1944-06-06

Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, at half-past three o'clock this morning the government received by radio the following communique from General Eisenhower's headquarters:
Under the command of General Eisenhower, allied naval forces, supported by strong air forces, began landing of allied, armies this morning on the northern coast of France.
Ten minutes later from General Eisenhower's headquarters the following bulletin was received:
It is announced that General Bernard Montgomery is in command of the army group carrying out the assault. This army group includes British, Canadian and American forces.
At eight o'clock this morning I made the following radio broadcast:
"At half-past three o'clock this morning the government received official word that the invasion of western Europe had begun. Word was also received that Canadian troops were among the allied forces who landed this morning on the northern coast of France. Canada will be proud to learn that our troops are being supported by units of the Royal Canadian Navy and the Royal Canadian Air Force. The great landing in western Europe is the opening up of what we hope and believe will be the decisive phase of the war against Germany. The fighting is certain to be heavy, bitter and costly. We must not expect early results. We should be prepared for local reverses as well as successes. No one can say how long this phase of the war may last, but we have every reason for confidence in the final outcome.
" I cannot better express to the people of Canada the government's feelings at this moment than by giving to you the words of General Crerar, the Canadian army commander, as conveyed to the Canadian assault forces on the eve of their embarkation:
" ' I have,' said General Crerar, ' complete confidence in our ability to meet the tests which lie ahead. We are excellently trained and equipped. The quality of both the senior and junior leadership is of the highest. As Canadians, we inherit military characteristics which were feared by the enemy in the last great war. Thev will be still more feared before this war terminates.'
"I should like to add this word: Let the hearts of all in Canada to-day be filled with
(Mr. Pouliot.l
silent prayer for the success of our own and allied forces and for the early liberation of the peoples of Europe."
The house will be interested in the order of the day which was given to the troops by General Eisenhower. It is as follows:
" Soldiers, sailors and airmen of the allied expeditionary force: You are about to embark upon the great crusade toward which we have striven these many months. The eyes of the world are upon you. The hopes and prayers of liberty-loving peoples everywhere march with you.
" You will bring about the destruction of the German war machine, the elimination of nazi tyranny over the oppressed peoples of Europe and security for ourselves in a free world.
"Your task will not be an easy one. Your enemy is well trained, well equipped and battle hardened. He will fight savagely.
" But this is the year 1944. Much has happened since the Nazi triumphs of 1940-41.
"The united nations have inflicted upon the Germans great defeat in open battle man to man. Our air offensive has seriously reduced their strength in the air and their capacity to wage war on the ground.
"Our home fronts have given us an overwhelming superiority in weapons and munitions of war and placed at our disposal great reserves of trained fighting men.
"The tide has turned.
"The free men of the world are marching together to victory. I have full confidence in your courage, devotion to duty, and skill in battle.
"We will accept nothing less than full victory.
"Good luck, and let us all beseech the blessing of Almighty God upon this great and noble undertaking."
Hon. members will realize that at this stage it is very difficult indeed to give the house much information of an official and authentic character. It would be a mistake, I think, for me to attempt to give anything in the nature of details relating to the events that have happened within the past twenty-four hours. Fortunately, however, the Prime Minister of Great Britain addressed the House of Commons of the United Kingdom this morning and in the course of his remarks was able to give to the house information which will be of equal interest to all of us. I therefore propose now to give to the house a part of the statement which Mr. Churchill made this morning. I should say that the Prime Minis-

Invasion of Western En: oye
ter preceded his remarks by making a reference" to the significance of the fall of Rome. He dwelt at some length upon what that great event signified in relation to the other events which are taking place at this moment. He then continued as follows:
"I have also to announce to the house that during the night and early hours of this morning, the first of a series of landings in force upon the European continent has taken place.
"In this case, the liberating assault fell upon the coast of France.
"An immense armada of upwards of 4,000 ships, together with several thousand smaller craft, crossed the channel. Mass airborne landings have been successfully effected behind the enemy's lines.
"Landings on the beaches are proceeding at various points at the present time. The fire of shore batteries has been largely quelled. Obstacles which were encountered in the sea have not proved as difficult as was apprehended.
"The Anglo-American allies are sustained by about eleven thousand first line aircraft, which can be drawn upon as may be needed for the purposes of battle.
"I cannot, of course, commit myself to any particular details, as reports are coming in in rapid succession. So far the commanders who are engaged report that everything is proceeding according to plan. And what a plan!
"This vast plan is undoubtedly the most complicated and difficult that has ever occurred. It involves the tides, wind, waves and visibility both from the air and sea standpoints, and the combined employment of land, air and sea forces in the highest degree of intimacy.
"There are already hopes that actual tactical surprise has been attained, and we hope to furnish the enemy with a succession of surprises during the course of the fighting.
"The battle which has now begun will grow constantly in scale and in intensity for many weeks to come, and I shall not attempt to speculate on its course, but this I may say-that complete unity prevails.
"Throughout the allied armies there is a brotherhood in arms between us and our friends in other states. There is complete confidence in the supreme commander, General Eisenhower, and in his lieutenants, and also in the commander of the expeditionary force, General Montgomery.
"The ardour and spirit of the troops, as I saw for myself when they were embarking in the last few days, were splendid to witness. Nothing in the way of equipment, science or forethought has been neglected."
As we await the news of battle there are certain things w'hich I think it would be well for members of this house as well as for the people of Canada to keep in mind. The fact that an allied landing on the continent has taken place is of itself a great feat. It means that after many months of the most careful and detailed planning the enemy has been pushed back at one part of the rim of his fortress. Even so, the task of having landed is but a prelude to the more urgent task of maintaining this first foothold, and of maintaining it so strongly that the enemy cannot dislodge the allied forces. We must expect that initial counter attacks on a small scale will be followed by massed, all-out counter attacks by the mobile and reserve forces of the enemy. These counter attacks may extend over a long period, and it is important that we should not magnify successes which may be achieved.
On a previous occasion, referring to the invasion of Europe, I said:
"This greatest of all tasks must be approached with the utmost foresight,. . . .it will require the most complete preparation. It is the duty of all concerned to see that sound judgment is not impaired by impatience, that nothing that can possibly be foreseen is left to chance. Invasion when it comes must be fortified with as full knowledge, as it is possible to obtain in advance, of every factor that will count for life or death in the balances that to-day are deciding the fate of the world."
The allied offensive launched to-day, as Mr. Churchill has said, is the most complete coordination and integration of effort among all the allied forces.
We must also remember that the enemy has been established for more than four years in the territory which he must now defend. The defensive preparations he has made must be expected to be all that his experience and ingenuity can devise. The enemy strength, while not precisely known, is very formidable.
We must also keep constantly in mind that the supply problem is one of the greatest magnitude because of the fact that most of the implements of war, munitions, food and supplies have to be carried to the front line by sea.
For obvious reasons, it would not be advisable to give information about the strength and disposition of the allied forces or concerning particular formations and commanders taking part in the operations. These will be made known from time to time in official announcements.
Invasion of Western Eurpoe

Conjecture in these anxious days will not do any good, and it may, in fact, give help and comfort to the enemy. This is the more important because of the particular care which has been given to the timing and planning of different operations. It is not to be supposed that the offensive launched to-day will not be followed by other offensives in other parts of Europe both from the sea and over land.
The people of Canada will expect, and it will be the duty of the government to provide, so far as possible, a correct and sober representation of events as they occur. The future, however, must unfold itself.
I am happy to be able to inform the house that official word has already come to the effect that our men have successfully achieved their first objective and are making good progress.


Mr. GORDON GRAYDON (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I should like on this very compelling occasion to add a word or two to those which have been said by the Prime Minister.
There are no divisions of opinion and no cleavages in thought in this house as we rivet our attention upon the progress of the long-anticipated offensive in Europe. An indescribable sense of oneness pervades this parliament and this nation to-day. The vital and critical character of the present military operations in which our troops are engaged erases all else from the thoughts of the Canadian people. Our armed forces must know that we at home are prepared to reinforce their efforts to the furthest limit. This nation must see to it that whatever is needed to support our fighting forces in men, materials and money is given without stint, without hesitation and without restriction. Nothing less than the best will be good enough for those who give so much for us.
May God be very close to our fighting men and their loved ones at home as this mighty battle for freedom, liberty and democracy proceeds apace.


Mr. J. H. BLACKMORE (Lethbridge):: Mr. Speaker, I assume that all members of the house feel much as I do at the present time, that this is a moment for prayer. All must feel deeply grateful for the protection which the all-Father has given our people; the protection which has enabled us to stand against the apparently invincible forces which confronted us in 1940, and to persevere even until to-day, when it is our privilege to return the attack.
We must feel gratitude also for the miraculous way in which allies have been brought

to our side whose timely assistance rendered it possible for us to survive and whose help, still afforded us, will enable us to prevail against our enemies.
I feel that we all are deeply filled with supplication for the protection of our boys, as far as that may be, and for their success in the arduous task which they now are essaying; and we also, I know, are possessed with the desire to implore the Almighty that we at home may be able to perform our tasks in a way which will make us worthy of the noble boys who represent us overseas.


Mr. MAURICE LALONDE (Labelle) (Translation):: It is fitting that a French voice should stress the epoch-making fact that the hour of liberation has now come for France. I am sure of voicing the feelings of all Canadians of French descent in saying that we have been deeply moved by such news. We have not forgotten France, Mr. Speaker, we have not forgotten her, for hundreds and thousands of young French Canadians are perhaps, at this very moment, driving the German invader from the historic shores of old France.
With the permission of this honourable assembly, may I say that the occasion calls for the singing of the national anthem of France.
(The members rose and sang "La Marseillaise" and "God Save the King")


Mr. S. H. KNOWLES (Winnipeg North Centre):: We of this group desire to associate ourselves with the very appropriate words spoken this morning on the radio by the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) and by him and the others who have spoken in this chamber on this solemn occasion. We associate ourselves not only with what has been said but with the spirit that rightly pervades the house at this historic moment.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I should like to take advantage of the feelings which are uppermost in the minds of hon. members at the present moment to make a very earnest plea to the members of the house to join together to seek to expedite as much as we possibly can the further business of this session. I am perfectly sure that with the mind of the country concentrated upon events which will go far to determine the fate of nations for generations to come, individual members in this house,

Business of the House
and the people of Canada generally, will be impatient of utterances made in the House of Commons at this time which are not very much to the point in the discussion of the business which we are here to transact.
I would be the last to wish to impose any restraint upon the utterances of anyone, but I am confident that the feeling throughout Canada is that to-day we have reached one of the most serious moments in the history of the world, and that it is a part of our obligation to human society to avoid irrelevancies as much as possible and to concentrate as completely as we can upon the business before us.
I must say that from looking over the proceedings of the house in the past six weeks it seems to me that we shall not be able, unless we move at a more rapid pace than has been followed thus far, to complete in the course of this year the business that is already indicated on the order paper. I know hon. members do not wish to have the proceedings unduly prolonged. The only way in which the house can control the situation is by each member feeling an individual obligation to do his utmost to further the common will.


Gordon Graydon: What the Prime Minister has said will, I believe, find a very responsive echo in the house generally at this time. I am quite sure it will also be appreciated outside the house as well.	'
I would like to suggest to the Prime Minister one thing-a suggestion that was made before. Perhaps I can make that suggestion now in a way that will be of considerable help to the government and to parliament and will tend to expedite the business of the house. As the Prime Minister knows, we have not been sitting on Wednesdays during this session. I quite appreciate the position in which the government find themselves, and I have no desire to make it more difficult for them. Indeed, as the weeks have passed, I haye had a greater appreciation than ever before of the burdens on the government, but I am going to suggest to the Prime Minister that we sit on Wednesday afternoons and evenings. I suggest that we have none of the preliminary proceedings on Wednesdays which would necessitate the presence here of the ministry, the Prime Minister or the war committee of the cabinet. I suggest that on Tuesday night we adjourn to go on at three o'clock on Wednesday exactly where we left off the night before, without any of the intermediate proceedings, and that we continue until eleven o'clock, with the supper adjournment on Wednesday.
Perhaps that would meet a situation which the Prime Minister finds exceedingly difficult.
Both he and the government want to have some time in which to handle the heavy burdens in the war cabinet, and I offer that suggestion in what I hope is a constructive way, in order that we may be able to utilize not only the cooperation which I am sure the house will give, but also every minute of the time, because everyone in this house wants to have the business disposed of as quickly as possible. If the Prime Minister, myself and others give the lead we shall probably find a responsive following all over the House of Commons.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I shall be glad to consider carefully what my hon. friend has said, but I would say that the events of the last twenty-four hours have placed an additional burden on the ministry, much greater than any we have borne heretofore. Whether members of the government are in the house or not, the ministry has to bear the responsibility for what takes place. I would wish to think over very carefully what my hon. friend has suggested. To-morrow it -would not be possible for the house to meet, in the light of what has happened to-day. Whether it will be possible in subsequent weeks, I shall have to consider very carefully with my colleagues. I suggest to my hon. friend, however, that to-morrow and possibly other Wednesdays until we feel we can sit on Wednesdays as well as other days without incurring serious risks, the day might in part be occupied by the whips of the different parties meeting together to see whether they could not come to some arrangement among themselves as to the amount of time it will be necessary to give to different measures, and reach an understanding with regard to methods of expediting the work of the session. That, I understand, is one of the methods employed in the British house. A certain length of time is assigned to particular debates; it is left to the different parties to decide which of their members will speak, and the discussion is limited to the time agreed upon. Something of that sort, I think, will be necessary if we are to get 'through in any reasonable time.



RAILWAY COMMITTEE


Mr. VINCENT DUPUIS (Chambly-Rou-ville) moved:: That the recommendation contained in the second report of the standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines, presented on May 25, 1944, respecting capital stock charge on Bill No. 89 (letter R2 of the senate), an act to incorporate Fundy Air Lines, ibe concurred in.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Aid to Greece


[Stage Direction]
Mrs. CORA T. CASSELMAN (Edmonton East) moved the first reading of bill No. 118 (from the senate) to change the name of The General Missionary Society of the German Baptist Churches of North America to The North American Baptist General Missionary Society.
Gordon Graydon: May we have an explanation of the bill?


Mrs. CASSELMAN:: This society was first incorporated under the statutes of the state of New York. The word "German" in its title became objectionable to its members and in 1942 they asked that it be dropped in the main body in the state of New York. That was done. They are now asking that the body incorporated in Canada in 1922 under that name also have the word "German" removed from its title.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



AID TO GREECE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
William Lyon Mackenzie King: I received last night the following telegram from the new Prime Minister of Greece in reference to shipments of food which have gone from Canada to Greece. The house will be much interested in its contents. The telegram is as follows:
Cairo, June 5, 1944. The Right Hon. W. L. Mackenzie King,
Prime Minister of Canada,
Ottawa.
In assuming the premiership of the Royal Hellenic government of national union I wish to express to you and to the government and people of Canada the profound gratitude of the Greek nation for the vital help which they are receiving from your generous country in their appalling plight. Having lived in Greece until a few weeks ago and having shared in the unprecedented burden of famine and oppression which has not succeeded in crushing the spirit of my countrymen I feel entitled to convey to you this recognition of Canada's assistance and also to appeal for the greater possible development of these shipments to Greece without which the Greek nation cruelly decimated as it is would be threatened with total extinction. Please let all Canadians know that the food grown in the rich and free lands of their fine country is helping to save the life of a nation bn whose soil liberty was first born and was constantly defended throughout long centuries, a nation which is now tortured and mutilated

more than ever because it has refused to deny its ancient creed in the freedom and dignity of man.
Papandreou,
Prime Minister of Greece.
To that communication I sent the following reply this morning:
Ottau'a, June 6, 1944. His Excellency George Papandreou,
Prime Minister of Greece,
Cairo, Egypt.
I am deeply grateful to you for your moving message expressing the gratitude of the Greek nation for the shipments of food from Canada. It has been a source of pride and thankfulness to the government and people of Canada that during the past two years they have been able to provide some relief in this manner .to the people of Greece. It is fitting that the ancient seat of human freedom should be sustained during the time of its darkest tribulation by the young and free Canadian people. I trust that the aid already brought to Greece in its struggle for survival will increase in volume until liberation has been achieved. May the day of liberation be near.
W. L. Mackenzie King



PRISONERS OF WAR


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gordon Graydon: I have a question to direct to the Prime Minister which arises out of a statement made by the Acting Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. St. Laurent) in a statement on May 19, 1944. Has the Prime Minister any information to convey to the house with respect to the investigations being made by the protecting power into the shooting of forty-seven British and Canadian prisoners of war in Germany


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have no information to give to the house at the moment. I am sure that the protecting power, Switzerland, is doing all possible to obtain the information for us, but my hon. friend will recognize it can only be secured with the cooperation of Germany. Up to the present we have not received any further word, but the Swiss government is fully aware of our anxiety and desire to get information at the earliest possible moment.



INDIAN AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. W. NOSEWORTHY (York South):: Has the Minister of Mines and Resources been requested to meet Indian delegates in con-

Indian Affairs
vention here or to provide room for their accommodation; if so, what provision has been -made?


Hon. T. A. CRERAR (Minister of Mines and Resources):: The hon. member was good enough to send me an intimation before three o'clock that he proposed to ask this question; and since the matter to which it relates has been the subject of reports in the newspapers and I believe was also mentioned on the radio last evening, perhaps I should answer his question a little more fully than by a mere "yes" or "no".
On May 19 I received a letter from one who purported to be the leader of the Indians of Canada. His name is Jules Sioui, of Loretteville, Quebec. Perhaps I should read the letter. It is as followp:
Dear Sir,
It is my duty to acquaint you with'the final decision of the Indian chiefs of each tribe throughout the country, namely, that without exception they will all be present at the great convention which will be held in Ottawa from the fifth to the tenth of June.
It is understood that you are the general superintendent of Indian affairs but it is known that you have a great number of assistants and agents who are guilty of serious irregularities since many years toward the Indians.
Here is the claim of the Indian people for the next convention which will be held, from the fifth of June; according to them the promises which were made by Her Majesty and others, either by proclamation or treaty, have not been respected either by your department or by the government itself. Therefore, the Indian people want it to be known that it cannot live and is not willing to go on living as it does, in a state which is not tolerable. That is why they will have a meeting with the object of dictating the future of the nation for their offspring.
Being the leader of the Indian people I am requested to hereby notify you that the Indian chiefs ask that a convenient place be prepared for the holding of their meeting -which will last five days at least; and in view of the scarcity of rooms in the hotels, we also ask you to take the necessary steps for the erection of large tents where they will be able to sleep. It is understood that they will pay the installation cost of those tents.
I think it is necessary to draw your attention to the fact that the Indian chiefs are determined to be peaceful and gentle, but they have decided that your department and the government will have to change the situation from A to Z, believe it or not.
Yours truly,
Jules Sioui,
Leader of the Indians of Canada
Post Office, Loretteville, Que. *
My reply to that was as follows:
M. E. J. Bastien,
Indian Agent,
Village Des Hurons, Quebec.
Please advise Jules Sioui that his letter of May 15 has received my personal attention and that the department does not recognize his leadership of any group of Indians in Canada
100-225J
and also that it is my earnest desire that the proposed convention should not be proceeded with as there is no accommodation here. Extreme pressure of business makes it impossible for the authorities to meet a large gathering. Director of Indian Affairs will be ready to receive a small delegation of about six Indians if recommended by their agents.
T. A. Crerar.
In spite of this, Jules Sioui turned up yesterday with a number of Indians. There may be some chiefs in this group of Indians whose presence in Ottawa has received considerable publicity, but I doubt if there are many. Sioui has no standing whatever as leader of the Indians in Canada. Yesterday he sent a request that I meet him and the delegation. I refused to do so, for two reasons. In the first place he is not the leader of the Indians of Canada; in the second place Sioui has been convicted of offences twice in the last six or seven years and has served gaol sentences. Not only that, but at the present time he is before the courts on a charge which, if ultimately proven, will land him in gaol again. I am doing no injustice to the Indians of Canada when I refuse to see him. I have sent word to the Indians present here in Ottawa that if they wish to appoint a small delegation of five or six I shall be glad to see them in my office in the House of Commons at five-thirty this afternoon, but I would not receive Sioui if he came with them as a delegate. I think that answers the question of my hon. friend.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On. the orders of the day:
Hon. HUMPHREY MITCHELL (Minister of Labour):: On Friday last the hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Gillis) asked a question, at page 3463 of Hansard, with respect to the dismissal of three employees of the Florence collieries of Nova Scotia. At that time I indicated that the matter had been looked into by an arbitration board in conformity with the agreement between the mine workers' organization and the employers, and that they had recommended the reinstatement of the men. I am glad to say that through the agency of the officer of the Department of Labour in Fredericton the company has agreed to reinstate the men in question.



MOTOR LAUNCH &quot;OLGA&quot;


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. T. L. CHURCH (Broadview):: I should like to ask the Minister of Transport if an inquiry will be held by the wreck commissioner
Motor Launch "Olga'
COMiMONS
into the wreck of a motor excursion launch called the Olga on Sunday last, at Port Stanley on lake Erie, in which some fifteen passengers were drowned. The act requires an immediate investigation. I should like to know also what life-saving equipment is carried by boats of this kind, what aids to navigation are provided, and what precautions are taken.


Hon. J. E. MICHAUD (Minister of Transport) :: The hon. member for Broadview was kind enough to give me notice of the question he has just asked. In reply I may say that on Sunday, June 4, a motor cruiser named Olga capsized at Port Stanley, Ontario, with the result that the lives of several persons were lost. On Monday morning arrangements were made to hold a preliminary inquiry under section 548 of the Canada Shipping Act, 1934. Captain Fred S. Slocombe, supervising examiner of masters and mates, Toronto, was instructed by telephone to hold an immediate inquiry. He left Toronto yesterday morning, accompanied by the chairman of the board of steamship inspection. It is expected that a complete report of the preliminary inquiry will be available in two or three days.
Replying to the second part of the question, the Canada Shipping Act, 1934, provides for the making of regulations for the safety and protection of people using small craft as well as large boats. Regulations were made and published; the last issue of the publication was 1937, and it was entitled, "Regulations respecting life-saving appliances." One of the regulations provides that the owners of small boats of more than five tons capacity shall protect the lives of those using such boats by providing life buoys, and further that every ship to which the regulations apply shall carry an appropriate number of life jackets, not less than the number of persons which the ship is certified to carry. Further, motor boats in excess of five tons gross tonnage carrying passengers are required to be inspected by a steamship inspector, and to have a certificate of inspection given by him. From time to time notice of these regulations is given to the public; the last notice was published on June 1, 1943, and must have been posted at or near Port Stanley, as directions were given that such notices should be posted in all our ports, calling the attention of motor boat owners to the provisions of the regulations and the shipping act with regard to equipment for the protection of people using such boats.


Thomas Langton Church: Regulations and statutes are all right, but there is no one anywhere to enforce them. These drowning accidents are occurring all over the inland waterways.
[Mr. Ohu*h 1
I would ask the department to try to bring in
some further regulations. We have not even a life-saving station near there on lake Erie.



REPORTED CESSATION OF RATIONING IN THE UNITED STATES-CANADIAN POLICY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Finance):: Yesterday at page 3519 of Hansard the hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Reid) asked this question:
In view of the fact that the United States do not now ration sugar, will the minister make a statement as to the present position in Canada, and indicate whether the restrictions in this country will likewise be lifted?
I have made inquiries, and find that the United States is still rationing sugar on substantially the same basis as it is rationed in Canada. The sugar administrator informs me that he thinks there is no chance of the United States abandoning the rationing of sugar, and certainly no consideration is being given to the lifting of the restrictions here.



WAR APPROPRIATION BILL


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Monday, June 5, consideration in committee of a resolution to grant to His Majesty certain sums of money for the carrying out of measures consequent upon the existence of a state of war-Mr. Usley-Mr. Bradette in the chair.
DEPARTMENT OF MINES AND RESOURCES Immigration branch-
For expenditures in connection with looking after Canadian interests abroad, $475,000.
Thomas Alexander Crerar: Before resuming consideration of this item I should like to correct a statement I made when the Abasand matter was under discussion last week. I described Mr. Max Ball as an oil geologist of very considerable eminence, and went on to say that he was not an engineer. I was incorrect in this latter statement, but was so advised at the time. Mr. Ball is a graduate in engineering, but I think I am correct in saying that the main part of his practice throughout his life has been as an oil geologist. I wish to make this correction because I do not want to do Mr. Ball the slightest injustice or even the appearance of injustice.
I do not think there is anything I can add to what I said yesterday about the item under consideration. Hon. members may have some further questions.

War Appropriation-Mines and Resources


Thomas Langton Church: I should like to ask some questions in connection with this item for expenditures for the purpose of looking after the interests of Canadian nationals abroad. Last night the minister said that this expenditure referred to Canadian nationals in enemy countries who could not get home, and that the money would be spent for clothing, food, and purposes of that kind.
I would remind the minister that we are altogether relying on the International Red Cross, with its headquarters at Geneva, Switzerland. Switzerland is a neutral country, and it is the allies' protecting power. It acts as a sort of caretaker, and as a protecting power for the allies. The International Red Cross is located in that country; it communicates with and inspects camps, and looks after parcels sent to enemy countries. I fail to see why we should depend only upon one protecting power for the carrying out of this work, because in my view it is the first duty of the government to look after these nationals and prisoners of war. The same observations would apply to prisoners of war-although I realize they are not included in this item. There should be some inspection as well as that of the protecting power; we ought not to have to rely solely on Switzerland. For instance, we have Russia as an ally. Some of our nationals are in Japan, and yet we depend upon the protecting power, Switzerland, for the protection of those nationals. One of our allies, Russia, might be able to help in respect of our nationals and prisoners in Japan. The same applies to Germany, and to all other enemy countries.
We should be more active, not only in connection with Canadian nationals in those enemy countries, but also in respect of prisoners of war. In my view the government itself should take some action in these matters, direct or indirect, and not depend entirely on the International Red Cross. Sometimes they cannot do all that should be done-although we realize they have done [DOT]magnificent work. These nationals and prisoners of war should not have to depend entirely upon a protecting power which in turn depends upon the International Red Cross. Surely the government could be a little more active.
The minister gave a long list of neutral countries, but there was one he did not mention, namely, southern Ireland. She is a neutral country, and some of our Canadian pilots are there. They have landed there and cannot get out. I have been told that they are not looked after, through this vote. The first duty of the government is to follow this through as far as possible and not rely
entirely upon one protecting power. Let us get better reports than we are getting from Switzerland. While we have a diplomatic arrangement with that country to look after prisoners of war and nationals in enemy countries, something more active than that is necessary so that we may know what is going on over there. For instance, the other day some of those nationals might have been shot, the way some of the prisoners of war were. In those circumstances we would not have known where we stood.
On this seventy-second day of the session we should have more information in the house with respect to Canadian nationals and prisoners of war than we have at the present time. I should like to have a reply from the minister, because complaints have been made.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Last night I explained the purpose of the vote. This is not drawn upon to look after prisoners of war. The Red Cross have that work exceptionally well organized, from all the information made available to the public. They made several appeals to Canada, with very generous response. This item is to be administered by the director of the immigration branch, through the agency of the protecting power, to assist Canadian nationals, some of whom may be interned and others of whom may not be interned, but who might be in want because of the circumstances in which, through no fault of their own, they find themselves.
The important question whether or not the government is doing enough to care for prisoners of war is one which does not come under this vote. That is a question which might be taken up on some other occasion. As I understand it, under international conventions the German authorities are expected to provide for allied prisoners of war who may be in Germany the same accommodation and food they supply to their own troops. I believe I am correct in that. On the other hand, that is the standard in Canada so far as German prisoners of war are concerned. The chief question raised by the hon. member, however, cannot be covered by this vote.


Mr. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: I should
like to refer to the vote for $475,000, but before doing so may I make a brief observation in connection with the statement made by the minister a moment ago with respect to Mr. Max Ball. I have in my office evidence which would prove conclusively that Max Ball is, as the minister has stated, a graduate of a university of engineering, and that he is a practical and capable engineer. I am glad the minister put his statement on the record, because it will clear up some misunderstanding. It has been
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stated on several occasions, especially by the Minister of Munitions and Supply, that Mr. Max Ball is not an engineer. That may have given a wrong impression throughout the country, although some of us have disputed the suggestion. It is well that the minister has placed his statement on record, because the fact is that Mr. Ball is a practical and capable engineer.
Coming back to this 1475,000, the other day the minister said this money was to be used to pay refugees in Europe.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No.


Charles Edward Johnston: And that it was paid through the government of Switzerland. He also said there were between 700 and 800 refugees who would come under this vote.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No; my hon. friend is quite mistaken. It is not a matter of refugees at all. At the outbreak of war Canadian citizens could be found in practically every country of Europe. Some of them were representatives of business concerns in Canada; others perhaps were tourists who found themselves unable to get out. Those people are in Germany now, and in the occupied countries. This vote is simply to provide means for a substantial measure of support for those people. They are not in any sense refugees. They are Canadian nationals who happened to be living for the time being in those countries.


Charles Edward Johnston: I am glad the minister has replied, because I was in error when I referred to refugees. I meant Canadian citizens in occupied countries in Europe. The minister stated that there were between seven and eight hundred of them; that this vote was to be used for their maintenance there, and that the money was paid out through the Swiss government. It would amount to a little more than $600 apiece for these Canadian nationals. Does it take that much to maintain them, or does a good deal of this vote go in administrative costs? Is the fund administered through the Red Cross in the occupied countries?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I can set my hon. friend's mind at ease. None of the money goes into administrative costs.


Charles Edward Johnston: I do not mean in administrative costs in Canada.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The fund is administered by the director of immigration.


Charles Edward Johnston: In Canada?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


Charles Edward Johnston: I am speaking of administration over there.
IMr. C. E. Johnston.]


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We may on occasion pay the travelling expenses of agents of the Swiss government who keeps in touch with the needs of these Canadians wherever they may be. The Swiss government have or had diplomatic representatives in all these European countries. They certainly have in Germany, and I dare say they still have consuls in all the occupied countries. It is through this machinery that we keep in touch with the needs of these Canadian nationals. Consequently expenses that might be described as administrative costs are very low.


Charles Edward Johnston: Just what are those expenses? Probably the minister has that information before him.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have not the figures here, but the director who administers the fund tells me that the costs are very low, practically nil.


Charles Edward Johnston: If the administrative costs are practically nil, I would think that $600 apiece is a very generous gift to the Canadian nationals. I am not saying that the amount should be reduced, but I am very doubtful whether these individuals get that amount. I think that there must be administrative costs somewhere. If so, they should be given to the committee.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that the payments to the Canadian nationals run about fifty dollars per month per person. When that is converted into the currency of the occupied or enemy country its effective purchasing power may be reduced. In addition, the cost of food has considerably increased in these countries. We have not very much information on that, but we asked for an increase this year because of increased living costs, and the costs may continue to increase. Some Canadians have been able to get along without asking for this assistance. The increase is due to those two factors.


Charles Edward Johnston: If the minister cannot tell us now what the administrative costs are, perhaps he could tell us later. They may be much more substantial than the minister imagines.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We will try to get that information, but the advice I get, and I accept it, is that administrative costs are practically nil.


Mr. MARSHALL:: Is it not a fact that on previous occasions moneys have been advanced from this particular allotment to Canadian high commissioners in various parts of the world?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No.

War Appropriation-Mines and Resources


James Alexander Marshall: Advances were made according to the auditor general's report for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1943. At page J-64 there is this item:
Allotment: Immigration branch-Expenditures in connection with looking after Canadian interests abroad apart from enemy and enemy-controlled territories.
Is not that the allotment we are discussing now?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


James Alexander Marshall: Under the item is this comment:
Of this allotment, $1,187.97 was expended in repatriating Canadians from Lisbon to Canada. Relief ana repatriation charges to other Canadian nationals amounted to $6,980.93. The Canadian High Commissioner at Canberra was advanced $3,938 and the Canadian High Commissioner at Pretoria $1,338.
For what purposes were these sums advanced to the high commissioners?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Some of the fund, I am advised, might be used for the relief of distressed Canadians in Great Britain, for example. Let me illustrate. If a Canadian who was in an occupied country or in Germany shortly after the outbreak of the war succeeded in getting to Britain and then found himself stranded, he could get assistance from this fund through the high commissioner. I believe the same thing has happened in Australia. I think that is the explanation of the point raised by my hon. friend.


James Alexander Marshall: In that case the fund is not administered through the Swiss Red Cross.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No. Never at any time have I stated that the fund was administered through the Red Cross. The Red Cross have had nothing to do with it.


James Alexander Marshall: Did not the minister say it was administered through Switzerland?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes. I have stated several times that the fund is administered for Canadians in enemy and enemy-occupied countries through the agency of the Swiss government. That administration is carried on between the Swiss authorities and the Canadian authority in the person of the director of immigration. The Red Cross have nothing to do with it at all.


Charles Edward Johnston: I think if the minister will agree to give the committee a break-down showing how much was spent for administration and how much these Canadian nationals actually received, it will be satisfactory. The minister has not yet given a satisfactory explanation of the disposition
of this 8475,000. He is not sure himself; he does not know. I think he should show the committee where the money has gone.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: My hon. friend is not going to get away with that for one second. It is quite easy for him to get up in his place and say: I want to know where every cent has gone.	.


Charles Edward Johnston: I did not say that.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Let me finish. I did not interrupt the hon. member. When we give him that information, he can come along and say that he wants the names of all those who got the money.


Charles Edward Johnston: That is exaggerating.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Then afterwards he might say: I want to know the colour of their hair.


Charles Edward Johnston: That is nonsense.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I did not interrupt my hon. friend. It is all a question of how much detail should be given. My hon. friend is asking for a break-down of this expenditure. We cannot give any break-down of this item of $475,000 because we do not know where it is going to be needed. We expect that it will be needed. We could probably give my hon. friend a break-down of the expenditure last year. But this item is to meet contingencies that may arise this year. I cannot tell my hon. friend new how much will be spent in Germany, how much in France, Holland, Belgium, and so on. That is impossible. The vote is here to meet requests which may reach us for assistance, and it is not possible now to give a breakdown of this amount in the manner desired by my hon. friend. If he wishes information as to how the $275,000 which was voted last year was expended, while I have not the details here I can secure them. But I must ask my hon. friend to realize that it is impossible now to break down the $475,000 and say where it will be needed.


Charles Edward Johnston: I do not want to prolong this unduly, but surely the committee should know how these moneys are going to be expended. Up to now, in the information he has given the committee the minister has not revealed how any part of it will be spent; in fact he said he thought that for administration purposes the requirements were nil. The hon. member for Cam-rose showed from the auditor general's report how some of this money was expended last year, and pointed out that quite a substantial amount was allotted to the high commission-
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ers. Since the minister has indicated that some money was paid to employees of the Swiss government for administrative purposes, we should know at least how the money which was disbursed last year was allocated, and what portion of it was received by Canadian citizens living in these countries. I do not mean, received by them as individuals, for certainly we are not concerned about the colour of their hair; no one would ask such a nonsensical thing, and I am astonished that the minister even mentioned it; it would almost seem as though he was trying to evade the question.


James Alexander Marshall: Last year the minister on his own admission stated that we did not spend $275,000.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I did not make that admission last year; I made that admission a few moments ago, that we required a little less than $275,000.


James Alexander Marshall: How did the departmental officials who estimated the amount calculate that we will require $475,000 this year, if last year the allotment of $275,000 was not spent?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: All I can say in reply is that from the information coming into the department it is expected that a larger sum will be required. My hon. friend asks upon what basis we estimate for $475,000 this year. There is not any other basis than past experience. It may be that $50,000 will be required in Germany, or it may be that not $1,000 will be required. I cannot say. All I can do is give the committee the purpose for which we are asking for the money. There is no hon. member who will disagree with the object of the vote. I can assure hon. members that it will be spent as wisely as possible; and when the war is over we shall know how it has been apportioned as between the various countries.


James Alexander Marshall: How much of the
$275,000 voted last year was spent?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have not that information here, but I will ascertain the amount which was spent and the places where it was spent last year.


Charles Edward Johnston: And the amount paid for administration.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I find I have the amount spent last year out of the $275,000; it was $267,527.44. I understand my hon. friend also wants to know how much was spent in each country. It will take a little time to compile that, but I will have it prepared and sent to my hon. friend.


James Alexander Marshall: So far as I am concerned I am not interested. All I am interested in is the amount of the allotment which was actually spent last year.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Well, that is the amount.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide single minimum cost of transportation of wives and dependents of members of the Canadian forces overseas, $100,000.
Mr. MacNICOL:: Is the minister able to state the number of soldiers' wives coming from England and the number of children accompanying them? Is it, necessary to assist all of them, or do some of them pay their own way?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The government pays the passage of these dependents to Canada. From the beginning of the war to the present time approximately fifteen hundred have been brought to Canada. In the fiscal year 1942-43 257 were brought back at an expenditure of $22,651. The number of warrants for transportation issued to dependents for the period April 1, 1943, to January 4, 1944, was 580, and the expenditure for the last fiscal year up to February 29 was $23,299.51. But the number of these people coming back week by week and month by month is increasing, and consequently we are asking for this larger sum. I cannot tell the committee whether all of it will be required; I cannot tell them whether it will be sufficient. As regards many of these war appropriation estimates all we can make is an approximation, and we hope we are fairly near the mark in the amount we are asking for here.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Some time ago I saw a newspaper item to the effect that 11,000 of our soldiers had married overseas. In due course their wives will have to be brought to Canada. In the meantime they will have some children, and the aggregate number requiring transportation will be quite large. I have been wondering whether the minister has asked for a large enough vote.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I believe the number of Canadians who have married overseas is substantially larger than the figure mentioned by my hon. friend, and it may be, if the war ends soon and a movement to Canada upon a considerable scale is begun, this amount will be insufficient; if it is, probably we can get a further amount out of the war appropriation vote. But it is not likely that there will be a very large movement of dependents during the present fiscal year. In the first place, where a soldier has married overseas and has one or two children, his family will remain there until he returns; indeed the likelihood

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is that he will return before his family. That is a problem which has to be worked out. Then there is the question of transportation facilities.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Over here?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Across from the other side to Canada. When the war is over several million troops will have to be brought back to North America. The officers think that this amount is sufficient to meet the needs of the current year.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Does the vote cover the return of soldiers' wives who went to Great Britain with their husbands?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There might have been a few in the air service who went over very early, immediately after the outbreak of the war, but later the movement of women and children was stopped. Therefore, soldiers' wives and families were not allowed to leave Canada and go to Britain. A very serious problem arose at the end of the last war. During the course of that war thousands of dependents of Canadian soldiers, wives and children, went to Britain and had to be brought back. There were over 50,000 at the end of the war. There are two or three reasons why we did not want a repetition of that after this war. There was a greater danger in this war than there was at the time of the last war in having the dependents over there, and furthermore Britain was hard pressed for food and it did not make sense to allow the dependents of Canadian soldiers to go to Britain and thus add to the difficulties there. The movement was therefore stopped. The movement which this vote will cover will be in all instances that of dependents of members of the armed forces who went overseas.


Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: Does the request for the return of the wife come from the soldier or from the wife?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: From either or both.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: What is the general policy in connection with the return of these people? Some men may have been killed and some may be fighting in the army overseas. Does the request come from the soldier himself or from his wife?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Usually the soldier makes the request of the Canadian authorities in London, and sometimes the wife does. These have to do, mainly though not altogether, with cases where the soldier has been wounded and is invalided home. He may be discharged for one reason or another and comes back to Canada, and under those circumstances, if he has married since he went to Britain, he
wishes to have his family back, and we want to bring them back. The vote is for that purpose.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Is the consent of the soldier always obtained before the request is granted?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I would assume it is. There might be cases in which the soldier did not want his dependents to come back with him, but I do not know of any.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I am thinking more particularly of soldiers still over there, soldiers still in action, and I was wondering whether the request came from the wife or the soldier. The consent of the soldier would have to be obtained, would it not?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There have been, I believe, some instances in which wives and families have returned to Canada while the soldier is still in the army. They come here to relatives. That is done by private arrangement, but in that case we pay the dependent's fare to Canada.


James Alexander Marshall: Does the government regard it as a loan or as a gift?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is not a loan, and there is no repayment.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I do not see why the soldier should not be always consulted. He is the husband, and unless there is some good reason, he should be consulted as to whether his wife should come home or not. He is the man to be thought of. That is why I asked the question.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This is ground on which I would not wish to be too dogmatic in expressing an opinion, but I believe that in practically all cases the soldier is consulted. I do not think his wife would want to run away from him over there, nor do I think he would want to run away from his recently acquired wife. These things are worked out by mutual arrangement. I do not know of any cases of the kind suggested by my hon. friend.


Mr. REID:: Is the government considering the question of designating as Canadians, in the sense of children born in Canada, the children of soldiers born in the old country? There is quite a distinction between those of us who come from the old country and are British citizens in the first instance and Canadian citizens by domicile, and persons who are Canadians by birth. Citizenship by domicile does not carry on if you leave the country, but a Canadian child, a child bom here, cannot be denied entry and is a Canadian citizen as well as a British subject throughout
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his life. Many of these children would be bom in Canada if shipping space could be provided to send the wives here. This matter is important from the point of view of the child; it is important that it be recognized as a Canadian child, as if born in Canada. Some consideration should be given the fact that these children are the children of Canadian soldiers. They are justly entitled to that consideration, because it will mean something to them in later life. Will the government consider this aspect of the matter?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: My hon. friend has raised an interesting point. He asks whether consideration has been given it. I do not think it has. When a Canadian soldier marries overseas and has two or three children before he is discharged from the army we assume that he will bring his wife and children to [DOT]Canada and the children will not be under any handicap in this country. The point is an interesting one and I would like to think it over. It strikes me offhand that if we were to clothe these British bom future Canadians with some special right it would require to be done by legislation.


Thomas Reid: It is worthy of thought.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is an interesting point and will be given consideration.


Mr. WEIR:: From whom and where is the application made for assistance to bring soldiers' dependents back to the country? That is the point which the hon. member for St. Paul's had in mind.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The request should be directed to the commissioner of immigration, Canada House, London, by those who are overseas. If a soldier overseas desires to bring his dependents to Canada he should make application to the commissioner of immigration.


Charles Edward Johnston: Is there any restriction on the amount of money? Does the applicant have to be in necessitous circumstances before he makes a request?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No.


Charles Edward Johnston: Can any soldier's wife get it?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The soldier can make application and get the transportation.


Charles Edward Johnston: Does the amount given cover just transportation or does it include other things as well?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The amount given is transportation expenses through to destination, whether it be Ottawa, Montreal, Winnipeg or Vancouver.


Charles Edward Johnston: Any soldier
who applies for it can get it?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Any soldier can get it for
his dependents.


Charles Edward Johnston: But he must be a soldier. Officers' dependents could not get it. I want to make a distinction there. Can an officer's dependent get it?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: All members of the Canadian armed forces are entitled to it and they can make application on behalf of their dependents who wish to come to Canada, or the dependents can make application and if the circumstances are all in order they get their transportation and are not asked to repay it.


Charles Edward Johnston: It does not depend on the financial standing of the person who is applying for it?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Assistance to the national advisory committee for children from overseas, $75,000.
Mr. G1LLIS: Would the minister give us a brief summary of this vote? What is the personnel of the committee, and what are its functions? In what way is this money spent? Are the members of the committee remunerated for their services?
Thomas Alexander Crerar: The members of the committee serve without remuneration. Doctor Wallace of Queen's university is chairman of the committee, and the following are members: Doctor Johnston, of Ottawa, who used to be deputy minister of Marine and Fisheries; Mr. Kenneth Greene; Mr. Fred Bronson; Mayor Lewis and Senator Wilson. Then there are a number from outside points across Canada whose names I cannot recall at the moment. As a matter of fact the general committee have not had a meeting for two years or more, I think. There is a small executive here that handles the distribution of funds and passes accounts; that is, in relation to what was known as the "Corb" children, the children who were brought to Canada at government expense in the late summer of 1040. As I recall it, about 1,560 children were brought to Canada at that time. Some of them have returned. Some of the older ones have returned to enlist, and some have enlisted in the Canadian forces.


Mr. GILLIS:: I am not interested in pressing the matter; I was merely questioning the words "assistance to the national advisory committee". As the minister pointed out, I thought that the work was pretty well com-

War Appropriation-Mines and Resources
pleted and that $75,000 of an appropriation as assistance to that committee appeared to be high.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There are over 1,300 of the children still in Canada. It will be recalled by the committee that there was a very generous response from homes of all classes of people across Canada for the reception of those children. Conditions in those homes were carefully investigated by the welfare departments of each of the provinces, from whom we receive the finest cooperation. People in many of those homes were not able out of their own means to provide expenses, some of which necessarily arose with regard to clothing, school books and the like; and there might be illness requiring hospital treatment, and so forth. There was of course a generous response from the public at the time. The general public contributed altogether over $65,000, and $37,000 of that came from the Independent Order of Oddfellows of Canada. I was particularly proud of that, because I have been a member of that order in good standing for over forty years.


Charles Edward Johnston: That is one good quality.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Oh, yes. Private donations have now practically ceased, and this amount is asked for to carry the incidental expenses of which I gave an illustration a moment ago. I do not know whether the whole amount will be required, but I do not think there is anything which has really evoked more sincere admiration from the British people as a whole than what the Canadian people have done in their limited way in caring for these children. It might be recalled-it will take only a moment-that in 1940 it was expected ' that the movement would run into substantial numbers, and it was only the torpedoing of two ships in the late summer of 1940 on which children were coming to Canada, with considerable loss of life, that stopped the movement. I have no hesitation in asking the committee to approve this vote.


Clarence Gillis: I am not objecting to it at all, but the wording of the vote is misleading. If the money is to be expended in the way the minister points out, I think it is small, but if it is to be used as the wording of the vote suggests, merely as assistance to the advisory committee, it would lead me to believe that it was an administrative vote.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think I can clear that up to my hon. friend's satisfaction.


Clarence Gillis: I am quite satisfied.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It was anticipated at the time this movement of children started that some private funds would be received; consequently the order in council that was passed, on which the whole action was based, provided for the setting up of an advisory committee and the expenditures were to be made on approval of the advisory committee but subject to government audit. That procedure has been followed, and that is why the vote is worded in this way.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: This vote refers only to children who came out under the government scheme at that time; is not that so?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The vote is practically for what is known as the "Corb" children. That is the abbreviation for the body set up in Great Britain to deal with the matter-the "Children's Overseas Reception Board." It is true that between five and six thousand women and children came to Canada voluntarily; that is, their people made arrangements for them to come here, and made arrangements for their maintenance here. There have been some instances, not a great many, in which funds provided by this vote have been used in necessitous cases. In the main the vote has reference to the children who came out under government auspices.


Mr. POULIOT:: I want to congratulate the Minister of Mines and Resources upon the interest he has taken in the welfare of these children. This afternoon the Prime Minister read a cable from the Premier of Greece, sent from Cairo, to the effect that the help sent by Canada had been received by the Greeks. That help was badly needed, and the cable indicated, that what had been sent by Canada had reached its destination. If I understood correctly what was said by the minister this item of $75,000 is in connection with children already in Canada. I suggest to the minister that something should be done for the children of Europe. It could be done through the Red Cross, in the same way that parcels are' sent to allied prisoners of war in concentration camps in Germany or the occupied countries. The distress of these children is incredible. I have here a book by Miss Therese Bonney, a lady who is very much interested in welfare work; this book is illustrated, and I will send it to the minister. The preface is in these words:
This is the tale, not of one, but of too many European countries, the story of an eye witness . . . visual testimony . . . not words . . . not propaganda .	.	. reality. There are no
staged pictures ... no misleading captions.
With my camera I have made this record in France, Spain, England, Sweden and Finland.
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This is incidental. They might have been taken m a score of other countries to-day. I have written this story with my lens. This is the truth for which I vouch.
The captions under the pictures go on in this way:
It was not so long ago-the children of Europe trooped to class. They went to school-learned their three R's; led happy normal lives at home-at play. Then-war was declared. They too read the news. Suddenly-their little voices were silenced-communications were severed and then-we knew no more. Children played while men dug trenches. Then-they too prepared for war. When the day came there was only an hour-to leave. They took to the road. Tiny tots-packs on their backs. Heavy burdens for weary mothers. From time to time they rested; the old-the young; slept anywhere, everywhere; took refuge in barns. Like grownups they too were wounded. They tried so hard to save what they loved if only-a doll. Planes overhead. They understood so little-between air raids; a moment's respite. So exhausted. At times it seemed almost impossible to trudge on. To concentration camps they went, the children, all over Europe. Mothers cradled them while fathers died at their side of neglect and tuberculosis. There the Quakers gave them paper and pencil and they tried to learn. They took it all so seriously, opened their eyes so wide; faced it so courageously-so gallantly. Timidly-they climb to would-be homes in gutted houses. In wind and rain they beg- they search for food; and so often all they find is rotten oranges. Shoeless, hungry, they stay in bed. One shoeless-rags. They go from door to door; sleep-in mangers. Victims-of a civil war, a defeat, an invasion; they face a strange life. Larders empty; "no bread-useless to insist" chalked on bakery doors. "Plus de pain; inutile d'insister." No food at home; long lines in school; one meal a day. They fold their hands in prayer and thank God for that little. Trust the world so implicitly. So few have understood; the Quakers, Red Crosses -nuns. That bread becomes not only the staff of life but the staff of resistance and oppression. They-not the Germans-get the little sent and they try so hard to say thank you.
I want to show this to the minister. I wonder if he cannot do anything for these little children who are dying of hunger in occupied Europe. Those who are here are well fed and well looked after, but these are the young men of the future generation. I hope they will never be exposed to the horrors of war. This is a tragic matter. The situation is so bad in France that little children cannot go to school unless they have a certificate from the doctor to the effect that they do not suffer from tuberculosis. Children are dying in countless numbers in Europe at the present time, and now is the time to do something for them. A society was organized in Montreal for the purpose of helping these children.
I have a friend in Westmount, an eminent artist, Mr. J. R. Spendlove, who has taken a special interest in this matter. He has done as much for these little children as Miss Therese Bonney has done in Europe. He 
wonders, for instance, why the work of the Save the Children Society of Montreal was halted. People were ready to do something. I received a letter from one of my confreres in Beauce county, who told me he wanted to do something, but all their hopes were in vain; nothing could be done. This afternoon, when we came back to the chamber after having listened to His Majesty the King, I went to see the Prime Minister and showed him some of these pathetic pictures. I do not know if that society in Montreal had the approval of the Minister of National War Services, but where is that minister to-day? He is supposed to look after all charitable organizations. This is a matter that should have come under the Minister of Mines and Resources, with his big heart, but now is the time to see that something is done, something more than words, something concrete. Our granaries are full of wheat, some of which we have sent to Greece. There is no reason why something should not be sent to the other countries of Europe. I ask the Minister of Mines and Resources and his colleagues who are listening to me now to urge this matter upon the Prime Minister, who is surely well disposed, so that something may be done at the earliest possible opportunity. Now that the invasion has commenced it will be possible to reach some of these people directly, but in the case of those who cannot be reached directly some help may be given through the Red Cross. I urge this upon the minister, and I hope that something may be done.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Following the very ,moving appeal by the hon. member for Temiscouata I want to say that I think he has done a distinct service in bringing this matter to the attention of the committee. This book of pictures which he has sent to my desk reveals a shocking condition of affairs in the districts in which these photographs were taken. Unquestionably we have no conception in Canada of the terrible plight of hundreds of thousands-yes, millions of men and women, and particularly children in, Europe to-day. To bring a measure of relief to these unfortunate people is one of the purposes of the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration, commonly called UNRRA, which was set up several months ago, and upon which Canada is prominently represented. Under UNRRA the people of Canada are pledged to provide a certain quota of relief. By far the greater portion is to come from the United States, and Great Britain andi other countries are also pledged to assist. I have no doubt whatsoever that effective steps are now being taken to organize relief for those poor people, and if the steps already taken

War Appropriation-Mines and Resources
prove insufficient, there would be no people or government in the world with any of the decent instincts of humanity that would refuse further assistance.
In the moving speech he delivered this afternoon the hon. member for Temiseouata has brought to the attention of the committee a matter to which we should give full consideration.


Gordon Graydon: It would seem that the war estimates of the Department of Mines and Resources are almost through. Therefore at this time may I pay a tribute to those of our war guests who came from Great Britain to Canada. Before doing so, however, may I add what I believe is a well-deserved tribute to the sympathetic and moving appeal made this afternoon by the hon. member for Temiseouata. It shows that in the House of Commons members have big hearts, and that they are prepared to take their stand for the rights of humanity in which this nation is so deeply interested.
Many of our war guests are now returning to their homes, some to serve in the armed forces and some for other causes, and for that reason I believe that as a parliament we might properly express our deep appreciation of having had them with us. They have been an inspiration to the whole country, particularly to the people in those communities in which they have been located. Among the guests who came to Canada were some seventy or eighty little girls from St. Hilda's college at Whitby, England. They were taken to one of the larger homes in Erindale, in my constituency, where arrangements had been made for them. I have been to that home on occasion, and the impression the little girls made upon those of us who from time to time went to see them, and to see the work being done for them by the sisters, is one which will remain with us for a long time.
I believe that the war guests have done something for the Canadian people, and I hope on the other hand that we have done something for them. I believe that their presence here has brought the people of the United Kingdom and those of Canada just a little bit closer because, in the final analysis, there is nothing like children to bring about that result.


Thomas Reid: And we hope that they will come back.


Gordon Graydon: The observation of the hon. member for New Westminster prompts me to join in the hope that they will come back. I believe that we may expect something of that kind, because I have no doubt the hospitality and welcome extended to them has been deeply appreciated.
The hon. member's remark prompts me to add something further. In the last three or four months I have had particularly heavy overseas correspondence from men who lived in my constituency but who are now overseas. Now, more than ever before, they are writing home and saying that they have friends from one or other parts of the empire, or from Great Britain itself, who are anxious to learn if this would not be a good place to come when the war is over. They want to know what the possibilities are. They want to know what jobs there will be. If I have answered one, I am sure I have answered scores of letters in the last two or three months giving *information along those lines. This is information sought by friends of our boys overseas. They have liked those boys, and because of that they think they would like our country.
I have thought it well at this time to take a moment or two of the committee's time to add this word of appreciation in respect of one of those little things brought about by the war, one of those things which, as time goes by, may develop into a very big thing


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Sundry services, $46,636.
Item agreed to.
Soldier settlement, Alaska highway, legal and survey fees, et cetera, $15,000.
Mr. FAIR:: What does this cover?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: In connection with the building of this highway it was necessary to secure right of way, and depots for storage purposes of one kind and another. The Canadian government undertook to do those things. In the process certain legal expenses arose in connection with the searching of titles, the securing of titles to roadway and other properties. This vote is directly associated with those expenditures. There are survey costs of $7,500. Then there is an item of 85,000 for field representatives and travelling expenses. There is a further item of $2,500 for legal and miscellaneous costs in connection with the item.


Stanley Howard Knowles: What relation has this to soldier settlement?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: None at all, other than that a couple of experienced employees of the soldier settlement branch did the work.


Stanley Howard Knowles: And that is the reason why it is listed under soldier settlement?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
War Appropriation-External Affairs

[Stage Direction]
Departmental administration and passport office, $142,425.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, hon. members may recall I mentioned a few days ago that, when taking up civil estimates, I would make a general statement on external affairs, and would be prepared to discuss individual items in the committee at whatever length hon. members might desire. My hope is that it will not be necessary to discuss on these war appropriation estimates, in any detail in any event, the matters that would be discussed on the civil estimates.
I might explain that when the war came on, the Department of External Affairs necessarily assumed a number of additional duties and began to perform services which had not been performed in peace time. It is apparent now that many of these services will for the most part have to be continued after the war is over. I might illustrate; for example, a number of new legations and embassies have been opened during the war. In making appropriation for these services where they have arisen ,n time of war we have voted some of the moneys required under the war appropriation. This year, in order to make matters a little clearer, we have included many of these services in the civil estimates account rather than in the war appropriation estimates. Hon. members will see we are asking for smaller amounts in the war appropriation estimates than we did a year ago.. That does not mean that there will be less expenditure on these services. It means that we have transferred to the civil estimates expenditures we were formerly voting under the war appropriation. All the three items here set forth, departmental administration and passport office, representation abroad, and sundry services could be discussed under the civil estimates as they will come up then, and I would hope that they might be discussed then rather than now.
Mr. KNOWLES; In idew of what the Prime Minister has just said about transferring the expenditures to civil estimates, may I ask why he does not transfer all of them? Are the amounts that are still here in the nature of war estimates?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There are always certain exceptional things arising; for example, temporary staff, the renting of premises that had not been anticipated or that might only be temporarily required and the like. Provision for such may appear under the war appropriation estimates. If they continue after the war they will thereafter appear in the civil estimates.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Representation abroad, $87,000.
Item agreed to.
Sundry services, $108,000.
Item agreed to.
Gordon Graydon: Now that the items have been carried-I was fearful of provoking further discussion if I spoke before-I wonder whether the Prime Minister at some time, not necessarily now, would clarify something which has not been clear to my mind. The other day the diplomatic representatives of Chile and Canada were raised to the rank of ambassadors from ministers, and I was wondering what the policy was that governs such changes. Perhaps the Prime Minister would make a statement on that when his civil estimates are up. I was curious why it was done in the case of some countries and not in that of others. I was also wondering who takes the initiative in such matters, whether it is done by agreement, and generally what is the policy covering such changes.


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: And is
there no distinction made between great countries and small countries? We should not have ambassadors to every country.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: On this continent we had reached the stage where our minister at Washington was the only senior representative with the rank of minister of all the countries represented there. All the South American countries had ambassadors, and we did not feel that our representative should take second place to any country in this western hemisphere.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is equality of status.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Both in status and in stature we felt that we could hold our own.
Privy council office-
Statutory orders and regulations division, $40,665.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Wartime information .board, $995,707.
Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: I do not think this item should carry without some explanation from the Prime Minister as to the need for this amount of money. There is a lot of money spent by the wartime information board that should not be spent. They are getting out bulletins all the time. Here is one, "Airmail Bulletin." They have issued a number of bulletins. They are coming out nearly every day, and sometimes what they get out is not even accurate.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I should not like to admit the last statement. There must

War Appropriation-External Affairs
be some explanation. My parliamentary assistant, the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George, has been following very closely this phase of the work of the privy council and I shall allow him to make the explanations that are being called for.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Two
instances were brought to my attention of bulletins sent out by the wartime information board covering national selective service. I took occasion to write, protesting against the duplication, to the gentleman whom I see in front of me. I must say that he answered very courteously but without very much conviction, to me at all events. There is duplication and some of the information given out is not even supplementary. I am sorry I have not my file with me. I could show the Prime Minister exactly what I mean if I had it here. The wartime information board were sending out information with respect to the operations of certain government departments which the departments themselves had already covered and covered very fully with respect to employers, employees and so forth. Two of the bulletins I refer to were just pure duplication. If the board have to be busy-and I suppose they have to or they could not justify themselves- care should be taken to see that there is no overlapping, because all this comes out of the taxpayers' money. There should be more coordination to prevent this duplication. I am sorry I have not under my hand the two bulletins to which I refer, but I am sure I was justified in making the protest which I did at that time. There is duplication-that is the assertion I make.


Mr. CLAXTON:: Last year the appropriation and work of the wartime information board were very fully explained and discussed, and I do not feel that hon. members would wish me at this time to make any extended remarks.
The work of the boardJ has been carried on and has been expanded considerably during the past year to fill strong and obvious needs for its services. Plans for this fiscal year are for the continuation of activities on about the present level. The amount of the board's estimates is small in relation to the need for the spreading of knowledge about wartime Canada both abroad and inside the country itself.
The events of to-day bring home the desire of all Canadians to have all possible information about their country and its place in the world and the glorious record our forces are making abroad. Information leads to understanding and understanding to common action.
Information has played an important part and has still a great role to play in the winning of the war and the laying of a solid foundation for peace. It was in pursuance of these objects that the board was set up to meet a real need.
The remarks of the hon. member for York-Sunbury were directed toward a publication known as "Labour Facts," issued by the wartime information board to editors of labour journals to industrial establishments and trades unions. The bulletin was issued after a very careful survey had been made which indicated that there was a strong need for such a publication. I have a copy under my hand.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Why does the parliamentary assistant say that? I will tell him that the publication came to me from a big industrialist who said that he had already received the information many times from the Department of Labour and that there was nothing new in this publication.
As to the necessity for this board generally, my understanding of the setting-up of this board vras that it was to diffuse proper information in the United States, where there was a misunderstanding as to Canada's war effort. I applauded that because I thought they were in need of information over there as to Canada's aims and objectives; as to what we did, how we did it and why we did it. But the work of this board is expanding at an alarming rate. More than that, it ignores the public press of this country. Most of the stuff this board sends out, the newspaper men tell me, finds its way into the wastepaper basket.


Brooke Claxton: This sheet, "Labour
Facts", was sent out, as I say, to meet a need which was strongly expressed. That material was not made available in any other form. This is not of the nature of news; it is information bearing on labour questions; and I can read to the committee, if it wishes me to take the time, some part of this file of commendations received from representatives of trades unions and industrial establishments and industrial organizations, commending this publication and stating that it meets a long-felt need. May I read one, from Mr. A. R. Mosher, president of the Canadian Congress of Labour:
For several months the wartime information board has been publishing a bulletin entitled "Labour Facts" for the use of labour publications in Canada. I believe that that bulletin should be read by labour editors on publication and that the material in it, both text and illustrations, should be utilized to the fullest extent. It is almost impossible to keep up with activities in the field of labour on a national and international scale, and much interesting material that would be overlooked ordinarily is brought together in "Labour Facts" in such a way that it can be reprinted directly or

War Appropriation-External Affairs
rewritten to meet the requirements of the editor. May I commend "Labour Facts" to all labour editors and urge that they cooperate with the wartime information board by giving wider circulation to the material it contains.
There is a very large file of similar correspondence. This publication does not take the place of regular news services; it does provide material which editors concerned in dealing with labour questions can use in such form as they wish, and they do use it.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Does the parliamentary assistant suggest that this is any more than a collection board of material which is already sent out by the labour department? That is my understanding of what it is, and whether or not Mr. Mosher has received this material in a convenient form suitable for his purposes, or whether labour editors have received it, I say as a fact that what is sent out and distributed in this pamphlet was already distributed by the Department of Labour, and is a duplication. That is what I am told.


Brooke Claxton: A reference to the publication itself will indicate that it is not a duplication. On the other hand, it does present in various forms material which has already been sent it by the labour department, but in addition it presents material bearing on the treatment of labour questions in other countries of the British commonwealth including the United Kingdom, and in the United States, and brings to the attention of those dealing with labour matters information of a general nature which is interesting and which has a definite .usefulness in Canada. If you look at volume 1, No. 4, which I have in my hand, you see the headlines in one column, "Labour in Other Lands". "U.S. Trades Unions Increase Membership". Then there is another heading, "Aussies Say Unions 15-7 per cent of Population". "Ford Co. in Britain Signs Union Agreement". And so on. It presents in this particular column information which would not ordinarily be available in any other form. It also collects information which is available in some other form and puts it in the most presentable and most useful form for the purposes of these editors.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I mentioned before this "Airmail Bulletin" sent out by the wartime information board. This is dated February 21. One of the items is, "Labour-Progressive Platform:	Tim Buck,
National Leader ..." Of course I understand now why they put that in, because Buck wants to affiliate with the Liberal party. But it is information which newspapers

throughout the country already had, and I understand that these are sent to practically every newspaper in Canada.
Here is another dealing with shipbuilding, and it states that Hughes Cleaver, of Halton, chairman of the war expenditures committee, says the government is saving $40 millions on account of readjustments. That is nothing but bunk, and we know it.


Richard Burpee Hanson: It is
nothing but propaganda.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: All these bulletins are the same. Here is something about the Saskatchewan election, in the wartime information bulletin of May 12; they even forecast what it is going to be.


An hon. MEMBER:: What is the forecast?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: They say that the main fight is expected to be between the Liberals and the C.C.F.-which also is absolute bunk, because the Progressive Conservatives are going to come out on top there. That sort of stuff should not appear in wartime information board publications.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I should like to ask the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George how he justifies that.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Here is another one, put out on May 29, reporting "Captain Denton's Warning", in a speech in the house, and they correct it on May 1. They say, "Correction, item 3, Saturday", that it should be "Group Captain Denton Massey", instead of "Captain Denton". That is the sort of stuff they put out. They ask us to save paper. Good Lord, this outfit is destroying paper as fast as they can do it.
Here is another one, "Canadian Churches".
I understand this bulletin is sent out every, month. There is an article, "Churches in Chains", dated November, 1943. Also we have "Consumer Facts". There is a "Consumer Radio Service". I know quite well that, as the hon. member for York-Sunbury says, most of this is thrown in the wastepaper basket. Here are more sheets, "News Features", a service sent out to Canadian newspapers weekly for them to clip. Yet another one, "Facts and Figures Weekly". There is a French edition as well as an English one.


James Alexander Marshall: How does the hon. member get all these?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: They come, all right. Here is another one, "Postwar Planning Information, Wartime Information Board, Ottawa".


James Alexander Marshall: A lot of these I never heard of.

War Appropriation-External Afjairs


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Yes, but they are being issued, thousands and thousands of them. Here is another, "Weekly Editor Looks at Ottawa", by Jim Greenblatt. It is prepared by the wartime information board and sent to the Canadian weeklies. I have here another one, "Wartime Clips", intended for weeklies and other newspapers. Certainly, as I said before, the government is helping to waste paper. Look at all this stuff. "Book Shelves", "Canadian Affairs", "Future for Fighters". If you go through this you will find that it is a set-up for the government in power.


Mr. SINCLAIR:: It is first-class stuff.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: According to your say-so.


John Ewen Sinclair: According to any fighting man who wants to know what has been done for him.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: That would be all right if it was-


John Ewen Sinclair: Published by the Tory party.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: No; they would not waste paper putting out all this stuff. They would issue it in a form that the soldier, sailor or airman could read.


John Ewen Sinclair: Another fifty points by
John Bracken-for the soldier this time.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: When John Bracken is here, leading this house-


John Ewen Sinclair: "When."


Gordon Knapman Fraser: It
will not be very long. These are samples of the pile of stuff which is being sent out all the time, and which is nothing but a waste of material. In the air force they even ask how the people are going to vote, and the wartime information board are doing practically the same thing.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I think
we ought to have a little more justification of this, because it is waste.


Brooke Claxton: The hon. member says it is waste. That does not make it waste.


Richard Burpee Hanson: No; but
it is a good opinion.


Brooke Claxton: The hon. member for
Peterborough West referred first to the "Airmail Bulletin," and said that it competed in some way with newspapers.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: No; I never said that. I said that it was sent to all places in the United States, to the newspapers there. That is where I understand it is sent.


Brooke Claxton: The hon. member's information is not correct. This is a concise statement of developments in public affairs and in the war effort throughout the dominion. It is sent by air mail to Canadian diplomatic missions, trade commissioners, British embassies and legations, in Central and South America, to the various departments of information, broadcasting and government, to the head offices of a limited number of Canadian exporting firms who have expressed the desire to have it. All these cannot receive the information quickly by any other service. The need was expressed and this publication meets it. It is a single sheet on airmail paper and goes out daily. It is the only way these diplomatic missions and others living abroad receive prompt information about events in Canada. My hon. friend referred to some of the items as if they were mistaken. I have not seen any cases of inaccuracy.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I was told by a member of the war information board that it was sent to newspapers.


Brooke Claxton: It may be sent to newspapers at their own request if they cannot get ordinary news or other services, but it is not sent to newspapers generally.
With regard to " Canadian Churches and the War," this publication is sent out to ministers of non-Roman Catholic churches. It was decided, after conferring with the committee of heads of churches presided over by the primate of the Anglican church, that this would be a useful service. It was to supply a need which the ministers themselves expressed that this service was undertaken. This publication matches a similar service given in the United Kingdom to the churches there. There is a corresponding service that goes to Catholic churches in Canada, and that was agreed to after discussions with the cardinal himself, who expressed his sympathy with the project. In these bulletins material is largely collected from publications in England, in the United States and in other countries as well as in Canada, bearing directly on the work of the churches in connection with the war and the organization of peace after the war.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I have one bulletin which says, "Roosevelt and Wilkie define functions," et cetera. That is January, 1944. Do these go to all the churches or just to the Roman Catholic, the United Church and the Church of England?


Brooke Claxton: The first publication I
mentioned goes to all churches of Protestant denominations, and to all non-Roman Catholic churches. " Nouvelles Catholiques " goes to Roman Catholic churches.


Mr. STIRLING:: These are free?


Brooke Claxton: Yes. Mr. Greenblatt, who edits it, is himself a weekly editor, and this service is widely used.


Richard Burpee Hanson: (York-Sunbury):	Is it
objective or is it propaganda?


Brooke Claxton: It is objective.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Entirely?


Brooke Claxton: My hon. friend and I could go through it and we might differ over certain points-


Richard Burpee Hanson: You are the authority.


Brooke Claxton: -but it is as objective as it can be made. I should add that the weekly newspapers themselves suggested) that Mr. Greenblatt should be the editor of this particular work.
fMr. Claxton.]
My hon. friend mentioned "Canadian Affairs." "Canadian Affairs" was started at the express request of Genera! McNaughton and was referred to in the debate last year. It has been continued, and I have here in a folder expressions of the highest commendation of this publication from officers commanding units from one end of Canada to the other as well as from many units in the United Kingdom. The publication corresponds very closely to a similar one previously issued in Great Britain by the United Kingdom authorities for the service of their troops there.
My hon. friend did not mention "Canada at War", which has the largest circulation of any publication of the wartime information board. That is a publication that is recognized as unique. "Canada at War" is recognized everywhere as the most compact and informative information bulletin issued in any country to-day. Hon. members have all seen the illustrated number which was issued in March and I can assure them that it has received the widest possible praise both inside and outside Canada.


Grote Stirling: The Prime Minister said that he was not in a position to accept the allegation that inaccuracies appeared in these publications. I would remind him of one. Earlier this session he was putting through a small supplementary vote in connection with refugees, and I called attention to the fact that the February number of "Canada at War" gave a list of dates in the month of January and asserted that a consignment of refugees, I believe 250, had arrived in Canada from the Iberian peninsula that month. Investigation had shown me that it had not yet been decided that they should come, much less had come, and I think the Prime Minister himself had been misled by that information. He will remember that these refugees not only had not come but did not come for some weeks after that.
Another instance of inaccuracy in "Canada at War" was brought before the committee last evening by the hon. member for Comox-Albemi, a particularly displeasing one to the people of British Columbia, where it was asserted that seventy-five per cent of the Japanese in Canada were Canadian born. As the Prime Minister knows, that is a very difficult question in British Columbia, particularly at this time. It is unfortunate that such a misleading statement as that should have come out in "Canada at War". The real figures were placed on Hansard, this session, last session and the session before, and I cannot understand how those who produce "Canada at War" could have made those two mistakes, both of which have come particularly

War Appropriation-External Affairs
to my attention. I do not see how it could happen if they collect the facts, sift and examine them carefully before allowing them to go into print.


Brooke Claxton: The hon. member is quite right in his reference to the statement about the coming of refugees in "Canada at War"; that statement was based on information which had not been properly verified and it was not correct. We are very much indebted to him for pointing it out.
With regard to the percentage of Japanese born in Canada, I have not the figure and I am sure we are very glad indeed to get that correction too. I point out that those publications are issued fairly widespread. "Canada at War" has a large circulation, I think I am right in saying that the hon. member is one of the few people who have ever detected any error of fact in that publication.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I detected one which was admitted, but we did not discuss it publicly. It was a terrible thing to put in this publication.


Brooke Claxton: When one takes into
account the amount of statistical information it contains and the difficulty of securing adequate secretarial and editorial staff in these days I think it will be seen that the record is a fairly good one, all things considered.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I notice
they are spending about fifty per cent more this year than they did last year. How much has the staff increased and what is the salary increase? Who is now the head of the board? I understand that Doctor Mackenzie has resigned. Who is now the head of the board and what salary does he receive?


Mr. ADAMSON:: What is the circulation?


Brooke Claxton: Doctor Mackenzie has
not resigned. He is going to move to British Columbia to take up his new office as president of the university of British Columbia. I think it can be anticipated that when he does move he will resign and will have to be replaced.


Richard Burpee Hanson: He told
me he was going to resign; I thought he had.


Brooke Claxton: No; he has not resigned.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That is an
error.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I have his own word for it that he was going to resign. I immediately assumed that he had. He certainly cannot do the work as chairman of this board-


Brooke Claxton: That is quite different
from saying that he has resigned. He receives, of course, no remuneration.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I realize
that.


Brooke Claxton: None of the members of the board receives any remuneration. With regard to the staff, at the time the estimates were dealt with last year it amounted to 142. The figure to-day is 157.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Has the parliamentary
assistant any idea of the circulation of "Canada at War''?


Brooke Claxton: Yes; ISO,000.


Stanley Howard Knowles: It seems to be a popular indoor sport to criticize the wartime information board, and since I sit on the opposition side I suppose I might be expected to indulge in that sport; but I am going to vary it a bit and say one or two things on the other side.
I agree in part with the criticism that there is a certain amount of material that is not all it should be, and that there is considerable waste, but in the main I think the job the wartime information board has set itself to, namely, the collecting and disseminating of information on all possible subjects relating to the war-time situation and also the task of getting informative material through to the members of the forces, is one that had to be tackled, and I would hope that from the floor of this house we might not try to discourage the board but that we might offer constructive criticism in order that the work of this board might be improved.
I should like to say a word about two publications. One has already been mentioned, namely, "Canadian Affairs". The other is "Canada Digest". Although I have some criticisms that I might offer about them in a moment, I think they are very good publications, and in this I agree with the hon. member for Vancouver North who made commendable references to them a moment ago. Having said that, may I offer one or two suggestions which I hope will be constructive? I think we have to face this fact, that politics is an important factor in the life of any democratic country; certainly it is in the life of this country. There is no use in tiying to evade that issue; there is no use in trying to be supra-political in talking about our national affairs.
In this country we have several major political parties. They take definite stands. They are all very active, and a great many people feel that the future of this country depends upon which of those parties rise to the top out of the general situation in which we find ourselves. Bearing that in mind, I think the wartime information board, both in the reference papers that it is preparing for use generally at home and in publications that it
3584	COMMONS
War Appropriation-External Affairs
prepares for the forces, should collect and give more information about other political groups, in addition to the party now in power. For example, a commendable series is reaching my desk right now. I do not receive all the material that the hon. member for Peterborough West receives, and on that score I feel a little bit slighted. One commendable series that is coming to me is one in which post-war planning information is being collected-


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I mentioned that.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The hon. member mentioned that, yes. I have read that material closely and I have not yet seen anything in it but the plans of the government now in power. It is a good idea to collect that material and make it available, but I think that not only .would the wartime information board save itself from criticism but it would be doing a job that it ought to do if it also collected the plans of the Progressive Conservative party, assuming they have some clans.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: We lertainly have.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Also plans of tire C.C.F., which we print from time to time and publish in books that members of this house are only too glad to buy.


Gordon Graydon: After all they cannot transport libraries overseas.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I am quite enjoying the cross-fire that is going on here, but at the same time I am serious and I think hon. members agree with me that if information is to be collected about plans being drafted by responsible bodies in Canada, that material should include not only the material of one party which happens to be the government in power but also the material of the other responsible parties of this country. I feel that the same principle should be given effect to in "Canadian Affairs" and in "Canada Digest". I would therefore suggest that there should be articles in "Canadian Affairs" on the activities of other political groups. The men overseas are interested in what is going on at home. Many of them have been away for quite a few years. They do not know what has developed in the meantime. It seems to me that the wartime information board would be doing its job just that much better if it gave information about other groups. I would suggest that the best place to get authentic information about the Progressive Conservative party is not from us or from the Liberals but from the Progressive

Conservative party. When I say that, my hon. friends to the right do not interrupt me, I notice. The same thing applies to the C.C.F. The best place to get information about our party is not from our enemies-


Richard Burpee Hanson: The
trouble with my hon. friend is that the members of his party do not all agree. One fellow in British Columbia says one thing, and another fellow here says another.


Stanley Howard Knowles: -but from us. Similarly with the "Canada Digest". Articles by or about the political leaders of other groups might be reprinted.
As I said a few moments ago, I feel that we have to be realistic about this word "politics". So often it is suggested that there is something underhanded about it, that we should not get "political"; but the plain fact is that politics is an important factor in our Canadian life; it always has been and is definitely so at the present time. I would urge the wartime information board to try to be not just a board of the government but a board of the people of Canada; to aim at collecting and supplying information, both in the reference material provided here at home and the material provided to members of the forces, concerning all the groups and all the activities in Canada at the present time.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I want to register my protest against the underlying theory of the hon. member's proposal. What is it? That in wartime the money of the taxpayers of this country should be utilized in disseminating political propaganda. He objects, and perhaps properly, that the information disseminated by the wartime information board is political propaganda in favour of the government of the day. I think there is a good deal in that charge; I believe it is one of the charges one might justly bring against this board. But let us view the thing from its wider aspect. If the government in charge is entitled to do what it is doing, the hon. member says that we should be allowed [DOT]-meaning his party-to have our views disseminated at public expense in wartime, and the Progressive Conservative party should have the same privilege. Why does he stop there? We have in this house representatives of the bloc populaire; why should they not have their views disseminated at public expense through these government publications? Then we have the Canadian party. It is not large, it is true, but at times it is vocal; and why should he not have his views dis-

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seminated in the same way? I need only go down the whole gamut to reduce this whole thing to an absurdity.
The fact of the matter is that not one dollar of this money should be utilized for political propaganda in behalf of any party, and I know that in principle the Prime Minister will agree with that statement. I believe the *distinction he will make is this. He will say that the plans of the government for the future are not in the nature of political propaganda, that they are statements of government policy. Well, the dividing line there is too narrow for me. I do not think any of this money, ought to be spent in disseminating the views of any particular party with respect to any economic proposals, for the future or otherwise. I do not think the taxpayers of this country will agree to expenditures of that kind; certainly I am not going to agree. No matter what may be the sins of the government in this regard, I am sure they vvould not agree either. What about Tim Buck? Why should he not get his oar in also?


Stanley Howard Knowles: He has it in now.


Mr. JAQUES:: He uses the CBC.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I did not know his propaganda was appearing in "Canada at War" and other government publications. I know he is trying with all his might to attach himself to some party. First he tried the socialist party, but they repudiated him. Now he is knocking gently at the door of the Prime Minister, and as far as I am concerned the right hon. gentleman is welcome to him. I notice that the only political parties he has not sought to associate with are the Social Crediters and the very respectable Progressive Conservative party, to which I belong, and I tell him now that if he knocks at our door he knocks in vain.
But let us be serious about this matter for a moment. I ask the Prime Minister to see to it and give instructions that any information disseminated by these boards shall be objective and shall not be open to the criticism that it is political propaganda. The hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre has made the definite charge that material which has gone out is propaganda on behalf of the government. I believe a great many people will agree with that view. It may be arguable, but I do not think much issue can be taken with that statement if you consider as a whole what has been sent out. Certainly I would object to any of my taxes-and I pay a good deal-being used to disseminate my political views. I shall do that in some other
way. I would register the strongest possible protest I could summon to my aid against sending out propaganda in favour of the socialistic policies of my hon. friends to the left. I am not going to help pay for that if I can help it.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: May I just reply to my hon. friend and say that I would very strongly resent government publications being used for purposes of political propaganda. I think all the boards understand that, and I am perfectly sure the members of this board seek in their publications to avoid what may be regarded as propaganda and to give only facts.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I
should like to ask the parliamentary assistant to the Prime Minister what Canada pays towards the united nations information office at CIO Fifth avenue, New York?


Brooke Claxton: In the period March 31, 1943 to February 29, 1944, the amount was $3,446.54.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Just for distribution, is it?


Brooke Claxton: It is a contribution to the work of the office. The united nations information office is one of the instruments of the united nations. Quite a number of those nations contribute to the work of the office. The costs are allocated among them, and Canada's contribution between those dates was the amount I have mentioned.


Thomas Langton Church: I should like to call the attention of the committee to some matters in connection .with this wartime information board which I think are of most importance, particularly in view of the changed position in the war. As hon. members know, the appointment of this particular information board was, in my opinion, a reflection upon the press of this country. It showed not only a lack of appreciation, but a lack of confidence in the press of the country, which had done such splendid work during the last war, in the present war, and in the long years of depression between.
I am very much surprised, in view of the changed conditions in the war, that the government is now anxious to continue this policy of spending nearly a million dollars in the United States to educate the people over there.

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I have looked into this situation very carefully. There was a debate on July 13 last year with respect to this same subject matter. It was pointed out at that time that some of the leading people wanted us to open offices in New York, Chicago, San Francisco, and many other places in the United States. What for? To try to educate the people of the United States about Canada, and all that kind of thing. As a result of this the parliamentary assistant, and others, invited many members of the press to come to Canada. Fifteen or twenty of them looked over the country. They came, they saw, but they did not conquer. They went back home and wrote a few articles in their newspapers-and in some cases Canada paid in gold of the realm for it, paid for ads in those little papers- pages of ads in papers. They went into the county papers, and all that kind of thing.
The government forgets to realize that we have to-day a regular expeditionary force. Where? In the United States. What are they doing? Why, you cannot walk down a street in Washington without meeting them. We have a small standing army in Washington, and we purchased big locations for them. They say, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." I suppose it would be, "When in Washington, do as the Americans do." They have spent money like water on this publicity and information campaign. In my opinion the good it has done has not amounted to a snap of the fingers, so far as educating the people of the United States is concerned, or to win the war. Our soldiers and the glorious work in Italy, Sicily, Africa and other places have done more than any information bureaux, past, present and future.
I believe in putting on the brakes, so far as these expenditures are concerned. The expenditures of this particular department are going up by leaps and bounds. Away back on July 13, 1943, it was a different story. They had no office. I have no quarrel with the parliamentary assistant, because he is a most excellent gentleman, and one whom I have known for a long time. But there is a difference of opinion between him and me and between the Prime Minister and me in respect of public matters like this one. The Prime Minister has done a great deal in the United States to bring about good will. I admit that; I give him credit for it. He is well liked over there. But I have differed with him on many public questions, and I do in this instance. I do not take anything back in what I have said. I was opposed to this proposition of a wartime information office, right from the start.

This branch has been under the control of almost half a dozen ministers and acting ministers. One of the ministers was a gentleman who went to the bench-a very good citizen. He had charge of this board at one time. Then it came into the hands of a new minister.
What do we find here? We find a number of newspaper men coming forward, and offices were opened in the United States in October, 1942. The office had been open for only ten months when the last vote was before the house. At page 4711 of Hansard for 1943 we find a description of policy. It is said that the men in New York and Washington work hard. They go down and look at these glorious offices, fitted out in New York city. Well, you would think that the field of the cloth of gold could not be compared with some of that furniture. One would be reminded of another place in this building, where he sees that kind of furniture. Then those men go to work, and they want to open offices also in San Francisco, Chicago and other places to educate America. Last year the parliamentary assistant said, as reported at page 4711 of Hansard:
Those suggested to me now are the representatives of the Associated Press, the Chicago Sun, the New York Daily News, the NFA service and a good many others.
After you have gone through all this, what do you find? Well, you find that there was a debate on this very question, namely, that of understanding Canada, which took place in the senate and house of representatives at Washington. What did they say? Some congressmen said that Canada to-day was paying tribute and cash taxes to Britain yet, the same as in the days of Lord North-a tribute of millions of pounds a year, in taxes taken out of this country by the imperial government. Then there was a debate in Washington on what was known as the Connolly bill-Senator Connolly who was in Ottawa last summer to attend a meeting of the empire parliamentary association. On that occasion he made a fine address. It was asked whether Great Britain should have five seats in a proposed new organization, or only one seat.
Mr. Denys Smith, writing in the May issue of the National Review, criticizes this policy. He states:
The similarity of American and British history, however, is not only unrecognized in the United States, but American information about the British empire appears to have become crystallized about fifty years ago so *far as the vast majority of the population is concerned. Some of the ideas entertained about modern Britain and the British empire would be a travesty of the truth were they applied to the days of George III. There are, unfoT-

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tunately, few ways of measuring the depth of this ignorance although it is manifest in every congressional debate on foreign policy and in many editorial disquisitions even in reputable newspapers. A recent Gallup poll showed that three-quarters of the population believed Canada paid taxes to the British treasury, an obvious residual impression left by the usual school textbook presentation of the war of independence as an attempt iby the parliament at Westminster, or as the textbook would more probably phrase it, the British king, to get taxes from the colonies for the benefit of the mother country. If there is that much ignorance about Canada, a country which is the United States closest neighbour and one which tens of thousands of Americans have visited at one time or another, there is small wonder at the ignorance displayed, say about India. British knowledge of America is far from perfect. But it is not as bad as American ignorance of Britain.
There is the same ignorance about Canada. I was glad to see the Prime Minister's efforts in collaborating with the great President of the United States and it is of the utmost importance that we continue to collaborate with our glorious ally to the south. But there is a right and a wrong way of approach. I have talked to a number of Americans. I was one of the officers of the municipality of Toronto for a great number of years; a large number of Americans visited that city in the summertime and I met many of them. They are very fine people, but they would respect Canada and the mother country more if they knew more about us, and if we would tell them the truth once in a while about our empire. There was a debate on foreign policy in both houses of congress three weeks ago last Monday, and the views expressed there were more significant than the general resolution passed in favour of post-war collaboration. There was a food convention at Atlantic City, a body known as the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration. It formulated its policy at a conference in Atlantic City, an American city which is typically American in the sense that its like would be hard to find elsewhere. The general Republican position toward world affairs combines two apparently irreconcilable concepts. First there is the suspicion of anything in the nature of a close association with a few powers in the post-war world, and a preference for an all-inclusive union of all countries large and small. Yet at the same time there is opposition to the principle of equal rights for all countries great and small. In other words, as to isolation they are back to the days of George Washington and Andrew Jackson- a policy of no commitments.
There was a chance, right in the cities of Washington, New York and Atlantic City, for our publicity men and this information bureau to act and do some good work, to educate the people of the United States. We
have a small standing army of publicity men and our military forces and other agents there. If they were to march down Bank street four abreast they would reach from here to Lansdowne park, but apparently no effort is made to explain the position of Canada to the people of the United States. Look at the glorious record which our Canadian soldiers have won in Europe, by their work in Sicily and in Italy, by their march across the desert, and by the capture of Rome. In every theatre of war they have distinguished themselves. But all that is not publicized in the United States by our publicity men.
There has been a wide expansion of the information bureau since last July. We had a debate in this house on July 12 last on the wartime information board, which continued on July 13 and lasted into the 14th and what have been the results from the efforts of our publicity bureau? What have we got? They have not been telling the people of the United States about Canada and what it has done. No one can justify the way in which our public relations officers and publicity men and the information bureau have expanded in numbers in the United States.
I have a return here which was brought down in accordance with an order of the house last week showing that we have 396 publicity officers, 156 of them being press agents and liaison officers in one branch alone. All these officers are to educate the public, mostly in the United States. It is really usurping the power of the press of this country and shows a lack of confidence in the press to establish such a board. A true picture should be given to the electors of what is happening at home and abroad. These public relations officers have expanded to a small regiment. Their work is not merely to educate the public but apparently to put before the public all that there is in Webster's dictionary. They tell us all about food, all about clothing, all about departmental policies. They have a spokesman in each department who gives interviews to the newspapers along the lines I have mentioned. Then they have what is called an apology department, a chief apologist for policy, past, present and future. He is really a ghost writer behind the scenes, a spokesman for this, that and the other department. There are 156 of these publicity, press and liaison officers, and I do not know how many there are altogether. That was never intended when the board was created. Then they get up Gallup polls to show what the state of public opinion is on various matters that come before the country. I believe that the information board has left undone what it should have done. When the
3588	COMMONS
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United States was losing ships through U-boat attack in the north Atlantic a great American general, Eisenhower, wrote to the head of Eire, de Valera, a strong letter telling what was happening to American ships and how the sinkings and the deaths of sailors were aiding the axis powers, and speaking of the policy with respect to southern Ireland. Why did we not do the same thing, and why did our information board not do the same thing? Why did our information bureau not give the people of Canada the facts? We should have done it ourselves. This United States general wrote that an explanation should be demanded from southern Ireland as to why United States ships were being sunk for lack of bases in southern Ireland.
The information bureau should have said something about the strikes that are going on in war time. They put advertisements in United States magazines, monthlies and newspapers. Here is a recent editorial from Life. It i3 a criticism along the lines of what we were told by the hon. member for Greenwood and by the Prime Minister of Australia the other day, and by others, that we are losing the battle in the war on the home front. This editorial in Life says:
The home front, speaking generally, seems to have no comprehension of the historic role that it is being called upon to play. Hence, instead of pulling together it is breaking apart. Thus in the last several months every major effort to stream-line the home front for war has failed. The farm bloc has scrambled a subsidy programme for keeping down the cost of living. In three of the most vital industries-coal, railroads and steel-labour has defied the government and driven wages upward. Efforts to tax the swollen war incomes that the nation is enjoying have wholly failed.
I believe in having a proper information bureau which will tell the people the facts, whether they are good, bad or indifferent. No matter how bad they are, and how bad the news is, the public should be informed. The policy of the government in expanding this service all over the United States, sending out a small expeditionary force of publicists, and gathering in all these correspondents, is not worth a snap of the fingers as regards helping the war along or educating America. Our brave soldiers, sailors and airmen will do Canada more good with the achievements which stand to their credit than all this expenditure of money upon advertisements in United States newspapers, and things of that kind. If we want to promote this sort of education let us do it in the British empire, because charity begins at home, and dear knows you have something to speak about in the glorious record which this empire has made in the war. Britain held the gate of the continent until [Mr. Church.1
our troops came to the aid of the motherland.
I hope there will be some retrenchment in this expenditure. Personally I would not continue it any longer, in view of the invasion now in progress. From the time of Lord North, nearly two hundred years, Britain has tried this kind of appeasement policy of spending money to educate America and the world at large, and it cannot be done. The glorious record of our soldiers in this war, the great achievements of the United* States army and navy, and the comradeship which this war has brought about between the forces of the United States, Canada and the mother country, will be of more lasting value than all the spending of money on newspaper advertising and other such material aids. '


Jean-François Pouliot: I desire to ask the parliamentary assistant to the President of the Privy Council to give details of the expenditure of moneys under this vote.


Brooke Claxton: The break-down of the
vote can be given very readily if the committee desires it. Salaries, $329,457; cost-of-living bonus, $15,000; unemployment insurance, $1,250; travelling, $65,000; motion pictures, $10,000; radio, $50,000; photos and mats, $100,000; pamphlets, $185,000; posters nothing this year, that having been transferred to the film board; printing and stationery, $40,000; public speaking, $15,000; Canadian Council on Education for Citizenship, $10,000; overseas publicity, nothing this year; visitors, $20,000; displays, $25,000; united nations information service, $15,000; miscellaneous, $115,000; total, $995,707.


Jean-François Pouliot: I thank the hon. gentleman. Now I will ask him to give us the cost of each publication.


Brooke Claxton: The wartime information board has not accounting officers of its own. Its books are kept by the treasury officials. They are kept under the categories which I have just mentioned, and it is not possible for me to give the hon. member for Temiscouata a break-down of the cost of each publication. There is a considerable number of publications. Almost everyone, as the hon. member will appreciate, working on the preparation of a publication is also engaged in working on something else. Only a part of his time is given to the editorial work in connection with the preparation of a publication. A great many publications are produced in the office itself in mimeographed form, so that it is difficult to allocate the proportion of -the costs of stencils and mimeographing that is appropriate for each item. Those which are not produced in the office itself are produced largely in the office of the king's printer; we

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get costs from them ultimately and they can be allocated. If my hon. friend would indicate any particular items or publications in respect of which he would like to have the costs brought down I would be very glad indeed to get him the information.


Jean-François Pouliot: Would the parliamentary
assistant kindly give the list of all the publications that are not mimeographed and that are not published by the king's printer? I assume that some of them are published by other printers, and it is easy to ascertain the cost of each one. Would he also give a list of all those included in the $329,000 item; the names, the salaries and the travelling expenses of each one, and also their occupations? It may not be possible for him to give it to-night, and I would be satisfied if it were done at the earliest possible opportunity. It is a matter of great interest and should be published the * same as some returns were published. I remember that some returns asked for by the hon. member for Broadview were printed and distributed to all members of parliament and to members of the press gallery, and it is important for us to know who is receiving money under this item, how much each one receives, and what is being done by each one. This is a formidable amount of money for publicity.


John Ritchie MacNicol: You would not think
there was a war on.


Jean-François Pouliot: There are other ways to
publicize the deeds of our heroes and have them publicized beyond Canada. One has only not be be fearful, to be above criticism, to be sure of his facts and to lose no opportunity to bring before the world the importance of the Canadian war effort. Sometimes the method which is used may be regarded as unorthodox, but if the results are good there will be nothing to complain about.
For instance, during a broadcast from London Mr. Churchill mentioned the achievements of other countries, but without mentioning Canada. The matter was brought before the house by the hon. member for Temis-couata who received some letters that were written in an unfriendly spirit by people who live in this country and who have not the right to call themselves Canadians, while on the other hand he received from Great Britain letters that would put those people to shame. To show you, Mr. Chairman, what could be done to publicize the war effort of Canada without any cost to this country, I will read
two letters that I have received, one from Montreal and one from Birmingham, England. The one from Montreal is as follows:
6400 Prince Arthur St. West, Montreal,
April 1, 1944.
Hon. Mr. J. F. Pouliot (L. Temiscouata),
House of Commons, Ottawa.
Dear Sir: I have read with surprise an article published in to-day's Gazette under the caption "Pouliot Claims Canada Slighted by Churchill" and 'having reference to Mr. Churchill's broadcast of last Sunday.
Now sir, for you to assume that Mr. Churchill slighted Canada you are taking a lot on yourself and I suggest that his words and snub to those who have nothing better to do at a time like the present, than to belittle the government or to embarrass them in their mighty task, might wiifli equal meaning and truth apply to you. Mr. Churchill happened to be speaking about the Japanese area in particular and the deliverance of Australia by American, Australian and New Zealand troops in particular reference to the Pacific area.
Why is it that you and people like you are always wanting to be "patted on the back"? I am quite sure that Mr. Churchill never for one moment had the slightest intention of doing what you accuse him of-
I did not accuse Mr. Churchill at all.
-for he has repeatedly spoken of and expressed his admiration for the part Canada has and is playing in the war effort, by men, money and materials. Surely it is not necessary that he should repeat this on every broadcast he makes. Mr. Churchill is far too wise, too big and too generous a man to do anything in the way of slighting any of the allied nations, and I submit, sir, that you are "all wet" in thinking and speaking otherwise. I hope you will think twice before you again make such regrettable speeches about one who has been simply marvellous in carrying the supreme load in this war. He deserves the wholehearted support and thanks of every right-thinking person in the allied cause. Such remarks as those attributed to you, sir, are grossly unfair and uncalled for, and by such you certainly are not helping the cause of Canada in an "all-out war effort."
I submit that where the censor is really necessary at times is within the house, when speeches like that reported as coming from you are made.
Yours truly,
Hubert G. Harris.
This is a man who has not the Canadian spirit. Now I will read a letter received from Birmingham from a true Englishman, one who represents the feeling of the British nation and who is different from this Mr. Harris:
2/212 Heneage St.,
Mr. Pouliot.
Dear Sir: Please do not think me presumptuous. But do you know that I said to my wife when listening to Mr. Churchill's talk-
And mark you, sir, this comes from Birmingham, England.

Birmingham,
, England.



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-that I should have thought so great a man would never have forgotten so splendid and courageous an ally as the good old Canadians. Personally I served with some of the gallant C.F.A. in the last war. So you can understand that I felt rather hurt they not being even mentioned. Still perhaps we must believe that in his case he just overlooked them. It does seem strange that I should see your remarks in one of our local newspapers, namely, the Birmingham Evening Dispatch of April 1, 1944, under the heading of "Little Dispatches." Now, dear sir, I do hope this little [bit of news will find you quite well and if it is not asking of you too much, to ask you to give my every good wish to Canada, God bless the hoys.
Yours very sincerely,
Sidney H. Clark,
late of the Royal Scots.
This is a letter I prize very much. It is a letter which is written not by a bloke but by a true Englishman. It did not cost the country anything. I do not pretend I see behind what was said of Canada at Westminster, but on the other hand every little bit helps, and it is the duty of members of parliament to lose no opportunity to show to the whole world what our country is doing for them. This is one item that has cost nothing. There is no bill for it.
But there is something else. The wartime information board is losing track of fundamentals and in preaching unity it creates disunity. I will explain that to you, sir, and you will understand me very well. In the first place, there is a mentality that has been created by the wartime information board to the effect that if we have no conscription it is to maintain national unity, because Quebec would resent it. On the other hand, no opportunity is lost to repeat over the radio and to publish in writing what the Minister of Labour has said in reply to me in the house, that the duty of every able-bodied Canadian of military age is to join the forces, leaving aside the idea and the suggestion of the essentiality of war industry in this country. I complain bitterly that the wartime information board has not taught the English-speaking provinces outside Quebec that what is accomplished by all men in essential industry is just as vital to the war effort as what is being done by the soldiers, and that without their assistance the soldier could not go anywhere. Was that ever published by the wartime information board? Never. It was the duty of that board to tell the Canadian people what they had to think in order to have a common thought regarding the war. Instead of that, inspiration has come from jingoes and junkers who showed no charity toward the province of Quebec but left the English-speaking people of Canada under the false impression that the people of Quebec were not doing their duty.

That was a great mistake on the part of the wartime information board and I cannot conceive that all the gentlemen who are working there, 393 besides stenographers, did not understand it. The question is obvious. It is that . if we accept the views of those jingoes and junkers the ideal Canadian soldier will be one who will walk on the land without clothes, without shoes, without arms, without ammunition, walk to the shore, swim across the ocean, pick up some stones in Ireland and fight the Germans with them. That is the ideal soldier in the minds of the jingoes and junkers.
The wartime information board has been remiss in its duty in telling the Canadian people about the importance of the work of the farmer, the fisherman and the man who is engaged in railroad occupations, the importance of all those who manufacture arms and ammunition and those who build boats. All those men deserve well from their country.
In the view of the jingoes and junkers the only man who serves his country well is the man who volunteers. I have no objection at all to praising the soldiers and giving them their due. They are good men. Canadians are such good soldiers that they are considered the best of all, and as Lord Mottistone said four years ago, they are now the spearhead of the army; not only was that so in Italy but it is so in France to-day. The Canadians, after having liberated His Holiness the Pope will deliver France from the enemy. But if they did not have behind them the man who is engaged in an essential occupation, and if those who have accomplished so much in essential occupations were not paid by the Canadian citizens who do not work actually in an essential industry but accomplish the important task of being taxpayers, where would the Canadian army be now? That has to be said. The Canadian people, especially the English-speaking Canadians have to be told that, and who could tell them that better than the wartime information board? In the first place those who are on the board must understand it and, after having understood it, they should inform the people about it.
I complain of something else besides that. This is not a censorship board. The duty of the wartime information board is precisely to inform the Canadian people. How is it that the liaison officers of that board have infested the press gallery to prevent-my hon. friend is jumping in his seat. I will refer him to one who has been named by the hon. member for St. Paul's already. They were there to tell the newspaper men that it was their duty not to publish reports of what had been said in parliament, what the people of Canada had

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a right to know; and that has been done. They have sinned not only by omission but by commission. That was done.
In my view, sir, the best thing to do with this item is to reduce it to one dollar and give it to the poor, and then give some freedom to the press. If the reports of the Canadian Press and the British United Press were published integrally by the Canadian newspapers they would be well informed. If the reports that are written by the journalists to their papers for the information of the readers were published integrally we would not need the wartime information board. I have nothing against those people. They mean well; and I will not say that the accomplishment of the board was to try to work out some kind of political propaganda. I will not go as far as that, but I will say that they have contributed more than any other body to destroy Canadian feeling in the hearts of Canadian people; they have contributed more than any other body to cause national disunity in Canada, to represent the province of Quebec in false colours; and they never had the courage to tell the Canadian people the truth about the nobility and the essentiality of the work of the farmers, railwayman, fishermen, the man who makes ammunition, arms and so on. That has never been done. Is it too late? I do not know. It is never too late to do good. I may be told that I am not a good Canadian because I express my views sincerely in this chamber. But, sir, at election time the farmers will be praised on every husting. Why is it not done now from the broadcasting studios of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and the wartime information board? How is it that railwaymen are now considered as doing work that is not essential? They are told to join the army, even though they have had long railroad experience. They are told that by the wartime information board. That is to inform the Canadian people wrongly. That is what happens. We are coming to fundamentals. There are fundamentals that no one has the right to ignore, least of all the wartime information board. How long will it take to teach them fundamentals, to teach them the AJB.C.'s of national unity in Canada? After having led people in error, perhaps not always directly, but through insinuation, insinuation in which the province of Quebec was always the sufferer, why does the wartime information board not tell the Canadian people that the province of Quebec was high .up in the victory loan-in the victory loans, I should say-that the objective was attained there, to use Major Triquet's expression, sooner than anywhere else; that 100-226J
the French-Canadians of Quebec as well as their English-speaking fellow citizens are doing very well for the war effort. I could say the same thing of all those who belong to other races and who live in the province of Quebec. They are doing very well. Is it necessary for us to repeat it? I should not have to say that. It should have been said a long time ago by the wartime information board. It should not only have been said in this chamber but have been broadcast from ocean to ocean, so that no Canadian citizen, no Canadian woman, no Canadian child should ignore what has been done in the war by every part of this country.
Now, sir, that being said, I do not despair. I have said some truths, and I regret that the wartime information board until now has not come up to the standard we expected. It may improve; I hope it will, because there is plenty of room for progress.
My concluding words would be these. There is only one way to follow; that is the straight way. The duty of each board, whatever it is, under whatever minister, should not be to try to please or to displease; it should be to da what is right. What is essential in this country is national unity, but we shall attain it only if the same things are said to all parts of. Canada. I am opposed to special programmes-for the English-speaking provinces and other special programmes for the province of Quebec or over the French network. All French and English-speaking people, all Jews and all others in Canada should' be told the same thing. They should be told the truth about each other. When that is done we shall have national unity in Canada, and we shall realize that even, though there may be a handful of intriguers, in this country the mass of the people, whether English or French, are the very best.


Brooke Claxton: I think I should say something in reply to the hon. member for Broadview and the hon. member for Temiseouata. Thp fact that they agree on a point does not mean necessarily that the point is either right or wrong, though I must say it is helpful in coming to a conclusion.
The hon. member for Temiseouata made a number of remarks with which I think I should deal factually. He asked, why the wartime information board1 did not say that Quebec had done well in the war loan. The wartime information board does not give news to the public at first hand; that is done by the press of Canada. It is not part of the work of the wartime information board to take over any of; the work of the press, and the publicity for the national war loans is in the hands of the national war finance committee. While the
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wartime information, board ig glad to assist with secondary information, and to assist in seeing that information is given to the public, it does not issue the information about war loans in the first place. However, I think it will be found1 that the publications of the wartime information board in regard to the standing and contribution of Canadians to the war loans have done adequate justice to all parts of Canada including Quebec.
The hon. member spoke about the freedom of the press, and said how desirable it was that the press of Canada should be free. I think I can say in this house that the press of Canada is freer than the press of any other country in the world to-day. Never has the wartime information board either infested the press gallery, as suggested by my hon. friend, or done anything else in connection with the press except to help it in ways that the press desired. That is the function of the board.
Then the hon. member said that we had 396 'employees, not to speak of the stenographers. I do not know where he got the figure, but the number of employees of the wartime nforma-tion board is 157, including all the stenographers, office boys and everyone else.
The hon. member said that it was the duty of the board to assist in the education of the 'Canadian people and to tell them what to think. I deny, Mr. Chairman, that this is the duty of the board, or any other board, in a democratic country. Our people do not want to be told what to think. On the other hand it is the duty of the board to help the press and all other agencies that disseminate information throughout the country to give the people all the facts and all the information on which they can make up their own minds. That and nothing else is the function of the board. We have not done anything else; no one can say that we have done anything else; no one has brought forward a single fact or a single act that would support any such statement. The board is here to serve the people of Canada; it has no other duty. It serves them by giving them, principally through the agencies that deal directly with the public, all the facts and information on which people can make up their minds on the complicated questions as to which people have to make up their minds today. They are not easy questions, as we in this house know very well. It is our job in this house, as it is the job of the press, of the radio and, to some slight extent, of the wartime information board, to facilitate that process, but that is all the board can do. Let no one say that it is our job to tell the people what to think, because then we shall have lost this war.
{Mr. Claxton.]
Then the hon. member said that we had done nothing to make it clear that the jobs of the people back home, of the men working on the farms, of the men working in the factories, were just as vital as the job of the men fighting on the beacheads in France to-day. I deny that the job we are doing here in this parliament or in our factories or on our farms is just as vital as the job being done by those men who are offering their lives in France for our freedom to-day. I deny that. However, I do say that if you want a comprehensive picture of what the whole Canadian people are doing, either in the armed forces or on the farms or in the factories, look at "Canada at War" for March, or the French issue, "Le Canada en Guerre", and turn to pages 40 to 78. There you will find a picture of Canada at war at home. Pages 1 to 40 are devoted to Canada at war in the fighting services. If that is not a fair division of space in the sense desired by the hon. member for Temiscouata, I should like to know what is. If it errs on any side it does so in giving overemphasis to the fighting at home, but there are particular reasons for that. Statistically it requires more pages to picture the war at home and to break it down into significant figures.
Then the hon. member said that he wanted the names, occupations and salaries of the staff working for 'the wartime information board. Well, Mr. Chairman, 1 could take up the time of this committee by giving that information, if it were required; I have it here. There is no secret about it; it is available to any hon. member who wants to come and see it. However, all these details were given in a return brought down in the house on February 24. The information was complete up to that date, and I could go on from there and enlarge on it if the committee desired me to do so. I do not think hon. members would want me to take the time to do that, however; but if the hon. member for Temiscouata desires the facts and figures, he can get them either now or at any subsequent time.
The hon. gentleman also asked for particulars of any publications not placed through the king's printer. On inquiry I find that no publications are printed except through orders placed with the king's printer. In the case of a publication like this, "Canada at War", the king's printer obviously has to go outside the establishment on Sussex street because he has not a rotogravure press, but he lets that work in accordance wTith the ordinary practice, over which we have no control whatever. All the printed publications of the wartime information board are placed through the king's printer or printed by the king's printer.

War Appropriation-External Affairs
I thought the hon. member for Broadview made some rather helpful remarks. He suggested that we had not been doing a good enough job in informing the people of the United States as to Canada's war effort. The hon. member pointed out that we were failing in certain respects
Almost all the comments ever made with respect to the operations of the board can be categorized under two headings, either that we are not doing enough, or that we are engaging in political propaganda If one were to try to pick out the number of illustrations where any member has said that anything has been done wrong, he could number them on the fingers of one hand. He would not find more than five. The comment falls into one of two categories, either that we have not been doing enough, or that we are doing too much by way of teaching political propaganda.
In respect of not doing anything, I think all parties in the house at one time or another have expressed themselves to the effect that Canada should do more to make her war effort known, not only to the people of Canada but to the people of the United States, Great Britain, and those of other allied nations. All parties have said that, and the board has tried to carry out that idea. Within its resources I say it has done so, admirably. The hon. member for Broadview suggested that to-night.
If I might refer back to what happened in a previous session, I would direct the attention of the committee to a question asked by the hon. member for Parkdale on November 4, 1941. That question, as reported at page 4059 of Hansard of that year was as follows:
In view of the importance of having Canada's war effort more widely known in the United States than it is at present, will the Prime Minister tell the house whether it is the government's intention at an early date to establish a Canadian bureau of information in New York?
Then, in the debate last year the hon. member for Lake Centre said that "there is still room for greater endeavours in the furnishing of information to the United States."
We have endeavoured to carry out this injunction, and have had a great deal of support from the press and people of Canada, of the United States and of Great Britain. At this point may I pay tribute to the number of Americans who have voluntarily given their time and services, completely free, by way of radio programmes, moving pictures and personal appearances to help make the cause of Canada better known not only in the United States but in Canada.
Our wartime information, board is attacked on another count, namely, that of being an
instrument of government propaganda. That is the kind of charge made by every opposition in every democratic parliament-and I suppose it is quite natural that it should be made.
But in this instance no one has brought forward a single word, a single note or a single line of justification for the charge. They have been generalities-the kind of generalities which get headlines in the favourable press.
I should like to be perfectly frank with the committee. The facts and figures in connection with the operation of the wartime information board are open to any member. Any member who has gone to the general manager, Mr. A. D. Dunton, who has succeeded Mr. Grierson, has got any information he wanted. He can get anything he likes. The facts and figures are available to him, and to anyone else in a position of authority similar to that held by hon. members.
Men have come from the press to the office in Washington, the office in New York or the office in Ottawa. They have looked into the operations of the board and have ended up by saying, "How can we help? This is an important job." That is the kind of attitude I hope hon. members will take with regard to this activity. There has been no evidence or no statement to bear out the suggestion that there has been anything in the nature of political propaganda issued from the office of the wartime information board, from beginning to end. It issues hundreds of pages of material. It also makes arrangements with radio programmes, with editors and with writers. Hon members will have noticed a steady increase in the attention given to Canada in United States and British publications during the last two years. There has been a steady increase. I do not suggest that any one of those editors has been influenced jn any sense by the wartime information board. That would be quite improper. On the other hand I do suggest that those editors would not have had the material upon which they have based their articles, unless the wartime information board had helped them in a perfectly proper way.
Then, with regard to this charge of issuing propaganda may I call attention to the fact that the wartime information board is, in fact, a board. It is under the chairmanship of Mr. N. A. M. MacKenzie, president of the university of New Brunswick, who has now accepted a post as president of the university of British Columbia. The board consists chiefly of senior civil servants representing agencies which might be interested. That board would no more be a party to political propaganda than hon. members, who know
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the members of the board, would expect them to be. What their political affiliations are, nobody knows, so far as I am aware.
If one goes into the membership of the staff of the wartime information board he finds among the 147 members a number of experienced newspaper people and people of experience in other affairs. They are going to leave their occupations, as soon as the board ceases its work at the end of the war, and they are not going to jeopardize their future reputations by serving any political party.
/So that I submit there is not a word of evidence to support that contention. I believe everyone admits the work of the board has been useful. Most people say that its [DOT]operations should be extended. If there are .any errors or omissions, we shall be very glad ito correct them. But, above everything else, we would like to have the helpful cooperation [DOT]of all members of the house and the people of Canada at large in the carrying out of this useful work.


Joseph William Noseworthy: I had hoped that the parliamentary assistant would give a somewhat more complete account of what the board is doing to inform the people of Canada at home and in the armed forces, and the people of other countries, including those of the United States, regarding Canada's war effort. I believe that a statement of that kind, setting before the committee something in greater detail of what is being done by the board, would be a valuable piece of information, not only for the board itself but for members of the committee.
I have no reason to believe that there is any considerable body of criticism from any part of the press on the ground that the board is usurping the place of the press in Canada. I have never heard that criticism expressed to any extent. In many parts of the country, however, I have heard commendations from small-town editors when they have spoken of the assistance the board has given them in providing information which was not readily accessible in any other way, and which they could pass on to their readers.
If the facts are as set out by the hon. member for Broadview, so far as a lack of knowledge of Canada's war effort on the part of our neighbours to the south is concerned, then I would suggest that his statement offers the best possible argument hon. members could find in favour of an extension of the type of work the board is doing. The work of the board is of such a nature that, I think we must all agree, it is difficult to assess its
*Mr. Claxton.]
value in dollars and cents. The work of the board is like all educational work in that its value cannot be measured in terms of money. No one will question the need of keeping the Canadian people well informed. I am sure that none of us feels that there is the slightest danger of our people becoming too well informed because of the work the board is doing.
I would suggest to the parliamentary assistant, who spoke a moment ago of the members and staff of the board going back to their former jobs when the war is over, that there is a very great need for work such as this board can do in Canada after the war is over. There is a dire need of some organization that will interpret one part of Canada to other parts of Canada, or each part to other parts. Canada is a vast country and we have many different points of view and many different interests. There is just as great a lack of knowledge on the part of Canadians in one section of the country regarding Canadians living in other sections, as there is on the part of United States citizens about Canada as a whole. I , would suggest that the board consider the possibility of undertaking the task of interpreting Canadians in each part of Canada to Canadians in other parts.
I suggested a year ago that there is in this country the need of certain books that can be used in the schools of the country, books that will interpret to the students attending school in the English-speaking provinces the life of the people of Quebec, and books that can be used in the schools of Quebec to interpret to the school children there the ways of life of the people in other provinces. I am satisfied that it would do much to cement the unity of Canada, of which the hon. member for Temis-couata has been speaking so much, and I know of no better organization to do that work when the war ends than some such organization as the wartime information board. Any contribution which the board is making either to inform our own people here, or to inform Canadian boys and girls in the armed forces about Canada's effort in this war, about conditions in Canada at the present time, about what is happening in Canada, is all to the good. Anything that I have heard from those in the forces or from those overseas is that they get all too little information about Canada, that the more information this board can give Canadians in the armed forces about what is happening in Canada to-day, the better.
Certainly no one will doubt the necessity and the value of informing our neighbours to the south about Canada. Such work cannot be valued in monetary terms. It will be of immeasurable value not only during the war

War Appropriation-External Affairs
but when the war is over. It will help to create a much better understanding between this country, the United States and other countries. Even though we have to achieve that at the price of giving the Liberal government credit for some of the things which it is doing, nevertheless, I think it is well worth doing. I do not see how in time of war you can tell the Canadian people or inform other people of what Canada is doing without at the same time giving credit to the government which has the responsibility for carrying on the war effort. I do not see how that can be avoided. I do think the government is obviously getting a good deal of advertising through the wartime informaton board, but I can see no way in which that can be avoided unless you are going to keep our people uninformed, and I do not think we should undertake to keep our people uninformed just because by informing them we are at the same time giving credit to a government.
I believe that without going into the field of political propaganda, particularly in keeping the boys in the armed forces informed about what is happening in Canada, the board could very well give information regarding what is being done by other parties as well as what is being done by the Liberal party. I do not think it is necessary to go into the field of active political propaganda, but if you are going to inform particularly the boys in the armed forces, I am sure that they are just as anxious to know what the Progressive Conservatives, the C.C.F. and other political parties in which they are interested are doing as they are to know what the government is doing.
Certainly I have no hesitation in supporting this estimate, even though it is increased largely over last year. From any knowledge that I have of the wartime information board, I would say that they are doing valuable work in the field of education both in Canada and in other countries.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The parliamentary assistant came very close, when he was speaking a few moments ago, to discussing the matter which I touched on just before six o'clock, and which the hon. member for York South has touched on just now, but he really did not deal with the question. The parliamentary assistant made the statement that while there had been criticism of the wartime information board on the ground that it was putting out propaganda for the government, no one had given any definite evidence in support of that statement. As the parliamentary assistant knows, I am not one who made such a statement as that. In fact, I clearly dissociated myself from the indoor sport of criticizing the
board. However, I would remind him that I pointed out, as my colleague from York South has done just now, that boards such as this from the very nature of things find themselves putting out material, even though it is plain, ordinary factual material, which cannot help but redound to the credit of the party that happens to be in power.
* Mr. CLAXTON: In so far as their record is good.


Stanley Howard Knowles: If the hon. member will wait for a moment, I refer him to the series of mimeographed documents from the board which are coming to our desks right now dealing with post-war planning. As I said this afternoon, they are good. Every time one comes to my desk I send to the board for several additional copies because I know people who would like them. But I would remind the parliamentary assistant that with respect, for example, to post-war plans, all the plans the board has collected, though admittedly those of the government of the day, are the plans of one party, and I suggest that in giving out that information alone, the wartime information board is not fully informing the public as to what is going on in this country with respect to post-war planning. Not only the government but my hon. friends to the right, we in our group, and our hon. friends to the left are working out plans of a general nature with respect to the post-war period, and plans for the demobilization and rehabilitation of the members of the forces. It seems to me that, just from the point of view of giving informative material, the wartime information board should be collecting and making available this other information as well. I know that when I discussed the matter this afternoon it somehow got under the skin of the hon. member for York-Sunbury. To him it seemed like asking the wartime information board to use public money to put out political propaganda. Well, when one speaks of "political propaganda" in that tone of voice I agree with him, and the Prime Minister, and the parliamentary assistant, in saying that public money should not be used for that purpose; let there be no mistake about that. But there is all the difference in the world between political propaganda of the kind which is put out in an attempt to run down some other party and nothing more, and the straightforward1 presentation by responsible political parties of their platforms and of the things for which they stand.
Speaking again under the two headings, material for our people here at home, and material for the armed forces, I feel that the wartime information board is not doing its
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full job unless it collects for both groups the material of the various political parties who are trying to make their contribution to the advancement of Canadian life at this time. The parliamentary assistant, or the Prime Minister, who spoke on this matter for a moment or two about six o'clock, can point out that there is nothing political in what the board is putting out, that all the wartime information board is giving is a straight statement of facts as to what the government is doing. That is true, but from the very nature of the case it appears to redound to the credit of one party. I am not worried about that. So far as our group is concerned, as hon. members know, we spend a great deal of effort and energy and as much money as we can collect in putting out our own literature. I am not concerned about ourselves, but I am concerned about the wartime information board doing a proper job with public money and getting full and complete information to our people in this country and the members of the armed forces.
Despite what the parliamentary assistant has already said on this particular question tonight, I hope he will reconsider it. I hope he will believe me when I tell him that there is a difference between partisan political propaganda such as the hon. member for York-Sunbury denounced, and a straightforward presentation of political programmes such as I am asking for. I hope that when this debate is over, members of the board, the non-partisan gentlemen whom he has described, in their next meeting will give this matter consideration and see whether there is not room in these mimeographed documents, in "Canadian Affairs", and in "Canada Digest", on the basis of supplying straight factual material, to give something of what other political parties are doing at the present time in their efforts, along with the Liberal party, which happens to be the government of the day, to make a contribution to the advancement of Canadian life.


Mr. DORION:: I hold in my hand a publication called "Labour Facts". What is the circulation of this publication, and to whom is it distributed?


Brooke Claxton: That was dealt with at some length before the dinner recess. The publication is largely intended for distribution to editors of labour journals, to trades union officials, and to industrial leaders. It was originated in consequence of repeated requests that information of this kind be collected together in this kind of sheet, and it goes to that limited circulation for their purposes. So far the response, as I indicated to the

committee before the dinner recess, has been extraordinarily favourable. I read to the committee a letter from Mr. A. R. Mosher, President of the Canadian Congress of Labour. I could have also reac} letters from the trades and labour congress officials, from members of the Canadian Manufacturers' Association, the Catholic syndicates, and other organizations, all expressing the utmost approval of this publication. I have a large file here, and if the committee want it I can take time to read it to them.


Frédéric Dorion: Who is the editor of this publication?


Brooke Claxton: The editor is Mr. Petegorsky.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Advisory committee on reconstruction, $25,435.
John Ritchie MacNicol: This vote is so insignificant in comparison with the item which has just been earned that I should like a lot of further information. I said nothing on the previous vote because I had not anything particular to say. I felt that the wartime information board had done under the circumstances a pretty fair job. Perhaps it could be better; perhaps it could be worse. But comparing the two votes, I cannot see why this one is so very small. We are going to win the war; I have not any doubt about that; but we have also to win the -peace. This vote refers to a committee on reconstruction. It will not be able to do very much on $25,000. What is it doing? As far as I know there are four different committees concerned with this subject, or three in addition to the parliamentary committee. The parliamentary committee has had before it many capable delegations and witnesses, and the chairman has sent to the house a statement, in my judgment of very great value, of what can be done to win the peace through rehabilitation and reconstruction. But this vote does not apply to the parliamentary committee, for as far as I know that committee has incurred little expenses, unless perhaps in bringing the odd witness from out of town. What has this committee done? Has it made any plans, and, if so, how could it make them for $25,000? Plans for work call for the services of engineers and surveyors, men qualified to prepare them, and others who are competent to make specifications, blueprints and details. Has this body done anything like that? If not, what has it done? I have read, of course, newspaper speeches here and there, but they do no-t mean a thing unless the plans and specifications of the jobs and the programmes which are to be carried out are

War Appropriation-External Affairs
prepared. Has this committee arranged for any such plans, specifications or programmes? If so, as far as I know they have not been tabled in the house.
One of the ministers said that plans and specifications were ready for programmes, while another minister said that plans and specifications for programmes are perhaps not necessary. I forget the exact words. Well, what has this committee prepared for postwar rehabilitation? The vote is a small one and I am not opposing it, but I want to know what the committee has been doing and what is ready. Few in this house have travelled in Canada more than I have in the last two or three years and I have not heard anywhere of anything being ready. If there is anything ready, why would every one of the provinces be setting up rehabilitation machinery of their own and going to a lot of expense. Ontario has set up a department and it is travelling around this country and the United States. What has this committee being doing? What has it really prepared, and what is actually ready which will give one man a job after the war?


Brooke Claxton: As hon. members know, the hon. member for Davenport has taken a keen interest in the work of rehabilitation and seeing that we are ready for the post-war situation. This vote is reduced from $47,250 last year to $25,435.08 this year. The difference is on account of the fact that the James advisory committee on reconstruction has concluded its work, been thanked by the government and passed out of existence. All its reports, including the reports of subcommittees, have been printed except the report of the subcommittee on housing, which should be printed in the next two weeks. The economic advisory committee to which this vote refers has since 1939 been advising the government on questions of economic policy. Since 1940 it has been advising the government on policies relative to reconstruction and full employment. That committee is still in existence and actively at work. It has a limited number of full-time people engaged by the committee itself on this work, but very largely it consists of senior civil servants and people drawn from other departments and paid by those other departments. That explains the fact that the vote is so small. A large proportion of the people working for the committee are paid by their permanent departments. I can give this committee the membership of the committee, but it is on the records available. The committee is advising the government on economic policy, particularly with reference to reconstruction.
iOO-227
The hon. member for Davenport asks, has it a single work ready? The answer is that that committee has not; that is not its function. That committee is advising the government on the kind of economic policies necessary to see that all the people of Canada, whether employed in industry or in farming or in the professions or other occupations, shall have the best possible opportunity of full employment after the war, and it is engaged in planning at that level. In addition, that committee has appointed a subcommittee and one or two officers who are endeavouring to coordinate all the planning of public works that is being carried on-and it is being carried on-by the government departments themselves on postwar works and projects, which is quite a different thing, though it is the kind of thing the hon. member for Davenport has particularly mentioned. These plans and projects for public works are being prepared and coordinated and the information with regard to them is being collected through that committee, so that the committee ties in to that work of planning post-war works and projects to be conducted by the federal government as part of its public works, although the committee is not charged with responsibility for carrying out these works itself. The works would be carried out by the departments concerned, such as the Department of Public Works, the Department of Fisheries, or the Department of Mines and Resources, or by some agency set up by them or by the provinces or by the municipalities, depending upon the arrangements to be worked out. The committee is endeavouring to collect and coordinate information on planning done in that field. I should answer my hon. friend in all frankness that the primary purpose of the committee is not to plan actual blueprints for any work but to advise the government on general policies with regard to reconstruction so as to bring about a maximum employment, maximum income and maximum security for the Canadian people.
Mr. MacNlOOL: I hope I did not say anything that in any way reflected on what the committee has done. I was under the impression when the committee was set up that it was to make preparations for after-war rehabilitation, to win the peace as well as the war, which is being won by the military. I have searched diligently and carefully, and I have inquired just as diligently, to find out if there is anything ready. I have said, and I do not hesitate to say again, that I remember distinctly what 'happened at the end of the last war. If there were any committees at that time preparing anything, I do not know, but if there were committees following the

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last war, the fact is that there was nothing but chaos in regard to employment, I should not blame the government of that day because they had no experience to guide tihem. But this government has. It has the experience of the disastrous situation that followed the last war, and I have hoped right along, since the government set up three or four different committees, that something definite will be done in advance. Among those committees is the parliamentary committee, which I know has done good work. It has no authority and I doubt very much whether attention has been paid to any recommendations made.


Brooke Claxton: Most of them have been carried out.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The intention is to set up a department of reconstruction and I agree with that. I believe that much good will come of a competent body headed by someone who is thoroughly qualified. We should have an able head of the reconstruction department. If we have, I look forward to its doing a good job. I may infer that the information gathered by this advisory committee to which the parliamentary assistant has referred will be turned over to the department of reconstruction rather than to mines and resources, although mines and resources has an opportunity to do much good work also. I want to feel that every member is sincere and earnest in seeing to it that the men who come back from this war will not have to go through what the boys went through who came back from the last war-not in a country where there are millions of opportunities. All we need to do is to get men who are big enough, who are thoroughly qualified and who understand the problems involved and can make the necessary lay-out. The parliamentary assistant has said that this vote is small because the particular committee is being wound up. I suppose we can only hope that the information it has compiled will be put in the hands of someone who will see to it that a programme is prepared against the day when the war ends. I am one of those who believe that it will end sooner than a good many people think. I have that much confidence in those who are running the war on our side. It may collapse earlier than we anticipate. I hope it does because, the sooner it does, the sooner will our gallant men come back and have a chance to build up the country. I hope everything will be ready for them to set to work and earn a living for themselves.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Sundry services, $108,000.
Item agreed to.
The CHAIRMAN:: Shall I report the resolution?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Before you , report the
resolution and in order to keep the record clear, may I ask if there are not some items at the bottom of page 400 of Hansard that have not been called? There are items there totalling $30,539,460. I am subject to correction on this, but I do not recall those items having been called by the Chairman. They are in the nature of loans, but still they are included in the total of $3,650,000,000, which is the amount of the war appropriation resolution.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: These items were taken up by the Department of Transport. My information is we have now gone through every item of the war appropriation resolution. Is it the pleasure of the committee that I should report the resolution?


Jean-François Pouliot: Before the resolution is
reported I want to put in a frame statements that were made just a minute ago by the parliamentary assistant to the President of the Privy Council. I took a note of it and I want to read it. This is what he said:
I deny that the job that we are doing here in this parliament or in our factories or on our farms is just as vital as the job being done by those people who are offering their lives for our freedom to-day.
My contention is that the soldiers could not go anywhere if they had not ihe help of those who work in industry or on the farm. The hon. gentleman said that our people do not want to be told what to think, which is true. He said that the duty of the board is to give all the facts, which is also true; but I now know the source from which the board gets its inspiration. I put it on Hansard so that the Prime Minister may see it and realize the jaux pas that his parliamentary assistant made to-night.
Resolutions reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Ilsley thereupon moved for leave to introduce bill No. 132, for granting to His Majesty aid for national defence and security.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Would the house give
unanimous consent to second reading now?


Grote Stirling: I think it would be better to have it stand until the next sitting. It would be well for the members to have an opportunity of seeing the bill.


James Lorimer Ilsley: It is in the same form as
last year, exactly.

Aeronautics Act



AERONAUTICS ACT


[Stage Direction]
Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Munitions and Supply) moved that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Aeronautics Act to provide for the establishment of an air transport board to perform the functions of a licensing and regulatory -body in respect of commercial air services and to advise the minister on matters connected therewith. Provision will be made by the said measure for the payment for services of the members of the board and the employment of necessary officers, clerks and employees.
Grote Stirling: Does the minister propose making a statement before going into committee or when we are in committee?


Mr. HOWE:: I shall be glad to make a short statement on going into committee, but I think it would be more useful if I make my main statement when the hon. members have the bill before them.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Bradette in the chair.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The bill before the committee amends the Aeronautics Act of 1922 in order to give effect to the government's announced policy on domestic civil aviation. The discussion on that subject a few weeks ago covered the government's intention in that regard, and this amendment to the Aeronautics Act puts into force the policy announced at that time.
The effect of the amendments is to form a board of three, a chairman and two members, who will administer the Aeronautics Act, take over the duties now being performed by the board cf transport commissioners in regulating civil aviation as well as the duty of assigning air worthiness certificates and of licensing aviation enterprises within Canada. In addition, the board will function to advise the government as to ways and means of advancing civil aviation. The board will take the initiative in laying out routes, within Canada and overseas, which promise possibilities of profitable operation and will guide the government in seeing that these routes are operated by Canadians who are capable of carrying out such undertakings.
The judicial functions of the board are not new, but the functions of the board as advisers to the government on aviation policy are new, and will, I think, be helpful in bringing about the rapid development of civil aviation, both internal and external.
In general, the act follows the provisions of the Aeronautics Act of the United States. The functions of this board will be similar to
the functions of the civil aeronautics authority of the United States. I think detailed discussion should await second reading of the bill, when we shall have the amendments in detail before us, and when a more complete discussion of the purpose of the bill and the means of effecting that purpose can be arranged. In the meantime I shall be glad to answer any questions on the subject matter of the resolution that hon. members may wish to ask.


Mr. GREEN:: The Aeronautics Act was passed in 1919 and amended in 1922?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: And has not been touched since. In that act the Minister of National Defence is named as the minister in charge. I believe that when the transport board was set up it was given quite wide powers over air transportation in Canada, despite the terms of the Aeronautics Act. Will the minister explain whether now one minister is to administer the Aeronautics Act, or whether there are to be two, one dealing with civil aviation and the other with military aviation, because, as it now reads, this act would seem to cover both military planes and passenger and freight planes.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The Department of Transport Act, 1936, transferred the control of civil aviation from the Minister of National Defence to the Minister of Transport, and since 1936 the Minister of Transport has been the minister named in the act. Military aviation is an entirely separate branch; it has its own airworthiness standards and its own regulations governing military operations.


Howard Charles Green: But it comes under the Aeronautics Act, does it not?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No; it comes now under the regulations of the Department of National Defence for Air. Only civil planes come under the civil Aeronautics Act.


Grote Stirling: But the Aeronautics Act has not been amended yet; it must have been put in abeyance.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The act has been amended several times since 1919, but I will speak only of the practice. I have been administering the act since 1936, and I can say that the Minister of Transport has no jurisdiction over military planes, which come entirely under the jurisdiction of the Minister of National Defence. In the amendments proposed, _the minister means the Minister of Transport except for military matters, in which event the minister means the Minister of National Defence. Section 5 of the Department of Transport Act, 1936, reads:
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The control and supervision of the civil aviation branch of the Department of National Defence is hereby transferred from the Minister of National Defence to the Minister of Trans. port, and the said branch is hereby transferred from the Department of National Defence to the Department of Transport.


Howard Charles Green: Then is the Minister of Transport to be the minister in charge under the Aeronautics Act as it is to be amended?


Clarence Decatur Howe: A situation exists there which I have explained in the house once or twice already. When I was transferred from the ministry of transport to the ministry of munitions and supply, by arrangement with the then Minister of Transport and by direction of the Prime Minister, and by the exercise of the Transfer of Duties Act, the air services branch of the Department of Transport was transferred for administration to the Minister [DOT]of Munitions and Supply. That was done [DOT]because one of the important duties of the ministry of munitions and supply at that time was the building of airports. The air services branch of the Department of Transport had developed a highly skilled engineering personnel for the building of airports, and it was my feeling that the Department of Munitions and Supply should not be required to duplicate that personnel. It was and is the duty of the Minister of Munitions and Supply to construct the airports required by the armed services, and the practical way of bringing about an organization to do such work seemed to be to transfer the air services branch of the Department of Transport to the new ministry. Therefore the air sendees branch is administered at the present time by the Minister of Munitions and Supply.


Howard Charles Green: Who will be administering the new act?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The Minister of Munitions and Supply, until the Transfer of Duties Act is again called upon to move it back to the *department from which it came.


Howard Charles Green: Why is it necessary to go back to the Aeronautics Act and give the minister, who apparently now will be the Minister of Munitions and Supply, the very wide powers contained in that act? They are veiy much wider than the powers given to the transport board, as the minister knows. Why was it necessary to give such veiy wide powers as are contained in the Aeronautics Act?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The powers contained in the Aeronautics Act are those required for the [DOT]control of civil aviation. The Department of Transport only exercised certain regulatory functions, but the Aeronautics Act covers a
[Mr Howe.]
great many matters that are not at present within the purview of the board of transport commissioners. That board is a judicial body, which simply interprets legislation, and does not initiate projects. It acts as a judicial body in connection with air matters.


Howard Charles Green: Are the powers under the Aeronautics Act to be reduced?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Howard Charles Green: The minister himself will have all the powers that are at present contained in the Aeronautics Act?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: Some of those powers are set out in section 3, which states:
It shall >be the duty of the minister
(a)	to supervise all matters connected with aeronautics;
(b)	to study the development of aeronautics in Canada and in other countries, and to undertake such technical research as may be requisite for the development of aeronautics, and to cooperate with other institutions in carrying out such research;
(c)	to construct and maintain all government aerodromes and air stations, including all plant, machinery and buildings necessary for their efficient equipment and upkeep;
(d)	to control and manage all aircraft and equipment necessary for the conduct of any of His Majesty's services;-
That would be wide enough, of course, to include the post office or any other service.
(e)	to operate such services as the governor in council may approve;
(f)	to prescribe aerial routes;
(g)	to cooperate with other officers of His Majesty, and to assist in the carrying out of any services under their jurisdiction which may require aerial work of any nature, and to collaborate with the officers employed in existing air services of His Majesty in such extension of their present work as the development of aeronautics may require;
(h)	to take such action as may be necessary to secure, by international regulation or otherwise, the rights of His Majesty in respect of his government of Canada in international air routes;-
Then we come down to paragraph (k), which reads:
(k) to investigate, examine and report on all proposals for the institution of commercial air services within or partly within Canada or the limits of the territorial waters of Canada.
I understand that all these powers are to be given the minister?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is correct.


Howard Charles Green: Is it the intention to have Trans-Canada Air Lines operated by the government under this act? As I see it, Trans-Canada Air Lines can be operated by the minister direct; that is what it amounts to.

Aeronautics Act


Clarence Decatur Howe: Trans-Canada Air Lines has its own act. It operates under the Trans-Canada Air Lines Act. Its operations are subject to the regulations of the Aeronautics Act, just as the operations of any other service are subject to the Aeronautics Act.


Mr. HOMUTH:: Which takes precedence?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is provided for by the amendment. The Trans-Canada Air Lines Act provides for management for the Trans-Canada Air Lines. It also provides the manner in which it shall be assigned routes, and the limits governing its operation. I assume that the minister, under the Aeronautics Act, will confine his attention to such matters as are not covered by the Trans-Canada Air Lines Act.


Howard Charles Green: Then the situation will be that the Trans-Canada Air Lines will no longer be operated by Canadian National Railways, but will come under and be operated directly by the government.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, not at all. The only difference will be that the directors of Trans-Canada Air Lines will not be directors of the Canadian National Railways. It will be operated by a board of directors, just as the Canadian National Railways is operated by a board of directors. But the two will not be operated by the same board of directors.


Howard Charles Green: Will the board of Trans-
Canada Air Lines be civil servants?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Howard Charles Green: Or outsiders?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, outsiders.


Howard Charles Green: But they will be very directly under the minister?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No more so than the board of directors of the Canadian National Railways.


Howard Charles Green: But if it is administered under this act it will be very directly under the minister. In effect, it makes the minister a dictator in respect of all the airways in Canada, does it not?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Perhaps so; but who would you
suggest should be dictator?


Howard Charles Green: I do not think there should be a dictator, myself.


Thomas Langton Church: This resolution is presented to the committee in a very awkward fashion. In the first place, the minister is to create a board just for the purpose of licensing and regulating. The present Minister of Munitions and Supply was formerly Minister of Transport. I very well remember when a board
such as he now proposes to appoint in respect of commercial aviation in Canada was appointed to regulate railways. In the first place the Board of Railway Commissioners for Canada was set up. The organization is now known as the board of transport commissioners. At that time it was limited to railway rates. We have seen what it did with this country. That board did not regulate anything. It was a political board, and there was afterwards added to it control over express,, telephone companies and all that kind of thing. It was given wide jurisdiction.
I have looked into the original Aeronautics Act the minister now proposes to amend. This parliament will run into all kinds of damage suits if it proceeds with this measure, because I believe the amendment proposed to the statute law, as now suggested by the Minister of Munitions and Supply, is ultra vires of this parliament, and is confiscatory since bonds were sold of one aviation company. I should like to find out what the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada has had to say about this. Was he consulted in respect of this amendment? Or was this matter looked into by the lawyers for. Trans-Canada Air Lines-the minister's own lawyers? Were they, the legal people who drafted this resolution,, which proposes an amendment?
I protest against the measure. We are now in the seventy-second day of the session. It is hopeless for the minister to think he can have an act of parliament passed through like this, one which upsets the whole policy of the country in regard to civil aviation. The proposal for civil aviation would involve millions of dollars, and it will interfere with the rights, the functions, the statutory privileges and property rights of two other large railway corporations. It is practically confiscatory. That is my opinion with respect to the proposed bill to set up the board.
Why does a minister of the crown need a board to advise him as to the way to arrange licences and regulations? Is a minister of the crown not responsible to parliament?' Under our parliamentary system of government, is he not responsible to the country? Is he not responsible to the people for the very large expenditures which are to be made? This is a leap in the dark. This whole programme and policy of civil aviation proposed by the minister, and this regulatory board',, do not commend themselves to the wisdom and judgment of the people of Canada.
We had a long debate on this matter only a month ago. Now we have before us a resolution, to be followed by a bill. I do not believe parliament has power to pass such legislation in its present form. If we do, we shall get

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into all kinds of trouble, because we cannot have what we call freedom of the air under a regulatory body such as this. Here we have a minister of the crown, asking parliament to pass a resolution on which a bill is to be founded setting up a regulatory board, which will also advise on licences, with powers which no minister of the crown can have, .under our constitution.
Not only is this wrong, from the point of view of law, but it is bad public policy. This was never attempted before. A board is to be set up, and it is to have supervision over a minister of the crown in respect of the expenditure of money allocated to his department. It will have power over functions which he would have, under our constitution. We are taking a leap in the dark. It will lead to all kinds of trouble. Certainly it is not in the interests of civil aviation. I believe it will sound the death knell of civil aviation.
More than a year has passed since April 2, 1943, and in that time nothing has been done. To-day a report was withdrawn by the hon. member for St. Boniface, as chairman of the select committee on railways and shipping. They went into matters connected with Trans-*Canada Air Lines and the policy herein of the minister. An inquiry was conducted, and questions were asked. I was surprised to note what was done this afternoon. We saw that the -report of the committee was presented; as a matter of fact it was presented last Friday. There was reference made in that report to the policy contained in this resolution, namely, that of civil aviation. There was further reference to licensing, and all that kind of thing.
Then the chairman of the committee rose in his place this afternoon and, all of a sudden, withdrew his report. What was his reason for doing that? Because the report would have to be discussed' before this resolution could come up. Under the rules of the house with respect to anticipation it could not be accepted, when this resolution was to be introduced, and when there was to be a discussion as to the setting up of a regulatory body with powers to issue licences, and all that kind of thing.
I must confess I cannot understand it, and I never saw that procedure before. The committee was to go over these expenditures of the Canadian National Railways, and affiliated bodies, including Trans-Canada Air Lines. It did that. Witnesses were examined, and there was a good deal of the hallelujah chorus in the committee about what a wonderful system they had. Yet when one of our own ministers wanted to go across to the continent we had to go to Washington and get a Liberator.
(Mr. Church.]
Civil aviation is only in its infancy in Canada. I have been before the board of railway commissioners many times in the past and also before the beard of transport commissioners. I have appeared in connection with telephone rates, freight rates, passenger rates and express rates. They never regulate anything. The applicant always gets what he asks for, with interest. And this particular board will be nothing but a board of moonshine. It will appoint a lot of officers and servants and agents and other people-to do what?-to help strangle the movement. I hope the committee will stop, look and listen before the minister is permitted to make this step. I can say this: I really believe he is wrong. He is wrong in policy; he is wrong in principle; he is wrong in the law. It is going to mean confiscatory legislation with respect to a very fine transportation company which has borne the burden and heat of the day. As I said a month ago when this matter was up, I think it should be sent to a committee of the house where the minister's policy could be thoroughly considered and everybody concerned given a hearing.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: 
Clarence Decatur Howe: If I might answer that point, we are doing in connection with aviation exactly what the private radio stations have been asking the government to do in connection wtih control of the air waves. The private stations object to the C.B.C. operating a chain of radio stations and at the same time controlling the private industry. I might point out that the board we are discussing to-night is not an operating board. Trans-Canada Air Lines has an operating board, but it has no regulative authority, and is itself subject to the regulations of the aeronautics board. This is exactly the situation which the private radio stations have been seeking in connection with the air waves.
I am getting attacked from various angles to-night. The hon. member for Vancouver South claims that the minister has too much authority, and the hon. member for Broadview suggests that the minister is divesting himself of his authority in favour of the board. I think this amendment involves no great change in governmental responsibility for the administration of aviation in Canada.


Gordon Graydon: I am afraid that there is.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No change whatever.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I agree with the statement which the minister made when this resolution first reached the committee stage, to the effect that we could discuss the subject much better when the bill is before us. I rose to ask him just one question, but now that I am on my feet it might not be out of place for me to come to his defence a little because he is being attacked by our hon. friends to my right and he does not seem to have many supporters to help him out.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: You both need a lot of them.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The minister and I frequently disagree in matters of policy, and even with respect to this bill there are tome criticisms which I expect to be making. But in the main I feel that the minister and the government are moving in the right direction when they seek to establish public control over so important a phase of our national life to-day as civil aviation.


Thomas Reid: Now I am beginning to suspect the legislation.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I hope that my support of the measure will not be responsible for its being defeated by the minister's own supporters. At any rate, I repeat that every step that is taken by any government to establish public control over a matter so important as aviation will have our unqualified support. A few minutes ago when this feature of the bill was being revealed, one hon. member to my right suggested that it would mean a government monopoly, and I think he even used the word "dictatorship." I resent that language being used as descriptive of public control. In this day and age there are many instances of concentration of power.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: And many concentration camps.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The minister realizes, in introducing this bill, that in certain instances where there is a concentration of power there is only one thing to do, namely, to place that power in the hands of the people, and in the sense in which this bill proposes to do that with respect to civil aviation it has our support.


Thomas Reid: If you lived in British Columbia you would not be so keen on public control.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Does the hon. member not support this measure?


Thomas Reid: I do not know yet; I am not sure. I have an open mind.


Stanley Howard Knowles: There have not been many Liberal supporters of this measure, and that is why we come to the assistance of the minister.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Actually I do not think
he appreciates it.


Stanley Howard Knowles: We shall be able to discuss the various points when the bill is before us, but I have one question. The minister stated earlier this evening that the board to be set up would in some respects be similar to the United States civil aeronautics board. He referred to the act under which that board functions when he spoke on this subject on March 17 of this year, and referred to the fact that the United States civil aeronautics act-I am looking at page 1573 of Hansard- provides that no common carrier (that is, surface carrier) shall own, manage, or operate any air carrier. He made that reference immediately after pointing out that it was the intention of the government to provide that the railways should divest themselves of ownership of airlines. May I ask him whether he can indicate at this time that this bill will give effect to that principle particularly with respect to the proposed divorce between the Canadian Pacific Railway Company and Canadian Pacific Air Lines?
Aeronautics Act


Clarence Decatur Howe: The bill provides that there shall be no common ownership of surface carriers and air carriers.


Howard Charles Green: In what way is the new board, the air transport board, subject to the minister? What is the tie between the minister and the air transport board?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The minister is responsible for the administration of civil aviation in Canada. The board has certain judicial functions in its own right, and can decide certain judicial matters.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Would their judicial functions be within the control of the minister, or separate from the minister?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The judicial functions are
directly under the control of the board, except that in certain cases there is an appeal to the minister. But the government is not attempting to divest itself of its responsibility for administering civil aviation. The government's experience, and my own, are wholly against an attempt of that sort. We had a perfect example of that in 1932, when the Conservative government of that day undertook to divest itself of responsibility for the administration of the Canadian National Railways. It set up a trusteeship of three men to administer the property, and by 1936, when the trusteeship was dissolved, it needed about one or two more years to make it a trusteeship in bankruptcy. The road was rapidly heading that way. The government at that time again assumed its responsibilities for the railway, and the-


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Was that not a condition of the times rather than a condition of the set-up?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Perhaps each contributed.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: It is not a comparison.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I could mention, if I were
not getting fairly close to home, other examples where a government has tried to divest itself of responsibility, without success to the government or prosperity to the object.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: We might go near home
on that, eh?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. So that we shall not discuss that. Nevertheless this government believes in government responsibility for government operations, and the amendments proposed to the act are not inconsistent with that belief.


Howard Charles Green: In other words, the air
transport board is to be directly under the minister?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Correct.


Howard Charles Green: The minister said that that, as I understand it, was not the position of the board of transport commissioners.
' Mr. HOWE:	That is correct, yes. The
board of transport commissioners is a judicial body equivalent to a court, and its duty is to administer an act. That board has no function beyond the administration of the act -a wholly judicial function. This is a board which is both judicial and advisory.


Howard Charles Green: In other words, the board
of transport commissioners had to decide whether an applicant for a licence should get the licence, on certain well-defined principles, which might be summed up as public convenience and necessity, and it had also to follow certain judicial principles in deciding what tolls would be charged.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is right.


Howard Charles Green: As I understand it, this new transport board .will no longer be subject to-those stipulations; it will no longer have to-decide on the basis of public convenience and necessity whether or not a licence should be granted?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The jurisdiction is set out in-the bill. I think if my hon. friend will delay this discussion until he sees the bill he will' find that his fears in that regard are unnecessary.


Howard Charles Green: But in effect now the minister is over and above that air transport board?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Not in judicial matters.


Howard Charles Green: While he was not over and
above the board of transport commissioners? Is that not so?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I might point out that the
board has two sets of functions. One is purely judicial; that is, when deciding matters of fact the board will be governed by the act; in that case the minister has no right to overrule them, except in the event of an appeal.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: If I may interrupt, that is what I wanted to ask the minister. After the board has ruled on a judicial matter, is there a right of appeal to the minister or to some other body?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is the right of appeal to the minister on certain matters, not all matters, but certain matters where there is an element of judgment as well as an element of judicial decision in interpreting the law. In i certain limited matters there is provision for an appeal to the minister. Ordinarily, in

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judicial matters the board is bound by the
act and its decision is final. However, the board will also initiate air projects. The j board of transport commissioners is not an initiating board. This board can initiate plans, and present them to the government for execution, and that, I anticipate, will be a very important part of the work of the board. That is the purpose in having a board whose interest is entirely that of aviation, and whose important task will be to develop ; for Canada a well thought out, well conceived system of aviation.


Howard Charles Green: Would it not be wise to maintain some board that did act in a judicial manner-


Clarence Decatur Howe: This board does. I have explained that point several times.


Howard Charles Green: -and let perhaps some department of government do the advising and : initiating, rather than try to make the board sit on both sides of the fence at once? It does not seem to me as though those two functions can be carried opt by the one body. The minister may be able to solve that in some way or another. How does he propose to get around that difficulty?


Grote Stirling: Has not the board of transport now got those two functions?
1 Mr. GREEN: No. The board of transport commissioners has far more independence in 1 deciding on applications than this air trans' port board will have.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I will agree that the board of transport commissioners is an entirely independent body, but I point out that its duty is wholly negative. It initiates nothing. If an application comes before the board, it determines whether the application complies with the Transport Act, or whether it does not. If such application does comply with the act it is approved; if it does not it is rejected. I point out that this new board has judicial functions in a similar way.


Howard Charles Green: On the same principles as are set out in the Transport Act?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The hon. member had better wait for the bill to determine that. The principles are set out in the bill. They are varied in some particulars. The new board also has the function of attempting to build as well as J to regulate. Civil aviation in the United States, which is more highly developed than in any other country, has been developed by a board of this type, and, I believe, developed admirably. I think that by and large the air transport system of the United States is a very successful development, and that its
civil aeronautics authority has contributed much toward that fortunate situation. I believe it is a model -which Canada can very well follow.


Howard Charles Green: Of course, there the government does not operate the air lines, does it?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Trans-Canada Air Lines is just another air line as far as the air transport board is concerned. There is no connection between the two, except that the air transport board has regulatory functions over Trans-Canada Air Lines.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Over the CJP.R.?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Over every air line and every plane that carries passengers.


Howard Charles Green: The Trans-Canada Air Lines will now be more directly under the board than before.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Not at all.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: It is not in the same position as the United States, and it is in the same position as radio in Canada to-day. The board has not at all the same functions as the board of transport commissioners. The board of transport commissioners have decisions to make as between the government-owned railways and the privately-owned railways and all the way through, as to whether the privately-owned railways should put a line in a certain place or whether it should be done by the government-owned1 railways. This board will not have any judicial function at all; and wherever privately-owned air lines are concerned, where they start to interfere with Trans-Canada Air Lines, the board will decide against the privately-owned air lines and in favour of the government-owned lines. That is, it will be in the position of player and referee at the same time.


Thomas Reid: When this act is in operation, would a company, say in British Columbia, whose intention it would be to fly entirely within the province and not outside it, be compelled, before doing so, to come before this board for a licence?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Thomas Reid: Then I think the committee should be very careful about this bill, because the experience we have had in British Columbia, in coming to Ottawa before the railway board, or before any board here, has not been at all happy. As far as I am concerned, I shall view the bill with some concern if every local operator has to come to Ottawa, before going into business in the province, to seek permission from a board here.
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Grote Stirling: I cannot understand how the minister will operate under the act after it has been, amended. The purpose of the amendment is to graft on to the Aeronautics Act an air transport board which I understand the Minister of Munitions and Supply will operate, or at least it will operate in conjunction with the Department of Munitions and Supply. He says that the Aeronautics Act will not be amended in any other particular.


Clarence Decatur Howe: When did I say that? I do not think I did say it.


Grote Stirling: The question was asked and that, I understood, was the answer. Are there to be other amendments to the Aeronautics Act?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Grote Stirling: I clearly understood the minister to say that this was the only one.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. I said that the act would be amended to make effective the government's policy with regard to civil aviation as announced in the house some time ago. It is being amended in a number of particulars.


Grote Stirling: Then the description of the minister is one that will be altered?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Grote Stirling: You cannot leave the Minister of National Defence at the head of this act if it is the Minister of Munitions and Supply who will operate the board.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The Minister of Transport is the minister named in the act; but, as I explained, the present is a temporary situation which may or may not last for long; only so long as the air services branch of the Department of Transport is administered by the Minister of Munitions and Supply.


Howard Charles Green: Will the air transport board have authority over air service abroad?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, to an extent. I should not like to answer that question with too great finality. It will certainly have jurisdiction over services in Canada. I presume it may not have jurisdiction over Canadian services everywhere.


Howard Charles Green: A route from Canada to Great Britain, for instance?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: What supervision would it have over that?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It probably would have the whole supervision. It is difficult to anticipate

what the rules of international air transport will be, but to-day, as between Canada and the United States, this board will have jurisdiction over all lines that are Canadian operations between the two countries. For instance, the line from Toronto to La Guardia field would be under the air transport board.


Howard Charles Green: Would it have supervision over a United States line coming to Canada?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. The whole matter is subject to international agreement.


Howard Charles Green: On the question of international agreement, now that the British have announced that they cannot follow the Canadian plan, is the government proceeding on the basis of making bilateral agreements with other nations?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Howard Charles Green: With Russia, for example? What is the position? Is our air policy indefinite temporarily?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Everyone's policy is indefinite in that there is no comprehensive international agreement at the moment. Every country in the world is attempting to convince other countries that its owm view of the international situation is the correct view. In consequence of a number of conversations, each view is more or less solidifying toward a common basis that all countries can accept. But until a basis can be found that all countries can accept there will be no international agreement.


Howard Charles Green: In what direction is it solidifying?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I cannot say exactly. I am not a prophet.


Agar Rodney Adamson: The minister has paid a high compliment to the United States civil aviation board. I understand there is a radical difference between the policy in the United States and the policy proposed by the minister, in that the United States policy is that there shall be competition over the same routes, whereas in Canada the policy announced by the minister in this house last month was that there should be no competition, or that Trans-Canada Air Lines should have the exclusive right to east and west air lines in Canada and that as regards the feeder lines, such as they were, the individual company should have the exclusive right. I understand that the United States policy is that direct competition is allowed in the major air lines.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The air system of the United States was developed on just the opposite line,

Farm Credit
the line that competition between air lines should be held to a minimum. The country has been divided into certain areas. For example, American Air Lines has the southern part of the United States, United Air Lines the *central zone, and other air lines the northern zone. Competition has been kept to a minimum. Recently the civil aeronautics authority has announced that it will permit competition on heavily travelled lines. There has been some discussion of allowing competition on the line between New York and Boston, which is a very heavily travelled line. This policy may be carried farther, but this is a new development of the last year or so. Before that, the policy of the board, as I understand it, was to avoid competition over the same route for different carriers. Important centres must necessarily be competitive. Of the four transcontinental systems, all must start from New York and several may touch Chicago. But, generally speaking, there is the least possible duplication of routes between different operations. I might point out that the population of the United States is twelve times as great as that of Canada, and that the area to be covered in the United States and in Canada is about the same. There may come a time when there is sufficient concentration of traffic over Canadian lines to warrant competition, and when that day comes I am sure the government of the day will recognize the fact. At the moment, the chances of survival of a modern and efficient Canadian air line depend, in my opinion, on not having competition of services over the same route.


John Ritchie MacNicol: But the rates will be regulated?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Certainly.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I understand one can travel from New York to Chicago by four different lines.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, but that is only competition between two great travel centres. Those four lines from New.York to Chicago travel different routes, and there are no other cities in between that are served by more than one line.
Resolution reported, read the second time 'and concurred in. Mr. Howe thereupon moved for leave to introduce bill No. 133, to amend the Aeronautics Act.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



FARM CREDIT


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a bill to encourage the provision of intermediate term and short term credit to farmers for the improvement and development of farms through bank loans, guaranteed with limitations, by the crown; moneys payable under the act including expenses of administration to ibe paid out of the consolidated revenue fund.
James Lorimer Ilsley: I think I had better make
a statement on this resolution, so that the house will have it before it when it considers the bill. If it is convenient I would suggest that discussion be deferred until the bill is before it, because discussion can be carried on much more intelligently if hon. members have the bill before them. But I should make a statement now because it will assist in understanding the bill.
During my statement on second reading of the Bank Act bill I gave a general outline of the purpose and structure of the proposed Farm Improvement Loan Act. As I then said, this measure is in effect collateral to the Bank Act. The amendments to section 88 of the Bank Act will enable the banks to make loans to farmers for the equipping and improvement of their farms and farm homes and to take appropriate security. The Farm Improvement Loans Act is intended to ensure that these newly created credit facilities will be made available to farmers to the fullest possible extent, at reasonable rates of interest and for sufficiently long terms.
This will be accomplished by guaranteeing each bank against loss up to ten per cent of the aggregate amount of loans made by it in accordance with the prescribed conditions. As I have already pointed out, this technique has already been applied with conspicuous success. Under the Home Improvement Loans Act, the banks loaned $50,000,000 mainly to urban home owners, within the period from November, 1936, to October, 1940. In the main these were loans that wrould not otherwise have been made, and it is generally acknowledged that the act made a notable contribution in terms of employment and community welfare. Under that act the banks were guaranteed against loss up to fifteen per cent of the aggregate value of the loans. Actually the losses to date are only three-quarters of one per cent. Conditions may have been especially favourable to repayment as the business cycle was on the upswing
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Farm Credit

throughout the period of operations under the home improvement plan, but I think we are justified in concluding that a guarantee of fifteen per cent is unnecessarily high, even for loans to farmers which may be somewhat more risky than loans to urban home owners. Guarantees were also extended to the banks in connection with loans made for the summer stocking of fuel by consumers, and again the lending experience was excellent. All 1943 loans are now paid and only one bad debt had to be written off from 1942.
It is considered that a guarantee of ten per cent of the aggregate amount of loans made by one bank will be sufficient to offset the special risks attaching to farm improvement loans, yet will not be so large as to result in reckless lending without regard to the prospect of repayment. The amount of the guarantee is not, of course, the only factor that will influence the volume of loans. The attitude of the banks is important, and I have reason to believe that they will welcome the opportunity to extend their field of usefulness to farmefs. The experience under the home improvement plan and the coal guarantee scheme must have brought home to many bank managers the opportunities that lie close at hand for serving the needs of individual borrowers.
It is necessary, of course, to fix some limit on the amount of loans to which the ten per cent guarantee applies. Further, we think it is desirable that there should be an opportunity after the scheme has been working for a reasonable period for parliament to review its operations and make whatever changes then seem desirable. For these reasons, it is proposed that the guarantee should be effective in respect of a maximum of $250 million of loans made within a period of three years. Apart from this over-all limitation on the government's liability, there will be provision for termination of the guarantee after due notice on loans in any particular category or made by any particular bank. This will ensure effective control over lending operations.
While the banks will be free to make whatever loans they see fit, at their own risk, under the extended provisions of section 88 of the Bank Act, only loans which comply with certain prescribed conditions as to purpose, eligibility of the borrower, amount of the loan, rate of interest, terms of repayment and security will be eligible for guarantee. In the bill itself the more general conditions will be set forth. Of necessity the details must be left to regulation, just as was done under the home improvement plan.

First, as to purpose: the object of the scheme is to provide the credit needed by farmers to increase the efficiency of their farming operations and to enable them to make their farm homes more comfortable and attractive. With this in view, it is proposed that the guarantee should apply to loans made for the purchase of farm implements and farm equipment, for rural electrification, for the purchase of live stock, for fencing and drainage, for the repair, alteration and construction of farm buildings and for other farm improvement purposes that may later be specified in the regulations. The categories are very broad and include nearly every kind of permanent improvement to a farm or farm home.
The question of eligibility for loans raises-some difficult points on which. there may be differences of opinion. It will be proposed that the benefits of the guarantee should extended to occupiers of farms whose principal occupation consists of farming, and should not be available to landlords or to what might be called gentleman farmers, living on farms but working in the city. I think this is the right principle, but I would be glad to consider the views of the banking and commerce committee if they reach a different conclusion when they come to consider the bill founded on this resolution.
As to the amount of the loan, the scheme is meant to benefit the ordinary farmer and not the big scale operator who can presumably arrange a line of credit without government guarantee. Hence, it is proposed that the guarantee should not be effective in respect of loans to an individual farmer exceeding $3,000. The rate of interest is to be limited to a maximum of five per cent simple interest per annum, which is considerably less than rates generally obtaining for this kind of accommodation to farmers from merchants, dealers or other present sources and is, I believe, somewhat less than the average rate charged to farmers by banks on short-term loans. It is reasonable that the rate should be lower since an important part of the risk is being borne by the government. Nevertheless, earnings must be sufficient to cover the banks' costs of operation and to give them an incentive to go out after business.
Ideally, the terms and methods of repayment should be adapted to the circumstances of the individual farmer, taking into account the purpose and size of the loan. Thus a loan for a permanent improvement, such as a new barn, should in general be amortized over a longer period than a loan for a farm implement, and a loan for a cream separator might well be paid out of the monthly cream cheque, whereas payments on a binder would usually be most

Farm Credit
convenient at harvest time. Quite obviously, the necessary flexibility cannot be achieved by legislation or even by regulation. In the final analysis each loan is an individual personal problem. An attempt will be made, however, to issue certain general instructions for the guidance of bank managers and, as experience is gained, to make these gradually more explicit. In the bill itself the only limitation as to terms of repayment will be that a guaranteed loan must be repayable in full in not more than ten years. In practice most loans will be of much shorter duration, the outside limit being approached only in the case of large loans for the construction of a permanent improvement such as the principal farm dwelling.
With respect to the taking of security for farm improvement loans, it is proposed to require the banks to take the kind1 of security available to them under the Bank Act, except in the case of larger loans for permanent improvements for which special provision will be made in the bill founded on this resolution. Thus a loan for the purchase of a binder will be secured1 by a charge on the binder itself, and a loan for the installation of a farm electric system by a charge on both the movable and affixed parts of that system.
I would also remind the house that the banks have powers to take additional security of any kind after the loan has been made; for instance, if the borrower appears likely to default or has already defaulted.
For ordinary loans for permanent improvements, it is not the intention to require the banks in the first instance to take security on the farm itself even though the value of the property has been enhanced by reason of the improvements made. This decision was reached after very careful consideration, and I am sure it will result in a much freer use of the facilities than if the banks had been required to take a mortgage on the farm for every single loan in this category. Where the loan is for a relatively large amount, repayable over an extended period, however, it is reasonable and prudent to take security on the property which benefits by the expenditure of the loan. The bill will therefore contain a provision giving the banks power to take a mortgage or hypothec upon the farm or an assignment of the rights and interest of a purchaser under an agreement for sale as security for a farm improvement loan exceeding 82,000 and repayable in more than five years.
When the scheme is in operation the great majority of farmers will be _able to arrange a loan at the bank and pay cash to the manufacturer or dealer for his machinery and
equipment. The lower rate of interest payable on farm improvement loans will constitute a direct saving to the farmer, and I am also hopeful that this method of financing will make a real contribution to a reduction in prices of farm implements and equipment. Nevertheless, there is danger that some dealers and manufacturers, now that the risk of loss and the cost of collection are being transferred to the banks and the government, may tend to oversell. This is a thorny problem, and the government intends to initiate discussions with the leading companies at once so that suitable agreements can be worked out in advance of the commencement of the act.
These are the principal provisions of the measure founded on this resolution. I do not think it is necessary for me to deal at length with the reasons which led the government to adopt this particular method of providing intermediate agricultural credit. I stated them in my explanation of the banking legislation on May 2, and I amplified them in closing the debate on second reading of the Bank Act on May 11. Briefly, the reasons are these: this method avoids delay; it avoids the hazards and costs and problems of personnel involved in building up a new organization which would be necessary if we were to establish a new agricultural bank; it avoids duplicating the network of branch banks already in existence; it affords a desirable combination of government assistance with business judgment.
It is interesting to observe that the subcommittee on agricultural policy of the advisory committee on reconstruction, headed by Donald G. McKenzie of Winnipeg, in its final report recommended:
That the dominion government make a careful survey of the schemes for providing short-term and intermediate credit now in force in other countries, with a view to making provision for adequate credit at low rates of interest to deserving farmers, using as far as possible existing facilities, including the chartered banks of Canada.


Grote Stirling: Is it the intention of the government to send this bill to the banking and commerce committee and, if so, at what stage?


James Lorimer Ilsley: Yes; after it receives second reading in the house, just as we did with the Bank Act.


Grote Stirling: Another bill was sent to the banking and commerce committee before the principle was decided on second reading, and I wondered whether the government would think well of dealing with this bill in the same way.
Farm Credit


James Lorimer Ilsley: Oh, no; that was a different sort of bill. That bill was for the incorporation of a provincial bank in Alberta, with the principle of which the government was not prepared to agree, and the subject matter therefore was referred to the banking and commerce committee. The government sponsors this bill and the principle thereof, and is asking the house to approve the principle of the bill and send it to the banking and commerce committee for consideration as to details.


Grote Stirling: We are not in committee, but if I may be permitted to say a word I can see the difference perfectly well. However, this measure will open a very wide field of business to the chartered banks, which they have not been able to enter in the past; and although the minister says he understands the chartered banks are favourable to this proposal, I think it would be most valuable to hear the evidence of the chartered banks in that regard, possibly before the principle is decided upon by this house.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Golding in the chair.


Grote Stirling: Does this measure extend these facilities just to the ten chartered banks, or to any other financial houses as well?


James Lorimer Ilsley: I think it is just to the ten chartered banks. The reason I say "I think" is that there may be other than chartered banks in the province of Quebec, but I do not think so.


Grote Stirling: But not to loan companies of any description?


James Lorimer Ilsley: No.


John Horne Blackmore: Are the facilities
created by this act to be extended to all kinds of farmers; fruit farmers, dairy farmers and farmers of all types throughout the country?


James Lorimer Ilsley: "A farmer" is defined in the bill. I do not like to pick up this draft bill and start quoting from it now; there will be plenty of opportunity for that in the banking and commerce committee.


John Horne Blackmore: But not before that.


James Lorimer Ilsley: No. It is intended that afarmer shall mean a person who is in possession of a farm, and whose principal occupation consists of farming such farm. Then "a farm" is defined to mean land used for the purpose of farming, which term includes live stock raising, dairying, fruit growing and all tillage of the soil.


Mr. ROSS (Souris):: I have quite a few
questions to ask, and it is eleven o'clock now..


Mr. RALSTON:: Let us finish it to-night.


James Arthur Ross: This is a very important bill, and I should like to discuss it.


The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Golding):: This is just the resolution.


James Arthur Ross: Then may I ask the
minister questions on second reading, before-it goes to committee?


James Lorimer Ilsley: No.


Grote Stirling: Surely if questions are to-be asked on a bill which is to be sent to the-banking and commerce committee, this is the time to- ask them.


James Lorimer Ilsley: That is quite right.


James Arthur Ross: Then I should like an opportunity to ask a number of questions.
Progress reported.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned until Thursday at three o'clock p.m., pursuant to special order made Monday, February 21, 1944.
Thursday, June 8, 1944