1944-03-29

Mr. SPEAKER:: I have the honour to inform the house that I have received the following communication:
Ottawa, March 29, 1944.
Sir:-I have the honour to inform you that the Hon. Thibaudeau Rinfret, Chief Justice of Canada, acting as deputy of His Excellency the Governor General, will proceed to the Senate Chamber on Friday, 31st March, at 5.45 p.m., for the purpose of giving the royal assent to certain bills.
I have the honour to be,
Sir,
Your obedient servant,
F. L. C. Pereira, Assistant Secretary to the Governor General.
The Honourable	.
The Speaker of the House of Commons, Ottawa.



JUDGES ACT


[Stage Direction]
Mr. T. L. CHURCH (Broadview) moved the first reading of Bill No. 52, to amend the Judges Act.
He said: This bill consists of two clauses and is the same as the one I introduced last year. The first section prohibits judges from acting as commissioners or arbitrators. The second section states that judges are to be bound by decision of court of final appeal.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. ROEBUCK:: 1.	Has written acknowledgment of amount of compulsory savings standing to their credit been given taxpayers by the government?
2.	If not, when will it do so?


Mr. GIBSON:: 1.	Yes, already over 800,000 certificates of compulsory savings have been issued in connection with the 1942 income.
2.	Answered by No. 1.

Questions


WARTIME HOUSING-NORTH VANCOUVER
Mr. SINCLAIR:: 1.	Wliat is the amount of money spent by Wartime Housing in north Vancouver on, (a) houses; (b) staff houses; (c) roads, sewers, etc.?
2.	What is the unit cost of, (a) the six-room house; (b) the four-room house?
3.	What is the monthly rental of, (a) the six-room house; (b) the four-room house?
4.	What is the total annual payment made to the city of north Vancouver by Wartime Housing in lieu of taxes?
5.	What are the names, addresses and places of employment of all occupants of the houses as at February 29, 1944?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: 1.	(a) $1,913,480.75.
(b)	S 80,507.
Note-special buildings-$147,299.
(c)	$ 793,546.34.
2.	(a) $	3,138.
(b) (i) 4-roomed house, small-$2,674. (ii) 4-roomed house, large-$2,816.
3.	(a) $27.
(b) (i) 4-roomed house, small-$20.
(ii) 4-roomed house, large-$22.
4.	$19,524.
5.	As over 700 houses are involved, the information asked for is not readily available. A very careful investigation is made of all prospective tenants to insure 100 per cent occupancy by war workers only in houses built by wartime housing limited.


PRODUCTION OP GIN AND WHISKY
Mr. McGREGOR:: What amount of, (a) gin; (b) whisky, was produced in Canada during the year 1943?


Mr. GIBSON:: During the calendar year 1943, 24,315,935.23 proof gallons of spirits were produced in Canada. We have no information regarding the class or character of spirits produced.


R.C.A.F.-BOMBING AND GUNNERY SCHOOLS
Mr. BENCE:: -
1.	How many R.C.A.F. bombing and gunnery schools were in service in Canada on January 1, 1944?
2.	What were the numbers of such schools, and where were they located?
3.	Which of such schools are being closed in 1944?
4.	How many hours during the calendar year 1943 were the trainees in each of such schools prevented from performing their bombing exercises through poor visibility?


Mr. MACMILLAN:: 1. 10.
2.	Bombing and gunnery school No. 1-Jarvis, Ont.
No. 2-Mossbank, Sask.
*No. 3-Macdonald, Man.
No. 4-Fingal, Ont.
No. 5-Dafoe, Sask.
No. 6-Mountain View, Ont.


Paulson, Man.
No. 8-Lethbridge, Alta.
*No. 9-Mont Joli, P.Q.
*No. 10-Mount Pleasant, P.E.I.
At these three schools, air gunners are trained only and no bombing exercises are flown.
3.	No. 2 bombing and gunnery school, Mossbank, Sask.; No. 8 bombing and gunnery school, Lethbridge, Alta.
4.	Shown in Appendix "A" below are the numbers of days and nights during the year 1943 which were unfit for flying bombing exercises. Weather records show only the number of half-days and half-nights which were unsuitable for flying and do not specify the definite reason, such as, low visibility, low cloud height, snow conditions, etc.
Appendix "A"
Summary of Unfit Flying Weather R.C.A.F.
Bombing and Gunnery Schools Period-Jan. 1, 1943 to Dec. 31, 1943
School	Days	NightsNo. 1 B.G.S., Jarvis, Ont	128	189No. 2 B.G.S., Mossbank, Sask.	89	101iNo. 4 B.G.S., Fingal, Ont	llli	119iNo. 5 B.G.S., Dafoe, Sask. ...	103	130No. 6 B.G.S., Mountain View,	80	146No. 7 B.G.S., Paulson, Man. ..	45	113iNo. 8 B.G.S., Lethbridge, Alta.	74i	93


PRISONERS OF WAR-MEDICAL AND DENTAL SERVICES
Mr. NICHOLSON:: What is the ratio of Canadian medical doctors and dentists per thousand German prisoners-of-war in the internment camps in Canada?


Mr. MACDONALD (Halifax):: R.C.A.M.C. medical officers, 1 <to 1292; C.D.C. dental officers, 1 to 3507.
In addition to caring for the health of the prisoners of war, the medical and dental
Questions

officers are responsible for attending to the medical and dental needs of the army guards stationed at prisoner of war camps.


WARTIME INFORMATION BOARD-ABBE KOTOWSKI
Mr. DORION:: 1.	On what date did Abbe Kotowski enter Canada?
2.	Where did he come from?
3.	What were his domiciles or residences since August, 1939?
4.	What is his nationality?
5.	Is he still in Canada? If not, when did he
leave?	'
6.	At whose request did he come to Canada?
7.	At whose suggestion did he come to this country?
8.	What was his work before arriving in Canada?
9.	What were the conditions of his entry to Canada?
10.	What were his activities in Canada?
11.	Did he perform any work in connection with the wartime information board?
12.	If so, of what nature, and what were his instructions from the said board?
13.	Has a report been made to the wartime information board or to the government by Abbe Kotowski, or by someone else, in connection with his activities?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	Reverend Kotowski entered Canada on December 8, 1942.
2.	Brazil.
3.	See answer to 8 below.
4.	Polish.
5.	No. Reverend Kotowski left Canada on June 7, 1943.
6.	& 7. Reverend Kotowski came to Canada at the invitation of the former Department of Public Information, (the functions of which were taken over by wartime information board), with the concurrence of the Department of External Affairs.
8.	Reverend Kotowski is a doctor in political and social sciences. 1920-1925 he pursued advanced studies in philosophy at Poznan and Lyon. In 1926 he was a member of the Polish mission in France (Lyon). In 1927, Cardinal Hlond, Primate of Poland, assigned him the spiritual ministration of Poles in Belgium, the Netherlands and Denmark. In 1929 he was professor at the Lycee Stefan Zeromski and a member of the Institute of Social Sciences at Warsaw. In September 1939, he was in W'arsaw and escaped to eastern Poland where he was interned for six weeks. He finally reached Paris via Sweden. Between February and June 1940, he was chaplain of the Polish Mission at St-Maur-des-Fosses,

suburb of Paris, and later at Biarritz. From October 1940 to November, 1942, he was in Brazil attached to the Barnabite Fathers and Chaplain of the Notre-Dame de Lourdes Order as professor of Philosophy and Moral Theology.
9.	Reverend Kotowski entered Canada in compliance with the usual immigration requirements.
10.	Reverend Kotowski came to Canada to give a first hand account of the events in Poland since the outbreak of the war.
11.	Answered by 7 and 10.
12.	Reverend Kotowski received no special instructions from wartime information board.
13.	A report was made to the wartime information board by Father Kotowski on the meetings he addressed in Canada.


LABOUR CONDITIONS-EQUAL WAGES TO MEN AND WOMEN
Mrs. NIELSEN:: According to information on wage rates collected by the Department of Labour or the national war labour board-1. Taking a representative sample of firms employing more than 100 workers each, what proportion are paying equal wages to men and women on similar jobs?
2.	How many women are employed in those firms which the sample showed to be paying equal wages to men and women on similar jobs?


Mr. MARTIN:: The hon. member has
spoken to me about this question. I believe I represent her wishes when I ask that the question be dropped.
Question dropped.


LABOUR CONDITIONS-EDMONTON COAL MINES
Mr. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: Will provision be made to give immediate employment to the 500 miners who have been dismissed from the Edmonton coal mines?


Mr. MARTIN:: 1.	Five hundred coal mine workers have not been dismissed from the Edmonton coal mines. Dismissal notices effective March 31, have been served on approximately that number.
2.	Certain of these men will be returning to farm work for the summer season following the regular practice in this area, and employment will also be provided for the balance of the men concerned.


INDUSTRIAL ALCOHOL
Mr. BENCE:: 1.	How much industrial alcohol was produced in Canada in the year 1943?
2.	How much of such industrial alcohol was exported to the United States of America during the said year?

Questions
3.	What was the total amount paid therefor?
4.	How much of the said industrial alcohol produced in Canada was purchased by the federal government?
5.	What was the total amount paid therefor?
6.	From what product was such industrial alcohol manufactured?
7.	Was any industrial alcohol imported from the United States of America to Canada during the year 1943, and if so, in what quantity?
8.	What plan, if any, has the government for the increase of industrial alcohol from grain in this country?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: 1.	14,554,5S2 imperial gallons.
2.	6,451,955 imperial gallons.
3.	The price paid by the United States government for alcohol exported by Canada is on the basis of cost plus 5 per cent with a ceiling on the profit per gallon payable to the distiller.
4.	8,341,999 imperial gallons.
5.	The price paid by the Canadian government is on the basis of cost plus 5 per cent with a ceiling on the profit per gallon payable to the distiller.
6.	Wheat.
7.	No.
8.	Because the supply of industrial alcohol exceeds the demand there are no projects under consideration [DOT] at the present time by the department using grain as a source of alcohol. Improvement in operation and in set-up by various distillers will result in a substantial increase in production of industrial alcohol during 1944.


WARTIME HOUSING LIMITED-SEA ISLAND, BRITISH COLUMBIA
Mr. REID:: 1.	How many houses have been constructed by Wartime Housing Limited at Sea Island, British Columbia?
8. Location
Esquimalt, B.C	
North Vancouver, B.C.
North Vancouver, B.C. Prince Rupert, B.C. ...
Arvida, P.Q	
Beauharnois, P.Q	
Cartierville, P.Q	
Chicoutimi, P.Q	
2.	What has been the total cost of this project to date, giving, (a) cost of land; (b) cost of houses?
3.	How many of these houses have been rented up to February 29, 1944?
4.	What will be the total amount of rents collected when all the houses under this project are occupied?
0.	Has any arrangement been made between Wartime Housing Limited and the municipality of Richmond in regard to school accommodation for the children in this area?
6.	If so, what arrangement has been made for school accommodation, and under what arrangement with the municipality is the school accommodation being provided?
7.	How many schools have been built by Wartime Housing Limited under the various projects throughout Canada?
8.	Where are these located, giving size and cost of same?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: 1.	As of March 20, 1944r-192 out of 300 contracted for.
2.	(a) S19,203.60; (b) $727,354.66, inclusive of services, etc.
3.	111.
4.	Potential rent-$7,777 per month.
5 and 6. Negotiations are proceeding with the wartime housing administrator, The Richmond Transportation Company, the transit controller, and the city of Vancouver, in order that arrangements can be made to convey children from homes to their schools. Schooling has been arranged with the school board of the city of Vancouver and wartime housing limited has agreed to pay a cover rate of $6 per month per pupil up to 150 pupils, for the period covering commencement to June 30, 1944. The Richmond school board will, as requested, provide schooling accommodation for not more than 150 pupils until June 30, 1944, but not afterwards, at the rate mentioned.
7.	Thirty-one, including those built by wartime housing limited through contributions.
Size Contribution	Completed Estimated	
	cost	cost
4 rooms 10 rooms	$70,000 00	S 46,350 00
4-room ed		
addition		43,250 00
6 rooms		50,000 00
10 rooms		88,000 00
2 rooms $11,000 00 10 rooms		107,300 00
4 rooms		48,550 00
Questions

8.	Location De Salaberry, P.Q. Jonquiere, P.Q. ... Hamilton, Ont. ... Hamilton, Ont. ...
Hamilton, Ont. ... Malton, Ont	
Long Branch, Ont.
Niagara Falls, Ont. Peterboro, Ont. ... Pickering, Ont. ...
Pickering, Ont. ... St. Catherines, Ont.
Welland, Ont	
Welland, Ont	
Welland, Ont	
Windsor, Ont	
Windsor, Ont. ...-. Moncton, N.B. ... Dartmouth, N.S. ..
Halifax, N.S	
Halifax, N.S	
Halifax, N.S	
Pictou, N.S


INTERNMENTS-JOHN LORRIMER AND JOSEPH FARR
Mr. ROSE:: -
1.	Were John Lorrimer and Joseph Farr interned under the defence of Canada regulations for fascist activities?
2.	Have they been released?
3.	If so, what is the reason for their release?
Mr. ST. LAURENT:
1.	John Lorrimer and Joseph Farr were detained under the authority of regulation 21 of the defence of Canada regulations.
2.	Yes.
3.	Recommendation of an advisory committee.
Size Contribution	Completed	Estimated
	cost	cost
8 rooms	53,605 00	
4 rooms		43,550 00
6 rooms	61,828 00	
6 rooms		42,000 00
2-roomed addition		21,030 00
4 rooms	25,307 00	
2-	roomed addition 15,000 00 3-	roomed addition	27,842 00	
2 rooms	22,250 00	
10 rooms	50,734 00	
2-roomed addition		13,000 00
4 rooms	26,839 00	
2-roomed addition		21,030 00
2-roomed addition		21,030 00
4-roomed addition		41,350 00
4-roomed addition	22,998 00	
4-roomed addition	22,153 00	
4 rooms	38,350 00	
6 rooms	49,431 00	
5 rooms	44,479 00	
5 rooms	44,997 00	
10 rooms		97,680 00
6 rooms		46,750 00


Mr. HANSELL:: 1.	What was the total production of butter in Canada for the years 1940 to 1943 inclusive?
2.	How much butter was exported, (a) to Great Britain; (b) to other countries, during the years 1940 to 1943 inclusive?


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: 1.	Production of creamery butter in Canada for the years 1940, 1941, 1942 and 1943: Calendar
year	Cwt.
1940		 264,724
1941		 285,848
1942		 284,591
1943		 312,310
fMr. Chevrier.]

Questions
2.
Statement Showing Canadian Exports of Butter to Great Britain and to Other Countries, During the Calendar Years 1940 to 1943
Country	Cwt. Value
United Kingdom	 9 $	248
British South Africa	
Gambia	
Gold Coast	
Nigeria	 10	473
Sierra Leone	
Bermuda	
3,358	95,326British Guiana	
763	21,928British Honduras	
125	4,223Barbados	
342	10,901Jamaica	
74	1,992Trinidad and Tobago	
1,897	55,452Other British West Indies ...	2,090	63,177Newfoundland	
3,158	86,764Belgian Congo	
4	184China	
56	1,308Colombia	Costa Rica	
25	1,152Greenland	Egypt	French Africa	
14	555French Guiana	
26	1,238French West Indies	
1	36St. Pierre and Miquelon ....	741	18,247Guatemala	
6	360Hayti	
14	441Iceland	
100	2,513Japan	
3	141Liberia	Netherlands Guiana	
2	64Netherlands West Indies ....	53	1,491Peru	
205	5,774United States	
260	6,612Alaska	
4	137American Virgin Islands ....	4	198Venezuela	
32	1,364Total	
13,376 8382,299


R.C.A.F.-OTTAWA BUILDING
Alfred Henry Bence: What was the total cost of the air service building constructed for the Department of National Defence on Cartier Square, facing Lisgar street?


Mr. MACMILLAN:: 


$641,902.58. CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS
Mr. REID:: 1.	When a conscientious objector is directed to employment in agriculture, (a) how much is the employer required to pay for his services;
(b)	what does the conscientious objector receive; (c) what is done with the balance of his earnings?
1941	1942	1943Cwt.	Value	Cwt.	Value	Cwt.	Value100 $	3,983	S ....	70,892 $2,940,098	14	655	48	2,805	....90	4,969	263	12,7717	349	45	2,184109	5,521	184	9,476564	18,478	35	1,074	2,982	88,642	1,530	51,592	3,016	116,15640	1,414	949	25,192	816	24,009	382	15,53946	1,562	14	676	2,225	58,015916	31,070	914	38,800	5,887	232,6331,204	43,800	316	12,828	617	21,1576,903	242,729	10,641	384,110	9,510	367,7551	45	2	110	77	2,851	289	10,321	65	2,786....	24	1,384	718	22,050	885	29,929	998	41,1545	238	2	94	1	32	....2	98	274	9,974	200	7,920	28	996	38	1,487	39	1,590	2	"762	'79	2	88	
14,818 $493,525 16,009 $580,019 94,086 $3,819,800
2.	When a conscientious objector is directed to employment in industry, (a) how much is the employer required to pay for his services; (b) what does the conscientious objector receive; (c) what is done with the balance of his earnings?
3.	What is the total amount that has _ been paid by employers of conscientious objector labour to the chartered banks for the credit of the Canadian Red Cross society up to and including February 29, 1944?


Mr. MARTIN:: 1.	(a) The prevailing wage rate.
(b)	$25 monthly together with board and lodging.
(c)	The employer, on receipt of billing from district treasury officer, deposits the balance


PRAIRIE FARM ASSISTANCE-ONE PER CENT LEVY ON GRAIN SALES
Mr. FAIR:: What amount was collected in each province as a result of the one per cent levy on grain sales under the Prairie Farm Assistance Act?
Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West)1: One percentum levy-Total collections for four years from August 1, 1939, to July 31, 1943:
Manitoba	
$1,510,211	26Saskatchewan	
4,952,763	56Alberta	
2,728,078	85Total	
$9,191,053	67



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. NOSEWORTHY:: 1.	What is the number, and what cost of government-owned facilities that come within the following industrial classification (by classification only-not by individual facilities),
(a)	aircraft, aircraft parts and accessories;
(b)	ship construction and repairs; (c) combat transportation and other motorized vehicles;
(d)	guns; (e) ammunition, shells, bombs, etc.; (f) explosives and ammunition loading and assembling; (g) iron and steel products; (h) non-ferrous metals and products; (i) machine tools and metal-working equipment; (j) machinery and electrical equipment; (k) chemicals; (1) synthetic rubber; (m) gas and oil products; (n) other miscellaneous manufacturing; (o) nonmanufacturing, mining, pipe-lines, etc.?
2.	(a) What is the amount of government money advanced since the beginning of the wai; to privately-owned. firms engaged in production in each of the above-listed industrial classifications; (b) what is the number of such firms in each classification to which government money has been provided; (c) on what terms or conditions has such government money been provided in each classification?
3.	(a) In what government departments, commissions or other government agencies is the

ownership of these government-owned facilities vested; (b) what is the number of projects owned by each department, commisison or other government agency; (e) what is the cost of the projects owned by each of these government departments, commissions or agencies; (d) which of these facilities in each classification are operated by the government, and which are operated for the government by private companies?


FOREST RESEARCH-BRITISH COLUMBIA-LUMBER FOR DOMESTIC AND EXPORT USE
Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: 1.	Have any representations been made to the federal government regarding the establishment of a forest products research institute at the University of British Columbia? If so, what steps are being taken in this connection?
2.	What percentage of the production of lumber in Canada has been produced in British Columbia for, (a) domestic use; (b) export?


CONTROL BOARDS
Mr. LECLERC:: 1.	How many control commissions has the government of Canada instituted since the beginning of the war?
2.	What are the names of the chief officials of such commissions?
3.	What are their salaries?


EXPROPRIATION OF LANDS-SESSIONAL PAPER 259
Mr. HATFIELD:: 1.	Per sessional paper No. 259 of May 4, 1942, have the parcels of land expropriated and marked "unsettled" yet been settled?
2.	If so, what are the prices paid for each parcel?
3.	To date, what amount of money was paid to Clovis P. Richard, in searching the title, attending to the execution of the title deed, etc., for each parcel, showing detailed statement?


DUNDURN, SASK., MILITARY CAMP
Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: 1.	From whom was coal purchased for Dundurn military camp in the province of Saskatchewan during the year 1943, and to date?
2.	What were the grades supplied, and the price per ton?
3.	In what mine or mines is such coal mined, and what are the names of the several companies owning the said mine or mines?
4.	What is the price per ton at the mine-head of the several grades supplied?


CANADIAN FORCES-PENSIONS
Mr. QUELCH:: 1.	How many men and women serving in the armed services in Canada have, (a) died; (b) been discharged due to a disability?
2.	(a) In how many of these cases were the dependents of those who died refused a pension on the grounds that death was not incurred as a result of military duty; (b) how many pensions were granted on compassionate grounds?

Motions for Papers
3.	(a) How many of those discharged due to disability were refused a pension on the grounds disability was not due to military service; (b) how many were granted pensions on compassionate grounds?


LEGAL SERVICES-QUEBEC PROVINCE
Mr. LACOMBE:: 1.	What are the names of the lawyers and the legal firms in the cities of Quebec, Levis and Montmagny, (a) receiving fees from the dominion government or any of its commissions from the 1st January, 1937, to date; (b) to whom any fees are still due and payable?
2.	What amounts have been paid to each of them, in what year, and for what services?
3.	What amounts are still due to each, and for what services?
4.	What are the names of the lawyers and the legal firms at present employed by the dominion government or any of its commissions in the cities mentioned?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Mr. KNOWLES:: For a copy of all correspondence dated since January 1, 1943, between the federal government and the governments of the several provinces and/or the provincial pension authorities, relating to the filing of liens against the property of old age and blind pensioners; also for a copy of all correspondence between the same dated since January 1, 1943, relating to the interpretation of subsections (2) and (3) of section 9 of the Old Age Pension Act.



SOLDIER SETTLEMENT-DEDUCTIONS PROM DEPENDENTS' ALLOWANCES

Robert Fair: For a copy of an order in council passed during the early months of the war which made provision for deducting a certain amount each month from the dependents' allowance of wives or other dependents of soldier settlers who enlisted in the present war and applying such certain amount on the indebtedness of the soldier settlers concerned to- the soldier settlement board.


Mr. CRERAR:: Return tabled.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister) moved:: That when the house adjourns on Friday, March 31, it stand adjourned until Monday, April 17, 1944.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. L. RALSTON (Acting Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide:
1.	That sums not exceeding eight hundred million dollars ($800,000,000) be granted to His Majesty for the purpose of making war supplies available to any of the united nations, other than Canada, and of fulfilling any obligations arising out of the united nations relief and rehabilitation agreement;
2.	That the governor in council may determine the terms and conditions upon which such war supplies are made available to any of the united nations and may require in certain cases payment or repayment in kind of property or reciprocal action or provision of supplies or other direct or indirect benefit as may be deemed appropriate;
3.	That the Canadian mutual aid board be authorized to carry out the purposes of this resolution;
4.	That the governor in council be empowered to raise by way of loan under the provisions of the Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act, 1931, such sum or sums of money not exceeding in the whole the sum of eight hundred million dollars ($800,000,000) as may be required for the purpose of defraying the expenditures herein mentioned and for purchasing or otherwise acquiring or procuring war supplies in Canada through the agency of the Minister of Munitions and Supply, the principal and interest of any such loan to be a charge upon and payable out of the consolidated revenue fund.
He said:	His Excellency the Governor
General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the consideration of the house.
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. GORDON GRAYDON (Leader of the Opposition):: Before the orders of the day are called I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Revenue. I have not been able to give the minister notice of the question, but I believe he already has notice of it. It comes from the Retail Merchants' Association of Canada, by whom the suggestion is made, that, because of the scarcity of accountants and auditors, the time for filing the 1943 income tax returns be delayed for a matter of, I believe, two months. May I ask the minister what consideration is being given this request, and whether there are any reasons why it might not be granted?


Colin William George Gibson: I understand that the
representation has been received. It is receiving consideration at the present time but no decision has been reached.
Wheat Board Accounts



AUDIT OF WHEAT BOARD ACCOUNTS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. E. PERLEY (Qu'Appelle):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. Are the accounts of the Canadian wheat board audited by an officially appointed auditor? If so, who is the auditor and when will the last audit of the 1942-43 crop year be made available?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Ernest Edward Perley: I think the minister is prepared to answer that.


Thomas Vien: In my opinion the question is one that does not need an immediate answer.


Gordon Graydon: May I suggest to Your Honour, with great deference, that we are nearing the Easter recess and a number of matters such as the one raised by the member for Qu'Appelle have an urgency which otherwise they might not have. I should be glad therefore if Your Honour would, from now until the recess, consider the advisability of a little more latitude towards such questions.


Thomas Vien: I think the point taken by the leader of the opposition merits consideration, but such a question as the one now asked, inquiring about the name of an auditor, is not of sufficient urgency to call for an immediate answer.


Mr. LOCKHART:: May I suggest, Mr. Speaker, in addition to what the leader of the opposition has said, that there are a number of accountants in the armed forces who might easily be excused. I would ask' the minister to take it up with the proper member of the cabinet to see if something could not be done, because there is a dearth of chartered accountants to prepare corporation statements.

Hon. J. L. RALSTON (Acting Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee of supply.


Gordon Graydon: Before we go into interim supply there are one or two matters which I should like to bring up at this stage. If it is desirable to postpone my remarks, I have no objection to bringing the subject up later, but perhaps it might be just as well for me to proceed now.
In going into interim supply I realize that there is n,o necessity for any extended discussion of the resolution which the Acting Minister of Finance is about to introduce. Formal government requests of this kind have been granted time after time and we have no objec-

tion to that procedure being followed on this occasion. I take it the minister is asking for one-sixth of the regular civil estimates, including the supplementary estimates which were tabled the other day. The amount no doubt will be smaller than might appear from the total of the estimates themselves, since some of the estimates of the civil departments are statutory.
I hope the minister will be able to give to the house some plan or scheme being pursued as a policy by the government in connection with economies to be applied this year to civil estimates. We should like to know how they compare with last year's estimates. We want to know what is and what is not controllable. We want to know how the interest on the national debt, which, if my memory serves me correctly, was included last year in nonwar estimates, compares with the interest in the year before the war, and last year as well.
I would ask the minister at this stage to inform the house as to what plans are being laid down by the government in connection with a post-war taxation policy. That is one of the things we will need to know, so far as our committee is concerned. While economies are essential, and while we are anxious that not a cent will be wasted so far as non-war expenditures are concerned, at the same time I hope that consideration will be given to such matters as increase in old age pensions. We are hopeful that the age will be reduced, that the rate will be increased, and that due consideration will be given to the contributory feature mentioned in the speech from the throne.
The public accounts committee, which deals with matters relating to civil estimates, was set up at the beginning of the session. On February 25, the Prime Minister referred to that committee the public accounts and the auditor general's report. The committee has not yet met. I understand that one of the members of this party has already asked that the committee be convened. I suggest to the government that some other means ought to be made available under which, upon matters being submitted to them for consideration, this committee would automatically convene. I am hopeful that the committee on public accounts will begin its work, and that it will not be necessary on other occasions, as it was last year and has been again this year, to call attention to its failure to sit.
The public accounts committee has a big job on its hands. Many examinations are to be made. It is in that committee that the bulk of the work of examination of expenditures must be done. I refer, of course, to expenditures envisaged by the supply measure

Interim Supply Bill
now being introduced. I hope that the government will give some further latitude in respect of the type of material allowed to go before that committee. I remember that last year the public accounts committee was not allowed to deal with the wartime information board. That matter was referred to another committee and was not dealt with.
This party is anxious to facilitate the passage of interim supply. We reserve, however, our right to discuss any items in the various parts of supply as proceedings go on. I believe that is the undertaking which has always been given, and it is one I now ask the acting minister to give. May I caution the minister and the house that at a time like this members of the opposition and members generally must watch with ever-increasing care for waste and extravagance. For that reason we hope that when these estimates come down they will be in keeping with the general spirit of the times.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee of supply, Mr. McCann in the chair.



INTERIM SUPPLY BILL

Mr. RALSTON moved:: Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $46,331,283.90, being one-sixth of the amount of each of the several items to be voted, as set forth in the estimates for the fiscal year ending 31st March, 1945, laid before the House of Commons at the present session of parliament, be granted to His Majesty, on account, for the fiscal year ending 31st March, 1945.
He said: The proposal this afternoon, as the leader of the opposition (Mr. Graydon) has said, has come to be a part of the regular course of financial procedure owing to the fact that the sittings extend considerably into the new fiscal year, making it impracticable to wait until the whole estimates are passed. The bill which will be founded on the resolution is to provide one-sixth of the items to be voted in the main estimates for the fiscal year 1944-45, which were tabled by the Minister of Finance on February 11, 1944, and which cannot be passed through all stages before the beginning of the new fiscal year, on Saturday, April 1. I think the leader of the opposition was in error when he suggested that this bill is one-sixth of the main estimates, plus the supplementary estimates. It is in fact one-sixth of the main estimates. The further supplementary estimates which were tabled the other day are supplementary with respect to the year 1943-44, and do not apply to the new fiscal year.
This is the usual proportion which is granted at the beginning of the year, and the amount asked is necessary not only to cover salaries and other normal costs of government for the first two months of the year,
but also to enable initial advances to outside offices, in order that their operations may be undertaken without delay. There are certain seasonal operations on which the heaviest expenditures occur in the early months of the year, and these have also to be financed. They include agricultural services, surveys and explorations, and sessional expenses of parliament, for which one-twelfth would be inadequate to provide for urgent requirements.
I want immediately to give to the house the undertaking mentioned by the leader of the opposition, namely that it is understood that the passing of this bill will- not prejudice the rights and privileges of members to criticize and discuss any item in the estimates when they come up for discussion from time to time throughout the session. The usual undertaking is hereby given that such rights and privileges will be respected and will not be curtailed or restricted in any way as a result of passing this measure.
My hon. friend has asked for certain things and, in what he has said, has dealt with two or three matters. As the committee will see, the total estimates this year amount to
8702,369,000.	This represents an increase of $54,455,000 over the appropriations for the current year 1943-44, which were $647,914,000. The committee will be interested in knowing how that increase was brought about. It is accounted for by additions to various expenditures which relate solely to the war or which result directly or indirectly from war conditions. The items are:
Increase of interest on public debt
and other debt charges	 $75,344,000
Increase in cost of administration of income tax and excess profits
tax	 1,199,000
Increase in post office service expenditures	 2,511,000

The first item answers the question asked by the leader of the opposition with regard to the increase in debt charges. This total will be compared with the net increase of this year's estimates over last year's of $54,455,000.
My hon. friend will not expect me this afternoon to go into details of possible economies. I am sure that these matters will be gone into fully when the estimates are being considered. In general, the policy of restricting normal peace-time expenditures to the minimum required for the maintenance of essential services is being continued. It is, however, considered necessary and desirable at this time to make provision for gradually intensifying certain scientific investigations and research as well as preparing the ground
Interim Sup-ply Bill

for the orderly expansion of our commercial and other relations at home and abroad. Preliminary steps along these lines are reflected in relevant appropriations throughout the estimates.
My hon. friend has indicated that there should be economy and paring of expenditures, but at the same time he has indicated that there should not be too many economies, that there are some items in connection with which he thinks increases should be made.


Gordon Graydon: I just wanted common sense applied.


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend mentioned old age pensions. Old age pensions of course will be discussed at the appropriate time when whatever measure there is in that respect is brought down. I am not in a position this afternoon to make any announcement with respect to that. Neither am I in a position to accept my hon. friend's invitation to make an announcement with regard to the taxation policy. That is distinctly a budget announcement which will be made in due course.


Gordon Graydon: I was dealing only with the post-war period.


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend asked what were the uncontrollable expenditures in these estimates. He brought that up, of course, because he realizes, as we' all do, that there are certain expenditures with respect to which economies, or at least paring, cannot be practised. The larger uncontrollable expenditures are as follows:
Interest on public debt and other
debt charges	 $307,058,000
European war pensions (1914-18).	37,000,000
Government contribution to unemployment insurance fund	 15,000,000
Old age pensions	 31,526,000
Other pensions and superannuation.	5,623,000
Care of returned soldiers (1914-18)	15,584,000
Subsidies and special compensation
to provinces	 98,876,000
Maritime Freight Rates Act		4,400,000
Sundry other items	 3,508,000

In the fiscal year 1938-39 interest on public debt and other debt charges required an expenditure of $133,147,000. The present estimates provide for an increase of over $174,000,000 in this item alone as compared with pre-war expenditures. I think that gives my hon. friend the comparisons he wanted. The first was a comparison of the debt charges of a year ago and those of to-day, and in this item the increase is roughly $75,000,000. The other was a comparison between the debt charges of 1938-39 and those of to-day, where the increase is about $174,000,000.

After deducting the total of uncontrollable items, namely $518,575,000, from the total of these estimates, there remains an amount of $183,794,000 from which reductions are theoretically possible. However, even in this sum are many services, such as those rendered to our primary industries, which it would be unwise to reduce even at this time.
I do not think my hon. friend will expect me to go into the matter of the public accounts committee. He knows and the committee knows that each committee is master of its own procedure. I vmderstand that it is in order, as soon as the committee is set up, for any member of it to give the clerk of the committee a notice which I believe the clerk acts upon and calls the committee together to give consideration to whatever business may be before it. He spoke also of enlarging-I think that was the word he used, or something to that effect-the scope of the committee or the type of reference which shall be made to the committee. In this respect I am not in position to say anything further than that the committee has the widest powers in respect to the examination of public accounts. The policy will be adopted which has been adopted in the past of giving the committee full scope in that respect.


Gordon Graydon: I was not asking for any enlargement of the powers of the committee. I was asking only that the government accept the reference to the committee of such things as I referred to, such as the wartime information board, which was refused last year.


James Layton Ralston: I am not familiar with the circumstances regarding the wartime information board. All I can say is that the committee has the right, subject to the usual rules of the house and to the rights of other committees, to consider any matter which is properly the subject of consideration by the public accounts committee and that those subjects are very broad. I do not think I have anything to add to this statement, unless there are some questions hon. members would like answered at this stage.


Mr. DOUGLAS (Weybum):: It was very difficult to hear the minister and I did not catch the figure he gave when he was dealing with uncontrollable expenditure. He referred to the interest on the funded debt, and I believe he mentioned $317,000,000.


James Layton Ralston: The figure was $307,058,000.


James Lester Douglas: On March 20, as reported on page 1668 of Hansard, the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance gave the figure as of January 31, 1944,

Interim War Appropriation
as $268,312,935.81. Perhaps the figure the minister gave includes interest on the railway-debt.


James Layton Ralston: Interest on public debt and other debt charges.


Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: That would include interest on railway bonds?


Mr. ABBOTT:: The figure of $26S,312,935.81 which I gave the other night represented the annual interest payable on the net funded debt as of January 31, 1944. As my hon. friend knows, it is going up all the time.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: The minister is suggesting now that the figure of $307,000,000 is the estimate of what will be required for the coming fiscal year which will end March 31, 1945?


James Layton Ralston: Right.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in.



WAYS AND MEANS


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J.' L. RALSTON (Acting Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee of ways and means.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. McCann in the chair.
James Layton Ralston: Resolved, that towards making good the supply granted to His Majesty on account of certain expenses of the public service for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1945, the sum of $46,331,283.90 be granted out of the consolidated revenue fund of Canada.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Ralston thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 53, for granting to His Majesty certain sums of money for the public service for the financial year ending March 31, 1945.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second times and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. McCann in the chair.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. L. RALSTON (Acting Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:
Resolved, that it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide that a sum not exceeding $850,000,000 be granted to His Majesty towards defraying any expenses or making any advances or loans that may be incurred or granted by or
under the authority of the governor in council during the year ending the thirty-first day of March, 1945, for the purposes and subject to the terms, conditions and limitations set out in the resolution on the orders of the day, to provide that sums not exceeding $3,650,000,000 be granted to His Majesty.
Gordon Graydon: Mr. Speaker, perhaps at this stage, as at a similar stage of the previous resolution, I should say a word or two.
There should be no unnecessary delay in passing this interim war appropriation. A pretty full discussion has already taken place with respect to war departments and there will be an opportunity, of course, to discuss the other departments later; therefore I shall not discuss at any length the resolution now before us.
I would say to the minister, however, that for our protection we make the same reservation as to the position of the opposition so far as the rest of the war appropriation estimates are concerned, and I assume the minister is prepared to give the usual undertaking before this resolution passes.
The resolution deals entirely with matters pertaining to the war. Those in this country and in any others of the united nations engaged in this war who are apt to say in an unguarded moment that the war is nearing its end must now be ranked as real dangers themselves to the cause of the united nations. I am hopeful that this country yet will be aroused from its complacency with respect to the possibility of an early ending of hostilities. Our people have perhaps been depending too largely upon statements which have been made in other parts of the world because, while -we have passed the preparatory stages of the war, I think it may properly be said that we still have before us the most challenging and fiercest period of the war. This nation, this government, this parliament have to steel themselves not only against the great period of danger and peril which appears to lie immediately ahead, but against many blows, many losses, perhaps some reverses, before victory finally comes to our cause. I hope there will be an end of complacency among our people. Of necessity plans must be laid for the post-war period, and no one will object to a reasonable amount of legislation of that kind, but we must recognize that the first and the major issue which faces us is the winning of the war. To this end, subject to the right of criticism to ensure full prosecution of the war, this opposition is prepared, as it always has been, to give assistance in full measure to the government.
There are matters in this connection which the opposition cannot ignore if it is to discharge its duty. This leads me to bring to the

Interim War Appropriation

attention of the government, and more particularly to the minister who is piloting this resolution, some matters in connection with which remedial action is required in the interests of the preservation and maintenance of our democratic way of life. An answer which was given the other day to a question by the hon. member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker) shows that over 42,000 orders in council have been passed by this government since the war broke out. It stretches the imagination to accept the theory that every one of these orders was of the necessary and emergent type that the War Measures Act contemplates. There is a tendency on the part of governments, perhaps during peace, but especially in time of war, under the cloak of urgency, to pass legislation behind the closed doors of cabinet meetings without reference to the people as a whole. I hope the government will take into consideration the feeling which exists across this country in opposition to this movement which has gained so much impetus in the last few years, to legislate by orders in council rather than through parliament. Legislation by order in council is occasionally necessary; certainly there are times of national emergency when it is warranted. But there is an added responsibility upon the government to see to it that the people, when their representatives have not first been taken into consideration, are informed as to what that legislation is, and how the law is affected after the orders in council have been passed. That is not always done. Canadians will stand for this boardroom legislation or these semi-baked laws so long as it is necessary for the winning of the war, but if it oversteps that mark popular opinion will rebel against the usurpation of authority and power. One of our jobs as members of His Majesty's Loyal Opposition is to draw to the attention of the government such abuses when they arise.
I shall take only a moment at this stage to give an illustration of board-room bureaucracy in operation. Yesterday's Globe and Mail reports a court case in Toronto, having to do with a question of permits for materials which are restricted during war time. Judge James Parker, who was trying the case, said he viewed the offence as a technical breach of a federal order in council, which, he noted, had precipitated a condition of confusion and of misunderstanding. Apparently the secretary of a company had read the Canada Gazette to find out whether the law permitted the company to make a certain purchase, and, not having found anything to prohibit it, they went ahead and made the purchase. A case was brought and came up on one or two occa-

sions. It was the subject of an application to the Supreme Court of Ontario, and Chief Justice Robertson, eminent jurist that he is, is reported as follows: He branded this as a very vicious principle, a tendency he noted in government orders in council of reversing a principle of justice and compelling people to come to court to prove their innocence. In this case the trial judge observed that there is confusion in all these orders in council. That is an example of the type of thing against which Canadians rebel when the opportunity is given them to voice their sentiments. I ask the minister and the government, in connection with war preparations, where things of this kind are normally likely to occur, to see to it that legislation by order in council and by war order shall be reduced to a minimum in the interest of the preservation of our democratic way of life.	.
Having criticized the government in this regard, I want to say a word or two with respect to another matter. In a few short weeks we shall be in the middle of a great campaign, the campaign for the sixth victory loan. Regardless of their views, political or other, the people of Canada can be counted upon to make a full and prompt response. We talk very lightly about equality of service, equality of sacrifice and equality of contribution. I often wonder if those of us who sometimes make these statements fully realize just what the terms actually mean to many of the Canadian people. When the sixth victory loan campaign is opened the Canadian people may well consider this: If everyone in Canada were to give, not just loan at interest, but every material thing we possessed, would anyone in Canada rise and say that that equalled the sacrifice, the service, and the contribution of the men and women who have given their lives or who are prepared to offer their lives upon the altar of sacrifice that we may have freedom, righteousness and liberty in the days that lie ahead?
With this plea to the people of Canada on the eve of the sixth victory loan I say that we ought to consider the position in which we find ourselves, which is one of safety and security, and compare and contrast it with what the No. 1 branch of our citizens overseas are now going through; we should then make up our minds as to what we shall do in connection with the lending of material things to help to see them through.
In conclusion I wish to say this to the government, as I said in a previous speech when the ordinary [DOT]estimates were before the house. We are prepared to give the government all the cooperation it deserves and needs

Interim War Appropriation
to win this war; but we reserve our right to criticize. That is in the interests of the government and in the interests of Canada as a whole. But I do think it means that our responsibility as a party, the government's responsibility, yes, the responsibility of those to the left of us and of all groups in Canada, is a very heavy one, calling for the greatest sacrifice and the greatest effort on the part of all of us.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Some time ago the Minister of National Defence for Air (Mr. Power) placed an answer to some questions on Hansard. He said at that time that he was going to answer some other questions. He has not been back before the house since, and I thought I should take this opportunity of bringing the matter to the attention of the government and asking that the Minister of National Defence for Air make some statement before the house rises for the Easter recess.
The minister placed on Hansard at page 1401 an answer to a question by the hon. member for Rosthern (Mr. Tucker) dealing with the. closing of certain airports across Canada. Some twenty-nine airports in Canada are to be closed. Since that answer was given there has been considerable discussion in the press, and I am sure that most members have been in receipt of a great many communications asking for further particulars. I think there are one or two things that ought to be stated by the government. It should be pointed out to the public just why the closing of these airports has suddenly been made necessary. Last fall-


James Layton Ralston: Not suddenly.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Last fall the
minister was making frantic appeals for aircrew. There was talk about the need for tremendous expansion of aircrew; that we were at the bottom of the barrel. We find now that there is a surplus of aircrew and that we do not need to train any more because we now have enough not only to take care of additional requirements but to take care of replacements in the event of losses. I know that the government of Canada cannot be fully responsible for that. This government is only a part of a great scheme being carried on by the British commonwealth of nations and the united nations; consequently they have to adjust their plans to the plans of the other members of the British commonwealth. Nevertheless, in fairness to the country generally, the minister ought to make a statement as to what changes in circumstances have brought about the need for 100-1241
closing these twenty-nine airports. He ought to make a statement to the house and to the country as to what basis was used in determining which airports would be closed. Was it on the basis of efficiency, or of proximity to points of embarkation?
In looking over the list I notice that eight airports are to be closed in Saskatchewan, eight in Ontario, eight in Alberta, two in Quebec, two in Manitoba and one in New Brunswick. It can be seen that most of the airports to be closed are in western Canada. Because our industrial facilities are extremely limited, the airports are about the only part of the war activity that has found its way on to the prairies. The closing of airports in eastern Canada would hardly work any economic hardship on the communities involved, because most of these communities are suffering from a lack of housing accommodation. But the closing of airports on the prairies will cause an economic readjustment in the communities involved. I am not complaining about that, because some time or other they have to be closed, and we shall all welcome the day when the war is over and we shall be able to turn the efforts and energies of this country to other purposes. But I do think it would help if the minister made some statement as to the basis used in deciding what airports should be closed and what airports should be kept open. It does seem to those of us who come from the west that it has thrown an unnecessarily heavy burden upon western Canada as compared with other parts of the country.
The government ought to make a statement very soon as to what could be done with the airports. In the town in which I live it will mean that some fifty or a hundred civilians will be thrown out of work. Rumours are going around to the effect that these airports may be reopened for vocational training; that the government will use them for the training of men who are being returned to civilian life. I would favour that. If the government plans to do that, however, the plans ought to be so dovetailed that when an airport is closed as a training centre it will be opened as soon afterwards as possible for the purposes of vocational training. If that were done the fifty or a hundred or more men affected would not be scattered all over the country looking for work. What is apt to happen if these airports are closed is that trained mechanics, electricians, carpenters and firemen will be allowed to move elsewhere looking for work, and then six or eight months-later an attempt will be made to assemble a group of trained men to maintain the airports. If they are to be used for some other-
Interim, War Appropriation

purpose, a liaison between the various departments, a dovetailing of their plans, could be arranged so that when an airport is closed for one purpose it can be kept ready to be opened for some other useful purpose. If the government finds that is not feasible, I hope plans are under way to move to some other centre the civilians employed in the airports to the end that their skill can still be made use of by the country in its war effort.


Hon. R. B. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: I wish to make some inquiry of the Department of National Defence for Air with respect to , one of the airports that has been closed in my province. The minister is not in his seat, but his parliamentary assistant (Mr. Macmillan) is, and I therefore desire to direct my inquiry to him and to ask him if he can tell me why the Pennfield airport was closed and what is proposed to be done about it.
I am not quarrelling with the decision to close the airport.. I have no knowledge of the pros and cons of the question, but I would like to give something of the history of this airport. In the early stages of the war, when engineers from the Department of Transport were sent out to scout for probable airports in Canada, the location at Pennfield Ridge was indicated to them as being desirable for the establishment of an airport. I myself took some interest in the matter, because I was familiar with the terrain of the locality. When I found that there had been an adverse report from the engineer of the Department of Transport-I believe his name was McLean, if I remember rightly-I asked him and the deputy minister to come and see me in regard to the matter. They explained to me the conditions of the situation and the reasons which actuated them in making an adverse report upon this location. There were reasons of climatic conditions. Contiguity to the fogs of the bay of Fundy was alleged as a substantial reason why this airport should not be opened. After a good deal of doubt, after consulting with my friend, the member for Charlotte (Mr. Hill), who was more directly interested than I was from the standpoint of representation, I reluctantly came to the conclusion that possibly the report of the engineers was correct.
Imagine however my surprise when a few weeks later the announcement was made that an airport was to be established at Pennfield Ridge, that contracts were let to a contractor in New Brunswick on unit prices, without any competition, at a cost of millions. The history of that airport has been varied. At one time a navigation school was established there for men in the R.A.F.; then one day, coming from New Brunswick, I noticed on a siding alongside the train on which I was travelling a

special train loaded with airmen. I made inquiries and ascertained that the whole navigation school from Pennfield was being transferred to a point in the prairie provinces. That was no doubt done for good and sufficient reasons. Subsequently another school was set up there, largely composed, I believe, of personnel of the R.A.F. I am not sure whether there were any of the R.C.A.F. men there, or what the position was. That school has now been closed down but-and this is the point of the remarks I desire to make- just previous to the closing down of the school, I am informed, a contract was let to a contractor without any tenders being called for, on unit prices, which would double the surface areas of the runway, at a cost of half a million dollars. The school is closed and no announcement has been made as to the purpose of this installation, which now must have cost more than 83,000,000. That is a guess on my part. I have no figures available, but judging from, what has been done and what I know of the area and the extent of the installation, there cannot have been much less than $3,000,000 spent on that airport. And the work is going on. This half million expenditure has not been suspended. I think some explanation is due to the public and the country.


James Layton Ralston: Does my hon. friend
know-


Thomas Vien: In the matter before the
house, which is a motion that I leave the chair for the house to go into committee of the whole, the leader of the opposition (Mr. Graydon) took the opportunity to say that he had a few remarks to make, but they extended further than I thought they would have been. He did indicate, however, at the beginning of his address that he would reserve the right to criticism of such expenditures as may be contained in the amount of $3,650,000,000 that is asked for under the war appropriation.
When the house is going into committee of the whole on such a matter as this, which is by leave of the house, and which deals only with the vote on account asked for by the government, it does so without debate. The feeling of the house, however, is seemingly that this matter is debatable and that all questions may be brought within the range of the discussion. I point out that the right of discussing all these matters which hon. members are now seeking to deal with can be exercised in committee of the whole where the war appropriations are now being considered and also when the bill is before the house.


Richard Burpee Hanson: There will be a bill after this.

Interim War Appropriation


Thomas Vien: There will be a bill after this, yes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I was
about to conclude what I had to say, but I must confess that I do not quite understand the ruling. If Your Honour says that I am out of order, I abide by the decision; but shall I have the opportunity of concluding *what I have to say when the bill which is to be founded on this resolution is before the house?


Thomas Vien: This is a resolution antecedent to a bill which provides for interim supply. It is part of the appropriation that is being asked for under the war appropriation measure of $3,600,000,000. All the matters which hon. members are now seeking to discuss can be taken up when the war appropriation bill is under consideration.


Richard Burpee Hanson: May I ask this question for information. Does it follow that on this interim bill I cannot discuss these matters now? I do not understand Your Honour to say that. To me it is a strange proceeding if on a bill for interim supply I cannot discuss this matter to-day because it is held that it can be discussed on a later occasion.


Thomas Vien: May I point out that the leader of the opposition, when he was making his remarks, while giving assent to the passing of this bill as an interim supply measure, did reserve the right to criticism of all expenditures that may come under the war appropriation bill.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is
understood.


Thomas Vien: It was by leave of the
house that this matter is being brought before the house now, but in spite of the reservation made a discussion ensued. I assumed that the reservation made in regard to the resolution would also apply to the bill when it comes in.


Richard Burpee Hanson: But Your Honour hag not answered my inquiry, and I rise again to ask whether it is out 'of order for me now to discuss any matter of war expenditure at this stage of the proceedings, or at any stage of the proceedings, for that matter. If it is, it is g, limitation of debate that I have never heard of in this house, and I do protest.


James Layton Ralston: I thought there was general agreement.


Richard Burpee Hanson: We were
going to give you supply, but surely we have a right to talk on it.


James Layton Ralston: Not on X Y Z airport.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I will not be stifled by that.


Thomas Vien: Interim supply is usually granted by leave of the house and no debate takes place. If the hon. member says that he wishes to speak on matters generally, and proposes to do so, I cannot prevent him from proceeding. But the understanding I gathered from the house and from the leader of the opposition was that the reservation made applied to all matters which could be discussed under the war appropriation bill, and therefore I understood that there would be no debate. But if the hon. member feels that he cannot allow this to pass without discussion, then he has the right, to do so.


Gordon Graydon: On the point of order may I say, so that there may be no misunderstanding, that last year in connection with interim supply for the war appropriation the debate was of considerable length. I am hoping that that will not be so this time, and I do not believe it will be. The hon. member for York-Sunbury (Mr. Hanson) was discussing only one isolated case. But there does not seem to be any reason why, in respect of an interim supply bill such as this, debate could not take place. In general, however, I think most hon. members would like to have the debate kept within limits, and that is what we are trying to do.
I am quite sure, however, that Mr. Speaker would not think of limiting the hon. member, because I am equally certain that the rules of the house would not so provide.


Thomas Vien: I think I have indicated to the hon. member for York-Sunbury that
if the reservation made by the leader of the opposition is not to be maintained in the debate on this resolution, then the hon. member for York-Sunbury, if he wishes, is entitled to discuss the matter, both on the resolution and on the bill.


Gordon Graydon: With respect to the
reservation made, may I say that it is not restrictive. Rather it is a reservation, so that discussion may take place afterwards. I am quite sure there has never been any suggestion either in the present instance or in respect of previous debates to the effect that a reservation might be regarded as restricting anyone from discussing what he wished to discuss.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I desire
to make only one observation respecting the point of order. The reservation asked for by the leader of the opposition and the answer given by the minister involved only a preservation of the rights of members to discuss every item, notwithstanding the present
Interim War Appropriation

granting of supply. It has no connection whatsoever with the limitation of debate, on matters concerning the war, to the resolution now before us. I think I am right about that. After the leader of the opposition had spoken I had not intended to say anything this afternoon. But the hon. member for Weyburn (Mr. Douglas) discussed a question, and I thought that what was sauce for the goose was sauce for the gander. If he had a complaint to make and was permitted to make it, then I thought this was an opportune time for me to make my complaint, or at least to make an inquiry of the administration respecting a certain matter.
That is all I was proposing to do, and I was about to conclude what I had to say by asking the assistant to the Minister of National Defence for Air (Mr. Power) to make a statement, possibly by to-morrow, at least before the house adjourns for the Easter recess, as to why the Pennfield airport was closed and, particularly, why a huge expenditure of half a million dollars is being made there for the purpose of doubling the runway surface of an airport which is now being closed. I have had letters about this matter. The public are inquiring about it. They cannot understand why this sum of money ia being spent, if the airport is not to be used.
That was why I rose to speak and, having said that, I shall resume my seat. I do not ask for a reply to-day.


Thomas Vien: May I point out to the hon. member for York-Sunbury my understanding, namely that the matter of which the hon. member has been speaking anticipates a discussion which, I recall, the Minister of National Defence for Air said would take place. We shall be discussing the same matter when the war appropriation measure is before the committee.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The rules of the house are strange; I do not pretend to understand their application.


Mr. MacINNIS:: I understand that there is no point of order before the house. This is part of the annual war supply, and we understand that everything contained in a war appropiration resolution is subject to discussion at this time.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is
what I thought.


Angus MacInnis: That does not mean that I have any wish to debate the subject at this time. If we had come to the conclusion that we were going to let these appropriations pass, we should let them pass. But when the leader of the opposition rises in the house and makes a speech, other hon. members may feel that

they, too, should speak, because they also wish to go on record in respect of various matters. So that once the debate is started- and I admit it was quite in order-there is no way of stopping it. Therefore it would be up to the leaders of the opposition in the house to discipline themselves in matters of debate. In that way we shall get somewhere.


Gordon Graydon: I do not like that word "discipline".
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. McCann in the chair.


James Layton Ralston: Mr. Chairman, with regard to the reservation to which reference was made by the leader of the opposition, I should like to give the committee an undertaking similar to that given in connection with interim supply respecting civil estimates. The undertaking is that the passing of the interim supply bill to be founded on this resolution will not prejudice the rights and privileges of members to criticize and discuss fully the provisions of the main resolution. The undertaking is hereby given that such rights and privileges will be respected and will not be curtailed or restricted in any way as a result of passing this measure.
The leader of the opposition referred to one other matter, namely legislation by order in council. I shall not deal with that because, while under the strict rules of the house, it may be quite in order to discuss something germane to the war, at the same time I did think that under the convention which I thought was arrived at, such matters would be discussed on some other occasion.
However, since my hon. friend has mentioned the matter of legislation by order in council- board-room legislation, as he described it-I would say this, that notwithstanding what my hon. friend may think, every effort is made to restrict to the minimum legislation by order in council. May I add only a few words to what he said. His statement was to the effect that we were perfectly justified in passing legislation or, as he said, in legislating by order in council .under a state of urgency or emergency. I believe those are the words he used. But there are two other conditions to be kept in mind, namely, states of necessity and security. That of security applies particularly to the department with which I am connected, and it is a factor which makes it necessary at times to proceed by way of order in council. And at times some of those orders in council are not published.


Gordon Graydon: It was not the use of them, rather it was the abuse of them with which I was concerned.

Interim War Appropriation


James Layton Ralston: I say to my hon. friend and the committee generally that not in one single instance does the government confess to any abuse of powers given under the War Measures Act for the purposes of proceeding according to the necessities of war. We proceed in that' way because we believe, to use my hon. friend's expression, that there are urgencies, emergencies or necessities which require expedition, and also require facilitating and getting on with the job. At times there is the necessity to get things done, when it would be impossible or would take too long to move otherwise. Those are the considerations of which account must be taken by the government in exercising its power.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Does the minister consider that the order in council of March 18, 1943 amending the Companies Act, qua the incorporation of an aircraft company, comes within the ambit of the limitations he has laid down? That was entirely a civil matter; it was outside of war altogether; it was an abuse of the executive functions of government.


James Layton Ralston: In the first place, the
urgency was apparent because applications were being made for the incorporation of companies. The merits of the case were based upon the necessity of bringing that in as a war measure because of the situation which existed in regard to aviation in this country.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Parliament was in session.


James Layton Ralston: Parliament was in session, but perhaps an example of what would have happened is what is happening this afternoon in dealing with an interim measure with regard to the war appropriation.


Gordon Graydon: Considering the amount involved, we have not been very long this afternoon.


James Layton Ralston: If there had been a full-dress debate in connection with the matter to which my hon. friend referred it might have been some weeks before the necessary legislation was put through to restrict the rights of companies to take out charters.
I come now to the third matter mentioned by the leader of the opposition, which had to do with the text that the war is not yet won. I agree with him, and I have endeavoured to preach as serious sermons as I possibly could along those same lines. When the Minister of Finance introduced this measure in the first place he referred to the same subject, as reported on page 391 of Hansard, as follows:
I need not assure the house that this probable reduction in direct war expenditures, like the corresponding decrease forecast by President Roosevelt in connection with United States war expenditures, does not represent any slackening in the war effort, but rather merely the result of the stage of the war and of our preparation for war which has now been reached. The speech from the throne clearly indicated that while the war situation has improved from the point of view of the united nations during the past year, nevertheless the duty of the government is to see that Canada's war effort is firmly maintained until the enemy is defeated in Europe and in Asia. The winning of the war clearly remains the first of all our objectives.
I agree thoroughly with my hon. friend. Too many people are thinking that the war is won, but all they need to do is to ask the men who are in front of Cassino, the men who are on the Anzio beachhead, the men who are on the right flank near Ortona, the men who are in the air flying over Germany and Europe, many of them not coming back, the men who are risking their lives ploughing the seas to protect our men and munitions in transit. All they need to do is to look back at the same period in the last war. They will realize that the situation is not the same. The German is far from beaten; he does not consider he is beaten and he fights on. The Jap is quite willing to die as he always has been in order to maintain his place in the sun. Progress in Italy has been quite gratifying, but we are still 800 or 900 miles from Germany, and there is a long hard road ahead of us in the south of Europe. On the north we find that at the same period in the last war we were in control of probably three-quarters of France, but to-day we have not even a toe-hold on the north west coast of Europe. The whole of Europe still has to be regained.
We pay tribute to our gallant allies the Russians. The fighting of the Russians will probably have to be matched this year. In the far east China is overrun. Hong Kong must be avenged, and Singapore, the Malaya peninsula, the Philippines and those islands in the southwest Pacific must be retaken. That is what we must do before we finally bring our enemies to unconditional surrender. That is quite a task. I refer those who think the war is nearly won to the statement made a day or two ago by the director of aircraft production, that by this time next year we may quite possibly have to be building planes just as hard as we are to-day. Let us hope that that will not be so.
I agree wholeheartedly with the hon. member for Weyburn when he says that we will welcome the day when the war is over and we can turn our energies toward the constructive work of peace. I am glad to hear that
Interim. War Appropriation

declaration made. We hear complaints when this or that activity is not being kept up. One would almost think that some people wanted the war to continue in order that certain war activities might be kept going. What we want is to end the war just as soon as possible. The sooner we can get it over, the sooner we can relax our efforts. However, the more we intensify our efforts at this time, the shorter will be the war and the quicker and surer the victory that is to come.
The hon. member for York-Sunbury referred to a particular airport. Without accusing him of unfairness, I think he need not have brought that up this afternoon. The Minister of National Defence for Air is not in the house at present. I am sure my hon. friend knew of the circumstances to which he has referred when the estimates of the Minister of National Defence for Air were before the committee. That was the time to have brought them up. I can say to my hon. friend that a statement will be made in due course with regard to that matter. I say to the hon. member for Weyburn that a statement will be made in due course with regard to the matter of closing airports.
I do not know whether any statement can be made as to the method adopted to establish what particular airport will be closed and what particular airport will be kept open, but if any statement can be made I am sure it will be made when the time comes. The hon. member inquired as to what would be done with the aii-ports when they are closed. I am sure that that matter was discussed by my colleague, the Minister of National Defence for Air, when his appropriations were being considered and I assume that there will be an opportunity for further discussion before the session is over.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I was particularly anxious to have a statement made, not necessarily to-day but as soon as possible, about the disposition that will be made of the civilian personnel who might become unemployed.


James Layton Ralston: There may be an opportunity for them to join the army.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: The minister surely does not think the Department of National Defence for Air would employ men who should be in the army. I think the minister is being facetious. I want to tell the minister that every man employed at the Weyburn airport is a veteran of the last war.


James Layton Ralston: That is splendid.
fMr. Ralston.]


Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: I do not quite understand the attitude taken this afternoon by the minister. It seems that every time a matter is brought before the house the opposition is criticized for endeavouring to have it elucidated.


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend seems to have a vivid imagination. I have not heard anyone criticized this afternoon.


Richard Burpee Hanson: You accused me of unfairness.


James Layton Ralston: I did not accuse you of unfairness; I left it to you.


John George Diefenbaker: We take second place to no one in our desire for the mobilization of this nation for victory, but we seem to be always met with criticism, either direct or veiled, when we bring up matters. The attitude taken is that we should be shoved aside, that when we offer criticism, whether it is constructive or not, we do so for some ulterior purpose. I thought I would see what Sir Wilfrid Laurier said during the last war about the attitude of the opposition. I think his words summarize and epitomize the attitude that should characterize us all in endeavouring to assist the government when it needs assistance. This is what Sir Wilfrid Laurier said on March 10, 1915, as reported on page 834 of Hansard:
... it was never intended by me nor by any of those who sit around me that, when we wei;e summoned to parliament and called upon to pass judgment, to sanction or not to sanction the measures brought down by the government, we were to abdicate our judgment and to sit here as recording machines, simply to register the decisions of the government.
I re-echo those words. Sir Wilfrid Laurier has epitomized the attitude of the opposition in tvar time. He continued:
We are still of the opinion that the war is the supreme issue-
That attitude is the attitude to-day of those in opposition.
-but if we believe that in the method of carrying on the war, in the policy proposed by the government, there be errors of judgment or otherwise, then it is our imperative, duty to cry halt, to show the mistakes, to point out the true course and to use every endeavour to prevent mistakes from being carried into effect.
That is the attitude of this opposition. There has been altogether too much of an attitude on the part of the government of castigating members of the opposition when we, with the same desire as the government to assist in the winning of the war, bring forward what we believe to be constructive criticism.

Interim War Appropriation


James Layton Ralston: After this rather heated statement by my hon. friend, may we get back to just what we are doing here this afternoon. Nobody has criticized anybody for raising any matter which 'he felt it was necessary to raise. I have suggested to the hon. member for York-Sunbury that the question raised this afternoon was one that he might have raised when the Minister of National Defence for Air was present, and he had full opportunity of doing that. I am sure that he will not say that he did not have the facts before him that he has now.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Yes, I will say that. I did not know that the new contract had been let until after the Minister of National Defence for Air had got his estimates through.


James Layton Ralston: That is only one of a chain of circumstances which my hon. friend brought forward this afternoon, and) I do not think it adds very much to it. All that I have said to my hon. friend is that at a time like this he might have refrained from dealing with a specific problem. However, he was given that right, and that is all there was to it. The hon. member for Lake Centre has quoted Sir Wilfrid Laurier as asserting the right of an opposition to criticize. Is there anybody anywhere in the house who has not freely and fully accorded them that right? All that my hon. friend1 was doing this afternoon was to set up a straw man in order to knock him down again.


Richard Burpee Hanson: You are adept at that yourself.


James Layton Ralston: What is happening here is this. We have had before us for some time the main war appropriation resolution. Every member has had and will have the opportunity of discussing with the minister interested any item in his estimates. After that is done the resolution is passed. Then we go into committee on the bill, and once more hon. members of the house have the fullest opportunity, if they so desire, to discuss every item of war expenditure in every department that is affected. Has that right been taken away by what we are doing this afternoon? Not in the slightest. But because we need a portion of the money to make urgently needed immediate payments the hon. member for Lake Centre would suggest that some right is taken away from him. He has all the rights I have mentioned. He has his opportunity to discuss every one of the items of, the war appropriation on the main resolution itself and again when the war appropriation bill is before the house.
But because he cannot have two more opportunities to discuss these items he comf plains that we are taking away the rights of an opposition which were asserted by Sir Wilfrid Laurier. My hon. friend has a vivid imagination. I repeat that all he is doing is to set up a straw man in order to knock him down again. The opposition still has its full right to criticize any item of the war appropriation, but I thought there was a general understanding that in order that we might get along with the business of the country and the prosecution of the war $850,000,000 out of a total war appropriation of $3,650,000,000 should be granted now so that we could make immediate payments, reserving full rights to the whole house to discuss everything. I say to my hon. friend that I do not think Sir Wilfrid Laurier whose statements he has quoted would ask for anything more than that.


Mr. CASTLEDEN:: In spite of what the minister has just said, I still think we are entitled to a statement from the Minister of National Defence for Air or his parliamentary assistant, and it seems to me that when this interim appropriation is being granted the minister for air should at least be here.
In 1943 airports were being erected in different parts of Canada. The province of Manitoba had one at Gimli. The cost of these airports runs into millions of dollars. The minister for air stated in the house on February 29 that some of the airports would be closed, but he did not indicate how many. On March 13, it was announced that twenty-eight airports were to be closed. If there has been a sudden reversal of policy in the matter of airports ye should be told about it. There was a conference held at Quebec last August and September which cost this country $366,000. What was the policy then laid down with regard to airports? At that time the minister was still asking for an expansion of the air training programme and he continued to do so until November of that year. This year there was a sudden reversal of policy and it was announced in February that twenty-eight airports were to be closed this year. The people of Canada are asking the reason for this sudden change of policy, and I think they are entitled to an answer. The Canadian people have questioned very little the expending of money to be used in the winning of this war, but they certainly are critical of what appears to them to be unnecessary waste, and I think a statement is due from the minister to the committee.


Mr. SENN:: I wish to bring a matter of some little urgency to the attention of the

Interim War Appropriation

minister. It will take only a minute or two. I promise that I am not going to be critical; rather I want to be helpful. I would not have brought the matter up to-day except that in view of the Easter recess and our adjourning this week I presume there will not be another opportunity for me to do so.
In the war appropriation estimates of the Minister of Agriculture there is an item, "Subsidies to producers of food products," for a considerable sum. So far the subsidies have been paid over the last two or three years but I am sorry to say that I now have complaints that these subsidies are very much in arrears, somewhat to the embarrassment of the processors of milk, butter and other food products. I would ask the minister to bring this matter to the attention of the Minister of Agriculture with a view to seeing that the subsidies are brought up to date. I am not blaming the officials of the department in any way because I know they are capable, and it is undoubtedly true that complicated calculations have to be made and a good deal of time is required for scrutiny of the accounts. Without further delay, and not to hold up the war appropriation I would ask the minister to see if something cannot be done to ensure that the subsidies are brought up to date.


James Layton Ralston: I shall be glad to take the matter up at once with my colleague the Minister of Agriculture.


Mr. McNIYEN:: May I bring to the attention of the Minister of National Defence a matter of serious concern to Saskatchewan and one over which he has supervision. I assume that some of the money which is now being appropriated will be used to further the plan already well under way. There is an extensive military establishment at the town of Maple Creek, Saskatchewan, where a basic training centre has been established. That is now virtually closed. There are only enough men left in that centre to look after it. Then we have that great thriving centre, in the northern part of the province, the city of Prince Albert, where there are splendid barracks and other accommodation, used last winter for experimental purposes. The only ones left there now are a few men to guard the place. Complaints are now coming in to me that the military camp at Dundum is fast dwindling in importance and that units will shortly be moved from that centre. To cap. the climax of a woeful tale, the great metropolitan centre, the queen city of the west, Regina, is fast dwindling in military importance.


Gordon Graydon: I hope only in military importance.


Donald Alexander McNiven: Certainly. I bring
these matters to the minister's attention,
matters that I have frequently brought to his notice during the last three or four years, only to emphasize that in the matter of military development the people of our province have not been given an opportunity to pull their full weight and to give expression to that assistance that they would like to give in military affairs. There seems to be some reason why our province was the last to be developed in that regard and the first to suffer from limitations or restrictions. There are now only some 4,800 troops all told in Saskatchewan, whereas in the neighbouring province of Manitoba there are some 14,000, and in the neighbouring province of Alberta there are over 11,000; and I am informed that there are approximately 225,000 troops in the whole of Canada. I hear rumours that military district No. 12, which has been in existence since 1917 or 1918, is, because of the facts which I have related, about to disappear. In recent weeks, when told of the continued existence of M.D. No. 12, military officers raised their eyebrows in an expression of astonishment that the district was still in existence.
I am making these remarks now because I assume that some of the money which is being appropriated will be applied to continue the use of military structures in Saskatchewan. I hope that what I have anticipated is not the fact, and that continued and greater use will be made of those splendid buildings at Maple Creek and the equally fine buildings at Prince Albert.


Gordon Graydon: Who is the member for Prince Albert?


Donald Alexander McNiven: One of the finest in this country.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


Gordon Graydon: You will have to get more applause than that.


Donald Alexander McNiven: You will find it all through this country, everywhere.	.


Gordon Graydon: I did not.


Donald Alexander McNiven: You did not look in the right place.


Gordon Graydon: I looked in Regina.


Donald Alexander McNiven: I hope also that continued and greater use will be made of Dundurn military camp, which military experts have described to me as one of the finest sites for a military camp anywhere in Canada.

Government Loan


Stanley Howard Knowles: Included in. the war appropriation measure, one-sixth of which vote we are passing now, is an item to cover the additional five dollars which was granted last year to old age and blind pensioners. It was done by virtue of order in council P.C. 6367, dated August 10, 1943.
There are a number of matters related to this subject in which I am interested, but I wish to ask the government to-day only one question. My question is this: Is consideration being given by the government to raising the ceiling on the total income allowed to old age pensioners so that all of them may get the benefit of the five dollar increase which was announced in the house last July 24 and provided for by order in council on August 10? I realize, Mr. Chairman, that we shall have an opportunity of discussing this matter again when we get to this item under the war appropriation resolution; but although we can discuss the matter then, if the government's mind is already made up when we come to that, it will be difficult to have any change made. My hope is, by asking the question now as it has been asked on a number of occasions, that if consideration is not being given at the present time it will be given in the meantime. It seems to me most unfair that when this five dollar increase' was provided for, no change was made in the ceiling; the ceiling was left at $365, and that meant that many old age pensioners do not get the full amount of the five dollar increase, and many received no increase at all. I know that the government of at least one province, Manitoba, has made the very reasonable appeal to the government that this ceiling be raised from $365 to $425 a year. These figures are still so low that one dislikes quoting them; but I say at least that much ought to be done. I wonder whether the government has given consideration to this matter.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Ralston thereupon moved for leave to introduce bill No. 54, for granting to His Majesty aid for national defence and security.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second times and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. McCann in the chair.
Section 1 agreed to.
On section 2-$850,000,000 granted for
1944-45.
Stanley Howard Knowles: Before the item is carried, would the minister give an answer to the question. I asked a moment ago?


James Layton Ralston: All I can say is that consideration is being given to all aspects of the old age measure, as was indicated in the 100-125J
speech from the throne. I am not in a position to designate any particular feature of it which is having special consideration.


Stanley Howard Knowles: If I might point this out, the reference in the speech from the throne was to another plan, of contributory old age pensions, which might be brought in at some future date, when there is agreement among the provinces and the federal government. My question is with respect to the administration of the act which is now in force, and particularly with respect to the sum of five dollars, provided for by order in council, covered by the bill which we are now passing.


James Layton Ralston: I cannot add anything to what I have said to my hon. friend.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. D. C. ABBOTT (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance) moved the . second reading of Bill No. 38, to authorize the raising, by way of loan, of certain sums of money for the public service.
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. McCann in the chair.
Section 1 agreed to.
On section 2-Loan authorized.
Mr. CHURCH:: I should like to ask a question of the parliamentary assistant to the minister with regard to this section. What is the method of financing this particular transaction of $1,000,000,000? The section authorizes the loan. In what form is the loan to be? It is under the Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act and, as I understand it, some of it is permanent finance authorized in the resolution and consists of the sale of bonds and other securities. Some of it is temporary and refunding finance. Is that not true? Is not some of it to be in the form of treasury notes? We are talking about a billion dollars. The function of an opposition is to find out something about it. The resolution and all of that is all right, but when the bill is before parliament, which binds future generations yet unborn to pay back the loan, it is the duty of the opposition to find out something about the method and manner of financing.
In addition to that, I should like to know what kind of audit we have. As I understand it under the Consolidated Revenue and Audit
Government Loan

Act the auditor general cannot do a thing about this billion dollars. The parliamentary assistant to the minister, if he had been in the house in the last two years when the minister was asked these questions, would have found out that since the war started there has been substituted for the auditor general who audits the revenues and expenditures of the country, and has done so since confederation, a comptroller of the treasury. As long as the comptroller of the treasury finds that any item in this particular billion dollar loan is within the four corners of the resolution on war appropriation expenditure which has been adopted, he has to pass it. As was said by the hon. member for Temiscouata in the last two sessions-and I agreed with him-the comptroller of the treasury is more or less an official of the Minister of Finance. He is appointed by the minister and is under his control. Under the Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act he has not the power which the auditor general used to have in days of peace.
What is the practice with regard to financing? Once upon a time we used to borrow money through the medium of treasury notes. In the last war we got money at the lowest of costs, less than one per cent on treasury notes, from Chase's bank and the National City bank of New York. We borrowed large sums of money at a time when the provinces and the municipalities were in the market and they could not borrow in any shape or form without the consent of the Minister of Finance of Canada. That may or may not have been a good policy. In some respects it was no doubt a good policy; but at the same time I wish to point out what was said at that time. We borrowed money on treasury notes and refunded at a loss. I think it was the present Minister of Finance who preceded the present minister who said that we borrowed money at the rate of less than one per cent. It was in the form of treasury notes and other negotiable instruments. We are in the fifth year of the war and we have a new victory loan coming on. I say that the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance should, before Easter, make a further statement with regard to the resolution which preceded this bill and the coming victory loan. No doubt a part of it will be taken care of by the billion dollars and other matters in the coming fiscal year.
All these victory loans have cost us too much. The method of financing has cost us too much. The public is being charged too much and future generations are being charged too much. The interest rate is too high, and there are a great many unnecessary expenditures incurred in connection with these loans. They will have to be met out of section 2 of fMr. Church.]
this bill which authorizes short term loans and long term loans. Before the Easter recess the finance department should issue a statement in connection with the loan and the matters to which I have referred to-day, because in my opinion this large expenditure of a billion dollars is costing Canada too much. We should have a lower rate of interest, one or one and one-half per cent. No doubt some of the money will come from the Bank of Canada and the chartered and affiliated banks. Some of it may be a straight loan. No doubt different methods will be adopted. In the fifth year of the war I think we can get money at a far less rate of interest than we are paying up to date. Future generations will have to pay for this war. In my opinion a great part of the expenditures which are the basis of this loan is not for war at all. If we go over the various bills which are passed here and if we examine the appropriation bill of one billion 1 dollars we shall find a great many items in them that have nothing to do with war. Wars are won by soldiers, sailors and airmen at the scene of combat, not at home. You do not win wars by a whole lot of expenditure at home on matters that will not do very much to win wars.
What is Mr. Morgenthau, the treasurer of the United States, doing? Recently he took a trip to Italy. While there, he met soldiers and when he came back he told a committee of congress that the soldiers were objecting to suffering in flesh and blood in this war and then being asked to pay for the war when they came home. I think the time has come to put the brakes on the high rate of interest that is being charged and other extravagant costs of loans.
The large standing national committees across Canada are spending money like water in many unnecessary ways.
The parliamentary assistant may smile at this kind of thing, but I can point out to him instances where money has been wasted in connection with loans. I have seen wooden platforms, which the newspapers said cost $10,000, erected for the purposes of parades, speeches, actresses who have been brought from the United States-and that during this strenuous period of the war. More than that, expenditures have been incurred for transportation, staterooms, meals, luncheons, hotel bills, and many other things which the war expenditures committee long ago should have stopped. I do not wish to criticize the national committee; far from it. But I do say that these are expenditures that should be investigated. I have spoken to many business men, some of them connected with

Government Loan
banks and others representing large taxpayers in the city I come from, and this is their view.
I- am not one of those who are eager to criticize the loan; not at all. But there are a great many people who are suggesting that the time has come now to cut out the frills, because we are in the fifth year of the war, and it should not be necessai-y for us to go to Hollywood to get actors and actresses to help us to sell bonds to the Canadian people. I do hope that the loan will be a great success. That hope is shared by everyone else. I repeat, however, that the time has come for us to cut down materially on these unnecessary expenditures. That sort of thing may have been all right in the first two or three years of the war, but the- Canadian people realize now that the winning of the war is the main thing. That is our sole objective at the moment. Nothing else matters. There will be no financing of anything, and life itself will be unbearable, if we do not win the war. All domestic matters, however important they may be, must be subordinated to this end. They can wait.
I suggest to the acting minister that some new and more modern method of financing ought to be announced, and it should be an improvement on some of the practices that we have followed in the past. I would point out that this is a changing war. As I say, we are in the fifth year of the war and changes are being made from week to week, from month to month, in machines in the air, on land and on the sea, and in connection with equipment and supplies of various kinds. Many things which were perfectly legitimate, many things which were in every way modern and efficient but a short time ago, have been rendered obsolete by research and scientific investigation generally in this changing war.
I see the financial critic of the opposition, the hon. member for Danforth (Mr. Harris), is here, and I appeal to him, as I do to every other member of the house, to urge upon the government the importance of giving to the public, before the first day of the victory loan campaign, a comprehensive statement along the lines I have indicated from someone in the finance department. I. am not saying all this merely to indulge in destructive criticism. I would not have said anything but for the fact that myself I have noticed some of the things I have pointed out. I may say, I noticed some of it in the last war also. My object is to see if we cannot effect some economies.


Mr. MacNICOL:: I have just one or two questions to ask. I have forgotten what the debate was when the resolution was before the house. I do not remember whether the parliamentary assistant told us anything of the nature of the public works.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I covered that.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I notice in the last five lines of section two that the money apparently is to be divided among four different objectives: first, for paying or redeeming the whole or any portion of loans or obligations of Canada; second, for purchasing and withdrawing from circulation from time to time unmatured securities of Canada; and for the third and fourth objects, public works and general purposes. Would the parliamentary assistant tell us something about the provision for general purposes?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Gladly. Probably my hon. friend was not in his place when I spoke on the resolution. I made an explanation at that time.


John Ritchie MacNicol: If it is in Hansard, never mind.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I explained to the hon. member for Yale (Mr. Stirling) that the language in this bill is the same as that used in similar bills in the last ten or fifteen years. It is entirely for refunding purposes, maturing securities. This general language is and has been used in all these loan acts going back to the late twenties. I pointed out, at page 1664 of Hansard, that while the language is "for public works and general purposes", any moneys received from the proceeds of such loans must be paid into the consolidated revenue fund ind can be paid out of that fund only by virtue of parliamentary authority. If my hon. friend will look at page 1664 he will see that I explained the situation in answer to a question asked by the hon. member for Yale.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am sorry to have taken up the time of the committee.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: The other evening I asked a question of the parliamentary assistant. I wonder whether he has an answer.


Douglas Charles Abbott: My hon. friend asked with regard to the national debt in September, 1939 and 1919. He wished to know whether the federal government at any time during the last twenty-five years has paid off maturing obligations out of assets other than borrowings. I indicated at the time that it had, but I did not have the figures available. I have hera
Government Loan

a table showing the funded debt and treasury bills of Canada as at March 31 of each year from 1914 up to January 31, 1944. It shows the amount outstanding of funded debt on those various dates, and annual interest charges. That table will give all the information which my hon. friend asks for, and it would save time if, with the permission of the committee, I put it on Hansard:
Dominion of Canada Funded Debt, including Treasury Bills Outstanding and the Annual Interest Charges Thereon
March	Amount	Annual interest31st	outstanding	charges1914	$ 311,833,272	$ 11,162,0471915	358,659,932	13,075,4471916	508,000,366	20,499,6961917	893,208,877	39,098,5791918	1,472.098,608	71.121,3681919	2,035,218,097	102,218,4891920	2,596,816,821	134,559,3021921	2.520.997,021	130,416,0071922	2,564,587,671	133,482,1131923	2,547,105,821	131,476,5111924	2,504,033,820	128,571,3371925	2,503,763,169	125,928,0711926	2,484,410,336	125,108,7381927	2,439,340,736	123,399,9111928	2,377,581,086	119,479,4001929	2,325,413,986	116,843,9341930	2,250,837,286	112,942,2151931	2.320,832,286	115,491,955'1932	2.579.238,724	128,188,9691933	2,715,977,874	132,866,5431934	2,858.624,524	132,354,8061935	3,061,955,821	127,074,8701936	3,265.314.332	128,598,9081937	3.337,358,832	125,095,3811938	3,314.558,032	117,062,9071939	3,385.722,462	119,198,4761939 (August 31)..	3,433,059,035	116,270,6981940	3,695,705,919	125,575,1061941	4,371,990,592	133,969,7351942	5,865.264.293	170,217,8451943	7,893,478.423	204,895,8931944 (January 31)	10,561,454,024	266,312,936


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Does the table answer the question brought up a moment ago as to meeting maturing obligations?


Douglas Charles Abbott: It may interest the committee to know that from 1914 to 1922 the amount of net funded debt outstanding steadily increased. From 1922 to 1930 it decreased. From 1931 to 1936 the debt increased, and from 1937 to 1938 it decreased. Then of course, since the beginning of the war, it has increased; and as these figures indicate, naturally the decrease means that the amounts repaid were paid out of budget surpluses.


Mr. ADAMSON:: Would it include the
funded debt of the Canadian National Railways as well?


Douglas Charles Abbott: No. It includes the direct funded debt.
	j


Mr. QUELCH:: While the national debt
decreased from 1924 to 1930 and we had a
balanced budget during that period, nevertheless the provincial debt increased during the period by about half a billion dollars. The national debt decreased about $250,000,000, but the provincial debt increased half a billion, so that naturally we had, during that period, an increase of $250,000,000 in public debt.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 3 and 4 agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


[Stage Direction]
Mr. D. C. ABBOTT (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to bring in a measure to provide for the refunding of matured, maturing and callable financial obligations of the Canadian National Railways and for the issue of securities guaranteed by the Dominion of Canada in respect of such refunding to an aggregate principal amount not exceeding $200,000,000.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. McCann in the chair.
Victor Quelch: What is the existing rate of interest on the obligations it is proposed to refund?


Douglas Charles Abbott: 
Charles Edward Johnston: Are any
perpetual bonds of the Canadian National Railways still outstanding?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Yes. As of December 31, 1937, there were outstanding in the hands of the public Canadian National perpetual issues totalling $279,447,713.25. That amount has now been reduced to $15,787,422.86 or, as my hon. friend will appreciate, a reduction of some $260,000,000.


Charles Edward Johnston: What is the rate of interest on those still outstanding?


Douglas Charles Abbott: There is still outstanding $1,566,288 of Grand Trunk Railway five per cent perpetual capital stock; $7,228,143.67 of four per cent consolidated debenture stock of the Grand Trunk Railway; $1,002,582 of Great Western five per cent debenture stock, $38,000 of Northern Railway four per cent debenture stock, $2,433 of Northern Railway six per cent bonds, $4,190,964 of Canadian Northern Railway four per cent debenture stock, $972,998 of Canadian Northern Ontario Railway four per cent debenture stock, $470,212 of Canadian Northern Quebec Railway four per cent debenture stock and $315,272 of Quebec and Lake St. John four per cent debenture stock.


Charles Edward Johnston: Apparently quite a few were called in by the government.


Douglas Charles Abbott: There were over $260
million called in.


Charles Edward Johnston: What was necessary in order to redeem those on the part of the government?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I am advised that was part of the repatriation of securities held in Great Britain.


Mr. HARRIS (Danforth):: In 1938, legislation was passed providing that the railways could take care of maturities to the extent of $200 million. There is still some $50 million of the 1938 appropriation available. With the
passing of this legislation $250 million will be available. In my opinion it is not necessary that we should ask at this time for $200 million, in view of the fact that we already have $50 million. The very most that the railway company can to-day find available for discharge is $145 million, and I would ask the minister if he would put on record the maturities which are callable and which are being taken care of, or which will be taken care of out of this $200 million.
Just why we should leave a matter of $145 million, over and above the amount mentioned in this resolution, with the railway company to take care of obligations in 1950, I cannot say. I do not understand why we should project ourselves so far ahead. Parliament will be meeting again, and the railway will come forward with its requirements from year to year.
At the same time I make the observation that there are only $15 million of the high cost perpetuals left to take care of. What are the other high cost securities which will be taken care of by this $200 million plus the $50 million they have at present available? Would it not be better policy to clean up the first $200 million before we go ahead with another $200 million, so that we might start on each occasion with a clean sheet.


Douglas Charles Abbott: As I said a moment ago, there are $257,575,477.47 of securities which mature or are callable up to the end of 1950.


Joseph Henry Harris: The depositions given elsewhere are to the effect that there are only $145 million.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I have the particulars before me, and I am emphasizing that they mature or are callable.


Joseph Henry Harris: Yes.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I have the data here. It is rather lengthy, and perhaps it would serve my hon. friend's purpose if I were to place the table on Hansard.


Joseph Henry Harris: I think it ought to be placed on Hansard. How many of the $247 million are in the years 1948 to 1950?


Douglas Charles Abbott: There are $15 million in 1946, $23,754,000 in 1946 and $971,785.73 in 1950.


Joseph Henry Harris: What is the rate of interest?
C.N.R.-Guarantee of Securities


Douglas Charles Abbott: I can give my hon. friend the list he desires. I have the table here giving details of the issues and maturities of the securities which are maturing or callable up to and including 1950. As I have said, the total is $257,575,477.47. Would it serve my hon. friend's purpose if I placed this table on Hansard, with the permission of the committee?


Joseph Henry Harris: Is any provision made for the negotiating of some of the longer term securities which carry high rates of interest? Has the railroad system the power to negotiate some of the long term securities which go beyond 1950? Is it the policy to discharge those obligations during these times of greater revenues?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I am not quite sure that I understand what my hon. friend means w'hen he refers to negotiating the extension of these securities.


Joseph Henry Harris: Negotiating a discharge of the obligation by paying it off.


Douglas Charles Abbott: The railroad has authority to pay off maturing obligations. Many of the securities referred to in this table which I am placing on Hansard do not mature prior to 1950, but they are callable prior to that date. The reason for asking for statutory authority to enable the railroad to make refunding loans is to enable the railroad, if market conditions are such that it would be advantageous to do so, to call in high coupon securities and refund with lower coupon securities. The table follows:
Canadian National Railway Company Maturing or Callable Bond Issues, 1944-1950
Int. Rate	Where	AmountDate	Issue	per cent	payable	outstandingJuly 1, 1969	(callable July 1, 1944)...	Can. Nat. Rly.	Canada, London	Dom. gtd.	5	or New York	$ 56,704,000 00Dec. 15,1950	(callable Dee. 15, 1945)..	Can. Nat. Rly.	Dom gtd.	3	Canada	50,500,000 00Jan. 15, 1946	Can. Nat. Rly.	Dom. gtd.	21	Canada	15,000,000 00July 1, 1946	Can. Northern Rly.	Dom. gtd.	61	New York	23,754,000 00Feb. 1, 1952	(callable Feb. 1, 1948)...	Can. Nat. Rly.	Dom. gtd.	3	Canada	20,000,000 00Feb. 1.1953	(callable Feb. 15, 1948)..	Can. Nat. Rly.	Dom. gtd.	3	Canada	25,000,000 00Oct. 1,1969	(callable Oct. 1, 1949)...	Can. Nat. Rly.	Canada, London	Dom. gtd.	5	or New York	57,728,500 00Apr. 2, 1950	Can. Northern	Pacific Rly.	Gtd. by prov. of	British Columbia	4	London	971,785 73Apr. 2, 1950	[DOT] -do-	41	London	1,165,819 74July 1, 1950	Grand Trunk	Western Rlrd.	4	New York or London	6,551,372 00Oct. 1. 1950 	Montreal &	Province Line	Rly.	4	New York	200,000 00
Recapitulation:
Payable in Canada	
Payable in New York	
Payable in London	
Payable in Canada, London, or New York Payable in London or New York	
$257,575,477	1 us 1
$110,500,000	00
23,954,000	00
2,137,605	47
114,432,500	00
6,551,372	00
$257,575,477	47

C.N.R.-Guarantee oj Securities


Thomas Langton Church: The resolution provides for the refunding of matured, maturing and callable financial obligations of the Canadian National Railways and for the issue of securities guaranteed by the Dominion of Canada in respect of such refunding, to an aggregate principal amount not exceeding 8200,000,000. The volume of business of the railroads during this war in terms of trains, coaches, rolling stock, freight, ocean, and land services such as hotels, is sky-high as compared with the volume of business in the last war. The railroads of Canada and the United States have been making considerable money out of this war. A pamphlet was issued by the national city bank of New York, which has large investments in United States and Canadian railroads, outlining the comparison in traffic in the two wars and the methods of financing.
A return was made to the house last session showing the earnings of the two railroad systems during the present war. Up to the close of 1940, the first fifteen months of the war, the Canadian National Railways, a public utility, had made 82,500,000, and I believe the earnings of the other railroad were about $2,750,000. These railroads have made more in fifteen or sixteen months of this war than they did during the whole of the last war.
Some of these securities should have been retired out of earnings. Why should we pyramid interest and principal sky-high and not pay something off? The earnings are so large that they could easily have paid off half of these maturing and callable financial obligations. The day of payment is being postponed and the interest debt for generations yet unborn will be fabulous.
We have the committee on railways and shipping which used to be set up by means of a resolution. However, at the last session and the session before, the committee was appointed simply by not giving notice in votes and proceedings. It is now a standing committee and no resolution needs to be passed by the house. When a resolution was presented there was an opportunity for debate and the company had to put their cards on the table. Now all we know about it is a resolution like this one, to pay in the future. If it is passed a report will come in the dying days of the session from this useless select committee. I doubt whether any of the reports were concurred in last session.
Some of the obligations herein were incurred during the days when the company had very big eyes, when they were building branch lines and duplicating hotel and other ocean and land services without any hope of ever being able to pay the fixed charges. Ontario is the forgotten province as far as rolling stock and
other matters are concerned. Some of the subsidiaries which operate in the United States have the best of rolling stock and equipment, but all Ontario gets are the old rattle-box cars with which to move troops and civilians. The troops, as soldiers, should be given cut rates, but this public utility and government railway is charging very high rates. No weekend rates for soldiers are given even in the Toronto district or in the district represented by you, Mr. Chairman.
This is not the kind of government financing we should have in the fifth year of the war. Part of these obligations should be paid out of earnings. I doubt whether there is sufficient security for many of the subsidiaries of this company. The hon. member for Lincoln (Mr. Lockhart) is familiar with one subsidiary of this railway. There are two old boats running between Toronto and Port Dalhousie. Fifteen or twenty years ago one of these boats was not considered good enough to run between Prince Edward Island and the mainland. But it is dumped down in Toronto and is now considered good enough for Ontario.
The members who represent Ontario do not act as a unit like the maritime members and those who come from the Pacific coast or the prairies. Ontario has to put up with these things because nothing is said here about them. There is no doubt that the railroads have made a magnificent and glorious showing in this war. The load in passengers and freight they have been carrying constitutes a marvellous record. I submit that the railways and shipping committee should be asked to make a report on this particular matter because if they are going to function, they should function properly.
The hon. member for York-Sunbury (Mr. Hanson) was absolutely right when he suggested that the auditors' report should be referred to the committee. Parliament appoints the auditors and they are supposed to be responsible to parliament, but we never see the audit. How many members of this House of Commons have seen it? I know I have never seen it. This committee should be set up the first or second day of the session. This railroad has been making tremendous earnings and it should be giving some of them back to the people who will have to pay this debt. Some relief should be given from the high rates that are being charged, especially at week-ends. There should be relief granted in freight rates also. Our soldiers and civilians should not have to ride in the rattle-boxes in which they often are forced to ride while United States subsidiary lines, on which a large sum of money has been spent by this
19S6
COMMON?
C.N.R.-Guarantee of Securities
government, are using luxurious trains. I have seen them coming into the depots over the right of way. We should have details of expenditures by the railways. After all is said and done, who can answer any questions about this railway? If you ask for information about it, you are told that it is not in the public interest to give it. The railway is investigated secretly by a committee, which brings down a report a day or two before the session ends.
There should also be an improvement in the method of financing. They are paying from 1 to 1 i per cent too much in interest rates. The loans which have been made should have cost the country less through a better interest rate.


Joseph Henry Harris: I endorse a great deal of what the hon. member who has just taken his seat has said. I would like the minister to confirm the figure that he gave a moment ago as to the rate of interest in refunding Dominion of Canada securities.


Douglas Charles Abbott: The loans which are now being made by the government are at 3i per cent interest.


Joseph Henry Harris: I would make this observation. There is a loan of $20,000,000 callable February 1, 1948, and due February 1, 1952, at three per cent; another one due February 1, 1953, callable February 15, 1948, for $25,000,000. Is it the intention that these loans will be called on the callable date in view of the fact that we have to pay 3i per cent interest now?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I cannot say whether they will be called on the callable date. Obviously that would depend on the interest rate prevailing at that time. If the interest rate then was the same as it is to-day, 3i per cent, I think it is fair to say that they would not be called. If on the other hand, the rate should be two per cent, as it was before the war, perhaps it is a fair assumption that they would be called.


Joseph Henry Harris: That was the deposition I wanted to get from the parliamentary assistant that they would not be called, because over and above the amount of the interest rate, there is the cost of issuing new securities, brokerage and what not, which runs into sizable figures.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Can the parliamentary assistant give the total debt of the Canadian National Railways, including bonded indebtedness and any moneys owing to consolidated revenue fund? I understand the practice has been followed during the war of lending money directly from consolidated revenue to the

Canadian National Railways to make it unnecessary for them to sell bonds in competition with the government. Would the parliamentary assistant also give the comparative figure before the war to show what the trend is?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I am afraid I have not comparative figures to show what it was before the war. I can give the total funded debt of the Canadian National Railways as of December 31, 1943, and the other information could be given when the bill is in committee. The total funded debt as of December 31, 1943 was $744,232,472.60, made up as follows: Guaranteed by the Dominion of Canada, $685,290,924.76; guaranteed by the provinces, $2,786,056.20; unguaranteed, $33,479,491.64; unguaranteed serial equipment issues, $22,676,000; totalling the figure I have mentioned.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: That is only funded indebtedness?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Yes.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: It does not
include any money the railway borrowed from the government, does it?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I think I would have to ask my hon. friend to let that question stand.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: What is the amount of interest paid by the railway per annum?


Douglas Charles Abbott: The total annual interest charges as of December 31,	1943, were


Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: When will this loan be made?


Douglas Charles Abbott: This is an enabling measure, similar to the act passed in 1938, to authorize the railway company to issue from time to time refunding loans to take care of other issues which mature or are callable between now and the end of 1950.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The rate is 3i per cent? Does that interfere with the victory loans? These railway issues are guaranteed by the government.


Douglas Charles Abbott: At the present time that is the interest rate being paid by the railway on advances made by the government. It is somewhat higher than the rate which the government itself is paying for the money it is borrowing through the victory loans.


Mr. McNEVIN:: What amount of profit did the railway turn into consolidated revenue fund this year?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I will answer my hon. friend in this way. As I stated in my opening

Exchequer Court Act
remarks the cash surpluses for 1941, 1942 and 1943 have been applied to the extent of $22,622,073.15 in repayment of loans made by the government, under the refunding act of 1938. The surpluses for those three years aggregate-
I have not the exact figure here-in excess of $60,000,000. The balance of approximately $40,000,000 has been applied to reduce sundry advances made to the railway by the government for capital purposes. The point I emphasized before was that the railway company has not retained any portion of its surpluses during those years.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Abbott thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 64, respecting the Canadian National Railways and to provide for the refunding of matured, maturing and callable obligations.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



EXCHEQUER COURT ACT


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Friday, March 24, consideration in committee of bill No. 35, to amend the Exchequer Court Act-Mr. St. Laurent-Mr. McCann in the chair.
On section 2-Power to appoint a deputy judge.
Thomas Langton Church: I should like to know from the Minister of Justice whether the only change is the adding of another judge to the court?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: That is all.


Thomas Langton Church: I think another judge is necessary. We all know that after the last war a large number of contracts were involved in proceedings before the court, and many years elapsed before they were all settled. The government has announced a new policy by which a certain percentage is paid-I suggest fifty per cent; in the United States, I believe it is sixty per cent, which will mean a great deal more work for the court. As I understand it, this court is excluded from the provincial field as regards royal commissions appointed by provincial attorneys general under the Inquiries Act, which is both federal and provincial in its application, and these judges will not be liable for commission duty, whether federal or provincial.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I have not looked at the exact terms of the statute, but I do not know of any case of a judge of the exchequer court having been requested to act as a commissioner under the Inquiries Act; and no change is being made by this bill. But I should need to look at the terms to see
whether the president and a puisne judge of the exchequer court would be competent to be called. I know of no case in my experience at the bar where it has happened.


Thomas Langton Church: It seems to me that in view of the work which the exchequer court is doing, and which is largely financial, business and commercial, there should be a much higher scale of fees. The revenues of the court should be very considerable in view of the magnitude of the contracts and other business involved, and so far as I know they have not been raised, at any rate very much, since the last war. Surely the country should not have to pay the whole of the bill for a court like this. In my opinion it should be self-sustaining.
Mr. ST. LAURENT. A great many cases which come before the exchequer court are claims by the subject against the crown, and I do not know that it would be proper to increase the scale of fees which the subject would be called upon to provide when making a claim against the crown. There are other fields of jurisdiction where, perhaps, the suggestion of the hon. member could very well be considered, and I should be glad to take it up with the officers of my department. But I should not like to give the impression that there is any intention of increasing the cost to the subject when prosecuting a claim against the crown.


John George Diefenbaker: The services of exchequer court judges have been used on occasion on royal commissions, have they not? As a matter of fact, they have been used on provincial royal commissions as well as federal royal commissions. I thought, in view of the statement made by the minister, there might be some misunderstanding in that connection. I have here a return, No. 182 of 1941, dealing with the question of royal commissions, a matter which I brought up the other evening. From 1923 to the date of the return there were, I believe, eighty-one royal commissions set up upon which judges have sat, and some very large fees have been paid to judges in this connection in addition to their salaries. In one case the fees during the period amounted to over S40,000, and in one or more other cases exceptionally large fees or allowances have been paid. So far as the exchequer court is concerned, at least two commissions- one under the Department of Fisheries, another Under the Department of Labour- were presided over by a judge of the exchequer court. I think, having regard to the fact that there is such a considerable body of work to be done by judges, they should not
Exchequer Court Act

be utilized in connection with royal commissions. According to the last figures available the number of judges in Canada is 278. Some of them are sitting on government boards, others on commissions and the like. I again bring to the attention of the minister the need of making a provision that, in the interests of their own independence, if for no other reason, judges should not be allowed to accept extra allowances by occupying positions on royal commissions. This is a practice which is productive of considerable criticism. The other night mention was made of a situation in the province of Saskatchewan. I suggest to the minister that he give consideration to making provision that the judiciary shall be used exclusively as a judiciary and that its services shall not be used in connection with commissions, particularly those involving political considerations of any kind.


The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. McCann) :: Shall the section carry?


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: No. It is six o'clock and I do not see any reason why we should go on. Would the minister entertain an amendment to this bill along the lines I suggested the other evening? It seems to mo, if another judge is required in the exchequer court, because of the extra business during the war and in the immediate postwar period, that a time limit should be set. An appointment could be made for, let us say, three or five years, and if at the end of that time it were found that there was still sufficient work to warrant another judge in the exchequer court a bill could be passed by the house for another period. What we are doing now is creating a position in perpetuity. If, after the war, we should come to a time when there would be a small amount of work in this court we shall still have this position, and it is very unlikely that we shall reduce the size of the exchequer court to what it was in the days before the war when we had only two judges. Would the minister consider that suggestion before the legislation is finally passed?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I should not like to undertake to find a judge who would accept an appointment to the exchequer court for any period such as the hon. member mentions. The experience of the last several years has shown that there is more war work there than the two judges of the court can perform as expeditiously as those who have to come before the court would like to see generally; and it has been felt that it would be in the public interest to provide an additional judge in that court. I do not think it would be
[Mr. Diefenbaker.l
possible to do so if the legislation were to have a limitation as to time. I do not. think the House of Commons would be well advised to try to determine at this time what should be done a few years hence. I kiiow it is always difficult to reduce the complement of a court; but should a situation arise in the future when Canadian citizens and those having claims against the crown or those against whom the crown has claims felt they no longer required a court to deal with such matters, the matter might properly be brought up, but I should not like to put a limitation upon a bill of this kind, if as is generally recognized there is requirement for an additional judge.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and
passed.
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Thursday, March 30, 1944