1944-03-02

FIFTH SESSION-NINETEENTH PARLIAMENT 8 GEORGE VI, 1944 VOLUME II, 1944 COMPRISING THE PERIOD FROM THE SECOND DAY OF MARCH, 1944, TO THE SEVENTEENTH DAY OF APRIL, 1944, INCLUSIVE BEING VOLUME CCXL FOR THE PERIOD 1875-1944 INDEX ISSUED IN A SEPARATE VOLUME OTTAWA EDMOND CLOUTIER PRINTER TO THE KING'S MOST EXCELLENT MAJESTY 1944 CANADA

[Stage Direction]
i>ouSe of Commons debates
[Stage Direction]
Thursday, March 2, 1944


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister) moved:: That the name of Mr. Factor be substituted for that of Mr. Gladstone on the war expenditures committee.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
PETITION FROM '*LA SOCIETE SAINT-JEAN BAPTISTE DE QUEBEC" PROTESTING AGAINST ANY IMMIGRATION
On the order for motions:
Mr. WILFRID LaCROIX (Quebec-Montmoreney) (Translation): Mr. Speaker, I wish to submit to the House of Commons a petition from the "Societe Saint-Jean Baptiste de Quebec", bearing a total of 162,889 signatures and directed to the honourable members of the House of Commons in parliament assembled. The said petition strongly protests against any immigration, demands that the strict enforcement of immigration bans be continued, opposes the issuing of special or discretionary permits for admission into this country, and lastly, urges the Canadian government to take whatever action may be necessary with a view to preventing any immigration into this country.
Here is one set of petitions from the city of Quebec, bearing 42,421 signatures; one from the county of Kamouraska with 9,006 signatures; one from the county of Mont-magny with 7,049 signatures; one from the county of Megantic with 9,147 signatures; one from the county of L'lslet with 7,654 signatures; one from the county of Quebec with 11,084 signatures; one from the county of Beauce with 18,976 signatures; one from the county of Montmorency with 4,279 signatures; one from the county of Dorchester with 9,282 signatures; one from the county 100-66
of Lotbiniere with 6,190 signatures; one from the county of Levis with 11,555 signatures; one from the county of Portneuf with 11,410 signatures; one from the county of Riviere du Loup with 5,141 signatures; one from the county represented by the genial member for Bellechasse (Mr. Picard) with 7,168 signatures, and many others.


[Stage Direction]
Mr. ROBERT FAIR (Battle River) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 8, to amend the Dominion Elections Act, 1938.
He said: Paragraph (k) subsection 2 of section 14 of the Dominion Elections Act, 1938, reads as follows:
(k) in any province, every person who is an inmate of an institution which is maintained by any government or municipality for the housing and maintenance of the poor, if such person is by the law of that province disqualified from voting at an election of a member of the legislative assembly of that province, and did not serve in the military, naval or air forces of Canada in the war of 1914-1918.
I contend that this disqualification should not be in the elections act of any democratic country, and the purpose of this bill is to have that particular clause removed before the next election.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk)

Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: 1.	What are the names and addresses of the 14 major steel yards, as mentioned in Votes and Proceedings, Wednesday, 2Gth January, 1944, page 776, building ships, in Canada?
2.	What are the names and addresses of the five smaller steel yards, as mentioned in Votes and Proceedings, Wednesday, 26th January, 1944, page 776, building ships in Canada?
3.	What are the names and addresses of the 62 shipyards building wooden ships in Canada, as mentioned in Votes and Proceedings, Wednesday, 26th January, 1944, page 776?

Questions

4.	What are the names and addresses of the outfitting yards, as mentioned in Votes and Proceedings, Wednesday, 26th January, 1944, page 776?
5.	How many of these companies are government owned?
6.	If privately owned, what are the names of the companies, and * what are the names of the directorates of each company?
7.	Does it cost more to build a ship of the 10,350-ton class in a government-owned plant than in a privately-owned plant?
8.	Does it cost more to build a ship of the 4,700-ton class in a government-owned shipbuilding plant than in a privately-owned plant?
9.	What is the differential in total cost (including extras) between ships constructed in government-owned yards or plants and in privately-owned yards or plants for ships, (a) of 10,350-ton class; (b) of 4,700-ton class?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: 1.	It is not in the public interest to give the
specific location of Canada's shipyards. The answers to this question denote the province only where such shipyards are located:
Yarrows Limited, British Columbia.
Canadian Vickers Limited, province of Quebec.
Davie Shipbuilding & Repairing Co. Ltd., province of Quebec.
Geo. T. Davie & Sons Ltd., province of Quebec.
Morton Engineering & Drydock Co. Ltd., province of Quebec.
Port Arthur Shipbuilding Co. Ltd., Ontario.
The Collingwood Shipyards Limited, Ontario.
Midland Shipyards Limited, Ontario.
Toronto Shipbuilding Co. Ltd., Ontario.
Kingston Shipbuilding Co. Ltd., Ontario.
Halifax Shipyards Limited, Nova Scotia.
Government-owned outfitting yard operated by Anglo-Canadian Pulp & Paper Mills Ltd., Shipbuilding Division, province of Quebec.
Government-owned outfitting yard operated by Carter-Halls Aldinger Co. Limited, Ontario.	[DOT]
Government-owned outfitting yard operated by Canadian Comstock Co. Limited, New Brunswick.
Note; A government-owned company, Quebec Shipyards Limited, supervises the Morton Engineering & Drydock Company, Geo. T. Davie & Sons Limited, and the government-owned outfitting yard operated by Anglo-Canadian Pulp & Paper Mills Ltd., shipbuilding division, in the province of Quebec.
2.	Canadian Dredge & Dock Co. Ltd., Ontario.
Canadian Bridge Co. Ltd., Ontario.
Central Bridge Co. Ltd., Ontario.
Russel Bros. Ltd., Ontario.
Montreal Drydock Co. Ltd., province of Quebec.

3.	Canadian Fairbanks-Morse Co. Ltd., Nova Scotia.
M.	R. Chappell, Nova Scotia.
Clare Shipbuilding Co. Ltd., Nova Scotia.
H.	Clarke, Prince Edward Island.
Eastern Woodworkers, Nova Scotia.
J.	Etherington, Nova Scotia.
Foundation Maritime Limited, Nova Scotia. Industrial Shipping Ltd., Nova Scotia.
J.	D. Irving & Co., New Brunswick. Leblanc Shipbuilding Co. Ltd., Nova Scotia.
K.	MacAlpine & Sons, Nova Scotia.
W. C. McKay & Sons, Nova Scotia.
S.	G. Mason, Nova Scotia.
McMulkin & Sons & Ashley Coulter, New Brunswick.
Palmer & Williams, Prince Edward Island. Walter Pinaud, Nova Scotia.
S.	S. Rafuse, Nova Scotia.
Shelburne Shipbuilding Co. Ltd., Nova Scotia.
Silver's Agencies Ltd., Nova Scotia.
Smith & Rhuland, Nova Scotia.
J. A. Urquhart, Nova Scotia.
Vaughan Shipbuilding Co. Ltd., New Brunswick.
Wagstaff '& Hatfield, Nova Scotia.
Laurent Berger, province of Quebec. Canada Plycraft, province of Quebec. Chantier Maritime du Sti Laurent Ltee., province of Quebec.
J. A. Doucet, province of Quebec.
F. X. Lachance, province of Quebec.
Les Canots Cadorettes, province of Quebec. Bordeur Bros. & Gould, Ontario.
Dawson Boat Works, Ontario.
Duke Boats, Ontario.
Gordon Boat Works, Ontario.
J. A. Grant & Sons, Ontario.
Greavette Boats Ltd., Ontario.
Grew Boats Ltd., Ontario.
Howard Furnace & Foundries Ltd., Ontario. Hunter Boats, Ontario.
W. J. Johnson, Ontario.
MacCraft Co. Limited, Ontario.
McCall & Company, Ontario.
Midland Boat Works, Ontario.
Minett Shields, Ontario.
Morris Boat Works, Ontario.
Norse Boat & Ski, Ontario.
S.	H. Perry & Sen, Ontario.
Port Carling Boat Works, Ontario. Peterborough Canoe Co., Ontario.
Rice Lake Boat Works, Ontario.
C. Richardson, Ontario.
J. J. Taylor & Sons, Ontario.
Armstrong Bros. Ltd., British Columbia. Beach Avenue Shipyards, British Columbia. A. C. Benson, British Columbia.
Dominion Construction Co., British Columbia.

Questions
McKenzie Barge & Derrick Co. Ltd., British Columbia.
Newcastle Shipbuilding Co. Ltd., British Columbia.
Prince Rupert Drydock Co. Ltd., British Columbia.
Star Shipyard (Mercer's) Ltd., British Columbia.
Vancouver Shipyards Ltd., British Columbia. Victoria Motor Boat Co. Ltd., British Columbia.
A.	J. Jones Ltd., British Columbia.
4.	Government-owned outfitting yard operated
by Anglo-Canadian Pulp & Paper Mills Ltd., Shipbuilding Division, province of Quebec.
Government-owned outfitting yard operated by Carter-Halls Aldinger Co. Limited, Ontario.
Government-owned outfitting yard operated by Canadian Comstock Co. Limited, New Brunswick.
5.	Assuming that "these" refers to the yards
spoken of in Question 1, the answer is: Four, as follows:
Toronto Shipbuilding Company Limited, Ontario.
Quebec Shipyards Limited, province of Quebec, supervising the operations of Morton Engineering & Drydock Company, Geo. T. Davie & Sons Ltd,, and the outfitting yard operated by Anglo-Canadian Pulp & Paper Mills Limited, Shipbuilding Division. Government-owned outfitting yard operated by Carter-Halls Aldinger Co. Limited, Ontario.
Government-owned outfitting yard operated by Canadian Comstock Co. Limited, New Brunswick.
6.	All other companies are privately owned.
Names of directorates of each company are not known.
7.	From such tentative figures as are available, it appears that the most expensive ship at United Shipyards Limited exceeded the cos,t of the most expensive ship in any of the privately-owned yards. Also it appears that later ships at United Shipyards Limited are not costing more than the cost in some privately-owned yards. See also the minister's statement on ship costs, pages 759, 760 and 761, daily Hansard of February 22, 1944.
8.	Three yards have been building 4,700-ton ships. Two of these are privately-owned and operated and in the case of the third, the plant is owned by the government but operated by a private company on a fee basis. From tentative figures available it
100-66J
appears that the costs in the government-owned plant are higher than in the other two yards. We have reason to believe that later ships in the government-owned yard will not cost more than ships built at the same date in the privately-owned yards. It should be considered that the company operating the government-owned plant on a fee basis is producing these 4,700-ton ships in about one-half the number of days taken by the other two yards. See also the minister's statement on ship costs, pages 759, 760 and 761, daily Hansard, February 22, 1944.
9.	The differential cannot now be determined. See answers to questions 7 and 8.
Note: It should be noted that the first six questions asked refer to Votes and Proceedings, page 776, dated the 26th of January, 1944, and have reference to yards employed on naval work only, and do not include any of the yards employed on cargo work. In the Votes and Proceedings the 14 yards are specifically mentioned as presently engaged on naval ships.
Questions 7, 8 and 9 refer to cargo ships being built in other yards, some of which, are government-owned.


WHEAT USED BY MILLERS
Mr. ROSS (Souris):: 1.	How many bushels of wheat were used by millers of Canada during each of the years 1942 and 1943?
2.	What was the actual cost per bushel to the miller?
3.	What amount per bushel was taken care of by government subsidy in each year?
4.	What is the government subsidy at present allowed per bushel for wheat used by millers?


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: 1.	1942-93,134,762 bushels; 1943-108,448,431' bushels.
2.	No information.
3.	Per bushel amount by months:
Crop year 1942-43 Spring wheat Durum wheat
	Cents per bu.	Cents per bu.
August	
HI	IlfSeptember ...	
12*	14*October	
12|	178November ...	
13*	18|December	
134	13fJanuary	
134	188February 	
134	264March 	
194	374April 	
21|	314May	
218	328June	
244	328July 	
314	36|
Questions

Crop year 1943-44 Spring wheat Durum wheat Cents per bu. Cents per bu.
August	
33|	41iSeptember	
388	468October	
468	52iNovember	
478	528December	
478	52|January	
478	52|
The above per bushel amounts are based upon the excess of the monthly average prices of No. 1 northern and No. 1 C. W. durum wheat in store Fort William-Port Arthur over the domestic ceiling price of 77| cents per bushel. Payments have been made on 35,559,570 bushels of spring wheat and on 1,064,489 bushels of durum wheat in the 1942-43 crop year, and on 25,752,384 bushels of spring wheat and on 510,956 bushels of durum wheat to date in the 1943-44 crop year, with the January, 1944, payments still incomplete.
4.	For spring wheat-478 cents per bushel. For durum wheat-528 cents per bushel.


Mr. TUSTIN:: 1.	On what date did the wartime prices and trade board freeze the price of honey?
2.	At what price wras a ceiling placed on honey ?
3.	On W'hat date did the wartime prices and
trade board raise the price of honey by three *cents?	. .
4.	Was the importation of bees prohibited, and if so, during what period, and what was the date of the order of prohibition?
5.	By whose order and on whose advice were [DOT]containers of rationed honey fixed at six ounces?
6.	Has it been the custom of producers of boney to use 16-ounce containers, or multiples thereof?
7.	Is it the intention of administrators of the wartime prices and trade board to discourage the sale of honey to consumers by producers?


Mr. ABBOTT:: 1.	Ceiling prices were established for honey:
(a)	on December 1, 1941, except for sales made by primary producers to dealers, which sales were exempt from this ceiling.
(b)	on September 14, 1942, by an order of the board, maximum prices were established [DOT]covering all sales of honey.
This order was replaced by a subsequent order effective June 21, 1943.
2.	Board orders No. 182 and No. 286 established a maximum wholesale price of:
(a)	12| cents per lb. on extracted honey sold in bulk, and
(b)	14 cents per lb. on pasteurized honey.
3.	There has been no increase in the price of honey in bulk as set out in the board's
IMr. J. A. MacKinnon.}
orders. Under the board's order, the maximum retail price to be charged by primary producers of bulk honey is the maximum wholesale price plus a mark-up of not more than 3 cents per lb.
4.	No.
5.	Extracted honey was included in the preserves ration by the wartime prices and trade board at 6 fluid ounces per coupon effective September 2, 1943.
Effective September 20, 1943, this coupon value was raised by the board to 12 fluid ounces, a level which was regarded as being satisfactory to move the balance of the crop available to be sold. (A substantial part of the crop had been sold before rationing began.) For the coming year when all of the honey crop will be subject to rationing, the coupon value has been established at 24 fluid ounces.
6.	Yes.
7.	No. Both the ceiling price regulations and the rationing regulations established by the Board have made adequate provision for direct producer-consumer sales. (See answers to questions 3 and 5).


CANADIAN AVAR RECORDS OFFICE
Mr. ROSS (Souris):: 1.	Who was O.C. Canadian war records at Ottawa, January 1, 1940?
2.	Who is now O.C. Canadian Avar records at Ottawa?
3.	What was his previous address?
4.	What was his previous Avar record?
5.	How many men are employed on war record staff?
6.	How many of this staff enrolled under National Resources Mobilization Act?
7.	Hoav many of these have been 0ATerseas on active service?


Mr. MACDONALD (Halifax):: 1.	A/Lieutenant-Colonel (now Colonel) W. E. L. Coleman, M.C., Y.D.
2.	A/Colonel C. L. Laurin, O.B.E., E.D.
3.	A/Colonel C. L. Laurin, O.B.E., E.D., O.C., 1st Airfield Defence Battalion, Canada.
4.	District Record Officer, M.D.4, 5-9-39 to
30-3-40.
D.A.A.G., M.D.4, 31-3-40 to 15-12-40.
D.A.A.G., N.D.H.Q., 16-12-40 to .7-7-41.
A.A.G., N.D.H.Q., 8-7-41 to 13-7-42.
O.C., Regiment de Chateauguay, 14-7-42 to 18-7-43.
Awarded O.B.E., June, 1943.
O.C., 1st Airfield Defence Bn., 19-7-43 to 13-10-43.
Director of Records, 15-10-43 to date.

Questions
5. Officers			.. 25
Other ranks			.. 295
Civilians (male)....		.. 39
		359
6. 36 Other ranks.		
7.	War	Present
	1914-18	war
Officers 	... 13	9Other ranks	... 48	10Civilians	1*	61	20Note-Of the total, 5	Officers and 1 Other	rank have served overseas in both	wars.


ESQUIMAU DOCK YARD-POLE LINE DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM
Mr. MacINNIS:: 1.	Is there a pole line distribution system being installed in the naval dockyard at Esquimalt, British Columbia?
2.	If so, when was the work commenced?
3.	What is the cost of the work done, (a) material; (b) wages, from time of commencement to date?
2.
R. C. Brown .... D. A. Campbell F. A. Clendenning Paul L. Farnalls Lew Hutchinson . Jas. A. McCowan Fred Pettypiece .
R. C. Reece ....
J.	Theo. Roy ___
A. C. Reid	
J. H. Wesson ....
3. On the occasion of each meeting.
Mr. MACDONALD (Kingston City);
1.	Yes. A contract was arranged by the Department of Munitions and Supply with the B.C. Electric Company to bring a power line to the dockyard together with the supply of necessary transformers. Thie dockyard authorities are completing the. necessary distribution system in the dockyard with dockyard employees and material purchased through Munitions and Supply.
2.	10th March, 1943.
3.	(a) 847,933.51; (b) $6,945.60 (these figures include the contract above mentioned).


WHEAT BOARD-ADVISORY COMMITTEE
[Stage Direction]
Mr. PERLEY;
1.	How many meetings did the advisory committee to the Canadian wheat board hold during the year 1943, and where?
2.	What remuneration and expense allowance was paid to each member for such meetings?
3.	How often did the said committee meet with the Canadian wheat board officers during the year 1943?
Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: 1.	Four; two meetings in Winnipeg, one meeting in Regina and one meeting in Ottawa.
Honorarium Subsistence Travelling Total
$ 160	$ 160	$ 141.05	$ 461.05-	110	345.89	455.89190 .	190	182.30	562.30220	220	256.45	696.45260	260	342.30	862.30180	180	200.95	560.95190	190	293.74	673.74100	60	126.70	286.7060	60	142.43	262.4380	158.45	238.45130	110	191.70	431.70$1,490	$1,620	$2,381.96	$5,491.96


AUDITOR GENERAL'S REPORT-REMISSIONS TO INSURANCE COMPANIES
[Stage Direction]
Mr. KNOWLES;
For what reasons were amounts totalling $3,400 remitted to insurance companies, as indicated in item 29, on page 11 of the auditor general's report for 1942-43?
Mr. ABBOTT; Under the insurance acts of the dominion, annual statements are required to be filed by registered companies with the Department of Insurance not later than
March first in each year, and a penalty of ten dollars is incurred for each day's default in compliance.
Since the outbreak of war, many companies, principally those with head offices overseas, have found it impossible, by reason of interrupted communication systems and shortage of man-power, to file their statements on time and penalties incurred have been remitted by order in council.
The amount of $3,400 was remitted to twenty-six companies.
Questions

Mr. KNOWLES:: Has adjustment or explanation been, made with reference to a profit of 40 per cent on cost ns disclosed by the cost audit on the contract referred to in item 163 on page 50 of the nuditor general's report for the year 1942-43?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: Yes.



OIL CONTROL-RENTAL OF SPACE IN SAINT JOHN

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: 1.	What space, if any, has been rented by the oil control, Department of Munitions and Supply, from J. Clark & Son, Limited, in the city of Saint John or elsewhere in the province of New Brunswick?
2.	What rent is being paid for each such space, and what are the rental terms with respect to area, time, termination of rental *contracts, improvements, heating, alterations and other like conditions?
3.	Specifically, have the premises at 28 Germain street, Saint John, been rented from this company? If so, give full particulars of all material points of this contract.


Mr. FOURNIER (Hull):: 1.	The Department of Public Works leases from J. Clark & Son, Limited, for the oil controller of the Department of Munitions and Supply, space on the ground floor of building at 28-32 Germain street, Saint John, N.B.
2.	Rent-$1,860 per annum. Floor area- 2,500 sq. ft. Term: From April 1, 1943, until cessation of hostilities and thereafter on a monthly basis. Lessor attends to all repairs,
taxes, water rates, and provides heating, cleaning of windows and toilet accommodation. Crown pays for lighting and cleaning.
3.	See answers to Nos. 1 and 2.



RAILWAYS


Mr. POULIOT:: How many soldiers have been used, (a) by the Canadian National Railways; (b) by the Canadian Pacific Railway, for the development, operation and maintenance of said railways, by virtue of an order in council made public In November, 1943?


Mr. MICHAUD:: (a) 246; (b) 282.



MOTOR VEHICLES-LICENCES AND GASOLINE RATIONING

Mr. REID:: 1.	What was the number of motor licences issued in each province for the fiscal year 1943, for, (a) passenger cars; (b) commercial vehicles; (c) farmer's trucks?
2.	What number of ration cards for gasoline have been issued during the present fiscal year and up to December 31, 1943, in each province, giving the number issued in categories A, B, C, D, E?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: 1.	The issuance of motor licences is a provincial jurisdiction and the number is not known to the department.
2.	To December 31, 1943, gasoline ration books had been issued for the fiscal year 1943-44 in each province in the following categories.
* AA	Cars on	Com-A	B	C	D	E	A.R.P.	W.I.T.*	mereialAlberta	. 37,064	42,445	11,736	1,083	237	173	35,346British Columbia...	. 75,502	15,456	6,882	1,654	416	292	237	8,635	27,717Manitoba 	. 32,918	24,196	12,416	1,447	357	339	24,846New Brunswick ...	. 13,081	11,124	1,942	721	337	375	43	9,573Nova Scotia 	. 26,182	12,472	1,984	1,207	515	312	2	4.029	17,805Ontario	. 405,383	140,867	54,470	6,593	1,556	1,149	1,879	31,971	95,766P.E.I	. 1,945	3,897	292	89	23	22	1,883*Quebec 	. 103,205	46,069	20,790	6,036	928	652	541	5,788	47,434Saskatchewan	. 37,013	47,214	4,829	440	156	90	2,506	39,390Total.	. 732,293	343,740	115,341	19,270	4,525	3,404	2,702	53,929	299,760
* Wartime Industrial Transit.


Mr. MACDONALD (Halifax):: 1.	Yes, a building for physical training, gymnasium and swimming pool.
2.	(a) Anglin Norcross Maritime Limited, Montreal, P.Q. Following is an extract from
P.C. 10774 dated 26th November, 1942, "that in view of the close relation of this additional work to the work already being carried out at the site by the present contractor, it is
IMr. Abbott.]



WELLINGTON BARRACKS, HALIFAX-GYMNASIUM

Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: 1.	Has a gymnasium been provided at Stadacona, Wellington barracks, Halifax, Nova Scotia?
2.	If so, (a) what are the names of those who tendered for this work; (b) to whom was -contract let, and for what amount; (c) what is the size of the building and type of construction; (d) time for completion; (e) estimated cost complete with equipment?

Questions
considered that such additional work can best be performed by the present contractor and that it is not practicable to call for tenders; that the contractor has accordingly been asked to quote on the additional work, and has submitted prices as follows." Copy of P.C. 10774 appears below.
(b)	Anglin Norcross Maritime Limited, Montreal, P.Q., in the amount of $638,000 to be considered as a ceiling price as per P.C. 10774.
(c)	Size of the building is 130' x 207' on side of which is swimming pool building 84' x 154'. Type of construction-concrete base with full brick wall which conforms with standard of building codes of Canada.
(4) Commencement date 1st March, 1943, estimated completion date 1st June, 1944, 76 per cent complete as at 15th February, 1944.
(e) Estimated cost complete without equipment $638,000. Cost of equipment, $7,582. Total estimated cost complete including the equipment, $645,582. The estimated cost of the equipment has not been approved and is subject to further review.



P.C. 10774

[Stage Direction]
Certified to be a true copy of a Minute of a Meeting of the Committee of the Privy Council, approved by His Excellency the Governor General on the 26th November 1942.
The Committee of the Privy Council have had before them a report dated 26th November, 1942, from the Minister of Munitions and Supply representing that Order in Council P.C. 5051 of July 9, 1941 and subsequent amendments thereto, authorized entry into a contract, at a ceiling price of $5,342,015.00, with Anglin-Norcross Maritime Limited, Montreal, P.Q., covering the construction of certain buildings at the Naval Training Centre, Nelson Barracks, Halifax, N.S., required by the Department of National Defence (Naval Services);
That the Department of National Defence (Naval Services) has now requested the department to arrange for additional construction work necessary as a result of a. decision to expand the said training centre, consisting of: (1) alterations to signals and asdic building; (2) guard house; (3) workmen's camps; (4) changes in power substation; (5) C.P. & P.O. building; (6) physical training centre; (7) additional sewer, water and road facilities; (8) additions to Block "A".
That in view of the close relation of this additional work to the work already being carried out at the site by the present contractor it is considered that such additional work can best be performed by the present contractor and that it is not practicable to call for tenders;
That the contractor has accordingly been asked to quote on the additional work, and has submitted prices as follows:
(1)	Alterations to signals and
asdic building	 $ 80,743 00
(2)	Guard house	 106,088 00
* (3) Workmen's camps	 225,000 00
(4) Changes in power substation	 8,250 00
(8) Additions to Block "A"..	3,000 00
That it is proposed to award the work for the above listed items on the basis of the prices quoted subject, however, to the provision that such prices are to be considered as ceiling prices and that in no event will the contractor be paid an amount greater than the actual cost of the. work plus 5% of such cost. The actual cost will be determined in accordance with the terms of the original contract;
That the plans for the three remaining items are not yet complete so that it is not possible to obtain quotations for them. The estimated cost of such items is as follows:
(5)	C.P. & P.O. Building .... $621,887 00
(6)	Physical training centre..	638,000 00
(7)	Additional sewer, water
and road facilities	 300,000 00
That it is proposed to award the work for
these three items on the understanding that the contractor will quote prices for them as soon as possible, which prices will then be considered as ceiling price, subject to the provision above described;
That it is proposed to cover the above additional work by an amendment to the existing contract;
That funds to cover the estimated additional expenditure of $1,982,968, are provided by Department of National Defence (Navy) Financial Encumbrance No. 5721 as amended October 27, 1942.
The committee, therefore, on the recommendation of the Minister of Munitions and Supply advise that authority be granted for an amendment to the said contract with Anglin-Norcross Limited in accordance with the foregoing.
A. D. P. Heeney, Clerk of the Privy Council.
The Honourable
The Minister of National Defence.
Questions

Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: 1.	How much fertilizer was sold during the year 1943 from the Trail plant of the Consolidated Mining & Smelting Company to firms in British Columbia?
2.	What amount to each firm?
3.	(a) What is the freight rate between Trail
and Chilliwack on this product; (b) what freight subsidy is paid per ton between Trail and Chilliwack ?	*
4.	What amount of subsidy was paid on fertilizer in federal ridings in British Columbia of last year?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	The details of business of individual companies are treated as confidential.
2.	See answer to question No. 1.
3.	(a) 27 cents per 100 lbs. or $5.40 per ton;
(b)	None, the freight subsidies on shipments to points west of the Cascades are based on Vancouver freights.
4.	The records of subsidies paid in 1943 were not based on federal ridings. The breakdown of fertilizer subsidies paid in British Columbia in 1943 by provincial districts, was as follows:
Lower Mainland 	Tons ... 1,785-6	$8,679 32Vancouver Island ....	... 284-2	1,258 95Cariboo 	... 72-9	446 53Kootenay .	... 18-4	108 77Interior 	... 83-5	501 96Central 	... 1-9	14 34
2,246-5 $11,009 87



UNEMPLOYMENT-BUILDING TRADES

Mr. NICHOLSON:: IIow many men in the building trades in each of the provinces of Canada were registered as unemployed on the most recent date for which statistics have been compiled?


Mr. MARTIN:: "Unemployed Men in the Building Trades as at Februaiy 11, 1944" Skilled and Semiskilled Construction Trades
	1	2	3	4
		Referred to jobs		Requests for
		but confirmation		employees on
Registrants not	of placement	Total	hand and inyet referred	not yet	registered	process ofto jobs	received	1 plus 2	being filledPrince Edward Island..	21	4	25	4Nova Scotia 	184	41	225	345New Brunswick 	46	47	93	112Quebec 	1,426	587	2.013	1.039Ontario 	992	259	1.251	925Manitoba 	375	20	395	39Saskatchewan 	112	4	116	38Alberta 	213	96	309	282British Columbia 	329	177	506	439Canada 	3,698	1,235	4,933	3,223DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR-	-ANNUITIES-	the immediate	supervision of:	The making of



ACTUARIAL ASSISTANTS

Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	What employees are now doing the work formerly done by the actuarial assistants in the annuities branch of the Department of Labour?
2.	What are the duties of the actuarial clerks now in the employ of the annuities branch?
3.	What are their qualifications?
4.	What salary do they receive?


Mr. MARTIN:: 1.	Mr. C. D. Allen and Mrs. F. C. Davidson.
2.	The duties of Mr. C. D. Allen consist of
[Mr. W. C. Macdonald. 1
actuarial calculations, involving the costs of both past and future service and interviewing employers relative to proposed retirement annuity plans for employees; the annual valuations of retirement plans in force; actuarial calculations concerning withdrawals, deaths and retirements under group contracts and the issuing of individual contracts in connection therewith; correspondence on all matters affecting retirement annuity plans, office work and routine in connection with the foregoing.

Questions
The duties of Mrs. F. C. Davidson involve the making of actuarial calculations under individual contracts with respect to new or changing contracts, assisting in year-end valuation, the preparation of annual reports, financial statements and carrying on statistical and mortality investigations; assisting with actuarial calculations involving the cost of [DOT]both past and future service respecting proposed retirement annuity plans for employees; assisting with the annual valuations of retirement annuity plans in force; actuarial calculations concerning withdrawals, deaths and retirements under group contracts.
3.	Qualifications:	Mr. C. D. Allen. (1)
Graduation from Dalhousie university (B.A.) in mathematics and economics, (2) Passed three examinations of Actuarial Society of America, (3) Passed civil service grade four examination for university, graduates, (4) First on eligible list, civil service competition for actuarial assistants (1943), (5) Five years experience in Annuities branch.
Qualifications: Mrs. F. C. Davidson. (1) Graduate of university of Manitoba (B.A.), specialization in Actuarial Science and Economics, (2) [DOT] Three years experience in a division of the Actuarial department of the Great West Life Assurance Company, Winnipeg, (3) Passed three Life Underwriter examinations, 1940, (4) Three years experience with the government Annuities branch, (5) Placed on civil service grade 4 list, 1942, (6) Second in civil service competition for actuarial assistants, 1943.
4.	Salary: Mr. C. D. Allen, $1,440 per year. War Duty Supplement, $120 per year. Cost of living bonus, $221.94 per year.
Salary: Mrs. F. C. Davidson, $1,320 per year. War Duty Supplement, $240 per year. Cost of living bonus, $221.04 per year.



E. P. TAYLOR

Mr. NICHOLSON:: 1.	What positions have been occupied by Ur. E. P. Taylor with the British, American and Canadian governments since the outbreak of war?
2.	What are his present duties?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: 1.	Since the outbreak of war Mr. E. P. Taylor has occupied the following positions:
Canadian Government-Member, Executive Committee, Department of Munitions & Supply; Joint Director General, Munitions Production, Munitions & Supply; Executive Assistant to the Minister of Munitions & Supply; President, War Supplies Limited; Deputy Member for Canada, Combined Production
and Resources Board; Canadian Chairman, Joint War Aid Committee, United States-Canada.
British Government-President and Vice Chairman, British Supply Council in North America; Director General, British Ministry of Supply Mission (formerly British Purchasing, Commission).
2.	None.



SELECTIVE SERVICE ADVISORY BOARDS- E. N. GRIGGS

Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	Is there a set of employment and selective service advisory boards, national, regional and local, in operation on a voluntary basis? If so, when were these boards established?
2.	Has there been established recently another set of selective service advisory boards on a salary basis? If so, under what date and by what authority?
3.	In what way do the functions of the boards referred to in question (2) differ from those of boards referred to in question (1) ?
4.	What position does Mr. E. N. Griggs occupy in the government service? What salary is he paid by the government?
5.	How many selective service regional advisory directors have been appointed, and what are their salaries?


Mr. MARTIN:: 1.	There are national and regional selective service advisory boards, also national, regional and local employment committees, all on a voluntary basis.
The national selective service advisory board was established by P.C. 2254, March 21, 1942.
The regional selective service advisory boards were established by P.C. 512, January 28, 1944.
The national employment committee was established September 23, 1941.
Five regional committees have been established by the unemployment insurance commission throughout the dominion.
Local employment committees, of which there are now forty-five, are established whenever the regional committee recommends their establishment or the local employment situation indicates that they are necessary.
2.	& 3. See reply to question 1.
4.	Mr. E. N. Griggs is regional director, national selective service, prairie region. His salary is $1,800 per annum.
5.	Four regional directors, national selective service, have been appointed. Their salaries are as follows: Pacific regional director, $4,500 per annum; Prairie regional director, $1,800 per annum; Ontario regional director, $4,800 per annum; Quebec regional director, $4,800 per annum.

Questions



WINNIPEG STOCK MARKET-PRICES

Mr. DONNELLY:: 1.	What was the price for No. 1 choice butcher steers on the Winnipeg stock market on December 16, 1929; December 16, 1932, and December 16, 1943?
2.	What was the price for calves, good and
choice veal, on the Winnipeg stock	market on
December	16,	1929;	December	16,	1932,	and
December 16, 1943?
3.	What was the price of lambs, good handyweights, on the Winnipeg stock market on December	16,	1929;	December	16,	1932,	and
December 16, 1943?
4.	What was the price of sheep, good handyweights, on the Winnipeg stock market on December	16,	1929;	December	16,	1932,	and
December 16, 1943?
5.	What was the price of grade A hogs, dressed basis, delivered off trucks at yards and plants, on the Winnipeg stock market on December 16, 1929; December 16, 1932, and December 16, 1943?
Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West);
1.	S9.25 to $9.50 per cwt.; S3.00 to $4.00 per cwt.; $11.50 to $11.75 per cwt.
2.	$12.00 to $13.00 per cwt.; $5.00 to $6.00 per cwt.; $13.00 to $14.50 per cwt.
3.	$8.00 to $10.50 per cwt.; $3.50 to $3.75 per cwt.; $10.75 to $11.00 per cwt.
4.	$5.00 to $6.50 per cwt.; $1.75 to $2.00 per cwt.; $5.00 to $6.00 per cwt.
5.	$14.00* per cwt.; $4.13* per cwt.; $16.30t per cwt.
*Bacon hogs converted to dressed basis.
tB-1 Grade A $1.00 per head additional at each date.



WARTIME HOUSING LIMITED-KINGSTON

[Stage Direction]
Mr, CARDIFF:	.
1.	What is the total of expenditure to date made by the government on the Wartime Housing Limited project at Kingston, Ontario?
2.	How many houses have been built?
3.	How many are now employed on the administrative staff?
4.	Who are they, and what salary does each receive ?
Mr. CHEVRIER:: 1.	$1,466,633.80, which covers the cost of 325 houses, a women's hostel and community buildings.
2.	325 houses.
3.	There are eight employees on the administrative staff.
4.	Per month
Mr. H. C. Nickle	 $200 00
Miss M.	Cook	
117	50Miss B.	Miller	
90	00Miss E.	Cleland	
50	00Miss M.	Stringer	
90	00Miss J. Yey	
80 00Miss R.	Reynolds	
80	00Miss E.	Lamoreux	
SO	00



ESTEVAN R.A.F. FLYING SCHOOL

Mr. TRIPP:: 1.	What was the average number of men stationed at Estevan Royal Air Force service flying school during each month of 1943?
2.	How much water was used at this school during the year 1943; at what cost, and was there any shortage?
3.	How much electricity was used at this school during the year 1943, and at what cost?
4.	How much coal was used during 1943, and at what cost?


Mr. MACMILLAN:: 1.	The average number of men stationed at No. 38 S.F.T.S., Estevan, during each month of 1943, was as follows:-
	Officers	Airmen Total	
January 	
99	1,165	1,264February 	
95	1,158	1,253March 	
96	1,176	1,272April 	
99	1,199	1,298May 	
97	1,172	1,269June	
96	1,110	1,206July 	
95	1,094	1,189August	
Ill	1,0S9	1,200September ...	
126	1,082	1,208October	
129	1,070	1,199November ...	
129	' 1,067	1,196December ...	
124	1,083	1,2072. 32,867,870	gallons of water were	used atthe school during the year 1943 at a	cost of$5,916.23 and	there was no	water	shortage
duripg the year.
3.	The consumption of electrical energy during the year was 1,340,671 k.w.h., at a cost of $21,708.90.
4.	Estevan, 8,692 tons coal, cost, $33,546.25; R. I. Outram, 335 tons coal, cost $1,457.75. Total, 9,027 tons coal, cost $35,004.



REGIONAL OIL CONTROLLER-VANCOUVER

Mr. SINCLAIR:: 1.	Who is the regional oil controller in ' Vancouver?
2.	What salary is he paid?
3.	On whose recommendation was he appointed?
4.	What previous experience had he, (a) in the oil business; (b) in any capacity which entailed serving the public in a tactful and courteous manner?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: 1.	Major Phillip A. Curry.
2.	$5,000 per annum.
3.	Appointed by order in . council P.C. 26/1038, February 9, 1942, on. the recommendation. of the oil controller, The Deputy Minister and the Minister of Munitions and Supply.
4.	(a) None; Ob) Major Curry's business experience is as follows: 1907-1910, White Star Line, London, England; 1910-1914, White Star

Questions
Line, New York, U.S.A.; 1914-1916, the British army : (Wounded at Ypres and decorated with the Mons Star, British O.B.E., and the United States D.S.M.); 1917-1919, The British Ministry of Shipping, New York, U.S.A.; 19191938, the White Star Line, Montreal, P.Q. (general manager); 1938-1941, British Pacific Properties and First Narrows Bridge Co., Vancouver, B.C. (general manager); May to December, 1941, North American Life Assurance Co.



ALCOHOLIC LIQUORS

Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: What were the estimated quantities produced and consumed in Canada in the years 1933, 1939 and 1943 of, (a) spirits; (b) malt liquors; (c) beer; (d) wine?


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: Quantities of spirits, malt liquors and wines produced and consumed in Canada in the years 1933, 1939 and 1943:
1933	1939	1943
Production-	(Fiscal years)
(a) Spirits	1	proof gal. 4,345,834	9,642,830	19,657,698*(b)	Malt liquors	gal. 40,664,625 .	63,331,620	108,980,613(c)	Beer (included in malt liquors-separate data not
available).
1933	1939	1943
(d) Wine-	(Calendar years)
1.	Produced during the year but placed in storage
for maturing	gal.	1,920,587	3,998,232	4,352,4032.	Ferment wine	bottled	or	sold in	bulk	gal.	2,718,530	3,424,668	4,612,8921933	1939	1943Apparent consumption (estimated)-	(Fiscal years)(a)	Spirits	proof	gal.	1,497,669	3,433,664	4,903,023(b)	Malt liquors	gal.	40,814,971	63,302,752	97,610,326(c)	Beer (included in	malt	liquors-separate data not
available).
(d)	Wine	gal.	3,148,191	3,461,867	4,627,567
*This includes industrial alcohol produced for war purposes.



PURCHASE OF PROPERTY IN PORTSMOUTH, ONT.

Mr. CARDIFF:: 1.	Has the government acquired the property know-n as Calderwood, at Union St., in the village of Portsmouth, Ontario?
2.	If so, -when, and w-hat was the purchase price?
3.	To whom is the property leased at the present time?
4.	What is the period or term of the present lease?
5.	Who is occupying the property at the present time?
6.	What rent is being paid per month for this property?
7.	Is this property suitable for government purposes?
8.	If not, why?


Mr. FOURNIER (Hull):: 1.	Yes.
2.	Property purchased in 1919 for $15,000.
3.	10-24 acres of property with building thereon leased to and occupied by W. Rupert Davies, remainder used by Department of Justice for quarry purposes in connection with penitentiary.
4.	Five years from September 1, 1943.
5.	Answered by No. 3.
6.	$25 a month, lessee to pay all repairs and upkeep of property, as well as taxes and local improvements.
7 and 8. Property was purchased for military hospital purposes and used for approximately one year, after which it was occupied by the Department of National Defence until 1926. Since then the property has not been found suitable for any existing government purpose.



COLD STORAGE-KINGSTON

Mr. CARDIFF:: 1.	What is the total amount paid by the dominion government for cold storage purposes in the city of Kingston, Ontario?
2.	To whom were these grants paid?
3.	On wl^at dates were they paid?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	$3,921.55.
2.	Kingston Cold Storage, Kingston, Ontario-
3.	August 29, 1940; June 26, 1941; August 24, 1942; October 4, 1943.
Questions



NATIONAL INCOME-PROFITS OF INCORPORATED COMPANIES, ETC.

Mr. MacINNIS:: .. For each of the years 1938 to 1943 inclusive, what was: 1. (a) national income at factor cost; (b) gross national product; (c) total of income payments to individuals?
2.	(a) Total of income paid out in salaries and wages; (b) total of payments to men and women in the services, and whether same is included in 2 (a); (c) total net income of enterprises, (i) agricultural; (ii) other?
3.	Total investment income?
4.	Total profits of incorporated companies?
5.	(a) Total of, undistributed profits of said companies; (b) total of depreciation and other reserves of said companies?


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: 1.	(a)
1938		 $4,291,158,000
1939		 4,553,662,000
1940		 5,404,154,000
1941		 6,500,000,000
1942		 7,500,000,000
1943	(Estimated) ....	8,800,000,000
(b)	*
1938		 $5,226,816,000
1939		 5,498,997,000
1940		 6,383,022,000
1941		 7,585,919,000
1942		 8,694,578,000
1943	(Estimated at)..	10,140,000,000
(c)
1938		 $4,133,618,000
1939		 4,344,216,000
1940		 4,944,284,000
1941		 5,873,429,000
1942		 7,090,068,000
1943		 Unavailable
2.	(a)
1938		 $2,454,348,000
1939		 2,604,519,000
1940		 3,081,980,000
1941		 3,812,884,000
1942		 4,806,326,000
1943		 Unavailable.
(b)
Pay and allowances, clothing, personal equipment and rations of armed forces serving in Canada. Fiscal year ended March 31, 1940; $50,120,000. Fiscal year ended March 111, 1941, $199,883,000. Fiscal year ended March 31, 1942, $306,480,000. Fiscal year ended March 31, 1943, unavailable. These computations are included in 2 (a).
IMr. Gardiner.]
(c)	Computation in course of revision.
3.
1938		 $622,873,000
1939		 644,939,000
1940		 660,742,000
1941		 749,929,000
1942		 Unavailable
1943		 Unavailable
4.	Profits of 628 large incorporated companies as published in October-November number 1943, of statistical summary of the Bank of Canada:	.
1938		 $268,700,000
1939		 327,800,000
1940		 337,000,000
1941		 379,900,000
1942		 379,400,000
1943		 Unavailable
5.	(a) Undistributed profits of said companies as published in October-November number 1943, of statistical summary of the Bank of Canada:
1938		 $ 19,000,000
1939		 88,000,000
1940		'	 98,000,000
1941		 141,000,000
1942		 127,000,000
5.	(b) Total of depreciation, deferred development and patent write-offs as published in October-November number 1943, of statistical summary of the Bank of Canada:
1938		 $124,000,000
1939		 135,000,000
1940		 162,000,000
1941		 206,000,000
1942		 264,000,000
1943		 Unavailable



METALS CONTROL-ALUMINUM

Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: 1.	How many permits or releases have been issued or granted by the metals controller, under "Order No. M.C. 44, Aluminum", for the use, delivery, transfer or sale of basic aluminum, or wrought aluminum, or aluminum products, between March 6, 1943, and January 31, 1944; and to whom were such permits and releases issued?
2.	How many reports have been filed with the metals controller under the provisions of section 6 of Order No. M.C. 44?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: 1.	(a) Number of releases, 6,175; (b) Number of users, 642. It is not the policy of the Department to give names of citizens or firms to whom permits or releases have been issued.
2.	3,711.

Questions



FIFTH PAN-AMERICAN HIGHWAYS CONFERENCE- PERU

Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: 
Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	To date no official invitation has been received.
2.	Answered by No. 1.



JAPANESE NATIONALS IN BRITISH COLUMBIA- EMPLOYMENT IN FORESTS ON CROWN LANDS

Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: 1.	Does order in council P.C. 1422, dated
23rd day of February, 1943, override the authority of the statutes of the province of British Columbia?	, _____
2.	Does the said order P.C. 1422 of 1943 authorize the employment of persons of Japanese origin in the forests on crown lands held in the right of the province of British Columbia?
3.	If so, how many persons of Japanese origin have been so employed?


Paul Joseph James Martin: 1 and 2. Order in council P.C. 1422 provides: "From and after the date of this order and for the duration of the emergency created by the present war no statute of the province of British Columbia and no order in council made pursuant to any such statute or otherwise and no term or condition contained in any contract, lease, licence or concession or other instrument shall operate to disqualify or prohibit any person of Asiatic racial origin, wherever born, from employment in any capacity in the timber industry in the province of British Columbia and no one employing any such person in any such capacity in the timber industry in the said province shall, by reason of any provision in any such statute, order in council, contract, lease, licence, concession or other instrument, be subject to any penalty, forfeiture or other liability."
3.	Approximately 1,200 persons of Japanese origin are employed in British Columbia woods operations on production of lumber, fuelwood, etc. The department has no means of knowing how many of these are working for employers carrying on operations on crown lands as distinct from privately-owned lands.



SELECTIVE SERVICE-FARM WORKERS

Mr. REID:: What steps have been taken by the Department of Labour to ensure a more effective application of the national selective service regulations designed to retain workers on the farm?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Changes have been made in both the civilian and mobilization regulations for making more effective the policy of
stabilizing employment in agriculture and steps have been taken to ensure improvement in the administration of this policy.
The original national selective service civilian regulations (order in council P.C. 7595, August 28, 1942), permitted men from farms to work outside of agriculture for not more than 30 consecutive days without securing a permit from an employment and selective service office. This meant that a ' farmer could- accept non-agricultural employment for several periods during the year not exceeding thirty days each without having to obtain a permit.
An improvement in this regulation was effected in the amendment to the national selective service civilian regulations (order in council P.C. 246, January 19, 1943). This amendment dropped the 30 consecutive day provision and replaced it with a clause, stating that farm workers could not accept employment outside of agriculture without securing a permit if that employment were taken in an urban centre of over 5,000 population. They were allowed to take employment outside of agriculture for 60 days in a calendar year without obtaining a permit when such employment was not in an urban centre of over 5,000 population, but only at such periods when they could) be spared from the farms.
Several circulars have gone out to employment offices emphasizing the necessity for keeping men on the farms, containing specific instructions that regulations designed to accomplish this were to be rigidly enforced.
In the spring of 1943 men with practical experience and training in agriculture were appointed as agricultural employment advisers in the different regions. One of their jobs is to keep the local employment offices constantly informed of farm labour requirements and to see that regulations governing employment in agriculture are fully understood and effectively carried out by the local offices.
When the- national selective service policy was introduced in March, 1942, an important change was made in the mobilization regulations so that these regulations would conform to the general policy of retaining essential man power on farms. This change included a>. special provision for the postponement of military training for farm worKers, as distinct from the method to be used in granting-postponements for men in all other industries.
Reference has already been made in the house to the interpretative letter which was sent in February, 1943, by the director of national selective service to the chairmen of all the mobilization boards. This letter dealt exclusively with the problems of farm labour. The letter emphasized the shortage of labour
Questions

for the farms, the urgent need for retaining essential man power on the farms, and the special status of farm workers under the regulations. The including of a special provision for postponing farm workers followed by the letter to the boards has resultedi in more favourable consideration by all boards of farmers' applications for postponements. The percentage of applications which are not granted is now very small.
All mobilization boards make use of information collected on a farm questionnaire for each man applying for a postponement. This information provides full details of the extent of his farming operations, and any special circumstances which may influence the decisions of the boards.
The mobilization boards are using to an increasing degree, provincial departments of agriculture field staffs and local committees for securing reports on the essentiality of farm workers who apply for postponement. This coordination was given an added impetus this past summer when meetings organized by the Department of Labour were held with the different mobilization boards and the interested provincial and regional selective service officials. The object of these meetings was to discuss all aspects of the farm labour problem with a view to determining where the farm labour organizations might be helpful to the boards and the boards might be helpful to the farm labour organizations, and to secure the most effective use of men postponed as essential agricultural workers. This has resulted in a considerable transfer of farm wmrkers to other farms requiring help, when after investigation, of their applications for postponement, such men were not found to be needed on their own farms.



DOMINION-PROVINCIAL FARM LABOUR AGREEMENTS -LABOUR TRANSFERS

Mr. BLANCHETTE:: In the detailed arrangements developed for the large scale transfers of farm labour organized under the dominion-provincial farm labour programme, were any provisions included for, (a) the dominion and the province concerned paying medical and hospital expenses incidental to sickness or accident suffered by an individual as a direct result of his participation in the labour transfer; (b) refunding a portion of the railway fares of men who, having failed, to obtain transportation warrants which would have enabled them to travel largely at government expense, paid their own way, and later made application to be reimbursed?


Paul Joseph James Martin: (a) In the dominion-provincial farm labour agreements a provision was included for defraying the costs by equal IMr. Martin.]
contributions of the province concerned and the dominion of medical and hospital expenses incidental to accidents suffered by workers specially recruited for employment on farms.
The provision was to apply to workers not normally employed in agriculture and where the accidents occurred as a direct result of their farm employment or while travelling to or from such employment.
This provision is being extended to pay the costs of medical and hospital expenses for certain cases of accidents or sickness incurred by men who participated in the organized farm labour excursions, even though such men were normally employed in agriculture. Such accidents or sickness must have occurred while the men were engaged in farm employment for which the labour transfer was organized, or while in transit to or from the place of employment. All cases were fully investigated by the province before recommending that the expenses should be paid. Requests for payments of medical or hospital expenses were made by the individuals concerned to the government of the province where they were employed.
(b)	A number of applications for refunds have been received from men who claimed to have participated in an organized labour transfer, but paid their own transportation expenses when, through some misunderstanding or other reason, they failed to secure transportation warrants. Each application was considered on its own merit.
Wherever the circumstances showed a genuine misunderstanding of the procedure to secure a transportation' warrant or other reasonable explanation, arrangements are being made for refunds to be paid. A few cases have been refused which showed an obvious disregard of the procedure or regulations governing the labour transfer.



MOBILIZATION ACT-FARM WORKERS

Mr. HENDERSON:: When farm workers apply for postponement of military training, what is done by the mobilization boards to satisfy themselves that such men are or are not essential to agriculture?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Questionnaire forms are sent to the man in order to ascertain his essentiality to agriculture. The registrar also uses the services of the provincial agricultural representatives and R.C.M.P. He also requests the advice of the representative of agriculture attached to the mobilization board.

Questions



FARM WORKERS IN ESSENTIAL INDUSTRIES

Mr. McIVOR:: In the recruiting campaign organized last fall to encourage farm workers to accept winter employment in other essential industries, what was done, (a) to. prevent men leaving live stock and dairy farms where they were needed during the winter; (b) to ensure that all farm workers would return to agriculture in time for spring work?


Paul Joseph James Martin: (a) In the campaign conducted last fall to encourage farm workers who could leave the farms for the winter, to accept employment in other essential industries specific steps were taken to see that only those left who could be spared. This recruiting was carried out in cooperation with provincial agricultural fieldmen and local committees. Local employment and selective service offices were asked to clear with these provincial people as to whether farm workers for whom permits were being requested could be spared from their farms, before issuing these permits to work outside of agriculture.
We recognize that this procedure did not prevent some from leaving agriculture who should have remained, but during the past winter hundreds of farm workers who would like to have left the farms for the winter, were prevented because it was learned that they were needed on the farms the year round.
(b) All permits issued to farm workers recruited in the campaign were marked to expire April 1. It was agreed with the provinces that this date might be extended for those farm workers from areas where spring work might be backward owing to weather conditions. Regional superintendents have now been sent general instructions regarding the development of procedure in their respective regions for a systematic cancelling of these permits when men are needed back in agriculture. They have been asked to consult with provincial agricultural authorities as to the dates when men should be back in specific areas. Action will then be taken to cancel the permits of farm workers so that they will be released from their temporary employment to return to the farms on those dates. Definite instructions are being issued to local employment offices for a rigorous checking to see that farm workers are released on the dates when permits are cancelled. Provincial government representatives are being asked to advise when men return to agriculture in the areas from which they were recruited. This will act as a double check on men getting back to the farms.



PENSIONS AND NATIONAL HEALTH-WELFARE BRANCH, QUEBEC PROVINCE

Mr. GAUTHIER:: 1.	Since the 1st of November, 1941, how many persons have been appointed to the_ welfare branch of the Department of Pensions and National Health, in the province of Quebec to aid in the civil reestablishment of soldiers?
2.	What are their names, place of residence and occupation?
3.	Have they served, (a) in the war of 1914 to 1918; (b) in the present war?


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: 1. Fifteen.
2 and 3:
Name-Address-Occupation-War Service Desjardins, L. H., 1010 St. James W., Montreal, Que., Veterans' Welfare Officer, grade 3, 1914-1918.
Bell, H. M., 205 Gohier, Montreal, Que., Veterans' Welfare Officer, grade 3, 1914-1918.
Bourgault, J. A., St. Louis de Bonsecours, Que., Veterans' Welfare Officer, grade 2, 19141918.
Brown, J., 3469 Hutchinson, Montreal, Que., Clerk, grade 4, 1914-1918 and present war.
Driscoll, W- S., 3564 Hutchinson, Montreal, Que., Clerk, grade 3, 1914-1918.
Verdon, R., 21 Dufferin, Granby, Que., Clerk, grade 3, present war.
Bourque, R. L. J., 2 St. Marguerite Rd., Montreal, Que., Clerk, grade 2, present war.
Haig, D., Philipsburg, Que., Clerk, grade 2, present war.
Klein, Miss E., 5214 Hutchinson, Montreal, Que., Stenographer, grade 2.
Moquin, Miss H., 3464 St. Denis, Montreal, Que., Typist, grade 2.
Lebeau, Mrs. J. A., 7651 Lasalle Blvd., Lasalle, Que., Typist, grade 2.
Poirier, Miss G., 3298 Verdun Ave., Verdun, Que., Stenographer, grade 2.
Ferland, L., 12407 Notre Dame des Anges, Cartierville, Que., Veterans' Welfare Officer, grade 1, 1914-1918.
Guay, Miss R., 99 Bourlamaque, Quebec, Que., Stenographer, grade 2.
Piegay, Miss J., 44 Marguerite Bourgeois Ave., Quebec, Que., Stenographer, grade 2.



* ROSARIO MESSIER

Mr. LECLERC:: 1.	Is Mr. Rosario Messier an employee of the dominion government in Ottawa?
2.	If so, what are his duties?
Mr. McLARTY;
1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
Questions as Orders for Returns



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. GILLIS:: 1.	What is the present total number of permanent force naval officers in the Canadian navy?
2.	What is the present total number of permanent force naval officers in the Canadian navy of the rank or lieutenant or over?
3.	What percentage of the latter (2) have gone to sea in the present war for a period of six months or more?
4.	What is the present total number of reserve naval officers in the Canadian navy of the rank of lieutenant or over?
5.	What percentage of such officers have gone to sea in the present war for a period of six months or more?
6.	What percentage of the total permanent naval officers have been decorated or cited?
7.	What percentage of the total reserve officers have been decorated or cited?
8.	Why is the outward distinction between permanent and reserve naval officers preserved?
9.	What proportion of the total enlisted navy personnel are regularly at sea?


Mr. MACDONALD (Kingston. City):: Return tabled.
POSTER "coal FIGHTS FOR CANADA"


Mr. BENCE:: 1.	How many copies of the poster "Coal Fights for Canada", issued by the Department of Labour, have been printed?
2.	How many of such posters have been distributed?
3.	What is the size of such poster?
4.	How many photographs were used in the making up of such posters?
5.	What was the total cost incurred in the preparation of the said poster?
6.	What is the purpose of such poster?


DOMESTIC FUEL-IMPORTS AND SUBSIDIES
Mr. CASTLEDEN:: 1.	What was the .total tonnage of domestic fuel imported from, (a) United States; (b) Great Britain, to Quebec and Ontario during 1942 and 1943?'
2.	What was the total amount paid in federal subsidies to the importers of domestic fuel from, (a) United Statesi; (b) Great Britain, to Quebec and Ontario during each of the years 1942 and 1943?


DOMESTIC FUEL-PRICES, WAGES, ETC.
Mr. CASTLEDEN:: 1.	What was the total tonnage of production of domestic fuel in Nova Scotia, Saskatchewan and Alberta, during each of the years 1942 and 1943?
2.	What was the total production subsidy paid on this domestic fuel during each of these
years?
3.	What per day wage increases were granted
to coal miners in each of these provinces during 1942	1943?	"
[Mr. McLarty.)
4.	What is the average man-day production in each of these provinces?
5.	What increases in retail prices of domestic coal were permitted in Nova Scotia, Quebec, Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta during each of the years 1942 and 1943?
6.	What is the retail price per ton of each type of domestic coal in Halifax, Montreal, Toronto, Hamilton, Fort William, Winnipeg, Regina, Moose Jaw, Saskatoon, Yorkton. Calgary, Edmonton, as at February 29, 1944?



IMMIGRATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. FREDERIC DORION (Charlevoix-Saguenay):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Mines and Resources. On January 27 I asked the government a question, recorded in Votes and Proceedings of that day, which reads as . follows:
How many immigrants entered Canada in each of the years 1940, 1941, 1942 and 1943?
An answer was given on February 11. I quote from Hansard, page 370.
Calendar
year
1940.
1941.
1942.
1943.
Number
11,324
9,329
7,576
8,504
That is a total of 36,733. A few days ago-I received the annual report of the Department of Mines and Resources. I see at page 177 some figures which are not in accordance with the ones given to me in answer to my question. The figures mentioned in this annual report as regards the number of immigrants who entered Canada during the same years are as follows:
1941
1943
16,205
11,496
8.865
7,445
That makes a total of 44,011; that is to say, a difference of 7,278. I should like to know which of these figures is the correct one and if necessary the figures in Hansard of February 11 should be corrected.


Mr. CRERAR:: As a matter of fact both the statements to which the hon. member refers were correct. His question was based on the calendar years and the answer was given accordingly. The departmental report deals with the fiscal years, from April 1 to March 31, and the figures disclosed there did not coincide with the basis upon which his question was framed. I simply wish to make this explanation for the information of the hon. gentleman.

Alberta Coal Mining-Unemployment



AMENDMENT OP REGULATIONS RESPECTING DELIVERY QUOTAS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. T. F. DONNELLY (Wood Mountain):: Some time ago the Minister of Trade and Commerce announced in the house that he expected to increase the quota for western wheat to eighteen bushels to the acre. When does he expect to do it7


James Angus MacKinnon: Before coming into the house I received word that the raising of the quota from fourteen to eighteen bushels is going into effect as from to-day. That does not mean that the quota will be raised from fourteen to eighteen bushels, at all points, but at those points where it is possible to raise it.


Mr. CASTLEDEN:: Will cars be made available for taking out the fourteen-bushel quota before the moving of this new seventeen-bushel quota?


James Angus MacKinnon: The matter of handling grain quotas is being dealt with from the point of view of the needs of the individual community. I cannot answer yes or no to this question, but cars are handled on the basis of placing them at those points where it is impossible to deliver the established quota.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. C. E. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: Last Tuesday I raised a question in regard to the unemployment situation in the west. Would the minister care to reply to-day?


Hon. HUMPHREY MITCHELL (Minister of Labour):: I can do that. My hon. friend
will appreciate that the time ran out at eleven o'clock when, the hon. member for Macleod (Mr. Hansell) concluded his statement. The situation with regard to the coal industry in the west was brought to the attention of the house. It is quite true that we have had a difficult problem in the west, brought about largely by the unusual weather conditions prevailing on the prairies this past winter. I think that might be said generally throughout the country. I have a vivid recollection of the hon. member for Bow River rising in his place last session and saying that we had no organization to meet a possible shortage of fuel in the west this winter. In the light of what has taken place, I think it can be said that we were
not only prepared but overprepared, having regard to weather conditions, to meet the fuel situation in western and eastern Canada this year.


Charles Edward Johnston: Providence helped you out that time.


Humphrey Mitchell: I will give Providence
some credit but not my hon. friend. In June of last year an emergency existed in the production of an adequate supply of fuel and the government found it necessary to pass new regulations in an effort to direct back to employment in coal mining experienced miners who had taken up employment in other industries. Our efforts in that direction were largely successful. We arranged for the return to the mines of practically every experienced coal miner fit for such employment. We also had the full cooperation of the Department of National Defence in granting leave to ex-coal miners so that they could assist in the emergency. We planned on the basis of an average winter on the prairies and elsewhere, and the mild weather conditions prevailing during the past several months have changed completely the usual fuel requirements, especially the requirements for domestic fuel.
During the past several weeks a number of operators in the domestic fields have laid off men when they no longer had orders for their coal.
My hon. friends will understand why much of that coal, particularly Alberta coal, cannot be piled. It deteriorates, falls to pieces. It is not like Nova Scotia coal.


Mr. MacNICOL:: It disintegrates.


Charles Edward Johnston: It is good coal.


Humphrey Mitchell: May I say to my hon.
friend that he will need more than Providence when he comes to put some of his monetary theories into operation.


An hon. MEMBER:: It is taking a long
time.


Humphrey Mitchell: Exactly. Recently representatives of the fuel controller and national selective service met in Calgary in order to try to find a solution to the very real problems arising out of the reduced production of domestic fuel in Alberta. We are attempting, in so far as possible, to transfer men from the domestic fields to the bituminous fields, but the movement in that direction has not yet been large, because there is also a falling-off in the man-power requirements of the bituminous coal operators.
1058	COMMONS
Alberta Coal Mining-Unemployment
A limited number of the soldier miners will be returning to their army units. Very shortly a considerable number of men ordinarily engaged in agriculture, but temporarily employed in coal mining, will be returning to the farms. That is the normal shift from agriculture to coal mining in western Canada. Each of these factors will have their influence on alleviating the difficulties being encountered at present, but probably these steps alone will not be sufficient to solve the entire problem.
The member for Bow River was apparently given to understand that men receiving only part-time employment are not permitted to seek other employment. That information is not correct. Through our regional superintendent at Winnipeg we issued instructions, some weeks ago, which had the effect of relaxing the freeze of employment in coal mining in the domestic coal fields. Local selective service offices in the areas affected have been instructed that, on request of an applicant who is not receiving at least four days' work per week and for whom there is not a vacancy in the bituminous fields, a permit may be granted to enter other high priority employment. I can assure you, Mr. Speaker, that we do not propose to freeze a man in employment in coal mining if he is not getting at least four days' work each week.
It was pointed out that we are importing coal from the United States into eastern Canada. That is quite so, and I would say that there are real and practical difficulties in the matter of making western coal available for consumption in the east. The principal difficulty is, of course, transportation. Our transportation facilities are now heavily taxed. I assure my hon. friend that we realize the seriousness of the present situation and that we are taking every possible step to relieve the situation as quickly as possible. It should be understood that transfers of men from one place of employment to another, perhaps a considerable distance away, does require some time. There are special difficulties involved in attempting to effect transfers of married persons with dependents. I should like to say also that care must be taken to assure that there is not too great a dispersal of miners from the area in question. We must bear in mind that we must produce coal for the winter of 1944-45. It may be that we shall not be as lucky next winter so far as weather is concerned.


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: May I call the minister's attention to one fact arising out of the use of miners in this way? Under the regulations of, the Department of National

Defence a soldier released for mining duty is,
I am informed, obliged to report at the end of a certain period, say six months, to be boarded again, if that is the right expression.
It takes two months to get him boarded in and boarded back, and in the meantime his production is lost. That is the experience in the Minto area. Will the minister look into , that?


Mr. BLACKMORE:: May I ask the minister a supplementary question? As he read rather rapidly I am not sure I followed what he said.
I gathered that he conveyed to the house the information that any miner who was not able to receive at least four days' work per week in the mines would be granted permission to take employment in some other high priority industry. Suppose he had not the opportunity to take employment in a high priority industry, but had an opportunity to take employment in another kind of industry, what would be the position?


Humphrey Mitchell: That would depend on the conditions in the* particular locality to which the miner wanted to move. I would say that as soon as the snow goes away in Alberta one of the highest priority industries will be farming. There has always been a swing from coal mining to farming in the spring months, and I assume a large number of these men who normally go into the mines in the winter will go on the farms in the summer season.



INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT BANK


[Stage Direction]
Mr. D. C. ABBOTT (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance) moved the second reading of bill No. 7, to incorporate the Industrial Development bank.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I regret, and I am sure the house regrets, that the Minister of Finance is not able to be here on the second reading of this important bill. He has to be in Washington this week, and is not in Florida, as reported in certain newspapers. The government is anxious that this bill should receive second reading and be sent to the banking and commerce committee as soon as possible.
As I saidl on the first reading, the introduction of this bill to provide for the establishment of an industrial development bank represents one part of the government's programme to prepare the way for a high level of employment and income after the war. In considering the present bill I

Industrial Development Bank
hope that hon. members will keep in. mind that in due course the government will be proposing other measures designed to provide financial assistance in other fields of activity such as agriculture and housing.
If we are to maintain employment and income after the war we must envisage a high level of industrial activity in Canada, employing many of those now engaged in war work or in the armed services. That objective will require considerable industrial development. There are war factories now turning out material for the destruction of the enemy to be converted to peacetime uses. There are existing plants producing civilian goods to be modernized and expanded to meet the demands which will exist for their products after the war. There are new industrial facilities to be provided to utilize the new products and techniques which have been developed during the war.
This industrial development must be financed. Undoubtedly the cash resources of industry, including refundable taxes, have risen in recent years and will be used to finance part of the expenditures I have just mentioned. But industry's own resources may be far short of the total amount of financing required. It is therefore in the national interest to ensure that such additional financing as may be necessary and desirable will be available to industrial enterprises.
A brief review of existing facilities to provide credit for Canadian industry will, I think, serve to show that in certain respects these facilities do not provide and- cannot reasonably be expected to provide all the industrial financing which will be necessary in post-war years.	*
The chartered banks are one source of credit for industrial enterprises. But since the liabilities of these banks are mostly in the form of deposits withdrawable on demand or short notice, it has always been thought desirable that they should keep their assets in rather liquid form-easily realizable in case of need. The wisdom of following this policy has been amply demonstrated in the past by the experience of other countries which have pursued a different course. Tor the reason I have just mentioned, the chartered banks for the most part have made short term loans to industry-loans which in the ordinary course of business can be paid off in full at least once a year. Accordingly, they have been most important as a source of working capital for industry rather than as suppliers of long term funds which might only be repaid over a period of several years. This appears to
be a sound policy and the government would not expect the chartered banks to embark on a large-scale programme of medium and long term credit to industry. '
Industrial enterprises requiring funds which might not be appropriately provided by banks are at present pretty much dependent on the investment market. In other words they must seek to make a public issue of bonds or stock. The availability of funds from this source is subject to a number of limitations. The name and financial record of the issuer must be such as to attract the investing public. The amount of money required must be sufficient to justify the overhead expense of making any public issue of securities. Finally, the attitude of the public towards securities already on the market must indicate that a new issue would get a favourable reception. Small busi- ' ness is particularly affected by such limitations.
If an industrial enterprise requires financial assistance for more than a year or thereabouts and a public issue of security is not feasible for one or more of the reasons I have mentioned- then there is a good chance as things stand now that it'will have considerable difficulty in raising money although the project itself may be basically sound. It is to fill this gap in our financial structure and to ensure that adequate financing is forthcoming for desirable projects that the government proposes to establish the Industrial Development Bank.
As to the bill itself, it is proposed that the bank will be a subsidiary corporation of the Bank of Canada having a board of fifteen directors composed of the members of the board of directors and the assistant deputy governor of the Bank of Canada, with the governor of the Bank of Canada as president. The capital stock of the bank is to be $25 millions all to be subscribed by the Bank of Canada, with $10 millions or more to be paid-up at the time this act comes into effect. In addition, the bank will be empowered to borrow up to three times the amount of its paid-up capital stock and reserve fund, by the issue of bonds and debentures, thus providing the bank with total resources of $100 millions.
I would draw the attention of hon. members to the fact that bonds and debentures issued by the bank will not be guaranteed by the government of Canada. They will, however, be made an eligible investment for the Bank of Canada and in view of the protection afforded by the substantial proportion of capital stock, it is anticipated that they will be marketable elsewhere as well.
The object of this bill being to provide financial resources for industrial enterprises, the bank will be given power to make or
Industrial Development Bank
[Stage Direction]
guarantee loans to such businesses and to acquire their stock, bonds or debentures either bv underwriting or purchasing direct from the issuing corporation. For the purposes of the bill an industrial enterprise has been defined as a business carrying on the manufacture, processing or refrigeration of any goods, wares and merchandise or the building of ships or vessels or the generating or distributing of electricity. The bank will be given power to lend to both new and existing industrial enterprises. To facilitate its operations the bank will be given broad general powers to take and, if necessary, realize upon any collateral security, including real property, in much the same manner as is provided by the Bank Act for other banks in Canada.
I want to make it clear that this bank is intended to supplement the activities of existing lending agencies rather than to displace them. If the credit requirements of a business are of such a nature that they can be obtained from a chartered bank or in the investment market, well and good. On the other hand, if such sources are not available then the industrial development bank will consider applications to assist projects which appear to be economically sound. The industrial development bank is not being set up to finance enterprises which are obviously doomed to end in failure. It would not be in the public interest to subsidize uneconomic activities in this concealed manner. On the other hand if the industrial development bank is to fill the gap I have described, it must operate on the assumption that there will be on the average a relatively high level of economic activity. It should decide whether or not a borrower is credit-worthy against such a background. If it appears likely that he will be successful under such conditions then he should be regarded as an eligible applicant for assistance.
The government believes that the existence of the industrial development bank will be of particular value to small business which ,has laboured under a certain handicap in obtaining medium and long term capital. These small industrial establishments are an essential part of our economy, an important source of employment and production, one which we must not overlook when planning to maintain a high level of employment and income in this country after the war.
As I stated at the outset, Mr. Speaker, the government is anxious that this bill should be given second reading and referred to the banking and commerce committee at as early a day as possible. I understand that the official opposition would like a little further
(Mr. Abbott.]
opportunity to consider the provisions of the bill and the terms of the statement I have made to-day. If that is so, there would be no objection to the debate being adjourned until some time early next week, if that meets the wishes of the house.
Richard Burpee Hanson: Mr. Speaker, the bill now under review is of more than ordinary significance and importance. I submitted to my hon. friend, and I now submit to the house and the country, that it is a radical departure from accepted government policy in this country for the government to enter the field of private enterprise, and that time should be given for further study of the bill. In support of that suggestion may I remind you that first reading was given only a day or two ago; I saw the bill for the first time on Tuesday; then yesterday intervened, and we are asked to give it second reading now. The request for some further time for consideration and study, I am glad to learn, meets with the approval of the hon. gentleman who is sponsoring the bill, and after a brief period I propose to move that the debate be adjourned, which I hope will meet with the approval of the house as I understand it now has the approval of the government.
There are one or two observations, however, which I desire to make, to direct the attention of hon. members to one or two provisions of the bill. In the first place I would point out that the bill is limited to aid to industry, and to industry alone. I had rather formed the opinion that there was enough risk money available in this country for post-war industrial development, if given proper encouragement by the government of the day through some let-up in taxation. That is the first observation I want to make. The second is this: if the government is seeking to increase the national income by expenditures and ventures of this kind, it should have a larger scope. Something has to be done for the farmer, and this measure falls far short in that regard. I throw out that suggestion to the membership of this house.


Mr. ABBOTT:: I mentioned at the outset that consideration was being given to a similar measure for agriculture.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Well, it is not in this bill; that is all I have to say on that point. The next observation I have to make is in reference to the statement of the hon member for St. Antoine (Mr. Abbott) that this proposal is supplementary to existing lending agencies, and he mentioned banks

War Appropriation-Air Services
and investment houses. I suggest, however, that he failed to make out a case against the adequacy of the facilities of the existing lending agencies, which is a subject matter I think this house might very well explore. All you have to do is look at the monthly statements of the chartered banks to understand what an immense amount of money is at present available for the extension of business if the opportunity offers.
The last observation I desire to make for the purpose of directing attention to matters which should be studied in connection with this bill-because I think it should be approached from the point of view of what is in the best interests of the country, and having in view the future of Canada-is that it is alleged that it holds out a hope for small industries. Having regard to the attitude of the Bank of Canada in days gone by, and the mentality and policies behind that bank, I am afraid there is not much hope in this bill for small industry.
I move the adjournment of the debate.
Motion agreed to and debate adjourned.



WAR APPROPRIATION BILL


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Tuesday, February 29, consideration in committee of a resolution to grant to His Majesty certain sums of money for the carrying out of measures consequent upon the existence of a state of war-Mr. Ilsley-Mr. Bradette in the chair.

Hon. C. G. POWER (Minister of National Defence for Air):: Mr. Chairman, when I addressed the committee on Tuesday I had completed a portion of my remarks but had not given all the information to which I think hon. members are entitled. I had given a review of the operations of the Royal Canadian Air Force during the past year. I should like now to take some of the time of the committee to develop our plans for the future, and, following a custom which seems to have met with favour, to give an account of what might be described as headaches which confront us in dealing with matters intimately connected with the Royal Canadian Air Force.
I propose to deai to-day with the questions of repatriation and demobilization, and, without entering upon the sphere of rehabilitation -which I hope to show is not within the jurisdiction of the defence departments-to give some idea of the plans and blueprints
we have in mind, while at the same time explaining to the committee some of the difficulties we must make up our minds to meet. If I ipay, I would ask hon. members to consider these difficulties and blueprints and to criticize them as freely as they may desire. I shall welcome any criticism, however destructive it may be to the ideas I set forth.
Let us define the terms I purpose using. First, repatriation:	To my mind repatriation
means bringing a man back to his home, either from overseas or from some other point in Canada, and putting him in the location from which he enlisted, or where he desires to be. That in itself constitutes a serious problem, and, as I shall presently show, one which is particularly serious for the R.C.A.F.
The next term is demobilization. Taken broadly I suppose that term would mean the dispersing of the armed forces into their civilian components or constituents. But actually it means more than that. It means more than the disbanding of the units. It involves personal demobilization; and that is paiticularly true in Canada, where, as I have often pointed out, our men before joining the forces were in civilian life, and in the vast majority of instances they will return to civilian life.
On top of this comes the problem of predemobilization education, which on a former occasion was explained to the house by my colleague the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Ralston). When we use that term we are referring to such education and training as we can give members of the armed forces while they are still under our jurisdiction, and before they are discharged into civilian life.
Finally comes rehabilitation, the problem of putting the former civilian who hhs served as a soldier back into a position where he may take his part in the civilian life of our country.
These are the problems with which we have to deal, and, following what was said by my colleague the Minister of National Defence, 1 propose immediately to state that the last named, rehabilitation, is not a matter which should be undertaken by the armed services or by the departments which look after the armed services. These are matters which have been discussed before. They were considered after the last war by various committees and by the house. I refer back to the pension committee of 1917. I have not the names of all the members who served on that committee, but among them were such men as Hon. Doctor Beland, Lord Bennett and Hon. Charles Marcil, outstanding men of that day, each of whom had to do with first framing the policy dealing with returning soldiers.

War Appropriation-Air Services
At that time there was conflict between what might be called the military or service mentality, and the civilian mentality. This conflict arose largely out of the question of the medical treatment of soldiers, but was found in some degree through the whole programme.
The report of the committee is too long to read in full, but if lion, members are interested in this phase of the matter I commend to their attention the report of the pension committee of 1917, at page 486 of volume XIII. There is the military point of view, but I believe in what I shall read will be found sufficient of the alternative or civilian proposals to permit the committee to understand what was being discussed. This is what we find:
In dealing with the question of the enlisted soldier, the end immediately in view must be borne in mind. All agencies brought to bear upon the citizen recruit have but one object, namely, ultimately to place a trained, disciplined fighting man on the firing line. It is therefore unquestionably admitted that the preparation of the soldier for active service should be in the hands of experienced military men.
When, however, the citizen soldier has become unfitted for further military service, or when the need no longer exists, it is desirable that he be returned to civil life with the least possible friction or delay. His goal now is a normal civil life, and all measures taken on his behalf should be with the purpose of making him once again a producer and a self-supporting citizen. It is, therefore, reasonable to assume that his restoration to civilian status is an undertaking likely to be best accomplished under civilian guidance. That is to say, as men df military experience are judged most capable of making soldiers out of civilians, so men of civil experience may rightly be regarded as best adapted for remaking civilians out of returned soldiers.
Then they go on to deal with the civilian point of view in respect of wounded and disabled men in connection with the following matters:
Hospital care and treatment.
Functional restoration and artificial limbs.
Vocational training and reeducation.
Casualties' pay and allowances in Canada.
Soldiers' homes.
Cooperation with provincial employment bureaux.
Any relief or disablement fund which may be found necessary.
And in respect of fit men:
Cooperation with the military authorities, with provincial governments and other agencies upon all matters affecting their return to civil life.
Supervision of voluntary organizations of and on behalf of returned soldiers.
That was the civilian point of view. The report continues:
Your committee, unable to reconcile these two divergent views in such a manner as to secure agreeent, is reluctantly compelled to leave the 
question of the control of the agencies for the care and treatment of returned soldiers without a recommendation on its part, having endeavoured in the previous paragraphs to state, with tairness to both contentions, the arguments in support of each view.
That report was made in July, and in February, 1918, the government set up the Department of Soldiers' Civil Reestablishment to do the specific things that were laid down here as the things to be presented from the civil side of the argument. After that, veterans' affairs and soldier problems were dealt with by the Department of Soldiers' Civil Reestablishment.
It is easy for anyone to set out a theory and say that this can be done easily and rapidly. We hear the cliche that we should put our service machinery into reverse in order to solve our rehabilitation problems. It is easy to say, for instance, that one could take the recruiting officers, the men who went into industry to get the men to be put in the army, and use them to put the men back into industry. It may be said that we could use the recruiting offices with their selection boards and trade test boards for the purpose of selecting and trade testing men for a particular industry, and so on all down the line. This all looks well and I suppose it could be made the theme of an excellent speech. I realize that I may be subject to considerable criticism when I say that I do not think it will always work. It is quite possible that we may have to go beyond just simply putting our engines into reverse.
Then there is another cliche commonly used
that we should keep our men in the army until we find them jobs. I have no objection to that as a theory, but I fear that it will not work out in practice. For instance, I have been told that it would be a good idea to use the manning depot at Toronto, which is capable of taking care of from two to three thousand men. It is said' that this depot could be used for the accommodation of young men attending Toronto university. They would be kept under our control until such time as they had finished their courses. Again I realize there may be a difference of opinion, but I suggest that this might not work out. You would have two or three thousand boys still in the air force. If they are still in the air force they would retain their uniforms. They would be drilled in order to justify their use of the uniform. After morning drill they would go up to Toronto university. The lowest man in the military heirarchy, the LAC, might be first in the class in law and he would be taking orders from his wing commander, who might be just barely getting by with his examinations.

War Appropriation-Air Services


Richard Burpee Hanson: You think that there would be a lack of discipline?


Mr. GRAYDON:: There is nothing especially unusual about that.


Charles Gavan Power: I am simply quoting the
cliche that they should be kept in the army until jobs are found for them. As I say, in my opinion it would hardly work under those circumstances. If something else, is meant; if it is meant that we should continue to give them the same pay, the same financial advantages or otherwise, as they would receive if they remained in the service, then that would be another question. I submit that that is a matter which has to be dealt with by the civilian agency which deals with the man and not by the military service agency. The point I am trying to make is that the service agencies are not the proper departments to look after the man in civil life, except to make such preparations for his future career in civilian life as can be made while he remains in the service while the war is on, or while demobilization is on-which may be a long period; or while the period of occupying Europe is on, or while the period of policing Europe is on, or while we are still at war with Japan, which may be long after the end of the war with Germany.
Some of my officers think that I am pigheaded when I cannot agree with the theory that the service should look after these men up until the time when they are fully established in civilian life. My recollection of the last war is that there was an eagerness, almost amounting to mutiny, to get out of the units as quickly as possible. I admit that in this war the mentality is different. I fully recognize that men are younger, that many of them never had any other job. They realize there is some security in the armed services where they get three meals a day. There is perhaps a different mentality in the boys of to-day than there was in those of twenty-five years ago, but when the incentive to drill in order to fight, when the incentive to undergo discipline in order to be better fighters to beat the enemy is gone, when they remain under those conditions for four, five or six months after hostilities have ceased, there is a possibility they will be bored to death and will no longer want to remain in their units.


Gordon Graydon: Will not a great deal depend upon the availability of jobs and other opportunities for these boys when they are ready to enter civilian life? If there are no opportunities available there would be an inducement for them to stay longer in the service. On the other hand, if there are
opportunities available in civilian life the boys will want to get the best ones as quickly as possible.


Charles Gavan Power: I quite agree with my hon. friend. Whatever we have in the way of rehabilitation grants, in the way of service gratuities, or whatever we do in the way of finding them jobs, none of this will be any' good if our national economy does not progress to the point where there will be opportunities for these men to work and earn a decent living.
Having perhaps lightly laid aside the responsibilities of the service with regard to rehabilitation, properly so-called, and again subject to any opposite viewpoints which may be expressed, I come now to matters under our jurisdiction.


Gordon Graydon: Are you and the pensions department in agreement on these matters?


Charles Gavan Power: I have explained how the Department of Soldiers' Civil Reestablishment was set up to deal with the rehabilitation of the returned soldier. The service has a responsibility in connection with repatriation. The civilians cannot do that; they cannot bring back our men. The service has a responsibility in connection with demobilization, and also in connection with the priorities of demobilization, as to both units and individuals. My colleague, the Minister of National Defence, has spoken of our plans and the set-up which in fact is working now. There shall be in each department a director of demobilization who will be charged with all the duties connected with repatriation and demobilization. [DOT]


Gordon Graydon: That is in the three
services?


Charles Gavan Power: Each service; there shall be one in each service. He will correlate his activities with those of the other services through a demobilization council of the three services. Then, in order to get in closer touch with the civilian agencies-because after all the services must know what plans are being made by the civilian agencies-there will be an interdepartmental board composed of representatives of the three services, representatives of the Department of Pensions and National Health, who are charged with the rehabilitation; representatives of the Department of Labour, which is charged with the actual placements; and representatives of the department of reconstruction when it comes to be constructed.
Now, in order to show the importance which in common with my colleagues I attach to the

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quality of the person who must head up this demobilization-and I say right away that I have not found him yet, although I have had my eye on two or three likely ones-I should like to quote a letter which I have sent to the air officer commanding-in-chief overseas, Air-Marshal Breadner:
I am looking for a man to head up a directorate of demobilization. He would not have a large staff. His job would be to coordinate all the work now going on along those lines in A.M.P. Division-
That is, the air member for personnel.
-and elsewhere. His duties would be something like this:	(a) to interview repatriated
personnel and try to fit them into our organization here;
That is to say, when men are about to be repatriated from overseas and they desire to stay in the air force, to try to find what kind of jobs we shall have for them here.
(b) to sit in with army and navy, with veterans' welfare department, Department of Labour, and with the new department of reconstruction; (c) he would do some organizing overseas; (d) to start pre-demobilization education, and he might be your representative on the new joint demobilization committee; (e) he would be charged with the explanation of rehabilitation proposals to R.C.A.F. personnel -overseas and in Canada; (f) he would probably have to shuttle back and forth between here and the Lhnted Kingdom.
His qualifications must be high. He must be an overseas man with actual fighting experience. He must have the imagination, organizing ability and possibly business experience. He must talk the overseas boys' language.
This superman should be fairly high up, a wing commander or group captain, but if he measures up he deserves promotion anyway and he will get it. Give me the names of your recommendations.
I have had two or three recommendations. Unfortunately these lads who are recommended-I have had two or three in mind- .almost invariably get a better job before I can lay my hands on them in actual operations, .and they will not come back. One of them is now high up, connected with the tactical -air*force; another one was heading a squadron in England and has done marvellous work; he is now in charge of a wing in the proposed invasion. I am going to get a man sooner or later, but I do not want to take anybody to fill the job unless it is possible to get the very best.
This letter explains, as much as a speech would, just the type of man required, and I think the committee will agree with me that this is the type of man we want. It is proposed that he shall be directly under the minister and talk to the minister direct on all these matters. It is a matter of such importance that it becomes the minister's duty and responsibility to look after it himself.

In connection with that, there has been developed in the R.C.A.F., and to some extent in the army, plans for personnel counselling. I do not like the term; "personnel counselling" does not look like the kind of term I want to use, but I cannot find a better one.


Gordon Graydon: And it does not sound like your language, either.


Charles Gavan Power: Well, if I wanted to use high-flown language I could probably call him a "career consultant" or something of the kind.


Gordon Graydon: That is still less like you.


Mr. BRUCE:: Better get a medical man for that job.


Charles Gavan Power: The intention-and we have a plan which is actually in operation-is to help R.C.A.F. men and women to help themselves. Our men and women are not the type who wish to become dependent on any paternalism; they want to stand on their own feet. The R.C.A.F. intends to provide them with information, advice and direction, so that they may be as self-reliant after the war as they have proved themselves to be in combat. We wish to sustain their confidence in us by letting them know that we are interested in them personally and intend to give them every assistance to make good on their own.
The plan is one of consultation and advice. In consultation with every man and woman in the air force, wherever located, advisers will provide facts upon which a career may be planned. Facts will be available on the interests, aptitudes and experience of the person, on the occupations for which he or she is suited, on the opportunities in those occupations, and on the assistance which can be provided right now for making progress toward a chosen objective.. This is not job placement; it is career planning, so that those who take advantage of it may have something of value to offer, instead of being dependent on someone to give them a job.
Many of our airmen have endured the strains and hazards of a long tour of combat. Nothing will help them more to free themselves from the travail of war than a goal toward which they can plan and work. This goal we intend to provide.
The results of the R.C.A.F. plan of personnel selection have been reinterpreted in terms of civil occupations. This enables us to indicate to a man just where he stands, having regard to his ability, aptitudes and training, in relation to men already employed in various professions, occupations and trades. Thus in

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choosing a career he can judge for himself the type of competition he will meet in various vocations.
Many employers have already been contacted, and representative professional, business and industrial groups have been consulted concerning the practical applications of the plan.
One group of consultants have already completed their training. These men and women have all had extensive service in the R.C.A.F., and were selected as having the necessary personal qualifications for this work. They are the vanguard of a larger group of officers who will spread out to R.C.A.F. units, both here and overseas, to aid men and women plan careers.
Educational and technical courses will be provided to suit the career plans. Thus any man or woman can utilize any available time in purposeful activity in keeping with his or her career plan. Many such courses are available; others will be added.
A record of consultation will be provided for each person which will give details concerning the planned career, as well as any progress the person makes while in the service.
Since this deals entirely with the personnel who are still in the service, it falls within the scope of R.C.A.F. responsibility. It is concerned with the welfare of personnel prior to their release to civil life, and hence does not encroach upon the activity of those government departments responsible for rehabilitation and occupational placement.


Gordon Graydon: Are the same privileges and opportunities to apply in equal measure to the army and the navy?


Charles Gavan Power: Oh, yes; I am quite sure they are. We hope that this service will enable R.C.A.F. personnel to take -full advantage of the provisions already made for the purposes of demobilization and rehabilitation.
This looks like a good blueprint. I am not going to guarantee that it will always work. I am putting it forth as a plan and as a blueprint. It should work, if we can get the proper men to do the counselling or the advising or the consulting. But everything along these lines is dependent on the human factor. We might set to work now and during the demobilization period to train a boy to be a lawyer or a doctor. He falls in love with some girl, gets married and decides that he would rather live on his wife's relatives. Where are we then? We have wasted all our time and our money. But it is an attempt to assure these boys that at least we are goirig to try to do something for them.
All this is connected with pre-demobilization training. I am really putting the cart before ' the horse. Repatriation comes first, and in repatriation we have, as I think the committee will readily understand, a very special problem in the R.C.A.F.
First, it is in the character of our boys- which also applies to demobilization. They are young; a great many of them have never had any jobs; they have no real conception of what the struggle of life may be except from what they have learned in their homes; they have no real conception, from personal contacts, of the difficulties of making a living. Repatriation is our difficult point. As I have explained to, the house on many occasions, many more of our boys are in R.A.F. squadrons than are in R.C.A.F. squadrons. We have to get our hands on them before we even think of bringing them home, and that is not so easy, particularly in the midst of operations. We must not interfere with the fellow on operations in order to get our hands on him so as to get him ready to come back to Canada when demobilization comes. We must to a certain extent make plans, though certain plans can be made which will be immediately helpful.
In correspondence with Sir Archibald Sinclair, the Secretary of State for Air in the United Kingdom, and in recent discussions with Captain Balfour, I have come to an agreement on the matter and. as I advised the house some time ago, as will be seen in Hansard, a joint committee of the R.A.F. and the R.C.A.F. has been set up. I did not advise [DOT] the house at that time, however, of the terms of reference proposed by Canada, which have not yet been accepted, though I have reason to believe they will be. The terms are these:
(a)	What methods and procedure should be followed in order to enable the Canadian government to proceed as rapidly and as efficiently as possible with R.C.A.F. repatriation and demobilization?
(b)	What steps can be taken now, and generally during the period, which shall precede the termination of the war against Germany, to bring about a regrouping of R.C.A.F. personnel, so that Canadian demobilization priorities may be made effective at the earliest possible date without injury to the common war effort?
(c)	What methods of procedure are to be followed so that R.C.A.F. personnel serving in R.A.F. units may have equal opportunity with R.C.A.F. personnel who are serving in Canada or in the R.C.A.F. personnel overseas, to take advantage of the Canadian government's plans for repatriation, demobilization and rehabilitation?

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(d)	What methods and procedure should be followed in order to give R.C.A.F. personnel attached to the R.A.F. the benefits of pre-demobilization training and instruction to fit such personnel for civil life in Canada while still attached to the R.A.F.?
We added:
. The committee in their deliberation will be guided by the following principles:
(a)	That there shall be no interference with the most effective prosecution of the war.
(b)	That the highest consideration be given to ensuring to individual officers and airmen every possible opportunity for a successful postwar career.
(c)	That the process of demobilization shall be such as will assist to the greatest extent possible the effective recovery of the domestic economy of each country.
In connection with that, a reciprocal arrangement was entered into with the R.A.F., whereby our boys attached to the R.A.F. would take advantage of such pre-demobilization training as the R.A.F. is giving, and we on the other hand would give their boys attached to the R.C.A.F. such pre-demobilization training and education as we give to our boys.
I can see that this may not always be appropriate or useful. For example, I can hardly conceive that the training in agricultural pursuits given to men intending to settle in Kent or Devonshire, say, would be useful to a Canadian who intends to settle on the prairies or the bushlands of Ontario. Such training would not be of much use to him in the career he expects to undertake in the _ wilder parts of Canada. However, the will is there, the agreement is there, and something is sure to be got out of it.
Having dealt as far as I can with repatriation, in order to give the committee some idea of the difficulties that confront us, let me deal with what really belongs to repatriation, the question of priorities on demobilization. That again should be divided into two parts, priorities by units or groups and priorities by individuals. Priorities by units would apply more readily to the army than to the air force. It is easy enough to say that the first division shall come back first, the second divisoin second, and so forth; but in the air force it is very much more difficult, since the men are so widely scattered, These matters have been and are being discussed, and1 on certain questions no definite decision has been reached.
On the question of priority there appeared to be two distinct problems: Should priority of discharge be given overseas personnel, and should a system of individual priorities be set

up to apply to the service as a whole, with the locus of the individual concerned being only one factor out Of many?
In considering the first of these questions, it is felt that priority of discharge should be given men serving overseas, but in view of the obstacles in the way of such a plan it is not always possible or feasible. The factors involved have been carefully reviewed and a number of them have been set out hereunder for consideration. I may say that this is a report of some of my officers on the subject. It is not a precedent, and I do not want it to create a precedent, whereby reports of officers are made public. But this is a matter in which the public is very widely interested. The public should be interested in the discussion as between different schools of thought before hard and fast rules are made of them, which will be so binding that it will be very difficult to retrace our steps. It is for that reason that I take the committee into my confidence and ask hon. members not to use this as a precedent against me if I say that I cannot produce a document inasmuch as it is a document from an officer of the department to the minister, made in confidence.
The reasons for priority of demobilization for personnel serving overseas are:
(a)	Publio opinion will undoubtedly clamour for preferential treatment for personnel serving overseas.
(b)	Such personnel deserve priority on demobilization and in any plans for reestablishment which may be undertaken by the government or by industry.
(c)	Since they have been separated from their families and generally have been unable to return on leave, they should be given the earliest possible opportunity of reunion.
(d>) Since their' lives and those of their families have been disturbed to a greater degree than is the case with personnel who serve in Canada only, it seems only fair that they be given the opportunity of returning to a normal civilian state. Pending the reorganization of the permanent forces after the war, certain installations and equipment in Canadh must be manned and maintained by service personnel. This will have to be done in the first instance by personnel now discharged, but the troops overseas should be given the first opportunity of doing that work.
I come now to the reasons for demobilization of personnel as soon as available, which is the contrary view:
(a)	Public opinion would be strongly against retaining longer than necessary men conscripted in Canada who have volunteered for overseas service.

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(b)	Personnel in excess of requirements would result in the following additional expense to the country:
Pay and allowances; gratuities or rehabilitation benefits which would increase with the length of service; amounts necessary for subsistence; medical care, et cetera; retention of buildings which should be released for civilian use.
The difficulty of maintaining the morale and discipline of these services in Canada is another matter to be considered. That would have to be considered if they had to wait demobilization of those serving overseas. And' then man-power will be needed for civilian industry and there will be pressure from civilian industry to get at the nearest source of man-power. On the other hand it would be difficult to repatriate the personnel from overseas because it may be difficult to get transport. There would be the problem of shifting personnel from one theatre of war to another when we go toward the Japanese theatre and so on: It may cause innumerable difficulties in the supply of shipping. That is the general system. ' No matter what we do, we must aim at seeing to it that the man from overseas gets preferential treatment in demobilization and in repatriation, but always bearing in mind the fact that there may be difficulties in carrying out that principle as we' have laid it down.
Then, with regard to individual priorities, there is a great difference of opinion. However, I believe two principles can be accepted by all. (a) No individual should be demobilized so long as his retention is essential to service requirements, (b) Personnel desiring delayed demobilization may be retained provided they can be usefully employed and fulfil certain conditions laid down. In connection with that there is, as hon. members know, the point system. The point system was elaborated by the central committee on post-war reconstruction set up by the Conservative and Unionist party in Great Britain in a pamphlet called 'booking Ahead". So far as I know, this point system has not as yet been definitely accepted by the armed services overseas; in fact there is a great deal of opposition to it. I shall quote from it:
In their search for a solution to the many problems which arise from the definition of priorities, the committee has under review a scheme of "points" which is strongly recommended for favourable consideration.
The scheme attaches a specified value to the presence or absence of certain factors influencing the individual case for demobilization. As an example of the working of the scheme, let us suppose it is decided that fifteen per cent of the personnel of a certain unit can be demobilized. The records offices, which would be
given details not normally in their possession, would forward the names of those who had the highest "score" on some such basis as the following-
And here come the points:
-so many points for service on or before certain dates, service overseas, steps of promotion, age group, marriage, number of children, employment immediately available, one-man business, demand for personnel in trade or profession, and interruption of education, with a subtraction of points for desirability of the man's retention in the services.
To operate such a scheme there would have to be close liaison-
Then they go on to show where cooperation takes place. We have had a look at that in an endeavour to apply it to conditions here. Some of the officers have worked out a point system for the R.C.A.F., taking into consideration not all the points mentioned here, but such points as length of service, nature of service and dependent children. I may be boring the committee with all this, but somebody is going to put it on Hansard and it may as well be put there by me. I want the committee to know I am not laying this down as the law of the Medes and Persians. I am saying that these are plans which have been submitted in other parts of the world and are being considered by various departments.


Gordon Graydon: The committee will pay a great deal of attention to what the minister says.


Charles Gavan Power: I hope to get a lot of advice from the committee. It is recommended that value be given to the different factors as follows. We are taking only four of these factors: (a) length of service, one unit for each month of service; (b) age, one unit for each year of age; (c) nature of service (combat service), 25 units; (d) dependent children, five units for first child; ten units for more than one child. Attached is a table. I should like to lay it on the table.
Perhaps the committee will follow the details of one case. Let us take a married man, thirty-five years old, with two dependent children and two-year service. His score would be thirty-five for age, two-year service, one unit for each month, twenty-four; two children, ten units for more than one child, a total of sixty-nine. That is the priority score. Let us take a man thirty-five years old with two dependent children, two years overseas and combat service. You would add twenty-five points for combat service, and his score would be ninety-four. Let us take another example, a married man forty years old with three years' service and no dependent children. He would

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have a score of forty for his age, plus thirty-six for his three-year service, giving him a total score of seventy-six. If the same man had combat service his score would be seventy-six plus twenty-five, or a total of a hundred and one. The scores have been worked out in a number of cases, and if the committee will permit me I shall table it.


Mr. COLDWELL:: I thought the minister gave some points to a man who had a one-man business.


Charles Gavan Power: That is not the Conservative plan.


Major James William Coldwell: You are not considering that?


Charles Gavan Power: My officers have worked it out only on the basis of four different factors. We might work it out on any number of factors. I brought this with me to show the committee how it. would work. If the committee will permit me I shall give the views of the opponents of the point scheme.


Mr. JACKMAN:: How long is the term of enlistment in the air force?


Charles Gavan Power: No term.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: They are in until they are discharged?


Charles Gavan Power: Yes.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Not like the last war?


Charles Gavan Power: No.
There is some opposition which merits serious consideration before we embark on such a plan. The point system is considered unsatisfactory, (1) because it is complicated. Definitions are required for the factors involved. If we mention the factors involved in the Unionist system it will get more and more involved and more and more complicated. We shall need a lot of chartered accountants to add up the score before we get through.


Gordon Graydon: We are short of them now.


Charles Gavan Power: We are short of them now. (2) It is not altogether fair; 725,000 individuals could not be put into about a hundred priority groups without injustice being felt by a very great number. And in my opinion here is where it fails, unless we can find something to improve it. In the middle brackets many thousands of personnel would have about the same points, particularly if you tak* a large number of matters on which you can obtain a score. If you gave the long term people a sufficient number of points they would have an easy lead. You would
fMr Power.]
get a number who would have about the same number of points and then the fighting would begin all over again as between the people in the middle brackets, but there is no provision for priorities among men with the same score. They would have to have pull with Laurier. (3) It discriminates against the veterans' guard and older soldiers, for whom accelerated demobilization would be harmful, in the main, because of special difficulties in rehabilitation, and against the jmunger personnel who have never had civilian employment, or who should complete his schooling without further delay. (4) It reduces speed in discharge, especially if discharge is to be delayed on account of vocational training and other rehabilitation measures. It is felt that the prime factor in demobilization is the successful employment of ex-service personnel. There would be a public outcry against keeping personnel in the services on pay and allowances if by earlier discharge they could get a job and become reestablished.
My own opinion is both points of view should be carefully examined, and I should like to hear from anyone who has any views on the subject. We know what we want to do, namely, to bring those who can be brought home as soon as possible after the hostilities are over. Then give them all the predemobilization training we can, in the most useful way, so as to do the individual the greatest amount of good in his future career. We have plans and blueprints to accomplish this, but, as I said, I will not guarantee that they will all be successful. We must be prepared-and I think this is something to which we should give the utmost consideration- for the immediate let-down, moral and mental, which will attack these boys. They will have been three or four years trained, taught and groomed to one objective, one purpose; and that purpose and objective will be gone. The enemy will have been defeated; they will have completely lost their orientation. Many of them never will have had any other orientation than fighting. An organized body of men solidly knit together to act for one common purpose in this war will, unless we are very careful, suddenly become a mob of individuals each seeking his own objective, if indeed he has any at the moment.
I do not want to be an alarmist, but with the history of developments after the last war imprinted in my mind I fear that we might have mutinies such as we had then. I fear the development of a state of mind which might colour and distort their whole future outlook, and we must try to develop

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some new objective for them. As I said, if we discipline a body of men with a common purpose and objective, to defeat the enemy; then if we go to them and say that each individual will get so much in the way of dollars or so much in the way of treatment; if we develop their purely selfish instincts, the purely materialistic side, then we shall have a panic to see who will get first what is required, and the devil take the hindmost. In other words we cannot and should not promise each individual that everything he desires will be handed to him on a silver platter. Let there be a new order. It matters not what the new order is. It may be the new order of my hon. friends, on a socialistic pattern; it may be a new order on a free enterprise pattern; it may be a new order on the pattern of New Democracy or Social Credit, or it may be a combination of all three.


Gordon Graydon: Don't forget your own Bloc Populaire.


Charles Gavan Power: It may be on the order of the Bloc Populaire. I have no objection to the returning soldier becoming an adherent of any political creed; on the contrary I hope he will, for I want him to be thinking of the future of Canada. I want him to be thinking of the future along the lines of any one of the political.parties represented in this house; for as long as he is thinking of the future of Canada he is doing what I think he should be doing rather than thinking of his own selfish and material interests. It is Canada he has to be working for when he comes back.
It is for this reason that, while I do not disagree with all this work in connection with demobilization and placing a value on each man's services, I think it has little to do with questions of repatriation, rehabilitation and so on. After all I am cynic enough, having been in the house for all these years, to know that he will pretty well get what he wants anyway, out of one political party or the other. If we teach him that he can only get what he "wants by agitation, by thinking of himself and of his own interests, then we make a bad citizen of him.
I should like to try out on this committee some views on this subject which I have tried out elsewhere already, without any response whatever. We should explain to our men that the winning of the war was not the end of all things. I fear that after the last war most of us felt that this was the end, that this was what we had been struggling toward for three years, and that now the job was done. Let us tell our boys that the winning of the war was only the means to assure us and the world
the right to continue unhampered and unimpeded in our peaceful pursuits, that it was only a means to an end, not the end itself. What is the greatest, the most pressing and most important pursuit we can have, if it is not to make our own country great; great in industry, great in agriculture, great in commerce, great in development, and great as a nation? During the course of the last war we were promised material things: "A land fit for heroes to live in," and "On your return Canada will be yours." I fear that we paid too much attention to those material things that were being promised to us and did not pay enough attention to the spiritual side of trying to become a good citizen, and I say that without casting any reflection at all upon those who returned from the last war.
Our boys must be given a new target, some task to look forward to, to soften the impact of the inevitable let-down; and that target must be attacked with all the ambition and all the patriotic fervour of their wartime activity. A great man promised victory in the war through blood, sweat and tears, and we can set another task; the making of Canada, through labour and perseverance and energy. Let the brawn and the brain and the courage of these thousands of young men be turned to the development of their own country, and no nation on God's green earth can equal us. Let us emphasize the spiritual side of the peace-time task at least as much as the material side. When these boys return to Canada this country will be theirs, but theirs to mould, to develop, to build and to make capable of fulfilling its great destiny as a nation. The true glamour of peace must be made to replace the transient glamour of war. We have told our boys what a noble and heroic thing it was to apply themselves to the science of war. Let us tell them what a noble thing it is to apply themselves to the arts of peace. We have taught them how to destroy; let us teach them how to build. They went forth to defend Canada; let them go forth to develop Canada. Let our boys understand that when the last gun has been fired and the last bomb dropped, their task will have only begun. Duties and responsibilities as heavy as those they now bear await them on their return; duties and responsibilities, and opportunities too, if we make them for them, limited only by the great extent of their country and by its vast potential resources, industrial, natural and commercial. They will have conquered a hard, bitter human enemy; they can and will conquer natural obstacles. Let them subjugate the land, exploit the waters and control the air of this country. They will not only have won a livelihood;

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they will have served their country truly and well. Let them not believe for one instant that the end of the war is the end of all things for them. The great adventure of fighting, the hazard of dying for their country will be over, but the greatest adventure, the strenuous one of living for their country, will be only beginning.


Mr. ADAMSON:: The truly excellent statement given by the minister last Tuesday and to-day should fill every member of this house and every Canadian with great pride. The minister mentioned "the effort of the Canadian people as a whole". The success of the air force in all its branches, right from the dull job of the radio mechanic through to that of the bomber pilot, has been due in part to the great spirit of the Canadian people, who know no bounds when they are aroused, and in part to the fact that as far as the air force goes we have yet to see the hand of politics. Unlike the army, an air force officer will seldom if ever tell you his politics. It is difficult to talk very long to an army officer before the subject of politics is discussed.
The staggering information the minister placed on record Tuesday night, showing that the Canadian air effort represented between twenty-two per cent and twenty-five per cent of the aircrew or of the total air effort of the joint British tactical air effort-


Charles Gavan Power: The hon. member should stick to his first expression-aircrew.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Yes, aircrew-is, I say, remarkable.


Mr. MACDONALD (Brantford City):: That is in Europe.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Yes, that is in Europe. But it shows something more; it shows that Canada, with only 12,000,000 people, can produce in a short period of time an air force the equal of, if not superior to that of any other nation. The fact that our squadrons are used extensively on the very difficult job of pathfinding for the bomber squadrons, one requiring the highest degree of skill, shows the degree of technical excellence attained by Canadian aircrew.
The diversification of our air effort was emphasized by the minister. He referred to the radio mechanics, the personnel manning radio location stations, for the bomber command and the fighter command, the Atlantic patrol, the coastal command, the Atlantic air bases for the protection of our own sovereign air, and the bases for the protection of our Pacific coast. The vast variety in numbers and descriptions of our air effort has only begun to be appre-

dated, and I am glad- that for the country's sake the minister has placed the statistics on record.
Our air effort imposes upon Canada a great responsibility, greater than many of us realize. It imposes, too, the responsibility of maintaining ourselves as a great peace-time air power. As the minister pointed out in his speech, as reported at page 1029 of Hansard, a post-war civil aviation committee has been set up. I shall not read the paragraph, but hon. members will find it at the point I have indicated.	'
Our air effort is a combined one. While we have forty-four squadrons of our own, yet the bulk of our effort is that'which is combined with those of the British, Australian, and the other united nations who are operating against the common, enemy. After the war is over, we cannot allow this effort to revert to a purely Canadian one. We shall have our responsibilities to help keep the air lanes of the world free and open. We have probably become, or shall be by the time the war is over, the third largest air power in the world. In point of geography we are located centrally, so far as future civil aviation is concerned. Yet we have attained our position only in conjunction and cooperation with the United' Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand and the other nations of the commonwealth. Had we tried to run the show on our own, we might have met with some success, it would have been greatly reduced.
Our immediate responsibility is to see to it that, from the civilian point of view, our postwar air effort is mapped out in conjunction with the other nations of the commonwealth. We cannot afford not to cooperate with the United Kingdom to the fullest degree in peace time, as we are now doing in war time. If we fail to give this cooperation we shall be relegated to a place not third greatest among the air powers of the world, but to one comparable with our population, and standing away down the list of the world powers. Therefore our first responsibility, in the light of our great air effort in the war, is as I have stated.
The minister mentioned the ratio of casualties to decorations. It is interesting to note that one decoration has been received for every ten casualties inflicted. To my mind this more than anything else shows the efficiency and striking power of our air force. I believe it is much greater than we had expected. Let us remember that every bomber destroyed has carried a crew of from five to ten men, and sometimes more. Accordingly for every large bomber shot down we may say that one decoration has been given. Surely

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this is some indication of the teamwork and heroism of the young men who are dtoing this magnificent job.
I do not believe the committee realizes the magnitude of a single raid against Germany. I shall not speak about groundcrew, but would confine what I have to say to the aircrew organization necessary for a thousand-bomber raid. The number employed equals approximately the number of a division of infantry. Within the space of a few hours that division must be taken into the air, flown 600 miles to within two vertical miles, probably less, of the target, and flown back to the home bases. The staggering cost and the amazing teamwork which goes into that effort cannot be emphasized too greatly.
I should like to make a suggestion to the minister in connection with what he said this afternoon. Up to now our air effort can be considered our major one. Hon. members will be called upon to look after and to provide for the future lives of all those young airmen who each night are risking their lives over Germany. Yet, with I believe one exception, hon. members have not had the actual experience which would give them an understanding of the problems involved. Newspaper men have been given this opportunity. I suggest that certain members be allowed to make an operational flight. We shall be called upon to look after these men when they come back and I think we might have some first-hand experience of the problems they meet daily.
The minister went on to discuss repatriation, demobilization and rehabilitation. He mentioned the difficulties of repatriation and they are probably greater than he intimated. We have members of the air force, such as radio mechanics, who have been located for years in 'distant outposts. These men being in isolated positions have had little opportunity of advancement and they have seen little service apart from their work as technicians. In many instances they are, to use the current expression, "browned off." These men should be among the first to be repatriated because their problem is an extremely difficult one. As the minister has pointed out, we have men in the -operational groups of Royal Air Force. Some of the men, particularly those in the far east, may have to remain in the service for years before they are repatriated.
I agree entirely with what the minister said with regard to the problem of demobilization. There is nothing worse than to keep a soldier in the army with nothing to do after the actual fighting is over. His life becomes useless routine. Every parade, every fatigue,
or every duty that he must undertake becomes an added irritation. Eventually morale decreases and rioting breaks out. I saw some of the rioting that took place in England after the last war because I was in a camp that actually did riot.


Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: Shame!


Agar Rodney Adamson: I expect that the hon. member for Fraser Valley was also in a camp that rioted. It is easy to be carried away by the desire to destroy things, particularly when one has nothing to do. There is the old saying that the devil finds work for idle hands, and that is particularly true in demobilization centres. Demobilization must take place as soon as possible.
There is one psychological angle I-think the minister has overlooked. When this war is over, these men must be able to go into useful work. We must get over any idea that the work provided for -the veterans of this war is to be provided in a spirit of gratitude.* That is the wrong premise to adopt. The work they are to be called upon to do must be work that is useful and essential. If that is not done the same psychology will apply. The men will regard their work as something that has no value. This would prove to be one of the greatest causes of the destruction of the spirit of our service men and it must not happen. There are one or two matters I should like to take up with the Minister of Pensions and National Health (Mr. Mackenzie) when his bills are before him, but now 1 only want to emphasize that the work provided for these men must be useful and essential. That factor must take precedence over all others.
The young men of this war have been trained to take instant action to destroy. That has been their whole fighting training-to destroy the enemy. The question of cost or wastage of material never enters into the problem at all; it is simply a question of kill or be killed.' The opposite rule applies to civilian and commercial life. No matter under what system we operate, cost governs the operation. Our difficulty will be much greater after this war because the personnel are more highly trained. The young man who has been flying a Lancaster bomber with 5,000 horse-power and with his bomb bays filled with weapons capable of creating acres of destruction will not be particularly interested in a repetitive job on an assembly line, or in, shall we say, selling soap retail or any other similar commodity. He will want a job where he can utilize his intellect and it is going to be extremely difficult to provide that job. I think

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the minister was right in bringing up this question this afternoon. If we make promises to the people in the forces to-day and do not carry out those promises we are certainly taking the first step toward revolution.
The minister did not deal with one question, the size of the postwar air force. Naturally he cannot give any specific details, but I think some statement should be made to indicate that an opportunity will be provided for some of the men in the force to maintain themselves in the Royal Canadian Air Force after the war. There should be some statement that after the war we shall not again abandon the arts of war. That statement should be made now. I know it is axiomatic that we shall not do away with the air force, but it must be remembered that after the last war we abolished most of our naval, military and air force establishments. We abolished the Royal Naval College; we very nearly abolished the Royal Military College. There swept over the country a wave of pacificism which laid the seeds of our lack of preparation when this war began.
In conclusion, the minister mentioned what might be called the pragmatic philosophy.


Mr. HOWE:: What is that?


Agar Rodney Adamson: Merely this, that the individual looks after himself and is not interested in the welfare of the state. A purely selfish outlook was preached and practised after the end of the last war, and it led us into the greatest possible amount of difficulty. The old army saying, "So-and-so you, George, I'm all right," became almost the national spirit. We must be careful to avoid similar disillusionment after this war is over; because if at the end of this war we are at the opening of a better era of peace and good order among all nations, yet because we have preached the philosophy of selfishness our men will come out looking for something to get rather than something to serve, and we shall enter into another cycle which may go down into another war, a new depression and chaos even worse than the two we have already seen.


Mr. SINCLAIR:: Mr. Chairman, in rising to speak on the estimates of the Department of National Defence for Air, I wish first to touch on the propriety of a member in uniform speaking on estimates of the department in which he serves.
In the British House of Commons the sharpest criticism and the most helpful suggestions on service matters have come from those who are in uniform. Members of parliament, of course, are expected to speak on subjects of which they have extensive knowledge; and who in this parliament have better

opportunities of acquiring extensive knowledge of the services than those in uniform? In this country, however, there seems to be a desire to restrain or, as I believe the legal word is, to proscribe a member of parliament in uniform from speaking on service matters in this chamber. Actually the very delicate position of a member of parliament in uniform is covered by P.C. 3205, which in the air force becomes air force general order No. 21. The hon. member for Lake Centre, the hon. member for Weyburn, and the hon. member for York-Sunbury at the last sitting of the house discussed to some extent this order as it affects men who hope to be candidates in the next election. I would say that in this respect this order is more generous than the corresponding British order. It is rather with the effect of this order on a member of parliament that I am concerned. Provision is made for adequate and, indeed, very generous leave to attend parliament, provided^ of course, the exigencies of the service permit. If the man is in uniform his first responsibility still must be to the service; otherwise he should resign his commission and return to parliament, if he finds that he has to put parliament ahead of his service when he is in the service. However, a member of parliament who is given this leave is subject to the following restriction, that a person granted leave for this purpose shall not disclose any information of a service nature which he has acquired in the course of his duties as a member of the armed forces. Well, quite frankly I will tell the committee that everything I know about the air force I have learned during the course of my duties in the air force. Quite frankly also I will say that as a member of parliament I do not intend to be restrained or proscribed by anyone outside the walls of this chamber. Therefore, despite this air force general order No. 21, I now propose to discuss the Department of National Defence for Air on the basis of things which I have learned while in the service.
I do not propose to speak on any operational matter in the service. After all, I am a very junior officer and am not qualified to discuss the purpose and the value of strategy which has been planned by the leaders of the service. I know that in this respect I am very much different from the hon. member for Weyburn. I got Hansard all the time I was overseas. Last year's Hansard I got in Sicily. I read it with interest because I was a member. The members of my squadron read it because there was nothing else to read. All of us, however, read with both,

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I may say, amazement and amusement the fact that the hon. member for Weyburn criticized the Dieppe operation on the geographical knowledge which he had acquired in a one-day Cook's tour of Dieppe in 1936 and the military knowledge he had acquired through an honorary chaplain's commission in the militia in peace time. Everyone in the squadron I was with had waded ashore in the invasion of Sicily. None of us felt prepared to discuss even the invasion of Sicily with that operational background, so that the committee will understand what I mean when I say that we were amused and amazed.
I propose, however, to discuss certain of the administrative policies of the Royal Canadian Air Force, because that force is simply another branch of government as far as administration is concerned, and a member of parliament who can criticize, for example, the Department of Labour, as I have done, can criticize or praise the administration of the Royal Canadian Air Force or any other branch of the service.
First of all, I should like to commend the minister. I think I can truthfully say that the minister is the favourite minister of this house, because we know that he has been the driving power behind Canada's greatest single contribution to this war, the joint air training scheme. It is not only for his interest and activity in the operation of the R.C.A.F. that I commend him, but for the very intense personal interest which he takes in the welfare of every single man in the R.C.A.F. I cannot give a better example of that than the speech he has just made on the demobilization and rehabilitation of the men of his service.
The war is of course far from won, but planning ahead to give these young men in the R.C.A.F. some feeling of confidence in what is going to happen to them when the war does end is a very fine thing and most encouraging.
Since my return I have raised a number of 'ssues with the minister and have not always met with success, naturally, but have always met with every consideration.
A week ago in this house I asked a question about the retirement of quite a number of very senior air officers. The minister made a forthright reply, in which he said that the retirement was in no way a slur on any of these officers, but merely to remove what he called a "bottle-neck" or ceiling on promotion for those who had fought in this war and, to use his own words, "who should shortly assume command if the air force is to be the young and virile force which Canada wishes it to be." I am quite sure we all agree with that sentiment. Most of these senior leaders of the air force, however, are veterans of the last war, with distinguished records, who belong to what 100-68
is called the permanent force. The air force is their career. There are also senior officers who belong not to the permanent force but to the auxiliary force, which is the air force militia in peace time, and to the special reserve, citizen soldiers, as most of the air force are. I feel that if retirements are in order these men should be the first to be retired. They should be retired before those in the permanent force, and I say that for two reasons. The permanent force men have no civilian jobs to which they can go. The air force has been their career, whereas the special reserve senior officers must have left very good jobs to qualify for such a high rank at the beginning of the war.
The second reason is a monetary one. When you retire senior air force officers you retire them at a substantial pension, whereas the auxiliary officers go back to civilian life and civilian jobs, without pensions but with a generous gratuity, in their case, of one month's pay.
There is another point about retirements. Just under the ceiling of senior air officers who fought in the last war and have given wonderful leadership to the air force in this war is a layer of officers who were too young for the last war and whose rank was too high to justify sending them overseas in this war. In the rapidly expanding air force their ability and administrative training were of great use in this country. It will be a pity if the retirement of the veterans of the last war results in these men coming to the top. Tens of thousands of aircrew fighting overseas want to be led by men with real operational experience, if not experience in the last war, then experience gained in this one. To my knowledge, there is not an R.C.A.F. airman who has done a tour of operations overseas in this war who has yet achieved a rank higher than group captain. Generally we think of the air force as a keen, young, progressive service and the army is sometimes regarded as Tory-I withdraw that word; I will say as the slower or more reactionary of the services. However, I read with tremendous pride the statement by the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Ralston) on the recent appointment of men leading combatant soldiers overseas, and I wish to put this list on the record:
Age
Major-General Hatching, D.S.0	 33
Brigadier Walsh,	D.S.0	 34
Ziegler		  34
Lane	 34
Booth		 37
Suttie	 34
That is one of the finest tributes that can be paid to the army, to say that they are led



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by men who are making it a "young, virile and dynamic force". I served with the desert air force for about a year, and I believe, as most people overseas believe, that it is the most efficient fighting force in this war. No little part of its success is due to the leadership of Air Vice-Marshal Broadhurst, D.S.O., D.F.C., aged thirty-seven, who has done two full operational tours in this war. Not only has he directed the air force from the control room, but he has led them in battle. He was the first pilot to land in Sicily and the first pilot to land in Italy.
With this in mind I again urge that when those veterans with distinguished records in the last war are retired they be succeeded by men who have done at least one operational tour in this war.
Unlike the army, the air force is an entirely voluntary service. Unlike the army, we do not have a horrid word bandied around in the house but never appearing in Hansard. Every man who joined the air force joined for the duration, to serve wherever the country's enemies are to be found. Every one of them when he enlisted thought he would get overseas and many are disappointed, because of the enormous training establishment which we had set up in the country to bring into fruition the empire air training plan. The minister has announced that the plan is pretty well stabilized, and I should think there is a better chance to get many of these men overseas. Those who have been overseas for a long time would also have a better opportunity to return home.
I commend the minister for the fact that he has kept the Canada badge of the airmen as a symbol of overseas service. Most airmen are prouder to wear "Canada" on their shoulders than the service decoration on their chest, and I hope that at the end of the war every man in the air force will be carrying the name of his country on his shoulder.
May I speak shortly on behalf of Canadians in the Royal Air Force. The minister explained the other night what their status was. These are Canadians who could not get into the R.C.A.F. in peace time because we were so small, and hon. members to the left were obstructing the present Minister of Pensions and National Health when he was trying to expand the war services. These men could not get in just after the war began because our rapidly expanding service set a very high standard. These are the men who went to England on cattle-boats, working their way there in order to join the R.A.F. No single group of Canadians in this war have so gallant a record. Whereas most of the R.C-A.F. did

not start fighting in Europe until 1941, these men started on September 4, 1939, and they have fought in every battle in which the R.A.F. has been engaged-in France, Norway, Britain, Malta, the middle east and the far east. They have paid a very heavy price in casualties and have won great honour for our country.
The minister pointed out that Canada had no connection with them as far as finances are concerned. He went farther and stated that we were not identified with them in any other way. I think we are identified in another way. The early Canadian squadrons overseas were led by these Canadians in the R.A.F., because we did not possess men with that training at that time. The minister two years ago put on record the names of twenty-one men leading the Canadian squadrons. To my knowledge, ten of those twenty-one were Canadians in the R.A.F. I would remind him that his own son in Italy, serves in a Canadian squadron until recently led by one of the most gallant and dauntless of Canadians in the R.A.F., Wing Commander Stan Turner, D.F.C. and bar, of Toronto.
Very distinguished service has also been given to the R.C.A.F. by their present chief of air staff who for a long time served the R.C.A.F. as a Canadian in the R.A.F.


Charles Gavan Power: May I add to what my hon. friend has said. The first squadron that fought as a Canadian squadron, 406 squadron, was composed entirely of Canadians in the R.A.F. and it was called the Canadian R.A.F. squadron in the battle of Britain.


John Ewen Sinclair: I thank the minister for his observation. These men are still Canadians, proud of Canada, and most of them want to serve in the air force of their country. I raised this matter with the minister immediately upon my return. At that time I told him that every Canadian in the IR.C.A.F. wanted his brothers in the R.A.F. back in the R.C.A.F. He pointed out the difficulty to me and it was understandable. The RA.F. did not want to lose these very brave and experienced pilots. I was pleased when he announced in the house that the transfer of Canadians in the R.A.F. back to the R.C.A.F. has now been arranged.
I can tell the committee, however, that not all these Canadians will choose to transfer back. A Canadian in the R.A.F. who has a permanent commission can naturally see a little bigger future after the war in the R.A.F. than in the smaller R.CA.F., and there are other Canadians who will want to stay with the RA.F. for sentimental reasons, because of

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attachments formed, just as many gallant Americans who joined our R.C.A.F. before the war have chosen to stay with their comrades in the R,C.A.F.
This brings me to the matter of members of the R.C.A.F. attached to the R.A.F. squadrons. The minister brought out clearly that a man who joins the R.C.A.F. in Canada is always a member of the R.C.A.F., irrespective of whether he serves with the R.A.F., with the United States air force, the Australian air force or the South African air force, as some did. He is looked after by this country, promoted by this country and paid by this country. There is, however, a feeling throughout the dominion that the R.C.A.F. Canadians with the R.A.F. squadrons are not getting quite as good a deal as if they were in R.C.A.F. squadrons. That may be owing to'the fact that the R.C.A.F. squadrons naturally have had a little more publicity in this country than the R.A.F. squadrons. However, it is very far from the case, I can assure the committee. I have served in both the R.C.A.F. and the R.A.F., and I think I do know a little about this. The young Canadian who is attached to an R.A.F. squadron does at first feel a little at a loss, perhaps a little strange, and he wishes he were with his own countrymen. If I may be permitted to use a parallel, they are very like the young Canadians who went across to Oxford in peace time as Rhodes scholars. The first year they held together in little groups, did not like the climate, or the English, very much, and were not at all backward about saying so. By the third year, however, they had grown to know and like the English. They yielded to none in their devotion to Oxford. The same is true with respect to these Canadians ini the R.A.F. squadrons. Most of them have a very deep devotion for their squadrons, and I can tell hon. members of an incident that will prove it. The Canadian squadron I was with in Tunisia at one time had several casualties. There were no Canadians immediately available in the reserve pool. We were told we could get Canadians from the adjacent R.A.F. squadrons. It was only with the greatest difficulty that we could get those Canadians to come to the one Canadian squadron out there. I tell the committee and through the committee the mothers of the boys who are with R.A.F. squadrons that they are in the very best of hands.
Another point I should like to mention is the status of R.A.F. airmen in R.C.A.F. squadrons. We have heard all about the R.C.A.F. airmen in the R.A.F. squadrons, but the reverse situation also occurs. There are R.A.F. airmen, Englishmen, Scotsmen and Irishmen, in Canadian squadrons overseas. The reason 100-684
for that is a simple one. Those hon. members who are soldiers from the last war know that the sergeant and the sergeant-major are the real backbone of the fighting forces. We undoubtedly had good men in these ranks in peace time, men with long experience; but with the great expansion that took place these men were naturally commissioned in Canada as officers, and therefore we are very short of long-experienced- and tried senior noncommissioned officers and warrant officers. Such is not the case in the R.A.F., for in the R.A.F. many a good warrant officer cannot afford to take a commission. In the R.C.A.F. a man who takes a commission is financially better off. That is as it should be. In the R.A.F. he drops in financial status, and therefore they have a great number of very experienced senior non-commissioned officers and warrant officers who stay in those ranks. The Canadian squadrons overseas needed men like that. In the squadron I have just left there were two R.A.F. warrant officers, an armourer and a fitter, both with fifteen years in the service. They had served in Britain, in the middle east, and in the far east. One of them had gone to Russia with the Hurricane wing. These men were invaluable. They served with Canadian squadrons and they liked serving with Canadian squadrons, but they serve at R.A.F. rates of pay. In the case of a warrant officer that amounts to the pay of a Canadian corporal.
In the Canadian navy I think they do things better than that. They have the same situation. They have key men of the Royal Navy in our destroyers and corvettes, but they pay them Canadian rates of pay. I may be on the wrong wicket here because I notice the minister said that we pay the full cost of the R.C.A.F. squadrons. Does that include R.C.A.F. pay for those R.A.F. men serving in Canadian squadrons?


Charles Gavan Power: Frankly, I do not know; I do not think so, because at the time there were R.A.F. commanding officers with our squadrons, I know they were receiving lower pay than officers of a much lower rank.


John Ewen Sinclair: That is quite true.


Charles Gavan Power: I do not think the non-commissioned officers are paid Canadian rates.


John Ewen Sinclair: I certainly recommend that to him. The number is not large. There are only a few key men in each squadron.
Nothing in the air force has caused more heart-burning and misunderstanding than the commissioning of aircrew. Every member of the committee has heard from his constituents about the commissioning of aircrew. There

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are many who believe that, because of the hazards involved, all aircrew should be commissioned. If you carry that to its logical conclusion then every man in a tank, every man in a submarine, every man in a destroyer, should be commissioned, if the hazard of the occupation is to be the governing factor. If it is to be on what might be called technical skill as a pilot, then every infantryman who is a good marksman should be commissioned. Actually, in the air force as in the navy or the army, the qualifications for commissioned rank are the same-the capacity for leadership and technical knowledge. The young pilot officer of to-day is the potential flight commander, the man who is going to lead a flight or a squadron or a wing, to lead the squadron or wing in battle and be responsible for the lives and the welfare of the fighting men under him.
The one objection of the Canadian air force has never been to commissioning on the basis of a difference of rank; it is rather the Canadian objection to a caste system. Let me explain. Two Lancasters fly side by side to Berlin, one captained by a sergeant-pilot, the other captained by an officer-pilot. They undergo the same hazards, the same strains and they return to the aerodrome. The sergeant-pilot goes to the sergeants' mess; the officer pilot goes to the officers' mess; to use an English cricket expression, a gentlemen's and players' arrangement. In the officers' mess the officer gets better food, better quarters, better opportunity for rest and recreation. There lies the injustice. These boys who are subject to the same strains and the same hazards are entitled to the same opportunities for rest, recreation and food. This was the feeling of Air-Marshal Sir Arthur Coningham, the distinguished New Zealander who led the air forces in the desert. Despite the objection of the British air ministry and, of course, the cult of the old school tie, he turned his officers' messes in the desert air force into aircrew messes, where all members of the aircrew lived. Not only did this break down the caste system, but it had the most helpful effect on the junior aircrew. The sergeant-pilot was not only fighting with the senior officer pilots but living with them and saw every day an example of how he should comport himself, what responsibility he should accept if he expected to be an officer. The best proof I can give of Low successful it is, is the fact that of all but one of the N.C.O. pilots we had in our squadron when we left Egypt had been commissioned by the time /ve reached Tunis. That very high percentage

simply goes to show that these boys learned in an aircrew mess what was expected of them as officers.
I would, therefore, most strongly urge on the minister that he institute a system of aircrew messes in the Canadian squadrons overseas in England and - on the Canadian flying stations. I am not criticizing the wonderful job he has done in the commissioning of aircrews. I tell the committee that the Canadian aircrews have a higher percentage of commissioned men than the R.A.F., the United States air force, the Australian air force or the New Zealand air force. Every Canadian, of course, starts at the rank of sergeant. The aircrews of other countries start at much lower ranks. In Germany, they start in as privates or corporals. I would say, however, that the institution of aircrew messes would break down the last resentment against this caste system, and let every man subject to the strain and hazards of flying have the same opportunities for rest and recreation.
I intend to speak next on overseas leave. The minister has fairly well covered this. While members of the air force join for the duration of the war none of them wants to spend all his time overseas fighting the war without a break. The R.A.F. men do get to their homes between operational tours of flying. The minister announced last fall that after one operational tour and one tour of instruction aircrew would get one month's leave at home. It is not as easy as that. In the R.C.A.F. there is a tremendous backlog of men who have qualified on one tour of operational duty and one tour of instruction, and so the initial load is heavy. The plan is working well. There is a constant flow through Ottawa of men who have done their tour of instruction and are home on a month's leave. I would suggest, however, that the time has come when a tour should be laid down for groundcrew. A year or so ago it was suggested that this tour should be for two years, but that was later cancelled. I believe the groundcrew are entitled to some break in their service overseas, and a chance to come home for a month's furlough. Of all the groundcrew I think the most deserving are those mentioned by my hon. friend, the radio mechanics working in radio location stations in every part of the world; lonely little stations on headlands along the coast, three or four or five men. with a dull routine broken only by occasional attacks by enemy aircraft. These men have lost almost every association with Canada, and certainly they are deserving of the same opportunity for furlough at home as the ordinary groundcrew with R.C.A.F, squadrons.

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I do not propose at this time to deal with
the various suggestions in regard to the rehabilitation of aircrew. The minister has outlined very well to this committee some' of the problems in that connection, and of course the problem of emotional adjustment is the greatest difficulty to be faced in connection with these men. I have, however, one or two suggestions to offer in regard to the employment of aircrew. There is no doubt that a large proportion of the aircrew want to remain in the R.C.A.F. To most of them it is the only job they have ever known. They like flying; they are keen about the air force, and they would like to stay in it. They know, however, that there is not very much hope for a career for many of them in the peace-time R.CA..F. I think we all agree that our permanent force after the war will be at least as large as it was before the war, when it was very small indeed. Since the beginning of the war a number of vacancies have occurred in the permanent force through death, casualties and the retirements which have been instituted by the minister. I feel that these vacancies now should be filled, that our permanent force at least should be kept up to the peace-time strength of about 450 officers, and that vacancies should be filled from the ranks of those brave young men who have had one or two tours of operation overseas. That would relieve some of those young men of their anxiety as to what they are going to do, and would help to keep our permanent force the virile, dynamic unit the minister wants it to be.
My next suggestion has to do with the T.C.A. We have a civil service preference for overseas veterans. I believe that at present there should be a leading preference for employment with T.C.A., both in the air and on the ground, and further that the moment the war ends the preference should be complete, that only men who have flown overseas or served on the ground may qualify as pilots and ground-crew with T.C.A. There is, of course, the suggestion, which is carefully fostered, that these bomber boys are not qualified to be T.C.A. pilots. The T.C.A. pilot takes a twin-engined machine, with a good safe load, off a good safe aerodrome fully equipped with lights and all other aids to flying, with every meteorological aid and help, and lands it on another nicely laid out aerodrome, complete with lights, radio beams and all the rest of it. The bomber boy takes a heavily laden four-engine bomber off a dimly lit field, without any of the aids to be found on the fields in this country; the moment he crosses the Dutch coast he Hies through zones of flak and rockets and searchlights and enemy fighters. He has almost no artificial navigation aids, no radio
beam, no lights or anything else. He takes his aircraft to the target and returns, perhaps with his craft crippled and with injured crewmen; he fights every mile of the long way there and back again, finds that dimly lit aerodrome in England and lands his plane. Comparison of a T.C.A. pilot with a bomber boy puts the T.C.A. pilot pretty much on the level of a bus driver. My point is that those who carry the bombs in this war can carry the mail in peace time. I might go a little farther than that. After the war most of our first-class mail wall be carried by air; and the private companies which get mail contracts should be bound by the same conditions, that their pilots and groundcrew, for at least a good period after the war, shall be men of the R.C.A.F.
I mentioned the preference given to overseas veterans as far as civil service employment is concerned. With regard to the women in our armed services, very few of them will have the chance to serve overseas, but they left comfortable lives and good homes to undergo barrack-room life in the services in order to relieve men for fighting jobs, and certainly these girls are deserving of civil service preference. I urge the minister to use his influence with the civil service commission to see that the women of the R.C.A.F. receive the civil service preference after the war, whether or not they served outside Canada.
In the course of a previous speech in this house I mentioned the special problems of rehabilitation in connection with aircrew, getting them to settle down after the intense excitement and hardship and to return to the dull and often monotonous civilian life in Canada. There is one group of aircrew, however, who deserve special consideration; I refer to those who are now prisoners of war in Germany. Of course the greatest percentage of all our prisoners are aircrew boys, shot down in bombers and fighters over Europe. These men were catapulted from a life of extreme excitement into one of deadliest monotony. The very dreariness of their present lives, the shortage of food and recreation, is undoubtedly deeply affecting them. Their hopes are kept alive by two things: first, by letters and parcels from home and, second, by the fact that to-night, and every night, in prison camps across Germany, in tents and in barracks, our Canadians are listening for just one thing, the distant thunder of our bombers coming back to blast Germany and speed their day of liberation. While Canadian airmen overseas know that the problem of rehabilitation is going to be difficult for aircrew, every man overseas feels that his comrades in the prison camps are entitled to the very best break this country can give them. Certainly they are a very special class.

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I think every hon. member swelled with pride when the minister recounted in detail the very great achievements of our lads in the R.C.A.F. overseas. Our objective in this house should be to see to it that when these lads return they will swell with as much pride because of what we have done for the country in their absence.


Frédéric Dorion: Of the three armed services the air force is the one in which I am particularly interested, because I have always had the keenest memories of my stay in that corps, in which I served overseas in 1918. At that time aviation was in its infancy, but even then the spirit of adventure, the companionship and the fine esprit de corps which existed among the men made it the finest corps in which one could serve. To-day, when I am asked to advise young people as to the choice they should make when they decide to enlist, I always recommend the air force.
While listening last evening with a great deal of interest to the speech delivered by the minister I was particularly impressed with the development of this service in the last three years. I could not refrain, however, from deploring the fact that notwithstanding such a brilliant achievement we as Canadians unfortunately cannot be too proud of the actual situation in regard to our air force overseas. We learn that thousands of our airmen are mingled in the great British melting-pot with Czechs, Poles, Belgians, Free French and so on. I quote from page 1034 of Hansard of last night:
With regard to aircrew, that is men who fly. the situation is different, and our proportionate strength to that of the Royal Air Force is very much higher. I have not the exact figures for overseas. I know, however, that Canada is now, and has been for many months, the largest and principal producer of aircrew for all the commonwealth forces.
And further:
But with the best information I can obtain, I should say that from 22 per cent to 25 per cent of all the aircrew in the European and Mediterranean areas under British tactical command-and this includes British, New Zealanders. Australians, Poles, Czechs, Norwegians. Belgians and Free French-are Capa-dian boys, enlisted in Canada, trained in Canada, paid for by Canadians. That proportion will tend to increase rather than decrease as the men whom we have overseas proceed through their final courses to the operational squadrons,
* until Canadians comprise about one-third of the total content of these British-dominion-allied aircrew strength.
What is the reason given by the minister for such a state of affairs? What is the explanation for not having all our airmen serving in the R.C.A.F. under a Canadian command and in Canadian squadrons? We find
[Mr- Sinclair.]
the answer in the minister's speech as it appears at page 1033 of Hansard as follows:
With respect to the other category of Royal Canadian Air Force airmen attached to the Royal Air Force, namely aircrew, they are not in Royal Canadian Air Force squadrons because there are not now, nor likely ever will be, enough Royal Canadian Air Force squadrons to fit them into. These aircrew, flying men, are widely dispersed throughout Royal Air Force squadrons.
And then, further on:
There are not nearly so many Canadian aircrew in Royal Canadian Air Force squadrons as there are scattered throughout the Royal Air Force. I have been asked many times why all Canadians are not in Canadian squadrons. The answer is that if all Canadian flying men were in Canadian squadrons we would require not thousands, as we have, but well over a hundred thousand grounderew for the maintenance and service of these squadrons and their equipment.
And here comes the most amazing, and, I believe, the most important question the minister will have to answer to the people of Canada. If we have not as many squadrons as we could or should have, because of a lack of grounderew, why is it the government has decided to stop the recruitment of ground-crew? This is what the minister is reported to have said at page 1027 of Hansard!
We have reached a phase in our war-time existence, as far as the air force is concerned, which marks the end of one part, and an important part, of our work, namely the air training.
And again at page 1028
This reduction from requirements of previous years, is largely due to the fact that ground-crew requirements have been stabilized.
And yet, Mr. Chairman, we see by some of the minister's words that he had to fight to get the forty-two squadrons we have overseas. Then, quoting again from page 1034 of Hansard:
Besides, the joint air training plan was intended only for the purpose of producing aircrew. It was never intended under the original agreement that we should send any grounderew over to the United Kingdom. It was considered that if Canada set up the ground establishment in Canada to train flyers, and that meant employment of over 150,000 people on the ground, it would have done its share in the air war effort by sending the trained flying personnel overseas to fight as member of the commonwealth air forces in any of the commonwealth units anywhere. But because we desired further identification of our forces, and because -we had some of the best mechanics and ground-crews in the world, eager and ready to proceed overseas, we set up these overseas air squadrons, and personally I am exceedingly proud of the action we did take.

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And I quite agree with the minister when
he says this:
To judge by the paucity of public information carried in the British and American press, and in official statements and communiques with respect , to the thousands of our men in the Royal Air Force, I should judge that if we had not had these squadrons of our own, even the people of Canada, not to speak of our allies and partners, would have been almost totally ignorant of the large and important part Canada is playing in the air war and the defeat of Germany.
But why not continue the same Canadian policy? Why stop sending groundcrew overseas? Why not endeavour to form as many Canadian squadrons as possible? Must we deduce that the government is satisfied with this situation? Must we believe that some new unknown agreement has taken place in virtue of which the British, air force must keep its standing at the expense of Canadian airmen? Why always have Canadians in all the services performed the most difficult task, when others keep to their fireplaces? Why must we furnish the men to do the real fighting, when every day, from press dispatches throughout the world, we are told that it is the Britishers who do the job?
Why not incorporate British groundcrews in Canadian squadrons, instead of training Canadian airmen to form British squadrons? Does the answer not reside in the fact that we are always, and must always be the colonials, useful only to pay tribute to the mother country? Is this not the best evidence that we are coming back to the status of a colony, and that notwithstanding the many declarations made lately by members of the government, we are accomplishing exactly the wishes of those who, like Lord Halifax, want the dominions to disappear as independent units? Every Canadian is proud of being a Canadian, but I urge the government not to deceive the people, because I am afraid of the reactions which may follow.
(Translation):	Mr. Chairman, I have but
one word to add to what I have just said. I should like the Minister of National Defence for Air to explain how it is, and I deplore the fact-that Quebec has been chosen as the first city where air force training schools are to be closed. It is often reported in the press, and unfortunately all too often and unfairly in this house, that enlistments are not as numerous as they should be in the province of Quebec. But if young French Canadians are not afforded the opportunity to enlist in those services which they might like to enter-and as I said at the outset, the air force is the one which our young men prefer-if they are
deprived of facilities for enlistment in that air force through the closing of schools operated in our province, there may still be more reasons for deploring the fact that voluntary enlistments are not as numerous as they should be. That is why I ask the Minister of National Defence for Air, before any decision is taken, whether some action might not be taken to prevent the closing of those schools and keep them open for the benefit of the people who live in the Quebec district.
(Text) Mr. BRUCE: I wish first of all .to congratulate the Minister of National Defence for Air upon the brilliant presentation of his report respecting the activities of the air force both overseas and in Canada in this time of war. Hon. members will agree that the minister had a wonderful subject, but it will also be realized that he has taken full advantage of that subject to give us an extraordinarily interesting account of the exploits of our young men overseas, exploits which have filled all of us with pride and gratification.
For a moment I should like to speak about the medical service which he has established for the airmen. All hon. members will appreciate the fact that there are many conditions affecting airmen which are quite different from those which affect the ordinary soldier on the ground. Therefore it has been necessary to have men specially trained in the problems and requirements peculiar to our aircrew by work in laboratories and by taking special medical courses in universities in England and Canada. We know that Sir Frederick Banting did a great deal of valuable experimental work in the Banting institute in Toronto to determine the effect of high altitudes on the heart and blood pressure. The result of his investigations has proven of great advantage to members of the air force.
I disagree with the hon. member for Renfrew South who advocated having one medical service for the three branches of defence. I think it was a wise decision as far as the air force was concerned to have a medical service separate from the general medical service responsible for our army. The same comment could be made in connection with the naval medical service.
The minister was very fortunate in his selection some years ago of a head for his medical service. Perhaps I should not say that he was fortunate but rather that he showed a good deal of judgment and wisdom by selecting a gentleman by the name of Ryan to head that service here. I do not know what his rank was when he was serving in England,

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Where he had a large experience in the special problems associated with flying, but he was made an air commodore when he was put in charge of the air medical service in Canada. He laid the foundation for a medical service in Canada which is unsurpassed, if equalled in any part of the world.
He was followed by Doctor Tice who had been associated with him in the air medical service for some years. Air Commodore Tice, as he is now known, has continued the work and has given equally good service as head of the air medical department. I want to commend the minister also for a recent appointment he has made. I refer to Wing Commander or Group Captain Clark Noble. This gentleman served in the air establishments in Montreal, in the west and in other places. He has had a considerable experience in this work which has been superimposed upon an excellent education in medicine. He was one of the leading physicians in our city for some years after completing a distinguished postgraduate course in England. I commend the minister for his selection of Group Captain Noble as head of the air force medical service in England.
The minister referred to {he desirability of having somebody to advise officers and men as to what their future work should be. He referred to these men as personnel consultants, and I am going to suggest that in selecting a head of this organization he could not do better than to pick out a medical man. The whole training in medicine is such as to-qualify a man for such a post. The other evening we heard that there are sixty-three psychiatrists in the army, and I do not know how many there are in the air force. I suggest that one of these psychiatrists would do very well as an adviser to these young men as to their future professions or activities.
Some years ago I visited the dean of the medical faculty of Columbia university in New York city. I found him engaged in a job very similar to that which the minister indicates will have to be done on demobilization. The dean was interviewing prospective students. No matter how high his examination rating had been, each student was interrogated carefully by the dean of the medical faculty to see whether he should enter the profession of medicine. Everyone who thinks he would like to be a doctor is not qualified by training or aptitude for that profession, and I assume the same may be said of law and the other professions. It is quite clear that these young men will need advice, and I think the minister is quite wise in suggesting that there should be somebody to direct them on demobilization.

During the long period of waiting in England or elsewhere for demobilization will provision be made to educate these young men along the lines they hope to follow as their life work?


Charles Gavan Power: Yes.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: That is very important. I have nothing but praise for the wonderful work of the air force. I should like also to say a word of praise for the admirable way in which the minister has presented the work of the Royal Canadian Air Force to this committee.
I have just one other word to say arising out of the report given a couple of nights ago by the Postmaster General (Mr. Mulock) as to the time it takes to get letters overseas. I have received a considerable number of letters from parents and others complaining about the length of time it takes a letter to get across to our forces in England and the Mediterranean. As a consequence, I went to the base post office to make my own investigation of how the mail was handled and whether they were doing their work properly. After a careful inspection lasting an hour and a half I concluded that the service was entirely efficient and that any delay in the mails was not the fault of the base post office in Ottawa.
I recollected having seen an item in the press on this subject some time before Christmas, and upon looking it up found that on December 4 the minister stated that it was planned to operate two flights a week from Ottawa to the United Kingdom and as many each week as might be necessary from the United Kingdom to the Mediterranean area or wherever routes might be justified. The minister stated:
The service was set up because of the length of time it took ordinary mail to reach men on the active fronts. Mail to soldiers iif Italy and the middle east was running as much as two months behind time. Realizing that letters from home provided the biggest kind of boost to morale, the R.C.A.F. undertook to get the service going.
I appreciate the difficulties faced by the minister, and I bring this up now simply to give him an opportunity of reassuring us that that service will soon be established.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


Mr. CHURCH:: The statement which was made last Tuesday by the minister is one of the most comprehensive that we have had. I come here from the Toronto district, the most air-minded city, in two wars, in the

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dominion. The minister has had a long connection with that city, covering two wars. I do not know whether he is looking for a seat, but I know that many airmen up there are with him. I wish also to compliment his desk-mate and parliamentary assistant (Mr. Macmillan), who has shown great efficiency and has rendered splendid service, when the minister has been overseas, to private members of the house.
Starting from scratch on land, sea and in the air, after complete disarmament, Canada, with the air training plan and especially with lease-lend, has made a very real contribution in this *war. There is no doubt about that. Many mistakes have been made, but they are made in every war. I was glad to hear the gracious reference to members of this house who have suffered the loss of their sons. In the British House of Commons fifty-six memebrs of parliament have made the supreme sacrifice so far in this war, and also many of their sons with them. What saved the world in 1940 were those glorious young men, some from Canada, who went up in the air in the battle of Britain by night and by day, from dawn to dusk, and sometimes for twenty-four hours a day. They saved the mother country, and we owe our very existence as an empire to those young airmen. Had it not been for them the war would have been over a few months afterwards, and for all we know both the United States and Canada would have been compelled to make peace with the axis powers. Not only were the losses of the air force in the battle of Britain very heavy in deaths, but those who are wounded will never be the same. How many of them will live tolerable lives again? It is the duty of the country to fulfil its obligations to these young men and not to allow a repetition of what happened after the last war.
In the period between the two wars that I have been a member of this house I have consistently supported, I am glad to say, rearmament on land, on sea, and in the air. In March, 1938, I pointed out to the house the very grave danger which this country, especially Quebec, the maritime provinces and the Pacific province, would be in if war came. We had ample notice of what was likely to happen. Speaking in this chamber on March 24, 1938, in support of an increased vote for air *defence, I said, as reported in Hansard on pages 1662 and 1663:
There is not only the possibility but a great probability that air raids will occur in the next war in which Canada is involved. The defence of our population from air raids should be considered. These raids will be the chief source of danger in all future wars, and we shall be living in a false paradise if we do not adopt 100-69
measures to protect ourselves. Abyssinia was recently a theatre of war, and we all know the destruction of civilian population that occurred through this means of attack. Abyssinia is an open country with only a small density of population as compared with what there is on the island of Montreal and in other parts of Canada, and yet great damage resulted.
Air. raids can work great havoc in time of war, and the menace will be a very real one in Canada, especially to the people of Quebec, the maritimes and British Columbia.
. . . An aerial bombardment is one of the dangers most to be apprehended in time of war, particularly in large cities with their dense populations; the protection of cities from aerial bombardment should be one of the chief objectives of the national defence department, and proper equipment for defence against this menace should be provided. . . .
Large quantities of poisonous gas could easily be spread over a large area as was done in Abyssinia, and incendiary bombs dropped on our large cities, with great destruction and slaughter, and the enemy aircraft could get back to their base in practically no time. These attacks would not only bring ruin to our cities and towns but break the morale of our people and prevent us from developing a proper defence and mobilizing our man-power and armaments.
That happened to be true in this war in relation to the people of Canada. Since the minister this session presented his comprehensive statement last Tuesday there is very little which needs be said. It is a splendid statement, in respect of those who have enlisted, the tabulations which have been given, and the estimates for the coming year. We all realize that since the statement of last year there has been a vast improvement in the war situation. True it is that during the battle of the Atlantic a year ago we faced some critical periods, and the result wavered in the balance until we had the union of sea power, air power, and land forces. Sea power alone can never bring us victory. Sea power means the power to use the seas and to deny their use to our enemies. I do not suppose that commerce will ever entirely leave the sea and take to the air. The balance of power will continue to be a necessary policy, as it has been in Europe for the past three or four centuries. It is just as essential to our future well-being as it was in the days of Philip of Spain, of Napoleon; and in our generation, twice, under the menace of Emperor William and Hitler, it remains of supreme importance.
There are some principles which I think should be considered in connection with our air policy in the near future. The war is far from being won. We have not yet penetrated Germany's defences. There has been an improvement in the Mediterranean situation, thanks to the glorious advance across the desert for nearly three thousand miles



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which was made under those great generals, Alexander and Montgomery, when air power came to the support of the army and helped to restore the supremacy of sea power in the Mediterranean. In the advance through Italy sea transport is needed and sea power is as necessary as ever, but sea power, which Britain has maintained since the time of Napoleon, cannot alone win the present war. The part taken by airmen and the army in the Mediterranean has been most important and gratifying and has given new courage and heart to the peoples of the world.
Since the minister presented his estimates last year we have seen not only on the Atlantic ocean but in the Mediterranean the union of sea and air power and land forces. Remember that the land forces are just as essential as they were in the first two or three years of the war, when all over the United States they were ridiculing the British Tommy in the early days of the war; but the British'army saved the situation, not only in Africa, in the Mediterranean and in Italy but by taking possession of Iceland and other bases in the Atlantic, because there is no doubt that had Germany gained supremacy in the battle of the Atlantic, before we got some control over the U-boats, before we had an umbrella in the air over our sea power, the consequences would have been most disastrous to America. Thanks, however, to the glorious achievements of our airmen in aiding sea power and convoys, the battle of the Atlantic has turned in our favour and the U-boat has practically retired. Neither ships nor aeroplanes can operate without the possession of air bases, and these must be held by land forces. Their possession was a very fortunate circumstance for us during the Atlantic operations.
Air power cannot be a substitute for sea power until the air can replace the sea as a medium for the conveyance of the world's commerce. Air forces, like sea and land forces, are instruments of sea power, and so each finds its proper use.
I wish to refer in conclusion to one or two other matters. The last one is ini regard to the necessity of utilizing the lessons of this war and applying them in the coming d!ays of peace. If we do not, this magnificent body of young men of the air will suffer from unemployment after the war.
I wish to call the attention of the committee to the situation in the Pacific. I have here a map which I will send to the minister, showing the danger to which the empire is exposed, which danger will continue even after the German war is over. That danger lies in the

Pacific. I find an interesting article and map in the National Review of February, 1944, in connection with air travel. It is pointed out that the war with Japan may go on for four years after hostilities have been concluded with Germany. The Japanese are hopping from island to island, and the Japanese fleet and air force are as yet an unknown quantity in this war.
There is one phase of the situation to which I should like to refer as I did on July 15 last. It may come only partly under the minister's department, but I submit that it is necessary to have an empire air policy after the war if we are not to surrender our privileges to our brave allies, friends and kinsmen to the south. There has been a long debate in the British House of Commons on the question of air travel and an all-red empire air policy, and the matter is also receiving close attention in New Zealand and Australia. On January 19 last, Mr. Curtin and Mr. Fraser, the two great prime ministers in the southern Pacific, representing the sister dominions of Australia and New Zealand, who met on a union defence screen policy in the air in the Pacific, made an appeal to Canada, and I suggest that it should not go unnoticed. I quote what Mr. Courtenay, special correspondent of the Sunday Times, said in his dispatch from Canberra on January 16 last:
It is not generally realized at home that America has a Pacific air route which is marvellously well organized. On the day after war ends the same pilots, planes, aircrews, ground organization, wireless and meteorological services will be available to begin commercial air services between Canada, America, Australia, and New Zealand.
The British empire will not be in this lucrative traffic because nowhere on the Pacific route during war is there one British plane, pilot, meteorological expert or radio operator. Unless Britain places aircrews on this route in 1944 she will be left at the post as far as experience and good will of services go, if peace comes in 1945.
The Americans have not got this tremendous hold over Pacific air routes by accident. They have got it by enterprise and drive at a time when we were fighting for our lives against huge odds. They are backed by their government in this and in all other commercial expansion. They make every concession to would-be travellers on their air routes even to carrying them free.
He goes on to refer to the meeting on January 13 between the prime ministers of Australia and New Zealand on the question of defence in the Pacific, and the necessity of Canada also and Britain doing something immediately to solve this great problem of our era, not only for the benefit of the British empire but for the peace and security of the world.

War Appropriation-Air Services
The minister for the army last Tuesday brought down for me certain tables with regard to pay in the army, the navy and the air force. I would point out that there are many air inequalities in these tables, reading right across the list, from those at the top down to aircraftsmen or privates, in connection with subsistence allowance, dependents' allowance for wife and one child, quarters and so on. I appeal for better treatment of these low paid men in the air force and the navy. The cost of living is just as high for them and their families as it is for people in the higher brackets and something should be done to alleviate their condition. Nothing has been done for them, however, in the past twelve months except to move them from $1.30 to $1.50, and they did not dll get that. The time has come when some committee should take this matter into consideration. There should be equality of pay, putting these people on an equal footing with those of corresponding status in the forces of the United States. Questions in regard to cost of living bonus for dependents and other matters of that kind-holidays and so on-will be discussed later on. In the meantime, I regret to see that nothing is being done with regard to a national system of soldier insurance I have been advocating since this war began.
We have heard a great deal about the wonderful bank that is being set up. Every one, I suppose, will get some assistance from it, but it seems that a great deal more has been said about this bank since some industrial ridings went against the government in August last in the Ontario elections. Heretofore these industrial workers were forgotten; now they are being considered. I would remind the government that a large number of these young air people come from the industrial ridings. They have joined the army, the air force and the navy, and they should, I submit to the minister, be given some consideration in the form of a national insurance policy for all soldiers and their dependents, and to provide for them for three years after the war. It was shown in the last war, so far as the United States is concerned, that large sums of money can be saved in pensions and other aids to soldiers by a national system of insurance for soldiers. I have referred to this matter, and to other questions such as cost of living bonus, for four or five years, but little progress has been made.
I wish to compliment the minister upon the wonderful record of achievement of our air force overseas. I am sorry to see the casualties it has suffered. Sometimes I think in Canada in training camps a civilian inquest would do a great deal of good in some of the 100-69J
cities and towns, because it would tend to clear up the inequalities that exist and to check the carelessness, if any, that now prevails. The Canadian army on land, on sea and in the air is a citizen's army, and I contend that when men join the forces they should not lose all their civilian status as' a result of enlisting. Every man who enlists should retain all the rights and privileges which he enjoys as a citizen. For that reason I hope the minister will see his way clear next year, in urgent cases, to allow a civilian inquest to be held as in the past.


Mr. LACOMBE (Translation):: Mr. Chairman, in his remarks the Minister of National Defence for Air (Mr. Power) has said how greatly important he considers the rehabilitation of our airmen. When the conflict comes to an end, our air heroes will have to be given the full measure of justice and assistance to which they, together with the members of our army and navy, shall be entitled. Canada, having been able to find money to train them for war, could not shirk the duty devolved upon her to equip those young men for civilian life. It is said that foresight is the essence of government. Let us foresee the post-war period, when countless difficulties will arise on all sides. We shall then have to find for the members of our armed forces occupations worthy of them. There are some who wish that demobilization might be held up until several months after the armistice. I am against such a suggestion. Any delay would be fatal to the spirit of enterprise and reconstruction which will have to be greatly stimulated. The future of Canada and her vital interests will then be our best guide. I wish to quote the following excerpt which I find in the February, 1944, issue of "Canada at War", page 23:
So impressive has been the success of the plan that Canada has been referred to as "the airdrome of democracy". The R.C.A.F. is responsible for administration of the B.C.A.T.P. and for provision of its instructors.
There were only 169 pupils in the first classes 50 pilots, 44 observers and 75 wireless operators. However, air schools and flying stations sprang up all over Canada until 154 were in operation, more than twice as many as the 74 originally estimated as being required for the programme.
Ten thousand training planes flew an average of 2,000,000 miles daily to produce the still expanding force of 50,000 aircrew graduates- enough to man 15,000 combat aircraft. More than 80,000 men have had special training in grounderew trades.
Mr. Chairman, is it not obvious that I was right in stating a few moments ago, that the demobilization of our army should be undergone as carefully and speedily as possible as

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soon as the war is over. For that purpose, the government should immediately order the holding of an investigation about the equipment of our three armed services, the value and the capacity of the buildings taken over by them, the buildings used by war industries, so as to protect the nation's economy which is already threatened by war and its aftermath.


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: I am sure we were thrilled at hearing the narration which was given by the minister Tuesday night and to-day, tellmg us of the exploits of the airmen, not only in the air and over the sea, but in the training centres as well. We learned that they were capable of going up high and coming down heavy; that they were capable of doing the dangerous thing and the hard thing.
I should like to tell the minister to-night that I received a commission from two aunts to tell him that they were also capable of doing the kind thing in helping to bind up the broken spirit. Twice last year I asked that the silver cross be given to the next of kin; that when a young single man's mother died the next of kin should receive the silver cross. These relatives received the silver cross and they asked me to thank the minister and those associated with him for that.
I should also like to tell the minister that a number of young pilots from the head of the lakes asked me-they did not call him the minister, or the Hon. C. G.; they just called him plain Chubby Power-to tell him that we can trust him; that he is doing a great job, and let him take the bumps with the calms and we shall see that he gets a great ride after the war.
I have a question to ask with respect to the giving of the silver cross. How are they distributed; how are they sent out? If the minister cannot answer that, perhaps his parliamentary assistant can. On behalf of the recipients of these crosses I thank the minister for sending them out.


Gordon Graydon: I have no desire to take up much of the time of the committee at the moment, but one or two matters arising out of the minister's statement I think deserve an observation or two. One of the matters which struck me most forcibly in connection with his lucid and clear exposition with regard to the air force was that in his remarks he was very frank and very fair. I wish to say to the committee, to the minister and to the government that it is an indication of how a government can cooperate with an opposition. It is not a very easy thing-and I think most people recognize it- to carry on government in war time. On the other hand, it is not a very easy thing to carry on opposition in war time

either, because both of them have difficulties, which the minister only too well knows. But cooperation, so far as governments and opposition are concerned, cannot be just a one-way street. In his frank and open statement the minister has shown a spirit of cooperation so far as the opposition is concerned. I think he has made it a little easier for us, because, after all, we are anxious to do a job for the people of Canada within the confines of our duty and obligation in this house.
The minister's clear references and frank statement have been of considerable help to us. His statement was, shall I say, not too long, but it was filled with the usual simplicity of language and clarity of expression that one associates with him. Having said that about the minister, I think perhaps that is all he can expect, and he may feel that is all he deserves.


Charles Gavan Power: It is a little more.
' Mr. GRAYDON: In any event the story of the Royal Canadian Air Force, their daring exploits and the great successes which he chronicled in his statement on Tuesday night and to-day indicate, I think, that the young generation of Canada, as was the case with the previous war-time generations, is living up to the very best traditions of Canada. We used to hear it said that the new generation was not quite as good as the old. I think the minister's statement of Tuesday and to-day would indicate that if we of the previous generation, if you like to call us that, had measured up to the standards which those of the present generation are setting overseas and in every theatre of war we could look back with perhaps more pride and perhaps deserve more tributes than we have received.
When we speak of Canada's future in aviation and in the air generally, if the achievements to which the minister referred can be accomplished in time of war it would appear to me and to the members of the committee generally that when the war has been concluded there is no reason why, if Canada is standing on the top rung of the ladder in the air in war, she should not turn the tremendous assets that she has in man-power and material to achieving similar success on the air routes of the world in civil aviation in peace time. By the utilization of the man-power, both aircrew and groundcrew, we have seen what accomplishments we can bring about in war time. Those achievements indicate to us what is possible in time of peace. The transition from war to peace in so far as the air force is concerned constitutes an entirely different problem from that of the other two branches of the service, for this reason, that the utilization of the men and women, if you like, in

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the air force by civil aviation will follow along perhaps with less interruption in many instances than the change from war to peace in the other two branches. I think we should utilize to the fullest possible degree the men who have been trained in aviation, the men who have by virtue of their experience in war so much to contribute to this nation in the development of our position in so far as civilization in an international way is concerned. Therefore I hope that during this discussion the minister may indicate the policy of the government in making that change from war to peace in regard to at least a good proportion of those who have accomplished so much in the air during this war-time period.
I should like to mention a matter which was dealt with also by the hon. member for Vancouver North, and which I bring up again only because perhaps it needs some emphasis. I hope the chairman of the committee will not ask me to lay on the table the document I propose to read, because I shall read it only in order to bring to the minister's attention one point. I am referring to a letter I received just the day before yesterday from a fine boy who lived in my constituency and whom I have watched grow up until now he is a mature man. He has been in the air force for a considerable time and has been overseas for I am not sure how long but at least for a good many months. This letter is dated February 17, and in it he says that he had hoped to get home some time this summer on the month's le'ave that aircrew are supposed to get after completing a tour of operations and six months of instructional duties. However, he says the system does not seem to be operating as well as it should and that this is causing quite a lot of dissatisfaction among the men. He says also that most of the boys feel that instead of doing their instructional work in England they should be allowed to perform that work in the schools at home. The letter concludes with a reference which makes me feel very proud. This boy speaks of his pride in belonging to an organization which in spite of terrific handicaps has conquered the air lanes of this war, and whose members have marked "paid" on many outstanding nazi accounts. I have referred to this letter particularly to bring to the minister's attention this matter in regard to leave, which was so well put by the hon. member for Vancouver North this afternoon.
I also want to bring to the minister's attention the position of the women's division of the Royal Canadian Air Force. I have had brought to my attention on many occasions, particularly in correspondence both from this country and from overseas, the question of equality of pay for women in the services. I
raised this question with regard to the Canadian Women's Army Corps when the army appropriations were under consideration, and I raise it again now in the hope that the minister, who has a full knowledge of the situation, will give the matter his serious consideration, so that in the air force, and perhaps in the other branches of the services as well, eventually we may have that equality to which people seem to render lip-service as far as civilian life is concerned, but which somehow never seems to quite materialize as far as our women go.
I do not wish to be unduly critical of the *minister, but I should like to have him give the situation his most careful attention so that we may have an approach to equality of pay.
There is another matter I should like to mention which I think peculiarly affects the air force and perhaps does not apply in the same way to the other branches of the armed services. I am told by members of the air force that in this branch, unlike some of the other services, allowance is not made for travelling time when leave is granted. To give an example, an airman in British Columbia is given leave for two or three weeks to visit his home in Ontario. Out of that leave he must spend four days coming and four days returning, making a total of eight days which should not be taken out of his three weeks' leave. It may be that there are reasons for this practice being followed, but I think this is one of the little things which might be corrected by the minister, who is so good at looking after details of this kind. I should like to leave that thought with him, together with the whole question of free transportation for our troops, which I mentioned when the Minister of National Defence had his estimates before the committee. I do not wish to urge that unduly year after year, but I mention it now for this reason. I fancy that the minister and most hon. members feel that we as civilians seem to make such a puny little contribution to the war effort. It may be that our contribution is greater than perhaps we realize, but still I think there is a feeling among civilians generally that unless one is in uniform one does not seem to be doing anything like the job the boys and girls are doing who have actually donned that uniform; and I think that is a proper feeling for us to have.
Having that in mind, it seems to me that as civilians we should try to do more for those who are in uniform, even if it means spending more money. After all, we are in this war to win it; and any little convenience or comfort, or anything which will advance the position of the men and women in our armed forces, should be the deep concern of each of

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us. In connection with matters such as the cost of transportation, the allowance for travelling time in connection with leave and matters of that kind, if we are to err at all I think we should err on the side of generosity toward those in the armed forces.
At this time I do not desire to make any lengthy statement in connection with the air force appropriation, but I should like to say that I believe this committee might properly spend some considerable time-I am not suggesting this for the purpose of delaying the estimates-on the matters which the minister laid frankly before this committee this afternoon in connection with post-war and demobilization problems. These are matters to which I think we are in duty bound to give serious consideration and attention. These are not entirely government matters; they affect the life of this whole nation in the years that lie ahead. The manner in which we as a country receive back into civil life the men who have made the continuance of that civil life possible during these perilous and dangerous years will, in the final analysis, determine whether or not we as a people are able to meet the challenge which is squarely before us now. I want to say to the minister that as far as our party is concerned we are anxious to. give every possible assistance in 1 the solution of these very difficult and trj'ing problems which from time to time come up for solution.


John Horne Blackmore: All hon. members are proud of the achievements of the air force, and all are thankful that our boys have risen so splendidly to the occasion thrust suddenly upon them. I do not purpose speaking at length at this time, but rise merely to place before the minister one question in connection with which I believe more can be done than is now being done. I refer to those men from Canada who have joined the R.A.F. and have desired to be transferred to the R.C.A.F., but who thus far have been unable to accomplish their object.
I hold in my hand a letter which reached me only to-day, an excerpt from which I believe the minister would be pleased to hear. These are the words in the letter:
Whilst serving in France at the beginning of the war we were asked if we would transfer to a Canadian squadron, with the possible opportunity of transferring to the R.C.A.F. I put my name forward immediately, but that was the last we heard about the matter, partly I expect because of the turn of events at that time.
After my return from France I tried almost every conceivable way of being transferred to the R.C.A.F. I have been to Canada House and also to the R.C.A.F. headquarters in

London, but without receiving any satisfaction. Have put in application after application at every station where I have been, but the answer is always the same, that it is impossible. Have even finished my term of service with the R A F., but even that does not seem to matter.
Since my return from France I was married to an English girl who is now a serving member of the Canadian Women's Army Corps. As you know my wife in the service receives Canadian status as regards pay, etc., and myself being a Canadian citizen will have to carry on in the R.A.F. never being able to receive the equivalent pay or promotion as members of the Canadian services enjoy, unless there is some remedy which I have not had brought to my notice.
Should be very pleased if you could enlighten me as to a possible solution to my case.
This boy lives in an. Ontario city, and states:
My intentions are to return there after the war. My classification in the Royal Air Force is corporal, fitter II engines, group 1.
I believe no comment is necessary. The minister has already indicated that he is keenly aware of the existence of this problem, and in his remarks this afternoon he indicated that he has taken measures to. deal with the matter. But I gather not only from the words but from the tone of his remarks that he is meeting with some sort of very difficult opposition.


Charles Gavan Power: No. I was hoping to allow the asking of a number of questions before undertaking to make a reply. May I say to my hon. friend, however, that the matter is now settled, in that we have reached an agreement with the air ministry, notification of which was given the house on. February 16. The R.A.F. no longer has any objection to the transfer of their personnel to the R.C.A.F.


John Horne Blackmore: I shall have to get
the details from the minister to-morrow, and I shall be happy to pass them on to this young man. He is about the third one in this predicament who has brought his case to my attention. There seem to be many of them. I was going to suggest that even if there are any difficulties in the way of actually transferring these splendid boys to the R.C.A.F., at least this parliament should make provision for making up to them the difference between the rate of pay in the R.A.F. and the rate in the R.C.A.F.


Mrs. NIELSEN:: Mr. Chairman, I, too, have received information quite similar to that mentioned by the hon. member who has just taken his seat. I have in mind a young boy from my part of the country who went to England at the beginning of the war, and'has been in the Royal Air Force ever since. His parents have been very much alarmed about the situation because they have felt for a long time

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that their son, who was a capable boy with university training, should have been eligible for a commission. Owing, however, to the fact that he was in the R.A.F., all his appeals to the R.C.A.F. have been without avail. I thought if I brought this particular case to the minister's attention he might be able to give me some satisfaction to pass on to the parents.


Charles Gavan Power: I would be very glad to.


Dorise Winifred Nielsen: While I am on my feet I should like also to support what was said by the leader of the opposition respecting the question of equal pay for equal work. When this debate was before the chamber last year I made some reference to the need for recognition by the government not only of the splendid work being done by the women in the auxiliary services, but of the fact that they are entitled to the same pay when doing the same work. Knowing that the Minister of National Defence for Air is a man who holds realistic views, who is not afraid of innovation or new ideas, and who has always tackled things in a manner greatly to be admired, I felt that perhaps with him I would be able to press home my point to greater advantage than I might with some of the other ministers.
I do feel that all of us give lip-service to the idea of the wonderful work the women are doing in connection with our war effort. In the marvellous perspective now opening up before the people of the whole world, wherein we can see before us a pathway leading on to greater progress, I am of opinion that if we women do not take upon ourselves the necessary effort to convince you men of our rightful place in the world, and our right to have the same pay if we do the same kind of work, you men are just going to forget about it, the same as you have forgotten about other things in the past. Never was the time more ripe for women to press home their right to earn the same as the men earn, when doing the same kind of work, than it is now in the light of the marvellous and valuable contribution the women have made in the war effort.
Many of these women have in the past helped to support homes. Women, the same as men, have many responsibilities, such as looking after aged parents. And where the woman does the work, surely she is entitled to the pay. I heartily support the leader of the opposition in the plea he made, and I hope the minister will take cognizance of it.


Mr. FACTOR:: I wish to say a word or two about a body of men in the Royal Canadian Air Force of whom no one has yet spoken. I refer to the thousands of administrative officers, who have been part of the scheme-those
penguins, as the minister once called them, sitting in the Jackson building, in the Lisgar building, in command headquarters and in all units.
Perhaps I can speak with some authority on the subject, having been an administrative officer for over three years, and having had experience in units, at command headquarters and at air force headquarters. No one realizes better than I the vast contribution made by aircrew, the boys who fly the aircraft. I understand, too, that contribution made by the groundcrew, the boys who keep them flying. I say, too, that if the Dominion of Canada had done nothing more in this war than make the contribution it has made in the air force, we would have done a wonderful job, as far as our war effort is concerned.
I wish, however, to say a word or two about the forgotten men of the air force, the men whom I heard a flying boy once term the pen-pushers. These men in the different offices are making a contribution to the war effort. They rank from Air Vice-Marshal down to AC2's, and without their contribution this whole scheme would not be possible. Many of these men left lucrative positions in civil life and have made great financial sacrifices in order to do their bit in the great Royal Canadian Air Force. I should like to make one appeal to the minister on their behalf. The aircrew receive twenty-eight days annual leave, to which they are justly entitled; but I submit that men who sit at desks, men who are fighting the so-called paper war day in and day out, week in and week out, are entitled to the same consideration and should be given twenty-eight days leave. Their work is perhaps more tedious and more tiresome than any other; it exacts more in the way of physical strength than that of the boys who fly the planes. . I say that without intending in any way to disparage the hazardous occupation of the boys who fly. But I do ask the minister to give some consideration to these men who are sitting in the offices day in and day out filling out these numerous forms. I would include the women, too, in this plea. They are doing a great job in administrative work.' The occupy the positions of adjutant, assistant adjutant and many other administrative offices.
There are many men in the air force who are reaching the age of retirement, and there are also many men in administrative positions who are anxious to get overseas. We hear the criticism that the men in the Jackson building, in the Lisgar building or at command headquarters have soft jobs, but I would say to those critics that there is not one officer

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in an administrative position in the R.C.A.F. who is not anxious to get overseas. Unfortunately, it is impossible to send them all overseas. In conclusion, I want again to pay my tribute to the men and women of the R.C.A.F. who are doing such a real job.


John Ritchie MacNicol: There is one matter I should like to take up with the minister. I have communicated about this matter with the Department of National Defence for Naval Services and the Department of National Defence for Air, but I have not been able to get any satisfaction. Last year a number of men in Toronto who were matriculants about to enter university enlisted, I presume in the R.A.F. They were sent overseas where they received some training in flying off ships; then they were sent back to Canada and then to the United States where they are now being trained. I know quite a number of these boys, and I believe they are to be sent to some city in the southern states where they will complete their training.
This matter may not come under the Minister of National Defence for Naval Services, although I cannot see any difference in the authority of the two departments, that is naval services and air in this connection. I should like to know if the minister who is now before the committee is able to state just what the present status of these boys is. After they are trained they will probably be sent overseas to fly off British aircraft carriers. I should like to know their relationship to the Canadian service and how it was they were enlisted by the Royal Air Force.


Charles Gavan Power: I do not know.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Somebody must have some control over them. They are some of the brightest boys in the land.


Charles Gavan Power: Were they enlisted last year?


John Ritchie MacNicol: Yes.


Charles Gavan Power: I do not know why they did not come to the R.C.A.F. recruiting office. Offices were opened all over the place.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I brought the matter up in the house last year, but I have forgotten just what reply the minister made.


Charles Gavan Power: Exactly the same, I take it.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Both the minister for air and the minister for naval services have to do with flying, that is if we either build or purchase aircraft carriers, and somebody should be responsible for the enlistment of these young men. I wish to know how these men 
are going to fit into Canadian service, if and when we have our own aircraft carriers. I suppose, when that day comes, they will be brought back from the imperial to the Canadian service. I have spoken to quite a number of them and they told me they would like to fly off Canadian carriers. Apparently somebody came from England to recruit these boys, although I do not know. How was it they got into the British service instead of the Canadian service? They should be given all the rights and privileges of Canadians. They are Canadians, but it just happens that they are engaged in training with the R.A.F. I have not the right term for their service.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: The fleet air arm.


John Ritchie MacNicol: This may not be under the minister's jurisdiction-I notice he shakes his head-so that there may not be much use in pursuing this any further now.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I am going to make a statement on that point when my estimates are up.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Thank you very much. This matter is important to the fathers and relatives of these young men. Apparently they have been enlisted in the fleet air arm without the knowledge of our own military officials. They are all young men; I doubt if any were over eighteen years of age. It may be that their university professors or their schoolteachers invited them to do this, but I do not know.
A lot has been said about the affairs of the minister's department. I wish to compliment the minister. I am always amused at the minister. If he is wrong, he is ready to make open confession. When he says "Well, I made a mistake", what can you do with him? When he admits he has made a mistake we just have to pass his estimates. That is one of the things that has enabled the minister to get his estimates through so easily. He is always frank with us. Even if he has not made an error and we think he has, he will rise in his place and say, "I did it". What can you do with a man like that? It is a happy disposition to have, and he deserves a great deal of praise for a disposition like that. He has been an excellent minister. May I also compliment the hon. member for Spadina, the hon. member for Greenwood, and others with whose names or constituencies I am not so familiar, upon the excellent service they have rendered in the positions in which they are placed during the present war. They have denied themselves the splendid company of this house, which they would probably much prefer to the hot

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offices they occupy at Trenton and elsewhere. The hon. member for Spadina was generous in his tribute to the various branches of the air service, and I endorse every word he said in praise of the aircrews, groundcrews and all others engaged in the camps throughout the country. I would express my personal appreciation of the services he has rendered to the country, together with the hon. member for Greenwood and others who have given up a good deal to serve the common cause this year.


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: I have another question to ask. As I listened to the minister and to other speakers on this side of the house, I was wondering whether it would not be possible to send copies of Hansard containing their speeches to the men who are doing things "over there". I recognize the necessity of conserving shipping for food, but surely the Hansard which contains this debate can be classed as food for thought, and might very well be distributed to the various officers' and sergeants' messes and the dry canteens.


Mr. NOSEWORTHY:: When the hon.
member who has just taken his seat was speaking, someone suggested that if Hansard were to be sent overseas the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation should be mentioned in it.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Well, that certainly will not improve Hansard.


George Alexander Cruickshank: The troops like to be amused.


Joseph William Noseworthy: I was especially
interested in the ministers department, the Royal Canadian Air Force. For four years before coming to this house I watched each spring the very cream of our graduating class of the school from which I come joining the air force. That school has now one thousand of its graduates in the forces. By far the majority of them are in the air force; and as I hear from a considerable number of those boys from time to time, I am particularly delighted with the statements made by the minister this afternoon. I join with others in congratulating him upon the force which he has succeeded in building up and in the contribution which that force has made to the cause of democracy.
The minister is asking in these estimates for something more than one billion dollars for the air force. I am confident there is no hon. member who will criticize that expenditure on behalf of that force, particularly ' that part of the estimates pertaining to pay and allowances, to personnel supplies, or any other provision which touches the lives of the
men and women in the force. As a matter of fact, I am sure the committee would be prepared to increase that amount had the minister asked for more and the country would support us in voting a still larger amount than that for which the minister asked. Had the minister asked for an additional amount to reduce the transportation costs of travelling expenses of the men going to and from leave, as hon. members have already suggested, I am confident that the money would have been voted. Had he chosen to increase the amount in order that the leave granted might be exclusive of the days occupied in travelling to and from home, I am confident we would have voted that amount. Had he chosen to provide in these estimates money which would permit those of the groundcrews serving in England and overseas and others to be given leave of absence to visit their homes after absence from home for years, that, too, would have been forthcoming.
I should like to refer for a moment to what the minister had to say regarding the question of rehabilitation. He very properly called attention to the difficulty which would arise and the problems which would have to be confronted after the war, particularly if those boys were to be kept in uniform and in barracks and given continued drill and training after they returned from the war. That may be true, but I wish to emphasize the fact that, regardless of when these men may be discharged, there should be no period between the time of their return and the time of their rehabilitation in civil life when they should receive less than they are now receiving in pay and allowances. I am quite confident that this country does not expect those men who have served so valiantly to spend a long interval between the time of their return to Canada and the time of their rehabilitation on a mere pittance or on any pay less than that which they are receiving for pay and allowance while in the service.
I' was pleased to hear the reference of the minister to education. Certainly there is no branch of the service which would be more concerned with the educational opportunities that are offered them after the war than those who are in the air force. These young people-for the most part they are boys and girls-went into the air force, as I mentioned before, from high school, from college. Thousands of them had not completed their education. Thousands of them would have proceeded from high school to university had times been normal. Many of them found their studies interrupted in the midst of their university course. Others, probably, had just

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begun their high school course, having been for various reasons late in getting through. I suggest that every possible means be taken to furnish these youth with education for whatever career they choose to follow on their return from the war. We should be particularly careful that the regulations are not too restrictive. The regulations must be so elastic and broad that any man-and the same applies to women-returning from the R.C.A.F. will receive assistance in making up for the time he has lost in gaining or completing his education. On that matter I am not yet quite clear whether the provisions we have made for educational opportunities for Canadians who have enlisted in the Canadian forces will be equally available to those serving in the British army and the Royal Air Force. I am thinking particularly of the boys who enlisted in the R.A.F. in days before the R.C.A.F. could take them, the days before the war, and I am not certain whether the educational opportunities we have provided for the men returning from the war will be available in all cases to those who enlisted earlier in the R.A.F. The minister himself was not quite certain a year ago when this question was under discussion, and it is one of the points on which I should like to have him make a statement at this time.
There are one or two other matters I would call to the minister's attention. I presume item No. 1 is the item on which they can be brought up. I am not sure whether the minister has any connection with the wartime bureau of technical personnel. I suppose all three branches of the force are concerned with that bureau. This is what I have in mind. I know personally a considerable number of young men who are science graduates of a year ago. These men are held responsible to that wartime bureau. They have tried to enlist and some of them have had preliminary training for the air force. They tried to enlist as aircrew. They are physically fit and in every way suitable, but they cannot be taken as aircrew except as technical personnel, and apparently there are no positions of that kind vacant. Consequently they are now serving around in various industrial plants at the beck and call of the bureau. The strange thing is that while these same men cannot enlist in either army, navy or air force, they are subject to draft and have been drafted, and they have had to apply, or their employers have had to apply for deferment for them. It seems a strange situation where men specially trained as graduates in science are willing or anxious to enlist in the air force or the army, are no permitted to enlist, and yet they are liable to draft and every six months 
must get deferment granted. Moreover, I am told that they must stay where they are. They dare not inquire about finding another position, no matter how small the pay may be in the job in which they are placed. There is a $500 fine, I am told, if they are caught looking for another job that may improve their position. There is a $500 fine, I am told, for the employer who tries to employ them. I have seen letters from the bureau to that effect. I presume the minister and his department are interested inasmuch as some of these are air force personnel or have had air force training.
There is one other matter. I have a letter from a boy whom I taught before he went into the air force and who is now in service with the R.A.F. in India. In his letter he tells me:
We single Canadians now stationed in India are required to do four years out here and our service overseas in Britain does not count. The four years is the normal Indian tour of duty for all single R.A.F. personnel. This is not right, and we are very much dissatisfied about it. As far as wre are concerned out here, any advantages except pay that may come from being a member of the Canadian forces are null and void.
I submit these suggestions to the minister and trust that when he has information he will make a statement.


Mr. GILLIS:: My remarks will be brief because I understand it is the minister's intention to follow the same procedure with respect to his estimates that was followed by the Minister of National Defence for the army. In the estimates we have before us there is ample opportunity to question the minister on any specific matter we have in mind: that requires an answer, and feeling that that is the most expeditious way of carrying on the debate I intend to refrain from mentioning a lot of matters about which we may later on question the minister.
I join with those who pay tribute to the minister for the efficient and effective way he placed his estimates before the committee.
The leader of the opposition a few moments ago thought the minister was very cooperative and complimented him along those lines.
I believe the reverse is true. I think the minister anticipated about everything that the leader of the opposition or anyone else might have in mind by way of criticism and threw the ball over here for answer. That is exactly the way I see it. He posed every question that one might be thinking of and invited the opposition to give him the answers.


Charles Gavan Power: Is that the right or the
wrong thing to do?

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Clarence Gillis: That is the right thing.


Gordon Graydon: He knew where to look
for the right answer.


Clarence Gillis: I appreciate the course followed by the minister. He quite frankly placed the matter in the hands of those who might have suggestions to offer.
I appreciate also his remarks with respect to the question of repatriation or rehabilitation, whichever one likes to call it, or demobilization. There are many questions that people will have to ask themselves and a great deal of serious thinking to be done. Two things struck me with regard to the minister's address. The first was his very frank approach to the question of what the boys should expect from Canada when the war is over. He emphasized, and rightly so, the fact that the war is not an end in itself. I, along with many others, hope that it is the end of something. I hope it is the end of unemployment, exploitation and misery such as we had in the years preceding the war. I hope it is the beginning, when the war is over, by the people of Canada, along with those who are overseas in the fighting forces, of building a better world on this continent. I trust that some members of the government are thinking along the lines of the expression of the minister with regard to that particular angle. I think he very rightly wound up his address on a note stressing the seriousness of the situation and the necessity for serious thinking.
When the estimates of the Minister of National Defence were up I expressed my opinions rather fully on matters pertaining to demobilization and rehabilitation. The mechanics that I outlined for the army would apply equally to the air force, and I am not going to take up the time of the committee by repeating them. I was pleased to hear the minister for air announce that the young Canadian personnel in the R.A.F. were to be given an opportunity of transferring to the R.C.A.F. He did not say how that was to be done or what one would have to go through in order to make that transfer possible. I suppose he will do so during the question period; but there is an angle to that particular group in the service to which no one has referred up to date, and I should like to focus the minister's attention on it. I think he stated that there were approximately 2,000 Canadian personnel in the R.A.F.


Charles Gavan Power: That is only a guess.


Clarence Gillis: Yes, approximately. Many of those are boys who went to England in 1937, 1938 and 1939 because they could not get jobs in this country and therefore went into the
R.A.F. as Canadians. During their period of service in the R.A.F. they are subject to income tax. A pilot officer, for example, is paid approximately $120 a month in Canadian money. Out of that he has to pay approximately $35 in income tax. These young men have been paying that all during their period of service with the R.A.F. United States personnel serving in the R.A.F. were also subject to that income tax for, I believe, a couple of years. They were successful in having it eliminated and in having returned to them all the money that they had paid in income tax up until such time as they received exemption. Before these young men are finally transferred to the R.C.A.F. I hope that that particular angle will be given consideration.
I believe that these boys have a right to expect the same treatment in the matter of transfer and in the matter of return of income tax paid to the British government during their period of service as the Americans received.
There are many angles to the money side of it, but I am not going to go into them now, because I think every member of the committee is familiar with them. There is the matter of dependents' allowance. There is the matter of differential in rates. The one point I should like to focus the minister's attention on is income tax. I reiterate, I think these boys have a right to a return of the income tax that they paid during their period in the service. Another point that the minister made and that I should like to comment on briefly is the fear he stressed that when the war is over, boys returning from the services may come back with their minds focused on themselves individually, with the complex built up in their minds that the first back is the first on the job; get what you can for yourself regardless of what happens to the fellow who is coming behind. I believe the minister is quite correct in assuming that perhaps that will be the situation.
Under present conditions there are not many prospects for those in the service coming back, and the natural tendency is to recognize that and to try to do something for themselves. In connection with that very fear the minister expressed the opinion that it was wrong to keep them in uniform when they come back. He likened the situation to the last war, and of course made the observation that there was [DOT] quite a difference in attitude and opinion to-day because of the changes made since the last war. I agree with him in most of his remarks, but I make one exception. I have expressed the opinion time and time again and I wish to reiterate it now. Because of the
1092	COMMONS
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situation that exists in Canada to-day, with the lack of planning to absorb the service personnel returning and the million of war workers in war industries that will be closed, and without any opportunity of finding employment for a large percentage of them, I think it would be wrong to take the army, the air force and the navy back and to discharge them to civilian life, route them through the channels of selective service, unemployment service and the civilian agencies that are being built up. Because of that situation the very fear that the minister expresses is the one we shall have to face. The proper thing to do in a situation that we all fear along with the minister is to guarantee to the returning personnel not the relief that is paid now-because $14.20 a week to a married man or $10.20 to a single person is relief in the final analysis; it lasts for only a certain number of months and the mechanics of getting it are not very easy through welfare agencies, selective service, unemployment insurance, and so forth; there is a lot of discontent wrapped up in these regulations, although they look all right on paper-but something more definite.
I stated in my remarks on the navy estimates that I thought the camps which are established in Canada should be fully utilized in the demobilization period. Instead of bringing the service personnel back to where there is no possibility of work for them, discharging them and sending them across the country, breaking up as it were the units that were formed overseas, units that fought together and will work cooperatively together as a unit if they are kept together, we should keep them together. If they are discharged and sent throughout the country an individualistic spirit will be bred among them, and they will be made the prey of any demagogue who comes along, waves a flag and tells them that he has a solution. I believe if they were brought back, placed in their camps and the educational machinery we have to-day utilized while they are in uniform in camps- and I would not haVe them drilled and booted around on the parade ground and required to salute every second officer they meet and all that kind of stuff-and routed back to gainful employment in teams in order that they might be able to work their way back to civil life, there would be no need to fear that which the minister expressed. I do not think the fear of the individualistic selfish spirit being bred can be avoided in any other way.
I merely leave this thought with the minister; I elaborated upon it when the army estimates were under consideration. Unless drastic changes are made in the structure of [Mr. Gj.U.'S.l
society in Canada; unless greater employment opportunity than we can see now is provided for those coming out of the service, we shall have discontent and strife and everything that goes with it. Every care will have to be taken in the demobilization period to see that those now in the services are at least kept on the same basis of pay that they are receiving at the present time. You cannot take a man who has an income of $130 or $150 a month, drop him down to $14.20 a week, give him a suit of civilian clothes, send him out to look for a job, and then expect him to be at all happy or proud of himself after the contribution he has made to the cause of his country. I think in all three branches of the service men are making their maximum contribution in the work for which they have the greatest aptitude. I believe that in rebuilding Canada, if we are to get the support of those now in the services we shall have to do everything in our power to make this period of reconstruction just as glamorous as we made the fighting during the war. Otherwise, we shall not be able to interest the boys who are in the service to-day and who will be coming back from the excitement of war and everything that goes with it, whom we shall expect to settle down to the humdrum job of just working out an existence in Canada. We have to start rebuilding Canada, making it the kind of country that those in the service believe they are fighting for, and it seems to me the best way to do that is to have the teams which are fighting the war together kept together for instructional purposes, educated and sent out to do jobs which will provide them with a livelihood for themselves and their families. And this must be done before they leave the service, before they are sent out into a hard, cruel world to look after themselves.
Another classification was mentioned by the minister; I refer to the radio mechanics. The minister emphasized their position, scattered all over the globe, working alone or in groups of two or three. In regard to these men there is a complaint I have heard, though I do not know whether it is justified; the minister should know. In his remarks he stated that these mechanics are largely isolated and are attached to the R.A.F., but that the responsibility for their pay, promotions and so on rests with the Canadian government. The complaint I hear in regard to these men is that in the matter of promotion, while a large number of them are classified as noncommissioned officers they are merely shadow N.C.O.'s, in that they merely receive the pay of a leading aircraftman even after years of

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service. If that is so, I think the minister should try to rectify that situation, because these men are making quite a sacrifice in carrying on their work.
There are many other questions in which I am interested, but I think I shall reserve any further discussion until the specific items are under consideration.


Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: I do not intend this evening to enter into a lengthy discussion of the various matters which were dealt with by the minister, since they can be discussed fully when the individual items are considered by the committee. Suffice it to say that all members of this house felt the same pride that was exhibited by the minister in his recital of the activities of the Royal Canadian Air Force. But while we are all appreciative of what is being done, more than ever it is necessary to keep in mind the things that have not been done, to the end that when the period of rehabilitation comes along we may-assure those who have served that they will have a job and an opportunity in life. In other words, we as a nation must remember the sacrifices that have been made, and must be firm in our determination to see that those who served are assured of certainty of occupation when they return. As the minister spoke with pride of the work being done by the air force he mentioned three outstanding young men who were being considered to carry on the work of rehabilitation. At the time I thought of one young man from my own constituency who in less than one year of service rose from the rank of sergeant-pilot to that of wing commander, and who to-day commands one of the outstanding squadrons in Britain. _
In considering what should be done in the post-war period we must bear in mind that many young men who are serving in the air force to-day look forward to an opportunity to take part in the greater air development that will take place after the war_ is over. If one asks air personnel what they intend to do after the war, invariably the reply is that if they have the opportunity they would like to continue in the air force or in civil aviation. If there is one thing in which we in this house and we in Canada have been remiss it has been in our failure to discuss, in regard to the rehabilitation of our men and the future position of Canada itself, the formation of a great international transport system which will give these men an opportunity to serve when the war is over. Only a few weeks ago Mr. Ralph P. Bell, director-general of aircraft production, stated that in relation to our population we shall come out of this war with the largest proportion of trained airmen of any allied nation. What are we to do with these men; what opportunity are they to have to
serve in the great air transport systems of the future The other day the minister outlined something of the policy of this department with reference to the Alaska air lines. International air lines were referred to by the Prime Minister in an address he delivered about a year ago; but we in this country have no wide and comprehensive picture of the postwar air development that will take place, and what will be the position of Canada in regard thereto. Now that we are considering the rehabilitation of these airmen after the war,
I think the time has come for a frank explanation by the minister in charge of that department, giving this committee and the country a recital of what took place at the great conference which was held in England last October and telling us something of Canada^ plans for the future. Shall Canada's air scheme be an international one, under an international board? Shall Canada participate with the other nations of the empire _ in a vast empire air scheme, with the cooperation of the United States? These matters, more important than any others as far as the rehabilitation of the men in the air force is concerned, have remained the secret of the government, if the government has a policy with respect thereto. In order to give hon. members an opportunity to discuss the post-war rehabilitation of those discharged from the air force, the minister should at the earliest possible date, and before this debate on his estimates is concluded, make a statement as to what took place at the conference, in so far as it can be revealed, a picture of the stand Canada intends to take, a recital of such post-war plans as have been made with regard to aircraft production after the war, the continuation of the industry in Canada and the utilization of the man-power now in the air force, when discharged, so that we shall be in a position to discuss these matters.
The air future of Canada and the empire has been kept under lock and key by the government. We have had only piecemeal recitals. We had the statement of the Prime Minister, and a few days ago a further statement of the Minister of Munitions and Supply. But we have not yet had a picture of the stand Canada intends to take. By their agreements, Australia and New Zealand have indicated to the world the stand they intend to take. An opportunity is thereby given to men who serve in the air force to make plans now for a continuation in that service after the war.
I should like to secure from the minister- and I think the minister for air could give it-a statement showing the numbers to-day in the air force who may reasonably expect to be absorbed in civilian aviation after the war.
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Charles Gavan Power: I do not know.


John George Diefenbaker: The minister says he does not know.


Charles Gavan Power: It is not my business. I am a war minister; I have nothing to do with civil aviation. The Minister of Transport is in charge of that. Ask the Minister of Transport, on his estimates-not me, on mine.


John George Diefenbaker: But I thought there would be cooperation between the ministers in the matter of rehabilitation?


Charles Gavan Power: But I do not speak for him.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We are taking the departments one at a time. I shall be very glad to cover the point to which my hon. friend has referred, when we are discussing the estimates of my department.
home to Canada, and have made requests for pensions based on the wounds they have received. One of their complaints is that if, upon discharge, their rank is that of sergeant, flight sergeant or warrant officer class 1, they are paid a pension on the basis of their original substantive rank, namely AC-2. I have heard that complaint raised several times, and it is generally believed that such is the condition.


Charles Gavan Power: Would my hon. friend repeat that? I am rather puzzled by what he has said.


John George Diefenbaker: It has been pointed out that in deciding the question of pension, pension is paid not on the basis of the rank held at the time of discharge but on the original substantive rank of AC-2, at which the airman entered the air force.


John George Diefenbaker: While this matter does not come strictly within the department of the Minister of National Defence for Air, would he not consider giving a statement dur-mg the present discussion so that, in so far as the rehabilitation of men in the air force is concerned, we could discuss the matter as an entity? The minister for air discussed the matter of rehabilitation.


Charles Gavan Power: Saying that it was not his business and pointing out that rehabilitation was entirely the business of the Department of Pensions and National Health. It is not that of the minister for air.


John George Diefenbaker: I appreciate that. Nevertheless, interested as he is in the welfare of those who serve and no one has exhibited a greater interest-I am sure the Minister of National Defence for Air would welcome a discussion of this subject so vitally in need of consideration at the present time.
With reference particularly to the minister's department, I should like to secure from him a statement respecting elementary flying training schools, and whether it is the intention of the government to continue that system. Will he tell the committee whether any changes ave taken place in the past year with respect to the administration of the elementary flying training schools, and the matter of profits now being received by civilian shareholders and, generally, make a statement as to whether or not the present system will be continued after the war?
While the minister says that the matter of rehabilitation does not come strictly within his department, may I point out that I have received complaints from two or three young men, sergeant-pilots who have been invalided


Charles Gavan Power: Then they must have changed the Pension Act since I had anything to do with it.


John George Diefenbaker: I mention the matter because it has been raised on two or three occasions.


Charles Gavan Power: I had something to do with the phrasing of the original section in the act, and I know that formerly it read that a pension would be paid on the rank or acting rank held by the applicant at the time the disability occurred. However, that may have been changed since I had anything to do with it.


John George Diefenbaker: That is perfectly true; these men raise the objection that that is not being carried out.


Charles Gavan Power: If my hon. friend will give me the names I shall pass them on to the Minister of Pensions and National Health.


Gordon Graydon: Perhaps the Minister of Pensions and National Health will answer now?


Mr. ISNOR:: Before asking the minister to answer some questions I intend to ask, may I join with other hon. members who have paid tribute to him for his thorough and informative presentation of the activities of the Royal Canadian Air Force. He and those associated with him in the administration of his department have been paid high compliments.
Coming from Halifax on the Atlantic coast, and meeting large numbers of the personnel of the air force, instead of giving all credit to the minister and those associated with him in Ottawa may I pay tribute to those in charge of the eastern air command on the Atlantic coast. I include not only the officers, but also men of all ranks who comprise such units as

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the eastern air command, eastern passage, Y depot and other units stationed along the east coast. We in Halifax appreciate the splendid conduct of the men carrying out their duties on our sea coast.
Would the minister advise the committee as to why it is necessary to transfer Y-l depot from Halifax to Lachine, Quebec? I realize that there is a shortage of housing accommodation in Halifax. I understand that the reason given was that it was found necessary to provide quarters for the navy. However,
I am somewhat doubtful whether the desired results were brought about by the transfer, and I am concerned as to whether the good accomplished equalled the inconvenience and loss to the R.C.A.F., as far as the quartering of men is concerned. The Y depot was an embarkation depot. Men were sent from all parts of Canada to Halifax so as to be ready, on short notice, to go aboard ships and sail overseas. I understand that many of these men are now being sent overseas through United States ports. If such is the case, I should like to know if the transportation facilities provided by those ports are as efficient as those provided under the former arrangement. Perhaps the minister can tell me if there is any truth in this. A most efficient organization, known as No. 1 posttransit unit, was set up, and the movement of R.C.A.F. personnel has been looked after in a most efficient way.
The hon. member for Cape Breton South referred to the lack of planning to take care of the members of the R.C.A.F. and other services on demobilization. I do not know whether the hon. member intended to, but he implied that in so far as the R.C.A.F. was concerned no steps were being taken to take care of its men when demobilized. If there is one branch of our defence services which has planned for rehabilitation, it is the R.C.A.F. It has what is known as an auxiliary service, which in turn has created service counsellors. These men have gathered something like 40,000 men together, and they are being given instruction in various trades in order to fit themselves for jobs when they are demobilized and enter civil life. I mention this to offset any misunderstanding which may be created by what has been said by the hon. member. It may not have been his intention to create any such impression, but so often members of the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation are ready to sow seeds of dissatisfaction and discontent. That does not help the government or the country in efforts to plan successfully for post-war needs.


Clarence Gillis: We admit that the R.C.A.F. are doing what they can to fit their men for jobs when they leave the service, but can my hon. friend tell me where they are to get those jobs? That is what I had in mind.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: Statements such as that create a feeling of distress in the minds of the men now in the service; that is what happens when they feel that no plans are being made to take care of them. I am hopeful, and I think the hon. member for Cape Breton South is hopeful, that every one of these men will be taken care of. As I say, elaborate plans are under way to provide jobs or places for them in our social economy, and this applies to men in all branches of the service. I should like the minister to advise us more fully as to what studies are being carried on and what instructions are being given to teach men various trades in order to fit them into civil life after they are demobilized. Perhaps the minister could tell us also what cooperation there is between his particular branch and the other two branches of the armed service, the navy and the army.
I have received a letter in connection with transatlantic and middle east airmail service.
I do not know whether the statement made by the Postmaster General the other evening covers this matter, but apparently it did not satisfy this particular person who feels that the airmail service to R.C.A.F. overseas personnel is not as quick as it should be. I desire to join with other hon. members in offering my congratulations to the minister upon the able manner in which he has administered his department. I believe he will be able to answer to my satisfaction and to that of the hon. member for Cape Breton South any questions we may have as to plans that are under way to provide instruction to these men so that they may take their rightful places in our social economy at the end of the war.


Mr. HARRIS (Danforth):: In common with other hon. members of this committee I appreciate the manner in which the minister has handled the many difficult problems of his department. However, as kindly as I can I must say to the minister that the Canadian people have not received from him the type of statement which would engender confidence in their minds as well as in the minds of our forces overseas. As I listened to the statements being made, I could not help contrasting what we get in this chamber and what emanates from the Prime Minister of Great Britain in that chamber which is so close to the scene of action.
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I appreciate what the minister and his department are doing; but when he replies to the many suggestions which have been made I should like him to give us a few minutes of inspiration or guidance in order to lift the Canadian people out of a frame of mind into which they are slipping, namely, apathy, complacency and perhaps the thought that the war is won already when, in my opinion, we are a long way from winning the war. Many lives will be saved and less blood will be shed if we pursue the conduct of this war with more industry and diligence and attention instead of giving a major portion of our attention to worthwhile things such as rehabilitation, reconstruction and other matters which are so necessary. It is true that they have their place, but while this war is on let us prosecute it to the limit.
Let us have a few more. Churchillian statements emanating from the minister who is to-day charged with the responsibility of one of the most important departments of war. He is able to do this, and by doing it he would inspire our own people and in turn inspire the boys who are serving us so valiantly. Abroad is the statement that recruiting has slackened down. That may give a little comfort here and there to our people, but the measure of comfort it will give to the enemy is, to my mind, a serious matter. I would not for a moment admit that we are slackening in any phase of our war effort. I would say that we are pursuing it more rigorously than we ever pursued it before, and that by so doing we shall reach victory that much more quickly than by any other means. Nothing will strike the fear of God into the hearts of the enemy more than-the old fashioned term of "an allout war eff^|" is perhaps the best term we can use-a vigorous prosecution of our effort. Let there be no complacency, no apathy, no slackening of our recruiting, no less money spent on our war effort, but more and more, everything we can give to get this job over as ' quickly as possible. That is the policy on which I should like the minister to dilate when he comes to answer the questions which have been brought forward. We all admire his disarming methods when he introduces his estimates. We all admire the tact, the skill, the judgment with which he handles himself m this chamber. So much, so good.
But there is a war on; let us realize that. We are now in the south part of Italy, up on a beach-head. Let us search our hearts and seriously ponder what measure of success we have really had. A letter to which I am now replying said a few short weeks ago, "We will be in Rome in two weeks". We are not in Rome yet. God forbid that we should have (Mr. J. H. Harris.]
another Dunkirk beach-head. We are certain there will not be another Dunkirk there. But a policy which spends the time of 245 men in this chamber and engages the attention of 11,000,000 people at this time on reconstruction and rehabilitation and all these issues which we are capable of taking care of in due course, is not the kind of thing which should now engage our attention. And I ask the minister, when he makes his reply and deals with this most important section of our war effort, to give us not only something which we can cheer for but something which will inspire us to do what we, the Canadian people, represented in twenty-five per cent of the air force, are willing to do on behalf of the allied nations to bring this war to a conclusion much more rapidly than it is being brought to a conclusion now. I entreat the Minister of Pensions and National Health, with whom the minister for air is now conferring, and who knows, from experience with citizens in Canada who are charged with responsibility of trying to do something for the rehabilitation of those who are brought back to us, in reconstruction, and in all these other matters, to recognize that the Canadian people will rise on the proper day in their might and look after these problems. In the meantime, however, I ask the cabinet, and particularly the minister who now has the floor, to address themselves to a problem from which I cannot shake myself free, namely, that we have not won this war and must give attention to its prosecution. Let them say things in this chamber which will echo across the civilized world, assuring the other nations that we, the virile Canadian people, are going "all out" to finish this job first, and that we may be depended upon to look after these other matters when the time comes.


Mr. MUTCH:: If I have a word or two to address to the minister to-night, I would) first wish to say that we who know something of his organizing ability and his humanity believe that if he will continue to devote his attention to ^ his duties rather than compete with the Prime Minister of Great Britain with respect to oratory, as far as the services are concerned we shall feel just as comfortable.


Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: That is a wonderful statement!


Leslie Alexander Mutch: A sensible one, I think.
That does not necessarily make it unique in this company. I am concerned to point out to the committee, and to the minister, that if the air force is showing a slackening in expenditures, or if there may be, or may have been, suggestions that there is some lessening of recruitment because they have now reached their general level and are thinking in terms

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of replacements, this does not necessarily mean that either the youth of Canada or the government of Canada are slackening in their war effort.
All of us hope and some apparently believe that we are at least within two years of the end of the war. If so, I should like to suggest to the minister that it is important to consider, when a young man offers himself for service at this time, where he is most likely to be useful. If, as has been said, a man entering aircrew at the present time cannot hope to be ready for action in service before two years, then there are other branches of the service where he can be made effective in a very much shorter time, half that time, at any rate, and, under circumstances which might easily prevail, very much less.
There is danger in pointing to the size^ of an estimate or the position of enlistments in one branch of the service as though it indicated a slackening of the war effort of the people. I have seen something across this country and abroad, of the war effort of the people of Canada, and it ill becomes anyone in this chamber to suggest there is any slackening off because of such adjustments. The other branches of the service have suffered to some extent in personnel because it has been a matter of policy to encourage many of the very best youth of this country to go into one of the most difficult and courageous tasks there is. If at the present time or if at any time in the future the minister anticipates a period when his reserves are likely to exceed what he requires without what one might call a "scraping the barrel," the other services will be glad to have the services of those people and to avail themselves of their desire to serve.
I had an opportunity of spending a few days with some of the Canadians in the Royal Canadian Air Force who are flying and fighting in the British isles. There is no reason, other than admiration, why I should pay any particular compliment to them, except that, coming from another branch of the service, it has a note of sincerity and may have the merit of being a little unusual. All the time I was away I never ceased to be proud that I was a Canadian. I do not think I ever felt prouder of it than when I spent a few days with a bomber squadron of the Royal Canadian Air Force and saw the boys who are nightly doing the fighting, and realized the way they are regarded by the people of England. I do not think these boys will feel that they are being let down if the minister continues to support them with organization, with reinforcements and with supplies and leaves to others the oratorical effort.


Mr. BENCE:: The minister spent some time in discussing the matter of rehabilitation, and I wish to say a few words in connection with one particular phase which I believe should receive more careful consideration than any other. It is true that our men of the aircrew who will be returning to civilian life will be faced with many difficult problems, and the minister and his colleague, the Minister of Pensions and National Health, will find that these problems will not be easy of solution. There are, however, a number of these young men who will be returning from the prison camps of Germany after peace has come, and who will be a much more difficult problem than those returning from active aircrew service. After all they will have spent two or three or four years in German camps, during which time they will not have been leading an active life, and they will have been almost completely out of contact with the world. They will, therefore, have developed an outlook on life which will tend to prevent them from making ready adjustments on their return. Those who have studied the position ' that ensued after the last war realize that these men will be particularly sensitive and will have to be carefully and delicately handled when they return. I suggest, therefore, that their position should receive special consideration and the attention of the best experts, psychologists, and psychiatrists who can be found in the country.
On the point of prisoners of war, I would also request that the strong support of the minister be given in an endeavour to see that the number of next-of-kin parcels for overseas is increased. I know that a limit was imposed owing to transportation difficulties, but that limit was imposed during the days when the battle of the Atlantic had been by no means won, when shipping losses were great, and when the means of sending parcels overseas were greatly restricted. Conditions are now improved so far as that phase is concerned, and this is one of the first things we should do with the extra transport facilities available, because it is a well known fact, not only from messages received from overseas but from information gathered from men who have been repatriated from prison camps, that the thing that is keeping our boys alive in those camps to-day and preventing them from suffering from bad nutritional deficiencies, is the receipt of Red Cross and next-of-kin parcels. That point, therefore, should receive far greater attention than it is receiving at the present time.
May I say a brief word about the matter of cutting down of training camps. The minister did not volunteer any information, at least

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I did not notice any, as to why recruiting is being cut down. I noticed in the press that they are going to establish a new level of training. According to the Canadian Press of February 26 it was stated that the intake of aircrew had been temporarily slowed down but would shortly be reestablished at a new level. The minister should give more information in that regard. He should give us some indication as to the reasons why these training centres are being cut out; and if it is not transgressing on security policy, some indication should be given of the speed with which they will be closed.
In that connection, I make this suggestion to the minister. He gave some reasons on February 29 as to the factors that will be considered in the cutting down of schools. There is one factor which I would impress upon him, and it is one to which I referred the other day. I have been endeavouring in my own way to impress it on the ministry ever since I came here. More attention should be given the question of congestion. The point was raised in the house yesterday by the hon. member for York-Sunbury (Mr. Hanson), that in Ottawa there was no room for fifty aircrew who are here for the purpose of being trained, and that the conditions under which they are living are not satisfactory. Surely a city like Ottawa is the first place that should be cut out from the point of view of air training stations, because there are less congested areas particularly in the province from which I come.
Probably the minister will bear me out that it is one of the best provinces as far as the training of aircrew is concerned. They have ample space for flying, little difficulty as regards fog; there are no mountains in the way, and in addition to that we are in a position to accommodate aircrew better than some centres which are congested, such as Ottawa. I know it is easy to say these things, but it is a little difficult to impress this upon people in this part of Canada-and I do not say this in order to make any reflection. The attitude of mind I have run into, however, is this. Most of the permanent air force have lived here the greater part of their lives. They have lived in this part of the country; they have spent their time in Ottawa and in various large centres in the middle section of Canada, and they have not been in Saskatchewan or Alberta.


Charles Gavan Power: High River, Alberta, was one of the original stations for the permanent air force and I understand it was a very good one.


Alfred Henry Bence: I am talking about the people who are guiding policy. Most of them come from this part of the country, and naturally they think of this part of the country when it comes to establishing stations. Let me give an example. I was discussing the matter with a friend of mine from western Canada. He is in the air force, and he was listening in on a conversation that had to do with the establishment of a place for storage in connection with the air force. The people who had the say canvassed the situation, and they said there was no room in Ottawa but they might try Windsor, Hamilton, Montreal or some other places. This man said to them, "Did you ever think there are places in the prairies?" It did not occur to these particular individuals to go that far.


Charles Gavan Power: You do not make enough noise, you people from the west.


Alfred Henry Bence: We are finding that it is necessary to bring these things to the attention of the house, and they are quite reasonable. I am going to keep plugging away at it until I get some satisfaction.
There is one point on which I think the committee and the country are entitled to a little more information in connection with the policy of the air force. It was recently announced that a number of high ranking air force officers were being retired. The minister referred to the matter the other day. Although I have no accurate information on the point, I believe that the ones being retired are practically all permanent air force men, and the impression was given the committee the other day that they are being retired because they are getting on in years and that they will be replaced by younger men. I would be the last to object to a policy of giving younger men an opportunity, but the information I have is that these men have been raised rapidly in rank in the last few years; that before they are retired they are advanced another rank, and that this has its influence on their pension. Many of them are being retired on a fairly substantial pension and some are as young as forty-eight and forty-nine. It seems to me that if they are available; if they are healthy and have the mental capacity and ability which enabled them to rise to the position they now occupy, they should not be retired on such pensions at this time when we need the services of all the trained men we have in the country. We simply cannot allow men of ability and men with their health and training to be retired at this particular time. I raise that point for

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the minister's consideration, and I think that he should give us some information as to the number-I do not want particulars about individuals-of those men who have been retired and some idea of the ranks they hold, some idea of their capacity, their health, and an indication as to the amount of pensions they will be receiving in their respective ranks.


Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: Most of the members of the committee have commended the minister for his very fine speech and commented on his happy facility of getting estimates through the committee.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It is his good nature.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I think it is the minister's good nature and his very human approach. Because of his courtesy the minister has the faculty of making the committee feel that it is a joint effort; that this is not his war or the Liberal party's war. It is a national effort, and all the members and all the people of Canada have some part in discussing and putting forth their ideas with reference to it.
I wish to give an illustration of that. In my constituency there was a Royal Canadian Air Force flying station which was to be closed. At least, the rumour was that it was to be closed and many people were worried about it. As I say, there were all sorts of rumours going around. Some said it was going to be closed. Some said it was going to be torn down. I have never considered it to be my business to bother the minister about where he should build a flying station or whether he should close it or open it. I have considered that it was his business and that of the government. Entirely unsolicited from me the minister was kind enough to drop me a confidential letter telling me that the station was being disbanded but that another one was taking its place. That other station has since taken its place. It was a small matter.


Charles Gavan Power: I am afraid I spoke too quickly. There have been changes since.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: May I point out to the minister that the station has been transferred. No* 8 service flying training school has taken the place of No. 41 service flying training school unless another change has taken place.


Charles Gavan Power: Another change has taken place since that letter was written, and it applies to a large number of places. I am not sure whether it applies to the one to which the hon. member has reference.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: That does not alter the fact.


Charles Gavan Power: I will take my letter back now.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I do not want it taken back. I wish to express my appreciation of the minister's courtesy. It is something that some of the other ministers might well copy. In the early stage of the war, opposition members were somewhat in demand when victory loans came along and recruiting speeches had to be made; but as the war has progressed I have noticed that during victory loan campaigns and during some of the other campaigns that have been put on, opposition members have been left very severely alone. The government ministers get the very best kind of cooperation when they take the trouble to cooperate with the members of the different constituencies and give them the feeling that it is not a war effort on behalf of the Liberal party but a war effort on behalf of the Canadian people.
The minister has shown a very human and realistic approach to this problem of repatriation, demobilization and rehabilitation. I believe he does well to break that problem into three parts, because the parts are distinct and separate. First of all, there is the problem of bringing the men back to this country, the problem of repatriation; second, the problem of how and in what numbers and at what time they shall be returned to civil life, the problem of demobilization; and, third, the problem of reestablishing them in civil life.
The minister made at the end a stirring plea asking that we should not think entirely in materialistic terms but rather in the spiritual terms of national well-being. As we have trained these men to defend Canada we should now give them an opportunity to develop Canada. I should like to say to the minister that puts the ball right back on the government side of the house. After all, these men coming back cannot develop Canada unless those who control Canada, both in the business and in the political sense, give to these men the leadership which will be necessary if they are to develop Canada. Unless the government is prepared to lay down the plans which will be necessary and have them ready so that when these men come back there will be something definite for them to do, then we shall have a disillusioning experience indeed.
I cannot agree with the hon. member for Danforth who took the minister to task for dealing with this matter. I think we all believe that winning the war is most important and I think we all know the war is far from won. But I believe the minister is right when he recognizes that one of the fears that is

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most dominant in the minds of the people of Canada and in the minds of the men and women in the service, is the fear of what will happen when the war is over. That is a totally different mental outlook from that of the last war. My father went to the last war. He went from a job into the army. Two days after he came out of the army he was back at his old job and in his old place again. As the minister stated, however, many of these men never had a job, or if they did have a job they still remember the periods when they walked the streets looking for a job. They have come out of a period of insecurity and unemployment and they are afraid of returning to it.
It seems to me that while the minister may say that you cannot solve this problem with a cliche, the government has the responsibility lying at its door. After repatriation and demobilization are dealt with the government has two responsibilities. The first is to train every one of these men to take his place in civilian life irrespective of what time that may take; second, to see to it that after he has been trained he is placed in a gainful occupation.


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: We have been saying that for a year.


Mr. DOUGLAS (Weybum):: It has not been done for a year. It has not been done at all. The senior hon. member for Halifax said, when we were talking about having no plans, that there were extensive plans. Where are they? When we ask, "Where are they?", he says, "There are counselling committees set up." Of course, setting up committees to give counsel is not supplying jobs, but merely helping men to find the kind of job toward which they ought to go, and that is probably as far as the responsibility of this particular department of government goes; but it is not the full extent of the responsibility of the government. It has a much greater responsibility. The senior hon. member for Halifax should not confuse having employment offices with employment, no more than before the war setting up the unemployment insurance commission necessarily abolished unemployment. As I have already said, this government will have the responsibility of training these men, and of placing them either in private industry or, if there is no room in private industry, of having laid down careful plans for socially useful projects that will guarantee employment to every man whom they have trained.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is being done every day.


James Lester Douglas: The minister says it is being done every day.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Thousands and thousands.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: In many
instances it has not been done, as the minister knows very well. If it is being done every day, let me ask the minister what plans he is prepared to place before this house not to absorb a hundred men or five hundred men but to absorb half a million or three-quarters of a million men.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I shall be glad to state them at the proper time.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I hope the minister will do so.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Will the hon. member understand it?


Mr. DOLTGLAS (Weybum):: In connection with the task of training these men and placing them in gainful employment, I wish to ask the Minister of Defence for Air if any plans have yet been made as to the disposition of the airports? The minister knows there is talk of seme of them being closed already. Are they to be sold? Are they to be leased or torn down? I wish to make a suggestion to the government that if they are going to train men-and they will probably have to train a quarter of a million or more men in this way- there is no better place to train them in various trades and occupations than in those airports. Many of them have dormitory accommodation for anywhere from a thousand to fifteen hundred men; they have workshops, hangars, recreation rooms and so on. Large groups of men could be placed in those airports on pay and allowances, as has been suggested already, there trained in various occupations and trades and later put into either private industry or the house building or rural electrification programmes sponsored by the federal, provincial and municipal governments. What disposition will be made of the airports, and what will be done with them in the rehabilitation period?


Charles Gavan Power: If the hon. gentleman will read my statement, at about page 1029 of Hansard, probably he will get the answer to his question. It is exactly along the line he has suggested.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Then I should like to support the suggestion advanced by the hon. member for Vancouver North in connection with groundcrew. I came into the chamber while the hon. member was speaking; I did not hear his statement, but I understand that he was considerably amazed and amused

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by the comment I offered last year in regard to the Dieppe operation particularly, in view of the fact, he said, that my observations were based on a Cook's tour and some experience as a chaplain in the reserve army. I should like to tell the hon. gentleman that I have never been on a Cook's tour, and I have never been a chaplain in the reserve army or any other kind of chaplain. I only hope the rest of the information he gave the committee was more reliable than those two statements.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I shall be glad to convey the hon. member's message.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: As a matter of fact, my observations on the Dieppe operation were the result of conversations with men who, like the hon. member for Vancouver North, have been overseas, men who were engaged in that operation.


George Alexander Cruickshank: The hon. member said he had -been there.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I said I had visited there in 1936. My observations in 1943 were not based on my having been there in 1936; they were based on conversations with men who had been in the Dieppe operation. It may be interesting to the hon. member for Vancouver North-


Mr. WHITMAN:: The hon. member is
addressing the hon. member for Fraser Valley.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I am his parliamentary assistant.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I am not concerned with the remarks of the hon. member for Fraser Valley. It may interest the hon. member for Vancouver North to learn that the statement I made as a result of conversations with men who had been in the Dieppe operation coincided very closely with the statement made later by Lord Keyes, who had some slight knowledge of military operations when as Sir Roger Keyes he was in charge of the famous Zeebrugge operation.
However, I wanted to support the plea of the hon. member for Vancouver North with reference to R.C.A.F. men with R.A.F. squadrons, particularly men in groundcrew, in the matter of being given leave at the end of certain periods of time. I have received letters from men in Palestine, India, Ceylon and Africa, who have worked with R.A.F. squadrons and some of whom have been away for a considerable period of time. They have no immediate prospect of leave. Probably the minister knows better than anyone in this committee how much even the prospect of leave is a factor in maintaining a man's morale. Let me show the minister how it reacts on the
civilian population. In the town in which I live, there was, as the minister knows, an R.A.F. station at which there were some twelve hundred R.A.F. men, a good many of them ground personnel. They 'were taken into the homes of the people of the community, who liked them very much. These men would say, "Well, as soon as my two years are up, of course I shall be sent back to England. We signed up here for two years." Our people would say, "Well, our boys are in England and in Africa, but we have no assurance that they will be back in two years." Many of them would ask me how it was that the R.A.F. boys could be so sure that they would go home in two years, while some of our boys had been over there since early in 1940 and we had no idea when they would be able to come back. So that I suggest-to the minister that he has a real point there and that it would be a great thing if these men could know that after a definite period of service they would be allowed to return to Canada. I realize that there are all kinds of shipping difficulties which might make this impossible, but I would ask the minister to give this very serious consideration.	[DOT]
I wish to ask only one other question. As the minister knows, in other years I have raised the question of the extent to which the R.C.A.F. could be operated overseas as an individual unit. The minister told me two or three years ago that increasingly R.C.A.F. squadrons would be built up, and I am very glad that they have been set up. Last year the minister said that the reason why so many R.C.A.F. squadrons had to operate with the R.A.F. was that we could not supply them with groundcrew. Since then I have wondered if the minister has given any thought to the possibility of having R.C.A.F. squadrons operated by the R.C.A.F. with R.A.F. groundcrew. When the minister is answering these various questions I would ask him to give the committee some information as to whether or not it will be possible for the R.C.A.F. to operate under its own administrative staff and headquarters, or whether we shall continue to have a large number of R.C.A.F. squadrons operate under the R.A.F.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
2. Pay and allowances, $323,315,744.
Charles Gavan Power: Perhaps I had better say now that on another occasion I shall be very glad to answer a large number of the questions which have been asked. I could answer some of them now if the committee so desires, but if the committee prefers to carry on I can wait until Monday, when my estimates will come up again.

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George Alexander Cruickshank: Might I say a word just to keep the record straight in regard to the hon. member for Weyburn. I quote from Hansard of February 17, 1943, at page S05:
In 1936 I spent a day in the town of Dieppe, and I would imagine that even aerial photographs would show the impossibility of scaling a sea wall unless it had first been partly demolished by aerial bombardment.
So that the hon .member for Vancouver North presumed that the hon. member for Weyburn was speaking from his military experience in regard to Dieppe.


Gordon Graydon: I think it would be preferable for the minister, if he is in a position to do so, to answer now what questions he can. That might keep the record straight.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Perhaps the minister
would accept another question or two before he begins to give his answers. He stated that the R.C.A.F. now had forty-two squadrons which were maintained and serviced by our own boys and at our own expense. In order to keep the record as straight as possible I should like to ask, since I suppose there are still great accounting difficulties, whether Canada is bearing the full cost of everything entailed in a bombing raid or a fighter sortie in connection with these forty-two squadrons.


Charles Gavan Power: The answer is yes, in connection with bombs, ammunition and so on,


Harry Rutherford Jackman: That is splendid. In other words, we are entirely independent and carrying the whole burden of the cost?


Charles Gavan Power: Yes.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Then the minister stated the amazing fact that from twenty-two to twenty-five per cent of all aircrew under British tactical command is composed of Canadians. Could he say how many of these twenty-two per cent or twenty-five per cent represented aircrew in R.A.F. units? In other words, I want to know how many of our men, out of that twenty-two per cent or twenty-five per cent, are not in R.C.A.F. independent units. Do I make myself clear?


Charles Gavan Power: I have already said that
about ten- men- are in R.A.F. units, to one in R.C.A.F. But let me give a figure. For example, if there are 5,000 pilots overseas, about 500 of them would be in R.C.A.F. squadrons. The remainder would be in R.A.F.-pilots, only. The same applies all the way down with regard to bombardiers, wireless operator air gunners, and so on.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Of the twenty-two per
cent to twenty-five per cent, about ten per 
cent, or one-tenth of that, which would be between two per cent and1 three per cent, are our aircrew?


Charles Gavan Power: I cannot follow my hon.
friend in his percentages; but I shall let it go at that, if he thinks it is all right.


Gordon Graydon: The minister is very
agreeable.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Between two per cent
and three per cent of -the aircrew provided by Canada make up the forty-two squadrons. That is what actually happens. The minister said a moment ago it was ten to one.


Charles Gavan Power: I cannot understand my hon. friend. I would like to, but I do not quite understand what he is trying to say.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: I am trying to find out
how much of the cost of the flying done by Canadians is borne. The minister says about ten per cent is self-contained in R.C.A.F. units. The other ninety per cent of aircrew are serving in R.A.F. units, and all the cost-


Charles Gavan Power: Oh, I know now what my
hon. friend is getting at. I am beginning to have some comprehension. But I do not know whether his figures are correct, because I am not much good at mental arithmetic.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: The R.A.F., through the British, are paying for the total cost, apart from the payment of personnel, of the planes and ammunition used by ninety per cent of our aircrew. Is that not so?


Charles Gavan Power: We pay a per capita charge for dental and medical services, and things of that kind. But I do not think we pay for the bombs dropped on Berlin by R.A.F. squadrons, and I do not think anyone expects us to,' either.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Or for the aircraft flown by our boys in the R.A.F.? They pay all the costs, except as to personnel.


Charles Gavan Power: Except that a good many
of the aircraft are supplied by my colleague the Minister of Munitions and Supply under mutual aid arrangements.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: In other words, the state of account between the R.A.F. and the R.C.A.F. is still in the hopeless tangle the minister mentioned a year ago. He does not know what share of the cost we are bearing, and what share Great Britain is bearing.


Charles Gavan Power: I know how much it costs
for our expenditures overseas, because I have the figure right here.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: But the fact remains,
nevertheless, that our boys-


Charles Gavan Power: Overseas expenditures this
year, for 1944-45, will be $463,157,142. That is fourteen per cent higher than last year.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: The reason I asked for
a break-down of the figures is simply this, that in Canada we take great credit to ourselves for the mutual aid given to Great Britain and.! the other allies. We also take credit, and Quite properly so, for the tremendous contribution we are making by way of aircrew. But what I wish to find out from the minister, if I can, is how much financial burden is being assumed by Great Britain in providing the aircraft, the necessary bombs and so on, for that ninety per cent of R.C.A.F. aircrew which for the time being is attached to R.A.F. units. When we take credit for R.C.A.F. aircrew flying over some part of Germany, we must also remember there is a big expense entailed not only in the aircraft but in the bombs. So that I wish to be able to find out exactly the separate contributions by Great Britain and Canada. I do not suppose the minister can give it.


Charles Gavan Power: No, and I do not think the minister's job is to talk for any other nation than Canada-and he is talking for Canada. He is telling the committee what Canada has done, and he is going to continue to do so. The people on the other side of the ocean tell us often enough what they have done. My job is to talk for Canada. Churchill and Sinclair will talk for the Royal Air Force.


The CHAIRMAN:: The present discussion would come more properly under an item. The minister has not his officials with him. I thought the discussion would be general.


Mr. MacKENZIE (Neepawa):: In view of the statement in the Globe and Mail of Saturday, February 26, would the minister explain to the committee his policy with respect to recruiting in the women's division, and also with respect to ground forces?


Charles Gavan Power: I believe that matter was mentioned in my statement. This is found at page 1030 of Hansard4.
In addition to the men required by the Royal Canadian Air Force, we have enlisted and trained over 15,000 in the women's division. Here again we have reached our peak and no further personnel are needed to bring our establishments to full strength beyond what have already been enlisted and are awaiting training, and accordingly, enlistment for the women's division of the Royal Canadian Air Force has been curtailed to the comparatively small numbers required for replacements.
2, 1944	1103
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Alfred Henry Bence: I do not understand the procedure. Is the minister to answer the various questions asked, or are we to proceed item by item?


Charles Gavan Power: I had intended answering the various questions as we went along. My colleague, the parliamentary assistant, has already prepared the answers to some of the questions asked. If the committee will permit, he will proceed to give those answers, some of which are rather lengthy.


Mr. MACMILLAN:: Several hon. members have asked questions with respect to air mail.
During the latter part of November, the Royal Canadian Air Force was asked to attempt to provide a supplementary air service from Canada to the United Kingdom, and from there to the Mediterranean theatres of war to assist in expediting mail to the troops overseas. This was a tremendous undertaking, considering the length of the route, the mileage of which is 3,100 miles from Ottawa to the United Kingdom, 2,850 miles from the United Kingdom to Italy, and 1,850 miles from Italy to Cairo. The total mileage is 7,450 miles one way, or approximately 15,000 miles for the round trip. One round trip per month to be made as far as Cairo and the remainder of the flights to finish in Italy.
The purpose of the service was to hasten mails for Canadian forces in the United Kingdom and Mediterranean war theatres, and also the return mail from troops to their families at home. It was also to help remove a large backlog of mail which had accumulated; some in Canada, and the majority in the United Kingdom, due to insufficient transportation facilities, and in addition, to attempt to get as much of the mail as possible through to the troops for the Christmas-New Year season. The service was, and is, planned to continue as long as such a service is necessary.
At the time the Post Office Department requested the R.C.A.F. to consider this service, aircraft of a type suitable for this operation were not available in Canada or Great Britain. It was therefore necessary to approach the United States authorities in order to get the necessary equipment. Through the kindness and cooperation of these authorities six fortress aircraft were to be made available as quickly as possible. The aircraft to be supplied were not new aircraft, but were aircraft which had seen, in some cases, a considerable amount of service and, therefore, maintenance difficulties were to be expected. It was impossible to procure new aircraft due to United States commitments in various war theatres,

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and it was therefore necessary to accept what we could get and do the best that we could with them until we had sufficient time to overhaul and make the necessary modifications.
Great credit is most certainly due to every member of the mail squadron, both air and ground personnel, for the results achieved and the cheerful spirit maintained in spite of their many difficulties.
In spite of the difficulties encountered during the two months' period from the commencement of the service on December 15, 1943, until February 15, 1944, a considerable volume of mail has been carried. In actual figures, this is as follows:
Pounds
Between Canada-United Kingdom
and return	 57,920
Between United Kingdom-Mediterranean theatres and return		89,918
Total	 147,838
Of the total of 89,918 pounds carried to and from the Mediterranean area, 45,619 pounds of letter mail has been delivered to our troops. This represents a total of approximately two and one quarter million letters, and is the equivalent of well over twenty-five letters to every member of the Canadian expeditionary force in the Mediterranean area.
On the return flights from the Mediterranean area to the United Kingdom it has seldom been possible to fill the aircraft to capacity with Canadian outgoing mail. The balance of the load is then made up of British and United States outgoing troop mail, which enables us to reciprocate to some extent for assistance we have received in the past from the air transport services of these two countries. It is emphasized, however, that Canadian forces mail carries number one priority and that British and American mail is only carried on return flights from the Mediterranean areas to the United Kingdom and only when insufficient Canadian mail is available to make up a full load.
From the experience now gained it has been decided to place three twin-engined transportation aircraft already owned by the R.C.A.F. at a base near the entrance to the Mediterranean to take care of the mail service from that base to the theatres of war in the Mediterranean. These aircraft are considered entirely suitable for operations in that particular area. As a result of this, we shall then be able to concentrate our flying fortresses on the north Atlantic route, which should have a marked effect on the frequency of service.

While no firm forecast can be made of the future frequency of operation, it is nevertheless felt that with the gradual improvement we are now experiencing in our maintenance difficulties and the expected improvement in the north Atlantic and Mediterranean weather conditions within the next month and a half the frequency of service will be improved.
The hon. member for Fort William asked a question with regard to the method of distribution of Memorial Crosses. Originally the crosses were delivered by registered mail from the records office. Later, for an extended period prior to February 7, 1944, the chaplains services undertook delivery, making personal calls wherever possible and sending the crosses by registered mail to outlying districts. It was found that the presentation of crosses by chaplains was delayed at times owing to the many and onerous duties of the chaplains' services. It was felt that since it was not possible for chaplains to make personal calls in outlying districts this method of delivery discriminated against the next-of-kin in those districts.
Accordingly, effective February 7, 1944, all Memorial Crosses are now delivered to next-of-kin from the records office. They are accompanied by an engraved card which states:
This Memorial Cross is forwarded to you by the Minister of National Defence for Air on behalf of the government of Canada in memory of one who died in the service of his country.
This method of delivery is proving satisfactory.


Charles Gavan Power: Several members have asked questions with regard to the transfer of Canadian nationals who are now members of the R.A.F. or the W.A.A.F. to the R.C.A.F. Perhaps I may be permitted to table the regulations which are three or four pages long and have them inserted in Hansard. I shall do so with the consent of the committee. They are as follows:
Regulations governing the transfer of Canadian
Nationals who are members of the R.A.F
or W.A.A.F. to the R.C.A.F.
1.	Up to the present time the policy respecting the transfer of Canadian nationals, who are members of the R.A.F., to the R.C.A.F., has been to consider only applications from personnel who are highly qualified, either from a technical standpoint or in some special phase of training operations in which the R.C.A.F. has a deficiency. Such transfers have been the exception rather than the rule, and the overriding principle has been that transfers will not ordinarily be made.
2.	The question of such transfers was discussed during the B.C.A.T.P. conference at Ottawa in May-June, 1942, and appendix S to the minutes of the conference is as follows:
"It is agreed that United Kingdom and dominion partners will consider applications of individuals for transfer to the air forces of

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their own nationality with a view to such transfers taking place wherever the circumstances make it desirable, and subject to its being found possible to make financial arrangements satisfactory to the individuals concerned."
3.	A large number of applications to transfer have been made, both in Canada and overseas, and are pending, and it is considered the matter should be brought to a finality and a general policy laid down with respect to the same.
4.	The policy and procedure with respect to such transfers was further discussed by the Minister of National Defence for Air and the under secretary of state for air at a conference at Ottawa, in February, 1944, and it was agreed, upon behalf of the governments concerned, that Canadian nationals, who are members of the R.A.F. or W.A.A.F., w-ould be permitted to transfer to the R.C.A.F. upon the terms and conditions and in the circumstances hereinafter set forth.
5.	A Canadian national for the purposes of such transfer shall be deemed to be either-
(a)	a person not ordinarily resident in Great Britain who is, under the provisions of any act in force in the Dominion of Canada, a national or a citizen of the Dominion of Canada, within the meaning of that act, or is a person born or domiciled in the Dominion of Canada. For the purposes of this definition a person who is resident in Great Britain shall be deemed to be ordinarily resident there unless he has been resident in Great Britain for less than two years or has been or is residing there only for the purpose of attending a course of education or the circumstances of his residence in Great Britain are otherwise such as to show that he is residing there for a temporary xjurpose only;
(b)	A British subject born or domiciled in the Dominion of Canada who departed from the Dominion of Canada for the purpose of joining the Royal Air Force and who in pursuance of such purpose has become a member of the Royal Air Force.
6.	The following classes of personnel, who are Canadian nationals, may apply to transfer to the R.C.A.F.:
(a)	Officers and airmen who joined the R.A.F.V.R. after the outbreak of the war.
(b)	Regular officers and airmen, and officers holding short or medium service commissions who joined the R.A.F. on or after 1st January. 1935.
(c)	Canadian-born women, not normally domiciled in the United Kingdom, who entered the United Kingdom to join the Women's Auxiliary Air Force before the establishment of the women's division of the R.C.A.F. in Canada.
(d)	Canadian-born women, resident in the United Kingdom at the outbreak of the war, who joined the Women's Auxiliary Air Force, provided they were not permanently domiciled in the United Kingdom, and did not enter the United Kingdom for the purpose of establishing a domicile.
7.	Procedure upon application
(a)	Applications by such R.A.F. officers or airmen and W.A.A.F. officers or airwomen are to be submitted on an approved form through their commanding officers. Such applications will then be passed through the usual channels to air force headquarters or R.C.A.F. overseas 100-70
headquarters, as appropriate, where they will be dealt with and considered in accordance with the administrative procedure laid down.
(b)	Upon approval by the appropriate R.C.A.F. and R.A.F. authorities, officer applicants will be required to relinquish their commissions in the R.A.F. or W.A.A.F., and airmen and airwomen applicants will be required to be discharged from the R.A.F. or W.A.A.F., and will be appointed to commissions or enlisted in the R.C.A.F. or R.C.A.F. (W.D.), as hereinafter provided, the effective date of appointment or enlistment in each case to be the day following the date of relinquishment of commission or discharge.
8.	No transfers are to be finally approved and carried into effect unless the appropriate R.A.F. authority concurs in the same and agrees to release the officer, airman or airwoman concerned with no financial adjustment by the government of Canada or by the R.C.A.F.-
(a)	in regard to any gratuity paid or payable to Canadian-born short service commission officers, or
(b) in respect of reserve service in the R.A.F., or
(c)	otherwise, howsoever, in the event of such transfer taking place.
9.	R.A.F. officers (permanent force) on the general list, and R.A.F.Y.R. officers on the general list, are to be transferred to and commissioned in the R.CA.F. special reserve, general list, in their temporary, substantive or war substantive rank (whichever is the highest) in the R.A.F. or R.A.F.V.R., with seniority in the R.C.A.F., special reserve, as of the date such temporary, substantive or war substantive rank (whichever is the highest) was granted to them in the R.A.F. or R.A.F.V.R. All acting ranks held at the time of transfer are to be relinquished.
10.	RAF, officers (permanent force) on the non-flying list, and R.A.F.V.R. officers on the non-flying list are to be transferred to and commissioned in the R.C.A.F., special reserve, non-flying list, in the same branch as that in which they are serving in the R.A.F. or R.A.F.V.R., or in any other branch for which they are considered suitable, and in their temporary, substantive or war substantive rank (whichever is the highest) in the R.A.F. or R.A.F.Y.R., with seniority in the R.C.A.F., special reserve as of the date such temporary, substantive or war substantive rank (whichever is the highest) was granted to them in the R.A.F. or R.A.F.V.R. All acting ranks held at the time of transfer are to be relinquished.
11.	W.A.A.F. officers are to be transferred! to and commissioned in the R.C.A.F. (W.D.) in the same branch as that in which they are serving in the W1.A.F, or in any other branch for which they are considered suitable, and in their temporary or war substantive rank (whichever is the higher) in the W.A.A.F. with seniority in the R.CA.F. (W.D.) as of the date such temporary or war substantive rank (whichever is the higher)^ was granted to them in the W.A.A.F. All acting ranks held at the time of transfer are to be relinquished.
12.	R.A.F. (permanent force) airmen and R.A.F.Y.R. airmen are to be transferred to and enlisted in the R.C.A.F., special reserve,-
_ (a) (i) in the same trade and group as that in which they are serving in the R.A.F. or R.A.F.V.R.. or



War Appropriation-Air Services
(ii) in any other trade and group for which they are considered suitable and which is comparable to that held in the R.A.F. or R.A.F.V.R., and
(b)	(i) in their temporary rank in the R.A.F. or R.A.F.V.R., or
(ii) in their classification in the R.A.F. or R.A.F.V.R., and
(c)	with seniority (if any) in the R.C.A.F., special reserve, as of the date such temporary rank or classification was granted to them in the R.A.F. or R.A.F.V.R.
All acting ranks held at the time of transfer are to be relinquished.
13.	Similar provisions to those set out in the immediately preceding paragraphs are to apply to the transfer of W.A.A.F. airwomen from the W.A.A.F. and their enlistment in the R.C.A.F. (W.D.).
14.	No rights, credits or any financial advantages accruing from or because of service in the EA.F., R.A.F.V.R. or W.A.A.F. may be carried over into or will be given credit for in the R.C.A.F. or R.C.A.F. (W.D.). All applicants must understand that from a financial standpoint they are starting anew. Officers so transferred shall not be entitled to the uniform allowances given to R.C.A.F. officers upon first appointment.
15.	The effective date of transfer to the R.C.A.F. shall be decided in each case between air ministry and the R.C.A.F. authorities.
The hon. member for York South asked a question along somewhat similar lines with regard to rehabilitation facilities and educational facilities being made available to Canadians in the R.A.F. This afternoon I put on Hansard a statement to the effect that predemobilization education and vocational training in either force would be available to the members of the other force. I have tried to make myself plain. In other words, if a Canadian is with an R.A.F. unit he could take advantage of the R.A.F. educational facilities. If a Britisher is with the R.C.A.F. he can take advantage of our educational facilities.


Joseph William Noseworthy: A Canadian who is in the R.A.F. cannot always take advantage of these facilities provided for the R.C.A.F.


Charles Gavan Power: It all depends upon where he is located. If he is located at certain stations he might have a chance.


Joseph William Noseworthy: I was thinking more of the period following the war.


Charles Gavan Power: Rehabilitation?


Joseph William Noseworthy: Yes.


Charles Gavan Power: With respect to pensions, if a man enlisted after 1935, or four years before the war in the R.A.F., he would be entitled, and if unfortunately he were killed his dependents would be entitled, to the same advantages and benefits as if he had enlisted in the R.C.A.F. That is covered by section 46A

of the act. In connection with rehabilitation I am sure the Minister of Pensions and National Health would be better able to explain that.
The leader of the opposition asked a question with regard to civil aviation. While I am in entire agreement with him I would rather he would discuss this matter with the Minister of Transport who is in charge of that phase of aviation. With regard to travelling time I may say that I am having this looked into and will have a reply ready on Monday.
With regard to equality of pay for our women's division I may say that I am entirely in agreement with the hon. member for North Battleford (Mrs. Nielsen). At one time there was a distinct difference in the rates of pay in all services. The women obtained only seventy-five per cent of the men's pay, and only seventy-five per cent of trades pay-which seemed to be somewhat of an anomaly. We did raise the seventy-five per cent to eighty per cent. Why we did not raise it to 100, I do not know. But we of the service did succeed in having a logical thing done, that if they were carrying on a trade and drawing trades pay, it did not seem sensible to give them only two-thirds of the trades pay; if they were doing a job of work they should at least have got 100 per cent.


Gordon Graydon: "Equal pay for equal work."


Charles Gavan Power: And that, at least in trades pay, has been arranged. As to the basic pay, it is still four-fifths of the full pay, and I have every sympathy with anybody who wants to raise it to the full amount.


Gordon Graydon: Why does the minister not raise it?


Charles Gavan Power: I will to-morrow, if somebody will give me the money.


Gordon Graydon: Surely we have money enough to raise the pay. I am afraid that is not a good enough answer. I do not say there is anything else the minister can say.


Joseph William Noseworthy: Put it in the estimates; the house will pass it.


Charles Gavan Power: I think so. On the question of leave for aircrew and groundcrew, I prefer to take that up and make a more general statement later on.
The question of prisoners of war is really a matter that comes under the Department of National War Services. The question of parcels for prisoners of war is a matter which does not come under this department at all. I am not aware, and would have no means

Italian Government
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of being aware, except indirectly, of what goes on with respect to prisoners of war parcels or prisoners of war.


Alfred Henry Bence: It comes under the Department of National Defence. There is a committee headed by a colonel of the department.


Charles Gavan Power: I am sorry. I am corrected. I should have known that Colonel Clarke is in charge of it. I could not quite define his duties.


Alfred Henry Bence: General supervision.


Charles Gavan Power: At the moment he has general supervision, and he has been very active indeed. He has done great work in trying to get parcels to prisoners of war in the east and in arranging for parcels for prisoners of war in Germany. The air force has a representative on the committee over which Colonel Clarke presides.
The hon. member for Saskatoon wanted to know why we did not add the factor of congestion to the factors taken into consideration in the matter of closing of schools. I must tell him that we do. We are endeavouring to close schools in the large centres, rather than in the smaller ones where the economic life of the community would be more seriously disturbed. With regard to Ottawa, I understand the school to which my hon. friend refers is what is called the W.E.T.P. school. It will be closed shortly. It is not a school where flying goes on; all the men connected with flying in the Ottawa district are accommodated either at Uplands or at Rockcliffe, where we have ample accommodation for them. They do not Cause any congestion of accommodation in the city of Ottawa.
Item stands.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Mackenzie (Vancouver Centre) the house adjourned at 11.05 p.m.
Friday, March 3, 1944