1944-02-23

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. K. FRASER (Peterborough West):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Finance a question, the wartime prices and trade board being under his department. Why is it that Quebec creameries are allowed to collect cream from the Quebec farmers twice as often as Ontario creameries are allowed to collect cream from the Ontario farmers, the collections being three times a week in Quebec and only three times every other week in Ontario?


Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: Ontario cannot have as much cream.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: It is pretty tough on the Ontario farmers.


Hon J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Finance):: I shall have to make inquiries and give an answer to the hon. gentleman on Thursday.



NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister) moved the second reading of bill No. 149, to establish a Department of National Health and Welfare.
He said: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to establish a new department of government to be known as the Department of National Health and Welfare, under the direction of a Minister of National Health and Welfare. The bill carries out one of the undertakings in the speech from the throne which relate to the establishment of new departments of government to deal, amongst other things, with postwar planning. I shall read the passage from the speech:
My ministers believe that the time is rapidly approaching when a minister of the crown should be responsible for each of the three broad fields of post-war planning. You will accordingly be asked to approve the establishment of the following departments of government:
(1)	A Department of Veterans' Affairs to have charge of the rehabilitation and reestablishment of members of the armed forces, and the administration of veterans' pensions and allowances;
(2)	A Department of Reconstruction to promote and coordinate planning for national development and post-war employment; and
(3)	A Department of Social Welfare to organize and to assist in administering activities of the federal government in the fields of health and social insurance.
The words "Social Welfare" as the designation of the department have since been changed to " National Health and Welfare."
As to the scope of the new department, it divides itself broadly into two parts, the first of which has to do primarily with health, and the second with social welfare.
The first part, concerned primarily with health, takes over from the old Department of Pensions and National Health those branches which relate particularly to health. As the house is aware, there has already been taken from the Department of Pensions and National Health the .portion of the work of that department which relates more particularly to veterans' affairs. Apart from veterans' affairs, there remain the branches of the department which relate to national health. All these will be brought under the new Department of
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National Health and Welfare, and the present Department of Pensions and National Health will disappear.
The other main division of the new department will be social welfare. This will include such branches of the public service of Canada as relate to social welfare which may be transferred from existing departments to the new Department of National Health and Welfare, as well as the administration of such new social welfare measures as may be enacted. As the house is aware, there are several social security measures which are already on the statutes and which are administered by different departments of government. One of these is that pertaining to old age pensions administration, which has been under the Department of Finance. The Minister of Finance has indicated that in some respects it would be preferable that a department other than the Department of Finance should administer the old age pensions. I cannot say just at what moment the transfer may be made, but, at some convenient time, the administrative work in connection with old age pensions will be transferred to the new Department of National Health and Welfare.
There is also the statute relating to pensions for the blind, the administration of which will likewise be transferred to the new Department of National Health and Welfare. At the last session of parliament a statute was enacted having to do with physical fitness. At the present time it is being administered by the Department of Pensions and National Health. It will now come under the new Department of National Health and Welfare.
A number of measures relating to social welfare and human well-being are contemplated in the programme of social security already outlined by the government. One of the most important of these is that which relates to family allowances. Hon. members will have seen on the order paper a notice which I have given of a resolution upon which a bill will subsequently be based dealing with family allowances. It is intended when that measure is enacted that it will be administered by the Department of National Health and Welfare. Hon. members will realize that the administration of a measure so important and far-reaching as that will require much careful preparation. It is therefore desirable that the new department should be formed at an early day so that the measure may be in full operation at the time fixed for it to come into force.
These were measures specifically set forth in the speech from the throne, but, in addi-

tion, the speech refers to some broader aspects of social security, and to these I should like to quote in the terms of the speech itself. One paragraph to which I would draw attention is the following:
A considerable measure of social security is already provided under federal and provincial legislation, but the working out of a comprehensive national scheme, in which federal and provincial activity will be integrated and which will include nation-wide health insurance, will require further consultation and close cooperation with the provinces.
It will be seen from this paragraph that the government hopes a means may be found of integrating matters relating to social welfare, to prevent overlapping and bringing about the effective coordination of activities as between the federal and provincial governments. We contemplate working out a comprehensive national scheme in which federal and provincial activities will be integrated and which will include national health insurance.
National health insurance is a subject which has already been referred to the important committee on social security which was appointed last session and again this session. This committee has been making a full and careful study of the whole question of health insurance. It will be necessary, at some stage, for the dominion and the provinces to have conferences in order to work out a comprehensive scheme which will serve the best interests of the dominion and provinces alike.
With regard to health insurance I would point out that it is a means to an end. The end of all this social legislation is social security. Social security will be brought about by such measures as will be undertaken under the veterans' affairs and reconstruction departments and those that relate to insurance against the social and economic hazards encountered in the life of the people. The necessity for a nation-wide plan must be apparent to everyone.
As was natural, the work of social welfare was taken up in the first instance by municipalities and the provinces. Many of the provinces have social legislation on their statute books to-day. They began first with such measures as those relating to workmen's compensation, mothers' allowances, child welfare, hospitalization and other social measures. More recently the provinces have been giving much closer attention to health measures. Some have departments or branches of departments dealing with health.
It has become quite clear that without some assistance and cooperation from the federal
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government there cannot be anything in the nature of a national scheme. Differences exist between provinces in connection with the legislation enacted. Nothing could be more inimical to a nation-wide plan than to leave to mere chance, and to conditions as they arise, the enactment from time to time by the dominion and by the provinces of different measures which may be regarded as necessary. There is a necessity for some central agency that can be helpful, in cooperation with the provinces, in coordinating services, in preventing duplication and overlapping, and in seeing, when one department is behind another in some important enactment, how that difficulty may be overcome. One of the functions of the new Department of National Health and Welfare will be to cooperate in that way with the several provinces.
There is no intention whatever in this enactment of attempting to invade the jurisdiction of the provinces in these matters. I will refer to that in just a second, but before doing so I should like to read another clause of the speech from the throne which relates to this matter. The speech contemplated that this nation-wide measure of health insurance would be effected only after there had been ample opportunity for study, in both provincial and dominion fields, and after there has been opportunity of conference between the provinces and the dominion. It is not the intention of the dominion to seek to force upon any province any legislation, no matter how good it may be, by invading provincial jurisdiction. What the dominion will endeavour to do in these matters is to bring about to the advantage of the provinces and the dominion alike, proper coordination of all efforts to improve the health and well-being of the people.
The speech continues:
When suitable agreements are reached with the provinces, my ministers will be prepared to recommend measures to provide for federal assistance in a nation-wide system of health insurance, and for a national scheme of contributory old age pensions on a more generous basis that that at present in operation.
That statement in the speech makes it clear that the dominion contemplates having at some time, we hope it may be soon, not only a nation-wide system of health insurance but, as well, a national scheme of contributory old age pensions. The administration of the contributory scheme of old age pensions would be a very important function of some department of government, and it is the intention to have the Department of National Health and Welfare administer the contributory scheme once it comes into being. In the interval one of the duties of the new department will be to help to gather the necessary
factual information which will be required in conferences between the provinces and the dominion, and also to gather from the experience of other nations the kind of knowledge which would be essential for the most efficient working of the old age pension scheme.
The Minister of Finance has made it clear that once the contributory scheme is enacted it will be possible for the government to consider, to use the words of the speech, a more generous basis than that which is at present in operation. "A more generous basis", I should say, would include a lowering of the age at which persons would become entitled to old age pensions and also an increase of the amounts of the pensions themselves.
Will the house pardon me if I mention that my colleague the Minister of Finance has just sent me a note indicating that this debate should be adjourned shortly in order to enable the bills respecting the amendment to the Bank Act and the Quebec Savings Bank Act to pass this house so that they can get over to the senate as soon as may be possible, because if they are to serve the purpose for which they are intended they will have to be assented to before the 1st of July. I will conclude more quickly than I otherwise would what I have to say on the second reading, and after a reply on the part of some hon. member opposite, with the permission of the house will ask that the debate be adjourned in order that we may take up the other measures.
I have indicated fairly well the scope of the work which the new department will be expected to carry on.. I should like, however, to set forth more concretely the different measures the department will be called upon to administer and over which it will have supervision. That cannot be better done than by quoting section 5 of the bill, respecting the duties, powers and functions of the minister:
5. The duties, powers and functions of the minister shall extend to and include all matters relating to the promotion or preservation of the health, social security and social welfare of the people of Canada over which the parliament of Canada has jurisdiction, and, without restricting the generality of the foregoing, particularly the following matters:-
(a)	the administration of such acts of the parliament of Canada and of orders or regulations of the government of Canada as are not by law assigned to any other department of the government of Canada or any minister thereof relating in any way to the health, social security and welfare of the people of Canada;
(b)	investigation and research into public health and welfare;
(c)	the inspection and medical care of immigrants and seamen, and the administration of
[Stage Direction]
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marine hospitals, and such other hospitals of the government of Canada as may be committed to its administration by order of the governor in council;
(d)	the supervision, as regards the public health, of railways, boats, ships and all other methods of transportation;
(e)	the supervision of federal public buildings and offices with a view to conserving and promoting the health of the civil servants and other government employees therein;
(f)	the enforcement of any rules or regulations made by the International Joint Commission, promulgated pursuant to the treaty between the United States of America and His Majesty relating to boundary waters and questions arising between the United States of America and Canada, so far as the same relate to public health;
(g)	the administration of the Food and Drugs Act, The Opium and Narcotic Drug Act, the Quarantine Act, the Public Works Health Act, the Leprosy Act, the Proprietary or Patent Medicine Act and The National Physical Fitness Act and of all orders and regulations passed or made under any of the said acts;
(h)	subject to the provisions of the Statistics Act, the collection, publication and distribution of information relating to the public health, improved sanitation and social and industrial conditions affecting the health and lives of the people;
(i)	cooperation with provincial authorities with a view to the coordination of efforts made or proposed for preserving and improving the public health and providing for the social security and welfare of the people of Canada.
Just a word with regard to the question of jurisdiction. On the introduction of the resolution one or two hon. members suggested that this measure might be-I will not say that they did not go farther than that-an attempt on the part of the federal government to invade the jurisdiction of the provinces, or that it was an effort to centralize health and welfare matters in the federal government. Let me call attention to the words I have quoted from section 5:
.	.	. matters relating to the promotion or
preservation of the health, social security and social welfare of the people of Canada over which the parliament of Canada has jurisdiction.
Nothing could be clearer than that. The bill relates to measures over which this parliament has jurisdiction.
Mr. HANSON (York-Sumbury); I suppose the right hon. gentleman will agree that that is very limited jurisdiction.
Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: What I have read, I submit, indicates a large number of matters with which the federal government is concerned in relation to health. So far as the municipalities are concerned, and on the question of any possibility of intervention there, the hon. member who raised the point would do well to read section 8 of the bill. I quote:
8. Nothing in this act or in any regulations made hereunder shall authorize the minister or
IMr. Mackenzie King.]
any officer of the department to exercise any jurisdiction or control over any provincial or municipal board of health or other health authority operating under the laws of any province. ,
The question of jurisdiction, therefore, need not be seriously raised ini relation to this measure.
As to the necessity for a measure of this kind, a great deal has been said, particularly since the beginning of the war, of the need to conserve human resources and to give them priority in our thoughts over the conservation of what are generally referred to as natural resources. There is no doubt that the views of the world are changing with respect to the weight to be given to human values in comparison with material wealth. Human wellbeing to-day has the place in the thoughts and minds of men and women of practically all countries which was given to material wealth in years gone by. In the early years of this country's history most legislation on so-called progress was concerned with the development of the country's resources, and that work will have to go on; it should go on. But too often in the development of our natural resources we have completely neglected, indeed we have in many cases destroyed, our human resources. There is no doubt at all that factory legislation and laws relating to social amelioration have been placed on the statutes for that very reason. It was recognized that without limitations as to the hours of work, without some regulation fixing minimum rates of wages and maximum working hours, instead of conserving our human resources we were helping to destroy them. In these last four years there has been so much in the way of destruction of human life that the world probably will not for generations to come be able to make up the loss of man-power, to say nothing of the undermining in many countries of the well-being of their peoples. For this reason the necessity for having a department of government which will deal with human welfare, which will be concerned primarily with human beings and their wellbeing, is becoming increasingly apparent.
In the past we have had, for example, our Departments of Public Works, and debates have been carried on at great length in this house in the discussion of public buildings, and other forms of public works. In comparison how much time has been given to discussions on those measures so necessary for the greater health and well-being of the population? Questions like this are forcing themselves to the front, and the time has come when it should be the obligation of some minister of the crown to be specially concerned
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with matters that relate to human well-being and human welfare, whether they have been thought of in connection with provincial legislation in the past or whether both the provinces and the dominion have been concerned. Human personality, its recognition and development are of more importance than the protection of property, privilege or position and the increase of human well-being of infinitely more importance than the increase of material wealth.
The legislation which is before the house at the moment is for the purpose of developing a department of the federal government which will be primarily concerned with the human aspect of our national life. The new department will first of all continue existing services and functions of the national health divisions of pensions and national health. It will administer social security and welfare measures assigned to it from time to time. It will serve as a centre of planning and research in the fields of health, welfare and social security. It will coordinate federal administrative activities in the fields of health and welfare. It will assist in the coordination of health and welfare activities of the dominion and the provinces with a view to bringing about a comprehensive national scheme to include nation-wide health insurance; it will be charged with the administration of family allowances and when it is enacted with the administration of the national scheme of contributory old age pensions.
A word in conclusion as to one or two matters that the department will not immediately concern itself with. It is not a department' of social security. Social security is a comprehensive aim and is the objective of all social legislation. The means to that end differ. Health insurance is one of the means to that end. Health insurance and social insurance of other kinds are means of helping to ensure social security; but the most important means of achieving the end of social security is full employment. Therefore all measures that will contribute to full employment may be regarded as social security measures. But these must come under many departments of the government. For example, we have been discussing in the last few days, matters under the Department of Reconstruction which have to do with employment in one form or another. Employment is the concern of the Department of Labour and other departments of government. The Department of Veterans! Affairs is a department that by its different measures will help to effect social security. Unemployment insurance is one form of social insurance; it
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is not itself social security. It is a means, as I say, to that end. The administration of unemployment insurance is entrusted at the present time to the Department of Labour. At the moment it is not the intention to transfer its administration from the Department of Labour to the Department of National Health and Welfare, and the reason is obvious. A very important part of the work of the Department of Labour related to reconstruction is that connected with selective service and the various offices which have to do with employment services. These two-services are closely interrelated, for that reason alone it would not be desirable to think at present of transferring the administration of unemployment insurance to the new department. As time goes on, it may be, as social services increase, there will be here or elsewhere as between different departments of government of the federal administration, further transfers and arrangements.
The magnitude of the problems involved in a broad extension of social security and welfare makes it essential to have a separata department and a full-time minister, if the' federal programme is to be administered! efficiently and federal policies properly coordinated with provincial and local activities-..
We have talked a great deal about the new social order that is to come into existence after this war is over. Speaking on that subject, as I have from time to time, I have emphasized the note that unless that new social order is well under way before the war itself is over we may look for it in vain after that time. I hope that the measures which the government has introduced at this session, establishing these three departments, veterans" affairs, reconstruction, national health and: welfare, and1 all of which relate in an immediateway to post-war planning, are sufficient evidence that this administration has very much in mind the great social problems which will: confront this country immediately the war is; over, and that we are not waiting for the end of the war before providing the means needed properly to effect their solution.


Mr. GORDON GRAYDON (Leader of the Opposition):: 
Mr. LEADER:: Mr. Speaker, I have been
asked to adjourn the debate but before doing so I want to say a few words on a question of privilege. Last night there was an understanding that we would take up first this legislation,

Quebec Savings Banks Act
which we have done. Now we are to revert to other bills which the Prime Minister declares it is imperative to have passed before the 1st of July. No intimation had I received that this procedure was to 'be followed. Can you imagine the howl which would have gone up from the other side of the house had an arrangement been made with them and then this sudden change was made in the procedure? They1 would never have stood for it. But as a humble member of this house I must accommodate myself to the convenience of the government to facilitate the business of the house if there are other measures which they wish to take up. I have been told that these other two bills will pass swiftly because members on the opposite side of the house have agreed not to discuss .them. But I know what might happen to what I have to say if I move the adjournment of this debate, because I have seen it happen in the house before. I have seen a member move the adjournment of a debate, and the debate was never resumed during that session. That might happen in this case. I have no guarantee. I assume it is understood that this bill will be taken up again immediately after the two money bills are disposed of. If for any reason, as I explained to the Prime Minister last night, I am unable to be here, may I claim the privilege to speak on section 5 of this bill before it passes? I do not ask for an assurance, but that is the position I am taking in adjourning this debate. I may sit here if I am able to until it comes on. If I can I will be here. With these remarks, Mr. Speaker, which I make with no particular animosity but with a little disappointment, I move the adjournment of the debate.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: In reply to my hon. friend, as a matter of privilege, if he will recall, I intimated last night that the bank bills would be taken up first.


Harry Leader: That is true.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My hon. friend said that he wished to speak for forty minutes on a matter of importance relating to health. It was then twenty minutes to eleven o'clock and, out of what I felt of consideration for him, I suggested that instead of his taking twenty minutes then and going on again and concluding what he had to say to-day, it would be better for him to wait until to-day to make his speech without having it broken. My hon. friend agreed to that.


Harry Leader: I appreciated the arrangement.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: 

BANK ACT AMENDMENT


[Stage Direction]
Mr. D. C. ABBOTT (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance) moved the second reading of bill No. 147, to amend the Bank Act.
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, considered in committee, reported, read the third time and passed.


[Stage Direction]
Mr. D. C. ABBOTT (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance) moved the second reading of bill No. 148, to amend the Quebec Savings Banks Act.
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Bradette in the chair.
On section 1-Certain charters continued.
Mr. COLDWELL:: Mr. Chairman, as we have always hoped that some day the banks of Canada may be owned by the nation, perhaps I might say a word at this time. The bill
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to extend the charters of the banks has been approved by the house, and the banking and commerce committee is now in session discussing the amendments to these charters. I see no objection to this bill going through. I think it is proper for the government to extend the charters for two months in view of the anticipated report of the committee to the house. I wanted to make this brief explanation of our support of the extension of the charters for the ensuing two months.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I should like to ask the parliamentary assistant to thp Minister of Finance if he.expects that ive shall get to the Bank Act by September 1?


Mr. ABBOTT:: I have always carefully refrained from indulging in prophecy, and I think I will continue that practice.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed consideration of the motion of Mr. Mackenzie King for the second reading of Bill No. 149, to establish a Department of National Health and Welfare.
Harry Leader: Mr. Speaker, this bill affords me an opportunity to discuss what might be termed the almost forgotten man. Lest anyone should have any doubt as to the theme of my remarks this afternoon, I state now that I intend to deal with the Davidson cancer cure and try to give the latest developments which have taken place since this matter was first introduced into this house.
I was glad to note the reference by the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) to the intention of cooperating with the provinces under this legislation. I know that that is extremely necessary, because under that musty old statute called the British North America Act, which was passed seventy-seven years ago, the federal government is pretty well tied up when it comes to dealing with matters within the jurisdiction of the provinces. That has happened in connection with the investigation which we tried to have into Doctor Davidson's work, and I think this bill will have the effect of creating a better understanding between the provinces and the federal government.
When I first undertook to press for a recognition of Doctor J. R. Davidson's work, I approached the medical association of the city of Winnipeg where Doctor Davidson resides.

I thought that that was the proper procedure to follow. However, I was informed that Doctor Davidson was a stubborn old man who would not play ball with the rest of the profession. That statement astounded me, because I was under the impression from my conversations with Doctor Davidson that he had offered everything he had discovered to the medical profession through the medical periodicals which are printed from time to time. However, he did tell me that there was some difference of opinion and that he found it better to explore his own clue and follow it through to the end without having any suggestions from others, however well-meAning they might be. He was carrying on his research work more or less independently of the medical profession. At all times the information in regard to his experiments was available to the medical profession if they so desired. I found Doctor J. R. Davidson of Winnipeg a very amiable and conscientious man, willing to cooperate with anyone, and as evidence of the truth of what I say I will read a short paragraph from a letter he wrote to the medical committee of the national research council when he applied for a grant. And by the way, let it be remembered that the medical committee of the research council refused Doctor Davidson the grant to carry on research work on the ground that the answers he had given to their questions were not on a scientific basis. Let me say in passing that I have never heard Doctor Davidson say one word derogatory to the medical profession or any person belonging thereto. This is what he writes:
It _ is my earnest hope that through the decision of your committee the medical profession of Canada will be able to preserve for the future whatever elements of value there may be in my treatment. In that event I would be happy and would feel that my life work had not been done in vain.
That is the attitude he took towards the medical profession even to the last, when he was turned down by the medical committee of the research council.
And now may I say a word with reference to the doctors. I know they can speak for themselves, but I have had a good deal of experience with doctors. They have helped me in many crises in my life, and I am not going to say that they are one of the finest classes of people; I will say that they are the finest men we have in our citizenry. More particularly do I say this having regard to the old pioneer doctors who, without the aid of automobiles or any of the other modern methods of transport, -went to their patients, no road being too long, no night too dark, no fee too small for those men in the pioneer
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days. And all through the years the doctors have conformed to that pattern, even the modern doctors of to-day.
It has been said that I have no right to speak on a scientific question of this sort. Mr. Speaker, I speak from experience; I speak from the practical standpoint; and while I have said a word for the doctors, I am speaking at the same time for those who are afflicted with this terrible disease, and from my experience as a victim of it, coming from a clinic after an exploratory operation faking two hours. It was not just a physical exploration, because there is a ten-inch incision where they operated and found my case hopeless. I speak from experience, knowing what Doctor Davidson has done for me, and my heart bleeds for those in a similar condition. I therefore dare to get up and speak even on a scientific question.
I have done what I could to spread this gospel. Of 7,000 copies of the speech which I made in this house on February 7 last, over 6,000 have been distributed throughout Canada. I am receiving letters from all over the country, and public opinion is behind my efforts. If the government does not know it, it is time it did. I had occasion to be in Calgary during the first week of April and they arranged a meeting for me. We did not have a large meeting, but it was a meeting that was in deadly earnest, and I am still getting reports from people who are working throughout that city asking that the government take some steps to safeguard the discoveries of this great Canadian, Doctor J. R. Davidson. I had a meeting in my own city and later I am going to read a resolution that was passed there. I may say that a Mr. Pugsley, who represents the legislative committee of the railway associations of British Columbia, has been in Winnipeg during the past week making a private investigation of the work of Doctor Davidson. That is the work that is going on throughout the country, and yet we find the federal government and the government of Manitoba, who are just as guilty, passing the buck. There is no other term that fits the situation.
The resolution from which I am about to quote was endorsed by the city council of Portage la Prairie, by the rural council of Portage la Prairie, and, the other day, by the Manitoba federation of agriculture. I am not going to quote the whole resolution because it would take too much time.


Mr. MacNICOL:: Take time to quote it. It is important.


Harry Leader: I want you to notice that the resolution asks for a full and fair investigation open to the press and to the public, and in passing I would say that the very opposite is the attitude taken by the medical committee of the research council. While I was in Winnipeg a representative of the research council said to me, "Mr. Leader, we will have an investigation if you are determined, but let it be in camera. These patients that you talk about do not want their private affairs exposed to the world. I think it would be better for you, for the patients, and for the medical profession, if we are to have an investigation, not to carry it out in the daylight." These resolutions, however, and the attitude of Doctor Davidson, request a fair investigation open to the press and to the public. Their idea is to let the people judge as well as the tribunal which will make the investigation. I quote from the report of the meeting that was held in Portage la Prairie:
A full and fair investigation into the Doctor Davidson cancer treatment, to be open to the public and the press, was also endorsed by resolution.
Reverting to the resolution passed at the meeting in Portage la Prairie, it was held under the auspices of the board of trade, being a mass meeting in the largest theatre in the city, which was filled almost to the doors. Those present were enthusiastic and the resolution was endorsed unanimously. I will not read the preamble, but here is the substance of the resolution-the Prime Minister has a copy; if he has not, then they did not follow my suggestion:
Now therefore be it resolved that in view of the ever growing menace of cancer ;to the national health, we urgently request the federal government and the provincial government of Manitoba, acting either separately or in cooperation, to hold without further delay a full and fair investigation into the Davidson cancer treatment. It is essential in our opinion that this investigation should be open to the press and the public.
Now perhaps a word in regard to mortality from cancer as compared with war. I made the statement last night to the Prime Minister that the matter which I wished to discuss was in my opinion, in some aspects, more important than even the war itself. Anyone who wishes to do so may qualify that statement, but in my opinion there are aspects of this disease which present a more important problem. In the first four months of the war-scarcely four months, in 1939-there were estimated to be 4,383 deaths from cancer.


John Ritchie MacNicol: In Canada?


Mr. COLD  WELL@: Put everything on the Mr. LEADER: In Canada. These figures record.	are from the bureau of statistics and they are

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complete. In 1940 there were 13,332 deaths from cancer; in 1941 there were 13,417; and in 1942 there were 13,654. In 1943 there were 14,000; in the first six months of 1944-this is an estimate-there were 7,000. The house can see that there is a progressive increase year after year, and this goes on not only in war time but in peace time. One would think that any government or individual would be so keen to find anything that would stop the. ravages of this fatal disease that they would) jump at almost any clue that was submitted. That makes a total of 61,403 deaths. I have not the latest figures of the casualties of this war, but I think the number of heroes that we have lost amounts to 20,000. I think I am conservative in saying that that number have given their lives in the service of their country. That means that for every Canadian soldier who has lost his life so far in this war three people have died in this country from cancer. This would verify the statement that in some respects it is even of more importance from the point of view of casualties than the war itself.
Now, in regard to cancer, I am not a scientist, yet I have received information from those who are. I am told there is no cure for cancer unless it is treated in its early stages. That is the information I have received from the Mayo clinic; that is the information I have received from many doctors. Do not confuse my argument. I am not saying there is no cure for cancer, but I am saying on the authority of the best medical men in this country that there is no cure for cancer in its late stages. Doctor Davidson, that poineer doctor, when as a consulting physician in the hospital in Winnipeg he saw case after case of cancer coming in for treatment, diagnosed as cancer in which an operation was the only thing that would solve the problem or help the situation, and most of them dying, decided that he would give the rest of his life to trying to find a preventive. I want the house to remember that above all others his work has been along that line. He has been seeking the prevention of cancer rather than a cure.
Doctor Davidson believes that cancer is caused by a nutritional deficiency in our diet. I do not know how tru.e that is, but I can speak of my case. I would not be here to-day were it not for the vitamin treatment of Doctor Davidson in Winnipeg. You can take that for what it is worth. I have been told that the patients do not know anything about it. Well, we may not know how it is done, but we do know when it is done. Doctor Davidson is not the only man who has been experimenting along this line. I was told by a friend of mine in Winnipeg that I would find information in a publication, the name of which I

forget at the moment, but I think it is the annual review of the national research council, to the effect that many medical doctors are experimenting in England and in the United States, and quite a number in Canada and perhaps throughout the world along similar lines.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I know of three in
Ontario.
Mr. LEADER; They have been experimenting along this line, and some day we are going to honour the medical man who finds either a cure or a preventive for cancer. The medical profession is looking for it. Doctor Davidson said that he wanted the medical profession to receive all the information that he has. He believes that they are the ones who should carry on the work. With all these doctors and scientists throughout the world, along with Doctor Davidson, exploring the theory of deficiency in diet, it may be that he is the one who has the clue. Perhaps Doctor Davidson is the one who will show the light to the rest of the world in regard to the prevention of cancer. If we could get some preventive for cancer we would need no cure. That is obvious.
On this point I wish to say that I think more money-and I 'believe it was announced by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley) last night-should be made available for research work, especially medical research, in Canada. But at the same time, if Doctor Davidson's work is ignored, how is it going to affect the young scientists who want to follow that line of work? It would not be an incentive to any young doctor to undertake this work if men like Doctor Davidson, a pioneer doctor, experimenting for over thirty years, and who has something which I will show the house before I finish if I am given the time, is ignored.
I said something about the medical profession not being keen on accepting Doctor Davidson's theories, and that is very evident. I wish to tell you, Mr. Speaker, that my last speech had much publicity. I had it printed in pamphlet form, and one of the requests I received came from one of the South American republics. I sent a number of copies and today those speeches are translated by the government into the Spanish language and are used by the government cancer clinic of the Dominican republic. I saw two letters in Doctor Davidson's office from research men- I believe they were institutes-asking Doctor Davidson if he would come to California and carry on his experiments there. I have recently received word that two requests have come from England for Doctor Davidson to give some information on his work and perhaps
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emigrate to the old country. He does not want to go. Do we want to lose him? Is there not room in Canada for men of that type? I say to the Prime Minister that if Doctor Davidson's method is sufficiently attractive to foreign countries to cause them to seek information about it, it should be taken up by the Canadian government.
It is nearly a year since this matter came before the house. It was brought up by the hon. member for Fort William (Mr. Mclvor) and then by the hon. member for St. Boniface (Mr. Howden). Both hon. members suggested that the government should assist Doctor Davidson in some form or other to carry on his research work. As I said before, nearly a year has gone by. It might be well to go back and look at the figures I submitted a while ago. Approximately 14,000 of our people have perished from cancer in that time and no action has been taken. Speaking according to my own conscience, Mr. Speaker, I will say it would charge me with criminal negligence if I did not undertake to bring this matter before the house at every opportunity that presents itself until some action is taken by those in authority.
It would be unfair for me to leave the impression that the Minister of Pensions and National Health has not been very sympathetic; I believe he tried to do his best within his limited power, but sympathy is not going to get us anywhere in regard to this case. We want definite action.


Mr. KUHL:: Who was the nigger in the
woodpile?


Harry Leader: It was first referred by the minister to the medical committee of the research council, which was not the proper thing to do, and I so stated in my first speech. Why? Because it was prejudged by some of the members of the research council, at any rate. That is not a proper tribunal to make an investigation into this matter. Nevertheless it was submitted to the national research council and they gave their verdict which, as I expected, was that Doctor Davidson was not entitled to a grant to help him carry on his work. Then the minister referred the matter to the Manitoba government, and asked the medical faculty of the university of Manitoba to conduct an investigation. The president of the university said they would be glad to do so, but made his acceptance provisional. He said, "We want to make a thorough investigation, and to call witnesses. This will entail some expense, which we expect the federal government to defray." That was the condition on which the university undertook to
100-269}
carry on the investigation. I know the minister explored the possibility of giving the province some financial aid, but came up against the British North America Act and could not make a move.
Then what happened? The minister referred the matter again to the national research council, and I do not agree with that action. Now let me give the latest information as to what the government has in hand at the present time. The document I have in my hand, which is authentic, declares that-
-the dominion has no jurisdiction to investigate its remedial aspects. It would, therefore, appear to be a provincial matter, and it is regretted that there is no further action which can be taken.
So it is left to the government of Manitoba, and! perhaps we should look into the attitude of that government, which is set out in a short quotation I have here. It is a statement in the press attributed to Premier Garson, and reads:
Premier Stuart S. Garson suggested in the-Manitoba legislature Monday that no financial assistance be given to Doctor J. R. Davidson of Winnipeg in his cancer research until a report on the work is made by the medical faculty of the university of Manitoba.
Mr. Garson said dominion pensions minister Ian Mackenzie had requested the medical faculty to conduct a further examination of Doctor Davidson's vitamin cancer treatment experiments. "We would be derelict in our responsibility if this house made a grant to assist Doctor Davidson before the report has been, received," he said.
To be fair to the premier of Manitoba it must be stated that when he made this statement he was under the impression that an investigation was to be undertaken by the university of Manitoba; but that is the attitude of the government of that province. Now I am coming to the most important part of my remarks.


Major James William Coldwell: What would1 prevent the federal government from making a grant?


Harry Leader: The British North America Act.


Major James William Coldwell: But under the War Measures Act we are making grants of all kinds for every purpose.


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: The Department of Justice advised against it.


Harry Leader: The Prime Minister said I had asked for an hour; I really thought it was forty minutes, but it will take me fifteen, minutes to read these letters; for this is the evidence I want to submit to this house. This is the evidence I am breaking my heart to bring before the appropriate authorities in the
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Department of National Health and W elf are
matter of an investigation into Doctor Davidson's work. This is worth more to me than all your scientific questionnaires or scientific methods of carrying on your work. These letters are from the patients themselves. I have ten letters here, written to me at my request. I asked Doctor Davidson's office in Winnipeg to get me some personal testimonials if possible, that it might be necessary for me to have some more ammunition. These letters were written and sent to me direct, with authority to use them in any way that might assist Doctor Davidson in his research work.
I can give the name and address of the writer of each letter if it is the wish of the house that I do so.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Go ahead.


Harry Leader: The first letter is from the wife of a man who was suffering from cancer, and is as follows:
Dear Mr. Leader:
Received Dr. Davidson's letter to-day requesting we write you giving details of my husband's case. We have felt, like you, there should be some recognition of his treatment before his own health fails.
My husband's illness was caused by X-ray burns, the same being given for treatment of . cancerous growths. The first growth appeared on his forehead about eleven years ago and diagnosed as cancer. A skin grafting was done. Four years later another growth and more grafting. Two years ago another growth which did not respond to grafting and ulcerated. X-ray taken which showed bone involved and diagnosed carcinoma, type 4.
Dermatologists who saw him in Detroit in April, 1943, said he could live only a matter of a few months.
June 1943 doctors at Mayo clinic who saw X-rays said nothing more could be done.
In July he was losing weight and strength rapidly and weighed 149 pounds. Considerable pain in head. In desperation we left the 24th of. July for Winnipeg to see Doctor Davidson after reading in the papers about him. In fact, Mr. Leader, you opened Doctor Davidson's office door for us the morning we arrived. You were just leaving and Doctor Davidson told us who you were.
The first week in Winnipeg he spent in bed [DOT]except to walk from the Marlborough Hotel, one-half block from Doctor Davidson's office, *once a day. After the first week's treatment he was able to be up the greater part of the day. He now weighs 1C9 pounds-twenty .pounds gained and is very active with scarcely any pain. He continues faithfully with the treatment.
Doctor Davidson did not say he could cure him due to the extreme X-ray burn which destroyed cells of the skin but he did say he could retard the progress of the disease which he certainly has done and we are certainly grateful. My husband is only 44 years of age and he certainly is not willing to give up and
[DOT](Mr. Leader.]
has two lovely children to live for. If there is anything we can do please let us know. Thank you for the good work you are trying to do.
Sincerely,
(Sgd.) Mrs. Frank Penhole,
98 Gladstone Avenue,
St. Thomas, Ontario.
The next letter is from West Kildonan, Winnipeg, and is as follows:
Sir,
I am a housewife of Winnipeg.
I have had a very serious illness, and had to he operated on for cancer. The operation was performed on the 20th of March, 1943.
Afterwards my doctor said there was nothing more could be done for me and that I could only live six months, or a year, at most. I had heard of Doctor Davidson so consulted him. I underwent his treatment (and still do) and I must say that I have improved greatly from it. I have gained about seven pounds in weight. I eat well, and what is more important I sleep well, and I have every confidence in Doctor Davidson and feel quite sure I will be cured. I have been examined by my previous doctors (since undergoing this treatment) and they are astonished at the change and they report that there is no further growth of the cancer.
I had read of your taking up Doctor Davidson's case in the house so I thought I would write and let you know the benefit I have got from being treated by him.
Very truly yours,
(Sgd.) Mrs. Annie Faickney,
184 Belmont Avenue, West Kildonan, Winnipeg.
The next letter is from a gentleman who lives in Miami, Manitoba, as follows:
Dear Sir,
In 1939 I had a large painful growth on my left groin. I had it examined by five surgeons, including Doctor Rutherford MacCharles and they all agreed it was a sarcoma. The only treatment they could advise was an operation, and I was given to understand an operation for sarcoma was very unsatisfactory and usually caused it to spread to other parts of the body. I went, to Doctor Davidson and commenced the high vitamin diet and in November radio malt, wheat germ, high vitamin pills, etc. For two weeks I stayed in Winnipeg and he gave me a hypo in the arm daily of egg serum. I went home then and continued the diet and the fertile incubated egg treatment. The growth began to soften first and gradually got smaller. After a month's treatment I could walk short distances without pain. By spring the growth had disappeared and I had the full use of my leg again.
I went to Morden hospital near the end of March and had Doctor Menziers remove a gland where the growth had been and sent to Winnipeg for a biopsy but I was too late doing this as there was nothing left of it.
The treatment, in addition to taking away the growth, improved my health greatly. At fifty-seven I can do more heavy work on the farm than I could for many years.
Yours truly,
(Sgd.) H. H. Storey.
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Department oj National Health and Welfare
The next letter is from Mrs. Frances Eakin, addressed to me, and is as follows:
Beaver Valley Fur Farm,
Octsa Lake, B.C.
March 3, 1944.
Mr. Harry Leader, M.P.,
House of Commons,
Ottawa, Ont.
Dear Sir:
This letter is with reference to the treatment for cancer I received from Doctor J. R. Davidson of Winnipeg.
Here is a short history of my case. I went to Vancouver in January, 1942, where I was operated on and a growth removed from the womb. A frozen analysis was taken of the growth by the pathological at St. Paul's Hospital in that city and it showed that the growth was cancerous. The operation was followed by x-ray and radium treatments. When I got well enough I returned to my home and before six months were up found myself with a secondary growth in the bowels. I returned to Vancouver where they performed a colostimy operation, supposedly to relieve me. When I got back on my feet again after this operation they told me I would only live six months or a year at most which was quite a blow as I was only ' 32 years of age.
In March 1943 I went to Doctor Davidson and took his treatment for five months. At the end of that time I was so well I was able to come home. I have been home now for almost six months, feeling fine and able to do my own work.
Doctor Davidson's treatment benefited me to the extent that I know I would not be living to-day if it had not been for his treatment.
At the present time I am feeling fine and have no trouble except with the colostimy operation which was unnecessary in the first place.
My husband joins with me in wishing you every success in your appeal to the government for help for the doctor. We think he richly deserves it.
Yours very truly,
Mrs. Frances Eakin.
The next letter is as follows:
Libau, Manitoba, February 22, 1944.
H. Leader, M.P.,
Ottawa, Canada.
Dear Sir:
Having followed your sincere endeavours at obtaining a grant for Doctor J. R. Davidson s cancer research through the daily papers I would like to help you all I can in that direction. It is not necessary for me to outline Mrs. Wanag's case history in this letter as you already have it among other of Doctor Davidson's case histories. I do wish to emphasize the fact, as you will note from enclosed letter, that the Winnipeg clinic could do nothing more for her in July, 1943. She took her first treatment from Doctor Davidson on July 23, 1943. and continued improving remarkably until about the end of November, 1943, when due to scarcity of help Mrs. Wanag did too much work at home and her improvement has been considerably retarded. Then she also had a severe
attack of lumbago during January, 1944, which caused her terrible pain and suffering. The lumbago has now all but left her due to Doctor Davidson sending her to a masseuse for eight treatments. I expect she should now continue to show some improvement in her fight against the cancer. She strictly follows all diet and prescriptions, et cetera, and has faith in Doctor Davidson's treatment, because she is definitely better than she was during July of last year.
Then follow two short paragraphs which, to . save time, I shall not read.


Major James William Coldwell: Take all the time you wish.


Harry Leader: The letter I have just read is from J. L. Wanag. The next letter is as follows:
Kenora, Feb. 25, 1944,
327 2nd Street South.
Mr. Harry Leader, M.P.,
House of Commons,
Ottawa, Ontario.
Dear Mr. Leader:
Having seen through the medium of the newspapers of the interest you are taking in trying to bring to the attention of the government the wonderful strides in cancer research being made by Doctor J. R. Davidson, of the Somerset Building Winnipeg, Manitoba. And feeling that every bit of evidence which may be placed in your hands should be provided, in order to get the government to realize that the Doctor is worthy of their support in every way. I am writing you this letter to be used in any way you think best, hoping that it may in its own poor way aid you in bringing about that recognition.
I was suffering from cancer of quite long standing and, like so many so afflicted, deferred getting medical attention until it was almost too late. Having the natural human antipathy to anything surgical, when I did commence to get medical advice about my trouble, tried those mediums which I believed would give me relief without recourse to the use of the knife. But to-no a vail, for these things did me no good whatever. Finally I heard from an acquaintance of long standing that she had been cured of a cancerous growth by taking the treatments-afforded by Doctor Davidson, and I became one of his patients.
Doctor Davidson did not mince matters when he examined me, but told me what disease I was suffering from and that it was a case of operation, for I had left it too long to be cured otherwise. _ But. I did start to take the treatments provided by him and continued -them for several weeks, as .a build up, preparatory to the operation. I am as convinced as I am that I am alive right now that the treatments that I received in Doctor Davidson's office- laid the; foundation for me to come through the operation as I have, for that is behind me now. I also-firmly believe that a continuation of the treatment for a period of time will eventually cleanse my blood of anything cancerous, and that I will' again be as healthy as ever I was in all my lifetime.
I believe that the citizenry of the country owe a great debt of gratitude to Doctor
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Department of National Health and Welfare
Davidson for his untiring research for a cure for cancer. I know that I do personally and I am sure that you are making no mistake in furthering his cause. I am.
Respectfully yours,
Pearly Doan.
The next letter is as follows:
% Sobie Silk Shops,
Regina, Sask., Feb. 23, 1943. Mr. Harry Leader, M.P.,
Portage la Prairie, Man.
Dear Mr. Leader:
I have just received a letter from Doctor J. R. Davidson, Winnipeg, stating you have requested that patients who have been treated by him for cancer write to you direct, and it gives me a great satisfaction to be given the opportunity. Following is a brief history of my case and a statement of the present condition of my health.
I was operated on for an abdominal tumor *at the Grey Nuns hospital, Regina, on February 8, 1943. A large eyst envolving the right ovary was removed and section of same showed signs of malignancy. I was referred to the Cancer Clinic on report of section and was given a series of forty deep X-ray therapy treatments after which I was given a complete examination and informed there was not any sign of a recurrence. However, with the gradual return of pain even while I was still receiving X-ray treatments I naturally became alarmed. By the end of June there was a steady throbbing pain in my lower left side where an unnatural full-mess was evident. I attempted to go back to work in July (my occupation being that of a saleslady), but toward the end of the second *week in August I did not feel equal to work any longer. On the 16th of August I went to Winnipeg and consulted Doctor Davidson who immediately began treating me. At the end of five weeks of treatment the pain was definitely subsiding, and after ten weeks of treatment the pain was negligible and the distended feeling was also disappearing. By the time I had received three and one-half months' treatment I did not have any more pain, had more energy and slept better and felt better than I had for years. I came back to Regina on the 21st of November, have worked every day since and have gained in weight and strength while working.
Sincerely hoping Doctor Davidson's method of treatment of Cancer will be made available to all with the least possible delay, I am, Gratefully,
Perley B. Dohlen.
The next letter is as follows:
Miami, Man.
Dear Mr. Leader:
I want to tell you how much I have been benefited in health by Doctor J. R. Davidson's treatment for cancer.
Three years ago I had cancer in the throat. It was as large as a good sized plum and I spent most of the summer in and out of bed. I took the treatment by Doctor Davidson for three weeks.
In two weeks it made the lump soft and let down enough swelling so that Doctor Davidson could get in my mouth to heal the sore. I stayed one week more then came home and continued [DOT]on the treatment at home. By spring it began
IMr. Leader.]	;	. j |
to feel pretty good and was able to do a little work. Now I am able to work from morning until night. In summer I look after 25 hives of bees, help with the chickens and do all the home sewing. I am sure if it had not of been for Doctor Davidson's treatment I would not be here to-day.
Miss Frances Fry.
The next letter is as follows:
Inwood, Man.
Feb. 23, 1944.
Mr. Harry Leader, M.P.
House of Commons,
Ottawa, Ont.
Dear Mr. Leader:
I read with much interest your speech given in the House of Commons on February 7, re Doctor J. R. Davidson and his work on cancer. I wish to say that I developed cancer in the breast and I went to Doctor Davidson for treatment, which I am sure helped me very much in building up my resistance prior to the operation which was very successful, after which I went to Doctor Davidson for further treatment which is proving to be a great success. The present condition of my health is very good thanks to Doctor Davidson's treatment.
With best regards, I remain,
Your truly,
Mrs. Julia Lanham.


Mr. SPEAKER:: The hon. member's time has expired.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Go ahead.


Mr. GILLIS:: Put it on the record.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, I rise to a point of order. I do not in any way seek to curtail the remarks of the hon. member, and I quite agree that he should be given permission to continue until he has concluded. There are special reasons why I think the house should be specially considerate of the hon. member, when he brings forward a matter for consideration concerning which he feels as deeply as he does about the one on which he has been speaking. I believe, however, it is important that there should be some understanding as to the latitude to be allowed in the discussion of measures on second reading. We are now dealing with a bill to create a new department of government. It is a matter of administration, and the question for debate is as to whether a department is or is not to be established. We are not being asked to decide upon or to debate all the possible matters which may or should come before that department; we are not at present to discuss the merits or otherwise of such matters.
This afternoon the hon. member-and from his point of view, very sincerely-has been discussing the question of the treatment of cancer, and the action the government should take. It seems to me that is a subject which the house might properly consider when an
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estimate is before us, as for example when we are discussing grants by the federal government to public bodies for purposes of research.
I do not see how we can possibly get through the business of the session this year if latitude of the kind being permitted at the moment to the hon. member is to be permitted in connection with the discussion of further measures.
I know that there was wide latitude granted in discussing the question of reconstruction, but matters of reconstruction were related immediately to the bill, because there is not in existence a department in the nature of a reconstruction department. But we have at the present time a Department of Pensions and National Health; it is in existence, and it seems to me that, if the particular subject of cancer research were to be discussed at all, it should be discussed in connection with the work of that department and not mixed up ' with the question as to whether we are to establish a new department of government. I submit very respectfully to Your Honour that there should be some very careful limitation placed on the rights of members when discussion takes place on all kinds of things on second reading of a measure that is specifically for one purpose and one purpose only.


Mr. COLD  WELL@: Mr. Speaker, may I say something on the point of order raised by the Prime Minister? Private members have been denied the right to discuss private members' resolutions during the session, and1 that may have something to do with cases of this sort arising. May I point out, too, that the hon. member himself is not in particularly good health. We do not know when the departmental estimates upon which this matter could be discussed will be taken up, and I think it is in the interests of the house and of the government and of the country that the hon. member should be accorded the courtesy which I know the Prime Minister wishes to accord to him, and that he should this afternoon, in spite of the fact that the business of the bouse presses as I know, be given all the time he requires to present the case that he is making. I hope that the hon. member himself, and you, Mr. Speaker, will not feel obliged to curtail his remarks in any respect.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: May I say to my hon. friend that I made it quite clear that I did not wish to curtail his remarks. What I am seeking to impress on the house and on His Honour the Speaker is that if we are going to regard this as a precedent we may have some other member follow the hon. member and begin to deal with the question of tuberculosis, and then someone else take up some other disease about which he also feels
very deeply. It is part of my duty as leader of the bouse to see that its business is expedited and also that it is carried on in accordance with the rules.


Major James William Coldwell: I think the house will support the Prime Minister if some other member attempts to regard this as a precedent. That is what should be done, except under the very special circumstances under which the hon. member is speaking this afternoon.


Thomas Vien: I recall, as the Prime Minister has pointed out, that in the debate on reconstruction I was in extreme difficulty to know what was relevant and what was not relevant, but it seemed to be the wish of the house that there should be more or less latitude given in that debate, and it was so given. To-day I have also been considering the relevancy of the remarks made by the hon. member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Leader) and I came to the conclusion that while his remarks were not strictly relevant to the bill I would prefer that the point should be raised before the house. To-day the hon. member has spoken with the full acceptance of the house under circumstances in which I have perhaps extended my powers in order to give him this opportunity.
But the point of order having been raised I must say that the hon. member's remarks are somewhat irrelevant to the bill and might more properly be discussed on some estimate or other proceeding before the house. The hon. member is now concluding, but I would point out this, as I did in the debate on reconstruction, that while relevancy after all is a very broad term, it has some degree of certitude with regard to the provisions of a bill. We are dealing with the setting up of a department, and now that the point of order has been raised, I shall endeavour to keep the house to the terms of the bill.


Mr. HOWDEN:: I would like to point out to Your Honour that in the body of the bill reference is made to research. The subject which the hon. member for Portage la Prairie has been discussing is a festering sore which has to be dealt with at some time in this country, and we might as well deal with it at some convenient time because it will go on until we get to the bottom of it. Truth will prevail, and we might as well know just what the truth is. Let us get to the bottom of it and know just where we are at.


Thomas Vien: The hon. member realizes that the hon. member for Portage la Prairie has now exceeded his time. His forty minutes have expired.
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Department of National Health and Welfare


Harry Leader: I wish to speak to the point of order, Your Honour. I appreciate the Prime Minister's anxiety, but I cannot say that I am so sanguine over his point of order. This is a bill to establish a department of national health, and if the subject of cancer is not a part of national health, I am all wrong. I was going to make this suggestion: I could have been finished by now if I had not been interrupted. There are three more letters here that I wished to read. May I ask that they be included in Hansard without being read, with the permission of the house? Then I shall conclude my remarks.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Certainly.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Major James William Coldwell: I think the house would wish to give that permission and to hear the hon. member finish what he has to say.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


Harry Leader: I thank the hon. member and those who agree with him. The three letters are as follows:
428 Wardlaw Ave., Winnipeg, Man.,
Feb. 23, 1944.
Mr. Harry Leader, M.P.,
House of Commons,
Ottawa, Ontario.
Dear Sir:
I have been following your efforts as published in the local press regarding a government grant to Doctor J. R. Davidson to further his work on cancer research, and thought you might like to hear of my mother's case.
I took her to Dr. Davidson when she was eighty-one years of age. He has treated her for several years. Last summer she was able to travel to Toronto alone to visit Ed. Young, who is no doubt a friend of yours, as he was member for Weyburn for many years. She will be eighty-six in March. I would not say she has been cured, but the lump which had been diagnosed as cancer has disappeared from her breast and she has not suffered. It was difficult for the doctor to get her to eat the things she should as people of that age dislike changes in their diet. I
I am quite certain of one thiDg, and that is that she would not have been spared this long had it not been for Dr. Davidson's treatment.
I was in to see him a short time ago and he does not look any too well.
I do hope something will be done to further his work and honour him for he is a real doctor. If there is anything else I can do to help this worthy cause please advise me.
I might state that we are real old timers in \\ innipeg having lived here for over sixty years.
Yours sincerely,
A. W. Peebles.
814 2nd St. S., Kenora, Ontario, February 21/44.
Mr. H. Leader, M.P.,
House of Commons,
Ottawa.
Dear Sir:
I have been interested in your efforts to point out to the dominion government the valuable work being done by Dr. J. R. Davidson. As a recent patient, having been dismissed just three days ago with a 100 per cent cure, I would like to add my testimony in the hope that it may have some small weight in promoting Dr. Davidson's discovery.
A. short time ago I consulted Dr. Davidson with regard to a lump in my breast. I had known of this condition for over two years, but as it was not inconvenient or painful, I postponed medical attention. A few months ago the lump grew larger and I became worried. At the time I consulted Dr. Davidson I was very run down physically and suffering from nervous strain. When the doctor examined my condition he advised six weeks' treatments, diet, and injections, then an operation. After five weeks' treatments I. had an operation for breast amputation by Dr. Blakie. The quick recovery was marvellous owing to the previous build-up. Two days after the operation I was able to sit up for a short time and walk around the room without any feeling of weakness. Two days later I was allowed to leave the hospital. In one week from the operation I was able to walk to Dr Blakie's surgery, have the stitches taken out, then go over to Dr. Davidson's office and continue the injections. I took more injections for three weeks, then returned home. At the present time I am in better health than I have been for years.
I would like to think that something could be done to enlarge the field for this wonderful discovery. As things are now it is very difficult for people out of town to take advantage of the serum treatments. In my case it meant leaving my position and living away from home for weeks when the injections only take a few minutes a day. Then again, unless help is given only a limited amount of serum can be obtained' Having benefited so richly by these treatments myself and talked to many patients who, when hopeless, have been given a new lease on life, I would like to see these treatments within the reach of all who need them.
I sincerely hope that your efforts with the powers that be will be successful.
Yours sincerely,
Miss J. E. Waites.
Winnipeg, Man., February 21, 1914.
Mr. Harry Leader, M.P.,
Dear Sir:
I see by the Free Press that you are endeavouring to -further the research work of Doctor Davidson in his treatment of cancer. And I for ODe do want to add my own personal experience as to what Doctor Davidson has done for me. About two years ago I was very run down in health weighing only 137^ lbs. My normal weight before that was around 15o! in this iun down condition I developed a growth in my breast which caused me very much concern. I went to three or four different doctors in the city and they advised me to have an

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operation and have it analyzed and if necessary have my breast removed. One doctor said I had a definite growth in my breast. Another doctor, one of the best authorities in Winnipeg on this sort of trouble, said there was no doubt it was malignant and strongly urged me to have an operation, which I very nearly did, but I am so thankful to-day that I did not. I was told about Doctor Davidson by a neighbour. I myself laughed at the idea of being treated by a diet. I mentioned this to a couple of the other doctors, giving no names; one said, don't be foolish. The other said, you are just loosing good time. My health being so run down I was really afraid to chance the operation so I thought I would go and see Dr. Davidson anyway and see what he had to offer me. The very first thing he told me was that I was very run down and removing the breast would not cure the trouble. So he made out a complete diet of very nourishing foods, also advised me to take plenty of wheat germ, raw milk, etc., and gave me a prescription of vitamins to take. I began to regain health and strength almost immediately. It took quite a few months for the growth in my breast to disappear, but as I got stronger and my normal health and weight returned, this trouble has entirely disappeared, taking the growth with it. I would be more than willing now to have any doctor examine my breast and I certainly give Dr. Davidson all the credit. He saved me from an operation and most likely death, for I was in such a run down condition; none of the other doctors that had advised me to have an operation ever considered my run down condition. This is one point I especially do credit Dr. Davidson with. Now my general health is fine, I can now do all my own house work and just about back to my normal weight which I never thought I would be. Everyone saw me failing and wondered what was wrong. I only hope that more of the doctors would get next to this sort of treatment *by building up the body to resist growths, which I have proven to be a fact, much superior to the knife.
Yours very sincerely,
Mrs. Ben Hardy,
56 Ruby Street.
I just want to conclude by asking this question: Is the Davidson treatment effective? If it is not, the public is being duped. In either case a thorough investigation should be instituted. All we want is a fair investigation to allay the suspicion which has been aroused in the public mind and to get to the bottom of this thing. I am sure that no one, certainly not myself, and I do not believe Doctor Davidson, would for a moment question a verdict brought in by a competent tribunal. If Doctor Davidson has got something, the world should know it. If he has not, the public should know that at once.
I conclude by saying that now that health is to be considered a provincial matter the federal government should make a grant to the province of Manitoba or to the university of Manitoba in order that this investigation may be made. We want the investigation
to be made at the very earliest opportunity, and we want it to be free and open to both the press and the public.
That, Mr. Speaker, is the substance of my whole remarks, that a proper investigation be made of Doctor Davidson's work; and that can be done only by furnishing the necessary funds from the federal treasury to the province to make the investigation. I thank the house for its courtesy.
Mrs. CORA T. CASSELMAN (Edmonton East): Mr. Speaker, I wish to express my very great pleasure at the setting up of this Department of National Health and Welfare.
Health is under provincial control chiefly, and we already have progressive legislation and effective administration in many of the provinces. But there are many inequalities between province and province, complicated at times by the question of domicile. That is particularly so when the province passes the responsibility on to the municipality. The federal department has given increasing assistance in recent years, especially through its research bureaux and publications and through consultation with provincial administrators. All these contribute to the welfare of the people. But there is a much wider field, that of curative and preventive medicine, which affects the individual more directly. Two provinces have tried to bring in broad health acts, Alberta in 1935 and British Columbia in 1936, but they found too many complications for provincial control alone.
In the parliamentary social security committee, of which I am a member, consideration is being given to a dominion health bill. Study has been given to this matter by men who have wide knowledge concerning the legislation of other countries. It is remarkable that the three countries with the highest standard of living have been slow in producing an over-all health bill-Canada; and Australia is just now considering a further extension of its health measures. Progress in the United States has been slowed down to some extent. This may be owing to the fact that these are federal states and that these other countries, like ourselves, have difficulty in arranging matters which are partly under one jurisdiction and partly under another. I hope that consultation on these matters between the provinces and the dominion will straighten out these matters in order that the new department will have the power to go ahead with the plans placed before it.
I hope that we shall have the health bill before the house during this session and I will reserve any discussion of its terms until that time. If such a measure is adopted it
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will go a long way toward raising the whole standard of living in this country. Sir William Beveridge has stated that one of the two main causes of poverty is illness with its attendant loss of income, and large doctors' and hospital bills. Many a family dates its fall from security to an expensive operation or the long-continued sickness of one of its members. The adoption of health insurance would prevent these heavy expenses from falling all at one time. Year by year payment of premiums will spread the cost of treatment. There will be a spread among those who have different incomes as well as a spread over the years for the individual. Preventive measures will reduce the incidence of disease. Then, too, all income will increase in value. There will be more left as purchasing power for other needs, because medical and hospital charges will be borne by the insurance fund. Old age pensioners will benefit, as will all children under sixteen years of age, and many others whose medical bills will be paid through health insurance. Think of the peace of mind in knowing that there is benefit by health insurance right through all the years of one's life. Through the cooperation of the provinces and the dominion there should be a much healthier population. The national fitness bill which was passed last year is just now coming into operation and will play its part in building up the positive health of the nation.
The second responsibility of this new department of welfare was also allocated to the provinces by the British North America Act. Each has set up its own machinery and most provinces provide for mothers' allowances, widows' and orphans' benefits and workmen's compensation. The federal and provincial authorities share the administration of old age pensions, while unemployment insurance is under the dominion. Canada has recognized already the need, and partly applied the remedy, but it is not broad enough, not deep enough; there are too many gaps and inequalities as between province and province. This dominion department should help to eliminate some of these inequalities.
I am most anxious to see the benefits to. be provided by this social welfare measure set at as high a level as possible. We want to make available a decent standard of living. We want to see that the basic needs of food, housing, clothing, cultural privileges and recreation are provided. This income security should be a stabilizing influence in setting a level below which no one's income may fall. It is recognized in all these studies that there must be measures to ensure full employment. That is

fundamental in providing a satisfactory standard of living in any country. Our aim is full employment of man-power and resources, but there will be emergencies when the individual finds it impossible to provide for himself through his own exertions. Then the state must come to his help.
This question of social welfare was one of the subjects of deliberation at the recent Philadelphia conference of the International Labour Office which I had the privilege of attending. I was assigned to the committee dealing with social insurance and medical care. The Canadian government delegation was in general agreement with practically all the recommendations made in the comprehensive survey. These run to many pages and seek to make continuous a minimum level of income regardless of the interruptions caused by those five great evils which Sir William Beveridge calls want, disease, ignorance, squalor and idleness. I should like to quote from the official bulletin of the International Labour Office. First I quote from paragraph 2 on page 6, which reads:
Income security should be organized as far as possible on the basis of compulsory social insurance, whereby insured persons fulfilling prescribed qualifying conditions are entitled, in consideration of the contributions they have paid to an insurance institution, to benefits payable at rates, and in contingencies, defined by law.
I wanted to read that because of the word "compulsory" which was put in at the suggestion of the workers' delegation. Next I read section 7 on page 7, as follows:
In order that the benefits provided by social insurance may be closely adapted to the variety of needs, the contingencies covered should be classified as follows:
(a)	sickness;
(b)	maternity;
(c)	invalidity;
(d)	old age;
(e)	death of breadwinner;
(f)	unemployment;
(g)	emergency expenses; and
(h)	employment injuries.
Provided that benefits should not be payable at the same time for more than one of the following contingencies: invalidity, old age and unemployment.
I read that to show the broad coverage which was discussed similar to that found in the Marsh and Beveridge reports. The suggestion was made that all these measures could not be put into effect at one time because of lack of trained personnel to carry them out. We will remember that there was some difficulty when we brought in unemployment insurance because of lack of trained
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personnel, a very important item in putting into force any measures such as these. I quote now from paragraph 22 on page 8:
Benefits should replace lost earnings, with due regard to family responsibilities, up to as high a level as is practicable without impairing the will to resume work where resumption is a possibility, and without levying charges on the productive groups so heavy that output and employment are checked.
I read that to show that the International Labour Office and others who have drawn up somewhat similar plans realize that there is a danger that income security may be coupled with indolence, complacency and unpreparedness on the part of the individual. That contingency has been considered and met by the provision that the thrifty and provident may increase their earnings through their own efforts and that those who do so will have a higher income. There is a fear in some quarters that those who show good common sense and prudent management in their economy will have to pay for the shiftless who will not take advantage of their opportunities. Mr. Churchill referred to this in one of his speeches. In order to prevent this, contributions are required from individuals during their earning years.
In New Zealand a registration fee, as well as income tax, is required. I asked Mr. Walter Nash how they collected the registration fee, and he said the applicant had to show his registration card when asking for employment. That would look as though the right to work is conditioned by the payment of the basic fee. You may remember, Mr. Speaker, that I tried to inform the hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Gillis) of that fee on June 2. I should like to quote from an official publication entitled "Social Security, Monetary Benefits and War Pensions in New Zealand", as follows:
For the purpose of providing the necessary finance the act-
That is the social security act of 1938.
-establishes in the public account a separate account, called the social security fund.
Every person of the age of sixteen years and over is required to register under the act and, unless exempt, pay a registration fee, which for youths aged sixteen to twenty years and all females over sixteen years of age is 5s. a year, and for all males over twenty years of age 5s. a quarter.
In addition to the registration fee there is payable into the fund a social security contribution calculated at the rate of Is. in the pound on all salaries, wages, and other income, and any other moneys that may be appropriated by parliament for the purposes of the social security fund, or that may otherwise be lawfully payable into the fund.
It will be noted that the rate is one shilling in the pound for every pound of salary. There is no graduated scale of income tax for this fund in New Zealand. The poor man pays as much proportionately as the rich man. In the case of our income tax a much higher rate is taken from the rich. The chief virtue of New Zealand's measures is, I think, the completeness with which they cover the contingencies that may arise. We admire the manysidedness of the programme in New Zealand and Australia, and in that connection I would read a couple of paragraphs from a speech delivered at an International Labour Office conference by Mr. Barnard, chairman of the Australian parliamentary social security committee; and a member of the house of representatives:	.
In 1943 widows' pensions, invalid pensioners' wives' benefits, old age pensioners' funeral benefits, and a new style of maternity benefits were introduced with the support of the committee. More recently, unemployment and sickness benefits, and pharmaceutical benefits were passed into law. These two pieces of legislation will not begin until the government departments concerned have been staffed to operate. This should involve a delay of only a few months. The Australian government is meeting the cost of providing the people with these services out of the nation's consolidated revenue, and also from a special welfare fund established in 1943. The fund is financed by a graduated tax on all incomes and is collected through ordinary revenue channels. $90,500,000, or 25 per cent of the annual total amount collected in direct taxation each year, is paid into the fund.
I think it is worthy of note also that most of these benefits are at a minimum level in New Zealand and Australia. The New Zealand pound is worth around $3.50 of our money. The old age pension stands at thirty-two shillings a week for an unmarried person, and that works out at $25 a month in our Canadian funds. New Zealand, however, is ahead of us in making more liberal allowances for retention of property and1 other income. Their social security act of 1938 provides for universal superannuation benefits and states definitely that no person may receive these two benefits at the same time. Of course, to qualify for universal superannuation the individual must pay his contributions from time to time to the social security fund. The Australian benefits are not high either. Children's allowances begin with the second child, and are five shillings a week.
One more sentence from Mr. Barnard's address:
While these are not regarded as being by any means a high standard of subsistence, they form a basis upon which our social legislation can be built in future years.
I simply want to give these facts to the house, because I believe that a knowledge of
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the underlying principles which have guided our sister dominions along this line should enable us to create a stronger department and to pass better measures for the department to administer.
There is much that I should like to say on this topic, but I will refrain from saying anything more at the moment. As we move forward along these lines we are inspired by the high ideal of bringing the ordinary comforts to all our people. Of course, that in itself will not bring them happiness, because I believe that your chief happiness consists in what you are and not in what you possess. It consists in being and not in having. And yet, as we enter this new age, which I firmly hope will be one of greater prosperity for everyone, and which will lessen man's inhumanity to man, participation in organizations such as the International Labour Office and other conferences in which Canada is represented can be of great help to us in instituting these services and in coordinating all our efforts in this direction. To gain and enlarge freedom from fear and from want is our objective.


Mr. T. L. CHURCH (Broadview):: I wish to say a few words in regard to this particular bill. It was unfortunate that at confederation education and public health were not made subjects of concurrent jurisdiction as between the federal government and the provincial authority. That is one of the greatest mistakes ever made at that time. Herp you have the federal authority and two other authorities, the provincial and the municipal. The fathers of confederation, in my opinion, made a mistake in creating the provinces at all; they were created for political and not for economic purposes.
As regards this particular bill, in the first place it has been unfortunate that the federal authority has not seen fit in many years past, between the two wars, to come to the aid of the provinces and the municipalities in regard to hospitals, public health and security and welfare, science, preventive medicine, surgery and so on. The federal department of public health from time immemorial, judging from what I have seen of it-and I have had a great deal to do with these problems-has been merely a skeleton department. It has done magnificent work in the last few years. Especially has it cooperated in public health matters and in science as well. It is regrettable, however, that something was not done long ago in this connection. The work of public health and hospitals has been largely left to the municipalities and private initiative by the provinces. Under our constitution, for the

past thirty or forty years there has been a local board of health with jurisdiction over the municipalities. There is a provincial board of health and these provincial boards have been to a large extent simply regulatory bodies. They spend very little money and as far as one can see they confine their activities to regulation. The larger municipalities have had to bear practically the whole burden. Large municipalities like Montreal, Toronto and many other Canadian cities have had to give many of these services in connection with public health and hospitals and have also supplied water, sewers, transportation, and have provided good roads and assisted in housing and in the distribution of cheap light and power. All these matters affect public health to a preeminent degree.
Then there is the question of housing. Every health officer has declared, and it is indeed a well-known fact, that the public health has been suffering these many years by reason of the fact that we have never had a national housing policy. I will go farther and say that diseases of many types could have been prevented, and slums removed, especially in the larger cities, if a national housing scheme had been adopted years ago.
There should be a national system in connection with hospitals, because the first duty of a government is to look after the health, peace, happiness and prosperity of its citizens. That is the function of the state and always has been. Owing to our complicated constitution, however, we have been handicapped in our efforts to attain anything like that end.
Another important matter is the fuel supply. That has a direct bearing on health, because in this country very often it is necessary to have a fire nine months in the year. That has to do with public health and has its bearing on certain diseases from which our people suffer during the winter and spring months. I was chairman of a local board of health, also of the city hospital commission, and I was at other times a member of that body for a great number of years and I can speak with some experience. We came here frequently and asked different governments for help, but we got none at all. The result is that the municipality and the local board of health must safeguard the local water supply. I may say in passing that the grandfather of the present Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) was our first mayor of Toronto. The present Prime Minister was educated in Toronto. He is one of the most distinguished graduates of the university of Toronto. He is conversant with all the work of the local board of health in that city.
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We have safeguarded the water, milk and food supply. There has been supervision of environmental sanitation, active control of communicable diseases, home visiting and the conduct of health clinics, vaccination against smallpox and immunization against diphtheria and whooping cough. All these and many other services have resulted in better health for our large city, and the whole surrounding area of North York. The general death rate now stands at 12-4 per 1,000 population. I shall only read one or two pages of the summary of the department of public health of Toronto to show what can be done by a municipality alone without any provincial or federal help. This is what the municipal handbook, compiled by Mr. J. W. Somers, O.B.E., city clerk, says:
The general death rate now stands at 12-4 per 1,000 population. It is worthy of note that the prevailing average age at death is sixty-years, representing an increase of longevity of approximately twenty years over the past quarter of a century, and that only twenty-five per cent of all mortality now occurs in persons under fifty years of age, whereas the proportion in 1910 was sixty-five per cent. Cardio-vascular-renal conditions, together w-ith cancer and diabetes, all afflictions more commonly found associated with later adult life and difficult of control by public health measures, were responsible for over two-thirds of the recorded mortality for the year.
One of the highlights to be recorded is the appreciable decrease in maternal mortality. The present rate of 2-2 per 1,000 living births is the lowest in thirty-five years, and when taken into consideration with the increased number of births, the decline is even more significant.
Toronto's present birth rate is 22-5 per 1,000 population and represents an increase of 46 per cent over the 1937 rate. Non-resident mothers, taking advantage of Toronto's excellent hospital facilities, were responsible for 30 per cent of all births occurring in the city.
Deaths of infants under one year of age numbered 566 or a rate of 37-2 per 1,000 live births. The value of intensive health measures in infant care is thus easily recognized when we realize that the rate existent just seven years ago was 56 per 1,000 live births.
Notwithstanding the additional hazards of war-time conditions, Toronto has achieved an enviable record of mortality from tuberculosis. The current rate per 100,000 population is 31-6, including deaths of residents occurring in sanatoria located outside the city limits. Physical examinations in large industrial plants accounted for 18 per cent of all cases reported last year, and is indicative of the value of well-planned health supervision.
In reviewing the total incidence of communicable diseases during 1943 it is to be noted that while the total of such cases reported during the year was in excess of that for 1943, there were nevertheless certain favourable features to be recorded. Scarlet fever, for instance, to the number of 1,501 eases, showed a substantial decrease from the 2,101 cases reported in 1942. Only eleven cases of typhoid fever, with one fatality, were reported during the year, the
source of infection in all instances being definitely established as outside the city. Meningococcic meningitis registered a decrease over 1942 from sixty-seven to fifty-three cases. Unfortunately, thirteen of the cases occurring in the current year terminated fatally as compared with but six fatalities in 1942.
For the fourth time in ten years Toronto has witnessed a year without a single fatality from diphtheria, and only sixteen cases were reported among residents of the city. The effectiveness of the diphtheria immunization programme can be appreciated when the current figures are compared with the 1929 records of 1,022 cases and sixty-four deaths.
This brief resume of the various indices of public health will serve to demonstrate that the city's endeavours to improve the health of its inhabitants have met w-ith a reasonable measure of success.
In the attainment of all these worth-while results credit should be given to all those public-spirited individuals and fine citizens who spent a large sum of money on preventive medicine in the large hospitals and university. Appreciation should be given to the physicians and hospitals, the health and welfare organizations of the city, the women and the citizens who have worked toward this end. My argument is that the federal power could, under peace, order and good government, make some of those grants with or without the consent of the provinces, because they would be glad to receive that recognition which they should have had long ago.
Under this new bill I hope that some money will be spent, I trust that this new bill will not ,be just a skeleton department, a department all dressed up with no place to go. I should like to see a national policy on hospitalization and housing and a national policy with regard lo medicine in the universities so that the great scientists in medicine w-ould be recognized. Cancer and many other problems are now being studied by great research work in the universities by men specializing in these matters. On the question of scientists I wish to refer to what has been said by a very able man, McNeill Dixon, in his Gifford lectures at the university of Glasgow. He referred to what has been done by science in recent years in the world of medicine, and this is what he said:
Take modern medicine alone, the child of science, the most promising and brightest-eyed of her family-. If it has not mastered, it has so diminished as to rob bodily pain of its terrors. Plagues and pestilences have been stayed, a multitude of diseases-diphtheria, rabies, smallpox, typhus, yellow fever, Maltese fever-to name only a few-almost exterminated. Great scourge-ridden tracts of the earth's surface rendered habitable, food values understood, vaccines and anti-toxins discovered, antiseptic surgery so established as to open up new fields of remedial agency, ailments of the mind as well as of the body controlled and
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relieved. This is a record, indeed, to which no previous age in history can produce a parallel. Within a century the expectation of iife in all civilized countries has amazingly increased-in our own by sixteen years, in Denmark by seventeen, in parts of America by fifteen.
That just shows, Mr. Speaker, what can be done by science.
Section 5 of the 'bill deals with the duties, powers and functions of the minister. The administration of the measure comes under him. No definition of social security was given. No definition of social welfare was given. Paragraph (b) of section 5 reads:
Investigation and research into public health and welfare.
That would refer to cancer and many other diseases and the work of the national research council on cancer and all that sort of thing. Dear knows there is a lot of remedial work to be done yet, although great progress has been made. It is only in its infancy as yet and needs a lot more of federal aid to hospitals and universities.
Paragraph (c) reads:
The inspection of medical care of immigrants and seamen . . .
And so on. At this point I should like to call the attention of the house to what has been done by Australia. Sixteen thousand of our Canadian young men in the navy, army and air force overseas have married British girls in the old country. Australia is doing something in that connection on 'immigration. I suggest that under paragraph (c) something might be done by Canada. Seven hundred wives of Australian servicemen who married in Britain will in future have full ocean passage paid for them to Australia. The union of wives and husbands who have already returned to Australia will be speeded up. I have noticed a large number of soldiers who are returning to our city have difficulties in that connection. I do hope that under paragraph (c) we shall adopt the commendable programme of Australia.
Paragraph (d) deals with the supervision of public health on railways, boats, ships and all other methods of transportation. There is great room, for improvement in that connection. I will agree that even if the bill does nothing more, in paragraphs (b), (c), (d) and (e) it will be of great use. The other day we had a disaster at Port Stanley, in which sixteen lives *were lost when an unseaworthy boat capsized. In my opinion the criminal code should be amended as to criminal negligence to provide that anyone who takes people out in boats which have not been inspected from a public health or a navigation point of view

may be prosecuted for criminal negligence. There was also considerable loss of life in a dance hall fire in Hamilton, where the people had no chance to escape. That would come under the inspection of public buildings, I should imagine, and the negligence clauses of the criminal code should be amended to cover buildings of that kind as well. The supervision of federal buildings and offices will be under this bill with a view to conserving and promoting the health of civil servants and other government employees; this opens a great field of usefulness, and I think a good deal could be done also in connection with public health in our penal institutions, some of which were built before confederation, and many provincial and municipal ones have been condemned by public health officers as unfit for human habitation. The government should give the lead in an educational campaign along that line by aiding the provinces and municipalities.
Paragraph (f) deals with the enforcement of rules and regulations made by the international joint commission, presumably in regard to the pollution of streams. I believe this has constituted a serious menace across Canada to public health for many years, but very little has been done.
It would appear that not until comparatively modern times has the federal government taken any steps to prevent outbreaks of disease. In 1929 the administration, of the Food and Drugs Act was improved, and in later years we have dealt with opium and narcotic drugs, the Quarantine Act, the Public Works Health Act, the Leprosy Act, the Patent Medicines Act, and more recently the Physical Fitness Act. That is surely a provincial matter, and little or nothing 'has been done under it. The positions to be filled under that measure should be given to returned men. The other day I noticed a statement by the director of recreation in Vancouver that the secondary schools of the country do not have time for sports. If he would visit the Brampton high school, or the high schools and collegiate institutes in the constituencies of the hon. members for Davenport and St. Paul's, I am afraid he would find that at times sports take a prominent place in education, and rightly so. So that I think some of these people do not know what is going on.
Under another section of this bill the governor in council may establish such boards or committees as may be necessary to assist and advise the minister, and there is to be a dominion council of health consisting of the chairman, who will be the deputy minister, the chief executive officers of the provincial departments of health and such other persons, not to exceed
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five in number, as may be appointed. Section 8 provides that provincial or municipal boards of health are not affected by this legislation. Of course their jurisdiction arises under section 92 of the British North America Act, and could not be interfered with by this legislation in any event.
In conclusion I should like to say that within the last two years a great British educationist said that we in the British empire should be careful about making national decisions during the war, because such decisions might be ill-judged since in a time like this no one is perfectly normal. I think this is good advice. People are beginning tt>
wonder what has become of the war, because for the last few days it seems to have been forgotten in this chamber. The conduct of the war is primary ; all these other matters are secondary. For years I have supported progressive measures in connection with public health and social affairs; in regard to pensions and hospitals, old age pensions, health insurance and many other matters. I can tell you, though, as President Roosevelt has said, that neither victory nor any kind of planning will bring about the mil-lenium. I believe the time has come when we should relax the controls which have been adopted by Canada perhaps more than any other country in the world. We have had the regimentation of labour, controls over men, women and children under which people have been sent to gaol for offences which in days of peace would not have been regarded as offences. We have set up a great bureaucratic system, but when the war is over I hope these controls will be removed and we shall have no more of this regimentation, for in my opinion you cannot create a limited utopia in the way that has been suggested in this house during the last few days.
While I am in favour of adopting all up-to-date social measures which are adapted to our situation and circumstances, in view of the budget which was presented last night I must ask, whose taxes are to be increased? The state has no money of its own for all these utopian plans, dreams and castles in the air which are supposed to bring about a new heaven and a new earth, except that which is provided by the taxpayers. There is no use in merely shadow-boxing on these matters and setting out window-dressing and passing mere statutes and no way to carry it out, and forgetting all about the war. The Prime Minister of Great Britain gave us a *warning when he spoke in the British House of Commons on March 21, 1943. He said that we must beware of trying to build a society in which nobody counts for anything except the politician or the official,
a society where enterprise gains no reward and thrift no privileges. While I wish to support anything that is practical in the way of social changes

and dear knows we need something new for the working classes of this country

I believe some of these proposals are not practical and cannot be carried out.
I should hope that something could be done in connection with housing and fuel, because I believe those are the greatest practical health problems that we have to face. With regard to state medicine, I am in doubt as yet. Ever since the period between the two wars I have supported such measures as health and sickness insurance.
I should like to quote from the Daily Mail of Friday, May 12, 1944, in which it is stated that the leaders of the medical profession, including Lord Dawson of Pen, the king's physician, condemned the government's health plan on nine major points, which were as follows:
1.	Doctors, as members of an expert profession, should not be subjected to non-expert direction by civil servants.
2.	They object to the profession being controlled by the treasury or by the treasury outlook.
3.	They oppose the "civil direction" in peace time; they do not want a doctor to be told by a civil servant where to practise.
4.	The white paper calls for "a high degree of certification." This, they say, might well mean that a doctor, convinced that a patient needed a week off from work, would not dare to give a certificate because he might be questioned by a government inspector.
5.	The government plan, in practice, wmuld destroy the doctor's professional freedom and the doctor-patient relationship.
6.	They oppose any attempt to introduce insidiously, by means -of health centres, the idea of a state salaried service, because it would substitute for the present loyalty to patients a loyalty to the state.
7.	The "health areas" into which the country is to be divided are too small and will multiply, instead of reducing, the "departmental mind.""
8.	Health centres should be built up slowly and be the fruit of accrued experience, and not limited, as proposed, to surgery.
9.	The white paper makes no provision -for training in, or practice of preventive medicine.
I have quoted from the Daily Mail of Friday, May 12, where Lord Dawson of Penn, the king's physician, presented his memorandum to the council of the British Medical association, condemning the government's health-fo-r-all plan, on nine major points.
I saw a letter from one of the leading surgeons of Johns Hopkins university, namely the brilliant Doctor Thomas Cullen, who graduated from the university of Toronto and was born in that -city. He pointed out that the suggested measure would not be in the
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interests of the medical profession or the practice of surgery, or in the interests of the advances made by that great university in years past.
I do not rise for the purpose of preventing the passage of the Prime Minister's bill. On the contrary I commend it, so far as it goes. I believe that if money is well spent liberally there may be some good effect in the country. I have noticed that in the past thirty years health departments in municipalities have dealt with these problems. I believe that if we can get agreement with the provinces whereby the jurisdiction might be made concurrent, hundreds of millions of dollars might be spent federally in the five years following the war. That money could be spent on national housing, national hospitalization, and a national scheme in connection with science, [DOT]and particularly that branch of science in medicine about which I have been speaking. And I would draw particular attention to the rapid strides made by medicine, as indicated by McNeil Dixon.


Mr. F. W. GERSHAW (Medicine Hat):: Mr. Speaker, in making a few remarks in connection with the setting up of the Department of National Health and Welfare I wish to say, first of all, that my observation and experience is that the medical doctors of this country are only too anxious to grasp any new treatment that can be discovered. They would welcome with open arms any treatment which even in a small way would lessen the ravages of cancer. They have grasped the liver treatment for anaemia, the insulin treatment for diabetes, the sulpha drugs for numerous infections, and penicillin, where applicable. All they want is an assurance from some research body with respect to the safety of action in connection with new methods of treatment. These things can be obtained, and these problems can be worked out only in a national research body.
After the evidence given to-day by the hon. member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Leader), I believe that various research bodies should again be approached, and that some real interest should be taken in probing this matter to its depths. Other cancer cures have been probed, and we have always hoped that one would be found which would really help to destroy this great scourge.
During the lifetime of this parliament and the term of office of this government, many important social security measures have been taken. We have a long list of labour legislation placed on the statute books. We have pensions, bonuses and grants. We have The Unemployment Insurance Act. We have health insurance, and we know of the efforts
(Mr. Church.]
made by the nutritional council to make generally known the advantages of proper diet, proper foods, and the preparation of foods. The provinces have mothers' allowances and workmen's compensation acts. Now we are to have family allowances, which will be a great blessing to many people.
There is one problem, however, which has not yet been touched, and I refer to help for those who are disabled. If a man is disabled while working under a compensation act, he can get some means of living. But if he is not under a compensation act, and suffers some injury or is sick, he may find himself in a very bad situation. None of the new measures seems to give any relief in that respect.
I wish to emphasize one feature in connection with social security which has not yet been stressed, namely, that in my opinion individuals and nations will have to return to the observance of the cardinal virtues. Those virtues were called cardinal because the whole structure of our economic system hinges upon them. I believe that there will never be contentment until those virtues are restored to their old-time position.
One of the first speeches I heard in the Bouse of Commons was during the hectic session of 1926. I can still remember the late Mr. Forke saying in effect that a man who has not contentment in his breast may be great, or rich, or wise, but never can be blessed.
We are at present engaged in a colossal conflict of arms, when war has upset the whole progress of the world and plunged it into misery and bloodshed. Why? I would say that this has happened because one nation turned its back upon those cardinal virtues. Hitler substituted the swastika for the cross and "Mein Kampf" for the Bible, disregarded the lessons of history and failed to recognize enduring truths. He even boasted that he would tear up Christianity, root, stem and branch. Instead of teaching his people humility, he taught them that they were a superior people. Instead of observing the second commandment he inflicted punishment and cruelty upon the German people and upon others, which nothing can ever excuse.
I bring up these points because I believe that a condition of affairs spoken of in the Psalms has arisen, where it is said that the dark places of the earth are full of the habitations of cruelty. We must approach the problems of social security in the light of knowledge gained in the past, and the experience of these tragic years.
At six o'clock the house took recess.
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After Recess
The house resumed at eight o'clock.


Mr. A. M. NICHOLSON (Mackenzie):: Mr. Speaker, when the hon. member for Edmonton East (Mrs. Casselman) was speaking before six o'clock she mentioned that she would defer some remarks until the bill respecting health insurance was before the house. She appeared to me to be unduly optimistic, if that bill is to come before the house this session I fear that we shall be here until Christmas.
The Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King), in speaking this afternoon, indicated that this bill would provide a sort of clearing-house which would coordinate the health services in the different provinces of the dominion. That is not good enough at this stage. The people of this country expect and deserve that legislation be placed on the statute books by this parliament to remove the inequalities in the medical services in different parts of Canada, so that the health of t'he Canadian people may receive the attention which it deserves. If the British North America Act does not place responsibility for the health of the people on the right branch of government, the conference which is to be held between the provinces and the dominion has been too long delayed. Too often the excuse has been given when, important legislation has been proposed that this is not a matter in which the federal government can act. In turn, the provincial governments say that they have not the jurisdiction or the funds, and the municipalities are unable to find the resources to introduce the changes desired. When war breaks out it is in the interests of us all that we should have a maximum number of able-bodied men and women to give their services in defence of our institutions. Then it is important that our young people should have their defects of vision corrected, their teeth put in good shape, that they be free from tuberculosis, that they be able to stand up to the rigours of modern warfare. If it is important in time of war, it is equally important in time of peace to be concerned about the health of our people and to see that sufficient hospitals and nurses and doctors and dentists are available to give the very best services in different parts of the country.
While some hon. members who have spoken this afternoon appear to be satisfied with the progress we have made in Canada, members of this group are far from being satisfied. Here again Canada lags. I have before me "A Distinguished Report on a Proposed Reorganization. of Medical Practice in Great Britain." This group of younger doctors are not only concerned about having medicines and hospitals but with some of the wider medical problems. They speak of two groups of problems connected with but not strictly a part of medical planning. First, they say that medical organization is largely determined by the social pattern of the society in which it exists. The second group of problems, they point out, which are connected with but not strictly a part of medical planning are those of environmental planning for health and happiness. They go on to point out that the people of Great Britain can have as high a standard of medical hospitals as they want to. In connection with their studies they give some attention to the control of industry, rationing, price fixing, nutritious food, adequate supplies of heat, light, potable water, sewage disposal arrangements, and fresh air. They say:
Since it has been discovered that finance, as such, is no longer a limiting factor in national endeavour, it will only be offered as an excuse for not taking action by the ignorant, the prejudiced, or the wicked.
There is no need for a return to pre-war poverty, slumps or unemployment, if we are prepared to impose certain disciplines on ourselves. By continuing to sacrifice some freedoms, which we have willingly sacrificed in war, we can gain greater freedoms than we possessed before.
They go on to point out:
A planned health service is an A1 priority. The best that the medical and allied professions can provide must be available for everybody. Provided this does not encroach on other A1 priorities we need not count the cost. Since the productive wealth of Britain has never been greater, we can plan if not prodigally at least boldly.
They mention the importance of eliminating poverty, caused by the unemployment of the chief wage-earner or his sickness; sickness benefits, provision for old age and many other important proposals.
In the United States a survey has been made, and I have here an interesting report in News of Toronto, in its issue of March 18, 1944, regarding some of the discoveries that have been made in the United States, among which are:
More than 40 per cent of the counties in the United States contained no registered general hospital to serve their total of 17.000,000 people in 1938.	'
Nearly a quarter of a million women had nomedical aid in childbirth.
In eighty-four cities, 28 per cent of children had neither physician nor hospital care in illnesses which disabled them for a week or more One-third of the 35,000,000 children under fifteen years old in the United States were in families unable to afford medical care.
Two-thirds of the United States rural areas were without child health centres or clinics.
More than a billion days were lost from work each year by 70,000,000 sick persons.
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They go on to say:
Poor people . . . get sick more easily and -oftener than well-to-do people. Because they are poor, they cannot afford to buy adequate medical care. And if they live in a poor county -there is not enough tax money available with which to buy medical care for them. Hence they tend to get sicker and consequently poorer. "The mote poor individuals in the county, the poorer the county. In the end, there are so many sick people wrho cannot afford a doctor that the doctors begin to complain about the [DOT]competition of the free clinic-if any or even to move away. Whereupon more people get sicker and poorer, poorer and sicker. . . .
A similar record could be written about [DOT]conditions in Canada. The legislation which is now before this house is not going to provide a single hospital; it is not going to make possible the spending of even ten thousand [DOT]dollars to carry out the research work advocated this afternoon by the hon. member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Leader). I thought, after hearing him on two occasions, and considering the very small amount of money which would be required to consider carefully all the claims made by the hon. member on behalf of Doctor Davidson, that this government would have little justification for not making the necessary appropriation under the War Measures Act to conduct the investigation. The amount required would be veiy small. I understand that the Minister of Pensions and National Health (Mr. Mackenzie) indicated that the Department of Justice had indicated that such an appropriation would be irregular.
Apparently the government is following the same sort of policy followed in connection with old age pensions. It is not introducing a programme with a view to giving Canada the best possible medical services at the earliest possible date; the policy seems to "be to do as little as possible. When one *considers representations which have been made by organizations like the federation of agriculture and the Canadian Congress of Labour it would seem that these lay organizations are more progressive and have a clearer grasp of the problem. The federation of agriculture in a brief presented a year ago [DOT]stated:
The large majority of the people are unable to pay for adequate medical care with its rapidly increasing scope and costs; while at the same time, those who give the services are not receiving a just remuneration. This state of affairs is having a serious effect on the welfare of our dominion.
And further now:
Health is a national problem which is becoming more and more evident under the stress of war conditions. The responsibility of the

federal government in calling on man and woman power from all classes entails federal responsible for the people's health. . . .
A national health plan would encourage a strong national sentiment. Confederation was intended to foster a national economy. There is now urgent need to revive this interest.
The Canadian Congress of Labour presented one of the most critical analyses of the proposals which had been submitted by the government. They took strong exception to the proposed plan of financing the scheme and they point out:
The congress believes that the only equitable method of financing health insurance or health services is by taxation based on ability to pay. The whole cost should be met out of the proceeds of steeply graduated income and inheritance taxes levied by the dominion. Any other system is bound to :be unfair as between different classes of contributors, and bound also to penalize the poorer provinces and delay their adoption of this scheme.
In justifying his proposals, the Minister of Pensions and National Health (Mr. Mackenzie) said:
It has been suggested that a completely free or non-contributory system should be adopted, but it is considered that such a system encourages the pauper mentality and may create a delusion that the public purse is bottomless thereby encouraging extravagance and maladministration. It is more consistent with the dignity and independence of man that he should purchase the necessities of life with his own money. Under a contributory system of health insurance, benefit becomes a right and not a charity. Moreover, the beneficiaries who are contributors feel a sense of responsibility in regard to the cost of services and administrative procedures.
I wonder if there is anyone who would suggest that the soldier, sailor or airman should pay for the medical and dental services he receives? Is there any suggestion that they are paupers when they accept medical and hospital services provided for them? Is there any question about the type of service given? Recently I visited the R.C.A.F. station at Dafoe, Saskatchewan, and while there the air ambulance came in from Winnipeg to take back an airman who was in a serious condition. He was to be taken some four hundred miles. There was no question about costs; it was considered to be in the public interest that that airman should have the best attention which could be provided and that care was available in Winnipeg. While they had an excellent hospital with a competent staff, as well as X-rays and the latest facilities, at Dafoe, better facilities were available in Winnipeg. That man was transported in a few hours to Winnipeg to receive that attention.
I think the argument advanced by the Canadian Congress of Labour that the funds
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necessary to give the people of this country the best medical and hospital care possible should be secured from taxation is one that cannot be dismissed lightly. In their brief they deal with the inadequacies of the proposals and state that they make no provision for cash benefits to maintain minimum income during interruption of earning power on account of illness. It is very important that when the breadwinner goes to a hospital his family should not be compelled to go into debt. They also point out
The draft ibill makes no provision for the extra medical, dental and nursing personnel who are even now urgently necessary, and who will he not less but more necessary under a health insurance scheme. The American committee on the cost of medical care considered that there should be one doctor in every seven hundred of the population and one dentist to every thousand.
We have never been able to reach that goal in Canada. The medical procurement and assignment board report that in Canada we have one doctor for every twelve hundred of the population. In Saskatchewan there is only one doctor for every 2,078. As I mentioned before, in my riding there is only one doctor for about every 5,700 people. I think in this enlightened day we should provide for our civilian population at least as good medical care as we do for the criminals in our penitentiaries. If my people were located in one of the penitentiaries they would receive much better medical and dental care. For example, I find that in Kingston penitentiary they have a part-time doctor who is paid on the basis of S3 per year per convict, and the dentist is paid on a similar basis. I found one day that in addition to the dentist at Kingston there were two convict dental assistants. They were dressed in white uniforms and were doing the type of work normally done by a qualified dentist located in a small town or village. I do not think it would be too much to hope that the non-convict in Canada should have as good hospital, medical and dental care as his fellow citizen behind the stone walls of a penitentiary.
According to the brief presented by the Canadian Congress of Labour we are short of nurses in the country. Again Saskatchewan has the worst record. The average for all Canada is 2-06 nurses per thousand of population, with Saskatchewan having only 1-23. The congress of labour complains about the proposed cost of medical services. I would not complain about this cost if the federal department were planning on collecting and spending all the money. As we listened last night to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Usley) we were reminded of how easy it is to get, not millions but billions in time of war.
If we want to spend the amount suggested by the advisory committee, there would not be much cause for criticism if it were all collected by means of federal taxation, but we find that a large percentage is to be charged against the people in the communities who will be required to pay on a per capita basis. The proposed amount for medical services of $9.50 per person works out in a rather surprising manner for a rural municipality such as Kelvington.
The doctor there is providing very satisfactory services for $5,000 per year, but this proposal would give him $23,325. He tells me that if he were collecting on a fee for service basis he would earn a little more than that in the average year, but he does not expect that the farmers in that community, who are having to sell their produce at fairly low prices, will be able to pay him an annual return of $25,000 for his services. He is making a real sacrifice by working in that northern community. He is doing surgery which compares very well with what is being done in our large cities and I think he could earn several times as much as he is now getting. He is doing an important public job. It would be difficult to convince the people of that particular municipality that they should be taxed to pay for medical services to the extent of $23,325 a year when it is assumed that we have sufficient doctors in Canada.
The Canadian congress brief emphasized the importance of having additional medical schools so that we shall have sufficient doctors available to care for our peace-time needs. Even with the accelerated policy of training students, we cannot hope to train enough in the colleges that are available to provide a standard such as the Americans suggest, namely, one doctor for 750 people. They emphasize the need of new mental hospitals, hospitals for the care of communicable diseases and for senile patients, many outpost hospitals, industrial health service, et cetera.
A valuable contribution to the subject of health has been made by the state hospital and medical league of Saskatchewan. Most members of the organization are laymen, but those who have read "Medical Quest" by E. R. Powell, the secretary, a copy of which has been sent to every member of parliament, will appreciate the constructive suggestions that are made by this organization. Every member will be well repaid for a careful reading of it. I would mention particularly their reference to the health of animals as a part of a national health programme. So far, the importance of the health of animals has been overlooked by the administration and we find ourselves talking about health insurance programmes with
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no provision having been made for the training and paying of veterinary doctors to look after the inspection of cows for tuberculosis or for Bangs disease, or for the inspection of meat in the rural areas. We do have on federal pay a number of graduates from veterinary colleges, but they are paid such scandalously low wages that there is no incentive to encourage young men from the high schools to go to a veterinary college. If a young graduate from a veterinary college wants to set up in private practice his only hope is to go to Montreal, Winnipeg or Vancouver and open a pet hospital. Is it not a serious reflection on our civilization when we train young men to look after canaries, kittens and pups and leave large sections of Canada in such a condition that it is impossible to have cows tested for tuberculosis? We see children admitted to sanatoria because it has been their misfortune to drink milk from tuberculosis infected cows. The federal government says that this is a matter for the provincial government and the provincial government says in turn that, while the health of animals is in their jurisdiction, they have not the resources to train or to pay graduates in veterinary science to go and supervise properly the health of animals and test cows for tuberculosis.
This brief points out there are a number of diseases such as swine erysipelas and Bangs disease, found among animals and easily communicated to human beings. It also points out that there are large areas throughout Canada where veterinary medicine is a forgotten science. Since the horse and buggy are disappearing it se,ems to be assumed that we no longer require anyone to go through veterinary college to inspect meat or to test animals for contagious diseases. I submit that the contribution made to this important subject by the federation of agriculture, by the Canadian Congress of Labour and the state hospital and medical league in Canada should be carefully considered by the government and by members of this house.
Of course we are supporting the legislation. We are glad to have something rather than nothing, but we hope that the federal government will give much more courageous leadership in bringing this important question of health before the different provincial governments and will refrain from passing the buck to the provinces or municipalities. Through the kindness of the Minister of Pensions and National Health I sat in at a conference when ministers and deputy ministers of public health from various provinces were here. It was evident from the discussions that all the provinces are most anxious to cooperate with the federal government as soon as possible;
TMr. Nicholson.]
but most of the provinces are in this position, that many of their sources of revenue have been taken over by the federal government and they cannot see their way clear to launch the type of programme which is necessary at this stage of our history. Unless the federal government gives leadership and an assurance to the provinces that ample funds will be available, we shall find ourselves, when the war is over, with the men and women in the armed services coming back to civilian life with a poorly planned programme ahead and with very poor medical, hospital and dental services available for them.


Mr. J. J. McCANN (Renfrew South):: I wish to make a very few brief observations with reference to this bill which has to do with the setting up of a department, to be called the Department of National Health and Welfare, for the purpose of looking after the health, social security and welfare of the people of the country. I am glad that the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) in introducing the bill has seen fit to retain in it the name "national health." It was at first proposed that it should be a department of social welfare. The term "national health," to the medical fraternity at least, means a great deal, because a fight was waged in this country, starting back in 1919, brought about by conditions which obtained more particularly after the last war with reference to venereal disease, to set up a department of national health. Many countries throughout the world have departments of national health. There is one in Great Britain, one in Australia and one in New Zealand. There is a department having to do with national health in the United States and in almost every democratic country in the world there is a department of national health and in some a department of national health and security. So that it is with some satisfaction that we see that the name has been retained and that the principle which has been fought for by the medical profession throughout Canada has been vindicated.
I am not sure that this department is going to be all that we would desire. I am very sorry that it appears to be what will be the remnants of the present Department of Pensions and National Health when the matter of veterans' affairs is taken away and put into a department entirely its own. Under the bill which was put through lately, the Department of Veterans' Affairs will have to do entirely with the treatment of returned men. I submit that, in these times particularly, when we have a shortage of hospital accommodation and of personnel, both of trained medical help and of nursing services, it would be much better if all the medical services which come
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under the jurisdiction of the medical department were put into one department. What is the condition at the present time? Under the Department of Veterans' Affairs the treatment of returned men will be taken care of. Under the Indian affairs branch, for the treatment of those people who are wards of this country and with whom we have both contractual and moral obligations to look after their education and health, we have a separate division in the Department of Mines and Resources which has to do with the treatment of 125,000 Indians in Canada.
There is delegated to this department which will be set up the supervision and treatment of those who will be in the marine hospitals. Therefore you have three separate divisions of medical treatment under three different departments. From the point of view of economy and efficiency, having regard to the reduced number of medical men who are practising to-day, it would be much better if all the medical services came under one department. According to the statement of the Prime Minister old age pensions, pensions for the blind, physical fitness and family allowances will be transferred to this department. I submit that they should come under the Department of Pensions because they are exactly what they say they are, pensions for the old people, pensions for the blind and famibr allowances, which is to be a type of pension. If the department were called the Department of Pensions and looked after pensions which go to veterans, pensions which go to the blind, pensions which go to the old people and family allowances, which are a type of pension to people having big families, then you would have concentrated in one department and under one administrative unit all those particular branches that have to do with the administration of pensions. However, we cannot obtain all these things in a day. But in view of the fact that because of a comprehensive study and review of the situation with reference to medical treatment there has been recommended by the assignment and procurement board an amalgamation of the medical services of the three branches of the armed forces, I am hopeful that some day it will come about that all the medical services with which the federal department has anything to do will be concentrated in one particular department.
This new branch of the service under a minister who will look after the health, social security and welfare of the people of Canada, has a splendid opportunity to do an extensvie piece of work if it fulfils the objective which is set for it. The health of the people of Canada should be of primary importance
because, after all, it is people who count in this world, not material things. The federal government has not given the health of the people that consideration which is their due and to which they have been entitled throughout the years. I was glad to hear the Prime Minister say to-day that more attention will be given to the health of the people of Canada and that it was a matter of some concern to the government.
If we look at the record we find that the Department of Agriculture has spent many times more money on the health of animals, under the health of animals branch, than has been spent by this government on the health of the people. That is because due importance has not been given to the value of people as an asset to the country. Much work has been done, and there has been some measure of cooperation between the national health department and the provincial departments of health, but there has not been throughout the years that spirit of cooperation between the provincial departments of health and the federal department of health that there should have been. I place no blame for that upon the minister because his function has been one of administration, but I have repeatedly heard it said by men high up in the health departments of the different provinces that they did not often get that degree of cooperation or coordination of effort in health matters which they might reasonably expect between their various departments and the national department at Ottawa. I hope that that will be changed, because, after all, these problems are not provincial problems; they are not federal problems; they are a common problem; they are the problem of all the governments in this country whether they be municipal, provincial or federal And the problems which confront the people can be solved only by the closest type of coordination and cooperation.
I do not think that throughout the years any science has made greater advances than has the science of medicine. The expectancy of life of the people has been materially increased within the last twenty or thirty years. The matter of prevention has played a very important and prominent part and has given splendid results. The greatest difficulty has been the inability of people to take advantage of the services which could be theirs if they were in an economic position to take advantage of them. The one great step which is being made to bring that about is the aiming at social security for our people and the adopting of the proposed health insurance in which we Should have the full cooperation of federal and provincial governments if
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we hope to obtain that objective. As I said a moment ago, a great deal had been accomplished through the adoption of preventive measures by organized departments of health. These people, aided by physicians, nurses and dentists and the work of voluntary health agencies, have made many important contributions. For instance, we have a reduction in the death rate of tuberculosis in one province alone to one-fifth of what it was in 1900; a reduction in typhoid fever to one-fiftieth of the rate in 1900; a reduction in the diphtheria death rate to l/85th of what it was in 1900. These are just a few illustrations of what has been accomplished.
There has been a marked reduction, too, in the number of infants who have died in the first year of life, so that the infant mortality rate for the whole of Canada has fallen from ninety-three per thousand living births in 1926, to sixty in 1940. These great reductions in the number of deaths of infants and young children have resulted in an increase in the life expectancy. In the United States the life expectancy in 1900 was 49-2 years. This was raised to 63-7 years in 1942, which represents an increase of approximately 13J years. The position in Canada with reference to life expectancy is very similar. Primarily that increase in life expectancy is due to the great reductions in the death rate among infants and young children. Gratifying as are these results in sickness and deaths very much remains to be done. In 1942 there was something over 6,000 deaths from tuberculosis and something like 250 from diphtheria; far too many. I merely state these things, Mr. Speaker, to point out to hon. members that there is a great field for preventive medicine in Canada and that it can be carried out only if the federal government gives leadership, guidance and financial assistance to the provinces and health educational agencies.
I should now like to say a word or two with reference to the particular matter which was brought up this afternoon by the hon. member for'Portage la Prairie (Mr. Leader), who spoke of Doctor Davidson's supposed cure for cancer. I am not going to make any attempt to refute the arguments or the statistical data he presented to the house. However, lest the impression go abroad in this country that nothing is being done by the medical profession in regard to the study and treatment of cancer, I want to place on record the fact that we have in this country several agencies and men high in the medical profession making a continuous study of the cause and treatment of cancer. There is, for instance, the Rockefeller foundation of New York, which has been one of the greatest benefactors of mankind

in reference to medical research. It has not placed any limit upon the amount of money it has made available to universities and research bodies on this continent in the attempt to find out the cause of cancer and what can be done for it. In addition, we have in this country what is called the Canadian cancer research foundation, which has been carrying: on this work for several years. Every university in Canada, particularly the university of Toronto through the Connaught laboratories, carries on from day to day, every day, research in that particular line; and any worth-while1 suggestions are brought to the attention of one of these bodies and investigated. The British are doing the same thing; they have the British research society for cancer. In this country the medical societies, including the Manitoba medical association, the Canadian-medical association, the public health association and many others, are carrying on this work.
The American medical association and the British medical association review each year what has been done and the advances that have been made, and state definitely the position of the medical fraternity and the medical schools in reference to cancer. They have come to this conclusion, that as yet they do not know what the causal factor of cancer is. They do know, however, as we put it in medical terms, that it is excessive proliferation of a type of cell, which means an excessive growth. Whether that is due to infection; whether it is due to some glandular disturbance; whether it is due to some nutritional disturbance, has not been determined. But just as a few swallows do not make a spring, neither do a few sporadic cases which have obtained benefit from a particular kind of treatment warrant the profession saying, "Here we have a cure for this particular disease."
It has been accepted by the medical profession that no case can be counted cured unless for a term of at least seven years after treatment there is no evidence of any recurrence. To put it briefly, I think I can say that the position of the medical profession to-day is that the cure for this particular disease is surgery and X-ray and radium treatments. I am sympathetic to the point of view which has been put forward by the hon. member for Portage la Prairie, but this form of treatment having been investigated by the medical society of the province of Manitoba-


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: And by Sir Frederick Banting.


James Joseph McCann: -and by Sir Frederick Banting and other authorities. I do not believe this government, the department of'
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health or the national research council should be called upon to spend the money of the taxpayers in further investigation. As far as I am concerned that is sufficient to deal with this matter, and I have placed on record the position of the medical profession in that regard.
I have said a few words in regard to health conditions, and I should like to make one or two observations with reference to social security, which really is to be the objective of this new department. There are many methods by which social security can be obtained for the people of this country. There are avenues which will have to be explored and broadened as the years go by. We have the preventive feature with reference to illness. We must take into consideration whether or not our people are properly housed, whether or not their nutritional requirements are being met sufficiently, and so on. We are a signatory to the Atlantic charter, and if we are to do our part we shall have to give the people of this country freedom from fear and freedom from want. Perhaps the greatest fear the people have is the fear of sickness or of invalidity in their old age, and of their inability to secure a living. These are all avenues which will have to be explored. There is great scope for activity in connection with health, social security and social welfare, open to whoever will be given the duty of guiding this new department. I am sure, with these objectives in mind, together with many others, the condition of the people of this dominion may be very greatly improved in reference to both health and social security.
Mrs. DORISE W. NIELSEN (North Battle-ford) : I think most hon. members are in agreement with the setting up of this department. Personally I welcome it; while not in exactly the form I should have liked, nevertheless it is an advance, and I believe will be generally welcomed by the people of Canada. Naturally the creation of a department such as this opens a very wide range of discussion, but I think there will be other opportunities to discuss the matter of health services, particularly, so that I do not intend to deal with that question this evening.
As I see it, the two main functions of the department as it is now being set up will be these. First, it will provide for intelligent and equitable methods of meeting the modern hazards of our economic life. I believe it definitely implements what was placed before
the country in the Marsh report which, at page 10, quotes the report of the Sirois commission, as follows:
For a large proportion of the population incomes are not sufficient to take care of these contingencies through their own resources. . . . It is impossible to establish a wage which will allow every worker and his family to meet the heavy disabilities of serious illness, prolonged unemployment, accident and premature death. These are budget-shattering contingencies that strike most unevenly.
Second, the department will help to develop greater economic and social stability by providing a more equitable distribution of our national income. That, itself, is a most important thing.
I noticed a short while ago a report in the Montreal Gazette of June 3, with respect to a speech made before the Canadian Political Science Association. The report is as follows:
"Social security has so far received less than adequate recognition as a method of creating employment which is probably more effective than public investment in terms of financial cost," J. R. Beattie of the Bank of Canada in Ottawa declared yesterday at one of the afternoon sessions of the 16th annual meeting of the Canadian Political Science Association at McGill university. "It is true that social security expenditures do not leave bricks and mortar to show in government balance sheets," he said, pointing out that their effect is seen in a higher standard of living and better people, and there is a practical value for every group in the community in the greater eeoonmic and social stability which results.
If my memory serves me correctly, the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) did say this afternoon that some of the measures which now exist, such as unemployment insurance, will remain under other ministers. I feel that this is rather a pity. Of course, that is possibly the only thing that can be done at the present time, but I believe the ideal objective toward which we should all strive would be that of developing an integrated security and welfare programme to cover all hazards, under one department. I hope that condition will develop as time goes on.
In the United States at the present time a bill, known I believe as the Murray-Wagner bill-proposes just that sort of thing. I recognize that certain conditions exist in Canada which do not exist to the same extent in the United States. Difficulties in connection with dominion-provincial relationships which now exist will be, I hope, not exactly ironed out but at least clarified in the coming dominion-provincial conference. I hope that as a result what I have suggested may be made easier of achievement.
The wide range of discussion which perhaps might be allowed under this bill is not what
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I wish to indulge in this evening. I should, however, like to concentrate particularly on one thing. I must say I was a little disappointed when I looked through the various sections of the bill, and gave special attention to section 5. To-night I should like to devote a few minutes of the time at my disposal to speak about one very large group of Canadians, a group which, although not specially represented in the house, commands the interest of every hon. member. The group of which I speak consists, roughly, of 2,000,000 children in Canada. I should have liked to see in the bill-and I still have hopes of seeing it-a separate paragraph in section 5 stating that under the powers given to the minister he may set up a special branch to deal with all matters pertaining to child welfare. In my view the time has definitely come when we should have a certain group of officials dealing specifically with all problems relating to children.
If we tackle the needs of children at the present time, and if we give all the attention that is required to the development of their health and their upbringing, then within a short' space of time-possibly only fifteen or twenty years-we shall seriously reduce our needs for hospitalization, and for all the cares and cures we require to-day.
At the present time we have only two sections of government which deal specifically with the needs of children. Under the Department of Pensions and National Health work is being done by Doctor Couture, who has published an excellent book entitled, I believe, "Mother and Child". The book has had some circulation: but I must confess that in my opinion it has not reached the homes it should have reached. I must be honest and state that although I have copies of it in my office in this building, I have not once seen a copy of that book in any rural home I have visited-where it is needed so desperately. Then, in the Department of Labour we have special officials whose duty it is to look after the day nursery scheme, and creches. I cannot help feeling, however, that this service is quite inadequate to meet the needs of the children of this country.
I would say that any section of the new department, whose officials would be charged with looking after the needs and care of children, would have as its main task the carrying out of a very wide range of educational services, through all types of propaganda available to a department of that kind. This would include the press, women's magazines, radio and films. All matters regarding child hygiene and child welfare should be brought

before the public with much greater force than has been done in the past, and I believe there would result very rapidly a growing consciousness on the part of mothers with respect to the things required by their children.
It would seem that we are about to enact legislation to provide children's allowances. Much as I hesitate, or rather dislike saying this publicly, yet I am a little afraid that, through a lack of knowledge, in many instances those children's allowances will not be used in the best interests of the children concerned. While I am going to support the idea of children's allowances, still I feel that much of their value will be wasted unless, at the same time, they are accompanied by a wide educational campaign which will provide mothers with the information they need to have respecting the best way of spending the money in the interests of their children.
Definitely I believe that the child welfare branch should take over from the Minister of Labour (Mr. Mitchell) that section of his department which deals with creches and day nurseries. I know the minister likes dealing with men, but I am wondering whether he likes dealing with matters of this kind.


Mr. MITCHELL:: I like dealing with
babies, too.


Mrs. NIELSEN:: I think those matters could be dealt with more adequately by a branch such as I have mentioned.
There is a great need, particularly in rural areas, where we have not the same facilities as are found in cities and larger centres, to have more propaganda and more widely circulated information for mothers, by way of literature,. with respect to pre-natal and postnatal care. I cannot appraise too greatly the marvellous work which could be accomplished by officials in such a branch in that field.
There is one other thing which I believe would bring very good results, and that is to have such a department carry on a special campaign with respect to child nutrition. This would be not only an educational campaign, but something of a practical nature. Again, as I said before, the spending of money for children's allowances should be done in such a way that the children would actually receive the value from the expenditure of money. Personally, I cannot think of any single project which could be carried out in Canada where, for the same expenditure of money, the government could provide Canada with the same amount of good returns as by expending it on a nutritional campaign. This could start out by having a practical applica-
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tion in the form of a programme organized throughout the whole of Canada for school lunches.
Some hon. members may feel that that is rather small potatoes, and that it is beneath the dignity of members of parliament to discuss. But, as I said before, I cannot think of anything which would give greater results for the money expended, or which would bring in better returns by way of health and strength for a growing generation, than by bringing into the schools of the nation the practical food requirements which will ensure healthy bodies for our children.
There are various ways of estimating the cost of such a scheme. I am in a position to know that already within the Department of Pensions and National Health there are officials who would do everything within their power, if they were only free to be able to start such a plan, and organize on a wide basis throughout the country. It could be done very amicably, I believe, with the provincial officials also. There need be no friction over it. If the federal government had a department which could organize on a wide scale, it would give impetus to the provincial governments which have already, I know, started programmes so far as they have been able to do so. The whole [DOT] plan could be issued as information; it could encourage not merely hot lunches where they are feasible but even in some places could do what we are doing for some of the Indian children, issuing a special candy with a vitamin content. That is being given to Indian children in some areas, and I can think of many white children, particularly in my part of northern Saskatchewan, to whom it would be well to issue such candy. I see no reason why Indian children should not have it; I am not against that at all. I am saying what a pity it is that our own children cannot have it in areas where it is badly needed also.
There are no figures to prove to hon. members that malnutrition exists among the children. I have not been able to find any figures; yet that it does exist I am certain, Poverty has been one of the main causes but not the whole cause. I will admit quite freely that ignorance on the part of young mothers and in some degree a slight indifference to these things has also been responsible. I believe that in a school lunch programme you could make the focal point the teaching of good eating habits not only to the children but through them to the parents. In that way the scheme would be of very great importance.
I was thinking only the other day of the marvellous work done by women's groups all over Canada in support of the war effort.
We have Canadian clubs, the I.O.D.E., the Red Cross, church groups, the Y.W.C.A., little tiny clubs of women everywhere who have been giving of their time and energy to provide comforts for our soldiers, sailors and airmen. I have often thought to myself, what is going to happen to the energies of all these women when the war is over. Why cannot we, with the setting up of this department, enlist all the energy and ability and willingness of these groups to work on behalf of the children in this country who are in need of help and care so badly? I believe that many of these women's groups would welcome the idea if the department started to organize these many things which are needed on behalf of mothers and children in Canada. So far as the work which is being done for the soldiers, sailors and airmen is concerned, the women do not care what rank a man has so long as he is in uniform. Then comforts and all kinds of things are provided for him. So it is with children; there is no difference between them. Whether they come from the homes of the poor or from middle-class homes, there are many things which need to be done for them, and I believe that this department which is being set up could help to give the women of this country something to go on fighting for and working for after the war is over rather than letting all their effort and energy and initiative lapse for want of stimulation, coordination and organization from a government department. I believe that nothing should be done in this regard in a dictatorial way. It should be rather a matter of suggestion in the beginning. In many local communities you could get action committees set up, organizing programmes to suit the needs of the localities. There need be nothing stereotyped about it, but a wide range should be open for the exercise of the abilities of the women who would take up this work on behalf of the children. It would be a challenge to our women to win the peace which is to come after the war.
I would ask the Prime Minister, who has introduced this bill, if before it passes he would not consider setting up under section 5, among the functions of the minister-I shall not attempt to word the clause-the setting up of a certain group of officials in his department whose special function it should be to care for the welfare and basic needs of the children of Canada.


Mr. JEAN FRANCOIS POULIOT (Temis-couata):: Mr. Speaker, I am fortunate indeed in addressing the house after the two hon. members who have just spoken. One of them, the hon. member for Renfrew South (Mr. REVISED EDITION
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McCann) belongs to one of the learned faculties, and the other, the bon. member for North Battleford (Mrs. Nielsen), is fully qualified as a mother to speak on behalf of the children.
As I did) not agree with the so-called social legislation which was introduced in 1935 by the Bennett government, I do not agree with this kind of legislation, and for several reasons. The main one is that I strongly object to centralization. In my view the more centralization we have in any field, the less efficiency we have.
This bill is astonishing in many respects. It refers to health, social security and social welfare. That is the basis of the bill. Every hon. member who has already spoken on the bill has repeated time and again health, social security, social welfare. What is that? There is no definition in the bill. We have to guess what it is. We have so much difficulty with the interpretation of our obscure legislation as it is now that the least we can ask is a definition of these three terms, " health," " social security " and " social welfare," which together form the cornerstone of this bill, if I understand it well. Why are these terms not defined? Is it to make the bill vague? Is it to circumscribe the operation of the measure to the narrowest possible application? I do not know; I hope not. But here in this bill I point out is a legislative deficiency for which there is no excuse whatever.
What is social welfare? I do not know. What is social security? Who knows what social security is? It may mean everything, and those who are charged with the interpretation of the legislation may remain silent when the question is asked of them. What is health? Health is not defined in the bill. Nobody can say what is the lawmaker's intent with regard to a definition that does not exist. That is the first observation that I have to make in that regard.
The department is defined. There is a very bright definition of it in clause 2, which says:
"Department" means the Department of National Health and Welfare.
Very able! Most profound! The second definition is also very profound. What is the minister?
"Minister" means the Minister of National Health and Welfare.
Most profound! The third definition apparently has been written by some solon of no common genius, because it reads:
"Deputy minister" means the deputy minister, or deputy ministers, of national health and welfare.
Those are the only definitions given in the bill, and I do not understand how the Prime

Minister can introduce a bill containing only those definitions when others are so badly needed. I agree entirely with some statements of the hon. member for Renfrew South. He has told us that the purpose of a bill like this is to promote the health of the people of Canada. I cannot, however, share his views regarding centralization.
The next section deals with the establishment of the department, and the second subsection states:
The minister shall have the management and direction of the department and shall hold office during pleasure.
Section 6 of the bill reads:
The governor in council may establish such boards, committees and councils as he deems necessary, to assist and advise the minister and to cooperate with provincial authorities for the purposes of this act.
The minister is to have the management and direction of the department, but on the other hand he will receive assistance and advice from boards, committees and councils which are to assist and advise him. This means that the deputy minister or deputy ministers who are to be named apparently are not considered competent enough to advise the minister. If that is not carrying bureaucracy to the utmost, I do not know what it is. We are to have not only one deputy minister, but perhaps two, as well as all sorts of bureaucrats surrounding the minister and preventing him from seeing the sick man on the street or anywhere else.
Subsection 2 of section 4 reads:
Such other officers, clerks and employees as are necessary for the proper conduct of the business of the department shall be appointed or employed in the manner authorized by law.
All appointments are supposed to be made by the civil service commission. Years ago the present Minister of National Defence for Air (Mr. Power) said that all appointments to the national defence purchasing board would be made by the civil service commission. We know very well that no dollar a year men have been appointed by the civil service commission up to now. It is true that that board is now the Department of Munitions and Supply. Subsection 3 of section 4 gives me some anxiety. It reads:
Notwithstanding anything contained in the immediately preceding subsection of this section, the governor in council may designate persons who, prior to the commencement of this act, were members of the staff of the Department of Pensions and National Health to be members of the staff of the department, and, upon such designation, such members shall be deemed to have been transferred to the department on the date of the commencement of this act, but no person shall by reason of such designation be eligible to be certified as permanent by the civil service commission.
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AM the bureaucracy of the present Department of Pensions and National Health is to be embodied1 in the new Department of National Health and Welfare. If I am dissatisfied with the bureaucracy of the Department of Pensions and National Health, no matter what may be said in their defence, because people are suffering: on account of their ineompetency; if I complain I shall be told that I am a coward because I attack people who are not here to defend themselves. The fact is that I shall have to go before bureaucrats who will be transferred from the present department to the new one. The name may be different, but it will be the same. Is it possible to think of that? It is most unfortunate.
It may be said that I do not want the Canadian people well looked after, that I do not want them to receive medical care, that I am not sincere, that I use extravagant language, that by opposing this I am against progress. I may be told all that, but I have deep-rooted convictions. During his western tour of 1940 or 1942, I do not know w'hich, the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) said that he regretted that he could not come in contact with the people the same as do private members. It is because I, like other private members, come in contact with the soldiers and the sick people that I express myself as freely as I do.
One main objection is that we do not know what is meant by the bill. The so-called objects of the bill are not defined. My next complaint against the bill is that it is in conflict with the constitution of this country. It goes farther than any other bill has gone to bind provincial executives to dominion boards, to make them subject to dominion legislation. They are to be subject not only to dominion legislation, but to the orders which may be issued by this bureaucracy that we have now and that we shall always have in the . future if a check is not put on them.
Let us come to section 5 which reads:
The duties, powers and functions of the minister . . .
There is a lot of redundant language there which means nothing; it is just legal phraseology.
. . . shall extend to and include all matters relating to the promotion or preservation of the health, social security and social welfare of the people of Canada over which the parliament of Canada has jurisdiction, and, without restricting the generality of the foregoing, particularly the following matters:
(a) the administration of such acts of the parliament of Canada and of orders or regulations of the government of Canada as are not by law assigned to any other department of the government of Canada or any minister thereof relating in any way to the health, social security and welfare of the people of Canada.
100-270i
I object again. Why say "orders or regulations not by law assigned to any other department of the government of Canada"? If all orders concerning health are to be under the new Department of National Health and Welfare, is it not possible to provide that any matter relating to health, if we are to have a department of health, shall be placed under the minister of health? It ought to be easy to draft the legislation accordingly.
Take, next, "investigation and research into public health and welfare"-I am referring to paragraph (b) of section 5. I suggested to the government years ago that they should appoint Sir Frederick Banting as president of the national research council. He was appointed to one of the committees of the national research council after that suggestion was made. But that was not the same thing. The loss of Sir Frederick Banting is still regretted because of the important discovery he made, which has meant so much for the benefit of mankind. But there is no use in making any constructive suggestions. When a suggestion is made it is accepted in so far as the bureaucracy accept it, in so far as it does not affect the privilege and power of the bureaucracy; otherwise it is rejected.
The Department of Mines and Resources will be affected by the bill, as will be seen by reference to paragraph (c) which has to do with "the inspection and medical care of immigrants and seamen, and the administration of marine hospitals, and such other hospitals of the government of Canada as may be committed to its administration by order of the governor in council." What about the admission of immigrants? Will immigrants be admitted under the present immigration law, which is under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Mines and Resources (Mr. Crerar), at the present time, and then looked after and be examined by another department? The immigration branch should be considered as a complete entity, and immigrants cannot be admitted into this country when their physical condition is not up to the standard established by law. How is it then that they will come under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Mines and Resources, and afterwards the Minister of National Health and Welfare will decide whether or not they are physically fit to get into the country? There is no reason for that. That clause is absurd except-


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There is no change from the present.


Jean-François Pouliot: 
Gordon Graydon: That would put him to sleep.


Jean-François Pouliot: To eternal sleep. It showed that he did not know what he was talking about. He has a staff of twenty. He had a chemist there. And do you know what they do, sir? They prepare data for the League of Nations. I brought the matter up in the house after I had all the dope in the committee. It is time to speak of dope when you speak of opium and narcotics. He was there. He was a good and honest civil servant doing so well. He is doing positively nothing. All seizures are made by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, as are all analyses. That man is doing positively nothing. But because he has patronage he has been appointed to that position for which he is entirely incompetent, and given a staff, and now he is an important man and signs narcotic treaties with other nations with his own name, a very important man.
The Quarantine Act comes under immigration. We know about the Public Works Health Act. We then come to the Leprosy Act. Let us pass quickly over that. The next is the Proprietary or Patent Medicine Act. If that is as conscientiously applied as the Food and Drugs Act, I do not know what may happen. The National Physical Fitness Act is the next one. We know that old age pensions, pensions for the blind and family allowances are put in here. I have already said what I thought about them, namely, that the minimum age for old age pensions should be put at sixty-five for those who need them. Pensions for the blind should be given to each human being as soon as it is acknowledged by reputable medical doctors that the child is blind. But those important matters should be under provincial control. If they are under the control of Ottawa we shall have no more success than we had with the farm loans. I very well remember the correspondence I had with the farm loan office here in Ottawa when I tried to secure loans for farmers who had no assets in the form of liquid money. They could not get anything here and it was only after a provincial farm loan was put in force.


Thomas Vien: The hon. member is now straying far afield. He should confine himself to the bill.


Jean-François Pouliot: I am referring to centralization, sir.


Thomas Vien: The comparison was made with the farm loan board, and that does not
come within the terms of the bill. The hon. member has travelled far afield. He should confine himself to the bill.


Jean-François Pouliot: Sir, you know the respect I have for you. Therefore I will not say a word about farm loans.
I now come to paragraph (i) and I find something that is unbelievable. Here we have provincial officers, provincial ministers who will become dominion bureaucrats. Let us read this together: The minister, meaning by that the Minister of Health and Social Welfare, will have jurisdiction particularly over the following matters. Here is one:
Cooperation with provincial authorities with a view to the coordination of efforts made or proposed for preserving and improving the public health and providing for the social security and welfa/re of the people of Canada.
We have health units in the province of Quebec that have been established with the assistance of the Rockefeller foundation, and they have done marvels. Those who do not believe what I say and who are not sure about the fact I will refer to the Quebec minister of health, the Hon. Mr. Groulx. I suggest, that they write asking him for the last statistics of the Quebec health department.
We now come to section 6, which reads as follows:
The governor in council may establish siich *boards, committees and councils as lie deems necessary, to assist and advise the minister and to cooperate with provincial authorities for the purposes of this act.
I have compared that with subsection 2 of section 3. Subsection 1 of section 7 reads:
(1) There shall be a dominion council of health consisting of the deputy minister, who shall be chairman, the chief executive officer of the provincial department or board of health of each province,-
Meaning the provincial minister of health.
-and such other person, not to exceed five in number, as may be appointed by the governor in council, who shall hold office during good behaviour for three years.
Imagine a provincial minister of health being appointed to a council during good behaviour, if he behaves well, for three years! They are not sure that the provincial minister of health will behave well. It is an insult to all the provincial ministers of health of this country. I do not see how any one can accept a position to sit on such a council by virtue of legislation of this kind.
Subsection 2 reads:
Such dominion council shall meet at such times . . .
And so on. Section 11 says that a report is to be submitted. I shall not read section 12,
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but I draw hon. members' attention to it. If hon. members read it they will see that it reads like this well known French sentence:
Quand un gendarme rit dans la gendarmerie, tous les gendarmes rient dans la gendarmerie.
We go on like that. Sir, I want my Canadian people to be healthy. I want them to be well cared for. But I still believe in the old family doctor who is the adviser of every family and who knows the health history of each of his patients. I see in this house hon. members who are well-known family doctors. They are on both sides of the house. They enjoy the respect of all those whom they have known. One of them told me how touching it was to bring into the world a young child when he had assisted the grandmother at the time of the mother's birth. They are the confidants of the families. They are respected; they are helpful; they are available day and night. Can you expect the same degree of devotion from the blacksmiths whom I have denounced, who are now in the army? I wonder if the purpose of this bill is not to give them jobs when the war is over; if it is not intended to give jobs to the very men about whom I have been complaining bitterly, while I have been insulted just because I was defending the soldier and the poor who could not be heard.
The hon. member for North Battleford (Mrs. Nielsen) said that she spoke for the children, who had no representative in this house. I believe that any man who is a father, or any woman who is a mother, is always a defender and protector of children, even after being elected to high office. I wonder, however, if the purpose of this bill is not twofold. I wonder if it is not to give jobs to those who will be unable to have their own clientele when the war is over and, second, if it is not intended to make this country more attractive for immigrants after the war, immigrants of every description who will be let loose upon this country without check. I am not opposed to controlled immigration, but I am opposed to uncontrolled immigration, the kind that has been preached.
I want my people to be looked after first. When I fought to have second-hand clothing from the war department given to the poor people, that could not be done. The Indians could get it but my people could not. In 1940, after the war began but before the United States entered the war, I went to that country to make a special study of the WPA. I made my report to this house, and I was told that it contained too many statistics. What is the use? It is hopeless.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Mr. Speaker, when the hon. member for Renfrew South (Mr. McCann) mentioned the Indian affairs branch I remembered that not long ago I saw a letter in which the Minister of Mines and Resources (Mr. Crerar) said that his department would pay only $2.50 a day for the hospital care of an Indian, a ward of the government. In that particular case I know it cost the city $3 or more a day for the hospitalization of that patient. I believe that the Indian affairs branch should pay prevailing hospital rates if they have to place any of the Indians in those institutions.
There is only one item on which I should like to speak this evening; that is, the lack of hospital accommodation for children who are mentally and physically ill. There are hundreds of these children in Canada, and we have not hospital accommodation for them. Some of them are misshapen; some are unable to understand what is said to them; some are unable to talk; some cannot hear; some cannot walk or look after themselves at all. Their parents must keep them in their homes and look after them as long as they live. I believe that one of the first things the minister of this new department should do is see to it that proper hospitals are provided for these children. He should help the provinces to enlarge the present hospital accommodation in order that these children may be looked after. There is not room for them in the existing hospitals; they have waiting lists of hundreds of children. I know that in many cases the parents of these children would not like to see them go into a hospital, but in many homes these children are causing dissatisfaction and discontent not only on the part of the parents but also among the other children in the home. It is unfair to the other children to have these mentally and physically ill children left in the homes. I am sure that if the minister had been around and had seen some of the cases I have seen, he would do everything possible to see that one hospital was established in each province to take care of these children.


Mr. C. E. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: Mr. Speaker, I believe that the setting up of this new department is a worth-while step, if properly handled, but I think it would be a mistake if this department is not given control of all health services. I feel very sympathetic toward the hon. member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Leader) who spoke so well this afternoon in regard to a cure for cancer. I agree wholeheartedly that the government should assist in every possible way all the research that can be carried on in the hope
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of finding a cure for this disease. I do not agree with the hon. member for Renfrew South (Mr. McCann). I know there are two schools of thought on this subject. There are those old die-hard medical practitioners- thank goodness they are not all that Way- who put their whole faith in surgery and X-ray treatment. If that matter were gone into thoroughly I am quite sure that statistics could be brought down to prove that this method has not been very successful. To me the information given this afternoon by the hon. member for Portage la Prairie was convincing, and more than ample to warrant the government in making further investigations.
While I am on that point I should like to say that there are several treatments for cancer. I am not a medical man, but from my general knowledge of the subject I believe that several treatments have been effective, and they do not include surgery and X-ray. I do not know of one case that has been completely cured by surgery, but I do know of a number of cases which have been cured by other means. A year ago when I was in Calgary I was met by a committee in the Palliser hotel. They were much concerned over this question of the treatment for cancer. If I remember rightly the committee consisted of about twenty to twenty-five persons Nearly all had suffered from cancer; one oi two had goitre as well. In each case the doctors had recommended surgery, even for those who had goitre. I vividly recall one case in particular; that person was given no more than two months to live. Each of these people told me he had been cured, though not by the treatment mentioned to-day by the hon. member for Portage la Prairie. In these cases the treatment had been administered by Doctor Amott, who lives in Ontario. Doctor Arnott has been to this government and to the research council seeking assistance to extend his treatment, but he met with exactly the same consideration which was shown Doctor Davidson, and which was mentioned this afternoon by the hon. member for Portage la Prairie. I do not think that is right, or conducive to the best health treatment of our people. We might find some who are quacks; I have not the slightest doubt about that. But if we investigate 100 cases which are unworthy, we may find that the 101st case might be well worth any expense involved.
Nor am I one who believes that all our health services can be handled efficiently by medical doctors. In this new department I believe it would be a mistake if we excluded
all but medical doctors. I recall that the social security committee, which dealt with the subject of health, heard a gentleman named Doctor Davidson, I believe it was.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes; president of the child welfare council.


Charles Edward Johnston: Yes. He was not a medical doctor, but I venture to say that he had more knowledge respecting the general health of the people than did ninety-nine per cent of the medical doctors, and he gave a most excellent presentation to the committee, one which was most beneficial to all concerned. Men like that are worthy of consideration. If the minister who is to be in charge of this department can get the services of such men, regardless of whether they are medical doctors or not, then I believe the department will be well worth while.
Mention was made this afternoon by the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) about calling a conference of the provinces. There may be some urgent need for such a conference, and I think it would be a good thing. There has already been a conference of ministers and deputy ministers of health from the provinces, who have met in Ottawa within the past two weeks the health officials of the dominion department. This government will not meet any opposition from the provinces, when it comes to a matter of health. In almost every case when health authorities have come to meet dominion officials, it has been the desire of those authorities to go to the full length of instituting health measures. The only thing that has stood in the way has been the financial question. They wanted to extend health services, but invariably they were met with the protest, "We cannot afford it; we have not the money; the dominion government will have to supply it." That, too, is a question which will come before the new department; it cannot be avoided. The same will apply to the new Department of Reconstruction, set up only a few days ago. One of the major questions will be:	Where are you to get the
money? This government, if it is to give the degree of welfare which will be required in this country, will have to solve that problem.
I agree that family allowances are a step in the right direction, but I do not agree at all with the way in which they are to be administered. However, that is another question, which can be dealt with at the proper time. One of the best ways to improve health is to prevent sickness, rather than to try to build up the health of the individual a1 er lick-ness has broken it down.
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The hon. member for North Battleford (Mrs. Nielsen) said that one of the greatest enemies of health is that malnutrition brought about, in many cases, by undernourishment, which, in turn, is the result of insufficient financing. Family allowances, to a degree, will take care of that difficulty if, as was pointed out by the hon. member, there is proper supervision, and proper information is given to the families concerned.
I am not going to, oppose the setting up of this new department, because I believe it is long overdue. It is my hope that the government will hasten the implementing of these improvements to the full.


Mr. G. T. FULFORD (Leeds):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to deal briefly with a matter existing in Canada to-day which I believe the new Department of National Health and Welfare will have to consider immediately at the conclusion of the war. I do not recommend that what I shall suggest should be undertaken right away, because I am aware of the difficulty connected with securing materials and, second, that of securing the necessary workmen to complete buildings.
Speaking, however, as a governor of the Brockville General hospital, I feel that as soon as this war is over, material grants will have to be made to the public hospitals of Canada. Brockville is a town of over 12,000 people. We have two hospitals; one is the Protestant General hospital, and the other is the Roman Catholic St. Vincent de Paul hospital. Since the introduction of the blue cross plan, a plan whereby for so much a week each member of the family is cared for, conditions in the hospitals have become intolerable. To give hon. members an idea of the conditions let me say that in the Brockville General hospital, built originally to accommodate seventy-two beds, there are today 116 beds, and there has been no increase in the size of the building.
I have known of cases concerning women, who,, upon being sent to the maternity ward, have found that ward so crowded that they have been obliged to wait in the corridors. The agony that these poor women suffer is beyond comprehension. Furthermore, it is not fair to those patients who are suffering, perhaps, from serious maladies, but who find themselves placed in rooms adjoining the corridor.
Very few hospitals in the smaller towns have the required isolation facilities for contagious diseases, nor have they proper equipment. I realize that conditions are far better in Eastern Canada than they are in the west, 
chiefly owing to the fact that our distances are not so great, but serving the town of Gananoque, in the county of Leeds, with a population of 3,600, there is no hospital nearer than Kingston. I might add that as late as last week there was no doctor in that town, and had it not been for the good graces of the Canadian army there would be none to-day. Fortunately, however, through the procurement and assignment board, they were able to secure one.
Under any health scheme people will flock more and more to their doctors and the hospitals. I believe that the blue cross hospital scheme has proven that. Therefore, when a health insurance programme is adopted in Canada we must be prepared greatly to enlarge our hospital facilities. And, having Gananoque as an example, we shall also have to be prepared to educate many more young men in the study of medicine. Certainly, as conditions exist to-day, and even taking account of those doctors who will return from overseas, we shall definitely not have enough to satisfy the common needs of the people.
I urge, therefore, that serious consideration be given by the new department 'to the giving of grants to smaller communities to enlarge those hospitals which now exist and, where they do not exist, to enable communities to build community hospitals.


Mr. J. G. DIEFENBAKER (Lake Centre):: Mr. Speaker, up to the present I have not referred to any of the social legislation that has been introduced in connection with the various departments which have been set up. Speaking for myself, I am rather disappointed at the fact that while these new departments of government are being set up, the problem of social security and social welfare is not being faced by this parliament at this time. Everywhere throughout the world to-day, particularly since the war began, there has been an intensification of the desire of people for a maximum of security. Only to-day I was reading a report of the national resources development board of the United States wherein is epitomized the aims and purposes of social security and social welfare in a way that I do not believe has been equalled anywhere else. In this report is set up a bill of rights for the people not only of the United States but throughout the united nations. It summarizes the viewpoint of those who believe that there can be social security and that there can be an extension of our social horizons under a system of private initiative. That
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bill of rights reads as follows, and with the leave of the house I intend to put it on Hansard:
1.	The right to work, usefully and creatively through the productive years;
2.	The right to fair play, adequate to command the necessities and amenities of life in exchange for work, ideas, thrift, and other socially valuable service;
3.	The right to adequate food, clothing, shelter, and medical care;
4.	The right to security, with freedom from fear of old age, want, dependency, sickness, unemployment, and accident;
5.	The right to live in a system of free enterprise, free from compulsory labour, irresponsible private power, arbitrary public authority, and unregulated monopolies;
6.	The right to come and go, to speak or to be silent, free from the spyings- of secret political police;
7.	The right to equality before the law, with equal access to justice in fact;
8.	The right to education, for work, for citizenship, and for personal growth and happiness; and
9.	The right to rest, recreation, and adventure, the opportunity to enjoy life and take part in an advancing civilization.
That, Mr. Speaker, summarizes the aims of social security. I have been struck by the fact that while in the last few days a number of bills have been brought before the house to set up departments of government, there has been no facing up to the issue of making provision for social security. All of us admit the necessity for social security. The only question we have to determine is this-and that challenge comes directly before the members of this parliament-whether or not social security as an actuality can be secured while at the same time we retain our freedom, of whether it is necessary in order to attain that security that we submit to state regimentation.
I submit, after looking over this bill that, while to read it in general would leave the impression that measures of social security are to be brought in, as a matter of fact all that the bill provides is for the machinery, with as yet no provision for the adoption of social security. The result is this: Legislation such as this, this kind of circumlocution, if I may call it so, provides an ideal incubation for political unrest in this country. I feel that the time has come for the government to introduce its measures of social security, for the machinery provided for the measures will be entirely meaningless without the measures themselves being provided.
When I look over this legislation it promises much in the matter of the powers and the duties that will rest on the minister, but it makes no provision for bringing into effect any legislation. Section 5 is a section that I
should like the * Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) to explain. I cannot understand why it is necessary to place in that section these words:
.	. . the promotion or preservation of the
health, social security and social welfare of the people of Canada over which the parliament of Canada has jurisdiction.
Why is there any necessity for these words? Why is there any necessity for a later provision, section 8, which provides:
Nothing in this act or in any regulations made hereunder shall authorize the minister or any officer of the department to exercise any jurisdiction or control over any provincial or municipal board of health or other health authority operating under the laws of any province.
These two sections are redundant; they are unnecessary. The parliament of Canada has jurisdiction only over those matters that are provided for under the constitution. While I do not know what the reason may be, 1 wonder whether those provisions are placed in the bill with a view to being able to explain later, when social security measures that are believed about to be implemented are not brought into effect, that the explanation will be available that they are not within the powers of the parliament of Canada
The Prime Minister should place before the country fairly and adequately the powers which this parliament has in the matter. Today we find all over this dominion, as a result of political unrest-the consequence possibly of political unrest-that many people think they can be the beneficiaries with everyone else being the contributors. By doing so we will guard against the various political parties placing themselves in a position of bidding in competitive benevolence, and promising things that cannot be carried into effect, for the reason that the legislative authority of this parliament does not permit some of these promises being carried into effect.
I feel that a great deal of good would be done if the Prime Minister would set out in detail the extent to which this parliament can legislate under the powers that it now has to provide for the essentials, food, housing and medical care, so that people everywhere in this dominion will know just how far this parliament can go and beyond which it cannot go.
We have now been in session for several months. Promises were made in the speech from the throne. As an example, health insurance seems as far removed from being carried into effect as it was two years ago before the committee was set up.
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I realize the difficulties in connection with jurisdiction and in the matter of the distribution of powers as between the federal and provincial governments, but these matters must be faced. We who believe in a system of free initiative are faced with a challenge more strongly than ever before, that we assure the people of the same measures of social security as promised by those who believe in state regimentation. We must assure the people that those measures can and will in fact be implemented by this parliament and that where parliament lacks the power imme-iiate measures must be taken by cooperation with the provinces to establish a comprehensive system of social security.
We must face the fact that everywhere in this dominion people are saying that we who believe in a system of free enterprise will 1 promise social security but *are unready to take the responsibility of seeing that it is brought into effect. I fear very much that legislation such as this will add to the fears of the people in that connection. We have a greater responsibility than the mere passing of legislation granting powers, and must face,
I repeat, the responsibility of assuring social security under our present system with freedom; otherwise those who believe that these things cannot be secured under our present system will follow the leadership of those who believe that freedom is incompatible with the adoption of social security.
As far as the setting up of a ministry is concerned, the Progressive Conservative party advocated that at its convention in Winnipeg. It advocated the appointment of a minister of social security and reconstruction who would be charged with the administration of social security in this country, and also that the state's share of the cost of the social security system should be borne by the dominion in order to secure an equality of social security throughout the country as a whole.
As I look over this legislation, section 5 would lead me to believe that a great measure of social security is promised and will be adopted, whereas in point of fact, practically the outstanding matters under that section that can be carried into effect will be those in paragraph (g) which refers to the administration of certain acts which will come under the jurisdiction of this department, and the enforcement of rules or regulations made by the international joint commission.
I ask the Prime Minister to place before the country fairly and squarely the powers of this parliament. In addition, I ask him to bring in at the earliest possible date legislation to implement the social security programme and make it applicable to-day and not as of July 1,

1945. What the people are asking is this: What are you going to do? What is your plan? What instrument are you going to set up to carry the plan into effect? What machinery have you in mind? We need more than just the machinery provided here; we need the actual adoption of measures which will assure this country that degree of security which all the united nations are asking for while at the same time maintaining our freedom.


Mr. G. H. CASTLEDEN (Yorkton):: Mr. Speaker, in making a few remarks on the establishment of this department I should like to point out the great need there is in Canada for health and social security. These reforms are long overdue. Canadians in our armed forces and Canadians at home have not forgotten the depression of 1930-39 when under both a Tory and a Liberal regime this country knew want, insecurity and deplorable depression. A million Canadians were on relief and the youth of this land was denied the ordinary right of life. When you want to kill a tree the best method is to cut its roots. If you want to destroy the well-being of a country deny to its youth the right of life. It was only six short years ago when the prayer of the young men of this land, as was stated the other day before the reconstruction committee, was, "give us war in our time, 0 Lord." I do not think we could have a more glaring comdemnation of the failure of the Canadian economic system.
Then overnight Canada blossomed forth into great production. Has not Canada shown what she is capable of producing? With a large percentage of her labour population away she has exceeded any production records that ever existed. She surprised even herself. If the natural resources of this country were properly developed we could exceed the powers of the Canadian people to consume.
Canada reaped a harvest from those years of depression in the fact that when her young mem were called to the armed services the records show that between forty-five and fifty per cent were unfit physically or mentally to don the king's uniform. In thousands of homes throughout this land ill health, insecurity, poverty and want have brought our national standard to a point possibly lower than any of the other self-governing dominions of the Britsh empire. The crime of the whole thing was that it was so unnecessary, as has been proved since this war began.
This bill to set up a Department of National Health and Welfare is in the same category as the other bill to set up the Department of Reconstruction, but I am afraid it is only a gesture to hide the failure of our economy.
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Reconstruction and reform in Canada's social life will not come from the setting up of departments. First of all, this department must have the desire to change what is wrong in our economy. Then it must have the power to change that, a power given by a democratically elected government. Unless there is a change in the viewpoint of the industrial life of this country, such departments as these will be useless. Unless there is a change in the motivated force of our economic life I can see nothing but a return after this war to want and insecurity which will lead ultimately to another war. Under the economic system under which we have operated in this and other countries where irresponsible private enterprise and monopolistic organizations control the economic life of peoples and make money out of war, wars will continue. One would imagine, from reading such bills as have been before the house, that the Canadian people are undergoing a change; that there is a new outlook on life in Canada. Unfortunately, however, when we see what is going on in the industrial life of the country, we find private enterprise so strongly entrenched-


John Ritchie MacNicol: You are talking about
something you know nothing whatever about.


George Hugh Castleden: That is splendid. The hon. member for Davenport has expressed on other occasions the view that he does not think-


John Ritchie MacNicol: You are talking about something you know nothing about. We have heard that before.


George Hugh Castleden: The hon. member has told us before who, in his opinion, should be sitting here.


John Ritchie MacNicol: We are perfectly fed up with that. You may know something about schoolteaching but nothing about industry.


George Hugh Castleden: The hon. member does not think anyone should sit in the House of Commons except those who have provided jobs in the past.


John Ritchie MacNicol: You have never provided jobs to anyone but the man cutting the lawn. You should talk about something you know something about.


George Hugh Castleden: That is what I am doing. I am talking about the depression and about unemployment, about young men who could not make a living on the land, who could not find work-thousands of them-and about the million people who were on relief under the industrial set-up of the country prior to the war, and I claim that all this is
unnecessary in a land where there is such abundance as exists in Canada. I am sorry to see that the trend of private enterprise in these days is rather toward the continuation of the strengthening of their position. Now, when they find the profit motive does not work, they want the guarantee of the state to maintain them in their position. Several glaring examples of this appeared in the evidence given before the committee on reconstruction. I should like to quote the following:	[DOT]
It might be pointed out that some firms engaged in war industry at the present time are faced with the element of uncertainty because the dominion government has not, as yet, laid down a clear policy concerning what is to become of dominion-owned machinery and equipment that is presently in the hands of these companies for their war work.
One such company, in a brief presented to the reconstruction council stated categorically that if they were allowed to purchase these machine tools, equipment and raw materials in their possession for a nominal sum on proof that it would be put to productive use, they could guarantee employment for t]ie 480 of their present employees who wish to remain with them after the war, as well as between 250 and 300 personnel who will be returning to them from the armed services.
Several instances of that kind came before our committee. The Canadian people have the resources wherewith to provide themselves with the food, the clothing, the shelter and the various services which cam. he made use of in this country. They have the resources to provide themselves with all that they need. These resources exist in abundance in Canada. Knowing this, the Canadian people will not tolerate a return to the conditions that have prevailed heretofore. Our social security and welfare will depend upon our ability to distribute these goods and services to the people who need them for their use. What has happened in the past? These natural resources of this great country have been handed over to irresponsible private enterprise and in many cases monopolistic organizations have exploited them at their own desire. I refer to Beauharnois, to the mineral areas of Canada, to the developments of International Nickel, to the vast timber limits handed over to private enterprise, and more recently to such things as power development and the development of oil rights in the Yukon and Northwest Territories.
Until these natural resources, which we hold to be the birthright of the Canadian people, are developed by the people themselves as something which they own, through either state or cooperative organization, to be used by the people themselves and not merely for the purpose of producing profits, where the
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genius of the Canadian people, their ability and their engineers have developed and processed the things they require in order to produce the social security, improvement and welfare of the Canadian people, so as to make the benefits of science available to the masses -until these things are done for the welfare of the people, we can look in vain for any improvement in the social condition of the people of Canada. To the extent to which we can provide ourselves with these requirements we shall have abundance; and when we have surpluses arrangements can be made to exchange them for the things we require from other nations. When that is done we can look for the day of social security in Canada and then provide ourselves with the health services which we need.
It has been implied by other speakers that such a system would mean state regimentation. A democratic cooperative commonwealth in Canada will bring the first real freedom that the Canadian people have known for some decades. This house will do well to remember that we can never have real democracy in this country, political democracy, until we have an economic democracy. Until that is achieved, the passing of such bills is like putting a patch on an old tire. We are not opposing this bill, but we do not look upon it as being very helpful.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I shall not say more than a few words, since I am anxious to get the bill through. I appreciate the general expression of approval of the principle of the bill to establish the new Department of National Health and Welfare, though some hon. members, like the last speaker (Mr. Castleden), have damned the measure with faint praise, while my hon. friend the member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker) has been unduly suspicious about the good that is likely to come out of it. As he was speaking my mind went back to the time over forty years ago, when I received a communication stating that the Liberal government of the day had decided to establish a Department of Labour in Canada, and I was asked if I would undertake the organization of the new department. When I read through the debates I found that the hon. gentlemen opposite had for the most part been questioning the advisability of starting a Department of Labour, and the line of argument they presented almost parallels what the hon. member for Lake Centre has said to-night.
First of all, there was the question of jurisdiction. Was the government sure that parliament was within its jurisdiction in establish-

ing a federal Department of Labour? Was not that something that belonged to the provinces? Up to that time labour questions had been dealt with either by the municipalities or by the provinces, and was it not a waste of public money to start this new department? Then, there, was the argument that it was in the nature of class legislation, caring for people who did not know how to take care of themselves. It was said that every man ought to be able to look after himself without having a department of government to look after him. There were other questions as to what was to be done. Was the government prepared to give some guarantee as to measures that would be carried out, and so forth and so on. Well, the department was started. I am rather proud to say that, when I came to Ottawa to begin the organization of the new department, I had first of all, with the assistance of the then Postmaster General, to find a building in which it could be housed and I had to ask for the loan of his stenographer, so that I might have the stenographic assistance necessary in beginning to organize the work of the new department. I will not say more than that, except to indicate that if a cause is right, the purpose is a good one, and the necessity exists, there is every reason why what may have small beginnings will grow into a service that will be of great national importance.
Is there anyone, to-day, who would say that we ought to abolish the Department of Labour? Is there anyone who would say that the Department of Labour has not been performing its duties within the jurisdiction of this parliament and that it has not been a means and the instrument for furthering the enactment of law after law which has been of the greatest possible benefit to people of all classes in this country? Up to that time there had been no machinery to deal with industrial disputes. The first act that was passed was one having to do with conciliation in industrial disputes. That was followed later by a special measure to deal with disputes on the railways. That was followed still later by the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act. That measure has been followed by others dealing with industrial disputes. I think I am safe in saying that the work which has been done by the Department of Labour in the last forty years in the prevention and settlement of industrial disputes represents a contribution to the national life whose value it would be very difficult indeed to estimate. And as is the case with all these things that are good in themselves, what they may have served to prevent is something in addition which cannot be estimated.
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If we had not to-day the machinery we have for dealing with industrial disputes, which has been developed over the years, I should like to know where we would be at the present time in the matter of prosecuting this war, and in procuring the supply of munitions and supplies which we are producing. The wisdom of a measure of this kind is in what it anticipates, how far it looks into the future and may help to meet the needs of the future. I mentioned only one or two enactments of the Department of Labour. They are enactments with which I had personally to do at that time, and I have followed them with interest ever since, for that among other reasons. I should mention another act which, as a matter of fact, when later I became Minister of Labour, I introduced in this house. It was the Combines Investigation Act. That again was the outgrowth of the then Department of Labour and its work. What had become the method of dealing with industrial disputes became the method of dealing with trusts, combines and monopolies and their anti-social methods in some of their developments. Will anyone say that that work has not been of national service or that it has not been very much needed? If we had not had that act on the statutes, I venture to say the growth of monopolies, trusts and cartels in this country would have been such as few of us at the moment can conceive.
I recall that the first labour legislation that was passed in this parliament was a measure dealing with fair wages on government contracts. That was a measure that subsequently led to the establishment of the Department of Labour. That measure dealt only with government contracts. Comment was made this afternoon from the opposite side of the house in these words: "Tell us what there are in the way of government services that deal with the question of welfare that this department is to have anything to do with? Just what are the federal government services that are to be controlled?" A list of them has been given in section 5 of the bill; but what I wish to point out is that the first work of the federal government in Canada dealing with labour questions related to government departments. It began by seeing that the workers on government work were given a fair day's wage for a fair day's work. That measure subsequently led to the enactment of maximum hours of work and minimum wages which should be paid on all government contracts. That has led to a service throughout this dominion which has secured for the working classes of this country, not only on federal government work, but on work of the provinces as well, working conditions, wages and hours wdiich
may be regarded as fair and just. There is a great measure of social justice applied to government contract work which, but for the establishment, at that time, of the Department of Labour in this country, would not have existed until much later.
I might go on and refer to other measures. I speak of these measures particularly, because I have had to do with them myself. I have watched the effect of the establishment of departments dealing with social questions and where they are likely to lead. Mention has been made several times in the debate in this house of old age pensions. Some hon. gentlemen on the opposite side of the house have been seeking to take credit to their groups for having had to do with the establishment of old age pensions. May I say that if there had not been a Liberal administration in office at the time, which was interested in social questions we would have no old age pensions established at the time we did in Canada. It was the hon. members on this side of the house, who hsd the majority, who were able to put through measures of social legislation and who, to a man, supported my proposal in this house that we should have old age pensions established in this country. But I recall that there again objection was raised on this score of jurisdiction. It was said, what jurisdiction had this dominion in matters of old age pensions? We had to recognize the fact that we had no jurisdiction to establish an old age pension measure and administer it under this federal government. To administer such a measure it was necessary for us first of all to secure an amendment to the British North America Act. If we had been indifferent to the matter of our social legislation we probably would have taken refuge in the fact that the British North America Act was too big a measure for us to attempt to change; but we appreciated the need. We felt that the provinces could not be expected to take up a measure of this kind unless we gave them some assistance, and in order to ensure an old age pensions act being established in Canada we agreed to give assistance to the provinces, provided that they would join with us in enacting the necessary legislation. We passed a measure, a provision of which was that, if the provinces would contribute half, the federal government would contribute half of what was necessary to pay old age pensions, in the several provinces. So as to avoid any question of jurisdiction we agreed to leave the administration of the measure to the provinces.
In saying the British North America Act had to be amended, I had in my mind more
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particularly the unemployment insurance measures. I shall speak of unemployment insurance in a moment. In dealing with pensions we did not wait for an amendment to the British North America Act. But to make perfectly sure that we would meet a great social need in this country, a need that was being felt very keenly at the time, this Liberal administration undertook to see that old age pensions were established. When it became obvious to us that there was a demand for a higher outlay than the provinces were able to meet, at a subsequent session we increased the amount of the dominion's contribution. This was done in order to make sure that this much needed social legislation would go farther in meeting the needs of those whom we are still trying to help because of the difficulties they are experiencing in an industrial age where people, once they can no longer perform certain services in industry, are thrown out of employment without any further recognition of the services that they have rendered throughout their working lives. Well, that is another measure that grew out of the establishment of the Department of Labour.
I come now to unemployment insurance, and here may I say again that, if there had been no Liberal administration in office at the time, there would have been no unemployment insurance. It was in this connection that the objection was again raised that we had no jurisdiction. But we did not let that stop us. We made every effort we could to secure cooperation from the provinces to get the British North America Act amended to give us the required power to enact the legislation. We succeeded in having the British North America Act amended; we secured the jurisdiction, and to-day we have in existence an unemployment insurance measure very far-reaching indeed in its provisions, which, along with the other enactments I have mentioned, forms a very substantial beginning in social insurance. I am told that the fund already has reached the proportions of $200,600,000, which will indicate the scope of that measure.
I could refer to other matters. I recall one in particular, because I was a young minister at the time and felt pretty sensitive over some of the attacks that were made by the opposition. It was in connection with an endeavour to have the dominion take some part in the all-important question of research. I brought in a measure providing for the appointment of a royal commission to deal with the question of technical education. The moment the government spoke of that measure we were told that education in all its aspects

belonged to the provinces; that we had no business interfering with the provinces; that we were invading their jurisdiction.


Gordon Graydon: That is what you said in 1935, too, was it not?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: If my hon. friend will just be quiet I will deal with him in a few moments, if he wishes.


Gordon Graydon: I did not think you would like that interjection, but neither did I think you would make that reply.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I repeat; the objection was raised from the opposite side of the house, as it has been raised to this measure to-night, that we were seeking to invade provincial jurisdiction, and that therefore we should not proceed. Fortunately we did not listen to that argument; we *went ahead and appointed our royal commission, which made very important recommendations with respect to assistance the federal government might give the provinces in the development of technical education throughout Canada. That development has expanded and extended from that day to this, and has been of infinite service to this country. That has been so not only in time of peace; its usefulness has been demonstrated time and again during the period of this war. To-night, when we bring in a measure which I firmly believe will result, through further education in the matter of health, in the prevention of disease and improving the health and well-being of the people, again it is said, "Beware I You are going into a field that is sacred to the provinces; you are stirring up political strife," and so forth. My faith is stronger than that. I believe the day will come, though some of us in this room at the moment may not live to see it, when the service that will be rendered to this nation through the establishment of a department of health and welfare, in helping to preserve health and in preventing illness and disease, will be looked upon as one of the greatest contributions ever made by the parliament of Canada to the national life of our country.
I could go on to mention other measures, but I hope I have said enough at least to entitle me to say with conviction that I have faith in the good that will come from what this government is doing at the present time. I resent very strongly the attitude of some hon. gentlemen in attacking a measure of this kind and in alleging that it lacks sincerity, that it is a paper gesture. I could excuse the hon. member who made that statement because he is new to this house, but I might say to him
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that it ill becomes an hon. member of parliament to speak of any important piece of legislation brought forward for enactment by the parliament of Canada as a mere paper gesture.
Then I come again to what was said by the hon. member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker), who said, "We have had several measures put on the statutes. We have had several departments created. Tell us something this department is going to do; tell us some measure with which it is going to be concerned." I do not know whether my hon. friend was in the house this afternoon when I drew particular attention to one of the most important measures ever placed before any parliament in any country, notice of which appears on the order paper of this house at this moment, in my name; that is the measure to establish family allowances in Canada. That measure will require to be very carefully worked out. Its administration is not going to be easy. The government does not imagine for a moment, human nature being what it is, that there may not be occasions when efforts will be made to show that the purposes which the measure seeks to attain have not been fulfilled in their entirety. In administering that measure we shall require ample safeguards that the money voted by this parliament will be used for the purposes for which it is intended. Some considerable time will be required to prepare for the administration of a measure of such proportions, to make sure that the moment it comes into operation, we shall be in a position to carry out the obligations of the statute in a way that will amply ensure that all expenditures are devoted to the particular purpose for which they are intended. But that is one measure the administration of which might at that well call for a department of welfare.
While I am on this subject I should like to say a word on a matter which arises out of it. This measure, being on the order paper, no hon. member of this house is by the rules permitted to discuss it. It cannot be discussed until it is brought before the house. Knowing this, and knowing that he must know the rules that govern in these matters, I was not a little surprised to read the other evening that the leader of the Progressive Conservative party, Mr. John Bracken, had come out in the public press with a statement that this important piece of social legislation constituted a national bribe, giving as his reason for that statement that the date on which the allowances are to commence has been fixed as from July 1 of next year. I wish Mr. Bracken were in this house. I would ask him to repeat that statement, though I am perfectly sure he would not; Mr. Bracken does not remain out of this house without reason. If he would repeat such a statement here I would appeal to His Honour the Speaker, and ask if any man, leader of a party or not, is entitled to use such an expression with respect to legislation before this house He would be obliged to withdraw the term, and he knows it. In what position are we placed? This is something I wish to emphasize to hon. members and to the people of this country. In what position is this parliament being placed before the people of Canada when the leader of a political party is granted licence to say what he pleases with respect to legislation before this parliament, and no one can call him to order if he violates the rules that have been laid down to safeguard debate and public discussion on great issues? There will be a reckoning one of these days in the matter of lawmaking, where those who are responsible because they are representatives of the people and have seats in parliament are bound to observe rules in the discussion of public questions and discussion is permitted to be carried on outside parliament with no regard or respect for rules by those who have been chosen as leaders of great parties and cannot be obliged to make good their assertions.
I did not intend to speak of that matter tonight; I shall have occasion to speak of it at another time. I wish to say, however, with respect to that particular measure, that I was responsible for fixing the date at July 1 of next year. I took that responsibility for this reason; I have told this house and this country that there will be an election either during the present year or next year, before the efflux of time of the present parliament, which means that this parliament will be dissolved before that measure can come into force. How then can it be said to constitute a bribe? I was seeing to it that it could not be made anything of the kind. I am not going to do what a former leader of the party opposite once did on the eve of an election. I remember an important election when money for wheat in storage was distributed throughout the whole of western Canada within a couple of days before the polling took place. I am going to take great care to see that no one can say that a great social measure of this kind is to have its prestige lowered by being introduced in any way which could be open to question.


Gordon Graydon: Why do we have social welfare thrown into politics, like you are doing to-night?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker-
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Gordon Graydon: It is nothing but Liberal party politics.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: If that is so it is because the Liberal party is the only party in Canada that has placed social legislation on the statutes.


Gordon Graydon: The Prime Minister only believes that.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I believe that and-


Gordon Graydon: You are only whistling while you are going through the cemetery.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Every measure to which I have referred to-night has been a measure with which I have had a great deal to do, and for which I have had a large measure of responsibility. It has been part of a consistent endeavour on my part, as leader of a political party, to see that while need exists in the ranks of the less fortunate in our country, and while something can be done to ameliorate the burdens of the people, and while the opportunity to help is still ours, the party head, the Liberal party, should take all such
measures as would enable us to feel that by our fellow men we were doing our full duty in our day and generation.


Gordon Graydon: Mr. Speaker, I did not wish to interrupt the Prime Minister's remarks May I just say that I do not believe-


Thomas Vien: Order.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The hon. member has spoken.	.


Gordon Graydon: May I just say this, that you are very much afraid of John Bracken.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read a second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Golding ;n the chair.
On section 1-Short title.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: It is now five minutes to eleven. I would therefore move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again.
Section stands.
Progress reported.


[Stage Direction]
. At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.