1944-02-11

[Stage Direction]
A message from His Excellency the Governor General transmitting estimates for the financial year ending March 31, 1945, was presented by Hon. J. L. Ilsley (Minister of Finance), read by Mr. Speaker to the house, and referred to the committee of supply.


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister) moved:: That on and after Monday the 14th February, 1944, to the end of the present session, government ' notices of motions and government orders shall have precedence at every sitting over all other business except introduction of bills, questions by members and notices of motions for the production of papers.


Mr. J. G. DIEFENBAKER (Lake Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to say a word in regard to this motion. I realize it follows the practice that prevails at- Westminster, and that in time of war, in the interests ,of the safety of the state, it is necessary to abrogate the rights of private members. Nevertheless, having regard to the fact that during the entire period of the last war, with the exception of the last four or five months, private

Precedence of Government Orders

members' days were left untouched. I again bring to the attention of the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) and the house the necessity of protecting the rights of private members. It is all very well to say that in Great Britain those rights have been taken away; but in Great Britain private members enjoy rights which are not granted to members of this house. Each day they have an opportunity of questioning the ministers of the crown, and if the ministers give unsatisfactory answers, supplementary questions are allowed. In any event the rights of the private members are protected in that at adjournment time they may again bring the question before the house.
I realize that the all-absorbing and exclusive business and responsibility of members of parliament is the mobilization of the nation for war and the making of plans for peace. As private members we have a great responsibility here. During the last few days statements have been made by members on the government side indicating an attitude in reference to parliament that [DOT] is far from encouraging. Our responsibility as members of parliament in connection with the war is to strengthen the resolution of the people to carry on to the end; to energize our people against the apathy that too often follows military successes; to assure our men and women of the forces that other men, with the necessary equipment, will be available as reinforcements and to see that our manpower is fully mobilized and put to the greatest possible use. For peace the challenge that comes to us as members is to make sure that the fullest possible plans and preparations be made now. I think I speak for the ordinary member of the house, Mr. Speaker, when I say that these aims and ideals for war and peace cannot be achieved if the membership of the house devotes itself, as it has to some extent during the past few days, to partisan discussions, and to turning this house into a cockpit of contending factions, each desirous of preparing for the hustings. Our responsibilities are too serious for that.
I ask the Prime Minister not to take away entirely the rights of private members. I realize that in time of war there must be a diminution in ordinary rights; that matters concerning the war must be given precedence; but we are living in times when parliament is losing its place in the opinion of the country. We are being criticized for wasting time; we are being criticized for abdicating two of our great functions, the deliberative and legislative functions. During this period
of war we have given up many of our privileges; we have put these things in pawn for victory. Private members are just as desirous as the government that we should get on with the business of the country, but we find our rights being whittled down, it is true with the consent of the house, until to-day we are almost in the position of being bound by the answers of the government. We cannot challenge the answers we get to questions asked on the orders of the day; we must accept what we are told. That is why ordinary members of parliament such as myself have reached the point where we feel that our rights should not be further curtailed.
Let me point out that this is not a partisan view I am expressing. The hon. member for Wellington South (M.r. Gladstone) dealt with this matter the other day, and two other hon. members are reported to have made speeches in the city of Hamilton last Saturday in connection with the same matter. I am not expressing a conception peculiar to the opposition. The hon. member for Hamilton East (Mr. Ross), referring to the labour order, is reported to have said:
The government is run by a bureaucracy; the members are nothing and I frankly admit it. If the order had gone through the house, it would have been better prepared.
Then the hon. member for Wentworth (Mr. Corman) as reported to have said:
The members of parliament are dead guinea pigs. I have never been consulted or called in on these matters. I admit there are powers behind the government. ... I think most of them are necessary, but I cannot see why the members should not be consulted. The Minister of Labour is not as bad as you think he is, but his hands are tied by these men who supposedly guide the destinies of this country.
Those are serious allegations against the power and prestige of the House of Commons. We find too that as time goes on the legislative authority of this parliament is being gradually diminished. No one can deny that. Orders in council of all kinds are necessary between sessions of parliament, but I submit that when parliament is sitting no orders in council should be passed at the instance of boards and commissions responsible only indirectly to parliament, carrying on uncontrolled by the representatives of the people, except those necessary for administrative purposes. We have only to look at the labour order to see what bureaucrats can do when they bring into effect legislation concerning the substantive rights of the individual, when there has been no discussion in parliament by the representatives of the people.
I realize the need to get on with the business of the war. Cn. the other hand, Mr. COMMONS
Precedence of Government Orders
Speaker, I say that private members should not be unnecessarily denied the privileges that are theirs. I appreciate the fact that for the first two or three months of the session the rights of private members must be abrogated; but I make the appeal that toward the end of the session at feast one day a -month be set aside as private members day. It may be argued that private members have -that opportunity in other ways, but I point out that -the same argument would apply in peace time. I am not one of those who believe that the importance of parliament is actually lessening. We have stood here together through dark days, but throughout the country the man on the street feels that we do not discharge our responsibilities. That is why I am offering this suggestion to-day, asking the Prime Minister, who has always stood as a proponent of the principles of parliamentary government, to protect the rights of the private members who, occupying no positions of power, nevertheless collectively have in our custody and care the rights of the people.


Mr. M. J. COLDWELL (Rosetown-Biggar):: Mr. Speaker, I whole-heartedly support what has been said by the hon. member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker). Year after year since the war began we have agreed to dispense with private members' days, but few opportunities are given hon. members to bring before this house ideas which they think would be beneficial to the country. If I remember correctly, last year we made a similar appeal to the Prime Minister, suggesting that while the government should get along with the business related to the war in the early part of the session, later on some opportunity should be given to private members to express their vie\jfs, and I-concur in the suggestion made by the hon. member for Lake Centre in that regard. I am particularly anxious that this should be emphasized this year because we are now approaching, we hope-I say, "we hope"- the time when we shall have to be giving closer consideration to the matters which will relate to the end of the war. If that is so, then it seems to me all the more important that private members, apart altogether from the legislation the government has foreshadowed, should be able from their places in the house to bring before parliament suggestions which they think might be beneficial to the country in the period which will follow.
I thoroughly agree with the hon. member for Lake Centre that if we were to study the opportunity given in the British parliament to private members, we would realize that we are more greatly restricted than are the members in what we sometimes call the mother of parliaments. As has already been said, they
IMr. Diefenbaker.]
have their question hour, at which time supplementary questions may be asked and ministers interrogated. They have also a custom which to my mind is an invaluable one, that of bringing matters to the attention of the house on the adjournment. A half hour is allotted to that daily. We have not that procedure here. As a consequence, sometimes hon. members have to take advantage of the motion to go into supply to bring some matter to the attention of the house, a procedure which often leads to long debate. Opportunities of that sort are few and far between, particularly in connection with appropriations made for war purposes, which in reality are a budget in themselves. I would urge the Prime Minister that he endeavour so to arrange the business of the house that, later in the session, when the pressure of war business has been eased somewhat, private members' days may be restored.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker,
the resolution which I moved this afternoon is similar to those which have been approved by the house at each session of this parliament. The arguments made in support of it are, if anything, stronger to-day than they were at any preceding session. I am glad to see, therefore, that the hon. member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker) and the leader of the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation (Mr. Coldwell) both agree that there are reasons why, at least for the beginning of the session, the government should have an opportunity to get on with government measures, and that, if private members are to have an opportunity of bringing forward resolutions of their own, such opportunity should be postponed until later in the session. I think we are agreed on that.
So far as an opportunity being presented later in the session is concerned, I would say the government will be only too pleased to consider granting that opportunity in the light of conditions as they may develop. I did say in the last session that we would be prepared to consider giving private members an opportunity to bring forward resolutions when we got through the main part of our business. But I think all hon. members felt that by the time we reached the month of July they much preferred to have an adjournment of the house than to stay on for the purpose of debating the different motions placed on the order paper by private members.
Reference has -been made to the position at Westminster. I believe a comparison will show that in this house private members have an even greater opportunity of bringing forward

Precedence oj Government Orders
matters of interest to themselves, and of questioning the government, than is afforded at Westminster.
For instance, let us first consider the matter of questions, which has been mentioned by the hon. member for Lake Centre. He said that at Westminster the government can be questioned at considerable length. My understands ing of procedure there is that all questions to be answered by the government must be placed upon the order paper, and that the only questions which may be asked of the administration during the question hour are supplementary questions, growing out of those already asked. We adopt quite a different procedure here, one which gives hon. members a much greater opportunity to ask questions of the government. Almost every day the government is questioned in regard to some matter of which it has had no notice at all, and of which nothing whatsoever has appeared upon the order paper. On some days an hour's time is taken up in questions asked of the ministers. That would not be permitted under the procedure at Westminster. In this way, an opportunity does exist here for private members which does not exist in London. More than that, there is here no restriction upon the introduction of public bills by private members. In London during this time of war that right has been taken away from private members. They have not the right even to introduce a public bill.


Mr. GRAYDON:: Of course our public bills do not get any further than the introduction stage.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Well, they do provide an opportunity to place before the public certain views which private members may wish to put forward. However,, the point I am emphasizing is this, that the government in taking its stand in this matter, and in making a request of the house, is not seeking to deprive private members of their rights. It is seeking to gain a high degree of cooperation on the part of hon. members in getting on with the all-important business, the business pertaining to the war. I am sure the leader of the opposition would recognize that fact if, on Monday next, the house were to begin a debate on some of the private members' motions; he would be the very first to say that the house had put itself in a false light before the public. The people of Canada would ask: Why is our parliament at this stage interesting itself in a number of motions which have been introduced by private members, instead of considering the war appropri-tion bill and other important war matters?
After all, what is the extent of the privation? In the first four weeks of the ordinary session hon. members have certain rights on Wednesdays and, I believe, Mondays. But after that government business has precedence.
In this session two weeks have already gone by, and hon. members have been perfectly free to discuss anything they liked, and have been under no restrictions whatsoever. The fact is that they have been discussing what they liked. We have had half a dozen amendments, apart from everything else, to the ' speech from the throne, and on them almost every subject of immediate concern has been discussed by one member or another. In those discussions there have been no restrictions whatsoever.
I do not like to have the impression develop in the public mind that private members have not full opportunity to discuss subjects in which they may be interested. The speech from the throne, we have been told, is lengthy.
It contains a number of subjects, each of which will come before the house in the course of the session. Hon. members may then address themselves to any of these questions.
Let us consider what would happen if we were to proceed now to a discussion of the private members' motions as they appear upon the order paper. The first of these motions is one which relates to measures for the better protection of all soldiers who serve in His Majesty's forces. There will be ample opportunity to discuss those matters on the war appropriation measure now to be proceeded with.
The next one has to do with the giving of clear titles to all soldier settlers who still hold land under contract with the soldier settlement board. That subject will come up under the estimates connected with soldier settlement, and in other connections.
The next resolution is one relating to reconstruction and rehabilitation; developments ensuring employment and opportunities in connection with transportation, and other matters. We shall be dealing at length with the whole question of reconstruction, and any member who wishes to discuss any particular phase of the subject will have his opportunity at such time.
The next resolution relates to the marketing of western Canada's wheat. My recollection is that in every session parliament has taken a couple of weeks to discuss wheat, and opportunities will come at such a time.
Next we find a resolution supporting feasible irrigation schemes in connection with post-war

Precedence of Government Orders
reconstruction. Such irrigation schemes can be discussed when we are dealing with the reconstruction measure.
Another has to do with the development of mineral resources under government control and operation. That, surely, would come up when we are discussing questions related to the resources of our country, and their development.
Finally there is a resolution relating to the prices of agricultural products. At other sessions we have discussed these matters, and ample opportunity will be given at this session for like discussion. And I suggest further that they will be much more effectively discussed when dealing with government measures on these subjects than they would be if discussed under private members' resolutions.


Gordon Graydon: May I ask a question? I hope the Prime Minister is not building up an argument for use after the war is over because actually what he is saying now about this resolution covering something that may be dealt with in the course of ordinary debate would apply equally to peace time. I hope the Prime Minister is not going to deny to private members in time of peace the opportunity of placing resolutions on the order paper.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I thank my hon. friend for assuming that I will be directing the affairs of government at that time.


Gordon Graydon: I hope the war will be over very soon.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am not at all surprised that my hon. friend should assume what he has, but let me say that the purpose of this resolution relates to war time only. There has been no attempt at any time that I am aware of to restrict private members' rights and privileges during a time of peace, by action similar to that being taken at this particular time because of the war.


Gordon Graydon: The same argument would apply to both peace and war.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The whole thought behind this resolution is that we are at war and that the country is interested in seeing that this parliament concentrates on the prosecution of the war, and regards everything else as secondary until victory has been achieved.
I might say more on this, but the house has passed a similar resolution in previous sessions and hon. members understand its purpose. The hon. member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefen-baker) has repeatedly made remarks, about

parliament losing caste with the people, private members being reduced to ciphers and comments of that kind. I cannot understand why he should go on trying to belittle parliament in the eyes of the public.


Gordon Graydon: Why deliver him a lecture
at this time?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Because he delivered a lecture to me.


John George Diefenbaker: There was no question of any lecture. When the Prime Minister talks about-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


John George Diefenbaker: -our prime purpose I would say to him that what I was talking about was the past two days when the Prime Minister's own supporters were doing anything but trying to win the war in the discussion that took place.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Seventy-five members have spoken during this debate, and I think if my hon. friend looks over the list he will find that there were comparatively few on this side who have participated. I do not want to go into any small discussion, but I have regard for the larger question, namely, the impression that the public may get with respect to parliament. I say that that impression may be created in two ways. First, it can be done by taking note of what actually has taken place in parliament and, second, by the iteration and reiteration of criticisms of its action by members of parliament themselves. I say that the latter kind of thing does no good either to parliament or to the public. My hon. friend has referred to the present session but I do not know of .any session of any parliament in Canada's history where more has been accomplished in the first two weeks after the opening of a session than has been accomplished in this session up to this time. Committees have been appointed, the speech from the throne has been agreed to, the estimates have been tabled, and there has been a full debate. If hon. members would direct the attention of the country to what has been accomplished in this way they would be serving a much better purpose than they are by criticizing adversely.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yesterday the hon. mem-

Extradition Treaty
ber for York-Sunbury (Mr. Hanson) asked a question with respect to the present position of the extradition treaty with the United States, and I promised that I would have a statement to-day. If hon. members are agreeable, it might appear on Hansard, but I shall read it if it is desired.


Gordon Graydon: Is it very long?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No. Would the hon. gentleman like to have it read?


Gordon Graydon: Yes.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: On January 29 of last year I informed the house that the government had received representations from many organizations in Canada which are interested in the marketing of securities and which feared possible adverse effects from the treaty upon legitimate Canadian business. I informed the house that these representations were being given careful study.
Since making the statement to which I have referred, a hearing was held on May 18 last before a special committee of the cabinet consisting of the Minister of Mines and Resources (Mr. Crerar), the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley), the Secretary of State (Mr. McLarty), and the Minister of Justice (Mr. St. Laurent), at which all organizations and individuals interested in the possible effects of the treaty were given an opportunity to make any representations they wished concerning the treaty. Following that hearing, the whole matter was discussed informally with the security commissioners of all the provinces in the course of meetings held in Winnipeg at the end of May. Following these discussions, representatives of the Department of External Affairs and the Department of Justice proceeded to Washington to have further consideration of the position with the United States authorities.
The position at present is that discussions are going on between the Canadian and United States governments as to the nature and extent of any modification which it might be desirable to make in the effect of the treaty in order to ensure that no legitimate business operations are affected by its terms. It is hoped that it will be possible to conclude these discussions very shortly and to have the matter placed before parliament for approval. Such approval will be sought before ratification of the treaty is proceeded with. The treaty was tabled in the house by the Minister of Justice on August 1, 1942.



PRODUCTION OF BEET SUGAR IN CANADA

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. H. BLACKMORE (Lethbridge):: There are three questions I should like to ask the government through the Minister of Finance. First, in view of the danger of a sugar shortage during 1944 and 1945 which is indicated by a recent statement by S. R. Noble, the sugar controller, has the government taken any measures to facilitate the production of beet sugar in Canada during 1944? Second, if so, what measures? Third, if not, why not?


Mr. SPEAKER:: That is the type of question that should be placed upon the order paper.



ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. JAMES SINCLAIR (Vancouver North):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence for Air or his parliamentary assistant. Yesterday the minister inferme'd the house that he is now holding discussions with representatives of the British air ministry on matters affecting the R.A.F. and the R.C.A.F. There is one matter which is of great interest to all Canadian airmen serving overseas, that is, the transfer to the R.C.A.F. of Canadian airmen who enlisted in the R.A.F. either prior to or subsequent to the declaration of war. These men have given heroic service and have added great lustre to Canada's name. I ask the minister or his parliamentary assistant if consideration is being given in these discussions to the transfer of Canadians in the R.A.F. to the R.C.A.F.


Hon. CYRUS MACMILLAN (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of National Defence for Air):: While it is hoped that the minister will not be pressed for piecemeal reports of the conference, since he has undertaken to give a report when it terminates, I can say, now that the matter has been raised in the house many times, that the question of transfer from the R.A.F. to the R.C.A.F. of Canadian nationals is one of the problems being considered. It has been under negotiation for some time. In August last, concrete and detailed proposals were made to the air ministry and the minister hopes that out of the conferences at present being held there will be a final and mutually satisfactory solution.
International Agreements



INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENTS

[Stage Direction]
AUSTRALIA-NEW ZEALAND-REQUEST FOR PRINTING in "votes and proceedings''
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. C. GREEN (Vancouver South):: Mr. Speaker, in the course of yesterday's debate I suggested that the agreement between Australia and New Zealand which was signed about three weeks ago is of sufficient importance to warrant its being printed in Votes and Proceedings, together with the press releases issued by the Minister for External Affairs for Australia and the Prime Minister of New Zealand. Will the Prime Minister tell us to-day whether it will be possible to have that suggestion carried out; and if not in the form suggested, perhaps in some other way so that members of the house may be able to study the agreement and the press releases?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, there will be no difficulty in having the agreement printed in a form which will make it available for hon. members. As to whether it would be advisable to print it as an appendix to Votes and Proceedings, I would have no hesitation about that if my hon. friend would be satisfied with the agreement itself; but if he wishes to have the press releases made by Prime Minister Fraser and Prime Minister Curtin at the time the agreement was signed also printed, I think it would be better to have them printed with the agreement in a separate document, and not to appear in Votes and Proceedings. I say that because I do not think it would be a wise precedent to begin printing press releases in the Votes and Proceedings of this house. I shall undertake to see, if the house is agreeable, that the agreement is printed together with the press releases referred to by my hon. friend, and they will be available as soon as the printing bureau has the work done.


Howard Charles Green: Thank you very much. GASOLINE RATIONING



REQUEST FOR AMENDMENT OF ORDER WITH RESPECT TO THE USE OF TRUCKS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Finance in regard to a recent order of the wartime prices and trade board forbidding the use of trucks for so-called "wasteful or unnecessary purposes". During

the last month or so there have been a number of prosecutions against farmers for attending social or church gatherings in their trucks, even though they have no other means of transport. My question is this: Will consideration be given by the government to having that order altered so as to permit farmers and others who have no other means of conveyance than the truck to attend social or church gatherings without rendering themselves subject to prosecution and conviction?


Mr. D. C. ABBOTT (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, my hon. friend was good enough to give me notice of his question. We have had similar inquiries from a number of other hon. members. As my hon. friend knows, the substance of the order forbids the wasteful and unnecessary use of gasoline used in going to and from social gatherings, recreation meetings and so on. The underlying purpose is to conserve trucks, gasoline, and rubber, which is still in very short supply. When the amending order No. 318 was passed last September, careful consideration was given to whether or not an exception could be made for the owners of trucks who were not the owners of pleasure vehicles. However, the gasoline ration for trucks is more than double, I think, the ration for the ordinary pleasure vehicle, and in addition gasoline and new tires can be obtained, if necessary, for trucks. So that after consideration it was felt that to make such an exception would contravene the fundamental purpose of the order. I shall be glad to bring my hon. friend's question to the attention of the officers of the board, but the information I now have is that it is unlikely that any change will be made in the order at the present time.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk)

Mr. DORION:: How many immigrants entered Canada in each of the years, 1940, 1941, 1942 and 1943?


Mr. CRERAR:: Immigration to Canada during tihe years 1940, 1941, 1942 and 1943
was as follows:
Calendar Year	Number
1940		 11,324
1941		 9,329
1942		 7,576
1943		 8,504

Questions


CANADIAN REPRESENTATION IN PORTUGAL
[Stage Direction]
Mr. DORIO'N:
1.	Has the Canadian government any representative in Portugal at the present time, whose duty it is to look after refugees?
2.	If so, (a) since when; (b) what is his name; (c) what was his former residence; (di) what are his duties?
3.	Is he authorized to issue permits for the entry of refugees into Canada?
4.	If so, how many such permits has he issued' since his appointment?
5.	Are these refugees subject to the provisions of the Immigration Act?
6.	What are the conditions of admission of these refugees?
Mr. CRERAR:: 1.	There is a Canadian immigration officer located at Lisbon, Portugal.
2.	(a) October 24, 1943.	(b) Odilon Cormier. (c) Quebec, P.Q. (d) (i) to examine refugees applying for sanctuary in Canada, (ii) to examine applicants for admission to Canada as immigrants. To grant appropriate immigration visas to those in both classes who pass civil and medical examination.1.	and 2.	3.
United Kingdom:
London-Hudd, Frederic	Yes
Langley, Jas. A.	Yes
Gornall, W. B.	Yes
(Fruit Trade Commissioner)
Liverpool-Bryan, Arthur E.	Yes
Glasgow-Johnson, Gordon B.	Yes
Dublin-McColl, Ernest L.	Yes
United States:
New York-Cole, Douglas S.	Yes
Ausman, Leland H.	Yes
(Assistant Trade Commissioner)
West, Christopher H.	Yes
(Assistant Trade Commissioner)
Washington-Scott, Harry A.	Yes
Allen, Stanley V.	Yes
(Assistant Commercial Attache)
Bull, William F.	Yes
3.	No, the officer grants immigration visas -see answer to No. 2 above.
4. Full information on visas issued not available. No refugees have yet come forward from Portugal, but arrangements are nearing completion for the departure of the first group.
5.	Yes.
6.	Those admissible are family units in good health, of good character entering Canada for the duration of the war, destined to Canadian organizations that have guaranteed reception, maintenance and placement.


CANADIAN TRADE COMMISSIONERS
Mr. DORION:: 1.	In what countries does Canada maintain trade commissioners?
2.	What are the names of such commissioners?
3.	Are they Canadian nationals?
4.	What were their former occupations, and
where did they reside?	_


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: 4.
Editorial staff, Evening Telegram, Toronto; Director, Canadian Bureau of Information, New York.
Engineering Dept. Canadian Pacific Rly.; Purchasing Dept., Nat. Transcontinental Rly., Ottawa; Canadian Representative of National Meter Co., New York.
Chief, Markets Extension Division, Dept, of Agriculture, Ottawa.
Imperial Munitions Board, Ottawa.
Assistant Engineer with Construction Co., China; Assistant on Construction, Ontario Hydro-Electric; Canada Cement Co., Montreal.
McColl Bros., Toronto.
Canadian Explosives Ltd., Montreal; Imperial Munitions Board, Ottawa.
Canadian General Electric, Toronto; T. Eaton Company, Toronto.
Attached to law office in Saskatoon and Vancouver; practised law in' Kimberley and Cranbrook, B.C.
Export division, Ford Motor Co.; Secretary to Medical Director, Soldiers' Civil Reestablishment, Ottawa.
Public Library, Calgary; Brewster Transport Co., Banff; H. H. Cooper (wholesale grocers), Edmonton.
General Motors Corporation, Oshawa.
Questions

1.	and 2.	3.	4.
United States-Concluded
Los Angeles-Monty, Theodore J. Yes Ford Motor Co. of Canada, Montreal- Dept (Acting Trade Commissioner)	Mines, Fisheries and Colonization, Quebec.
Advisory Board on Tariff and Taxation, Ottawa.
Chicago-In charge of chief Clerk of staff, during absence of trade commissioner on special duties in Ottawa.
South Africa:
Johannesburg-Brown, H. Leslie	Yes
Cape Town-Macgillivray, John A.	Yes
Australia:
Melbourne-Palmer, Frederick	Yes
Sydney-Noble, Frederick F.	Yes
(Acting Trade Commissioner)
New Zealand:
Auckland-Birkett, C. Blair	Yes
(Acting Trade Commissioner)
British West Indies:
Port of Spain, Trinidad-Newman,	Yes
Kingston, Jamaica-Fraser, Frank W. Yes India:
Bombay-Sykes, Paul	Yes
Newfoundland:
St. John's-Bower, Bichard P.	Yes
(Acting Trade Commissioner)
Argentina:
Buenos	Aires-Strong, James A.	Yes
Depocas, Jean Charles Yes (Asst. Com. Attache)
McCullough, Wilfred B. Yes (Asst. Commercial Attache)
Brazil:
Rio de	Janeiro-Glass, Lester S.	Yes
Belanger, Maurice	Yes
Canning Company, Vancouver; High School Staff Alberta and British Columbia.
Reporter, Kingston Standard; Editor, Queen's University Journal; Canadian Pacific Rly, Montreal; Telephone Co. Mtl.
Toronto Structural Steel Co., Toronto; Freeman Bros. Halifax; Asst. Editor "Contract Record" & "Electrical News" (Maclean Publications) Toronto.
Teacher, University of California; Clerk with Financial Brokers, Vancouver; Dominion Bureau of Statistics, Ottawa.
Asst. Engineer, Bell Telephone Co., Montreal; Asst. Engineer, Canada Paper Co., Windsor Mills; B. H. Porteous & Co. (Brokers) Montreal.
Advertising and publicity experience in Winnipeg.
Forest Products Laboratories, Montreal; Office Manager, Publishers Paper Co., New York City; Ironsides Board Corpn., Norwich, Conn., Clarke Bros. Paper Mills, Coldbrook, N.B.
Asst, to Editor, "Canada Year Book," Ottawa. (Dominion Bureau of Statistics.)
Manitoba Paper Co., Pine Falls; Hudson's Bay Co., Winnipeg; Northern Office Equipment Co., Winnipeg.
Foreign Exchange Dept., Bank of Montreal.
Highways Dept., Quebec city; Price Bros., Isle Maligne; Anglo-Canadian Pulp & Paper, Quebec.
Department of Agriculture, Fredericton.
Secretary-Treasurer, Municipal District, Edmonton; Assistant Geologist on Survey.
Hugh Carson Company, Ottawa; Technical Translator, Privy Council office, Ottawa.
Chile:
Santiago-Vechsler, M. Jack	Yes	Customs Examining Officer, Montreal; Department of National Revenue, Ottawa.
Colombia:
Bogota-Stewart, Max T.	Yes	Imperial Varnish & Colour Co., Toronto; Harris
(Acting Trade Commissioner)	Abattoir Co., Toronto; General Motors Corporation, Walkerville, Ont.

Questions
1. and 2.	3.	4.Cuba: Havana-Mutter, J. Lindsay	Yes	Employed with the Corporation of Wentworth county.Egypt: Cairo-Grew, Richard	Yes	Empire Cotton Mills, Welland, Ont.Mexico: Mexico City-Bissett, Clifford S	Yes	Business, legal and export sales experience, Edmonton, Alberta.Peru: Lima-Stark, William G.	Yes	With brokerage firm in Toronto; Ontario Department of Education; Bank of Nova Scotia; brokerage firm in London, England; industrial research work with university of Toronto.REFUGEES Mr. DORION:	SELECTIVE SERVICE AND UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE OFFICES IN QUEBEC1.	How many refugees have entered Canada since September 3, 1939?2.	What were their countries of origin?3.	Have all such refugees remained here?4.	Did any of them return to Europe?5.	If so, how many?6.	How many permits have been issued by the Minister of Mines and Resources, or by any person authorized by him, under order in council P.C. 9440, December 10, 1943?


Mr. CRERAR:: 1.	Information not available; the classification "refugee" is not included in immigration statistics. .
2,	3, 4 and 5. See No. 1 above.
6. 932.


ALIENS IN INTERNMENT CAMPS
Mr. LACOMBE:: 1.	Have any aliens been released from internment camps?
2.	If so, how many?
3.	Who are these aliens?
4.	Has Mr. Camillien Houde, former mayor
of Montreal, been released from an internment camp?	[DOT]
5.	If so, when?
6.	If not, will he be released?
Mr. ST. LAURENT:
1.	Yes.
2.	1,577.
3.	Not in the public interest.
4.	No.
5.	Answered by No. 4.
6.	Mr. Camillien Houde had a hearing before an advisory committee on the 28th of May, 1943. The committee recommended continued detention which was approved by the Minister of Justice on June 1, 1943.
In January, 1944, Mr. Camillien Houde was given an opportunity to have a further hearing before the advisory committee, but he refused to have such hearing.


Mr. BERTRAND (Terrebonne):: 1.	How many local selective service and unemployment insurance offices are there in the province of Quebec?
2.	Where are they located?
3.	What is the grade of each of these offices?
4.	Who are the managers of these offices and what is the salary of each?


Mr. MITCHELL:: Roiberval, ungraded-Lefebvre, A., $1,800.
Rouyn, grade 1A-Vacant, $1,200.
Ste. Agathe, ungraded-Larcke, J. A. B.. $1,800.
Ste. Anne de Bellevue, ungraded-Legault, J. A., $1,200.
St. Hyacinthe, grade 1-Forbes, R., $2,100.
St. Jean, grade 1-Lomme, G. R., $2,100.
St. Jerome, grade 1-Sanderson, W. H.,

St. Joseph d'Ahna, ungraded-Tremblay. $1,800.
St. Therese, ungraded-Charbonneau, J. A. $1,500.
Shawinigan Falls, grade 1-Bellefeuille, M. C.,

Sherbrooke, grade 3-Fortier, E. H., $2,700. .
Sorel, grade 1-Cournoyer, E. F., $2,100.
Thetford Mines, grade 1-Gregoire, H. M.,

Three Rivers, grade 3-Prefontaine, J. A., $2,700.
Val d'Or. grade 1A-Sevigny, J. P., $1,800.
Valleyfield, grade 1-Ladouceur, L., $2,100.
Victoriaville, grade 1A-Levreault, J. C.. $1,800.


ECONOMIC STABILIZATION INFORMATION COMMITTEE
Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: 1.	Has the government set up an organization called "Economic Stabilization Information Committee"?
2.	If so, when was such committee constituted1?	[DOT]
3.	What are the duties of such committee?
4.	What are the names of the members of the committee?
5.	What past experience and qualifications has each member of the committee for the position to which he or she has been appointed?
6.	What salary, fee and/or remuneration is being paid to each member of the committee?
7.	What amount has been expended for travelling expenses and/or living allowances for each member of the committee?
8.	What amount has been expended by the committee on all accounts other than those in questions 6 and 7?


Mr. CLAXTON:: 1.	Yes, an interdepartmental committee under that name has been established.
(Mr. Mitchell.]
2.	On December 21, 1943.
3.	To "institute a programme of public information designed to increase the understanding of economic stabilization measures, of the need for these measures in the interests of the nation as a whole, of the benefits of these measures to all groups and individuals, and of the responsibility of all groups and individuals to do their part in assuring their success." And otherwise as set out in the order in council P.C. 9746 constituting the committee.
4.	A. D. Dunton, Chairman: G. C. Andrew,
R.	B. Bryce, S. R. N. Hodgins, V. C. Phelan,
W.	F. Prendergast.
5.	Mr. Dunton at the time of his appointment to the committee was assistant general manager of the wartime information board and has since been appointed general manager. Previously he was editor of the Montreal Standard: Mr. Andrew is a senior officer of the wartime information board; Mr. Bryce is an official of the Department of Finance who has been particularly concerned with the problems of economic stabilization; Mr. Hod-gins is general executive assistant to the deputy minister of agriculture and is concerned with matters of publicity; Mr. Phelan is director of the information and publicity branch of the Department of Labour; Mr. Prendergast is director of information of the wartime prices and trade board.
6.	No salary, fee or other remuneration is being paid to any member of the committee in connection with his work on the committee.
7.	None.
8.	None.


* SALES TAX, FEDERAL AND PROVINCIAL
Mr. ROY:: Can the federal sales tax collected by way of stamps affixed on goods and merchandise be taxed over by a provincial sales tax?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: May I deal with this question orally? It calls for an opinion on a matter of law not connected with any of the business of the house at this time. I think it would be quite inappropriate and, certainly contrary to the practice of the Department of Justice to give opinions on such matters. But I can give the hon. member some factual information. Something that comes pretty near his question was dealt with in a judgment of the privy council which was rendered on July 30 last in the case of the Atlantic Smoke Shops Limited, v. Conlon and the Attorney-General of Canada and others, which is reported in the English Report, Appeal Cases for 1943 at page 550.


Gordon Graydon: Any charge for that?

Questions
Mr. ST. LAURENT: That is not an opinion. That is just a statement as to a fact.


SELECTIVE SERVICE AND UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE OFFICES IN MONTREAL
Mr. BERTRAND (Terrebonne):: Name-Grade-Title-Salary:
L.	Carrier, 1, Clerk, $720.
M.	R. Pauze, 1, Clerk, $780.
A. Maurice, 1, Clerk, $780.
M. Laplante, 1, Clerk, $780.
E.	Lamontagne, 1, Clerk, $720.
A. M. B. Rivest, 1, Clerk, $720
J.	Gauvreau, 1, Clerk. $720.
J. M. Jodoin, 1, Clerk, $780.
R.	Rocheleau, 1, Clerk, $720.
J. R. Leger, 1, Clerk, $780.
A. Lolande, 1, Clerk, $720.
A.	Gingras, 1, Clerk, $720.
C. Ouellette, 1, Clerk, $720.
M. Vernier, 1, Clerk, $720.
C.	Dupuis, 1, Clerk, $720.
P. Noiseaux, 1, Clerk, $780.
T. Gosselin, 1, Clerk, $780.
S.	Beriault, 1, Clerk, $780.
S.	Cardinal, 1, Clerk, $780.
J. Cartier, 1, Clerk, $780.
D.	Dubuc, 1, Clerk, $780.
M. A. Durivage, 1, Clerk, $780.
L.	Harvey, 1, Clerk, $720.
M.	Lalonde, 1, Clerk. $780.
J. Major, 1, Clerk, $780.
M. Melancon, 1, Clerk, $780.
J. Bruneau, 1, Clerk, $780.
E. Memary, 1, Clerk, $720. .
R.	Hudon, 1, Clerk, $780.
H.	Rancourt, 1, Clerk, $780.
B.	Thibault, 1. Clerk, $780.
C.	Tisseur, 1, Clerk, $780.
B.	Turcotte, 1, Clerk, $720.
L.	Chaput, 1, Clerk. $720.
S.	Denis, 1, Clerk, $780.
M.	Vezina, 1, Clerk, $720.
A.	Levesque, 1. Clerk, $720.
M. L. Y. St. Amour, 3, Stenographer, $1,380.
B.	Bartolini, 2, Stenographer, $1,320.
J.	Theriault,	2,	Stenographer,	$1,080.B.	Thibault,	2,	Stenographer.	$1,080.L.	R. Guilbault, 2, Stenographer, $1,080.
A. Gagne, 2, Stenographer, $1,080.
M.	B. G. Laramee, 2, Stenographer, $1,080.
L.	Lapointe, 2, Stenographer, $1,080.
J. Lefebvre, 2. Stenographer, $1,080.
M.	M. E. Y. Gagnon,. 2, Stenographer, $1,080.
H.	Gamier. 2. Stenographer, $1,080.
C.	Forest, 2, Stenographer, $1,080.
R.	Boucher.	2,	Stenographer,	$1,080.C.	Mongeau,	2,	Stenographer,	$1,080.
P. Vinet, 2. Stenographer, $1,080.
F.	Rodier, 2, Stenographer, $1,080.
T.	Denoncourt, 2, Stenographer, $1,080.
E.	Pepin, 2. Stenographer, $1,080.
R.	Roy, 2, Stenographer, $1,080.
F.	Bouchard, 2, Stenographer, $1,080.
' C. Leclerc, 2, Stenographer, $1,080.
X.	Leblanc, 2, Stenographer, $1,080.
G.	Gaudet, 2, Stenographer, $1,080. r. Dumais, 1, Stenographer, $780.
M. St. Andre, 1, Stenographer, $780.
F.	Rivest, 1, Stenographer. $720.
J. E. Boucley, 1, Stenographer, $720.
J. Arsenault, 1, Stenographer, $720.
G.	Savoie, 1, Stenographer, $720.
S.	Biron, 1. Stenographer, $780.
Y.	Larouche. 1, Stenographer, $780.
A.	Martinolli, 1, Stenographer, $720.
L. Sabourin, 1, Stenographer, $720.
B.	Richard. 1. Stenographer. $780.
C.	Leduc, 1, Stenographer. $720.
R. Chaurette, 1, Stenographer, $720.
J. Belair, 2, Typist, $1,080.
L.	Labrecque, 2, Typist, $1,080.
E. Bouthillier, 2, Typist, $1,080.
M.	F. Denis, 2, Typist, $1,080.
T.	Prudhomme, 2, Typist, $1,080.

Name-Grade-Title-Salary:
M. Forget, 1, Typist, $720.
M. A. Laporte, 1, Typist, $720.
C.	Demers, 1, Typist, $780.
M. A. Breton, 1, Typist, $780.
C. Mellish. 1, Teletypist, $1,080.
B.	M. Gilbert, 1, Teletypist, $1,080.
J. Dupuis, Office boy, $600.
A. Loyer, Office boy, $600.
M.	Gincherean, Office girl, $600.
C.	Choquette, Office girl, $600.
A.	Cote, Enforcement officer, $3,600.
R.	Savignac, Enforcement officer, $2,400.
B.	Eudes, Enforcement officer, $2,100.
G.	A. F. Robillard, Enforcement officer, $1,800. P. A. Masson, Special representative, $3,600. J. G. Vandry, Special representative, $3,600. E. A. Dionne, 1, Employment adviser, $3,300. E. R. Cornell, 1, Employment adviser, $3,000. J. P. Cote, 1, Employment adviser, $3,000.
J. G. Heffernan, 1, Employment adviser,

L. V. Hurtubise, 1, Employment adviser, $3,000.
H.	T. Ortiz,.5, Investigator N.S.S., $3,600.
H.	L. Perry, 5, Investigator N.S.S., $3,600.
N.	Desnoyers, 4, Investigator N.S.S., $3,300. J. D. McCallum, 4, Investigator N.S.S., $3,300. E. Lavoie, 4, Investigator N.S.S., $3,300.
S.	Neal, 4, Investigator N.S.S., $3,300.
S. G. Davis, 4, Investigator N.S.S., $3,300.
A. M. Duncan, 4, Investigator N.S.S., $3,300.
H.	E. MacDonald, 3, Investigator N.S.S., $3,000.
E.	M. Sirkett, 3, Investigator N.S.S., $3,000. R. Guevremont, 3, Investigator N.S.S., $3,000.
F.	L. Willard, 3, Investigator N.S.S., $3,000. E. N. Emery, 3, Investigator N.S.S., $3,000.
G.	Laurion, 3, Investigator N.S.S., $3,000.
L. Rousseau, 3, Investigator N.S.S., $3-,000. W. C. O'Malley, 3, Investigator N.S.S., $3,000.
H.	E. St. Onge, 3, Investigator N.S.S., $3,000. E. A. Cartier, 3, Investigator N.S.S., $3,000. R. H. Groulx, 3, Investigator N.S.S., $3,000. L. Dugas, 3, Investigator N.S.S., $3,000.
G.	A. MacDonald, 3, Investigator N.S.S., $3,000.
H.	C. Carson, 3, Investigator N.S.S.. $3,000.
J. Katz, 3, Investigator N.S.S., $3,000.
D.	Urquhart, 3, Investigator N.S.S., $3,000.
E.	C. Lariviere, 3, Investigator N.S.S., $3,000. R. A. Cote, 3, Investigator N.S.S., $3,000.
A. Theriault, 3, Investigator N.S.S., $3,000.
A. Chartier, 3, Investigator N.S.S., $3,000.
J. Tremblay. 3, Investigator N.S.S., $3,000.
A. J. Gelardie, 3, Investigator N.S.S., $3,000. E. H. Auger, 2, Investigator N.S.S., $2,700. A. Peers, 2, Investigator N.S.S., $2,700.
L. J. Beauchemin, 2, Investigator N.S.S $2,700.
E. Rousseau, 2, Investigator N.S.S., $2,700.
M.	E. S. Parker, 2, Investigator N.S.S, $2,700.
J. O. Baillargeon, 2, Investigator N.S.S., $2,700.
L. A. R. Bertie, 2, Investigator N.S.S., $2,700.
R.	Ross, 2. Investigator N.S.S., $2,700.
S.	V. Larkin, 2, Investigator N.S.S., $2,700.
P. M. Sproule, 2. Investigator N.S.S., $2,700. <T. A. Laflamme, 2, Investigator N.S.S., $2,700. W. D. Wilson, 2, Investigator N.S.S., $2,700.
G.	E. Paradis, 2, Investigator N.S.S., $2,700. .T. P. A. Toupin, 2, Investigator N.S.S., $2,700. A. W. Cote, 2, Investigator, N.S.S., $2,700.
P. A. Galarneau, 2, Investigator, N.S.S., $2,700. A. J. Carle, 2, Investigator, N.S.S., $2,700.
H.	Ball, 2, Investigator, N.S.S., $2,700.

Questions
Name-Grade-Title-Salary:
V.	Gamache, 1, Investigator, N.S.S., $2,400.
K.	G. Walters 1, Investigator, N.S.S., $2,400.
W.	W. Beckingham, 1, Investigator, N.S.S., $2,400.
R. J. Hopper, 1, Investigator, N.S.S., $2,400. J. A. Morin, 1, Investigator, N.S.S., $2,400.
J. C. Lacroix, 1, Investigator, N.S.S., $2,400.
E.	Joubert 1, Investigator, N.S.S., $2,400.
J. I. Delisle, 1, Investigator, N.S.S., $2,400.
A. W. Bolduc, 1, Investigator, N.S.S., $2,400. J. G. Vallerand, I, Investigator, N.S.S., $2,400.
L.	Bolduc, 1, Investigator, N.S.S., $2,400.
O.	Beaudoin, 1, Investigator, N.S.S., $2,400.
L.	C. Hayward, 1. Investigator, N.S.S., $2,400.
M.	Faulkner, 1, Investigator, N.S.S., $2,400.
J. L. Lefebvre, 1, Investigator, N.S.S., $2,400. M. Decaire, 1, Investigator, N.S.S., $2,400.
M. Guay, 4, Insurance inspector, $4,000.
W. H. Barker, 3, Insurance inspector, $2,520.
M.	O. J. Dion, 3, Insurance inspector, $2,520.
R.	H. Sims, 3, Insurance inspector, $2,520.
N.	G. Lamarre, 3, Insurance inspector, $2,520.
T.	M. Holly, 2, Insurance inspector, $1,920.
S.	Sheppard, 2, Insurance inspector, $1,920.
J. I. Langevin, 2, Insurance inspector, $1,920. M. Guertin, 2, Insurance inspector, $1,920.
G.	Tellier, 2, Insurance inspector, $1,920.
J. V. T. Lacasse, 2, Insurance inspector, $1,920.
C.	Bellemare, 2, Insurance inspector, $1,920.
A. A. Parke, 2, Insurance inspector, $1,920.
P. G. Duckett, 2, Insurance inspector, $1,920. A. P. C. Mills, 2, Insurance inspector, $1,920.
F.	O'Reilly, 2, Insurance inspector, $1,920.
A. Boivin, 2, Insurance inspector, $1,920.
H.	Daoust, 2, Insurance inspector, $1,920.
J. B. Walker, 2, Insurance inspector, $1,920.
A. R. Y. Foisy, 2. Insurance inspector, $1,920.
A.	A. Guilibault, 2, Insurance inspector, $1,920. R. Boisvert, 2, Insurance inspector, $1,920.
J. N. Blouin, 2, Insurance inspector, $1,920.
J. Brunette, 2, Insurance inspector, $1,920.
L. E. Poitras, 2. Insurance inspector, $1,920.
L. Viau, 2, Insurance inspector, $1,920.
J. E. L. Comolli, 2, Insurance inspector, $1,920. P. E. Dufresne, 2, Insurance inspector, $1,920. E. E. Bridgen, 1, Insurance inspector, $1,620.
H.	L. Grenier, 1, Insurance inspector. $1,620.
R. Cote, 1. Insurance inspector. $1,620.
H. L. Lewis, 1, Insurance inspector, $1,620.
R. Poirier, 1, Insurance inspector, $1,620.
J. E. Chouinard. 1, Insurance inspector, $1,620. J. W. Pringle, 1, Insurance inspector, $1,620. J. L. Desilets, 1, Insurance inspector, $1,620.
G.	Provost, 1, Insurance inspector, $1,620.
J. P. Smith, 1, Insurance inspector, $1,620.
L.	C. Vallee, 1, Insurance inspector, $1,620.
B.	LaHaie, 1, Insurance inspector, $1,620.
J. N. Mandeville, 1, Insurance inspector, $1,620.
J. R. Trudeau, 1, Insurance inspector, $1,620.
M.	D. Dicaire, 1. Insurance inspector, $1,620. L. P. Savage, 1, Insurance inspector, $1,620.
J. E. Charron, 1, Insurance inspector, $1,620.
3.	No one. All appointments made by the Civil Service Commission.


Mr. ISNOR:: 1.	What quantity of raw sugar was imported
into Canada during (a) the fiscal year ending March 31, 1942;	(b) during the fiscal year
ending March 31, 1943?
2.	From what countries was such sugar imported in each of these years?
3.	What quantity of raw sugar was imported into Canada during the month of December, 1943?
4.	Was there a quantity of raw sugar landed at the port of Halifax during the month of January, 1944?
5.	If so, from what country, and to whom was it^ consigned ?
6.	tlave representations been made to the government regarding the reopening of the Acadia Sugar Refinery, Woodside, Nova Scotia?
7.	If so, what are the names of those making such representations?
8.	Will the refinery be reopened in the near future?


Mr. ABBOTT:: 1.	(a) 488,485 long tons, (b) 303,922 long tons.
2.	B.W.I.-Australia

Fiji-Santo Domingo- Cuba-for each of the two years.
3.	17,679 long tons.
4.	5,450 long tons.
-5. 4,850 tons from Barbadoes and 600 tons from Santo Domingo-both consigned to the sugar administrator.
6, 7 and 8. No information.


PARTICIPATION CERTIFICATES, 1940-41 AND 1942 CROP DELIVERY
Mr. ROSS (Souris):: 1.	When will payment be made to farmers holding participation certificates for wheat crop delivery in the years 1940-41 and 1942?
2.	What will the payment be per bushel on participation certificates for each of the years 1940-41 and 1942?


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: 1.	Payments on the 1940 participation certificates will be started in March. Payments on the 1941 and 1942 crops will be made immediately after completion of the 1940 payments.
2.	Information not yet available, but an announcement will be made as soon as possible.


VICTORY AIRCRAFT LIMITED
Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: 1.	Has the production of Victory Aircraft Limited been satisfactory since Mr. J. P. Bickell became president?
2.	What salary and/or expenses did he receive for acting as president?
3.	What salary and expenses, if any, is to be paid to his successor, Mr. V. W. Scully?
4.	What salary and expenses did each of the retiring directors receive?
5.	Who are the new directors to be associated with Mr. Scully, and what salary and expenses is each to receive?


Mr. HOWE:: 1.	Yes.
2.	No salary; no expenses.
3.	Mr. V. W. Scully is president and general manager of War Supplies Limited and as such receives $700 per month, U. S. funds, and an additional allowance of $5 per day to compensate him for additional expenses incurred
Questions

while in Washington. When Mr. Scully is released from these duties and his full time is taken up by his positon as president of Victory Aircraft Limited, a salary will then be arranged.
4.	No salary; no expenses.
5.	(a) The following directors will be associated with Mr. Scully in the management of Victory Aircraft Limited: Harold S. Beddoe, president, United-Carr Fastener Company of Canada; Major J. E. Hahn, director general, Army Technical Development Board; President, John Inglis Company, Limited; Richard Riley, Grand Lodge representative, International Association of Machinists; L. F. Winchell, vice-president and general manager, Hinde and Dauch Paper Company of Canada, Limited; (b) No salary; no expenses.


PENSIONS AND VETERANS' ALLOWANCES
Mr. WINKLER:: How many veterans who have served in actual theatre of war are receiving, (a) pension, or (b) veteran's allowance, in the following forces: (1) Northwest rebellion of 1885, (2) South African -war, 1898-1901, (3) great war, 1914-1918?


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: Return as of 31 December, 1943, (a) (1) 5 veterans are receiving pension. (No definition of theatre of actual war for Northwest Rebellion of 1885).	(2) Decisions on entitlement to pension of members of the Canadian contingents which served in the South African war are given by the British Government. However, section 47 of the Pension Act reads as follows:
"47. The pensions which are now being paid by Great Britain for disabilities or deaths which occurred during the South African war to or in respect of members of the Canadian contingents which served in that war shall hereafter be supplemented during the continuance of the residence in Canada of the recipients of such pensions by such additional pensions as will make the total of the two pensions received by them equal to the pension that would have been awarded if they had been disabled or had died in the military service of Canada during the war. (1920, c. 62, s. 27.)"
Veterans benefiting under said section 47 number 37. No information as to theatre of service. (3) 67, 116. (b) (1) Nil. Not qualified under act. . (2) 416. (3) 21,835.


WAR VETERANS' ALLOWANCE BOARD-
[Stage Direction]
widows' allowances
Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	How many widows without dependent children have been awarded special allowances by the widows' allowance division of the war veterans' allowance board?

2.	Of	the	above,	how	many	have	been
awarded, (a) $20 per month or less; (b) between $20 and $25 per month?
3.	How many widows with dependent children have been awarded special allowances by the widows' allowance division of the war veterans' allowance board?
4.	Of	the	above,	how	many	have	been
awarded, (a) $40 per month; (b) less than $40 per month?
5.	How many awards by the widows' allowance division of the war veterans' allowance board have been made retroactive to April 1, 1943?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Return as of December 31, 1943:
1.	951.
2.	(a) 318, (b) 633.
3.	49.
4.	(a) 11, (b) 38.
5.	329.


NEW ZEALAND BUTTER IN COLD STORAGE
Mr. HATFIELD:: 1.	What quantity of New Zealand butter is in cold storage in Moncton, New Brunswick?
2.	What quantity of New Zealand butter is in cold storage in Canada?
3.	Is the above butter in bond or is it to be released for domestic consumption?
4.	How long has the butter been in cold storage?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	No New Zealand butter, but 28,000 pounds of Australian butter.
2.	No New Zealand butter, but 50,400 pounds of Australian butter.
3.	In bond and earmarked for export to the
Navy, Army and Air Force Institute.	,
4.	Since February, 1943.


MEATS IN COLD STORAGE
Mr. HATFIELD:: What quantities of the following meats were in cold storage in Canada at January 1, 1944, (a) pork; (b) beef; (c) lamb; (d) mutton?


Douglas Charles Abbott: (a) 83,231,011 lbs.; (b) 35,639,828 lbs.; (c and d) 9,344,749 lbs. (not shown separately).


WARTIME FOOD CORPORATION-FRESH FRUITS AND VEGETABLES
Mr. HATFIELD:: 1.	What are the names of the members of the Wartime Food Corporation?
2.	What experience has each had in the handling of foodstuff?
3.	Where is the head office of the corporation?
4.	Has the corporation charge of the handling of fresh fruit and vegetables in Canada?
5.	If so, under what system or plan do they intend to handle these fruits and vegetables?


Douglas Charles Abbott: 1 and 2. The directors and principal officers of the Wartime Food Corporation Limited are:

Questions
President: R. T. Mohan, president of General Foods Ltd., and administrator of Tea, Coffee and Spices.
Vice-pres.: K. W. Taylor, co-ordinator, Foods Administration.
Other directors: Raoul Godbout, president of the Horticultural Society of Canada; A. R. Johnstone, vice-president of the International Union of Hotel and Restaurant Workers in Canada; S. R. Noble, vice-president, Commodity Prices Stabilization Corporation Limited and Sugar Administrator; Carl Sanders, president of Gamble-Robinson Ltd.; E. W. Smart, administrator of Wholesale Trade.
General manager: J. B. Lander, manager of Canadian Fruit Distributors Ltd., Regina,
Secretary-treasurer: A. N. H. James of Barclays Bank.
3.	Head Office is in Ottawa; principal operating office is in Toronto.
4 and 5. Wartime Food Corporation Limited is a subsidiary of Commodity Prices Stabilization Corporation Limited. It is an administrative organization created for the purpose of carrying out instructions given by the Wartime Prices and Trade Board. It has been instructed by the board to take such action as may be necessary from time to time to ensure that supplies of fresh fruits and vegetables are available in Canada at reasonable prices and are equitably distributed. To this end it has been empowered (a) to divert supplies from surplus areas to deficiency areas and where necessary to pay the extra transportation costs involved in such diversions, (b) to bulk purchase directly or through agents, either domestic or foreign fruits and vegetables and to allocate or dispose of them in accordance with board policy or instructions, (c) to pay subsidies as the board may from time to time direct.
It is the policy of the board to make full use of existing organizations and channels of distribution.


REJECTION OF BACON SHIPMENTS TO BRITAIN
Mr. ROSS (Souris):: 1.	How many consignments of Canadian bacon to Great Britain have been rejected by officers representing the bacon board during each of the years 1940, 1941, 1942, 1943?
2.	How many consignments of bacon, if any, have been returned to the suppliers in Canada by officers of the bacon board and to whom were they returned?


Mr. GARDINER:: The following quantities and kinds of bacon consigned for export to the United Kingdom were rejected by officers of the bacon board during each of the years 1940, 1941, 1942 and 1943:
1.
Date-Name of shipper-Quantity-Kind
March 7, 1940-W. Wight & Co. Ltd., Toronto -148 bales, Wiltshires; 19 boxes, Gammons.
June 3, 1940-Gainers Ltd., Edmonton-31 bales, Middles.
June 3, 1940-Burns & Co. Ltd., Edmonton-73 bales, Middles.
June 10, 1940-Gainers Ltd., Edmonton-119 bales, Middles.
June 12, 1940-Burns & Co. Ltd., Edmonton- 191 bales, Middles.
July 3, 1940-Quebec Packers Ltd., Quebec- 61 bales, Middles.
July 3, 1940-First Co-operative Packers of Ontario Ltd., Barrie-1 box, Middles.
July 6. 1940

First Co-operative Packers of Ontario Ltd., Barrie-68 bales, Wiltshires.
July 16, 1940-Quebec Abattoir Inc., Quebec 

41 bales, Middles.
July 22, 1940-Dumarts Ltd., Kitchener-2 bales, Wiltshires.
August 20, 1940-Quebec Abattoir Inc., Quebec.-27 bales, Middles.
August 28, 1940-Quebec Packers Ltd., Quebec.-1 bale, Wiltshires.
Sept. 17, 1940-Burns & Co. Ltd., Edmonton -59 bales. Middles.
Sept. 23, 1940-Intercontinental Pork Packers Ltd., Saskatoon-118 bales, Wiltshires.
Sept. 21, 1940-Burns & Co. Ltd., Calgary- 75 bales, Middles.
Sept. 26, 1940-Quebec Packers Ltd., Quebec 

4 boxes. Backs.
Sept. 26. 1940-Quebec Packers Ltd., Quebec -3 boxes. Backs.
Oct.	23,	1940-J.	M.	Schneider	Ltd.,
Kitchener-6 boxes, Fores.
Oct.	24,	1940-J.	M.	Schneider	Ltd.,
Kitchener-8 boxes, Fores.
Dec. 21, 1940-Intercontinental Pork Packers Ltd., Saskatoon-1 bale, Middles.
March 3,	1941-Union Packing Co., Ltd.,
Calgary-73 boxes, Backs.
March 28, 1941-Swift Can. Co. Ltd., Winnipeg-78 bales, Wiltshires.
March 18, 1941-Swift Can. Co. Ltd., Winnipeg-10 boxes, Gammons.
March 18, 1941-Union Packing Co. Ltd., Calgary-58 boxes. Backs.
July 23, 1941-First Co-operative Packers of Ontario, Ltd., Barrie-40 boxes, Fores and Backs.
Sept. 20, 1941-First Co-operative Packers of Ontario Ltd., Barrie-139 bales, Wiltshires.
Feb. 11, 1942-Burns & Co., Ltd., Edmonton- 49 bales, Middles.
April 18. 1942-First Co-operative Packers of Ontario Ltd., Barrie-485 eases, Pork Offal.
June 18, 1942-W. Wight & Co. Ltd., Toronto-85 bales, Wiltshires.
Sept. 5, 1942-Quebec Packers Ltd., Quebec- 1 box, Backs.
Sept. 4, 1942-Swift Can. Co. Ltd., Edmonton-1 box, Gammons.
June 25, 1943-First Co-operative Packers of Ontario Ltd., Barrie-76 cases, Pork Offal.
June 26, 1943-Quebec Packers Ltd., Quebec- 298 cases, Pork Offal.
August 30, 1943-Swift Can. Co. Ltd., Edmonton-1 case, Pork Offal.
Questions

Date-Name of shipper-Quantity-Kind
August 30, 1943-Swift Can. Co. Ltd., Winnipeg-1 box, Livers.
Sept. 1, 1943-Burns & Co. Ltd., Prince Albert-3 boxes, Kidneys; 2 boxes, Livers.
Sept. 1, 1943-Swift Can. Co. Ltd., Winnipeg-1 box, Livers.
Sept. 9, 1943-Canada Packers Ltd., Winnipeg-1 bale, Wiltshires.
2.	All bacon for export to the United Kingdom rejected by officials of the board was turned over to the shipper at seaboard and the board has no information as to final disposition.



CONTRACTS UNDER COLD STORAGE ACT

Mr. ROSS (Souris):: 1.	How many new contracts have been entered into by the government, under the terms of the Cold Storage Act, 1907, during the years 1940 to 1943 inclusive?
2.	What are the names and addresses of the persons or companies to whom subsidies have been granted during this period?
3.	What is the total amount involved, (a) in cost of the plants; (b) in the amount of the subsidy contracted for in each case?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	Seven.
2.	Municipality of City and County, Saint John, N.B.; Kent Fruit Growers Cooperative, Blenheim, Ont.,'Elgin Growers Cooperative, St. Thomas, Ont.; North Star Cold Storage Com- . pany, Winnipeg, Man.; Winnipeg Cold Storage Company (2), Winnipeg, Man.; Edmonton Cold Storage Company, Edmonton, Alberta.
3.	(a) $101,947.60; $349834.10; S28,000.00; $49,000.00; $79,144.00; $197,231.00; $63,000.00; (b) $30,584.28; S104,950.26; $8,400.00; $14,700.00; $23,743.20; $59,169.30; $18,900.00.



SALE OF ARMY MOTOR VEHICLES IN MONTREAL

Mr. TUSTIN:: 1.	Was an auction sale of army motor vehicles held in the city of Montreal during the months of November or December, 1943?
2.	If so, on what date or dates?
3.	Were any of the said motor vehicles sold at a price in excess of the price ceiling prescribed by the order of the wartime prices and trade board?
4.	If so, how many vehicles were so sold?
5.	What was the ceiling price on each such vehicle and1 what was the price at which each such vehicle was actually sold?
6.	Has any action been taken to discipline those officials of the government responsible for a breach of the price ceiling by the government itself?
7.	If so, what is the nature of such action?


Mr. MACDONALD (Halifax):: 1.	Yes.
2.	November 24 and 25, 1943.
3.	Yes.
4.	Two.
5.	Ceiling price (1) $417.00; (2) $417.00; Sale price (1) $440.00; (2) $475.00.
6.	No. As the law officers advised that M.V.C. 18-A, M.V.C. 19-A, and M.V.C. 18 did not apply to the Crown. The Motor Vehicles Controller was fully informed of the matter and he did not require that any price adjustment be made. Instructions have been issued that, in regard to further sales of motor vehicles by the department, the orders of the Wartime Prices and Trade board are to be observed.
7.	Answered by 6.



VETERANS' LAND ACT-PURCHASES OF LAND

Mr. WRIGHT:: 1.	What is the total number of purchases of
land under the Veterans' Land Act up to January 1, 1944,	(a) under the permanent
farming scheme; (b) under the small holding scheme?
2.	What are the locations, number of acres, price and the names of parties from whom each parcel was purchased?
3.	How many veterans have been settled under the scheme up to January, 1, 1944?
4.	How many applications for settlement have been made up to January 1, 1944?


Mr. CRERAR:: 1.	(a) 109; (b) 735.
2.	It is not considered in the public interest to divulge the individual purchase prices paid.
3.	15.
4.	603.



MARKETING OF SOWS

Mr. WRIGHT:: 1.	How many sows were marketed in Canada each month, (a) from July 1 to December 31, 1942; (b) from July 1 to December 31, 1943?
2.	How many barrows and gilts were marketed each month between the above dates
under, (a) selects; (b) (d) all other grades? Mr. GARDINER:	B I's;	(c) heavies;1.	(a) 1942	(b) 1943July 	45,384	69,465August 	34,533	69,484September 	27,050	71,320October 	19,034	61,381November 	24,768	39,868December 	25,421	24,489
rMr. Gardiner.]

Questions
2.
Grade A
(a)
July	 123,170
August	 92,029
September	 138,490
October	 147,450
November	 172,495
December	 201,537
July	 146,573
August	 104,701
September	 151,432
October	 172,890
November	 227,709
December	 291,139
It is not possible to divide the barrows
Grade B1	Heavies	All Other	TOTAL(b)	(c)	Grades (d)	201,220	14,223	122,958	461,571144.691	8,001	86,529	331,250211,762	11,895	98,6S8	460,835221,979	20.185	103,565	493,179273,404	29,032	139,846	614,777325,592	36,234	158,960	722,323204.956	18,171	ISO,662	550,362143,570	14,019	137,963	400,253210,855	18,313	162,300	542,900246,338	24.504	170,260	613,992352,054	32.038	203,574	815,375476,859	35,961	239,441	1,043,400
gilts.



ROYAL COMMISSION ON COMPLAINTS OF JAPANESE NATIONALS IN BRITISH COLUMBIA

Mr. TUSTIN:: 1.	What was the total cost of the royal commission recently appointed to examine into complaints made by Japanese nationals in British Columbia with respect to treatment being received by them?
2.	Has the commission made a report of its findings, and if so, to whom?


Mr. MITCHELL:: *. $4,168.14.
2.	Yes, to the Honourable the Minister of Labour.



SUBSIDIES TO CANADIAN COLLIERIES- HOUSES FOR MINERS

[Stage Direction]
Mr. O'NEILL:
1.	What amount was paid to Canadian collieries by way of subsidy during the year 1943?
2.	What amount was spent by the government in building houses for miners in Cumberland, British Columbia, during the year 1943?
Mr. HOWE:: L During 1943, the following moneys were paid to Canadian Collieries (Dunsmuir) Ltd.:
Production subsidy	 $173,063.48
Cost of living bonus
assistance	 96,992.46
Subventions	 32,851,02
2.	What will be done with any money that may accrue as a result of the disposing of these crops at a price higher than the one allowed when making the settlements on the wheat participation certificates for these years?


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: 1.	The unsold stocks were taken over from the 1940, 1941 and 1942 Canadian wheat board crop accounts at the closing market prices of September 27, 1943, as registered for each grade of wheat, namely, $1,231 per bushel basis No. 1 Northern, Fort William-Port Arthur.
2.	The unsold stocks carried by the 1940,1941 and 1942 board years were taken over by the dominion government and are now referred to as "crown" wheat. The cost of carrying these stocks as from September 27, 1943, will be a charge against "Crown wheat account," and any loss arising as a result of the marketing of the wheat will follow the charges and accrue to the same account. Settlement on producers' certificates for these board years will not be affected by any transactions after September 27, 1943. The government are meeting the requirements under the mutual aid plan, and providing for the subsidized domestic purchasers out of government owned wheat, rather than out of the 1943-44 wheat in which the farmers have a participating interest.



DR. LEONARD C. MARSH

[Stage Direction]
Total	 $302,906.96
2.	Nil.
WHEAT CROPS OF 1940, 1941 AND 1942 Mr. WRIGHT:
1.	At what price did the government take over the wheat from the 1940, 1941 and 1942 crops ?
Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: 1.	When was Dr. Leonard C. Marsh taken on the civil list of Canada, at -what remuneration, and what is he now receiving?
2.	Has his remuneration been increased?
3.	If so, from what date?
4.	What aggregate amount has he received by way of salary, fees, travelling expenses or any other form of remuneration since his appointment?
Questions

5.	Has a Dr. Firestone been retained on certain special studies or assignments in connection with the work of the reconstruction committee or any similar committee of the government?
6.	If so, (a) to what department is he attached; (b) to whom does he report; (c) what is his nationality; (d) when did he come to Canada; (e) in what status; (f) what remuneration does he receive; (g) what sums has he been paid?
7.	Is there a Mrs. or a Miss Hurst engaged to assist Dr. Leonard Marsh?
8.	If so, (a) in what capacity; (b) at what remuneration; (c) what is her citizenship;
(d)	was she a resident in Europe at any time in the last fifteen years, and if so, where, in what status and what was her citizenship;
(e)	where was she employed prior to her present appointment?
9.	Is there a Miss Weekes engaged to assist Dr. Leonard Marsh?
10.	If so, (a) in what capacity; (b) at what remuneration; (e) where was she employed prior to her present employment?


Mr. CLAXTON:: 1.	(a) July 15, 1931. For three months. Temporary appointment as a principal clerk in the Dominion Bureau of Statistics. Salary SI,920 per annum; (b) February 16, 1934. For 4J months. Temporary appointment as a head clerk in the Dominion Bureau of Statistics. Salary S2,520 per annum, minus 10 per cent; (c) July 2, 1941. Research adviser to advisory committee on reconstruction. Remuneration $4,000 per annum. Now receiving same.
2.	Not since July 2, 1941.
3.	See (2) above.
.4. Salary: 1931, $480 (3 months); 1934, $850.50	(4J months); 1941-42, $3,000	(9
months); 1942-43, $4,000; 1943-44, $4,000.
Fees: none.
Travelling expenses: 1941-42, $171.32; 194243, $830.39; 1943-44, $769.42.
Any other form of remuneration: none.
5.	Yes. Appointed April 15, 1943.
6.	(a) Senior research assistant on staff of
advisory committee on reconstruction-responsible to Privy Council; (b) to the Research adviser; (c) Austrian; (d) July, 1940; (e) Refugee internee; (f) $3,000 per annum; (g) 1942-43: Special studies, $500-8150; travelling expenses, $71.67;	1943-44:	Salary, $3,000,
travelling expenses, $47.44.
7.	Yes. Appointed 23 April, 1943.
8.	(a) Assistant secretary on staff of advisory committee on reconstruction; (b) $2,760 per annum; (c) Canadian citizen-born in Canada; (d) Yes, in the U.S.S.R.
1932-	33:	Student on special fellowship,
through Bryn Mawr graduate school, Bryn Mawr, Penn.
1933-	37: Teaching, translation; and executive asistant in Moscow office of The Open Road, Inc., a New York city travel agency.

A Canadian citizen.
(e) 1937-40: Assistant to executive secretary, The Welfare Council of Toronto and District, 100 Adelaide St. W., Toronto.
1941-43: Convalescing from illness (T.B.).
9.	See answer to 10.
10.	Miss Weekes was in 1943 employed for a special study on provincial welfare services in relation to social security and was paid a fee of $100.



SELECTIVE SERVICE-MME. FLORENCE MARTEL

Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: 1.	Is there a Mme. Florence Martel in the department of selective service?
2.	If so, (a) when was she appointed; (b) at what remuneration?
3.	Is she also a member of the employment service council?
4.	If so, (a) when was she appointed; (b) on whose recommendation?
5.	Is she a dominion appointee to the committee on day nurseries for Quebec?
6.	If so, (a) when was she appointed; (b) is she associated in any way with the league for women's rights in Quebec; (c) do her duties take her to selective service offices and include interviewing of women workers in industrial plants in Quebec?


Mr. MITCHELL:: 1.	Yes.
2.	(a) Appointed July 11 under authority
P.C. 2254 of March 21. Appointment certified under P.C. 27-8346, Sept. 15.	(b) $3,000 per
annum.
3.	She is a member of the National Employment committee.
4.	(a) September 23, 1941.	(b) Appointed
on the recommendation of the Unemployment Insurance commission which commission considered her a person who could express the views of organizations representing women of Quebec.
5.	Yes. ,
6.	(a) 27th July, 1942.	(b) Member, but
inactive during past two years, (c) Her duties take her to selective service offices at certain times when special problems concerning the employment of women are under consideration. Her duties also take her to industrial plants to look into and advise on the general welfare conditions for women workers.



GOLD MINING INDUSTRY

Mr. NICHOLSON:: How many people were engaged exclusively in the gold mining industry at the end of each of the last five years for which statistics are available?

Questions
Mr. MacKL?INON (Edmonton West): Average number of employees in the years 1938-1942:
	Auriferous	Alluvial	
	quartz	gold	
mining	mining	Total1938.	... 29,647	1,071	30,7181939.	... 30,622	830	31,4521940.	... 31,405	840	32,2451941.	... 32,551	797	33,3481942.	... 26,030	471	26,501



CANADIAN FORCES-INCOME TAX EXEMPTION WHEN BEYOND CANADIAN BORDERS

Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	Is Kiska outside of the western hemisphere?
2.	Were income tax deductions made from service personnel in the units of the 13th Canadian infantry brigade during the time they were stationed at Kiska? If so, on what basis?
3.	Was an order in council passed providing for the sending of the 13th Canadian infantry brigade, (a) beyond the borders of Canada; or (b) beyond the western hemisphere?
4.	If service personnel, as noted above, were not given full exemption from taxation while they were in Kiska, why was such exemption not given?


Mr. MACDONALD (Halifax):: 1.	No.
2.	Yes. Deductions made at one-half effective rate applicable to each individual.
3.	An order in council was passed authorizing the despatch of personnel called out for training, service or duty pursuant to the provisions of the National Resources Mobilization Act, 1940, to the Territory of Alaska (including the Aleutian islands and other United States islands adjacent thereto). By direction of the Minister of National Defence this order in council was made applicable to all such personnel serving with the 13th Canadian Infantry Brigade.
4.	Income War Tax Act, Section 4 (t) (i), grants full exemption to personnel on strength of overseas units outside western hemisphere; first schedule section 3 rule 3 grants one-half exemption to personnel serving in western hemisphere other than in Canada.



OLD AGE PENSIONS

Mr. NICHOLSON:: 1.	How many persons in each of the provinces were receiving old age pensions on December 31, 1943?
2.	What was the average monthly payment in each province?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Answers 1 and 2 as	at September	30, 1943
	Number of	Average
	old age	monthly
	pensioners	pension
Alberta 	. 11,099	S 18 75British Columbia ...	. 14,337	19 37Manitoba 	. 12,534	18 88New Brunswick 	. 11,900	15 65Nova Scotia 	. 14,154	16 48Ontario 	. 56,776	18 98Prince Edward Island	. 1,884	13 57Quebec 	. 47,014	17 62Saskatchewan 	. 13,007	22 68North West Territories 7	20 00
Note-December 31, 1943, figures not yet available. As at September 30, 1943, the province of Saskatchewan was the only province that had furnished the Department of Finance with pay lists to enable the payment of the additional amount authorized under the War Measures Act, from September 1, 1943.



CANADIAN FORCES-ARMY BOOTS

Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	What steps has the government taken to provide for an investigation into the charges made by Mr. James Clark, of Toronto, against the inspection board of the United Kingdom and Canada, in connection with the quality of leather used in army boots supplied to the government by a certain manufacturer?
2.	If no steps have been taken to date, will the government order an inquiry?


Mr. MACDONALD (Halifax):: 1.	It is understood that the charges of Mr. James Clark as well as the answers to the charges issued by the Inspection Board of the United Kingdom and Canada will be carefully considered by the agenda committee of the Special Committee on War Expenditures and appropriate action taken.
2.	See answer to No. 1.



WARTIME OILS LIMITED

Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	What are the names and addresses of the directors of Wartime Oils Limited?
2.	How many wells have been drilled to date by the above company?
3.	What is the total amount of money expended to date in drilling operations by the above company?


Mr. HOWE:: 1.	The directors of Wartime Oils Limited are:
President, A. A. Carpenter, K.C. 501 Public Building, Calgary, Alberta.
Secretary-treasurer, K. J. Morrison, Lougheed building, Calgary, Alberta.
3S4
Questions

Director, Colonel L. D. M. Baxter, c/o Osier, Hammond & Nanton, Nanton Building, Winnipeg, Manitoba.
Director, A. H. Mayland, 301 Lancaster Building, Calgary, Alberta.
Director, J. G. Spratt, Anglo-Canadian Oil Co. Ltd., Calgary, Alberta.
2.	There have been no wells completed. There are five wells testing, and eight wells drilling.
3.	As of January 31, 1944, the amount of money expended was SI,215,332.OS.



WINNIPEG GRAIN EXCHANGE

Mr. FAIR:: 1.	Did the government order the closing of the Winnipeg grain exchange, insofar as it affects the sale of wheat, on or about the 28th day of September, 1943?
2.	If so, was this action taken with the knowledge and consent of the British government?


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: 1.	The order issued early on September 28th, 1943, effected the discontinuance of wheat trading on the Winnipeg grain exchange. The details of the government's action are contained in order in council P.C. 7942.
2.	The imported cereals division of the United Kingdom Ministry of Food were in close touch with the market situation.



FLUID MILK SUBSIDY

Mr. SENN:: 1.	How many distributors in Canada were granted the fluid milk subsidy for distribution to the producers during the last six months of 1943, by provinces?
2.	How much was paid out in each province?
3.	Do public or private institutions receive subsidies on milk produced and consumed on their own premises?
4.	If so, how many in each province, and in what amount?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	In the last six months of 1943, 1024 distributors in Canada were paid fluid milk subsidies for distribution to producers and 2276 producer distributors were paid fluid milk subsidy. The number of distributors and producer distributors receiving subsidies in each province were as follows: Prince Edward Island 6; 68. Nova Scotia 38; 161. New Brunswick 33; 331. Quebec 243; 872. Ontario 574; 235. Manitoba 22; 65. Saskatchewan 23; 49. Alberta 35; 121. British Columbia 50; 374.
2.	Total fluid milk subsidies paid to distributors for. distribution to producers in Canada for the last six months of 1943 totalled. $3,228,313 of which: Prince Edward Island received $14,531. Nova Scotia received $128,929. New Brunswick received $93,327. Quebec received $796,118. Ontario received $1,484,848. Manitoba received $170,440. Saskatchewan received $94,746. Alberta received $157,239. British Columbia received $288,135.
3.	The Agricultural Food Board does not approve the payment of fluid milk subsidy on milk produced and consumed by public or private institutions on their own premises.
4.	Answered by No. 3.



GRADING OF HOGS

Mr. ROWE:: 1.	How many hogs in Canada were inspected by government graders in each year, 1939-1943 inclusive?
2.	What are the official grades for hog carcasses?
3.	How many carcasses fell into each grade during each year as above?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1. 1939, 3,628,369;	1940,	5,454,930;	1941,
6,573,951; 1942, 6,196,850; 1943, 7,173,550.
2 and 3.	Carcass
A	 600,427
B	 1,091,789
C	 102,126
D	 8,662
Lights	 42,292
Heavies	 50,568
Extra heavies	 12,915
E	 19,504
Sows	 35,768
Total	 1,964,051
Grand total includes export.
graded
1940	1941	1942	19431,153,726	1,959,970	1,863,491	1,997,2262,325,684	3,379,023	3,428,636	3,743,893273,490	357,945	308,761	342,44518,135	25,092	18,715	17,760164,800	123,946	17,636	35,58959,563	100,069	197,722	340,46315,628	33,790	55,957	127,24448,104	69,371	70,901	82,55564,904	167,001	266,344	462,2464,131,252	6,225,515	6,232,087	7,149,421

Questions
Graded alive
	1940	1939
Select bacon 	... 370,261	518,986Bacon 	... 648,703	835,532Butchers 	... 108,451	155,927Heavies	... 21,956	37,800Extra heavies	... 11,330	14,886Lts. Feeders 	... 114,887	111,379No. 1 Sows 	... 21,500	20,075No. 2 Sows 	... 23,606	36,511Roughs 	.... 2,965	2,812Stags 	... 1,933	3,102Total:	Yards	... 593,693	746,152Plants 	.... 731,899	990,858Dir. Exp	.... 7,218	5,118Grand Total 	.... 1,332,810	1,742,128



VETERANS' LAND ACT-SASKATCHEWAN

Mr. PERLEY:: How many veterans or discharged men have been settled under the present Veterans' Land Act in the province of Saskatchewan?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: 15.



PRODUCTION AND MARKETING OF HOGS

Mr. ROWE:: 1.	How many hogs were produced in Canada in each year, 1939-1943 inclusive?
2.	How many hogs were marketed through stock yards in Canada in each year, 1939-1943 inclusive?
3.	How many hogs were delivered directly to packers* yards in each year, 1939-1943 inclusive?
4.	How many packing companies in Canada process hogs for export?
5.	How many packing companies in Canada process hogs solely for domestic consumption?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	The Dominion Bureau of Statistics estimate the total number of hogs slaughtered in Canada as follows. These figures include hogs slaughtered on farms and slaughtered by local butchers:	1939, 5,591,600;	1940, 7,116,800;
1941, 8,222,800; 1942. 8,394,000; 1943, 9,174,000*.
2.	1939,	790,422;	1940,	1,083.998;	1941,
1,090,488; 1942, 925,209; 1943 , 953.896.
3.	1939, 2,886,602;	1940, 4,499,944; 1941,
5,336,502; 1942, 5,477,407; 1943, 6,336,457.
4.	34.
5.	There are 14 abattoirs in Canada operating under federal inspection where hogs are slaughtered for the domestic market only. No information is available as to the number of companies, not under federal inspection, which process hogs for domestic consumption.



MRS. RUBY DOOLITTLE

Mr. WHITE:: 1.	Is Mrs. Ruby Doolittle in the employ of the Department of Pensions and National Health, or war veterans' allowance hoard?
2.	If so, (a) when was she appointed; (b) in what capacity; (c) at what remuneration; (d) on whose recommendation?


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: 1.	No.	'
2.	Answered by No. 1.



HENRY C. MILLER

Mr. WHITE:: 1.	Is Mr. Henry C. Miller in the employment of the oils and fats administration?
2.	If so, (a) when was he appointed; (b) in what capacity; (c) at what remuneration; (d) on whose recommendation?
3.	What amount has he received in each year sinee his appointment for travelling expenses and/or living allowance?
4.	Does he devote his full time to this position?


Mr. ABBOTT:: 1.	Yes.
2.	(a) June 8, 1942; (b) Director, Natural Resins; (c) 83,720 per annum; (d) Civil Service Commission.
3.	In the fiscal year 1942-43 travelling expenses only, S47.20. In the fiscal year 1943-44 to date, nil.
4.	Yes.



BONUS ON FLUID MILK

Mr. HANSELL:: 1.	Is the bonus of fifty-five cents per hundred
pounds of fluid milk still being paid to milk producers?	,
2.	If so, how is this bonus paid?
3.	Is the intent of this order to bonus milk producers or the milk distributors?
4.	Has the attention of the government been drawn to communities where dairy distributors retain this bonus while in other communities the dairy distributors pass the bonus on to the producer?
5.	What is the regulation in this respect?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	The government subsidy of 55 cents per hundred pounds is paid until April 30, 1944 on such milk sold by producer distributors and on such milk purchased by distributors for fluid milk consumption as the Agricultural Food Board may direct, provided that in areas where the subsidy of 25 cents per hundred pounds is considered by the Agricultural Food Board to be adequate the subsidy shall be limited to that amount.
2.	The subsidy is paid by the government to distributors or producer distributors who are required to pay the full amount of the subsidy to the producers of the milk.
3.	It is the intent of this order that all subsidies be paid to the primary producers.
4.	Yes. In certain isolated instances subsidy has been withheld from the primary producers by the distributor and when drawn to the attention of the agricultural food board and an investigation made, the subsidy was withheld from the distributors concerned and paid directly to the primary producers.
Preliminary. 100-26



Questions as Orders for Returns
5.	Distributors when making claim for subsidy must attach to their claim form the list of producers to whom the subsidy has been paid and must certify on the claim form that the total amount of subsidy which they receive has been paid to the primary producers. In cases of producer distributors purchasing milk from other producers, the names and the signatures of the producers to whom the producer distributor paid the subsidy must be entered on the subsidy claim form.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. COLDWELL:: 1.	In what currency are Canadian service personnel paid, (a) in Great Britain; (b) in Newfoundland ?
2.	If in sterling, at what rate of exchange?
3.	Do Canadian personnel receive any part of their pay in North Africa, Sicily or in Italy, in other currencies than that of the Canadian dollar?
4.	If so, what currencies, and at what rates of exchange?


Mr. McLARTY:: Return tabled.


SALE OF AIRCRAFT, AND PARTS AND EQUIPMENT
Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: 1.	Has the Department of National Defence for Air disposed of any aircraft, aircraft parts or other equipment?
2.	If so, who received the aircraft, parts or equipment?
3.	Is the general public allowed to purchase aii'craft, aircraft parts or equipment from the Department of National Defence for Air?


Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: May
I say in regard to this question that a member of the staff of the National Defence for Air came to my office and1 suggested that the form of this question be amended to read:
1.	(a) Has the Department of National Defence for Air disposed of any aircraft?
(b)	Has the Department of National Defence for Air disposed of any aircraft parts or other equipment in bulk?
2.	(a) If so, who received the aircraft? (b) If so, who received the parts or equipment in bulk?
The third question would remain as printed on the order paper.


CIVIL SERVICE-ADDITION SINCE AUGUST 1, 1943
Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: 1.	How many civil servants have been added to the government payrolls since August 1, 1943?
2.	Of these, how many are permanent and how many are temporary?


FLEET FINCHES AIRCRAFT
Mr. COLDWELL:: 1. What price per unit has the government paid for Fleet Finches aircraft?

2.	What is the overhaul price for this aircraft per unit?
3.	How many have been disposed of through salvage?
4.	At what prices and to what persons?
5.	How many have been sold or otherwise disposed of to any of the united nations?


Mr. MACDONALD:: Return tabled.



CANADIAN CASUALTIES IN VARIOUS CAMPAIGNS

Joseph Sasseville Roy: What is the list (names and addresses) of Canadian army casualties for Hong Kong, Dieppe, Sicily and Italy campaign's?


William Chisholm Macdonald: The casualty lists show the names of the casualties and the names and addresses of the next of kin. They do not show the addresses of the casualties. I have spoken to the member for Gaspe and he is quite willing to have his question amended so that it will ask for the list of casualties and the names and addresses of the next of kin. The question can be passed in that form as an order for return.



R.C.A.F.-FACILITIES FOR RELIGIOUS WORSHIP

Mr. RENNIE:: What facilities have the R.C.A.F. for religious worship in Canada?


Cyrus Macmillan: Return tabled.



CANADLAN FORCES-PULMONARY TUBERCULOSIS

Mr. ROSS (Souris):: 1.	.How many men in the armed forces, serving in Canada only, have been discharged from the service on account of pulmonary-tuberculosis?
2.	Were all of the men so discharged granted pensions for this disability?
3.	If not, how many are not receiving such pension, and why?
4.	To how many of these men are pensions being paid?
5.	How many have been granted pensions for aggravation of this condition?
6.	Were all of these men submitted to an X-ray examination on enlistment?



PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND FERRY

Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: 1.	Have tenders been called for the construction of a ferry boat to serve Prince Edward Island ?
2.	If so, who were asked to tender, stating tender prices of each?
3.	If contract has been let, what is the date, name of firm, contract price and time of delivery?
4.	What is the tonnage, dimensions and
speed ?
5.	What type of power plant is called for, stating horsepower and names of builders?
6.	Is the boat to be completed by one contractor? If not, state names of any other tenderers of component with cost and description of such equipment?

Questions ns Orders for Returns
7.	What will be total estimated cost of the boat fully equipped and delivered?
8.	Who are the architects and designers, and what fees will they receive?



CANNED VEGETABLES IN STORAGE

Mr. HATFIELD:: 1.	What was the quantity of canned vegetables being held in storage by the Department of Munitions and Supply or by any board of the government at January 1, 1944?
2.	Where are the said canned goods being stored, and in what warehouses?
3.	What are the quantities of each kind of canned vegetable?


Norman Alexander McLarty: Return tabled.



EDMONTON-WHITE HORSE AIRWAY SYSTEM

Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	What was the total cost to the dominion government, to December 31, 1943, for the construction of the airway system from Edmonton to White Horse, including both of these points, and including aids to navigation, installations for meteorological services, buildings, roads, airports, lighting and other services?
2.	How many airports have been constructed on this route, and what are their names?
3.	What was the total revenue received by the government from civil operators flying over this route for each of the years 1942 and 1943?
4.	What was the cost of maintaining the meteorological, radio, airport and other services on this route for each of the years 1942 and 1943?
5.	What operators or companies have been licensed to operate over this route?



CANADIAN PACIFIC AIR LINES

Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	Is the company known as Canadian Pacific Air Lines incorporated under the laws of the Dominion of Canada? If so, when was it incorporated?
2. Who are the officers and directors of Canadian Pacific Air Lines, and what are their addresses?
3.	What companies are owned by, or are subsidiary to, Canadian Pacific Air Lines?
4.	What functions have been assigned to Canadian Pacific Air Lines by its incorporation?


Norman Alexander McLarty: Return tabled.



RAILWAYS-INCREASED PASSENGER FARES

Mr. NICHOLSON:: 1.	Have the railway companies been granted permission to increase fares in Canada?
2.	If so, what reasons were given when the request was made for the increase?
3.	Will wages be increased to the employees?



CLOVER SEEDS

Mr. McGREGOR:: 1. What domestic retail ceiling price per pound has been established on alfalfa, red, alsike and alsike-white clover seeds?
100-25J
2.	Did the special products board by regulation take over the exportation of the surplus of all such seeds?
3.	Have any discussions been held or arrangements been made between the British food mission and the special products board or any other organization in Canada respecting the exportation of such surplus seeds?
4.	If so, what?
5.	Was a price fixed by the special products board for these exportable surpluses?
6.	If so, at how much per pound for each kind of seed?
7.	On what basis were these prices for export determined?



WINDSOR, N.S., TRANSIT OR EMBARKATION DEPOT

Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: 1.	To whom were original contracts awarded" for buildings, improvements and fittings in the construction of the transit or embarkation depot at or near Windsor, Nova Scotia, stating description of work and materials, amount of each original contract and time for completion?
2.	Were any supplementary contracts or extensions of contracts authorized, stating names, kind of work or materials and costs?
3.	Were any cost plus, days work or other special contracts entered into and, if so, state particulars?
4.	What have been the total amounts paid to1 each contractor up to January 31, 1944; also the estimated additional amounts payable to-complete contracts?
5.	What have been the, (a) tendered costs;, (b) actual costs to January 31, 1944, and (c) estimated cost to complete the above, under the-follow-ing headings: (1) land, (2) drainage and. sew'erage, (3) waterworks and services, (4) grading and filling. (5) gravelling, (6) roadways, (7) electrical services, (8) other construction work. (9) equipment, (10) total costs?
6.	What has been the cost of operating and maintaining the depot to January 31, 1944?



DORCHESTER PENITENTIARY

Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: 1.	What appointments have there been since January 1, 1935, to the chief executive positions on the staff at Dorchester penitentiary, stating names, salaries and duties?
2.	Have such appointments been for replacements or to fill newly created positions?
3.	What positions did such persons fill prior to above appointments, stating locations, duties and salaries?
4.	Have there been any promotions from the local staff? If so, give names, positions and salaries?
5.	Did the royal commission investigating these penal institutions in 1936 recognize the superior capabilities of the staff at Dorchester?
6.	Has the amalgamated civil servants of Canada or the local council at Dorchester protested against failure to make promotions from the staff at Dorchester, and if so, what action, was taken?



CANADIAN RECRUITING OFFICES IN UNITED STATES

Mr. WHITE:: 1.	Does the government maintain recruiting offices in the United States for enlistment in the army, navy or air force?
2.	If so, what is the address of each recruiting office?
Motions jor Papers

3.	Have any such recruiting offices in the United States been closed?
4.	If so, which offices have been closed?
5.	What was the rank, pay and allowances, living expenses, travelling expenses, etc., of each member of the staff of the closed offices?
6.	How many recruits were obtained through the offices now closed?
7.	What has been the total expense of each office now closed?
8.	Are there any recruiting offices in the United States still operating?
9.	If so, what staff is there at each office ?
10.	What is the rank, pay and allowances, living expenses, travelling expenses, etc., of each member of the staff?
11.	What is the total expense of each office to date?
12.	How many recruits were obtained through each office?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Major James William Coldwell: For a copy of all orders in council, correspondence and other documents relating to contracts made between the Granby Mining Corporation, of Princeton, British Columbia, and Japanese interests, together with a copy of such contracts submitted to the government from time to time for its consideration or approval.



PENSIONS-OLD AGE AND THE BLIND

Mr. KNOWLES:: For a copy of all communications, agreements and other documents, from January 1, 1943, to the present, exchanged between the government, including any department or official thereof, and the governments of the several provinces of Canada, relating to old age and blind pensions; also for a copy of all orders in council dated ;since May 19, 1943, relating to the same subject.


Mr. ILSLEY:: There is no objection to this order passing, provided it is understood that it does not cover a lot of routine correspondence such as correspondence relating to individual pensions and pay-lists covering pension payments. I take it that the hon. gentleman does not want that type of correspondence. If that is understood, the motion may pass.
Mr. KNOWLES; The correspondence that I am interested in is that relating to the total amount of the pension, adjustments in the amount, changes in regulations, and that sort of thing.
Mr. SPEAKER; Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion subject to the explanation made by the minister?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Stanley Howard Knowles: For a copy of all communications relating to wartime wages control order. 1943, P.C. 9384,
Air. White.!
received by the Prime Minister and/or the Minister of Labour, dated since December 9, 1943, from tile Winnipeg and district trades and labour council, the Winnipeg labour council of^ the Canadian Congress ot Labour, the Winnipeg central labour council of the One Big Union, and any oth^r trade union or organized labour bodies in Winnipeg; also for a copy of all replies to the said communications by or on behalf of the Prime Minister and/or the Minister of Labour.



SHIPBUILDING COSTS-GOVERNMENT AND PRIVATELY-OWNED YARDS

[Stage Direction]
Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West);
For a return showing, (a) cost of material; (b) cost of labour; (e) amount of overhead cost, of each ship of the 10,350-ton class, and of the 4,700-ton class constructed since the beginning of the war in, (i) government-owned yards; and (ii) privately-owned yards.
Clarence Decatur Howe: I must ask that this resolution do not pass, on the ground that it is not in the public interest to give the information. As hon. members know, my department has consistently taken the position since the beginning of the war that it will not give costs of war materials. I think that aside from the policy, which is also the policy adopted in the United Kingdom and the United States, there are reasons of public interest that the production of one yard shall not be compared with the production of another yard without giving the circumstances which might account for variations in price over a period or from time to time.
Mr. GRAYDON; Mr. Speaker, the timeworn reason given by the minister, that it is not in the public interest, has been resurrected again this session. I quite understand that the minister may think there are special reasons why this motion should not pass. But I would1 point out that we had a committee investigating the question of shipbuilding, a committee which for similar reasons seemed to find it necessary to sit in camera, and I should like to know whether the people of this country have the right and are entitled to have some information with respect to the money that they are spending themselves through this government in connection with our war effort. If I were satisfied that the disclosing of this information would give help and comfort to the enemy, I think the minister himself would be the first to admit that I would not make such a suggestion, nor would any other hon. member. However, there is a feeling across Canada that umbrage is taken by the government and the ministers when the phrase "not in the public interest" is objected to. I think that the minister ought to go farther in assuring this house before he requests the government and the members to turn down this motion.

Motions joy Papers


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Speaker, the difficulty is that these are private yards competing against each other in peace-time work. The conditions in the various yards are not the same. One yard may have a run of the same type of ships throughout the entire season. In that case naturally the costs would be low. Another yard may be asked to build three or four different types of ships in the same yard. Another yard may be primarily a repair yard. We may have forced them under pressure into the shipbuilding business, perhaps against their will, and the yard is doing shipbuilding work and at the same time attending to a great deal of repair work. If I could take the time of the house sufficiently to give an analysis of the reasons for the costs in each case it might be fair to bring them down. My hon. friend suggested that my department refused to give the information to the parliamentary committee.


Gordon Graydon: I did not say that at all.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We simply told the parliamentary committee the facts that I am giving here. We said to the committee, "If you insist, we will give the information, but we prefer not to disclose the competitive position of one private yard with another yard."


Gordon Graydon: Would the minister do us the courtesy of allowing this particular motion to stand?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Speaker, I suggest that I am within the rules in raising the objection with respect to this motion. I call your attention to citation 439, which is found on page 136 of Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules and Forms, second edition, 1927:
A motion for a return may be opposed on the ground of public policy, such as that the disclosure of the information sought is not for the public interest, or that its supply would involve unreasonable labour or expense.
The last clause of the citation is particularly applicable because we have not the cost of each individual ship. It would take a good deal of time and expense to analyse the costs of the various yards and bring the costs of individual ships into anything like the same proportion.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Mr. Speaker, this bears out exactly what the member for Lake Centre said, that private members have nothing to do in regard to these important matters. The people believe that, too. We do not get the information that we should have. If we cannot get the information publicly we should get it privately.
Motion dropped.



VICTORY AIRCRAFT LIMITED-J. P. BICKEI.L

John George Diefenbaker: For a copy of all letters, memoranda and other documents exchanged, etc., between Mr. J. P. Bickell, former president of Victory Aircraft Limited, and the Honourable the Minister of Munitions and Supply, or other official of the said department, touching on the resignation of Mr. Bickell from the presidency of the said company.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Return tabled.



LABOUR CODE-CORRESPONDENCE WITH PROVINCES

Gordon Knapman Fraser: For a copy of all correspondence exchanged between the government of Canada and the government of each of the provinces of Canada having relation to the drafting of legislation for a labour code or the formulation of a joint dominion-provincial policy in regard thereto, together with a copy of any letters or telegrams or other communications between any minister or official of the federal government and any minister or official of any provincial government relating thereto, from January 1, 1943, to date.


Humphrey Mitchell: That will be subject to-the approval of the provinces.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I do not think they should mind, Mr. Speaker.


Humphrey Mitchell: It is not as simple as that.


Gordon Graydon: Does the minister mean that if one province out of nine decides that the correspondence should not be brought down the government is relieved of the responsibility of tabling it in the house?


Humphrey Mitchell: The government is not asking to be relieved of anything.


Gordon Graydon: You have asked to be relieved quite often in the past.


Humphrey Mitchell: We are not asking to be relieved in this case. It has been the policy as long as I can remember to get the consent of the provincial governments before correspondence between provincial governments and the federal government is tabled. That is the only reason for making the reservation at this time.	.


Gordon Graydon: That point has been
argued many times in this house, and the minister has been present on those occasions. Xo very convincing argument has ever been put forward as to why this government should hide behind the provinces in regard to this matter. There is no cogent reason why these papers should not be brought down. There may be some reason in the government's mind why they should not be brought down, but so far as parliament is concerned there is no valid reason why the minister should take the position he now takes.
Motions jor Papers


Major James William Coldwell: Is this not a departure from the understanding we had in this house several years ago? I was under the impression that when another government of a sovereign state was involved, the permission of that government should be sought. But we are dealing with the provinces of Canada, and this practice- seems to be something new that has cropped up within the last two or three years. I think we are going far afield when we allow the government to say they cannot produce correspondence carried on between the dominion and the provinces on the ground that the provinces must first be consulted. By and by I suppose we shall be told we must ask the municipalities as well because they are the governments of their particular localities. I think we should distinguish very clearly between the courtesies that ought to be followed in our dealings with other nations and the methods we should adopt in connection with the various provinces. I think this parliament has a right to all correspondence passed between the dominion and the provinces, provided that it is not of a wartime confidential nature.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Mr. Speaker, when the Minister of Finance was dealing with the second motion for papers, which also asked for correspondence with the provinces, ho made no reservations with regard to the provinces; therefore, I do not see why the Minister of Labour should make any reservations in this instance.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: May I say a word to my hon. friend? This question was [DOT]discussed at some length last session, and I think the understanding was this. The government has no desire not to bring down *correspondence with provinces, but I do think it is what my hon. friend has just said, a matter of courtesy to inform the provinces that this information has been asked for, and to say that we propose to table it unless there is some reason they wish to put forward for not tabling it. Parliament ought to be informed of their reasons, but I do think that courtesy is courtesy, whether between nations or provinces, municipalities or individuals, and I for my part would wish to preserve that courtesy.


Major James William Coldwell: I agree with the Prime Minister in that.


Gordon Graydon: That is different from what the Minister of Labour said.


Thomas Vien: Carried, subject to the reservation made by the minister.
'Xr. Giaydun.)
women's voluntary services Mr. McGREGOR:
For a copy of all correspondence between the Minister of National War Services or any of his officials and the Marchioness of Reading re receiving a delegation of women from the women's voluntary services of Canada; and a copy of all correspondence between any of the women's organizations in Canada and the Minister of National War Services bearing on this subject; and a copy of all correspondence between the Minister of National War Services and any other sources or personages on this subject.



WAR APPROPRIATION BILL


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:
Resolved, that it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide, inter alia,
1.	That sums not exceeding $3,650,000,000 be granted to His Majesty towards defraying any expenses or making any advances or loans that may be incurred or granted by or under the authority of the governor in council during the year ending March 31, 1945, for-
(a)	the security, defence, peace, order and welfare of Canada;
(b)	the conduct of naAfal, military and air operations in or beyond Canada;
(c)	promoting the continuance of trade, industry and business communications, whether by means of insurance or indemnity against war risk or in any other manner whatsoever; and
(d)	the carrying out of any measures deemed necessary or desirable by the governor in council in consequence of the existence of a state of war.
2.	That the governor in council be empowered to raise by way of loan under the provisions of the Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act, 1931, such sum or sums of money, not exceeding in the whole the sum of $3,650,000,000 as may be required for the purpose of defraying such expenses or making such advances or loans, the principal and interest of any such loan to be a charge upon and payable out of the consolidated revenue fund.
3.	That the governor in council be empowered to reexpend, advance or loan moneys that may be received by way of refund or repayment of advances, loans or expenditure under the War Appropriation Acts of 1939 (second session), 1940, 1941, 1942, 1943 and 1944.
He said: You will note, Mr. Speaker, that this resolution asks for authority to introduce a bill which is designed to provide the appropriation we shall require for war expenditures during the new fiscal year which begins on April 1 next. Except in regard to the amount asked for, the resolution is in exactly the same form as on previous occasions; and similarly the house will find that, with the same exception, the bill itself, Avhen introduced, will be in exactly the same form as the main war appropriation bill introduced at the last session of parliament.

War Appropriation-Mr. Ilsley
This will be the tenth appropriation for direct war expenditures which parliament has been asked to provide during the present war. It may therefore be of some historical interest if I review the previous appropriations. The house will note that I am speaking of appropriations to cover only Canada's direct war expenditures; I am not including the appropriations for indirect war purposes, that is to say, appropriations to provide munitions and other war supplies to our allies.
At the first war session in September, 1939, parliament voted a war appropriation of $100 million. War expenditures during the fiscal year 1939-40 amounted to $118 million, the remainder of the funds being supplied from the ordinary vote of the Department of National Defence which had been included in the ordinary estimates for the fiscal year.
In May, 1940. parliament appropriated $700 million for direct war expenditures during the fiscal year 1940-41, and on April 4, 1941, voted a supplementary appropriation of $135 million. Direct war expenditures during the fiscal year 1940-41 charged to these two votes amounted to $752,045,000.
The main war appropriation for the fiscal year 1941-42 amounted to $1,300 million, and had to be supplemented by a further vote of $135 million in March, 1942. Direct war expenditures during the year totalled $1,339,-
700,000.
For the fiscal year 1942-43, three war appropriation acts were passed, one for $500 million in March, 1942, one for a further $1,500 million in June, 1942, and the third for $858 million at the end of the year. Total direct war expenditures during the fiscal year amounted to $2,724,200,000.
These eight votes for direct war expenditures total $5,22S million. Total direct war expenditures to the end of the last fiscal year, March 31, 1943, aggregated $4,934 million, to which should be added loans and advances charged to active assets, of $144 million, making a grand total of $5,078 million. This figure excludes indirect war expenditures to provide war supplies to other united nations.
For the present fiscal year, the house will recall that we passed last spring a main war * appropriation act for $3,890 million-in addition, of course, to the Mutual Aid Act appropriating $1,000 million for the provision of war supplies to other united nations. We are still too far from the end of the fiscal year for me to forecast with any accuracy to-day the probable total of our direct war expenditures for the present fiscal year. However, 'I am hoping that when the accounts for the
year are closed, we will find that actual expenditures for the year have run very close indeed to the original estimate we made and that no further funds for this purpose will have to be voted by parliament. Parenthetically, I may add that I expect the mutual aid appropriation of $1,000 million to carry expenditures for mutual aid purposes several weeks beyond the end of the fiscal year.
You will note, Mr. Speaker, that the appropriation which parliament is being asked to provide for the coming fiscal year, namely $3,650 million, is somewhat smaller than the provision which was made for direct war purposes for the current fiscal year. Actually the decrease is $240 million, or slightly over six per cent. I need not assure the house that this probable reduction in direct war expenditures, like the corresponding decrease forecast by President Roosevelt in connection with United States war expenditures, does not represent any slackening in the war effort but rather merely the result of the stage of the war and of our preparation for war which has now been reached. The speech from the throne clearly indicated that while the war situation has improved from the point of view of the united nations during the past year, nevertheless the duty of the government is to see that Canada's war effort is firmly maintained until the enemy is defeated in Europe and in Asia. The winning of the war clearly remains the first of all our objectives. The primary task of the government and of the Canadian people is to concentrate on the prosecution of the war and assure our men in the armed forces that there will be no diversion from this vital task and no relaxation of Canada's war effort until victory is conclusively won.
Despite the reduction, the vote asked for is still a huge one,, judged by any Canadian standard. Its magnitude and the fact that it is to provide for our direct war financial programme for the new year makes the war appropriation bill the most important by far of the many measures with which the house will have to deal during the present session. As in previous years, the resolution and the bill itself will provide ample opportunity for discussing and appraising not only the war programme which we are proposing for next year but also the record of war activities and war expenditures during the fiscal year now drawing to a close. It will be the purpose of my colleagues and myself to afford full opportunity to hon. members to make such inquiries and
IFar Appropriation-Mr. llsley
[Stage Direction]
comments as they may wish to make, and to give them pertinent information in as complete a form as may be practicable.
To facilitate such inquiries and debate, I will now place on Hansard a break-down, by the main categories of expenditure in the form used last year, of the estimated expenditure of $3,650 million for the fiscal year 1943-44. For the convenience of the house, I am also showing in the same table the corresponding estimates for the current fiscal year. Unfortunately, as I have already indicated, I find it impracticable to be responsible for giving, in addition, estimates of probable actual expenditures under each item during the current fiscal yean, but I have no doubt that my colleagues
will be prepared to report actual expenditures to some recent date and perhaps also will be willing to hazard rough estimates of probable total expenditures for the various items which come within their own jurisdiction.
The table showing the break-down of the estimated war expenditures for 1944-45 to which I have referred is too long to read, and if the house will permit me I will merely place it on Hansard and then direct attention to some of its major features and the more important items.
Thomas Vien: With the consent of the
house.


James Lorimer Ilsley: The table is as follows:
AVab Appropriation, 1944-45
Summary of estimated expenditures by departments for the fiscal year 1944-45 as compared with the estimates originally submitted for 1943-44
1944-45	1943-44
National Defence	$	$	$	$Army Services	
1,535,000,000	1,764,000,000Naval Services	
410,000,000	489,144,967Air Services	
1,090,000,000	1,129,421,414Sundry Services	
22,315,827	22,500,000
3,057,315,827 

 3,405,066,381
Munitions and Supply-
Administration	 9,000,000	9,300,000
Expansion of Industry and Production of
War Supplies	 174,000,000	157,000,000

 183,000,000 

Other Departments-
Agriculture	
Auditor General's Office	
Civil Service Commission	
External Affairs	
Finance	
Fisheries	
Justice	
Labour	
Mines and Resources	
National Harbours Board	
National Research Council	
National Revenue	
National War Services	
Pensions and National Health...
Post Office	
Privy Council Office	
Public Works	
Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Secretary of State	
Soldier Settlement	
Trade and Commerce	
Transport	
Provision for Contingencies	
3,240,315,827
73,666,070 290,600
576.500 337,425
191,581,325
690,000
245,712
24,000,654
6,831,826
179.500 3,945,507
16,494,804
20,467,980
385,360
1,077,055
6,168,000
6,557,871
14,240,309
281,500
597,443
545.000 143,852,000
578.000 50,700
21,558,192 10,288,135 53,750 2,114,708
4.000 11,651,878 15,622,130
183,020
727,858
4,490,000
6,091,320
44,950
13.000 7,296,555 8,435,215
11,000
15,000
9,799,485
12,090,675

 375,412,349
	 3,732,364
166,300,000
3,571,366,381
248,719,663
4,887,292
Total Estimated War Expenditure	
3,619,460,540	3,824,973,336Active Assets	
30,539,460	65,026,664
Grand Total chargeable to the War
Appropriation	 3,650,000,000	3,890,000,000
IMr. llsley.]
FEBRUARY 11, 1944 398 War Appropriation-Mr. Ilsley		
War Appropriation, 1944-45-Con. Details of estimated expenditures by departments and services for		the fiscal year 1944-45 as
compared with the estimates originally submitted for 1943-44		
Department of National Defence	1944-45	1943-44S	$ $	$Army Services- 1. Civil Salaries and Wages	16,199,853	8,832.6872. Pay and Allowances	547,256,061	539,730,2113. Travel, Transportation and Freight..	92,957,866	74,190,7604. Construction, Purchase, Repairs and Operating Expenses of Properties- (a) Capital Expenditure	28,987,000	62,780,482(b) Repairs, Operating Expenses and Rentals	51,059,856	46,620,6905. Personnel Supplies and Services: Food, Medical and Dental Stores, Clothing and Personal Equipment..	159,566,238	185,868,3006. Signal and Wireless Equipment, Line Construction, etc	23,599,633	27,826,7517. Ammunition and Bombs	182,194,664	273,325,8908. Armament, including Rifles, Machine Guns, Mortars and Guns of all Descriptions	104,819,202	123,070,9079. M.T. Vehicles: Trucks, Tractors, Trailers, Tanks, A.F.Vs., and Repair Parts	274,068,547	371,853,67410. Operating Cost of Mechanical Transport: Fuel, Maintenance, etc. (not including Repair Parts)	30,044,487	35,187,83311. Sundries, including Printing, Stationery, Telephones, Telegrams and Other Costs not included in Above Items	24,246,593	14,711,815Naval Services- 1. Civil Salaries and Wages	
1,535,000,000 6,511,987	
1,764.000,000 6,192,0542. Pav and Allowances	114,698,835	89,565,1193. Travel, Transportation and Freight..	9,794,479	6,978,0004. Construction, Purchase, Repairs and Operating Expenses of Properties- (a) Capital Expenditure	17,990,462	36,579,608(b) Repairs, Operating Expenses and Rentals	6,715,891	6,267,1825. Personnel Supplies and Services: Food, Medical and Dental Stores, Clothing and Personal Equipment..	27,846,280	22,015,0726. Signal and Wireless Equipment, Line Construction, etc	19,759,334	4,592,1887. Ammunition and Bombs	23,835,200	14,245,8908. Armament, including Rifles, Machine Guns, Naval Guns, etc	26,458,650	42,415,5489. Fuel Cost of Ships	27,806,604	25,257,79810. Acquisition, Construction, Charter, Repair and Upkeep of Ships	82,282,000	167,571,20211. Naval Stores: Small Boats, Minesweeping. Degaussing, Anti-Submarine, Fire-Fighting and Training Equipment, etc	34,678,967	57,651,11012. Miscellaneous Stores and Services: Printing, Stationery. Laundry, Office Machinery, Teletype Rental, etc	8,873,210	6,552,95913. [Sundries: Postage, Pilotage, Prize Funds and Other Costs not included in Above Items	2,748,101 410,000,000	3.261,237100-26	REVISED EDITION	
489,144,967
War Appropriation-Mr. Ilsley
War Appropriation, 1944-45-Con.
Details of estimated expenditures by departments and services for the fiscal year 1944-45 as compared with the estimates originally submitted for 1943-44-Con.
Air Services	$
X. Civil Salaries and Wages	
2.	Pay and Allowances	
3.	Travel, Transportation and Freight..
4.	Construction, Purchase, Repairs and
Operating Expenses of Properties-
(a)	Capital Expenditure	
(b)	Repairs, Operating Expenses
and Rentals	
5.	Personnel, Supplies and Services: Food,
Medical and Dental Stores, Clothing and Personal Equipment	
C. Signal and Wireless Equipment, Line Construction, etc	
7.	Ammunition and Bombs	
8.	M.T. Vehicles and Marine Craft:
Capital Cost and Repairs	
9.	Fuel Costs for Aircraft, M.T. and
Marine Craft	
10.	Aircraft Engines and Spares, including
Overhaul	
11.	Miscellaneous Stores and Equipment,
including Machine Guns and Other Armament	
12.	Flying Training Contracts	
13.	Maintenance of Overseas Squadrons.
14.	Sundries, including Printing, Stationery, Telephones, Telegrams, Teletype Rentals and Other Costs not included in Above Items	
Less Estimated Recoverable Items.
Sundry Services-
Departmental Administration	
Experimental Station, Suffield	
Internment Operations	
Dependents' Allowance Board	
Dependents' Supplementary Grants Fund Inspection Board of the United Kingdom and Canada	
%
22,478,709
323,315,774
27,345,330
39.750.000 17,689,838
38,515,252
34,654,365
18.175.000
7,026,713
19,892,038
188,947,545
15.992.000 29,345,667
345,664,964
8,981,443
1,137,774,638
47,774,638
1.774.000 1,916,810 3,730,717
805,300
3.500.000
10.589.000

18,620,637
238,023,232
20,838,068
93,421,100
13,482,925
50,451,918
26,838,773
23,990,000
10,508,405
29,368,636
231,846,296
26,023,160
33,805,829
303,783,729
7,818,706
1,129,421,414
1,090,000,000
22,315,927
3,057,315,827
1,526,405
8,430,895
657,700
1,285,000
10,600,000
1,129,421,414
22,500,000
3,405,066,381
Department of Munitions and Supply
Departmental Administration	 9,000,000
Expansion of Industry and Production of War Supplies	 174,000,000
183,000,000
3,240,315,827
9,300,000
157,000,000
166,300,000
3,571,366,381
[Mr. Ilsley. 1

War Appropriation-Mr. Ilsley
War Appropriation, 1944-45-Con.
Details of estimated expenditures by departments and services for the fiscal year 1944-45 as compared with the estimates originally submitted for 1943-44-Con.



OTHER DEPARTMENTS

[Stage Direction]
Agriculture-	$
Agricultural Supplies Board-
Administration	
Programmes to encourage the production of essential war supplies	
Assistance in disposal of agricultural products rendered surplus by the
war	
Feeds Administrator-
Administration	
Freight Assistance on Western Feed
Grains	
Subsidy on Western wheat used exclusively as feed for livestock... Flax Fibre Administrator-
Administration	
Fertilizers and Pesticides Administrator-
Administration	
Subventions and Freight Allowances Seeds Administrator-
Administration	
Seed Programme	
Meat Board-
Administration	
Dairy Products Board-
Administration	
Purchase and Storage of Creamery Butter	
Special Products Board-
Administration	
Seed Export Office	
Agricultural Food Board-
Administration	
Subsidies to Producers of Food Products	
Auditor General's Office-
Audit of War Expenditure	
Civil Service Commission-
Supply of Personnel for War Services.
External Affairs-
Departmental Administration and Passport Office	
Representation Abroad	
Sundry Services	
Finance-
Comptroller of the Treasury	
Wartime Prices and Trade Board-
Administration	*;[DOT][DOT][DOT]	
Commodity Prices Stabilization Corporation	
Wartime Salvage Limited, Administration and Losses	
Canadian Wool Board, Administration
Old Age Pensions and Pensions to the
Blind	
Payments to Millers and Other Manufacturers of Wheat Products	
Housing Conversion Programme	
Sundries	
$ *
51.300 93,560
550.000 47,125
16.500.000
8,000,000
32.300	.
31,850
19,100
500.000
[Stage Direction]
 25,825,235
71,300
21,690
21,690
50,190 29,480
[Stage Direction]
 79,670
68,175
47.600.000
[Stage Direction]
 47,668,175
73,666,070
290,600
576,500
142,452
87,000
108,000
337,425
9,105,355
15,600,000
140,000,000
500.000
500.000
[Stage Direction]
 156,600,000
6,942,250
15,000,000
3,755,000
178,720
191,581,325
*
43.500
177,500
1,080,000
45,000
8,000,000
2,000,000
30.500
31,600
1,000,000
16.500
180,000
[Stage Direction]
 12,604,600
71,300
14,950
1,500,000
[Stage Direction]
 -	1,514,950
49,459
[Stage Direction]
 49,459
14,240,309
281,500
597,443
270.500
111.500
163.000
545.000
7,950,000
14,300,000
120,000,000
1,000,000
500,000
[Stage Direction]
 135,800,000
102,000
143,852,000
396
War Appropriation-Mr. Ilsley
[Stage Direction]
War Appropriation, 1944-45-Con.
Details of estimated expenditures by departments and services for the fiscal year 1944-45 as compared with the estimates originally submitted for 1943-44-Con.
[Stage Direction]


Fisheries-
Assistance in the construction of vessels
of the Packer-Seiner type	
Assistance in the construction of vessels of the Dragger type and the conversion
of fishing schooners to Draggers	
Sundry Services	
Justice-
Administration of the Defence of Canada
Regulations	
Expenses in connection with Prize Courts.. Penitentiaries Branch-Purchase of materials in connection with manufactures for War Departments (Recoverable)- Sundry Services	
Labour-
War Emergency Training Programme-
Administration	 40,460
Payments to the Provinces re training for skilled ami semi-skilled occupations connected with war work		4,000,000
Payments to the Provinces re training for Aircraft Manufacturing and Ground Mechanics	 1,800,000
Vocational training of discharged Members of Canada's Armed Forces	
Assistance in meeting extra costs of Universities in accelerating certain courses and to provide loans to certain
students	
National War Labour Board	
General labour transference in War Industries and Agriculture	
National Selective Service Programme... Removal of Enemy Aliens from protected areas	 [DOT]
Payments to the Provinces in connection with organizing and operating day
nurseries and like facilities	
Assistance to the Provinces in recruiting, transporting and placing labourers on
farms	
Wartime Bureau of Technical Personnel... Stabilization of Longshore Labour-
Halifax	
Wartime Labour Relations Board	
Transfer of ex-coal mine workers back to
the industry	
Sundry Services	
Mines and Resources-
Mines and Geology Branch-
Development of Tar-sands of Alberta... Remodelling and expansion of Plant
of Abasand Oils, Limited	
Investigations of petroliferous deposits and of potential petroliferous areas in
Canada	
Special exploration and development work in connection with the supply
of strategic minerals	
Assistance to Provincial Governments in construction of transportation facilities into strategic mineral, including oil, properties	
250,000	250,000
250,000	250,000
190,000	78,000
690,000	578,000
30,000	35,000
10,000	10,000
200,000	
5,712	5,700
245,712	50,700
4S,000
5,200,000
1,950,000
5,840,460 		7,198,000
780,000	525,000
300,000	440,000
522,960	468,445
500,000	500,000
11,002,429	8,680,225
2,750,000	3,000,000
250,000	120,000
800,000	250,000
200,000	220,500
450,000	
175,000	
250,000	
179,805	156,022
24,000,654	21,558,192
500,000	
145,000	500,000
60,000	500,000
75,000	200,000
{Mr. Ilsley.]

War Appropriation-Mr. llsley
War Appropriation, 1944-45-Con.
Details of estimated expenditures by departments and services for the fiscal year 1944-45 a* compared with the estimates originally submitted for 1943-44 Con.
Mines and Resources-
Mines and Geology Branch-Cone. Bureau of Mines-
Construction of new Metallurgical
Laboratory	
Metallic Minerals Division-
Services to War Departments... -... Sundry Services	
%
Lands, Parks and Forests Branch-Bureau of Northwest Territories and Yukon Affairs-	.
Expenses of Liaison Officers^ in connection with the Alaska Highway and Canol projects	
Dominion Forest Service-
Internment and Prisoners of War
Operations	
Forest Products Laboratories	
Alternative Service Work Camps	
National Parks Bureau-Alternative Service Work Camps-
Surveys and Engineering Branch- Alternative Service Work Camps	
Prince Rupert-Terrace-Cedarvale Highway	
Employment of persons of the Japanese
Race and /or Japanese Nationals...
Post-War Construction Programme-
Planning	
Sundry Services	
Immigration Branch-	.
For expenditures in connection with looking after Canadian interests
Abroad	
To provide single minimum cost of transportation of wives and dependents of members of the Canadian
Forces Overseas	
Assistance to the National Advisory Committee for Children from Overseas	
Sundry Services	
National Harbours Board-
Halifax Harbour-Operation and Maintenance of fire boats and other fire
protection	
Sundry Services	
National Research Council-
Special War Activities	
National Revenue-
Censorship of Newspapers, etc	
National War Services-
Departmental Administration	
War Charities Division-
Administration	
Auxiliary Services	
Salvage Division	 [DOT] *
Corps of (Civilian) Canadian Firo-
Fighters for United Kingdom	
Committee on Co-operation in Canadian Citizenship	
1944-45		1943-44	
$	S	$	
		115,000	
330,000 41,500		210,000 80,500	1,755,500
10,000		10,000	
52,800 56,400 127,000		42,445 34,435 79,000	
250,000	496,200 -	500,000	665,880
		140,600	
3,000,000		5,000,000	
1,000,000		2,200,000	
420,000 67,490		22,735	7,363,335
475,000		275,000	
100,000		100,000	
75,000 46,636	696,636 -	75,000 53,420	503,420
	6,831,826		10,288,135
	178,800 700		53,750
	179,500		53,750
	3,945,507		2,114,708
			4,000'
	90,907		91,335
59,395 12,000,000	12,059,395 - 310,750	46,000 7,000,000	7,046,000 396,965
	744,905		957,850
	46,367		
War Appropriation-Mr. Ilsley
[Stage Direction]
War Appropriation, 1944-45-Con.
Details of estimated expenditures by departments and services for the fiscal year 1944-45 as compared with the estimates originally submitted for 1943-44-Con.
National War Services-Con. Censorship-
[Stage Direction]


Administration	 18,345
Information and Records Branch		171,900
Postal Censorship	 1,515,260
Censorship of Publications	 135,355
Telegraph and Cable, etc., Censorship.	337,040
Canadian Broadcasting Corporation-
Short Wave Station	
National Film Board-
Revolving Fund for Purchase of Supplies	
Special War Film Library	 40,000
Acquisition of Film Prints for Sale.	30,000
Wartime Information Film Programme	660,000
Still Photograph Production and Distribution	 115,500
Sundry Services
19,000 174,900 1,070,800 127,400 346,970
2,177,900 
[Stage Direction]
150,000
100,000
40.000
30.000 550,000
845,500
69,080
1,739,070
640,000
720,000
60,658
Pensions and National Health- Pensions Branch-
Treatment and Pension Examinations-
Members and Ex-Members of the
Armed Forces (Present War)....	9,000,000
Treatment-Royal Canadian Mounted Police	 110,000
Pensions-Armed Forces, Fishermen,
Seamen, Special Constables -
R.C.M.P., Civil Servants, Auxiliary Services and Civil Defence	Workers	8,500,000
Detention Allowances on behalf of
Canadian Seamen	 100,000
Rehabilitation Benefits	 5000,00
Sundry Services	 94,000
Health Branch-
Civil Defence	 1,038,500
Industrial Hygiene, including Inspection of Industrial Plants	 31,000
Laboratory Analyses and Services for the Department of National Defence	27,000
Public Health Engineering-Inspection of Camp Sites and Airports for the Department of National Defence in connection with Sanitation and Water
Supply	 34,000
Quarantine Medical Service-At the Ports of Halifax, Quebec, Sydney,
Montreal and Other Ports	 80,000
Processing, Storage and Distribution
of Blood for Transfusion	 565,000
Maintenance, medical and other care of incapacitated non-resident seamen pending deportation	 50,000
<	'.rant to the Canadian Nurses Association to increase the supply of qualified nurses in Canada	 250,000
<	ontribution toward Health Services
at Halifax	 45,000
Sundry Services	 43,480
16,494,804	11,651,878
4.225.000
110,000
3.500.000
100,000
400.000
95.000
18,304,000		 8,430,000
6,589,650
24.000
37.000
33.000
98,480
120.000
[DOT]	40,000
250,000
2,163,980	-	 7,192,130
20,467,980	15,622,130
Post Office-	

 
[Stage Direction]
Canadian Postal Corps	 385,360	183,020
Privy Council Office-
Statutory Orders and Regulations Division	
Wartime Information Board	
Advisory Committee on Reconstruction.. Sundry Services	
40,665 22,608 995,707 658,000 25,435 47,250 15,248	
1,077,055
727,858
IMr. Ilsley.]﻿FEBRUARY 11, 1944
War Appropriation-Mr. llsley
m
War Appropriation, 1944-45-Con.
Details of estimated expenditures by departments and services for the fiscal year 1944-45 as compared with the estimates originally submitted for 194344-Con.
Public Works-
Chief Architect's Branch-
Repairs, Alterations, Operation and Maintenance of Buildings occupied
for War Purposes	
Rental of Premises occupied for War
Purposes	
Furniture, etc., for War Employees..
Ottawa-Addition to Temporary
Building No. 8, Carling Avenue....
Post-War Construction Programme- Preparation of plans, specifications,
etc	
Sundry Services	
Chief Engineer's Branch-
Esquimalt, B.C.-Additional Operating Cost	
Saint John Harbour (Courtenay Bay)-
Dredging	
North Sydney, N.S.-Reconstruction of Wharf and Terminal Facilities.... Post-War Construction Programme- Surveys, Preparation of Plans and
Specifications, etc	
Seymour Narrows, B.C. - Removal
Ripple Rocks	
Sundry Services	
Telegraph Branch-
To provide for 24-hour service on the
Pacific Coast	
Ottawa-Telephone Service	
[Stage Direction]
Contingencies.
Royal Canadian Mounted Police- Increased Activities of the Force due to the War	
Secretary of State-
Department Generally	
Commission re Revocation of Naturalization Certificates	
Soldier Settlement- Alaska Highway-Legal Fees, etc	
and Survey
Trade and Commerce-
Export Permit Branch-Administration.. Canadian Shipping Board-
Administration	
Revolving Chartering Fund	
Shipping Priorities Committee-
Administration	
Gift of Wheat to Greece	
Steamship Subsidies War Stabilization Fund	
Transport-
Departmental Administration	
Transport Controller's Office	
Director of Merchant Seamen-
Headquarters Administration	
Manning Pools and Training Schools in
Canada	 [DOT] [DOT]
London Office and Proposed Manning
Pool in Liverpool	 [DOT]
Assistance to Seamen's Welfare Institutions and School of Navigation at Vancouver	
2.300.000
1.900.000 500,000
300,000
95,000
100,000
300.000
146.000
2,000
85,000
390,000
[Stage Direction]
1.530.000
1.500.000 700,000
5,095,000
548,000
15,000
20,000
100,000
200,000
75,000
300,000
3,745,000
320,000
	475,000 - 50,000		375,000 50,000
	6,108,000		4,490,000
	6,557,871		6,091,320
	8,000		39,950
	3,000		5,000
	11,000		44,950
	15,000		13,000
	153,805		144,160
98,300 500,000		92,435 500,000	592,435
			
	47,380 8,500,000		59,960 6,000,000
	500,000		500,000
	9,799,485		7,296,555
1	36,000 392,000		26,960 211,000
72,480		73,190	
1,111,620		898,980	
91,140			
25,000	1,300,240 -	26,500	998,670
[Stage Direction]
War Appropriation-Mr. Ilsley
War Appropriation, 1944-45-Con.
Details of estimated expenditures by departments and services for the fiscal year 1944-45 as compared with the estimates originally submitted for 1943-44-Con.
Transport-Con.
Joint U.S.A. and Canada Defence-Purchase, leasing or otherwise acquiring
properties	
Air Service-
Special lladio Services, Weather Observation and Teletype Services-
Radio Service	
Meteorological Service	
Civil Aviation Services-
Airway and Airport Traffic Control Operation and Maintenance of Municipal (Terminal) Airports	
Moncton to Newfoundland Airline___
Improvements to Airports	
Canadian Government Trans-Atlantic Air Service	
Canals Service-
Canals Generally	
Welland Canal	
Marine Service-
Marine Service Steamers, including
Icebreakers	
Aids to Navigation	
Nautical Services	
Compensation to Masters and Crews of Canadian Vessels for loss of Personal
Effects	
Railway and Steamship Service-
Cost of fitting Canadian Ships, as well as foreign flag vessels either seized in prize or requisitioned by the Canadian Government, with special
defensive apparatus	
Design, construction and operation of additional harbour and transportation facilities to the Port of Halifax,
N.S	
Assistance to the Canadian National Railway Company in the development of the iron ore deposit owned by the Steep Rock Mines, Limited, near Atitokan, Ontario	
Government Employees Compensation Act-
Administration	
[Stage Direction]
110,000
2,666,045
1,670,480
736,450
398,260
130,500
500.000
400.000
[Stage Direction]
 6,501,735
405,000
50,000
86,200
100,000
[Stage Direction]
	641,200
395,000
275,000
2,360,000
[Stage Direction]
 3,030,000
79,500
[Stage Direction]
1,761,325 1,366,000	
680,000	
336,600 976,700 500,000	
15.000 32.000	5,620,625 47,000
275,000 50,000 03,460	
100,000	488,460
300,000	
281,000	
400,000	981,000
	61,500
Provision for Contingencies___
12,090,675
3,732,364
Total Estimated War Expenditure.
3,619,460,540
Active Assets-
Purchase of Railway Equipment-
Canadian National Railways-
1941	Orders	
1942 Orders	 8,226,460
1943 Orders	 16,500,000
Loan to the Canadian National Railways for the development of the Vermilion,
Alberta, Oil Field	
Advance repurchase by Russia of Canadian Wheat and Flour	
Canadian Wool Board Limited	
Wartime Salvage Limited	
Commodity Prices Stabilization Corporation	
24,726,460
313,000
....slawiooo
8,435,215
4,887,292
3,824,973,336
4,883,664
24,543,000
29,426,664
600,000
4.000.	000 19,500,000
6,500,000
5.000.	000
Grand Total chargeable to the War
Appropriation	

30,539,460
3,650,000,000
65,026,664
3,890,000,000

War Appropriation-Mr. Ilsley
Gordon Graydon: Is that in the same form as it was last year?


James Lorimer Ilsley: Yes. When hon. members have an opportunity to examine the table they will note that in round numbers the aggregate expenditures of the three defence services are estimated at S3,057 million as compared with the original estimate of S3,405 million given for the current fiscal year. Breaking down these totals, we find that army services account for SI,535 million in 1944-45 as compared wTith $1,764 million in 1943-44; air services SI,090 million as compared with SI,129 million; naval services $410 million as compared with S4S9 million; and sundry services $22-3 million as compared with $22-5 million.
As I have already indicated, these somewhat smaller figures in each case reflect primarily the stage which we have now reached in the war itself and in our preparations for war. In other words, we have at long last reached, or at least nearly reached, the end of the costly period of preparation for total war, the end of the discouragingly long period during which we, like other peace-loving nations, have been trying to "catch up" in trained man-power, in armoured strength, and in the capacity for making the weapons for war with an enemy who had devoted several years to war-like preparations before he finally "struck" and who had therefore caught us largely unprepared. For the united nations, therefore, the initial years of war were primarily years of holding the enemy at bay by rapidly improvised programmes while we reorientated our whole economy, built new plants and extended old ones for war purposes, mobilized our man-power and trained it in the new technique of modem war and war industry, and gradually built up supplies of initial and reserve equipment considered adequate to knock out a powerful and resourceful enemy already armed to the teeth.
Fortunately, as I have said, we have reached or are reaching the point, varying to some extent in varying fields of equipment and activity, when, thanks to the superiority of our industrial resources and the resourcefulness which characterizes the democratic organization of the united nations, we can deliver against the enemy that overpowering weight of armed power which is essential for assuring victory as well as for minimizing the loss of human lives. What I have been saying applies to the united nations as a group as well as to Canada; for this tremendous mobilization for war against the common enemy has been a cooperative process involving mutual help and the integration of resources of the several nations to a very high extent. Had such
cooperation and mutual assistance been lacking, the period of preparation to which I have referred would have taken much longer- perhaps indeed the victory we aim at could not otherwise have been achieved.
The huge war appropriation which this parliament voted last year represented in a very real way the harvesting of much of this prolonged work of preparation. The very large increases in the sums then made available to our three defence services, as compared with those provided in preceding years, were to enable them to fill up their quota of initial equipment and build up reserves as far as practicable. The somewhat smaller sums being asked for this year reflect to a substantial degree the fact that this process is nearing completion and that what is now primarily necessary is to provide equipment and supplies to repair the wastage of equipment and supplies that will accrue in a period of more intense and more continuous war activity, and to keep constantly abreast or ahead of the enemy in the development and provision of new and better weapons which the changing phases of the war require. To some extent also it reflects the completion or near-completion of the construction programme of the three services.
The Department of Munitions and Supply, which is the procurement agency for the defence services as well as for other allied governments in respect of Canadian war supplies, estimates its requirements for the coming fiscal year at S183 million. This compares with the estimate of $166,300,000 for the current fiscal year which I gave for this department at the beginning of the year, although I understand that the funds actually required by this department will, because of working capital requirements, be found to have substantially exceeded this estimate.
For the war activities carried on by all other departments or agencies of government, the estimate for 1944-45 is roughly $375 million as compared with the estimate of approximately $249 million for the present fiscal year. Of this total the two largest single items are $156-6 million for administrative expenses of and subsidies to be paid by the commodity prices stabilization corporation, and approximately S74 million for the Department of Agriculture (including almost $47,600,000 for subsidies to food producers paid through the agricultural food board, $16,500,000 freight assistance on western feed grains, and $8,000,000 subsidy on western wheat used exclusively as feed for live stock). The amounts estimated for other departments are of much
War Appropriation-Mr. Ilsley

smaller magnitude and compare more closely with the corresponding estimates for the current year.
Finally, there is an estimate of S30-5 million as the amount required to cover cash outlays charged to active assets rather than to expenditure, leaving a small amount for contingencies.


Gordon Graydon: The minister has not the total of subsidies?


James Lorimer Ilsley: The total estimated subsidies will be apparent from the tables I placed on Hansard.
I shall not at this time say more about the details of these estimates by departments and functions. As I said last year, to do so would be needlessly confusing to the house, because it has not vet had time to study and digest the salient features of the table which I have placed on Hansard.
It also seems to me unnecessary to dwell at length on the general economic and financial significance of the over-all figures and it is too early for me to present to the house an accurate picture of our probable total expenditures for all purposes during the coming fiscal year.
The main estimates, which I have tabled to-day, show an increase, due primarily to increased interest on the public debt, but on the other hand we expect to be able to effect a considerable reduction in the appropriation which it will be necessary to request for mutual aid purposes. The global figure for government expenditures for all purposes during the coming year is therefore expected to be smaller than the total which parliament appropriated for all purposes during the present fiscal year.
In commenting upon the general significance of the sum requested for direct war expenditures, I wish to emphasize again that it is based on the assumption that Canada wishes to maintain a total war effort-wishes to make the maximum contribution of which it is capable during the coming year to the achievement of victory. That, I believe, represents the point of view of this house and of the country generally. The vast majority of hon. members and of the Canadian people do not wish it to be said of this country that we fought a "comfortable" war-that we stopped short of doing the most we could do to assure victory and, moreover, assure it at the earliest possible moment and with the least possible sacrifice of human lives. On the contrary,
I think they will wish to look back on their record in this war in the way that Walter Lippmann looked back to the record of the (Mr. Ilsley.]
united nations during the past year. Let me quote from what he wrote on the eve of the new year:
The year which lies behind us will in the perspective of time be remembered proudly and gratefully. . . .
The nations have been put to the test and they have met the test. Facing defeat, they have not despaired. Confronted with impossible tasks, they have accomplished them. In the judgment of history there will stand forth the grand result, and not the trouble and confusion by which we have reached it. . . .
We may say with sober confidence that we shall have the victory and that we shall come through the ordeal into one of the great epochs of human history. We have faced fearful danger and a monstrous evil; let us not be too timid to believe that in the certain triumph of this righteous cause our children will find peace and the good life again.
Our assurance that this is so rests upon the proved fact that for the greatest things in this enormous conflict-for resistance to evil, for the courage to fight, for patience to wait, the resolution to work, the readiness to endure 

our people have not been wanting. It is in the incidental and secondary things that we have been least successful.
I do not contend that everything that he says is applicable to Canadian conditions, athough some of it is. He continues:
The nagging contentions which disgust us and disgrace us have not been about the central and mighty issues of this momentous struggle. The contentions have been about seventeen cents an hour and two cents a quart for milk, and a few dollars of taxes, and a little more or a little less profit on a war contract; the contentions have been about ivho should stay in a public office or who should replace him, and how to finagle to stay in and how to manoeuvre to get in. These are the small change of the small transactions of small men who live in the little private worlds of their personal grievances and their private ambitions, *while the majestic drama of the great world, which alone can give purpose and meaning to any human life to-day, passes them by. . . .
The great things are going well, and they have been made to go well by thought and work and faith, not by accident and good luck.
There are, I am convinced, very few Canadians who wish to live meaninglessly in comfort or luxury while "the majestic drama of the great world" passes them by; few who fail to realize that we as individuals get out of life what we put into it and we as nations will share in "the grand result" of this struggle in proportion to the contribution we have made towards it. It is true that there were one or two voices raised in this house w'hich have condemned Canada's war effort on the alleged ground that it is "out of proportion to our resources" and indeed-believe it or not- that it is "proportionately greater than that of any other allied country." The facts, I think, speak for themselves. The fact is that our war effort cannot be too big, for the simple reason

War Appropriation-Mr. Graydon
that we have been been able to accomplish it. It is a travesty of truth to say that it is proportionately greater than that of any other allied country. We have done well for a small and youthful country; we have done more than the world thought we could do and more indeed than we ourselves ever dreamed that we could do, but he makes a mockery of words who says that our effort and our sacrifices are proportionately greater than the achievements and the sacrifices of the heroic people of Britain and of Russia, or the nameless suffering of the peoples of the conquered countries.
What have we in Canada suffered or sacrificed? I speak not of our fighting men or of families who have lost their loved ones. I speak only of those of us who have remained at home and are supposed to support the home front. Well, the fact is that we have suffered a few inconveniences and sacrificed some chance of profit that fattening on the extremities of other nations might otherwise have brought to us. But when you have said that, you have said all. For the nation as a whole the standard of living has risen substantially, and again on the whole it is higher than it has ever been before. Our national income has risen to unprecedented heights and it is distributed far more equitably than ever before. True, our national debt is also far higher than ever before but the significant thing is that when we take into account lower interest rates and other offsetting factors, we find that the annual burden created by that debt, the net interest charge, is smaller in relation to national income and taxable capacity than the burden of the national debt before the war or even twenty years ago. That debt will create its problem of management, no doubt, but that problem will be by no means beyond our capacity to solve. The key to it will be found in the maintenance of a high level of employment., production and national income.
To that objective we are committed. I have no doubt of our ability to achieve it, if we show boldness and intelligence in our planning and do not allow our constructive efforts to be frustrated by bickering and Strife. Fortunately, thanks to the fact that we have conceived our war effort in great and noble proportions, we shall go into the post-war period with many new assets. In particular, we shall have a vastly expanded and more highly diversified industrial equipment, a wide range of newly-acquired skills, a larger, better-trained and healthier population, and a new sense of achievement, a new confidence in our capacity to do great and difficult things. Some of these assets are of an intangible character but they are of the first importance for the tasks that will face us.
Neither now in planning our war effort nor later in planning for the new and better world which we hope it will make possible can we afford to be timid or selfish or short-sighted. We cannot afford to take counsel of small minds or selfish hearts. We must seek to do our best, the utmost of which we are capable.
That is the philosophy which has guided us in planning the war programme which requires the appropriation for which we are now asking. That programme is large and varied, but it is one which we believe we can accomplish.


Gordon Graydon: Mr. Speaker, it is not my intention to delay the house resolving .itself into committee to deal with the war appropriation resolution. I rise simply to repeat what I said last session when I indicated to the minister and the government our desire to have before us the details of the expenditures proposed for the further prosecution of the war. The Minister of Finance has now tabled the details for this year.
We are anxious this year, as we were last session, to discharge our obligation and our duty as members of His Majesty's Loyal Opposition. We intend to see that the money which has been raised by taxation, by loan and otherwise is spent to the best advantage. At this moment I think I should caution and warn the government that we are taking a definite stand with respect to war expenditures. The government may expect a closer and more effective scrutiny of each item in the war appropriations than was given last year. There are more people who are conscious of the expenditures of our government. More people in Canada are pay'ing taxes than ever before, and when a man pays taxes his consciousness of public expenditures becomes that much greater.
It will be a strange thing if there is not great waste and great extravagance in certain parts of our effort. Perhaps that, may have been expected in the hurly-burly and hurry of the early stages of the war, to which the minister has alluded, but now an entirely different set. of circumstances exists. The plan and the chart and the course of the war are known to the government. They have their organization in shape to handle the vast enterprises they are now conducting, and there is not the same reason why there should be any evidence of waste or extravagance in connection with the prosecution of Canada's national effort. Again I caution the government, and particularly the Minister of Finance and the other ministers charged with departments directly concerned with the prosecution of the war, that we shall accept nothing less than the fullest information,

War Appropriation-Mr. ColdweU.
freely and willingly given in reply to the inquiries that we shall put from time to time in the committee stage. We are not desirous of continuing this general debate because we feel that the interests of Canada can best be protected and advanced by allowing the resolution to proceed into committee as soon as possible.
There is an additional reason why I think that at this time neither the house nor the country would wish that time be spent unnecessarily in a general discussion. This nation has been awaiting for some considerable time answers to certain questions which have been put more particularly to the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Ralston). He is here in the house and ready, I understand, to go ahead with his estimates under the war appropriation. I think myself that we have already waited too long for the information he is about to give to the committee when we reach that stage. We are desirous of fulfilling our obligations as an opposition by giving the closest possible scrutiny to every dollar of expenditure which the government is making in the prosecution of the war. Our people do not mind raising the money by whatever means may be necessary, but there is at the same time a corresponding demand on the part of every taxpayer in Canada that we see to it that the money that is raised is properly and efficiently and economically spent, even in the hurry and haste of war. That is something that the taxpayer of Canada has the right to expect. That is something which we here, as members of His Majesty's Loyal Opposition, will endeavour to accomplish by scrutiny, audit and investigation of the accounts.
In taking my seat I want it distinctly understood that I do so not for the purpose of hurrying this resolution into committee but rather because we feel that by facilitating the business of the house in this way we shall the sooner be able to deal with the indivdiual items, which after all are the most important part of the discussion which will follow.
May I before I sit down ask the Minister of Finance two questions. I would have done so while he was on his feet but I was intrigued particularly by the latter part of his address and I did not wish to interrupt him. I should like to know, and I think the country would like to know how much this government intends to appropriate for Mutual Aid during the coming year. I do not think the minister gave that although he came very close to it on one occasion.
I should also like to know the government's plans with respect to the procedure that will be followed in committee. Are we going to follow the same procedure as last year? So far

there has been no agreement, as I understand it, among the different parties with respect to the procedure to be followed in discussing the war appropriation resolution this year. I think it is a proper inquiry for me to make in order that we may find out in what sequence the departments will be taken up when we get into committee.


Major James William Coldwell: Mr. Speaker, we are not yet in committee, and I do not want it to be understood that if the minister now replies to the questions just asked he will be closing the debate, because I do not wish to lose the privilege of saying a word or two.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Mr. Speaker, with the consent of the house I can answer the questions now, although we are not in committee. The amount of the Mutual Aid appropriation has not yet been agreed upon. If it were I could state the overall estimate for our total expenditures for the coming year, which I am not yet quite prepared to do. I know what I think the Mutual Aid will be but I do not wish to announce it until I am sure. All I can say is that it will be less than last year.


Gordon Graydon: Less than a billion
dollars?


James Lorimer Ilsley: Yes, less than a billion. My hon. friend's other question was as to the procedure this year. I propose that the procedure shall be exactly the same as last year, that the departments be taken up in rotation.


Gordon Graydon: In the same rotation?


James Lorimer Ilsley: We will take the defence departments first. I do not know about the other departments. There might be some variation there; I have not given any thought to that. At present I can see no reason why they should not be taken up in the same rotation, except that, by agreement, some department might be taken up in advance of another that was expected to be taken up at a particular time. The intention is to follow the procedure of last year.


Major James William Coldwell: Mr. Speaker, we have all listened with a great deal of interest to the statement of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley). Whether or not we agree with his views on social and economic matters, we all respect him and realize that he gives close attention to the work of his department and carries his heavy task with a good deal of honour to himself and to this house.
The expenditure this year, he has said, will be smaller than that of last year, but it is still ten million dollars a day-a very large sum of money for Canada when stated in those terms. We of this party are agreed

War Appropriation-Mr. Blackmore
that whatever is required of us to wiu the war should be given without stint, and we are prepared to support the government in all that is necessary in order to carry on the great struggle against the forces which are threatening the freedom of the world.
I did not rise at this stage to discuss the resolution but rather to say a word about the procedure to be followed. The war appropriation is, after all, the biggest budget that this house has to consider during the course of the year-many times larger than the civii budget which we shall adopt later in the session. In looking over the records of the last few years I find that this main appropriation is passed in the form of a bill; the bill becomes an act, and it is unlike any other budgetary act because it has not attached to it the schedules of expenditures. This afternoon I sent for a copy of the new edition of Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules and Forms. At page 168, paragraph 439, dealing with a money resolution, it is stated:
The object of the resolution recommended by the crown is to give the bouse a first opportunity to discuss the advisability of making a certain expenditure. The details of the projected measure are not then disclosed and debate is confined to the resolution which should not be lengthy, although care must be taken that the terms used are sufficiently wide to cover the whole of the bill which will be subsequently introduced.
That is the procedure laid down by the rules of this house. I have thought for some time that the procedure we have followed and apparently are to follow again this year is irregular; it does not conform with the rules. I would not object to irregularity where it served a useful purpose, but in regard to these large expenditures, as the leader of the opposition (Mr. Graydon) said a few moments ago, we should exercise care, scrutinize every expenditure, and adequately protect this nation. Consequently it seems to me that what we should be doing this afternoon is saying to the minister: Yes; we approve the principle of the resolution; let us pass it into committee and recommend its adoption as quickly as possible, so that we may examine the bill to be founded upon it. In short, we should discuss in detail the bill, not the resolution. That has been the procedure of this parliament from time immemorial. We should not be discussing the resolution for days or weeks; we should be discussing the bill and the schedules attached thereto. If the present procedure is allowed to remain as a precedent, it will be a very bad one. I raise the question this afternoon in the hope that the various groups in the house will be able to agree with the Minister of Finance
that we dispose quickly of the resolution stage and get down to the actual consideration of the war appropriation estimates when the bill is before us. Let us follow the proper parliamentary procedure and ask the government to bring down a bill at the earliest convenience, say on Monday next.


John Horne Blackmore: I believe that every hon. member looked back with a measure of regret on our performance last year with respect to the war appropriation bill. We spent far too long in more or less rambling and aimless discussions of questions upon the various items which were listed for us in the break-down of the appropriations to the various ministers. In my view that waste of time, or shall I say unwise expenditure of time, resulted largely from the way in which we went about the whole thing. I believe that if the suggestion of the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) were adopted, we would save a great deal of time and be much better satisfied after the whole thing was over.
I believe that all hon. members, and I am sure all hon. members of my group, are fully in accord with winning this war and fully prepared to support the minister to any extent that he deems advisable in carrying on the war. If three and one-half billion dollars are sufficient for him, good; if he asked for more we would support him for that higher figure. I do wish therefore that we could get the resolution off our hands and have the bill before us so that we could discuss the whole matter with much more accuracy and effectiveness.


Mr. A. G. SLAGHT (Parry Sound):: I agree with what the leader of the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation party (Mr. Coldwell) said with regard to bringing in a bill at once and not having a double-barrelled or futile discussion of the resolution itself.
Bearing upon the answer which the Minister of Finance (Mr. Usley) gave to the leader of the opposition (Mr. .Graydon) with regard to the amount of Mutual Aid to be brought down this year, and apropos of his statement that the matter was still under review, that it would not exceed the allowance of last year, but had yet to be determined, if I am in order in so doing I would offer for the consideration of the Minister of Finance and his colleagues the suggestion that we should entirely eliminate an allowance by way of mutual aid this year. No other of the commonwealth nations makes any such allowance. Our own contribution in maintaining our own armed forces and our other obligations is heavy indeed. We can be proud of that, aside from an additional
War Appropriation-Army

mutual aid allowance. There are many reasons, in my view, to support that suggestion, but now is not the proper time to give them to the house.
I desire to be understood as not including in my objection a special allowance which Canada will be asked to make this year to the organization known as UNNRA, or a contribution with our other allies to feed the starving conquered nations. I think that is an obligation, and that we must make an appropriate contribution; but, except for that, I desire with the greatest respect to suggest to the minister the entire elimination of an allowance for mutual aid.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Bradette in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE

Hon. J. L. RALSTON (Minister of National Defence):: A year ago, when I spoke in the
house on a similar occasion, I talked about preparation of the army. I now can speak of accomplishments. When I spoke last year the clearing of North Africa had just been completed. I said that the year ahead looked like a year of action, and that if it was the Canadians would be in the thick of events for which plans and preparations had been under way. I said that they were on a front which would in all likelihood prove to be the decisive front of the war. I said that they might fight on that front or on some other; that they might fight as an army or in separate formations; that wherever they were they would be a power to be reckoned with just as Canadians were twenty-five years ago.
To-day the army overseas finds itself on two fronts and I want to speak very briefly first of the troops in the Mediterranean area and of the visit which I made there in November and December. I have made no report to anybody with regard to it except to my colleagues in the government; but I think it is due our soldiers themselves and perhaps due the house that I say just a few words regarding what I saw. I spent three weeks there. I think I saw something of everything. I wished I could have seen everybody. It is not possible to take the house on a day-to-day tour, but I want to do a little more than generalize. I am afraid that half-and-half narrative may prove a dull resume of what was a trip with not a dull moment in it.
I saw the troops in three areas: North Africa, Sicily and Italy. I was in North Africa first and then in Italy, then back to Sicily, then back to Italy again, then back to Sicily and then to North Africa. The troops at that time were distributed, with reinforcements in North Africa and a hospital there. The corps troops

were in Sicily with another hospital there, and two divisions were in Italy with hospitals there. I have described the terrain to the people of Canada in something said over the radio from Campobasso. I can only repeat that it is terrain such as I never saw before, and I do not think many of us who were in the last war have seen battle conditions such as I saw in Italy. There were hills in ceaseless succession, longitudinal roads few and far between, narrow winding roads up hills toward the towns on top which had to be taken, and a wonderful opportunity of which full advantage was taken by the enemy in the use of mines on the hair-pin turns and for demolition of bridges.
As I say, I saw first the reinforcements in North Africa. I was there just two days. The troops in North Africa felt they were a long distance away from the war and their one idea and eagerness was to get further forward. They have been moved since then. I saw their hospital under field conditions. It is a hospital with over eleven hundred patients under canvas, operating under what were truly battle conditions without any actual fighting. It was on a hillside. The canvas had been blown down repeatedly. Cooking had to be done on the top of the hill and food carried something like a quarter of a mile in containers to the patients who were in marquees. I found that the hospital had been operating at that time for nearly five months with the highest morale, the greatest energy and the finest efficiency that one could imagine.
Then I went to Italy and saw the forward troops first. I saw the armoured troops disposed on each side of the road, some in billets, but many of them sleeping out in pup tents. I talked to these men as I went along. I remember the first headquarters I visited and the first group to which I spoke. At that time a lump came into my throat as I realized what those men had gone through, because I knew that particular formation and how all the way from Pachino up they had shown their worth.
There I learned what we have' to learn in this war, that operations are conducted to no small extent by means of task forces. By that I mean forces which are not necessarily homogeneous in the matter of the particular country from which the troops come or homogeneous in the particular arm of the service to which they happen to belong. The forces are put together because of the teamwork which the various arms of the services can do, and which various men from various countries can do in a combined operations to deal with a particular situation, having regard to the disposition of the enemy, the communications, the terrain, and the ultimate objective. They do not use an armoured brigade when

IFar Appropriation-Army
they can use a battalion; they detach the battalion if necessary for that purpose to make up the force which does the job. That, after all, is what counts. That is happening in the Mediterranean area constantly and is happening more in this war than ever before- the combination of troops from various countries and the combination of various arms of the services in task forces rather than in more normal organization of divisions, corps and armies. That armoured formation of ours had been in all sorts of operations as sometimes doing a task with the British and sometimes with our own division.
When I saw the armoured corps one battalion was not there, and I saw it afterwards, a battalion which had made a magnificent reputation for itself. After seeing the armoured corps I saw the forward troops. I was at one battalion headquarters where they had had a pretty tough time a couple of nights before. They had lost some men. They had sent a detachment to capture a strong feature in front of an important town. They had had to retire and to reorganize. They had sent in another detachment and captured and held the position, and were just as proud ns if they had taken Rome itself. They were living under conditions which wore pretty grim. There were no funk-holes, no trenches and no dug-outs such as veterans of the last war know. They were out in the open under the cold Italian stars with nothing but the groundsheet between them and the cold earth.
I was thrilled by my visit with them. There I learned the fluidity of the so-called line and the fluid and constantly moving nature of the operations. No over-the-top attack at dawn by a line of soldiers getting out of a trench, but fighting done by patrols fighting forward, capturing a post, moving in, then another patrol coming up and capturing another post and so on, zigzagging back and forth, finally getting toward the objective until the time comes when the guns put on the intensive bombardment, and then the assault. On that front that was going on constantly. One could not tell really just where the front was, made up as it was by patrols and by posts.
Then I saw the rear division, first the infantry brigade and later the armoured brigade, keen, anxious, alert, wanting very much to get forward, wondering how long it would be before they would be in the battle area. I knew some of the units, and I was impressed more than I can say with the sturdiness, with the appearance of good health, and with their evident determination to do their part and to keep up the fine record which our first division had established.
I visited the reinforcements in Italy, in perhaps the most attractive town I saw there. It was a touch of home to see, up on one of Mussolini's recreation centres, the sign "Maple Leaf Gardens." The streets of that town are given Canadian names. I visited another town where divisional headquarters was located at that time, where they had the Beaver club and where, by the way-and this is not intended to advertise the Canadian Pacific railway-they also had the Royal York hotel. That was a regular Canadian town. On the streets were hundreds of Canadian soldiers from the support brigades billeted in the nearby villages. They came in for a show and a day off after a strenuous tour up front. I visited, in that one day, I think ten units of the two support brigades, and had an opportunity of saying a word to them, bringing them greetings from Canada, and of bringing messages back from them. I want to say to hon. members that I have never had a more inspiring or more exhilarating or more stimulating experience. They were well turned out, clear eyed, earnest, sure of themselves because they had "been there." I saw the corps troops; they were in Sicily. The second morning before I left the word was going round over the "clothes-line" telegraph that Hitler had capitulated. Everybody was sore; they said this was a phoney war, that they had been sent to Italy when we knew there was no action going on there. That was the story, and they did not like it a bit. I am only sorry to say that since then many of those boys have learned the lesson that many of us in Canada have to learn; that is, that the war is not over and that Hitler has not capitulated. Many stem battles have been fought by those men since I saw them.
I saw another hospital in Sicily, excellently located. They had made a name for themselves in the early days of the fighting. They had lost all their equipment, but with captured German hospital equipment they had set up their establishment and, although they only had about 300 beds, they cleared something like 3,300 patients in sixteen days.
I should have said that I saw in Italy other hospitals, one of which had arrived at its location only the day before, had established itself in a practically new Italian hospital, and had already opened one wing with over 50 patients.
The nurses, medical officers, and personnel of another hospital I visited had been through a trying experience. Their ship was torpedoed and, although fortunately there was not a single casualty, they had lost everything in the way of personal belongings. However by a stroke of luck their hospital equipment was on
40S
War Appropriation-Army

another ship, and they expected to be in a position to take 200 patients within two days after I was there.
Finally I visited the assembly place of the dead who fell in Sicily, the cemetery near Agira, looking up at that town which one Canadian brigade captured with such marvellous courage and such dauntlessness in an operation that had been delayed^ a day behind schedule because of the terrific hun resistance, but which was carried through after the divisional commander himself came up to attend conferences to help replan the operation which carried the town. Not far away were Assaro. Leonforte, Castlenuova, Regal-buto and Adrano, all places where the Canadians had made their mark and their name. I went over the ground with one of the officers who had been in the operation at Agira, and he showed me the method of operating and the difficulties which they had encountered and overcome. That assembly place, I can assure the house and the people of Canada, is a dignified and a worthy resting place for those who gave their lives in Sicily. There, in after years, friends can go from Canada and pay tribute to the men who are gathered there, who sleep a warrior's sleep after having truly fought a warrior's fight.
That is the briefest sort of report on my trip. I saw the commanders, General Eisenhower, General Alexander and General Montgomery; I had an opportunity of talking with them, and I want to say that the cordiality, the informative w'av they received and talked with me, and the receptive attitude which they displayed, were things for which I was gratified and for which I thanked them on behalf of Canada. We talked straight from the shoulder. They held nothing back. They told me their plans and I told them ours. I cannot tell them here, but I mention this to remind the committee that of course there must be some things. that we who have the responsibility for these operations would know and would learn, that would influence decisions, which cannot be explained at the present time. So one has to ask the public to withhold conclusions until all the facts are known. I was tremendously thrilled, of course-and perhaps this was the highlight of the trip outside the visit to the troops-to hear the unanimous, enthusiastic and I may say unsolicited testimony which all three of these high-ranking and experienced officers gave with regard to Canadians and their magnificent work as part of their formations. They ware unqualified in their welcome to the Canadians and in praise of their work; if I remember correctly, General Montgomery's tribute was that there were no better troops in any army anywhere.

I have not said anything about the discussions at our forward headquarters in Italy. I visited those headquarters twice, where I had many discussions with regard to administrative matters. There they handle matters affecting our troops right on the ground. Matters concerning personnel, casualties, promotions, supplies and the administrative services are dealt with on the spot. It gave me an opportunity of seeing a well functioning. as I thought, and a well organized headquarters, going concern, in the field of operations.
Among the many things I had to deal with there were three affecting the troops that I might mention. One was mail. Generals may be important; ministers may have some little importance sometimes, but generally speaking the most important man in the unit is the corporal with the mail, and that was impressed upon me time and time again. I want to say to the people of Canada, through this house, that nothing can help keep up the morale of our troops like having mail get to them just as frequently and as quickly as possible. The mail service was not good at the time I was there, far from it; and I want to pay tribute to the Royal Canadian Air Force and to Trans-Canada Air Lines for the work they have done in endeavouring to put on a Canadian service to the Mediterranean. I know it has not- worked perfectly, but that has not been the fault of either the Royal Canadian Air Force or Trans-Canada Air Lines. The route they have to fly has its difficulties, its accidents and its contingencies of weather which of course interfere with uniform and regular deliveries. Mai! is all-important, and I do not mean mail telling of troubles at home; I mean mail which makes the boys realize that we are behind them, which tells the boys the bright side of life here, because believe me they have enough of the drab side in service out there.
Films wore another matter-old films. They complained bitterly about their films being out of date. That condition has been very much improved since then.
The next thing was a paper for the troops. The Maple Leaf was established on January 14. It is a newspaper published in Naples, and goes to all the troops in that area now. It is edited by the services themselves. I have seen the troops and-as I told the newsmen at Algiers-after having seen them, and after knowing something at least of what they have gone through and what they had accomplished, the ground over which they had fought and the successes they had won, I never was as proud of being a Canadian as I was that night.

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Joist one more things-and it has to do with the sombre side of warfare. Speaking of Agira, and the bit of hallowed ground there, the assembling place for our heroic dead, may I humbly put on record the casualties up to January 8. Up to that date casualties in Sicily and Italy totalled: killed in action, 1,079; died of wounds, 272; unclassified deaths, 3, giving a total of 1,354 deaths. Missing were 299; prisoners of war, 86, and wounded, 4,655. Those figures, of course, have grown since January 8.
The Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley) has spoken of the enormous sum of around three billions of dollars called for by him in the resolution. I think the hearts of Canadians everywhere go out to those homes of which the minister spoke-the thousands of homes in Canada represented in these casualty lists. It is those homes which know the real cost of the war. It is not in dollars and cents. The contribution they make is not found in an income tax schedule. Their gift is of the priceless lives and war wounds of those who. to them, were the dearest on earth.
That, Mr. Chairman, is a brief report of the visit to the troops in Italy. I came back more determined than ever to do my best to see to it that they are well served. Anything one can do, any opportunity one has to be associated with men of that kind is a privilege, and something for which I, speaking for myself, thank God.
Let me speak now of the troops in Canada and deal, if I may, with the question asked the other day by the leader of the opposition (Mr. Graydon). There has been a good deal of discussion with regard to the number of troops in Canada. I wish to make it clear, to put on the record and tell the committee what the situation is in that respect. As I explained last year, our troops are divided into operational troops, non-operational troops, troops in training-and now we have made a fourth division, namely disposal and selection centres, where for the time being men are at depots for the purpose of being discharged or of being posted to other tasks.
Included in those operational troops were the 6th, 7th and 8th divisions, to which I referred last year. The leader of the opposition has asked this question: Why were the 7th and 8th divisions disbanded? And this question: If they were disbanded, why were they ever formed? May I say to him and to the house that I said last year that I hoped we would have a reduction in the number of troops in Canada. In connection with operational troops, at that time we had about
80,000.	We had assessed the situation with respect to possible scales of attack which might
be expected, and those scales of attack had been appraised, along with our friends in the United States who had the same problem there.
Having assessed those scales of attack, the Department of National Defence, and I as minister of that department recommended to the government that we could disband the 7th and 8th divisions, and reorganize the 6th division, because the strategic situation had changed things due to the occupation of the Aleutians.
I think there has been more misrepresentation about the disbanding of the 7th and 8th divisions than perhaps in connection with anything else which has taken place concerning the army. The 7th and 8th divisions were disbanded because it was felt they were not needed longer as operational troops. That is the simple reason. And in disbanding them it was not intended to nor did we discharge physically fit men. The divisions, as divisions, were disbanded, but the men who were in the division either went to other units, to fill them up, or went to the training stream to train and to be fitted for overseas service. N.R.M.A. men in these divisions were sent to other units to relieve general service personnel. Some low-category men were discharged from the service in order that they might fill civilian occupations, and supply civilian needs. It seems to me that was a simple and sensible operation, but it certainly has been misrepresented in this country, and at first at least it was misunderstood in the United States.
I wish to emphasize just that one point, that no man physically fit for overseas service, other than in most exceptional cases, has been discharged, unless on compassionate grounds. The result has been to release more men for overseas service and to raise the average standard of physical fitness in the operational units. That is why the 7th and 8th divisions were disbanded.
Why were they formed? Some hon. members have, I think, very short memories. I want to recall this, that when war broke out with Japan, immediate steps were taken to strengthen the Pacific coast defences. We rushed troops there in the form of extra battalions and thickened our coastal artillery defences. As the Japanese success proceeded- with, I may say, pretty disastrous and alarming rapidity-pressure was increased from all sides to add to those defences in the Pacific coast area.
Pearl Harbor was in December, 1941. In April, 1942, the mobilization of the 7th and Sth divisions was authorized, in addition to the 6th division, and money was subsequently
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voted in this house. And there was not a single voice raised against the authorization for the formation of those two divisions. Two months later the Japanese attacked in the Aleutians. And then the possibility of a direct attack on Canada reached what might be called its zenith. Japanese forces were everywhere in the ascendancy.
In the Aleutians they had established an advance base. That meant an advance base in North America. Then it was not a question of whether those divisions should be mobilized, but how quickly we could get them out there. The pressure of that summer was something which I shall not soon forget. And it was not only the army which was built up to resist that attaek, because there was heavy pressure from all sides on the navy and the air force. I remember very well that increased air protection was urged, and a very large expansion of the air force on the Pacific coast was made.
That is why the 7th and 8th divisions were formed, and I have just told the committee why they were disbanded. I said that the strategic position had changed. By the end of 1942 the pendulum had swung the other way, and with the reoccupation of the Aleutians in August, 1943-remember the date-it was felt that the scale of attack could be changed. We did not lose any time about it. In September we authorized the disbanding of the 7th and 8th divisions. I do not want to make comparisons with other countries, but I do think we as Canadians can feel that we were at least as forward in that as our good neighbours to the south. It was some time after that before the announcement was made by them with regard to a change in their dispositions. Their desire was the same as ours, to release more men for overseas service. That is the situation and that is the answer to my hon. friend.
To-day in Canada we have three brigade groups. One of them consists of the brigade group which was at Kiska. Somebody wdll say. "What do you want them for?" I can only say that we want them because we are advised that there are certain scales of attack which are still a possibility. It is all very well just to say, "Let us put the guns in grease and close up on the two coasts", but I want to tell this committee that on Christmas day there was an alarm on the east coast and everybody was standing by. Shortly after that there was an alarm on the west coast and everybody was standing by. I can imagine what the condemnation would have been had there been nobody at those posts to stand at the alert.

We have a training brigade in the east and we have a few infantry battalions. We have troops in Labrador, Newfoundland, in the Caribbean and in the West Indies, all of which are included with the strength of troops in Canada. It is not as though those operational troops were there for just one purpose. The endeavour has been to make them as flexible as we possibly could, and that flexibility is demonstrated by the fact that they are trained for the defence of Canada, as I have indicated, as well as to provide reinforcements if they are needed overseas. They are trained also-and this applies particularly to the Kiska force-for special duties in the Pacific should action make that necessary and should the decision be made to send them there. I think we have a rather tidy situation. I think we have made the best of what we have. We are still at war and we do not know what the future may hold. I contend that it is good insurance to have these troops trained for whatever role they may be called upon to fill.
I have mentioned Kiska. Fortunately Kiska was an operation which resulted successfully without the firing of a shot as far as the enemy were concerned. But I want to say this for the Kiska force and for the organization of it. No better found, no better trained, no more alert a force ever left Canada than that force which went to Kiska. I want to pay a tribute to the organization of the Pacific command and to headquarters for the way in which that force was organized in a comparatively short time and made ready to go. I want to repeat here the thanks which I expressed to the Hon. Mr. Stimson, United States secretary of state for war, when I wrote to him and expressed our appreciation for the magnificent cooperation which was received in that operation from the officers and men of the United States navy and army. It was a perfect example of team work. The fact that we were able to disband the 7th and 8th divisions was due to the reoccupation of Kiska. We are proud that it was reoccupied by the joint forces of the United States and Canada.
I want now to say a word with regard to non-operational troops in Canada. These are the troops which serve the different establishments which we have in this country. These are the troops which provide the service with respect to ordnance and supplies going overseas. These are the troops which supply the training staffs for the centres for training reinforcements for overseas. They comprise a good many different groups and a great many different arms of the service. I shall not trouble to put them on record at this time, but I ask the committee to think, for

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instance, of ordnance, army service corps, medical corps, provost corps, veterans' guard, staff clerks. There are many places outside of district headquarters and national defence headquarters where these troops are required. They include the depot at Longue Pointe which is operated principally not only for storage but for the concentration and shipment of supplies to the United Kingdom government. Over three thousand men are employed at this depot. Men of these non-operaitional troops are employed in ordnance and ammunition service for other countries. There are dental units to service the navy and the air force, as well as service corps and postal corps for the air force. That gives the committee some idea of the activities of these non-operational troops.
I wish we could cut them down. No one more than the minister would like to see them reduced. We have put a ceiling on them and we are below that ceiling now, but not a great deal. We were able to make a reduction of something like three thousand troops in these non-operational units. That does not sound like a large reduction, but it must be remembered that it was made notwithstanding the fact that we have provided certain new units which had not been required before. I refer to the training brigade on the east coast which is doing such a splendid job in training reinforcements, and certain other units which have been formed for the purpose of doing civilian rather than military work, such as port companies and wood-cutting detachments. There have been increases in certain units which were serving other governments and the navy and air force.
I want to stress the fact that the non-operational troops in Canada, and the whole army in Canada as far as that goes, perform a vital service as a base for both equipment and the providing and training of troops for overseas, as well as the provision of administrative services for both the United Kingdom and the Mediterranean areas. When, we talk about the size of our army we must look at our army as a whole. We must remember that it is one army, one organization, and that a major task for these troops in Canada is to see to it that the men in the line are properly served.
Now I wish to speak of our overseas army in England and perhaps this would be the appropriate time for me to say something regarding the leave of absence which was granted to General McNaughton and which has been the subject of a good deal of comment. On December 27, I issued a statement to the press with regard to General McNaughton as follows:
The Minister of National Defence announced to-day that following the recent illness of
Lieutenant-General A. G. L. McNaughton, medical authorities have advised that he has developed a physical condition which will necessitate freedom from all military responsibility for an extended period.
General McNaughton has advised the government of his inability physically to carry on and has asked to be relieved as soon as possible.
In these circumstances and in view also of the requirements of impending operations, the minister stated that the Canadian government, with great regret, had decided to grant General McNaughton several months' leave of absence from service and to relieve him of command of the First Canadian Army. The minister paid tribute to General McNaughton's outstanding service to Canada and hoped that after a period of rest and recuperation his unusual talents would be available to serve his country in some capacity less exacting than in command of an army in the field.
Lieutenant-General K. Stuart, present chief of the general staff, has been appointed chief of staff at Canadian military headquarters, London, and Major-General P. J. Montague will continue as Major-General in charge of administration at Canadian military headquarters, London, taking that title and as judge advocate general, Canadian army overseas. Pending the appointment of a successor to General McNaughton, Lieutenant-General Stuart has been appointed to the acting command of the First Canadian Army.
The minister stated further that Canadian troops in the Mediterranean had been increased to constitute a Canadian corps under Lieutenant-General H. D. G. Crerar.
The important points were that medical authorities had advised that the general had developed a physical condition which would necessitate freedom from all military responsibility for an extended period and that General McNaughton had advised the government of his inability physically to carry on and had asked to be relieved as soon as possible, and that the government had decided to grant General McNaughton several months leave of absence from service and to relieve him of command of the First Canadian Army.
The advice of the medical authorities was contained in two reports which were transmitted to the Prime Minister on General McNaughton's direction and were also given to me.
The first report came to me about November 29 when I was in the Mediterranean area, and the second when I returned to England about December 10. The reports were as follows:
Department of National Defence Army
26th November, 1943.
To D.M.S., C.M.H.Q.
Re Lieutenant-General A. G. L. McNaughton, D.S.O., M.C.
The above noted officer was first examined by me during the winter 1941-42. At that time he had an area of localized pneumonia at the base of his left lung. He was also in a state of fatigue.

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He was again examined by me in the spring of 1943 for an acute respiratory infection. At this time it was also noted that this officer was suffering from fatigue. On both occasions lie showed a persistent hypotension.
For the past week he has been under supervision for a recurrence of his respiratory tract infection and has again shown evidence of being definitely below par.
To-day, Lieutenant-Colonel G. C. Ferguson and I have examined General McNaughton. We are both agreed that he is below par and would strongly recommend that he be given leave of absence, and freed from all military responsibility for three months; at which time he should be reexamined.
Provided he is not exposed to undue hardships it is our opinion that General McNaughton could carry on his present duties for a limited period.
L. C. Montgomery.
Col. L. C. Montgomery, Consulting Physician for DMS.
G. C. Ferguson,
O i/c Medical Division, No. 12 C.G.H.
The other is dated December 11, 1043, and reads as follows:
Examination of Lieutenant-General A. G. L.
McNaughton, C.B., C.M.G., D.S.O.
Lt.-Col. Ferguson and I have again examined Lt.-General A. G. L. McNaughton, this date, and agree that he still shows definite signs of exhaustion.
We recommend that he be relieved of all military responsibilities as soon as possible.
We also recommend that this period of rest be for not less than three months.
L. C. Montgomery,
Col. L. C. Montgomery. Consulting Physician for D.M.S.
G. C. Ferguson.
0 i/c Medical Division, No. 12 C.G.H.


Gordon Graydon: At whose request was this last examination made?


James Layton Ralston: All I know is that this report was transmitted by General McNaugh-ton's direction to the Prime Minister by cable. I was not in London at that time, if I remember correctly. I may have arrived there on the 10th or 11th but I am not too sure about that date. I know nothing of the request. As I say, this was transmitted to the Prime Minister by cable by direction of General McNaughton.


Gordon Graydon: Were any of these examinations suggested by the government?


James Layton Ralston: Not that I know of.


Gordon Graydon: Are you sure?


James Layton Ralston: They were not instigated or suggested by me in any way. All I know is that these were transmitted by General McNaughton's own direction to the Prime Minister.
fMr. Ralston.]
About the time I received the second report I received a message from General McNaughton through Major-General Montague, Senior Officer at Canadian Military Headquarters, dated December 7, when I was still in the Mediterranean area, or on the way, which was as follows:
Dear Price,
That is Major-General Montague.
Dear Price,
This is just a note to say that the experience of the past fewr days has shown me conclusively that I have not the strength left to look after the Army properly, and to do, with the required effect, the many things that need to be done from day to day.
Will you please give this message to Mr. Ralston for me, when he arrives, and say that
1	think the general interest requires that someone else should now take charge, and that I must and will accept the situation with the best grace I can muster.
Ever yours,
A. McNaughton.
Major-General P. J. Montague, C.B., C.M.G..



D.S.O., M.C., Y.D..

[Stage Direction]
The Senior Officer,
Canadian Military Headquarters,
2	Cockspur street,
London, S.W.l.
I immediately set about making arrangements in order that the general might go on leave as early as possible.
The result was that Lieutenant-General Stuart, Chief of the General Staff, who was being appointed Chief of Staff at Canadian Military Headquarters, w*as also appointed acting in command of the Canadian Army pending the time when a successor to General McNaughton would be appointed.
I saw General McNaughton personally on the 14th and again on the 21st of December.
Gordon Graydon: Is that the first time the minister saw him when the minister was over there?


James Layton Ralston: Oh, no, I had seen him two or three times before I went to Africa.


Gordon Graydon: Did you discuss his
health with him at that time?


James Layton Ralston: No.


Gordon Graydon: He did not mention his health to you?


James Layton Ralston: No. I think he spoke of the strain he was under at that time. On the 21st I gave him a copy of the press announcement which, with a slight change not relating to him, was published on December 27 and which had had the approval of my colleagues. I advised him that General Stuart would go to see him almost at once about taking over

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and to arrange for the beginning of his leave as of December 27. I wrote him on December 22 confirming this, and enclosing a copy of the press statement which I have quoted.
The Prime Minister in a statement issued on December 27 fittingly expressed the regret of us all and paid the tribute due regarding the outstanding service w-hich the general in his high posts has rendered.
I feel that the house and the country would like to have that statement on Hansard. It was as follows:
The word that General McNaughton has found it necessary to relinquish the command of the First Canadian Army will be received throughout Canada with feelings of the deepest regret. Especially will this be the case because of the present condition of his health.
General McNaughton's exceptional abilities as a scientist, coupled with his record as a soldier, marked him out as one particularly suited to plan a modern mechanized military force. With this part of Canada's war effort, he has been most intimately connected from day to day through the whole course of the war.
All Cafiada will recall the confidence which General McNaughton helped to inspire in the dark days of 1940. After the withdrawal from Dunkirk, the First Canadian Division was one of the few formations available in Britain equipped with weapons to fight. As General McNaughton's division grew to a corps, and then to an army of two corps, he accepted the growing responsibilities and faced the new problems with the utmost skill and devotion.
Weeks and months and years of waiting made heavy demands upon all the Canadian forces in Britain. They made especially heavy the burden of responsibility upon the army commander. Until now- few will have realized the great strain under which General McNaughton has worked through years of unremitting tension. It is a strain which has been the greater for him through the loss in action of a gallant son.
During General McNaughton's command, the training and organization of Canada's army overseas has been brought to a very high level. The Canadian units w-ho went into action with the Eighth Army in Sicily last July, and who are to-day fighting with such determination in Italy, have won the highest praise for gallantry in action and for stubborn courage and resolution under fire. Some of this praise belongs to General McNaughton. It reflects the fighting spirit which will always be associated with him as commander of Canada's army overseas.
General MeNaughton's health has prevented h in irom carrying on, as he would have wished, until the end of the war. He has, however, the satisfaction of know-ing that his work has been a large factor in contributing to the successes tnus far achieved by Canada's army, and that it w-ill have its part in the supreme -effort needed to attain ultimate victory.
All Canada will wish for General McNaughton a speedy restoration of his health, and that his exceptional abilities and wide experience may-long continue to be at the service of our country.
General McNaughton is now on leave, as recommended by the medical authorities. We are all glad to know that he is making good
improvement, and I repeat most sincerely what I said to him in my letter of December 22, that the only thing for him to do now is to devote all his endeavours to getting well.
I am sure that the house and the country will join in wishing for Mrs. McNaughton and for him, as well as for ourselves, that he may have a speedy and complete recovery' and many years of usefulness in the service of Canada.
Now, Mr. Chairman, I have no doubt that with the rumours and so-called "inside", "off the record" reports which are current, there might be a desire on the part of members of the house and others to make inquiries here or elsewhere as to the truth or otherwise of these rumours and reports. We could go into all of this as well as any other matters relating to the subject. I would prefer not to do so because such discussions can, to say the least, do no possible good, especially at times like these.	[DOT]
If you ask me whether General McNaughton and the government were always in absolute agreement in everything, I would undoubtedly answer "no." General McNaughton is a man of strong character and strong opinions. He is no "yes-man". The government is the representative of 'the people of Canada and charged with the responsibility of administering Canada's war effort and the affairs of Canada's army. From what I hear at times, the minister apparently is not a "yes-man" either. That there should be at times divergence of views between the military and the government is inevitable. But I can say that those differences of opinion have not interfered in any way with the loyal carrying out of plans when a decision has been reached. I can say, too, that those differences of opinion have never altered in any way the high regard in which the government holds General McNaughton both as a man and as a soldier.
I can only hope that General McNaughton will be allowed to get the rest and recuperation which he is seeking, free from the worry which a controversy would entail. I hope also that the house and the country will recognize that the important thing at this time is to carry on with the pressing activities of the war and to give wholehearted support to those who are now and who may be charged with the responsibility of leading the Canadian forces in the battle theatres.
Before I deal further with the army overseas-


Gordon Graydon: May I ask the minister one question?


James Layton Ralston: Well, I wonder if my hon. friend would allow me to go on.
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Gordon Graydon: It is a pretty pertinent one.


James Layton Ralston: I know, but there will be plenty of time.


Mr. ROSS (Souris):: If the minister would rather not have any questions asked about General McNaughton's retirement until he completes his statement-


James Layton Ralston: I have completed my statement as to General, McNaughton.


James Arthur Ross: Then this is the logical
time.


James Layton Ralston: With deference, I do not think it is. I am endeavouring to make a connected statement.
Now with regard to the army overseas-


Gordon Graydon: I was just endeavouring to help the minister clear up the whole situation. I was going to ask him one question by which I think we can entirely clear the air.


James Layton Ralston: If my hon. friend would permit me-
Mr. GRAY'DON: It is for the minister to say, but I think it would be preferable if he would permit the question now.


James Layton Ralston: Now with regard to the army overseas, in England the work and preparation go on. We have there an army headquarters, army troops and a corps. I want the committee to realize, if I can bring it home to them, just what that means-an army headquarters, army troops and a corps. A corps consists normally of two or three divisions. Then there are corps and divisional troops. We have over there reinforcements, the hospitals, the forestry corps, base installations, ordnance workshops and depots, the Canadian Women's Army Corps, and administrative services. They all have their tasks and they are training to fit into the plan of operations. I had an opportunity, both before I went to North Africa and the Mediterranean area and after I came back, particularly the latter to visit quite a number of units and formations which form the Canadian army overseas in England. I cannot tell this committee how keen they are or how hard they are working to put their years of training and preparation to the test. The waiting time for them is past. At last they can see ahead the prospect of striking the blow which will tell to shorten the war and hasten the day of return.
There is a lot written and a lot said about the army, and with all due respect I am not sure that even this committee understands just what is the composition of our forces overseas.
TMr. Ralston.]
I should like to put on record a very brief explanation of what constitutes that army, so that there will not be the apparent misunderstanding and, I submit, sometimes misrepresentation with regard to that organization.
In the first place-I am dealing with an editorial which I saw the other day-the army overseas does not consist of six or seven divisions. Some editor said that just the other day. Second, the army in Italy does not consist of three divisions. The army that is in England and in Italy consists of one army headquarters, that is officers and other ranks, signallers and so on, having to do with the operational and administrative services and the necessary troops in order to carry on those services. In addition to army headquarters, there are army troops-I will explain that in a moment-two corps headquarters, corps troops, and five divisions. That is the army overseas, both in England and in Italy. I want to make it quite clear that while for organizational purposes we divide the troops into groups, and have troops known as divisional and corps and army and line of communication and G.H.Q. troops, it does not necessarily follow that units included in those groups fight with and serve only the units within that particular group.
Whenever formations are organized, and particularly the larger formations of divisions and corps, it is always necessary to provide, with the units of the division or of the divisions forming the corps, a certain proportion of units which are required to support those formations.
What is a corps? A corps consists of a headquarters, certain corps troops, and two or more divisions. The corps headquarters is so organized that it can direct and administer two or more divisions. Corps troops are provided on the basis of a certain proportion for each division allotted to the corps. Quite often the division itself throws off a certain number of troops of certain units and hands them over to the corps commander in order that he may use them to serve either one division or the other, or both perhaps if they happen to be in the line. It may be signals, it may be artillery, it may be line of communication troops, contributed by the two divisions to the corps headquarters to serve the divisions which are in the line, and if one is in a tough spot, extra corps artillery may be put behind them.
As I have said, we have two corps, each with a headquarters. We have allotted two divisions to one of these corps, the one in Italy, and three to the other. One corps with its two divisions and an armoured formation and an appropriate proportion of army troops is in Italy under the command of Lieutenant-

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General Crerar. The other corps with its three divisions and another armoured formation is in the United Kingdom.
But we have something more in the United Kingdom. This is what seems to confuse people. We have the First Canadian Army headquarters and the remainder of the army troops which have not been allotted to the corps in Italy.
What is an army? I have said that a corps is an organization which administers, supports and directs two or more divisions. An army is an organization consisting of a headquarters, and army troops supporting, servicing, directing two or more corps. The army headquarters and the army troops in England at the present time-let the committee not forget this-were authorized and organized two years ago when we expected major activities across the channel. And there was not a single objection to it at that time. Then what happened?
Until the middle of 1943 the army stayed as a whole in England, because it was represented to us that that was where the job was. Some people said it was because the government were afraid of having the army do any fighting. Other people suggested that it was because the army commander wanted to keep it together. The truth is that the Canadian army overseas was there to be used, in whole or in part, as would best serve the allied cause. As has been said again and again, the army' overseas was kept in England because we were given to understand that that was where it could serve the best in those lean days when Britain had to stand on the defensive. But if we kept these troops in England until the time came to strike across the channel it meant that the whole Canadian contribution in land forces overseas would be thrown into battle without any of them ever having any experience under battle conditions or having heard a shot fired in anger, except the very few who might be attached for short periods to British formations in other theatres. That was the situation which we had to face in the early days because the allies were on the defensive, but it was a situation we could cure when the allies assumed the offensive and we took Steps to do it.
In November, 1942, the North African show came along. Canadians were not in, it. I was in England at the time and went immediately to inquire why, and was given, as I have already stated in the house, what I considered were good and sufficient reasons for not adding a Canadian component to the British and American forces at that time. Once more I underline the flexibility of our
organization, and that our willingness to serve did not mean "all or nothing"; that it meant "in whole or in part."
In the spring the Sicilian operation was planned and the government learned of it in due course. The Canadian government suggested that Canadian troops be employed as part of the force and eventually a request was received for a division. The division went.. It joined the redoubtable Eighth Army. The story of thirty-nine days' fighting in Sicily and six months in Italy is a golden page in Canada's war history.
After prospects faded for activity across the channel in 1943, we sought opportunity to give battle experience to more of our officers and men, not only to another division but to a corps headquarters, corps troops and army troops as well. It would be, we thought, a direct contribution to victory in driving out the enemy, but as well, it would give the Canadian army battle-trained officers and men to be available to be drawn on to help season and steady and inspire our troops in England when their job came.
We pressed for the inclusion of another division and of a corps headquarters in Italy. The arrangement was made. Another division was sent. The corps headquarters was sent, corps and army troops were sent, and to-day we have a self-contained formation on that front as part of the Eighth Army. In England we have the other corps headquarters, corps troops, three divisions and the remainder of the army troops.
As I have said, we have in England army troops and an army headquarters. What do we do with them when we have only one corps remaining in England? The answer is that those who are conducting operations are extremely glad indeed to have that army headquarters there with those army troops in order that they may direct and administer and support the Canadian corps along with other formations of British or other allied troops which may 'be put into the same army organization.
What were the alternatives? Well, there were two. One was to disband the army headquarters and the remainder of the army troops. If we did that it simply meant throwing away the benefit of long training of a highly efficient team at army headquarters and putting our corps in England under some new headquarters completely strange to our personnel and conditions. The disbandment of Canadian army headquarters would simply leave a vacancy in the order of battle of the combined armies, and would require replacement by another headquarters drawn from British or allied sources. It would do no
War Appropriation-Army

good to our common cause to disband a headquarters, which through long training with our troops had become a well coordinated and highly efficient team. By the disbandment of the remainder of the army troops we would to that extent be injuring the common cause, by dispersing trained and hardened fighting and administrative troops, and, at the same time, we would be creating a fresh demand upon the already heavily burdened British or allied forces for exactly the same units which must come from some other source, in order to support our forward formations of corps and divisions.
The other alternative-the first, as I have mentioned, would be to disband the army headquarters and troops-would be to hand this headquarters organization and these army troops over to the allies and let them officer it to suit themselves. We have chosen neither of these alternatives. We propose to keep our army headquarters and our army troops to serve our own Canadian corps in the United Kingdom, and whatever formations of our allies are included with ours. It follows that any allied formations placed under the control of our army headquarters would bring with them the appropriate proportion of corps and army troops for their support.
In a word, we have an army headquarters to control and administer, and army troops to support our corps, and we have the reinforce-_ ments for them. We are going to use that army headquarters and these army troops as a Canadian organization to add to our contribution to victory and to provide the world with further demonstration that Canada is "all-out" in her war effort.
I believe that Canadians will feel that Canada is hitting on all six cylinders with a self-contained corps in Italy with autonomy and self-dependence equivalent to the Canadian corps in the last war. In England we have another corps with its proportion of army troops, and in addition to that we have an army headquarters which we expect will have the distinction of having under its control, not only our own corps and army troops but such other formations and units of the allied countries as may be allotted to it.


The CHAIRMAN:: Shall I report progress?


Gordon Graydon: Mr. Chairman, in rising to a point of order I think it is only fair that I should give notice of the question that I intended to ask the minister who did not seem to want to answer it this afternoon. My question is whether or not any factors, other than that which he mentioned of ill-health, entered into the resignation of General McNaughton?


James Layton Ralston: I shall deal with that.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Shall I report progress?


James Lorimer Ilsley: Before you leave the Chair, Mr. Chairman, I think I should say something about the suggestion made by the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar and concurred in by the hon. member for Lethbridge, namely, that we should change our procedure this year and by general consent conclude the discussion on the resolution at an early stage.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Has the minister the unanimous consent to continue?


James Lorimer Ilsley: Do I need unanimous consent to continue?


Gordon Graydon: If you do, you have it.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Yes; I think that we are prepared to agree with the suggestion, but I am just a little doubtful whether the discussion would cease as early as it is hoped that it would. However, I agree with the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar that discussion on the resolution should be short.


Gordon Graydon: Are you prepared to bring down the bill?


James Lorimer Ilsley: I have not been able to get the house to agree. I have tried to get resolutions out of committee by saying, "Let us talk about this on the bill." Now that someone else proposes it I agree with the proposal, but I have never been able to get the house to agree with me. When we get to the bill we shall do on one section of the bill exactly what for the last three or four years we have done on the resolution; that is, the departments would have to be taken up one by one in order and fully discussed, which, I think, might have the effect of doing away with some duplication, if we can get the resolution reported.


Gordon Graydon: Would the minister include the estimates in a schedule to the bill?


James Lorimer Ilsley: No; that is the point I want to make clear.


Gordon Graydon: There is not much use in making a change unless you do that.


James Lorimer Ilsley: That cannot be done because there must be elasticity in the expenditure .of these funds. In a war you cannot say how much you need for one purpose rather than another purpose. These are estimates at the present time. There must be transfers from one item to another, from one department to another, in a great many cases.


Gordon Graydon: Does that not answer the whole thing? If you are not going to add a schedule, why change the arrangement?

Labour Conditions-Wages Control


James Lorimer Ilsley: To get rid of some duplication. I suggest to the leader of the opposition that he think about the matter between now and Monday. It depends very much on what he says about it. I am just going along the way I did last year and the year before because the house would not vote the money, they would not pass the resolution giving us billions of dollars unless they had an account of our expenditures of the year before. They never would do it. If they will do this year I shall be very happy.


Gordon Graydon: You would be the first
one to ask the same questions if you were leader of the opposition.


James Lorimer Ilsley: I do not know if I would or not.


Gordon Graydon: If you did not you would not be a very good leader of the opposition.


James Lorimer Ilsley: I am not disagreeing with anybody. I am just, saying, if you do agree with the suggestion of the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar, I am agreeable.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Shall the resolution carry?


Major James William Coldwell: No. I think it depends upon the addition of the schedule.
Mr. GRAYDON; Everything depends upon that.


Major James William Coldwell: That is what I had in mind, anyhow.


Gordon Graydon: If you are not going to have the schedule let us go on as we were. I think the decision can be made now.


James Lorimer Ilsley: All right.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Mackenzie King the house adjourned at 6.12 p.m.
Monday, February 14, 1944