1944-05-18

Hon. J. L. RALSTON (Acting Prime Minister) :: In accordance with a statement I made on Thursday last, I now lay on the table three copies in English and French of the addresses on the occasion of the address of the Prime Minister of Canada to the members of both houses of parliament at Westminster on May 11. As I then indicated, I think it would be the wish of the house that these addresses be printed with the Votes and Proceedings of this house.



FISHERIES


Hon. ERNEST BERTRAND (Minister of Fisheries):: I wish to make a short statement regarding a privilege that has been granted to Canadian fishermen. Negotiations have been going on for some time between -the Department of External Affairs and the government of Newfoundland with reference to the desirability of permitting Canadian fishing vessels operating on the Grand Banks to land a portion of their catches and salt at Newfoundland ports, following which they would return to the banks for further fishing. They would then pick up their fish and salt before returning to Canada. As the fish gradually pack in the vessel, transferring a portion of the fish catches to shore enables a fuller load to be eventually brought home. The government of Newfoundland has seen fit to grant the request for this year only. The condition attached to their action was that announcement would be made by Newfoundland and
Foreign Exchange Control

Canada simultaneously. It was agreed that the announcement be made at three o'clock to-day.
As a result of negotiations with -the government of Newfoundland, it has complied, for this year only, with a request made to it by the Canadian government. The following conditions are to apply:
1.	The privilege is limited to the calendar year 1944, and is restricted to Newfoundland customs ports of entry.
2.	The master of each vessel is to report to the collector of customs furnishing that olficer with information as to the quantity of salt and fish to be landed together with the location of the premises to be used for storage.
3.	The period of storage is not to exceed six weeks or such period as will allow the vessel to finish its baiting and then return to pick up the landed portion of its cargo for conveyance to a Canadian port.
4.	The owner, or operator, of the vessel makes application to the Newfoundland fisheries board for a licence to import salt, in which will be stated the quantity to be stored and the purpose for which it is to be used.



TIE-UP OF HALIBUT FISHING FLEETS ON PACIFIC COAST

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. THOMAS REID (New Westminster):: Mr. Speaker, as conflicting reports are reaching Ottawa regarding the settlement of the difficulty which tied up the Pacific halibut fleet, may I ask the Minister of Fisheries if he has any official information to give the house respecting the settlement of this matter?


Ernest Bertrand: A telegram was sent to my deputy minister by the president of the fishemen's union, dated May 17, and reading as follows:
Vancouver and Seattle halibut fleets voted to begin fishing to-night. Minor details with regard to delivery yet to be worked out by Seattle. Vancouver fishermen anticipate leaving for grounds May 20.



FOREIGN EXCHANGE CONTROL


Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Finance):: I should like to make a statement in connection with the restrictions on pleasure travel under the foreign exchange control regulations. 
The traditional freedom of movement between Canada and the United States has contributed very greatly to the neighbourly feeling and understanding between the two countries, and any interference with this freedom could not be lightly undertaken. It was, therefore, with the greatest reluctance that the government accepted the necessity of imposing the travel restrictions in July, 1940, as a means of conserving Canada's United States dollar resources for essential purposes. It is not possible to make an exact estimate of the amount of United States exchange which has been made available for essential war purchases as a result of the restrictions. The amount has, however, been very substantial and there is no doubt that the restrictions played a vital part in seeing us through a period of critical scarcity of United States funds. Those who have had to forego customary visits to the United States may have the satisfaction of knowing that they thereby played no small part in ensuring that exchange considerations have at no time limited our war effort. I should like to pay a tribute here to the good grace with which the travel restrictions have been accepted by the Canadian people and to the intelligent understanding of their necessity shown by all sections of the American public.
Hon. members will recall that on several occasions since the travel restrictions were imposed, both the Prime Minister and I have stated that they would be relaxed as soon as conditions made such a step feasible. It is not yet possible to remove the restrictions entirely, but I am glad to be able to announce that the government now feels that the foreign exchange position is such as to justify some relaxation. Notwithstanding the difficulties with respect to. transportation, the government attaches such importance to the resumption of normal friendly contacts betwen Canadians and Americans that it has now decided that moderate amounts of United States funds should be made available to residents of Canada for travel for any purpose. It should be clearly understood that the government can give no undertaking that transportation will necessarily be available for all who may wish to take advantage of the exchange relaxation.
Residents desiring to travel to the United States will still be required to obtain foreign exchange control board permits. Such permits will in future be granted, however, in the following circumstances:

United Nations Administration
(a)	Banks will be given authority to sell up to $75 U.S. and approve a travel permit for travel to the United States for any purpose where the applicant has not obtained a travel permit (except for business or in transit travel) within the preceding six months. In order to meet the case of persons who may wish to make only one trip to the United States during the course of a year, the board will approve applications for up to $150 U.S. for a single trip during a twelve-month period.
(b)	Short Form H, which is the common permit used in border communities and which has hitherto authorized the export of $5 Canadian, on condition that the funds may not be spent in the United States except for urban transportation, will be revised to authorize the export of $10, of which not more than $5 may be United States cash acquired as change on previous trips to the United States and the funds exported may be used for any expenditures in the United States connected with the visit there.
The board will, of course, continue to make United States funds available in appropriate amounts where such funds are necessary for travel for business, health or educational reasons.
These relaxations in the foreign exchange control travel restrictions will go into effect as soon as the necessary instructions can be issued by the foreign exchange control board to banks and customs officers. I expect that this will be within the next few days.


Mr. BLACK (Cumberland) :: Is consideration being given to allowing people from the United States, who wish to come to Nova Scotia for their summer holiday, a greater amount of gasoline? Under the present regulations they are not given enough to permit them to bring their cars to Nova Scotia and return home, with the result that they are not able to make summer visits to that province.


James Lorimer Ilsley: The matter of the control of
gasoline comes under the jurisdiction of my colleague the Minister of Munitions and Supply.


Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: Would the United States portion of the train fare have to come out of the $75 which you are allowing people who wish to go to the United States?


James Lorimer Ilsley: I think, and I am fairly sure I am correct in this, that transportation by
train can be purchased in Canadian funds, so that that would not take any part of the $75 or $150 as the case may be.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: In the past if a bank issued $50 in United States currency, or if a person had a cheque for $50 in United States funds, the United States portion of the transportation, amounting to perhaps $24 or $30, would have to come out of those United States funds.


James Lorimer Ilsley: I do not know what the practice was in the past, but I made inquiry as to the very point on which the hon. gentleman based his question, and was informed that transportation costs could be met in Canadian funds, which would be over and above the $75 or $150 as the case may be.
Mr. MeCANN: Are there to be any changes in the premium or discount rates?


James Lorimer Ilsley: That is a matter of government policy to be announced in due course. None is being announced to-day.



UNITED NATIONS


[Stage Direction]
Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Acting Secretary of State for External Affairs):	An
announcement was published yesterday concerning the postponement of the UNRRA council meeting, as follows:
The director general, Herbert H. Lehman, to-day announced that the central committee had decided to postpone the session of the council of UNRRA which had been scheduled to be held in Montreal on June 23. The postponement was made necessary by the emergency restrictions on travel and telegraphic communications from the United Kingdom which would have impeded effective preparation for the scheduled June meeting by European governments.
The central committee of UNRRA decided to meet at regular intervals to consider when circumstances make it possible to set a definite date for the session. It was agreed that forty-five days notice of any date set would be given to the member governments. When a new date is established, it is contemplated that the meeting will be held in Canada.
We hope, of course, that a meeting of the council of UNRRA may be held in Montreal. September has been mentioned as a possible time, but no definite date can be set as yet because no one knows for what period the restrictions referred to in Mr. Lehman's announcement may have to be enforced.
Questions

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. DORION:: 1.	How many orders in council were passed since September 3, 1939?
2.	How many orders in council were amended since September 3, 1939?
3.	How many orders in council were repealed since September 3, 1939?


Mr. CRERAR:: 1.	From September 3, 1939, up to and including May 12, 1944, 44,321 orders in council were passed. During the 'same period approval was also given to 374 treasury boards which contained 24,597 minutes.
2.	and 3. Records are kept in the privy council office of all references to, and amendments and revocations of previously passed orders in council by endorsement upon original orders in council affected. Thus, although it can readily be determined whether a particular order in council has been modified, it is not possible to prepare a general statement as to the numbers of orders in council amended or revoked without an exhaustive and protracted survey. It should perhaps be pointed out that the figures given in reply to question No. 1 include a large number of orders in council which amend or revoke previous orders.


WAR CONTRACTS DEPRECIATION BOARD
Mr. COLD WELL:: What is the total of amounts granted by way of special depreciation pursuant to the recommendation of, or under the authority of, the war contracts depreciation board from the creation of the said board until December 31, 1942?


Mr. GIBSON:: Awarded 1939 to 31st December, 1942, $73,409,045.70; written off to 31st December, 1942, $60,479,138.26; to be written off 1943 to 1949, $12,929,907.44.


WARTIME PRICES AND TRADE BOARD-BUILDING BY-LAWS
Mr. CHURCH:: Has the attention of the government been called to a decision of His Honour Judge Klein, of Toronto, that order 200 of the wartime prices and trade board superseded municipal building by-laws in Toronto, and will any action be taken to remove this control, to aid housing?


Mr. ABBOTT:: Order 200 of the wartime prices and trade board was designed to ensure the maximum use of existing housing in critically congested areas. It permits householders to let or sublet such portions of their homes as they do not require for their own needs, notwithstanding any prohibitory pro-

vision in leases, deeds or municipal by-laws. It does not, however, permit structural alterations that would offend municipal by-laws.
His Honour Judge Klein held that order 200 had the legal force to achieve the purpose for which it is designed. No immediate action is contemplated to remove this control as the order has proved to be a definite aid in making available accommodation that otherwise could not have been offered for rental. Moreover, the order has no apparent effect on new construction.


SCRAP RUBBER
[Stage Direction]
Mr. WINKLER;
1.	Has the government purchasing agency (Fairmont) ceased to buy scrap rubber? If so, when, and why?
2.	How much scrap rubber is in the possession of the government, and at what price is it for sale?
3.	By years, in the past four years, how much has been accumulated, and how much sold?
4.	For purposes required, how long will accumulated stock piles of scrap rubber last?
Mr. CHEVRIER:: 1.	(a) and (b). Fairmont ceased to purchase scrap rubber on February 15th, 1944, with the exception of certain tire parts resulting from the splitting of tires purchased by the company from the rubber reserve and resold to reliner makers in Canada. This will be concluded as soon as the present contract expires.
(c)	The stock of scrap rubber is adequate for present needs.
2.	(a) Inventory as at April 30, 1944- 20,440 short tons. Unsold inventory as of April 30, 1944-10,868 short tons.
(b) Prices depend on the grade of scrap rubber concerned and are based on prices for equivalent grades in the U.S.A.
3.	Scrap rubber accumulated: April 1, 1942 to March 31, 1943-23,862 short tons. April 1, 1943 to March 31, 1944-21,712 short tons.
Sales of scrap rubber: April 1, 1942 to March 31, 1943-14,298 short tons. April 1, 1943 to March 3, 1944-10,044 short tons.
4.	The stock of scrap rubber held by Fairmont Company including stocks in the hands of Canadian reclaimers is considered to be sufficient for 18 months' to two years' supply.


COST OF VICTORY LOAN CAMPAIGNS
Mr. CASTLEDEN:: 1.	What was the total cost of the 4th and 5th victory loan campaigns?
2.	How much of this was expended for, (a) commissions; (b) advertising; (c) radio programmes; (d) salaries; (e) living and travelling allowances; (f) rentals; (g) public functions?
3.	What was the total amount raised in the 5th victory loan?

Questions


Mr. ABBOTT:: 1.	Total cost	
2.	(a) Commissions to salesmen	
Remuneration to dealers	
Remuneration to banks, trust and loan companies, etc	
(b)	Advertising and publicity (excluding radio)....
(c)	Radio	
(d)	Salaries	
(e)	Travelling expenses (including living allowances)..
(f)	Office rental, light, heat and janitor service.
(g)	The records of the national war finance committee are not maintained on such a basis as to disclose the amounts expended on "public functions". Such expenditures are included in "organization expenses" amounting to 837,202.28 in the 4th Victory Loan and $61,021.27 in the 5th Victory Loan and in "advertising and publicity".
4th Victory Loan		5th Victory Loan	
$12,059,209	34	$ 11,817,210	472,369.625	42	2,687,315	463,587,350	00	3,220,875	002,906,083	63	2.328,641	231,308,577	41	1,450,179	37135,955	74	126,802	32364,158	26	554,599	63335,698	28	363,770	5765,475	60	86,455	233. Conversions Cash	
188.036.300 00 1,383,275,250 00
Total (subject to final verification as at May 31, 1944)	 $1,571,311,550 00
Note: The expenditures listed in 1 and 2 above are to April 30, 1944.


DOMINION ARSENALS, LINDSAY-OIL FURNACES
Mr. CASTLEDEN:: 1.	Have the oil furnaces installed at dominion arsenals at Lindsay, Ontario, since 1939, been used since their installation? If so, for what period of time?
2.	What was the total cost of installing and equipping this arsenal with oil furnaces?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: 1.	(a) Yes.
(b) All oil furnaces installed since 1939 have been used with the exception of one in the brass mill representing 1 [DOT] 1 per cent of the total investment. These have been in continuous use since installation. Those in the shell plant have not been used continuously, their use being dependent upon available orders for forged shell. Their use however has [DOT] covered the major portion of the time since their installation.
2.	$278,996.04.



MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY-ARMY ENGINEERING DESIGN BRANCH


Mr. BLACKMORE:: What was the greatest amount of money owned by the dominion government held in each of the chartered banks in 1939, 1940, 1941, 1942 and in 1943?


Douglas Charles Abbott: It is assumed that the question refers to the dominion government's balances with the chartered banks. In the years 1940, 1941, 1942 and 1943, the largest balances are held following dominion loan issues, the proceeds of which are deposited in the banks upon which are drawn the cheques issued by loan subscribers in payment for their subscriptions to the loans. The figures for New York balances in 1939 and 1943 are also abnormally large, due to the inclusion of loan proceeds being held to meet maturing or called issues. New York balances are held in the main to meet interest payments and fluctuate according to the interest payment dates.
The following table gives the maximum balances of the dominon government with each individual bank during the years requested:
and the North American Cyanamid Ltd. on February 24, 1944; said agreement to take effect April 1, 1944?
4.	What action has been taken with regard to the management of the Welland Chemical Works Ltd. having withheld from their technical employees the fact that they now retain part ownership in patents that they have developed on crown property?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: 
INVENTIONS AND DISCOVERIES
Mr. NOSEWORTHY:: 1.	Is i't a fact that the technical employees of crown companies have been required as a condition of employment to sign away all rights to inventions and discoveries?
2.	What changes have been made in agreements between His Majesty's government and private operating companies of crown plants that now allow an inventor to retain certain rights to his invention or discovery?
3.	Is it a fact that changes regarding inventions were w'ritten into the agreement signed by the Welland Chemical Works, Ltd., a crown company, and the American Cyanamid Company

NAVAL SERVICE-"micmac" and "nootka"


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: 1.	Is the Tribal class destroyer Micmac, launched in Halifax last October, yet ready for sea?
2.	Lf not, why not?
3.	Were the machinery and electrical equipment for the Nootka, recently launched, on hand for installation when the ship was launched.
4.	If not, why not?
5.	Were changes made in regard to furnishings for the Nootka, after polished, hand finished w'ooden furnishings had been installed? *
6.	If so, what changes, why were they suggested and on whose orders?

Questions as Orders for Returns


Mr. MACDONALD (Kingston City):: 1.	No.
2.	It normally takes approximately twelve months from date of launching to complete a destroyer of this type, but a longer period will be required for this ship largely due to delays in completing main propelling machinery which is of a type never before manufactured in Canada. This delay is partly due to the many difficulties which have had to be overcome in the manufacture of such new equipment, and also to shortage of skilled labour available for the work.
3.	Auxiliary machinery was on hand and necessary electrical equipment for progressing of ship as required, but not main propelling machinery.
4.	Main propelling machinery was not available for reasons given in answer 2.
5.	No.
6.	Original specifications for ships of this class did call for wood furniture, but because of fire hazard Admiralty, U.S.N. and Canadian naval policy has been changed to eliminate all possible wood work in naval ships and steel furniture is being fitted wherever possible. Some wood was cut for furniture for this ship and a few pieces assembled, but none was polished or installed.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURN

[Stage Direction]
EXIT PERMITS TO MALE CAN An IANS
['I have received a reply from Major General McKenzie. Accompanying the reply were the proceedings of the court of inquiry, which as yet I have not had the opportunity to examine. The report of Major General McKenzie fully corroborates the preliminary report I read to the house the other day. I do not mind at all if my hon. friend would like to see the report made by the court of inquiry; but as a matter of precedent and principle I do not think it is advisable to lay upon the table of the house proceedings of courts of inquiry.']
Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: '
How many exit permits allowing male Canadians between the ages of 18 and 38 to leave for the United States have been granted, by provinces, between the months of September, 1943, and March, 1944, both inclusive?



Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	What was the total number of patient-days
in each of the hospitals under the direction of the	Department	of	Pensions	and	National
Health for the year 1939?
2.	What was the total number of patient-days
in each of the hospitals under the direction of the	Department	of	Pensions	and	National
Health for the year 1943?
3.	What was the total number of medical
personnel	employed in	each	of	the	abovehospitals	for the year	1939,	(a)	full	time;
(b) part time?
4.	What was the total number of medical
personnel	employed in	each	of	the	abovehospitals	for the year	1943,	(a)	full	time;
(b) part time?


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: Return tabled.


CANADIAN FORCES-ADDITIONAL PAT FOR PROFESSIONAL QUALIFICATIONS
Mr. BENCE:: 1.	(a) What additional pay for iprofessional
qualifications is awarded to legal officers in the R.C.A.F.; (b) what additional pay for professional qualifications is awarded to legal officers in the R.A.F.; (c) what additional pay for professional qualifications is awarded to *medical officers in the R.C.A.F.;	(d) what
additional pay for professional qualifications is awarded to medioal officers in the R.A.F.?
2.	(a) How many officers employed as legal officers hold the rank of wing commander, or above, in the R.C1.F.; (:b) how many officers employed as medical officers hold the rank of wing commander, or above, in the R.C.A.F.?
3.	(a) What is the maximum rank provided in the establishment of command headquarters for assistant judge advocate-general, or highest rank of officers employed on legal duties; (b) what is the maximum rank provided in the establishment of command headquarters for command medical officer,^ or highest rank of officers employed on medical duties; (c) what is the maximum rank provided in the establishment of command headquarters for command accounts officer, or highest rank of officers employed on account duties; (d) what is the reason for the difference in ranks of the answers to (a), (b), and (c), if any?
4.	Is there a shortage, or a surplus, of legal officers in the R.C.A.F., or is the supply of such officers adequate?
5.	Is there any difference in the rates of pay between that of an army officer employed as a legal officer, and that of a R.C.A.F. officer of comparable rank, employed on comparable duties? If so, (a) what is such difference; (b) what is the reason for such difference?


UNITED STATES FARM CHEMURGIC CONFERENCE- MANUFACTURE OF SYRUP FROM WHEAT
Mr. TUCKER:: 1.	Was the government or any department or agency thereof represented at the United States farm chemurgic conference held recently at St. Louis, Mo.?
2.	Has the process for the manufacture of syrup from wheat reported at said _ conference to have been developed at the United States government's northern research laboratory at Peori, 111-, been investigated by any agency of the Canadian government with a view to promoting its use, if found feasible, in beet sugar plants or elsewhere in Canada?


FIRE AT PIER 21, HALIFAX
Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: 1.	Did S. S. Wright, Nova Scotia fire marshal, submit a report to Ottawa covering the fire at pier 21, Halifax?
2.	If so, to what department was such report submitted?
3.	What -were the findings of the marshal as to (a) what took place after the fire was discovered; (b) what equipment was stored there; (c) where the fire originated?

Alaska Highway


WAR RISK INSURANCE
Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: 1.	What was the amount of war risk insurance on grain?
2.	Was there any war risk insurance issued on dominion government property?
3.	If so, on what property and where is it located?
4.	What was the amount of war risk insurance sold in each province?
5.	In what provinces were war risk insurance claims paid?


SIXTH VICTORY LOAN
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. GORDON GRAYDON (Leader of the Opposition):: It would appear from statements in the press that Canada's sixth victory loan campaign has been concluded with results which constitute a record and reflect great credit upon the Canadian people. I should be glad if the Minister of Finance would inform, the house as to the amount subscribed in excess of the objective, together with such other details as may be of public interest at this time.


James Lorimer Ilsley: It is impossible to give figures even approximating accuracy until at least a week after the loan closes. However the figures to date are as follows: The number of subscriptions of which we have information amounted up to yesterday to 2,761,000, as against 2,607,000 applications at a comparable period after the last loan. According to our records as of yesterday the amount subscribed in the present loan was $1,356,000,000 as against $1,338,000,000 in the last loan at this date. As I have said, these figures are still incomplete. I expect within a few days to be able to give a much better indication of the final results. However the leader of the opposition is correct about this being a record amount and record distribution, and, as he has said, the people of Canada are entitled to great credit for the way in which they have supported the loan.


James Layton Ralston: Mr. Speaker, I did not know this matter was coming up to-day, but since it has been mentioned I should like to say that very shortly after the loan closed I received a telegram from the Prime Minister dealing with a number of matters, and closing with a reference to the victory loan. Now that an announcement has been made to the house respecting the loan I think it would be acceptable and appropriate if I were to read

this last paragraph from the Prime Minister's telegram. He says:
I should like to add my most sincere congratulations on the magnificent response of the Canadian people to the victory loan.


ALASKA HIGHWAY
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. PAUL MARTIN (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to supplement my reply to the hon. member for Yukon (Mr. Black) given on Monday last regarding questions submitted by him to the acting Minister of Labour on May 12, concerning the recruitment of labour for the Alaska highway. Since replying to the hon. gentleman, he has turned over to me a press clipping from the Vancouver Sun, dated May 10, from which I gather he has based his questions, at least in part.
Officials of the department in Ottawa have again communicated with Vancouver national selective service officials, in particular with Mr. McKinstry, the regional director of national selective service of British Columbia, who was referred to in the newspaper article in question. There is nothing further that I can add in addition to the information which I gave to the hon. gentleman on Monday last. His first question was:
Is it a fact that United States military authorities in charge of the Alaska highway have opened an office in Vancouver, British Columbia, to interview workers to be sent to them by national selective service at Vancouver for work on the Alaska highway?
The answer is no. The second question is:
Is it a fact that the Americans are trying to hire at Vancouver 1,200 men for maintenance work on said highway and 300 men for maintenance work on the oil pipeline from Norman Wells to Whitehorse, Yukon?
The answer, in so far as national selective service is concerned is no. The third question is:
Is it a fact that on February 22 of this year, national selective service at Vancouver had 7,300 jobs awaiting men and that on May 1, they had 12,300 jobs awaiting men-all apart from the American attempt to hire 1,500?
The answer is no. The figures quoted by the hon. gentleman as being applicable to Vancouver in fact refer to the Pacific region as a whole rather than to the city of Vancouver.
While the Vancouver Sun article is a mixture of fact and conjecture, it is correct in pointing out that an acute labour supply shortage is developing in the Pacific region-as in most areas in Canada to-day-and that the problem

War Appropriation-Post Office
of supplying labour for work projects of all kinds in the northern areas in the west will aggravate the supply situation. This matter is receiving active consideration by national selective service, and I can assure the hon. member full consideration will be given to the merits of competing requests for labour supply before instructions are given to supply men for work on the northern projects.


CANADIAN FORCES
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. G. HANSELL (Macleod):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of National Defence. Has a report been made by Major General McKenzie respecting an investigation of alleged mistreatment of conscientious objectors held in Fort Osborne barracks? If so, or if not, will the minister lay on the table or report to the house the findings of Major General McKenzie?


James Layton Ralston: I have received a reply from Major General McKenzie. Accompanying the reply were the proceedings of the court of inquiry, which as yet I have not had the opportunity to examine. The report of Major General McKenzie fully corroborates the preliminary report I read to the house the other day. I do not mind at all if my hon. friend would like to see the report made by the court of inquiry; but as a matter of precedent and principle I do not think it is advisable to lay upon the table of the house proceedings of courts of inquiry.



WAR APPROPRIATION BILL


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Tuesday, May 16, consideration in committee of a resolution to grant to His Majesty certain sums of money for the carrying out of measures consequent upon the existence of a state of war-Mr. lisle}'-Mr. Bradette in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
Canadian postal corps, $385,360.
The CHAIRMAN:: At the last sitting ot the committee the post office item was passed. However, the minister has agreed to answer any questions that may be asked.


Mr. COLDWELL:: Would the minister make a statement about a report which appeared in the newspapers last Monday to the effect that overseas parcels dispatched from this region on Saturday and over the week-end 100-189i	.
were destroyed by fire? I know they were not destroyed, because I had sent a large parcel, and made inquiries. I think the public should be informed.


Hon. W. P. MULOCK (Postmaster General):: Mr. Chairman, the report which appeared in the press referred to 6ne of the mail cars on the run between Montreal and Saint John. The mail in that case was principally for transfer at McAdam, New Brunswick. The upper part of the car was totally destroyed. The contents were mostly news and newspapers. There were no registered letters, and, so far as we have been able to ascertain, no parcels for overseas. The car next to the damaged car was filled with overseas mail, but it was saved and escaped injury. The damaged car is a total loss. Inspectors from the Post Office Department and the railway company have investigated the matter, but it is a total loss, and it is very doubtful if we will be able to ascertain the actual cause of the fire.


Mr. TUSTIN:: Before the house adjourned on Tuesday night I rose to ask the Postmaster General a question but, to my surprise, I saw him in full flight-almost on the double -heading out of the house. I must admit that the great buret of speed demonstrated by the Postmaster General actually took my breath away, and I was not able to ask the question at that time. I notice this item this year is $385,000 as compared with $183,000 last year. I take it that this covers the Canadian postal corps which handles overseas mail?


William Pate Mulock: Yes.


George James Tustin: I have had a number of complaints in the past from men on active service who say they have received several parcels at a time. I have also had letters from men overseas who say they have received as many as fifteen or twenty letters at one time. Since the item has been increased I assume there is more staff employed. First, will the minister break down the item of S3S5.000, and, second, will he give us a report as to whether any progress is being made in speeding up deliY'ery services to boys on the active fronts?


William Pate Mulock: There is a decrease of $19,497. The amount of the vote last year was $404,857; this year it is $385,360, made up as follows:
Salaries-temporary assistance.... $	6.660
Cost of living bonus	  1,080
Departmental contributions to unemployment insurance fund		120
Travelling expenses	 2,000
Telegrams and telephones	 400
Sundries	 100
Printing and stationery	 200,000
Equipment and maintenance		25,000
Mail bags for overseas mail		150,000
War Appropriation-Post Office

With regard to the second part of the hon. gentleman's question, I think I can give him some information which will be of interest. Since March 1 the surface mail time for mail to the United Kingdom has been reduced from an average of thirty days to an average of fifteen days. The time for air letters has been reduced from an average of ten days to eight days. There has been no change in the average time of delivery of parcels. In connection with surface mail to the Mediterranean area, there has been a reduction from an average of fifty-nine days to an average of twenty days. The time for air letters has been reduced from an average of twenty-four days to an average of sixteen days. Airgraph letters take about four days longer because of the processing. The time for parcels has been reduced from an average of ninety days to an average of forty days. The arrangements which I mentioned in my statement of February 28 have now come into effect.
One reason for the reduction in the average time for surface mail is that a great part of this mail, paid for at surface rates, is now carried by air without any additional charge. We have been able to effect a reduction in the cost of processing airgraph messages, and this reduction will be passed on to the members of the armed forces and the public. The committee will remember that in 1942 airgraph letters were reduced from ten cents to six cents to members of the armed forces, and this rate will now be reduced from six cents to five cents. Civilian airgraph messages will be reduced from fifteen cents to ten cents.


George James Tustin: I am glad to get this information from the minister. However, what I really want to know is whether the mail is actually getting to the men on the active service fronts, or is accumulating as it has in the past. I do not know what caused the accumulation which would result in a man getting as many as fifteen or twenty letters at a time. Can the minister assure us that mail is going to the men on the active fronts without delay?


William Pate Mulock: My officials and the officials of the postal corps advise that there is no backlog, that all accumulations were cleared up some time ago. Delays may occur for reasons beyond our control. The hon. member will realize that in the case of men going into reinforcement depots and men who are casualties in hospital, some delay occurs, but this matter is under intense study by members of the postal corps, both overseas and in Ottawa. I want to assure him that everything

humanly possible is being done to speed it up. The postal corps overseas cannot deliver mail until they find where a man is, and it may happen that a man in a reinforcement depot would receive a lot of mail and parcels at one time when the authorities finally located him.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Percy Chapman Black: I should like to ask the Postmaster General what are the rates for air mail service and regular mail service to Bermuda as compared with rates to Great Britain. I have had complaints that the weight allowed to Bermuda is much less than that applicable to Great Britain, the rates being double or more than double. Bermuda is part of the British empire and her relations with Canada are most intimate. I should like to know the justification for this discrimination in connection with mail service to Bermuda, and what steps, if any, are being taken to reduce these excessive rates and increase the weight allowance.


William Pate Mulock: I would advise the hon. member for Cumberland that the mail to Bermuda is carried by United States planes and the rates are set by the pan-American postal union. What he says is quite true; the rates are higher.



DEPARTMENT OF PENSIONS AND NATIONAL HEALTH

[Stage Direction]
Pensions branch - treatment and pension examinations-members and ex-members of the armed forces (present war), $9,000,000.
Mr. WHITE:: I should like to make a few remarks during the general discussion period in connection with a number of matters which come under the pensions department. I hope when the minister replies he will answer the various points that I bring up.
The first point has been raised before in the house. I refer to the insurance principle as applied in the Pension Act. All members are aware that what is known as the insurance principle was inserted in the Pension Act shortly after the last war and remained in effect until some time in May, 1940. At the beginning of the present war the government announced that all benefits of the Pension Act would apply to all soldiers in this war, but, for some reason which to my knowledge has never been disclosed, a change was made by which the insurance principle would not apply to soldiers serving in Canada. It is quite true that some short time ago, after a committee of this house had investigated certain pension matters, an amendment was passed known as subsection 3 of section 11,

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
whereby the pension board could grant pensions on compassionate grounds. I submit that that is not good enough. The type of case that comes under section 11 is the hardship case, and this type of case is dealt with solely at the discretion of the pension commission. I submit to the minister that a young Canadian who enlists in the army, is qualified and ready to proceed overseas and fight, and is regarded by the general public as a soldier likely to proceed overseas, is entitled to the full benefit of the Pension Act, including the insurance principle. As I say these hardship or compassionate cases are only of a temporary nature. They are in the discretion of the pension board and the provision may be cancelled at any time. It seems to me only reasonable that the minister when he makes his reply should give some explanation as to why this change was made in the Pension Act.
I would like to call to the minister's attention a small booklet. There is no date on it, but it was issued, I believe, some time in 1940 or 1941 under the authority of the Canadian pension commission. On page 1 of this booklet there is this significant statement:
The keystone of the pension legislation known as the insurance principle, is contained in sections 11 and 12 of the Pension Act, which in part reads as follows:-
Then it proceeds to quote the sections. On page 3 there is a little insert which reads as follows:
Please insert the following after section 11 (1) on page 3 "Notes on War Pensions."
Note:
In respect of service in Canada after the 21st May, 1940, pension may be awarded only if disability or death is the direct result of the performance of military duties.
I submit that the procedure is hardly consistent with this statement prepared and issued by the board of pension commissioners, that the "keystone of the pension legislation" is "known as the insurance principle." Those are very significant words. It seems to me that our whole pension legislation is built around this one principle.
I understand that a soldier who serves in England or anywhere beyond Canada is covered by all the provisions of the Pension Act, including the insurance principle. But a soldier who enlists for overseas service has nothing to say as to the part of the world in which he is going to serve. He is obliged to go where he is sent, and if his superior officers decide that he is to remain in Canada for service, the soldier can do nothing about it.
While I do not like to cite individual cases, I will refer to one case to show what happened
to a soldier who was injured in Canada and who is not covered by the Pension Act. A young lieutenant went into camp at Connaught Ranges in July, 1943. On the 29th of July, at about seven o'clock in the evening, while he was within the lines of his own regiment, he stepped on a football-he was not playing football-and as a result suffered an injury to his foot and knee. This officer was in the Ottawa Rideau hospital and the Canadian military hospital at Kingston from July 29, 1943, until October 28, 1943. He was unable to return to work until November 8, 1943. He will have a permanent disability, despite all the efforts of the army medical men to assure him that the disability must be from some old injury. During the entire period from July 29, when he suffered the injury, until he returned to work on November 8, 1943, he did not receive any pay or allowances of any kind, nor did he receive any payment of any kind from the army, unless some such payment has been made since May 1, 1944, as to which I have no knowledge. Neither will this officer receive any pension. He is married, and during the fifteen or sixteen weeks he was in military hospital and unable to work, his family had to manage to get along as best they could.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Was he discharged at that time?


George Stanley White: He was in the reserve army and was at camp Connaught Ranges for two weeks. In a case such as this there is no sense of fairness or justice, and the same circumstances can be applied to many other cases in the active army. I think I am correct when I say that other hon. members must have had many of these unfortunate cases brought to their attention.
A soldier on active service in Canada who has the misfortune to suffer some injury while he is not on duty or is on leave is entitled, in my opinion, to come under the insurance principle. A soldier when he is on leave and while he is not on duty is still in the armed forces. He is paid by the army; he wears his uniform; he is subject to military law and military discipline, and can be recalled from leave at any time. More important still, if this soldier had never been in the army he would not have been on leave and would, not have been at that particular place when the accident happened. I have always felt that the army or the pension authorities should assume some responsibility for whatever happens to a soldier while he is serving.
Once a soldier leaves Canada, the department recognizes liability if he is injured while on duty, while he is on leave, and while he is not on duty. In this connection I wish to
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quote from another little booklet issued by the board of pension commissioners, called "The Duty of a War Pension." This booklet was prepared by John L. Todd, who is described as "lately a member of the Board of Pension Commissioners for Canada." On page 6 of this booklet I read this:
Because it is often impossible to decide whether the disability is due to the risks of a soldier's war service or to the accustomed risks of existence which continue during his service, pensions are usually paid for all disabilities incurred during service.
The difficulty of doing otherwise makes it justifiable to accept all detriments affecting a soldier during his service as being due to war risks and to pay pension in compensation for them.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: What is the date of that booklet?


George Stanley White: There is no date on either of the booklets from which I have quoted, but I think it must have been issued after May 21, 1940. They both came to me at the same time from the pension commission. Would not the minister think so?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I may be wrong, but I think the last booklet from which my hon. friend quoted was issued in 1919.


George Stanley White: I got them both at the same time. The one entitled "Notes on War Pensions" states that it was issued by the authority of the Canadian pension commission. The booklets are bound in identically the same manner, have the same style of printing, and I received them both at the same time. I trust that when the minister speaks he will explain why this change was made in 1940 and why at the present time the insurance principle cannot be applied.
I would ask the minister also to explain just what happens to a soldier who is wounded and who later receives a pension, is discharged from the army and comes under the control of the minister's department. Naturally, when the soldier is discharged from the army his pay and allowances cease. During the period this soldier is in hospital receiving treatment, and before his case is decided, what is the amount of pay or allowance, or whatever you wish to call it, received by the officer, noncommissioned officer or private? Is this payment less than his former pay and allowances, and if it is, will the minister explain why? Further in the same connection, during the time that a soldier is taking treatment in hospital, is there a deduction of S10 a week or some other sum to cover hospital allowances or treatment? If there is any such deduction, will the minister explain the matter?
Another point which has been discussed every time the subject of pensions is before 
the house is the old question of the onus of proof when a soldier applies for a pension. I cannot understand how the pension board or any branch of the minister's department can evade their liability when a soldier enters the army in an "A" category and is later discharged in a lower category after having service overseas and is held not eligible for a pension. I think the minister will be the first to agree that when a man goes into the armed forces he receives a most rigid and complete examination, together with X-rays and a careful and scientific examination of eye, ear, nose, throat and other parts of the body. If the army is content to accept that man in "A" category, how in the world can the onus of proof be shifted over to the soldier when he is later discharged in a lower category and the pension board rules he is not eligible for pension? When the poor private soldier appears before the pension board he is faced with an array of probably some of the best medical brains in Canada. Why should he have to pit himself against the entire pension board? I know the minister will probably answer, as he did a short time ago in this house, that the soldier is given the benefit of the doubt. I do not think that is satisfactory. The pension board should adopt a very lenient attitude in all such cases, instead of putting the man off by making a decision to the effect that the injury was in the preenlistment period, that it was wilfully concealed on enlistment, or that it was not aggravated by military service.
Up to date there have been a very large number of men discharged from the army-I believe somewhere around 110,000 or 120,000.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: 135,000.


George Stanley White: Yet according to a return made last session, the actual number receiving pensions is very small. This is especially true of mental and nervous cases. I for one feel that the pension board has not adopted or maintained a very sympathetic attitude in such cases. It is not fair and just that the soldier who has suffered a head injury overseas should be brushed aside by the board, treated as a "lead-swinger," told that his injury is more or less imaginary, and that the best thing he can do is to forget about it and go back to work.
I should like to outline briefly to the minister one of these very distressing cases. A private soldier of the 48th Highlanders became a dispatch rider while in England. During an air raid his motorcycle crashed and he suffered an injury to his head and one knee. He was kept in hospital for a long period; later he

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
was returned to Canada and discharged in "E" category without a pension. This man was unable to work, because he had dizzy and fainting spells. He was advised to take a vocational course at the collegiate institute in the city of Belleville. He started the course, but after he had had a fainting spell he was advised by the director that it would not be safe for him to continue. This soldier was in "A" category when he enlisted; now, after a long period of service overseas, he is discharged in "E" category without a pension. He had certain qualifications as a stationary engineer, and I would have thought that if he was able to work there would have been a place for him in the army, but the army medical authorities decided that he was not fit to carry on in the army. When he came before the medical authorities of the pension board they were unable to find any disability; in their opinion he was quite able to go to work; he was told to do so, and so far he has received no pension.
I am sure that other hon. members have knowledge of some of these distressing mental cases where soldiers have suffered head injuries. I do not think it is good enough for the pension board to dismiss lightly this type of claim, nor do I believe that that is the kind of treatment which the people of Canada expect discharged veterans to receive. I suggest to the minister that he should have a review made of nervous and mental cases with a view to providing adjustments where no pension has been awarded. It appears to me that in all too many cases the allowances and the pensions awarded by the pension board are not granted to soldiers as a matter of right, as they should be, but are handed out in a very grudging manner; that any concessions which are made by the pensions branch, as announced by the minister from time to time, are made only after long delay, after there have been many debates in this chamber, after the press has taken up the matter, after much pressure from the legion and other organizations interested in the soldier's welfare.
An example of this may be seen in the announcement made by the minister on Monday or Tuesday of this week. These benefits which have been conferred at this late date are at least four years overdue, and they have been pressed for by members of this party and by the legion ever since the war started.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: More than four, I am afraid.


George Stanley White: Perhaps I should have said twenty-four years.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is right-thirteen- or fourteen.


George Stanley White: Last year when the minister's estimates under the war appropriation bill were before the house there was a debate on Christie street hospital. Everyone can remember what took place, and the various announcements which were read in the press after the house closed, as to what the future status of Christie street hospital would be. Everyone remembers the many excuses and explanations made by the minister and his department as to why this old boiler-factory of a hospital on Christie street would have to remain, as a hospital for our soldiers. The minister insisted time after time that an extension would be built. I remember one excuse which was given was that because of priorities the necessary material could not be obtained for a new hospital. But finally, at a very late date, the minister had to bow as gracefully as he could to the public clamour of disapproval, and announced that a new hospital would be built north of Toronto, known as Sunnybrook hospital. I hope the minister will give the committee full particulars of what has been done further in the past year. But at the same time I would say to him that he and his department, and those who preceded him, cannot be excused for the long delay in providing fit and proper hospital accommodation for Canadian soldiers. It is quite true that since the debate last year some few changes have been made at Christie street hospital, but no amount of money or changes or improvements will ever make Christie street hospital a fit place for soldiers. It is a disgrace to Canada, and no credit to any government that is satisfied to keep in such a place wounded soldiers from overseas.
As an example, only last week-end I was talking to a graduate nurse who had trained and practised in various hospitals in New York city, many of them in the poorer sections. This nurse had just made a visit to Christie street hospital to see a relative who was seriously ill there.


Mr. SLAGHT:: Name.


George Stanley White: Name of whom?


Arthur Graeme Slaght: The nurse. It may be a
fairy tale.


George Stanley White: If the hon. member thinks
it is a fairy tale I will say I have seen this with my own eyes; I do not have to depend on anybody else.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: That is a good deal better.


George Stanley White: I saw it with my own eyes. I do not need to call on anybody to tell me
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these things, because I have seen them. I will tell the hon. member for Parry Sound about a few things that I saw with my own eyes; nobody told me about them at all.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: Stick to those.


George Stanley White: You just keep quiet and you can tell your fairy tale later, if you want to. I will tell the hon. member, who lives in the city of Toronto, a few things about the Christie Street hospital, in case he has never been there.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I have been there several times.


George Stanley White: I was referring to the hon.
member for Parry Sound. It is his misfortune that he lives in Toronto. In this hospital-


Mr. MacNICOL:: His living there is an
honour to the city of Toronto.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: The hon. member for
Hastings-Peterborough (Mr. White) will not please seven hundred thousand people with that Temark.


George Stanley White: This hospital was an old
factory; it was taken over by the government twenty-five years ago and patched up from time to time. There is accommodation for 1,370 patients. The building is far from fireproof, and if anybody has ever ridden up and down the elevators,, just let him think what would happen in case of fire. Look about and you will see the many articles that would burn in that building. The wards are bigger than any hospital ward I have ever seen. One ward must have at least seventy-five patients in it, with a row of beds around the four walls and rows up and down the centre. The location is simply ideal for a hospital, because it is right beside the railway tracks, and street cars run close to it. There is also a choice collection of factories surrounding it, many of them working night and day. If any hon. member will visit this hospital during warm weather when the windows are open he will find a cloud of soot and smoke floating through the wards, and he will be able to write his name on many articles of furniture. There is an eternal clatter of street cars and factories and other noises. There are no trees or [DOT] grounds surrounding the hospital about which the soldiers could walk. There are no recreation rooms, no places where soldiers may meet their friends. As I mentioned last year when speaking on this matter, the toilets and washrooms are something that nobody should be asked to tolerate.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: Will the hon. member permit a question?


George Stanley White: When I finish the hon. member may ask any questions he wishes.


An hon. MEMBER:: You are worried.


George Stanley White: I do not think I am worried about many questions from the hon. member for Parry Sound or from the hon. member from Prince Edward Island, whose chief asset in this house is to thump his desk and make a few remarks.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


George Stanley White: What for?


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Order. I should like the hon. member to keep to the item, if possible.


Mr. GRANT:: Was it not the Tories who started that hospital?


George Stanley White: In addition there is a great lack of staff at this hospital. Any hon. member who has visited this hospital many times must have noticed the lack of orderlies. The return brought down by the minister a few days ago shows that nearly one-quarter of the accommodation of this hospital is used for soldiers who are receiving treatment for injuries suffered in the first great war. The number shown in the return is 304 out of a total bed capacity of 1,370.
When this matter was before the house last year I asked the minister a question with regard to. the number of patients who were allowed to have a private nurse at Christie Street hospital. I suggested at that time that patients did not have private nurses, and the minister assured me that that was not correct; that there were many cases where soldiers had the service of a private nurse. I should like the minister to place on Hansard a statement showing the number of individual soldiers at Christie street hospital who have had the services of a private nurse-and by "private nurse" I mean a graduate nurse, not a male orderly or another soldier patient. I know of cases at this hospital where soldiers have undergone a serious operation, and after the operation they had no nurse but were placed in a ward of from four to six beds- rightly called the "snake" ward; and if the snake ward is full they are placed in a ward of perhaps fifteen or twenty beds. There is no accommodation or provision for placing a soldier in a private room after a serious operation, where he will have the quiet he requires so that his nerves will have an opportunity to relax and quiet down.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health


George Stanley White: That is all right, if it is all that hon. members from the other side can offer. If any hon. member over there wants to get up and rectify the conditions at Christie street hospital he will have the opportunity to" do so as soon as I sit down.
The last time I was at this hospital visiting a certain soldier the thought occurred to me: what must be the reaction of a mother who sees her son at Christie street hospital for the first time after his return from overseas?
I wonder if that mother goes away with the feeling that Christie street hospital is the best that can be provided for her son.
There are many other objectionable features to this boiler-factory hospital, and I hope that when the minister speaks he will tell us what is being done about the new hospital and how long it will be before Christie Street hospital will be only a horrible memory.
In the matter of the rehabilitation grant, which at the present time is one month's pay and allowances, this amount seems very inadequate. I know-[DOT]


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is not under my department; it comes under the Department of National Defence.


George Stanley White: Is there not a rehabilitation benefit?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes. The benefits are under the Department of Pensions and National Health, but not the grant.


George Stanley White: Perhaps the minister would allow me to say just a word on that point. At the present time the rehabilitation grant amounts to one month's pay and allowances. A large number of men have been discharged from-the army, and I hope there will be legislation this session under which the amount of the grant will be increased. The point is that if these men and women are to rehabilitate themselves when they are discharged, that is the time they should receive their grant. In conclusion-


An hon. MEMBER:: Hear, hear.


George Stanley White: Isn't that just lovely? That is the hon. member's war contribution. At the last session of the Ontario legislature a measure was passed similar to what is known in the United States as the Sparkman act, which has been mentioned in this house many times. Briefly it provides protection for soldiers and their dependents in such matters as eviction, foreclosure on mortgage, seizure of property for taxes and debt, judgments or other legal proceedings for debts incurred prior to enlistment, and so on. While this may not come under the minister's department, I think it is an important matter. This protection now exists in Ontario, but the principle is a splendid one and should be made to apply in all the provinces. I offer that suggestion to the minister for his consideration.
I believe the hon. member for Parry Sound wanted to ask a question.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: Is my hon. friend aware
under what administration the site he has so graphically condemned was chosen originally and the activities carried on until 1930? Perhaps I should not put too much to him, but what activity did he show from 1930 to 1935, when Right Hon. R. B. Bennett was the leader of his party, in endeavouring to right the wrong which he has described so vividly to-day?


George Stanley White: I was not in the house from 1930 to 1935, and at that time there was no war. This boiler factory, if it can be classed even as that, was purchased some time between 1917 and 1920, I am not sure in what year, by the union government.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: You were a good Tory,
though.


George Stanley White: The hon. member asked me a question, and I will give him an answer. It was purchased in one of those years by the union government. I am not sure what type of building it was then, but I imagine it is in very much the same condition now as it was at that time. It has been carried on by all governments to the present time. So far as I am concerned it does not make one particle of difference whether it was purchased by a Liberal, a Conservative or a union government; I have nothing to withdraw, and I say the thing is a disgrace to Canada.


Mr. WRIGHT:: I should like to draw two
or three matters to the attention of the minister, but before doing so I want to say that I concur fully in at least some of the points made by the hon. member for Hastings-Peterborough. The first is in regard to the insurance principle being applied to soldiers serving in Canada. I do not know why it was dropped, and I certainly hope: the minister will give us some explanation in that regard to-day. I believe it should be put back in the act, bceause no doubt injustices are being created in the administration of the Pension Act in Canada as a result of the dropping of this insurance principle.
The second point is in regard to the discharge of men who were admitted to the army in category A-l. Only last week I had
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the privilege of going through the depot in Toronto and seeing the thorough way in which these men were examined on entering the army. Certainly they are given a good going over; they are examined by specialists of all kinds, and when they are admitted as A-l there is no doubt that they are A-l. I do not understand how these men can be discharged within six months or a year in category E, while our pension department assumes no responsibility for the deterioration which has occurred in their condition. It seems to me that after a man is given a through examination, X-rayed and all the rest of it, and is accepted as A-l, the responsibility for any deterioration in his health rests with the army, because that is where it occurred. The phrase we see on so many discharge papers, "disability aggravated by service but not attributable to service" should be dropped from our vocabulary. When the health of a man has deteriorated to this extent he should be recompensed in some way. I also had an opportunity to note the thorough way in which the men are examined on discharge from the army, and I must say that is something upon which the department must be congratulated. These men are given a most complete examination, which was not the chse after the last war, and the department has something to go on with respect to any claims which may be made later on.
Some time ago I drew to the attention of the government the desirability of establishing convalescent homes for returned men, and I believe some action is being taken in that regard. I have in my hand an article appearing in the Halifax Herald which states that the government is establishing a health centre on the Rideau river near Ottawa to rehabilitate men suffering from nervous and other disabilities. It is stated also that four other centres are likely to be erected, one in Toronto, one in Montreal, one in London and one in Vancouver. I do not know whether these are all the minister has in mind, but I would point out that of the five mentioned, three are in Ontario, one is in Quebec and the other in British Columbia. Apparently western Canada has been forgotten. I suggest that these convalescent homes be established all over the dominion so that the men receiving treatment in them may be at least reasonably close to their relatives and friends, from whom they may receive visits. I am sure that would help in their treatment, and make their surroundings more pleasant. It is all very well to say that the climate in Vancouver is much more agreeable than that of the western provinces, but I do

not think that is the only thing to be taken into consideration in the establishment of convalescent homes.
I should like to mention also the matter of hospitalization. I believe in Canada to-day, not only among civilians but also under the Department of Pensions and National Health, we are very short of hospital beds and hospital accommodation. I know the minister is endeavouring to overcome this difficulty. I believe plans have been made to build in Toronto a new hospital to take care of large numbers who will require hospitalization. In the building of these hospitals there should be a certain amount of decentralization. Plans I have seen would seem to indicate that all the hospital accommodation to be built is to be centred in certain large communities. I believe an additional wing is to be added to the hospital at Regina, and to the one at Saskatoon. The Deer Lodge hospital in Manitoba will be added to, and there is to be a large hospital in Toronto. But if a hospital is built in Toronto to take care of the needs of our soldiers, it will be found that men from northern Ontario, including points such as Port Arthur and Fort William, who require hospitalization, will have to travel a long distance to Toronto to receive the necessary care.
It is proposed in the new medical health bill now before the social security committee that the provinces, upon accepting the bill, will establish medical health clinics at different points. I suggest to the minister that when that is done his department should be prepared to arrange for a certain number of beds for soldiers in those clinics. Surely it would be much better for those men to receive attention nearer their homes than to be sent to the larger centres. In some cases, of course, special treatment that is required, may be available only in the larger cities.
Large numbers of our men who will return will require hospitalization for a number of years. If the accommodation is centralized it will mean that relatives and friends who might wish to visit these patients would have to go to the expense of travelling long distances. The department would do well to give consideration to establishing a certain number of beds in each of the medical health centres which may be set up under the provisions of the legislation now before the special committee.
In this connection I received only recently a communication from a town in northern Saskatchewan. Its geographical location is such that great difficulty is entailed in transferring patients from the area to either Regina

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
or Saskatoon. There is no direct train service, and often it takes pensioners in the area forty-eight hours or longer to reach either Saskatoon or Regina. This town and community of Nipawin propose the building of a forty-bed hospital. It is a new area which was established after the last war. To a large extent it consists of people who returned from that war, many of them pensioners who now require hospital treatment from time to time. The letter states further that in this war there have been over 2,000 enlistments from that community. They propose to build their hospital on one of the finest possible sites, one very similar to that occupied by the sanatorium at Prince Albert. It is to be built in a sixty-five acre park, right on the high banks of the Saskatchewan river. They are asking the department to build an additional twenty-bed wing to take care of the soldiers who will return from this war, and the veterans of the last one. The Department of Pensions and National Health would do well to consider decentralization of hospital facilities, particularly in view of the fact that we shall have to take care of a great many returned men.
Another matter that has been brought to my attention in letters I have received is the question of pre-natal care for soldiers' wives. I have been told that a considerable number of deaths have been caused through lack of proper pre-natal care. It would seem that pensions are not sufficient for this purpose. Of course I know the soldier's wife may apply to the dependents' allowance advisory committee to get additional help in case of necessity. Quite often however in outlying areas these committees are not easily reached. The Department of Pensions and National Health would be well advised to make some regular allowance to soldiers' wives requiring special care at such times.
There are other matters I shall bring to the minister's attention when other items are called.


Mr. ROEBUCK:: Mr. Chairman, as I listened to the hon. member for Hastings-Peterborough it struck me that he was threshing old straw, and that he was just about twenty years late in the criticism he directed against the hospital.


An hon. MEMBER:: That is not long.


Arthur Wentworth Roebuck: Well, in my career it seems to be quite a while.


Mr. ROSS (Souris):: Some people live in the past.


George James Tustin: At least he has been consistent.


Arthur Wentworth Roebuck: I do not think he has. That speech should have been made in 1940 when the hon member reached the house- not in 1944. The reason it is old straw-and much too old, at that-is that the government has decided to build another hospital, one which I trust will be much more adequate to the needs of the soldiers than the present one. It should have been built sooner. Probably it should have been built in the first instance, rather than the one that is there.
I would point out that the usefulness or adequacy of the hospital has not been decreasing. If anything it has been getting better rather than worse. I say that because from my own experience-and I know something about the hospital, because it is in my own constituency-I feel justified in saying a word of commendation for the management. Under Doctor McMane, district superintendent, it has been well managed in recent years. While the staff and management have been working under disabilities because of the building itself, its location, and perhaps lack of some equipment-although there is considerable equipment in the hospital-it is my belief that they have done the best they could under the circumstances.
There are two or three points to which I would direct the attention of the committee. In the first instance I believe the time that has been spent on, and the interest shown by members in, the welfare of our fighting forces and the soldiers who will return home, is to the credit of the house. We owe to them a duty, and I am under the impression that in a general way we are discharging that duty to the best of our ability.
About two weeks ago I presented to the house a petition signed by 1,500 or 2,000 persons in my own constituency, asking that the clothing allowance be increased from $65 to $125. That is a petition with which I thoroughly agree. True, it was directed to the Prime Minister rather than to the house and, since it asked for an increase in a money appropriation, technically it could not be received by the house. But in fact it was received and I have no doubt registered in the minds of the government and of hon. members. Although this amount of $65 represents a recent increase, it is still utterly inadequate to cover the cost of clothing required by a soldier on discharge. I have a letter from the Minister of National Defence (Army) to whose attention I brought this matter, which concludes with the following words:
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I can assure you that it is having the most careful and sympathetic attention along with many other matters with respect to the rehabilitation problems now under study.
I take it that the matter is being studied by the cabinet, and I hope they will agree with me that this amount should1 be increased. It is not possible to consider the affairs of the soldiers in detail without considering the picture in the main. For instance, I am not disregarding the announcement recently made in the form of an order in council that, among many other things, there will be an increase from $44.20 per month to $60 per month in the allowance paid under the post-war discharge reestablishment order to single men who wish to continue their education or take a course in vocational training. The allowance to married men is to be increased from $62.40 to $80 per month.


An hon. MEMBER:: What are you reading from?


Arthur Wentworth Roebuck: From a newspaper report of the order in council. It is not an editorial.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: And tabled in the house.


Arthur Wentworth Roebuck: My hon. friend evidently does not like the particular paper from which I am reading. Were I reading from the editorial columns of that paper I would apologize to the committee. As I say, one must consider increases of this nature when discussing other increases which are, desired. They hang together; they must be considered as a whole rather than in detail. The increase in the allowance granted to a man in order to complete his education on discharge would in some measure relieve the tension caused by the small amount given him as a clothing allowance. I hope that the assurance I have received from the Minister of National Defence that the matter is under discussion will result in a larger clothing allowance to our soldiers on discharge.
It has also been borne in upon me from time to time that a good deal of the objection to the conditions which we have established for the discharge of our fighting men is due to a lack of knowledge as to what actually is being done. I know from my own study of the acts and the various regulations how difficult it must be for the ordinary man in the armed forces or his friends to grasp the details. The literature that has been published is of considerable importance. I have a pamphlet entitled " D Day." The sub-title is, " When the Canadian Fighting Man again becomes a Working 
Man." I wish to commend the people who have produced that pamphlet and1 who I believe are circulating it in large numbers.
More striking than that is a book recently published by a member of the staff of the Department of Pensions and National Health, Mr. C. N. Senior, an executive assistant in the department. The book, just off the press, is entitled, " When the Boys Come Home." He kindly gave me a copy which I read with great interest. The subtitle is, "Their Post-War Opportunities in Canada." This book should be read by every hon. member. It is easy, open reading. I started and finished it in one evening. I found it more interesting than a novel or a stoiy.
It is in story form. I see that one of my hon. friends has a copy in his hand. I hope all hon. members will read it, because it shows a grasp of what the situation really is, to a greater degree than any other document I have read. The author of this book has a philosophy of life and a knowledge of affairs. He went through the last war and has been closely in touch with veterans' affairs for many years. An hon. member calls my attention to the fact that his son is .at present overseas. He has a very personal relationship to the armed forces. He has done his work well, and I understand he did it in his own time, not in the time of the department or of the people of Canada by whom he is paid. I have also been informed that he receives nothing in the way of royalties on the publication, that what accrues in that regard is being given to one of the veterans' organizations or to some fund.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The disablement fund.


Arthur Wentworth Roebuck: 
James Arthur Ross: Mr. Chairman, I should like to offer a few observations on these estimates for pensions. The previous speaker, the hon. member for Trinity (Mr. Roebuck), accused my colleague of threshing old straw. Since coming here in 1940 I have found that it is necessary to rehash one's argument, or, as the hon. member terms it, thresh old straw. This is my fifth session, and I have found that a member does not get much for the people he represents if he does not get up and fight for it. My colleague the hon. member for Hastings-Peterborough has consistently at all times pleaded for the welfare of all members of the armed forces and their dependents; it is to his credit that he has never missed an opportunity at any time. I should like to congratulate him upon the splendid speech he made this afternoon on their behalf, and I think he is also to be heartily congratulated upon the constructive suggestions he has offered to the minister and his department for the betterment of members of the armed services.
I should like first to make some reference to the insurance principle in pension legislation. The person who volunteers for service in the armed forces must obey orders and serve vrherever he is instructed to go. The insurance principle in pensions, I think we all realize, originated during the last war. It was found necessary to establish that principle in order to prevent certain injustices which prevailed at that time. In 1919, when the Pension Act was enacted, the insurance principle was included in its provisions after due deliberation by this parliament. A few years after the last war, as a result I believe of the urgings of ex-service men's organizations throughout the country, a commission was set up headed by the then Colonel Ralston, now the Minister of National Defence, and acting Prime Minister. That commission sat for a couple of years, and after a great deal of well worth-while work recommended that the insurance principle should be restored and applied to all those who had served. The Pension Act was amended accordingly. At the outbreak of the present war the government pledged itself to apply all the benefits of the existing Pension Act, including the insurance principle, to those enlisting for active service. A special order in council was passed under the War Measures Act giving effect to this pledge. However, on May 21, 1940, the
government changed its policy, repudiated its pledge, and definitely excluded from the benefits of the insurance principle all those whose service was in Canada only.
I have already pointed out that all those who volunteer for active service must go wherever they are directed; they have little choice once they have enlisted. True enough, provision has been made whereby a pension may be granted on compassionate grounds for serious disability or death arising from service in Canada, where those concerned are in necessitous circumstances. I do not think that that should be the law applying to those who have offered their services. But the fact remains that the benefits of the insurance principle have ever since May 21, 1940, been denied to those whose service in the present war has been on active service in Canada only.
In my opinion the pledge given by this government at the start of this war should be lived up to. I think most people believe in that principle, and I trust that the minister will still be able to prevail upon his colleagues to have this provision reinstated.
As to pre-enlistment conditions, I know that the minister has said that the benefit of the doubt should be given the claimant. But in mjr opinion the physical condition of a man or a woman should for all future purposes be considered as that obtaining at the time of acceptance into the armed forces. That unfortunately is not the law of the land at the , present time. In spite of their best efforts, ex-service men and their associations have not been able to secure remedial action in connection with a situation which I have always considered one of the worst blots on pension administration in Canada. Full and generous pension treatment should be the responsibility of the dominion.
In Great Britain the situation is perfectly clear-cut. In the British House of Commons Sir John Anderson recently said:
We establish the presumption that a man's condition as recorded on his admission to the service was in fact his condition at that time, and that any subsequent deterioration in his condition was due to his service.
We provide that there shall be no proof of onus on the claimant, and that the benefit of the doubt shall be given to the claimant.
This is simple justice, and should prevail in Canadian pension administration.
Much has been said on hospitalization. I have pointed out in past debates on pension estimates that all military hospitals should be located in quiet areas throughout the country to avoid undue disturbance of our nerve-shattered ex-service men, and should be surrounded by proper grounds. Too often that is not the case to-day. I am happy to say
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that in my native province of Manitoba we have a splendid military hospital, admirably located and surrounded by appropriate grounds. Unfortunately that is not true of many other parts of Canada. I am informed that generally speaking the surroundings are very unsatisfactory. My colleague the member for Hastings-Peterborough and others this afternoon have mentioned Christie street hospital in Toronto. I understand that originally it was a factory, which was taken over during the last war as temporary hospital quarters. It is certainly most unsuitable for the purpose for which it is used. On one side are the railway tracks, and the other side, street cars. It is in the midst of a manufacturing centre where there is tremendous noise at almost all times. The surroundings are anything but conducive to the welfare of the patients.
The widow of a soldier who had a pension disability of less than fifty per cent has had something done for her, but I think she is entitled to be granted a pension after the death of her husband, and she should also be entitled to hospitalization and medical care on the same basis as the veteran receiving a war veterans' allowance. We ought to do at least that much for the widows of our ex-service men.
I would ask the minister a question with respect to hospital treatment. The private soldier and other ranks including lieutenant, receive, I understand, the same allowance while they are being given hospital treatment; then the allowance ranges upward for a captain and higher ranks. On what basis is that arrived at?
The clothing allowance has recently been increased to $65, but I maintain when a man who has been in the service for some years and has served overseas is discharged he cannot properly reclothe himself for less than double the amount of $65. The allowance should be further increased.
There are various features of the Sparkman Act in the United States which I hope the minister will consider. It makes provision for certain legal protection for members of the armed services to which I think they are rightly entitled under federal authority.
I realize that some of the improvements which we have advocated in past discussions of the pension estimates have been put into effect; for instance, with respect to the dependents' allowance and the rehabilitation of discharged men. These improvements have been effected following discussions in the house in which members of all groups have repeatedly advocated them. The minister,

being an ex-service man himself, I realize is sympathetic in the administration of his department-very sympathetic. I know that he is eager to see still more improvements made in the treatment of our soldiers and their dependents, and I trust he will be able to persuade his colleagues and be able to bring down measures to alleviate some of the conditions which are not satisfactory at the present time.
I do not wish to take further time at the moment but I shall have questions to ask as the estimates are proceeded with,


Mr. QUELCH:: Mr. Chairman, several
improvements have been made in the treatment of our soldiers and their dependents since the beginning of this parliament. The fight to get justice for them has been going on steadily for the past twenty-five years, and generally speaking quite a bit of progress has been made. On the other hand we did slip and slip badly in the spring of 1940 when we took the insurance principle out of the Pension Act. That was done first of all by order in council, and later the provisions of the order in council where embodied in an amendment to the Pension Act. The minister will remember that there was strong opposition to that proposal in the special committee of this house dealing with pensions; finally, some kind of compromise was reached under which the pension would still be paid, provided the dependent soldier was in necessitous circumstances. I remember that at that time we were promised definitely that a wide interpretation would be given to "necessitous circumstances". I am beginning to believe that that wide interpretation is not being given, or that it is not as wide as it should be. I believe that most- hon. members have on their files cases of soldiers' dependents who have been deprived of pensions as a result of the insurance principle being taken out of the act. I will place on Hansard some figures showing what the result of that action has been in so far as soldiers in this war are concerned. I am dealing now, of course, only with soldiers serving in Canada.
In sessional paper No. 170C, which was tabled in reply to some questions asked by myself, we find this. Eeferring only to deaths among men and women of the armed services who served in Canada, in 458 cases a decision was given'refusing pension. In approximately 398 of these cases it was held that the injury or disease or aggravation thereof resulting in death was incurred during but did not arise out of nor was directly connected with military service. Then, under section 11, subsection 3 of the Pension Act, 325 were allowed

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pensions; that is, under the necessitous clause. We find, referring to disability only, that in 28,824 cases decisions were given refusing pension. In approximately 5,843 of those cases it was held that the injury or disease or aggravation thereof resulting in disability was incurred during but did not arise out of nor was directly connected with military service. Again, we find that under section 11, subsection 3 of the Pension Act, 871 were allowed pensions on account of necessitous circumstances. I should like the minister, when he comes to reply, to tell the committee exactly what that term, "necessitous circumstances", means.
With regard to soldiers' entitlement to free hospitalization, any soldier who is "indigent" can receive free hospitalization, and "indigent" is defined as, "any soldier whose income is less than $1,000 a year." Surely, if an indigent soldier is a man with an income of less than $1,000 a year, then a dependent in necessitous circumstances should be defined as a person whose income is less than $1,000 a year. But apparently that is not the case, because I had my attention drawn to cases where the income of the dependent was considerably less than $1,000 a year and yet a pension was denied to her.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Does the hon. member remember what was the percentage of disability in that case?


Victor Quelch: I should not like to say from memory.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Was it over fifty per cent?


Victor Quelch: It was a case of death. The soldier had been killed. The income of the dependent was, T believe, around $600 a year. Although the woman was getting only $50 a month, a pension was denied her. I feel that she should be classed as an indigent so long as her income is less than $1,000 a year; that is, she should be treated in the same way as the soldier in that respect.
There is one other point to which I want to refer, namely the refusal of pension because the disability is of pre-enlistment origin. I can quite appreciate that where disability becomes evident one or two months after enlistment there may be some justification for that stand. But in view of the fact that these men are given a thorough examination -I think the rejections go to prove that- when a man has been in the service for two or three years, undergoing severe training- for example, commando training, which has broken down the health of a lot of men- the government are being very unfair indeed
to the soldier to try to prove that that disability was due to some condition of pre-enlistment origin. I do not think it is altogether creditable to the pensions administration that they adopt the means they do to try to prove it. Apparently a conversation is entered into with the soldier, maybe at the time of the enlistment, maybe at some time before discharge, with a view to getting him to admit that, four or five years or even longer before his enlistment, he had some disability. There is a case on my files of a man who, while working on the railway, had a crowbar dropped on his foot and for three or four months he was disabled; after that he was all right and was able to continue his work on the railway. To-day that man is refused a pension on the ground that the foot disability was due to this accident which happened several years before the war, although he had been working steadily on the railway, prior to enlistment, without any sign of a limp, and several months passed after his enlistment before he had foot trouble, which, he claimed, was due to the commando type of training.
On several occasions the minister has made comparisons between the pensions administration of Canada and of other countries. But if I understand it aright, in England the treatment accorded is quite different. In an issue of the Canadian Veteran dated April 30, 1944, I find this statement :
In Great Britain, for instance, the situation is perfectly clear-cut. One has only to take a declaration made in the House of Commons in London recently by Sir John Anderson. He said: "We established the presumption that a man's condition as recorded on his admission to the service was in fact his condition at the time; and that any subsequent deterioration in his condition was due to his service. We provide that there shall be no proof of onus on the claimant and that the benefit of the doubt shall be given to the claimant."
That is not the law in this country, and that seems to be one main ground of complaint in the army. The two complaints I hear chiefly to-day are: the failure of the government to maintain the insurance principle, and this question of pre-enlistment origin. These are very sore points with the men in the army and the various soldier organizations, and I suggest to the minister that a change in both respects be given serious consideration. If a change is not possible to put the insurance principle back in the act, if the government is not prepared to go that far, the very least it can do is to give a generous interpretation to the clause relating to necessitous circumstances.
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Since no doubt we shall have the chance of a thorough discussion of soldiers' affairs when the new department is set up, I shall defer the rest of my remarks until that time.


Mr. McIVOR:: I am not going to make a speech, but I have something to say. Any man who represents a constituency which has a voluntary enlistment record second to none in Canada will have a well-beaten trail to the Department of Pensions and National Health. I should like to take this opportunity of paying my tribute to a prince of men, the late chairman of the pension commission, Major General Macdonald.' I found him courteous. I found him thorough. He would obey the law as best he could, but sometimes he had to go beyond. I remember once when I was most urgent in trying to get relief of some kind for a soldier's wife. This particular man had died suddenly. He was a victim of shell shock, and when Major General Macdonald could not find anything in the act to cover this case he secured from some place $25 for me to help the widowed mother and her four boys. Her house had been burned over her head. Three of those boys are now serving in the forces and one is too young. Therefore I pay my tribute to Major General Macdonald, the former chairman of the pension board. I would also pay my tribute to Major General Melville. I had two urgent cases and I did not see any hope for them unless the Pension Act was amended. These two cases have now been handled in such a way that the two boys and their parents are well satisfied.
I' do not know whether the Minister of Pensions and National Health is a believer in predestination-I know his forefathers were- but I know from his conduct that he does not want this country to save taxes at the expense of young men who are risking their lives for the welfare of their country, and who have come back less physically fit than they were before they went away. I should like to know whether it is true that the minister is to act on the theory that we should save taxes at the expense of the returned soldiers. When I think of these young men that I have mentioned, without naming them, I am reminded that they were badly discouraged because one of them had not been in the forces very long. He was more disappointed than anything else because he was not physically fit, owing to a disease that he contracted. He was not able to get overseas and it was the disappointment of his life. I am happy to know that the pension board will compensate him for his risk. I pay tribute to the Minister of Pensions and National Health. I say that it is the duty of every hon. member of this committee to make sure that every returned

man from any theatre of war has his case presented to the Minister of Pensions and National Health. If that is done, judging from my own experience, I am sure that they will be treated in a way which will make us all feel like saying, "Cheerio".


Mr. GREEN:: There can be no doubt that the first concern of this nation is to wage war until Germany and Japan have been utterly crushed. Sometimes, however, I think we are prone to forget that the waging of war is carried on by young men who sacrifice their lives in many cases or their health in other cases and whose dependents in most cases suffer in one way or another; they make sacrifices, some of which are very great. Therefore, complementary to waging war must be care for the men of the forces and their dependents, both while the men are fighting and afterwards.
The statement made by the King's Prime Ministers, published in this morning's papers, contained one significant paragraph with regard to the fighting men. It read as follows:
To all our armed forces who in many lands are preserving our liberty with their lives . . . we express our admiration and gratitude.
That is a noble and proper sentiment at this time, and I hope that the Canadian House of Commons and the Canadian people will always bear in mind those words "admiration" and "gratitude" when they consider the men who have been doing the fighting for them. I think the attitude of the Canadian people at the present time is much like the attitude shown in that statement. People are seeing the wounded come back from Italy; almost every week a train pulls in in some part of Canada with wounded from the front. We are seeing sick Canadians come back in large numbers. It is really amazing how many men have been discharged from our forces as medically unfit. The minister will correct me if I am wrong, but there must be nearly one hundred thousand young Canadians who have been discharged from the forces because they are medically unfit.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Up to March 31 of this year 129,000, I think.


Howard Charles Green: Some of those were not medically unfit.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No; 94,000 medically unfit.


Howard Charles Green: It is going to take a great deal of patience on the part of those of us who have had to remain at home if these young men are to be properly reestablished in civilian life, and a great deal of determination and resolution on our part to see that they do get reestablished. Perhaps it will take a

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good deal of sacrifice in the way of payment of taxes and in many other ways; but surely the Canadian people will see to it that these young men get a proper start and that those who are disabled are adequately cared for throughout the rest of their lives, and that their dependents are adequately cared for also.
Then there is the attitude of the men themselves to be considered. It seems to me that it is of great importance to have these young men feel that they are being dealt with fairly. If they feel that they are getting a fair chance, that the country is really trying to help them out, I am sure that they will make a great contribution to the life of the nation. But at the present time they are not getting a fair chance in many respects. Take this question of the clothing allowance which has been raised by several hon. members this afternoon and on many other occasions in this house by hon. members of all parties. I do pot think it can be questioned that $65 is insufficient to enable men to get a civilian outfit. The result is that when a soldier is given $65 he walks back into civil life feeling that he has had a raw deal, a shabby deal. He starts his civilian life with that impression, and I think that is very serious. It has a very bad effect on the men who have to go back into civilian life. The same is true of the rehabilitation allowance. I would urge the minister to bring down their gratuity legislation without further delay and provide for a proper rehabilitation allowance for the men who are being discharged. Every day that is lost in bringing down this measure means that perhaps a hundred more men are being discharged feeeling they are not getting a fair rehabilitation grant. That is very bad for the country.
It does seem to me that the government has been very slow in getting rehabilitation plans under way and that there is a tendency to go just far enough to save face, and only to go that far after there has been considerable prodding and coaxing. Now is the time to remedy that whole situation. Now is the time to lay a proper foundation for the care of the men and their dependents.
I was very much impressed by the debate which took place in the British House of Commons last July on the question of pensions for the men who have been disabled in this war. That debate was quite lengthy, and hon. members who are interested will find it in volume 391 of the British Hansard, commencing on page 715. The principal speech was made by Sir John Anderson, the lord president of the council, who was discussing a memorandum that had been brought down
dealing with changes in war pensions. It is called a white paper and is described as command paper No. 6459, dated July, 1943. The British have made changes in their provision for entitlement to pension. A few days ago, in referring to the speech made by my seat-mate, the hon. member for Greenwood, the minister said that the Canadian pension provisions were far ahead of the British provisions, but in at least one respect I think we are behind and should lose no time in catching up. Sir John Anderson explained some of the new features of the British pension law at page 718 of this volume of British Hansard, in these words:
In the redraft we include certain novel features, entirely in the interests o.f the claimants. In the first .place, we establish two presumptions. The first presumption-I am putting this in non-technieal language-is that a man's condition as recorded on his admission to the service was in fact his condition at that time. The second is that any subsequent deterioration in his condition was due to his service.
They also established a benefit of the doubt
provision, so that there were the two changes made in entitlement under the British pension law. Of course Canada has had a benefit of the doubt section for many years, and I am going to read it to hon. members. It is section 62 of the Pension Act:
Notwithstanding anything in this act, on any application for pension the applicant shall be entitled to the benefit of the doubt, which shall mean that it shall not be necessary 'for him to adduce conclusive proof of his right to the pension applied for, but the body adjudicating on the claim shall be entitled to draw and shall draw from all the circumstances of the case, the evidence adduced and medical opinions, all reasonable inferences in favour of the applicant.
In effect, that means there is no onus of proof on the claimant, and as far as it goes it is very good. The provision which the British now have in their pension law reads:
In no case shall there be an onus on any claimant under this our warrant to prove the fulfilment of the conditions set out in paragraph (1) and the benefit of any reasonable doubt shall be given to the claimant.
So that these two provisions are practically identical. But we have no provision in the Canadian pension law for presumptions, such as the British introduced last summer. The . wording of the royal warrant with regard to presumptions is as follows:
Where an injury or disease rvhich has led to a member's discharge or death during war service was not noted in a medical report made on that member on the commencement of his war service, a certificate under paragraph (1) -
That means a certificate of entitlement.
-shall be given unless the evidence shows that the conditions set out in that paragraph are not fulfilled.
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In other words, as Sir John Anderson said, they have now established the two presumptions. They are not absolute presumptions; they can be rebutted by the ministry of pensions, but they have established the two presumptions, that at the time of acceptance the man was fit for the kind of service demanded of a man in that medical category, and second, in the event of his being subsequently discharged on medical grounds, that any deterioration in his health which has taken place is due to his service. I suggest to the committee that our pension law should be' changed to include these presumptions. In this war the men enlisting have had far more thorough examinations than was the case in the last, and there have been many more discharges for medical reasons, particularly for illness, as a result of the health of the men breaking down. Presumptions of this type would1 be particularly helpful in the case of disease. At the present time it is almost impossible for a man who has been discharged through sickness to prove that his disability arose out of or was directly connected with his service. That is the way our pension law reads in the case of service in Canada, that the applicant must prove that the disability arose out of or was directly connected with his service. So that I advocate, and I ask hon. members to consider seriously, the amendment of the Pension Act at this session in order to insert these two presumptions.
The British have made a change also in regard to pensioning men injured as a result of accidents. They have gone quite far, I think much farther than we have gone in Canada. Hon. members will find that dealt with also in this white paper, and I am going to read the provision with respect to accidents:
At present most accidents sustained by members of the forces are regarded as attributable to war service but there are four main categories not so regarded. They are:
, (a) Accidents sustained whilst "walking out" in spare time;-
I presume that would mean a man walking out from his military camp.
(b)	Accidents sustained whilst travelling to and from home on short pass, i.e.. leave of not ni0r? "an forty-eight hours duration (unless the leave is of a compassionate nature);
(c)	Accidents sustained whilst travelling to or from duty when the member has been allowed to live in accommodation privately arranged;
(d)	Accidents sustained whilst actually on leave.
Then the white paper goes on to say:
His Majesty's government 'has decided that under war conditions accidents in categories (a), (b) and (c) can reasonably be regarded as attributable to service. The position of accidents in category (d)-
[Mr. Green. [
That is, while a man is on leave.
-is different. In these eases the compulsions of service play no part and an accident sustained in such circumstances cannot properly be regarded as attributable to service.
Sir John Anderson also dealt with the change in the provisions in the case of accidents. Hon. members will find his explanation at page 722 of the British Hansard, where he said:
We are giving the fullest possible application of the doctrine that a service man places himself wholly and unreservedly at the disposal of the state during his service and we are covering everything with one exception. The one exception not covered is the case of the man who goes on leave, "who is for the time 'being entirely released from his obligation to the state and is just as free as anyone else to do what he likes. If in those circumstances a man in his home falls off a pair of steps while hanging a picture on the wall, and injures himself, he is treated just like a civilian in respect of that injury and not like a soldier.
During the course of the debate one reason given for not covering a man who might fall off a stepladder while hanging a picture was that he would be covered by the social legislation in Britain; of course in Canada that would not be the case; here the poor chap would be just out of luck. However, the British have made this provision for accidents, and I think the time has come when section 11, subsection 2, of the Pension Act should be changed to wipe out any reference to military service in Canada. I realize that it would still be the proper provision for men in the peace-time forces.
At the present time it covers two groups, mea in the war who serve in Canada, and men in the forces in peace time. I think the time has come when there should be a change, and when the provision in section 11 (2), restricting men who are serving in Canada, should be deleted. I do not wish to repeat the arguments offered this afternoon by other hon. members, but I am firmly convinced that the insurance principle should be reestablished for the men in Canada. I advocated that throughout the meetings of the special committee on pensions which sat in 1941 but. unfortunately, at that time I did not receive very much support. The committee found against me. However now there can be no doubt the time has come to make the change. That is the second change which I suggest should be made in the Pension Act at this session.
Just the day before yesterday the minister announced changes in the pension law, changes which we have been urging on the government ever since I came to the house in 1936. We have urged them at every session, but have never been able to get very far. However, I

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suppose a late repentance is better than none at all, and I am glad these changes have now been made. I shall not go over them in detail, but briefly , they remove the restrictions upon a widow getting a pension, if she was married after January 1, 1930; they enable the payment of an allowance for a wife who was married after May 1, 1933, and for a child, where such child was born after that date.
But the difficulty is this: These changes- and there are others, as well-have been made by order in council, under the War Measures Act. I do not understand why that was done. It seems to me that it should have been done through an amendment to the Pension Act, so that the changes would be permanent. As conditions are at the present time, when the war is over, the War Measures Act will no longer be in operation, and these beneficial changes will expire, unless some special provision is made. I do urge upon the minister that he have the Pension Act amended to provide the presumptions, to restore the insurance principle for men who serve in Canada, and to include the changes which have just been made by order in council.
Then there are two or three other matters which should be dealt with by the government. Take the questions of clothing allowance and rehabilitation allowance. I urge that if these allowances are increased, any increases should be made retroactive. It would not be fair to make the change, say, at the 1st of June, and not have the increased allowance given to the man who was discharged on January 1.
Then when a man is disabled, wounded or becomes ill he is sent to hospital, and the arm}'- gets rid of him just as quickly as possible by turning him over to the Department of Pensions and National Health. I do not think a line should be drawn there. Surely a man should not be discharged from the army, the navy or the air force until his medical rehabilitation is complete, and he is in such condition that he can return to civilian life on pension, if he has not been cured, or can go back to carry on his normal work. The minister may say that that involves difficulties in administration, but I suggest that the approach is wrong. The soldier should be treated as a soldier until he returns to civilian life. Let the army, the air force, the navy and the Department of Pensions and National Health work out among themselves the necessary administrative arrangements. Do not discharge a man from the army to the Department of Pensions and National Health. It would be much fairer if he continued as a soldier, at his regular pay and allowances until returned to civilian life
Then, one final matter I would bring to the attention of the minister has to do with men in the veterans guard. These men are getting old. I do not know what the average age among them would be, but many of them must have reached fifty-five or sixty years. If they have disabilities upon discharge from the veterans guard they would, of course, be entitled to pension. But let us suppose that they are discharged as physically fit-as most of them probably would be. Under those circumstances it will be very difficult for those men to become reestablished at that age, especially if they have been in the veterans guard for two or three years. It would be almost impossible for them to get anything to do when .they leave the army. I do not think it would be fair to force them to accept war veterans' allowances, and it certainly would not be fair to force them to accept relief. I believe that some provision will have to be made for a service pension high enough to permit them to carry on under decent living conditions. This is a question which I think has never before been mentioned in the house, but it is one which must be faced. I do not think members of the veterans guard will be adequately covered by the present provisions for men discharged from the forces.
These are some of the suggestions I place before the minister and the government. I do urge the minister-and perhaps he does not need it as much as some other members of the ministry-that these men of ours must be treated not only fairly but generously. I do not believe that we can possibly repay them and their dependents for the sacrifices which are being made. In my opinion that is the feeling of the Canadian people at large. I repeat, therefore, that they must be treated not only fairly, but also generously.


Mr. GILLIS:: I agree with those who advocate reinstatement of the insurance principle, and I shall not repeat any of the arguments which have been offered. The minister will recall that on the pensions committee in 1940 I was one of those most vigorously opposed to the removal of the insurance principle.
In our rush to bring in orders in council covering every matter raised in the house, and to try to anticipate the criticisms we may receive in the country, there is the danger of repeating the performance of the twenty odd years between the two wars, when the Department of Pensions and National Health of the federal government was made a very convenient spot at which to dump problems affecting indigents. The result was that in the period between the two wars we paid
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very little attention to social security matters that are and must be separate and apart from war pensions.
I have listened to the discussion we have had and I have read over the many proposals that have been made by the Department of Pensions and National Health in connection with the whole problem of reconstruction and rehabilitation. I am afraid we are still thinking in those terms. It is my considered opinion that the rehabilitation of the ex-service personnel of this war is closely related to the whole reconstruction problem. I am convinced also that if the national income of Canada is not maintained, if there is not full employment in the country in the aftermath of the war, many of these things enacted by orders in council will not be fulfilled. We must keep our minds geared to the main problem of total reconstruction if results are going to be realistic.
In considering jobs for service personnel when the war is over we must also remember that in this country we have a million and a half workers engaged in war industry. They will also be coming back looking for jobs in peace-time industry. They are definitely a responsibility of ours in the matter of reconstruction. In considering the training and rehabilitation of service personnel following the cessation of hostilities, we shall .have to consider this group in the matter of training and so forth. In considering the whole field of social security problems we shall have to be careful to relate to the Department of Pensions and National Health only those matters that belong to it. I am concerned, as is the hon. member for Vancouver East.


An hon. MEMBER:: Vancouver South.


Howard Charles Green: Do not get us mixed up.


Clarence Gillis: Yes, Vancouver South; the hon. member for Vancouver East is on his way to Australia.
Very important matters are introduced by way of order in council. Immediately after the war is over, these orders in council will become null and void. Unless the act is amended many of these measures will have no meaning. I agree with the hon. member for Vancouver South when he says that before the session adjourns the pensions committee should be called together to deal with matters coming within the scope of the Pension Act in order that legislation may be passed to place these within the machinery of pensions and national health so that there may be no doubt about many of the important things now covered by orders in council.
I should like to say something about the administration of the whole programme. It

looks nice on paper and I think it was honestly evolved, but legislation of this kind will be of no value to the country unless the necessary machinery to implement it is placed at the disposal of those who have to do with providing benefits for the service personnel.
I am going to stress something with which I think the minister has had a lot to do but which he may have forgotten at this time. Provision has been made for vocational training of service personnel and the providing of certain rights. When we consider the economy of Canada as a whole, these regulations may be quite fair, but there are sections of the country where they will be of absolutely no value. I wish to refer for a moment to Nova Scotia, a one-industry province and that industry a heavy one. The minister will remember that during the period between the two wars when we tried to give effect to the legislation that then existed we had a certain problem to contend with in the field of employment, vocational training, assessment of pensions and other matters related thereto. A man may return to Ontario and Quebec partly disabled. The medical author-ites determine that he has a ten per cent disability and he is pensioned accordingly. He may be able to go out and find employment and thus augment his pension. But take a man returning to Nova Scotia. His disability is diagnosed by the medical authorities as a ten per cent, fifteen per cent or twenty per cent disability. In effect, in that province he has a 100 per cent disability because he would not be able to take employment in a steel plant or a coal mine. The same thing is happening in this war as happened in the last war.
I appeared before pensions tribunals on many occasions when they came to Nova Scotia to try outstanding cases. They agreed with me and I think they recommended that some administrative latitude should be given the commission with respect to that particular province. In Nova Scotia a man cannot pick up a job as a doorman, an elevator operator or in a beer parlour, because we have nothing of that sort. It is exclusively a heavy industry province. I have had twenty years' experience in trying to make the old pension machinery work in that particular field of employment.
We are up against the same thing in the matter of vocational training. There have been no additions to vocational training facilities in that province since the outbreak of the war with the exception of a small industrial school which was established in New Glasgow and which I believe was supported to some

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extent by the Clark Ruse aircraft people. Recently this school was closed when the aircraft plant at Dartmouth was closed. Service personnel returning to that province find that they cannot get vocational training in their own province.
There is another handicap which is faced by the service personnel of that part of the country, and which may also be faced by service personnel from other parts. Any man who wants to take vocational training must have passed the eighth grade, and many applications are being rejected on that basis. Vocational training will have to be augmented by providing elementary education to those who are in that position. Otherwise a large percentage of the personnel returning from this war will not be able to take advantage of vocational training. As I say, while this is true of Nova Scotia I assume that it also applies generally across the country. While the regulations may look all right and sound all right from the point of view of the general economy of the country, they are nevertheless very restrictive in that particular area.
Two new departments are being set up. A press release was issued by the wartime information board which led me to believe that the Department of Pensions and National Health was to be abolished completely when the new departments were set up, its functions being taken over by the new departments. The release is headed "Post-wair Planning Information", and on page 6 I find this:
A change in the administration of rehabilitation is also to be made. On April 17, 1944, the Prime Minister introduced in the House of Commons a bill to establish a Department of Veterans' Affairs. The new department will take over all the rehabilitation functions of the Department of Pensions and National Health, and will also take over from the Department of Mines and Resources the administration of the Veterans' Land Act. The other functions of the	Department	of	Pensions	and	National
Health will be taken over >by a new Department of Social Welfare.
The statement	that the other functions of
the	Department	of	Pensions	and	NationalHealth would be taken over by the new Department of Social Welfare led me to believe that it was the intention to fold up the	Department	of	Pensions	and	National
Health as it now stands, and to pass over to the new Department of Social Welfare all problems of service personnel with respect to pensions, hospitalization and so forth.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: All affairs pertaining to ex-service men will be under the Department of Veterans' Affairs.


Clarence Gillis: I am very glad to hear that because I got the impression from this release
that the whole load of social security legislation was going to' be absorbed by the department, which would mean that we would have a repetition of the condition of affairs that we had between the two wars. The release i3 misleading.
With respect to the two new departments that are to be created, I have in my hand a memorandum from the Amalgamated Civil Servants of Canada protesting against the manner in which appointments are to be made. I have no doubt the minister has seen it and I do not want to take up time by reading it. The organization points out, and I think properly so, that we have established in this country the merit system, whereby through the machinery of the civil service commission important positions of the kind to be created in these new departments are to be filled on the merit system. But bill No. 83. to establish a Department of Veterans' Affairs, definitely sets out that the new department may be staffed "notwithstanding anything contained in the Civil Service Act".


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It is word for word as it is in the present act and has been since 1928.


Clarence Gillis: Maybe that is why the Civil Service Act is not working so well. I agree with this protest. I believe myself in filling important positions of this kind by examination, and without any regard to patronage, favouritism or anything of that sort. The right man for the job is the man who is qualified for the job, and in setting up the new department the minister should have due regard to that principle.
I am a little bit fearful of this attitude that is developing in Canada that when the war is over everything belongs exclusively to the ex-service men. I think that is the wrong attitude to cultivate because the problems of the ex-service men are definitely wrapped up with the whole future of this dominion. We should have a programme for their complete rehabilitation, with every one of them having the right to work and make his maximum contribution to the welfare of the country'. It is wrong to build up in the minds of the men the idea that when they come back they are to be adopted and given everything in the country, without making any contribution themselves. I think that in setting up the new departments the terms of the Civil Service Act should be adhered to rigidly, including that provision in the act which gives certain preferences to returned service personnel, other things being equal.
I wish to support what the hon. member for Melfort has said with respect to the five new health centres that are to be established
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in Canada, three of them in Ontario. Of course, there are a lot of votes in Ontario. Another health centre is to be established in Quebec. But the maritime provinces are left completely out of the picture, as are the two central western provinces. I wrote the minister some two months ago that I had seen the announcement of the establishment of these health centres and that none was provided for the maritimes, and the minister wrote me that he would check up on the announcement since it definitely looked like discrimination. Our people in that part of the country are much concerned over it. These health centres are to be, I undferstand, something in the nature of convalescent homes. Well, Mr. Chairman, as you know, we have a large number from the maritimes in this war too; some of them are now fighting in Italy, and some are likely to get hurt and will require hospitalization when they get back. I think it would be a nice thing if we had somewhere in the centre of the maritime provinces one of these convalescent or vocational homes where our people could go and visit those who were obliged to recuperate in these homes during their period of incapacity. I should like the minister to comment on that suggestion when he makes his reply because it does look definitely like discrimination. I can recommend a very nice spot in Nova Scotia for that kind of health centre. It is not in my riding, but it is close to where the hon. member for Colchester-Hants comes from. Some time when the minister gets down to establishing a health centre in the maritimes he might consult the hon. member for Colchester-Hants and myself.
As to the assessment for pensions, I agree with what other hon. members have said. The present system is anything but fair and just. It may be that the machinery, is not adequate or complete. I know the Department of Pensions and National Health is understaffed to handle the problems coming before it to-day, and I appealed to the Minister of National Defence when his estimates were up to allow some of the medical boards that are now around the district depots to help the Department of Pensions and National Health.
I should like to mention, without giving the name or number, one outstanding case. This man served eighteen months overseas. He was invalided home as medically unfit. He had a medical board, which diagnosed his trouble as duodenal ulcer, and the decision of the commission was, "Pre-enlistment condition. Wilfully concealed on enlistment. Aggravated three-fifths in a theatre of actual war overseas. Pensioned accordingly." I cannot understand

how the board could arrive at that decision. If this man had that stomach condition when he enlisted, how could he conceal it, and why should he wish to conceal it? If he had that condition on enlistment, how could he serve with it for eighteen months overseas? The training is hard and tough and the food requires a fairly good stomach to digest it. But after serving for eighteen months overseas this man was invalided back to Canada and the medical board decided that he had concealed the ulcer on enlistment.
That kind of administration of the act in times like these leaves much to be desired. There are a good many decisions of that sort. This definition of disability not attributable to military service is causing a lot of difficulty. A man comes back from overseas, as this man did, with a disability which, it is decided, is not attributable to service; and it seems to me that some men take the attitude that unless a German has sneaked up on you, stuck a bayonet in you and you have a big hole to show for it, your disability is not incurred on service. I hope that as the machinery is developed and the administration becomes more experienced and more men come back from overseas who have actually seen service, there will be a fairer administration of the whole thing.
There is another matter which I bring to the minister's attention because I think it important, although I am not going to labour it. I picked up an article in the Magazine Digest of March, 1944, written by Paul Winterton, Moscow correspondent of the London News Chronicle, setting out the facts concerning a new serum developed by Soviet scientists which, according to the article-perhaps the minister has seen it-


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Clarence Gillis: -is a guaranteed cure for neuritis, arthritis and similar conditions. These disabilities are very prevalent among ex-service and service personnel. In the wet climate of the old country, and particularly as a result of standing in trenches, there is quite a lot of it. I took the trouble to get in touch with the Soviet embassy at Ottawa and to write to their representative in New York, and I have information to the effect that this serum may possibly be made available in Canada. Go to your pensions and national health hospitals across Canada and see what a large number of veterans of the last war are suffering from, and many of them tangled up and crippled by, this disability. I bring the matter to the minister's attention, although he is aware of it, in the hope that there may be some contact between the Canadian and the Soviet government with

War Appropriation-Pensions and, Health
the result of making this serum available in Canada in the interests of service personnel returning from this war and veterans of the last war who have suffered and are suffering from this condition.
As to the unemployment insurance contribution which is made by the government, we were led to believe that the government paid the total contribution and that when a service man came out of the army, navy or air force, and took employment in an insured industry, he was protected from the day his employment began. The minister will remember that at the last session I brought to his attention several cases which arose in Waterford, Nova Scotia. A number of service men were released to go into the coal mines, but because of a disaster there a number of them were immediately unemployed, and when they applied for unemployment insurance they found they were not eligible because it was required that they should be employed for ninety days in an insurable industry and have made a contribution themselves, or they did not come under the scope of the act. The minister was astonished at these circumstances, as was also the Minister of Labour; they did not know the regulation operated in that way, and both of them stated at that time that they were going to check up on the matter and perhaps have some changes made. I think a change should be made. That was, perhaps, an isolated and outstanding case which might not happen again; nevertheless numbers of men are leaving the army to-day and taking employment. They may work in an aircraft plant, and after a short time there is a lay-off for re-tooling of the industry, with the result that they are out for a month or six weeks looking for a job, and they do not come under the scope of the act. Men are also handicapped by other regulations. They start looking for out-of-work benefits, and we immediately see a runaround which takes months to straighten out. I believe the quickest and fairest way of curing this situation is to amend the Unemployment Insurance Act so that these cases will be within its scope, because if the government is to make a contribution at all it should be 100 per cent. To place men in the position I have referred to is absolutely unfair, and the effects will be even worse when the war is over, because a lot of industry will be on the change and shift. Representation should be made by the pensions department to the authorities responsible for administering unemployment insurance to have this regulation changed so as to protect, from this time on, those coming out of the army.


Mr. HATFIELD:: The minister has stated that hearing aids will be available to men returning from the present war. I should like to know if the same aids are available to returned men of the last war, and under what conditions.	.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Under the same conditions, I understand.


Heber Harold Hatfield: To whom should application be made?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: To the nearest branch of the Department of Pensions and National Health.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: I agree with all that other hon. members have said about the insurance principle in connection with pensions. I do not think I need to say any more on that. But I do wish to say something about another feature of this matter. It is disheartening when a young man comes back from overseas incapacitated and after examination is told that he had a pre-enlistment disability which was wilfully concealed. It is hard on these young fellows. We know that probably some of them did their best to conceal some disabilities when they first went overseas. They thought it was their duty and those little disabilities were nothing and would not amount to anything. After all, they had a medical examination and it was up to the medical doctors who examined them at that time to find out what was wrong. I agree with hon. members who have said that when a man enlisted his condition should be assumed to be what was shown on his papers, and not something else. That is the basis on which a pension should be granted. We must remember that there are others in different circumstances. I know two or three cases of what we might call congenital disabilities. I know one man who was examined by a reputable doctor. They tried to show that he did not have this, but he did have it, that is all. They finally found out that he had a congenital disability. He did his job for the country, and that is all there is to it. He certainly is entitled to his pension, I mention, that just in passing.
For years we have been trying to better the position of the war widows. The hon. minister knows on many occasions we tried to get justice for those people, and I am glad to see that at last they are to have a little justice.
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Another thing that I want to take up is the question of rehabilitation, particularly of the men who come back from the war and go into Christie street hospital. One of those lads asked to see the head of the rehabilitation, Mr. Kidd. There were not so many of the fellows around there that he could not see this young lad, but he sent someone else. That is not the way in which these young lads should be treated. They should be treated in a more diplomatic way; and from what I gathered when I was at Christie street hospital the other day, things are not right in connection with the situation there. Everything should be done, to satisfy these men. Everything should be done to see that they get back into their jobs. One thing that did not please them was the allowance of $42.20. That has now been raised to $65 for a single man. That is a help. The $62.40 has now been raised to $80. That will help a good deal as well. But take the case of the young lad who gave up high school to go into the army. He has been in the army for four and a half years, and is now back in the city and he wants to know what he is to do. The officials do not go about this matter in the right way. Everything possible should be done to treat these men like human beings. They should not be ordered around like a lot of kids, or something of that kind. Certainly the way in which it is being done there at the present time is not right.
The men who are in the hospital waiting for discharge and rehabilitation had the feeling of "Oh, well, what is the use?" Something has to be done about the matter. Some more care has to be taken in, connection, with it. I do not want to go into it ad nauseam, but one of those fellows told me if he had not been wearing the uniform he would not have taken what was handed out to him by a man who was supposed to have the interests of the boys at heart. That is the situation. More care must be taken in the selection of men who are to be on this rehabilitation committee. Things are not right despite all the publicity given to the rehabilitation committee. All this talk about what they are doing is just bunk. It has to be changed.
Another matter is the question of men going back into employment. The law says' that they are to go back to a position which is no worse than the one they would have had if they had not gone to war. What is the result? They are not getting justice. I do not know whether this matter comes under the minister's department or some other department, but I am bringing it up now to see that something is done about it.

The next thing I should like to mention is the Christie street hospital. It was said here by the hon. member for Trinity and the hon. member for Parry Sound that nothing had been done about it in all these years. When the building was first purchased it was the best thing that-could be done at that time. I certainly think that is all there was to it. Casualties w'ere coming in and something had to be done. But there is no excuse for having kept the hospital all those years and not doing something about it. We were not in a war at that time and I suppose it was thought that some other change would be made. Anyway, the hospital is not suitable for the purpose for which it is used. I do not know what arrangements the government have made for the casualties which will be coming back. On November 11 last we were invited to go out to Sunnybrook farm. We thought that at last that something was going to be done. We were very much heartened. We had a big gathering out there. Everybody had invitations. We had bands, and so forth. There we were out at Sunnybrook farm, a great gathering and very cheery. I remember quite well-


An hon. MEMBER:: Any liquor?


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Oh, there is that desk-thumper again, I remember quite well how everybody was heartened when the minister was handed a lovely silver spade with his name engraved on it. I thought, by golly, how I should like to be right in his position, starting in to dig that foundation. Really, what we should have had instead of the minister up there digging-he did the best he could with his ability and with his little spade -was some darned good steam shovels. That is what we should have had. What the people of Toronto and of this country want is action. It is all very well to have those ceremonies and speeches from the throne and all the window-dressing all the way down the line, references to the millions and millions of things to be done, but action is what is wanted. We want to know what is to be done and liow these young fellows are to be taken care of. The hospitals in Toronto are crowded to-day. The General hospital has a waiting list of something like four hundred. The Western hospital has a waiting list of something like 250. All the other hospitals are in the same position. You cannot get into one unless you are nearly dying. Something must be done. We do not want just promises; we want action.
Christie street hospital is not the place to take care of these men. I know a lot of work has been done on it, and it has been improved to a certain extent, but there is not going to be room there even for these fellows, and the

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
condition under which these boys have to be treated is just too bad. Something must be done about it.	.
Then I should like to say a word about soldiers who are on leave. It has been said that when a soldier is on leave he is on his own, but we must remember that if that soldier gets run over or hurt in any way he has no way of taking care of himself. We have no social security in this country for him; he is not able to take out accident insurance, because the companies will not issue such policies to men in the forces and that is all there is to it. A soldier is just as much in the forces when he is away on leave as when he is in camp. It is part of his job to go away on leave, to get rested up again and rehabilitate himself. Therefore it seems to me that he is under military discipline all the time he is in the army and that it is up to the country to take care of him.
I cannot usefully add anything at the present time, but later on I may have something else to say. I do, however, want that hospital started. We do not want to go up there again next November and have the minister take out another piece of sod. It will take a good many million years to build the hospital if we are to have i done a spadeful a year; and we do not want promises.


Mr. POULIOT:: First may I say that the
minister of this department is one of the most likeable of the hon. gentlemen who adorn the treasury benches; I hope he will not put me under the painful necessity of withdrawing that remark. This is said to be the pensions branch of the Department of Pensions and National Health. It should not be so; it should be called "veterans' affairs." We have before us now a bill to divide this department in two, to make twins of it, and this item should be under the pompous name of the new department. In the new order there will be no pensions; there will be veterans' affairs, and these estimates should be designated accordingly.
This item is for an amount of $9,000,000, as compared with $4,225,000 last year. It does not take into consideration pensions paid to veterans of the last war, which should be under this item. There is no possible reason for putting pensions paid to veterans of the first world war among the civilian estimates, while these pensions come under the war appropriation. All military pensions should be considered in the same way; the only difference between the last war and this one is that the veterans of the last war got pensions while the veterans of this war are getting none. They are getting allowances. I denounce most bitterly and with the great-100-190
est vigour the actions of the pensions board who always deny the claims of returned men for pensions. The minister said to me, "We will change the law, if under the law as it stands it is impossible to grant a pension to a man." I say that is not necessary, that we need only apply the law according to its letter and spirit in order that the men may receive the pensions to which they are entitled. During the last war many promises were made by the union government. Men who enlisted were told that they would receive, in the form of pensions, compensation for disabilities suffered during or resulting from their service. The life of a man in the army, the air force or the navy is most exacting. Very often a man is classified, on discharge, as absolutely fit, when actually he is not, when he may have a predisposition to a certain illness or disability resulting from the fact that he has lived a most strenuous life during the years of war. That should be taken into consideration. Many men think they are fit when they leave the army when in fact they are not; it is not until five or ten years after their discharge that they suffer a disabiltiy which perhaps they never would have suffered at all, or would not have suffered until much later, if they had not served in the army. That has to be taken into consideration. It has been my experience that many men who were qualified for pensions never received them because they were told they had applied too late. That is not a good reason.
There is another matter I should like to bring to the kind attention of the minister. Take the case of a young man in the army. He is exposed to cold weather; he contracts a cold which is not properly looked after; it degenerates into bronchitis; his lungs are affected, and he puts in a claim for a pension. The first answer he receives is, "Your illness is not attributable to your military service." Then he is told that he has the right to appeal from this decision, and that he may get in touch with a certain gentleman, a lawyer appointed to look after the interests of the soldiers. He does so, but still he is not successful. There was an orgy of pensions after the, last war, and I wonder why the boards should be so stingy now in allowing pensions to men who deserve them. And, worse than that, it is within my knowledge that men have been told, "Resign from the army, and you will go home." Take the young man who is at camp, under doctors who are not under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Pensions and National Health. Some of them are only blacksmiths; some are men who are the scum of the learned faculty, men who would have no clients if


Mr. BRUCE:: Mr. Chairman, I make no apology for speaking at this time upon a matter which is causing such devastation, not only in our armed forces but in the civilian population. I refer to venereal diseases. A few weeks ago two young naval ratings under nineteen years of age complained to me in Toronto that when they were returning to their quarters at the exhibition grounds at night they were accosted by women hanging around the Prince's gate. Only to-day a young airman who had recently spent a couple of days in my home town told me that only three-quarters of an hour after he had reached his hotel room he was called up three times by women whom he did not know to see whether they could come up to his room. This situation is sufficiently serious to justify some consideration at this time. There is a lack of proper control, especially in the larger hotels, over the activities of professionals and, even worse, of amateurs. This has become nothing less than a scandal.
May I refer to an article which appeared in Maclean's magazine of February 15, 1944, written by Mr. Blair Fraser. In it he speaks of venereal disease as saboteur No. 1. Hon. members will remember the illustration that appeared at the top of his article. Among other things, he says:
Lieutenant-Colonel Donald H. Williams, who for the past year has been chief venereal disease control officer for Canada, estimates that possibly 300,000 Canadians have syphilis and that 10 .per cent, or 30,000 of these will die of it.
In the services, of course, the statistics are precise, although the 35,000 total quoted is a computed figure. In spite of numerous requests no recent figures on VD incidence had been published when this article was written.
The figures he gave for the air force show 2-1 new cases per 1,000 per month. In the army there were 4 new cases per 1,000 per month and in the navy 5-29 new cases. Multiplying those monthly rates by twelve we get an incidence per 1,000 of 25-2 in the air force, 48 in the army and 63-4 in the navy. I am 100-1901
glad to be able to say that the army established a department of venereal disease control a little over a year ago and appointed Colonel D. H. Williams as director. He has associated with him liaison officers for the air and navy. His work now extends across Canada. It is interesting to note that Colonel Williams has recently been appointed adviser for the British government on venereal disease control for the Anglo-American Caribbean commission, which will take him to Jamaica and other islands in the Caribbean sea.
The control which the army and air force have now put into effect has resulted in a great reduction ,in the incidence of venereal disease. Our aim now should be the mobilization of the civilian population in a venereal disease control programme. There should be blood tests made in industry as well as beforemarriage. In order to give something of a comprehensive and brief account of the situation with regard to this disease, I am first going to the western coast, to British Columbia, where the first and best work on the control of venereal diseases has been done. I am sure the minister will be interested to know this, although he probably knows it already.
In the Pacific command where a good civilian programme of venereal disease control has been in force over a period of years, the venereal disease rate in the Canadian army forces stationed in that area has since the beginning of the war been consistently in the neighbourhood of one-half of that for the rest of Canada, and one-quarter of what it is in certain sections of the country. In a review of the whole situation certain factors emerge which indicate why British Columbia has led the field in venereal disease control, factors which may serve as a pattern for control in other parts of Canada. Briefly they are as follows:
1.	British Columbia has provided modern facilities for the diagnosis and treatment of venereal disease. The clinics have been made attractive in order to encourage attendance,, and courteous service is rendered at all times. A social service department is maintained, not only to trace contacts but to assist patients in making satisfactory adjustments. A comprehensive record system is another feature,-without which a venereal disease control clinic cannot trace its contacts and cannot measure the success of its efforts.
2.	There is in British Columbia a relatively high standard of living reinforced by progressive social service measures. I wish strongly to emphasize the fact that the fight against venereal disease is a fight against squalor, slums, overcrowding, bad housing, hunger, neglect and insecurity.
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Mr. DUPUIS:: Caused by law wages.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: Yes, I have na doubt that is quite true, and I hope it will not exist after the war.


Vincent Dupuis: And some of it comes from Toronto.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: 3. It is quite clear that the public health authorities in British Columbia recognized that the education of the public was vitally necessary if the programme were to be successful. A separate department was established for the purpose; the hush-hush attitude toward venereal disease was dispelled and the facts were made known. "
4.	With an enlightened public there was community support of the different methods employed to control venereal disease, particularly in regard, to law enforcement. It must be remembered, however, that while venereal disease is a problem of national concern the conditions which facilitate its spread are essentially local, and in the main local action is necessary to meet these conditions. I am informed that the Greater Vancouver Health League, the Vancouver Junior Board of Trade and the Vancouver Council of Social Agencies were and are continuing to be of [DOT]great assistance to venereal disease control .authorities in British Columbia. Might I [DOT] urge that similar voluntary groups throughout [DOT]*Canada be encouraged to participate in a >national programme.
5.	One cannot examine the British Columbia {programme without realizing the importance iof effective law enforcement in controlling venereal disease. In this regard the salient features were as follows. British Columbia did not make the mistake of directing action solely against the prostitutes when tackling the problem of prostitution. It was realized that the girls are simply the employees of unscrupulous third-party interests who are the "facilitators"-those who derive profit from the business but are seldom brought into [DOT]court. Among these are the "madames", the racketeers and the owners and agents of the bawdy houses. If prostitution in Canada is to be brought to a minimum, with a subsequent reduction in venereal disease, the police authorities must concentrate their efforts on bringing these various facilitators to justice.
I next wish to call attention to the necessity of enlightened attitude of magistrates. The futility of imposing small fines for prostitution offences was also realized in British Columbia. Such a practice is no deterrent to a repetition of the offence, and a civic administration simply places itself in the invidious position of deriving revenue from immoral behaviour.

The realistic attitude is to impose gaol sentences for prostitution offences, so that it may be demonstrated that the community will not tolerate the activities of those individuals who are spreading venereal infection.
To amplify this further I would say that a vicious habit has been growing in Canada in cases where prostitutes are brought before the courts, of magistrates giving them a fine, instead of giving a gaol sentence for the third party. The result of this is to force girls back on the street to earn enough to pay the fine, while nothing is done to punish the people who live on them.
In British Columbia it was shown that certain hotels and rooming houses were making their premises available for sexual exposure resulting in venereal infection. It was also demonstrated that infected pick-ups made a practice of congregating at certain beer parlours, restaurants and dance halls. Other similar establishments had no such record against them, so that it was obviously a question of management. Many businesses responded to the appeal of health authorities to clean up, but for those that failed to cooperate' more vigorous measures were necessary.
In British Columbia it was necessary to recommend that the licences of certain business establishments be suspended or cancelled, since they failed to cooperate with the venereal disease control programme.
I should just like to say here that the credit for all this work in British Columbia is due to Colonel Williams, who is now in charge of the national control of venereal disease.
I wrote to a number of the provincial ministers of health and I should like to quote two or three paragraphs from the replies I received from them. First I will read a portion of the reply from Mr. Cross, Minister of Health of Alberta. I wrote him to see what the situation was in his province, as I did to provincial ministers of health in the other provinces. Mr. Cross says:
The grant made last year by the federal government has been of real value to us. It has enabled us to engage additional epidemiological personnel and our staff last year located and brought under control 73 per cent of all alleged sources of infection in this province. This is the top figure for Canada and I believe is unexcelled on the American continent.
It is .possible to control the venereal diseases, but it requires money to pay for the necessary personnel and it requires provincial, local and municipal police forces which can and will eliminate prostitution.
The figures for syphilis in the gaols in Alberta are interesting. An examination for venereal disease, which includes the blood Wassermann test, has been made on every admission to our gaols since January, 1920. For the year 1920

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the syphilis rate for the gaols was 16 per cent. There has been a steady reduction over the years to a present low of less than 3 per cent. We believe that there has been a corresponding reduction in the population as a whole. The syphilis rate in the gaols is very high because many infected prostitutes are sent there.
From Winnipeg the minister of health of Manitoba writes in part:
Under the present arrangements in Manitoba any individual who cannot afford to pay can receive free treatment for both syphilis and gonorrhoea. In the case of persons residing in the Greater Winnipeg area, such treatment is supplied through a clinic at the St. Boniface General hospital which is subsidized by the department. In the case of persons residing outside of the Greater Winnipeg area we pay the family doctor for treatment given and this under the supervision of our venereal disease control officer.
We believe that all syphilis cases are reported. In Manitoba, all laboratory examinations are done at our own laboratory, and in this way, we have a complete record of positive Wassermanns.
Then he gives details which I do not think I will take time to read.
I have had a reply from Doctor R. P. Vivian, Minister of Health of Ontario, and I wish to read just a few facts which I think are striking:
There have been reported to the department, since the onset of war, more than fifty thousand cases of venereal disease.
In the past seven years, 1937 to 1943 inclusive, a total of almost seventy thousand venereal infections have been reported. More than half of these have been the more serious disease, syphilis, which, if neglected, will continue, in the coming years, to fill hospital beds, mental institutions, and early graves. More important than even this total number of infections is the fact that with every year of the war there has been an increase in the number of oases reported. There were over one thousand more venereal infections reported in Ontario during 1943 than in 1942, making the enormous total of more than 13 thousand in 1943 alone. Some 7 thousand of these were cases of syphilis, and more than half of these were new cases, freshly acquired since the outbreak of war. The most serious fact is that among these 7 thousand people were almost 5 hundred who showed evidence of serious damage to the brain and nervous system.
The importance of this will be recognized when I tell you that, for the past fifteen years, one out of every eighteen persons admitted to our mental hospitals has been a patient until a scarred and riddled brain due to syphilitic infection. But it is not merely adults who have suffered. These figures include a number of tragic cases of little children, born with syphilis, acquired from their infected mothers.
These official figures tell only a small part of the story of this gigantic health problem. From a study of the departmental records, there is ample reason to believe that for every reported case of syphilitic infection there are at least two more people in the Ontario population who have syphilis, wffiich has not been reported, many of whom do not even k now that they are infected. For every reported ease of gonorrhoeal infection, it is believed that as many as four or five other people have this disease.
These cases have not been reported, probably have not been diagnosed, and the treatment has-been neglected.
Hon. members will see at once how very serious it is to have people with that disease going about among the population.
The excessive amount of venereal disease.in Ontario can perhaps be more clearly visualized when I tell you that in Sw-eden, in 1938, the' percentage of syphilis was fourteen persons in. every 100,000 population. In Norway, between the years 1933 and 1939, there were twenty-four people afflicted out of every 100,900. In Ontario, in 1943, there was the staggering total of 175 persons with syphilis per 100,000 population.
That is 12-5 times as many as Sweden and seven times as many as Norway. A new Ontario venereal disease control is being planned with seven important objectives, which I will not take time to give. I should like just to refer to an item published in the Montreal Gazette of February 23 last, which reports as follows:
Blood tests performed on women found in local rooming houses during last week-end's wholesale raids by provincial police resulted in-no less than 33 per cent being declared diseased, it was revealed in police court yesterday.
Of the eighty-four cases for trial, twenty-six: were found suffering from venereal diseases, while twelve of the forty were returned to gaol pending complete cure. Thirty-three per cent showed the blood test for syphilis. That indicates how serious it is to allow these women to be at large. May I express the hope that the provincial police of Ontario as well as the city police of Toronto will follow this splendid example in Quebec and do something about the closing of bawdy houses and dealing more actively with this great menace.
I think I have said enough to indicate the gravity of this disease, so that I will pass on to-something else for a moment. The hon. member for Melfort to-day made reference to the necessity of having convalescent homes throughout Canada, and I want to support his opinion and to say that I think a large number of these convalescent homes should be built. They need not be large, and a number of them could be located in small communities, where the veteran might be near his home. We have an example in Toronto of a charming convalescent home, given by a citizen, Colonel Flanagan, called the Divadale Convalescent home, which was donated to the air force, and where Squadron Leader Doctor Harvey Doney has made a great success of the care of convalescents in the air force.
I do not think it is necessary for me to add anything to what has already been said about Christie street hospital. I am afraid that the minister has become allergic to the name. At
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any rate I suggest that some time later he should give a statement telling the committee and the country what progress is being made with the new institution at Sunnybrook Park. I understand that the plans are well forward. We shall all be interested to hear whether contracts have yet been let, and, if not, when they will be let, and when, it is hoped, the structure will be completed.
I should like to pay a tribute to Miss Judith Robinson, who, in addition to the hon. member for Hastings-Peterborough and the hon. member for St. Paul's, has done such admirable work in calling attention, in her paper News, tc>
the serious situation at Christie street hospital.


Mr. GAUTHIER (Translation):: Mr. Chairman, I have listened carefully to the remarks of the hon. member for Parkdale (Mr. Bruce) in regard to venereal diseases. Tha statistics which he has quoted are more or less encouraging for the people and for those who look after their social and moral welfare. This should convince those who believe that the medical profession may still help our people that physicians, whether they be members of the board of the pensions commission or members of the Department of Health, should use utmost care in the examination of men returning to civilian life, whether they were overseas or whether they were simply called up for home defence, if there are still some of the latter. Indeed, soldiers returning to their positions in civilian life should undergo a most thorough examination. There should be no exceptions. Not a single man so unfortunate as to contract what is called for short V.D. should be allowed to return to civilian life before he has been [DOT]cured and before his cure has been definitely ascertained by frequent and thorough examination.
However, if I rise to-night it is not especially to stress this point. I realize that the alarm has reached the whole population through the repeated warnings of the hon. member for Parkdale, who, being a physician, knows what he is talking about in the field of medical science. I wish to deal more particularly with a case which recurs and must doubtless do so [DOT]every time men come back from overseas after having witnessed bombings such as the city of London has undergone in the first years of the war. This man arrives from overseas suffering from a trouble classified as "shellshock". A man enlists voluntarily or is compelled to enlist voluntarily, as you prefer, it all depends on the circumstances. He is sent overseas and becomes a victim of "shellshock"; he was in class "A" or even "B", before leaving the country. He comes back
I Mr. Bruce. 1
suffering from severe nervous shock which practically makes a physical wreck of him. He returns walking with two canes and he may allow himself to be influenced by arguments such as were referred to by the hon. member for Temiscouata, a while ago. Certain medical officers or other army officials will advise him to sign his discharge papers immediately, so as to return more rapidly to his civilian occupation. If he accepts, he is then classified as a case of "preexistent neurosis." Two years ago, when I was in the army, I had a conversation with a prominent army medical man who told me that a ruling had been made whereby shellshock oases would, in this war, be classified as "preexistent". The expression "preexistent neurosis" is a high-sounding one which means that those who return to this country with that complaint will have no chance to obtain a pension.
Some 'cases have been brought to my attention; for instance, a soldier, father of seven children, who had volunteered in the very first year of the war and had spent twelve months in England under the worst bombings. He was serving with an ambulance and each night he had to leave his camp in the ambulance with the medical officers to attend the wounded under a rain of bombs. On his return here twelve months later he was a physical wreck. It was suggested to him, as the hon. member said a few moments ago, that he would stand a better chance of obtaining a pension if he signed at once, and that his case would be looked after more expeditiously. That is just one case, and I know that there are many. There are some which date from the last war and in this war such cases will of course be more numerous. That man had been put in category "A" and his neuropathic history cannot suggest to any army medical officer that his neurotic condition existed prior to his enlistment. I have personal knowledge of that case.
That man who, on his return, could only walk with two canes, spent three months in hospital, applied for examinations, claimed1 a pension, and was referred to various officials. When I interceded on his behalf, I was told that it was a case of "preexistent neurosis". If that man had a neurotic condition prior to his enlistment how is it that the medical officers who examined him, who no doubt asked him questions and put him through a careful examination, put him in category "A". How could he be classed in that category if he was suffering from neurosis? His medical history does not indicate that he ever had any nervous complaint. He had, however, suffered from infection due to the poor condition of his teeth, w'hich had made

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him nervous for a few weeks but it was not essential neurosis and it could not be preexistent. After that man had withstood bombings during twelve months he was tagged as suffering from preexistent neurosis. If that condition existed prior to his enlistment, how is it that he was put in category "A" and sent overseas? No conscientious physician with a sufficient knowledge of medicine could have put that man in category "A" if he had suffered from neurosis and sent him to withstand bombings. I am not indulging in any bitter criticism, I am simply putting some facts before this house ini order that the minister may take action, if a ruling has been made, without his knowledge, by army medical officers to the effect that a man who returns to this country suffering from a severe nervous breakdown must inevitably be considered as having a preexistent neurotic condition. It is preferable to have at each examination on demobilization a flock of specialists in nervous diseases in order carefully to look into his past life and into his family history, and to ascertain whether the mere burst of a shell may have reawakened a neuropathic condition which could not be detected by three physicians at the time of his enlistment.
Therefore, I ask the department of health, and the minister in particular, to see to it that soldiers placed in category "A", whose medical history does not reveal any serious nervous trouble, but who afterwards become shell shock cases, receive the undivided attention of the medical examiners, and the solicitude of the Department of Pensions and National Health and of the Department of National Defence, and especially the latter, so that these ex-service men, who have done their duty, who have endured their share of sacrifices to defend our liberty, and who have deemed it their duty to volunteer for overseas service, may not find upon their return that the words uttered the other day in England by our Prime Minister were nothing else but words.
The Prime Minister stated, in his speech delivered in England only a few days ago:
We owe it to all who bear the heat of the strife; we owe it to those who are crippled and maimed. . . .
Neurosis is a crippling affection, for even though nervous symptoms are not ever present, the man who suffers from a severe nervous shock, in spite of apparent momentary temporary recovery, is always dangerous. If he works in a factory where accidents are numerous, he becomes a menace to his fellow workers for, on the impact of a sudden emotion or shock he may relapse into this severe neurotic state and provoke accidents among his companions.


Vincent Dupuis: It is incurable?


Pierre Gauthier: I would
not say it is. I know that some cases are incurable, but they are not all incurable.
. . . we owe it to those who are crippled and maimed; we owe it to the many homes that are bereaved; we owe it to the memory of those who give their lives; to do all in our power to ensure that their service and their sacrifice shall not have been in vain.
This man who has enlisted after having been placed in category "A"; who has undergone bombings; who has been exposed to torpedoing in his trips across the ocean; who returns to this country with a promise on the part of the government that his rehabilitation will be taken care of, so he may himself look after his family, knows perfectly well that he will not be in a position to care for his dependents in the same way as before. Although he does not wish for riches, he expects a certain share of the necessities of life. If he suffers from a severe nervous breakdown, with ups and downs, he will not be able to procure the same standards of living for his family. He will be sorely disappointed and cruelly deceived, especially when he is refused a pension.
In the past, the sacrifice of human life in war has been commemorated in monuments of stone or bronze. After this war we must create a more fitting memorial. That, I believe, will -be found only in securing for others the opportunities of a more abundant life.
The returned soldier does not even expect that much; all he wants is to be looked after and decently treated. If, in the past, he has never had any nervous complaints, let us not, after he has been subjected to repeated bombings, tag him as suffering from a neurosis existing before he was placed in category "A" by the army medical officers.
(Text)


Mr. ADAMSON:: During the last few days a book has been published entitled, "When the Boys Come Home", written by Mr. C. N. Senior, one of the senior departmental officials of the ministry. The first paragraph of the chapter on hospitals and medical care contains the information that when the present war broke out no fewer than 2,300 members of the armed forces of the last war were receiving medical care in departmental hospitals. Many of these, of course, were temporary cases, but a number had been receiving hospital treatment continuously during the intervening years. The salient point about it is that at that time, twenty odd years after the end of hostilities in the last war, no fewer than 2,300 ex-service men were undergoing hospitalization.
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That gives us a guide to what we may expect in future, and points to the seriousness of the situation we are facing. At the beginning of the war the department had 2,595 beds available ; at the end of December, 1943, some 4,108 had been added, making a total of 6,703. I mention these figures because I consider the accommodation totally inadequate to meet the casualty lists we must expect, unfortunately, in attacking the fortress of Europe. If the raid on Dieppe is any indication at all, the hospitalization already provided by the department is totally inadequate. Please God that Dieppe may not be an indication, but it has happened and we must be prepared for eventualities.
I am not going into the question of Christie street hospital, but anyone familiar with the conditions that have existed for the last twenty years in connection with the care of permanently incapacitated men cannot feel very proud of his Canadian citizenship. On November 11 last I, together with many others, saw the minister turn the first sod at Sunnybrook with his silver shovel. Months later I saw a picture of the area with the rest of the sod still unturned, with the comment that progress at least had been reported because the divot had not been replaced. We in Toronto have a new name for Sunnybrook; we call it "Frozen Brook" now, because we do not know how long it will be until a real start is made on this vitally important hospital. The minister may and no doubt will say that he is being held up because of priorities. Last year I had the good fortune to visit one of the United States bases in the West Indies taken over under lease-lend; to be exact, Bermuda. There they have built not one but two hospitals. The one I saw had completely equipped operating theatres and the very latest medical and therapeutic instruments; a hospital, to judge by its size, with over a thousand beds. In addition, they built for the naval personnel a hospital of something under a thousand beds. So that I say to the minister there is nothing the Americans, at any rate, consider of greater importance than hospitalization, and I submit that there is nothing we in Canada should consider ahead of the hospitalization of those who are risking their lives for us. In the last week or two I had a further opportunity of seeing a large United States service hospital. I think it is invidious that we in Canada should lag, as we do, behind the United States and other parts of the empire in the care and hospitalization of our wounded.
After the war is over we may expect to have a large number of men who will probably require years of hospitalization, and. a few of

whom will require permanent treatment. I suggest to the minister that he establish at once hospitals outside the major cities, away from the turmoil of the great industrial centres, to look after these cases. We have in Canada a large number of health resorts. I have in mind in this connection resorts such as Banff, where tremendous and expensive hotels have been built to care for the tired business man in the summer months. These resort hotels have been well patronized, and I understand the value to those who frequent them is great.
I suggest to the minister that some consideration should be given to the creation of convalescent homes and hospitals in places such as Banff, Radium Hot Springs, Harrison Hot Springs, and all these places are in the Rocky mountains, but there are others elsewhere. At the present time Harrison Hot Springs has been taken over by the Department of National Defence. I suggest that these centres should be used for purposes of convalescence and lengthy hospitalization. We must see to it that the man who comes back from this show is adequately hospitalized.
I can remember when, at the time of the last war, Christie street hospital was opened. Men coming home were placed in old Knox college, a depressing building. They were even put in the cellar of that building-one of the most sinister situations, as anyone who was unfortunate enough to go through that institution will tell.
I shall not take the time of the committee to discuss clothing grants, or other matters at this time. I shall wait until other items of his estimates are before us.
I must say, however, that so far, up to the end of 1943, we have increased our hospitalization by only 4,000 beds-and we are now engaged in the greatest military,-naval and air struggle of all time. If we have the casualties on the scale we have been warned to expect, this accommodation will be hopelessly inadequate. I know there are future plans; but with the progress-or lack of progress-at "Frozen Brook", let me say that it is very little encouragement to the men in the armed forces to see that merely 4,000 beds have so far been provided. And remember this, that at the beginning of this war we had about 2,500 beds, of which 2,300 were occupied.
That is the situation we face in Canada to-day. Nothing could be more serious, and nothing requires more immediate attention than the hospitalization of those who will suffer through actual combat. I say to the minister in all humility: for heaven's sake get on with the completion of, or at least start, Sunnybrook, so that we will know there is to be a real hospital on that site.

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Mr. McCANN:: When the hon. member for Parkdale took part in the debate he gave some interesting and, I am sure, accurate statistics with respect to venereal disease in Canada, more particularly how it affected the army, and how the disease would be reflected in its effect upon veterans, and the pensions which might be paid to them on account of disabilities arising from such disease.
The hon. member appeared to convey the impression that nothing was being done throughout Canada, and that efforts in that direction were confined entirely to British Columbia. In order to have the record straight let me say that the division of venereal disease control of the Department of Pensions and National Health has already launched a vigorous educational programme for the eradication of these diseases.
The medical profession are glad that Colonel Williams, who is recognized as one of the leading men in the profession in this specialized study, is-now chief of the division of venereal disease control. He is quoted as having said that this easily preventable human tragedy of syphilis and gonorrhoea is largely a heritage of neglect, prudery and failure to face the facts. But it was not until last December, when a national venereal disease control conference was held here in Ottawa, that this problem was really attacked as it should be, and some direction along the lines of an educational and treatment programme was outlined. Up to that time too much attention had been paid in Canada to curing the infection only. The conference which was held was aimed at the sources and causes of the dreaded social diseases, and the deliberations of more than one hundred physicians and visitors from other countries resulted in resolutions which, if carried out, should see venereal disease under control in Canada within the present year.
Perhaps of first importance was the recommendation for a publicity programme to educate the public through the newspapers and by lectures, motion pictures, posters and pamphlets. The venereal disease control division was reorganized last year for an organized attack on venereal diseases, and a consultant in public educational work, Mr. H. C. Rhoades, was appointed to prepare and carry on that programme. At the conference held last December a sort of charter to destroy syphilis and gonorrhoea in Canada was discussed and approved. Social workers and welfare agencies, police and legal machinery, were called upon to aid the physician with his weapons of modern science, while churches and homes lead the fight for better moral fibre in a general dominion wide effort to eradicate 100-191
venereal disease or at least make it extremely rare. The conference drew up an interesting programme. Included in the approved programme were the following points on which the delegates agreed.
First, that they should give the facts. The facts concerning venereal disease will end the conspiracy of silence, banish outworn fallacies and remove false fears. The second point concerned treatment. It was decided that every Canadian who requires examination and treatment should have the best that medical science can provide. Free blood tests, free drugs, free clinics are being provided by the various health departments on the theory that it is cheaper to cure and prevent than to pay taxes to care for the ravages of neglected infection.
Another point in the programme had to do with the abolition of quackery. Laws exist to protect citizens from the quack and the charlatan. Only qualified physicians are permitted by law to care for those suffering from venereal disease. The public must be protected from the incompetent and the rogue. The fourth point in the programme had to do with contacts and the investigation of contacts. Careful search must be made for all who have been contacts. Only by seeking those and by bringing them under treatment and medical supervision can the curse of venereal disease be destroyed.
It is well known that there are different methods of prevention, but the conference stressed two methods. The first was prenatal blood tests. Every expectant mother must have a blood test before the fifth month. They should demand it and insist upon it, because it is the only protection that many unborn children have. In addition to that, the conference suggested and advocated that there should be premarital blood tests and health examinations as safeguards against the sinister encroachment of syphilis upon the home and family.
Because the entire nation is mobilized for war, and because so many thousands are under close supervision in the armed services, Canada was never in a better position to combat the spread of social disease. I again quote Colonel Williams, who said:
To-day as never before, events and conditions are favourable for the final eradication of venereal disease in Canada. There is a full tide of wholesome public interest, concern, and support for measures directed against these master saboteurs of our war effort. Never before has there been such an imposing show of force arrayed against the threat of syphilis and gonorrhoea.
I simply wanted to put on the record what the hon. member for Parkdale could have put
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on had he wanted to give credit to the department for taking energetic and forthright steps with reference to this particular disease. I look forward with the greatest confidence to the time when that programme is put into effect, because I know that then the social evils will receive a set-back which they have never received before.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: Mr. Chairman, I rise to a point of order. The hon. member for Renfrew South could not have been present when I spoke in the committee, because I am sure I did not create any such impression, or I certainly did not wish to, that the only place where venereal disease was under control was British Columbia. I thought I made that quite clear. I said that British Columbia was the first province in Canada to undertake extensive venereal disease control.


James Joseph McCann: There is no point of order. If the hon. gentleman wants to make another speech let him wait until I am finished.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: I am glad the hon. member has supplemented what I said, but I had no intention to leave that impression and I do not think I did.


James Joseph McCann: I do not wish to impute to the hon. member for Parkdale anything which should not be imputed, but I did not hear that particular part of his remarks which would convey the impression that the Department of Pensions and National Health had instituted a programme such as they have. In order that the record might be straight and in order that it might be on the record at the right time, I thought I should say what I have just said with reference to it.
While I am speaking on the war appropriation for the Department of Pensions and National Health 1 should like to make a few observations with reference to hospitalization and the treatment of pensionable war veterans. The present situation with regard to the treatment of pensionable war veterans is that the department maintains hospitals of its own throughout the country or uses facilities of other hospitals in the larger centres. A man who is pensionable and wants treatment must go to these hospitals to be treated by attendants who are employees of the Department of Pensions and National Health. I have heard many complaints about this, from both pensionable veterans and members of the medical profession. Pensionable veterans do not want to leave their own communities where there are proper hospital facilities and adequate medical care to go to centres far distant from their homes. I am sure that this condition could be remedied.
[Mr. McCann. J
As witness of this I would cite to the minister what obtains with reference to the treatment of patients who come under workmen's compensation. I suggest that there are as many workmen compensation cases in Ontario in a year as there are veterans who are receiving pensions who require treatment. Workmen's compensation cases are treated in the hospitals in their own communities by physicians of their own choice. I am sure veterans would be more contented at home and would be able to have some freedom of action in choosing a hospital and the doctor who would attend them. When the war is over, regimentation with reference to veterans should cease. They should not continue to be pushed around as they are when they are told that they must go to a certain hospital.
For instance, take the situation in the Ottawa valley. Any man who is a pensioner and needs treatment is supposed to come to one of the hospitals in Ottawa. Splendid facilities are available in Brockville, Smiths Falls, Perth, Almonte, Renfrew and Pembroke, all wdthin sixty or eighty miles of Ottawa. There are men in those districts equally competent to give treatment to veterans, and I think it is generally recognized that they have as good equipment in those institutions as they have in Ottawa. Furthermore, in almost every one of those communities there are medical men who are veterans of the last war. They feel it keenly that their services are overlooked and that they are not being used for the treatment of their fellow soldiers.
Another matter on which I should like to speak briefly has to do with the remuneration and the salaries of medical men in the Department of Pensions and National Health and' in the service, and the salaries of both medical and dental men who are in the hospital service in the large state-owned institutions. I think they are being grossly underpaid. Men on salary of over $3,000 a year have not received any cost-of-living bonus, and I think it is high time that they received some extra compensation for their services during the war period when they are particularly busy. When we take into consideration the cost of medical education, the long years of preparation, and the comparable salaries which are being paid to men in other professions, the medical doctors in the department of health and the doctors and dentists in our state-owned hospitals who are treating veterans are grossly underpaid. I hope that the minister will give this matter his consideration and see that these men are given better remuneration.
Having brought up on several previous occasions the matter of the use of hospitals

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
in smaller communities and having got nowhere with my recommendations, once again I recommend to the minister that this matter be given his serious consideration.


John George Diefenbaker: There are a number of suggestions that I should like to bring to the attention of the minister. I am sure that those who have followed the course of the speeches made to-day have been impressed by the non-partisan attitude displayed by all members to this important problem. As I look back over a period of four years I think of the many suggestions made on the part of His Majesty's opposition with relation to the treatment to be accorded to returned soldiers and other service personnel, and of the number that have been implemented. Year by year we look forward to the discussion of the estimates of the Department of Pensions and National Health, knowing that if our suggestions are able to command sufficient support in public opinion throughout the country they will be finally implemented into legislation.
To-night there are a number of references that I intend to make in as short a time as possible. The first has to do with the estab- ' lishment of the insurance principle in pensions. True enough, in 1941 by legislation the members of this house accepted in principle the order in council that had been passed by the executive in May of 1940. The insurance principle, so far as service personnel serving in Canada only are concerned, was denied by that legislation, and ever since there has been on the part of all soldier organizations and also on the part of members of this house, irrespective of the side on which they sat, a demand that the insurance principle be applied so far as service personnel serving .in Canada only are concerned. There is no opportunity to-day for private members to introduce private bills or resolutions, and I make the appeal to the minister that, without regard to other considerations, he give the members of the house an opportunity at this session to decide whether or not they wish to repeal that section which was enacted in 1941.
I think that if that opportunity were given to members of this house they would, without exception, follow the suggestion that has been so often made by the hon. member for Souris, the hon. member for Hastings-Peter-borough, the hon. member for Vancouver South and the hon. member for York West, that the insurance principle should be applied in so far as those who serve in Canada alone are concerned, to put them on an equality with those who serve elsewhere.
The point I rose to deal with particularly this evening-and I wish to pay my tribute 100-1911
to the courtesy shown by the minister in, allowing me to have a glance at his file in this connection-has to do with reestablishment loans for soldiers and other service personnel, returning from overseas in order to enable them to enter into business and to operate their own private enterprises. To date that opportunity has not been given. There is a suggestion in "Post-war Planning Information", issued by the wartime information board, that one of the subcommittees of the advisory committee on demobilization and reestablishment is considering a proposal that capital advances be made available to exservice men who wish to set themselves up in their own business. This is a very important matter. We are sure, so far as we can be under the legislation that now exists, that discharged members of His Majesty's forces and certain other designated classes of persons will be reinstated in their civil employment under the Reinstatement in Civil Employment Act of 1942. Before I pass from that; let me suggest to the minister that that act which we passed in 1942 has so many loopholes in it which only became apparent after the legislation had been passed, that I submit it should be referred to a committee in order to enable the committee to fill in those holes and assure those who serve that when they do come back they will be able to secure their old positions, the ones they left when they entered the armed forces of the country.
So far as the man who desires to go into agriculture is concerned, provision has been made to a greater or less extent; loans are provided for; land can be secured. But for the man who was formerly engaged in business, who had some little business of his own which he gave up in order to enlist in the armed forces of this country, no provision that I know of has yet been made. I speak subject to correction and I hope the minister will correct me if I am wrong.
As I see the position everywhere across this dominion, there are men who gave up their business, small enterprises, larger enterprises in some cases, in order to enlist. I suggest that we are faced with this problem and that we must meet it. After the last war, as of the 21st of November, 1919, provision was made for vocational loans in amounts not exceeding $500 in any individual ease to enable service men to purchase tools and equipment for their reestablishment if they were retrained disabled men, and to pursue their training or education where disability made such training necessary, in cases where they were not entitled to or had not taken training under the Department of Soldier Civil Reestablishment. The record which the minister was kind enough
3034	COMMONS
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to place before me shows that, of $624,424.48 which was advanced, there was paid in cash up to March 31, 1942, $500,313. In other words, practically all of the advances which were made to enable these men to carry on and to purchase tools and equipment or to pursue training and education were repaid. I suggest that the time has come when provision should be made for loans by the government to men who sold their businesses in order to enlist, as well as to those who have the necessary ability to start small businesses for themselves.
I remember well, a little over a year ago, 'bringing up in the house a case which received considerable publicity across this Country, the *case of a man who had been engaged prior to the war in operating a hardware business. He deft his stock on hand; he closed his business. He was invalided home, and he was unable to get permission from the wartime prices and trade board to enable him to carry on. As the law stands, under order No. 284 no person desiring to establish a business, unless it was operated within a period of one year preceding November 2, 1942, is permitted to do so. In *other words, the men who enlisted in 1939, 1940, or 1941 up until November, who were in business, upon returning from overseas are not permitted under that order to open up the business which they formerly operated, or to start a similar business, without a permit. I believe that certain changes have recently been made in that regard, and those are steps in the right direction. Those changes came about through the fact that matters such as this were brought before parliament. After all, one reason why parliament exists is to *enable those to whom injustice is being done to bring the matter before the house and the *country so that redress may be given. Changes have been made in this regard, and I believe there has been a relaxation of this order, which I will ask the minister to explain, because there is still some doubt as to whether men [DOT]returning from overseas may go into business.
When that difficulty is removed there will still remain another matter, concerning the large body of service people who, having no available funds, and there being no provision for loans to them, cannot open up the business for which they are peculiarly fitted. I do not 'believe there are facilities of this kind in [DOT]Great Britain, but in New Zealand there is a provision for loans of a maximum of $1,800 to *enable a veteran to purchase stock in trade or [DOT]plant or to assist him with working capital. Interest is payable at the rate of four and one-eighth per cent, reducible to two per cent for the first year, or for the first throe years, as the case may be. A similar scheme is in operation in Australia, where advances may

be made by way of loan up to $900 for purchase of plant if the applicant is not eligible under a land settlement scheme. I believe that only in this way, through a government loan or advance to the men who serve, will those desirous of entering into business be enabled to carry on through the difficult days of rehabilitation. I suggest, therefore, that serious consideration be given to the establishment in Canada of a loan scheme such as I have described. We have legislation, introduced at the present session, to enable advances to be made and loans for development work, but as I understand that legislation it will not include within its ambit service men in the position to which I have referred.
Another matter to which I wish to refer is the decentralization of hospitalization so far as out-patient treatment is concerned. In Saskatchewan provision has been made for additional hospital facilities in Saskatoon and Regina, and I wish to draw the minister's attention to the merits of a lake about one hundred miles east of Saskatoon, Manitou lake, near Watrous, Saskatchewan. That lake is known all over western Canada for the medicinal values of its mineral water, the benefits which follow from receiving treatment for those suffering from rheumatism, arthritis and kindred ills. I believe the matter has already been brought to the notice of the minister, and I suggest that consideration be given to the establishment there for outpatients not requiring hospitalization in the ordinary meaning of the term, of a hospital for treatment of diseases such as I have mentioned. This lake has been known for 150 years for the medicinal values of its water.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Which place is that?
Mr. DIEFENBAKER; Manitou lake, near Watrous. The minister knows very well the reputation which the place has. There are readily available facilities. It has the medicinal values, the railway facilities, and an established reputation for treatment; and I suggest that, as far as returning Saskatchewan soldiers are concerned who suffer from the diseases which I have mentioned and related ailments, in order that they may be enabled to receive treatment near home, the necessary hospital facilities might be established there.
One other item to which I would refer is in connection with war veterans' allowances. Throughout this country are a considerable number of imperial veterans who served in South Africa and afterwards came out to this country, who are not in receipt of a pension, having no pensionable disabilities, but who find

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
themselves, with the approach of middle age, the age to which so many of those old soldiers of the last war are approaching, the late sixties, in a position where they cannot carry on. The legislation as it stands to-day denies to them the opportunity to secure the assistance of the war veterans' allowance, because they were not domiciled in Canada at the time of their enlistment, which, as I understand it, is a condition precedent to that allowance being granted. The existence in various parts of this country of old soldiers who have given their best to their country and to this empire, unable to carry on, receiving no allowance, does act in part as a detriment to good morale in the areas in which they live.
The various soldiers' organizations have dealt with this matter from time to time, but as the law now stands these men are denied any such allowance. I suggest that some provision should be made whereby allowances, even on a compassionate basis, should be made available to those old comrades in arms who have served in a common cause with us and within the empire. I think, too, some reciprocal arrangement could be effected between Canada and the United Kingdom or that part of the empire from which those old soldiers came to the end that some allowances may be paid to them. I know of cases in my own province of men who served in South Africa. They are now sixty-five, sixty-eight or seventy years of age. They are unable to work, unable to secure old age pensions, being below the age limit, unable to carry on because no allowances are available. They are dependent on personal support from individuals in their district. I suggest to the minister that an alteration is needed in the regulations as they stand to-day regarding war veterans' allowances, so that those men, in proper cases, may be allowed the benefits of those allowances. That alteration would meet with the support of the members of this committee on all sides.
I think the suggestions that have been made to-day will be most helpful, not only to the minister but to the members of the committee. I know they have been most intensely interesting to myself. In view of the fact that I do not expect to be here to-morrow there is one other suggestion I should make with regard to the question of education of those returning from overseas. Provision has been made in part. I understand the regulations are ready in the United States. I have made considerable study of those regulations. An opportunity is to be given by the government to all veterans desirous of doing so to take college or professional training for one
year after their discharge, with the right, if they have the necessary scholarship and ability, which is to be confirmed or demonstrated by their examination results, to carry on for a second, third, or possibly a fourth year.
The hon. member for Vancouver South said to-day that if there was one thing that should characterize the treatment of the men and women who have served it must be that of generosity. We are all in agreement with that. Under the United States plan provision is made to allow all servicemen taking advantage of it $50 a month for single persons and $75 a month for married persons. So general' is the desire on the part of the servicemen and women to take advantage of university or professional education that under the present registration one-twelfth of those who are serving in the United States forces have given notice of their intention to take advantage of this further education.
In so far as Canada is concerned, provision is being increased from time to time for those who serve. Naturally there are still gaps to be filled. My reason for rising this evening was to place before the minister the claims of imperial veterans who did not see service' with the Canadian army and were not domi^ ciled in Canada at the time of their enlistment ; the matter of decentralization of hospitalization as far as out-patients are concerned, so that they may receive such treatment as near to their homes as possible; and the matter of assuring to those who return and desire to enter into business that they may have an opportunity to do so, which is, denied them to-day, because they will not be-able to. use the ordinary credit facilities which, are available. These suggestions would not mean the expenditure of any great amount of. money. The war veterans of the last war, by the repayment of about ninety-seven percent of the amount that they had borrowed in order to receive training or for trade purposes, showed that loans made to them would be repaid.
I should like to hear the minister's view on these matters when he comes to make his report to the committee.


Mr. KNOWLES:: There are one or two additional matters about which I should like to say a few words, but before doing so I wish to comment briefly upon some of the-matters which have already been discussed during the course of the debate to-day. It is true that there have been a few sharp-exchanges across the floor during this debate, but I am confident that the minister will agree that political fighting has been put on the
3036	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
shelf, at least for to-day. Indeed, I have felt since coming to this House of Commons that there is no discussion into which all members enter more earnestly than the debate relating to matters affecting the welfare of veterans, both of the last war and of the present conflict.
As the hon. member who has just taken his seat has said, we rejoice in the fact that from time to time we witness improvements made by order in council in the treatment accorded veterans, and that makes it seem worth while for us to fight for still further betterments. If I take a few moments to add my voice with regard to some of the points that have been urged over and over again to-day, it is because with other hon. members on this side of the house I feel that it is worth while to do so. We are glad to recognize that some forward steps are being taken, and we hope that by our continuing to keep these matters to the fore, still further improvements will result. Therefore in just a few words I should like to add my support to three or four arguments that have been advanced quite frequently.
First, I refer to the matter of reinstating the insurance principle as far as men in Canada are concerned. I refer also to the desirability of getting rid, if we possibly can, of the words "pre-enlistment origin" with respect to the physical condition of men who were taken into the forces as A-l. Another point that has been made quite frequently, not only in this *but in other debates, is the desirability of the 'benefit of the doubt, to use the phraseology used by the minister on April 28, really being given to the applicant for pension rights. I know the minister, when he spoke on this matter on April 28, tried to make the point that the law is quite clear that the benefit of the doubt is on the side of the veteran; yet the experience of so many of us in this house is that a great many veterans do not seem to find it that way. It is true that a great many cases we as members of parliament take up with the minister are satisfactorily dealt with, and there is no denying the fact that it gives us a great deal of satisfaction, after taking up a case with the minister, to be able to write back to the veteran who wrote us in the first place and report success as a result of our efforts. But every time we do that we are conscious of the fact that there are many others who perchance have not thought about writing to members of parliament, and still others who have simply accepted the unfavourable decisions that have been given without feeling that anything could be done about the matter. Our attitude is that the situation ought not to be such that cases can be dealt with unfavourably, when upon receiv-

ing special consideration through being brought to the attention of the minister by a member of parliament it can be found that they should have been dealt with favourably in the first instance. I realize that it is difficult to take care of this matter by legislation or even by order in council, but I am satisfied that it can be taken care of, shall I say, by the minister passing the word down through the entire administration of his department that the statement of principle and policy which he enunciated on April 28, and undoubtedly will enunciate again during the course of this debate, is to be carried out not just in theory but in actual practice. I hope we may see a further acceptance of the idea that the onus of proof rests upon the government, and that the benefit of the doubt is really on the side of the veteran.
Another matter that has been mentioned previously to-day is that of more favourable consideration being given to cases of psychological disturbance. We have been quite alarmed by the number of cases of men who are not given favourable consideration because of the nature of the incapacity with which they come back from overseas. I refer particularly to men who have served in the air force. We learn of cases of men whose condition is such that they are no longer of use to the air force, who are discharged after having served for two or three years; yet because the ailment is not strictly a physical one, frequently no pension is available to them. This is a new development brought about by the nature of warfare in which we are engaged during this conflict, and it seems to me that we should find more lenient ways of dealing with cases of this kind.
In thinking about this debate I thought we might not be permitted to discuss such matters as the War Veterans' Allowance Act and the treatment of widows of veterans of the last war, so that it is my intention to have something more to say about those matters when we come to the specific items in the civil estimates. And yet I thought you were quite right, Mr. Chairman, in permitting a discussion at least of a general character on those items during this general debate. Just in passing I should like to say that when we do come to the item having to do with the administration of the War Veterans' Allowance Act many of us will have something to say, because not only are we thinking of the veterans of this war, but we are still conscious of the needs of the veterans of the last war and we want to see them receive the very best that is possible.
When we come to the item in the civil estimates that has to do with the granting of allowances to widows of veterans of the last

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
war who, when they died, were on fifty per cent pension or less, again we in this group, and hon. members of all groups, will have something to say. We are grateful for the improvements that have been made in these allowances by order in council during the past several months, but there are still some definite improvements that need to be made and, I hope, will be made even before we get to that discussion. I should like to mention particularly the matter of hospitalization for these widows. Further, in connection with hospitalization, I hope one policy which has been in effect will be changed, if it has not been changed already. I refer to the fact that when widows on these allowances are hospitalized a portion of their allowance is paid to the hospital, and another portion is paid to the widow, but a small portion is withheld and not paid to anyone, on the theory that the widow, being in hospital, is getting something extra because of the services provided there. I have argued this point privately with the chairman of the war veterans' allowance board and the minister. It is my feeling that there is no valid reason for that procedure. When a widow on a small allowance goes into hospital, she still has a room or other living accommodation which she must maintain, and it is exceedingly difficult for her to keep things together if there is any reduction in her small allowance.
Another matter with respect to these widows comes to my mind because of an order in council which was tabled this week. As I recall it, the order in council provided that the widow of a veteran who was on pension and who, because of the amount of the veteran's pension, would be entitled to a pension herself, now can obtain that pension even though she did not marry the veteran until some time this year. That is a change from the former date, which I believe was 1930. I am hoping that the same change may be made without delay with respect to widows of veterans who died while receiving fifty per cent pension or less. I can see no reason why the same policy should not apply in both cases. If it is just that the minister has not given his attention to it I hope that he will do so, and that an order in council may be brought down in a few days.
There is one other matter. I do not suppose I can hope for this overnight, but I can certainly hope that it will be taken care of before long. I refer to widows of veterans of the last war, in cases where those veterans were on fifty per cent pension or less, and did not get into what was then known as an actual theatre of war. I refer in particular
to many men who were in England. Those men were quite prepared to go to the front but, for reasons beyond their control, did not get there. Why these widows should be discriminated against because of that fact I find it exceedingly difficult to understand.
Perhaps I have taken longer than I should have on this subject, having admitted that it might be out of order; but since other members have referred to it-


John Ritchie MacNicol: It has nothing to do with this vote.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The hon. member may
speak to it if he wishes, later on. Two other members in his group have spoken in the matter.


John Ritchie MacNicol: They were out of order, too.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Perhaps it is well to give the minister a preview of the case we shall be making on this point later on.
There is one other matter to which I should like to refer-and I think I can assure the hon. member for Davenport that it comes definitely under this item, which deals with the treatment of members of the armed forces and ex-members of those forces. I refer particularly to the number of medical personnel in hospitals under the supervision of the Department of Pensions and National Health.
I am not going to add to the debate we have already had respecting Christie street hospital. I refrain in part because I come from a city where, as was said earlier to-day by the hon. member for Souris, we have a hospital of which we are proud. The name of Deer Lodge is almost sacred to the people of Greater Winnipeg, and, indeed, to those of the whole of Manitoba. And yet, Mr. Chairman, it has been drawn to my attention on quite a number of occasions that the number of doctors available in Deer Lodge hospital-and I have been told it is the same in other hospitals under the department-is woefully inadequate. I have been told, further, that as a result of the fact that the number of doctors is less than it should be there has been a great deal of confusion and loss of time. I have been told that many veterans going into these hospitals must wait a long time before they get the kind of treatment they should.
I have been told by men in the armed forces that there was a reluctance on the part of doctors in the army, and particularly in Winnipeg, to have men discharged from the army hospital at Fort Osborne to go to Deer Lodge, because they are afraid
3038	COMMONS
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that when they get there they will not receive, as quickly as they should, a continuation of the treatment they have had while under the care of army doctors. This is not the fault of the doctors at Deer Lodge; the trouble is that there are too few of them.
It has been suggested to me that this is a tremendous problem, and that it may branch out into the whole question of insufficient medical men in the country as a whole, and also the problem arising from the fact that we have four different medical services. I refer to the army, the navy, the air force and the Department of Pensions and National Health. This raises the whole question as to the desirability of coordinating these services to a greater degree, or perhaps actually going so far as to try to arrive at one medical service for the armed forces and the Department of Pensions and National Health.
Bearing in mind what has been said to me about this, I felt I should like to get some information of a statistical nature to see whether it would prove or disprove the complaints I had received. With that in mind I placed some questions on the order paper, and they were dealt with to-day. My questions as they appeared on to-day's order paper were as follows:
1.	What was the total number of patient-days
in each of the hospitals under the direction of the	Department	of	Pensions	and	National
Health for the year 1939?
2.	What was the total number of patient-days
in each of the hospitals under the direction of the	Department	of	Pensions	and	National
Health for the year 1943?
3.	What was the total number of medical
personnel	employed in	each	of	the	abovehospitals	for the year	1939,	(a)	full	time;
(b) part time?
4.	What was the total number of medical
ersonnel	employed in	each	of	the	aboveospitals	for the year	1943,	(a)	full	time;
(b) part time?
Obviously my purpose in asking those questions was to try to find out what increase there had been in demands upon these hospitals, and then to find out what increase there had been in medical personnel to cope with these increased demands.
My question was passed as an order for return at three o'clock this afternoon, at which time the minister laid the return on the table. I am sorry it was not answered in the usual way, and the figures placed on Hansard; but perhaps I can overcome that by reading in tabulated form some of the outstanding figures in the return. The total number of patient-days for the years 1939 and 1943, respectively, in six of these hospitals, is as follows:

Total	Total
patient- patient-Hospital	days, 1939 days, 1943
Camp Hill,	Halifax. ...	43,378	94,665
Lancaster, W est Saint
John	
21,850	86,981Christie Street, Toronto	145,073	315,204Deer Lodge, Winnipeg..	53,894	97,232Colonel Belcher, Calgary	33,247	70,654Shaughnessy, Vancouver.	62,194	238,756
Hon. members who will look at these figures will see that they indicate a tremendous increase in the demands made upon these hospitals.
Over against that, the other figures for which I asked, and which have been supplied in the return, indicate the extent to which medical personnel has been increased to meet these demands. In answering the question the department has chosen arbitrary dates of September 30, 1939, and September 30, 1943, and the table contains the number of medical personnel employed at these hospitals on those arbitrary dates. In my opinion that was a justifiable way in which to answer the question. The table is broken down into part-time and full-time, but, to save time, I shall give only the totals. The following table, therefore, will show the total number of medical personnel employed in the six hospitals I have named for the years 1939 and 1943 respectively, as at September 30 in each year:
	Total	Total
	medical	medical
Hospital	personnel,	personnel,
	Sept. 30,	Sept. 30,
	1939	1943
Camp Hill, Halifax....	11	9Lan c aster, YV est Sa i n t John	4	5Christie Street. Toronto	31	40Deer Lodge, Winnipeg. .	14	19Colonel .Belcher, Calgarv	11	14Shaughnessy, Vancouver.	14	19
It will be noted that the only place at which there was a decrease is Camp Hill, Halifax.
I should like to go back and make a comment on those comparisons. At Camp Hill, Halifax, the total number of patient days in 1943 was more than twice what it was in 1939, but there was an actual decrease in the medical personnel. At Lancaster, West Saint John, the increase in patient days is fourfold, while the increase in doctors is from four to five. At Christie street hospital, Toronto, the increase is more than twofold in demand, while the increase in medical personnel is from thirty-one to forty. At Deer Lodge, Winnipeg, the increase in demand is almost twofold, while the increase in doctors is from fourteen to nineteen. At Colonel Belcher, Calgary, the increase is more than twofold in demand, while the increase in doctors is from eleven to

War Appropriationr-Pensions and Health
fourteen. At Shaughnessy, Vancouver, the increase is between three and fourfold in total number of patient days, while the increase in doctors is only from fourteen to nineteen. That seems to make it clear that all down the line there has not been a sufficient increase in medical personnel to take care of the increased patient requirements in these various hospitals.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Would my hon. friend read the note appended to the return?


Stanley Howard Knowles: I shall be glad to. If the minister would like it and the committee would consent, I would be glad to put the whole return on the record.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I have no objection.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The note which the minister has asked me to read and which appears at the bottom of the return is as follows:
At many of these institutions, the department receives valuable assistance from medical personnel of the armed services who are posted for varying peri-c :ls while awaiting disposal elsewhere.
I appreciate the significance of that statement, but it is difficult to do anything with it unless one has the actual figures. Even so, it brings to my mind the complaints that have been made to me to the effect that there is not sufficient care available for patients-I am speaking of Deer Lodge hospital about which I have been spoken to personally-such as the men of the armed services would like to see. As far as Winnipeg is concerned we have not anything like the complaint that the Toronto members have about their hospital. We are proud of ours, but we feel that there is tremendous room for improvement in the ser^ vices to be made available to these men.
1 have no desire to get under the minister's skin about it. I realize that he may be faced with a real problem in connection with this whole question of coordinating medical care throughout the country. I am fully aware that it is a tremendous problem. Also there is a problem facing anyone who tries to coordinate the medical services in the various armed services with the medical services of the Department of Pensions and National Health, but I think it is something that deserves and demands attention.
In connection with this table there is something else I should like to draw to the attention of the committee. I have divided the number of patient days in the six hospitals that I have referred to by 365 in order to obtain the average number of patients in each one of these hospitals on each day during
1943. The average daily figures are as
follows:
Camp Hill, Halifax	 259
Lancaster, West Saint John	 238
Christie Street, Toronto		871
Deer Lodge, Winnipeg	 266
Colonel Belcher, Calgary	 193
Shaughnessy, Vancouver	 654
While dealing in statistics I wish there were some way of showing how this works out with respect to the number of medical personnel available. The difficulty with which one is faced-this is partly due to the way in which I asked my question-is that the medical personnel in some instances are full-time, in other instances are part-time, and there is also the note to which the minister called attention to the effect that assistance of medical personnel from the armed services is frequently available. The minister may check me if he wishes on what I am about to say. But if one considers only the full-time medical personnel in each one of these hospitals to which I have referred, he is faced with the fact that a great amount of work would seem to devolve upon the shoulders of the full-time medical men. I notice there are two or three doctors in the chamber and they may comment on my figures. However, if you consider the full-time medical personnel only, you find that each doctor is taking care of the following number of patients in the different hospitals:
Patients per doctor per day
Colonel Belcher, Calgary	 32
Christie Street, Toronto	 41
Deer Lodge, Winnipeg	 44
Lancaster, West Saint John	 79
Shaughnessy, Vancouver	 81
Camp Hill, Halifax	 86
I am not trying to distort the figures, and that is why I ask the committee to note that there are also part-time medical men who come into these hospitals as well as the medical men from the armed services. But the fact remains that there are these disparities in the number of patients for which a doctor is responsible in these different hospitals. I am not a medical man, but quite apart from the disparities it seems to me that the number of patients that these doctors have to care for per day is too high. I hope that something can be done about this matter.
I know that not long ago an interesting report was laid on the table as a result of an extensive survey by the medical procurement and assignment board. What worries me is that the report was simply laid on the table. I have not heard of anything being done about it. This question of medical personnel for patients in these hospitals as well as
3040	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
medical services for the country as a whole is the concern of the minister who is before the committee just now, and I hope that he will give this matter further consideration. For the immediate present, if he cannot concern himself about the larger picture I hope that he will give consideration to the situation in the hospitals under his supervision in which veterans are patients at the present time.
Quite a number of representations have been made to me by the non-medical personnel employed in Deer Lodge hospital about grievances that exist. I realize that there is no argument over the fact that that should come under civil estimates, and I shall reserve my remarks until that time; but I am letting the minister know that 1 want to bring those grievances to his attention. I say all of this in the spirit which, as I suggested at the start of my remarks, has been characteristic of this debate, namely, that all of us in this committee without regard to party are keenly interested in the welfare of our veterans. When it comes to the matter of health and the care that they should have and the adequacy of their hospitalization, we are all extremely earnest and deeply concerned to see that the very best be done. It is in that spirit that I plead for consideration to be given to achieving the best possible efficiency in the hospitals that come under the supervision of the minister.


Thomas Langton Church: The minister's department is divided into two parts, pensions and national health. I wish to say a few words about the first branch, pensions. The soldiers overseas are very much worried and are wondering why Canada is doing so much for civilians at home, such as unemployment insurance, health insurance and many things like that. Shortly after the war broke out I proposed that a system of life insurance on all our soldiers be established. I proposed it as an economy measure. We all know how complex the Pension Act is, and that it has to be amended almost every session. I have much sympathy with the adminstrators of the act. I have had a great deal to do with the officers in charge of its administration both in the last war and in this war and in the long depression, and I have found that they did excellent work on the whole. True it is that they stick to the letter of the law, and it may be that some of the boards are a little too strict in their interpretations, so that in some cases justice is not done to the soldier.
In the last war Toronto established its own system of life insurance on soldiers who went overseas from that city. We insured each soldier for $1,000, so that he would be free of the worry about what would happen to

his dependents if he should die on the battlefield. Shortly after this war broke out there was an article in Canadian Insurance monthly, describing Toronto's system of life insurance on soldiers in the last war. The United States adopted a national insurance system, and I proposed in this house in 1940 and again in 1941 that we should have a national system of life insurance on all our soldiers, to include provision for their dependents, both during and after the war, and to include, for three years after the war, provision for their insurance against unemployment and want, and free hospitalization.
As I say, the United States adopted a national system of life insurance for their soldiers in the last war, and that effected a very great economy in the administration of relief and pensions. Life insurance to-day is only in its infancy. What the soldier overseas is worried about is this. He goes overseas and he is thinking what is to happen to his wife and children or to his father and mother if he dies on the battlefield. It is a constant source of worry to him. I have received many letters in the last six months urging me to bring this matter again before the house, to substitute in part or in whole for the present pension system a national life insurance scheme paid for by the state. A lady wrote me to-day about it, and I will send her letter over to the minister. She is Mrs. Dobson, a Red Cross worker in a Mus-koka town, and her suggestion is along the lines I proposed to the present Minister of Finance in 1940, that life insurance be provided for all our soldiers. I know a very fine surgeon in Toronto who in 1940 gave up his practice and enlisted. He had a large life insurance policy, but the company changed the policy so that if he were killed in battle his dependents would not collect a cent of life insurance, and the premiums were raised. His dependents would have to depend entirely on the Pension Act.
The lady who wrote me-and she is one of many-points out that we should have a national system of insurance for the dependents at home of those who die on the battlefield. She says:
In many instances young sons, husbands and fathers have carried life insurance in civilian life, but these policies contain clauses which make them invalid in the event of insured being killed on active service.	_
The pensions paid io mothers, widows and orphans are a mere pittance compared with living costs, as also is the cost of living bonus paid to dependents. I am sure you must be aware of the great hardships endured on account of insufficient living allowances. These factors also contribute to juvenile delinquency when a mother is compelled to go out to work to provide for her children.

War Appropriation-Pensions and Health
In the first great war the United States government provided life insurance for her service men and I know it continues this practice during the present conflict. In the former case,
I had a young friend who left ten thousand dollars to his aged father. Part of premium was taken care of by the United States government, the balance paid by the enlisted man. As to this, war, I have a young friend serving in the United States navy who has taken out a policy for six thousand dollars payable to his mother. This too is provided by his government.
I have often wondered why our government has not provided similar protection-surely it cannot be lack of money, when so much is recklessly squandered for far less vital and humane projects.
It seems to me that when a young man gives up the right to protect his loved ones financially, it should be the duty of our government to care for them adequately in the event of his death. From many conversations I am sure that any service man would share fairly with his government the premium on a policy, deductible from his pay as is now done for victory bonds and war savings certificates, which he is expected to buy to help win the war, as well as do the actual fighting.
Unemployment insurance has brought millions of dollars to a fund to protect civilians in case of unemployment. Why not use some of these millions as insurance for our soldiers, sailors and airmen, who have given up the right, temporarily I hope, to contribute to this unemployment insurance fund.
Should consideration not be given to those who are ready to give their all to protect the rights and privileges of us at home, living in comfort and safety? Does an enlisted man not deserve the peace of mind that comes from knowing his loved ones will be looked after adequately?
I want to assure you that my interest in this matter is not of a personal nature. . . .
I know she is a worker for those who have enlisted. She is urging a government-sponsored life insurance scheme for service men, which is what I have been urging for many years. This is a different war from the last, and a changing war. The Minister of Finance has already accepted one proposal that I made to him in 1941 and 1942, for to-day he announced that Canadians crossing the border can now take $150 a year across in United States funds. In view of the magnitude of this, war, I am sure that the more he looks into the proposal I am making that we establish a national system of life insurance for our soldiers, the more likely he is to be in favour of it. I hope that the minister' will look into it.


Mr. GERSHAW:: Mr. Chairman, since this debate has wandered far afield I hope the minister will bear with me for a few minutes while I bring to his attention the fact that a great tragedy befell the people of southern Alberta during the last few months. A preventable disease, typhoid fever, has affected about seventy people in that district. There
was no doubt about the disease being typhoid. Clinical and blood tests established it beyond any question. All of the primary cases had one thing in common, namely, that they had all eaten of some cheese that was made at a special factory between February 5 and February 10. This factory has a good name. It is a cooperative institution. The manager was anxious to do all he could. But it seems that no Cheddar cheese or raw cheese in the whole of the dominion is pasteurized.
It is also a fact that in Canada there have been ten cheese-born epidemics of typhoid, and three of these have been in Alberta. This one was a particularly severe type of typhoid. The patients were very sick; there was about the usual ten per cent mortality; after recovery they will be left in a weakened position, more subject to tuberculosis, and there will be structural changes which will be permanent defects in their tissues. The money cost of this alone to the hospitals and to the patients will run over a million dollars. The long periods of illness have taken people who were needed in war activities, and deaths of people in the prime of life are something to which we cannot attach a value.
Typhoid very often spreads by carriers. There can be the incubation carried, the person who can spread typhoid germs around before he is taken seriously sick; there can be the convalescent carrier, who exudes them for three or four months after recovery; and then the chronic carrier, who for an indefinite period can spread typhoid germs and be a great menace to the district. The provincial health officers after careful and prolonged search, found a typhoid carrier who had been supplying milk to this particular cheese factory, and it was a long search; but undoubtedly the source of the infection came from this cheese.
How can people be protected from such a serious tragedy as an epidemic of this kind is? Inoculations have amply proved their value, but they protect a person only for a year, and they will not protect against massive infection. The pasteurization of cheese is not done in Canada; that is with the raw cheese; it is not processed like packaged cheeses; probably this is not feasible. There is one plan, and that is, by keeping the cheese for sixty or ninety days it becomes absolutely safe; and I want to make an appeal to the minister of health and to his officers to consider making a regulation which will protect people by having the cheese kept for the necessary period of time. If one province only did this they would be at a
Privilege-Mr. Coldwell

commercial disadvantage; but if the whole of Canada did it, the cost would be a small item compared with the costs of such an epidemic.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Ralston the house adjourned at 10.55 p.m.
Friday, May 19, 1944