1944-03-14

[Stage Direction]
On the order for motions:
Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KIXG (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to refer to a statement which Premier Drew is reported to have made in the Ontario legislature yesterday, and which has been given general circulation in the press of Canada by the Canadian Press. The dispatch is dated Toronto, March 13, C.P., and reads in part as follows:
After studying the text of Prime Minister King's anouncement, however, Premier Drew issued the following statement:
"Mr. King does some truly remarkable juggling with figures in his attempt to distort the effect of the notices put up by the liquor control board of Ontario.
"All the beer available for sale in Ontario under the restrictions imposed by the dominion government has been sold. The notices simply conveyed the information that the alcoholic beverages available at the sales outlet were restricted by the dominion order. That statement was correct.
"Mr. King has not furthered the cause of dominion-provincial cooperation by misrepresenting the facts to the whole of Canada regarding the action of the Ontario government.
Elsewhere the report states that Premier Drew had said:
Press reports quoted Mr. King as saying the wartime order called for a 10 per cent beer cut and Ontario had made it 25 per cent.
In order that there may be no misrepresentation of the facts or misunderstanding concerning them, may I read what I did say yesterday on this subject, as reported in Hansard, page 1392, with reference to the posting of the alcoholic beverages notices:
In Ontario, on the authority of the liquor control board, notices have been posted in establishments where alcoholic beverages are sold, which read as follows:
"Notice: The quantity of alcoholic beverages saleable at this sales outlet is restricted by reason of order in council No. 11374 passed by the federal government Dee. 16, 1942,-This notice is posted on authority of the Liquor Control Board of Ontario."
There is no indication in these notices that the action of the federal government was a war measure, enacted to increase the country's total war effort. No account is taken or mention made of the fact that the production and consumption of alcoholic beverages in 1942 had reached the highest level in Canada's history. Instead, the poster is designed to have it appear that, in the opinion of the government of Ontario, the action of the federal government is arbitrary, unfair and unnecessary.

Mil M
Alq&hoUc Beverages.
the.; enactment of the dominion wartime alcoholic beverages order, there has during the yea* been released for sale in each province of Canada, ninety per cent of the beer which was released fprfesale in the twelve months ended ^October iS-l. *942. Over the whole country, this JWVttHPt JBs some sixty per cent in excess of w it Which had been released for sale in the rear rfrifer to the outbreak of war. To-day the Leverage rooms of Ontario, where the notices of lha Ontario Liquor Control Board are posted, ere not being allocated 90 per cent by the board, instead, they are being allotted only 75 per cent. It is true that the quantity saleable in the province has been restricted by the dominion order in council, but it was not restricted by 25 per cent. That restriction on the beverage rooms was imposed by the liquor control board of Ontario.
The board's action has the approval of the government of Ontario. It was defended by the Attorney General of Ontario in the Ontario legislature on the 8th of this month. The posting of the notices certainly misrepresents the action of the federal government. It is clearly an attempt to have the federal government held responsible for the whole twenty-five per cent reduction.
That is the entire statement I made in regard to the notices, and it will be seen that I expressly said that it is true that the quantity saleable in the provinces has been restricted by the dominion order in council. That is what Mr. Drew says is true. But what has been omitted altogether from the notices which were posted is any reference to the fact that this is part of a war measure, that the restriction was only 90 per cent, whereas 75 per cent was all that was being given out in the beverage rooms.
Mr. Drew goes on to say, in the report which I have just read:
It is typical of Mr. King that he failed to inform the people of Canada at the same time that I had written to him last Friday asking for an appointment so that the attorney-general, the commissioner of the Liquor Control Board and I could meet him in Ottawa in an effort to find some solution to the unsatisfactory situation which had developed.
I	presume I am to accept to-day's announcement as his idea of an appropriate reply designed to encourage cooperation. In dealing with the matter in the legislature, Premier Drew read the letter he had sent to the Prime Minister asking for an early conference on the beer situation.
I	have a copy of the letter, and as it has been tabled in the Ontario legislature, I would ask permission to table it here. The previous correspondence was tabled some days ago. What I wish to call to the attention of hon. members is this statement of Mr. Drew:
It is typical of Mr. King that he failed to inform the people of Canada at the same time that I had written to him last Friday-

Et cetera, et cetera. And then:
I	presume I am to accept to-day's announcement as his idea of an appropriate reply designed to encourage cooperation.
What are the facts with regard to the receipt of Mr. Drew's letter and the statement I made yesterday? To begin with, it was on Saturday, March 4, that the press of this city and of other parts of the country reported that a notice had been posted in all liquor and beer sale outlets in Ontario. That was on Saturday, March 4, and on Wednesday, March 8, the morning papers reported a statement the provincial treasurer of Alberta, the Hon. Solon Low, made in the legislature; the statement to which I referred yesterday. On the afternoon of that day, having seen the notices, and having observed what Mr. Low was saying in Alberta, I communicated with my colleague, the Minister of National Revenue (Mr. Gibson), and indicated to him that I thought immediate action would have to be taken to prevent further misrepresentation of the position as between the dominion and the provinces and that in my opinion, it would be necessary, to leave the control of restriction on beer wholly within the purview of the provinces so as to give them complete control -in other words, to have single rather than dual control, particularly as the provinces have complete jurisdiction with regard to distribution and sale.
It was on Wednesday, March 8, that I so communicated with my colleague the Minister of National Revenue. On Thursday, March 9, the morning papers reported a statement of the attorney general of Ontario defending the notices posted by authority of the liquor board.
I	had hoped it might be possible for me to take up the matter on Friday the 9th, and to make a statement in the house immediately, along the lines of the one which I made yesterday, but I was too pressed with other matters to be able to get a statement prepared in that time. I therefore gave the statement yesterday, having taken part of Saturday to prepare it at some length in order that it might set out all the essential facts. As a matter of fact, therefore, the decision with respect to the action to be taken in regard to restrictions was made two days before Mr. Drew's letter was written. Mr. Drew's letter was written on March 10.
May I say a further word with regard to the time at which I received Mr. Drew's letter.
I	did not receive the letter until last night at half past eight o'clock. I think the house will understand very clearly how that came to be

Alcoholic Beverages
when I give to them the particulars which appear from the envelope, and also from what they know of the proceedings in the house yesterday. The letter is dated March 10, 1944. It bears the postmark, "Toronto, March 10, 11.30 p.m., 1944, Ontario"-11.30 p.m. on March 10, which was Friday. It could not possibly have reached Ottawa until late on Saturday at the earliest. The probability is it came on the following day but the Ottawa date stamp is not on to so indicate. The letter would not be sent to my office until Monday morning. But on the envelope it is also marked " personal." My secretaries follow the custom of putting by themselves letters marked "personal," so that when I have had a chance to get through with public communications I may personally look at the letters so marked.
I	had no chance yesterday even to look at communications that came in dealing with public business generally until late in the afternoon. I had important matters to take up in the cabinet and I had the statements that were given yesterday, one regarding the wages control order as well as the other on beer restrictions which I had to look over and further revise. I also received from the leader of the opposition (Mr. Graydon) a communication intimating that he wished to ask a question respecting the communication from Mr. de Valera. The result was that I did not get an opportunity even to have any luncheon before I came into the house. I made the statement I did without any knowledge whatever that there was a communication from Mr. Drew. At about half past four or five I went to my private office here and had a cup of tea and a sandwich-not a glass of beer and a sandwich, but a cup of tea and a sandwich. I was kept in the office until after seven at night. When I got back to my residence I found some personal letters. I took advantage of the opportunity to have a bit of a meal first, and afterwards I opened and read the letters marked " personal." The first letter I noticed on the top was one from the Premier of Ontario, which I have in my hand and which is marked "personal."
With all due respect, I say that this particular statement:
It is typical of Mr. King that he failed to inform the people of Canada at the same time that I had written to him last Friday. . . .
-is hardly the kind of comment that one would expect in the circumstances.


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: Sounds like a tempest in a beer pot.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Then further:
I	presume I am to accept to-day's announcement as his idea of an appropriate reply designed to encourage cooperation.
All I wish to say as to that is that I do not deal with public business in that particular way.


Mr. GORDON GRAYDON (Leader of the Opposition):: Having heard the explanation of the matter covered by the Prime Minister, I should like to say this. The Premier of Ontario could hardly be held accountable for the office arrangements of the Prime Minister of Canada, and it seems to me, while we must respect the explanation which has been given by the Prime Minister with respect to his not having received the letter, nevertheless I think the house and the country will be in agreement that the statement made last night by the Premier of Ontario, having in mind the fact that he had on Friday sent a letter to the Prime Minister, was in every respect a proper and an appropriate statement to make. I hope that the Prime Minister will not attempt, because there is a Progressive Conservative government in Ontario, to pick unnecessary fights with the Premier of Ontario.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: May I say to my hon. friend, I hope he will not attempt to make a lot of petty party politics out of this particular matter.	.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What are you doing?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am seeking to conduct this discussion on the plane on which it should be carried on. When my hon. friend says to me that the Premier of Ontario is not responsible for the arrangements of my office, may I tell him that the Premier of. Ontario, if he has a letter which is a public communication that is being sent to the Prime Minister to be read immediately, should not mark that letter "personal". More than that, if he attached importance to the letter, he could easily have sent me a telegram informing me of its dispatch or sent, the letter by air mail or special delivery. I hope the day will never come when, so far as office arrangements are concerned, I am to be expected to have all my personal mail opened by secretaries to be dealt with before I have any opportunity of dealing with official business. So far as the statement made by the Premier of Ontario is concerned, all I can say is if the circumstances had been reversed and I had been communicating with Mr. Drew and had felt the matter important enough to refer to publicly, before imputing
Awards for Gallantry

motives, I should have taken care to inquire, first of all, whether my letter had been received, and if not, what the reasons 'were.



NAVAL SERVICES


[Stage Direction]
Hon. ANGUS L. MACDONALD (Minister of National Defence for Naval Services): As I promised last week, I now table a list giving the names and addresses of 452 members of the Royal Canadian Naval Service who have received awards for gallantry or mentions in dispatches since the beginning of this war, together with a further list giving the numbers of non-operational awards.
Mr. KNOWLES:: May I inquire whether
the list of names which the Minister of National Defence for Naval Services has tabled will be included in to-day's Hansard as was done in the case of the Canadian Army and the Royal Canadian Air Force?


Mr. MACDONALD (Kingston City):: I
prepared the list in response to a request from the leader of the opposition (Mr. Graydon). I think I stated last week in my introduction to the naval estimates that I intended to put the table on Hansard. With the consent of the house it will go on Hansard. I assumed that the consent would be granted.
The list of names and awards follows:



OPERATIONAL AWARDS

[Stage Direction]
O.B.E	 20
M.B.E	 10
B.E.M	 32
D.S.0	 7
D.S.C	 49
D.S.M	 29
Conspicuous Gallantry	Medal	 1
George Medal	 6
Polish Cross of Valour	 4
Norwegian War Medal	 2
Greek War Cross, 3rd	Class	
1Czechoslovak Military	Cross, 1939....	3Commendations	
7
Legion of Merit in degree of
Legionnaire (U.S. Award)	 1
Mentions in Despatches	 280

[Stage Direction]
Alleyne. Victor P.
Commander. R.C.N. (Temp)
2	June, 1943
322 Armit Road, Esquimalt, B.C.
Arnison. Alfred Borden Lieut. Commander (E), R.C.N.R.
1	January. 1943
3884 W i3th. St. Vancouver, B.C.
Baugh. Gerald 0.
Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.R.
3	June. 1943
3990 Marguerite Avenue,
Vancouver, B.C.
[Mr, Mackenzie King.l
Bulmer, John
Lieut. Cdr. (E), R.C.N.R. (Temp)
1	January, 1944
10 Westoe Avenue, South Shields Durham, England
Clark, Norman Vincent Lieut. Commander, R.C.N.R.
14	Ogilvie Street, Halifax, N.S.
1	January, 1943
Copelin. Charles
Temp. Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.R.
Liverpool, N.S.
1	January, 1943
Crutchlow, Everett Francis Surg. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
660 Landsdowne Avenue, Westmount, Que.
1 January, 1943
Despres. Louis Gerard Fabiante Lieut. (E), R.C.N.R.
192 P.O. Box, Montmagny, Quebec
1	January, 1943
Griffiths, George Humphrey Commander, R.C.N. (Temp)
Upwood Farm, Berwick, King's Co.
Nova Scotia
2	June, 1943
Herman, Ronald James Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
8 Garden Crest Apts. Summer Street Halifax, Nova Scotia 2 June, 1943
Johnson. Bernard Dodds Leitch Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.R.
1386 Nicola Street, Vancouver, B.C.
1	January, 1944
Kenney. Reginald R.
Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
378 West Young St. Halifax, N.S.
2	June, 1943
Lay, Horatio Nelson A/Captain, R.C.N.
WTalkerton, Ontario
1	January, 1943
MacNeil], Robert A. S.	.
Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.R. (Temp)
19	Inglewood Place, Ottawa, Out.
2	June, 1943
Maheu. Joseph Mobrv Lieut. Cdr. (E) R.C.N.R.
98 McManamy St. Sherbrooke, Quebec 1 January, 1943
Mainguy, Edmond Rollo Captain, R.C.N.
Heanitree Farm, Herb Road, Duncar, V.I., B.C.
1 January, 1943
Miles. George Ralph
A/Captain, R.C.N.
now Commander
33 Seeley St. Saint John, N.B.
Pullen, Hugh Francis Commander. R.C.N.
Oakville, Ontario 1 January, 1944
Stephen, George Hay, D.S.C.
Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.R. .
2284 Hampton Ave., Montreal. Quebec 18 May, 1943

Awards for Gallantry
Woods, William
Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.R. (Temp)
431 Manning Avenue, Verdun, Quebec 1 January, 1944
M.B.E.-10 Armstrong, D. B.
11 Northcliffe Blvd., Toronto, Ontario 1 January, 1944
Blair, David William A/Lieutenant, R.C.N.V.R.
141 Moncton Avenue, Quebec, Quebec
Cormier, Joseph Louis Nazaire Chief Skipper, R.C.N.R.
79 Des Prairies St., Quebec City 16 October, 1939
Garrard, William Arthur Bordett Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
1847 Crescent Road, Victoria, B.C.
Gillespie, James Blaine Coxswain, R.C.N.R. (F.R.)
3919 West 13th. Avenue, Vancouver, B.C. 1 January, 1943
LaCouvee, Reginald James Commissioned Engineer, R.C.N.R.
(now Lieut. (E)
Delaire, Gaspe County, Quebec 1 January, 1943
Milsom. Patrick Sproull Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
124 Spadina. Toronto 1 June, 1943
Savory. John A.
Lieut. (E). R.C.N.V.R.
10 Lumsden Avenue, Hamilton, Ontario 18 May, 1943
Thomas. Herbert
Warrant Mechanician, R.C.N.
255 Percy St. Ottawa, Ontario 1 January, 1943
Watson. Douclas Rannie
Lieut. R.C.N.R. (Tempi
4451 Western Avenue. Westmount, Que.
10 August. 1943

[Stage Direction]
Batchild*r. William Milford Engine Room Artificer, 3/C, R.C.N.R. 22 Alley Street. Charlottetown, P.E.I.
1	January, 1944
Bell. David George E.R.A. 3/C, R.C.N.R.
430 Quebec Avenue, Toronto, Out.
18	May. 1943
Binnie. E. E.
Ab'e Seaman. R.C.N. tt McDougall Court. 100th. Street Edmonton. Alberta
2	June. 1913 Boutilier. Clyde
ER A. 3/C. R.C.N.V.R.
94 Wellington St. Halifax. N.S.
1 January, 1943
Brown. John Petty Officer. R.C.N.
18 AVilson St. Woodstock, Ont.
1 January, 1943
Campbell, John Driver Telegraphist, R.C.N.
1272 27 Ave. E., Vancouver, B.C.
2	June, 1943
Chapman, C. M.
A/leading seaman, R.C.N.R.
Murray Harbour, P.E.I.
2	June, 1943
D'Aubin, Donald Rupert E.R.A. 4/Class, R.C.N.V.R.
81 Victoria Road, Sydney, N.S.
1	January. 1944
Eagle, Frederick William Chief E.R.A. R.C.N.
1032 McGregor Avenue, Victoria, B.C.
1	January, 1943
Fisher, Douglas C.
Stoker P.O. R.C.N.V.R.
506 Avenue H. South, Saskatoon, Sask.
2	June, 1943
Fitzgerald, Michael John Signalman, R.C.N.V.II.
512 Dupont Street, Toronto, Ontario 1 January, 1944
Hagen, Edwin Richard Robert E.R.A. 3/Class, R.C.N.R.
Brant Hill, Port Dover, Ontario
1	January, 1944
Harding, Walter L.
Bond Street, Yarmouth South, Yarmouth County Nova Scotia
2	June, 1943
Helgason, Stefan Chief P.O. R.C.N.R.
206 Almon St. Halifax, N.S.
1 Jan uar y, 1944
Hetherington. William Francis P.O. Electrician. R.C.N.V.R.
174A Laurier Avenue, Asbestos, Quebec 1 January, 1943
Humphries. William George Chief E.R.A.
(Now A/Warrant Engineer)
Old Lock. 1 East Front St.
Port Dalhousie, Ontario 1 January, 1943
Lancien. John Gordon Ordinary Seaman. R.C.N.V.R.
27 Levis Avenue, Quebec, Quebec 10 October, 1943
LeFaive, Urbain Joseph E.R.A. 3/Class, R.C.N.R.
Port McNieoll, Ontario 1 January, 1943
Lemieux. Joseph Edward Stoker, P.O. R.C.N.
4554 Sussex St. Ottawa, Ontario IS October, 1940
Mitton. Donald Grant Supply Chief P.O. R.C.N.
Nictaux Falls, Nova Scotia
1	January. 1943
Paterson, James A/Chief E.R.A. R.C.N.R.
241 Wright Avenue, Toronto, Ont.
2	June, 1943
Awards jor Gallantry
[Stage Direction]
Peterson, Fred W.
Leading Steward, R.C.N.R.
305 Maynard Street, Halifax, N.S.
2	June, 1943
Simpson, Harold Francis Chief P.O. R.C.N.V.R.
27 Church Avenue, Yalois, Pointe St,
Clair, Quebec 16 October, 1943
Simpson, Robert
Chief E.R.A. (Ty) R.C.N.
1740 Bewicke Avenue, North Vancouver, B.C.
1	January, 1943
Tavlor, Alfred E.
Supply P.O. R.C.N.V.R.
North Gower, Ontario
2	June, 1943
Taylor, James A.
Chief P.O. R.C.N.R.
(Now Sub. Lieut.)
108 Oakland Street, New Westminster, B.C.
2	June, 1943
Werely, James Marshall E.R.A. 4/Class, R.C.N.R.
Morrisburg. Ontario 1 January, 1944
Whittingham, Maurice Aldred Acting Yeoman of Signals, R.C.N.Y.R.
(Now Sub. Lieut.)
101 London Street, Sherbrooke, Quebec 1 January, 1943
Wilson, Gordon Cornelius Acting A.B. R.C.N.V.R.
(Now commissioned)
87 Scollard Street, Toronto, Ontario
1	January, 1943
Wilson. J. A.
Stoker, P.O. R.C.N.V.R.
3	Station Street, Fairville, N.B.
2	June, 1943
Wood. Horace George Chief P.O. R.CJST.
417 Oak St. New Westminster, B.C.
2 June, 1943
Young, William John Acting Chief E.R.A. R.C.N.R.
Port MeNicoll, Ontario 1 January, 1944

[Stage Direction]
Coleman, Albert Robert Ernest Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.R.
(now Cdr.)
1539 Crescent Street, Montreal, Quebec
4	May, 1943
Freeland, Harry A/Lieut.-Cdr. R.C.N.R. (Temp)
69 Connaught St. Sydney, N.S.
29 June, 1943
Grant, H. T. W.
Captain, R.C.N.
Armdale, Halifax, N.S.
5	January, 1944
King, Clarence Aubrey D.S.C.
A/Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.R.
16	December, 1942
The Anchorage, Oliver, B.C.

Prentice, James Douglas Commander. R.C.N. (Temp)
(now Captain)
The Gang Ranch, B.C.
3	March, 1942
Simmons, Edward Theodore, D.S.C. Lieutenant, R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
193 Beach Drive, Victoria, B.C.
4	May, 1943
Stubbs, John Hamilton A/Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.
Kaslo, B.C.
3	December, 1942

[Stage Direction]
Allan, John Alfred Robert Sub. Lieutenant, R.C.N.V.R.
749 Wellington Crescent, Winnipeg, Manitoba 3 March, 1942
Bell, Roderick Meilicke Lieutenant, R.C.N.V.R.
1950 West 17 Avenue, Vancouver. B.C.
3	November, 1942
Bonnell, Charles Ernest Lieutenant, R.C.N.V.R.
Newtonbrooke, Ontario 6 January, 1942
Briggs, William Edgar Slade Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.R.
96 Inglis Street, Halifax, N.S.
11 June, 1942
Clark, Albert William Surg. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
Sussex, N.B.
13	October, 1942
Cowan, Peter Robert
Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (now Lieut.)
2642 Oxford St. Vancouver, B.C,
4	May, 1943
Davidson, John Alexander Lieutenant, R.C.N.V.R.
15	Springfield Avenue, Westmount, Que.
6	June, 1941
Davies, John Mortimer Lieutenant, R.C.N.V.R.
224 Princess St. Saint John, N.B.
11 June, 1942
Dobson, Andrew Hedley A/Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.R.
41 Bland St. Halifax, N.S.
25	November, 1942
Duncan, George Findlay Lieutenant, R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
487 Argyle St. Westmount, Quebec
29	September, 1942 Dyer, Kenneth Lloyd A/Lt. Cdr. R.C.N.
Grand Pre, King's County, N.S.
25	November, 1942 Earl, Leslie Nelson Lieutenant, R.C.N.V.R.
261 Russell Hill Road, Toronto, Ont.
25	November, 1942 Easton, Alan Herbert Lieutenant, R.C.N.R. (Temp)
94 Cambridge St., Halifax, N.S.
18 November, 1942 Fahrni, Gordon Paton Surg. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
756 Wellington Cres. Winnipeg, Man.
30	July, 1942

Awards for Gallantry
Forbes, Eric Keith Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
Wolfville, N.S.
29 December, 1942
Fuller, Thomas George Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
300 Somerset St. West, Ottawa, Ont. 14 July, 1942
Golby, James Wake Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
Sea view. Cadboro Bay Road, Victoria, B.C. 26 July. 1940
Gray, James Charles. MRCS, LRCP Surg. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
26	Shandon Crescent, Edinburgh, Scotland 1 January, 1943
Hanington, Daniel Lionel Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
19	Gooderieh St. Saint John, N.B.
25 November, 1942
Harris, Roland Fraser Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.R.
Pictou, N.S.
2	June, 1943
Hennessy, Ralph Lucien Lieut. R.C.N.
211 Spadina Road, Toronto, Ont.
3	December, 1942
Hibbard, James Calcutt A/Commander. R.C.N.
Hemison, St. Malachie, Quebec.
1	January, 1943
Jess, Robert Edmond Lieutenant, R.C.N.V.R.
141 Cartier Avenue, Quebec, P.Q.
4	May, 1943
Killam, David Allison
Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (now Lieut.)
1696 Laurier Avenue, Vancouver, B.C.
2	August, 1940
Koyle, Jack Eardely
Lieutenant, R.C.N.V.R.	,
753 McMillan Avenue, Winnipeg, Manitoba 25 January. 1944
Lawrence. Harold Ernest Thomas Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
47 TJnion St., Halifax, N.S.
16	December, 1942
MacMillan, Robert Cunningham (DSC and Bar)
Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)	_
11 Water St. Charlottetown, P.E.I.
1	January, 1942, 10 February, 1942
McLernon, Leslie Raphael
Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp) (now Lieut.)
3003 Cedar Avenue, Montreal, P.Q.
2 August, 1940
Miller, David Lloyd Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
70 George St. Sydney, N. 4 May, 1943
[Stage Direction]
Piers, Desmond W.
A/Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.
102 Young Avenue, Halifax, N.S. 2 June, 1943
Plomer. James
Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.V.R.	,
593 McMillan Avenue. Winnipeg, Manitoba 19 October, 1943
Rayner, Herbert Sharpies
Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.	.	.
14	Wolseley Avenue, St. Catharines, Ontario 11 March, 1941
Ruttan. John McDonald
Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp) (now Lieut.)
21 Youstellot Block, Port Arthur
27	January, 1942
Sherwood, Frederick Henry
A/Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.V.R.
Crescent Road, Rockelitfe Park, Ottawa, Ontario
23 March, 1943
Simmons, Edward Theodore
Lieutenant, R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
193 Beach Drive, Victoria, B.C.
3	March, 1942 Skinner, Edgar O.
Lieut, Cdr. R.C.N.R. (now Commander)
15	Preston St. Halifax, N.S.
11 June, 1942
Stead, Gordon Wilson Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
2908 Oak St. Vancouver, B.C.
29 September, 1942 Stephen. George Hay Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.R.
2284 Hampton Avenue, Montreal, Quo.
11 June, 1942 Teekman, Henri
Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
1744 St. Clair Ave. West, Toronto 20 October, 1942 Thomas, Roddick Barclay Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R, (Temp)
148 Quinn Boulevard, Longueuil, P.Q.
29 June, 1943
Thompson, Peter Andrew Ruttan Lieut. R.C.N.V.R, (Temp)
43 William St. Oakville, Ontario 5 May, 1942
Timbrell, Robert Walter Sub. Lieut. R.C.N. (now Lieut.)
2015 Inglewood Avenue, Hollyburn, B.C.
16	August, 1940 Wallace. Dickson C.
A/Commander, R.C.N.R.
Pictou. N.S.
1	January, 1943
Wedd. Andrew Allan
Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
360 Russell Hill Road, Toronto
2	October, 1942
Welland. Robert Philip Lieut. R.C.N. McCreary, Manitoba 11 March, 1941
Whittall, J. W.
Lieutenant. R.C.N.V.R,
27 Tudor Manor, Vancouver, B.C. 21 December, 1943
Windeyer. Guy Stanley
Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N. (Temp) (now Cdr.)
R.M.D. 2 Duncan, B.C.
25 November, 1942
Wright, William Richard Lieutenant, R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
22 Richelieu Place, Montreal, Quebec
1	January, 1944
Young, Robert MaeKenzie
Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.	,
2449 Gouin Blvd. West, Montreal, Quebec
2	November, 1943
Awards for Gallantry

[Stage Direction]
Beaman, George Lamont Osborne Stoker 1/class. R.C.N.R.
55 Berlin St. Halifax, N.S.
11 March, 1941
Biggs, Maurice Edward A/P.O. H.S.D. R.C.N.
2052 Chesterfield Avenue, North Vancouver 25 November, 1942
Bowditeh, George Fowler
Able Seaman. R.C.N. (now Petty Officer)
510 Oliver St. Victoria, B.C.
11 March, 1942
Boyer, Gerald Joseph Able Seaman, R.C.N.V.R.
302 Heron Street, Fort William, Ont.
4	May, 1943
Butchart. Arthur Alexander A/P.O. R.C.N.
3464 Imperial St., New Westminster, B.C. 25 November, 1942
Carey, Maurice Alfred Chief P.O. (Temp), R.C.N.
79 Albert St. Mimico, Ontario 1 January, 1943
Costello, Earl
Leading Smn, R.C.N.V.R.
3210 Maplewood Avenue, Apt. 7 Montreal, Quebec 3 December, 1942
Daly, Claude Francis P.O. Cook, R.C.N.V.R.
Hopewell Cape. N.B.
3	December, 1942
Gearing, Daniel William P.O. (Temp) R.C.N.
84 Augusta St., Hamilton, Ontario 1 January, 1943
Heywood, Stanley Leading Seaman, R.C.N.V.R.
Centre Road. Port Credit, Ont.
29 June, 1943
Hickie, R. W.
Acting P.O. R.C.N.R.
Fairview, Sask.
21	December, 1943
Hurst, Allen
Chief. E.R.A.. R.C.N.R.
215 Windmill Road, Dartmouth, N.S.
29 June. 1943
Kent, Donald Archibald P.O. (A/C.P.O.) R.C.N.
Pleasant Point, Halifax Co., N.S.
4	May, 1943
MacLean, Donald Ordinary Seaman, R.C.N.V.R.
29 Jean St.. Port Arthur, Ontario 4 May, 1943
Medford, Kenneth Alleyne A/Leading Seaman. R.C.N.V.R. 2144_Addington Avenue, Montreal 18 November, 1942
Mills, Leslie E.R.A. 4/Class, R.C.N.
No. 4 Normandie Apts., Victoria, B.C.
25	November, 1942
Mitchell, John E.R.A. 2/Class, R.C.R.
20	Clark St. West, Leamington. Ont.
4	May, 1943
IMr. A. L. Macdonald.1
Portree, Donald E.R.A. 4/Cl ass, R.C.N.
238 Hunter St. East, Hamilton, Ont.
3	December, 1942
Powell, Arthur Joseph Stoker P.O., R.C.N.
139 London St., Halifax, N.S.
16 December, 1942
Reid, John Wesley Able Seaman, R.C.N.V.R.
110 Sunnyside Avenue, Ottawa, Ontario
4	May, 1943
Renaud, Robert
E.R.A. 3/Class, R.C.N.R.
3333 Cook St., Victoria, B.C.
25 November, 1942
Ridge, Samuel Archibald P.O., R.C.N.
(now Chief P.O.)
39 Grasmere Newcastle on Tyne, England 11 March. 1941
Schnare, Ralph Kenneth Leading Cook, R.C.N.V.R.
Dutch Village, Fairview P.O., Halifax, N.S. 1 January, 1943
Smith, Percy Leading Seaman, R.C.N.
1340 Hamilton St., Regina, Sask.
3	December, 1942
Spence, William Chief E.R.A., R.C.N.V.R.
390 Devine St., Sarnia, Ontario 3 March, 1942
Tobin, Hugh Eugene Signalman, R.C.N.V.R.
72 Dundurn St., North Hamilton, Ont.
3	March, 1942
White, Robert Chief, E.R.A., R.C.N.
189 Antrim St.. Peterbo.ro, Ontario 1 January, 1943
Williams. David Anthony Chief Stoker, R.C.N.
Mission House, Ottawa, Ontario 1 January, 1943
Wilson. David Stoker P.O., R.C.N.
10 Ashdale Avenue, Toronto, Ontario 16 December, 1942

[Stage Direction]
(Conspicuous Gallantry Medal)
Bernays, Max Leopold A/Chief P.O., R.C.N.R.
860 Pacific St., Vancouver, B.C.

[Stage Direction]
Bett, Alfred William Mate R.C.N.R. (Temp)
347 Durie Street, Toronto, Ontario
Cook, George Douglas Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
Lakefield, Ontario 29 July. 1941
Harries, James Leslie A/Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.V.R.
376 Redfern Avenue, Westmount, Que. 28 September, 1943

Awards jor Gallantry
O'Hagan, Denis James Patrick Lieutenant, R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
(now A/Lieut. Cdr.)
218 Robie Street, Halifax, N.S.
27 June, 1941
Bar to G.M. 9 June, 1942
Rundle, George Henry Olaf Lieutenant, R.C.N.R. (Temp)
1489 Atwater Avenue, Montreal, Que. 16 October, 1943
Tellier, William Gaston Lieutenant, R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
358 Redfern Avenue, Westmount, Que. 15 May, 1942

[Stage Direction]
Faulks, Robert Boyne Petty Officer, R.C.N.
8825 85 Avenue, Edmonton, Alberta 20 December, 1941
Lay, Horatio Nelson Commander, R.C.N.
Walkerton, Ontario 26 October, 1941
Smith, Roy
Chief E.R.A., R.C.N.
(Now A/Warrant Engineer)
159 Macauley St. E„ Hamilton, Ont. 20 December, 1941
Taylor. Neville
Chief P.O. Steward, R.C.N.
236 Forest Avenue, Winnipeg, Man.
20	December, 1941

[Stage Direction]
Bailey, L. F.
Telegraphist, R.C.N.V.R.
Nashwaaksis, York Co., N.B.
MacNeil, Robert A. S.
Lieut. C.D.R., R.C.N.R.
19 Inglewood Place, Ottawa, Ont.
25 January, 1943
WAR CROSS 3rd CLASS (GREEK)-1
Adams, Kenneth Frederick Commander, R.C.N.
1790 Beech Drive, Oak Bay, Victoria 15 December, 1942

[Stage Direction]
Grant, Erland Hugh A/Leading Seaman, R.C.N.V.R.
339 Bell St., Ottawa, Ontario 26 October, 1943
Holms, W. B. L.
Commander, R.C.N.
25	Marlborough St., Victoria, B.C.
26	October, 1943
Spence, Wilbert,
Able Seaman, R.C.N.V.R.
133 Greenfield Avenue, Ottawa, Ont.
26	October, 1943

[Stage Direction]
Adam, Joseph Murray
Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
4698 4 Avenue, Vancouver, B.C.
29 July, 1943
Gordon, William Donald 53 Brenton St., Halifax, N.S.
Able Seaman, R.C.N.R.
29 July, 1943
Kane, Kenneth Edward Shipwright 4/CIass, R.C.N.V.R.
'37 Stairs St., Halifax, N.S.
17	August, 1943
Lane, Robert Louis Midshipman, R.C.N.
(now Sub. Lieut. (E) )
344 Manor Road, Rockcliffe, Ont.
22	July, 1941
Peers, Arthur F.
Commander, R.C.N. (Temp)
Quesnel, B.C.
29 July, 1943
Wells, John William
Leading Seaman, R.C.N.R.	.
Port-Aux-Basques, Grand Bay, Nfld.
29 July, 1943
Wilkins, George Arthur Lieut. (E) R.C.N.R. (Temp)
RR. No. 1, Lennoxville, Quebec
17	August, 1943

[Stage Direction]
King, Clarence Aubrey, D.S.O., D.S.C.,
Lieut. Cdr., R.C.N.R.
The Anchorage, Oliver, B.C.
27	September, 1943
MENTIONS IN DISPATCHES-280 Abramson, Max P.O. Torpedo Gunner's Mate,
R.C.N.V.R.	-
407 15 Avenue East, Calgary 25 November, 1942
Agnew, Ronald Ian Captain, R.C.N.
435 Jones Avenue, Toronto, Ont.
1	January, 1943
Allan, Peter Christie E.R.A. 11 R.C.N.V.R.
6 St., Weyburn, Sask.
1	January, 1943
Allison, James Henry Luman A/Stoker P.O. R.C.N.R.	-
39 Edward St. Halifax, N.S.
18	November, 1942
Angus. Colin James A/Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.R. (Temp)
2087 Luke St. Montreal, Quebec	i
2	June, 1943
Armstrong, Douglas B.
Lieut. (SB) R.C.N.V.R.
11 Northcliffe Blvd. Toronto 1 January, 1942
Annis, Alexander
Able Seaman, R.C.N.V.R.
Tilbury, Ontario 22 July, 1941
Awards for Gallantry
[Stage Direction]
Austin, H. E.
A/Chief P.O. R.C.N.V.R.
235 W 103 St. New York, N.Y.
2	June, 19^3
Bark, W. (Posthumous)
Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
35 Brock Avenue, S. Montreal, Que.
1 June, 1943
Barkhouse, Robert McDonald Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.R.
425 Oxford St. Halifax, N.S.
16 October, 1943
Baker, Graham McNaughton (Posthumous) Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
135 Dunvegan Road, Toronto, Ontario 21 May, 1942
Bateman, Cecil Murray S.B.A. R.C.N.V.R.
335 8th St. Brandon, Manitoba 1 January, 1943
Beard, Charles Taehereau Commander, R.C.N.
Sweetland Avenue, Ottawa, Ont.
1 January, 1943
Beck. Frederick Allan
A/Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
619 Avenue Road, Toronto, Ontario 1 January, 1944
Bell, David George E.R.A. 3/Class R.C.N.R.
430 Quebec Avenue, Toronto
1	January, 1943
Bing, John Blythe Leading Seaman,
2346 Winnipeg St. Regina, Sask.
18	November, 1942
Bird, Frederick Leading Seaman, R.C.N.
3267,Napier St. Vancouver, B.C.
2	June, 1943
Brien, Earle William
Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp) (SB)
Ridgetown, Ontario 23 February, 1943 Bonner, Albert Leo A/Yeoman of Signals, R.C.N.V.R.
108 Prince Edward St. Saint John, N.B.
2	June, 1943
Bould, Howard Desmond George Skipper, R.C.N.R.
4	Elgin Street, Quebec, Quebee 1 January, 1943
Boulton, Angus George A/Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.V.R.
Russell, Manitoba, and Bank of Montreal, 77 Madison Avenue, Toronto, Ontario 1 January, 1943
Brock, Frederick Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
Rothesay, N.B.
14	September, 1943
Brock, John Lieut, R.C.N.V.R.
(Now A/Lieut. Cdr.)
Rothesay, N.B.
1 January, 1944
Browne. Victor Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
55 Delaware Avenue, Ottawa, Ontario 1 January, 1944

Budge, Patrick David Commissioned Gunner (t)
(Now Lieut.)
Apt. 3, 60 Victoria Road^ Halifax, N.S.
18 February, 1941
Burk, Charles Arthur Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
43 Gormley Avenue, Toronto 4 May, 1943
By dwell, Leslie Wellington A/Chief E.R.A. R.C.N.V.R.
8320 Jeunesse St. Montreal, Que.
25 November, 1942
Caldwell, John Birch Lieutenant (E), R.C.N.
150 Church St. Amherst, N.S.
11 January, 1944
Campbell, Angus Hector Chief Skipper, R.C.N.R.
Big Bras d'Or, Victoria County, N.S.
18 May, 1943
Campbell, William Franklin (Posthumous) Lieut, Cdr. R.C.N.V.R.
Albert Avenue, Saskatoon, Sask.
1	January, 1944
Casey, Joseph William Motor Mechanician, R.C.N.V.R.
Bedford P.O., Halifax Co. N.S.
4	May, 1943
Cavanaugh, Thomas Vernon Ordinary Seaman, R.C.N.V.R.
184 Gore Street, Perth, Ontario 29 June, 1943
Chadwick, Ernest Maurice Sub. Lieut, R.C.N.
1156 Goodwin St. Victoria, B.C.
25 November, 1942
Chandler, Wallace Harold Stoker P.O. R.C.N.R.
57 Thorne Avenue, Saint John, N.B.
11 June, 1942
Chapman, Neil Henley Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
249 Pembroke St. Pembroke, Ont.
18 November, 1942
Charrier, Joseph Georges A/leading Smn. R.C.N.
3038 Dickson St. Montreal, Que.
11 June, 1942
Clarke, George
Leading Steward, R.C.N.R.
Westfield Golf Club Westfield, N.B.
2	June, 1943
Clark, Gordon Matthew Leading Sig. R.C.N.V.R.
25 Somerset Avenue, Toronto, Ontario
2	June, 1943
Clarke, John Henry Able Seaman, R.C.N.
Radville, Sask.
3	December, 1942
Clarke, Samuel Anderson Chief E.R.A. R.C.N.R.
(now A/Warrant Engineer (Temp) )
Grand Lake Road, Sydney, N.S.
18 November, 1942

Awards for Gallantry
Coles, George Edward A/Petty Officer, R.C.N.
893 Robie Street, Halifax, N.S.
2	June, 1943
Conrad, Charles Tupper A/leading Cook (S) R.C.N.V.R.
100 Gottingen St., Halifax, N.S.
Cook, Richard Petty Officer, R.C.N.R.
152 North St. Halifax, N.S.
2	June, 1943
Cooke, Sidney Telegrapher, R.C.N.V.R.
Box 113, Hudson, Quebec
Corns, Sidney R.
Ordinary Seaman, R.C.N.V.R.
27	Elgin St. Brantford, Ontario 2 June, 1943
Cowie, William Herbert Stoker Petty Officer 98 Hope St. Toronto, Ont.
1 January 1943
Cranney, Jess Lloyd Able Seaman, R.C.N.V.R.
1073 2 Avenue East, Owen Sound. Ont. 25 November. 1942 Cross, Paul Barbour Commander, R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
177 Canterbury St. Saint John, N.B.
1 January 1943
Culley, Kenneth Benjamin
Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
1418 Tower Avenue, Montreal, Quebec 16 December, 1942 Dallaire, Paul Emile Signalman, R.C.N.V.R.
3435 Dezery St. Montreal, Quebec 18 November, 1942
Day, Alexander Earle Ordinary Telegraphist. R.C.N.y.R.
48 Queen St. Belleville, Ontario 4 November, 1941
Debney, Howard E.R.A. 4/class, R.C.N.V.R.
9	Alton Avenue, Toronto, Ontario 1 January 1943
DeWolf, Harry George Commander, R.C.N.
Halifax, N.S. (No other address given) 1 January, 1941
Dewolf, Henry George Captain, R. C. N.
Halifax, N.S.
1 January, 1943 Donaldson, John Norman Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
1009 Avenue Road, Toronto, Ont.
4	May, 1943
Downey, George Norval
Skipper Lieut. R.C.N.R. (Temp)
Bath Road P.O., Kingston, Ont.
1 January, 1944
Dicks, Thomas Alfred Henry
Chief P.O. R.C.N.
308 Holmwood Ave. Ottawa, Ont.
I	January, 1943
Ditmars, Eric Soulis
Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
3637 Pine Crescent. Vancouver, B.C.
II	November, 1941
Duchesne, Julien
Regulating Petty Officer, R.C.N.
3949 Berri St. Montreal, Que.
11 June, 1942
Duggan, James Philip Ashton Lieut. R.C.N.R. (Temp)
11 South Promenade Isle of Man (Ramsay)
1 January, 1943
Duke, Andrew Paul
Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (now A/Lieut. Cdr)
1800 Sherbrooke St. West, Montreal
1	January, 1943
Duncan, George Findlay Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
487 Argyle St. Westmount, Quebec 3 March, 1942
Dunlop, Daniel Turnbull
Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (now Lieut.)
2327 Windermere Road, Windsor, Ont.
25 November, 1942
Ellis, W. E.
l'.O. Telegraphist, R.C.N.
747 Clifton Avenue, Niagara Falls, Ont.
2	June, 1943
English. H. S.
Chief P.O. R.C.N.R.
710 Queen St. Sault St. Marie, Ont.
18 August, 1943
Evans, Leighton
Chief Skipper, R.C.N.R. (Temp)
3552	West 38th. Avenue, Vancouver, B.C.
1	January, 1943
Fafard, Charles Omar Signalman, R.C.N.V.R.
1929 Tupper St. Montreal, Quebec 18 May, 1943
Falkuer, James Alexander Duncan Lieutenant, R.C.N.VJR.
21	lie Casson Road. Westmount. Quebec 29 May, 1943
Faubert, Rene
Able Seaman. R.C.N.V.R.
3553	Gerouard St. N.D.G. Montreal, Que. 16 December, 1942
Feaver, Donald E.R.A. 4/elass, R.C.N.R.
440 McKenzie St. Fort William, Ont.
2	June, 1943
Foster, George William Stoker, 1/class, R.C.N.
Cumberland St. Lake Hill Victoria, B.C.
Foxall, Leslie Lewendon A/Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.R. (Temp)
Naval Barracks, Esquimalt, B.C.
2 June, 1943
Franklin. Wilfred R.
A/Chief P.O. R.C.N.V.R.
92 Shore Road, Dartmouth, N.S.
2 June, 1943
Fraser' Gilbert Goodwin Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
513 Transit Road, Oak Bay, Victoria, B.C. 11 June, 1942
Furlong, Michael P.
Petty Officer, R.C.N.V.R.
Morell, P.E.I.
2 June, 1943
Axvards jor Gallantry
[Stage Direction]
Gentles, R. A.
Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
527 Lakeshore Road, Toronto, Ont.
7 September, 1943
George, Robert Edward Leading Stoker, R.C.N.R.
RR No. 1 Canning, King's County, N.S.
19	May, 1942
Giffin, Ainsley Gordon Chief Stoker, R.C.N.R.
Lunenburg, N.S.
I	January, 1943
Gilmour, Thomas
Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.R. (now A/Cdr.)
9673 Notre Dame St. East, Montreal, Que.
II	June, 1942
Glossop, Francis Master-at-Arms, R.C.N.
Listowel, Ontario 1 January, 1943
Golby, Thomas M. W. (Posthumous) A/Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.R. (Temp) Duncan, B.C.
2	June, 1943
Greenwood, G. M. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. Duncan, B.C.
2 June, 1943
(Temp)
Speight, Lenn
Petty Officer, R.C.N. (now Warrant rank) 38 Blair St. St. Catharines, Ontario 19 August, 1943
Warrick, A.
Ordinary Seaman, R.C.N.V.R.
402 16 St. Brandon, Manitoba 21 December, 1943
Gillis, Daniel Everett (Posthumous)
Chief Motor Mechanic, R.C.N.R.
83 Cumberland St. Charlottetown, P.E.I. 4 November, 1941
Gordon, Lloyd Murchison Able Seaman, R.C.N.V.R.
Clyde River, Prince Edward Is.
16	December, 1942
Gow, John Alexander Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp) .
1376 Esquimalt Road, Esquimalt, B.C. 1 January, 1943
Griffin, Anthony George Scott Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
(now A/Lieut. Cdr.)
36 James St. South Hamilton, Ontario 18 November, 1942
Griffin, Frederick Elswood Lieutenant, R.C.N.V.R.
706 Dorchester St. Winnipeg, Man. 10 March, 1942
Griffiths, George H.
A/Commander, (now Cdr.) R.C.N. (Temp) Upwood Farm, Berwick, Hants Co. N.S.
1	January, 1943
Griffiths. John Charles Chief E.R.A. R.C.N.V.R.
651 George St. North Battleford, Sask. 11 June, 1942
Grubb, Frederick Ernest Lieut. R.C.N.
23	Redpath Place, Montreal, Quebec 19 May, 1942

Guersette, Joseph Antonio Rene Ordinary Seaman, R.C.N.V.R.
2 Windsor Avenue, Apt. 5, Sherbrooke, Que.
1	January, 1944
Guildford, Thomas Kerr Able Seaman, R.C.N.V.R.
6 Ivanhoe St. Halifax, N.S.
4	November, 1941
Habart, Horace Bruce A/Leading Smn. R.C.N.V.R.
667 King St. West, Toronto, Ont.
2	June, 1943
Hackney, William Watt Lieut. R.C.N.R.
Westphal, Halifax, Co. N.S.
18 November, 1942 Harbour, Frank Rene Acting P.O.
2021 Grand Trunk Pte. St. Charles Montreal, Quebec 11 January, 1944
Harbroe, Frederick Marice Leading Seaman, R.C.N.V.R.
1716 St. Louis Ave, Sandwich E. Ont.
1	January, 1943
Harte, Francis David Weston Leading Seaman, R.C.N.V.R.
2718 Chabot St. Montreal, Quebec
2	June, 1943
Hartley, Maurice Samuel Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
5	Woodward Avenue, London, Ontario 11 June, 1942
Hatrick. Raymond Gardiner Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
3940 Cote de Neiges Road. Montreal, Quebec 4 May, 1943
Hay, J. M.
Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
276 Rockland Road, St. John, N.B.
2 June, 1943
Heard, Trevor Frederick Leading Writer, R.C.N.V.R.
(now Lieut.)
58 Hampton Avenue, Toronto, Ontario
25	November, 1942
Hendry. George Ainslie (Posthumous)
Surg. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
339 Walmer Road, Toronto, Ontario 1 January, 1943
Hermann, Charles Bismarck Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
84 Waverly St. Ottawa, Ontario 1 January, 1944
ITenshaw, V.
Stoker 1st. Class, R.C.N.V.R.
Mayne Island, B.C.
21	December, 1943
Hetherington, Thomas Alexander Reg. P.O. R.C.N.
Sarcee Reserve, Calgary, Alberta
1	January, 1943
Heward, John Edisforth Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.VR. (Temp)
(now Lieut.)
462 Mountain Avenue, Westmount, Quebec
26	July, 1940
Hickey, L. A.
Skipper Lieut. R.C.N.R.
15	Preston St. Halifax, N.S.
2	June, 1943

Awards for Gallantry
Hicks, Robert G.
Leading Telegrapher, R.C.N.V.R.	.
2161 Dawlist Avenue, Niagara Falls, Ontario 2 June, 1943
Hilton, Frank Biddulph Reg. P.O. R.C.N.V.R.
(now Master-at-Arms)
715 King St. Loudon, Ontario
1	January, 1943
Hodgkinson, John James Lieut. R.C.N.R.
681 Melrose Avenue, Verdun, Quebec
2	J une, 1943
Hodgkinson, John James A/Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.R.
681 Melrose Avenue, Verdun, Quebec
18	August, 1943
Holmes, Lawrence William Leading Telegrapher, (Temp), R.C.N. Smooth Rock Falls, Ontario
1	January, 1943
Hyslop, Clifton Thomas Williams Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
27	Connaught Avenue South Hamilton, Ontario
20	October, 1942
Hunter, William Edward Signalman, R.C.N.V.R.
69 Mayfair Avenue, Toronto, Ont.
4 November, 1941
Holingworth, B. H.
A/Leading Sig. R.C.N.V.R.
2654 Rozil Avenue, Pte. St. Charles Montreal, Quebec
2	June, 1943
Horne, Leslie (Posthumous)
Able Seaman R.C.N.V.R.
489 Atlantic Avenue, Winnipeg, Man.
25	November, 1942
Hughes, Edwin Thompson
Acting Leading Seaman, R.C.N.V.R.
374 E. Francis St. Fort William, Ont.
Husher, John
Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
199 Sherwood Ave. London, Ont.
19	October, 1943
Hutchings, Frank Goddard Lieut. R.C.N.R. (Temp)
(now A/Lieut. Cdr)
164 44 Ave., Laehine, Quebec 1 January, i944
Johnson, Arnold Livingstone Surg. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
2560 Pie IX Blvd., Apt. 8,
Montreal, Quebec
3	December, 1942
Joy, A. P. G.
Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
295 Gleneairn Ave., Toronto, Ont.
21	December, 1943
Judges, Ronald Alfred Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
Now A/Lieut. Cdr.
282 Armadale Avenue, Toronto, Ont.
1 January, 1944
Katanna, W.
Leading Stoker, R.C.N.V.R.
230 1 St. East. Geraldton, Ont.
21 December 1943
Kehoe. William Eric Able Seaman, R.C.N.R.
21 Birch Avenue, N. Toronto, Ontario 19 August, 1943
Kerry, Walter Robert Chief Stoker, R.C.N.
4333 Francis St., Vancouver Heights, Vancouver, B.C.
1 January, 1943
Kidston, John Richard Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
Box 1128, Vernon, B.C.
1	January, 1944
Kitchen, Cyril Frederick (posthumous) A/Leading Stoker, R.C.N.R. _
51 York Road, Dundas, Ontario 15 September, 1942 Koyl, Jack Eardley
Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.	.
753 McMillen Avenue, Winnipeg, Manitoba 21 December, 1943
Lade, H. E.
Lieut. R.C.N.R. (Temp)
P.O. Box 62, Brooklin, Ont.
2	June, 1943
LaDeroute, Norbert Joseph E.R.A. 3/Class, R.C.N.R.
405 N. Syndicate Ave.; Fort William, Ont.
1	January, 1943 Ladner, Thomas Ellis Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
1837 Matthews Avenue, Vancouver, B.C.
10	November, 1942 Lalonde, Albert J.
Chief E.R.A., R.C.N.R .
32 Sydenham St., Kingston, Ontario
2	June, 1943
Law. Charles Anthony Francis Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
220 Grande Allee, Quebec, Quebec 31 March, 1942 Leggett, Harry Furness Able Seaman, R.C.N. [DOT]
Victoria. B.C.
18	October, 1940
Lawrence, Harold Ernest Thomas Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
(Now Lieut.)
47 Union St. Halifax, N.S.
19	May, 1942
Johnson, Frederick James Gordon, Lieutenant, R.C.N.V.R.
Invermere, B.C.,
1 January, 1943.
Leckie, Norman S.B.A., R.C.N.V.R.
770 Glasgow St.. London, Ont.
3	December, 1942
Lehto, Leo Paul Able Seaman, R.C.N.R.
Box 441, Sioux, Lookout, Ont.
3	March, 1942
Lester, Richard Kingsley
Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
2360 Marine Drive, West Vancouver British Columbia 25 November, 1942
Levesque, Joseph Ange Maurice Lieut. R.C.N.R. (Temp)
137 Ste-Anne St. Quebec, P.Q.
1 January, 1944
Awards jor Gallantry
[Stage Direction]
Levirs, Woolston John
Leading Smn. (Sailmaker's Mate) R.C.N.V.R. 2018 Stanley Victoria, B.C.
1	January, 1943 Lewis, David James Sub Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
31 Ramesay Road, Westmount, Quebec
2	October, 1942 Littler, John C.
Lieut. R.C.N.R. (Temp)
Strathcona Hotel, Victoria, B.C.
1 January, 1943
Logie, Donald
Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
173 Princess St. Saint John, N.B.
1	January, 1944
Lowe, D. S.
Chief Stoker P.O., R.C.N.
Esquimalt, B.C.
2	June, 1943
MacLean, Douglas Thistle Ord. Smn. R.C.N.V.R.
(now' Sub. Lieut.)
Box 21, Barrhead, Alberta 16 December, 1942
McCouney, Allen Edward A/Leading _ Sum. R.C.N.V.R.
275 Glencairn Avenue, Toronto, Ont.
25 November, 1942
McCormick, Keith Leading Stoker, R.C.N.R.
Pelee Island, Ontario
3	December, 1942
McGregor, Lloyd John Petty Officer,. R.C.N.V.R.
89 Edgemont Avenue North Hamilton. Ont.
21 December, 1943
McAlpine. Edward Chief E.R.A., R.C.N.R.
6990 De L'Epee Avenue, Montreal, Quebec 2 June, 1943
McGuire, James Patrick E.R.A. 3/01 ass, R.C.N.V.R.
5475 8 Avenue. Montreal, Quebec
1	January, 1943
McGuire, J. P.
E.R.A. 3/class, R.C.N.V.R.
5475 8th. Ave. Montreal, Quebec
2	June, 1943
McIntyre, Buryi A. S.
Ordinary Seaman, R.C.N.V.R.
61 Province St. S., Hamilton, Ont.
2 October. 1942
McLarnon. Alexander McAllister Lt. Cdr. R.C.N.R.
5	Lincoln St., Manchester, Mass.
2 June, 1943
McGee, Donald
P.O. Telegrapher, R.C.N.
463 Tecumseh Avenue, London, Ontario 2 June, 1943
Mcllhagga. Liston Burns Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
944 Slierburn St., Winnipeg, Manitoba 5 October, 1942
McLean, Timothy Blair Surg. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
10621 83 Avenue, Edmonton, Alberta 18 October, 1940
IMr. A. L. Macdonald.!
McLeish, John Alexander Fowler Mate, R.C.N.R. (Temp)
36 Ballrack Avenue, Prestwick Ayrshire Co. Scotland
18 November, 1942
McMahon, Harold J.
Stoker 1/Class, R.C.N.R.
324 Blanche St., Sarnia, Ont.
2 June, 1943
McQueen, Leonard Andrew A/Yeoman of Signals, R.C.N.V.R.
165 Guilford St., Saint John, N.B.
1	January, 1943
Mahar, Wilfred J.
A/Petty Officer, R.C.N.V.R.
303 Fitzroy St., Charlottetown, P.E.I.
2	Juue, 1943
Mainguy, Edmond Rollo Commander, R.C.N.
Heanitree Farm, Herd Road, Duncan VI, B.C.
1	January, 1941
Marshall, Jordan Hamilton A/Lt. Cdr. R.C.N.V.R.
(now Lieut. Cdr.)
31 Ellis Ave. Windsor, Ont.
2	June, 1943
Martin, Douglas Sutherland Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.R. (Temp)
103 Victoria Road, Halifax, N.S.
3	December, 1942
Martin. John Trevor Able Seaman, R.C.N.
P.O. Box 343, Ottawa, Ontario 29 June, 1043
Mayne, Arthur Hugh Shaw Lieutenant. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
299 Grosvenor Avenue, Westmount,
Montreal, Quebec 1 January, 1943
Medford. Kenneth Alleyne A/Leading Seaman, R.C.N.V.R.
2144_ Addington Avenue. Montreal 18 November, 1942
Merryw'eather, Hugh (posthumous)
Coder. R.C.N.V.R.
9818 103<rd St. Edmonton, Alberta
I	January, 1944
Middleton, Robert Earl Acting Leading Seaman, R.C.N.
(now P.O.)
107 Park Hill Blvd., Peterboro, Ont.
18 February, 1941
Miles, George Ralph, OBE Commander R.C.N.
33 Seeley St.. Saint John, N.B.
II	January, 1944
Miller. Stanley Frennor Able Seaman, R.C.N.
208 11 St. Saskatoon, Sask.
4	May, 1943
Mills. Ernest George Chief E.R.A. R.C.N.
308 Robert St. Victoria, B.C.
11 January, 1944
Mills. Michael Stuart
Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
11 Thornwood Road, Toronto, Ont.
21 October, 1941

Awards for Gallantry
Mitchell, Bruce Richard Able Seaman, R.C.N.V.R.
38 Lockwood Road, Toronto, Ont.
3	December, 1942
Mitchinson, Norman, A.W.R.K.

[Stage Direction]
2376 Barker St. Niagara Falls, Ont.
2 October, 1942
Moist, Frederick Harold Chief P.O. R.C.N.V.R.
328 Michigan St. Victoria, B.C.
1	January, 1943
Moore, Charles Henry Edwin Leading Seaman, Leading Torpedo Operator R.C.N.V.R.	.
12	Stonehouse Cres. Toronto, Ontario 25 November, 1942
Moorhouse, Arthur Lieut. R.C.N.R. (Temp)
74 Harvard St. Halifax, N.S.
2	June, 1943
Moore, Stuart Grant Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.
2316 E 11 Ave. Vancouver, B.C.
17	February, 1942
More, Edward M.
Lieut. R.C.N.R. (Temp)
Liverpool, N.S.
2 June, 1943
Morgan, Frederick Joseph Leading Signalman, R.C.N.R. _
Idlewyld Road, Armdale, Halifax, N.S.
11 June, 1942
Morris, Edgar
Chief Stoker, R.C.N.V.R.
41	Latimer Avenue, Toronto, Ontario 25 November, 1942
Mosher, R. M.
Lieutenant, R.C.N.R. (Temp)
Armdale P.O. Halifax, N.S.
2 June, 1943
Moxley, Henry William Atthelstan Lieutenant, R.C.N.V.R.
633 Eastern Avenue, Toronto, Ont.
1	June, 1943
Muir, John George Ordinary Seaman, R.C.N.V.R.
1128) 4th Ave. Owen Sound, Ontario
2	June, 1943
Murray, L. W.	_ tt _
Leading Signalman, R.C.N.V.R.
1578 Davenport Road, Toronto, Ontario
1 June, 1943
Myra, George Abraham
Skipper Lieut. R.C.N.R. (Temp)
P.O. Box 61, Lunenburg, N.S.
1 January, 1944
Neely, Melvin Orton William
Leading Stoker, R.C.N.R.
314 Nenson St. Sarnia, Ontario 8 May, 1943
Newcomb, Frank Edward Chief Petty Officer, R.C.N.R.
Hantsport, Nova Scotia
1	January, 1944 Northgrave, Glen Allen
Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
RR No. 1 York Mills, Ontario
2	October, 1942
O'Hara, Ian Wallace (Posthumous) Ordinary Seaman, R.C.N.V.R.
10 Springfield Ave., Westmount, Quebec 4 November, 1941
Oliphant, William Leading Stoker, R.C.N.V.R.
Carbon, Alberta
1	January, 1944
Osburn, Anthony George Lieutenant, R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
1550 W 15 Avenue, Vancouver, B.C.
18	November, 1942
Parr, Alex McDonnell E.R.A. 3/Class, R.C.N.R.
1342 Nelson St. Vancouver, B.C.
16	December, 1942
Patry, Joseph Edmond Chief Stoker, R.C.N.
Apt. D, 145 Scott St. Quebec, Que.
3	December, 1942
Paver, E. A.
P.O. Stoker, R.C.N.
1428 Denman St. Victoria, B.C.
2	June, 1943
Pavillard, Louis Raymond Lieut. R.C.N.R.
(now A/Lieut. Cdr.)
22	Tobin St. Halifax, N.S.
1 January, 1944
Patterson, Howard Arnold Ordinary Seaman, R.C.N.
Lawrence Avenue, Kelowna, B.C.
18 October, 1940
Peattie, Edward Younger A/Chief E.R.A. R.C.N.R.
Edward St. Powassan P.O. Ontario 1 January, 1943
Peterkin, Douglas Hugh Able Seaman, R.C.N.V.R.
732 Manning St. Verdun, Quebec 18 May, 1943
Peterson, Charles Lieutenant, R.C.N.R. (Temp)
88 Oakland Road, Halifax, N.S.
15 September, 1942
Pickard, Antony Fenwick Mate, R.C.N.R. (Temp)
(now Lieut.)
Paymaster Mines, South Porcupine, Ont.
3	March, 1942
Pickford, Reginald John Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
1120 Bernard Avenue, Apt. 26 Outremont, Montreal, Quebec 26 July, 1940
Pidcoek, Paul Mortimer Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
3637 University St. Montreal, Que.
10 November, 1942
Plant, Frank O.
Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
170 Clemow Avenue, Ottawa, Ontario 25 November, 1942
Pleasance, Ernest Stanley Nelson Skipper Lieut. R.C.N.R. (Temp)
228 Second St. Collingwood, Ontario 1 January, 1944

[Stage Direction]
Awards jor Gallantry
[Stage Direction]
Pope, William
Lieut. (E) R.C.N.R. (Temp)
4558 West 15 Avenue, Vancouver, B.C.
25 November, 1942
Powell, John A.
Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
290 Coltrin Road, Rockcliffe Park, Ont.
22	August, 1942
Pullen, Hugh Francis Commander, R.C.N. [DOT]
Oakville, Ontario	.
1	January, 1943
Raine, J. B.
Lieut. R.C.N.R. (Temp)
586 Sherbrooke St. Peterboro, Ont.
2	June, 1943
Randell, Egbert Lieutenant, R.C.N.R. (Temp)
4517 Hingston Avenue, N.D.G. Montreal, Que. 1 January, 1943
Reid, James Quincey
Chief Motor Mechanic, III R.C.N.R.
North Sydney, N.S.
1	January, 1943
Reddon, Richard A.
Ordinary Seaman, R.C.N.V.R.
Olds, Alberta
2	June, 1943
Rees, Arthur Joseph Roger Acting Chief E.R.A. R.C.N.V.R.
2864 West 3rd Ave. Calgary 1 January, 1944
Rhoades, Henry Mason Cook, R.C.N.V.R.
408 Sicard Avenue, Maisonneuve, Montreal 22 July, 1941
Ritson-Bennett, William Martin Able Seaman, R.C.N.R.
924 Riverdale Avenue, Calgary, Alberta
1	January, 1944
Robertson, C.A.
Chief Motor Mechanic, R.C.N.V.R.
303 E44 Avenue, Vancouver, B.C.
21	December, 1943
Robertson, Donald Morrison Able Seaman, R.C.N.
Main St. Watrous, Sask.
22	July, 1941
Robson, Robert Gordon Mate, R.CfN.R. (Temp)
2924 Marine Drive, West Vancouver, B.C.
2	June, 1943
Ross, Charles A.
Chief E.R.A. R.C.N.R.
1145 Greenwood Avenue. Toronto, Ont.
2 June, 1943
Ross, James Richard Henry Able Seaman, R.C.N.
369 E30 Avenue, Vancouver, B.C.
18	October, 1940
Ruddle-Browne, Herbert William Mate, R.C.N.R. (Temp)
22 Elm St. West, Apt. 44 Sudbury, Ontario
19	May, 1942
Rutherford, Clark Anderson (Posthumous) A/Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.
465 Pleasant Avenue, Westmount, Que.
1 January, 1943

Saint-Martin, Jean, M.D.
Surgeon Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
2364 Fullum St. Montreal, Que.
1 January, 1944
Saulnier, Joseph Melbourne Able Seaman. R.C.N.V.R.
Meteghan River, Digby Co., N.S.
29 June, 1943
Saunders, George Joseph Able Seaman, R.C.N.V.R.
5553 11 Avenue, Rosemont, Montreal, Que.
18 November, 1942
Saunderson, James Benjamin Acting P.O. R.C.N.V.R.
Hurdman's Bridge, Ontario 1 January, 1944
Scott. Hugh Stoker. P.O. R.C.N.R.
Pine Lodge, Rawdon, Que.
I	January, 1944
Scullion, Michael Joseph Able Seaman, R.C.N.V.R.
3137 Wellington St. Verdun, Que.
3	December, 1942
Sehuthe, George McDonald Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
5658 Dalhousie Road, Vancouver, B.C.
16 October, 1943
Senior, Charles Robin Arthur Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
333 Metcalfe St. Ottawa, Ont.
18 May, 1943
Sharpe, James Arthur Able Seaman, R.C.N.
R.R. 1 Royal Oak, B.C.
II	June. 1942
Shaw, Edward Pearce Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
4	Havilland St. Charlottetown, P.E.I.
1 January, 1943
Sisson. Melvin Roy Able Seaman, R.C.N.R.
1504 West 5 St. Vancouver, B.C.
1	January. 1943
Skeggs, Charles Frederick A/Leading Seaman, R.C.N.V.R.
953 Hackett St. London Ontario 16 December, 1942
Slavin, John Vincent Ordinary Seaman, R.C.N.VR.
855 Church Avenue, Verdun, Que.
4	November, 1941
Stannard, Leslie A.
Able Seaman, R.C.N.V.R.
124 Talbot Avenue, Winnipeg, Man.
2	June, 1943
Stephen. George H. D.S.C. O.B.E.
Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.R.
2284 Hampton Avenue, Montreal, Que.
2 June, 1943
Stairs. John Fitzwilliam Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.V.R.
25 Ste. Genevieve St. Quebec, Que.
18 May, 1943
Stanlev. Alfred George Lieut. ~ Cdr. R.C.N.R.
Stormont, Country Harbour, N.S.
18 May, 1943

Awards jor Gallantry
St. Pierre, Francis Able Seaman, R.C.N.
Camrose, Alberta 18 October, 1940
Strom, Axel
Motor Mechanic R.C.N.R.
42	West 62 Street, Vancouver, B.C.
1	January. 1943
Stuart, Robert Innes E.R.A. 4/class R.C.N.V.R.
212 5 Avenue, Ottawa, Ont.
18 November, 1942
Sutherland, Donald Marshall Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
(now Lieut.)
340 Main St. N., Weston, Ont.
6	January, 1942
Sutherland, Walter Frederick Leading Telegrapher, R.C.N.V.R.
749 Riverview Avenue, Verdun, Que.
3	December, 1942
Symons, Douglas Bond Lieutenant, R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
47	Warren Road, Toronto, Ontario
24	February, 1942
Taggart, Harry Reid Steward, R.C.N.V.R.
48	Edward St. Halifax, N.S.
3	December. 1942
Thomasset, G. M.
Acting Chief P.O. R.C.N.
P.O. Box 45, Fife Lake. Sask.
2	June, 1943
Thompson, Peter Andrew Ruttan Lieutenant, R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
43	W'illiam St., Oakville, Ont.
15	September,. 1942
Thompson, Peter Andrew Ruttan Sub. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
43 William St., Oakville, Ont.
26	July, 1940
Tibbetts, Hugh Alan Leigh Lieutenant, R.C.N.V.R.
221 Nelson St. Fort Francis, Ont.
16	March, 1943
Titus, Walter Edward Weir A/Leading Stoker, R.C.N.R.
Westport, Digby Co., N.S.
2 June, 1943 Trottier, Frederick A.
Petty Officer, R.C.N.
73 Arlington Ave, Ottawa, Ont.
25	November, 1942
Udell, Frank Ernest K.
Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
423 St. Joseph's Blvd. E. Apt. 4 Montreal Que.
13	October, 1942
Vet, Jan
Chief E.R.A. R.C.N.R. (now A/Warrant) 4562 St. Catherine St. East, Montreal, Que. 1 January, 1943
Walker, J. R.
Lieut. (SB) R.C.N.V.R.
4	Lauder Ave. Toronto 1 J anuary, 1944
Walkley, John Molson (Posthumous)
Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
4390 Oxford Ave., N.D.G., Montreal, Que.
22 December, 1942
100-92J
Wallace, William Bruce Surg. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
211 Dunnigan Road, Toronto, Ont.
11 January, 1944
Warwick, Ralph Berton Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.V.R. (Temp)
Westfield Centre, King's County, N.B.
1 J an uary, 1944
Waters, Donald MacKenzie Midshipman, R.C.N.
(now Sub. Lieut.)
267 Roxborough St. E., Toronto, Ont.
8 January, 1942
Watson, Kenneth William (Posthumous) Ordinary Seaman, R.C.N.
Box 545, Revelstoke, B.C.
3	December, 1942
Whelan, E.
Motor Mechanic, R.C.N.V.R.
Box 144, Orangeville, Ont.
21 December, 1943
Whelan, E.
A/Petty Officer, R.C.N.V.R.
Orangeville, Ont.
4	May, 1943
White, Alexander A.
Chief P.O. R.C.N.
373 Maryland St. Winnipeg, Man.
25 November, 1942
White, John Cyril Able Seaman, R.C.N.V.R.
943 Dame St., London, Ont.
18 August, 1943
Whittall, James William Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
27	Tudor Manor, Vancouver, B.C.
4	May, 1943
Whynot, Roger Rodman
Leading Supply Assistant, R.C.N.V.R.
Mahone Bay, N.S.
3	December, 1942
Wilkinson, Joseph' Graham Petty Officer Telegraphist, R.C.N.
563 McMillan Ave., Winnipeg, Man.
25 November, 1942
Wilkinson, Norman Leslie A/Gunner, R.C.N.
Brandon, Man.
3	December, 1942
Wilson. James Sutherland Lieut. Cdr. R.C.N.V.R.
206 Barrington St. Halifax, N.S.
11 June, 1942
Wilson. R.F.
Lieut. R.C.N.V.R. no address given 1 January, 1944
Winn, J. W.
A/Chief P.O. R.C.N.R.
17	Land St., Hamilton, Ont.
29 June, 1943
Wiseman, Carl William P.O. Electrician, R.C.N.V.R.
Newport, N.S.
1 January, 1943
Woodliffe, Michael Frederick Able Seaman, R.C.N.V.R.
638 5 St. Saskatoon, Sask.
29 May, 1943
Awards for Gallantry
[Stage Direction]
Wright, W. M.
A/E. R. A. 4/class, R.C.N.V.R.
37 Dalkeith Avenue, Hamilton, Ontario
2	June, 1943
Young, E. J. R. W.
Lieutenant, R.C.N.V.R. no address given 21 December, 1943 Young, Morris Henry Able Seaman, R.C.N.V.R.
7503 Querbes Avenue, Montreal, Que.
3	December, 1942
Young, Robert MacKenzie Temp. Lieut. R.C.N.V.R.
2449 Gouin Blvd. West Montreal, Quebec 10 November, 1942

[Stage Direction]
The following is a complete record of all nonoperational awards granted to members of the Naval Service since the outbreak of hostilities up to, and including, the present date:
O.B.E	
M.B.E	
B.	E.M	
C.	B	
C.B.E	
A.R.R.C	
Royal Humane Society...
Bar Palestine	
Commendation	
King's Dirk	
Albert Medal (life saving)
17
3
3
6
1
67

[Stage Direction]
On the order for first reading of senate bills:
Mr. SPEAKER:: If the house agrees I shall refer to these bills by number.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Mr. Speaker, before this motion is carried I desire to take advantage of the opportunity which it presents to reaffirm the position which I have taken in regard to this matter.


Thomas Vien: The first reading of senate bills is not debatable.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I do not know why I cannot speak now. I can speak on the question of procedure, I believe. I am not consenting to this at the moment.


Thomas Vien: Standing order 71 provides:
When any bill is presented by a member, in pursuance of an order of the house, or is brought from the Senate, the question, "That this bill be now read a first time," shall be decided without debate or amendment.


Mr. CHURCH:: May not the house refuse leave?



FIRST READINGS-SENATE BILLS

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 10, for the relief of Theodore Zalopany.-Mr. Gray.
Bill No. 11, for the relief of Thelma Alice Warren Whittet.-Mr. Fulford.

Bill No. 12, for the relief of Ethel Sangster Muir.-Mr. Factor.
Bill No. 13, for the relief of Kiril John Christo.-Mr. Gray.
Bill No. 14, for the relief of Helaine Ethel Leopold Lax.-Mr. Mcllraith.
Bill No. 15, for the relief of Cecil Benjamin Pomeroy.-Mr. Mcllraith.
Bill No. 16, for the relief of Pinnie Rosenhek Leopold.-Mr. Casselman (Grenville-Dundas).
Bill No. 17, for the relief of Paul Sanson White.-Mr. Fulford.
Bill No. 18, for the relief of Mary Hope Beers Ross.-Mr. Mcllraith.
Bill No. 19, for the relief of Wasyl Usypchuk, otherwise known as William Usypchuk.-Mr. Factor.
Bill No. 20, for the relief of Walter Stanley Spencer.-Mr. Fulford.
Bill No. 21, for the relief of Emma Gertrude Groves Morris.-Mr. Hill.
Bill No. 22, for the relief of Gertrude Margaret Amy Ogilvie.-Mr. Hazen.
Bill No. 23, for the relief of Myrtle Josephine Teel Odell.-Mr. Emmerson.
Bill No. 24, for the relief of Majorie Helen Parker Leduc.-Mr. Boucher.
Bill No. 25, for the relief of Margaret Derry Kirby.-Mr. Boucher.
Bill No. 26, for the relief of George Thomas Bragger.

Mr. Hill.
Bill No. 27, for the relief of Freda Watson Norman Daniels.-Mr. Emmerson.
Bill No. 28, for the relief of Iris Mabel Dash Wilkinson.-Mr. Hill.
Bill No. 29, for the relief of Joseph Ulric Edouard Bums.-Mr. Hill.
Bill No. 30, for the relief of Thomas Henry Dwyer.-Mr. Maclnnis.
Bill No. 31, for the relief of Elsie Margaret Ormandy Henderson.-Mr. Boucher.
Bill No. 32, for the relief of Arthur Charles Duffy.-Mr. Gray.
Bill No. 33, for the relief of Kathleen Edna Ellis Wainwright.-Mr. Hill.
Bill No. 34, for the relief of Diana Lenore Carsley Tenenhouse.-Mr. Gray.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gordon Graydon: I should like to ask the Minister of National War Services when he expects to be in a position to announce the appointment of the new governor to the board of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, and also when the general managership of the corporation is to be filled?

R.C.A.F.-Training Schools
Hon. L. R. LaFLECHE (Minister of National War Services):	The hon. member was
kind enough to let me have a notice of his question. In reply to the first question, I am not yet in a position to make an announcement; and in regard to the appointment of a general manager to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, I have not yet had recommendation from the board of governors. I shall be very happy to announce the appointments to my hon. friend and to this house at the earliest possible moment.


Gordon Graydon: It is six months since we had a general manager.
Mr. LaFLECHE:	May	I reply to the
second question? I simply wish to observe that of all Canadian citizens the hon. member for Peel (Mr. Graydon) should understand that appointments cannot always be made immediately. He himself is acting, and has been for a long time.



FISHING INDUSTRY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. ANGUS MacINNIS (Vancouver East):: I should like to put a question to the Minister of Fisheries. I regret I did not have time to give him notice of it. Is the minister aware that two hundred and fifty fishing vessels ordinarily engaged in ling cod fishing are tied up at the present time on the Pacific coast because of the dispute between the fishermen and the fishing companies over the price of ling cod as set by the wartime prices and trade board? Would the minister be kind enough to take this as a notice and reply on Thursday?


Hon. ERNEST BERTRAND (Minister of Fisheries):: I shall ask the hon. gentleman to put his question on the order paper.


Richard Burpee Hanson: No; it is on now.


Ernest Bertrand: There are
two or three questions in the one question.



ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. G. DIEFENBAKER (Lake Centre):: I should like to ask the Minister of National Defence for Air a question with regard1 to the announcement that was made yesterday with respect to the closing of1 certain elementary flying schools, service training schools and air observer schools. What was the basis for determining the particular schools to be closed?
Was it on the basis of administrative weaknesses, or non-flying facilities, or of there being too many accidents in the schools? I ask the question because the people in the districts are anxious to know the circumstances connected with the closing of the schools.


Thomas Vien: This is a question that
cannot be answered to-day. The minister may take note of it and answer it at the proper time.



WAR SAVINGS STAMPS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. D. C. ABBOTT (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance):: On behalf of the Minister of Finance I should like to announce the most successful result of the food industry's February war savings stamp drive. The food industry established for themselves an objective of $2,000,000. They have obtained total sales of $3,055,188, being fifty-three per cent in excess of their objective.
Never before in the history of war savings have so many stamps been sold in a single month. The success of this campaign has been a stimulant to the war savings effort. I am confident that its impetus will be an important factor in emphasizing the need for greatly increased and continuing sales of war savings stamps throughout the year. I cannot speak too highly of the efforts of the thousands of people who did so much to make this campaign a success. They have made an important contribution to our war financing.



PENSIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. D. G. ROSS (St. Paul's):: Will the Minister of Pensions and National Health endeavour to speed up the back payments which are due to old age pensioners and burned out veterans, whose pensions I think were increased last January? I have had many inquiries in this connection.
Hon. IAN A. MACKENZIE (Minister of Pensions and National Health): Of course I am only concerned directly with those in receipt of the war veterans' allowance. The old age pensioners come under the Department of Finance, but I shall be glad to direct the attention of the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Abbott) to the question.
Industrial Development Bank



INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT BANK


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Monday, March 13, consideration of the motion of the Minister of Finance for the second reading of Bill No. 7, to incorporate the Industrial Development bank.
Mr. H. R. JACKMAN (Rosedale):: Mr. Speaker, it has long been the opinion of some that there was a need in Canada for an industrial development bank or some similar institution which would advance intermediate credit to small businesses. But while there may have been a need, such an institution never got under way, and I believe this house may be interested in some of the reasons why a bank of the kind never flourished in this or any other country. While one may advocate an industrial development bank, nevertheless one should look at the proposal very critically.
In Canada there has always been plenty of money both for long term investment and for working capital, as well as for intermediate credit if that was a desirable form of credit to advance to industry. When the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Abbott) outlined the need for the proposed bank he set out, if I may say so, very sketchily the details or reasons why that bank should be incorporated at the present time, and particularly why it should come under the Bank of Canada. The main purpose he suggested was to help small industries. There was no suggestion on his part, beyond a mere expression of probabilities in the future, that investment dealers had not supplied sufficient permanent capital, or that there has been an over-centralization of commercial banking to the extent that credit was not forthcoming to small industries which might have deserved better treatment in regard to working capital. He did not say, nor does the preamble contain any suggestion, that this bill was designed primarily to create employment in the postwar period, though I suspect that this may be one of the chief reasons behind the bill, and also the reason it has received support from so many quarters in this house. Should a loss be sustained in the operation of this bank, though at the same time the bank may help create employment, it may very well be' that the loss will be counted small in view of the greater gain. Then it has been thought by some that this bill aims to prevent a depression by avoiding the under-investment of savings which, according to some theories, initiates a downward trade cycle. We find

nothing in that regard in the preamble, but it could be read into the bill, and I should kks to know from the parliamentary assistant whether or not that consideration was in the mind of the government in bringing down the measure at this time.
I have just suggested, Mr. Speaker, that there were reasons why this type of credit institution did not get going previously; because there always has been the same need though perhaps not in the same degree. We find that these institutions were considered in the Macmillan report, which dealt.also with the types of credit obtained by industries in various other countries. In Germany, for instance, we found that the banks were hand in glove with industry; that before a new company was formed the banks provided the money, stated what the capital should be, and eventually sold the securities to their depositors. In France there was also a close tie-up between the banks and industry, and there was some tie-up in the United States. In Great Britain, however, the connection between the banks and industry was not nearly as close as in the other countries I have mentioned; and the Macmillan report of 1932 recommended that there should be a closer connection, that an intermediate credit bank or an industrial development bank should be created, particularly for the purpose of increasing foreign trade.
I have always had a personal interest in these intermediate credit banks, which, as I say, never really got going. Apparently the only way they could proceed was to start in a small way, prove themselves worth while and, if they made a profit, expand and serve a greater need. But that did not come about. One small company was formed in the city of London for the purpose of supplying intermediate credit, but the experience of that company, according to the last information I had, which was before the war, was not such as would justify its expansion. It was found that if you lent $50,000 or perhaps $250,000 to a small company, you virtually had to become a partner in that industry in order to watch the loan. It was not like a commercial loan, which would come back to you within a year or so; it was an extension of credit for from five to twenty years, and you had to become almost a partner in the business in order to make sure that the money would be returned to you without loss. It has always been desirable to help the small business .man, not only from an altruistic point of view but because, in the view of business men and bankers, the small business is simply one that hopes to become large. One difficulty in connection with extending

Industrial Development Bank
intermediate credit to a small industry has been that if it issued bonds or stocks the investing public were not interested in them because there were not enough of the bonds or stocks outstanding to create a market on the exchanges or through the investment dealers, so that it was almost impossible to resell the issue after it was purchased in the first place by an investment dealer.
Are present conditions very different from the conditions which existed before the war? To-day we have a great number of new factories. Small factories have grown large; in fact it is said that the industrial capacity of this country is approximately one-third larger than it was in 1939. Existing plants engaged in the production of civilian goods will require modernization and expansion after the war. They will need to make use of some of the new techniques developed during the war, and they will require fresh capital with which to buy new machinery. Again, if we are to maintain anything like our present employment we must develop our foreign markets to the fullest extent possible; and the development of those markets, together with the extension of credit to our foreign customers, may Well mean that a bank of this kind will have to advance credits which might not be easily forthcoming from private investors or any other credit institution under the set-up that exists to-day. The preamble states that it will be the purpose of this bank to extend credit to companies which may reasonably be expected to prove successful if a high level of national income and employment is maintained, but if those conditions prevail there will be no need for the government to establish a credit institution such as that set up under this bill. Money will be forthcoming literally in an avalanche if we can promise the maintenance of anything like the national income we have to-day. Even if it is 75 per cent or 80 per cent of it, there can be no question that the public will be more than willing to provide all the money that industry requires. Certainly the $100,000,000, which is the total of assets envisaged by this bank when it begins operations, will be a mere drop in the bucket as compared with the money which will be forthcoming if the conditions laid down in the preamble of the bill are true, and are really the conditions precedent to bringing into being the operation of this bank.
Furthermore before the government embarks upon any such legislation as this we should know not only our whole post-war programme, but more particularly what our post-war taxation is going to be. At the present time no corporation pays less than forty per cent of
its earnings in taxation, even though those earnings be actually less than they earned in pre-war days. Then, should the earnings exceed the pre-war base, the average of 193639, the excess profits tax comes in and one hundred per cent of earnings above that base are taken away.
The purpose in imposing these taxes was the exact opposite of the purpose of this bill, and the exact opposite of the purpose of our post-war programme. Namely it was to throttle any expansion in civilian production. Labour was frozen, except in regard to war industries. War industries offered higher wages and took labour, away from civilian industry-and quite properly-and that is how our war production got started. But if we are to look forward to civilian production going ahead-and we hope that civilian production will be the major form of production in the post-war period-then we must remove the hand from the throat of business, and reduce taxes, so that there may be some incentive and also some compensating reward for those ventures which prove unsuccessful, because business is more often unsuccessful than it is successful.
The need for extension of credit, such as this bill envisages, however, has been aggravated by the tax policy of which I was speaking. Because of the heavy incidence of the corporation and excess profits taxes, no company has been allowed to build up its working capital position, whereby it pays for its inventory and supplies, and pays its weekly wage bill before the goods are sold. Then there have been many small companies, some of which were just starting up and did not expect to make very much money, if any, during the early days, but, as obtains in a nursery, expected a period of five or seven years' credit before they woud get any return on their capital. All those companies, realizing that they could not go through the period of the war, which might be four, five or six years, threw up the sponge and sold out to other companies which had large organizations and could maintain themselves.
So that there has been a mortality among young, new and growing companies, and this condition has been aggravated by the incidence of war taxation. Moreover, not only is there Canadian money available for industrial development after the war, but we shall have United States and British money looking for expansion in Canada. We have here the advantages of imperial preference, and a relatively bomb-proof country. I predict there will be no scarcity of venturesome money if we have fair taxation legislation in Canada.
Industrial Development Bank

If there is need for intermediate credit, plus the economic justification for it, there will be private money in bountiful supply.
Let us assume the need for this institution. What of the method? We find that our chartered banks, our commercial banks, as of January 31, 1944 had deposits amounting to $4,344,000,000-and from that sum I omit the $600,000,000 government deposits. The loans against that total of $4,344,000,000 amounted to only $1,285,000,000. In other words, there was over three times as much money in our chartered banks to be lent as business was willing to take. If we go to the banks with any reasonable kind of proposition they will welcome us with open arms. If we go to pay off a loan, one which is considered reasonably good, the banks dislike it, and would much prefer that we borrow money, because they are simply plagued with money at the present time, and this sum of $100,000,000 as against the $4,344,000,000 of deposits is so small that it is not even a drop in the ocean.
There is no likely shortage of commercial funds facing the country now, nor may I say will there be in the post-war period. Furthermore we have the action of the Bank of Canada. Truly, it may only be a gesture, but the fact is that only recently it did reduce the rediscount rate from 2J per cent to 1^ per cent. This indicates that there is plenty of money not only now but, in all likelihood, for the post-war period. Certainly that is the inference to be drawn from the bank's action. And it can be done; that is, the commercial banks can rediscount at the rate of li per cent, making available to business more credit. Yet the government comes to us and says there is a need for this industrial development bank because there may be a shortage of adequate funds in the post-war period.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Would the hon. member suggest that the banking system should lend money for ten years at li per cent?


Harry Rutherford Jackman: I suggest that the commercial banking system should not lend money for ten years, and I also suggest that the industrial development bank should not lend money for ten years either. As I will show later in my remarks, there may be another set-up much more desirable than the one proposed in the bill.


Mr. RALSTON:: Is that the hon. member's opinion? Is that just my hon. friend's personal view?


Richard Burpee Hanson: Let him go on with his speech. We are not butting in with you.


James Layton Ralston: Is that the view of my hon. friend?


Richard Burpee Hanson: There
is no cross-examination here.


James Layton Ralston: Is that the view of the Progressive Conservative party?


Gordon Graydon: Keep politics out of this business.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Don't be so fresh.


Gordon Graydon: Don't try to talk politics now. Let us have a holiday once in a while.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: It is easier for the commercial banks to advance the type of credit to which the parliamentary assistant had reference a moment ago.
In regard to longer term credit, much, while advanced by investment dealers, is collected in small rivulets and handed over to industry in large amounts, so that it may be economically useful. There is no shortage of money on that score and no shortage of machinery. In fact, investment dealers to-day are largely engaged in making the victory loans a success. And after that job is finished they will be only too delighted to get back into industrial banking, which is their ordinary business. If anything, the investment dealers' business is an industrial business. There is to-day a plentiful supply of money, and any sound business will find that it has offered to it all the money it can possibly use.
At page 1059 of Hansard the parliamentary assistant is reported to have said:
But industry's own resources may be far short of the total amount of financing required. It is therefore in the national interest to ensure that such additional financing as may be necessary and desirable will be available to industrial enterprises.
He could not go farther than to say "may". I should like to know where the demand for this bank has sprung from. Is it a government measure Is it a brain child of the Bank of Canada, or where has the demand come from? If it is part of the over-all post-war plan, then let us see the post-war plan so that we can fit this piece into the whole scheme and realize just what significance it has and what part it is going to play. Moreover, if it is to be of any importance at all, the $100,000,000 of assets it is to be allowed to have will be so small that it will be of no consequence. It will be largely experimental. If the government believes in this type of business, and believes that it is sound, then it should provide an adequate amount. I should like to know whether the government has looked into the question whether a guarantee of credit under the existing lending institutions would not be sufficient without setting up another bank with all the overhead and cost that goes with it.

Industrial Development Bank
What does the bill suggest? Simply that industries which may reasonably be expected to prove successful if a high level of national income and employment is maintained will be granted credit. Such a condition would be nothing short of an investor's paradise. There will be no risk involved if we can maintain the national income at a high and fairly steady level. Therefore, if the government can do what it presupposes in the preamble it can do, there is no need which will not be satisfied by private enterprise. But, assuming that there will be a need in the future, is this bank to be anything more than a bank of last resort?
May I say to the parliamentary assistant and to the government that if the bank is to advance credit only where credit is not forthcoming through ordinary channels, it will suffer a great many political headaches. For every small business that will be granted a loan there will be at least a dozen, if not a score, that will have to be turned down. All I can say to my hon. friends on the government benches is that they are aiming straight for a severe headache. It must be well known that of a hundred new businesses that start up, very few succeed, and a much smaller number become real successes. The types of business which will seek aid under this bill will be those which are either too small or too young or too risky for financing by public issue. If this bank is to be a bank of last resort it is likely to become a sink-hole for the taxpayers' money.
The parliamentary assistant has suggested that it is not going to supplant, it is merely going to supplement private banking through commercial banks or investment dealers; they are going to go on as before and this bank is merely to supplement their work. I cannot for the life of me see how it will supplement without supplanting. That is what will happen, and if it does, it may prove detrimental to the whole Canadian economy.
It has not been stated what rate of interest will be charged by the proposed bank on the advances it makes. Let us assume that the rate will be five per cent. This may seem a reasonable rate, but it is unlikely that the private banks could advance money on that basis. I believe it would be an unsound basis. From time to time there will be losses in connection with the advances made to these small companies; in fact I should think that the losses would bulk largely in the total. If you are to have losses, you must make them up on other loans which are successful; otherwise you will have a net loss and the bank will lose its capital. If that happens, not only this bank but the Bank of Canada will be placed in an embarrassing position. If this bank proposes to lend money at cheap rates, or what 100-93
looks like a cheap rate of five per cent, it will be impossible for the ordinary suppliers of money to continue in business. They cannot compete on any such basis. As I say, we have had no indication whatsoever from the government as to what rates are to be charged.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I said reasonable rates.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: "Reasonable" means many things. I suggested five per cent, but that may be anything but reasonable. Unless there are windfalls in this type of business you will not be able to offset your other loans. I cannot for a moment see the government collecting windfalls on advances to private industry. That would be regarded as unconscionable. They do not own the business, and the risks increase every time they embark on a new venture.
A word as to the type of credit which this bank will advance. Ordinarily intermediate credits are for from two to five years in length, or perhaps even longer. Is it the intention of the government to take hold of some of these small companies, advance money to the proprietors, nurse them along for a number of years, and then distribute the securities? I do not know, but this would open up a tremendous field. The government would be going into private business to compete with those who are already supporting the government through the payment of private taxes.
Is the government to become a speculator in industrial enterprises? The proposed bank could not disclose the true facts with regard to its loans and sell them to the public, because that practice just would not hold water. It is said that the purpose of this bill is not to supplant the functions of the investment dealers, it is to supplement; but if an investment dealer attempted to sell an issue, such as this bank contemplates taking, without full disclosure being made to the investing public, the government would prosecute. I suggest that there is no difference between the care which should be taken with regard to the public's money and the care which should be taken with regard to a private individual's money. If capital issues owned by the Bank of Canada or by this industrial development bank are sold to the public and then go bad- such things are contemplated under the bill- there are bound to be distasteful repercussions. Unscrupulous people will say that the government is behind the issue. We know that with the turn of conditions some of these ventures are bound to prove unsuccessful and the government will be faced with the opprobrium attached to such an outcome.
Under this proposed industrial development bank, unworthy credit risks will be assumed if the bank is to supplement and not supplant. The



Industrial Development Bank
credit system as we know it in this country and as it is in all industrial countries is based on the human equation as much as on the material; it is based on character more than on assets. Judgment is formed only after long experience, and I suggest that there is no one in the Bank of Canada who by training is likely to be able to exercise that function successfully. The bank is likely to be successful only through using and perhaps abusing the government's power of borrowing at low rates of interest and relending the money and supplanting rather than supplementing the ordinary banking channels, particularly investment banking channels.
If the purpose of the bank is not to keep its capital intact, if it is willing to lose money for the Canadian taxpayer because the benefit of job creation may be worth the candle, then the government should be frank and say that that is the intention and design of this bill. May I ask how a loan advanced under this proposed legislation can be repaid as long as we have our present tax laws? Every dollar which is earned will be subjected to a minimum of forty per cent taxation. A company may earn five per cent on its capital, or even seven or eight per cent at the outside, but that will be subjected to a forty per cent tax. How will it be possible under present tax legislation to repay a loan? I suggest to the parliamentary assistant that it would be much better if some information were given to us as to what we can expect in the way of tax legislation in the post-war period before we look into such a matter as this industrial development bank.
Is the real object of this bill to create employment even if that employment is not economically productive? Or is the desirable objective of full employment to be aided by other measures divorced from this particular institution? It is well to know what we are doing, and the effect on competitive businesses struggling on their own must not be lost sight of. ^ Where is the Bank of Canada to find the trained personnel which it will lend to the industrial development bank? I understand from the bill that there is to be an executive committee composed of directors who are members of the executive committee of the Bank of Canada. The two could not be more closely tied in than is the design under the present bill. The executive committee may deal with anything that the bank may deal with. It is purely a Bank of Canada show, with no independence and no original thought outside the central banking circle, and yet the type of business which it is to do and the function which it is to perform are entirely different from those carried on not only by 
the central bank but by a commercial bank. Even the staff is to be provided from the Bank of Canada or is to come under their joint arrangements. There will be the same secrecy as to salaries, I suppose; yet we have the companies act requiring disclosure of executive salaries, and everyone knows what civil servants and many other people receive. There is nothing wrong about that. I see no reason why the salaries of the Bank of Canada and of this proposed bank should not be made public.
Then this bill contemplates establishing branches, which can lead to the invasion of all banking fields except the taking of deposits. This proposed bank may spread across the country, with great overhead cost, and there may be no limit to the encroachments which it may make upon the business of ordinary tax-paying citizens.
There is another point which I wish briefly to mention. The capital of the bank is $25,000,000, and yet this amount will be forthcoming from the Bank of Canada, whose capital is only $5,000,000. The bank made $15,000,000 last year, but it would seem that the Bank of Canada is giving birth to a pretty big baby when it is going to embark on a subsidiary bank which has a capital five times the amount of its own.
The business and powers of the bank are to provide credit or other financial resources which would not otherwise be available on reasonable terms and conditions. Just who is to define "reasonable" is a matter of some interest, and I should like to have some elucidation from the parliamentary assistant. If my surmise is correct, anything this bank does will be either outside its powers, or it will be a sink-hole for the taxpayers' money, because the preamble states that it will advance money only to companies which may reasonably be expected to succeed if a high level of national income and employment is maintained. In this event there will be so much money available that this bank could not possibly lend a single dollar unless it supplants rather than supplements the present banking institutions. Then, it may lend, guarantee, underwrite or purchase stocks with a view to resale, but there is no limiting factor on when the stocks are to be resold. The bank may get into business in competition with the taxpayer and remain in business apparently indefinitely. There should be a strict limitation.
Furthermore, it fails in its purpose because it does not put emphasis upon permanent or semi-permanent capital rather than putting the entire emphasis on debt. There should be

Industrial Development Bank
power in a bank such as this to purchase prefered or common stock issues rather than to have as its main purpose the lending of money. Companies which want money for five years or twenty years for permanent capital do not want to have to repay or will not be able to repay it in a short time, particularly under a system of heavy taxation, and the money becomes part of the proprietary interest. This bank should be in a position, if it is to do a real job, to subscribe to.the stock of the companies. I believe the parliamentary assistant is going to ask me whether I am in favour of this bank and of government ownership.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Not at all. I was just going to point out to my hon. friend that if he will look at the bill he will see that the bank has power to do just what he has suggested.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: In the bill there is power to do nearly anything. As I have suggested, it can establish branches in every hamlet iD Canada. But in looking through the multitudinous sections-


Douglas Charles Abbott: Look at section 15.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: -I observe that the main purpose of it is to deal with borrowing. That only strengthens my argument that this bank is to become the proprietor, the actual owner, not a mere banker for industrial companies, and it makes it all the more a competitor with the taxpayers of the country-a situation which, unless you are going to be a national socialist, I think you would do well to keep out of.


Mr. SLAGHT:: Does the hon. member find from his analysis of the bill that the bank will be able to finance mining companies?


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Does the hon. member ask me if I think this bank is to finance mining companies?


Arthur Graeme Slaght: Whether the power is there.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: I have not examined that. It is the parliamentary assistant's bill; it is not mine.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I shall be glad to deal with that when I close the debate.


Mr. ADAMSON:: What did the parliamentary assistant say?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I said I shall be glad to deal with that when I close the debate. I have a note of that point. Other hon. members have raised it.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: I should just like to point out the effect of government engaging in competitive businesses. We have examples of it, somewhat more in the provincial fields than we have in the federal field. But, once any part of the crown, whether it be in the dominion right or the provincial right, engages in business, we know it is not taxable, and therefore private companies which otherwise could compete and render equal service with it cannot compete, because one company cannot have forty per cent of its profits taxed away and the other company, which happens to be publicly owned, have no part of its profits taxed away and bear no share of other public burdens. That is a quite impossible position. I wonder what the situation is to be with the government wholly owning now the central bank and, by two stages removed, the industrial development bank-whether or not these companies will be required to pay taxes.
Furthermore, this is a banking institution, and if it gets going and does make profits they will not be taxed, I suppose, any more than the Bank of Canada is taxed; yet they are in direct competition with commercial banks, all of which pay a minimum of forty per cent corporation tax. So that you get into a field where the ordinary taxpayer endeavours to make a living, and one scarcely knows where one is at.
There are several other sections with regard to the powers of the Bank of Canada to which I will refer briefly. The Bank of Canada under its own charter has power to buy -and sell or rediscount bonds and debentures issued by the bank-that is, this bank-provided that the amount of bonds and debentures Maturing after ten years may not exceed twice the paid-up capital and rest fund of the Bank of Canada, that is, $13,000,000. It may not be enough to be important, but if the securities which the bank purchases prove to be worthless, then it is enough to wipe out the whole capital and surplus of the Bank of Canada. I suggest if this industrial development bank is merely to supplement and not supplant, is merely to get loans which nobody else will look at, there is a good chance of the loans going bad and the Bank of Canada being affected.
The Bank of Canada has three instruments of control: first, the discount rate; second, open market operations; third, foreign exchange operations. These instruments are designed to serve the purpose of a central bank. For its own safety the bank's authority to deal in securities is restricted. There is no limit to the short-term securities which the Bank
Industrial Development Bank

of Canada may hold. Long-term government bonds, however, are strictly limited to five times the amount of capital and reserve of that bank. Under this bill the Bank of Canada endeavours to make possible what is not possible under its own act of incorporation. In particular, the underwriting permitted under this bill greatly enlarges the amount of longterm securities as to which the Bank of Canada may have a contingent liability.
Furthermore, the Bank of Canada does not deal directly with the public. The proposed industrial development bank will deal with the public, which is an important defect from the point of view of the major purpose of the central bank. Through the tie-in with the industrial development bank, the Bank of Canada no longer remains a bankers' bank and will come in direct competition with banks whose own funds are invested with the Bank of Canada, and these funds will be invested in securities which the chartered banks could not themselves hold.
While the machinery of an industrial development bank as designed might be workable and safe in certain hands, one must always recognize the fact that the set-up must be safe as far as the public is concerned, even if in less satisfactory hands than those which now control the operations of the Bank of Canada.
What was the opinion of the British Macmillan commission in regard to central banks operating an intermediate credit bank such as is proposed in this Bill No. 7? In their report of 1932 we find the following:
The best course might be if the leading private institutions and the big banks were to cooperate in creating one or more such concerns. We understand that the creation of the Bankers' Industrial Development Company was due originally to the belief that help in these directions might be given to industry by the city-
That is, the financial end of London.
-which was not being given. We have been told .however, that the authorities of the Bank of England consider, as we do, that these are not proper permanent functions for a subsidiary of a central bank. It would seem desirable,' therefore, that the Bankers' Industrial Development Company should at a convenient stage be definitely separated from the Bank of England, have an independent existence, and rely upon its profit-making capacity as a private institution. It is possible that it might form a nucleus for that closer cooperation between finance and industry which we think is required.
Again, in one of the authoritative textbooks, Kisch and Elkin on Central Banks at page 146, I find the following:
The business proper for a reserve or central bank to undertake must be hedged round by conditions which will make for the maximum of safety and promote the maximum of liquidity in its assets.

And yet we find that this bank is to become literally part and parcel of the Bank of Canada.
In addition, therefore, to prescribing the permissible business in unambiguous terms, there are advantages in barring explicitly certain kinds of business inconsistent with the primary requirements already discussed. This makes for security and relieves the bank from possible risk of pressure to stretch its powers in a sense that might be inimical to its stability and responsibilities as a reserve bank. Thus we find that the acceptance of an interest in a commercial undertaking is barred by the constitution of the banks in a number of cases. . . .


Thomas Vien: The hon. member's time has expired.


Mr. J. S. ROY (Gaspe):: I have listened with much interest to all the speeches delivered by hon. members who have taken part in this debate regarding the incorporation of the industrial development bank, and I have noticed that most hon. members who have spoken, if not all, have criticized the bill to a certain extent, and on certain points, seeming, especially, to be dissatisfied with what is lacking in this bill.
There are many reasons why one should be dissatisfied with this bill. If I rightly understand it, the purpose of this bill, like others that have been submitted before, is to prevent in the post-war period a recurrence of such conditions as those we have suffered from in the period before the war. It seems to me, however, that the bill does not touch the sore.
In the first place this bill does not provide anything for agriculture; it does not even include that industry. We are told that a measure dealing with the needs of agriculture is about to come. It has always been the fate of agriculture to be the object of many promises and encouragements that were always to come but which never came. In my humble opinion the deficiencies that exist in the farming industry explain to a certain extent the reasons why we have had so much unemployment and why conditions throughout the country are so badly adjusted.
To substantiate that statement, I should like to submit some figures taken from the Canada Year Book and from other publications of the government, such as "The cost of Living Index Numbers for Canada", published by the dominion bureau of statistics in 1943. This is an index of average annual earnings of all wage earners in manufacturing industries, showing constant purchasing power from 1926 to 1939 inclusive. Taking the year 1926 as the base year, and 100 as the base figure, we find

Industrial Development Bank
that the earnings of the	various workers
have mentioned, have risen	as follows:
1927			 103-1
1998 				 105-1
199 Q 			 106-2
1989 				 102-2
1981 			 105-1
1989 			 103-1
19,88 			 99-5
1984. 			 104-7
1985 			 108-6
		 109-7
	
		 112-4
1939	 111-0	
I have not the figures up to 1943, but I am under the impression that the earnings have gone up considerably from 1939 to 1943. We can see that from 1926 the earnings of that class of people have gone up from 100 to 111.
Now the index of the average annual earnings of all employees of Canadian steam railways in money of constant purchasing power 1926 = 100:
1999 			 100-0
IQ97 			 104-0
1998 			 106-8
] 99Q 			 106-9
1980 			 107-2
] 981 			 114-2
19.89 			 115-4
1988 			 114-6
19,84. 			 111-9
1935 			 117-8
		 117-1
		 120-0
		 125-3
1939	 128-1	
I shall now give the average annual earnings of all dominion civil servants, temporary as well as permanent. The figures are taken from the same source, which shows the earnings in money of constant purchasing power from 1926 to 1939 inclusive. The year 1926 is given as the base year and is placed at 100. The
figures for the years 1927 to 1939	are as
follows:	
1997 		105-1
1928 		105-4
1929 		104-7
1980 		106-8
1931 		121-3
] 9,89. 		119-7
1933 		126-1
] 9,84 		122-7
1935 		129-3
1936 		124-8
1987 		125-5
	123-9
	125-9
This table shows that there was an	increase
in so far as that class of workers	are concerned. I shall now give a table for the agricultural workers in the same years, using the year 1926 as the base year at 100. The table is headed "Income of1 farm operators in cash and in kind, including the rental value of their houses, as a percentage of the national income of each year, and on the base 1926=
100."	
1990 			 100-0
1927 			 95-9
1928			 112-6
And here it begins to go down:
1929			 94-9
1930 			 54-8
1931			 30-6
1982		 19-8
1933		 23-09
' 1934 .		 36-0
1935 				 39-09
1936 			 53-06
1937 			 58-0
1938 			 57-9
1939			 69-4
In spite of their sadness these figures eloquently prove that agriculture is the industry which has suffered the worst of all. I believe it also explains why a large number of people from the rural districts have gone into the industrial cities where they have swelled the number of unemployed.
If we consult the book "Canada 1944, the official handbook of present conditions and recent progress," we shall see that the census of 1931 shows that the population of the rural districts amounted to 4,804,728, and of the urban sections, 5,572,058. There is a difference in these figures of 767,330. That is quite a difference in the population of these two sections, and that difference has increased since 1931. In 1941 the rural population amounted to 5,254,239, while the urban population was 6,252,416. There is a difference there of 998,177. The last figure I have given shows that the disparity between the rural population and the urban population is increasing. These figures explain to a large extent why we have had such a grave unemployment problem in the past, and why we seem to have lost control of ttys situation.
If a measure such as the one now before the house is supposed to cure the sore and prevent the crisis like the one we have had in the past, I cannot understand why we did not deal with the matter earlier. I believe if we could solve the problem of the disparity between the populations of the rural districts and the urban districts, many of our difficulties would be overcome. If that problem were solved I am sure it would help to solve very easily our other difficulties. One of the best ways to overcome them would be to adopt a
Industrial Development Bank

housing policy to remove the slum hovels in all the cities ;and this would help to prevent unemployment. It would help also to a certain extent to diminish juvenile delinquency. It would improve health conditions.
I should like to say a few words about the matter of public health before dealing with slum hovels. We have been told that a measure dealing with public health will be brought before the house very shortly.


Thomas Vien: Order. The subject under discussion is the second reading of a bill to establish an industrial development bank. It has nothing to do with public health. The hon. member must confine his remarks to the provisions of the bill.


Joseph Sasseville Roy: I may be wrong. I shall try to follow Your Honour's ruling; but I must remind Your Honour that quite a few hon. members have spoken about public health in this debate. I thought I was within the rules in doing the same thing.


Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: You were dealing with health as related to the need for housing.


Joseph Sasseville Roy: In my opinion the need for housing should be included in this bill.


Douglas Charles Abbott: If my hon. friend will permit me, he may recall that in my opening remarks I stated that the government would be proposing measures at this session to provide similar credit facilities in connection with agriculture and housing.


Joseph Sasseville Roy: That is what I say; those measures are to come, but they are not here yet, and housing is the thing we should look after first of all, because it would, more easily and surely than anything else, take care of post-war conditions. Should this bill provide the financing of a housing scheme which would do away with our slums-hovels it would be a wonderful thing. If, let us say, $100,000,000 could be advanced for that purpose, which amount could be recovered later on, it would enable about twenty thousand families to possess their own homes, figuring the cost of each house at $5,000. That would constitute the strongest possible fortification against the trend of revolt that we hear roaring among the population. That would be the best asset Canada could have, and it would not take very much to give those families their own homes.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Again I rise to a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I do not think we can discuss the housing problem on this bill.


Thomas Vien: The parliamentary assistant to the minister has made the statement on his 
responsibility that measures will be brought before the house in connection with agriculture and housing. Therefore the hon. member is anticipating something that will happen in the future, when his remarks will be relevant. At the moment the bill before the house deals only with the setting up of an industrial development bank, and the debate must be confined to that.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, last Friday the hon. member for Moose Jaw (Mr. Ross) devoted his entire speech to a discussion of agriculture.


Thomas Vien: The point of order has been taken now and I have ruled on it. I am stating the situation that exists at present; we have before us a bill dealing with an industrial development bank, and the discussion must be confined to that.
Mr.' DOUGLAS (Weyburn): The scope of the debate seems to vary, depending on which side of the house it comes from.


Thomas Vien: The hon. member may not criticize my ruling, which is that this debate must be confined to the provisions of the bill now before us.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: It is a great pity that Your Honour was not in the chair on Friday night.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: On the point of order-


Thomas Vien: I cannot permit hon. members to question my ruling. It can be appealed if necessary, but the ruling has been given and the hon. member must comply with it.


Mr. REID:: I am glad Your Honour is
being fair, because last night you stopped another hon. member-


Thomas Vien: Such remarks should not be made. The hon. member knows my ruling, and that he must confine his remarks to the bill now under consideration.


Joseph Sasseville Roy: Thank you, Mr. Speaker; I am perfectly willing to accept your ruling, and I thank you for giving me a directive in this connection.
My contention was that the provisions of the bill are not complete, and I was trying to indicate what else should be included in the bill to make it more acceptable. According to the bill its objects are to finance the development of small industries, to see that the bad conditions from which we suffered previous to the war do not return, to prevent unemployment and so on. All these measures are brought before us with the promise that when the war

Industrial Development Bank
is over the old conditions will not return, but they do not go far enough. We are to have health insurance, but that is not going to cure the cause of the evil; it will not touch the source of the trouble. My contention is that .if we do not get at the cause of the trouble, that if all our legislation misses the mark as this measure seems to miss it, we will not have any better results when the war is over than we had from 1930 to 1939, during which time both old political parties were in power and both promised to bring in all sorts of measures which would put a stop to unemployment. They could not succeed, and the people became disgusted and discouraged. Finally the war put an end to it. That was a very poor way of settling a question of that kind. I wonder if such bad conditions will not come back again unless the government takes steps now, unless it gives the people right measures in which they can believe and upon which they can rely?
Coming back to the principle of the measure, as the parliamentary assistant would like me to do, I say this bill should tell us explicitly how it will work against the evil we are seeking to cure; how it will prevent trusts, monopolies and cartels from carrying on their practices, which, according to a statement made a few days ago by Mr. Harold Ickes, Secretary of the Interior of the United, States, were the cause of the present war. We should be told how this bill will prevent further abuses by these monopolies, how it will protect small industries and free enterprise. Though it is a very important point there is no mention of it in the bill. The bank may use this money to favour the big trusts; it may work in the interests of the electrical trust or the packing trust, to mention only those which have been referred to in the course of this debate. We have no guarantee of any kind that it will protect us against the real evil, the trusts and cartels; that it will help only the small industries ; that it will develop family industries, and bring back prosperity to the rural districts; that it will do away with the surplus population we have in our cities, which has become such a heavy burden to the state and a cause of anxiety and fear for the future.
That is why I am criticizing the bill. That is why I am trying to point out some matters which I think should be included in the bill, and which I believe would improve it. In my opinion most hon. members favour the principle of a measure of this kind, but I for one should' like to be assured that this new bank will not come under the control of high finance. I would be ready to support a measure that would be really fit to correct the evils from which we are suffering; because in
the post-war period we want to be protected against a return of the bad conditions that existed before the war. That is why, Mr. Speaker, unless this bill is redrafted, and its provisions are set out more clearly, I am afraid that all the work we are doing at the present time will remain but fruitless.


Mr. R. W. MAYHEW (Victoria, B.C.):: Mr. Speaker, I admit that one might almost apologize for speaking this afternoon, in view of the fact that much time has already been spent in the debate and there has been much repetition. However I rise as one who has had some personal experience in respect of loans of the kind here indicated, and therefore I shall speak not so much with respect to the bill itself as to my belief concerning the government's intention.
I cannot become enthusiastic about the bill, but I can offer all the support I am capable of giving to the principle behind it, namely that of giving financial aid to small industry, and particularly that part of small industry which is engaged in the pioneering field. I would support, too, the provisions of the bill which would give encouragement and financial assistance to the young men who will return from overseas.
Let me say just a word about what I mean when I refer to pioneering in industry. To-day we are entering a period when we will hear much about plastics. Who is to do the pioneering if it is not done under some such scheme as we have before us? We are also entering a period when the use of light metals is increasing. Are these two commodities to be taken away from the young men who have ideas and the desire to develop them, but who, if they wish to see their ideas developed, must sell them to the larger corporations or to people with money? I believe that, as the bill proposes, we should give the necessary assistance to young men.
If the money is made available it will give assistance in the development of our natural resources. What is our great natural resource to-day? What is the one in which we are mostly interested, and the one which must be developed if we are to develop Canada? I have in mind a natural resource to which reference has not thus far been made. It is not our forests; it is not our mines; it is not our fisheries. It is opportunity. I have in mind the young man who will come back from overseas and who will have the right to a chance for personal development and personal expression. The young man who is honest, who is industrious and healthy, and who has an idea, is the type of resource we cannot afford to ignore. If there is a pool of money from which men of that type can
Industrial Development Bank

get some assistance, then I say that in making such money available we are doing something worth while. Nothing has thus far been presented at this session which gives me greater encouragement than that which I derive from this bill, although I do not agree entirely with the manner of procedure. I do not believe that under this measure the money can be properly distributed, or that it can be properly handled through a bank.
Let us, for instance, consider the young man who is going into business. What does he want? What will be of the greatest help to him? In what I shall say I am speaking from experience. The thing he wants first of all is to be surrounded by three or four responsible, experienced, reliable elderly men who can give him advice and assistance, men who have been through the mill and who know how to solve problems. Yes, if he is honest he will submit his quarterly statements to his bank. He will submit his annual statements and will tell more than appears in those statements. He will set before his banker the problems he must face. But is he to ask his banker how those problems are to be solved? No, he is not, because a banker's first obligation is to the security of the loan he has made available. In my opinion that young man will consult his friends who have had experience and who have carried responsibilities.
If these young men-and the same would apply to older men-must come to Ottawa and seek only banking experience as a directive in the conduct of their business, this scheme will fall short of its objective.
There is something further we must remember in connection with the bill. I have reference to the supplying of the money. If we look upon this organization as one which must prove financially successful, in my view we are not going to acomplish the utmost good for the Canadian people. We must take the long-term view. I do not believe the cushion of twenty-five per cent for which the measure provides is sufficiently great, because we must remember that the operations involved will be highly speculative. I do not believe that only twenty-five per cent of the loans granted under this measure will fail. If twenty-five per cent of these ventures are successful, then the over-all picture in Canada might quite easily be a success.
I may be pardoned at this point if I tell the house of my own experience. I know there will be hon. members in the chamber who will appreciate what I am about to say. In 1919, at the close of the last war, the British Columbia government set aside a million
[Mr. Mayhffw.l	;
dollars for just such a purpose as the one we are now discussing. I was manager of a plant then struggling for existence. Our difficulties were in the securing of certain raw material. Upon placing certain facts before the British Columbia committee I secured a loan of $100,000, which we were fortunate enough to pay back. One or two others were equally fortunate, but certainly fifty per cent did not make good. I believe those who succeeded would have numbered about twenty-five per cent, probably less than that. But in my opinion the British Columbia government's plan of assisting industry was successful. The over-all picture will be a success if we get away from the banking idea and think more of assisting industries that need assistance, and it will prove a failure if we encourage industries that are already over-producing. There are many fields of endeavour-I have indicated some of these-in which assistance will be required for some time in order that the usefulness of the product may be demonstrated. It may be ten, fifteeen or even twenty years before the usefulness of a certain product can be demonstrated to the country.
Some of us are connected with the construction industry, and there is nothing more conservative than that industry. Why? When you are building a house you do not want your architect or contractor to experiment. You are going to live in that house for a lifetime, and you want to stick to the things you know about, bricks, mortar and stone. There are materials being developed which might be used by the construction industry, but the success of those materials cannot be demonstrated in a year or two. What more legitimate use could be made of this bank than to encourage things like that in this country? I am enthusiastic about credit being available to be directed in a sane and sensible way, but this cannot be done without some speculation and risk. We should not look at these things from the standards of to-day or to-morrow or a year hence, but rather on the basis of the broad picture spread over perhaps a quarter of a century.
If you expect this bank to be a success by doing what the bankers would have to do, then you are doomed to disappointment. Those who think that this is going to prove to be a boom politically will find themselves mistaken. There will always be small men on both sides of the house who will want to play politics, who will take only the narrow view. I am sure that if the narrow view had been taken in British Columbia the venture would have been considered a failure. But it has not been a

Industrial Development Bank
failure because the twenty or twenty-five per cent that were successful more than offset the unsuccessful ones.
There is another way of operating which might prove successful. This bank could purchase the stock, either preferred or common, of the companies which it is promoting. But I would not like to see such a plan in effect. I do not believe in the government going into business. I am going to say something which I have never seen in print or which I have never heard expressed in just this way. The government seems to be getting away from the duties which it was intended to discharge. In my opinion the government is a referee for the people in the game of life. In carrying on that referee-ship they must defend us against attack by our enemies, they must furnish us with education and they must see that we have sound bodies; but they expect us to play the game of life according to the rules laid down by this parliament and put into effect by the government. It is for that reason that I would not like to see this bill go into effect in its present form. I have never seen a referee in any game take part in the game himself, and I do not want to see this government-which should be the referee to prevent us from fouling the others in the game, and to see that we all play fair and have a chance-take part in the actual game.
Much has been said upon this matter and there is much more I should like to say, but I know hon. members are weary of listening to this debate and I shall conclude.


Thomas Reid: Mr. Speaker, at this late stage of the debate it is not my intention to delay the bill very long, but there are one or two things which prompt me to rise and say what I am about to say. I am not a member of the committee which will go into the details of this bill and so have one or two suggestions I wish to make before the bill goes to the committee, in the hope that some consideration will be given to them.
From a cursory reading of the bill it would seem to me that it is to be a case of first come, first served. There is no limitation on the amount of the loan -which a firm will be able to obtain, and I can visualize demands being made upon the bank for loans when there is no provision for curtailing the amount of the loans, with the result that the $100,000,000 referred to in the bill will soon run out. It is perfectly true that the government has power to increase the amount available for loans, but it can do so only after parliament has given its authority. I suggest to the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance and to the committee that some thought be given to
holding down the amount of a loan which any company may secure. If the bill is designed to encourage small industry it may well be that some of the larger ones will take the lion's share of the $100,000,000.
A great deal has been said by hon. members from the eastern and western provinces about the lack of industry in their provinces. This may not be the time to go fully into the question of the centralization of industry, but I cannot be unmindful of the fact that if proper direction is not given by the bill it may well be that those in charge of granting loans may act strictly from the business point of view and consider only the ability of the borrower to pay back. They could thus prevent development which should properly take place in certain provinces.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: Would the hon. member favour financing the mining industry?


Thomas Reid: I would favour financing anything that would be for the welfare of Canada. I trust that answer will satisfy the hon. member, at least for a little while. What I had in mind when the interruption occurred was the possibility of a group of men, say in British Columbia, starting a steel industry to take care of the surplus scrap metal in that province. I can visualize them coming to the bank for a loan. If the demand for a loan is looked at from a strictly business point of view, I have little hope of their chances of obtaining that loan, because it might be pointed out that there are already steel industries in the east, and in the province of Ontario, and that it would be unfair to grant a loan with government assistance to compete with private industry. So that if some direction is not put into the bill in some form or another, I fear that the men who will have charge of the granting of loans and who-I say this without fear of successful contradiction-up to this point have been "centrally minded", may very well frown upon loans for the development of industries either in the eastern mari-times or in British Columbia. It must be recognized that at the moment Canada is fairly well industrialized and at the cessation of hostilities we shall have factories and machinery adequate to supply more than this country's needs. British Columbia, by the way, has developed industrially despite the opposition and competition of the two great provinces of Ontario and Quebec, but it is faced with the condition that it must perforce sell most of the goods manufactured there on the world's open markets to help pay for the goods which we in British Columbia up to now have had to buy from the protected eastern provinces. We in British Columbia are
Industrial Development Bank

desirous of going ahead and getting help to develop our industry so that it will be complementary to our agriculture. There is to-day, I fear, little to encourage men to go on land in British Columbia unless such settlement is backed with the developing of war industries to provide a market, and payrolls for the consumption of surplus agricultural goods. I do not know just how it may be put into the bill, but personally I should like to see some direction inserted to guide the men who will be handling these loans, because if some such direction or control is not put in there, and the matter is looked at from a strictly business point of view, there is very little hope or prospect of further development by way of assistance under this measure to small industrial concerns in either British Columbia or the eastern maritimes.
Having given expression to these two thoughts, I would ask that they receive some consideration from the committee. I realize, as everybody does, that the principle of the bill has a great deal of merit. At the same time, if it is designed, as it should be, to take care of all the industrial requirements of Canada, every section of Canada should then be placed upon an equal footing when applications for loans are made.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I had not intended to speak on this bill, but I have listened with great interest to some of tne things which have been said in the course of the discussion.
I intend to support the principle of the bill as it is outlined in the preamble, although I do not quite understand why the chartered banks could not have been used in some such way as the central mortgage bank uses the insurance companies and the loan companies in connection with its business. Insurance and loan companies were forced to do business with the central mortgage bank, but they were guaranteed against loss. I have some doubt on this question of the Bank of Canada entering into an industrial banking business and setting up a staff all through the country when we have available the staffs of the various chartered banks from one end of Canada to the other. One of the main factors involved in this business will be the integrity, the ability and the knowledge of local conditions of the men who will be required to administer the project, and I do not know who is in a better position to understand local conditions than the branch managers in each community.
Some measure of this kind is, I think, necessary, because our young men coming home from overseas will be full of ambition to

engage in business of some sort. As the hon. member for Victoria, British Columbia (Mr. Mayhew) remarked a little while ago, if the bank is to serve its purpose it will probably lose a certain amount of money. It will be useful also to large business where the risk will not be too great but where it may be difficult to do financing otherwise. The only specific purposes for which the bank is to be used which have so far been mentioned by the parliamentary assistant are in connection with a rolling mill and shipbuilding out at the coast somewhere, to which he referred in reply to the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green). He did not say much about small businesses.
I should like to point out that the socialist party, or the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation, do not really agree with the principle of this bill. They cannot agree with it, oecause its purpose is to assist and promote private enterprise and initiative. It is to make it possible for the borrower, not only to produce and employ but also to make a profit, to build a small business into a big one. The C.C.F. spokesmen have tried to skate around the main principle of the bill. Each one has said that he supports the principle, but he really does not support it. Those who represent this party have tried to avoid the issue by such words as those of the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles), who informed the house that he supported the principle of the bill because, he added, as reported in Hansard, at page 1413:
.	.	. there should be established a public
authority under the control of the parliament of Canada with power to give effect to the necessary financial arrangements to make possible the kinds of industrial activity parliament regards as being socially desirable.
Well, it is not for parliament to decide what this bank is going to do; it is for the bank to decide.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Up to a point.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: The point is that it is for the bank to decide what is to happen, and I think it would be a sad day if the socialists ever got into power in this country and parliament were to decide what was to happen in connection with this bank.
The main principle of the bill is, of course, outlined in the preamble. The whole idea of the socialists is that there should be no capital and no profits, but the very idea of this bill is to let the people of this country-the small man and the big one-have capital, increase their capital, and make profit and create em-

Industrial Development Bank
ployment through their production. But the point is that the C.C.F. cannot afford to oppose the principle of this bill because there are too many small businesses in this country, too many people who do not believe in socialism and who would turn away from them if they did not support the principle of the bill.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Do you support the bill?


Douglas Gooderham Ross: You are supporting it.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Do you support it?


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I am supporting
it, certainly. So are you.


Thomas Vien: Order. .


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I just wished to
point out how far one can depend upon the policy of the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation party. It is one way one time and another way the other, depending upon what they are looking at.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Your spokesman said -that this bill was a measure of socialism.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I do not care at
all what one of our spokesmen said, I am- just stating a matter of fact, to show exactly the postion of the hon. gentleman's party. It just .shows you how much faith the public of Canada can have in what is said by their spokesmen throughout the country when they support the principle of capital and profits and then curse capital and profits, declaring that the only panacea for the country, the only thing that will do any good, is to do away with profits and capital. To say the least, their position is hypocritical-I should not say. that; I beg your pardon. It is inconsistent.
Mr. MaeNICOL: They face both ways.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: They face both
ways at the same time. Even- their leader in the House of Commons, as reported at page 1270 of Hansard, supports the principle of the bill; he. supports the principle of profits and capital. He says:
A publicly owned institution of this description is an attempt, at least, to do something in the way of financing the development of this country by means of a public institution.
The bill intends that this sort of thing shall take place by private capital and individual enterprise and initiative, and profits.
I wish to say a few words with regard to the bill itself. It is unfortunate that it should have been brought down before the house had had an opportunity of examining the bill with reference to the revision of the Bank Act. Of
course, that is the way the government always act; they put the cart before the horse every time. One would suppose that this bill involved the principle on which the Bank Act is to be revised this year. It seems to me it should have been the other way; we should have had first an intimation of what the government intend to do in connection with the Bank Act so that we could intelligently discuss the situation. The government know; as a matter of fact they have known for quite a long, time, that the revision of the Bank Act will take place this year. They have had nine years to make up their minds about what will happen to the Bank Act when the revision is made. Surely in that time something could have been done about it. One hon. gentleman said that the industrial development bank bill was the major piece of legislation that had to be brought down. I hardly agree with him. In my opinion the major piece of legislation is the bill for the revision of the Bank Act.
A great many hon. members agree that it will be difficult to discuss this matter before the bill for the revision of the Bank Act is before the house. The purpose of the industrial development bank bill, however, is a good one. It gives the bank very broad powers, much broader even than the chartered banks are given, with the exception of one thing, namely, the receiving of deposits. The purpose of the bill is set out in the preamble. That purpose is to promote the economic welfare of Canada. No one can disagree with-that, and that purpose is to be achieved:
... by increasing the effectiveness of monetary action through ensuring the availability of credit to industrial enterprises which may reasonably be expected to prove successful if a high level of national income and employment is maintained.
I repeat, the purpose of the bill is an excellent one; but is this the right way to bring it about? There are a good -many reasons why it is probably not the right way and I think, therefore, the bill will require a great deal of consideration. It is a new venture, something new in Canada, and the banking and commerce committee will have to examine it very carefully.
One of the chief criticisms of the bill is that it fails to describe in greater detail the functions of the bank. Most of the legislation we have had since the war began has been subject to regulations of one kind or another and has been changed by order in council. I hope it is not the idea of the government to revise the Bank Act this year by order in council, because a good many major things have been done in that way.
Industrial Development Bank

The parliamentary assistant said:
Undoubtedly the cash resources of industry, including refundable taxes, have risen in recent years and will be used to finance part of the expenditures I have just mentioned.
As a matter of fact, it is really only those industries which have had an opportunity of taking advantage of accelerated depreciation under the excess profits tax which have been able to do this. Many companies, and especially small ones, have carried on without government assistance in the production of war goods and goods for civilian use as well, and they have found the excess profits tax has caused great difficulties. In connection with their reserves, whatever tax resources they have been able to maintain have been so maintained at the expense of depleted inventories in their business. Also, and this is very important, in the favourable commercial situation which has obtained during the war, provision for bad and doubtful debts has not been so great, and doubtful credits have been at a minimum. In the ordinary course of events, proper reserves would have been put by for these contingencies. They may be there and have not been used but have been taken in income tax.
I think the bank will be of great assistance, and people will want to take advantage of it. With respect to the powers, they are to be used mostly for the financing of small industry, and I think it is an excellent idea, because they can be used for the purpose of decentralizing industry. That is the proper way to use them, and, as the hon, member for Victoria, British Columbia, pointed out, this would be a great aid in the fulfilling of the ambition, initiative and private enterprise of the people who are returning from overseas, people who have to be placed in peace industry. As I see it, however, there are dangers in the set-up. I think it is a great mistake to have the board of directors composed of the board of directors of the Bank of Canada. This bank will sell its securities to the Bank of Canada. In other words, it takes its securities out of one pocket and puts them into another. One of the safeguards would be to have a board of directors entirely different from the directors of the Bank of Canada with the exception of perhaps one or two, because one set of directors have to pass judgment on the loan and the other set of directors have to pass judgment on the security which they accept for the loan and the amount of money to be advanced.
The whole success of the bank will depend upon the calibre and the enterprise of the people who run it. As I said before, the board of directors should be composed of two

or three members of the Bank of Canada and representatives from various stages of industry having at least the following qualifications and characteristics: undoubted integrity, free from political control, and a record of ability, showing ability to recognize and meet problems of employment, manufacturing and merchandising, and the acceptance of the obligation to work at their job of directing the bank. That is going to be a big job. They should not leave the execution of those obligations to a working staff who may or may not have the necessary wide connection or vision to do the right job. As I said, it is a full-time job, and when I see that the whole board of directors are to receive a remuneration of only ten thousand dollars it does not look as if the proper administration of the bank has the least chance of being fulfilled.
It is very important in times like these that the bank be started off on the right foot, for if it became mixed up with politics a lot of harm might be done before the public woke up to the mismanagement and corrected the situation. It is much more important because of the possibility of political interference and patronage. As the hon. member for Rosedale (Mr. Jackman) said a little while ago, if we once get patronage and political influence into this bank it will be a headache. We of this party do not want to see it become a headache, because it *will not be very long before we shall be in power and shall have to look after the management of the bank ourselves.


Mr. GIBSON:: Now you are being funny.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Well, it is a true possibility. I do not understand why a politically controlled bank such as this is preferable if the needs of business only are to be served. The Bank Act comes up for revision and reform this year. Is it not possible to make the present banking system fit into the needs of this bill? Your Honour called the hon. member for Gaspe (Mr. Roy) to order because he spoke of farming and of housing. I wish to point out to you, Mr. Speaker, that we have no farm bank bill before the house; we have no revision of the Bank Act before the house. That is the trouble. The abbreviated remarks of the parliamentary assistant to the minister gave us very little information. He told us we were to have something. The speech from the throne told us that. But what is the conjunctive legislation? Why do we not have it? When will the bill revising the Bank Act be brought down? We should like to see it and study its proposals. This bill will go to the banking and commerce committee and we shall then be able to discuss its various phases. As I said before, I support the

Industrial Development Bank
principle and purpose of the bill although I think there are perhaps better ways of carrying out its objectives.


Mr. M. J. EDWARDS (Calgary West):: Coming as I do from what on very good authority may some day very well be the industrial centre of Canada, I think something should be said as to Alberta's views with respect to this bill to promote the industrial development of Canada.
A year ago I gave expression to this thought on the debate on the reconstruction resolution, that in future years I believed we would have to look at Canada from the basis of economic units rather than political subdivisions, and I expressed the idea at that time which I did not know was entertained by such high authority as Mr. Griffith Taylor, one of the most outstanding geographers in the world, professor of geography in the university of Toronto, president of the British and American geographers' association, a man of outstanding ability in his line, and one who, I believe, has not only served Canada well but was in Australia for a number of years and later held a very important chair in the seats of learning in the United States. I commend to hon. members, who are interested in the future industrial development and population of Canada, a little brochure got out by "Contemporary Affairs", entitled "Canada's Role in Geopolitics by Griffith Taylor". I wish to call hon. members' attention to the last sentence in this brochure which, I believe, is a condensation of several books which Mr. Taylor has written on the subject. The concluding paragraph is as follows:
In conclusion it is interesting to speculate as to the centre of gravity of Canada's population a century hence. The agricultural and industrial potentialities of Alberta lend some support to the view that Calgary may surpass Ottawa: and even some day rival London as a focus of the empire. Consideration of the above cultural and economic distributions suggests that the political centre of the empire may move away from stormy Europe to the better protected Canadian section of the empire. Here it will be well placed to join hands with the great American public in promulgating and defending principles of democracy and liberty.
This brochure is dated August 17, 1942, and this world-famous authority and student had the present world situation before him when he wrote it. The main point of his thesis is that world centres of population are determined by geography in relation to the following:	climate, latitude, soil and mineral
resources. As far as industrial development is concerned, the most influential factor is the greatest source of all industrial power, namely coal, and he points to the fact that in Alberta, centering around Calgary, there is probably
the greatest coal reserve in the world. He points to what Britain and Germany have been able to do, and to the fact that their present power is largely dependent upon the use they have made of their coal resources.
I bemoan the fact that we in Alberta have not had the industrial development we might reasonably have expected. I think that is largely owing to lack of credit. Some ten years ago there came into power in that province a government which was to provide us with credit. That government had as one of its objectives something for which I have always praised and commended it, namely the idea that it should develop the latent resources of coal, oil, gas and water power which are found in Alberta, in greater abundance than in any other part of Canada. The "social credit" mechanism did not work.
This bill, I believe, points the way to the future industrial development of Alberta, and I am sure the business men and small industrialists of that province will welcome this legislation. Personally I have some doubts and misgivings as to its efficiency. In the preamble to the bill itself it is stated that this legislation is designed to promote the economic welfare of Canada by supplementing the activities of other lenders and providing capital assistance to industry, with particular consideration to the financing problems of small enterprises. In other words, primarily it is to finance small enterprises; but to succeed, small enterprises require something more than credit. Markets are required, and you must know something about what your tax structure is to be. As I see it, this measure will be of greater assistance to the small industries in the industrial centres of eastern Canada, because here there is a much more favourable situation as far as taxes are concerned than we have in any other province.
I shall not soon forget an occasion in 1940 when members of this house from Alberta apnroached the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe) with the plea that he should give some contracts for munitions and supplies to Alberta in order to stimulate industrial development in that province. I recall his answer: "Gentlemen, the keystone of the arch of industrial development is surplus power, without which you cannot hope to build an industrial structure. At the present time in the province of Alberta you have no surplus power. When you have, come back and see me, because I have numerous contracts that I should like to award." At that meeting he stated that the proposed capacity of the ammonia nitrate plant at Calgary had been cut by more than forty per cent, because the power company was not able to supply the

industrial Development Bank
requisite amount of electrical energy. Fortunately that situation has been rectified; but Alberta, in common with all but one of the other provinces, finds itself under a disadvantage which will militate against our industrial development when this war is over.
That situation arises as a result of our present federal method of taxation. It is true that Ontario has gone ahead industrially by leaps and bounds, because it has an abundance of cheap power; but at what price as far as the rest of Canada is concerned? The Ontario hydro electric, of which that province is so justly proud, does not pay one red cent of revenue to the federal treasury toward the carrying on of the war, whereas the power companies of Quebec, the maritimes, Manitoba, my own province of Alberta and British Columbia are paying literally millions of dollars in federal taxes. That in itself is bad enough, but in addition we find that the power industries in all these other provinces by reason of federal taxation, are not able to keep up, replace and modernize their machinery and distribution systems in anticipation of post-war needs. *


Thomas Vien: Order. I have had
occasion to-day to call an hon. member to order in connection with the discussion of a proposition which was not related to the bill. As I understand the argument of the hon. member, he is now proposing to make some distinction in connection with electrical power in the various provinces. That does not come under this bill, and I would ask the hon. member to refrain from that line of argument.


Manley Justin Edwards: Well, Mr. Speaker, the bill itself specifically refers to the generation or distribution of electricity. I refer Your Honour to section 2, paragraph (d), which reads:
"Industrial enterprise" means a business in which the manufacture, processing or refrigeration of goods, wares and merchandise or the building of ships or vessels or the generating or distributing of electricity is carried on.
I bow to Your Honour's ruling, if I am out of order.


Thomas Vien: As I understood it, the hon. member's argument was that there was power in some provinces, but not the same power in Alberta, and he was making a plea to the minister in order that some assistance might be given to Alberta. But that is far beyond the provisions of the bill, which deals with financial assistance to industry.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I think in fairness to my hon. friend I might say that, as I understood, he was discussing the handicap which his province, among others, had suffered because the
fMr. Edwards.l
power industry in Alberta is subject to federal tax, whereas in other parts of Canada it is not. That might not be closely related' to the subject matter of the bill, but it does, of course, relate to the general question of industrial development in Canada.


Thomas Vien: I would not wish the hon. member to emphasize that point unduly.


Manley Justin Edwards: I was just going to refer to the preamble of the bill, which limits the asistance to those industries likely to succeed. I was pointing out that small industries in one part of Canada are more likely to be favoured under this legislation than are small industries in other parts of Canada, unless some regard is given to taxation.
I draw this statement to the attention of hon. members, because I believe it crystallizes what I have been saying. Mr. K. A. Christie, K.C., vice-chairman of the Hydro Electric Power Commission, told the Toronto board of control that the hydro would not be able to continue as a public utility without this advantage of tax exemption. That is a frank admission of an important truth. If power development in one section of Canada is relieved of taxation, both federal and provincial, the advantage to industries using it is obvious.
I urge that for the bank to succeed in rendering that assistance which it should render to small industry-and in this respect I suggest the bill is defective-some regard will have to be had to the suggestion that there be some geographical considerations as to where this assistance can be applied. As other hon. members have pointed out, it would be just too bad if the industrial development bank were to look at the industrial field in Ontario and Quebec, and say, "It is in those provinces that small industries are more likely to succeed. We are going to have a greater population in those centres, so, perforce, it is in those provinces that the assistance will be given by the bank. Power is cheaper, because the power producer pays no provincial or federal taxes. On the other hand, in the other provinces of Canada every user of electricity must pay more, because it is bought from a private corporation which does pay taxes to the municipal, provincial and federal authorities."
I, too, share some misgivings in connection with putting the federal treasury into the banking business. It is really not the banking business, and I think the fact that the bill has been referred to as one setting up an industrial bank has created a wrong impression in the minds of most people. The organization proposed is really a loan company, and its opera-

Industrial Development Bank
tions will be more analogous to those of a loan company than to those of a bank, as we understand banking.
I should like to think of this institution, as a pontoon bridge, a temporary auxiliary structure designed purely and simply to get us back from a war-time to a peace-time economy; that it will have served that purpose, within the five, ten or fifteen post-war years during which we shall pass from a war-time to a peace-time economy, and the need for government assistance will have passed out of existence, because in the meantime private enterprise and private industry will have caught up with the normal needs. As a matter of fact, I believe the fact that this bill is deemed desirable and necessary is a criticism of our private banks, loans companies and insurance companies, owing to the fact that they have not seen the necessity and desirability of setting up some such institution as is contemplated in the bill.
There is now, and -there will be in even greater volume when the war is over, a tremendous amount of money looking for investment. The era of employment to which we all look forward can come about only to the degree to which industry becomes active and alert. I would hope, and I would certainly think the government would hope that there might be a rapid conversion of victory bonds in order that the money represented thereby might find its way into industry for the production of consumer and capital goods. So far as I can see, it is only in that way that we can ever have that era of industrial prosperity we all desire so much.
It is for that reason that I for one favour the bill, and in that I believe the people of Alberta will support me. I suggest, however, that the committee should give serious consideration to some direction as to where and how the loans of -the bank are to be allocated. We must visualize the diversification of industry, and that can be brought about only if the men who are doing the lending view Canada as a whole, see the potential industrial future of the whole country, and give some thought to developing new industry in new areas.
The fact that we have no dye or chemical industry, and that we have never had one, is a trite commentary on our Canadian economic policy. Surely with the reserves of coal we have in Canada we should never again be as dependent as we have been upon Europe and other countries. I would hope that the directorate of the bank would envision a broad and diversified industrial development, so that we might give a start to those industries which bid fair to operate successfully in Canada.
One of the things which has come out of this war and of which I am very proud is the nitrogen plant located at Calgary. For the first time this chemical is being produced in Canada as an industry in itself. I am reliably informed that the Calgary plant is one of the most economically and efficient producers of ammonia nitrate, the base for all explosives, to be found anywhere in the world. Thanks to the engineering and scientific ability of our own Canadians a way has recently been found of pelleting ammonia nitrate, and this can now be used as a fertilizer. A few months ago we were shipping this chemical to five or six different explosive plants in the United States, but now the same product is being shipped in the form of fertilizer to at least four different countries.
I hope that the board- of this bank keeps in mind not only the diversification of existing industry but the sponsoring and assisting of new industries, of which we have all -too few in this country.
At six o'clock the house took recess.
After Recess
The house resumed at eight o'clock.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Mr. Speaker, there have been a good many matters raised in this debate, many of them relevant to the bill which is under discussion and some of them not quite so relevant.
At the outset of my remarks I wish to refer to certain statements made by the hon. member for Lethbridge (Mr. Bla-ckmore) which fall under the second category and which relate to the price and supply of sugar, which, as the house is aware, falls under the department with which I have the honour to be associated. Speaking in the debate last Tuesday, March 7, he made this statement, as reported in Hansard at page 1278:
I believe, solemnly that there has been no need of scarcity of sugar in Canada during this war, or for the years immediately preceding the war, nor has there been any reason or justification for the high prices of sugar which have prevailed. Evidence which I adduced the other night proved conclusively the soundness of my position. I believe that quantity and price have been affected, not so much iby the circumstances of war, as by the fact that prior to the war and also during the war the production and sale of sugar have been manipulated by a sugar trust or combine and that one of the dominating units in this trust has been the St. Lawrence Sugar Refining Company.
I find it hard to imagine a statement of comparable length which could contain, a greater number of errors and inconsistencies.
Industrial Development Bank

Let us see what the facts are on this question. The hon. member alleges, first, that there was a scarcity of sugar immediately preceding the war, and the fact is that there was no shortage of sugar immediately preceding the war. On the contrary, there had been a huge surplus of sugar overhanging the world market for many years. Then he went on tc say:
. . . nor has there been any reason or justification for the high prices of sugar which have prevailed.
Before the war, in fact during the whole period from 1920 to 1939, the price of sugar was not high as he says, but was consistently lower than in any previous time in history.
Coming now to the period of the war itself, just think of the difference in the way in which sugar was dealt with in this war and in the last. In the last war the government did not take any effective action to control prices and the price of sugar went as high as twenty-five cents a pound. With that experience in mind, the government in this war at the very outset took appropriate steps to control the distribution and to control stocks. As a consequence of the measures which were taken there was no shortage of sugar in Canada until rationing was adopted in February, 1942, and the price of sugar has increased to only about eight and one-half cents a pound.


Richard Burpee Hanson: May I
ask the hon. member a question. Is he aware that during the period of the last war there was no control in the United States and no control in Britain?


Douglas Charles Abbott: No, I was not aware of
that.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That
affects the situation.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I do not particularly desire to put blame on anyone. I was simply comparing the results in the last war and in this war, and I prefaced what I said with the statement that, based on experience in the last war, steps had been taken at the very outset of this war.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Of course there is a tendency over there to show how much better we are than the other fellow was.


An hon. MEMBER:: And it is true.


Richard Burpee Hanson: We won the last war, and this is not won yet.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Now as to the question of shortage. The shortage which occurred and which led to rationing was entirely owing to the difficult shipping situation, and now that that shipping situation has been to a large

extent remedied the fact is that world supplies have been considerably depleted, so that rationing has to be continued.
Mr. BLACIiMORE: Will my hon. friend
permit a question?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Yes.


Mr. BLACKMORE:: Would he contend before this house that it would have been impossible for Canada to establish four or five or six factories for the manufacture of beet sugar during the period immediately preceding the war?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I do not know whether it would have been impossible or not, but I will say this to my hon. friend: he will see in a moment, from what I have to say, that it would not have made any difference to the amount of sugar available to the Canadian consuming public.
That brings me to the point I was just about to make, that the surplus production of the world is divided by agreement between Great Britain, the United States and Canada, and under that agreement sugar is made available to Canada in order to meet our needs. An increase in the production of beet sugar, in which the hon. member for Lethbridge is particularly interested, would not result in any increase in the total quantity of sugar available to Canada under the agreement.


John Horne Blackmore: May I ask the hon. gentleman if Canada had' anything to do with making the agreement?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


John Horne Blackmore: I am not going to ask too many questions.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I wish to get to the provisions of the bill as soon as I can, and I do not want to dwell too long on this question of the price of sugar. Since October, 1939, all the sugar brought into Canada has been allocated by the sugar administrator to the sugar refineries at fixed' prices. The refined article has been distributed at prices fixed by the sugar administrator. It has been a difficult operation, and I think it is only fair to say that it has been carried out with conspicuous success, to the great advantage of the Canadian people. And yet my hon. friend says:
. . . during the war the production and sale of sugar have been manipulated by a sugar trust or combine and that one of the dominating units in this trust has been the St. Lawrence Sugar Refining Company.
Had there been such a sugar trust as my hon. friend alleges we might have seen sugar

Industrial Development Bank
rise to twenty-five or thirty cents a pound, as it did in the last war, and I do not imagine that that is the kind of action which my hon. friend would have wanted or that the Canadian people would have wanted.
Another statement made by the hon. member for Lethbridge, as reported in Hansard, at page 1278, was:
. . . since the war broke out, men came into this city and went to see responsible officials in the dominion government and offered to bring into Canada three sugar factories, and they were refused the concessions which they needed in order to give them a chance to establish sugar factories to produce sugar in this country. The men in charge of the government chose rather to let the Canadian people go short than risk an abundance of sugar-an abundance which they dreaded.
I have already dealt with the question of abundance, and I' have pointed out that under the agreement any extra production of sugar in Canada w'ould not have resulted in any additional sugar for the Canadian people. Until February, 1942, there was in fact no shortage, and since then Canada has shared in the available sugar with the United Kingdom and the United States. I should like to know, however, who these people are to whom my hon. friend refers who offered to bring into Canada three sugar refineries. The sugar administrator has been in close touch with the sugar situation and should have been aware of any serious approach of that kind if it had been made, and yet I am informed that he does not know of any serious project to build additional factories in Canada during the war.


John Horne Blackmore: His memory is very short.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I say this without going into the question as to whether additional factories would have added to the total amount of sugar available in Canada.
Finally, the hon. member asks as to the relationship between the government and this alleged great sugar combine. I have already stated and the house knows how sugar has been dealt with by the government during the war. Because of the nature of the commodity, the government felt that drastic action had to be taken at the very outbreak of the war. I do not suppose that under ordinary circumstances the sugar refiners would have particularly welcomed that action. Nevertheless, events have proved that the action was justified; and in view of my hon. friend's remarks I think it is only fair to say that the sugar administration of the government has received the most loyal and wholehearted cooperation from the sugar refiners of this country.


Richard Burpee Hanson: They were guaranteed a profit.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I should now like to turn to the provisions of the bill which is under discussion.
As I said at the outset, a good many points of substance have been raised in connection with this measure and, as some of the hon. members who raised them have indicated, I feel that a good many of these points can be more appropriately dealt with when the bill is before the banking and commerce committee. A good many of them involve questions that are perhaps of a rather technical or detailed nature, and the committee will probably want to call evidence in order to obtain the benefit of specialized views on these questions. However, there have been a considerable number of suggestions and criticisms involving matters of principle, and with these I should like to deal briefly in my remarks in closing the debate.
The first point is.the need for the proposed bank. The hon. member for York-Sunbury (Mr. Hanson) and the hon. member for Rosedale (Mr. Jackman) in particular have suggested that in my opening remarks I failed to demonstrate the need for such an institution. I thought I had, and that thought has been rather borne out by the majority of the speeches which have been made on the second reading. The majority of hon. members who have spoken seem to feel that there is a definite need for an institution of this kind. I am convinced that there is, and, if I may, I should like to illustrate that need by a concrete example.
Take the case of an individual or a group of individuals contemplating the establishment of a small or medium-sized industry, say a plastic industry such as was suggested by the hon. member for Victoria, British Columbia (Mr. Mayhew) this afternoon. These people have $25,000 of their own capital. The enterprise they have in mind would require an investment of, say $50,000 to put up the plant, equip it with machinery and so on, and in addition to that they require $10,000 or $15,000 for working capital to purchase raw materials and pay wages until the product is sold. If they had $50,000, if they had the plant constructed and in operation, there is no doubt in the world that the existing commercial banks of the country would be ready and willing to make them that working capital loan of $10,000 or $15,000 to which I have referred. The difficulty they face is to get a loan of $25,000 to enable them to build a plant.
I know the experience of my hon. friend the member for York-Sunbury is greater than my
Industrial Development Bank

own. However, I have practised law in one of the largest industrial centres of Canada for over twenty years. In the course of that time I have acquired some knowledge of the financial problems of industrial enterprises, both large and small, and I know, and I believe the hon. member for York-Sunbury knows, that it would be extremely difficult for an enterprise of that kind to get that $25,000 to enable it to construct and equip that plant. There would be only two sources from which they could get it. They might possibly get it from one of the mortgage institutions, although as a rule life insurance and mortgage companies do not like to lend for five, ten, or fifteen years on mortgages on industrial property. They might get it from a private lender, but under those circumstances, I fancy, speaking from my own experience, they would probably have to pay a high price for the money.
I am satisfied, therefore, that in such a case -and I think it is perhaps fair to say that it is typical of the small or medium-sized industries which this bank is designed to assist-* there would be no readily available credit agency from which that credit of $25,000 could be obtained; and yet the enterprise might be a perfectly sound one, quite likely to succeed, with competent management and all the rest.
The purpose of this bank is not, as some hon. members have suggested, to make obviously bad loans but to supplement the operations of existing lending institutions. It is not intended to compete, nor do I believe that it will compete, with existing chartered banks. It does not extend government ownership or control over those banks, and it does not encroach upon their operations in any way which in my view might undermine their earning power or their independence.
Incidentally, I was rather puzzled in listening to the hon. member for York-Sunbury and the hon, member for Rosedale when they expressed the view that existing credit institutions were entirely capable of taking care of intermediate or long-term credit for small industries in cases such as I have outlined, and particularly so because the day before the hon. member for York-Sunbury made his speech with reference to this bill I read in the Ottawa Journal what I assumed to be the latest supplementary programme of the Progressive Conservative party, of which he is such a distinguished member, and I noticed item five of the suggested programme recommending "consideration of the establishment of a central farm bank to operate in cooperation with private lending institutions."
I find it a little difficult to see why the credit requirements of agriculture should be so differ-

ent from those of industry that they should require a government central farm bank to operate in cooperation with private lending institutions. I cannot help having a shrewd suspicion that if it had not been indicated in the speech from the throne that the government proposed to introduce legislation to create an industrial development bank we might not have seen a suggestion of that kind in one of these supplementary programmes. Be that as it may, I find a certain inconsistency between the suggestion contained in that proposed platform and the criticism which was offered, particularly by the hon. member for Rosedale.
The second point I should like to deal with relates to the scope of the bill. There has been a considerable amount of discussion of that feature. I simply wish to point out that loans will be made to industrial enterprises as defined in the bill; it is the type of business engaged in which is the limiting factor, and there is no intention to limit the operation of the measure by reference to the class of persons engaging in that business. The point was raised by the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) as to whether it would be available to cooperative enterprises. My own view is that it would. I do not know what the legal situation would be. I assume they are able to incur obligations, and I do not see why a cooperative carrying on industrial enterprises of the nature contemplated in this bill would not be eligible for credit under the proposed legislation.
I do not want to discuss detailed matters. They can be more appropriately dealt with before the committee. However, the question was raised as to assistance to mining. In that connection I would say that the facilities of the bank will be available to a mining enterprise which was in that stage of production; that is to say, if the mine wished financial assistance to build a smelter or a processing plant in order to process ore, then it would come within the definition of an industrial enterprise. On the other hand, the bill does not contemplate and would not permit loans to prospecting mining companies, and in my view I think it would be most undesirable for an institution of this kind-


Richard Burpee Hanson: The hon. member means proven ventures?


Douglas Charles Abbott: That is correct, proven ventures which have a plant or a mill in which they are processing ore.
The third point made was that all the credit legislation of the government should be brought in at the same time.
Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury); Hear, hear.

Industrial Development Bank


Douglas Charles Abbott: There is a good deal to be said for that suggestion, but in answer to the criticism I would say that the government considers that, whatever other credit legislation may be adopted, the creation of an industrial development bank of the nature provided for in this bill will be necessary in any event. It is a new institution. It will require a certain amount of time to organize, and it was felt that the bill for the creation of this bank being ready it was desirable to place it before parliament as soon as possible in order that parliament might discuss it and the banking and commerce committee discuss it. It was thought that was preferable to bringing down the Industrial Development bank bill, the Bank Act and other bills which may be introduced. Certainly they could not all be discussed at the same time. There may be some merit in the suggestion that they should have been brought down at the same time, but I think, Mr. Speaker, that it is not really a very serious objection, and that parliament and the country would probably be just as well served by this bill being introduced first and the members being given the opportunity, as they have been given, to debate it now and have it referred to the banking and commerce committee for detailed discussion there.
The next point which was raised along general lines was that capital resources of this bank are inadequate for the purposes which it is designed to serve. Here again, I wish to emphasize the point that this bank is only supplementary to existing credit agencies. It is not intended that this bank should provide all the industrial credit that is needed in this country. The larger enterprises, the larger concerns, which have been able to rely in the past on the investment market by making public issues of preferred stocks and bonds, may and should continue to avail themselves of that market. It is anticipated that they will do so. The comparisons that have been made with the increased national income are, I suggest, completely misleading, and as a final point on this question of the adequacy or otherwise it was felt that parliament might well object to creating what, for want of a better term, I may describe as an open-end credit institution. Just in passing I might [DOT]state that prior to the war the industrial loans of the chartered banks averaged somewhere in the vicinity of $200,000,000. I cite that figure simply to give the house some idea that an institution with lending resources of $100,000,000 is not merely a drop in the bucket as some hon. members appear to believe.
There is also this further point. It is felt, and I believe rightly so, that the influence of this bank may well be greater than the
amount of its own resources, and the very fact that the industrial development bank is willing to participate in an industrial enterprise may well encourage others to put in capital as well.
Finally, there is the point touched on by the hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Reid) this afternoon, namely, if $100,000,000 proves inadequate it is open to parliament to amend the bill and to increase the permissible amount of loanable funds. There was objection taken to the association of this industrial bank with the Bank of Canada, our central bank. It is perfectly true, as the hon. member for Van-couver-Burrard (Mr. McGeer) and others have indicated, that the primary function of a central bank is to control the volume of money and credit in the country. But that fact does not preclude a central bank either directly or through a subsidiary, as in this case, from engaging in lending operations of a special character. There is ample precedent for that in the central banks of other countries. For instance, the federal reserve bank in the United States makes loans under section 13 (B) of the Federal Reserve Act. The Bankers' Industrial Development Company, to which the hon. member for Rosedale referred this afternoon, was set up under the auspices of the Bank of England, and I am advised that the central banks of other countries do engage in lending of a special character.
The hon. member for Vancouver-Bur-rard also raised the point that if this bank commences its operations with $100,000,000 of Bank of Canada money, which in the ordinary course would go out into the commercial banking system of the country, it would enable the chartered banks, the commercial banks, to expand their loans and deposits by some $2,000,000,000. While that is perfectly true in theory, of course, it would only happen if the Bank of Canada saw fit to allow this to take place. The chartered banks would be in a position to expand their deposits and their loans only to the extent suggested by my hon. friend if the Bank of Canada failed to take appropriate action. The Bank of Canada controls the reserves of the chartered banks. It is buying and selling securities every day for the purpose of increasing or decreasing those reserves, and the amount involved here would cause no difficulty whatever so far as controlling the reserves of the chartered banks is concerned.
Finally, Mr. Speaker, the question was raised that the creation of this bank was an undesirable encroachment on the field of private enterprise; that it was a field which private enterprise was quite capable of filling, and that consequently it should be left with private
14S4
Industrial Development Bank

enterprise to make loans of this kind. As to that, I suggest that in the past private enterprise in this country has not, for very good reasons, mind you, made the intermediate loans or long term loans of the nature contemplated in this bill.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What are
those reasons?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I would say the principal reasons are, as I indicated in my opening statement on the bill, that their liabilities are entirely or largely of a demand nature or of a very short term nature, and that consequently the type of credit which our banking system contemplates they should extend is credit which will be for a year or not much longer than a year. Our banks, and I think quite properly so, have never gone into the longterm lending field, lending of the type I have described in the example I gave at the outset of my remarks. I feel that they quite properly have not gone into that field, and I think the wisdom of that course was demonstrated during the period from 1930 to 1935 or 1936 when banks in other countries ran into serious difficulties as a result of following a different policy.
The question of public ownership of certain enterprises is, of course, a moot one. My own view is that public ownership is omty a means to an end. It is not an end in itself, and it is justified in those cases, but those cases only, where we have a policy that we wish to be carried out and where we believe that that policy can best be achieved by public ownership.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The hon.
member does not believe in the expropriation of the Montreal Power?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Well, public ownership of power is certainly not a new development in this country; but I do not know that the expropriation of the Montreal Light, Heat and Power company is particularly relevant to the bill I am discussing.


Richard Burpee Hanson: It follows naturally from what the hon. member is saying.


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: A leading question.


Douglas Charles Abbott: This bank is a publicly
owned institution to assist private enterprise, and in my view is an ideal example of the partnership between government and private industry which is so much to be desired. I should like to conclude my remarks, which I hope have not been too long, by quoting from a speech made by Mr. Churchill a little over

two years ago, in which I entirely concur. He was speaking in the Guildhall on March 21, 1942, and said:
The modern state will increasingly concern itself with the economic well-being of the nation, but it is all the more vital to revive at the earliest moment widespread, healthy and vigorous enterprise, without which we shall never be able to provide in the years when it is needed the employment for our soldiers, sailors and airmen to which they are entitled after their duty has been done.
And a little later in his speech he said:
And I tell you my solemn belief, which is that if we act with comradeship and loyalty to our country and to one another, and if we can make state enterprise and free enterprise both serve national interests and pull the national wagon side by side, then there is no need for us to run into that horrible devastating slump or into that squalid epoch of bickering and confusion which mocked and squandered the hard won victory which we gained a quarter of a century ago.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on banking and commerce.


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Thursday, March 9, consideration in committee of a resolution to grant to His Majesty certain sums of money for the carrying out of measures consequent upon the existence of a state of war-Mr. Ilsley

Mr. Bradette in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
1. Civil salaries, $6,511,987.
Thomas Langton Church: In the statement the minister made the other evening he covered almost every phase of this subject and left very little for a member of the opposition to say. I believe the record of Ontario and of Toronto has been most creditable as far as the navy is concerned, with 2,044 officers and 29,958 ratings enlisting in that province and city. Starting from scratch the navy, the senior service, has written a glorious page in the history of courage in this war, and I believe a great deal of the credit for the showing made by the navy in the Toronto district is due to the work which was done by the city itself, the harbour commission and the schools. I was a member of the Toronto harbour board when it was first formed, before the Navy League was formed, and the city of Toronto was very generous in helping the senior branch of the service with grants of all kinds and tag days. I remember when there was no navy

War Appropriation-Naval Services
league, when the sea cadets carried on the work; I can also remember when there was a navy league, which sometimes between the two wars went to sleep on the job. I was glad to hear the minister give credit to the work done by the sea cadets, who were largely instrumental in bringing so many men into the naval service and merchant marine.
The reclamation work in the harbour of Toronto covered twelve or thirteen miles of waterfront; and notwithstanding what was said the other evening, a great deal of that work to aid the senior service was done by the public bodies I have mentioned and by the rowing clubs, the canoe clubs, the swimming clubs and the small yacht clubs; not the larger clubs, which were not much interested at the time. From 1923 on, splendid work in connection with the navy was done by Commander Hose, who had a great deal to do with putting the naval service on its present basis. At one time the navy had a boathouse at the western end of the harbour, at Hanlon's point; then the old steamer Cambria was given to them, and it was kept at the foot of York street before the waterfront improvements were begun in 1913. With the coming of the viaduct it was necessary for us to move the various aquatic clubs out to Sunnyside, and after that the navy work was carried on with the assistance of grants from the city of Toronto and tag days held by the Navy League, and so on. I want to make a fair statement of the case,' and I shall take only a few moments to do so.
Shortly after the war we were visited by three admirals of the fleet. The first to come was Admiral Jellicoe, in December, 1919. I showed him the old quarters of the sea cadets and the naval volunteers. Later on we had a visit from Admiral Beatty, Admiral of the Fleet, and the third to visit us was Admiral Tyrwhitt. The work of the Navy League in Toronto was greatly aided by regattas and tag days held by it. I was glad to see the minister at the Canadian Henley last year. We had the Dominion day regatta, the high school regatta, the canoe regatta, the swimming regattas, the Canadian Henley, and finally the exhibition regatta in the fall. We also had a visit by Mr. Peter Wright, president of the British seamen's union, who came to urge that something should be done for the merchant marine of this country. I well remember in this house, when I was calling attention to the necessity for rearmament on land, on sea and in the air, for many years before the present war broke out, and between the two wars, that when there were several disasters on the great lakes I suggested
advancing the grain crop from the head of the lakes, ships were wrecked, and we had no proper merchant marine service on the lakes or aids to navigation to take care of those men. Many of them were drowned, and all they could do was blow a whistle, in the hope that they would attract the attention of some United States life-saving station in order that their lives might be saved. That showed the length, depth and breadth to which disarmament and pacifism had gone in this country.
In my opinion the statement made by the minister is a most commendable one, because we must realize that the sea is our life. This empire came into being by the sea, and cannot exist without it. But between the two wars disarmament and the reduction of our sea power had its effect. As I have said on many occasions when speaking in that period between the two wars, I have been opposed to the absolute complacency of parliament in not having paid more attention to this matter. It has been stated in our financial statements that at one time we were the fifth trading nation of the world. I pointed out that we had no fleet, with the exception of the merchant marine, and that that merchant marine was doing good work on the oceans and the seas, and in the inland waterways of Canada. As I said, at a most critical time nothing was done about it.
In 1937 I urged a vast shipbuilding policy for Canada and the empire. The imperial conference was about to be held in London, and it will be remembered that New Zealand and Australia asked for a vast empire shipping and air scheme, not only to look after conditions at that time, but to prepare for what was believed to be an approaching war. Canada said, " We have no commitments," and that parliament would decide. We missed one of the greatest opportunities at that conference to prepare for this war and to join in the work. I have always laid stress on the importance of our merchant marine for the defence of Great Britain-and not only Great Britain, but the whole empire. I have called attention to this fact on many occasions when speaking in the house. I have asked about the inability of the British merchant marine and empire to retain the commercial supremacy they had for 150 years, without increased votes and without looking after the merchant marine.
The merchant sailors got very little help. I have seen steamers leave Toronto, many of them without proper crews. All they could do was pick up some stragglers on the docks. I was glad to hear the minister's announcement the other night with respect to the sea cadet movement, which is preparing a way not only

War Appropriation-Naval Services
for the present war but for the merchant marine trade war which will follow. The sea cadets are being trained so that when they take their places in any ship of any size, either on the oceans or on the inland waterways of Canada, they will be found helpful. This is a most commendable feature. I saw something of them at the Royal Canadian Henley. I was glad to see the minister there, and to note the interest he has taken in this particular branch of the work of his department. It is the most important of all.
Before the days of Munich, in 1934, 1935, 1936 and 1937, I urged in the house that we should do something for those who were riding the rods, young men who were coming out of high schools, numbering about 250,000 each year. I proposed in the debates of those days that instead of spending a billion dollars on the dole, as was done by the municipalities, provinces and the federal authorities, we should do something for those young people. In that I was borne out by my late friend, Mr. Rogers. I took that stand, realizing that since the days of the Nile rebellion we have been an aquatic people. It will be recalled that during the General Gordon trouble in the Nile river they had to send to Ontario and Quebec, to the lumber camps, to get men to navigate the rapids. For many years before the war I urged in the house that we should have a naval policy, a grant to Singapore base, and should have adopted the Jellico report for the pacific. We should have had a vast shipbuilding policy, and in addition to that we should have gone into some sort of educational system by which we would have taken the young people who were riding the rods in the days of depression and given them an opportunity to learn trades and have a military training. At the end of three years, after having served their apprenticeship, they would have been ready to man any ships on the lakes or the oceans. Had we followed that suggestion, not only on the sea but on the land and in the air we would have had at least 25,000 skilled pilots and air mechanics, and at the outbreak of war we would not have had as much trouble.
I am glad to see that provision is being made for the future, because, when the war is over-and there is no doubt about this at all-Canada will have to maintain a large army, navy and air force for many years to come. There should be a future for the young people who are coming out of the high schools and universities to-day, and entering the navy. There should be some future occupation for them,- and they should be able to accept naval service as their profession; because, if we are to hold our own in the days that are to come, both in war and after the
[Mr. Church,[
peace is won, we shall have to do something to maintain our position as a great trading nation on the seas.
The Book of Common Prayer-it is not often read in the house-does contain two prayers which the rubric directs shall be read and used twice a day by those in His Majesty's navy. In one of those prayers the officers and men pray that they may be a safeguard unto our Most Gracious Sovereign Lord King George, and His Dominions, and be security for such as pass upon the seas, upon their lawful occasions. I direct attention to the last few words, "upon their lawful occasions", because they describe most eloquently the true function of the whole fleet, and the duty of the navy. It means that it has a duty in peace and war, one which is realized by all who serve in it, from the ratings to the top, to establish and maintain order, justice and freedom in the world; for sea power is not an instrument of tyranny; it is anti-tyrannous. It does not seek domination, but offers freedom for all those who pursue their lawful occasions, as it is set out in the Book of Common Prayer. So that I believe the minister, in the step he has taken, has fulfilled the object of that particular work.
In 1793, during the darkest hour of the war with Napoleon, Pitt referred to the drawing forward of many domestic matters, and the drawing of red herrings across the trail to divert attention from the war, which was then in a most dangerous state, despite some recent victories. Pitt said, "We are engaged in a war for the purpose of defending ourselves against foreign enemies. Is this the reason why we should hazard the consequence of it by distraction at home?" That is more true to-day than it was when he said it away back in 1793. Therefore I hope that for at least the remainder of the war we shall give almost exclusive precedence to matters connected with the war.
Since the minister made his last statement a year ago to the house there has been a vast improvement, so far as his department is concerned. A year ago the war in the Atlantic was in a grave state. It caused many anxious hours not only to the mother country, lest she might be starved out, but to others. The war in the Atlantic was in a most precarious state, and the position was grave. The mother country for centuries has depended upon her supremacy on the seas. But no army, navy or air force could defend them if the merchant marine were inadequate or ceased to function.
The sea is our life, and without in any way deprecating the splendid work that has been done, and will again be done if necessity arises, by our soldiers and our airmen, it is an undeniable fact that any war in which we

War Appropriation-Naval Services
may find ourselves involved against a maritime nation will be won or lost at sea and nowhere else. The greatest menace on the Atlantic during the past year or so undoubtedly has been the U-boat. For a long time the organizers of our defence against this deadly menace ignored the fact that the U-boat could be mastered only by combined operations in the air and on the sea. But the inertia of the higher war direction was at last overcome; the fleet air arm was strengthened, and the admiral commanding and the commodores of the western approaches were given the means to counter this attack. The results are shown by the figures. On November 10, 1943, Mr. Churchill issued an Anglo-American statement to the effect that during August, September and October, 1943, some sixty U-boats had been destroyed. This was mainly on account of the fact that there was unison between the operations on land, sea and in the air. We had land forces in Iceland because we realized that an air base can be held only by an army. The result of all these operations has been that the U-boat has practically retired from the Atlantic.
The figures given on page 17 of the February issue of "Canada at War" show the magnificent achievement of our Canadian merchant marine. I quote some of these figures:
Certified to date in central registry,
Ottawa	 44,498
Merchant seamen's identification certificates issued	 29,083
In his statement the minister referred to the success achieved in the Mediterannean. I referred the other night, when speaking on the air estimates, to the glorious work of the Royal Navy. I was glad to hear the tribute paid by the hon. member for Vancouver North (Mr. Sinclair) to the Royal Navy and Admiral Cunningham. I have already spoken on these matters but I repeat my remarks to-night. Other matters can be taken up when the various items are before the committee, but in conclusion I should like to refer to one or two matters.
Something should be done, and I hope it will be done before very long, in connection with the adoption of a scheme of national insurance for the three forces. A great deal of economy could be achieved through such a system. Many of our young people are going to be lost in the months to come and we should consider the great losses which the navy has sustained because of lack of proper preparations. A system of national insurance such as they have in the United States would save us a great deal of money, especially in connection with the Department of Pensions
and National Health and the payment of subsistence and other allowances to families after the war.
We had a long statement about the pay and allowances in the three forces, from the heads down. There are still many inequalities, even in the navy. I want to plead the case of the low paid man. We have a citizen army, a citizen navy and a citizen air force. When a man joins the forces there is no reason why he should lose his status as a citizen. Nearly all *these men own property of some kind or another and their investments should be protected. A cost of living bonus should be paid to those men and I hope that these matters are taken up at the proper time.
We are part and parcel of the British empire. On four or five occasions I have called attention to the great need of ports and bases on the Irish sea. Those ports belong to the empire and I hope that this matter will be taken up before very long. I realize that this does not come under the minister's department; it probably belongs in foreign affairs, but the fact remains that New Zealand, Australia and the United States are asking that something should be done. We should have some statement about this. A little while ago I received a letter from Mr. John M. Andrews, formerly Premier of Northern Ireland, in which be referred to the great losses that had occurred through lack of bases and from espionage. He said in part:
The empire must stand together or break up. The neutrality of Eire has been a great disadvantage in this tragic world war and has cost many gallant lives of British and Canadian citizens, as well as those of the United States.
I hope that something will be done to strengthen the hands of the mother country. I hope that something will be done to prevent the giving of signals and tip-offs by spies as was done at the time of Dieppe and Dunkirk. I wish to compliment the minister upon the statement he has given to the committee. Thirty-two thousand men have joined the navy, mostly from the central part of Ontario, and I trust that something will be done immediately about building the new naval barracks at Toronto. The city has provided a site on a waterfront that cost over a million and a *half to fill in behind a retaining wall. This is the second occasion since the last war on which Toronto has provided a site for the navy, the other one being on the waterfront at the foot of Dowling avenue, given for one dollar a year to the Navy League while I was chairman of the harbour board.
I hope that something will be done to provide greater protection for our soldiers, sailors and airmen after the war. These men must

War Appropriation-Naval Services
now be taken through the northern channel on their way to England when we should be able to use the southern channel to Portsmouth and other ports. If we had not had the use of those bases off Eire in the last war we would have lost it.


Mr. MACDONALD (Halifax):: Mr. Chairman, like other speakers who have taken part in this debate I listened with great interest to the review by the minister of the activities of his department. I should like to congratulate him upon the excellence and clarity of his speech, and upon the record of the navy. The record of the Canadian navy in this war is an impressive one and one for which the minister is himself entitled to a great measure of praise. The principal base for the navy is Halifax and any one who has the slightest knowledge of the life of that great port must realize the great task being accomplished by the Canadian navy. As is well known, Halifax is the western terminus of the Atlantic lifeline. It is the control station for the north Atlantic. Throughout the war it has been the outlet for munitions and men. From that port have gone forth great convoys of ships.
One of the most critical phases of the war was the enemy attempt to sink shipping in the Atlantic and prevent our fighting men and supplies from reaching the other side. We have reason to be thankful that that attempt has not met with success. Only a few days ago it was announced that the shipping losses of the allied nations for the month of February were the lowest of any month since 1941. In the defeat of our enemies' attempt to sink shipping and in the successful anti-submarine activities on the Atlantic the Canadian navy took a leading part, the full story of which has not yet been told, It is one in which all Canadians might well take pride.
I wish to express my appreciation of the work done by the Department of National Defence for Naval Services at the dockyard and elsewhere in Halifax and Dartmouth. New buildings have been constructed; improvements and additions have been made, and we now have a thoroughly modern and well equipped naval base. One cannot but be struck with the transformation which has taken place since 1939. I have often thought how much farther we would be advanced to-day' in the task of defeating our enemies if we had had at the outbreak of the war the naval facilities which we now have in Halifax or any substantial part of the navy's present strength in personnel and in ships. The submarine menace would have been much sooner overcome; many precious lives would have been saved, and many valuable ships with their cargoes need not have been lost.

I commend the progressive and far-sighted policy of the navy in acquiring Tribal class destroyers by purchase. It is not without significance that destroyers of this class are designed for offence and not for convoy. Particularly do I commend the government for their decision to build this class of destroyer in Canada. The minister has told us that Tribal class destroyers are the best and fastest afloat. They are heavily armed: They carry as part of their armament 4-7-inch guns. One of this class of destroyer, H.M.C.S. Micmac, was launched at the Halifax shipyards last autumn. I am sure that the many thousands who saw that vessel proceed down the runways into the water must have hoped that she was the forerunner of many more which would be built in Halifax, and that the building of warships will continue to be a permanent and an indestructible industry in the life of that city.
A most important work being carried on by .he navy to-day is the repair of warships and naval craft. It has required the presence in Halifax of many thousands of naval personnel, most of whom are skilled tradesmen. They are engaged in work of the highest priority. It is work which is carried on night and day, seven days a week. The repair facilities of the dockyard and the ship repair yards in Halifax and Dartmouth are taxed to the utmost, and they will, I am sure, continue to be used to full capacity for many years after the war is over.	.
That which is of great interest and importance to the people of Halifax to-day is the continuance of the building of warships after the war. This raises the question of the role of the Royal Canadian Navy in peace time. The navy is now, I understand, constituted of over 250 fighting ships and over 80,000 personnel. Would the minister give the committee some idea what it is anticipated the strength of the navy will be in peace time, and also his view with respect to the continuance of the building of destroyers and other naval craft in Halifax when the war is over? It is true that the war is not yet won; and until it is, our maximum effort must be directed toward its successful and efficient prosecution. The time is come, however, when we are justified in giving some thought to post-war conditions and post-war planning. I realize that money costs and other factors will assume great importance when peace-time estimates for the armed services will be up for consideration in this house. The heavily burdened taxpayer will make his voice heard. I would not want, however, to think there is any possibility of the discontinuance of the building of warships in Halifax or in Canada because of false economy. The industry must

War Appropriation-Naval Services
not be endangered by a policy of centralization. Maritime industries must not have to close up because of their centralization elsewhere for purposes of economy.
I also hope that never again shall we allow our navy and the other armed services to dwindle into insignificance as they did at the termination of the last war. I would expect that a certain measure of navy, army and air force activity will continue in Halifax when the war is over. It will be little short of a calamity if, for instance, our dockyard, now modernized and at a high degree of efficiency, is allowed to fall into disuse.
It is not only the naval facilities of the city of Halifax which have been improved. New buildings have been constructed for army accommodation, and we have not far from the city limits, a well equipped and modern aerodrome which after the war will help to meet expanding air travel requirements.
There is another matter which I wish to bring to the minister's attention. A survey of housing conditions in Halifax has been commenced by E. L. Cousins, wartime administrator for Atlantic ports. He has been studying the problem for months. Questionnaires have been sent out to every man and woman in the city over the age of eighteen. They are asked to answer questions as to their occupation, their length of residence in the city, and also as to whether their wives or husbands are members of the armed services or the merchant marine. It is well known that the acute housing condition has created very difficult conditions in the city of Halifax. It is to the credit of her citizens that they have recognized that this situation has been caused by expanding war activities and that they have accepted it in the proper spirit. Of course there are always some to be found who for political or other purposes attempt to mobilize grievances arising out of these conditions and to capitalize the natural desire of the. people to return after the stress and strain of war to normal life. Happily they are few in number and they succeed in fooling no one but themselves.
Mr. Cousins, when announcing his proposed survey of conditions in Halifax, gave a statement to the press in which, referring to redistribution of population, he said:
The present condition of population congestion had, of necessity, to be dealt with, and in the first instance some relief provided in the form of redistribution of population.
From the viewpoint of prompt relief, the solution of the problem was not to be found in more housing accommodation. The time factor for construction during the winter period, in conjunction with the general material and artisan labour situation, did not permit it, 100-94
therefore it was necessary to request the cooperation of the R.C.A.F. and the army as to their assigning to the navy a portion of their hutment facilities. The rapid but necessary expansion of all the services, particularly the navy, has resulted in serious population congestion in Halifax, Dartmouth and vicinity, and some two months ago there were over 7,000 naval officers and ratings living out of barracks, plus some three thousand dependents in these areas.
As to the R.C.A.F. the number was 1,455, and for the army 1,277.
The R.C.A.F. officials kindly cooperated in turning over the major portion of their "Y" depot quarters to the navy. This transfer was made early in January of this year, with the result that on completion of this movement it will permit of housing some 3,000 officers and men of the navy. The officials of the army are also cooperating to the fullest extent in an endeavour to provide more barrack accommodation for officers and men, also the Merchant Seamen's Pool are cooperating as to the use of a portion of their facilities for general use, so. that in a reasonably short time we should be in the position of providing barrack accommodation for approximately 4,500 officers and men who were previously living out of barracks on subsistence allowance, thereby relieving the rooming-house congestion in both Halifax and Dartmouth.
I think Mr. Cousins' statement makes it clear that the acute housing situation which has developed in Halifax during the last year has in his opinion been occasioned primarily by the rapid expansion of the navy and the fact that arrangements were not made to provide adequate accommodation in Halifax for the greatly increased naval personnel in both officers and ratings.
I do not wish to be understood as passing strictures on those charged with the responsibility of running the navy. I fully realize that warships cannot be held up awaiting repairs, but ,1 would ask the minister whether the transfer of naval personnel of the "Y" depot, and other transfers proposed by Mr. Cousins, will be made and, if so, whether they will solve his housing difficulties in Halifax. I should like to know whether further construction is contemplated for the accommodation of officers and ratings now on subsistence.
The building programme now under way of the armed forces in Halifax is fast nearing completion, so that a supply of skilled labour will soon be available. I should like also to call the minister's attention to one other matter, namely the urgent need in Halifax for restaurant and recreation facilities for members of the services. A large dance hall and canteen is badly needed. Even more urgent is the need of restaurants. The serious situation that existed in Halifax has recently been aggravated through loss by fire of the Knights of Columbus hostel, which I hope



War Appropriation-Naval Services
will soon be replaced on a much larger scale and with much greater dining-room accommodation.
I would ask the minister to cooperate in any way he can in helping the Knights of Columbus war services to get the materials needed to complete the new building and hurry the work through. I realize that the Anzac building has been taken over by the Canadian War Legion services. This building has been remodeled and the Canadian War Legion will soon open a cafeteria. This will improve conditions to some extent but it will not fully meet requirements. I know that the three services are interested in recreation and restaurant facilities, but the navy has the greatest interest because of the very large number of naval personnel now on subsistence in Halifax. I should like the minister to deal with these questions before his estimates are disposed of.


Mr. ROSS (Souris):: May I add a word to what has been said as to the growth and development of the navy during these war years. The work they have done in convoying troops as well as food and munitions for the united nations has been remarkable and is something that Canada might well be proud of.
The minister pointed out that the most important obligation is the winning of the war. I suggest that the war may yet be far from won. I have been struck with the figures placed on Hansard, showing that from the most central of the prairie provinces, my own province of Manitoba, there has been an enlistment of over 6,200 officers and ratings. To me it is remarkable that these lads from the prairies should make the efficient sailors that they do. Many of them prior to enlistment had never seen a body of water apart from a prairie slough or creek. A number of these gallant lads from my own constituency have already made the supreme sacrifice.
The minister stated that with respect to those who will return home for demobilization and rehabilitation a directorate has been set up to study the problems of demobilization, rehabilitation and kindred matters and that they wild work with the officers of the other armed services and other departments such as the Department of Pensions and National Health. As I have pointed out on other occasions to the ministers of defence for the army and the air, and as I now suggest to the Minister of National Defence for Naval Services, many matters regarding those who are discharged from the armed services are still very unsatisfactory. I might mention, for example, clothing allowance. I repeat this, because I think it should be repeated. I assume that those discharged from the navy 
will be granted the same allowance as is given to those from the other armed services. I refer to mustering-out pay and general rehabilitation. May I repeat what I said to the other ministers and express the hope that the present minister, in cooperation with his colleagues, will have some improvement brought about for those under his department who may be discharged.' I submit that something ought to be done to improve matters with regard to clothing allowance, mustering-out pay, general rehabilitation and so on. These and other matters may be brought up under the various items, but I wanted to take this opportunity of saying something with regard to the many gallant youths who have gone into the navy from the prairies and the central part of Canada and who are doing such a fine job.


Mr. KINLEY:: Many have spoken from all sides of the house on this motion, which is supply for the Royal Canadian Navy. Members who have contributed to the debate come from all over the dominion and I am sure they represent public opinion generally. They all speak in praise and appreciation of the services and achievements of the Royal Canadian Navy. I am sure it must be pleasing to the minister and I think it is a tribute to him, as Minister of Defence for Naval Services, and also to Canada's navy. We in Nova Scotia have always admired ships and the men who go down to the sea. It is a part of our tradition and we meet it in our daily toil. While it would be expected that we would have every appreciation for the navy and its activities in war-time, I think it is most pleasing that it has caught the imagination of the whole of Canada as it has. It shows that we are becoming sea-minded. That will be a good thing for the maritime provinces in the future. Canada will depend upon foreign markets in the future. The sea is the road to the foreign market. The roads must be kept secure and open. While the navy is busily engaged at the present time in defending our shores and contributing to the work of the allied nations in winning victory, I am sure that it will be retained to do a good service when peace comes to this and other nations. Foreign trade depends to a great extent upon the navy. The navy maintains our prestige. It visits foreign ports. It carries our flag into all parts of the world. In the past we have depended upon the British navy. I am sure that Canada has received great benefit from the fact that our navy flew the white ensign and that it was associated with the British navy. But I think the time has come when we must do something for ourselves, and on our own, and I believe that one of the things we

War Appropriation-Naval Services
must be sure of is that Canada will have a substantial navy that is worthy of the traditions and of the efforts of this country in order that we may pursue our foreign trade, which will play such an important part in activities after the war.
It is nice to know that every part of Canada is interested in the navy. We down by the sea are particularly interested because, while the boys come from every part of Canada and every section of the country have contributed a splendid quota to the navy, yet we have the rendezvous of the men and the ships. We see them depart from our shores, and after performing their tour of duty at sea they come back and visit in our ports of Nova Scotia. Nova Scotia in the winter time is the only rendezvous, with the exception of Saint John, New Brunswick, for the Royal Canadian Navy, because of ice conditions on the Atlantic. Because of those conditions the southern and western coast of Nova Scotia is the only place where refitting can be carried on in* the winter time and where the navy can enter and depart without difficulties caused by ice.
The navy must be refitted. I think we are doing a splendid job there in keeping the navy in a fit condition for sea. The refitting of the navy is a highly technical job. A ship is a mechanized machine. It calls into play almost every feature of modern applied science. A ship must be kept in repair and seaworthy. Her power equipment is of many kinds and types. There are different designs and types of engines. The turbine engine, reciprocating engine, diesel engine, internal combustion engine, gasoline engine, the electrical equipment and the armament-all these demand technical skill and properly-trained men to operate and care for them. Then there is the auxiliary equipment, equipment for purposes of intelligence such as asdics, compasses, signals and all the things that go to make the ship an . effective weapon upon the sea. You must also provide for the accommodation of a lot of men. They are placed in rather close quarters on the ship. Their comfort must be looked after. They must be fed. Taken all in all, a ship is a highly technical machine that demands the highest training and men of skill and experience. We have in Nova Scotia at the present time schools where men are trained for the Royal Canadian Navy. I wish to refer particularly to one of those schools, a school that is known as His Majesty's Canadian Ship Cornwallis situate at Deep Brook on the Annapolis basin.
I have heard a lot of talk in this house about good- harbours. We all know that Halifax is a good harbour. We know there are good harbours on the Pacific coast; but I 100-94J
doubt, Mr. Chairman, if there is a place on the Atlantic coast more adaptable or more secure than the place where His Majesty's Canadian Ship Cornwallis is situated It is situate on tidewater just at the foot of the South Mountain in Nova Scotia. It has the South Mountain on one side and the North Mountain on the other side and it is on Annapolis basin, a beautiful sheet of water twenty miles in length, with adequate depth of water, protected on all sides from the sea and free from* ice in the winter time. The entrance to it is through what is known as Digby gut, a narrow neck of water. On both sides of it there is high land easily protected, making secure the naval base. Ships entering Annapolis basin must come up the reaches of the bay of Fundy, with the United States on one side, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick on the other side. The road to Annapolis basin would be a hazardous one for any enemy ship to undertake. I believe that Deep Brook, where His Majesty's Canadian Ship Cornwallis is situate is the most secure from the land, the air and the sea of any place I know of along the Atlantic coast. I am supported in this opinion by men of high naval training, men in the other branches of the services who have given it great consideration.
The places where ships are repaired in Nova Scotia are on the southern coast, and the port of Shelburne, the port of Liverpool, the port of Lunenburg, and the port of Halifax. The training station is across the province on the other side, protected by the equipment on the south shore; and while we on the south shore would have liked to see this station placed nearer to ourselves, I am sure that the navy was wise when they chose Deep Brook as the great naval training station in Nova Scotia. You know, Mr. Chairman, the French came here over two hundred years ago. Champlain and those other great French leaders chose Annapolis basin as their rendezvous when they first came to Canada when the explorers wanted safety. Apparently they knew what they were doing. To-day, at Annapolis, we have Fort Anne, built by the French, which is one of the show places of Nova Scotia. Only a few years ago there was revived what is known as the Order of Good Cheer, patterned after the association set up among the men who were with Champlain at Annapolis, and who passed the long winter evenings in association with each other. That organization has been formed as part of our tourist movement in Nova Scotia, and we invite all Canadians to join it.
I wish to say just a word, Mr. Chairman, about a company of men whom I think deserve the admiration of the people of Canada. A

War Appropriation-Naval Services
few months after the beginning of the war a band of Norwegians came to our shores. As you know, Norway is not a big country but it is a great country. Norwegians have sailed all over the world, and their fishing industry and merchant marine are worthy examples to all other nations. Their whaling fleet was in the south seas when war broke out. Naturally they were not permitted to return to Norway, and the admiralty directed them to the province of Nova Scotia. They first came with their ships to Halifax, but we thought they should be invited to make their headquarters in the port of Lunenburg, the largest commercial fishing centre in Canada, and so they came there and brought their ships with them. The first thing they did was to refit and rearm their ships, which was done in our ports; then they took their place with the Canadian and British navies in protecting the sea routes of the north Atlantic. They opened a training school, to which they brought men from all over Canada and the United States to train for the Norwegian navy. They were with us for nearly three years, during which they built a splendid barracks, which is now used by the Canadian naval service. These men were our fellow citizens for that length of time. They were superior men. They had followed the sea; they knew discipline, and their example was so good that perhaps we were a little envious when they first came to our port. Now they have headquarters in the United States; most of them are at sea and some bare made the supreme sacrifice.
The thought I should like to leave with the minister is that these men were making history for their country while they were in Canada, and in addition, while here, they formed an element in the defence of the coast of Nova Scotia. They were training for service with their own navy; they were more or less outside the circle of things in London and other places where Norwegians received more attention, and it seems to me that something should be done to commemorate their service to Canada and their sojourn in this country. If we have any typically Canadian decoration I think it should be given to those Norwegians, for they earned it by their courage, their discipline and their contribution to this country.
I am sure they enjoyed the hospitality of Nova Scotia, which is made more manifest as a result of the war and because of the admiration we always have for ships and sailors. When we said good-bye to these Norwegians we felt that we were losing good citizens. We believed they were men who would do a good job wherever they went. We hope that ere long 
they may return to their own country, freed from oppression, and help it once more to become a great marine nation.
I want to thank the minister and his department for several things they have done in the last few years that concern the people I represent. The deep-sea fishermen of Nova Scotia go one hundred, two hundred or three hundred miles out to sea. They go east of Newfoundland to the grand banks, the St. Pierre bank, the middle bank and off the coast of Nova Scotia, and they are subject to all the war-time hazards in addition to the hazards of the elements. Our men felt that the submarine danger was so great they were sure to be attacked; and while they were prepared to accept that as one of the hazards of their calling, they thought that to be left alone in a dory three hundred miles out to sea would put them in rather a hopeless position. They came to me, and with the assistance of the minister I was able to get the admiral of the fleet on the east coast to confer with them and arrange for a patrol, so that if they were torpedoed they would know where to find a place of refuge. They were also placed in a restricted area, where they could fish without fear of being run down by the convoys, and our fishermen expressed their great appreciation for the consideration they had been given by the navy. At another time while the navy was operating in St. Margaret's bay, a very deep and spacious body of water west of Halifax, during their training activities they destroyed some of the fishermen's nets. I suppose it was unavoidable, but we brought the matter to the attention of the navy, and they decided that they would so restrict their operations as not to interfere with the shore fishermen. In addition, an undertaking has been given that the nets which were destroyed will be paid for. Some of the fishermen have already been reimbursed for their losses, and I trust that in the near future the others will receive their money so that this spring they may be able to buy new nets in order to carry on their business.
We are also very much interested in the merchant marine. Nothing is too good for it. The merchant marine faces all the dangers that exist today without very much in the way of defence. It is true that these ships have guns with which they may protect, themselves to a certain extent, and I understand that there are two naval men on each ship, but the gun crew is composed of members of the merchant marine. Something has been said here about the merchant marine being forgotten. Well, an order in council was passed which for the first time, in war or in peace, placed the men of the Canadian merchant marine in the same
MARCH 14, 1944	[DOT]
War Appropriation-Naval Services
category as members of the armed forces with regard to pensions and with regard to any disability they might suffer by reason of war activities. May I tell the committee that from my own home town two schooners were sunk in collision because of wartime action. In one collision over twenty men were lost. The Department of Justice interpreted the statute liberally, so that the wives and families of those men are protected, and they are recognized as the dependents of men who have done a splendid service.
There are some who believe that the merchant marine should be put into uniform and be regimented, and they seem to think this would be an' easy thing to do. But we must remember that men of the merchant marine come from every quarter of the world. They are the men who assemble in seaports, wherever there are ships. They go from one port to another; and while I suggest that their services should be recognized, and that we should do anything we can in order to have their services recognized as those of first importance, yet it is difficult in connection with the merchant marine to regiment them the same as we would the personnel of the army, the navy or the air force.
Let me point out, too, that the air force has a considerable marine section. In our part of the country we continually see them in our harbours. We build them and they come there for refitting and reconditioning. The air force has a marine section which is very practicable, and doing a great service along our coast.
When we think of the merchant marine we immediately think of the Navy League. The Navy League of Canada is doing a splendid job for the men of the merchant marine. I am sure anyone who knows Halifax will have seen there the work the league is doing in the interest of seamen, and they will say, "God bless the Navy League." The ditty-bags given to the men at Christmas-time are all provided through the good offices of the Navy League. Our ladies receive letters back from the boys, and some of them say, "Your ditty-bag was the only present we got at Christmas. It was splendid. We thank you for it and we hope that your work will prosper."
In Nova Scotia we have a double duty, because the men of the navy are our guests when their ships come to port for repair. Every vessel must be in port a month to six weeks once every year to have repairs. We know that those boys are receiving a hospitality in keeping with their needs, because our people are most anxious that their morale
and their health shall be sustained both in the interests of our country and of the men themselves. The women along the coast of Nova Scotia work continuously for the navy, the air force and the other services. In my own town the Canadian Legion, a veterans' association, has done splendid work. At that point they have a big hostelry where the men of the navy and the other services are invited to come every night of the week. On Sunday nights they have sing-songs, and they have dances once a week. Ladies of the Imperial Order of the Daughters of the Empire are continuously working with the Navy League. They make sweaters and socks, and all those comforts the men require. Women's institutes and church organizations in Nova Scotia are contributing their share to the welfare of our men on our coasts. There are dances every week, which are properly chaperoned by the ladies of the town and are under the supervision of naval officers.
I say to the committee that, notwithstanding what has been said about other ports in Canada, down there life is clean and pure, and your boys are in a healthy atmosphere. Their parents can feel that they are well looked after, that they are behaving themselves and that they are a credit to Canada. Lunenburg is a naval base and repair port. Liverpool teems with activity, carrying out repairs for the navy. All hon. members know that Halifax is a great port, where all this work is carried on.
Then, with regard to the navy may I say that much of the work carried on below decks is not spectacular. Much must be done to a ship before she can sail the seas, or take part in that show which we all admire. While we may hear about a vessel when she is at sea, we must realize there are thousands of boys working in the construction and repair shops, and in special services of the navy, who are doing a good job of work. Were it not for them, most certainly the navy could not do its work.
As a member from Nova Scotia I believe I should emphasize the fact that while the navy and industry look after the equipment and refitting of ships, we have a special and personal duty to look after personnel from all parts of Canada who are in our ports. Jack ashore makes a lively scene in our community. There is something about the sea that brings out social characteristics one does not find anywhere else. Comradeship of the sea is generous, and it is liberal. It is international in its aspect. It goes all the way toward those who work on the sea, who face the elements and who fight battles in which there is no quarter. I am sure that down there that

War Appropriation-Naval Services
comradeship is so exemplified and so well carried out that while there might be some question of pollution existing in some of the congested parts of Canada, I can assure the committee that in the ports along the south shore of Nova Scotia life is clean, and everything is as it should be.
When we first started receiving these men from the navy I thought perhaps we were a little extravagant in providing washrooms, toilets and all those things men must have on the waterfronts in order to keep clean. But I changed my mind, because I concluded there is great need; nothing is too good for the health of those men, and we must see to it that they are kept clean and healthy. People come to me and say, "Oh, they are putting linoleums on ships. Look at the extravagance." I want to tell the committee that I have never seen a carpet in an air force or army mess, or a linoleum on a ship that was better than those we have in our homes in the town of Lunenburg. And if we can afford to have them in our homes, then surely the boys who go to sea in congested quarters, boys who are away from their homes and rendering service to their country are entitled to any little comfort they may get when they are off duty, when they are away from danger, or in a place where they may recuperate for the hard days ahead.
We in Nova Scotia are all for the navy because it is part of our life and traditions. We hope that it will be victorious and will continue to carry on. We hope, when peace comes, it will be one of our agents to promote our foreign trade and protect our dignity in other lands, to show the world in after years that Canada is a country that will be great upon the sea.


Mr. PERLEY:: Mr. Chairman, coming as I do from the prairies it is always interesting for me to listen to maritimers speak, particularly on a subject about which I am frank to say they do know something. But why should they not know more about shipping, naval affairs and the like than we who come from the prairies? The hon. member for Queens-Lunenburg (Mr. Kinley) is an exceptionally enthusiastic maritimer. Before he spoke this evening I asked him how long he expected to be because I was anxious to say just a word or two. He said he would be about fifteen minutes, but I notice that he took nearly forty minutes. However, when he referred to the purity, cleanliness and sweetness of the naval centres in the maritimes I did not mind him going on because so many of our boys and girls from the prairies are down there.

Before this first item passes I should like to take a moment or two to express my admiration for the men and women in the Canadian navy. On March 9 the minister gave us a most interesting review of his department and the Canadian navy. He detailed the part that it has played in the war up to date. All of us have a right to be proud of the facts he set out. We are proud of the most creditable showing the men and women of the Canadian navy are making. Many of these men and women knew nothing about naval affairs, but they joined this service from a sense of patriotism. The minister toid us that when war broke out we had only fifteen ships and some 1,700 men, whereas to-day we have over 600 ships and 75,000 men. He told us that he hoped to get another 12,000 this year, and I have no doubt he will. I know many of the young men and women of the prairies are enlisting in this particular branch of our services.
The minister put on the record the enlistments from the different provinces. Of course Ontario had the banner position, but on the basis of population I think the prairie provinces had a splendid record. Saskatchewan is perhaps the most inland of all provinces. In parts of that province there is not enough water to cover five or ten acres to a sufficient depth to float a rowboat. Many of the boys and girls in that province did not know what a rowboat looked like or whether it was going backward or forward. I am told that when those young men and women from the prairies arrived in Halifax they showed great enthusiasm for the training and made an excellent showing. I am proud to say that some have received commissions. One young man from my own home town is a sublieutenant, and there are many other officers from the prairies. Many of them are in the medical services on hospital ships in the Mediterranean and in every other theatre of war where a naval vessel is to be found.
When the figures of enlistments are broken down I think it will be found that my constituency, perhaps the most inland of any in Canada, has a splendid record. I could give the details of some of those who have enlisted from my home town and tell the committee where they are to-day, but I shall not take the time. Occasionally I meet some of them on the streets of Ottawa in the morning heading toward the naval building. They are fine looking chaps and we are proud of them.
The minister's department paid my constituency a compliment by naming a cargo vessel after a historical point there. Unfortunately that vessel was lost, and I hope that another one will be named after some other

War Appropriation-Naval Services
historical point. On March 9 the hon. member for Calgary West (Mr. Edwards) made an announcement. As reported on page 1339 of Hansard, he said:
I am particularly pleased this evening-I do not know whether the announcement has been made already, but it will be made to-morrow at the latest-that plans are completed and a contract awarded for the building of the new training ship Tecumseh at Calgary.
That was in his own city. I think he was a little premature in making that announcement because the minister did not confirm it, but he may be a little closer to the inner circles than some of the rest of us. I do not intend to make an announcement about anything that is going to happen in my constituency, [DOT]but on the Qu'Appelle lakes there is open water which I think would be as suitable for a vessel of this type as the city of Calgary.
We have had a lot of discussion on this item. This and the other items are going to pass. In the minister's estimates there is a reduction this year of some $79,000,000, although there are increases in certain items. No doubt there is a good reason for this. We are going to support these items because we are all behind the Canadian navy. We know the part it has played and will have to play in the winning of this war. We know what was done last year and the year before in clearing our coast-line of the submarine menace. We know what has been done in seeing that our merchant ships make a safe landing. I think this is one of the most important branches of our services and it will continue to play a most important part.
In conclusion, I join with other hon. members in praise of our men and women in the navy, and with the hon. member for Regina City (Mr. McNiven), who, speaking on March 9, following the minister, put on record a statement, in more detail than I care to do to-night, with respect to enlistments from the prairies and particularly from the district which he represents and which borders on mine. I may say that my constituency extends around the city of Regina, and when he speaks of Regina he is including a number of people from my own district. I associate myself with him in expressing admiration of these young men and women from the prairies. They have played and will continue to play an important part in the war. I am sure the minister will have no trouble in getting the men he requires next year. Many of them will come from our district, but I do not want him to take all the boys from the farms; let him leave a few there, because they arp needed. But he wfill get many from the prairies.


Mr. MacKENZIE (Neepawa):: There are
one or two questions I should like to ask the
minister, but may I first join those who have spoken in voicing appreciation of the glowing eulogy which he has paid to the Royal Canadian Navy, and in paying just tribute to the rapid expansion and the courageous and effective record of the naval forces during the present struggle.
I also join hon. members from the prairies in paying a deserved tribute to the boys and girls from that part of the dominion. It might be thought that we on the prairies, including Manitoba, are not especially aware of Canada's navy and of its wonderful record to date in this war; and it would not be surprising, taking into account our geographical position as the central and keystone province of the dominion, if our boys were not navyconscious. But if anyone has any doubt about whether our young people in Manitoba have answered the call of the sea during this war, he should examine the figures stated in the house by the minister on March 9, and to be found in Hansard at page 1309. He there gives the enlistments by provinces from September 1, 1939 to December 31, 1943. Strange as it may seem to the uninitiated, if those figures are compared and related to the population of the provinces according to the 1941 census, it will be found that the record of enlistments in the Royal Canadian Navy from Manitoba surpasses that of every other province, on a percentage basis, except Prince Edward Island and Nova Scotia.


John James Kinley: There are the merchant marine recruitments in Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island, too.


Frederick Donald MacKenzie: It is a
record to be proud of, and when one considers our geographical position., so far from the eastern and western shores, it is all the more remarkable. It is true that most of our young men and women are in the air force and in the army, and it is natural that they should be. Nevertheless the province as a whole has that splendid record of navy enlistment. Quite a number have joined up from my own constituency; in fact, one of my constitutents, Lieutenant Commander Robert Philip Welland, has been awarded the Distinguished Service Cross. The citation reads: "For courage and enterprise in action against enemy submarines while serving on loan to the Royal Navy." So that the province of Manitoba is enlisting naval men not only in large numbers, but of unsurpassed brains and morale.
I wish to thank the minister for having personally looked into and corrected the matter of income tax rates for a certain class of naval officers, one of them from my constituency.

War Appropriation-Naval Services
The training given boys in the navy is undoubtedly of a high order. When I was speaking the other day to a vocational training man of high standard who has conducted and observed the work of trades training in all the services, he gave it as his opinion that the navy training in trades was unsurpassed. I understand that the complete training programme is equally good.
The question I wish to leave with the minister is -this. In some countries, all young men have to do a certain amount of military training. Some people in Canada are looking forward to that very thing after the war Has the minister given any consideration to having all young men in this dominion undertake a certain amount of naval training in peace time?


Mr. RICKARD:: 
Mr. STIRLING:: Does the minister intend to reply to some of the points raised and the questions asked?

War Appropriation-Naval Services


Mr. WOOD:: Before the minister replies, I should like to say just a word or two. I have listened with a great deal of pleasure and pride to all hon. members who have taken part in this discussion as they have pointed to the achievements of men from their own parts of the country and the magnificent effort those men have made as members of our Canadian navy. I would be remiss if I did not call the attention of the committee to the fact that my own constituency has the honour of having produced Vice-Admiral Nelles, the man who is responsible for the'Splendid work our navy has done. I thought it was only within my rights, while others were emphasizing the great contribution that has been made by men from their own constituencies, that I should point out that the vice-admiral of our splendid navy comes from my own district, where he was born.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I may answer nowr some of the questions that have been asked in the last few days and I shall endeavour to answer them in the order in which they were put. The hon. member for Yale (Mr. Stirling) wished to know how many men would want to retire from the navy at the. end of the war. It is difficult to say at this moment how many men will wish to retire and how many men the navy may have permanently after the war. The present authorized complement of the Royal Canadian Navy, post-war, is between 8,000 and 9,000. That complement was authorized in 1941. That is the post-war complement, and various plans have been brought up by the staff at different times, suggesting other possible maxima and minima complements, but I am not able to say at this time what the post-war complement will be.


Grote Stirling: Since then two cruisers have been announced and two aeroplane carriers.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Yes. I hope, as many hon. gentlemen have hoped, that the complement will be reasonably adequate for a country the size of Canada and for the duties which the Canadian navy may be called upon to perform.
My hon. friend went on to ask whether the navy would take part in the Pacific war. That question is covered by the general statement made by the Prime Minister, that we were all in the war together as united nations and would all pursue it to the end. The Canadian navy, I should think, would play a part in the war against Japan.


Grote Stirling: If I may interrupt for a moment, there was another question with re-100-95
gard to rehabilitation, whether the minister plans to have training courses, or whether they will come in under the pensions and national health training scheme.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: That was another question asked by my hon. friend, whether the navy intended to have training classes for itself alone, as I understand, or its demobilized men, I assume-


Grote Stirling: For those about to be demobilized and desiring training, or whether they would come under pensions and national health.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Of course, any training of men after they are demobilized will have to come under the Department of Pensions and National Health. As to the training of men before demobilization, I think I can say to my hon. friend that at the present time practically the entire effort of the navy is directed to the winning of the. war. Forty per cent of the men are at sea, and in the type of ship we have, the smaller ship, there is not a very great opportunity for these men to take any courses of an educational nature beyond, of course, such training as they may acquire in the ordinary course of their duties. When the pressure of training eases, it is our hope that we can use a certain amount of the time, of some of the men at least, in training them for the postwar period. In that step we shall cooperate with the Department of Pensions and National Health, the Canadian Legion and those other groups that are interesting themselves in the educational welfare of the men of the armed services. We also plan, when we can spare the personnel from present operational duties, to institute a programme of vocational guidance or counselling for our men. I think I said the other night that we had a directorate of demobilization and at the head of it we had a reserve officer. We thought that would be the proper branch of the service from which to select an officer for such a task, because practically all the men demobilized will be from the reserve. This officer is at present out of Ottawa, proceeding around from place to place, talking to officers and ratings, endeavouring to study their problems and bring back to us suggestions for their solution.
My hon. friend asked whether entry in the R.C.N.-that is the permanent branch of the service-was now made from the volunteer reserve division, or whether there was any direct entry into the R.C.N. I may tell him that a man can come into the R.C.N. either directly or through the volunteer reserve



War Appropriation-Naval Services
division- My hon. friend then spoke about an advertisement which he had seen calling for certain types of ratings in the navy, namely, stokers and communication ratings. He wanted to know whether any others were needed. I would say to my hon. friend, yes. there are others needed, but the great need is for cooks, stewards, stokers and communication ratings. As I intimated to the house the other day, we plan to take into the navy in the next fiscal year some 12,000 personnel of all classes. That would include, of course, some ordinary seamen. Sometimes we need a certain type of rating and at other times another; and when we fill up the need we stop recruiting in that particular category. At the moment, however, cooks, stewards, communication .ratings and stokers are the types of ratings we need most.


Grote Stirling: Are they coming forward in satisfactory numbers?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: They are coming forward in reasonably good numbers, yes. We have to advertise for some of them and the divisions are constantly on the look-out for the types of men needed. [DOT]
The hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol) paid a well deserved tribute to the Navy League for its work. He paid a tribute to the founders of the league in this country, such as the late Sam Harris, Aemilius Jarvis and the present head of the navy, D. H. Gibson. With all that I agree. My hon. friend then wanted to know whether we were training Canadians to fly off aircraft carriers; that if we were to have carriers Canadians should be trained to fly off them. On that point I may -say to my hon. friend that we have not yet established a branch of what is called in Britain the fleet air arm, but there are certain Canadians who are doing naval flying in Great Britain. There has been an organization in Halifax known as H.M.S. Canada which did some recruiting of Canadians for the fleet air arm of the Royal Navy. Some seventy-six Canadians have gone into the Royal Naval Fleet Air Arm through H.M.S. Canada. There is also another way of getting into the fleet air arm, and that is by an arrangement under which we have agreed to lend to them a limited number of R.C.N.Y.R. officers for training and employment in air duties. We have agreed to give them thirty-two pilots, twenty-five observers and fifteen air engineer officers. These officers are already in the Canadian naval service or they will be taken into the service of the Canadian navy and then lent to the Royal Navy.
IMr. A. L. Macdonald.]


Mr. MacNICOL:: Before the minister leaves the fleet air arm possibilities, may I ask a question?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Yes.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The minister stated that some seventy-six young Canadians are being trained for the fleet air arm of the Royal Navy. At the present time some are being trained in the United States.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: No doubt, yes.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Where are they going
after they are trained?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: They would go back to the Royal Navy.


John Ritchie MacNicol: If, later on, Canada finds it necessary to have aircraft carriers is it possible that those young Canadians will be brought back?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I
would hope that that might take place, yes.


John Ritchie MacNicol: While they are in the Royal Navy, are they paid according to the Royal Navy standard, or is their pay supplemented by the difference between the Canadian rate and the British rate?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: As to those men who enter the Canadian navy and are then lent to the British navy, they would continue at the Canadian rate of pay, but I should assume that a man who joined the British navy directly, without going through the Canadian navy, would receive the British rate of pay just the same as a Canadian who went over to England before the war and joined the Royal Air Force. He is a member of the Royal Air Force and would get Royal Air Force pay.


John Ritchie MacNicol: When I asked the question before, I understood that the minister answered it by saying that they would be taken care of in every way, the same as if they had joined the Canadian service. Apparently that is not the case.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Those who joined the Royal Navy directly from here without passing through the Canadian navy would not be under our control. We would have no control over them, and I should assume that they would get-I shall look into the matter and make sure of it by to-morrow -Royal Navy rates of pay.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am informed that the
pay is much smaller than if they were in the Canadian navy; but with regard to the seventy-six mentioned by the minister, may I

War Appropriation-Naval Services
say they were all young lads, mostly university students. What I cannot get into my head is how they got into the fleet air arm department. I do not know whether they tried to enlist in Canada; but I believe they were all too young; at least I know some of them were too young to be admitted into the Canadian navy. In some way or other, however, they were enlisted into the Royal Air Force. How did that happen?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: There are, as the Minister for Air said in his speech several times, a good many Canadians in the Royal Air Force, Canadians who went directly into the Royal Air Force. Some of them went over before the war; some of them went over shortly after the war and joined the Royal Air Force directly. They stand in exactly the same position as a native of Britain would stand in that air force, I should think. They would be paid the British rates of pay. The same thing applies to those in the fleet air arm. If a Canadian, of his own accord, went to England and joined that branch of the service, without ever going through the Canadian navy, I think he would receive the British rate of pay, because we would have no control or jurisdiction over that person.


John Ritchie MacNicol: As I understand it, these young lads did not go to England to join the fleet air arm; somebody, either from England or representing the British Government in Canada, enlisted these young men directly out of university schools just a year ago, two or three years after the war broke out.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: If
*they enlisted directly from Canada they never passed through Canadian hands at all, so that I should think it would be very difficult for us to try to follow them and give them Canadian rates of pay. To begin with, we would not know who they were; we would have no record of them.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am trying to find out
by what method someone from Great Britain, or someone in Canada representing Great Britain, got these young lads out of the university schools.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I
am afraid I am not making myself very clear, but this is the .memorandum I xhave here. In the early days of the war, before the United States entered it, Admiral Bonham-Carter looked after the entry of Canadians who wanted to join the Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm. That was the beginning of the arrangement under which Canadians joined that branch of 100-951
the service. It is estimated that some seventy-six Canadians have entered the Royal Navy for air duties. These men who joined the fleet air arm- of the Royal Navy directly from civilian life would, I should think, have to accept the ordinary pay and other arrangements of the service which they joined. I do not think there is any question about that. I may tell my hon. friend, however, that some of those officers and ratings who joined the Royal Naval Air Service have since expressed a desire to transfer to the Royal Canadian Navy, and in some cases that has been done; they have come back and attached themselves to the Canadian navy. If, however, they have not done that, they will have to take British rates of pay, having joined a British service directly.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I appreciate very much
*the courtesy of the minister, but the matter still is not clear in my mind. The minister speaks of a time prior to that which I have in mind. The young lads to whom I refer were taken into the fleet air arm within, the last year or thereabouts. A number of them were attending schools in Toronto and elsewhere, and I am trying to find out how some authorities outside Canada could come into this country in 1943 and enlist these young men from our universities. Undoubtedly these lads wanted to join the fleet air arm, but I should like to know how it happened that they were taken right from under our very noses, one might say, and enlisted in the fleet air arm. Perhaps they might have been enlisted in our own air force.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: As
my hon. friend knows, in addition to this group of men to whom I have referred, some two thousand Canadian officers and; ratings are serving with the British navy on loan at the present time, so that it is not unusual for our people to find their way into the British navy. There was a period, though I am not sure just how long it lasted, in the early days of the war when the British wanted us to enlist certain types of young men for them; skilled radio men, for instance. Young men with a high degree of scientific skill and training in our universities were very much sought after by the British, and we allowed a certain number of them to be enlisted in that way in order to help the British meet the great problems facing them at that time. If my hon. friend would give me the dates he has in mind, the last dates on which this enlisting took place, I would be able to tell more definitely, but the total number involved, according to my figures, is only seventy-six who have gone in this way since the beginning.

War Appropriation-Naval Services


John Ritchie MacNicol: Into the fleet air arm?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Yes, directly into the fleet air arm.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Does that include the number who were enlisted last year?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: That is the number given me up to date. In addition, as I told my hon. friend, some others have gone in from the Canadian navy. We have a full record of those men; we know who they are and we know the number we are to furnish. We are to supply some seventy-two in all. They pass through our own divisions and establishments, and we know all about them.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I shall obtain more particulars and give the minister the information. Then he may be able to tell me what I am trying to find out, for I am afraid I have not secured the information in what I have been told so far.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Very well.


Mr. TUSTIN:: Are these young men who are enlisted in the fleet air arm trained in Canada or sent to England for training? I believe a number of these men are being trained in this country, though I am not sure whether they are Canadian or English boys.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I think there is some preliminary training done here for the fleet air arm. Kingston is one place where it is carried on, I think, and Aylmer is another; but the advanced training would have to be done outside Canada, some in England and some in the United States.


George James Tustin: Then any Canadian boys who enlist in the fleet air arm would be partly trained in Canada before leaving?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Yes, they may be trained here; it would depend upon where the British would want to send them. Probably most of them would be trained here.


Mr. GREEN:: Would the minister explain why Canada is not acquiring the two aircraft carriers, just as she is acquiring the two cruisers? Apparently we are merely manning the two aircraft carriers, and the ships and planes will still belong to Great Britain, while the pilots who fly those planes are to come from Great Britain, according to the minister's statement of March 9. Would he explain why we are not acquiring the ships and why we cannot man them completely?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: The question of acquiring the ships is bound up

with the whole question of lend-lease. That is a complicated and intricate business which would take a long time to explain. That is why we have not acquired the ships outright. The cruisers we are acquiring are British ships, built in Great Britain and controlled by the admiralty. They can do what they wish with them, but the aircraft carriers in question are not in that position. They were built in the United States and acquired by Great Britain, and then they were turned over to us. As I say, it is a matter in which the three countries are involved, and at the time this seemed to be the only arrangement we could make. However, the matter is still under consideration and it. is possible that some change may yet be made in that arrangement.


Howard Charles Green: Is it hoped that eventually Canada will acquire the two aircraft carriers?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I would hope that we might, but, as I say, we cannot acquire them without the consent of the other parties to the bargain; we have to secure that first,.


Howard Charles Green: Why can we not supply the pilots?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I do not think we have enough Canadian pilots to operate those two carriers. We might, by scouring the whole British fleet air arm, get enough. But I hope that some of the pilots which the British will put on those ships will be Canadians serving with that branch who, I am sure, would be glad to serve alongside Canadian naval officers.
The hon. member for Vancouver North (Mr. Sinclair) raised a question about the acoustic torpedo, and recent developments in German methods of attack. He praised the admiralty for the speed with which they had instituted counter measures against the acoustic torpedo. May I tell the committee that the Canadian navy has a scientific research branch which has been most active in this very field, andi which had anticipated and had begun studies before the attacks were made by the acoustic torpedo. Although this is the sort of subject which one cannot discuss in complete detail, I think I can say that the information given by our scientists to the admiralty was of considerable value in the establishment of these counter measures. I might say, too, that immediately the attack by the acoustic torpedo was made, an officer was flown from Canada to England to ensure that there would be a complete interchange of information between our department here and the admiralty. The result of this cooperation has been highly gratifying.

War Appropriation-Naval Services
The hon. member for Peterborough West (Mr. Fraser) asked if we were going to build carriers in this country for our navy. The answer to that is that there is no intention at the present time of doing so.
The leader of the opposition (Mr. Graydon) raised the question as to why the pay for women in the services was not equal to the pay for men, and ventured the hope that I would be able to be more generous than my colleagues in the two other services had been. The arrangements in the services are the same, namely the basic pay of women is eighty per cent of that of men. But the trades pay is the same. In the United States I understand the basic pay for women is exactly the same, while in Great Britain I believe it is two-thirds of that received by the men. So that we are in between the American and British systems.
My hon. friend wants to know why there is not equal pay for women. I do not know whether my colleagues have given these reasons, but the chief reason assigned for the difference in pay is that normally women are not employed in active combatant positions, nor are they trained for combat. In the strict sense, therefore, women cannot be said completely to replace fighting men.


Gordon Graydon: But of course there are some men who are not fighting men.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: That is true, and that is the argument made against what I have said. But the point is that every man is liable to go on active service. Even such men as paymasters, while employed at one point in one week, may in the next week be aboard ships on active service. The same applies to doctors, special branch officers and so on. Everyone is on active service and liable to be placed in a zone of danger. It would be difficult to divide the men to a point where we could say that one man is combatant-and another is not. I am giving the reasons which have been given to me.


Gordon Graydon: I imagine the minister is like me in that respect; probably he is pretty hard to convince.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: It might have been simpler from the beginning to have given them all the same rate of pay.


Gordon Graydon: I think they should have it, really.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: But there it stands, in that position. I do not wholly defend the discrimination against women, because there are many women working for us in clerical positions, women doing the work of coders, cipherers, signallers, and the like, who are certainly doing their work
just as well as it would be done by men. They are quite equal to men, and it is a hardship on them that they do not receive the same pay as do men working opposite them.


Gordon Graydon: Has there been a conference between the army, air force and navy officials respecting this matter? I think I see a more sympathetic glint in the minister's eye than I found in the case of the two other ministers who have charge of the other defence departments.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Perhaps just a touch of chivalry.


Gordon Graydon: Perhaps through his good offices he might persuade the other two. I believe I can see much more sympathy in the minister's atitude than I have seen thus far in the debate. My suggestion would be that when we have got this far perhaps we might go a little farther.	[DOT]


Angus Lewis Macdonald: That is a matter which would have to be settled by the three services. I would not, and neither would my colleagues, think of adopting a different scale of pay from that in the other services. But the matter has been considered at great length. We began, I believe, at the British rate of two-thirds, and we raised it to four-fifths. With good luck and generous hearts it might be that we would go even a little farther. But I cannot assure my hon. friend, still less members of the women's services, that that would happen. However, some progress has been made in the past, and it may be that more can be made in the future.


Gordon Graydon: I understand the door is not definitely closed, then.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Where I am concerned, the door is never closed. All these matters can be reconsidered.
The hon. member for St. Paul's (Mr. Ross), inquired whether the ship Toronto had been, commissioned. The answer is that that good ship is not yet in commission, but that she will be this year.'


Ernest Edward Perley: Since speaking about an hour ago I have been informed by the hon. member for Yale that an announcement was made to-day to the effect that a ship has been named the Qu'Appelle. I refrained from speaking at length when I spoke before, but I wonder if the minister would inform the committee as to the type of ship, and the reason for naming it thus? I believe the announcement was made in the radio news at one o'clock.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: My hon. friend referred to the Fort Qu'Appelle, which was sunk?

War Appropriation-Naval Services


Ernest Edward Perley: Yes.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I
shall give an answer before the committee rises, and shall ascertain that there is no confusion between names.
The hon. member for St. Paul's asked about Canadians serving with the Royal Navy and inquired whether they would receive pensions at Canadian rates. The Pension Act provides in effect that where the British act does not meet the case, full pensions will be paid by Canada. What we do is to make up the difference between the British rate of pension and the Canadian rate.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Is it proposed to have the service chevrons now used by the army adopted by the navy as well?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I believe' the regulation applies to all three services. I do not know that the navy was greatly in favour of the business, but they are entitled to wear chevrons.
The junior member for Halifax (Mr. Macdonald) raised the question about the role the Canadian navy would play in peace and what strength the navy would be. I believe I answered his questions when dealing with certain matters raised by the hon. member for Yale.
The hon. member then went on to ask whether destroyers would be built in Halifax and expressed the hope that this would be done after the war. Of course these post-war plans and projects are difficult to assess with accuracy at this time, but I can say that if there is to be a Canadian navy in the postwar period, there should be destroyers. I think the destroyer is the heart of the navy; whatever other type of ship you have or have not, you must have destroyers. I think they should be built in this country. There has been some criticism of the cost of building these destroyers in Halifax. Undoubtedly it has been greater than the cost in Great Britain, but these were the first two to be built in Canada and then Canada's wage rates are somewhat higher than those of Great Britain. However, I do not think we could ever hope to develop a navy in this country unless we Resorted to our own shipbuilding facilities for at least the greater number of the ships in that navy. I should think that destroyers will be built in Canada as long as there is a Canadian navy. Halifax seems to be the logical place for the building of destroyers. They have to put in there for repairs and refits, and in the winter months many other ports are denied to them. It seems to have the proper combination of building and repair facilities.
fMr. A. L. Macdonald.)
The hon. member made some inquiry about the transfer of naval personnel to the former air force barracks at Halifax. I am able to tell him that the transfer is proceeding and it has been found to be very helpful. I understand some 2,000 naval personnel have been transferred and this will help to relieve congestion in the city. My hon. friend wanted to know if we contemplated any additional building in Halifax. In the past, building in Halifax has been difficult on account of the great shortage of labour, and at the moment we have not in contemplation the building of any new barracks. Undoubtedly restaurant and recreation facilities are greatly needed, and I shall be glad to do anything I can to assist or to strengthen the hands of the auxiliary services and those others who are interested in the matter.
The hon. member for Qu'Appelle (Mr. Perley) referred to the freighter which unfortunately was lost, but I am glad to be able to say to him that there is a fine destroyer
called the Qu'Appelle which we have acquired from the British navy.


Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: I asked about the naval disposal committee.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: My hon. friend's question was about the arrangements made for salvage and disposal.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I wanted more details about naval order 3444. I wished to know whether tenders were called for.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: There is at naval headquarters a disposal committee, of which one of the officers of the stores branch is the chairman. At each base there is a subcommittee which deals with the question of salvage and disposal and which reports to the headquarters committee. My hon. friend wanted to know why they had to refer matters to headquarters.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I
wanted to know if tenders were called for in connection with the disposal of these goods, and I should also like to know just what is disposed of. Would this not come under the new disposal committee set up under munitions and supply?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: It does. The fact is that the naval services disposal committee authorized by naval order 3444 is a collecting body to determine what assets are surplus to our requirements. The chairman of that committee is the deputy chief of naval equipment and supply, Mr. L. C. Thompson, who was formerly manager of

Mexico Embassy
stores, Canadian National Railways. This committee is made up of representatives of all the branches which have anything to do with buildings or properties or ships or naval ordnance or stores of any description. At each base there is a small counterpart set up. The naval services disposal committee is not empowered to effect any sale of surplus assets; this must be done by the committee under the jurisdiction of the Department of Munitions and Supply. The committee of which Mr. Thompson is chairman reports any surplus through the deputy minister to the crown assets allocation committee, after having first offered the surplus to the army and air force. It often happens that a thing which is surplus -with us is needed by the other services. Similarly, the local committees of other places have no power to dispose of surplus assets by tender or otherwise.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I
should like to ask a few more questions.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: On the next sitting day.
Progress reported.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned until Thursday at 3 o'clock p.m., pursuant to special order made Monday, February 21, 1944.
Thursday, March 16, 1944