1944-02-28

Mr. SPEAKER:: I have the honour to inform the house that I have received a message from His Excellency the Governor General, signed by his own hand, reading as follows:
23rd February, 1944
I have received with great pleasure the address that you have voted in reply to my speech at the opening of parliament, and thank you for it sincerely.
Athlone.
Government House Ottawa.



PRIVILEGE-MR. COLDWELL REFERENCE TO REMARKS IN DEBATE ON FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 24

Mr. M. J. COLDWELL (Rosetown-Biggar):: Mr. Speaker, in accordance with the rules of the house and as my right I wish to direct your attention to a speech made by the Minister of National War Services (Mr. LaFleche) on Friday evening. I asked you to get a transcript to see what the record had to say. At page 901 of Hansard the Minister is reported as having said:
' Well, to take the trouble to protect oneself by slipping in the word "alleged" when one has nothing plain in one's heart is not the act of a brave man, and I regret very much to say this, but actions of that kind remind me that it is well in war time to act the man even though one has not chosen to go to meet the enemy. I have no admiration for men who do nothing of which I know to help to win the war, but remain at home, perhaps not willingly yet effectively, to cause trouble in a family which should remain united so that we can do a better job in helping the other united nations in downing our enemies.
I then said:
I rise to a point of order. Is the hon. gentlemen not casting an innuendo with an imputation reflecting upon the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre?
Privilege-Mr. Coldwell

And the minister said:
And the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar.
I particularly wish to draw your attention to the accusation hurled across the floor of this house that we of this party are national socialists. On page 902 of Hansard the minister is reported as having said this:
The same hon. gentleman expressed some fear that this country might some day be governed under nationalist socialism. Well, I wish to give him my assurance in that respect again.
And I interjected: "Nor do I." Then the minister said:
We now have the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar expressing publicly in this house the view, the opinion, that he will never come to power.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


Major James William Coldwell: May I just interject to say that in my opinion this applause for that kind of statement is unseemly in this house. Then at page 902 the minister is reported as having said:
The hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar does not like to be called, or his party to be called, national socialists, despite what has been said many times and despite that his lieutenant in British Columbia preached the methods employed by that party in Germany of which our friend says he is not a-
The record breaks there. Mr. Speaker, I contend that we are at war with national socialism in Germany, and to endeavour to attack any party in this country as being a national socialist movement is to accuse that party of disloyalty to this country and falsely to imply a position which is not borne out by the facts. May I say that this movement in its philosophy and outlook is exactly the same as the labour and socialist parties of Great Britain, Australia, New Zealand and other countries.


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: That is your opinion.


Mr. REID:: That is just not true.


Major James William Coldwell: I should like to get your ruling, Mr. Speaker.
Hon. L. R. LaFLECHE (Minister of National War Services): Since the last sitting of this house I have had the opportunity of reading the official report of the. proceedings of this honourable house. This afternoon I have listened to the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar, and in reply may I say that in the course of my reading I came across certain statements in Hansard attributed to the hon. member. In an effort to understand their position one must have recourse to what

can be found. Among other things I find the following on page 545 of Hansard of June 5, 1940, where the hon. member is reported as having said:
. . . the secret of the recent success of the Germans is the fact that they have consciously planned their economic structure.
And then later on on another occasion he said that the prosperity built up by the socialists was a type of economy which is causing so much trouble today; and also that they did a remarkable job in a short space of time.


Major James William Coldwell: Mr. Speaker-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Thomas Vien: Is the bon. gentleman rising to a point of order?


Major James William Coldwell: I rise to a point of order. I ask the hon. gentleman to quote the context of the remarks which I made at that time. If he does, he will find that I said the Germans did it for an evil purpose. I asked for your ruling on Friday evening, Mr. Speaker.


Thomas Vien: Order. I must have quiet in the chamber. I have to listen to the hon. member to see that his rights are protected as well as those of the house. I must say that I can see no point of order there.
Mr. LaFLECHE: I do not know whether it is in keeping, but the hon. gentleman reminds me of a cry baby.


Major James William Coldwell: Mr. Speaker, I seek your protection against insults being hurled across the floor of this house.


Thomas Vien: I wish hon. members would direct themselves to the question of privilege. A question of privilege has been raised and a quotation has already been made by the hon. member.
Mr. LaFLECHE: I have attempted to give in a very few words what has been running through my mind in connection with the party, or if you like, the purposes of the small group headed by the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar. If in any way I have done an injustice to anybody, of course, I would make amends.


Major James William Coldwell: That is not good enough. I ask for your ruling Mr. Speaker, whether it is a proper term to use in this house of this party, the term national socialist.


Thomas Vien: The hon. gentleman has risen on a question of privilege, not only on his own behalf but also on behalf of the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. FEBRUARY 28, 1944
Industrial Development Bank
Knowles) and has asked for a withdrawal. The hon. minister has made reply and said that if he has offended any hon. member of the house he wishes to make amends, which I presume means he withdraws his statement. There is no point of order now before the Chair.


Mr. S. H. KNOWLES (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I rise to a question of privilege, as one who is involved in this incident. I direct Your Honour's attention to Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules and Forms, 3rd edition, page 57, citation 123, which says:
A personal attack, by one member upon another, is an offence against the house, in the person of one of its members, which, on account of the respect due from every member to the diaraeter and dignity of the house, as well as the importance of preserving regularity in the debates, calls for the prompt interference of the Speaker.
I also direct Your Honour's attention to Beauchesne's 2nd edition, page 96, citation 295:
The House of Commons will insist upon all offensive words being withdrawn, and upon_ an ample apology being made which shall satisfy both the house and the member to whom offence has been given.
Without reading certain other citations, I simply draw Your Honour's attention to them: Beauchesne's 3rd Edition, page 106, citation 256-


Thomas Vien: Order. The hon. member has risen to a question of privilege. I understood that the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar embodied in his statement the question which the hon. member is now raising.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, I am stating my understanding of the situation. I understand that the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar was really dealing with the charge against him; that he arrived at that charge by indicating that it arose as a result of the attack made by the minister upon me and it is in connection with the attack he made upon me, in which he imputed motives against me and charged me with insincerity and with being cowardly, that I feel an apology is due not only to me but to this house. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, I appeal to the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King), who, as leader of this house is custodian of the rules and rights and privileges of the house, to support me in this request for an apology for this unwarranted attack.


Thomas Vien: As I understood the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar, he referred to Hansard and quoted remarks made by the hon. minister against the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre. The hon. member
also embodied the remarks which had been directed against him personally and asked for a withdrawal of both these statements. The hon. minister has now made a reply, and although he referred only to the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar I take it that he was making amends, as he phrased it, in respect of both the question of privilege raised by the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar and that raised now by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Will the hon. minister state that his withdrawal includes withdrawal of the imputations against me?


Mr. JAMES SINCLAIR (Vancouver North):: Mr. Speaker, I had not the privilege of being in the house on Friday evening, but I should like to associate myself with every word uttered by the minister as reported on page 901 of Hansard with respect to this matter.


Thomas Vien: Order. The incident is closed. The minister has made the statement that if he offended any hon. member of the house he desired to make amends.



INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT BANK


[Stage Direction]
Mr. D. C. ABBOTT (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance) moved for leave to introduce bill No. 7, to incorporate the Industrial Development bank.
Mr. GRAYDON:: Explain.


Mr. ABBOTT:: Mr. Speaker, I presume the house would prefer a more detailed explanation on the second reading of the bill. Briefly, the establishment of this bank represents one part of the government's programme to prepare the way for a high level of employment and of income after the war. As set out in the preamble, the bill is designed to promote the economic welfare of Canada by supplementing the activities of other lenders and by providing capital assistance to industry with particular consideration to the financing problems of small enterprises.


Gordon Graydon: May I ask whether
farmers are to be included in the benefits under this legislation?


Douglas Charles Abbott: No; this applies only to industrial enterprises.


Gordon Graydon: Is there to be another bill applying to farmers?
Questions


Douglas Charles Abbott: The government is giving consideration to other measures having similar purposes in the field of credit for agriculture and housing development.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk)

Mr. HAZEN:: 1.	How many appeals or requests for redress have been made under section 42 of the Army Act, either to the Minister of National Defence, the army council, national defence headquarters, Ottawa, or to the Canadian military headquarters, London?
2.	How many of these appeals or requests have been dealt with, and how many are pending?


Mr. MACDONALD (Halifax):: 1.	No segregation of the number of complaints submitted prior to January, 1943, has been maintained.
From January 1, 1943, to date, 52 complaints under section 42 of the Army Act have been presented to the Minister of National Defence who exercises in Canada the powers of the army council, or to Canadian military headquarters overseas, of which 49 have been dealt with. Three are pending.
2.	Answered by No. 1.



PREMIUM ON HOGS SLAUGHTERED BY LOCAL BUTCHERS

Mr. CARDIFF:: 1.	Is the government giving consideration to the necessity of making provision for the payment of the premium of $3 on Grade "A" hogs and of $2 on Grade "B-l" hogs to apply to hogs slaughtered in plants where governmentgrading is not practised and to hogs slaughtered by butchers in localities where no such grading is possible?
2. If not, will other means be provided to correct the existing situation with respect to hogs slaughtered by local butchers?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	The object of the government premiums on grade "A" and grade "B-l" hog carcasses is to encourage the production of better quality hogs for export and the channelling of such hogs through inspected plants so that the product will be available for export. An official grading service is now maintained at all inspected plants in Canada. Hogs purchased by operators supplying the domestic market only are automatically eligible for the premiums if such hogs are custom slaughtered
iMr. Gray don.]
in an inspected plant. Other than this, consideration may be given to the larger domestic suppliers who slaughtered an average of 50 hogs per week in 1940 and who have satisfactory plant facilities for the weighing, grading, and holding of hog carcasses.
2.	Answered under No. 1.



RADIO BROADCASTING-SHORT-WAVE STATION NEAR SACKVILLE

Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: 1.	Has a contract been let for a short-wave radio broadcasting and receiving station at or near Sackville, New Brunswick?
2.	Were public tenders called?
3.	If not, what firms were asked to tender, and what was the price of each tender?
4.	To whom was contract let, and for what amount?
5.	When -was contract to be completed?
6.	When will contract be completed, stating reasons for delay, if any?
7.	When is it expected station -will be put in finished operating condition?
8.	What is the estimated total construction cost?
Mr. LaFLECHE:
1.	Yes.
2	and 3. The following firms were asked to tender: Cook and Leitch, Montreal; Stewart Construction Co., Sherbrooke; Ambrose Wheeler, Moncton; Foundation Maritimes Ltd.; Acme Construction, Saint John, N.B.; John Flood & Sons, Saint John, N.B.; R. A. Corbett, Saint John, NR.; Colette Freres, Montreal; Anglin Norcross, Montreal; Dan-sereau Ltd., Montreal; A. Janin & Co., Montreal; Redfern Construction Co., Montreal.
Tenders were received from the following firms: Cook and Leitch, Montreal, $254,881; Stewart Construction Co., Sherbrooke, $257,834; Ambrose Wheeler, Moncton, $298,721.19.
4.	To the lowest tender, Cook and Leitch, Montreal.
5.	May 1, 1944.
6.	May 1, 1944.
7.	It had been expected that the station would be completed in the early fall of 1944, but there will be some not great delay due to the now expected late delivery by manufacturers of essential equipment.
8.	Original estimated cost was about $800,000, but the present estimated cost is $1,100,000, the difference being due to the advisability of attaining a greater efficiency of transmission, in keeping with the best practice of constructing radio installations, so that the new short-wave station shall compare favourably with other modern stations in other parts of the world.

Questions
91S



FIFTH VICTORY LOAN

Mr. QUELCH:: 1.	What was the total number of subscribers to the fifth victory loan?
2.	How many of these were on the special names list?
3.	What was the total amount subscribed in,
(a)	those on special names list; (b) all other subscribers?
4.	How much money was advanced by the chartered banks for the purchase of bonds in this campaign to, (a) subscribers on special names list; (b) all other subscribers?
5.	What is the total amount of bonds sold in the five victory loan campaigns that still remain in the hands of the people of Canada, excluding banks?


Douglas Charles Abbott: 1 and 2.
Total number of subscriptions Special names subscriptions... All other subscriptions	
Cash
3,008,336
7,089
3,001,247
Conversion
24,715
24,110
Total
3,033,051
7,694
3,025,357
3.	Total amount subscribed	$1,383,275,250
Amount subscribed-
Special names	 779,619,950
All other	 603,655,300

4.	No information. As at November 30, 1943, borrowings outstanding from the chartered banks to finance the purchase of Fifth Victory loan bonds were as follows:
Corporations	$218,456,251
Employers for employees....	71,919,673
All other	 71,811,644

5.	No precise information is available. However, based on estimates prepared by the National War Finance Committee, holdings of Dominion Government direct domestic funded debt by non-banking investors have increased by approximately $4,900 millions between September 1, 1939 and December 31, 1943.



WINNIPEG-SASKATOON-EDMONTON AIR SERVICE

[Stage Direction]
Mr.- KNOWLES:
1.	Has Winnipeg-Saskatoon-Edmonton been designated as a civil air route?
2.	Is consideration being given by the government to the flying of this route by Trans-Canada Airlines?
3.	If so, when will such service commence?
Mr. MICHAUD:: 1.	Under the Trans-Canada contract, made pursuant to the Trans-Canada Air Lines Act, 1937, a line of aircraft from Edmonton to Winnipeg via Saskatoon has been designated as a line of aircraft to be organized, maintained and operated by Trans-Canada Air Lines. No civil air route has been designated between these points under The Transport Act, 1938.
2.	Yes.
3.	As soon as the radio range and other airway facilities are installed. This work is now in hand.



WARTIME HOUSING LIMITED-PAYMENTS

Mr. NICHOLSON:: 1.	What amounts have heen paid as at
January 1, 1944, to each of the following by the Wartime Housing Limited:	Hutton &
Souter; Prack & Prack; W. L. McFaul; W. L. Somerville; James, Proctor & Redfern; B. R. Coon?
2.	What amounts were owing to them as at January 1, 1944?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: 1.	The following amounts have been paid to the specified firms as of January 1, 1944:
To Hutton & Souter	
$22,868	42To Prack & Prack	
7,271	17To W. L. McFaul	
7,320	00To W. L. Somerville....	10,625	00
To James, Proctor &
Redfern	
31,775	07To B. R. Coon	
7,600	002.	Amounts owing as of January 1, 1944:To Hutton & Souter	
$4,791	77To Prack & Prack	
1,773	14To W. L. McFaul	
240	00
To other firms specified-nil.
TRANSIT CONTROL-SAINT JOHN, Ni. SUPERVISOR


Mr. HAZEN:: 1.	When was D. A. Ross appointed transit control supervisor at Saint John, New Brunswick?
2.	What was his occupation prior to his
appointment?
Questions

3.	What are his duties?
4.	What is he paid?
5.	Under the terms of his employment can he engage in buying and selling secondhand cars?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: 1.	October 17, 1942.
2.	District sales manager, International Trucks, Saint John, NJB.
3.	Mr. Ross functions as a transit supervisor for the area around Saint John and Moncton, N.B., under the direction of the regional transit controller for the Maritimes, Mr. A. C. Wagner. The duties in which he is engaged are connected with street car and bus services in municipalities, the control of taxi services, the application of the wartime industrial transit plan to essential industry, and the direction, together with the provincial authorities, of the interurban bus services.
4.	32,700 per annum.
6.	Yes, in the same way as he may engage in any other occupation in his own time, and providing he "faithfully and honestly fulfils his duties" as an employee of the Department of Munitions and Supply (M. & S. form 392). Refer also to P.C. 128/7359, August 1942, regarding the status of government employees engaging in spare time work outside their regular hours of employment.



WARTIME PRICES AND TRADE BOARD- MAJOR J. E. CAMPBELL

Mr. MacLEAN (Cape Breton North-Victoria) :: 1.	Is Major J. E. Campbell employed as a
member of the wartime prices and trade board at any of its offices in Nova Scotia?	'
2.	If so, (a) when was he appointed; (b) what are his duties; (c) what qualifications and experience had he for the work he is doing;
(d)	what is his salary?
_ 3. Was his appointment made through the civil service commission or the national selective service?
4.	If not, who recommended him?
5.	Is he allowed travelling expenses?
6.	If so, what is the amount of his expenses from the date of appointment until December 31, 1943?


Mr. ABBOTT:: 1.	Yes.
2.	(a) May 8, 1942.
(b)	Major Campbell, in addition to his position as superintendent of rationing for Nova Scotia, is deputy director of rationing for the maritimes. He is responsible for the application of the machinery of rationing in the maritimes and his work embraces the supervision of rationing personnel and the local ration boards of that area.

(c)	Matriculation from the Sandhurst Military Academy, England; eleven years of general business activity in the maritimes; one year with this board as local representative, Yarmouth, N.S., before assuming his present responsibilities. During that period he became familiar with all phases of the board's local work including the machinery of rationing.
(d)	83,000 plus 8800 living allowance per annum.
3.	Civil service commission.
4.	Answered by No. 3.
5.	Yes.
6.	Expenses totalling $2,209.56 have been paid Major Campbell for the period May 8, 1942 to December 31, 1943.



SAINT JOHN, N.B., TAXI POOL

Mr. HAZEN:: 1.	Was the taxi pool at Saint John, New Brunswick, established by order in council?
2.	If not, how was it established?
3.	Is the pool liable for breaches of contract or torts committed, (a) by its officials and employees in the course of their employment; (b) by owners or drivers of taxi cabs that are in the pool while engaged in the work of the pool?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: 1.	No.
2.	The pool was not formed by order of the transit control. The pool was formed at the request of a large majority of taxi operators, was concurred in by the city-appointed wartime transit advisory committee, the city council, and the transit control supervisor of Saint John, N.B.
3.	(a) and (b). The published announcement of the Saint John Wartime Transit association states that "The Association is absolutely a voluntary, non-profit organization to receive, sort and transmit calls for the public benefit. The association assumes ao liability for the acts or omissions of the members or their employees."



MANITOBA COURT OP APPEAL

Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	Have any representations been made to "he federal government by the attorney general iJ Manitoba relating to the Manitoba court of appeal, dated since January 1, 1941?
2.	If any such representations have been made, what consideration has been given by the government thereto?
3.	What are the ages of the judges of the Manitoba court of appeal?
4.	Have any of the judges of the Manitoba court of appeal offered their resignations to the government? If so, which judges, and on what dates?

Questions
5.	Is consideration being given by the government to the retirement of any of the judges of the Manitoba court of appeal? If so, which judges?
6.	Is consideration being given by the government to the appointment of any new judges to the Manitoba court of appeal?
Mr. ST. LAURENT:
1 and 2. No.
3.	85, 79, 73, 72, 65 years respectively.
4.	Yes. The Chief Justice of Manitoba by letter dated August 7, 1943.
5 and 6. The retirement of the Chief Justice of Manitoba by acceptance of his resignation and the appointment of a successor to that office are under consideration.



CANADIAN FORCES-MEDICAL TREATMENT

Mr. REID:: 1.	How many members and former members of the Canadian forces are receiving treatment under the Department of Pensions and National Health?
2.	How many of these are members of the
forces?
3.	How many are discharged personnel, (a) of the present war; (b) otherwise?
4.	What is the total number of patients in the departmental hospitals, including outpatients?
5.	What is the total number of patients in other hospitals, including outpatients?
6.	How many are outpatients?


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: Return as of January 31, 1944:
1.	7,329.
2.	2,828.
3.	(a) 2,404; (b) 2,097.
4.	4,533.
5.	2,796. (This figure includes 97 patients in the Ottawa civic hospital, Ottawa, and 118 patients in the University hospital, Edmonton, at which institutions pavilions were built by the government and a contract rate for patients is paid.)
6.	590, of total shown in answer to No. 1, receiving out-patient allowances.



WHEAT-DELIVERIES TO WHEAT BOARD

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: 1.	What was the total number of bushels of wheat marketed in western Canada during the crop year ending July 31, 1943?
2.	How much of this wheat was delivered to the wheat board?
3.	What percentage of wheat marketed in western Canada was delivered to the wheat board in the crop year 1942-43?


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: 1.	268,219,159 bushels (latest unrevised figures-board of grain commissioners).
2.	167,506,531-45 bushels.
3.	62-45 per cent.



MONTREAL POST OFFICE-PRINCIPAL CLERK

Mr. CARDIFF:: 1.	Has Mr. Stanislas Trudeau, principal clerk at the Montreal post office registration branch, been superannuated?
2.	If so, has he been replaced, and by whom?
3.	Has a Mr. Ducharme Olivier been appointed principal clerk at the same post office to replace Mr. Trudeau?
4.	Was Mr. Ducharme Olivier an employee of the government in the city delivery branch, Montreal post office, and if so, when was he so employed, and was he discharged from that position?
5.	If he was discharged, what was the reason for such discharge?
6.	Were civil service examinations held for the position vacated by Mr. Stanislas Trudeau?
7.	If so, when and where were these examinations held?
8.	Was the postmaster of the Montreal post office or his assistant the examining officer during such examinations?


Mr. MULOCK:: 1.	Yes.
2 and 3. Mr. Ducharme Olivier has been selected for the position by the Civil Service Commission as a result of a promotional competition usual in such cases and in accordance with section 49 of the Civil Service Act. His promotion has not yet been confirmed by civil service certificate.
4.	Yes. From 8th January, 1913, to 15th June, 1929. He was relieved of the duties of the position and assigned to another position with a reduction in rank and salary.
5.	He was relieved of the duties of the position as clerk in charge of the city delivery branch for failure to properly perform these duties. He has already been sufficiently penalized and has again won promotion on merit. [DOT]
6.	No, but the orthodox promotional procedure was followed. See answer to question
3.
7.	See answer to No. 6.
8.	See answer to No. 6.



MACHINERY SERVICE LIMITED

Mr. TUSTIN:: 1.	Is the Machinery Service Limited, Ville La Salle, with head office on Lafleur avenue, a company that is owned by the government of Canada?
2.	Is the Machinery Service Limited operated under government supervision?
3.	Is one Thomas Arnold in the employ of the government, and if so, in what capacity?
4.	Did said Thomas Arnold supervise or direct, or participate in equipping the plant of Machinery Service Limited, and if so, by whose direction or authority did he act?
5.	What has been the total cost to date of equipping and tooling this plant?
6.	What is the number of employees engaged in the plant?
Questions

7.	What number of internees brought to Canada from England are employed in the plant?
8.	What is the present rate or rates of pay of the various classes of labour, skilled and unskilled, employed in Machinery Service Limited?
9.	Was priority accorded to Machinery Service Limited in the procuring of equipment?
10.	What class or classes of products or parts are made in this plant?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Yes.
3.	Thomas Arnold is Machine Tools Controller for Canada, President of Citadel Merchandising Co. Ltd., and President of Machinery Service Ltd. He acts in all these capacities without remuneration.
4.	Mr. Arnold in conjunction with the former general manager and vice-president and the secretary of the company assisted in the equipping of the plant. The requirements at that time were left to the general manager, Captain F. F. Cowling, who was a mechanical administrator.
5.	$370,000.
6.	54.
7.	43.
8.	The rate of pay is the same as in standard machine shops and is under the supervision of the Department of Labour.
9.	Yes.
10.	The plant is used for the reconditioning of used machine tools.



CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION-MILITARY DEFERMENTS

Mr. TUSTIN:: 1.	Has the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation applied for military deferments for any members of its staff?
2.	If so, have any such applications been granted?
3.	Who are the employees in whose behalf such applications, if any, were made and granted, or made and not granted, and what positions do they, or did they, occupy?
Mr. LaFLECHE:
1.	Yes.
2.	Yes.
Employees of the C.B.C. in whose behalf
application has been made for postponement of military training
Name-Classification-Declined or granted Halifax studios:
D.	J. Macdonald (on leave for military duty), news editor, grade 1, granted.
CBV transmitter, Charlesbourg:
R.	Fortin, broadcast operator, granted.
CBV, Quebec:
R.	Belanger, announcer, grade 1, granted.
CBF transmitter, Vercheres:
M. Guimond, broadcast operator, granted.
P. J. E. Boisvert, broadcast operator, granted.

CBM transmitter, Marieville:
P. P. Deziel, broadcast operator, granted. Keefer building, Montreal:
W. G. Roxburgh, broadcast operator, granted. R. E. Santo, assistant broadcast engineer, granted.
F.	G. Gribben, chief storekeeper, granted. Montreal studios:
P. Barette (overseas unit), news editor, grade
2,	granted.
M. Couture, announcer, grade 2, granted.
R. Fournier, supervising broadcast operator, granted.
B.	Lafleur (overseas unit), news editor, grade
3,	granted.
G.	F. Lefebvre, news editor, grade 2, granted.
R.	Lemieux, broadcast operator, granted.
M. Ouimet (overseas unit), news editor, grade
4,	granted.
G. Viau, storekeeper, granted.
M.	Romanelli. broadcast operator, granted.
J. Souliere, broadcast operator, granted.
J. L. DeLorimier (on leave for military duty), clerk, grade 1, declined.
G. Beaudoin (resigned), sound effects operator, grade 1, granted.
55 York St., Toronto:
A.	G. Cowan (overseas unit), producer, grade 2, granted.
N.	M. Morrison, supervisor of talks, granted. W. J. Dunlop, commercial representative,
grade 2, declined.
C.	Maclin, principal clerk, granted.
Toronto studios:
J. C. McCabe, producer, grade 2, granted.
C. Johns, broadcast operator, granted.
S.	A. Campbell, treasurer's cashier, declined. L. Green, announcer, grade 2, 1st request
granted, 2nd request declined.
J. R. Hayward (resigned), broadcast operator. granted.
A.	S. McFee (on leave for military duty), announcer, grade 1, declined.
A. C. Ellsworth, supervising broadcast operator, granted.
L. Duffey, news editor, grade 1, granted.
CBO. Ottawa:
J. A. Boole, broadcast operator, granted.
C. P. Wright, station manager, grade 2, granted.
R. E. Anderson (resigned), producer, grade 2, granted.
CBK. Watrous:
G. R. Backhouse, broadcast operator, granted. J. L. Marshall, supervising broadcast operator, granted.
V.	J. Rowe, broadcast operator, granted.
CBR, Vancouver:
R. G. Dunlop, producer, -grade 2, granted.
E.	G. Rose, broadcast operator, granted.
A. Gelueh, broadcast operator, granted.
C. M. Wilson (on leave for military duty), ^broadcast operator, granted.
W.	J. Herbert, announcer, grade 2, granted.



CANADIAN FORCES-PENSIONS

Mr. WHITE:: 1.	How many discharged men from the armed forces have been examined for pension from 1939 to date?
2.	How many pensions have been awarded after, (a) first hearing; (b) after second hearing?

Questions
3.	How many soldiers discharged after service overseas in category "E" have not been awarded a pension?
4.	At what date was the present scale of pen sions set up?
5.	Has there been any increase since that date?
6.	Is the scale of pensions awarded under section 11-3 of the Pensions Act on the same scale as pensions awarded to soldiers suffering a war disability in an actual theatre of war?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Return as of December 31, 1943, in respect of former members of the forces of the present war:
1.	The Canadian pension commission has examined and rendered a first hearing decision in the cases of 39,318 discharged men and women.
2.	(a) Entitlement to pension was granted in 7,180 cases; (b) (i) entitlement to pension was granted on second hearing in 444 cases, (ii) entitlement to pension was granted on appeal board hearing in 359 cases.
3.	Records do not reflect a break-down of the categories of soldiers who have not been awarded a pension. However, on first hearing, entitlement to pension was not granted in 3,258 cases of soldiers after service overseas.
4.	June 27, 1925.
5.	Answered by No. 4.
6.	Section 11 (3) of the Pension act provides that the commission may in its discretion award such pension, not exceeding the ordinary rates of pension prescribed by the act, as it may, from time to time, deem to be adequate in the circumstances.



DOMINION SUCCESSION DUTIES

[Stage Direction]
Mr. WHITE,:
What amounts have been collected, by provinces, under the Dominion Succession Duty Act to date?
Mr. GIBSON:: To January 31, 1944, there has been collected since its inception under the Dominion Succession Duty Act a total of $31,907,535 divided as follows by provinces:
Prince Edward Island	$	49,648
Nova Scotia	 666,236
New Brunswick	 488,062
Quebec	 11,895,315
Ontario	 15,547,825
Manitoba	  649,750
Saskatchewan	 326,185
Alberta	 690,989
British Columbia	 1,591,683
Yukon	 1,842
Canada	$31,907,535



MUTUAL AID, 1943-CANADIAN EXPORTS

Mr. POULIOT:: What was the value of the Canadian exports to each one of the united nations by virtue of the War Appropriation (United Nations Mutual Aid) Act, 1943?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: A report to parliament
will be made as provided by the Mutual Aid Act, Bill 76, 1943, clause 8:
As soon as practicable after the close of each fiscal year, the board shall prepare and lay before parliament a report of operations under this Act: Provided that such report shall not contain any information the disclosure of which would, in the opinion of the governor in council, be prejudicial to the security of Canada or of any other united nation.



HEALTH CENTRES

Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: 1.	Has the government, through the Department of Pensions and National Health, authorized the establishment of five health centres at Ottawa, London, Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver?
2.	Are similar health centres being established in the maritime provinces? If so, state locations, size of site and the estimated completed cost.


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: 1.	The government has authorized the establishment of one health and occupational centre, near Ottawa.
2.	Consideration is being given by officers of the department to the advisability of establishing similar institutions at other sites.



WAR SERVICES DEPARTMENT-WAR CHARITIES DIVISION

Mr. FAIR:: 1.	How many, (a) men; (b) women, are employed in the war charities division?
2.	What is the general purpose and work of this organization?
3.	What is the monthly payroll of the division?
4.	Are any of the employees military men?
5.	If so, what are their names, rank and occupation prior to the war?
Mr. LaFLECHE:
1.	(a) 10 men; (b) 13 women.
2.	The general purpose and work of the division are defined by order in council P.C. 8488, October 31, 1941, as follows: "To administer 'The War Charities Act and the regulations made hereunder; to cooperate with all organizations registered under the War Charities Act including such organizations as are or may become subject to the supervision of the national war services funds advisory board, and generally, to promote, organize and coordinate different forms of voluntary assis-
Questions

tance, with a view to the most effective use of personal service or material contributions for the prosecution of the war and the welfare of the nation'."
3.	The February 1944 payroll is $3,093, plus cost of living bonus $165.
4	and 5. Yes. Angus Mowat, major, inspector of libraries, province of Ontario; James M. Humphrey, major, general insurance; and Malcolm J. MacLeod, major, chartered accountant. (All on temporary loan from Department of National Defence, Army.)



NATIONAL DEFENCE (AIR)-COST-OF-LIVING BONUS

Mr. NOSEWORTHY:: 1.	Is the Department of National Defence for Air paying its civilian employees the full cost-of-living bonus?
2.	If not, what bonus per week are they being paid?
3.	Is this in line with the cost-of-living bonus being paid other government employees?


Mr. POWER:: 1 and 2. Civilian employees of the Department of National Defence for Air are paid cost-of-living bonus under order in council P.C. 6702 and regulations provided in accordance with the terms of that order in council.
3.	Yes.



WAR VETERANS' WIDOWS-HOSPITALIZATION

Stanley Howard Knowles: When war veterans' widows in receipt of special widows' allowances are hospitalized, (a) what amount of their allowance is paid to the hospital for their maintenance; (b) what amount is paid to the widow; (c) what amount, if any, is suspended during the period of hospitalization?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: When information as to hospitalization comes to the attention of the War Veterans' Allowance board, (a) a maximum of $15 per month if amount of allowance permits; (b) balance of allowance; (c) none in any case so far dealt with.



AID TO RUSSIA

Mr. CHOQUETTE:: What aid has Canada furnished to Russia to the present date, (a) in money; (b) munitions; (c) food; (d) clothing, etc., giving the details and figures for each category and the amount in each ease?


Lionel Chevrier: A report to parliament will be made as provided by the Mutual Aid Act, bill 76, 1943, clause 8:
"As soon as practicable after the close of each fiscal year, the board shall prepare and
fMr. LaFleche.]
lay before parliament a report of operations under this act: provided that such report shall not contain any information the disclosure of which would, in the opinion of the Governor in Council, be prejudicial to the security of Canada or of any other united nation."



WARTIME HOUSING LIMITED-VICTOR T. GOGGIN

Mr. NICHOLSON:: 1.	What salary was Mr. Victor T. Goggin paid when made general manager of Wartime Housing Limited?
2.	What salary was he receiving at the time of his resignation?
3.	What is the total amount paid to Mr. Victor T. Goggin by the Wartime Housing Limited for, (a) salary; (b) travelling expenses; (c) allowances?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: 1.	$10,000 par annum.
2.	$12,000 per annum.
3.	(a) 833,047.80; (b) $9,537.58; (c) None.
The above amounts are as of February 28th,
1944.



OLD AGE AND BLIND PENSIONERS

Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	Is consideration being given to increasing the maximum payable to old age and blind pensioners beyond the amount provided bjt order in council P.C. 6367 of August 10, 1943?
2.	Is consideration being given to raising the ceiling on the income of pensioners beyond that provided in section 8 (f) of the Old Age Pension Act, 1927?


Douglas Charles Abbott: These questions relate to matters of policy and it is not the practice of the government to disclose matters of policy in giving answers to questions.



*R.C.A.F.-H. M. (MARLOWE) KENNEDY

Mr. McGREGOR:: 1.	Is one H. M. (Marlowe) Kennedy, formerly of Winnipeg and now of Ottawa, serving in Ottawa as a member of the Royal Canadian Air Force with the rank of wing commander?
2.	If so, is dependents' allowance being paid on his account, and what is the relationship of the recipient or recipients to the said Kennedy?
3.	What post does he now occupy in Ottawa, and when was he named to such post?
4.	Were any recommendations or references as to his qualifications or character obtained by the department from any civilian source prior to his appointment to his present post?


Charles Gavan Power: I should like to answer this question orally, as follows:
1.	Yes.
2.	Dependents' allowance is being paid on his account to Mrs. N. A. Kennedy, Barbara

Questions
Joan and Charles W. Kennedy, wife and children of Wing Commander H. M. Kennedy.
3.	Wing Commander Kennedy is assistant director of Air Transport Command and was posted to R.C.A.F. headquarters on 5th October, 1943.
4.	The appointment of Wing Commander Kennedy to his present post was made in full accordance with the promotion policy of the R.CA.F. and on merit. Civilian sources are not consulted by the R.C.A.F. with regard to postings and promotions within its rank.
I answer this question orally because I would wish, Mr. Speaker, to draw your attention to the kind of question which has been *asked. I have no desire to restrain hon. members from asking questions; on the contrary, I think that they should have full privilege to ask any questions they desire and place them on the order paper. But I do seriously doubt the propriety of placing on the order paper such questions as this. Any one of us, any member of this house and any member of the services, might have some skeleton in his family closet which would be disclosed or to which attention could be drawn by questions of this kind. Personally I think it is not a good practice, and I would hope, Mr. Speaker, that through the Clerk we could find some means whereby at least, when questions of this kind are to be placed on the order paper, the minister and the department concerned would be advised. It so happens in this case that Wing Commander Kennedy is one of the best officers in our service, so that I have no objection to answering the question.


Gordon Graydon: May I, in the absence of the hon. member for York East (Mr. McGregor) who is at the moment out of the chamber, in whose name the question appears on the order paper, say to the minister that while he has made some reference to the kind of question this is, he himself could very readily have spoken to the hon. member and have avoided unnecessary publicity in connection with it.


Charles Gavan Power: I am not the guardian of an hon. member's sense of what is good taste and what is decent. I simply point out that I think the question should have been submitted to me before it was placed on the order paper and a doubt cast on the integrity of one of the abiest and most conscientious men in our service.



SELECTIVE SERVICE AND UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE OFFICES, NEW BRUNSWICK

Mr. HATFIELD:: 1.	How many selective service and unemployment insurance offices are there in New Brunswick?
2.	Where are they located?
3.	What is the grade of each of these offices?
4.	What are the names, positions and home addresses of each of the employees of each of these offices?
5.	What are the salaries and other remuneration of each of these employees?
6.	How many of these employees are returned soldiers?
7.	Were all of these employees appointed by the civil service?
8.	If not, how were they appointed?


Mr. MITCHELL:: Miss I. P. Jollymore, Clerk, grade 4, 126
Steadman St., $1,680.
Miss I. M. Steeves, Clerk, grade 3, 229 Church St., $1,380.
Miss G-. W. Anderson, Clerk, grade 3, 35 Mountain Rd., $1,440.
Miss H. L. Mitton, Clerk, grade 3, 260 Weldon St., $1,380.
Miss N. Goguen, Clerk, grade 3, 137 Bridge St.. Saint John, $1,380.
Mrs. A. B. Trent, Clerk, grade 3, 91 High-field St., $1,380.
Mrs. Mary Fulkerson, Typist, grade 1, 24 High St., $780.	*
Miss K. S. Duffy, Clerk, grade 1A, 108 Weldon St.. $900.
Miss L. D. Savoie, Clerk, grade 2, 249 High St.. $1,080.
Miss M. E. Heir, Clerk, grade 2, 377 Lutz St., $1,140.
Miss G. E. Savage, Clerk, grade 2, 105 Westmoreland St., $1,140.
Miss E. M. Gillespie, Clerk, grade 2, 94 Wesley St., $1,140.
Miss P. Gillespie, Clerk, grade 1, $21 Robinson St., $840.
Miss L. M. Cormier, Clerk, grade 2, 77 Weldon St., $1,140.
Miss E. K. Lutes, Clerk, grade 1A, 132 North St., $900.
S.	C. Wright, E. & C.O., grade 5, 22 Portledge Ave., $2,700.
D.	J. Fraser, Enforcement officer, 116 Bonac-cord St.. $3,000.
E.	V. Moran, Enforcement officer, 212 Princess St.. Saint John, $2,100.
J.	E. Hebert, Enforcement officer, Edmund-ston, N.B.. $1,800.
W. T. MacDonald, Ins. inspector, grade 3, c/o Moncton Regional Office, $2,640.
G.	H. Purdy, Ins. inspector, grade 2, 71 Post-lege St., $2,040.
J. R. Mclnerney, Ins. inspector, grade 2, Rexton. N.B., $1,920.
F.	Belliveau, Ins. inspector, grade 2, 18 McAllen Lane, $2,040.
E.	B. Price, Ins. inspector, grade 1, Camp-bellton, N.B.. $1,620.
J. A. Leblanc, Ins. inspector, grade 1, Camp-bellton. N.B., $1,920.
W. M. Kesson, Ins. inspector, grade 2, c/o Fredericton Local Office, $2,100.
R. A. Ross, Ins. inspector, grade 2, 190 Winslow St., Saint John, $2,040.
G.	E. Connelly, Ins. inspector, grade 1, 170 Brittain St., Saint John, $1,620.
C.	M. Merritt, Ins. inspector, grade 1, 113 Princess St., Saint John, $1,620.
T.	C. Crosbie, Special representative, 1 Fallsview Ave., $3,200.
W. Roberts, Emp. adviser, grade 1, 204 Bon-accord St.. $3,000.
J. F. Munro, Investigator NSS grade 2, 221 Douglas Ave., Saint John, $2,700.
C. Shirley, Investigator NSS, grade 2, 142 Leinster St., Saint John, $2,700.
J. C. Peek, Investigator NSS, grade 2, 47 Cedar Grove Cres., Saint John, $2,700.
A. B. MacLean. Investigator NSS, grade 2, Dominion Govt. Bldg., c/o Moncton Reg. Off., $2,700.
J. P. Merrithew, Investigator NSS, grade 2, 233 Douglas Ave., Saint John. $2,700.
L.	C. Jones, Investigator NSS, grade 1, 143 Dominion St.. $2,400.
H.	A. MacDonald, Investigator NSS, grade 1, 19 Reserve St., $2,400.
[Mr. Mitchell.1
H.	S.	Murray, Investigator	NSS,	grade 1,
c/o Moncton Reg. Off. Dominion Govt. Bldg., $2,400.
B.	L.	Davies, Investigator	NSS,	grade 1,
c/o Moncton Reg. Off. Dominion Govt. Bldg.,

R. A. Patterson, E. & C.O. grade 1, 136 Lester Ave., $1,200.
Mrs. D. H. Hourston, E. & C.O., grade 1, 265 Botsford St., $1,320.
Miss M. I. Haley, Clerk, grade 2, Sunny Brae,



N.B., $1,140.

[Stage Direction]
W. I. Steeves, Clerk, grade 3, 43 Winter St., $1,440.	„
C. A. Craig, Clerk, grade 3, 92 West St., $1,380.
Miss R. Pond, Clerk, grade 1, 90 Pine St., $840.
Mrs. J. K. Welling, Typist, grade 2, 267 Robinson St., $1,080.
J. G. Gunn, Clerk, grade 2, 192 Dominion St., $1,080.
B E. Perry, Steno., grade 1A, 161 St. George St., $900.	.	„
Miss M. S. Clarke, Clerk, grade 1A, 39 Cornell St.. Moncton, $900.
Miss O. Comeau, Clerk, grade 1, 251 Dominion St.. Moncton. $720.
Miss L. I. Oulton, Clerk, grade 1, 176 Church St., Moncton, $720.
Miss M. L. Girouard, Clerk, grade 1, 181 Wesley St., Moncton, $780.
Miss M. J. Douglas, Clerk, grade 1, Petit-codiac, N.B., $720.
Miss L. M. Leblanc, Typist, grade 2, 162 Church St., $1,140.
Miss J. W. Hedgecoe, Steno., grade 1, 237 Highfield St., $720.
Miss G. I. Ward, Steno., grade 1, 134 Alma St., $780.	.
Miss A. E. Freestone, Typist, grade 1, 168 Cameron St., $840.
Bathurst Local Office
M.	C. Hachey, E. & C.O., grade 2, Bathurst, $1,800.
J.	J. Sullivan, E. & C.O., grade 1, Bathurst, $1,380.
M.	E. Hachey, Clerk, grade 1, West Bathurst, $720.
Miss M. A. Frenette, Clerk, grade 1, West Bathurst, $840.
CampbelLton Local Office
A. L. Fournier, Mgr. E. & C.O., grade 1, 3 Central St., $2,100.
C. E. Champoux, E. & C.O., grade 1, Camp-bellton. $1,320.
W. D. Colford, E. & C.O., grade 1, Campbell-ton, $1,200.
Mrs. A. F. Harquail, E. & C.O., grade 1, 3 Arran St., $1,320.
G. G. MacKenzie, Clerk, grade 3, Box 623, Campbellton, $1,380.
K.	H. Thomas, Clerk, grade 2, 21 Aberdeen St., $1,080.
Miss V. H. M. Campbell, Clerk, grade 2, Box 23, Campbellton, $1,140.
Miss M. I. Cantwell, Clerk, grade 1, Campbellton, $840.
Miss M. C. Shannon, Clerk, grade 1, 7 Gerrard St., $840.
Miss M. B. Lanteigne, Clerk, grade 1, Campbellton, $840.
Edmundston
H L. Yiel. Mgr. E. & C.O., grade 1A, 58 Church St., $1,800.
L.	N. Cyr. E. & C.O., grade 1, 50 Church St.,
[Stage Direction]
Miss M. Wortman, Clerk, grade 1A, 21 Yeniot St., $900.
Miss M. Ouellett, Clerk, grade 2, 103 Canada Road, $1,080.
R. Roussel, Typist, grade 1, 9 Lynott St., $780.
Miss G. Lajoie, Clerk, grade 1, 13 39th Ave., $780.	,
Miss A. E. Dupuy, Steno., grade 2, 13 Dugal St., $1,080.
Fredericton
A. G. Woodcock, Mgr. E. & C.O. grade 1A, 768 Brunswick St., $1,800.
M.	C. Walker, E. & C.O. grade 2, 268 Queen St., $1,620.
R. H. Colwell, E. & C.O. grade 1, 206 Argyle St„ $1,200.
T. H. Rutledge, E. & C.O. grade 1, Armoeto,
N.B., $1,200.	.
F.	B. Gibson, E. & C.O. grade 1, 763 Union St.,
[Stage Direction]
Miss R. E. Miller, Clerk, grade 3,159 Saunders St., $1,380.
Miss D. A. Dow, Clerk, grade 1A, 459 Needham St., $900.
Miss A. F. Miller, Steno., grade 1, 429 Charlotte St., $720.
Miss M. A. Atkinson, Steno., grade 2, 187 Brunswick St., Fredericton, $1,140.
Questions
[Stage Direction]
Miss I. A. Fraser, Steno., grade 1, N ash wash Bridge, N.B., $720.
M. Fraser, Typist, grade 1, 364 Brunswick St., Fredericton, $840.	[DOT]
Minto
W. C. Fanjoy, E. & C.O., grade 2, Minto, $1,500.
I). C. Mockler, E. & C.O. grade 1, Minto,
[Stage Direction]
L.	B. Campbell, E. & C.O. grade 1, Ripples,

[Stage Direction]
Miss E. M. Brown, Clerk, grade 2, Chipman,

[Stage Direction]
Miss G. C. McDougal, Steno., grade 1, Minto, $720.
Miss V. Millican, Steno., grade 2, Newcastle Bridge, N.B., $1,080.
Miss M. E. Gunter, Steno., grade 1, Minto, $720.
Newcastle
W. Ferguson, E. & C.O., grade 2, Newcastle, $1,620.
M.	C. McMahon (Miss), E. & C.O., grade 1, Chatham, N.B.. $1,440.
C. Young, Steno., grade 2, Newcastle, $1,140. Y. M. T. Gautreau (Miss), Steno., grade 1, Newcastle, $720.
Saint John
W. J. Ryan, Mgr. E. & C.O., grade 4, 126 Douglas Ave., $3,000.
M. C. Smith, E. & C.O., grade 4, 26 Barrington St., $2,400.
W. F. Reid, E. & C.O., grade 4, 80 Gilbert Lane, $2,100.
F.	M. Belyea, E. & C.O., grade 2, 122 Prince St., $1,620.
J. Laidlaw, E. & C.O., grade 3, 239 Germain St., $1,800.
W. N. Carney, E. & C.O., grade 3, 190 St. James St., $1,800.
E.	G. Nelson, E. & C.O., grade 1, Fairville, N.B., $1,320.
E. Foster (Miss), E. & C.O., grade 2, 32 Carle-ton St., $1,620.
E. Kominsky (Mrs.), E. & C.O., grade 2, 231 Union St.', $1,620.
E. C. Shannon (Miss), E. & C.O., grade 1, 136 Carmarthen St., $1,320.
A. W. Baxter, E. & C.O., grade 1, 154 Main St„ $1,200.
M. A. Purchase (Miss), E. & C.O., grade 1, 248 Prince William St., $1,320.
J. W. Foley, E. & C.O., grade 1, Loch Lomond Rd., $1,200.
M. M. Finley (Mrs.), E. & C.O., grade 1, St. Andrews, N.B., $1,320.
M. M. Cronin (Miss), E. & C.O., grade 1, 227 Main St., $1,320.
M. V. McKeil (Miss), E. & C.O., grade 1, General Delivery, Saint John, $1,320.
H.	E. Campbell, E. & C.O., grade 1, 260 Germain St., $1,200.
L.	F. Ward, Clerk, grade 3, 410 Douglas Ave., $1,440.
\V. A. Dougherty, Clerk, grade 3, 148 Germain St., $1,500.
W. C. Stanton, Clerk, grade 3, 151 Queen St„ $1,440.
W. D. Davis (Mrs.), Clerk, grade 3, 5 King St., Fredericton Junction, $1,380.
G.	A. Kindred, Clerk, grade 2, 163 Guilford St., $1,140.
M.	T. Connolly (Miss), Switchboard op., 1194 King St. E., $900.

R. I. McCloskey, Clerk, grade 2, 259 Duke St., $1,140.
R. M. Lamb (Miss), Steno., grade 2, 2 Harris St., $1,140.
E.	M. Thomas (Mrs.), Clerk, grade 2, 218 City Line West, $1,080.
H.	H. Hamilton, Clerk, grade 2, 10 Mecklenburg St., $1,080.
P. M. Evans (Miss), Clerk, grade 1, 164 Rockland Rd., $840.
L.	T. Murphy, Clerk, grade 1, 254 Main St., $840.
M.	E. Campbell, Clerk, grade 1, 393 Main St., $840.
J. Amero, Clerk, grade 1, 242 Lancaster Ave. W., $720.
H.	E. Lyons (Miss), Clerk, grade 1, 22 Meadow St., $840.
F.	M. Prime (Miss), Stenographer, grade 1, 18 Sand Cove Rd. W„ $720.
G.	T. McCarthy, Clerk, grade 1, 18 Wood-ville Rd. W., $720.
E. C. Dolan (Miss), Stenographer, grade 2, 39 Carleton St., $1,140.
H.	I. Gold (Miss), Stenographer, grade 2, 174 Waterloo St., $1,080.
M. T. Powers (Miss), Stenographer, grade 2, 187 Germaine St., $1,080.
M. Babkirk (Miss), Stenographer, grade 1, 157 Market Place, $720.
R. D. McCullum (Miss), Stenographer, grade 1, 160 Adelaide St., $720.
M. Clarke, Stenographer, grade 1, 28 Victoria St. W„ $780.
St. Stephen
C. A. Ryder, E. & C.O., grade 2, St. Stephen, $1,500.
L. W. O'Brien, E. & C.O., grade 1, St. Stephen,
[Stage Direction]
G.	L. Monahan (Mrs.), Clerk, grade 2, Milltown, N.B., $1,080.
B.	M.	Leland	(Miss), Clerk, grade	1, St.
Stephen, $780.
P.	Lyons (Miss), Stenographer,	grade 1A,
St. Stephen, $900.
Sussex
C.	H.	Alward,	E. & C.O., grade	2,	Church
Ave., Sussex, $1,740.
L.	R.	Forbes,	E. & C.O., grade	1,	Sussex,
[Stage Direction]
P. H. Smith, Clerk, grade 2, Sussex, $1,080.
M.	K. Devine (Miss), Stenographer, grade 2, Main St., Sussex, $1,080.
Woodstock
A. E. Everett, E. & C.O., grade 2, Woodstock,

[Stage Direction]
G. A. Dibblee, E. & C.O., grade 1, Woodstock, N.B.. $1,200.
L. Kearney, Clerk, grade 2, Bath, N.B., $1,080. E. M. Connell (Miss), Clerk, grade 2, 'Woodstock, N.B., $1,080.
6.	Nine.
7.	Yes.
8.	See answer to No. 7.

Questions as Orders for Returns

Mr. CARDIFF:: 1.	Is there a quota system for income tax collections in each inspectorate, with competitions for prizes between inspectorates or individual civil servants?
2.	Are salaries and promotions in the income tax branch dependent in any way on the amounts of tax which civil servants succeed in assessing against individual citizens or corporations, or both?
3.	If such a system exists or has existed in the last ten years, at what dates did it start or stop?


Mr. GIBSON:: 1.	No.
2.	No.
3.	Answered by Nos. 1 and 2.
/flags ON PUBLIC BUILDINGS-NATIONAL FLAG
Mr. LaCROIX (Quebec-Montmorency) :/*
1.	Who is the superintendent of dominion government buildings in charge of the distribution of flags which fly over public buildings?
2.	Has this officer a sufficient number of "union jack" flags for public buildings?
3.	When his supply is deficient, does he distribute in lieu thereof "Canadian red ensign" flags?
4.	Has he received an order providing for the replacement of such "Canadian red ensign" flags by "union jack" flags as soon as the stocks of "union jack" flags on order have arrived, with the further instructions that, in the future, only "union jack" flags must fly over public buildings, and that "Canadian red ensign" flags must be used solely for special decoration purposes?
5.	Has the government at last decided to endow Canada with a distinctive national flag so as to replace definitively the "union jack" flag which now flies over all our public buildings ?/
/Mr. MACKENZIE KING: Mr. Speaker, I had better answer this question orally. Section 5 of the question is:
Has the government at last decided to endow Canada with a distinctive national flag so as to replace definitively the "union jack" flag which now flies over all our public buildings?
I would say first of all that the question as worded is neither direct nor straightforward. However the purpose of it is clear enough: it is one which brings up the advisability or inadvisability of creating a flag controversy at a time of war. The question is similar to one which was asked on two occasions, if not on three occasions, at the last session of parliament by the same hon. member. At that time I replied to his question in the following words, on June 21, 1943, as reported in Hansard, pages 3823 and 3824:
A national flag is one which normally is used by a single nation only, and which is used to distinguish that nation from others at international gatherings, and to serve as a symbol of it. The red ensign, with the union jack in the first quarter next to the staff, and the Canadian coat of arms in the fly has for over seventy years been very generally used in situations where a flag specially distinctive of Canada was essential. It was first authorized by the government of Sir John A. Macdonald shortly after confederation for use on Canadian merchant vessels. Its use as a distinctive emblem on all buildings owned or occupied by the Canadian government and situated outside Canada was authorized by order in council on January 26, 1924. It has been popularly accepted as a flag distinctive of Canada.
The union jack, while not a flag distinctive of Canada, may correctly be flown on land in any part of His Majesty's domains.
I question whether this would be a suitable time at which to have parliament determine which particular flag-the union jack, the red ensign, or some other flag to be specially designed-should be declared to be the national flag of Canada.
I have nothing to add to what has been said by the ministry at previous sessions on this matter of a national flag. I should like-however to avail myself of this opportunity to point out that the conference at Quebec in August last presented an occasion on which it was desirable, indeed essential, that a flag specifically distinctive of Canada should be flown. The use of the red ensign flown at the citadel throughout the proceedings of the conference as a symbol of Canada, at the side of the union jack and the stars and stripes, was widely and most favourably commented upon^
The other parts of the hon. member's question are matters of departmental detail which have little or no significance, unless discussion is to be raised on section 5 of the question as asked, and I would request therefore that what I have said be taken as a reply in full.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. HATFIELD:: 1.	Is Dr. W. A. Smith an employee of the gove'rnment?
2.	If so, where is he employed?
3.	What is his salary?
4.	What were his travelling expenses in 1943?
5.	What were his qualifications for his present position?


R.C.A.F.-MOSQUITO PLANES-TORONTO DE-HAVILLAND PLANT
Mr. NOSEWORTHY:: 1.	On what date did the Toronto DeHavilland plant begin to tool up for the production of Mosquito planes?
2.	On what date did actual production of planes begin?
3.	On what date did the government take over the plant?

Questions as Orders for Returns
4.	How many Mosquito planes had been completed and how many accepted by the R.C.A.F. by the date which the government took over the plant?
5.	How many have been completed since the government took over the plant?
6.	How many of these have been accepted by the R.C.A.F.?
7.	How many planes are off the production line and resting in the grounds at the present time?
8.	Why have these not been delivered to the R.C.A.F.?
9.	What is the longest period of time the first of these to be off the production line has been lying in the field?
10.	Has any work formerly done in the plant's machine shop been contracted out since the government took over?
11.	If so, for what reason has this been contracted out?
12.	What safeguards are taken to protect the government against excess charges on subcontracts?
13.	Are sub-contracts always given directly to the manufacturer, or are they sometimes given to firms who in turn sub-let them again to others?
14.	Has the government discovered any instances of overcharging on sub-contracts let out by DeHavilland?
15.	If so, what was the nature of the subcontract, the firm concerned, and the amount overcharged?
16.	What price was paid by the government to the DeHavilland company for, (a) land, buildings and improvements; (b) machinery tools and equipment; -(e) planes and parts completed and in process of being built; (d) contracts not completed?
17.	What were the terms and conditions on which the plant was taken over by the government?
18.	What funds had the government made available to the company before it was taken over for, (a) building and extension of plant; (b) purchase of machinery and tools; fc) any other purpose?
19.	What was the value of government-owned machinery and equipment in plant at the time it was taken over?
20.	What depreciation had the company been allowed to write off against its own investment from 1939 to date on which the government took possession?
21.	What percentage was this depreciation of the company's total investment in the plant?
NOfiEL DEFENCE INDUSTRIES PLANT
Mr. NOSEWORTHY;
1.	Has the defence industries plant at Nobel been closed down?
2.	If so, how many men are still employed at the plant?
3.	What was the total capital investment of the government in constructing and equipping this plant?
4.	Has any study been given to the use of this plant for the production of peace-time goods?
5.	If so, by what committee, board or body?
6.	Have any plans for its further use been agreed upon?
7.	What possibilities of use are under consideration at present?	...	.
8.	What horse-power of electricity is available at the plant?
[Mr. Noseworthy. 1
9.	From what source was it supplied?
10.	What was the cost of the government of bringing electricity to this plant?
11.	What is the capacity of the water-pumping plant on this property?
12.	What was the cost of installing this w-ater system ?
13.	How many war-time houses were constructed on the property?
14.	What was their cost?
15.	What was the cost of erecting a school on the property?
16.	Is that school now in use?
17.	How many staff houses were provided-
18.	What was the cost of these?
19.	Are these now occupied, and by w-hom?
20.	Is there a hospital on the property?
21.	What was the cost of constructing and equipping this hospital?
22.	What use is being made of it at present?
23.	Are any plans made for its future use?
24.	How was the plant heated?
25.	What was the cost of installing the heating system?
26.	Has the government a title to the land on which the plant was built?
27.	If not, who are the owners, and on ivhat terms has the government held the land?
28.	Has any of the equipment been removed from the plant?
29.	If so, by whom, and for what purpose?
30.	Is the plant to be dismantled or to remain intact?



CANADIAN FORCES-NUMBER AND SERVICE OF PERSONNEL DISCHARGED

[Stage Direction]
Mr. HANSON (Skeena);
1.	How many members of the navy, army and air force have been discharged to civil life since the outbreak of the war?
2.	Of these, how many served for, (a) less than three months; (b) more than three and less than six months; (c) more than six and less than twelve months; (d) more than twelve months?
3.	How many served in Canada only?
4.	How many had service in a theatre of war, as defined in the Pension Act?

Mr. REID:: 1.	How many members of the armed forces have been discharged to civil life since the beginning of the present war?
2.	Has a record been kept of employment placements of such discharged personnel?
3.	If so, how many have been placed through facilities of national employment service and welfare division of the Department of Pensions and National Health?
4.	How many are registered as out of work and seeking employment?
5.	How many have received, (a) out of work benefit; (b) unemployment insurance benefits?
6.	With respect to those receiving unemployment insurance benefits, has the government paid contributions into tbe unemployment insurance fund?
7.	If so, to what amount?
8.	How many discharged personnel have been awarded other benefits under the post discharge order?

Motions jor Papers



BEEF INSPECTORS-CARCASSES CONDEMNED

Mr. BLACKMORE:: 1.	How many inspectors in Canada are charged with the responsibility of inspecting beef in the various packing plants in Canada to determine whether or not such beef should be condemned?
2.	What are the names of such inspectors, and what are the names and locations of the plants each inspects?
3.	How many carcnsfui were condemned in 1943 by each of such inf pec tors?
4.	Was the packing plant in each ease reimbursed for the carcasses condemned? If so, how much was paid to packing plants in this connection?
5.	If packing plants were not reimbursed, what value did the inspector place upon carcasses which were condemned?



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE COMMISSION- CIVIL SERVICE COMPETITIONS

Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: 1.	How many competitions have been held by the civil service commission to secure staff for the unemployment insurance commission for positions of, (a) managers of local offices; (b) other grades, carrying minimum salaries of over $2,100, in which the minimum qualifications of candidates included the ability to speak, read and write the English and French languages?
2.	What are the competition numbers, the position titles, the salary ranges, and the location of 'these positions?
3.	What are the names of those appointed as a result of such competitions?
4.	In which of these competitions were candidates required to pass a written examination, and what are the names of such candidates (if any) ?
5.	In which of these competitions were candidates who had been recommended as qualified by oral examining boards rejected by the civil service commission because of lack of the language qualification mentioned in (1), and what are the names of such candidates?



H.M.C. DOCKYARD, HALIFAX-PLUMBING WORK

Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: 1.	Have labour organizations, management or others made requests since the start of the war that suitable quarters be provided to carry on plumbing work at HJM.C. dockyard, Halifax, Nova Scotia?
2.	Has the government provided the desired quarters? If so, are buildings being renovated or newly built?
3.	What are sizes of required buildings, type of construction, and estimated costs completed?
4.	If new buildings are being erected, from what firms were tenders requested; what was the amount of each; to whom was contract let, and at what price?
5.	Has machinery and equipment for plumbing work been kept in storage pending the securing of suitable quarters? If so, where?



ALBERTA COAL

Mr. CARDIFF:: 1.	How many tons of coal were mined in the years 1940, 1941, 1942 and 1943?
2.	How many tons of Alberta coal were shipped to each province in Canada in each of the above years?
3.	Is there an embargo on Alberta coal coming into Ontario?
4.	If so, why?



SELECTIVE SERVICE-MEN OF MILITARY AGE IN VARIOUS OCCUPATIONS

Mr. POULIOT:: 1.	With the exception of those mentioned in subparagraphs 2 (a), (b), (c), (d), (f), (g), (h), (i), (j), (k) of paragraph 3 of the national selective service mobilization regulations, how many men of military age have been declared, (a) physically fit; (b) physically unfit, in each province?
2.	How many men of each province are in each one of the three branches of the Canadian army?
3.	How many Canadians are in, each one of the three branches of the British forces?
4.	How many men of military age are now
engaged in each province in the following occupations, (a) farming; (b) fishing; (c) lumbering; (d) mining; (e) shipbuilding; (f) aircraft production; (g) ammunition and gun production; (h) arsenals and small arms ammunition production; (i) automotive and tank production; (j) chemicals and explosives production; (k) gauge and cutting tool production; (1) petroleum refineries; (m) railways and telegraph lines; (n) construction and repair of locomotives and railway cars and maintenance of the right of way of the railways; (o) other transportation systems (tramways and trucks); (p) power companies (excluding tramway conductors) ;	(q) dominion public service; (r)
merchant marine; (s) the pulp and paper industry; (t) the textile industry (including the manufacture of military equipment); (u) the steel industry; (v) the rubber industry; (w) the leather industry; (x) the operation and repair of telephone lines; (y) the manufacture of alcohol for war purposes; (z) newspapers and periodicals?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Mr. ROSS (Souris):: For a copy of the report of enumerators who tabulated prices paid to packers by retailers for pork products during the month of May, 1942, and referred to in the annual report of the Minister of Agriculture for the year ending March 31, 1943, on page 124.
Return tabled.



ARMY BOOTS

Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: For a copy of all letters, communications, reports or other documents dated between October 2, 1939, and August 6, 1943, wherein one James Clark, of Toronto, formerly an inspector of or in the employ of the Department of National Defence, and/or the inspection board of the United Kingdom and Canada, alleged or complained that army boots of
Motions jor Papers

inferior quality or manufacture were being manufactured for or supplied to the government by the firms named by him, together with a copy of all letters received by the Minister of National Defence, or the acting minister from the said James Clark, and/or anyone on his behalf, relative to his complaints with regard thereto or requesting an investigation thereof, and the replies made thereto since August 6, 1943, to date hereof.


Mr. RALSTON:: I explained to the house the other night, when the matter came up, that the inspections referred to are done by the joint inspection board of the United Kingdom and Canada, and that the British government have a substantial interest in the operations of the board because of the fact that only approximately thirty per cent of the inspections are done for the Canadian government. The board reports through me so far as Canada is concerned and through the high commissioner for tl}e United Kingdom so far as the United Kingdom is concerned. I mention this because I have some doubt whether or not reports of this kind, by a board which is conducted as an inspection board and simply as an administrative body set up in this way, should be brought down in this house. I have consulted the high commissioner for the United Kingdom, Mr. MacDonald, and he agrees with me in having no objection in this particular case, save in one respect, and I mention it because it has to do with a general rule that exists in the house. I would not consider it in the public interest to bring down reports made by inspectors to their superiors in connection with this, or any other matter, with which the inspection board is concerned. The house will understand that the inspectors^ are carrying out inspection duties in connection with from
10,000	to 20,000 different items, from boots to guns, radio equipment and so on, and it would be totally irregular and highly prejudicial for the reports of the inspectors to be brought down in connection with these matters. They come within the rule mentioned by the Prime Minister the other day with reference to reports by officers of a department on matters having to do with the department and submitted to a superior officer. Mr. MacDonald and I have no objection to bringing down the correspondence mentioned, that is, the correspondence with the minister but which has not to do with reports made by Mr. Clark at the time he was an employee of the board and acting in his official position as an inspector, these reports being made to his superiors.


Thomas Vien: Carried, subject to the reservation made by the minister.



WINDSOR, N.S., TRANSIT AND EMBARKATION DEPOT

Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: For a copy of all correspondence since April 1, 1942, between the Departments of National Defence, Munitions and Supply, Public Works, and Finance, and property holders, contractors and suppliers of equipment and material, in connection with the acquiring of property, construction of buildings and extensions or other works and improvements at the transit and embarkation depot at Windsor, Nova Scotia.



REQUISITION AND PURCHASE OF VESSELS

James Arthur Ross: For a return showing, 1. Under whose name the following vessels were registered in August, 1939, and on August 31, 1940, 1941, 1942, 1943, respectively, namely, Bricoldoc (4364/3279), Canadoc (4589/2894), Cartierdoc (1919/1142), Collingdoc (1780/1285), Coteaudoc (1940/1160), Farrandoc (1925/1143), Fort Wildoc (4542/ 3055), Ganandoe (1924/1144), Bamildoc (1926/
1151)	, Kenordoc (1789/), Kingdoc (1926/1152), Lachinedoc (1926/1149), Lavaldoc (1918/1142), Laivrencedoc (1924/1144), Mantadoc (4466/ 3060), Mondoc (1926/1147), Newbrundoc (1934/
1152)	, Novadoc (1779/), Ontadoc (4467/3082),
Portadoc, Prescodoc (1936/1151), Prindoc (3813/2837), Quedoc (3072/1874), Sarniadoc (1940/1160), Saskadoc (4611/2876), Soodoc (4575/3188), Soreldoc (1926/1147), Thordoc (2158/), Torondoc (1927/1151), Troisdoc (1925/ 1146), Vandoc (4488/2539), Wellandoc (1926/ 1151).	'
2.	Which of the said vessels, if any, were requisitioned, (a) for use by the government of Canada, or any board or crown company under authority of the government of Canada; what compensation was paid and to whom, for same, per diem, per month or otherwise; (b) by the Canadian shipping board acting as agents for other than Canadian authorities?
3.	Which of the said vessels were purchased by the government of Canada, and what amounts were paid or contracted to be paid for each vessel, showing date of purchase or acquisition, and date or terms of payment, and under what act or statute the said vessels were requisitioned or purchased?



DOMINION BOND ISSUES, HOLDINGS BY CHARTERED BANKS, ETC.

Mr. QUELCH:: For a return showing 1. A list of the Dominion of Canada bond issues since outbreak of the present war, (a) public issues; (b) issues sold to chartered banks; (c) issues sold to Bank of Canada, showing issue dates^ and maturity, rate of interest and amount of issue.
2.	A list of Dominion of Canada bond redemptions since the outbreak of war.
3.	The holdings of dominion bonds by the chartered banks as at August 31, 1939, and December 31, 1943.
4.	The holdings of dominion bonds by the Bank of Canada on August 31, 1939, and December 31, 1943.
5.	Canadian deposits in chartered banks as at August 31, 1939, and December 31, 1943.
6.	Cash reserves of chartered banks as at August 31, 1939, and December 31, 1943.

Awards jor Gallantry



PRAIRIE FARM ASSISTANCE-ED. ZAHORSKI

[Stage Direction]
Mr. DOUGLAS Weyburn):
For a copy of all expense accounts, vouchers, receipts and forms A-101 submitted by Ed. Zahorski, employed by the Department of Agriculture under the P.F.A-A., from June 15 to August 15, 1943, inclusive.

Mr. RAYMOND:: For a copy of all communications or correspondence exchanged between the dominion Department of Labour and the Department of Labour of the province of Quebec since 1939 in connection with the employment of workers and the salaries paid to them.


Mr. MITCHELL:: As a matter of courtesy we shall ask the provincial government at Quebec whether we may table this correspondence, and if we receive an affirmative reply it will be tabled.



ADAMO D'AGOSTINO

Mr. COLD  WELL@: For a copy of all memoranda, communications, agreements, orders in council and other documents from September 7, 1939, to the present, relating to the retirement or dismissal of Mr. Adamo D'Agostino from his position as an employee of the Post Office Department at Niagara Falls, Ontario.



WAR LABOUR BOARD-BURMIS LUMBER COMPANY

Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: For a copy of a letter from R. B. Richardson, and others, dated January 27, 1943, at Burmis, Alberta, to the national war labour board, and a copy of the reply thereto, dated February 2, 1943: also copy of a letter from the said R. B. Richardson, dated December 16, 1942, to the national war labour board, and the reply thereto, dated January 7, 1943; also copies of any letters, telegrams or other correspondence passing between Burmis Lumber Company, of Burmis, Alberta, and the national war labour board, or any of its officials during the years 1941, 1942 and 1943; also copies of reports of any inspectors or officials of the national war labour board relating to the foregoing case.



CANADIAN ACTIVE SERVICE FORCE ASSOCIATION

Gordon Knapman Fraser: For a copy of a letter dated November 6, 1943, and a letter dated December 15, 1943, addressed to the Hon. the Minister of Labour and the Hon. the Minister of National Defence from the Canadian Active Service Force Association, Post 1, Toronto, together with copies of the replies thereto.



NATIONAL RESEARCH COUNCIL-WARTIME BUREAU OF TECHNICAL PERSONNEL

Stanley Howard Knowles: For a copy of all correspondence and memoranda, dated since January 1, 1943, exchanged between national selective service and the wartime bureau of technical personnel, also between 100-59
each of these bodies and the national research council, relating to the retaining and/or employing of personnel by the national research council.



LOAN OF SI,000,000,000 TO MEET LOANS OR OBLIGATIONS, TO PURCHASE UNMATURED SECURITIES, AND FOR PUBLIC WORKS AND GENERAL PURPOSES

[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. L. RALSTON (for the Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution:
Resolved, that the governor in council be authorized to raise by way of loan under the provisions of the Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act, 1931, an amount not to exceed in the whole the sum of one thousand million dollars for paying or redeeming the whole or any portion of loans or obligations of Canada and also for purchasing unmatured securities of Canada and for public works and general purposes.
He said: His Excellency the Governor General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the consideration of the house.
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gordon Graydon: I should like to direct a question to the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance, of which I have sent him a copy by way of notice. Is he in a position to indicate to the house when the next victory loan appeal will be made?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I am not in a position to give a definite date. It will be the latter part of April. I hope to be in a position to make a statement as to the definite date within a few days.


Gordon Graydon: Is the parliamentary assistant in a position to give an indication as to the amount that will be asked for?


Douglas Charles Abbott: No.



CANADIAN FORCES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gordon Graydon: I desire to make a request of the Minister of National Defence (Army) and the Minister of National Defence for Naval Services. On February 24 the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of National Defence for Air placed on the pages of Hansard

Awards for Gallantry

a list of members of the R.C.A.F. and R.A.F. who have been decorated for gallantry in this war. I am sure' that hon. members read this list, as I did, with deep interest, and it has occurred to me that a list should also be placed upon Hansard of Canadians in the navy and army who have received similar recognition. I should like the two ministers to give this matter their consideration, for the names on these lists of awards are those of Canadian citizens who have made and are making for us a contribution which none of us will be able adequately to repay.


James Layton Ralston: As a matter of fact the list has not been published because we have been waiting for the gazetting of a number of recent operational awards. The list cannot be made up until they are gazetted. I anticipate that the gazette will be published very shortly. As soon as that is done a list showing the names of those gallant and devoted men and women of the Canadian army will be tabled.


Gordon Graydon: I knew that later on the minister would be tabling the list, but the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of National Defence for Air (Mr. Macmillan) did not table the former list; he placed it on Hansard. It is so important and interesting that I think the minister should do that, if he would.


James Layton Ralston: That will be done, of course.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The Minister of National Defence and the Minister of National Defence for Naval Services intend to table, when they are ready, lists of decorations awarded to the gallant men of the army and navy. Without derogating in any way from the gallantry of these men and women, it should be observed that a large number of civilians have been decorated in this country-
Some hon. MEMBERS; Not for gallantry.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I should like to know when that list and the list of citations that must have accompanied the recommendations will be available to members of parliament. It is important to have the list of decorations and the reasons for which they were given. I add that none of these individuals are members of parliament.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. H. A. BRUCE (Parkdale):: Having reference to the statement of the Prime

Minister on Thursday, February 10, as appearing on page 321 of Hansard, to the effect that *'it is the intention of the government to make certain amendments" to wartime wages control order, 1943, P.C. 9384, and to the Prime Minister's request that the matter be allowed to rest until after the government had heard the representations of labour organizations, which has since been done, is the government prepared to lay before the house its proposed amendments, and will the government provide an opportunity for discussion of the amendments?


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: My hon. friend's question might stand as a notice.



RADIO BROADCASTING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John George Diefenbaker: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National War Services in regard to a matter that was brought up on Friday with reference to the broadcast made over the facilities of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation by Mr. Philpott, of Vancouver. In the press of to-day there is a resume of what Mr. Philpott said on that occasion. I am not going to refer to what he said other than to point out that in dealing with the return to Canada of Lieutenant-General Andrew McNaughton, he said:
I have not had secondhand access to the papers the Prime Minister showed the leaders in parliament, but I have received reliable information on this case, which shows that it raises some issues of deep national concern.
He goes on to say:
Whatever may be the constitutional theory, the fact is that we are still in double colonial status-not just to Britain as formerly, but now- also to our good neighbour the United States.
The representative of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation at the coast, Mr. Ira Dil-worth, said:
We don't act as a censorship body of news. There are certain limits placed on commentators, but they do not constitute exactly censorship.
What are the limitations short of censorship placed on the commentators who use the services of the national network? I request also that the script be tabled.
Hon. L. R. LaFLECHE (Minister of National War Services): I am sorry, but I cannot answer the question at the moment. May it stand as a notice?

Supply-War Loans



CLOTHING


Mr. J. R. MacNICOL (Davenport):: May I ask the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Abbott) a question in connection with wartime prices and trade board regulations? In Toronto on Saturday a prominent leader of the suit industry of Canada pointed out that on January 28, the president of the board of trade was asked a question in the British House of Commons as to when restrictions were to be removed in connection with the making of suits in the United Kingdom. He replied that following what had taken place in the United States he had issued orders that on and after March 1 all restrictions on the making of suits in the United Kingdom would be removed. Unless the wartime prices and trade board in Canada issues similar orders, our manufacturers will be at a great disadvantage.


Thomas Vien: This question also will stand as a notice.



VEGETABLES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. A. CRUICKSHANK (Fraser Valley):: Would the Minister of Agriculture state when the subsidies on corn, beans and peas will be announced?


Thomas Vien: This will have to stand as a notice, also.
. Mr. CRUICKSHANK: With all deference to your ruling, Mr. Speaker, I have received several telegrams in regard to this matter, and it is urgent,


Thomas Vien: It will have to stand as a notice.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Then if I may direct another question to the Minister of Agriculture, I am informed that the British government is very anxious to obtain corn, beans and peas in connection with the war effort. Am I correct in that understanding?


Thomas Vien: This question will have to stand as a notice.



BORDER CROSSINGS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. NORMAN J. M. LOCKHART (Lincoln): An acute situation having arisen at 100-59£
border points in my part of the country, and the Minister of Labour having been advised of the situation, according to press reports, would he make a statement at an early day indicating just what will be the position, particularly in respect to workers who have to cross the international line?
Thomas Vien: That will have to stand as a notice also.


Mr. LOCKHART:: The situation is acute, Mr. Speaker, because working men are being refused permission to cross the international border, and I think the matter is important.


Thomas Vien: I presume it is also important that the minister should have an opportunity to make an adequate reply to the question asked by the hon. member, so that I think he should be given notice.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: I am quite willing to have this serve as a notice, then, but I should like the minister to make a reply as soon as possible.



WAR LOANS-STATEMENT OF MR. WRIGHT ON MOTION OF MINISTER OF FINANCE

[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee of supply.	* [DOT]
Mr. P. E. WRIGHT (Melfort):: Before we go into committee of supply, Mr. Speaker, there is a matter I wish to bring to the attention of the house, arising out of the question asked by the leader of the opposition (Mr. Graydon) with respect to the floating of a new war loan.
Since the beginning of the war we have raised sums of money beyond anything we dreamed possible before this war started, and that money has been raised through borrowing and taxation. Approximately fifty per cent of the money we have required has been secured through borrowing. I have before me the public accounts for the year 1943, and at page lvii I find these words:
Furthermore, it should be noted that the second victory loan campaign had closed as late as March 7, 1942, hardly more than three weeks before the beginning of the fiscal year 1942-43, and the fourth victory loan drive opened on April 26, 1943, or less than four weeks after the close of the fiscal year. Thus, although only $991-4 million appears as receipts from victory loans during the year ended March 31, 1943, nevertheless in the fifteen months from February 16, 1942, to May 15,	1943, over
$3,143 million in cash was subscribed by the general public in three loan campaigns.
And a little later:
In order to assess the results of the borrowing programme properly, it is necessary to consider
Supply-War Loans

the period from the start of the war to the close of the fiscal year 1942-43, so that accidental factors like the timing of loan campaigns and other transactions will be less important. This is done in table XXIII, which shows that from September 1, 1939, to March 31, 1943, $3,266'8 million out of total new borrowings (that is, excluding the conversion or renewal of previous issues) amounting to $5,124-6 million were subscribed by the general public, or 63-7 per cent.
Since then we have had two more victory loans, the fourth loan for approximately SI,200 million and the fifth loan for something like $1,300 million. So that when you make allowance for the amounts subscribed by the banks, the large insurance companies and various other institutions in Canada, you find that the general public have contributed something over $2,500 million through small individual subscriptions to loans since the beginning of the war.
I should like to see the government give these small investors, who have come forward so willingly, some guarantee that these bonds will not be allowed to fall below par. The large companies, the insurance companies, banks and other institutions holding large blocks of these loans, are quite able to carry them to maturity, when they will receive the par value. The government should give the small investors a guarantee that they also will be able to get par for their bonds.


Gordon Graydon: What about the policyholders?


Percy Ellis Wright: The insurance companies
are quite prepared to carry these bonds to maturity, when they will get 100 cents on the dollar, so that the policyholders are protected. I am speaking in behalf of the thousands of small investors who are to be found in the army, in factories and on farms throughout the country, who have invested in these loans in order to build up savings which may be used for purposes of reestablishment when the war is over.
We all know what took place after the last war. I have a neighbour who served in the army for four years during that war and whose people purchased a $500 war bond for him. In 1920, when he needed money, he sold his bond, but received for it only $450. On the other hand those who were able to carry their bonds to maturity were paid 100 cents cn the dollar, with interest not on $450 but on the full face value of their bonds. I have in my hand the quarterly listings on the Toronto and Montreal stock exchanges for the third victory loan, 5J per cent bonds issued October 27, 1919 and due November 1, 1934, giving the low and high for each quarter. It will be seen that in the quarter ending March 31, 1920,
i A J r. Wright.]
these bonds sold at $97. In December of the same year they sold at a low of 881 and a high of 94. In March, 1921, the low was 92 and the high 96J. In December, 1921, the low was 94J and the high 99J. In 1922 they reached par, and from then until maturity they remained at or above par. As a matter of fact, in March, 1924, the low was 102J and the high 1031, and they went as high as 105J in December of 1927.
Thousands of our soldiers who are overseas are sending home their deferred pay to be put into victory bonds. Thousands of girls in the air force, thousands of workers in factories and thousands of men on the land have subscribed to these bonds. Many of these people will want their money in the period immediately following the war, in order to reestablish themselves, and before another victory loan is floated I think the government should give some assurance that these bonds will be held at par.
I have before me the particulars of the second and third victory loan campaigns in Saskatchewan, and they show that the average subscription was approximately $168 per loan. This indicates that the bonds were bought chiefly by people in the lower income groups. The people who are selling these bonds are telling the farmers to defer their purchases of machinery until after the war and to invest their money in bonds so that when the war is over they will be able to buy the machinery they need. That is the consideration under which a great number of these bonds are being purchased, but unless some further guarantee is given we may again be in the position in which we found ourselves in 1920. At that time certain people in whose interest it was to see that these bonds came down in price were able to bring them down. We should see that that condition does not prevail again and that no profits are made out of the savings of the small purchaser of victory bonds.
It is not enough for the government to say that things are different now, that we have a Bank of Canada which we did not have in 1919 and 1920. It is true that we have a Bank of Canada and that the government have more control over the financial structure of this country than they had at that time, but having that control I think they should give some assurance to the public that they will use it to see that these bonds remain at par. They are the ones who can do this. The people of Canada are willing to contribute and they will contribute if they are given some assurance.
I have a letter from a man who is at present in a sanatorium. He had sold his farm and

Supply-War Loans
wished to invest his money in bonds. He called in a bond salesman and asked if he could guarantee that when, as he anticipated, he left the sanatorium in the course of a couple of years, he would get one hundred cents on the dollar. He was told that if the war continued fdr two or three' years he would get one hundred cents on the dollar, but if the war should end and the old law of supply and demand should again operate and people in the small income groups should sell their bonds in order to reestablish themselves, inevitably the bonds would go below par. As a result, this man did not invest his money in bonds.
I am sure that if the government would come out with a definite statement that these bonds are not to be allowed to go below par, they would find it much easier to float another war loan. I urge upon them that they take this action immediately.


Major James William Coldwell: Mr. Speaker, I should like to endorse everything the hon. member for Melfort (Mr. Wright) has said, particularly in view of the fact that an insidious campaign is going on in some parts of this country to the effect that should there be a change in government these bonds will not be worth anything. I agree that this government might be changed for a still more reactionary one and then the bonds would be worth much less when the war is over than they are now. That is what will happen if the present economic system remains undirected and uncontrolled in every particular when the war is over.
It seems to me that it would be in the interests of the nation if when we ask for support for the victory loan, particularly from the smaller investors, we make provision for the handling of victory bonds during the first two or three years after the war in such a way that the smaller investor who wants to realize on them to build a home or buy furniture, machinery and so on, will be assured of geting one hundred cents on the dollar. The men and women of Canada who have invested in bonds are entitled to such an assurance. Whenever I have appealed to the people of Canada to put their money into bonds-I shall be glad to do this again as a public duty -I have said to them, and I repeat it to-day, that when they are asked to relinquish their savings for this purpose, especially those who have saved and planned in order to buy bonds because they consider it a patriotic duty, they deserve the guarantee that they will receive one hundred cents on the dollar when they cash them in. I appeal to the Prime Minister and the government to give consideration to this plea.


Thomas Reid: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) has said that there is an insidious campaign going on in some parts of the country. May I say to him that in the district from which I come people have been disposing of their bonds, not because there is an insidious campaign by anyone but because of the propaganda of the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation that they would take over everything and are against profits. The best guarantee that the people of this country can get that their bonds will be good is to reelect the present government.


Gordon Graydon: Mr. Speaker, I am not able on this most unusual occasion to agree with the hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Reid). The solution he has in mind is to choose between two evils, and perhaps he regards my hon. friends to the left as the lesser of the two evils.
With regard to the speech just given by my hon. friend to my left, may I saj'' that I regard it as being in the nature of propaganda which has been abroad for some considerable time. What I desire to say to my hon. friends is not by way of supporting the government but rather to refer to a situation which I think ought to be shown up to the people of Canada. The best guarantee we can have that the bonds of Canada will be good after the war is over is to see that we have full employment and maximum production and that the full resources of Canada are put to work. I think it is generally agreed in Canada that that must be done when this war is over. When we have accomplished that-it can be done and it will be done-we shall have answered my hon. friends to my left who are taking the usual defeatist attitude with respect to the whole problem which faces us after the war is over. They talk about rationing scarcity and guaranteeing minimums, but our job is to see that maximums are provided for the people of Canada. If the proper course is followed, not only will the bondholders be guaranteed a minimum of one dollar for each dollar invested, but I am hopeful that with the increase of opportunities and prosperity in Canada the men and women who hold these bonds will receive a premium on every one of them. We have no right as Canadian citizens to think that any other condition will exist when this war is over.


Mr. ANGUS MacINNIS (Vancouver East):: The hon. member for Melfort (Mr. Wright) has made out a good case for the point he raised. We have had a nice propagandist speech by the leader of the opposition (Mr. Graydon). It is always said that this group
Supply-War Loans

is carrying on propaganda, but during the present session the leader of the opposition has never risen in his place without making a propagandist speech. I wish to say to him that there is no use in telling the people of Canada what is going to happen when this war is over.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The C.C.F. has been doing it right along.


Angus MacInnis: Wait until I finish. The people of Canada know what you did after the last war. The people of Canada know the promise made in 1930 by the leader of the Conservative party.


Gordon Graydon: You are promising now.


Angus MacInnis: Wait a minute. He said: We will end unemployment or perish in the attempt. They perished. They perished because they tried to end unemployment under the system that created unemployment. Because they were going to end unemployment in that way, they perished. We are making no bones about it. We are learning that unemployment cannot be ended under the present system. The only way you can end unemployment under capitalism is by making a war. You ended unemployment between 1914 . and 1918, but you had unemployment again as soon as the war was over and you had it almost continuously from then on until the present war began.


Mr. HOMUTH:: Oh no.


Angus MacInnis: The facts are against my hon. friend. Possibly he was not unemployed. But was there not unemployment between 1929 and 1939?


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Yes, but was there not unemployment between 1922 and 1929?


Angus MacInnis: Yes, lots of it. Ask those who were in office at the time. Perhaps my hon. friend has never heard about the famous five-cent piece speech.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: We heard about it.


Angus MacInnis: That incident arose at a time when the provinces needed assistance because of unemployment and other conditions and the federal government of the day was not prepared to give it to them.
The question the member for Melfort raised is this. We are asking the people of this country to invest their savings in bonds- invest, remember. It may be that we shall be met within a short time with the conditions that prevailed in the thirties, or yes, in the twenties. The price of bonds may fall and as prices fall people will rush to dispose of their bonds. What we are asking is this: since the
[Mr. MacJnnin.l
government will pay one hundred cents on the dollar on these bonds at maturity, there is no reason in the world why they should not give the assurance now that they will protect the small investor by paying one hundred cents on the dollar if he has to dispose of his bonds at any time before maturity. It would not cost the government of this country anything, because when the bonds mature they will pay them off at one hundred cents on the dollar anyway. I am satisfied that the member for Melfort has raised a pertinent and important question, not one that should be met with sneers and hilarity in this house. People who have at heart the interests of the working man and the working woman-small investors-should realize that once they lose their jobs they are only two or three weeks away from the breadline. These are the people we should protect.


Gordon Graydon: The hon. member has no monopoly of interest in the working man to make him his champion.


Mr. J. H. BLACKMORE (Lethbridge):: Mr. Speaker, I believe the raising of this question in the house is timely. It is fitting that we should call on the leader of the opposition (Mr. Graydon) to tell the house at the earliest opportunity how the Progressive Conservatives, if they came into power, would maintain total use and total employment. In the light of the tragic failure of the Conservatives between 1930 and 1935, they need to show just in what respects they have changed their policy to guarantee total use and total employment. It is utter nonsense talking about what they are going to do unless they show how that intention is to be realized.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: We have not the same winter as we had last year, have we?


John Horne Blackmore: No, but you have a whole lot of the same brains in the Conservative party, and thus far I have not seen any evidence of any different brains or of any different use of the old brains. I think the real problem which the Liberals have is to show the house and the people that they really do know how to manage the economy of this country so that they can maintain the value of its bonds at par. The problem which faces the C.C.F. is not so much to raise questions like this as it is to show the country that they know how to manage the economy of the country. We hear much talk about its being necessary only to change the system in order to achieve total employment and total use. I agree with that. But the change must be the correct change. When the C.C.F. succeed in showing us how merely

Supply-War Loans
changing to government ownership of industry is going to guarantee the total use of Canada'6 natural resources and the total employment of Canada's people, that party will be in a far stronger position.
The hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Maclnnis), with whom I have no particular quarrel, has asserted that so long as capitalism continues it will be impossible to achieve total use and total employment. I point out that the all-important thing is to provide markets internally. If purchasing power can be supplied to the people to enable them to buy a sufficient amount of the products that industry stands ready to turn out, we shall be able to employ at home, our full resources, both human and material. Until that is done, it will matter not who owns the industries. I do believe it. would be an excellent thing for this house to take a few hours off, several times before the end of this session, to canvass with the greatest of care and examine with the most minute scrupulousness just exactly what we need to do to be able to guarantee security after the war is over.


Victor Quelch: Mr. Speaker, I think the best guarantee we can have that the country's bonds will maintain their value is a guarantee that the national income will be maintained at its present level. When that is done there will be no need for people to sell their bonds because then they will be receiving wages to enable them to maintain a decent standard of living. If it is the intention of the government that the national income shall be maintained at its present level, I do not think anybody would suggest that it is not within the power of the government to secure that. The Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King), on the declaration of war, said that no financial restrictions would be allowed to impede the war effort. Is the Prime Minister prepared to make a declaration that no financial restrictions will be allowed to impede our peace-time effort, and that the only limits to the national income will be the ability of the people to produce in order to maintain the national income? I think it would be a very good thing for the country at large if at this time the Prime Minister in no uncertain way would declare that no financial restrictions are to be allowed to impede the success of the post war era; that whatever money is required to maintain the fullest development of our resources will be. forthcoming.
There is a reason why there is fear in people's minds, and it is this. When Doctor James was speaking before the senate he said
that after the war we would have to adopt a new budget philosophy. He said we might have to be prepared to increase the national debt every year for the next hundred years. The only exception I take to that statement is this: why say a hundred years? Why not be frank and say that as long as we are operating under this system the national debt will hhve to increase for ever?
On the other hand the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley) has taken a different stand. He brought in a return last year in which he stated that the national debt could be paid off, and that the government would probably introduce a scientific scheme under which the national debt would be paid. What does that mean? If we are going to introduce a scientific scheme to pay off the national debt, you must have not only a balanced budget but a budget with a surplus in order to pay off the debt. There you have the adviser on reconstruction saying that you are going to increase your national debt every year for a hundred years, while on the other hand the Minister of Finance is saying that you are not going to increase your national debt, but that you are going to have a budget surplus and pay off your national debt.
I think we all realize that if we are to have again a period similar to that from 1935 to 1939, when vre had a minister of finance who deliberately set himself to curtail expenses in order to have a balanced budget, very soon after the war we shall go back into the depths of depression, destroy the confidence of the people, and have unemployment increasing. If unemployment increases, people who hold small bonds w-ill start to cash them, and the minute they begin to do so the value will depreciate. It is high time that we had a declaration from the Prime Minister assuring this country that whatever money is necessary to develop to the fullest extent the resources of this country after the war will be forthcoming.


Mr. G. G. McGEER (Vancouver-Burrard):: Mr. Speaker, I had thought during the period since war was declared, those in a minority like myself who hold strong views on certain reforms would be well advised to defer the pushing of them forward until the greater and more immediate task of defeating the enemy should be accomplished. I have been accused on a good many occasions of failing to follow the course of reform which started before the banking and commerce committee of 1934, and which at times I am afraid I followed a little too vigorously, until the Bank of Canada became a publicly owned, nationally administered institution. That was a great step
Supply-War Loans

towards finding solutions of all of our supply-problems, but I still believe that we have to go much farther and nationalize the policy of the Bank of Canada; change it from a filling station to the chartered banks into an institution of national service that will truly accomplish the purpose of issuing national currency and national credit in terms of public need and not in terms of private gain.
I rise, Mr. Speaker, solely for the purpose of drawing to the attention of my colleagues in this house a document which I believe is probably the most significant and far-reaching that has been published in Canada this year. It is the report for 1943 of the governor of the Bank of Canada. I believe it is important because, if you will take the time to read the preamble of the Bank of Canada Act, you will find that it is established as a public utility charged with the responsibility of sustaining and advancing and expanding and regulating the economic life of the government and the people of this nation. Now, what Mr. Towers has to say, from the position which he holds and the access which he alone has to the information available, should make any pronouncement by him one of the utmost importance not only to parliament but to everyone in the dominion. Let me deal with just one or two of these statements.
At page 5 you will find a statement of the change in our national debt situation. He points out that our national debt from August 31, 1939, has risen from $4,693,000,000 to $11,-
302,000,000 on December 1, 1943. That is the federal debt only. It shows an increase of $6,609,000,000, and carries with it an increase in interest charges from S169,000,000 to $304,000,000 a year. Later in the report Mr. Towers attempts to sweeten that interest charge of $304,000,000 by pointing out that we might consider it reduced by offsetting the earnings of the foreign exchange control board, earnings of the Bank of Canada, and earnings of such institutions as our national harbours. But no matter what you set off against it, the fact is that the interest charge has been increased to $304,000,000 a year, which means that over the next decade the taxpayers including the men who are fighting and the men who are working to win this war and the youth of to-day must find $3,040,000,000 for interest charges alone.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No.


Gerald Grattan McGeer: In a decade, I said. Yes, if people would think in terms of tens of years when they think of interest they would probably be more concerned about its ultimate consequences.

What does Mr. Towers say about that debt situation? On page 11 of the report he says:
I do not wish to suggest that public debt could be increased at the present rate for an indefinite period without placing intolerable strain on our economy. I do feel, however, that the war debt, and the increases which will inevitably take place for a time after the war ends, can be handled without serious embarrassment.
Neither Mr. Towers nor any other man alive to-day can tell when this war is going to end or what the ultimate cost may be. I believe we have every reason to be confident that victory is certain. Certainly the war power of Germany is declining, while the war power of the united nations is steadily advancing. But no one can be certain as to when Germany can be brought to unconditional surrender, if this war is to be prosecuted with a due regard for the unnecessary sacrifice of the lives and the suffering of the men in our own fighting forces. I believe that in the Pacific the Americans are successfully achieving what the Germans hoped and failed to do to the British isles. I believe that slowly but surely the American fleet and air power of the Pacific are destroying the lines of sea transport of the Japanese people, without which the Japanese cannot survive. But again no one can tell how soon or at what cost that end can be finally achieved. Certainly as we look at the future we know that this war is not going to end with an armistice and treaties of peace. On the contrary, it is going to end with armies of occupation. Reparations are not in the offing. The reestablishment and maintenance of order and the reconstruction of a world that has been bathed in the flames of devastation are to be a part of the cost of victory. How then can the governor of the Bank of Canada give any assurance that a debt unknown can be carried without embarrassment? Already the debt load of this war is placing an intolerable strain upon the economy of the nation.
There is one other feature in connection with that phase of our reconstruction that we all should keep in mind, and that is that during the last war there were accumulations of cash reserve. We have imposed a policy of taxation during this war deliberately designed to take away from the people, from business organizations, all forms of profit. That too will place a heavier strain upon the exchequer of national, provincial and municipal governments in the reconstruction period.
In addition to that, our municipalities and provinces, with their limited revenues, although they have some reserves accumulated from deferred maintenance and income from war

Supply-War Loans
expenditures, are not in as good a position to expand their debts as they were after the last war ended. What does Mr. Towers say about all this? He reviews, as every man who thinks on the subject at all must do, the problems of demobilization and reconstruction. The men and the women to be demobilized from our fighting forces are not of the same type that came back from the last war. Our air force is made up very largely, if not almost entirely, in the flying forces, of men of the officer and non-commissioned officer class, and the ground forces are men who are highly-trained and highly-skilled artisans and mechanics. In our navy the same problem, probably not so intense, is to be found, while our armed forces are men largely trained in the skill of operating highly mechanized organizations. All these forces have had their standards of living in the service greatly raised above what they were during the last war. It is not going to be as easy to find the kind of employment that will be acceptable to them as it was at the end of the last war, and the problem is infinitely greater.
We have also the problem of an industrial army who have found the highest standards of pay and the best working conditions in the most modern factories. Hundreds of thousands of them will not only be looking for employment of a similar kind but will be unhappy if they have to move down into some category of employment that is inferior. Therefore when Mr. Towers says that we can look forward to carrying our war debt and the postwar costs and costs of reconstruction without embarrassment and without placing an intolerable strain upon the economy of our nation, he is moving in the realm not of factual statement but of purely theoretical speculation. Mr. Towers, however, takes that situation and leaves it upon the doorstep of the government, upon the doorstep of parliament, because in his conclusion this is what he says:
The adjustments required will clearly be of unprecedented magnitude, and bold planning on the part of labour, farm and business organizations as well as the governments is urgently needed.
Now when the governor of the Bank of Canada tells this government and this parliament and the people of the Dominion of Canada that they face adjustments of unprecedented magnitude and that bold planning is urgently required, be makes a statement which I believe we in this House of Commons cannot ignore and should not delay in acting upon.
I do not want to be a defeatist, although I may say that I do heartily subscribe to the proposition that a fair price of our bonds should be fixed and that Canadians, many of 100-60
whom, out of a pure spirit of patriotism, accumulated their savings in the form of bonds, should not be the victims of the discount market when the war ends. If the government can limit the ceiling of a man's wages the government ought to be able to guarantee him against a loss of his investment in our national securities.
There is one other thing to which I would call the attention of members of the house and of my colleagues, and that is the method of financing which we have developed, because I believe that, in owning the Bank of Canada, we have demonstrated that we have an institution of inestimable value, already proven, and one which can prove of even greater value in the difficult days that lie ahead. Yes, there are difficult days ahead, not impossible, but they are going to require the best of economic understanding, good judgment and statesmanship to see us through.
Mr. Towers at page 6 says that during 1943, Canadian deposit liabilities of the chartered banks increased by 8748,000,000. That was new money created by the chartered banks by merely writing up bank deposit entries in their books and exchanging them for interestbearing bonds. Now he says:
Total active note circulation, including Bank of Canada notes, rose by $161,000,000. making the total expansion in the volume of money, therefore, $909,000,000.
And he goes on to review some of the things the banks have acquired in the way of government securities, but he does not give us a' clear statement of what has been purchased by the chartered banks of Canada. However, he comes along with this statement:
"Cash reserves of the chartered hanks rose $82,000,000 during the year, as shown in the table on page 1. Most of the expansion was necessary in order to maintain the cash ratio position of the chartered banks in view of the $748,000,000 increase in their Canadian deposit liabilities referred to above."
What does that mean? I believe it means that the Bank of Canada has issued into circulation, which circulation eventually came into the possession of the chartared banks, $82,000,000 of Bank of Canada legal tender bills. With that $82,000,000 the banks were able to increase their deposits up to
5520.000.	000 and did increase them up to
5748.000.	000. You see what is happening. Here we have a national banking institution owned by the people of Canada, issuing Canadian legal tender as a cold subsidy to our chartered banks, and with that subsidy of cash, which is the biggest subsidy any monopoly ever received, they are manufacturing in their own books the means of buying Canadian government interest bearing bonds. Was there ever such a device and system devised and sus-

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tained by sane men for the wreck of government and the benefit of private enterprise? There you have the meaning-at least what I always thought was the meaning-of issuing currency and credit in terms of private gain. That is the fundamental basis of our whole banking system that must be changed before government, which has the constitutional right and power and responsibility of issuing currency, can move along the fields of solvency and away from the bankruptcy that this false debt claim system will continue to impose upon us.	.
We have seen the tragedy in the republic to the south of us in the last few days. We have seen a president guided by the experts of the treasury board finding upon his hands at this critical period the greatest revolt of the Congress of the United States against bureaucracy and against oligarchy that has ever been recorded. President Roosevelt is the victim of the same bad advice, the same unfortunate advice, that brought Winston Churchill to disaster when he was Chancellor of the British Exchequer from 1925 to 1929. Standing on the floor of the House of Commons in 1932 and 1936, he pointed out that he took full responsibility for the tragedies that had occurred during that period; but he said that he had acted upon the advice of the monetary experts of England, who had assured him that in the policies they proposed they were returning to reality and stability. Yes, Churchill, in his happy ability to acknowledge an error when he makes it, said: "I made a mistake. I was the last of the orthodox chancellors of the exchequer. Look upon me as the last of the Mohicans." When that kind of thing goes on disaster is certain to follow, and if we as a Liberal government find ourselves out of tune with the people of Canada to-day, it is the encroachment of financial authority over administrative responsibility that is shaking the confidence of the people not in our ability to win the war, but in our ability to sustain full employment at any other time than when we are fighting a war.	[DOT]
I hope this document, of the Bank of Canada report, will be considered by the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) and the Minister of Finance (Mr. Usley) as a document that should go at once to the banking and commerce committee; because if the governor of the Bank of Canada can warn the government of Canada, the Canadian parliament and the people of Canada that he finds that adjustments of unprecedented magnitude are required and that bold planning is urgently needed, we should have at the service of this parliament and the government all the information that Mr. Towers has to justify that statement.
[Mr. McGeer.l
Let me say to you that all the good work the committee on war expenditures is doing- it is saving a few million dollars-comes to naught when you remember that all the while the whole nation is engaged in war this false system is mulcting the nation not in millions, but in billions of dollars. No government can survive, no minister of finance can carry on under this system, and the sooner we come to a realization of what we meant in 1935 when we said we would establish a Bank of Canada and give it power, and see that the powers were enforced, to issue currency and credit in terms of public need, the better. I believe that we are close to the day when that will come about; when instead of lending our medium of exchange through the debt claim system, we shall be spending the medium of exchange required to sustain the economy of the nation in balanced proportions, free from the debt system. Then, Mr. Speaker, we shall find that debt, unpayable debt, will cease to bind the health and the freedom of the people.


Mr. A. G. SLAGHT (Parry Sound):: I have just two points to lay before the house in the discussion now proceeding. My first point is that I wish to inform the leader of' His Majesty's opposition (Mr. Graydon) that the polite exchanges as to what occurred from 1930 to 1935 and down to the present time, do not change the fact that the Bennett administration established not a national bank of Canada but a hybrid, half-baked bank, of which private enterprise controlled one-half of the shares and stock. The leader of the opposition very properly from his point of view desired to take credit for the fact that the Bennett administration established that bank.


An hon. MEMBER:: Private enterprise owned all of the shares.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: My hon. friend reminds me that private enterprise owned all of the shares. When the Liberal party fought the election of 1935 they fought it in part at least upon the declaration of the principle which my hon. friend from Yancouver-Burrard (Mr. McGeer) enunciated in his address this afternoon.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Now he says it is no good.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: My hon. friend could not have been listening.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: I was very attentive.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: My hon. friend cannot misinterpret the remarks of the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard to say that the establishment of the Bank of Canada as a wholly-

Sup-ply-War Loans
owned national institution was no good, because that hon. member made it very clear that it was the proper type of Bank of Canada that we should possess.
I remind the leader of the opposition that his colleagues of that day-I do not recall whether he was in the house or not-


Gordon Graydon: You and I came in together.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: We came in together. His colleagues of that day and his leader of that day fought the Liberal party on the question of a wholly nationalized Bank of Canada. When we came into power in 1935 my hon. friend will recall that one of the earliest acts of the government was to see to it that the bank was taken over as a wholly-owned government bank.


Gordon Graydon: It did not do very much good.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: My hon. friend does not think it did much good. I suppose he would rather have it return to the old system of a privately owned, so-called, national bank of Canada.


Gordon Graydon: But you people are trying an altogether new system now.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: Let me tell my hon. friend that it has done an immense amount of good. It has gone very far in economic reform, and it can go a step further according to my philosophy of banking. I support the request of the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard, which I feel sure will be granted, that this splendid report of Mr. Graham Towers, the governor of the Bank of Canada, dated February 10, 1944, be forthwith referred to the banking and commerce committee, so that all parties may participate in that committee and endeavour to make provision, as Mr. Towers asks us to do, for the adjustment required which will "clearly be of unprecedented magnitude and bold planning." No one can begin to plan for the future until after making adjustments which have to do with economic policy. Everyone can see that our bold planning for the future, no matter by what party it may be done nor on what particular lines it may be advocated, in the last analysis depends upon the economic system which is the foundation of our ability to employ people and to create trade relations which will deal with our surpluses, and which in fact is at the very root of our national welfare. If that be so, Mr. Speaker, let us get to work on this important problem with as little delay as possible.
I should like to deal with one other point. Let me say at once that I am wholly in favour of the suggestion that the government should guarantee the outstanding bonds at par, so that investors may not suffer loss as a result of their patriotic and saving-minded purchases of these bonds, at the instance of all of us. But let me address a word to the complaint which the leader of the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation party (Mr. Coldwell) put on record in his opening remarks. If I understood him aright he voiced the complaint that there were invidious rumours afloat-


Major James William Coldwell: "Insidious" was the
word I used.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: Well, perhaps "invidious" will pretty well describe the idea he wanted to convey to the people of Canada. He said there were invidious rumours afloat as to what would occur if the C.C.F. party took office. By that I suppose he meant rumours which cast doubt upon the ability of his administration, if he ever got to the point of forming one, and upon the value of our good Canadian bonds outstanding, now total-' ling about $8,000 million, if his party came to power. Let me make clear to him that the unrest growing in a great many quarters, not only in this country but also in the United States, as to the possibility of his party gaining power in this country, is due in large part, in my judgment, to the hon. member having gone to the United States and there making a speech or speeches which received a good deal of publicity. I am not sure whether the speech was broadcast, but I think it was delivered, in New York or Washington, or perhaps in both cities. At any rate he assured the 130,000,000 people of that great republic that he thought he saw the rising of the sun and believed there was a prospect of his party taking over the government of the Dominion of Canada in the near future, or something to that effect; I hope I have paraphrased with reasonable accuracy the statement made by my hon. friend. He also told his audience, in part at least, that the first thing his party would do when they came to power would be to nationalize the banks of Canada. To nationalize the banks means to politicalize them; that is, the ten commercial banks doing business with the public in Canada.


Major James William Coldwell: How about the Bank of Canada? Is it politicalized?


Arthur Graeme Slaght: The Bank of Canada is a national bank in the true sense; as my hon. friend well knows, it is without power or
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authority to lead money to him or to his colleagues or to any other individual or corporation in this country. So that if my hon. friend suggests that the Bank of Canada has power, as a commercial banking institution, to lend money to him or to any of his C.C.F. friends, it would indicate that he has not studied the banking system of Canada.


Mr. NOSE  WORTHY@: The Bank of Canada lends money to the private banks, and the private banks lend it to us.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: All right; the private banks lend it to individuals. By his timely interruption the hon. member for York South (Mr. Noseworthy) has emphasized the very point I am going to make. I said that the C.C.F. policy of nationalizing the private commercial banks of the country means to politicalize them; and to politicalize them as understood by my hon. friends-the hon. member for York South is very keen about it-means to "C.C.F-erize" them, nothing more or less. Let us try to visualize the picture my hon. friend painted to the people of the United States. If by chance he should come to power in Canada his first act-I think it has been placed first and foremost-would be to lock the doors of the ten chartered banks of Canada. Probably then we would find standing outside the door of one of our banks, in blue uniforms with brass buttons, the hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Maclnnis) and his absent colleague the hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr Gillis), saying, "How do you do, Mr. Customer; come in. How much would you like? What can we lend you to-day?" Oh, what a picture! A modest fellow, perhaps from up my way, would come along and say, "I am one of a group of eight or ten. We have got $10,000 together and we would like another $10,000 with which to set up a plant to cut pulpwood to be sold to the railway." I can visualize one of these two hon. gentlemen, resplendent in his uniform, saying, "Well, that is very nice of you. We want to encourage enterprise, but do you belong to the C.C.F.?" Rather shamefacedly the gentleman from my part of the country would have to say, "No; I am sorry, but I am a-"


An hon. MEMBER:: Progressive Conservative.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: Yes, a Progressive Conservative. Probably he would be told, "That is even worse than if you were a Liberal," but in any event our astute hon. friends would not, I hope, be too raw about it. They would suggest, "Just down on Sparks street is the headquarters of the C.C.F. If you have time, drop in and listen to our secretary, because he

has some wonderful ideas. Then come back to-morrow and bring your membership card, and we shall be very happy indeed to reconsider your application for a loan of $10,000 to open up Canadian industry."
Mr. MacINNIS They do that in connection with the roads now; so why not in connection with the banks? You cannot get a job on the roads in British Columbia without a membership card in the Liberal party.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: If it were not unparliamentary to say so, I would tell my hon. friend that he has made a statement which is untrue. But since it would be unparliamentary to say that, I will tell him that he has made a statement which I do not believe.


Angus MacInnis: You never looked for a job.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: The hon. members who are trying to work that out will doubtless come to an agreement before sunset.
Let me finish if I may what I am pointing out to the house. Whether the rumours are insidious or invidious, they are well founded. The programme as announced by the hon. member in the United States is that after getting the banks under their control they are going to take over the mines of Canada. They are going to C.C.F .-erize the mines and run them. They are going to take over the Canadian Pacific. Railway company and C.C.F .-erize it along with the Canadian National Railwaj's.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: And run them separately.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: My hon. friend says, "run them separately". The railway men of Canada are laughing that one off. If my hon. friend wants to know what the railway men in the great brotherhoods of Canada think about his suggestion of C.C.F.-erizing the C.P.R., all he has to do is to ask them.


Mr. NOSEWORTHY:: What about the provincial elections in Ontario?


Arthur Graeme Slaght: Here is a man who is disappointed because he is not able to lock the bank door and go in and borrow $10,000 tomorrow morning. The railway men of Canada do not want that to happen. They believe in the competition of these great railroads. If I have understood Liberal policy in the past it has been-I do not speak for my leader- that they do not propose in the present time of great disturbances to take over and nationalize the great Canadian Pacific railway.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: "Competition ever, amalgamation never."

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Arthur Graeme Slaght: My hon. friend has reminded me of a phrase. I do not know just who is the author of it.


Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: R. B. Bennett.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: We all know what happened after the great 1930-35 debacle. I was just going down the line of what was to be C.C.F.-erized. There were the banks, the gold mines, the base metal mines, the forests-


Thomas Reid: What about the House of Commons?


Arthur Graeme Slaght: The House of Commons will be here long after the doctrine of the leader of the C.C.F. party is forgotten. They intend to control all bonds and all insurance companies with their millions of policyholders. Who are these God-given economists and industrialists in the C.C.F. party on the other side who are to be placed in charge of these great and important assets of this young country? What records have they? They may be estimable men in their own callings, but are they to replace the boards of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company and the ten chartered banks of Canada? Are they to take over our great forests and pulpmills? Are they to develop and run these great industries from the top? Nothing could be as disastrous to this young country as having any such a possibility happen to us.


Joseph William Noseworthy: There is still the genius of the hon. member for Parry Sound.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: My hon. friend is still smarting under the disappointment of not being able to get into that bank. Imagine what a pot of gold the C.C.F. would have with which to run their elections! The hon. member for York South would say, "I have a large constituency, boys; I have to have twice as much as the hon. member for Rose-town-Biggar." These are the men who are proposing to run our banks and railways. It is not a matter for levity and the people of Canada do not propose to laugh it off.


Mr. COLD  WELL@: We have been enjoying it.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: My hon. friend has been enjoying it because he knows the truth is always enjoyable. My hon. friend goes into the United States and announces that they intend to take over the great banking system of this country, practically all industry and the insurance companies in which there are millions, yes, more than a billion dollars invested by the people of the United States. He goes over there and tells them, "I will lock the doors of the banks, of the gold mines, of the industries in which your money is invested
the minute we get into power, and I come here to tell you to-night that I think we shall get there fairly soon."


Gordon Graydon: How long ago was that?


Arthur Graeme Slaght: My hon. friend will tell you that it was within three months.


Gordon Graydon: Quite a change since then.


Major James William Coldwell: I do not recognize that speech at all.


Angus MacInnis: He had a bad dream.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: Even if my hon. friend went back on his announced policy; even if he saw the error of his ways-this is all hypothecated upon a dream because they are never going to be in power; I accept my hon. friend's suggestion and regard the possibility of their being in power as a dream-nevertheless the fact remains that the people of the United States have taken his bold assertion rather seriously. I want to tell my hon. friend that when he speaks of insidious or invidious rumours nobody has done as much harm to future investments in this country by our friends in the United States than has the leader of the C.C.F. party by going into that republic and laying bare the possibility of Canada being turned over to an inexperienced group of socialists.


Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) :: Mr. Speaker, I was not at all surprised when the hon. member for Melfort (Mr. Wright) rose upon the motion of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Usley) that the house go into the committee of supply and raised the question that he did, because during the latter part of last summer, when I was travelling through the northern part of Saskatchewan, I heard one of these insidious rumours which the leader of the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation party has mentioned. The rumour was to the effect that those who were selling victory bonds in that part of the country were experiencing considerable difficulty in making sales because the people there had become convinced that the C.C.F. party was going to come into power. So I said, "What difference should that make? I do not know of anything that the C.C.F. party have said," I said, "which would warrant anyone in not buying government bonds because they are convinced that the C.C.F. party may at some time come into power. As a matter of fact I have not been invited to speak on behalf of the sale of victory bonds, but the leader of the C.C.F. has, and he has been out speaking on behalf of those who were trying to sell 'C.C.F. bonds-victory bonds', I mean."
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Gordon Graydon: You would need a floor under C.C.F. bonds.


James Garfield Gardiner: Judging from some of the speeches that were made, I am not at all sure that they did not even sell a few C.C.F. bonds too.
I began to inquire where that rumour started, that people were convinced that if the C.C.F. party attained power in Canada they would not acknowledge victory bonds at their full value, and I had presented to me from an individual in that section of the country a pamphlet issued some years ago by the C.C.F. party.


An hon. MEMBER:: C.C.F.?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes. There was "C.C.F." at the top of it and "Farmer-Labour" underneath. Farmer-Labour being the provincial and C.C.F. being the federal party. This pamphlet was issued following conferences held by the party in Saskatoon and Regina in 1933 for the organization of the C.C.F. Here in the pamphlet is the item that was referred to a few moments ago by my hon. friend the member for Parry Sound (Mr. Slaght), and it is headed "Socialization of the banking, credit and financial system of the country, together with the social ownership, development, operation and control of utilities and natural resources." Then there follows a questionnaire with regard to that policy, and one of the questions asked is this:
Will interest be charged by a socialized bank?
The answer to that is;
There may be a service charge as it is obvious that all services of the state must be paid for.
The next question is:
What about victory bonds?


Major James William Coldwell: Victory bonds?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes. My hon. friend had something to do with the drafting of this document and he ought to know something of its contents. That was victory bonds of the last war.


Major James William Coldwell: Issued at 5i per cent, income tax free.


James Garfield Gardiner: The question here is:
What about victory bonds?
And the answer is:
When we set up new currency we will immediately take in the old currency and give out new currency for old. Bonds will be taken in at face value and will be discounted. As the amount of the bond increases the discount increases.
That, Mr. Speaker, is what I found to be the source of these insidious rumours that were
[Mr. Gardiner. 1
going about the country. It was not anything that the opponents of the C.C.F. had said, but something that had been written right into the official document of the party itself.


Mr. NICHOLSON:: In what year was that?


James Garfield Gardiner: In 1933, the year in which my hon. friends of the C.C.F. boast that their party came into existence. These rumours were going about the country, and, as my hon. friend the member for Parry Sound showed a few moments ago, statements that had been made in the United States and in this country have given emphasis to the rumours. I agree with the statement made by the hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Reid) a few minutes ago, that the only way we can assure the hon. member for Melfort that victory bonds sold in this war will have their full value at any time, without any discount in proportion to the size of the bond, is to make absolutely certain that there never is a C.C.F. government in this country. I have not any doubt that the people of the Dominion of Canada have made up their minds on that now, and because they have made up their minds on that, I think the hon. member for Melfort can be assured that bonds sold to the people of this country during this war will be redeemed at their par value by a government in Canada that does not believe in the national socialization of everything-and I use that term advisedly.
We have had a great deal of discussion whether national socialism is the proper term to apply to that organization. If my hon. friends of the C.C.F. do not like that name, I am not going to quarrel with them, but I would remind them of this. Only yesterday I had the privilege of reading an article in Liberty based upon a question and answer interview with the leader of the C.C.F., and the last statement in it, if I remember correctly is to the effect that what we are going to have when they get into power is "democratic socialism." Well, that is not so far removed from national socialism. That, too, had its birth in the same country. That, too, preceded national socialism in Germany.


Major James William Coldwell: In Great Britain?


James Garfield Gardiner: No, not Great Britain. There is not a man in, the Dominion of Canada who has condemned more often in my hearing and in meetings in western Canada the government of Ramsay MacDonald than the present leader of the C.C.F. party. One can go through the press of western Canada and find time after time-

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Major James William Coldwell: All owned by the Liberal
party.


James Garfield Gardiner: Not owned by the Liberal party. But the owners of the newspapers did not write the speeches of the leader of the C.C.F. party, and the record of those speeches was handed to the press by the leader of the C.C.F. party. He gloated over the fact that he did not believe in the socialism of the Ramsay MacDonald party in Great Britain because after they came into power they did not do the things he wants to do in the Dominion of Canada.


Major James William Coldwell: I have never suggested that.


James Garfield Gardiner: I am saying it because I have read the hon. member's speeches.


Major James William Coldwell: I did not like Ramsay MacDonald's union government.


James Garfield Gardiner: No, because my hon. friend did not believe in his first government.


Major James William Coldwell: Yes, I did.


James Garfield Gardiner: Nor in his second government. Which one did he agree with?


Major James William Coldwell: I disagreed with his union government, when he formed a national government in Great Britain.


James Garfield Gardiner: He formed two governments in Great Britain. My hon. friend did not agree with his first one; he did not agree with his second one, and on a future occasion I shall have the clippings here to show that. He condemned that party. Why? Because they did not nationally socialize the industry of Great Britain while they were in office. There is no doubt about that in the minds of anyone who listened to the hon. member's speeches outside this house in the years up to 1935. That was his position at that time.
But what I wish to emphasize is this. One does not need to search outside the pamphlets of the C.C.F. for the source of the rumours that have been going about western Canada to the effect that if the C.C.F. party got into power in this country they would see to it that the victory bonds-and the greater the bond the greater the discount-would be discounted. So that it seems to me that if the people of this country want their 1 onds valued at their real face value, plus interest, they should see to it that the C.C.F. is never put into power in this country.


Joseph William Noseworthy: (York South): Mr. Speaker, we have gone a considerable distance from the original speech which opened this debate. Mention has been made of
rumours, many of them. I cannot understand why either the Liberals or the Progressive Conservatives should be so much concerned about the C.C.F. when both those parties are so cocksure of victory at the next federal election. If the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation is all that those hon. gentlemen say it is, why do they waste the time of this house decrying the C.C.F.? Surely they can leave that question to the intelligence of the Canadian people.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: And how!


Joseph William Noseworthy: We are quite willing, Mr. Speaker, that it should be left to the intelligence of the Canadian people. If in their collective wisdom they choose the C.C.F. government or a Liberal or a Progressive Conservative government, that is their business. Tens of thousands of people in this country who have bought victory bonds are far more concerned about knowing whether under a Liberal or under a Progressive Conservative government they will get par value for those bonds if they are forced to sell them, when they are forced to sell them to carry out the purpose for which they bought them, the purpose for which they have been encouraged to buy them. Neither the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) nor the leader of the opposition (Mr. Graydon) has indicated in any way that a government by either party is prepared to give those buyers of bonds a guarantee that they will not be forced to sell them below par The question is not whether a C.C.F. government is to be elected or what government is to be elected. These people want to know what they will get for the bonds they are buying to-day and will be asked to buy in the next victory loan. I ask the speakers for the government or the speakers for the opposition to face that question and tell us exactly where their parties stand on that issue.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: How much would they get under the C.C.F.?


Joseph William Noseworthy: Par value.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: They would not, because the C.C.F. would consider them capitalistic and take the bonds away.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Like the hon. member for York South (Mr. Noseworthy), who has j'>st preceded me, I should like to make, a few comments on the matter which was originally raised this afternoon by the hon. member for Melfort (Mr. Wright). Since that hon. member spoke the discussion has become quite political, and we are led to believe that there is going to be much of this kind of thing during
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the present session. On future and perhaps more appropriate occasions there are statements by leaders of the present government which it might also be well to place upon the record, particularly in view of the fondness of the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) for collecting C.C.F. literature.
I was interested a while ago in listening to the emphatic speech by the hon. member for Parry Sound (Mr. Slaght). I was reminded of speeches he made last July in this house and also outside it during the latter part of the month and early in August. His speeches at that time were made with similar vigour. They seemed calculated to slay the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation, which was engaged at the time in a provincial election campaign, but apparently the slaying technique came home to roost. One wonders just what his vigour at this time will produce.
However, I should like to point out that particularly the leader of the opposition (Mr. Graydon) and the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner), in speaking on this matter, have side-stepped the essential issue which the hon. member for Melfort raised. The leader of the opposition suggested that we should not be talking about a possible decline in the value of victory bonds after the war but rather we should be expressing confidence that when these bonds mature they will be worth more than 100 per cent.


Gordon Graydon: I was going further than you people were; that is all.


Stanley Howard Knowles: We would say "hear, hear'' to that. But the leader of the opposition still failed to say whether or not he would support the idea of putting in the meantime a guarantee under these bonds that their value would not be allowed to drop below par.


Gordon Graydon: May I answer my hon. friend?


Stanley Howard Knowles: I would be very glad if the hon. gentleman would.


Gordon Graydon: I say to my hon. friend that I refuse to admit that the economy. we have after this war is over will-[DOT]


Major James William Coldwell: If the present government is in power?


Gordon Graydon: I cannot speak for them, because nobody in Canada supposes that either the hon. member's party or the Liberals are going to have anything to do with the government of this country after the war is over.
Mr, COLDWELL: But "if"?


Gordon Graydon: May I answer my hon. friend? I should like to do so, and to say

this, that in so far as we are concerned our objection to the proposal of the hon. member for Melfort (Mr. Wright) is that it presupposes that there is going to be a need for some floor under bonds. We refuse to admit such a thing. Our position is this, that we want every holder of bonds, including every "little man" in Canada, to have a premium on his bonds. We want to go further than the C.C.F.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I take it that that is the answer of the leader of the opposition, and if so, I observe that he still refuses to commit himself as to being prepared to guarantee the value of the bonds in the meantime.


Gordon Graydon: May I say to my hon. friend that if a C.C.F. government ever should come into power so that the bonds do go down, such a floor should be put under them.
Mr. KNOWLES I say further to the leader of the opposition' that, if we have this confidence that the level of production will be maintained and that there is no need for the value of bonds to drop, certainly there is no loss to be incurred by making the commitment for which we are asking. Further, we feel that to make this definite guarantee at this time would not only encourage people in the purchasing of victory bonds but would help to convince them that we in, this house are sure there will be maintenance of full employment after the war is over. On the other hand, in view of the experience of the period after the last war, when war bonds went down in value with the result that financial and investment houses profited from the situation, people cannot help feeling that the refusal to make such a commitment at the present time is simply a case of leaving the door open for the same thing to happen again if the value of these bonds does go down.
I come back to the statement I made a moment ago, that if the leader of the opposition and if the Minister of Agriculture and other members of the government are so confident that our economy will be at a high level after the war, no loss will be involved in making this commitment and we feel definitely that it should be made. We urge that not only because there will be no loss, but because of the assurance that it would give to our people. I would point out that the Minister of Agriculture-again in a vigorous and interesting speech-wandered all over the field but did not deal with the specific request which the hon. member for Melfort has brought to thp attention of this house. I hope that some other minister speaking on behalf of the government will even yet rise and give this assurance to the house and to the country. The

matter was raised quite sincerely and in a straightforward manner by the hon. member for Melfort. We feel that this is something concerning which the people of Canada deserve to be given assurance, and we deplore the way in which the issue has been side-tracked, the way in which many hon. members have wandered all over the field, the way in which no real answer has been given to this question.
I should like to say a word about the remarks of the Minister of Agriculture in connection with certain literature which he had in his hand a moment ago. I do not happen to have a copy before me, but I should like to point out that we are proposing that steps should be taken now, so as to avoid the necessity of doing what in 1933 our people in Saskatchewan felt it was necessary to do. What happened then was that victory bonds from the last war had got out of the hands of the small holders; they had taken a loss, and the bonds were now in the hands of a few holders. The C.C.F. people, or our predecessors, whoever drafted the material which the ^Minister of Agriculture has in his hands, felt that it was high time that the profits which a few people had made at that time should be brought to a halt; and it is our contention that we should avoid that kind of a situation arising again, by making it clear now that the victory bonds which people are purchasing in this war will not deteriorate in value so far as the small purchasers are concerned. It has already been pointed out that since the government guarantees the value of these bonds at maturity, and we emphasize that point, there is no loss to be incurred by the government in guaranteeing the value of the bonds at all times. That may raise in someone's mind the obvious question: if there is no loss to the government, why is there so much opposition to our request? The answer is that if the stand we are asking for is taken by the government it will shut the door to many financial and investment houses, against the making of huge profits from the buying of these bonds if they depreciate in value after the war. We feel that this is a step that should be taken. After all, these are the savings of the people, given for the specific purpose of victory, given also with the suggestion that they might have this money on hand for rehabilitation purposes after the war. We feel, therefore, that our people should not be exploited by leaving the door open in this way to financial and' investment houses.
I have done what I could to bring the discussion back to the request which the hon. member for Melfort submitted to the house, which we feel is a reasonable one and which
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we know is of concern to thousands of workers, farmers and soldiers throughout the country. I hope that even yet a minister or a parliamentary assistant, speaking on behalf of the government, will give us the assurance for which we ask.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I regret the unavoidable absence at the moment of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Usley), and on his behalf I should like to make a few observations. The question raised by the hon. member for Melfort (Mr. Wright) is not a new question. The hon. member for Yorlcton (Mr. Castleden) raised it last year and the minister answered him fully at that time. I have no doubt the question will come up again.
What we should bear in mind is this. The hon. member for Melfort asks that the government should guarantee every holder of a victory bond that he will be able at any time to sell that bond for 100 cents on the dollar.
I suggest that we should remember what the government does when it issues bonds. It is issuing bonds for five, ten and fifteen years, paying a certain rate of interest in consideration of the fact that the money is lent for that term. It guarantees that at maturity of that term the holder will receive 100 cents on the dollar.
I do not intend to go into the pros and cons of the hon. gentleman's suggestion except to say that if that suggestion were accepted it would mean that there would be no difference between the rate of interest which the government would pay for thirty days or sixty days and the rate on money which it might borrow for ten, fifteen or twenty years.
As I say, this question has been fully discussed before. The Minister of Finance gave a full explanation as to why the government could not agree with the suggestion made by the hon. member for Yorkton last year, and I would not think his views would have changed in the meantime.
So much for the suggestion that the government should now guarantee the holder of every bond 100 cents on the dollar at any time. Perhaps we are taking too much for granted in assuming that the holder will not get it. A good many of these bonds now sell at a premium. They are widely distributed among a large number of small holders, far more than ever before, and I believe that the very fact of that wide distribution will make for stability in the price of these bonds on the open market during and after the war.


Mr. CASTLEDEN:: It did not help the last time.
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Douglas Charles Abbott: That is a long time ago and a different government was in power.


Gordon Graydon: You should find a better reason than that.


Douglas Charles Abbott: The hon. member ranged far afield. The hon. member for Vancouver-Bur-rard (Mr. McGeer), in his usual forceful and eloquent manner, has put forward his well-known views on monetary policy. I do not think the house will expect me now to discuss those views. He says that the government is in receipt of bad advice and operates under a bad system. I have no doubt full opportunity will be afforded for discussing his particular views on financial matters, both in other debates in this house and before the banking and commerce committee.
I do not know that there is anything else that I have to add. The Minister of National Defence (Mr. Ralston) suggests that no doubt Mr. Graham Towers, the governor of the Bank of Canada, will be before the banking and commerce committee, and that reminds me of one point which the hon. member for Van-couver-Burrard made. If I understood him correctly he rather criticized Mr. Towers for referring, in the annual report of the bank, to the fact that adjustments of unprecedented magnitude will have to be made after the war. That would not cause me much surprise.
Almost any of us would agree that that was a fair statement of what will have to be done. I cannot see that Mr. Towers or anybody else should be severely criticized for such a statement in a bank report.


John Ritchie MacNicol: How does my hon. friend account for the fact that the fourth and fifth victory loan bonds were selling on the Toronto stock exchange on Saturday below par?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I am not aware of the fact that they were, but I venture to say it must have been a very small fraction below par.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It is a small fraction. The bid on the fourth victory loan was 99J and the bid on the fifth victory loan was 99J.


Douglas Charles Abbott: That is the ordinary fluctuation from day to day, supply and . demand. I would not think that was a permanent condition.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Bradette in the chair.
DEPARTMENT OF PENSIONS AND NATIONAL HEALTH 195. Departmental administration, $161,172.
Hon. IAN A. MACKENZIE (Minister of Pensions and National Health): The item stands.
Item stands.



POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT

[Stage Direction]
Service-
2Jf2. Departmental administration, $699,070.
Hon. W. P. MULOCK (Postmaster General) :: Mr. Chairman, I wish to take this opportunity to make a statement in regard to mail to troops overseas.
During the past six or eight weeks I have received a number of letters complaining of delay and non-delivery of mails to and from members of the Canadian armed forces overseas. Items and editorials have also appeared in the daily press.
In dealing with this matter, I can assure you that I have a sympathetic appreciation and understanding of the anxiety of parents, relatives and friends, in this country when they fail to receive news from overseas or when they hear that the letters and parcels which they have sent overseas have not arrived.
Knowing how important the receipt of mail is from a standpoint of morale, I can assure you that, despite delays which have occurred, advantage has been, and will be taken, of every means at our disposal to improve the service.
That there have been delays there is no doubt, but not delays which could be avoided. The time taken, which to anxious relatives and friends may seem unreasonable, is due to three more or less unavoidable causes:-
(1)	the lack of transport, both air and surface, on account of the imperative and incessant requirements for vital operations,
(2)	adverse transatlantic weather usually prevalent in the winter months,
(3)	the necessary movement of personnel from unit to unit and location to location to meet the exigencies of active operations.
Last fall there were indications that shipping space for the transportation of mails overseas was becoming more difficult to obtain as some of the larger ships which had been used were being moved from the Canadian route for other purposes.
We had counted on being able to overtake this difficulty by the transmission of a large portion of the letter mails from Canada to the United Kingdom by air. Unfortunately, the aircraft which we had hoped would be available did not materialize due to the prior demands of machines for combat purposes.
On October 7 a meeting took place between the Minister of National Defence, the minister for air and myself, together with representatives of the Post Office Department and the Canadian armed forces postal services.

Supply-Post Office
As a result of personal representations made by the Minister of National Defence for Air, six Fortress aircraft were obtained from the United States to be utilized for the transportation of mails for the forces. These machines were not new but had been used in varying ' degrees for operation and training purposes.
A Royal Canadian Air Force squadron was created to operate the mail service from Canada to the United Kingdom and on to the Mediterranean area, and return.
I should like to make it clear at this point that this service was supplementary to the facilities which existed, and despite deiays which have occurred the fact emerges that this Canadian air service has carried to the United Kingdom and the Mediterranean theatre, and return, thousands of pounds of letters which would otherwise have been dispatched by surface ships.
An air service of this nature would ordinarily not have been inaugurated without an extended period of experimental flights to seek out the handicaps and difficulties and apply the remedies before the actual service flights commenced.
In our desire to take advantage of every possible means of expediting delivery, it' was decided to commence the service without these usual tests and to iron out the difficulties as we went along. This we have done. Difficulties have been encountered, many of them, but I believe that I can confidently say that most of these difficulties are now behind us and that, with a reasonable break in the weather, noticeable improvements will be effected.
It must, however, be borne in mind that war-time transport cannot be compared with that enjoyed in peace times. The handicaps and the obstacles are many. Delays will occur, due chiefly to the exigencies of war. We shall, however, continue, as we have in the past, to overlook no opportunity and to take advantage of every facility to improve the service to the men and women serving overseas.
So that you will have some idea of the reasons for the delays which have occurred and the average times which it takes to handle and transport mails from Canada to the overseas forces under present conditions, I am going to place on record data taken from actual mail service operations from Canada to the United Kingdom and the Mediterranean theatre. Similar times and conditions also apply to mails moving westbound.
Airgraphs and Armed Forces Air Letters Canada to United Kingdom
Eastbound-Carried by Royal Air Force Transport Command.
Average time from point of mailing in Canada to delivery in England-
Army	 10 days
R.C.A.F	 13 days
Date of mailing Air transport to base post office Handling and sortation into unit packages at base P.O.
Transit to airport and awaiting take off (average 2 days)
Air transit Canada to United Kingdom
Rail transport from airport in U.K.
to Canadian overseas postal depot Sorting into bags and dispatch to railhead serving unit Unloading at railhead, transport to supply point, thence to unit Arrival at unit for delivery
Letters for personnel in the R.CA..F., especially those at R.A.F. stations, take on an average 3 days longer as items are routed through the postal directory for location and delivery is effected through United Kingdom civilian postal channels 13th day
Airgraphs and armed forces air letters are for the present carried eastbound by the planes of the R.A.F. transport command. In a westerly direction they are carried by the Trans-Canada Air Lines or by the aircraft of the R.CA.F. transport command. Occasionally these items have been carried for us by planes of the United States transport command.
An idea of the frequency of this service east-bound can be gathered from the fact that twelve crossings were made in November, nine in December and ten in January, which averages a crossing every three days.
The transit time from the base post office until the mails arrive in the United Kingdom varies from three to ten days. Generally speaking, an armed forces air letter mailed in Canada is delivered to the addressee in the United Kingdom in anywhere between six to fifteen days after posting. There have been occasions when letters have been delivered in a shorter time. There are also cases where they have taken longer, but this is usually due to the fact that the items had to be redirected before delivery could be effected.
The number of armed forces air letters carried across the Atlantic has now reached one and a half million per month.
Airgraphs normally take four or five days longer due to photographing in Canada before dispatch and the reproduction of the message in the United Kingdom on arrival. Occasionally the time taken is longer when the arrival in the United Kingdom coincides with a heavy volume of airgraphs received from the British forces overseas which occasionally number several million.
Letters for personnel in the R.C.A.F. cannot be delivered to units in the same way as letters for army units. This is due to the frequent changes in location of squadrons
1st day 2nd day
3rd day
5th day
6th day
7th. daj
8th day
9th day 10th day
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and individuals. It has been found by experience that in most cases delays are reduced if items are first passed through the R.CAJ'. postal records.


Gordon Graydon: Does the airgraph system save much space?


William Pate Mulock: Oh, yes, a great deal of space.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: It
takes eight days longer for delivery.


William Pate Mulock: It takes time to have them photographed in the first place. They formerly had to be sent to the United States to be produced, but they are now photographed in Toronto.


Gordon Graydon: Some are difficult to read. I have one in front of me now.


William Pate Mulock: That is one you received?


Gordon Graydon: Yes.


George Hugh Castleden: Have there been any losses of airgraphs in transit in recent months?


William Pate Mulock: Not between here and the United Kingdom.


George Hugh Castleden: But between here and the Mediterranean?


Gordon Graydon: Yes.


William Pate Mulock: Yes. The next one I should like to deal with is airgraphs and armed forces air letters-Canada to Mediterranean.


Mr. COLD  WELL@: Before the minister leaves the first item, I have been keeping rather careful track of the blue letters I have been receiving, and quite often they have taken three weeks or a month and sometimes longer.


William Pate Mulock: From England?


Major James William Coldwell: ifes.


William Pate Mulock: That is quite possible on the westbound trip. They have run into some Very bad delays on account of weather.


Major James William Coldwell: That has been the case in December, January and this month. I received one to-day -which took sixteen days; that was the quickest of all.


William Pate Mulock: Flying conditions have been very bad.
I wish to deal now, as I said, with airgraphs and armed forces air letters to the Mediterranean. Eastbound they are dispatched by R.A.F. transport command aircraft to the United Kingdom, thence by the Royal Canadian Air Force, the Royal Air Force or United States aircraft, or any other on which space to the Mediterranean theatre can be obtained. The average time of an air letter from Canada to the airport in the

United Kingdom is seven days. The average wait for aircraft space in the United Kingdom is eight days, bringing us to the fifteenth day. Delays on account of weather have averaged four days, making it the nineteenth day. Transit time from the United Kingdom to the Mediterranean theatre average two days, making it the twenty-first day. Arrival at airport, sortation and road transport to base takes two days, bringing it to the twenty-third day. Air transport to formation postal unit and arrival at unit for delivery brings it to the twenty-fourth day. Airgraphs would take approximately four to six days longer, on account of the processing at both ends of the journey, which would make it the thirtieth day.
Air letters and airgraphs from the United Kingdom to the Mediterranean theatre were formerly carried on any aircraft on which there was available space. Usually the planes of the RA.F. transport command and the United States transport command were used. Recently the mails have been carried by the R.C.A.F. transport command, and nine round trips have been made since the first trip which left the United Kingdom on Christmas Day, 1943. As a result of the experience gained through the initial trips it was decided, in addition to the present equipment, to base a lighter type of transport aircraft at a western Mediterranean airport. This will permit a round trip service to the Mediterranean circuit every five days and oft.ener if the quantity of mail justifies. It is confidently expected that this will reduce the elapsed time by several days. The first of these planes has already arrived at the airport and the improved service will go into operation in the very near future. With the advent of improved weather the delays will be further reduced by possibly two or three days and, as the lighter aircraft will be able to land closer to the point where the postal base is located, time now taken up by extended road transport will be eliminated.
Changes of this kind, however, are not effected overnight. They are the result of many negotiations and preliminaries. First, planes must be obtained, having regard to the needs of combat operations and, further, aircraft cannot go rushing into zones of operations without previous measures being taken in regard to control, security and navigation. That this improved service is now ready to operate speaks for itself. I conservatively estimate that in a short while it will effect a saving in time of up to ten days between Canada and the Mediterranean theatre, weather permitting.

Supply-Post Office
The average times which I have just read to you are for mails addressed to a definite unit address. When mails are addressed to reinforcement units and have to pass through the directory service the time taken is longer, as letters have to be routed through the postal tracing section for direction, sometimes on several occasions, and this all takes time.
As regards airgraphs for Italy, at the present time the original messages have to be sent to North Africa to be processed. Whenever possible the messages are sent by air but occasionally it happens that there is no air lift available and thus extra time is taken due to the four or five days which are consumed by surface transport. Consideration is being given to the establishment of a processing station on the Italian mainland and this will be done as soon as circumstances permit. It will result in a reduction in the time required for the transmission of this class of correspondence.
Next I should like to deal with surface letters to the Canadian armed forces in the United Kingdom. The average transit time is as follows:
Example-Letter mailed in central Canada to member of Canadian armed forces in United Kingdom.
Letter posted and sorted in local post office and despatched by rail to base post office
Arrival at base post office, Ottawa Sorted and prepared for dispatch Average time waiting for space on transport (five days)
Railway transport to port of loading (two days)
Loading on steamer and awaiting departure (three days)
Transatlantic crossing, fast ship-no convoy, or fast convoy (average ten days)
Docking,, unloading and loading in mail cars at port in United Kingdom (two days)
Rail transit to Canadian Postal Corps railhead, sortation and dispatch To Unit railhead, thence to unit supply point
Arrival at unit for delivery
1st day
4th day 5th day
10th day
12th day
15th day
25th day
27th day
28th day
20th day 30th day
During the calendar year 1943, 661,904 pounds of letters were dispatched overseas. This amounts . to approximately 31,500,000 items. With a few exceptions, due to causes beyond - our control, practically all of these letters have been delivered to the addressees-True, delays have occurred. Time has been taken up by redirections, and no doubt occasional errors have been made in individual cases but the percentage of correspondence undeliverable is a very small portion of 1 per cent.
Most of the surface letters have been transported by surface ships but 39,000 pounds of surface letters have been carried by planes
operated by the R.C.A.F. or Trans-Canada Air Lines. This has expedited delivery by anywhere from two or three days to two weeks. These letters have been carried by air although prepaid for surface transport.
The transit times which I gave are for normal crossings. Occasions have arisen when ships have had to put back to port. Sometimes the same ship has returned more than once and the time required is increased accordingly. For example, right at the present moment there is one ship which was loaded with mails in the first days of January. It had to put back to port and has not yet reached the United Kingdom. This is not an isolated instance. I might say that the 39,000 pounds I mentioned as having been carried by air amounts to. approximately 1,560,000 letters.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock. Mr. MULOCK: Mr. Chairman, the next matter I should like to deal with is the surface letters to Canadian forces overseas in the Mediterranean area. The example is as follows:
Average transit time
Example-Letter mailed in central Canada addressed to member of unit of Canadian forces in Mediterranean theatre.
Time elapsed between posting in Canada and arrival at Canadian postal corps railhead in United Kingdom-28 days	28th day
Checking, sortation and rebagging at
Canadian overseas postal depot . 29th day Waiting space on steamer to Mediterranean area (five days)	34th day
Despatch to port in United Kingdom. loading on steamer (two days) 36th day Ship awaiting make-up of convoy for
Mediterranean (six days)	42nd day
Average time fast convoy to Mediterranean area (ten days)	52nd day
Waiting at port of arrival and unloading (three days!	55th day
From port to Canadian base post
office serving units (two days)	57th day
Road transport to formation postal
unit	58th day
Arrival at unit for delivery	59th day
Up to the inauguration of the mail service operated by the R.C.A.F. transport command, practically all surface letters were sent by surface transport.
During the eight weeks since the R.C.A.F. service has been in operation, 45,619 pounds of mail, approximately two and a quarter million letters, have been carried by air from England to the Mediterranean theatre. This has reduced the time of delivery in some cases by almost two weeks.
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Times given are for normal items addressed to definite units. The time is appreciably increased when the mail is intended for reinforcement units or for personnel who have been routed through reinforcement depots to definite units. In such cases, the mail has to pass through the postal tracing section, sometimes on two or three different occasions, and the time required is increased accordingly.
It happens from time to time that when these mails are dispatched by surface ships the ships are re-routed to a different port from that originally intended. This further complicates the mail handling and increases the time for delivery. In addition, several incidents have occurred when ships have been damaged and have had to put back to port. On other occasions they have had to enter a port en route for repairs.
At the time of the first expedition of Canadian forces to the Mediterranean area mails were frozen in the United Kingdom until the troops were well on their way to destination. This action was taken by the security authorities in the interests of the safety of the convoy. Unfortunately when the mails were eventually dispatched one of the ships carrying them was damaged by enemy action which necessitated it putting into port for repairs. This took a considerable time and created still further delay.
The next item I should like to deal with is parcels to Canadian forces overseas in transit from Canada to the United Kingdom. The example I would give covers a cigarette parcel where the order has been placed in Ontario and' it is as follows:
Order sent to tobacco company for cigarettes
Order received at tobacco company Average time taken by tobacco company to fill order and transfer to postal corps (two weeks)
Parcels sorted by C.P.C. tobacco unit into unit bags individually listed Loaded in cars and dispatched, including transit to seaport (three days)
Unloaded and stored awaiting space on steamers (seven days)
Ship awaiting make-up of convoy and transit time in slow convoy to United Kingdom (average twenty-six days)
Waiting for berth on arrival, unloading and waiting railway transportation (four days)
Railway to Canadian postal corps railhead
From C.P.C. to unit railhead Arrival at unit for delivery
Ordinary parcels (not tobacco parcels) would take approximately fourteen days less, i.e.,	46 days
During the year 1943, twenty-seven and a half million pounds of parcel post were dispatched overseas from Canada. This represents 6,930,835 parcels. Of this number 3,008,969 were tobacco parcels which are each individually listed by the Canadian postal corps before dispatch.
As far as possible parcels are shipped in direct unit bags, which means that the bag containing the parcels and the corresponding list is sealed at the base post office, Canada, and the seals are intact when delivered to the post orderly of the unit overseas. When it is not practical to sort tobacco parcels into unit bags, the consolidation takes place at the Canadian overseas postal depot in the United Kingdom where the individual tobacco parcels are checked in and again listed on being dispatched to the units.
During 1943 losses by enemy action decreased sharply, and it is estimated that losses from all causes are only slightly more than 1 per cent while the mails are in the custody of the Canadian armed forces postal service. Losses do occur when parcels are in custody of the British postal service or after delivery to the units. The Cana'dian postal corps endeavours to reduce these losses as far as possible by inspection of the unit mail rooms. There is, however, a limit as to what can be done in this connection.
In most cases of complaints concerning cigarette parcels cognizance is not taken of the time actually required for a parcel to reach its destination even under favourable conditions. Representations of non-delivery are made before the parcel has had time to reach its destination. Time and again investigation has shown that the parcels complained about were delivered in the normal course of time.
It should be borne in mind that delays also occur between the time an order is placed at the corner tobacconist and the time it is received by the tobacco company, also between the time the order is received by the tobacco company and the date it is delivered to the Canadian postal corps for handling and dispatch.
Many parcels are received which are inadequately addressed. This is sometimes due to misreading of the written address when the address label is typed. Search after search is made through records in an endeavour to locate the correct addressee.
When a parcel finally fails of delivery it is turned over to the auxiliary services of the Canadian armed forces for distribution generally to Canadian armed forces personnel. In all cases where this action is taken a letter is sent to the sender advising him of the treatment given to the parcel.
1st day 2nd day
16th day 17th day
20th day 27th day
53rd day
57th day
58th day 59th day 60th day

Sup-ply-Post Office
A number of societies and auxiliaries in Canada are using obsolete lists. These lists contain names of men who have never left Canada. This creates avoidable searches through records and indirectly delays the handling of parcels to persons who are overseas.
In this connection I wish to thank the various persons and organizations who have given their time and talents to bring about improvements in the addressing of mail and the preparation of parcels. I might mention specially Mrs. Weeks, whose husband, Brigadier E. G. Weeks, is at C.M.H.Q. overseas. She has particularly helped in this work.
The next item I should like to deal with is parcels to Canadian forces in the Mediterranean area.


Richard Burpee Hanson: How much more is there of this essay? We can all read it if the minister would put it on Hansard.
Mr. MULOCIv:	There are some other
things in which the hon. member might be interested.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I am interested in it all.


William Pate Mulock: Perhaps some other hon. members are interested.


James Layton Ralston: If other hon. members are not interested, the troops are interested.


Richard Burpee Hanson: We can read it all in Hansard if it is put on the record.


William Pate Mulock: Certainly they can read it. I will give another example of the average transit time.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: The minister will be coming back to mail to Italy?


William Pate Mulock: Yes. The example I wish to put on Hansard follows:
Parcels to Canadian Forces Overseas-Canada to Mediterranean
Parcels travel via United Kingdom, are resorted at Canadian overseas postal depot, England (except unit bags) and are then dispatched from United Kingdom to Mediterranean ports.	>
Average transit time
Parcel mailed in central Canada	1st day
Rail transit to base post office,
Ottawa, arriving on	4th	day
Sorted and dispatched from base post
office	5th	dayArriving at port of dispatch on	7th	day
Unloaded and stored awaiting space
on steamers (average seven days) 14th day
Ship awaiting make-up of convoy (average ten days) and slow convoy to United Kingdom (average sixteen days)-twenty-six days Waiting at port of arrival and unloading (average four days)
Loaded in cars and dispatched to Canadian overseas postal depot Mails checked and resorted for Mediterranean area
Waiting space on ships to Mediterranean area (average five days) Dispatch to United Kingdom port and loading on steamer
Ship awaiting make-up of convoy to Mediterranean (average six days) Average time slow convoy to Italian ports-twenty days Waiting at port of arrival and unloading (average five days)
From port to Canadian base post office serving units (average two days)
By road transport to formation postal unit
Arrival at unit for delivery
40th day 44th day 45th day 47th day 52nd day 54th day 60th day 80th day 85th day
87th day
88th day 90th day
The transit times which I have just read cover an ordinary parcel. If the parcel in question had been a tobacco parcel it would have taken approximately fourteen days longer, which is the average time taken by the tobacco company to fill orders.
Furthermore, had the parcel arrived in the United Kingdom during the Christmas rush period, it would have taken a further ten days to handle on account of the congestion at the docks, lack of rolling stock, overloaded facilities and additional time waiting for steamers and convoys.
During the months of November, December and January 621,440 parcels were dispatched from the United Kingdom to the central Mediterranean.
The majority of these were Christmas parcels from Canada, and it is estimated that the bulk would reach Italy some time during January.
All parcel mails do not travel from Canada to the Mediterranean via the United Kingdom. Arrangements were made in the fall of the year with the United States army postal authorities whereby Canadian mails could be dispatched through United States ports. It was provided by the United States authorities, however, that this arrangement could only take effect after their Christmas bulk had been cleared.
A number of dispatches have already been made via United States ports and it is estimated that the average transit time from the base post office in Canada to Italy is approximately fifty days. Occasionally, however, these steamers are diverted to a port other than the original destination. This generally
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delays eventual arrival at destination as exceptional arrangements have to be made for the onward transmission from the point of diversion-.
Our chief concern in connection with mails to Italy centres in items addressed to the personnel of reinforcement units. The difficulty eases once they have been posted to definite units, but while the men are moving from a reinforcement unit in England to a reinforcement group and depots in Italy and from one reinforcement battalion to another reinforcement battalion and then eventually to a definite unit, the possibility of expeditious handling is remote.
Items have to be routed through the records several times before the addressee is located, and often by the time the parcel reaches that location he has moved on to some other point. This difficulty is not peculiar to the Canadian army. It is met with in all forces.
Eventually the mail catches up with the addressee, and two incidents have very recently come to my attention where men had moved from one unit to another or from one location to another. One man received 107 items at one time, and another seventy-eight.
In an endeavour to give a picture of this situation I propose to read a statement of the channels through which the mails would pass in connection with reinforcement units. In case the impression might prevail that this is a hypothetical statement, I am taking the liberty of reading a letter which I have just received:
February 21, 1914.
The Postmaster General,
Ottawa, Ont.
Dear Sir:
I wish to bring to your attention a situation which, if possible, should be remedied.
My son was wounded on December 19, while serving with the West Nova Scotia regiment. His Christmas parcels were mailed before November 1, securely packed and tied and properly addressed. These parcels were addressed to him at 7 C.I.R.U. England, but he had moved to the 1st Battalion 1 C.B.R.D. in North Africa. Later he moved to the 4th Battalion 1 C.B.R.D. which station, I believe, is in Italy.
The young man wrote me under date of January 29 that he had not received a letter or a parcel since the middle of October. Since November, the family have sent him several parcels and letters, some addressed to North Africa and the balance to the 4th Battalion 1 C.B.R.D.
I know you will appreciate that it is discouraging to both the young man and his family, that his parcels and letters are not being received.
Yours very truly,
Perhaps I might be allowed to put on Hansard, as it covers two-and-a-half typewritten pages, a description of the travel of a letter addressed to a member of a reinforcement unit recently arrived in the United Kingdom who is included in a draft for the Mediterranean theatre. If any hon. member has any suggestion to improve the service, it will be gratefully received. The description is as follows:
Brief description of the travel of a letter addressed to a member of a reinforcement unit recently arrived in the United Kingdom who is included in a draft for the Mediterranean theatre.
Letter is forwarded from Canada in the usual way, addressed to a reinforcement unit in England. Time required, air mail approximately ten days, surface mail approximately thirty days.
Letter arrived in the United Kingdom but there is yet no record at the reinforcement unit of the addressee.
Letter is then forwarded to the Canadian records in England and search made for the addressee's correct address.
Often there is no trace in records as the information is not yet complete concerning the unit to which the addressee has been posted.
The letter is held for a week and then put through Canadian records again.
If records contain information of unit to which the addressee is posted, letter is endorsed accordingly.
If there is still no record of addressee, the letter is held another week and is put through the Canadian records again at regular intervals until he is found.
The redirected letter is forwarded to the Canadian overseas postal depot, England, for sortation and dispatch.
The letter arrives at the reinforcement unit in England to which the addressee has been posted. It is sorted to the respective company by the unit mail orderly.
Letter is delivered to the addressee if he is still in the United Kingdom.
If the addressee has been included in a reinforcement draft for the Mediterranean theatre the letter is so endorsed by- the unit mail orderly.
Letter is forwarded, from the reinforcement unit in the United Kingdom to the Canadian overseas postal depot for sortation and dispatch to the Mediterranean theatre.
Letter is forwarded to the reinforcement depot, central Mediterranean force, time required approximately thirty days by surface, six to sixteen days by air.
Letter arrives at base post office, Mediterranean theatre, and dispatched to the postal tracing section, Canadian 2nd echelon.
Letter put through the postal tracing section to ascertain to which depot and to which battalion within the depot the addressee has been posted.
If tracing section records contain information of unit to which addressee is posted letter endorsed accordingly.
[Mr. Mulock.)

Supply-Post Office
If postal tracing section records have no information letter is held and again put through the records at regular intervals.
Redirected letter forwarded to appropriate reinforcement battalion.
Battalion mail orderly sorts into companies and delivers to the addressee if he is still with the battalion.
If addressee has been posted to an advance reinforcement battalion letter is again redirected by the mail orderly.
Letter sorted by Canadian postal unit and forwarded to the advance battalion for delivery.
If addressee has been posted from advance battalion letter is put through the records to ascertain new address.
Letter redirected according to new address and transferred to Canadian postal unit for sortation and dispatch.
Letter despatched to Canadian postal unit serving the new address.
Letter dispatched by Canadian postal corps to the addressee's new unit where it is delivered by unit post orderly if the addressee is still with the unit.
If addressee has become a casualty the letter is so endorsed by competent authority.
Letter returned to the postal tracing section at Canadian 2nd echelon.
Letter put through tracing section records to ascertain where the addressee is now located.
If the records have received information letter is again redirected.
If there is no information letter is put through postal tracing section records at regular intervals until the new location is recorded, when the letter is readdressed.
After redirection letter is forwarded to the C.P.C. postal unit.
Canadian postal corps unit sorts the letter according to the new address, usually a hospital, and forwards it to the nearest Canadian or British postal unit for delivery.
It often happens that the wounded man is moved from a British to a Canadian hospital. Letter is then redirected to the new hospital by the hospital mail orderly.
Letter is forwarded through tracing section where the new address is recorded and the letter immediately sent on for delivery.
Letter is forwarded by Canadian postal unit to new hospital address.
On arrival of the letter at hospital it is delivered to the addressee if he is still in the hospital. If he has left the hospital the same procedure as outlined above is followed ad lib until the letter eventually reaches the addressee.
It will be noted that I concluded the statement just read at the point where we deal with mail for a soldier who is a casualty and in hospital.
Let me now place on record action which has been taken to improve the service to these men by short-cutting the time required for delivery.
Use of Casualty Air Mail Postcard.-To expedite mail to soldiers in hospital a special card has been introduced with the approval of the Department of National Defence.
Normally, as hon. members are aware, mail travels to the unit of address and is redirected by the mail orderly of that unit to the latest known address. This procedure is followed
until the mail is delivered to the addressee. The procedure involves many handlings and frequent searches through records before it reaches a soldier in hospital.
Now, on entry to hospital if the case so warrants-if he is going to be in hospital some considerable time-a special card is filled in either by the soldier or on his behalf asking relatives and friends when writing to him to add the words "in hospital" to the unit address which they usually use.
This card after being filled in is given priority treatment throughout the whole of its transmission to the addressee in Canada. Wherever possible, delivery is expedited by air transport without charge.
Letters mailed in Canada bearing the indication "in hospital," instead of being forwarded to the man's unit, are routed direct to the records in the United Kingdom or with the central Mediterranean Force, as the case may be.
At these points the letter is endorsed with the latest known address of the soldier and it is sent to destination by the quickest possible means.
Letters bearing the words "in hospital" are given priority treatment at the base post office and are given preference in the matter of transport according to the rate paid, air or surface.
This procedure short-cuts the normal practice of delivery to the unit and the tracing through the various steps from unit to unit and eventually to hospital.
Some of the complainants have intimated that the department has endeavoured to make financial gain out of the present situation by collecting airmail fees and sending mails by surface.
Naturally I can only speak for the mail posted in Canada to which Canadian postage is affixed. Westbound mail to Canada is the responsibility of the administration in whose jurisdiction it is mailed, but I cannot imagine any postal administration endeavouring to exploit the present situation for financial gain.
Priority is unquestionably given to mail prepaid .for air transport. It does happen, however, occasionally that meteorological forecasts indicate bad flying weather for several days ahead, or possibly mechanical difficulties will delay the take off for several days and there is no alternative aircraft available. In such cases, if there is a fast surface outlet and the possibilities are that the mails will reach destination earlier, the air mails are transferred from the plane to the surface ship. The determining factor is to secure the earliest possible delivery to the addressee.
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Further, complaints are made that letters posted a number of days apart arrive at the same time. I am sure that hon. members will find this easily understandable from the information I have already given.
Planes loaded at different dates are held for weather. When the weather breaks the planes take off, arriving at destination at approximately the same time.
In this connection I should like to put on record extracts from the log of two aircraft engaged in the carriage of mails to and from the armed forces. With the approval of the committee, I would put them on record rather than read them, because they are rather long.


The CHAIRMAN:: With the approval of the committee.


William Pate Mulock: The extracts follow:
The extracts follow:
Extract from Postal Log (A)
29	December-expected to leave Dorval 1st January
31 December-scheduled to leave Dorval 3rd J anuary
5	January-due out of Dorval 5 January-left at night carrying 6,207i lbs.
of mail, but had to return on account of weather
7	January-still held at Dorval-snow on runways and bad weather
8	January-left Dorval; got as far as
Labrador, but returned to Dorval as the weather over the Atlantic was unfavourable
10	January-due to leave Dorval
11	January-expected to leave Dorval. Left
Dorval 10.05 p.m.
12	January-arrived in United Kingdom
9.21 a.m.
17	January-scheduled to leave United Kingdom for Canada
18	January-held in United Kingdom on account
of bad weather
19	January-scheduled to leave for Canada via
Iceland. Plane started on its flight but had to return
20	January-departure held up on account of
bad weather
21	January-departure still held up
22	January-expected to leave United Kingdom
on 23rd
23	January-left United Kingdom 7.20 a.m.;
arrived in Iceland 12.09 p.m. Left Iceland for Canada with 3,915 lbs. mail
25	January-arrived Montreal 27 minutes after
midnight
26	January-undergoing repairs at Dorval, will
not be serviceable for a week 1 February-still undergoing repairs and tests 3 February-expected to be available for flight to United Kingdom by 5th February
5 February-scheduled to leave 10.00 p.m. on 6th February
7	February

Mail loaded, plane due to leave.
Later, departure delayed on account of bad weather
8	February-left Dorval 10.00 p.m. with 6,133
. lbs. mail
9	February-arrived United Kingdom 10.20 a.m. IMr. Muloek.]
Extract from Postal Log (B)
11 January-arrived in United Kingdom. Unserviceable until 14 January 14 January-repairs not completed
16	January-scheduled to leave for Canada
17	January

held in United Kingdom on account of weather
18	January-scheduled to leave 10.00 p.m.
19	January-scheduled to leave via Iceland
7.00	a.m.
20	January-departure further delayed on account of bad weather until
10.00	p.m.
21	January-still held up by weather
22	January-plane moved to airport in south of
United Kingdom in an endeavour to make trip via the Azores
24	January-still at airport in south of England held up by weather
26	January-still further delayed by weather
27	January-expected to leave 8.00 a.m. 28
January
29	January-returned to airport in north to
endeavour to make trip via Iceland
30	January-left northern airport in United
Kingdom, forced to return on account of weather
31	January-left for Iceland with 6,467 lbs.
letters
2	February-still in Iceland held on account
of weather
3	February-still in Iceland held on account
of weather
5	February-still in Iceland delayed on account of weather

departure indefinite
6	February-left Iceland
7	February-arrived Labrador 12.39 p.m.
8	February-left Labrador 11.29 a.m. Arrived
Rockcliffe 4.55 p.m. with 6,467 lbs. of mail.
Such delays will occur as long as we are dependent on weather and machines.
As to the personnel angle, I have nothing but the highest of praise for the courage, devotion and determination of the crews of the Royal Canadian Air Force and the Trans-Canada Air Lines, who fly these aircraft in all weathers and who are subject to all kinds of hazards and dangers.
I have purposely gone to some length in dealing with the subject of mail to and from the Canadian armed forces as I desire to place before the committee and before the public the complete picture as clearly as circumstances permit.
As I have mentioned, I have every sympathy with the anxiety of those persons who are complaining of the delay or non-delivery of letters to and from their sons, daughters, husbands and friends. I appreciate just how they feel.
The majority of complainants, as hon. members will have gathered from the particulars of the actual elapsed times required for the

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various classes of mail, have not allowed sufficient time for their letters or parcels to be delivered and for an acknowledgment to be received.
The postal service, civil and military, has nothing to hide. We have no reason to seek excuses. There is no cause for blame. We have unfailingly striven to give the best possible service with the facilities at our disposal We have continuously striven to improve these facilities and to overcome obstacles and handicaps, always, however, with an abiding appreciation of the grim necessity of priority being given to vital supplies of men and materials necessary for the welfare and success of our arms.
In closing, I wish to pay tribute to the members of the civil postal service and the Canadian postal corps who have not spared themselves in their efforts to safeguard the mails and to expedite delivery.
The esprit de corps of the armed forces postal service is second to none. Every individual, whether in a postal unit operating near the front lines or in the base at home, is imbued with one dominant idea, that of service.
I ask every member of this house, if they have complaints which they wish investigated, to forward them, and I can assure them that such complaints will be given careful consideration, a thorough investigation, and that they will receive a report as to the results.


Gordon Graydon: I wish to thank the minister for his comprehensive statement. Perhaps most hon. members will feel that it is so comprehensive and so far-reaching in its details that some time will be required to digest all the points which it raises.
It is not my purpose to deal at length with the statement, but rather to ask the minister one or two questions which have been concerning me for some time in connection with the mails. I believe that most of us who have a heavy overseas correspondence have observed considerable irregularity from time to time in the mail service. Some letters come very quickly from far-away places, but at times the delays are very great. Perhaps I shall find when I have digested the minister's statement that this point is cleared up.
One matter of complaint by our Canadian boys, of which the Minister of National Defence may have heard something when he was overseas a short time ago, is their belief that the United States mail and postal services are much more expeditious than our own. Whether that is the fact I am not in a position to say, but the statement is made repeatedly,
and I think we should have some information to show whether it is unfounded or whether there is some basis for it in fact.
Another point is this. I understand that our boys are not required to pay postage on ordinary mail coming this way, but they are charged for letters they send by air mail. I have none with me at the moment, but I received two or three such letters to-day, both from the scene of military operations and from England. Apparently the soldier has to pay airmail postage. I wish the minister would give some consideration to this matter. It seems to me that we owe it to our troops to enable them to send their letters, no matter how they are sent, without payment of any postal charges. I would not have brought this up except that I have just had one or two complaints from overseas with respect to it. It is true they were only mild complaints; nevertheless I think the matter is sufficiently important for the minsiter to deal with it.
On some subsequent occasion the minister might give us some idea of the yearly movement of tobacco from Canada to the troops overseas. I ask this question because it may be the foundation of something else which I shall want to say later on. I am not so sure that all our troops get all the tobacco that they should from Canada.


James Layton Ralston: And cigarettes.


Gordon Graydon: Yes. When I said
"tobacco" I used that as a comprehensive term, including cigarettes. There may be some reason to the contrary, but I do not know why the government should not provide our boys overseas with tobacco and cigarettes.


James Layton Ralston: There is a small issue.


Gordon Graydon: I realize that. I wish the government would take the matter under favourable consideration. As most hon. members know, some men overseas get a lot of tobacco and cigarettes. I know that a new system has been instituted whereby at a certain stage a distribution is made more equitably throughout the units. Nevertheless I think the government might give consideration to a ration issue of tobacco and cigarettes to our men. It would be a small thing from the point of view of money but a big thing so far as our troops are concerned. Both the government and civilians should be extremely generous in these matters. To some civilians they may seem little things, but to the men overseas they are greatly magnified. I should like to think that we here are doing all we can for the men in this regard, and I include cigarettes and tobacco and such other comforts as may be needed. I
Supply-Post Office

do not think it is always equitable, nor is it always just, that the men overseas should have to rely for these little additional comforts on their friends over here, because, as the minister knows, some of them have more friends here than others. I leave this suggestion with him, and when we have digested the lengthy report he has given, we shall be more competent to deal with some of the details contained therein.


William Pate Mulock: May I reply to one or two questions asked by the leader of the opposition. As I understand the United States parcel system, the soldier must write and ask for articles to be sent him before they are sent. They have not been accorded the same facilities in the receiving of parcels that our troops enjoy. In regard to tobacco parcels, I might give the figures. There are 3,869,000 parcels averaging, as closely as we can tell, between 500 and 600 cigarettes to the parcel.


Gordon Graydon: On the first question the minister has answered, I do not think he quite understood my reference to United States mail. I was not referring to parcels. The complaints I have had are with respect to letters, not parcels.


William Pate Mulock: We will let the item stand.


James Sinclair: I should like to say a few words on the subject of airmail service to the forces. Not only have I sent mail to the forces, but, like the hon. and gallant member for Nanaimo (Mr. Chambers), I have received a fair amount overseas. I compliment the minister upon the steady improvement in the postal service to the army, the air force and the navy overseas in the last two years. Actually, the provision of a quick mail service to the men in combatant zones is not quite so easy as some armchair critics in Canada think it is.
I have one or two little suggestions to offer the minister, first of all, about airmail letter cards, which are the most effective way of getting mail to the troops. My first objection to the Canadian form is the awkward way in which it is prepared as far as writing is concerned, because of the manner in which it is folded. One writes a little bit here, a little bit somewhere else and a little bit over on the back. The British, who started the system, have an easier way. They make one fold in the paper; it is the same sized paper, and one writes as one would an ordinary letter. The second suggestion is that the minister should revise the rates for sending these things. The leader of the opposition has suggested that perhaps all soldiers' mail should go free airmail. That is an admirable suggestion, but

I do not think it is a practical one. If you saw the amount of mail coming back you would realize that we would have to divert half the bomber group overseas to carry mail back. I think, however, that all Canadian service men overseas should have an opportunity of sending at the British overseas rate. The British man outside the country can send one of these things to Britain for threepence and the civilian in Britain sends one back for sixpence, just as we pay ten cents. A great number of Canadian soldiers in Britain must pay the sixpenny rate. In the far east and middle east we pay threepence to send one of these to Canada and from Great Britain sixpence. I suggest to the minister that he make an investigation to see whether the Canadian troops overseas could not send these airmail letter cards to Canada for threepence.


William Pate Mulock: 
James Sinclair: There is no rationing of these cards to civilians either in Canada or in Great Britain, but our Canadians in the middle east and the far east get a ration of only one a week. I suggest that there should be no ration. As hon. members know, the mothers and sweethearts in this country are sending bundles to Canadians to supplement the ration. I urge that there should be no ration to the men in the middle east and the far east.
May I refer to the cigarette situation. When I was first overseas there were many complaints about cigarettes, and there was undoubtedly a considerable loss both on convoy and by pilfering not only in the regular but in the army post office. I commend the minister for the way in which he cleared up that situation. Every cigarette package now coming is registered, and when it is opened by the orderly in the unit a check-up is made. Recently there

Sup-ply-Post Office
has been little loss in cigarettes delivered overseas. There is considerable delay, but, after all, parcel post going forward is not nearly as important as the letters themselves. I was interested in what the leader of the opposition said regarding the scarcity of cigarettes. It is true that some men are more fortunate than others in having more friends to send cigarettes to them, but I wish to pay a tribute to the service clubs, labour unions and various other organizations throughout the country who have contributed so heavily to provide cigarettes free for almost every Canadian overseas. If I may refer to my own experience with the Windsor City squadron, the city took such good care of us that I suggest to the minister that one of the problems which will have to be faced in connection with rehabilitation w'hen the war is over is that of teaching our chaps to buy their own cigarettes again after getting cigarettes free for so long.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is it open to ask the Postmaster General to-night, under this item, questions that are not akin to the immediate subject-matter of his discussion? It is not intended to carry on this discussion generally of the Post Office Department?


William Pate Mulock: No.


Richard Burpee Hanson: This occasion, then, has been accorded in order to enable the Postmaster General to make this statement. Is that the idea?


William Pate Mulock: I will answer that question.


Richard Burpee Hanson: If that is so, I will not upset the equilibrium of the sitting, although I notice some nice teamwork going on; but I give notice-


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Order.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What is the matter? I wish to give the minister notice that I propose to ask him to make a statement at a future date convenient to himself with respect to the policy of the government and of his department relating to those members of the public service belonging to the railway mail clerks' association who did not, for reasons which seemed good to them at the time, back in 1924, 1925, 1926 and 1927, take up the offer of the government of the day regarding the superannuation fund, and who are now seeking, because of a reduction of interest rates allowed on the payments they make into the retirement fund, to have a further extension of time given for their benefit, feeling otherwise that they are being discriminated against. I am giving that as a notice of motion to the Postmaster General.


William Pate Mulock: May I tell the hon. member for York-Sunbury that this is a matter regarding which he should give notice to the Minister of Finance?


Richard Burpee Hanson: It is up to you. I think you ought to answer it. I am going to depend upon you for an answer.


George Hugh Castleden: The question that I desire to put to the minister deals with mail received by the ranks of service men in Italy. The reports I have are to the effect that men have gone as long as three weeks without any mail being received by their units. Can the minister give us, from his records, the longest period of time since December in which the men in Italy have not received mail?


William Pate Mulock: Is the hon. member referring to air mail?


George Hugh Castleden: Mail of any kind; the men have not received mail of any kind.


William Pate Mulock: In Italy?


George Hugh Castleden: Yes.


William Pate Mulock: Could the hon. member tell me whether the people involved were in a reinforcement unit or a definite unit?


George Hugh Castleden: They were in a reinforcement unit.


William Pate Mulock: On this occasion I suggest that the hon. member read the statement which I have put on Hansard. If he does so, he will see some of the difficulties in the reinforcement units. When this department comes back into supply on the estimates, I suggest that he bring up the matter again. I think it would be well for him to go over my statement in the meantime. I shall be glad to get the information for him. It is not available here.


George Hugh Castleden: It is true there have been some losses, of a definite nature, of mail going to Italy?


William Pate Mulock: Yes.


George Hugh Castleden: I should like the minister to give the committee assurance that the mail is now being resumed and is being received at the present time.


William Pate Mulock: Oh, yes.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: I suppose at some later date the minister will enlarge on one or two points in particular. I took down the sequence of dates when the minister was making a statement and I gathered that ordinarily mail takes about twenty-eight to thirty days to be delivered. I followed the mail step by step as
95S
Supply-Post Office

it progresses through Canada to destination, and I find that it gets up as high as ninety days and with some slight additions it may reach a hundred days; but I would think the average would be twenty-eight to thirty days.


William Pate Mulock: I was referring to parcels.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: I took a note of the
statement the minister placed on Hansard, and I notice that it keeps running up until it reaches ninety days. That cannot be the regular sequence of things when the average runs to about twenty-five days or thereabouts.


William Pate Mulock: I put these different figures on the statement to show what happens with regard to parcels. Parcels are treated differently from letters. I would suggest that the hon. member look over each of the differem tables. What he says about the mails is approximately correct. The parcels may not go in the same convoy or in the same ship with letters.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: Parcels are just the
same. I have acknowledgments of many parcels and they ran around twenty days, and while there is a build-up here of ninety days I am trying to coordinate one statement with the actual experience.


William Pate Mulock: I should like to ask the
hon. member one question. Is he speaking about parcels to the United Kingdom or to the Mediterranean?


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: I am speaking of parcels to the United Kingdom.


William Pate Mulock: The statement with regard to ninety days applies to the Mediterranean.
Mr. LOCKHART Those run from ten to twelve days longer. May I refer to the mails coming this way, the air mail, for which a soldier has to pay. The leader of the opposition referred to that. During the past week I received four letters, two by air mail and two by regular mail. The two letters by regular mail arrived ahead of the air mail. If that is going to be the situation, I suggest either making it free to the men or cut it out altogether.


William Pate Mulock: Just on that subject, I
might have mentioned that where we have space available when we are carrying air mail we bring surface mail although airmail rates have not been paid on them. ' We are going to carry all the mail we can, even if it is surface mail.


Mr. CHAMBERS:: I can give the minister an example. I received a letter from Victoria,

delivered right on the battlefield, which had taken only six days. I received a cable delivered in England which had taken eleven weeks. Therefore, you can take your pick.
Item stands.
Progress reported.



WAR APPROPRIATION BILL


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Thursday, February 24, consideration in committee of a resolution to grant to His Majesty certain sums of money for the carrying out of measures consequent upon the existence of a state of war- Mr. Ilsley-Mr. Bradette in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
5. Personnel supplies and services:	food,
medical and dental stores, clothing and personal equipment, $159,566,238.
Mr. STIRLING:: I wish to bring a matter to the attention of the minister and ask whether he will give consideration to an improvement in the methods under which apples are being bought for the army. There used to be a ceiling imposed on prices by the Department of National Defence, which made sure that apples should not cost more than SI.65 a bushel. For purposes of this discussion we can take a box to be the equivalent of a bushel. They used to be SI.65 a bushel or a box, with the consequence that outside a certain radius from the production point it was impossible for a camp or an army establishment to purchase apples because the freight mounted up too high.


James Layton Ralston: Local purchase?


Grote Stirling: In Canada, yes.


James Layton Ralston: I mean, it was local purchase, it was not for Munitions and Supply under contract?


Grote Stirling: I cannot follow the minister through that because the exact method which is adopted is not clear to me. As I understand it, the restriction was put on by the Department of National Defence. As the weeks went by, storage charges, of course, mounted on those apples, and by the time they reached the point of consumption the radius was drawn back and back by the extra cost of the bushel or the box until toward the end of the season the apples were not getting outside British Columbia. I am speaking, of :ourse, of British Columbia production. They were reaching only those

War Appropriation-Army
camps which were west of the Rocky mountains. When the wartime prices and trade board put on their ceiling last year the Department of National Defence ceiling was dropped to substitute for it. The restriction then was that nothing of a higher grade than grade C was to be bought for the troops. That is the third grade of apples. If there was a restriction by grade in the purchase of other foodstuffs the producer of apples would, of course, have little grievance; but that is not the situation.
When beef is purchased for the troops Blue Label is purchased. When potatoes are purchased, the highest grade of potatoes, No. 1, is purchased. It is the same with onions; No. 1 are purchased, and with oranges nothing below fancy may be bought. In connection with apples, however, the third grade is considered good enough for the troops. The United States do not look upon this matter in that way at all; they purchase the best grade of apples for their troops. Last year when, because for export difficulties, some two hundred thousand boxes were released for export to the United States, they were commandeered by the army commissary department as soon as they arrived in that country, and moreover a commissary officer was sent to British Columbia to see to it that nothing but the .highest grades and the most desirable export varieties were sent. So that the United States take, shall I say, greater care of the requirements of their men in apples than we do.
Then in the United States and the United Kingdom there is a far more definite recognition of the nutritional value of apples than there is in Canada. In this country there was very little obtainable in the way of statistical information two or three years ago, but I am informed that some valuable work in .nutrition has been carried on by experimental farms throughout Canada, particularly the one at Summerland, British Columbia. Officials who formerly were rather skeptical of the value of apples in regard to nutrition are now in agreement that they have a value for which nothing else can be substituted. It seems to me that an attempt should be made to place the purchase of apples on a different basis. The latest arrangement, I believe, I find in a letter sent last month by the deputy minister of national defence to British Columbia Tree Fruits Limited, in which he says:
.	.	. the matter has been receiving careful
consideration and it has been decided that, until the next apple crop is harvested, this department will purchase a proportion of the higher grades of apples in both western and eastern Canada.
I cannot help thinking that this decision has been induced by the shortness of the 1943 crop, which was below average; now that we are along toward the end of February it may very well be that inconsiderable quantities of apples are available for purchase.
I am bringing this matter to the minister's attention in the very great hope that this method will not be adopted in the coming year. We are heading for an enormous crop, as we think, and it seems most desirable that our men should have the greatest possible opportunity to obtain a good and plentiful supply of apples. I do not know if the minister has received complaints from the troops, as many hon. members have, and also from the parents and relatives of men in camp in Canada. They do not see why they cannot obtain a respectable apple to eat, so that I would suggest to the minister that this matter be reconsidered. It is just too bad that only the poorer grades of apples, if they are obtainable at all, should be placed before these men. I suggest that consideration should be given to allowing greater latitude on the part of the quartermaster who purchases them. He is given a certain amount of discretion in buying his beef, his potatoes, his onions, his oranges and, for aught I know, other foods, and it seems to me that it would be quite reasonable to allow him some latitude in the purchase of apples. These C grade apples are excellent apples of their sort, but for many years the Department of Agriculture has advocated buying by grade, and if you do buy by grade you get what you pay for. These C grade apples are admirable for apple pie and applesauce, but when it comes to eating apples it is much better to pay the extra money and enable the men to have at least fancy apples, which is the next grade above C.
Of course, coming from British Columbia, I am looking at this matter from the point of view of that province, but it applies also to the other two producing centres in Canada. When there is a fixed price the radius becomes so, small that those outside that' radius do not get their apples; and if there is the further restriction that only the third grade- may be purchased, then even if the men get apples at all they do not get a palatable fruit. Would the minister give consideration to this?


James Layton Ralston: Knowing where I come from, my hon. friend can, I think, be sure that I shall do so. The hon. gentleman has caught me quite off base; I do not know anything at all about this. I notice that he has correspondence with the deputy minister, but it has not been brought to my attention.
War Appropriation-Army


Grote Stirling: This was not a letter to me but to British Columbia Tree Fruits Limited, which was handed to me.


James Layton Ralston: I shall look into the matter at once. I am quite satisfied that the quartermaster-general does have the discretion, but he may not have considered it necessary to exercise it. My only thought is that the C grade British Columbia apple may be as good as the first grade United States apple; that is the only suggestion I have to offer, though I hardly suppose a Nova Scotian would admit that. I have just received a note from one hon. member who tells me that the matter was taken up with my department and that just lately he was advised that the best grade is now issued to the troops. I have not personal knowledge of it, but I shall look into the matter and let the committee know. Being an inveterate apple eater myself, I thoroughly agree that the best is none too good, and agree with my hon. friend as to not oply the nutritious bht also the delicious qualities of an apple.


Mr. BENCE:: Could the minister give the committee some information in connection with the matter of reporting casualties? I have no knowledge of the difficulties with which the army is faced in reporting casualties to the director of records, but in a number of instances with which I am familiar the bare report has come from overseas that So-and-so has been wounded in action. The ^message that is sent out by the director of records is to the effect that this man has been reported wounded, but the extent of the injuries is not known at the time, and it is a matter of perhaps ten days or possibly three or four weeks in some instances before any further information is obtained. Could the minister not do something to obtain more details when these first casualty reports come in from the front? In one case I have in mind the man did not even have to retire from his position; he suffered merely a superficial wound, but his next-of-kin were greatly concerned when they received a message from the director of records stating that this man was wounded. As far as they knew he might have been seriously wounded. Could the minister enlighten us on that point?


James Layton Ralston: Naturally this matter has given me a great deal of concern, not only in connection with the time at which the wound is reported but also in connection with the report of the nature of the wound itself. I think I have gone into it all the way up and all the way down the line. It is regarded as

most essential that information be sent to the next-of-kin at the earliest possible moment as to the fact of the casualty having occurred. A suggestion was made to me the other day by a father, who said, "I have a suggestion which sounds very simple, and I wonder that you have not accepted it long ago. That is, do not send your information with regard to the casualty until you are able to tell us the nature of the wound." I said, "My dear friends I know what would happen; within ten days somebody would wire or radio home with regard to that particular case and information would be given as to his wound before the Department of National Defence would have reported it."


Gordon Graydon: I think that has happened in one or two cases.


James Layton Ralston: I am afraid it has happened in more than one or two cases. There was a case of four officers that gave me a great deal of concern last October. The nature of the wound is reported just as soon as the man is brought to a centre from which a report can be sent. As my hon. friend knows, these men are out in battle. They are wounded and a stretcher-bearer comes to attend them. The stretcher-bearer takes the name and makes a note of the wound, and that is sent back as soon as possible by runner or otherwise. Battalion headquarters are notified that Smith is wounded. However, I think the medical men will agree that it would be a dangerous procedure to adopt to have the stretcher-bearer attempt a diagnosis. It could happen that he would give the impression there was only a slight wound when the soldier might be suffering from something that would result seriously.
Immediately the man gets back to the dressing-station or the regimental aid post-I forget the names, but it used to be the regimental aid post in the last war-the diagnosis ;s made by a medical man. It may happen that the man is tagged "DNK", which means "diagnosis not known". Every effort is made then to see that the man is sent back to a hospital or a casualty clearing station where a more definite examination can be made.
That is the reason for the difference in time between reporting the actual casualty and the nature of the wound. I am gratified to be able to say that these reports as to the nature of the wound have been coming through more promptly. The practice has been and still is where a wound is superficial not to load the communication circuits with information of that kind. My hon. friends will understand that the load on the transmission circuits and

.	War Appropriation-Army
the wireless with regard to operations and things of that sort is almost impossible to handle, and to load them with casualty messages would be perhaps more than the circuits could stand. As a matter of fact, we put in a special circuit from Italy to Canadian military headquarters in England to carry these particular messages.
If my hon. friends have any cases in mind- and I am not sure that they have-they would help the service if they would refer them to me. Coming back to what my hon. friend has asked about, I do not think there is anything that can be done to make the notification of the nature of the wound concurrent with the notification of the casualty. Our effort is to report promptly any casualty, and we report the nature of the wound just as soon thereafter as we can get a diagnosis that can be reasonably relied upon.


Alfred Henry Bence: If the wound is obviously a superficial wound, would that fact be advised in the first communication sent?


James Layton Ralston: They use the words
"slightly wounded" sometimes, but that is as far as they go. I suppose the stretcher-bearer might be justified in making that statement. That is the only indication I have seen of anything attempted which was not a medical description of a wound.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: When air force men in Great Britain need more clothes they are provided by the British government. Does the same apply to the army?


James Layton Ralston: Does my hon. friend mean when clothes are lost?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: When clothes wear out the British government look after the replacements.


James Layton Ralston: The policy is the same. If my hon. friend knows of a case where it has not been done, it is in error and it should be rectified.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Some of the men in the air force are complaining that the uniforms they get are much coarser than those they got from the Canadian government and I was wondering if the- same applied to the army. Will the minister tell the committee what the limit is in connection with dental supplies. I am referring to porcelain inlays for teeth. Are the men as well as the officers allowed porcelain inlays, or is there a limit according to rank:?


James Layton Ralston: If there is a limit, the limit is the same for officers as for men. The 100-61
director general of dental services is not here and the director-general of medical services is giving me this information, but he is quite satisfied it is correct.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: What is the limit on that?


Alan Chambers: It is the same whether you are a soldier or an officer; you get your teeth fixed in the same way.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I am asking with regard to porcelain inlays.


James Layton Ralston: I cannot tell my hon. friend whether porcelain inlays are denied to officers. If they are, they are denied to the men. If they are denied to the men, they are denied to the officers.


Alfred Henry Bence: Can the minister give, us any information as to whether the situation in regard to sending parcels to prisoners of war has improved within the last year and whether there has been any increase in the number of vouchers or special tags that are available periodically?


James Layton Ralston: I just -have the information which comes from the Dieppe prisoners who were repatriated. They expressed appreciation of the service given by the Red Cross in connection with sending parcels. From the information I received the general impression seems to be that there has been a distinct improvement. Considering all the difficulties I think the service has been extremely good. I spoke with one officer who had been a prisoner of war and had been repatriated. I cannot give my hon. friend the number of tags or whether it has been increased. As my hon. friend knows, the number will be increased as the prisoners of war increase in number.


Alfred Henry Bence: I understand that the situation as far as Red Cross parcels are concerned has improved materially, but I was thinking of next-of-kin parcels and whether, now that shipping has improved, an increase will be permitted. I sincerely hope that this will be, done as soon as possible.


James Layton Ralston: The hon. member means to increase the number of parcels which may be sent? It is a question of transport.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Does the word "medical" in this vote refer to the medical inspection of recruits going into the army?


James Layton Ralston: It does.
Mr. MacNICOL I have had many cases of men who have been in the army for one or two years and then been discharged. I myself

War Appropriation-Army

have written about a number of them- to the department. The wonder to me is how they ever got past the medical inspection in the first place. Some had flat feet; one had a broken foot, and there were many other cases which made it seem as if the army were taken in the halt, the lame and the blind. They would be kept in the army for a considerable length of time, at great expense to the country, and then be discharged. I should like to find out how they could ever have been passed in the first place if there were any medical examination whatever.


James Layton Ralston: After my hon. friend cites a case like that, it is difficult for me to tell him what I was intending to tell him. There are very many men who are passed, and properly passed, at the time of enlistment by the medical boards, but who simply cannot take the change from a sedentary life to the activities of army life. I say this, too, in the presence of members of the air force. There are some features of army life which, as far as physical strain is concerned, are very much tougher on the man than the air force, outside of the aircrew, and some men gradually break down under the constant wear and tear of army life and of the training. That is one reason why there are many more discharges from the army than from the other services.
A second reason-and I say this advisedly- is that the requirement of physical fitness on enlistment in the army has not been so high as in the other services, particularly the air force.
The third reason-and the cases my hon. friend has in mind I think would come in here-is, as I explained to the house two years ago, that in the earlier days we had a great many civilian medical practitioners on the boards. They were doing the best they could with regard to examinations, but they were not in the army and had not had the benefit of army training, and the knowledge of army requirements. We found that a great many men who had been passed1 by these boards simply did not stand up, and that there were some cases such as my hon. friend speaks of who, if they had been examined by any army board such as we have to-day, would not have been passed1 in the first place.


Mr. GAUTHIER (Translation):: Mr. Chairman, like the hon. member for Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot), with whom I am not always in agreement, I feel that the item we are now discussing should be divided at least in two sections. One might include whatever relates to the medical corps and the drugs needed by the army, food being also covered by that first section, and the other might include clothing and personal articles.
[Mr. MacNicol.J
Referring first to food, I must say to the honourable the minister of national defence (Mr. Ralston) that it happens but too often that soldiers are poorly fed in some camps. As regards the Quebec district especially, I must tell him that complaints are often whispered-because those who make them do not want to run foul of their officers, and some soldiers are timorous-concerning the more or less cleanly and sometimes terrible conditions obtaining in some kitchens where the odours develop anything but appetite, where the colour of the tables is too often on a par with that of the floor and wh^re the sunshine wages a merciless but often vain struggle against the altogether too numerous microbes they harbour. As I have had an opportunity, while a member of the medical corps, to examine the rations, I have always been surprised to notice how first class food would, through the process of cooking, be transformed into some kind of stew not unlike the black broth of the Spartans. The best foods, if carelessly prepared, can give a very poor reputation to the cooks and their helpers without forgetting the contractors who are all no doubt anxious to supply at the lowest cost the best possible products. I have mostly heard complaints about the food at Valcartier camp, where some of the men claim that they have to rely on the canteen to fill up a stomach which, otherwise, might incur the rebellion of an ill-fed body. There is undoubtedly a lack of watchfulness somewhere, an unpardonable carelessness, or an inefficiency to which military authorities should put a stop. Soldiers are not all given to complaining; while in the army I have met very few men who did that and the reason why I consider nearly all of them reasonable is that I was making it a point to listen to what they had to say and to pay attention to their complaints.
Still, it would be interesting to hear from the minister whether among the contractors who supplied food to the Valcartier camp there was a concern by the name of Wesiberg which derived its fame from its sausage. It would also be quite interesting to know whether the wartime prices and trade board, which had something to do with that famous investigation which fizzled out, intends to punish the guilty and to cooperate with the health department, the mayor and the aldermen of the city of Quebec. While I have heard complaints about the food at Valcartier camp, on the other hand the news from the Montmagny camp are by far the best. The soldiers who have spent a fairly long time at those two camps have had an opportuntiy to notice the very great difference between them, despite the fact that both

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are in the same district. Obviously the trouble lies in the preparation of the food, and therefore in the efficiency of the cooks. The officers of the Department of National Defence should exercise strict supervision over the manner in which kitchens are kept and over the competence displayed in preparing food. Good food brings good discipline, goes the proverb held in high honour by schoolboys. The same maxim applies equally well to the army. I recall the tour made by the Minister of National Defence for Air (Mr. Power) at the beginning of the war in several camps of the Quebec district and the feeling of satisfaction evinced by servicemen when they heard that delicious pork and beans cooked in molasses would stand high on the food list. Since that time, things have inevitably relaxed, and I would ask the minister to make sure, by stern means if necessary, that our soldiers are always given the food they need.
I now come to the medical and health aspects. I do not intend to quote statistics on venereal disease or to delay the sailing of a corvette, even if it should sail from Quebec. According to an official report, Montreal and Quebec are more badly hit by the venereal evil than any other city in the dominion. This same report ascribes as principle cause of the trouble the commercialization of prostitution. I believe the report is incomplete; it should have mentioned the fact that people from all over the dominion have thronged to these two cities since the outbreak of the war. Units on their way overseas, whether they come from the neighbouring province or from the western provinces do not simply pass through; they often put in quite a stay; the findings of a report cannot be established without mention of this fact. In a gathering of men hailing from the four comers of the country and often from overseas, for Canada is very hospitable, we inevitably find different temperaments, different mentalities, ways of life which do not tally with one another, all of which clash to result in an unfortunate relaxation of behaviour favoured by the traditional bottle of beer.
On this point, opinions differ as to the best means that can be used to reduce the dangers of contamination, as far as service men are concerned. Is the lack of supervision on the part of municipal authorities in cities visited by our soldiers responsible for all the misfortunes and disasters which the medical corps, whatever its reputation, never fails to discover in military hospitals where preventive and curative means outdo each other in efficiency? Or are we to infer that the numerous means of prevention and protection with which our soldiers are provided by the army medical 100-614
authorities have caused a feeling of overconfidence bringing about hasty verdicts in the case of the most dangerous diseases developed by contact? I do not wish to venture on ground which lies outside the political sphere, as I do not care to state an opinion which is based on insufficient information. Over and1 over again, however, experience has taught me that, in the treatment of venereal disease, the army needs specialists; they should be found among medical officers, and if there are not enough of them in the army, the authorities should retain them as civilian physiciains. If the propagation of venereal disease has reached such an alarming point, I am not ready to declare that lack of moral sense among our soldiers is the main cause of that condition, There has frequently been a lack of the necessary qualifications. Indeed, all the medical men in the armed forces cannot be expected to be specialists in this particular type of treatments. The blame must not be laid upon the shoulders of the more or less competent medical officer, but upon the senior ofliicers who have placed them in a service for which they were not fully qualified.
In so far as the medical officers of training centres or companies are concerned, they are frequently over-worked either by the hospital service or by what is commonly called in the army the sick parade. It is unavoidable that out of thousands of men some may have an absolute need for medicine; they are only human, and any practitioner knows that it is not necessary to be a soldier to have such a mentality. I firmly believe, however, that they are not more numerous in the army than in civil life, and too frequently soldiers are sent back to training after being prescribed pill no. 8, 9 or 10. Too frequently, men are labelled hypochondriacs, loafers, or in common parlance, malingerers. Too frequently, the medical personnel being inadequate, those who have to bear the burden cannot take the time necessary to examine thoroughly each and everyone of these cases. As a result, the old routine practice which professional men must always guard against, takes hold1 of these officers and they are inclined to label in advance such or such soldier according to the frequency of his appearances at the sick parade. If, in order to build up a strong army, healthy men are required, it is necessary to start by supplying the army with a personnel which is adequate, well-supervised and as well-qualified as possible. I understand that, at the beginning of the war, physicians were twitted with not enlisting in sufficient numbers. But since the government compels students to volunteer, I believe that this argument no longer applies.
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James Layton Ralston: There are two or three points brought up by the hon. member to which I wish to reply. The first point was the matter of messing and cooking. He spoke generally about messing and cooking in the camps and indicated that while the food was good the preparation was not all that it should be, and he spoke of Valcartier, which he said was not as good as Montmagny. I do not know the date to which my hon. friend is referring, but perhaps he means at the time he was in the service.


Pierre Gauthier: I am speaking of what one hears from soldiers one meets on the street.


James Layton Ralston: I visited Valcartier last
summer or fall and saw the kitchens, and I really thought a good job was being done. My hon. friend knows we are taking a particular interest in the preparation of food as well as in the quality. As he knows, we have cooking schools at Borden, and every district has an opportunity to send and does send cooks there. I do not know of any place where there could be better cooks than in Quebec where we get the benefit of the services of many cooks who have been in the lumber camps. We also have a system of messing officers in the units and not simply at headquarters, and I am disappointed to hear my hon. friend's view about Valcartier. I shall certainly look into the matter. I had an idea that under the commandant, Colonel Gaudreau, the administration was pretty good. Since cooking is a very important part of administration I shall look into the matter. I thank the hon. member for having brought it to my attention because that is the only way of knowing about it.


Pierre Gauthier: The complaint was not from officers but from privates.
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James Layton Ralston: I am talking about the men's mess. I did not have the privilege pf a meal in the officer's mess there.
My hon. friend referred to venereal disease and correctly pointed out that there is a considerable additional load on Quebec and particularly Montreal, because of the tremendous transient population going through there. He realizes, as we all do, that it is a civilian problem and has to be dealt with, no matter Jvhere the population may come from. All I say to him is that it does put on these communities an additional responsibility. The services are endeavouring to do all they can to help in the way of tracing down sources of infection and giving information to the civilian authorities, and real progress is being made. I am speaking of Montreal particularly; I have not as much information about the city of Quebec. The manner in which the Montreal authorities took over the matter when it was brought to their attention by Major-General Renaud gives me hope that there will be substantial improvement there.
My hon. friend spoke of precautions taken and treatment given in the army as creating a feeling of confidence. It is not intended to do that. At the same time the services cannot neglect these precautions, and the result my hon. friend speaks of is perhaps a psychological result. Certainly we shall see to it that warnings are given. These are only precautions; that is all they are, and certain risks are run.
The hon. member spoke also of military medical officers not having experience in the treatment of venereal disease. It is true that up to six months ago upon the subject of venereal diseases the army itself did not give military medical officers any special instructions. They had only such knowledge as the medical profession and schools give in the treatment of that disease; but since Colonel Williams has been in charge of the matter we have had a venereal control officer in every district and his job is to instruct the medical officers with regard to treatment. My hon. friend knows far more about the treatment of those diseases than I possibly can, but I am instructed that under the regime that has been inaugurated the treatment is very much more simple than before. The suggestion my hon. friend made, that officers did not have a long enough time to treat a patient, seems to me hardly to hold, at least in connection with V.D.G., because as I understand it that treatment is not given in hospital. A man is not taken off parade but is treated by the use of sulpha drugs and tablets and things of that sort, and there does not have to be constant attention by a medical officer.


Pierre Gauthier: It is all right to take pills, but direct control under a medical officer is important. -


James Layton Ralston: I am pointing out that the need for constant treatment and attention does not exist to the same degree as if a man were in hospital or in a sick bay. May I say this, and I think it is something concerning which we can take satisfaction, if one can take any satisfaction in this very serious matter. We find this record, that whereas in 1940-I am speaking now of the army-the number of infections in Canada was sixty-two out of every one thousand; in 1943 that number was brought down to thirty-two out of every thousand. Therefore, distinct progress has been made. With regard to the treatment of syphilis the treatment that is given depends, as I understand it, altogether on the particular case. One cannot lay down any rule about it. As I understand it, the treatment is intermittent and there does not necessarily have to be the constant attention of the medical officer. Many of these cases are treated in hospital where, of course, the man has constant attention.
My hon. friend spoke of malingerers. I agree with him in regard to the difficulty of telling a malingerer from a genuinely sick man. There again we have tried to do something to meet the situation. As I said the other night the term "psychiatrist" was a fearsome one. I really did not understand fully what it meant, and I was a little doubtful of introducing anybody in the profession of that name into the army. These men have come into the army. We have sixty-three of them in the army at the present time. My hon. friend is a medical doctor, and he will know better than I do whether or not they are useful. I wish to say this exactly as' I understand it. In a case where the psychiatrist is called in, the medical officer examines the man who complains of a disability of some kind. The medical officer can find no reason for that disability; that is to say, by all the tests he makes he can find no reason for disability. He then has an opportunity to call in a psychiatrist. I would think the practice would be for the medical officer to consult the psychiatrist to find out whether or not in his opinion the man was a malingerer or whether it was a genuine case of disability.
My hon. friend speaks of the fact that there is danger in our assuming that men are simulating disease, are malingering, when they are really sick. He picked out the defaulter and said that the defaulter may have something wrong with him and therefore may not get a

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square deal. We try to eliminate that in every way possible, by examining him mentally and psychologically, as well as physically.


Pierre Gauthier: Even if he is a defaulter he is entitled to the same kind of treatment as the other.


James Layton Ralston: I thoroughly agree with my hon. friend.


Pierre Gauthier: That is why I submit to the minister, it is a dangerous thing in the medical profession.


James Layton Ralston: I thoroughly agree with my hon. friend. I said my hon. friend picked out the worst case, not the best case. But I agree with my hon. friend that the defaulter is entitled to as good a medical examination as anybody else.
My hon. friend spoke of promotions overseas and of the fact that they are not made as rapidly as he would like.


Pierre Gauthier: Promotions in Canada,
not overseas.


James Layton Ralston: I thought my hon. friend said that promotions were not made very fast overseas, whereas at the same time promotions were being made of men in Canada who were veterans of two wars and have never been overseas. I should like my hon. friend to bring that to my attention. I do not mind his naming individuals, if he would like to name them. I know of no case of that kind, where a man is medically fit and is a veteran of two wars and has not been overseas, unless he is a specialist or something of that kind and it has been necessary to keep him here. I should like to know of such cases.


Pierre Gauthier: What I wish to know is why a man who is a veteran of two wars and who has been overseas twice cannot get the promotion he deserves when he is absolutely medically fit, absolutely bilingual and has the experience.


James Layton Ralston: I got my hon. friend completely wrong. My hon. friend has put up a very good case now. My only answer to him can be that the officers under whom the man works either have not considered that he was qualified for promotion or have considered that there was someone who could better fill the job even though he had not had the same experience. The fact that a man is a veteran of two wars does not necessarily qualify him for promotion if the job can be better filled by somebody else.
If my hon. friend has a case in mind I should appreciate it very much if he would bring it to my attention, because I should
like to look into it personally. I have dealt generally with most of the points my hon. friend has raised.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Has the Canadian army set up a typhus commission in Italy similar to the one set up by the United States government, in order to combat typhus in the country they are occupying?


Jean-François Pouliot: Before the minister answers, may I say a word? I am delighted that the hon. member for Portneuf has awakened. It is quite a miracle, because he has been sound asleep for two years with regard to the medical officer business in Quebec.


Pierre Gauthier: I thank the hon. member for Temiscouata.


Jean-François Pouliot: I need no thanks.


Pierre Gauthier: He is very intelligent, polite and delicate.


Jean-François Pouliot: It is the law of nature.


Pierre Gauthier: Oh, yes, but you have some nature.


James Layton Ralston: I undertsand that there is no typhus commission as such. There is a special branch of preventive medicine under the director-general of medical services, and typhus comes under that branch. Of course, my hon. friend understands that there are other diseases of a similar nature to those which are dealt with by that same branch.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Does that branch treat the civilians as well as the men in the army?


James Layton Ralston: In an area like Italy?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Yes. The United States commission went into Naples and they treated 1,300,000 people.


James Layton Ralston: The answer is in the negative.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: What is going to happen in the territory that the Canadian army occupies if the civilians are not looked after? I say that because I have had half a dozen letters from Italy from different men, two of them officers, and they claim that life in some sections is almost unbearable owing to the fact that the lice which carry the typhus fever are there.


James Layton Ralston: I am afraid I cannot give my hon. friend any further information at this stage. I have in mind-and remember that I am only surmising this from what I saw there-that the civil government control,
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which is established, might be administering that particular operation of the medical services, and that service may come under that department. In that connection we have certain of our officers there, but they are in the civilian government administration, the allied military government of occupied territory. There are certain Canadian officers who come under that body, and I would think that probably that commission handled preventive services and that as far as civilians were concerned they would come under that administration. I am going to find out something about it.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Does the army set up in Italy fumigation services similar to that which they have in some of the training camps in order to take care of the men's clothes?


James Layton Ralston: The answer is yes.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Disinfectants?


James Layton Ralston: Yes.


Mr. ADAMSON:: Has the minister any information available as to cures of venereal disease by fever-therapy? Has he any idea of the percentage that can be treated and the results?


James Layton Ralston: We can get statistics on that. I know of cases. I have in mind a man in regard to that matter. That treatment is given sometimes under certain circumstances. If my hon. friend wants statistics I think I can get them.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I should like to know whether it can be made a universal treatment? I do not believe it can. What percentage of venereal diseases has been treated in the army by the fever-therapy method, and what results have been obtained?


James Layton Ralston: I think we can give my hon. friend that. I cannot give it now.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I think it would be of interest to the committee if we could get that information.
There is one thing more I should like to ask in connection with the induction centres at the district depots, with regard to the psychiatric examination of the incoming personnel. Could the minister say what percentage are rejected for psychiatric reasons? I refer specifically to what are termed morons, men in low mental categories. Are figures available in that connection?


James Layton Ralston: There are figures which I should like to look up and check. I gave some

figures to the committee last year. The reason for my hesitation is that I do not think it would be correct to class those who happen to be rejected as morons.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I agree entirely, but I
believe there is a special classification for those below a certain mental age, and I think "moron" is the official term used.


James Layton Ralston: I will get the information.


Mr. GLADSTONE :: In the case of soldiers being invalided home, is any advance notice given to the relatives where the injuries are of a very serious nature, such as multiple amputations, facial deformities and, so on? I am told that some men have been met at the station by their relatives and that sometimes the meetings have had disastrous effects. Might it not be advisable in some instances to have the first meeting take place after the soldier is comfortably in hospital?


James Layton Ralston: I am glad that question is
asked, because yesterday I was chasing down a rumour that I heard, and I shall tell the committee what it was. It was stated that at a certain station here, and the station was named, a man who had both arms and both legs amputated was carried off the train, and that his relatives had not been advised of it.


Robert William Gladstone: I heard the same
report.


James Layton Ralston: I tried to run down that rumour, and the director-general of medical services has looked into it also. We can find no such case. I will tell the committee of what may be the case which gave rise to this rumour. That was the case of a man who lost both his arms while on manoeuvres in England; he pulled the pin of a hand grenade and it blew off both arms. I saw that man in England myself. When I came home I wrote his wife about him, and I know she was aware of the extent of his injuries. I took a personal interest in that case, with particular reference to the possibility of getting appliances for that man before he came home. If my hon. friend can give me any information that will enable me to track down that report I should be very grateful, because I do not believe such a case exists.


Robert William Gladstone: Of course the point is that if there should be such a case, could not precautions be taken to lessen the effect upon the relatives?


James Layton Ralston: Certainly they could. The committee will understand that the relatives would be advised in the regular course of hospital reports just what the accident or disability was. I felt very badly about this man

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coming home without appliances. The provision at that time was that appliances were not issued on the other side because they wanted them fitted here; but I cabled over aqd and made special arrangements so that he had the appliances and used them on the boat before he arrived here. As a matter of fact, I had exactly the same case in my own battalion in the last war. Hon. members of the committee may know that to-day this young man is secretary of the Saskatchewan law association, having put himself through college even with that disability. I felt sure I could give some comfort to the wife of this man if I called that fact to her attention.


Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: I wish to ask the
minister a question in regard to the matter of services. There is in Toronto a voluntary organization that meets casualty trains as they come in, bringing the relatives of the men on board. Sometimes it is three or four o'clock in the morning when the train comes in, but they bring the wives and1 children of the men to meet them. Of course there is only one way to take care of them, namely, to drive them to the station and then drive them home.


James Layton Ralston: That is the wives and children?


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Yes. Some time ago I had some correspondence with the minister about the matter. I know the service the members of this organization are performing, and I want to pay a tribute to them for it. I was wondering if satisfactory arrangements had been made in connection with getting gasoline to carry on this work, because, after all, many of these people only have "A" ration books, and when they have to go twenty or thirty miles out into the country to get these people and take them home it means quite a lot. Has any arrangement been made so that the members of this organization may be able to carry on their work?


James Layton Ralston: I cannot tell my hon. friend whether any arrangement has been made, but I shall see whether that is possible. I agree with him that a very worth-while work is being done by the Red Cross, the women's voluntary organizations and other organizations, depending, of course, upon which organization is functioning in a particular locality. I have particular knowledge of the work being done in Halifax when these men are brought off the boats. Just the other night I had a report from the district officer commanding in connection with the arrival of the last hospital ship, and certainly everything that could be done to give care and comfort to those men was done by these loyal 100-62
people who saw these casualties of ours on board the hospital trains. However, I shall look into the matter of gasoline.


John Ritchie MacNicol: What is included in the expression, "personal equipment"?


James Layton Ralston: That is the actual personal equipment of a man. It is the steel helmet, the web equipment, the ground sheets and the anti-gas equipment.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It has nothing to do with rifles, for instance?


James Layton Ralston: No.


Mr. GILLIS:: I should like to inquire a little further about this psychiatry business; it rather intrigues me. The minister stated that there were sixty-three psychiatrists in the service. How many of them are in Canada, and how many are overseas? When is the psychiatrist called in, and is that done on the advice of the medical authorities? As I understand it, a psychiatrist is not one who prescribes medicine.


James Layton Ralston: Oh, yes, he does. They are qualified medical practitioners.


Clarence Gillis: No doubt that is so, but they specialize in mental disease; that is their particular line in the service. What I am trying to get at is when it is considered necessary to call in a psychiatrist, and whether it is done solely on the recommendation of the medical officer who is charged with the exclusive responsibility of looking after the medical end of it. I am trying to find out just what purpose this particular officer serves. I have in mind one of the first psychiatrists to practise in Canada, Doctor Cathcart. He was brought here from England in 1920 and attached to the Canadian pension commission; and our experiences with that gentleman were not altogether happy. When the pension committee sat in 1940 this subject was thoroughly discussed, as to the application of that particular branch of medicine in connection with the determination of pensions. I think it was almost unanimously agreed by that committee that this line of service was being dispensed with because the particular clause in the act had been removed under which the psychiatrists had operated in the past. Some qualified medical men appeared before the committee and expressed the opinion that in the past it had not been a very satisfactory service. There are sixty-three of these men in the Canadian service-I assume there are not any on the other side because, if a man is mentally and physically equipped to cross the water, he should be all right. What I am trying to

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determine is what makes it necessary for the medical authority in a unit or a camp to send a man to a psychiatrist. What conditions must prevail? When the psychiatrist makes a decision, to whom does he report? Who is the judge as to whether the particular examine tion is the last word? I know back in 1920 and 1921 many of the pensions which had been given for nervous disabilities were discontinued in a sweeping manner, but they were restored later on by the medical authorities in the different military districts. I am simply trying to determine the mechanics in connection with this. I know I am not qualified to pass judgment, but I should like to know something about it.


James Layton Ralston: That is something of a technical nature, and it has developed, I do not know just how recently. I know Doctor Cathcart to whom my hon. friend has referred. This has developed just as personnel selection has developed, and it is an important development. It is something like the personnel manager in business who did not exist twenty years ago but who exists to-day. These men are referred to the psychiatrists as specialists, just as men are referred to chest or eye specialists. When a medical officer fears that a man may have difficulty in making a mental adjustment to life in the army he is referred to a psychiatrist.


Clarence Gillis: He determines his mental condition.


James Layton Ralston: Not his mental condition, his emotional outlook.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: His state of mind.


James Layton Ralston: His state of mind and the possibility of his adjusting himself. I have not been examined myself, but the director-general of medical services is on the floor and I am sure he is listening to this discussion. He belongs to this profession as well as being a medical officer. I believe I have described correctly the use which is made of the psychiatrist, particularly in the army. I am advised by prominent medical men who are not psychiatrists that these men have performed a very useful function and that they have saved us from having a good many men discharged because of mental conditions, particularly nervous conditions. I believe Doctor Cathcart's full title is neuropsychiatrist, or something of that kind, which would indicate that he deals with nervous as well as mental conditions.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Would the minister
describe hypertension?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
James Layton Ralston: Hypertension is high blood pressure, and hypotension is low blood pressure.
6. Signal and wireless equipment, line construction, etc., $23,599,633.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Is radar being used by the army at all, and has it been found satisfactory?


James Layton Ralston: It is used extensively.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I
understood that it had not been found as useful in the army as on the sea.


James Layton Ralston: I am using the word in the generic sense of referring to the various radio equipment used for purposes of detection. It is used extensively in connection with anti-aircraft. As my hon. friend probably knows, a great number of equipment installations have been turned out in Canada at a place not far from where he lives.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Does this item cover equipment for use in Canada for training purposes, or Hoes it just cover equipment being used in Europe?


James Layton Ralston: Both in Canada and Europe and in Italy. It covers all signalling and wireless stones, including searchlights, cable layers, fullerphones, telephone sets, switchboards, charging sets, generators, reception sets, wireless sets, wireless stations, wave-meters, radio direction finding equipment, and so on.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Have many pieces of intercommunication equipment been purchased? I refer to the equipment by which an officer can talk back and forth with the field.


James Layton Ralston: That is known as C-58. I cannot tell my friend how many.


John Ritchie MacNicol: They do not need wires?


James Layton Ralston: "Walkie-talkie" is the slang term.


Mr. McGARRY:: Can the minister say whether or not his department assisted in the construction of the telephone line for Cheti-camp to Pleasant Bay in Inverness?


James Layton Ralston: Yes.


Moses Elijah McGarry: Does the minister have the figures?

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James Layton Ralston: I thought it was 85,000, but the officer here tells me he thinks it was $3,000. This was to assist in the construction of a telephone line as part of the aircraft defence corps operations in that particular part of the province.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
7.	Ammunition and bombs, $182,194,664.
Agar Rodney Adamson: Could the minister give a break-down of this item?


James Layton Ralston: This includes small arms and other ammunition. The round figures are as follows:
Small arms	 $48,000,000
Gun ammunition	 86,000,000
Miscellaneous ammunition		46,000,000
The last item includes dummy bombs, grenades, demolition bombs, guncotton, ammunition instruments and gauges.


Grote Stirling: How does the minister explain the large reduction this year?


James Layton Ralston: Because of the tremendous stocks we have on hand which have not been used.


Grote Stirling: Overseas and here?


James Layton Ralston: Overseas and here in
Canada. Perhaps I had better not use the word "tremendous." We have large stocks.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I was just going to ask a question along the lines of that asked by the hon. member for Yale. When I was home I met a number of folk who had been employed in an ammunition plant. If the minister thinks he should not answer the question I am going to ask, it will be all right. They told me they had been laid off. I asked why, and the reply was that apparently there is sufficient ammunition on hand to fight a war for ten years more. I have been wondering if that reply given to me is right, and whether this reduction of $91,000,000 is an indication of what is happening in so many plants that heretofore have been engaged in making ammunition of one kind or another. I find that the same thing is taking place in other plants making machine-guns and equipment of that kind, in which there seems to be a general reduction in production, and the reduction in the vote would seem to indicate that. Will there be a continuous reduction in production?


James Layton Ralston: Production in 1943M4 was so heavy as to cover, I think, practically all the initial requirements; that is, there is a very- large stock per gun as an initial provision, and in addition there is provision for 100-62i
reserve and wastage. In 1943-44 we have, to some extent, produced reserves of some types of ammunition, and the production now is for reserve and wastage.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
8.	Armament, including rifles, machine guns, mortars and guns of all descriptions, $104,819,202.
John Ritchie MacNicol: I have a question to ask on that, but I do not want the minister to answer if he thinks he should not. In Toronto a plant has been manufacturing a very large number of machine guns and other equipment of that nature. It has been rumoured-I am not able to say if it is so-that there has been a large reduction in employment at this plant, which again would indicate that a surplus has been built up and that there may be a continuous reduction in production in the goods covered by this item. Is that correct?


James Layton Ralston: There has been a reduction in some items but not in others.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That would indicate that the information given me was correct.


James Layton Ralston: The largest reduction is in the larger guns, 25-pounders, howitzers, and so on. There is a considerable increase

I am not giving the committee the amount-in the production of machine-guns. A very large order was placed for a certain type of machine gun. I am not so sure, having regard to recent word that I have received, that that order will be filled, but provision is made for it in case the equipment is needed. As a matter of fact, I think a substitution is being made for guns already on hand. In small arms there is a very slight reduction in rifles, for instance.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Can the minister, without any breach of security, give us a rough break-down of small arms production?


James Layton Ralston: Small arms include pistols, rifles, smoke generators, anti-tank rifles, signal pistols and Piats. Does my hon. friend agree with that pronunciation?


Agar Rodney Adamson: I thought the Piats were included in the mortar category.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Has there been a steady reduction in the manufacture of machine-guns?


James Layton Ralston: The provision here is for a considerable increase in the manufacture of one type of machine-gun, a large type. I was saying a moment ago that there is another of that same type of gun on hand, but word which has been received recently makes me think that possibly the amount provided here
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for the manufacture of a certain number of these guns will be very considerably reduced because of lessened production.


Agar Rodney Adamson: What I was wanting to get was an approximate break-down of guns and mortars, two-inch mortars, and so on.


James Layton Ralston: The small arms are pistols, rifles, smoke generators, anti-tank rifles, signal pistols, Piats. The machine-guns include, light, medium and heavy guns and machine carbines. The light machine-gun is in the general classification of machine-gun, not in the small arms, as I may have said inadvertently. Guns, howitzers and mortars include all types of guns, howitzers and mortars, with or without mountings, and bomb-throwers, predictors-the latter being used in anti-aircraft work.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
9.	M.T. vehicles:	trucks, tractors, trailers,
tanks, A.F.Vs., and repair parts, $274,068,547.
John Ritchie MacNicol: Does this item include the vehicular equipment that is piled up and has been piled up in boxes for quite a long time on practically all the sidings all across this province?


James Layton Ralston: This does not cover those vehicles. Those vehicles are on British order and constitute a reserve which is awaiting shipment. The British keep a very large backlog. I could give my hon. friend the number of motor vehicles at present awaiting shipment on sidings. What I said about a heavy British backlog applies also to their spare parts. We have literally acres of space which are filled with boxes of spare parts which could be used over a period of two years. They are awaiting shipment and will be shipped in due course.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Apparently they are
motorcars of one kind or another.


James Layton Ralston: That is right; trucks, and so forth.


John Ritchie MacNicol: All that is British equipment?


James Layton Ralston: What is stored and awaiting shipment is practically all British. I am advised that the proportion of Canadian equipment is extremely small as compared with the British. I understand that they are awaiting special ships to take that particular kind of cargo across.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Where is the backlog of Canadian vehicular equipment stored?


James Layton Ralston: We have reserves in
England, and, as I say, a small proportion of

what my hon. friend sees in the different locations is part of the Canadian backlog. As my hon. friend knows, a very large proportion- I would not say a majority but a substantial proportion-of British units are equipped with Canadian vehicles.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Do the words "repair parts-" appearing in the item, refer to repair parts in repair plants like the large plant at East London and plants in other parts of the province?


James Layton Ralston: Is the question whether those spare parts are for use, in those plants?


John Ritchie MacNicol: Yes.


James Layton Ralston: As my hon. friend probably knows, there are two classes of spare parts. One is the box or boxes of first year's spares, accompanying the vehicle; the other is the second year's spares, which are stored separately. Those are the spares to which I referred a minute ago when I said we had literally acres of buildings filled with these spares, for the British backlog.


John Ritchie MacNicol: By this time next year, if the war continues, they will be very greatly reduced?


James Layton Ralston: It depends. Do I understand that my hon. friend asks whether or not we can expect that this year the item might be substantially reduced?


John Ritchie MacNicol: No. It is reduced this year. The next year.


James Layton Ralston: It is reduced this year because we did not use, as we expected to do, the initial equipment which was made up. Of course a certain amount of it has been used fn manoeuvres and in general training, but I would anticipate that the wastage which we planned for will take place and that next year we shall have to fill in as we did this year, and replace the wastage out of reserve.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: The Department of National Defence send their orders to the Department of Munitions and Supply, do they not?


James Layton Ralston: Yes.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: As regards obsolescence of equipment, an order goes in and Munitions and Supply issue instructions for a certain quantity; it is being manufactured, but things are moving quite a bit these days, so what happens in order to prevent overproduction of obsolete stuff? What is the procedure?

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James Layton Ralston: That is, if there has been a change of design in the course of manufacture?


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Either a change of design or something goes out of use. It is a question of preventing waste.


James Layton Ralston: We simply have to stop that. If a change of design comes into effect suddenly, what is done is to try to make plans for a change-over to the new design as of a certain date. We did that in connection with tanks, as a matter of fact. So many tanks were to be made of an existing pattern. In the meantime provision was made for the tooling up for a new pattern; that is, for the changes in order to turn out the new pattern; and as of a certain date we started the manufacture of the new type. My hon. friend will understand that when I say "a new type" it does not mean a brand-new turret; but if the ring was larger or the stowage space was changed or the signal equipment was changed, there might also have to be a different foot-plate. In large changes, changes which would be very difficult to make in the course of running a certain number of turrets or a certain number of tanks, it is better to have certainty and run so many rather than to change over all at once.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: What I have in mind is this. If an article becomes obsolete, does the department say to Munitions and Supply, "we don't want it any more"? Do you cancel it right away, or what?


James Layton Ralston: I do not think the word "obsolete" is quite a fair term to use in connection with most articles of military equipment which are actually in process of being turned out. There are improvements like the rifle, Marks I, II and III; there are improvements in tanks like Marks I, II and III, but Mark III is not obsolete because of the fact that Mark IV is being turned out; Mark III can be used and is being used; and not only would it be bad economics, but the troops might be left without equipment if we said, "all Mark III is out; start manufacturing Mark IV". There has to be a gradual transition from one to the other.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I do not want to hold the committee up unnecessarily, but this is an item of considerably over a quarter of a billion dollars. Could the minister give some idea of the percentage of this that goes_ in, say, armoured fighting vehicles such as carriers, tanks, and artillery vehicles, dragons, and ordinary M.T.? If the figures are available I think the committee would be interested, provided that the information does not transgress any security regulation.


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend is asking about armoured vehicles vis-a-vis the ordinary commercial vehicles?


Agar Rodney Adamson: Track vehicles and fighting vehicles and purely M.T.


James Layton Ralston: I would say that the percentage is as three to two-A.F.Vs. three and commercial vehicles, two. When I say commercial vehicles I mean load-carrying vehicles.


Agar Rodney Adamson: What the Americans call prime movers and ordinary wheeled vehicles.


James Layton Ralston: I am not familiar with that term, but load-carrying vehicles vis-a-vis A.F.V. are two to three.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Would you call the dragon or the artillery carrier an A.F.V.?


James Layton Ralston: It is a "B" vehicle in the load-carrying vehicle class, not in the A.F.V.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I have been in a number of plants lately in which I have seen considerable quantities of valuable and expensive material which now, apparently, is not to be used, and I have been wondering how in the world all this stuff was ordered. Presumably a requisition comes in to somebody in the department who in turn issues an order. On what basis does the man who issues the requisition issue it? From whom does he get the order to issue it? Are his requisitions checked? If so, how do these considerable quantities of material accumulate in plants? I have lately been in a number of plants, and from every plant in Canada, I assume, material is being turned over to this new crown company to sell. Private business could not very well pile up material like that-material which is not going to be used-and remain in business.


James Layton Ralston: Let me say that generally changes of that kind are due to changes in war conditions which have necessitated changes in the war establishments of equipment. I will give my hon. friend one instance: I dealt with it the other night after I left the house. We had ordered 2,400 of a certain kind of gun. Requisitions were put in and material assembled, and I have no doubt that some machining was done on it. Suddenly we got a wire that a change in war establishment called for something like 366 instead of 2,400. This resulted from conditions which I could explain to my hon. friend and which would be understood readily by him and by the rest of the committee, conditions which had not been foreseen. The war has improved in that' particular sphere, and as a result a change has been made. Consequently there has been a cancellatic., which means, of course, that
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there will be some wastage in machining and things of that kind. The instance I mention will not be the only one. There are on my desk all the time cancellations which involve changes of this kind. The war was going a certain way, and when certain activities were anticipated, orders were put; otherwise I would have been "on. the mat" for not having the equipment. The situation has changed and, as a result, the necessity for equipment, and cancellations have been made. I would like to know that plant. Is my hon. friend sure in that case that the material is not going to be used?


John Ritchie MacNicol: I do not care to give the name of the plant because all the information was given me in confidence, and I am not finding fault with it, having had a lot to do with business, so that I appreciate the fact that there will be many changes in design. It would mean, however, that much material purchased would be left lying there. The information given me is that when the new crown company is set up to sell the material-I do not know whether it has been announced in the house that it will be set up-


James Layton Ralston: The War Assets Corporation?


John Ritchie MacNicol: Has it been set up in the house?


James Layton Ralston: I do not think it has.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It is going to be, because there was something in the newspaper about it this morning. I presume that company will endeavour to sell this material. From what I saw of this material lying around, when this new company is set up it should at once get possession of warehouses somewhere, so that this material, which is first class, can be stored and sold at some future time.


James Layton Ralston: What was set up was Crown Assets Allocation Committee, and the handling is done by War Assets Corporation, which is now being set up. That has to do not simply with equipment of properties and things of that kind, and I know that the services are busy dealing with the items referred to by the hon. member for St. Paul's, which can be regarded as completely obsolete. Those are the only items which the services feel justified in discussing with the Crown Assets Allocation Committee at the present time, because we do not know how long the war will last and we do not propose to hand over to War Assets Corporation any of that material until we know that it is obsolete.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Does the army buy the planes or gliders that carry

paratroopers, or are they controlled by the air force? They are called Hannibals.


Gordon Graydon: Referring to the disposal of crown assets by War Assets Corporation, or whatever body will have the disposition of these assets when the war is over, or while it is on, I had two suggestions during the past month from men overseas at the front who are anxious that all the jeeps should not be disposed of before they come back. Apparently there is a considerable demand, which has gone through the forces to a great extent, because if I have had two requests I am sure that members from all parts of Canada must have been showered with similar suggestions. I think the minister ought to give consideration to this particular suggestion, because, after all, there is really nothing too good for those who have been fighting for us, and if they have a desire for some of the equipment we ought, in our arrangements for its disposal, to consider their wishes.


James Layton Ralston: I will take a note of it.


Grote Stirling: Is the same anxiety exhibited by those who want tommyguns?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
10.	Operating cost of mechanical transport: Fuel, maintenance, etc. (not including repair parts), $30,044,487.
John Ritchie MacNicol: I wish to ask a question with reference to gasoline. In visiting camps and plants of one kind or another I have observed what appears to be great wastage in the use of gasoline. For instance, if an officer or a manufacturer wants to get information in Ottawa he jumps into a plane and flies to Ottawa, and that takes a considerable quantity of gasoline. His errand might or might not be of any great importance, necessitating his coming at that speed. He might have taken a train to come here. When you take the aggregate, according to the information given me, the wastage in gasoline is terrific, through the use of aeroplanes going back and forth on journeys that may or may not be of particular consequence.


James Layton Ralston: Heaven forbid that I should criticize the air force with regard to the use of planes-


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am not speaking of the air force but of military officers.


James Layton Ralston: The air force have been more than considerate to the army and to the minister particularly in connection with the use of planes. I do not know of any cases and I should like to look into the matter, but I may say to my hon. friend that the

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instructions are definite to officers not to use planes or cars if/ trains can be used, unless time can be saved which it is necessary to save. I do not know what case my hon. friend refers to, but I do not think they jump into planes every time they want to go anywhere. As I understand it, flying in planes must receive the approval of national defence headquarters except in the case of the minister, who gives his own approval. This is a new one. I expected my hon. friend to complain of the use of military cars, because I hear that all the time; but I did not know that military officers were using planes excessively.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I do not mean an officer on active service, but an officer stationed at some plant-


James Layton Ralston: Speaking at some plant?


John Ritchie MacNicol: Stationed at some plant. I am not referring to the fighting service.


James Layton Ralston: I beg the hon. gentleman's pardon. Does he mean a civilian officer?


John Ritchie MacNicol: I would not know whether he was a civilian or not, but an officer associated with the government in some way in a plant that has to do with the making of planes. He might be an inspector. ,


James Layton Ralston: He uses a plane to go from there to somewhere else?


John Ritchie MacNicol: He flies here or elsewhere, wherever he may wish to go.


James Layton Ralston: That is not my family; that is all I can say.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Has the minister come to any set routine about accidents between military and civilian vehicles? There used to be a great deal of trouble. Has any formula been worked out? At one time the crown assumed no obligation for an accident. I do not know whether fiat had to be obtained to sue the crown. Has this matter been settled, and, if so, what is the formula?


James Layton Ralston: Either by passing an order under the War Measures act, or by statute, I do not remember which, that situation was altered last year and provision was made so that action can be brought, as I remember, as if the soldier were the employee of a private corporation. That is the effect of it, but I shall have to look up the act. I am sure, however, the change has been made and we have had the greatest success in the settlement of claims. We have a procedure which is working well whereby meritorious claims are settled without action at all. In England we have a claims commission; in the United
States we settle in a similar way, and they have been successful from the point of view both of the claimant and of the department.


Gordon Graydon: May I ask what part of item No. 10 is gasoline?


James Layton Ralston: It is all gasoline, oil, grease, anti-freeze. That includes not only loadcarrying vehicles, but tanks and other armoured fighting vehicles as well. As my hon. friend sees, there is a decrease of about $5,000,000; that is attributable to reduction in the number of vehicles in the home war establishment, and a reduction in operating cost.


Gordon Graydon: As I understand it, there is nothing in this item which has to do with overseas operations?


James Layton Ralston: Eighty per cent is for
overseas.


Gordon Graydon: That is the entire vote for fuel and mechanical transport cost, operating cost, maintenance, et cetera, not including repair parts.


James Layton Ralston: It includes overseas and all theatres of operation.


Gordon Graydon: In that amount how much is for fuel?


Agar Rodney Adamson: The minister mentioned water transport. Does he mean assault landing craft and tank landing craft?


James Layton Ralston: I mean the little boats for water transport. We have one of them at least in Halifax harbour, I think.


Agar Rodney Adamson: There was a mail service in Nova Scotia as well?


James Layton Ralston: There is a boat up the British Columbia coast from Vancouver, too.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Yes; it does not include the tank landing craft and the assault landing craft?


James Layton Ralston: It will include that, I think, yes. As a matter of fact, about eighty per cent of this item is for overseas. I would think it would include that.


Gordon Graydon: The minister said that he would get me some information.


James Layton Ralston: Did my hon. friend ask another question?


Gordon Graydon: I asked what part of item No. 10 was fuel?


James Layton Ralston: I am sorry I cannot give my hon. friend the information at the moment. As a matter of fact, the gasoline, oil, grease and anti-freeze for overseas are all under a
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capitation rate with the British government; that is to say, it is all paid on a per diem basis. The cost of fuel gasoline in Canada is something like $4,000,000. Part of the oil is for fuel and part is for lubricating, but I cannot break it down.


Gordon Graydon: I was not anxious to have any special break-down, but I should like to have some idea as to how much fuel is being used, perhaps for other reasons, as the discussion progresses.


James Layton Ralston: I cannot give my hon. friend what proportion of that big item for overseas is fuel as compared with the other. It is all lumped together.


Gordon Graydon: I think the minister has given me sufficient information now.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Did I understand the minister to say that the amount of fuel, gasoline, is only $4,000,000?


James Layton Ralston: In Canada, yes.


John Ritchie MacNicol: This is not for outside Canada?


James Layton Ralston: I said the item was $30,000,000 altogether; of that, $24,000,0000 represents estimated overseas expenditures. I cannot break that down for the committee into oil, gasoline and anti-freeze, because that $24,000,000 is based on what we call a capitation rate, which we pay the British government for servicing our troops at so much a day. They provide the oil, lubricants, and everything else. They do not measure out the gallons. They say, "We will provide you with oil, lubricant, anti-freeze and so on at a per diem rate." I have here the amount for gasoline in Canada. It is $4,000,000.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Shall the item carry?


John Ritchie MacNicol: Mr. Chairman, you are getting along very nicely. We have voted almost $1,500,000,000.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I am doing the best I can. I do not want to urge the committee in any way, shape or form. However, when I think the time is ripe to call an item I call it.


John Ritchie MacNicol: We are doing our best to help you. It struck me that the amount of $4,000,000 was a very small amount if it includes the fighting equipment in Italy and the ships at sea everywhere.


James Layton Ralston: Not ships.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Not the ships; but it includes all the theatres in which our men are fighting?


James Layton Ralston: It includes the fighting
material.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It does?


James Layton Ralston: It is a capitation method.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I thought it would have been very much more; we have so many troops there.


James Layton Ralston: The amount of $24,000,000 is all that is chargeable under this head by the British government.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That covers the whole business?


James Layton Ralston: That is right.


John Ritchie MacNicol: So far as gasoline and oil is concerned with respect to Canada's war effort in the old country and in Europe?


James Layton Ralston: I have the exact rate and the number of days. It is all charged on a capitation rate.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
11.	Sundries, including printing, stationery, telephones, telegrams and other costs not included in above items, $24,246,593.
James Arthur Ross: I have a question I should like to ask and I do not see any other item on which to ask it. What has been the actual cost of recruiting for the army? H we have the actual cost for the army we might break it down per capita. I do not know whether it is figured out on that basis or not. I had in mind recruiting officers, their offices and staffs. I think the whole business has been rather costly to this country for the results obtained. I have in mind recruiting parties that go through the country. They have an officer, an N.C.O. and in some cases two or three C.W.A.C.S. They come into a community and operate dances in it. They hire a hall and pay for an orchestra. In some instances they do not get any recruits. These are actual facts. That, coupled with the coloured posters and the printing, I am sure, costs this country quite an item. I believe there should be a different system worked out, a system which would not be nearly so costly in man or woman hours or dollars and cents per recruit obtained. I should like to have those figures.


James Layton Ralston: I have not the figures of the number of men who are involved. But I wish to say to the committee and to my hon. friend that I do not agree with him for a single instant. I say that it costs this country two or three million dollars every time there is a loan to influence and to persuade the peo-

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pie of Canada to subscribe their money to the loan. I suggest that if it costs $1,500,000 to get 48,000 or 50,000 men to volunteer who may be called upon to give their lives for this country it is worth it.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Hear, hear.


James Layton Ralston: I say to my hon. friend that I do not think it lies in the mouths of any one of us to say it is too much. It seems to me that we underrate the value of recruiting and the value of volunteering. If we had half the effort put into recruiting that is put into those war loans to get people to subscribe their money for a perfectly good bond, we would have a good deal more recruiting than we have. When I see what is done in the way of war loans-and I do not deprecate it in the slightest, for it is a fine thing to have us stir up the enthusiasm of our people-I do not think too much is done for recruiting. In war loans we lend our army equipment; we do everything we possibly can. What for? In order to influence our citizens to subscribe for a perfectly good bond with the promise of the Dominion of Canada to pay it back in twelve or fifteen years. If we do a little of that sort of thing in order to persuade men to enlist in the army, to give their lives for their country, I do not think parliament should be at all niggardly in the way of voting that money.


James Arthur Ross: What did the minister say the cost was?


James Layton Ralston: I thought the figure just included the posters, and that sort of thing, but it includes the personnel as well, and the cost in 1942-43 was $1,290,000 in round figures. The cost for the first nine months of the current fiscal year, as it has been figured out here, including personnel, was $1,138,000. That is about half the cost of one war loan.


James Arthur Ross: How many recruits were obtained?


James Layton Ralston: About forty-eight thousand.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Would the minister say why this item is up $10,000,000 this year?


James Layton Ralston: The increase in the cost of printing and stationery is due to higher per man cost overseas; special training equipment has been increased, and there is a large increase in sundries, due principally to an increase of $6,500,000 for telephone and wireless construction and maintenance, which was formerly included under operating expenses of property. That $6,500,000 is the big item in the increase of $10,000,000.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: Are these elaborate recruiting huts which are stationed all over the country still in use? There is one near the cenotaph in Ottawa, and I wondered if they were all still in use.


James Layton Ralston: I understand that the one in Ottawa to which my hon. friend refers is the recruiting hut for the C.W.A.C.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: That has been changed over, has it?


James Layton Ralston: It has been used for that purpose for the best part of a year, at least.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: Are they being used for that purpose all over the country?


James Layton Ralston: I do not know; I have not seen any others.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: The minister has not a break-down of the cost of operating those huts?


James Layton Ralston: No, but I think the cost would come under this item.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Sundry services, $22,315,827.
Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I should like to know from the minister and the committee whether the sub-item should be considered individually, or whether the items will be taken together.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Will the minister explain this item?


James Layton Ralston: Certainly. There is an experimental station at Suffield, for which $1,916,810 is provided. Internment operations will cost $3,730,717; the inspection board of the United Kingdom and Canada, $10,589,000; departmental administration, $1,774,000; dependents' allowance board, $805,300 and dependents' supplementary grants fund-that is, the dependents' board of trustees-$3,500,-000. The total is practically the same as last year. It is pointed out to me that these figures are not strictly comparable, due to changes in accounting procedures resulting in different groupings of expenditures in the various years, and this really applies to all the items with which we have deen dealing.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Is the experimental station new this year?


James Layton Ralston: No; that was bought two years ago. This is the operating cost.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: This is the first time it has been shown in the item.
. War Appropriation-Army


James Layton Ralston: It was included last year in part A-army services.


Mr. GERSHAW:: I should like to ask a few questions with regard to the Suffield experimental station. In the first place, it is presumed to be a permanent station, and the question of building a few cottages as homes for the officers has come up from time to time, but nothing has been done. Then there is a rather more serious problem, in that the block takes in quite an area where the grass is fairly good, while the grass outside that area has been eaten off. A large part of this area is not being used for experimental purposes, according to my information, and those on the borders of the block who are so short of grass find it very exasperating, when they cannot get grass, to see that the grass within this field is not being used. There is also a more serious problem agitating the minds of the people of that locality, that is, the two prairie fires which were started within the area and which spread far beyond it. I personally saw a fire over a distance of forty miles, at least twelve to fifteen miles deep, which burned a lot of valuable grass. These people feel that they should be compensated for the loss of this grass, but month after month goes by and no compensation is given. I should like the minister to offer some indication as to whether their case is in good standing and whether they can hope to get any compensation for their loss.


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend has spoken of two things. I shall look into the matter of cottages. In point of fact I have not been near Suffield for nearly nine months at least, perhaps longer, but I shall look into that question. When he speaks of compensation on account of fire I presume he means fire which started within the area?


Frederick William Gershaw: Yes.


James Layton Ralston: That matter has not been brought to my attention previously. Certainly it sounds as if it had some merit, but I do not want to say anything definite. I shall look into it personally.


Frederick William Gershaw: It has been before the officers of the department.


James Layton Ralston: There must be some "catch" in it that I do not know about, but I shall look into it personally.


James Arthur Ross: What would be covered in the last item of 83,500,000 for the dependents' supplementary grant fund?


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I asked the minister and the committee whether these subdivisions
of the last item should be discussed separately or all together.


James Layton Ralston: I have read all the items and, as I understand it, hon. members are asking questions about them. I am perfectly satisfied with that procedure. The item of
83,500,000	is to provide for the amounts to be paid out by the dependents' board of trustees by way of supplementary grants. As I said, this is a round figure. The amount paid out last year was $1,285,000.


James Arthur Ross: I just wondered if it came under the trustees.


James Layton Ralston: Yes.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: Under what section
could I discuss the matter of proving ranges? I have been trying to find the appropriate item, though I suppose I could have asked the question at almost any time.


James Layton Ralston: I think that would come under the inspection board, which is included in this item.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: Then what will be done in cases where damage is being done to property in close proximity to these ranges? Has any policy been laid down? There is a matter I want to take up seriously in that connection, and I should like a little guidance on it.


James Layton Ralston: Another hon. member
asked me the same thing. Is my hon. friend talking about the proving range near Hamilton?


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: No, it is near St, Catharines.


James Layton Ralston: If my hon. friend will take it up with me I shall be very glad to look into it. As a matter of fact, I have not dealt with any of these cases at all; they have been dealt with by the inspection board. Any case that is thought necessary to be referred to the department comes to the deputy minister, but I shall look into anything my hon. friend cares to take up with me. Damage has been done by what; by concussion?


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: Yes, damage to nearby property by the concussion.


James Layton Ralston: I shall look into it.


Gordon Graydon: I think the minister will agree that we have made pretty good progress

Northwest Staging Route
on his estimates to-night. A number of questions may arise to-morrow, as we finish with his department, but I should like to make a suggestion which may facilitate the discussion and bring it to an end more quickly. Would he mind giving a statement in a simplified form as to how many N.R.M.A. men there are in the Canadian army. I have listened to my hon. friend give details of the duties performed by these men, but I am not just clear as to the actual total.


James Layton Ralston: I will make a guess now which I will confirm later. There are between
70,000	and 73,000; I think I said over 70,000 before, but I will confirm that. The committee does not want to pass this item tonight?


Gordon Graydon: I think not. We have made pretty goc d progress. Do not kill the goose that lays the golden egg.
Item stands.
Progress reported.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Tuesday, February 29, 1944