1944-05-29

Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement in regard to pensions for the aged and the blind.
As a result of negotiations with the provinces extending over several months, agreement has been reached on a number of changes in the administration of this scheme. I now wish to table two orders in council which have been passed implementing these changes. Before

Old Age and Blind Pensions
the new proposals become operative, a supplementary agreement must be entered into with each of the provinces. However, it is expected that in view of the provincial agreement to the substance of these changes, there will be no delay in the execution of these agreements. The effective date of their coming into force will be April 1, 1944, or such later date in the case of any province as may be desired by that province.
The most important change increases the amount of allowable outside income which a pensioner may have. When the maximum amount of pension \vas increased in 1943 from $240 to $300 a year, the maximum total income which a pensioner could have from all sources was allowed to remain at $365 a year. The allowable income from sources other than old age pension was therefore reduced from $125 to $65 a year. With the consent of the provinces, we are now providing for an increase in the maximum income which a pensioner may receive from $365 to $425 a year. In other words, the pensioner will be allowed other income of $125 a year instead of $65 a year, without a reduction in the amount of his pension. The maximum income allowed blind pensioners will also be increased by the amount of $60 a year.
While the amendment will not increase the maximum pension of $300 a year, it will benefit pensioners with small incomes who could not previously qualify for the increase in pension granted in 1943. Those who are now receiving an old age pension at the maximum rate of $25 a month would not be entitled to receive an increase in the amount of their pension, unless by way of supplemental allowances which are now being paid in certain provinces.
Other amendments are intended to meet as far as may be practicable under the present law the difficulties arising out of the residence qualifications. Certain of the existing regulations were causing disappointment and difficulty for pension applicants who for various reasons had been outside of Canada for extended periods or had found it necessary to transfer their residence from one part of Canada to another. One proposed change will enable an applicant who failed to qualify with the sixteen years' residence requirement between the ages of fifty and seventy, in the case of an applicant for an old age pension, and between the ages of twenty and forty in the case of an applicant for a blind pension, to make up the deficiency by a further period of residence in Canada equal to the deficiency. Under the old regulations in some extreme cases he might have had to wait sixteen full years following his return to Canada before
he qualified for a pension. Another proposed change will eliminate the necessity of an applicant who has recently moved to a new province returning to the province of previous residence for the sole purpose of applying for a pension.
Other cases of difficulty with regard to the residence requirement were found in instances of temporary absence from Canada as a result of service on ships or in fishing. The new regulation will permit such periods of temporary absence to count as residence in Canada provided the applicant maintained a self-contained domestic establishment in Canada during such periods.
Some weeks ago the house was advised that although there had been in the past certain legal doubt as to whether the clause relating to recoveries from estates of deceased pensioners was mandatory or permissive in its effect, the dominion in accordance with later -legal advice had indicated to the provincial pension authorities that whether or not recovery should be made from estates where the net value does not exceed $2,000 would be left entirely to their discretion.
These changes represent the result of a very careful examination of the steps which the dominion would recommend to make the present legislation meet the immediate practical problems without radical revision of the whole scheme.
As the house will recall, the speech from the throne stated that the working out of a comprehensive national scheme of social security, in which federal and provincial activities will be integrated, will require further consultation and close cooperation with the provinces and indicated that the government would be prepared "when suitable agreements are reached with the provinces," to recommend a measure for a national scheme of contributory old age pensions on a more generous basis than that at present in operation.
The adoption of a national scheme of contributory old age pensions would involve a fundamental revision of our old age pension legislation. This must, of necessity, await the holding of the dominion-provincial conference.
In adopting a contributory system it will, in my opinion, be found advisable not only to increase the scale of pensions but to reduce the eligible age and to have the pensions paid as a matter of right rather than on the basis of a means test, which is an essential feature of the present scheme and the cause of most of its administrative difficulties.
Certain of the provinces would be agreeable to lowering the eligible age from seventy to sixty-five years immediately for the non-con-
Old Age and Blind Pensions

tributary pensions being paid under the present scheme. It is, however, very doubtful whether it would be possible to obtain the agreement of all the provinces to such a reduction of the eligible age under the present scheme, as this would be a very far-reaching change involving a substantial increase in the financial and administrative burdens upon the provinces. If nevertheless, all or substantially all the provinces should make representations to the dominion government in favour of lowering the eligible age from seventy to sixty-five years under the present scheme, I can assure the house that the government will be prepared to give consideration to the acceptance of such representations as an interim measure in anticipation of and pending discussions with the provinces regarding a contributory scheme.


Mr. GORDON GRAYDON (Leader of the Opposition):: May I ask whether the government has given consideration also to the position in which some older people appear to find themselves with respect to assigned pay and dependent's allowances? In some instances considerable hardship has been suffered by older people by reason of deductions in their old age : pensions because dependent's allowances and assigned pay have been granted them through some member of their families being in the armed forces. Will the minister look into that? I have in mind one particular case of extreme hardship, and that is what prompted me to ask the question.


James Lorimer Ilsley: If the hon. gentleman will let me have the case I shall look into it. *'The matter has been fully considered and explained on many occasions in the house.


Gordon Graydon: I shall be glad to do .that.


James Lorimer Ilsley: A change was made in the regulations some time ago.

On the orders of the day:


Mr. E. E. PERLEY (Qu'Appelle):: A very important announcement was made by the Minister of Finance with respect to pensions at the opening of to-day's sitting. I believe that sortie forecast of this announcement was made in Saskatchewan over the week-end. Before^ the announcement was made in this [DOT]house it was said in Saskatchewan that further consideration was being given to the matter. With what is going on in that province we might expect things like that to happen.


Gordon Graydon: Would the Minister of Finance make some comment on the question asked by the hon. member for Qu'Appelle

with respect to the premature notice given to the people of Saskatchewan in regard to the
changes in the old age pension regulations?


James Lorimer Ilsley: I certainly gave none. I gave no notice of any kind ahead of the notice in this house. In fact part of what I announced was not decided on until noon to-day; therefore it could not have been communicated to the electors of Saskatchewan.


Gordon Graydon: The other part might have been.


Ernest Edward Perley: Certain candidates have been peddling it for quite a few days.


James Lorimer Ilsley: What did they say? What have they been peddling?


Ernest Edward Perley: They have been visiting those who receive the old age pensions telling them what was likely to happen.


James Lorimer Ilsley: What did they tell them?



STATEMENT RESPECTING GOVERNMENT MARKETING AND PRICE POLICY

Hon. J. A. MacKINNON (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, on April 27 I reported to the house that the basis of wheat marketings for the 1944-45 crop year would have to be determined at a later date, when account could be taken of the development of the 1944-45 crop, the probable export and domestic demand, and the elevator space and transportation available for handling the 1944-45 grain crops. The government will be in a much better position in July to appraise these factors bearing on the need for delivery quotas and an over-all limitation on wheat deliveries from the 1944 crop. For the balance of the 1943-44 crop year, however, I wish to announce that the eighteen-bushel limitation per authorized acre will be removed forthwith.
In the spring of 1941 owing to lack of available storage and restricted export demand, the policy of limiting deliveries to estimated export and domestic demand for the ensuing crop year was instituted. This policy meant, in effect, that the dominion government would permit marketings of that quantity of wheat which could be disposed of within the crop year. In 1941-42 the limitation was set at 230,000,000 bushels for all of Canada; in 194243 the limitation was 280,000,000 bushels for the west, and for the present crop year 1943-44 deliveries in the west were first limited to fourteen bushels per authorized acre; later this figure was increased to eighteen bushels per authorized acre.

Grain Marketing and Price Policy
As members of the house know, during the past year the demand for Canadian wheat, both at home and abroad, has increased substantially. To date in the present crop year, commercial disappearance of Canadian wheat has amounted to about 350,000,000 bushels, as compared with 213,000,000 bushels for the same period last year. We conservatively estimate that commercial disappearance of Canadian wheat for the crop year 1943-44 will amount to 425,000,000 bushels, as compared with 270,000,000 bushels during 1942-43. From August 1, 1943, to May 19, 1944, producers in the prairie provinces marketed 230,000,000 bushels of wheat, or 120,000,000 bushels less than commercial demand for Canadian wheat during the crop year to date.
The Canadian wheat board carefully surveyed remaining farm stocks in the prairie provinces and estimate that producers will market about 265,000,000 bushels of wheat under the eighteen-bushel limitation, and about 305,000,000 bushels if the restriction on deliveries is removed for the balance of the crop year. In other words, with the restriction on deliveries removed for the balance of the crop year, marketings during the present crop year will still remain about 120,000,000 bushels less than commercial disappearance for the crop year.
Available storage space in country elevators has been increasing rapidly in recent months, and at the present time there is over 100,000,000 bushels of space available for the immediate delivery of grain in the three prairie provinces, and grain is being shipped out of country elevators at a rapid rate.
The government's decision removing the restriction on the marketing of wheat for the balance of the crop year is therefore based upon a careful appraisal of domestic and export demand and the storage situation which now exists in western Canada.


Mr. FAIR:: May I ask the minister whether the announcement he has just made removes the need for using our quota books at this time?


James Angus MacKinnon: The announcement is to the effect that the over-all restriction of eighteen bushels per authorized acre is removed.


Robert Fair: We will not use our quota books any more this season?


James Angus MacKinnon: The circumstances under which the quota books will still be needed this year will be if there is congestion at certain specified country elevators. In that case they will be needed until space is available.

On the orders of the day:


Ernest Edward Perley: The Minister of Trade and Commerce made a very important announcement when he said that restrictions would be removed for the 1943 crop. I am sure that will facilitate the farmers getting rid of a lot of the 1942 crop. I know that a lot of them still have it.
About ten days ago the minister made a statement with respect to participation certificate payments. He said that ten thousand went out in one mail. Could he tell the house now how many of the 1940 payments have been made and to what provinces they have gone?


James Angus MacKinnon: I am not just sure that I caught the hon. gentleman's questions correctly; there was considerable talking going on in this neighbourhood. I believe the question had to do with the participation payments that have gone out on the 1942 crop.


Ernest Edward Perley: No; the 1940 crop. The minister made a statement the other day to the effect that some ten thousand cheques had gone out in one mail. I should like to know how many have gone out since and to what province.


James Angus MacKinnon: I misunderstood or incorrectly heard the hon. member for Qu'Appelle. I thought he was asking about the 1942 crop. I was quite sure that he knew the payments on the 1942 crop would be a matter of the future. I did not make a statement that ten thousand cheques had gone out in one mail. I said that some ten thousand cheques were issued on the first day and a half. I can very easily inquire and find out actually how many cheques have been issued since. All I know at the moment is that the cheques are continuing to go out in volume. If the hon. member would like to know the exact number that have gone out I can quite easily get that for him.


Ernest Edward Perley: I should like to have that.



STRAWBERRIES


Mr. G. A. CRUICKSHANK (Fraser Valley):: Mr. Speaker, I desire to ask leave of the house to move, seconded by the hon. member for Vancouver North (Mr. Sinclair) the adjournment of the house to discuss a definite matter of urgent public importance namely, that the price set for strawberries in British Columbia by administration order A-1224,
3308	COMMONS
Strawberries-Prices in British Columbia
effective to-day, is so low that the farmers are unable to pick their berries and the crop is therefore going to waste.


Mr. SPEAKER:: The hon. member has
given me a statement of the reasons why he asks leave to move the adjournment of the house. I find that there is a degree of urgency* The hon. member for Fraser Valley moves, seconded by the hon. member for Vancouver North (Mr. Sinclair) for leave to adjourn the house on the grounds stated by him. Is it the pleasure of the house that the hon. member shall have leave to move the adjournment of the house?
And leave having been granted:


George Alexander Cruickshank: First of all I should like to point out that this does not concern just my riding; it concerns the whole province of British Columbia. It just happens that most of the berries and small fruits generally are in my riding.
I should like to point out to you, Mr. Speaker, and to the minister that the berry growers in my riding are not by any manner of means complaining of the action of the wartime prices and trade board in trying to control the cost of production and inflation; but we are emphatic in our opinion that deflation is far more important than inflation. While we approve the idea of controlling inflation, we certainly ask the minister to protect us as berry growers . from the deflation which we think will result from the board's order.
For the benefit of hon. members who are not familiar with small fruit growing I might explain that in the first place the land has to be of high quality, that it has to be very intensely cultivated and well and properly fertilized to get anything like a decent crop. In the province of British Columbia we arg faced with a higher original cost for our land, with higher taxes on that class of land than in any other part of the country, and with higher wages in connection with all branches of berry growing or other small fruit production. I presume hon. members are familiar with the figures set out in the order which goes into effect to-day.


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: What are they?


George Alexander Cruickshank: I will answer that question in a moment. I am moving the adjournment of the house to-day because I think it is quite obvious to every hon. member of the house that in connection with a perishable fruit of any kind, if remedial action is to be taken that must be done at once.
With respect to the order, the dominion is divided into three zones for the purposes of

the price ceiling. Ontario and Quebec are in zone 1, the maritimes are in zone 2, and British Columbia is in zone 3. Incidentally the figures for the maritimes are the same as those for British Columbia, so that I need only give the figures for Ontario and Quebec and British Columbia. Effective as of to-day the maximum price in zone 3 is 27 cents a quart, or 144 cents a pint-and I would point out to the house that in my province we deal in pints rather than quarts. That is the maximum price to the producer. For the same period the price to the consumer is set at 39 cents a quart or 22 cents a pint. After June 17 the farmer in British Columbia will be allowed only 12 cents a pint. We cannot possibly produce berries in my province at that rate. I do not want to weary the house any more than is necessary, but this is a matter of vital importance not only to the farmers but to the whole economic structure of British Columbia.
Incidentally I should like to say a word about deflation. This government has been very proud of what it has done under the Veterans' Land Act, about which I shall have something to say later; they are proud of what is to be done for the veterans when they come home. We have taken over some 750 Japanese farms in the province of British Columbia, which are being held for our veterans. All these farms were devoted to the production of berries prior to the evacuation of the Japanese, and no soldier can carry on at deflated prices. No member from British Columbia has been consulted, nor to the best of my knowledge has any organization of producers in that province been consulted by the board in arriving at these figures. In fairness to the board I must say that I think they want to do the right thing, as I know the minister wants to do the right thing for the farmers of British Columbia and every other part of Canada, but I do not think a sufficiently thorough study of the problem was made before setting the figures at which we are expected to produce.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What prices are you suggesting?


George Alexander Cruickshank: I shall come to that in a moment, and will carry New Brunswick with me, if my hon. friend will give me time. In 1943 the cost of production in British Columbia was 12-57 cents a pound, but effective as of to-day we are allowed only 14J cents a pound and after June 17 will be allowed only 12 cents. In the eastern part of British Columbia berries will not come to production until after June 17. In the Fraser valley and the lower mainland they will commence to

Strawberries-Prices in British Columbia
come into production about June 10. The dominion and provincial governments are not even opening their pickers hostel at Haney, in the heart of the Fraser valley fruit district, until June 10; yet this order is put into effect as of May 29. In passing I want to say that the selling figures I am giving are not my estimates; I am quoting the figures given by the gentleman whom I understand is in charge of this matter, Mr. E. J. Chambers, the administrator of fresh fruits and vegetables for the wartime prices and trade board. The production figures were prepared by a large berry cooperative.


An hon. MEMBER:: Mr. Chambers is from British Columbia.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Yes, and he is a very fine man, as are all men who come from British Columbia. In arriving at his figures he refers to the years 1938, 1939, 1940, and 1941. The approximate average for those four years, at the shipping point, was slightly over $1.60 per crate. I want the farmer members of this house, particularly, to think of that. This gentleman is basing the prices he is setting in the year 1944, with present cost of production, on the prices received by the Japanese farmers in the province of British Columbia. How can anyone expect a white farmer to operate under similar conditions? I do not say that the Japanese received enough; I know they did not, according to the figures given by the board. Again these are not my figures; they are quoted by the wartime prices and trade board. In 1941 the average price of berries per quart in the province of British Columbia was 8-9 cents. Can you imagine that?-8-9 cents for a quart of berries. In 1942 the price was 12 cents; in 1943 it was 33 cents, yet this year we are asked to produce for a maximum of 27 cents, though when we can get it we are paying hoeing labour 50 to 65 cents an hour. Last Saturday right in this city berries were selling at 59 cents a quart or 30 cents a pint.


Richard Burpee Hanson: They are imported.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I do not care
where they come from. I am getting a good deal of assistance from the hon. member for York-Sunbury, for which I am grateful. While berries are being imported and sold at this rate, we are not shipping. I wonder if any member of the wartime prices and trade board or any member of this house ever saw them picking strawberries for the first shipments. Why, in a field of strawberries the size of this room you would be extremely
lucky to get two crates of berries. That is no exaggeration; in order to get our berries [DOT]to that early market they have to be picked here, there and everywhere throughout the field, because only a few are ripe and in condition.
Another thing to be kept in mind is that unfortunately in British Columbia we are not heavily industrialized and do not have the large early market. We ship our berries largely to the prairie provinces, and in order to ship them over the mountains you must pick the berries at a certain stage and under certain weather conditions or they will not stand the trip. Apparently some people have the idea that we just turn the pickers loose with pails, but that is not the way they are picked in British Columbia. The berries must be sorted, graded and packed, and that all costs money. I presume it is the same in other parts of Canada, but I am speaking from my knowledge of British Columbia.
How they arrived at these prices, I do not know, but from their own statement they have used as a basis the average for the four years I mentioned. They also based it, as I understand it-and again there was no statement-on the assumption that they expected twenty per cent of our berries would be shipped by crate. I know, and every farmer member knows - probably there are some others who are not so familiar with the country-that we make our profits on crated berries, shipped to the higher priced market. This year, according to their own figures, the board states we will get an average of $3 a crate. They are working on the assumption, again according to their own statement, that we begin shipping on May 29-to-day. In eastern British Columbia they do not start until after the seventeenth, and in other parts until the twentieth. I do not blame the board for that, because no man alive can predict when we will ship, or how many we will ship, because the Lord Almighty attends to that. It is a perishable product, as we all know. But they base their price upon $2.88 as a maximum, and a rate of 12 cents a pint is allowed. There is a maximum amount of 14J cents a pint. They base their average of $3, according to their statement, on the assumption that the farmer will ship on May 29. Well, we are not by any means starting to ship at that time. They also base their average of $3 on the assumption that we are going to ship twenty per cent by crate. The actual facts are that 'last year the largest strawberry shippers in British Columbia shipped out of one of their freight centres exactly ten per cent in crates and ninety per cent in jam. Yet these

3310	COMMONS
Strawberries-Prices in British Columbia
geniuses down here in Ottawa can tell us that we are going to ship twenty per cent by crate, starting to-day, when the berries are not even ripe. That is the position they take, when actually last year we shipped only ten per cent. As hon. members know, when the berries are made into jam you get a very low price.
Last year the average cost of pickers in British Columbia was four cents a pint. That is the way we pay our pickers out there. We pay a basic rate of four cents, and a bonus for staying the whole season. I assume that that is done in other areas of Canada as well. Last year the average cost of production in British Columbia was 12-57 cents per pound. These figures are taken from the records of over 800 berry producers, and they have been averaged over that number. Therefore the figure I have given is last year's average cost. And mark this: I presume everyone know's that the average life of the strawberry plant is five years. In the first year they are planted there is no return to the farmer at all. Then, if you take in the cost of planting, cultivating, fertilizing, thinning, and all the other costs for the first year; hold off any allowance for rental of land, taxes, and add to that the cost of cultivating in the second year, it will be found that the average cost is 9-20 cents per pint. The maximum we are allowed at the rate set to-day is 12 cents.
I could give all sorts of statistics with respect to jam. However, I am prepared to prove my point before the board or anywhere else. I would like to point out that I, as a member for Fraser Valley, along with other members from British Columbia have been pressing this point since early in February. We have been insisting, in the first instance, that if a ceiling was to be placed on the berries we would oppose the ceiling, and I surely think it would be clear why we cannot have a ceiling on perishable goods such as strawberries which must be shipped across the mountains. If we had thought we were getting nowhere in preventing a ceiling being placed on berries, and that we would have had to wait until May 23 to have a ceiling announced, I wish to assure the minister he would not have had a solitary berry planted in the Fraser valley this year. Those berries would not have been planted if we had known that we had to sell them at 12 cents a pint or in other words, pay the consumer for consuming them.
I know it may be said that the board sets all these orders. I can understand perfectly well that if any branch of the government, or

any person connected with it, makes a mistake, the minister must assume responsibility for that mistake. In the long run the Prime Minister has to assume the responsibility for the mistakes of his ministers, and, to carry it even further, parliament has to look after the mistakes made by the Prime Minister and his government. I can see no earthly reason why any argument should be advanced against the minister's overruling the wartime prices and trade board. They are doing a very difficult job and, I believe in most cases, the board are doing very well. I give them credit for it. But I do say that when an injustice is being done it is the minister's duty to overrule.
I could give a typical example, in connection with banking. This matter came up before a committee which sits in another room in this building. They were-


Thomas Vien: Order; the hon. member should not make reference to that committee.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I withdraw that remark, Mr. Speaker. Then, I would ask the minister-and I believe I have ample support -to give further consideration to this matter. In conclusion I would point out that it is proper to criticize the minister or his department, if one has any suggestion to offer. We who represent the berry growers of the lower mainland-and I believe there are three members who are in that position-met the minister last Friday and made a suggestion to him. We thought we had made a reasonable suggestion, namely, that the dates of the various rates be retarded, a procedure which would have avoided upsetting the whole price structure that has been developed. In other words the rates would be held in abeyance. I am speaking from memory, but I think we suggested that the order be held in abeyance until June 15. It will go into effect to-day, but should be held in abeyance until that date at least. From June 15 to June 27 the rate would be 14J cents, I believe it was, and from there on it would be 12^ cents. In other words we offered a compromise.' We do not wish to make fortunes out of the berry crop, but on the other hand we do not want our farmers to be forced out of existence.


Mr. JAMES SINCLAIR (Vancouver North):: Mr. Speaker, on this occasion I speak more as a British Columbia member than as a member representing berry farmers. I have one small district in my constituency in which strawberries are grown. However this is a matter which affects a very large number of the berry farmers in British Columbia. I share an office with the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank) and since

Strawberries-Prices in British Columbia
last February I have been hearing about berries. Hon. members in the house have heard the hon. member for Fraser Valley repeatedly ask whether a ceiling price would be set on berries.
My first criticism as a British Columbia member is that if a ceiling was to be placed on the price of berries, there is no reason why it should not have been done two months ago. In this instance there is a no D-day, and no element of surprise is necessary. The farmers were entitled to know two months ago what their prices would be. They should have known two months before the ceiling was put on. As my hon. friend has said, they would not have planted strawberries if they had known they were going to be given 12 cents a pint, in view of the fact that last year their basic cost was 12-52 cents. It would appear that when the ceiling price was set, it was not set on last year's price, but rather on prices from 1938 to 1942. It must be remembered that in that period of time the great bulk of berry farmers in British Columbia were Japanese. Japanese produced berries at prices at which no white man could ever attempt to produce them. They worked from dawn to dusk for ten and eleven cents an hour as their basic rate of pay. To-day the berry farmers of British Columbia-when they can get labour- must pay 65 cents an hour.
I do not think the people of British Columbia are objecting to price control, but they are objecting to our farmers being legislated into bankruptcy by the action of the wartime prices and trade board. There was no consultation with any of the berry-growing group in British Columbia. Certainly no British Columbia member was tipped off or asked in advance what he thought of these prices. These men of the prices board sit in their ivory tower down here, suddenly set a price and say, "You can like it or lump it." Well, we are not going to like it or lump it. The only way we can object to the action taken by this board is to move the adjournment of the house to discuss a matter of immediate national importance. This matter is of immediate national importance. We members sitting in this house are able thus to bring before the house particulars of an act committed by this board which is legislating into bankruptcy the strawberry growers of British Columbia.


Mr. THOMAS REID (New Westminster):: Mr. Speaker, coming as I do from a district where there are a considerable number of strawberry growers I rise to join in the protests that have been made against the action taken by the wartime prices and trade board). I concur in what has been said by the two hon. members who have spoken. While to many
hon. members this matter may not seem to be one of national importance, I will point out that it affects the lives of many farmers. It would not have been brought before the house this afternoon had the representations madie to the minister been given heed to, but there is no other way to bring this grievance before the house than to stop its proceedings and point out forcibly to the government and the country what has been described by hon. members as an iniquity.
I do not intend to go into the matter too deeply at the moment, but I think it is well known that the attitude of the wartime prices and trade board has not been one of helping the farmer or keeping him in business. Donald Gordon, the chairman, has stated emphatically right from the time he first took office that he did not care what it cost the producer, that all that he and his officials were interested in was the price set. In this instance information about the price has been deliberately withheld from the public until almost the eve of the crop coming on the market. The prices board now comes along and notifies the people of British Columbia and elsewhere what the prices will be.
Let me give one or two reasons why we are protesting. The other hon. members who have spoken have pointed out why strawberries have continued to be grown in British Columbia. Previously the strawberry patches were mostly in the hands of the Japanese, and that meant that the father, the wife and all the family down to the smallest tots were working long hours. They were thus able to keep up their strawberry production at prices which would have permitted very few men or women to exist at all. Many of these farms were taken over after the evacuation of the Japanese. Although prices were low, they kept going up a little as the war progressed, and until this year no price ceiling on strawberries was put in effect by the prices board. The prices obtained for strawberries last year were almost twice what will be received this year. Even with the prices being asked last year, I did not hear one complaint. Why? Early strawberries are generally looked upon as luxuries and the people bought them without any great complaint.
To my mind it would be far better if people were able to eat more fresh strawberries than to have them put up into jam with the use of pectin. I have my own views as to the kind of jam that is going on the market today. However, I do not intend to discuss the jam situation at this time; I shall deal only with strawberries. If this order is carried into effect it will mean that many strawberry growers will say that they cannot carry on, and
3312	COMMONS
Strawberries-Prices in British Columbia
they will not do any transplanting this year. They will decide to go out of business, because they cannot continue at that price and make ends meet. Last year they were getting twice what they are going to get this year, and naturally they were encouraged to go on. I do not know of any strawberry grower who made a fortune. There is no crop that I know of that requires more labour, not only in the spring and summer but throughout twelve months of the year. I can speak from experience because I have hoed strawberry plants many times and I know something of the difficulties faced by these growers. We are appealing now to the minister to take some action and have this price changed in order that our farmers may have a chance. The suggestion made to the minister the other day was a very reasonable one. It may have been his nice smile, but I was carried away by the reception we got and I thought we were going to have good results. However, it shows that you cannot always tell when you go for an interview just what you are going to get. Apparently it was just a sliding out that we got. However, we realize he is placed in a difficult position. He is not a farmer; he does not know and he must depend upon what his officials tell him. When members representing these different districts come to him and lay the facts before him, their views should be listened to. I join my voice in protest against this order and ask that it be changed even at this late date.


Mr. R. W. MAYHEW (Victoria, B.C.):: Mr. Speaker, what we are witnessing to-day is due entirely to the fact that those who are setting our prices do not take into consideration the views of lion, members representing the different districts. This matter is not the sole responsibility of the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank) and I think the farmers of British Columbia will be indebted to him for bringing the matter up at this time. I am wholly in accord with what he and the other hon. members have said. The price being allowed for strawberries will not pay the cost of production.
While there are no strawberries grown in my district, they are grown, and have been grown successfully for a number of years, in Nanaimo, which adjoins my riding. It is on behalf of the strawberry growers of that district that I am speaking. I am sure that while the consumers would like to get berries as cheaply as possible, they would not want to get them below the actual cost of production. If the members from British Columbia who represent strawberry growing districts had been called in before this order was issued,

I am sure it would not have been put out in its present form. I hope this will be remembered in the future by the people who make out these orders. I was speaking to one man early in February and I told him that if a ceiling price was to be put on berries it should be announced in good time so that the people could make the necessary preparation. He said that that would be done, and yet we find this order announced just when the berries are about to be picked. At the present time there are a few berries being picked near Gordon Head and in Keating district, but they will soon be in full production all over. The price of 27 cents a quart which has been set is away below the cost of production.


Gordon Graydon: Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that there are one or two matters which might properly come within the purview of this discussion. Many of us in this house have urged year in and year out that agriculture should be properly represented on the boards and commissions which this government has set up. I think most hon. members who represent farming and agricultural districts will be in agreement with that statement.


James Lorimer Ilsley: There certainly was in this
case.


Gordon Graydon: I was just going to ask the question which the minister now purports to answer. What representation was there of the producers of this commodity on the board which set the prices in this order?


James Lorimer Ilsley: E. J. Chambers is administrator of fruits.


Gordon Graydon: The minister talks about E. J. Chambers being the representative of agriculture in the setting of these prices. May I ask him whether Mr. Chambers is a producer of strawberries?


James Lorimer Ilsley: I do not think so.


Gordon Graydon: I am quite sure that he is not, and when the minister suggests that civil servants are to be the representatives of the farmers in deciding costs of production and as to the general situation in connection with agriculture, I take issue with him.
I am not going into the merits of this particular case at the moment, except to say that I have listened with much interest and not a little sympathy to those who have spoken on the question brought up by the member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank). But I do want the minister to consider this one point,

Strawberries-Prices in British Columbia
which I emphasize even at the risk of repeating myself, that some of the difficulty which he is now experiencing could be rectified if the voice of agriculture were heard when these matters were being decided, and by the voice of agriculture I mean the voice of practical agriculturists, the producers themselves.
I have listened with interest to what has been said on the costs of production. I know that no member of this house has any desire to attack the general principle of the price ceiling or the anti-inflationary programme of the government, and I am quite sure that the government will not construe what has been said here to-day as an attack on those general principles. Nevertheless, under the price ceiling, or the price roof, if you like, many instances of injustice occur from time to time which the government rectifies. The government has accepted the principle of the rectification of injustices done under the price ceiling; and therefore I would ask no more than this, that the minister reconsider this whole question with his board, with a practical producer sitting in to consider the suggestions that have been made here to-day, and if they are found to be sound, then I think it is the duty of the government and of the board to eradicate such injustices as may be found.
I close by repeating what I have said many times before, that even at this late date I think the producers should have a proper representation on all the various governmental boards.


Robert Fair: Mr. Speaker, I am perhaps trespassing a little on the ground of the British Columbia members. I do not think they will object on this occasion, because while I am not engaged directly in growing berries I do like to eat strawberries, and as the hon. member for Victoria (Mr. Mayhew) said, I do not want to buy them at a price below that at which the growers can afford to produce them. I am speaking as an agriculturist in another branch of that industry, and judging by experiences in my own particular line of agriculture I feel that the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank) and his colleagues have just reason for complaint. Personally I have no complaint against the principle of price fixing, but I am not satisfied with the administration of the principle because in some cases no account whatsoever is taken of the costs of production of agricultural products.
I have here prices that were given me by one of the merchants in Lloydminster, a town on the border between Alberta and Saskatchewan. I was told only last winter before coming here in January that in 1941 strawberries were laid down f.o.b. Lloydminster at
S2.60 a crate, while in 1943 strawberries ran anywhere from S8 to $14 a crate. If the wartime prices and trade board would concentrate first of all on the costs to the producer they would be doing a good service by basing their prices on the actual average costs of production. They should also consider the price to the consumer, because I believe that injustices are being done both in the prices set to the producer and in the prices which the consumer has to pay. I want to support the member for Fraser Valley and his colleagues in the request they have made to-day.
Mr. T. J. O'NEILL (Kamloops): Mr. Speaker, I want to congratulate the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank) on bringing this question up and on the able manner in which he has presented it to the house. It is not my intention to detain the house very long, because I can only repeat what has already been said. I am completely in agreement with the hon. member for Vancouver North (Mr. Sinclair) when he says that the price of berries has been regulated this year on the cost of producing berries in the years when they were produced practically by slave labour in the Fraser valley. That is something to which consideration should be given. I think, too, with the hon. member for Victoria (Mr. Mayhew) that the prices have been set without any consultation either with the producers or with their representatives in the districts where the berries are produced. If such consultation had taken place I feel quite sure that prices would not have been set at their present levels. I am given to understand that there is a difference of three cents in the price of imported berries in Ontario and imported berries in British Columbia. But that is only hearsay; I do not know the facts. I think that the minister should give consideration to abolishing the whole order of the wartime prices and trade board with respect to these prices and start all over again.


Mr. G. E. L. MacKINNON (Kootenay East):: Mr. Speaker, it is not often that I rise to say anything in this house, but I would like to endorse what has already been said regarding the plight of the fruit growers in British Columbia. It is thirty-five years since I first went into the district of Kootenay, and in that time I have watched the Creston fruit area develop from a small handful of people to a population of five or six thousand. In those years I have listened to many harrowing tales of people who sold fruit as fine as any that ever grew out of doors and got nothing for it in return, and then had to dig down to pay for their boxes and crates. In the last few years conditions have

Strawberries-Prices in British Columbia
possibly been a little better. But the war has changed conditions again. Labour shortages and increased costs have put the producers in a position at least approaching the plight in w'hich they were a few years ago.
With regard to the date line of June 17 I wish to make this point. You can get on the train at Vancouver in what might be classed as summer weather and in twenty-four hours you are in the interior in the fag end of *winter; therefore I do not believe it is possible to set a date line that can be fairly applied to all districts in British Columbia. If June 17 is fair for the coast, it is certainly not fair for the interior. On Friday I had a telegram from the Creston district stating that mo berries would be ready for shipment on June 17.
In regard to the price, it was objected that $2.88 for a 24-pint crate is too small. They stated that it was questionable whether at that rate this crop would be picked, and certainly there would not be a crop next year.
I suggest that conditions of season and climate in British Columbia be taken into consideration. If June 17 is a fair date for the lower mainland and Vancouver island it is perfectly all right with me, but a later date should be set for the up-country fruit growers. Whatever date is agreed on for the lower mainland, I suggest that a date at least two weeks later be set for the interior.


Richard Burpee Hanson: No representations have been made to me by the strawberry growers of the Saint John valley, but I know that a very substantial amount of small fruit is grown in the counties of York, Sunbury and Queen's. Our climatic conditions are somewhat different from those in British Columbia. It will be learned with surprise by some members that our season is two or perhaps three weeks later than Ontario, and that our crop comes on at what might be termed the tail end of the season, at a time when the Ontario berries are nearly over and when the appetite of the public for strawberries is more or less satiated. So that our growers have always been under a very definite handicap. Their principal export market is in Montreal, where our early fruit has to meet the competition of the local product.
My suggestion is that, so far as that zone is concerned, there is no need at all of any price ceiling, and I should be glad of an opportunity to meet with Mr. Chambers, whom I do not know personally, and discuss the matter with him. I think the member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank) made a Substantial point when he suggested that, before these prices are fixed by an arbitrary 
board under powers delegated to them by the cabinet under the War Measures Act, somebody should come and see the local member and ascertain what his reaction is. He wishes to act fairly with both the producer and the consumer because his constituents are in both categories. I suggest that before an arbitrary rate is fixed something of this kind be done. I do not know anything about the situation in British Columbia, whether the price is fair or not, but courtesy itself seems to me to dictate that the local members in the areas affected might at least be asked their opinion. I am satisfied that with that judicial capacity which the member for Fraser Valley has so often exhibited in this house, he would do justice both to the producers and to the consumers in his constituency, and that is the attitude that I would desire to take myself.
Without having been instructed, but having a substantial knowledge of the conditions obtaining in New Brunswick, which I have endeavoured to outline, I am of the opinion that no price ceiling order is necessary at all for the maritime provinces. I am going to suggest to the minister that if he will be good enough to ask the officials in charge to have a chat with me, we could talk the matter over and I could get their point of view while I would endeavour if possible to give them my viewpoint.
They have definitely in New Brunswick promoted the production and sale of small fruits. We have an overnight market to the city of Montreal. With gasoline restrictions such as they are, the truck distribution is not as good as it used to be. A great deal of this fruit was handled by trucks in days gone by. That is not so important, of course, for export, but it is very important for distribution in other parts of the provinces. There are counties in New Brunswick that do not grow strawberries at all, just as there are counties in that province that do not grow apples. Most of the apple crop in New Brunswick is grown in the three counties to which I have referred, York, Sunbury and Queens, and their best market is the market of the adjacent counties where they do not grow apples. The same is true of strawberries.
I have an open mind on the subject of prices if there is to be fixing of prices, but my immediate reaction is that there is no necessity at all for a price ceiling on strawberries in New Brunswick. I should like to see it abolished and I should be glad if the minister would see that the gentleman in charge of this problem-and of course I suppose it is a problem, more acute in British Columbia than elsewhere-would speak to me about it. We might arrive at certain conclusions, or at least agree to disagree.

Strawberries-Prices in British Columbia


Mr. W. K. ESLING (Kootenay West):: Hon., members from the coast have been energetic in presenting to the government the inequalities of these marketing orders in regard to berries, and certainly the member for Kootenay East (Mr. MacKinnon) has made a perfect presentation of the local conditions. The wartime prices and trade board have simply brought in a blanket order covering the four western provinces with absolutely no consideration and no proper knowledge of local conditions.
The conditions at the coast are very different from those in Ontario. The conditions in Kootenay East are considerably different from those in Kootenay West. We do not have the competition of Japanese labour as it previously existed, but we have had such competition and such disregard for labour and wages from the Doukhobors as to have discouraged considerably the growing of strawberries in the interior. Many times, as the member for Kootenay East says, the growers do not get back the return for crates alone, and it is discouraging not only for local marketing but for shipping.
I am sure that after the presentations that have been made by British Columbia members the government will see that some consideration is given to the interior growers so that they may get at least a return which will pay them for their labour and for the material involved in crating.


Mr. DANIEL McIVOR (Fort William):: I have a relative who went into the berry business at Chilliwack three years ago and he was glad to get clear of it at a considerable loss for the reason that the cost of labour was high, the price of the berries was low, and there was unequal competition with the Japanese. We were told yesterday some place that if one part of the body suffers, the whole body suffers with it; and if one province suffers the whole of Canada suffers with it.


Mr. B. M. HILL (Charlotte):: I do not believe that a price ceiling is necessary in New Brunswick. It is my impression that the market will take care of the price of strawberries. I do not agree with the hon. member for York-Sunbury (Mr. Hanson). I believe the minister knows all about the marketing of strawberries in the maritime provinces.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I do not think he knows anything about it.


Burton Maxwell Hill: If the minister will cast his mind back he will remember that when the first strawberries came on the market they were carefully picked. They consisted of a few berries that ripened ahead of the others,
and it was quite an expensive operation to pick the berries. They were marketed at a fairly high price, as a luxury. The next week, the berries having become more prolific, the price automatically dropped sometimes eight and ten cents a box. A fortnight later, when the great mass of the berries ripened, the crop automatically took care of the price and the price dropped seven and eight cents a box. That invariably takes place each year in New Brunswick.
This price ceiling does not take care of the marketing of the early berries, the few scattered berries that ripen at the start. If the farmer were to receive twenty-two cents a box right through for his average crop he would certainly be getting a high price; but what will happen is this. The first berries that were marketed at around thirty-five cents a box will have to be sold at twenty-two cents, and then the next week, when previously they dropped to twenty-five cents a box, they wall still have to be sold at twenty-two cents. When the large crop comes on the price will automatically drop eight cents and the farmer will get an average of only twelve to fifteen cents a box.


Hon. GROTE STIRLING (Yale):: It has not been very often in nearly twenty years when a fruit discussion has taken place in this house that I have not played my part in it. On this occasion I have but little to say, beoause in the Okanagan valley, which I represent in this house, the fruits grown are more largely the tree fruits than the small fruits; consequently we are not shippers on a commercial scale of large quantities of berries.
The difficulty with which we are faced to-day is that great one of ascertaining what the price should be. It has been the difficulty over the years. It is accentuated at this time when there is more necessity than ever to take care of the consumer. What has been wanted, what has been desired by the producer who is producing over a series of years, is that the right price should be received; that the consumer should not suffer but that the producer should get an adequate return for his work.
As I have not had representations from those whom I represent here with regard to prices, labour, and so on, I am not going to take any more part in the debate except to say that in listening to the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank) last week and to-day I must say that I am impressed with the suggestion that in so far as this year is concerned it does not look as if the dates chosen were the right dates for the purpose. I would suggest that consideration be given to the possibility of setting those dates in
3316	COMMONS
Strawberries-Prices in British Columbia
accordance with the price later on, and allow things to come nearer to picking time before the final decision is made.


Mr. P. C. BLACK (Cumberland):: I come from a part of Canada that is in a special position, perhaps a favoured position, with respect to the growing of strawberries, inasmuch as we at the head of the bay of Fundy, with the advantage of fog and perhaps the disadvantage of a slightly later spring, have a crop of strawberries that comes on the market the last of any producing area in Canada, after the Saint John valley and the Annapolis valley, represented by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley), crop has been almost completely marketed. Our position at the head of the bay of Fundy is somewhat analogous to that pointed out to the house by the hon. member for Kootenay East (Mr. MacKinnon) when he stated that the strawberries marketed in his constituency are two weeks or more later than the strawberries marketed from the coast and Fraser valley.
I am in general agreement with the representations made by the hon. member for Fraser Valley and the other hon. members from British Columbia. I am in complete agreement with the representations made by the hon. member for York-Sunbury (Mr. Hanson), namely, that no ceiling price should be placed on strawberries. I believe this is a case where the price of the commodity should be controlled by supply and demand.
May I point out the ridiculousness of this fixed ceiling price as applied to the area at the head of the bay of Fundy. They fix a ceiling price of twenty-seven cents a quart up to June 24. Well, you do not even raise a box of strawberries down there in the greenhouse at that date. Then, after June 24 the price is twenty-two cents. In our area we rarely market a box of strawberries until after July 1. Yet they fix a maximum price of twenty-two cents as of June 24, the lower price. I would presume that the board which is responsible for setting these prices would at least consult-they do not consult the members-some dealer or producer of berries in those localities before they set a price and a time which on the face of it is ridiculous.
I am in general agreement with the representations made by the hon. members from British Columbia. I am in complete agreement with the request made by the hon. member for York-Sunbury. There should be no ceiling price on a commodity such as strawberries at a time such as this when they are being produced at high costs, and when you consider the difficulties of securing fertilizer and help to raise them. When everything is taken into consideration very little, if any,
rMr. Stirling.]
profit even under the most favourable conditions is derived. The farmers will certainly be discouraged by the ceiling prices that are set for this year.


Mr. G. G. McGEER (Vancouver-Burrard):: Before the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley) replies, there are one or two observations I should like to make on this particular order. I understand that there were no ceilings on strawberries last year. Strawberries are hardly a commodity that enter at this time of the year into the category of necessities of life, yet they probably do add something to the joy of life. Certainly I have had a great deal of difficulty in finding out in the last year's proceedings where the wartime prices and trade board have ever added anything to the joy of Canadian life since they were brought into being; and this is a splendid instance of that board, apart from the purpose of its necessary and essential duty, becoming a board of interference, a board that has destroyed its real value by its indifference to moving into the realm of nuisance value. It is high time that some supervising authority stepped in to prevent that board from destroying its own usefulness by its own folly and its own nonsense.
Everybody will agree that in war time prices should) be controlled. Everybody will agree that production should be regulated and that the distribution of things essential to a war time economy should be done with equity and fairness. I go farther than a great many of my hon. friends on this side of the house in believing firmly that in the economy of a power age the control and regulation of reasonable prices, of reasonable services, of reasonable production and distribution, is an essential part of our whole system of planned and organized life which we cannot escape. Here you find a typical example of the sort of thing that emanates only from unbridled bureaucracy. This is one of the dangers with which our whole peace-time programme is confronted, and one of the things that has hindered rather than helped our war effort.
Now let me just give a few examples of the sort of thing involved in this order. The zones are described; No. 1 takes in Ontario and Quebec, that section of the Dominion of Canada which has been favoured so long by this canoe-minded atmosphere in Ottawa.


Mr. McCANN:: Who says so?


Gerald Grattan McGeer: I have never known any of you to suffer; and in any deal between central Canada and either the west or the east I notice that -central Canada always comes out on top. Let us look at this particular example, even in connection with a small thing like

Strawbenies-
-Prices in British Columbia
strawberries. In zone No. 1, Ontario and Quebec, the strawberry grower receives 30 cents. In zone No. 2, the maritime provinces, the price drops to 27 cents, and in zone No.
3, British Columbia, the price is also down to 27 cents. Tell me why a strawberry grower in Ontario, with the 'huge market in this area, should get more at this season of the year than a grower in the maritime provinces or in British Columbia. The growers in central Canada have cheaper land; they have a better market, and they have cheaper labour. That is one situation. But let us see what happens when the table is turned, when they are packing their surplus in this area to compete with those who pack berries in the mari-times and British Columbia. Strangely enough the central packer again gets the benefit. After June 24 the price in Ontario and Quebec drops to 19 cents, while in the maritimes and British Columbia it is held at 22 cents. Let me ask this question. When conditions are in favour of the grower; when prices are high, with the new production coming on the market, why does the eastern producer benefit to the extent of three cents a quart; then, when it comes to producing for packing house competition with British Columbia and the maritime provinces, why should we find the central packer paying a price of 19 cents as against 22 cents which must be paid by the packer in British Columbia and the maritimes?
I know the Minister of Finance resents any criticism of the wartime prices and trade board, and I know that this board does not welcome suggestions from members of parliament. Under our modern bureaucracy we have been relegated to the background to the extent that it is an insult to our wartime prices and trade board, and to our bureaucrats, to dare offer a suggestion as the representatives of the people. I do not want anyone to accuse me of speaking for votes on this matter, because I do not happen to have any strawberry growers in my riding, and I suppose running true to human nature most of my constituents would like to get strawberries even in the early season just as Cheaply as possible. Apart from that, however, from long experience in British Columbia I know that all the people of that province will resent the idea of an unfair discrimination against the growers of British Columbia and the maritimes, and an unfair preference to the growers of central Canada. When a government undertakes to move into the discreet level above which profits may be made, or to dictate the discreet line along which any business must operate, that government will find that in doing so it is doing more harm
than good. If ceilings are to be fixed and floors established, they can be levelled out; it can be arranged upon a basis under which a reasonable amount of competition can exist between the floor and the ceiling. What we want to prevent in war time as in peace time is the unreasonable exploitation of the consumer in the consumers' market. We never want to undertake to restrict competition or to destroy the incentive of a reasonable and fair reward.
This, Mr. Speaker, is a splendid example of the need for reform in the wartime prices and trade board. It is typical of the harsh and arbitrary measures that are too often adopted by this board without the necessary experience to qualify them to dictate the policy and programme of the many businesses and of the farmers and producers upon whom they have fastened like a straitjacket an army of regulations and controls that now need revision, and many of which should be done away with. I congratulate the hon. member for Fraser Valley on bringing this matter to the attention of parliament, and I hope the minister responsible for this order will see that the kind of inequality, the kind of discrimination, the kind of preference and the kind of sectional differences that appear here are eliminated.


Mr. J. H. BLACKMORE (Lethbridge):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to support the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank). Only recently I was contending, on behalf of the beef producers in my constituency, that they were suffering from similar foolhardiness in the management of prices. I think the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard (Mr. McGeer) was fully justified in saying what he did, and I support his remarks. In the first place let me say that I favour the principle of a ceiling and a floor.


James Lorimer Ilsley: So does everybody, but no one is ever satisfied with any price that is set. It is the other fellow's price.


John Horne Blackmore: I can understand why the minister makes that statement, and I must say that I have great sympathy for him in the difficult position in which he finds himself. But may I say that just as long as the minister and his government persist in trying to manage the affairs of this country under an outworn, outmoded and ineffective financial system, he will continue to find himself in this situation. That may sound strange, but right things have sounded strange before this. The floor and ceiling must be fair to both producer and consumer. I am sure the minister will agree with that.
3318	COMMONS
Strawberries-Prices in British Columbia


James Lorimer Ilsley: That is the last mention there will be of the consumer.


John Horne Blackmore: I believe the principles involved in this discussion are sound. I refer first to the principle of home production. It is my belief that to the greatest possible degree the Dominion of Canada should produce its own needs and should consume its own production. That applies to strawberries as well as to other commodities. The berry growers deserve, and in the interests of Canadian consumers must receive, prices covering costs of production and plus a fair remuneration. At the same time consumers must be protected; otherwise they will cease to use Canadian berries and will seek substitutes of one kind or another, again to the disadvantage of Canadian producers.
I should like to know upon what basis the wartime prices and trade board were working when they fixed the price of strawberries. I do not happen to be familiar with production of strawberries, and therefore I am not in a position to speak with any degree of authority in the matter. But it would be interesting to find out just how they computed the price. How did they determine what it ought to be? I am inclined to say, with respect to the wartime prices and trade board, that they have endeavoured to be fair to consumers. I believe their difficulty has arisen out of that desire, and I do not find too much fault with them, because I believe I understand their difficulty. Now they have endeavoured to fix a price which the consumer can, will and ought to pay. I believe that is right, and I believe the board are entitled to have a member say that. But at the same time the price upon which they have fixed is, it appears, one unquestionably lower than the grower can accept, or at which he can grow berries. What is going to be done about it? No one has thus far in the debate offered any suggestion as to what should be done. May I offer one? The solution of the difficulty will be found in a well-placed subsidy. There will be those who will say immediately that the principle of subsidies, being too expensive, is unsound. There will be no serious objection to the subsidy once it is realized that it can be paid out of the national credit, in so far as the goods and services producing and consuming capacity of Canada will justify the use of that credit. Just as soon as that principle is recognized it will be possible to pay a price which is fair to the producer and at the same time fair to the consumer. If a subsidy is necessary to bridge the gap between the two, then let a subsidy be paid.
Already we are using the principle of paying subsidies, in respect of many commodities. It

will do no harm to extend it. I believe it was last year, when the Minister of Finance was discussing the amount of money to be spent for the board which has to do with the adjustment of prices, that I pointed out I had only one fault to find with the appropriatoin, and that was that it was too small. I advocated something like $500,000,000 whereas the minister was asking for about $200,000,000-and I am speaking entirely from memory. Many hon. members thought I was extravagant, but I was not extravagant. If the economy of this country is to be established on a basis equitable and advantageous to all the people, both producers and consumers, a far more extensive use of subsidies must be made, so as to bring down prices to the consumers and bring them up for the producers.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Mr. Speaker, the discussion this afternoon must have brought home to all members of the house, and to all members of the public who are taking an interest in the matter, the difficulty of price control. The hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank) made a rather moderate request. He with some other British Columbia members made the request last Friday afternoon. I took it up with the wartime prices and trade board, where it was fully discussed, and eventually determined to be impracticable-or, if not impracticable, undesirable.
But before I come to that, let us consider this matter in its other aspects. A year ago, in the spring and summer of 1943, fruits and vegetables went to very high prices in this country, and we had from all parts of the country complaints that our much vaunted price ceiling, as it was called, was no price ceiling at all. It was said that while ,we held down the price of bread, the price of butter, the price of meat, and the price of some other necessities of life, we were not bringing about a realistic cost of living for Canada at all, because we were allowing fruits and vegetables, and a great variety of foods which most Canadians are able to buy to go uncontrolled. And so we felt we had to bring a great range of commodities under control this year which were not under control last year. In that list was fruit. That is the reason for a price ceiling on strawberries, along with a great many other fruits which were not controlled last year. We have not heard much from the consumer in this house at all. We do not hear that until we do something against the interests of consumers. For instance, let me take as an example the hon. member for Battle River (Mr. Fair). He stands up in his place this afternoon and expresses sympathy with the hon. member for Fraser Valley when that hon.

Strawberries-Prices in British Columbia
member asks the government to let the price of strawberries go up. But last year, owing to the fact that we had let the price of a good many foods go up, during the first two months of the operation of the price ceiling it was found necessary to allow the price of meals in restaurants to be increased somewhat, and to permit an increased charge for tea and coffee. And the first member in this house to get up and launch an attack upon the government far its failure to control prices of foods, was the hon. member for Battle River. Members cannot have it both ways.
The hon. member for Yancouver-Burrard (Mr. McGeer) also spoke this afternoon about prices. He talks half the time for the farmer and half the time for the packer. First he says how unfair it is to the farmers of eastern Canada and western Canada to allow a higher price ceiling for farmers in Ontario and Quebec during the early part of the season. "Why," he says, "they are held to 27 cents in the maritime provinces and also to 27 cents in British Columbia during the early part of the season. But look at Ontario and Quebec, the part of Canada which always gets the best of everything, and gets the best of the other provinces. They are not held down to 27 cents; they are allowed 30 cents." Then he said, "After they get into midseason see what they cutely do, to help Ontario and Quebec. What they cutely do then is to get the ceiling down to 19 cents in Ontario and Quebec, and allow the farmers to go up to 22 cents in the west and the maritime provinces." Now, he cannot have it both ways either.


Gerald Grattan McGeer: The eastern farmer gets it both ways.


James Lorimer Ilsley: The eastern farmer does not get it both ways because the price-


Gerald Grattan McGeer: You are not-


An hon. MEMBER:: Sit down.


Gerald Grattan McGeer: You are not speaking for the minister and I am sure he will not object to my asking this question. Is it not true that in the early part of the season, particularly in the east, when they are getting 30 cents, the farmers make an enormous profit on their early berries? ,


James Lorimer Ilsley: I do not know.


Gerald Grattan McGeer: On those berries they make an enormous profit.


James Lorimer Ilsley: After a certain date, after mid-season, the price to the producer in the central market is held down to 19 cents. The producer in the western and eastern provinces gets 22 cents.


Gerald Grattan McGeer: How can our packers-


James Lorimer Ilsley: My hon. friend switches from farmer to packer in mid-season. He argues for the British Columbia farmers for the first of the season and for the British Columbia packers for the last of the season. He should follow the farmer through from beginning of the season or follow the packer through from the beginning of the season; he should not contradict himself. The effective date of this order was set at May 29, in ordter to bring imported berries under control. It was thought unwise to let a lot of imports go completely uncontrolled before the domestic crop appeared on the market and then impose a ceiling on the domestic crop. In the United States berries are selling at about 50 or 60 cents, and one hon. member said that they were selling for 59 cents in Ottawa. I do not know what the price is, but I am told it is something like 50 cents.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Fifty-nine cents.


James Lorimer Ilsley: A year ago people were complaining because there was no control over the price of fruits. Hon. members say that there were no complaints, but the fact is that there were tremendous complaints because there were no ceiling prices. Those complaints were received from wage-earners notably. Do you think we could allow quantities of berries to come in from the United States at high prices and then just as soon as our own berries came on the market clamp on a price ceiling? Why should the price ceiling not begin early and apply to imported berries, as well as to our own? It has been said that there are no berries until the early part of June in British Columbia and until considerably later in the eastern parts of Canada.
I can remember the hon. member for New Westminster complaining bitterly in this house because we imposed a price ceiling upon Canadian honey and allowed Mexican or some foreign honey to come in here. If we were to allow the foreign product to go uncontrolled and controlled the domestic product, we would hear all kinds of inflammatory talk about bureaucracies-we have heard a lot of it this afternoon-and all this foolishness about bureaucrats and that sort of thing. These things have to be considered when you are dealing with a price structure.
In Ontario and Quebec the ceiling is 30 cents a quart until June 24, and 19 cents a quart after June 24. In the maritime provinces it is 27 cents a quart up to June 24, and 22 cents a quart after June 24. In the western provinces it is 27 cents a quart up to June 17 and 22 cents a quart after June 17.
3320	COMMONS
Strawberries-Prices in British Columbia


Richard Burpee Hanson: We have no berries before June 22 in the maritimes. Why should we have a ceiling there?


James Lorimer Ilsley: I want to deal with these contentions one at a time. Some members say, no ceiling; others say, no control.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I said in the maritimes.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Just in the maritimes, and a ceiling everywhere else.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I do not care whether you have a ceiling or not. The minister is not going to misrepresent my position. I stated expressly that I did not understand the situation in western Canada and I do not pretend to understand it in Ontario, but I have some knowledge of the situation in the maritime provinces. I suggest also that my contention has been supported by hon. members from the maritimes on both sides of the house. My contention is that no ceiling is necessary, and until I am shown otherwise I shall continue to hold that view. It may be that there is a reason and, if so, I should like to be shown. But I should like to be consulted once in a while by these so-called bureaucrats whom the minister is defending so magnificently this afternoon. He is telling us that we must not say a word against them. Surely members of parliament are entitled to be consulted.


James Lorimer Ilsley: I do not mind a question, but I hate some types of speeches in the middle of my speech. Ontario and Quebec are higher for the early berries and lower for the mid-season berries, because this conforms to usual market conditions. Prices in the central provinces always show a much wider swing between early and mid-season prices than do prices in the other provinces. This just follows the pattern of other years; it conforms to the experience of other years. It is not a device to favour one part of the country at the expense of another. I should imagine that the great majority of the berries would be marketed after June 24 in Ontario and Quebec where the ceiling is 19 cents a quart as against 22 cents a quart in the maritime provinces and British Columbia. I may be wrong, but I think that would be the case.
British Columbia is the principal producing area in the western provinces, and the season there is almost invariably ten days to two weeks ahead of the rest of Canada. Hence the date for dropping to the mid-season price is made one week earlier in British Columbia. It may be that that is too early for the eastern part of British Columbia and it may be that a good deal can be said for the representation made this afternoon by the hon.

member for Kootenay East that the season in the interior is much later than on the coast. That is a matter to which consideration has been given and is being given at the present time.
But that kind of representation is different from the coastal representation, which is that there should not be any ceiling at all during the early part of the berry season. You would have this condition. Those persons who could get their berries off early would be able to get uncontrolled prices, while other unfortunate individuals would have to sell at the controlled price. You would then have accusations of discrimination far worse than anything that has been made this afternoon.
What about these prices? I want to put on the record the prices for the different provinces for different years. To hear some of the speeches made this afternoon one would think that we took the prices of Japanese produced berries in 1938, 1939, 1940 and 1941 as a basis for what we would allow the producers of berries in 1944. That is not the case at all. The prices of berries years ago were only about a third of what are being
allowed under this	price	controlled order.	Hereare the average prices: 1939	1940	1941	1942cents	cents	cents	centsNova Scotia	10	11	13	14New Brunswick.. ..	8	7	9	10Quebec 	6	7	9	10Ontario 	7	6	9	12British Columbia..	8	8	9	12


Grote Stirling: Are those pints?


James Lorimer Ilsley: No; those are prices for
quarts. The Japanese began to be removed from British Columbia in February, 1942, and I would call attention to the fact that the 1942 prices were higher in all provinces.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I know the minister does not want to give a wrong impression, but I think he has been misinformed when he says that the Japanese berry growers were leaving British Columbia on that date.


James Lorimer Ilsley: I made inquiries just a few minutes ago as to when the Japanese began to be removed from British Columbia and I was told it was in February, 1942.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I come from a
district where there were 700 Japanese farms, and I know that the minister must be misinformed. Perhaps one Jap and a small dog left then and they said the Japanese were beginning to be removed.


James Lorimer Ilsley: It was not an official who informed me. I think my information was authentic.

Strawberries-
-Prices in British Columbia
In 1943 what was the situation in British Columbia? British Columbia's crop was only one-quarter of normal and prices rose to inflationary levels, being more than four times the prices which prevailed in 1940 and 1941, and more than two and a half times the prices of 1942. Let me give the production to show that what I am saying about shortages in the crop is true. In British Columbia the number of quarts produced in 1939 was 10,877,000; in 1940, 9,078,000; in 1941, 10,431,000; in 1942, 5,649,000; in 1943, 2,523,000. That shows the tremendous drop in production, and there was a tremendous rise in price. The price in British Columbia in 1943 did rise on the average to 33 cents a quart, and as I said before, that was four times the prices which prevailed in 1940 and 1941, and more than two and a half times the prices of 1942. In fixing a ceiling for 1944 I do not think it would be reasonable to take the conditions of last year, which were entirely extraordinary. The 1944 average ceiling is 9 or 10 cents a quart below the 1943 price but it is nearly double the 1942 price-not nearly double the old prices of 1938, 1939 and 1940, but nearly double the 1942 price. The 1944 ceilings do not constitute a roll-back on 1943 prices in other provinces and in each case are about double the 1942 prices.
A great many statements have been made in the course of this discussion of which I have made notes. I have the remarks of the hon. member for Fraser Valley about the costs of production. I do not know what the source of his figures is.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I will give it.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Yes, but I have not got it. The figures would have to be pretty carefully checked. But when you fix a ceiling price that is about twice the 1942 price, which was a very considerable increase over the preceding two years, it would seem to me that adequate consideration must have been given to all relevant factors, including the cost of production. I do not know that Mr. Donald Gordon ever said what the hon member for New Westminster (Mr. Reid) says he said-


Thomas Reid: He said it in Vancouver when arguing with the potato growers.


James Lorimer Ilsley: -that he did not care what it cost to produce.


Thomas Reid: I can give you the date and the meeting.


James Lorimer Ilsley: I would be doubtful if there was any record of his saying anything of the kind. I certainly do not know of his saying
anything of the kind. It is very, very easy to attack officials, men who are doing an enormously difficult job. This discussion to-day is like discussions that have gone on over the last two or three years. Members get up and say: "We want controls; we want ceilings"- except the hon. member for York-Sunbury (Mr. Hanson), who does not want a ceiling in the maritime provinces.


Richard Burpee Hanson: On strawberries.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Members get up and say, "We want ceilings, but we do not like what was done here." That is what they say to nearly everything. I have yet to meet anybody who is affected by controls to such an extent that he will lose money that he would have had but for that limitation, and who accepts the control without an argument. While it is a painful thing to operate all these controls, it involves prices in hundreds of thousands of individual cases and individual commodities, and I think that the officials have acted carefully and fairly in this particular case. Mr. Chambers, the administrator of fruits, has had forty years' experience in British Columbia. Some members of this house know him better than I do, but I know that he has had forty years' experience in British Columbia, and I am thankful this afternoon that he did come from British Columbia. I am thankful that he did not come from Ontario or the maritime provinces.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Was he a grower?


James Lorimer Ilsley: He has been growing apples and has been in the Okanagan valley and has been associated with growers and. cooperative organizations for years.


George Alexander Cruickshank: How many strawberries are grown in the Okanagan valley?


James Lorimer Ilsley: I do not say they grow
strawberries there.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I know.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Mr. Chambers has been in touch with this problem for months. He has made trips to British Columbia about it and has done a very considerable amount of consultation with people who ought to know about it.


Richard Burpee Hanson: He never consulted with one member of parliament about it. We are not idiots altogether.


James Lorimer Ilsley: I say that this order was worked out carefully and I can see nothing unfair about it. It may be that the order is
Questions

not absolutely perfect; I do not know. I will say this, that time after time these situations arise, representations are made, and we do the best we can with the situations, but it is pretty hard to convince me that a price which is about double the price of 1942, which was about four times higher than the prices of 1941, 1940 and 1939, is an unreasonable price.
M ith regard to the dates when there is a drop in the ceiling price, that is a matter, as I said before, to which consideration can be given.


Mr. HAZEN:: Will the minister give the average figures for 1943 for the other provinces? He gave the figures for British Columbia only.


James Lorimer Ilsley: In 1943 the average figure for Nova Scotia was 22 cents; New Brunswick, 19 cents; Quebec, 17 cents; Ontario, 18 cents; British Columbia, 33 cents. That shows it was altogether an abnormal price.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Will the minister state whether in his opinion these prices are adequate figures to be used as a base in fixing the price for 1944, namely, eight cents in 1938, eight cents in 1939, nine cents in 1941? I will repeat those figures and I want to make sure that every member hears them: 8 cents, 8 cents, 9 cents and 12 cents. Does the minister think those are fair figures to use in fixing the price for 1944?


James Lorimer Ilsley: I am defending the figure of 27 cents.


George Alexander Cruickshank: The minister stated that there was an abnormal rise in those years.


Thomas Vien: Order.


James Lorimer Ilsley: The abnormality is shown by comparison with the other provinces.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Mr. Speaker, I want to do this according to Hoyle. May I ask permission to withdraw the motion?
Motion withdrawn.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. KNOWLES:: 1- Have any provincial governments asked thetederal government to increase from $65 to $125 a year the amount of other income which an old age or blind pensioner may receive without suffering a reduction in the amount of his pension? If so, which provinces?
,2. Have any provincial governments asked that the above amount be higher than $125 a year?

3.	Is the government considering action in this matter?


Mr. KNOW  LES@: I suggest that the Minister of Finance has adequately answered this question in the announcement he made earlier to-day, and so far as I am concerned the question can now be dropped. I am grateful for the announcement made.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Thank you.


DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE-EMPLOYEES WITH UNIVERSITY DEGREES
Mr. NICHOLSON:: How many of the employees of the Department of Agriculture in each classification given in sessional paper 284, Friday, April 28, 1944, have, (a) the degree of Master of Science or Master of Arts; (b) the degree of Doctor of Philosophy ?


Mr. GARDINER:: (a)	(b)
Master of Science Doctor or	of
Master of Arts Philosophy
1- (a)	
9	3(b)	
26	14(c)	
22	6(d)	
2	..2. (a)	
28	4(b)	
39	1(c)	
3(d)	i


WARTIME PRICES AND TRADE BOARD-USED BEER BOTTLES
Percy Chapman Black: 
Mr. ABBOTT:: 1.	Yes. See section 2 of the order.
2.	Two. A. Keith & Son Ltd.; Oland & Son Ltd.
3.	Two. New Brunswick Breweries Ltd., Saint John, N.B. Red Ball Brewery Limited, Saint John, N.B.
4.	Yes.
5.	Yes.
6.	Yes. Permits have been issued to the following: Thos. Buraglia, Bathurst; A. Freedman & Son, Saint John; J. Omer Guidry, Campbellton; Hachey Bros., Chatham; Fred Levesque, Edmundston; W. G. McIntyre, Saint John; J. A. Robichaud, Rexton, G. Rubenstein, Chatham; Harry Rueh, Moncton.
7.	Yes. Permits have been issued to the
following:	Consumers Bottle Co., Sydney;
Provincial Bottle Exchange, Halifax.
8.	Yes. The brewers complained that bottles were leaving the province and that there were not enough left for their requirements.
9.	From the files of the W.P.T.B. it appears that a situation relating to the provision of beer bottles for breweries in the martime
provinces was brought to the attention of the board in the spring of 1942, by one of the brewers in the maritimes. In previous years, maritime breweries had relied on the collection of used beer bottles for their needs, because bottles are not manufactured in the maritime provinces. As demands for beer increased and a bottle shortage appeared possible, shipments of empty bottles back to Ontario and Quebec breweries began to increase. The situation was discussed between officials of the board and officials of the N.S. and N.B. liquor commissions together with the maritime brewers and the provisions of order No. A-505 were thereby developed. The purpose of this order was to keep used beer bottles needed for the use of the maritime breweries in the maritimes, and thus avoid shipment of empties back to Ontario and Quebec, and shipment of additional quantities of new bottles to the maritime breweries.
10.	The chief commissioner of the Nova Scotia liquor commission is authorized to act on behalf of the W.P.T.B., in the administration of order No. A-505.
11.	See question 10.
12.	A. S. Mahon, Chief Commissioner, Nova Scotia Liquor Commission, 157 Granville St., Halifax, N.S.
13.	Yes. 279 permits covering 10,803 dozen empty pint bottles and 56,629 dozen empty quart bottles.


WAR PRODUCTION-PROVING GROUNDS
Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	What is the total personnel assigned to or employed by the proving grounds establishment of the Department of National Defence?
2.	What percentage of Canadian war production, during the past year, has been tested by this establishment?


Mr. MACDONALD (Halifax):: 1. 54 all ranks. In addition, 121 are temporarily attached for special tests now in hand.
2.	Vehicles of various types with their ancillary equipment constitute the bulk of all war materials tested by the proving ground of the Department of National Defence. About -45 per cent of the total production of vehicles in dollar value was tested during the last fiscal year. This represented, however, the testing of 100 per cent of new model vehicles as at least one of each new type was tested.
The percentage of the total Canadian-produced vehicles tested has no relation to the activities of the proving ground. While only a very few of each type of vehicle are tested
Questions

by the proving ground, a large number of special tests are carried out from time to time. Many of these tests take a large number of man-hours to complete, such as the tests carried out in order to develop satisfactory synthetic recapped tires, which involved 15 trucks, 28,000 man-hours and 260,000 miles of testing.


HOUSING-EXPENDITURES
Mr. BENCE:: What sums of money have been expended in each year under the authority of the National Housing Act, 1938, chapter 49?


Mr. ABBOTT:: Advances made by the government as its share of approved loans under the National Housing Act, 1938, and its predecessor act, the Dominion Housing Act, 1935, have been as follows:
Fiscal	Dominion	National	year	Housing Act Housing Act	Total1935-36.	.. S 79,883	$ 79,8831936-37.	.. 1,004,052	1,004,0521937-38.	.. 1,725,801	1,725,8011938-39.	.. 2,049,325	$ 729,215	2,778,5401939-40.	.. 204,021	4,478,687	4,682,7081940-41.	.. 7,838	4,310,953	4,318,7911941-42.	3,491,353	3,491,3531942-43.	1,324,637	1,324,6371943-44.	921,730	921,730$ 5,070,920	$15,256,575	$20,327,495


CANADIAN ARMY-SENIOR OFFICERS
Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	How many of each of the following are there in the Canadian army: colonels, brigadiers, major-generals, lieutenant-generals, and generals?
2.	With reference to each of the above -ranks, how many were iborn in, (a) Canada; (b) United Kingdom; (c) elsewhere?


Mr. MACDONALD (Halifax):: 1.	As of 27th May, 1944:
		r,		a
				
TE a	-d 03	L 2	" s'c	tfi	ja g	Q SOn duty with Canadian	O	w	<5 O	3 oArmy 	
On duty with other government depart-	247	128	25	6ments or agencies.... On leave pending retire-	6	5	5	ment 	6	2	3	12.	(a)	(b)	(c)Colonels 	191	51	17Brigadiers	105	19	11Major-Generals 	24	7	2Lieutenant-Generals .... 	6	1


PRAIRIE FARM ASSISTANCE-APPLICANTS WHOSE SOLE OCCUPATION NOT FARMING
Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: 1.	In how many cases in each of the provinces of Saskatchewan, Alberta and Manitoba, during each of the years 1941 to 1943 inclusive, have operators of farms been denied payment under the Prairie Farm Assistance Act on -the ground that their sole occupation was not farming?
2.	(a) Have payments been made to any applicants whose sole occupation was not farming; (ib) if so, how many of such cases were there in each of the said -provinces, during each of the said years?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	Complete records of persons ineligible for prairie farm assistance awards are not available.
2.	(a) Yes; the regulations under the act permit payments to persons having other occupations provided they reside on their farms and their primary occupation is farming ; (b) records not maintained in such a way as make this information available.


NATIONAL REVENUE-ADVERTISEMENT IN
[Stage Direction]
"liberal advocate"
Mr. BENCE:: 1.	Was an advertisement inserted by the Department of National Revenue in the April, 1944, number of the -periodical known as the Liberal Advocate?
2.	If .so, what was the cost to the Department of National Revenue, and/or any other department of -the government for such advertisement?


Mr. GIBSON:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Cost to income tax division of the Department of National Revenue, $100.


ORDERS IN COUNCIL
Mr. DORION:: 1.	Of the 44,321 orders in council passed by the governor in council since the -beginning of the war, -have any not been published and made public?
2.	If so, (a) how many; (b) when null they be published or made public?


Mr. CLAXTON:: 1.	Yes.
2.	(a) 41,138;
(b) Since August 25, 1939, orders in council passed under the authority of the War Measures Act have been tabled periodically in both Senate and House of Commons.
Prior to October 1, 1942, orders in council of general or widespread interest or concern were published in eight volumes under the general title "Proclamations and Orders in Council relating to the War". Other orders in council relating, for example, to foreign exchange control, defence of Canada regulations, et cetera, were published from time to time in separate volumes.

Questions
The statutory orders and regulations order 1942 (P.C. 7992, September 4, 1942) provided for the publication by the privy council office in "Canadian War Orders and Regulations" of all orders in council relating to the war, of a legislative character or imposing a penalty. Since October 12 of that year "Canadian War Orders and Regulations" has appeared weekly.
Orders in council required by statute to be published in the Canada Gazette are printed from time to time in that publication.
Orders in council which have not been published or made public, since the beginning of the war, fall into two categories, namely:
(1)	Orders of a purely administrative character and of no general interest.
Such orders include those originating in the Department of Munitions and Supply, for the authorization of contracts between the Minister and manufacturers and suppliers of weapons and war supplies of all kinds. For this purpose the authority of the governor in council is required under the Department of Munitions and Supply Act. These account for approximately 70 per cent of all orders in council passed since the beginning of the war.
Also included in this category are those authorizing contracts by the Department of Public Works, appointments to various administrative positions and miscellaneous routine orders passed under the authority of various statutes.
(2)	Orders in council, the publication of which is withheld for security reasons.
In this category are included orders in council, the publication of which is omitted or deferred under the authority of the secret documents (non-publication) order 1941 (P.C. 5135 of July 15, 1941); the publication of such orders would otherwise be necessary. Also included within this category is a small number of orders in council in respect of which military authorities issue a certificate to the effect that their publication would convey information likely to be of value to the enemy. Such orders, for example, authorize military establishments and the like.


SPECIAL WAR REVENUE ACT-DECISION OF SUPREME COURT, OCTOBER, 1942
Mr. GREEN:: 1.	Has the government taken any action regarding deposits to protect policyholders in Canada, in view of the decision of the Supreme Court of Canada given in October, 1942, which deals with the validity of section 4 of the Special War Revenue Act amending Act 1940-41, and the validity of registration and deposits under the Dominion Insurance Acts?
2.	Are registration and deposits still required?


Mr. ABBOTT:: 1.	The government continues to require and hold deposits as heretofore.
2.	Yes.


JAPANESE NATIONALS-BRITISH COLUMBIA
Thomas Reid: Have any assurances been given the Japanese, by or on behalf of the security commission, that they would be returned to British Columbia following the end of the war?


Mr. MARTIN:: No commitments, with respect to post-war disposition of persons, of the Japanese race, evacuated from the protected areas of British Columbia, were made to such persons by the British Columbia security commission.


WARTIME INFORMATION BOARD-D. PETEGORSKY
Mr. DORION:: 1.	Is D. Petegorsky employed by the war information board?
2.	If so, (a) what is his racial origin; (b) since what date has he been in the employ of the department; '(c) what is his age; (d) is he a British subject? If so, (i) by birth or by naturalization; (di) if by naturalization since udiat date; (e) what wras his occupation during the five years previous to his employment at the war information board; (f) what are his duties in the department?


Mr. CLAXTON:: 1.	Mr. D. Petegorsky is an employee of the national film board, who works with the wartime information board on industrial information, but is not on the payroll of the latter.
2.	(a) Russian Jewish, (b) Joined the national film board October, 1942, associated with the wartime information board since February, 1943.	(c) Twenty-eight, (d) Yes, by birth,
(e)	February, 192S-June, 1940 student, London School of Economics Ph.D. Pol.Ec. September, 1940-January, 1942, instructor in political science at Antioch college, Ohio. January, 1942-June, 1942, assistant director in charge of public relations and research, emergency committee for Jewish affairs, New York city. October, 1942. national film board, (f) He supervises wartime information board's industrial information service and relates it to the industrial film service provided by the national film board.'


WARTIME OILS LIMITED-DRILLINGS IN MARITIMES
Mr. HAZEN:: 1.	Has Wartime Oils Limited conducted drillings in any areas in the maritime provinces?
2.	If so, (a) in what areas have drillings been carried on; (b) what has been the result in each area; (c) were these drillings carried on by the employees of Wartime Oils Limited or by contractors on its behalf? If carried on by employees of the company what was the cost

Questions as Orders jor Returns
in each area? If carried on by contractors, what were the names of the contractors in each area and how much was paid each of them?


Mr. HOWE:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: How many male citizens resident in the United States between the ages of 18 and 38, who have not declared their intention of becoming citizens o>f the United States, are estimated to have been or to be subject to service in the Canadian armed forces, (a) as of January, 1943; (b) as of this date?


BUILDINGS PURCHASED OR SPACE LEASED IN NEW BRUNSWICK
Mr. HATFIELD:: 1.	In what places in New Brunswick have buildings been erected for the use of, (a) wartime prices and trade board; (b) selective service and unemployment insurance?
2.	What is the complete cost of such buildings and property?
3.	In what places in New Brunswick have offices been leased by the above boards?
4.	What are the rental charges for each of the above offices?
5.	What has been the cost of alterations and furnishings and other supplies for the said offices?


MOBILIZATION ACT-EXTENSION OP LEAVE
Mr. POULIOT:: 1.	How many circular letters were printed, mimeographed or requisitioned in or by each military district since June, 1940, to notify conscripts, (a) that their application for an extension of leave had been refused by the national war services board or by the mobilization commission, and (b) that they 'had to report, without 'further notice, to the military district depot?
2.	How many of such forms were sent by the Department of National Defence, the Department of National War Services or the Department of Labour to the liaison officer of each military district?
3.	How many of such forms have not been used in each military district?


RIDEAU HEALTH CENTRE
Mr. JAQUES:: 1.	What is the name of the real estate adviser who recommended the purchase of the land for the Rideau health centre on the Rideau river?
2.	Was he paid a commission or salary for his services? If so, how much?
3.	Was the property acquired through an agent ?
4.	If so, what is the name of such agent?
5.	Was a commission paid to him? If so, how much?

6.	What has been the cost to March 31, 1944, for drilling for water, levelling, filling, painting, etc., in connection with the Rideau health centre?
7.	What water and sewage system will be installed ?
8.	What is the location of the 230 acres under expropriation proceedings?


PAYMENTS TO &quot;HERALD&quot;, TORONTO
Mr. JACKMAN:: 1.	How much money has the government, government departments, or boards thereof, paid to the Herald, or E. V. Donnelly, or Basil J. Donnelly of 2411 Yonge street, Toronto, during each of the years 1939-1943, inclusive?
2.	By what departments or boards were the moneys paid, and for what purpose or purposes?
3.	What contracts have they, or any of them, with any government departments or boards at the present time?


TIDEWATER CONSTRUCTION COMPANY LIMITED
Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: 1.	Has any department of the government entered into contracts with the Tidewater Construction Company Limited, of Nova Scotia, since the beginning of the present war to date?
2.	If so, were tenders called, stating particulars and amount of each tender?
3- What was the date of each contract, the estimated cost, final cost and date of completion?


MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Percy Chapman Black: For a copy of all correspondence, petitions, requests or other documents submitted to the Minister of Finance or any other minister or official of the government, asldng for the prevention of the sale or delivery, purchase or acquisition of used beer 'bottles located in the province of Nova Scotia or the province of New Brunswick for the purpose of removal from the
rovince; a copy of all correspondence passing
etween the chief commissioner of the Nova Scotia liquor commission and the Minister of Finance or any other minister or1 official of the government leading up to the passing of wartime prices and trade board order No. A-505 of the 7th day of December, 1942, and dealing with the handling or sale of empty 'beer bottles within the province of Nova Scotia; also any correspondence passing between the Provincial Bottle Exchange Limited of Halifax, Nova Scotia, and/or D. F. Moriarity and the Minister of Finance or any other minister or official of the government during the years 1942, 1943 and 1944, and having regard to the 'handling or dealing in, or purchase or sale of empty beer bottles in the province of Nova Scotia; also copy of all correspondence, letters, telegrams, petitions or other documents passing between the commissioner of the New Brunswick liquor control board and the Minister of Finance or any other minister or official of the government and having regard to the handling or dealing in, or purchase or sale of empty beer bottles in the province of New Brunswick during the years 1942, 1943 and 1944; also a copy of any representations, ibriefs, correspondence, submissions or other documents presented to the Minister of Finance or the wartime prices and trade board, or any other official

World Monetary Conference
of the government protesting against the terms and conditions of wartime prices and trade board administration order No. A-505; also copy of any correspondence or requests for permits made to the Minister of Finance or the wartime prices and trade board or any other official of the government under subsection 2 of section 4 of order No. A-505.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Return tabled.


Gordon Graydon: I suggest to Your Honour that since we have disposed of these notices of motions with such celerity to-day, a good deal of time that is taken up in reading the motions could be saved if the house were agreeable to dispensing with that procedure. Unless there were some special reason why every motion should be read, perhaps we might adopt this speedier method of dealing with them.


Thomas Vien: Personally I should be glad indeed to follow the hon. gentleman's suggestion, but an hon. member in whose name a motion stood might desire to have it read.


Gordon Graydon: In that case it could be read.


Thomas Vien: Only with the consent of the hon. member concerned could the reading be dispensed with.


SURPLUS CROWN ASSETS
[Stage Direction]
Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Munitions and Supply) moved that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce legislation:
To confer authority upon a corporation to be established thereunder, to sell, exchange or otherwise dispose of, hold, manage, recondition, or otherwise deal with surplus crown assets, and to confer certain powers upon the Minister of Munitions and Supply and the governor in council in relation thereto including the power to establish an advisory committee;
To provide also that authority he given the governor in council to authorize the Minister of Finance to pay or advance to the corporation, from time to time, working capital from unappropriated moneys in the consolidated revenue fund; with provision for the deposit by the corporation to the credit of the consolidated revenue fund of Canada of all moneys received by it, except moneys paid or advanced to it on account of working capital and such percentage of all other moneys received by it as the governor in council may from time to time determine as being necessary to defray the administrative costs or other expenses of the corporation;
And to provide further for the payment of the salary of the president of the corporation and the chairman of the committee, and fees and salaries of persons in the employ or service of the minister, the committee or corporation.
He said:	His Excellency the Governor
General, having been made acquainted with
the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the consideration of the house.
Motion agreed to.

Hon. J. L. RALSTON (for the Prime Minister) moved:: That a joint committee of the Senate and House of Commons be appointed to review the special problems arising out of the location of the seat of government in the city of Ottawa and to report on the relations between _ the federal government and municipal authorities of the said city and their relative _ responsibilities in respect of such problems with power to inquire into the matter and things therein referred to:
That the said committee consist of the following: Messrs. Boucher, Cote, Dechene, Gregory, Hill, Knowles, Marshall, Matthews, Mcllraith, McLean (Simeoe East), O'Brien, Pinard, Purdy, Reid, White.
That standing order 65 of the House of Commons be suspended in relation thereto;
That the committee shall have leave to sit while the house is in session;
That the said committee shall have power to send for persons, papers and records and to report from time to time;
That a message be sent to the Senate to acquaint their honours that the House of Commons has appointed this committee and to request their honours to appoint members of the Senate to act thereon with the members of the House of Commons as a joint committee of both houses.
Motion agreed to:


WORLD MONETARY CONFERENCE
[Stage Direction]
Oa the orders of the day:
Gordon Graydon: On May 22 I directed an
inquiry to the Minister of Finance asking him for information as to whether or not the government had been consulted with respect to the reported calling of a world monetary conference. I also inquired at that time if the government was in a position to indicate under the auspices of what nation the conference would be called and the date and place of such a meeting, also as to whether or not Canada would be represented at the proposed gathering. The Minister of Finance stated in answer to my inquiries that the government had not been consulted with respect to the reported conference and was unaware that such a conference was to be convened.
It now appears that representatives of forty-two countries, as well as the French Committee of National Liberation, have been invited by President Roosevelt to a conference to deal with monetary and financial stabilization on July 1, next. I would now ask the
World Monetary Conference

Minister of Finance if Canada has received an invitation to this conference and, if so, how many delegates will attend from Canada? I should also like to know who these delegates will be and who will head such a delegation.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Canada has received an invitation to this conference, but the delegates have not been selected, and the number of delegates has not been decided upon.


Gordon Graydon: May I ask the minister whether that will be decided upon by those who call the conference, or by Canada?


James Lorimer Ilsley: I have the invitation before me, and I do not think it mentions the number of delegates. That would be decided by this government.


Gordon Graydon: Can the minister say whether he will be attending the conference?


James Lorimer Ilsley: I do not even know that. Probably I shall be there for a short time.


John Horne Blackmore: The minister will
remember that on Friday I asked a similar question, the third part of which was whether or not the Canadian delegates would be informed that they had no authority to commit Canada to any international monetary scheme until after such scheme should have been maturely considered by the parliament of Canada.


James Lorimer Ilsley: In the communication
extending the invitation appears the following sentence:
It would ibe understood, of course, that the delegates would not be required to hold plenipotentiary powers and that the proposals formulated at the conference would be referred to the respective governments and authorities for their acceptance or rejection.
This government in considering any proposals formulated at the conference would of course act with a due sense of their responsibility to parliament; and I do not think any further commitment than that should be asked for at this time. I would assume that if anything is proposed to alter the monetary policy of the Dominion of Canada in an important or far-reaching way, that would be brought before the house for its consideration and approval. I think that is all I should say at the moment. The government, in considering any such proposal, would act with a due sense of its responsibilities to parliament.


John Horne Blackmore: I believe that before Canada became committed to any international monetary scheme whatsoever there should be introduced into this house a measure which could be referred to the

banking and commerce committee for the most thorough study.

Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee of supply.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and the house went into committee of supply, Mr. Bradette in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
The Senate-
112. General administration, $219,980.
Mr. POULIOT:: This is an important item. It concerns one of the two legislative bodies of this parliament. We hear complaints that the senate is not being given the importance that it has in our constitution. It is easy to make a comparison between our senate and the senate of the United States. Across the border the senate has much more importance than congress and it is because the American senators assumed the initiative on many important matters of public administration. There is an external affairs committee of the United States senate which decides the foreign policy of that country. They play a role of major importance, and I do not see why a discussion of matters which are so vital to our national life are left to the parliamentary assistant to the chairman of the privy council, the Prime Minister, who delivers broadcasts twice a week about matters that should be studied by a committee of the senate. I very seldom listen to the radio, but I should like to read the reports of such committees of the senate.
There are also other things that should be studied by the senate. Many conservative senators have died; let them rest in peace, but those who are still alive, though their party is dead, should meet together to discuss the vital questions of bureaucracy. They should study the civil service. On two occasions special committees of this house have recommended unanimously that a standing committee on the civil service should be set up. The government did nothing about it, but on the other hand there is in the senate a standing committee on the civil service, which never sits. It is in the same class as the honorary committee on debates, the same as the committee on public accounts which was sleeping until it was awakened by the present leader of the opposition. Yet those people complain that they are not sent any work by the House of Commons. They have completely lost any sense of shame in the senate, and with the exception of two or three senators for whom I have the deepest

Supply-Legislation-The Senate
admiration I concur in what was said by the leader of the C.C.F. party as to the abolition of that body. Here they are, sitting perhaps fifteen days or three weeks during the session. We can see what they do by looking at their Hansard; it is as thin as a sheet of tissue paper. They meet, shake hands and go away. They have nothing to do. If they were willing to work; if they had enough initiative, they could help us; they could play the part that was allotted to them under our constitution.
I am not surprised that the vacant seats are not filled by the government. I believe there are thirteen of them, which is quite a number. It is true that this government has a majority in the senate, but I remember the time when Mr. Bennett was in power and Mr. Sauve was Postmaster General. He was my political football at the time and I wanted to keep him in the house; I did not want the Prime Minister to appoint him to the senate. I told the right hon. gentleman what economy he was practising by not making appointments to the senate. He was saving $4,000 a year for each vacant seat, plus travelling expenses, and he found the idea so good that he kept the Postmaster General in the house, to my great enjoyment. But now it would be easy for the government to appoint good men to the senate, some of the members who vote with the government on all matters but do not say a word in the house, those for whom the Christmas tree is in full swing the year round. Someone was complaining that outsiders were appointed to the senate and that as a result members of parliament were suffering an injustice. I say it is a good thing that they received the treatment they deserved. They did nothing here, and the Prime Minister could not expect them to awaken in the senate after they had been sleeping in this house since the beginning of the war. The senate is a nonentity in our parliament at the present time, just on account of the unwillingness of the senators to do something while they are sitting there. It is a great honour to be in the senate; it is like a decoration for merit.


The CHAIRMAN:: Order. If I may be allowed I would refer the hon. member to standing order 41, which reads:
No member shall speak disrespectfully _ of His Majesty, nor of any of the royal family; nor of the governor or person administering the government of Canada; nor use offensive words against either house, or against any member thereof. . . .


Jean-François Pouliot: Yes, Mr. Chairman, and I will not infringe the rule, but this is the only time during the session when we can say what we think, not of the senators themselves but
of the would-be senators and of the usefulness of the senate. I would not infringe the rule by saying that the senate is useless.


Gordon Graydon: Is my hon. friend preaching for a call?


Jean-François Pouliot: Well, my hon. friend knows very well that the only call to the senate I accepted was when the Minister of Munitions and Supply invited us to attend the sanctioning of certain bills, and that invitation was extended to my hon. friend just as much as it wras to me, since the hon. gentleman wanted to adjourn the house while I was on my feet dealing with a problem much less interesting than this one. As I have said, I have two or three old friends in the [DOT] senate who are still active and full of pep, but they are like an anachronism. Why should one have pep? It is the realm of rolling chairs and railroading bills. I am not against the senate;.I am for it. I think the senate could do much more than it is doing now. I will not take the trouble to search for my copy of the debates of the senate, but it is painful to think that we should be voting 8618,989 to keep the senate going now. I would not be for the abolition of the senate if the senators were really up to the standard of days gone by, but now it is the reward for a long political career. It is all right to reward old friends;
I am all for it, and that is why I am surprised when some opponents of the government are appointed to various important positions and especially to honorary positions. Take the last four appointments to the senate for the province of Quebec. One is a gentleman who has a fat salary as head of a power organization. Another is a gentleman who had fat contracts from the Department of Munitions and Supply for being the agent of Mr. Macmillan in the province of Quebec. The third had no political background whatever.


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend knows the rules better than most of us. I want to point out to you, Mr. Chairman, the language the hon. member has used with respect to the senate, and I do submit that it is an infringement of standing order 41. Not only should my hon. friend discontinue using this sort of language against the other house; I suggest to him that it would be quite in order, and the thing to do, if he -would withdraw it. He said that the members there might do us some good if they were willing to work; that if they had enough initiative they might do us some good; that the senate was a nonentity; that the senate was an anachronism. A moment ago he stated that one of the members was enjoying a fat contract with somebody, and intimated that this was the

Supply-Legislation-The Senate
reason he was appointed. I ask my hon. friend to desist from this sort of thing, and I take objection to his talking in that way regarding the other house.


Jean-François Pouliot: In answer to what the
minister has said-[DOT]


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: The hon. member may speak to the point of order.


Jean-François Pouliot: Yes. I will explain to him that there is positively nothing disrespectful in what I have said.


James Layton Ralston: If that is so-


Jean-François Pouliot: And I will ask the minister to sit down, please, and not interrupt me while I am speaking to a point of order.


James Layton Ralston: I am speaking to a point of order.


Jean-François Pouliot: Exactly. And I have to say that what I have said is in order, and I will not speak of anything else. My contention is that it is my duty, my solemn duty, to establish to the satisfaction of the Chair that I have not infringed the rules of the house while I was speaking on this subject. And I do not want my words to be distorted by anybody. I never said that it was because a man had fat contracts that he had been appointed to the senate. My hon. friend said that. But I said that a man who had fat contracts had been appointed to the senate and had received a reward besides his contract. And this I can say, and it is not disrespectful to say it. It is not attacking the honourableness of the man, in the first place.
In the second place, if I say that the senate is an anachronism, there is absolutely nothing insulting about it. And I will take the dictionary to prove to you that the definition of "anachronism" has not anything at all disrespectful, or that is against the rules of the house. Moreover, I have the Concise Oxford dictionary from the table. This is the dictionary that is to give us the true significance of each word.
Anachronic: Involving anachronism; out of date.
Anachronism: Error in computing time; thing out of harmony with the present. So anachronistic.
In French, anachronisme. Is there anything against the rules of the house in using the word "anachronism"? Then, I used the word "nonentity." Well, when the senate does not sit, can we call the senate an entity? It is an entity, theoretically, but not in fact. At the present time the senate is not sitting. I can say it is a nonentity; they do not exist. Is there something that is disrespectful in mentioning those facts?
What did I say besides that? I said a gentleman had an important job with a big salary, while he was appointed to the senate- or before he was appointed to the senate. This is not disrespectful. I did not attack their character. He has no right to sue me for libel or slander if I say it in this house. Moreover, I can say it in the drawingroom of the princess; it is the king's language. And what did I say? I said that the other fellow had no political background. Is there something disrespectful about that? I take it, statement after statement, and there is positively nothing disrespectful in what I have said. On the other hand, if this committee of the whole has become a star chamber, I will not insist any more. But on the other hand, I ask the Minister of National Defence not to be so touchy.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Order.


Jean-François Pouliot: And to let members enjoy the rights that they have under the constitution.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: On the point of order raised, the hon. member has stated his case, and I wish to give a ruling. I have already read to the committee standing order 41. I have no doubt in my mind that there were some disrespectful words uttered against the senate, and some newly appointed members of the senate, and I ask the hon. member to withdraw them.


Jean-François Pouliot: I will consider withdrawing when you mention what I have said that was out of order, or that was not in accordance with the rules of the house.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I shall read again standing order 41:
No member shall speak disrespectfully of His Majesty, nor of any of the royal family; nor of the governor or person administering the government of Canada; nor use offensive words against either house, or against any member [DOT]thereof.
I maintain that the insinuation against two newly appointed members of the senate, of fat contracts and receiving rewards, should be withdrawn.


Jean-François Pouliot: I never made that insinuation.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: These are the words which the hon. member actually used-"fat contract, and received rewards". The word "anachronism" might be parliamentary; but surely the word "nonentity" cannot be applied to the senate, and members of it. The statement that the hon. member made, that because senators are not sitting, it is a nonentity, cannot be applied to the senate when they are not sitting.
fMr. Ralston. 1

War Appropriation-Trade and Commerce


Jean-François Pouliot: I have no objection to withdrawing the word "nonentity" if you feel like that. But with regard to the other things I said, that a man had fat contracts, but got another reward-that is what I said.


James Layton Ralston: I do not wish to take the time of the committee; I think sufficient time has been taken. At the same time, this is a matter of serious principle.


Jean-François Pouliot: Surely it is.


James Layton Ralston: I wish to know just what the hon. member has withdrawn, and what he has not.


Jean-François Pouliot: I have withdrawn the word "nonentity" at the request of the chair.


James Layton Ralston: I am addressing the chair.


Jean-François Pouliot: I was, too.


James Layton Ralston: I propose to address the
chair when I have the floor. I have asked what has been withdrawn.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: The word "nonentity"
uttered against the senate has been withdrawn.
I rule that the word "anachronism" would be in order. And I also ask the hon. member for Temiscouata to withdraw the statement he made against a newly-appointed member of the senate, that he made an alleged fat contract, and received an award.


Jean-François Pouliot: I cannot withdraw a thing which I have not said.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: You will have to make an appeal to the house, then.


Jean-François Pouliot: I wish to say what I have said, that a man had fat contracts from Macmillan, or something like that, after which he got a reward. This is what I said.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I must say that if the hon. member refuses to withdraw the statement against the newly-appointed member, I must report him to the Speaker.


Jean-François Pouliot: You may report it to the Speaker; all right.


James Layton Ralston: The item stands, then.
Item stands.



DEPARTMENT OP MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY

[Stage Direction]
nil. Dominion fuel 'board, administration and investigations, $32,120.
Stanley Howard Knowles: Just to have the record straight, before we went into supply the Minister of National Defence sent me a note to the effect that the government intended to call two departments. I had absolutely no objection. I would point out, however, that
on Friday night, he said that we would move into supply, and call an item in the Department of Munitions and Supply. The indication then was that there would be just one department.


James Layton Ralston: I sent my hon. friend a note with regard to it. It really is not another department. I thought legislation would be the most innocuous item that could be suggested; but I was mistaken in that.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I just wanted to have
the record clear.


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: Item 174 stands.
Item stands.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Before reporting to the house I shall have to see Hansard, so that I can see the statement made by the hon. member for Temiscouata.


James Layton Ralston: There are other matters that will have to be dealt with also when Hansard is sent for. In the meantime, I move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again this day.
Progress reported.



WAR APPROPRIATION BILL


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Friday, May 26, consideration in committee of a resolution to grant to His Majesty certain sums of money for the carrying out of measures consequent upon the existence of a state of war- Mr. Ilsley-Mr. Bradette in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
Export permit branch - administration, $153,805.
Ernest Edward Perley: Could the minister make a general statement on these five or six items? This would facilitate our obtaining information when we come to deal with the particular items.


James Angus MacKinnon: Mr. Chairman, I think the suggestion of the hon. member is a good one. As a matter of fact I shall be glad to tell the committee something of the work going on in the department in connection with these various items under this war appropriation. I shall deal first with the export permit branch. This branch was established in the Department of Trade and Commerce in April, 1941. The purpose of export control is, first,
3332	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Trade and Commerce
to conserve materials for Canada's own requirements or those of her allies; second, to prevent exports going to dangerous destinations or undesirable consignees; third, to fulfil our commitments to the United Kingdom; fourth, to conserve supplies for Canadian civilian use and, fifth, to aid in the administration of United States export control and domestic policy and to prevent Canada from being used as a back door by persons wishing to evade United States export regulations.
This branch considers applications for permits to export and issues or refuses them after consultation with the various administrators and controllers. An interdepartmental committee on export control upon which are representatives of trade and commerce, munitions and supply, wartime prices and trade board and all other departments concerned, deals with special questions in regard to the issuance of export permits which present particular problems from the point of view of shortage of supply, allocation of exports to different markets, et cetera.
Subsidies are paid by the dominion government in order to maintain Canadian domestic price ceilings. These subsidies are not payable on goods for export. The export permit branch recovers any subsidy paid before issuing a permit. The amount of subsidies recovered from September 1, 1942, to April 30, 1944, was $407,998.81. This money was remitted, partly to the prices stabilization board and to the Department of Agriculture for dairy supplies. Export quotas have been set up for a number of commodities and this division supervises the allocation of them. A fee of $2 is charged for each permit to export, the value of which exceeds $100, and the revenue for the present fiscal year amounts to S174,394.91.


Ernest Edward Perley: The minister has made a statement with regard to export permits and I notice that practically the same statement appears in his annual report. Could he give us the number of permits issued this year, not only for the exporting of general commodities but for the products of western Canada other than grain? I understand that his department controls the general export of everything, grain included. Perhaps the minister can give us the number of permits issued for the export of grain, to the United States in particular, and also the policy of the government with respect to the use of United States transportation facilities. As I understand it, a number of United States cars are sent direct to the western provinces and do not come under the same regulations that 	,
govern shipments by lake boats. Perhaps he can give us a little information about this.
Later on I shall have something to say about the different items. I notice that the auditor's report contains an item with respect to drawbacks received by the mills. The minister has said that subsidies are not paid on goods for export, but how about flour? I understand that a subsidy or a drawback is paid to the mills on wheat which is to be manufactured into flour, for both domestic and export use. How do they keep these apart? From the minister's statement I would gather that flour for export would not cany any subsidy or drawback, and I should like some information as to how the millers keep their accounts of these subsidies; how they keep track of the wheat used to produce domestic flour.
I think we should have an auditor's report as to the subsidies paid to the mills or whoever received it, also a statement as to the price paid for the grain delivered to the mills and the basis upon which the flour is sold. The other day a return was brought down by the minister's department giving the price of flour at Saint John, and on the basis of that return we find that the price of wheat figures out at more than a basis of $1.25 Fort William. This return was tabled on May 15 in reply to my request for prices of flour at Saint John and Vancouver. It shows that for mutual aid the price was $9.46 per 280 pounds. If you figure out how much wheat it takes to produce 280 pounds of flour you will find that they ought to have at least $1.50 for the wheat, taking it on the basis of forty-five pounds of flour from a bushel of wheat. Then there would be the middlings and bran and so on, which, according to the bureau of statistics, would figure at about twenty-seven cents. If we take these figures it comes to $1.77 for the wheat. How about the drawback which the miller gets? Is it the miller that gets it? If so, that amount would have to be added on top of the $1.77. What is the per bushel drawback, which would have to be added to the $1.77, including flour, middlings, bran and shorts on the minister's own basis of 280 pounds, Saint John, $9.40?


James Angus MacKinnon: I am very anxious to give the hon. member for Qu'Appelle and any other hon. member all possible information on any of the items coming before the committee this afternoon. The item before us deals with export permits, and the hon. member is asking for information which is entirely foreign to the subject under discussion. Some of the information he has asked for could be given on my civil estimates. He has also asked for information as to

Fundy Air Lines
millers' drawbacks. That does not come under this department but under the Department of Finance.
The hon. member asked as to the number of export permits issued this year. The total number issued was 99,153. I am sorry I have not a break-down of these items, showing the commodities covered.
The hon. member also asked as to the use of United States cars for the movement of wheat. That does not in any way come under this item.


Ernest Edward Perley: Does it not come under export?


James Angus MacKinnon: It would not come under export permits, because export permits are not used in connection with that movement at all. The hon. member will have an opportunity to get that information on my civil estimates, when I shall be prepared to give it to him. I am not hesitating at all to give all the information available now, but I think it would facilitate the discussion if we confined ourselves to the item before us.


Ernest Edward Perley: I know that a man has to have a permit to ship grain to the United States and that it would go there in some United States cars. I think my questions are quite pertinent therefore, Mr. Chairman.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: There is this difficulty when there are both civil and war appropriation estimates. I think, however, it would shorten the discussion if the minister's suggestion were to be followed. He has stated that he has not the information before him that the hon. member desires.


Ernest Edward Perley: I submit, Mr. Chairman, that my questions are pertinent, because according to the auditor general's report, page Y-6, after "Canadian shipping board administration" the next item that appears is "drawback claims for millers" and the next item is "export permit branch administration", and these items are all listed under the Department of Trade and Commerce. Further details are given on pages Y-25, Y-26, Y-27 and Y-28. I should like the figures of expenditures to compare them with the expenditures given in the auditor general's report for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1943, for "export permit branch administration".


James Angus MacKinnon: The amount voted for 1943-44 was $144,160 for the export permit branch. This year we are asking for $153,805. The total expenditure for the fiscal year 1942-43 was $99,842.11, and for 1943-44, $136,851.78. The revenue for the
fiscal year 1942-43 was $139,727.53, and the revenue for 1943-44 was $174,394.81, showing that this branch operated at a profit of some $40,000 for the year.


Ernest Edward Perley: The minister stated that the number of permits issued was 99,153. Quite a number of permits were refused last year according to the last annual statement. Would the minister state how many permits have been refused this year and to where the goods were consigned?


James Angus MacKinnon: I have not that information before me at the moment.


Ernest Edward Perley: Perhaps we could get it after eight o'clock.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


James Layton Ralston: I move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again this day.
Progress reported.



PRIVATE BILLS


[Stage Direction]
The house in committee on bill No. 89, to incorporate Fundy Air Lines-Mr. Pottiex- Mr. Bradette in the chair.
On section 1-Incorporation.
Stanley Howard Knowles: I understand that the
committee proposed an amendment to this bill. Should we not know where the amendment fits in?


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: There are some amendments.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 2 to' 6 inclusive agreed to.
On section 7-Powers of the company.
Richard Burpee Hanson: If hon.
members will read the powers of the company they will at once be impressed with the far-reaching powers that are sought. I only desire to call attention to this phase of it. The real object of the company, I assume, is to incorporate an air transportation line or lines. But this company can carry on the business of bus proprietors, and builders and manufacturers. It can also carry on the business of insurance. I should like to have some assurance that the superintendent of insurance is cognizant of

Fundy Air Lines

the provisions of this bill. Would the promoter be good enough to tell the committee if this bill has the imprimatur of the superintendent of insurance? I wish to point out to this committee that the powers here are almost unheard of. I am not going to vote against the principle of the bill. I want to see the proprietors, the incorporators, get a charter to incorporate an aeroplane company, but I do not want them to go into the business of insurance; I do not think they ought to go into the business of a bus company, and above everything else I do not think they ought to go into the business of stock jobbing, because that is in this bill too. I am surprised to find that they are asking for so many powers. I wonder whether the committee gave consideration to all the powers sought and what reasons were assigned by the promoters for asking for the multiplicity of powers. I suggest that this is a kind of blanket affair. They want a great deal more than they ought to receive from this House of Commons. I merely point that out to the committee and to the Minister of Transport who is in his place at this time. I wonder whether he has taken cognizance of the tremendous powers asked for by this company. They have almost enough power to hang a man. I wonder whether his department has given consideration to that aspect of the bill and whether those considerations were in any degree considered by the committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines. In a nutshell, I think the pow'ers asked for are too w'ide.
I am anxious to see this company have a bill passed that will enable them to operate aeroplane transportation, because this is private enterprise which I like to see encouraged in this country, and in which many of us still believe. I am sure the minister believes in it, too, if he would only allow himself to give self-expression.
I should like the promoter to explain the omnibus powers that are asked for in this bill.


Mr. POTTIER:: The hon. member for York-Sunbury has asked for an explanation on the three objects of this bill. His first question has to do with paragraph (f) with regard to insurance.


Richard Burpee Hanson: No; the first objection I had, if it can be called an objection, was to the power to carry on the business of omnibus proprietors and builders- paragraph (d) of section 7.


Vincent-Joseph Pottier: I take it, that that paragraph means they are asking for power to carry on that business in connection with air lines.


Richard Burpee Hanson: No, that is not it.


Gordon Graydon: I am afraid the courts would not so interpret it.


Vincent-Joseph Pottier: That is the intention here. They wish power to carry on any business that would be connected with the carrying on of a successful air line. That is what they are asking here. That is what I take that paragraph to mean.
In so far as paragraph (f) is concerned, the insurance mentioned there is insurance of a kind connected with the operation which they are entitled to carry on; that is, to-
.	.	. act as agents for accident, indemnity
and all other kinds of insurance in connection with the operations which the company is entitled to carry on or in connection with similar operations carried on by other companies, firms or persons.
I take that to be insurance connected with the business of air lines?


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is a
fair interpretation.


Vincent-Joseph Pottier: I think the next objection of the hon. member for York-Sunbury was to stock jobbing. I do not think there is any power under paragraph (f) to do any stock jobbing. I take that to be paragraph (j).


Richard Burpee Hanson: There is no limit in the section to what they can do.


Vincent-Joseph Pottier: I do not think the company has the power implied by the hon. member for York-Sunbury.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I submit that paragraph (d) of section 7 is an alternative power to paragraphs (a), (b) and (c), and under any proper statutory interpretation is in no way connected with the business of aeroplane passage. That is not so true with respect to paragraph (f) of section 7. That paragraph expressly provides that in connection with the business of the company, the company may act as agent. Of course I think that is an appurtenance of the business of carrying on an aeroplane company and I would not have so much objection to that.


Douglas King Hazen: That is the omnibus business too.


Richard Burpee Hanson: But in connection with paragraphs (h), (i) and (j), I suggest these are pretty large powers. I never saw them given to a joint stock company in just this language, and I doubt if they can get it under the Companies Act of Canada or of any of the other provinces. It seems to me that the draftsman who prepared this bill must have had something in his mind when

Fundy Air Lines
he asked for all these rather extraordinary powers to deal with the distribution and capitalization among the shareholders of undivided profits and the reserves by assigning shares to the shareholders holding shares pro rata and so forth. That part could obviously be under the Joint Stock Companies Act, but certainly I do not think this company needs to have a bus franchise and to be a bus company because the same people now have a bus company that almost covers the province of New Brunswick. S.M.T. Limited is controlled by the same interests.
These are the main objections I would have and perhaps the only ones. The borrowing powers in section 8 and the ancillary and incidental powers in section 9, I have no objection to at all. If the committee desires to pass this bill as it is I am satisfied, but I think I should point these things out to the committee.


Gordon Graydon: I do not think the hon. member who is sponsoring this bill has made out a very good case in respect of section 7. I should like to ask the hon. member if in the committee stage of the bill the powers to be conferred on this company by this legislation as contained in paragraph (d) namely, to carry on the business of omnibus proprietors and builders, -were discussed, and, if so, what decision was arrived at and what were the reasons given by the committee for arriving at that decision. As pointed out by the hon. member for York-Sunbury, and very properly so, the powers asked for in paragraphs (a), (b), (c) and (d) are powers that are in no way limited to the ordinary aeroplane business. I take it that is the case in so far as paragraph (e) is concerned. It says: "for the better carrying on of the business of the company". Then there are several paragraphs which are limited and perhaps confined and restricted because they come within the business of the company, but so far as paragraph (d) is concerned that is in an entirely different category. If paragraph (d) passes and it means anything, it means that we are conferring upon this company the right to carry on the business of omnibus transportation, and I think the point should be further explained.


Vincent-Joseph Pottier: It would be incidental to their business, I should say, to operate a bus from the airport to some central point, and it seems a fair power to ask that they be able to operate a bus to carry passengers from an aerodrome to some central point in a town or city. As far as I know there is no intention of going beyond that.


Gordon Graydon: If that were done under paragraph (e) I do not think there would be
100-210i
any real objection, because then it would be within the confines of the comapny's own business.


Vincent-Joseph Pottier: If that is the only objection of the leader of the opposition I would not mind if he moved an amendment making this a subparagraph under (e).


Richard Burpee Hanson: Would the hon. member tell us if those powers were discussed in the railway committee?


Vincent-Joseph Pottier: Yes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Was there any discussion with respect to (d), and what was the explanation of the promoter or his agents?


Vincent-Joseph Pottier: There was no particular discussion of paragraph (d) before the standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines. There was a general discussion of the powers asked for in the bill, and the agents of the incorporators, who were there, offered to answer any question; but there was no particular discussion of (d).


Richard Burpee Hanson: Was the bill read to the committee, or was it just called section by section? This paragraph (d) is not limited to bus transportation within the business of the company. This is a federal charter and it gives them the right to operate omnibus service anywhere in Canada. You can get that right under provincial companies acts, and you cannot run on the highways without a licence from the provincial government, but this gives the company the right to operate interprovincial bus traffic. Did it ever occur to the committee to investigate that point and ask why this power should be requested?


Vincent-Joseph Pottier: This is merely incidental, I may tell my hon. friend.


Richard Burpee Hanson: If my hon. friend will pardon me, I suggest that on a proper construction of this section 7, paragraphs (a), (b), (c) and (d) are distinctly operating powers. They may be nothing but omnibus proprietors and builders which, under provincial jurisdiction, carries with it the right to use the highways. However, I am not going to say anything more about it; if the house is willing to put through legislation of this kind I am satisfied.


Mr. HOWE:: Just to shorten the discussion, may I say that this bill does not give the company the right to operate anything. It is an application to incorporate a company. Ordinarily applications for the incorporation of companies are granted freely by the govern-
Fundy Air Lines

ment, provided that they comply with the dominion Companies Act. I believe I am responsible for recommending to the government that in connection with companies seeking incorporation to operate air lines the approval of this House of Commons should be obtained. I did so for one reason. A year or eighteen months ago, at a time when it was impossible to operate any air line company owing to the fact that no equipment could be obtained and no gasoline could be allowed, the Secretary of State was being flooded with applications for the incorporation of companies to operate air lines, with titles that were most comprehensive. One that I recall was the Canada-West Indies Air Line company; another was the Canada-North Atlantic Air Line company, and I could name several more. At that time the government had not announced its policy dealing with the operation of air services. It was quite obvious, or at least it seemed to me quite possible, that those desiring the incorporation of companies with names such as I have mentioned intended to trade on the name of the company as an asset, which seemed to me quite improper. Therefore I asked council to require that the approval of this house be obtained in connection with the incorporation of any air line company. My thought was that those desiring incorporation should come before the committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines and explain why they wanted to incorporate a company, and give hon. members any explanations that might be required. I would point out that, had the government not taken that step, this company could have gone to the Secretary of State and been incorporated with any powers the incorporators wished to include in the bill.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Only those coming within the statute.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, within the statute. I may add, however, that under the declared pqlicy of the government it will be quite impossible for this company to operate an air line and also a bus line. That is expressly prohibited by legislation which has been placed on the order paper; and unless the incorporators can satisfy the government that they intend to operate within declared government policy, they will not be assigned a route over which they may operate. I should like to make it clear that this bill gives the company no permission to operate anything.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I take issue with that statement. It is quite true that the bill in itself will not entitle this company to operate aeroplane transportation.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Nor bus lines.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Well,
would the minister produce any order in council that prevents the incorporation of a company to operate interprovincial bus lines? 1 assure him it is a fact that under provincial legislation a bus company may be incorporated to operate bus lines within a province. It is true in my province, and I assume it is true in all the other provinces. That may not and probably does not mean that they can operate interprovincial traffic, because when they go beyond the confines of one province according to my view of the law they come within the jurisdiction of the federal parliament ; that is to say, with respect to transportation between the provinces. I am asking the minister now if there is an order in council passed under the provisions of the War Measures Act, which prevents a company from getting a federal charter under the Companies Act, without coming to parliament. Has an order in council been passed of the same nature as that relating to aeroplane companies? I am just asking that for information. The minister shakes his head; I take it for granted that such an order in council has not been passed.


Clarence Decatur Howe: If a company wished to get a federal charter to operate bus lines, I suppose it could do so without coming to parliament, but if the company wanted to operate in more than one province it would have to satisfy each province, and also obtain operating rights from each province, in which case it would hardly need dominion incorporation to operate across provincial boundaries.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Well, they would be under the jurisdiction of the board of transport commissioners with regard to rates and that sort of thing. It is quite true that you cannot operate on the highways of a province without a licence from the government of that province, even if you have a dominion charter. So that when the minister made the sweeping statement he did make, that this company could not operate anything, I think on reflection he will agree that that was just a little too large an order. I agree with him, entirely, that as the law now stands this company could not operate air lines transportation, without much more. However, I am not going into that.
Nor do I wish to be misunderstood. I am anxious that this company should have a charter to operate aeroplanes. They can then fight their way through to a satisfactory conclusion. But I think the powers they have asked for are too wide. They can do almost anything, and I am rather astonished that hon.

Fundy Air Lines
members in this house, who have legal minds, have not been aroused. Just read over the powers as to how they can switch these shares, or reserves, or undivided profits. I thought those days were pretty well over in Canada;
I imagine they would meet with a good deal of trouble from the income tax division.
However, I am not going to hold up the bill, nor did I ever intend to. But I really am astonished at the magnitude of the powers asked for to operate an aeroplane transportation company, and I think my duty is done in pointing out these facts to parliament.


Mr. MACDONALD (Kingston City):: I
think the hon. member will find, upon reading section 10, that the powers of the company are cut down considerably by that section.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That probably is true.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: They can do only such things as the Aeronautics Act and the Transportation Act allow them to do. So that that cuts down considerably what they can do.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Yes; that is an overriding restriction; but it is not allinclusive.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe) said a moment ago that, if passed, this bill would give the company no power to operate anything. I take it that in a sense what he has said is correct. Yet, if that is so I do not understand why the hon. member for Shelburne-Yarmouth-Clare bothers to introduce the biii.


Clarence Decatur Howe: He wishes to incorporate a company; that is all.


Stanley Howard Knowles: It seems to me that if the incorporation of the company is granted by the bill, and the company starts in to sell shares and get itself organized, it will be in a position to do things contrary to the policies laid down by the minister when he spoke on March 17. I refer in particular to what he said on that date. He said that one reason for halting expansion was that the young men who should have a prominent part in any such expansion are overseas on combat duty.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What about these men; they were all overseas?


Stanley Howard Knowles: On the other hand the minister pointed out it was not too early to plan for orderly and rapid expansion of our domestic aviation. I wholly agree with the two statements the minister made on that occasion. I am wondering whether the incorporation of this company does not give them
certain powers, and give them the right to get started, to sell their shares, and actually vitiate the two principles the minister laid down. I particularly emphasize the minister's suggestion that the expansion of our air services should be on an orderly basis.
I do not agree with the hon. member for York-Sunbury, that the way to achieve orderly expansion is to go on giving wide-open privileges to private enterprise. It seems to me that, to be consistent with the position he took on March 17, the Minister of Munitions and Supply should oppose the passing of this bill.


Mr. NOSEWORTHY:: I was going to remark that in view of the fact that the house has not yet hadi an opportunity of considering legislation of a similar class to be brought down by the minister, namely, that of setting up a transport board for aviation, and other legislation pertinent to the working out of the government's policy, it is premature to ask hon. members to support this measure. I would favour withholding support of the bill until such time as government legislation in the field of aviation has come before the house, and until we have had an opportunity of understanding it.


Richard Burpee Hanson: In justice to the promoters of the bill, I would say that the five names mentioned in section 1 meet 1.00 per cent the suggestion made that returned men are to be given opportunities to operate aeroplane companies-men returned from the last war. I know all these men, with one exception. Mr. Rogers has to his credit in the last war the destruction of eleven German aircraft. Mr. Ritchie was a gallant soldier in the last war, and up to a recent date rendered yeoman service in this war in organizing the army in militarj^ district No. 7. Mr. Bell is a personal friend of mine; and he, too, had a most creditable war record. Mr. Kenneth C. Irving, who will be head of the company, also had a fine record in the last war. I do not know Mr. Hodgins personally, but I am informed that he, too, is a veteran of the last war. So that these men qualify 100 per cent for the minister's definition1-although I do not suppose the minister thinks that anyone who is a non-soldier should not be allowed to be engaged in the aeroplane business.
I say this in justice to these men. I am anxious to see the bill go through, but I submit that the powers they have asked for are really beyond reason, for an aeroplane transportation company.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 8 and 9 agreed to.
Private Bills
[Stage Direction]
On section 10-Limitations.
Stanley Howard Knowles: Was this section not
amended? Would the Chairman read the section as amended?


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: It states:
10. The operation of the company shall be carried on throughout the Dominion of Canada and elsewhere and shall be subject to the provisions of the Aeronautics Act, chapter 3 of the revised Statutes of Canada, 1927, and of the Transport Act, 1938, chapter 53 of the statutes of 1938, and amendments thereto.


Stanley Howard Knowles: What is the amendment?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: It consists in the addition of the words "and amendments thereto."


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Yes; those three words constitute the amendment.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. R. W. GRAY (Lambton West) moved the second reading of bill No. 10, for the relief of Theodore Zalopany.
Jean-François Pouliot: Mr. Speaker, I desire to protest once more against this legislation. It is being disposed of quickly, but there is no reason why the Senate and the House of Commons should pay any attention to legislation of this kind. It represents some work to examine these cases in committee and investigate them, but most of the records are disgraceful and it is unfortunate that such evidence is published by the king's printer. I hope that the time will come when these bills do not appear on the order paper of this house. If the other house enjoys listening to cases like this, that is their business, but I think we should dispense with this type of legislation. There should be another type of legislation which would not require to be passed by the House of Commons, only by the Senate, and which would not appear on our order paper.
Motion agreed to and bill read the second time.



SECOND READINGS-SENATE BILLS

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 11, for the relief of Thelma Alice Warren Whittet.-Mr. Fulford.
Bill No. 12, for the relief of Ethel Sangster Muir.-Mr. Factor.
Bill No. 13, for the relief of Kiril John Christo.-Mr. Gray.
Bill No. 14, for the relief of Helaine Ethel Leopold Lax.-Mr. Mcllraith.

Bill No. 15, for the relief of Cecil Benjamin Pomeroy.-Mr. Mcllraith.
Bill No. 16, for the relief of Pinnie Rosenhek Leopold.-Mr. Casselman (Grenville-Dundas).
Bill No. 17, for the relief of Paul Sanson White.-Mr. Fulford.
Bill No. 18, for the relief of Mary Hope Beers Ross.-Mr. Mcllraith.
Bill No. 19, for the relief of Wasyl Usypchuk, otherwise known as William Usypchuk.-Mr. Factor.
Bill No. 20, for the relief of Walter Stanley Spencer.-Mr. Fulford.
Bill No. 21, for the relief of Emma Gertrude Groves Morris.-Mr. Hill.
Bill No. 22, for the relief of Gertrude Margaret Amy Ogilvie.-Mr. Hazen.
Bill No. 23, for the relief of Myrtle Josephine Teel Odell.-Mr. Emmerson.
Bill No. 24, for the relief of Marjorie Helen Parker Leduc.-Mr. Boucher.
Bill No. 25, for the relief of Margaret Derry Kirby.-Mr. Boucher.
Bill No. 26, for the relief of George Thomas Bragger.-Mr. Hill.
Bill No. 27, for the relief of Freda Watson Norman Daniels.-Mr. Emmerson.
Bill No. 28, for the relief of Iris Mabel Dash Wilkinson.-Mr. Hill.
Bill No. 29, for the relief of Joseph Ulric Edouard Burns.-Mr. Hill.
Bill No. 30, for the relief of Thomas Henry Dwyer.-Mr. Maclnnis.
Bill No. 31, for the relief of Elsie Margaret Ormandy Henderson.-Mr. Boucher.
Bill No. 32, for the relief of Arthur Charles Duffy.-Mr. Gray.
Bill No. 33, for the relief of Kathleen Edna Ellis Wainwright.-Mr. Hill.
Bill No. 34, for the relief of Diana Lenore Carsley Tenenhouse.-Mr. Gray.
Bill No. 42, for the relief of Charlotte Muriel Wright.-Mr. Stokes.
Bill No. 43, for the relief of Sarah Carmichael Hay Johnston.-Mr. Emmerson.
Bill No. 44, for the relief of Margaret Georgina Isabel Townsend Mansfield.-Mr. Emmerson.
Bill No. 45, for the relief of Pasquale Di Guglielmo.

Mr. Hazen.
Bill No. 46, for the relief of Theodora B. Ostlund Fruitier.-Mr. Fulford.
Bill No. 47, for the relief of Erna Warthold Langlois.-Mr. Hill.
Bill No. 48, for the relief of Ruth Steinwold Lauer.-Mr. Maclnnis.
Bill No. 49, for the relief of George Hodgson Fisher.-Mr. Mcllraith.
Bill No. 50, for the relief of Molly Gurevitch Gladman.-Mr. Factor.
Bill No. 51, for the relief of Goldie Anker Lazanik.-Mr. Boucher.

War Appropriation-Trade and Commerce
Bill No. 55, for the relief of Julia Menard Mills.-Mr. Hill.
Bill No. 56, for the relief of Vera Esteri Seppala Vuorimies.-Mr. Hill.
Bill No. 57, for the relief of Violet Magdalen Johnson Overall.-Mr. Hazen.
Bill No. 58, for the relief of Adelard Belanger.

Mr. Hill.
Bill No. 59, for the relief of Edna Lyall Burgess Lambert.-Mr. Boucher.
Bill No. 60, for the relief of Barbara Hellen Smith Dodds.-Mr. Mcllraith.
Bill No. 61, for the relief of Ellen Margaret Doris Sheehan Decary.-Mr. Mcllraith.
Bill No. 62, for the relief of Kathleen O'Raw Major.-Mr. Fulford.
Bill No. 63, for the relief of Vernon Oswald Marquez.-Mr. Fulford.
Bill No. 66, for the relief of Wilson Allan Martin.-Mr. Fulford.
Bill No. 67, for the relief of Victoria May Larkin Kirkcaldy.-Mr. Casselman (Grenville-Dundas).
Bill No. 68, for the relief of Nellie Blinkhorn Cowie.-Mr. Maclnnis.
Bill No. 69, for the relief of William Mace. -Mr. Casselman (Grenville-Dundas).
Bill No. 70, for the relief of Pauline Hislop Ralph.-Mr. Casselman (Grenville-Dundas.
Bill No. 71, for the relief of Ethel Mary Moffatt Shaw.-Mr. Whitman.
Bill No. 72, for the relief of Alfreda Elsie Hatch Carpenter.-Mr. Maclnnis.
Bill No. 73, for the relief of Rachel Segal Kaparofsky.-Mr. Factor.
Bill No. 74, for the relief of Paul Lapointe. -Mr. Factor.
Bill No. 75, for the relief of Vera Grace Percy Moore.-Mr. Factor.
Bill No. 76. for the relief of Jean Fernand Georges Robitaille.

Mr. Maclnnis.
Bill No. 77, for the relief of Marie Stella Gisele Payette MacRae.-Mr. Gray.
Bill No. 78, for the relief of Horace Henry Chapman.-Mr. Hazen.
Bill No. 79, for the relief of Florence Berger Bassin.-Mr. Casselman (Grenville-Dundas).
Bill No. 80, for the relief of Roland Edouard Levert.-Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City).
Bill No. 81', for the relief of Alice Robert Rajotte.-Mr. Hill.
Bill No. 96, for the relief of William Cowie. -Mr. Hill.
Bill No. 97, for the relief of Nita Marjorie Hammerich Ward.-Mr. Casselman (Grenville-Dundas).
Bill No. 98, for the relief of Margaret Kirsen Brown MacRae.

Mr. Casselman (Grenville-Dundas) .
Bill No. 99, for the relief of Margaretha Bernhard Cronauer.-Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City).
Bill No. 100, for the relief of Henry Rattigan. -Mr. Fulford.
Bill No. 103, for the relief of Margaret Millar Short.-Mr. Mcllraith.
Bill No. 104, for the relief of Mary Annesley Iverson.-Mr. Factor.
Bill No. 105, for the relief of Annie Drewniak Sonberg.-Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City).
Bill No. 106, for the relief of Celia Zlatkes Azeff.-Mr. Mcllraith.
Bill No. 107, for the relief of Louisa OTool Shelley.-Mr. Factor.
Bill No. 108, for the relief of Miriam Schwartz Silcoff.-Mr. Macdonald (Brantford
City).

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 88 respecting The Kettle Valley Railway Company.-Mr. Stirling.
Bill No. 102, respecting Vancouver, Victoria and Eastern Railway and Navigation Company, The Nelson and Fort Sheppard Railway Company and Great Northern Railway Company.-Mr. Reid.


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed consideration in committee of a resolution to grant to His Majesty certain sums of money for the carrying out of measures consequent upon the existence of a state of war-Mr. Ilsley-Mr. Bradette in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
Export permit branch, administration, $153,805.
Ernest Edward Perley: When the committee took recess at six o'clock the minister was about to give some information with respect to the number of export permits that had been refused and why they were refused. While he is giving us that information, perhaps he could also tell us who comprise this shipping board.


James Angus MacKinnon: We are dealing with the export permit branch, not the shipping board.


Ernest Edward Perley: The minister was going to give us information with respect to the permits that had been refused.


James Angus MacKinnon: We have not in Ottawa the number of export permits that have been refused. I can get that information and give it later to the hon. member or submit it in any other way.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Where does the branch operate?
3340	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Trade and Commerce


James Angus MacKinnon: In Ottawa. I made a mistake in using the words "in Ottawa".


Ernest Edward Perley: How many export permits have been issued for grain from the western provinces to the United States direct, not through lake shippers?


James Angus MacKinnon: No permits are required for the export of No. 1, 2 or 3 northern wheat, and those are the grades that are being exported.


Ernest Edward Perley: What about feed wheat?


James Angus MacKinnon: The export of feed wheat requires a permit.
Mr.' PERLEY: How many were issued?


James Angus MacKinnon: I have not that information here, but possibly I can get it.


Richard Burpee Hanson: How many commodities require export permits, and what are they?


James Angus MacKinnon: Practically everything.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is what I thought. Has anything been overlooked? A man cannot even export his wife.


Joseph William Noseworthy: In connection with what countries are export permits required?


James Angus MacKinnon: All countries with which we do business.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is a most illuminating answer.


James Angus MacKinnon: It is comprehensive.


Richard Burpee Hanson: It is
intended to conceal. Name the countries.


James Angus MacKinnon: If I understand the hon. member correctly, he is asking about shipments to other countries, and he wants me to name the countries with which we do business and in connection with which export permits are required. I said, all countries with which we do business. That is a comprehensive answer. I cannot give any other answer unless I itemize them. I could start in with the countries on this hemisphere, then take the United Kingdom, Australia- and various other countries of the world.


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbuiy):: That is the answer; the American countries and certain others. That is a reasonable request.


Ernest Edward Perley: I asked for the number that had been refused and this afternoon the
tMr. R. B. Hanson.}
minister referred to this matter himself. In his departmental report it states that export permits were refused because of unsatisfactory consignees or destinations. Surely he can give us the number which have been refused this year, and to what countries. He gave the number for last year.


James Angus MacKinnon: The figure referred to by the hon. member covers export permits that were refused during the year ending March, 1943.


Ernest Edward Perley: That is the last report we have.


James Angus MacKinnon: Those are the figures to which the hon. member is now referring. I have not the figures as to the number of export permits refused for the year ending March 31, 1944.


Ernest Edward Perley: The minister stated this afternoon that 99,153 applications for export permits had been granted, and I was wondering why he could not give us the number that had been refused.


James Angus MacKinnon: I have not that information here. My hon. friend wanted to know the personnel of the export control committee. They are as follows: Mr. Mallory, of the Department of Trade and Commerce, is chairman of the committee, and the other members are Mr. Adams, of the foreign exchange control board, Mr. English of the Department of Trade and Commerce, Mr. Angus, of the Department of External Affairs, Mr. Geddes of the wartime prices and trade board, Mr. Taylor and Mr. Sproule of the wartime industries control board.


Ernest Edward Perley: The committee must have been enlarged considerably since 1943, because the last report shows the salaries and that there were not nearly as many employed in 1943.


James Angus MacKinnon: There are no salaries paid to the members of the committee.


Richard Burpee Hanson: They are
all civil servants?


James Angus MacKinnon: Yes.


Ernest Edward Perley: What salaries will be paid out of this vote?


James Angus MacKinnon: We are asking for $105,420 for 1944-45 salaries.


Ernest Edward Perley: That is a considerable increase over last year.


James Angus MacKinnon: An increase of $6,270.

War Appropriation-Trade and Commerce


Ernest Edward Perley: The last report of the auditor general shows $65,907 for salaries.


James Angus MacKinnon: I believe that is two years old.


Ernest Edward Perley: That is just another evidence of how difficult it is to get information with respect to the minister's department. I have here, for instance, a report on the grain business in Canada, dealing with the 1942 crop. That is two years old. We are approaching the 1943-44 crop, but we have no report more recent than this one which is two years old. The minister now says that the auditor general's report is two years old in giving the salaries. How can we make comparisons if we do not know what was paid for salaries last yeai ?


James Angus MacKinnon: The salaries paid last year amounted to $99,150, and we are asking for an increase this year of $6,270.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What is the basis or what are the bases upon which export permits are granted or refused? What is the policy and who decides the policy? Does this export permit board decide it, or is it a matter of government policy in a given case or with respect to a given commodity?


James Angus MacKinnon: I gave that information this afternoon. It considers applications for export permits and refuses or grants after consultation with the various administrators and controllers. Members of the committee will understand that we are the machinery through which these export permits are handled. Representations are made to us by other departments of government and by controllers and administrators, and the applications are then refused or approved.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Then it is
not purely an administrative body but a body with judicial functions. But it is not an entirely independent body. Its deliberations and its decisions are based upon the representations that may be made to it not only by applicants for export permits but by the controllers and what not set up by the government. I have in mind the export of seed potatoes within a few weeks. Some of these boards are given pretty wide powers. Do they ever consult the minister in a given case?


James Angus MacKinnon: Oh, yes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: In all cases?


James Angus MacKinnon: Not in all cases.


Richard Burpee Hanson: In how
many?


James Angus MacKinnon: It would be a fairly limited number.


Richard Burpee Hanson: So that the control of the export trade of this country through the issue of export permits is in the hands of a group of civil servants and the government has ceased to function as such.


James Angus MacKinnon: Oh, no.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is
what it comes to. They have fairly wide powers. I know of one particular case where seed potatoes were required very badly by our neighbours to the south. We were anxious to get in there in peace time. We would have given anything to establish a trade with the southern states in our seed potatoes from New Brunswick. But there was always considerable difficulty in getting a permit. I must say that in the case I had in point for one of my colleagues the board were very decent indeed when the facts were placed before them, and the permit was issued. But that is not always the case. Very wide powers are being given to these boards, and I am just wondering whether it is wise for the country to vest such wide powers in a group of civil servants, who, after all, are not business men. Not one of them could be called a business man.


James Angus MacKinnon: The export permit board does not take it upon itself to decide these matters without being guided largely by the administrators and controllers and, in the case of food products, by the advice of the Department of Agriculture. As I said before, the board is largely the administrative machinery.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The board
then can of its own powers grant or refuse a permit, notwithstanding the representations that may be made against such a course by some of these controllers or administrators?


James Angus MacKinnon: That would be possible.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I imagine the regulations are wide enough and extensive enough for that.


James Angus MacKinnon: I
would say so.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Here is a board that is exercising judicial functions, and there is discretion in the board. As I under-

3342	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Trade and Commerce
stand the minister, the board is not entirely bound by the representations that may be made either by the applicant or by others concerned. So that it must be exercising a judicial discretion and can of its own motion overrule the representations made to it. Is that a fact?


James Angus MacKinnon: It can, but almost invariably it follows the advice given to it by the administrators.


Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: Has there been any increase in the number of permits granted over last year and over the year before that? What are the figures for last year and the year before? How long does it take to have an export permit issued after it has been applied for?


James Angus MacKinnon: It depends entirely on the commodity. Some can be granted in a matter of hours. Some may take a day or two or a little longer.


Richard Burpee Hanson: How many applications were refused in the last fiscal year and what were the commodities? I think the (minister ought to have that information here.


James Angus MacKinnon: I shall be glad to get that information.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: The minister did not answer my question. How many permits were issued last year and the year before and was there an increase over the year previous? Is it the policy at the present time to increase as much as possible the number of export permits granted, in order to increase our external trade?


James Angus MacKinnon: I have not the exact figures, but there has been a substantial increase in the number of permits granted this year over last year. We are guided to a very large extent by the administrator. One reason why the board operates under the Department of Trade and Commerce is that the department is necessarily anxious to promote trade and business in every way and our approach to the matter of granting export permits is a sympathetic one.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Does the minister feel that everything possible is being done to grant these permits?


James Angus MacKinnon: Yes.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Is it the policy of the department to increase trade, and does the minister review from time to time the refusals to grant permits so as to see how matters line up? What responsibility does he take for refusal of permits?


James Angus MacKinnon: Any refusal is referred to the board for review.
!
That does not come to me except in the odd case. A question was asked about the actual number of permits issued in 1942-43 and 1943-44. They are respectively: 87,400 and 99,153.


Jean-François Pouliot: I desire to praise the minister for having said not long ago that we shall need a large number of ships for our trade after the war. Canada is an exporting nation and we shall have to find ships to convey our goods to all countries of the world. We shall need aeroplanes also and all other means of transport, and I hope there will be true collaboration and cooperation between the Minister of Trade and Commerce, the Minister of Agriculture and the Minister of Transport in order that our trade may be the largest after the war and, if possible, before the end of the war. The minister has men who are well trained in several commercial observation posts in all the countries that are not occupied by the enemy. But may I tell him this-and I want him to listen closely to what I tell him now, and not be disturbed by anyone while I am addressing the Chair on a matter like this. I say that we should have commercial independence in Canada. I am not for the political independence of Canada now.
Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury: Not yet.


Jean-François Pouliot: I will ask the hon. member for York-Sunbury not to try to be a mind-reader, because we shall put a fez on his head if he does-and something else. We have to be commercially independent, and if we go to South America as little brothers of big Uncle Sam we shall not be as well received as if we went there as Canadians, as citizens of a great and proud country. If we are under the tutelage of British ambassadors, ministers and consuls; if our commercial agents are not independent of them, in order to compete with them in trade, then our export trade will be a fiasco. I should like every serious-minded business man in the country to hear what is said now. If they want progress intrade; if they want to be successful in implanting their trade in other countries, next to British trade agents or Chinese trade agents or African trade agents, or any others, they must be entirely free. I thought it was a-great mistake when the Prime Minister announced the appointment of a Canadian consul general in New York and when he said that this official would work in cooperation with the British embassy. That was all wrong. Why? Because -the duty of the Minister of Trade and Commerce is to see to it that all Canadian traders compete with the traders of any other nation of the world. I want the

War Appropriation-Trade and Commerce
minister to Temember this because I speak to him as friend to friend and I know that he means well-


Richard Burpee Hanson: Beware of the Greeks.


Jean-François Pouliot: -and I know he is an able minister, a much abler minister than the last one in the Bennett cabinet. I say that with full knowledge and I appreciate the applause of the committee as I say that. It is true.
I do not say the other one meant badly, but I say that the minister we have now is much more competent than the one that was in charge at that time, and this I say because his predecessor, who may be illustrious in other ways, had no broad vision of trade such as the present one has. That is why I think it is so important that, instead of restrictions being applied by the export permit board or any other board, every facility should be given to red-blooded Canadians to export to other countries all the goods that are not required in this country for consumption. They must rely on the constant assistance of the Department of Trade and Commerce, and then it will not be for us to go after any other country for trade protection. We have ships. We have a fine merchant marine. We have been told that our navy has expanded considerably for the protection of our trade routes, and we shall have powerful rivals. I would ask hon. gentlemen to keep the peace for a moment. If they want to chatter, they should not sing a hymn too loudly.
I will say another thing to the minister. Not so long ago I read in the press that at the conclusion of the war or perhaps at the end of this year the merchant marine of the United States will comprise fifty thousand vessels and will be as large as all the combined merchant marines of the world. It is possible for Canadian shippers to ship their produce and goods on foreign vessels or on vessels of other countries, but it is also important that Canadian vessels be registered in Canada instead of in some other country. It is colonial to register Canadian ships in London, New York or anywhere else. It means that the owners of those ships are not sure enough of themselves to take advantage of our legislation to give credit to Canada for the vessels that are owned in Canada. I hope that the minister will not forget those observations too quickly; that he will remember them, and that since he has not the same turn of mind he will not give false interpretations to what I said as [DOT] his illustrious predecessors did in other ways.
I should like to say a few words with regard to one other matter. This matter is not of the same importance as general trade trends and
conditions. It is very difficult to get information about export permits for charcoal. There is a way of shipping charcoal in the United States and I am told that charcoal absorbs water. It is known by the exporters that some water is poured on charcoal to make it heavier and they receive a better weight. That is just as ingenious as the plans of the great Archimedes. It is apparent they must have studied physics, but they are not honest with the consignee. I will not give names below, but I shall give them later to the minister, and I shall ask him to make an investigation in due course so that the patrons of those shippers will not be deceived as to the weight of the shipment. I thank the committee for listening so generously to the few remarks which I have made, and which I made in order to promote Canadian trade and to try to relieve us of all inferiority complexes in matters that are so vital to the future of this country.


Mr. MARSHALL:: I wish to make one brief remark with respect to the export permit branch which was set up in 1941. Paragraph 2 on page 5 of the deputy minister's report is rather difficult to follow. We are told in that paragraph that 95,000 applications were received. Of those 95,000, 3,150 were refused. That would bring the total down to 91,850; yet we are told that only 87,400 permits were issued. I should like to know what happened to the 4,450. We are told that of that 87,450, 75,488 carry a $2 licence fee. Seventy-five thousand permits at $2 is $150,000; yet we are told a net revenue of $140,000 was produced. I think the minister should give an explanation of that particular paragraph, because it is not clear and may leave a wrong impression in the mind of the layman. It leaves a difficult impression in my own mind at the present time as to what it actually does mean.


James Angus MacKinnon: In answer to the hon. member for Camrose I would point out that out of 95,000 applications for export permits, 3,150 were refused on the advice of the administrators or controllers because of the supply situation in Canada; but in addition to that a substantial number were refused by the export board itself, for purposes of economic warfare.


James Alexander Marshall: Who refused the 3,150?


James Angus MacKinnon: They were refused on the advice of the administrators or controllers.


James Alexander Marshall: Therefore in reality, instead of only 3,150 applications being refused, 7,600 were refused.
3344	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Trade and Commerce


James Angus MacKinnon: Yes; the remainder were refused for other reasons: For example, people on the black list or supplies for countries like Spain and Portugal where there might be a danger of the goods reaching undesirable destinations


James Alexander Marshall: What permits could be refused by the administrator or controller? Who had the power to cancel such permits? Is that entirely in the hands of the minister himself?


James Angus MacKinnon: The refusal of those permits on the grounds of economic warfare is in the hands of the export board itself.
The hon. member pointed to the seeming discrepancy in the fees. The amount shown simply by multiplying the number of permits granted by the $2 fee does not take into account the rebates that were made later.


James Alexander Marshall: Would the minister
snlarge on that?


James Angus MacKinnon: Then permits under $100 do not require a $2 fee.


James Alexander Marshall: How many were there for goods under $100 that would not carry the $2 fee?


James Angus MacKinnon: There would be a large number. We have not the figures at the moment, but they would be substantial.


James Alexander Marshall: Might I have those figures?


James Angus MacKinnon: Yes; I shall be glad to get them for the hon. member.


James Alexander Marshall: When may we have an opportunity to discuss the board recently set up under the direction of the Minister of Trade and Commerce by order in council P.C. 70 of January 31 last, known as the Canadian export board? Evidently there is no vote here covering the operations of this board; yet according to the Commercial Intelligence Journal for February 12, for the purposes of this board it will be provided with a revolving credit, adjustable as experience demands, to provide adequate working capital. Shall we have an opportunity of discussing the establishment of this board, its operation and the amount of capital that has been set aside for it for the next twelve months, and when may we have that opportunity?


James Angus MacKinnon: It might be well for me to make a short state-
[Mr. Marshall.1
ment in that connection at this time. There is no vote under discussion covering this particular item. This board was not set up until January 31, 1944, and it was therefore too late to be included in the printed estimates. While there is no item under discussion, I am pleased to be able to tell hon. members of the committee some of the purposes of the board.
A number of overseas governments, for a variety of reasons, have insisted that imports into their countries must be effected by government agencies, and that import permits will not be issued for certain classes of goods. Procurement agencies have been set up in Ottawa by several governments, while others have their procurement agencies in the United States. The procurement of war supplies has been and continues to be done by the Department of Munitions and Supply. In the case of goods which are not strictly for use by the armed forces, however, it was felt that some other agency should be responsible for procurement. Even under this condition it was only after careful investigation had shown that orders were being placed elsewhere than in Canada that the Canadian export board was established by order in council P.C. 70, of January 31, 1944.
This board is acting as procurement agency for civilian goods for those countries which will not permit normal channels of trade to be used. Without the board, orders would be placed in other countries and Canada would lose valuable trade connections which would be difficult to regain for the post-war period. The export board also acts as one of the procurement agencies for the mutual aid board, handling goods which, although war supplies, are not actually munitions of war. There is, of course, close coordination between the export board and the Department of Munitions and Supply.
The export board operates on a non-profit basis and really functions as agent for overseas governments. Goods are furnished to other countries at the purchase price plus any additional charges which are necessarily incurred in completing the export transactions. The board is not competing with private enterprise and, in fact, is trying to divert business back to trade channels as and when conditions permit. When a request is received by the board from an overseas government, or from the mutual aid board administration, quotations are invited from all Canadian firms in a position to supply, or in accordance with any allocation which may have been established by the appropriate controller or administrator; thus normal trade channels and methods are utilized so far as possible.

Supply-Legislation-The Senate


James Alexander Marshall: One of the powers given to this board is to buy, sell, negotiate the purchase or sale of and engage in export trade in such commodities to such extent as the board may consider advisable. Does that mean the board can go into any part of Canada and buy these commodities, and then act as a sort of agent for the various companies in the sale of the commodities? For example, what work does it do in connection with agricultural products, let us say?


James Angus MacKinnon: This board will not buy until it is actually in possession of a buying order from some other government. Then it goes out and purchases the goods for delivery to the other government. Practically it acts as an agent for the other government.


Ernest Edward Perley: Then would the minister inform the committee how he deals with shipments for export under the mutual aid arrangement and, for instance, shipments of grain to Greece. Do the exporters require permits under the mutual aid arrangement, or does the government itself handle such shipments through some agency?


James Angus MacKinnon: Under mutual aid they do not require export permits. In connection with shipments of wheat to Greece export permits are required.


Ernest Edward Perley: Would the exporters secure that wheat from the wheat board and then get a permit to ship it; and would there be any commissions or brokerage fees charged on the grain?


James Angus MacKinnon: I can answer that question now, or it can be dealt with later in connection with the export of wheat to Greece.


Ernest Edward Perley: We might as well have it now; it will save us the necessity of asking the question again.


James Angus MacKinnon: The wheat for export is furnished by the wheat board.


Ernest Edward Perley: The exporters will have to get a permit from this board?


James Angus MacKinnon: Yes, for that purpose.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
James Layton Ralston: I move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again this day.
Progress reported.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Rradette in the chair.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: The official report of iebates shows that during the previous sitting of the committee to-day the hon. member for Temiscouata used the following words in speaking about the senate:
_ They have completely lost any sense of shame in the senate, and with the exception of two or three senators for whom I have the deepest admiration, I concur in what was said by the leader of the C.C.F. party as to the abolition of that body. . . .
If they were willing to work, if they had enough initiative, they could help us, they could play the part that was allotted to them under our constitution. . . .
The senate is a nonentity in parliament at the present time just on account of the unwillingness of the senators to do something while they are sitting there. . . .
But they are like an anachronism . . . it is the realm of rolling chairs and railroading bills. . . .
, I would not be for the abolition of the senate if the senators were really up to the standard of days gone by. . . .
Another is a gentleman who had fat contracts from the Department of Munitions and Supply for being the agent of Mr. MacMillan in the province of Quebec.
The hon. gentleman was asked to withdraw these offensive statements which are prohibited under standing order 41. He refused to give a full and unqualified explanation which can be considered as satisfactory or in keeping with the dignity of the house and the mutual respect that should exist between the Senate and the House of Commons. I must insist on an unqualified withdrawal.


Jean-François Pouliot: Mr. Chairman, will you kindly let me see the quotations? In the first place, I may tell you that I have gone to the Hansard room and I have asked them not to change an iota of their notes, an iota in the transcription of their notes, which means that I did not want to interfere with the report of Hansard, but which is not an acceptation of the transcription of the notes of Hansard in full.
For instance, in the first quotation I am reported as having said, "They have completely lost any sense of shame in the senate." I never said that. I said, "They have completely lost any usefulness in the senate." And I said

And with the exception of two or three senators for whom I have the deepest admiration I concur in what was said by the leader of the C.C.F. party as to the abolition of that body.
That was said-the second part.
Supply-Legislation-The Senate

Bult, at page 3329, I am quoted as having said:
I would not infringe the rule 'by saying that the senate is useless.
This I said. And it is naturally connected to the first part of the sentence; and I hoped that it would have been in the mind of the touchy little Emily Post-and when I use that expression I do not mean the Chair at all. Then it goes on:
If they were willing to work; if they had enough initiative, they could help us; they could play the part that was allotted to them under our constitution.
In order to show my willingness to cooperate, I am ready to withdraw, "If they were willing to work"-that phrase-and the sentence would read:
If they had enough initiative they could help us; they could play the part that was allotted to them under our constitution.
I do not think that sentence, as corrected, is against the standing order that you quoted.
There is another sentence:
The senate is a nonentity in our parliament at the present time, just on account of the unwillingness of the senators to do something while they are sitting there.
This I have withdrawn, and I do not see why any member should be obliged to withdraw the same thing twice. I remember that on a previous occasion, when Mr. Bennett was Prime Minister, he forced me-he tried to force me to withdraw a second time a thing I already had withdrawn, for the sake of peace, and to show my spirit of cooperation, and what the Prime Minister calls good will. But I do not see why the torture should be imposed upon a member of parliament who says a thing like that, and who has to kneel down twice. I am sure, and I believe in your fairness you will agree that a statement withdrawn once must be settled forever, until it is repeated again. But when I had to do so it was in explaining a case. And it is not because I have read the record that I shall be forced a second time to withdraw.
Then:
But they are like an anachronism.
This was declared in order-or not out of order. Therefore I have nothing to withdraw here. Then:
It is the realm of rolling chairs and railroading bills.
I made a mistake here, and I confess it. After having seen the performance on divorce bills, it is not the Senate that is the realm of rolling chairs and railroading bills; it is the House of Commons. We passed I do not know how many bills in eight or ten minutes, but

I was the only member to make any protest against them, although in many other instances other members have protested against them. But if we did not railroad bills to-night, then bills were never railroaded in parliament. Five pages of bills in five minutes-a page a minute; think of that! And in the senate they pass our bills over there, just the same as we pass their bills here. They are doing it just as fast. It is not railroading; it is the airways; it is the T.C.A., at 200 miles an hour.
"Of rolling chairs"-I withdraw it.
Then:
I would not 'be for the abolition of the senate if the senators were really up to the standard of days gone by.
I will substitute for it:
I would not be for the abolition of the senate if all the senators were really up to the standard of days gone by.
Then:
Another is a gentleman who had fat contracts from the Department of Munitions and Supply for being the agent of Mr. Macmillan in the province of Quebec.
Perhaps I did not express myself clearly enough. I did not have in mind any offensive remark against that gentleman personally. What I meant was that he was agent of Mr. Macmillan, and while he was agent of Mr. Macmillan he had huge contracts from the Department of Munitions and Supply. Afterwards I spoke of reward. By "reward" I meant a senatorship; and I would have said it if I had not been interrupted by the Minister of National Defence. I could not finish.
Further, I had something very fine to say about the fourth last appointee from the province of Quebec, Senator Lesage, who deserved an appointment to the senate, because he had been political organizer for the Liberal party for twenty-five years. And a man who had done that job for a quarter of a century deserves recognition. But I did not have an opportunity to say it. My remarks were cut right in the middle by someone who was exceedingly touchy. And it cannot be an insult to a man to say to him that he had big contracts from the department. And, mark you, there is something that is more important: I used the present tense in that case. I said:
One is a gentleman who has a fat salary.
This is present; it is not past.
Another is a gentleman who had-
And . this is the record of Hansard-
-fat contracts from the Department of Munitions and Supply for being the agent of Mr. Macmillan in the province of Quebec. The third had no political background whatever.

Supply-Legislation-The Senate
I wish to relieve from your mind the idea that I thought of imputing any bad motive to Macmillan's agent, when I spoke of that. What I had in mind was that he had enough in having a big contract, and that there was no reason to appoint him to the senate to give him that reward, or anything. I did not use "award"; I used "reward". And I would have said, "For reward, a senatorship", if I had not been interrupted like that by the Minister of National Defence. I appreciate the compliment when he said that I knew the rules quite well. I do not pretend to be that good; that is an exaggeration.
To conclude I want to tell you, Mr. Chairman, that I abide by the rules; I abide by your decision, but at the same time I want to defend the rights of members of parliament. This is not a pink tearoom; this is the place where we have the right to discuss the business of the nation. I contend that if there is an item in the estimates which permits a discussion of everything that pertains to the senate, it is item 112 of the main estimates. I tell you that we live in a false atmosphere. I wonder if it is like that around the table at Barclay's bank. I have never been there and I shall never be there. We must talk like men, men who have a tremendous responsibility. This responsibility rests not only on the minister; the members of parliament have a responsibility as great if not greater, because they are the immediate representatives of the people. During the campaign through the west in 1941 the Prime Minister regretted that he had no direct contact with the people. We have.
When I speak here as a member of parliament there are things that I have the right to say, and I deny to any minister the right to interrupt me on a point of order and saying that I should not rise in my place. I have not the time to write my speeches because I have a voluminous correspondence to attend to. I speak extemporaneously; I do not speak for the students and I do not expect that my speeches will be translated two thousand years hence. I speak for to-day; I speak on the problems of to-day and I do that with tremendous emphasis.
I am not going to be bullied by any one of my colleagues with calls to the Chair when I have the right to speak, when I have the right to express the views of my electors as well as my own. I protest solemnly and strongly and energetically and with the greatest vehemence against the tactics of the Minister of National Defence who would like to see members of parliament act as mummies in the House of Commons. The ideal member for him would be the member who would keep his arms folded and his big back on the chair and never rise in the house, who would always nod yes. He wants a yes-man. I am not a yes-man; I am a no-man to him; I am a no-man to any suggestion that he will make because if he makes a good one it will be wrongly presented and wrongly done. That is why I affirm my independence as a member of parliament. I cannot tolerate any more interruptions from any minister, and especially from the Minister of National Defence.


James Layton Ralston: Mr. Chairman, as you might anticipate, I do not propose following the hon. member in the byways and highways which he has pursued in connection with this particular matter. I am only rising here as I did this afternoon because of my duty, happening to be at the moment leader of the house. I feel it to be my responsibility to endeavour to preserve not only the dignity of this house but the dignity of parliament which consists of the House of Commons and the Senate. The suggestion by any hon. member that he has the right to speak, that he will not be hobbled or that he will not be stopped by me or by anybody else leaves me quite cold because there is no suggestion of that kind at all. All that an hon. member needs to do in order to preserve his right to speak is to keep within the rules of the house.


Jean-François Pouliot: I always do.


James Layton Ralston: It was for the purpose of calling attention to that that I regretfully had to rise this afternoon at a time when we should have been engaged in something other than discussing matters of the kind the hon. member discussed this afternoon. He had a right to make his speech on the particular item, but at the same time I felt that the dignity of the other branch of this parliament should be preserved as we would expect the dignity of this house to be preserved if the tables were reversed and if any such remarks were made regarding the House of Commons as were made regarding the other chamber by the hon. member this afternoon.
The hon. member has gone pretty far in connection with this matter. He could not resist the opportunity to take a fling at the individual who happens at the moment to be leading the house. I shall leave that for some other time, but there are some things which the hon. member has not done and which I submit he should do. Notwithstanding the fact that he does not take suggestions from me, I venture to suggest to you, Mr. Chair-
Supply-Legislation-The Senate

man, that the well known grace of his race ought to prompt him to make a full and unreserved withdrawal of any imputations which he may have passed upon the other chamber or its members.
The first statement which was mentioned and which is recorded on the blue sheets of
Hansard the hon. member says that he did not say; that Hansard wrongly reported him. All I can say is that it is in Hansard at page 3328. Tins is the statement:
They have completely lost any sense of shame in the Senate, and with the exception of two or three senators for whom I have the deepest admiration, I concur in what was said by the leader of the C.C.F. party as to the abolition of that body.
If the hon. member had withdrawn it; if he had simply left it and stated that he had not said it, that would have been one thing. But the hon. member did not do that. What he said was that he proposed to substitute for the words "sense of shame" the word "usefulness." He thought that that would cure the difficulty, that that would make words which were exceedingly offensive, if not wholly inoffensive, at least less offensive. The definition "offensive" as given by the Oxford dictionary is this:
Offensive

1. Pertaining or tending to attack; aggressive; adapted or used for purposes of attack; characterized by attacking. Opposite to defensive. Hurtful, injurious. Giving, or of a nature to give offence; displeasing; annoying; insulting. Causing unpleasant sensations; now, nauseous, repulsive. Of the nature of a transgression. The offensive: the position or attitude of attack; aggressive action.
I suggest that you take the revision which the hon. member has made of his speech, the substitution, of "usefulness" for "sense of shame," and add to that the other statements which he has made with regard to the senate and which appear in the extracts which you have just read-such as this statement:
If they were willing to work; if they had enough initiative, they could help us; they could play the part that was allotted to them under our constitution.
Add that to the statement that they have completely lost their usefulness, and then add this statement:
The senate is a nonentity in our parliament at the present time, just on account of the unwillingness of the senators to do something while they are sitting there.
I ask you if the change from the words "sense of shame" to the word "usefulness" helps a great deal in making the language used less offensive to the other chamber. I ask hon. members to put themselves in the position, and I ask the hon. member to put himself in the position of a member of the House of Commons reading a statement of

that kind being made by a member of the other chamber with regard to this House of Commons, the tatement that this house had completely lost its usefulness, that they were not willing to work, that because of their unwillingness to do something they are a nonentity in parliament, that if they had enough initiative they could help. I ask him; I ask you, Mr. Chairman, and I ask the members of this committee if they would not consider that that was offensive. Those are the words which the hon. member has still left on the record, and added to them is the statement which he made about one member of the other chamber, with regard to which he makes a rather curious explanation. He says:
Another is a gentleman who had fat contracts from the Department of Munitions and Supply for being the agent of Mr. Macmillan in the province of Quebec.
Perhaps my mind is too suspicious; perhaps I am too touchy, but if I were reading that statement I would have thought that the gentleman there was being accused of having used his position as an agent of Mr. Macmillan, who was under the Department of Munitions and Supply first as timber controller and afterwards as director of Wartime merchant shipping for the purpose of obtaining fat contracts from the Department of Munitions and Supply.


Jean-François Pouliot: I rise to a question of privilege, Mr. Chairman. I do not want my statement to be distorted by anyone.


James Layton Ralston: I am stating, Mr. Chairman, that that is the construction any reasonable man would put upon that particular passage, and that is the thing which, it seems to me, is about as offensive as anything which could possibly be said by a member of this house with regard to a member of the other house. There is a sort of special pleading in connection with the matter, because the hon. member does make some suggestion that he thought the member of the other house having gotten contracts, would not need any more contracts in view of the fact that he had attained a position in the senate. That explanation may satisfy the hon. member for Temiscouata, but I do not think it will satisfy the public who see that particular statement on the record with regard to a member of the senate.


Jean-François Pouliot: Once again, Mr. Chairman, the minister has not understood what I have said.


James Layton Ralston: I am speaking of the exact words as they are recorded, and which the hon. member admits were recorded, with regard to that hon. gentleman.

Supply-Legislation-The Senate


Jean-François Pouliot: The minister pays no attention to my explanation.


James Layton Ralston: I submit that having done, as I think he has, a very grave injustice to the members of the other house and to a particular member of that house in that passage, I would have thought he would have unreservedly withdrawn any imputations of the kind.


Jean-François Pouliot: Which I have done.


James Layton Ralston: If the hon. member says he has done it-


Jean-François Pouliot: Surely.


James Layton Ralston: Then so far as I am concerned the incident is closed, but I understood my hon. friend to do almost everything but that.


Jean-François Pouliot: That is most unfair and I protest, Mr. Chairman, on a question of privilege.


James Layton Ralston: Do I take it, Mr. Chairman, that the hon. member does withdraw unqualifiedly any imputations against the senate or any members thereof?


Jean-François Pouliot: I do not want my statements to be distorted by anyone.


James Layton Ralston: I rise to a point of order.


Jean-François Pouliot: I am on my feet, Mr. Chairman. How is it that I have to sit down when
he rises?


James Layton Ralston: I am rising to a point of order. I submit, Mr. Chairman, that this is a matter which is not debatable. The matter is before the Chair, and all I am saying is that if the hon. gentleman does withdraw unqualifiedly any imputations which he has made against the senate and its members, then so far as I am concerned the incident is closed. The remarks he has made about me do not disturb me in the least. But I submit that it is not a matter that we should debate.


Jean-François Pouliot: I ask you, Mr. Chairman, if I have to withdraw twice?


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: No doubt the committee realizes that it is a delicate question to settle. Several arguments have been brought up by the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Ralston). An hon. member of this house has a right before the orders of the day are called or in committee to see that he is properly reported in Hansard. That is the privilege accorded to every member of parliament. The hon. member for Temiscouata has stated this evening that he did not use the word "shame" but that he used the word "useless." I feel
that the committee must accept the statement of the hon. member for Temiscouata on that point.
This afternoon I gave a ruling on the use of the word "nonentity" as applied to the senate, and the hon. member for Temiscouata withdrew that statement unequivocally as will be found in the record of Hansard for this afternoon.
The only question that is left as to which I am not absolutely satisfied in my own mind, although I listened very attentively to the hon. member for Temiscouata, is the allusion that he made this afternoon to a gentleman who was appointed to the senate, stating that he had received fat contracts. I listened very attentively to the hon. member's explanation this evening but that matter is still left on the border-line to some extent. Although I want to believe that he intended no reflection whatever on the character of the senate and of the senator that he had in mind-


Jean-François Pouliot: Not at all.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: -from the repeated
statements made by the hon. member for Temiscouata that he has just made at this sitting, I believe I am voicing the sentiments of the majority of the committee when I say that his explanation should be accepted.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Shall I report progress?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No.


James Layton Ralston: I am only submitting this, that the statements to which I have' referred are the hon. member's statements with regard to the senate having lost any usefulness and also its unwillingness to work, which simply means that members of the senate are there not only neglecting but unwilling to do their duty.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: On that point the hon. member for Temiscouata has said this evening that he did not want to use the expression that the senate is useless.
Some 'hon. MEMBERS: Withdraw the whole statement.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I agree that the hon. member should withdraw it now.


Jean-François Pouliot: I will bow to your decision, Mr. Chairman.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Do I understand there is an unqualified withdrawal of all the aspersions of any kind whatsoever that have been made against the other house by the hon. member for Temiscouata?

Supply-Legislation-The Senate


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I listened very attentively to what the hon. member for Temis-couata said a few moments ago, and took notes of his statements, and I believe that that is the case.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: May we have the assurance that that is the case? '


Jean-François Pouliot: How many times do I have to repeat it to deaf ministers?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Ask him the question, Mr. Chairman.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I will ask the question. I will ask the hon. member for Temiscouata, who, I know, wants to be fair to himself and to the committee, if he makes an unqualified withdrawal?


Jean-François Pouliot: I cannot do more than I have done, Mr. Chairman. I have done it gradually, one by one. I am not going to bend before any minister. I respect you, Mr. Chairman, and I will abide by the Chair's decision, whatever you decide. I cannot say more than that. I do not abide by anything that is said by the Minister of National Defence.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I know the hon. member realizes that the committee wants an unqualified withdrawal.


Jean-François Pouliot: If the majority of the committee wants it, I will give it.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is not unqualified.


Jean-François Pouliot: If I am told to withdraw statements distorted by the Minister of National Defence, I cannot do it. I do not want to do an injustice to anyone. I observe the golden rule, and if I have offended against the rules of the house in anything I have said I have already given a satisfactory explanation which has been accepted by the Chair. After it has been accepted by the Chair, I hear roars from powerful breasts telling me to do something else.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I listened attentively to the hon. member for Temiscouata and thought it was an unqualified withdrawal, and I have rendered my decisions accordingly, but apparently the members of the committee do not feel that it was such. I will therefore ask the hon. member for Temiscouata if he makes an unqualified withdrawal.


Jean-François Pouliot: I always abide by your rulings, Mr. Chairman, and I do so now even for those who do not have ears to hear.
fMr. Ian A. Mackenzie.]


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is not an unqualified withdrawal.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Does the hon. member withdraw unqualifiedly?


Jean-François Pouliot: I abide by your decision.


An hon. MEMBER:: No!


An hon. MEMBER:: That is not a withdrawal.


Jean-François Pouliot: Well, what is this? Is it a torture room? It is most ridiculous when ministers want to humiliate a member of parliament. I will not kneel down. I bend before the Chair, but I kneel down before no one else.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I must ask the hon. member for an unqualified answer, yes or no. Does he withdraw?


Jean-François Pouliot: I abide by your decision.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I must ask for an unqualified withdrawal, yes or no; otherwise I shall have to report to the Speaker. I shall have to name the hon. member, and that is one of the duties which I am loath to discharge, and which I want to use only as a last resort. I must ask the hon. member for an unqualified withdrawal.


Jean-François Pouliot: Well, all right, sir.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: These words cannot qualify. I must have an unqualified withdrawal.


Jean-François Pouliot: All right, sir.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Shall I report progress?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Does the hon. member withdraw unqualifiedly? Yes or no.


Jean-François Pouliot: Yes, Yes, Yes.
Progress reported.



WAR APPROPRIATION BILL


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed consideration in com-mitte of a resolution to grant to His Majesty certain sums of money for the carrying out of measures consequent upon the existence of a state of war-Mr. Usley

Mr. Bradette in the chair.

Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Shall item 1 carry?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canadian shipping board -administration, $98 300
Revolving chartering fund, $500,000.
James Alexander Marshall: Will the minister
explain the reason for the increase in the vote?

War Appropriation-Trade and Commerce


James Angus MacKinnon: The amount asked for, for 1944-45, is $598,300. There is a revolving fund of $500,000. The details are: salaries, $30,000; cost of living bonus and other pay-list items, $2,700; travelling $36,000; telegrams and telephones, $15,000; printing and stationery, $2,000; miscellaneous, $2,000; allowance Washington representative, $7,000; office accommodation, Vancouver, $3,600. This increase is on account of the fact that during the forthcoming year it will be necessary for the shipping board to appoint a representative in India and a senior shipping clerk for the Great Lakes, St. Lawrence division. The revolving fund revenue far exceeds the total expenditure for the operation of this entire board.


James Alexander Marshall: I thought something like that had taken place in connection with the revolving fund because in 1942-43 the allotment was $350,000, of which only $15,000 was expended. Could the minister give the figures as to the actual amount


James Angus MacKinnon: I cannot hear the hon. member.


James Alexander Marshall: Well, I am talking as loud as I can. I wonder if the minister would give the amount actually earned during this last year 1943-44, and the expenditures. Certainly, if there is a profit, I do not see why you need $500,000 of a revolving fund. It is said that the earnings far exceed the expenditures. If that is so, what is the object of having a revolving fund of $500,000?


James Angus MacKinnon: The total expenditure for 1943-44 was $128,529.77, and the total revenue for the same period was $351,666.69, or, in the year's operation, a net surplus of $223,136.92. The revolving fund of $500,000 is an amount that is used for the chartering of vessels, and any earnings go to the consolidated revenue fund. Possibly we could get along with a smaller amount, but it is not considered advisable to ask for less.


James Alexander Marshall: Does the surplus go into the consolidated revenue fund, or is it kept in the revolving fund?


James Angus MacKinnon: It goes back to the consolidated revenue fund.


Robert Fair: Who are the members of the shipping board and what are their duties.


James Angus MacKinnon: The members of the board are:	Mr. A. L. W.
MacCallum, chairman and director of shipping; Mr. F. E. Bawden, vice-chairman, who deals with the director of trade routes and steamship subsidies, and who is an official of the Depart-ment'of Trade and Commerce; Captain J. W.
Kerr, supervisor of nautical services, from the transport department; Captain Eric S. Brand, director of the trade division, naval service, Department of National Defence; Mr. T. C. Lockwood, transport controller, Department of Transport; and Mr. J. S. Macdonald, Counsel of the Department of External Affairs. This position of Mr. Macdonald's is temporarily vacant following his appointment as high commissioner to Newfoundland. Mr. A. W. Merriam represents the Department of National Revenue, and the secretary is Mr. B. A. Macdonald, Canadian government trade commissioner on loan to the forces at the present time.


Robert Fair: What are their duties?


James Angus MacKinnon: These men speak for each of their departments.


James Alexander Marshall: I am not quite clear
on the question of where this surplus goes, because in the previous year we are told that the earnings were carried forward to a special account. Would the minister explain what is meant there? If the money is all shown in the consolidated revenue fund, why does it state in the auditor general's report that those earnings are transferred into a special account?


James Angus MacKinnon: The earnings from the ship voyages carry on from month to month, and the moneys are carried into this special fund and turned back possibly at the end of the year.


Ernest Edward Perley: Does the harbour board
play any part in the working of the board?


James Angus MacKinnon: No.


Ernest Edward Perley: Are any of the members of the Montreal harbour board members of this board?


James Angus MacKinnon: No


Ernest Edward Perley: Does the harbour board
play any part in the export shipments permits, and so on?


James Angus MacKinnon: No; simply a matter of close cooperation.


Ernest Edward Perley: With the harbour board?


James Angus MacKinnon: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Shipping priorities committee - administration, $47,380.
James Alexander Marshall: Why the decrease?


Ernest Edward Perley: Why the increase?^


James Angus MacKinnon: It
is a decrease.
3352	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Trade and Commerce


Ernest Edward Perley: The auditor general's report is confusing.


James Angus MacKinnon: The general decrease in estimated expenditure is rendered possible by the faot that this branch is now believed to have achieved its maximum expansion with expenses being consequently more fixed and more accurately predictable.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Gift of wheat to Greece, $8,500,000.
Ernest Edward Perley: There is an increase of
$2,500,000 in this amount, and a very great increase over the previous year as shown in the auditor general's report. Would the minister explain that, and also is there any flour going to Greece other than wheat under -the mutual aid, or does it all go in the form of wheat?


James Angus MacKinnon: This all goes in the form of wheat. The additional amount required is on account of the increase in -the price of wheat, together with the fact that improved shipping conditions have made it possible for -the relief commission to obtain more consistent sailings and in that way send larger ampunts.


Ernest Edward Perley: How do you arrive at the price of this wheat? What does it cost the wheat board?


James Angus MacKinnon: The wheat is delivered from that which the government has taken over and the price is $1.25 a bushel.


Ernest Edward Perley: Is there any difference in
the price of this wheat so far as the wheat board is concerned and the price of the wheat shipped to other countries under mutual aid?


James Angus MacKinnon: Not under mutual aid, no.


Ernest Edward Perley: The same price prevails?


James Angus MacKinnon: Yes.


Ernest Edward Perley: Based on Fort William?


James Angus MacKinnon: Yes.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I should like to take just a moment to speak in wholehearted support of this item and the policy that makes it possible. I wish to take a. moment to read an extract or two from the April, 1944, issue of "International Affairs", a copy of which came to my desk a few days ago. Included in this publication is a report of an address given at Chatham House on November 16, 1943, by George Exintaris, who was at one time governor general of Macedonia. He escaped from Greece to Great Britain in July, 
1943. In his address Mr. Exintaris dealt with the steady deterioration of the situation in Greece following the German occupation in April, 1941. There are two or three sentences that I should like to quote, and they are as follows:
Between October 1941 and April 1942 the spectacle of Athens and Piraeus was -truly tragic. One used to see in the streets people suddenly dropping dead from exhaustion. At night the lamentations of the old and the cries of starving women and children, cries of unappeased hunger, haunted the passer-by and transformed, as it were, most of the streets of Athens into one whole wailing wall of Jerusalem. Mortality assumed terrifying proportions. In Athens and Piraeus alone in the five months from October 1941 to February 1942 the number of deaths above the normal was thirty-five -thousand.
Mr. Exintaris goes on to point out how the situation kept getting worse. Then we come to this sentence which gave me a real sense of pride when I came across it:
Between the end of 1942 and June 1943- the situation improved slightly. This was due to:
(a) the regular monthly dispatch from Canada of eighteen thousand tons (fifteen thousand tons of wheat, three thousand tons of beans and small quantities of powdered milk).
The speaker went on to give two other reasons for the slight improvement at that time, but I call attention to the fact that the first reason for the improvement to which he was referring was this regular monthly dispatch from Canada consisting mainly of our gift of wheat to these people. However, Mr. Exintaris went on to point out that the situation has even since then deteriorated and that the need is exceedingly great. He ends this part of his address by saying:
If those in whose hands these decisions are entrusted could visit Greece -for one day only and see for themselves the extent of the tragedy, they would, I -feel sure, -take steps to alleviate the sufferings of a -people whose only fault, if fault it -be, is the execution of their duty and the defence of their homes.
I think all of us in this committee should be justly proud that Canada is able to alleviate even to this slight extent the terrible suffering of the people of Greece. Let us hope that we may learn out of this experience the value of trying to help meet the needs of humanity' the world over. These are days when we are seeing many things that are terrifying, the suffering that is going on due to this conflict in which we are engaged. I take just this moment because it seems to me that it is encouraging to realize that at the same time we are learning some other things as the desirability of endeavouring to help our brother men when they are in dire need.
I rise to support wholeheartedly the policy of the Canadian people-the government will

War Appropriation-Trade and Commerce
not mind it if I put it in that way in this instance-in making this gift to the needy and heroic people of Greece.


James Angus MacKinnon: Following the hon. member's remarks I might just mention that as of May 9 of this year Canada has sent a total of 11,172,308 bushels.
I am occasionally asked as to the certainty of this wheat, and all of this wheat, getting to the people for whom it is intended. Just recently I have had an opportunity of discussing this matter with people who are positively in touch with this, and I shall take just a moment or two to give the committee some information given to me by those people. As a direct result of wheat shipped by Canada to Greece three million Greeks are being provided with a basic bread ration of approximately two hundred grams or, roughly, half a pound a day. Greek officials have estimated that many hundreds of thousands of Greek lives have been saved by Canada's contribution. The wheat shipments have given the Greek nation the certainty of being able to secure bread freely and fairly. Though not large, the bread ration has been a vital factor in sustaining Greece during her long period of suffering.
Before the war Greece used to import one-third of her foodstuffs. She was broken and impoverished by her heroic seven months' struggle against Italy and Germany. Then came the terrible famine of 1941, to which my hon. friend has just referred, when people died in the streets of starvation, and at one stage the death rate in Athens was at least ten times normal. It was against this background of suffering that Canada's wheat shipments began in the spring of 1942, under the terms of an international agreement. We are positively assured by the best authority that all our wheat has reached the Greeek people for whom it is intended. The Swedish Red Cross and the Internation Red Cross, with the Swedish government acting in a supervisory capacity, are in charge of the Greek distribution in Greece.


Mr. MacNICOL:: I can endorse what the minister has just said. Quite a number of Greeks live in the riding of Davenport, and they are extremely fine citizens. In several cases members of a family are now holding high positions in the allied service in Europe and North Africa. Some of the young men whom I know quite well not only are participating in the fighting but rendering wonderful service as interpreters. I heartily endorse the idea of sending wheat to Greece; in fact I should like to see it sent in larger quantities. Think of it for a moment; just a few million Greeks stood up like lions against Italy, who sent many hundreds of thousands of soldiers in
an attempt to conquer that little nation, but until the Germans sent division after division to support the Italians the Greeks more than held their own. The least this great country of Canada can do is to alleviate the suffering of these people as much as possible. This is one way in which we can help our own people by buying wheat from them and relieving the surplus in Canada, and at the same time help feed these starving people. I say all honour to every effort, no matter by whom made, to relieve the sufferings of the gallant Greeks.


Mr. QUELCH:: I am heartily in favour of this gift to Greece, and I am also heartily in favour of the provisions of TJNRRA, whose provisions I hope will be sufficiently wide in scope to take care of any situation that may arise in future. But why should this wheat not be sent to Greece under the provisions of UNRRA? Was the arrangement made before UNRRA was set up, and in that case will this wheat be made available to Greece in future under UNRRA?


James Angus MacKinnon: The hon. member is correct in thinking that this item is dealt with separately because it started before UNRRA was organized.


Victor Quelch: And in future?


James Angus MacKinnon: We propose to carry it on in this way. It is just as good for the Greek people as in any other way.


Victor Quelch: It seems a little odd to have an organization such as UNRRA to take care of the stricken areas, and then find gifts made outside of UNRRA. Where does UNRRA begin and where does it end?


James Angus MacKinnon: It has been pointed out to me that UNRRA does not enter into the picture in supplying goods to a country that has been overrun, until that country is liberated.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The wheat was sent
before UNRRA was thought of.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I hope the minister is assured that the wheat we send gets to the Greek people and not to the nazis, though I suppose that is a chance we must take. I heartily endorse the idea of sending this wheat to Greece. After all, the Greeks and the people of the British empire have always stood for freedom. We can never forget the great part played by Greece in fighting a delaying action at a most important time in the history of the war, when they held the fort against great odds. They knew what would happen to them; they knew the difficulties they were
3354	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Trade and Commerce
up against; they went into it with their eyes open, because they believed in freedom. The least we can do is to give them all the wheat we possibly can. I have known many Greeks, and they are fine people. They did not expect much help when they went into this war, and I think we should do as much for them as we possibly can.


Mr. ROSS (Souris):: I was not altogether clear on the answer given by the minister to the hon. member for Qu'Appelle. Am I right in assuming that any wheat shipped prior to September 28 would be charged at the initial price to the wheat board, which is ninety cents, and that since that time the price has been $1.25? It is the initial price at all times; it does not vary as the price of wheat shipped to other countries varies according to market conditions at the time of shipment?


James Angus MacKinnon: The price now is $1.25 a bushel f.o.b. Fort William. Before that price was established; before the government took over that wheat, the price at which it was accounted for to the producers of Canada was the sale price of other wheat at the time. I cannot give that price, because it has not been disclosed.


James Arthur Ross: That is, prior to September 28 it was sold at the prevailing market price?


James Angus MacKinnon: Yes.


James Arthur Ross: And since that time all shipments have been on the initial basis of $1.25?


James Angus MacKinnon: That is correct.


Ernest Edward Perley: Do I understand, then, that the wheat shipped before the price was increased to $1.25 would go on the basis of the price of wheat shipped to the United States, for instance?


James Angus MacKinnon: The wheat shipped to the United Kingdom.


Ernest Edward Perley: Shipped from the United States or from Canada?
Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West)>: From Canada.


Douglas King Hazen: Does this amount of $8,500,000 include the cost of transportation as well as the cost of the wheat?


James Angus MacKinnon: This amount represents our contribution only. The transportation is arranged by the International Red Cross, I believe.


Ernest Edward Perley: I have the minister's report dated January 28, 1944, and1 the day the price 
of wheat was increased wheat at Saint John for shipment overseas was $1.40, so that the minister must be wrong; it could not be based on ninety cents at Fort William.


James Angus MacKinnon: I do not think I made the statement that it was based on ninety cents at Fort William. I said that it was based on $1.25 at Fort William at the present time, and that previously the price was based on what we realized for our wheat shipped to the United Kingdom.


Ernest Edward Perley: Then it was based on the price in this report, which is $1.40, at the time you increased the price at Fort William?
_ Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West): What is the date of that report?


Ernest Edward Perley: January 28, 1944.


James Angus MacKinnon: I am told that the difference between $1.25 and $1.40, the price my hon. friend mentioned, is represented by the cost of forwarding to the Atlantic port.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National research council, special war activities, $3,945,507.
Gordon Graydon: Is any part of this vote for agriculture, or does that come under the civil estimates? The minister will recall there is an amount this year for agricultural research, and I was wondering whether it is in this vote, or in the civil estimates.


James Angus MacKinnon: None of this is for agriculture. That comes under civil estimates.
A year ago when we were discussing these war appropriation items, and particularly that having to do with the national research council, I asked permission of the committee to place on Hansard a report prepared by the national research council respecting the activities in research during the past year, and to set out the work for the future. Many members, and many people throughout Canada have written to us thanking us for submitting this information to them. With the permission of the committee I should like again to place on Hansard a report of the work of the national research council.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Covering this vote?


James Angus MacKinnon: Yes, covering this vote. It stands to reason that it would have to be explained to laymen. I have it in proper form, one which I believe would be of great interest not only to hon. members but to the country generally. With the permission of the committee I should like to place it on Hansard.

War Appropriation-Trade and Commerce


Douglas Gooderham Ross: This is a pretty big and important vote, and the minister should give a statement. In my opinion it would be better to make a statement, so that hon. members would have an opportunity of listening to it as he goes along, and of discussing it after we have heard it. I should imagine it would not take long to read it.


James Angus MacKinnon: I am not trying to run, away from reading it, or from submitting it. But I would suggest that if I have permission to put it on Hansard now, there would be an opportunity of asking questions when the estimates for the national research council are before the committee again, when we are discussing civil estimates.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Does it refer to the same body?


James Angus MacKinnon: Yes.


The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Golding) :: Does the committee give unanimous consent?	,


Ernest Edward Perley: There is a considerable increase from last year, as it appears in the auditor general's report. The number of employees in 1943, as shown at page Y-29, was 732. Is there any increase in the present year?


James Angus MacKinnon: There is a substantial increase in the number of employees. I just wish to point out that I do not intend in any way to attempt to shut off questions respecting the national research council, or to curtail any comment any members may wish to make this evening.


William Henry Golding: Order; does the committee agree to having this statement placed upon Hansard?


Gordon Graydon: I do not think the minister should be interrupted, when he is just part way through a statement. He was going to say something, and I should like to hear what 'he has to say.


James Angus MacKinnon: I was just suggesting that if I had permission to place this on Hansard, I had no thought in shutting off discussion at this time.


James Arthur Ross: I think the minister should be permitted to place the statement upon Hansard. But this year the vote is almost double what it was last year. If he would make a short statement, pointing out what the changes are, it would be sufficient. I do not think we should ask him to read the entire statement, but he could make a general statement.


James Angus MacKinnon: On the understanding that we shall take it up under the civil estimates.


Ernest Edward Perley: The minister has said there is an increase in the number of employees. What is the number?


James Angus MacKinnon: At the present time there are 1,240 employees connected with the national research council.


Ernest Edward Perley: That is an increase of 500.


James Angus MacKinnon: I might mention, in answer to the suggestion of the hon. member for Souris, that there is a considerable increase in the amount allotted for war appropriation over the amount for 1943-44. This is due, mainly, to a number of new projects, some of which are these: Experimental explosives establishment, $450,000; refrigeration unit for low-temperature work, $250,000; cooling system for single cylinder room in engine laboratory, S100,500, and explosives research, $90,000.


Joseph William Noseworthy: What is the nature of the low-temperature work?


James Angus MacKinnon: I confess, frankly, that I cannot say. That is one of the reasons I wish to place the report upon Hansard.


Robert Fair: Are most of these votes for war purposes?


James Angus MacKinnon: This is all for war purposes.


James Alexander Marshall: Is Habbakuk still on the secret list? I note at page Y-31 of the auditor general's report it says this:
Allotment: national research council, special secret problem, "Habbakuk", $53,370.80.
Is it still on the secret list?


James Angus MacKinnon: I am told that the work is completed, but it is still on the secret list.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Has any consideration been given to Lieutenant-General McNaughton's return to work in connection with the national research council?


James Angus MacKinnon: Mr. Chairman, I have nothing to say on that point. I have no idea what is in General McNaughton's mind in that connection.


Gordon Graydon: We are not asking what is in General McNaughton's mind; the hon. member is asking what is in your mind?


James Alexander Marshall: The government's mind.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I would like to ask the minister-
3356	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Trade and Commerce


James Angus MacKinnon: I am not in a position to make any statement.


Gordon Graydon: There is something in your mind, but you are not going to divulge it.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Is this increase altogether taken up by the three projects mentioned by the minister? Then, how far-reaching is the connection between private enterprise of one kind and another, and the national research council, due to the war? There are civil estimates for the council; I suppose it is doing a certain amount of war work.


James Angus MacKinnon: It is all war work. I am told that practically the total work being done by the national research council at the present time is war work.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: All war work?


James Angus MacKinnon: Yes.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Well then, why are there civil estimates? Why is it not all included in these estimates?


James Angus MacKinnon: These now before the committee are in addition to the regular peace-time organization. At the present time the peace-time organization is fully engaged in war work.
If I have permission to place this upon Hansard-*


Gordon Graydon: Well, Mr. Chairman, is that the report the minister has mentioned?


James Angus MacKinnon: Yes.


Gordon Graydon: Then may I point out a matter which I think the minister has overlooked. I have no desire to have him read a lengthy report at this stage of proceedings, particularly in view of the fact that he has undertaken that all that is contained in the report may be discussed fully when the civil estimates are before the committee. I hope that that undertaking and understanding will be properly implemented because it is important that it should be done. There is one more point involved so far as procedure is concerned. I do not think we as a committee should drop into the careless habit of putting on Hansard reports such as this. I am afraid other ministers will decide to put reports on Hansard which might not adorn Hansard as much as this one would. I think it should be either circulated in the form of mimeographed copies or printed in Votes and Proceedings. I think we must present an obstacle to filling up Hansard with things other than the spoken words of members of parliament. I realize that there are times when a mass of figures can be placed on Hansard much easier than reading them, but 
I think this instance would be creating a precedent which I am not prepared to permit without protest at this time. I know the minister has not this in mind and I ask him either to have this report mimeographed or printed in Votes and Proceedings.


James Angus MacKinnon: Do I understand that the hon. member would prefer not to have it placed on Hansardt


Gordon Graydon: Yes, I would.


James Angus MacKinnon: I
think that would be quite agreeable, but if it is printed in Votes and Proceedings, it does not get the same circulation.


Gordon Graydon: I know the minister is
anxious for circulation, but we should be careful about what precedents are established. I know that at times the government has special reasons for wanting circulation, and I often suspect that when certain questions are passed as orders for returns the same circulation is not desired as when questions are answered quite readily. If a similar report were placed on Hansard last year it escaped my notice because I am sure I would have protested against it.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Members of parliament have enough to read already. We have plenty to read. What is the use of sitting in the chamber if we are to have to read this as well?


Ernest Edward Perley: I think many hon. members can read faster than the minister.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I am serious about this. The point is that we have plenty to read. It is much easier to get it if we hear it read and I imagine it would save a certain amount of discussion. Tam quite willing to have it go in Votes and Proceedings.


William Henry Golding: I am just wondering whether we should place it in Votes and Proceedings without the Speaker being in the chair.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: With unanimous consent we can do anything.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I agree in general with the position taken by the leader of the opposition about placing material like this on Hansard. Frequently, when this is done the things a member is reported as saying subsequently to the material being placed on Hansard look rather out of line. He speaks without having heard the material read which appears in Hansard just ahead of his own remarks. As I say, I agree in general with the leader of the opposition, but I do feel that this material is of such importance that

War Appropriation-Trade and Commerce
it should get the widest circulation possible. I think we all agree that the staff of the research council have done a particularly worth-while job during the course of this war. In my view they have done that job without getting sufficient pay and under the most difficult of circumstances. If this statement recites some of the achievements of the staff of the research council, I for one would like to see it get the widest circulation possible. Just one instance of recent note comes to my mind in connection with the sad occasion of the sinking of the Athabasca. A news dispatch in connection with this sinking referred to a life-jacket and what it had meant to many men, and then it went on to state that the initial research on this jacket had been done by our national research council. There are undoubtedly many cases of this kind. I ask the leader of the opposition, without abrogating his general position, to agree to having this statement placed on Hansard.


William Henry Golding: Is it the unanimous wish of the committee that we place it on Hansard?


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Before we give unanimous consent may I ask the minister how long it would have taken him to read it?


James Angus MacKinnon: Half an hour.


Gordon Graydon: I never want to be a hold-out in the committee and I do not think many members have found me taking that position. If it is the wish of the committee that this should go on Hansard, all I can do is to protest. I am not going to hold it up, but I should like it to be distinctly understood that this is not a precedent. If there is to be unanimous consent except by the leader of the opposition, then I should not want to withhold that consent.


Mr. ADAMSON:: There is one question I should like to ask the minister. Prior to the war we were spending approximately one-tenth per capita as much as the United States on research. At the biginning of the war we found ourselves in an inferior position when compared with that country. I wish to compliment the minister upon what has been done during the war. Our scientists deserve a tribute. But we are probably still a long way behind with regard to research, and when the minister brings down his estimates I should like him to give some idea of the per capita expenditures in Canada on research as compared with the expenditures, if they are obtainable, in the other united nations.


James Angus MacKinnon: I
shall be very glad to do that. The people of Canada are not educated to or fully aware
of the value of research. They are not ready to spend the money that other countries have spent to great advantage. The hon. member has referred to the United States where expenditures on research run into the millions, but even they are behind continental countries.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I understand the policy is that the national research council cannot undertake an investigation or a piece of pure research unless they are asked specifically to do so by an industry or someone in the country. I suggest that that is a false policy and that the national research council should be encouraged to undertake pure and applied research.
I think that is very important.


James Angus MacKinnon: 1 am told that the council does that now to a limited extent.


Stanley Howard Knowles: That is the trouble; it is too limited.


James Angus MacKinnon: We fully appreciate that. In 1938-39 the peacetime vote was $987,569.59, and last year the total vote was $5,442,681.59.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: In connection with having this put on Hansard, I said I would give my consent. Just to make it all right there are one or two things I should like to say. The minister has just stated that the peacetime vote was $987,000, but he did not mention the fact that there were large recoveries and that the national research council was practically self-supporting at that time. Another interesting thing is that we do not do nearly enough research work in the council.
Speaking the other day before the Engineering Institute of Canada, Dean Mackenzie gave some interesting figures. He said that research expenditures in the mid-thirties, by countries were estimated per capita as follows: Russia, $1.80 to $3; United States, $2.40; Britain, 70 cents; Canada, 22 to 29 cents. I do not think that the people of this country have appreciated as they should have done the work that was done by General McNaughton when he was in charge of the national research council. He made a real research council out of the place and had pilot plants there all ready to go to work when the war came on, and he would have had a much bigger research establishment there if it had not been for the opposition to pilot plants by the government. I think General McNaughton deserves a great deal of credit for what he did. Then there is Doctor Boyle. There is not a more outstanding scientist in Canada than Doctor Boyle, at the national research council. Very few people hear about him, but he is known to the whole scientific world, and when the
3358	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Trade and Commerce
history of our scientific achievements is written the names of Doctor Boyle and General McNaughton will be known all over the world.


Paul Joseph James Martin: And Doctor Tory.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: That is right, and Doctor Tory and many others. But I mentioned those two because I know very well what they have done. Dean Mackenzie is also doing a marvellous job right at the present time, as well as many other able men at the research council. Another thing I would point out is that they are not paid enough. It is a shame that they are not paid more. They are working there for the love of science and love of their country. If they left they could get far more money outside.
Another question I would ask the minister is what we are doing in connection with chemurgy? The United States before the war was spending on the chemical industry in the United States between two and three per cent of its sales value and spending one-seventh of one per cent on chemurgy while we spent practically nothing. We would like information on all these things. Just how far-reaching is the work of the national research council? Is their work confined to what is done at the national research council here, or does their work extend to other places outside? We know what has been done in the medical field by Doctor Collip. We ought to know more about what is going on at the national research council.


Joseph William Noseworthy: The minister made the statement a moment ago that the people of Canada were unwilling to spend money on research as other countries did.


James Angus MacKinnon: I did not say unwilling, but that they had not been educated sufficiently along that line to realize the value of research.


Joseph William Noseworthy: I wonder if the minister is correct and if he did not think the government of Canada is unwilling rather than the people.


James Angus MacKinnon: Oh, no.


Joseph William Noseworthy: Just on what premises does the minister base his assumption that the people of Canada are not willing to see more money spent on research?


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I would like to follow that up? The minister thinks it is the people of Canada who do not appreciate research. I have always thought it was the government that did not do enough. We would have been far better off to-day if in

years gone by the government had given more leadership in research and shown what could be accomplished by it. The government should have taken a leaf out of the books of other countries which have accomplished wonders in research. There was a great lack of research for the benefit of Canadian industry which was due to the lack of initiative by the government. I do not blame the council at all for that because they did the very best they could. They had to fight all the time to get what money they wanted to carry on with their work, and with what they did get they did a marvellous job. But the government did not give them the leadership that they should have given.


James Angus MacKinnon: I should now like to put on Hansard the statement to which I referred. It is as follows:
Work of the National Research Council
Prior to the outbreak of war the national research council was conducting scientific research and investigation in its own laboratories. It was also fostering research throughout Canada tby means of its associate committees, by grants in aid of research, and by .providing scholarships to aid in the training of young scientists. Each associate committee superintended a limited field of investigation and its membership consisted of technical and administrative men from universities, departments of government and industry, whose experience and skill were pooled in directing .the research. Through these committees the council was in [DOT]touch with laboratory personnel and facilities throughout Canada, and it acquired fairly detailed knowledge of their potentialities.
The value of this knowledge and of the council's widespread contacts became apparent as soon as war broke out. Problems which required the work of scientists were brought to the attention of the council and were either undertaken in the council's laboratories or placed with the individual or laboratory best equipped for the work. Some of the associate committees were already working in fields which merely had to be broadened in order to meet the new needs. For example, the committee on medical research, which had originally been organized to coordinate medical research for civilian needs in Canada, became the nucleus for the study of medical problems presented by the new and changed conditions of warfare on land and sea, and in the air. Similarly the Canadian committee on food preservation turned its attention from strictly peace-time food technology to studies of the means of maintaining the quality of the foodstuffs delivered to our armed forces and to the people of Great Britain. Both committees have produced sound work which will continue to be of value after hostilities cease.
Supervisors of research under certain committees whose work was of a peace-time importance only were directed to use their grants in the pursuit of specific war problems which their special training enables them to undertake. In addition, individual scientists who had been receiving grants in aid of research directly from the council also undertook war research

War Appropriation-
-Trade and Commerce
problems. All this resulted in the utilization of facilities from one end of Canada to the other in a systematic attempt to cover the tasks at hand with economy of staff and equipment.
The council's own original staff also provided a nucleus around which an increased organization could grow and function. The demands for research increased steadily until this staff increased fourfold, and the council was operating nine stations, in addition to its large central laboratory, either independently or in cooperation with the services.
The foregoing indicates briefly the means -by which the peace-time organization of associate committees and grants in aid of research were modified in order to meet the conditions of hurry and stress, and 'how the council staff provided a nucleus for the rapid development necessary. That the scholarships of the council have also proved their worth during this period is indicated by the fact that a large proportion of the young research men engaged in these [DOT]problems, either in civilian laboratories or in the services, have at one time held national research council scholarships, for post graduate training in science.
So far we have been dealing with internal coordination and cooperation. But facilities for the exchange of scientific information between Great Britain and the United States on the one hand, and Canada on the other, became very necessary. A new liaison organization was therefore developed to function as a channel for the exchange of confidential and secret information. The council maintains a chief scientific liaison officer in London, who supervises and expedites the exchanges between Great Britain and Canada; and exchanges between the United States and Canada are carried on through the Ottawa office. The liaison offices obtain and transmit scientific information not only for staff of the council but for other departments and for the armed forces.
Turning to the research work proper it might be well at the outset to indicate that while the importance of physical sciences in warfare is obvious, the country which would depend on these alone would be severely handicapped. The importance of such apparently insignificant items as insects and fungi may be overlooked by the uninitiated, but those responsible for maintaining the health of the troops and for the supply and storage of equipment in the field are acutely aware of their importance. For this reason work in many fields of applied biology has had to be speeded up.
The war-time history of the associated committee on medical research, which has already been mentioned, illustrates this fact. This committee has had to organize three specialist groups, one on aviation medical research under Dr. Duncan Graham, one on naval medical research under Surgeon Captain C. H. Best, and one on medical research for the army under Lt. Col. W. Hurst Brown.
The committee on aviation medical research has been responsible for an outstanding programme of work especially in the fields of high altitude flying, protective clothing for flyers, oxygen equipment, and personnel selection. Most of the flying clothing and auxiliary equipment developed by this committee is now in use in active combat. The committee has also been able to assist in the solution of medical and physiological problems that arose from new conditions encountered in service flying.
The committee on naval medical research works in close conjunction with the medical unit of the Royal Canadian Navy. Dietary surveys made by these groups resulted in recommendations for the correction of various dietary deficiencies. Attention has also been given to the quality of the rations and water carried on lifeboats. This committee has also concerned itself with the question of night vision, and tests which it developed for the evaluation of night vision, colour vision and visual acuity have been adopted by the navy. Special lighting techniques have been designed for use on bridge controls, bridge instruments and chart tables in order to minimize interference with night vision. In connection with the operation of anti-submarine detection devices, experimental work on the fatigue of personnel has yielded information which has been applied in determining the optimum length of watch periods. Tests designed to indicate personnel suitable for this branch of the service have been adopted by the Royal Canadian Navy, the Royal Navy and the United States navy. Investigations on such problems as "immersion foot", underwater blast injury, and eye protection for bridge and look-out personnel have produced satisfactory practical results.
At present further problems under investigation are: obtaining fresh water from sea water in life boats, protecting naval personnel from noise, combating fatigue in radio detector and wireless telegraph operators, following tracer bullets fired "into the sun", improving ventilation and lighting aboard ships, and healing and treatment of burns and shock.
The operation of large numbers of small vessels makes sea sickness a problem of special importance. In this connection groups working in Montreal and Toronto have devised techniques for sorting out those who are susceptible to motion sickness, and therapeutic measures have been devised to prevent or alleviate the condition in a large proportion of the cases tested.
Army medical research investigations are in progress on night vision, effort syndrome, evacuation of wounded from battlefields, the prevention of respiratory and other infections in barracks, the use of drugs in relation to motion sickness and gastric physiology, air ambulance transportation, fumigants, and water purification. In connection with nutrition, surveys have been made and a study of sprouted grains and legumes as sources of vitamins for troops is also under way.
In the council's division of applied biology, investigations on food problems not related to the war effort were dropped at the beginning of the war, and a pre-war staff of nine had to be increased to twenty-nine in order to cope with food problems referred to the council by various government departments.
The general programme of this division in connection with food has had to do largely with such products as jrork, bacon and eggs and in addition a large refrigeration project has been carried on. At the beginning of the war there was a shortage of refrigerated space and it became necessary to devise, if possible, a method of using the uninsulated holds of cargo vessels for the transportation of perishable products.
. Excellent progress has been made in the development of comparatively inexpensive emergency refrigeration equipment for this purpose which is easily and quickly installed, and which has
3360	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Trade and Commerce
proven satisfactory in actual use. Already several vessels sailing from Canadian and United States ports have been so equipped.
Investigations on bacon have resulted in the adoption of a standard cure by Canadian packers, with the result that Canadian bacon is now held in high favour on the British market. It appears that the British prejudice against Canadian bacon, which was founded on the definitely bad curing practices used during the last war, has been overcome. This should help in holding the British market for Canadian bacon after the war. Standard canning procedures for pork and ham have also been adopted by the manufacturers as a result of investigations conducted with the object of developing a processing procedure which would improve both the keeping quality and the nutritive value of the product. Procedures for the dehydration of pork and other meats have been studied and experiments are under way to determine the storage life of the product. Testing panels have agreed that the product is as edible as fresh material. Modifications of the design of drier and of the drying procedure are being tested.
Dried egg powder has now become a prominent feature of British diet, and specifications for the control of quality in this commodity have been prepared for the Department of Agriculture which controls production in Canada. The division had already carried on a great deal of work in determining the best methods of processing and storage of dried eggs on an industrial basis. Studies designed to determine means of extending the storage life of shell eggs indicate that oil dipped eggs shipped in sealed lined bags keep reasonably well.
Japan's entry into the war cut off the source of agaragar which had been used as a jelling substance in the canning industry. The search for a promising substitute resulted in the choice of Irish moss, a form of seaweed. A laboratory method has been developed for processing this substance, and the properties of the product are being studied. Work is being continued to develop a commercial method of making a good jelling substance from this seaweed.
It was anticipated early that shortages of edible oils might develop, and investigations were put in train to find possible substitutes. As a natural outgrowth of the work on bacon, attempts have been made to improve the stability and other properties of lard as a suitable alternative for vegetable oil shortenings. Linseed oil is the only vegetable oil that Canada produces in quantity. The national research council is giving financial support to the Ontario research foundation in an experiment on the hydrogenation of linseed oil to produce an edible product. In addition, oils from various crops which might be grown in Canada and also oils from certain weed seeds are being studied with a view to their conversion to edible oil shortenings. The development of these crops is undertaken by the Department of Agriculture. The responsibility of investigating the processing of the oils is being undertaken by the national research council in its oil seeds laboratory at the university of Saskatchewan and in its laboratories at Ottawa.
Surveys have been made on the vitamin intake of Canadian troops at various depots, and the components of emergency rations used by the Canadian army have been examined to assess their caloric value and keeping quality. These projects were initiated at the request of the
IMr. 3. A. MacKinnon.]
Department of National Defence. Advice has been given to the Department of Munitions and Supply on the actual value of foods offered for public sale.
As a result of metal shortages, a great deal of work has had to be done on the development of moisture resistant packages for dehydrated foods for export or for use by the armed forces. Packaging tests have also been made with compressed dried egg powder and dried milk.
The production of butylene glycol from wheat by fermentation is under active study. This chemical is an important raw material in the manufacture of butadiene, a precursor of synthetic rubber. Attention has been given to the possible use of butylene glycol as a substitute for war materials in short supply, as well as with a view to developing new industrial uses. A pilot plant has been constructed for the determination of data necessary for the design of a full-scale industrial plant. Members of the staff of the associate committee on grain research have assisted greatly in this work.
Promising native and exotic species of plants have been analyzed for rubber content and investigations carried on to determine the methods of extraction of natural rubber from these plants. Simple methods have been developed for removing rubber from Russian dandelion roots and from the leaves and seed pods of tailkweed. The rubber obtained is passed to the division of chemistry which does the testing and compounding. This work is carried on with the active cooperation of the university of Toronto and the Dominion Department of Agriculture.
The division of chemistry has been engaged in a large amount of testing and development work. In the field of metals, work has been done on low alloy high-strength steels and aluminum alloys. The sea-water resistance of various coatings has been investigated and a study of means of preventing corrosion of different materials by chemicals has been made. Rubber products used by almost every branch of the armed forces have been investigated for production purposes or with the object of making improvements. These include surgeons' gloves, ground sheets, respirator components, crash and steel helmets and parts for artillery and tanks. In addition, rubber conservation problems and synthetic rubber processes have been under examination.
The wide use of textiles in the armed forces has led to a large amount of work in this field. Special problems investigated included methods of reducing the weathering of canvas duck, the thermal transmission of blankets, the colour analysis of certain textile products, and the characteristics of respirator pads. The development of fabrics impermeable to gas has been undertaken and suitable standards of quality for materials of this nature drawn up. The water-proofing, mildew-proofing, and flameproofing of cotton, textiles have also been studied. Tests have been made on many materials including felt, silk gauze, silk thread, braid, vulcanizing cloth, box cloth and various types of uniform materials. Work on the development of a suitable man-carrying parachute with nylon canopy, shroud lines, tapes and sewing thread, has been successful and this type of parachute has been adopted. Viscose rayon is now being successfully used as a substitute for silk in the manufacture of flare parachutes.

War Appropriation-
-Trade and Commerce
Advice has been given as to the suitability of a variety of leathers for different military purposes, and numerous dressing and waterproofing compounds for leathers have been examined for quality. Used military boots have been examined in order to determine means of overcoming certain weaknesses that developed with wear. Tensile strength tests and wear resistance tests have been made on composition sole materials. Soles composed of cotton fabric and suitable plasties have been made up and are undergoing field trials. The success of such soles would help to alleviate any short supply of sole leather. In addition, these soles have an advantage over leather in that rights and lefts are the same since both outer surfaces are identical.
Transparent sheet resins for military purposes have been tested for quality, and vulcanized fibre identification discs and other similar objects have been examined, general consideration being given to the substitution of plasties for metals in war materials.
A large variety of finishes is required for use on military vehicles and other equipment. Many of these materials are comparatively new to Canadian industry, and the research council has cooperated with government departments and manufacturers in facilitating the supply of these highly specialized coatings. Gas-detector paints, luminous paints, heat reflecting paints for armoured vehicles, finishes for rifle barrels, camouflage paints, fluorescent paints and fire retardent paints have been developed.
The commercial production of fuse powder charcoal was developed and carried on for some time by the council but the manufacture has now been turned over to a commercial concern. However, research on the fundamental problems involved in the operation is being continued. Indicators for war gases and chemicals for other war purposes have been synthesized and studied.
From a small cooperative effort between the national research council and the Canadian army, activities in chemical warfare have grown rapidly to the point where a highly coordinated project has been developed as an establishment of the Department of National Defence. The director general of this organization is a civilian scientist on the staff of the council. About one-half of the active personnel are civilian scientists, the remainder being members of the armed forces. This establishment is an outstanding example of active coordination of military and civilian agencies.
Several sections of the division of physics and electrical engineering are concerned almost exclusively with research and development for the Royal Canadian Navy. A shock and vibration machine based on British admiralty design, but modified to permit the use of Canadian materials, has been installed to test the resistance to shock of instruments and equipment for merchant and navy ships. The results of tests on this machine are used in devising instrument specifications. Other work of this general nature includes the construction and use of a rocking machine to simulate the movements of a ship in order to test instruments. Studies of gear for magnetic-mine sweeping have also been made. The acoustics section has been engaged in the design of special secret navy gear for offensive and defensive operations.
Apparatus for work in ballistics has been developed on an increasing scale, and measurement equipment for ammunition and gun proof
has been developed and is now in use. Problems connected with directing gunfire and the armouring properties of various materials have been investigated. Work is also under wray on the improvement of anti-aircraft projectiles. In this work the existence of a committee on ballistics and fife control has been of great help.
In the optics section, research and development in optical instruments and in photography and spectrochemical analysis has been accompanied by the construction of many and varied optical components for military instruments. A joint committee on photographic research sponsored by the R.C.A.F. and the council handles all photographic problems for the former organization. A great deal of research in this field has been completed.
Electrical measurements work has been largely testing for certain council laboratories and other government departments. There has been a marked increase in the testing of new insulation materials as a result of the rubber shortage and the manufacture of new materials in Canada. The mechanical testing of war materials in increasing volume has taken considerable time in the strength of materials section. In addition to routine tests numerous investigations on testing with radium and X-rays were carried out. A great deal of radiographic testing of steel, bronze and aluminum is also done outside by council-trained radiographers. The amount of X-ray diffraction work is gradually increasing.
In metrology, tests of such instruments as binoculars, sextants and thermometers run into the hundreds. The output of specially designed work on fire-control apparatus and teachertraining equipment for the army and navy has increased, and pilot models constructed in the council's shops have been sent for service trials.
In the gauge-measurement laboratory the number of gauges measured per month has been approximately 4,200, which appears to be the point at which production has finally settled. Improvements have been made on measuring technique and new equipment added, some of which was proposed, designed and constructed in the council's laboratories and shops.
The development of secret radio equipment continues apace. The sections on research and radio engineering design work hand-in-hand with the army, air force and naval sections. Equipment for radio location has been completed and successfully used against the enemy.
In the division of mechanical engineering many service projects are carried on. These include matters relating to marine engines and their lubrication and the design and test of ships of various types. Model testing basin results are useful to the naval architect and shipbuilder, and also to the designers of aircraft hulls and floats.
There is very close cooperation between the R.C.A.F. and these laboratories. Much of the work in progress in the new laboratories on the Montreal road has been suggested by air force authorities in Canada, the United Kingdom and the United States. The council has horizontal and vertical wind tunnels for the testing of the characteristics of aircraft. The results obtained are important in the development of superior fighting machines and in working out all possible safeguards for their crews.
The gasoline and oil laboratory has complete equipment for chemical and physical testing of fuels and lubricants, and this has been in constant use on war problems. An interesting
3362	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Secretary oj State
experiment in this laboratory established the fact that thermally cracked gasoline could be safely used in training aircraft, thus increasing the aviation gasoline supply. Flight tests were made, specifications for such fuel were drawn up, and refiners were provided with information as to the limits within which cracking could be done. Aircraft engines are tested in an engine laboratory where studies on cold starting of engines and of the cooling of armoured fighting vehicles are also in progress.
The council possesses the only building in Canada equipped for testing aircraft structures such as wings and tail surfaces. This equipment must be used in the development of new aircraft and in the study of modifications to existing structures. Considerable work in design and construction of moulded plywood aircraft has been undertaken in order to reduce the drain on duralumin and steel and to draw upon Canada's wood working facilities. For these purposes the structures laboratory serves as a pilot plant where interested firms may follow the development of new designs.
The mechanical engineering division works in close cooperation with the test and development establishment of the R.C.A.F., which operates what is really a full-scale experimental flying station. Through this cooperation laboratory results and flying operations are well coordinated.
On the physical and engineering side of its work, the council is closely associated with the Canadian engineering standards association, which is the national approvals body for engineering practice. The main committee of the C.E.S.A. is the associate committee on engineering standards of the council. The C.E.S.A. has close liaison with similar bodies in the United Kingdom and the United States, and this makes for close coordination of standardization work.
The foregoing outline contains merely a few highlights of the work, more details of which will be found in the annual report of the national research council. Since the national research council is the official research establishment of the navy, army and air force, many of the projects undertaken by the council are secret and cannot be made public at present. It is hoped that the general picture of the place of the council in the war effort can be visualized from the facts given.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Civil service commission-
Supply of personnel for war services, $576,500.
Stanley Howard Knowles: Will the minister indicate the classes of employees who are included in this vote?


Hon. N. A. McLARTY (Secretary of State):: They are employees of departments who have been taken on in connection with war work.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Temporarily?


Norman Alexander McLarty: All temporarily. I will give a break-down of the figures: Salaries, $399,000; cost of living bonus, $63,000; print-
ing and stationery, $20,000; examinations, $15,000; railway fares, $15,000; travelling expenses, $41,000; miscellaneous, $22,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Progress reported.
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Tuesday, May 30, 1944