1944-03-21

[Stage Direction]
Mr. W. H. MOORE (Ontario) presented the first and second reports of the standing committee on banking and commerce, and moved that the reports be concurred in.
Mr. RALSTON:: I would ask my hon friend if he will allow the motion to stand for to-day.
Motion stands.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


Hon. HUMPHREY MITCHELL (Minister of Labour):: I table herewith copy of order in council P.C. 1902 appointing Mr. George B. Henwood, K.C., of Edmonton, as chairman of the western labour board succeeding Mr. Justice George B. O'Connor.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS


Hon. J. E. MICHAUD (Minister of Transport) :: Mr. Speaker, I desire to lay on the table the annual report of the Canadian

National Railway System for the year ended December 31, 1943; the annual report of the Canadian National (West Indies) Steamships Limited for the year ended December 31, 1943; the annual report of the Canadian National Securities Trust for the year ended December 31, 1943. I move:
That these reports be referred to the standing committee on railways and shipping owned, operated and controlled by the government, together with the following items of estimates for 1944-45:
387. Maritime Freight Rates Act, Canadian National Railways;
S88. Maritime Freight Rates Act, railways other than Canadian National;
1.08.	Canadian National (West Indies) Steamships Limited, capital advances;
1.09.	Prince Edward Island ear ferry and terminals deficit, 1944.
And that the resolution passed by the house on the 11th February, 1944, referring certain estimates to the committee of supply, be rescinded in so. far as the said resolution relates to votes Nos. 387, 388, 408 and 409.
Copies of the annual reports now tabled will be distributed to hon. members this afternoon.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. D. C. ABBOTT (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance):: On Friday last, the hon. member for Bow River (Mr. Johnston) quoted an item appearing in the Ottawa Citizen of March 16, as follows:
Edmonton coal mines will dismiss 250 employees March 23 and the pits will close March 31 unless the federal government subsidy of 50 cents a ton is continued, mine officials said here to-day.
The hon. member asked whether the subsidy of 50 cents per ton would be continued on coal so that these mines in Alberta will continue to operate. There is no subsidy paid to any mine in Canada on a flat basis of 50 cents per ton. Therefore, I assume that the hon. member was speaking about the price increase which was authorized under wartime prices and trade board administrator's order No. A-1008 of December 1, 1943. The price increases authorized under this order were made to compensate the mine operators for the increased wages they were instructed to pay their men by the regional war labour board under the chairmanship of Mr. Justice O'Connor of Edmonton.
The authorized increase on Edmonton coal was 65 cents per ton on lump, egg and domestic mine run. It was 50 cents on regular mine

War Appropriation-Supplies
run coal, 25 cents per ton on stoker, nut and pea slack, and 10 cents on slack. The 65 cent increase has to be reduced to 50 cents as of April 1; the 50 cent increase of mine run has to be reduced to 40 cents as of April 1. No reductions have been ordered on the other sizes.



FARM PRODUCTS

[Stage Direction]
FLOOR PRICES ON FEED GRAIN AND WHEAT On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. E. PERLEY (Qu'Appelle):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture. Will he be able to make an announcement with respect to floor prices on staple farm products before the Easter recess? As he is well aware, farmers are now laying plans and preparing for 1944 seeding, and after the Easter recess will be too late to allow for any changes that may be made. If there are to be changes, the farmers should know before seeding time.


Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) :: As I understand it, floor prices on feed grain are now established until July 31, 1944, and on wheat until July 31, 1945.



WAR APPROPRIATION BILL


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Monday, March 20, consideration in committee of a resolution to grant to His Majesty certain sums of money
for the carrying out of measures consequent upon the existence of a state of war-Mr. Ilsley-Mr. Bradette in the chair.

Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Munitions and Supply):: Mr. Chairman, when the com-, mittee rose we were dealing with air services of the Department of Transport, but I announced that the consideration of that item would be deferred until the estimates of the Department of Munitions and Supply had been dealt with. Therefore I would ask your leave to proceed now with my statement on the work of the Department of Munitions and Supply.
The estimates of the Department of Munitions and Supply for the current fiscal year total 183 million dollars, as compared with estimates for the last fiscal year of 166 million 300 thousand dollars. I would point out to hon. members, as I did last year, that the amount of the estimate for the Department of Munitions and Supply has no relation to the total sum of money to be expended bv the department. The Department of Munitions and Supply is the procurement agency for the armed services of Canada and her allies. The funds necessary to finance all purchases are supplied by those from whom requisitions are received.
The estimates of the Department of Munitions and Supply have been broken down under eight items, which breakdown I shall now place on Hansard.
Department of Munitions and Supply Draft Estimates 1943-44, 1944-45
Estimated	Estimated	EstimatedRequirements	Expenditures	Requirements1943-44	1943-44	1944-451. Additions and Extensions to Plants.	$195,000,000 00	$149,033,690 74	$ 60,000,000 002. Cargo Vessels-Operated by Park Steamships Limited	45,000,000 00	111,450,000 00	75,000,000 003. Housing Development	30,000,000 00	15,563,538 15	11,000,000 004. Land and Other Miscellaneous Physical Property	7,000,000 00	6,054,846 92	3,000,000 005. Production Subsidies and Other Miscellaneous War Expenses....	15,000,000 00	30,995,435 35	25,000,000 006. Loans to Commodity Companies....	15,000,000 00	7,909,427 87	7. Departmental Administration	9,300,000 00	10,000,000 00	9,000,000 00Total Departmental Expenditures..	$316,300,000 00	$331,006,939 03	$183,000,000 008. Revolving Funds for Working Capital (Recoverable Advances)....	-150,000,000 00	+662,500,000 00	Total Funds Administered	$166,300,000 00	$993,506,939 03	$183,000,000 00
100-107J
War Appropriation-Supplies

In making my report to the house on the production programme in this, the fifth year of the war, I would like to cite the following significant figures: The total dollar value of the contracts awarded by the Department of Munitions and Supply and its predecessors, the defence purchasing commission and the war supplies board, is now approximately 9 billion 450 million dollars. Capital expenditures by the government for war production purposes are in excess of 850 million dollars. I have had prepared a statement showing such capital expenditures up to December 31, 1943. I would ask that this be printed as a supplement to the votes and proceedings for the information of the members during the discussion of the munitions programme. It is important to note that the assets created by the government's capital expenditure, whether they be land, buildings or equipment, have remained in the ownership of the crown. The estimated total value of war production, including the value of deliveries on orders placed abroad, war construction and capital expenditures, in the fiscal year 1943-44, is 3 billion 435 million dollars, as compared with 2 billion 900 million dollars in the fiscal year 1942-43. We estimate that the number of persons engaged in direct and indirect war employment is in excess of a million, of whom about 800,000 are actually engaged in manufacturing war equipment. The fourth quarter of 1943 saw the highest level of employment in the history of Canada.
It is interesting to note that the value of war production proper, excluding capital expenditures, construction projects, and orders placed abroad, showed an increase of more than 150 per cent in 1942 over 1941, and an increase of about 35 per cent in 1943 over 1942. The value of war production proper for 1944 will show an increase of approximately 3 per cent over 1943. However, we are still in the early months of 1944, and our experience in the past indicates that the programme is usually stepped up beyond what we plan in the early part of the year. If we include capital expenditures, construction projects, and orders placed abroad, the estimate of expenditures for 1944 shows a decrease of approximately 7 per cent as compared with 1943. The rate of production in terms of dollar values reaches its peak in the first quarter of 1944.
In my last report, which was submitted to the house in June last, I pointed out that certain of our production targets had been attained. In the intervening months we have reached more of these objectives. I also stated in my last report that this did not necessarily mean any slackening of the overall effort. It did, of course, involve considerfMr. Howe.]
able programme revision, with some items reduced and others expanded. The house will understand that we must always allow for cancellations and changes in type when we attempt a long-range forecast of a production programme in time of war. It is possible to sketch the broad outlines of the programme, but there are bound to be variations, due to the changing character of the war, which cannot be anticipated. The changing strategy of war makes obsolete certain types of equipment, and creates the need for entirely new types of equipment. Generally speaking, the forecast of programme changes which I made last June has been realized in fact. I make this comment because I find a tendency on the part of some to express great alarm that in recent months there should have been changes in programme which have necessitated the transfer of employees to other places of employment. I wish to record that I told the house last June that certain changes in programme would occur. It can hardly be suggested now that they come as a complete surprise. Unfortunately, these changes are inevitable in a war production programme. For the most part, our -manufacturing capacity is sufficiently flexible to meet the constant need for programme revision. In many cases, when orders have been cancelled we have been able to convert the manufacturing capacity to other uses. But there will always be certain- capacity which is single-purpose, and is not suitable for other types of manufacture. Reductions or cancellations of programme in such single-purpose plants mean reductions in personnel. We cannot justify the employment of men and the use of materials in the production of equipment for which there is no longer any need. The Department of Munitions and Supply is working in close cooperation with national selective service in finding other useful employment for any personnel affected by lay-offs.
Before giving the house the details of each of the major programmes, I shall give the highlights of each programme, showing the accomplishment to date and the general trend of the programme in the next twelve months.
In 1943 we produced 4,133 aircraft, as against 3,811 in 1942, for a total production as at March 1 of 11,390 aircraft. The value of planes produced in 1943 was 50 per cent higher than in 1942, due to the predominance of larger types of more intricate design. The aircraft production programme will continue to expand with a transfer of effort from trainer aircraft to combat aircraft.
Armoured fighting vehicles produced last year number 15,500, as against 12,500 in 1942, for a total production to March 1 of 34,000

War Appropriation-Supplies
units. The production of self-propelled mounts, and of other armoured fighting vehicles, will continue at a high rate in 1944.
The production of mechanical transport dropped from 192,000 units in 1942 to 175,000 units in 1943, but we manufactured heavier and more costly equipment in 1943 than in 1942. The total production to March 1 is 593,000 units. This continues to be a major programme, and although we will produce fewer units in 1944 than in 1943, they will be of a heavier type.
The production of artillery gun barrels, carriages, and mountings, both army and navy, considered as separate units, totalled 45,000 in 1943, as compared with 31,000 in 1942, for a total production to date of 84,000 units. There will be a further cut in the production of army guns and a slight increase in the production of naval guns.
The output of machine guns, rifles and other small arms, jumped from 325,000 in 1942 to 580,000 in 1943, for a total production of
1,000,000 units. Production in 1944 will be slightly greater than in 1943, but this is weighted by the production of several new stores which can be produced at a higher rate.
In 1943 we produced 30 million rounds of gun ammunition, as against 28 million rounds in 1942. The total production since war began is 62 million rounds. Production in 1944 will carry on at approximately the same rate as in 1943.
The production of small arms ammunition increased from 1-2 billion rounds in 1942 to 1-5 billion rounds in 1943, for a total production to date of 3-3 billion rounds. This programme will be reduced somewhat during 1944.
Our total net production of chemicals and explosives in 1943 was 1 billion pounds, as against 860 million pounds in 1942, for a total production to March 1 of 2-3 billion pounds. This programme also will be reduced, and we have already had to close down one major explosives plant.
We produced 150 cargo vessels, or 1 million 478 thousand deadweight tons, in 1943, as against 81 cargo vessels, or 838 thousand deadweight tons, in 1942. The total production to March 1, is 249 vessels. There will be a slight reduction in the programme during 1944.
In 1943 we produced 100 naval vessels, as against 117 in 1942. However, the programme in 1943 was of a much more difficult and costly nature, so that a comparison by number is hardly accurate. The total production of escort vessels since war began is 336. There will be some revisions in this programme, with, reductions of certain types and the production of new types. Actual deliveries of escort vessels and other types of new naval craft will be higher in 1944 than in 1943.
Of a total of 4,300 orders placed for small craft, we have delivered 3,600. Deliveries on this programme will continue in 1944 at approximately the same level as in 1943.
The production of instruments and communication equipment in dollar cost was 180 million in 1943, as compared with 84 million dollars in 1942. The total value of production since the beginning of the war is 320 million dollars. This continues to be an expanding programme.
There was a slight decline in defence and other construction projects undertaken by the Department of Munitions and Supply in 1943, when the total amount spent was 194 million dollars, as against 219 million dollars in 1942. We have spent on construction since war began, including housing, 675 million dollars. There will be a sharp reduction in defence building during 1944.
Purchases of personal equipment, foodstuffs, fuel, hardware and miscellaneous stores, totalled at December 31, 1943, 2 billion 988 million dollars.


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: That is, since the war.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, the total from the beginning of the war.
I will now review each of the majoi programmes.
Aircraft: Of the 11,390 planes produced since the beginning of the war, over 2,000 have been first-line service aircraft. The balance of the programme is made up of trainer types, and one service type which is no longer used in front-line combat. Plane production in March, April, and May, 1943, totalled 971 craft, or an average of 324 planes a month. Production for the three months ending February 29 last was 1,309 planes, or an average of 436 monthly. This shows an increase in units of production of one-third, but the actual increase in poundage production is 50 per cent. Since the beginning of the war we have produced some twenty different types of aircraft. Despite the fact that we have had many programme changes, the general curve of production has been upward each year. There have been ups and downs in the number of planes produced, but the trend has been upward both in number and in weight.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Will the
minister permit a question?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Will he
make it clear how much, in percentage or otherwise, of this production is Canadian-made and how much is imported? I think that would be useful information.
War Appropriation-Supplies


Clarence Decatur Howe: Well, Mr. Chairman, the airframe is almost completely Canadian made, but we do not make engines.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I just
wanted to find out how much Canadian content there was.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Practically all the instruments are now made in Canada, and I think veiy little is imported except the engines.


Mr. ADAMSON:: Are the propellers made in Canada?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Mr. STIRLING:: Would the minister explain how the statement he is making connects with this schedule? For instance, he is referring to aircraft construction. I do not know what item of this that could be connected with.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I might point out that the function of the department is to do purchasing for the various branches of the government and the foreign governments, and they sflpply the money. We do not vote money for purchases of this kind. No. 7 would be the item it ties in with. But I assume that, in discussing the department, hon. members will want to know what the department is doing.
To illustrate this trend, I should like to place on Hansard a table which shows the number and the weight, ex-engines, of aircraft produced in Canada each year since the beginning of the war:-
Number of
Year	aircraft Poundage
1940	
846	1,628,1181941	1,697	6,358,4421942	
3,811	17,578.3091943	
4,133	20,088,864
We expect to produce 4,312 aircraft in 1944, for a total poundage of 21,430,000. In the number of planes produced per month, we reached our peak last January, with a total output of 455 aircraft. The shift in programme from trainer to service types tends to reduce the output in terms of numbers, since one service type may involve fifty times the man-hours employed on the production of a primary trainer.
Including the overhaul plants, the primary contractors and the sub-contractors, there are now 122,000 persons employed in aircraft manufacture, of whom 39,000 are women. The overhaul of aircraft in operation, in Canada, has become a major industry. We are now overhauling some 200 planes and approximately 1,000 engines each month.
I shall now give the house some details of the individual programmes, dealing first with the trainer programme.

We are building three trainer craft, the Cornell, a primary trainer, the Harvard, a secondary trainer, and the Anson, a twin-engined trainer. We are also producing the Norseman, which was used formerly as a service craft, and is now used for military transport. Because the trainer programme is tied in closely with the British commonwealth air training plan, there has been a marked falling-off in requirements for trainer aircraft in recent months, and consequently we plan to produce in 1944 considerably fewer trainer planes than in 1943. Production of Cornells in 1943 was at the rate of 125 per month, for a total production to March 1 of 1,579. The rate of production in 1944 will be 50 per month. During 1943 Harvard production was scheduled at 100 per month. This rate of production will continue until the end of 1944. We have delivered to date 1,849 Harvards. The house will recall that the Arison, the most important item in the trainer programme, wras one of our most difficult production jobs in the early years of the war. Federal Aircraft Limited, a crown company, was set up to administer this programme. During 1943 deliveries were made at the rate of 70 per month, total deliveries to March 1 being 2,413 aircraft. Of that number 560 have been of a new type, which is equipped with moulded veneer fuselage and a more powerful engine. In keeping with the current needs of the air training plan, the Anson production schedule has been curtailed very sharply, and production during 1944 will be at the rate of 35 per month.
There is a tendency on the part of some of our critics to make light of the trainer programme. I would remind the house that we could not have maintained the output of aircrew which is needed for combat service overseas if we had not had a plentiful supply of trainer aircraft. One of the-main objectives of the aircraft production programme from its very inception was to supply all the trainer aircraft needed for the operation of the British commonwealth air training plan. I am glad to say that we have succeeded in that objective.
Our production of service aircraft is now confined to four world-famous types, each of which is unsurpassed in its class. These are the Lancaster, the Mosquito, the PBY Catalina and the Curtis dive bomber. I say at once that each of these programmes has taxed the skill and ingenuity of our aircraft industry. In each case very elaborate tooling was required, and one of the most difficult bottlenecks has been the need to absorb and train large numbers of personnel concurrently

War Appropriation-Supplies
with production. I make no excuse for the time required to reach production forecasts. Anyone who had had any association with the aircraft industry in this country, in the United States or in the United Kingdom knows that it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to forecast with any degree of accuracy the time required to bring into full production a plane of complicated design which has not been produced in large numbers elsewhere. More problems have arisen in connection with the production of the Mosquito than of any other plane manufactured in Canada. We have maintained close touch with the manufacturer of this aircraft in the United Kingdom, and I may tell the house that the English producer has experienced the same difficulties that have been met here. In this connection, I think it may be of value to place on Hansard a table showing the comparative statistics on the production of the Mosquito in the De Havilland Plant in the United Kingdom and in the De Havilland Plant in Canada. In giving these figures I ask you to remember that the design originated with the English company.
Period after	Cumulative totals of aircraft
commencement	accepted
of manufacture	Canada	England19	months	
9	520	"	
18	821	"	
23	1322	"	
34	1723	"	
44	2024	"	
57	3025	"	
62	4726	"	
68	6227	"	
82	7628	"	
92	101
In monthly production, we reached our highest figure in Pebruary, with an output of 33 planes. Total production to date is 183 planes. We hope to reach a production of 52 per month by June next.
The plant producing Mosquitos is now under direct government control, and I am satisfied that the management is doing everything possible to accelerate the rate of production.
Turning now to the Lancaster programme, this, as hon. members know, is the largest four-engined bomber of this war to date. Considering the fact that our aircraft industry is but five years old, I think we may take some satisfaction from the knowledge that we are now producing one of the finest types of heavy bomber aircraft in existence. Here again there have been exceptional^ technical difficulties arising from the complexity of the design and elaborate tooling and engineering. Up to March 20, we had delivered 39 Lancasters. Of the two planes delivered to Trans-Canada Air Lines, one has established
a transatlantic flying record. Regarding the quality of Lancasters produced in Canada, I should like to quote from a letter which I have received from Sir Stafford Cripps, the British minister of aircraft production. The excerpt reads as follows:
I have just heard how well the first production Canadian Lancaster fared at the arrival conference held last week. My experts tell me that this is the best first production aircraft out of all the north American ones that they have ever seen. Since we have dealt*with some 90 of them, this is indeed a high compliment, and I should like' to offer my warmest congratulations to everybody concerned on an outstanding piece of work.
Our largest monthly production was in February, with an output of 9 aircraft. We hope to reach a monthly output of 17 by May and 30 by December. Victory Aircraft Limited, a crown company, is in charge of the Lancaster programme.
The PBY Catalina flying boat is one of the largest and most intricate aircraft produced on this continent. To date, we have delivered 273 Catalinas, with peak production in December, 1943, when we turned out 37 planes. This programme will continue until the end of 1944, with monthly production rising to the rate of 50.
The Curtis dive bomber did not come into production as early as we had anticipated, because of a great many modifications of design in the early stages of the programme. The design of this plane has now been frozen. Current monthly production is at the rate of 20 per month, and we hope to reach a production rate of 70 per month by midsummer and 130 per month by December, 1944. There are two plants engaged on this programme, one of which came into production in September, 1943; the other in October of that year.
In closing my remarks on aircraft production, may I repeat what I have said in this house on previous occasions. When the war began, we had an aircraft industry with some 1,000 employees. The industry had produced only very simple types of aircraft and these in small numbers. We now have an industry which employs 122,000 people and which is producing combat aircraft of the. latest and finest types. I do not pretend that I am satisfied with current rates of production, but I do say that, considering our small beginnings and the magnitude and complexity of the programme we have undertaken, the performance to date is a creditable one.
Military vehicles.-Canada has established a very fine reputation for the quality of its mechanical transport. As the house is aware, a large part of the transport used by the 8th Army in the African campaign was manu-
War Appropriation-Supplies

faetured in Canada. When the enemy was driven out of Africa, a number of military documents were seized. Among them was found a German reconnaissance order, which when translated reads as follows:
For the reconnaissance, as indeed for every desert reconnaissance, only captured Canadian trucks are to be employed, since German trucks stick in the sand too often.
Military transport from Canadian plants is in demand in every combat zone. Because of this, volume of production will continue at the highest possible level. There will, however, be some reduction in the number of units produced, since the emphasis is shifting from the 2-wheel drive chassis to the 4-wheel drive chassis, which requires more man-hours per unit. The current rate of wheeled vehicle production is 13,000 monthly. In addition to the production of complete units, the automotive industry and component manufacturers are devoting a large part of their capacity to the production of spare parts. The maintenance of transport in the field is possible only with adequate supplies of parts. During 1943 our spare parts production averaged in cost 7jj million dollars per month. During 1944 we expect to reach a figure of 11| million dollars per month. The production of armoured cars and reconnaissance cars was discontinued in 1943. The production of scout cars also stopped for a brief time, but will begin again this quarter, following the introduction of new designs. We also expect to produce some hundreds of armoured trucks during 1944. The programme in 1944 will include the manufacture of workshop lorries at the rate of 200 per month. In 1943 we completed all our orders for tanks. The capacity which was created for the manufacture of tanks is being used to produce self-propelled gun mounts, tank turrets and railway equipment. Our production of self-propelled gun-mounts, which operate on tank chassis, amounted to 1,928 in 1943. The current rate of production of this equipment is 150 per month. We have large orders under way for locomotives and other railway equipment for the combat areas. Locomotives for shipment overseas are now being produced at the rate of 24 per month. Our railway equipment manufacturers are working to full capacity on the production of freight cars and other types of rolling stock for home and overseas use. The universal carrier will, continue to be produced in 1944 at a rate of 900 per month. To date, we have delivered 24,000 universal carriers.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Before the minister leaves that point, is there any reasonable expectation of some automotive power being released for civilian purposes in Canada?

He knows, as I do, that there is a tremendous demand now for that sort of thing for essential services.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We are producing a limited number of trucks, the fewest w.e think will meet essential 'demands. We are being pressed for the greatest possible output of military vehicles, there being a shortage on all fronts.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The minister recognizes there is a need.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. We are maintaining that. As far as passenger cars are concerned I am afraid we cannot do anything.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I am not suggesting that.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We are, however, building trucks for civilian purposes.	'


Agar Rodney Adamson: Has there been any easing on purely military transport?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.
Communications.-It is difficult to speak of the communications and signals programme without burdening the house with excessive details. However, I shall give some round figures on the value of our production and a few highlights of the programme. The value of our production in communications in 1940 was one million dollars, in 1942 60 million dollars; and in 1943 136 million dollars. The radio and communications industry is now operating at a level some eighteen times greater than in 1939. We have orders on our books to the value of 400 million dollars, and we do not expect to reach peak production until the second quarter of 1944. To illustrate the diversity of the programme, I might point out that there are approximately 4,500 different items in current production by some fifty prime contractors and several hundred subcontractors. The items include: Amplifiers, antennce, cable, radio compasses, remote control units, radio direction finders, signalling lamps, power generators, quartz crystals, 25 types of radio receivers, 23 types of radio transmitters, 19 types of transmitting and receiving sets, 6 types of telephones, radio tubes, and switchboards, to mention but a few.
Some twenty major types of radar equipment have been developed for a variety of applications, ranging from one type for antiaircraft defence having 60,000 components, and 270 radio tubes, mounted in several large trucks, to small compact airborne units used for submarine detection at sea and target location on land.
Obviously, this is a type of equipment in which there must be constant and rapid

War Appropriation-Supplies
improvement if we are to maintain our superiority over the enemy. This means frequent change in design, which in turn requires great flexibility in production methods. A major factor in the production of communications equipment has been the contribution of Research Enterprises Limited, a crown company which was set up in the early months of the war. In 1943 the total value of the communications equipment produced by the company was 60 million dollars. The company also has produced optical equipment and instruments to the value of 10 million dollars. From its optical glass, Research manufactures binoculars, range finders, and a wide variety of other instruments.
In addition to these programmes, the communication industry is also producing fire control boxes and other sonic devices of many types, including torpedo components and a wide variety of gun-laying instruments. The entire communication programme is coordinated by the signals production branch of the Department of Munitions and Supply. This has resulted in the elimination of waste through the simplification of manufacturing practices and the more efficient use of manufacturing capacity.
Defence Communications Limited.-In addition to the production of communication equipment, the department is also building an extensive communication system for the armed services, through the agency of Defence Communications Limited, a crown company.
This company was set up early in 1943, to coordinate existing communication services, and to establish new services in eastern Canada. The communication system utilizes existing wire, telegraph and wireless facilities of the three armed services and of commercial operators. These services have been supplemented by the building of new facilities to the value of some three million dollars.
Guns. There have been drastic reductions in the production of army guns during 1943, as forecast in my statement of June last. The downward trend in gun production has been offset to a degree by the programming of certain new types of guns and new mountings. There will be further downward revisions during 1944. I am asked frequently why plant capacity which was created to manufacture army guns should not now be in full use. The reason is that we now have supplied the current and prospective needs of the armed services. Where it is possible, we are converting this plant capacity to other uses, but in many cases we think it necessary to maintain plants and equipment in working condition for stand-by purposes.
The current army gun production programme includes five types of barrels and several types of mountings, together with detector and fuse setting equipment required for the 3-7 inch anti-aircraft gun. Some of the manufacturing capacity which otherwise would have been idle is working on orders for China. We are now shipping to China two types of antiaircraft guns, as well as 6-pounder guns.
While the need for army guns is declining, we are continuing in full production of naval guns and mountings. This programme includes three types of naval gun barrels and eight types of mountings. We will come into production of another type of gun and mounting in the immediate future. Among the various companies engaged in naval gun production is National Railways Munitions Limited, a crown company, which has been a most efficient contractor.
Small Arms. In the small arms field, we discontinued, in 1943, the production of four types, the Boys antLtank rifle, two types of machine guns and the 3-inch mortar. We have just come into production with the 9mm. pistol, the 20mm. universal mounting, and the Polsten 20mm. automatic gun, a most modern and effective weapon. We have also begun producing a modified version of the Bren gun. Total production of Bren guns to date is
155,000.	Rifle production from the plant of Small Arms Limited, a crown company, was at a rate of 35,000 per month in 1943, for a total production of 530,000 to the end of 1943.


Agar Rodney Adamson: All weapons?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Five hundred and thirty thousand, all rifles.


Agar Rodney Adamson: That does not include
Stens?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. The current rate of production is 25,000 per month. The reduction is due to lower requirements of this store. Sten gun production by Small Arms Limited, which reached a peak of 8,500 per month in 1943, will continue in production at 5,000 a month during 1944. Here again the' reduced output is due to smaller requirements. There will be some increase in the production of 2-inch mortars, which will increase from 400 a month in 1943 to 600 a month during 1944. The production of bomb throwers will continue at a rate of 3,000 per month. In general, there will not be any great shrinkage in the small arms programme during the first half of 1944, but there may be considerable curtailment in the programme during the latter part of the year, when many contracts run out. Nevertheless, the small arms orders now on hand will mean a production in 1944 slightly in excess of that of 1943.
169S
War Appropriation-Supplies

Ammunition. The output of gun ammunition during 1943 was 30 million rounds. In addition to this, there was produced a total of 40 million cartridge cases and many millions of fuses and other components. A substantial proportion of these components are filled in Canadian shell-filling plants before being shipped abroad. In 1944 we shall fill some 33 types, including bombs and grenades. Among them is the projectile for the new Piat, an anti-tank weapon; an- anti-aircraft shell; two new grenades, and anti-submarine ammunition. There are in all more than 130 plants now engaged in manufacturing gun ammunition and components. In all, the programme involves the production of 154 varieties of shell, or other ammunition components. This programme will be curtailed1 somewhat, with operation during the balance of 1944 at approximately 75 per cent of peak capacity. Curtailment in the ammunition programme will also result in a decline in the output of fuses, primers, gaines, and cartridge cases.
Small Arms Ammunition. During the last half of 1943, production of small arms ammunition totalled 775 million rounds, ranging in calibre from '22 inch to 1 inch. This output included more than thirty different types. The major part of the production is carried on in two government arsenals. In the summer of 1943 the programmes were revised, with a shift to heavy calibre types. The current production rate is 118 million rounds per month. The new programme is scheduled to reach a rate of 122 million rounds per month.
Chemicals and Explosives. We reached peak production on chemicals and explosives during 1943. Curtailments in the ammunition programme will require about a 20 per cent reduction in the output of explosives. The only explosive for which the demand has increased is RDX. In line with declining requirements, rifle cordite production has been discontinued at two plants. TNT production and other explosives produced in the plant at Nobel, Ontario, have also been discontinued. The demand for chemicals such as ammonium nitrate, hexachlorethane, and some other chemicals, will continue at about the same level in 1944 as in 1943. The chemicals and explosives programme is tied in very closely with the shell-filling programme . The whole operation, which is administered by Allied War Supplies Corporation, a crown company, involves approximately fifty chemical, explosive, and shell-filling projects.
I would like to say a word here about the contribution of Canadian science in the development of chemicals and explosives. Canadian chemists have discovered the most effective method of manufacturing RDX, the
TMr. Howe.]
new super-explosive. They have devised improved and important changes in the manufacture of TNT. Canadian scientists have developed a process for large-scale manufacture of fuse powders. Hitherto, this had been considered more of a craft than a manufacturing process.
Shipbuilding.-Our shipbuilding programme from its inception was divided into two parts, the naval vessel programme, under the direction of the naval shipbuilding branch of the department, and the cargo vessel programme, which has been administered by Wartime Merchant Shipping Limited, a crown company. We have also had two crown companies actually engaged in the production of naval ships, the Toronto Shipbuilding Company, which operates a yard and fitting out berth, and Quebec Shipyards Limited, operating two shipyards and a fitting out berth. In December last it was decided to consolidate the naval and cargo vessel programmes. The whole programme is now under the general direction of the director general of shipbuilding of the Department of Munitions and Supply. Wartime Merchant Shipping Limited, which now becomes Wartime Shipbuilding Limited, will assume responsibility for the supervision of the larger naval vessel programme as well as the cargo vessel programme. The small boat programme, including wooden minesweepers, tugs and other miscellaneous craft, will continue to be under the immediate direction of the shipbuilding branch. This consolidation will eliminate certain duplication in servicing, and will make for more efficient operation. Late in 1943, a change in management was made in the Toronto Shipbuilding Company, with very satisfactory results. As a part of the recent change in the administration of the programme, the Toronto Shipbuilding Company has surrendered its charter and will now operate as a crown plant under the supervision of Wartime Shipbuilding Limited1.
I should like now to give some details of the two programmes, dealing first with naval vessels.
Naval Shipbuilding.-To the end of February we had delivered 336 escort and patrol vessels, including 28 frigates, 104 single screw corvettes, 92 steel minesweepers, 34 wooden minesweepers, and 78 Fairmile patrol boats. In addition to these deliveries, we launched 75 vessels of these types which are now being fitted out.
Under the naval vessel programme, we have also delivered three types of landing craft, the 52-foot ramped cargo lighter, the 72-foot Minca barge, and the 51-foot landing vessel. Total deliveries of this type of vessel at the

War Appropriation-Supplies
end of February amounted to 925. In 1943 our naval yards produced 45 tugs and two auxiliary tankers.
In addition to these major items in the programme, we have had orders for some 4,300 small craft. Of these, 3,600 have been delivered. The naval yards have also constructed a wide variety of special purpose vessels, including base and supply ships, concrete and wooden gate vessels, a floating dry dock, railway barges, steel and wooden derrick scows, ammunition and stores lighters, transport and salvage barges, tenders, target towing vessels, and 24 motor torpedo boats.
Late in 1943 we were advised of reduced requirements for certain types of escort vessels. The scheduled deliveries for 1944 will be 44 frigates, 18 single screw corvettes, 29 steel minesweepers, 45 wooden minesweepers, and 11 Fairmiles. This programme, although it is considerably less in volume than we had originally planned, will still represent in dollar cost our highest actual delivery of escort vessels. Deliveries of landing craft, small craft, and miscellaneous vessels, will be at a slightly higher level in 1944 than in 1943.
Some of the shipbuilding capacity which has been released through reductions in orders for escort vessels will be taken up with orders for a new type of landing vessel. We have also placed contracts for six 3,600-ton oil tankers in two of our naval yards. At the present time, ten of our shipyards and three outfitting yards are engaged on the naval programme. Five small yards are building other steel vessels such as tugs, lighters and auxiliary oil tankers and 62 smaller yards are engaged on the small boat programme.
In addition to the plants actually engaged in ship construction, there are the many plants turning out ship fittings and components.
Employment in the yards and in allied industries working on the naval shipbuilding programme is now running at 50,000 persons.
Cargo vessels: Our deliveries of cargo vessels at the end of February of this year amounted to two hundred and thirty-four 10,000-ton vessels and fifteen 4,700-tonners, making in all a delivery of 2,600,000 tons of shipping. We have planned for the delivery in 1944 of one hundred and two 10,000-ton vessels, including six which will be of a special type, and eighteen 4,700-ton vessels. At the present time, seven of our shipyards are engaged on the 10,000-ton programme and three of the smaller yards are producing 4,700-ton ships.
A word about the types of vessels we build:
First there is the North Sands, the original design for which came from England. We have made several modifications in this vessel,
increasing its deadweight tonnage from 9,300 to 10,350, and generally adapting it to Canadian construction methods.
Then there is the Victory Ship, which differs from the coal-burning North Sands type in that it is an'oil burner, with water tube boilers instead of Scotch marine boilers. It has more elaborate fittings and better living accommodation for the crew.
The third class, the Canadian type, uses the same basic hull as the North Sands and Victory types but can burn either coal or oil. This type was designed in Canada to provide an efficient general cargo ship for Canadian operations.
We are also building the Victory Tanker, which is a Victory freighter converted into an oil-carrying vessel.
Of the 10,000-ton ships scheduled for delivery in 1944, the majority are of the Victory type, but all of the 10,000-ton cargo vessel orders placed in recent months are for ships of the Canadian type.
The 4,700-ton vessels are all of the William Gray class. I might point out that these are by no means small ships. They are 328 feet long, carry a substantial payload, and are ideal for coastal trading. We have orders on hand for this ship which will carry over well into 1945. I would point out to the house that it is not the policy to freeze ship designs. Many modifications in design have been made, and a special technical committee is now studying this question with a view to improving the operating economy of cargo vessels.
In addition to the construction of cargo vessels, certain of our west coast yards are engaged on alterations to aircraft carriers for the British Admiralty.
Of our total production Of cargo vessels to March 1, fifty-four 10,000-tonners, including 10 tankers and thirteen 4,700-tonners, are in Canadian service. These vessels have been delivered to Park Steamship Company, Limited, the crown company which arranges for and supervises the operation of cargo vessels under Canadian registry. The balance of the output has gone to the maritime commission of the United States, the British Ministry of War Transport, and one 4700-ton vessel recently was turned over to the Government of Australia under the mutual aid agreement. It is anticipated that thirty 10,000-ton vessels, including 3 tankers, will be added to the Canadian merchant fleet by the end of August.
As the house is aware, vessels for Canadian service are requisitioned by the Canadian shipping board, which has first call on our output of cargo vessels. The route over which
War Appropriation-Supplies

the ships will operate is also determined by the Canadian shipping board. The selection of the operating company is made by Park Steamship Company, which signs the operating agreement on behalf of the government, and maintains close supervision' over operating costs. The operating agreements are basically the same as used by the British Ministry of War Transport with the various British shipping companies. The operating fees are modest, and all profits after the payment of fees accrue to the Park Steamship Company. I may say that operating results to date have been most satisfactory.
Ship repairs and salvage: As I have reported to the house in previous years, a large part of our shipbuilding capacity has been devoted exclusively to ship repairs. We have had to expend 10 million dollars in the expansion of ship repair facilities. Since the Royal Canadian Navy assumed complete responsibility for the north Atlantic convoy, the burden on our ship repair facilities has increased tremendously. In addition to the repairing and outfitting of naval vessels, the major part of the servicing of the merchant fleet has been .done on this side of the Atlantic. Bare figures hardly give a real picture of the magnitude of this undertaking. However, since January 1940 to December 1943 there have been repaired in Canada 25,000 vessels, naval and merchant. Five thousand of these were dry-docked for major overhaul.
Salvage operations have been carried on in conjunction with the control of ship repairs, resulting in the recovery of many valuable cargoes.
The destroyer programme is also under the direction of the controller of ship repairs and salvage. The boilers have been installed in our first destroyer, and the turbine units will be installed this summer. A second destroyer will be launched early this spring; the keel of a third destroyer has been laid and a fourth will be laid shortly. This programme has challenged the best that Canada can offer in the way of technical skill. I am glad to say that our Canadian engineering firms and workmen are measuring up to the test.
Construction.-Since the beginning of the war, the Department of Munitions and Supply has awarded construction contracts totalling some 455 million dollars. Practically all of this outlay has been for the construction of facilities for the armed services, such as air training schools, operational airports, naval establishments and army barracks. Up to 1943, the cost of construction projects averaged 100 million dollars per year. There will be a
TMr. Howe.]
sharp reduction during 1944, when we expect to spend 40 million dollars on construction projects. This programme has been in part under the direction of the director general of construction of the Department of Munitions and Supply and in part under the civil aviation division of the Department of Transport, which reports to the Minister of Munitions and Supply.
Housing.-Early in the war, it became apparent that emergency housing would have to be provided in areas where there was a heavy concentration of new war industry, or where new munitions plants were being established in locations remote from centres of population. This war emergency housing programme has been in charge of Wartime Housing Limited, a crown company. To date, the company has constructed 17,700 houses, 13 hostels, 69 staff houses, 15 bunk houses, 19 dining halls, 30 schools and 22 community buildings. Occupancy is currently about 98 per cent. Each housing unit is in charge of an administrator, who is responsible for the collection of rents and for other matters incidental to the operation of the unit. In 1943, tb? gross revenue of Wartime Housing Limited from rentals was slightly in excess of 6 million dollars. As those of you who have visited these housing units know, we have tried to make each of them a self-contained community unit, with all the services that a modern community requires. I think we have been particularly fortunate in our tenant relations. Under the guidance of Wartime Housing Limited, more than 80 social and educational programmes are in progress in these communities. These include child care and baby centres, supervised recreation for children and adolescents, nutrition courses, libraries, handicrafts, home improvement and garden clubs, and group health schemes. The objective always has been to minimize the dislocation in family and community life which is a by-product of war.1
Now that our production programme has reached its peak, the need for the provision of emergency housing has passed. The responsibility of Wartime Housing Limited will now be to administer and maintain its properties. In this connection, I would remind the house that Wartime Housing Limited was established for a specific purpose-to provide housing where and when a shortage of accommodation was likely to interfere with a munitions programme. The company has no jurisdiction in the field of general housing, which has continued to be the responsibility of the national housing administration.

War Appropriation-Supplies
General Purchases. The general purchasing division of the Department of Munitions and Supply is responsible for the procurement of personal equipment and the many items of service stores, such as food, fuel, medical supplies, hardware, etc. Total purchases to the end of 1943 amount to 2 billion 988 million dollars. We anticipate some reduction in the volume of purchases of this kind, but so long as the war lasts, and we continue to have hundreds of thousands of men and women under arms, the purchase of clothing, foodstuffs and medical supplies will continue to be a major factor in our budget. For example, we are now working on orders for 800,000 complete battle dress suits and 560,000 'pairs of boots. Speaking of medical supplies, on the requisition of the Department of National Defence we have created recently facilities for the production of penicillin. We expect to obtain this very important medical store in volume supply at an early date.
Early in 1943, a crown company, known as North West Purchasing Limited, was set up to purchase requirements of the Canadian armed forces and the United States armed forces in northwestern Canada. During the height of construction activities in that area, the expenditures of North West Purchasing Limited were running at the rate of 1 million dollars per month. With the completion of certain of the larger construction projects, we anticipate a considerable falling off in the volume of purchases.
The Plateau Company, a crown company established in 1940 to purchase and stockpile raw silk, was abolished in 1943. The functions of this company, which also include the handling of limited quantities of raw cotton, kapok and nylon, have been absorbed by Melbourne Merchandising Limited, another crown company which has been responsible for the purchase of bulk wool required by the government for war purposes, and for the allocation of yarn for certain types of production.
The house will remember that under the terms of the Hyde Park agreement, Canada and the United States agreed to exchange materials and equipment required in their respective war programmes. War Supplies Limited, the crown company which was set up in 1941 to act as the agency in placing orders in Canada for delivery to the United States, has had a busy year.
Controls. I have been speaking of the various production programmes under the direction of the Department of Munitions and Supply. Each of these programmes is dependent on- adequate supplies of raw and primary materials. This brings me to the second
phase of the department's activities, the work of the wartime industries control board. The board consists of seventeen controllers and a chairman, who is responsible for coordinating their activities. I shall preface my remarks on the individual controls by pointing out, as I have done before, that we have established controls only where conservation of a particular material was indispensable to the success of the production programme.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is almost everywhere.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No; only seventeen. By the same token, we relax controls whenever there is an easing of the supply position. This may be due in some cases to the building up of stocks of materials to the point where current and anticipated requirements have been satisfied, or it may be due to the falling off of a demand for a particular material due to changes in the requirements of the war services.
Coal. In normal times, we consume annually in this country approximately 26 million tons of coal, of which 14 million tons are produced in Canada and the balance imported from the United States. By 1943, our consumption had increased to 46 million tons, of which over 28 million tons have been imported. These figures will give the house some idea of our coal problem. Despite some improvement in the over-all production picture, there is no doubt that we shall have a serious coal problem on our hands for the duration of the war. As the house is aware, the problem of coal supply, like many other Canadian problems, differs from area to area. The output of domestic coals and lignites in western Canada has increased sufficiently to provide for home needs and to permit some export to the United States. In the maritimes, labour shortages and transportation problems have created shortages. We must have increased production if this area is to be self-contained. Central Canada is dependent to a large extent on coal imported from the United States. Our arrangements with the United States for the supply of bituminous and anthracite have been most satisfactory. While supplies of bituminous coal have been ample, we have not been able to obtain sufficient anthracite to meet our demands. Because of this, we have had to ask the householder in central Canada to use a certain proportion of bituminous coal. Some increase in the production of coke has helped to ease the situation.
Various measures have been adopted in an endeavour to stimulate Canadian production. The emergency coal production board, which operates under the coal controller, has provided financial assistance to mine operators in
War Appropriation-Supplies

various forms, especially in cases where the operation normally would be uneconomic. The board has also financed extensive stripping operations in western Canada. Late last summer, a fuel conservation programme was inaugurated for the industrial and commercial user and the householder; this has resulted in great savings in annual consumption. There was a time, early in the fall, when it seemed unlikely that we could fill our coal requirements. At that time, certain steps were taken by the coal controller to prevent hardship during the winter months. Regional offices were set up across Canada, with regional administrators to supervise the distribution of coal in the region. I am glad to say that some increase in production, the effects of the conservation programme, plus the great blessing of a mild winter, have dissipated our fears. However, we must not forget that we cannot count on an equally mild winter in the heating season of 1944-45.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Another winter coming!


Clarence Decatur Howe: The coal which is mined today, and in the next few months, will be marketed for next winter's supply. If we are to meet all of our requirements, industrial and domestic, we must continue a policy of strict conservation, and we must raise the level of production in those areas where production is now falling behind the demand,
Wood Fuel: Our annual consumption of wood fuel is 10 million cords, and about 90 per cent of this is produced by the farmer. The farmer also accounts for the consumption of about 60 per cent of our wood fuel cut. The balance of the cut is marketed in our cities and towns. Because of the severity of the winter 1942-43, stocks in hand fell off to an alarming degree. Wood Fuel Control was established to stimulate production, and to supervise the distribution of wood, in order that there might be no hardship during the present winter. The policy of subsidies, which was initiated last spring and extended through the winter months, did much to improve production. In addition to the production subsidy, transportation subsidies have also been paid, in order to facilitate the movement of wood to probable distressed areas. The wood fuel controller also initiated a number of special cutting projects, as a means of building up Government-owned banks of wood fuel, which could be held in reserve and shipped to any areas where distress was imminent. Studies of the consumption of wood fuel made it possible to determine the areas of high consumption. In these areas a special effort was

made to have the cities and smaller municipalities undertake their own wood cutting, wood storing and wood distribution programmes. I am glad to report that most of the municipalities responded in splendid fashion to this proposal. These various measures, coupled with the extremely mild winter, have enabled us to meet all wood fuel requirements. We are hopeful that the fine weather we have had this winter will bring about a return to normal production on the farms. However, to ensure the building up of adequate stocks for the next heating season, the policy of paying production and transportation subsidies will continue in effect until June 1st. At that time we will review the policy in the light of the then existing supply of fuel wood.


Richard Burpee Hanson: If the
minister will permit me, will he have compiled and laid on the table or produced in some form a statement showing the amounts paid in subsidies for wood fuel, and to whom they were paid? I think this information ought to be given to the public, because the feeling is that the wrong people got the subsidies-the middle man, not the producer.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not think it is the
practice to table in the house payments to individuals.


Richard Burpee Hanson: They should be in the auditor general's report.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Perhaps. In any case I think the amount of the subsidies has been tabled in the house. However I shall be very glad to produce the information when the time comes. The intention was to pay the subsidy to dealers, and payments have been made to dealers.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I thought it was to producers.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The producer gets it through the dealer. The purpose is to allow the dealer to finance and to function.


Richard Burpee Hanson: But the producer does not get it under this scheme.


Clarence Decatur Howe: In any case the scheme produced the wood, and we were not getting it until we put the dealers in business.
Timber.-Our annual peace-time production of lumber is slightly below 4 billion board feet, of which we export 2 billion, 2 hundred million board feet, Our home requirements, plus very high commitments to the United Kingdom and the' U.SA,, now outstrip the available supply. Despite very severe labour shortages, we were able, in 1943, to 'reach a production of 4 billion, 640 million board feet.

War Appropriation-Supplies
We did this largely because of the cooperation of national selective service in making available larger numbers of men for employment in bush operations
Our 1943 cut was distributed as follows:
In Canada for direct war use.. 1,400 million ft.
For indirect war use and for essential civilian use, including railways, agriculture, housing and industry	 1,340 million ft.
Shipped to Britain for war use. 1 billion ft.
Shipped to United States for
war use	 800 million ft.
Shipped to British empire countries other than Britain for direct war use	 100 million ft.
Total	 4,840 million ft.
I might point out that shipments to the United,Kingdom and to the United States are exclusively for war uses. This war demand, added to the requirements of the armed services in Canada, has created a scarcity of dry lumber for the civilian user.
In 1944, overseas requirements for Britain and other combat areas will increase greatly. Requirements of the United States for war purposes will also continue at a high level. We anticipate some falling off in war requirements in Canada, due to the completion of a major part of the military construction programme. So far as we can estimate at this time, our total production for 1944 will be 4 billion 350 million board feet. Of this amount we will export 1 billion 980 million board feet, leaving for consumption in Canada 2 billion 370 million board feet. The larger supply which will be available for use in Canada will permit considerable easing of the restrictions in the use of lumber.
There are two crown companies operating in conjunction with timber control:	Aero
Timber Products Limited and Veneer Log Supply Limited. Aero Timber Products Limited is responsible for procuring supplies of Sitka spruce for the manufacture of aircraft in Canada and in the United Kingdom. Through extensive logging operations undertaken on the Pacific Coast, the company has been able to supplement the supply produced by private operators. Because of its very successful programme, we have been able to keep abreast of aircraft spruce requirements. Veneer Log Supply Limited is responsible for procuring supplies of logs for the manufacture of plywood and veneers for aircraft and other war uses. The company has been able to meet its supply quotas and to satisfy all requirements of Canadian mills and the British Ministry of Supply. All logs of a quality suitable for the manufacture of aircraft plywood
must be sold to Veneer Log Supply. Logs of lower grades, which are used in the manufacture of commercial plywoods, may be disposed of through the normal business channels.
Power. Due to the expansion of our Canadian power resources and the various conservation measures which have been initiated by the power controller, Canada passed through the peak of all power demands at the turn of the year without serious shortage or inconvenience. However, the situation is still extremely tight, and we can look for no immediate relaxation of the various control orders which have been brought into effect to conserve power. Shortages of gas have occurred in western Ontario, but the new gas plant in Hamilton is now in complete operation, and it is hoped that the essential needs of this area can be met.
Machine Tools. This was one of our most important controls in the early stages of the production programme. To date, Citadel Merchandising Company Limited, the crown company which operates under the Machine Tools Controller, has procured and placed in war plants some 45,000 machine tools. The control still has a vital part to play in the production programme, but the nature of its work has changed considerably. To-day the problem is chiefly to allocate existing machine tool capacity in accordance with changing production needs. A special organization known as the Machine Tool War Service Committee has been set up to act as a clearing agency in the reallocation of tools.
A large number of machine tools which have . been procured by the machine tools controller have remained in the ownership of the crown. The controller has maintained a complete inventory of these tools, with a full catalogue of sizes, types and working condition. In this way, the machine tools controller has a com plete day-to-day record of all government owned tools.
Cutting Tools and Gauges Limited, the crown company which was set up to procure gauges and to salvage and recondition cutting tools, has had a very successful year. The company has met all requirements for gauges and cutting tools.
Metals Control. As the house is aware, Canada is the main source of supply for the United Nations for many non-ferrous metals. We supply practically all of the nickel for the United Nations and 40 per cent of the aluminum requirements. As an indication of the expansion of production that has taken place since war began, I will place on Hansard a table showing the production figures of the
War Appropriation-Supplies

leading items in the non-ferrous metal group, using for purposes of comparison production in 1939 and in 1943:
	1939	1943
	Tons	Tons
Aluminum ....		492,000
Refined copper		 231,000	254,000
Lead			224,000
Nickel 			102,000
Zinc 			300,000
I would point	out that this expansion has	
occprred in the face of very severe labour shortages, which have affected base metal mining operations perhaps more than any other of the heavy industries. The policy of promoting intensive exploration programmes for new deposits has brought rich rewards.
Our position with respect to certain of these metals is much better than at this time last year. Due to expanded production in Canada, we are now in fairly easy supply of aluminum, molybdenum, magnesium, tungsten, zinc, chrome, lead and copper. As a result, we have been able to release some quantity of these metals for civilian manufacture. In allocating supplies of non-ferrous metals for civilian use, the Wartime Industries Control Board works in cooperation with the Wartime Prices and Trade Board, which has jurisdiction in the field of civilian supply. The falling-off in the requirements of certain non-ferrous metals will result in the closing down of certain mining operations initiated by the Metals Controller. There remain only two or three metals, of which the chief is tin, for which the demand still exceeds the supply. Generally speaking, the stock position is such that we can meet that portion of the united nations' requirements of base metals for which Canada is committed. We will continue to build up stock piles as a protection against urgent demands which cannot now be estimated.
Wartime Metals Corporation, a crown company, which was established to administer the development of certain mining operations, has had a successful year. The company is now supervising the operation of eight projects, two for the Metals Controller and six for the Metals Reserve Board of the United States. Certain of the operations under the direction of the company will be closed down, due to the falling-off in requirements. The government-owned magnesium plant at Haley's Corners, Ontario, is also operated under the supervision of Wartime Metals Corporation. The plant now has a daily output of thirteen tons. There has been a gradual reduction in the cost of production each month since the plant went info operation.

Oil. I have recently made a statement with regard to gasoline and oil products. Our position continues to be serious. Improvement in the transportation of crude has been more than offset by the ever-increasing demands for gasoline and oil products in the combat areas. As the tempo of the offensive mounts, the demand for aviation gasoline and other oil products also increases. This means that we cannot hope for any relaxation in the present conservation programme. As already announced, the rationing plan for the motorist will continue without important change. While we are unable to obtain as large quantities of the light grades of crude as formerly, we have been able to increase our imports of the heavy grades. Because of this, we have a surplus of heavy fuel oils and asphalt. This will permit considerable relaxation in the use of heavy fuel oils, and asphalt is now on the free list. It should be noted thsit light fuel oil, used for domestic heating, is in the same position as gasoline, in very short supply.
There was some misunderstanding after the statement I made a month ago. Many householders thought I was indicating a better situation for light fuel oil. That is not the case. Light fuel oil, of course, is in the same class as gasoline, because it can be made into gasoline by a different process of refining; so that we must have the same conservation programme in the homes for fuel oil as we have in the motor cars for gasoline.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Is the difference in specific gravity?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Agar Rodney Adamson: It is purely a matter of specific gravity of the oil?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Pretty well, yes.
During the past year, a new Canadian refinery, and a new alkylate plant, came into production. This new production will increase substantially the supply of aviation gasoline for the use of the British Commonwealth Air Training plan. Nevertheless, we are still in very short supply of aviation gasoline.
In May, 1943, Wartime Oils Limited, a crown company, was established to develop submarginal areas in the Alberta oil fields. Twelve wells have been financed to date. Of these, six have been completed and are now producing oil. We expect the balance of the wells to be in production by the end of June.
I had hoped to be able to give final reports on the results of the investigation of the production of oil from bituminous sands in northern Alberta. This work is being carried out under the direction of the Department of Mines and Resources. There is no technical

War Appropriation-Supplies
data available as yet, which would warrant any forecast as to what can be expected from this development in the way of oil production.
I may say that, as requested by the hon. member for Danforth (Mr. Harris), I shall give a statement later as to the position at this time in connection with Abasand.
Rubber.-I have explained to the house in previous reports that Canada has had to depend for her supplies of raw rubber on quotas which are allocated from the united nations' stock pile. This stock pile has been a dwindling asset, and our problem has been to bring in production of synthetic rubber in time to avoid a shortage, which would have crippled our production programme. We have reached the point where I am able to say that we have won the race. The government-owned plant at Sarnia, which is administered by the Polymer Corporation, a crown company, is now in production. The estimated annual output of the plant, operating at full capacity, will be 34,000 long tons of buna-S and 4,000 long tons of butyl. The plant is a self-contained unit, producing butyl rubber, and styrene and butadiene, which are combined to produce buna-S rubber. The styrene plant came into production last July, the butadiene plant in February of this year. The production of buna-S rubber began at half capacity last September, with the use of styrene produced at the plant, and butadiene imported from the United States. Now that the butadiene unit is in production, imports from the United States will terminate. Production of buna-S is currently at the rate of 2500 tons per month, and butyl rubber at 150 tons per month. Production of buna-S should reach full capacity by May, and production of butyl by July. It is worth noting that the Polymer plant has no counterpart anywhere. Some plants produce one or more ingredients of synthetic, others produce finished synthetic. The Polymer plant produces all of the ingredients of synthetic rubber and manufactures two finished synthetics.
The production of synthetic rubber on this continent in commercial quantities is a new venture. The process which has been used by Polymer is similar to that adopted in the synthetic rubber programme in the United States. I may tell the house that Polymer has come into production in as short a space of time as any of the synthetic rubber projects with which it can be compared. With the Polymer plant in full production, we will be able to meet war and strictly essential requirements. We will not be able to give any great relief to the ordinary civilian user. It is
expected that 900,000 tires will be manufactured from synthetic rubber in 1944. A large part of these will go on military vehicles. The balance will be distributed to the public in accordance with the regulations of the tire rationing plan.
. A word about the quality of these tires. It is not possible yet to say that a synthetic tire matches the quality of a raw rubber tire. This department is conducting very extensive tests of synthetic tires, in conjunction with the United States army. The data obtained from these tests will, we hope, help to improve the quality of synthetic tires. So far as we can now estimate, the synthetic tire is about 80 per cent as efficient as a raw rubber tire. It is still necessary to use a certain proportion of natural rubber in the fabrication of tires for heavy duty and high speed operation.
We are now in a very easy position on rubber scrap. There are very large stock piles in Canada and in the United States.
The Fairmont Company, a crown company, continues to be the government agency for the purchase, sale and stock-piling of natural and synthetic rubber. The company works in close conjunction with the rubber controller and with the Polymer Corporation.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Do I understand the
minister to say that Polymer is a completely integrated organization?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Agar Rodney Adamson: And the only one of its kind?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, that is true.
Supplies Control. The supplies of cork are now adequate, and restrictions respecting its use have been lifted except for the manufacture of linoleum, where shortage of other materials is the real limiting factor. While increased supplies of kapok have been forthcoming from India, our existing stocks must still be held exclusively for use in life-saving equipment of all types.
While the demand from Canadian war industry for nylon has declined, the restrictions on this fibre are still in effect, as our output is required overseas.
We have adequate supplies of the hard fibre for the manufacture of rope, but demands for the fishing industry are in excess of present productive capacity. Although the supply situation has improved somewhat, the demands from our ever-growing navy, and our fishermen, do not indicate any immediate relaxation of the controls affecting manila, sisal and henequen fibres.

War Appropriation-Supplies
As recently announced!, this control has been transferred to the Wartime Prices and Trade Board, since the problems with which it is concerned now have to do with civilian supply.
Steel. Our production of steel for 1943, amounting to 2 million 52S thousand tons, approximately doubled our production in 1939. Our total consumption in 1943 was 3 million 620 thousand tons, which means that we had to import from the United States, roughly, 1 million 92 thousand tons, or one-third of our requirements. During most of 1943, the steel position continued to be tight. We were able to meet war and essential needs only by the strictest conservation. The situation has changed very materially in recent months. Changes in the production programme, with the shift to lighter items, and the completion of the industrial expansion incidental to the war programme have been the principal factors. Therefore, it has been possible to lift some of the steel, restrictions, and seven of the control orders which were in effect in 1941, 1942 and 1943 have been lifted. Certain types of steel continue to be in short supply, mainly plates, sheets and strips. These will be subject to control until such time as the supply position improves. Sheets are extremely tight, both in Canada and in the United States, and I am unable to offer any hope that an increased supply will be available for the manufacture of roofing.
Motor Vehicle Control. This control was established to distribute the very small supply of trucks and' passenger automobiles which are available for civilian use, and to maintain the necessary flow of parts for the servicing of trucks andi passenger automobiles. We have not manufactured any passenger automobiles in Canada since April 1942. At that time, a number of passenger automobiles were placed in a government bank. These are allowed to be sold only under the regulations of the Motor Vehicle Controller, and in cases of the higest essentiality. So long as the demand for military vehicles and parts continues at its present level, there is no prospect of our being able to manufacture passenger automobiles.
Studies recently compiled for allied nations show a severe world shortage of trucks for military and civil needs during 1944. Because it is necessary that we maintain essential trucking services, we have manufactured each year a small quota of trucks. While we hope to increase the number that will be manufactured in 1944, we cannot begin to, make available sufficient trucks to meet the normal

demands. For this reason, a strict control of distribution must be maintained. We are dependent on the United States for our supply of heavy-duty trucks, an agreed quota of imports being fixed in co-operation with the War Production Board of the United States. Here again the number that can be obtained is considerably below the demand.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Will the minister say what the quota will be, or did he give the number?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Does the hon. member mean the total of domestic trucks? I shall be glad to give the figures later.
Chemicals.-Changes in war programmes have permitted some relaxation of controls in this field. Glycerine, formerly in very short supply, is now available for certain commercial uses. We are also now able to release coal tar for civilian purposes.


Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: I
understood that glycerine was released for anti-freeze purposes, but from what I can make out among the garage men it was released for only a day or so and taken off the market again.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I shall be glad to look that up. Possibly another shortage developed and it was taken off. I know the control was taken off for a time.
Canada is an important source of supply of sulphuric acid and ethyl alcohol, for the United States. Our distilling capacity is now devoted entirely to the production of ethyl alcohol. Approximately one-half of our production is consumed in Canada. The balance is exported to the United States. Soda ash, a most important war chemical, is in very short supply, and we are dependent on importations from the United Kingdom and from the United States. In this control, as in others, supplies for civilian use will be released as circumstances permit.
Construction. The purpose of Construction Control is to conserve strategic materials, such as steel, lumber and other builders' supplies, by restricting non-essential building projects. In the early years of the war, the demands of military construction projects and of war industry for steel, lumber and other builders' supplies was very great. That demand has fallen off to a considerable extent, and is reflected in the easing of Construction Control regulations, particularly as they affect the construction of private dwelling houses. There has been some increase in the amount of money that can be expended on new building or repairs without a permit from the Controller of

War Appropriation-Supplies
Construction. The issuance of licences is still dependent to some extent on the labour situation in the area in which the building is located. The supply position has not yet improved sufficiently to permit the issuance of permits for public buildings, churches, places of amusement, etc., unless the circumstances are very exceptional. It is estimated that as of the 1st of February, 1944, there is a backlog of construction projects of 300 million dollars.
Transit control. Our urban transit facilities continue to carry a very heavy burden. So far as we can estimate, transit systems are now carrying twice as many passengers as in 1938. I do not think it is any exaggeration to say that many of these systems would have bogged down had we not established transit control.
Staggered hours arrangements have provided considerable relief. Under the Wartime Industrial Transit Plan, 54,000 private automobiles are now mobilized to transport war workers to and from their vtork. In addition to these measures, which were designed to relieve overburdening of transit facilities, we have made further curtailments of certain interurban bus services. Bus equipment is in very short supply, and these curtailments have enabled us to transfer buses to more essential routes. This control is tied in closely with rubber and gasoline conservation plans. The object of the rigid control of taxicabs, which is now being maintained, is to assist in the conservation of these very vital supplies. There has been a considerable reduction in the number of taxicabs in service without, I think, any undue inconvenience to, the public.
Priorities. Our priorities system continues to operate most satisfactorily. As the priorities office works in intimate association with the various production divisions, we have not found it necessary to institute a formal priorities procedure for deliveries of equipment and components produced in Canada. We thus have been able to arrange deliveries without recourse to an elaborate procedure, with its inevitable confusion and delay.
As we are dependent on the United States for much of our equipment, and many of our components, the Priorities Office has had to maintain a close working arrangement with the priorities division of the War Production Board of the United States. In the case of importations of equipment and components from the United States, we have conformed to the priority procedure laid down by the priorities division of the War Production Board. This will explain why a manufacturer, jobber or dealer who is importing equipment or
components from the United States must submit certain application forms to the Canadian priorities office. These applications are screened in the Canadian priorities office, but the final decision on the priority rests with the Priorities Division of the War Production Board.
Similarly, with importations from the United Kingdom, we have worked out an arrangement with the British Board of Trade whereby imports are kept at the minimum dictated by necessity. This has helped to conserve vital shipping space.
Before leaving the subject of controllers, I would point out that the duty of each controller has been to organize his industry for maximum production and to arrange distribution of his product in such a way that essential war needs can be met in full and the surplus distributed fairly among civilian users. Throughout a period of world scarcity of products essential to war production, Canadian production has never been seriously delayed for lack of raw materials. Under the direction of our controllers, our basic industries have been expanded greatly, always in time to meet the anticipated demand. Even materials which must be imported into Canada have been kept in supply. To me, the distribution of materials brought about by our controllers has been a miracle; certainly our record in that respect has not been equalled in any allied country. Now that the supply situation is easing, I am glad to pay this tribute to the work of our controllers, throughout a period of acute world scarcity.
War production in Canada has reached its peak, but the work of my Department has not lessened on that account. The termination of contracts, as dictated by the strategy of the war, is no easy task. Machinery for termination has been provided, which will, I believe, permit prompt conversion by the manufacturer of peacetime production, while fully protecting the government's interest in the cancelled contract.
There is also the problem of disposing of surplus materials, and surplus and obsolete equipment, purchased by the government for war purposes. A crown company, War Assets Corporation Limited, has been formed to deal with this problem, and parliament will be asked to consider legislation bearing on this problem.
Canada's great volume of war production has been made possible by full-out cooperation with the government, on the part of private industry, the producer, and the worker. My Department has called on each for a great effort, directed toward the winning of the war, and each has responded in full measure.
War Appropriation-Supplies

This war is responsible for the destruction of life and property on an unprecedented scale, but we in Canada will receive some compensation through enlargements of our productive capacity which can later be directed into peacetime production. Reconversion of industry must wait until the demands of war are satisfied, but active steps are being taken to prepare for rapid reconversion when the time comes. Whether that time will be near, or distant, must depend on the progress of the war, but until the time comes, there must be neither slackening off in war production, nor diversion of producti-ve capacity away from war requirements. Let us concentrate on winning the war, while looking forward with confidence in our ability to meet the problems of conversion, when our paramount job is behind us.	.


Mr. HARRIS (Danforth):: The committee will understand that of necessity my observations will be of a general character, inasmuch as we have not the information that the minister was to give us, and shall not have it until such time as it is produced.
In the 'criticism I have to offer I shall try to be as constructive as possible. I am not anxious to get the minister into one of those moods into which he slips so easily and so often. My first criticism is in regard to the presentation of the estimates on February 11. Why can the department not furnish us with a break-down as other departments have done? If the advance information would be of comfort to the enemy, then I could understand it; but I cannot see why on that account the minister should be restrained from producing a proper break-down of the appropriation so that we should know of any radical changes that were made in certain of the many activities he found it necessary to review in his annual statement. We are given two lines in the estimates of the Depatment of Munitions and Supply, and page after page in all the other departments.
My next criticism is this. While it may be quite true that the function of the Department of Munitions and Supply is to purchase on order what is requisitioned by other branches of the services, not only in Canada but abroad, now that we are in the fifth year of the war does the committee really think that is sufficient at this stage? Do you really think, Mr. Chairman, that we are taking a sufficiently long-range view in having this department responsible for all munitions and supply, construction and so on, -without some definite planning for the future? I realize at once that the task of the minister is of great magnitude; but to my mind it is not planning for the future with respect to -many branches 
of the services, some of which I shall recite in a few moments. In the meantime the general criticism I have to make is that the minister's statement seems to resolve itself into an historical review of what has been done. We have that review in the press from day to day, from week to week, and from month to month; we have it in the publications of the wartime information board and in other sources of information. They tell us of the increase in production here and there when it is all gathered together. It should not be necessary for the minister to occupy the time of the committee in giving us another historical review of what is happening.
The assets held by the crown are now very large. With the holding of the assets there comes the responsibility of keeping them at work, particularly the capital assets. If there is not sufficient work for those plants in supplying munitions, then some department of government should be responsible for seeing to it that the capital expenditure is kept operating on peace-time needs, if not on wartime needs. It may be said that it is quite easy to shut down a few plants and transfer the employees, but you cannot transfer the fixed assets. Someone should be giving consideration to that particular part of our programme. The war targets have been attained, and in attaining them, considerable programme revision has been found necessary. That is inevitable. But in the revision which is necessary on account of change in types and kinds of war machines, the shutting-down of plants is something which should be given more consideration.
Single-purpose plants have been referred to. I can realize the difficulty of transforming them into something which is necessary on a larger scale. The probability is that the single-purpose plants are small and perhaps located in small communities where labour conditions are such that there is not sufficient labour to justify any other course. Yet there is a crying need in Canada to-day for peacetime industries in small communities where industries are now working partly on war production. These industries are necessary to the economic life of Canada. They are necessary to keep the population in the small towns. Small single-purpose plants should be kept in operation so that the small centres across Canada will not be disorganized. Through the enthusiasm- and encouragement of the munitions industry in days gone by, many of these small industries have become established. They are no longer necessary. They find that they will have to leave the 'town, and when peace is declared we are apt to have the spectacle of ghost towns springing up

War Appropriation-Supplies
all across Canada. Up to a short time ago there were thriving munitions industries in those towns. Let us take time by the forelock. Let some department of government take the responsibility of planning now with regard to the single-purpose plants referred to by the minister, and keep them in some kind of production.
It is not enough to cooperate with national selective service and move the population from point to point. Consideration must be given to the plants themselves. The increase of fifty per cent in aircraft production is something which I think ought to arouse the Canadian people who are now air-minded, and I would say that it is in the interests of Canada. The export production that we have had-"L for lanky", I think they call it over the radio- all helps, it is quite true, to build up the morale of the Canadian people. Congratulations were extended to the minister on this production, and they were quite in order, but let us have all sides of the picture as we go along. I did not hear very much said about the casualties in Ortona being taken to hospital in jeeps because no ambulances were available. It is a great tribute to the Canadian people that our trucks and ambulances can get through the sands of Africa, but there are other places where matters could be improved considerably. It is very nice to hear the minister tell us of these tributes that have been paid to us, but I should like him to present something more 'forward looking.
In the matter of mechanical transport we learn that our production has been 593,000 units, but now we find that this department has also gone into the business of supplying freight cars and engines for domestic use. If that is just a case of helping out because the Department of Munitions and Supply has under its control the equipment and tools necessary to make these things, well and good, but let that production go back into its natural channels, and let those who are able to build that equipment do so, as soon as possible.
Then I understand that the production of explosives has been reduced to some extent, and that one plant has been shut down. I wonder why that should be the case. I am trying to follow the minister's remarks seri-iatim, but he mentioned explosives in the early part of his remarks and dealt with chemicals later on, while the hon. member for Peterborough West raised the question of glycerine. I wonder why within the last month the glycerine market should have slumped. I wonder why there should be no sale for crude glycerine in Canada to-day. I congratulate the government upon holding the ceiling price of glycerine at 12i cents a pound, in contrast with the situation in the last war when, because of
world conditions, it soared to three or four times that price. The market price now, however, is down to around nine cents, with no sales. I think the parliamentary assistant should give the committee the story of that commodity, which is a natural product of Canada, because I am sure the present price will have far-reaching effects in connection with the raw material which goes to make up that product. In this country, which has very few plants able to handle crude glycerine, I wonder if there is not something going on between those plants, just to hold down the market, or if there is some other reason. I think in fairness to Canada the minister or his parliamentary assistant should give a frank statement as to the reserve supply of this commodity.
We were told that gun production has seen some conversion carried out, but we have no details. Probably the minister has not time in one statement to go into everything, but we are interested in details. I am sure Canada would be greatly interested to learn that we are working on orders for China, and also that there is another type of naval gun coming. Similarly in connection with small arms we have a modified version of the Bren gun. The minister mentioned that two cordite plants had been closed and that the plant at Nobel had been discontinued, so that the remarks I made previously in that regard are borne out by this part of the minister's statement. Tribute was paid to our chemists, chemical engineers and engineers. I join in that tribute modestly, perhaps, because I happen to be one of them, though I do not work at that profession, which has been long neglected. It is not recognized as a profession as we understand them, but I should like to take advantage of this occasion to say that it should be so recognized. No other country in the world has the opportunity Canada has for the development of chemical and engineering research, owing to the natural resources with which this dominion is blessed; and nothing that can be done to raise the standard of that profession should be left undone. Anything that will tend to increase the research carried on in Canada will work to the benefit of this country. The minister mentioned that he had fifty units working on explosives of one kind and another. It is hardly enough to say just that. How many of these units are operating; how many are closed down, and where are they located? Has the manufacturing industry of Canada been advised through the proper channels that it is not likely some of these institutions will commence operations again? Has any survey been made to ascertain what might be done with the units that are closed down?
War Appropriation-Supplies

I come now to the portion of the minister's remarks dealing with construction, including that in connection with air training schools and barracks. If I heard the minister aright, $100,000,000 is to be devoted to this type of construction during the coming year. I wonder whether we are looking forward to what will happen when the war is over, and whether we we are taking any care to see that these undertakings, which represent a tremendous investment, are located near centres where they will be of some use after the war. I think too many heavy expenditures have been made on construction, and fairly good construction at that, in remote parts of Canada when it was not absolutely necessary to have these buildt-ings so far removed from centres of population. This country is now filled with the idea that we are to raise a new brand of youth, that we are to have youth training centres, and that many of these buildings will be used for cadet training centres and1 physical culture centres of one kind or another. Many of these buildings would come in very handy and be very useful in connection with the housing and training of our youth when peace returns. We cannot stop this youth movement; they are going to demand the use of these facilities, and in the expenditures made from now on consideration should be given to these factors when deciding where these buildings should be located. A good many of us are of the opinion that this war will end in tw'o or three years, if not before, and that then we shall have a great surge of boys returning, with a great demand1 for facilities of this kind.
I am thinking of one instance which comes forcefully to mind at the moment, and perhaps I might pass it on to the minister. We have about eight sea cadet corps training in the basements and gymnasiums of schools in the city of Toronto. There are no facilities for what they call a deck, on which these boys can train as sea cadets. When the war is over we shall still be training sea cadets, not only in Ontario but in. other parts of Canada. In Malvern collegiate institute we are training air cadets. There are no proper facilities at that school for the training of these boys. When the war is over we shall still be training air cadets. If we had some centre that could be used for that particular purpose we would avoid interfering with the school curriculum and would build up a centre of training to which the youth, of this country might go. Pupils do not like to go back to school after hours; if they do, when they are there they do not feel that they have a home of their own. So that in the construction programme in all parts of Canada I hope consideration will be given to having these buildings erected in or near centres of population.

For the first time I realized more of what the Department of Munitions and Supply was doing when I found that it was asked to provide, I presume for war and other plants, social, educational and health schemes, and I think the minister said baby clinics and other things that might come under a health programme. My general criticism of a programme of this kind is based on the fact that we have permanent health programmes, carried on in permanent structures in the municipalities. We have permanent programmes and permanent construction fostered by the provinces. We have another set of temporary structures or temporary services for these plants. Some department of government should be charged with the responsibility of synchronizing these particular efforts. A great difficulty with our form of government is that Jones does not know what Smith is doing. I venture the opinion that in the carrying out of the social and health and educational schemes recited by the minister there is very little coordination or coalescence between the present set-up and the different organizations set up in the provinces to render these services.
The same thing can be said about the handling of medical stores. In Ottawa there is a medical stores branch for the army and I understand they indent upon Munitions and Supply. The Minister of Pensions and National Health has a very good centre for the dispensing of standard medicines, a centre which has been built up over the last twenty years, a centre which is functioning very well. The navy, the senior service, has its own orders of the day with regard to these supplies, but I cannot say whether they indent upon Munitions and Supply. However, they do their own distributing in their own way. The air force has another system set up. The result is that there are four or .five systems with four or five sets of personnel. The army, the air force and the navy have men mixing up pharmaceuticals of one* kind or another and receiving army, air force or navy pay. The Department of Pensions and National Health have a civilian staff doing the same thing and receiving civilian pay. The difference between the rates of pay is such that proper cooperation in this work is not obtained. To a large extent the men charged with the responsibility of doing this work in the ariny, the navy or the air force are lieutenants or other commissioned officers who have a smattering of the subject, perhaps learned in a back-country drugstore. They are not trained in the manufacturing of pharmaceuticals, with the result that there is not the

War Appropriation-Supplies
efficiency there would be if a proper plan were adopted and there were more coordination of these efforts.
There is a point I should like to make in connection with the health centre programme being sponsored by the minister's department. Take Kingston, for instance, where I understand a centre is located. I think it will be found that the government centre is competing with other like establishments for the necessary labour. I notice the parliamentary assistant is making a note. If Kingston is not the right place, then these remarks will apply to other places. As I say, I believe it will be found that the government centre is competing with other organizations for the personnel to carry on electro-therapy work and other work needed in the centre.
I come now to the matter of controls. The minister says that there are seventeen controllers. That may be right, but there must be about 1,700 deputy controllers. According to the correspondence I have had the privilege of looking over, there seems to be a different signature on every letter. I note with interest the statement of the minister that some of these controls are not now necessary. These controllers should be released as quickly as possible, because I think it will be found that while perhaps they have not irritated industry in general, they have made it quite difficult for industry to carry on. Now that inventories are piling up in Munitions and Supply, more and more consideration should be given to relaxing these controls. I do not want to take the responsibility for this, should there be a substantial relaxing of these controls and then by some misadventure election time comes along and this be taken as another plank in the platform of my hon. friends who sit opposite. That plank is already in the platform of the party it is my pleasure to support.
We are still importing tremendous quantities of coal. The minister stated that providence was kind to us this year but conditions may be serious next year. We must take the long-range view of this and build up a reserve stock of fuel for next year. Reference has been made to the tendency of industry to centralize itself. Some long-range scheme should be adopted, whereby industry could be transferred closer to the supply of coal, particularly to points in western Canada. As the hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol) has said at different times, more industries should be established where coal is available. Not only would that help in the distribution of fuel, but the effect upon the labour supply would bo considerable. This year industry in
Winnipeg was able to get labour. This year industry in Toronto was not able to get labour. We all know that labour is available during the winter months in western Canada and, as I say, plans should be made to transfer as much industry as possible to this part of Canada.
The minister referred to anthracite coal and substitutes for anthracite coal. Pocahontas coal is the principal substitute for anthracite coal. It has done a good1 job in this last winter which has been quite mild, but what has happened is that fifty-seven varieties of Pocahontas coal are being offered to the consumers. The quality depends upon the amount of other grades, mostly lower, of coal that are mixed in.
I come now to the question of lumber. Four or five billion board feet have been produced and the exports have amounted to one billion board feet. Referring particularly to planks and boards, I wonder if the crown companies need to exercise as much control? Do they need to go into this business as intensely as they are doing? I do not know and I ask the minister to have his parliamentary assistant answer this question: Can we not do away with much of the control exercised over this particular industry and let it carry on naturally?
I should like to say a word about plywoods and veneers. As time goes on there will be a tremendous increase in the use of these woods in all parts of the world. I ask whatever minister has the responsibility in this matter to give a close study to the possible development of plywoods and veneers. These woods have made tremendous strides during the war and I am sure they will make greater strides after the war is over. They are replacing steel and aluminum and many other lighter metals in a great many ways.
I come now to the base metals. Perhaps we have heard enough about aluminum and we have a fairly good idea about the amount of production. On the whole Canada is doing a good job in producing aluminum. Whether or not the structure which makes it possible for the plant to operate is properly organized is a question upon which I am not going to touch. But I wonder why we are not producing more magnesium. This metal is lighter than aluminum. In many ways it is better than aluminum, but in other ways it has certain handicaps to overcome. I ask the minister or the parliamentary assistant to give the committee a frank statement on the magnesium situation. Why are we producing only thirteen tons a day? While the hon member is making a note, perhaps he will permit me to make another comment. Is

War Appropriation-Supplies
the reason for this small production of magnesium the fact that we have such a tremendous productive capacity of aluminum? Is it that we do not want to interfere in any way with the sale of aluminum or with the position of this metal after the war? My comments are based on general observations.
At Thetford Mines, asbestos mines, I imagine I would be safe in saying that there are lying at the pit-head and not being used thousands of tons of semi-dressed magnesium ores, bereft of their mica and asbestos and broken into sizes which could readily be handled by steam shovel or otherwise, with perhaps one-third of the 'work of dressing already done on them. This is not being used and there is no particular development of any consequence apart from the thirteen tons a day which the minister mentioned. I should like to have a statement from the minister, if it is within the ambit of his department, as to why we are not using more magnesium and why more development work is not being done on this natural resource which we have in our country in such abundance.
As to molybdenum, copper and the other base metals, my understanding is that we have a tremendous backlog of copper and I think that should be maintained.


Clarence Decatur Howe: While copper is in an easy position, there is no great stock-pile.


Joseph Henry Harris: There is no great stock-pile, the minister says. Then now is the time to get a stock-pile, because we are having some difficulty in holding the price of copper in world markets. If that is the case, it must be in production at a substantial profit, and certainly we should have on hand a fair supply of this essential material.
We are all disappointed that over the last twenty years there has been no definite or positive development of the tar sands, and I hope the hon. member for Davenport will pursue his quest with the department with regard to this particular development.
The interesting statement given by the minister on the rubber situation will be pleasing to the Canadian people. I should like to know whether the men who are responsible for that development, the engineers, chemists and what-not, are being given proper recognition. It is interesting to know that our production of steel in Canada has progressed in the proportions it has during the last decade. We are still importing one-third of our requirements. That strikes me as a very small figure, because I was of the opinion that we were importing more. I should like the minister to put on record the figures of 
our imports of steel. At the same time I wish to emphasize this warning to those hon. members who have the idea that the tape on the border between the United States and Canada is going to be rolled up-the tape being the duties at present in being and not now being applied-what will happen to the steel industry when the war is over if their policy is followed right through? How long should we be in the position of importing only one-third of our requirements and producing the other two-thirds? That is something which should give Canada serious concern, when we think of all the employees who are now engaged in the manufacture of steel in this country. I should like the minister or his parliamentary assistant to put on the record the number of workers now engaged in the steel industry in Canada.
Then I come to trucks. We are not producing them. The transit controller has put a control on trucks so that they will not be worn out too fast. As long as trucks are needed in the European theatre of war, let us do without them and devote our production of trucks to war purposes. But if the transit controller, working in harmony with other branches of the Department of Munitions and Supply, finds it necessary to restrict the use of trucks in this country, let me just bring to the attention of hon. members one little problem in that connection. The trucking hours have been staggered. Those of us who are operating trucks will put up with any inconvenience that may be necessary because there is a war on; but when the controller goes farther and passes regulations that trucks shall not operate on a certain day of the week, shall be off the highway one day in five-and with Saturday afternoon off, that brings the number of days operations to four -I want to say that the industry finds great difficulty in providing other work for the truck drivers to do on the day when they cannot take out their machines. Someone might say, put them in some other line of production. But truck drivers get a premium of from five to six or ten cents an hour over the average factory labourer. Moreover, the truck driver is out in the weather four days in the week, and he does not like going into the shop on the fifth day and then having to go back out into the weather the next day. His constitution will not stand it. When he does go into the shop he will not accept the pay which the ordinary labourer is drawing, and the ordinary labourer -and the truck driver may not be as efficient because he is working inside only one day a week-is not satisfied to work alongside him for from five to ten cents an hour less.

War Appropriation-Supplies


Clarence Decatur Howe: The official who controls
trucking is not in the Department of Munitions and Supply, but in the wartime prices and trade board.


Joseph Henry Harris: But the minister mentioned the transit controller and staggered hours.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The transit controller has to do with transporting people in buses and street-cars.


Joseph Henry Harris: That is on the record anyway, and he that hath charge and responsibility therefor, let him note and pay heed to that I have said.
In the main my criticism is that there is no department of government that is forwardlooking with regard to this tremendous industrial asset which we have found it necessary to build up to produce munitions of war, not only with regard to the asset in its capital sense but with regard to the future vocations for men and women engaged in this industry across the country. What are you going to do with them when hostilities cease? What are you going to do now with the people engaged in those portions of the industry which are closing down, with, consequent moving from place to place? What are you going to do with the municipalities who find that these war industries have left them? That is something which is the responsibility of this house and something to which considerable thought should be given. When I say that, I am not anxious that the Department of Munitions and Supply should assume the whole responsibility for the future of that great personnel now earning their living from this war-time necessity. But these workers do need to be guided and to be told that something is likely to happen to the industry in which they are engaged, and some lead should be given to them as to where they are to be able to earn their living. It is easy enough to say that the housewives can go back to their homes and the schoolboys and schoolgirls go back to school, but that is not enough. Many of' the housewives will never go back to domestic duties. A great number of the schoolboys and schoolgirls will not go back to school. Something more has to be done, and when that something more is being done for them I should like to see them guided1 by these ten good points which I ran across in a newspaper to-day, reprinted from the Land o' Lakes News, in the San Francisco Argonaut:
1.	You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
2.	You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
3.	You cannot help small men by tearing down big men.
4.	You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
5.	You cannot lift the wage-earner by pulling down the wage-payer.
6.	You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than your income.
7.	You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
8.	You cannot establish sound security on borrowed money.
9.	You cannot build character and courage by taking away a man's initiative and independence.
10.	You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.
But we can guide them and make a frank statement to them of the position into which we are drifting, and some department of government, in cooperation with, the Department of Munitions and Supply, should be charged with the responsibility of. taking a forwardlooking view in. the position in. which we now find ourselves.


Mr. LACOMBE (Translation):: In entering upon a discussion of the estimates of the Department of Munitions and Supply, I have in mind the numerous restrictions placed on the manufacture of articles of which the civilian population of this country has an essential need. At a time when farmers must renew their agricultural implements the all-essential farming industry is deprived of indispensable machines. The producers of maple sugar and syrup are in a similarly deplorable situation as regards their maple groves. We are told that metals are reserved for the prosecution of war. When it is obvious that war profiteers have exported thousands of tons of Canadian metal to the enemy since the declaration of war and a few days only before the outbreak of the conflict, is it surprising that our essential civilian industries should be deprived of articles necessary for their production? We are told again and again by the government that metals are reserved for the prosecution of war. Then, why did they authorize the export of our metals to Japan, a few weeks before war started between that country and the United States and Canada hastened to declare war on her? Is it conceivable that the government of Canada should have shown so little foresight as to let the enemy use our metals for building up a war machine which has already caused deaths within the ranks of our army, our navy and our air force? Those who have been responsible for such a dire situation shall be required by the people to account for their rank carelessness. I cannot find words strong enough to stigmatize such an attitude. I may be told that "such a situation could not have been anticipated". That is a poor excuse. The premonitory signs of Japan's warlike intentions could not

War Appropriation-Supplies

have escaped the attention of the government. Their connection with the Rome-Berlin axis was obvious. Reference to Hansard will show the concern of the government about the action of Japan, many months before her attack against Pearl Harbor. Once again, criminal purveyors had succeeded in cheating the authorities in order to increase their wealth. A small number of profiteers were waxing rich in betraying their country and laying our soldiers, airmen and sailors open to the attacks of the warships, bombers, guns and machine guns built by the enemy out of our metals. Such is the treacherous work of loathsome exporters and manufacturers who should be treated as the worst felons and brought before the courts of justice to answer for their crime.
I shall now deal with the rationing of oils and gasoline. It was indeed worth while to resort to it. It has been and is still disastrous. We have seen holders of the lowest category of ration books travel by motor car during the summer, the fall and even the winter. The black market was rampant for gasoline as well as for all rationed goods, meats, foodstuffs, sugar, alcohol, and so forth.
In a country like ours, endowed with enormous natural resources, rationing is not only a nonsense but an utter folly. As evidence, I need only mention the wasting of millions of pounds of meat, recently revealed, the hoarding, by thousands of families, of foodstuffs definitely wasted because they have become unfit for consumption and the failure of the government to carry out their now famous planned economy programme. That is a meaningless term.
In fact, the government, panic-stricken before the condition it has brought about, has just lifted restrictions on meat and beer. Believe me, it will not stop at that, all the more since it is now vainly trying to coax itself back into the favour of the people before appealing to the country, which step is required by public censure and the constitution.
The Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe) remarked last Friday, in the course of the debate, on the ruinous competition maintained by our railways with regard to transportation all over the country. This is a well-known fact. The Canadian National Railways, however, are ready to build a new elevated railroad in the northern part of Montreal instead of using the Canadian Pacific track over a long stretch of the new branch-line. Elevated railroads in 1944! Are they so little conscious of progress and reality that they must cut up six of the lovliest parishes of Montreal to make them reek with evil smells?
TMr. Lanombe.]
Let the government reject such a proposal. If new railroads are to be built, let them be underground. If this should cost ten or fifteen million dollars extra, little does it matter. A country which subscribes bounteous gifts and billion dollar presents annually can afford to spend a few million dollars on constructive and permanent works.
Let us think of the post-war period and save the northern part of Montreal from the calamity of elevated railroads which would shame the present government and disgrace the metropolis of Canada.
(Text)
Mr. Chairman, in concluding my remarks I wish to call the attention of the government and of parliament to a grievance of a very serious character. I wish to speak of the disastrous situation that is overtaking the producers of maple syrup and maple sugar-


The CHAIRMAN:: Order. I have allowed the hon. member a great deal of latitude while he has been speaking in French, but he will realize that maple syrup and maple sugar have nothing to do with the item before the Chair.


Mr. MacNICOL:: It is about time he was called to order.


Liguori Lacombe: Mr. Chairman, we are considering the estimates of the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe) and I would point out to you that maple sugar and syrup are national supplies. Shall I keep on?


Mr. CHEVRIER (Translation):: Maple
sugar and syrup come under the wartime prices and trade board and not under item 1 which we are now considering.


Liguori Lacombe: Mr. Chairman, speaking to the point of order raised by the hon. member for Stormont (Mr. Chevrier)
I wish to state that the whole matter of rationing comes under the Department of Munitions and Supply and that maple sugar and syrup are rationed in this country. Am I entitled or not to speak on this matter?


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: The hon. member for Laval-Two Mountains will please abide by the standing orders. A discussion of maple sugar and syrup positively does not come under the item under consideration at the present time.


Lionel Chevrier: Nor does rationing.


Liguori Lacombe: Again, Mr. Chairman, I wish to draw your attention to the fact that we are discussing the estimates of the Minister of Munitions and Supply. Do not maple sugar and syrup. .	.

War Appropriation-Supplies
Some hon. MEMBERS (Translation): Order! Order!


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I have given my ruling and I would ask the hon. member for Laval-Two Mountains to be kind enough to accept it and resume his seat. I know 'he realizes that he is out of order.


Liguori Lacombe: I accept youT ruling, Mr. Chairman, but I shall speak on this subject at some future date.


Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: First I wish to refer to the sale of surpluses of equipment from barracks, camps and so on, and surpluses of raw materials, by the War Assets Corporation. This is a very important matter and one upon which the people of Canada have, I believe, the right to an assurance from the government that in the operation of the War Assets Corporation the sales that take place shall be open to inspection by the public as a whole. To date we have had no assurance in this regard. Tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars of surplus goods, war goods and the like, will be available for sale. There will be sales from time to time as surpluses accumulate and these will continue until the end of the war and after.
A committee has been set up in order to ascertain the materials, and a corporation has been set up in order to dispose of those materials. In order to reassure all the people of the country that there will be equality of opportunity and of consideration, the transactions should be< conducted in the open. In that, I have support in the stand that is being taken in the United States.
The minister is aware of the steps that are being taken there. Two outstanding members were appointed by the administration to look into the matter and make recommendations, and they did so. I could deal with these particular points individually, but instead of doing so I am going to quote from the records of the War and Post-war Adjustment Policy report to the United States congress in order to ascertain whether or not similar principles are to be applied in Canada.
The basic principles accepted there, and applicable to Canada by reason of the similarity of conditions under which we live and the fact that we are joined together in common defence, are these. First, sell as much as can be early, without unduly disrupting normal trade; and second, no sales and no rentals to speculators, and none to promoters.
If this corporation is to operate fairly and squarely, that principle above all must be applied; otherwise we shall find ourselves in 100-108J
the position where speculators will take advantage of the fact that the government is in the market for the disposal of surplus goods, and the speculator rather than the government will reap the benefit.
Sell as in a gold-fish bowl, with records always open to public inspection. That to me is a most important recommendation. It is, I believe, one on which the minister should give his assurance at this time, the assurance in other words that what is to be done shall not be done behind closed doors or under the provisions of orders in council. Up to the present time, in the production of these goods and in the investigation into their costs, the people of Canada have not been able to secure full information. In the investigation of these matters in the war expenditures committee the people have been denied information. The same excuses for secrecy do not apply to the sales of such surpluses.
Next:
As far as practicable, use the same regular channels of trade that private business would m disposing of the particular properties.
No government operation of surplus war plants in competition with private industry.
I know there has been an exception made to that in Canada. There will be after the war in the rubber corporation at Sarnia, Ontario.


Clarence Decatur Howe: With what does that compete?


John George Diefenbaker: It is a government operation.


Clarence Decatur Howe: With what private industry does it compete?


John George Diefenbaker: It does not compete in the matter of manufacture, true enough, but it is actually the first move along the road to socialization.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is a wholly non-competitive industry.
Mr. DIEFENBAKER.: That is true.


Mr. GRAYDON:: Its product will compete.


Clarence Decatur Howe: With what?


Gordon Graydon: Other manufacturers.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is no manufacturer of rubber in this country.


Gordon Graydon: The production of rubber that goes on the market.


Clarence Decatur Howe: They do not manufacture
rubber.


John George Diefenbaker: This is one industry that we know about to-day that is to be operated by the government after the war.
War Appropriation-Supplies

Its course will be that of public ownership, something that the government has invariably stood opposed to. I should like to ask the minister whether it is the intention, after the war is over, to operate surplus war plants in Canada in opposition to private business. The minister says that so far as the Polymer Corporation is concerned, for the time being it is not operating in opposition to private business in the manufacture of rubber. That is true; but will he give the assurance that after the war it is not the intention of the government to operate any of the surplus industries in opposition to private industry?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I might answer that now. This government has, as far as I know since I have been a member of it, never entered into the manufacture of anything competitive with private industry.


John George Diefenbaker: That is not the question. Is it the intention in so far as surplus war plants are concerned, or any of them, to operate them by the state in competition with private industry?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The government's policy will be made known in due course.


John George Diefenbaker: That is exactly the point. The minister was very quick to answer that the government had not done it before the war, but he is not so fast on the trigger in so far as the post-war plans of the government are concerned in this connection.


Clarence Decatur Howe: According to my hon. friend his party is most hopeful of operating the government immediately after the war. Did he ever announce a plan for that purpose? If he has it has been to the Kiwanis club or some stock-breeders' association, not to the house.


John George Diefenbaker: Speaking about
stock-breeders' associations and the like, I think the minister had better get together with other ministers over there. In November or December of last year the minister announced that in the post-war period there was one matter that we must all be sure about, namely that we must take a definite stand that there shall be no unnecessary public works in order to guard against unemployment. On the same day that the minister was making his speech in Toronto the Minister of Pensions and National Health said that one thing we must do after the war in order to ensure that there will not be unemployment is to engage in a very wide public works programme. The ministers did not agree during the same day that they were enunciating a post-war programme. I would point out that I have not yet received an answer to the

question as to whether or not it is the intention of this government to operate any industries after the war in opposition to private enterprise.
With regard to the disposal of surplus the United States have adopted as a recommended principle that there shall be:
No monopoly; equal access to surpluses for all businesses; preference to local ownership, but no subsidizing of one part of the country against another.
That, too, is an important matter, and one upon which the committee and the country have the right to expect the assurance of the minister. We who come from the prairie provinces and the maritimes realize that during the period of the war no real and fair opportunity has been given to the building up of industries that could have been built up in those sections. In the disposal of those surpluses are those parts of Canada that were neglected during the war to receive an equality of opportunity in the securing of the surpluses that are disposed of between now and the end of the war and following the end of the war?
May I go on from there with something else upon which we require information in regard to surpluses? We should like a statement from the minister now or at some time during this debate as to the value of the tremendous amounts of supplies that lie piled up along the right of way between Ontario and the maritimes, much of which has been there for a very long period of time.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


John George Diefenbaker: That is what we want information on. How many million dollars worth of stuff-


Clarence Decatur Howe: Why does the hon. member not ask a question instead of making statements that are not correct?


John George Diefenbaker: The statements I make are correct, and I am asking for information as to particulars of the amount. I ask the minister how many million dollars worth of stuff has been on the right of way for a period of three years? How many million dollars worth of stuff has been there for two years? What is being done in connection with the salvaging of this stuff piled along the right of way?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I can answer that question now. No millions have been there for three years and no millions have been there for two years.


John George Diefenbaker: Has the minister the figures as to the value of the stuff that has been on the right of way for three years?

War Appropriation-Supplies


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. There has been none.


John George Diefenbaker: The minister makes that statement; therefore he must have the particulars. I am asking the minister to produce the particulars showing the value of the stuff on the right of way that has fallen into poor condition and is unusable because it has been there for such a long time. The minister says that there is none.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Chairman, I
had just about concluded the question I desired to ask the minister. What I have asked in connection with the War Assets Corporation might be epitomized in one question, namely: is the principle of the goldfish bowl to be applied as far as the disposal of surpluses is concerned? The matter is of very great interest in the business world in general. In the disposal of office equipment, kitchen equipment, stoves and the like, for instance, when the various air schools are closed up, will the general public have an opportunity to purchase needed supplies? Will the sales be made openly, so that all may have an opportunity to replenish their own requirements, which have been reduced to a minimum during the period of war?
I mentioned the situation with regard to the supplies that were piled up along the right of way of the various railways of this country. A portion of those supplies has been moved during the past year. Has that portion been moved overseas, or has it been transferred elsewhere for storage or disposal?
In that connection I should like to ask a question in reference to certain types of armoured equipment and the like. Have many of these vehicles been found no longer necessary and not required for overseas use by reason of changed war conditions and, if so, what disposition has been made of them? In particular, were any of the four-wheel drive vehicles known as "quads" not required overseas, or found unfit for service; if so, how many were involved and what disposition has been made of them. Also in reference to the production of Heath-Robinson lorries, how many of those were produced; were they found unfit for service and, if so, what was done with them after that was ascertained? I' ask for information for the purpose of finding out what disposition is being made of
these armaments or supplies which are not to be shipped overseas by reason of changed conditions.
I should like to request some information in regard to the demobilization of war industry. I think the minister should now be in a position to give the country a picture of what is in mind in that regard. To-day he pointed out the changes that have taken place, the manner in which the production of certain munitions and implements of war has been reduced, and so on. When that production finally ceases, naturally some factories will be closed down. What are the plans for the use of those factories in the transition period between war and peace? What are the plans for the sale or disposal of those plants? For instance, during the past three and a half to four years a phenomenal record has been made under the empire air training scheme. Some of those schools are now being closed. What does the government propose to do with the buildings located at those schools? Does it intend to turn them over to the municipalities to be used as, hospitals and similar institutions? As yet no plan has been placed before this, house, and I should like to have from the minister something of the general design or pattern the government has in mind, not the details but the general scheme for demobilization of war industry, both during the period of war as changing conditions make that necessary and after the war is over.
There is one other matter, and I think the minister would be the one through whom that information should be made available. What is the plan of the government in regard to the demobilization of economic controls, under the planned economy which has been in effect during the war? To what extent is it intended gradually to remove these uneconomic controls, or at least a portion of them? In the United States, in the United Kingdom, plans are being made and announced; parliament is being taken into the confidence of the ministry. So far as we in this house are concerned, however, plans of that kind have not been placed before us. I mentioned economic controls; I would add the departure from parliamentary government. It is time that we knew how long it is intended to continue the present trend. Only yesterday I received an answer to a question 'which indicates how parliament is being by-passed by those who to-day in the main control the economy of this country. I refer to the matter of orders in council. It is an amazing record that from the beginning of the war until March 15, 1944, there should be 42,398 orders in council passed, as well as 23,287 minutes of treasury board. I do not object to orders in council between
War Appropriation-Supplies

sessions, in the interests of efficiency, effectiveness and immediate action. This session commenced on January' 27 and from that date to March 15 a total of 1,186 orders in council and 850 minutes of treasury board were passed. While parliament has sat, parliament has not legislated. That function has been performed outside of this chamber.
These are matters removed from partisan consideration although, when they are brought before parliament, too often the attitude is taken that they are partisan matters. I ask the minister to take parliament and the country into his confidence. We have had in the course of the last few weeks a general picture of the demobilization of man-power after the war. We should now have revealed to us the story of the plans for the' demobilization of war industry. Parliament and the people are entitled to a better answer than the one I got from the minister this afternoon when I asked him whether the government intended to operate industry in opposition to private enterprise after the war; the answer being that the government policy would be revealed in due course. We get answers in this parliament such as, "Government policy will be revealed in due course," and, "It is not in the public interest," and that sort of thing. We are entitled to the fullest information and we should not be given answers of that kind. The other day, when a question was asked as to what salaries are paid to officials of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, the answer was given that it would not be in the public interest to give this information because it would reveal to private industry details with regard to government. Answers like that are not good enough.
Unless plans are made now, unless we know the scheme, there will be chaos when peace comes. We are not asking the minister to give the picture in detail; all we want is an outline of what the government intends to act on. I have not overlooked the fact that there does not seem to be agreement as to post-war plans, even among the ministry. One said that he believed in the principle of public works during the transition period and the other stated in effect that the principle of public works is something that , should be frowned upon. There seems to be disagreement in the government, disagreement among the ministers as to post-war planning. Let us have the picture, let us know what the post-war plans are for the demobilization of industry to which $800,000,000 have been advanced in the way of capital assistance, for unless plans are made now there will be complete chaos in carrying out this demobilization.


Mr. McIVOR:: Mr. Chairman, I am not
going to make a speech but I wish to state a couple of facts. I always enjoy listening to the Iron, member (Mr. Diefenbaker) who has just taken his seat, but I do not look at things just in the way he does. He has stated that over 1,100 orders in council have been passed, but we must not forget that if each one of those orders had been brought before this house and all the members of the Social Credit and the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation and a good percentage of the Conservative members had spoken, we would not be out of here in twelve months. Those orders in council w'ere authorized by parliament and they were absolutely necessary. I know that special information has been withheld, but when the general public are not asking for it I do not just see why we should give special information that may not be good for them.
When I was a young lad I read about the pioneers who settled in Ontario, in Manitoba and throughout the west. I do not think there has been a truer pioneer in Canada, either in the past or present, than the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe). It would not be hard to prove that statement. All we have to do is to consider what he has done, the new things he has introduced', sometimes against opposition. Tanks were never made in Canada before. Just consider the programme that was outlined on Friday last in connection with Trans-Canada Air Lines. He is one of the greatest pioneers that have ever occupied, a seat in this house or in any provincial house in Canada.
As I listened to the minister this afternoon my imagination began to work and I could see hundreds of thousands of workers doing the things that have been planned by the minister to be done. The minister held out for collective bargaining long before that w'as considered by the general public; also holidays with pay. He was a real pioneer. Another things that stands out is the fact that there has not been one dollar of graft in connection wuth the war effort. If any one says that that is not a real achievement when one is dealing with human nature of all kinds, then he had better go back and think again. Let us look at what happened. I know we have a committee on war expenditures; I know what their duties are; but when any one has been suspected of padding a payroll or carrying on any funny work the Minister of Munitions and Supply has immediately called in the Department of Justice; the mounted police investigate and a court action may follow. The minister does not get any-

War Appropriation-Supplies
thing out of these things except criticism. That is very poor politics, but is doughty statesmanship on his part and he is becoming more popular than ever.
We at the head of the lakes think there are few men like the Minister of Munitions and Supply. This week I received a number of letters asking why I did not rise in my place and state that the minister is above reproach. He is above reproach. Whether you belong to our group or to any other I am sure you will agree with me when I express the hope that he may be long spared to us. He learned to use the square and compass when he was a boy, and he is still using them. No matter what happens, under his control there will be neither chaos nor tumult.


Mr. BERTRAND (Terrebonne):: The war has caused an expansion in our national industry which might be termed magical.. In this conflict which has lasted for almost five years Canada has become the arsenal of the united nations. In order to attain this end the Department of Munitions and Supply has had, since its inception in September, 1939, to organize a vast system of production, create (he necessary factories and spend many millions of dollars for these purposes.
The county of Terrebonne has had the privilege of cooperating very closely with this war production. The towns of Terrebonne, Ste. Jerome and St. Therese have been almost exclusively engaged in war production and they have cooperated in a sustained and loyal effort. The Bouchard plants, located at Ste. Therese, were built for the purpose of filling shells and other essential purposes, and they are rated among the most important war industries, not only in Canada but in the whole empire. The municipal councils, the public bodies and the chamber of commerce of Ste. Therese, together with the municipal councils of Terrebonne and of Ste. Anne des Plaines, gave the Allied War Supplies Corporation in the foundation of Bouchard and its branches a support which could be used as a model for the rest of the country. The working class of my county-one of the most industrious of the country-even if it insisted upon its right of belonging to unions in order to protect its privileges, has nevertheless always shown a will to cooperate which denotes its social sense and its progressive spirit. There were no strikes in my county and in its factories. I wish to point that out because it honours my constituents.
Nobody was more closely related than myself to the creation and development of the Bouchard plants. I gave my best cooperation because I was conscious that in so doing I was,
as a member, serving the interests of my country. I sometimes objected to the wastefulness of Defence Industries Limited, because I knew I was right. The companies entrusted with the war production are often seriously to blame; they believe they are authorized to spend freely and without general planning; they form, in the midst of their directorates, family compacts which are rejected and hated by the working classes; they are often unfair when they choose their labourers. Quite often it happens that simply because a skilled worker does not speak English well enough, he is replaced by another who speaks English only. This is very inconsistent, since most of the workers in the Quebec war factories are French Canadians. It also happens too often that employees are fired, forsooth, because they are suddenly found inefficient after two or three years' service, and they are replaced by people from Nobel or Winnipeg, who speak only one language and whose evident inefficiency is, in many cases, a cause for laughter and dissatisfaction among other employees.
I wish in' particular to protest, as member for Terrebonne, against the unfairness of Defence Industries Limited, the company in charge of the plants known as Bouchard, and located at Ste. Therese, in my constituency.
My remarks on this will be short. I consider this statement important, both for the information of this house and for the protection of the working classes of my province.
During the last three or four weeks Defence Industries Limited, at Bouchard, hired about fifty employees from its Nobel plant, in Ontario, to fill, not labourers' positions, but a number of controlling posts which had been occupied with efficiency for two or three years by French- and English-speaking Canadians residing in my county, in the Montreal district, and even throughout the province of Quebec. These employees were dismissed or were compelled to accept .secondary jobs. Who hired the employees at Nobel? Who ordered their transfer?
I have reason to believe that this transfer was effected without the knowledge of the Department of Munitions and Supply, even without the knowledge of the Department of Labour, which controls man-power. I am convinced, however, that Defence Industries Limited took advantage of the authorization which might be granted by the laws, or even granted to itself the right of transferring from one of its plants to another a certain group of employees, thus avoiding going through local or regional offices of the selective service, and thus attaining more easily its purposes of partisanship. If this authorization is provided
War Appropriation-Supplies

War Appropriation-Supplies


John Ritchie MacNicol: I always like to listen to the hon. member for Fort William' (Mr. Mclvor), lauding the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe). On occasions I have heard the hon. member place the minister in a rank seemingly higher than the hosts of heaven, so that I have had to tell him, "Be careful, Dan, you are almost sacrilegious." I am sure the minister often says to himself, "May the Lord save me from my friends."
I am going to try to give him this evening a picture of something to which he referred very briefly this afternoon-the oil sand area of Fort MeMurray, and let me, in turn, say, "0 Lord, save the minister from his friends in connection with what is going on up at Fort MeMurray."
I have been in contact for quite some time with the situation at Fort MeMurray. I did not go up last summer, for I did not want to be there when the initial programme was being entered into, but from what I have heard I am satisfied that it will be necessary to go next summer to see just how little has been done.
A few days ago the Edmonton Journal quoted a speech made in the Alberta legislature on March 14 by the Hon. Mr. Fallow, who is undoubtedly a responsible, conscientious gentleman-at least I believe him to be [DOT]-and in the course of his remarks he made some very strong statements. I am not sure how much the Minister of Munitions and Supply has to do with what is going on at Fort MeMurray. I hope it is little-


Clarence Decatur Howe: I may settle that now. I have nothing to do with it. The vote is in the Department of Mines and Resources. However, I like to hear my hon. friend explain these matters and I hope he will go ahead.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I was going to say I hope the minister had nothing to do with it because I think too much of him and I know his ability is too great to permit any such situation as is going on at Fort MeMurray to-day. Certainly the progress has not lived up to any of his expectations when he introduced the agreement approximately a year ago.
What did the hon. Mr. Fallow say? I will quote a few of his statements-and, I repeat, they are very strong statements coming from a minister of the crown:
Mr. Fallow charged that the northern undertaking has been a "colossal farce." War requirements for petroleum are so urgent that the dominion government has spent $1,700,000 in the past eighteen months to investigate the possibilities of extracting oil from the sand, i and so far as the actual investigation is con' cerned, all they have to show for it is a hole in the ground.

I know that hole in the ground was there before the contractors went north.
Out of the north came an endless procession of weird, incredulous stories of criminal incompetence and scandalous waste of public funds, and charges of sabotage were heard on every hand.
That is in keeping with correspondence I have had from Fort MeMurray, from people who would have no reason to state anything but the facts. Hon. Mr. Fallow goes on:
The stories I got from men who were working on the project made me wonder if the dominion government had borrowed some of the inmates of an insane asylum to handle the work.
And further:
No construction work was done that was not changed at least once, said the minister. Changes three to five times were not uncommon. It will perhaps be conservative to say that 25 per cent of the workmen were continuously engaged in tearing down some of what the other 75 per cent put up.
Further:
In summing up, Mr. Speaker, may I say that the pathetic flounderings of this gang of pussyfooting amateurs is beyond description.
That is very strong language. It is not my language, but it largely bears out what has been sent to me from Fort MeMurray.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Perhaps we had better
straighten that out now.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Will the minister allow me to continue my argument?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The hon. gentleman made a serious allegation.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I made no allegation; I quoted what a responsible minister said.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The hon. gentleman quoted it and therefore evidently endorsed it. It is strong language. He talks about amateurs; I want to give the pedigree of the people on both sides, including Mr. Fallow.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Will the minister take his seat and let me continue.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The hon. member is slandering
my associates.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The minister can say
anything he likes afterwards. I want to tell the minister he is altogether too combatant. He is too fond of arguing with anyone who says anything about his department. A few moments ago he said it was not his business but the business of the mines and resources department. Why then does he want to rise and interrupt my remarks?
May I continue where I left off a moment ago when I said that similar stories had come

War Appropriation-Supplies
to me. In January last I wrote to a friend in Edmonton to go to Fort McMurray and take photographs panoramic and I have in my hand the panoramic pictures he sent to me. They are dated January 25, 1944. I also have in my hand a photograph I took in 1942, for I have been to Fort McMurray on three different occasions. I do not talk about anything I do not see, and I am one of the few members who have been there. Last fall when certain gentlemen appeared before the reconstruction committee to testify in connection with this matter of the tar sandls. I did not know at the time that two of them had never been there, as I am informed, or I believe I would have asked that they retire. I am not sure that the third one was there. I am told that he was not, but he informed me that-he was and so I will take his word. There is too much long-distance talk with regard to a plant that is a long way off about which some who discuss it actually know little. I have here a picture of the plant which I took myself. It is a picture of the 1942 Abasand plant. That company should never have been displaced. That is my judgment and I will stack my judgment against anyone else's. I was in big business for many years, associated with engineers for a considerable time, and I will stack my business experience against anyone else's. Twenty-live years' experience of big business is not picked up in a few minutes.
This picture shows the oil sand mine. It shows the second or 1942 plant and I saw the plant operating, so that I know what it did, notwithstanding what anyone else may say. The 1944 picture does not show the big building to which the sand was taken out of the mine for separation. That building has been pulled down. The 1944 panoramic view shows that the 1942 separation building has been pulled down and it discloses the end of the first pulper. There were two. I am told on reliable authority-the officials of the Department of Mines and Resources can check up on this information-that that new building was started on a grade fifteen feet lower than it is to be. The foundations have been raised fifteen feet, the reason given being the fear that the Horse river would overflow and interfere with the pulping in the new building. I am told, what the Hon. Mr. Fallow said, that there have been numerous changes in construction. Every time a new manager comes, there is a change, and the minister knows there have been several of them. He shakes his head; then he does not know.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is right; I have nothing to do with it.
100-109J


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am glad to hear that. I think too much of the minister to have him charged with such a mess as is reported there. It was about last May, I believe, that the first operators, or those who were directed to produce oil or asphalt at Fort McMurray, went there. Well, here is a picture taken in January, 1944. It shows the separator building is pulled down and some of the tanks have been moved across the river. The separating plant is down, not a thing done to the refinery. Nothing taken out of the pit in a year's time. What was done? A line of water-pipe is said to have been run all the way from that supposed townsite to the Athabaska river. It makes me laugh. It is being called a town-site. Apparently those who are in there expect to be able to build a town without proving anything as the minister intended should be done. Without anything being proved, a water-line has been run all the way to the Athabaska river. I am told that pipe was put into a trench eight feet deep and then taken out and laid on top of the ground. When the frost came along the pipe was put back in the trench again and covered with dirt. What a comedy! I just cannot find the right language to describe it. I am sure the minister would not have tolerated it for two seconds when he was in business building big elevators all over the country.
I have a number of little pictures here which show some fifteen or twenty bunkhouses or small houses being started. According to my information, of that number three perhaps are fit for occupation. No. 1 plumbing fixtures and a No. 1 heating plant have been put in the bunkhouse I slept in. When I was there, there was neither steam heat nor plumbing in it. I should have thought that the man on that job would have first followed out what the minister had planned. I am going to give the minister credit for this. The first thing he proposed to do was to make all the investigation possible and for that purpose $300,000 were appropriated. The first thing that should have been done was to prove something to the satisfaction of whoever was in charge there. That was not done. Money has, in my judgment, been squandered, wasted. That is borne out by what Mr. Fallow said. They are constructing buildings and there is nothing for anyone to do, because the mill is not up and will not be up soon. That is the last information I have and it is in accordance with the speech delivered by Mr. Fallow. The mill is not expected to be in operation before next fall.
The minister will remember that a year ago, in reading the agreement and giving the
War Appropriation-Supplies

talk on the production of the oil sands, he said that he expected that by the fall of 1943 the plant into which this country had poured a barrel of money would be in operation and making asphalt for the Alaska highway. Was that not right? Not a single, solitary thing has been made, not a drop of oil, not a pound of asphalt, because there is nothing in which to make it. I wish to protest' as strongly as I can, as a Canadian taxpayer, against such lack of business as is going on at Fort McMurray. I wish to protest as strongly as I pan against the waste, what appears to be the utter waste of public money. This is not Mr. Fallow saying that. I am saying it, and I am saying it on the basis of these pictures that I am looking at, which were taken on January 25, 1944, and if any of the press would like to have them I should like them to take them and publish them. For the expenditure of a barrel of money not a worthwhile thing has been done toward producing oil or asphalt. A few houses have been erected and a ditch or two dug. Some plumbing has been installed and perhaps a roadway patched up, but not a thing done for which the money was voted, namely, the production of oil and asphalt.
I feel keenly about this; I really do, because, rightly or wrongly, perhaps wrongly, I felt that in the speech I made in 1941, after having made a trip up to Fort McMurray and after having investigated the plant carefully, after having seen what they were doing there-and in my judgment they were doing a good job considering that they had every conceivable piece of pioneering work to do; I know the minister from Edmonton will bear me out that they had to discover everything-I had given a lead. It is quite true, as has been said before, that they had difficulties in discovering a method of taking the sand out of the pit. It was all pioneer work. There was nobody in America who knew how to do it better. But the Abasand company did overcome that, at the report submitted by the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company stated. I have the report here and I shall read what they say about it. May I first deal with separation? This is the report of the Consolidated Mining and Smelting company. They say:
We are of the opinion that the process of Abasand Oils Limited for separating the bitumen from the sands is a practical one which could be used in a large scale plant and which would yield reasonable results. Recoveries in the separation plant were consistently over ninety per cent.
They afterwards stated that the Chicago refining company, to w'hich the Consolidated

Mining and Smelting company engineers had sent quite a number of barrels, I believe, eighty barrels, reported that they got as high as ninety-seven per cent of oil. The Consolidated Mining and Smelting company were reliable. The minister sent them up there because they were reliable engineers. Their report to the minister stated that the refining was satisfactory. Then, Mr. Chairman, why in the name of heaven did the men not carry on? There have been so many different managers up there that I imagine each one will blame it on the other; the men who are there now I believe are called the General Engineering Company or some other name; I am not passing any comment on them. Apparently they are starting all over again. What did the others do who went ahead of them with it? I shall go back tq where I started. The minister tells us he had nothing to do with it. I am sorry he has not had anything to do with it. I am convinced that if he had anything to do with it, it would not be in the mess it is in to-day. I make that kind statement to the minister because he has done things.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am beginning to think the hon. member is the man who got us into all this trouble.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That is why I am interested in it now. I like to go and see things. I like to devote my time and effort and the best I have toward developing this country. That is the joy I have out of life, to serve my country. Just as soon as I cannot render some service in this House of Commons to my native country I am going to retire from the House of Commons. There is. nothing in public life for me except service. What I do I do for the country. I try to do something for the country, and I repeat, I am glad that the minister is not responsible for the mess up there. I am sorry he did not have something to do with the matter. I am sure if he had had something to do with it, it would not be in the mess it is to-day.
The Consolidated Mining and Smelting company said that outside of the separation being satisfactory, the Abasand company had overcome the difficulties of mining. I know what the difficulties are; I was there. I was there several days on different occasions. I saw their planers operate. It was a good idea, but it did not work because when the planers come up against sand like that the sand wears the planers out. The Abasand people did not know that when they started to use planers instead of digging or picking the sand out the planers proved unsatisfactory. The Abasand

172i5
War Appropriation-Supplies
people did not think sand would wear the planers out, but they had to abandon them and then they went into blasting, which they found satisfactory. I saw that myself. I saw them blast many, many tons at a time. I saw how the sand disintegrated. I saw them use steam shovels and take it to the mill.
What was the trouble? What was the difficulty that the Abasand company had not overcome? Th%y had built a separation plant big enough to separate four hundred or more tons of sand a day. My 1942 picture shows the mill there and the refinery at the back of the mill. I have the picture of them here. The refinery was not big eiiough to take care of much more than half what the mill separated. If the Minister of Mines and Resources could have taken the time in 1943 to go up there before anything was done and could have talked to the Abasand men who were there and who had overcome many of the difficulties, and who were doing a good job, I do not believe he would have sent anybody up there but the. people who were there. I hold no brief for them. They are nothing to me. I am a stranger to them, but they were doing a good job. They had a new mill which they operated in 1942 when I was there. They turned out that summer from the 19th day of May to the 30th day of September, 17,000 barrels of oil. They could have turned out much more if the refinery plant had been of the same capacity as the separation plant. As I say, if the minister had had time to have gone there himself, I am satisfied that he would have done just as good a job there as he has done elsewhere, and we would now be producing oil up there in a big way, as it should be produced. Last fall when one of the engineers of the department, I believe it was Doctor Haanel, was before the committee, he told us of the necessity of producing oil; he explained that since 1930 the oil wells being tapped in the United States or blown in or coming into production had not been sufficient to keep up with the demand for oil, and how necessary it was that Canada should produce
oil.	Then, at page 923 of the proceedings of the committee for November 30, 1943, he went on to make this significant and more or less alarming statement as to what may be the ultimate outcome in connection with these oil sands:
I may say in passing there are various stories written about the anxiety which the United States is showing regarding their oil supplies. She lays great stress on the bituminous sands of Alberta but says that is a problem for us to take care of.
And so it is a problem for us Canadians. No one knows better than the minister how necessary it is for Canada to produce oil in a big way. I quite agree that under present conditions there may be limitations to what we can do. I was on the spot; I went up and down the river for some fifty or sixty miles. I know also that in their report to the minister the Consolidated Mining and Smelting company stated that by open-cut operations 50,000,000 barrels of oil could be taken out of that sand. That is something; it is much better than nothing. If the minister had just taken hold of this whole business right after he received the report of the Consolidated Mining and Smelting company; if he had undertaken to carry on that business there, perhaps to-day a good part of those 50,000,000 barrels of oil would have been taken out.
Of course for the last thirty years engineers of the Department of Mines and Resources have been telling the world that we have the greatest and richest oil deposit in the world. Everyone knows how many wells you have to drill before you get one that will flow oil; I think only about one out of every ten is of real use. There at Fort McMurray, in the immediate area right around that little plant, according to the evidence submitted in these reports we have approximately 5,000,000 barrels. I believe that is the richest oil sand in the world, capable of producing one barrel of oil for each cubic yard of sand. Of course, as everyone knows, if you could get a well that would flow all the time that would be fine, but how do we get it? I do not want to say anything but the kindest about Turner valley, but look at the number of wells that have been drilled there. It has a production of perhaps
10,000,000 barrels a year, and that is not big oil. When I was last at Fort McMurray I met one of the most celebrated geologists in the world, a high official of the United States government. He said to me, "Mr. MacNicol, if you can get $10,000,000 out of the government at Ottawa I will get $10,000,000 at Washington and we could build a plant here, because this is the greatest deposit that I know of." That man goes all over the world for the United States government. Recently he was away down in South America; I had a letter from him, from Chile. I do not think he would make statements like this haphazardly, and it was a pity that in my speech in 1942 I could not persuade this government to put up $10,000,000 and the government at Washington to put up another $10,000,000, for maybe we would be producing perhaps 20,000 barrels of oil a day from these sands, and that is a good deal of oil to start with.
War Appropriation-Supplies

Now I want to show what the government has done. In this I am not finding fault with the minister; I think he made an honest attempt, but I should like to know how it got out of his hands. I am told now that the matter rests with the Department of Mines and Resources. The minister having started it, I now wish he had kept on with it; I am sure we would have had much better results than we have had so far. What did the minister hope for after he took over the plant? I quote from Hansard for April 14, 1943, at page 2153:
We hope to have a small commercial operation, as a by-product of the research this summer, producing bituminous material for the Alaska highway, so that there will be some revenue to offset the expenditure.
We all hoped there would be revenue from it. Now the Alaska highway has been built, and still we are not producing oil there. I do not know how far the minister can interfere with the Department of Mines and Resources, but I am sorry to say that the evidence given by officials of that department last fall before the reconstruction committee shocked me very much. It seemed to me that something was wrong. I always hoped, and so stated, that the mines and resources department would be completely in earnest in connection with the production of oil there, but just read the evidence given to the committee on November 30 last year. I do not like to refer to it; it did not show very much in the way of cooperation in connection with the production of oil at Fort McMurray. Did I understand the minister to say that the company operating the plant is a crown company?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It belongs to the government?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Then who owns it?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is owned by the same
owners as before. We took over the plant in order to carry on certain explorations. I am not very familiar with the agreement, but I think the ownership remains as it was.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I have the agreement here, and I think it is worth quoting:
Whereas the oil controller, Department of Munitions and Supply, has recommended to the government that for the purpose of more effectively prosecuting the war

That was an extremely fine purpose.
-in which His Majesty is presently engaged, all possible sources of new oil supplies in Canada should be investigated and put into production if such is found feasible;
fMr. MacNicol.j
And whereas the government during the past thirty years has investigated the extent and quality of northern Alberta bituminous (or tar) sand deposits and the most conclusive result to date is that the Horse river reserve, near McMurray, is known to contain substantial deposits which because of their grade, location, and volume have the most immediate potential importance for petroleum production;
And whereas the contractor has carried on investigations since 1930 into machinery and processes for mining the Alberta tar sands, extracting the bitumen, and refining petroleum products therefrom. . . .
Then a little later on it states:
And whereas the oil controller, Department of Munitions and Supply, and the director of mines and geology branch. Department of Mines and Resources, recognizing the necessity of exploring all possibilities of producing petroleum products, greatly needed in this emergency and afterwards, have recommended that a test or pilot plant should be developed for the purpose of proving what can be produced from the Alberta bituminous or tar sands, and that an agreement should be entered into with the contractor under which its plant would be remodelled and enlarged, if necessary, to serve as such test or pilot plant to carry out the investigations referred to in the preceding paragraph, and also to produce needed asphalt and roadoils.
Then the government displaced the Abasand company management and sent in Mr. Smith, Mr. Irwin and others to operate the plant. If that is not a crown company why should the government make the first initial payment of $300,000. It is a crown company because the minister said that the crown was taking it over. Then a controller was appointed, and the evidence I have is that the controller either has not carried out his duties or has been displaced. Much is going on up there that he appears to know nothing about, and yet the agreement states emphatically that the controller must approve all plans and changes. I am sure that if the government accedes to the request of the provincial government of Alberta to appoint a royal commission it will be found that many changes have been made without the consent of the controller. I am told that evidence is available to prove that to be the case.
If this matter does not come under the minister's department, then he cannot answer and I shall have another opportunity to bring it up when the Minister of Mines and Resources comes before us. I want to know exactly what amount of money has been spent to date. According to these figures we have received little for the expenditures made. I am told that to-day there are approximately 150 employees. I am told also that there are three women there. What in the name of heaven are women doing in that part of the countrv, away in the backwoods? They must

War Appropriation-Supplies
be stenographers, but I do not think the Abasand company would require any women stenographers. When I was there the Abasand company had a staff of about seventy, but it is said there are 150 to-day falling over one another doing little, pulling down a building and sticking it up again somewhere else, going from post to pillar and hither to yon'.
According to the minister's statement about a million dollars has been spent. The Minister of Mines and Resources should be able to tell us just how much has been spent. When he does I will venture the Minister of Munitions and Supply will say, "Ob, if I had only had that money, what a job I could have done!" I am sure I could have done a much better job myself. I bet anything I would be producing oil to-day. I would gladly have given my time free of charge and' paid my own expenses to do so for the sake of this country, my land.
A few minutes ago the minister said that I am responsible for this. I feel somewhat responsible for having made a speech which seemingly conveyed to the Minister of Munitions and Supplies the idea that I was right. I feel pleased that he is convinced that there are great resources there, but I am sorry that there has been a waste of a million or more dollars, whatever it is, without a drop of oil or one pound of asphalt having been produced. Some one will have to give an account of where that money has gone. We shall have to have the name and address of each individual in that staff of 100 or 150 people. We want to know what they are doing. We want to know where all the lumber has gone that was brought in there, where all the tools are.
I am told that there is no one keeping track of the spades, wrenches and things of that sort being used. That is not the way to run a business. The minister would not run a business in that way, nor would I. When I was in business we had a tool department, and when any tool went out the man in charge kept a record. The man who took it out had to bring it back or pay for it. It is alleged that no one has kept track of the tools here. I know there has been considerable trouble in getting men, and I am told also that there are nearly as many bosses as there are men.
Max Ball in his day was usually on the job in Edmonton and there were three or four members of the executive at Fort McMurray when I was there. I want a full report of what was done with every dollar that went into this plant. I want to know how many times the different employees went back and forth between Edmonton and the plant. Why were people moved up there? What was the cost of moving their furniture
up there or bringing it out again. The country is entitled to know what was done with this million or a million and a half dollars. That is a lot of money when everyone is digging down into his pockets for the last dollar he can pinch in order to pay his income tax. That is a lot of money when every workman in our Canadian plants is having an income tax deduction made from his pay envelope. Some one will have to give an accotmt for this apparent waste of money. Some one will have to explain why there is no oil or asphalt to show for this expenditure. I support the request made by the Alberta government that a royal commission be appointed to go into this whole matter in order that we may know where we stand.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I realize that this discussion is quite irregular, because this matter comes under another department, but since my hon. friend has made a statement I should like to say a few words. I think he is mistaken about what we are trying to do at Abasand. We are trying to get information to see whether that deposit can be made into a large source of petroleum which can be sold at commercial prices. If it is a source of petroleum commercially obtainable it will warrant the expenditure of anywhere from $20 million to $50 million. If it is not a commercial source the government will not be warranted in spending any more money on the project. A small source of petroleum is of no value in that locality. The limited market there can be filled by the plant already there.


John Ritchie MacNicol: And which has been wiped out.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We could have stopped at any time and said, "No, it is not good enough; we are not warranted in exploring for further possibilities." We have made changes in the process from time to time, but that is the purpose of a plant of that kind, when being operated to get information. I sincerely hope that by June we shall know whether or not we have anything. In the meantime tests are going on in Chicago to see what process must be used to get rid of the high sulphur content. Other tests are being made by means of refinery runs to see what can be made of the product by using different processes.
As an engineer, I would say that all that is necessary before the government should be asked to commit itself for a huge sum of money. The money being spent to-day, largely for exploration work, is not too much, because we have been spending money, as
War Appropriation-Supplies

my hon. friend says, for the last thirty years. We should find out whether we are warranted in spending money to get production, or whether we are not warranted in Bpending money. If we are not, we should pull out. Within the next several months, I sincerely hope that we shall find out whether we are justified in going on. We are trying to exhaust every possibility. We have spent something less than S900,000 up to this moment.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Including the Consolidated?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Including everything. That amount of money is not excessive for explorations of that kind. We can go on spending two or three hundred thousand dollars a year, as we have for many years, and get nowhere, or we can spend a good deal of money and either arrive somewhere, or decide that there is no possibility of arriving anywhere. Therefore I suggest that my hon. friend do not look for immediate results in the way of profits. There are no profits coming out of the exploration that is going on to-day, but we hope to get information on which to base our future course.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I was undoubtedly remiss in my duty a few moments ago. I did not want to stop the hon. member for Davenport from making his statement on the tar sands, but when the minister stated that the matter did not come within his department I should then have stopped the discussion, because we are always inclined in committee to have discussions that are repetitions. As the hon. member for Davenport said at the end of his remarks, there will be an opportunity for full discussion of this matter when the appropriate item in the estimates is reached, and I must therefore rule the discussion out of order.


Mr. McNEYIN:: I hesitate to discuss a matter that is entirely irrelevant to the estimates now under discussion, Mr. Chairman, but in fairness to the gentleman who is now general manager of Abasand Limited, I want to say that he is a prominent Toronto business man whose integrity and ability are not questioned. This gentleman, Mr. George B. Webster, has been in the office of the oil controller for some considerable time doing excellent work, and so far as I am concerned I think he will give a good account of himself not only with Abasand Limited, but in anything else which he undertakes to supervise.


Mr. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: Mr. Chairman, in the remarks I have to make on this question I wish to make it absolutely clear

that I have nothing to say reflecting on the honesty or integrity of anybody, though it may reflect on their business ability. But the main concern I have in this matter is that we should either get results or know the reason why. I was amazed at the remarks just made by the Minister of Munitions and Supply. I was under the impression that this matter was under his department, but when I got answers to questions I had put on the order paper the other day I noticed that they were brought down by the Minister of Mines and Resources. Nevertheless the Minister of Munitions and Supply has on every occasion dealt with this question of the development of the tar sands, and even to-day in making his presentation he dealt in part with the tar sands and said that he would make a further statement in regard to them in the near future. Last year it was the Minister of Munitions and Supply who was the only one to deal with this question on the government side of the house. I do not recall the Minister of Mines and Resources ever dealing with the tar sands. Certainly he has not done very much in that regard since the war started.
The Minister of Munitions and Supply said a moment ago that the main concern of his department in this matter was to get information. That is commendable. Information is essential.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Order. I am convinced that a discussion of the tar sands is absolutely out of order after the answer just given by the minister, who stated clearly that there will be ample opportunity to discuss this problem when the estimates of the Department of Mines and Resources are before the committee. I trust that the hon. member will respect the ruling of the Chair.


Charles Edward Johnston: But the question has been under discussion, Mr. Chairman, and while it is up I should like to say a few words upon it. The minister was dealing with the question of getting information in regard to the Athabaska tar sands. That is probably one of the first essentials. But the minister should also understand that the Department of Mines and Resources,, through its research branch, has been working on this problem for over thirty years. Last year in the house, when the Minister of Munitions and Supply was speaking on this subject, he said that to his own knowledge they had been working on the tar sands for about thirty years, and the same evidence was given before the reconstruction committee last year.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Order. I have always received marvellous cooperation from every member of the house. This applies forcibly

War Appropriation-Supplies
to the hon. member for Bow River, and I trust that the hon. member will abide by the ruling I gave a few moments ago. There will be ample opportunity to discuss this question when the estimates of the Department of Mines and Resources are before the committee, when full information can be given much more easily than at the present time.


Mr. HANSELL:: Might I discuss the point of order for a moment, Mr. Chairman? We recognize your desire to be fair and to conduct the business of the house in the best interests of all. But the position at this time is that the tar sands have been discussed. The tar sands are of particular interest to members of parliament from Alberta. We appreciate the fact that the hon. member for Davenport is coming to our assistance; but the attitude that the public will take, and I think it is obvious, is that somebody from' outside Alberta discussed the tar sands in the House of Commons, while the members from Alberta sat silent in their seats. I think on that basis alone it would be only fair that some speaker from Alberta should be permitted to follow the hon. member for Davenport in discussing this vital issue, and I can assure you, Mr. Chairman, that if the hon. member for Bow River discusses it, we shall be quite satisfied, so far as our group is concerned, not to repeat what he has said.


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: On the point of order, Mr. Chairman, it is quite true that under the Department of Mines and Resources there in an item dealing specifically with geology and the development of the tar sands, but I suggest that, strictly speaking, these are not ordinary estimates where each department is called separately, and that there is no power in the Chair to limit the discussion except by agreement upon all sides. That is not the case with the ordinary civil estimates. But here it is done by agreement by the committee, and .1 think by cooperation we can reach the same result as we do in committee of supply.


Ernest George Hansell: I think we shall all agree, Mr. Chairman, to let the hon. member for Bow River proceed.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I believe that the
request is a reasonable one since the hon. member has assured the committee that there will be no repetition by members of his group; repetition has, of course, been criticized in the press several times, and I may also be criticized if I allowed them to go unnoticed.


Charles Edward Johnston: Thank
you, Mr. Chairman. I shall take no longer than is necessary. I was discussing the part
which the Minister of Munitions and Supply had played in this matter every year, and it is surprising to me at least that the Minister of Munitions and Supply has been the only minister on the government benches who has seen fit to deal with this question. Some of the letters which I have in regard to the development of the tar sand, and particularly the experimental work that was carried on are letters written and signed by the Minister of Munitions and1 Supply, so that whether or not the matter comes directly under his department, it is certainly one in which he is directing the progress of development, and therefore he must share to a degree the responsibility for its progress.


Lionel Chevrier: But he has just said he is not.


Charles Edward Johnston: I have
letters here signed by the minister, written to the province of Alberta, and dealing with this question, so that he must have something to do with this development. It may be only the experimental work with which he is concerned. But certainly the letter which the Minister of Munitions and Supply wrote to the premier of Alberta on June 23, 1942, deals with this very problem. Let me read part of it:
War requirements for petroleum are so urgent, particularly in connection with the activities in northern Alberta, that the federal government wish to explore the possibilities for a large-scale development in the vicinity of the Abasand operation.
Tentative arrangements have been made to have the exploratory work carried out under the direction of officers of Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company. The deposits will be drilled to determine the quantities. The Abasand refinery runs will be checked and studied in an effort to determine refining costs. Laboratory tests, and possibly a full scale refinery run, will be carried out to determine whether the sulphur content can be dealt with in order that aviation gasoline can be obtained as one of the products.
This work is, of course, contingent on the approval and cooperation of your government. If the work is to be undertaken it is our desire that no more crown leases be granted in this area until a decision can be reached as to whether a large-scale development is warranted.
I would appreciate the favour of an early reply which will, I hope, offer the cooperation of your government in the studies which we propose to undertake.
This letter is signed by the minister. Therefore, definitely, he has something to do with it, because it was he who communicated with the government of Alberta to secure their cooperation, which they most readily agreed to give, as is evidenced in a letter which I have here dated July 3, 1942, in reply to the minister's letter, and signed by the then premier, the late Mr. Aberhart.
War Appropriation-Supplies

One of the things which astonishes me in the minister's letter is the statement:
It is our desire that no more crown leases be granted in this area until a decision can be reached as to whether a large-scale development
is warranted.
It is the only case of which I have recollection wherein any other enterprise has been asked to stay out of the development field. In almost every other field of prospecting for minerals, everybody has been encouraged to go in and assist the government in discovering and developing these natural resources. But here is one area, in the northern part of Alberta, which has the largest potential supply of gasoline in the world. It has been, estimated at 250 billion barrels, and our own government experts estimate it at over 100 billion barrels. Yet the dominion government request that nobody else be allowed to go in there and do anything in the line of development until this government has had a chance to see whether it is worth while or not.
That is a peculiar attitude to take. I have studied the report of the reconstruction and reestablishment committee with regard to this development of the Abasand tars by the Abasand oil company, and the vagueness of the evidence is amazing. The issue is continually evaded. In almost every instance there is contradiction. One cannot but get the impression of a design to stall the operations and development of that Abasand company.
I believe such an attitude would be unwarranted even in peace time. How clearly it is exemplified I shall endeavour to point out in greater detail as we go on.
Let us look at the research plant here at Ottawa which is concerned with this matter. The Department of Munitions and Supply has something to do with it; there is no getting away from that. It is clearly indicated by letters which I have here.
May I interpose at this point that I think the Minister of Munitions and Supply has done a wonderful job as far as developing our war effort is concerned. I have said so before. But this is one place, or I should say, this is one more place where the government has definitely fallen down on its responsibility. I should like to see the whole thing put under the Department of Munitions and Supply, because I think the minister is capable, and I was agreeably surprised to learn to-day that he has not anything actively to do with it.
This plant in Ottawa has spent, in one instance that I know of, in the development of tar sands, over 8500,000. It is recorded in Hansard in a statement of the Minister of Munitions and Supply last year that the plant has been engaged for thirty years on research

in the development of tar sands. But we are not even yet at the place where we know where they are1 going. Let us turn to some of the evidence in this regard. On page 921 of the evidence given before the reconstruction committee, Mr. W. B. Timm', director of the mines and geology branch, Department of Mines and Resources, says:
While the results of this research work- That is, research carried on here at Ottawa.
will be of real value to any research work carried out in a larger plant, they wall not serve to guide engineers in the design of a commercial plant.
Well, now what in the world have we been doing for the last four years, ever since the war started? According to the minister's own words this is an urgent matter. He appealed to the province of Alberta for cooperation. Its urgency was stressed on the ground that we were short of gasoline. If that is so, this report is not very encouraging.
Let me cite some more evidence. On page 923 Mr. Timm says:
We therefore recommend that the unit best adapted for our investigations should be of the dimensions that can be termed semi-technical.
For thirty years they have been doing research work on this problem. The war has now lasted for over four years. Gasoline is one of our most precious and vital supplies. We have spent about a million dollars on development work. Now they say they want a larger unit because "the unit best adapted for our investigations would be one that can be termed semi-technical." The plant they have now is not, they say, suitable for their investigations.
The functions of the proposed new laboratory and plant are to investigate various processes involving hydrogenation applied to Canadian raw materials such as coals, bitumen, heavy crude oils, and residuums from petroleum refining that can be utilized as sources of gasoline or other liquid fuels.
It is amazing that after thirty years of research, after spending around a million dollars, they have finally decided that the plant which they have been using for experimental purposes is of no use whatever for the design of a commercial plant, and now they want a larger one.
May I quote a little further from this evidence, on page 922:
As stated previously, a small experimental hydrogenation plant for studying the manufacture of synthetic liquid fuels from such sources as coal, bitumen, et cetera, has been established.
That is the one here in Ottawa on Booth street.
This is as far as Canada has gone to provide substitute fuels for such a contingency.

War Appropriation-Supplies
So that the evidence given before that committee is that that is as far as they have gone, though over a million dollars has been expended on this development, in research.
This effort while of considerable value in providing scientific information can in no sense be considered as a major contributing factor to the solution of the problem under discussion.
Here in the statements which I have read is the evidence that the progress made to date is anything but satisfactory and they do not even know yet what the prospects are for these Abasand deposits. Let us see more of the evidence. Asked the question, before the committee:
What success have you had?
They state:
We believe the results are encouraging but v'e cannot go nearly far enough with the small help we have.
The further question was asked:
What would you require in the way of an enlarged plant to make your researches more effective?
The answer was:
That is really the plan now that is being presented here.
Up to date they have not had facilities to make their researches effective and what efforts they have been making have consisted in playing around with the subject. Is there any wonder then that the provincial government of Alberta has come to the point where it says that it looks as if there had been a deliberate effort to sabotage these tar sands?
The plant at Fort McMurray has been referred to, and the progress there has been apparently anything but satisfactory. In this evidence, at page 930, they make a further statement with reference to the plant in the north. Let me read one question:
Q.	You spoke about having a plant in mind there with a volume of 200 gallons a day?
A. That is what we would like to have.
Q. Presuming the funds were available, how long do you think it would take to erect that plant and equip it with the necessary machinery?
A. That is very hard to say under present conditions.
Q. But you could give us an estimate?
A. A very rough guess would be a year and a half.
The minister said that they would have sufficient knowledge to know whether they would go on with it around June. Here the request of this geological research committee is for a new plant to go ahead with an order to obtain further knowledge in regard to these sands. They want sufficient money to build the new plant and they figure it will take about a year or a year and a half. That does not coincide with what the minister said a
moment ago. There is a discrepancy between these statements, and I submit that a thorough investigation should be made to ascertain what progress is being achieved there. I am sure that the Minister of Munitions and Supply would be one of the first men to put his hand to that task and to say, "We will go ahead with this thing properly," because I have enough confidence in him to know that this would be the stand he would take.
Now may I read, with reference to this plant, something that was said in the Alberta legislature the other day. In the provincial legislature in Edmonton this question was being discussed and the provincial minister of public works, the Hon. Mr. Fallow, made reference to it. This is what he said in regard to the construction of that plant in Athabaska. I take it, as stated by the hon. member who spoke before me, that the provincial minister of public works, holding the position he does, must have a sense of responsibility. He has visited the plant on several occasions; he is minister of public works of Alberta; it is to their credit to see that the work is carried on, and if it is not being properly carried on to the extent that the provincial government thinks it should go, it is to their interest to proceed on their own and to carry out some development in this regard. I make these observations to indicate that the minister of public works of Alberta must have a sense of responsibility, and when he comments upon that development of the Athabaska tar sands, he must have something serious in mind. Well, this is what he said:
The $500,000 which had been appropriated by the dominion government to investigate the possibilities of large-scale production from the oil sands had all been spent in building modern dwellings, dormitories and workshops, sufficient to accommodate a much greater number of people than the plant required. This modern town was equipped with an up-to-date waterworks and sewage system; a modern electric light plant, buildings steam heated, a modern sawmill installed which cut the 400,000 feet of lumber used in the buildings, and not a dollar spent on the construction of a separation plant or to instal a piece of refinery equipment, and we were told that operations were going to be closed down because the money had all been spent.
That bears out the statement which was made by the hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol), who personally visited the ground. If we take the two statements together-and these gentlemen have probably never seen each other-there must be some truth in what has been said when they make the same assertions. Here is' a town employing approximately 155 people, according to the return that was given me; yet it is modem
War Appropriation-Supplies

in almost every sense, with waterworks, electric lights and everything else, $500,000 having been already spent on modern buildings, and yet not one dollar has been spent on refinery equipment or a separation plant. If that is not a colossal waste of public money, and, I would also say, a deliberate attempt at sabotaging that development for years to come, I should like to know what to call it.
The speech goes on:
The stories I got from men who were working on the project made me wonder if the dominion government had borrowed some of the inmates of an insane asylum to handle the work. Some of the men who left the job told me they could stand it no longer. They thought everybody was crazy. They told me that trenches were dug and forms were put in to run the concrete foundations and the next day a gang of men would start digging other trenches close by and throw the earth into the hole they had dug the day before. Buildings were started and then torn down or moved to temporary foundations and finally they started putting the buildings on skids instead of foundations so that they could move them around with tractors to suit everybody's convenience. Trenches were dug for sewer and waterlines and the waterlines laid and backfilled without testing pipes for leaks. Later, when the water was turned on, the lines leaked so badly that the trenches had to be reopened and the lines taken up.
Then he states that this was done in the winter when the ground was frozen. The evidence is quite clear that there was a colossal waste of public money and it does warrant investigation.
Later on he says:
I want to assure you, Mr. Speaker, that on the two occasions when I visited this plant there was certainly no evidence of a shortage of manpower or machinery.
Apparently, therefore, that excuse could not be given, that there was a shortage of manpower, or machinery, which was the excuse given in the return brought down to me.
There was enough machinery and man-power to handle half a dozen plants of this size, most of which was idle.
I am quoting all this so that the committee will see that there must be some grounds for the statement in regard to the laxity of the dominion government in developing these sands.
Farther on in his speech he had this to say:
No construction work was done that it was not changed at least once. Changes three to five times were not uncommon. It will perhaps be conservative to say twenty-five per cent of the workmen were continuously engaged in tearing down some of what the other seventy-five per cent had put up.
This condition continued until the end of January and at that time no -work whatever, either on the separation plant or refinery had been done since the General Engineering Company took over. During the last few daj's of

January some men were started on the boiler-room building, but at the end of this month no more than one per cent of the work had been done there-this in spite of the following facts. . . .
Then he goes on and reports a lot of facts.
I received a return to a motion of mine in which I asked the following questions:
Has the pilot plant been started yet? If so, how long before it will be completed?
The answer to the first part of the question is: "Yes." The pilot plant has been started; but according to the speech which Mr. Fallow made in the legislature just a boiler-room had been started and very little work was done on that. The answer given here is correct although it may be misleading. Then the following answer is given to the second part of the question dealing with the time in which the plant will be completed:
. . . date of completion depends on delivery of equipment and materials, and availability of labour.
According to the minister of public works of Alberta who visited that plant on two different occasions, there was no shortage of manpower and there was no shortage of equipment, because the Abasand company at least had been producing-I am. now speaking from memory.-about four hundred barrels of crude oil a day. Surely we can do as good as that. The amazing thing is that although we spent thirty years in investigating these tar sands, yet to-day we have no information, that would lead to the construction of a large commercial plant. We find to-day these things are continually being deferred as time goes on, The evidence produced indicates clearly to me that something drastic should be done in this connection.
In the course of my remarks I said that on one occasion the research department had spent $500,000. I should like to read a little of the evidence to show what a disgraceful performance the whole thing has been. Mr. Ells appeared as a witness before the reconstruction and reestablishment committee. Mr. Ells is the engineer in the fuels division of the Department of Mines and Resources. He was asked this question:
Is it not true that some years ago two carloads of these tar sands were sent over to England for experimental purposes?
I wish to read what he said to show how evasive his evidence was. Some investigation should be made into this matter. On page 964 of the evidence contained in the minutes of proceedings and evidence No. 33, the hon. member for Davenport asked the following question:
May I ask Doctor Ells one further question; Doctor, I said this morning that I had read sometime prior to 1936 or 1935 that a con-

War Appropriation-Supplies
siderable quantity of tar sands had been sent to England for testing under the Freeman process of extraction of oil from the sand; have you ever heard of that; or, have you any recollection in regard to that having been done?
Doctor Ells: 1 have heard of it but I think the results have not been given out.
He does not know for sure. He says: "I have heard of it." That is a vague recollection. Mind you, two carloads of Athabaska tar sands were sent clear to England at an expense of $500,000, and Mr. Ells, who was giving evidence said:
I have heard of it but I think the results have not been given out.
He was then further questioned about this matter and on the next page he says:
No, I have not any definite recollection.
That is, he has no definite recollection of its having been sent to England. I think I should go back to the next page and read the question of the hon. member for Davenport, which was as follows:
Have you any recollection of the sand having been sent to England?
The answer is:
No, I have not any definite recollection.
If anybody sent two carloads of Athabaska tar sands over to England at an expense of- with the investigation which was carried out- $500,000, there is something wrong with his memory if he does not even remember it. His answer goes on:
I do recall that some years before that there were two carloads went over to England, to Cardiff, Wales, and a rather large amount of money spent in testing a method-I think about $500,000.
Mr. MacNicol: It was sent over to Cardiff?
Doctor Ells:	Yes, two carloads; I shipped
them myself.
Mr. MacNicol: What was the process used?
Doctor Ells: It was a secret process; it was so secret that the work was all done under the surveillance of the metropolitan police and nobody was allowed near the plant. They did not give anything out. The two men working on it, as I recall, died, and nothing was given out.
Just a few moments before that he said he did not remember the tar-sand being sent to England. There is something fishy about this, Mr. Chairman. You cannot tell me that that would not be a vivid recollection in one's mind. If that is the kind of men we have developing or carrying on the investigation work in Athabaska tar sands, heaven help us if we have to depend upon them for our war supplies. I am not trying to insinuate that Mr. Ells is not a reliable man, because I have read some of the articles he has written on the tar sands and they are excellent and give a glowing picture of the prospects in that
area. But why does he come before a committee, such as the reconstruction and reestablishment committee, and throw cold water on the whole thing? There is something sinister behind it.
The Minister of Munitions and Supply wrote to the government of Alberta and said that it is an urgent matter. We are told it is a necessity. We even have to ration gasoline to the people. I could say something about that, which I shall do some day. I have spoken on that question before in the house. I have some personal knowledge in that regard, but I do not intend to bring it up just now. Is it any wonder that the provincial government passed a resolution the other day in the Alberta legislature? I shall read the resolution. On page 4 of No. 22 votes and proceedings of the legislative assembly of the province of Alberta, the following appears:
Whereas, on June 23, 1912, the dominion government advised the Alberta government that "war requirements for petroleum are so urgent that the dominion government wish to explore the possibilities for a large-scale development in the vicinity of the Abasand operation," and requested the cooperation of the Alberta government in withholding the granting of any more crown leases until a decision can be reached as to whether a large-scale development is warranted; and
Whereas, large sums of money have been appropriated . . .


Clarence Decatur Howe: On a point of order, is it permissible to read the proceedings of a provincial legislature in this committee?


Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: Yes.


Mr. COLDWELL:: I think so.


Charles Edward Johnston: It is merely a statement of something that is already passed. It is in the press, Mr. Chairman, and is public information.


Mr.   CHAIRMAN@: If it is not derogatory to the activities of the House of Commons I believe it may be read.


Charles Edward Johnston: I shall
continue:
Whereas, large sums of money have been appropriated by the dominion government and spent on the construction of fully modern dwellings, dormitories, workshops, construction machinery, etc., far in excess of reasonable requirements, but no plant has yet been erected and no actual steps have been taken to demonstrate the possibilities for a large-scale development of the Athabaska oil sands.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Chairman, I say that this is definitely derogatory to this House of Commons, and I ask for your ruling.


Charles Edward Johnston: Where is the point of order?
War Appropriation-Supplies


Clarence Decatur Howe: The hon. member is reading a statement made in the provincial legislature which I think is derogatory to this House of Commons.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: While I believe it is not in order to read from a previous debate in the House of Commons during the present session, after all the document being quoted by the hon. member is a public document dealing with what took place in a provincial legislature, and I think it may be quoted.


Charles Edward Johnston: I understand that it becomes a public document when I read it, and I am quite prepared to ;able it when I am through.


Lionel Chevrier: The point the minister was making is that any document which is derogatory or which attempts to attack anything done by a department of government should not be read in the House of Commons. It was on that point that the minister rose, and I do not think a statement to that effect should be read in this chamber.
Mr. GRA\ DON: On the point of order, I think the minister and his parliamentary assistant are confusing a reflection on parliament with a reflection on the government, and the two are entirely different. My understanding of the remarks of the hon. member is that this resolution has already appeared in a large section of the press of Canada.


Lionel Chevrier: The hon. member is
reading from a statement made in the Alberta legislature.


Gordon Graydon: Surely if the press of
Canada have a right to report it, there is nothing to hinder anyone from reading it in this House of Commons. I think we are carrying this matter of "not in the public interest" a little far if we stretch it to cover this point. As far as this party is concerned, Mr, Chairman, I am going to ask you to rule in favour of the hon. member who has been reading the document, because I do not see a question of privilege there.


Major James William Coldwell: This resolution is published in the votes and proceedings of a provincial legislature. It is a resolution of the legislature, which expresses the point of view of a provincial government. If it is critical of the federal government that is not to say it is critical of or derogatory to this parliament as a whole.


Gordon Graydon: It might even reflect the views of a majority in this house.


Major James William Coldwell: That is conceivable,
given time, but I am not going to discuss that. Surely a resolution passed in a provincial 
legislature, dealing with intergovernmental matters, may be read in this house, particularly since it is part of the public records of that province, which has appeared in the press and is included in the votes and proceedings of that legislature. I think the minister and his parliamentary assistant are taking a wrong view of this.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Then I would be very much interested if my hon. friend could carry on and explain to me what item of the estimates is now being discussed. The entire evening has been spent in discussing a matter which does not come in any way under the Department of Munitions and Supply, and which does not involve one dollar appropriated to this department. I suggest that you have given sufficient latitude, Mr. Chairman, and I should like a ruling on that point.


Charles Edward Johnston: That is an entirely different question.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: In setting forth the
position of the Chair earlier in the evening I stated that probably I was at fault in this matter when I allowed the hon. member for Davenport to go on with his speech, in view of the objection taken by the Minister of Munitions and Supply that the matter came under the Department of Mines and Resources. Later, however, when I attempted to express a ruling on the point, I believe unanimous consent was given to the hon. member for Bow River to continue with his remarks. I have already given my ruling on the point of order raised in connection with the reading of a resolution passed by the Alberta legislature. I believe it is in order as long as no reflection is cast upon the procedure or activities of the House of Commons.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Before the
hon. member goes on I think we should get one point of procedure straight. Several times a question has been raised as to whether or not the hon. member was in order in continuing this discussion. May I point out that we are discussing the war appropriation resolution, which relates to the defence of this country and to national security. The estimates now before the committee are presented in this way purely by arrangement and for the convenience of the committee. As far as the rules of this house are concerned there is nothing to prevent any hon. member from conducting a discussion on the army, or on naval affairs, or on the air force; no one can stop him. These items are before us in this way purely for our convenience. I am quite in agreement that we should keep to the arrangement we have made; otherwise the

War Appropriation-Supplies
discussion would wander all over the place. However, no one can rule the hon. member out of order for discussing anything relating to the prosecution of the war or the welfare of the country.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: We are dealing with the war appropriation resolution which, as the hon. member has stated, would permit a very wide discussion to be carried on. The Minister of Munitions and Supply, however, has stated to the committee definitely that the matter of the Alberta tar sands under discussion this evening does not come under his department, so that I suggest that we should allow the hon. member for Bow River to go on and that will be the end of that discussion. Many times we are accused by hon. members, and even in the press, of having a great deal of repetition in this chamber. I am sure hon. members can readily see that when the estimates of the Department of Mines and Resources are before the committee we are likely to have repeated what we have heard so far this evening. That is the position as I see it.


Mr. FAIR:: I should like to point out that apparently we have wasted about thirty years, as far as this matter is concerned, under the Department of Mines and Resources. It is about time that jurisdiction was given to another department, preferably Munitions and Supply, so that we may make some headway. Would that be in order?


Charles Edward Johnston: The resolution continues:
Whereas, this apparent waste of public funds and the lamentable loss of valuable time in tearing down the Abasand plant, constructing dwellings, dormitories and workshops and in other activities which are only incidental to the demonstration of an economic process for the commercial extraction of oil products has created grave fears and misgivings in the minds of the public that the whole development of the Athabaska oil sands is being systematically sabotaged; now, therefore,
Be it resolved, that this legislature petition the dominion government to set up immediately a royal commission of inquiry, with specific instructions to investigate all activities on and in connection with the Abasand oil properties since June 23, 1942, to ascertain why, despite the large sums of public funds which have been spent, no plant has been erected or equipment installed and no actual experimental work carried on to determine the possibilities of extracting oil products in commercial quantities from the Athabaska oil sands.
It might be of interest to note further that when the vote was taken on this resolution all the Liberals and Conservatives, who in Alberta are known as independents, voted against any inquiry to find out why this situation existed in Athabaska. They were solidly of the opinion
that the laxity, indifference and jeopardy to our war effort should continue. The votes and proceeedings records their names, as follows:
Messieurs MacLaclilan, Bowlen, Mahaffy, Walker, Martin, Macdonald. Jackson, O'Brien (Dr.), Campbell (Dr.), Tellier, Brown, Laut, Broomfield, McKinnon.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Order. The hon. member has spoken for forty minutes.


Charles Edward Johnston: Since I have been interrupted so often-


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I have allowed six minutes for interruptions.


Mr. DECHENE:: As the member for Athabaska I desire to voice a most strenuous protest against the proceedings to-night. I have not been in a position to take part in this debate because my documents were not available. This debate has been allowed to proceed entirely out of order and I protest as strongly and strenuously as I can.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: That is rather a reflection upon the Chair. I do not know whether the hon. member was in the committee when I made the ruling, but I took the Minister of Munitions and Supply and the committee into my confidence before I gave the ruling. When the minister made his presentation this afternoon, tar sands were mentioned, so that it was rather hard for the Chair to rule against this debate, and the minister felt the same way on that subject.


Mr. BLACKMORE:: In my judgment you are entirely in order.


Grote Stirling: Mr. Chairman, I do not propose to carry on the discussion on tar sands. In his lengthy address this afternoon the minister made reference to various forms of fuel which are made use of in carrying out our war effort. He referred to coal, wood, gas and oil, and I wish to ask him to be good enough to inform the committee as to what developments have taken place in connection with the processing of coal at the mine. Experiments have been going on in this country, and it is quite evident that considerable benefit would be derived from a more economical use of the coal we have. I am given to understand that in the United Kingdom about one-sixth of the coal mined is put through a process immediately which produces not only fuel but various by-products. Before the war a great deal of work was done in Germany, both in an experimental and in a commercial way, with regard to brown coal. It is the belief of many to-day that the German scientists have solved the question that baffled scientists in past years and are
War Appropriation-Supplies

able to produce lubricating as well as fuel oil. We believe that in Russia the coal mined at several fields is processed at the mine to produce a gas which can be carried to other parts of the country.
Canada is a country of great spaces; our coal is mined at places far distant from the centres of population, and for purposes of economy it may become necessary to produce the fuel and the by-products at the mine. What we do now is to mine the coal and spend tens of thousands of dollars in carrying it elsewhere where it is burned most wastefully. It is computed that something like two-thirds of its intrinsic value goes up the chimney to the detriment of our health and property. If we could produce fuel and by-products at the mine we could provide employment for men and could make a more economical use of this natural resource. This would prove of great benefit to the transportation companies which would carry goods to the communities in the mining areas and then carry out the products of the mines. I have no doubt that in considering fuel matters the minister has given due thought to the experiments which have been going on, and I should like him to give us the benefit of his opinion as to the prospect of using coal in this more economical fashion.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I phould like time to examine the statements and obtain the opinions of my experts. I shall try to make a statement on this matter before the debate ends.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I
should like to ask a few questions, but first I wish to offer a suggestion to the Minister of Munitions and Supply. He has under his control many plants employing thousands of workers. A few weeks ago most of these workers were handed income tax forms to be returned by April 30. The majority of these workers are very much troubled at the present time. While these income tax forms are supposed to be easy to make out, the fact is that they are extremely difficult. I understand that in each of these plants there is a munitions and supply office, and I suggest to the minister that he arrange to have one, two or three people placed at the service of the workers to assist in making out their income tax forms. I would suggest also that the Minister of Munitions and Supply take up with the Minister of National Revenue, who unfortunately is not present this evening, to see if these workers-many of these plants are many miles from an income tax office- cannot be permitted to pay their income taxes at offices in the plants in which they
IMr. Stirling.]
work. In many instances these workers thought all their income tax had been deducted for 1943 and they are now finding that they have paid only half the tax. I feel, and I imagine the minister may feel the same way, that it would assist in keeping up the morale in these plants if this suggestion were carried out.
During the last year something else has cropped up which has not helped the morale of our workers. When many of these men go home at nights they are unable to have the benefit of their radios, because at the present time it is almost impossible to buy new radio tubes. One of the many controls exercised by the minister is in connection with the manufacture of radio tubes and his department issues releases to these manufacturers. I suggest that he see to it that proper materials are released so that tubes may be manufactured and these workers again given the benefit of their radios. This matter may rightly belong to another department, but I have talked to the minister and I know he is anxious to have these workers in the best of spirits. I think this would help considerably.
I have a few questions to ask on the first item. I should like to know just what plants have stopped work, where they are situated, and what munitions they were making. When a contract is given for the making of a boat or something of that kind, are wages allowed to be bulked instead of details being given to the minister's department? I should also like to know what large machines are rented by the minister's department for his different plants, such as travelling cranes and large machines for handling work in the plant.
There have been complaints that machine tools have been left idle in plants for many months and the workers, of course, feel that these machine tools should be working on something. I appreciate the fact that the munitions or guns these machine tools were turning out have perhaps reached their production peak for the present, but I was wondering whether there was not something that these id-le machines could be put to work on.
The minister mentioned this afternoon that sales were being made to the United States. Would he tell us just what the United States are buying from us at the present time and have been during the past year, and to what amount? Could the minister also tell us if there is any chance of the Nobel plant being opened again, and just why was that plant closed?
There is another matter I will mention now since the minister in his speech mentioned wartime housing and staff houses. I bring the

War Appropriation-Supplies
question up now because in Peterborough, Ontario, in the riding I represent, I know one staff house which has so few persons in it that I feel it could be put to better use if it- were turned into a hospital for the army, the navy or the air force, or for them all, instead of being left as a staff house. It is well equipped, has large dining-rooms, good bathrooms and every facility, and with very little trouble ramps could be made to take the place of the few steps leading up to the different floors, in order that the chairs and beds could be moved from floor to floor easily. Will the minister answer now or later?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I shall attempt to answer
now. So far as income tax goes, I have to have the help of the Minister of National Revenue to make out mine, so that I am afraid I would not be of much help to the man in Peterborough in making out his income tax return. But I will call the attention of my colleague the Minister of National Revenue to the remarks of my hon. friend.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Perhaps you
help the Minister of National Revenue to make his out? '


Gordon Knapman Fraser: But
does not the minister think it is a good idea?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think it would be a great
idea-wonderful.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: It is past a laughing matter with the worker. I know that some of these workers are simply at their wits' end as toi what they can do. On top of that, they have to go to the post office and get a money order to send their money in. They are put to great expense in order to look after something I really believe the government should do. In order to carry on his department the Minister of Munitions and Supply must -have the income tax from these workers; that is where the minister comes in; he needs the money to carry on his department, and I feel that he should do everything possible for these workers.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am not disagreeing with my hon. friend in the least. I think every man should have expert advice in making out his income tax. No one needs it more than I do, and no one direads the job more than I do, so that I feel for the workers. I will take the matter up with the Minister of National Revenue.
As to radio tubes, the difficulty is not materials but manufacturing capacity. There is nothing more urgently required for war purposes than radio tubes, and there is no field in which we have made a greater attempt
to expand capacity. We have made a certain number of radio tubes that have gone to the retail trade. They have not been too well distributed, and we are checking on that. To-day we are making about what we used to make in pre-war years, and we feel that we are going a long way in invading war capacity in doing that. It has been suggested recently that we should have distribution of radio tubes under control, and we may make them a controlled item shortly. That is usually effective in straightening out distribution troubles. I assure my hon. friend that we are doing the best we can on that item.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: There is a definite black market in radio tubes, and if there were some check on distribution it might help a great deal.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am not sure about the black market, but I do know that distribution is not very satisfactory. It is a tight supply and demand situation.
As to plants that have been closed, I cannot give my hon. friend offhand the plants that have been closed. The only one I can think of at the moment is Nobel, and the reason was that the demand for explosives from Canada dropped sharply. Part of our capacity was stand-by capacity, built at a time when British plants were being bombed very heavily. Later there was a demand for that capacity from the United States. But when the plants in the United States came into production the demand dropped. In order to carry out our production here in three plants with some degree of economy it was necessary to close one, and there were certain reasons why the Nobel plant seemed to be the obvious one to close. My hon. friend asked if there is a chance that it will be needed again. Certainly there is a chance. To-day bombs are dropping in Britain, and if a bomb dropped on a large explosive plant there, Britain would no doubt require extra production from Canada. For that reason it is very difficult to dismantle any plant. We are never sure that it will not be needed again. Part of our capacity was built as stand-by capacity, and we must use it as such until the war ends.


Mr. COLD  WELL@: Are we importing at the present time any explosives of the type we made at Nobel?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Mr. COLD  WELL@: Not propellents?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We did for a short time. We had a T.N.T. line that was being run at a very small capacity; we wanted to convert

War Appropriation-Supplies
that line to something else, and for a time we did import a small amount of T.N.T. It was a dropping requirement. We did it to tide us over a temporary situation.


Mr. HATFIELD:: Have all the men who were employed at Nobel been given other employment?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Grote Stirling: Has no dismantling been done at Nobel?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We took out a small chemical unit, moved it to Calgary and installed it there. If we again need full capacity at Nobel we could easily move it back. It is one of three duplicate units


Grote Stirling: The premises are now in the hands of caretakers?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.
Did I finish answering the questions of the hon. member for Peterborough West? He said something about the staff house, I believe.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Yes.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That staff house is not operating with occupancy sufficient to warrant keeping it open, and we have offered it to the Department of Pensions and National Health. I know the officers of that department have examined it. I am not just sure what the report was. In any event I quite agree with my hon. friend that under the circumstances we should not keep it open.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I
might add that these staff houses are built in such a way that during the winter months, and especially in the spring, they have to be heated; otherwise the plywood which is inside would warp and the buildings would deteriorate in no time. All of them will have to be kept heated.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Ernest George Hansell: I should like to ask the minister a question, following the question which was asked him last night, with respect to the air training schools which are likely to fall victims to the decision that many of them have to be closed. The minister, replying to a question last evening, said that these schools would not be allowed to depreciate. Perhaps that is not the answer which we were looking for.	'


Clarence Decatur Howe: I said that the runways would not be allowed to deteriorate.


Ernest George Hansell: The minister could put a few watchmen on there and perhaps that would do the trick. But what I would ask the minister -is this. As the basis of my

question, may I remind him that when these air training schools were built and manned by the staff, and were operating, where they were built in small communities, perhaps adjacent to a town or village, the population of those communities increased to the extent in some cases of being nearly doubled. I understand that the government has now in mind putting something else into these schools, so that instead of being run by air personnel they will be applied to some other use. The complaint which begins to come to us is this. Many people have invested money, perhaps in small businesses, perhaps in remodelling their homes, because these air schools have acute housing difficulties; sometimes town councils have asked the residents to do all they could to accommodate the additional people coming in. After having run for, perhaps, not more than three years, some of these schools are to be closed, and the local town is simply going back to the position it was in before the war. In some cases people will lose money on their investments. I realize, of course, that if the war were to end to-morrow, that would be the end of the schools, and the inevitable will come, but some of us. have received a good many communications from these communities-from individuals, from boards of trade and other organizations

with respect to this matter. Would the minister amplify his answer of last evening and tell us if the government has any plan whereby the schools can be operated in some other way, so that these communities will not be set back commercially, financially and otherwise.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The disposal of the fields will be handled in this way. In due course they will be declared surplus to Royal Canadian Air Force requirements. I may say that up to this time none has been so declared. When they are, they will pass to the war assets disposal committee. The committee will inquire of all government departments whether any department has use for any portion of the assets of that field. The Department of Transport will take over the field itself and such buildings as it believes to be useful for an airport to meet civil aviation requirements. The other buildings, as I have said, will be offered to other departments. If there are no claimants they will pass to the War Assets Corporation, which will dispose of them in a manner which will bring .about the greatest good to the greatest number; a decision that will require very careful study.
That, I understand, is the procedure. I think that people in the towns concerned must have realized that the school was there for a longer or shorter period depending upon the requirements of the air training programme. It

War Appropriation-Supplies
would have been hardly reasonable to suppose that so tremendous a programme would go on indefinitely. Naturally, pilots have to be trained before they can be used, and logically the training would not continue to the end of the war. There comes a time when all reasonable requirements for number of pilots have been met. That is about the best answer I can give my hon. friend.


John George Diefenbaker: Is the minister now in a position to answer the several questions I asked him, in particular with regard to the plan for the liquidation of war-time industry or its translation into civilian production? What is the plan the minister has in mind in that regard? Several months ago, I think it was last November, an article appeared in the press to the effect that the government had decided to free as far as possible, within the limitations of the safety of the state, many unnecessary economic controls which had prevailed since the outbreak of war. Demobilization of a war industry to change from wartime into civilian industry, to the end that civilian wants may be satisfied without detriment to the war effort, and also the liquid? -tion of unnecessary war-time controls, are matters within the knowledge of the minister and in respect of which I asked certain questions this evening.


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend has given me a good deal of territory to cover. He seems to press me for plans. He pressed me very hard for the government's plan for ' civil aviation. I gave it to him last Friday, and apparently he does not know what to do with it now he has it. I believe that if he will think back he will realize that, since this parliament opened, we have given out our plans to a considerable extent. I think that in the matter of planning for post-war development we have announced our plans step by step in advance of any other country. My hon. friend referred to the Baruch report on the disposal of surplus war assets. I might point out that our plan of disposal was announced some months before that plan came out. As far as disposal goes, we are almost exactly parallel with the proposals of the Baruch report. I would point out, however, that our plan is in operation, while the other at the moment is only a plan although the personnel has been appointed in the last two or three weeks.


John George Diefenbaker: Will the minister explain the plan that is in operation? That is what we want to know. What is the plan?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The plan has been explained. There will be legislation covering it. At the moment it is in operation under the War
Measures Act and it was set up before parliament met. We are getting all the experience we can to enable us to bring in the best bill possible, and before parliament rises there will be a bill to cover the disposal situation.
The procedure is this. There are two bodies. One is the Crown Assets Disposal Committee. That committee is made up of representatives of all war services and two or three departs ments outside that which have special interest in disposal problems, and it also includes a representative of labour, a representative of the farming industry and a representative of householders. Any item that is declared surplus to government requirements first goes before the committee. It is really a policy committee, or at least it is a committee to advise the minister and the government on policy in connection with various items. If an item declared surplus by one department can be useful to another department, that fact is noted in the report to the minister. In any event, the committee recommends a procedure. If it recommends that the item should be disposed of, it is so reported to the government, and the government by order in council turns the item over to the War Assets Corporation for disposal. The policy of disposal as advised by the committee is passed on to the War Assets Corporation as an instruction. The War Assets Corporation then studies the disposal of the item in the best interests of the greatest number of people. If it is an item of common purchase it will be put into retail channels in such a way that every part of the country will have a fair opportunity of purchasing the article.
I might point out that at this stage the items being dealt with by the corporation are not items of that class. They are usually surplus materials left from the cancellation of a contract, or they may be obsolete aeroplanes or an overage battleship. The disposal is studied by experts who make up the board of directors of the War Assets Corporation, and the War Assets Corporation may find that it is possible to dispose of the article in one of a number of ways. The company advises the government of the price that can be obtained, and the recommendation is either accepted by the government and the sale made, or it is rejected and the corporation is asked to find some other means of disposal.
That, I think, is a brief outline of the work of the committee and the company. It has taken some time to put the various items through the procedure. Great care is taken, both by the committee and by the corporation, in working out its procedure. In fact, no sale has finally been completed by the corporation at this date. It will be the policy of the corporation to make frequent reports. Parliament
War Appropriation-Supplies

will be kept well advised, and I can assure my hon. friend, that it is the purpose of this plan to work inside the goldfish bowl, as recommended by the Baruch report.


Mr. GILLIS:: Mr. Chairman-


Clarence Decatur Howe: Does my hon. friend mind if I finish with this list of questions first?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: How do you advertise that you have something for sale?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not advertise that I have anything for sale. It is the work of the corporation, and the corporation has sold nothing yet. Therefore let us leave the corporation to work until it has actually made some sales and we shall then report to the house.
I am answering now the question asked by the hon. member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker). About the plan for the demobilization of economic controls, which is rather an elaborate way of saying, how do you get rid of controls once you have them, if my hon. friend notices the control orders advertised from week to week he will find that we are dropping them every week. The purpose of the control is to take charge of an article in short supply and increase supply to meet needs, or, failing that, to distribute the article to meet war needs as the first priority and civilian needs after war needs have been filled. That is the purpose of the control and it is the only purpose.
The only basis of any control in the department is to regulate supply. When the article gets in ample supply the control is lifted. We have lifted a great number of controls in the past three or four months. We have taken the control off practically all steel items and many of the metals. I believe there are only three metals to-day that are controlled. I could go through a long list of items, where controls have been relaxed to some extent. We are not in sufficient supply to be able to remove all of them, but they are coming off as fast as the supply situation will allow. Supply is the only thing that receives consideration in the question whether an article shall be controlled or not, and when the supply situation is easy we take off the control.


Mr. BROOKS:: Who comprise the War
Assets Corporation?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Just a moment. The question was asked, what does the government intend to do with the air schools? I have covered that. My hon. friend spoke of obsolete armoured vehicles overseas. I am not aware of any; none has been declared surplus to us. My hon. friend will understand that we are the contractors for the armed services. If the 
armed services requisition for a certain item we furnish that item; then it passes into the hands of the service, and it is theirs until it is declared surplus. If they declare it surplus it passes back to the department through the disposal branch. I may say that no items overseas have passed back to us, and therefore I assume that none is surplus.


John George Diefenbaker: That does not exactly cover the situation. One frequently hears criticism of the fact that piled up along the right of way of the railways are large amounts of supplies.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I was referring to my hon. friend's remarks about overseas.


John George Diefenbaker: I did not refer to overseas.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I thought the hon. member did.


John George Diefenbaker: No.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I might explain about the piles along the railways. Materials such as motor trucks and some other items move overseas in very large volume, and they move from a number of ports. For example, there may be coming into New York boats that have considerable surplus space which may be made available for Canadian equipment. They may come to Philadelphia or Baltimore, or on the Canadian side they may come to Halifax, or they may come to Saint John, or in the summer time they may come to one of the ports on the St. Lawrence river. To take advantage of that space-and space is very difficult to come by, and all of those concerned with shipping are very anxious that no boat shall go out without a full load-it is necessary to have a stock-pile of material. Experience has shown that that stock-pile should cover six weeks' output of the store. If it gets down to a month we are certain that boats will go without a full load; therefore we try to keep not less than one month's supply and not more than two months' supply, averaging, as I say, about six weeks' supply in locations where it is readily available for shipment to any one of a number of ports. These stock-piles go up and down. There was a time several months ago when we had practically no stock-piles. The boat situation was easy and we cleaned out practically everything that we had. But ordinarily goods move out of stock-piles and other goods move into stock-piles.
My hon. friend has asked me what goods were in stock-piles three years and what goods were there two years. I can assure him that stock-piles are nbt operated in that way. The first goods in are the first goods out; and while the stock-pile may be there larger or

War Appropriation-Supplies
smaller as he passes through from time to time, the items in that stock-pile are not the items that he saw there five or six months ago. They may look the same externally, because all motorcars are boxed in pretty much the same way and all tires and wheels for motorcars look alike. However, I can assure him that these stock-piles are carefully operated by the controller of transport and his staff; every item in them is listed, and care is taken to see that no items in the stock-piles remain there for any considerable period. That is a necessary feature of the transport of munitions overseas. It is carefully operated. I can asure my hon. friend that the spoilage is surprisingly small. I do not think it is any more than the spoilage that takes place in handling vehicles at any point. Of course, there is a certain amount in loading at the seaboard, and there is a certain amount of spoilage in landing at the other end. But I know something about the spoilage of materials in dumps because these bills come back to the department. I can assure my hon,. friend that they are very much smaller than I anticipated they would be when it was found that it was necessary to have recourse to stock-piles in order to take care of the shipping situation. Does that finish the question?


John George Diefenbaker: I asked the minister about two types of material, the quads and the Heath Robinson lorries.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I can assure my hon. friend that everything that has been furnished has been used so far as I know; at least, we have had no rejections. I do not recall the two types. We make only one type of lorry that we call a lorry. It is made by the Chrysler Corporation, and all I can say is that we are making them and the army seems to be accepting them. They are going overseas. That is all I can tell him about that. I do not recall the quad vehicles, but I shall be glad to look the matter up and see if we are making anything in that connection.


Agar Rodney Adamson: The minister mentioned spoilage. Has he any idea of the percentage of the spoilage? What articles are spoiled more than others?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is not exactly spoilage. It does not spoil. If you drop a box on one corner when you are loading you are likely to spoil the box.


Agar Rodney Adamson: That is damage in transit. When he spoke of spoilage I thought he had in mind articles that are destroyed by weathering in those dumps.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, none of that, not while it is in our possession. It passes out of our possession at the seaport. I do not know what happens after that. We have had no claims for spoilage of that kind. We have had the odd breakage, of course, but very little of that.


John George Diefenbaker: In conclusion, I wish to thank the minister for his explanation of the activities of the Crown Assets Corporation. He has told the committee and the country that the activities of this corporation will be open to parliament. Does he give parliament the assurance that the members of the house will be given such information as they ask in respect of the activities of the corporation regarding the disposal of surpluses or any other disposal that they may make? That is the one point, Mr. Chairman, that I make in connection withi the adoption of the fishbowl principle; that parliament shall have the right to the information. That is of the essence of the whole thing. What I am trying to secure from the minister-and he has been very frank in his explanations-is this: Is parliament to receive the information of the activities of this corporation once it begins to function, or is it to be denied that information?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The present order in council provides that frequent reports shall be made to parliament, and they will be detailed reports. The hon. gentleman asks if members of parliament will be permitted to come in and interfere with the transactions. Of course not.	.


John George Diefenbaker: No, no.


Clarence Decatur Howe: After the transaction is made, the House of Commons will be entitled to full details of the transaction.


Mr. CASTLEDEN:: Is it not true that order in council 9108 provides that the minister shall submit to parliament, within fifteen days of the commencement of the session, a report on the operations of the allocation committee and the company which is set up? [DOT]


Clarence Decatur Howe: I submitted a report in due course and said that no transaction had taken place. My hon. friend will notice I did that. However, legislation will come forward. This is a temporary measure. There was an immediate situation to take care of. Surpluses were arising in munition plants with cancellation of contracts. We wanted to get the procedure going. We are all feeling our way a bit in this, and I had hoped that before this parliament concluded its work we would bring in a bill which we could support with
War Appropriation-Supplies

some experience and perhaps give hon. members a better idea and perhaps have a clearer thought ourselves as to just what the proceeding should be. I think the better place to discuss the disposal company is on the bill that will be introduced into the house this session, instead, of attempting to do so on my estimates. I shall certainly be better briefed at that time.


Clarence Gillis: I have a good deal to say with regard to the war allocations committee.
I am not going to do so now because it is rather late. However, I should like to make this observation for the benefit of the minister. This group are definitely interested in the war allocations committee and the Crown Assets Corporation for perhaps a different reason from that of the hon. member for . Lake Centre.
There is one thing I am convinced of with regard to our post-war plans. If we are to take care of the boys that some of our friends are so vocal in talking about, when they return after the conflict is over, then our postwar plans will largely depend on that corporation as to whether there is to be employment in this country for those who return. In that, connection, when there is time there are some pertinent questions I wish to ask with respect :o the disposal of plants and equipment under *hat set-up.
Progress reported.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned until Thursday at three o'clock p.m., pursuant to special order made Monday, February 21, 1944.
Thursday, March 23, 1944