1944-05-19

PRIVILEGE-MR. COLDWELL REFERENCE TO REMARKS OF MR. REID IN DEBATE ON MAY 16

Mr. M. J. COLDWELL (Rosetown-Biggar):: On Tuesday afternoon, at page 2852 of Hansard, the hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Reid) made this statement:
I said that I had no direct proof about those three papers-[DOT]
That is, the Province, the News-Herald and the Sun.
*-but that I did have some proof about the Fraser valley. That is the record and the hon. member knows it. He endeavoured by reading the record to leave the inference that I had deliberately lied in the House of Commons.
I may say I did not do that.
He just cannot get away with that. He has got away with a lot, but he is not going to get away with anything of that kind as long as I have breath in my body.
That was a reflection upon me, Mr. Speaker. I now have a telegram from Coquitlam, British Columbia, addressed to myself, reading as follows:
Personal check-up with publishers shows no papers in Fraser valley federal constituency were threatened as Tom Reid suggests. Coquitlam Herald, Haney Gazette, Agassiz Advance, Mission Record, Chilliwack Progress, Abbotsford News. Use information as you desire.
That is signed by George W. Shelldrake, of Haney, British Columbia, who is on the staff of the Valley Press Publishers. The News-Herald in an editorial of May 15, 1944 states:
In that connection it should be said that at no time has this newspaper been officially approached by the C.C.F. party along the line indicated.


Mr. THOMAS REID (New Westminster):: I have not one word to take back, Mr. Speaker. I stand by every word I said, and I do not propose to retract anything. I have confidence that those who have known me longest will realize and believe that what I said was true.


Thomas Reid: Mr. Speaker, I rise to a question of privilege. When the house opened this afternoon the leader of the C.C.F. read a telegram he had received from Vancouver from a man named Shelldrake, who, I understand, signs himself as C.C.F. organizer for the Fraser Valley. I rise particularly on this occasion because I hold before me .a copy of the Vancouver News-Herald of Saturday, May 13, in which this newspaper recites what I had said in the House of Commons; and here is the statement it makes:
The management of the News-Herald has not been officially approached on the subject by the C.C.F. party, but a number of subscribers who said they were adherents of the party have telephoned and stated they would cancel their subscriptions unless a more favourable attitude toward the C.C.F. party was adopted.


Major James William Coldwell: Mr. Speaker, apparently
this paper has written two articles.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Major James William Coldwell: Just a moment; the article from which I quoted did not contain that.


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: This is news.


Thomas Reid: This is the News-Herald. This is one of the papers I mentioned, and this article substantiates the statement I made in the House of Commons.


Major James William Coldwell: The only paper I had on Tuesday was the Vancouver Province.


Thomas Reid: I hope you keep up the
argument.



RAILWAY COMMITTEE

[Stage Direction]
First report of standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.-Mr. Dupuis.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Acting Secretary of State for External Affairs): On behalf of the Secretary of State for External Affairs I wish to take this opportunity to inform the house with deep regret of a shocking incident involving the death of six officers of the Royal Canadian Air Force who were prisoners of war in Germany, at a camp near Dresden, Stalag Luft III. The following statement was made

War Policy
in the British House of Commons this morning by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Mr. Eden.
I deeply regret to have to tell the house that his majesty's government have received information from the protecting power that forty-seven air force offices of the Royal Air Force and of the Royal Canadian, Australian, New ' Zealand and South African air forces have been shot by the Germans after a mass escape from Stalag Luft III.
According to the information given to a representative of the protecting power by the German authorities, in the course of a routine visit to this camp on the 17th April, seventy-six officers had escaped from Stalag Luft III on the 22nd March.
Of these seventy-six officers fifteen had been recaptured, fourteen were still at large and forty-seven had been shot, some whilst resisting arrest and some in the course of a new attempt to escape after capture.
His majesty's government are profoundly shocked at this news and have urgently requested the protecting power to demand from the German government a full and immediate report of the circumstances in which these men met their death and an explanation of its failure to report the facts at once to the protecting power.
The names of the officers shot were furnished to the representative of the protecting power on the occasion of his visit and the next of kin have been informed.
The house will wish me to express its deep sympathy with the relatives of these most gallant men.
That is the end of Mr. Eden's statement. There are some points I wish to add. First, the next of kin of the members of the Royal Canadian Air Force who thus met their deaths have been informed, and their names have been given to the press. Second, as soon as word was received in Ottawa the Canadian government joined in the urgent request to the protecting power mentioned in Mr. Eden's statement, that a full and immediate report of the circumstances be demanded from the German government, and an explantion of the failure to report the facts at once to the protecting power. Third, I am sure I shall be expressing the feeling of the Canadian government and of this house when I say that we too are profoundly shocked at this news and that we wish to extend our deep sympathy and regret to the relatives of the brave Canadians who lost their lives in these distressing circumstances.
Mr. GORDON GRAYDON (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I join with the minister in the words of sympathy he has uttered for the next of kin who have been aggrieved as he has announced to-day. It just shows the type of people we are fighting in this war. And more than that, may I say it shows, too, in bold contrast, the difference
between the way the Germans have treated those prisoners and the way we have treated their prisoners over here.



WAR POLICY


[Stage Direction]
Mr. JEAN-FRANQOIS POULIOT (Temiscouata): Mr. Speaker, I desire to move the adjournment of the house for the following reasons:
Whereas, the Prime Minister of Canada, in his address to members of both houses of parliament, at Westminster, on May 11, 1944, declared:
Canada's war effort is a voluntary effort, . . . Our country has become increasingly proud of the fact that every fighting man from Canada serving across the seas, on the seas, and in the air is a volunteer. We can say, in very truth, that Canada's effort in this war is a voluntary effort.
Whereas, the Prime Minister of Canada, in an address delivered at Winnipeg on July 10, 1941, declared:
What has already been attempted in the way of reviving that issue (of conscription) at this time makes only too clear the advantage that might have been taken of a lengthy absence on my part from Canada, to force the issue into the arena of party strife.
How dire the consequences to our national unity this might have proved none can say.
Whereas, on April 27, 1944, two members of parliament asked for information on the orders of the day about the pressure to induce or coerce the personnel of various units to enlist for overseas service in the absence of the Prime Minister from Canada;
Whereas, the following day, a similar question was put by another member of parliament;
Whereas, in both instances the acting leader of the government did commit himself in his answer;
Whereas, according to a dispatch of the Canadian Press of April 27, 1944, Brigadier W. H. S. Macklin blamed the draftees who had not volunteered, and did not allow them to take part in a victory loan parade;
Whereas, the pressure and intimidation exercised by commanding officers at the Vernon, British Columbia, training centre to coerce the draftees to enlist for overseas service have been such that the city council of Quebec passed a resolution of protest, on May 12, in order that the voluntary policy expounded by the Prime Minister of Canada at Westminster should be carried on even during his absence from Canada;
I ask leave to move the adjournment of the house, under standing order 31, for the pur-
War Policy
[Stage Direction]
pose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, that the voluntary war policy of the government, as expounded and defined by the Prime Minister of Canada at Westminster, shall be carried on.
Mr. SPEAKER:: The hon. member gave me a copy of the motion before I came to the house, I have not had sufficient time to look through Hansard to ascertain what may have happened in connection with this subject now brought before the house by the hon. member's motion. However, standing order 31 provides in subsection 6(c) that-
The motion must not revive discussion on a matter which has been discussed in the same session.
I rely upon my memory as to what happened in that connection, and I have recollection of many occasions upon which this matter, now placed before the house by the hon, member, has been discussed by the house.
Subsection 6(d), as found at page 64 of Beauchesne's Third Edition, states:
The motion must not anticipate a matter which has been previously appointed for consideration by the house, or with reference to which a notice of motion has been previously given and not withdrawn.
In the proceedings before the house there is on the order paper an order which has been the subject of discussion since March, namely, a resolution to introduce a measure to provide sums of money for the security, defence, peace, order and welfare of Canada. The subject now before us might well be discussed under that measure. My recollection is that it has been discussed in the house; but whether it has or has not, the fact remains that there is a resolution before the house which at a later stage will be transformed into a bill. The subject matter of the motion now made by the hon. member could well be discussed either on second reading of the bill which would follow that resolution, or in committee of the whole.
But my thought is that I should try to bring to the consciousness of the house the fact that a motion such as this does not seem to me to be covered at all by standing order 31.
I would point out that that standing order provides for the discussion of a matter of "urgent public importance". This is what we find in paragraph ISO as it appears at page 78 of Beauchesne's Third Edition, respecting the practice in the British House of Commons:
Standing order 10 of the United Kingdom House in force since 1882, also provides that a member may propose the adjournment of the house "for the purpose of discussing a matter of urgent public importance." On the 13th of April, 1894, a member asked leave to make that motion to discuss "the neglect of the government
LMr. Pouliot.l
to take measures for the relief of agricultural depression during the present session." As forty members rose in support of the motion, debate was alloAved, but on its conclusion, the Speaker said: "I do not think that, under the Standing Order of 1882. a motion on a subject of this kind, having such a very wide scope, was ever Contemplated. What I think was contemplated, was an occurrence of some sudden emergency, either in home or in foreign affairs. But I do not think it was contemplated-if the-bouse will -allow me to state my views-that a question of very wide scope, which would demand legislation to deal with it in any effective manner, should be the subject of discussion on a motion for the adjournment of the house, because, if that was so, we might have repeated motions made by the opposition of the day, not so much in the direction of censoring the government for action -which had -been taken or not -taken, for bringing to notice some grievance demanding instant remedy, as in the direction of wishing to introduce legislation on some particular subject. That is not the purpose of the Standing Order of 1882, and would, I think, cut at tile root of the order."
In my view the purpose of our standing order 31 is not that contained in the proposals offered in the hon. member's motion. For that reason I rule it is not of sufficient public importance to justify the adjournment of the house.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. H. BLACKMORE (Lethbridge):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Munitions and' Supply. Has the minister received a letter dated May 16 from the -united steel workers of America at Oshawa, Ontario, asking -that he rec-onsider his proposed transfer of the shell case contract from the Pedlar plant -at Oshawa to a Montreal firm? If so, will -the minister tell the house what decision, if any, he has made? In the event the minister proceeds with his transfer proposals, will he tell -the house why? Will the minister also tell the house what precautions he is taking to safeguard -the interests of -the nearly 400 employees who stand to lose their jobs, their seniority, their homes and the advantages which they have gained through specialized training for particular kinds of work?


Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Munitions and Supply):: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member
was good enough to give me notice of his question. The situation at the Pedlar plant at Oshawa is that the plant is one of three holding contracts for the manufacture of 40-millimetre cartridge cases. A reduction in the demand for that type of cartridge case has

Selective Service
occurred, and the ordinary practice is to curtail production at the point of the greatest labour shortage, which, happens to be Oshawa.
There is a tremendous demand in that city for man-power for the Mosquito programme, which is the highest priority programme we have on hand at the moment. The Oshawa plant is not being closed, but its work is being curtailed. The men who will not be required are being transferred to the Mosquito programme in the same city. Sufficient work is left in the Pedlar plant to take care of all those workmen who do not come up to the high physical standards required in the Mosquito programme. The result is that no labour will be displaced, as far as residence is concerned, and no hardship will be suffered.
The men who will be transferred will be the more recent employees of the Pedlar plant and they will receive work at somewhat higher wages than those obtaining in the Pedlar plant. I think this answers the question. There is no transfer of any contract from Oshawa to Montreal. The interests of the employees are being completely safeguarded.



SELECTIVE SERVICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day :
Mrs. DORISE W. NIELSEN (North Bat-, tleford): Mr. Speaker, I should like, to address a question to the Minister of National Defence which is of urgent importance to the farmers of Saskatchewan. A number of farmers are receiving call-up notices to go to Regina for their medical examinations. This, of course, is quite in order. A number of these farmers will automatically receive exemptions because of their farm work, but due to the poor train service many of these men will have to spend five or six or more days away from home in order to go to Regina. At this time of year when seeding is in full progress this will cause severe hardship. Would it be possible to have the call-up of farmers in Saskatchewan postponed for two or three weeks until seeding is over? These young farmers would be able to complete their seeding operations by that time.
Hon. J. L. RALSTON (Minister of National Defence):: That is really a matter for my colleague, the Minister of Labour, to deal with as it comes under national selective service. Those men are not in the army.


Mrs. NIELSEN:: Would the Minister of Labour please give me a reply?


Hon. HUMPHREY MITCHELL (Minister of Labour):: I have been in the city only a
few minutes-I have just got off a train-but I
shall be glad to look into the question raised by my hon. friend and anything we can do will be done.


Mr. DUPUIS:: I should like to ask that the request made by the hon. member for North Battleford be applied to other provinces so far as farmer appeals are concerned.


Mr. LACOMBE:: Following the question asked hy the hon. member for North Battle-ford, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour. AVill he permit a postponement of two or three weeks in the call-up notices for medical examination of young farmers in all parts of Canada?


Humphrey Mitchell: I endeavoured to answer the question raised by the hon. member for North Battleford. As I say, I shall look into it and if anything can be done it will be done.



VICTORIA DAY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. T. L. CHURCH (Broadview):: Mr. Speaker, nearly all the municipalities in Ontario have declared May 24, Victoria day, to be a holiday. The general holiday act says that May 24 and Dominion day are public holidays. Nearly all the mayors in Ontario have issued proclamations that it is to be a holiday. Yesterday in Quebec the courts decided that Victoria day is a public holiday notwithstanding the order in council which was passed. I notice the Secretary of State is momentarily out of the chamber. I suggest that he take this as a notice of question- what is the status of public holidays-and clear up the matter later.



EMPIRE DAY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Thomas Langton Church: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Acting Prime Minister a short question which can be considered over the week-end. Next Tuesday, the day before Victoria day, is known as Empire day in the dominion. It is celebrated in all the schools of all the provinces. My suggestion is that next Tuesday the leaders pause and take a few moments to say what they might want to say regarding the spirit of Empire day and the future empire and what the dominions have done in the war, especially in view of the conference in London which closed yesterday.
3046	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Pensions and Health


James Layton Ralston: I shall make a note of what my hon. friend has said and take it into consideration. May I say that my hon. friend sent his question to me. I have not the slightest reluctance in connection with a matter of this kind, but I say to him, and I think the house will agree, that I think we can make the best contribution to the empire and the commonwealth by getting on just as fast as possible with the business of the house. I think none of us would want to take too much time off to offer what might be regarded in some quarters as lip-service, even though it would be most sincere, in view of the job that is necessary to be done in order to carry on the war.


Thomas Langton Church: A little education on what the empire is and means is badly needed right in war time in this house.



WAR APPROPRIATION BILL

[Stage Direction]
PROVISrON FOR GRANTING TO HIS MAJESTY AID FOR

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Thursday, May 18, consideration in committee of a resolution to grant to His Majesty certain sums of money for the carrying out of measures consequent upon the existence of a state of war-Mr. Ilsley-Mr. Bradette in the chair.
PENSIONS AND NATIONAL HEALTH Pensions branch-
Treatment and pension examinations-members and ex-members of the armed forces (present war), $9,000,000.
Mr. PAIR:: Mr. Chairman, questions affecting the Department of Pensions and National Health are the most important we have to consider at the present time outside of winning the war. Our men and women who are over there doing the fighting must be taken care of after they come back, and I feel that this house and Canadians as a whole will be neglecting their duty if adequate provision is not made for them.
A number of vitally important questions have been discussed in this debate, and it is not my intention to go into them in detail to-day because I think the minister realizes how important they are. I shall take just a few moments to add1 my words in support of those that were spoken yesterday on behalf of the members of our armed forces.
One of the points I wish to emphasize has to do with preenlistment conditions. We find that a number of men who are discharged from the services are not fairly dealt with because of their categorization upon discharge.

When a man goes into the army and undergoes all the examinations he has to have before he can get very far in the service, and then is discharged and put in a lower category, the government of this country should be responsible for taking care of him.
Another question that was brought up yesterday and is deserving of consideration is the setting up of health centres for restoring to health the men when returning from overseas. It has been pointed out that in eastern, central and western Canada we have those health centres. I want to say a few words here for the prairie provinces. I think most of the members realize that we have an invigorating climate in the prairie provinces that does wonders for the health of those who have been accustomed to living there, and I would urge upon the minister that he see to it that a health centre is established in at least one of the three prairie provinces.
The removal of the insurance principle from the Pension Act in 1940 is doing a grave injustice. I would strongly urge that that principle be reinstated, and, further, that it be made retroactive to the time it was taken ou* of the act-because, as was pointed out yesterday and has been repeatedly pointed out on different occasions, grave injustices have been done bo ' the men, their wives and families, because of the removal of this protection. The only reason I can see for ever taking that clause out of the act was to save money to the treasury. It has been demonstrated that we have plenty of money with which to recruit these men, to train and equip them, to feed and transport them to and from the war area, and I cannot see any valid reason why adequate pensions should not be provided for them when they return. On more than one occasion since the war broke out the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance have expropriated, if I may use that word, one of the slogans of the social crediters and told us that what is physically possible must be made financially possible. I contend that Canada can provide adequate pensions for her returned men, and if it is physically possible to do that, it is financially possible. There is another slogan: Give us the tools and we will finish the job. I think we have all the tools and all the requirements necessary to provide the things that are needed for our returned men. Let us see that the job is finished in proper fashion.


Mrs. CASSELMAN:: Mr. Chairman, the
estimates before us are of the utmost importance to the men and women in our armed forces, and through them to all of us in Canada. We have legislation that is broad

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
in its scope and splendid in its application, although there are criticisms made in which I join; nevertheless the legislation stands as very broad in its scope. But no legislation alone, no matter how good, can give to our veterans that respected place in the life of our country which we feel is their due and which we so earnestly desire that they should have. To attain that place there are two things that are beyond the reach of legislation. There must be, first, an understanding appreciation from us who remain at home, especially from those in the veteran's own family circle. That is where women have a job which no one else can do, and which no legislation can achieve.
Secondly, much depends upon the veteran's own adaptability in taking advantage of the opportunities offered to him in fitting himself again into the life of the community and of the nation. Neither of these conditions is easy to fulfil.
The soldiers, many of them, left as boys. They come back as men. Without war, their outlook would have changed during these years from adolencence to manhood. With war, they have still more far-reaching problems of readjustment, both mental and emotional. Let us never forget when dealing with individual cases that these men are fundamentally sound in their approach to life, but may need time in which to regain their civilian equilibrium. The girls they left behind them are women now and are taking a very real part in Canada's war effort, some in uniform, many in industry or on the farm, and some just continuing that tremendously important work of looking after the homes and the children. They, too, have a different outlook. It seems to me that we need all the patience we have and all the tolerance and understanding possible in making adjustments in our homes and on a national scale. I repeat that the men and women are fundamentally sound. The more quickly the returned men come back into the stream of ordinary everyday activities, of their own volition-and individually that may take a little time-the more quickly will the invisible scars of battle be healed. We honour them, men and women, and they know that we honour them. We, who are the thousands of individual citizens, must do our part to give every opportunity for readjustment. Now that, Mr. Chairman, is beyond legislation. But there is much that is within the scope of legislation. That is why I find the broad lines for reestablishment so satisfactory. Oh, I know that there are places where changes are needed. Members from all sides of the house have given advice along these lines and
the minister knows how untiringly I have taken up individual cases as well as policies with him and the members of his department. These matters are under review. Some have already been corrected, and consideration will be given to others.
But the training facilities, educational and vocational, are the best forms of reestablishment that can be given. Here is provision for the student, the artisan, the skilled worker, the labourer, the farmer, to master the tools of his trade. He will be put in a good position to carry on through the coming years and to catch up, as much as possible, with developments. I shall not take time to review all the opportunities offered. There seems to be something for almost every case.
I am particularly gratified that we have extended the principle of allowances paid for wives and children into the post-war period. Regular service dependents' living allowances are made during the training period, whether educational or vocational training is taken, and allowances are paid during the time that returns are awaited. This is of tremendous significance. It fits the income more directly to the need. It breaks down some of the resistance or disinclination to going back to school. That will not be easy, you know. It recognizes the contribution made by women and children to the war effort and to the life of the nation. That same right to allowances applies if a veteran needs hospitalization for war wounds in later years. The policy is of great importance in our progress towards raising the standard of living.
Right now may I pay tribute to the women who have taken on unusual responsibilities outside of their homes and whose work was praised by the Minister of Labour last week; also to the home makers whose work has remained much the same in raising their families and in making life happy for their men folk. Sir William Beveridge has said this:
In any measure of social policy in which regard is had to facts, the great majority of married women must be regarded as occupied on work which is vital though unpaid, without which their husbands could not do their paid work, and without w'hich the nation could not continue.
Homemakers take part just as much as office and professional workers in the life of the community. Their horizon is not limited. They are interested in public affairs. The walls of a house do not confine the mind. We claim the right to be full partners in a free country. What affects the men affects in almost equal measure the women.
The lines of Canadian policy were laid down early in the war, were altered and
3048	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
improved upon, and will be still further improved upon as the weeks go by. It is interesting to note that the United States congress is now debating some of the plans which were settled policy with us some time ago. For instance, I have here a cutting from a Philadelphia paper which contains this paragraph, under dateline Washington, May 7, 1944:
Topping the house programme ds the "G.I. Bill of Rights", passed by the senate before the Easter recess and rewritten by the house veterans committee. Debate starting Thursday is expected to centre on proposals for unemployment compensation and educational benefits for discharged men and women.
These are things we already have, in Canada.
The senate voted for 52 weeks of unemployment pay at rates varying with family status from $15 to $25; the house committee cut this to 20 weeks and set a flat compensation of $20. The committee also rewrote the education provision _ and in doing so drew the fire of educational leaders who assailed the action as a menace to educational freedom.
Thus they are taking up a line which already is our settled policy. The lines of our policy are the lines recommended at the International Labour Organization conference in Philadelphia, which I had the privilege of attending this month. This twenty-sixth session of the I.L.O. will go down in history as one of the most important discussions ever to be undertaken, by delegations from forty-one countries, representing government, employers' and workers' groups. In the historic city of Philadelphia, where the Bill of Rights was written for the American nation and where the first United States Congress held its meetings from 1780 to 1790, was written a new Philadelphia bill of rights for international justice and prosperity.
One of the ten committees there dealt with reestablishment of veterans. I am glad to say that the Canadian delegation was in agreement with almost every part of that policy. It was stated very much on the lines of our own established policy. It asked for training. It emphasized that the best reestablishment policy is the one which puts the returned man in a position to hold his own in civilian life, with training and retraining, and pay and allowances to provide for that period.
As you know, there were three groups of delegates from each country participating- government, employers and workers. Each expressed the greatest determination and anxiety to see fair play for the returned men. Sometimes they differed as to the means to be used, but the objective was the same. I wish you might have heard Mr. Tomlinson,

head of the government delegation from the United Kingdom and joint parliamentary secretary of the British ministry of labour and national service, tell what is being done there for amputation cases, for example. He said that no man need fear that he would not be given all the care humanly possible and the appliances to fit him for work again. He himself had seen men who had lost both hands and both legs, taking their part in rehabilitation exercises. I wish our minister would take the time to tell us what Canada is doing along that line. When it was suggested that a clause be deleted from the recommendations which asked that a quota of amputation cases be included in factory payrolls, it was an employer who spoke for his group and asked that the clause be left there. He said employers were anxious to give all cooperation to reestablish those disabled, that the best ones would anyway, and that by such a provision the careless employers would realize their obligation.
We are glad that at Edmonton the military hospital facilities have been extended. We are also pleased that government house may be taken over as a convalescent home. I hope the minister will tell us something more of the progress which has been made there and as to what is contemplated in the near future.
We have heard many criticisms of the policy that Canada is following, and we do want some alterations. When I was home at Easter I met with ex-servicemen, and we discussed complaints. There were many. I am taking them up with the department. They told me also that they had written to express their opinion to Mr. Woods. I have here a copy of a letter which was sent to Mr. Woods, and as that letter is in direct opposition to some of the things I have heard I would like to read it to you:
616 McLeod Building, Edmonton, Alberta,
Walter S. Woods, Esq., Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Pensions and National Health,
Ottawa, Canada.
March 31, 1944.
Dear Mr. Woods:
At the weekly meeting of this committee held on the 29th instant Mr. W. R. McLaren, welfare officer here, attended our meeting and gave our committee a most informative and interesting account of the procedure laid down by your department upon general demobilization of the armed forces and particularly regarding casualties; also as to rehabilitation.
At the close of this discussion our committee unanimously Tesolved that this letter should be written to you expressing the appreciation of our committee as to the apparent care and trouble which has.been taken by your department regarding this procedure and also to say

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
that the committee realizes that your department is keeping a very open mind to suggestions regarding discharge and rehabilitation.
With kindest personal regards, I am Yours sincerely,
S. C. S. Kerr,
Chairman,
Edmonton Ex-Service Men's Rehabilitation Committee.
That committee has on it representatives of the Amputations Association, Army and Navy Veterans Association, British Imperial Comrades, Canadian Corps Association, Canadian Legion B.E.S.L. No. 24, Canadian Legion B.E.S.L. No. 27, the Red Chevron club, and also representatives of the central committee of the women's auxiliaries in Edmonton. It is therefore, as you see, a comprehensive body.
Here is another little extract, from the Edmonton Journal, April IS, 1944, which I should read. It deals with an address given in Vermilion and is as follows:
Says Canada's War Pension Plan Best
Vermilion.-War pension system in Canada is regarded by S. C. Heckbert, provincial president of the Canadian Legion, as the "best in the world". He said so at a dinner meeting of the Legion branch here this week in celebration of Vimy, with more than 100 ex-servicemen, their wives, and members of the ladies' auxiliary present.
Recent legislation by the dominion parliament, said Mr. Heckbert, has facilitated rehabilitation of servicemen and had provided in some measure for the education of those who had dropped their own educational plans or civilian work to enlist for the war. He pointed out, however, that citizens in general have direct responsibility in facing post-war problems.
We are faced with a good many problems- new problems, such as were mentioned by the Minister of Justice this afternoon, pressing problems arising out of casualties overseas, the absence of the men overseas, and all these different things. But I was impressed at Philadelphia with how much greater problems the occupied nations face than we do. The depth and magnitude of the problems confronting these people are far beyond ours. They have our difficulties, and many more peculiar to themselves-armed enemy forces in their own country, all these atrocities and other terrible episodes of which we read. In talking, for instance, to one of the members of the delegation from Luxembourg he said, speaking of conditions in his own country, that Luxembourg has been incorporated into the German state, and that their men were being conscripted and sent to fight on the Russian front; that hundreds of their -men had fallen already, fighting side by side with the Germans against the Russians. It seems to me that that is about the bitterest touch of all-to have to fight with vour enemies
against your friends. We do not have to face such problems, thanks to the magnificent stand made in our behalf as well as theirs by our allies, and thanks also to the courage, the endurance and the heroism of our own men. We must see to it that we do all we can in the way of rehabilitation and reestablishment and carry on the policy with vigour and with understanding.


Mr. HAZEN:: A number of new and valuable suggestions in the interests of the members of our armed forces have been made during the discussion of this item by several members of the committee. I was particularly impressed by the suggestion made by the member for Vancouver South that our Pension Act be amended to include a provision similar to that contained in the British regulations, which provide, first, that it shall be presumed that a man's condition as recorded on his admission to the service was in fact his condition at that time, and second that it shall be presumed that any deterioration in a man's condition after his admission is due to his service.
These presumptions would of course be presumptions of evidence and would be rebuttable; but in my opinion they would make for justice and fair play. It happens too often that a man who is admitted to the armed services and who passes his physical and medical examinations and is qualified as A-l, on applying for pension is informed that he is suffering from a preenlistment disability, or a preenlistment ailment. Such a finding hardly makes sense, and it is a reflection, it seems to me, on the army doctors who made the examinations when he was admitted into the service.
I was interested recently in a case in which a man who had been classified as A-l afterwards contracted a disease and applied for pension. When he went before the board he was informed that his ailment was of preenlistment origin. He went before a second board and that- board said that his ailment was not of preenlistment origin but had developed during his service, though not in the course of his duty. He then went before the appeal court and they granted him a pension. If our act contained a provision similar to the British regulations I do not think that inconsistent findings of this kind would have been made. An amendment such as is proposed would clarify the procedure. It would help the board to carry on its work and make its findings and would assist members of the armed forces, who are obliged to apply for pensions, to obtain those pensions when they
3050	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
are entitled to them. I would urge upon the minister that he accept the suggestion of the member for Vancouver South and recommend that this provision of the British regulations be inserted in our Pension Act.


Mr. NOSEWORTHY:: At the risk of tiring the committee by repeating what has already been said, I wish to refer for a few moments again to Christie street hospital. I do so because that institution is of vital importance to a large number of my constituents, those who returned from the last war and families of those who are serving in this one.
Yesterday a minor attempt was made in the house to determine which of the two older political parties was responsible for Christie street hospital being where and what it is. I submit that it is no longer a question of party responsibility and that nothing can be gained by attempting to assign that responsibility to one party or the other. The fact is that that hospital to-day, notwithstanding all the improvement that has been introduced, notwithstanding the excellent quality of help and the calibre and ability of the medical men who are serving there, remains a disgrace to this government and to every former government that has had any part in maintaining it where it is. The choice of the hospital in the first place and the continuance of it now, as well as the attempt to make it apparently a permanent hospital, does no credit to any government or to any political party. In my opinion it shows a callous disregard of the welfare of the personnel of our armed forces who are unfortunate enough to require hospital treatment.
No amount of money, no amount of improvement, no amount of devotion on the part of the employees, no amount of skill on the part of the doctors, can ever make that hospital a satisfactory one for the returned men so long as it remains where it is to-day. The only way in which it can be made satisfactory, standing where it does, would be by the introduction of an enormous clearance scheme which would move the main line of the Canadian Pacific Railway tracks, which would move the steel yard situated right across the road, and which would move the factories situated within a few feet of the hospital.


Mr. MacNICOL:: And still there would not be a park at hand.


Joseph William Noseworthy: Unless homes and other buildings were demolished and parks created there would be no park space for the patients in the hospital. As has already been 6tated, the hospital is situated on a factory

site. As a matter of fact, the old original hospital was I believe a biscuit factory at the time it was taken over. It is situated seventy-five feet from the right of way of a through freight line of the Canadian Pacific. It is situated beside a number of sidings and switches, and it is immediately across the street from steel yards where cranes and donkey engines are operating all day long, and all night long as well, with the aid of searchlights.
The wards are overlooked on two sides by a factory and a warehouse and on a third by this steel yard. The building, originally a factory building, is a fire trap. Any visitor to the hospital can discover that wooden floors were originally laid on the steel beams. As other members have pointed out, there is much in the building that is easily destructible by fire. Because of the noise, the sickest and most helpless patients are usually located on the top storey of the building, and if there were ever a fire in that building considerable difficulty would be experienced in getting many of these helpless patients down from the top floor.
I cannot understand, nor can anyone who has any connection with that hospital understand, why that building was ever retained as a military hospital. I am confident that the public served by it, both military and civilian, would have supported the government wholeheartedly if it had demolished the building and used the funds that have been expended from time to time to extend and improve it to build another hospital in a more suitable place. Of course the minister has given us various explanations from time to time for not having followed that procedure. Once he blamed it on the difficulty of getting building material, a matter which 1m said was not under the control of the Canadian government alone but which concerned the United States government as well. I do not believe anyone in this country will accept that as a reasonable excuse for not having taken steps to provide new hospital accommodation early in this war, when the government must have known that large numbers of men would be brought back here for treatment. I say this because I do not think we can blame the United States people, the United States government or anyone other than our own government.
The contrast between the situation in the United States and the situation in regard to Christie Street hospital is very clearly brought out by an excerpt from the "Journal of the American Medical Association" dated October 30, 1943, and an excerpt from the Toronto

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
Telegram dated December 14, 1943, both reprinted in the News of December 18, 1943. The quotation from the United States publication is as follows:
The Schick general hospital, formally opened on October 7, is located three miles north of Clinton, Iowa. It has a capacity of 1,514 beds and 103 separate structures. The grounds consist of 89-6 acres of land. There are a chapel, laundry, post exchange, post office, ambulance service, recreational facilities and air conditioned operating rooms. Prior to the formal opening there were 2,687 patients admitted, of whom 674 were operated on. The first patient was admitted on February 15, 1943. . . . On the day of the opening there were 1,175 patients in the hospital, representing every overseas theatre of operation. The allotment of nurses is 120 and of enlisted men 512. These men are being trained as operating room, X-ray and laboratory technicians, as well as ward attendants. The project represents an investment of more than $6,000,000.
That is a report on the treatment given United States soldiers by the government of that country, fourteen months after the United States entered the war. The article reprinted from the Telegram is as follows:
Instructions have been received from Doctor R. E. Wodehouse, deputy minister of pensions and national health, ordering the whole administration staff of Christie Street hospital, numbering 165, to find other quarters at the earliest possible date, so that the hospital ground floor can be made ready for casualties returning from Sicily and Italy.
The ground floor will accommodate 140 beds, and 200 others will be placed in one-storey huts to be erected on the hospital grounds immediately.
That was four years and three months after Canada went to war. I trust that when he speaks the minister will give us an account of just what is being done at Christie street hospital to-day. Apparently it is the intention of the government to retain this hospital as a permanent institution. That is regrettable, and I am sure is not the wish of the public who are served by the hospital. I trust that the minister will tell us also what progress has been made with the new hospital that is to be built at Sunnybrook. Reference has been made already to the delay in this connection. Possibly the minister will be able to give us some good news; perhaps plans have progressed much further than would be indicated by a visit to the proposed site of the hospital. Certainly we should be pleased to hear that steps are being taken to facilitate the construction of this new institution.
I support the suggestion already made that it is time the Pension Act and the regulations under it were brought before this parliament for examination and discussion. I am confident that every hon. member of this house will agree that improvements being made now, including some which were made in the order in council brought down last week, in fairnesss
to the men who served in the last war should have been made twenty years ago. I am confident that if the regulations under that act came into this house for discussion, and hon. members were free to vote as they wished, some of those regulations would be changed. I am confident there are regulations in effect to-day which would not receive the support of a majority of hon. members of this house if they could be discussed in this chamber without hon. gentlemen opposite being required to support the government.
I have brought many cases to the attention of the minister, and I want to compliment him and his officials on the way they have been dealt with. In the three sessions I have been in this house every case I have brought before the minister or any official of his department has been given prompt attention. I have found them ready at all times to investigate cases, and in every instance where regulations permitted, some relief has been provided. I am satisfied that those who are responsible for administering the act go just as far as they possibly can, under existing regulations, to relieve injustices that exist.
But the point is that there are still regulations which in many individual cases result in injustice. I am sure there is not a member of the house who has not secured for one o-r more great war veteran an alleviation of difficulties under which he or they may have been suffering, by bringing such cases to the attention of the minister or his department. That is good; but there must be vast numbers of people whose cases are not brought before the minister or his department. I suggest it should not be necessary for great war veterans or present war veterans to have to bring their cases to the attention of members of parliament to have injustices ironed out. The machinery of the government, and of this department in particular, should be such that, not all, probably, but a great number of such cases should be handled automatically.
In this connection I wish to cite one example. A young airman, after serving 210 days, was discharged while still in hospital. Under the regulations his wife and family were allowed dependents' allowance for 210 days. Incidentally he remained in hospital for that period, and is still there. When the 210 days expired about the middle of March the allowance was cut off. The wife and two children have had no income from that time. He was cared for in the hospital. Apparently the pension board had that case under review, since the man was discharged and turned over to the Department of Pensions and National Health. On Tuesday morning of this week I received a letter in reply to one I had written the minister in which I had called his atten-
3052	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
tion to this case. His letter informed me that there was nothing the department could do for the airman in question. The regulations do not permit the granting of any allowance after the expiration of the 210 days. It was pointed out that the case was before the pension board, and that until that board reached a decision nothing could be done. I then telephoned other officials, and learned that the pension board was meeting that afternoon. Those to whom I spoke were good enough to assure me that the case in question would come before the board. The next morning I received word that after reviewing the case the board had granted the wife an allowance of $68 a month. The case is settled satisfactorily.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That would be under section 11 (3), would it not?


Joseph William Noseworthy: I believe that in time the pension board would have reviewed this case. The point is, however, that this was a man who had been discharged for nearly nine months, during the last two months of which his wife and children had received no support by way of allowances. My criticism is that that sort of thing should not be possible. There should be machinery to take care of situations of the kind. I am not taking credit for securing an adjustment in the instance to which I have referred. I have no doubt the pension board would have reviewed the case at its meeting on Tuesday afternoon. Probably it was on the agenda, and would have been dealt with. But the point is that it had stood for six months without adjustment, and apparently such adjustment did not take long, once the matter was placed before the board.
Then, there are other regulations in addition to those dealing with the granting of allowances for the length of time a man has served. There is the deduction made from allowances when a veteran is in hospital-and I presume this will apply to men in the present war. Because the hospitalization charges are high, and the government incurs considerable expense on that account, when the veteran is discharged he finds that his veteran's allowance is reduced, and several months must elapse before he catches up in his account. It seems to me the cost of hospitalization should not be calculated as a part of a man's income, under the veterans' allowance legislation.
Then, of course, there are questions connected with the ceiling on earnings. I am confident that if some of those regulations came before the house they would be revised. 
I do not think there is a member representing any constituency who would want to stand by some of the regulations.
Reference has already been made to preenlistment difficulties. I have said before, and I now repeat, that I think it is about time we accepted, for pension purposes, the medical status granted a man upon enlistment. If the doctors who examine him for the army are not able to locate those difficulties, then surely it is their fault and not that of the soldier. We must consider this whole question of taking care of the men and women who serve in the forces, and must accept the necessary expenditure as a part of tire cost of war. We are not niggardly or parsimonious when it comes to buying tanks, ships, aeroplanes or any other type of equipment needed to carry on the war. But the human wreckage caused by the war is just as much a part of the cost as is the equipment used in the prosecution of the war. I believe we must take that attitude. Certainly it is to be hoped that no one returning from this war will be required over the years to suffer the injustices that thousands of those who returned from the last war have suffered.


Thomas Langton Church: For a few minutes this afternoon I should like to call the minister's attention to the hospital situation in Toronto. In doing so I do not offer any criticism of the minister, because, having seen him at Christie Street hospital last November 11, Armistice day, I believe I understand his feelings in the matter.
Several returns have been made respecting the situation at Christie street hospital. During the last war I was chairman of the hospital commission which had as members the late Thomas Bradshaw and the late Doctor Hastings, that great health officer. This commission sat during the last war and for four years following. At that time the same situation existed as exists in this war. At the present time there is a scarcity of hospital accommodation all over the north American continent. I do not know where a civilian in Toronto would go to get hospital accommodation; he might die for the lack of it at the present time.
I do not want to refer to the past, because the past is gone and there is no use crying over it. During the last war I criticized the hospital accommodation provided by the government which I supported, as well as by the present government. War conditions and lack of foresight are largely to blame for the

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
existing hospital accommodation situation in Canada. A great many mistakes have been made in connection with the treatment of soldiers. During the last war we had the flu epidemic. I remember one young man who was secretary to Sir George Bury, vice president of the Canadian Pacific. He went down to the Jesse Ketchum school for a couple of days, where they had the maiming pool to enlist, and then he was moved out to a camp. He arrived on a Monday and he was dead in ten days because of the terrible flu epidemic. He was only one of many hundreds who suffered. As a result of this they looked over the Toronto district for hospital sites. One on the lake shore road was considered, where the present Goodyear tire plant is built, but it was found to be too far out. There was no Hamilton highway at that time and the city did not own the street railway or the radial line, and doctors were then only on part time. Then the plant of the Canadian Kodak building was chosen as the site of the present Christie street hospital. It was surrounded by other factories. I represented that district in three parliaments and the hon. member for Trinity (Mr. Roebuck) and the hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol), who has done a great deal for the soldiers in that district, know the district quite well. It was decided to use that site as temporary accommodation. There was also the old base hospital closed up and vacant on Gerrard street, the old Toronto General. Some doctor members may recall that when they were students at the university. But that was not considered fit for civilians, so that I do not see why it should have been considered for soldiers. It was used temporarily and then it was decided to go on with Christie Street. That decision was opposed by the city officials and the hospital commission, but we could not do anything about it.
In two wars the city of Toronto has been very generous to the government in turning over property free of charge, and so have the school board and the university of Toronto. There is no university in Canada that has turned over more property than the university of Toronto. But the same situation still exists. I saw a train come in the other day and I saw a number of wounded men who had come back from Italy and other places. I do not know what the minister is going to do to provide accommodation for all these people.
Two or three returns have been made about Christie Street hospital. I suggest to (he minister that he make a monthly statement as soon as possible about the progress of
Sunnybrook hospital. He has made two or three statements which were very good as far as they went. I know that hospitals are not built in a day, or in a night either. It takes weeks and years to build them. As a constructive suggestion to the government I suggest that they consider erecting some temporary buildings along the waterfront in Toronto, or in the parks or exhibition grounds, as an emergency plan until the new hospital is ready. There are other buildings at the exhibition grounds, the Stanley barracks, for instance. I passed by Stanley barracks the other day and saw a building nearly twice the size of this chamber being used as a dining room for officers in that district. I am not criticizing that at all; no doubt it is needed. The horticultural building near the fountain at the exhibition grounds is a beautiful building. The 74th and 75th battalions were housed in this building during the last war and I believe it could be temporarily converted for hospital use at very small cost.
There are a number of private schools in Toronto. In the last war they took one of these schools, St. Andrew's college in Rosedale, and made it over into a hospital. Then there is the old lacrosse grounds which was carried on something like the M.A.A. in Montreal. There are a number of properties like that which the city no doubt would be willing to give to the government. I do not know about those in Rosedale, but I know the city is ready to help in providing urgent accommodation.
Since last session the government have acquired a number of properties. There is one now acquired at Scarborough, seven miles east of the Woodbine. This is a fine property on the lake front. Then there are properties on the island; the old sick children's hospital used to used. Any number of these places could be converted and could be used for at least four or five summer months in the year, if not longer, for convalescent homes. As I say, there are sites along the harbour and lake front upon which the government has spent some money and upon which the city spent on harbour development $25,000,000 or $30,000,000. There is plenty of land available, and with the equipment and construction branches the department and the army, navy and air force have, these temporary buildings could be made very comfortable until the larger policy of modern hospitals is carried out. The Toronto East general hospital was started as a city hospital by the late Doctor Hastings. It is located in the east end of the city. A wing containing 200 rooms was taken away from civilians and given over to government use.
3054	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
No doubt it was absolutely necessary and the possibility is that the government may take over the whole building.
The duty of the government is to look after its soldiers first, but something will have to be done also for the civilians. You cannot have them out on the street Many of these people are the wives, the parents and children of soldiers overseas. The Minister of Public Works made a statement the other day about Sunnybrook. I hope there will be no delay in completing this hospital. As one who has a great deal to do with the building of public buildings I know that they are not completed over night; tenders must be called for, and all this takes time.
It is said that the completion of this hospital is held up because of the difficulty in getting equipment. The board of education in Toronto are trying to build a new wing to Riverdale collegiate as well as make additions to other collegiates and schools, including Perth Avenue in the riding of the hon. member for Davenport. The school board are trying to carry out an extensive programme but they are held up because they cannot get equipment. What is the use of talking about building houses, now castles in the air, when you cannot get the necessary building equipment? You cannot get the necessary equipment for private or public hospitals.
As I say, there are a number of private schools in Toronto as well as other properties which are exempt from taxation. Some of these could be taken over by the government and used as a means of temporarily tiding over this acute hospital situation. The necessary accommodation could be provided for soldiers and civilians alike. Something must be done immediately before the winter comes along. I do not know where we are going to be with things coming along as they are.
I think a lot has been done by the minister's department in the past six months on temporary accommodation, but there does not seem to have been much progress made on Sunnybrook. The transportation commission are willing to provide street railway services as soon as the tracks are laid. They have buses now which could go right to the door of the hospital. I have been told that the men and their families do not want to be away from the city, they want to be where proper transportation is available. The minister should inform the public monthly as to what progress is being made. I suggest that he should make a monthly report. I believe I have explained this whole situation in a fair way. The municipal services, such as light, power and transportation, can be provided immediately,
(Mr. Church.]
if the government will lead the way. The province has also offered a lot of buildings but I think that still more buildings can be used.
I had not intended to make these remarks this afternoon, but I hope that a progress report will be issued by the minister. I do hope that something further may be done to bring about in the Pension Act as in 1940, a national insurance scheme or one separate entirely from the Pension Act. I hope that when the war is over we shall not have the situation we had after the last war. This is a citizens' army of our young people overseas, and when they come back we do not want them to have to go to a commercial bank for a loan and have it refused them or have someone endorse a note for a couple of hundred dollars to enable them to start up a small grocery or a small manufacturing business of their own. The Macmillan report as I read it places this function on the Bank of Canada, I believe that the first duty and function of the Bank of Canada is to see that our soldiers when they return from the front will be able to get such credit, and I hope that provision will be made accordingly. I also trust that the minister will bring in amendments to the Pension Act embodying the constructive suggestions that have been made and that provision will also be made so that a soldier can get the small amount of capital he requires to start up in business for himself.


Mr. PERLEY:: Mr. Chairman, I think you have been pretty generous in allowing this discussion to go far afield. I think that much of the discussion yesterday was out of order.
I want to associate myself with one or two of the many constructive suggestions that have been made. I refer particularly to the suggestion made by the hon. member for Vancouver South that the minister bring in amendments to the Pension Act so that the onus will not be on the returned man to make application for pension but rather on the government to prove that the man is not eligible for pension. The status of a man before his enlistment is also worthy of consideration.
A good deal has been said with regard to hospitals and hospitalization. We have heard about Christie Street hospital almost every day, and if there is any way of settling that problem to the satisfaction of some of the Toronto members I do hope that the minister will do it. The hon. member for Melfort suggested decentralization of hospitals and hospital services. I think that that too is worthy of consideration, so that when the men return they may be able to secure hospitalization in the part of the country from which they came. I think that would be well

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
worth while. Suggestions were made as to where certain health centres should be located. I am never backward in making suggestions to the minister with respect to my own bailiwick or my own part of the country. Might I remind him that at Fort Qu'Appelle there is one of the finest sanatoria in western Canada, and it is doing splendid work. It is second to none, I was going to say, in Canada. A convalescent home in the Fort Qu'Appelle district for men who do not require complete hospitalization but rather a rest home would be ideally located.
I am sure we are all anxious to do everything in our power for the returned men and appreciate our responsibility to them. I agree entirely with what the hon. member for Edmonton East said this afternoon when she spoke of the responsibility of the people at home. I think we all realize what the men will expect of us when they do return home.
I received just to-day a letter from a doctor who has been overseas four years. I shall not read it, but I wish some of the members would read this letter because it shows what is taking place in the minds of the men overseas. He says that the men hardly know what is going on in Canada now because they have been away from their homes and families for so long and have been doing nothing but training and getting ready to fight. He said that some of them were not very much concerned about Canada now, that all they were interested in is fighting and winning this war. This letter goes to prove that the men will come back in a very different frame of mind. He said that they are most interested in meeting men who have come back to Canada and then returned overseas, but he says that after hearing the story of these men they seem to be more confused than ever because of the reports they bring about the conditions back home.
The minister will recall that when the estimates of the Minister of Labour were before the committee I brought up the question of training ex-service men in schools and getting them prepared to start up in business for themselves. I trust that these schools will be continued, although some have not been successful, and some were started with a misunderstanding. I see the minister is smiling a little, but there was certainly a misunderstanding on the part of the men attending one school, as I think the minister was quite willing to admit. I think he is willing to see that justice is done to these men. It is a splendid thing to establish these schools where men can fit themselves for entering a new line of business. Many of our men went overseas when they were still young and had 100-192
never been in business. It will be difficult for them when they come back to decide what line of business they want to follow.
I am pleased to note that some of the suggestions that have been made by the members of the opposition within the last two or three years have been implemented in amendments to the Pension Act. I am glad that the minister has seen the merit of those suggestions.
I do not want to rehash what was said yesterday. The hon. member for Trinity, referring to the hon. member for Hastings-Peterborough, said that he was just threshing old straw. Personally I do not think the hon. member for Trinity would know straw if he saw it. I think the hon. member for Hastings-Peterborough made a most constructive speech and I hope that many of his suggestions will receive the consideration of the minister and be implemented, even though they may not have carried much weight with the hon. member for Trinity.
I said, Mr. Chairman, that I was going to take only five minutes, and my time has almost expired. I think a man can say as much in five or ten minutes as some say in forty minutes. We all want to get on with the business of the house, so that I shall say mo more.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Mr. Chairman, I too
shall follow the good example set this afternoon and speak very briefly. I come from a riding with more enlistments both in *the last war and this than any other riding in Canada, I was going to say, but I will say more than any other riding that I know of. The riding is settled pretty largely by old country folks who have enlisted in great numbers in this war, as they did in the last. During the last fifteen years I have had a great deal to do with bringing to the attention of the department the troubles of many returned soldiers, and I am happy to say as regards the vast majority of cases I have no complaint as to the way they were finally .treated. I did _pot get all I tried to get, or all that the men for whom I was speaking asked for, but in the great majority of cases relief was given. So that I cannot, so far as my own experience goes, find too much fault with the department. In the course of these years I have noted some points which might be considered with benefit by the department in looking after the soldiers coming back from the present war.
A number of the cases with which I was concerned had to do with soldiers who were captured and held in prison camps in Ger-

3056	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
many. I suggest that the department should make every effort, of course through neutral sources, to get particulars as to the treatment of our prisoners in German camps and the effect upon them of the conditions there, and that they should make similar observations of their own concerning German soldiers in prison camps in Canada, so that the effects of prison life on soldiers may be more exactly determined. I have had to deal with many men who were, and in my judgment are yet, suffering from prison camp life in Germany. Undoubtedly the food was not what it should have been, and coupled with it, the fear of being shot, the desire to escape, all the unpleasant elements of prison life in the last war, could not fail to have had their effects. I hope the department will make a special effort in the way of ascertaining the effects of imprisonment upon the health of soldiers who are prisoners of war.
A great number of people whose physical condition was far from perfect have enlisted in this war. In many cases I took the trouble, even prior to their enlistment, to write to the authorities advising them that this man had very flat feet, that that man was subject to bronchitis, or one thing and the other, yet these men were enlisted and classed A-l. I can never understand how a man with a disability which even the ordinary layman can see and understand can be enlisted as A-l. After serving in the army for a year or more a number have been discharged. I wonder what is their position if, having been classed as A-l, they apply for a pension. The department will have records of the particular cases which I have had to deal with, and doubtless many more, and I assume that these records will be held up to these boys if they apply for pension. There is a great deal in the contention which has already been made that anyone who passes a medical investigation one hundred per cent should become the responsibility of the government, unless, of course, he subsequently commits some misdemeanour which disentitles him to consideration.
Everyone has had something to do with soldiers who, coming back physically fit or apparently fit, have refused to apply for a pension and have later become ill. Many men with whom I am well acquainted fell sick as a consequence,_ they claimed, of war disabilities, but not having applied for or accepted a pension they were refused admission to military hospital. I think a change for the better could be made there. Any man who served in France during the last war or has been on active service in this war, if he

is discharged as one hundred per cent fit, should not be denied consideration if he later becomes ill and is not on pension. I do not believe there is a doctor living who can state positively and prove that a man upon discharge is one hundred per cent fit. If what I suggest is not in accordance with the act, there should be an amendment which will permit treatment of men of the class I have mentioned. I know many who fought in the trenches three or four years, who did not receive a pension when they returned, and who later, when ill, were refused admittance to a military hospital.
Another class of returned soldier with whom I have had a good deal to do is the imperial. In my part of Toronto, and no doubt in Victoria and Vancouver, where so many imperial soldiers went, there are many who saw long service in the British army and served during the whole of the last war. I have in -mind a man who saw service in Turkey, at the Dardanelles, in Egypt and in India. Now, having taken ill out here, he cannot go to a military hospital, nor can he obtain a pension. I believe this has been mentioned by another hon. member, and I would add my plea that the department try its best to make some reciprocal arrangement with the British government, in order that imperial soldiers who have been out here five, ten, fifteen or twenty years shall be entitled to consideration in respect of pensions and hospitalization.
I am not going to say anything critical of Christie street hospital. Other Toronto members have spoken on the subject and I can add nothing to what they have said. I know that lately some improvements have been made, and I would suggest a further one- not with the intention that the government should continue to operate the place, but as they are going to keep it for a while there is no reason why they should not improve it. The elevator service is bad, as I know because of the frequent trips I make to visit people from my riding. It is just east of my constituency; in fact it is in a riding which at one time I represented. The government should put in escalators which would go at least from the ground floor to the first floor, where half the patients are located. I have seen elevators crowded repeatedly with the relatives and friends of patients. It would be much easier for visitors and it would not cost much to install an electric escalator so that people could go from one floor to the other without the inconvenience which they experience now.

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
I compliment the department on the taking oyer of the Red Chevron. It is on a hill, surrounded by fine grounds. I do not know how many it accommodates.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Two hundred.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Well, that was a step
in the right direction. While criticizing the department as regards one hospital I will give it credit for its action in taking over the Red Chevron; it is a mark in their favour. Then, I compliment the government for taking over the hospital built by-I say "built" advisedly, because he deserves more credit for it than anybody else-the hon. member for Danforth. I do not believe it would ever have been built but for his activities. He wanted me to take part in helping him get the building going, but I had not the time. He deserves unstinted praise for' the part he has played. Just before he went away he told me that the department had been very good in taking off the hospital's hands a new wing of 200 rooms, so that there is another mark in the department's favour.
As regards Sunnybrook, after all that has been said about it, the only thing I can suggest is that the contracts be called as speedily as possible and, the work undertaken with the greatest rapidity humanly possible. If there are cases in Christie street hospital that are not in danger of dying, but that require only daily or weekly medical attention, it would be nice if they could be moved to Toronto island in the summer and brought back in the fall. There is no finer place in the world than Toronto island. It would cost little, if buildings are not available, to put up suitable tents. The military department has ample tents, because if there were a great fire in Montreal or Halifax or Hamilton or anywhere else they would quickly find the tents. That is one place where summer comfort could be given to patients in Christie Street hospital.
Recently I had to do with a soldier returning from the present war. He had been in many actions, had been under fire and had been wounded. He was not discharged at the time I met him but was home. He was away without leave on several different occasions and as a matter of fact when I went to see him he was in the clink. While in the clink he told me he felt he had been ill-treated. He had been through a great deal, and the very place that he had served in, Dunkirk, was enough to throw anyone's nerves off colour.
100-I92i
I hope every effort will be made to give these boys who are coming back from such terrible and bloody experience the most considerate and sympathetic treatment possible, and if they commit a few misdemeanours there should be some other way of dealing with them than by putting them in the clink. At any rate, I would be chary of putting these boys in the clink, for they have offered themselves as a human sacrifice on our behalf.
Lastly, I hope that those who are returning from this war will be more frequently accorded the consideration intended by this House of Commons when it wrote into the present act that the soldier should be given the benefit of the doubt. He is in many cases, but I know of a number of cases in which he has not been given the benefit of the doubt.
Perhaps I should not now mention the next matter because I might be out of order, like my hon. friend the member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) yesterday. I interjected a remark in the course of his speech. I should not have done so, perhaps, and I am sorry I did. At that time he was speaking on pensions for non-pensioned widows. All I am going to say is that I have been speaking on that subject in this house for years.


Gordon Graydon: You are the pioneer.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Perhaps I am the pioneer in that regard, but I should not say anything about the subject under this item. I am sorry I interjected the remark I did yesterday. However, the hon. member and I will both have occasion to say something about it later on under the regular estimates.


Gordon Graydon: Before the minister rises to answer some questions that have been asked on the first item, may I say that a number of the members of our party would like to have spoken, endorsing many of the remarks that have been made; but being desirous of expediting matters, and not wishing to repeat too much of what has already been said in this debate, I am rising now to put our party's position on record in a very few minutes. I simply wish to say that while there were a number of planks in the Winnipeg platform dealing with war veterans' rehabilitation, there are two in particular which I should like to record at this moment in order to indicate the stand which our party took then and which it has continued to

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
espouse. I refer to No. 4 in the war veterans' rehabilitation programme, in which our party called for:
Adequate pensions or compensation should be paid by the state on the "insurance principle" in the event of the death or disability of any man or woman serving in the armed forces. Unless death or disability results from actual misconduct, such compensation should be payable irrespective of the locality of service, and whether or not such person was engaged at the time in military duties.
May I go farther and mention one other plank in the Winnipeg platform with regard to war veterans' rehabilitation:
The Returned Soldiers' Insurance Act, or a measure similar in principle, should be made applicable to men and women discharged from service in the present war.
In addition to that, through the amplification of that programme at the annual meeting of the Progressive Conservative Association of Canada on March 3 last, certain clauses were drawn up with respect to matters which I think were properly mentionable at the time. There are three clauses in the amplified platform of ours which I should like to quote now. Two of them are short and do not come under the minister's department. I quote the first two:
That equal allowances to those received by wives should be granted by right to dependent mothers.
That in addition to an adequate clothing allowance, a generous scale of mustering-out pay should be paid to all the members of the armed forces on demobilization, based on services rendered.
The third clause comes directly within the purview of the minister's department, and it is one on which we feel keenly. Our party is prepared to battle for it because, in my opinion, it represents the kernel of the whole situation in regard to veterans' rehabilitation and the pensions problem. This appears in our record and I wish to put it on the record of the house.
That the presumption should be established that a man's condition as recorded on his admission to the service was in fact his condition at that time; and that any subsequent deterioration in his condition was due to his service. There should be no onus of proof on the claimant, and the benefit of any doubt should be given to the claimant.
In putting these clauses on the record I desire to associate those members of our party who have not spoken with the claim that is put forward in this programme.
In closing, I should like to impress this consideration upon the minister with regard to changes in the law, if one may put it in that way, which have been brought down by the minister in recent times. I suggest to

him, as has been suggested before, that laws so important as these should not be a matter simply of order in council. They should be laws passed by the parliament of Canada and not simply by the executive power. With these remarks, may I suggest to the minister that he gives heed to the many suggestions that have been made in this debate. I think he will agree that the debate has been productive of many worth-while suggestions; and I hope that in consequence, from time to time, the government will be enabled to do a better job for that branch of our citizens who are entitled to have a better job done for them than any other section of the Canadian people.


John Horne Blackmore: I assure the minister that our group has endeavoured to do what the Progressive Conservatives have done. We have tried to reduce the number of our speakers to the minimum. The sentiments expressed by the two hon. members of our group who have spoken are the sentiments of the group as a whole, and I may add that we are in hearty accord with all the ideas expressed in the excerpts read by the leader of the Progressive Conservatives, with respect to the advances that should be made in the matter of pensions and allowances for returned men. We feel that Canada has not by any means done her full duty by these men. We are not particularly blaming the Minister of Pensions and National Health, but certainly there is a lack of social services in Canada and various other advantages which on the whole have borne heavily upon many of the men who fought in the last war.
Hon. IAN A. MACKENZIE (Minister of Pensions and National Health): I find myself in the rather invidious position either of not replying to the splendid and constructive suggestions to which I have listened for nearly two days now, or of placing myself under indictment for holding up my own estimates. However, I wish to agree immediately with the leader of the opposition that this has been a fine and constructive and, on the whole, cooperative debate, and I should like to assure hon. members of all groups and parties in the house that every suggestion of a constructive nature that has been advanced during this debate will be most carefully and sympathetically reviewed not only by the minister but by the officials of the department.
Before I come to deal briefly with some of the questions which were brought up in the course of the discussion with regard to pensions, treatment and rehabilitation, I wish to say a word about the suggestions made yesterday by some hon. members in regard to matters

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
affecting the national health. The hon. member for Parkdale, the hon. member for Renfrew South, the hon. member for Portneuf and the hon. member for Medicine Hat all made what I consider valuable contributions in connection with this question. Emphasis was placed by the hon. member for Parkdale on the national menace in regard to venereal disease, and the hon. member for Renfrew South was able to point out that recently we had a national campaign, wThich I trust may have most fruitful results, to deal with this menace. The necessity of watching cases on discharge, in connection with this disease, was mentioned by the hon. member for Portneuf. I agree with the hon. member for Parkdale as to the wonderfully valuable service rendered to Canada by Colonel Williams, who happened to do his pioneering work in British Columbia. He did wonderful work for that province; since then he has done wonderful work for the dominion, and he is now becoming an international authority on this question, so that my fear is that he may be taken from us for service in larger spheres. The hon. member for Medicine Hat mentioned a recent typhoid epidemic in the west, and I can assure him that as far as the powers of the Department of Pensions and National Health go w7e shall pay very great heed to the suggestions he made yesterday.
The hon. member for Portneuf referred to the question of psychoneurosis, and mentioned one case by number. He rather conveyed the impression, if I followed him correctly, that there was a rigid bar against pensionability in cases of neurosis. I wish immediately to assure him and the committee that there is no such bar and that there never will be; that unless there is positive proof, as a result of the history of the case, that the psychoneurosis was a preenlistment condition, anyone suffering from the stresses and strains of battle would be pensionable, and that this would be the policy followed by the Canadian pension commission. I have reviewed the case to which he made reference, and without mentioning the name I find that following service in Canada and England this man was discharged on January 24, 1941, as medically unfit for further service because of anxiety neurosis. He was married, with seven dependent children. The record shows that in September, 1940, when hospitalized in England he gave a history of headaches, choking feelings and anxiety symptoms for the past seven years. He stated that the last time he felt really well was seven years ago, when a doctor told him that there was nothing serious but that he oould not do anything for him. He was returned to Canada and admitted to
Ste. Anne's hospital, where he stated that he had always been jumpy, high-strung and worried easily. Following treatment at Ste. Anne's he claimed that he was much improved and that he was practically as well as on enlistment. From a physical point of view he was reported as perfectly normal and treatment was terminated on February 7, 1941. The pension commission has ruled on first and second hearings that anxiety neurosis was preenlistment and not aggravated. When notified of the second hearing ruling on February 20, 1942, he was advised of his right to request a hearing before an appeal board of the commission. Since that time there has been no further correspondence. That may have been a very difficult case, but I wish to emphasize this, because it is most important that the impression should not go out that there is a rigid or an automatic bar against recognition of the pensionability of these neurosis cases.
During the course < f the debate another suggestion was made by the hon. member for Hastings-Peterborough and this afternoon by the hon. member for York South. In the course of their remarks they said something which I rather regretted-I will not say resented-when they called the hospital at Toronto a national disgrace. Well, Mr. Chairman, that is not a fact; it is not correct. We are now building, as hon. members know, probably the finest hospital in the dominion, but in Christie Street hospital will be found one of the ablest staffs, doctors and nurses and administrative staff, to be found anywhere in Canada. The strange thing is that patients who have been there, if they have a repetition of their disabilities, all want to go back *to the same hospital. That is well known in the department. I know the situation is not ideal; I recognize that the location is not perfect, but this was a legacy which I inherited when I took up my duties in this department. We are now improving it; we have improved it very much this last year, and we are improving it still more, because in the ordinary course of events the new hospital cannot be ready for some time yet, and Christie Street will see us over the peak. There is no intention whatever of continuing it as a permanent institution, as some hon. gentleman mentioned this afternoon.
There has been some suggestion of delay, and some good friends of mine made facetious reference to the turning of the sod last Armistice day. I am glad to assure hon. members that the architects went to work immediately after the turning of the first sod and the presentation of the token deed to the department by the city of Toronto. I want to acknowledge publicly in this house the
3060	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
generosity, graciousness and cooperation, of the city of Toronto in regard to Sunnybrook hospital. The complete plans and specifications for the first unit of 450 beds, plus service facilities for a much larger institution, will be ready so that tenders should be called for in June. On May 4 tenders were closed and on May 11 a contract was awarded to the Armstrong Construction Company of Brantford, Ontario, for the grading and preparation of the site.


Gordon Graydon: Are you sure that is not Brampton?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Well, it might equally well be the fine city so worthily represented in this house by my hon. friend the leader of the opposition. The question of policy with regard to providing new hospitalization in Toronto for returning casualties involved a finely balanced decision. There were two schools of thought. The first was that temporary accommodation in the vicinity of the established Christie Street hospital should be provided, wdiere new patients would have the benefit of the complete hospital service and equipment developed at that centre. The other school of thought believed that we should have a completely modern, new hospital on a more advantageous site. Each of these policies had its disadvantages. By 'the first we would have been investing further large sums in an admittedly unsuitable institution. By the second we incurred the risk of delay; for a new institution, equipped in all points, necessarily takes longer to provide and there was no point in establishing it in temporary huts or on a temporary basis. The second alternative had overwhelming public support, and has been adopted. Pending the development of these new facilities we have acquired the use of 200 beds in the East Toronto hospital, and we have removed a number of older veterans requiring permanent institutional care to the former Oddfellows home near Christie Street, now known as the Red Chevron, to which the hon. member for Davenport just made reference. In connection with the accommodation being provided by the East Toronto hospital I wish to express my appreciation of the cooperation of the hon. member for Dan-forth, who is now overseas.
Whatever may be said about the site and suitability of the Christie Street hospital buildings, that hospital is equipped with the most complete facilities for all-round clinical services to the sick and wounded members of our forces, and is served by the cream of the medical profession of the city of Toronto.

Having accepted the disadvantage of loss of time in getting the new hospital ready we have renovated and greatly improved the accommodation at Christie Street hospital, which must continue in use until the move into the new hospital can be made. One of the improvements is an increased provision of private and semi-private accommodation for seriously ill and post-operative cases. I think the hon. member for Hastings-Peterborough referred to that yesterday.
As evidence that, despite certain handicaps, excellent treatment is being given to the patients, I should like to read a letter received only this morning from the father of a patient recently cared for in two of our departmental hospitals mentioned in yesterday's debate, namely Camp Hill and1 Christie Street. I am referring to this letter because it happened to reach me this morning. But I am happy to say that many such letters testify to the quality of service rendered by the staff in our departmental hospitals.
This letter reads as follows:
My son has just returned to his home after a three-week stay in Philadelphia with relatives, to get some sunshine after four months in military hospitals.
May I express to you, sir, my appreciation of the way in which he was treated in the Camp Hill hospital, Halifax, the Christie Street hospital, Toronto, and in the manner in which his case was treated, under the regulations with regard to discharges.
He tells us that the food and conditions and care, and the medical attention given in the hospitals named, was without need for criticism, but rather much the reverse. For this we, his parents, are truly thankful as, owing to his severe case, he had a trying time.
So that, sir, is the situation in regard to Christie Street, and in regard to Sunnybrook.
A question was raised by one hon. member in regard to hospitalization accommodation. The answer is that as of April 17, 1944, we had operating 7,382 beds and space for 8,484 beds. We have under construction 430 additional beds, which will be operating by June. We have under construction 1,938 beds which will be operating by this autumn. We shall, therefore, enter the year 1945 with 9,750 beds operating. We have projected plans and specifications under preparation for an additional 4.214 beds which should be operating in December, 1945. We purpose providing 600 health and occupational beds in British Columbia and Ste. Anne's, for which we are still seeking a site, but which are approved in principle. This gives us a total bed capacity in 1946 of 14,600 beds, with the army operating or building a total of 15,000. We have not included in this the emergency beds which we have on hand to place in sun-rooms, and so on, if urgent for temporary periods. The combined figure would be 30,000.

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
I now wish to deal briefly with a question which has been mentioned by several hon. members, namely the insurance principle. I am now going to retrace the history of what has occurred in each country, so that every hon. member may be quite familiar with it. I wish to have on the record the situation all across the empire with respect to this insurance principle.
To take first the United Kingdom: Under amendments to the royal warrant passed in August, 1943, disability or death is accepted as due to war service if it is certified that
(a)	the disability is due to a wound, injury or disease which (i) is attributable to war services or (ii) existed before or arose during war service and has been and remains aggravated thereby; or (b) the death was due to or hastened by (i) a wound, injury or disease which was attributable to war service or (ii) the aggravation by war service of a wound, injury or disease which existed before or arose during war service.
No onus of proof is now on the claimant and the benefit of any reasonable doubt is given him. This is subsequent to what was mentioned yesterday by one hon. member. It will be seen, therefore, that while the insurance principle is technically not in effect for Great Britain, the provisions governing entitlement have been considerably broadened in favour of the applicant.
Then, with respect to the United States: The underlying principle would seem to be "line of duty" with modifications. The insurance principle does not apply there.
Then, for Australia: Disability or death must be directly attributable to having sustained a war injury. Special provision is made for tuberculosis. The insurance principle is not in force.
For New Zealand:	Provisions closely
resemble those of Canada. Pension is payable for death or disablement while on service overseas, or nevertheless attributable or aggravated by such service. When service has been in New Zealand only, the death or disablement must be actually due to service with the forces. Accidents or injuries while on leave are not pensionable. The insurance principle is not in force.
For South Africa: The insurance principle is not in force.
So that, after reviewing every single country of the commonwealth and the United States, the insurance principle as we have been advocating it here, and as we had it in Canada for the great war, is not to-day in force in any of these countries. I am not saying that because of that I am opposed to the insurance principle. It was discontinued because it was
found that certain abuses arose early in 1940, abuses which were most regrettable. A change was made at that time, and the order in council of May 21, 1940 was adopted.
Then, as was stated by the hon. member for Vancouver South, this subject was most carefully reviewed before the committee on the Pension Act which sat in 1941. The present section 11(3) was placed in the act to meet needy cases, and has been most effective, in a commendable way. Although it is not equal to full recognition of the Pension Act, it has been most effective in solving questions which could not otherwise be met.


Gordon Graydon: The minister is not
closing the door entirely, I hope.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Certainly not. The house has discussed pensions since 1920, and I like to hear the views of hon. members with respect to the question of the insurance principle. Let us remember that the Pension Act of this country was not the work of any one party, but rather was the joint effort of every part of the house. And 1 think we have built-I have said this before, and I am content that it be compared with that of Great Britain, or of the United States, or of any other part of the commonwealth-as a result of our joint effort, the finest Pension Act for any soldier in the whole world. There is no doubt about that-and I say that it has not been the work of any one party.


Gordon Graydon: The matter can still be considered?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is what the house is for.
Then, in regard to present war pensions in payments, I have some figures which I shall submit. At the present time, March 31, 1944,
there are 12,563,	with an annual	liability of
$6,487,755. The following table will show the		
total disability awards to male		members of
the forces only:	Disability	
	No.	Liability
Canada 	
1,729	673.744Outside 	
5,416	1,991,933Total..	
7,145	2,665,677The same information for dependents is as	follows:	Dependent	No.	LiabilityCanada 	
971	643,142Outside 	
3,959	2,918,425Total...	
4,930	3,561,5673062	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
The total of disability and dependent, as contained in the two preceding tables, is as follows:	[DOT]
Disability and Dependent
No. Liability
Total	 12,075	6,227,244
The difference between these figures and the grand total is represented by awards to certain special classes outside the forces.


Mr. CASTLEDEN:: What are the figures respecting the applications for pensions for injuries within Canada?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I would prefer it if my hon. friend would permit me to answer that when we reach the item.


George Hugh Castleden: All right.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I shall now discuss the question of decentralization-and I am taking these points as rapidly as I can. This question was discussed by several hon. members during the course of the debate. Staff shortages were mentioned by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre last night. These two subjects can best be considered together. On account of the war we live in a time of shortages of man-power and of commodities of all kinds. Because of these shortages we have to make the greatest possible use of what is available. That is one of the reasons why it has been necessary to concentrate hospital services for members and ex-members of the forces in a comparatively small number of large hospitals. Another reason is that in large centres of population there are assembled groups of leading specialists in all branches of medical science. We employ these specialists on part-time salary.
As a result of having our hospitals close to large centres of population we are able to obtain for sick and disabled veterans the services of the leading specialists in Canada as and when they are needed. This would be much more difficult in a large number of widely scattered small hospitals. By centralization we raise the standard of medical services. The same consideration applies to the infinite variety of specialized hospital equipment. In times of scarcity it would be wasteful and probably impracticable to attempt to set up thirty or forty fully equipped small hospitals or hospital units. But in the small number of hospitals that we have it is possible to install complete equipment.	.
With respect to the staff problem we have experienced definite shortages, and our officials and employees in many cases have to do more work than we would ordinarily ask of them in normal times. The Department of Pensions and National Health is short in its

medical establishment by seventy-three doctors, according to what I am told by our advisers. The situation, however, is not quite as bad as would have appeared from the figures correctly quoted by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre. The number of patient-days shown in the return from which he quoted includes the patients in approximately 1,320 beds in pensions department hospitals, which beds have been temporarily allocated to the armed services. These patients receive their medical attendance from service medical officers. These navy, army and air force medical officers who are in our hospitals attending to the service patients cooperate with the medical officers of my department by serving other patients who are on our own charge. The extent of this service cannot be stated statistically, but it is of material assistance.
Over and above that measure of cooperation, the armed services have placed additional medical officers at the disposal of the Department of Pensions and National Health, In numbers that vary from month to month. It is not possible to state exactly the number of service doctors thus giving full time to the department, but I am advised that thirty-seven would be a good estimate. In Camp Hill, where the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre pointed out that the number of doctors on the pensions and national health staff is actually less than it was in 1939, we have the full-time services of not less than five or six service medical officers. In Toronto this number is not less than fifteen.
The deficiency in our own staff is, therefore, largely made up by these two factors: first, the part-time services of medical officers assigned to care for service patients in pensions department hospitals and, second, the full-time services of approximately thirtv-seven service medical officers assigned to duK in pensions hospitals.
Further steps are being taken to meet the shortage of doctors by advertising positions at higher salaries than have hitherto prevailed. Yesterday the hon. member for Renfrew South spoke about the low remuneration paid to these doctors, but I may say that we now have authority to offer as high as 86,500 a year to certain types of specialists. In addition, we have been advised of the possibility that some of the older medical officers with considerable periods of service overseas may shortly be replaced by younger men in the services, and thus made available for the care of patients returned to Canada and in our hospitals.
The question of private nurses was raised by the hon. member for Hastings-Peterbor-

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
ough. Private nurses are assigned to seriously ili and post-operative cases whenever the medical officer considers it is necessary. When it is possible, nurses are selected from the hospital permanent staff, but when these are not available application is made to the nurses' registry. It is impossible to give the exact number of private nurses assigned because, when a member of the staff is placed on such duty, the incident is not necessarily a matter of record. The work is done as part of the regular duty.
I come now to a discussion of the question which was brought up, I think, by most of those who spoke yesterday, namely, the recent changes in the British regulations affecting entitlement. Several hon. gentlemen placed upon the record parts of a statement made by Sir John Anderson in London when the debate was on. The hon. member for Vancouver South read the first two paragraphs dealing with entitlement, but he overlooked the third paragraph which is vital and which relates more directly to preenlistment or A-l condition than the other two. This is from the ministry of pensions, "Changes in War Pensions", page 2, paragraph 4:
There remains to be considered the claim, "Fit for Service, Fit for Pension." This claim is inconsistent with the principle, which obtained in regard to the war of 1914-18 and has since been maintained, that there must be a causal connection between disablement and war service to enable a pension to be awarded. H.M. government reaffirms this principle and is accordingly unable to accept the claim, "Fit for Service, Fit for Pension." Its acceptance would mean that the minister of pensions would assume liability for a condition which became manifest at any time after the commencement of war service whether or not service had played a part in its onset or development. In the view of H.M. government a disablement in which war service has played no part should be dealt with under the ordinary social service provisions.
Although they have certainly broadened the provisions, according to the paragraphs mentioned yesterday by my hon. friend, they are far from admitting the claims "Fit for Service, Fit for Pension."


Mr. GREEN:: The minister must not misunderstand me; I did not advocate that.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No; it was done by another speaker. Preenlistment origin is one of the most widely discussed questions in this debate. No discharged man is denied pension on the ground that his disability was of preenlistment origin unless there is positive evidence that that is the case. In many cases brought to my personal attention, I have found, upon inquiry from the commission, that the man has himself quite frankly stated that he had suffered injury or illness of the type in question prior to 100-193
joining up. In other cases, precise hospital records have been brought to the commission's attention. There is no class of case, I am advised, in which the commission is more disposed to give the applicant the benefit of the doubt, and entitlement is denied only where the evidence is positive.
Much has been said about the careful examination given at time of enlistment. I am advised that, without disclosure of facts, no medical man can guarantee accurate diagnosis. In the medical examination at the time of enlistment, the medical man has to rely upon what can be observed by the various tests which are used and upon information from the recruit. If he withholds information or does not give truthful information, the medical officers may be misled. We all realize that it is not to a man's discredit if, in his anxiety to be of service, he refrains from disclosing some previous illness, the disclosure of which might debar him from service. It does not follow, from the view we may take of this action on the part of the recruit, that the country should undertake to provide pension for a disability which did not arise out of or even during military service.
I now wish to deal with the question raised by the hon. member for Vancouver South, that of accidents. Yesterday the hon. member referred to a statement by Sir John Anderson in the British House of Commons dealing with the policy of the British ministry of pensions as related to accidents sustained by members of the forces. Briefly, the statement was to the effect that His Majesty's government has decided that under war conditions accidents sustained, (a) whilst "walking out" in spare time; (b) whilst travelling to and from home on short pass; (c) whilst travelling to and from duty when living in accommodation privately arranged, can reasonably be regarded as attributable to service. The fourth category was accidents sustained whilst actually on leave.
In the latter cases His Majesty's government consider "the compulsions of service play no part and an accident sustained in such circumstances cannot properly be regarded as attributable to service". The Canadian pension commission advises me that with regard to members of the forces serving in Great Britain or anywhere beyond Canada the provisions of the Pension Act are more generous and provide full protection under section 11, subsection 1, of the act with respect to all such accidents. That is, accidents outside Canada.


Howard Charles Green: The British cover all accidents outside Great Britain.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The Pension Act provides two principles for

3064	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
dealing with disabilities which arise out of accidents to members of the forces in Canada.
(1)	In respect of military service, during the war with the German reich, any part of which has been rendered outside of Canada, the Pension Act provides full insurance coverage for everything that happened during that man's service. If he is involved in an accident, compensation is paid for death or disability resulting from that accident and there need be no direct service causation of the condition. He is fully protected in regard to any disability which may result from an accident unless he was on leave of absence without pay at the time the accident took place-


Howard Charles Green: Is that in Canada?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am speaking of men who have served outside Canada-or unless, during his leave of absence with pay, undertaken an occupation which was unconnected with military service and the accident had arisen during the course of that occupation.
(2)	In respect of military service which has been wholly rendered in Canada pension is awarded for disability or death resulting from an accident when the accident arose out of or was directly connected with military service.
The other clause had reference to service rendered partly in and partly out of Canada.


Howard Charles Green: That is the difference.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: While not providing full insurance coverage for all accidents that happen in Canada to members of the forces whose service is restricted to Canada only, this principle has a very broad application. While somewhat analogous to the conditions of workmen's compensation, the Canadian pension commission gives it a much broader application than the provincial workmen's compensation act and also a wider application than the United States phrase " in line of duty." It is not necessary that the injury should have been caused by some incident or occurrence peculiar only to the performance of military duty such as the discharge of a weapon or an accident while driving a military vehicle, but rather that the man should have been in the course of his service exposed to a hazard related to that service. For instance, any person engaged in games designed to improve the physique as a part of the training is entitled as of right to pension consideration for any injury so incurred.
The question of leave has been given careful consideration. A man returning from leave by an ordinary, legitimate method of transportation who suffers a fortuitous accident is undoubtedly entitled to pension consideration for

any disability resulting therefrom, as is a man who is on living-out pass who suffers a similar accident going to and from his duty from his place of dwelling by proper means. Such cases have received favourable ruling from the pension commission.
A striking example is the Almonte train wreck, in which favourable consideration as of right was given to all members of the services who were killed or injured in that accident.
Another type of case is one in which the commission recognized death by drowning where the man, although not on a regular ordered bathing parade, was bathing with a group of comrades at a place which was allotted for such purpose and to which the men were encouraged to go during the warm weather when they were not on parade. It will be observed that the basis of entitlement under this section is that the accident must have arisen out of or been directly connected with the man's military service. Each case is decided on its own merits after careful inquiry. When an accident occurs, the military authorities hold a court of inquiry, and when the man is discharged from the forces, a copy of the evidence before this court of inquiry is supplied to the pension commission and the commission decision is reached only after a careful study of all the evidence adduced at the hearing.
It is the policy of the commission to award entitlement as of right in all cases of accidents where service was a factor.
It must always be remembered, however, that an unfavourable decision under section 11 (2) does not exhaust the benefits of the Pension Act. Where a disability results from an accident which is not considered to have arisen out of or been directly connected with military service, an award of pension is made if the applicant is seriously disabled and in necessitous circumstances.


Howard Charles Green: That is only under a means test?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes. The hon. member for Cape Breton South raised a question yesterday in regard to unemployment insurance, with respect to a soldier coming back who said that he could not get benefits from unemployment insurance until he had worked for so many weeks. Under an amended procedure, arrangements have been made that discharged men, for the year following their service, will draw out-ofwork benefits from the pensions department before going to the unemployment insurance commission; this for the reason that the benefits under P.C. 7633, with family allowances, are on a much more generous scale.

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health.
Our administration facilities throughout the dominion are being expanded all the time, in order to give prompt service, and in Cape Breton, a civil service competition is now being held for a welfare officer, to be stationed at Sydney, Nova Scotia.
Questions were asked in regard to enlistments and discharges and I have a statement as follows:
Enlistments
(September, 1939, to January 31, 1944)
Navy
Men 			 81,367	
Women 			 4,534	85,901
Army		
Men 			 514,257	
Women 			 16,384	
N.R.M.A				 102,795	633,436
Air Force		
Men 			 222,517	
Women 			 22,388	244,905
Grand total 			964,242
Discharges to 31st March, 1944		
Navy		
Men 			 5,773	
Womgn			 137	5,910
Army		
Men 			 90,534	
N.R.M.A			 19,162	
Women			 3,351	113,047
Air Force		
Men			 14,143	
Women 			 1,498	15,641
Grand total 			134,598


Howard Charles Green: That is about 135,000 to the end of March.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is right, 134,598 men and women. The discharges are as follows:
Discharged as medically unfit to
31st March,	1944	
Navy		
Men		... 2,562	
Women 		.. . 41	2,603
Army		
Men 		... 68,867	
N.R.M.A		... 16,333	
Women		... 2,476	87,676
Air Force		
Men		. .. 6,913	
Women			... 427	7,340
Grand total 			97,619


Howard Charles Green: The minister's figure yesterday was wrong when he said 94,000?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes; it should have been 97,000.
The procedure in effect by the Canadian pension commission is as follows:
(a)	The proceedings of the medical board on discharge are referred by the discharge depot to the Canadian Pension commission in the district where the discharge is to be carried out.
This provides that, where indicated, pension medical examination may be carried out or be arranged for before the man proceeds to his home.
(b)	When discharge has been effected, the head office of the commission in Ottawa is notified of the date iby the service concerned and that service documents are available for pension adjudication.
(c)	When the man is discharged directly to the department for treatment pension, action is delayed until treatment has reached finality.
It will be observed that in every case the medical board on discharge on account of disability is reviewed in the first instance by the pension medical examiner in the district and then by the commission's medical advisory staff in Ottawa.
Of the total number discharged as medically unfit the following decisions have been rendered by the commission to the 29th February, 1944.
First hearings:
Men	 41,449
Women	 150
Second hearings:
Men	 4,529
Women	 15
Appeal boards:
Men	 1,900
Women	 1
Decisions other than above (special benefits provided by the act):
Men	 1,169
Women	 10
41,599
4,544
1,901
1,179
Grand total	 49,223
It will be observed that of the total of 97,619 discharged as medically unfit the commission has rendered decisions in 49,223 cases. This leaves approximately 50,000 cases for whom no decision has been rendered by the commission. However, each case has received attention. The proceedings of the medical board on discharge have first of all been reviewed by the pension medical examiner in the district and again later by the medical advisory staff of the commission in Ottawa. When the discharge disability is of a minor nature and preenlistment in origin, a formal pension decision is deferred and the case given what is termed delayed priority.


Howard Charles Green: How many of these are outstanding?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There were 50,000 regarded as hopeless at the start, but they have all been dealt with and only about 500 would be outstanding. This

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
in no way prohibits application at any time; many of these delayed priority cases have made application and the regular procedure has been instituted. This procedure has been inaugurated owing to the limitations in the medical and other staff available to the commission to cope with the large number of daily discharges.


Howard Charles Green: The effect is that there will be very few of these 50,000 eligible for pension?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is my understanding of the situation.


Howard Charles Green: How many of the other 49,000 applications have been granted?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I shall give these figures later on. I have them on another sheet.
I think I have met all the questions which were raised yesterday and to-day.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Does the minister feel able at the moment to make some reference to consideration of the case of the imperials?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes. This question is one of very great difficulty. The difficulty is this, that the War Veterans Allowance Act in Canada has been applied only to those who saw service in the main in a theatre of actual war, and Canadians who served in Canada and in England in the great war are not eligible, excepting in a small number of cases, for the benefits of the act. If it is decided by this house or by any government to give entitlement to veterans' allowances to imperial soldiers who fought in the great war, the same right cannot consistently be denied to Canadians who went overseas from Canada. That is the difficulty all through the years. If it should ever come about that the veterans' allowance act were broadened out to cover Canadians who served in England only, the difficulty would largely vanish.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The unfortunate part of that matter is that the imperial authorities have turned down flat the vast majority of imperial soldier applicants. They give them no consideration.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is in regard to veterans' allowances?


John Ritchie MacNicol: For pensions.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: In regard to pensions, of course the imperial veterans who served with the British forces in the great war would be pensionable under their legislation.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I may be wrong, but I understand that quite a number of imperial soldiers who have resided in Canada for several
[Mr. Ian Mackenzie.!
years had their applications turned over by our own department to the imperial authorities, and that the request to the British authorities on behalf of soldiers who served with the British army in the great war, and who did not take pensions, but were pensionable, was turned down flat.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Not by the Canadian government; by the British government.


Howard Charles Green: With regard to the question asked by the hon. member for Davenport, is this not the situation? He was referring to imperial war veterans who have served in a theatre of actual war, and the minister likens their case to that of Canadians who did not serve in a theatre of war. Why does the minister lump the two together and say that, because the Canadian who did not serve in a theatre of war cannot get the war veteran's allowance, the imperial veteran who did serve in a theatre of war cannot get the allowance, although he may have been in Canada for twenty-four years?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I happen to have been born in the old country, and I say it would be distinctly unfair to grant the allowance to imperial veterans who served in a theatre of war and not to Canadians who went overseas but were not allowed to serve in a theatre of war.


Howard Charles Green: Who did not serve in a theatre of war.


Mr. WRIGHT:: Are the government taking any action to recover damages from the railroad company in the case of the men who were killed or injured in the Almonte wreck?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That has not come to my attention. I shall be glad to look into it. We met all claims, but whether we recovered the money or not I do not know.


Howard Charles Green: The minister did not make
the position quite clear with regard to the question of presumptions. I wish he would correct me if I am wrong as I make my statement. As I understand it, the position in Great Britain since last summer is this: they now have in their royal warrant under which pensions can be granted this provision; it is paragraph (3), which will be found near the top of page 3 in the white paper to which both the minister and myself have referred:
(3) Where an injury or disease which has led to a member's discharge or death during war service was not noted in a medical report made on that member on the commencement of his war service, a certificate under paragraph (1) shall be given unless the evidence shows that the conditions set out in that paragraph are not fulfilled.

W'ar Appropriation-Pensions and Health
The white paper on page 1 explains just what those presumptions mean, in these words:
His .Majesty's government accepts the view that the fact that a man is accepted for service in the present war in a cetrain medical category may be taken as presumptive evidence that (a) at the time of acceptance he was fit for the kind of service demanded of a man in that medical category; and (to) in the event of his toeing subsequently discharged on medical grounds any deterioration in his health which has taken place is due to his service.
I suggest to the minister and the committee that we have no provision of that type in our Canadian pension law. We have no provision which goes that far. It is operative now in Great Britain; I believe it is necessary-under the conditions which have arisen in the present war, and I would urge upon the minister and the committee to see to it that Canada adopts those presumptions. They will help the disabled man to get a fair deal, and make it just that much easier for him to qualify for pension, and I think they are absolutely fair.
Mr. STIRLING; And they are exactly what we are asking for here.


Howard Charles Green: And as the hon. member for Yale points out, they are exactly what we have advocated in the policy of the Progressive Conservative party. Quite apart from whether this party or any other party advocates it, it is a fair provision. I think the minister will admit that we have no such provision in the present Pension Act; it could very well be added to section 62 of the .act, which is what we call the benefit-of-the-doubt section. The British also have a benefit-of-the-doubt section, but they go that one step further and establish those two presumptions in favour of the men, and I think it is the sense of the members of this house and of the people of Canada that there should be that change here. I thought Sir John Anderson put the general attitude of the people of Great Britain and the attitude which should be adopted by this house clearly when, on July 20, 1943, he used these words, found on page 717 of the British Hansard:
The treatment to be meted out to those who have made sacrifices for their country, who have lost their lives maybe, leaving dependents, or . who come back shattered by wounds or disease, is a matter which engages the public conscience, and we should not rest content with any solution whioh fails to command the support of the overwhelming mass of reasonable people.
At the present time the Canadian Pension Act does not go far enough in this respect, and I urge upon the minister that he have steps taken to amend the pension law so that those two presumptions become part of the
charter of the men who will be returning from the various fronts. Will the minister admit that we have no such provision in the Canadian Pension Act at the present time?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: In regard to the benefit of the doubt, we are about on a par now with Great Britain. In regard to the presumption mentioned by my hon. friend in the paragraph dealing with entitlement, my interpretation and my officers' interpretation of this is that the word "deterioration" here is equivalent to the provision we have had in the Canadian Pension Act with regard to aggravation. That is, we pension for the aggravation of a disability where the disability becomes increased on active service. But I would be glad to look carefully into the interpretation, and if my interpretation is not correct I shall have the matter carefully examined and see what can be done.


Howard Charles Green: I think the minister's advisers are quite wrong in that interpretation. They say that the word "deterioration" refers to an aggravation of a condition that existed before enlistment. If the minister will read the debate in the British house he will see that that was not the intention. Sir John Anderson said, at page 718:
The first presumption-I am putting this in non-technical language-is that a man's condition as recorded on his admission to the service was in fact his condition at that time. The second is that any subsequent deterioration . . .
In other words, if the man enlisted as fit. That is the type of case to which I referred.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is aggravation.


Howard Charles Green: To continue the quotation:
The second is that any subsequent deterioration in his condition was due to his service.
The minister's advisers have given him the wrong advice in regard to the interpretation of the British act, and I suggest that he should have the matter reviewed again and use his own judgment.
The other question to which I wish to refer is the . insurance principle. In that regard, again, it is the sense of the members of this house that there should at least be a return to the insurance principle so far as some of the men serving in Canada are concerned. There is not a member who has spoken against it; not one has said a word in opposition to it. Of course, the position is this. There are in Canada many men in training who have enlisted for service anywhere. They are kept here because those are the orders of the army, the navy, or the air force, as the case may be. I suggest that those men who, in

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
the eyes of the general public, are ready to serve anywhere should be covered by the insurance principle. Perhaps it should not be extended to cover men not willing to serve anywhere, but it certainly should be extended to cover these other men I have mentioned. Section 11 (3), to which the minister referred, is really a stop-gap. He has admitted that it was brought in because we disagreed in the special committee that dealt with pensions in 1941. One or two of us thought the insurance principle covering all men in our forces should be left in the act, but we were voted down by the rest of the committee, and as a final solution-it was not a compromise because we never agreed to it-this provision 11 (3) was brought in. But it contains the means test. A man can get pension only if he is very hard up. He can get that pension only if he has a serious disability as distinguished from one that might not be considered serious, and he is entirely in the hands of the commission. If they had a good breakfast this morning they may give him a pension; if they have a poor breakfast to-morrow mom ing and do not feel so well they can turn down his application. I do not say that they do this, but there is too much discretion given to the commission in such cases. There should not be a large number of cases handled under a discretionary section of this type. The man should have the right to get his pension instead of having to depend on the discretion of these commissioners-at least, where he is willing to serve anywhere and suffers his disability before he has been able to get out of the country.
The minister said that they have not the insurance principle in Great Britain. There again I think he is wrong. His advisers have given him bad advice, because in effect the insurance principle does exist in Great Britain. If the minister will read the debate in the British House of Commons he will find that Sir John Anderson is reported to have said at page 723:
When soldiers are on foreign service their whole conditions of life will be covered.
That is in effect the insurance principle.
It is only when they return temporarily to the ordinary conditions of their civil life-as when a man goes normally on leave to his home in this country-that they will not be covered. That is the one exception.
Yesterday I read Sir John Anderson's further explanation in which he said, as reported at page 722:
We are giving the fullest possible application of the doctrine that a service man places himself wholly and unreservedly at the disposal of the state during his service and we are covering everything with one exception.

The exception was illustrated by the case where a man at home fell off a ladder.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: They are all theatres of actual war there, which is our definition.


Howard Charles Green: That is not the British test. They do not put it on that ground. They say that once a man has given his life to the service he is under the control of the service and should be covered, except when he is home on leave. The Minister of Pensions, Sir Walter Womersley, at page 798, said:
The only case which does not come within that ruling is when a man is spending his leave at home, or with friends, or going about just like any other civilian, or doing some occupation which very often cannot be described as having anything to do with military service. The government feel that they cannot go to that extreme and that the man must come into the ordinary social services for compensation.
That shows how far they are going, and I use the accident cases only by way of illustration. I think there are far more hardship cases in connection with disability, where a man is ill. Where a man, in the service in Canada becomes ill and is discharged it is almost impossible for him to get a pension. I do not know what the figures are up to the present time. The minister has not given the number of pension applications granted^-


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Just now I can give them up to the end of 1943. Our grand total of pension awards for all classes of pension arising out of service in the present war, up to December 31, 1943, has reached the figure of 11,244, with a total annual liability of $5,788,184. Of these pensions, 6,484 are for disabilities, and 4,760 are for the dependents of those who gave their lives.
Women members of the three armed forces are pensionable under the same conditions as men-and eighteen of our pension awards are for disabilities incurred by members of the Canadian Women's Army Corps and the Women's Division of the R.C.A.F.
Of the 10,783 pensions awarded with respect to members of the armed forces, 977 were awarded under section 11(3)-the compassionate section to which I have referred. The annual liability for these 977 pensions is $493,665. My recollection is that the number is 13,000.


Howard Charles Green: We have to find out how many served abroad and how many in Canada. I received a return last year, sessional paper 139, giving figures showing that only one man out of thirty-three discharged as medically unfit after service in Canada was able to qualify for pension. Outside Canada less than

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
fifty per cent qualified, although covered by the insurance principle. At any rate, the proportion of men discharged in Canada as medically unfit, who can qualify for pension, is very small. That, of course, means that the men are handicapped in getting treatment after they are discharged, and they are handicapped in many other ways. In other words, it shows that our pension law is not what it should be as it stands at the present time. Could the minister get the figures this evening showing first of all the proportion of men who served in Canada, discharged as medically unfit and unable to get pensions.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Disability and dependents, both?


Howard Charles Green: Yes, and those who served abroad.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


Howard Charles Green: Has the minister the figures I requested just before the dinner recess?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes; I have the figures as to the decisions rendered, as requested by the hon. member for Vancouver South. Decisions on disability and death, as at February 29, 1944, were as follows:
Granted
Service in Canada	 2,658
Outside of Canada	 6,906
Total	 9,564
Not granted
Service in Canada	 34,740
Outside of Canada	 4,919
Total	 39,659
Granted and not granted
In Canada-Total	 37,398
Outside Canada-Total	 11,825
Grand total	 49,223
That is the figure which was mentioned this afternoon.


Howard Charles Green: Then the minister said that there were about 50,000 deferred priority cases?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: As I understood it, those are cases which have not been finally ruled upon, but which have been given a preliminary review, and the opinion is that applications if made, would not be granted.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is right.


Howard Charles Green: About how many of those come from men who served in Canada only?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I can give only an estimate, but I think about 95 per cent would concern men who served only in Canada, most of them for very short periods.


Howard Charles Green: Then this would mean that about 2,658 pensions have been granted to men who served only in Canada, and that 34,740 applications have been rejected?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: And another 45,000 of the
men who have been discharged-


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Are not likely to have their applications granted.


Howard Charles Green: They are not likely ever to get pensions?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: So that apparently only about 2,600 out of 80,000 men discharged who have served only in Canada will get pensions?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: If I may interrupt for a moment about the 50,000 deferred priorities; about forty per cent of those who served in Canada had service of less than six months.	*


Howard Charles Green: In any event the proportion of men who served in Canada and were discharged as medically unfit who can qualify for pension is very small under our present pension law?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: I suggest that in itself this fact shows that there is need for changing the provisions of the Pension Act. Subsection 2 of section 11, which covers the men who have served only in Canada, covers also the men who serve in our peace-time forces, so that in effect our pension provisions are the same for the peace-time forces and for the men who are serving now, during the war, in Canada. I think the minister will admit that this is so. I do not think that is fair. I believe that where men are serving in time of war there should be a different pension provision to cover them than we have to cover the men in the peace-time forces. Then I suggest that the wording of subsection 2 is really drastic. For example, in the last line we find
3070	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
these words: "directly connected with such military service". Last summer the British, Ahose pension provisions contained the term "directly attributable", struck out the word "directly". We still- have it in our section; and the very fact that the pension commission is giving a wide interpretation to subsection 2, as the minister stated this afternoon, shows that it is not wide enough, and that this is realized even by the pension commission in administering it. I think he said that their approach was that if service were a factor in connection with the disability, then they would grant the application. Another reason for changing the pension provision for the men in the forces in Canada is that the men who served in the last war were covered by the insurance principle, even though they served only in England or in Canada, and the men in this war should be given the same consideration that we received in the last war. Then the minister said that the change was made effective as of May 21, 1940, because of certain abuses which arose under the act prior to that time. He did not give us the details of those abuses, and perhaps it would be of interest to the committee to know what they were, so that we could help make provision against them. I believe the act could be changed in such a way that justice would be done and at the same time abuses would be prevented.
This afternoon the minister said that subsection 3 of section 11 was really a compromise, but I suggest that was hardly the case. At page 3197 of Hansard for May 27, 1941, I find these questions and answers, after I had been pressing the minister in regard to this very section:
Mr. Hanson (York-Sunbury): This is a compromise, because the minister ds not willing to go the whole length in principle, as advocated.
Mr. Mackenzie (Vancouver Centre):	That is
correct.
Mr. Hanson (York-Sunbury):	There is the
truth.
Mr. Mackenzie (Vancouver Centre):	Yes;
that is correct.
Mr. Hanson (York-Sunbury): If he will not change his mind, I shall not take the time of the committee to urge him to do so.
So that I think it.may be said that in 1941 the fact was that the government did not feel it could go so far as to put in any wider provision.
This afternoon I mentioned the question of treatment. As I understand it, a man who has not proved entitlement to pension can get treatment for a maximum of one year only. The minister will correct me if I am wrong in that. My understanding is that if a man is entitled to pension he can get treatment as long as he lives, but that if he is

not entitled to pension treatment is limited to a maximum of one year; if he served for less than a year, he gets treatment only for the same length of time as he served.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Treatment to finality.


Howard Charles Green: That has been changed, has it? Is that the provision now?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The limitation is imposed only in connection with allowances.


Howard Charles Green: But suppose a man incurs his disability on service but it is held by the pension commission that the disability is not attributable to service. I have a case of that kind before me. The ruling was: "incurred during service but not pensionable, as it did not arise out of nor was it directly connected with military service." That man has been discharged for more than a year, and he requires medicine costing $5 a month.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: May I ask if in that case a pension was awarded under section 11 (3)?


Howard Charles Green: No. The man has to buy medicine which costs $5 a month. He cannot , get any further treatment from .the hospital, although his condition is still bad, or becomes bad every so often. It was incurred during service, but not directly attributable to his service. That situation I suggest to the minister is unfair.
Another restriction or handicap carried by these men who are not able to qualify for pension is that they cannot take up land under the Veterans' Land Act. The ruling to date is that unless a man is a pensioner he cannot get the benefit of that act. So that the man who cannot qualify for pension, although his disability may have arisen while he was in the service, loses out in these different ways. Those a; ^ other reasons why changes should be made in the act.
I was very much impressed by the stand taken by the president of the Canadian Legion with regard to the question of the insurance principle. I refer, of course, to Mr. Alex. Walker, who, I think, has been a splendid president of the legion, and has rendered great service to the returned men of Canada. I hold in my hand a copy of the Legionary, the official publication of the Canadian Legion. This is the issue for December, 1942, and contains a statement by Mr. Walker from which I propose to read. It is headed, "Repudiated Pledge," and states:
At the outbreak of the present war the government pledged itself to apply all the benefits of the existing Pension Act, including the insurance principle to those enlisted for active

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
service. A special order in council was passed under the War Measures Act giving effect to this pledge. However on May 21, 1940, the government changed their policy, repudiated their .pledge I say, and definitely excluded all those whose service was in Canada only from the benefits of the insurance principle in a new order in council. The Canadian Legion immediately registered strong objections, and the government announced that a special committee of the House of Commons would be appointed later to go into the matter.
Mr. Walker goes on to explain about the sittings of the special committee in 1941, about the representations made to the committee by the legion, and finally about some relief being granted by section 11 (3). Then he says this:
Two and one-half years of experience has shown the many grave injustices done to men who have contracted diseases which it is impossible to demonstrate "arose out of, and were directly connected with military service." Yet many of these men have served along our coasts, exposed to all kinds of weather, and there must always be grave doubt as to the effect of such service.
Is the government willing to take any steps to review this whole question of the insurance principle, as it applies to the men who have served only in Canada? Will the minister give any hope that this question will be considered again?	,


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: My hon. friend has asked a question regarding government policy, which I cannot answer. But I can assure him that the insurance principle, and every other question connected with the Pension Act are being reviewed from week to week and from month to month, constantly. No doubt this question will be reviewed again, as it has been in the past.


Howard Charles Green: There are one or two other questions which I asked the minister yesterday, but which he did not answer to-day. One had to do with soldiers being discharged from the anny to the Department of Pensions and National Health. I asked yesterday why it was not possible for a soldier to be treated as a soldier right through until he is discharged to civil life, or until his medical rehabilitation has been completed, rather than be considered first as a charge of the army, and then, when he becomes ill or disabled, a charge of the Department of Pensions and National Health. I believe that in some cases that change means that the soldier receives less pay, or that his dependents receive less. Why is it not possible to have him treated as a soldier, receiving the pay and allowances of a soldier, until he is discharged to civilian life? The minister did not deal with that matter.
He also said nothing about the complaint made against making changes in the Pension Act by order in council, rather than by amendments to the act. I refer to changes announced just two or three days ago.
Then, he sad nothing about the veterans' guard. He will remember I pointed out yesterday that these men are now reaching the ages of fifty-five or sixty years. Those who are discharged as fit will have great difficulty in securing jobs. My suggestion was that some provision should be made for a service pension. They have served this country in two wars, and some of them will have served for periods of eight, or nine, or even ten years. It would be unfair to force them to take a war veterans allowance, and certainly it would be most unfair to force them to go back on relief. They constitute a group which will have to be given special consideration. I should like to have answers from the -minister.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I shall be glad to answer, indeed. In the first place, this afternoon the hon. -member raised a point in connection with service rendered wholly in Canada. I would point out that in deciding when disability resulting from disease arose out of -or was directly connected with such military service, the commission takes into account any or all of the following factors:
Nature of service; the history of origin of the disease as revealed by the available evidence; the record of examination on- enlistment; the nature of the disease; the age of the individual; corroboration of statements.
Each case, in the final analysis, is considered on its merits, but recognition is given to the fact that conditions of service are more exacting than in civil life, and the individual is to a greater degree than in normal pursuits exposed to inclement weather, unusual mental and physical strain, and exposure to persons suffering from infectious diseases or carriers of infectious organisms. These are the considerations.


Howard Charles Green: Is that under subsection 2 of section 11?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: Of course the act still remains the same.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes; but the administration- has been more or less altered along the lines I have indicated.


Howard Charles Green: If the administration has been eased up, then surely the act should be eased up.
3072	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Pensions and Health


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I was just answering my hon. friend's question. That is the first answer, and it goes a long way to meet the objection raised.
Then, as to hospital allowances, I will deal with the type of cases as they normally occur on discharge from the forces:
(1)	If, in the opinion of medical officers of the Department of National Defence, he is, by reason of physical fitness, unlikely to be able to serve again, he is discharged.


Howard Charles Green: From the army?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes. To continue:
(2)	If he requires treatment at that time, it is continued by the Department of Pensions and National Health. During such treatment he and his dependents receive exactly the same pay and allowances as paid during service except in the ease of officers holding the rank above that of sublieutenant (navy), lieutenant (military), or flying officer (air) who are paid at a rate not in excess of that applicable to a sublieutenant, lieutenant or flying officer.


Howard Charles Green: In other words, their pay and allowances are cut down?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes; that is right. These allowances may be continued for a period of one year or for a period equal to the length of service, whichever is the less, provided always that treatment is required for that period. The allowances are payable not only while the man is in hospital but while on out-patient treatment or while convalescing and unable to work.
(3)	If further treatment is required and the disability is deemed by the pension commission to be pensionable, hospital allowances are thereafter paid at rates based on the 100 per cent pension rate for the rank held by the patient while in the forces, less $30 a month. That was established some years ago.


Howard Charles Green: Suppose a disability is not pensionable; what happens at the end of the year?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I will come to that.
(4)	If at any time within a year following discharge from the forces, a man requires treatment for any condition whatsoever, other than a pensioned one-


Howard Charles Green: That is during the year?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: -he may be given such treatment and, in addition, is paid allowances on behalf of him-

self and dependents equal to out-of-work benefits and training allowances payable under the reestablishment order.


Howard Charles Green: In other words, he does not get his army pay?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: 
Howard Charles Green: In other words, he would get only $14.	*


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: 
Howard Charles Green: Does the minister not think it would be a sounder and fairer practice to pay a man pay and allowances until he is discharged to civilian life? At a conference of the national council of veteran associations in Canada, held early last December in Toronto, which included representatives from the Sir Arthur Pearson Association of War Blinded, the Canadian Pensioners' Association, Canadian Corps Association and the Army and Navy Veterans in Canada, the following resolution dealing with treatment regulations was passed:
That in no case should the pay and allowance of a former member of the forces of this war in hospital be less than that of his rank during service for the whole of his period of initial and continuous treatment.
I suggest that that practice should have been carried out from the start instead of getting away to these different provisions and classifications.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That was done for an obvious reason. The practice in the last war was entirely different. At that time we had a military hospitals commission and what my hon. friend now suggests should be done was done. A member of the forces undergoing treatment was on the strength of the defence forces, the militia forces or the armed forces until discharge. When the war was concluded we had many
problems to face. We found that in the interregnum certain abuses had occurred which, as my hon. friend will recall, resulted in the amendments of 1936. It was found that certain senior officers were receiving extravagant allowances. This fact came to the notice of the house and the amendments were passed with great acclaim in 1936.
I frankly confess that I see quite a lot of merit in the suggestion which my hon. friend has quoted as having been passed by this organization and which he supports himself. My reaction is that for a reasonable time after discharge until the soldier or the officer-


Howard Charles Green: Prom the army or from the hospital?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am thinking now of his return to civil life from the hospital. For a reasonable time he should be entitled to draw pay and allowances after military discharge while undergoing treatment and until he is reestablished. He should receive his pay as lieutenant, major or whatever rank he holds until we have effected complete establishment at home. But that practice should not be perpetuated once a man has been reestablished. I think we must then come back to a basis such as we have now.


Howard Charles Green: .The pay and allowances in some cases would be less than a private would get in the army.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I do not think they are; they all come under the ceiling of lieutenant's pay. I frankly confess that there is a strong argument for the recommendation made by this organization. As a matter of fact we now have a committee in the department reviewing every single feature of treatment. This is under the chairmanship of Brigadier General Ross, with Doctor Bain, director of medical services, and Walter Woods, associate deputy minister. There are no finer three men in the whole service. This committee is giving careful consideration- to every possible phase of treatment and I will do my best to carry out whatever recommendations they may make as to any inequalities they may discover.


Mr. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: I should
like to say a few words about the section in the Pension Act which provides that a man's disability or deterioration in health must be attributable to service before he is entitled to a pension. I have a case in mind which I took up with the minister. He did make an educational grant to this particular fellow which has helped him out considerably, but
3074	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
he was refused a pension on the ground that his physical condition was not attributable to service.
When I was home this young fellow came to see me with his father and they outlined the whole case to me. It appears that when the boy joined up he referred to his disability which had occurred in early childhood. This was noted on his record, but that condition had not affected him for something like fifteen or sixteen years; to all appearances he had entirely outgrown it when he passed the medical board on joining the army. He was placed in category A-l, and when the attention of the medical authorities was drawn to the fact that he had suffered this disability in his early years they were particularly cautious. As I understand it, they reexamined him to see if he was really physically fit.
The doctors on the examining board have an opportunity to examine a man thoroughly before he joins the army. They have the advantage of the latest and best equipment. They are practical, experienced doctor's and they can make a thorough diagnosis. After this boy had joined up for active service and had passed A-l, he was turned out of the army physically unfit after a period of eight, ten or twelve months, I just forget the exact time. I believe that he was placed in category E, because in between that time he had been in the hospital for a long period.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: What is the nature of his disability?
Mr. JOHNSTON (Bow River); I am sorry I have not the file with me, but I know that in general the facts I am stating are correct. First of all, this boy wrote to me that he wanted a pension and the educational grant. I suggested that probably it would be better to get the educational grant first and later take up the question of a pension. I took up the question of an educational grant for him with the minister, through whose kindness we got that through, but there was quite a bit of red tape about it. The father sent me a letter expressing his appreciation and he asked me to convey his thanks to the minister, which I did, as the minister probably recalls. The point is that this boy when he tried to get a pension was refused on the ground that his condition was not attributable to. service, despite the fact that when he joined up he had a thorough medical examination and the medical diagnosis showed that he was A-l. I do not see what better authority we could have than the expert opinion of the doctors who examined him. The condition did not recur until after he joined the army, a matter of ten or twelve or thirteen years. I am not a medical doctor, but common 
sense tells one that the sickness which followed after he j oined up must have been entirely dhe to the conditions under which he was living, perhaps the strenuous training, while on active service. There is no doubt in my mind that it was his military service which caused his sickness, and it does not seem fair to me that the obligation of the government should be evaded in a case of that kind. Once the doctors pass a man as A-l, if anything happens to him afterwards it should be considered attributable to service and it should not debar him from receiving a pension. I think the minister would do well to reconsider that class of cases, which has been mentioned by others. It does seem to me to be most unfair.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Does my hon. friend remember whether it was a case of neurosis or a straight physical disability?


Charles Edward Johnston: I should not like to say because I have not the file before me.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: My hon. friend, the member for Vancouver South, asked a question about the veterans' guard which I forgot to answer. I quite agree with the submission he made. These men are entitled to every consideration that we can give them. They are now getting close to sixty years and have served through two wars; some of them have undergone considerable hardship and they are certainly entitled to every consideration. We have a special subcommittee of the general committee on demobilization giving attention to their case. What will be worked out I cannot say. But we have not forgotten the suggestion which my hon. friend made when he was speaking this afternoon.


Howard Charles Green: My other question was about changes in the Pension Act being made by order in council.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: We are doing what was done in the last great war to meet emergent conditions which arise from time to time. The hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre mentioned that it might endanger some of the benefits, but I can assure him that that will not be done. In the great war all this was done by order in conucil. It is most difficult to visualize the numerous changes that may have to take place in the pension system and in the war veterans' allowance before the war is over. The ideal way would be to pass a consolidated Pension Act and a consolidated War Veterans' Allowance Act, bringing all the amendments up to date and possibly incorporating others that have not yet received the

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
endorsation of this house. But orders in council are passed to meet emergent conditions. Otherwise we should have to amend the act three or four times a year.


Howard Charles Green: These changes made by order in council affect the men of the last war, not of this war.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: My hon. friend is not opposed to them, I am sure.


Howard Charles Green: No; but they should be put through in the form of amendments to the Pension Act; they have nothing to do with the men of this war.
Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre); One of the first duties of parliament after hostilities cease will be to consolidate the Pension Act and various other pieces of soldier legislation, the Veterans' Allowance Act, the Veterans' Land Act and such others as will need consolidation.


Howard Charles Green: I did not get an answer to my question with regard to disability incurred during service but not pensionable. What treatment can a man who is in that position get?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Under section 11 (3)?


Howard Charles Green: No. A man incurs a disability during service, and it is held not pensionable because it did not arise directly out of his service. What treatment can that man get in hospital, and for how long, and what allowance can he get?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: After the first year of civil life he is entitled to treatment only if he is awarded a pension, unless he saw service in a theatre of actual war.


Howard Charles Green: Otherwise he gets nothing?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is it.


George Hugh Castleden: As one listens to the minister one would imagine that all is well. Perhaps the cases that came to my attention are the unfortunate ones. I drew to the attention of the minister a particular case where a man was not being treated properly and the minister promptly rectified the trouble. It appears to me that these cases should not occur in the first place. I brought to the minister's attention recently the case of a sergeant who had enlisted for active service and after two years' service in Canada was injured in training. He took sick last September. That
was the first illness he had had. He was discharged in December. His sickness was diagnosed as diverticulitis. Since his discharge the man has had to go back to hospital, and the hospital authorities say that there is absolutely nothing they can do for him. All he has to do is to diet. He has to go home now and diet himself there. He has a wife and child whom he cannot support because of his disability. What I do not like about the case is this. When this man appeared in Saskatoon the members of the pension board informed him that he could receive no pension because he had not been overseas. It seems to me that the members of the board should be instructed to inform the men correctly as to what their position is, and that under certain conditions of service in Canada the man is pensionable.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Will my hon. friend send me the man's number?


George Hugh Castleden: His number is L.84656.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Was it a congenital condition?


George Hugh Castleden: Not to my knowledge.


Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: The hon. member for Bow River made a remark which suggests a condition that I think should not exist. He said that through the kindness of the minister a man was able to get an educational grant. I have found on many occasions that if it had not been for the kindness of members of parliament on both sides of the house many men in the armed forces would not have been able to get their war veterans' allowance.	[DOT]


An hon. MEMBER:: Why?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: That is just it. Why? I know of many men who have written to myself or to other members about their cases. They could get no action upon them until some member of parliament intervened and took the case up for them. I want to say that the pension department has been extremely kind to me and has helped me out in all the cases I have brought to its attention. I am very much obliged, but I think the department should have some procedure whereby these men, when they need it, will get some action without the intervention of members of parliament.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I think the real explanation is that these cases come to the attention of hon. members, or possibly to my attention through the good will of hon. members, before they are ever referred to the pension board or other branches
3076	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
of the government. The member of parliament is in the district; he knows the local conditions; he knows of cases of hardship; and I find frequently that when cases coming from hon. members of all parties are immediately referred to the departmental officials, sometimes, if not invariably, they have never come to the attention of the officials before.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: 
Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Domiciliary care, sometimes called veterans' care.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: In one case which came to my attention a veteran wanted to go there. He was receiving a war veterans' allowance at that time of, I think, $25, and they wanted to take the full $2s! He objected strongly, and he did not go, because he felt that he should have some money left over with which to buy little luxuries that he wanted, such as cigarettes or other extras.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: May I interrupt my hon. friend, just to be cooperative? Was that not a case of somebody drawing a pension? It was not a veterans' allowance, because he must have been a pensioner to qualify for domiciliary care.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: 
Ian Alistair Mackenzie: 
Gordon Knapman Fraser: 
Gordon Knapman Fraser: That is quite a recent provision, is it not?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No; it is for comforts and clothing. It has been in effect for some time, I think.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: In the case of all soldiers now on veterans' allowance, is it now raised right up to the peak automatically? It was not before.


Mr.   MACKENZLE@Vancouver Centre: 1 think I made a statement in the house last year, when the increases were announced, that they would be automatic and would not require any intervention by the applicant.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Mention has been made of demobilization. Some months ago I heard the high commissioner for South Africa speak in Toronto. He said that no one in South Africa is demobilized until a job is secured for him. I thought that was an idea which Canada should adopt, because if we did, we would not have any unemployed men-or women-from the armed forces. That is a circumstance to take into consideration. The high commissioner also said that no wounded man is demobilized until a job is secured for him, and that casualties are centralized in camps at full pay. That is different from what it is here.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No. I believe our ideas, which have not yet been finalized, are moving along the same lines.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: They will come to that?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: In that connection, may I place a short extract upon the record? It is proposed that the Department of Pensions and National Health should establish rehabilitation facilities at each demobilization centre, and that all personnel should be interviewed by competent interviewers as a primary screening, and thence referred to one or other of the following sections, which will be operated by trained counsellors of the department: (a) vocational training section; (b) interrupted education section; (c) information officer of the Veterans' Land Act administration; (d) civil service commission representative for persons interested in dominion government employment; (e) representative of the unemployment insurance commission, with regard to employment; (f) representatives of the pensions and treatment branches of the Department of Pensions and National Health; (g) special consultants in cases presenting problems which deviate from the normal; (h) special counsellor for female members of the forces, and (i) special counsellor for disabled men. For this purpose it is deemed essential

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
that personnel and educational officers in the three branches of the service, plus the necessary clerical staff to be drawn from the services, should be given preference in employment in the rehabilitation branch of the Department of Pensions and National Health and the administration of the Veterans' Land Act. It is considered that after primary screening and secondary consultation as has just been outlined, persons to be discharged will resolve themselves broadly into the following groups: (1) those who have a job to go to, or those who are engaged in a business or profession on their own account; (2) those who are accepted for vocational training under existing provisions; (3) those who are accepted for resumption of interrupted education at university level; (4) those who desire to be released with a view to returning to their own farms, and those who desire to make application for settlement on the land and are able to make provision for themselves until their eligibility is determined. It is thought that these four groups should be released as soon as arrangements can be made for the carrying on of the new business, training, or settlement on the land, or, if they are able to make provision for themselves pending the completion of such arrangements, it is thought that they might be discharged even earlier.
This leaves two major groups: those who are fully competent and skilled and require no training; and unskilled persons lacking the basic education to assimilate a training course. These latter groups should be referred to the employment office of the unemployment insurance commission, with a view to placement in employment.
It is a corollary of the programme which I have just described that those who are not immediately able to enter upon, for instance, vocational training, or for whom employment is not immediately available, should not be discharged from the forces until the arrangements contemplated for them have been completed.
The procedures that have been described 'will apply both to new recruits and personnel with short service in Canada, as well as to personnel returned from overseas.
The foregoing procedure covers those who can be absorbed by former employment, training, and farming, on their own resources.
With respect to those who cannot be so absorbed, it will be the responsibility of the government of the day, in cooperation with private industry through the facilities of the proposed department of reconstruction, to develop additional avenues of employment.
To the extent that such additional employment opportunity is not available, the device of retarded demobilization may be the necessary solution.
These are just some of the suggestions that have come before the committees who have been giving anxious thought and care to this problem.
The problem of demobilization really falls into three parts: First, the problem of repatriation, which is the task of the defence forces, that is getting the men home after hostilities are over. This may occupy a considerable time. Second, the problem of demobilization, which will be a joint problem between the defence services who are in charge of the men until they are handed over to the Department of Pensions and National Health for active rehabilitation in after life. Third, the problem of rehabilitation itself, which will be the primary concern of the Department of Veterans' Affairs.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Are these suggestions put forward as those which will be the, policy of the government, or are they suggestions?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: They are suggestions. They are not finalized yet, but these are suggestions made by certain committees which for the last year and a half have been giving very careful attention to this matter.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Further with regard to this talk which I heard from the High Commissioner of South Africa. He said that in South Africa, when a job was secured for a man or woman demobilized from the forces, he or she must be kept on the payroll for at least six months. That is a good suggestion, because there is the chance during the six months for that man to "find his feet". Over there they are using prisoners of war to prepare the farms which will be available under this land settlement act for soldiers.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Veterans Land Act.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Yes.
If the returned men went on some of the farms that I have seen, which are being taken over by the government for these men, they would find it very difficult for some time to make a living on them because in many cases the buildings need repairs, and there is a suggestion that if we had someone to put these farms into shape the soldier or airman or the man from the navy would have a better break. I do not know whether it was from the minister's department, but over the radio
3078	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
some months ago I heard the closing part of a speech with reference to amputation cases which struck me rather forcibly. The speech in question ended something like this: Ordinary people are looking for an extraordinary place in life, whereas the amputation cases are extraordinary people who are looking only for an ordinary place in life. I thought how true that was, because these fellows simply want to be reestablished.
What is being done with regard to the staff houses that are not being used any longer by Wartime Housing? Is the department going to take them over for hospitals? We have a wonderful institution of this kind in Peterborough and I should like to see it turned into a hospital.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: My recollection is that when some of these were being given up I got into touch with the officials of the department to make a survey of all the facilities in connection with staff houses and air training centres to see if they could be used for any of the essential purposes of the department, but I am sorry to say that the results were not very encouraging. The Department of Labour is making a survey of such places with a view to having them utilized for vocational training purposes when this scheme is going fully on the return of the men. How far we have gone with that survey I do not know, but as regards the medical treatment end of it the report was not very encouraging.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Would these places not be all right for convalescent cases?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Convalescent homes as such we have not under the department and have never had. The only feature of the work of the department by way of treatment that approaches convalescent homes is the domiciliary care which I mentioned; that is to say, the care of veterans. We have one in Toronto and one in Vancouver, and from 100 to 200 men are happy in their later years in these places. We may have to extend them, but we do not call them convalescent homes. The new policy of the department in connection with such conditions is rather to help and there are five centres under contemplation-possibly more. We are starting with one, and I hope that before the session is over all hon. members will take occasion to examine thoroughly the one at Rideau Centre in the vicinity of Ottawa. The idea is to foster the desire on the part of the men for work once again after their war experiences by which they have been shaken. In addition to that, there will be definite

need of a psychiatric centre and the extension of small convalescent homes, though I do not like that name; I prefer to call them veterans' care homes. We are now in touch with those who have been doing excellent work for the air force and the army. They have convalescent homes throughout the country, raised by private subscription through the good will of public-spirited citizens, and we may be able to obtain some of these later on.
Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West); Is the one in Ottawa now under construction?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It is known as Rideau Centre.


Mr. ADAMSON:: Is the guild of all arts in Toronto under the minister's direction?
Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre); Yes; that is a special psychiatric centre after the pattern of Mill Hill in England, which has had a tremendous success.


Agar Rodney Adamson: It is under the minister's department?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Mr. GILLIS:: We are trying to stick as close as possible to the estimates.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am afraid not.


Clarence Gillis: Well, the members of this group are. We are trying to deal with principles rather than details. The minister will remember that a year ago when he last had his estimates before the committee I suggested to him that, because of the nature of the war, we would require a considerable expansion in our neurological hospitals across the country. The minister agreed at that time and intimated that they had this in mind. Now, a year later, he says that the establishing of psychiatric centres throughout Canada is still a matter of consideration, with a start being made, I understand, in one or two places.
I wish to direct to his attention a matter we discussed last year, and to demonstrate the necessity of the principle I will state a case for him. It is a case I discussed last year in the house. A boy received a fractured skull while thrown from a jeep. For the past year he has been going through the process of proving his claim and he did succeed in entering Camp Hill hospital. He had had a partial stroke. The decision at the hospital was that he was suffering from psychosis, and because of the fact that he had not been examined by a pensions medical examiner and

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
assessed for pension he was shifted to an insane asylum. That man, in my opinion, and I believe in any one else's opinion, is in no condition to be placed, and should not under any circumstances be placed, in a regular insane asylum for treatment. To the best of my knowledge, there are in that institution no facilities and perhaps not the skilled personnel necessary to treat a case of that kind. I suggest that he should have been removed to Montreal to one of the neurological hospitals there.
I bring this to the minister's attention because it definitely proves that in most sections of Canada there is not the kind of institutional care necessary for such cases. The letter I have received in connection with this case is dated May 16. It comes from the pensions medical examiner in Camp Hill hospital. He states that this man is suffering from psychosis, having been admitted on April 25, 1944, and transferred to the Nova Scotia Mental hospital at Dartmouth on April 27, 1944, and at the present time he is undergoing treatment there under the new clause 2, which is the old clause 20. I believe that disability is admitted as attributable to service. While in the institution he gets pay but he is not assessed for pension. My objection is to placing a boy with that sort of disability in such an institution.
There is another matter I wish to discuss and I shall be brief. In the matter of pensions for women serving in the auxiliary services, I suggest that they should be treated exactly as the service personnel in the men's section of the services. The same rates should apply. In the present regulation the differential that exists in the schedules or wage rates or whatever you want to call them has been carried forward into the pension schedules. Many of these girls are overseas and many of them are likely to suffer the same disabilities as the men. If on returning from overseas they have disabilities of ten per cent, fifteen per cent or twenty-five per cent, the rates which apply in the case of regular service personnel should certainly apply to them also. I think everyone in the house has admitted that in connection with the wage schedules generally there are good arguments why the women should be treated the same as the men. I merely leave that thought with the minister.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: We did raise them quite recently from two-thirds to four-fifths.


Clarence Gillis: Yes; but I think they should receive 100 per cent, at least in this matter of pensions.


Robert Fair: We have made provision for the rehabilitation of certain groups coming back from overseas, but I have in mind one group in particular for whom no provision is made; I refer to business and professional men whose careers have been interrupted by the war. Has any consideration been given to granting capital loans in such cases? Take, for instance, a young lawyer who worked hard to get through college and who was in practice for perhaps only a year or two before entering the service. When he comes back he will have a very hard time to get going unless some provision is made for his rehabilitation. The same is true with respect to men in other lines of business, and I wondered if any consideration has been given along the line I have suggested.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Is my hon. friend referring to capital loans for the purpose of establishing such men in business?


Robert Fair: Yes. I mention it because certain capital loans and grants are being made to men settling under the veterans' land act, and I wondered if something similar was being considered for men in business.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is also receiving consideration by a special committee of the demobilization committee.


Mr. CARDIFF:: Is a soldier granted a pension according to the application or presentation submitted by him, or is the pension decided on the evidence available in the case? Does it make any difference how the application is presented by the applicant; will the decision be the same in any event? I ask this question because there is a great difference in the ability of men to present a case, and I do not consider that a fair way of arriving at a decision. I believe that a case should be decided on its merits rather than on the ability of the applicant to present it. I have in mind the case of a man in my riding who served all through the last war. When the present war broke out he enlisted again and served for three years in England. He was knocked down by a motorcycle in a blackout one night, and injured to the extent that it was necessary to discharge him. If his pension is decided on his ability to present his case, I do not think he would get along very well.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Perhaps I should outline the procedure that is adopted. It is as follows:
(1)	When an application is first made for pension the commission reviews all relevant records including such documentary evidence as
3080	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
may be submitted and makes such inquiry through its medical and other officers as appears advisable into -the facts upon which the application is based, and if satisfied that the applicant is entitled to pension it makes such award and takes the necessary steps to cause the payment of pension to be made.
(2)	When the application is not granted the applicant is notified in writing of the decision with the grounds therefor, and advised that unless he makes an application for second hearing within ninety days the case will be closed.
(3)	If a second hearing is requested, the commission informs the applicant in writing:
(a) That if he so desires 'he may have the assistance of the veterans' bureau free of charge, or a service bureau of a veterans' organization, or -by some other person at his own expense in the preparation and presentation of his application;
(-b) That a summary of all available evidence will foe mailed to him -by the veterans' bureau; and
(c) That his complete claim must be submitted within a period of six months of the date of mailing of the summary of evidence.
(4)	The commission also notifies -the veterans' *bureau that an application -for second hearing has been accepted, and the veterans' bureau thereupon prepares a summary of all available evidence and mails a copy to the applicant.
(5)	When the applicant notifies -the commission within a period of six months that he is satisfied to submit his claim, the commission makes its ruling on second hearing.
(G) If the ruling on second hearing is not favourable to the applicant the commission notifies the applicant accordingly in writing, stating the grounds therefor, and informs him that if he so desires he may appear before an appeal board of the commission, provided that he so requests within ninety days.
(7)	For the purpose of hearing applications an appeal board of the commission consists of three members and holds sittings periodically throughout places in Canada. The members of such appeal boards are designated by the chairman of the commission, -but shall not include any member of the commission who has previously ruled on first or second hearing of the application. At such hearings appeal 'board representations may be made in person and sworn verbal evidence adduced.
(8)	The decision of such appeal board shall be final except that an application may be made -to a special appeal board of the commission on the grounds of error, or by reason of evidence not having been produced to the commission for leave to reopen the application.
This is the result of many years of discussion by veterans' organizations, and I think it is a fairly successful procedure.


Mr. ESLING:: Is there any hospital for exservice men between Vancouver and Calgary?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Not definitely, as such, except the contract hospitals with which we have made arrangements for their care.


William Kemble Esling: Last session I endeavoured to impress upon the minister the dire need of some accommodation, either by way of a

hospital or convalescent homes, in the interior, for the reason that the distance between Vancouver and Calgary is just one thousand miles, which is a long stretch for invalids to travel. From the interior we have sent overseas fully five thousand men, more than tw-o thousand coming from the staff of the Consolidated Mining and Smelting company alone. No more beautiful location for a veterans' home or hospital could be found than on the shores of Lake Kootenay, where there is an- ideal climate and every conceivable recreation. It would seem only reasonable for the minister's advisers to give some consideration to hospital accommodation in the interior. Just to illustrate my point, in the latter part of 1939 we had a member of the 111th battery discharged from hospital in Edmonton. He came to Nelson, where he had enlisted, went into hospital for a month, and then was taken to his home some thirty miles distant. Then it became necessary for him to receive immediate hospital care, and they had to send- back to Nelson- for an ambulance. It cost the parents of that boy some 845 to have him taken to the nearest hospital, which would be in Denver, about thirty miles away. When he sought to recover the cost of the ambulance he was told that he should have gone to the Shaughnessy hospital in Vancouver. The minister will realize the impossibility of moving a boy in a critical condition a distance of five hundred miles, where there is hospital accommodation available within thirty miles. Does the minister countenance this sort of thing? Is it not possible to care for returned men- in local hospitals when they require hospitalization?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


William Kemble Esling: And have the local medical officers authority to send these men to local hospitals?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes; if they are reported immediately at the local centres they are entitled to look after them,, and the men can stay at home instead of going to Shaughnessy hospital.


William Kemble Esling: May I ask the minister if he will not have his hospital advisers look into the situation in the interior of British Columbia?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I shall be very glad to do so.


William Kemble Esling: Because it covers a vast area. They have made their contribution of men in all arms of the services, and it would be a kindly act to see that they are cared for on their return.

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health


Mr. EDWARDS:: I should like to support and endorse with all my heart what the hon. member who has just taken his seat has said. After all, we do represent the beauty spots of Canada. Healthy, well people travel thousands of miles to enjoy the invigorating air and the beauty of the scenery which alone is to be found in the valleys of the Rockies. It would seem almost trite to say that if the surrounding scenery and invigorating air contribute to the well-being, spiritual as well as physical, of the normal healthy man, it would have an even greater and more beneficial effect upon one who has sweated, toiled and laboured in the defence of us who are more fortunate and remain here at home.
I have often wondered why there are no rest homes anywhere between Calgary and Harrison Hot Springs in the Rocky mountains. And yet there are objections which I can well see might be advanced. I do know-and I shall make further reference to it on another occasion-that when veterans come home they do not want to be isolated, or placed awTay from their fellowmen. However, there are centres in the mountains, places such as Banff. Lake Louise and Nelson, all charming and delightful spots in themselves, and inhabited by people generous to a degree, from whom the sick or the convalescent soldier would receive that care and friendship which contribute so much to speedy recovery.
Without casting any reflection upon anyone who may be so unfortunate as to have to live in one of our metropolitan centres, I venture to say that the convalescent soldier, the sick man, will find more of the warmth of human sympathy and kindness in those smaller towns and cities, yea, in the villages, if you will, or in the wide open spaces of the prairies or the foothills or the mountain valleys, than he will find anywhere else in Canada. At Nelson, at Banff or at Lake Louise, where our transportation companies have invested millions for the well-being of people who will visit there, we as a nation might very well spend some money in building rest homes and hospitals for those who have given the best years of their lives for us.
In that connection I would refer to another matter connected with pensions and national health. May I say how much the people of Calgary appreciate the good judgment and discernment of the department in locating at Calgary what I have every reason to believe is probably the finest military hospital of its kind to be found anywhere on this continent, or probably in the world. It is a credit to Canada and to the department. In that hospital is to be found every modern convenience known to medicine and surgery for the care
and treatment of our returned soldiers. It stands in striking contrast to the miserable accommodation provided for the heroes of the last war. I congratulate the minister and the department upon their sparing no pains, money or scientific knowledge in the lay-out of that hospital, and I commend them, too, for the care and attention our returned soldiers are now receiving at the hands of the department.
I have only one other suggestion to make, and it has to do with the problem of rehabilitation and the integration into civilian life of our returned men. For the last four years- and it may extend to five years-our men overseas have been trained in the arts of war and the habits of military life. To whom do they look, and to whom have they looked for the last four years for counsel and advice in regard to their physical, social, domestic and military problems? I believe it is correct to say that in ninety per cent of cases they look to their officers. They look to the officers who command them, the officers to whose commands they respond. When the war is over, the control of those officers will be gone. No longer will the men have any right to look to them; no longer will the officer have any right to command. I wonder if we are not missing something in our plans and our programmes if we do not give consideration to the retention of the services of that officer, who has been the leader of those men and that he should be the last man discharged from the armed forces. Should we not retain the services of those officers in order that they may minister to, counsel and advise the soldiers and the noncommissioned officers who have served under them? Is there not some way whereby we can retain the services of the officer for his men?
I appreciate, as I am sure most hon. members do, that seventy-five per cent, or perhaps even a higher percentage of the men who will be rehabilitated into civilian life will have little difficulty. But there will be a remaining fifteen to twenty-five per cent who in normal, ordinary peace-times were, and will continue to be, if you will, problem cases. They had difficulties. They were not able to fend for themselves; they had difficulty in finding their niche. They were the men who relied upon their more -experienced fellow citizens to counsel and advise them. They are people who were in the habit of having to be told what to do. Can we not by some means retain the services of the officers in our armed forces for the benefit of those men, so that they may counsel and advise?
My next thought is connected with public health. We have heard considerable discussion respecting a serious problem, particularly in the rural areas of Canada, more particularly
3082	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
those of western Canada. During the Easter recess I attended a meeting at which two doctors were present. One of them to come to this meeting-and, frankly, it was a political meeting-had driven 125 miles. The other one had driven approximately sixty miles and thought nothing of it. This one doctor serves a territory with a radius of approximately 125 miles centering on his home, and yet he has to supplement his income from his professional services by engaging in the raising of stock such as cattle and hogs, and the growing of grain. I commended his enterprise. He is a man beloved and highly regarded in his community, but what is the answer to this problem? He is staying there from a sense of duty and obligation to these people.
It seems to me that we ought to help people to get medical services. In this day and age we should not insist upon a doctor living in a rural community where he cannot make a comfortable or decent living, where he cannot take advantage of modem hospitals and equipment. Why cannot we take the doctor to the people who require his services, or bring those people to the doctor by modern methods and means? At one time, between Calgary and Banff, a distance of eighty-five miles, there were four doctors. One was located at Cochrane, one at Exshaw, another at Canmore and another at Banff. What happened? The doctor at Cochrane has ceased to practice. Why? With the advent of the automobile people who were critically ill would drive past his door to go to Calgary where they could get better hospitalization and, as they thought, more skilled attention. The same thing happened at Exshaw, and now there is no doctor at either place. The result is that Calgary is serving an area seventy-five miles to the west. Toward the northwest many people live from 125 to 200 miles from a doctor.
I suggest that there should be attached to each medical centre a modern aeroplane with a competent pilot to serve an area with a radius of at least 200 miles. The aeroplane could take the doctor to patients needing his services or, if it were urgent, bring the patient to the medical centre. From time to time we hear and read of "mercy flights" in western Canada, but we should not regard them as exceptional any longer. Why not answer the call of modern times and use some of our aircraft for this purpose? I think it is a deplorable situation that professional brains and ability should have to spend time driving across our prairies in a Ford or Chevrolet automobile when the same distance could be covered by an aeroplane in ten or fifteen minutes.

If the minister has not already given consideration to this matter I suggest that he should consider giving financial aid if necessary to the provinces in order that they may modernize and stream-line their medical services. The armed services in Italy and the air force on our sea coasts, as well as the navy, are doing this sort of thing to-day. We have an abundant supply of modem aircraft which could be adapted to that purpose and used to take the doctor to his patient or bring the patient to the doctor, and thereby save time and suffering and conserve and distribute medical skill and hospital facilities.


The CHAIRMAN:: I feel that we have reached the stage when we should keep within the item. I have allowed a wide discussion, but I think hon. members will realize that they should keep within the terms of the first item of the Department of Pensions and National Health.


Mr. KNOWLES:: Speaking for just a
moment to a matter covered by the item, I wish to refer to what the minister said this afternoon in reply to questions I asked last night. First of all, may I say that I appreciate the spirit in which he spoke in replying to my comments concerning the shortage of medical personnel in the hospitals under the supervision of his department. I felt that when the minister spoke he made it clear that he is deeply concerned about this problem, which of course serves to underline the fact that it is a problem which should be faced.
There is one matter about which I should like to have the record clear, and then I wish to ask the minister one or two questions. The return which was tabled yesterday, sessional paper 214A, gave an answer to the questions I had asked about patient-days in the hospitals under the supervision of the department. Do those patient-days cover all patients in the hospitals, or do they refer only to Department of Pensions and National Health patients? At first I thought the figures referred to all patients, because that was what I intended by the wording of my question. But when I break down the figure with respect to Deer Lodge it shows only 266 patients per day, and I am sure that there are many more beds and many more patients than that in that hospital. Perhaps the minister can answer that question now.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It covers all patients that the department is treating. Admissions for the last fiscal year to the departmental hospitals were 41,848, and to other hospitals, 27,544.

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health


Stanley Howard Knowles: The inference can be
drawn from what [DOT]the minister has said that there are other patients in these hospitals. I am sure that there must be after having studied the figures with respect to the hospitals.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: What does my hon. friend mean by "other patients"?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Patients of the armed
services.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Oh, yes.


Stanley Howard Knowles: In that event I think I should point out that it is hardly proper, so far as these statistics are concerned, to stress the fact that medical personnel of the armed services are in the hospitals of the Department of Pensions and National Health.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The point I was trying to make was that we had many patients from the armed services before we got this additional assistance by the medical officers. It has always been our duty to look after serious active service cases.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Along with getting the
additional service of the medical personnel from the armed services, to which the minister referred and which is covered by the note at the bottom of this sessional paper, his department has also received an additional responsibility in the form of other patients not covered by the figures in this return. In other words, the responsibilities of the Department of Pensions and National Health are even greater than they were on the basis of the figures I had. I may say to 'the minister that another reason for my raising the matter last night was the fact that I had taken a little time to look over-


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Perhaps it will help my hon. friend to know that at the end of March we had in our hospitals 3,071 patients from the armed services and 5,397 of our own.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I think that will answer
the question once a person has had a chance to analyse the figures. I have looked over the extensive national health survey made by the Canadian medical procurment and assignment board, which was laid on the table of the house by the Minister of National Defence on March 13 of this year. It is a very 'bulky document identified as sessional paper
No. 217, and in part VII of volume X I find this recommendation, which is along the line of what I had in mind last night:
Recommendation No. 13.
Inter-service hospitalization should be encouraged :
Army tables indicate the small amount of inter-service hospitalization which exists as between the navy, army and air force. It is felt that inter-service hospitalization should be encouraged wherever possible.
The next sentence covers the point I want to make because we are talking about hospitals of the Department of Pensions and National Health. It goes on:
This would relieve the burden carried by Department of Pensions and National Health hospitals and would promote interlocking of service medical facilities.
As the minister will recall, I was concerned last night about the shortage of medical personnel in the hospitals under the supervision of his department. I was also concerned about the confusion that exists in some of these hospitals, and I point out that the very fact that medical personnel are congregated in these hospitals from two or three or four different services may be a reason for some of this confusion. I also know from things that have been told me that there have been some fine examples of cooperation among the medical personnel of the armed services both among themselves and with the Department of Pensions and National Health. Yet, at the same time, the reports that have come to me seem to indicate the lack of any overall plan and seem to indicate difficulties of which the minister may be more aware than I am in bringing about a real coordination of the medical services as among the armed services and between them and the minister's department. I would appreciate it if the minister would indicate whether any progress is being made in an endeavour to carry out the kind of recommendation to which I have referred, namely, that it should be clear, for example, in the hospitals under his supervision who is in charge when you have medical personnel of all the different armed services there, and whether any progress is being made in connection with the last suggestion in the recommendation which I quoted to the effect that some effort should be made to promote interlocking of service medical facilities.
I was hoping I might find somewhere in this national health survey report a point-blank recommendation that the medical services of the various armed services be united in one service, but I confess I do not find any such point-blank recommendation. There are, however, a number of recommendations such as
3084	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
the one I have read which imply that that would be a good idea, and the statements and reports that have been made to me by some w'ho are concerned about this matter are to the effect that that kind of thing ought to be done. I believe that the minister agrees with me as to the desirability of what I am arguing for, and I would appreciate it if he would indicate whether any progress is being made in that direction.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes, I can tell my hon. friend that substantial progress has been made since that report was made available. There is the closest possible liaison at the present time between the services and the department with reference to hospitalization. I believe they are giving us all the assistance they possibly can and we deeply appreciate the cooperation we have received. The medical services of the armed forces have been most cooperative in every way.


Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: As an old footslogger myself I should like to ask the minister whether the disease called callosity is covered by the Pension Act in this war.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: For the first time to-day I am stumped.


George Alexander Cruickshank: In case the minister is not familiar with the medical term callosity is the medical description of calluses caused by sitting too long on hard chairs.


Frederick Clayton Casselman: May I ask what progress has been made in establishing a convalescent home in Edmonton?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I do not think there is any convalescent home as such in Edmonton, but my hon. friend is aware, of course, of the two wings to the hospital. We have no convalescent homes anywhere except that we have started two for veterans' domiciliary care, accommodating from eighty to a hundred, one in Toronto and the other in Vancouver. They may have to be extended across the country, but nothing has been decided as yet.


Frederick Clayton Casselman: I understood that government house at Edmonton was being taken over.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is under consideration at the present time.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Detention allowances on behalf of Canadian seamen, $100,000.
John Ritchie MacNicol: A night or two ago the Minister of Fisheries was before us and had
an item for pensions and other benefits for seamen and fishermen. Does this item cover a similar service?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The object of this item is to provide an allowance to Canadian seamen and their dependents who are detained in enemy or foreign country due to enemy action, as authorized by order in council P.C. 12/4209 of June 12, 1941. There was expended in 1941-42, $52,971.31; in 1942-43, $58,264.27, and in 1943-44 to March 31, $369,716.10. A large portion of the allowances is being retained to the credit of these men, and will be payable when they are released from enemy custody and returned to their own country.


John Ritchie MacNicol: These men are at present detained in the harbours or ports of Germany?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Payments are being made to their dependents.


John Ritchie MacNicol: And what is done with the balance ?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It is placed in trust.


Stanley Howard Knowles: If I may revert to the previous item for a moment, under what act or authority are pensions to fishermen and seamen paid as itemized in the previous vote?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is under a special order in council.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Their position being similar to that of the seamen to whom the minister has just referred?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Health branch-
Civil defence, $1,038,500.
John Ritchie MacNicol: We want to help the minister along, but we need some explanation. What is embraced in this item of $1,038,500 for civil defence under health?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The amount estimated is $1,038,500. Last year the amount was $3,543,650, to provide for organization of protective services in areas in Canada deemed subject to enemy visitations by air and sea, purchase of suitable equipment, such as anti-gas clothing and masks-


Gordon Graydon: A.R.P.?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes. The new name is "civil defence". It has been changed, with the consent of the war

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
cabinet and chiefs of staff, since Brigadier General Alex. Ross took over, to correspond with the name in other countries.


Gordon Graydon: That explains it?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Industrial hygiene, including inspection of industrial plants, $31,000.
John Ritchie MacNicol: Each province has its own inspection department in connection with industries. What industries are inspected by dominion government inspectors under this /ote?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It is the object of this item to provide for salaries of personnel and cost of inspection of the laboratory services arising from the inspection of war contract premises under the authority of order in council P.C. 1550 of March 2, 1942.


John Ritchie MacNicol: But at the same time has each province not its own inspectors? Ontario has.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: This has to do entirely with dominion government war contracts.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I realize that, but the Ontario government inspectors still must go into these plants working on government war contracts. Are we to have two sets of inspectors inspecting the same plants?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Under the order in council I cited, the definite responsibility is placed on the Minister of Pensions and National Health to see that this inspection work is carried out. (It is a definite obligation.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Well, the Ontario government inspectors cover the same plants in Ontario.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am not definite on that point, but I do not think so.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Processing, storage and distribution of blood for transfusion, $565,000.
Gordon Graydon: I think this is one part of the minister's estimates as to which we ought to have a short statement from him. In practically every community in Canada the practice of blood donations has taken root. There is scarcely any phase of civilian war work in which our citizens take a greater interest and concern and, may I say, a greater pride. As the minister knows, there are to-day scattered throughout Canada these facilities
and these opportunities, which have been readily and willingly grasped by the civilian population in order that they may take their share in helping to fight the battles of the nation. The hon. member for Davenport mentions the sacrifice which has been made and the service which has been given as constituting a good deal of expense to those who are involved. In addition to the expense factor, I would say that the sacrifice and the service which people engaged in this work are rendering is exciting the interest of the public generally. I think the minister might take a little time to indicate the extent of the work and what is being done under this very important branch of our war effort.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I entirely agree with the remarks of the leader of the opposition. No tribute can be too high to those who are carrying out this splendid service for the nation. The details are: first of all, processing, storage and distribution of blood for transfusion, Connaught laboratories, Toronto, 1944-45, $500,000. The approved estimate for last year was $520,000. The [DOT] object, as we all know, is to provide for the purchase, installation and maintenance of laboratory equipment by the Connaught Laboratories, university of Toronto, and to meet the cost of operation and expenses involved in the processing of blood in the Connaught Laboratories. The expenditure in 1941-42 was $100,840.46; 1942-43, $174,173.94; 1943-44 to the end of March, $512,572.56. The detail of the expenditure in 1943-44 was: capital expenditure, $81,541.76; consumable supplies, $240,203.56; operation and maintenance, $190,827.24; total, $512,572.56. The details of the estimate of this year are: consumable supplies, $300,000; operation and maintenance, $200,000. Then, when we come to the processing of blood at the university of Montreal, the amount submitted is $200,000. That was increased from the first estimate to provide for payments to Montreal university to meet operation and maintenance expenses involved in the processing of blood for distribution by the dominion government services; authority order in council P.C. 128 of January 7, 1943. Expenditure to January 31, 1944, $58,203.32. Detail of expenditure: capital expenditure, $36,232.18; operating expenses, $21,971.14.


Gordon Graydon: Has the minister any figures as to the amount which was donated?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I should have.


Gordon Graydon: It would be interesting to have that information, if the minister is able to provide it.
3086	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Pensions and Health


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Montreal university, out of the estimated capital expenditure and operating expenses lor the twelve months' period, production capacity, first -[DOT]semester, is estimated to be 800 bottles a week; second semester, estimate, 1,500 bottles a week.


Mr. STIRLING:: Does this cover the cost of collecting it from all over Canada?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is done by the Red Cross organization.


Ernest Edward Perley: How many blood donors are there throughout Canada?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It has already exceeded 22,000 a week.


Ernest Edward Perley: I know that as far as the west is concerned the people are enthusiastic about this, and there is not any trouble at all in securing the number of volunteers to go to the hospitals for this service. When I was home at Easter time there was a man from our town, eighty-one years of age, who insisted on being a donor.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The order in council which recites the facts was passed on May 9. In regard to the university providing for the processing, storage and distribution of blood, by order in council of April 27, 1944, the following expenditures were authorized, it being stated that the Canadian Red Cross Society anticipates a greatly increased output of processed blood during this fiscal year 1944-45 as compared with that of the previous fiscal year, and has submitted estimates based on a maximum of 25,000 a week.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That is throughout
Canada?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Can the minister tell us if it makes any difference from what colour of person blood is taken? Is there any difference in the blood of various races, whether white, red, black or any other shade?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Or Scotch or English?


John Ritchie MacNicol: The reason I ask is that I read in an article that there is not any difference, that blood of persons of different colours can be mixed, and that it does not matter what the colour of the donor is. Somebody ought to know.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The hon. member for Medicine Hat can, I am sure, answer that question.
'Mr. Graydon ]


Mr. GERSHAW:: If they conform to the same types. There are four different blood classifications or classes. There is no specific difference in the character of the blood between a dark and a white person.


Gordon Graydon: Is this the new parliamentary assistant?


Mr. NICHOLSON:: The leader of the
opposition has expressed the general sentiment that the Canadian people have fully cooperated in this service. Would the minister give us. some information as to whether this vote provides for publicity work, or is publicity taken care of by the Red Cross?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No publicity is provided for under this vote.


John Horne Blackmore: Is the response providing all the blood that is needed?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Of course, we are asking for more donors all the time and the efforts of the people have been most laudable. There is always a demand for more blood, and in view of what may soon be happening, that demand will be still greater in the next few months.


Gordon Graydon: If the Red Cross or the government knew what the demand would be they would be in a better position to make a statement in regard to the supply.


John Horne Blackmore: Has the minister found the grant adequate for the needs?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: So far we have, yes. We have always been able to meet the demands made on us from time to time, but if we needed something in an emergency, we could ask for an emergency grant and we would not have any difficulty getting it for this sacred purpose.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Is the work done by the officials where blood is being donated voluntary work, or are these officials paid?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Are all volunteers, except a very few trained personnel.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am glad to hear that.
I was in a small town in Ontario recently, a town that forms the centre for quite a community of townships and smaller villages round-about, and the people were coming into that town to donate blood. There seemed to be a rivalry between smaller communities adjacent to or near the town as to which one would supply the greatest number of donors. The Canadian people have demonstrated that they are most generous in contributing blood, and they have done such a wonderful work, from which such splendid results have been

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
obtained, that in my opinion the minister should make a public statement in the strongest terms in appreciation of the Canadian people! The work is all voluntary and a good deal of it is done at the expense of the people themselves. Many of them come from quite a distance to donate their blood.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I thank the hon. member for his remark.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Maintenance, medical and other care of incapacitated non-resident seamen pending deportation, $50,000.
Grote Stirling: Would the minister describe what this is for?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The amount this year is $50,000. Last year it was $40,000. The object is to provide for the cost of medical care and maintenance of seamen, non-residents of Canada, who have become incapacitated and who will be deported when possible under the authority of T. B. minute 20/7149 of May 9, 1941. Last year the expenditure was $33,522.01. There are at present detained in hospitals thirty^four seamen and under present conditions the number is likely to grow, since there are no means of returning them to their native countries. The cost of maintaining an ordinary patient is $1,000 per annum, and a mental patient costs around $500. Fifteen of the number are in mental institutions, and 110 have received treatment under this authority since the commencement.


John Horne Blackmore: How many seamen of this class are in Canada?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There are 110 who have received treatment since the commencement, and there are thirty-four at present in hospitals.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Grant to the Canadian Nurses' Association to increase the supply of qualified nurses in Canada, $250,000.
Stanley Howard Knowles: We all recognize that
this work is exceedingly worth while. But could the minister indicate the ways in which the money is spent by the association? Perhaps I might take a moment to call the attention of the minister's colleague, the Minister of National Revenue (Mr. Gibson), to this item. We shall come to it again on a subsequent occasion; but, as he knows, a great many parents of nurses feel keenly over the fact that, while nurses are needed, and funds are provided to encourage young women to go in for nursing training, yet they are not 100-194
allowed that exemption under the income tax regulations afforded those who have sons or daughters in educational institutions.


Mr. GIBSON:: The matter has been brought to the attention of the Minister of Finance and I know he is giving it consideration at the present time.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I am glad to hear that.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The object is to provide, subject to the approval of the governor general in council, certain grants to the Canadian Nurses' Association, for the purpose of increasing the supply of nurses in Canada. The 1942-43 grants were authorized by order in council 72/6073 of July 16, 1942, and the 1943-44 grants were authorized by the war appropriation bill. The expenditures for 1942-43 were $115,000, and for 1943-44. to the end of March, $200,000.
The details of the estimates now submitted
are:
Administration	 $ 25,000
Recruitment of students and training
student nurses	 155,000
Supervisors and teachers	 40,000
Department of nursing in universities, public health nursing organizations.	30,000


Dorise Winifred Nielsen: How many probationist nurses entered training this year, and is the number sufficient to cover the needs?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The following figures have been obtained recently and are indicative of some of the accomplishments. In February, 1944, 11,359 student nurses enrolled in 175 approved schools as compared with 10,759 student nurses in 173 approved schools in 1943 and approximately 8,500 in 179 schools in 1939. This shows an increase in enrolment of approximately 2,850 students since 1939. The number of graduate nurses enrolled for the full year's course at universities during 1943-44 is 272 as compared with 262 in 1942-43 and 196 in 1938-39. In addition to this number, over 562 nurses have enrolled for shorter courses given at the universities and hospitals as special war-time programmes. These courses have varied in length but are in addition to the shorter refresher courses organized in many districts in various provinces. These are some of the tangible benefits resulting from the assistance received from the federal government. It is realized that the programme initiated through the grant has done much to stabilize nursing services and has strengthened morale. This information comes from the general secretary of the nurses' association.


Dorise Winifred Nielsen: I think the figures given are impressive, but when we consider that immediately after the war, or as soon as possible thereafter, we shall be inaugurating a



B1YISED EDITION

[Stage Direction]
3088	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
health scheme in Canada and nurses will be needed for rural areas, would this not seem to be the right time to afford opportunities for more girls leaving our high schools who desire to go in for training as nurses? They are going into the nursing profession from grade twelve in many cases and it takes a few years for them to become qualified. Their parents are not in a position to give them the assistance they need and it seems to me that we might provide them with a small supplement. There are a great number of girls who would like to take up the nursing profession but whose parents cannot afford the necessary funds.
Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I may tell my hon. friend that we have definitely in mind training some of the girls now serving with the forces; I have forgotten the exact number, but it is quite considerable. They will be entitled to vocational benefits while taking courses which will qualify them for nursing work, and I am sure they will give excellent service to Canada both now and in post-war days.


Gordon Graydon: I should like to pay a tribute to the nursing sisters both overseas and in Canada. Perhaps they have not been given the recognition they deserve, in connection with both the last war and this war, and we should not let this item pass without a word in appreciation of the services performed by these most estimable people. The nursing profession does a quiet, effective and useful job in time of peace, and in time of war performs even greater services and more useful tasks, but seldom receives public recognition of its work. Therefore I should think this committee would want something on record as expressing our appreciation of the work of the nursing sisters both in the war areas and in civilian activity. The same difficulty has been experienced in connection with nurses as in connection with doctors; that is, as the minister knows, there has been a very great shortage. This has meant that nurses have had to work long hours. Many of them, I know, have gone without holidays for two or three years, working almost every day without any respite whatever. I believe that we should pay our tribute as a parliament to the work of these estimable women to whom we owe a debt of gratitude for the work they are performing in behalf of both our civilian population and our armed forces.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I agree with every word the leader of the opposition has said. We have seen the work of our nurses in the last war, in the days of peace, and again in the present great conflict, and the service they have rendered to our forces and to Canada as a whole could not be surpassed.


John Horne Blackmore: The minister read a list of figures which indicated that the number of nurses in training had greatly increased. Could he give us some idea of how the expenditure of this sum of money has contributed to that increase?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It has contributed both directly and indirectly, I would say. According to the memorandum before me, the need for more graduate nurses and specialists has increased, so that it was decided to increase the grant to the Canadian Nurses' Association, as follows:
(a)	$25,000 for administration, to increase the campaign for recruitment of student nurses, and for increased publicity;
(b)	$155,000 for direct assistance to schools of nursing to provide for increased registration.


John Horne Blackmore: Would the minister just elaborate on that item, to show how the money is spent in order to increase the number of nurses?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: We just make the grant, which at the end of the year is vouched for in a proper financial way by the association. We make the grant to the Canadian Nurses' association and they decide how it is to be allotted; then we are informed how every cent has been spent during the year. The memorandum continues:
The present grant did not permit assistance to many schools where such aid would have provided for larger registration. It is planned to increase the number of students in many more training schools as soon as money can be provided for increased training facilities.
(c)	$40,000 for scholarships. The need for specialists is increasing. The grant last year permitted forty-five scholarships, but this took care of only half the eligible and desirable applicants.
(d)	$30,000 for direct assistance to schools of nursing in universities and in public health organization in order to extend their facilities for giving post-graduate specialist training. Present facilities are taxed to capacity and direct aid will provide for an increased output
MAY 19, 1944	30S9
War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
of trained specialists. The method of distribution of the direct assistance to teaching institutions and universities is subject to the approval of the department.


John Horne Blackmore: The minister indicated that lie had a statement from the nursing organization showing how the money had been spent. Would he mind giving that to the committee? I am not able to form a clear picture of just how this money would help to increase the number of nurses. Perhaps the minister would elaborate.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes. First I have the distribution of scholarships by provinces in 1942-43:
Alberta	 3
British Columbia	 3
Manitoba	 4
New Brunswick	 1
Nova Scotia	 1
Ontario	 1
Saskatchewan	 5


John Horne Blackmore: Are these scholarships given to high school students, or to nurses in training, or to nurses who have finished training in order to enable them to go on and take higher training? Just why are the scholarships given, and how do they assist in reaching the objective of increasing the number of nurses?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: We do not lay down the conditions under which these grants are made; the Canadian Nurses' association apply the grant as their best judgment dictates. The plan is then submitted to the department, and of course they account to us for everything that is spent. The scholarships are for graduate nurses deemed to be promising material as teachers, supervisors and administrators.


John Horne Blackmore: I was interested in just what this nursing association has told the minister as to how the money is spent.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I was just coming to that. The next item is the distribution of direct assistance to training schools in 1942-43:
Alberta	 $ 9,240
British Columbia	 9,900
Manitoba	 9,900
New Brunswick	 3,960
Nova Scotia	 6,600
Ontario	 11,900
Prince Edward Island	 2,000
Quebec	  11,900
Saskatchewan	 7,920

Deficiency to be made up by reducing
grant for last quarter where possible.. $3,4201


John Horne Blackmore: Has the grant made to-McGill university, for instance, definitely increased the number of nurses in training; and just how has it increased that number? What guarantee have we that it has actually done so?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: As far as we are concerned in the department, we just make the grant to the nurses' association after approval of their submitted programme; it is for a most worthy purpose. I have a long letter in which they tell us exactly how they carried out the work. I just read part of it; I can read it all if necessary.


John Horne Blackmore: Ordinarily I do not ask questions of this sort, but I do believe it is the duty of members of parliament, in the case of a grant as large as this, to probe into the matter to some extent just to make sure there is proper supervision of the expenditure of this money. I want to give the minister an opportunity to give us the statement.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: ' Later on, of course, there will be an audited' statement accounting for every cent that has been expended, but from my knowledge of the people in charge of this organization I can: assure my hon. friend that they are the most, worthy and most careful that could be found.


John Horne Blackmore: I am not questioning the people; I am just endeavouring to be businesslike in the conduct of the country's affairs.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: 1 have not an audited statement here.


Frederick Clayton Casselman: I believe the nurses' association is entitled to great credit for coming to the minister with a plan pretty well laid out as to how, by the expenditure of a certain sum of money, the number of girls entering the nursing profession can be increased. Grants were made for definite purposes to the hospitals where the training is
100-194)
3090	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
done, in order to increase the number of students they could handle, and also to enable further training to be carried on in the schools themselves. The heads of the nursing association are very able, and had a plan very well worked out when they brought it to the minister. I wonder if he would put that letter on the record? Perhaps he could put it on Hansard without reading it.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: With the permission of the committee.


John Horne Blackmore: I should like to have the minister read it. Most of us have more reading than we can possibly do.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It is as follows:
Information has now been received in this office on the expenditure of the projects made possible through the grant given by the federal government to the Canadian Nurses' Association 1943-44, as the result of the most generous support afforded by you and others in your department. On behalf of the Canadian Nurses' Association, I have been requested to forward a report on these to you. In submitting their report regarding expenditure of the allocations made to them, much appreciation is expressed by the registered nurses' association in each province.
You will recall that the grant was made to support the following objectives:
_ (1) The development of war-time programmes, including extensions of facilities for giving postgraduate courses, in departments and schools .of nursing in universities, also in public health .organizations;
(2)	Recruitment of students and their ^preparation;
(3)	Direct assistance to schools of nursing to tpr.ovide for increased registration;
(4)	Administration, including the work of the national adviser and general publicity;
(5)	Bursaries to assist nurses in taking postgraduate work and qualifying as teachers, supervisors and administrators.
With the exception - of the allocations for administration and bursaries, expenditures of the grant have been made through the provincial associations of registered nurses, subject to the recommendations of the Canadian Nurses' Association and the approval of your department.
The following is a brief summary of a number of projects which have been undertaken in the provinces, and notations on the results as [DOT]reported by them.
1.	In seven provinces travelling instructors have been employed: to give refresher courses [DOT]to nurses in order to bring them up to date, when this is necessary; these courses are of .special value, as many married and retired nurses have been taking advantage of them and .are giving very valuable assistance during the present crisis; to advise with staffs in hospitals and boards of directors regarding problems arising out of the present crisis; to promote recruitment of students through direct contact with high schools. The assistance given by travelling instructors has been declared to be of the greatest value, and has been characterized in one province by hospital representatives as

one of the most effective measures ever taken to assist small hospitals and to bring expert advice and suggestions to them in a time of need.


John Horne Blackmore: May I interrupt the minister there to express warm commendation of that particular project. That is something with which we can be thoroughly satisfied.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The letter continues:
2.	Additional instructors and supervisors in a number of schools of nursing and in some public health organizations throughout the dominion have been made possible through assistance given through the grant. They have made a fine contribution. It is very essential that the teaching staff should be strengthened, especially at this time, when in many instances provision must be made for an increased enrolment of students and all health organizations and institutions are working under great pressure. It is true, that at this time students are being required to assume greater responsibilities as graduate nurses have to be released for more advanced duties, therefore supervision is of special importance to safeguard the welfare of patients.
3.	Additional teaching facilities and equipment have also been provided in a number of schools of nursing in which increased enrolment has taken place.
4.	To meet the increased demand for nurses with special preparation, post-graduate courses have been extended and adjusted in universities, hospitals and public health organizations. A portion of the grant made to the provinces has been used for this purpose. Special courses have included refresher, extension, summer school courses and institutes, by which many nurses have been reached." In a number of instances the support of universities has made the organization of these courses possible.
In addition to the projects carried out by the grant to provinces, the support given in the form of bursaries to enable nurses to take post-graduate work has been of the greatest assistance. Not only has the number of nurses who are enrolled for courses at universities increased, but very favourable reports are received on the calibre of the nurses taking these courses and their contributions in the different fields of nursing upon the completion of the course. Although a total of 141 bursaries was awarded in 1943-44, only about fifty per cent of the applications could be granted. Of these twenty-one bursaries were awarded to Trench-speaking candidates.
Through the national adviser personal contacts were made in many of the provinces during the past year. A French associate adviser carries on activities from time to time as these are deemed necessary. The publicity campaign is being continued for the recruitment of students, and direct appeals are also being made to nurses to give service where this is most needed.
The Canadian Nurses' Association is proud to report that it is our understanding that there is no dearth of nurses applying to enlist with the armed forces. The demands for nursing service to meet civilian needs presents a more serious problem. As you are aware, The Canadian Nurses' Association has been making every effort to assist in meeting these

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
since the outbreak of war, and we can state with confidence that much has been done to overcome shortages which would not have been possible without the generous assistance received through the grant.
The following figures have been obtained recently and are indicative of some of the definite accomplishments:
In February, 1944, 11,359 student nurses were enrolled in 175 approved schools as compared with 10,759 in 173 schools in 1943, and approximately 8,500 students in 179 approved schools in 1939. This shows an increase in enrolment of approximately 2,850 students since 1939.
The number of graduate nurses enrolled for the full year's course at universities during 1943-44 is 272 as compared with 262 in 1942-43 and 196 in 1938-9. In addition to this number, oyer 562 nurses have enrolled for shorter courses given at universities and hospitals as special war-time programmes. These courses have varied in length, but are in addition to the shorter refresher courses organized in many districts in the various provinces.
These are some of the tangible benefits that can be reported as directly resulting from assistance received from the federal government. In addition it is realized that the programme initiated through the grant has done much to stabilize nursing service and to assist in strengthening morale in these difficult times.
On behalf of the Canadian Nurses' Association, Miss Lindeburgh, the president, wishes me to express again appreciation of the sympathetic hearing given to us at all times and of your continued support.
K. W. Ellis,
General Secretary.


John Horne Blackmore: Was not another letter mentioned?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It was a memorandum.


John Horne Blackmore: I am pleased with that letter. But can the minister tell us how many post-graduate courses were given nurses?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is a matter I would have to ask the Canadian nurses about. I believe the number exceeds 100.


John Horne Blackmore: In respect of a grant like this it would be easy for an institution to take a grant of money, apply it to general expenses and spend it without getting actual results. It would be well if we had a report to show that such had not been done.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I shall be glad to get a full report for my hon. friend, and present it when my main estimates are before the committee.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Does the Canadian
Nurses' association select candidates for refresher courses and university courses?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: So far as I know they do.


Douglas King Hazen: What hospitals in New
Brunswick receive part of this grant?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I shall have to get that information for my hon. friend.


John Horne Blackmore: The letter mentions that a number of post-graduate courses are given. How many are there?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I have not that information, but I will get it.


John Horne Blackmore: While I am quite
satisfied to take these statements on faith, I believe that if we are to do business in a businesslike way we should have it.
Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre).:
I shall be glad'rto get it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Contribution toward health services at Halifax, $45,000.
Stanley Howard Knowles: This is an item which we did not vote last year. But do I understand that this replaces an amount passed by order in council about, a year ago? If so, would the minister indicate what it was possible to do last year with that amount of money to meet the conditions reported to us respecting Halifax?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I do not. think any expenditure has been made up to the end of the fiscal year just completed.


John Horne Blackmore: Would the minister
give some details as to how this money is to be used? Is it necessary that this money be spent at Halifax rather than Saint John, for example, or Vancouver?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It has not been used yet. The order in council sets forth the purpose. Does my hon. friend wish me to read it?


John Horne Blackmore: It would be appropriate to this'matter and the minister might make a job of it.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It. reads:
Whereas by reason of exceptional circumstances of a highly extraordinary character arising out of the large movement of naval, air and military units and merchant seamen into and out of the city and port of Halifax and the extreme concentration in the area of enlisted and civilian personnel not ordinarily resident there, it is desirable and expedient that the dominion government should assume part of the cost of maintaining the essential health services of that city;
And whereas the outbreak of an epidemic or the development of other conditions inimical to the health of residents of the city of Halifax
3092	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
would seriously interfere with the overseas movement of troops and supplies and generally with the Canadian war effort;
And whereas in the opinion of officials of the Department of Pensions and National Health an average annual expenditure of approximately $100,000 is required in order to provide essential minimum standards of health services in the city of Halifax;
And whereas it is considered desirable for the dominion government to assist the city of Halifax in reaching this required expenditure by contributing an amount of $45,000 during the first year after the going into force of this [DOT]order, an amount of $15,000 during the second year, and thereafter an amount of $30,000 annually, toward the cost of health services in the city of Halifax for the duration of the present war and one year thereafter, provided that the municipal government of the city of Halifax continues to expend from municipal funds an amount of $70,000 annually, and provided further that the said Municipal government agrees to the conditions hereinafter attached to the payment of such assistance.
Now, therefore, His Excellency the Governor *General in Council, on the recommendation of the Minister of Pensions and National Health and under and by virtue of the War Measures Act. chapter 206, Revised Statutes of Canada 1927, is pleased to order and doth hereby order as follows:
1.	The Department of Pensions and National Health is hereby authorized to assist the city of Halifax, N.S., to improve municipal health conditions by the payment of an amount of $45,000 during the first year after the coming into force of this order and of an amount of $15,000 during the second year after the coming into force of this order and thereafter of an amount of $30,000 annually for the duration of the war and for one year thereafter, such payments or any of them to be made in the manner and with the provisos hereinafter set forth:
(a)	That such payments or parts thereof shall be made by the Department of Pensions and National Health to the minister of public health of the province of Nova Scotia for disbursement as prescribed herein to the municipal government of the city of Halifax and shall be expended in implementing such recommendations. in the report of the survey of health [DOT]conditions in the city of Halifax conducted by the international health division of the Rockefeller foundation and dated the 17th November, 1942, as may be agreed upon between the Minister of Pensions and National Health and the minister of public health of the province of Nova Scotia; and
(b)	That any such payments or parts thereof shall be made to the minister of public health of the province of Nova Scotia upon receipt of a joint certificate, acceptable to the chief [DOT]treasury officer of the Department of Pensions and National Health, from officers of the provincial department of public health and the provincial treasurer that the expenditures by the municipal government of the city of Halifax have been incurred in implementing the recommendations of the aforesaid report as agreed upon between the Minister of Pensions and National Health and the minister of public health of the province of Nova Scotia.
2.	The cost of carrying out this order shall be charged against funds provided from the wrar appropriation for these purposes, subject to the approval by the treasury board of the estimate

of cost, and allotment of funds in conformity with the terms of order in council P.C. 6695 of November 19, 1940.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The thing that puzzles me is not that we have been asked to vote this money but that it has not been spent.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is a matter entirely for the local authorities.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I recall that it was asked for last year because reports had been received that conditions in Halifax were pretty serious.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: We were asked for assistance, but accounts were not submitted.


Stanley Howard Knowles: In other words, you have had no request from the local authorities?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No.


John Horne Blackmore: Has the minister any idea why that is?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No, I have not.


John Horne Blackmore: The order in council seems to have viewed the matter quite seriously.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It was placed before us as a matter of great seriousness; otherwise we would not have passed this rather unusual order. It was represented to us that conditions were serious from the health point of view, mostly because of the movements in connection with the war effort of Canada. We arranged to give assistance but it has not been spent.


John Horne Blackmore: Are we to gather
from this that the provisions for the safeguarding of the health of the troops are not being taken?
Mr.	MACKENZIE	(Vancouver	Centre):
Measures may have been taken. That is a matter for the local authorities.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Is the minister referring
to the city or provincial authorities?
Mr.	MACKENZIE	(Vancouver	Centre):
Both.
Mr.	BLACKMORE:	This order in council
was passed originally as a result of a request from the authorities?
Mr.	MACKENZIE	(Vancouver	Centre):
Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Sundry services $43,480.

War Appropriation-Agriculture
John Horne Blackmore: What were the sundry services?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The details are:
Treatment of Canadian fishermen and
seamen	 $15,000
Analyses of food and	drugs	 10,000
Hire of boats	 14,400
Health unit-Prince	Rupert, B.C		4,080
Amount submitted for 1944-45.... $43,480
Approved estimate for 1943-44	 $30,680


John Horne Blackmore: I notice that once
more the money apparently was not expended.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The expenditures have been much smaller than the amounts voted. In the ease of treatment of Canadian fishermen and seamen, the amount submitted for 1944-45 was $15,000, and the approved estimate for 1943-44 was $1,000. The following expenditures were made:
1941- 42	 $560 50
1942- 43	 397 31
1943-	44 (to March 31, 1944)	 968 23


John Horne Blackmore: Could the minister
give us an idea of the kind of service given to these seamen? Was any money spent in connection with accidents?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It is to provide for the cost of treatment required by persons employed on ships of Canadian registry and Canadian salt water fishermen who require treatment as a result of enemy action or counter action against the enemy, who are not otherwise eligible for free treatment under the provisions of part V of the Canada Shipping Act, authority order in council, P.C. 3492, dated November 10, 1939. To provide also for the care and maintenance of indigent and disabled seamen returned to Canada due to sickness and disabilities incurred while serving on board merchant ships of allied nations in dangerous waters and for whom no other provision exists.


John Horne Blackmore: I gather that we had almost no accidents during last year.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Not otherwise provided for.


Clarence Gillis: Perhaps the minister will remember the case of a Canadian seaman I took up with him. This boy landed in Halifax and wound up in a mental institution, and he is still there as far as I know. In correspondence with the minister and the department I was given to understand that nothing could be done, but after listening to the details of this item I feel that something could have been done under it. When the father was negotiating
with the authorities in Halifax he was informed that if someone had provided the necessary funds the boy could have been taken to Halifax and given the proper treatment with the possibility that his health would have been restored.
To my mind this boy was definitely a war casualty since he served in the merchant marine for two and a half years. He had been at Crete and had undergone considerable bombing. To the best of my knowledge he is still in a mental institution. I mention this now because I think that under this vote something could have been done at least to give him a chance to regain his health.
While I am on my feet I should like to ask one more question. The minister will remember bill No. 5, which guaranteed the soldier the right to his job when he came back. The minister was on the canteen committee along with myself. When we discussed the bill I thought it was understood, or at least we intended it in that way, that the administration would rest with the Department of Pensions and National Health. I am wondering if that department has taken over the administration of this bill, or is it being taken care of by the Department of Labour? I have two cases I should like to bring up and I should like to know where to take them.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: At the present time it is administered by the Department of Labour, but the statute contains a provision that it may be administered by such minister as may be designated. The minister may be changed.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Agricultural supplies board-administration, $51,300.
Gordon Graydon: Mr. Chairman, in opening the agricultural items of the war appropriation resolution I should like to ask the minister if he is in position to give a general resume or review of the war-time activities of his department.


Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) :: Mr. Chairman, I had not intended to go into any detail with regard to the activities of the department in relation to the war appropriation, partly because we have already covered most of these activities in the discussions with regard to administration that we had when the regular estimates were before the committee. Matters having to do with the meat board, the previous bacon board, and with the agricultural supplies board, also some items relating to the special products board, and administration as related to the
War Appropriation-Agriculture

agricultural food board, were discussed quite fully when the ordinary estimates were before the house this session.
There have been only one or two important changes in the set-up in the department to handle matters having particularly to do with the war. In the first year of the war we set up the agricultural supplies board, with which this first item has to do. That board, it will be recalled, was made up of the deputy minister, the assistant deputy and the heads of the different divisions in the department. Those men laid out the plans for greater production very early in the war and have had charge of our production programme from that time down to the present. Under the board we have called together the representatives of the provincial governments and the representatives of farm organizations from time to time, and have had eleven conferences since the beginning of the war with those representatives to discuss the necessity for greater production of farm products. The plans laid out as a result of those conferences have been carried through by the farmers in the different parts of Canada. The activities of the board have to do with the different programmes which are enumerated on page 395 of Hansard of February 11, 1944.
So far as the meat board is concerned, we had in the earlier years of the war the bacon board, which handled bacon and ham and hog products marketed in Great Britain. That board entered into contracts with the British government under which we have supplied bacon and ham to Britain year by year since the beginning of the war until early in last year, when the bacon board was changed to the meat board. The reason for the change was that a surplus of beef was beginning to show up on this market partly because the United States market had been closed earlier in order to supply the shortage on the Canadian market. Early last year when we began to see signs of the development of a surplus of beef on the Canadian market, preparations were made for the marketing of our surplus beef in Britain. A very considerable amount of beef has been marketed in Great Britain since then down to the present time. The change in name simply meant that the meat board was prepared to enter into agreements covering not only bacon and ham and hog products but beef as well, also mutton and lamb, and we have been shipping these products to Britain now for some considerable time.
The one outstanding change was made a year ago when the agricultural food board was set up. That is the last item in this vote. The food board is headed by the deputy minister of the department and contains other

representatives, and associated with the board is an advisory committee composed of representatives from the different provinces and representatives named by the farm federation. That advisory committee meets from time to time and advises with regard to the handling of food products which are produced on farms.
The items in the war appropriation this year cover very much the same matters as were covered last year. They vary to some extent in accordance with the 'changed circumstances in relation to different food products, but I think those matters can be better discussed when we reach the different items.
There is considerable overlapping between the votes for war purposes and the votes in the regular estimates. That is to say, the same persons who administer the votes in the war estimates also administer the expenditure under the votes in the regular estimates, so that the fact that hon. members perhaps may not discuss on these estimates, certain matters in which they are interested would not, of course, preclude them from discussing them on the regular estimates. That is due to the fact that the next item to be discussed in the regular estimates is the vote for experimental farms, after which,. as hon. members know, come all the marketing votes, and those votes are associated with much the same kind of administration, with the same persons administering them, as the estimates now before the committee. I think that is all I care to say at the moment. Mr. Chairman, in submitting these estimates for the approval of the committee.


Mr. BURTON:: I wish to thank the minister
for giving us the background of this vote. I realize, of course, the minister's desire to have his estimates passed as quickly as possible. There may be other reasons operating-


James Garfield Gardiner: None whatever. I am going next Saturday night whether they are carried or not.


Joseph William Burton: I was going to assure the minister of my cooperation in getting his [DOT] items through.


Gordon Graydon: You must be wanting to get away too.


Joseph William Burton: The vote this year is five times as large as the vote last year. Therefore we should not be too hasty in approving it without a full explanation of the various items from the minister. I want it perfectly understood that I am not raising any objection to the vote being five times as large this year as it was last year, but coming from different

War Appropriation-Agriculture
parts of the country I think hon. members should familiarize themselves with the reasons for these appropriations being asked.
Since the beginning of the war those who have supplied the foodstuffs for this nation and the allied nations have been operating under very difficult circumstances. I should not like to have any member think that anything which the agricultural department has been able to do for these producers has been in the nature of doing something for nothing. I think the minister and many other hon. members will agree that those engaged in this country in the industry of agriculture have made a really worthwhile contribution to our war effort. In fact I feel so keenly about it that I would go so far as to say that for a number of years they were not given the proper recognition in the war effort of the nation.
When we come to where these items, as the minister said, seem to overlap, I wondered in which way he would prefer us to proceed with the various questions we want to discuss. Would he prefer to go on item by item and discuss each one, or would he prefer to have us give him lists of questions covering the various items and then deal with them at the conclusion? I assure the minister that my inquiry is made with a view of enabling him to pass the estimates in a reasonable time, and whichever way he would prefer, I am prepared to cooperate with him.
I might remark that I have a number of questions which, when I look at the page listing the items, cause me to wonder at what point they should properly be asked. For instance, at one place we find "freight assistance on western feed grains''; a little further down we find "subsidy on western wheat used exclusively as feed for live stock". WThat strikes me first of all is that to the ordinary person that might appear to be a subsidy for the western farmers. I submit that this would be the wrong deduction, because the western farmers could have disposed of all this feed grain in other markets at better prices than they have been able to obtain this way. If my analysis is correct, this is not a subsidy to the western farmers; it is really a subsidy to the farmers in the east. I do not raise any objection to that, but I should like to have the facts clearly understood. Too often we in the west have thrown at us the reproach of seeking hand-outs from the treasury. We in the west year after year have helped other parts of the country without their realizing that we were doing so. I repeat that we could have obtained more for our grain by delivering it in other markets. We are quite prepared to have it go where it is going; we 100-195
are quite willing to have people assisted by getting this grain, but I do not think it can be fairly said under the circumstances that we are receiving a subsidy.
There is another matter about which I wanted to inquire. This item, it seems to me, contains several overlapping parts. In one part I find "seeds administrator, administration, and seed programme". Several items further down we see "special products board: administration, and seed export office". I dc not know why they are separated or how they come to be separated in that way.
In connection with this seed programme, would the minister kindly explain what is undertaken in connection with it? I find that last year $180,000 was voted; this year $500,000 is required. Again I would make it clear that I am not objecting to the item, but I think we who represent different parts of the country should be able to tell our people what these items involve. As regards the export office, the amount is very small, but I should like to know how it is related to the other seed programme. As regards the item "assistance in disposal of agricultural products rendered surplus by the war," would the minister give us a fuller explanation than he did in his brief opening remarks?
Coming to the very last item, "subsidies to producers of food products, $47,600,000," may we have a little better break-down to show what this involves?
I conclude these few remarks by again
assuring the minister that I am seeking this information so that we shall be able properly and fully to explain these matters to the people whom we represent.


James Garfield Gardiner: With regard to the suggestion as to how we might proceed, probably it would facilitate matters if we took them item by item. The information is compiled in that way in the books which I have, and it would be much simpler and, I think, give better information if we were to go through them item by item, deal with each one, complete it, and then go on to the next.
As regards the general remarks having to do with the total expenditure, I think a general statement of explanation is all that need be made at present.
The items themselves indicate in a general way what the difference is. The outstanding difference which brings about an increase in
1944-45 as compared with 1943-44 is the one mentioned by the hon. member for Humboldt, namely $16,500,000 for freight assistance on western feed grains. .That, of course, is due to the fact that shipments are expected to be very heavy in connection with feed grains beginning with the first of the present financial

War Appropriation-Agriculture

year and extending on throughout this summer to the following winter. If shipments are heavy, very considerable expenditures will have to be made.
The subsidy on western wheat is another item which has been increased. That is owing to the greater amount of wheat which is being fed in the eastern part of Canada, particularly, at present and probably will continue to be fed over the remaining period of the war. We are paying a subsidy on the wheat which is being fed in the eastern and other parts of Canada. The reason for that is that we have a ceiling price set on the products which are produced through the feeding of live stock. There is a ceiling price on all dairy products and on meat consumed in Canada, and it is thought advisable to have a ceiling on the feed which enters into the production of it. Therefore a subsidj' is paid in connection with the wheat which is used for feeding purposes in the eastern part of Canada, payment for< that wheat being fixed at a price which makes possible the selling of meat and dairy products at the ceiling.
The next item which is dealt with is that of the seeds administrator and seeds administration-


John Horne Blackmore: Would the minister permit a question before he goes on? Is it so that a man who raises wheat, we will say in Saskatchewan, and feeds the wheat on his own farm to his own stock, is unable to have a subsidy on his own wheat, but that if he sells that wheat to his neighbour who does not raise any wheat, to feed stock, the neighbour can have the subsidy?


James Garfield Gardiner: The subsidy is paid to persons who have not a permit book for the marketing of wheat. If a person does market wheat and also tries to buy wheat he, of course, does not get the subsidy, the reason being that if he had fed the wheat in the first instance it. would not have been necessary for him to buy it and if paid in that way it would be an inducement to everyone to sell his own wheat and buy someone else's. The subsidy could not be paid in that manner. The subsidy is paid to persons who are not marketing any wheat.


Joseph William Burton: I realize that there is a
difficulty such as the minister mentions, but I was wondering whether the minister had given consideration to what the hon. member for Lethbridge said. On many of the farms in western Canada especially, there are hundreds of people who have increased live stock production at the request of the department, knowing it was for the benefit of the country. They did. this, and yet at the same time they are producing wheat and

using for feed a lot of that wheat which otherwise was more or less a nuisance for the time being on the hands of the government. Yet they are in the position which the hon. member for Lethbridge pointed out. I was wondering, therefore, whether the minister had given any thought to the question as to whether help could be given to the people in that way without doing what he mentioned a little while ago.


James Garfield Gardiner: Considerable thought
has been given to it, but no practical way has been found of doing'that kind of thing. I do not know how you would keep the records or how you would handle it. We have given considerable thought to the question, but up to the moment no way has been found of making payments of that kind.


John Horne Blackmore: As matters now stand, the man who raise's his wheat and feeds that wheat to his own stock is deprived of the assistance which is readily given to the man who does not raise his own wheat but buys wheat and raises his stock. It means that the man who is raising his own wheat and feeding his own stock is being penalized and put at a disadvantage in comparison with the other.


Robert Fair: Is there anything to prevent
the government from paying the subsidy to a man who grows wheat and feeds it, apart from the system of accounting?


James Garfield Gardiner: There is a reason why it should not be done, but we are experiencing such great difficulty in administering the payments even in connection with oats and barley that we shall have to institute a great many prosecutions. It has been found most difficult, and I am afraid that if we cannot get any greater cooperation than we have had, that kind of payment will have to be discontinued too, because the reports that come from all parts of the country are to the effect that it is being greatly abused.


Ernest Edward Perley: In connection with coarse grain?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes.


Ernest Edward Perley: How is it being abused?


James Garfield Gardiner: There is only one way in which it can be abused, namely, by the elevator operators not keeping proper records in connection with the weights that go through their elevators.


Robert Fair: In my opinion, a number of the subsidies that are paid are misnamed. The subsidy is actually a portion of what the people should receive in the prices of the

Welcome to Prime Minister
produce they have to sell, because farm produce is selling at far below the cost at which it should be sold.


Ernest Edward Perley: Did not most of this feed wheat come east?


James Garfield Gardiner: There is no difficulty such as I have been speaking of in connection with wheat coming east. Most of the amount is paid on wheat that came east, but there are cases where wheat is purchased by feeders in the west-they may not be farmers but commercial feeders-and they get the same kind of treatment as the man who buys it in the east.


Ernest Edward Perley: It is getting rather late and I had a few remarks to make.


James Garfield Gardiner: I think I should finish the statement I was making in answer to the hon. member for Humboldt. I was going to say that there is a considerable increase in connection with the seed programmes. We can go into details in that connection when we come to the item. That has to do with encouraging people to produce seeds for which probably there will not be a commercial sale. We have been inducing farmers to produce seeds, some garden seeds and some for production of plants from which we can get rubber, and other plants of that kind, and in the seed programmes, providing seeds for these purposes, there is a possibility that there will not be a commercial market apart from the market the government provides. I shall come to that as we go through the different items, and give further explanations in regard to it.
The other outstanding item is the last one of [DOT]547,600,000. That is a new item, and it is new because the food board was set up a year ago and that setting up of the board was to provide payment of producer subsidies. Those subsidies are on milk products of different kinds and on many of the other food products which we can deal with again in detail when we come to the item. These are the chief increases throughout the items which account for the fact that we have $73,666,070 this year as against $14,240,309 a year ago.


Ernest Edward Perley: Outside the three items, the estimate is considerably less, about $10,000 less than last year.


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes.
Progress reported.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Monday, May 22, 1944