédéric Dorion: For a copy of all telegrams, letters, correspondence, reports, petitions and other documents exchanged betw'een the government of the province of Quebec and the dominion government
since 1920 concerning geological surveys, (a) in the province of Quebec; (b) in the county of Charlevoix-Saguenay; (c) in the Gaspe peninsula.



ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES

Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: For a copy of all letters, telegrams or communications between the government of Canada, its ministers or officials and the governments of each of the nine provinces of Canada, their ministers or officials, during the period from September, 1942, and March 16, 1944, having reference to, (a) dominion-provincial conference, and (b) the limiting of release for sale of beer and other alcoholic beverages, as set forth in the order in council of December 16, 1942, and known as the wartime alcoholic beverages order.



CAMP HILL HOSPITAL, HALIFAX

Mr. ISNOR:: For a copy of all correspondence, letters, telegrams, reports and other documents in the possession of the Department of Pensions and National Health, exchanged during the past twelve months between the city of Halifax, Nova Scotia, and the said department or any other department of the government, respecting the acquiring of land, either by transfer or purchase, to be used in connection with a proposed addition to Camp Hill hospital.


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver-Centre):: Return tabled).



INTERNMENTS-CAMILLIEN HOUDE

Mr. LACOMBE:: For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, reports of enquiry before any advisory committee, evidence and letters exchanged between any individual or groups of individuals and the government in relation to the internment of Sir. Camillien Houde, and all petitions for the release of Sir. Houde, since the 4th of August, 1940.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: This is a motion calling for the production of papers relating to the internment of a person who is being detained under the Defence of Canada regulations. Since those regulations have been in force it has been the invariable practice to treat all such documents as confidential, and it is for that reason, and for reasons similar to those given just a week ago when a similar motion was before the house, that I must object to the production of these documents.
Motion dropped.



PENSIONS-OLD AGE AND BLIND

Mr. KNOWLES:: For a copy of all correspondence dated since January 1, 1943, between the federal government and the governments of the several provinces and/or the provincial pension authorities, relating to the filing of liens against the property of old age and blind pensioners; also
Motions jor Papers

for a copy of all correspondence between the same dated since January 1, 1943, relating to the interpretation of subsections (2) and (3) of section 9 of the Old Age Pension Act.


James Layton Ralston: I would ask the hon. member to allow this motion to stand. I have noticed it only now, and I have not had an opportunity to have a word with the officials of the department about it.
Motion stands.



CANADIAN FORCES-CHAPELS

Mr. POULIOT:: For a copy of all correspondence exchanged between the national Catholic lay committee and the government for the purpose of pushing forward at the earliest possible date the building of chapels for the spiritual ministrations of our armed forces whether of the army, the navy or the air force.



OFFICIAL CUSTODIAN OF ENEMY PROPERTIES- RECOMMENDATIONS OF MCPHEE COMMITTEE

Alfred Henry Bence: For a copy of the recommendations of the advisory committee, headed by Judge G. W. McPhee, appointed to recommend the mode and manner of release by the official custodian of properties disposed of by the official custodian.



PROTESTS AGAINST REDUCTION IN BONUS ON FLUID MILK

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. E. PERLEY (Qu'Appelle):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Agriculture. I have received two letters, which I hold in my hand, from the fluid milk shippers in the district east of Regina, along the main line' of the Canadian Pacific Railway.
These letters report that meetings have been held protesting against the action of the minister in February last in reducing the bonus on fluid milk from 55 to 35 cents. I understand also that a delegation has awaited on the minister. Will the minister state whether any consideration will be given to these requests?


Thomas Vien: That is a question that should be placed upon the order paper.


Ernest Edward Perley: I consider it urgent because it affects the producers in the west of a very important product. They want to know what is going to happen.



PARTICIPATION CERTIFICATES, 1940-41 AND 1942 CROP DELIVERY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr, J. A. ROSS (Souris):	Mr. Speaker,
further to the reply given to my question on February 11, 1944, as reported on page 377 of Hansard, that payments on the 1940 wheat participation certificates will be started in March, I should like to ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce if he is now able to say how much per bushel will be paid on participation certificates, 1940-41 and 1942.-
Thomas Vien: I think that is a question that should be placed upon the order paper.


Mr. ROSS (Souris):: The matter of participation certificates is of urgent importance to many producers in making financial arrangements for their spring operations. I sent notice of this question to the minister, and I believe he is prepared to make a statement, if Your Honour will permit.


Thomas Vien: Ordinarily a question of
this kind should be placed on the order paper. Hon. members seem to be of the opinion that a notice to a minister is sufficient to take the question out of the rule which I have been endeavouring to uphold.
_ Mr. ROSS (Souris): It is rather important just now.


Thomas Vien: I would point out to the minister that the practice which has obtained in asking questions may be abused also in respect of answers. However, he may reply on this occasion if he so wishes.


Hon. J. A. MacKINNON (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: The information
asked for is partly included in the answer filed by me this afternoon in reply to a question asked by the hon. member for Maple Creek (Mr. Evans).



WHEAT BOARD


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Ernest Edward Perley: On
Friday last I directed a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce asking whether any action has been brought in the courts against the Canadian wheat board for an accounting. The minister stated that he would take the question as notice.


James Angus MacKinnon: Yes.

Housing


Ernest Edward Perley: Will the minister say when he will report on it?


James Angus MacKinnon: I expect to file a reply within a day or two, or very shortly.



HOUSING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the dlay:
Mr. M. J. COLD WELL (Rosetown-Biggar):: I should like to direct a question to the acting Minister of Finance or to his parliamentary assistant, to whom I sent notice of the question this morning. Have any steps been taken to protect families faced with eviction from their homes on May 1 next, particularly some 1,200 families in the city of Montreal where the situation is very bad and where, I am told1, over 2,000 families are already living in empty stores and insanitary buildings, including converted stables?


Thomas Vien: The parliamentary
assistant may desire to have an opportunity to reply later.


Thomas Miller Bell: This matter is urgent. There is only one month to go before these people must get accommodation.


Thomas Vien: The question should be placed upon the order paper, but if the parliamentary assistant thinks it should be answered and1 he desires to answer now, he may do so.


Douglas Charles Abbott: My hon. friend was good enough to give me notice of his question and I am prepared to answer it.


Thomas Vien: I would point out that the giving of a notice of a question does not necessarily mean that it should be answered on the orders of the day.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Mr. Speaker, I think at the outset in answering my hon. friend's question I should make it clear that Canada has gone very far in restricting the rights of landlords to get possession of their own property, possibly farther than any other united nation. Six months' notice is now the general rule, eviction being impossible during the winter months. Owners may obtain possession only for their own use or for their immediate family. In multiple family dwellings, tenure is even more secure, an owner being unable to get. possession unless he is now living in rented accommodation
elsewhere or is living in a single dwelling, and then he may obtain possession only for his personal use.
In greater Montreal, which is the area to which my hon. friend referred in his question, the leasehold regulations of the wartime prices and trade board have had the effect of giving security of tenure to a very high proportion of tenants. It is estimated that 86 per cent of the population, or 220,000 families, live in multiple family dwellings in the Montreal area. I might point out that in normal times, something like 50,000 of these flats change hands on May 1 in each year. Last year, largely as a result of the regulations, this large movement was reduced to about 12,000, and this year, by reason of the order relating to multiple family dwellings to which I have already referred, eviction notices have been received by only 1,258 tenants in multiple family dwellings.
In spite of all that has been done, it is regrettably true that there will be cases of individual hardship. This seems unavoidable when people are shifting about in great numbers and labour and materials are in short supply. Moreover, the imposition of further restrictions would not eliminate hardship. Indeed, it is certain that further restrictions, such as, for example, the freezing of all leases, which has been suggested, would create new hardships though perhaps for different individuals. Many owners have acted in good faith on the strength of the present regulations and have made arrangements to vacate their present accommodation in the expectation of being able to get possession of their own homes on May 1 next. The house will realize that each of these transactions is a link in a chain of other arrangements which would be disturbed by further changes in the regulations.
It is inevitable that under -conditions of wartime congestion a certain number of citizens of Montreal, as well as elsewhere, may find it necessary to make temporary or emergency arrangements for accommodation. On the whole, however, by the various regulations to which I have referred the scope of the problems has been reduced until it is now in reality a local condition which concerns a comparatively limited number of citizens. The wartime prices and trade board has had the situation under review at all times and has come to the conclusion that it would be inadvisable at this time to impose further restrictions on owners of property in order to meet local conditions. After care-
Clark Ruse Aircraft

ful consideration and consultation with the board, the government agrees with the board's decision.
The house will appreciate that in the restrictive orders already in effect, the dominion government has gone far in interfering with ordinary rights as between owner and tenant, which, except for wartime emergency powers, would be beyond its constitutional authority.
A delegation representing a group of Montreal tenants was in Ottawa last week and submitted certain recommendations, and the Acting Minister of Finance has to-day written to the head of this delegation along the lines which I have indicated in answering my hon. friend's question.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. CLARENCE GJLLIS (Cape Breton South):: Mr. Speaker, I should Like to address a question to the Minister of Munitions and Supply. Over the week-end I have received telegrams from the unions which function in the Clark Ruse aircraft plants in Lakeburn, New Brunswick and Dartmouth, Nova Scotia. It would appear that general lay-offs are taking place at these plants, to such an extent that it would lead one to believe that the plants are being closed. The telegrams protest that discrimination is being shown in the lay-offs in that ex-service men of the present war are being laid off while those eligible for military service but who have obtained deferments are being retained. There have been a number of protests and the telegrams are quite long. Has the minister any knowledge of the situation and what are the prospects of these plants continuing in full production?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The Clark Ruse plants were built for the overhaul of damaged aircraft and are not suitable for any other type of work. The level of work in the plants is proportionate to the number of planes damaged, and I am happy to say that that number is not as great under present operating conditions as it was at one time. There have been lay-offs in personnel as the volume of work has dropped. The Minister of Labour will be able to give my hon, friend the facts.


Humphrey Mitchell: I do not know whether my hon. friend received the same telegrams that I and many other members of the house received, but possibly they are all from the same individuals. On Friday last this same question was asked by the hon. member for York West (Mr. Adamson). May I say in reply to the hon. member for York West that if the wide ramifications of selective service and the other agencies under the Department of Labour were made use of it would be unnecessary for many questions to be answered on the orders of the day. Requests for information are sometimes received from individuals who have no particular standing in the organization concerned or who, in this case, may have nothing to do with the particular lay-offs. I want to say frankly to my hon. friend that I have no objection to answering any question, even of the awkward type, provided that we have been given notice. It may be shown that the department is at fault, and this is the place where we should be put right.
On March 16 the Department of Munitions and Supply notified the Department of Labour that approximately 500 men would be laid off beginning March 20. Arrangements immediately were made to deal with the situation. Men who have been postponed from military service and do not have special skills will be called up for the army.
A survey already has been completed in this connection. As a result it has been ascertained that 111 men will be called for army service, of whom it is anticipated most will be acceptable. Postponement of 18 will be continued because they have special skills, and 109 others are in designated age groups but are not acceptable for army service on medical grounds. The lunch room at the plant has been taken over by the manager of the Halifax national selective service office and 15 of his staff, and they are interviewing those laid off and placing them in other jobs. Up to March 25, 376 had been laid off, but 174 have already been placed in new jobs, six have gone back to their farms, ten married women have returned to their homes. I stated that approximately 111 will be called to the army. This leaves 75 who are in the process of being placed. The manager of our Halifax office anticipates no difficulty in placing men almost as quickly as they are laid off.
A representative of the Victory Aircraft company of Toronto is at the plant, and men or women who are specially skilled and who wish to transfer are being assigned to this company and transportation provided.
[Mr. Abbott.!

War Appropriation-Supplies
In explanation of the telegram sent to members of parliament and to my department by J. C. Sim, recording secretary of the U.A.W. union, I am informed that none of the other executives of the union supports Mr. Sim in his views. This is the telegram which my hon. friend read in the house last week. In fact all of the arrangements in regard to placing men have been worked out in cooperation with union officials. It is passing strange that Mr. Sim is one of the men who is on postponement from military duty.
Yesterday I received a wire from the New Brunswick council of labour from Moncton, dated March 25, which I am mentioning because it may be that a similar wire was sent to hon. members of this house. This wire was to the effect that employees who belong to other parts of Canada are being retained by the Clark Ruse company while maritime people are laid off and offered positions in Ontario.
Following a telephone call to Halifax, advice was received that seniority was being followed in so far as the lay-off was concerned. Those who were going to Ontario were persons who because of their special skills had been offered work by Victory Aircraft company and accepted the offer because the terms were good and the work would give them an opportunity to gain further knowledge and skills.
The general plan being followed is that seven days' notice of lay-off has been given, during which period employees are paid by the company but do not work. It is during this period that placement in other jobs is made.
Personally, I think selective service is doing well in this particular placement work, and I welcome the opportunity of making this explanation to the house.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I want to make one inquiry of the minister, if he will be good enough to go a little further than he has with respect to the Lakebum situation. Is it true that the men who are being laid off are local residents of Moncton who own their homes there and who object to going to Ontario while Ontario men are retained at Lakeburn? These men have their domiciles and their homes there.


Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: I thought the hon. member wanted total war.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is all right; I want total war, but I have to put forward the point of view which they put
forward to me. I do not know anything about the facts. Probably the minister can ascertain them.


Humphrey Mitchell: I shall be glad to do so.


Clarence Gillis: I have no intention of quarrelling with the minister concerning the administration of the regulations, but Sim, who represents the organization, makes the definite observation in that telegram that the text of his telegram is concurred in by national selective service officials in that area. The point I am concerned about-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Clarence Gillis: I have just about finished. The point I am concerned about is, I question the Minister of Munitions and Supply-


Thomas Vien: Order. The hon. member cannot discuss the terms of the telegram.


Clarence Gillis: That is democracy I WAR APPROPRIATION BILL



PROVISION FOR GRANTING TO HIS MAJESTY AID FOR NATIONAL DEFENCE AND SECURITY

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Friday, March 24, consideration in committee of a resolution to grant to His Majesty certain sums of money for the carrying out of measures consequent upon the existence of a state of war-Mr. Ilsley-Mr. Bradette in the chair.

["I was paired with the hon.\nmember for Hamilton East (Mr. Ross). Had I voted I would have voted against Your\nHonour's ruling.\nOn motion of Mr. Douglas (Weyburn) the\ndebate was adjourned.\nOn motion of Mr. Crerar the house adjourned at 11.15 p.m.\nTuesday, March 28, 1944"]
The CHAIRMAN:: Shall item 1 carry?


Stanley Howard Knowles: I should like to revert to the question of synthetic rubber, particularly the set-up of the plant of Polymer Corporation at Sarnia. This is a matter in which there is considerable public interest and concerning which a great deal of information has been made available. Last year we had quite a discussion on it in the house, during which the Minister of Munitions and Supply spoke on Wednesday, June 16. Also last year a number of sessional papers were tabled which provided information on the subject. I refer in particular to sessional papers Nos. 388 and 303A. A number of orders in council respecting this plant have been tabled. There were four in 1942-P.C. 2369, P.C. 3177, P.C. 4252, and P.C. 10008, and there was also P.C. 2799 of April 8, 1943.
In addition to the information which has been brought down in the house, a great deal of publicity has been given the Polymer
1S6S
War Appropriation-Supplies

plant by the press and by magazines. On Thursday, March 23, the matter was discussed again in this chamber and the minister contributed to the debate.
I believe the people of Canada as they get to know some of the facts of the situation will share the pride which the minister has in the Polymer plant. I enjoy the pride which the Minister of Munitions and Supply expresses from time to time in government owned projects. He is sometimes referred to, both by his friends and by his enemies, as the Tory of the present government; yet I know of no one who expresses greater pride in certain projects that are publicly owned. Take for example his attitude towards Trans-Canada Air Lines, which we all share, and his attitude towards the fact that this Polymer plant is owned by the Canadian people.
There is reason for that pride, first of all in the fact that the plant has been completed in rather a short time, considering the difficulties of construction in war time. There is also the fact that the Canadian people, through their government, have found a way to build a plant that will operate on a brand new process. This was not something that could simply be copied; a real pioneering job had to be done. We can also be proud of the fact that when the country was faced with dwindling supplies of rubber it was possible to get this plant into operation speedily enough to make up for the shortages of crude rubber.
I would add my congratulations to those already expressed to the engineers and technicians who designed this thoroughly integrated plant, and brought it into production in such a short time. Through the medium of this plant we have been able to make this very vital contribution to the war effort. Nevertheless I have certain misgivings for the future growing out of the set-up of the plant at Sarnia. I would call the attention of the minister and the committee to these circumstances. Before expressing any misgivings, however, I have tried to convey my feelings of pride, and to voice my commendation with regard to the building of the plant, in the hope that there will be no misunderstanding on that point.
My misgivings relate principally to the post-war period and in particular to the setup of the plant in so far as it is being operated by private firms brought in by the government for this work. Publicity has been given to the fact that the plant is being operated in this way by the terms of order in council P.C. 2799 of April 8, 1943, and also

by the remarks which the minister has made in the house. When I express my misgivings as to what is going to happen in the post-war period I want to make it clear that these misgivings are not those of the hon. member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker). If I understood him correctly, the member for Lake Centre on Thursday of last week, and also in the remarks he made last year, was afraid that in the post-war period it would be against the interests of private enterprise for this plant to be continued as a government-owned project.
If I may say so, I feel that the hon. member does not fully understand the set-up. I cannot see that it is one that is in any way against the interests of private enterprise in the post-war period. On the contrary, my fear is that the set-up we have at the presenttime, if it is continued into the post-war period, is one that will result in the benefit of this government-financed, government-owned project accruing principally to private enterprise. I shall have something to say as I go along with regard to that set-up, as I see it from a study of the documents to which I have referred, and I should be glad if, some time during the debate, the member for Lake Centre would make clear what it is he would like to have done with the plant to make it more beneficial to private enterprise than it will be as it is now arranged.
As I have said, my fear with regard to the post-war period is that the benefit of the plant, in spite of the fact that it has been financed with public funds and is owned by the people, will accrue to private enterprise. The set-up, as the documents indicate, and as the minister has outlined, involves government ownership of the company known as Polymer Corporation Limited. The company to which I have referred has built the plant with government funds. The amount of money is between $45,000,000 and $50,000,000. The government took all the risks in connection with building of the plant in a field in which it was not possible to copy other plants in operation.
My own feeling about it is that the cost of construction has probably been kept down as well as it could under the circumstances. It is inevitable that the building of the first plant of this kind would cost more than the building of any subsequent plant. If there is any such greater cost in connection with the building of the first plant, the govern-

1S69
War Appropriation-Supplies
ment, on behalf of the people, has incurred this greater cost and in that sense has taken the risks of pioneering.
The total cost of the plant is being paid for out of the war appropriation. I do not find anywhere the suggestion that it is to be paid back out of some kind of depreciation later on. It is simply a charge against the war appropriation bill. Having built the plant with public funds and having taken all these risks, the government has then to consider the problem of operating it and producing synthetic rubber, the product for which it was set up. According to the order in council to which I have already referred, P.C. 2799 of April 8, 1943, the plant is being operated by three companies. First of all there is the St. Clair Processing Corporation. I understand that this company operates that part of the plant where butadiene is made from petroleum and also looks after miscellaneous services around the property. Secondly, there is the Dow Chemical Company of Canada Limited, which looks after that part of the plant which produces styrene from petroleum. The third company involved is the Canadian Synthetic Rubber Company, Limited, which, as the minister said the other day, operates the polymerization plant where the two principal elements, butadiene and styrene, are combined into buna-S rubber.
As hon. members know, these three companies, although they are incorporated specifically for the purposes I have indicated, namely, the operation of sections of the Polymer Corporation plant at Sarnia, are subsidiaries of other companies. The St. Clair Processing Corporation is a subsidiary of Imperial Oil Limited. Dow Chemical Company of Canada Limited is a subsidiary of the Dow Chemical Company of the United States, and Canadian Synthetic Rubber Company is a subsidiary owned by four Canadian rubber companies, sometimes referred to as the Big Four in the rubber industry'-Goodyear, Goodrich, Firestone and the Dominion Rubber Company. It is these private corporations that have been called in to operate this government-financed and government-owned plant.
I should like to make a point here about our atittude towards this procedure. It is perfectly clear that the men connected with these private companies are the men who have had the experience and some knowledge of the processes involved. They were the men who should be called in to do this work. That is particularly true at a time such as this when we are calling on all our people to devote whatever abilities they may have to the tasks that must be performed in connection with the war. We are calling upon thousands of our young men to give of their services in the
armed forces and in many cases to give their lives. It is only right and proper, therefore, that the men with the ability and the experience in the lines related to the production of synthetic rubber should be called in to do that particular job. The government would have been remiss had it not called them in. Let that be perfectly clear, so far as our attitude is concerned.
But, Mr. Chairman, here is where1 our viewpoint differs. We feel that the calling in of these men to give of their brains and ability and experience where they could most usefully contribute to the national service should not mean that the corporations with which they are connected should in the period of the war, or in the post-war period, be given any special privileges or special advantages as a result of the war-time necessities of the situation. Yet it is my contention that that is exactly what will happen under the present set-up if it is continued over into the postwar period. Let us look at the situation as it arises out of the procedure which has been followed.
Petroleum is the principal raw material that goes into the production of synthetic rubber at Sarnia. The petroleum from which the gases are taken off for the manufacture of butadiene and styrene comes from Imperial Oil Company, and a subsidiary of the Imperial Oil Company known as the St. Clair Processing Corporation has been called in to operate the part of the plant which does this work. In other words, a private corporation with a particular interest in petroleum is right in there operating that part of the plant.
Similarly, chemicals go into the manufacture of synthetic rubber to a considerable extent. The Dow Chemical Company, through its subsidiary, Dow Chemical Company of Canada Limited, is in there operating that part of the plant where chemicals are most deeply involved. They are naturally interested in chemicals that are used in the production of synthetic rubber, and they are also interested in the new processes by means of which different chemicals can be taken off from petroleum. In other words they are interested in the scientific developments which will be taking place right along as the production of synthetic rubber continues, and, as the minister himself said on Thursday of last week, that is one of the interesting and important phases in the manufacture of synthetic rubber at Sarnia. But what we have done is to put a private corporation with a particular interest in chemicals right inside operating the chemical end of the plant.
Then there is the Canadian Synthetic Rubber Company, which, as the minister has pointed out, is wholly owned by four Canadian rubber
War Appropriation-Supplies

companies. The main purpose of the plant is the production of synthetic rubber, and making that rubber available to rubber manufacturing companies so that they can produce the materials that are necessary in time of war. But when the war is over these same private rubber companies will continue to be interested in the availablility of synthetic rubber for the production of tires and rubber goods of all kinds. In other words, they have a special and a very particular interest in the production of synthetic rubber. They will also have an interest in the quality of that rubber, whether it is kept as high as possible so that tires will last a long time, or whether the grade should be kept down a little so that the consumers will have to buy more tires as time goes on. My point is that in the post-war period the private firms that have the greatest interest in what will be going on at the Sarnia plant, both at the end where the raw materials are taken in and at the other end where the final product is turned out, are right there now doing the operating.
I say again that the government would have been remiss had it not called in the people with the ability to do this sort of job. That does not mean, however, that at the expense of the public you should give special privileges to the corporations behind these men and to the financial interests behind those corporations. I do not relish the idea of attacking individuals in connection with a matter of this kind; yet I think it should be pointed out that along with the taking into the plant of the men who were equipped to do this work, we find that men of high standing in the rubber industry have been called in and placed in positions of high authority. For example, the general manager of the Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company is president of the Polymer Corporation. I find also that the vice-president of the Dominion Rubber Company is the deputy rubber controller in the Department of Munitions and Supply. I have met both these gentlemen, as I have met others in similar positions. They are fine gentlemen; they know their business, and I have nothing against them personally. What does get under my skin, however, is that because their abilities are needed in time of war we put ourselves in the position that we give special profit and special privilege to the corporations behind them, and to the power of finance behind those corporations. These men are interested, as we all are, in the best possible prosecution of the war effort; but also, inevitably, they are interested in +he welfare and profits of the companies on whose payrolls they remain, and with which presumably they will continue to be associated

in the post-war period. It is these men who are in a position to operate this synthetic rubber plant at Sarnia, if they so desire, in such a manner as to make the best possible use of the raw materials that come in at one end, and at the other end to make synthetic rubber available to private rubber companies on terms which will be to the greatest possible advantage of those rubber companies.
If I may elaborate what I said a moment ago in referring to the hon. member for Lake Centre, surely this should make it clear that the set-up is not in any way inimical to the interests of private enterprise; on the contrary it will be of great advantage to them. When people give the benefit of their brains, their ability and their experience, they should receive all praise and full reward; but beyond that, the benefit which accrues from the application of brains, ability and experience in a plant like this, financed by public funds, should go not to private corporations, privately financed, but to the people as a whole.
In time of war, we find ourselves in this position, that at times we have to disregard cost 'and see to it that the materials necessary for the war are produced. To that extent the benefit of this procedure in connection with Polymer accrues to the people as a whole; for we are getting materials of war for our common defence. I want to see that the benefit of this new scientific development, this new project at Sarnia, will continue to accrue to the people of Canada as a whole after the war is over.
Let me repeat the picture as I see it in the post-war period. We shall find that we have at Sarnia a modern synthetic rubber plant, as the minister has said, integrated to a greater extent than any other synthetic rubber plant in North America. I think the minister's invitation to hon. members to visit that plant should be accepted by all who can possibly do so, so that we may share the pride of the minister in the fact that this is our plant, that it belongs to the people,of Canada. But in spite of the fact that it will be our plant this product will be available in the first instance to the private rubber manufacturers; and before it gets to the Canadian people for civilian use in the post-war period it will go through not only the manufacturing but also the economic processes of a private enterprise system, so that the first benefit of this new plant will accrue to these, private corporations and to the financial interests behind them. My desire is that the total benefit of this new idea, the plant having been financed by the people of Canada, should accrue to the Cana-

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dian people as a whole, making allowance for a just reward to the engineers, technicians and workmen who built the plant.
We should take note of the fact that we have paid for this plant in full out of the money provided in the war appropriations. By contrast-perhaps, as a matter of fact, it is not by contrast; perhaps it is the same story in the long run-when the Aluminum Company of Canada, a private corporation, needed to expand its facilities for war-time production, the government decided that it should be given special depreciation so that it could take care of the total cost of that plant during the period of the war. I need not go into that argument again, but we have pointed out that in our view this means that after the war that private company will have increased facilities and increased productive capacity that have been paid for by the people. There is no suggestion of depreciation as far as this government-owned plant is concerned; the argument is that the government owns it anyway, so why depreciate it. I point out, however, that the net result is the same. You allow depreciation in the one instance, which means that the people pay for the plant though it is still in private hands. In the other instance you do not allow depreciation because the people are paying for the plant anyway.


Clarence Decatur Howe: May I ask my hon. friend
what people paid for the aluminum plant?


Thomas Miller Bell: The people of the
united nations.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I do not know that we
want to go into that debate again, but our point in that connection has been that when the price for aluminum was set, it was set at a figure high enough to include depreciation allowances which would take care of the cost of the plant during the three, four or five years of the war. I believe that at the end of 1945 the aluminum plant extensions will be fully paid for. The point I make now is that while one method is followed in one case, that of special depreciation, the method of government ownership without special depreciation is followed in the other, and the net result is the same. At the end of the war both plants are fully paid for. The aluminum company plant is owned by a private corporation, and the Polymer Corporation plant, although owned by the people, is being operated by these private concerns, using their raw materials and turning out products for their use.
There is another way in which it seems to me the government is strengthening the-control of private interests in the rubber industry, as a result of, shall I say war-time necessity. Let me make it clear to the
minister that when Jhe came up against the problem of the cutting off of the supply of crude rubber, after Pearl Harbor, 'he faced the necessity of getting the synthetic plant built and into operation. He called in the people who_ could help him in that job, and we have no' complaint about that. Our contention is, however, that he, the house and country should look at the results of that procedure, so far as the post-war period is concerned. Along with the government money which has gone into the building of the Polymer plant we have also had the expenditure of a considerable sum of government money to enlarge the plants of rubber manufacturing companies.
In the last two or three days we have had circulated among us a little booklet containing a report on the government financed expansion of industrial capacity in Canada as at December 31, 1943. Quotations have been made from it by a number of hon. members. I have gone through it looking for those amounts of money made available by way of capital assistance to private rubber companies. I understand there are fifty or sixty rubber companies manufacturing rubber goods in Canada. Naturally, when there are that many of them a few will be large and many will be small. I have gone through this report to find out what assistance is being given to private rubber companies, and I find that although there are fifty or sixty of those companies manufacturing rubber goods in Canada, the names of only eight such companies appear in this report.
Let me make it clear that I d'o not know the kind of work in which every company listed in the booklet is engaged. Some hon. members may be able to point out that some companies, the names of which do not so indicate, are rubber manufacturing companies. However I have been, able to find only eight. The total amount of capital assistance made available to those eight is, according to this report, $4,861,699. First of all there are the Big Four, the owners of The Canadian Synthetic Rubber Company Limited. I refer to Goodyear, Goodrich, Firestone and Dominion. The other four are Dunlop, Seiberling,. Gutta Percha and Miner. Of that $4,861,699 made available to only eight out of sixty rubber companies in Canada, $3,900,179, or 80 per cent, is made available to the Big Four. If we add in one more, namely Dunlop, and make it the Big Five, we find that they received 86 per cent of the total made available to these companies.
I know the argument is that these were the big companies, and that they were the
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ones that could expand their plants and take on additional orders for the war effort. I shall not take time to deal with it in detail, but I have before me a most interesting sessional paper, No. 139, tabled Friday, January 28, 1944, which sets out the figures respecting contracts let by the 'Department of Munitions and Supply to firms from which it has taken in dollar-a-year men. I find in there some figures as to the size of contracts given to some of the companies I have named as being among the Big Four.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Order; the hon. member has spoken forty minutes.


Mr. ADAMSON:: Last week I asked the Minister of Munitions and Supply whether it would be possible to give us an estimate as to the cost of aircraft. I see that he has produced what appears to be a most excellent graph, showing the ratio between man-hours per pound of airframe produced, and the cumulative aircraft delivered. Would it be possible for him to give that statement to the committee this afternoon?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Hon. members are aware that I have always objected to giving costs in the House of Commons, and I believe it might be well at this time to state my reason for so objecting. The graph I have asked to have distributed to members shows the man-hour performance curve,, of good performance, and used to check the performance of our plants. The elements of cost in an aircraft are, largely, material and labour, the latter being translated into the number of men multiplied by the number of hours they work, expressed by the term man-hours. Materials are fairly constant. It does not matter whether we produce one aircraft, or one hundred, or five thousand; generally speaking material costs are not a variable factor. Aluminum costs the same, and other materials cost about the same.
I would point out, however, that the productions of planes, per man working one hour, changes very rapidly as production continues. If my hon. freind will look at the top curve, he will find that it is a curve showing good performance for a plant making fifteen aircraft a month, while the lower curve is the good-performance curve for a plant making 150 aircraft a month. We have other curves fitting the particular situation we find in any of our plants. If hon. members will look at the bottom curve, showing good performance for 150 aircraft a month, they will see that the cost of man-hours in the one-hundredth aircraft is just about twice the cost of manhours used in producing the one-thousandth aircraft. And the cost of man-hours used in

producing the two-thousandth aircraft is lower still. The contrast is even sharper on the curve above, which applies for smaller production.
My hon. friend may ask me, as he did, as to the cost of producing an aircraft at Victory Aircraft plant. As he will see that cost depends on the particular aircraft that he may select. Each aircraft produced costs less than the preceding one, and that goes on for a considerable time. After the two-hundredth aircraft the man-hour curve begins to level off, and the difference will be less. Therefore it is very unfair to compare performance at one plant, with performance at another, by comparing the cost of current output at each plant. We must know the background; we must know how many units have been produced by one plant, against the number that have been produced by another. We must know the rate of production at one plant as compared with the rate of production at another. I might say that the man-hour factor illustrated on the graph is not confined to aircraft production ; it applies .pretty well to any sort of production that is repetitive in character. It would apply to ships-there is the same progressive reduction in man-hours for the production of ships. The curve also explains why, in ordinary times, we pay more for automobiles in Canada than is paid in the United States. Their production lines are dealing with vastly larger quantities and their man-hour costs per unit usually are much lower than can be obtained with the limited output of our own production lines.
Therefore I hope hon. members will not ask me for the costs per unit of output at our various plants. It would be wholly unfair to give them. Plotted here on this graph are several curves of our own actual performance. I may say that these are kept up to date in our office, and comparisons are made with the curve of good performance. This curve of good performance is used all over this continent for aeroplane mass production work. I may say that our production in terms of man-hours, is very good indeed. Generally speaking, our actual performance is better than the curve of good performance.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Better than?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Better than the curve which has been agreed upon as the curve of good performance. Usually we are below that curve. My hon. friend will see that curve F is the longest of the lot, and he will see at one stage that there is quite a jump in the curve. These jumps are caused by major modifications, or substantial changes in the aircraft,

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which slowed down the rate of output, and temporarily shot up the man-hours per plane. My hon. friend will see that our performance curves follow fairly well the standard curves of good performance. Generally speaking, our costs are very satisfactory when measured with performance and costs in the United States or in the United Kingdom.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Could the minister give the formula for working out these curves?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I cannot.


Agar Rodney Adamson: It is empirical?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is empirical. The plants which are known to be good performers are taken. A study of the industry was made in order to see what should be expected from established plants when bringing new types of aircraft into production.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I thought the committee would be interested in getting some idea of whether we could continue to have an aircraft industry in Canada after the war is over. I think it is important that steps should be taken now in order that the aircraft industry may be perpetuated in Canada. The information that we now have may give a lead as to the possibility of that happening. I understand that the commercial type of aircraft to be produced is the DC-4, which is approximately a 40-place job for commercial transportation. These figures give us some idea of what it is going to mean to the country to maintain an aircraft industry.
An old quarrel between the minister and myself is in connection with the production of aircraft engines. As yet no aircraft engines have been produced in Canada. Do the costs of producing aircraft engines follow these curves if produced elsewhere? In other words, are we now buying Allison engines or Rolls Royce Merlin engines or Packard engines cheaper to-day than we were eighteen months ago? If so, our engine costs must have been reduced very considerably.
I agree with the minister when he says that it is unfair to make comparisons between costs, particularly in connection with experimental types of aircraft. I imagine that a year ago the cost of producing the first two or three Mosquitos was a fabulous sum, and I realize that it would be unfair to compare present costs. But I realize also that we must have some idea of our ability to produce aircraft in competition with other united nations. That is why I asked this question. Is the minister going to place this information on Hansard?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I shall be glad to ask that the graph be placed on Hansard, if I can get unanimous consent.
(The graph referred to-aircraft man-hour performance curves-was published separately.)


Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: A week or so ago I had an opportunity of visiting once more the Victory and de Havilland plants. This was the first visit I had made in about nine or ten months, and I must say that the conditions in both plants seemed to have improved materially over what they were when I was last there. There are some questions I should like to ask in connection with aircraft production and arising out of the questions asked by the hon. member for York West. The minister has indicated that his opinion is that the performance record in Canada is generally lower than the, best performance records in other countries, and I wish to know from the minister if he considers that after the war Canada will be able to produce aircraft in competition with other countries? I noticed that when he spoke the other day in connection with post-war aviation he stated that a vigorous aeroplane construction industry was an essential complement to Canada's postwar aviation plans. I take it from that that when the war is over Canada will continue to produce planes in competition with other countries. On page 1695 of Hansard the minister placed comparative statistics on the production of Mosquitos in the United Kingdom and the United States and he said:
In this connection, I think it may be of value to place on Hansard a table showing the comparative statistics on the production of the Mosquito in the United Kingdom and in Canada. In giving these figures I ask you to remember that the design originated with the English company.
Then he gave figures to show that in nineteen months after commencement of manufacture the cumulative totals of aircraft accepted in Canada and England were nine and five respectively.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I thought I attempted to make it clear when I spoke last time that those figures were for one plant in England, as against one plant here, apparently the de Havilland parent plant in England as against the de Havilland plant in Canada. There are other plants in England producing this machine.


John George Diefenbaker: I took it as a comparison between the best plant in England and the Canadian production; is that correct?

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Clarence Decatur Howe: I would not say for sure, but it is probably the best plant. It is the plant that started as we did to produce the first Mosquito plane.


John George Diefenbaker: The comparison does not give the picture. If the choice of the English factory is not the choice of the best factory in production over there-


Clarence Decatur Howe: It may be. I do not know. It is the one which has been operating the longest.


John George Diefenbaker: How many employees are there in the United Kingdom plant as compared with the number in the Canadian plant? That is a matter which must be known before these statistics become worth while at all. Has the minister that information?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think we have it. In any event, the de Havilland plant is one of the biggest plants in England. It has been in production since the beginning of the war. I dare say it would have the more employees. But I think you would have to go farther and say how many employees were working on the Mosquito, just as at the Toronto de Havilland it is a question of how many employees are working on the Mosquito. We were on other planes when we were starting production of the Mosquito. I think the hon. member is getting into pretty deep water when he asks for that information.


John George Diefenbaker: These statistics
mean nothing as they stand on the record unless it is known how many men in the United Kingdom factory were employed on Mosquitos when compared with the numbers in Canada. That is the point I make in connection with these particular figures which are given, that they may provide a fair comparison; they may be entirely meaningless unless we have information as to the numbers.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Let me put it to my hon. friend in this way. The Mosquito, when it was accepted, was an exceedingly important plane. I think both put on all the men they could use, but how many they put on I do not know. I would find it difficult to ascertain that here in Canada.


John George Diefenbaker: I am not entering into an argument at the moment, but I am pointing out that statistics like those on page 1695 are as meaningless as some of the promises of production which were made by the minister in 1942.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Let us be a little sensible about that. I put the table on Hansard as a matter of information. It means exactly

what is said. It says the performance in the British plant was so much and the performance of the Canadian plant-not my predictions of performance-was so much. I gave the best information I could. Let my hon. friend make the best out of it. If he suggests that anyone connected with the production of aeroplanes in this country is not doing the best he can, let him give us the name and we will consider the situation. This snarling around and trying to make points out of nothing is getting rather tiresome.


John George Diefenbaker: Let me tell the minister this, that in so far as certain types of production are concerned there can be no argument that his predictions made each successive year have not been borne out at all by the performance; and naturally he becomes annoyed,


Clarence Decatur Howe: Give me the predictions I made last year, and see if they have been borne out or not.


John George Diefenbaker: I will refer to that in a moment. Naturally he becomes annoyed. That is always the refuge of the minister in this regard. In November, 1942, he made the statement that three Mosquitos a day would be produced in 1943.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Can the hon. member read that statement to me?


John George Diefenbaker: The minister to Australia at the same time made the statement that "In 1943 we will be producing five per day." These predictions did not come true. Then .the minister comes along on March 21 and places on record the performance in England and the performance in Canada, but does not give the man-power in each engaged on the production of one aeroplane or more, so that the comparison is not helpful to this committee.
I pass on to a matter connected with the improvement of performance and production. Two or three years ago a committee was set up under Mr. Hirst to encourage production and performance. During the past two years another committee has been in operation engaged in encouraging production. It was set up on December 10, 1941. The order creating it states that it was desirable to carry on a campaign of publicity and public education designed to promote and develop a full realization of the gravity of the existing emergency and the necessity of individual and united effort, cooperation and responsibility in order that Canada's participation in the war might be of maximum effectiveness. In that year, Cockfield, Brown and Company Limited

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were placed in charge of the advertising campaign, and they accepted that position without remuneration. During the first year the expenditure amounted, I believe, to around $150,000. I ask the minister now, how was that expenditure justified? In 1942 it was extended for a further year, and on March 30. 1943, it was extended for another year. The order in council extending it for the further year stated that the expenditure upon the campaign from its inception to March 31, 1943, will amount to 8237,000. What is the idea, I should like to ask the minister, after we have already set up a war information board designed to improve morale, to set up a further organization in the minister's department on which the expenditure to the end of March, 1943, was 8237,000, and to which a further amount of $125,000 was allotted for the last year. I ask the minister to explain what has been done with a sum of approximately S360.000 expended under order in council P.C. 9635 and subsequent ones. Who has been in charge of this? Why has it been necessary to make this expenditure under the Department of Munitions and Supply instead of through the war information board or one of the other boards connected with wartime information? It seems to me that that is a very considerable sum to be expended on the improvement of morale in one department when we already have the war information board and other instruments of information engaged in that connection.
I pass on now to post-war aircraft production. It was referred to by the hon. member for York West. The minister made a speech in Washington in December last-


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have never made a speech in Washington in my life.


John George Diefenbaker: The minister was talking to reporters, and the report indicates that it has all the appearances of a speech. He said that the business of transforming from war-time to peace-time manufacture should not be long and would be carried out in stages. Canadian aircraft production could easily be transformed to meet the demands of commercial passenger and freight carrying needs. Mr. Bell, director of aircraft production, in a statement of February 11, 1944, stated that our aircraft industry has bonclusively demonstrated that it is capable of building the largest and most complicated types of operational aircraft in the world. He stressed the necessity of building now in order to ensure the permanent future of this nationally important industry. He says that in order to build up the industry it is necessary that design staffs capable of competing with the 100-1184
world be set up and that manufacturing costs competitive with those of Britain and the United States be established.
I would ask the minister to give the committee and the country a picture with regard to the continuance of these aircraft factories after the war is over. Some 122,000 men and women are engaged in production. Starting almost from scratch, the training of these workers has been a remarkable piece of work. I have visited nearly all of the aircraft plants in the country, and one thing that amazes me is the way in which the men have been trained to do the precision work they do to-day, considering the fact that many of them had never been connected with industry before.
When the war is over, what is to ibe done to ensure the continuance of the industry? I was rather disturbed by the statement made in November 1943, by Frederick Smye, executive assistant to the director general of aircraft production. When referring to the post-war period he was far from hopeful as to the condition of affairs. The hon. member for York West mentioned that we were not producing engines in Canada. Well, in the post-war period, according to Sir Archibald Sinclair, air minister in Great Britain, one of the most important developments in connection with air craft production will be the production of jet-propelled planes. He says it will revolutionize industry.
I would ask the minister whether consideration is now being given to the post-war period in the production of jet-propelled planes, which, it is believed, will in a large measure take the place of planes of the present types. To what extent can any of these factories be turned to the production of helicopters? According to an aeronautics board in the United States, when the war is over they will be used more than any other type of, aeroplane in inter-urban traffic. These are matters that interest the workers in these factories, and it is necessary that they be considered in determining whether or not this great industry that has been built up in war time will in fact be utilized, when peace comes, as a means of ensuring employment and also of establishing Canada's position in the post-war air world.
The minister, in his address on post-war aviation, averred that it was the policy of the government to ensure the production of civilian planes in Canada. I would ask him to enlarge on that and indicate what the plans are. I do not expect them in detail, but I do expect some indication from all the planning committees that have been set up
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with regard to the post-war period so that we may know the numbers the minister believes may reasonably be employed in the aircraft industry when the -war is over.
In connection with civil aviation in Canada I would also ask to what extent expansion will take place so as to employ the 25,000 referred to by Doctor George Weir in his report on the post-war.
All of us are pleased, with the increase in production of aircraft, and most of us feel that the use of trained personnel in the post-war should not be lost sight of by lack of planning now.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Apparently there are two
outstanding questions, one of which is: Why did the department interest itself in personnel work? Every production organization in every allied country has carried on programmes of the type that has been carried on by the Department of Munitions and Supply. The programme to which the hon. member referred was not confined to aircraft production. It covered the entire field of war production. The expenditure was not great in proportion to the size of our programme, measured by similar expenditures in any other country. It had nothing in particular to do with the work of the war information board except that it was coordinated with the work of that body. The purpose of our expenditure was intended to reach the personnel of war plants, whereas the purpose of the war information board is to reach all the people of Canada and of countries outside Canada.
The money has been well spent. Most plants have a plant publication put out by the employees, and part of the service is to provide up-to-date news for plant publications and to encourage their production. Another object has been to bring information home from the front lines regarding the use of a particular product. When a submarine is sunk it is a matter of interest to the men and women who were engaged in building the corvette that sank that submarine, or in building components of that corvette, to have that news in pictorial form.
Then there is the matter of plant entertainment in plants in more isolated communities. A good deal has been done in the making and distribution of moving pictures and providing projection equipment for the plants. Also, it has been found that for many types of production music in the plant during working hours has a stimulating effect on the workers and prevents fatigue. That has been introduced into plants.
(Mr. Diefenbaker.]
That covers generally the scope of the work. It is well established to-day, and expenditures are dropping materially. Expenditures will be much less for the current year than previously.
The results are wholly intangible. One man could argue that there have been no results, while another could argue that the results have been excellent. I do not care to enter into that sort of argument. I am always a sceptic in matters I do not understand, and I should not like to appear as a witness as to whether the results obtained in the morale building campaign were worth the money or not. That will have to remain a matter of opinion.
As far as the future of the aircraft industry is concerned, that of course is a very large question indeed. If my hon. friend, or anyone else, could tell me when the problem will arise and what the conditions at that time will be, it would be very much easier to forecast the future. If I were sure that the war would stop in July of this year, I might be able to give an answer. If the war should go on for two more years the answer I gave to-day would certainly be used against me by the hon. member if he and I were both in the house at the time, because the situation then would be so different that my answer then would probably be different.
We are paying some attention to the postwar situation. We have a cargo plane in production here, and have had for some two years. It was an excellent cargo plane before the war, is still the best of its type, and will certainly continue to be produced to meet post-war requirements.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Is that the Norseman?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. We have taken what we believe to be the plane most likely to succeed in the next five years, the Douglas DC-4. We have obtained manufacturing rights for that plane, and manufacturing has been started at the government-owned plant operated by Canadian Vickers at Montreal. That will certainly be a post-war project. Two intermediate types of planes are required as between those two, a small transport plane and a medium transport plane. Several designs are being studied, and out of them will come two or three types which should have substantial use in this country, and which can be put into production quickly.
We are also interested in a transatlantic type of plane. The design for that is well advanced, and it is probable that that may be added to the types of planes which will be produced post-war.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Is it of Canadian design?

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Clarence Decatur Howe: Combination, Canadian and British. So much for types of planes.
As far as engines are concerned we are in a happy position. Up to this time, we have never had an airframe awaiting an engine. We have always been able to obtain the engines we have required during a very tight period of supply. We are now coming to a period where engine production will be well ahead of requirements, and, not being tied to any particular engine of Canadian manufacture, we can go out and buy any engine in the world, and buy it on favourable terms. So that the necessity for using one particular engine is not a problem to our designers. It would be unfortunate if it were so, because aeroplane engines are subject to frequent changes. It takes three or four years of experiments to bring out a new type of engine, and by the time manufacture is started the designers would know of a better engine that could be built. Large expenditures are devoted to development work. Production is in great quantity when the new type arrives. We in Canada have the choice of the production of both the United States and Great Britain. As my hon. friend has stated, it is quite likely that aeroplane engines as we know them to-day are becoming obsolescent. We are not sure of that, but there is a suspicion that that is so.
For the past two years Canada has been actively associated with the development of the new type engine, the jet-propulsion engine. We have had a strong team in England working with the designers of the engine, and with three or four plants which are engaged in development wTork. Part of the development work has been moved to Canada. We are conducting cold-weather experiments on the various types of jet-propulsion engines as they are produced, to determine the relative merits of each type under conditions of extreme weather. I can assure hon. members that we shall be in a position to start from scratch in the development of jet-propulsion engines. We are capable of starting on even terms with other countries and since no one will have any particular advantage in the building of jet-propulsion engines, I think we should be warranted in undertaking engine-building with some prospect of success.


Mr. NOSEWORTHY:: There are several questions I wish to ask the minister. I think he will realize that when the estimates of the war ministers were under review it was understood that much of the money they were asking the house to vote was to be spent by the Department of Munitions and Supply, so that we have to direct our questions to the minister of that department.
The first question I wish to raise is this: What provision has the government made for ensuring accuracy as to the cost of planes and other goods produced on the cost-plus type of contract? I am told by engineers in many plants that in estimating the cost of this production the government is obliged to depend on the records and books of the companies engaged in this business; that the only inspectors the government has of costs are the accountants and bookkeepers who check the records of the firms producing these goods, that there are not in many plants engineers or technical men who are capable of telling how many machines are required for the production of a special job, how much of machine tools is require, and what number of man-hours should go into the job, and that the government is pretty much at the mercy of the records of private companies in this matter. Would the minister make a statement on that?
Second is the question of subcontracts. Has the government any check on the letting of subcontracts, either with reference to the efficiency of the firm that received the contract, or with reference to the costs charged for these contracts? Here again I am hearing continually that subcontracts are passed on from two or three individuals. I heard of one instance where a subcontract had changed hands seven times and only the seventh man received the contract andi produced the goods, and that in each instance there was a profit of some kind charged.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think that is information which my hon. friend is in duty bound to give the government. If that happened; if there were six rake-offs in subcontracts, the government should certainly know it and be in a position to prosecute. Is my hon. friend prepared to give the names?


Joseph William Noseworthy: I can give the minister the name of the plant in which the contract was let. The difficulty is that the men in those plants are under oath not to give information.


An hon. MEMBER:: Then how do you know?


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend is mistaken. He has been dragging his line into deep water unless he can prove his statement that a contract has passed through six hands before the goods were finally produced. It is his duty as a member to give his proof of that statement.


Joseph William Noseworthy: I am simply asking-
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Clarence Decatur Howe: The hon. member said he knew of his own knowledge what happened. Let him not shift his ground. There must be some sense of responsibility on the part of a member speaking in this house. The hon. member has made a statement and I have asked for the names.


Joseph William Noseworthy: My statement is that I was told by a responsible man of contracts-this is common information around the town^-


Clarence Decatur Howe: Let us make it common information here. If you have information it is your duty to give it to this committee. Unless you are prepared to give the name of the man from whom you obtained the information, or unless you are prepared to give the hands through which it passed, you are not giving information but just spreading mud. I think that is what you are doing. You have made a definite charge on that point. Now give us the information.
Mr. NOSEWORTHY': I did not make the definite statement that it happened. I made the statement that I have been told that this sort of thing is going on. I have no means of investigating it. The minister has every chance of investigating these things. I am asking the minister what check his department has on the giving of subcontracts. I think if he investigates he will find that numbers of subcontracts are let more than once, and that in many cases it is not the man who first receives the subcontract who finally produces the goods.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I deny that absolutely. If my hon. friend can give me one example, of a subcontract being sublet twice or three times, or any other number of times-I will not insist upon seven times-I will apologize to him on the floor of the house.


Joseph William Noseworthy: I have to accept the minister's statement and assume that he has sufficient checks to see that this does not happen. I shall see if I can get definite information and give the minister examples as to where I have been informed this has happened.
Another question I should like to ask the minister pertains to a matter which came to my attention in Saint John, with regard to shipbuilding. When I was there in October shipbuilders employed in the harbour brought to my attention the fact that a superintendent, I think brought down from the Toronto Shipbuilding company, ordered practically all the carpenters working on that ship to set about building a superstructure over the deck, notwithstanding the fact that practically all the deck work has been done, and the further
[Mr. Noseworthv.l
fact that these men were accustomed to build ships during the fall and winter months without the protection of any deck structure. My information, gathered at that time, was that practically all the carpenters were taken off the ship and put to work building this structure; that trusses were erected over the deck of the ship; that the legs of those trusses were set in sockets made of steel and welded to the deck of the ship. It was estimated by carpenters employed on that boat that about forty thousand feet of lumber was used in the construction of that structure. Panels were made of matched lumber, much of it long lengths of Douglas fir, matched spruce, four by four timbers and so on. About a month later I learned that practically all the carpenters working on the ships at that point were called in to rush this structure to completion, and that within a matter of days after it was finished the same men were called in to dismantle it because the ship was required to make a trial run, and could not make it with that structure superimposed upon the deck. It was a matter of considerable criticism among carpenters and shipbuilders there, and I think the minister should give us some information on the subject.
There is another matter to which I wish to direct the attention of the minister. Here again I do not want him to consider that I am making a charge against his department. I am passing on to him information that has been given to me.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Is my hon. friend prepared to take the responsibility for the information he is giving? If he is. not prepared to take that responsibility, then I suggest he should not give it. My hon. friend is simply spreading gossip as fact.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Has the minister started to make a new set of rules for this house?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Any hon. member can bring any matter before the minister and ask him to look into it.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Sit down.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I will not sit down.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have the floor.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: While I am on my feet might I suggest that the minister might start addressing the Chair instead of saying "you" across the floor of the chamber.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: The minister addressed the Chair when he rose.

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Clarence Decatur Howe: I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that my hon. friend is drawing upon all the gossip he has picked up around the country, and is giving it in this house as facts. When an hon. member makes a statement in the house I think he must assume responsibility for it. My hon. friend made the statement here to-day that contracts are passed through six or seven hands before the work is performed. That is a very serious statement. If it were true, my department would deserve from the people of Canada the greatest censure that could be imagined. It is not true; it is wholly untrue, but the hon. member makes the statement. Now he proposes to make another statement. He does not know whether or not it is true; it is just something people have told him. Is this the place to retail irresponsible gossip?


Joseph William Noseworthy: The minister knows very well that hon. members have the greatest difficulty in getting accurate information. Rumours can be heard all across this country; I am sure every hon. member must have heard, from men working in various plants, of the things that are going on. These men are under oath not to pass on that information to anyone.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Let me settle that point. So far as I know there is no man in any plant in this country who is under oath, unless he is handling very confidential work. Let us not talk about the ordinary worker in the plant being under oath.


Joseph William Noseworthy: Then let me get back to the question. The minister objects to my asking for information on facts that have been laid before me.


Clarence Decatur Howe: You ask the questions and let me give you the facts. You are giving the facts.


Joseph William Noseworthy: On Thursday last the hon. member for Lake Centre referred to the situation at the Sutton Horsley plant at Leaside. The minister may have answered the question which was asked, but following the question there was quite a melee, and though I looked through Hansard I could not find any answer or explanation by the minister in regard to the situation prevailing there. To-day I have a letter from the president and secretary of lodge 1673 of the International Association of Machinists, which operates in that plant, and they tell me-


Clarence Decatur Howe: Read the letter and then lay it on the table.


Joseph William Noseworthy: I am quite prepared to read this letter.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Never mind explaining it.


Joseph William Noseworthy: It is written on
behalf of the employees and reads:
We, the employees of Sutton Horsley Limited, Leaside, Ontario, members of Local 1673 of the International Association of Machinists, strongly protest the chaotic condition existing in our plant which is engaged in a vital war industry of manufacturing aircraft instruments, the most important plant of its kind in Canada.
In March, 1943, R. J. Pinchin was appointed by order in council as controller of above company, as we understood, to build this company up. During his controllership things have gone from bad to worse to the extent that out of approximately 1,200 employees we now have less than 400, with layoffs continuing from day to day and rumours that the plant will close down in about six weeks.
It is needless to emphasize the moral effect this has upon the workers in the plant and their families whose sons, husbands and brothers are fighting for the Four Freedoms. This condition is inconsistent with a total war effort and also shows the complete lack of preparation towards a post-war plan of work and security.
This letter is signed by the president and the secretary of the union. I do not know these men, but I draw the matter to the minister's attention, and ask if he will make a statement as to prevailing conditions in that plant.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Who signed the letter?


Mr. NOSE WORTHY:: Do the rules of the committee require that that be given?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Oh, yes.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: They certainly do.


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend has read the letter. Of course he will table it; that is always done. He need not worry about it, because I got a letter, too. I could table that, as well.


Thomas Miller Bell: I do not think the rules of the house require it; although I believe there is no objection to tabling the letter. I believe the hon. member will do it, voluntarily.


Clarence Decatur Howe: If my hon. friend will read Hansard he will find I made a statement a few days ago respecting the situation at that plant. The fact of the matter is that the plant is making instruments for trainer aircraft. The production of trainer aircraft has dropped very sharply and quickly. The result is that fewer instruments are required, and therefore Sutton Horsley is called upon to make fewer instruments. The fact of the controller's being appointed has not much to do with the volume of work. The purpose in having the controller was to straighten out
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an unsatisfactory financial condition. That has been done, and Sutton Horsley are doing all the work we have for them to do, and will continue to do so.


Joseph William Noseworthy: Will the minister make a statement respecting the other points mentioned?


Lionel Chevrier: I can answer the hon. member's first question, namely as to the checks or controls we had over cost-plus contracts. Last year I made a statement in the house respecting the nature of contracts, and the whole purchasing method in the Department of Munitions and Supply. If the hon. member will turn to page 3646 of Hansard he will find what those checks are. To speak succinctly, they are three in number, the first of which is the cost accountant, the next the representative of the Department of Munitions and Supply, and the third is the director-general of the programme. Those three officers exercise checks over cost-plus contracts.
The cost accountant is, of course, an officer of the treasury branch, and works hand in hand with our officers. They are found in all our plants across the country. There are hundreds of such cost accountants, in the plants. That officer works in conformity with a strict formula which I placed on Hansard on, the occasion to which I have referred, giving those things which can be charged as items of cost, and those which could not be so charged. Then I believe the war expenditures committee made a finding that there were not nearly enough cost accountants, and every effort was being made to obtain as many as could be found.
Then, in each plant there is a representative of the Department of Munitions and Supply. Those representatives are officers of our department who worked in conjunction with the cost accountants. Finally, there were the directors-general of each of the programmes in the department.
Those three officers exercised a check or control over cost-plus contracts. Then the hon. member asked a question regarding subcontracts, but I am not in a position to give him the details he sought. He will find that at the last session of parliament the house gave the Department of Munitions and Supply certain powers over subcontracts. That was done under the Department of Munitions and Supply Act. I believe there he will find set out a number of the powers possessed by the department with reference to subcontracts.


Joseph William Noseworthy: I have never questioned the fact that there are a number of cost accountants to inspect the contracts. But has

the government in those plants engineers who are competent to know whether too many machines or too many tools are being used, or whether too much time has been charged against a government job? Are there any engineers who know what should go into a construction job?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes; in almost all plants across Canada there is a resident representative from the Department of Munitions and Supply, and he remains in the plant.


Mr. FURNISS:: Since the hon. member for York South has been making statements which have been questioned, I should like to take a few minutes of the time of the committee to correct a statement he made in the house on Thursday afternoon of last week. The statement to which I refer is found at page 1785 of Hansard for March 23, where the disposition of the plant at Nobel, Ontario, is being discussed. After the hon. member had described the plant at some length he said this, respecting the industry at Nobel.
The industry is the only industry between Orillia and Sudbury, a distance of from 175 to 180 miles, the only one from Georgian bay to Pembroke, a strategic position for a peace-time industry.
I understand the hon. member for York South is a schoolteacher, and if he did not know from his knowledge of geography that that was a misstatement, then he should have known from his knowledge of the district. He must know that within the area he mentioned lies practically the whole of the district of Muskoka, and he must know, too, that there are three good-sized towns in that area, namely Gravenhurst, Bracebridge and Huntsville, each of which has industries.
Had the hon. member taken the time or the trouble to find out whether or not there were any industries in that district, he would have found that in the town of Huntsville there is a large tannery operated by the Anglo-Canadian Leather company, the largest producer of sole leather in the British empire. He would have found out further, that in that town there is a large mill and factory operated by the Muskoka Woods company, which claims to be the largest manufacturer of birch and maple hardwood flooring in Canada.
Coming south to the town of Bracebridge, he would have found, among other industries too numerous to mention, the Bird Woollen company, the quality of whose products has a nationwide reputation. Coming down to Gravenhurst, he would have found the Rubber-set company, whose products are marketed throughout Canada and part of the United States. In addition to these, it might be of interest for him to know that the boatbuilders

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in Muskoka, at Bracebridge, Graven-hurst, Port Carling and Honey Harbour have completed nineteen Fairmiles for the British and Canadian- navies. The Fairmile is 112 feet long with a beam of eighteen feet and a top speed of twenty-five miles an hour. It is a splendid craft. In addition to that they have contracts for two mine-sweepers of much larger dimensions. Besides these craft they have completed some 600 smaller craft, including motor-boats, live-saving boats and other types. That is not a bad showing for a district represented by the hon. member as having no industries whatever. I think the statement he made is a reflection upon the enterprise of -the people I have the honour to represent. I could not let it pass without comment and I know the people I represent would not want me to. I do not know what his intention- was in making such a statement unless he intended to convey the idea that if the plant at Nobel was not put in operation again there would -be no industry to absorb these people.
I have listened to hon. members criticizing the industries which have grown up during the last thirty-five years and I cannot help thinking what the course of the war would have been had those gentlemen been on this side of the house and in control of the government. What would have happened if they had dictated the war policy of this country? We know what their policy has been. I shall not go over it again since it has been placed on Hansard many times. At a time when Great Britain faced her greatest crisis; at a time when she was suffering for the cause of freedom-to an extent never equalled by any other nation, we know they would have denied- the people of Great Britain the consolation of knowing there was an air force, a navy and an army being prepared in this country with feverish haste to go to their assistance at the earliest possible moment. No one can say what the course of war might have been if the people of Great Britain had not known they had the support of the first nation in the British commonwealth of nations outside of Great Britain.
I wish to say a word on behalf of the Minister of Munitions and Supply. This is not my word alone; I am passing on the word that comes to me from everyone in my riding with whom I have talked. He is doing a first-class job. Those same words can be said of every member of the cabinet who has anything to do with the war. I have heard friends of mine who are strong Conservatives say that this government is doing a first-class job, and I agree with them. In place of criticizing things that have no bearing upon the course 100-119
of the war, we should be ready to give more credit to the government for what they are doing.


Joseph William Noseworthy: In reply to the hon. member for Muskoka-Ontario may I say that I am sure the people of his constituency will appreciate the way he has come to the defence of his district. Perhaps I should have qualified my statement. When I referred to industry in that district I was referring to the plant at Nobel, which I contended should be retained as a peace-time industry. I have no doubt that the hon. member who has just spoken and all the people in his constituency will agree that there is a great need for a large peace-time industry in that district. I know of no part of Ontario that suffered more in the years before the war because of a lack of employment than the district represented by the hon. member.


Thomas Miller Bell: I should like to ask the minister a question. This is not intended as criticism but is merely a means of getting information which I think will be interesting to all members of the house. This question may have been asked previously, although I did not hear it when I was in the house, nor could I find it in Hansard. What is the present position of the Canol project? Is it to be completed? There has been a good deal of discussion about this and I have not heard a definite statement as to just what is the present situation.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not know whether I can give my hon. friend the information he requires. The Canol project is a United States project. The only part Canada has in it is that we allow the use of certain of our territory for exploration purposes, and have permitted the United States government to build a pipeline and refinery on Canadian territory. As far as I know the work is in progress.


Thomas Miller Bell: Have we any interest in the ultimate disposition of the project if it is to be completed? If it is completed it seems to me that it will have some bearing upon the matters we are discussing, because it would affect the supply of oil and so on.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The regulations have been tabled and I do not think there is anything new to report. It does not come within the orbit of my department.


Thomas Miller Bell: Has it been completed?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think the pipeline has been completed and the refinery is in operation. I do not know that the project itself can ever be completed, but I presume that it is being enlarged.

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Thomas Miller Bell: Has it been completed up to the point it was intended to complete it?


Gordon Graydon: We had better let the hon. member for Yukon answer since he knows all about it.


George Black: The government has already announced the terms upon which the Canol project is being carried on. I understand that at a certain time after the war representatives of Canada and the United States will value the project. If Canada does not choose to buy it within a certain time, then it will be sold by public tender. The pipeline is only a four-inch line. I understand that it is completed and that the refinery is in a fair way to get into operation in May. Further than that I cannot say anything.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Perhaps I could add a word to that. There was an exchange of notes between Canada and the United States covering the development. Then regulations were issued in connection with certain areas and were tabled in the house at the last session. Those regulations set out the conditions under which Imperial Oil are operating. The arrangements that Imperial Oil have with the United States war department are, of course, a matter between that company and the war department of the United States.


Thomas Miller Bell: This is in Canadian territory and surely we should be able to get some information about a project of this dimension. Just what is the situation? Has the project been successful in finding sufficient oil to justify the operation of a refinery? Are we interested in the project, as is indicated by the documents tabled at the last session? I ask these questions innocently because I wish to be able to satisfy requests for information which I receive from people who are interested in this particular project.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think my hon. friend will recognize just as quickly as anyone in the house that the United States war department are interested through arrangements made with Imperial Oil in a development that was undertaken for the purpose of ensuring a certain oil supply for defence purposes in the northwestern part of Canada and of Alaska. That was undertaken at a time when the Japanese menace looked a great deal more threatening than it is to-day. I do not know how far the government are at liberty to disclose arrangements which involve the government of the United States through its war department. The regulations, which after all are the important thing so far as this country is concerned, were 
tabled; that is, the conditions under which Imperial Oil undertook the developments. So far as the pipeline is concerned, I believe that it is completed, but I am not in a position to say at the moment whether oil is going from Norman wells to the refinery at White Horse because I have not at the moment information on that particular point. But the whole matter was one which was entered into between the government of Canada and the government of the United States, and if my memory is right, the understanding which was covered by the exchange of notes has already been given to the house. However, my memory on this point may be at fault! If the exchange of notes has not been tabled, there is a very goofi reason, because the Canadian government would have to have an agreement with the government of the United States on a matter of that kind.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


Clarence Gillis: The remarks I have to make I would prefer to make when the minister is present.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am always present.


Clarence Gillis: This afternoon, on the orders of the day, I endeavoured to get from the minister an answer as briefly and as explicitly as possible with regard to this question of closing plants in the maritime provinces. The Minister of Labour (Mr. Mitchell) answered most of that question, but I was not quite satisfied with the replies he gave. As the minister is well aware, there is considerable reason for unrest and apprehension in the maritime provinces with respect to the closing of plants. Not very much industry has been created in those three provinces as a result of the war, and there was very little there prior to the outbreak of the war. During the session of the house, from different sections of the maritime provinces, telegrams of protest and inquiries are being sent in.
The question I attempted to raise this afternoon had reference to the closing down of the Clark Ruse aircraft plant both in Nova Scotia and in New Brunswick. The Minister of Labour, in his reply, ridiculed, in my opinion, those who were sending in the telegrams of protest and tried to make it appear that one man sent in the telegrams and that there was no one in the organization he represented who held the views he expressed in that telegram. I

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believe the hon. member for York West asked a question on Friday and read a telegram into the records.


Gordon Graydon: No. He did not read a telegram into the record; he just referred to it.


Clarence Gillis: He summarized it. I did not
base my question this afternoon on that particular telegram. The fact is, that I sent that telegram across the floor of the house to the Minister of Labour and asked him if he would check it up and determine whether there was merit in the proposals which it contained with respect to the procedure of lay-off. In addition to that telegram, I had a shower of other messages over the week-end from men, some of whom I know personally and for whom I have a good deal of respect, and the telegrams I received from Moncton and from the province of Nova Scotia were not quarrelling with the administration of the selective service regulations.
We know, and the senders of the telegrams know, that under the selective service regulations a certain definite road must be followed with respect to lay-offs, but the inquiries and the protests I received were as to the future of these plants in Nova Scotia, and as to whether the government had a policy with regard to the utilization of the Clark Ruse aircraft plants in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. That, I submit, is a question to which the Minister of Munitions and Supply should give an answer to the members of this house.
The Minister of Labour, in his remarks this afternoon, breezily brushed to one side the question of men being laid off, with the observation that a large percentage of them were going into the armed services and would be immediately called up as they were laid off. That I think is a bad answer and a bad attitude to take. If the only redress that the government has to offer men who are being displaced in industry in the maritime provinces, because of the closing down of these industries, is the answer, "Oh, well; immediately you are put out of a job in those provinces we will call you up to the armed services and give you the privilege of going overseas and fighting for the country," it is not a solution. It is a callous way of putting the thing, and one which I think was ill-advised on the part of the Minister of Labour.
What we are concerned to know is whether, after the crown has created these plants at considerable expense to the taxpayers, it is not possible now to utilize both the plant in Moncton and the plant in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, for other purposes. I feel that all the 100-1191
members from Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Prince Edward Island, have, on this particular question, a definite responsibility to those provinces.
These plants were built up, as the minister pointed out, for the purpose of aircraft repairs. and a few days ago he made a statement in the house to the effect that Canada expects to play a definite and important part in civil aviation after the war is over. If that is true, then both the Dartmouth plant and the Moncton plant are strategically located. There are large aerodromes which no doubt will be used in that civil aviation project, and these repair plants would, I think, fit quite definitely into a scheme of servicing aircraft after the war.	[DOT]
Practically every newspaper that one has picked up in the last four or five months has carried a story about the closing down of something in the way of industry in the maritime provinces. During the last session of the house we heard of shipbuilding plants that had been built up-Ferguson Brothers, for example, where there w'ere partly completed boats, with sufficient material to complete them, and overnight the order was cancelled. Partly completed tugs were put on board the train and shipped to Montreal to be completed, and the materials were taken away. Next we hear of the Trenton shell plant. That is down and twelve hundred or thirteen hundred men are thrown out of employment. There is a good deal of the taxpayer's money in that plant. It is just another shut-down.
Telegrams now tell us that aircraft plants are being closed down, and picking up another press clipping of March 22 we find that they are laying off the entire female personnel of Enamel and Heating Products Limited of Sackville, New Brunswick. The whole story all along the line, as far as the industrial setup in the maritime provinces is concerned, is a matter of going out of production and laying off people, leaving them idle, and no one apparently has plans for the utilization of these plants or of the equipment, or for seeing whether they can be used in the future. It is just a matter of closing them out.
The minister this afternoon made a statement with respect to the fuel policy and definitely stated that certain subsidies are to be established in the west and that a royal commission is to be appointed for the purpose of examining the whole fuel situation of western Canada with the end in view of establishing a peace-time fuel policy in the western provinces. When the hon. member for York-Sunbury asked him whether the Minto field and the fields of eastern Canada
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were to be included in this royal commission's probe, with a view to developing a fuel policy for -the future, I at least understood the minister to say that the eastern end of the country was not to be included in the investigation.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. I announced a subsidy policy for western Canada, and I said that consideration had been given to revision of subsidies for the Minto field and that I expected to make a statement on that subject within a day or two. I said that the subsidy situation in Nova Scotia is being studied. As a matter of fact, we have called in experts to make a report on the Nova Scotia situation. I said definitely that the royal commission is for all Canada, to review the coal policy for all Canada and recommend such changes as the situation may call for.


Clarence Gillis: I beg the minister's pardon. I understood that in replying to the hon. member for York-Sunbury he was referring to the terms of reference of the royal commission to be appointed. I am very glad indeed that the minister has decided to have a complete examination made of the whole fuel situation by a royal commission with a view to recommending a national fuel policy that will be carried into the post-war period. This is a step in the right direction, and I compliment the minister upon taking it.
What I particularly rose to question the minister about to-night was the pulling out of established industries in Nova Scotia. I should like to hear from the minister whether the government has any policy with regard to using the shell plant at Trenton, if not for the production of shells, for any other purpose for which the plant can be used.
I would also like to know what is to be the future of the two aircraft plants at Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, and Lakeburn, New Brunswick. I think the people of the maritime province are entitled to an answer. If these plants are to oe closed, the people have a right to know t, so that they can make other arrangements. If they are not to be closed but can be refooled and used for some other purpose, the people who are dependent on these plants as i means of livelihood have a right to know it.
I see the Minister of Labour is here. I made a few remarks in his absence, and so that there may be no misunderstanding I should like him to hear exactly what I had to say. I think the Minister of Labour in his reply to a question this afternoon was not very happy in his answer. I consider that his answer was breezy, ill-advised and ill-considered.


Mr. GREEN:: But otherwise all right?


Clarence Gillis: I refer to this statement with respect to these plants being virtually closed

and some three hundred men being laid off at both of them, that selective service was handling the problem as prescribed by the regulations-with that I do not quarrel-and that there was not much to worry about because a large percentage of these men, immediately after losing their employment in the aircraft plants, would be called up for military service. That is the part of his answer with which I quarrel. It was an unhappy remark. It does not induce a very good frame of mind in a man entering the armed service.


Humphrey Mitchell: My hon. friend does not object to a man defending his country, does he?


Clarence Gillis: I certainly do not, and I do not think anybody would understand me as saying that. The impression of the minister's statement on my mind and on that of the average man-


Mr. GRANT:: Oh, no.


Clarence Gillis: Well, then, say below the average. If I were employed in one of these Clark Ruse plants-and remember I know many of these men who, during the days between the two wars never had a job at all- this is how I would feel. I would say to myself: "I have a family. I have accepted the obligations of doing what I could in the field of production"

a lot of these men were trained for that purpose. Overnight, orders come to close the plant and my job is gone. There is no other job for me to go to in that part of the country because industry which had started up there by virtue of the war has closed down. Now I am told to report to the selective service office. The selective service officer advises me to report for duty. I am not enlisting voluntarily. I am not being given an opportunity to decide for myself whether I am going to fight for my country. In effect I am being forced into the service by virtue of economic circumstances. I am leaving my country to go into military service because there is no job here for me, because a member of the government, who is responsible, makes the observation in the house when discussing this question that that is the solution of the problem caused by the closing down of plants in the maritime provinces.
That is not a very happy frame of mind with which to send a man into the armed services. Certainly it is not a solution of the problem of scrapping industries in a section of the country that is badly in need of stimulation for industry. Is that to be the attitude not only with respect to those now losing their employment, but with respect to post-war employment when the men return from overseas?

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In order to clarify things and satisfy the people of the maritimes, who are viewing the situation very seriously, the Minister of Munitions and Supply should make a definite statement one way or the other, so that we may know what to expect in the future and on the basis of that may be able to regulate our lives. If it' is the intention to siphon off everyone from that section of the country who is able to work, and bring them into the central provinces, we have a right to know it so that we can make arrangements to move our families and live somewhere else. The trend of events, as I have seen it in the past year at least in the maritime province, is to pull out all war industry that has been created there. There is no thought of expansion or development of that industry but rather the closing of it down. Would the minister make a statement on that question?


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: I too, like the hon. member for Cape Breton South, have received telegrams in connection with the closing of the Clark Ruse plant at Dartmouth, and so has my colleague the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Macdonald). We were naturally concerned because the plant is in our constituency, just as we would be concerned by the closing of plants in any part of Nova Scotia, which would naturally receive our attention. We discussed the matter together, but we did not bring those telegrams here on Friday afternoon and place them before the minister on the orders of the day; we felt there was another procedure which perhaps would give us a better understanding of the situation. My colleague and I got in touch with officials of the Department of Munitions and Supply, who went rather fully into the background of the plant at Dartmouth, as to the purpose for which it was first brought into being. We were told that it was established for the purpose of overhauling and repairing aeroplanes of the type that were used on the Atlantic coast, and we were further informed that a change had been made in the kind of aeroplane used there. I need not give the names of the planes, but we were given that information, I considered in a confidential way, and that was the reason for the situation which then existed at that plant. The Royal Canadian Air Force notified the Department of Munitions and Supply of the change that was to be made in the type of planes to be used, and steps were taken immediately to cut down the number of men employed there because, as they stated frankly, they did not think the people of Canada would want three or four or five hundred men employed for a certain period of time unless there was actually work for them to do, particularly when these men could be placed in useful employment elsewhere.
That was the reason given us, but we were not entirely satisfied that we had the whole story, with due respect to those who gave us that information. Accordingly we went further.
I personally took up the matter with the Minister of Labour, who said he could assure me that these men would be placed in other positions. More than that, he said they were immediately taking steps to send officials from the selective service office at Halifax to look after the placing of these men elsewhere. He said, "These men are not going to be thrown out of employment without notice. They have received seven days notice, and even if they have no work to do they will be paid for the seven days which that notice covers." In view of the fact that there was no work for these men, and that the department was endeavouring to find work for them elsewhere, we felt that this was a reasonable stand to take, but we pursued the question further. We went to the director of aircraft production, Mr. Bell, and inquired as to what action was taken to meet the layoff of these five hundred men, and as to whether the plant would be continued even on a temporary basis. We were told that the plant would be continued for a further period of three months with about 250 employees. Then naturally we wanted to know whether the plant could not be used for some other purpose, but he did not see how that could be done nor did the Department of Munitions and Supply. We suggested that it might be used in connection with the ship repair work being carried on in the port of Halifax, but they did not think that was feasible.
I wanted to explain this to you, Mr. Chairman, and to the other members of the committee, to indicate that more than one hon... member was interested in maintaining industries in the province of Nova Scotia, that others were equally interested but approached the subject in a little different manner. I am pleased to say that we have the assurance that the plant will be held as a stand-by. The equipment will be kept there, in case it might be of use at some future date for the work for which it was brought into being, namely, the repair and overhaul of certain types of aircraft; and I am still hopeful that use will be made of this plant. I am just as much concerned as .any other hon. member that we should hold on to what industries we have in the maritimes, particularly plants in connection with aircraft and shipbuilding.
I do not wish to deal with .the other two plants mentioned by the hon. member for Cape Breton South. He referred to the closing down of the plant at Trenton, and that matter has been brought to the attention of this committee on more than one occasion. It
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is under investigation at the present time, and again I say I am hopeful that something may turn up as a result of which work will be continued there. The hon. member has also brought to the attention of this committee in almost the same words the situation prevailing at Pictou in connection with the plant of Ferguson Brothers. The Minister of Munitions and Supply gave a full explanation as to why it was necessary to cancel the contract there and carry on the work elsewhere, so -that I do not think it is necessary to go into that question at the present time. I would point out that the same situation will prevail in other parts of Canada. Because of a change in the system of training, numbers of airfields in all parts of the country have been closed. We are bound to see the closing of plants, airfields and schools after we reach a certain stage in our war production- and -training, and all that has been explained. I do not think the people of Canada expect the minister or this government to carry on any plant in which men cannot be usefully employed-, particularly if they can be employed somewhere else to help in our war effort. I do not wish to be unreasonable. I want everything it is possible t-o get for Nova Scotia, but I do not think the people of that province are going to ask me or -any other hon. -member -from the mari-times' to make unreasonable requests. They do expect us to -make every effort to find out why a plant is being closed and, if possible, to have that plant continued in operation, even if only in the capacity of a stand-by plant. However, I ask the minister to bear in -mind that at Eastern Passage he has what is considered a well-equipped plant, as well as a permanent airfield which no doubt will continue in operation following the war. I suggest to him that this plant might be utilized in connection- with the T.C.A. or in so-me other worth-while peace-time effort.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I should like to point out to my hon. friend, and to all hon. -members, -that the Clark Ruse plant is not closed-. This plant was built to repair damaged aeroplanes. Obviously the work of such a plant must be in proportion to the number of damaged aircraft. At one time the plant was very busy ; in fact the capacity -has had to be enlarged from time to time. Owing to a change in operational requirements, however, recently the number of crashed aircraft has been considerably less. As a result, the -personnel of the plant has been- cut down to -the actual work requirements. I understand the reduction- in Halifax amounts to some 500 men, which leaves about 250 or 300 still employed. I understand there -has been a small reduction at Moncton as well; just how large -that has
IMr. Isnor.]
been, I do not know, but I do -not think it is particularly important. My hon-. -friend- claims that the employees in- these plants are absolutely astonished that there should be any reduction. I think they are much more intelligent than he would lead- us to believe. Surely people whose livelihood depends upon crashed aeroplanes -must know that others are not going to crash- aeroplanes in that locality at the rate they have been crashed, forever.


Clarence Gillis: Were those plants not assembly plants?


Clarence Decatur Howe: They were for a time, yes.


Clarence Gillis: Yes, they were.


Clarence Decatur Howe: In the early stages there were some planes being brought in from the old country and assembled there. But the main purpose of locating the plant there was to repair certain types of aircraft. That is the only purpose of the plant at this time. The equipment is laid out for certain types of aircraft. The plant carries stocks of spares for certain types of aircraft, and the job is to repair those aircraft. A very considerable part of the personnel was brought there from upper Canada for the reason that men with some training were required. Surely those who went from upper Canada to Halifax to repair damaged aircraft did- not go there under the impression that they were going to make a profession of repairing damaged aircraft in that area. They went there to do a war job, and intended to come back to where they came from when the repairs to crashed aeroplanes were finished. Those are not plants suitable for any other work; in fact repair capacity may be needed again. Damage to aircraft may increase; we may have in that area operational requirements which will again make those -plants necessary for the purpose for which they were built. [DOT]
I assume that the Halifax plant, being adjacent to the Dartmouth airport, will probably always be used as an overhaul plant for aeroplanes. Obviously, under peace-time conditions the scale of operations will not be particularly high. I find it extraordinary that an obviously temporary war-time facility should, in the mind of anyone, be converted into a permanent industry, when no such industry of that size could possibly exist in peace time.
The hon. member mentioned the plant of Ferguson Brothers at Pictou. The situation there was that the plant was equipped for ship repairs, a badly needed facility along that coast. By a chain of circumstances, none of which was intended by the department, two tugs were moved- into that plant for construction. The department thought they were to be

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constructed1 in another location, but suddenly found that they turned up in the Ferguson yard. Those tugs, had they been built there, would have occupied badly needed facilities which had been created for a special purpose, a purpose having the highest priority. Might I say that the repair of ships has a far higher priority than the building of ships, because it is much more important to keep an existing ship at sea than to build a ship which could be put to sea only after a matter of months.
When it was found that the repair facilities were clogged up with a construction job, we moved the construction job out. Ferguson Brothers were very much disturbed about the situation at the time. But I shall be very glad to lay on the table a letter from Ferguson Brothers, written a year later, in which they said that they had been fully occupied with the repair work, since the tugs were moved out, and that they wished to say that I was right; that they were quite wrong, and that we were fully warranted in taking the tugs out to make way for repair, work.


Mr. McIVOR:: I have just a word to say. It is only human nature of a certain type that when an air centre or a training centre is shut down there is diappointment. If a war industry is closed, we are disappointed. But there is another type of human nature that is not disappointed. When our shell plant at Fort William was shut down, perhaps I was a little disappointed. But to-day that plant is sold, so that instead of making shells it is going to make foodstuffs. And where is the city in Canada that would not prefer to see the manufacture of foodstuffs rather than that of shells-because there are now enough shells.
Then No. 2 training centre which we had at the head of the lakes was one of the best in Canada, and I say that because of the number of times they took the pennant. Some of the folks there thought it should be about the last closed up, because of its efficiency. But when I spoke to the Minister of National Defence for Air he asked me, "Do you know the reason why it was closed down?" I said I thought I did, but asked, "What is it?" "Because there were not enough casualties in the air." I say to the Minister of Munitions and Supply, notwithstanding any criticism the hon. member for Davenport may level at me, that we thank God that the airmen have been spared so that our training centres can be shut down. It is only a certain type of individual who will find fault with that sort of thing. I am glad that our schools are being closed, because we do not need any more aircrew, and we are going to win the war with
practically what we have now. Before we criticize the men in our war cabinet, we should know more than present expressions would seem to show.


Mr. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: I wish to say a few words with regard to a very serious condition in the west. I refer to the coal situation. I was pleased to hear the minister say to-night that he was causing to be set up a royal commission which would investigate the whole coal problem from the eastern to the western coast. I may say it was my understanding this afternoon that the royal commission was only going to investigate the coal condition in the west. I am glad, however, that the minister has now corrected that statement. Because of the statement which I understood the minister to make this afternoon, but which he has just now corrected, it was my intention not to discuss the coal question until we were to go into supply, and then to move an amendment which would more or less solidify the whole subject, and bring the matter to a climax.
It is necessary that the coal situation not only in western Canada but in eastern Canada as well should be dealt with, so that there might be some satisfactory conclusion. Chaos will be the result if that is not done. This amendment I intended to move when the house was going into supply:
That all the words after the word "that" to the end of the question be struck^ out and the following substituted therefor: this house consider the advisability of formulating a national fuel policy for Canada which will:
(a)	Eliminate discrimination in favour of coal imports through subsidies.
(b)	Ensure markets for Canadian coal producers.
(c)	Provide steady employment for Canadian miners and
(d)	Make provision for transportation facilities, either by way of freight rate revisions or through the renewal of subsidies which will enable Canadian miners to compete on an equitable basis of equality in Canadian markets.
I had prepared that amendment because of the very serious situation in the west. In the last few days I have been receiving telegrams and air mail letters in regard to the matter, until now I have quite a pile of them. The situation is becoming serious. I think there is a mistaken idea in the minds of many with regard to the western fuel situation. This has been created largely by remarks made, perhaps unintentionally, in this House of Commons. I believe it was the Minister of Munitions and Supply who criticized some hon. members the other day for making statements which were not well considered. I think his rebuke was well grounded, but I should like to apply his remarks to certain hon. members
/

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on this side of the house. I wish to quote what the Minister of Labour had to say in regard to Alberta coal. I think he made some remarks which were very ill advised. I quote from page 1057 of Hansard, where the minister is reported as follows:
My hon. friends will understand why much of that coal particularly Alberta coal, cannot be piled. It deteriorates, falls to pieces. It is not like Nova Scotia coal.
Mr. MacNicol: It disintegrates.
Mr. Johnston (Bow Kiver): It is good coal.
The minister stated that Alberta coal is not like Nova Scotia coal, that it will not stock-pile. For a long time we in western Canada have been endeavouring to create a market for Alberta coal in Ontario and Quebec. A goodly number of dollars have been spent by the provincial government upon advertising, and a trade commission was set up in this province which spends part of its time in Ottawa and the other part in Toronto in an endeavour to build up a market for Alberta coal. This in turn creates a market for other Canadian products and provides labour for Canadian people. These are things that should be brought about.
Now the Minister of Labour comes along and knocks the props out from under that by saying that this coal will not stock-pile, that it is not like Nova Scotia coal. I have nothing to say against Nova Scotia coal, and there are other hon. members, particularly the hon. member for Cape Breton South, who can deal with that particular commodity. But Nova Scotia coal is bituminous coal; that is the only type of coal produced in Nova Scotia. We produce bituminous coal in Alberta along with other types. I have gone to some pains to investigate the heat units of bituminous coal from western Canada and of bituminous coal from eastern Canada and I find that there is practically no difference. The minister was entirely wrong when he said what he did. He either did not know the coal situation or was deliberately making a misstatement of fact, something which should not be permitted. He says that it falls to pieces, that it deteriorates. Bituminous coal from western Canada will not deteriorate and it will .stock-pile just as well as Nova Scotia coal. We should remember this when discussing this matter. Statements such as the minister made are misleading to the public. I heard coal dealers, some of them members of this house, from Ontario say that such statements are not correct.
The other kind of coal that we produce in Alberta is domestic coal, and this is found in a number of types. We get domestic coal from Drumheller, from Lethbridge, from the Saunders area and from the Coalspur area. Each of these domestic coals is an excellent

coal. If the minister was referring to that type of coal when he said that it would not stock-pile, he was entirely wrong. We in the west have had some experience in using this coal and in fact it has been shipped to Ottawa and even a few miles out from this city. A goodly number of tons have been sent down to Toronto in an endeavour to build up a wider market for our coal. Then the minister comes along and makes his statement, and the hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol) agrees with him by saying, "It disintegrates".


Mr. MacNICOL:: I infer from what the hon. member is saying that he charges me with criticizing Alberta coal. There is no hon. member of this House of Commons, including the hon. member, who has done more to advocate the use of Alberta coal than I have. I was partly responsible for bringing down the first 25,000 tons of Alberta coal to Toronto and other points in Ontario. The hon. member must not misquote me. When I said it disintegrates, I mean that it does disintegrate if it is not covered. I have used several carloads of this coal.


Charles Edward Johnston: I was just going to say that on many occasions the hon. member for Davenport had commendably advocated the use of Alberta coal and the development of Alberta industries. We thank him for that; nevertheless when the minister said that it deteriorates, falls to pieces and wrill not stock-pile, the hon. member said, "It disintegrates." I do not like to make any uncomplimentary remarks about the hon. member, but I do want to stress that if this coal is kept covered, and most domestic coal is kept covered, it will keep just as well as any other type of coal.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Exactly. It does not disintegrate when under cover.


Charles Edward Johnston: We in western Canada buy our coal in the fall, especially since the government has advocated getting in an early supply. Two years ago I put Drumheller coal into my basement in the early fall and in the spring it was just as good as when it was put in. When this coal is brought down to eastern Canada and sold to householders and kept under cover it will keep just as well as any domestic coal produced anywhere in Canada. We should not misrepresent the facts and say that this coal will not stock-pile, that it disintegrates, leaving the impression it deteriorates rapidly and soon becomes of no value. We are trying to build up a market for this coal. The bituminous coal to which I referred a moment ago is a different type entirely. This coal is

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used for industrial purposes and by locomotives. I wish to refer again to what the minister is reported as having said on page 1057 of Hansard.


Clarence Decatur Howe: What minister is my hon. friend talking about?


Charles Edward Johnston: I am talking about the Minister of Labour at this moment.


Clarence Decatur Howe: What has this to do with the estimates of the Department of Munitions and Supply? There are civil estimates which are not now under discussion covering the subsidies on coal. My hon. friend is just building up strawmen and knocking them down. No one has said that Alberta coal will not stand handling or cannot be stored. My hon. friend and everyone else in this house knows that practically every variety of coal is mined in Alberta. There is a high grade domestic coal; there is a bituminous coal and there is a low grade lignite. If he is talking about the lignite coal, then I think he will admit that it will not store. If he is talking about bituminous coal, I think it can be said that it will store. If he is talking about high grade domestic coal, of course it will store.


Charles Edward Johnston: Of course it will.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Why not sit down and let us get on with the estimates?


Charles Edward Johnston: Let me tell the minister that I shall not sit down until he gets a few facts. If he had been listening to what was being said he would know I was referring to the Minister of Labour.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Whose estimates will come up later.


Charles Edward Johnston: The Minister of Labour made remarks about Alberta coal. It was a member of your government, not I, who was saying that it would not stock-pile. If the minister would listen to what is being said instead of being so anxious to rise and "crab" about somebody else, he would hear what is going on.


Humphrey Mitchell: Let me say this, on a point of order. Let the hon. member discuss this when it comes up on my estimates. I shall still be here, I hope, and any statement my hon. friend has to make I shall do my best to answer. He does not need to fear that the Minister of Labour is going to run away. I thought he was talking about some minister of the gospel.


Charles Edward Johnston: Don't ever worry. I was talking about you then. On the question of whether this matter should be discussed under this item, in just about a minute I am going to refer to the Minister of Munitions and Supply. When he was giving his statement the other day he occupied about a page under this very item, and he was talking about coal, so that it definitely does come in this place. But this question was raised by myself a year ago in this chamber, as far as western coal is concerned. I was about to state what the Minister of Labour said with regard to the policy of handling it. As reported in Hansard of this year, at page 1057, he had this to say:
I have a vivid recollection of the hon. member for Bow River rising in his place last session and saying that we had no organization to meet a possible shortage of fuel in the west this winter. In the light of what has taken place, I think it can be said that we were not only prepared but overprepared, having regard to weather conditions, to meet the fuel situation in western and eastern Canada this year.


Humphrey Mitchell: What is wrong with that?


Charles Edward Johnston: I am just going to tell the minister what is wrong with it. As far as this winter was concerned the minister is perfectly right. He was overprepared; I will agree with him there.


Humphrey Mitchell: I wonder what my hon. friend would have said if we had not been prepared.


Charles Edward Johnston: I am coming -to that, too. This winter you were overprepared, so that shows a definite lack of policy.


Mr. CLEAVER:: Or a mild winter.


Charles Edward Johnston: A year ago you were vastly underprepared. That, too, showed a definite lack of policy. Very likely next year you will be underprepared again. So that it is necessary that a national fuel policy should be gone into carefully and established, and even at this late date it was good news to hear the Minister of Munitions and Supply-the minister, mind you, who says that this does not come under his department-make the statement a few minutes ago that a royal commission is to be set up to investigate this coal situation. It is time it was done, and the Minister of Munitions and Supply, whether it comes under his department or not, is apparently at least moving in the right direction.
Let us see what the Minister of Munitions and Supply, who is so much concerned about the matter being discussed in the wrong

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place, had to say about this. The other day, when speaking on his estimates, he said, as
reported in Hansard, at page 1702:
The coal which is mined to-day, and in the next few months, will be marketed for next winter's supply.
That is an appropriate statement. The coal which is mined to-day will be next winter's ' supply. If the minister or whoever is responsible for coal production will follow out his policy on that basis, next year we shall not be in the same position as we were in a year ago and as we are in to-day.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Not if there is an election you won't.


Charles Edward Johnston: Because surely now is the time, especially when so' many miners all over the country are being laid off, to create a national fuel policy for Canada which will put these men in employment. There is no use in saying, as the Minister of Labour said the other day in regard to the fuel policy, that in a little while some of these soldier miners who are laid off will be taken back to the forces and others will be enlisting in the army.


Humphrey Mitchell: I never said that.


Charles Edward Johnston: Yes, the minister did; and that in a little while those miners who came off the farms would be going back to the farms and that that would relieve the unemployment situation. For quite a period men have been walking the streets unemployed. At the time I spoke on this question there were over 700 miners in Drum-heller who had applied for unemployment insurance; a thousand of them did not have any work, and conditions were getting worse. Since then, 500 miners have been laid off in Edmonton. The situation is becoming critical. The Minister of Munitions and Supply, again speaking about coal, had this to say on March 21, as reported in Hansard, at page 1701
By 1943, our consumption had increased to 46 million tons, of which over 28 million tons have been imported.
That amount of coal was imported last year from the United States or Great Britain. He continued:
These figures will give the house some idea of our coal problem. Despite some improvement in the over-all production picture, there is no doubt that we shall have a serious coal problem on our hands for the duration of the war.
Is the time not opportune for the minister's announcement to-day that a royal commission is to be set up? The matter was so serious 'hat I considered I would be negligent in my duty if I did not bring up this question when Mr. Speaker was going to leave the chair for

the house to go into supply, but, the Minister of Munitions and Supply having made the statement that a royal commission is to be set up, I thought that now would be the proper time to discuss the question.
Last year there was an increase over 1942 of 3,243,000 tons of coal which came in from the United States. A subsidy was paid on all that imported coal. Most of it was received by Ontario and Quebec, a market which either Nova Scotia or the western provinces should have for their own. Yet, instead, we are subsidizing all that imported coal, making it still more difficult for our own Canadian mines to keep running, to retain these men in employment, and to hold business within our own country. Some of this coal which was imported and brought to the head of the lakes was taken as far west, on the Canadian Pacific railway, as Saskatchewan, and on the Canadian National Railways, clear into Alberta. Nobody can tell me that that indicates even the semblance of a fuel policy, when in Alberta we have fourteen per cent of the total coal deposits of Canada. Meanwhile mines all over this dominion are being shut down and men are unemployed. I have here a telegram from the board of trade at Drum-heller; I have received also airmail letters from various mines, at Lethbridge, Edmonton and elsewhere. These1 people are greatly concerned over this question. Most of this lack of foresight and judgment, and most of the great unemployment problem that we have been facing could have been and should have been settled long ago if this government had got busy and created a national fuel policy. .
Now a royal commission is going to be set up and I wish to commend the minister. The time is long overdue for it, and if a thorough investigation is made on a national scale I believe that this coal problem can be efficiently and judiciously handled. There is no reason why we cannot keep our miners busy, or begin to prepare now under a proper plan to have these miners put back on the job so as to get coal out now for next winter, and I hope that the government will see to it that every assistance is given the commission, and that after the commission has reported the government will get busy knd set up an efficient national fuel policy for Canada.


Humphrey Mitchell: I wish to correct a
couple of statements that have been made. It was suggested by the member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Gillis) that we had a deliberate policy to force men into the army through these lay-offs that have taken place.


Clarence Gillis: I did not say you had a deliberate policy to force them.

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Humphrey Mitchell: I am glad my hon.
friend admits that. I am satisfied there. I believe I stated the facts clearly this afternoon. The hon. member for Cape Breton South will agree with me, I think, that we did move in the right direction in connection with these lay-offs and the selective service replacements which were undertaken in cooperation with the trades union. This is probably the first time in the history of the country when we have been able to move through the selective service for the purpose of making these changes in such replacements, and that is an indication that we have a machine capable of doing the work. I am proud of it, notwithstanding any opinions to the contrary. We can move, as we have done in many places, people from different jobs to other areas where changes are inevitable.
The grand strategy of the war, as the Minister of Munitions and Supply points out, makes it inevitable that industries will be closed down and others started, and the fact that we have a machine that can move in, as in the case of Dartmouth, and undertake this transfer of workers from one point to another, is an indication that we are a long way ahead of the stage we had reached in the last war.
Let me say to the committee that I am responsible for the call-up of men for military service; and let me say further, very frankly, that with the increase in tempo in the war in Europe there will be greater and greater call-ups of men in the age groups liable for military service. Let there be no mistake about that.
When we see the United States at this very moment considering the cancellation of postponements from eighteen to twenty-six years, whether men are engaged in agriculture or in industry, and when we look at the figures with regard to mobilized -man-power in- Great Britain, it makes our eyes stand out. We have had a staff of industrial engineers and men from the labour department going through the whole industrial structure of the country in the last twelve months with a view to combing out industries in order to meet the requirements of the Department of National Defence.
There may have been in this plant, where we took these 111 -men, such a situation as would have necessitated its shut-down in the not distant future. According to our latest figures, however, there are ample opportunities for employment in the maritime provinces in A, B, C, and D priorities. The latest figures we have for the maritime provinces for total man-power requirements are 12,956; in A and B priorities 9,953 men are required and 1,480 women, making a total of 11,433.
So that my hon. friend will have some indication that, notwithstanding the fact that there are these shifts in the industrial structure, which are inevitable in a time of war, there is ample employment opportunity even in the maritime provinces to take up any slack we may be faced with there. Sometimes there is a temporary closing down and sometimes, necessarily, it is permanent. The same is true of all industries whether in that part of the dominion or in any other section.


Mr. SOPER:: I think I had better put the hon. member for Bow River (Mr. Johnston) straight with regard to the storing of Alberta coal. The minister was quite right when he said that Alberta coal would not store when shipped -here. If you put that coal in a damp cellar it will store for a while, but when it is placed in a dry bin it will not store. I was afraid the hon. member for Bow River might be contemplating using some of the money he makes as a member of parliament for the storing of coal under unfavourable conditions.


Mr. BLACKMORE:: Will the hon. member tell us what he means by "store"? Does he mean storing for two years, or for two months, or for how long?


Bert H. Soper: Shipping the coal right here
at this time of the year and putting it in a dry basement. If you do that it will not stand.


John Horne Blackmore: For how long?


Bert H. Soper: It will not stand until next
winter. If, however, you put it in a basement where there is a ground floor and a certain amount of dampness, it will store.


John Horne Blackmore: It will store for six
months?


Bert H. Soper: If you put it into dry bins at this time of year, by next fall, when you start to draw it out, you will have from five to ten tons of slack per car.


Charles Edward Johnston: That is
different from what the minister said a moment ago.


An hon. MEMBER:: Who is right, you or the minister?


Bert H. Soper: I think I ought to know something about it because it cost me money.


John Horne Blackmore: The hon. member
should tell us what kind of Alberta coal he is talking about. Alberta -has several kinds.


Bert H. Soper: Drumheller coal. Alberta
coal, which is one of your best.


Charles Edward Johnston: That is the coal I use and I have no difficulty with it.
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Howard Charles Green: We seem to have slipped away from the estimates of munitions and supply into the Department of Labour. There are one or two points arising out of the estimates of munitions and supply which I think should be cleared up by the minister. The first of these points is this: What preparations are being made by his department for the war in the Pacific? Earlier this month the British secretary for war, Sir Jdmes Grigg, speaking in the British House of Commons, used these words:
In one field the ministry (of supply) can expect from us a whole range of new demands -those for specialized weapons and equipment which will be needed when wre transfer our main weight to the war against Japan.
Last fall Admiral Sir Percy Noble, head of the British admiralty delegation at Washington, said there would be a vast expansion of naval base and repair facilities on the British Columbia coast in preparation for the all-out drive against Japan. The policy of the government quite clearly is that once Germany has been disposed of, Canada will throw her whole weight against Japan and that, of course, will require careful preparation by the Department of Munitions and Supply so that the various facilities will be ready when the time comes.
It would be of interest to the committee to hear from the minister just what steps have been taken and what plans he has in mind. I think the bases on the Pacific coast will be main operational bases in the north Pacific when Canada strikes against the Japanese. Probably the shortest route from Great Britain to the Pacific area will be across Canada and through the ports on the Pacific coast. Also there will be great need for ship repair facilities and probably there should be stock piles of equipment built up there even now. Material will be required not only for Canada but also for Australia, New Zealand and the United Kingdom.
It would also seem reasonable that there should be some increased production of war material on that coast, that it would be cheaper and more efficient to have some of the goods manufactured there; more gun barrels, for example, and perhaps different types of guns. When the time comes for Canada to throw her whole weight into the war with Japan it would seem a reasonable thing to do to make more of this equipment on the Pacific coast.
There will also be a great increase in the amount of foodstuffs that will have to be handled through Pacific ports, and in the volume of oil. There was some discussion this afternoon about the Canol project; as the

minister said, that project was undertaken for the express purpose of supplying oil on the Pacific coast. It may be, too, that there will be need for greatly increased warehousing space and for more camps on that coast.
Therefore in many ways preparation should be made, and I would ask the minister to explain just what steps have been taken by his department.
Another question with which I should like the minister to deal is the present policy of the government with regard to shipping. I thought that policy was fairly well defined last year when the minister said on May 12, dealing with Canada's shipping policy:
We expect that the Canadian merchant marine will be a substantial source of employment in the post-war years and that it will be of real benefit to Canadian post-war commerce. That is the policy.
Again last year, the minister made a lengthy speech in Toronto on December 13, and by the way I thought it was a very constructive speech. He had nine suggested objectives for the Canadian people, and objective No. 4 was this:
Canadians should provide a merchant marine worthy of the dominion's export position.
The Minister of Transport (Mr. Michaud), nods his head. Tonight he seems to agree with that policy. I hope he has had a change of heart, because on December 24 of last year, after his colleague had given that splendid objective to the Canadian people the Minister of Transport-and by the way, he is the man who would have to administer the shipping policy for Canada-


Gordon Graydon: He will not be there then.


Howard Charles Green: If the government were there. He used these words, and they are serious for those of us who are interested in shipping. They are serious because they are really defeatist. So that I hope the Minister of Transport has changed his mind and that when he used these words he was not stating the policy of the government. He said this:
I see no future in Canada going into the shipping business on a big scale after the war. Some of the ships might well be used to develop-trade between Canada and the West Indies and. South America.
That is the smaller ships, I presume. He went on:
But to enter competition for trade across the Atlantic and Pacific would be a big undertaking.
The Minister of Transport is nodding his head again. I do not know now whether he is with me or against me. I thought he was with me a few minutes ago. At all events, I say

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that is a defeatist policy for Canada, and I suggest to the Minister of Munitions and Supply that he make an announcement tonight, or if he does not wish to do it to-night, then to-morrow, as to what Canada's shipping policy is to be.
When he was speaking of his department the other day he said that Canada's merchant navy at the end of February, 1944, comprised fifty-four 10,000-ton ships, of which ten were tankers, and thirteen 4,700-ton ships, making a total of sixty-seven, all built by ourselves in our, own yards and by our own workmen. Then he said that by the end of August of this year we would have thirty additional 10,000-ton ships, of which three would be tankers. That would give us at the end of August ninety-seven ships, less whatever number happened to be sunk in the meantime. In addition, we have an unknown number of ships which have been lent or turned over to the British government, but which are to be returned after the war. I would ask the minister, when he replies, to tell us how many ships Canada has on loan to the British.
We have built up a great corps of merchant seamen. Canada at War, No. 33, February, 1944, showed that there were then certified in the central registry at Ottawa 44,498 Canadian merchant seamen. So that we have approximately 45,000 merchant seamen, and we have great facilities for training merchant seamen- men for the engine rooms, men for the decks-and also facilities, I think, for training officers. We have a plan for operating these ships under a crown company known as Park Steamships Limited, which turns the ships over to the different shipping firms under agreements which provide for the payment of a fee for operating them.
So that Canada is now in a position to have after the war a fine merchant navy; a merchant navy, as the minister said in his speech at Toronto in December, that is worthy of our export position. I would ask him to-night to tell the committee the government policy with regard to the merchant navy and, if he can, to tell us what the plan is for operating that merchant navy, and for allotting the ships between the two coasts. To date the allotment has been fair I think, about fifty-fifty, half to the east coast and half to the Pacific.
Perhaps the minister would also tell us at the same time whether Canada has decided to build faster merchant ships. Some of us raised that point last year and suggested that it might be wise for Canada to have some faster ships. So far, we have been building ships with a speed of ten or eleven knots, while the British and Americans are building ships
which go about fifteen knots. The minister said on June 11 of last year, dealing with this point:
From the Canadian standpoint the building of faster ships is a post-war rather than a present-day war problem, for which the necessary advice is now being secured from the best sources.
There seems to be a great deal of uncertainty as to whether this is the wise course. The war expenditures committee reported on this question of the type of ships that should be built. It said, and this appears in Votes and Proceedings of January 26, 1944;
We suggest, however, that efforts should be made to ascertain if construction of such a ship-
That is a faster ship:
-for post-war use is practicable in Canada with a view to keeping as many yards as possible occupied to meet expected commercial requirements.
There is a great deal of doubt in the United States as to the value of the slow ships in post-war trade. I have here a newspaper report with regard to these 10,000-ton ships in the United States. They are called Liberty ships, which is the American equivalent of the slow ship we are building. It says:
The remainder will be Liberty type ships, which experts says are not suitable for post-war carrying trade.
So that there does seem to be some doubt whether they will be of much use after the war. In view of the fact that Canada exports largely primary products in bulk, I think many of these slow ships could be used by us. I suggest, however, that some attempt should be made to build the faster ships in Canada.
I would ask the minister to tell us something with regard to the two questions I have raised: first of all, as to the preparations that are being made for Canada to take part in the war in the Pacific; and, second, with regard to Canada's shipping policy as it stands at the present time.


Clarence Decatur Howe: In reply to the first question I would remind my hon. friend that the Department of Munitions and Supply does not set the requirements; they are set out by the chiefs of staff. However, the department is doing certain specialized work in connection with the war in the Pacific, in the nature of maintenance ships and victualling ships, definitely for the Pacific; certain landing craft, definitely for the Pacific, and certain types of weapons definitely for the Pacific war. In the matter of overhaul facilities, these are being strengthened gradually and will be kept ahead of requirements, as far as repair work
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on the Pacific is concerned. We are in excellent position, I think, to handle repair work there; we have good drydock capacity and good berthing space for repairs. Just as we have looked after the requirements for the war in the Atlantic, I think we shall be able to look after the requirements of the army, the navy and the air force for the war in the Pacific.


Howard Charles Green: Before the minister leaves that point, will there be any extension of the production of war equipment on the coast? Is that in mind?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No; I would not think so. If we had a factory in Montreal or Toronto producing materials for the Pacific, I am sure my hon. friend would not suggest that we abandon that factory and start a new one on the west coast. I doubt if the level of production on the Pacific coast will increase greatly on account of the war in the Pacific. We have an excellent production machine in full gear which will probably supply the equipment. In ship repairs and perhaps shipbuilding there may be a step-up on that account; and there may be greater activity in the movement of troops.


Howard Charles Green: What about storage room, warehouse room?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We are not in bad shape; we are always building a bit more warehouse space there, and I suppose that will continue. As far as the merchant fleet is concerned, as my hon. friend says the Canadian fleet at the moment includes sixty-nine new ships, and thirty more will be added during the current year. The hon. gentleman asked for the number that have been delivered to Britain. That number stands at eighty-eight at the moment, and additional ships will be built for operation by the United Kingdom during the coming year.
Mr. GREEN; Those are all returnable to Canada after the war, are they?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. In addition, we have sold ninety ships to the maritime commission for cash. Of course those have passed out of our possession.


Howard Charles Green: That is to the United States?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. In the early days of the war we sold two ships to Britain for cash, and we have also lent one ship to Australia. The policy of the government is, I think, the same as the policy being followed in the United States and the United Kingdom. The routes for the ships and the trades to be served are determined by a shipping board.

The Canadian shipping board determines the services which these boats shall perform. Actually the boats are managed by established operating companies, for a fee. All the earnings of the boats are returnable to the government through Park Steamship company Those earnings are substantial; I notice that Park Steamship company already has turned over to the receiver general some 810,000,000 of earnings from those ships. We expect that at the end of the war, as far as the Canadian fleet is concerned, the cost of the boats will be written down considerably. Possibiy some will be fully paid for, which will put the fleet in a strong position for the post-war years.
There is a tendency, and I think an undue tendency, to belittle the type of tonnage that makes up the Canadian merchant marine. The ships that we have built have been progressively improved since we started, and are all first-class tramp tonnage, better than any tramp tonnage that existed before the war. I think every practical shipping man will agree that they are the best design for boats of their class that anyone knows of at this time. They are the type of boat that has always carried eighty-five per cent of Canada's export trade. There is a need, based on pre-war business, for about 150 of these ships, to move exports from the west coast to their markets, and we hope that post-war levels will require an even larger number of these ships. I am happy to say that we shall be able to supply ships of Canadian ownership for these trades.


Howard Charles Green: Did the minister say 150 ships from the west coast alone?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. Similarly, based on prewar movements, seventy-five ships will be required for export movement from the east coast, for bulk commodities. I think at the end of the war our fleet will be sufficient to take care of both requirements. The cargo that goes into boats of this class is of the type that is handled as freight on our railroads. Express shipments ordinarily would go in faster tonnage. As far as this country is concerned, tramp tonnage in the past has not required subsidy, whereas every boat of the express type has required an operating subsidy from the Canadian government. Further, it is a fact that the high speed boats and express service boats are built for special trades and special operations. They are not boats that can be built under conditions of mass production with any probability that they would suit the requirements of the trade for which they were designed. Therefore it seems to us and to our expert advisers that it is not wise at this time to attempt to go

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into the passenger steamship building or the fast freighter building in a big way. We hope the efficiency of our yards will be such that at the end of the war we shall have requests from operators of liner services to build their ships in Canada.


Howard Charles Green: That is passenger boats, as well as fast freighters?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We will welcome that business and do all we can to encourage it. But as far as the present building programme is concerned, we are building a ship that we know Canada will need, ships that will stand on their merits, ships that will be the backbone of any post-war merchant fleet that Canada will require. Does that cover the point?


Howard Charles Green: There is great concern as to whether or not the shipbuilding industry will be able to survive after the war. As the minister knows, after the last war the shipbuilding industry collapsed, and in the back of everyone's mind there is the feeling that the same thing may happen after this war. I am delighted indeed to hear the minister say tonight that the plan is to increase our merchant fleet, and that apparently it is the intention of the government to maintain a Canadian merchant navy. But can he give any assurance to the Canadian people that the Canadian government is determined to maintain the * shipbuilding industry after the war? I realize that it could not be on anything like the scale of to-day, but I do hope some definite word can go out to the country that the government intends to see to it that our shipbuilding industry is maintained. Perhaps it would be necessary to subsidize the building of ships; in the United States they have long since decided that this was a wise policy. It might be possible to keep the industry up by government orders. The minister knows, just as I do, and other members of the committee, that it will be a difficult problem to keep the shipbuilding industry going steadily after the war. Yet it does seem to' be one of those industries of which Canada has the greatest need. I think it should definitely be a government policy that we are determined to have a shipbuilding industry, even if in the beginning it cost money. Can the minister go so far as to say that it is the intention of the government to foster shipbuilding in Canada in the post-war years, or, in other words, that steps will be taken to see to it that the industry does not shrivel up, once the war is over.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have always understood my hon. friend to be a great exponent of free enterprise. I can point out to him that we have established in Canada a first-class shipbuilding industry, with extensive facilities that will be written off during the war period. Ours will be low-cost yards, so far as overhead goes. Ours will be efficient yards. Our shipbuilding costs are very satisfactory, and they have been coming down steadily.


Howard Charles Green: What are they now? What is the cost of one of these ships?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I delivered an oration on that subject this afternoon, stating that I do not give costs. I am sorry my hon. friend was absent.


Howard Charles Green: Oh, I was here.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It did not register, then.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. H. R. MacMillan, formerly head of Wartime Merchant Shipping, gave certain figures in Vancouver on January 13. He said that these ships were turned out at from 81,300,000 to $1,500,000 each, as compared with $900,000 in British yards and $2,000,000 in the United States. And, considering everything, he regarded this an excellent showing for Canada.
Mr. HOWE That is not far off. The Canadian position is a little better than that now since each ship costs a little less than the preceding one. Yards that were out of line in the matter of cost are coming into line. We have a very good showing from our shipyards at the present time. Naturally, for the reasons I gave this afternoon, the larger yards build ships more cheaply than do the smaller ones, and the older yards usually do better than the new ones. However, the difference is not great.


Howard Charles Green: Some of them are very efficient.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes; there are some very
efficient yards in Canada. Our shipbuilders will be in an excellent position to compete. We have taken steps to improve the competitive position. We have brought into Canada a very strong designing firm, so that if anyone comes to Canada wanting a ship for any particular service, and can give us the requirements, the ship can be designed here in an efficient manner.


Howard Charles Green: Does that include passenger
ships?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. And we have taken such steps as we can at this stage to place our shipyards in a strong position, so that they may compete. I sincerely hope and believe that a policy of subsidies will not be necessary. I think an aggressive policy of salesmanship will keep our yards busy. I know that at this
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time, if the yards were not occupied in war work they would be able to take on a good deal of private work. They have not been able to take such work, on account of the requirements of war. My hon. friend would not ask me to go farther than that, but I hope if he comes into office he will not immediately jump into the business of subsidies.


Howard Charles Green: I agree with the minister;
it would be far better if subsidies were not necessary. But I said it might come to that stage, rather than let the industry die out.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That, I understand, is a
philosophy of despair. I prefer to be hopeful.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Do the minister's
remarks apply to great lakes points, as well?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Great lakes yards are busy at the present time, and are likely to be busy for some considerable time. The type of boat which can be built on the lakes is restricted, either to tonnage for the great lakes, or to tonnage which can pass through the St. Lawrence canals. There is every indication that there will be business for great lakes yards for some considerable time.


Mr. NICHOLSON:: I should like to ask
the minister about another matter. Two years ago he discussed at some length the Pogue carburettor. Might I point out to him that another carburettor has been patented by the editor of one of the newspapers in my constituency. I know this public-spirited citizen very well, and I understand he has offered the Department of Munitions and Supply the opportunity to use his discovery. I find that the rural municipality has passed a resolution urging that this gasoline saver, which has been tested and is reported to have done 130 miles to a gallon, should be investigated. In view of the fact that this department is spending over $8,000,000 a day of the people's money, the very small amount of money involved in testing this carburettor would be insignificant.
I believe that some day some person will discover a carburettor which is an improvement on any at present on the market, and there is no reason why the editor of a newspaper in a small country town, a man with a creative mind, and one who has been willing to spend a considerable sum of money, many hours of time and to use a large amount of material, should not discover something of importance. Would the minister make a statement as to the policy of his department? Is it interested in spending small sums of money in testing inventions of this kind?
I understand that Mr. Augustus, who is the editor, and his partner Mr. Melnyk, have offered this invention as a service to the

country. They have suggested that if it is of any use the government should pay them how it likes, when it likes and if it likes. Nothing would appear to be fairer, and I should imagine it would be sound policy for the minister's department to test this invention, and satisfy the people in that community as to whether it has or has not any merit.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The policy of the government toward inventions is liberal and advanced. We have a board known as the dominion inventions board, composed of the best scientists in Canada. All my hon. friend needs do is to submit his carburettor to that board, and if the board reports that the invention has promise, he will find large sums of money available for its development. If, on the other hand, the board reports unfavourably, he can do what he likes with his invention, but he can get no help from any department of government in connection with it.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: That is fair enough; but my information is that the inventor has offered it to the department, and that nothing has happened.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is quite useless for your friends to offer it to my department; they must offer it to the inventions board. If the board decides that the invention has merit, , my, department will then be very much interested in it. But until then we have no interest whatsoever in the invention.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I think the minister's department might show the courtesy of writing the inventor, suggesting what action should be taken, or that it should turn the letter over. My complaint is that he did not receive any information from the department.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Undoubtedly the letter has automatically been handed to the inventions board. All letters of that kind are handled in that way.


Charles Edward Johnston: I should like to say a word about carburettors. A couple of years ago I spoke on several occasions respecting the Pogue carburettor. But, so far as I know, nothing has come of it- although I think the government did spend some money in experiments. May I suggest that this government is not giving enough encouragement to people who have invented carburettors, to see whether or not there is any merit in those inventions.
I know the minister may be irritated at times because a great number of persons come in to him with the information that they have inventions respecting new types of carburettors which will do this or do that. The tendency is to brush them aside, and to put

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the onus on them to prove the value of their invention. In my opinion that is not the proper procedure.
Let me tell the committee about an experience I had in this city. Almost a year ago a man who lives here in Ottawa came into my office in this building with an attachment to put on a carburettor. He told, me that he was not trying to sell it and that he did not care whether the government used it or whether I used it, but he told me that his experience had been that this attachment would increase the efficiency of the carburettor by twenty to thirty per cent. He gave me this thing and I took it home. I did not brush off the idea lightly; I put it on my car. I did not have all the mechanical things with which to test it, but I filled up my car and drove a hundred miles and I found that this attachment raised the gasoline mileage from twenty to twenty-seven miles a gallon. My car was a 1941 Chevrolet. I was not satisfied with the one test; I tried another and I found it did the same thing.


Mr. McCUBBIN:: I would not give that to any government.


Charles Edward Johnston: Probably you would not give it any consideration. That attachment increased the efficiency by twenty to thirty per cent. I venture to say that it would not cost the government more than three cents apiece to make these things. I brought up this matter before because I was much concerned about it. If the government is not concerned in saving twenty-five or thirty per cent of our gasoline, why should anyone else be? If the government wants it, I am ready to give them all the information I have. I will not go any farther than that because I am not concerned with it. I would think that when we are so urgently in need of gasoline it would be worth while to investigate some of these things.


Mr. MARTIN:: Was it sent to the inventions board?


Charles Edward Johnston: Not that I know of.


Mr. REID:: There is a matter I should like to bring up which is somewhat different from the other questions that have been raised. I refer to the use of daylight saving time. When the regulations putting this time into effect were brought in back in 1939 or 1940. the minister pointed out that this action was being taken because of the necessity of conserving electricity. Many people throughout Canada, particularly those in the country districts, feel that we Should go back to ordinary time, especially in the winter time.
It has been found extremely difficult to get children off to school in the dark. When one looks around the city of Ottawa and other cities during the winter time it is hard to see where any real, saving has been achieved by the enforcement of daylight saving time, because in most buildings, and in this one too, all the lights burn throughout the entire day. I wonder if the introduction of daylight saving has brought about the saving in electricity that was expected. Has any consideration been given to going back to regular time?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Consideration is being given from time to time to requests similar to the one being made now by the hon. member. It might be worth while to tell hon. members what the effect would be. In the maritime provinces it is estimated that the demand for power would be increased by approximately ten per cent if standard time were restored. The existing generating facilities are already heavily loaded and the reserve capacity is barely adequate for present requirements. An increase of approximately ten per cent in the maximum demand would be undersirable at the present time.
In the province of Quebec the demand for power in the metropolitan areas would be increased by over 60,000 horse-power. The reserve generating capacity at present available to the interconnected power systems is not sufficient to permit the absorption of such a large additional demand with safety.
In Ontario the demand for power would be increased by over 75,000 horse-power. At the present time Ontario is short of peak power. An additional demand of 75,000 horse-power would be unfortunate at this time and during certain hours would require reductions of power now being delivered.
In the prairie provinces the power systems have for the most part sufficient generating capacity to carry the increased demand without inconvenience. In British Columbia the demand for power in the Vancouver district would be increased by approximately 13,000 horse-power. The generating stations in the district are already heavily loaded. If the demand should be increased by 13,000 horsepower the amount of power required at times of maximum use would exceed the combined capacity of the available hydro plants and the reliability of service would be endangered. The prairies would appear to be the only area that could go back to old time as far as the power situation is concerned.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, I should like to complete the remarks I was making this afternoon when I was pointing out the
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ways in which government policy in connection with the synthetic rubber plant at Sarnia is concentrating power in the hands of a few private companies. I referred to the manner in which private companies have been called in to operate this government-owned plant and also to the fact that enlargements of private rubber plants were being financed by the government. I referred to the large orders which have had to be given to these companies. The point I was making was that public funds are being used to strengthen the position of a few private companies in the rubber industry. And yet, after the war, the consuming public when purchasing rubber goods will have to pay prices that will provide profits to these private companies despite the fact that the stronger position of these companies has been brought about by the use of public funds which were made available to them in the interests of the war effort.
This recognition of the problem created by the concentration of power in the hands of a few companies is to be found not only in this group, but also in other quarters. I should like to quote from page 31 of Saturday Night of March 18, 1944, as follows:
lo an extent as yet undetermined the concentration of industrial capacity has been increased by reason of the unavoidable reliance placed upon large producers in securing war supplies in the shortest possible time.
That is a very good statement of what has actually taken place. If I may quote further:
This fact must be faced so that we may begin to think of the means which must be developed to ensure that those producers who will hold a monopoly or quasi-monopoly position in the post-war period will make full use of the productive capacity which they will control, and not endeavour to maximize profits by curtailing output or maintaining prices at high levels.
I have given that quotation to indicate that others, like those in this group, are worried about the problem created by this concentration of power in the hands of a small number of private corporations. Hon. members will readily recognize that we do not feel that the proposals suggested in the quotation which I have read will meet the problem. Our view' is that when power has been concentrated there is only one place to put it in order to make sure that it will not be used against the public good. The place to put that concentration of power is in the hands of the people themselves.
I should like to take a moment to read briefly from an address given in Washington, D.C., on February 12, 1943, by Wendell Berge, assistant attorney general of the United States. The subject of his address was in the form of a question, "What shall we do about 
cartels in the post-war period?" I consider that his statement with respect to cartels applies to monopolies in general, and that the points he made are points which indicate what may be the outgrowth of the policy being pursued by the government at the present time. I quote from Mr. Berge:
In general, cartels restrict rather than promote _ trade. Cartels typically engage in such practices as dividing fields of operation and market areas between members so as to eliminate competition, restricting production by agreement, and fixing prices so as to avoid price competition. They also promote various kinds of patent licensing contracts which enable them to control and limit the use of new inventions and thus restrict the benefits of technological advance. The effects of these practices include reduced production and employment, higher prices and profits, retarded spread of technological improvements and a lower standard of living.
It is this sort of thing which-frankly-we are afraid of in the post-war period, because of the kind of concentration which has been made necessary by the "unavoidable reliance placed upon large producers for the procurement of war supplies in the shortest possible time." That, indeed, is the reason we have called attention to government policy with respect to the Aluminum Company of Canada, Canadian Industries Limited, Canadian Pacific Air Lines, and, now, the situation with respect to rubber. As I said a few days ago, we are pleased that the government has realized what a private corporation such as the Canadian Pacific is able to do in a short space of time when it is given unlimited opportunity and a free hand. We are glad that the government has decided to take certain steps even though they may not go far enough, in connection with that problem. We feel that this question of rubber calls for the same kind of approach. Our position is that when, under the necessities of war, power has to be concentrated as it is, the people of this country and the government must think in terms of extending the principle of public ownership. That is the only way by which one can make sure that the benefits of modern science and of technological development will accrue to the people as a whole. That is our concern. We feel that we have had an expression of that principle in the period of war. It has been necessary to get goods produced to wage the conflict in which we are engaged, and to the extent that those goods are produced and used for our common defence they are being used for the benefit of the people as a whole. In that sense the benefit of the accelerated war-time production and technological improvements accrues fo the people. We want to make sure that these benefits will likewise

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accrue to the people of Canada as a whole, not to private corporations or private finance, when the war is over. Therefore, I urge that the house and the country face the fact that, as economic power becomes concentrated, there is only one place to put it so as to be sure that it will be used for the benefit of the people, and that is in the hands of the people themselves. That is our position. We in this group believe that it is the only answer to one of the greatest problems which has been created during the present war.


Clarence Decatur Howe: May I make a few remarks in reply. My hon. friend, I think, has been preparing a speech for the hustings. He cannot be serious about what has happened and what has been done at Polymer.
Polymer is a plant owned by the people of Canada. It is a public ownership plant. I have a good deal of experience with public ownership and with private ownership. I have been an industrial engineer in this country for practically thirty-five years. I have worked almost continuously for governments and for private interests, both. Perhaps I have carried out .more work measured in dollar value for private interests, but I have worked for every government in this country during every year, beginning in 1912.


Stanley Howard Knowles: We might give you a job, too.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Public interests are just as
capable of building a plant as private interests. The whole test is in the operating.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Exactly.


Clarence Decatur Howe: If we could guarantee that
governments could operate plants as efficiently as private interests there would be a very good argument that public ownership is better than private ownership. That could be argued. The difficulty is this: if a private industry is not well managed-and plenty are not-it will go broke in a short time, be reorganized, and put under more efficient management. Under public operation that usually does not happen.


John Horne Blackmore: Hear, hear.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It goes steadily down grade.
It is allowed to go down grade, unless it becomes enough of a scandal, when the government is very apt to get rid of it and pass it to private hands.


Mr. CASTLEDEN:: Like the Canadian
National Railways!


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have started a good many
public operations during this war. In every case I have tried to put them under efficient management, the management will make them a public enterprise to serve the country well.
My hon. friend is quite wrong about Polymer. The Polymer corporation is operated by a board of directors, men placed there by the government to have an over-all supervision of the business operation of the plant. The board of Polymer recommend to the government the contracts to be made for the purchase of raw materials, and they have full responsibility in advising the government as to the distribution of the product and as to the price. There are certain very involved technical processes in the plant which are divided into three parts: the butadiene production, which is operated by a subsidiary of Imperial Oil; the styrene process, which. is operated by a Canadian subsidiary of the Dow Chemical company; and the polymerization plant, which is operated by a company organized by the four rubber companies which have research laboratories in Canada, as well as a complete knowledge of the kind of rubber required by Canadian industry. Why is that so? The reason why Imperial Oil were asked to organize the management of the butadiene end is that Imperial have a very large research staff, a trained organization in that special line of production. It was felt that their management would be progressive; that if improvements were brought into the industry they would be put into the polymer plant; and we would be sure at all times of a modern and efficient operation of the butadiene end. It might be asked, why not pick two or three men from the Imperial organization, hire them and put them in charge? It requires more than the knowledge of one or two men; it calls for the knowledge of a strong organization backed by a research laboratory and by trained research chemists *who will advance the art and apply the advancement of industry to the process they have in hand for polymer.
St. Clare Processing company receive a fee for their scientific management of that particular operation. They have nothing whatever to do with the cost of the product at any stage. They simply have a process to manage, and their duty is to carry out that duty as efficiently as possible. The same applies to the Dow Chemical company, which invented the process for the production of styrene. That company is by far the largest producer of styrene on the continent, and the only company that has full knowledge of the art of that particular production. There again we know we have a management that will be as good as any that can be obtained anywhere and that our process will not be allowed to be outmoded. We shall always be up to date on that process.
As regards the polymerization end, we are making rubber to be used by the Canadian
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trade. We want to make the kind of rubber that the trade can use for the purpose of making tires and other finished products which the Canadian people will require. Naturally, we choose the operators of that process from among men who know the requirements of the trade, who know what rubber is and what grades of rubber are required for different products. Here again, these men have nothing to do with the distribution of rubber. They simply make rubber of the required grades, and after it is manufactured it is priced and distributed by the directors of the Polymer Corporation or by such agencies as the government may appoint for the purpose.
It is absurd to say that any one of these men profits unduly by the operation or gets any advantage over competitors. It is just as important to the smallest rubber user in the country to have the quality of rubber from polymer suitable to his needs as it is to the largest company, and the people of Canada as a whole will benefit from polymer only as the product is made cheaply and of the best possible quality.
I hope my hon. friend will refrain from using the line of argument he did to-day. I think it is a little beneath him. The only danger to public ownership is that my hon. friend might get into a position of responsibility and allow his prejudices against certain large firms and against combines and cartels, to interfere with his obligations to keep the management of these great plants, built at government expense, in an efficient state. That is the real menace to government ownership.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I will not take time to argue with the minister, because as a matter of fact anything I would say I have already said in the course of my remarks this afternoon and to-night. I would comment, however, on his statement, in his reply that I was quite wrong in my understanding of the set-up. Anyone who reads Hansard will find that the minister and I have described the set-up in language that is almost identical. Where we differ is in our interpretation as to what will be the post-war result of the procedure the government has adopted. I have placed on Hansard my view of what that development will be and I am prepared to let it stand at that.


Mr. HATFIELD:: At what speed are cargo vessels being built to-day?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is little variation between different types. It is between eleven and eleven and a half knots an hour.


George Hugh Castleden: I have a few remarks to make on another phase of the work, namely, the disposal of plant, material, machinery and
[Mr. Howe.)
equipment. Canadians have spent through the department about ten billion dollars on war equipment, and of necessity there will be billions of dollars' worth of material which will be surplus to war requirements. As the war draws to its close, they will become valuable for use in one way or another in Canada. During war time Canadians have been very patient about having certain facts about production kept secret. As the war recedes, people will want to know more and more about what is being done now, and it is necessary that Canadians should be thoroughly informed of the disposal of goods. Canadians would like to feel that they have control of the disposal of these goods. They will want to knowT what persons decide what shall be done with surplus materials and how those persons have been chosen who have charge of the work. As regards the manner of disposal, do those people who have been given this responsibility ask for tenders in the disposal of goods, or do they make the complete decision as to prices themselves? After they have made that decision, do they keep an itemized statement of accounts of everything, and are those records available to the representatives of the people in the house? What opportunity will the Canadian people have of purchasing these goods for domestic purposes, and who will decide whether or not they shall be so used?
Will the minister give a complete statement on that, particularly that phase of the subject with regard to giving people information as to what has been done? Order in council 9108 was passed in November and the minister said then that there was an emergency. Since that time, pursuant to the order in council, it has been found necessary that a committee be set up to make a report. On February 10 last the report wTas tabled in this house and it said absolutely nothing with regard to disposal. If there was some emergency at that time with regard to the disposal of some goods, and the disposal was made, what record is there of it?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This is a little aside from the discussion. I made a complete statement on the matter. During this session a bill confirming the disposal arrangements will be before parliament and at that time we can have full discussion. All I can say at the moment is that surplus materials are first examined by a committee, made up largely from the civil service at Ottawa, to determine whether they are surplus, and if they are, they are turned over to the disposal corporation for disposal. The corporation is just getting under way. I assure my hon. friend that there will be the

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fullest disclosure of ever}' transaction, and 1 shall be prepared to discuss the matter in great detail when the bill is before the house. Mr. CASTLEDEN: Would it be in order to have the order in council put on the record? Mr. HOWE: It was tabled long ago. Mr. CASTLEDEN: Could it be put on the record? Mr. HOWE: I do not know that it can be more on the record than having it on the table. If the hon. member will get it and put it on the record himself it will be all right with me. Mr. CASTLEDEN: With the permission of the house I should like to have the order in council put on the record complete. I do not want to take the time of the house in reading it. I should also like to put on Hansard the first report of the activities of the War Assets Corporation Limited and the Crown Assets Allocation committee. The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. McCann): Has the hon. member unanimous consent? Then that is agreed. Mr. CASTLEDEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, the documents are as follows: Order in council establishing The Crown Assets Allocation Committee and authorizing the incorporation of War Assets Corporation, Limited. P.C. 9108 At the Government House at Ottawa Monday, the 29th day of November, 1943. Present: His Excellency the Governor General in Council: Whereas the Minister oif Munitions and Supply reports that substantial stocks of surplus assets, the property of the government oi Canada are currently being created as a result of changes from time to time in war production programmes, the progress of the waT, the development of new types of equipment and other factors; That it is desirable and in the public interest that surplus assets owned by the government should be dealt with in such manner as to cause the minimum of dislocation of the economic structure of the country so as to assist in the orderly transition to a peacetime basis of production, following the cessation of hostilities, of industries which during the war period have been wholly or substantially engaged in production for war purposes; and That in his opinion, a suitable mode of procedure, to meet the current situation, would 'be: (a) 'for the governor in council to direct, that each government department or agency should survey and investigate all lands, buildings, structures, plant, machinery, equipment, articles and things (including munitions of war and supplies as defined in The Department of Munitions and Supply Act), and any interests therein or parts thereof, which are held or administered by it, with a view to the determination of the types and quantities of such assets which are surplus to the needs of such department or agency;	(b)	to constitute an inter-departmental committee which will be charged with the duty of obtaining reports from government departments and agencies with respect to such surpluses and of receiving and dealing with applications from any department or agency for any assets which are surplus to the needs of the department or agency bolding or administering such assets, and of formulating and recommending general policies with respect to the disposal of assets which are surplus to the needs of the government; (c)	that the general .policy with respect to the disposal of or dealing with such surplus assets should be determined by the governor in council and that the governor in council should give such general or specific directions as may from time to time be necessary with respect to the determination of such surpluses as aforesaid and the use or disposal thereof. (d)	to create a company which will act as the agent of the government and will be charged with the duty of disposing of or otherwise dealing with surplus assets from time to time transferred or consigned to it and of making recommendations on matters of policy and courses of action with respect to such surplus assets or which in the opinion of the company will promote the national well-being of Canada. Therefore, His Excellency the Governor General in Council, on the recommendation of the Minister of Munitions and Supply and under and by virtue of the powers conferred by the War Measures Act, the Department of Munitions and Supply Act, and the War Appropriation Act No. 2, 1942, is pleased to make and doth hereby make the following order: Order 1.	The term "surplus crown assets" where used in this order means any land, buildings, structures, plant, machinery, equipment, scrap, materials, articles or things, or any interest therein or any part thereof, and all munitions of war and supplies as defined by the Department of Munitions and Supply Act, which are owned or controlled by the government of Canada or any agency thereof and which for the time being, or from time to time, are surplus to the current or probable future requirements of the war programme of Canada or the needs of the government of Canada or any agency thereof. 2.	It shall be the duty of each government department and agency from time to time to survey and investigate all lands, buildings, structures, plant, machinery, equipment, munitions of war and supplies, scrap, materials, articles and things, and any interests therein or parts thereof, from time to time on hand in or administered by such department or agency and to report from time to time to the allocation committee hereinafter mentioned the assets which are or are likely to become surplus to the needs of such department or agency. 3.	There is hereby established under the Minister of Munitions and Supply, or such other minister as may be hereafter designated by the governor in council (hereinafter referred to as "the minister"), an interdepartmental committee, to be known as the "crown assets allocation committee" (hereinafter referred to as the "allocation committee") having the powers and duties hereinafter set forth.
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4. The allocation committee shall be composed of:
(a)	a full-time paid member, to be appointed by the governor in council, who shall be chairman;
(b)	a member to be designated by the Secretary of State for External Affairs;
(c)	a member to be designated by the Minister of Munitions and Supply;
(d)	a member to be designated by the Minister of National Defence;
(e)	two members to be designated by the Minister of Finance, one of wThom shall represent the administrative services of the Department of Finance and the other shall represent the wartime prices and trade board;
(f)	a member to be designated by the Minister of Public Works;
(Each of the aforesaid ministers may designate an alternate to act on the said committee in the absence of the member appointed by the said minister respectively.)
(g)	the president of the company hereinafter referred to:
(h)	a person to represent labour, another to represent agriculture and a third to represent the householders of Canada, all to be designated by the governor in council.
The tenure of office of the members of the committee shall be during pleasure and until parliament shall have passed legislation dealing with the disposal of surplus assets of the crown.
5.	The allocation committee shall have power:
(a)	to require any person, firm or corporation or government department or agency to furnish such facts, data, reports, information or recommendations with respect to actual or probable stocks or supplies of surplus crown assets, or the disposal thereof, as the committee may from time to time deem fit;
(b)	to employ or utilize the services or assistance of any person, firm or corporation whose services or assistance the committee may consider to be necessary or useful in the carrying out of any of the duties or powers from time to time charged or conferred upon or vested in the committee; provided that any remuneration to be paid to any such person, firm or corporation shall be subject to the approval of the governor in council.
6.	It shall be the duty of the allocation committee:
(a)	to survey and make investigations with respect to lands, buildings, structures, plant, machinery, equipment, munitions of war and supplies, scrap, materials, articles and things, and interests therein or parts thereof, reported by government departments or agencies as being from time to time on hand or which are likely to become available, and to report from time to time to the minister regarding the types and quantities of such assets which are or are likely to become surplus crown assets;
(b)	to consider representations made by any government department or agency with respect to surplus crown assets or the disposal or use thereof; to authorize the transfer of assets from one department or agency to another, under such terms and conditions as the committee may decide; and to report to the minister with respect to the foregoing;
(e) to formulate and recommend through the minister to the governor in council general policies or plans for the use or disposal of or dealing with surplus crown assets, and, without 
limiting the generality of the foregoing, to submit for consideration proposals with respect to surplus crown assets
(i)	which might serve administrative needs of provincial governments, municipalities, and other like bodies;
(ii)	which might be distributed in distressed areas;
(iii)	which, for reasons of public policy, should not be offered for sale in Canada, or should be converted back to basic materials, or should be withheld from the market for the time being, or should .severally be the subject of direct action by the governor in council;
(iv)	which should be consigned or transferred to, or placed under the control of the company hereinafter mentioned;
(v)	in which the crown has only a limited interest;
(vi)	which consist of industrial plants, or parts thereof, which are complete operating units; and
(d) to exercise and perform such other duties and make such other investigations and reports as the governor in council or the minister may from time to time direct.
7.	Authority is hereby granted to the Minister of Munitions and Supply to procure the incorporation of a company under the name "War Assets Corporation Limited", or such other name as the governor in council may select or approve, for the purpose of holding, managing, disposing of and dealing with surplus crown assets which are consigned to it by the governor in council. The names of the Directors of the said Company shall be submitted to and approved iby the, governor in council on the recommendation of the minister.
8.	The said company shall be deemed to be an emanation of the crown, and, in exercising the powers and/or discharging the duties conferred or charged upon it, the company shall be deemed to be an agent or the servant of His Majesty.
9.	The company shall be responsible to the minister and all of the shares in the capital stock of the company, from time to time issued and outstanding, other than the qualifying shares of the directors, shall be held by the minister in trust for His Majesty the King in right of Canada.
10.	The minister is hereby authorized to take and cause to be taken all necessary steps to cause the incorporation and organization of the said company to be duly effected and to ensure that it shall be enabled to exercise the powers and perform the duties necessary to accomplish the purposes set out herein. The minister may, for the purpose of providing the company with working capital, make available to the company, by way of payment for shares to be allotted to and held by the minister in trust for His Majesty, or by way of accountable advances, an amount or amounts not exceeding in the aggregate the sum of $5,000,000, such amount or amounts to be allotted or made available for such purposes to the Department of Munitions and Supply out of the moneys appropriated by parliament by means of the War Appropriation Acts.
11.	The governor in council may consign .or transfer to the company crown assets which have been declared by 'him to be surplus to tbe administrative or operative needs of the government of Canada or any agency thereof. Con-

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signments or transfers may be made by either specific or general direction, and shall be accepted by the company as (being subject to any reservation or direction associated therewith, and to any instructions given by the minister with respect thereto.
12.	The company shall have power, subject to the general or specific instructions of the minister,
(a)	to hold, manage, operate, dispose of or deal in and with surplus crown assets consigned or transferred to it, in such manner as it may decide, subject only to any conditions and instructions stipulated at the time of consignment or transfer or in any agreement between the company and the crown.
(b)	to convert back to basic materials any surplus crown .assets consigned or transferred to it;
(c)	to withhold from Canadian or world markets, for such time as it may decide, all or any portion of any surplus crown assets consigned or transferred to it;
(d)	to effect sales of surplus crown assets consigned or transferred to it, in such manner and upon sufch terms and conditions as the company may decide;
(e)	to create or appoint advisory committees and/or to procure the incorporation of subsidiary companies and to delegate to any such advisory committee or subsidiary company any of the powers or duties conferred or charged upon the company;
(f)	to cause the title to any surplus crown assets consigned to it to be vested in the name of the company; and
(g)	to do such other acts and things as may be stipulated or authorized by the governor in council or by the minister or as may be incidental or conducive to the attainment of the objects and the exercise of the powers of the company.
13.	The company shall advise the minister with respect to any policy or course of action which in the opinion of the company would (a) promote the intent and purposes of its incorporation, or (b) further the purposes of this Order or the national well-being of Canada. The company shall also make such other reports and exercise and perform such other duties as the governor in council or the minister may from time to time direct.
14.	Upon the company being incorporated and organized, an agreement with the company, providing for the management and operations of the company and the duties to be performed by it. shall be negotiated by the minister and shall take effect as and when such agreement is approved by the governor in council.
15.	This order shall take effect from the date hereof, but until the governor in council or the minister otherwise directs, transfers of inventory items between departments and agencies of the government of Canada, and sales of any such items, may continue to be made under any regulations or authorizations heretofore in force and applicable thereto.
16.	The minister shall submit to parliament, within fifteen days after the commencement of the session, a report upon the operations of both the allocation committee and the company.
Certified to be a true copy.
A. D. P. Heeney,
Clerk of the Privy Council.
War Assets Corporation Limited
Pursuant to order in council P.C. 9108, dated November 29, 1943, War Assets Corporation Limited was incorporated under the Dominion Companies Act, by letters patent dated December 8, 1943, with an authorized capital of $5,000,000 divided into 50,000 no par value shares, of which 2,500 shares are issued for an amount of $250,000. [DOT]
With the exception of directors' qualifying shares the issued stock is held in the name of C. D. Howe, in trust for His Majesty the King in right of Canada.
Following are the directors and officers of the corporation:
Directors: Messrs. J. B. Carswell, Wilfrid Gagnon. Lt.-Col. Goodwin Gibson, A. C. Guthrie, John Knox, Hugh Lawson, J. P. D. Malkin,
A.	T. O'Leary, J. J. Perrault, R. D. Purdy, J. B. Ward.
Officers:	president. J. B. Carswell; vicepresident, Wilfrid Gagnon; general manager, Hew M. Scott; secretary-treasurer, F. O. Peterson.
An executive committee of the directors is composed of the president, vice-president, and Messrs. Guthrie, Lawson, and Perrault.
The head office of the corporation is in Montreal.
No surplus assets have been consigned to the corporation and the agencies and methods of disposal in existence at the time P.C. 9108 was passed are still functioning.
The attention of the officers of the corporation has, to date, been devoted almost entirely to the task of setting up, in collaboration with crown assets allocation committee, such operating procedures and controls as seem best designed to accomplish the objects for which the corporation was formed. This has included, inter alia, the making of arrangements for the opening of an Ottawa office ot the corporation to be located in the buildings occupied by the Department of Munitions and Supply, and to work in close cooperation with officers of that department and of the crown assets allocation committee, thus avoiding duplication of effort and of staff.
Crown Assets Allocation Committee
The committee was established on November 29. 1943, its membership consisting of the following:	*
Officers: Chairman. J. P. Pettigrew; secretary, C. A. Geoffrion; asst, to the chairman, F. M. Mathias.
Members: Messrs. P. R. Bengough, J. H. Berry, J. B. Carswell, Col. H. DesRosiers, Donald Gordon, W. D. Matthews. E. P. Murphy.
B.	G. McIntyre. Louis Philippe Roy, Mrs. C. H. Thorburn, Mr. Finlay Sim.
The committee has held three meetings. The committee's wnrk to date has been devoted almost entirely to organization and the development of lines of procedure as between the committee and War Assets Corporation Limited. The committee has been in close touch -with officers of the Department of National Defence, and surveys are now under way to determine surpluses of materials and equipment which now exist in those departments due to obsolescence and changes in strategic requirements. Similarly, the committee is working w-ith the Department of Munitions and Supply in an effort to set up a procedure for determining and clearing surpluses which may result from time to time from reductions or changes in production programmes.
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Mr. STIRLING:: There is a little information I have been waiting to ask the minister for. He made a reference to the destroyer programme; he referred to one having been launched and said that the turbine units will be installed this summer, boilers having been installed. Would he tell the committee to what extent the armament, boilers and fittings of various descriptions including the machinery are Canadian made? Will the destroyers be Canadian-built from hull to topmast?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The purpose of undertaking the building of destroyers in Canada was to develop the art of building destroyers here. The intention was that they should be Canadian built in every particular. We have gone into the building of the type of turbines used in destroyers, we have developed engines for them, and we are developing every item of a destroyer. The purpose is also to be able to make repairs here and to increase the fleet. We did it knowing that the cost would be higher than the cost of building the same ships in England. We think the cost is not going to be tremendously" higher. The first ship always costs more than repetitive ships. We estimated that the time required would be about one year longer than in the old country, but the indications are that it will not be as much as that-perhaps eight months longer than the Tribals we have had built in the United Kingdom during the war. We are developing the art of building destroyers in this country. As my hon. friend knows very well, a destroyer is a complicated ship. It is more difficult to build than a cruiser, which is a larger ship but less intricate in its arrangements. I think we are introducing a valuable type of knowledge that will be very useful in our future development.


Grote Stirling: Does that cover armament as well?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. I think the biggest gun on a destroyer is a 4-7-inch and we are making 4-7-inch guns here. If we are not, we are capable of making them. I am not sure, but I think I am correct in saying that all the armament is made here.


Grote Stirling: On the same page the minister refers to salvage operations having been carried on in conjunction with the control of ship repairs, resulting in the recovery of many valuable cargoes. Does that mean that the minister's department has considerable salvage equipment, or that it has let the job to salvage firms?


Clarence Decatur Howe: As my hon. friend knows, we
sdnqjod 'sarandraooi oSbajus aanfl jo oav) OAnq

more, but each is operating as it likes on a commercial basis. Some two years ago we found that there was perhaps more work than these companies were capable of handling with the equipment in hand, and that they were picking and choosing their work to a considerable extent. Therefore we appointed a director of ship salvage and made arrangements to increase the salvage equipment in the hands of the salvage companies. We also took authority to direct the order in which they would undertake salvage operations. There were at that time valuable cargoes lying on the bottom of the ocean in known locations, and where salvage was possible by the use of additional equipment these cargoes were salvaged and war materials of great value recovered. My reference was to the fact that the government has taken in hand the responsibility for salvage operations, and with good results.


Grote Stirling: Do these companies continue to receive the subsidies which they received in the past?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes; I would say that they do. Their earnings are limited under the arrangements, but they are guaranteed against loss. There was no subsidy on the Atlantic coast, but there was in the gulf of St. Lawrence.


Grote Stirling: And a smaller one on the Pacific.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is no salvage tug on the Pacific at the moment.


Grote Stirling: The other question I
wanted to ask the minister had reference to the report on the "Government-Financed Expansion of Industrial Capacity in Canada" which has been tabled. At page 4 there is a reference under War Supplies Limited to Granby Consolidated Mining, Smelting and Power Company Limited, with a commitment total of $200,000, of which only $27,000 had been expended to December 31. Has the total commitment been expended since then? I presume it is for the purchase of copper?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, that would be a capital commitment. I am not sure just what is involved there, but I can get the information for my hon. friend.


Grote Stirling: I wondered whether it was an obligation to purchase copper ore from Copper Mountain.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It refers to Copper Mountain, but if my hon. friend will let his question stand as a notice I will get the information for him to-morrow.

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Grote Stirling: If the minister would
be good enough, would he also say, if he can, whether there is a possibility of increasing the commitment in the near future? The minister knows from my conversations with him the condition of the mine on the top of the mountain.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am advised by my officer that this is the cost of the plant at Copper Mountain. Does my hon. friend know the operation?


Grote Stirling: I do not understand how the government comes into having a commitment with regard to it.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It was to bring in the copper mine. We tjuilt the plant and own it as a government facility.


Grote Stirling: Perhaps the minister will look into the matter and make a statement later.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, I will do that.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Has the government or the minister's department established as yet a policy in reference to the disposal of singlepurpose machinery? A great deal of the equipment that has been used in the production of war munitions is single-purpose machinery, heavy castiron machines. I have observed in more than one place a considerable quantity of single-purpose machines stored up, made largely of castiron, and many of them very heavy. I have wondered on more than one occasion whether it would not be advisable just to smash them up and use them as castiron. They never, can be used for any other work than what they were made for. It 'would be uneconomic to try to make anything else with them, and there is not much else that they could make. Since there appears to be a surplus of these machines I have felt that it would be much better to order them smashed up and melted down to make other machines. Has any policy been suggested or established by the board for the disposal of all such single-purpose machines?


Clarence Decatur Howe: A policy has been established for the sale of government machines. A floor price has been established below which they cannot be sold. Quite a number of machines have been surrendered to War Assets Corporation for sale. As a matter of fact, sales of machines are constantly taking place. So far as single-purpose machines are concerned, some have a future and some have not. The corporation is charged with the responsibility of recommending to the government the destruction of machines if a market cannot be found for them. They cannot be sold below a certain base price; in other words, they 100-120
are not thrown on the bargain counter. If they are not worth the base price they will be reduced to scrap and returned to the smelter.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Take a shell machine, for example. I remember very well that following the last war large numbers of shell machines were sledge-hammered and smashed into scrap iron. At the time the price of scrap iron went very low, and the same thing might happen after this war. If either the department or the board determines that so many hundred or so many thousand of these machines cannot be used for any other purpose after the war, would it not be more advantageous to take that surplus and order it destroyed while scrapiron prices are high, so that the scrap may be used to make something required in the prosecution of the war?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Of course it is a bit early to talk about scrapping single-purpose machines now. The demand for shells may increase and the machines may be required for that single purpose. I can assure my hon. friend, however, that no great accumulation of machines will be permitted, but that there will be a sorting out as between those that can be destroyed and those that cannot.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I should like to ask one or two other questions in regard to this synthetic rubber proposition. I do not think the minister really did himself justice in the differentiation he made between public and private ownership of industry; I believe he said a government could erect a factory but it could not always operate one as efficiently as private industry. As a member of the cabinet the minister has had supervision in turn over the Canadian National Railways, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and Trans-Canada Air Lines which, if one may take at face value his speech of the other day, intends to broaden rather than constrict its field of public ownership. So that I do not think the minister was on particularly good ground in advancing the argument that a government could not efficiently operate-


Clarence Decatur Howe: I did not say it could not; I said the test was whether it could or not.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: That is the test; and where it has been given a fair trial it seems to me the minister himself is one of the men who have been largely responsible for some very efficient administration of government owned enterprises.
I wonder if the minister could explain the set-up with reference to Polymer and its relations with Imperial Oil and Dow Chemical

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Just what is the situation, and what will be the situation after the war? As I understand it, Imperial Oil are manufacturing butadiene from petroleum, and for that purpose they have a pipeline running into Sarnia. In the event of the government deciding to continue the manufacture of synthetic rubber after the war, or in the event of the government deciding to sell Polymer, what would be the position of Imperial Oil? Would the fact that they have this oil-line put them in a preferred position? Would they be in the position that since they have the only pipeline supplying the petroleum out of which they make butadiene, they alone could buy the assets of Polymer, or they alone could supply or refuse to supply any other company that bought the synthetic rubber plant at Sarnia? It Beems to me the fear that is in the mind of many of us, and that the minister could help to clear up, though he has not done so yet, is that the Canadian people have put $4S,000,000 into a splendid piece of engineering, but at the same time Imperial Oil, because of their preferred position, because they have a pipeline in there and because of the fact that they will be supplying the butadiene gas to make the synthetic rubber, will be in a preferred position after the war and will have a controlling voice in the industry.
Then the minister said that this Polymer plant is operating for the good of the Canadian people and for the good of all the rubber companies, large and small. Could the minister give the committee some information as to how buna-S, which I understand is the term for the crude rubber, has been distributed as between the different rubber companies in Canada of which, if I am correctly informed, there are some fifty or sixty? Just how has it been distributed; how have the small companies benefited as compared with the larger companies? As my colleague pointed out this afternoon, the president of Polymer is the general manager of Goodyear Tire and Rubber; the assistant rubber controller is vicepresident of the Dominion Rubber company, and so far as we know these men still have their business connections. Does that mean these rubber companies are in a preferred position? Are they in a position to get a larger share of the raw rubber than are the smaller . companies which are not so fortunately situated?
The third question I wanted to ask the minister was in reference to a statement he made the other day, I think in answer to the hon. member for North Battleford. He compared the cost of producing alcohol from grain and from petroleum, and he said that producing it from grain cost about three and a
fMr. T. C. Douglas.]
half times as much. As I understand it, when the synthetic rubber plant at Sarnia was getting under way, in the initial stages they did produce synthetic rubber from grain alcohol until they got the more elaborate process set up for producing butadiene from petroleum. Would the minister have any figures, not as to the cost of producing grain alcohol, but as to the cost of the finished synthetic rubber produced from grain alcohol as compared with synthetic rubber produced from petroleum? The reason why I ask that question is that I think the minister has given the figure for producing grain alcohol, but he has not given it for the rubber. I have been surprised to find the extent to which grain alcohol is being produced in the United States, and apparently produced economically. In the Montreal Gazette of March 24 of this year I see the following news item:
Washington, March 23. The United States war production board has under consideration twenty-eight proposals for expanded production of industrial alcohol, a senate agriculture subcommittee was advised to-day.
Doctor Walter G. Whitman, assistant director of the board's chemicals bureau, submitted details of the proposals, including type of alcohol to be produced, company and location, anticipated annual production and total estimated costs.
The alcohol would be produced from several sources-petroleum, sulphite liquor, wood waste, grains, sweet potatoes and other materials.
Then it goes on:
Grain proposals outnumber all others, with twelve in all.
In other words, some twelve out of the twenty-eight dealt with the manufacture of alcohol from grain. Then the article proceeds to give the list of plants, the cost of erecting them, and their location, which I do not think is of interest to the committee. The point is that in the United States out of twenty-eight plants they propose to erect twelve for the production of alcohol from grain; and it seems to me that if they can do so economically in the United States, and if they find it beneficial to do so, the minister has not given a satisfactory explanation as to why alcohol cannot be produced from grain in western Canada; not on the basis of $1.40, but produced in western Canada where low-grade wheat can be bought on the prairies for a much lower figure. I would ask the minister those three questions.


Clarence Decatur Howe: In asking his first question
about the preferred position of Imperial Oil, my hon. friend is quite mistaken when he says that Imperial Oil sells butadiene to the Polymer corporation. Imperial Oil sells petroleum to the Polymer corporation. It is made into butadiene in the Polymer plant, the technical

War Appropriation-Supplies
management of which is under a subsidiary of Imperial Oil. But it is decidedly separate; the operation is for and on account of, and with equipment owned by the Polymer
corporation.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Let me get
that straight. The minister means that the petroleum is turned into butadiene by a subsidiary of Imperial, working on a management-fee basis?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes; that is correct.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: And it is produced by Imperial Oil?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No; it is not produced by
Imperial Oil; it is produced by the Polymer corporation. If I manage a plant, I do not produce it; the plant produces it.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: The personnel are of Imperial Oil.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The personnel is, yes. The
personnel are Polymer, managed by Imperial
Oil.	But supposing the government owns the Ottawa Car and Foundry; they place a management contract with myself, personally, to manage that plant. The plant is still owned by the crown, and the product is still that of the crown. I simply handle the mechanics, and turn out the product. And that applies at Sarnia. What I am saying is that we have no business dealings with Imperial Oil, so far as the production of butadiene is concerned.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Except to buy petroleum?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We buy petroleum from the
plant in the first instance. Imperial Oil is in the business of selling petroleum and petroleum products. I can hardly imagine they would discriminate against the Polymer corporation, any more than they would discriminate against anyone else in Canada. I say they are in no preferred position, so far as any arrangement the government may make with the Polymer plant.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Has anyone
else a pipeline over there?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There are only two pipelines into Canada, so far as that goes. There is the pipeline from Portland to Montreal, and to Sarnia from the mid-continent fields of the United States. Those two pipelines come into Canada. But if Imperial Oil refused to sell to Polymer, we could certainly buy petroleum from other sources.
My hon. friend has a very curious idea of business in Canada, if he thinks that one of our big corporations would refuse to sell to one and would sell to another. That process is 100-1201
unthinkable. Therefore I think we can say that Imperial Oil have no proprietary interests in any way in the Polymer plant.
The second question was as to how rubber has been distributed among the manufacturers. Every rubber company I know of, either large or small, has been and is operating at full capacity. And every rubber company I know of in Canada that is manufacturing war goods has been supplied with all the raw material it can convert. The actual distribution of rubber, both the importing of rubber, the stock-piling of it, and the marketing of buna-S rubber, has been handled by a government corporation known as Fairmont Company Limited, which has been responsible for that operation since the period of a scarcity of rubber began. I believe it has handled that situation with great success.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: That is mostly natural rubber that they are distributing.


Clarence Decatur Howe: In the early days. To-day they are using almost entirely synthetic rubber. There is a small stock-pile of natural rubber which is being very carefully guarded for such uses as may require natural rather than synthetic rubber.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Has the minister any information with respect to synthetic-rubber, since it came into production?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It has been distributed in Canada. Everyone in Canada has all he can use, all that the capacity of his plant will permit him to use. We never have had a period at any time when we have not been able to supply all the raw rubber required for war needs-and of course I am speaking only of war needs; not peace-time needs-that our plants could fabricate.
With reference to the question in connection with grain alcohol, I may say that I discussed that matter thoroughly the other day. If my hon. friend can tell me how to get more than two gallons of alcohol out of a bushel of wheat, then he will have an argument. But until then, I do not think he has any real argument.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Has the minister any information as to why they are using it in the United States?


Clarence Decatur Howe: They are using it because it can be brought in much more quickly than-the butadiene made from petroleum. They have been using it, just as we have been using it, because the butadiene base of petroleum was not available. It is available here now. It is becoming available in the United States,, and there will be a changeover.
Progress reported.
Income Tax-Kiska Force



[Stage Direction]
Mr. D. C. ABBOTT (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee of supply.
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, last Monday night at *eleven o'clock I was speaking in the debate -on the motion to go into supply, and was [DOT]dealing with a matter of concern to many people. I had hoped that when I had an *opportunity to conclude my remarks I would be able to persuade the government that it should meet the request I was making.
I rise to-night to express pleasure that my speech has been taken away from me, by the announcement made at three o'clock this afternoon by the Minister of National Revenue (Mr. Gibson). As hon. members will recall, the point I made last Monday night was that something should be done about the heavy burden facing people in connection with paying the balance of their income tax which would fall due on April 30. I am sure the country generally will be pleased with the decision finally made by the government in this matter, as announced this afternoon by the minister. I wish to express my pleasure that the government saw fit, in connection with this postponement of the final date, to provide that no interest will be chargeable on the balance due.
While I am on my feet I should like to refer to another matter which comes under the heading of the payment of last year's income tax. I shall not take much time, because the matter has been discussed before on two or three occasions. I earnestly hope the department of government responsible will see to it that an announcement is made soon with respect to the income tax status of the men of the 13th Canadian infantry brigade who went to Kiska last year. The Minister of National Defence (Mr. Ralston), who for the moment, is also acting Minister of Finance, perhaps might confer with himself in the matter. He has stated on two or three occasions that an announcement would be made shortly. I would point out to the minister and the government that the men affected, as are other taxpayers, are wrestling with the making out of their returns. Those returns must be completed and filed by the end of April, even though payment may be deferred. I would hope that the announcement we have been looking for might be made at an early date.
It will be noticed that I am not arguing the case to-night. I am going so far as to assume

that when the announcement is made it will be favourable, and that the government will decide that these men are to be considered as having gone outside the western hemisphere so far as income taxes are concerned. I earnestly hope that such an announcement will be made before the house rises at the end of the week and that the men who served at Kiska will be told that they do not have to pay income tax for the period during which they were engaged on that expedition.


AGRICULTURAL MARKETING POLICY
Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Mr. Speaker, within the next month the farmers of Canada, particularly those of western Canada, will be on the land. It is needless to say that this would be a most opportune time to have a clear statement made by the government with reference to its agricultural marketing policy for 1944. The year which has just passed, 1943, showed a slight falling off in acreage and a material drop in the amount of cereal crops produced in Canada. I should like to direct attention to some figures which appeared in the dominion bureau of statistics crop report issued on January 21, 1944, as follows:
bushels
Wheat

All Canada		556,134,000
Prairie provinces. 528,450,000
Oats	 652,000,000
Barley	 259,156,000
Rve	 24,742,000
Fiax seed	 14,992,000
bushels
293.660.000
277.000.	000
482.000.	000
215.562.000 7,143,000
17,911,000
With the exception of flax, which shows an increase of three million bushels over the 1942 crop year, all other cereal grains show a serious decline in production. Part of this was on account of the greatly reduced per unit production.


Mr. GARDINER:: Not in marketing.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: As I say, part of this was owing to the greatly reduced per unit production, but it was also in part on account of the reduced acreage.
The total acreages for field crops were as
follows:
1942	 60,809,200 acres
1943	 60,345,600 acres
There was a drop of nearly one half million acres cultivated to field crops. Despite the fact that the value of cereal grains per bushel has greatly increased over last year, the aggregate return to the farmer is down slightly owing to the greatly reduced production. The total gross farm value of all field crops produced was $1,179,073,000 in 1942 as compared with $1,104,065,000 in 1943. It is interesting

to see how this works out with reference to the different crops. The aggregate value of field crops for the two years is as follows:
Wheat Oats .. Barley Rye ... Flax ..

The Economic Annalist issued by the Department of Agriculture shows that the index commodity figure for animal products is slightly above parity, while the index commodity figure for field products is still considerably below parity. The field products index commodity figure is 91-7, taking 1926 as the base of 100, whereas the farm cost of living, with a 1935-39 base of 100, is 121-9. The index commodity figure for all farm produce, including animal products which is 126-1, is still only 104-6, which is still somewhat below parity for the price which is paid to the farm population of the Dominion of Canada. Therefore, I desire to move, seconded by the hon. member for Melfort (Mr. Wright):
That all the words after "that" be struck out and the following substituted therefor:
"This house desires to record its opinion that the agricultural marketing policy of the government is detrimental to the public interest, and that steps should be taken to bring it into conformity with the needs of the farming population."
In the few moments I have at my disposal to-night I wish to outline some of the steps which we in this group think should be taken to bring the government's agricultural marketing policy in line with the needs of the farming population of Canada. I am going to confine myself to dealing with grain crops, letting some of my colleagues deal with other aspects of agriculture. I should like to suggest five steps which I think should be taken with reference to the marketing of cereal crops.
The first has to do with grain deliveries. Almost all western members will remember that last fall the farmers living on branch lines experienced great difficulty in delivering their crop. Parts of my constituency off the main line were as late as the first week in December. At that time many of them had been able to deliver less than five bushels per acre of their basic crop. I wired the wheat board and they explained that they were taking most of the wheat off the main line because they had to get it to the head of the lakes before the shipping season was closed. One could not argue against that, but it still did not help the people on the branch lines who had wheat in their granaries or piled in their back yards and were not able to dispose of it while their obligations were piling up at
Agricultural Marketing Policy
the stores, to their doctors, in the form of taxes to the municipalities and in the way of threshing bills.
The problem of financing has been quite serious, especially in the grain districts. Where farmers were doing a fair percentage of mixed farming they were able to dispose of some of their live stock in order to pay their threshing bills and meet other obligations. They were thus able to wait until such time as they could deliver their grain. But in other districts the farmers were principally grain farmers. In the southern part of the province and in some parts of my constituency the farmers are almost exclusively wheat farmers. In the northern part of the province, in the constituency of the hon. member for Melfort where they produce large quantities of coarse grains, the fact that they could not dispose of these coarse grains or their wheat meant that they had all the expense of taking off the crop and no ready cash with which to meet their many obligations. To deal with that situation we suggest that two things should be done; first, that the government should still give some consideration to a policy which has been followed with success in the United States, of giving the farmer a cash advance for wheat stored on the farm; second, that the government should pay storage, as they did once before, of the same amount per bushel which is paid to line elevator companies, for storing wheat and coarse grains on the farm.
I remember, in the year when the government did pay storage, a very successful farmer in my constituency built a large granary, with a cement floor, a cement wall rising three or four feet around it, a fine frame top and shingled roof. He built it with the idea that he would be able to store his wheat throughout the war period and that, if he were not able to deliver it, at least he could keep it on his farm and, if he stored the wheat over a period of years, the storage charges, which the government were then paying, would make a substantial contribution towards paying the cost of putting up that granary. What happened? The government discontinued the storage payments, and the result is that this man is to-day storing wheat in a first-class granary which is just as safe and just as well kept as if it were in the line elevator two miles down the road; but the difference is that for the wheat in the line elevator the company is drawing two-thirds of a cent per month, or eight cents a year, storage charges from the government of Canada, and the man who built this granary, and has served the country just as well by storing the wheat for the country's convenience, finds he gets no storage payment whatsoever.
Agricultural Marketing Policy


James Garfield Gardiner: When did he build the granary?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Mr. Speaker, I wish to rise to a point of order. I have just got for the first time a copy of the hon. gentleman's amendment. It reads as follows:
This house desires to record its opinion that the agricultural marketing policy of the government is detrimental to the public interest, and that steps should be taken to bring it into conformity with the needs of the farming population.
I direct Your Honour's attention to page five of the estimates, items 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, and specifically, 28, "marketing of agricultural products, including temporary appointments that may be required to be made. ..." I suggest that, in consonance with a previous ruling of Your Honour during this session, this amendment is out of order.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Before Your Honour gives a ruling, may I point out, first of all, that this amendment is almost word for word identical with a motion I moved last year, on March 30, 1943, which was also challenged and which was accepted by Your Honour. May I point out in the second place that there is no single estimate which covers the whole field of the government's agricultural marketing policy. If the interpretation which the Minister of Pensions and National Health (Mr. Mackenzie), is now attempting to place on that ruling were accepted, there is no question which by any stretch of the imagination could be discussed by any hon. member on a motion to go into supply.


Thomas Vien: Following the statement made by the hon. member, we have had an illustration to-night from the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) of an item which can be discussed on a motion for going into supply. I can recall many other items of the kind. I have already given a ruling with regard to motions which can be and will be brought up in the house for discussion; and when it is pointed out to me that in the estimates, page five, Nos. 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, and 27 all deal with agriculture and marketing service, and especially No. 28, "marketing of agricultural products, including temporary appointments that may be required to be made, notwithstanding anything contained in the Civil Service Act, the amount available for such appointments not to exceed $15,000", I find that the amendment which is proposed: "This house desires to record its opinion that the agricultural marketing policy . . ." are exactly the words used in the item I have just quoted, and fall within the [DOT]category of those amendments which I have
(Mr. T. C. Douglas.]
already ruled out of order on the motion that the house go into committee of supply. I therefore must rule this amendment out of order.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that I believe such a ruling will so greatly restrict private members in this house as to make it impossible for them to express any opinion they have, I must regretfully appeal from your decision.
And five hon. members having risen:
Mr. SPEAKER put the question as follows:
The question is that I do now leave the chair for the house to resolve itself into committee of supply, to which Mr. Douglas (Weyburn) moves in amendment:
"That all the words after 'that' be struck out and the following substituted therefor:
"This house desires to record its opinion that the agricultural marketing policy of the government is detrimental to the public interest, and that steps should be taken to bring it into conformity with the needs of the farming population."
I have ruled the amendment out of order on the ground that it falls within the main estimates under items 22 to 28 inclusive, which will be subjects for discussion when these items are before the house.


INCOME TAX
[Stage Direction]
Messrs:
Adamson
Bence
Black (Cumberland)
Bryce
Cardiff
Casselman
(Grenville-Dundas)
Castleden
Church
Coldwell
Douglas (Weyburn)
Gillis
Hansell
Harris (Danforth)
Johnston (Bow River)
Knowles
MacKinnon
(Kootenay East) Noseworthy O'Brien Perley Quelch
Ross (St. Paul's)
Shaw Stirling Stokes Wright-25.
was paired with the
Gordon Graydon: I right hon. the Prime Minister (Mr. King). Had I voted' I would1 have voted against Your Honour's ruling.


Mr. SENN:: I was paired with the hon.
member for Hamilton East (Mr. Ross). Had I voted I would have voted against Your
Honour's ruling.
On motion of Mr. Douglas (Weyburn) the
debate was adjourned.
On motion of Mr. Crerar the house adjourned at 11.15 p.m.
Tuesday, March 28, 1944