1944-03-13

PRIVILEGE-MR. LEADER   REFERENCE TO ARTICLE IN WINNIPEG &quot;FREE PRESS&quot; OF MARCH 10, 1944

Mr. HARRY LEADER (Portage la Prairie):: Mr. Speaker, I rise to a question of privilege. A speech which I made in the house a few weeks ago was discussed in the Manitoba legislature and a report was published in the Winnipeg Free Press in its Friday's issue, which casts reflections on myself. I should like to read the paragraph in question:
"The record should be kept straight in fairness to all members of the medical profession," Mr. McLenaghen declared, after reading some correspondence on the matter.
The Hon. J. 0. McLenaghen, Attorney General of the province of Manitoba, was making the statement as Minister of Health. The report goes on:
"When a layman-
Meaning myself.
-presumes to make statements concerning a matter of scientific research, of which he has no knowledge, he is assuming a great onus," Mr. McLenaghen told the house.
"A great onus rests on a public man, who makes statements and blazons them to the world. Irreparable harm can be done unless all the facts are known. Such statements could be damaging unless based on facts, creating in the minds of cancer sufferers falsehoods based on scientific experiments which have not stood the test of time," declared Mr. McLenaghen.
I just wish to say, Mr. Speaker, that the remarks which I made in the house on February 7 last were based on facts substantiated by medical authority, and the reflection which I made upon medical gentlemen in Winnipeg was based on facts I had from men who should know. I had no other object in view as a cancer patient but to give something to the world that might help others as Doctor Davidson has helped me.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement to the house with respect to amendments to the wartime wages control order, P.C. 9384, of December 9, 1943.

On February 10, I informed hon. members that it was the intention of the government, after receiving representations from the leading labour organizations, and considering all other representations, to make amendments to the wartime wages control order, (P.C. 9384 of December 9, 1943). I now table a copy of order in council P.C. 1727 which embodies the amendments. It was enacted today.
The amendments seek to meet the criticisms of the original order, as far as is consistent with the maintenance of the government's policy of preventing inflation.
Under the order as amended, the provision for enlarging the national war labour board has been removed and provision is once more made for a three-man board, with one member representative of the point of view of labour and one of the point of view of employers.
The national war labour board will retain the right to review and revise decisions of the nine regional war labour boards in order to secure uniformity and consistent administration across Canada. However, the national board shall not vary decisions of a regional board without giving notice to interested parties who, before changes are made, will have the right to make representations to the board.
An amendment revokes the provision placing the onus of proof of compliance with the regulations, upon the employer or employee charged with an offence under the order.
The national and regional war labour boards retain authority to authorize wage increases in cases where special circumstances exist. The limitation in the original order, which permitted wage increases only within the ability of the employer to pay without price increases, has been modified. Under the amended order, a greater latitude will be permitted for adjustment of certain wage rates.
I would not be frank with hon. members or with labour if I did not say that in making, these amendments to the order, the government recognizes the risks ^involved in relation to the whole stabilization policy.
No part of the community has more to gain from continuing success in the battle against inflation than labour, or more to lose by failure to prevent inflation. The government realizes that the fight against inflation can be won only if all groups in the community are prepared to give their active support and cooperation to the price ceiling policy.
If the government's policy of price stabilization is to be effectively maintained, it is clear that employers and labour organizations must

Wartime Labour Regulations
cooperate in supporting this policy by limiting applications for wage increases to what should be a relatively small number of cases where special circumstances apply.
The government is not prepared to adopt a policy of paying subsidies to employers to meet the higher costs resulting from increased wage rates. An attempt to follow this course would soon break down because of the administrative difficulties involved. Similarly, the granting of price increases to offset increased Wage rates, if the cases involved were to reach any considerable number, would confront the wartime prices and trade board with an impossible task, and would destroy the price ceiling.
In December last, when I announced the principles underlying the wartime wages control order, I said:
The policy of the government is that all practical measures will be taken to keep the cost of living at present levels.
I went on to say:
If the cost of living rises more than three per cent and remains at that level for two consecutive months, the government will review the whole programme of price control and wage control and take appropriate action.
The government will endeavour to keep the cost of living from rising more than the three per cent mentioned. We shall stand by the pledge that if the cost of living exceeds the level of October, 1943, by more than three per cent and remains at such higher figure for two consecutive months, the government will review the whole programme. I must emphasize, however, that if, under the amended order, the cases of wage adjustments which result in increases in the cost of goods and services should prove to be too numerous, the margin of three per cent would soon be exhausted. The government would then be faced with the unfortunate task of having to review, and to consider the practicability of continuing, the whole stabilization policy.
Let me repeat: the government is determined to do all it can to hold down the cost of living, and to safeguard the public against an inflationary rise in prices. In this it cannot, however, succeed without the support of every group in the community.
[Laterl ;
On the orders of the day:


Mr. A. W. NEILL (Comox-Albemi):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Prime Minister in connection with the orders in council he has tabled, either substituting for
or amending the wage control orders. I would ask that they be printed and made available to members in quantity. I have over three thousand letters concerning the matter, and while I do not propose to answer them all, they are entitled to some consideration. I suggest further thalt it would help if he would have his remarks to-day on the subject of these orders in council printed separately, because that would explain the situation fully.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I imagine the Minister of Labour has already anticipated my hon. friend's request, and is having copies of the order in council printed. He will be prepared to supply hon. members with such copies as they may wish to have.


Alan Webster Neill: And the Prime Minister's
remarks?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Perhaps the
minister would do me the honour of including my remarks too.


Alan Webster Neill: Your remarks too?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have just asked if he would include the statement I have made, and I understand he will.



WARTIME LABOUR REGULATION, P.C. 1003

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. G. DIEFENBAKER (Lake Centre):: I should like ito ask a question of the Minister of Labour in regard to war-time labour regulation P.C. 1003. Does this proposal apply to professional engineers, mining engineers, architects or professional chemists? If it does, I would ask if it is the intention of the government 'to withdraw them from its application.


Hon. HUMPHREY MITCHELL (Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, while I should not like to anticipate the functions of the wartime labour relations board, set up under the authority of the order in council, and while I should not like to interpret those functions, I would say to my hon. friend that this is still a free country-


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: Quite so.


Humphrey Mitchell: And if hon. members of this House of Commons-


Mr. HOMUTH:: Don't be itoo sure of that, now.


Humphrey Mitchell: If hon. members in
their judgment wish to form a trade union, I guess they could apply to the wartime labour relations board, as a trade union, to settle their differences.


John George Diefenbaker: Is that the best answer I can get?
Alcoholic Beverages



ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have another statement, Mr. Speaker, which I should like to make to the house. It has to do with restrictions upon the sale of beer.
On December 16, 1942, the government, by an order in council known as the wartime alcoholic beverages order, limited the quantity of spirits, wine and beer to be released for sale in the period from November 1, 1942, to October 31, 1943, to 70, 80 and 90 per cent respectively of the quantity released in the previous twelve months. The period of this limitation was subsequently extended for the duration of the war.
The restrictions upon the quantity of alcoholic beverages to be released for sale, were in accordance with the government's policy, to effect, if possible, a total war effort. They were in response to an informed public opinion, and to a widespread public demand for some measure of restriction. It had become evident throughout 1942, and even earlier, that increased production and excessive consumption of alcoholic beverages at a time of war could not but impair the effectiveness of the country's war effort.
In the first three years of war, the consumption of alcoholic beverages had increased enormously. Over the same period, restrictions had been increasingly imposed upon the use of many commodities, including not a few of the necessities of life. Restrictions had also been placed upon the use of gasoline and upon travel abroad as well as at home. Moreover, the country, by the close of 1942, had reached practically the peak of shortages both of man-power and materials. The government was making every effort to divert men and resources from non-essential activities of all kinds. This policy had already affected the production of alcoholic beverages. The entire distilling capacity of the country had been converted to the manufacture of industrial alcohol for war purposes. The production of wine had been limited by the rationing of sugar. The production of beer had been restricted by a limitation in the supply of malt.
The wartime alcoholic beverages order did not, therefore, actually greatly increase the restrictions on the supply of alcoholic beverages. The basic limitation was, in fact, the result of war-time demands for man-power and materials for essential war needs. The restrictions did provide for an orderly and 
equitable distribution of the available supplies among the several provinces in exact proportion to the quantities released for sale in each province in the preceding year.
I wish to emphasize the fact that, with respect to alcoholic beverages, the federal limitations apply only to the quantities released for sale to each of the provinces. The retail sale and distribution of alcoholic beverages is left entirely to the provincial authorities.
It was clear from the outset that the war-time alcoholic beverages order, like other war-time restrictions would be effective only if the necessary cooperation and support was forthcoming on the part of the several provinces of the dominion. It was for this reason that at the time the order was enacted, I took care to explain in a public address the relations of the dominion and provincial governments with respect to the production and sale of alcoholic beverages, and to make a special appeal to the provinces to lend their cooperation. This I did in the following words:
The federal government has to do with their (i.e. alcoholic beverages) production and importation; the provincial governments with their sale and distribution. In other words, while the dominion government is in a position to control the quantities of spirits, wine and beer to be released for consumption, the regulation of the retail sales of alcoholic beverages is a matter which is determined by each province according to its judgment. . . .
An examination of existing war-time needs now makes it necessary for the federal government, in addition to the measures I have announced, to appeal to the provinces for their cooperation in further restricting the sale of alcoholic beverages.
In the case of most of the provinces there has been a gratifying effort to cooperate. There has been notwithstanding, much misrepresentation throughout the dominion of the government's purpose, and, as time has gone on less and less has been said about the reasons for and the limited scope of the restrictions themselves.
Within the past few days a situation has arisen in relation to two of the provinces which is so far removed from cooperation on the part of their governments that it is certain to give -rise to an issue between the federal -and provincial authorities. If not promptly prevented, any such issue cannot fail to create continuous friction between some of the provincial governments and the federal government, and antagonisms between one section of the country and another.
In Ontario, on the authority of the liquor control board, -notices have been posted in establishments where alcoholic beverages are sold, which read as follows:

Alcoholic Beverages
Notice: The quantity of alcoholic beverages saleable at this sales outlet is restricted by reason of order in council No. 11374 passed by the federal government Dec. 16, 1942.-This notice is posted on authority of the Liquor Control Board of Ontario.
There is no indication in these notices that the action of the federal government was a war measure, enacted to increase the country's total war effort. No account is taken or mention made of the fact that the production and consumption of alcoholic beverages in 1942 had reached the highest level in Canada's history. Instead, the poster is designed to have it appear that, in the opinion of the government of Ontario, the action of the federal government is arbitrary, unfair and unnecessary.
Since the enactment of the dominion wartime alcoholic beverages order, there has during the year been released for sale in each province of Canada, ninety per cent of the beer which was released for sale in the twelve months ended October 31, 1942. Over the whole country, this amount was some sixty per cent in excess of that which had been released for sale in the year prior to the outbreak of war. To-day the beverage rooms of Ontario, where the notices of the Ontario Liquor Control Board are posted, are not being allocated 90 per cent by the board. Instead, they are being allotted only 75 per cent. It is true that the quantity saleable in the province has been restricted by the dominion order in- council,, but it was not restricted by 25 per cent. That restriction on the beverage rooms was imposed by the liquor control board of Ontario.
The board's action has the approval of the government of Ontario. It was defended by the Attorney General of Ontario in the Ontario legislature on the 8th of this month. The posting of the notices certainly misrepresents the action of the federal government. It is clearly an attempt to have the federal government held responsible for the whole twenty-five per cent reduction.
On the day before (March 7), in the Alberta legislature, the provincial treasurer is reported to have stated that "some of the eastern provinces were tipped off" to the wartime alcoholic beverages order of 1942, and that the dominion government "fixed the base year to give the greatest advantage to Quebec".
The Minister of National Revenue has completely denied this statement in the following words:	[DOT]
Such a statement is entirely without foundation and untrue and not one that would normally be expected to be made by a responsible minister of the crown.
While Mr. Low complains of the quota allowed to his province, it might be pointed 100-88
out that in the year ending October 31, 1943, the province of Alberta failed to take up its full allotment, and was short 9,945-6 proof gallons of spirits to which the province was entitled.
If effect is to be given its war-time policies, the federal government must necessarily rely upon the cooperation of the provincial governments. This, as I have pointed out, is particularly true of war-time restrictions upon the supply of alcoholic beverages. Despite the fact that the supply is affected by shortages of essential materials and man-power, and the further fact that the federal restriction is merely a restriction upon the quantities released to each province, the public has been increasingly led to believe that the supply available for consumption, and any difficulties of distribution, are due solely to action on the part of the federal government.
In the case of spirits and wine, the reasons for the limitation of supplies are, I believe, generally understood and generally accepted. The misrepresentations and the controversies which have arisen have to do largely with the restriction upon the supply of beer.
In the case of beer, the supply is limited by shortages of malt, of bottles, of cartons and of man-power, which are likely to continue as long as the war lasts. Apart altogether from *the 10 per cent reduction imposed by the wartime alcoholic beverages order, the shortages of themselves would prevent any very considerable increase in supply. No right thinking person would advocate the diversion of scarce materials or man-power from any essential war-time or civilian activity to the production of beer.
At this time of war, it is especially true that a first duty of the federal government is to see that no differences which can be prevented are allowed to interfere with the cooperation and understanding so necessary between the federal and provincial governments. In the interests of the war effort, sources of public misunderstanding and friction, where they exist, should be removed in so far as that may be possible.
The provinces, under their power to regulate the distribution and sale of beer can effectively limit the amount to be distributed1 and sold, and this quite apart from any federal restriction as to the amount to be released for sale. Where it is clear that causes other than federal action are restricting the supply of beer, maintenance by the federal authorities, of the 10 per cent reduction upon the 1942 output of this single commodity is not sufficiently important to the war effort to justify the risk of continuous misunderstanding and friction between the fed-

Alcoholic Beverages

eral and provincial governments and of antagonisms between provinces. In these circumstances, it is obviously preferable that the distribution and sale of such supply of beer as there may be, should be left to the exclusive control of the provinces themselves.
The government has therefore decided to remove the restriction of ten per cent upon the supply of beer which may be released for sale to the provinces, and the wartime alcoholic beverages order has to-day, been amended accordingly.	_
In leaving to the provinces the exclusive responsibility for the amount of beer to be distributed and sold, the federal government is not departing from its view that a restriction of the production and consumption of alcoholic beverages is necessary to a total war effort. In all particulars, except the one mentioned, the wartime alcoholic beverages order will remain as it is.
As respects the retail distribution and sale of beer, each province is now freed from any federal restriction as to quantity of beer to be released for sale within its borders. The provinces will have the sole responsibility to make whatever arrangements each considers necessary and desirable to ensure an equitable distribution and to prevent any excesses.
Mr. Speaker, I now table copies of the order in council which was passed to-day.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: I rise to a point of order, Mr. Speaker, and also to ask you a question for information. Is the statement just made by the Prime Minister debatable at this time?


Mr. SPEAKER:: No.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Then I want to register my regret at the fact that the Prime Minister has made a right-about-face on a matter that is of concern to the whole Dominion of Canada without giving us an opportunity to debate it,


Mr. BLACKMORE:: Mr. Speaker, in justice to the province of Alberta-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


John Horne Blackmore: May I be allowed to say, Mr. Speaker, that the Prime Minister's remarks do not represent the whole of the truth.



NATIONAL HEALTH


Hon. J. L. RALSTON (Minister of National Defence):: I desire to lay on the table the report on the national health survey conducted by the Canadian Medical Procurement and

Assignment Board. Since the report is, I think, of special importance and is very voluminous, I wish to make a comment or two upon it.
The board was established on the 20th July, 1942, by P.C. 6185, and later its activities were extended to the dental and nursing services by P.C. 10360 of 17th November, 1942, and P.C. 10394 of 1st December, 1942. The board consisted of five members of the Canadian Medical Advisory Committee (appointed by the Canadian Medical Association), the Director of Medical Services of the Department of Pensions and National Health, the Medical Director of National War Services, a representative of the Director of National Selective Service and the heads of the three medical services of navy, army and air and the directors of dental services. Among the functions of the board were:
(a)	to make a survey and allocate as a result of information obtained medical officers in the proper proportions for appointment to the three branches of the armed forces of Canada;
(b)	to consider carefully in relation to the available supply of physicians for appointment to the armed forces, the requirements of civilian institutions, public health departments, medical schools, war industries and communities in order that there shall be no impairment of essential public health services;
(c)	to undertake the responsibility for investigating conditions at first hand regarding civilian needs and the possibility of making such arrangements as are possible and expedient where there is an apparent conflict between military and civilian needs.
The board has been functioning for considerably over a year and a half. Under its auspices a complete study of the entire health services of Canada has been made, involving physicians, dentists, nurses, public health, medical research and industry. Every community in Canada has been investigated. To do this work, voluntary assistance was procured from all the provincial medical societies, the Canadian Dental Association, the Canadian Nurses Association, the Canadian Hospital Council, the deans of the nine medical schools, the Dominion Council of Health and the divisional advisory committees of the Canadian medical procurement and assignment board.
Each individual group carried out a survey of its special field. Twelve medical officers were loaned from the three armed services to act as field secretaries to these groups. In addition, the board had the active cooperation of the provincial departments of public health, the Department of Pensions and National

National Health
Health, the Department of Labour, the Department of National War Services and the three branches of the armed services.
These groups have been equally industrious in studying the needs of civilians as well as of the armed forces for medical man-power and woman-power. As a result of this study they have put into practical form a series of reports which give in detail a picture of the situation in Canada from the Atlantic to the Pacific. And at the same time they have made that survey constructive in a series of practical recommendations respecting every feature of their work.
The reports consist of nine parts, each in a different volume and on a different subject. The tenth volume is a resume of recommendations. Each of the nine subjects was dealt with by a separate group and these reports were put together by the board at Ottawa.
Part 1-Introduction.
Part 2-Civilian Medical	Man-power-
Medical Advisory Committees.
Part 3-Medical Schools-Association of Medical Colleges of Canada.
Part 4-Public Health-Dr. J. J. Heagerty.
Part 5-Hospital Personnel and Facilities- Dr. Harvey Agnew.
Part 6-Industrial Medicine-Dr. J. G. Cunningham.
Part 7-War Medical Man-power-Dr. A. E. Archer.
Part 8-Nurses-Miss K. W. Ellis.
Part 9-Dental Services-Dr. D. W. Gul-lett.
Part 10-Recommendations.
These ten volumes which I am tabling are necessarily voluminous. They contain about
350,000	words in all. Along with these reports I am tabling a summary prepared by the general secretary which I hope may be of assistance to the members of the house, the press, and the public. As the secretary indicates, the report is so detailed in its factual findings that really to summarize it would be an almost impossible task. And the summary therefore does not purport to be exhaustive; it simply brings attention to some of the salient points in the actual report.
Let me say that the report is not by any means in all respects complimentary. And I would ask that members take the trouble and time if they can possibly do so to read the report itself and not limit themselves to the summary alone.
One result of this reajly monumental effort was that every community, rural and urban, was surveyed in order to determine the present degree of medical care existing there. This 100-88J
revealed among other things details regarding the physicians, including numbers, location, nature of their work, population they are serving, availability for both civilian and military service, and existing surpluses and deficiencies.
Records have been established and a card index system set up making available for permanent use detailed information of Canada's civilian medical man-power such as has never been assembled before. These records are being kept up to date by the board.
For example, they show that in March, 1943, Canada's medical population totalled 12,235. Of this number 3,006 or about one-quarter, were in the armed forces. Of the remaining 9,229 physicians, 8,614 were practising, while 615 were retired. (As of March 1, 1944, there were 3,5S9 doctors in military service.)
With reference to medical schools:	The
report reveals that although the staffs of full time instructors at such schools have declined by 18-5 per cent since 1939; nevertheless, an accelerated curriculum which has practically abolished holidays, has resulted in a great increase in the number of graduates.
In pre-war years these schools graduated an average of 491 students annually. From 1940 to 1944, this average has been stepped up to 630, an increase of nearly 30 per cent.
The report also shows the distribution of hospitals and devotes considerable attention to the post-war hospitalization needs of Canada.
This section of the report has particular reference to the matter of how any proposed health insurance plan might affect the hospital problem.
An examination of the report further discloses the type of health supervision which is being provided in industries and the need for an extension of such health facilities.
An interesting fact revealed by the report is that Canada has 52,4S3 registered nurses. Of these, more than half are not. engaged in nursing, nearly all of them being housewives. Of the balance of 27,574, 8,306 have expressed a willingness to enlist, but there is a waiting list of 3,741 nurses vrho are not at present needed by the armed services.
I think it can be confidently said that no other country in the world has had the benefit of a more complete or exhaustive study of its national health situation. It is of inestimable value not only now but for the future. Canada is greatly indebted to all the organizations and individuals I have mentioned, who have voluntarily given of their time and energy to carry out this most important undertaking.

National Health
And to all those who have participated in this major piece of useful national service, I wish to express sincere appreciation. The wealth of assistance has been contributed by hundreds, and probably thousands, of persons in the production of these reports. Rather than try to enumerate them in any number, I shall mention only one man, and his work can be said to be representative of the conscientious industry, the ample capacity, and the high devotion which has characterized the labour of all who have taken part. I refer to Doctor T. C. Routley, who has borne with outstanding ability the double load of secretary of the Canadian Medical association and general secretary of the Canadian medical procurement and assignment board.
The benefit of the effort of all these men and women will reach far beyond the realm of the armed forces to the wider field of -maintaining and improving the health of citizens throughout this Dominion. It goes without saying that health is fundamental and indeed indispensable to our prosperity as individuals and to our progress as a nation. I have made arrangements to have the report and the summary printed so that copies may be available to members of the house.


Mr. ADAMSON:: May I ask the minister a question? Does the report cover mental hygiene as well?


James Layton Ralston: I cannot tell my hon. friend what part of the report covers that subject, but it is covered.


James Layton Ralston: Mr. Speaker, with unanimous consent of the house I would ask that we revert to the orders of the day, so that I may place on Hansard an answer to a question asked by the hon. member for Parkdale on Thursday, March 9. This question has to do with the Canadian medical procurement and assignment board, to which I referred this afternoon.


Thomas Vien: By unanimous consent we revert to orders of the day.


James Layton Ralston: The question asked by the hon. member was with respect to the supplying of physicians from the armed forces to communities in certain special cases. I wish to say that the matter has been under intensive consideration by the Canadian medical procurement and assignment board and by the three services, the Department of

Pensions and National Health and the national selective service branch of the Department of Labour.
As a result of this examination, on March 2 the Canadian medical procurement and assignment board wrote to the premier of ' each province, with certain suggestions for a plan to help meet civilian requirements for medical personnel in communities where requirements were specially urgent. For the reason that the matter was one which involved consultation and agreement with the provinces, it was not intended that any public announcement should be made until the provinces had had an opportunity to examine the plan.
However, some publicity has already been given and, because of this and to prevent -misconceptions regarding what is being worked out, I consider it necessary to make a brief statement now:
On account of the requirements for medical personnel in connection with war activities, there was need for study of the requirements, both of the armed services and of communities, in order to endeavour to make the most of the available medical personnel. This study has been made by the Canadian medical procurement and assignment board.
The board, as I said this afternoon, was established on the 20th July, 1942, by P.C. 6185, and later its activities were extended to the dental and nursing services by P.C. 10360 of 17th November, 1942, and P.C. 10934 of 1st December, 1942. The board consisted of five members of the Canadian medical advisory committee (appointed by the Canadian Medical Association), the director of medical services of the Department of Pensions and National Health, the medical director of the Department of National War Services, a representative of the director of national selective service and the heads of the three medical services of navy, army and air, and the directors of dental service.
Among the functions of the board were:
(a)	to make a survey and allocate as a result of information obtained medical officers in the proper proportions for appointment to the three branches of the armed forces of Canada;
(b)	to consider carefully in relation to the available supply of physicians for appointment to the armed forces the requirements of civilian institutions, public health departments, medical schools, war industries and communities in order that there shall be no impairment of essential public health services;
(c)	to undertake the responsibility for investigating conditions at first hand regarding

National Health
civilian needs and the possibility of making such arrangements as are possible and expedient where there is an apparent conflict between military and civilian needs.
In certain oases the needs of communities have become extremely urgent and some method was sought whereby consideration could be given to these exceptional cases. A plan has been evolved, with the objective of making available, on terms to be arranged with the provinces, a limited number of medical personnel to civilian communities, whose needs for medical services may be very exceptional and urgent.
The basis of the plan is:-
(a)	That the provinces request the furnishing of medical personnel in particular communities where it is alleged that there is urgent need;
(b)	That the need is established through
the advice of the Canadian medical procurement and assignment board-this board being advised by its local advisory committee in the province;	.
(c)	That the province, by arrangement witli the municipality or otherwise, will reimburse the receiver general on the basis of pay and allowances actually paid to the medical officer and with provision for any other expenses which may be specified;
(d)	That medical personnel be allotted from one of the armed services for the purpose of supplying, under the arrangement indicated, the medical personnel, the need for whom has been so established;
(e)	The armed services plan to replace the medical personnel so provided to civilian communities by admitting into the armed services younger qualified doctors who have previously been rejected because they were in some of the lower medical categories. It is proposed also to use in the armed services in Canada a larger number of doctors within the call-up age group who have previously been deferred or rejected. An endeavour will be made to obtain these medical men in communities from which they can be spared, as advised by the Canadian medical procurement and assignment board.
I should make it perfectly clear that this does not mean that there is any surplus of medical officers in the armed services. I need not say that, if there is any surplus, it will be utilized for the purposes indicated. But at the present, and with the prospective requirements of this year, it cannot be hoped that the armed forces can supply these medical personnel without having them replaced. However, with the doctors who are coming into the services as they graduate, together with the calling up
of others who have previously been deferred or rejected, it would -appear as if it would be practicable to make a limited number of the older and more experienced officers in the services available to help to supply urgent civilian needs.
I want to emphasize also that this number will be limited and it will certainly only be possible to supply men where the need is established as really urgent. The services will not be able to supply men for all communities where a doctor might be wanted to keep up the number who would be normally practising there under peace-time conditions. I should think it likely that it would only be possible to give consideration to those communities who have recently lost a doctor from one cause or another, and only in those places where the need is very apparent after taking account of what physicians may be available at nearby points.
Two advantages will be gained by retaining in uniform the doctors who are thus made available. First, they can be directed to communities where they are most urgently needed while being assured of reasonable economic security. Second, they will remain subject to service in the armed forces if at any time the need for them should become more urgent.
As I have indicated at the beginning, this plan cannot be made final until arrangements are concluded with the provinces. I shall give the house additional information when the matter is sufficiently developed to warrant a further statement.


Mr. F. D. SHAW (Red Deer):: May I ask the Minister of National Defence a question? Was any consideration given to the granting of permission to alien doctors to practise? I understand this has been done in the United States and in Great Britain, but that they have been refused permission here. I refer to men who have come to Canada, fully qualified, since the outbreak of the war. 1 understand there are some who are doing clerical work.


James Layton Ralston: I cannot say to my hon. friend that consideration has been given to them.
Mr. G. J.TUSTIN (Prince fldward-Lennox): I was glad to hear the statement by the minister. Has any consideration been given to dentists? In some sections (here is a great shortage of dentists.


James Layton Ralston: No, I do not think in connection with this plan any consideration has been given to dentists. I will take the matter up, to see if it is possible to make some similar arrangement.
t39S
Questions



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by
an asterisk.)

Mr. PERLEY:: How much in brokerage fees, commission or any other fees was paid by the Canadian wheat board to the following export firms since August 1, 1943: Alberta Pacific Grain Company Limited, Bunge North American Grain Corporation (Canadian Agency Limited), Cargill Grain - Company Limited, Continental Grain Company Limited, Laval and Company Incorporated, McCabe * Brothers Grain Company Limited, Searle Grain Company Limited, K. B. Stoddart & Company Limited?
Mr. MneKINNON (Edmonton West): Mr. Speaker, I have had a word with the hon. member for Qu'Appeile regarding this question. The same type of question was before the standing committee on agriculture and colonization during the 1942 session. The committee had before it a motion by the hon. member for Lake Centre, I believe, as follows:
That the board do produce to this committee a complete record of all brokerage fees of all kinds, and commissions paid since the outbreak of war, the persons or corporations to whom such payments were made; the amounts paid to each, and the particulars of service rendered therefore respectively by each of the said persons or corporations.
This motion called for all brokerage and all commissions and fees paid by the board to individual companies or persons; and the question the member for Qu'Appelle is now asking calls for the same information for a selected list of companies. When the motion to which I have just referred was before the committee on agriculture and colonization, the chief commissioner of the Canadian wheat board stated that the disclosure of such information by individual companies would be capable of misinterpretation, and in any event would be inimical to the board's future operations. The committee therefore decided that it would not accept responsibility for the disclosure of this detailed information. I might add that the Canadian wheat board properly discloses in its annual reports the total amounts of brokerage and carrying charges paid. It is the detailed disclosure by individual companies which would be inimical to the board's operations with these companies, and to which exception is being taken.
I am now advised that the annual report of the Canadian wheat board for the 1942-43 crop year is expected to be ready by about the end of this month.
I would suggest that the question be dropped.


Thomas Vien: Answered.


Ernest Edward Perley: I cannot agree to drop the question. The minister gives as a reason that last year a question in reference to brokerage was turned down by the agriculture committee, but that does not apply to a question which is asked in this house. Surely the house has more power than the committee had. I do n-ot see that such information could be misinterpreted or that it would do anyone any harm. On February 9 I asked the minister a question in regard to the sale of grain, and at that time he said that at a very early day he hoped to be able to give the house a statement. He made that statement on February 14, and in it he gave a list of fifteen firms who were doing this export business. Following that I asked for information in regard to some of these firms, and the minister replied-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Ernest Edward Perley: I think I am quite in order in replying to the statement made by the minister. At the time in question he said it was not possible to separate these amounts, which I said I did not think was a fair statement. Then I had a conference with the minister, during which he read from some notes he had received from the wheat board objecting to this information being given. I took exception to that stand, and said it was not right at all. There is nothing about this that could be misrepresented or wrongfully used in any way. The minister himself put on record the names of these export firms, and I am asking what fees they have been paid since August 1 of last year. I think this house is entitled to the information.


Thomas Vien: I have stated that the
minister has answered question No. 9 as it appears on the order paper. It will be considered as answered,


Ernest Edward Perley: Then I will place it on the order paper again and ask for the information in regard to all the firms.


USE BY FARMERS OF TRUCKS FOR TRANSPORTATION
Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: 1.	How many prosecutions, by provinces, have taken place against fanners for the use of their trucks for personal transportation purposes?
2.	What have been the maximum and minimum penalties imposed?


Mr. ABBOTT:: 1.	There have been no prosecutions of farmers for using their trucks "for personal transportation purposes"; but the following numbers of farmers were prosecuted for offences in-

* Questions
volving the use of trucks for the purpose of transporting passengers and for other uses held by the courts to be wasteful or unnecessary: N,ova Scotia 2, Ontario 1, Manitoba 1, Saskatchewan 31, Alberta 1.
2.	Penalties imposed, maximum $25 and court costs, minimum $2 and court costs.
flax-1942 CROP


Mr. BURTON:: 1.	How many bushels of each grade of flax did the farmers market of the 1942 crop, and to what board or agency?
2.	What was the price paid to the producer at Fort William or Port Arthur on each grade?
3.	How many bushels of each grade of flax were sold to the Canadian crushers of the 1942 crop, and at what price?
4.	How many bushels of each grade of Canadian flax of the 1942 crop were marketed in the United States, at what price, and was this f.o.b. Fort William and Port Arthur?


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: 1.	All flax of the 1942 crop was marketed through the Canadian Wheat Board. Deliveries by producers, by grades, were as follows:
Western Division Basis Fort William/Port Arthur
Grade	Bushels	Price per bushelNo. 1 C.W. Flax	8,811,253-39	$2 25No. 2 C.W. Flax	1,419,844-08	2 21No. 3 C.W. Flax	425,834-36	2 10No. 4 C.W. Flax	56,694-51	2 05Tf. 1 C.W. Flax	294,394-26	2 17Tf. 2 C.W. Flax	124,416-30	2 13Tf. 3 C.W. Flax	42,057-18	2 02Tf. 4 C.W. Flax	3,482-20	1 97Damp 1 C.W. Flax	2,869-43	2 11Damp 2 C.W. Flax	2,66S-17	2 07Damp 3 C.W. Flax	3,475-35	1 96Damp 4 C.W. Flax	622-05	1 91Sample Heated	1,797-48	1 85Tf. Sample Heated	673-47	1 SOTf. Sample Heated and Heating	525-24	1 75Tf. Heating 3 C.W. Flax	1,18S-51	1 90Tf. Heating 4 C.W. Flax	70-22	1 85Damp Sample Heated and Heating	35-09	1 70Damp Sample Heated.	62-28	1 75Sample Lady's Thumb.	5,980-13	1 90Sample False Flax	31-00	1 90Damp Sample Lady's Thumb	26-35	1 SOFlax-broken grain	436-08	1 75Sample Flax Mild	20-00	1 80Tf. Heated 3 C.W. Flax	20-46	1 9011,198,482-43	
Eastern Division Basis Montreal
Grade	Bushels	Price per bushelNo. 1 C.E. Flax	33,600-32	$2 25No. 2 C.E. Flax	20,480-24	2 21No. 3 C.E. Flax	23,299-23	2 10No. 4 C.E. Flax	6,053-22	2 05Tf. 1 C.E. Flax	5,796-44	2 17Tf. 2 C.E. Flax	10,037-29	2 13Tf. 3 C.E. Flax	5,132-11	2 02Tf. 4 C.E. Flax	12,033-12	1 97Damp 1 C.E. Flax	286-38	2 11Damp 2 C.E. Flax	207-24	2 07Damp 3 C.E. Flax	203-00	1 96Damp 4 C.E. Flax	931-47	1 91Sample C.E. Flax	2,142-53	1 85Tf. Sample C.E. Flax..	240-04	1 77
120,445-27
2.	Prices shown above basis Fort William/ Port Arthur, or Montreal.
3.	Western Division
Sales to Canadian Crushers to January 31, 1944
Basis No. 1 C.W. Flax $1.64
Grade	Bushels	PriceNo. 1 C.W. Flax	3,987,569-25	$1 64No. 2 C.W. Flax	67,502-04	1 60No. 3 C.W. Flax	31,259-29	1 49No. 4 C.W. Flax	974-44	1 44Tf. 1 C.W. Flax	9,845-42	1 56Tf. 2 C.W. Flax	11,116-12	1 52Tf. 3 C.W. Flax	218-24	1 41Tf. 4 C.W. Flax	227-19	1 36Damp 1 C.W. Flax	317-21	1 50Damp 2 C.W. Flax	155-55	1 46Damp 4 C.W. Flax	6-51	1 30Sample Heated	7,250-24	1 24Tf Sample Heated	6-00	1 19Tf. Heating 4 C.W. Flax	70-22	1 24Damp Sample Heated and Heating	35-09	1 09Sample Lady's Thumb.	1,937-14	1 29Damp Sample Lady's Thumb	26-35	1 19Damp Sample Heated..	5-00	1 144,118,524-38	
Questions

Eastern Division
Sales to Canadian Crushers to January 31, 1944
Grade
No. 1 C.E. Flax
No. 2 C.E. Flax	
No. 3 C.E. Flax	
No. 4 C.E. Flax	
Tf. 1 C.E. Flax...
Tf. 2 C.E. Flax	
Tf. 3 C.E. Flax..
Tf. 4 C.E. Flax	
Damp 1 C.E. Flax....
Damp 2 C.E. Flax....
Damp 3 C.E. Flax....
Damp 4 C.E. Flax....
Sample CJE. Flax....
Tf. Sample C.E. Flax..
Basis No. 1 C.E. Flax $1.64
Bushels Price 33,600-32	$1	6420,480-24	1	6023,299-23	1	496,053-22	1	445,796-44	1	5610,037-29	1	525,132-11	1	4112,033-12	1	36286-38	1	50207-24	1	46203-00	1	35931-47	1	302,142-53	1	24240-04	1	16
120,445-27
4.	Flax sold for export to the United States is ^confined to No. 1 C.W. Flax, of which 6,253,944-31 bushels were sold for export basis Fort William/Port Arthur in store values at an average price of S2-591934 per bushel.


PRICE OF EXPORT WHEAT
Ernest Edward Perley: 
Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: 1.	The basis is the differential between the values of wheat in Canada and the United States. The prices are issued daily to exporters and mills and are in force from 1:15 p.m. to 9:30 a.m. the following day, except on Saturdays when they are in force from 12:00 noon until 9:30 a.m. the following market day.
2.	The wheat held by the Canadian wheat board for the account of his majesty under order in council P.C. 7942 of October 'l2, 1943 must be made available to fill domestic requirements and to provide wheat under the war appropriations (United Nations Mutual Aid) Act.^ The price at which this wheat is made available is fixed from time to time by the governor in council. See paragraph 7 of order in council P.C. 7942 of October 12, 1943. The price from September 28, 1943 to date has been SI.25 per bushel, basis No. 1 northern, Fort William/Port Arthur.
{Mr. J. A. MacKinnon.]
3.	For countries included under the United Nations Mutual Aid Act, the basis is the same as for the United Kingdom (No. 2 above). For all other countries, the basis is the same as for the United States (No. 1 above).


EMPLOYMENT OF PRISONERS OF WAR
Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: 1.	How many prisoners of war are now employed, (a) on all projects; (b) in agriculture;
(c)	in pulpwood?
2.	What are the numbers by nationality?


Mr. MARTIN:: 1.	(a) 4,117; (b) 142; (c) 3,056.
2.	German, 4,044; Italian, 73.


WARTIME HOUSING LIMITED
Mr. NICHOLSON:: 1.	Who is the manager-director of Wartime Housing Limited?
2.	What salary is he being paid?


Mr. MICHAUD:: 1.	There is at present no manager-director of Wartime Housing Limited. Until such time as an appointment is made, Mr. K. W. Bash is serving as acting general manager.
2.	A salary of $12,000 per annum was paid to Mr. Victor Goggin, , former managing director of Wartime Housing Limited.


R.C.A.F. RATES OF PAY
Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: 1.	What is the basic rate of pay of, (a) pilot officer; (b) sergeant, in each of the following aircrew categories: pilot, navigator, air bomber, wireless air gunner, air gunner?
2.	What is the rate of flying pay per day,
(a)	in operations over Europe; (b) for nonflying officers riding as passengers on duty in service aircraft in Canada?


Mr. POWER:: 1.	(a) Pilot Officer: $6.25 a day in all categories mentioned, (b) Sergeant: Pilot, navigator, air bomber, $3.70 a day; wireless air gunner, $3.45 a day; air gunner, $2.95 a day.
2.	(a) Included in base pay shown above.
(b)	$2 for any day on which they fly on duty.


CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS
Mr. DOUGLAS (Weybum):: 1.	What are the names, home addresses and ages of all persons imprisoned or sent to alternative service camps from the beginning of the present war to January 31, 1944, for refusing to do military service on the grounds that they were conscientious objectors?
2.	Where are each of these individuals located
at the present time, and what length of prison terms are they serving?	.

Questions
3.	Which of these individuals were granted status of conscientious objector, and which were refused?


Mr. DOUGLAS (Weybum):: The officials of the department concerned have asked that this question be rearranged. I am quite prepared to redraft the question, and I ask that it be dropped.
Question dropped.


CAPE BRETON ENLISTMENTS AND DEFERMENTS
Mr. GILLIS:: 1.	What is the total number of enlistments from the county of Cape Breton, Nova Scotia?
2.	Of these, (a) what are the names of those rejected and the reason therefor; (b) by whom were they rejected?
3.	What are the names of the personnel of the medical examining board for this district?
4.	How many deferments were there in the military district of Cape Breton, Nova Scotia?
Mr. RALSTON; I do not think it is possible to give the information asked for in paragraphs 1 and 2, so far as the army is concerned. I will take up the matter with the hon. member, who is asking for information with regard to all three services. I think the question should be dropped, and we will give the hon. member such information as we have.
Question dropped.


R.C.A.F.-AIRCREW
Mr. TUCKER:: _ 1. At whose request was the recent air conference between the Royal Canadian Air Force and the British air ministry held?
2.	Will the production of aircrew be curtailed during the next year because of the closing of schools?
3.	Will the production of trained aircrew be sufficient to meet, (a) any necessary expansion of the number of operational units and squadrons in the front line; (b) any wastage or replacements?
4.	Has the Department of National Defence for Air made provision for the training of sufficient recruits to fill the quota of trainees required in accordance with the terms of the recent conference agreement?
5.	What schools of the B.C.J.A.T.P. will be closed as a result of the joint decision of the United Kingdom and the Canadian government at the recent conference, and on what date will these schools be closed?


Mr. POWER:: Note: Information contained herein covers the period up to 31st December, 1944.
1.	British Air Ministry.
2.	No.
3.	(a) Yes (b) Yes.
4.	Yes.
5.	No. 2 Aircrew Graduate training, School, Quebec, P.Q.-To be disbanded 15th March, 1944.
No. 39 S.F.T.S., Swift Current, Sask.-To be disbanded 24t.h March, 1944.
No. 34 O.T.U., Pennfield Ridge, N.B.-To be disbanded 19th May, 1944.
No. 8 S.F.T.S., Weyburn, Sask.-To be disbanded 30th June, 1944.
No. 5 I.T.S., Belleville, Ont.-To be disbanded July or August, 1944. (May be used for other R.C.A.F. purposes).
No. 6 I.T.S., Toronto, Ont.-To be disbanded July or August, 1944.
No. 7 I.T.S., Saskatoon, Sask.-To be disbanded July or August, 1944.
No. 12 E.F.T.S., Goderich, Ont.-To be disbanded 14th July, 1944.
No. 2 A.O.S., Edmonton, Alta.-To be disbanded 25th August, 1944.
No. 2 E.F.T.S., Fort William, Ont.-To be disbanded 25th August, 1944.
No. 4 E.F.T.S., Windsor Mills, P.Q.-To be disbanded 25th August, 1944.
No. 15 E.F.T.S., Regina, Sask.-To be disbanded 25th August, 1944.
No. 25 E.F.T.S., Assiniboia, Sask.-To be disbanded 25th August, 1944.
No. 26 E.F.T.S., Neepawa, Man.-To be disbanded 25th August, 1944.
No. 31 E.F.T.S., De Winton, Alta.-To be disbanded 25th August, 1944.
No. 32 E.F.T.S., Bowden, Alta.-To be disbanded 25th August, 1944.
No. 14 S.F.T.S. Aylmer, Ont.-To be disbanded 20th October, 1944.
No. 11 S.F.T.S., Yorkton, Sask.

To be disbanded 1st December, 1944.
No. 33 S.F.T.S., Carberry, Man.-To be disbanded 1st December, 1944.
No. 2 B.G.S., Mossbank, Sask.-To be disbanded 1st December 1944.
No. 8 B.G.S., Lethbridge, Alta.-To be disbanded 1st December 1944.
No. 31 B.G.S., Picton, Ont.-To be disbanded 1st December, 1944.
No. 5 S.F.T.S., Brantford, Ont-To be disbanded 15th December, 1944.
No. 6 S.F.T.S., Dunnville, Ont.-To be disbanded 15th December, 1944.
No. 7 S.F.T.S., MacLeod, Alta.-To be disbanded 15th December, 1944.
No. 32 S.F.T.S., Moose Jaw, Sask.-To be disbanded 15th December, 1944.
No. 34 S.F.T.S., Medicine Hat, Alta.-To be disbanded 15th December, 1944.
No. 36 S.F.T.S., Penhold, Alta.-To be disbanded 15th December, 1944.
No. 4 Wireless School, Guelph, Ont.-To be disbanded 29th December, 1944.

Questions


R.C.A.F.-WIRELESS MECHANICS
Mr. NOSEWORTHY:: Is the basic pay of wireless mechanics enlisted in the air force raised to $1.50 per day at the end of six months' training or only at the completion of their course?


Charles Gavan Power: Basic pay of wireless
mechanics is not raised to $1.50 per day after six months, nor on completion of their course. Throughout their course, covering 18 weeks at a war emergency training programme school and 28 weeks at wireless school, wireless mechanics are classified as A.C. 2, and are paid $1.30 per day. On successful completion of the course, they automatically receive "C" grouping, for which they are paid an extra 25 cents per day "trades pay". On posting to their first unit.after graduation, they are normally reclassified as A.C. 1, and receive an additional 10 cents per day basic pay, bringing basic pay to $1.40 per day and total pay to $1.65 per day.


SHIPMENTS OP ANTIMONY TO THE ARGENTINE
Mr. CASTLEDEN:: What permits were granted for the shipment of antimony from Canada to Argentine during each of the years 1939, 1940, 1941, 1942 and 1943?


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: No export permits were issued for the shipment of antimony to the Argentine for the years 1939 to 1943.


PUR SEAL AGREEMENT WITH THE UNITED STATES
Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: 1.	Under the provisions set forth in the exchange of notes (December 8-19, 1942) between Canada and the United States of America, recording an agreement for the preservation and protection of fur seals, and having particular reference to article IX thereof, has any legislation been passed by the parliament of Canada giving effect to the provisions of the said agreement and providing penalties for the violation thereof?
2.	If so, in -what year, and by what act of parliament?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
prices-MILK


Mr. McNEVIN:: What was the price paid to farmers for, (a) butter fat, per pound; (b) milk for cheese manufacture, per hundredweight; (c) milk for powdering, per hundredweight, on June 15 and December 15 in the years 1929, 1933, 1943, bonuses to be included?


James Angus MacKinnon: Average prices received by Ontario farmers; 1943 prices including bonus:

	Butterfat cents per lb.		
1929	1933	1943June 15 	.... 39-8	20-0	42-9December 15	... 40-9	24-2	47-9Milk for Cheese Manufacture	$ per owt.	June 15 ....	.... 1-70	*72	1-65December 15	... 1-80	*78	2-00Milk for Powdering	$ per cwt.	June 15 ....	.... 2-00	*85	1-82December 15	... 2-08	[DOT]90	2-13


CAIRO AND TEHERAN CONFERENCES
Mr. POULIOT:: 1.	Was Canada represented at the Cairo and Teheran conferences held last year?
2.	If so, by whom?
3.	If not, is Canada bound by the decisions taken at such conferences?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	No, but obviously any conclusions relating to the conduct of the war reached by the representatives and heads of governments participating in these conferences will carry very great authority with all members of the united nations.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	How many fatal accidents have occurred in Canada each year since the beginning of the war to the end of 1943?
2.	How many have been injured during the same period?
3.	How many deaths and injuries occurred at level crossings for the same period?
4.	How many have been killed and wounded in this war, and what have been the total war casualties during the above mentioned period?


PRICES STABILIZATION-VEGETABLES
Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: 1.	On how many tons of imported potatoes was a subsidy paid between December 1, 1941, and December 31, 1943, by the Commodity Prices Stabilization Corporation?
2.	When will an announcement be made as to the 1944 subsidies on corn, beans and peas?



DOMINION COAL AND NOVA SCOTIA STEEL AND COAL COMPANY  SUBSIDIES

Mr. GILLIS:: How much was paid the Dominion Coal Company and the Nova Scotia Steel and Coal Company in the years 1937 and 1938 by way of subsidy, subvention or other assistance?

Questions as Orders for Returns



SELECTIVE SERVICE MOBILIZATION BOARDS- POSTPONEMENTS

Mr. CASTLEDEN:: 1.	What persons served on national selective service mobilization boards for Manitoba. Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia during 1941, i942 and 1943, and during what periods did each of such persons serve?
2.	What persons served as military, agricultural, industrial or other representatives to each of these boards, and during what periods did all of these persons serve?
3.	How many applications for postponement were received in each province during 1941 and 1942?
4.	How many postponements were granted by each board during 1941 and 1942?
5.	What military positions did each of the military representatives in each province hold while acting as military representative to or member of any mobilization board in Canada?



NAVAL SERVICE-SUBSISTANCE ALLOWANCE TO OTTAWA PERSONNEL

Mr. ROY:: 1.	Are members from the ranks in the R.C.N. stationed in Ottawa being, granted $1.45 per day as subsistence allowance?
2.	Are members of the other armed forces also_ stationed in Ottawa still granted only $1.25 per day as subsistence allowance?
3.	If so, what is the reason why this allowance is not the same as for members of the R.C.N. ?



ACADIA SUGAR REFINERY

Mr. ISNOR:: 1.	What steps if any are being taken to relieve the double transportation of raw sugar being hauled over the lines of the Canadian National Railways from the port of Halifax, Nova Scotia, to inland points to be refined?
2.	Do the reasons given for the closing down of the Acadia Sugar Refinery at Woodside, Halifax county, N.S., still exist?
3.	Do transportation difficulties now exist to such an extent as they did two years ago?
4.	Does the scarcity of fuel oil, for operating purposes, exist to the same extent as it did when the plant was closed?



DOMINION-WIDE TEACHERS' CERTIFICATES

Mr. ISNOR:: 1.	Has any dominion conference been called within the past two years by any branch of the government inviting provincial educational authorities with a view of studying ways and means so as to validate teachers' certificates so that a teaching certificate secured in any province may be valid for use in any other province?
2.	If such conference was held, on what date, where, what were the names of representatives of provinces attending; the subjects discussed and considered, and decisions reached?
3.	Was the question of free-exchange of teachers between provinces considered? If so, with what results?


Mr. McLARTY:: Return tabled.



KXK-894 SELECTIVE SERVICE-BOUCHARD PLANT, STE. TIIERESE, QUK.

Mr. RAYMOND:: 1.	How many employees, (a) male; (b) female, in the plant known as the Bouchard plant, at Sainte-Therhse, Quebec, have been laid off within the last two months and how many have quit work voluntarily?
2.	Were those who left work voluntarily, threatened with a salary reduction, directly or indirectly?
3.	Within the last two months, how many -persons formerly employed at the Nobel plant, Ontario, have been transferred to the Bouchard plant, at Saint-Therese, Quebec, by the selective service, and who paid their travelling expenses?
4.	Within the past two months, how many persons employed in other plants of Ontario and other provinces have been transferred to the Bouchard plant, at Sainte-Ther6se, Quebec, by the selective service, and who paid their travelling expenses?



SELECTIVE SERVICE-BOUCHARD PUNT, STE. THERESE, QUE.

Mr. BERTRAND (Terrebonne):: 1.	How many employees of the Defence Industries Limited plant at Nobel have been transferred to Bouchard, since the 1st of November, 1943?
2.	What are the names and addresses of employees so transferred?
3.	What was the occupation, at Nobel, of each of the persons so transferred, and what was his salary?
4.	What is the occupation, at Bouchard, of each of the persons so transferred, and what is his salary?
5.	Have the persons so transferred taken positions already occupied? If so, what are the names and addresses of the persons who have been replaced?



SELECTIVE SERVICE


Mr. RAYMOND:: 1.	Within the last six months how many employees working at the Nitro war plant, near Valleyfield, operated by Defence Industries Ltd., have been laid off?
2.	Within the last six months, how many new employees have been hired in the service of the same company at the same place?
2. Within the last six months, how many persons formerly employed at the Nobel plant, Ontario, have been transferred to the Nitro plant, near Valleyfield, by selective service, and who paid their travelling expenses?
4.	Within the last six mouths, how many persons employed in other plants in Ontario and other province's have been transferred to the Nitro plant, near Vaiieyfield. by the selective service, and who paid their travelling expenses?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS

[Stage Direction]
SINKING OF "b.C. STAR"
Mr. McGEER:: For a copy of all letters, communications, reports or other documents pertaining to the
Motions for Papers

sinking of the boat B.C. Star off the coast of British Columbia while being operated in the service of the Department of National Defence for Air.



MOBILIZATION ACT-POSTPONEMENTS IN SASKATCHEWAN

Mr. COLDWELL:: For a copy of all correspondence, letters, telegrams, memoranda and other documents exchanged between members of the House of ' Commons or members of the Saskatchewan legislature and the minister responsible for the administration of the National Resources Mobilization Act, or, with the Saskatchewan national resources mobilization board, or any member thereof, relating to deferments, postponements or exemptions from military service, between the organization of the said board and December 31, 1943.



MOBILIZATION ACT-SASKATCHEWAN ROBERT M'KAHOFF

Major James William Coldwell: For a copy of all letters, telegrams, memoranda and other documents in possession of any department of government or minister relating to the case of Robert Makaroff, of Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, together with a copy of the judgment of the mobilization board of division "M" and dated at Regiua, the 25th day of November, 1943.



AGRICULTURE-EXPENSE ACCOUNTS OF CERTAIN EMPLOYEES

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: For a copy of all expense accounts, vouchers, receipts and forms A-101 submitted during the period from June 15 to August 15, 1943, by the following persons employed by the Department of Agriculture: J. Walton, E. B. Cressman. R. G. Hobbs. E. J. Flory, J. E. Bergey, P. J. Gormicau. P. M. Johnson, P. M. Buchinski, E. W. Hartle, H. Krienke, Henry Poss, H. Roth,
G.	W. Newell, Colbin Erickson, Henry Theissing,
H.	A. Boucher, R. F. McGregor.



NATIONAL DEFENCE-SHERBROOKE, N.S., PROPERTY

[Stage Direction]
Mr. GILL1S:
For a copy of all letters, telegrams, communications, exchanged between the Department of National Defence and any person or persons, relating to the renting or leasing of property in Sherbrooke, Nova Scotia, for national defence purposes.

Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: For a copy of all correspondence since the entrance of Prince Edward Island into confederation exchanged between the government of Prince Edward Island and the federal government, in connexion with the proposed building of a tunnel or causeway from Cape Tormentine, New Brunswick, to Prince Edward Island.
Also for a copy of all plans, surveys and estimates of cost with dates of each survey and estimate and by whom made.
(Mr. McGcer.]


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Could not my hon. friend indicate more precisely the documents he wishes to receive? This return, as will be seen by an examination of the motion, involves going through correspondence in departments at Ottawa back to the year 1873.
My hon. friend knows that almost every year there has been some one or more persons who have felt it their duty to urge the construction of this tunnel. What plans have been made or what estimates have been made I cannot say. But I am sure of this, that it would take a good part of a year to prepare the return in the form in which it is asked for, and the expense involved in preparing it would be very large-some one has just remarked it might equal the cost of the tunnel.


Percy Chapman Black: I should like to comply with the wishes of the Prime Minister, but I would point out to him that this involves only the correspondence between the government of Prince Edward Island and the federal government. It deals with only one subject. True, it has been lengthy, but the people of Prince Edward Island have been waiting for the solution of this problem for a long time; it was one of the conditions of confederate" I believe there have not been very many surveys and plans, and the information could be readily gathered and submitted to the house.
I suggest that the motion be allowed to siand over, and if the ministers of the departments concerned consider that the correspondence and information is too voluminous, and is not of special interest at the present time, they might confer with me, and we would reduce the correspondence to the amount required. I must say, however, that a great many people are interested in this matter.
Motion stands.



WARTIME HOUSING-RESIGNATION OF VICTOR T. GOOCIN

Mr. NICHOLSON:: For a copy of all letters, telegrams, memoranda, and other documents, in connection with the resignation of Victor T. Goggin, general manager of Wartime Housing.



MEAT BOARD-TORONTO BEEF SLAUGHTERINGS

Mr. SENN:: For a copy of all letters, including copies of orders enclosed, telegrams or other orders of communications, passing between the meat board or any of its members and its officials, on the one hand, and meat packing companies, wholesale butchers or commission merchants, doing business in the city of Toronto, during the months of July and August, 1942, and having reference to the government agreeing to take 20 per cent of all beef slaughterings; also a

Irish Free State
statement showing the number of carcasses so taken, from whom, and at what price in each case.



IRISH FREE STATE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. GORDON GRAYDON (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to
address a question to the Prime Minister. Press reports from London would seem to indicate that Prime Minister de Valera appealed to the Prime Minister of Canada in connection with the recent United States demand for a cessation of axis espionage activities in Eire. Will the Prime Minister be good enough to inform the house fully upon this point and table the correspondence or such other communications as may have passed between the governments of Canada and Eire relative thereto?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, I had anticipated -an inquiry from the leader of the opposition-indeed he was kind enough to give me no-tice of it in advance

and I have prepared a short statement for the information of the house with regard to the reports which have appeared in the press recently concerning representations which have been made to the Irish government by the government of the United States requesting the expulsion of German and Japanese diplomatic and consular representatives from Ireland.
On Friday evening, March 10, the State department in Washington made public the text of the United States note of February 21, and simultaneously the Irish legation in Washington announced -the reply of the Irish Government. On the same date -a newspaper report from London made the statement that Mr. de Valera had appealed to me "to mediate" -in the affair, shortly after the presentation of the United States note.
It -may, perhaps, clarify matters if I say at the outset that the Canadian government has not in any way endeavoured to mediate between the Irish government and the United States government, also that such representations as were received were in the nature of informal confidential conversations.
Shortly after the presentation of the notes, Mr. de Valera sent for Mr. Kearney, our High Commissioner in Ireland, and told him that he considered it would be in the mutual interest of Ireland and the united nations if through the intervention of a friendly nation the notes might be withdrawn. He suggested *Canada might be willing to assume this task
and asked Mr. Kearney to put his request before the Canadian government. Subsequently Mr. Hearne, the High Commissioner for Ireland, resident in this city, came to see me personally. In my reply it was made clear that, as the Canadian government was in full sympathy with the object of the approach made by the United States government, we would not wish to intervene in the matter.
I believe that the informal discussions which took place through Mr. Kearney in Dublin and with Mr. Hearne here were of some help at the time in steadying a difficult situation. Since there were no written- communications exchanged between the Irish and Canadian governments, there are no documents to be tabled.
Mr. de Valera made it very plain that his government had done and would continue to do its utmost to prevent the axis representatives now on its soil from using their position there to secure information which could be used to the disadvantage of the united nations. At the same time, there can be n-o doubt in the minds of any of us here that the axis representatives will not hesitate to abuse the privileges that have been granted- them as diplomatic or consular representatives in Ireland if by such abuse they can in any way injure the united nations.



INCOME TAX


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. S. H. KNOWLES (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. Speaker, on February 29. as reported at page 1025 of Hansard, the Minister of National- Defence (Mr. Ralston) said that before long an announcement would be made respecting the income tax status of men who went to Kiska. I refer to the 13th Canadian infantry brigade, which included along with other units the reconstituted first battalion of the Winnipeg Grenadiers. Could the minister or some other member of the government indicate when that announcement might be expected?


James Layton Ralston: It is expected that an announcement will be made on the matter very shortly.



PENSIONS-OLD AGE AND BLIND-AMENDMENT, MR. KNOWLES

[Stage Direction]
Right Hon, W. L. MACKENZIE KING
(Prime Minister) moved that the house go into committee of supply.
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker-
Old Age and Blind Pensions


Richard Burpee Hanson: Mr. Speaker, is this a motion to go into supply?


Thomas Vien: Yes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Do I understand that you have seen the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) ahead of me?


Thomas Vien: Yes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is this
not a new motion? I am asking for information.


Thomas Vien: Yes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Well, the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre is resuming the debate.


Thomas Vien: No; the hon. member
wishes to speak on the motion to go into supply.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, before Your Honour
leaves the chair there is a matter which I should like to call to the attention of this house, and before I resume my seat I shall move an amendment which will set forth the points that I wish to raise.
The subject which I feel should be discussed at this time is that of old age pensions. There are four phases of the subject which I feel should be gone into by the members of this house: first, the amount of the pension now being paid; second, the question of "other income" which the old age and blind pensioners are allowed to receive; third, the question of the pensionable age; and finally, the matter of the old age pensions regulations, which I believe all members of the house feel should be thoroughly revised.
Perhaps it would be well at this time to give the wording of the amendment which I shall move as I conclude my remarks. It is as follows:
That all the words after the word "that" to the end of the question be struck out and the following substituted therefor: this house desires to record its opinion that immediate consideration should be given to increasing the amount of the old age and blind pension, and also the amount of other income which an old age or blind pensioner may receive; and further, that immediate consideration should be given to lowering the pensionable age, and to a thorough revision of the old age pensions regulations.
My reasons for raising the matter at this time are four. First of all I have in mind the experience that we had in this house last year. A number of us were most anxious that this matter should be discussed thoroughly and
IMr. Mackenzie King.]
properly during the session of the house, but hon. members will recall that we were prevented from any adequate discussion of the subject until the item in the estimates dealing with old age pension administration had been called. That item was not called until about nine o'clock in the evening of the 24th of July, about two hours before the session was concluded. I was not here during the previous session, but on looking at Hansard I find that in the 1942 session this matter again was not reached until the last day, namely, on August 1, 1942, and even when it was reached that year an effort was made by the chairman of the committee of supply to prevent the discussion of matters such as are referred to in my amendment. I also point out that there has been no indication in the speech from the throne or anywhere else that this matter is due for any thorough discussion on the initiative of the government this year.
My second reason for bringing the matter up at this time is that there is in the offing, although we have not been told when it will take place, a dominion-provincial conference. It seems to me that this is a subject which should be dealt with at this conference, and it is desirable that the opinion of this house, of all of its members, should be made clear, well in advance of the holding of the conference.
My third reason for raising the question at this time is its importance to a great many of our people, especially to the 190,000 who are in receipt of the pension, as well as to many others who are not receiving it because of restrictions in the regulations and for other reasons.
My fourth reason is that it seems to me the subject is one for proper discussion along with the debate which is now proceeding on the industrial development bank bill. There we are dealing with the problem of production in the post-war period, and I raise this question as one phase of the counter-problem, that of distributing the goods we are able to produce.
I turn to the first question dealt with in my amendment, the amount of the pension, and I should like first of all to give some figures that will indicate, as well as can be indicated by the statistics available, what we are paying to our old age pensioners at the present time. According to the last report of the Department of Finance on old age pension matters, issued on March 31, 1943, the following were the average monthly amounts being paid to old age pensioners by provinces, as of that date:

Old Age and Blind Pensions
Average
Province	amount
monthly
Alberta	
$18	69British Columbia	
19	28Manitoba	
18	78New Brunswick	
15	27Nova Scotia	
15	65Ontario	
18	86Prince Edward Island	
13	48Quebec	
17	20Saskatchewan	
17	53Northwest Territories	
20	00
The average for the whole of Canada on March 31, 1943, was $17.46 per month per pensioner. I repeat, those are the figures for March 31, 1943. Since that date there have been certain increases, notably the increase announced by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley) on July 24 of last year, and which was provided for by order in council P.C.6367 of August 10, 1943. That order in council provided for increases in some cases to a maximum of $25 per month. We have not yet been able to get figures as to the effect of that provision, and in order to try to arrive at the amount now being paid to our old age pensioners I have done this. I have found that the amount to be appropriated in the civil estimates for this year for old age pensions to be paid by the federal government is $31,526,500.
Also in Hansard for the present session, at page 395, I find that there is to be in the war appropriation bill, covering the extra amount provided by the order in council to which I have referred, an item of $6,942,250. In other words, the federal government is setting aside this year a total of $38,468,750 for payments to old age and blind pensioners. One must take into account the fact that this represents seventy-five per cent of the amount which the pensioners will receive; the other twenty-five per cent is to be paid by the provinces. When one makes the necessary adjustment by adding for the provinces the sum of $12,822,913, one arrives at a total figure of $51,291,663. This is the total amount provided for old age and blind pensioners for the coming fiscal year. There are, according to the statistics of the Department of Finance, 190.000 old age and blind pensioners. By a process of simple arithmetic, assuming that all this money being provided will be disbursed, we arrive at the figure of $22.49 per month as the amount we are proposing to pay on the average to oui old age and blind pensioners this year. I understand that in one or perhaps two of the provinces there are amounts which are supplementary to this $22.49. I doubt if it will be in excess of five dollars, but even if these payments are being made in the two far western provinces it does not affect this as the basic average for the whole of Canada.
I need not take time to emphasize the hopeless inadequacy of $22.49 per month to maintain the existence of the old people over seventy who have made their contribution to the well-being of this country. Such words as "callous" and "inhuman", if one applies them, hardly tell the story as it ought to be told. Surely it is no longer necessary to argue the case for old age pensions as not a matter of charity but as a matter of right, as an integral feature in our modern society. The old idea lingers on that it is charity, that it is something which we hand out as it were, that it is a heavy cost borne by government; therefore, that any of us who rise and ask that this amount be increased are seeking to place too heavy a burden on the country as a whole. Actually what is involved in the payment of old age pensions is the recognition that the people of this country, when through their working years they make a contribution to the building up of the wealth and the productive capacity of Canada, are entitled, when they reach an age as a matter of fact far less than seventy, to share in the wealth and the productivity which they have helped to build up. The amount involved in making even a fairly sizable increase in the old age pension is relatively small, as I shall presently show. But before doing so I want to say that even if it were large, that in my opinion is no longer an argument against making sizable increases in the amount of the old age pension.
On July 24 of last year the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard (Mr. McGeer) made an interesting comparison between Canada and Australia with respect to the payments for old age pensions in proportion to population. I shall not take the time to give the details which he gave then, except to state the conclusion which can be drawn from the figures which he placed on Hansard, namely that if we were putting into old age pensions in proportion to our population the amount that is being paid in Australia we would be appropriating two and one-half or three times as much as we are now providing for this purpose.
On this whole question of, as I put it, the relatively small amount of money it would take to increase the pensions of our people, I would refer hon. members to the remarks of the Minister of Finance on July 24. 1943, when he announced the .possible five dollar a month increase. At that time he stated that the total cost of adding a flat amount of $5 per month to the pension of all our pensioners in Canada, old age and blind, would be a little less than $11,400,000.
My suggestion, although I have not put specific figures in the amendment which I
Old Age and Blind Pensions

propose to make, is that we should right now be adding $15 to the amount of the pension which we are paying our people; in other words, providing for a maximum, in cases where pensioners would qualify for it, of $40 per month. This would obviously involve an additional amount of three times the figure which the Minister of Finance gave last July for a five-dollar increase. In other words the cost, even though the federal government paid the entire amount, of adding $15 to the pension of all our old age and blind pensioners, would be $34,200,000. There was a day in this house when that sum sounded very large, and it still is a lot of money, as the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Abbott) said the other day about another sum; but I point out that it is only one-seventh of the amount by which we are reducing our war appropriation bill this year. In other words this entire amount, sufficient to add $15 per month to the pension of every old age and blind pensioner, could be paid by the federal government, could be added if need be to .the war appropriation bill, and we would still be voting a war appropriation bill of $205,800,000 less than w'e voted last year.
There are one or two other ways in which I should like to look at these amounts of money which we pay or ought to be paying to old age pensioners. This $34,200,000, which I repeat is what it would cost to add $15 a month to every pension, sounds like a lot of money, but in relation to the total expenses of this government for this year it is infinitesimal. We have not before us as yet the final statement as to what the total expenses th'is year will be, but they will be in the neighbourhood, I imagine, of $5,000,000,000. I arrive at that figure by taking $3,650,000,000 as the amount of the war appropriation bill, $700,000,000 as the total of the civil estimates, and then I took the figure of $650,000,000 as a possible amount of the Mutual Aid Bill, although the minister has not yet said what it will be, except that it will be less than last year's thousand million dollars. Well, $34,-
200,000	in relation to five thousand millions is, I repeat, infinitesimal. In fact, in order to increase the pension by the $15 per month which I am proposing, we would have to raise, for each dollar we are now raising, an additional amount of less than seven tenths of one cent. Seven tenths of one cent additional money for each dollar we are now raising would provide the $34,200,000 necessary to add $15 to the pension of every old age and blind pensioner.
One other comment I should like to make with regard to the amount of money we are
pVIr Kd'jwIos.J
spending on old age pensions. Last year we voted in this house-and we in this group were glad, along with other members, the vast majority at any rate, to vote that money- assistance to our allies to carry out the purposes of the war. We voted to give away for that purpose the sum of $1000 million. I would point out that at the present time the federal government is spending on old age pensions only $40 million, as a matter of fact a little less. Last year we were able to give away for the purposes of the war, to other -countries, a sum of money sufficient to pay the old age pension bill for twenty-five years.
I submit that we are not discharging our responsibility to these people by the small amount of money we are spending on them. Even if a larger amount were involved in increasing the payment to old age pensioners, that as I see it is no argument against the proposal that this should be done. So far as the future of our economy is concerned, there are two problems. First, there is the problem of production, and we are dealing with that at the present time. We have a bill relating in part to that problem. Then there is the problem of distribution. We have now not so much the old question, where is the money to come from; the question now is, where is the production that we are capable of achieving going to.
I contend that along with our attacking of the problems of production we have to devise ways and means of distributing among our people the goods which we are capable of producing, and I suggest that one of the best places to start on such a programme is by increasing the amount we are contributing to our old age pensioners, and that this should be as a matter of right. In the same breath I would mention the responsibility which I think we should discharge, on a generous basis, to those who come home maimed or suffering in consequence of their service in the present war. I would point out that the contribution of this money to our old people involves putting purchasing power into their hands; that money will by no manner of means be hoarded; it will be used and spent. Every argument is on the side of making such an increase without delay.
The cry that there would be inflation in adding sums of money such as these to the purchasing power of the people is ridiculous so long as we at the same time arrange for the production of goods to be set against this increased purchasing power. That is what we have done during the course of the war. Before the war broke out, thousands of our young men were unemployed. The suggestion

Old Age and Blind, Pensions
at that time that we should find money in order to put them to work was treated in some quarters as ridiculous and impossible. But what have we done? We have taken many of these men off the streets, off the relief rolls, and provided for them-to enable them to do a job in this war-sums of money such as many of them never before had seen. At the same time we have seen to it that goods and services, both peace time and war time, have been produced and we have not had any threat or scare of wild inflation. On the contrary, we have now, as a result of these tremendouslj' increased sums of money in circulation, the highest level of economic activity and the highest standard of living we have ever had in our Canadian history.
I repeat therefore that the cost of raising these pensions is not great but even if it were, every argument at this stage of the game is on the side of taking this step. At this point may I say this. I feel that we should not get into any argument as to whether increases in old age pensions such as these should be paid by the dominion or by the provinces. The argument for payment by the provinces, as I see it, is a hangover from the idea that old age pensions are a form of charity to be provided as a sort of social service by the provinces. As I see it, old age pensions represent part of our philosophy of society in these days, and when a nation as a whole produces wealth such as we are capable of producing our people should share in that wealth. It is Canada as a whole that has the say as to the means whereby wealth is produced, and there is no question but that the responsibility for paying an adequate retiring allowance should rest with the federal government.
And now I want to t.urn to the second subject I referred to in the amendment which I wish to propose. It relates to the ceiling on othe" income which the old age and blind pensioners may receive. Prior to August 10 last, the amount of other income which the pensioner could receive was $125 a year, and on that date it was reduced to the sum of $65. On July 24 last year, when the Minister of Finance announced in this house the proposed increase of $5 a month, he made it clear that the government was not raising the $365 ceiling, in other words that the government was actually reducing by $60 the amount of other income which these pensioners might receive. Some of us in this house on that day spent the * whole of our time in that discussion in an appeal to the Minister of Finance to alter that provision before the order in council was passed. When he came to Manitoba last summer in connection with the by-election campaign we
had out there-a very interesting one-I made a public appeal to him over the radio, in view of the fact that this order had not yet been passed,, to reconsider the position he had taken on July 24. But no. The order was passed on August 10. I hope there is no significance in the fact that that was the day after the by-election. The order stuck to the $365 ceiling. This has had an unfortunate and unhappy effect in the experience of many of our old people, and has produced all sorts of complications.
It seems to me it would have been the part of wisdom, and surely the part of generosity, for the government at that time to raise the ceiling, at least by the amount it was then raising the maximum pension. When the minister spoke of this increase of $5 a month he said in this house that it would cost $11,398,500, but he pointed out that, the dominion's share being only seventy-five per cent, the dominion would have to be responsible for only $8,548,875. The implication I gathered from the minister's remarks was that this government would, if necessary, be prepared to take care of that amount. However, by reducing from $125 to $65. the amount of other income that old age and blind pensioners can receive, many pensioners were denied the whole increase, and many pensioners were denied any portion of the increase at all. The result, according to the war appropriation bill of this year, is that it requires not $8,548,875 to pay this five dollar increase, but only $6,942,250. In other words the provision for reducing from $125 to $65 a year the amount of other income which a pensioner may receive saved the government $1,556,625. That amount of money is terribly small in so far as the government is concerned, yet it has meant a great loss to the old age pensioners. It is reprehensible that that course of action was taken, and I earnestly hope that the government will give consideration to raising the ceiling at an early date. As a matter of fact I feel that any decent old age pension legislation ought to make provision for old age and blind pensioners to have other income as high as $40 a month. In the meantime, one government that I know of, the government of Manitoba, has indicated that it will make representations to this government to raise the ceiling from $365 to $425 a year. That is little enough to ask for, but I say it is coming as a request from the government of Manitoba. I earnestly hope that the request will be met at an earl}' date by this government.
There are two other points that I wish to speak on, but perhaps at this stage, I should
Old Age and Blind Pensions

move the amendment which I read at the opening of my remarks. I now do so in the words that I used at the time I presented its terms to the house. The amendment is seconded by the hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Maclnnis).
I turn now to the third provision of this amendment, which relates to the question of the pensionable age. It seems to me that the age of seventy is ridiculous. The hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Maclnnis) pointed out on another occasion the only reason he could see for it was that someone drafting this bill must have run across that verse in the ninetieth Psalm which states: "The days of our years are threescore years and ten," and by fixing the age at that point the government would be saved the necessity of paying very much under this bill.


Mr. MacNICOL:: May I say that some
years ago I advocated reducing the age to sixty-five. At the same time I believe the hon. member for Vancouver East or the late member for Winnipeg North Centre introduced it in this house.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I am advised the statement is quite correct, and I am sure the hon. member will welcome the opportunity to support the amendment I have moved.
At the present time it is true that there are many people in the bracket between sixty and seventy who are working at jobs of one kind and another and whose employment is indirectly, and in many cases directly, aiding the war effort. Many of those people would not want to go on old age pension at this time even if it were possible for them to do so. However, there are many in this bracket, particularly in the upper part of it, sixty-five to seventy, who are having a very difficult time to carry on because of the fact that they are denied a pension until they reach the age of seventy. My suggestion is that the age limit should be reduced to sixty, although I have not put a specific figure in the amendment which I have proposed.
I would suggest that all the arguments I have used as to the desirability of our attacking the problem of distribution apply definitely to this phase of the subject, namely, the desirability, of reducing the pensionable age. In addition to the other arguments that have been nut forward I would remind the house that one of the things that will be desirable in the post-war period will be the encouragement of retirements at an earlier age than in the past in order that there may be opportunities for employment of those of younger years.
If the proposal for a reduction of the age to sixty were made at the present time, even

though many would not qualify or want to qualify for a pension right away, there are those, of course, who wouldi do some calculating to try to point out that eventually this suggestion would impose an impossible burden upon the treasury of the country. To anticipate some of those arguments I should like to give a few figures to indicate what it would cost to establish an old age pension of $40 a month, starting at the age of sixty. On March 6, 1939, the then minister of finance, Mr. Dunning, objecting to a proposal which was being made along this line, said that to lower the pensionable age to sixty-five would cost the dominion an additional $19,000,000 a year. He said that to go farther and reduce it to sixty would cost, in addition to that $19,000,000, another $25,000,000; in other words, a total of $44,000,000 a year. Suppose we add to that a little and call it $45,000,000. That is what it would cost to reduce the pensionable age to sixty, leaving the amount at $20 a month. If you increase it to $40 a month, it would cost twice that, namely, $90,000,000. That would represent, however, only the dominion government's seventy-five per cent. Therefore,, one would have to add to that the sum of $30,000,000, which would give you $120,000,000 as the total cost if the federal government paid it all, and if a pension scheme of $40 a month were applied to those: between sixty and seventy.
I would point out that even if all these figures I have quoted were added together, even if all this responsibility were placed on the federal government to provide pensions of $40 a month at age sixty, the increased cost per year would total only $155,000,000. This is $85,000,000 less than the amount by which we are reducing our war expenditures each year. Therefore I seriously suggest these figures of $40 and the age of sixty, not as figures that are high or low, in the hope that some compromise may be reached somewhere in between, but as the minimum amount and the highest age we should be considering in a measure of this kind.
I should like to turn for a few minutes to the-


Thomas Vien: Order. It would have been preferable if the hon. member had moved his amendment at the beginning of his remarks and then I should have been in a position to deal with it, because I must find that the amendment is out of order.
The amendment reads:
That all the %vords after the word "that" to the end of the question be struck out and the following substituted therefor: this house desires to record its opinion that immediate consideration should be given to increasing the amount

Old Age and Blind Pensions
of the old age and blind pension, and also the amount of other income which an old age or blind pensioner may receive; and further, that immediate consideration should be given to lowering the pensionable age, and to a thorough revision of the old age pensions regulations.
It is provided, as the hon. member may see, on page 137 of Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules and Forms, citation 345.
The ancient doctrine that the redress of grievances should be considered before the grant of supplies is maintained in the House of Commons of Canada by the provision of standing order 49 that the motion for the Speaker to leave the chair can be amended; and the amendments need not be relevant but may relate to every question connected with public-administration.
Then I leave out a portion and continue:
Matters of detail which should be discussed in committee cannot be debated on these occasions, nor can debate be permitted relating to grants already agreed to, or to resolutions which will be proposed in the committee, or to items in the estimates.
At page 10 of the estimates I find item 52, dealing with the administration of old age pensions, including pensions to the blind; and there is a further item covering the payment of the dominion's share of such pensions. All the matters now being discussed by the hon. member are relevant to and can be thoroughly discussed on this item in the estimates, and for that reason I must rule that his amendment now, on going into supply, is out of order.


Stanley Howard Knowles: May I speak to the point of order?


Thomas Vien: I have already decided that the amendment is out of order, so that there is no point of order.


Gordon Graydon: Do I understand that this is not debatable by anyone?


Thomas Vien: No.


Stanley Howard Knowles: If I may not speak to the point of order, Mr. Speaker, I take it that I may continue with my remarks on the subject which I raised?


Thomas Vien: I have already decided that the hon. member is discussing a matter which cannot be debated on the motion to go into supply. It is a matter which can be discussed when the proper item in the estimates is before the committee. At that time it can be gone into fully, but in the meantime it is not a proper amendment and I have therefore ruled it out of order.


Major James William Coldwell: Do I understand you, Mr. Speaker, to rule that the discussion of old age pensions is out of order? Before you rule on the point I have just raised may I direct your attention to the fact that when the
estimates are before the committee there is no opportunity to revise or change them. It seems to me that at the moment hon. members are trying to bring to the attention of the government the necessity of doing something in regard to the estimates; and while there is an item in the estimates covering old age pensions, surely the discussion of that subject is not out of order because of that fact. If that is so there is almost nothing that could be discussed on going into supply.


Thomas Vien: Many matters are relevant on going into supply, matters which are urgent and which should be brought to the attention of the government. In the present case, however, the amendment asks that the house record its opinion as to the immediate necessity of increasing the amount of old age and blind pensions. That is a matter which can be discussed when the proper item in the estimates is before the committee; therefore it is not relevant to-day.


Major James William Coldwell: But the discussion on the motion to go into supply is still before the house, I take it?


Thomas Vien: That is so.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Then I should like to continue to speak to the motion to go into supply. You have ruled my amendment out of order, so that I cannot further speak to it, but I should like to continue to speak to the motion to go into supply.


Thomas Vien: On the same question?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Yes, sir.


Thomas Vien: I have already ruled that this matter cannot be further discussed at this time.


Gordon Graydon: On the point of order, Mr. Speaker-


Thomas Vien: There is no point of order.


Major James William Coldwell: I did not hear what was said by the leader of the opposition (Mr. Gray don).


Gordon Graydon: I did not get a chance to say anything; I tried to sit down as gracefully as possible under very extraordinary circumstances.


Thomas Vien: There is no point of order. Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?
Mr. Mac.INNIS: Do I understand, Mr. Speaker, that I can continue with a discussion of the question of old age pensions on the motion to go into supply?
1412	COMMONS
Beer-Removal oj Federal Restrictions


Thomas Vien: No. I understood the hon. member for York-Sunbury (Mr. Hanson) wished to speak on the motion to go into supply, and I have no desire to deprive him of that opportunity, but at the moment he is not in his seat.



BEER-REMOVAL OF FEDERAL RESTRICTIONS OF SUPPLIES TO PROVINCES

John Horne Blackmore: Before you leave the chair, Mr. Speaker, I should like to refer to the statement made to-day by the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King), in the course of which he said that the provinces had cooperated with the dominion very enthusiastically up to the present time. I know he wishes that happy condition to continue, and consequently I believe he should have two or three matters brought to his attention.
In regard to the disagreement between the province of Alberta and the dominion as regards liquor there are two important statements about which I think the Prime Minister would be glad to hear. The first of these was issued on March 8, and appears in the Edmonton Bulletin of March 9. It is by Mr. J. A. King, chairman of the Alberta liquor control board, in reference to the statement by the Minister of National Revenue (Mr. Gibson), to which the Prime Minister referred. Mr. J. A. King said:
We certainly took all we could possibly buy. It is true that some of the distillers were unable to give us the full allotment to which we were entitled.
As the Prime Minister will recognize, that completely takes the sting out of the statement by the Minister of National Revenue (Mr. Gibson) that Alberta had not taken its full quota of liquor. Now we learn that Alberta took all the liquor it could get from the distillers, and that it could not get enough to fill its quota.
The second statement to which I should like to refer appears in the same issue of the Bulletin-, it is by Hon. S. E. Low, and I am sure the Prime Minister will be glad to have it on record because it will put that statesman in the right light. The Minister of National Revenue stated that the contention that the eastern provinces had been tipped off was without foundation. In reply Mr. Low repeats the statement made by Mr. J. A. King, that the province bought all it could and that the distillers could not provide any more liquor although Alberta could have used more. Then Mr. Low goes on to say: fMr. Maclnnis.]
Mr. Gibson's answer is most unsatisfactory. He still has to answer why the government selected October 31, 1942, as the end of the base year, and why it made the order retroactive to that date, when it was not issued until January, 1943, and also why even after the order came into effect, Ontario and Quebec could allow so much more liquor to permittees than we could. [DOT]
The Prime Minister can see that this indicates one cause of the disagreement which should be ironed out between the dominion and the province. Then Mr. Low continues:
The answer is quite clear. Ontario and Quebec knew the restrictions were coming up, and we certainly didn't. The people in the east were given every chance to buy up the liquor.
I am sure the Prime Minister would wish to have knowledge of these statements in order that the difficulties between the dominion and the province may be resolved. I should like to assure the right hon. gentleman that the government of Alberta is desirous of cooperating with the federal government in every respect; they have no desire for any friction or lack of harmony and are just as eager to have the war conducted in an efficient way as anyone could be.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am pleased to have the assurance my hon. friend has just given. I do not question it at all; but if I caught aright the last sentence or two of what he has just read it was to the effect that Quebec knew about certain restrictions which were coming, and that Alberta did not. That is the sort of thing to which I take very strong exception. No province in this country had any intimation, as against information other provinces would have, with regard to what was to be done in respect of the restrictions made on the supply or sale of alcoholic beverages. It is the endeavour in certain quarters, every now and then to create a certain prejudice against both the government and Quebec, by referring to Quebec as though in some way it had been specially favoured, which makes difficulty in the country. I hope it will not be repeated. Perhaps what I have said to-day, or rather what the government has done to-day, may in that regard remove one of the possibilities of further repetition.


John Horne Blackmore: I think the Prime Minister will grant that when government officials have a certain view, it is a very good thing to give open expression to that view, so that the matter may be cleared up.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


John Horne Blackmore: I think the Prime Minister will agree that Mr. Low is perfectly

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frank. If he does not understand correctly, the matter can be taken up with him.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That is right.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee of supply, Mr. McCann in the chair.
DEPARTMENT OF FISHERIES 69. Departmental administration, $151,660. Item stands.
DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR 100. Departmental administration, $387,318. Item stands.
Progress reported.



INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT BANK


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Friday, March 10, consideration of the motion of the Minister of Finance for the second reading of bill No. 7, to incorporate the industrial development bank.
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, I had not anticipated speaking again quite so soon, because I thought I had raised a subject on which other hon. members would be sure to speak, if given the opportunity. However, having moved the adjournment of this debate on Friday evening there are a few observations I should like to make.
Many hon. members who have spoken thus far in the debate have stated that they are prepared to support the principle of the bill, but that they have certain misgivings as to some of its details. My purpose in' speaking is to state as clearly as I can the principle I am prepared to support in agreeing to its second reading. Then I should like to point out as clearly as I can the misgivings I have or, in other words, the reasons for my fear that the bill in its present form will not give full effect to the desirable principles upon which I believe it is based.
Before indicating what I believe to be the principles of the bill, may I say a word as to its effect? As I see it, the effect is to permit the Bank of Canada to engage in a function hitherto not allotted to it. It strikes me a certain amount of confusion has developed through the growing multiplicity of banking and financial institutions. In addition to the chartered banks in Canada we have the Bank of Canada. Now we are to have the industrial development bank; and the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance has indicated that later on there will be something of a banking or financial nature for the assistance of agriculture and, later on perchance to assist in housing development.
This multiplicity is confusing; but needlessly so, for actually in all these banks or financial institutions of a government character we just have different functions of one banking and financial set-up. In other words, if these measures are put through we will have a government bank engaged in various functions. To my mind this confusion emphasizes the need of our establishing one nationally owned and publicly controlled banking system, as an instrument of a national investment policy.
I said I was going to try to state clearly what I believe to be the principle of the bill, and I am prompted to do so because I have heard many hon. members say they are supporting the principle, without defining the principle they are supporting. As I see it, the principle is that a public authority, under the control of the parliament of Canada, should have the say as to the kinds of activity in which at least a portion of industry will engage, or that there should be established a public authority under the control of the parliament of Canada with power to give effect to the necessary financial arrangements to make possible the kinds of industrial activity parliament regards as being socially desirable.
With that principle we in this group heartily agree. In fact we would point out that if to some extent we had not been acting upon that principle we would never have been able to achieve the vast production Canada has achieved during the course of the war. During the war years the government has stepped in and has effected the financial arrangement necessary to make possible, whether it was economic or otherwise, the production of aircraft, guns and tanks, and all the equipment necessary to fight a war. The government has taken the position that these things had to be produced. It has said that our man-power should be applied to our raw materials so as to bring about the greatest volume of war production. The job of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley) has been simply to effect the financial arrangements to make these things possible.
I repeat that we have had affirmed during the course of this war the carrying out of the principle that underlies, shall I say, or rather that is hidden in this bill, for incidentally that is one of my complaints, that while the principle is there it is almost smothered. We contend that without this principle we could not have achieved the vast volume of production which is to Canada's credit in the course

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of this war, and that equally without this principle we cannot, win the peace. By that I mean that without our setting up a public authority with power to decide in the name of the people the kind of industrial activity in which Canada is to engage we shall not be able to produce the vast quantities of peacetime civilian goods that we need to provide full employment and an adequate standard of living for our people in the postwar period.
Some have said during the course of this debate that we should not worry any more about the problem of production. It has been argued that that problem has been, solved. I do not altogether agree. I believe the war has shown that we can solve the problem of production when we are faced with an allpowerful requirement which we are prepared to try to meet. But that does not mean that automatically when the war is over we shall go on producing in the volume in which we are producing at the present time. We shall be able to continue producing in such huge quantities after the war only if there is the same will to produce in these quantities, and only if we are prepared at that time to effect the necessary financial arrangements.
Therefore I contend that even as during the progress of the war the financial job of this government has been to effect the necessary financial arrangements to enable the production of war goods, so after the war parliament and the government through a public authority must continue to control the direction of investment, must continue to have a definite^ say as to the kind of things that industry is to produce.
' It is also true, as others have pointed out in this debate and as I myself pointed out earlier to-day, that it is necessary to tackle the problem of distribution. We must not think we have solved the problem if we simply do something about the problem of production. We must also get purchasing power into the hands of all our people to enable them to purchase the goods they are capable of producing and are anxious to produce. And so, Mr. Speaker, I affirm my belief in this basic principle that the control of investment, the planning of investment, the effecting of financial arrangements so as to get the socially desirable goods produced is not only a good thing but terribly necessary to our welfare in the post-war period.
Oddly enough, the strongest objections to this principle, if I have heard aright, have come from Liberal members, who for the most part have contended that they were supporting the principle of this bill. They did not say that they were attacking the principle of the bill. They chose, however, to take this debate as an opportunity to attack some of

the policies of this group, and in so doing they have attacked the principle of this bill. We have heard language such as this: We do not want our banking and financial institutions run by politician,?, or by a government monopoly. I say frankly that I find it difficult to understand members of parliament rising in their places and complaining about politicians or speaking about governments doing their duty. If there are members of this house who feel that politics is not one of .the highest forms of social effort and public service they can follow whatever course suits them, but for my part, not only is politics a very high endeavour, but I see it as the people doing their own business. The alternative to politics and the science of government, to democracy as we know it and as we in this group want to extend it, is control of our life economically and otherwise by a few. As matters now stand, there are many things that we politicians so-called, we who are engaged in politics and the science of government, control. We in this parliament, have the say over such matters as war and peace, public health, taxation, housing, justice, labour relations and a whole host of other subjects which come before us during the course of the months that we are in session. Yet though it is felt that we in parliament are competent through the medium of politics and the science of government to control these things in the interests of the people as a whole, the minute the question of business and industry, the question of our economic life, is posed by some of us as a sphere in which the people's representatives Should have a say, tip goes the cry: Don't let the politicians get in there. It is a nice bit of phraseology to use, but it sidesteps the fact that the alternative is to allow a few people-we sometimes call them, and rightly, I think, a few big shots-to control things that are basic to the life of the country as a whole. I refer to our economic affairs, the arranging of our economic life, basic as it is to the amount of money the people will have to live on, to the amount of food they will have to eat and the kind of homes they will live in-everything relating to the life of our people. I suggest that economics, business and industry are just as important to our eleven or twelve million people as are the things which we recognize as matters with which this parliament is competent to deal-perhaps even more important, and I feel that if we are going to carry out the basic principles of democracy we should extend the control of the people into the whole sphere of economics and industry.
That is the reason I am in support of what I have tried to indicate is the principle of this bill, because it seems to me .that this

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principle calls for an extension of the idea that a public authority under the control of parliament should have the say as to the kind of things that industry is to produce. We feel in this group that industry should produce, not for profit to a few individuals, but the things that are socially desirable and necessary for the community as a whole. That is what we have been doing in the war. We have seen to it that there shall be effected the economic arrangements necessary for the producing of guns, planes and tanks, the setting up of air training schools on the bald prairie far away from city services of one bind and another, and so on. We have seen to it that these things are done because we felt it was for the good of the community as a whole, namely, for the defence of the country in this time of war.
Similarly, we feel that when peace comes we should have the power as a parliament, as a government, on behalf of the people to effect financially the production in industry of the things which are socially desirable for the community as a whole. I want to decry not onljr the kind of talk which deprecates governmental activity in the economic sphere, but also the charge that the sort of thing which is proposed in this bill is in any sense a form of dictatorship because the government would have some control over matters relating to industry and finance. It is dictatorship when the few are able to control industry, are able to control finance, are able to decide that funds will be invested where profit is to be made, say in luxury goods, rather than in goods which are socially necessary and desirable for the community as a whole. But when the people through their parliament, through their government, set up a public authority which decides in the interests of the people that socially desirable goods should be produced, that is not dictatorship, it is an extension of the principle of democracy which I feel is one of the things we are fighting for at the present time.
I said earlier that not only was I going to indicate what I believe to be the principle of this bill, and what I mean when I say that I am supporting the principle by agreeing to its second reading, but that I would try to point out what I regard as some of its weaknesses, some of the reasons for my fear that the bill in its present form will not give full effect to this very commendable principle.
First, there is the fact that the bill gives the industrial development bank, or shall I say, the industrial development wicket of the Bank of Canada, no power of issue. To my way of thinking, and as other hon. members who have spoken have pointed out, that is a serious shortcoming.
Secondly, I would point out that the amount of money to be provided under the terms of this bill for industrial development is hopelessly inadequate to meet the problem which it proposes to attack, namely, that of sufficient assistance in post-war production to maintain a high level of economic activity, a high level of industrial production. As hon. members know in general terms, there has been a tremendous increase in the value of our national production during the course of the war. According to an answer to questions by the hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Maclnnis) to be found on Hansard of March 2, page 1,086, the gross value of our national production in 1938 was a little over $5,000,000,000. In 1943, according to information on the same page, the gross value of our national production was something over $10,000,000,000. In other words, from 1938, the last full year before the war, to 1943 our production has been doubled. If one had the figures to make a comparison between 1943 and 1933 I am sure one would find that the production had been trebled in that ten-year-period.
What was it that made possible the doubling of our national production from 1938 to 1943? There were a number of factors. The huge expenditures of the government in the purchase of war supplies and providing uniforms and pay and allowances and food and care for our people in uniform-all helped. Another factor which, I feel, was of importance was the amount of money which the governments of the United Kingdom and Canada made available by way of capital assistance to Canadian industry, I hold in my hand a copy of Votes and Proceedings of March 26 last year. It contains amongst other things a statement by the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe) as to the amount of capital assistance to Canadian industries by the British and Canadian governments up to December 31, 1942. I point out that that is quite a long time ago; I have not been able to get any figures later than these, but if such figures are available they will probably be a great deal larger than the figures I have here. According to the information from which I am quoting, the total capital assistance at that time amounted to $1,723,827,099. I suggest that that amount of seventeen hundred million dollars of capital assistance by governments to Canadian industries was a quite important factor in bringing about this level of production in 1943 of ten thousand million dollars.
It is admitted by hon. members on all sides of the house that one of our real jobs in the post-war period is to maintain the present level of production. That will involve a great
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deal of changing over of plants from what they are doing now to other kinds of activity for peace-time needs. It will involve the building of new plants to meet other needs and provide for employment if we are to maintain this level of production. I point out that whereas it took more than 11,700,000,000 to do that only up to the end of 1942, the present bill provides the terribly inadequate figure of only $100,000,000. Thus, even if one takes into consideration all the additional money that the bank can get by the sale of bonds, debentures, et cetera, I point out that the present provision is only one seventeenth of the figure that I have quoted from the Minister of Munitions and Supply.
Another shortcoming of this bill as I see it is that it takes this very commendable and desirable principle of a public authority having something to say about effecting the financial arrangements which will make possible the producing of socially desirable goods, but introduces it only into one small end of our industrial setup, only into the end which is regarded as unprofitable and not capable of drawing investment from other sources. I hope, and that is my reason for giving support to the principle of this bill, that the day is not far distant when we shall extend the principle which is now being introduced into one small end of our industrial set up into the whole of our industrial picture, that we shall have a national financial setup, based upon principles of economic planning, to take the initiative and see to it that there is produced in Canada the kind of thing which is socially desirable, the kind of thing which is necessary to provide a high level of economic activity such as we have now and a high standard of living such as our people deserve in the post-war period.
Again, I feel about this bill that it to a large extent nullifies the principle which underlies it, by continuing the principle of interest, of huge debt which will be piled up and which, as I see it, will take away from the benefit that might otherwise be enjoyed from the principle of economic planning, the principle of a public authority effecting the necessary financial arrangements to provide for socially desirable production.
I am disturbed by the sections of the bill which provide for the continuance of the whole idea of private profit to be made out of this investment, even in this supposedly public authority, by virtue of the other seventy-five per cent of these assets which will be acquired through the sale of bonds and debentures.
. 
I contend, therefore, that this bill in its present form, based though it is on a principle that is not only good but highly necessary in the post-war period, will fall so far short of realizing the potentialities involved in it that I dare to hope that in the committee a great many changes will be made in it. It is because this bill will not give full effect to the possibilities involved, and to the principle upon which it is based, that some of us have the fear that it is simply a case of borrowing a good principle but distorting its purpose from that of the total social good, to simply salvaging the present economic system. I submit that is not good enough in these times, and certainly it is not good enough for the postwar period.
Our job is not simply to try to buttress one system or another but to tackle the problem of replacing the four or five billion dollars' worth of war production in -which we are engaged at the present time with four or five billions or even more per annum of peace-time production when the war is over. There is no time to lose. What we need is a nationally owned bank capable of doing this kind of thing. What we need is a broad investment policy, vested in a public authority under the control of parliament, with the power to effect financial arrangements so as. to make possible the production of an additional four or five billions a year, or more, of peace-time goods.
In my opinion, as I have said, the principle underlying the bill is not only good but is terribly necessary for the post-war period, and I earnestly hope that when it goes to the committee changes will be made in it to bring that principle out from the restrictions which now all but smother it and to give fuller effect to its possibilities.


Mr. W. F. KUHL (Jasper-Edson):: My colleagues the hon. member for Lethbridge (Mr. Blackmore) and the hon. member for Acadia (Mr. Quelch), I believe, adequately set forth the attitude of the social credit members toward this bill; consequently all I wish to do, in the few words I shall contribute this afternoon, is to refer to some of the fundamental economic principles that have been referred to by members on both sides of the house with regard to the principles and objectives involved in this bill.
This bill and others of a similar kind seem to me to be designed to stimulate production, the whole purpose being to increase the amount of goods we shall have available, and I think the remarks which were made by the

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hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard (Mr. MeGeer), in his excellent speech, with most of which I heartily agree, as well as some of the remarks made by other hon. members including the leader of the opposition (Mr. Graydon), should receive careful consideration. They stated that the real problem with which we shall be confronted in the post-war world will be one not so much of production as of ability to consume. When they drew attention to that fact they drew attention to what will be the real problem once we endeavour to revamp our peace-time economy.
That thought brings us back to some of the fundamental principles which I believe we shall have to keep in mind if we are to come to logical conclusions as to what we are going to do. I agree completely with the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard and the leader of the opposition when they say that we shall have to tackle the problem of consumption or to devise ways and means to enable the people to consume the production of the country up to the limit of their desires to consume.
While I agree with the point of view expressed by these hon. gentlemen and by others as well, I did observe that they did not follow up their statements to indicate in what manner consumption could be stimulated to the point where people would be enabled to purchase all they produce. That is a conspicuous omission.
I wish to call attention again to the point which, in common with the members of my group, I have made repeatedly on the question of production. Those w-ho are responsible for this bill-the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley), if he is responsible, or the assistant to the minister, or any in the department responsible for it-seem to me to assume that all that needs to be done to have a balanced economy is to set up a business, to finance that business undertaking, to get it going, and automatically it will take care of itself, automatically purchasing power will come forth from that industry sufficient to enable the people to buy what they have produced. But that is the very point wherein the endeavour that will be made to carry out the objectives of the bill will fail, as it failed prior to the outbreak of the war.
As I have indicated again and again, what we have to reconcile ourselves to is the fact that no individual industry-and the same is true of all industry collectively-ever issues in the course of production an amount of purchasing power sufficient to buy back its own product. As the hon. member for Lethbridge pointed out in his speech, in the thirties, before the war broke out, we had no problem of production. There was nothing wrong with
our ability to produce the goods we desired. We had, on every hand, goods of every type which -the people had any desire to consume. Goods were there either actually or potentially, but what was lacking was effective demand in the hands of the people to buy the product.
The same situation will certainly obtain when once the war is over and the government is no longer the greatest purchaser of the products of industry. We shall again be back to the position where the value of the total production of consumable goods will be far in excess of the total amount of money which the people will have as a consequence of assisting in making that production. I believe that is an aspect of our economic system which certainly will have to be investigated by the committee when it studies the proposals in this bill, as well as any other of a similar nature which may be introduced later. I believe the members of this house must take this point into consideration, investigate it, draw their own conclusions on it and then act accordingly.
There is another angle that must be considered. I, as well as other members of my group, have referred to it again and again. It is stated that we must sustain our national income at a high level and provide full employment if we are to have a set of conditions to our liking. I do not wish to repeat all the arguments I have advanced in the past with regard to the question of full employment; but as long as the government or individuals in the opposition, or professors of economics outside of the house, or individuals anywhere, continue to contend that the purpose of the economic system is employment and jobs, I feel obliged to continue to raise objections to that idea and principle. The hon. member for Vancouver East (Mt. Maclnnis) in speaking on this bill last Friday evening said, as he has done on many previous occasions along with others of his group, that private enterprise had failed to feed, clothe and shelter the people. Private enterprise is held responsible for providing jobs, for maintaining full employment, for keeping people at work. I think that is an issue which we shall have to discuss in this house more extensively than we have in the past. I consider it basic and fundamental. Thus far neither the government nor the opposition and many others throughout the nation have come to a logical conclusion as to the purposes of the economic system. I wish to reassert, as I have done on many previous occasions, that as long as we insist that the purpose of the economic system is to provide jobs rather than goods, we shall never solve
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our problem. I repeat that it is not the purpose of private enterprise or government enterprise, if you wish, or enterprise of any kind, to find jobs. The only legitimate function of the economic system is to produce goods and to produce them abundantly. Our banking system and our banking policy should be aimed with that object in mind.


George Hugh Castleden: How about distributing them?


Walter Frederick Kuhl: That is the real problem. That is the problem on which we ought to be concentrating our efforts. The orthodox economist holds that industry produces sufficient purchasing power through production to distribute its own goods. That is a false premise. I have placed the figures on the records in the past; I can do so again to-day. But it does not seem to make much difference whether one substantiates his contention with figures or not. They are not accepted. I am satisfied that if individuals, members of this house and all those interested in economics, will examine the balance sheet of any individual company, or examine the aggregate of the balance sheets of all companies, they will discover that industry is not self-liquidating and that, no matter how much production you have, the people are never able to buy the total product of industry with the purchasing power which is paid out in the course of the production. Therefore that leaves us to consider methods of accomplishing the distribution. which is a problem to which the leader of the opposition and the hon. member for Yancouver-Burrard pointed out, but indicated no way in which this could be achieved.


Mr. FAIR:: John Bracken does not know.


Walter Frederick Kuhl: Therefore I say that instead of concentrating our efforts on devising legislation and concentrating our thoughts on amending legislation designed to stimulate production we ought to be concentrating our efforts on ways and means of stimulating consumption; for I am completely satisfied that if consumption is taken care of, production will automatically take care of itself. Take care of consumption and production will take care of itself.
In conclusion, I wish to remind the house once more that we shall reach no logical and sound conclusion as to how we shall bring about distribution unless we examine carefully the relationship of the income of the people to the value of the production which they are expected to buy. I wish to remind hon. members we shall also have to concentrate our attention on the question of the 
substitution of power machinery for human effort. I am perfectly convinced that we are not logical if we contend that we can have both jobs and machinery. We cannot have both. If we are to use the power machines, then we certainly must reduce the amount of man-hours on the work.


James Lester Douglas: Or produce more goods and raise the standard of living.


Walter Frederick Kuhl: There is plenty produced as it is.


James Lester Douglas: Oh, no.


Walter Frederick Kuhl: We are told that if we use the machinery of production that existed in 1929 it is capable of producing an income of $4,400 worth of consumable goods for every family of four in the United States; and that is without any additional plant equipment. That is certainly far in excess of what the people had been enjoying. Therefore I believe the matter of the constant technological displacement of human labour and the disparity between total income and total prices is something that will have to be taken into consideration when we consider trying to balance our economy by merely stimulating production through the use of a bank such as this bill contemplates.


Mr. J. M. TURNER (Springfield):: I find myself in a difficult position this afternoon. The Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King), having fixed up the beer business, has left me without a subject; nevertheless, I wish to say a few words about the proposed industrial bank. Along with many others in western Canada I have endeavoured from time to time to advance the idea of getting more equal distribution of the industrial business of this nation, particularly in western Canada. On more than one occasion in the past, when dealing with matters of finance, unemployment, relief and so on, we have emphasized this point. Last year in speaking on the budget, as recorded in Hansard for March 18, at page 1384, I said:
I need not remind you, sir, because you have been hehe many years longer than I have, and I have heard it said many times in this chamber, that the west has asked time and time again for more factories, more industrial plants. I mention it now for this reason, that a committee has recently been set up here to study the problems of rehabilitation and reconstruction. Judging from the personnel of that committee, we shall have a progressive and worth-while report on the industrial needs and opportunities of western Canada which will be well studied by that committee. I would refer to the Defence Industries Limited plant near Trans-cona which is in my own riding; T do'not want to see this plant closed down or salvaged

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immediately after the war. The same can be said of many plants all through western Canada. I hope at least to have a chance to obtain for the constituency which I represent some plants for western Canada. In my opinion it would be a shame and a disgrace to see that fine plant, in which two or three thousand men are employed, shut down and those men thrown out of work at the end of the war. I wish to pay tribute to those men for the fine work they are doing in this war effort, because we must remember that they were taken trom the villages, the municipalities and the country; that many of them never saw the inside of a plant before, and that they are doing a splendid job, and it is my pleasure to pay them this little tribute to-night. When the war is over, these men will have had these years of extra experience and be fully prepared and equipped to carry on in similar capacities after the war. Therefore I urge with all the strength I have that that part of western Canada be kept in mind by the committee and the government.
And later on:
There is something not quite right in regard to our western industrial set-up when one considers even casually the immense possibilities for industry in the prairie provinces. Consider it only from the point of view of natural resources; look at what we have to offer industries; coal, timber, oil, the natural gas of Alberta in untold quantities, thousands of units of unharnessed electrical power, minerals of all kinds, and in my own constituency that new chromium deposit now in the experimental stage. It is well advanced; I believe 200 tons have been shipped. If this proves successful, I understand this will be the biggest development in recent years in Manitoba. These are only a few of the many things we have to offer. We have two of the best equipped and managed railways in the world to take care of the needs of industry. Behind all that we have great agricultural production in all its branches, capable of supplying a population five or ten times, possibly fifteen times what we have now. with the finest food this world can produce. There is only one answer, more and more factories because, if you get the factories, you get the population.
As everyone in this house knows, Manitoba and Saskatchewan are now threatened with the loss of seven of their representatives in this parliament, owing mainly to the drift of population from the west to the east which has resulted from the heavy centralization of our war industries in the two eastern central provinces. I believe this measure will help to some extent to overcome that situation, if it is wisely administered and given a real chance to operate. It should also help to prevent large, wealthy corporations from controlling and monopolizing certain lines of industry to the detriment of the whole of Canada, by preventing special privileges of controlling the manufacture and distribution of certain goods in defined areas with no interference or competition whatever. The town of Beausejour, in my constituency, ran into a difficulty of this kind some years ago.
They had a glass factory operating there which was the only industry in that town with the exception of a small brick plant. Naturally this glass factory started out in a small way, but gradually it grew larger. Winnipeg, being nearby, was the chief market for its product. It was not very long, however, before that industry was gobbled up by the big eastern interests. Not only was it closed down the week after that; it was torn down, throwing everybody out of work and forcing the people t/o buy glassware manufactured in other provinces, -while acres of the best glass sand stand idle with a fence round them. The brick plant there also has been torn down. If this act had been in operation at that time the town, in conjunction with some of its enterprising citizens, might have saved those industries. These incidents could be multiplied many times in western Canada. The west has starved for the need of capital. To give another instance, the Tyndall and Garson stone quarries, in my riding, from which the stone used in the interior of this beautiful building was quarried1, have not been operating for about twelve years, and I should think this measure would encourage the reopening of those famous quarries. To illustrate how government and private enterprise can cooperate in establishing factories with genuine benefit to all, I should like to read what I said in this house on April 17, 1939, as reported in Hansard for that year at page 2860. Speaking about the establishment of a sugar-beet industry in western Canada, I said:
I turn now to the subject of sugar-beet and canning factories. Here also we have an opportunity to put many men to work. As I have said before in the house, the Manitoba government has already gone on record as backing the bonds of a sugar-beet factory to the extent of $600,000. I understand a sugar-beet factory will employ about fifty permanent employees, about 250 temporary employees, and also a gre.at many more during the tending operations and at harvest time.
A few years later a group of enterprising, public-spirited Winnipeg business men took advantage of that offer and to-day we have near Winnipeg one of the finest sugar-beet factories in Canada. This is a great help to farmers, workers and consumers alike, particularly during a war period. After the war it will help to stabilize the price of that commodity in the area now served. In my opinion this industrial development bank is definitely a step in the right direction, though I think the $100,009,000 allotted is far too little for the demands that will be made upon it, particularly when we remember that the Canol oil project in the northwest territories has already cost the government of the United States well
Industrial Development Bank

over 1130,000,000. However, I suppose we have to crawl before we can run; and since I believe the principle of the measure is right and sound, certainly I shall give it every support.
Mr. GORDON B. ISNOR (Halifax): Coming as I do from Halifax, Mr. Speaker, I feel that I should take part in this debate if for no other reason than to place on record the part which has been played by Halifax and the merchants of that city in the establishment of the banking system we now enjoy throughout Canada. I do not imagine that many hon. members are familiar with the background of the old Halifax Banking company, but I think we can claim that we have in Halifax the oldest bank building in Canada. In 1812 a building was erected which later housed the old Halifax Banking company, which was formed by a group of Halifax merchants headed by a Mr. Enos Collins. There the first so-called bank was incorporated and carried on for a number of years, until it was taken over by the Canadian Bank of Commerce, if I remember rightly, about 1903. Even after that the bank continued to operate in that building until it was moved to a large new building on George street, some years later. In connection with that bank I remember an incident which has been a topic of conversation in that city for many years. During a circus parade in Halifax thieves entered the bank and committed a robbery. I was inquiring of my colleague from Halifax (Mr. Macdonald) to-day, and he said he thought that robbery took place about fifty years ago. At that time the bank was in charge of Mr. H. A. Fleming, who was later with the bank of Nova Scotia and who recently passed to the great beyond. When one realizes that the Halifax Banking company was organized 132 years ago, or fifty-five years before confederation, he sees that we have a real background, so far as banking history is concerned.
Then there is another feature which I believe brings us in close contact with the present banking system. I refer to the number of men from eastern Canada who have played an important part in what we know as the "big four." Until quite recently we found at the head of the Royal bank Mr. M. W. Wilson, who was a native of Lunenburg. He unis succeeded by Sydney Dobson, also a Nova Scotian, born in Sydney. We have at the head of the bank of Montreal a native of Nova Scotia, in the person of Mr. George W. Spinney, who was born at Yarmouth. Then, heading the bank of Commerce, as president and general manager is Mr. S. H. Logan, who was born at Debert.. Nova Scotia. Then, heading the bank of Nova Scotia is Mr. J. A. McLeod, who is a maritimer.


Mr. BROOKS:: New Brunswick.


Mr. ISNOR:: 
Gordon Benjamin Isnor: Mr. Speaker, before the house rose at six o'clock I was discussing Bill No. 7, an act to incorporate the industrial development bank, and I had outlined Canada's banking system from the early days when a bank was first established in Halifax 132 years ago down through the years and referred to the facilities that were afforded by the eleven private banking institutions existing in Canada to-day, mentioning particularly the facilities extended by the bank branches extending from the Atlantic to the Pacific. I stated that I felt there was a definite place in our economic system for the private bank. I also
stated and I feel that there is a definite place in our commercial life for a bank such as is proposed by this bill which has been introduced and explained in such an able manner by the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Abbott). He outlined the bill in such' a way as to make it clear to us all what facilities would be provided through the medium of this bank in our post-war development. He pointed out that on account of the reconversion of a large number of the present war plants to peace-time activity a bank such as this would be necessary because under our present banking system long-term loans are not made by the private banks today. He also outlined the objects of the bill, with which I shall deal in discussing the bill in a more detailed way and he stated what he felt were objects of a worth-while nature.
When I was dealing with the issue of bank notes, I mentioned that there had been a' gradual reduction in the amount and number of bank notes in circulation after the establishment of the Bank of Canada, the reduction being from something like $135,000,000 to $42,000,000 at the present time.
I should like to point out in connection with our banking system extending over a period of 132 years, particularly to those members who sometimes question whether private enterprise has served this country properly, that during the past sixty years not a single dollar has been lost to any banknote holder in the dominion. That is an interesting fact which speaks well for the integrity of the banks and the experience of the men at their heads and the manner in which they have carried on this important branch of our financial and commercial life.
One feature of a bank's activities that we are apt sometimes to overlook is the great part which the banks have played in Canada's war effort. I do not know just what we would have done in Canada if we had not had a banking system such as we have extending from the Atlantic to the Pacific and serving every little hamlet and every district in our vast domain. The banks have played a very important part particularly in the victory loan campaigns, when they have placed their whole organization at the disposal of the Canadian government to serve the public in the best possible manner. The banks have taken orders for victory bonds, given information and advice to their customers as to the manner in which they should subscribe, and also have assisted them from time to time in financing their loans. Because of the experience and resources and organization of these banks I believe that thousands and thousands of people in this country invested in ths
Industrial Development Bank

recent victory loan who would not otherwise have bought victory bonds, and in that way the banks have helped the war effort. They have also played an important part in selling war savings certificates, as well as in the larger effort of selling victory loan bonds.
The banks have also established branches in a large number of the camps throughout this country, thus making it possible for men in the armed forces to enjoy the same banking facilities that would be open to them in civilian life in the cities and towns. Many members of the armed services were thus able to purchase victory bonds.
From a commercial and business point of view the banks are also doing a great service. It does not matter whether one is in business in a large or small way. Once he has established his business connection he can go to .the bank and arrange, alter a purchase of goods, to accept a draft in payment of the goods with the least possible trouble. I do not know just what our commercial progress would have been had we not had at our disposal the banking facilities provided by the eleven private banks throughout Canada.
I stated and I wish to repeat that I am in favour of a banking system such as we have in Canada. I feel that it has served our commercial economy in a very, very satisfactory manner. I also feel that the Bank of Canada, established as it was not as a private bank but rather to regulate the activities of the chartered banks, has done excellent service. I also believe that the proposed industrial development bank or loan company, if you wish to call it that, will perform a very useful service in the postwar period.
I do not wish to discuss details, because we are now discussing the general principle of the bill and the details can be considered when the bill is taken up in committee clause by clause. I must say, however, that the objects of-the bill as outlined by the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance should1 in my opinion not only include loans for the purpose of building ships but, as was suggested by the hon. member for Queens-Lunenburg (Mr. Kinley), also provide means for their operation. I have particularly in mind, as no doubt the hon. member for Queens-Lunenburg had, the fishing fleets and the larger type of ship that operates on the Atlantic coast. Just as we provide funds for the earning on of agricultural operations, I believe that funds should be made available by this new bank to assist the fishing industry to carry on its operations on both east and west coasts, thereby adding to the wealth of our dominion.

Dealing more particularly with the bill, I observe that the objective underlying the setting up of the bank is to make credit available to industrial enterprises, which means a business carrying on the manufacture, processing or refrigeration of any goods, wares and merchandise, or the building of ships or vessels, or the generating or distributing of electricity. That is a fairly wide scope, but I would commend to the thought of the parliamentary assistant that he should enlarge it so as to take care of the fishing industry.
I am in accord with the hon. member for Springfipld (Mr. Turner) who, speaking before six o'clock, questioned the adequacy of the amount. The provisions of the bill call for a capitalization of $25,000,000, of which $10,000,000 is to be paid up, and three times the amount of $25,000,000 to be issued in the way of bonds, which would place at the disposal of the bank, if the capital is fully subscribed, something like $100,000,000. I am just a little concerned as to whether this bill will be sufficient to meet the requirements of our post-war era, because it has been stated time and time again that the purpose of the government is to ensure the provision of employment for all. It may be that $100,000,000 will be too small an amount, and I question whether it is wise to limit it to the figure mentioned in the bill.
There is another feature to which reference has been made by at least one other speaker; and although it may be regarded as a matter of detail to be considered by the committee, it is open to criticism whether, by there not being provided a ceiling or limit to loans, the full amount might not be taken up by fifty or one hundred large manufacturers, and thus many others who would like to take advantage of the provision would find that the amount provided for had already been taken up. I suggest that hon. members should consider that question when the bill reaches the committee stage.
There is one feature which I would draw to the particular attention of an hon. member who spoke the other evening. He said that the facilities provided in this bill are also provided by private banking institutions and that they can make long-term borrowings. I think it is definitely stated in the Bank Act that loans shall be of a liquid nature, and that no loan shall be made on real estate. I am pleased to note that in this measure, apart from long-term borrowings or loans, there is a definite provision for borrowing on real estate.

Industrial Development Bank
I recall the experience about twenty years ago of a young business man in Halifax, and I commend it to the notice of some hon. members who are continually talking against private enterprise and advocating public ownership- which, if there were only one bank, would be a monopoly in the truest sense. This young business man had beeen engaged in business in a certain building in Halifax. He found that the executors of the estate wished to dispose of that property, and a man came from Boston for the purpose of selling the building. Our business man heard about it and interviewed the representative of the executors. He procured a forty-eight hour option, and his next worry was as to where he was to get the money to purchase the building. He felt that, having learned the business and having earned, as he thought, the right to stay there, he should make every effort to maintain his stand in that particular section of the city. It was on a Friday, after banking hours, that he called on his banker and made a request for a certain amount of money. That particular bank manager could not see his way clear to advance the necessary funds. What did the young man do? He was a little disappointed for a few moments, until he realized that there were other banks which could be approached. The following morning he turned his attention to another banking institution and the necessary funds were made available from that source. Therefore I say that, with our eleven separate private banking institutions operating throughout Canada, any person who can present a good claim and has a clear background can obtain the assistance which will enable him, provided he has the ability, to make a success of his business. I contend that those who advocate doing away with our present banking system and embarking on a wholly publicly owned policy would do well to reflect upon the splendid record of our private banking institutions, which have carried on over the last 132 years.
Other features of this bill, Mr. Speaker, I should like to mention in passing. I have referred to long-term loans, which we do not have an opportunity to enjoy under our present system. I have referred to the amount of capital; I have mentioned the matter of the building of ships. I believe I have covered the main purposes of this measure. I believe in the principle as outlined in the bill, and that it will certainly help Canada to bring into effect post-war activities which should take care of the employment problem to a very large extent.	*
In closing, let me reiterate that I agree with those who favour a banking system such as we
have to-day. I agree that there is a place for public ownership. But I am satisfied that, as we have competition between the Canadian National Railways and the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, between the privately-owned radio stations and the publicly-owned radio system, so we must have competition between the private banks and the public banks if we are to have that keen rivalry which makes for the maximum of efficiency.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Mr. Speaker, I can heartily endorse what the hon. member (Mr. Isnor) who has just taken his seat has said about the Canadian banking system. He paid it a well-deserved tribute. Our money is perfectly safe in the hands of the present banks throughout Canada. I endorse also what he said as he resumed his seat, that this proposed bank, if it carries out what I interpret from the bill to be its purpose, will to a large extent act as a competitor of the present banking system.
I am not on the banking and commerce committee, but if I were I would feel grateful to most, I should say all, of the members who have participated in this debate. I do not endorse what all of them have said, but I endorse a great deal, and so far as that which I do not endorse is concerned, if I were a member of the committee it would be like a watch-dog.
Most hon. members who have spoken have proceeded along two or three different lines. Some have made the burden of their remarks the fact, as they say, that the establishment of the bank would result an decentralization. I am afraid very few understand what decentralization would mean in business. For instance, how could you decentralize the steel company in Sydney, Nova Scotia? I do not think it could be done. AVhen big manufacturing concerns are established they take into consideration all the factors-where the raw product comes from, where power is to be obtained, the market, and so on-and then they decide, with all these factors before them, exactly where to set up their business. I do not believe it would be possible to decentralize the Ontario hydro electric commission, because they produce vast quantities of power where a vast volume of water is obtainable. There are perhaps businesses that could be decentralized, but most folks talking about decentralization either have not had much experience in business or do not fully appreciate the ramifications of the term.
I am going to direct most of my remarks to the second section entitled "interpretation", and specifically, indeed almost wholly, to the words "generating or distributing of electricity is carried on". Much has been said in this

Industrial Development Bank
debate about starting business, and I believe that if the bank is properly operated it can serve a purpose in setting business in motion. However, one fundamental that lies at the bottom of any manufacturing business is power; so thait in starting up businesses throughout the country I hope-at any rate I am going to interpret the measure in such a way as to warrant the hope-that this bank will permit, of assistance to provincial governments or to private power companies to enable them to produce power on a large scale. If this is done throughout the country new businesses can be set up, and there should be thousands of them when the war is over, so that those who wish to invest money, including the bank itself, will at least have the fundamental, which is cheap power, to start with.
I a.m glad to say that in Ontario our great hydro electric power commission, of which we in this province are all proud, and to which the province owes in largest measure its great industrial development, is ready to take advantage of any business being offered where power is required.
Most hon. members know that not so long ago, last summer I believe it was, the DeCew falls power plant was opened in the Niagara peninsula. I do not know what would have happened to a great number of businesses had that power plant not been put in operation. If tills bank does not provide for the production of power under this clause, then it will lose much of its possible use from my point of view. I repeat, I do not know what would have happened had it not been for the DeCew power plant.
What has happened recently in northwestern Ontario? An iron mine is to be put in operation. There was a power plant not far from the mine, on a river that had to be diverted. The water had to be allowed to go from its reservoir. I believe the plant was generating 10,000 horse-power. It belonged to the Ontario and Minnesota Pulp and Paper Company, which was a power-producing concern also. Fortunately the Ontario hydro electric commission was able to purchase the immediate power rights of the concern by being able to deliver 10,000 horse-power to the said company by merely installing one more generator on the Nipigon river at Alexander Falls.
I should like to see other provinces placed in the same position. I am one of those who believe that the more business there is in a province, the more manufacturing companies that are set up in that province, the better it will be for all the other provinces.
I cannot for a moment subscribe to the assertion that by advocating, as I do, the production of power in other provinces and

the introduction of more business in those provinces, this will take business away from Ontario. I believe that, on the contrary, it would greatly increase the business activities of Ontario. I want to be in a position, therefore, to help other provinces to get on their feet, as in these two instances I have mentioned'.
The Ontario hydro electric commission at the moment is developing, from its own plants, 1,630,000 horse-power. That is a large volume of power to be developed by a power commission belonging to a province. It buys another 910,000 horse-power. It has, therefore, under its control a total of 2,540,,000 horse-power, so that it is in a position to take advantage of the supply of power to companies wishing to start up if the bank will advance the money. Outside Quebec, what other province is in, that position? Quebec has a great deal of power which is produced cheaply. I should like to see the maritime provinces enabled to deliver [DOT] power in large blocks and cheaply, and if the province of New Brunswick, for example, is not able to do this from its power plant on the St. John river at Grand Falls, I should like to know why it is not. Perhaps this bank might come to the rescue of whoever controls that power plant at Grand Falls by bringing about some agreement with our cousins to the south so that the head waters of the St. John river could be stored in reservoirs to provide a large source of power. If that were done New Brunswick would have more cheap power and on a larger scale, and many industries could be started in that province. So far as the Petitcodiac power potentiality is concerned, I dt>
not know what development could take place there. That is a tidal proposal which has been mentioned for many years. I do not know of any tidal electric power plant of any magnitude anywhere. I believe there is a small one in Nova Scotia, but what I am thinking of is a large plant that could deliver large volumes of power, and if Petitcodiac can be developed, so much the better.
Those who have been observing the advertisements of the Ontario hydro electric commission will know that they are right up to the minute in preparations for delivering vast volumes of cheap power and circulating it throughout the province. They have at present 120,000 users in rural communities, of whom 65,000 are farmers. That places the farmers in a position to enter into many little industries in the rural areas to make material they could sell. Why should not every other province be placed in the same position with regard to cheap power? I con-

Industrial Development Bank
tend they should be. This bank may enable them or their power commissions to get into that position. I hope it will. They will then be in a position to start thousands and thousands of businesses, which they could not start in any other way; because anybody entering into a business wants to know, first, the cost of power; second, where are the raw products; third, where are the markets and fourth, where can the operators be obtained to work the plants, big or small? Ontario is in that position. The Ontario . hydro electric power commission is in a position to deliver any amount of power to thousands of small businesses which I hope will start up as a result, not particularly of the amount of money mentioned in this bill, because I take that only as a start. If 1100,000,000 can be voted this year there is no reason why the bank could not expand and be voted another 8100,000,000 next year, and continue in that way from one year to another. After all, 8100,000.000 will not go very far in thousands of industries. We have to be in a position to have thousands of industries to take care of our great heroes when they come back from overseas.
The Ontario hydro electric power commission has cut down the price of power delivered to the farmers until to-day a farmer can buy 420 kilowatt hours in three months for 810.68. In some of the small communities many people will be able to operate a one-eighth horse-power motor, or a one-quarter horse-power motor, or a one-half horse-power motor and make many things and be monarchs of all they survey. There are dozens of people, with many of whom I am acquainted, who make things and sell many small products to the big stores and others throughout Canada. There is no reason why we should not have thousands of new industries established throughout the country, but we must first have cheap power. Ontario is in a position to increase its power production very rapidly to a very large volume. It could increase it another million. There is a plant about to be established on the Ottawa river, not far from [DOT] here-the name has slipped my mind for the moment-where they are making preparations to produce another 400,000 horse-power. At many other points Ontario is in a position to do that. That is in addition to the proposed development of 1,000.000 horse-power on the St. Lawrence waterways. I hope that is carried through. It will mean that 1,000,000 horse-power in the international section of the St. Lawrence is developed for us and 1.000.000 horse-power for the United States; I am glad to see that the President of the United States is moving in that direction. When that is done everything will be electrified and electricity will come into its own as never before.
I am convinced it will provide hundreds of thousands of jobs. There is nothing like it.
I wish to say a word about our western provinces. I have a very warm feeling for the western provinces. I want to see them get on their feet in the power production field. The province of Manitoba uses at the present time about 395,000 horse-power and has a surplus of 25,700 horse-power. As I said a few moments ago, under the hydro electric power commission Ontario is producing and buying 2,540,000 horse-power. Manitoba has only a small part of what we produce here, but they can have a lot more power in Manitoba. They can produce it cheaply. I hope this bank will be so organized that if the Manitoba hydro power commission wishes to get some of this money to create more cheap power it will be able to get it. In any event, if it does, the bank's money will be safe.
To-day Manitoba has a surplus of about 25,700 horse-power; that is a total of 420,700 horse-power. That surplus would not much more than serve the little plant which was recently started in northwest Ontario. It would supply sufficient power for such iron mines and so forth. If Manitoba were called upon to supply 30,000 horse-power to develop more mines-and they have lots of mineral resources to start with

they would require more power. They have ample opportunity to generate it. There is a splendid falls in the northern part of your province, Mr. Speaker, on the Nelson river. It is called White Mud falls and is down river east of lake Winnipeg where the river drops about thirty-five feet, and where the volume is about
35,000	cubic feet per second. It could be easily harnessed. There would be no difficulty in developing a power plant there. The minimum capacity of that plant would be over 100,000 horse-power. The maximum would be two or three times that. If the level of lake Winnipeg were raised by a dam on the Nelson river it would be still more. If a power plant were established there it would in time open up scores and scores of industries in that part of Manitoba which is overflowing with natural resources. These resources are waiting for cheap power.
If this bank can advance money to the Manitoba power commission under this clause to make more power and cheaper power available, it would be a fine thing for Manitoba, would it not? That province is now proposing to go into the electrification of farms. I hope it does. I have recently read that the government of Manitoba proposes within a period of -I am not sure how long the programme is-

Industrial Development Bank

ten years to electrify 30,000 farms. The Ontario power comission has a programme in mind to spend $6,000,000 for the further extension of power in this province. That will result immediately in orders to the electric equipment companies in Ontario and elsewhere up to the amount of $4,000,000. That will mean a lot of employment in electric manufacturing plants in Ontario, apart from the provision of cheap light and power to farms for grinding their fodder, and it will increase the possibility of enlarging the stock population and so forth. If this bank can do for Manitoba what we have been able to do in Ontario, so much the better for Ontario as well as for Manitoba, because every additional thousand dollars made in Manitoba means more business for Canada from Victoria to Halifax.
I wish to say a word or two about Saskatchewan. This is one province that certainly deserves the help and support of this bank, and I now have in mind what was said by two or three speakers who preceded me about the industrialization of Saskatchewan. There are two or three things that can encourage industrialization in that province. Saskatchewan should be industrialized; but what chance has that fine city of Regina and- that fine city of Moose Jaw to secure their due of industries? If you ask me why, I shall say the lack of water. There are scores of fine industries that would like to start in those cities, but they cannot start because there is no water for industries requiring large quantities of water. They have hardly enough there to supply their domestic needs, quite apart from the vast quantities that are used in many industries. [ shall not take the time of the house to name industries. Perhaps the hon. members know them. But there are many of them. I hope this bank will come forward and help the province of Saskatchewan and help the cities on the plains to get water. If the bank can help provide water for them and at the same time provide power, they will revolutionize the whole centre of that province.


Mr. McNIVEN:: I wonder if the hon.
member for Davenport would permit me. I appreciate very much everything he has said and done for the province of Saskatchewan, but I must point out to him that over a period of some thirty-five years the city of Regina has never been short of water. We have been short of other things, but not water.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I thank my hon, friend
for his interjection, but all I can tell him is that if he bases his interjection on what I was saying about water for water-requiring industries, then he does not know what he is talking

about. The same applies to Moose Jaw. If anyone says they have enough water in Moose Jaw to take care of a large number of industries that might go in there and require water, he would not know what he was talking about. I am sorry to say that to my hon. friend because before I came down to the Chamber tonight, I read a statement made by one of the great power men in Saskatchewan, intimating this very thing, the lack of wafer in both Regina and1 Moose Jaw-in large quantities, I mean, for manufacturing. Why, Mr. Speaker, what was the hon. gentleman talking about? If he knows the water requirements at Moose Jaw he knows that the total average volume may reach as high as 1,500,000 gallons a day, for a city of 26,000.


Donald Alexander McNiven: I was speaking of my
own city of Regina.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Let me finish; I can see that the hon. gentleman does not know anything about it, and I am too fond of him to expose him. I do not rise in my place to talk about things on which I am not thoroughly posted, particularly when it comes to water and electricity. I hope that when this bank is organized it will come to the rescue of both those cities and provide water in large quantities, not only for domestic purposes, about which my hon. friend may be talking, but for scores of factories, which require almost as much water as a city requires for domestic use. Saskatchewan can have power; it can get it in large volume in three places, and I hope this bank will rally to the support of the Saskatchewan power commission. Only to-day I had a letter from that commission, and I can tell my hon, friend that the total production in Saskatchewan at the present time is
125,000	horse-power. I am sure he will not rise in his place and say that is what it should be. I should like to see it a million and a quarter horse-power and some day, if I have my way, Saskatchewan will have that much, because it can be produced at many places. It can be produced at Fort a la Corne, on the Saskatchewan river, where I spent a good deal of time surveying, going down to the river over a very steep and difficult way. When I am on a survey I let nothing block me, so that1 when I come back I know what I am talking about. I am not so sure about the power that can be produced on the south branch, near Saskatchewan Landing; I am not sure that the foundations have been found there, though they have been found at Fort a la Corne. If they can be found near Saskatchewan Landing they will have a large volume of hydro-electric power at the northern end of the province, a large volume at the southern

Industrial Development Bank
end, and they can have a good deal of power developed at Estevan. Therefore I do not see why this bank would not rally to the support of whoever produces power at Estevan, where they are getting about 10,000 horse-power private and public to-day but where they should be getting 50,000 horse-power, so that the farmers of Saskatchewan could have electric power also. Only 140 farmers in that whole province receive electricity from the power commission to-day. Of course many farmers have Delco plants, but no Delco plant can produce power as cheaply as hydro-electric power can be produced.
I am glad the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) is in his seat, because I know he has a warm feeling for Saskatchewan. If the time comes when this government decides to aid the western provinces, particularly Saskatchewan, in producing power, I hope they will absorb the cost of the lines required to connect up the present power plants at Moose Jaw, Regina, Prince Albert, Saskatoon, Estevan and Battleford. The production at Regina to-day is 40,000 kilowatt hours; if that is divided by -746, it gives 53,000 horse-power, and that is the maximum for that city. Moose Jaw has about 20,000 kilowatt hours; Saskatoon has about the same. The fine city of Prince Albert, where the hon. member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker) resides, has 5,000 horse-power, while Battleford and Estevan each have 3,500 horse-power. All these systems should be connected. To-day in Ontario the hydro electric commission is eliminating costs all the time because it wants to encourage a vast increase in manufacturing in this province. Although the cost of power is low today, before they finish what they are doing it may be a good deal lower, and the other provinces should have the same opportunity.
As far as Alberta is concerned, I hope this bank will lend its assistance to such projects as the irrigation scheme of the Canada Land and Irrigation company. If they could be lent, say $4,000,000-and it need not be given to them in one year, because they might not be able to do all the work in one year-distributed over two or three or four years, we would be doing a great service to eastern Alberta, because that would bring irrigation right up to the suburbs of Medicine Hat. These are some of the things for which I believe this bank could be used. These enterprises cannot get money to-day, and' of course I am not blaming the ordinary banks for that, because they have your money and mine in their vaults and they are not permitted just to hand out large sums here, there and everywhere. That can be done by this proposed bank, however; that is its purpose, to develop busi-100-90J
ness; and if the Canada Land and Irrigation Company could be lent $4,000,000, in the long run it would not cost the country anything; you would get your money back again, and in the meantime you would do a great service. As to British Columbia, they have a great volume of electric power out there, or could have it. There are falls in that province which can be harnessed easily to produce a large quantity of cheap horse-power. If they did that perhaps they would be able to-develop iron mines, just as Ontario is doing at Steep Rock, in the northwestern part of the province.
Here is the way I feel about this bank. I am not arguing as to whether it has or has not value; I am accepting it in good faith that the government's intentions are to give the bank power to assist in the creation of many new industries. If that is one of its purposes my support will not have been in vain . I believe we shall have to do something, because even in the midst of war every other country is preparing for the peace. Even the Japanese are beginning to get ready to capture the markets they have lost. I remember very well what they did in England before the present war began, because I made a careful survey there to find out how they had been able to build up so many thousands of small enterprises all over the country. Outside London at a place call Slough, I think it was called, they had over five hundred new industries; northeast of London they had another five hundred, and southeast of London another five hundred more or less. Then out* side Manchester they built up another great industrial area. How was it done? By insisting that the material exported to the continent under their trade agreements with European countries should have at least fifty per cent British content and by cheapening power. One result was that many small plants had to move from Canada to England. I visited quite a number of those plants myself; many of them began in a very small way, but by the time war broke out some of those little factories had grown to quite a size. One small firm in my own riding, makihg valves, went over there first with a staff of fifteen, but when I saw them they had a staff of about 250. That is what we must do in Canada; we must use all our ingenuity to build business and give men jobs. If we do so, there will not be any depression after the war, and the people of Saskatchewan, Alberta and Manitoba will be in an infinitely better position than they are in to-day if they can get chceap power, and small industry to develop their own products. At the present time they must ship their goods in order to have them pro-
Industrial Development Bank

cessed. Many of those goods could be processed out there, and freight would be saved on the finished products, with the result that they would cost less.
What would be the result? It would be as it should be, namely that articles would be available at much lower cost. I was in business, and the objective at all times was to produce the best materials at the lowest possible price. We tried always to turn out the finest grade of material at the lowest cost. Only in that way was a huge plant built up, a plant growing from only a few men to many hundreds of men. I know of no other way of building a business. Make a good product and make it as cheaply as you can. If we can do that in Canada after the war with the help of this bank and the other financial institutions and our own standard banks- because I will not go back on them; they have given yeoman service all through the years, without loss of money to our people what will be the result? Men will be working everywhere. Women will be working everywhere. Homes will have electric washing machines, electric radios, electric irons, electric this and electric that, and there will be jobs all along the line.
Why should the people not have these appliances? Why should they not have the use of electric equipment? Why should only 140 farmers in Saskatchewan have the advantage of electric power? In Ontario there are
65,000	who have that advantage, and another number of thousands who are about ready to receive this advantage from the hydro electric power commission.
If this bank does anything to supplement the work of the standard banks in the creation of a large number of industries, by assisting wherever necessary in the production of cheap power, it will have done a fine job and will be worthy of the support it is receiving generally throughout the house.


Mr. LIONEL BERTRAND (Terrebonne):: Mr. Speaker, I will make only a few remarks concerning this bill. As the representative of a constituency which will have to face many problems after the war, I cannot permit this occasion to go by without stating that I approve the principle of this industrial development bank.
The county of Terrebonne is one of the most industrialized rural counties of the province of Quebec. There are at least twenty very important industries whose products are sold not only in this country, but also on foreign markets. As many factories manufac-,ture for local or national needs. Furthermore,

the plants of Defence Industries Limited, at Bouchard, are located within the limits of my county.
When the war is over, these war factories must be transformed into peace factories. These war plants may be handed over to powerful organizations which will dispose of capital sufficient to assure their transformation. If these companies, however, in order to balance their production, need additional capital, the industrial development bank will be in a position to help them. It is also quite possible that a plant like that at Bouchard, the proportions of which are immense and which has on its property an immense system of roads, railways, aqueducts and sewers, and even a fire protection service, may be granted by sections to a series of small or medium industries which would form, with a common pool of commodities, an altogether ideal manufacturing centre. In such event, the industrial development bank, which will have $100,000,000 at its disposal, will be very useful to give industrial concerns, whether new or previously existing, additional funds for their expansion.
A number of small and medium industries, actually in operation in Canada, will have to face post-war problems. Most of them, the normal production of which was curtailed by the war and its restrictions, will have to reestablish, after the war, a standard of production which was quite upset. Owing to a fairly extended period of slow production; owing to the enormous taxes which they have paid and to overhead costs which are not recovered through adequate revenues; owing also to the fact that they must buy more modern machinery, many firms will be obliged to contract loans extending over rather long periods of time. If the government also favours small concerns, it will be well. In our country, the smaller industry plays a part which one cannot neglect. During the depression, the towns which had small varied industries were in a position to pass through this period with greater ease than those which had but one or two large concerns. This does not mean that we have to neglect the larger firms in their legitimate requirements, but it is befitting that special care be taken of the smaller industries. They are a vital element in our economic life, first, owing to the employment which they afford and, second, owing to the aid they give to general production.
I appreciate the cooperation given to industry by the chartered banks, but their loans are usually granted only on short terms. The industrial development bank will grant longterm loans, and this will be a new and profit-
1.429

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able accommodation for industry. But the industrial development bank does not take the place of the chartered banks. The latter will also be able to grant loans. This bank simply completes the activities of our banking institutions and does not harm them. The loans which it will grant to concerns offering sound guarantees will be intended to develop industry. When industry is successful there is work, and work ensures the success of the labouring class. A bill which makes $100,000,000 available to help industry to recuperate, to help smaller industry to make better progress after the war period which undoubtedly will have dealt it rough blows, to transform war industries into peace plants and to give financial help to the companies concerned is one which embodies an interesting innovation. I should have liked it to include agriculture also, which lies at the very basis of our general economy. I should have also liked it to include a plan whereby ownership would have been rendered easier for the labourer. It was stated that the government has additional measures in these two domains, and I am quite glad of that. For the moment the question relates to a measure intended to increase the level of production, which also means an assurance to labour. I am in favour of the bill, since its object is to help the labouring classes by securing work for them, and since it also intends to foster private enterprise. Too much will never be done in this respect. Nationalization would be disastrous for the country, and furthermore, for the worker. Private enterprise is the foundation-stone of all true democracy. It is the duty of Canada to sustain it


Mr. J. A. ROSS (Souris):: Mr. Speaker, I desire to offer a few observations on this bill to establish the proposed industrial development bank. May I first refer to the preamble, which says:
Whereas it is desirable to establish an industrial development bank to promote the economic welfare of Canada by increasing the effectiveness of monetary action through ensuring the availability of credit to industrial enterprise which may reasonably be expected to prove successful if a high level of national income and employment is maintained, by supplementing the activities of other lenders and by providing capital assistance to industry with particular consideration to the financing problems of small enterprise.
As I go through the definitions I can find none that defines what may constitute a small enterprise. Nor is there any limit set on individual loans. I wonder if the real thought in setting up this proposed bank may not be to transfer existing government-owned plants to corporations as the war ends. If that is the case, I do not believe that it will meet with the wishes of the great majoritv of the citizens
of Canada. According to the "Canada Year Book" for 1940, in the year 1938 just before the war, in the two provinces of Ontario and Quebec were centred eighty per cent of the industries of the dominion. There was invested in manufacturing industry in these two provinces some $2,096,000,000. We are told that this was due to geography, the proximity of Canada to the United States, and such like reasons. In British Columbia there was 6-8 per cent of the industry of Canada; in Manitoba, 3-9 per cent; in the provinces of New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, Saskatchewan and Alberta, there was less than nine per cent of all the industry of the whole uominion; and the maritime provinces had less than four per cent of the industry of the whole dominion. This situation has been greatly aggravated during these years of war by governmental action.
(And Mrs. Casselman having taken the Chair as Acting Speaker:)
May I be the first, Madame Speaker, to congratulate you on the distinction of being the first lady to occupy the Speaker's chair during the debates of this house.
In Canada we had in 1938 approximately a five billion dollar production, and in 1943 that had risen to approximately ten billion dollars. In other words, our production has been doubled during these war years. These facta should have a great bearing on the livelihood of our people at the present time. Many hundreds of millions of dollars have been advanced during the war to assist great industries. I think that over $1,700,000,000 has been advanced for industrial expansion alone, the very great bulk of it in the two central provinces, and this at a time when small industries have been gradually passing out of existence. It is interesting to note that in 1941, in comparison with 1940, small industries in every part of Canada received a lesser amount of the total business done by the nation as compared with the share of the larger industries. If I might be permitted to use some figures which my colleague the hon. member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker) used the other day, in 1940 there were in Manitoba, out of a total number of 1,171 industries, 698 with production to a value of less than $25,000, and 130 with production valued at between S25,000 and $50,000. In Saskatchewan there were 814 industries, of which 592 produced under $25,000, and seventy-eight between $25,000 and $50,000. In Alberta there were 1,068 industries, of which 734 produced under $25,000, and 113 between $25,000 and $50,000. The over-all picture in Canada was that of 25,513 industries in 1940; in the first category there were 15,478, and in the second, 2.951.
Industrial Development Bank

I could quote many other figures along that line to emphasize the great disparity existing between our western and maritime provinces as compared with the industrial growth in the two central provinces. This trend has been going on all through the war years, and in my opinion this bill will not stop it.
The proposed legislation will not be of particular benefit to the small business man, nor will it enable the returned soldier to establish himself in business unless the type of business in which he may engage goes beyond the scope of this bill, which is limited to aiding industrial enterprises, the building of ships and the generating or distribution of electricity. I do not have to point out to members of this house that during these war years -many operators of small businesses have been forced to close down, and I think they should be kept in mind when this bill is being discussed by the banking and commerce committee. The viewpoint of the United States with regard to small businesses and the recommendations that have been made there are, I think, of particular application to Canada. I quote:
The broad back-bone of enterprise, that as production controls are relaxed particular care should be taken to protect the competitive positions of small business as far as practicable within the needs of the war. Cancellations of war contracts can be guided to permit the earliest releasing of small concerns which can convert back to peace-time production; also certain nuisance production controls involving only a limited amount of resources which press heavily on small concerns can be relaxed sooner than broader production controls.
The recommendations in the United States are:
So far as war production is concerned the lending authorities should be restricted to the Smaller War Plants Corporation. For permanent risks which the banks cannot assume, the federal banking system should be given authority to make industrial loans.
The prairie provinces, and to a lesser degree the maritime provinces, have during the past four years been discriminated against or deli-oerately ignored in the development of war industry. There has been a tremendous exodus of people from the western provinces, many of whom I hope will desire to return.
This proposed legislation, if it is to be effective, must be made effective immediately. It must have teeth in it. When I view the situation in the three western provinces and the failure of the government to develop industry there during war time as it should have been, I fear for the future in the postwar period with respect to the use to which moneys will be placed by this corporation.
May I point out that in the three prairie provinces practically all of the flax seed in

Canada is produced, some 17'6 million bushels out of a total production of 17-9 million bushels-practically all from the prairie provinces. Canada's sunflower seed crop is 17'9 million pounds, all of which is produced in the three prairie provinces. The oil cake derived therefrom as a by-product is required by the live stock producers of the prairie provinces both for their dairy cattle and for beef production. The greater part of the flax seed and other oil-producing seeds mu^t now be shipped east for processing, and our producers pay transportation costs both ways, despite the difficult transportation problems which now prevail in this country.
The western provinces have not received consideration in the matter of the development of war plants during these years. In the last two years plants have been established at Hamilton and Toronto for t!he processing of oil seeds. I do not think I need remind hon. members that before anyone can establish a plant a permit must be procured from the federal authorities.
If our Canadian economy is to be built up on a basis of Canadian unity, there must be decentralization of industry. On many occasions I have raised in this chamber the question of grain alcohol and especially its use in these difficult times in the 'manufacture of synthetic rubber. Paul J. Kolochov, a Russian chemist, now chemical expert and technical counsellor to Joseph E. Seagram and Sons, of Louisville, Kentucky, has stated in the last few days that eighty per cent alcohol is now used in motors throughout Brazil. He also states that in this country there are great possibilities for the use of alcohol as a fuel for motors. Canada's most up-to-date synthetic rubber plant, at Sarnia, Ontario, has just been completed at a cost of some S48,000,-000, and here petroleum products are used, despite the scarcity of these same products. Agricultural research will, I am convinced, develop many other possibilities in this line.
My colleague the hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol) spent much time in discussing the .possibilities, not only in his native province of Ontario but throughout Canada, of the development of electrical power. While we realize how great that development has been in Ontario, I do not believe that either in respect of developing or the possibilities of developing power, we of the province of Manitoba on a per capita basis need to take second place even to the great province of Ontario. Manitoba has abundance of electrical power and power possibilities, the cheapest in North America to-day, and adjacent to raw materials. We have always been told in the past that industry must be

Industrial Development Bank
developed close to ('.heap power and raw materials, and assuming that to be true, I would point out that these are just what we have in Manitoba. The organization and development of industry on the prairies, and especially in Manitoba, in pursuance of the aims of this bill, would save a great deal in transportation costs and avoid many of the difficulties we are experiencing to-day, with relief and benefit to Canadian taxpayers in general. Canadian industry should and must be decentralized if we are to make Canada what it is capable of becoming.
I was pleased to hear from the parliamentary assistant to the minister that a little later a bill is to be introduced to provide for an agricultural bank. I am surprised that such a measure has not been presented to the house before the industrial bill, because I do not need to remind anyone of the diificulties which agriculturists have been through of recent years, and which many of them are still experiencing as a result of the controls imposed for the war effort. I believe it will be generally agreed that western fanners have had to pay too high rates of interest, mnning from seven to nine per cent. Because of the difficulties with which they have had to contend they have not been able to pay interest, let alone principal, and have undergone, in many cases, a meagre existence. It is important that when this bank is set up they should have the right to rediscount their present obligations. I trust this bank will receive funds, as do the chartered banks to-day, at approximately one and one-half per cent. Assuming they can do business for another one and one-half or two per cent, it should be possible for many farmers to have their obligations rewritten at a reduced rate, say three and one-half per cent, which I think is the rate provided for in the soldier settlement land scheme. That would mean a great deal to the agricultural producers of this country. The vast majority of them still need funds at a low rate of interest in order to procure farm implements. There is a tremendous backlog in this respect. Farm buildings are in a very bad state of repair. Also, farmers should be able to raise funds at a low rate of interest in order to build up a much better type of live stock than many of them have to-day.
I shall have much more to say on this matter when the measure dealing with agriculture is presented to the house. I trust there will also be a bill for better housing in Canada.
I hope that ex-service men and others will be assisted under this industrial development bank bill, and that it will not be made a means of further centralizing industry. As I have already pointed out, it should not be a
means of turning over present government-owned agencies to private individuals or corporations. To do so will not meet the requirements of this country, and the bill should not be so used.


Mr. V. J. POTTIER (Shelburne-Yarmouth-Clare):: I wish to say a few words, because there is one thing in this bill which above all pleases me and in my opinion meets a growing demand; that is the purpose, expressed in the preamble, to promote industry "by providing capital assistance to industry with particular consideration to the financing problems of small enterprises." Those two words, "small enterprises," are being heard more and more, perhaps too late, but it seems to me that if the struggle is continued it will result in benefiting this type of industry.
We have seen in Canada, unfortunately, of late, perhaps going back a decade or more, a centralization of industry brought about by attempts to freeze out small industry by large industry, also by large industries establishing themselves in the more populated centres. This has had the effect of centralizing industry in two ways. From the provincial point of view we find industry centralizing in the capital cities or the larger populated centres, the pull being in that direction; while from the dominion point of view we find industry being centralized-whether hon. members from the central provinces like it or not-more and more in the two provinces of Quebec and Ontario. At the same time industry has moved from the parts of the country remote from that area. It may be said that we have to expect that sort of thing, that geography comes into the picture, that transportation facilities bring that about, that cheap power is responsible for such a situation. That may be so, but another feature that must be considered is the credit that goes with centralization, the credit that is brought about by large organizations, interlocking directorates, the fact that they can obtain money and credit to develop their own industries. This tends to further centralization and a further enlarging of the big centres, while small industries have not that opportunity.
This is not the first occasion on which I have discussed the difficulties with which we are faced in the maritime provinces. In March and April, 1941, in connection with the shipbuilding industry, I indicated that we could obtain, and in fact had orders for our shipbuilding concerns, or for some of them at any rate, but that the credit was not available to enable them to proceed. Let me refer to some remarks I made on March 10, 1941,

Industrial Development Bank
when I pointed out that we could not build ships because we had not the credit to finance the undertaking. I quote:
It is not a ship beyond their powers of construction of which they do not have the necessary mechanics or material.
The hon. member for York-Sunbury (Mr. Hanson) then observed:
It was beyond their financial capacity.
I replied:
Yes; the financial capacity was lacking.
Then I went on to show that they could not carry out the orders because they did not have the credit or finance. I repeated the same thing again in April in connection with the same industry. I refer to that as one of the developments which have taken place as the years have gone by, whereby orders could be obtained if we had the necessary finances to carry them out. The idea of helping small industries is an excellent one. I trust it will result in the establishment of such industries, because, if it does not, as far as I am concerned this bill will be meaningless; it will be of no assistance.
I hope that in some of the sections of the bill provision will be made for the fishing industry so as to bring that calling within the meaning of the words "industrial enterprise". I trust that when the bill goes before the committee this point will be made quite clear. One of the things I am afraid about' in this bill is that if it does help small industry it will result in the further centralization of such industry in the larger centres. When the bill goes before the committee I hope this point will be given due consideration.
With a view to preventing the centralization of small industries in the two central provinces-because there is danger of that, seeing that our financial institutions to-day are so centralized, their head offices and larger branches being in those provinces-I suggest that if we are not careful this bank will become centralized and further small industries will be taken away from the maritime provinces and the western provinces as well. Therefore, to meet that situation, I suggest that consideration be given to the allotment of certain credits by areas. I believe that should be indicated in one way or another. Besides that, I suggest that administration be by regions and not from central headquarters as by the directors of the Bank of Canada at the present time.
If these points are not very carefully watched; if we do not approach the subject from the angle of regional allotments and regional administration, centralization will continue to the detriment of those areas of

Canada lying on the outskirts of the two large provinces I have mentioned. In order to check that trend, there are certain considerations to be noted. There are energies that can be used to the advantage of the Canadian people. I am not suggesting that in some cases centralization is not necessary for the large industries. There are places for centralization, just as there are places for decentralization where the energy and the qualifications of individual effort can be made use of. That can be taken advantage of by a proper use of the provisions of this bill. If we take care of our small industries; if we encourage individual effort; if we promote small enterprise working in cooperation, in the country districts, with the small farmers, these two types of individual that go to make a healthy country, we shall bring about a new spirit and a new hope, and the people outside the large cities will find a new life and the Dominion of Canada will benefit thereby.


Clarence Gillis: I have listened patiently for several
days to this discussion. I had no desire to take part in it, and had someone else expressed my opinion I would not now be taking up the time of the house. However, I regard the measure which is at present before the house as one of the most important that will be discussed at this session. I realize that this bill, when it has been thoroughly discussed in this house, will go to the banking and commerce committee, and after carefully listening to the debate that has taken place so far I believe that the one man who in my opinion understands banking and the functions of money- I refer to the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard (Mr. McGeer)-sounded a timely word of warning to the members of the house with regard to the job that this bank has to do and the shortcomings of the bill in its present form,
I will endeavour to provoke the thoughts of the banking and commerce committee along lines other than those I have heard- discussed so far. A good deal of time has been taken up on this bill in criticism of what this group stands for, and so forth and so on. That has no relation to the particular measure, but I would say that when our hon. friends all around us hurl the kind of stuff that has been thrown over here during the last several days, it is a complete indication of the fact that they fail to recognize the seriousness and the responsibility of parliament in the present situation. It does not make very much difference what this small group thinks or advocates. We are here with a programme given to us by the membership of our organization

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across Canada. They make that programme, and that programme reflects their thinking whether we like it or not. That is the road they desire us to travel, and the criticism that comes across the floor of the house does not apply to us. That criticism is being made against those who draft the programme. Hon. members should keep that in mind. That programme reflects the thinking of the Canadian people who are interested in this movement at the present time, and they make up a large body across Canada. Calling us names because we happen to represent those people will not change the situation one iota. Organized society is moving forward all the time. No organization in this house can have a static programme. The programme must be subject to change as changes are brought about in the economic structure. What someone in this organization said ten years ago or five years ago, does not make any difference today. If we have a democratic order of society, then it must be so arranged as to move forward in accordance with the thinking of the people and the developments of society itself. I am not going to waste any more time on that because it does not bother me. It merely demonstrates the fact that someone is not thinking when he wastes the time of the house on that kind of discussion.
I said I considered this bill perhaps one of the most important measures to come before the house. I do so for this reason, that it is, in my opinion, the first step that the government has taken in this field of social change as it pertains to the future. All our other measures have been merely along the lines we have been following for many years.


Mr. MARTIN:: What about unemployment insurance?


Clarence Gillis: Well, it is about fifty years
late in Canada, but-


Paul Joseph James Martin: You said the first.


Clarence Gillis: -it is a feeble step in the right direction.


John Horne Blackmore: Feeble is right.


Clarence Gillis: I am not unmindful of the fact that practically every organization that has appeared before the reconstruction committee, which has been sitting for two years, has wound up its discussion on its post-war programme with one statement, namely, that this programme is contingent upon the government of Canada making available the necessary finances to cany it through. This is the first step that the government has taken with respect to the formation of some central organization that will have the authority to make funds available.
I am rather sceptical of the job that this particular bank is going to be able to do. To start with, the amount of money available will not do more than scratch the surface in a post-war programme. Second, I am afraid that the setting up of the industrial development bank in Ottawa with that amount of money appropriated, instead of being designed to do the job that has to be done in Canada in the post-war period, is merely a prop to a system that has already broken down. That is my opinion. While the chartered banks have the business of the large solidly organized and well financed industries of this country within their sphere, in the field of experiment where risk has to be taken the small industrial bank will be used to handle anything in the post-war period.
The banks and industries of this dominion are, in my opinion, one organization. They have interlocking directorates. Many of the large industries must requisition for their machinery to-day through the banks. When you talk about the chartered banks and the established industries you are talking about the one economic organization. They are practically all controlled by the same group. We must not forget that all our large well-established industries to-day were small struggling industries not many years ago. We did not have centralized banking in Canada many years ago. As was pointed out by the senior member for Halifax (Mr. Isnor), our centralized banks of to-day were small provincial banks years ago. They were functioning within their own spheres; but with the development of the merger idea where it is more economic to have the administration of a certain industry under one head, the octopus grew. The small industries in the various provinces were brought together, and finally there was centralized control in the two central provinces. Along with that was built up the necessary power to operate them. Therefore I do not place much stock in all this talk about establishing industry east and west. I know it is badly needed in my own province. The maritime provinces have been merely the overseers of the poor for the last thirty years, as far as industry is concerned. Where there is a large concentration of power, there you will have your industry under the present scheme of things, and that is in these two central provinces.
As I visualize the function of this bank, this is what is going to happen. The war is over and there are certain development risks to be taken in post-war reconstruction. A small amount of money will be made available to develop post-war products across Canada.

Industrial Development Bank

It cannot be very large. The money will be made available from this small central bank, sectionally. Small industries will be permitted to develop until the risk is gone and there is a market for the commodity. When there is no longer any risk, under the present legislation, both provincial and federal, the big fellow who has control of the field will reach out and take it under his arm. That has been the history. This bank is not going to change it, because it is not making a fundamental change in the system. The province of Nova Scotia is a very good example of it.
In 1940, I put figures on the record to show the number of banks we had in our province. I do not want to repeat the figures. I also enumerated the small industries that we had. The province was standing on its own feet bath financially and industrially, but it all came into the central provinces because of the development of the system and the centralization of power into fewer and fewer hands. This bank is not going to change that. As small industries develop they will gradually find their way into this central organization. I visualize no changes.
I should like to call to the attention of the members of the house the fact that at the present time the Canadian people have an equity in Canadian industry to the extent of $800,000,000 in the form of plant, equipment, barracks and so forth. The people have not much control over it. A small committee, called the War Assets Corporation, has been selected and given the right to dispose of those assets. We have very little say in it. We are now definitely in the field of government ownership of industry. I think the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howh) has gone a long way on that road. We must not forget that because we have a considerable investment in the industries of this country; whether it is to be protected or not in the interests of the people of Canada I am not prepared to say at the moment, but it is something we are going to watch very, very carefully.
I visualize no progress in the future in the kind of bank that we now propose to set up.
I see no redress for the people. I wish to point this out definitely, because after a lot of thinking about it during my lifetime I became convinced of it. I am convinced that the cycle of the scheme of things as they are now has definitely turned. What we see at the present time is a dying system going out the hard way. I am convinced that the peoples of the world want a reorganized society to distribute the products of industry to the people on the basis of need. I am honestly convinced of that. I am also convinced 'that 
a certain transition must take place in order to bring about that result in a logical and democratic way. I do not think that transition will be made from the top. I do not visualize a time in the future when the state will be supreme in this country, nor do I believe the organization of state banks is the answer to the extension of a democratic order of society. If we are to make that transition it must come about through the people themselves, and in any new scheme of things that, we may develop we should fully utilize the people and make them a part of it.
I should like to remind the house that the field of finance is not something new to the Canadian people. Some ten years ago, out of their neeeds, the people of Nova Scotia began to study this question; and from coast to coast in Canada to-day thousands of people are engaged in a movement which aims at establishing the credit of the people in the various communities across the country through the medium of that credit union movement. Thousands of people in study groups in my province have gone very carefully into these questions of finance and credit during the last ten years. There is a complete circle of credit unions through that province, and every province has them to-day. Instead of setting up a bank for the purpose of developing industrial and other projects in the post-war period, a state-controlled bank with power concentrated here in Ottawa, we should fully utilize the cooperative movement in Canada generally, and particularly the credit union movement that is in this field of credit and finance exclusively. We should be thinking of a central cooperative long-term loan and mortgage bank, set up in Ottawa, with the various credit unions across Canada making up the service organizations in the field. In addition, there are available a few million dollars which n6w stand as the surplus which has grown up in that movement, which is not permitted under present legislation to extend its activities into the field of long-term and mortgage credit. If we established something on the basis I have suggested, giving the credit unions across this country the right to go out and sell bonds, as is proposed under this bill, it would enable all the people to become shareholders in that bank. The credit unions would be enabled to become individual shareholders and directors of that central cooperative bank; and in the scheme of things to come, when small industries and community projects are under consideration, they could be developed by the people themselves, so that when they came into operation they would be owned and operated by the people, while any profits accruing would go

Industrial Development Bank
back to the people through the medium of their own organization. That is the incentive necessary to build a new Canada.
It is my suggestion that if you could plan your industrial set-up on this basis and keep it free from interference on the part of the large monopolies that now exist, in twenty-five years you would have a basis of comparison between private enterprise, operated for profit, and government-owned industry owned and operated by the people themselves in the fields where the actual work is performed, with control of their own finances. Then you would be able to see definitely which organization should guide Canada's destinies in the future. There is no need to tear things down or to quarrel among ourselves. We have had seventy-five years under the one system, and it has failed both in time of peace and in time of war, because the government had to take it over in war time in order to properly organize it so that we might make our maximum contribution. The test can be made in that way. Many times we wonder at the contribution Russia has made, but the answer is very simple. There are no employers or employees in Russia; the people work for themselves, and the entire country is the corporation for which they work. That is the incentive which made them fight as they did at Stalingrad, and that is the incentive we must build up in Canada, not as it was done in Russia but as I am trying to describe it now. The transition should be made through the medium of the machinery that we are setting up now; we have tried the other method and it will not work. To-day in Canada we have thousands of people who have studied finance the hard way; if I had time to put on record the funds now available through these credit unions I think it would be enlightening to most hon. members.
There is no other way in which it can be done; there is no other way in which society can be kept democratic, because we have definitely departed from the scheme of things as they were, and the development to-day is toward centralization, state control and ultimately the road to dictatorship. That is the accusation which is hurled across the chamber at us, but I want to tell you, Mr. Speaker, that not a group in this house is more alive to that particular development than the group in this corner, nor do I think anyone in Canada will fight harder against that kind of setup. That is the trend to-day, whether or not we realize it, and there is' only one way to offset it. When this bill goes to the banking and commerce committee, instead of any hurried decision on the matter I hope they will study the proposal I am now making in regard to the utilization of the Canadian 100-91J
people through the medium of their own financial organizations, which they have built up over a period of years to give themselves some say in the future scheme of things with respect to the reconstruction of Canada. It is worth trying, I am not afraid of that test; I know what the answer will be twenty-five years after it is made. Unless we realize that the test must be made in this way I am very much afraid of what is coming in the future. We kid ourselves about the international situation and all that kind of stuff. Anyone who follows the international situation at all carefully is fully aware of the fact that in the aftermath of this war we shall have our most serious struggles; and unless we are alive to the situation and utilize the brains of the people of this country in the reconstruction that must be carried on, in order that the people may have a large stake in it. we are not going to have a very nice time after the war is over.
I am not going to occupy any more of the time of the house, except to suggest that I see absolutely no hope in the proposal now under consideration. I recommend to the banking and commerce committee that instead of the bank now proposed, which is merely a palliative or a prop for something already fallen down, they consider the possibility of establishing a central long-term loan and mortgage bank for the cooperative movement in Canada, using as service organizations in the field the credit unions already established throughout the country. To raise the capital required it is only necessary to give that movement the same privilege the government is now giving this bank, the privilege of issuing bonds in denominations of $10 and $100. It will give all of us a chance to become part of that set-up. It will give the credit unions a chance to put their surplus into that bank. It will give those unions a medium through which they can become part of that board of directors. In my opinion, in the maritime provinces the only industry that will ever be developed is the industry developed by that kind of organization. There will never be any subsidiary industry in the maritimes under the set-up now proposed. The trend is just the reverse. They are closing things down already, in that part of the country. The Trenton plant, into which we put half a million dollars a few years ago, has already closed down. The Ferguson Brothers yards at Pictou have been pulled up and transferred to Montreal.
That is the present trend of things in the maritime provinces. But I am reasonably sure that if that cooperative movement in Nova Scotia had some assistance, and had the help of some legislation, it would develop industry.
Industrial Development Bank

I should like to say this, too, that whether we get assistance or not, we are going to do that in the aftermath of the war. The people of that province are going to develop their own industry and subsidiary industry after this war is over, and they will do it through the medium of that cooperative movement. It may be made much easier; it may be made national. Thousands of people have studied the matter in the last ten years-because it is not new; it is well grounded and ably led. This government could now utilize that organization across the country and give the people a stake in the aftermath of the war. That is something to work for, instead of having them watch the stock market, and wondering where they will be next week.
I strongly urge that the banking and commerce committee consider this proposal. I shall have more to say' when the bill is considered section by section.


Frederick Davis Shaw: Mr. Speaker, before bill No. 7, to incorporate the industrial development bank, is given second reading and referred to the committee on banking and commerce, for amendment and clarification, I wish to make a few observations. Part of what I shall say will have to do with the possibilities of the bank, with, as some suggest, its impossibilities, with its provisions, and again, as some suggest, with respect to its lack of provisions.
When the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance introduced the bill on March 2 he said it was a part of the government's programme for maintaining a high level of employment, and also for the maintenance of a high level of national income. He said further that it is in the national interest to ensure that such additional financing as may be necessary and desirable will be available to industrial enterprise. I concur wholly in the remarks of the hon. member for Lethbridge (Mr. Blackmore), when he asserted a few days ago that it is of necessity imperative that we secure more information relative to the suggestion that the loans will be made where necessary and where desirable. A great deal will depend upon who determine the necessity and the desirability, and their method of arriving at conclusions.
Then the parliamentary assistant said that a purpose of the bank, further, would be that of filling the gap in our financial structure, and to ensure that adequate financing is forthcoming for desirable projects. For these reasons the government proposes to establish this bank. Here again I concur heartily in the remarks of the hon. member for Acadia (Mr. Quelch), who asserted that until such time as the necessary revision is made in The

Bank Act it will be virtually impossible to ascertain the extent of the gap that may exist in the period of reconstruction following the war.
I regret intensely that our amendment to defer consideration of this measure until the banking and commerce committee has given consideration to the Bank Act was rejected by the house. Undoubtedly the purpose of introducing the measure to establish the industrial development bank arose as a consequence of the government's realization that probably a million and a half to two milliop people in Canada are vitally concerned and worried not a little about the possibilities of employment, proper income and related matters following the war. It has been said time and again in the house in recent weeks that we have approximately 1,200,000 employees in Canada who hold jobs which, in a sense, could be said to have been created by the government. They are jobs which did not exist prior to the war, and which may not exist following the cessation of hostilities. We know that approximately half a million employees in Canada are engaged in war enterprises 6uch as shipbuilding, the manufacturing of aircraft and the like. It has been said that a certain number of them will be required in those industries after the war, and with that statement I agree. But it could hardly be said with any degree of certainty that more than ten per cent of those now employed in those industries will be employed in them during the period following the war.
Then we know, too, that in our mining industry, and in certain plants, such as chemical plants, production has increased by from four to ten times its normal extent because of war conditions, and also it is known that employment in those industries has increased in this time of war to the same degree. No matter what our programme may be after the war with respect to the mining industry or the chemical industry, it is hardly possible that the total number who are now employed in those industries will continue to be so employed after the war. It is also true that we have about 800,000 of our young people in the services. A good deal of faith has been placed in the measure enacted by parliament a year or so ago guaranteeing that under certain circumstances many persons who left employment to join the services will be guaranteed that their jobs will be waiting for them when the war is over. I suggest, however, that we should not at any time lose sight of the fact that many of those jobs which were

Industrial Development Bank
quite desirable prior to the outbreak of war may not be nearly as desirable when the war is over.
I may give as an illustration this fact, that hundreds, perhaps thousands, of the service personnel who were engaged in certain occupations where the salaries were comparatively low have now assumed the responsibilities of married life. Some of them now have two or three children. Jobs which paid $80 or $90 a month, and which, as I say, were satisfactory under the circumstances that prevailed when they joined the forces, will be entirely unsatisfactory when the war is over.
We see industries closing in certain parts of the country. The hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Gillis) referred to the situation developing in Nova Scotia. In my own province of Alberta I know .that much of the work in connection with the Alaska highway project in the north has come to an end and that many Canadians who were employed on that project are without employment. While a certain number of them have been absorbed into other industries, a great many of them have not. We are also informed that many of the aerodromes throughout the country are to be closed. In my own constituency there are two. We have an elementary flying training school, with approximately 240 civilian employees, a great many of them older men, men who will not be absorbed into other industries even during war time because of their age.
I think it is because of these things that the government has decided to take this one step at least at the present time, if for no other purpose than to allay the fears of many of our people. Speaking in this house the other day, the leader of the opposition (Mr. Graydon) said, as reported at page 1387 of Hansard:
I do not, like some of our hon. friends in various parts of the house, pose as a financial expert. I speak strictly as a layman.
I hope the leader of the opposition does not assume that merely because we are so bold, if I may put it in that way, as to speak on a measure of this kind we are presuming to be financial experts. Speaking of that same thing, may I say that since I entered public life I have come in contact with a great many so-called experts and authorities, especially professing authorities and self-styled experts in the field of finance, production, distribution and allied subjects, and I have come to this conclusion, that so much contradictory advice and so many conflicting opinions have been given with respect to matters of finance, reconstruction, employment and unemployment, that success would seem to lie in a candid
examination of the facts by men who are not piofessing to be experts, by men who are not hampered by certain preconceived theories. When it comes to a matter of this kind I think the best possible work we can perform is to devote our attention to it as laymen, not professing to be experts at all.
The bill is designed, we are told, to assist industry. Naturally one who comes from the west cannot but consider his own part of Canada in the light of secondary industry. I have at times come to the conclusion that secondary industry in western Canada, an<f I know this is also true of -the maritimes, has definitely been sacrificed in the interests of central Canada. In Alberta, for instance, we have an abundance of power, in our coal, in our oil, in our natural gas and in our gasoline. I know, too, that we have many raw materials there which can be processed by secondary industry. My colleague, the hon. member for Lethbridge (Mr. Blackmore), who represents one of the great sheep-raising areas in western Canada, has time and again pointed out the possibilities for the woollen industry in that part of Canada. In the little town of Magrath in southern Alberta they are enjoying outstanding success in the manufacture of blankets and certain other woollen products. I know that clothing as well as blankets could be manufactured in that area. But we must have some encouragement naturally for the wool-growing industry and some certainty that t'he returns from the products thus manufactured will be reasonable. I know, too, that from the vast cattle ranges in that part of western Canada we can secure the leather necessary for the manufacture of shoes and other leather products. I know, too, from a bit of investigation, that we can develop in Alberta with signal success the paper industry, the furniture industry, also chinaware, pottery and tiles industries, the asphalt industry, a dyes industry, and other industries from the by-products of coal, also biscuits, cereals, glassware, canned goods, matches, brushes and so forth, and as the hon. member for Lethbridge says, also cement. I am not endeavouring by any means to cover the whole field, but just to give an idea of the possibilities.
I know it has often been said that in Alberta' we lack iron deposits. I realize that thus far we have not been successful in locating iron deposits in the province; I am not going to say that they are not there. But the proximity and extent of our power resources would indicate to me that it would be just as sensible to ship iron ore out to Alberta to be manufactured, as it would be to ship our power to the source of the iron ore.
Industrial Development Bank

Before secondary industry can hope to thrive in western Canada, certain injustices must be removed. I think first of freight rates. In the city of Red Deer in my constituency we have a condensery, a very successful enterprise. I know that in 1938, the latest figure I have, canned milk shipped from Red Deer to Vancouver, a distance of approximately 800 miles, was shipped ait a freight rate of ninety-eight cents per hundredweight, while canned milk was shipped from Tillsomburg, Ontario, to Vancouver at a freight rate of seventy-five cents per hundredweight. In other words, the condensery at Red Deer was endeavouring .to compete with an industry in Ontario for the Vancouver market and paying a freight rate of twenty-three cents per hundredweight more than its Ontario competitor whose canned milk had to travel three times the distance.
Again, at Taber, in southern Alberta, we have a vegetable canning factory. That area, a good deal of which is under irrigation, is ideal for the growth of vegetables. Canned vegetables shipped out of Taber to the Vancouver market, a distance of 800 miles, were subject to a freight rate of SI.16 per hundredweight, while canned vegetables shipped from points as far east as Montreal to Vancouver, a distance of 2,877 miles, enjoyed a freight rate of seventy-five cents per hundredweight. There was a difference of forty-one cents in favour of the shipper from Montreal, 2,077 miles further away from the Vancouver rngrket. Conditions of that kind, Mr. Speaker, must of necessity be given consideration and rectified.
There are other forces at work militating against the establishment of secondary industries in Alberta. The figures I have are not entirely up to date. I think we can consider them as applicable to the year 1938, and while there may be a difference at the present time we may well expect, if there are no changes, that we shall go back to those conditions following the war. Live cattle shipped at that time from Alberta to eastern Canada were shipped at the rate of $1.14 per hundredweight. If we had butchered our cattle there and had shipped the fresh meats the cost would have been $1.88, or we would have laboured under the penalty of an amount equal to 68 per cent. Let us go on. If we had shipped at that time four hundred boxes of Alberta butter from Edmonton to Toronto it would have cost us $762.82; that is less, of course, the icing charges. On the same weight of Ontario condensed milk, which of course is another dairy product, from Aylmer, Ontario, to Edmonton, a little longer distance, they would pay only $467.46, or a difference of approximately $300.

That creates an extremely difficult situation for us who are engaged in the dairy industry in Alberta.
Then let us take lard and lard substitutes. Shipped from eastern Canada to a point in British Columbia, the rate at that time was one dollar per hundredweight, but from Alberta to British Columbia, a distance 2,000 miles less, the rate was 9S cents per hundredweight- practically the same rate, with a difference of
2,000	miles.	'
I am going to refer to just one or two others. I shall not read the whole list. On hides and edible tallow from Vancouver to eastern Canada the rate is $1.25 per hundredweight, but from Alberta-say Calgary or Edmonton- approximately 800 miles less, we pay a higher rate, namely $1.50 per hundredweight. What I am trying to point out is this-


Thomas Vien: I would call the attention of the hon. gentleman to the fact that what he is quoting does not seem to have any relevancy to the bill. I should be glad to know just how he associates what he is discussing with the terms of the bill.


Frederick Davis Shaw: I shall be very happy to try
to establish the relevancy. We are discussing assistance which we hope will be granted to secondary industry in Canada. That assistance, since we are not told more definitely, may be granted in various forms. Some of it may go, if the proper thing is done, toward assisting us or subsidizing us, let us say, in connection with our freight rates, or may affect any one of a number of factors which enter into this matter. I trust, sir, that there is relevancy.
One other factor to which I should like to see some serious consideration given, and which finances from this bank may assist materially in meeting^-I can only assume this since the bill is very indefinite-is in connection with the tariff.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


Frederick Davis Shaw: It may be remote.


Thomas Vien: We are not dealing with
tariffs in this bill. I do not think remarks ol the hon. gentleman on that matter are relevant.


Frederick Davis Shaw: That is referring to the west.
-was worse than ignored by a policy which plundered the western provinces while it strangled the opportunity for western settlement and development; and the result was reflected in the industrial and commercial paralysis of the dominion from sea to sea. Manufactures languished from lack of markets; mechanics, unable to obtain employment, tramped the streets of Ontario cities under the gruesome signal of starvation; foreign capital held aloof from the unpromising field, while thousands of Canadian-born fled to the United States to find the opportunities of livelihood denied them at home.
Then it refers to the change of policy, namely the opening up of western Canada, and in another short paragraph it notes the beneficial effects which this had brought to central Canada:
The marvel of the west is its productiveness, the inrush of population, most of all the consuming capacity, the consuming possibility of that population for manufactured goods of all kinds. The farmers of the west-
Remember that this applies, Mr. Speaker, to a period at the turn of the century'.
-do not haggle over prices, they have the money to buy all kinds of things, and with their rapidly increasing numbers they can support an immense population in some other portion of the dominion better suited for industrial and manufacturing purposes.
Then in a short sentence it states that the central provinces are the parts of Canada particularly adapted to profit from this large increase in population on the prairies.
I read that simply for this purpose. I contend that when the west was opened the primary _purpose was that the industrial life of central Canada was in need of stimulation; in other words, in need of support which the editorial indicates would be forthcoming from the west. Ever since- that day forces have been at work in central Canada preventing the west from becoming industrialized, in order that that support might be continued on behalf of the central provinces of Canada. I think it has been proved beyond question that all the western provinces and all the provinces in what we regard as the maritimes are capable of supporting a greater number of secondary industries than they now enjoy.
Unless it is recognized that the government must take definite and concrete action to prevent the forces, both industrial and financial, which are consolidated in this part of Canada from maintaining the strangle-hold- I will call it that for want of a better word -upon western Canada, western Canada will wait and wait for its proper recognition in connection with secondary industry.
I do not desire to take very much more of the time of the house upon this occasion. I am not unduly impressed with the possibilities which such assistance to industry will give to employment and to the matter of effective demand and consumption. It was pointed out very well this afternoon by the member for Jasper-Edson (Mr. Kuhl) that the mere fact that we stimulate industry in order to create a certain amount of employment will only create such employment as long as the people of Canada are in possession of the purchasing power necessary to buy the products of industry. To think that industry can function while the people of Canada are not in possession of the means whereby they can procure the products of industry is to live in a day-dream. I could quote extensively from reports, which I believe would command the attention of the house, to show, as the hon. member for Jasper-Edson said this afternoon, that industry in itself does not pump into the system of purchasing power sufficient purchasing power to buy the goods which modem industry is capable of producing.
I do not say that the measure will not provide a degree of relief; but is not the mere fact that we are introducing a measure such as this clear enough proof that the financial facilities which have been available in the past have not met the requirements of industry or of the workers or of the people of Canada at large? In connection with the same point, I do not know' what is going to happen eventually, w'ith all the banks that the government find it necessary to establish. For my own part I would say that if it becomes necessary to establish more banks it is only because they must beforehand have reached an agreement to the effect that the present banking facilities are not meeting the requirements of the people.
We have a bank of international settlement. It is known that we have a Bank of Canada. Jt is also known that we have some provincial banks. It is a fact that on the statute books we have a central mortgage bank, though it has not become a reality. There are credit unions, referred to by the hon. member for Cape Breton South. Now we are to have an industrial development bank, and it has
Industrial Development Bank

been hinted that there will be an agricultural bank. What is the ultimate outcome to be? Is there or could there be an attempt to establish so many banking institutions in Canada that we shall never be able to segregate one to criticize it?
I would say, as was pointed out by other speakers in this group, that we have undoubtedly reached the stage where there must be drastic revisions in the Bank Act. I would say that such revisions should be carried on until such time as the banking institutions that we have in the country serve the purpose for which I believe banking institutions should be established. This idea that, after all, the chartered banks can make only short-term loans, therefore cannot possibly meet the situation, and that, as a result, we must have another bank, is just talking in circles.
The hon. member for Acadia (Mr. Quelch) asserted clearly that it would take only a revision of the Bank Act to make it possible for these long-term loans to be made. I find myself a bit confused by government policy. I wonder what the ultimate objective is. It may be a case of just wait and see; but I have been doing that now for almost thirty-five years. I hope that by the time another thirty-five years have gone by I shall have seen something more satisfactory than the various financial proposals which have been made by the orthodox governments of Canada from time to time since there was a Dominion of Canada.


Mr. F. G. HOBLITZELL (Eglinton):: With regard to this bill I would say that the small business man has not been entirely forgotten though he has been almost so. While I have not made myself heard in this chamber very often, I have on numerous occasions approached those in charge with reference to what we could do to build up the small business man and his morale. If this bill is designed to give assistance to small industries it can be very helpful indeed; but, Mr. Speaker, I have very much doubt. I will give the reasons for that. This bill No. 7, to incorporate an industrial development bank, has been drafted by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley) or his department. They still have in that department some advisers who are also administering the wartime prices and trade board, and I am going to make this suggestion. I think the two of them should get together, because one is proposing to bring forth a development bank to assist the small business man, to help to establish him in the post-war years. It seems to me, however, that an effort to prevent things from happening is far better than to establish something later on.

I have before me the edition of March 1, 1944 of the Canadian Grocer. I hope the parliamentary assistant to the minister will correct me if I am wrong. I am going to quote:
The wartime prices and trade board paid $460,618 to Canadian chartered banks for services in connection with ration-coupon banking for the period March 1 to November 30, 1943- a period of nine months. This information was recently given out by Hon. J. L. Ilsley, finance minister. On the other hand,' grocers who handle more than two billion coupons annually for the board get nothing for their services.
I remember, the first time I rose in the house to speak, I made the statement that labour is worthy of its hire. I certainly do not object one iota to paying for services rendered, and 1 do not object to this money being paid to the chartered banks, but I would ask this question. If the small grocer or the small business man, who has been handling two billion coupons annually, which he has to tear out of books and then lick them and paste them in, is willing to do this gratuitously, why should the chartered banks be paid? On the other hand, if the chartered banks are paid this sum of money, why do we not offer the small business man the same compensation for the services rendered? One or the other is wrong. In my opinion they should all be paid because it is a service rendered.
War brings casualties of all kinds, and the most sorrowful of all are those who have made the supreme sacrifice. Our deepest sympathy goes out to those who have lost their loved ones. But we have casualties at home among our small business men. Speaking in Toronto before one of the service clubs, one of the managers of the R. G. Dunn Company, a large mercantile agency from coast to coast, gave figures, which I believe he was in a position to give, showing that approximately ten thousand small business men had closed their doors. This is a large number of casualties.
I have repeatedly objected to some of the regulations put into force not only by the wartime prices and trade board but by some of those other boards which have been created and which are presided over by some of those dollar a year men. I shall qualify my statement somewhat with regard to those dollar a year men. Some of the dollar a year men who have been working here have given wonderful service. On the other hand, some of the regulations issued by some of the boards do not even make horse sense, let alone common sense. It is pretty hard to establish confidence in many small business men when things of that kind are carried out.
I have been in business as a small business man for some years. I do not mind going out

Industrial Development Bank
into the field of enterprise and fighting my way against competition. I believe that if this government wants to do something to assist the small business man it should not pass legislation for the benefit of the few in preference to the masses. If we legislate for the benefit of the few, then there is no alternative, in my opinion, but state control. I am not one of those who agree with government control.
I believe in private enterprise where one's initiative can reap the rewards of one's own efforts. In that connection I shall quote a definition which I clipped from one of the magazines. It is as follows:
What is private enterprise?
It is the natural desire to make your own way, as far as your ability will take you: an instinct that has brought to this continent the highest standard of life enjoyed by any people on earth. It is the spirit of democracy on the inarch.
Before this bill goes to the banking and commerce committee I should like to see the Minister of Finance meet with the wartime prices and trade board, because it looks to me, judging from this bill and the regulations, as if they are working at cross purposes. I think we shall all be confused until something is done one way or the other.


Mr. R. T. GRAHAM (Swift Current):: Along with many others who have spoken on this particular bill I am convinced that it is very important, important because it is a departure from the policy pursued by Canada in the matter of credit institutions during the whole course of its history. I realize, of course, it is meant to be a part of the reconstruction programme that without exception the members of this house are anxious to see the gov-vernment undertake. I realize also that the wording of the bill would indicate that it is meant to assist small industry; yet, probably it has a greater desire to assist small industry only in order to give employment and to increase the productivity of the business activities of the whole of the people of Canada, so that the production of that particular group may swell the total of our national income and thus permit some of the legislation that has been referred to in the speech from the throne to be of fruitful benefit in the postwar period. On the other hand, by the very nature of the legislation it would appear that it is expected that this particular lending institution will take a certain measure of risk in the lending of money that would not be expected of our commercial banks, mortgage and loan corporations, or insurance companies, or any other of the privately owned or chartered lending institutions.
I think all of us will agree that commercial banks, trust and loan companies or insurance companies, being the trustees either of their depositors or of their policyholders or of their shareholders, cannot, without risk to the structure that they are managing, take undue risks in the lending of other people's money; and to the extent, therefore, that it has been found necessary in the reconstruction programme to take care of that group of business activities which is not already served by the existing institutions, I, of course, agree that the government has done well to tackle and to try to meet that particular situation.
In addition to the institutions to which I have referred, I would point out, as the hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr, Gillis) indicated, that there are at present in this country credit unions which are part of the great cooperative system that performs in a small way in an individual community and contribute for many needs a useful service in the lending field. It is, indeed, an important part of the business growth of Canada. But I would point out that in my opinion he has failed completely to appreciate the real base upon which the credit union system operates and thrives and plays a very real part when he suggests that we can make it an adjunct of this industrial development bank. I agree with him that perhaps in the development of our financial system we shall do as the United States has done and institute banks for the very purpose of making loans to cooperative enterprises. That particular business has grown to an immense size in the United States. In 1942, the sixteen organizations whose function it is to lend to the cooperative enterprises, lent an amount of some $330,000,000. Believing as I do in the very great contribution that cooperative enterprise has to make in Canada, I have no doubt that this will be another development which will have to be undertaken by government in this country. Nevertheless I wish to point out to the Minister of Finance and to his parliamentary assistant that there is a great deal of weight in the comments made by the hon. member for Yancouver-Burrard (Mr. McGeer), when he suggested that we should be careful to remember the purposes for which the Bank of Canada was created and to see that those purposes are not lost sight of, and that the Bank of Canada's usefulness is not enmeshed in enterprises for which it was not intended.
I wish, like the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard, to recall to the house the basic principle underlying the creation of the Bank of Canada. It was created for the purpose of regulating the volume of credit and of cur-
Industrial Development Bank

rency in this country. It was not intended as hon. members know, to become a bank to transact lending business with individuals. It is not a bank of deposit in which you and I can leave whatever savings we have after the payment of our income tax. Like the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard, I think the Minister of Finance and the banking and commerce committee should look carefully into the question of whether this bill will in any way impose upon the Bank of Canada duties it was never intended that the central bank should undertake.
Since this bill provides that the capital stock of the bank is to be subscribed by the Bank of Canada, after which it will be permitted to sell to the public bonds or debentures to an amount not exceeding $75,000,000, we shall have a partly publicly-owned and partly privately-owned institution. The bonds or debentures issued by this bank to the public will not be guaranteed by the dominion; and as I went over the provisions of the bill it struck me that we should be careful not to involve the credit of the Bank of Canada in a financial venture to which the public are invited to subscribe through the purchase of bonds, unless we are prepared to see to it that the venture will be a success and that there will be a reasonable return on the money invested by the public. Having in mind the purposes of the bill, the rate of interest paid on the bonds will be small. This institution will make loans for fairly long periods to at least some individuals who may not be considered A-l risks but who will have a good prospect of succeeding in their ventures and making a contribution to the productive life of this country. Therefore it stands to reason that if the purposes of this bill are to be carried out there will be an element of risk and that at some stage of the bank's career there will be losses. It seems to me, therefore, a dangerous thing to have the Bank of Canada in close association with an institution which may find it impossible to pay a reasonable return to those who invest in it, and which, in fact, may find itself at some period facing a substantial deficit in its capital structure.
For this reason, Mr. Speaker, I suggest to the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Abbott) that he and his departmental officers consider whether or not the suggestion made by the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard is not of value. This institution is intended to serve a purpose which we think should be served, but we should dissociate it from that great central bank of ours. We want this bank to be courageous in making these loans; we want it to recognize 
the small industry, the small business man who needs money with which to start an enterprise which will have a reasonable hope of achieving success. For that reason I suggest to the parliamentary assistant that it might be well to revise the machinery set up in this measure and, instead of the public being invited to subscribe any portion of the necessary funds, to have the government create an organization completely apart from the Bank of Canada, with all the money necessary for the working capital subscribed by the government. I believe we can look to the future with great hope; yet the experience of the past surely tells us that there may be periods of stress again in the world which may impose upon our banking and financial institutions, as upon all our institutions, a load some cannot carry. In the past this central dominion authority has proved a great source of strength when our municipal and provincial governments found the going too hard. Fortunately for us we had the solid stability of the central institution which was able to supply the help necessary to carry us through t.o better days. Therefore I leave that thought with the parliamentary assistant, that he reconsider the set-up of this institution.
May I express my satisfaction at the announced intention of the government to set up a similar type of credit institution to deal with agriculture. In common with all other speakers from western Canada and the mari-times, in the past I have deplored, as I deplore now, the centralization of industry in Ontario and Quebec. Let me assure you, Mr. Speaker, that it is not mere provincialism that dictates this attitude on my part, nor, I am sure, on the part of those other hon. members who have spoken in the same way. I believe the people most concerned with finding a solution to this problem are, strangely enough, not those who live in the outlying provinces. In their own interests, and particularly in view of the larger stake they have in this country, the people most interested in solving the problem of the centralization of industry and finance in Ontario and Quebec are the very people of those two provinces. I think it essential that hon. members should keep this in mind, and that we should all work with the government and with each other to find a way out of this difficulty, because in doing so we shall bring about less criticism, greater harmony and more prosperity for the whole of Canada, of which these two provinces form such an important part.
Had I the time, I should like very much to deal with the remarks of the hon. member for Cape Breton South. As always, I listened to his address with a great deal of interest, but

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I	am afraid he labours under a good many illusions. I think he fails to understand that socialism is the very antithesis of democracy, and that you cannot have democracy under statism or socialism.


George Hugh Castleden: Will the hon. member permit a question?


Roy Theodore Graham: No; I am sorry, but I have not time.


George Hugh Castleden: Did the hon. member ever hear of democratic socialism?


Roy Theodore Graham: The hon. member for Cape Breton South and others who hold his views make the very great mistake of believing that the cooperative movement is part and parcel of socialism. I say to them that nothing could be farther apart than the true spirit of the cooperative movement as I know it and the spirit of statism or socialism. So that the whole argument advanced by the hon. member falls because his premises are wrong. He states, for instance, that the difficulties we met during the depression were the result of the failure of the present system, which is sometimes called capitalism and sometimes free enterprise. Let me suggest that the reverse is true, and that if we look back over the history of that period we see that nation after nation made the mistake of so planning its economy that the rest of the world would be excluded and it alone would reap some benefit from that policy. The Bennett government that was in power from 1930 to 1935 brought in its Canada-first programme which, to the extent that it was carried into effect, was a planned economy. All hon. members know the result. I say that the closer we keep to the natural laws which govern the economy of the world and all countries therein, just to that extent shall we have fewer depressions, and depressions of less intensity when they do come. I cannot imagine anything which would be more likely to bring about a depression, or which would make the depression of the thirties look like a picnic, than would statism or socialism, if it were put into effect in this country in the future.
There are other matters I should like to mention, but I rose chiefly to bring to the attention of the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance some of the things which should be carefully considered before we finally adopt the very fine idea expressed in this bill.
On motion of Mr. Jackman the debate was adjourned.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Tuesday, Marclf 14, 1944