1944-03-09

PRIVILEGE-MR. TUCKER

[Stage Direction]
REFERENCE TO STATEMENT OF MR. DOUGLAS (weyburn) IN DEBATE ON MARCH 7
Mr. W. A. TUCKER (Rosthern):: On a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, on Tuesday last the hon. member for Weyburn (Mr. Douglas) categorically denied a statement made by myself as to the policy of the C.C.F. party of British Columbia.


Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I should like to have your ruling. First of all, on a question of privilege has the hon. member the right to deal with what was a question of fact? In the second place, if he is allowed to do that, am 1 permitted to reply to his statement, also on a question of privilege?


Mr. SPEAKER:: I am in this difficulty, that as yet I do not know what is the question of privilege. However, I would hope that
the hon. member who is raising the question would take into consideration what has been said by the hon. member for Weyburn.


Walter Adam Tucker: I will state the question of privilege. The hon. member stated that I was quoting something from a newspaper, without having the newspaper here. A fair inference would be that I was stating to this house something that was incorrect as to the reported policy of his party in British Columbia. I claim the right to show this house that I was stating the situation correctly, and was not attempting to mislead the house by quoting from the newspaper to which I was referring.


Thomas Vien: I cannot agree that this is a question of privilege. Perhaps it could be brought up on the orders of the day, but certainly not as a question of privilege. If there is a dispute between two hon. members as to facts, there are other opportunities when they may make their statements.


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: We can place the facts on record when the debate is resumed.



ARGENTINE REPUBLIC


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, on Tuesday last my hon. friend the leader of the opposition (Mr. Graydon) asked if I would make a statement with respect to the recognition or non-recognition of the present regime in Argentina. I have a statement to make which is a little longer than I might wish it to be. but I believe hon. members will appreciate having a statement given at some length.
The situation in Argentina' of recent months has caused considerable anxiety, both to her neighbours in the western hemisphere and to the united nations. This concern is provoked by the need for solidarity in the western hemisphere against axis intrigues and by the importance of Argentina as a source of foodstuffs and important raw materials for the united nations.
Since a coup d'etat overthrew the administration of President Castillo last June, the control of policies has passed from one military group to another, while the normal processes of democratic government have ceased to operate, parliament has not been summoned, political parties have been dissolved and the newspapers placed under more drastic controls. Within nine months, three generals have in turn exercised presidential powers, while the foreign office has been administered
Argentine Republic

by two admirals and two generals and, in addition, there have been several other cabinet changes.
On January 26 of this year the government of President Ramirez announced a rupture of diplomatic relations with the axis powers because of the revelation of axis intrigues within Argentina which were contrary to its neutrality and a threat to the security of the other American countries. This decision brought Argentina in line with the other countries of the western hemisphere, all of whom have either declared war upon Germany or severed diplomatic relations with her and other axis countries. The decision undoubtedly reflected the pro-allied sympathies of the great majority of the people of Argentina. It was thought to be a forerunner of other acts of hemispheric solidarity and defence.
In the month which followed, certain groups believed not to be in sympathy with the declared Argentine policy of joining the defence of the hemisphere were successful in forcing General Gilbert, Minister of Foreign Affairs to resign on February 15. Ten days later they secured the delegation of the powers of General Ramirez as president to the vicepresident and minister of war, General Farrell.
Following these changes in personnel the United States government instructed its ambassador, Mr. Norman Armour "to refrain from entering into official relations with the new regime pending developments." A statement describing the reasons for the position taken by the United States was issued by Mr. Stettinius, acting Secretary of State, on March 4, which stressed the fact that in Argentina "the support by important elements inimical to the united nations war effort of movements designed to eliminate action already taken could only be a matter of grave anxiety."
In response to a question in the British House of Commons yesterday, the British foreign secretary stated that in view of the obscurity surrounding the circumstances of President Ramirez' delegation of his function to Vice-President Farrell, the British ambassador in Argentina had confined his communications with the Argentine government to routine matters only. The same position had been taken as regards communications between the British government and the Argentine ambassador in London. Mr. Eden also announced that this attitude would be maintained pending developments in Buenos Aires.
The Canadian government has been kept fully informed of developments in Argentina by its legation in Buenos Aires. It has also had the benefit of first hand information from the Hon. W. F. A. Turgeon, who only recently

returned from serving as minister in Argentina. Pending a clarification of what remains a most confused and obscure situation, the government has instructed the Canadian charge d'affaires in Buenos Aires to refrain for the present from any official contacts with the administration of General Farrell. With the people of Argentina our friendship remains unaffected. We hope and trust that Argentina will evolve a policy commensurate with her past, worthy of her citizens and calculated to meet the needs of hemispheric defence.



GRANBY MINING CORPORATION


William Lyon Mackenzie King: On Tuesday last the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) referred to documents which had been tabled concerning relations before the war between Japanese interests and the Granby Mining Corporation. My hon. friend quoted a statement made by the Japanese minister in a letter dated October 22, 1940, to the effect that the contract of the Granby company with the Japanese company had been approved by the Canadian government and added that he could find in the return no document relating to the contract or to approval by the government. I informed the hon. member that my recollection was that the government had had nothing to do with the contract and that I believed this was made clear in the correspondence.
I have now had an opportunity to have the matter checked and I find that my original impression was correct. In the reply dated November 22, 1940, from the Department of External Affairs to the Japanese minister is the following paragraph, and which I should say was in the return which my hon. friend had:
In this connection it should be clearly understood that the contract between the Granby Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company for the sale of its output of copper concentrates to a Japanese purchaser had never been "approved by the Canadian government." So far as the Canadian government was concerned, this arrangement was an ordinary private commercial contract which did not require or receive the approval or disapproval of the Canadian government.
The correspondence itself shows how the idea first gained currency that the Canadian government had given its approval. After the fact was pointed out to the Japanese minister that the contract was a purely commercial transaction which had not been given the approval of the government, the Japanese minister admitted that he had never seen any confirmation of the approval, and added:

Granby Mining Corporation
Pending further instructions from my government, I desire to say with reference to the above, that the intimation I made in our memorandum of the 22nd ultimo to the effect that this sale of copper had been carried on with the approval of the Canadian government had its basis in a passage of the speech Mr. M. J. Coldwell delivered in the House of Commons on July 31, 1940.
This is contained in a letter of November 30, 1940, which is included in the return tabled.
The hon. member referred to the Granby Mining Corporation on three occasions in 1940, and it was really on May 20, at page 53 of Hansard, that he claimed that "the contract was made with the approval of the government," although he did refer to the matter again on July 31.
To conclude this question, I wish merely to point out that the Granby contract was entered into in January, 1940, almost two years before Japan entered the war. It was a commercial contract which the government was not called upon to approve or disapprove. However, as the final item of the correspondence, a letter of December 4, 1940, from Doctor .
O.	D. Skelton to the Japanese minister, makes clear:
Like all such contracts, its performance was subject to the general conditions of the public interest, and it ceased to be binding when the copper requirements of Canada and her allies compelled the Canadian government to withhold further permits for the export of copper from Canada to other countries.


Mr. GRAYDON:: With respect to the question of approval or disapproval, did the Granby Corporation require a licence for the export of that material to Japan, and, if so, did the government grant it?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I cannot say, but I do not think an export licence was required.


Mr. COLDWELL:: Were they not required to have permits for the export of this material subsequent to September, 1939?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I cannot answer that question offhand, but I shall get the information for my hon. friend. What I am surprised at is that when I asked my hon. friend if this statement of mine was not contained in the correspondence which had been tabled, he said he had read the correspondence through and had it in his hand but it was not there.


Major James William Coldwell: I got the return that day and I had it on the desk. I read it through but I missed that paragraph.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


Major James William Coldwell: It is all very well to laugh, but I did not do it deliberately. I never do. My references in the house were based on the questions I asked during the
debate in this house in April, 1940, when I understood it was admitted that the government did know of this and had approved it. Permits had to be given, as I take it.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I do not think so, but I shall make sure.


Major James William Coldwell: The correspondence says so.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My hon. friend says he has read the correspondence, and if he says that the correspondence so states, I will be prepared to take his word for it.


Major James William Coldwell: I shall read it again.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Does my hon. friend say that the correspondence says that permits had to be granted?


Major James William Coldwell: I believe it does; it says that a permit is required.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I do not think it does. We shall look up the facts, anyway.


Major James William Coldwell: In view of the exchange between the Prime Minister and myself a few minutes ago, I would refer him again to copy of letter of December 4, 1940, signed by Doctor
O.	D. Skelton, the last sentence of which reads:
Like all such contracts, its performance was subject to the general conditions of the public interest, and it ceased to be binding when the copper requirements of Canada and her allies compelled the Canadian government to withhold further permits for the export of copper from Canada to other countries.
So that p'ermits were required up to that time.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I would still like to look into that and see if a system of permits was in existence as early as 1940. I know there was a period when permits were required, but whether it was at that time or not I am not wholly sure.



EXPORTS TO SPAIN


William Lyon Mackenzie King: On Tuesday the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) asked me to look into the matter of shipments of war materials from Canada to Spain in view of the rumours concerning such shipments which apparently have been circulated in the United States. I have now had the matter investigated, and I can inform the house that exports from Canada to Spain in recent years have been negligible. In 1943 they were valued at $169,021. The chief product was
Columbia River Basin

short fibre asbestos and asbestos waste used for making building materials.
All shipments to Spain must pass through the allied blockade and must therefore be cleared through the blockade controls. The allied nations obtain from Spain supplies of mercury, wolfram, cork and' other materials which are needed for our war effort or which it is desired to deny to the enemy. Whatever may be the rumours to which the hon. member has referred, war materials are not being sent to Spain from Canada.



COLUMBIA RIVER BASIN


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I should like to make a
statement with reference to matters pertaining to the Columbia river which have been referred for investigation to the international joint commission. I am making the statement now because it has been agreed that it will be made simultaneously at Washington.
The governments of Canada and the United States have agreed to refer to the international joint commission, for investigation and report, the question whether it would be feasible and advantageous to make a greater use than is now being made of the waters of the Columbia river system. The reference to the commission is being made under article IX of the treaty relating to boundary waters between the United States and Canada, signed on January 11, 1909.
As questions concerning the Columbia river basin are of great interest to the province of British Columbia, the government of that province has been consulted at all stages in the drafting of this reference.
The report of the international joint commission will not be binding on the governments concerned, but it is likely that the investigations of the commission will result in suggestions and recommendations which will be carried into effect by joint action of the two governments.
The commission has to date dealt with nine separate applications with reference to specific problems concerning the Columbia river and its tributaries. The present reference concerns the entire Columbia river system. It is based on the realization that a large part of the water resources of the two countries in this important river basin is being allowed1 to go to waste because of lack of adequate regulation and control, and upon the desirability of more effective flood control. The investigation by the commission will cover domestic water supply and sanitation, navigation, efficient development of water power, the control of

floods, the needs of irrigation, the reclamation of wet lands, the conservation of wild life and other beneficial public purposes.
When the commission has completed its investigations there will be available to the two governments a complete and detailed report on the best uses to which the waters of this vast river basin can be put.
The Columbia river is 1,200 miles long. In comparison, the St. Lawrence from Duluth to Father Point is 1,700 miles long. The watershed of the Columbia river is 259,000 square miles, of which 39,400 are in Canada.
At present there is a total installed capacity of approximately 450,000 horse-power in the Columbia river basin in Canada. The studies to be undertaken by the commission will determine the total potential water power in the basin.
The Columbia is a truly international river. Any development, and particularly any power development, of the resources of the river on one side of the boundary is certain to have an effect in the other country. For this reason it is necessary that the plans for development of the river basin in one country should be adapted to those in the other.
It is unlikely that a complete report by the commission will be available for several years, but it is expected that the commission will bring out interim reports from time to time with regard to projects which might be integrated with post-war rehabilitation plans.
I now table for the information of the house copies in English and French of the reference by the Canadian government to the international joint commission.


Mr. THOMAS REID (New Westminster):: May I be permitted to ask the Prime Minister a question regarding the commission which is to inquire into the Columbia river? Will he consider referring to the commission the question of the violation by the United States of the agreement by building dams across the line w'ithout consulting this country, thereby denying to Canadian citizens the rights they had under the treaty of 1845?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My hon. friend's question is not so much a question as an assertion of something of which whether it is true or not I do not know.


Thomas Reid: Then he will have to take the word of an hon. member.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	In what provinces are liens filed against the property of old age and blind pensioners?

Questions
2.	Is the filing of such liens the subject of any arrangement or agreement between the provinces and federal government?


Mr. ABBOTT:: Stand.


Mr. KNOWLES:: Will the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance give the reason for the long delay in the answer to this question? It has been on the order paper for a month.
Question stands.


GRAIN-STREET PRICES AND FREIGHT RATES
Mr. DONNELLY:: 1.	What was the street price of No. 1 Northern wheat at stations taking a 25-eent
freight rate in western Canada on December 16, 1929; December 16, 1932, and December 16, 1943?
2.	What was the street price of No. 1 C.W. white oats at stations taking a 25-cent freight rate in western Canada on December 16, 1929; December 16, 1932, and December 16, 1943?
3.	What was the street price of No. 1 C.W. 6-row barley at stations taking a 25-cent freight rate in western Canada on December 16, 1929; December 16, 1932, and December 16, 1943?
4.	What was the street price of No. 1 C.W. flaxseed at stations taking a 25-cent freight rate in western Canada on December 16, 1929; December 16, 1932, and December 16. 1943?
5.	What was the street price of No. 1 C.W. rye at stations taking a 25-cent freight rate in western Canada on December 16, 1929; December 16, 1932, and December 16, 1943?


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: 
WARTIME PRICES AND TRADE BOARD-REGINA INSPECTORS OR REPRESENTATIVES
Mr. PERLEY:: 1.	Are T. G. Derrington and H. C. Watson, of Regina, Saskatchewan, employed as inspectors or representatives of the wartime prices and trade board out of the Regina office?
2.	If so, (a) what were their respective salaries and expense accounts for the last year; (b) are they permitted to act as collectors of accounts owing to companies or private individuals?


Mr. ABBOTT:: 1.	Yes. Both men are investigators on the staff of the Enforcement counsel for Saskatchewan.
2.	(a) T. G. Derrington-salary $1,800 per annum plus cost of living bonus. Travelling
expenses during the calendar year 1943, $777.96.
H.	G. Watson-salary $1,800 per annum plus cost of living bonus. Travelling expenses during the calendar year 1943, $476.85.
(b)	To obtain the required skilled personnel for the board's staff, it has been necessary, on occasion, to employ members of the staff for most, but not all of their time, allowing them to devote some attention to their private affairs. In such cases, it is arranged that private business must not be given attention during the board's business hours, and that there must be no conflict with duties to the board, which are paramount. These arrangements were made with Mr. Derrington and Mr. Watson, and have been carried out.
Questions


SPECIAL PRODUCTS BOARD-ALFALFA OR OTHER SEEDS
Mr. BRYCE:: What persons, companies or organizations in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta were authorized to purchase alfalfa or other seeds for the special products board?


Mr. GARDINER:: The following persons, companies and organizations in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta have been authorized by the special products board to issue participation certificates on its behalf, on seed purchased from growers:
Manitoba-
Steele, Briggs Seed Company, Limited, Winnipeg.
Brett-Young, Limited, Winnipeg.
McCabe Brothers Grain Company, Limited, Winnipeg.
Searle Grain Company, Limited, Winnipeg. Manitoba Pool Elevators, Limited, Winnipeg. Federal Grain, Limited, Winnipeg.
A.	M. Thomson, Melita.
J. S. Wheatley, Deloraine.
C. C. Campbell and Son, Reston.
E. Holmgren and Son, Sprague.
A. E. McKenzie Company, Limited, Brandon. Seed Marketing Company, Limited, Winnipeg.
Saskatchewan-
Steele,	Briggs	Seed	Company,	Limited,
Regina.
Bell's Limited, Prince Albert.
Newfield Seed & Nursery Farms, Codette. Newfield Seed & Nursery Farms, Nipawin.
S.	A. Early and Company, Saskatoon.
Hood Land Company, Limited, Hudson Bay Junction.
J. H.	Speers	and	Company,	Limited,
Saskatoon.
Saskatchewan Forage Crop Growers' Cooperative Marketing Assoc., Ltd., Prince Albert.
Alberta-
Alberta	Seed	Growers' Assoc.,	Limited,
Edmonton,
Capital Seed & Poultry Supply, Edmonton. Grimm Alfalfa Seed Growers of Alberta, Limited, Brooks.
Steele,	Briggs	Seed'	Company,	Limited,
Edmonton.
Philip Keeley, Sangudo.
Alberta Seed House, Edmonton. Sangudo-Mayerthorpe & District Seed Growers' Co-operative Assoc., Ltd., Sangudo.
Pembina Valley Co-operative Seed Growers' Marketing Assoc., Limited, Cherhill.

Peace River Seed Growers' Co-operative, Limited, Grande Prairie.
Geo. W. Green & Company, Limited, Lethbridge.


PURCHASE OF PROPERTY IN KINGSTON
Mr. CARDIFF:: 1.	Has the government acquired the property known as Roselawn, at Union St. WTest, Kingston, Ontario?
2.	If so, when, and what was the purchase price?
3.	What is the total of expenditure made by the government on this property since it was purchased?
4.	Who is occupying the property at the present time?


Mr. MACDONALD (Halifax):: 1.	Yes.
2.	21st December, 1942-825,000.
3.	$7,261.10.
4.	No. 103 C.W.A.C. Depot Company.


CANADIAN ARMY
Mr. COLD WELL:: 1.	Has an investigation been conducted recently into alleged irregularities in the conduct of certain persons in military districts Nos. 12 and 13?
2.	If so, are these alleged irregularities relative to the misuse of government purchasing vouchers?
3.	Who is the officer in charge of the investigation ?
4.	What has been the result of this investigation and the nature of the misdemeanours, if any?
5.	What action has been taken?


Mr. RALSTON:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Yes, in most cases.
3.	The officer in charge of the investigation
was the adjutant-general and the quartermaster-general.	.
4	and 5. It is not considered in the public interest at this stage to state what the result of the investigation is. The result of the investigation and the action taken will appear as proceedings are taken which are regarded as warranted having regard to what has been found on investigation.


WARTIME HOUSING LIMITED-HALIFAX
Mr. ISNOR:: 1.	How many staff houses were constructed by the Wartime Housing Limited in Halifax. Nova Scotia, to accommodate men employed in war work?
2.	How are they known or designated?
3.	What was the total cost of, (a) construction; (b) furnishing of same?
4.	How many men will each accommodate?
5.	How many men were registered and actually occupied rooms as on December 31, 1943?

Questions
6.	What rental and board is charged per man per week?
7.	What has been the total cost of construction, furnishing and maintenance from date of erection to December 31, 1943?
8.	What has been the total revenue for rental and board to December 31, 1943?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: 1.	1 Seamen's manning pool;
1 Deep water commissary;
1	Port control building;
6 Staff houses and 1 commissary;
6 Staff houses and 1 commissary;
2	Staff houses at Eastern Passage;
1 Women's staff house at Eastern Passage;
5	Bunk houses and 1 commissary, hiring and dispatching building.
2.	1 Seamen's manning Pool, Halifax No. 4.
1 Commissary (deep water commissary for Department of Labour), Halifax No. 12.
1 Port control building (Department of Labour), Halifax No. 6.
6	Staff houses and 1 commissary (R.C.A.F.) Harbourview, Dartmouth No. 3.
6 Staff houses and 1 commissary (Wartime Housing Limited) Mulgrave Park, Halifax No. 3.
1 Staff house, Eastern Passage No. 3.
1 Staff house, Eastern Passage, No. 4.
1 Women's staff house, Eastern Passage No. 5.
5 Bunk houses and 1 commissary, also hiring and dispatching building, Halifax No. 10.
3.
1 Seamen's manning pool	
1 Deep water commissary	
1 Port control building	
6 Staff houses and commissary (R.C.A.F.) 6 Staff houses and commissary (Wartime
Housing Limited)	
1 Staff house (Eastern Passage)	
1 Staff house (Eastern Passage)	
1 Women's staff house and commissary (Eastern Passage)	
5 Bunk houses and 1 commissary	
These figures are estimates.
Cost of Construction
Cost of Furnishing and Equipment
$258,463 37	$35,033	5117,500	00*	4,000	00*Cost paid by Department of Labour. 311,524 94	35,087	25
291,068 38 34,150 00 33,976 00
63,570 30 3.283 40 3,954 09
56,200 00* estimate not complete and includes furniture. Cost paid by the C.N.R.
4.	Seamen's manning pool, port control building and staff houses for R.C.A.F. are not controlled by Wartime Housing Limited. There are no occupancy reports for these buildings in the possession of our department.
Capacity
1	Deep water commissary		150 seats
6 Staff houses (Wartime Housing) 529 beds
2	Staff houses (Eastern Passage) 176 beds 1 Women's staff house (Eastern
Passage)	 60 beds
5.	Out of the 705 beds available, as at December 25, 1943, 643 beds were occupied. The women's staff house is not complete.
6.	AVeekly rental rates, $5 single, $3.50 double. Weekly board rates, $6 per 21 meals.
7.	$1,147,907.74.
Note.-The above figure does not include port control building (Halifax No. 6), the cost of which was paid by the Department of Labour and the five bunk houses and commissary built for the C.N.R. (Halifax No. 10).
8.	Total revenue for rental and board to December 31, 1943, from opening of projects is $445,720.24 as operated by Wartime Housing Limited.


BEEF FOR SHIPMENT TO BRITAIN
Mr. CARDIFF:: 1.	From whom does the meat board purchase beef for shipment to Great Britain?
2.	What is the basis upon which the price paid by the board is determined?
3.	Has the price the producer receives any relationship to the price paid by the board?
4.	Has the board succeeded in stabilizing the price to the producer by these purchases?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	The meat board purchases beef for shipment to Great Britain from any persons who can supply it as per specifications laid down by the board.
2.	The price paid for beef by the board is based on a seasonally adjusted floor price for beef which ranges from two and one quarter to one quarter cents below the domestic ceiling, depending on the period.
Questions

3.	Purchases of beef by the board provide a price support for cattle yielding carcasses of export quality, but the price for cattle is free to find its own level between the floor and the ceiling.
4.	Export purchases by the board provide a floor price for beef meeting export specifications although there is nothing to prevent prices paid to producers for live cattle from fluctuating between the equivalent beef floor
and ceiling values. Variations in dressing percentage may also have a marked influence on live cattle values.


COAL IMPORTS
Mr. HANSELL:: 1.	How much coal in, (a) tons; (b) Canadian dollar value, was imported into Canada in 1943?
2.	From what countries, and what tonnage from each country?


James Angus MacKinnon: 1 and 2. Canadian imports, by countries, of coal during the calendar year 1943:
Value $	65,002
280,539
Item
Anthracite screenings or dust.
Country	Tons
. United Kingdom 13,502 United States	118,962
Totals	132,464	$ 345,541Anthracite, domestic sizes	United States	204,722 2,974,460	$ 1,554,190 23,589,868Totals	3,179,182	$25,144,058Anthracite, smaller sizes, n.o.p	United States	166,564 1,002,075	$ 1,039,534 4,389,422Totals	1,168,639	S 5,428,956Coal, bituminous, and coal, n.o.p	United Kingdom United States	6,687 23,216,375	$ 46,251 68,995,964
Totals
23,223,062	869,042,215
Coal, lignite
United States
337	$	1,487
Coal, ex-warehoused for ships' stores	United Kingdom
United States
528	8	3,168
404,710	1,280,030
Totals
405,238 S 1,283,198


PRICES-HOGS
Mr. McNEVIN:: What was the price of grade A hogs (dressed weight) on the Toronto jive stock market on November 15, and May 15. in the years, 1929, 1932, 1943, and February 15, 1944?


James Angus MacKinnon: 192912	193212	194325	19442 3 4
per cwt. per cwt. per cwt. per cwt.
May 15	$17	84	$6 01	$16 80	....November 15 15	36	5 22	17 15	....February 15	....	$17 101	Live weight prices basic grade converted to dressed basis.2	Plus $1 per head premium on grade A.3	Plus $1 per head provincial premium on grade A (total, $2 per head).

4	Plus S3 per head dominion premium on grade A (total, $5 per head).


CANADIAN OFFICERS' TRAINING CORPS
Mr. DORION:: 
Mr. MACDONALD (Halifax):: 1.	It was not necessary for a student (C.O.T.C.) to be classed in' medical category "A". He could have been accepted in medical categories "A", "B" or "C" under the former system of categorization. With the abolition of medical categories he can now be accepted with Pulhems profile lower than that required for operational troops.
2.	Yes. For the number of days authorized to train in any fiscal year, at the same rate as authorized for personnel of the Reserve Army; viz.
Lieutenant, if qualified as such___
Lieutenant provisional, or 2nd Lieutenant	
Regimental Sergeant-Major	
All other Warrant Officers, Class 1. Regimental Quartermaster-Sergeant
Staff Quartermaster-Sergeant	
Quartermaster-Sergeant	
Squadron, Battery or Company
Sergeant-Major	
Squadron, Battery or Company Sergeant-Major (other than above) Squadron, Battery or Company
Quartermaster-Sergeant	
Staff-Sergeant	
Sergeant	
Lance-Sergeant, Corporal or Bom-,
hardier	
Lance-Corporal or Lance Bombardier
Private	
Boy	
S9	20
7	70
6	50
5	20
3	CO
3	00
3	70
3	40
2	80
2	50
* 2	20
1	90
1	60
1	40
1	20
0	60
For the year 1943-44 Canadian Officers' Training Corps were authorized to train as follows:
All ranks, 30 days.
Officers and N.C.O.'s, an additional 15 days where instructional duties make this necessary.
3.	Yes. (a) If duly appointed or enlisted members of the C.O.T.C., for the number of days training carried out at the rate of pay for such rank as detailed in Question 2. If covering off vacancies on authorized detail of the administrative and training staff detailed for duty with a C.O.T.C., pay and allowances for full time at Active Force rates, (b) War Appropriation.
4.	(a) Whilst article 86 of Instructions for Canadian Officers' Training Corps authorizes such waiving, this is purely a question for each C.O.T.C., and there is no information available as to how many members have waived their remuneration, or the amount of such waivers, (b) Paid into the Unit fund and used for the general benefit of members
of each Unit, such as the purchase of articles for the comfort of the men which are not obtainable on issue and any other suitable Unit purpose the commanding officer sees fit. All such expenditures have to be properly accounted for and the fund is subject to semiannual audit by the regimental funds board.


RADIO BROADCASTING-NEWS
Mr. MacKENZIE (Lambton-Kent):: 1.	Where are the C.B.C. newscasts in regard to the proceedings of parliament finally edited and prepared for broadcasting?
2.	What are the names of the men and/or women who form the editorial news staffs of the C.B.C.?
3.	Where are they stationed and what are their duties?
4.	Where and by whom were they employed previous to appointment with the C.B.C. and wrhat were their duties?
5.	Bv whom were they appointed to the C.B.C.?
6.	Who recommended their employment by the C.B.C.?
7.	Where were they born?
8.	What is their present remuneration?
Mr. LaFLECHE:
1.	In Canadian Broadcasting Corporation newsrooms located in Toronto, Montreal, Halifax, Winnipeg and Vancouver. National Network bulletins, like the news summary at 10 p.m., are prepared in the CBC central newsroom in Toronto.
2,	3, 4 and 7. Chief Editor: D. C. McArthur, stationed in Toronto. Has general supervision of thd news service. He was with the CBC press and information department before his appointment as chief editor. Prior to joining the CBC in 1939, he was with the Maclean Publishing Company in charge of magazine publicity. His daily newspaper experience was with the Toronto Globe. Born: Brooklyn, NY. Born of Canadian parents and returned to Canada as a child.
Central newsroom-Toronto-Senior Editor: A. E. Powley, now in England in charge of the CBC Overseas news bureau. Had twenty years news experience in Toronto with the Mail and Empire, the Star and .the Telegram. He was telegraph editor of the Telegram at the time of his appointment to the CBC. Born: London, England.
W. H. Hogg: Acting Senior Editor; central newsroom in charge of bulletin production. Formerly with The Canadian Press, Toronto, and before that a reporter of the London Advertiser. Born: London, Ontario.
P. F. Carscallen: Associate Editor; formerly with the Calgary Albertan and the Globe and Mail, Toronto. Born: Calgary, Alta.
.James Kinloch: Associate Editor; formerly with the CBC Press and Information depart-

Questions

ment; before that worked on the Toronto Star; the Sunday Press of London, England; Fort Frances Times and the Perth Courier. Born: Chorley, Lancs., England.
M. B. Smith: Associate Editor; formerly with the Winnipeg Free Press and the Moose Jaw Times-Herald. Born: St. Paul, Minnesota.
It. S. Bryden: Associate Editor; formerly with the Maclean Publishing Company, Toronto, on magazine publicity. Bom: Windsor, Ont.
D.	S. Curtis: Associate Editor; formerly with the Ottawa Journal as a news and sports writer. Born: Toronto, Ont.
Lawrence Duffey: Associate Editor; formerly with the CBC Vancouver newsroom. Before that, with the British United Press, Vancouver. Born: Vancouver, B.C.
Montreal newsroom-French Staff: Jean St. George: Acting Senior Editor; formerly reporter and editor with The Canadian Press, Montreal, and with La Patrie. Bom: Montreal, P.Q.
G. F. Lefebvre: Associate Editor; formerly with Le Canada, La Presse and Le Jour, Montreal. Born: Lachine, P.Q.
B.	Benoit: Associate Editor; worked on L'Evenement, Le Journal, Quebec, Le Soleil, Quebec and La Presse, Montreal. Born: Ste. Therese de Blainville.
L. J. A. Gravel: Associate Editor; formerly commercial editor with radio station CKAC, Montreal. Born: Gravelbourg, Sask.
R. Bourbonnais: Associate Editor; formerly with La Patrie, Montreal as reporter. Bom: Cartierville, P.Q.
English Staff: Edward Dix: Senior Editor; formerly with the Globe, Toronto, Maclean's magazine, Daily Star, Toronto, and the Calgary Albertan. Born:	Martinique, West
Indies.
Harry Shane: Associate Editor; formerly with The Canadian Press, Montreal, and Canadian Financial Bureau, Montreal. Born: Saint John, N.B.
Halifax-V. F. Segee: Senior Editor; formerly with the Fredericton Mail, Saint John Citizen; was radio news editor of radio station CFNB, Fredericton, and also worked with the British United Press, Toronto. Born: Fredericton, N.B.
Margaret MacDonald: Associate Editor; formerly secretary with the Canadian Press, Halifax. Born: Calgary, Alta.
J. G. Murphy: Associate Editor; formerly an editor and feature writer for the Saint John Citizen. Born: Saint John, N.B.
[Mr. LaFleche.1
Winnipeg-W. It. Metcalfe: Senior Editor; formerly city editor and telegraph editor, Winnipeg Free Press. Born:	Portage la
Prairie, Man.
Harold Robson: Associate Editor; on army service before joining CBC staff. Before that, on newspaper reporting with the Peterborough Examiner and the Staffordshire Sentinel in England. Born: Leeds, Yorks., England.
Helen Sinclair: Junior Editor; no previous newspaper experience; a graduate of the University of Manitoba. Born: Wingham, Ontario.
Vancouver-R. E. Elson: Senior Editor; formerly re-write and radio editor with The Canadian Press, Vancouver. Born: Aberdeen, Wash., bom of Canadian parents and returned to Canada as a child.
J.	D. Nixon: Associate Editor; formerly radio news editor with CJCA, Edmonton. Bom: Mortlach, Sask.
W. D. Smith: Associate Editor; formerly free-lance radio and newspaper writer. Bom: England.
E.	A. McLellan: Junior Editor; no news experience, except in the Vancouver newsroom. Bom: New Westminster, B.C.
5.	They were appointed to the CBC by the general manager.
6.	Their appointment to the CBC was recommended to the general manager by the general supervisor of programmes, on the advice of the CBC chief news editor.
7.	See above.
8.	This information has not been made public in the past, as it was not deemed in the public interest to do so.


SOLDIER SETTLERS-ALBERTA
Mr. BLACKMORE:: How many veteran soldier settlers of the 1914-1918 war were evicted from their farms in Alberta during each of the years 1940, 1941. 1942, 1943?


Mr. CRERAR:: 1940, nil; 1941, two; 1942,
nil; 1943, two.


WESTERN FEED GRAIN
John Horne Blackmore: Has the government taken any measures to avoid the development of a shortage of feed grain in western Canada and particularly in southern Alberta, arising out of the shipment of grains to eastern Canada?


James Garfield Gardiner: No representations indicating a shortage of feed grain in western Canada have been made to the Department of Agriculture, but the situation is being watched in different areas.


FRUIT BASKETS AND VEGETABLE CONTAINERS
Mr. CORMAN:: 1.	What supplies are available for the manufacture of fruit baskets and vegetable containers for 1944?

Questions
2.	What arrangements have been completed between the government and the container manufacturers so that the growers can be supplied with these containers for the coming large crop?


Mr. ABBOTT:: 1.	Normal supplies of raw materials are available for the manufacture of fruit and vegetable veneer packages. Assistance is being given by the administrator to maintain a supply of raw materials for basket production where manufacturers are unable to obtain supplies for themselves.
2.	For the year 1943 the production of fruit and vegetable baskets reached record levels. So far, for this season, which is deemed to have begun on November 1, 1943, production has continued through the winter months while last winter basket manufacturers were practically shut down.
The manufacture of fruit packages is under a subsidy arrangement which ensures the manufacturers adequate operating profit margins.
Active assistance is also being given to enable the supply of labour to be maintained at proper levels.
There are limits to the quantity of veneer fruit and vegetable containers that can be produced with existing facilities. Everything
possible is being done to ensure maximum production for this season.
The potential supply situation might be summed' up as follows:
(1)	The carryover of baskets into 1944 by the growers was much larger than is normally the case due to the poor crop in 1943 and peak basket production in that year.
(2)	The manufacture of baskets through the winter months this year together with increased raw material production facilities, would seem to indicate a probable increased production of baskets for the 1944 season of about twenty per cent as compared with 1943.


SHIPMENTS OF ALUMINUM
Mr. CROQUETTE:: 1.	From the 10th September, 1939, to the 7th December, 1941, has Canada delivered any aluminum, either unmanufactured or manufactured, to other countries than Great Britain, the British dominions and the United States?
2.	If so, to what countries has aluminum originating from plants in Canada, been delivered?
3.	What quantity and of what value, to each country, and what were the dates of said deliveries?


James Angus MacKinnon: 1,	2 and 3.
(As exports have many varied forms such as ingots, sheets, utensils, only the total dollar value is given and not the quantity.)				etc.,
Exports of Aluminum Country.	(except to	United Kingdom, British during periods specified. Sept. 1 to Dec. 31, 1939	Possessions and Calendar year 1940	United States) Jan. 1 to Nov. 30, 1941Argentina 	S 976	$ 1,058 J	! 337Brazil 	
103,454	99,694	' 	Chile 	
11,977	3,019	39China 	
63,165	350,150	-Colombia 	
5,564	44,243	233Costa Rica 	834	70Cuba 	
1,411	-	-Egypt 	4,661	5,839France 	4,753,735	-Greece 	639	-Guatemala 	
-	1,273	2,024Honduras 	
10	1,470	1.315Iraq 	-	8,219Japan 	
2,190,444	824,770	-Mexico 	25,933	21,610Netherlands 	
95,202	52,139	-Netherlands East	Indies 	
7,940	300,935	177,078Norway 	1,150	-Peru 	996	-Russia 	~ 	807,743Salvador 	452	-Siam 	82,545	29,995Sweden 	
40.136	16	-Switzerland 	
11,473	-	-Venezuela 	
100-82J	
9,677	4,126	36
Questions


PRICES-WHEAT, OATS, ETC.
Mr. FAIR:: 1.	What was the street price of No. 1 Northern wheat at stations taking a 25-cent freight rate in western Canada on December 16, 1919?
2.	What was the street price of No. 1 C.W. white oats at stations taking a 25-cent freight rate in western Canada on December 16, 1919?
Price per
Grade	Bushel
1.	No. 1 Northern wheat	
2.	No.	2	C.	W. oats	
$0	763.	No.	3	C.	W. barley	
1	344.	No.	1	N.	W. C. flaxseed	
4	685.	No.	2	C.	W. rye	
1	413.	What was the street price of No. 1 C.W. 6-row barley at stations taking a 25-eent freight rate in western Canada on December 16, 1919?4.	What was the street price of No. 1 flaxseed at stations taking a 25-cent freight rate in western Canada on December 16, 1919?5.	What was the street price of No. 1 C.W. rye at stations taking a 25-cent freight rate in western Canada on December 16, 1919?


James Angus MacKinnon: Remarks
No wheat grades quoted.
No. 1 C. W. oats not quoted. No. 1 C. W. 6-row not quoted. No. 1 C. W. flaxseed not quoted. No. 1 C. W. rye not quoted.


SELECTIVE SERVICE-TRANSFERS AND WAGE REDUCTIONS
Mr. MacKENZIE (Lambton-Kent):: 1.	Were charges made in a circular dated November 16, 1943, addressed to members of parliament, municipal officials and others by J. W. Gilbert, Hanover, Ontario, that employers had taken advantage of compulsory labour transfer orders of national selective service, to reduce wages?
2.	If so, was an investigation made into the charges?
3.	What was the result of such investigation?


Mr. MITCHELL:: 1.	Yes. Mr. Gilbert made two complaints concerning the administration of the national selective service civilian regulations.-
(1)	That, under the compulsory employment transfer orders, married men engaged in non-essential work were directed by the employment and selective service office, Walkerton, Ont., to apply for and accept essential employment at lower wage rates;
(2)	That a certain employer in Hanover, Ont., (later identified as William Knech-tel & Son, Limited) had "taken advantage of the compulsory selective service transfer of employees from nonessential work to lower his pay .for beginners" from 36c per hour (cost of living bonus included) in September, to 31c per hour (cost of living bonus included) in November, 1943.
2.	Yes, a very complete investigation.
3.	The result of the investigation indicated that Mr. Gilbert based his complaints on mere hearsay without making any attempt to verify

the information or to secure an understanding of the national selective service civilian regulations involved.	i
With regard to the first complaint, only one married man was directed to and ordered to accept employment by the employment and selective service office at Walkerton under the compulsory employment transfer orders. This man was not directed to the William Kneehtel & Son, Limited, of Hanover, referred to in the second complaint. Furthermore, this man, upon being directed under the compulsory employment orders, received a wage rate of 3c per hour more from the employer to whom he was directed than he did from his former employer. In addition to this, he was directed to employment where he was able to work a greater number of hours per week than he had been working in his original employment. The charge with respect to the transfer of married men is, therefore, unsubstantiated.
In answer to the second complaint, no persons, either single or married, have been directed to employment with the Kneehtel & Son, Limited, referred to. It is true that a number of men have been referred to this employer in accordance with the national selective service civilian regulations. Regarding the rate of wages paid by this firm, the records indicate that from August 1 to the present time every new employee hired received an initial wage rate of 30c per hour, plus 60c per week cost of living bonus. It is wholly untrue and contrary to the facts that the administration of the national selective service civilian regulations made it possible for this employer to lower the wage rate being paid to new employees.

Questions



AUDITOR GENERAL'S REPORT-PROFIT OF 40 PER CENT ON CONTRACT

Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	If the profit of 40 per cent on cost as disclosed by the cost audit on the contract referred to in item 163 on page 50 of the auditor general's report for the year 1942-43 has been explained, what is the explanation?
2.	If adjustment has been made in connection with this item, what are the terms of said adjustment?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: Upon receipt and consideration of the audit report, this contractor who operates a veiry smaJJ business was requested to make a refund reducing the profit. As a result, the company submitted financial statements to show that their annual sales were less than $50,000 and that the profit before considering salary for the proprietor was approximately 10 per cent.
Under the circumstances, it was not considered desirable to press for immediate payment of the refund since to do so would seriously embarrass the company financially and impair its usefulness in filling further contracts. Negotiations are being carried on with a view to final adjustment on an overall basis.



BENTONITE

Mr. WINKLER:: 1.	Is the mineral known as bentonite being imported into Canada at the present time?
2.	If so, what customs or other bordercrossing charges are made?
3.. What inducement, if any, has been given to bentonite producing companies in Canada to enable them to meet the increased demand by Canadian war industries?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Bentonite enters Canada duty free but the 10 per cent special war tax applies and 8 per cent sales tax if applicable.
3.	Bentonite has never been in short supply. No inducement has been offered to Canadian producing companies.


Mr. MATTHEWS:: What amount of honey was produced in each province of Canada during the years 1940, 1941, 1942, 1943, and what was its total approximate-value in each year?


James Angus MacKinnon: Prince Edward Island
Production	 lb.
Value		$
Nova Scotia
Production	 lb.
Value	 $
New Brunswick
Production	 lb.
Value	 $
Quebec
Production	 lb.
Value	 $
Ontario
Production	 lb.
Value	 $
Manitoba
Production	 lb.
Value	 $
Saskatchewan
Production	 lb.
Value	 $
Alberta
Production	   lb.
Value	 $
British Columbia
Production	 lb.
Value	 $
1940	1941	1942	1943*18,900 2,100	12,200 1,500	33,500 4,700	20,00078,200 11,700	82,600 13,200	78,000 14,100	55,000124,000 17,400	124,800 17,500	225,000 36,000	168,8003.112,300 373,500	3,042,600 431,800	4.026.900 676,700	5,000,0009,500,000 902,500	12.000.000 1,260,000	7,800,000 975,000	19,212,0003,669.900 330,300	4,970,000 497,000	3,142,000 377,000	3,750,0003,682,000 385,100	2,966,500 347,900	4,947,100 620,400	6,400,0002.222,000 244,400	3,120,000 374,400	2,500,000 362,500	3,850,0001.264,000 214,900	1,169,000 210,400	1,333,600 280,100	1,275,800
*[DOT][DOT]'Preliminary.
1943 value figures not available.
Questions



PAYMENTS TO ADVERTISING AGENCIES

Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: 1.	What method is employed in placing the classified advertising in the daily newspapers for the national selective service and unemployment insurance departments in the city of Toronto, and how are payments made?
2.	Are any agents or agencies employed for this purpose?
3.	If so, (a) how are they remunerated; (b) what is the basis of remuneration; (c) what payments have been made to each of such agencies?


Mr. MITCHELL:: As a matter of policy the employment office of national selective service at Toronto does not secure the insertion of classified advertising.
Since the office opened one or two classified advertisements only have been paid for by the office at a total cost of less than $5. These were placed direct-not through an advertising agency.



FARM LOAN BOARD

[Stage Direction]
. Mr. McCUAIG:
1.	How many loans were made in Ontario by the Canadian farm loan board in each fiscal year from March 31, 1940, to March 31, 1943?
2.	What was the total amount of loans made in the said province during each of these years?
3.	How many applications for loans in the province of Ontario were disposed of in the fiscal year ending March 31, 1943, and how were the applications not granted disposed of?
4.	How many persons were employed in the Toronto office in the fiscal year ending March 31. 1943?
5.	What was the total cost of the administration of the farm loan board in Ontario for the said fiscal year?
6.	How much was collected from the farmers for inspection fees for the said fiscal year?
Douglas Charles Abbott: 

JAPANESE NATIONALS

Humphrey Mitchell: On February 14, 1944, at page 428 of Hansard I gave a partial
answer to a question standing in the name of the hon. member for Peterborough West (Mr. Fraser) on page i of the Votes and Proceedings of the house, No. 10, February 9, 1944, in regard to Japanese nationals. I should now like to give the complete answer to this question:


Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: 1.	How many Japanese have been removed from the province of British Columbia to other provinces?
2.	To what provinces have they been removed, and how many to each province?
3.	Of those removed to the province of Ontario, how many are naturalized?
4.	How many of these are entitled to vote
in federal elections?	_
5.	Of these, how many are in each riding (federal) in Ontario?


Mr. MITCHELL:: 1.	6,480, including women and children.
2.	Alberta, 2,880; Saskatchewan, 57; Manitoba, 1,011; Ontario, 2,234; Quebec, 298.
3.	136.
4.	Such of the above as qualify under the Dominion Elections Act 1938, section 14.
5.	Number of naturalized Japanese Canadians in each federal riding in Ontario:
Algoma West	 3
Brant	 3
Broadview	 3
Cochrane	 5
Eglinton	 1
Elgin	 8
Kent	 6
Kingston City ..,	   2
Lambton-Kent	 1
Lanark	 1
Lincoln	 11
Middlesex East	 6
Peel	  5
Port Arthur	 12
Rosedale	 6
St, Paul	 27
Spadina	 14
Trinity	 11
Waterloo South	 1
Welland	 3
Wentworth	 13
York East	 2
York North	 1
York South	 3
Total	 148
(Of the 148 naturalized Japanese Canadians as listed above, 136 were evacuated from the protected areas of British Columbia as mentioned in reply to section 3 of this question.)

Questions as Orders jor Returns



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: Under the North American regional broadcasting agreements of 1941, known as the Havana agreements: 1. How many class 1A, IB, II, III, IV channels were allotted to Canada?
2.	What is the frequency of each?
3.	What is the minimum and maximum power of each channel?
4.	How many of them are now occupied?
5.	What stations occupy them?
6.	What power are they using?
7.	What channels are exempted from the use of minimum power?
8.	What stations since 1939 have applied for an increase of power, and what power was applied for, and what power increase was granted?
9.	Has application been made since 1939 for the use of unoccupied channels?
10.	If so, what power was applied for?
11.	What is the minimum power of the unoccupied channels?
12.	What stations have applied for permits to experiment or otherwise in frequency modulation, television, facsimile?
13.	Have any permits been granted?


MOBILIZATION ACT-OCCUPATIONAL CLASSIFICATIONS
Mr. POULIOT:: How many men from each province were previously engaged in any one of the following industries before joining the army as G.S. soldiers or N.R.M.A. soldiers, (a) farming; (b) fishing; (c) lumbering; (d) mining; (e) shipbuilding; (f) aircraft production; (g) ammunition and gun production; (h) arsenals and small arms ammunition production; (i) automotive and tank production; (j) chemicals and explosives production; (k) gauge and cutting tool production; (1) petroleum refineries; (m) railways and telegraph lines; (n) construction and repair of locomotives and railway cars and maintenance of the right of way of the railways; (o) other transportation systems (air, tramways and trucks); (p) power companies (excluding tramway conductors); (q) dominion public service; (r) merchant marine; (s) the pulp and paper industry; (t) the textile industry (including the manufacture of military equipment); (u) the steel industry; _ (v) the rubber industry; (w) the leather industry;
(x)	the operation and repair of telephone lines;
(y)	the manufacture of alcohol for war purposes; (z) newspapers and periodicals?


BRITISH COLUMBIA FRUITS AND VEGETABLES- FERTILIZER
Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: 1.	Of the production of, (a) strawberries; (b) raspberries; (c) canning corn; (d) canning beans; (e) canning peas, in British Columbia in 1943, what percentage was produced west of the Cascades?
2.	What is the estimated crop of the above-mentioned products for the current year in this area?
3.	What is the rate of subsidy to be paid this year on fertilizer, (a) east of the Cascades in British Columbia; (b) west of the Cascades?


SELECTIVE SERVICE-LINOTYPE OPERATORS
Mr. ROSS (Souris):: 1.	How many applications have been made to national selective service by linotype operators for positions from July 1, 1943, to February 1, 1944, by provinces?
2.	How many applications have been made to national selective service by publishers for linotype operators from July 1, 1943, to February 1, 1944, by provinces?
3.	How many linotype operators have been placed by national selective service in the province of Manitoba from July 1, 1943, to February 1, 1944?
4.	Who have they been placed with?


PENITENTIARIES-BORSTAL SYSTEM
Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	What has been done to install Borstal system in Canada's prisons since the report of the prison commission was received?
2.	How many of the ages of 15, 16, 17, 18 and 19 are now confined in each federal prison, and where ?
3.	What recommendations of the said royal commission's report aforesaid have already been adopted?



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gordon Graydon: I should like to ask the Prime Minister if he could indicate to the house when he expects to be in a position to make a statement concerning the Easter recess.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My hon. friend was kind enough to inform me that he intended to ask this question to-day, and I will seek to oblige him and the house by giving an answer immediately. The government proposes to have an adjournment of a fortnight at Easter. The house will adjourn, if it gives its consent, on the evening of Friday, March 31, and will reassemble on Monday, April 17. It will be noticed that by this arrangement no less than six of the days of the recess will be either Saturdays or Sundays.



ALUMINUM


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gordon Graydon: I wish to ask the Minister of Munitions and Supply a question, notice of which I have given him already. I understand
Wheat

he announced through the press on Tuesday last that a reduction in the price of aluminum sold by the Aluminum Company of Canada had been effected by agreement between the company and the government. If this agreement has been reduced to writing, will the minister table it in the house? If the agreement has not been reduced to writing, will the minister indicate to the house the principal terms thereof, and particularly what price reduction has been agreed upon?


Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Munitions and Supply):: I received notice of this question just as I was coming into the house. The fact of the matter is that the reduction was a voluntary reduction by the company, of which I was informed by letter. I shall be glad to table the letter on another occasion.


Gordon Graydon: Will it give the price?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.



MEDICAL SERVICES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. II. A. BRUCE (Parkdale): May I direct a question to the Minister of National Defence, as to whether the department has made plans for the supply of physicians in the rural sections of the dominion? If so, what are these plans, and are they of a temporary or permanent nature? I will let the question stand as a notice.
Thomas Vien: That is a question which should be placed on the order paper.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
James Angus MacKinnon: Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a brief statement supplementing my reply to a question asked by the hon. member for Souris (Mr. Ross) on wheat used by millers. My original reply appears on pages 1043 and 1044 of last Thursday's Hansard, and while my reply was correct so far as it *went, I omitted to mention that under order in council P.C. 6602, dated August 19, 1943, flour millers are required to refund to the commodity prices stabilization corporation, for account of the Canadian wheat board, all subsidies contributing to profits taxable at 100 per cent under the Excess Profits Tax Act.
While the exact amount, of course, cannot yet be determined, the effect of the provision I have just mentioned will be that a substantial
[Mr Graydon.]
proportion of the payments being made to mills on their domestic flour millings will be eventually returned to the government, and the government will not be required to refund to the millers after the war the twenty per cent as provided under the Excess Profits Tax Act on such moneys.



DOUKHOBORS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. K. ESLING (Kootenay West):: In view of recent demonstrations, may I ask the Minister of Labour whether he is considering or has completed the formulation of method for dealing with Doukhobors who ignore the alternative service regulations or who disobey other Canadian authorities?


Humphrey Mitchell: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Kootenay West has again raised the thorny question of the Doukhobors. I appreciate the interest he has taken in this problem. May I say to him that in a big way the Doukhobors in Saskatchewan are complying with the regulations, and most of them have appealed on grounds of being conscientious objectors and have been directed to alternate employment..


Gordon Graydon: Could the minister speak just a little louder?


Humphrey Mitchell: Well, if some hon. members would stop talking perhaps my hon. friend could hear what I am saying.


Gordon Graydon: A combination, I think.


Humphrey Mitchell: That may be true, too. In British Columbia, I am frank to admit, the situation is not as good as it is in Saskatchewan. At the moment the regulations are being tightened up and investigation is being made by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the provincial police of British Columbia.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. A. R.| ADAMSON (York West): May I address a question to the Minister of Labour? When may we expect to have the revised wartime wage control order communicated to the house?
Humphrey Mitchell: My hon. friend will know in due course, when the government decides upon it.


Mr. ADAMSON:: Is order in council P.C 9384 now in effect?

Awards jor Gallantry


Humphrey Mitchell: I think my hon. friend knows as well as I do. - Yes.


Agar Rodney Adamson: It is?


Humphrey Mitchell: I should like to inform my hon. friend that notwithstanding all the criticism, we have had no difficulty whatever with the operation of that order in council.


Gordon Graydon: That does not mean that the minister is not going to alter it, I hope?


Humphrey Mitchell: No, absolutely not. I want to make that clear.



MAPLE SYRUP


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. LIGUORI LACOMBE (Laval-Two Mountains):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Finance or his assistant. Will the producer of maple syrup or maple sugar be obliged this year to demand coupons from the consumer when he sells to him directly his products?


Thomas Vien: That question, I think, should be put on the order paper.



CANADIAN ARMY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. JEAN-FRANCOIS POULIOT (Temis-couata):	Following the precedent set last
year by my hon. and esteemed friend the member for Waterloo North (Mr. Breithaupt) when he mentioned' the decoration that had been awarded to Lieutenant-Colonel C. C. Merritt, V.C., after the Dieppe raid, it is my privilege to-day, sir, to mention again to the house the signal honour which has been bestowed on Major Paul Triquet, V.C., of Cabano, Temis-couata, P.Q. In the whole world there is a feeling of admiration for the hero, and we of the united nations take, special pride in recalling that he is the second Canadian to receive such a coveted decoration from the hands of His Majesty during this war.
Very often, in the schools, young people are told of Leonidas at Thermopylae. They should be taught modern history. If they are told about Leonidas, they should know also of Merritt and Menard at Dieppe, of Triquet at Casa Berardi in Italy, and all the heroes of our time who have been awarded decorations for their gallantry. That should be done by way of recognition of what these men have achieved, and in recognition as well of the unknown soldier.
I have two suggestions to offer. The first is that all citations giving the reasons why awards for gallantry have been granted should be sorted, and if all citations are not sent to each school, at least the citations regarding the men of each constituency should be sent to each school of that constituency in order to inform young children of what has been done by gallant Canadians during this war.
My other suggestion is a very practical one, and here again we have the example of Westminster in the matter of parliamentary grants which were awarded to Nelson, to Wellington and to all the great leaders of the navy and of the army. Moreover, we have the example set by this parlaiment, with regard to Sir Arthur Currie. In my humble view there should be a tax-free parliamentary grant to each living holder of the V.C. which would enable him to live independently.
I submit these suggestions, sir, and I take this opportunity to congratulate the family of Major Paul Triquet, V.C., on the signal honour which has been conferred upon him and which is shared by all his men.
Thomas Vien: The remarks of the hon.
member have raised a question in my mind. All hon. members of this house will probably in the future find themselves in the same position as the hon. gentleman, in that they will wish to call attention to the bravery, and the consequent decoration, of men in their respective constituencies. If the precedent that is set to-day is not followed on subsequent occasions I shall perhaps be in the position of having to differentiate between hon. members. I should like therefore to have the sense of the house in the matter. My own opinion is that the government should of itself do the proposed honours to soldiers who may be decorated for having distinguished themselves in the war, and that this should be sufficient for the house. Otherwise I shall be faced with this question throughout the session.



WAR APPROPRIATION BILL


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The house resumed from Monday, March 6, consideration in committee of a resolution to grant to His Majesty certain sums of money for the carrying out of measures consequent upon the existence of a state of war- Mr. Usley-Mr. Bradette in the chair.
REVISED KDITUttr
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War Appropriation-Naval Services

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Hon. ANGUS L. MACDONALD (Minister of National Defence for Naval Services): Mr. Chairman, for the fourth time I come to the House of Commons with a request for the moneys which the Department of Naval Services estimates as necessary to carry on its
work for the coming fiscal year, and I should like now to place on Hansard a table, or rather part of a table, that was presented to the house by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley) on February 11, when he introduced the war appropriation bill. This partial table shows the estimated amounts required by the naval service for the current fiscal year and the amounts asked for the next fiscal year.
Department of National Defence Naval Service
Comparison of 1943-1944 and 1944-1945 Estimates
Objects of expenditure	Estimates 1943-1944	Estimates 1944-1945	Increase	Decrease1. Civil salaries 	$ 6,192,054	$ 6,511,987	.$ 319,933	2. Pay and allowances	89,565,119	114,698,835	25,133,716	3. Travel, transportation and^freight..	6,978,000	9,794,479	2,816,479	4. Properties- (A) Capital expenditure 	36,579,608	17,990,462	$18,589,146(B) Repairs, operating expenses and rentals	6,267,182	6,715,891	448,709	5. Personnel supplies and services: Food, medical and dental stores, clothing and personal equipment.	22,015,072	27,846,280	5,831.208	6. Signal and wireless equipment, land line construction, etc	4,592,188	19,759,334	15,167,146	7. Ammunition 	14,245,890	23,835,200	9.589.310	8. Armament stores 	42,415,548	26,458,650	15,956,8989. Fuel cost of ships	25,257,798	27,806,604	2,548.806	10. Acquisition, construction, charter, repair and upkeep of ships	167,571,202	82,282,000	85,289,20211. Naval stores and harbour defences: Small boats, minesweeping, degaussing, anti-submarine, firefighting and training equipment.	57,651,110	34,678,967	22,972,14312. Miscellaneous stores .and services: Printing, stationery, laundry, office machinery, teletype rental, etc	6,552,959	8,873,210	2,320,251	IS. Sundries: Postage, pilotage, prize	funds and other costs not included in above items	3,261,237	2,748,101	513,136$143,320,525 $64,175,558	64,175,558$489,144,967	$410,000,000	$79,144,967
It will be observed that for the present year we estimated an expenditure of $489,000,000, in round figures. It is now certain that we shall not reach that figure. It is likely that the expenditure for the present fiscal year will be in the neighborhood of 1410,000,000, or about the same as the expenditure estimated for the next fiscal year.
At such a time as this one is tempted to !Mr. Speaker.]
look back into other years and to compare the general situation of to-day with the conditions of other times. In 1941, when I first presented the estimates of this department to the house, the general position of our arms was highly precarious. The British commonwealth stood alone, the battle of Britain etill raged, air assaults of great fierceness and magnitude had been launched against that

War Appropriation-Naval Services
island; and even as I spoke three years ago her cities, her factories, her ports, yes, her ancient monuments even were being subjected to heavy and bitter attack from the air. The battle of the Atlantic, or the campaign of the Atlantic as it should more properly be called, was s,till in a most critical and indecisive stage, and the island fortress of Britain, whose very existence depended on the successful issue of that struggle, was threatened with disaster. Only a few months before, Mr. Churchill said, in a passage remarkable, even among Churehillian utterances, for its eloquent beauty:
And now it has come to us to stand alone in the breach, and face the worst that the tyrant's might and enmity can do. Bearing ourselves humbly before God, but conscious that we serve an unfolding purpose, we are ready to defend our native land. We are fighting by ourselves alone; but we are not fighting for ourselves alone. Here, in this strong city of refuge which enshrines the title deeds of human progress and is of deep consequence to Christian civilization; here, girt about by the seas and oceans where the navy reigns; shielded from above by the prowess and devotion of our airmen-we await undismayed the impending assault.
By 1942 the forces of the British commonwealth had been joined by the great armed strength of Russia and the United States; but, on the other hand, the formidable fleets and armies of Japan had been ranged against us.
The struggle on the Atlantic assumed a more direct and sinister form for us in Canada when, in that same year, German submarines penetrated into the gulf and lower reaches of the St. Lawrence and there sank merchant ships and warships.
The year 1943 began with loudly-voiced and widely heralded threats by the new supreme commander of the German navy, Admiral Doenitz, an officer of very considerable submarine experience, who spoke confidently of new weapons and plans of attack which would disrupt our sea communications with Europe, and inflict great losses on our ships of war. But the predictions of Admiral Doenitz still stand in the realm of unfulfilled prophecy rather than in the world of solid achievement. The year that has passed marked the most successful defence ever made by our ships of war, both surface ships and air, against the attacks of submarines; and it saw the greatest number of submarine destructions ever recorded in a similar ' period. The Atlantic campaign is not yet won, but no one can deny that the tide of that campaign turned definitely in our favour during the year.
U-boat destruction. Well over two hundred enemy U-boats were destroyed in 1943, most 100-83J
of them German, hut some of them Japanese and some of them Italian. In the war of 1914 to 1918 the total number of enemy submarines destroyed was just short of two hundred. Thus in the year 1943 alone the destruction of enemy submarines was greater than in the whole period of the last great war. This destruction of U-boats is of twofold beneficial effect to us. Every U-boat destroyed takes with it either to the bottom of the sea or as prisoners on allied warships the skilled enemy captains and officers on whose training and courage so much of the success of U-boat warfare depends. It also deprives the enemy of one more weapon to be used in his war against our shipping.
I come now to a point which I think is deserving of mention. In 1942, as I have said, German U-boats ranged far afield and reached the coastal waters of Canada. There immediately arose in certain quarters of this country loud demands for the redisposition of the Canadian navy. There were those who urged that the Canadian navy should be disposed in the Cabot strait, in the strait of Belle Isle :md in the gulf of St. Lawrence, there to await submarine attacks. Under this arrangement, of course, we would have to rely on some other navy to protect those ships, our own Canadian ships and ships of allied nations, while they were carrying Canadian food and Canadian war supplies on the high seas. Nevertheless that was the arrangement that certain people in this country wished to see put into effect.
Those responsible for our naval strategy however held strongly to the view that while we should give protection to our own shores and coastal waters, and while certain ships, should be maintained in those localities for that purpose, nevertheless Canadian ships of war operating anywhere on the Atlantic were a protection not only to our shipping but to our shores as well. And so the Canadian navy went on with its assistance in the great work of convoying allied merchant ships and attacking enemy submarines wherever such attacks presented themselves.
In the year 1943 not a single German submarine made an attack in the gulf or river St. Lawrence. The reason for the immunity which we enjoyed last year is to be found. I think, in the fact that Canadian and allied warships and planes met and attacked the U-boats far out in the Atlantic, and those under-sea marauders had little opportunity of making attacks close to our coasts.
The Atlantic campaign has gone much more successfully in the past year than in previous years, but it is a mistake, a great mistake.
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War Appropriation-Naval Services
to think that it has been won. I have always held the view that no matter what may happen in any other theatre of war Germany must continue her attacks on our shipping to the end. She may be driven out of Africa or out of Sicily and yet she can continue to fight on strongly. But when it comes to pass that Germany lacks the strength or the inclination to attack our shipping, then we shall know that she is ready to throw in her hand. For she knows of a certainty how important, how vital is the line between these shores and Europe, and one of her greatest hopes for victory must lie in the breaking or disruption of that line.
The Atlantic campaign has gone well for us because of the increased strength of allied naval and air forces in that ocean and because of the effective cooperation between these forces. Shore based aircraft, carrier based aircraft, have proved to be most important factors in this struggle, not alone because of their own striking power but also because of their ability to detect and report the presence of enemy underwater craft.
Shipbuilding. I come now to the question of shipbuilding, and I shall show that the increased strength of allied naval forces'comes as a result of the magnificent efforts made by the managers and workers in the shipyards of the allied nations. Despite losses, the service navies of Great Britain, the United States and Canada are definitely and decidedly greater in strength than they were at the beginning of the war. All losses of fighting ships have been more than replaced.
In a few moments I shall come to deal with the production of warships in Canadian yards, but I may say at this moment that by far the greater number, indeed almost the entire number, of our fighting ships have been built in Canadian yards by Canadian workmen out of Canadian materials. When war broke out the shipbuilding industry in Canada could be described as virtually non-existent. A few shipyards existed on our east and west coasts and on the shores of our great lakes and on the river St. Lawrence; but they had become mainly ship repair yards, and probably there were not five thousand men in all Canada in the shipbuilding and ship repair industry. From these small beginnings the Department of Munitions and Supply has succeeded in developing a shipbuilding industry whose efforts have amazed the world. So far as ships of war are concerned, at first we had to import much of the material required, much of the steel for the hulls, the auxiliary machinery and other apparatus necessary for the equipment and operation of ships of war. [Mr. A. L. Macdonald.)
Probably it would be true to say that our first ships were not more than 50 per cent Canadian manufacture. But we have advanced far beyond that stage of. dependence upon other countries. To-day the ships of war building in Canadian yards, in their material, their machinery, their guns and other equipment, are about 95 per cent a Canadian product. These figures, I think, speak eloquently of the successful efforts of Canadian factories, Canadian management, Canadian workmen and Canadian shipyards.
But that is not all; we have done more than build ships of war for ourselves. We have built already not far from 100 ships of war for the British Navy, and we have now building in Canadian yards or on order in those yards about the same number of ships for that great navy. We have built also a few ships of war for the United States Navy.
In the realm of merchant shipping, United States, British and Canadian yards are now and for some time have been turning out merchant ships at a rate much faster than the rate at which they are being sunk, the United States of course supplying the greater share of that tonnage. There would now seem to be every justification for the statement that we can maintain this ratio against the worst the enemy can do. We can continue to produce merchant ships faster than he can sink them. Thus both offensively and defensively the story of the sea is much brighter at this time than in previous years.
Growth of navy. Now, Mr. Chairman, let me continue in historical vein for a moment longer and give the committee some figures to illustrate the growth of the Canadian navy. I have been looking at a report recently prepared by the naval staff showing the development of the Canadian navy since the beginning of the war, and it presents a story of truly remarkable expansion. The 6 combat ships we had at the beginning of the war have grown to roughly 250 fighting ships. The auxiliary vessels and patrol craft, which numbered 7 in the early days of September, 1939, now stand at more than 450. So that the number of our ships has increased more than fifty-fold1 in a little over four years. When war broke out we had not quite 1,800 men on active service in the Canadian navy. To-day Canadian naval personnel number approximately 80,000, which is a forty-fivefold increase.
In September, 1939, we had only two naval bases, one at Halifax on the east coast and the other at Esquimalt on the west. To-day those two bases have been greatly expanded and im-

War Appropriation-Naval Services
proved, and in addition eleven new bases have been developed on our eastern and western coasts and in Newfoundland.
These developments have involved not merely the construction of buildings where men can be housed and trained and fedi, but also the construction of all the other facilities necessary for a naval base, such as docks, wharves, repair shops, marine railways and the like. Since the beginning of the war we have put into operation at one of our bases a great floating dock capable of taking ships of as great a tonnage as 25,000. We have constructed three marine railways at various points capable of carrying for repairs the largest destroyer, and another similar marine railway is building. We have built three smaller marine railways that can take corvettes and minesweepers. In addition we have built and have in operation three still smaller marine railways, and four more are building, where the lighter types of craft such as Fairmile motor launches and other vessels of that general size can 'be taken in hand for repair.
At the beginning of the war, the Canadian Navy did not own a single bit of land in the great space between Halifax and Victoria. The volunteer reserve divisions, which were first instituted in 1923 during the regime of Commodore Hose as chief of naval staff, under the provisions of the Naval Service Act of 1910, were living in rented quarters, some of which were totally inadequate for the purpose. We have changed a good deal of that. Most of these divisions have now been established in buildings of their own. In some cases we have bought buildings and renovated them to suit our purposes. In other instances we constructed new buildings, where naval ratings have the advantage of living, eating and being trained in proper 'barracks. The work of improving the facilities of these volunteer reserve divisions is still going on; for we at naval service headquarters realize that without these divisions at the beginning of the war, and without the work they have done since in recruiting' men and supervising their preliminary training, it would not have been possible for us to achieve what we h.-ve achieved in the four years of war.
The committee perhaps will be more interested in later events and developments, and I propose now to give to the committee some figures to Indicate what we have succeeded in accomplishing in the last fourteen months or since January 1, 1943. In that time we have added approximately 27,000 to the personnel of the Royal Canadian Navy. At January 1, 1943, we had a total complement
of approximately 53,000. To-day we have a total complement of approximately 80,000. The personnel of the Women's Royal Canadian Naval Service has increased from about
1,000	at January 1, 1943, to 4,500 to-day. These Wrens, as they are commonly called, are serving at thirty-two different points in Canada as well as in the United States, Newfoundland and Canada. This service has in every way justified its existence; and the attitude of its members towards their work, as well as their behaviour when off duty, I think have won general and well-deserved praise.
Questions have been asked in the house as to enlistments by provinces, and if I may I should like to place upon Hansard a table showing enlistments in the naval service by provinces complete as at December 31, 1943. Perhaps I need not read the figures, if the committee will allow me to place them on Hansard. About forty per cent of our men are serving at sea at the present time; a large number of those on shore have had sea service. Others ashore are undergoing training or carrying on administrative, instructional or professional duties.
Mr. MacNICOL:: I was thinking that perhaps we might get through with the minister's estimates to-day, but we cannot do that if we do not have the number of enlistments in the different provinces.
Mr. MACDONALD (Kingston City); The following are the enlistments from September 1, 1939, to December 31, 1943:
	Officers	Ratings
Prince Edward Island..	53	1,210Nova Scotia 	592	5,663New Brunswick	140	2,103Quebec 	1,231	9,268Ontario	2,044	29,958Manitoba	262	5,979Saskatchewan	168	4,965Alberta 	196	5,778British Columbia	
Other sources, including U.S.A. and Newfound-	1,068	8,672land	192	323
Training. Next comes the question of training. One of the great problems in a navy which has grown as quickly as ours is that of training. Many thousands of young men have been taken into the service since the beginning of the war and many of them had no knowledge whatever of ships or of the equipment which makes a warship effective. It is not enough that a man in the navy be a good sailor in the old sense. Warfare to-day in the air, on land and at sea involves the operation of technical gear, and in order to conduct this warfare successfully great attention must be paid to training.

War Appropriation-Naval Services
In general, naval training is divided into two main categories. The first is the basic or new entry training which is given to the new [DOT]recruits, and the second is the advanced or technical training which is provided for men who have had some experience at sea in ships. The initial stages of the new entry training take place at the reserve divisions throughout the country and those stages are completed at H.M.C.S. Cornwallis at Deep Brook, Nova Scotia.
At the beginning of last year the service was deficient in facilities for advanced technical training. I have said already that as of January 1, 1943, there were approximately 53,000 personnel in the Royal Canadian Navy. There was bound to be a great backlog of men with some sea time who had not had the opportunity of qualifying for promotion to higher rank. The opening of the training establishment H.M.C.S. Cornwallis -has solved, or at any rate has helped1 to solve, this serious problem. Despite the difficulties of securing equipment and despite all the other problems incidental to the opening of so large an establishment, over 16,000 ratings have been given courses of one kind and another at H.M.C.S. Cornwallis in less than a year. I cannot emphasize too strongly what this institution has meant in the way of improving the fighting efficiency of our ships.
Some idea of the value of this establishment can be gained when I say that the number of men who have been trained for higher duties of a technical nature at this establishment in less than nine months in 1943 was almost as great as the total number trained from the beginning of the war until the opening of this establishment.
The removal from Halifax of this training establishment where the great bulk of the naval training ashore, both technical and new entry, is conducted, has had many advantages. The morale of the men has been improved by the provision of better training facilities with ample time under naval discipline. The removal of
6,500	men from Halifax to Deep Brook has allowed for the further expansion of repair facilities for ships at Halifax. The proximity of Deep Brook to Halifax permits of a free and fast flow of men to and from ships.
If one thousand men are brought from ships to Cornwallis or from Cornwallis to ships, in order that they may take courses or report back to their ships after completing courses, the question of distance becomes very important and the need of having Cornwallis within easy reach of our main naval base is readily apparent.
(Mr. A. L. Macdonald.]
Many of the men who joined the navy have learned trades which I hope they can put to use when they return to civilian life. In addition to' those trained in the naval establishments, of whom there are a very large number, I may tell the committee that approximately 4,400 ratings have been trained in civilian schools since the outbreak of the war in such work as plumbing, electrical work, radio artificer work, internal combustion engine work, welding, copper-smithing, boiler making, machine shop work and the like. In addition more than 1,000 are at present undergoing such training in civilian schools at Halifax, Fredericton, Kingston, Toronto, Hamilton, Galt, Windsor, Calgary and Edmonton.
University Naval Training College. Now a word about the university naval training divisions. Fifteen Canadian universities are participating in the university naval training scheme. The initial enrolments took place in the spring of 1943 and there have been over
1,500	entries. Of those entries 150 have been taken on active service as ratings, thirty-eight have been discharged and there remain in the universities a total of some 1,200 men. More than 250 of these will go on active service at the end of the present school term. The training of the university students is conducted during the academic year at the universities. In the summer time the trainees all put in a special course of two weeks, either at H.M.C.S. Cornv)allis on the east coast or at Esquimalt in British Columbia.
Naval College. The Royal Canadian Naval College was opened at Royal Roads, British Columbia, on October 21, 1942. In the first term 100 students were enrolled, fifty for a one-year course and fifty for a two-year course. In the spring of 1943 forty-three midshipmen were graduated. Of this number, 27 have been selected for permanent membership in the Royal Canadian Navy and they are now serving as midshipmen in large ships of the Royal Navy., The other 16 of the graduating class joined the Royal Canadian Naval Volunteer Reserve and are serving at sea as midshipmen on Canadian ships. All R.C.N.V.R. graduates who have served six months at sea and who have reached the age of nineteen years with satisfactory service will be promoted to the rank of sub-lieutenant, R.C.N.V.R. Midshipmen who are members of the permanent force must serve eighteen months as midshipmen before they can qualify as sub-lieutenants in the permanent force. It is a pleasure to tell the committee that I have heard nothing but favourable comment on the work of this college. Its staff has been carefully

War Appropriation-Naval Services
selected. Its scholastic standard is high, and its discipline and training are in themselves valuable factors in a boy's education.
Teaching of English. In the fall of 1943, the school for instruction of French-speaking Canadians in English was transferred from H.M.CJ3. Montcalm in Quebec, to H.M.C.S. Prevost, in London, Canada. Classroom space has been provided in the public library at London. The course lasts some three months and most of the work done there is in English. Trainees are billeted in homes in the city of London. To date there has been nothing but the most favourable of reports on the work done at'the school and on the kindness shown by the citizens of that city.
Entry of officers.-We have made some changes as to the entry of officers. All new officers in the Executive (combatant) branch must enter the service as ordinary seamen and serve on the lower deck. If any of these men aspire to a commission they may request of their commanding officer to be so considered. Upon his recommendation and upon passing a selection board they then qualify for a short selection course at H.M.C.S. Cornwallis which culminates in an appearance before the permanent promotion board. Success means a commission as probationary sub-lieutenant, and in due course, entry to King's college for the prescribed four months officers' training course there.
When an officer has passed out of King's, however, he has not finished his training by any means. His real diploma as an officer is, in fact, his watehkeeping certificate. This he can only acquire after approximately six months' service at sea. Even then officers must constantly requalify and take additional courses, both in our own schools and in the training schools of the Royal Navy. New methods of sea w-arfare, new equipment, are constantly being developed and our seagoing officers must keep up with these ever-changing situations devised either by the ingenuity of our own scientists or by the resourcefulness of a ruthless enemy.
Operations. As I pointed out last year our men are serving on every sea of the world, in the Atlantic, in the Pacific, in the Mediterranean, in the Indian ocean, in the cold of Arctic waters, and in the balmier seas of the south.
Last year seventeen Ganadian corvettes took part in the Mediterranean campaign when North Africa was wrested from the enemy. Sea power played a large part in this great achievement and Canadian corvettes definitely destroyed three submarines in the Mediterranean. In the early part of last year six of our corvettes and a flotilla of motor launches
saw duty in the Caribbean area. Canadian ships of war participated in the Aleutian Islands campaign of last year, and I am glad to be able to say that their work was made the subject of a laudatory letter from the senior United States naval officer who was in charge of the operation.
' In July, when Sicily was invaded, four Canadian flotillas of landing craft took part in the operation.
In September, when the invasion of the mainland of Italy began, the same four Canadian flotillas were on duty in the straits of Messina, and I am proud to report that the services which they performed were such as to win the praise of senior British naval officers.
As was announced in September, 1943, a minesweeping operation of considerable magnitude was conducted off the port of Halifax. The mines almost undoubtedly were laid by an enemy submarine which, instead of attacking ships directly, chose to lay mines in the path of convoys. A considerable number of enemy mines were detected in the area and our minesweepers cleared them up rapidly, and made safe the ocean exit from that great harbour. I should like to repeat now what I said at the time by way of appreciation of and praise for the men of the Canadian navy, who, day in and day out, sweep certain portions of the convoy channel for mines. The work is tedious, but nevertheless it is important and necessary. No lives were lost from these mines, though one ship, a convoy straggler which strayed from the channel which had been swept, struck a mine and was destroyed.
I may mention for the information of the committee that our Tribal destroyers, which are the newest and fastest destroyers in the world, have seen service with convoys to north Russia. As is appreciated, because of the threat held out to these convoys by enemy warships based in Norwegian waters, and because of the great vulnerability of that sea route to intensive bombing from northern European bases, a heavier type of protection must be provided there than is normally required on the north Atlantic. Canadian Tribals were with the attacked convoys off Bear island when the Schamhorst was torpedoed' on December 26, 1943.
During the summer and early fall, the Tribal destroyer H.M.C.S. Athabaskan was engaged in offensive operational work in the bay of Biscay. It is worthy of record to say that she was the first ship to be attacked by the newly-developed German aerial bomb. She sustained considerable damage in that action. I should add that her commanding officer, Captain

War Appropriation-Naval Services
G.	R. Miles, R.C.N., succeeded in trying and hazardous conditions in bringing his crippled ship safely to port. This was the second time Captain Miles performed such a feat. In December of 1940 he was in command of
H.	M.C.S. Saguenay when she was torpedoed in the north Atlantic, and after many hours on her bridge, eventually he made her fast alongside at a British' port, where she was repaired, and went to sea again to continue her work in the Atlantic campaign against the submarine.
Convoys. Our main work during the year consisted, as in the past, of escorting merchant ships in the north Atlantic.
A few moments ago I pointed out that the destruction of enemy submarines had been very great during the year. That is one way of estimating the success of our battle against U-boats. I believe that the success of that battle was one of the outstanding features of the whole war during the year, but, as I pointed out earlier, it must not be supposed that the battle is over. Germany still has a great many U-boats and there is no reason whatever to think that she will not use them to the utmost in attacks against allied shipping.
The destruction of U-boats is one way of measuring the success of our convoy efforts. Another way is to consider the number of merchant ships that get safely through. Speaking in the British House of Commons on Tuesday of this week, the Hon. Mr. Alexander, First Lord of the Admiralty, pointed out that in 1941, one ship was lost out of every 181 that sailed; in 1942, one out of every 233, while in 1943 only one out of every 344 was lost. In other words, the proportion of ships getting through safely in 1943 was nearly twice as great as in 1941.	\
Mr. Alexander was giving here figures for all allied ships. He includes the Atlantic, the Pacific, the Mediterranean route, the Russian route, and every other ocean lane on which allied ships operate. The Canadian navy has operated in many waters, but its special area is the north Atlantic over which must pass the supplies produced in Canada and the United States, which must be safely transported to the shores of the British isles.
On this route we have at times supplied 48 per cent of the convoy escort, and during the past two years I think it can be safely said that we have never done less than 40 per cent of the convoy escort work. From the beginning of the war up to the end of 1943 the Canadian navy has escorted, or assisted in escorting, more than 18,000 ships from North America to Europe, and about 114

million dead-weight tons of shipping has safely made this perilous crossing.
One hundred and fourteen million tons of food, of war supplies of all kinds so vital to the efforts of our allies in the European theatre of war have reached their destination and more than 40 per cent of the credit must go to the navy of Canada, which began the war with only six ships capable of undertaking escort work. Is there in the history of all warfare a record more heroic and more inspiring? Young Canadians from our eastern and western ocean gateways, young Canadians from the shores of the St. Lawrence and the great lakes, and, what is even more remarkable, Canadians from the three prairie provinces, many of whom never saw the sea until after the outbreak of war-all have banded together to write one of the most romantic and remarkable stories in the history of naval warfare.
In addition to the ships convoyed from American shores to Europe, our navy has also assisted in the convoying of some 10,000 ships from United Kingdom ports to ports on this continent.
Furthermore, some 20,000 ships have sailed in Canadian coastal convoys so-called, that is to say, from some point on the North American continent to another point in the same area, and almost the entire task of convoy protection in this area has fallen upon the ships and men of the Canadian navy.
If you add all these figures together you will find that nearly 50,000 ships in one way or another have come under the protection of the Canadian navy.
It is in the north Atlantic that the fiercest efforts of German submarines are put forth. There lies the lifeline which in this war, as in the last, the enemy must endeavour to snap. That line has been subjected to many strains and stresses, but it still holds. The supplies are still going through, and not only the supplies, but the ships carrying men, Canadians and Americans, men of all services, are plying the north Atlantic route.
I cannot go into all the details of losses in transatlantic convoys since the beginning of the war, but I can say that the last six months of 1943 showed a remarkable improvement over any previous similar period since the outbreak of war. But as Mr. Alexander pointed out on Tuesday, the German submarine strength is still as great as it was at the beginning of 1943, and we have no assurance whatever that that strength will not again be unleashed against transatlantic shipping. Nor is there any guarantee that we shall not yet have to face attacks on shipping in our own coastal zones.

War Appropriation-Naval Services
Losses. You cannot undertake operations of the magnitude which I have briefly described' without suffering some losses. Since the 1st of January, 1943, we have lost four ships of war. The corvettes Louisburg and Weyburn were lost in the North African operations. The minesweeper Chedabucto was lost as the result of a collision with a merchant ship, and the destroyer St. Croix was lost as the result of enemy action in the autumn of last year. The St. Croix was one of the seven destroyers acquired by us from the United States in 1940, and I should like to say now that all these seven ships have been of the greatest value and benefit to us. The St. Croix was hit by enemy torpedoes, and sank, carrying with her more than half of her crew. The rest of the crew succeeded in getting aboard a British frigate, but, unfortunately, on the following night the frigate herself was torpedoed and all the survivors of the St. Croix, with one exception, went to their death. The sinking of the St. Croix marked the heaviest single loss that the Canadian navy has yet received.
Destruction of submarines. We have lost four ships, but we have had revenge. The Canadian Navy since the 1st of January, 1943, has had a hand in the definite and certain destruction of eight submarines, and in the probable or possible sinking or damaging of seven other submarines.
Of the eight submarines definitely destroyed four were sent to the bottom of the sea by Canadian ships alone. Three were destroyed by Canadian ships cooperating with British ships; and one by a Canadian ship working with a Royal Canadian Air Force plane and a British ship-of-war.
Additions to ship strength. In the past fourteen months we have added some seventy fighting ships to our navy, destroyers, frigates, corvettes, minesweepers and Fairmile motor launches. We have added two more Tribal destroyers, namely the Huron and Haida to our fleet. We have also acquired eight other destroyers from the British admiralty.
Casualties. Our casualties since the beginning of the war in dead, wounded, missing and prisoners now stand at more than 1,300. I know that the house will join with me in paying tribute to those naval officers and ratings who have died in their country's service; and in tendering deepest sympathy to their relatives and friends. Their lives have been a source of inspiration. Their deaths have been models of gallantry and courage.
Decorations. The heroism and devotion of our officers and ratings has been recognized no fewer than 513 times by decorations and mentions in dispatches. Within a day or two, I
shall place on Hansard a statement showing the names and addresses of all those who have been thus honoured.
Navy League and Sea Cadets. The members of the committee have always been interested in the sea cadet movement. Personally,
I have always tried to encourage the great work which is being done in this respect by the Navy League of Canada, and I am only too happy tb repeat the tribute which I have on past occasions paid to that organization for their work not only in connection with sea cadets, but also in connection with hostels for merchant seamen, and for other welfare work undertaken by them on behalf of those people who are engaged in the war at sea.
On the 31st of December, 1943, there were eighty-six Canadian sea cadet corps and over 13,700 cadets enrolled. When the naval service assumed some of the responsibility for the training of sea cadets in 1941, there were some twenty-three corps in Canada with an enrolment of 2,300 cadets. Just now six new corps are being organized, and it is expected that very soon the authorized complement of
15,000	sea cadets will be reached.
More than 5,000 former sea cadets are now in the naval service. Accurate figures for enlistments have been kept for the past eight months ,and they indicate that while all the forces are attracting members of the sea cadet corps, the navy seems to be the favoured service for these boys.
The figures for enlistments in the past eight months are: Navy, 5S1; army, SO; air force, 66; merchant navy, 63.
Apart altogether from the value which this work has for the naval service, most satisfactory *reports have been received to the effect that the work of the sea cadets corps-and I am sure this is true of the air cadet corps and the army cadets as well-has had a very considerable influence in reducing the number of cases of juvenile delinquency in the centres where cadet work is carried out.
There are over 750 men serving as sea cadet officers in the various corps. They are public spirited citizens who give freely of their time and who have made a great contribution to the success of the sea cadet movement. They have helped greatly to inculcate high ideals of citizenship in these young boys.
In the summer of 1943 the naval service sponsored thirteen sea cadet training camps and during the summer 6.SOO sea cadets spent two weeks at camp. The navy provided officers, doctors, instructors, cooks and other personnel to operate the camps and the boys

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had the advantage of some naval training, and the pleasure of swimming, of handling boats and of camp life generally. We hope that in the summer of 1944 some 9,500 sea ,cadets will be able to enjoy the benefit of these camps..
Future prospects. With regard to the future, I may tell the committee that in the coming fiscal year we shall add appreciably to our fleet. This year we hope to acquire from the admiralty two fine modern cruisers and we propose to man two aircraft carriers with naval crews. The acquisition of these larger ships is, I think, desirable from every point of view. They will add to the strength and effectiveness of the Canadian- navy and will give a number of our officers and ratings experience in handling larger ships.
Up to now our navy has been what is commonly called a small-ship navy. Many officers and some ratings have served with the Royal Navy in British ships of the iarger types, but now they will have the opportunity of manning Canadian ships of the larger class.
With regard to the aircraft carriers, I may say that the plan is that the Canadian navy will operate the ships with its own officers and ratings, but the planes and the men to fly them will be provided by the Royal Navy. Besides these larger vessels, cruisers and carriers, we hope to add about 100 other fighting ships as well as a considerable number of auxiliary craft to the strength of the Canadian navy.
In the next year we plan to take in personnel to the number of about 12,000, or at the rate of approximately 1.000 a month.
Post-war. Hitherto, Mr. Chairman, I have talked of the war and its progress. I should like now to say a word about post-war matters.
I listened to the hon. member for Danforth (Mr. Harris) last week when he spoke during the discussion of the estimates of the department for air, and I noted his plea, which was in effect that we should get on with the war and spend less time in talk about post-war problems. I have some sympathy, a good deal of sympathy with that view. The supreme task now before this government, and this house and this country is the winning of the war. All other considerations must take second- place to that great consideration, and I am proud to be able to say that, so far as I can gather, that is the view taken by the personnel of the Canadian navy. They are keen, of course, to get. the war against Germany over, and then they feel that they have a few matters to attend to in the Pacific.
They realize that the war is no-t yet won.
IMr. A. L. Macdonald.1
They know that in Europe the enemy is very strong on land, and still strong and dangerous in the air and on the sea. They know that in the Pacific there are long distances to traverse and heavy fighting to be successfully undertaken before the Japanese menace is completely and finally destroyed.
Yet I am unable to agree that we should give no thought now to the welfare of our service men. I do not believe that our successful prosecution of the war will be interfered with by any attention that we might here give to such a matter. Rather do I think that our prosecution of the war will be helped, for this reason; and we all agree that the service man must be well fed and clothed and paid, and must be given periods of leave and recreation, that he must feel that those who are dependent on him shall not suffer want or privation while he is away.
We believe in these things, because they are right and just in themselves and because the service man will be a better service man for our doing them. In a word, we believe in maintaining morale.	.
I am sure that the morale of the service man is improved when he sees the people at home taking an interest in his welfare, and therefore I feel that all civilian groups in this country who try to do something for the service man are discharging a patriotic task.
I believe, for example, that one of the wisest steps we ever took in the naval service was taken when we accepted the suggestion of Captain Brand, one of our own officers, to name corvettes after Canadian cities and towns. That practice has created a link between city or town and the ship, which is helpful to both. Every time that comforts-clothing or cigarettes, books, radios or whatever you will-go from the city to the ship, it proves to the ship's company that the people back home are interested in them, and they are better sailors because of that feeling.
It is inevitable that some service men should be thinking of the post-war world. Should not we here be equally concerned? Should we not try to ensure, so far as we can ensure, that life in this country will be a little better than it was before?	%
I hope that I shall not be misunderstood. I hope I shall not be counted among those who felt that this country before the war was not worth fighting for, that nearly every other land was fairer than this, that other types or systems of government were far superior to ours. No. This country, from the time our fathers first came to it, has been worth fighting for, and, if need be, dying for; and 60,000

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Canadians in the last war, besides many more thousands in this, have proved with their lives the validity of that statement.
Nor do I think for a moment that our service men want fantastic promises and impossible assurances that after the war they will enter upon a new and entirely different sort of life where the state will pour out money in unending and unstinted flow from a magic horn of plenty. What they want most, I suspect, is to take up again the broken skein of their peace-time lives, to return to the families and friends from whom they have been separated, to enjoy once more the privileges and the pleasures and to assume again their share of the responsibilities of Canadian life. What they want is an opportunity to make a decent living at work in this land, at work on the farm, in the factory, in the office, as their fancies and their abilities may dictate. Let us try to give them that opportunity. Let us make to ourselves and to them one pledge, in the words of Lincoln: "To care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan". Let us do what is right and reasonable for them in the matter of demobilization grants, war service gratuities and pensions. Let us honestly try to help those who need help to reestablish themselves in civil life.
I have no fear that these service men will come back here as wild-eyed revolutionaries. They will have sacrificed much for Canada. They are not likely to tear down the edifice which they risked their lives to defend. Rather, I am certain, will they come back ready to play in peace a role comparable to that which they played in war, defenders and protectors of Canada.
In the naval service, as in the other two services, we have set up a directorate to give study to the problems of demobilization, rehabilitation and kindred matters. We have placed at the head of that directorate a volunteer reserve officer; for this problem is one that is of chief concern to the reserve branches rather than to the permanent forces. He was in the naval reserve before the war and in this war he has had extensive and distinguished sea service. He, and those associated with him, will work with officers from the other services and with officials of other departments such as the Department of Pensions and National Health, and with all the other departments that are interested in the matter.
I believe, Mr. Chairman, that the discussion that has already taken place in this committee on this problem has been most helpful,
and I hope that members of the committee will continue to give the same earnest and helpful attention that they have already shown. I now leave the estimates of the Department of National Defence for Naval Services to what I know will be the careful, and what I hope will be the kindly, consideration of this committee.


Mr. FACTOR:: I desire to ask the Minister he has unfolded. I often wonder whether the members of the committee, and particularly the Canadian people, appreciate the glorious contribution that the navy has made in this war and the sacrifices that both officers and for Naval Services one question. Before I do so, perhaps the committee would permit me to express a word of appreciation and congratulation to the minister for the story which ratings have sustained in doing their bit in naval warfare.
The question I desire to ask is rather mundane, compared with the romantic chapter that the minister has given to the committee. Some time ago the city of Toronto donated to the federal government a piece of land on the waterfront to the east of the exhibition grounds for the purpose of constructing naval barracks. I need not emphasize to the minister the desirability and the necessity of the construction of those barracks for Toronto and district. As a matter of fact, I received a letter from the mayor of Toronto inquiring about this. Perhaps the minister might look upon this as a convenient time to tell the committee what he proposes to do with reference to the construction of the barracks.


Mr. MACDONALD (Kingston City):: I may say to the hon. member for Spadina that I have had some communication with the mayor of Toronto in the matter. A question was raised on this very point in the house last week by the hon. member for Broadview. In answer to the hon. member for Spadina. who has had a letter from the mayor of Toronto, I may say that it is the intention of the Department of National Defence for Naval Services to construct the new barracks in Toronto on the land donated by that city. The plans for the barracks are now in course of preparation and I hope that the work may be undertaken very shortly.


Mr. STIRLING:: The committee has listened to the unfolding of a story as told by the Minister of National Defence for Naval Services which is based on the wonderful accomplishments of the Canadian people. In the figures which he gave on enlistments he has drawn attention to the most notable point in connection with naval expansion. It has also been drawn to the attention of the world by writers

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from the United States that this far-flung and largely agricultural country of Canada has been responsible for an expansion in naval affairs which the world has certainly never seen before. I remember meeting Commodore Hose in 1934. He was then retiring from the position of chief of the naval staff. He had just returned from a trip across Canada, the purpose of which was to inspect establishments of the naval volunteer reserve. He was most gratified to find wherever he went that those establishments were up to strength, and, peace years though they were, that the training was being carried on which was later to have such notable effect. In that expansion Commodore Hose had a particular part to play, because it was while he was chief of the naval staff that the naval staff produced those plans which have been so efficient in the expansion which the minister was able to describe to-day.
When I left the Department of National Defence the three branches of the naval services included 2,100 officers and ratings, of which but 900 were in the permanent service. By 1939, the smoke having arisen over the European horizon and it having become more and more evident that war was in the offing, that figure, judged by recent departmental papers, had risen to 3,600, and now the minister is able to speak of 80,000. This is a marvellous accomplishment for a country of the size, shape and population of Canada.
But it must not be thought that excellencies alone depend on . numerical expansion. That very expansion, and the rapidity of it, have carried with them verv grave problems of training and the like which had to be solved by. the naval staff, and it is possible that in the further discussion of his estimates the minister will take the committee a little more into his confidence with regard to that work of training. As the ships were required, as the ships were built, ships' complements were necessary. There had to be not only officers commanding; there had to be officers under those officers. In the very early days of new shipbuilding the difficulty was to find officers competent to take on the more specialized duties, for where could the naval staff look for them? They could not look, except in small degree, to the permanent force, which had to take care of the fighting qualities and administrative qualities, as well as to furnish the experience necessary to train men, which experience could be gained only through service. The consequence was that the minister had to turn to the young men who had been taken into the service through the naval volunteer reserve. Courses had to be set up as rapidly as possible and conducted in such
[Mr. Stirling.}
a way that in the shortest possible time the young officers required for these new ships would be forthcoming. But such advances were taking place in the technical end of the naval service that it was necessary to send a certain number of those young specialists to take the courses conducted on the other side of the Atlantic, to take advantage once more of the assistance of the Royal Navy. All through this picture we must remember that we have always had the very great benefit of the assistance of the admiralty and of the Royal Navy.
The Canadian public read with very great interest the references which are continually made in the press to the warlike accomplishments of the Royal Canadian Navy, and well may they do so. I should like also, however, to pay tribute to those others whose services are just as important as those on the fighting ships; for instance, to the wireless operators on our coasts, working away with instruments so novel and so secret that we know nothing about them, but from which information is derived that is absolutely essential in both defensive and offensive work. Then there are those in the convoys. We hear about it when a convoy escort vessel accomplishes some magnificent deed; alas, we hear also when one is lost. From time to time we are told of safe journeys, but I think we should remember that our men are serving day and night, doing valiant service in extreme danger, and that as a result of all this silent work of which we hear so little the valuable tonnage required by the allied nations is safely reaching its destination. Speaking of the convoy escort vessels it is of particular interest, I think-and those who have read the story of the voyage of the Prince oj Wales when she carried the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom to Placenta bay will know to what I refer-that after the Prince of Wales had to cast off her torpedo coverage because of terrible weather, and after she had spent some twenty-four hours with no coverage at all, in the fog of the western Atlantic she was met by a Canadian destroyer which escorted her to Placenta bay. Again, four or five days later, when she left on her return voyage, during the first part of that voyage she was under the protection of Canadian destroyers.
Speaking of the Prince oj Wales, I should like to draw to the committee's attention a remarkable and human incident. On board that ship was a Canadian midshipman, born in Penticton, at the southern end of the Okanagan valley in the riding which I represent. He remained on the Prince of Wales until she was sunk by the Japanese off Singa-

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pore, and he was rescued. Then he went aboard the cruiser Exeter-, subsequently she was sunk, and he was not saved. That occurred on March 13,	1942. No news whatever
reached the parents until a day or two after the New Year, when they received a letter from one who described himself as a member of a small committee that had been endeavouring to ascertain what actually had happened to the Exeter ship's company; and he regretted to say that although they had been able to account for all but six of that company, this lad was one of the six unaccounted for. On January 13 of this year, however, one year and ten months after the Exeter was sunk, the parents received official information that Midshipman Leir had been discovered in a prison camp in Java. This may help to keep alive the hope there must be in the hearts of so many whose loved ones have been reported missing.
As the minister further unfolds his story I hope he will give us more information in regard to what is being done concerning rehabilitation. He has briefly referred to the fact that the matter is under consideration. I wonder how far he can go ini describing to us just what is being done. It is very difficult, yes, impossible, to peer into the future and see with any accuracy what will have to be done; so many factors are still a matter of surmise. I do not suppose, for instance, that the minister can say in so many words even what may be his vision of the Canadian navy after the war. I do not suppose he is able to say how rapidly we shall have to concern ourselves with rehabilitation; but I wonder whether a survey has been conducted among those at present in the navy, to give such information as the number who would like to retire from the service at the end of the war, for example, or whether after the European conflict has subsided the minister foresees the removal of the Royal Canadian Navy to Pacific waters and, as a consequence, the necessity of keeping in commission as many ships as we have in commission to-day.
No doubt if that survey is being conducted the sailors are being asked what they want to do. In that way the minister will be able to supply himself with categorical information which will at least enable him to form his plans for training. In that connection I would ask him whether it is the intention of his department to set up and carry on training classes for sailors only, or whether he intends to lean on the training arrangements conducted under the Department of Pensions and National Health. I should like him to go as far as he can in his answers, because it will be of great assistance to the many people
throughout Canada, who, in groups and as individuals, are turning their attention more and more to problems of reconstruction and rehabilitation. If I understand the position of naval entry aright, with the exception of those candidates, I believe fifty in number, who because of their educational position are able to attain entry into Royal Roads, there is no direct entry into the Royal Canadian Navy.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: You mean for officers?


Grote Stirling: I mean for officers and
men. As I understand1 it, all entry now occurs through the naval volunteer reserve. I am not speaking of those who, because of their experience and service, are able to enter the Royal Canadian Naval Reserve, those who have had merchant seaman experience; my understanding is that all entry into the Royal Canadian Navy is via the naval volunteer reserve.
I notice that recruiting advertisements are again appearing in the papers for ordinary seamen, communication ratings and stokers.
Is there a restriction upon recruiting to-day to those listings, or, for instance, may a boy seaman enter? It is evident that the naval volunteer reserve has been successful not only numerically but also by being used solely for entry into the navy. I return once more to the excellent plans which were laid twenty years ago. They have stood the test of time. When the necessity arose at the actual outbreak of war they were capable of that elasticity and expansion which was so necessary. This service has accomplished exactly the need in view.
I do not wish to detain the committee further at this time,.but I trust we shall soon be able to enter upon a discussion of the items as they appear in the schedule.


Mr. MAYHEW:: Mr. Chairman, I am
pleased to follow the hon. member for Yale ' (Mr. Stirling) who has paid the Royal Canadian Navy such justifiable and high praise. What I have to say this afternoon will be complimentary to the service and I only wish I could say it as nicely as the last speaker.
It would be difficult for me to keep my seat while naval affairs were being discussed because I represent the constituency of Victoria, which includes Esquimalt, the naval base on the Pacific ocean for the Canadian navy.
Esquimalt has had a long and enviable record as far as naval affairs are concerned. Its record in length of years is not as long as that of Quebec or Halifax, but it does go back for a considerable time. It was first used as a naval base by a captain of the Spanish

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navy who sailed1 into the port of Esquimalt in 1790. It was used for the first time by the British navy in 1858, but in 1855 Rear Admiral Bruce, then engaged in the Crimean war, sent a message to Sir James Douglas, then governor of Vancouver island, asking him to prepare buildings at Esquimalt for hospital purposes. Two years later it was occupied by him. Sir James Douglas made such a splendid job of erecting these buildings that two are still in existence.
The harbour of Esquimalt, as is indicated by its name, an Indian name meaning shoaling or gradually sloping shores, provides a safe harbour of some size. It looks out- upon the strait of Juan de Fuca and to the Olympic mountains, some twenty miles away. Its growth since 1858 has been considerable. Today one of the largest dry docks in the British empire and the only dry dock on British soil on the Pacific ocean is located here. I mention these things to show that even in those distant days it had a place in global warfare. We believe it will have a greater place in this war before we are through with our wily enemies in the islands of the Pacific.
This afternoon I wish , to refer principally to the training of men for this navy of ours which has expanded so rapidly from a few small ships to over 700 and from a few hundred men to over 80,000. It was as necessaiy to get experienced and trained officers as it was to get men. As the last speaker has said, there was no place to look for these men except in the civilian population. In 1937 a number of young men in Victoria decided that they would take an active part in Canadian naval affairs in order to be ready should there ever be an occasion when their services would be required. Quite a large number of them went to Naden and started taking these courses at night. Without exception I think * the whole of that original class is now serving as officers with the Canadian navy. Those hon. members who had the privilege of seeing the picture "Action Stations" in room 368 on Tuesday night saw what the Canadian navy does and how they discharge the task that is assigned to them. The No. 1 boy on that particular boat, Ted Simmons, as he is known at Victoria, is a Victoria boy and one of the original class. He was decorated for his part in the action which was shown in that picture, for boarding a German submarine, trying to secure documents from the ship itself when it was sinking, and for being the last man off, and finally to meet our own boats. That same boy at a later date received a bar to his

medal for a similar gallant and brave action in the Mediterranean carried out *with coolness and judgment.
But he is not the only one of those civilian boys who left offices or stores and have since played a gallant part in connection with the navy. A few nights ago I read in a local newspaper that the youngest officer ever to command a cruiser, in either the British or Canadian navy, was a Victoria boy, and he was commanding her at the age of twenty-six. He was another of those boys who left their civilian jobs to do a job of this kind with the navy.
Just about this time in 1940 the department realized that if it were going to have a steady .stream of properly trained and properly selected officers for the navy it must have a place to train them, and with this in mind the department selected what I believe was the best place that could have been found in the Dominion of Canada. They chose what was then known to us on the west coast as Hatley Park, the home of the Hon. James Dunsmuir. It was built at great expense to him, and with great care in the laying out of the property. Without doubt it is the most beautiful spot among the many beautiful spots on Vancouver island. Here is one time when the government secured something at a very low cost. They paid for that property $75,000, which was barely sufficient to pay for the cost of the fence around the property. The property as a whole comprises 640 acres. It faces out on Royal Roads and is close to the Esquimalt naval dockyards and barracks. It has a lagoon, a natural lake, in front, and is a very suitable place for the training of naval personnel. For some years it was used for the purpose of training officers for the navy. I do not know how many of the thousand and more officers from British Columbia now serving in the Canadian navy were actually trained there, but I know there were many men from eastern Canada too who received their training in this school. When the department thought it had trained sufficient officer personnel, it converted this property into what is now the Royal Canadian Naval College. The central building is practically a castle in itself, and there are many outbuildings conforming in architecture and substance to the central building. In addition, the government has built a training school, which also does credit to the architect who designed it and to (he navy itself.
I want to give a word of explanation for the benefit of many hon. members who, I hope, will take occasion to visit this college before

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long. I took a minister out to see that property, and after he had seen it he said as we were coming back over the winding road through the bush, which is beautiful, "What luxury!" Well, they are luxurious quarters, and an endeavour was made to take some of the trimmings away so that the place would not look quite so luscious. The whole place was carpeted with a red carpet like may be seen in the other chamber. There was an elaborate billiard room, containing one of the finest billiard tables I think I have ever seen, and gorgeous crystal chandeliers. At the time the negotiations were going on I suggested to the man who was negotiating the deal that we should not purchase these appurtenances because it might be misunderstood by the taxpayers who might visit that piece of property. My advice was accepted, but it did not work out just the way he had thought it would, because other people became interested in this college and in the site and donated the elaborate chandeliers and the rich red carpet. The late Sir Edward Beatty thought the billiard table was a proper thing to have at the college and accordingly he donated it to the school. I make this explanation to remove any impression there might be that the government was spending the people's money unnecessarily.
I maintain that any boy who attends the naval college in Victoria enjoys a rare privilege. There are some twenty-one officers in the school, and they are selected with care. Hon. members would be delighted to meet and to know any one of them. The boys who go there are carefully selected, and mostly by quota, from all the provinces. None of them is under fifteen years and eight months and none is over seventeen years and eight months; all are. physically fit, all splendid looking boys. Physical fitness and ability to make full use of their time are the principal qualifications. I have made it a practice to go out there, and my visits are indeed an inspiration to me. I am sorry that we graduate only fifty boys a year from that school, because it is the symbol of the future of our Canadian navy. We must see to it that we shall never again be in the same position as we were in during the fall of 1939. As I understand it, not all the boys are obliged to join the Canadian navy, but all are obliged to be a reserve for the Canadian navy should they be called upon. I believe that when the time comes they will give a good account of their stewardship and show themselves worthy of their training.
I do not wish to take up much time, but I have three or four suggestions to leave with
the minister which I believe, if adopted, would considerably strengthen our position on the Pacific coast so far as the navy is concerned. It was thought some time ago, and I am not finding fault with the conclusion, that it would be advisable to have the senior officers of the three services located on the mainland and together. Now, with the turn of affairs in the Pacific, would be the right time to have the commanding officer of the navy on the Pacific coast and his staff go back to Esquimalt, where they would be at the very heart of naval affairs, rather than remain on the mainland.
My second suggestion is that because of weather conditions-and certainly there is no better climate in Canada-


Mr. SINCLAIR:: Hear, hear.


Robert Wellington Mayhew: -than the climate on the southern end of Vancouver island-north Vancouver may come next-at least preliminary and elementary training of the boys should as far as possible be carried out at Esquimalt. We on the west coast appreciate the fact that the major activity for the Canadian navy is on the Atlantic coast. We hope that will change, and change soon. Until it does we know that the finishing off of our boys can be better done where there is more equipment with which to do it. But during the first stages of their training they can work more days out of doors and be comfortable on the southern end of the island, at Esquimalt, than they can at any other place.
Another suggestion I would make to the minister is that, to round out the training for Vancouver island and for British Columbia generally, a training ship should be stationed at Esquimalt, not only to train naval personnel but to train men for the merchant marine service as well.
It may be remembered that when I was giving a short history of Esquimalt I said that the first occupation of that harbour was for hospital purposes. At that time it was not thought it was too far to bring wounded soldiers from the Black sea, where they were then fighting, to Esquimalt. I think that to-day Canada should supply hospital accommodation not merely for her own personnel but for the personnel of any of our allies, or even our enemies, who might have to come to British Columbia. I know plans are going forward for further hospital accommodation, and it takes some time. We are not impatient about that; we are glad that they are proceeding as quickly as possible. But I press again, and I think I am right in doing so, that we should look further than merely to

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the care of our own personnel as far as hospitalization is concerned at that particular point.
Another matter to which I should like to call the minister's attention is the lack of the best kind of equipment for the speedy repairing of ships at Esquimalt harbour. I think we should be in a position to take care quickly and adequately of any ship, no matter what its size, which may become disabled in the Pacific and the tools for that purpose should be provided. Probably some of them are so large that they would be used only once or twice in the next twenty-five years or longer, but the quick repairing of a ship when it may come to our coast at this time is one of the protections which we should provide.
I have only one further remark to make. This is the first occasion on which I have spoken in the chamber this year, and I do not. expect to speak very often. I have noticed here, during this session and the last, criticism of various departments which might well have been made, and better made, in other ways. As long as we are a democracy -and I am quite sure we shall always enjoy that form of government-the minister in submitting his estimates must not only give a balance sheet but submit as well in most instances the history of each item connected therewith. I am not one to say that we should not criticize, but in war time our criticism should be reduced to the minimum, and in fact it should be so sparing that, if it were a time of peace, it might be called slackness. On many occasions, however, criticism has a tendency to make the people of Canada waiver in their estimate of the way in which the war is going. For my part, on every occasion, in my own feeble way I have tried to impress upon my people at home that the first duty of every Canadian is to stand steadfast during the war. We should not be carried away with success, nor should we be unduly depressed by losses. We must be prepared to stand steady and to carry on with our job, and anything that disturbs the people of Canada in that regard is detrimental. It is deterrent to our war effort.
I suggest that many of the things We are talking about to-day in this House of Commons will look very small indeed and entirely out of place when they are stacked up against what may happen to us when the second front opens up and our casualties begin to come back. We shall not then be worrying about this allowance and that allowance; we shall be wishing that we could call up the

fellows lost on those beaches so that they might receive any allowance whatever. I think we should try to keep that in mind.
I do not believe the Canadian people will ever elect a parliament that will not recognize its full obligation to the boys who have fought and those who have died for us. I think we can safely leave to any government that may come into power the responsibility of adequately looking after the rehabilitation of these men, believing that they will not do so in any niggardly, half-hearted or penny-pinching manner, but will fully recognize the obligation of those of us who are enjoying at the present time the protection which these men afford us.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Before I begin my remarks, I should like to pay a tribute to the hon. member who has just taken his seat (Mr. Mayhew), for his own family has taken a very great part in the present war. I hope and sincerely pray that the worst does not come to that family. The hon. gentleman's son has made a gallant sacrifice and I trust it will not end in the final sacrifice. I am happy to pay him my undivided respect as one Canadian to another.
As honorary president for many years of the Navy League of Canada, Ontario division, and as a member of the executive of that association for perhaps twenty-five years, I am going to pay a few words of tribute to the minister, and in doing so I make no disparagement of any previous minister who has held office either in the national defence department or in the naval department, because in their time they all did well by the Navy League. [DOT] But the present minister had an opportunity that none of his predecessors had, and I am pleased to say that he has lived up to the best expectations we all formed of his ability to carry outTiis responsibility. I can say that from the time of his appointment he has been an ardent supporter of the work and the objectives of the Navy League of Canada, and I am sure that had it occurred to him while he was speaking-perhaps it will on another occasion-he would have paid tribute to that league for the part it has played in helping him to man the ships that he has had constructed and that are now sailing under his orders.
I believe that last year, 1943, the Navy League of Canada had some eighty-three corps throughout the country, commencing in the minister's own fine city of Halifax where there has always been an exceptionally fine corps. It is one that I inspected on one occasion in former years. There was also a fine corps in Charlottetown-I am not sure whether there is

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one there now-and there are fine corps in Saint John, Sydney, Quebec, Montreal, Kingston, Oshawa, Belleville and Ottawa. There is a fine corps here; hon. members have seen it in the summer time parading on the strefets.' In Toronto we have the headquarters, the moving spirit behind most of the corps in Canada. There are several corps there. In Hamilton, Welland, St. Catharines, London, Windsor, Owen Sound and Sault Ste. Marie there are also very good corps and there is an exceptionally well trained one in Winnipeg. There are others in Regina, Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver and Victoria-


Mr. BREITHAUPT:: Kitchener and
Waterloo.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Well, there are a number of others that I should mention, but naturally some of them will slip my mind. There is a fine corps in Kitchener-Waterloo.
I do not want to take up too much time, but there are others throughout the country that I should mention. All these corps have been supported by many men and women who have given valuable voluntary service. The navy league has never had any difficulty in enrolling under its banners as good as the best men and women in every community in Canada, and wherever they have applied for a corps one has been finally organized. I know that the minister will later on pay tribute to the Navy League of Canada for assisting him in the manning of his ships; for the story he told would prove that the number of enrolments on the ships to-day is tremendous. Canadians throughout the whole country will be thrilled with what Canadian sailors have done. I was pleased to hear the minister pay special tribute to the boys who came from different parts of Canada far removed from the sea. One would naturally expect to find boys from Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, Quebec and British Columbia attracted to the sea because the shores of these provinces are washed by the sea. As I say, one would naturally expect those boys to rally to and enlist in the naval services. The minister paid special tribute to those who came from1 the western provinces. I was pleased -to hear the other day that the representative of the navy- in the cabinet of Great Britain said that what surprised him was the fact that boys who came from sections of Canada far removed from the sea had been able to train rapidly and do such a fine job on Canadian ships and on ships of the British navy stationed in different parts of the world.
My own province of Ontario and my own city of Toronto have done splendidly. Ontario, of course, is the principal centre of the Navy League. Perhaps it derives some advantage
from that. I was pleased to hear the minister state that some eight or nine thousand naval ratings had enlisted from Ontario.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Twenty-nine
thousand.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Twenty-nine thousand ratings.


Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: Ontario is the banner province.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Over thirty-one thousand altogether.


John Ritchie MacNicol: From Ontario alone?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Yes.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That is simply wonderful. That is several times more than I had written down. Ontario is the central province and the most populous province. These boys from Ontario have added fame and glory to their name as have the boys from the other provinces.
I believe there were some thirteen training camps operated last summer under the Navy League. In those camps there were some 6,800 boys.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Six thousand went to the camps.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The figures I received were 6,800, but that is neither here nor there. They were trained for two weeks. Ever since the hon. member for Kingston City became minister of the department he has been very strong in supporting the establishment of those summer training Navy League camps throughout Canada; and now the fruit is being harvested, because boys are going not only to the naval services but to the merchant marine. I do not know how many corps there are in the R.C.N.V.R. throughout Canada, but we did have several in Ontario, including a particularly good one in Toronto. I used to know it much more intimately than I do now.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Nineteen' divisions.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Throughout Canada?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Yes.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Many of the men who serve as instructors served also in the great war, and during the last twenty-five years or more that I have been associated with the Navy League I have been pleased to find that the men who composed the R.C.N.V.R. put great energy and ability into the work they were doing in training young men throughout the country. During those years many people more or less overlooked the work of the Navy League and of the R.C.N.V.R., but the late

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president of the Navy League, Mr. Sam Harris, never gave up. He was figuratively a fighting British bulldog. He went from coast to coast in Canada at his own expense, as did many others associated with the Navy League, stirring up enthusiasm among the corps throughout the country to keep up their good work.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Mr. Chairman, when the committee rose at six o'clock I had just paid a very short but well-deserved tribute to the late Sam Harris, former president of the Navy League of Canada. When Mr. Harris became president of the league, following the last war, he had a most difficult task to keep alive any sentiment or interest in naval affairs, but. he did his job well. I might also have said a word about the late Aemilius Jarvis, who I believe was the founder of the Navy League of Canada ; I joined it about the same time, but I know the late Mr. Jarvis was ahead of us all. To-day we have as head of the Navy League a gentleman who I am sure is well known to the minister, Mr. David Gibson. It is greatly to the credit of Canada that a man like Mr. Gibson, a big business executive, should be willing to devote so much time and energy to assist the department, through the Navy League, in building up the personnel of the Canadian navy. For some years now we have also had as the capable and brilliant secretary of the Ontario division of the league, Mr. Frank Trimble, who during the last war did a man's job with the Y.M.C.A. and is now doing a man's job in assisting the minister and the department to develop and maintain a naval sentiment throughout the country.
I was interested in what the minister said about the shipyards and the men working in them. I should like to add my tribute, and I might say also that I am happy to know that the technical schools throughout the country have made such a contribution in this regard. Perhaps I might refer in particular to the large technical school in Toronto, where they have shops for the training of engineers and mechanics of every description, the graduates of which have done a fine job in helping build these ships. The minister said something about the marine railways; I suppose he was referring to the shipyards.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: To the naval yards partly.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I was just going to say that perhaps from experience gained through the use of these marine railways in naval yards something may result when the war is over in connection with the building of a marine railway across the Chignecto isthmus in the minister's own province, between the bay of Fundy and Northumberland strait. I think the time is long past when something should be done to save the thousand miles of travel that would be saved by the construction of such a marine railway.
Earlier in the discussion the hon. member for Spadina asked a question about the Toronto naval barracks. This question was asked previously by the hon. member for Broadview, and I might add that all the Toronto members received letters similar to that received by the hon. member for Broadview. I remember some years ago, when the Ontario division of the Navy League built its own headquarters out on the lake shore road west of the exhibition grounds. At that time we hoped that a naval barracks would be built in the same vicinity, but apparently that is not to be so. I am heartily in accord with the erection of a naval barracks in Toronto; I think the city and the province deserve it, and I am glad the minister has taken an interest in the matter. I think the property now being considered is east of the exhibition grounds, and that is a first-class site; it will, I understand, be close to York barracks.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Yes, near the exhibition building.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am looking forward to the time when the minister will see his way clear to bring in an item to cover the construction of this naval barracks in Toronto.
Some time ago I asked about the training of young Canadians to fly from aircraft carriers, and no doubt the minister will have some announcement to make in that regard. I know that a number of young men from. Toronto and other parts of Ontario enlisted and were dispatched overseas, apparently under the direction of overseas authorities, to receive this kind of training. I am not finding fault with that at all; they have to train somewhere, and perhaps these young lads wanted to fly from carriers. However, I am looking forward to the minister's report in that connection; and later on, if the war lasts long enough and Canada has aircraft carriers of its own, perhaps these young Ontario lads may be brought back and given an opportunity of flying from Can-

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ada's own carriers. I do not at all discount the wonderful work that has been done by the old country people; perhaps I should not even suggest that our own boys should come back, but if Canada is to have aircraft carriers then I think it would be only right that young lads from Canada should be brought back to fly from them.
I wish to thank whoever it was that corrected me earlier as to the number from Ontario who had enlisted in the navy. The minister stated the figures correctly, but apparently I jotted1 them down wrong. I had the figure as around eight or nine thousand, but during the dinner hour I reviewed the figures in the Hansard office and I find that the number is well on to 30,000 ratings and something over
2,000	officers. Well, as an Ontario man I am proud to see the wonderful part my native province has played in providing personnel for the naval ships of this country. In conclusion,
I thank the minister and congratulate him upon the good job he is doing.
Mr. MeCUAIG:	I am glad to have the
opportunity of following my good friend the hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol), because I know he always takes a keen interest in the work of this house and particularly in anything having to do with construction, such as shipbuilding and so on.
As I listened to the minister eloquently telling the wonderful story of our navy this afternoon, I could not help but wish that the people of Canada might have had an opportunity to be present and hear that story as it was told to us. We all realize that in the last number of years, particularly at the beginning of the war, the people of Canada became air-minded. We were able to see the planes overhead and we could see the airfields located throughout the dominion. However, the difficulty with the navy is that it is to be found only on the east and west coasts. We who live in the central parts of Canada do not have the opportunity of familiarizing ourselves with its work.
The minister referred this afternoon to the
difficulties which had been encountered in connection with shipbuilding, and I should like to confine my remarks mainly to that reference. In my own constituency at Col-lingwood we have a shipyard which has done great work in connection with the building of ships during this war. The minister mentioned that at the beginning of the war there were practically no shipyards building ships in Canada. We were probably fortunate in the fact that the shipyard at Collingwood had built some mine-sweepers and other vessels in the few years preceding the war, but when
they were given orders after the war began they had considerable difficulty in getting experienced men. Many of the men whom they had had some twenty or thirty years ago had gone into other occupations and although they could get men to work, they were unable to get the key men essential for shipbuilding.
They could have gone out and got men elsewhere, but that would have meant taking them away from other essential work. Therefore they adopted a plan, which I think was a good one, of training their own men to handle these key positions. That probably slowed down their operations during the first few months of the war, but I think their work has benefited on account of the plan they followed. When we once more have peace I hope the people will not say, "Let us have no more ships; let us discard our shipyards." If those suggestions are carried out and the time ever comes again when we need ships we shall be in the same position we were in four years ago. I suggest to those who will be in charge when peace comes again, to see to it that shipbuilding is continued, not only to ensure a supply of ships but also to keep available those key men who are essential for the manufacture of ships.
I was glad when the decision was made to build some of the smaller ships such as corvettes and mine-sweepers because these could be built in plants on the great lakes. When they are completed they can be taken down through the great lakes, the St. Lawrence river and through to the sea. It has been found that the work performed by these corvettes has added greatly to the protection we have received on the seas. Their principal work is in connection with convoys from Canada to Great Britain. It may only be a coincidence, but it is interesting to note that as the corvettes began to come into operation, which was early in 1941, ship losses immediately declined. Early in the summer of 1941 quite a number of corvettes were put into operation, and on September 30, 1941, Prime Minister Churchill said in the British House of Commons that ship losses from enemy action for July, August and September of that year were only one-third of what they had been in the three preceding months. As I say, that may be only a coincidence, but that is what happened.
The first corvette put into operation after the commencement of the war was H.M.C.9. Collingwood, built in the Collingwood shipyards. Two other corvettes built in those yards were also named after towns in my county, Orillia and Barrie. The keel for the Collingwood was laid in February, 1940; the ship was christened in July, 1940, and she was

War Appropriation-Naval Services
commissioned and delivered in November, 1940. The keel for the Orillia was laid in the month of March, 1940; the ship was christened in September, 1940, and she was commissioned and delivered in November, 1940. These ships were started early in 1940, and at least two went out before the end of the year from the Collingwood shipyard.
I was interested in hearing the minister state this afternoon that the plan of naming ships after towns and cities had been adopted following a suggestion by Captain Brand. The corvette Barrie was christened by Mrs. Brand, who afterwards took a great deal of interest in the ship and provided assistance to the women of different organizations in that municipality which worked to supply woollens, radios and other equipment for the comfort of the sailors. We were perhaps also fortunate in having as the commander of that ship Lieutenant-Commander Roy M. Mosher. He was born in Nova Scotia and has often been described as a rough diamond but a loyal and capable officer. He endeared himself to the women of our town, and after he left he continued to write letters to the different organization which had been supplying the comforts. I remember reading one letter which was passed over to me in which he said that after he left Collingwood he went to the east coast where his wife was living and arrived there just in time to become the proud father of a son or, as he said, "just in time for the launching". What pleased us more than anything was the fact that he and Mrs. Mosher agreed to calling the boy "Barrie".
I mention these things to show how the different municipalities become interested in the navy, and, it may be, also in the air force. This interest is enhanced by the kindly expressions of people like Captain and Mrs. Brand, and Lieutenant-Commander Mosher.


John Ewen Sinclair: Mr. Chairman, before I discuss the estimates of the Minister of National Defence for Naval Services (Mr. Macdonald), I should like to refer briefly to another naval matter. Last Monday the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Ralston) put on the record of this house the names of two gallant Canadians who had been awarded the Victoria Cross, Lieutenant-Colonel Merritt of Vancouver and Captain P. Triquet of Cabano, Quebec. A little later on the leader of the opposition put on the record the name of Private William Manley who had won the Victoria Cross in Libya while serving in the British army. He felt as I do that any Canadian fighting in the British forces or in the Canadian forces is fighting for his country and deserving of honour in this house. With 
that in mind I should like to adorn the record of this house with the name of a fourth Canadian who has won the Victoria Cross, Captain P. T. Peters of the Royal Navy. Captain Peters was born in Prince Edward Island but early showed his good judgment and wisdom by moving to British Columbia-


Mr. HANSON (Skeena):: Question!


John Ewen Sinclair: -where he settled down in the city of Nelson. I may add that he is undoubtedly the most decorated Canadian in this war, having made a clean sweep of decorations for gallantry in the face of the enemy, because he has also won the D.S.O. and the D.S.C.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Royal Navy.


John Ewen Sinclair: I should like to congratulate the minister upon his presentation of the exploits of the Royal Canadian Navy. I am sure that every Canadian is very proud of both the expansion of the navy and the job which has been done by our navy fighting in its little ships in the north Atlantic. It is a pity perhaps that this house has not among its members a naval officer or rating to bring a whiff of the salt sea air into this chamber. On the other hand, the navy is known as the silent service, and he might feel out of place in the House of Commons as a silent member.


Gordon Graydon: He would have plenty of company.


John Ewen Sinclair: And a colleague behind me suggests that he would be all right as an Ontario member. I do not pretend in this house to be the spokesman of soldiers, sailors or airmen, but I think this is one time I can speak on behalf of every soldier, sailor and airman overseas when I tell the committee of the admiration they all hold for the work done by the Royal Canadian Navy. After all, their first contact with operations is when they go in convoy across the north Atlantic to the old country. I think most of us find it a pretty shaking experience, and when we set foot in England we heave a great sigh of relief and suddenly we realize that the navy has to do that job again and again until the end of the war.
The minister mentioned the part the Canadian navy played in the war in the Mediterranean. I think that when the whole story of the war in Africa and the Mediterranean is written it will not be the eighth army or the desert air force that will get the greatest measure of credit and honour, but the Royal

War Appropriation-Naval Services
Navy under Sir Andrew Cunningham. Very briefly I should like to remind the committee, because it is a story that is not well known, of the part they played. There would not have been a man, a plane, a gun, not even a tin of bully beef in Libya but for_the grace of the British navy. Every man, every tank and every plane came the long way around from England, around the Cape of Good Hope and up the Red Sea into Egypt. It was the Royal Navy that strangled Rommel, that cut off his petrol and ammunition supplies in the Mediterranean, and that made the victory at El Alamein possible. It was the Royal Navy which hurled the heaviest artillery into the ports of North Africa, which were so great a factor in that war. It was the Royal Navy which took that enormous armada of 3,200 ships of every size and shape safely across the waters on the invasion of Sicily, and I think its greatest day or night was September 14 at Salerno, when the beachhead threatened to turn into another Dunkirk. The British navy steamed in close to shore and threw a solid barrage of steel, everything they had, from their 16-inch guns down to their smallest guns, and we held the beachhead. Now they are doing it again at Anzio, and with great loss, as we read in the papers.
I think in every Briton's heart there beats tremendous pride in the British navy, whether it be in our blood, or whether it be our traditions or the songs and stories that we learned in our youth. Certainly, the most memorable sight that I saw in this war was the navy. The good book, of course, speaks of an army with banners. Its modern equivalent would perhaps be tanks going into battle, and certainly a squadron of aircraft taking off for Germany is a moving sight. But nothing is quite so stirring to a Briton as a British man-of-war putting out to sea.
I remember the night we embarked from the grand harbour at Malta for the invasion of Sicily. It was last July. We had been there a month while the squadrons were doing the bombing and softening up of Sicily before the great day of the invasion came. It was a warm July evening when we went down to the Grand harbour at Malta and loaded on a landing barge on a little beach just under the towering cliffs of Valetta. Once aboard we were all tense. I remember well the palms of my hands were a little wet and my lips a little dry, and there was a loose feeling in my bowels perhaps-not that we were afraid, but it is something like starting an election campaign. You know you can do it but you are waiting for it to get under way. Then
down the harbour came a great sight-the Rodney, the Nelson and the Indomitable putting out to sea, and after them cruisers, destroyers, torpedo boats, and a great fleet of invasion barges. The British navy is great for show and tradition, even when going into battle, for as they sailed down the harbour they dressed ship as a salute to heroic Malta. The blue-jackets in their tropical whites stood side by side along the bows of the Rodney and the Nelson, with the Royal Marines in khaki drill with white topees and white piped webbing lined up around the stern, and on the great flight deck of the aircraft carrier Indomitable the brass band played "Hearts of Oak". The airmen on our barge looked [DOT] at the sight and said, "Thank God we have the navy."
It was that sight which determined me when I returned to Canada to come back by a ship of the Royal Canadian Navy. So that when I arrived in London last fall I went to Canadian headquarters. Even there I found a pleasant thing. Overseas our army and our air force had felt that Canada should put on a good show and they have palatial headquarters. But the navy does things in a very modest way. Half of one floor of a very small office building, and not in one of the best parts of London, is where the Royal Canadian Navy carries on its overseas headquarters.
I was given every courtesy, and I can tell this committee that half an hour after I entered I left all booked up, time and place and port, to return to Canada. The service could not have been excelled by any steamship line in civilian life, and I wish to thank the minister now for the courtesy extended to me over there. I should like to tell the committee just a little bit, from a landlubber's point of view, of life with the Canadian navy at sea. I embarked at the port of Londonderry -I do not think that is giving away any secret -and expecting the voyage to be rough and cold, I wore an old suit of battledress. I was rather ashamed when I got on deck to see everybody else looking spic and span in their tiddly blue, the officers in gleaming gold braid, and the sailors so natty with their little hats tipped over one eye, I thought I was letting the air force down by wearing my old suit of battledress. Therefore the following morning I came up in my very best blues, looking very swish, I thought, and I discovered I had made a mistake again because, once at sea, I found the sailors of the Canadian navy were just as Canadians at a hockey rink. They were wearing sweaters, ski jackets and balaclava helmets, any kind of worn dress for convenience and comfort. They were now Canadians at sea, fighting.

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The actual forming of the convoy was a wonderful sight. The great ships formed up, the destroyers and corvettes and the whole flotilla under the commodore. I wish to pay a tribute to these commodores, who I think are the most heroic figures in this war. They are old British admirals long since retired from their fighting ships, but when the war came they left their firesides and went back to sea, some of them' seventy, some seventy-five, and one I know, eighty years of age, with faces the colour of port, and hearts-I cannot describe their hearts. These are the men who have led the convoys back and forth across the Atlantic.
We had thought that we in Libya were ' living under rather desperate conditions. Mind you, since I have got back and started . talking about it the conditions have become more and more desperate; at times I am rather surprised to find that I have survived. But I can tell this committee that the Canadian navy, fighting in these little ships, lives under conditions very much more exacting than the life out in Libya. By their very nature these little ships have not very much in the way of accommodation. A destroyer is away nearly all the time. These old British destroyers and the United States destroyers we have are very poorly heated, if they are heated at all. But these men in the Canadian ships, the destroyers and fair-miles and corvettes and mine-sweepers, live , and fight under these conditions: they have,
I think, perhaps the. finest spirit of any of our fighting services. There is a healthy rivalry between the ships. The Kootenay for example thinks it is the best ship in the fleet; that the Skeena, the Saguenay, the Saskatchewan and the rest of them are not in their class. It is a very fine thing for a man to believe so thoroughly that his own ship is the finest ship afloat.
There is another circumstance, of course, which binds the men of the navy so close together. In the army and the air force, for every combatant in the front line, there are ten, fifteen or twenty non-combatants in various distances behind. In the navy, every man on a destroyer or a corvette, from the skipper on the bridge to the stoker in the hold and the cooks and stewards in the galley, are taking exactly the same risks; they experience, the same hazards; they have the same pride in their ship. The convoy on which I sailed was the first convoy back after the launching of the acoustic torpedo which had resulted in the sinking of the St. Croix. In this country we are inclined to think that the Royal Navy, the British navy, is slow and tradition-bound. To me it was amazing that,

in the seven or eight days which elapsed between the arrival of that convoy and the sailing of ours, the British navy had devised the answer to the acoustic torpedo. The men in the navy were frightfully keen, like fishermen going out with a new lure, to try out this new gear. When action stations rang the fourth night out it was amazing to see the ship transformed; all the men from cooks and stokers upwards knew where they were going and where they had to fight, and manned their posts with the most incredible enthusiasm. This was their chance to see if their gear would work and to get "one up" on the other destroyers of the Canadian navy.
As far as living conditions are concerned, a very great deal has been done for the Canadian navy both by the towns which have adopted these ships and by the Navy League and the women's organizations across this countiy. If there is one thing these men at sea need it is warm clothing, and they have received it in substantial quantities, but the quantity must be increased from all parts of Canada.
I should like to speak briefly now on the navy as it affects the Pacific coast. I am the member representing half of Vancouver harbour, which is the biggest year-round harbour in Canada. On the United States side are four great Pacific coast harbours-San Diego, San Pedro for Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Seattle-each one of them having a big naval establishment. The great city of Vancouver, however, has not a single naval dock or pier. There is one small barracks at Dead Man's island. The reason is obvious. We had an old and established naval base, of which the hon. member for Victoria spoke so well this afternoon, Esquimalt, established by the British government in 1853. When the British government established Esquimalt the mainland of British Columbia was pretty well a howling wilderness. Vancouver harbour was used only by the Indians. All naval supplies came by sea into Esquimalt, so the fact that Esquimalt was on an island was no handicap. Now, however, this situation has changed. All supplies or almost all supplies for Esquimalt come from the mainland of Canada; they pass through the harbour of Vancouver, and over civilian docks and by civilian transport to Esquimalt. The time has surely come when Vancouver should have naval docks and naval piers, so that naval supplies transferred between Vancouver and Esquimalt can be handled with purely service facilities. Vancouver is well equipped for this purpose, because we have plenty of good land, and deep sea anchorage; that is, in North Vancouver, and

War Appropriation-Naval Services
the two biggest and best shipyards in Canada.
The hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green) has shown great interest in what part the army and air force are to be permitted to play in the war against Japan. If there is one service which will play a very important part, we know it to be our navy, and when our navy moves to the west coast, Vancouver and Esquimalt must be its principal bases.


Olof Hanson: And Prince Rupert.


John Ewen Sinclair: I will include the great seaport of the hon. member for Skeena. Therefore I would suggest to the minister that the time has come to build and plan on the west coast for the winding up by our navy of the war against Japan.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I was pleased to hear the hon. member for Vancouver North (Mr. Sinclair) praise the boys of the navy. The hon. member for Simcoe North (Mr. McCuaig) mentioned shipbuilding, but it is the men of the navy, the men who man the ships, who are the real heroes.
Corvettes have been mentioned. I do not believe reference has been made to the Fairmiles and the mine-sweepers. I know, from boys who have been on these ships in convoy work and patrolling, and in these minesweepers, that sometimes for days on end they have to stand up to their meals; the meals, just as they are, perhaps uncooked, are passed to them, because the corvettes and minesweepers and Fairmiles do not merely pitch; they roll and toss. It takes an extremely strong man to stand up under these conditions, and these boys and men deserve every bit of credit the Canadian people can give them; they have done a wonderful job and are continuing to do it.
Just here I wish to read a short article which was in the newspaper on March 2. It is entitled, "Six Tiny Fairmiles Ride Gale; Guard Convoy Through Night", and states:
Six tiny Fairmile launches pushed their sleek noses into the teeth of the worst maritime blizzard in years. February 24, on sudden orders to supply patrol protection, presumably for a
convoy.
The story of the 12-hour, night-long battle of the little ships and their crews, withheld until now for security reasons, was disclosed to-day by naval headquarters. Details of their job were not given. It was merely disclosed they performed duty normally expected of "big ships".
Manned chiefly by volunteer reserve men, the patrol craft suffered no damage despite high seas, lashing snow and spray driven by a 50-mile-an-hour wind. Visability was cut to 200 yards. The period was an anxious one for even the largest ships in the area.
The performance of the motor-launches in a storm which saw many marine accidents and
ships driven ashore drew the first signal of praise in this war for that type of work. Rear Admiral L. W. Murray, commander in chief, Canadian Northwest Atlantic, signalled commendations to the ships, which operate under Captain J. A. Heenan of Ottawa.
When I was in Halifax, Admiral Murray suggested that if I ever got the chance I should see the motion picture entitled, "Corvete K225". If any hon. member here has not seen that picture he certainly should see it. It gives one an idea of what these boys have to go through and what they are doing.
I am very much interested in the navy owing to the fact that the Grove school is in my riding. There are over 260 old boys on its honour roll. These boys have joined the navy, and I may say that Vice-Admiral Nelles went to school at Grove, as did many of the officers of the Canadian and Royal navies. I believe it was the first institution in Canada to have a sea cadet corps, and I know that during 1940, 1941 and 1942 the flag at the school was at half-mast practically all the time for boys who had gone to the school.and had afterwards lost their lives fighting in the Canadian navy. During 1943 there were not as. many sinkings, and therefore the flag was not quite so often at half-mast.
The reason why Grove school is perhaps the first to have established a sea cadet corps in Canada is, in my opinion, the fact that Peterborough, the riding I have the honour to represent, is one of the boating paradises of Canada.
The minister to-day did not mention the officers of the Canadian Pacific Steamships' personnel. I find in the press of March 6 an article with reference to Canadian Pacific Steamships' officers who have been honoured. I quote:
As part of the 5,599 Canadian Pacific Steamships' personnel on admiralty, armed cruiser and shore service, ten officers have been honoured by the king "for good services" in vessels from among the twenty Canadian Pacific ships taken over by the admiralty in 1939. Awards for heroism won by the Canadian Pacific seagoing personnel in this war now total forty-one. The newcomers to join the honour roll are:
Captain R. A. Leicester, O.B.E., master of a vessel sunk in the Mediterranean when Engineer Officers Edward E. Stewart and William B. Harris, both of Victoria, won M.B.E.'s.
Chief Officer Donald Smith, O.B.E., of Vancouver and First Officer Leonard Johnston, M.B.E., of Vancouver, who guided refugees to safety after the Japs sunk their ship, the Empress of Asia, off Singapore.
Chief Engineer William JVeilson, O.B.E., of Victoria and Captain L. C. Barry, M.B.E., for more than two years continuous operation "in dangerous waters".

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Captain George Goold and Chief Officer John St. Claire Clarke, both of Vancouver, and Chief Engineer D. Cowper commended for their actions when the Italians sunk the Empress of Canada off West Africa.
The minister did not say anything to-day as to whether Canada intended to build any aeroplane carriers for our navy. I think he should have let the committee know what is going to be done along that line, because the Canadian navy will have to carry planes perhaps before this war is over and certainly before another war comes along.


Mr. JACKMAN:: One cannot help being greatly impressed with the account the minister has given of the activities of the navy. Its growth from a small pre-war permanent force of 1,700 personnel to over 74,000 is a record of which any country may be proud. Indeed, I understand that the personnel of our navy is now greater in extent than that of the Royal Navy in peace time. In addition to that number of 74,000, we must not overlook the establishment of the Women's Royal Canadian Naval Service, which has grown since the autumn of 1942, when the first class was started, to a personnel of over 4,500, and to the Wrens I should like to pay a special tribute.
Our Canadian boys have proven themselves great sailors; and it has amazed all how the young lads, not only from the maritime provinces but from one end of the country to the other, including the prairies, have taken to the sea as if it were their native haunt. So high is the tradition of the British navy, so strong is the lure of the sea, that when a poll was taken at a boys' school near Toronto to ascertain which of the three services was the most popular the navy won the vote.
It is not my 'intention to praise the minister for naval services any more than I would praise the minister for air, whose partisanship when in opposition was notorious. I am not in a position to know how much better their tasks might have been fulfilled, but there are so many stout fellows in the navy as well as in the other services that I feel we cannot pay too great a tribute to their ability and to their eagerness to serve where the danger is greatest. At the same time, the Minister of National Defence for Naval Services (Mr. Macdonald) has not hesitated to adopt new ideas or, if I read correctly between the lines, to make changes in personnel in a quiet way for the betterment of the great service which is the particular care of his department.
The heroism of the men in the silent service will go down in the annals of our country. I think of one of my young friends who, in the early days of the war, lost his life when in command of the leading motor-torpedo boat tMr. G. H. Fraser.)
in a raid which blocked the harbour of St. Nazaire. I recall another young man from my own riding who was on a corvette that rammed a submarine off the coast of Cuba, a youth who entered the navy as a rating on leaving school, and whose ability has now been recognized by his promotion to a sublieutenancy.
Our part m conquering the submarine menace has been a notable contribution to the war effort, for as long as that menace persisted there was little chance of organizing an effective invasion of the nazi fortress of Europe. Great Britain, in appreciation of our contribution to the common cause and of our ability to man and sail ships of war, has given Canada, by way of reverse mutual aid, two cruisers which will constitute the nucleus of capital ships for the Royal Canadian Navy.
May I add a word to the praise which the minister has already given to those splendid young women who are members of the W.R.C.N.S. The Wrens have so proved their effectiveness as an integral part of the navy in Great Britain that it was decided that the formation of a like organization in Canada would be a needed and desirable contribution to the war effort on the part of our country, relieving, as it does in some degree, our manpower shortage. At our request we borrowed from the Women's Royal Naval Service of Great Britain three of their officers to assist in setting up the W.R.C.N.S. in Canada. In April, 1942, Superintendent Carpenter, notwithstanding failing health at that time, cheerfully and ably carried out the task to which she had been assigned. After resuming duties in Great Britain she was awarded the order of Commander of the British Empire. Accompanying her was Captain Isherwood, who remained for a somewhat longer time in Canada as the first head of the W.R.C.N.S.
The high standards of the Canadian Wrens owe much to the organizing and administrative ability of Superintendent Carpenter and Captain Isherwood. Accompanying these two officers was Lieutenant Sturdee, a granddaughter of the famous admiral of that name who fought at the battle of Jutland.
While selective recruiting for Wrens was still going on apace, the present Director of Wrens, Commander Sinclair, was assigned to the British Wrens, and on the return of Captain Isherwood to Great Britain, Commander Sinclair took over the command and has since that time devoted to the organization her high executive talents.
May I here pay a tribute to Great Britain for her contribution in helping in organizing the Canadian Wrens, as well as in offering the

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model for the Canadian navy. I do this not because the contribution comes from across the water but because that contribution represents the highest development which the experience of centuries has given to a service that stands ever ready and ever eager to serve its country. To appreciate fully the contribution which the Wrens are making to our war effort it is necessary to review their activities which have in virtually all cases been the means of releasing sailors for active service'. They have replaced men in map plotting, signalling, as dietitians, cooks, waiters, sick-berth attendants, drivers, clerks, typists, and in the handling of mail, messengers, et cetera. May I read an extract from the official pamphlet "Canada at War" for January of this year:
A Wren officer is captain of a training ship ashore-first woman to achieve that distinction; another officer graduated from an accounting officers' course with male officers; a Wren is doing medical research for the navy in a guarded laboratory; Wren dietetics officers (under Lieut.-Commander Taylor) supervise the food eaten by naval personnel ashore or afloat; a Wren officer instructs seamen cooks at the naval cooking school at H.M.C.S. Cornwallis at Deep Brook, N.S.; a Wren checked all the shipping through the Welland canal during the navigation season.
As the minister mentioned, the Wrens are serving at over thirty different naval bases in Canada, Washington, Newfoundland and overseas. Indeed, one British guest child who came to Canada in the early days of the war has since returned and is now a stoker Wren running a harbour craft in one of the British ports. That she is a granddaughter of the Lord Chancellor of Great Britain is only an indication of the high quality of the young women who seek service in the Wrens. No less worthy of mention is the fact that the daughter of my office mate, the hon. member for St. Paul's (Mr. Ross) is a driver Wren.
Owing to the high type of young woman who has been attracted to the senior service, there has been little occasion for disciplinary action. The excellent training which the Wrens are receiving and the fact that they are serving together in an organization with the highest ideals of service, are making them not only better women, but better citizens of our great country.


Mr. GILLIS:: Along with other hon. members I have listened with a great deal of interest to the minister's presentation. I was particularly interested1 in his winding-up remarks. I think the minister was perhaps more realistic at that point than during all the rest of his address, because most of his address con-100-S4
sisted of putting statistics on the record, showing the growth and development of the navy. I am sure we all join with him in that connection in expressing our appreciation of a job well done. However, the minister stated and reiterated what the ministers of national defence for army and air stated, that our first and most important obligation is the winning of the war and that we must not lose sight of the fact that it is far from won. Second, the minister sharply disagreed with some hon. members on this side of the house, and I think rightly so, in their criticism of spending any time of the committee on post-war problems. I believe the minister was absolutely right when he stated1 that in order to build up the morale of those in the fighting services- all three of them-it was necessary that we at home demonstrate-particularly those in the House of Commons-from time to time that we are not unmindful of the fact that they are fighting not only against something but for something; that we in this House of Commons know what they are fighting for, and that we are utilizing our time to lay down a programme and policy with respect to the organization of the economic resources of the country to guarantee to them, as the minister stated, that when they come back they will return to a Canada that will assure them of equality of opportunity, the right to a job, and the right to earn a living. As we discuss the problems that come before the house from time to time I do not think we must lose sight of that for a moment. I believe that any time used in this house in discussions with respect to post-war problems is time well spent. I believe it is one of the most important things that this committee can do, particularly if we have those in the services in mind and if we desire to send them forward to make their greatest contribution. That contribution can only be made when they realize that we back here are doing something to change the scheme of things from what it was when war broke out. That is the greatest morale builder that we in Canada can undertake for those in the services.
So far in the debate members from both parties in the committee have risen and have led the minister to believe that his job is completed, or at least there has been no criticism. The speeches so far have consisted of straight eulogies of the presentation. Some hon. members have been doing a little job here and there for their own constituencies. As I see it, the function of the opposition is to accept what the government has to offer and to criticize any proposal that comes before the committee-constructively, of course-in order to urge the government forward to a greater



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effort. I believe that can best be done by taking the policy that existed in the past year, boiling it down to cases and pointing out for the benefit of the minister just where that policy did not live up to expectation.
From time to time ministers rise in their places in the committee and say: "Individual cases should not be discussed in the committee". There is no other practical way possible that I know of whereby improvements can be made than by mention of individual cases. That is the most specific and shortest way of demonstrating to a minister the ineffectiveness of his programme as it is being administered in the country. The best way to do it is to boil it down and exemplify it. That is the shortest, most concrete and most specific way in which it can be done. I disagree with those who say that individual cases should not be discussed in the committee. A very good policy can be ruined by faulty administration, and any minister of government, particularly a minister of a war department, who has a large organization that extends in many directions is certainly not in a position to keep his finger on every specific detail of administration as it affects the people of the country. Some official or officials perhaps not as familiar with regulations as they should be, can create a situation in the country, unknown to the minister, that is adverse to the whole policy of the department. The shortest and most specific way of bringing that to his attention is to give him the case, because in my opinion a case arises in either one of two- ways, either through an inefficient official or through a faulty policy. I think if it is given to the minister in that way he will have some idea of where to check and what to check for. I have no apologies to offer for mentioning one or two matters at this time, though I am not going to discuss everything I have in mind. I understand that it is the intention to proceed as we did with the air and army estimates, and that specific questions may be discussed as we go through the estimates item by item. However, there are one or two matters of policy which I should like to bring to the minister's attention.
The first matter about which I should like to speak is the merchant marine. The minister commented on the service it is rendering, and on many occasions I have stated in the house that while we recognize the job being done by the army, the navy and the air force, and we have paid them tribute time and again, the merchant marine is a greatly neglected branch of the service, although in my opinion it is one of the most important. These men have suffered casualties; they have undergone all
	|	' _ jj| infill
kinds of hardship; yet they have not the right to wear a uniform and receive very little glory and very little recognition of the service they are performing. In my opinion they are badly treated. The minister may say this would come more properly under the Department of Transport, that he has nothing to do with the movement of these ships and very little to do with the manning pools through which the men are routed out to service. My contention is and always has been, and will continue to be, that the merchant navy should come under the direction of the Canadian navy. In the first place I believe that these boys have a right to wear a uniform and that they should be supplied with uniforms by the government as uniforms are supplied to other branches of the service. The hon. member for Vancouver North (Mr. Sinclair) rightly eulogized the work of the navy in connection with convoying, but he failed to mention the boys who are taking the real licking, the boys on these old ships with very little means of protection. If a ship in a convoy gets knocked off, the others carry on and that ship is left to struggle on alone. These men are taking the real chances, the real lickings; they are suffering the real hardships, and in my opinion they should be handled exactly as the other services are handled in this country.
What happens to one of these boys if he becomes a casualty? I said that perhaps the shortest and best way to bring a matter to the minister's attention was to cite an example, and I have a case here of a boy who served two years in the merchant marine. He went all over the world, then came back to Halifax and was discharged from his ship, suffering from a mental condition no doubt brought on by his service. He wandered around Halifax for a while, then was picked up and sent home to his parents in that condition. Representations have been made to everyone I could think of. The boy was placed in an ordinary mental institution in Inverness county, and not one of the best institutions in the country either; it is a place to which people are sent when all hope is gone. This boy's father has written to everyone; he has seen me, and I have written to everyone, always without results. We were given to understand that if the boy could be placed in an institution in Halifax and given the proper treatment there would be a possibility of restoring him to health, for he is only twenty years of age. But I could find no agency that would take the responsibility of guaranteeing any payment or of putting him in any institution. He is still in that place in Inverness county, and only to-day I had another letter from his father. That is pretty rotten treat-

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meat to give a boy of that age, who went to sea and took everything that came in those convoys for at least two years, during which he was at Crete and all those other places.
I leave that thought with the minister because I believe this country has a definite obligation to that boy and his parents, who are not in financial circumstances to provide treatment for him. The Department of Pensions and National Health as well as several other departments, both provincial and federal, have had this matter up for consideration without results. I believe that in a case like this a boy who has performed such services, whether in the merchant marine or in any other branch of our forces, should be provided with the medical attention necessary to restore him to his former condition of health. That is, only one case of this kind. There may be several others, and no doubt will be.
There is another matter of policy on which I should like to ask a question, and I am going to mention another case. About eighteen months ago a young man who had a special trade made application to join the navy at Halifax. He wanted to go in a specialist branch of the service, where he could make his best contribution by carrying on his own trade. Local officials were quite ready to accept him. Then, as a result of some misdemeanour committed by his parents some years ago, his application was rejected. Now he has been called up by the army. The point I wish to make is this. This man decided where he wanted to go and volunteered his services to the navy. He wanted to go into the branch of the service where he could make his best contribution, where it would take the least training to qualify him to make that contribution, but his application was rejected.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Is
that the young man my hon. friend wrote me about? My hon. friend wrote about a case similar to this; is it the same case?


Clarence Gillis: That is right. Now this man has been called into the army. The point I am making is that he is being pulled into a branch of the service against his will. To all intents and purposes he has been forced into the service; he is a conscript, whereas months ago he volunteered his service where he could have made his maximum contribution. In the branch of the service where he is now it will take a good deal more training to qualify him than would have been the case in the navy. I do not know why that policy should prevail; if a man is acceptable in one branch of the service as far as character goes he should be acceptable in the others. If he is not suitable for one particular branch, for certain reasons, then he should not be suitable for any branch 100-84i	. '
of the service, because I put them all on the same basis when it comes to a matter of that kind. In this case I think a good deal of the country's money has been wasted. Here is a man who volunteers for the navy and who could have made his maximum contribution months ago, whereas now he is pulled in against his will and put in a branch where he will not be very well satisfied.
There is another matter I should like to call to the minister's attention, again because I think it has to do with a matter of policy.
I am not going to use any names; the minister can check these matters, because they have all been before his department in the past. There was a young man serving in the navy as a petty officer. His ship was lost and he was lost with it. His mother is seventy-three years of age. She cannot obtain an old age pension in Nova Scotia because in the days of depression, when the going was tough, she went to Detroit and lived there for a few years. Because she had spent a few years out of the province she is not now entitled to an old age pension even though she is seventy-three years of age. She has made application to the Department of Pensions and National Health for a dependents' pension because her boy who would have contributed to her support was lost at sea. The matter has not been settled; it is still in the slings. They are chasing it around.
In circumstances like this I do not think there should be any question about what should be done. In his address the minister referred to the necessity of keeping up the morale of those in the service and the obligation that we in this country have to guarantee to these boys that we are looking after their [DOT] dependents. I do not think this is a matter of policy; it is a matter of faulty administration. The boy was lost at sea and the mother has no other source of income. Things of this kind get around and relatives of boys in the service and others hear of it. Such things do not build up the morale which is so necessary.
There is another matter of policy which I should like the minister to check. I refer to the medical men who are serving at different ports under the present merchant marine-set-up. These qualified doctors have been requisitioned for service and designated to ports like Halifax, Sydney and Vancouver as port doctors. They look after all the ships coming in, including naval ships, but they are not entitled to wear a uniform. Their income is much lower than that paid to medical men in the services. Many of them have tried to transfer to the army, navy or air force-I speak from personal knowledge-but they have

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not been permitted to do so. What hurts these men most of all is the fact that they have no right to wear a service button or ribbon. Their families receive no dependents' allowance. Many of them are young men and they are making a considerable contribution, but when the war is over they are faced with the possibility of being branded as slackers. The fact is that they are carrying on one [DOT]of the toughest jobs medical men can do. They are working for fourteen hours a day and are on call at any hour of the night should a ship arrive and require examination for quarantine purposes. Most of these men are qualified for the rank of major in the army, which rank I believe is given to most medical men. This is one thing the minister should check up, because it is nothing less than an oversight to place men of this calibre in this position.
There are a number of other matters that can be discussed with the minister by way of questions, but I thought these few rambling thoughts dovetailed into the matter of policy and were in accordance with the minister's statement that matter's of this kind should be checked up in order not to leave the impression with those in the service that we were not interested in the small everyday things of life. If we take care of the small things, the large ones will take care of themselves.


Mr. McNIVEN:: Mr. Chairman, most hon. members who have taken part in this debate have been residents of the Atlantic or Pacific coasts, or of regions adjacent to large inland waters and the committee may wonder why I, a landlubber from the centre of Canada, from a point almost equidistant from the . Atlantic and the Pacific, am venturing into this debate. I do so for several reasons. Coming as I do from central Canada, I do not propose to follow the example of some of those who have spoken already and demanded special consideration for their particular harbours, nor will I attempt to vie with the hon, member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. Neill). While the debate between the hon, member for Skeena (Mr. Hanson) and the hon. member for Vancouver North (Mr. Sinclair) was going on, the hon. member for Comox-Alberni turned to. me and whispered that he had a harbour at Alberni which was as expansive as the western prairies and capable of holding all the fleets in the world.
I should like to refer for a moment to the address delivered this afternoon by the Minister of National Defence for Naval Services (Mr. Macdonald) and to congratulate him most sincerely upon the picture he painted of the development of the Canadian navy. I

want to commend him for the modesty he displayed in outlining those accomplishments.
I listened to the remarks of the hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Gillis). The other evening he and the hon. member for Weyburn (Mr. Douglas) commended the Minister of National Defence for Air (Mr. Power) for the achievement of the Canadian air force, and this evening the hon. member for Cape Breton South has commended the minister for the achievements of the Canadian navy. I hope these hon. members realize.that in the development of our air force and navy there has been some intensive planning, that there was somebody who directed in order to bring about this achievement, that there was somebody who planned, somebody who charted, somebody who made the blueprints. Both these hon. gentlemen belong to a group that would have the Canadian people believe they have a monopoly upon planning, blueprinting and charting courses which result in worth-while achievement.
After making a general eulogy of the minister the hon. member for Cape Breton South stated a number of specific cases. He said that in making this reference he was making no apology to the committee. However, I think the hon. member will agree that he should have apologized to the committee, because the four cases he referred to were all outside the Department of National Defence for Naval Services. He referred to the medical men on the Atlantic coast who belong to the merchant marine and serve as port doctors, and he complained of the role they were having to play in these stirring times. He said . that at some subsequent date they might be regarded as slackers. I do not think these men need have any fear. If they are performing the duties outlined by the hon. member I think they will come within the terms of that old saying "he also serves who only stands and waits".
In September, 1939, the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) placed the assets, and resources of Canada at the side of. Great Britain. Since then the assets and resources of this country have been steadily, mobilized for an all-out war effort. May I remind the committee that, as an initial step in that direction, a few days after the declaration of war, when the British admiralty sent a message to the Canadian government asking it how soon the Canadian navy would be ready for convoy work, the reply was sent back "Immediately", and within six days of the declaration of war eighteen ships loaded with food and supplies left a Canadian port under convoy by the Canadian navy.
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Since that day the personnel of the Canadian navy has grown forty-one times, and it is interesting to note that the greater proportion of that growth is included in the Royal Canadian Naval Volunteer Reserve, drawn from the four comers of Canada, from every walk and occupation in life. These young men, some 67,000 in number, have joined the Canadian navy and are serving wherever required.
I wish to thank the minister in particular for his reference to young men from the Canadian west who have joined the Canadian navy, for of the total to which I have just referred, 26,394 ratings and 1,694 officers have come from western Canada. Many of these young men, as the minister remarked this afternoon, prior to enlistment never saw a bit of water larger than a prairie slough, or a ship larger than a sailing boat on some of our smaller sheets of water. It was gratifying to us to hear the minister pay a tribute to these young men, a tribute to their courage, their alertness, their intelligence, and to the way in which they have performed their duties which were new and novel. That same tribute has been paid on a number of occasions in different parts of Canada by the minister and likewise by the Prime Minister and by many senior officers of the navy. I suggest to you, sir, that that achievement, the number of recruits who have come from western Canada, has been made possible by the enthusiasm and the steadfastness of. groups of men, who, following the last war, maintained an interest in naval matters through the operation of naval recruiting stations in different parts of Canada. In my own city of Regina we have had a naval company since the close of the last war; up to a few months ago that naval company had trained over 2,200 recruits for the Royal Canadian Navy, and these lads had later completed their special training on either the Atlantic or the Pacific. That achievement is so notable that I cannot refrain from again mentioning the names of the men who have contributed to that success. There comes to my mind Lieutenant-Commander Hall, Lieutenant-Commander Ellison, Lieutenant-Commander Grant, Lieutenant-Commander Pickersgill, all of whom are on active service in the present war; likewise Petty Officers Jeffery and Smith, who are also on active service.
I should like to commend the minister for the policy to which he referred this afternoon of naming corvettes and destroyers after important points in the Dominion of Canada. It is interesting to note that a number of corvettes have been named after Saskatchewan
cities and towns. It is a matter of regret that the corvette Weybum was lost in action. The corvette Rosthern has done excellent service, and it is a matter that should be noted, I think, that of the four submarines sunk by Canadian naval vessels unassisted, in 1943, the corvettes Moose Jaw and Regina were responsible for two of them, this being one occasion when Moose Jaw and Regina can unite in a common acclaim.
I should like to give some particulars with regard to the corvette II.M.C.S. Regina. When on duty in the Mediterranean she encountered an Italian submarine and blew her clean out of the water. At that time the ship was commanded by Lieutenant-Commander Harry Freeland, who, may I say to my friends the hon. member for Queens-Lunenburg (Mr. Kinley) and the hon. member for Shelbume-Yarmouth-Clare (Mr. Pottier), comes from Nova Scotia. This officer has had a splendid record, having served on H.M.C.S. Assiniboine and Lord Strathcona. At the present time he is commanding officer of the frigate Outremont. The present commanding officer of II.M.C.S. Regina is Lieutenant J. W. Radford, who has had wide experience, having served on H.M.C.S. Collingwood and Orillia.
At the outbreak of- the war Canada had1 no shipbuilding industry. There were, as the minister mentioned' this afternoon, only a few ship repair yards and some 5,000 men engaged in that industry. Since that time Canada has equipped some twenty-three major shipyards and some sixty-five minor shipyards, and1 in that industry now has an investment of well over $500,000,000, employing well over 100,000 men and women, turning out ships of war and ships for the merchant navy with a total commitment approximating $1,000,000,000.
The minister mentioned this afternoon the number of corvettes that had come down the slips and the prominent part that the corvettes are playing in convoy work and in action. It may be of interest to note that the first corvette built in Canada was launched in 1739 and was contracted for by N. Lavesseur and launched at the city of Quebec. It was a corvette, then called a sloop of war, a little less in size than our frigates and having many of the features of the present-day corvette. The results that have been obtained in the shipbuilding industry, both naval and marine, is a magnificent tribute to the way in which capital and labour have worked together. It is a magnificent tribute to the way in which the management and the worker have come together in Canada's emergency to produce
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ships of war and merchant ships which were needed in greater production than any other commodity at the time.
It is apparent that the Canadian navy, from its accomplishments and achievements which have been enumerated this afternon, is living up to the best traditions of the British navy, which has long been the acme of national service anywhere in the world. It will be remembered that in May, 1940, at the time of Dunkirk, when Mr. Churchill made that historic speech, he said "to build the ships and strangle the U-boat." Because of the assistance given by the Canadian navy, he was able to announce in the British House of Commons on November 9, 1943, that they had broken [DOT]the back of the U-boat campaign.
Canadians everywhere are proud of the achievements of the Canadian navy, and occasionally it may sound as though we were patting ourselves on the back when we eulogize the accomplishments of our own service. It is for that reason that I should like to refer to a tribute which was paid to the Canadian navy by a great publication in an allied country. I refer to the Saturday Evening Post, published in the United States, which on August 21, 1943, on its editorial page, said this under the heading, "Canada Saved the Day":
As this is written we seem to be well on the way toward victory in the battle of the Atlantic. The menace of the U-boat recedes as allied naval power grows and new techniques are developed for anti-submarine warfare. Land-based patrol planes and the rapidly growing use of converted carriers on Atlantic convoy have helped enormously. Britain, Canada and the United States are all sharing in this triumph over Hitler's strongest weapon.
What mo'st Americans don't realize, however, is that there were many desperate months when Canada stood between us and disaster.
Sea traffic, like that on the rails, divides neatly into two categories-passengers and freight. Our passengers in the battle of the Atlantic are troops bound for England, the Mediterranean theatre and other war fronts. They travel, heavily escorted, in fast ships, and they are comparatively little trouble. They get through with but little loss.
But the freight traffic is another matter. It is composed of trade convoys, the rusty and battered merchantmen that deliver the goods. They carry fuel oil, gasoline, iron ore, grain, frozen meats, tanks, planes, guns, explosives and hundreds of other products vital to the conduct of war. The size of these convoys and the frequency of their sailings are, of course, information the Germans would like to have, but it can be said here that both are much greater than you probably imagine. If the trade convoys had not been kept running, the allies doubtless would have lost the European war by this time.
There was a time before Pearl Harbor when the United States contributed substantial help in the way of escort ships for the freight convoys. But after Japan struck, much of our
(Mr. McNiven.l
naval strength was needed in the Pacific, and we also had to use our fighting ships to guard the troop convoys crossing the Atlantic. The burden of protecting the freighters fell chiefly upon England and Canada. Britain, with a very limited amount of help from the Norwegian, Polish and Fighting French navies, supplied fifty-one per cent of the escort vessels for the trade convoys; the United States contributed two per cent, and little Canada, amazingly, provided forty-seven per cent.
This does not mean, of course, that the United States w'as drowsing during those long and critical months. We supplied aircraft for freight convoy patrol and extensive ship and plane repair bases on both sides of the Atlantic. We guarded the growing stream of troops on their way to a global war. And after the fall of Singapore and Java we held the line almost alone in the Pacific. Also, it should not be forgotten that long before Pearl Harbor we had handed over to the British fifty of our over-age destroyers.
Yet the fact remains that we probably would have lost the war if the Canadian navy hadn't come through in a spectacular and heroic way. It is not surprising that Britain, with her great sea power and resources, should have been able to shoulder fifty-one per cent of the job. But it is one of the marvels of this war that Canada, an agricultural nation of less than 12,000,000 people, could have contributed forty-seven per cent of the vast fleet of fighting ships necessary to get the freighters across.
How Canada accomplished such a feat is an epic that should be written in large letters. When the war began in September. 1939. the Canadian navy was composed of a handful of destroyers manned by a personnel of less than
2,000	men. To-day that personnel has expanded twenty-five fold. As for ships of war. Hitler would like to know the exact figures; Canada's performance in the north Atlantic tells the story.
Of the fifty American destroyers which were traded to the British, Canada got seven, but while these were a real help they were only a beginning-a stop-gap. During the early months of the war, the need became apparent for a new type of war vessel: a ship designed to combat the U-boat, to be launched in large numbers, in a hurry. There was no time to be lost. The answer was an improvisation-a happy improvisation called the corvette.
The corvette is a small ship-under 1,000 tons, less than 200 feet long, but broad of beam-yet she is definitely an ocean-going craft. Her steaming radius enables her to make the transatlantic run with a reserve of fuel which destrovers may envy. Her ability to survive the most frightful weather the north Atlantic can dish up is an eternal joy to those who sail her. The corvette is slow, but the old-fashioned reciprocating steam engine-which were available when the need came-are highly reliable, and reliability means much on the Atlantic convoy route. Moreover, she is amazingly manoeuverable. Her armament is adequate for the job she has to do.
Once the Canadians had the design for the corvette and knew it was the answer, they set about building it in numbers that would shock the nazi high command if it knew. Large shipyards and small ones, even tiny boatyards whose experience had been limited to fishing boats and pleasure craft, responded in a way

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that made history. And husky young lads from the prairie provinces went down to the sea to man them. Canada made do.
Now the vast resources of the United States are being brought to bear on the U-boat problem in a larger way, and the ratio of escort craft provided by Britain, Canada and. America may be changing. But Canada is still doing her part and will continue to do so, we may be sure, until the day of peace. Is it any wonder, then, that the Canadian sailor may be just a trifle offended when his cousin from south of the border inquires with polite condescension:	"Tell me, does Canada have a
navy?"
Such was the unsolicited tribute paid to Canada, to Canada's Navy, by the Saturday Evening Post, a magazine which has a weekly circulation of over four millions.
In the last war and as a result of the last war, Canada became a nation. As a result of this war Canada has become a world power.


Mr. McIVOR (Fort William):: I wish to ask the minister two questions, but before I do so I should like to pay a tribute to him for the masterly way in which he presented the record of his department. I do like to hear a minister who can stand up and speak up, showing that he knows what he is talking about, and then by deeds of valour proves what he has been talking about. We at the head of the lakes live on the shore of the greatest body of fresh water in the world. Before the last war we had a shipyard, and when war broke out that yard began to live, when the workers came back. The tribute paid the other evening by the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe) was well worthy of the workers who have been producing from the Port Arthur shipyards. Not only that, but we have had a sea cadet training centre there for years, and just as soon as war was declared there was no busier spot anywhere in Canada than that Port Arthur training centre. They all wanted to be given a chance, and I have gone there to see what I could do for boys who were burning up to get into the navy. I found a list of over five hundred who were waiting to be' taken in, and they were all number one. When I think of these young men who have gone to sea, some of them when they return not looking as young as they did when they went away, it proves to me the words of the minister, that these young men are going all-out to serve their God and their country in a way that will do credit to Canada, their home, and to their city centres.
I would ask the minister if he has any good reason for the statement he made that it was a good thing to call mine-sweepers or corvettes after cities. Is there any reason apart from the kindness of the people in the local centres in helping to equip these corvettes? I would ask the minister also whether the men who are working so faithfully in the shipyards get holidays with pay, because the Minister of Munitions and Supply assured us that workers all over Canada would get holidays with pay, and I find in the records of the labour department that workers in Canada during the past year have been receiving such treatment.
Another question I would ask the minister is whether we shall have in the near future a fully equipped ship so that these boys will get the best training before they leave the head of the lakes. I know now that privately owned boats and, I suppose, boats belonging to the board of transport are used as training vessels, but we feel that we are as good as Halifax or Vancouver or any other centre in Canada, and we think that even though we are a big fresh water lake we have a right to have a training ship second to none in Canada.
I must pay my tribute to the minister. I am very proud of him, although he has more Scotch blood in his veins than Irish. He is doing a good job and I say to him, "Stick to your job and God bless you, boy."


Angus Lewis Macdonald: My hon. friend's question was whether there was reason for calling corvettes after towns beyond the desire to capitalize, if I may put it that way, on the kindness of people. I can say to him, without going into all the reasons for the adoption of this policy, that it has proved very successful. As he knows quite well, there is a ship of war, a mine-sweeper, that is called after his town, the good ship Fort William, and there is another called after the neighbouring town of Port Arthur. He will recall particularly that about a year ago that ship distinguished itself in the Mediterranean by destroying an enemy submarine.
His second question is with regard to men working in the shipyards getting holidays with pay. He will have to take that up with the minister of munitions, because the construction of naval vessels is carried on in private yards in this country and they come under the jurisdiction of that minister.
The third question was whether they would have a fully equipped training ship at the head of the lakes where navy personnel might get training. I shall look into that matter at once, and while I doubt whether the head of the lakes is exactly on a par with Halifax, as an all year round port at any rate, it is nevertheless an important section of the country,
1336	COMMONS
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has given a large number of excellent recruits to the navy, and has a very fine naval division at Port Arthur and Fort William. My hon. friend knows that we are building a permanent home for that division, and I hope that we shall find it possible to give the area there the training ship for which he has asked.


Liguori Lacombe: Mr. Chairman, the resolution reads:
1. That sums not exceeding $3,650,000,000 be granted to His Majesty towards defraying any expenses or making advances or loans that may be incurred or granted by or under the authority of the governor in council during the year ending March 31, 1945, for-
(a)	the security, defence, peace, order and welfare of Canada;
(b)	the conduct of naval, military and air operations in or beyond Canada;
(e) promoting the continuance of trade, industry ar.d business communications, whether by means of insurance or indemnity against war risk or in any other manner whatsoever.


Liguori Lacombe: Mr. Chairman, while we are discussing the estimates of the hon. Minister for Naval Services (Mr. Macdonald), I recall the loss of our ships and sailors torpedoed right in the St. Lawrence river. It- was with amazement that our people heard of these naval calamities. They wondered anxiously if our country were adequately protected, and rightly so. Why is it that our air force, which according to the hon. Minister of National Defence for Air (Mr. Power) is so mighty, could not defend our navy and our crews against such onslaughts? Yet, we had warned the government that it was necessary to defend our own soil first. After all the money that was spent in this unrestrained participation in war, after all the sacrifices made by the Canadian people, they were entitled to the protection of their,navy, of their sailors.and of the sea coasts as well. In spite of all this, the government asks us once again to vote S3,650,000,000 for the defence of Canada, the conduct of naval, military and air operations both inside and out of Canada.
During 1943, the Royal Canadian Navy assumed unprecedented responsibilities. It increased to a great extent its responsibilities and its strength both in men and ships. Not only in the north Atlantic did it convoy merchantmen and transports laden with war material, troops and supplies, for its scale of operations has now become world-wide. It has faced the enemy everywhere, in the Mediterranean, in the Aleutians. Our navy and our sailors were sighted on the African and on the Sicilian coasts, just as they were seen in the Pacific. The fact that we were present in so many operational theatres resulted in the heavy disasters we sustained in men, equipment and shipping.
Mr. A. L. Macdonald.]
The destroyer, St. Croix was a total loss, engulfing in the Atlantic 147 of the crew. Two of our corvettes were sunk in the Mediterranean, the Weybum and the Louisburg after the destroyers Fraser, Margaree and St. Croix had gone to the bottom of the sea. The Levis, Windflower, Spikenard, Charlottetown, Wey-burn and Louisburg, all of them corvettes, are gone forever, just as the patrol ships Bras-d'Or, Otter and Raccoon. With these ships, 954 sailors were lost, 177 wounded, not to mention the prisoners of war.
Mr. Chairman, these figures are significant, if we consider that the responsibilities assumed by our navy will increase until the end of the war. And what shall we have to offer our gallant sailors after this war? Are the government prepared to demobilize 70,000 sailors in this country? Will they have suitable jobs for those young men who are every day facing the worst dangers? Because our navy, along with our army and our air force will have to be demobilized without any delay after the end of the war. We shall then no longer be in a position to keep afloat a navy that now includes over 600 ships but which may comprise over 1,000 at the time of the armistice. That will be the time for reconstruction and return to normal life. Our sailors should be returned to civilian life without any delay since neither they nor the people, overburdened with taxes, shall brook the slightest delay. Let the government take at this time whatever action may be necessary to effect a demobilization which will have to keep up with the rapid changes occurring in the industrial, agricultural, scientific, social and economic fields. Governments will then no longer have control over events whose irresistible force will compel them to act without delay and without question.
One last remark and I shall be through. Since we are discussing war estimates I think I may appropriately remind parliament of the appeal made by His Eminence the cardinal as well as by the archbishops and bishops of Canada urging the governments and belligerents to preserve Rome from destruction. No Christian and civilized nation should disregard such an appeal. Civilian and military authorities can find ways of avoiding a catastrophe which history would stigmatize. The noble names of Christianity and civilization hold a prominent place in the war aims of the united nations. Let the allies spare the eternal city and they will thus achieve the greatest stride toward victory.
(Text) Mr. GRAYDON: Mr. Chairman, I desire to avail myself of this opportunity, not to make an extended address with respect to

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naval affairs but rather to ask the minister one or two questions which I think are germane to the matter now under discussion. Before doing so, however, I should like as leader of the opposition to pay my tribute to the gallantry, the heroism, the unfailing and self-sacrificing service of the officers and ratings of the Canadian navy. I think every Canadian must swell with pride when he contemplates the growth of the navy during this period of war and its unexcelled exploits in the fields in which it is operating. It is no exaggeration to say that the officers and ratings of the Canadian navy have lived up to the very best of Canadian traditions. It must be a matter of great pride to every person in Canada to follow the account given by the minister of what our navy has meant to us in a time of extreme danger and great peril to our nation and those who are fighting with us.
I wish, however, to direct the attention of the committee to one omission on the part of the minister in his statement, an omission I think he ought to make good now that it is drawn to his attention. No reference was made by the minister to very significant and far-reaching changes in the top-ranking officials of the navy. Since the war appropriations relating to his department were up for discussion a year ago, in fact fairly recently, the vice-admiral of the Canadian navy has been transferred to other work in London and his place here has been taken by Rear Admiral Jones. I think the circumstances surrounding those changes, a general description of what they mean, and the reasons underlying them, are matters which the minister will want to communicate to the committee at the very earliest opportunity, and I ask and invite him to do so.
There is another matter I should like to bring to his attention, though perhaps more properly it might come under the first item of his estimates, covering civil salaries and wages. I would ask the minister, as I asked the ministers representing the other two branches of the armed forces while their estimates were before the committee, to indicate why in the naval service the Wrens, who have such a high reputation in Canada, should not receive equal pay for equal work. I believe this question has engaged the interest and concern of many people, and in due course I hope the minister will be able to give us some answer and some explanation in that regard. I have never been quite able to understand why that situation should exist, though the minister may be able to explain it. The answers I received from the other two ministers were far from convincing, when I 100-85
asked why a member of the C.WA.C. should receive less than a man in the army, and why a member of the women's division of the Royal Canadian Air Force should receive less than an airman. Having exhausted all other avenues in that respect, I now come to the Minister of National Defence for Naval Services (Mr. Macdonald), and I am hopeful that I may finally get a satisfactory explanation.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I am your last hope.


Gordon Graydon: Yes, it is nothing more than a hope, because I have had previous experience with the minister. I hope he will not repeat the answer that was given by his colleague the genial Minister of National Defence for Air (Mr. Power), who said that if anybody in the house could find him the money he would try to equalize the pay. It does seem to me like an excuse rather than a reason, and I hope the minister will find a better answer which will meet the public wishes more satisfactorily.
I was also wondering why the minister's statement was so general with respect to demobilization and rehabilitation. The Minister of National Defence for Air spent a considerable time during his presentation in dealing with those two matters. Some of my own close family connections are in the navy; many others correspond with me or come in contact with me from time to time, and they are concerned with the same thing that concerns members of the air force and the army. While the immediate problem of winning the war is naturally paramount in their minds, somehow they are asking themselves the questions, "What shall we do when we leave the forces? Will there be a job? Will there be security? What provision is the government making with respect to the impiortant problems that will face us?" I hope that at an appropriate time the minister will go a little deeper into these matters than he went during the course of his rather general statement. I hope he may be able to give in some detail what he, in collaboration with the other two branches of the service, is prepared to do with respect to these important and far-reaching problems which will face the members of our armed forces when the war draws to a close.
I bring these matters to the attention of the minister not for the purpose of delaying his estimates but rather for the sake of information in regard to the points I have raised.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I would ask my hon. friend to be good enough



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to give me some time to think over the second and third questions he raised, namely, the reason for not giving members of the women's service equal pay for equal work, and the request for a more definite statement on demobilization. The first reference of my hon. friend was to the fact that in my statement I did not mention certain changes in the high command of the navy. I do not think my hon. friend raised that question with the minister for air, who also made a change in his high command a few weeks before I did, but that does not matter.


Gordon Graydon: I have no objection to raising it with the minister for air if he wants to come back.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: The point is that there is nothing remarkable in that being done. It is not only the Canadian navy that makes changes in its high command. As my hon. friend knows very well, changes are frequent in England even in the highest command. In this case, as I said in a statement at the time, I came to the conclusion that the number of Canadians serving in waters near the United Kingdom and the importance of impending events in that area made it desirable that an officer of senior rank, senior to any officer we had ever sent there before, should go to London to represent us. The choice fell upon Vice-Admiral Nelles, Chief of the Naval Staff, who was succeeded by Rear Admiral Jones. That is the story in a nutshell. I do not think anything will be gained by prolonging the discussion of the matter. Changes in command are taking place all the time. As a matter of fact, the usual time for a naval officer to spend at one place is two years; he usually moves at the end of that time. Changes are not unusual, and they are not necessarily a reflection upon anyone.


Gordon Graydon: I never heard there was any reflection being cast upon any of the parties concerned with the changes mentioned, but I did think that we had not received the full story with respect to what were significant changes in the top-ranking officers of our navy. It was for that reason that I raised the question.
May I ask the minister another question which arises particularly in connection with civil salaries and wages. Some of the ministers whose work is not quite as comprehensive and laborious, perhaps not quite as important as the work entailed in the portfolio the minister now holds, have been given parliamentary assistants by the Prime Minister. At times

there have been rumours about the appointment of a parliamentary assistant to the Minister of National Defence for Naval Services. The names of some rather prominent gentlemen in the house have been mentioned from time to time, but for some reason or another the appointment has not been made. Is the minister in a position to give us any information with respect to the possibilities in that field? I am not suggesting that he should have a parliamentary assistant, but there was one candidate sitting beside him, or at least fairly close to him, during part of the debate. However, I attach no great significance to that. Can the minister tell us if the government intends to make an appointment of this kind in the future?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I suppose the Prime Minister should answer for the government. The Department of National Defence for Naval Services was slated to have a parliamentary assistant.
Air. AlacNICOL: Yrou are doing a better job without one.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: There was a great embarrassment of riches and an assistant for my department was not selected. I have not given the matter any serious attention for some months past.


Gordon Graydon: When you get one, do not get one who gets in the road.
Mr. A1ACDONALD (Kingston City): He will not get in my road for very long or I shall not have him long.


Mr. EDWARDS:: Mr. Chairman, I have no word of criticism or advice to give to the minister whose report we have listened to with so much attention and enthusiasm this afternoon. As one hon. member described himself, I am a mere landlubber who comes from a foothills city, from the highest city in Canada, from a city with the mountains behind her and the great prairies at her feet. I think I can look at these matters a little more dispassionately and broad-mindedly than those who live in the lower lands of this broad nation of ours.
My heart was thrilled with the exploits and accomplishments of the Royal Canadian Navy which were described by the minister (Mr. Macdonald) this afternoon, just as it has been in the past when I hear from the lips of a man like Stoker Fisher, the sole survivor of His Majesty's Canadian Ship St. Croix, the intimate details of his experience. He comes from the province which I have the honour to represent. When I hear from men like him

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of the exploits of our gallant seamen aboard our Canadian ships my heart goes out to the navy. The sentiments which I entertain are abroad in the land, particularly in the city of Calgary which has an active branch of the Navy League and an even more active branch of the women's auxiliary of the Navy League.
I am particularly pleased this evening-I do not know whether the announcement has been made already, but it will be made to-morrow at the latest-that plans are completed and a contract awarded for the building of the new training ship Tecumseh at Calgary.
For some time the navy cadets have been carrying on in makeshift rented premises. They lacked the proper facilities or accommodation to discharge their duties. The result was that in the years prior to the war the navy did not hold the spot in the hearts of our people that it should. It was a pleasure to me to hear from the minister words of appreciation and commendation for the magnificent contribution made to the Canadian navy by men from the prairies of western Canada. In checking over the figures I find that my native province of Alberta has done its full share in proportion to population in providing men who have done such a splendid job in convoying our soldiers across the sea and in fighting this war.
As the minister was outlining the exploits of our navy I could not help thinking of; some ancient history. The minister is to be congratulated upon having given permanent form and shape to a vision of that great Canadian statesman, Sir Wilfrid Laurier. It is regrettable to my way of thinking that he did not have his way in 1910. If he had, we would have been a "navy-conscious" nation and we would have been able to make an even greater contribution to the winning of this war.
Our navy has changed the thinking of the Canadian people. It. has broadened our vision and given us a world-wide horizon. In Calgary the people of the prairies now think of the Indian ocean, the Pacific ocean and other far corners of the earth where their men are fighting on Canadian ships. They are beginning to realize that the products of our prairies, be they grain or cattle, would pile up to surfeit us unless there were ships to carry them to distant lands and unless the sea lanes were kept open. The fact that Canada has a navy of her own, a navy built in Canada and manned by Canadians, is giving to our people a world consciousness that no other activity could possibly give.
I am also prompted to commend the minister for adopting the very fine idea which, as he said, arose in the mind of a Canadian 100-85i
naval officer, of naming Canadian ships alter Canadian cities and towns. I am proud, as are the people of Calgary, that one of our most distinguished Canadian corvettes bears the name of my own city, Calgary. The corvette Calgary, which was commissioned in 1941, has made over sixty trips across the Atlantic, has seen service in the Mediterranean, and has already been credited with helping at least in the destruction of two nazi submarines. Her latest exploit hon. members will all remember having read of in January of this year, when with two ships of the Royal Navy and a sister Canadian ship she took part in running down and destroying a submarine in mid-ocean.
The navy has done something else for us as a people, in destroying sectionalism, as evidenced by the story of this corvette Calgary. She was built in Quebec, was commanded in the first instance by Lieutenant-Commander Gerald Lancaster of the Royal Canadian Naval Reserve, of Vancouver, whn commanded her until June, 1942, when she was turned over to the command of Lieutenant-Commander H. It. Hall of the Royal Canadian Naval Volunteer Reserve, a distinguished Canadian yachtsman of Kingston, who still commands her. My information is that of the crew and officers on that ship at the present time there is not one from the province of Alberta or from the city of Calgary. Yet the people of Calgary follow with the keenest interest the exploits and accomplishments of that ship and will continue to do so simply because it bears the name of Calgary. There is an intimacy of interest akin to personal relationship which is bound to give heart and confidence to the men and officers who sail her, and at the same time it gives the people of Calgary an absorbing concern in the weal and welfare of her sailors, ho matter who they are or from where they came.
It is not to be wondered at that, since H.M.C.S. Calgary was christened by Calgary's mayor, the Navy League of Calgary, composed of patriotic citizens, has done what? The members of that branch of the Navy League have gone out and from money raised by private subscriptions have bought an excellent building, and fully equiped and manned it for the training of naval cadets. We have in Calgary, not one, but two cadet corps, the membership of which at the present time runs to nearly 500. I say that is worth w:hile in itself, and is a happy augury of the future of the navy in Canada.
In conclusion, I again wish to congratulate the minister and the department over which

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he presides upon having decided to put the navy on a permanent basis, not only on our seacoasts but across Canada. I am proud, and justly so, that the site which the city of Calgary donated to the navy is an excellent one, situated high above the city, with a grand view of the mountains and of the city and river below; and just as it is altitudinally high, so I believe that in the years to come, as at the present time, the good ship H.M.C.S. Tecumsch will maintain a position second to none in the high traditions and annals of the Canadian navy.


Mr. GAUTHIER:: Mr. Chairman, I just wish to add a few words to what the hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Gillis) said a few moments ago and to offer him my congratulations upon his fervent appeal on behalf of the men of the merchant marine. These men undergo all the risks of the sea, and with the limited means at their disposal, truly they are wonder men. Their record is not sufficiently known to the people of this country. They disappear one day; their ship is reported lost at sea, and that is about all one hears. There are very few declarations about them, if any. But they are real sailors, sailors from father to son. They do not look upon the navy or the merchant marine as an opportunity in war. They have a love of the sea in their blood, and at the age of twelve or fifteen they leave for the sea simply because they must answer its mysterious call. Their fathers did the same thing before them, and they must do it too. Some of them never come back, and except for a brief report in the newspapers their memory continues to live only among their families. The young boys, however, still look to the sea, and some day in their turn they will sail away, with their life just begun. As a matter of fact, these men do not expect reward. They love the life on their boat, and sometimes they dislike Being detained too long in any port. Their knowledge comes mostly from experience. Their endurance is extraordinary, because it is made up of fighting against the elements with limited protection and limited comforts. But they take it with a smile. They love the [DOT] sea. I believe in what I have just said, being of a lineage in which every family had one or many members who sailed the seven seas and the St. Lawrence as captains or pilots in the merchant marine. One might say that I speak for my own family. Yes and no, because since the war broke out I have lost none of my relations but many of my friends.
In November, 1942, two ships disappeared within a month's time, the Nereus and the Proteus. Three young sailors of my own town

and four of the parish next to mine disappeared with the ships. There is no news whether they were drowned or are prisoners. Their ages range from seventeen to twenty-nine. Investigations are going on, but no one really knows whether they are lost at sea or prisoners. The parents still hope; and since that loss, two members of these same families are already at sea. They answered the call.
I wanted to make these remarks in order to pay a tribute to people I know, to these humble heroes of the merchant marine, to these pillars of trade and pioneers of civilization; and I hope the minister will have a good thought for this merchant marine.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I listened with great interest to the minister and his excellent record' of the operations of the navy and the navy department during the last year. I think he did pretty good justice to the work of the navy; no one, in my opinion, could do full justice to the achievements of the men who are manning our navy and those who are guiding its destinies. I am glad that the minister intends to put on record a list of decorations which acknowledge the services of these gallant men. In passing, may I mention the honour bestowed on Surgeon-Captain Best, who with his associates is responsible for the work which has been done to improve the diet of the naval personnel. A great many people may suppose that Captain Best carries on his job entirely in an office or a laboratory, but the fact is that he has been out on these ships-


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Many times.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: He has been on all types of naval vessels and knows the needs of the men. I know him well, and the work he has done in other lines, and I think the fact that he has gone out with these ships and made these investigations should be made known to the public. His associates, also, deserve a good deal of praise for their achievements.
The hon. member for Regina (Mr. McNiven) in making his address, talked as though the naval expansion which has been going on was planned by this government. But, as was pointed out by the hon. member for Yale, the planning started away back in 1922 or 1923. To the naval board, the permanent officers of the Royal Canadian Navy, and no doubt some of the volunteer officers, should go the credit for the actual planning and preparation. The navy did it. It is not a question of governments planning for it. Probably the reason why it was not carried sooner into effect was that we did not have the

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money, but the plan was in such complete form *that as soon as the money was available we could do the job. The accomplishments of the Department of National Defence for Naval Services have been outstanding; one cannot praise too highly what has been done. I wish to give full recognition to the naval board, to the permanent force, and to the people of Canada as well, for what has been accomplished.
Since parliament last met there have been, as my leader mentioned, some changes in the high command. I understand that two additions have been made to the naval board, something which we on this side of the house have long advocated and which should have been put into effect years ago. Two members of the Royal Canadian Naval Volunteer Reserve are now on the board. Had the appointments been made earlier, a good deal of discontent would have been avoided. When one recalls that ninety-five per cent of the navy are composed of R.C.N.V.R. and R.C.N.R. personnel, and only five per cent are R.C.N. personnel, it is clear that this representation is fully justified.
I should- like to know from the minister whether the ship Toronto has yet been commissioned. Several of us were notified that it was to be launched and that we would receive an invitation to attend, but I do not think an invitation has been received by any of us, and certainly I would like to have been there. I wonder if the ship has been commissioned.
I was interested to hear that, of the 32,000 persons in the navy-does that include both men and women?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Yes.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: -so large a number come from Ontario. It might be interesting to find out how many of these are from the city of Toronto itself. I imagine it is a goodly number. For many years the city of Toronto, from which I come, has been more navy-minded than any other city in the dominion. Great influence has been brought to bear for the success of the Navy League and the encouragement of the sea cadet movement. I believe there is reason for that. The lads around Toronto 'have an opportunity of being on the water a good deal; they get used to boats. The experience they obtain on small boats on Georgian bay makes them accustomed to the water. Besides that, there are the yacht clubs which I have mentioned before. The Royal Canadian Yacht Club deserves a great deal of credit.for the part it has played in providing officers and men for the navy. I know a great number of boys, brave
sons of members of that club, are in the navy. Then there is the Navy League, those men who have taken such an interest in the sea cadet corps. There is Mr. Band of Toronto, and there are several other members whom I cannot think of at the moment who deserve a great deal of credit for what they have done.
The minister said something about the education that these lads receive. I believe the education they get at these schools is very good; I have been told so, and I do not see how it could be otherwise, when you have fellows like Ketchum-I do not know his rank-


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Commander.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: -and Bonnyeastle. These are two chaps who have been brought up in what we call our semi-private or public schools-Upper Canada college in one case, and the other, St. Andrew's college. They are very fine types of men and the schools could not be anything but good.
The hon. member for Vancouver North (Mr. Sinclair) said a few words about the Royal Navy. Many hon. gentlemen in days gone by have spoken about our being a colony, and have stood up for our rights and talked about not helping Great Britain or worrying much about the empire. I wonder where Canada would be if it had not been for the Royal Navy. Where would Canada's navy be but for the Royal Navy? Where would we have gained the experience necessary to build up our own navy had it not been for the Royal Navy? The planning that was done was done with the assistance of the Royal Navy. Where would we be if it had not been for the Royal Navy, I repeat? In days to come, when the war is over, I hope hon. gentlemen will keep in mind the words spoken by the hon. member for Vancouver North this afternoon in this house with reference to the Royal Navy. Then perhaps they will think a little more about our place in the commonwealth-absolutely independent, it is perfectly true, but ready to go to work for any of the members of that commonwealth.
The achievements of our own navy have been excellent. The minister states that forty per cent of the convoys that have gone across the ocean are attributable to our navy. That is a great accomplishment, but we would not have been able to do that had it not been for the Royal Navy. We should keep that in mind.
While talking about the Royal Navy I would ask a question in connection with Canadians who joined up with the Royal Navy in the early part of the war. I should like to know what their position will be, as far as pension

War Appropriation-Naval Services
rights are concerned, when the war is over. I understand that the boys of the Royal Air Force who are Canadians will have pension rights under our Canadian pension scheme.
One word further in connection with rehabilitation and I am through. My leader mentioned this matter a little while ago, and we have heard references to the subject, as to wrhat we are going to do. The speech from the throne outlined a considerable programme of what was to happen this session, but we have not got very far to date. We have one piece of legislation in bill No. 7, with reference to the industrial development bank, but we have nothing else. A good deal has been said, however, about rehabilitation, and committees have been working on it. I do not know how they are getting on, but there are no bills that we know of. We ought to be working at them, discussing something concrete, instead of something nebulous and vapourous. When the minister has an opportunity, perhaps he has plans that he can tell us about for these lads when the war is over, from the point of view of their rehabilitation. There is no use in just talking about these things. What we need is something definite. The boys in the navy to-day are not interested in mere talk about all these matters; they want to know what the actual plans are and what sort of legislation there will be.
May I conclude with this observation. I cannot say anything too highly in praise of the navy for what they have done for us in this terrible struggle. They are a fine bunch of boys. I know many of them. I will not mention any names, but many of my friends have boys in the Canadian navy and in the Royal Navy as well. Their courage is magnificent, and they are certainly living up to the old traditions of the British navy in this war.


James Ewen Matthews: I wish to join briefly with those who have already made favourable comments upon the admirable speech given to us this afternoon by the Minister of National Defence for Naval Services (Mr. Macdonald). To me it was a speech replete witu information and of absorbing interest. I suppose the same remarks might be made to apply to all the succeeding speeches, because we have certainly had several very fine addresses.
When the minister was speaking, my mind ran back a good many years to the time when I was at school. We boys then were thrilled by the traditions of the British navy that had come down to us in story and in song. As the minister dwelt upon the recital of the achievements of our present navy I could
LMr. Douglas G. Ross.]
visualize millions of young Canadians, twenty-five, fifty and a hundred years from now, thrilled as we of an older generation were by that enthralling story, and I could think of the pardonable pride those millions will then take in the achievements of our naval forces of Canada to-day.
Perhaps I was more interested in the minister's speech by reason of the fact that not long ago the son of our next-door neighbour arrived home as one of the victims of a ship that had been torpedoed. He had spent nineteen hours in the chilling waters where his ship went down. He was a young man, one of the most perfect specimens of young manhood I have ever seen, for otherwise he could not have stood it. He came home a nervous wreck. Day after day and night after night he could hear the agonized shrieks of his comrades. He could still see their forms sinking into the surging waters.
But I did not rise to-night to speak so much of that as to pay a few words of commendation to the organization known as the sea cadets. I do this particularly in view of the fact that only about two months ago I received an invitation, which I gladly accepted, to witness the cadet organization in Brandon going through part of their training. I had the privilege at that time of addressing those cadets from the bridge of their training quarters. I had the unique privilege of reading to them a telegram of congratulation that their commander had received from the minister. It was an inspiring telegram, and I wish to tell the minister here and now how greatly those cadets appreciated it. I found at that time Lieutenant-Commander G. P. Woodluck and his staff of assisting officers zealously and with great success training those boys along praiseworthy lines. I felt that here was a group of men who were refraining from the usual recreational evenings of a type enjoyed by many others, who were devoting themselves to the training of boys in the ways of gallantry and gentlemanly citizenship. I can apply the same remarks to the air cadets and the army cadets, whose officers deserve our recognition and our warmest gratitude. They, too, are doing a great work in their own way. They are doing it voluntarily and unobtrusively, but nonetheless effectively. I feel it is due to them to place upon Hansard some reference to the devotion to duty that those officers are exercising in many part of Canada.


Mr. CARDIFF:: Mr. Chairman, I have no intention of eulogizing the minister, for that has already been done this afternoon; neither do I wish to detract from anything that has been said. We all know that the war has

War Appropriation-Naval Services
been brought to the point where it now is, through the efforts of all of the people of the country and not through the efforts of any one man. While the Canadian navy has expanded greatly since the war began, I wish to point out to the minister that if any further expansion takes place, we have in the county of Huron a harbour in which corvettes and smaller craft can be built very nicely. Perhaps not many in this committee know very much about it, because nobody has told them anything about it. The harbour at Goderich accommodates large 'grain boats. I think more grain comes into that harbour than into any other harbour on the great lakes. I believe that the county of Huron buys more western feed grain than any other county in Ontario. With very little expense I think that harbour could be utilized for building corvettes and smaller craft. In Huron we have contributed many men to the Canadian navy. I should like to impress upon the minister that if at any future time further expansion is thought of, not to forget that we have a harbour in the county of Huron and that we would be glad to build more ships for the navy.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I have a few questions I should like to ask the minister. I do not know whether they come under this item or not, but I shall ask them anyway. My. first question ljas to do with the naval surplus disposal committee set up by the department. Order No. 3444 has this to say:
Once an article has been reported as surplus no disposal action is to be taken without instructions from the chairman of the naval surplus disposal committee, naval service headquarters. Responsibility for safe-keeping, et cetera, of the item should remain with the officers presently charged with such responsibility until specific orders as to disposal are received and actually completed by him.
I should like the minister to tell us just how that committee is set up. There are a number of clauses in that order, but it does not say whether the goods are to be put up for tender or not. I think we should know just how they are disposed of and whether the different committees set up in the different ports, such as Halifax and other places, dispose of the goods after word is received from Ottawa, without tenders being called for.
I believe my next question comes under this item. In 1940 a friend of mine tried to enlist in the navy and was turned down. I do not know just what the trouble was, but in December of last year he received his call-up for the army. The bon. member for Cape
Breton South (Mr. Gillis) mentioned a similar case to-night. This boy has been called up for the army. In fact he is in the army. He is in as a man who has been conscripted. He feels hurt because he wanted to get into the navy. He feels he should have been accepted in the navy as a volunteer. If the army can take him, surely the navy could. I think there should be some way in which these boys could be checked a little differently by the medical officers.
The minister has not told us how many new civilians have been taken on since the last item went through last year. The item is up about $400,000.


Gordon Graydon: May I ask the minister one question? If he cannot answer it now, he may be able to answer it to-morrow if we continue with this order of business. Who are paid the civil salaries and how many people receive them? What do the salaries cover? Before the item carries, I think that information should be available to the committee.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I can tell my hon. friend that in a moment. Civil salaries cover 4,715 civil servants who are employed at naval service headquarters, naval dockyards, shore establishments in Canada, the United States, Newfoundland and the United Kingdom.
The hon. member for Peterborough West wanted to know how many we proposed to take on under this item during the next year. We estimate that the number to be taken on in the next year will be 567.
Item stands.
Progress reported.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Friday, March 10, 1944