1944-03-17

Mr. J. H. BLACKMORE (Lethbridge):: I rise to a question of privilege. Last Friday the Prime Minister rose on a question of privilege and attacked me for certain remarks I had made on Tuesday, March 7, as recorded on pages 1278-79 of Hansard. The Prime Minister's speech filled almost four columns of Hansard. Whoever prepared the speech the Prime Minister made, it caused him-


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: What is the point of privilege?


John Horne Blackmore: -to make statements which he should never have uttered. The speech is full of untruths-


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: Order.


John Horne Blackmore: -half truths-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I rise on a point of order. The hon. member has no right to say statements of mine are untrue at least before he states his question of privilege.


John Horne Blackmore: I do not think the Prime Minister heard what I said. I said, "whoever wrote his speech-"


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think my hon. friend is quite forgetting himself. However, I shall wait and hear what he has to say; but I assure him any statement or speech to which he may refer was my own.
Privilege-Mr. Blackmore


John Horne Blackmore: I am sorry to hear the Prime Minister made this speech. There were a great many misrepresentations or instances of-


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Order.


Mr. SPEAKER:: The hon. member cannot make such statements with regard to another hon. member.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: May I draw Your Honour's attention to the fact that on a question of privilege an hon. member is supposed to raise his question as soon as possible. The hon. member has raised a question of privilege on some matter that took place a week or two ago.


John Horne Blackmore: At one point in his speech the Prime Minister said; as reported at page 1345 of Hansard:
It is irresponsible and unwarranted utterances such as these, both inside and outside the house, which tend to destroy the faith of the people alike in government and parliament_
I had suggested to him that he tell the house whether or not the Liberal party had received campaign funds from the sugar interests, particularly the St. Lawrence Sugar Refineries and Mr. J. W. McConnell. He could have answered this question, but it has not been answered.


Thomas Vien: The hon. member must state his question of privilege without argument.


John Horne Blackmore: Then, Mr. Speaker, may I point out that as a result of the Prime Minister's remarks many people in the country were deceived, and among them several prominent newspapers. I have in my hand an editorial-


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Order.


John Horne Blackmore: -from the Globe and Mail-


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I submit Your Honour should rule on this procedure and have the hon. member obey the rules of the house.


Thomas Vien: The hon. member-


John Horne Blackmore: I cannot hear Your Honour.


Thomas Vien: The hon. member must
state his question of privilege as shortly and concisely as possible without reference to what other people or the newspaper said.


John Horne Blackmore: Mr. Speaker, in order to indicate the degree of deprivation of privilege which this editorial has inflicted upon me, it is necessary for me to read several passages; in fact I see no way of avoiding it. There are many instances of hon. members rising in this house to read statements from newspapers as evidence that their privileges had been violated, and I ask the same privilege to-day.
The editorial in question is contained in the Toronto Globe and Mail of March 13, 1944. It says in part as follows:
Mr. Blackmore, who represents a constituency interested in beet sugar, had announced his suspicion that both the available quantity and price of sugar had been influenced by the operations of a sugar trust or combine, dominated by the St. Lawrence Sugar Refineries, of which Mr. McConnell is president. He also suggested that these operations might have been helped by governmental policy under the stimulus of contributions to the Liberal campaign fund made by Mr. McConnell.
Mr. King made a categorical denial of these allegations.
Then farther down the editorial it says:
In making such ill-founded charges, Mr. Blackmore is not the only sinner. Not a few radical demagogues are addicted to the habit of singling out for unfair attacks and imputing dishonest motives to all men who have managed by industry, initiative and foresight to acquire substantial fortunes.
Then still farther down:
The Prime Minister's defence of Mr. McConnell will be applauded by many people...
I have no particular objection to that.


Thomas Vien: Order. I have listened to the hon. member read the entire editorial in question. I assume what he is referring to is the last sentence, which he has just read. There may be a question of privilege in that, and I would ask the hon. member to confine his remarks to it.


John Horne Blackmore: It seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that if an hon. member makes a statement in this house, and another hon. member practically calls it a lie, a newspaper which makes a statement to that effect certainly is violating the privilege of that hon. member. The statement is here; "there was a categorical denial of every one of these allegations." However, I shall just pass that by-. I should like to point out that the Toronto Globe and Mail, in effect and by implication, called me a sinner, a demagogue and an imputer of dishonest motives, and suggested that I classified as malefactors or public enemies those who had reaped great rewards by their ability and enterprise,

Privilege-Mr. Hansell
through perfectly honest means. I hereby challenge the Globe and Mail to justify its statement that I have merited any of those offensive remarks, by reference to my record either in this house or outside of it.
Now, Mr. Speaker, may I go on and refer once more to the remarks of the Prime Minister, which I think also violated my privilege. Under the rules of this house, as far as I can judge, it has been impossible for me to answer the right hon. gentleman. I had expected to do it the following day, but there were a great many things which took up the time of the house; the next day was Wednesday, and the following day was completely occupied with other business, so that I am taking the earliest opportunity of telling the Prime Minister and this country that the right hon. gentleman was altogether unjustified in characterizing my remarks as irresponsible utterances. I intend at the earliest opportunity to bring evidence before this house to indicate that I had ample justification for all the allegations I made on the evening of March 7.
While I am on my feet may I refer to the speech of the hon. member for St. Antoine-Westmount (Mr. Abbott), in closing the debate on the industrial development bank, again at a time w'hen I could not answer him. The hon. gentleman took time off to refer to me in a way which was not justified.


Mr. ABBOTT:: You took time off to discuss matters which were not relevant to the debate.


John Horne Blackmore: Very good. I wish to point out that on that occasion the hon. gentleman used the following words about me, as recorded in Hansard-


Thomas Vien: The hon. member has stated his point of privilege, and I would ask him to conclude his remarks.


John Horne Blackmore: I could not hear what you said, Mr. Speaker.


Thomas Vien: I think the hon. member has now stated his question of privilege as far as the reference to the Prime Minister is concerned; his other remarks, in reference to the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance, are not relevant at the moment.


John Horne Blackmore: In closing, Mr. Speaker, I just wish to warn the two hon. gentlemen to be in their seats, because there is plenty of evidence that will require the most accurate-


Mr. MACDONALD (Kingston City):: Surely it is not a question of privilege for the hon.
gentleman to rise and warn people as to what he intends to do. There cannot be any privilege in that.


Thomas Vien: The hon. member has concluded his remarks on the subject.



MB. HANSELL - SOCIAL CKEDIT PARTY - RADIO TIME

Mr. E. G. HANSELL (Macleod):: I rise to a question of privilege, which affects every Social Credit member of parliament, based on the report that the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation has allotted free time to the Liberal, the Progressive Conservative and the C.C.F. parties. My point of privilege is that the Social Credit organization in Canada, of which the Social Credit members of parliament form part, has been seriously discriminated against in the allotment of radio time-


Thomas Vien: Order. That is not a question of privilege.


Ernest George Hansell: I shall have something more to say on this at another time.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the order for motions:
Mr. JEAN-FRANCOIS POULIOT (Temis-couata): On the orders of the day, under the subtitle of motions, I read this:
March 7-Further consideration in committee of the whole of the report of the special committee on the revision of standing orders.
On a point of order, sir, I hope this item will be struck off the orders of the day, for the reason that the preamble of the report of the special committee was cremated by the Prime Minister on March 7, and its ashes have gone with the wind. But there is more to it, sir. I do not see how the committee of the whole house could consider the report without first having it sent back to the special committee to strike off the preamble and to number each suggested amendment. What appears now on the orders of the day reminds me of the metal coffin handles that are kept in some houses-
Mr., SPEAKER: We are now on routine proceedings. This matter can be dealt with when the debate in question is resumed. At the moment it is not in order.
Labour Conditions


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. GROTE STIRLING (Yale):: May I ask the Prime Minister whether the statement reported to have been made last evening in Hamilton by the Minister of National Revenue (Mr. Gibson), with regard to a federal election, can be taken as a government statement?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I noticed the statement
made by the Minister of National Revenue, but I did not read it with any degree of care. The statement with respect to the time of a general election will be made by myself. I have already indicated in the house my view on it, and I think the views expressed by my colleagues have been in accordance with what I have said.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. C. E. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: I
have received several air mail letters and telegrams concerning a situation which is reported also in the Ottawa Citizen of March 16, in these words:
Edmonton coal mines will dismiss 250 employees March 23 and the pits will close March 31 unless the federal government subsidy of 50 cents a ton is continued, mine officials said here to-day.
I should like to ask the Minister of Labour if he is doing anything to see that these two hundred and fifty men are kept on the job, or that they will be placed in other occupations if these mines are allowed to close. This matter is causing a great deal of concern out west.


Hon. HUMPHREY MITCHELL (Minister of Labour):: The matter of subsidies to coal mines does not come within the jurisdiction of my department, but I can assure my hon. friend that we are quite capable of meeting that situation through the instrumentality of selective service.	.


Charles Edward Johnston: Probably
the question would be more properly directed to the acting Minister of Finance (Mr. Ralston), or the parliamentary assistant, as to whether that subsidy will be continued.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I was not listening to my
hon. friend's question very closely. Would he repeat it?


Charles Edward Johnston: Will the
subsidy of 50 cents a ton be continued on coal, so that these mines in Alberta may continue operating?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I shall have to get that
information. I had no notice of the question, and I shall answer my hon. friend on Monday.



PROVISIONS FOR FARM HELP IN BRITISH COLUMBIA

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. THOMAS REID (New Westminster):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Labour. Since farming operations have been in effect in British Columbia for some time, and strong representations have come from that province regarding farm labour help, may I ask the minister if any plans have been made or any steps taken looking to the supplying of farm labour, which has been represented as urgently required?


Humphrey Mitchell: Last year we had a very
satisfactory agreement with the government of British Columbia, as was indicated by the resolutions passed by some of the farm organisations in that province. Conversations have been going on since last December between the British Columbia Department of Agriculture and the federal Department of Labour with regard to the plans and policies for the forthcoming season.
I might say that one of the methods we adopted was the movement of people from Alberta,- particularly during the berry season, into the Fraser valley-I think that is what it is called-in British Columbia, And we expect-


Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: To where?


Humphrey Mitchell: DELIVERIES STILL TO BE MADE FROM 1943-44 CROP On the orders of the day:


Mr. G. H. CASTLEDEN (Yorkton):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Trade and Commerce. Large quantities of grain in western Canada are lying in open bins or out in the fields, and it is in danger of being spoiled. Will the minister inform the house what steps, if any, are being made to permit delivery of such grain, so that we may save this food and avoid severe loss to the farmer?


Hon. J. A. MacKINNON (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member gave notice of his question this morning. The matter is one of considerable importance to producers in western Canada at the present time, and I am glad to give the house this information.
According to information recently secured by a survey throughout the west, there were 276 million bushels of wheat, 143 million bushels of oats and 87 million bushels of barley, a total of 506 million bushels, to be delivered from farms within the crop year 1943-44. In addition there are 75 million bushels of wheat over and above the quota of 18 bushels per authorized acre. Up to March 10 the grain already received into elevators has amounted to 179 million bushels of wheat, 77 millions of oats and 59 millions of barley or 62-3 per cent of the total shown by the survey just mentioned. These deliveries leave 97 million bushels of wheat, 66 millions of oats and 28 millions of barley still to come forward. It is the view of the Canadian wheat board that transportation will be available so that the remaining amounts of oats and barley, together with about 100 million bushels of wheat, will be taken into country elevators before the end of this crop year.	,
The board provided last December that damp wheat may be delivered up to 18 bushels per authorized acre and that damp oats, barley and rye up to 20 bushels per acre may be delivered over the existing quota of 10 or 15 bushels per acre. Arrangements are now being made to apply the same delivery privilege to tough grain that has previously been applied to damp grain. There is also an exchange privilege in effect whereby producers may deliver tough and/or damp grain at an elevator for dry grain, paying the difference in value. The board has constantly kept in mind the necessity of saving as much grain as possible and states that no significant losses will occur. The grain remaining to be marketed this year is much smaller than at the same date a year ago and in much better condition.



PAYMENTS ON PARTICIPATION CERTIFICATES, 1943 CROP

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. E. PERLEY (Qu'Appelle):: Some little while ago the minister made an announcement that payments would be made on participation certificates for the 1943 crop during the month of May. Can he state now whether any payments have been made, or will they be made before the end of the month?


James Angus MacKinnon: I am informed that these payments will be started this month.



PENSIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. IAN A. MACKENZIE (Minister of Pensions and National Health): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for St. Paul's (Mr. Ross) raised a question regarding certain delays in reviewing new allowances by the war veterans' allowance board. I have looked up the matter, and I find that new allowances are paid out with all possible expedition and dispatch, and the hon. member was so informed.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
George Alexander Cruickshank: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of National Defence. I did not have a chance to give him notice of it, because I read the paper only as I was coming into the house. However as a gallant ex-soldier, and as the present minister, he will be able to answer me now. In view of the announcement made yesterday by the Department of National Defence on awards for valour, may I ask the minister whether the acting ranks will be confirmed, or, as in so many cases in the last war, will these ranks be held for reinforcing officers?


Hon. J. L. RALSTON (Minister of National Defence):: I do not know the announcement to to which my hon. friend refers. If he will let me take what he has said as a notice of question, I shall answer on Monday.


George Alexander Cruickshank: May I amplify my question for the benefit of the minister? The awards for valour-


Thomas Vien: Order.
Aluminum Ingots



ALUMINUM


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. S. H. KNOWLES (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct the attention of the Minister of Munitions and Supply to what I believe to be a series of errors in an answer to a Question of mine as found at pages 1508 and 1509 of Hansard for yesterday. Those answers had to do with the price of aluminum. They read, in part:
To the United Kingdom: Base price, -16 cents per pound; Escalator price, first quarter, 1943, [DOT]055 cents per pound.
I am sure the minister will agree that what was intended was 16 cents per pound and-


Mr. HOWE:: Make it read dollars instead of cents, and it will be all right.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I checked the matter, and I find the error is to be attributed neither to Hansard nor to the King's Printer, because what is printed in Hansard corresponds with the typewritten copy given to me yesterday.
Then, when the minister is checking that answer I wonder if he would compare it with the material he placed on Hansard on March 10, at page 1346, where he tabled the correspondence with the Aluminum Company^ of Canada, Limited, with regard to the reduction in the price of aluminum. In the correspondence it was indicated that information was in the possession of the Department of Munitions and Supply regarding prices to the United States and Australia. In the answer given yesterday the statement is made that no such information is in the possession of the department. Will the minister reconsider the answer to the question?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Obviously my hon. friend has all the information there is on the subject. There was evidently a mistake of a decimal point in preparing the answer. My hon. friend knows that this should be sixteen cents, not one-sixteenth of a cent per pound. As far as the price of the metal to the United States and Australia is concerned, we know the base price but invoices are sent direct from the company to the purchaser and we do not know the operation of the escalator clause which is determined by the offices that purchase the aluminum.



ST. PATRICK'S DAY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. DANIEL McIVOR (Fort William):: Mr. Speaker, I am sure it is with mingled feelings of regret that we who are away from the land of our birth join with other Irishmen

in celebrating the passing of that great missionary, Saint Patrick. When I think of how the former leader of the opposition, the late Doctor Manion, cabled de Valera to open up bases to assist the allies in their struggle for peace and fair play; when I think of how our own Prime Minister refused to enter into negotiations with de Valera and politely told him, according to the interpretation I put upon it, that he should tell the Germans and the Japanese to go home out of there; when I think of the golden opportunity Eire had-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: -to tell the world that they .supported the cause of freedom and fair play.



WAR APPROPRIATION BILL

[Stage Direction]
PROVISION FOR GRANTING TO HIS MAJESTY Am FOR NATIONAL DEFENCE AND SECURITY
The house resumed from Thursday, March 16, consideration in committee of a resolution to grant to His Majesty certain sums of money for the carrying out of measures consequent upon the existence of a state of war-Mr. Ilsley-Mr. Bradette in the chair.

["It is not carried, and it is eleven o'clock.\nItem stands.\nProgress reported."]
Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Chairman, in presenting the war estimates of the air services branch, it is appropriate that I give hon. members a statement of the views of the government on civil aviation, both domestic and international. At this time the subject is one of unusual interest to the house and to the country. It is well known that the necessities of war, during the past four years, have brought about more in the advancement of the science of aviation than would have been accomplished in a generation of normal progress. The exploits of our airmen overseas and our vast air training plan have contributed much toward making our people air minded. Our accomplishments in the building of military aircraft also have contributed to that end. The need for maintaining rapid communication with our troops overseas has forced us to undertake a transport service across the oceans and to improvise equipment for that purpose. The urgency of war production has caused many business men who were formerly unfamiliar with air travel, to become new customers of our commercial air lines.	_ _	_
During this period of great activity of air travel, we have been devoting our manufacturing capacity to building war planes, as have all other allied countries. We have been wholly unable to provide new equipment for our air lines, such as would satisfy the increasing de-

War Appropriation-Supplies
mands for travel accommodation. Trans-Canada Air Lines had been, operating for some two years prior to the outbreak of war, and had only sufficient equipment to meet the then very limited demands -of the travelling public. To-day, Trans-Canada Air Lines has but little more equipment than when the war began, and is unable to purchase suitable new equipment. When Canada was called upon to provide a mail and an official passenger service across the Atlantic ocean, it could obtain planes for that purpose only by taking Lancaster bombers from our own production line, and converting the bombers for transport use. The result is that the demand for air travel, both inside Canada and across the oceans, greatly exceeds the supply.
To lay a foundation for the present discussion, it may be well to trace, very briefly, the history of civil aviation in Canada.
In the early 1920's, pilots who had received their training in the last war obtained planes, and commenced services into areas of the north country that were then difficult of access, except by air. These services were supported, for the most part, by the mining and petroleum industries. Through the years, these services were extended into air Imes, each serving a series of isolated communities. A substantial part of their revenue was derived from the carnage of mail, and in this period our Post Office Department took an active part in supporting and encouraging so-called "bush operations".
In 1927 a movement was sponsored by the government to encourage the more rapid development of transport by air. Flying schools were organized, across Canada, for the training of pilots, and municipalities were encouraged, and assisted, in the development of local aerodromes. Direct government support was given to flying clubs, and the Post Office Department continued to provide mail revenue for those who were pioneering air transport routes.
In 1930 a change of government occurred, and the attitude of the government toward civil aviation was altered. In the early 1930's many air mail contracts were cancelled. Appropriations for government assistance to civil flying were cut, and civil aviation received a severe setback. However, in 1933, for the purpose of relieving an acute unemployment situation, the government commenced a project of building a series of airports across Canada, by day labour, to form a transcontinental route for military planes. For reasons that I could never understand, the aerodromes were located at thirty-mile intervals and, although civil aviation in the United States was then highly *developed, the plans called for airfields suitable only for small, single-engine planes.
In 1935 the present government came into office, and was confronted with a situation that demanded a clear definition of policy toward civil aviation. Work was in progress on the government's chain of airfields. Municipal airfields, that had been built in the late twenties were not being used. Two alternatives were open; the government could undertake a programme for developing a comprehensive system of transport by air, to serve all parts of Canada, or it could confine government activities in this field to regulation, and let private enterprise plan its own expansion. The former alternative was chosen.
Plans were under way to merge the Department of Railways and Canals with the Department of Marine, to form the Department of Transport, and, with the consent of the then minister of national defence, those plans were enlarged to provide for moving the control of civil aviation from the Department of National Defence into the newly formed Department of Transport. Accordingly, a bill creating the Department of Transport was approved by parliament at the session of 1936.
On being appointed Minister of Transport, I lost no time in laying plans for an expansion of civil aviation in Canada. To acquire a background for doing so, I visited the United States, and travelled over its airlines for the purpose of making a study of air transport, and the facilities required in that connection. To provide a grouping of services directly related to transport by air, the air services branch of the Department of Transport was created, to include the newly acquired civil aviation division, and the meteorological division and the radio division of the former department of marine. The new branch was placed under the direction of a capable officer of the department, who was instructed to expand all three services to meet the requirements of a coast to coast interurban air transport service, following the latest American practice.
The Trans-Canada Air Lines Act was presented to parliament in the session of 1937. The intention of the government had been to unite the strongest transportation interests in Canada to undertake this new venture in transportation, and with that in view I approached the Canadian National Railways, the Canadian Pacific Railway company, and Canadian Airways, Ltd., the latter being by far the strongest of the air transport companies then operating. These companies were invited to provide the needed capital for, and assume the ownership of, the airline company, the government to assume responsibility for building adequate airports and the necessary communication system. Each of the three
War Appropriation-Supplies

component companies was to share equally in the ownership of the air line, and each was to have two directors on a board of nine, the government to appoint three directors on account of its investment in airports and communications.- The financial provisions were the same as those finally adopted and now in force, which made the company a nonprofit organization that was also protected against loss of its capital.
The Canadian Pacific Railway Company and Canadian Airways objected to having three government directors on the board, and at the last moment these two companies withdrew their support, with the result that the Trans-Canada Air Lines Act provided for full ownership of the enterprise by Canadian National Railways. It is worth while stressing the fact, at this time, that the Canadian Pacific Railway Company and Canadian Airways were each offered one-third participation in the Trans-Canada Air Lines enterprise, and that both refused- to participate in a company with the identical financial arrangements that now apply to Trans-Canada Air Lines.
The newly-formed Trans-Canada Air Lines lost no time in organizing for operation. The president of Canadian National Railways was made president of the company; three other directors of the railway were appointed directors of the new company; and three directors were appointed from the government service, two from the Department of Transport, and one from the Post Office Department. The directors chose a general manager in the person of Phillip G. Johnson, now president of Boeing Aircraft Company, and one of the leading business men in the United States. Mr. Johnson had1 been a pioneer in transport by air in -the United States, and was perhaps the man best qualified by ability and experience to plan the new system.. He came to Canada, at what was for him a very nominal salary, and spent two years here as operating vice-president. His ambition was to make Trans-Canada Air Lines the finest air transportation system in North America, and although he returned1 to the United States in 1940, his influence on the management is still very noticeable.
The work of building a chain of modern airports and of gathering and training an operating personnel was pressed forward- vigorously, with the result that Trans-Canada Air Lines was placed in operation early in 1938. Traffic built up very rapidly, and Trans-Canada grew until at the outbreak of war its services extended eastward from Vancouver to Moncton, southward from Toronto to New York and from Vancouver to Seattle, and northward from Lethbridge to Edmonton. In the early war years, military requirements made it

necessary to extend the service eastward to Halifax, and from Moncton to Sydney and on to Newfoundland, and westward to Victoria. Increasing traffic has made the line an outstanding financial success. Its safety record is the best of any air line operating anywhere. Had it been possible during the war years to provide equipment to meet travel demands, the financial position of the company would have been still further improved. At the moment, if we could double our equipment, indications are that we would have every seat occupied.
While the development of Trans-Canada Air Lines was in progress, an effort was made to improve the position of the bush lines, which had been left in a greatly weakened position by government action in the period from 1930 to 1935. While these lines were supported by renewed postal subsidies, they operated under conditions of unrestricted competition, with the result that, as soon as an operation was profitable, a second, and perhaps a third, operation would be undertaken by other owners over the same route. In an effort to protect the lines against cut-throat competition, an amendment to the Railway Act was introduced in the Senate in 1937, when it failed to pass, and in the House of Commons in 1938, when it duly became law. The effect of this legislation was to allocate routes to companies then in the field, and to prevent competition on these routes from newly-formed companies. At this time, sixteen separate transportation companies were licensed for commercial operation in Canada, using 244 commercial aircraft, of which a large number were flown and operated by their owners.
The first year of the war saw a sharp curtailment in gold mining operations, particularly those in remote areas, with the result that traffic for these independent airlines was sharply curtailed. I think I can say that the operation of these air lines, many of which were financed by public subscription, had never been profitable. With the curtailment of traffic before mentioned, these small operators were faced with the necessity of either finding a buyer, or of closing down. At this stage, the Canadian Pacific Railway company entered the field of transportation by air, and bought the stock of all the independent operators, thus obtaining by the end of 1941 a monopoly in the field of transportation by air except for Trans-Canada Air Lines. Since then, one new company has entered the field in the maritime provinces, namely, Maritime Central Airways, this being the only operation not owned either by Trans-Canada or by Canadian Pacific Air Lines.

War Appropriation-Supplies
The building of the Alaska highway was the cause of great activity in air transport in a territory that was being served by Canadian Pacific Air Lines, and that company was assisted by the United States Army in obtaining new and modern airplanes, from United States sources, with the result that the equipment of the company was augmented considerably at a time when all other air lines on this continent found it impossible to buy new equipment. Canadian Pacific Air Lines has continued to give service to the points formerly served by its component companies.
The preceding statement brings us up to date on the position of transport by air within Canada.
It had been contemplated that Trans-Canada Air Lines would be a non-competitive, nonprofit system of transportation by air, planned to avoid the duplication of services that were the outgrowth of competitive building for profit in the field of surface transportation. The Trans-Canada Air Lines Act contemplated that Trans-Canada Air Lines would operate all the principal routes parallel to the international boundary, as well as Canada's interest in all international routes, and these on a non-competitive basis. The field of routes into Canada's northland, as well as the field of air service in the settled areas complementary to the Trans-Canada operation, was left to private enterprise. The reason for this is not hard to explain. Trans-Canada was to be a high standard operation, competitive with paralleling transcontinental air transport services in the United States. Canada, having one-twelfth the population of the United States, could support one service of this type, as against three similar parallel services in the United States, but, obviously, to have a second coast to coast service in Canada would be wasteful and unjustifiable. Service to the public must be the paramount consideration, and it seemed obvious that the cost of a noncompetitive, non-profit service was the lowest that could be offered the public. An impartial analysis of the situation to-day leads to no other conclusion. However, the newly formed Canadian Pacific Air Lines lost no time in challenging the non-competitive position of Trans-Canada Air Lines, and in reaching out for new franchises; this at a time when it alone seemed to be able to buy new and modern equipment.
To clarify the situation, the Prime Minister made a statement with respect to policy as to domestic and international aviation in this House of Commons, which is reported in Hansard of April 2, 1943. The statement sets out with great clarity the views of this government, with respect to future development of
.' ' " "	
both domestic and international aviation. The policy then enunciated continues to be the policy of this government.
This statement of policy, I regret to say, failed to bring about confirmation to government policy in the development of privately owned air services within Canada, nor did it "end intervention of private interests in the international field. It is becoming obvious that ownership of airways by our two competing railway systems implies extension of railway competition into transport by air, regardless of the government's desire to avoid competition between air services. In the old days, competitive railway building developed pressure methods for obtaining new franchises. Such methods must not have a place in the development of our airways.
The government desires the rapid development of air transport services in order, among other reasons, to offer post-war employment to Royal Canadian Air Force personnel. Canada's northland was pioneered by small operators, who were content to enlarge their operations only as warranted by the development of the area they served. The government believes that feeder line operations, and pioneer lines into our northland, can best be developed as small operations. Our returning airmen will not be satisfied, in entering this new field of employment, to serve only as salaried employees. In this new medium of transportation, there must be a place reserved for small business enterprise.
Accordingly, after full consideration, the government has decided that the railways shall not exercise any monopoly of air services. Steps will be taken to require our railways to divest themselves of ownership of air lines, to the end that, within a period of one year from the ending of the European war, transport by air will be entirely separate from surface transportation. In the meantime, no new air routes other than government operated routes will be allocated to airlines owned by any railway or other operator of surface transportation. The term " surface transportation " includes railways, shipping companies, and highway transport companies.
The United States Civil Aeronautics Act of 1938 provides that no common carrier (that is, surface carrier) shall own, manage, or operate any air carrier, unless specific provision has been given by the civil aeronautics board. Apparently, the principle is well established in the United States that surface carriers are not permitted to engage in air transport business. I mention this to indicate that the problem which has arisen in Canada is not new on this continent.
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In speaking in the House of Commons in the debate on the Trans-Canada Air Lines bill, reported on pages 2216 and 2217 of Hansard of 1937, I gave the following reason for making Trans-Canada Air Lines a subsidiary of Canadian National Railways:
"After the consideration of these matters, the government has decided that its agency for transportation, the Canadian National Railways, should be the means of organizing this company, just as it was used as the means for operating such shipping as the government owned and the means of operating other government transportation facilities. . . .
I think we are getting the best features of government ownership without the obligation of direct government operation which in the past has been troublesome."
While I have had no cause to regret the step taken at that time, the entry of a privately owned railway into the field of air transport, has made it apparent that the advantage of government ownership "without the obligation of direct government operation" does not compensate for the disadvantage of introducing into air transport the competitive methods of the railways. Therefore, it will be necessary to divorce Trans-Canada Air Lines from Canadian National Railways and operate the former as a government company. Canadian National Railways have given splendid administration to Trans-Canada Air Lines, and personally I regret the necessity for the separation.
At the moment any expansion of Canada's civil aviation, except to meet urgent war requirements, is unwarranted, if for no other reason than that all available equipment is now required to operate existing services, and new equipment is impossible to obtain without diversion of effort from the war. A paramount reason for halting expansion at this time is that the young men, who should have a prominent part in any such expansion, are overseas on combat duty. We can all picture the resentment of these men if, on their return to Canada, they found that all profitable air routes had been preempted in their absence.
However, even though immediate expansion is not possible, it is not too early to plan for an orderly and rapid expansion of our domestic aviation when the proper time comes. To this end, the air services branch has been studying traffic possibilities in all areas of Canada, for the purpose of planning new air routes that will justify airline operation. Alternative plans are now being studied to determine a method of allocating these valuable franchises, in the best interests of Canada, and of our returning airmen. I am confident that the proper moment for undertaking expansion of our air services will find us not unprepared.	*
[Mr. Howe.l
Prior to the war, Canada had a small, but active, airplane construction industry. The need for providing training planes for our air training plan, and later, the need for building combat planes, has expanded this industry enormously. * The industry is now devoting some attention to post-war transport airplanes. One airplane, of pre-war Canadian design, the Noorduyn Norseman, is still the outstanding single-engine transport plane of the present period, and is now being manufactured in large quantities for war transport purposes. Several units of the industry are at work on designs for transport planes of larger size. We have come to the conclusion that the task of designing a four-engined plane, suitable for both post-war domestic traffic on transcontinental routes, and for international traffic, is beyond the present capacity of our industry, having in mind probable limitations of time. Therefore, we have acquired the rights to build a plane that is considered by our experts to be the probable best plane of the next five years at least. Wh-ile the building of this airplane will be undertaken immediately, the plane will not be released to our airlines until new planes of similar type are released to domestic airlines in the United States. Therefore, I think I can say that needed steps have been taken to protect Canadian air transport against its post-war airplane requirements, and this by planes to be built in Canada. A vigorous airplane construction industry is an essential complement to Canada's post-war aviation' plans.
The present machinery for allocating new air routes, and for regulating rates and _ schedules on these routes, is being studied in the light of the experience of the past several years. The government believes that the present machinery can be improved as an instrument for dealing with the developments of the post-war period. It is proposed to establish a new board, to be called the air transport board, which will confine all its activities to air traffic, and which, in addition to performing the regulatory duties now lodged with the board of transport commissioners, will be charged with the responsibility for advising the government on ways and means of bringing about a rapid and well-planned expansion of transport by air. The proposed board will examine the needs for new commercial services, and make recommendations for their establishment and expansion, in both the domestic and international fields; receive applications for new services and issue commercial licences; establish tariffs and regulate rates; examine the ownership, financial structure, operations, and financial position of car-

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riers; make recommendations for needed financial assistance; advise the government on matters affecting the operation of existing aerodromes; report on the need for new aerodromes; and perform such other allied duties as may be determined.
It is felt that the creation of a board, to be concerned solely with transport by air will ensure prompt attention to all matters, affecting air transport, that may call for consideration by the government, and be of great assistance to government, and to private enterprise, in the post-war period.
The end of the war will find Canada with some 200 airfields, built to modem standards, and of dimensions ample for serving domestic and international traffic. These aerodromes are, for the most part, adjacent to our centres of population, and many of them are now interconnected by communication services of the type necessary for day and night operation of airplanes. New airfields will be required from time to time, but lack of suitable airfields will not interfere unduly with the establishment of new air services. A chain of modem airfields extends from coast to coast, serving practically all our larger centres of population. Another' chain of airports extends northward to Alaska, while still another extends eastward to Labrador and Newfoundland. We are in a happy position in the matter of airfields for our post-war civil aviation.
I now pass on to a discussion of international aviation.
In the field of international aviation, the geographical position of Canada is one that demands that Canada be given an important place among the nations of the world. The short international routes between the centres of population of the northern hemisphere, almost without exception, pass over Canadian territory. My colleague the Minister of National Defence for Air (Mr. Power) has given hon. members a graphic statement of the part that Canadian airmen are taking in the war against the axis, in many combat areas. The young men so engaged will be internationally minded. In the post-war period, an aggressive air policy can provide an occupation for many of those pilots, navigators, radio electricians and airplane mechanics who are now carrying the war into enemy countries.
Surely this is a field that can offer opportunity, adventure, and a new challenge to the energies and minds of our fighting airmen.
Hon. members may wish to know exactly what Canada's position is with regard to international air transport agreements binding upon Canada. For this reason I will include a brief resume of the present position in this respect.
Canada was a signatory in 1919 of the multilateral convention on the regulation of aerial navigation which came into force in 33 states, and of various protocols amending or supplementing this convention from 1920 to 1929. These agreements dealt largely with air regulations, and there appears now- to be general agreement that this whole field must be brought under the control of a new and expanded international authority.
The first major agreement regarding the actual operation of international air services, however, in which Canada participated, was the agreement between the United Kingdom, Canada, Ireland and Newfoundland, in 1935 and 1936, providing for the initiation of transAtlantic air services. Under this arrangement, the British company, Imperial Airways, now known as British Overseas Airways, was to carry out experimental flights on the north Atlantic route, to Canada by way of Ireland and Newfoundland. Subsequently a joint operating company, owned by the United Kingdom, Canada and Ireland, was to be established to carry on a regular air service. Imperial Airways was to be the majority shareholder 'n this joint company, and was to control commercial, technical : ,nd operating matters.
While the United States was not a party to the arrangement, the four governments concerned agreed that in return for landing and transit rights in the United States for Imperial Airways, or for the joint company, each government would grant transit and landing rights to Pan-American Airways for a north Atlantic service. Each government also agreed that it would not, without the consent of the others, grant similar rights on this route to any other companies over a period of 15 years.
The facilities required under this agreement, which includes airports, radio and1 meteorological services, and other aids to navigation, have been provided by the countries concerned. Canada, by special wartime arrangement with Newfoundland, has taken over Newfoundland's responsibilities in this connection. The service envisaged by Pan-American at that time is in operation, and permits have been granted to Pan-American Airways by t'he governments concerned.
On the other hand, while certain experimental flights were undertaken, after some delay, by Imperial Airways, no regular British services were established on the north Atlantic prior to the war and the joint operating company was never set up. Meanwhile, various other transatlantic services have been, and are being, established outside the agreement, to meet wartime exigencies. American Export Airlines is operating a regular commercial air transport service, under temporary wartime

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permits from the governments concerned'. The air transport commands of the United Kingdom, and the United States, are operating frequent non-commercial services. Trans-Canada Air Lines, after extending its transcontinental commercial service to Newfoundland in 1942 by agreement with the Newfoundland government, later proceeded to initiate a regular noncommercial service across the north Atlantic, in accordance with notes exchanged between the Canadian and British governments on July 15 and 16, 1943, and the Canadian and Newfoundland governments on July 19 and 30, 1943. This service has been established solely for war purposes, and the arrangements for it apply for the duration of t'he war and six months thereafter. It carries only official passengers and freight,-particularly mail for the troops-and is, of course, providing valuable experience for Canada in the operation of trans-oceanic air services. The R.C.A.F. has also established a direct mail service from Canada to [DOT] the United Kingdom and to the Mediterranean theatre of operation.
In view of the fact that the joint-operating company envisaged in the 1935-36 agreement was never set up and in view of the material changes in circumstances which have already taken place since the agreement was drawn up, the Canadian government is of the opinion that the agreement can no longer be considered applicable to present conditions. The other parties to the agreement have been notified of our views.
Subsequently in 1938 and 1939, as the air links between Canada and the United States began to assume increasing importance, certain technical agreements were concluded between the two countries dealing with air navigation, certificates of competency, certificates of airworthiness and the use of radio. These agreements established certain standardized practices to facilitate the movement of crossborder air traffic.
More important, however, was the agreement between Canada and the United States on air transport services effected by exchange of notes on August 18, 1939. Under this agreement, eadh party agreed that air carriers of the other would be permitted1 to operate non-stop over the territory of the other between two domestic points. (Non-stop services between United States and Alaska were to be dealt with in a separate understanding.) It is under this clause, for example, that Canada posseses rights to fly from- Quebec to New Brunswick over the territory of Maine, and that United States air lines fly from Buffalo to Detroit over Canadian territory.
In addition, each party agreed to grant operating rights to the air carrier enterprises

of the other for sendees between Canada and the United States as decided between the aeronautical authorities of the two countries, the purpose being to maintain a fair balance between operations of each country. Transportation of mail was to be subject to direct agreement between the postal officials of both countries. This exchange of notes was to remain in force for two years, and thereafter until terminated_on six months' notice given by either government.
The implementation of arrangements provided for in this exchange of notes was covered in a further exchange of notes on November 22 and December 2, 1940, between the two countries. Under this second exchange, crossborder routes between Canada and the United States were divided between the two countries.
This agreement, which did not cover services between Canada and Alaska, was to remain in effect until December 31, 1942. Subsequently, since neither government felt that war time was the proper time for reconsideration or alteration of the agreement, it was renewed by an exchange of notes on March 4, 1943, for the duration of the war subject to cancellation by either party on six months' notice after a period of sixty days consultation.
The arrangements of 1940 which are still in force provide the over-all framework for the operation of air services between Canada and the United States. Under this arrangement, the through service from Toronto to New York is operated by Trans-Canada Air Lines; while the following United States companies operate into Canada: Northeast Airlines from Moncton to Bangor; Colonial Airlines from New York to Montreal; American Airlines from Buffalo to Toronto, and from Buffalo to Windsor en route to Detroit; Northwest Airlines from Fargo to Winnipeg; Western Airlines from Great Falls to Lethbridge; United Airlines from Seattle to Vancouver; and PanAmerican Airways from Fairbanks and Juneau, Alaska, to Whitehorse.
Some persons have suggested that Canada came out of this bargain badly. To this, I would answer that having in mind the availability of planes and air facilities, it was a fair arrangement to meet the circumstances at the time. We can look forward to the further development and expansion of trans-frontier services between the two countries and may expect to see both Canadian and United States lines participating in this expansion in accordance with whatever arrangements may be agreed upon by the two governments.
A number of war-time agreements have been concluded between Canada and other countries for the operation of special war-time transportation services. For example, Pan-

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American Airways has been given a temporary permit to operate over Canadian territory, between Seattle, and Juneau, Alaska. In granting this permission, on January 26, 1944, the Canadian government informed the United States government that it proposed at a future date to take up the question of permission for a Canadian service to operate into Alaska. These agreements are numerous and reasons of military security make it impossible for me to go into detail regarding them. They have been concluded in order to provide rapid transportation and communication by air for the more effective prosecution of the war. They are, generally speaking, valid for the duration of the war and six months thereafter and operations carried out under them will create no vested rights for the post-war period. As these agreements affect the United States, licences have been granted only to the United States army and navy for non-revenue operations.
The civil aeronautics board in the United States has recently announced that it is considering the opening of hearings on applications for new air services from the United States to Canada. So that there will be no misunderstanding, I wish to make it clear that the existing framework of air services between Canada and the United States is fixed in accordance with the exchanges of notes to which I have referred. While the civil aeronautics board may receive applications for new air services to Canada from various American airlines and may find it expedient to decide which of these it would be desirable and necessary in the United States' interest to grant, any new services on a commercial basis between the two countries cannot be initiated without the consent of the two governments and any development of such new services will involve a reconsideration of the existing arrangements between the two. Canada does not consider applications from airlines of another country unless forwarded by the government of that country through diplomatic channels.
Canada has carried out certain construction and development work in connection with aviation in Newfoundland and Labrador. Here the agreements involved have been of a military nature dealing with military problems related to the defence of this continent and assistance in the battle of the north Atlantic.
The briefest fashion in which I can describe the situation which will exist at the end of the war is that the position and sovereignty of the Canadian government have been protected completely in all arrangements that have been made; that special wartime arrangements will come to an end at or shortly after the conclusion of hostilities and developments during
the war will create no vested interest in air transport or air facilities in Canada for any other government.
We believe that in the field of international air transport our interest lies in a liberal course of cooperation with other nations. This decision has been reached in view of the great importance of air transport in the future. Air transport is more than just the latest and fastest method of transporting passengers and goods. It is a revolutionary development which has already profoundly affected the civilization of the world. No one can predict with any degree of certainty or precision the nature and extent of the contribution which it may make to the future security and prosperity of the peoples of the world. It is our intention to make every effort to ensure that the framework within which the international air transport of the future functions, will be designed to promote international cooperation and not to foster international bitterness.
The demands of war have telescoped into four or five years the growth that might normally have taken air transport a generation to achieve. Canada's size is shrinking, while our long 3,000-mile frame is filling out, as air transport opens up the Canadian north. All Canadians are becoming neighbours and Canada is being given a new basis for unity. What is true of relations between the various parts of Canada is true also of relations between the nations of the world. These too are being brought closer together. Moreover, new regional connections are being developed and the boundaries of old regions washed away. Because of the geographical location of the land masses of the earth, that section of the globe stretching out from the north pole to a degree of latitude roughly equivalent to the Mediterranean and the southern border of the United States will probably be the most important for the air transport of the future. In this northern region, Canada occupies a strategic position, for it stands athwart most of the air routes linking North America with Europe and Asia. This position carries with it great responsibilities and great opportunities.
As I have already mentioned, on April 2nd last year the Prime Minister gave a statement of the government's position with regard to international air transport, making it clear that our policy would be one of international cooperation and collaboration and that we would support whatever policy seemed best calculated to serve not only the immediate national interests of Canada, but our overriding interest in the establishment of an international order which will prevent the outbreak of another world war.
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Behind this statement lies a recognition of the duty of the Canadian government to do what it can to avoid the two chief weaknesses in the pre-war organization of international air transport. In the first place, it was a cause of serious rivalries and disputes between nations. In the second place, and closely connected1 to the first weakness, lines were run at an uneconomic cost, necessitating large national subsidies. Some countries refused to permit airlines to cross the air space above their territory, necessitating costly detours. Others refused landing rights, as well as transit rights. The necessity for hard and persistent bilateral bargaining resulted, especially in Europe, in the establishment of so many competing national services that air transport became highly uneconomic, and lines were heavily subsidized at the expense of national taxpayers.
Behind much of this friction lay considerations of national prestige, but more especially of national security. Civil air transport fleets, and civil aircraft industries, represent a war potential, a reserve both of personnel and of industrial capacity which is all-important in time of war. The truth of this has been obvious in the present conflict. The emphasis in the pre-war period upon security aspects of civil air transport was, therefore, natural, and goes far to explain the failure of nations at that time to agree upon a method of effective international control of international air services. Because of the rapid development of aviation since the outbreak of war the international rivalries which would develop in the future after the concldsion of hostilities would be even sharper than those of the past, unless some improvement is effected.
The decision which the united nations must make . in the near future in the post-war organization of air transport thus is vital. An enlightened settlement will go a long way toward establishing a lasting peace, and a new world order of security. It can constitute a model for the settlement of . other difficult international problems, and create an atmosphere in which the settlement of these other problems will become easier. Failure to devise a working system of cooperation and collaboration will not only lead to endless friction in the field of air transport, but will prejudice the establishment of an effective world security organization.
From the point of view of practical politics, the problem is to find some method of international control which will serve the desired objectives, and yet be generally acceptable to all. The task is not an easy one. For many months it has been the subject of exhaustive study by Canadian officials and of

active consideration by the government. I think that a policy which is designed to. meet these ends has been worked out, and that the Canadian representatives in future international discussions on air transport will enter those discussions well prepared, and with a clear view of the type of arrangement best designed to meet the needs of Canada for the development of international air services and provide for a fair share of international air transport, and at the same time establish an atmosphere of working-cooperation among all other interested nations.
It is obvious that air regulations dealing with such matters as traffic rules, safety and navigational aids should be, as nearly' as possible, uniform throughout the world, and that an international authority must be set up and given the power to prepare regulations which would be accepted as standards by the members of that authority. This alone, however, is not enough. I have already stated that the difficulties, in the pre-war period, arose because certain nations exercised their sovereignty over the air, above their countries, in a fashion designed to hinder the development of air transport, and foster ill will. Accordingly, I think that we must be prepared to subscribe to the granting of general freedom of transit for international air services, on a universal basis, so that national air services will automatically possess the right to cross the territory of other nations, en route to their destinations, and to land in other countries for refuelling and reservicing, without having to request the specific permission of each government concerned. However, in order to prevent misuse of this freedom, it would appear necessary to grant, to some international authority, power to supervise the manner in which it is carried out. Moreover, in thus establishing freedom of transit, countries such as Canada, which are strategically placed, will be making a very great contribution to an effective international system, particularly when, like Canada, their population is not great, and the amount of traffic which they have to offer for international carriage would consequently not be large. On the other hand, this right of transit would be of particular benefit to those nations, which have a great deal of potential traffic for international air services, but are less strategically located.
It would seem reasonable, therefore, to suggest that freedom of air transit should be extended to cover, as well, a certain amount of freedom of carriage of goods and passengers, in order to enable all nations to share in a proportion of the international traffic

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available, without having to go in for all the bilateral bargaining which so confused the pre-war situation. It would seem necessary, accordingly, that each nation should at least possess the right to carry passengers and cargo from its own territory to other countries, and to bring back from those other countries passengers and cargo which are intended for its own territory. This would mean that the nations of the world, operating international air services, would not only be unhampered in the movement of their aircraft across the territories of other countries, but would also have a certain amount of traffic available to their own air services, without the necessity of bilateral bargaining, thus increasing the chances of reasonable economic operation. In order to prevent a helter-skelter of airways developing, each country would, of course, designate the routes across its territory which the airlines of other countries must follow, just as it does for its own domestic services.
While international air transport will be a great and important factor in the future, nevertheless one airplane can do a great deal of work, and, in tl\e post-war period, all the air traffic available may be carried by a comparatively small number of aircraft. It would not seem desirable that each nation should be allowed to establish as many international services, in as many areas, as it wished, thus bringing about a useless, uneconomic and competitive situation which could only lead to trouble. Not only should some international air transport authority supervise the administration of the freedoms, and rights, suggested above, but the authority should also have power to regulate international air services, in order to prevent the dangers of unnecessary and uneconomic duplication. Some such method might be used as control of rates and schedules, and licensing. Because an authority, established on a universal basis, might have difficulty in giving due consideration to the special needs of particular regions, it would be desirable that it work through regional groupings or councils.
If any such framework for international cooperation in the field of air transport should be developed, and I think it desirable that it should, it would seem that cross-border services, such as those between Canada and the United States, should be considered in a special category, and dealt with specially by the two countries concerned, since services originating in the one country and terminating in the other are primarily trans-frontier extensions of domestic air services.
The Canadian government is of the opinion that some form of organization along the
lines suggested above would go far toward meeting the needs of the world for the establishment of effective international cooperation, in the provision of efficient and economical air services, and, at the same time, provide for the fair and equitable participation of Canada in these air services.
One year ago the Prime Minister said, "The government sees no good reason for changing its policy that Trans-Canada air lines is the sole Canadian agency which may operate international air services." This is a matter of purely domestic concern, and this decision is, in the opinion of the government, the one best calculated to serve the interests and needs of the Canadian people. It has, however, no bearing upon any decision of this type that may be made bj' other governments. The choice of instruments for the operation of international air services by the countries concerned is, and must remain, a matter of purely domestic decision. Each country must decide for itself whether its airline companies operating international air services are to be privately owned, or state owned, whether there is to be one single national company or several.
I	should like to say a word at this point regarding international discussions on air transport policy. As members of this house are aware, there was a preliminary exchange of views in London last October among the members of the commonwealth, in which a Canadian delegation under my chairmanship participated. A complete airing of ideas and opinions, with regard to international air transport after the war took place, and provided a useful introduction to the broader discussion which will take place in due course. Canada, of course, expects to participate in these further discussions also, and is at the moment taking part in discussions with the United Kingdom and the United States regarding the holding of further exploratory conversations. No final decisions were taken in London, but I may say that it was evident from the outset that all participants had the same general objectives in view-the objectives which I have described earlier in this statement-and that there was a broad basis of general agreement as to the way these objectives might best be attained. All the participants were desirous of improving the air services between their territories, and agreed that such development must take place within an international framework, and that closed discriminatory systems could only promote disharmony, and endanger the chances of reaching that broad agreement which is necessary.
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Following the conversations in London, a statement was issued to the press, reading as follows:
"The conference with the dominions and India on civil air transport, which has been meeting in London since Monday last, concluded its 'sessions this morning. The conversations were informal and exploratory, and the conclusions reached are subject to confirmation by the governments represented at the conference. Unanimous agreement was reached as to the recommendations which should be made regarding the lines on which civil aviation should be developed after the war, and as to the contribution which the governments of the commonwealth and empire could make towards international cooperation in this field."
The chairman of the London meeting was Lord Beaverbrook, who is a member of the United Kingdom government charged by Mr. Churchill with responsibility for the coordination of post-war ci-vil air transport policy. Speaking in the House of Lords a week after the conclusion of the London meetings, Lord Beaverbrook emphasized the unanimous agreement which the conference had reached on every issue presented to it. He said that those isues were " adequate for testing immediate opinion in relation to civil aviation." He added that it had been agreed that " the international air transport authority should be intimately associated with and responsible to any united nations security organization which might be established."
In summary, I may say that the Canadian government is determined that Canada, by its participation in the framing of the general settlement of air transport, will make as great a contribution as possible to the successful solution of this problem. Our representatives in the international discussions, therefore, will be authorized to support or initiate such proposals as. in the government's opinion, will be likely to result in the establishment of an international air transport authority, with effective powers, supported by all governments concerned, which will further international cooperation and goodwill, ensure that international air routes and services are divided fairly and equitably among all member nations, meet the needs of the peoples of the world for efficient and economical air transport, and contribute to the establishment and maintenance of a permanent system of general security.
Before taking my seat I wish to table a copy of a tentative and preliminary draft of an international air transport convention. I have referred to the work of the officials of the government and the government itself in the preparation of this as a basis for further study at international discussions. Since portions of this have been made public in another country

and have been printed in the press, it has been thought wise to table the document here. As there will be a great deal of interest in this document I ask the unanimous consent of the committee to have it published in Hansard.


The CHAIRMAN:: By unanimous consent of the committee.
DRAFT INTERNATIONAL Am TRANSPORT CONVENTION
Contents	Page
Summary	 1626
Preamble	 1627
A rfipIpq[DOT]
I The authority	 1628
II	Obligations of member states	
1628III	The assembly	
1628IV	The board	
1629V	Regional councils	
1629VI	Licences	
1630VII	Airports and other ground facilities_	1630VIII	Finance	
1631IX	Relationship to the internationalsecurity organization	
1631X	Joint operating organizations andpooling	
1631XI	Other agreements and arrangements..	1631XII	Amendments, ratification, etc	
1632XIII	Definitions	
1632XIV	Provisional article	
1632Annex	
1633
It is assumed that an overriding treaty of peace will determine the obligations and rights of the defeated powers under this convention.
Summary
1.	The convention establishes an international air transport authority, gives it a constitution and endows it with powers. The authority has the normal structure of an international organization: an assembly representing all the member states and a small executive committee which is called a Board of Directors. In each regibn a regional council is set up to deal with matters of regional concern.
2.	The authority is charged with the duty of planning and fostering the organization of international air services so as
(a)	to make the most effective contribution to the establishment and maintenance of a permanent system of general security,
(b)	to meet the needs of the peoples of the world for efficient and economical air transport. and
(e) to ensure that, so far as possible, international air routes and services are divided fairly and equitably between the various member states.
3.	The convention is an agreement between states and is not concerned with such domestic questions as whether the international air services of the various member states should be government-owmed or privately-owned or whether a state should have more than one government-owmed or privately-owned airline company engaged in international air transport. These are matters of domestic policy which each individual member state decides for itself. They are, therefore, outside the scope of the international convention.

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4.	The number of votes which each member state can cast in the international air transport assembly varies from one to six depending on its importance in international air transport. The board of twelve members, which is elected by the assembly, must include at least one national of each of the eight member states of chief importance in international air transport.
5.	A company wishing to operate an international air service makes application first to its own government. The goverrnment, if it approves of the application, forwards it to the appropriate regional council. The regional council holds formal hearings on the application before deciding whether the applicant should receive a licence and, if so, under what conditions.
G. The regional council has power to issue a licence entitling a company not only to
(a)	freedom of air transit over the airways of all the member states of the region but also to
(b)	the right to land at airports in the region for refuelling, repairs and in emergency,
(c)	the right to carry passengers, mail and cargo from the home state to any other member state and
(d)	the right to bring back passengers, mails and cargo to the home state from any other member state.
7.	A state which considers that a decision by a regional council is unfair has the right to appeal to the board of directors and the board can set aside or modify the decision.
8.	The application for a licence from an airline which wishes to operate a service passing over territory under the jurisdiction of two or more regional councils does not go to all the regional councils concerned but goes to the board.
9.	The authority, acting through either the board or a regional council is given power to determine frequencies of service on each route, to allocate quotas between the Various member states and to determine rates of carriage for passengers and cargo.
10.	On questions affecting world security the international air transport authority is made subject to the international security organization which is to be set up by the united nations. That organization may, in the interests of world security, order the international air transport board to withdraw, suspend or modify a licence, take certain measures concerning technical services, operating facilities and bases or set up one or more operating organizations to operate the air services on certain routes or in certain regions.
11.	Two or more member states may decide that the best way of operating all or some of the air services between them is not by rival companies each carrying a national flag but by a joint organization. The member states are not prevented from establishing such joint operating organizations. Indeed the board or a regional council may recommend to the member states concerned that they pool the air services on certain routes or in certain regions or constitute joint operating organizations to perform certain air services. A state has the right to participate in a joint operating organization either through its government or through an airline company or companies designated by its government. The companies
may, at the sole discretion of the state concerned, be state-owned or partly state-owned or privately-owned.
12.	Services between two contiguous states, such as Canada and the United States, are excepted from the provisions of the convention and are left to be dealt with by agreements between the two states concerned. Contiguous states may, however, by mutual consent, give the international air transport authority jurisdiction over the services between them.
13.	In order that the air regulations throughout the world should be as uniform as possible, an agreed set of regulations will be drawn up by the international air transport assembly and brought into force by each member state. These regulations will cover such matters as air safety, rules of the air, competency of air crew, ground signals, meteorological procedure,
' navigational aids, communications, airworthiness, national registration and identification of aircraft, carriage of dangerous goods and salvage.
14.	The aircraft licensed by the board or the regional councils 'will be assured wherever they go in the world of being able to use adequate airports and other ground facilities on payment of reasonable fees and charges. Member states may elect to bear all or a portion of the costs of constructing and maintaining the necessary facilities. If a member state does not so elect, the costs are advanced by the board and borne by the board or apportioned among states using the facilities. The board may require, in return for advancement of costs a reasonable share in the supervision of the construction work and in the control of the airports and other facilities. If a member state so requests the board may itself provide, man and maintain any or all the airports and other facilities which it requires on the territory of that state and may impose reasonable fees and charges for their use.
15.	The expenses of the international air transport authority wall be borne by the member states in proportion to the number of votes at their disposal in the assembly, provided that those expenses of a regional air transport council which are properly chargeable to the states participating in that council, will be borne by those states.
16.	Some time will be required after the coming into force of the convention before the international air transport authority is in full working order. The assembly must meet, the board must be elected, the regional councils constituted, their rules of procedure agreed upon. Certain temporary arrangements are therefore contemplated to cover the inital period of existence of the authority. The convention does not terminate the rights of companies now engaged ininternational air transport. These companies are given two years to secure licenses from the authority. Furthermore, airline companies designated in a schedule to the convention are deemed to possess licences issued by the authority to operate routes designated in the schedule and these licences remain valid until modified or withdrawn by the board or the competent regional council.
Preamble
The governments signatory hereto agree to the establishment of an international air transport authority.	*
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Article I The Authority
Section 1
An authority is hereby established to be known as the international air transport authority and to consist of an assembly, a board of directors, regional air transport councils and such other units as may be created pursuant to the provisions of this convention.
Section 2
The authority shall plan and foster the organization of international air services so as
(a)	to make the most effective contribution to the establishment and maintenance of a permanent system of general security,
(b)	to meet the needs of the pepples of the world for efficient and economical air transport, and
(c)	to ensure that, so far as possible, international air routes and services are divided fairly and equitably between the various member states.
Section 3
The authority shall have exclusive jurisdiction, pursuant to the provisions of this convention, over international air services between two contiguous member states, provided that any two contiguous member states may agree that services between them shall come under the exclusive jurisdiction of the authority. When such an agreement has been notified by both states to the board, and until such agreement has been terminated, the authority shall have exclusive jurisdiction, pursuant to the rovisions of this convention, over the services etween the two states.
Article II
Obligations of member states
Section 1
Each member state recognizes that every state has complete exclusive sovereignty over the air space above its territory.
Section 2
Each member state undertakes to give the following freedoms of the air to the international air services operating under the provisions of this convention to the extent allowed by the licence issued to the services:
(1)	The right of innocent passage,
(2)	The right to land for non-traffic purposes (e.g~ refuelling, repair, emergency),
(3)	The right to discharge passengers, mails
and freight embarked in the territory of the state or states whose nationality the aircraft possesses, and	.
(4)	The right to take on passengers, mails and freight destined for the territory of the state or states whose nationality the aircraft possesses.
Section 3
Each member state may
(a)	designate the route to be followed within its territory by any international air service and the air ports which any international air service may use, and
(b)	impose or permit to be imposed on any international air service just and reasonable charges for the use of the air ports and
IMr Howe.]
other facilities on its territory, which shall not be higher than would be paid by national aircraft engaged in comparable international services,
provided that, upon complaint by an interested air carrier through the government or governments of which it is a national, the designation of routes and use of air ports, and the charges imposed for the use of air ports and other facilities shall be subject to review by the licensing authority.
Section 4
Each member state undertakes to make available such radio frequencies and to provide such meteorological services as may from time to time be required by the licensing authority for the safety, efficiency and regularity of the air services licensed by it.
Section 5
Each member state undertakes to perform the obligations imposed on it by this convention and to enact legislation necessary to carry out its terms including
(a)	legislation to ensure that no air carrier may operate international air services unless that carrier is in possession of a valid licence authorizing such services, issued under the provisions of article VI of this convention, and
(b)	legislation to bring its national laws into conformity with the regulations approved by the assembly under the provisions of subsection 5 of section 2 of article III of this convention. This action shall be taken within the period of one year from the date of approval by the assembly or, if it is impossible owing to exceptional circumstances to do so within the period of one year, then at the earliest practicable moment and in no case later than eighteen months from the date of approval by the assembly.
Section 6
Each member state undertakes to permit the operation within its territory of operating organizations constituted under the provisions of section 3 of article IX of this convention, provided that permission to an operating organization to engage in domestic qir transport within its territory shall be in the discretion of the state.
Article III The assembly
Section 1
The international air transport assembly shall be composed of representatives of the member states. Each state shall be entitled to the number of votes [one to six] in the assembly provided in the annex to this convention and may appoint as many representatives to the assembly as it has votes and may replace them from time to time. Each state may cast all of the votes allotted to it regardless of the number of its representatives present at any meeting. Decisions of the assembly shall be. taken by a majority of the votes cast except where otherwise provided in this convention. There shall be deemed to be a quorum if the representatives present can cast one-half of the possible votes.
t

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Section 2
The duties of the assembly shall be:
(1)	To elect the international air transport board.
(2)	To elect the president of the board. The president shall hold office for a period of six years.
(3)	To meet from time to time as occasion may require and at least once a year.
(4)	To examine and approve the annual report of the board, and to decide any matter referred to it by the board.
(5)	To draw up and maintain regulations governing such matters as air safety, rules of the air, competency of aircrew, ground signals, meteorological procedure, navigational aids, communications, airworthiness, national registration and identification of aircraft, carriage of dangerous goods, salvage.
(6)	To make regulations governing the preparation of budgets and financial statements by the board and to approve the annual budget and the financial arrangements made 'by the board.
Section 3
The assembly shall have power:
(1)	To determine its rules of procedure.
(2)	To fix the salaries of the president and the other members of the board.
(3)	To refer to subsidiary commissions, the board or any other appropriate agency any matter within the sphere of its jurisdiction.
(4) To deal with any matter within the sphere of action of the international air transport authority not specifically assigned to the board or the regional councils.
Article IV The Board
Section 1
The international air transport board shall be elected by the international air transport assembly. The board shall be a permanent body responsible to the assembly and composed of twelve members in addition to the president. They shall not be members of the assembly. They shall hold office for a period of six years. Two members of the board shall retire annually and in rotation but shall be eligible for reelection. The assembly shall have the right to dismiss any member of the board at any time. In the event of the dismissal or death of a member of the board, the assembly shall elect a successor who shall hold office for the unexpired portion of his predecessor's term of office. The board shall include at least one national of each of the eight member states of chief importance in international air transport.
Section 2
The duties of the board shall be:
(1)	To constitute, subject to the approval of the assembly, the following regional air transport councils:	(for example, European,
North Atlantic, North Pacific, Inter-American). In constituting a regional council the board shall designate as participating states those member states which are principally concerned in the international airlines of the region. The board shall also define the boundaries of the region or designate the routes over which the regional council shall have jurisdiction. The
board may from time to time revise the lists of participating states and alter the boundaries of the regions or change the designations of the routes.
(2)	To decide, subject to the approval of the assembly, the method of appointment, the salaries and conditions of service of its employees, including those members of the regional councils who are appointed by the board.
(3)	To establish the rules of procedure of subsidiary commissions and of regional councils.
(4)	To administer, subject to the approval of the assembly, the finances of the international air transport authority.
(5) To grant licences over routes coming within the jurisdiction of two or more regional councils or of no regional council; and in these cases to exercise the duties of a regional council.
(6)	To conduct research into all aspects of air transport which are of international concern, to make the results of its research known to all the member states and to facilitate tbe exchange of information on air transport matters between the member states.
Section 3
The board shall have power:
(1)	To revoke or alter, after public notice or hearing, any decision of a regional air transport council including any decision to grant, withhold, alter, amend, modify, revoke or suspend a licence and any decision determining frequencies of service, allocation of quotas, or rates of carriage.
(2)	To carry out the provisions of article YII of this convention (airports and other ground facilities).
(3)	To establish, subject to the approval of the assembly, subsidiary commissions responsible to it.
(4)	To institute such training facilities for its employees as it may consider necessary.
Section 4
Decisions of the board shall be taken by a majority of the votes east. One-half the members of the board shall form a quorum. The president shall have a casting vote. The board shall determine its rules of procedure but the place of its permanent seat shall be decided by the assembly.
Article Y Regional Councils Section I
A regional air transport council shall be composed of not less than six nor more than nine members. One-third of the members shall be appointed by the international air transport board and hold office at the pleasure of the board; they shall possess special knowledge of problems of air transport and shall be nationals of states other than those which are designated by the board as being principally concerned in the international airlines of the region. The other members shall be appointed by the designated states. The number of members to be appointed by each of the designated states shall be, from time to time, determined by the board, having regard to the relative importance to each state of the international air transport services under the regional council's jurisdiction and to
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the relative importance of each state in air transport. The members appointed by designated states shall hold office at the pleasure of the government appointing them.
Section 2
Decisions of a regional council shall be taken by a majority of the votes cast. One-lialf the members of a council shall form a quorum.
Section 3
Each regional council shall appoint a managing director who shall hold office for a period of four years.
Section 4
The duties of a regional council shall be:
(1)	To grant licences to operate international air services within the region; to withhold licences; to attach to the exercise of the privileges granted by a licence such reasonable terms, conditions and limitations as the public interest may require and as are consistent with the terms of this convention; to _ alter, amend, modify or suspend any licence, in whole or in part, or revoke any licence, in whole or in part, for deliberate failure to comply with any provision of this convention or ot any order, rule or regulation issued under this convention or any term, condition or limitation of the licence.
(2)	To determine rates of carriage for passengers and cargo, having regard, among other things, to standards of speed and of accommodation. and to consult with the postal administrations regarding rates of carriage for mail.
(3)	To collect and publish information and cost statistics relating to the operation of international air services within the region.
Section 5	*>
If the airline companies of more than one state are operating on a route a regional council shall have power to determine frequencies of service on the route and to allocate quotas*.
Article VI Licences Section 1
(1)	Applications for licences can be submitted only by governments of member states. An application by a person or corporation shall be submitted through the intermediary of the government of the member state of which the person or corporation is a national.
(2)	An application shall normally be made to the competent regional air transport council. If the application, however, is for a service which falls within the jurisdiction of two or more regional councils or of no regional council, the application shall be made to the international air transport board which may refer it to one or more regional councils for their opinion.
Section 2
(1)	The board or a regional council shall not grant, renew, alter, amend, modify, suspend or revoke a licence except after reasonable notice
*The' term "frequencies of service" means the number of trips on the route per day or per week. The term "quotas" means the number of trips which the airline companies of any one member state may operate on the route.

to all member states in the region or regions concerned and after a formal hearing at which all these member states shall have the right to be heard except in ease of emergency or under the provisions of article IX of this convention (relationship to the international security organization).
(2)	The board or a regional council shall not grant a licence unless it is satisfied:
(a)	that the person or corporation applying for the licence is able properly to provide the proposed air services, and to conform to the provisions of this convention and the rules, regulations and requirements of the international air transport authority and the competent regional councils, and
(b)	that the proposed services and their performance by the applicant would serve public convenience and necessity.
Section 3
(1)	The holder of a licence granted by the board or a regional council shall have the right to operate to, within, over and away from the territory of any member state to the extent allowed by the licence. The licence may allow the holder to make stops in the territory _ of any member state for refuelling, repairs, taking on or discharging of passengers, cargo and mail and for any other purpose and member states shall allow such stops, provided that no licence shall grant permission to a person or corporation possessing the nationality of one state to take on passengers, cargo or mail within the territory of any other state for discharge within contiguous territory of the latter or within the territory of a third state except with the consent of the member state or member states concerned.
(2)	No licence shall be granted for a period of more than ... years but licences may be renewed on application. Any licence may be revoked, altered, amended, modified or suspended by the board or by the regional council which granted the licence.
Article VII
Airports and Other Ground Facilities Section 1
If an air carrier licensed by the board or a regional council is of the opinion that the airports or other ground facilities on the territory of a member state are not reasonably adequate for the safe, regular, efficient and economical operation of the air services which it is permitted by its licence to perform, it may so inform the government or governments of which it is a national. Such government or governments may, if the complaint is considered to be valid, transmit it to the appropriate regional council, or if more than one regional council or no regional council is concerned, to the board. After reasonable notice to all member states concerned and after one or more hearings at which these member states shall have the right to be heard, the board or regional council may request the member state to expand its existing facilities or to construct new ones or to man and maintain its existing or new facilities in accordance with standards set by the board or regional council. The board shall, at the instance of an interested member state, review any request made by a regional

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council and after public notice or hearing may suspend, withdraw, alter, amend or modify its terms. Each member state undertakes, at the earliest practicable moment, to give effect to the requests of the board or regional council.
Section 2
The expenses involved in carrying out any such request shall be apportioned as follows:
(a)	The member state may elect to bear all or a portion of the costs,
(b)	If the member state bears none of the costs or bear only a portion thereof, the costs (or the remaining portion of them, as the case may be) shall be advanced by the board to the member state and shall be borne by the board or be apportioned by the board, over a reasonable period of time, between the states (including the member state constructing the facilities) whose air carriers or services use the facilities.
In cases where the board advances costs it may require a reasonable share in the supervision of the construction work, in the control of the airports and other facilities, and in the revenues derived from charges levied.
Section 3
If a member state so requests the board may provide, man, maintain and control any or all of the airports and other ground facilities which it requires in the territory of that member state for the safe, regular, efficient and economical operation of the air services which it or a regional council has licensed and may impose just and reasonable charges for the use of the facilities. The member state shall either provide the land itself or facilitate the acquisition of the necessary land by the board on just and reasonable terms.
Section 4
A member state may at any time acquire and obtain complete control over facilities on its territory for which the board has advanced costs under section 2 of this article, or wrhich the board has provided under section 3 of this article, by paying to the board an amount which in the opinion of the board is reasonable in the circumstances.
Article VIII Finance
The expenses of the international air transport authority shall be borne by the member states in proportion to the number of votes at their disposal in the assembly, provided that those expenses of a regional air transport council which are, in the opinion of the board, properly chargeable to the states participating in that council shall be borne by those states in such proportions as the board may determine.
Article IX
Relationship to the International Security Organization
Section 1
The international air transport authority shall be subject, so far as questions involving world security are concerned, to the general organization which may be established among the nations of the world for the maintenance of peace and international security.
Section 2
The board, when informed by the international security organization that such action is required in the interest of world security, shall immediately and without formal hearing grant, withhold, alter, amend, modify, suspend or revoke any licence in whole or in part and take the measures concerning technical services, operating facilities and bases which the international security Organization has directed should be taken.
Section 3
The board shall, when informed by the international security organization that such action is required in the interest of world security, constitute, supervise and control one or more operating organizations to operate air services on routes or in regions designated from time to time by the international security organization, provided that such operating organizations shall not .engage in domestic air transport within any state without the permission of that state. The board may place operating organizations under the supervision and control of the appropriate regional air transport council.
Article X
Joint Operating Organizations and Pooling
Section 1
Nothing in this convention shall prevent two or more states from constituting joint air transport operating organizations but such organizations shall be subject to all the provisions of this convention including those relating to licences and to the registration of agreements with the board.
Section 2
Nothing in this convention shall prevent two or -more states from pooling their air services on certain routes or in certain regions but such pooled services shall be subject to all the provisions of this convention including those relating to licences and to the registration of agreements with the board.
Section 3
The board, or a regional air transport council, may recommend to the member states concerned that they pool the air services on certain routes or in certain regions or that they constitute joint operating organizations to perform some or all the air services on certain routes or in certain regions.
Section 4
A state shall have the right to participate in joint operating organizations either through its government or through an air line company or companies designated by it. The companies may, at the sole discretion of the state concerned, be state-owned or partly state-owned or privately owned.
Article XI
Other agreements and arrangements Section 1
This convention shall replace the international aerial navigation convention signed at Paris in 1919, the Ibero-American convention on aerial navigation signed at Madrid in 1926, the PanAmerican convention on commercial aviation

15S6
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Grote Stirling: The understanding was that this matter would be set aside to a future date so that it could be digested before the discussion continued.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That is correct.

War Appropriation-Naval Services



[Stage Direction]
6.	Signal and wireless equipment, line construction, etc., $19,759,334.
Mr. ROY:: I understand that a telephone line has been built on the north coast of the Gaspe peninsula by a crown company. I should like to know if this could be taken up under this item.
Hon. ANGUS L. MACDONALD (Minister of National Defence for Naval Services): Yes.


Joseph Sasseville Roy: Is it the intention of the department to sell this telephone line to a private concern?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: The line to which my hon. friend refers, and other similar lines, are under the charge of a crown company known as Defence Communications Limited. Like other crown companies, this company is made up mainly of men from private business, from existing telegraph and telephone companies. They supervise the work of lines such as my hon. friend has in mind, and endeavour to see that existing lines are improved and certain new lines built.


Joseph Sasseville Roy: What was the cost of this telephone line?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: The army, navy and air force all shared the cost
of these lines, and the work is in charge of this crown company. Our share for the work carried on in eastern Canada is, $250,000.


Joseph Sasseville Roy: Where could I apply to find out the cost of this line?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Defence Communications Limited is under the jurisdiction of the Department of Munitions and Supply. I have no doubt that if my hon. friend addressed his communication to the president of Defence Communications Limited, care of Department of Munitions and Supply, he would get the information he desires.


Mr. MARSHALL:: In 1940 there was established a naval services equipment division for the purpose of securing the production of certain equipment and assembly components, particularly in connection with shipbuilding. I think it operated for two years, and then I understand that on July 10, 1942, authority was obtained to dissolve the division. It seems to me that it has done some very
{Mr. Mackenzie King.]
valuable work and I w:as wondering what objects were achieved by dissolving it in 1942.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: The work has not ceased at all. It is now being done by the Department of Munitions and Supply. In the earlier days the experimental work which was a necessary preliminary to the manufacture of the items was done by the department of naval services with some assistance from other sources. But the experimental stage having now passed, the actual work of manufacture has been taken over by the Department of Munitions and Supply.


Mr. McGARRY:: Has the department contributed to the building of the line between Pleasant Bay and Cheticamp?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I
should say, without looking up the details, that we did. That would be part of the Atlantic coast programme to which we contributed.


Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: At page 1565
of Hansard of yesterday I asked about land lines on Cape Breton island. The minister was to give more detailed information later with respect to that matter, in which the hon. member for Inverness-Richmond was interested. What construction work has been done the better to serve the needs of the three departments in the northern part of Cape Breton isalnd, and incidentally serve also the needs of the people resident in that >part of Nova Scotia and having business or personal relations with the northern .part of Cape Breton island?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
7.	Ammunition and bombs, $23,835,200.
Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: Are the different ships allowed sufficient ammunition for plenty of target practice?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Oh, yes; I do not think there is any shortage of ammunition.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: There was, I believe, a year or a year and a half ago. Have they plenty now?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I do not recall that there ever was a shortage; there may have been. Certainly at the present, as for some time past, there are large reserves of practice ammunition available.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

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8.	Armament, including rifles, machine guns, naval guns, et cetera, $26,458,650.
Grote Stirling: Will the minister explain this considerable decrease?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: This item is to provide for guns and mountings- that means low-angle and anti-aircraft guns; also to provide small arms, depth charges, fire control apparatus and the like. It also includes the programme for modernization and an increase in armament of some of our ships now in commission to meet the need for more fire power, particularly against aircraft. Finally it includes a certain amount of armament for the training of recruits. I am glad to be able to say that in Canada sufficient guns are being produced and in sufficient variety so that the complete programme of fitting Royal Canadian Navy ships can be met without any difficulty whatever.


Grote Stirling: Is the armament already provided for the destroyers built and in course of building?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: For the destroyers already built armament was provided in Great Britain.


Grote Stirling: And one was launched.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: The Tribals built in Great Britain were provided with armament there, and of course the destroyers that we acquired from Great Britain were fully equipped when we got them.


Grote Stirling: But the one now building?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I think some guns for the destroyer which is being built at Halifax are coming from Great Britain.


Percy Chapman Black: Is the minister free to give the sizes and the number of the guns on these new Tribal boats which are being built in Canada?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I do lot know that I want to particularize in too much detail, but they run from 4-7 inch guns down to the Lewis and Bren guns.


Percy Chapman Black: The 4-7 inch guns-guns of that size-are built in Canada, are they not?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: We are making some 4 inch guns. I am not sure about 4-7 inch guns, but I can find that out. The destroyers built in Great Britain are equipped with guns at the British yards there. I think 4-7 inch guns are also coming from Great Britain for the destroyers building in Halifax, but I am not quite sure on that point.


Percy Chapman Black: Would the minister care to make a statement as to the progress being made in the building of these Tribal destroyers? One was launched some months ago, and I understand that another is about ready to be launched. I would like to know, if the minister thinks it is all right to give the information, when the balance of the programme will be completed and when these destroyers will be in service. There are some misgivings as to the length of time required to build them and get them equipped and into actual service. We are all anxious to see this class of construction undertaken and carried out successfully in Canada. On the other hand, it is the feeling of everybody that the justification for building them is to have them fully equipped and ready for active service at the earliest possible date.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: It is inevitable, I think, that the building of the first of these destroyers should take longer in this country than it would take in a country where more experience had been acquired in this type of work. It is inevitable that the building of the hull should take a little longer, and that there should be a delay in connection with the installation of the machinery, which is of a new type so far as this country is concerned, as compared with what might have been done in the yards of Great Britain and the United States, where long experience has been gained in that type of work. But, all things considered, I think progress is reasonably satisfactory. The destroyers will take somewhat longer to build and will cost a little more than if they had been constructed in Great Britain. On the whole, however, I think that if, as I said the other day, we are to have a navy in this country we should build in Canada as many ships for that navy as we possibly can, and we have to acquire experience in our own yards. Destroyers are vital constituent parts in any navy. I believe that in future years it will be said that, all things considered, we did wisely in undertaking the construction of these ships at the time we did. Further, when we formed our plans for the building of destroyers in Canada, there was continually in our minds the possibility that English yards would be bombed and that it might be difficult to carry on work there. Happily, in the last year or so that condition has pretty well passed away, and the British yards are doing their usual fine work. But in 1941, when we took this decision, there was a strong possibility that some of the British shipyards would find it very difficult indeed to carry on. So, that all in all, I think the decision was wise. While I should like to see the

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work proceed a little more rapidly, I understand the difficulties and delays, the labour problems and the problems connected with getting the machinery. Everything is being done, of course, that we can do from this end to speed up this work.	[DOT]


Percy Chapman Black: I thank the minister for the answer he has given, but he has hardly answered my question as to the number included in this programme for the construction of Tribal destroyers, and when it is expected that the programme will be completed and each unit will be ready for service. One ship was launched some time ago and another one is nearly ready to be launched. It should be pretty well known by now when that will be equipped and ready for service. I should also like information with respect to the others.
The minister also admits that construction here costs more than it does in the older yards, in Great Britain and other places, and I appreciate that that is necessarily so. He informed the committee that the cost will be a little larger than in these older yards. I should like to know what he means by "a little."


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Oh, well, I cannot give my hon. friend that information. As a matter of fact, I do not know how much more it will be. The destroyers are not yet completed. The work is being done on the first destroyer on the basis of cost plus a fixed fee. What the final cost will be I cannot tell my hon. friend at this moment. It is inevitable that it will be greater than in Great Britain. Our rates of labour are higher here than in Great Britain; our cost of material is somewhat higher. What the ultimate cost of that first destroyer will be I could not say at the moment. It will be greater-more than "a little". I am afraid it will be, substantially greater than it would be in Great Britain.


Percy Chapman Black: Fifty per cent more, may I ask the minister?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I
should think probably it would, on the first
destroyer.


Percy Chapman Black: But no more than 50 per cent?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Well, I do not know. It may be more.


Percy Chapman Black: Would the
minister care to give the committee the information as to the number of ships in the present programme, and when it is expected they will be completed, ready for active service?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: My hon. friend is referring to the Tribal destroyers?


Percy Chapman Black: Yes.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: We already have four of these ships in commission.


Percy Chapman Black: But I mean the ones which are being built in the yards at Halifax.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: The programme involves four ships there. We anticipate now that the last ship will be launched in May of next year. My hon. friend understands, of course, that when you have launched a ship of war you still have a great deal of work ahead of you. The installation of machinery, the trials of the ship, and all the rest are a problem in themselves just as great as, and in some cases perhaps greater than, the hull work. But it is anticipated now that the last destroyer will be launched in May, 1945.


Percy Chapman Black: I am not able to get the information from the minister; I will not press him if he informs the committee that it is not in the public interest to disclose it. The information I am asking for is, when will these ships be fully completed and equipped and ready for active service- the first of the programme of four Tribal destroyers, and the last of the four?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I should say to my hon. friend, although it can be only a guess, that the first ship, the one which has already been launched, the Micmac, will be commissioned next spring or early summer, a year or a little more than a year from now. The last one ought to be commissioned about a year after she is launched. She will be launched, we hope, next May; she should be commissioned in the following summer. I think we ought to make more rapid progress as we go along, and I should hope the last ship would be commissioned by the summer of 1946-not 1950, as someone suggested here the other day.


Mr. ISNOR:: I recall very well the launching of the Micmac, the Tribal destroyer, in Halifax, at which the Minister of National Defence for Naval Services was present, and Mrs. Macdonald, the wife of the minister, had the honour of christening that splendid ship, I also remember when the construction of destroyers in Canada was first mooted; there were many who thought it was impossible for Canada to undertake the building of this type of craft. But I recall travelling from Montreal to Halifax with a Mr. Mariner,

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who was connected with one of the Scottish shipbuilding concerns, and had been in Canada for a period of about a year or a year and one-half when the war broke out. He made the statement then that there was no reason why Canada should not be able to build its own destroyers. I was pleased, as I think was the country at large, when announcement was made by the navy department that this type of ship would be constructed in Canada.
I am surprised that the hon. member for Cumberland, with his knowledge of the difficulties experienced in his own town of Amherst with respect to aeroplane construction, would be critical of the time taken to bring to successful conclusion a new undertaking such as the one to which he referred. It is almost impossible in a country like Canada to build ships in the same time as in the shipyards of the old country. We did not have the facilities at the time, although the Halifax shipyards are well equipped now. We were without the skilled1 labour and material. It was not thought possible that the material would be available in this country. But all those obstacles were overcome and we were very happy on the occasion of the launching of the Micmac. I do not think it is a question of time, although we are all anxious to see those boats completed and launched at the earliest possible moment. What we should bear in mind is that Canadian workmen were able to build boats, something which we thought three years ago was impossible.
I think the Halifax shipyards have done exceptionally well in regard to the handling of those two contracts. One ship is afloat and! the other one is about to be launched. It is a matter of finishing up the fittings. I am looking forward to the day when we shall have not only those two in commission but many others built by Canadians in Canadian shipyards.


Percy Chapman Black: I commended this policy and the minister for having undertaken the construction of those ships in Canada and in Nova Scotia. This is in line with the policy that was proposed by other governments in previous years, although unfortunately not carried out. I recognize also that it is to be expected that the initial ships would take longer to build, than they have in other yards. On the other hand, I think it is perfectly proper, in seeking information covering this enormous expenditure for a very worthy purpose, to ask for information as to the time it takes to build those vital ships and as to the cost and the justification for the additional cost. If this
committee is not to get that information we might as well adjourn. We are here for the purpose of getting information.
I do not wish to press the minister unduly, but I should have liked to have from him a statement as to whether he considers that the construction programme, has proceeded with the expedition that we should reasonably expect to be the case in a time of war and at a time when we are in desperate need1 of having those ships commissioned for active service, I am not critical of the programme, 'but I do want information as to the cost in Canada in comparison with the cost elsewhere, I want information as to the time it takes to build those ships in this country as compared with the time taken in other countries. I am glad this programme has been undertaken. I regret it was not undertaken by the government much earlier. I hope that it will be a success and that it will be an established programme in the years that lie ahead, although we all recognize that the building of ships of war after the successful termination of the war will be extremely limited in comparison with the needs at the present time.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
9.	Fuel cost of ships, $27,806,604.
Grote Stirling: What part of this is coal and what part oil?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: By far the greater amount of it would be for oil. The amount of coal for steaming is estimated at 35,600 tons, and coal for heating ships, 3,182 tons. In value that forms about two per cent of the total fuel requirements.


Mr. NOSEWORTHY:: Has the minister a break-down of the amount allowed for the purchase of oil, showing the companies from which these quantities are to be obtained?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I have not the break-down by companies. We would requisition the Department of Munitions and Supply to get the oil for us and some of it would be purchased here, some purchased in Newfoundland, some purchased in Great Britain and some in United States ports and elsewhere.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I
understand that there is some trouble on the diesel-powered ships in regard to seawater getting into the oil tanks. Has the water been allowed to get in after the oil is on the ship or when it is being loaded, or is it oil that comes up from South America?

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Angus Lewis Macdonald: Is my hon. friend speaking of oil carried in bulk?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Yes, and supplied to the ships. I understand that salt water is allowed to get into some of the ship tanks causing the nozzles of the metal burners on the diesels to corrode.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Rust?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Corrode.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I would have to look into that. Of course my hon. friend knows there are always problems connected with the ships that burn oil fuel; in fact, any kind of fuel, but as to the particular point he raises I cannot speak at the moment with accuracy. I shall have it looked into and give my hon. friend the information later.
Mr. MacNICOJii: This item refers to fuel for ships. Where is the item that refers to fuel for the heating of the barracks and the yards?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: That would be under maintenance of properties.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
10.	Acquisition, construction, charter, repair and upkeep of ships, $82,282,000.
Mr. MacNICOL:: I observe that the total estimate of the department has been reduced by approximately $79,000,000. This particular item has been reduced by about $85,000,000, as against a reduction of $79,000,000 on the total estimate for this department. From that I would take it that the department is under the impression that the shipbuilding programme is reaching its objective. I should like to ask if that is the case.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: My hon. friend is using the figure of $167,000,000, which was the estimated expenditure for the present year. I may tell him, however, that we did not spend that sum. The year is not quite over yet and consequently I have not the exact figure, but I should think it would be somewhat less than the figure of 8167,000,000. It is true, as my hon. friend points out, that the estimate for this year is considerably less, but we are still building a good many ships in this country. As I indicated in my statement the other day, we propose to add a very considerable number of ships to the navy during the present year, so that our shipbuilding programme is by no means completed.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Could the minister give us the kind of ships that have been built during the past year, and what kind of craft are being built now, such as landing craft, seeps and small craft of that kind? This item deals with acquisition, construction and charter. How many has the department bought; how many has it constructed and how many has it chartered during the past year, with the cost in each case if that can be given?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: To mention some of the ships we are building there are destroyers, frigates, corvettes-


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Could the minister give the number of each?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Well, if I did so, it would have to be very approximate: destroyers, frigates, corvettes, Algerine mine-sweepers, Bangor mine-sweepers, Bassett mine-sweepers, wooden mine-sweepers of 105 feet and 126 feet; some motor launches, which means Fairmiles; some patrol vessels and various types of auxiliary vessels such as harbour vessels, gate vessfcls, examination vessels and so on. That would be a rough description of the ships we are building.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: What about landing craft and seeps?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: No, not for our navy.


Joseph William Noseworthy: How is this item of $82,000,000 divided or broken down under these four headings? What is the amount of each?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Acquisition and construction would be about $47,000,000; charters would be about $1,000,000; the repair and upkeep of ships would be about $33,000,000, all in round figures, making a total of $82,000,000.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: There would appear to be a misleading article in the copy of the Toronto Star Weekly I have in my hand, if the government is not buying craft of this kind. This article refers to amphibious jeeps, amphibious ducks, and seeps.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Of course some craft are being built in this country, but not for the Canadian navy; probably that is what the article refers to.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Then who would have control of these; the army?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Some ships of that kind are being used by the army and some are being built for Great Britain.

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There are many types of ships being built in this country for Great Britain. I am speaking now of ships being built for the Canadian navy, and none of those landing craft are for the navy.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Is there a plan on foot to build any of them?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: No.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Then, if there is an invasion of Europe by the allies, Canadians will have to ride in the landing craft of other nations; is that true? They will have to be carried in the craft of other countries; the Canadian navy will not carry them; it will be other allied countries which will supply the boats?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: There is nothing unusual about that. We are using guns which were produced in other countries, while some other countries are using guns made here. We might be using the ships of another country and at the same time be building ships here for Great Britain and the United States. There is nothing abnormal or unusual about that. Certain craft of that type have been built in Canada, but I say that none has been built for the Canadian navy. I believe the Canadian army had some, and perhaps some were built in this country for the United Kingdom, while of course a great many were built in the United States and some are built in England. We are not building any in this country for the Canadian navy as such.


Mr. FR  ASER@Peterborough West: In
case of an emergency, if Canada needed some of these craft in a hurry, she would have to go to other allied countries to get them; is that right?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I do not know that my hon. friend should put it in that way. I do not think hon. gentlemen should always try to put the worst possible construction on everything.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I did not mean it in that way.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Then I will say, Mr. Chairman, that it sounds very much like it; that we will have to go to somebody else, virtually with our hat in our hands, saying, " Please give us ships." I do not think this country has to apologize for what it has done in the matter of providing ships, guns or anything else. It is a common thing for one country to undertake a certain line of work and give its surplus to another country. We have built a hundred ships here for Great Britain. We have built a few ships for the United States. We do not say, because of that, 100-101 -
that the British navy is falling to pieces, or that England has to come begging us for ships. We were able to help Britain in the case of ships, and we were able to do so in connection with guns, ammunition and depth charges. We Were able to give some of these to other countries, and they were glad to accept them. In return we took some things from those other countries. It is an exchange that is honourable, reasonable and fair on all sides. As to landing craft, we have not built any for the Canadian navy, but such craft have been built in the country and I have no doubt that there will be a sufficient number of those craft to deal with the situation when it arises.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I am just as proud of the Canadian navy as the minister is, and I was not casting any reflection upon it or upon the building programme. But I know how the boys feel; they like to be carried in their own Canadian boats, and that was why I rose and said what I did. I make no apology for doing so, and I know the minister understands how I feel about the matter.


Joseph William Noseworthy: In the case of boats that are chartered, what is the relation of the minister's department to the Department of Transport? To what extent is the Department of Transport involved in the charter of these boats; on what basis is the charter hire decided, and by whom?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: The director of marine services, who is an official of the Department of Transport, acts as our agent in this matter. With respect to the basis upon which boats are chartered, there is at the coast a committee known as an advisory board, which examines the vessel and determines what it thinks a fair charter would be. I believe that the committee on the east coast consists of three, and that there is on the west coast a similar committee which carries out those duties. They work pretty well along certain formulae; they look at the ship, allowing so much for depreciation, so much for administration expenses and the like. Then they fix what they regard as a fair charter to pay for that ship.


Mr. BROOKS:: We understand, of course,
that the navy is operating in the Mediterranean, and in all the seven seas. Do those ships come back to Canada for repairs, or are they repaired in the ports of the different united nations? If they return to Canada, what places in this country are being used for that purpose?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Some of the ships would be repaired here, and some



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might be repaired in Great Britain or elsewhere. I should assume that if ships were in the Mediterranean area they might be repaired there. Others might be repaired1 in the United States. In this country, starting at Newfoundland, the repair yards would be at St. John's, and at Bay Bulls one is under construction. There are several places in Nova Scotia where repairs can be made. Then, there is, of course, the Saint John dry dock at Saint John, New Brunswick, where repairs might be carried out. In the summer months repairs can be done at Quebec and Montreal. On the west coast repairs can be undertaken at Vancouver or Victoria.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: The policy is to make
repairs at the most convenient point.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: It
has to be done in that way, yes.


James Alexander Marshall: The people of Stettler,
a thriving little town in my constituency, w'ould like me to express to the minister their deep and sincere appreciation for the department's having named one of the corvettes after that town. This seems to be an unusual procedure, but it was done because the people of Edmonton made it possible, as was explained to the house a few evenings ago by the hon. member for Edmonton West. Stettler suffered severely from the battle of Dieppe, and I have no doubt that the naming of the corvette after that town will perpetuate the memory of the heroism of the men who came from that community.
I thank the minister, too, for having sent me an invitation to attend the launching ceremonies last summer. Unfortunately his invitation arrived about two days before the launching, so that it was quite impossible for me to be present on that occasion. Could the minister give some information as to the operations of this corvette?


Mrs. CASSELMAN:: I made inquiries
about the Stettler just the other day, and I find that it is to be commissioned probably next month, and will then be called for duty. If the minister will let us know when it is to be commissioned we would appreciate it. I am sure the hon. member for Camrose, as well as the hon. member for Edmonton West, would appreciate having that information.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I shall be very glad to do that. I believe it should take place before many more months. The tentative date was next month, I believe, but whether or not that date can be met, I cannot say. However, we will give the hon. members for Edmonton East and Camrose due notice of the commissioning date.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: We are interested to hear hon. members from different constituencies say that ships have been named after two or throe places in those constituencies. It would seem to me that, when there are 245 constituencies in Canada, the names might be passed around,' so that each constituency might name a ship. For instance, my own constituency could provide some satisfactory names. We have towns with good English names such as Hampton, Norton, and Sussex. Then, if you wish Indian names we have Penobsquis, Quispamsis, Nauwigewauk and Apohaqui. It might be wise to have these names passed around to the different constituencies. Could the minister give the committee some idea as to how these names are selected, and by whom?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: At first I must say that the names were selected rather at random.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I am afraid so.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: But eventually the practice W'as developed of having the ships named after cities and towns, in order of their size. That seemed to be the only fair way of doing it.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Stettler is not a very big
place.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: No, Stettler is not. But the city of Edmonton, which would have been entitled to the naming of a ship, was unable to accept that honour because of possible confusion with the name of a ship already existing. They were then asked to suggest an alternative name, and I believe they suggested the name of Stettler. I must say, however, there were several New Brunswick names.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I know.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: There is a new frigate named the Saint John, which will be commissioned shortly. Then we have the Buctouche, the Moncton, the Fredericton, the Edmundston, the Sackville and the Shediac. It seems to me that the name of Sussex might not be used, because I am almost certain there is a British ship of that name, in which event we would not use it for a Canadian ship.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I can supply a substitute, if the minister wishes?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Very well.


Mr. DOUGLAS (Weybum):: The minister will recall that a corvette was named after

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the city of Weybum. The people of that city took a keen interest in the ship, sending comforts to the men and keeping in touch with the crew. After the corvette Weybum went down, with her guns blazing, the minister said that an attempt would be made to name another corvette after that city. Has it been possible to do so, or is that within the realm of possibility?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I do not think that name has yet been assigned. It is a common practice to reassign, after a certain time, names of ships which have been sunk in action. I doubt whether the name Weyburn has been reassigned to any other ship, but I shall keep my hon. friend's representations in mind.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Has the department considered naming ships ' after historic areas in cities? For instance, in my own end of the city of Toronto there is an historic area known as Earlscourt, named after Earlscourt in London where Buckingham palace is located. Down through the years this part of the city has been settled mainly by old country people, perhaps to a greater extent than any other part. During the last war and during this war the people enlisted almost en masse, many of them in the navy, many in the air force and many in the army. If the department considers adopting this practice I suggest that perhaps Earlscourt may be considered a name of a fighting ship. Another historic area in Toronto is Trinity where the famous Robert Baldwin lived. Another area is High Park, which was donated by one of our great philanthropists. Another is Danforth in the east end of the city, and my desk-mate suggests that perhaps you could name one after the hon. member for Broadview, who was seven times mayor of Toronto-Church.


Frederick Clayton Casselman: You might even name one after the Minister of National Defence for Naval Services.


Joseph William Noseworthy: Do I understand the minister to say that his department depends upon the inspection and report by the Department of Transport in connection with the value and charter price of boats?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: What I told my hon. friend was that the director of marine services in the Department of Transport handles these requisitions for us. He in turn has an advisory board on both the east coast and the west coast which estimates the value of a ship and the proper amount of charter money which should be paid.
100- 101i


Joseph William Noseworthy: Some weeks ago I asked the minister to check up on a small boat which had been requisitioned and then returned to the owner. Has he had time to gather any information?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: An investigation into that has started and I hope to bring down the return shortly for my hon. friend.


Joseph William Noseworthy: I have before me a return, sessional paper 253, which was brought down for another member in April, 1942. From a study of these papers I have come to the conclusion that in these matters there is anything but cooperation between the Department of Transport and the Department of National Defence for Naval Services. There is certainly an undue amount of red tape which causes inconvenience to citizens whose properties have been requisitioned.
For instance, I find that this particular boat was taken over by the naval department on December 7. The Department of Transport had the boat inspected on December 9 by a marine surveyor, and then on December 13 by a steamship inspector, at which time a valuation was placed on the boat. On January 3, after a considerable length of time, the advisory board, to which the minister referred, placed on the boat a valuation which was incidentally less than that of the marine inspector. This report was not sent to the naval department by the Department of Transport until September 21; seven months passed before the findings of this board were reported to the minister's department. The result was that this citizen whose boat had been chartered had to wait seven months for his first cheque, and he received this only after making a special trip to Ottawa.
As another illustration of the lack of cooperation, this citizen was notified on September 9, by the engineer in charge of Halifax harbour, working under the minister's department, that the charter was to be cancelled or that the department desired to cancel the charter which had been entered into, and the citizen was requested to come and get his boat. On October 18, nearly six weeks later, the Department of Transport executed a new charter with the citizen.
There are a couple of other points I should like to call to the minister's attention. The marine inspector of the Department of Transport valued this boat at $16,500, but the board, to which the minister has referred, reduced this valuation by twenty-five per cent to 513,200, on the ground that the surveyor had allowed a twenty-five per cent war appreciation over the actual value of the boat.

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I assume that the minister's department is responsible for the examination of boats placed in dry dock. This boat was placed in a dry dock the latter part of February, 1941, and was there for fourteen days. The evidence here shows that ceiling planks were removed; conditions were found to be good, and so forth. As a result of this examination a requisition was made for the expenditure of S844 on the boat, and apparently this was i approved and spent toward the end of February on an annual overhaul. On April 8, after the boat had been in dry dock for two weeks and had been given this outfitting costing SS44, she comes back into dry dock again for two days to get a coat of paint. Then a month later she comes back into dry dock again for another coat of paint. There is no evidence in the return to show what these two extra coats of paint cost. The interesting part is that a few weeks after these expenditures on the boat the minister's own engineers discovered that the boat was rotten and would require approximately $5,000 to make it seaworthy. On the strength of that they notified the owner to take his boat back.
The confusing situation is that two inspectors of the transport department set an appraisal value on the boat of $16,500, and then $13,200; that the minister's own engineers considered the boat worth overhauling to the tune of $1,000 of the ratepayers' money, and then a couple of weeks later they discover that the boat is rotten and unfit for service. When the owner was asked to take the boat back, there is a copy of a telegram here in which he offered the department the free loan of the boat for the rest of the season, and the department replies that the boat simply cannot be used at all. Somebody in one or other of those departments is grossly inefficient and wasteful of the public's money. If you are going to put a boat that is rotten, that cannot be used, that must be discarded, into dry dock and spend nearly a thousand dollars on it-and incidentally there was another five hundred dollars of the taxpayers' money spent before the boat was returned-I should like to know who is at fault, who does not know his job. I think the taxpayer has a right to know why we should spend one thousand or fifteen hundred dollars on a boat which two weeks later is declared to be rotten.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: My hon. friend took this matter up with me before, and I am looking into it. I do not think his interpretation of the return is accurate in all respects, but I will look into the matter again and see if further information can be brought down as he requested in his motion for a return some time ago.


Percy Chapman Black: This item of $82,282,000, the largest except one in the minister's whole estimates, involves the repair and upkeep of ships. I would ask if he could now or later provide the committee with a statement showing the repairs for the current fiscal year that have been made on one class of ships, say corvettes, showing the repairs to each corvette for the current fiscal year. We all recognize that these ships, which have done such splendid service during the war, are subject to very hard usage and sometimes require extensive repairs, especially those that have been in touch with the enemy and suffered damage in action. On the other hand, there is the feeling in some parts of the maritime provinces that at least some of these ships are tied up for too long a period at wharves and at repair yards, and there is a reflection in some cases upon the concerns that constructed these ships; in other cases it is a reflection upon the yards doing the repairs, and in other cases a reflection upon the crews, that they encourage long delays in port and do not want the repairs completed earlier. I think that is a very unfair reflection. There are also rumours that some of these ships have been subjected to sabotage. I have even heard that some of the corvettes in active service have had sand or some other abrasive in their lubricating oil, involving extensive lay-ups and overhaul. I should be glad if the minister would give the committee a statement covering the total expenditures for repairs on each of the corvettes for the current fiscal year and also if he could give me information with respect to my other inquiries.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: It will take some considerable time to get the figures of these expenditures. I cannot hope to do so to-day or tomorrow. There are a great many of these ships and repairs have been carried out, I was going to say, in practically every port of the world, but that would not be accurate. There is great difficulty sometimes in distinguishing between repairs to a ship and alterations that are made by virtue of new discoveries, new guns, or new types' of equipment installed in the ship. Often it is very difficult to say where a repair job ends and where what is called an alteration or addition begins. I will do the best I can for my hon. friend. I cannot guarantee to get the information before these estimates are finally passed.
As to the other statements of sabotage, I know of no such case. It is a common thing for people to shout "sabotage" any time anything happens in the service by way of fire or otherwise. There was one case of fuel

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trouble, I recall, that was very suspicious. That was examined by our engineers, who went right to the spot, took the oil out, analysed it and came definitely to the conclusion that there was no sabotage whatever. There was some defect in the pipes, which produced a fine steel dust, but there was no evidence of sand or any other element having been thrown into the oil deliberately.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
11. Naval stores and harbour defences: small boats, minesweeping, degaussing, anti-submarine, fire-fighting and training equipment, et cetera, $34,678,967.
John Ritchie MacNicol: I was going to ask for an explanation of the significance of "harbour defences." I was under the impression that the Department of National Defence provided for the defence of harbours. What does this mean?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I can tell my hon. friend what we mean by that. The Department of National Defence (Army) does, of course, have some hand in the defence of ports, having guns at some of the ports, and so on. But when we speak of harbour defences we mean boom defences, for instance; we mean mine fields; we mean instruments that detect by sound the approach of hostile ships and things of that kind.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Has the department its own fire-fighting brigades, using their own pumps and fire-fighting equipment? If so, what is the reason for so many fires having taken place in barracks and buildings of one kind and another?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: There have not been so many fires. On a wharf at Sydney there was a fire which was very difficult to control because it ran through an oil pipe, which in turn ran through a tunnel, which in turn ran under a wharf. This oil was burning and the fire was extremely difficult to control. There was another fire at Shelburne shortly afterwards, but not a very serious one. Nearly all these buildings are wooden buildings and there is a danger in that regard. We have a fire-fighting organization of our own which is being developed, in fact, has been under development for some time at all these bases.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I would not ask this question if I knew the answer, but I do not. It may be an insignificant question. But what is the meaning of "degaussing"?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: That is an arrangement by which the effect of mines is neutralized by running a certain cable
around the ship, so that the magnetic mine has no effect. It is called "degaussing", because the engineer who designed the thing was named de Gausse.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Have any steps been taken to try to protect the various harbours against the oil which is dumped from boats? The minister himself knows that in some of the harbours the docks are just covered with the oil. Is there any chance of checking on that?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: That is a matter for the national harbours board. Inasmuch as the harbour of Halifax is concerned, this was taken up with them at one time and another. It is not a matter which is under the control of the navy.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: It is not under the navy?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: No.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Is it not the navy boats which would partly be responsible for that condition? Would it arise from the boats in convoys?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I suppose so. You always have oil when you have a large number of ships. Probably some of the oil comes from navy ships and some from merchant ships.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: That is being checked, is it?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I know that some time ago, a year or so ago, the citizens of Halifax were appealing to the national harbours board to see what it could do to lessen this flow of oil into the waters of the harbour; but it' is very difficult to prevent it when there are so many ships in the harbour.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Is the item carried?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I think one hon. member wanted item 11 to stand over.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: It would be quite satisfactory if I could speak on item 12 or 13 upon a matter which pertains to item 11.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
12. Miscellaneous stores and services: printing, stationery, laundry, office machinery, teletype rental, et cetera, $8,873,210.
Mr. ADAMSON:: Is there such a body as the Royal Canadian Navy Film society, showing films on board ship?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Yes.
1598	COMMONS
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Agar Rodney Adamson: And that i3 distinct from all the auxiliary services? Could the minister explain that? I have had some inquiries concerning its operation.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I should be glad to send my hon. friend the first annual report. Probably that would be the best way of answering his question. I am sure he would be interested in it. It is called the Royal Canadian Navy Film Society, and consists of a committee, mostly of naval officers. Associated with them is the dominion film commissioner. The report indicates what they have done during the year.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Thank you very much for offering to send me a copy of the report. Who is the motion-picture officer? There is a motion-picture officer, I understand, is there not?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I myself am the honorary president of the society, but I regret to say that I have been of very little assistance.


Mr. GOLDING:: Clark Gable Macdonald!


Angus Lewis Macdonald: The chairman of the committee is Captain Brand, of the navy; and the manager, who might be called the film officer, is Lieutenant D. S. Rubin, R.C.N.V.R.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I understand the operation is that they buy films from the United States-first-run films or other sorts-and show them at a fixed fee, the ratings paying five cents and the officers twenty-five cents. However, it will all be in the report. Are those the general principles?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I am not sure that there is a charge for each particular performance. I notice that the society obtains a revenue from showing its programmes in ships and making a charge of twenty-five cents per officer and five cents per man.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Per performance?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: 
Agar Rodney Adamson: And that money goes for the purchase of films and equipment? .


Angus Lewis Macdonald: That is right.


Agar Rodney Adamson: And presumably it is done through the motion-picture officer, Lieutenant Rubin?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Lieutenant Rubin is the manager, yes.


James Alexander Marshall: Could the minister put on Hansard the amount which his department spends for rentals? I am only interested in the one item of teletype rental, but it would be appreciated if the minister would place on Hansard a statement of the amount his department spends from year to year in connection with the rental of office machines such as typewriters. The amount which the government as a whole spends for the renting of these machines runs into millions of dollars a year.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: My hon. friend is speaking of typewriters and other types of office machines? I do not think we rent any typewriters. I shall look into the matter and see if there is any other type of office equipment that we rent.


James Alexander Marshall: How much has the minister set aside for this particular item this year?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: For new typewriters and office machines we have $110,071; repairs to machines, $42,947.


James Alexander Marshall: Are these rental fees?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: No, these are machines which we own. I think we own all our typewriters. Perhaps there are some machines such as the Hollerith, and perhaps some of the teletype machines, which we rent, but I will look into that and get the information for the hon. member.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Last night I announced that we would finish with these estimates at six o'clock and go on with agriculture estimates at eight o'clock. Would there be any objection to finishing the last item at eight o'clock?


Grote Stirling: There are a great many answers to questions which the minister, when he is ready, is to bring down.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I am going to bring down answers to all which were asked me yesterday, but some of the questions asked this afternoon I am afraid I could not answer to-night.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Is the committee in agreement that we proceed with this at eight o'clock?


Grote Stirling: I wish the minister's intimation had been given to us rather earlier, so that we might have got in touch with those who expect the agriculture estimates at eight o'clock; but I do not think we should raise objection under the circumstances.
Item stands.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.

War Appropriation-Naval Services
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Mr. Chairman, I might be allowed now to put on Hansard answers to certain questions which were asked during the course of the discussion on these estimates. The hon. member for Vancouver South asked a question about the defence of the Pacific coast and the fishermen's reserve. I may tell him that the fishermen's reserve is being disbanded as a reserve. Instructions to that effect have been issued. Members of the reserve are now given the opportunity of joining either the Royal Canadian Naval Reserve or the Royal Canadian Naval Volunteer Reserve or of returning to their pursuit of fishing. The fishermen's reserve was organized before the war, I think in 1937 or 1938, for, as I understand, one particular purpose, and that was based on the knowledge which these men had of the coast. They were to serve in their own boats on the west coast. Later I think that term of service was extended to apply to service anywhere in their own boats. The main purpose for which they were organized they have discharged and discharged, I believe, very satisfactorily. They had charge of rounding up the Japanese fishing boats on the British Columbia coast, and they did that, I believe, very successfully, taking into their charge in all some one thousand boats. The situation is different now from what it was in the early days of the war. The menace from Japanese boats on that coast has disappeared. The boats have all been taken. We ourselves have a stronger naval force there than we had in the beginning. In all the circumstances it was felt that the fishermen's reserve might be disbanded, and1 that has been done.
I should like to say a word of appreciation to these men for what they did and how effectively and loyally they carried out their duties. I understand that some of the fishermen's reserve craft are being returned to their owners, but approximately thirty boats are being retained by the navy, and most of them will be employed on patrol work.


Grote Stirling: And paid for on an agreed sum? What about the condition of the boats that have been in service these seven years? Will they be refitted if they are to be in need of refitting?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I
should assume that would be the case, although I am not quite sure on that point. I should assume that we shall endeavour to refit the boats, but I shall have that point looked into.


Mr. GREEN:: Is the minister through with his statement in regard to the fishermen's reserve?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Yes, unless my hon. friend wants to amplify it.


Howard Charles Green: Has a provision been made whereby the fishermen will still be considered as a naval reserve of some kind? I think such a reserve would be of great value even in peace time, and if the Japanese were to attempt a raid on the Pacific coast now such a reserve would also be a great help. Would it not be possible to make some provision whereby these fishermen would still be a reserve of the Canadian navy?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I do not know that my hon. friend was in at the beginning when I stated that these men who belonged to the fishermen's reserve had the choice of joining the R.C.N.R. or the R.C.N.V.R. or of going back to their regular pursuit of fishing. They can do any one of those three things. The man who goes back to fishing will be out of the navy. The man who stays in the R.C.N.R. or the R.C.N.V.R. will be in the navy.


Mr. NEILL:: What will become of the boat of the fisherman who decides to go into the navy?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I said that about thirty of those boats are being retained and I assume they would be manned by those members of the reserve who go into the regular navy.


Alan Webster Neill: They would still stay on the
Pacific coast?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Oh,
yes.


Howard Charles Green: Personally I regret very much that the force has been disbanded. Would it not be possible to set them up as a reserve similar to the reserve army? In other words, the men might go back to their fishing but still constitute a fishermen's reserve of the Royal Canadian Navy. I suggest that some such arrangement would be very beneficial on the Pacific coast.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: The navy has no reserve as such in war time similar to the reserve army. I have no doubt that after the war, however, these men would be welcomed in either the naval reserve or the naval volunteer reserve; but to-day every man in the navy is on active service, and consequently I do not see how we can very well begin to set up a reserve force which is not on active service at this time.


Howard Charles Green: I thought that was the position when the fishermen's reserve was first established. If I remember correctly, it was

War Appropriation-Naval Services
established before the war. The Minister of Pensions and National Health can correct me if I am wrong.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: Why could these fishermen not revert to the same status; in other words, why could we not have a fishermen's reserve? There is not one on the Atlantic coast, I know. But on the west coast they would serve a very useful purpose.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: As I have intimated, the great purpose-I am given to understand so by the personnel officers of my department-in forming the fishermen's reserve was that which they have already carried out. My hon. friend will understand that their boats are small. . They are fishing boats. They are really not combat boats but they are very useful for patrol purposes. These men know the British Columbia coast. They were able, consequently, to seize many of those Japanese boats which were on the coast at the outbreak of war with Japan. I believe that was one of the greatest purposes in having them formed, to deal with any danger which might arise from the outbreak of war with Japan. They discharged that duty. They did seize a thousand Japanese boats, acquired them, rounded them up.


Howard Charles Green: That was all done in a few days.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I know, but if these men had not been there some of those boats might have been prowling around for months. The fishermen's reserve knew where to go to get the boats and they got them. The danger from Japanese coastal boats operating to-day has now disappeared through the efforts of these men.


Howard Charles Green: It disappeared right after Japan struck.	.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Yes, it disappeared, and therefore the need for continuing the reserve did not appear to the officers of the department to be as great as it used to be, and the course which I have outlined was decided upon and is now being carried out. The terms of their enlistment were limited. At first the terms were that they would be used only on the west coast and only in their own boats. That was later extended to a provision that they would go anywhere, provided they went in their own boats. That is not full active service as we understand it in the navy. Consequently it was considered better at this time to make a clear demarcation and say to them "If you wish to go fishing, you may do so Fishing
[Mr. Green.J
is a very important industry, and you may return to it; or if you prefer you may remain in the navy." That is the choice we have given them, and they are now acting according to their own desires.


Howard Charles Green: I would ask the minister to give some further consideration to the whole question. On the Pacific coast the army has units known as the Pacific coast militia rangers, whose work is really reconnaissance the same as the work of the fishermen. The rangers are still carrying on, and doing very good) work; and I think some similar scheme could be worked out for the fishermen.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I
shall be very glad to consider that.


Thomas Reid: I think a little more should be said on behalf of the fishermen's reserve, in support of the remarks of the hon. member for Vancouver South. I would say that the fishermen's reserve did much more work on the Pacific coast than merely taking in the Japanese boats.


Howard Charles Green: Very much more.


Thomas Reid: It is all very well to look at the situation now, but remember what we were faced with in 1939, 1940 and 1941. No one knew what the Japanese would do, and these fishermen performed a splendid service. I believe more should be said about them. I will say this to the minister. I have discussed this matter with men in the fishermen's reserve, and they say, "There is no use in our attempting to go into the navy, because we have not been to college. If we do join the navy we are looked down upon by the naval man who has been at college." But they add, "We can take any of the boats and go into any bay in British Columbia, or take it to any town or village on the coast, which these men who have been to college cannot do." Most of the men to whom I have spoken say that there is no use in their going into the navy, and they are going back into industrial life. I rose particularly to tell the minister that these men served a much more useful purpose than merely seizing the Japanese boats. Now these men have been discarded, and I should like to know if they will get any consideration in connection with the granting of pensions. We considered these men extremely valuable two years ago, and we do not know when they may be needed again, because we have very little in the way of a navy on the Pacific coast.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: My hon. friend must realize that one cannot defend a coast with fishing boats.


Thomas Reid: We do not intend to.

War Appropriation-Naval Services


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Then what is the point? The fishermen's reserve performed a very useful service in capturing these Japanese boats and in reconnoitering the bays and harbours along the British Columbia coast; but to say that any such reserve is capable of dealing with anything in the nature of an attack is simply to lose all sense of proportion. They cannot do it, and it was never contemplated that they should do it. It was contemplated that they would do certain reconnaissance work and take over the Japanese fishing boats should any trouble arise with Japan, as trouble did arise; and they performed a very useful and valuable function. As to these men saying that they have no chance in the navy because they are not college men, I cannot understand that attitude. To-day in the Royal Canadian Navy there are a thousand officers from the naval reserve; that is, from the merchant service. How many of those were college men? Very few, I should think; they are practical seamen, but they are holding various positions in the navy from skipper to skipper-lieutenant, to lieutenant, up to lieutenant commander and commander, and some of them have the rank of captain. These men are in very much the same position as members of the fishermen's reserve; they are practical seamen, and one thousand of them have obtained commissioned rank. So that I think it is unfair to assume that because a man does not have a college education he cannot get anywhere in the navy.


Thomas Reid: How many from the fishermen's reserve have joined the navy?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I can give my hon. friend that figure.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: Many hon. members have already paid tribute in glowing terms to the minister, the officers and men of the Royal Canadian Navy and the officials of the Department of National Defence for Naval Services. I have in mind particularly the contribution that has been made by hon. members from Nova Scotia. The hon. member for Queens-Lunen-burg referred to the splendid facilities at Deep Brook, if not the largest, one of the largest, training centres in the British empire. The hon. member for Shelburne-Yarmouth-Clare referred to the naval repair facilities, and expressed the hope that in the post-war period these shipyard facilities would continue to operate as they are doing at the present time. Then my colleague from Halifax referred to our city, dealing more particularly with housing and other related conditions ap applied to the naval service. I should like to support the remarks of my colleague from Halifax, and ask the minister to give these matters his most favourable attention. Having been premier of Nova Scotia for many years, the minister is familiar with conditions not only in the city of Halifax but throughout the province. He knows it is necessary to prepare post-war plans that will keep Nova Scotia in its present favourable position, if we are to satisfy the fishermen and other elements in that province. A great many men of Nova Scotia have entered the naval service; in fact it is well known that there has always been a waiting list of men desiring to join the navy, particularly from the fishing districts, where the young men are very anxious to take part in the activities of the naval service.
My colleague made a very strong case on behalf of the port of Halifax. We all remember that in the last war Halifax played a very important part in connection with the handling of munitions, the assembling of convoys and the transportation of troops from Canada to England, and it has played an equally important part in this war. Our thought in Nova Scotia, and perhaps more particularly in Halifax, has been expressed by the hon. member for Cumberland; that is, we do not want to be forgotten when the war is over. We want Halifax to continue to be the main artery for goods entering and leaving Canada from and to overseas. We believe the eastern ports should be used to their full capacity in connection with overseas trade. In the past we have seen shipments of grain, cattle and other supplies sent through United States ports because it is alleged that the shorter rail haul to those ports makes it more economical to ship that way. I trust that the minister, with his knowledge of the requirements of Nova Scotia, realizing the important part that Halifax has played in the war effort, will not permit that condition to exist following this war, when victory will have crowned the efforts of the united nations.
I should like to endorse the very fine tributes that have been paid to the activities of the Royal Canadian Navy. I do not propose at this late hour to make any extended remarks in that connection, but there are one or two items I wish to bring to the attention of the minister. While we in Nova Scotia, each and every one of us, as has been stated by other hon. members, place the winning of the war as first and foremost in our thoughts, we do feel that members of this committee should give some thought to post-war plans. We consider that these plans are necessary in the far east coast perhaps to a greater extent

War Appropriation-Naval Services
than in central Canada. There are in this section of Canada industrial activities which will carry on for many years, probably for fifteen or twenty or more years, but we in the extreme east-and I believe the same applies to the extreme west-have not enjoyed that development to the same extent. I say we must make plans which will include all parts of Canada and more particularly have I in mind my native province of Nova Scotia.
No one can say how soon or how suddenly this war may end. It is anyone's guess as to just how long or how brief a time may pass before victory will be ours. No one can foretell. But one thing is sure, namely, that we cannot begin too early to plan for the post-war period. Long before the ink is dry on the peace treaty we must be ready to deal with the problems of peace. It is because of that I place before the minister the necessity of carrying on shipbuilding, and more particularly ship repairing in Nova Scotia.
My main thought in rising to take part in the debate is to deal with activities which will come directly under the item before the committee. I refer to the work carried' on by the smaller craft. Other hon. members have spoken about the great work of the destroyers and the corvettes. I have in mind particularly the work being done at the port of Halifax and along the shore by smaller craft such as auxiliary vessels, armed yachts, Fairmiles and1 mine-sweepers.
I pause to speak about mine-sweepers. If any hon. member were to visit the city of Halifax or the town of Dartmouth early in the morning at any time of the year, perhaps as early as five o'clock, and in any kind of weather-possibly a stormy winter morning- he would see mine-sweepers nosing out toward the head of the harbour. There the minesweepers clear the path for the convoys. The minister outlined1 in detail what took place off the head of Halifax harbour last June when a large number of mines-I do not care to mention the number, because the minister did not do so-were sown in the path of the outgoing ships. It is this type of work, carried on by the men who serve on these mine-sweepers, that has made possible for us the shipping overseas of great cargoes with a minimum of loss, so that our men over there may be fed, so that supplies may go to England, and munitions be supplied to our troops, who are helping to fight the battle for freedom.
Therefore I say that Halifax, and the men who serve in that port, have played1 a very important part in this war. I pay my tribute to those men who daily face hardships in their task of keeping clear and making safe the passage to and from the port of Halifax.

I hold in my hand1 a booklet in which appear views of Halifax harbour, depicting more particularly some of the large ships which sail into that port, unassisted, without the use of tugs. To illustrate that, one need1 only think of the Empress of Britain, a ship of 42,348 tons, sailing in, without tugs towing her, as it did in June, 1939, when carrying the King and Queen. She made a complete turn in our harbour and sailed out to sea. Remembering that, hon. members will have some idea of the type of harbour we have in the extreme east at the Atlantic coast port of Halifax.
I listened with interest and attention to the hon. member for Vancouver South and the hon. member for Victoria, British Columbia, tell us about the harbours on the Pacific coast. I do not wish to make any attempt to detract from Vancouver harbour, or any other harbour on the west coast; but I do point out that at Halifax we have one of the grandest, finest and most natural harbours in the world to-day.
I refer now to the second picture in this booklet, showing three large liners.


An hon. MEMBER:: What about Saint John.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: What about Saint John? I
hesitate to make a comparison betwen Saint John and Halifax. One who knows the real facts seldom does. I am reminded of a story I heard some years ago about a number of visitors who were spending some time in Saint John-and I hope the hon. member for Royal will not take exception to the story. These visitors who were in Saint John one evening were wondering what they might do to fill in an hour's time. One of them had a bright idea, and said, " Let us go down, wait around and see the tide come in." We have no tides in Halifax harbour, so that we do not have to wait for them. We have no ice there in the winter. It is a port which can be used 365 days in the year. Ships sail in at all times, without the least trouble so far as tides are concerned. Not a single dollar has been spent on dredging in that port as long as I can remember-and I am getting up in years. To my knowledge, for at least thirty-five or forty years, not one dollar has been spent for that reason. So that the excellence of our harbour, for the use not only of our own Royal Canadian Navy, but of those of allied nations, must be apparent to all.
May I refer again to the service being rendered by the men who sail on small craft. The night of Wednesday, February 24, was exceptionally stormy at Halifax. Eighteen inches of snow fell that night, and the velocity of the wind was said to be fifty miles an hour. Had any of you hon. gentlemen been at

War Appropriation-Naval Services
Halifax on that night, with your coat collars turned up, your gloves on, wearing your overshoes, and with your hat pulled down over your ears, you would have still felt the effect of the wind. I wonder if you can visualize these small craft sent out that night to carry on patrol work. Would the minister give this matter some thought? Would he consider whether it is necessary to send out the small Fairmile craft on such stormy nights? I realize fully that the work must be done, but I am just a little concerned as to whether it is altogether necessary to send out these small boats on nights such as I have described.
I bring this matter to the attention of the minister because of a front-page article which appeared in one of the Halifax papers at that time. Quite naturally the article states:
Six tiny Fairmile launches push their sleek noses into the teeth of the worst maritime blizzard in years, February 24, on sudden orders to supply patrol protection, presumably for a convoy.
There is another type of man in whom I am interested, the man who is wounded or who, because of the type of service he has rendered, is not able to continue in active duty. I do not desire to take up much time in discussing this matter. When I was in Halifax a short time ago I visited the military hospital. I saw one man who had been returned from overseas with twelve wounds in his arms and head. I saw another Halifax man who, I regret to say, is not likely ever to leave that hospital. Many of these men require rest, and it is to them I direct the attention of the minister. A man may have served his country well overseas, or in the navy on shore patrol or on the high seas. At times he requires rest, and I suggest to the minister that there should be a rest or convalescent home in Nova Scotia situated close to Halifax where these men could regain their health in order to be able once more to take up their dangerous tasks. I have no particular place in mind and I know the minister is familiar with the beauty spots along our rugged shore. There are a number of places, such as beautiful St. Margaret or Queensland or Hubbard or many other such places. Any one of those would be an ideal place in which to locate a rest home such as I have in mind. Not only would such a home serve the navy, but it could be used to bring others back to a normal state of health. When you have something good to sell, you have a fairly easy task; when you have something nice to talk about, you can go on for any length of time, but I shall not say anything further about the port of Halifax. I do hope the minister will give consideration to this suggestion of having a convalescent home close to the naval base of Halifax.


Moses Elijah McGarry: I should like to say just a word on this matter. It was my intention .to make some complimentary references to the port of Halifax. The senior hon. member for Halifax has said quite a bit about that port, and since the rules of the house will not permit needless repetition there is perhaps nothing more I can say on that subject at this time. The eloquent and informative address made by the minister when introducing his estimates outlined an amazing achievement. The lucid outline of the growth of our navy, the wonderful service it has performed in this global war and the bravery of our boys who man our ships is a story that should incite pardonable pride in the hearts of all Canadians. It is only another instance of what a resourceful country with a patriotic people can achieve in cooperation with a ministry well manned, well planned and possessing the wisdom to select the executive and key men capable of initiating, developing and bringing to a successful conclusion the most amazing job that has been done by our navy.
I am sure we were all pleased and encouraged with the prospectus of the future submitted by the minister. I think from what he said we can hope that our navy will be maintained at sufficient strength to keep our sea lanes open and to protect and give freedom of the seas to our merchant marine which we expect to be plying the seven seas, carrying to other countries those commodities which they need and which they cannot produce and returning to Canada laden with the products of those countries. If it is the hope of our government that our navy is to be kept to that strength; if our merchant marine is to be maintained, then may we hope that the means of repairing and rebuilding these ships will also be maintained. When the time of peace comes and when rehabilitation is taking place in every phase of the life of this country, if shipyards are found to be necessary; if naval bases are found to be necessary, we hope that they will be maintained in the locations they now occupy and that we shall not be subjected to a programme of centralization which would destroy rather than enhance our prospects so far as our commercial life is concerned.


Mr. MAYHEW:: I am not rising to extol the virtues of Esquimalt harbour; I rise to pay a just compliment to the fishermen's reserve and the Vancouver island motor-boat squadron which served us so faithfully in British Columbia, particularly on Vancouver island, at a time when we were a little nervous as to what was going to happen. After December, 1942, the Japs began to come closer to our Canadian shores by way of the Aleutian islands.
ie04

War Appropriation-Naval Services
Many of us were concerned about how far they would come and we were anxious to get all the protection possible, not only from the fishermen in that part of British Columbia but also from the Vancouver island motorboat squadron. The latter were serving entirely voluntarily. They were prepared to move troops at any time from one part of the island to the other or to evacuate the citizens of the island should that become necessary. I do not think that I as the member for Victoria, B.C., and speaking also for 'he district of Nanaimo-Captain Chambers s on duty-should let this occasion pass without saying "Thank you" to these people.
Further, I should like publicly to thank the private owners of motor-boats in Seattle. They invited a committee from Vancouver and Victoria to confer with a similar committee in Seattle to discuss the possibility of evacuating the citizens of Vancouver island. At the conclusion of a short meeting they offered to look after all the people on the southern end of the island, leaving the responsibility of the evacuation of the northern end to the Vancouver island motor-boat squadron. I think now is the time, Mr. Chairman, that we should recognize that service.
If the minister feels that the time has come when he can dispense with the services of the fishermen, I think they, too, should be duly thanked. We are, of course, delighted that the building of boats has progressed to such a point that the minister can afford to do that and that the fortunes of war have so changed that the danger is not now so apparent as it was then. I rise on this occasion to thank those three classes of people, the fishermen, the Vancouver island motor-boat squadron, ind the private owners of motor-boats in Seattle and northern Washington.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Mr. Chairman, it is not my intention to make any extended remarks, but f must say I was surprised that the senior hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Isnor) went out of lis way a few moments ago to abuse the port of Saint John, New Brunswick. I am sorry that the hon. member who represents Saint John is not here to-night because of illness. I am quite sure that he would have taken up the cudgels on behalf of his native city had he been here.
When I was speaking the other night I mentioned the fact that the ports of Saint John and Halifax should not be forgotten after the war is over. No one recognizes more clearly than I what a splendid asset this country has in the great port of Halifax, but I also recognize, as I am sure do the people of Canada, we have also a splendid port in TMr. Mayhew.]
Saint John, which is to-day and has been for a great many years, one of the great winter ports of this country, and whose worth to the Dominion of Canada cannot be overestimated. In the city of Saint John, as the minister mentioned to-day, we have one of the largest dry docks in existence in the British empire; as a matter of fact, I think it was the largest dry dock in the empire until just a few years ago. In that dry dock during this war a great many naval vessels and a great many merchant ships have been repaired.
I just wanted to take this opportunity, as one who lives in the province of New Brunswick and close to the port of Saint John, to say that we are very proud indeed of the port of Saint John, and also to express the opinion that the Dominion of Canada as a whole owes a great debt to this port, as I think all Canadians whether they come from Halifax or any other part of this country should recognize freely and fully.


Mr. MUTCH:: I should like to say, as one coming from the maritime province of Manitoba, that we have been forgotten in that capacity. I wish to join this testimonial meeting to-night with respect to the merits and possibilities for after-the-war development of various parts of this country, to draw again to the attention of the government and of this House of Commons the too often forgotten port of Churchill. Those of us who live in the west and fought for a considerable period of time to have that port established have viewed with some disquietude its almost complete lack of use and the complete lack of consideration for it during the war period, and I am now just giving notice that in the days to come, when our thoughts will be turned more to the internal development of Canada than they are to-day, more will be heard of the port of Churchill and the maritime province of Manitoba.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I was very glad to hear the hon. members representing Saint John and Halifax speak on behalf of those great ports, and I quite agree with what they said. I think, however, when they were speaking of these great ports, they should have given thanks and praise to the women of the women's naval auxiliaries of Canada for supplying the men who go out on ships from these ports with warm clothing and many other comforts. I think these women deserve a great deal of credit.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
IS. Sundries: postage, pilotage, prize funds and other costs not included in items, $2,748,101.
Angus Lewis Macdonald: Before we proceed with this item perhaps I

War Appropriation-Naval Services
might give the answers to questions that have been asked by various members. To answer, first, questions that were asked with regard to the medical side of the naval service, the figure of 4-9 doctors per thousand personnel which was referred to includes forty doctors who were serving with the British navy and who took no part whatever in caring for Royal Canadian Navy personnel. If you excluded that figure, and it should properly be excluded, the number of medical officers in the Royal Canadian Navy would be four per thousand.
I was also asked how many ships carry medical officers. The number of our ships carrying medical officers is forty-seven.
I was also asked what happened on ships that had no medical officer aboard. In that case, ships of the corvette class, which do not ordinarily carry a medical officer, carry a sick-berth rating. These are ratings specially trained in first aid and the treatment of minor illnesses. Many of them are graduate male nurses. Ships of still smaller types such as motor torpedo-boats and Fairmiles and similar craft usually operate from a base or depot ship where adequate medical facilities exist, so that the need of having somebody skilled in medicine aboard is not so great. In escort or convoy work there is always one and there are usually two medical officers in each group of escort ships, whose services are available to any ship in the group. In addition, ten per cent of the crews of all ships have had instruction in first aid.
I was asked by the hon. member for Yale what steps had been taken to control venereal disease. At the larger bases, venereal disease control officers have been appointed, whose duty it is to check the ravages and the spread of this disease. There is also a veneral disease control officer at naval service headquarters. All medical officers and all commanding officers have been advised as to the most effective measures which can be taken to control the disease. All naval personnel are given lectures from time to time, beginning as soon as they enter the service, on how this disease can be avoided.
My hon. friend the member for Cumberland asked about night vision. I am able to tell him that facilities for testing night vision are available at Cornwallis, at Halifax, Esquimalt and at St. John's, Newfoundland. The majority of officers and ratings of the seaman and signal branch have been tested for night vision, and the testing is still going on as rapidly as conditions permit.
The hon. member for Peterborough West asked as to the number of civilian personnel in Newfoundland. On January 31 of this year
we had 253 civilian personnel in Newfoundland. I do not include in that figure hourly-paid workers but just civil servants properly so-called, and they numbered 253.
I was asked by the hon. member for Vancouver South something about the training at Cornwallis and Kings. I was asked to endeavour to find out what the exact percentage of failures was. I think somebody suggested that I take the last ten classes. I have here the total number of naval personnel who were officer candidates at Cornwallis during the period from August 10 to February 8 last. I find that the number of failures is just under thirty-three per cent. That is the number over that period of seven months.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Was there any month when the failures were extremely high?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: The numbers vary. Usually these men come up every week before the selection board, and the number who appear before the board varies. Sometimes it is as low as nine; at other times as many as twenty-seven appear in one week, and the number of failures consequently varies. Some weeks it has been two; some weeks, 12; some weeks, four; other weeks, nine, and so on. What particular week had my hon. friend in mind?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I
believe that last night the month of December was mentioned. It was either the latter part of November or the first part of December when, according to these boys, so many of them failed.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Yes; in one week of December the percentage was thirty per cent; another week, twenty-seven per cent; another week, thirty per cent; another week, sixty per cent.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Sixty per cent?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Sixty per cent in one week in December, yes.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Probably that is the week.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: That may be the particular week, but it is difficult to draw any general conclusions from the figures for one week. I think the best test would be to take the whole period of the operation of the school at Cornwallis, for which, as I say, the number of failures is just about thirty-three per cent.

War Appropriation-Naval Services


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I think the reason why these boys brought the matter up is that, on the examination before they tried, there had been very few failures, and then in their week practically all failed.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: As I say, it varies from time to time. That is the general story so far as Cornwallis is concerned.
I was asked something about the depth of the water at the end of the wharf at Cornwallis. I have not been there for some time, but I am informed that it varies from six to ten feet at the head of the wharf at low water. There is about a 29-foot tide, so that at high water there would be a considerable depth at the end of the pier.
The hon. member for Yale wanted to know about the sea cadet camp at Comox. I understand that that camp will not be used in the coming summer, and that instead, a camp at a place called Whiteclilf park, some fifteen miles from Vancouver, will be used by the sea cadets of British Columbia.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Where is that?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Whitecliff park is near Vancouver. I am told by the sea cadet authorities that this will be one of the best camp locations in all Canada.


Alan Webster Neill: Do I understand the minister to say that they are closing down that camp near Comox? If so, can he give us any idea of how much money has been spent in putting that camp there? They put extensive buildings there last year and the year before, and it is a thoroughly equipped camp. After all that expense, what is the idea of shutting it down?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: As I said last night, the naval service does not provide those camps; they are provided by the Navy League of Canada, or by other nongovernment bodies. I understand that the site near Comox is being used for other purposes, for training of army personnel, and that that is why the sea cadets cannot use that locality in the coming summer. It is solely a matter for the Navy League. We do not build those camps or pay for them.


Alan Webster Neill: The navy use the Comox one anyway. They used it all summer.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: The sea cadets.


George Alexander Cruickshank: What is Whitecliff camp used for?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: As a sea cadet camp during the coming summer.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Might I ask on whose recommendation that is to be used, and who owns it now?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: As I said, I have no particular reason for giving this information, because the matter does not come under my jurisdiction in any way. I have nothing to do with the provision of camps for sea cadets. That is done by the Navy League of Canada mainly, and while I do not know this definitely, I assume that the British Columbia branch of the Navy League are the people who arranged for this site.
I believe the hon. member for Yale also asked how much of our wireless equipment was made in Canada. As far as we can estimate up to date, Canada supplied 47-6 per cent; the United States, 33-2 per cent, and the United Kingdom, 19-2 per cent.
The hon. member for Cumberland asked about the cost of repairs to ships. I told him it would take some time to get the individual cost of each ship or of any particular ship, and that it would be very difficult to separate repairs from alterations and additions, which, strictly speaking, are not repairs at all but which are usually carried on at the same time as repairs. The total cost of repairing corvettes during the year was $3,984,000; that is an average of roughly $50,000 per ship. The average cost of repairs, alterations and additions to destroyers was in the neighbourhood of $170,000 per ship. The cost for minesweepers was about $25,000 per ship.
The Jion. member for Camrose asked about office machines. We estimate that for the present fiscal year the cost of all rentals of that kind will be about $10,500. That includes every type of office machine-duplicators, adding machines and so on.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I asked the minister last night in connection wtih the barracks at Aldergrove; and I should1 like also to ask who recommended Whitecliff.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I
am telling my hon. friend that he knows as much about that as I do.


George Alexander Cruickshank: No, I do not.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Well, I know nothing about it. I went out of my way to get information about the sea cadets, but I do not select camps for the sea cadets, nor do I pay for the construction of camps. We cooperate with the Navy League of Canada, which has general supervision over sea cadets, to this extent, that we send some officers there to supervise the training. But we have nothing whatever to do with selecting

War Appropriation-Naval Services
the site, building the camp, or paying for it. That is done by the Navy League and I should assume that in this case it was dealt with, by the British Columbia branch of the league.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I asked a question yesterday in connection with the barracks at Aldergrove. First of all, may I thank the minister for his revelation. I should like him to give me a reply to my question of yesterday.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: The matter about which the hon. member for Fraser Valley inquired may be answered in this way:	There are two stations in the locality,
one a receiving station and the other a sending station. I do not know a great deal about the technical side of this, but I am informed that the stations have to be some distance apart for technical reasons. Consequently in this case they are some fifteen miles apart. Both stations will be completed shortly. The permanent accommodation for the personnel is being provided at one station only, which will take care of about fifty persons, two officers and a little over forty men, but it will be all at one place. The men who go from one station to the other will be transported by panel truck and they will be returned to their barracks at night.


George Alexander Cruickshank: It will be a permanent barracks?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I do not know that it will be permanent, but it will be good for the war at any rate.


Mr. GILLIS:: In the course of my remarks on the minister's estimates I endeavoured to focus his attention on the position of medical doctors in the merchant navy. Has the minister done any thinking about that? While he correctly points out that his department has no jurisdiction over the merchant marine, that it comes under the Department of Transport, yet the port medical examining officers of the merchant navy are called up. The Department of Transport has no power to call up men; therefore some defence department institutes the call in the first instance.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Not the navy. I may tell my hon. friend that we do not call anybody up. It must be selective service.


Clarence Gillis: It is pretty much the one organization.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: No.


Clarence Gillis: The naval examining board has the say as to who is accepted. Selective service is merely one of the cogs in the machine.
Mr. MACDONALD (Kingston City). Oh,no.


Clarence Gillis: What I am trying to do is to point out the injustice that is done to the medical officer who is obliged to accept a position-and it is a very important one-in one of our ports across Canada, without the right to wear a uniform, with a great differential in income, without any assignment of pay to his family. Many of these men are of military age and desire transfer to one of the other branches of the service; but they are denied that right. I am wondering what the attitude of the department is with respect to correcting what I consider to be a great injustice to that particular classification. I mentioned it a few days ago. The minister in the course of his remarks pointed out, and, as I said, correctly, that his department had no jurisdiction over the merchant marine. I think someone should accept responsibility for that situation. These men are doing a very important job. They are on call at all hours of the night. This particular matter more properly belongs to the naval department. It is a job that requires a qualified medical practitioner. He is requisitioned for service. I think he should have all of the rights and privileges that go to those in the service, because he has no choice as to what he shall do.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: May I ask my hon. friend a question? Is he sure that those doctors are called up by some department of government and compulsorily assigned to these posts? I do not know of any doctors being called up in this country up to the present. There may be, but I thought the medical doctors had an association or branch called the medical procurement and assignment board that looked after all that, looked after the rights of all doctors. It is lather a surprise to hear that doctors have been called up under some compulsory arrangement and made to serve at ports, as my hon. friend describes.


Clarence Gillis: I am not any more sure of the mechanics than the minister is. I am mentioning the possibilities and I think the minister should know. .


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Why should I? I have nothing whatever to do with the doctors. I am not the Minister of Transport, the Minister of Pensions and National Health or the Minister of Labour. I am trying to run one department. I am not trying to run five or six. I have no more to do with that than I have to do with the call-up of men under the National Resources Mobilization Act.


Clarence Gillis: Every port in Canada is under the jurisdiction of the navy to-day.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Not in that respect.

War Appropriation-Naval Services


Clarence Gillis: A naval commander is in charge of each port. I consider and will hold responsible the Department of National Defence for Naval Services for any matter that occurs in or around those ports.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Order. I believe the minister has answered the question.


Clarence Gillis: He has not answered the question.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I believe it is out of order to discuss this question under item 13. I believe it is the duty of the hon. member to speak on the item now under discussion. The minister has given an answer to the questions that come within the confines of his department.


Clarence Gillis: A few minutes ago the minister undertook to change the order of business in order to answer questions that had been asked previously. The question I am now discussing is one that I asked on a previous occasion. I want an answer to it.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Will my hon. friend state his question then?


Clarence Gillis: My question was stated clearly. I wish to know the attitude of the Department of National Defence for Naval Services with respect to correcting what I consider to be a great injustice to medical men serving as examining officers at the different ports across Canada. These men are classified as serving with the merchant marine.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: What is the injustice?


Clarence Gillis: They are obliged to serve without uniform and without the regular pay and allowances that men in the naval services receive. They are not granted the right of transfer. The minister asked me if I knew what the mechanics were. I know this much about it. I discussed the matter with one doctor, a man of about thirty-five years of age. He tried in every way he could to transfer to one of the other services and was not able to do so. That man would not be in that position voluntarily. I assume that the medical procurement board must have assigned him to that position.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: My hon. friend is stating a totally different proposition now. He began by indicating that this was my responsibility. I suspect that my hon. friend has not the facts of his case correctly. I am not talking about the mechanics or anything of that sort. I am asking if he is sure that certain medical doctors in this country are taken by some government department and

placed in a position in which they do not want to serve. If they are, this is the first I have ever heard of it and I do not think it is so. I do not think my hon. friend has the facts. This man may be employed by the Department of Transport or by the immigration branch or by the Department of Pensions and National Health; I do not know. There is no compulsion about those departments, as I understand it; none at all.


Clarence Gillis: My argument is that these doctors should be given the same rights as the medical doctors in the navy. If the Department of Pensions and National Health is employing them I am very much surprised.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am sorry to intervene in this argument. We have several doctors in the various ports of Canada who are employed mostly for the inspection of sick personnel on ships that come into the harbours. We have tenders, launches. We go out and inspect the ship and we provide hospitalization for the personnel on the ship through our doctors. There is no compulsion whatsoever, so far as I am aware.


Mr. DONNELLY:: These men are civil servants?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I should like to ask another question. To the minister's knowledge has any of the cost in connection with Whitecliff been charged the federal government?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I know nothing of any cost. I did not know of the name Whitecliff until I received a memorandum a few moments ago saying that this was to be the site of that camp. So far as I know there is no cost to this department or this government.


George Hugh Castleden: I have been looking through the list as we have gone along, to see if I could get the figures in regard to the cost of maintaining the Wrens; that is, the women's auxiliary of the naval force. Has the minister the cost of establishing and maintaining the Wrens, as separate from the navy itself? While he is answering that, would he inform the committee whether it is the intention of the department to maintain the Wrens as part of the'permanent naval service.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: As to the first question, I have no separate figures for the cost of the women's division, and I am afraid it would take some considerable time to get them. In a place like Halifax,

War Appropriation-Naval Services
for example, the cost of food for the Wrens and the cost of food for the male personnel would come under one item, but I could make a fairly accurate shot at it. As to the second question, whether it is intended to maintain these services after the war, there has been no decision on that point. I should suppose that the Wrens and the other women's services are pretty much war-time institutions, and that they would likely be disbanded at the end of the war.


George Hugh Castleden: At some future time would the minister give us some estimate of the cost of establishing and maintaining the Wrens to date?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: That would be the cost of pay, clothing, food, and all allowances for the women's service?


George Hugh Castleden: Yes. There is also the cost of establishing the whole Wren arm, the barracks, and so on.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Yes, I will try to get that, but it will take a little time.


George Hugh Castleden: Then perhaps the
minister will take this as notice of the question.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Very well.


Clarence Gillis: I should like the minister to clarify certain naval personnel set out as T124X. The wives of men in this classification do not receive dependents' allowance, and I am at a loss to understand just what that means.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: That is a Royal Navy term. These men are taken out of the merchant service and used on certain naval vessels; I think it is a temporary arrangement. They are called T124X, but they are Royal Navy.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Would the minister tell me under what item I can get some information in connection with what I think are called baby carriers; I am very much interested in those.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Aircraft carriers?


George Alexander Cruickshank: Yes, small ones, that were remodeled in Vancouver. Under what department would that come?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: We do not own any of those carriers in the Canadian navy. I think that would properly come under Munitions and Supply. Some of those
carriers were taken to the west coast of Canada, where certain alterations were made in them. That was done for the British navy, not for the Canadian, navy.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Then with whom should I take that up?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Munitions and Supply would have the information; they carried on the work.


Clarence Gillis: I am still wondering about the personnel to whom I referred a moment ago. Could the minister explain why these men are not entitled to dependents' allowance for their wives?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I am sorry, but since they are not Canadian naval personnel I cannot give my hon. friend that information. He would have to take up the matter with some of the Royal Navy people here, I am afraid; some of them probably could tell him.


Clarence Gillis: They are Canadian nationals attached to the Royal Navy, but according to a letter I have received they are not given the Royal Navy marriage allowance.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: If I had the letter I would be glad to look into the matter, though if they were Canadians who joined the Royal Navy directly, without going through the Canadian navy, they would be out of my control and I would have no record of them. If my hon. friend would send me the letter I should be glad to look into the matter and try to get the information for him either from our own service or from some of the British naval officers here in Ottawa.


Clarence Gillis: I have had it up with the British people, but I did not get much satisfaction.


Mr. FAIR:: Under item 13 what is meant by "prize funds"?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: That is a small amount to provide prizes for proficiency in gunnery, torpedo work, rifle work, pistol shooting and so on. I think the amount is only about $2,000 under that item.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Would the minister tell me with what department I should take up matters in connection with the merchant marine?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: That
would be the Department of Transport, in which there is a director of merchant seamen, Mr. Arthur Randles, who is in charge of all merchant seamen in the country.
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George Alexander Cruickshank: I appreciate the minister's answer; I am not trying to hold up his estimates, but I want this information for my constituents. He tells me that I should take it up with-


Angus Lewis Macdonald: With Mr. Arthur Randles, director of merchant seamen, care of the Department of Transport.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Progress reported.
[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Bradette in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
Science service-
8. Botany and plant pathology, $328,101.
Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: The other
evening, when the minister's estimates were before the committee, I asked what progress was being made in the experiments with the Russian dandelion, from which the Russians are apparently extracting synthetic rubber with some degree of success. I notice, from page 20 of the minister's report, that some experimentation has been going on. Would he care to avail himself of this opportunity to tell, first of all, what progress has been made, and second, what plans his department has for a more extensive use of this Russian dandelion, with a view to using it for the production of synthetic rubber?


Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) :: As I said the other night, the
experiments being carried on in connection with dandelions are being carried on at the experimental farms. I would ask the hon. member to withhold his questions until we reach the experimental farm vote, which is only two or three down the list.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Except that the minister, himself, discussed it in his report for the year ended March 31, 1943. At page 20 the minister devotes almost a whole page to a discussion of the different developments respecting a substitute for rubber, and one for kapok.


James Garfield Gardiner: The only thing I can say is that my hon. friend apparently has read the report, and he has read all I can give him about it. I have in my hand some material which I can read, if it is thought desirable.


Charles Edward Johnston: Is it not true that these dandelions are being raised on farms, in addition *o the experimental farms?


James Garfield Gardiner: I understand they are not; in any event, any information we have with regard to them is gained from the growing of them on the experimental farms. If there is any seed out anywhere it will be as a result of the farm activities. I can give that information much better when we get to the item for experimental farms.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I had in mind what appears in the minister's report, and I thought he might be able to tell us the result of the experiments carried on under this item respecting botany and plant pathology. The hon. member for Mackenzie points out to me that the report ends March 31, 1943, almost a year ago. I would imagine that the department would have gained some further information, first as to the percentage of latex they are getting from this dandelion plant-if I remember correctly the Russian scientists found they were getting about twenty per cent latex. What success have we had with those experiments? Second, does the government plan to make seed available in any large quantities to farmers, or to set up any facilities for the use of latex, when produced for the manufacture of finished rubber products?


James Garfield Gardiner: The research in this
connection is continuing at the present time. Returns obtained are all the way from three per cent to ten per cent. But the experiments have not gone sufficiently far for us to be able to give final information with regard to it. Again I say that this matter can be discussed much more readily and to much better satisfaction when I have before me the officials who are directing those experiments on the farms. Some of the work, naturally, is being done by research people, and some is being done by our own chemists, in connection with examinations into the results from certain plants. But the experimental work is being done on the experimental farms, and when the time comes to distribute the seed they will be the agencies which will make that distribution, just as they make it in connection with wheat, and every other product.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: If the minister prefers to leave it to the experimental farm item, I shall have no objection, except that we would not want to be shut off when we reach that item.


James Garfield Gardiner: No, the discussion will not be shut off. We shall discuss it fully.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Will the minister, under the item for plant pathology, make a statement about the research carried on by his chemists and plant pathologists with regard

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to flax rust. The minister will remember that last year, particularly in Saskatchewan, almost all varieties of flax, with the exception of royal flax, were badly affected with rust. The royal variety seemed to be more rust-resistant than vhe others. A good many thousands of acres of flax were almost competely destroyed1 by the rust. I believe it is the first time in my experience in Canada that I have ever seen flax rust. I remember the minister saying last year that some experiments were being carried on with a view to dealing with it.


James Garfield Gardiner: I am sorry to have to
say again that that is experimental farm work, and that it is being carried1 on there. There was considerable rust on flax last year; that is, in 1942. In 1943 I do not think the rust did the same damage. Of course the reason for the difference in the amount of rust lies in the type of season. There was more moisture in 1942 than in 1943, and the more moisture there is, the more rust of all kinds will be found. But again, I could discuss this item to better advantage when the experimental farm item is before the committee.


George Hugh Castleden: I understand that experiments have been carried on in connection with finding a substitute for kapok. What success has there been in that connection? At the same time he might tell the committee what success we have had in Canada with regard to raising medicinal plants, such as digitalis, belladonna and henbane? What has the department been able to do in connection with supplying Canada with medicinal plants of that kind?


James Garfield Gardiner: The only information
we have, in addition to what appears in the report which, I would judge, hon. members have been reading, is a statement to the effect that, in connection with kapok, in 1942 large quantities of milkweed floss and cat-tail floss were collected for tests being carried out in a search for a substitute for kapok, in cooperation with the national research council and the Royal Canadian Navy. It was shown that floss has a high value for the purpose for which it is being used.
With regard to the other matter in connection with medicinal plants, the division provides information on medicinal and related plants from! many sources from coast to coast. On account of a war-time shortage of drugs and the closing-off of some sources of supply, attention has been given to possible production in Canada. Experimental work has been initiated to provide necessary information. Close contacts have been maintained with the ministries of agriculture and health in the
United Kingdom, the Departments of Trade and Commerce and1 Pensions and National Health, the medicinal plants committee of British Columbia, and manufacturing chemists. Considerable quantites of digitalis, belladonna and1 henbane have been grown to increase the available seed supplies. Most of that work is being carried on in British Columbia.


George Hugh Castleden: Has the minister the
figures as to the actual supply obtained in 1943?


James Garfield Gardiner: No; we have no figures with regard to that. It is practically all being carried on in cooperation with the department of agriculture of British Columbia.


James Alexander Marshall: During the last two years there has been a considerable increase in this item. Last year there was an increase of $25,938 and this year there is an increase of $15,581, approximately $45,000 for the two years. Such an increase requires an explanation and I should like to have it from the minister.


James Garfield Gardiner: The total increase is $15,581, and of this $15,015 is for increases in temporary pay. The cost of living bonus and other items amount to $4,493. Miscellaneous items amount to $293. Then there is a decrease in the payments to the permanent staff amounting to $4,195 and a decrease in rents of $95. When these two are balanced we get a net increase of $15,581.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Is that for extra temporary help taken on or increases in pay for the present temporary staff?


James Garfield Gardiner: Part of it is for extra help taken on and part is to cover statutory increases in pay.


James Alexander Marshall: What type of work is the minister contemplating to warrant an increase of $15,000?


James Garfield Gardiner: It should be remembered that in connection with the civil service the term "temporary" is not used in the sense one would expect it to be. For example, in Saskatchewan, where I had some experience, a person went on the temporary list for six months. If he were kept on for six months, he became permanent. In the dominion service a person may be temporary for twenty years, or even fifty years as my colleague suggests. These temporary people may have been on the staff for a considerable length of time and they get their increases as we go along. Much of this increase is to covei increases in pay of a very considerable staff which has been on from year to year.
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Ernest Edward Perley: Perhaps the minister could explain these increases a little more fully. The details of these three items are given on pages 57, 58 and 59 of the estimates. According to these particulars the increases in travelling expenses would seem to account for more than half the increases in the items. In one item there is an increase of $500, and in the item covering entomology there is an increase of over $9,000. In the item covering plant protection there is an increase of $2,000 for travelling expenses. These increases in travelling expenses amount to about $12,000.


James Garfield Gardiner: The greater part of the increases in travelling expenses are brought about by our having to drive old cars. These cars are getting older and older and we have to drive them greater distances. The result is the repairs bills are higher and these bills appear under travelling expenses.


Ernest Edward Perley: Why should they be so much in connection with entomology? Could not two or three of these branches use the same car, such as botany and plant pathology, entomology and plant protection?


James Garfield Gardiner: We have not reached entomology as yet and I would rather discuss that matter when we get to it.


James J. Donnelly: Has the department had any success in discovering a wheat that will resist the sawfly?


James Garfield Gardiner: There have been no notable results as yet that would be of any use to any one. Studies are being carried on in connection with the campaign against the sawfly, but as yet nothing has been discovered that will help us.


Mr. NICHOLSON:: I am not going to complain about the minister spending too much; I am going to complain about his not spending enough. When we consider what has been done over a period of years by these branches, the small vote being asked for is really quite insignificant. The discovery of rust resistant wheat has meant millions of dollars to the farmers of this country; yet the salaries being paid to some of the scientists at work in our laboratories reflects no credit upon the department or the country. When the minister's estimates were before us the other night I complained about two veterinaries who were receiving $2,520 a year each. The minister stated that they had been with the department for fifteen or twenty years. These men had a college training which cost nearly as much as the training required by a medical doctor.
I have a list taken from the public accounts of the personnel in this botany and plant pathology branch who are receiving over
[Mr. Gardiner.}
$2,400. There are forty-three in the list, but only two receive more than $4,000 a year. Sixteen receive over $3,000, but the great number run $2,400, $2,700, $2,800, and so on. I see the names of some of my classmates in university twenty years ago. These were among the brightest and most promising students in the university. Many of them went to the United States to take postgraduate courses and had a remarkable sense of loyalty when they returned to this country to start in at a salary of $2,000 a year. Now, after nearly twenty years of service some of these men receive salaries below $3,000.
It has been suggested that under a Cooperative Commonwealth Federation government there would be regimentation and no rewards for private initiative. Some of the brighest students in the university of Saskatchewan have turned down offers from private industry and are now working for $2,400 a year. Many of them would have been receiving $10,000 had they remained in the United States. It is not good enough for the Minister of Agriculture to say that because farm products have been selling at low prices the people who are doing research work should be poorly paid. If that is a sound principle, then I suggest that we carry it out in regard to the minister himself. If, when butter is selling at ten cents a pound and eggs at three cents a dozen, the Minister of Agriculture is paid in butter and eggs, then I think we shall quickly have some adjustment in the machinery that determines what returns should come to our farming people.
These scientific people are paid either too much or too little, and in my opinion it is too little. If they had been paid more I feel sure that there would have been better morale among the large staff of the Department of Agriculture and we would have had better leadership from this department during the times when everyone was facing such a difficult situation. Could the minister give the committee any information as to the possibility of these people in his department who are in the $2,400 salary range being able to look forward to getting enough to permit them to own homes in Ottawa or to be able to rent suitable quarters? The cost of living in the capital city of the country is very high, and I do not see how the department can hold at these salaries honour graduates and those who have taken post-graduate courses in United States universities. What are the prospects of having the salaries increased and having promotions made to higher positions?


James Garfield Gardiner: On the general question as to why our expenditures are as low as they are in the different branches. I call attention

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to the fact that in 1940 the appropriations were $13,000,000 for ordinary expenditures in this department. That had decreased to $9,000,000 in 1941 and to $8,887,000 in 1942, and in 1943 the figure was $8,996,000. The only reason for the decreased appropriations is the fact that we are at war, and after we had entered the war our expenditures were reduced. In 1940 the expenditure was, in round figures, $11,800,000; in 1941, $8,500,000; in 1942, $8,400,000, and in 1943, $8,492,000. The figure in the estimates this year for ordinary expenditure is $9,296,000, which is a little higher than it has been for the last two years. As I have said, the only reason for the expenditure being down is the fact that we are at war, and we have not yet got back to the level that prevailed before the war. But if you go back a few more years to the time when I first became Minister of Agriculture in 1935 or 1936, you will find that the estimates were not quite as high then as they are now. They amounted then to between $7,000,000 and $8,000,000; I have not the exact figures before me. We were successful in having the appropriations on ordinary account increased, so that in 1940 they stood at $13,000,000, but since that time we have cut them down because of the war, and I imagine that they will not be greatly increased before the end of the war.
So far as the salaries are concerned, I think every minister in the government believes that his staff is underpaid and from time to time he puts forth an argument in favour of increasing the pay of certain members of his staff. That always results in an examination being made into the salaries paid for comparable positions in other departments. The civil service commission examines into the salaries and classifies the employees of the different departments, and when a man accepts a certain position in the Department of Agriculture or any other department, it does not matter what his university or other qualifications may be, he is paid the salary attached to that particular position. He accepts a position in the civil service in preference to entering the realm of private competition or doing some other work, and he is paid the salary that pertains to his position. The positions are filled as a result of persons making application for vacancies that are advertised by the civil service commission in the press and at post offices throughout the country.
As I said the other night, every employee in a particular branch is a veterinary, and while it is true that two of them are receiving $2,400 a year, others are receiving between $4,000 and $5,000 a year. So that just the fact that they are veterinaries does not explain the whole
thing. It is the particular job the individual is doing that fixes his compensation. I do not know that there is anything more I can add. We all would like to see pay increases for the staff, but that would mean collecting more taxes with which to pay the higher salaries. If salaries throughout the whole civil service were increased, they would naturally be increased in the Department of Agriculture.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: The minister has had a number of men and women working on the wheat rust problem for a period of years. Would he give the committee the names of those who have been working on rusGresistant wheat and the salaries we are paying them, and state how long we are to have to wait before the employees receive more reasonable compensation?


James Garfield Gardiner: The list of those persons will be found partly under botany and partly under experimental farms, but from the list we have here I could not state who are working full time and who are working only part-time on rust, because many individuals are working on different problems as well as rust. I am afraid I would have to give that information later. I have a Jong list of names here, but until they were sorted out they would not mean much to the committee or to me.


Mr. BURTON:: Do these employees receive superannuation, and, if so, how large a pension would they receive?


James Garfield Gardiner: The Civil Service Superannuation Act is much the same as the Saskatchewan act with which my hon. friend is familiar. As a matter of fact, when I put through.the act in the Saskatchewan legislature it was based on the principles of the federal act so far as pension payments are concerned. The pension is based on the number of years of service, up to a maximum of thirty-five years service. Alter ten years of service the civil servant who is retired is paid one-fiftieth of his average salary for each year of service he has put in. If, for instance, he had put in thirty-five years of service he cojild draw thirty-five-fiftieths of his salary. Contributions are made by salary deductions from the employee's monthly salary, and an equal amount is contributed by the federal treasury into the superannuation fund.


Joseph William Burton: Do the temporary employees also come under the superannuation act?


James Garfield Gardiner: The temporary employees do not come under the superannuation act, but on retirement a payment is made to them which is I think, roughly one month's pay for each year of service.
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James Lester Douglas: So that an employee who had been working for twenty-four years would receive two years salary as a retiring allowance? Is that it?


James Garfield Gardiner: There is a certain limit set. Retiring allowances come under the finance department rather than agriculture, and I would not like to discuss them in too much detail without being sure of the facts.
My understanding is that there is a limit, and I take it that that limit is six years. I am not certain of that.


Ernest Edward Perley: The hon. member for Mackenzie asked a question with respect to certain rust-resisting grain. As I understand it, that would come under the item for experimental farms.


James Garfield Gardiner: That is right.


Ernest Edward Perley: That is why I refrained from asking a question or two at this time.


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, it comes under experimental farms, except that there are some officials in this department who do work on rust.


Robert Fair: Before the minister gets away from the question of superannuation, would he tell the committee at what age the farmer gets his superannuation, and what the amount is? I ask this because I do not believe there is anyone in Canada who works harder or longer hours.


James Garfield Gardiner: The hon. member, being a "fair" farmer himself, can give us that information, I think, better than anyone else.


Mr. WOOD:: That is a very important question which was raised by the hon. member for Battle River-where does the farmer come in as regards superannuation? I should like to tell the hon. member that if he would put aside the price of a package of cigarettes every day from the time he was twenty-one years of age and apply it to the purchase of a government annuity such as we enjoy to-day by virtue of the social legislation brought dojvn by a Liberal government in 1908, he could have superannuation at the rate of $100 a month at the age of sixty-five.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Have you tried it?


George Ernest Wood: That is a Canadian government annuity. And that is my answer to a farmer or any other person who-


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Have you tried it?


George Ernest Wood: Will the hon. member let me finish? The question which has been raised is rather important, although it is probably out

of order as far as the agriculture estimates are concerned, but why not settle it? We are always asking for new legislation to provide new privileges and new ways of doing things. Why not use the things we already have? We have that annuity system, and it has been on the statute books for twenty-five years. Yet an hon. member who takes credit for suggest-ting to the people of this country a new method of making life easier has overlooked this opportunity of setting aside something for his own security.


Robert Fair: Before getting away from this question-


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Order. I really think this whole discussion is out of order.


Robert Fair: The hon. member for Brant was allowed to speak, and I think I should have the right of reply.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I cannot approve this discussion under the present item. It certainly has nothing to do with farmers' superannuation.


Robert Fair: This is the seventeenth of old Ireland, and I should like to have just one more word. I want to advise the hon. gentleman that I do not smoke; also, that the easiest way to get rid of some of the mentality we have in connection with the farmers is to clear the dead-wood out of their organizations.


James Lester Douglas: The hon. member for Brant has supplied us with all the answers except, that to where the farmer is to get money to buy a package of cigarettes every day.
I wish to support the plea of the hon. member for Mackenzie. It seems to me that the whole picture with reference to agriculture is changing very rapidly.


James J. Donnelly: It has changed.


James Lester Douglas: In Great
Britain, the United States, andi the Soviet Union there seem to have been tremendous changes going on, envisaging new uses for agricultural products, interesting farmers in new methods of production, and1 bringing forward scientific methods which were not dreamed of even a few years ago. Part of the reason for the advancement made along these lines is the painstaking work which has been carried on by scientists, not only agricultural research workers but scientists in other fields. I believe the minister is sympathetic to the point of view we are now expressing, and may I say to him that I believe the committee would support him if he came here and pointed out that in the period following the war there will have to be tremendous readjustment in agriculture, and that that readjustment can be made only

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if there are well-trained scientists andi if there is scientific data available to the farmer to begin to meet the post-war problems which will face Canada as one of the great agricultural exporting countries of the world. I feel certain that the minister would get the support of the committee if he would ask for a larger appropriation so as to make it possible not only to pay these scientists well but to get the necessary equipment to set up other laboratories for further research into scientific agriculture.


George Hugh Castleden: Under this item, I
believe, is carried on the dominion government weed survey. Could the minister tell us whether or not the following weeds are on the increase or decrease in the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta: sow-thistle, Canadian thistle, wild- oats, pigweed and mustard seed?


James Garfield Gardiner: We have not the data
as to the general increase or decrease of the weeds mentioned. I can only tell the hon. member that wild oats are decreasing on my farm, that French weed is increasing, and that we did not have any sow-thistle ten years ago but the wind has blown a little in, and we see the occasional one. One could go over the whole province in that way and perhaps, if he examined all the different farms, come to a conclusion whether this or that weed is increasing or decreasing.
Generally speaking, the older the area becomes, the more weeds are to be found there. I think weeds generally have been on- the increase in western Canada ever since I wen-t there, forty-two years ago. At that time you could scarcely find weeds in wheat. Now you can find almost any weed you like to look for without travelling very far in western Canada.
One thing, probably, is not very well understood-. There are insects that sometimes combat weeds. The grasshopper, for example, did a very good job in certain parts of Manitoba a few years ago in destroying sow-thistle, and farmers who live on the Portage la Prairie plains area tell me that you could- go out in the fields and see grasshoppers standing on their heads sucking the last drop of juice out of the roots of the sow-thistle. So that what we call pests, and are pests in one direction, help us in another. That, I think, is true all through the vegetable field. Sometimes we get help where we least expect it. One of the reasons why my farm has less wild oats on it to-day than it had at one time is that-


An hon. MEMBER:: You have been too
busy to sow wild oats.


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, they were sown
before I got there. But there is a particular grub known as the cutworm, which cleans wild oats out of a field- more completely than I have ever been able to do with my summerfallowing.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Since the minister has not readily available the information with regard to work on rust, I would say that I recognize here the names of four or five men who were outstanding honour students of the university. Will the minister tell us what they have been doing in the department? I refer to W. C. Broadfoot, J. E. Machacek, H. W. Mead, and R. C. Russell, whose names appear in the public accounts in the section relating to botany and plant pathology. I might say that the minister's explanation that it is difficult to get additional funds for personnel in a particular department should not hold good now. I have here the public accounts for the Department of Finance, and I find, under the wartime prices and trade board, several pages of salaries including amounts of seven, eight and ten thousand dollars, which amounts do not seem to be of any great concern to the Minister of Finance when it is important to get a job done. Men have been brought in to Ottawa from private industry. I am of the opinion that some of the men from private industry who are getting $6,000 and $8,000 a year are not as capable as men the minister has working for him at $2,400 to $2,600. Could the minister tell us something of the work that is being done by the four men whom I have mentioned?


James Garfield Gardiner: The first two men mentioned are working in our laboratory at Edmonton. The laboratory is located on the campus of the university there. The other two are working in our laboratory at Saskatoon. They are doing similar work, general pathological work in connection with the studies that are being made there.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: How many years have they been there?


James Garfield Gardiner: About seven or eight years.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Would the minister be more specific? Were these men not with the department prior to 1935 or 1936?


James Garfield Gardiner: Well, that is about eight years. They were there when I started.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Where have they been since they finished college in 1923 or 1924?


James Garfield Gardiner: I do not follow the history of everyone who leaves college until he reaches the department.
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Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: My recollection is that these men have been doing the same type of work ever since leaving university. I wish the minister would check more carefully.


James Garfield Gardiner: I have not the date here when they came, but I know they have been there since I came on myself, which is about six or eight years ago. They have been there all that time. As to what date they actually came, I am not in a position to say.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Will the minister find out and let us know?


James Garfield Gardiner: I can find out, yes. What was the other part of the question?


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I wondered exactly what type of work these men were doing.


James Garfield Gardiner: General pathological
work in connection with plant study. Anything connected with cereal crops that are grown on farms.


George Hugh Castleden: May I ask a further question in connection with the weed survey. Are the results of those surveys available in any publication of the department and could they be made available to farm publications in the west?


James Garfield Gardiner: They are not published in printed form but are in mimeograph form and are distributed on request.


Percy Chapman Black: In connection with the weed seeds, is it true that a tolerance of three per cent, or thereabouts, of weed seeds was allowed in feed grain shipped from the prairie provinces to eastern Canada?


James Garfield Gardiner: There was a tolerance of one per cent until last fall. It wras then found impossible to get grain for feed moved here under that regulation. That was a regulation entered into as a result of cooperation between the provincial governments in the east and the federal government; but last fall the provinces and the federal authorities got together and agreed that a tolerance of three per cent would be allowed in order to permit of grain coming by Fort William without having to be unloaded and cleaned. Labour could not be secured with which to unload and clean the grain sufficiently fast to move it. That slowed up the loading and unloading of cars, and therefore in order to take care of the feed situation here the grain was allowed to come down with a seed allowance of anything up to three per cent. Up to that amount it was allowed to go by. Of course that was widely advertised at the time. The farmers were warned that the grain was coming down with a possible three per cent of weed seeds

in it. They were warned that they should examine this grain and either have it cleaned in the east or clean it themselves after it arrived.


Joseph William Burton: The minister mentioned the shipping of grain to the east and the provincial departments of agriculture. I should like to know how his department and the provincial departments work in so far as weed control is concerned. In that connection I do not want the hon. members from eastern Canada to think that we raise a great deal of weedy crops out west. We raise a considerable amount of grain comparatively free from weeds. As the hon. minister pointed out, as time goes on and land gets older there is an increase in weeds. By different tillage operations, different methods of cultivating, it is possible to combat the weeds to a great extent. In the west we have different climatic conditions in certain years. Those conditions may sometimes cause a farmer to have a weedy crop in a certain year on land that he thought he had fairly well cleaned out of weeds in the preceding years of cultivation. Because of that I wish to warn the minister that while he may think his land is freer from wild oats now than it was in earlier years it is possible that in another year he may be surprised to find that there is a decided increase in wild oats. He may think he had not sowed any, but the wild oats may grow from seed sowed years ago. I have known wild oats to lie in the ground for seven years, land that had been sowed down to grass. When it was ploughed it was found that there were still wild oats there that had not been destroyed during that length of time. On the whole, whenever the farmers in the west have an opportunity to farm their land under favourable weather conditions they try to produce grain with as few weeds as possible. I should like to know how the provincial departments of agriculture work in with the Department of Agriculture here?


James Garfield Gardiner: Of course we do study ways and means of controlling weeds through (he work at our experimental farms and in other ways. As the hon. member for Humboldt knows, the actual control of weeds or the putting down of weeds is under the provincial authorities, and usually they have legislation which calls upon the municipal authorities to assist in the keeping down of weeds. That is done in both eastern and western provinces. There is cooperation in the studying of ways and means of controlling weeds. Sometimes what is looked upon as a weed in one area is looked upon as a useful plant in others, because of the use that is'made of it. All that

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work is carried on in a cooperative way between the two jurisdictions. Most of the control work on the ground is done provincially or municipally.


Joseph William Burton: May I follow up that statement? The Department of Agriculture here acts in an advisory capacity to the other departments in assisting experiments?


James Garfield Gardiner: That is right.


Joseph William Burton: An endeavour is made to prevent overlapping in the work?


James Garfield Gardiner: That is right.


Percy Chapman Black: I should like to ask another question with respect to the tolerance of three per cent of weed seed in feed grain shipped to the eastern provinces. Did I understand that this has the approval of the minister's department and the approval of the departments of agriculture in the eastern provinces where this feed grain is shipped?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes; it was all discussed with them at the time. As a matter of fact, we received a lot of criticism at the time because we did not act until we received the permission of the eastern provinces to act.
' We did not take action until they were consulted. I might say that all this discussion on weed seed really comes under the item of plant products farther down. This item has to do with pathology, the study of diseases, really.


Mr. QUELCH:: While the control of weeds may be largely under the provincial governments, nevertheless would the minister not say that the operation of the wheat acreage reduction measure had brought about an appreciable reduction of weeds in some areas? Would the minister give some information as to the results that have been obtained in that direction during the past year's operation of the wheat acreage reduction? Inspectors are going around inspecting the land. Have they not noticed whether there has been a better control of weeds?


James Garfield Gardiner: I wigh members of the committee would allow me to discuss this matter when we get to that item; otherwise I shall have to discuss it half a dozen times. What we are discussing here really is the matter of studying diseases in connection with plant life and that kind of thing. I would rather discuss the other matter when we get to it. Anything in connection with wheat acreage reduction ought to be discussed under that item.


George Hugh Castleden: But weed surveys are made under this item, are they not?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, weed surveys of a kind are made under this item. That question was all right, and I answered it.


Ernest Edward Perley: The men in the department who are carrying on experiments in connection with the killing of weeds may be doing a good job, but no matter what the department does, the great part of this killing of weeds has to be done by the farmer himself. The minister says that weeds are more prevalent in certain districts. In the district south of the Qu'Appelle valley, just opposite the minister's own farm, in the early days the stink-weed was a blessing in disguise, because the farmers had to get down to real farming to kill it and there is hardly any of it there now. On the other hand, we are being cursed with certain other weeds, though we will handle them in due course. We had a lot of sowthistle; we have mastered that. We had some mustard; we have pretty well mastered that. In some districts, however, certain weeds are allowed to grow in order to overcome the effects of dry weather, and in our country we are now getting Russian thistle. What has been the experience of the department in controlling that weed? In the Wood Mountain district they allow that plant to grow in order to control the dry weather, and in the winter they leave it on the land. In the spring it rolls, and now it is rolling up into our country, where it is becoming a curse with us because we do not need it for the same purpose. Could the minister give us a little information in regard to the control of the Russian thistle?


James Garfield Gardiner: As my hon. friend knows, the Russian thistle was really imported in to this continent. I understand it was brought here from Russia, or at least from some place on the continent of Europe, and planted by someone in the northern United States, I think in Montana or one of the neighbouring states. It is a plant that grows in dry seasons; it is more or less liked by animals if they are short of other feed, and mixed with straw it makes a fodder on which live stock can get by in difficult seasons. Whoever brought in the thistle certainly brought it to an area where it would spread, because it rolls; and in the prairie country, where there is nothing to stop tumbling mustard or a weed of this kind it rolls over the country, seeding itself as it rolls, so that it spreads very rapidly. This plant really was not known in western Canada twenty or twenty-five years ago, but now it covers practically the whole west. It changes the appearance of the prairie country in a dry season; it becomes a sort of a brown colour, which is not at all inviting, but the plant itself is perhaps helpful in a dry year, when nothing

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else is growing. My experience is that it grows very little in a year when you have plenty of moisture; you just see a very small plant at the bottom of the crop, enough to reseed for another year. I assume those who brought it in did so for that very reason, and I do not know that a great deal of effort has been made to control it up to date, even by farmers cultivating the land. They make use of it when the season is such as to make that necessary; they stack it and feed it.


James J. Donnelly: There is no doubt that the Russian thistle came to the United States first, and from there it spread into the southern part of western Canada which I have the honour to represent. Russian thistle grows very thickly in dry weather; it prevents soil drifting and is very helpful in that respect. In wet weather it does not grow to any size at all. It does not interfere with crops; it is not injurious in any way, and we rather favour it because it helps in dry weather and can be used to a certain extent for feed.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: A number of hon. members in the group to my left have been asking that the salaries of certain officials in the Department of Agriculture be increased, and I dare say there are many who deserve such increases. On July 18, 1940, however, the hon. member for Yorkton had this to say as reported at page 1762 of Hansard:
I note at page 73 of the estimates that ten officials of the department are described as agricultural economists. These men are receiving something over $32,900, and despite the fact that this is a war year some of them are receiving increases in salary.
I do not think hon. members to my left are very consistent in what they are trying to do.


George Hugh Castleden: I would point out that 1940 was a year in which the government was curtailing salaries. The matter brought up to-day was in connection with men who have been in the government for long periods, something in the neighbourhood of twenty years, and who have received no increases at all.
Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West); I would not put it in that way; I would say you are one way one day and the other way the next.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Science service-
9.	Agricultural chemistry, $107,572.
George Hugh Castleden: I understand that
some experimental work has been carried on to ascertain the fertilizing value of open hearth slag received from the Dominion Steel
IMr. Gardiner.]
and Coal Company in Sydney, Nova Scotia. Is this experimental work paid for by that company, or does the government carry it on gratis?


James Garfield Gardiner: It is being studied
thoroughly, but as yet there is no final report on it.


George Hugh Castleden: My question was
whether the company is paying anything toward the cost of this work, or if the government is doing it for them.


James Garfield Gardiner: A study is being made under the experimental farms, and I think I shall have to wait until I reach that item in order to give the information.


George Hugh Castleden: There is another matter in connection with animal nutrition. What has been the result of experiments carried on to ascertain the value of the mash which is one of the by-products of the manufacture of alcohol from wheat? Have experiments been carried on in that connection under this item?


James Garfield Gardiner: There has been nothing done in that line up to date.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Science service-
10.	Entomology, $502,247.
Mr. ROSS (Souris):: I understand that this department makes a survey every fall with respect to grasshopper eggs that have been laid in various parts of the country, and also in connection with sawfly infestation. Since it would appear that this may be a dry season in some parts of the west, could we get some information as to what we may expect this year in connection with grasshopper and sawfly infestation, so that the producers may have some guidance as to the sort of crops they should plant. Certain types of crops are more resistant under these circumstances, and perhaps the minister could give us some information along that line.


James Garfield Gardiner: The report we have on grasshoppers in 1943 is this. Grasshoppers were relatively of little importance on the Canadian prairies in 1943. In Manitoba the insects were present in such small numbers that provincial authorities made no provision for the setting up of mixing stations or the preparation and distribution of poison bait. It will be understood by all hon. members, particularly those from the west, that the provincial governments carry on the campaign against grasshoppers. In Saskatchewan baiting was carried out on an extremely restricted scale, and only in two or three localized areas where grasshoppers were abundant. Mixing

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stations were operated in certain areas of Alberta, but the amount of bait used was abnormally small. The grasshopper population has been diminishing on the prairies for a number of years, this condition having been brought about by natural causes, chiefly the weather.
Services carried out in 1943 indicated that although there might be a slight increase in certain sections, these insects are not expected to be of great importance during 1944.
In British Columbia the situation is entirely different. A serious outbreak occurred in the range country, and in some parts of the province grasshoppers were more abundant in 1943 than has been the case for many years. Not only were range grasses destroyed over extensive areas, but gardens were invaded and vegetable crops severely damaged. Services indicate that grasshoppers will be present . in large numbers again in 1944. This is a general report for the western provinces.


Victor Quelch: How far have the experiments gone in connection with creating spring wheat resistant to attacks by sawfly? I understand there is a variety of wheat that has that quality. Can the minister say how much seed is available, and what quality the wheat is?


James Garfield Gardiner: That comes under experimental farms. If we hurry along and get down to that item, we may discuss many of these matters.


Ernest Edward Perley: There is quite a considerable increase in this vote. Would the minister tell us in what province most of this money is spent? I notice there is an increase in travelling expenses amounting to $9,000. Surely that should be explained. In what province is most of the money spent?


James Garfield Gardiner: The increase in travelling is explained in the following manner: $5,600 of this increase is owing to an amount required in lieu of funds made available under the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act in 194344 for carrying on work of prairie laboratories. Then $3,200 is to meet increased requirements for travel connected with wheat-stem sawfly, and the investigation and control of insects and mites, in tough and damp store grain on prairie farms. Then $598 is required to meet an accumulation of minor deficiencies in travel allotment in several of the smaller field laboratories.


Ernest Edward Perley: The minister has mentioned mites. Has there been very much loss from mites? I do not think there is much of that on the farms, is there? It is mostly in the elevators.
100-102J


James Garfield Gardiner: There has not been very much of it anywhere during the last year. It has been pretty well under control, probably on account of the fact that there has not been as much wheat stored in temporary storage during the last year, and weather conditions have been somewhat different from what they were in the preceding year. The matter is kept under survey all the time in order to see that no considerable amount of grain is destroyed by mites.


Ernest Edward Perley: On the farms?


James Garfield Gardiner: There is a certain amount of investigation on the farms, but most of it is in connection with the elevators.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I understood the
minister to say that there has been an increase in grasshopper danger in British Columbia. What steps are being taken to prevent that increase?


James Garfield Gardiner: The work of fighting grasshoppers is done by provincial governments; it is not done by the government here. I am not familiar with what they are doing in British Columbia this year. In Saskatchewan and Alberta, as I read from the reports, there was not much activity required from the provincial governments in 1943. That activity was not carried on by us; it was carried on by the provincial governments. They spread the poison.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I understood the
minister to say there has been an expansion of grasshopper danger in British Columbia.


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes. Our duty is to
warn the province that that is so. We make studies from time to time, and get reports as well. Any studies we make we pass on, I imagine all this is known to the government of British Columbia.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Am I to understand that this immense sum of money is to be expended on this item, and that the federal government is taking no steps to prevent the expansion of that particular disaster to British Columbia? Are they passing the buck to British Columbia?


James Garfield Gardiner: No; we are not passing the buck to British Columbia. If we did the work they would be passing the buck to us. This work has always been done by the provincial governments. We do assist in making surveys, in order that they may know that this movement of grasshoppers is on the way. It starts in the United States, as a rule, in the state of Minnesota, then across to Manitoba, then into Saskatchewan. The next year they will be in Alberta. It has passed over those
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provinces, and this year it is in British Columbia. We make the surveys because, first, it is international, and, second, it is interprovincial. But the matter of fighting grasshoppers is done by the provinces, assisted by the municipalities. They are right on the ground where the fighting is to be done. The provinces have been following the practice of accumulating poisons, and having storage space for those poisons in the areas where infestations are threatened. Then the poison is spread by the farmer, himself, about the fields where his crops are. As a rule it is spread by ploughing a furrow around the field, putting the poison in the furrow; then the grasshoppers are presumed to hop into that furrow, eat some of that poison-and they do not hop out again. Then they may destroy some of the crop in a strip roundabout; poison is spread there, and when they eat the poison they are destroyed. There are many ways of spreading the poison to combat the grasshopper. That is all done by the provincial authorities, or under their direction.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I understand that the federal government contributes to that cost.


James Garfield Gardiner: We do not contribute
at ail to the control. We do research work, but wre do not contribute toward the cost of control.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Does the federal
government contribute to the cost of control in the prairie provinces?


James Garfield Gardiner: No, nowhere.


James Arthur Ross: I should like to ask
another question to clarify this situation. I believe the minister's department have technical men located in every province, and those men make surveys.


James Garfield Gardiner: That is correct.


James Arthur Ross: They make surveys in connection with these parasites, or whatever they are called, and they cooperate with the provincial departments of agriculture. Their advice is available at all times. I just wish to know if that is correct?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes; that is correct.


James Arthur Ross: And the provinces pay all the costs of fighting plagues of this kind. But the minister's staff are always available to give advice, and they cooperate through the provincial governments and the municipalities; is that correct?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes; there is most complete cooperation between provincial authority and ours, and our activity is explained on the

ground that it is international and interprovincial . We make the surveys and we warn the province ahead that an infestation is approaching their way. They get ready for it, and they will fight the grasshopper in that way.


Ernest Edward Perley: There is likely to be an infestation in Saskatchewan, in June, is there not? I understand that the provincial government is taking care of it. There will be a lot of grasshoppers out there then.


James Garfield Gardiner: There may be.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I presume I may ask a question on this item with respect to disease in potatoes from Alberta being brought to British Columbia?


James Garfield Gardiner: That would come under the item for plant protection, the next item.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The hon. member for Dufferin-Simcoe referred to forests and forest products, when another item was under discussion, and I believe the minister told him to bring it up again under the item for entomology. The hon. member is conversant with our forests, and in regard to the budworm infestation I feel the same as he does. I understand that this year about 40,000 square miles are affected. Our forest products are very important to our internal and external trade, and particularly to our tourist trade. In fact agriculture in Canada could not exist if it were not for our forests. The accessible forests of Canada have been destroyed ten per cent during the past six or seven years.
This budworm, or bud-caterpillar, does considerable damage. It really is a caterpillar which eats the buds and destroys the tree. After it is dry, it is very susceptible to forest fires. Could not the dominion government get together with the provinces to work out some scheme to protect our forests? In cutting a fire-break a province can carry it only to its border when it must quit. Unless the other province continues on from that point, part of the work may be wasted. The dominion government should step in to supervise the cutting of fire-breaks and to see that they are kept clean. Proper watersheds should be provided. There was an article in the press of March 13, to the effect that the budworm infested balsam and fir principally, and if fir and balsam ran over forty per cent in an area, the budworm became very prevalent. This work would have to be carried out in cooperation not only with the provincial governments but with the United States because they are having the same trouble with the

Supply-Agriculture
budworm. Can the minister tell us what his department is doing on this? I know it is quite a problem, but it means life or death to the tourist trade and also to the lumber trade of Canada, because I have seen districts where hundreds of acres have been absolutely dried out by this worm.


James Garfield Gardiner: The position in relation to battling the budworm is much the same as in relation to battling grasshoppers. We do the research and make surveys and give out advice to those who have the responsibility of caring for the resources of their province. The fact that there is an international aspect to the surveys and to the information given out makes it necessary that that particular end of the work should be done by this department. I have in my hand a memorandum on spruce budworm outbreaks which I think will give the committee full information.
The present spruce budworm outbreak in Ontario covers a very large area of forest lands, including some forty-five thousand square miles. About 18,000,000 cords of balsam fir and white spruce have been killed or injured beyond hope of recovery. There is no artificial method of control for a forest insect outbreak of this kind that can be applied over such a great area of forest lands. Aeroplane dusting with poisoned dusts was studied carefully by this department during the former spruce budworm outbreak some twenty years ago. The technique of application was perfected, but with the insecticides available at that time only partial control of the spruce budworm could be obtained, although other defoliating forest insects were readily destroyed. New and more effective insecticides are now available, and tests with them will be carried out next summer in Ontario forests. The application of insecticides from aeroplanes may eventually be utilized for the control of defoliating forest insects on areas of specially valuable timber, but the high cost of the operation will prevent its use over very large areas of pulpwood lands.
During the former spruce budworm outbreak, forest entomologists of this department made an intensive study of all methods of controlling the insect that seemed possible of application, and their report clearly stated that, although an outbreak by the spruce budworm extending over enormous areas could not be controlled by artificial means, it should be possible so to manage a pulpwood forest that in the future spruce budworm outbreaks would not develop therein. The recommendation in brief was that pulpwood lands should be managed so that over-mature stands of balsam fir would be utilized as rapidly as possible, and the balsam fir cut thereafter on a short rotation,
leaving only rapidly growing stands on the ground, and also that the reproduction of spruce and mixed stands should be encouraged by every practicable means.
That recommendation still stands, and it is maintained by our entomologists that, if destructive outbreaks of this insect are to be avoided in the pulpwood forests of eastern Canada in the future, extensive areas of overmature balsam fir must not be permitted to accumulate. Intensive studies of the present outbreak are in progress, and our forest entomologists are prepared to assist the companies in carrying out recommendations for salvage, control, and prevention, whenever and wherever such assistance may be required.
Unfortunately, economic conditions were such that the recommendations of our entomologists were not followed in our pulpwood forests, and the present outbreak in northwestern Ontario is duplicating the former great outbreak that spread through Quebec and the maritime provinces. There is now some evidence that the operators of large areas of our pulpwood forests are becoming interested in the recommendations of the entomologists and have expressed their willingness to cooperate. It is to be hoped that management plans along the lines that are recommended will soon be put into operation. A definite effort is being made to join forces with the United States forest authorities in studying this problem, and an international committee of experts has been organized for this purpose.
The problem of appropriate forest management for the prevention of future outbreaks has many ramifications extending into fields of activity other than that of forest entomology, such as forestry and industrial chemistry. Limitations imposed by war-time conditions are unavoidable in the execution of a full programme of action. This situation can be dealt with more completely in our plans for post-war rehabilitation, but preliminary management plans should be prepared and applied without delay on several large areas in territory as yet unaffected by the present outbreak. In other words, preventive activities ought to be carried on in areas that are not yet infested.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I am glad the minister mentioned post-war work because fire-breaks would be one thing that could be done after the war. It would take a great number of men to carry on that work.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: The statement just read by the minister demonstrates the importance of this work, and a vote of half a million dollars is quite small when we consider the large investments at stake. The minister's report states that the total estimation of monetary loss for Saskatchewan consisted of 811,230,000
Supply-Agriculture

owing to wheat-stem sawfly, SI ,490,000 to cutworms, $10,140,000 to wireworms and $3,865,000 to grasshoppers. If this branch could do effective work in reducing this very large loss I am sure the appropriation would be very well spent. I want to repeat what I said regarding the botany and plant pathology staffs. In the public accounts there are fifty-nine listed in that branch who are receiving .$2,400 or over. Only one receives over $5,00Q; four, over $4,000; four, more than $3,500, and eighteen are right down in the cellar, getting $2,400. Apparently there is a small ceiling at the top. How many university graduates are included in the fifty-nine? How many have their master's degree; how many have a Ph.D., and how many Ph.D.'s are receiving $3,000 or less.


James Garfield Gardiner: I shall have that information when my estimates come up again.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I wish to register my protest through you, Mr. Chairman, to the minister against agriculture estimates being brought up on a Friday night when members representing Ontario rural constituencies are not present. Agriculture is the most important industry we have in Canada, and there are many agricultural matters that concern my riding as well as Ontario ridings that I wish to bring up; but I ask you, Mr. Chairman, what possible support I could get to-night in the present house from Ontario members in matters that particularly concern my riding? I realize that the hon. member for Fraser Valley is a very minor member; but I wish to quote from the Vancouver Daily Province of November 17, 1943, what a man who is fairly well known both in agriculture and in other circles has to say. I refer to ex-President Hoover of the United States. Here is the heading on the article, "Hoover urges farm control". The article goes on to quote former President Herbert Hoover as follows:
The lack of cooperation and the conflict between government bureaus are now limiting and will even reduce, rather than increase, our animal products.
The reason why I bring this up is that I think it is very unfair that the agriculture estimates should be brought up on Friday night when there are no members present in the house representing agricultural districts other than members from the west.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Here is an Ontario member.


George Alexander Cruickshank: How many are here from Ontario? I feel bitterly about this practice, and I wish to register my protest against it. The minister has given his explanation of this item before the committee, item 10, but I would ask him what steps are being taken in

connection with the eradication of weeds, particularly couch-grass, which particularly affects my riding.


James Garfield Gardiner: The control of couch-grass is directed by the provincial authorities in all the provinces.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: At Belleville there is a parasite laboratory. Would the minister tell us how the extra staff is taken on in the spring or early summer? I believe there is quite a large staff taken on there at that time. AVho has the say as to who comes on?


James Garfield Gardiner: As a rule, in ordinary times the extra staff is taken on by the civil service commission. At present they are taken on by national selective service.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Do they have to have a knowledge of entomology or parasite control or anything like that?


James Garfield Gardiner: An intimate knowledge of entomology is not required for the summer work.


George Hugh Castleden: What is being done with regard to making serums and other treatments available in the western provinces to combat encephalomyelitis, and has the disease been on the increase in 1943 as compared with 1942?


James Garfield Gardiner: We discussed that the other night under animal and poultry pathology. We are on entomology at present.


George Hugh Castleden: According to the minister's report, at page 57, an officer from Kamloops laboratory was brought to Saskatchewan to organize a survey of encephalomyelitis is that province. I wonder what the results of the survey have been'.


James Garfield Gardiner: There was very little of the disease last year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Science service-
11.	Plant protection, $288,740.
James Lester Douglas: Would the minister care to say something about the work of this branch?


James Garfield Gardiner: The purpose of this vote is (1) for the inspection and treatment if required of importations and exports of plants and plant products for insect pests and plant diseases in accordance with the Destructive Insect and Pest Act and regulations thereunder; in cooperation with the British Ministry of Food, the inspection of ships at maritime ports for insect infestations and the supervision of treatment, when required, prior to loading of food and plant products; in

Supply-Agriculture
cooperation with the division of entomology, the inspection of grain elevators, warehouses, dehydration plants, and grain storage ships in the great lakes ports, for insect pests, and the supervision of treatment when necessary:
(2)	to maintain essential seed supplies, the inspection in the field, in storage, and at shipping point of potatoes entered for certification as seed potatoes; in cooperation with the Department of Trade and Commerce and with the marketing service, Department of Agriculture, the promotion of the export trade in seed potatoes; potato tuber indexing in greenhouses during winter to assist growers in the development of disease-free seed potato stock;
(3)	the issuance of certificates of health for plants and plant products to meet requirements of importing countries; (4) the maintenance of quarantines under the Destructive Insect and Pest Act; (5) the eradication or control of foreign insects and plant diseases established in Canada, including the Japanese beetle.


Joseph William Burton: Why is there a reduction in this vote this year?


James Garfield Gardiner: There is a decrease of $4,395 for permanent employees and an increase of $5,120 for temporary employees, which gives a balance of increase of $725. On wages there is a decrease of $1,000; cost of living bonus and other pay list items, increase, $2,372; buildings and lands, decrease, $9,700; equipment, increase, $2,160; miscellaneous supplies, war risk insurance, increase, $110; printing and stationery, increase, $1,000; supplies and materials, increase, $282; telephones, telegrams and postage, increase $200; travelling expenses, increase, $2,000; making total decreases of $10,700 and total increases of $8,849, or a net decrease of $1,851.


James Alexander Marshall: The previous year the vote was $290,591, and the money actually expended was $276,170.77. The amount which actually was not used was $12,420. Is the minister in a position to tell the committee how much of this $290,591 was actually used?


James Garfield Gardiner: We are not yet to the end of the financial year for which the $290,000 was provided. I have not, therefore, the final expenditures on that.


James Alexander Marshall: Has the minister got them up to the present?


James Garfield Gardiner: We have not them with us. As a matter of fact, we are not able to give the final figures even at the end of the financial year, because there is a thirty-day period allowed before we clean up with those accounts, and then, after that, the accounting has to be done, so that it would be some months before we could give that information.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I notice that this branch made some investigation of grain storage and that they work in conjunction with the branch responsible for entomology. What has the department's experience been with respect to mites? I know there has been some trouble with mites in farmers' granaries, especially during the damp season. Has there been any loss on account of mites in the terminal elevators or in any of the grain ships, or is it confined entirely to grain stored on farms?


James Garfield Gardiner: I have here two circulars: they are rather long to read, but I just call hon. members' attention to them. This one is called, "Grain Storage Problems on Farms in Western Canada", by H. E. Gray, division of entomology, Department of Agriculture, Ottawa, and B. M. Smallman, board of grain commissioners, Winnipeg, Manitoba. This is put out by the department, and if hon. members get it and read it they will have the final information on the subject. Generally speaking, there has not been very much destruction of grain by mites during the year we have just come through. There was considerable destruction of grain during the previous year, but I have not the figures as to the number of bushels involved or anything of that kind. Most of the difficulty a year ago was in these special storages which were put up beside elevators at Fort William. The difficulties on the farm have not been so widespread.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: The minister said that there had been some loss at Fort William. Does he mean in the terminal elevators?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, there was, in the year before. There have been some slight losses this year, but not very much loss, in the terminal elevators.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I wondered whether the loss the year before was mainly because of poor storage or whether it was also prevalent in places where there was good storage. Would that be because damp wheat or tough wheat was put in, or is there some other explanation?


James Garfield Gardiner: Most of the trouble was in the annexes. In elevators, of course, when you have any trouble you can move the grain by running it out of one bin into another, but in the annexes that is almost impossible, and there were losses in some of them.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: The minister mentioned pamphlets. Every once in a while one comes across, almost by accident, some good pamphlet which has been put out by the
Supply-Agriculture

department. Would it be possible to have a copy of every pamphlet which comes out sent to each member, particularly to members for rural constituencies? If they found some pamphlet which they thought was of particular interest to their constituents they could ask the department to send out some more, or notify the agricultural organizations within their constituencies of the existence of this particular pamphlet and suggest that application be made to the department for a copy.


Grote Stirling: We get an index every year.


James Garfield Gardiner: I will ask the officials to see that a copy is sent to every hon. member. It is a practice to send them out, and I think hon. members are on these lists.


Grote Stirling: The index is sent to them every year. We can watch them in that way.


James Garfield Gardiner: As the hon. member for Yale points out, the index is sent out every year, and a member can get any particular publication that he wants. Some pamphlets are sent direct to members.


Joseph William Burton: I understood the minister to say there was considerable destruction of grain. Was there actually a great amount of grain destroyed, or was it just that much of it was infested with mites?


James Garfield Gardiner: It was infested and had to be treated. When one takes the whole crop of 560,000,000 bushels two years ago it cannot be said that a very large proportion was destroyed by mites.


Ernest Edward Perley: It was up to the elevators. The grain was in their annexes and they had to turn it over, sometimes taking it out of the annexes and putting it in the elevators and then putting it back.


James Garfield Gardiner: There were warnings
sent out. For instance, "Canada, Department of Agriculture," signed "Services, Division of Entomology: Protect Farm Stored Grain." This was sent out throughout the country, posted up, and mailed to individuals, giving warnings in connection with these matters. The farmers look after their own bins to a considerable extent.


Joseph William Burton: I should like to ask about a different kind of mite which may not be so small. Would the warble-fly menace come under this discussion? What has the department done to assist in trying to stamp out this pest, which is causing a considerable amount of damage to hides where we have animals on the farms?
 (Weybum)


James Garfield Gardiner: It really comes under
the item we just passed, "entomology." But a very active campaign has been carried on in cooperation with the provincial departments of agriculture in order to fight the warble.


Joseph William Burton: The minister's department, I assume, works in cooperation with the provincial departments?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes.


Victor Quelch: Can the minister say if
there will be any difficulty in obtaining supplies of arsenic in the event of a serious outbreak of grasshoppers? A year or two ago there was considerable difficulty in this matter in some municipalities.


James Garfield Gardiner: It is not thought that
there will be any difficulty in providing for any outbreaks which are anticipated in the coming year.


William Henry Golding: Shall the item carry?


George Alexander Cruickshank: No.


Grote Stirling: It is not carried, and it is eleven o'clock.
Item stands.
Progress reported.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

[Stage Direction]
Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre)': On Monday we shall take up first of all the resolution on the war appropriation and the estimates of the Minister of Munitions and Supply, and we may call two items in, order of supply during the day. If we do call them, they are on the Department of the Secretary of State and civil estimates of munitions and supply. Possibly we may have to discuss further the civil estimates of agriculture, and the house must be prepared to take into consideration at any time Mr. Speaker's report on standing orders.
Grote Stirling: May I ask what the minister means by saying that we might have to discuss two further items of munitions and supply?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It is the intention to call two new items.


Grote Stirling: Apart from that, we are going into committee on war appropriations and take up munitions and supply?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is correct.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.

Exchequer Court Act
Monday, March 20, 1944