1944-04-24

Mr. J. H. BLACKMORE (Lethbridge):: On Thursday last I made a motion respecting the incorporation of the Alberta Provincial Bank. The Prime Minister suggested that I allow it to stand until another day. I now beg leave to move once more, seconded by Mr. Jaques: That,-
(1) The petition of Ernest C. Manning and others, of Edmonton, Alberta, presented on 	.
March 29, 1944, praying for the passing of an act to incorporate the Alberta Provincial Bank;
(2) The report of the clerk of petitions on the said petition; and
_ (3) The private bill deposited with the Clerk of the House on April 17, 1944, based on the said petition;
be referred to the standing committee on standing orders to consider the suspension of,-
(a) Standing order 92 (late presentation of the petition);
Ob) Standing order 93 (1) (late depositing of the bill); and
(c) Standing order 93	(3)	(a) and (e)
(consequential penalty charges).


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. GERSHAW:: 1.	What board or department of government is responsible for maintaining a fair price on live stock, particularly cattle, sheep and lambs?
2.	How is this being done, and what basis is used in relating the value of live animals to the dressed meat prices?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	The Department of Agriculture provides a support price for live stock through the operations of the meat board in purchasing meat for export to the United Kingdom.
2.	The meat board purchases lamb carcasses and all better qualities of beef suitable for rationing in either carcass or boneless form and lower qualities of beef in boneless form for manufacturing purposes, at * established floor prices. The purchase of surplus beef and lamb for export to the United Kingdom provides a support price for live stock in the same manner as the purchase of bacon for export provides a support for hog prices. The price of live cattle and lambs in relation to the floor price paid for beef and lamb purchased by the board is entirely dependent upon the dressing percentage and the quality of live animals slaughtered.


FLOOR PRICES ON BEEF
Mr. SENN:: 1.	Has a floor price been placed on beef by the government or any department thereof?
2.	If so, w'hen did it come into effect?
3.	When vras the decision announced?
4.	What price has been set for the different grades of beef?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	Yes.
2.	For the period May 27, 1943 to August 14, 1943, with successive seasonal adjustments thereafter.

Questions
3.	On or about June 7, 1943.
4.	Floor prices were established in relation to ceiling prices, in the various W.P.T.B. meat zones, and for the various qualities of beef (special, commercial, plain, cutter, cow and bull) as follows:
May 27, 1943 to August 14, 1943, .25 below the ceiling.
August 16, 1943 to September 18, 1943, SI below the ceiling.
September 20, 1943, to December 18, 1943, $2.25 below the ceiling.
December 20, 1943, to February 5, 1944, $1.75 below the ceiling.
February 7, 1944, to March 18, 1944, SI.25 below the ceiling.
March 20, 1944, to April 22, 1944, .75 below the ceiling.
April 24, 1944, to August 14, 1944, .25 below the ceiling.


ALLOTMENT OF CARS TO LINE ELEVATORS
Mr. COLDWELL:: 1.	Are ears allotted to elevators for shipment of grain based on 1939-40 handling?
2.	What amount of grain did the line elevator companies handle at Craik, Saskatchewan, in
' 1939-40?	.
3.	What amount of grain did the pool elevator handle at Craik, Saskatchewan, in 1939-40?
4.	How many cars have been allotted to line elevator companies at Craik, Saskatchewan, between August 15, 1943, to April 1, 1944?


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: 1.	No. Cars for the shipment of wheat from the majority of shipping stations have, since October 23, 1943, been authorized in accordance with the percentage of business the various elevator companies at each station handled during the crop seasons 1938-39 and 1939-40 combined. At stations where some of the elevators were closed, part or1 all of these seasons, it was not considered equitable to put this basis into effect and it was necessary for the board to work out some more satisfactory plan.
2.	256,910 bushels net.
3 . 440,340 bushels net.
4. 181 cars of wheat authorized for shipment. PRAIRIE FARM ASSISTANCE-PAYMENTS SINCE 1939


Mr. FAIR:: 1.	What amount was paid as bonus to farmers in each of the prairie provinces since 1939 under the prairie farm assistance, prairie farm income and wheat acreage reduction bonuses?
2.	What was the cost of administration of each bonus each year?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1. Bonus payments (to February 29, 1944):
Manitoba	Saskatchewan	AlbertaPrairie Farm Assistance	
Prairie Farm Income	
Wheat Acreage Reduction	
$1,557,795 56 	
2,992,508 72 	
12,046,450 48	$27,130,035 69 10,320,762 39 44,949,725 74	$6,375,391 42 5,680,521 17 24,021,402 242. Administration costs:	Prairie Farm Assistance	Wheat Acreage Reduction1939-	40 	
1940-	41 	
1941-	42 	
1942-	43 	
1943-	44 (to Feb. 29, 1944)	$266,595 62 , 346,764 89 422,459 67 . 197,927 92t , 205,794 37	$ 979,535 05 1,342,230 06 763,413 20
flncurred in investigation of claims carried over from 1941 and in inspection of 1942 crop. Prairie farm income administrative costs are included in the above figures for P.F.A. and W.A.R. administration.


WOOL SUBSIDIES
Mr. REID:: 1.	Is any subsidy being paid by the government for the production of wool?
2.	If so, what subsidy is being paid wool growers in the various provinces?
3.	What provinces, if any, have not accepted any subsidy offered the wool growers by the dominion government?
4.	What amounts of money have the wool growers received in each province during 1943?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	No subsidy is paid by the government for the production of wool. Under authority of order in council P.C. 1/2519 of 29th March, 1943, however, the dominion government was authorized to reimburse any provincial govern-
Questions

ment one-half of any bonus (the dominion government's share not to exceed 2 cents a pound) paid by the provincial government on wool of the 1943 clip, delivered to registered wool warehouses and prepared in accordance with specified standards of cleanliness. Under order in council P.C. 2/1000 of 18th February, 1944, a similar arrangement is authorized for the wool of the 1944 clip.
2.	The bonus paid for the 1943 clip by those provinces participating was 4 cents a pound. No definite information is available as to the rate of bonus which provincial governments will pay in regard to the 1944 clip.
3.	1943 wool clip-British Columbia and Manitoba did not participate. 1944 wool clip -British Columbia and Manitoba have intimated they will not participate; Alberta and Saskatchewan have the matter under consideration; other provinces have indicated they will participate.
4.	Prince Edward Island, $990.28; Nova Scotia, $8,197.36; New Brunswick. S641.16; Quebec, $3,406.12; Ontario, $109,293.10; Saskatchewan, claim not yet received; Alberta, claim not yet received.


QUEBEC HYDRO
Mr. DORION:: 1.	Has the government of the province of Quebec obtained from the wartime prices and trade board a permit to operate an industry in the province of Quebec called the Quebec Hydro?
2.	If so, when was such permit obtained, and by whom was it issued?


Mr. ILSLEY:: 1 and 2. No. Under section 11, subsection
(b)	of wartime prices and trade board order No. 2S4, respecting commencement, acquisition and expansion of business, a permit is not required by any undertaking operated by or on behalf of the government of the dominion or any province of Canada or by or on behalf of any agency thereof.


TROOPS RETURNING FROM OVERSEAS
Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	What is being done within Canada to notify in advance next-of-kin of the arrival home of wounded soldiers and those on leave from overseas?
2.	Will some change be made in the "troop movement rule" now existing to enable next-of-kin to meet them at the station on arrival home, as in the last war?
3.	Are arrangements being considered for the loan of military bands at depot, and any available motor vehicles to aid civil power taking them home on arrival?


Mr. MACDONALD (Halifax):: Answers
which I think will be found satisfactory by the hon. member for Broadview were given by the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Ralston) in answer to questions asked by the leader of the opposition (Mr. Graydon). Those answers will be found at pages 2181 and 2233 of Hansard for this year. I would ask that the question stand in order that the hon. member may look at these references to see whether or not they sufficiently answer his questions.
Question stands.


PUBLIC SERVICE-LADY INVESTIGATOR IN OTTAWA
Mr. LACOMBE:: 1.	At the present time, does a certain lady visit employees of the federal government during their w-orking hours, in the city of Ottawa, and is she holding an investigation with regard to such employees?
2.	If so, who is this lady, and who gave her authority to make such investigation?
3.	For ivhat purpose is the lady engaged in such investigation?
_ Mr. McLARTY:	I believe this question
will have to be clarified before it will be possible to answer it. A number of ladies are employed in investigating working conditions, in regard to reclassifications, and so on; and the way the question is drawn at the moment it would be impossible to answer it. I suggest that the question be dropped and that the hon. member for Laval-Two Mountains may wish to frame another question which will better serve his purpose, and clarify the particular information he requests.
Question dropped.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. BOUCHER:: 1.	Is the Canadian Vickers plant in Montreal, at which the Douglas D.C. 4 is to be produced, owned by the government of Canada?
2.	What is the amount of the total investment of the government of Canada in Canadian Vickers Limited of Montreal?
3.	Is there any person or company holding any interest, by capital investment, mortgage loan or otherwise, in the Canadian Vickers Limited, other than the government of Canada?
4.	What is the name of each member of the board of directors of the Canadian Vickers Limited, and by whom were they appointed?

Questions as Orders jor Returns


CIVIL SERVICE-CERTIFICATES OF APPOINTMENT TO MEN OF MILITARY AGE AND FITNESS
Mr. DUBOIS:: 1.	Have any temporary or permanent certificates of appointment been issued by the civil service commission to men of military age and fit for military service for employment in the public service since the passing of order in council P.C. 4759 on June 27, 1941, to March 31, 1944?
2.	If so, what are, (a) the names of the appointees; (b) details of the position appointed to; (c) dates and reasons for such appointments ?



BELL TELEPHONE COMPANY

Mr. NICHOLSON:: What is the total amount which has been paid to the Bell Telephone Company of Canada by the dominion government since the outbreak of war?



OTTAWA PUBLIC BUILDINGS

Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: 1.	Did the government buy any buildings in Ottawa since January 1, 1943?
2.	If so, -what buildings?
3.	What was the purchase price?
4.	Did the government build any buildings in Ottawa since January 1, 1943?
5.	If so, what buildings did they build?
6.	How much did each cost?



FUEL WOOD

Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: 1.	Did the government, through the wood fuel controller, or any other official, issue a directive to any pulp-wood operators in Ontario to cut fuel wood in the spring and summer of 1943?
2.	If so, on what date was such a directive issued?
3.	To how many persons or firms was such directive issued?
4.	Were contracts entered into with the companies or persons indicated above?
5.	Were meetings held at the lakehead by the wood fuel controller in May or June, 1943, to discuss wood fuel production?
6.	If so, were records kept of the meeting?
7.	What representations were made by person or persons attending these meetings, regarding the advisability of continuing to cut pulpwood, and as to the feasibility of supplying fuel wood shortage during the winter of 1943-44 out of pulpwood stocks?
8.	Did the wood fuel controller make any report, finding or order that if necessary pulpwood could be diverted to use as fuel wood in case of need?
9.	Did any official of the government make a report to the wood fuel controller on the lake-head fuel wood operations during the spring or summer of 1943?
10.	If so, what action was taken in respect to his recommendations?
11.	How many cords of fuel wood were produced at the lakehead in Ontario under these special contracts?
12.	How many cords have been shipped from there to, (a) points in the Ottawa valley; (b) points in Manitoba?
13.	What were the freight charges per cord of wood on the wood shipped to, (a) points in the Ottawa valley; (b) points in Manitoba?
14.	How many cords, if any, were shipped to points in Ontario?
15.	Was any of the fuel wood shipped to Manitoba used for purposes other than fuel wood ?
16.	To whom was fuel wood shipped from the lakehead to Winnipeg, and what price per cord was paid for the same, and were any shipments of wood designated as fuel wood disposed of to box manufacturers? If so, what price per cord was paid for the same?
17.	What price is paid by box manufacturers in the open market for wood produced for that purpose in the province of Manitoba?
18.	Was there any shortage of fuel wood in the lakehead region in the winter of 1942-43?
19.	Was there any shortage of fuel wood in Port Arthur or Fort William during the winter of 1943-44?
20.	Was any attempt made to have pulpwood producers or logging companies in the Ottawa valley, Sudbury or North Bay districts, take out fuel wood during the winter of 1943-44?
21.	Are there stands of timber in Renfrew county, Nipissing, Sudbury districts. Sault Ste. Marie district, Kenora district, or Rainy River district, suitable, (a) for pulpwood; or (b) for fuel wood?
22.	If so, were any attempts made by the wood fuel controller or any official of the government to encourage the cutting of, (a) pulpwood; or (b) fuel wood in any of these districts?
23.	Were directives issued to Quebec pulp and paper companies to cut fuel wood?
24.	On what dates were such directives issued, if any?
25.	Were arrangements made during 1943 to have Quebec pulpivood producers cut fuel wood?
26.	If so, on what terms were the contracts made?
27.	If contracts were authorized, or authority issued for' the cutting of fuel wood by pulpwood producers in the province of Quebec, did the government fuel authorities receive any representations from operators in Ontario, or their representative association, asking that the Ontario contracts be written on the same basis as those for the province of Quebec?
28.	How much fuel wood,, if any, was cut by the Quebec pulpwood operators?
29.	How much has been shipped, and -what *was the freight per cord on this fuel wood?
30.	How much was paid out in the form of subsidy to fuel wood producers in, (a) Ontario; (b) Quebec; and (c) New Brunswick?



YUKON CIVIL SERVANTS

[Stage Direction]
Mr. BLACK (Yukon);
1.	Is the amount paid to civil servants in Yukon made up of stated sums termed salary, and stated sums termed living allowances?
2.	Are both such sums considered salary for the purpose of income tax?
3.	Are civil servants in Yukon assessed income tax on both of such payments?
Motions jor Papers
[Stage Direction]
4.	If the answers to questions 2 and 3 are in the affirmative, are such civil servants assessed on both said amounts for contribution to civil servants' superannuation fund and, if not, why are they assessed income tax on both?

Mr. LACOMBE:: 1.	Did the government, since January, 1940,
appoint guards or officers at St. Vincent de Paul penitentiary?	.
2.	If so, how many were appointed during the years 1940, 1941, 1942, 1943 and 1944?
3.	What are the names of these guards or officers, and their respective places of residence?
4.	Was the appointment of these guards or officers recommended by other persons than the Minister of Justice, and if so, who are these persons ?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: For a copy of the agreement forming the basis of the taking over by the government, by order in council P.C. 535 of 1944 (through a crown company known as the Eldorado Mining and Refining Company) of the property of the Eldorado Mining and Refining Limited, and the purchase of the shares from its shareholders; together with a statement showing the name of each shareholder, the number of shares in each ease, and the price paid by each shareholder for the shares turned over to the crown company, or to the agent acting for the government.


Mr. HOWE:: I have had a word with the mover of this resolution, and I understand he would like to have it dropped, with the possibility that he may reword it later.
Motion dropped.



ELDORADO MINING AND REFINING LIMITED

[Stage Direction]
Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's);
For a copy of the trustee agreement between "The Trusts and Guarantee Company Limited" and the government, or its agent, or the crown company known as the Eldorado Mining and Refining Company, giving effect to order in council P.C. 535 of 1944, regarding the acquisition by the crown of the property of the Eldorado Mining and Refining Limited; together with a copy of the balance sheet of the Eldorado Mining and Refining Limited for the year 1943. Also a copy of the list of shareholders of the said company as at the date of surrender of the affairs and property of the company to the government, or its agent, under order in council P.C. 535 of 1944.
Mr. HOWE; My remarks in regard to the previous resolution apply to this one as well.
Mr. SPEAKER:: Dropped.


Mr. GRAYDON:: I take it the minister means that the dropping of this motion would

be without prejudice to the hon. member bringing forward a different motion on the same subject on another occasion.
Mr. HOWE; How could it possibly be to his prejudice?
Motion dropped.
MUNITIONS AND SUrPLY-ADJUSTMENTS WITH CONTRACTORS


Mr. BOUCHER:: For a copy of all statements of adjustments made with contractors by "proceedings on a less formal basis" than by exercise of powers under subsection 4 of section 13 of the Department of Munitions and Supply Act, and said to have been made with sixty-seven manufacturers.


Mr. CHEVRIER:: In connection with this motion I must say that it is definitely not in the public interest to produce the papers requested, for the reason that it would be prejudicial to the success of future negotiations with contractors to the department. As was pointed out in reply to a similar question by the hon. member for Hastings South (Mr. Stokes) on February 24, 1944, at page 802 of Hansard, such excellent cooperation has been received from manufacturers in making refunds against too-great profits made possible by new manufacturing techniques that in no case has it been necessary to exercise the powers given the minister under subsection 4 of section 13 of the Department of Munitions and Supply Act. Also I would point out that in many of the sixty-seven cases mentioned by the hon. member renegotiations are in progress for added savings to the government, in addition to the $119,107,000 mentioned by me in my report to the house at page 1761 of Hansard for March 23, 1944, in which I also dealt with the renegotiation of contracts. Therefore I request that the motion be dropped.
Motion dropped.



AIR TRAINING PLAN-CLOSING OF AIRPORTS

Mr. WHITE:: For a return showing the names and numbers of the airports established under the joint air training plan, which are to be closed during the year 1944, with the total cost to date of each airport, including cost of lands, buildings, runways, water supply, sewerage, equipment and all other costs of construction.



VISIT TO CANADA OF REV. K. KOTOWSKI

Mr. DORION:: For a copy of all letters, telegrams and other correspondence between the department of public information, the wartime information board, the Department of External Affairs and Rev. K. Kotowski. with respect to the visit to Canada of this gentleman.

Motions for Papers



AIRPORT CONSTRUCTION-INSPECTION OF MATERIALS -J. FRANCOIS LEDUC AND ASSOCIATES

Mr. LACOMBE:: For a copy of all telegrams, letters, correspondence and other documents exchanged since January 1, 1940, between the dominion government or any department thereof, and J. Francois Leduc, and associates, consulting engineers, 354 Ste. Catherine street east, Montreal, regarding the awarding of contracts by the government, for the inspection of materials at the various airports under construction by the Department of Transport.



SWITLICIC CANADIAN PARACHUTE LIMITED

Mr. ROY (for Mr. LACOMBE):: For a copy of all letters, telegrams, correspondence and other documents exchanged since the 1st January, 1940, between the dominion government, or any department thereof and Switlick Canadian Parachute Ltd., 3575 St. Lawrence street, Montreal, concerning contracts awarded by the Department of Munitions and Supply to the said company.


Lionel Chevrier: I wish to point out to the hon. member that over 250 files and well over a thousand pieces of correspondence would have to be produced to satisfy his motion. This work would require to be done by personnel directly engaged on current war orders, and I suggest it is not in the public interest to have this done at this time. If the hon. member would care to indicate to me or to officials of my department the specific information he requires, I shall be happy to see that he gets it. I request that this motion be dropped.


Thomas Vien: The hon. member is not
in his place; should the motion stand?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Dropped.


Thomas Vien: Dropped.


Gordon Graydon: I know' nothing about this question, Mr. Speaker, but by the same department it has been stated twice that it is not in the national interest to give certain information. Having regard to the circumstances in this case, with the hon. member being away, I think in all fairness the motion should be allowed to stand.


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: The motion has been made and the government is expected to give an answer. The answer has been given, that it is not in the public interest to meet its request. The motion should therefore be dropped. Since the motion is not debatable, there is nothing to be gained by having consideration of the matter postponed until the hon. member is in his seat. I think it should be dropped.
Motion dropped.



CHINESE IMMIGRATION

Mr. NEILL:: For a copy of the draft of an immigration treaty, which was presented to the Chinese minister on January 17, 1944. and referred to by the Right Honourable the Prime Minister in his statement to the house on April 17, 1944, at page 2126.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The hon. member for Comox-Albemi will recognize that his motion involves an important question of principle, that principle being that the privilege of privacy must be granted to exchanges of views between negotiating countries. Perhaps I -might say a word to the house on this matter of the negotiation of treaties.
Hon. members will realize that international treaties and agreements require a thorough and frank exchange of views between the parties involved. In some eases it is possible, after a certain fundamental stage of agreement has been reached, and especially when the treaty is a multilateral one, for the final modifications and expressions of view to be made at conferences which are open and public. However, the general principle is recognized in all countries and is, I think, of basic importance in international relations, that exchanges of views between countries in the course of negotiation of an agreement should not be made public by either party. It is obvious that the fear of misunderstanding, and the necessity of defending publicly any expression of view v'hieh might be only a tentative one set forth to explore all possibilities, would make it impossible for governments or their representatives to express themselves freely and frankly if they had to consider the possibility of publicity being given to their every word and proposal. Such a situation would render virtually impossible the negotiation of agreements and understandings between countries.


Alan Webster Neill: Did not the Prime Minister make it a public document when he alluded to it in the house?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No. I alluded to the fact that a treaty was being negotiated, but beyond mentioning the subject, I did not disclose any of the terms of the treaty.
Motion dropped.



CUSTODIAN OF ENEMY PROPERTY

Mr. AYLESWORTH:: For a statement giving the name, in each case, of the custodian of enemy property and his full staff, together with a description of the duties and salaries received.
22S0
Motions for Papers



LABOUR CONDITIONS-HUDSON BAY MINING AND SMELTING COMPANY  FLIN FLON

Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: For a copy of all correspondence exchanged Detween the Department of Labour and Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company and/or the welfare board of Flin Flon, Manitoba, during 1943 and 1944 in connection with wage agreements.



GRAPEFRUIT JUICE-IMPORTS AND SUBSIDIES

Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: For a copy of all correspondence, letters, telegrams, permits, or authorizations, passing between or issued by the wartime prices and trade board (or any of its officials), to any person or persons, or firm or firms, regarding the purchase and importation to Canada of grapefruit juice during the past year; together with a statement showing the invoice price and the amount of subsidy paid on the same, and to whom the subsidy was paid.
Mr. ILSLEY.: Mr. Speaker, this raises an important question which has been dealt with on several occasions. It is not regarded as being in the public interest to disclose the names of individual recipients of subsidies. The reasons for this position have been given by me in the house on at least two occasions.
I find that on April 17, 1944, an answer to a question by the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank) contains this:
A statement of government policy in connection with revealing the names of applicants or recipients of subsidy appears on page 2719 of Hansard for May 14, 1943.
One ground for the rule which has been adopted is that to give the subsidies paid to recipients reveals to importers the business of their competitors, and gives them information as to the amount and type of business being done.


Thomas Vien: Dropped.


Gordon Graydon: Have there not been instances where similar questions have been answered by the government?


James Lorimer Ilsley: No; I am practically sure that there has never been such an instance. The position was very carefully considered in the spring of 1942 and again in the spring of 1943. It was stated in the house at the time, without any exception being taken to it, so far as I know.


Mr. COLDWELL:: It seems to me that this principle should be clarified, because it involves the payment out of public moneys to individuals. It is the duty of the house to see to it that all such moneys are scrutinized in parliament. The principle which has been followed is a dangerous one.


James Lorimer Ilsley: I admit the difficulty.
Generally speaking it has a salutary effect on the whole public service if it is realized that any amounts, payments for which are authorized, are subject to review by parliament. One has to weigh that advantage against the disadvantage of making available to competitors the current business of those about whom the information is sought. The effect would be to make available to importers the current business of their competitors. We thought it would be best not to give this information. The department thought it could be given later in another way. If the hon. member will look at the debates on the subject he will see that that point is considered. I must say however that I do not regard it, nor does the government regard it, as in the public interest to give information which would tell importers of the particular commodities, the exact amounts, and the extent and type of business done by their competitors.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: At the present time practically every grocery store in Canada is pushing the sale of grapefruit juice in gallon cans. I believe the public should know whether a subsidy is being paid, and to whom.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Oh, well; there is no objection to that. I will give the information as to whether a subsidy is being paid, with the basis upon which it is being paid. The only thing I would object to is giving a list of the names of importers, and the amount each one gets. It would be on the same basis to everyone.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Would there be any difficulty in the minister's tabling that?


James Lorimer Ilsley: No.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: And after that, would there be any harm in showing me privately to whom these are paid?


James Lorimer Ilsley: I do not like the latter part of the suggestion.	'


Gordon Knapman Fraser: It
has been done before.


James Lorimer Ilsley: I really do not like it, because I do not think it is fair to other hon. members.


Major James William Coldwell: That is right.


James Lorimer Ilsley: But I will readily comply with the first part of the request. If the hon. member will reframe his motion I believe there would be no objection to it.

Motions jor Papers


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Why not let the minister table the answer, as he has suggested?


James Lorimer Ilsley: All right; I will consent to the passing of the motion, subject to the considerations and exceptions I have mentioned.


Gordon Graydon: The question raised by the minister is an important one. Despite the fact that decisions have been made previously in respect of government policy, I think it is a question of balance, of deciding whether the public interest would be better served by having the information tabled in the house on occasions such as this, or whether there would be the possibility of an abuse arising from having matters hidden in the public accounts. That is a matter to which I suggest the government should give consideration.


James Lorimer Ilsley: We have given consideration to it.	.


Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: I should like to
say a word on this matter. Too often lately there has been a denial to hon. members of information they wish to have and to which I believe they are entitled. The other day in sessional paper 267 I asked certain questions, to which a return was given. My questions were these:
1.	From whom was coal purchased for Dundurn military camp in the province of Saskatchewan during the year 1943, and to date?
2.	What were the grades supplied, and the price per ton?
And so on. The answer I received was this: It is the policy of the department not to give unit prices or contract amounts against tonnages.
After all, hon. members have a right to information, as has been pointed out by the hon. member for Rosetown-Bigger. Here is a department of government which refuses to give information to members as to the cost prices of coal purchased with government money. Certainly the public interest does not deny" information of that kind to hon. members.


Thomas Vien: Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion, subject to the reservations made by the minister?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: For a copy of all claims made for subsidy on new potatoes produced in the province of New Brunswick together with all correspondence connected therewith, exchanged between the
Commodity Prices Stabilization Corporation and all others relating in any way to payment of same between August 1, 1943, and the present time.


James Lorimer Ilsley: The same consideration
exactly applies to this motion, and I do not see any way in which it could be amended, because the only information asked for is the names of recipients and the amounts paid to them. The period covered comes down to a late date, August 1, 1943.


Gordon Graydon: May I ask the government to be good enough to allow this to stand?
Motion stands.



FUEL WOOD-LAKEHEAD TO WINNIPEG

John George Diefenbaker: For a statement disclosing the particulars of any contract or arrangement authorized by or made between the wood fuel controller and any manufacturer of boxes for the utilization of fuel wood shipped from the lakehead to Winnipeg, showing the price per cord paid for the same; also a copy of any correspondence, record of discussions, contracts, or agreements appertaining to the same.



FUEL WOOD-CONTRACTS WITH ONTARIO OPERATORS

John George Diefenbaker: For a copy of all documents, letters, correspondence, proposals, or representations, made by pulpwood producers of the province of Ontario, their representative or association, to the wood fuel controller or any other official of the government, asking that the Ontario operators be granted contracts on the same terms as those granted to producers of pulpwood in the province of Quebec.



PULPWOOD AND FUEL WOOD PRODUCTION

John George Diefenbaker: For a copy of any correspondence, contracts, arrangements, or directives, made or issued 'by the wood fuel controller or any official of the government with pulpwood producers in the province of Quebec during the year 1943; together with reports or recommendations or minutes of any meetings where pulpwood and fuel wood production was discussed with producers in the province of Quebec.



FUEL WOOD AND PULPWOOD

John George Diefenbaker: For a copy of all instructions, or directives, or contracts, made iby or entered into between the wood fuel controller, or any other official of the government acting on behalf of the government, and the pulpwood operators in Ontario during the spring and summer of 1943, for the cutting of fuel wood, or the cutting of pulpwood which might in an emergency be used as fuel-wood; together with copies of reports or minutes of any meetings held at the lakehead by the wood fuel controller in May or June, 1943, at which meetings fuel wood production was discussed; together with a statement of copies of
Further Legislation

any representations made by pulpwood operators or their representatives to the effect that they be permitted to continue to cut pulpwood, and that if a serious fuel wood shortage developed during the winter of 1943-44, the said pulpwood be taken over and used as fuel wood under the direction of the wood fuel controller; also copies of the report or reports of the wood fuel controller on the lakehead fuel wood operations during the spring and summer of 1943, including therein a copy of his recommendations.



CANADAN VICKERS LIMITED-D-4 AEROPLANES

Mr. BRUCE:: For a copy of all correspondence and contracts between the government of Canada and Canadian Vickers regarding the building of D-4 aeroplanes.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gordon Graydon: Following my inquiry of Friday last I should like to ask the Prime Minister what further legislation the government proposes to bring down during the present session. Perhaps I may couple with my question, as I did on Friday, an inquiry as to when the budget may be expected.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Mr. Speaker, with regard to the latter part of the inquiry I may say that I hope to be able to present the budget shortly after the middle of May.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: In reply to my hon. friend the leader of the opposition, may I say that in addition to the social and other legislation already on the order paper and the usual financial measures, the following measures, most of which were forecast in the speech from the throne, have still to be introduced. There will be the Bank Act amending bill and a measure respecting the Quebec Savings Bank. There will be ancillary legislation to provide for credits for agriculture, and a measure for the insurance or guarantee of export credits. There will be national housing legislation, and a measure to provide for family allowances. There will be legislation to provide for a floor under farm prices, and legislation respecting administrative machinery for the disposal of surplus w'ar assets. There will be an act to amend the Aeronautics Act to provide for the establishment of an air transport board with consequential amendments to the Transport Act. There will be an amendment to the Dominion Elections Act to provide for the exercise of the franchise by members of the armed forces. There will be

an amendment to the Civil Service Superannuation Act. There will also be any measures to supplement the existing rehabilitation programme, including war service gratuities and an amendment to the Veterans' Land Act. There will be amendments to the Naval Service Act, and possible amendments to the criminal code. There will also be such legislation as may result from reports of committees.
*^s indicated in the speech from the throne it is anticipated that there will be measures respecting health insurance and contributory old age pensions. In some particulars this legislation will depend upon the degree to which agreement can be reached with the provinces. Should the proposed treaty with China, which I mentioned on Monday last, be concluded before the end of the session, there wiH be a measure to amend the Chinese Immigration Act. There is alwnys the possibility that some situations may arise while parliament is still in session which will require the bringing in of additional legislation. I would not wish the government to be bound verbatim, et literatim by the statement I have just made, but I have tried to indicate to the house as fully as possible the legislation which, so far as I can see, at the moment it is proposed to have introduced at this session.


Gordon Graydon: May I make one suggestion to the Prime Minister with respect to the legislative programme? I think the house is cognizant of the amount of legislation yet to be dealt with in addition to war measures of a financial character. Perhaps the Prime Minister would be good enough to hold a conference with the government leader in the other house with the idea of having initiated in the other house such of the legislation he has mentioned as may be so dealt with. With that arrangement and with the help of committees some of the burden of legislating which falls upon this house might be diverted to the other house and we would thus have a somewhat better balance as between both houses.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: May I say to my hon. friend that I have had several conferences with the leader of the government in the Senate and he himself has brought forward the very question my hon. friend has just raised. The difficulty is that at a time of war most of the legislation is in the form of measures financial in character and most of them of necessity must be introduced in the Commons in the first instance. I mentioned an amendment to the Dominion Elections Act to provide for the exercise of the franchise by members of the armed forces. At first glance

Prime Ministers' Conference
this might seem to be legislation that might be initiated in the Senate, but hon. members will realize that it pertains to representation in the Commons and for that reason the measure could not very well be taken up there in the first instance.
The leader of the government in the Senate has in mind asking the members of that house to consider in committee some phases or aspects of the bills that will be before the Commons so that when these measures do reach the Senate the members of that honourable body will have more or less covered the ground which might otherwise have to be covered in lengthy debate. In this way it may be possible to have consideration of some of the measures carried on more or less simultaneously in both houses. I assure my hon. friend that the government is desirous of having as much of the existing programme initiated in the Senate as may be advisable and possible, but the exceptional character of a war session is. something which lies beyond the control of both houses.



PRIME MINISTERS' CONFERENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. G. HANSELL (Macleod):: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Prime Minister a question based on the probability that he will be leaving shortly for the conference of prime ministers in Great Britain. I am sure that the entire house wishes him godspeed, a safe journey there, a profitable conference, and a safe return. While he is away no doubt he will be called upon to make exceedingly important pronouncements and perhaps commitments. My question is this. Has he considered the advisability of calling into conference before leaving for Great Britain the leaders of the various parties and groups in parliament in order that he may ascertain the attitude of the entire body of parliament upon the problems which will have to be dealt with at the conference?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, I assume that my hon. friend's question has reference to the groups in the parliament of Canada, and not to any groups in the parliament of the United Kingdom.


Ernest George Hansell: No; here.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I would reply to him that the government has responsibility, as he is aware, for whatever is done in the name of the government either in this house
or elsewhere, and having that responsibility the government has to be the judge of the best method of proceeding in these matters. I hope that I am familiar enough with the views of the members of all groups in this house to be able to express, I trust quite sincerely and intelligently, any point of view that it may be desirable to have expressed on their behalf, but I have not thought it would be necessary to have any meeting of the kind which my hon. friend has just mentioned before attempting to deal with the proceedings of the conference. What will be discussed at the conference-I should call it rather a meeting of the prime ministers of the nations of the British commonwealth because it is not to be a conference in the sense in which that term is generally used-will depend largely on the questions that may come up at the meetings. No doubt there will be many subjects discussed, some of which I am already aware of, and others which I shall not know about until I am present.
May I say to my hon. friend that I thank him very warmly for the good wishes he has extended to me, and I thank hon. members of the house for the kind manner in which they have received the hon. member's expression of those good wishes. I shall endeavour as best I can not to disappoint any hopes or expectations which hon. members may be kind enough to cherish, with respect to a consideration of the matters to be taken up in London.



CANADIAN ARMY

[Stage Direction]
PRESS REPORT AS TO FORMATION OF VOLUNTEER BRIGADE OF 6th DIVISION FOR OVERSEAS SERVICE
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. C. GREEN (Vancouver South):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Department of National Defence. A Canadian Press dispatch from Vancouver, published in Ottawa this morning, states that an attempt is being made to raise a volunteer brigade from the troops of the 6th division, which is composed largely of home defence troops, and that this brigade is to be sent to one of the fighting fronts. The Minister of National Defence (Mr. Ralston) is out of the city to-day, I understand, but I would ask that the house be given a statement in regard to this matter to-morrow.


Hon. C. G. POWER (Minister of National Defence for Air):: We will take the question as a notice, Mr. Speaker, and I will advise the Minister of National Defence.

War Appropriation-War Services



WAR APPROPRIATION BILL


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Friday, April 21, consideration in committee of a resolution to grant to His Majesty certain sums of money for the carrying out of measures consequent upon the existence of a state of war-Mr. Ilsley-Mr. Bradette in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
Departmental administration, $90,907.
Gordon Knapman Fraser: Will the Minister of National War Services make a general statement? We have no break-down before us.
Hon. L. R. LaFLECHE (Minister of National War Services): Mr. Chairman, on Friday last towards the end of the sitting I was giving information in reply to questions put to me regarding specific operations of the Department of National War Services. I would ask the indulgence of the committee in order that I may give some further information which I suggest will be found interesting to the house and the country at large.
The men and the women of the Canadian armed forces have not been forgotten in an' important matter, and by that I mean their continued education. From the very beginning of the war an educational movement was started, and that has increased as the years have gone by. I am satisfied that an excellent job is being done in that direction.


Gordon Graydon: Mr. Chairman, what the minister is trying to bring before the committee is a matter of great importance and of great moment, but I am unable to hear him because of the noise that is going on in the chamber. In order to help him, so that his voice will remain intact during the afternoon and evening sittings, I would ask you, Mr. Chairman, please to call the committee to order and see that some semblance of order is kept while the minister is making his statement.
Mr. LaFLECHE: Mr. Chairman, my voice being in, its present state I am truly indebted to the leader of the opposition. I have some notes, and while they are lengthy I do believe they are worthy of putting on the record so that they may be read by the citizens of Canada at large.
Educational services for all branches of the armed forces were initiated in 1939 by the Canadian Legion under the authority of the Departments of National Defence, now three departments. The intention at that time was

to make available adequate educational facilities of a constructive nature to occupy idle time, which does form a considerable part of military life at different intervals, and eventually during the pre-demobilization period. The services were designed with three objectives in mind: first, that service personnel might become more efficient fighting men; second, that interrupted or deferred studies resulting from service might be continued; and third, that service personnel might prepare themselves whilst in service for civil reestablishment.
As the work developed, practical courses were established to meet the purely voluntary demands of service personnel. Later, the needs of additional educational facilities as part of military training were recognized by the three armed services. As an example, it became necessary to teach mathematics and other necessary subjects for which adequate facilities were not available within the services.
Canadian Legion Educational Services, having become established and capable of providing the necessary facilities for educating armed personnel proceeded to fit men in this respect for their military duties. The next step was for the three armed services themselves to develop in service organizations a knowledge of how to coordinate and integrate the educational facilities available through the Canadian Legion. Accordingly, the navy made use of its existing directorate of education, the army established its directorate of education in 1943, and the air force appointed educational officers in 1942. As a result of the establishment of these educational controls within the three services, all educational requirements, both for inservice training and extra-service training, are now' initiated by these officers, and required services-text books, libraries, supplies and instructors-are supplied through and by the Canadian Legion.
Because of the wide variation in school standards across Canada and because of the many different types of textbooks used in the autonomous provincial Bystems, it was found necessary to prepare numerous sets of academic, technical and vocational courses, ranging from the subjects on the lower level of the elementary school to those of the senior matriculation level. The collaboration of the provincial departments of education, extension departments of the universities, the Canada and Newfoundland educational association and other educational authorities was obviously necessary and was obtained by the Canadian Legion through its committee on education. Through its collaboration, the services now provide an interprovincial

War Appropriation-War Services
bilingual school system for the personnel of the fighting forces in which each registered student may obtain regular school credit. The core of the system provides sixty-seven specially prepared courses set out in text books which can be used in both oral courses and correspondence courses. This list includes certain special courses prepared at the request of the service authorities to assist in the more rapid preparation of service personnel in becoming efficient members of the fighting forces. One example of the manner in which such special courses have assisted in the training of personnel is that of the pre-aircrew courses. When the Royal Canadian Air Force had exhausted the supply of young men with sufficient academic education to take advantage of flying training, the Canadian Legion Educational Services were requested to provide pre-aircrew courses to bring ground crew personnel up to the required standards. To date, 12,603 students have taken advantage of pre-aircrew English, 21,428 have studied pre-aircrew mathematics and 15,430 have studied pre-aircrew science. This has materially assisted the R.C.A.F. in maintaining a steady flow of aircrew.
It is a matter of note, I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that through these operations, through the activities of the Canadian Legion Educational Services, there has been brought about, for the first time so far as I know, a system of teaching, or a school system if you like, which is identical in the nine provinces of Canada. That has been possible only because of the very fine cooperation which the several provinces without exception have afforded this plan.
Total voluntary registrations for correspondence courses using these text booklets as at March 31, 1944, was 129,361. During the past tw'o years the total number of papers corrected has been 210,197. Many of the students are not interested in academic credit, but study in preparation for promotion within the services, and consequently courses are dropped when the immediate aim is achieved.


Mr. COLD WELL:: Has the minister any comparison between those two years, as to whether there has been a substantial increase over the preceding year, so that we can see if there has been a progressive increase in the value of these courses? I do not want to interrupt.
Mr. LaFLECHE: I had intended to speak of that later on in my comments. That comes really at the end of my remarks on this subject. I think I can satisfy the hon gentleman on that.
Despite this fact, some 58 per cent are classified at present as active students working to complete courses. When consideration is given to the difficulties under which service personnel have to study, this average appears to be extremely good. Courses most in demand are mathematics, which includes trigonometry and practical courses designed especially for the army and the air force; conversation Anglaise; pilotage and elementary navigation; and series of technical, vocational and agricultural courses. Requirements for class instruction are provided in each military district or command of the R.C.A.F. by regional committees of the Canadian Legion Education Services, under the chairmanship of outstanding educationalists who serve in a voluntary capacity.
The following are the chairmen at the moment of these several regional committees in Canada and Newfoundland: Dr. G. M. Shrum, University of British Columbia; Professor Donald Cameron, University of Alberta; Dr. J. S. Thomson, President of the University , of Saskatchewan; Dr. Sidney Smith, President . of the University of Manitoba; Dr. M. K. Inman, Director of Extension, University of Western Ontario; Dr. W. J. Dunlop, Director of Extension, University of Toronto; Mr. Robert Westwater, Inspector of Ottawa Schools; Dr. J. C. Bonar, of the Canadian Pacific Railways; Mr. Victor Dore, Superintendent of Education, province of Quebec; Dr. N. MacKenzie, President of the University of New Brunswick; Dr. Henry F. Munro, Superintendent of Education, province of Nova Scotia; Honourable J. W. Jones, Premier of the province of Prince Edward Island; Dr.
A. G. Hatcher, President of Memorial College, Newfoundland.
On these regional committees are representatives of the director of education of the three armed services, department of education, teachers' societies, local school boards, auxiliary service officers, the provincial departments of agriculture, fisheries, mines and forestry. They are responsible for all operations within their respective areas. As will be seen, the planning has been central, with provincial consent; whereas the operations are in a sense decentralized; their geographical designations may rightly be compared with the several military districts.


Thomas Miller Bell: Is there a central
advisory committee?
Mr. LaFLECHE: Yes. I am coming to that. Under this arrangement, from the time of inception until December 31, 1943, some 7,670 classes have been conducted with an

War Appropriation-War Services
enrolment of 196,849 men and women. Classes for in-service training are conducted entirely by the service authorities, but in many cases text booklets for such ordinarily are provided by Canadian Legion Educational Services, the only source really from which such textbooks can be had. Slightly over 275,000 text booklets have been supplied at the request of the three services. Many instructors for classes in extra-service studies give their services voluntarily. In cases where payment is required, local rates of remuneration prevail. Such rates vary, because of location and difficulty of subject, ranging from about S3 to $5 for class sessions of two hours. Instructors' fees for correspondence courses average around forty cents per paper which is marked, and the student is individually instructed in respect to errors. Personnel engaged in correspondence instruction are drawn from the ranks of professional correspondence instructors accredited by the provincial departments of education.
There are handicraft and art classes carried out by the Legion and the other auxiliary services. Classes are provided by regional committees at the request of the armed service as and when need arises. These classes embrace such fields of interest as handicrafts, arts, household science and pre-discharge classes leading to rehabilitation. Crafts and arts of special interest are: leather, wood and metal work, knitting and needlepoint, weaving, photography, sketching and painting. Handicraft and arts programmes were initiated about November, 1943, and interest in such courses developed rapidly. For example, during the four months following inception 30,863 English and French manuals were distributed and 2,174 individuals received instruction in Canadian Legion classes alone, not taking into account the classes operated by the other auxiliary services. I am sorry I have not the figures for the other auxiliary services, but I wish to point out that the Y.M.C.A. carries out handicraft and art classes at those stations where they operate as an auxiliary service. They are large.
To satisfy the increasing demand from service personnel for university classes the armed forces requested the Canadian Legion Educational Services to bring a full variety of courses to the attention of interested students. Bulletins which provide information relative to both English and French speaking universities have been prepared and are available to service personnel.
The three services have been giving consideration to pre-discharge training which will aid individuals in their civilian reestablishment, and at the same time provide constructive guidance during the period prior to
(Mr. LaFleche.]
demobilization. In cooperation with service representatives and representatives of the Department of Pensions and National Health, Canadian Legion educational services have provided vocational guidance manuals on some fifty gainful occupations, in addition to more comprehensive courses on the basic industries, namely, agriculture, mining, fishing and forestry.
To implement the whole educational programme requested by these sendees, Canadian Legion Educational Services have built up a large library service in Canada, Newfoundland and overseas with the following purposes in mind. I am told there are something like three hundred different textbooks. The purposes in mind are: (a) to supply prescribed and collateral readings in support of correspondence courses; (b) to provide reference texts on subjects in which oral classes have been arranged at the request of the services;
(c)	to assist the personnel to pursue studies in subjects for which correspondence courses have not as yet been provided; (d) to supply certain technical books specially useful for men in the navy, army and air force from lists approved by officers of the three branches of the service.
Reference books, both English and French, in 1942 and 1943 in Canada and Newfoundland total 71,324, being both cloth and paper bound and averaging in price about S2.50 each. Trades journals are sent out monthly to the camps in order to keep men in touch with their civil occupations, and such trade journals are provided without cost by the respective publishers.
There is a short university course for R.A.F. personnel at Bishop's university. As a result of the examples set by British universities in providing short university courses for Canadian personnel overseas, the western Quebec regional committee of the Canadian Legion sponsored a series of one-week courses at Bishop's university, Lennoxville. They were designed to provide air personnel from the Atlantic transport command particularly with information concerning Canadian affairs, and lectures and tours were provided.
So far I have been outlining the operations carried out by the Canadian Legion Educational Services in Canada and Newfoundland. May I now say something about what is being done overseas? The requirements overseas closely parallel the work performed in Canada, and is under the direction of a committee of outstanding British educationalists, the chairman of which is Sir Frederick Clarke. On this committee are also the directors of education of the three services, in addition to the Canadian Legion Educational Services overseas directors. Up to December 1943 some

TFar Appropriation-War Services
33,739 service personnel have registered for correspondence courses, and 25,407 directed reading requests were attended to.
In one month 3,106 classes were conducted with an approximate attendance of 71,059. The same text booklet or booklets and library facilities are available to Canadian personnel overseas and in any theatre of war in which our personnel serves. For instance, I am very happy to say classes were actually conducted during operations in Sicily and are being provided for at the present time in Italy.
We also do whatever we can for prisoners of war. All Canadian Legion Educational Services courses, all Canadian university courses, and whatever special courses and educational material are requested by next-of-kin, are available to Canadian prisoners of war in Germany and enemy occupied territory. Arrangements have been made through the International Red Cross Society in Geneva and the Canadian Red Cross Society to distribute such material. Examinations for all these courses are forwarded to the university of London, England, for marking, and the credits granted by that university are accepted by departments of education and universities in Canada and Newfoundland. To date some 37,787 text booklets and 662 University texts, together with 400 Canadian university correspondence courses, have been dispatched to Geneva. Some 35,981 text booklets, and library books for special reference numbering 527, have been sent to individual prisoners of war upon direct request. Some indication of the interest and value may be gained from the fact that of a total of 4,686 men in one German prisoners of war camp in October, 1943, some 2,373 attended school classes. Proof of receipt of material and appreciation of the services are received from time to time in cards and letters from the recipients and from senior Canadian and R.A.F. officers.
Now I come to the committee on education. The whole programme is supervised and co-ordinated by the national committee on education of the Canadian Legion war sei'vices, in conjunction with its regional committees in Canada, Newfoundland and overseas, under the chairmanship of Lieutenant-Colonel the Honourable Wilfrid Bovey, this committee is composed of representatives of the Canadian association of adult education, the Canadian and Newfoundland educational association, the Department of Pensions and National Health, the directors of education of the three armed services, together with two representatives of the Canadian Legion. The value of voluntary services provided by numerous outstanding men and women in Canadian and British educational fields cannot 100-144
be estimated in monetary terms. These public-spirited citizens, Mr. Chairman, I believe deserve the gratitude of all.
I have here a list of text booklets, totalling 67. I shall not venture to read them into the record, but this list is available-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Put them on Hansard.
Mr. LaFLECHE: With the permission of the committee I should like to place the list on Hansard without reading it.


The CHAIRMAN:: With the unanimous consent of the committee.
Mr. LaFLECHE: The list is as follows:
List of Text Booklets
Aircraft Recognition Biology C Bookkeeping B Chemistry C Diesel Engineering Elem. liar. Engineering Elem. Read., Writ., Spell.
English B
Francais Degre Elem. French B General Science A General Science C Intro. English Intro. General Science Intro. Social Studies Latin B
Lecture Ecrit. et Epell.
Mathematics A Mathematics C Music
Pilotage & Navigation Practical Electricity Pre-airerew English Pre-aircrew Science Sheet Metal Work Shorthand B Social Studies B Soils & Field Crops German for Service Men
What's That Plane Woodcutter's Handbook
Icelandic for Soldiers Sr. Metric. Physics
Naval Educ. Test I & II
Auto Engineering Bookkeeping A Business Arithmetic Conversation Auglaise Elem. Arithmetic Elem. Navigation English A English C French A French C General Science B Horticulture Intro. French Intro. Mathematics Latin A Latin C
Livestock & Dairy Mathematics B Mechanical Drawing Physics C Poultry Raising Practical Trigonometry Pre-aircrew Mathematics Principles of Radio Shorthand A Social Studies A Social Studies C Business of Farming French for Service Men
Instructor's Manual Maths, for Soldiers Sr. Matric. English Sr. Matric. Maths.
Hon. members might be interested in the size of the staff required, and I have the figures as of March 31, 1944. At that time there were engaged in administrative work at headquarters 48 full-time employees. Civilian assistants, regional secretaries, clerks and stenographers, librarians and so on in the field, also full-time employees, numbered 88. Engaged in the correction of correspondence course papers were 60 part-time employees. Service personnel instructing in the field numbered 246. The number of those serving voluntarily on the national committees, the regional committees, as honorary librarians,

22S8

War Appropriation-War Services
lecturers, teachers, film specialists, operators, translators, authors and artists is estimated to be in the neighbourhood of 350. Therefore as of that date we had approximately 136 full-time employees and 906 others, both service and civilian, full-time and part-time, including those who gave their services without charge.
In regard to operations and analysis as to costs, the basis for any comparison as to increase or otherwise, at present the operations show an increase over those indicated in the six months' period ending December 31, 1943. The present ratio of expenses for headquarters administration to expenses relative to teaching is indicated by analysis of the expenditure for the six months' period ending December 31, 1943. During the period July 1, 1943, to the end of that calendar year, a total expenditure of $372,257.04 was required for the provision of educational services in Canada. Of this amount the sum of $30,169.38 was spent on headquarters administration salaries, or a percentage ratio of 8.1. The total cost of headquarters administration, including travel, rentals, furnishings and equipment, was only $37,447.22, or ten per cent of the total expenditure. The amount devoted to the provision of actual educational training and required materials, together with local regional administration, was in the sum of $311,165.93, or 83.6 per cent of the gross expenditure for the period. The balance of $23,643.89 was expended on special projects such as material for prisoners of war, preparation of material for pre-discharge training, and short courses, and represents 6.4 per cent of the total expenditure. From the above analysis it will be seen that a very modest ratio of administrative expenses obtains, and that the expenditures for actual educational purposes required the volume of the total budget. Moreover, the amount of voluntary technical, academic and advisory assistance provided by unselfish, public spirited educationists throughout Canada and Newfoundland, and I might add Great Britain, makes the total operation a most economical as well as a most efficient enterprise.
I have figures as to cost. Expenditures in Canada from the inception in October, 1939, to December 31, 1943, total $1,267,021.74. Expenditures overseas for the same period total $637,677.04.


Major James William Coldwell: Do I understand that the total expenditure since the war broke out is less than $3,000,000?
Mr. LaFLECHE: It is just under $2,000,000, both for overseas and in Canada.


Major James William Coldwell: Could the minister tell me the total budget for the services both in Canada and abroad for the current year?
Mr. LaFLECHE: You mean the year ending March 31, 1944?


Major James William Coldwell: Whenever the current fiscal year ends.
Mr. LaFLECHE:	I must deal in fiscal
years, whereas of course the educational year ends roughly in June; we have had some little difficulty in that regard. The figures requested are, for Canada and Newfoundland, $922,000 for the year, and overseas $240,000.


Major James William Coldwell: Does the $922,000 include
overseas?
Mr. LaFLECHE: No, I have given them separately. Those would total $1,162,000. It is apparent that in this respect we are on the increase, and it would seem that that is only natural. Experiences of the past have permitted those carrying out these operations to perfect their systems. It has also become a matter of intimate knowledge of all members of our forces that these services are at their disposal. And they-as we, I presume-hope that this war will end in the not too distant future. It is encouraging to note that the members of our armed forces take education seriously.


Major James William Coldwell: For the amount of money expended, we have been told a remarkable story. I am wondering if sufficient money has been expended to make this the kind of service it ought to be. When we hear of $1,100,000 as the total expenditure for the kind of services the minister has outlined for the armed services in Canada and overseas, and for prisoners of war-and I regard that as a very important service-we must realize that relatively it is a very small sum. I am thinking of a' city of perhaps 50,000 or 60,000 inhabitants where the expenditures for public and high schools-and we might include the separate schools, too-would approach this figure. I do not know how the amount of service can be given for the money the minister has mentioned. I believe the committee would be warranted in urging that the minister discuss this matter with the national committee, to see if they are obtaining adequate sums for this important auxiliary service. I know of no service more important than the one we are now discussing.
We must remember that in this time of war we have taken from their normal way of life hundreds of thousands of young men and women who might otherwise have been completing their education. We owe it to those

War Appropriation-War Services
young people to see that the very best possible educational facilities are provided for them while they are in the armed forces. I feel this way about it, too, that if our democracy is to survive, those younger people who are serving in the armed forces and others who are growing up must be given every opportunity to appraise policies, to understand the public, social and economic environments in which we live, and be able to use democracy as it ought to be used. For, after all, in my opinion we have never had democracy. True, it was defined as government of the people, for the people and by the people; but in most of the spheres of life in which people have to move they find they are governed by selfconstituted and autocratic controllers who are anything but democratic, and who do not allow the people to exercise any degree of democracy.
My real thought is that those of us who are interested in this matter should express our appreciation of the tremendous voluntary effort undertaken, and the manner in which it has been worked out by Colonel Bovey and by the Canadian Legion. I dp not think a finer piece of work has been undertaken than the educational service for the armed forces. But in my view it has not gone far enough. 1 believe we could have spent many times the amount we have spent in this field.
I rise this afternoon, as a former teacher and one interested in education, to urge upon the committee that they see to it that this great service is in no way starved, but on the contrary is extended, fostered and financed to the very best of our ability.
I was going to ask the minister one or two questions. Is any supervision given to the amount of money asked for by the legion? Is the government advised or is the legion advised, by any committee other than those about which we have heard this afternoon? To be precise, is there a citizens' advisory committee which has any say as to the allocation of expenditures?
Mr. LaFLECHE: Perhaps I might be permitted to give a somewhat lengthy reply. It would seem to me that at this point I should explain to the committee just how all this originates, and the various steps through which proposals pass. In educational services, as in the establishment of canteens or anything else for the comfort of our fighting personnel, the requisitions arise in the defence department concerned. It may be the navy, the army or the air force. Each of the defence departments has a director of education, and it is he who says that such-and-such facilities shall be made available, and that so many people will probably wish to attend classes in 100-1441
this or that camp. That comes to my department as a proposition initiated by the defence department involved, and carrying the approval of that department. In effect it is a demand upon me to see that certain things are carried out.
While I am now speaking about educational services, the same would apply to the establishment of a hostel, a canteen, or any other service for the troops. The requisition then goes to the national war services fund advisory board, a committee composed very largely of sound, careful business men-and, of course, some women.


Thomas Miller Bell: Would the minister
give the names?
Mr. LaFLECHE:	I have the entire list
here.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: I suggest it be placed on the record.


Thomas Miller Bell: Who is the chairman?
Mr. LaFLECHE:	Mr. C. L. Burton of
Toronto is the chairman, and the members are:
Mr. Henry W. Binning, Annapolis Royal.
Mr. Wallace R. Campbell, Windsor.
Mr. J. Arthur D'Aoust, Ottawa.
Mr. John Caswell Davis, Winnipeg.
Mr. Leon T. des Rivieres, Quebec.
Mr. T. S. Dixon, Vancouver.
Mr. Walter S. Grant, Charlottetown.
Mr. J. J. Leddy, Saskatoon.
Brigadier General C. H. Maclaren, Ottawa.
Mr. John W. McConnell, Montreal.
Madame A. J. Major, Ottawa.
Mr. F. K. Morrow, Toronto.
Mr. James Y. Murdoch, Toronto.
Mr. Gordon F. Perry, Toronto.
Mrs. Louise M. Vroom, Rothesay, King's county, N.B.
Mrs. Edgar Hardy Ottawa.
Mr. W. T. Henry, Edmonton.
Then there is an overseas committee or subcommittee, the chairman of which is Sir Edward Peacock, and the members:
Mr. S. Kilpatrick, London, England.
Sir Hardman Lever, London, England.
Mr. E. B. Mclnerney, London, England.
Mr. W. Garfield Weston, M.P., London, England. m


Mr. GILLIS:: For example, if the Canadian Legion war services educational committee were desirous of starting a new project or expanding its work, would it be necessary to call all the members of that committee in order to get the money or appropriation?
Mr. LaFLECHE: The proposition would not originate in that fashion; it must originate in the department of national defence concerned. None of the auxiliary services initiate any particular proposal, nor does my department. The three departments of national

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defence, in the interests of their personnel, decide, I assume after due deliberation, that it is necessary to do this or to do that. It is then the work of national war services to do it. The proposal then follows the procedure I had begun to outline. I assume it is the desire of the committee that I continue.
The proposal then goes to the national war services funds advisory board, which is composed of the ladies and gentlemen I have just mentioned. Representatives of the auxiliary services of the department of national defence concerned appear before the board and full explanations are given. The board satisfy themselves, not that the proposal is good or bad but that it is going to be carried out economically. Its duty is to advise the Minister of National War Services, who then acts and it is his responsibility from then on.
I should like to say a word about the national war services funds advisory board and pay a tribute to the ladies and gentlemen who serve on that board. Their duties have been quite onerous, and they have been most assiduous and careful in their work. I assume that they feel that they are there for the purpose of seeing that the taxpayers' money is not wasted. From the beginning I have appreciated at all times the fruits of their labour. I have appreciated their recommendations. The Minister of National War Services is not bound to accept their recommendations, but as in all cases they would have gone to the trouble of considering the merits of the proposal in detail the information they obtain is certainly worthy of the most serious consideration.
In connection with education services I am glad to say that in not one case have I reduced the recommendation as to the budget by one cent. On some occasions, the matter having been carefully discussed with the Legion representatives and the national defence representatives, they have recommended that certain reductions be made. I would then discuss the matter with the Legion representatives or sometimes with the Department of National Defence representatives, and I can say that the Legion has never been held up because of lack of funds. So far as I am concerned they will not be held up by a lack of funds in carrying out the projects of the department of national defence concerned, which have been passed by the national war services funds advisory board and by the officials of my department. However, there is great value in being careful in expending public money. I think we all agree as to that.
I am in a position to say that so far as I am concerned no moneys have been wasted.

I am satisfied that every dollar has been put to good use. I am satisfied that those concerned are careful in their operations. Rarely has my attention been drawn to cases where sufficient care seems not to have been taken. I have experienced no trouble because of suspicions or anything of that nature; everything has been perfectly clear and aboveboard. As far as I know I can assure my hon. friend that he need have no fear. I feel sure the national war services funds advisory board is aware of the importance of educational services. This does not mean that when the board meets to discuss the details of the different budgets there is not serious discussion. I would not wish it to be otherwise. So far as I can humanly do so, I shall see that the members of the armed forces are provided with courses and are able to carry on their education to their hearts' content, to their own benefit as well as to the benefit of Canada.


Major James William Coldwell: I was trying to follow out a series of questions which I had in mind. I do not think anyone will say that any of the money appropriated has been wasted. We have had a vigorous statement this afternoon by the minister that there has been no waste. The marvel to me is how this sendee could have been undertaken for the amount of money that has been appropriated.
While I agree that we owe thanks to the ladies and gentlemen who have acted on the advisory and other committees, I feel that in regard to education quite often the wrong people exercise control over expenditures. I think it is a mistake to have in a position where they can void education expenditure people who do not appreciate the necessity for education in this period in which we are living. Mention was made of Mr. Burton, general manager of Robert Simpson Company Limited. With all his attributes I do not think Mr. Burton is a gentleman who should have any say with regard to educational expenditure. I say that because of his own statement. I hold in my hand a report of an interview which he gave to Wellington Jeffers of the Globe and Mail on December 11, 1943. After discussing immigration he went on to discuss education. This is what the gentleman said:
There is a growing suspicion, 'however, that many young people would have a greater ambition to succeed in whatever business or vocation they follow if they started to earn earlier. This fully recognizes every cultural claim for giving Canadians a good^ education, but also says that that great education, experience, is not allowed to have its influence early enough when minds and character and habits are most impressionable and have greatest influence on later life.

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I started work at fourteen years. I think that is the best age for many children to commence work. If they are in earnest about going back to school later, most of them nowadays can find a way to do it.
In my work in the Big Brother Movement and as chairman of the Industrial School Advisory Board, I have often found it true that many boys would be better off, after fourteep years of age, to be at work than in school. Probably the fact that many boys and girls over fourteen years of age have for many years been denied the opportunity to get into work when they desired to do so has been much to the disadvantage of the social fabric of the country. Too few recognize the strain involved in the fact that most families in Canada are trying to live on a $2,000 basis with a $1,500 income.
In other words, if you put the children to work earlier, the parents can get something out of them to help meet the family budget.
A large increase in juvenile delinquency has resulted. This will not be cured by theorists, by psychologists, by social welfare workers nor by education, experts if the economic strain is forgotten. A great deal of the strain would be saved if children were allowed to take full-time jobs at fourteen years of age and then encouraged later to continue studying either at school or on their own volition.
I have read that because I have received from boys who are taking some of these courses indications that there have been delays in getting the courses, the papers and so forth, and delay's in getting the results. From the figures placed before us this afternoon I believe that that is due to an, insufficiency of facilities, too small a staff, inadequate funds, too much perhaps of voluntary work, although we all appreciate what has been done in that way; nevertheless a person who undertakes a job voluntarily very' often finds other things intervening from time to time which are his livelihood and must come first, and in that way delays may occur. I would point this out to the committee, that we are appropriating only one million dollars for this tremendously important service to which other countries are contributing as much as twenty per cent, not of their total war expenditures, but of their total expenditures on auxiliary services. By comparison our one million dollars, or one five-thousandth of the amount of money we are spending for the war, is an exceedingly small amount for this great educational service. I think that the people who are directing this service, or are responsible in any way or have any say as to the appropriation and the amount of service that shall be given ought to be people who believe in education, who do not believe, as this gentleman does, that a child of fourteen ought to be turned on to the labour market. In every progressive country in the world to-day an attempt is being made to prolong the full-time school age to
sixteen. The age of fiften has already' been adopted by many countries, and sixteen is the objective.
I think we should be careful not to allow any of our educational services to be interfered with by people who do not believe in education beyond the age of fourteen, and this gentleman evidently does not. I recognize the fact that he is a great business man and may be doing an excellent job in some other respects in connection with the auxiliary services, but I question whether anyone holding his views on education ought to be in a position where he can in any way interfere with the expenditures, which of course mean either expansion or curtailment of educational facilities. I urge upon the minister and the house that they see to it that we spend much more than we are now spending on our educational services for the army, the navy and the air force and for prisoners of war. I hope that too'will go for the entire country.
I was reading only to-day the bulletins which no doubt other members have received because evidently they are sent out from Washington on a list obtained from parliament. They are published by the Soviet Union; and I have noted over the past four or five months the tremendous expansion they are undertaking in their educational facilities, even during the war. Twenty per cent of their budget for civil projects this year is for the expansion of education in Russia. We have to keep on our toes if we are to build up the kind of Canada that most of us hope to see. We may differ as to the methods, but I believe every member of the house wants to see a better Canada than we have at the present time. I think we will all agree, no matter what our views may be as to methods, that a better Canada must be based on a sound and progressive educational policy.
Mr. LaFLECHE: Mr. Chairman, I have listened very carefully to the views which have been expressed by the hon. member. I wish to assure him and the house and the public and members of the armed forces that all the demands made by the departments of national defence for educational services have been met. I wish to make it clear beyond peradventure that it is the departments of national defence which set the pace in this matter. The Canadian Legion Educational Services do not of themselves initiate any particular programme. They carry out what is demanded of them by national defence working through my department.
Mr. Burton, a distinguished gentleman, who is chairman of the national war services advisory board, is fully aware of the fact that when he deals with a budget, as it is

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called in these circles, he is dealing with requests made by the departments of national defence, and his only motive is to see that their demands are satisfied without extravagance and with due regard for economy. It has been my privilege to meet Mr. Burton only since I have had the honour to be the head of National War Services, but since then I have seen him on a number of occasions and I have been with him and with the ladies and gentlemen of his committee when they were going over the details of these budgets. I have seen them at work on a number of occasions, and I have not discovered in Mr. Burton, in the fairly large number of contacts I have had with him in discussing these and similar proposals, the slightest trace of narrow-mindedness, whether it be in education or in anything else.
I am not of course in a position to interpret the words which are attributed to Mr. Burton through the source mentioned by the hon. gentleman. I do recall from what I heard read that Mr. Burton would have some boys go to work earlier, but he added that they should resume their studies later. He may have had some particular things in his mind when he said that. I judge Mr. Burton from his value as chairman of the advisory board, through his value to my department and his value to Canada. It is needless, I think, for me to say much about his many great acts of charity and public service. Whatever his real views may be upon education, I can assure hon. members that the members of the forces have not suffered; on the contrary, countless numbers have very greatly benefited through the efforts and the contributions in kind and in money made by Mr. Burton.
Speaking so of him, I think that in a general way my remarks about this distinguished gentleman can be applied generally to the other members of that committee.
I say again that I shall review carefully the suggestions and the representations made this afternoon, that Canada may continue to be the best democratic nation on the face of the earth, where true democracy flourishes, in my opinion, better than in any other nation.


Mr. MacXICOL:: Has the department or the Canadian Legion Educational Services considered giving to what may be called their students, who are the soldiers who have now been in the army from one to four years, and in attendance at their schools, some form of certificate or diploma which will assist them when they come to make application after the war for positions in business or elsewhere? I believe it would help them materially if they could show evidence of having attended courses given by the Canadian Legion Educational Services. A young man who has spent perhaps

five years in the army and makes application for a position in civil life may be more or less handicapped in competition with a young man who has attended business college or some other school, unless he is able to give evidence of having been trained vocationally during the years he was in the army.
I did not hear what the minister said about educational facilities for Canadians in war prisoner camps. I gathered that something was mentioned by him, and I should like a further explanation in that regard if he is in a position to give it. The Germans themselves, being so fond of education, surely would have no objection to the provision of educational facilities for our young men who are now prisoners of war.
I was sorry to hear the leader of the Cooperative Commonwealth party say what he did about Mr. Charles Burton.


Major James William Coldwell: It is true. He said it himself.


Clarence Gillis: You have his own words.


John Ritchie MacNicol: You have stated what he is reported to have said. Now I am going to say what I want to say.


Major James William Coldwell: I gave his own words.


Mr. STIRLING:: You distorted it.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Mr, Burton at the moment
is gravely ill.


Major James William Coldwell: I did not know that.


John Ritchie MacNicol: He has devoted a lifetime of keen application to the building up of this country. He began at fourteen years of age; he was trained in the school of hard knocks. In that school he learned how to develop this country. For a considerable time he has been the head of a great company, the Robert Simpson company, employing, I suppose, from ten to fifteen thousand people. I am always ready to take off my hat and give the sincerest feeling of my heart to the man who provides employment. I know many Robert Simpson company employees, and I have never heard one of them speak other than highly of the management of the Simpson company. I am not very well acquainted with Mr. Burton, but in my business days I came in contact with his work, and I am sure that anyone who knows the facts will admit that his association with the Toronto Industrial commission and his direction of that organization for quite a number of years has resulted in the establishment in Toronto of between a hundred and two hundred and fifty small companies and the provision of considerable employment. I will never sit quiet and listen

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to censure of a man who gives employment. Men who give jobs to people in large numbers-


Major James William Coldwell: One day a week.


John Ritchie MacNicol: *-deserve commendation instead of censure. I have known, too, of Mr. Burton's activities in the Big Brother movement ; they have been legion and have resulted in rich returns to society. I do not know what our great city would have done but for this movement and many others of a helpful kind with which Mr. Burton has been associated. He needs no defence from me, and 1 do not know him well enough to engage in such a defence in detail; but I do not like to see any of these men who do things, who make things, who give employment in a big way, as Mr. Burton has done, censured for what they have done.


Major James William Coldwell: I did not censure them for what they had done.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Particularly when they
started to work as young as the age of fourteen.


Major James William Coldwell: And want everybody
else to start at fourteen.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I like to see a young
fellow start at an early age, right in the school of hard knocks, if necessary, learning things with which he can not only advance himself but elevate along with himself a multitude of others.
I have known Mr. Burton to be associated with many good1 works. I know he is most charitable; he gives freely, and what he gives he has made during his lifetime, in a career which began on the lowest rung of the ladder. There is not a man or woman in this chamber who had a more humble beginning than Mr. Charles Burton had, and I know of no one in the House of Commons who has done more for his family and relations, and not only for them, but for a multitude of others, than Mr. Burton has done. I am very sorry that his name has been belittlingly dragged into the story of the educational work which has been so ably recounted by the minister.
May I add, too, that I admire the way in which the minister has accustomed himself to speak English fluently. His achievement is somewhat of a reflection upon those of us who cannot speak his language with equal fluency. I like the way he set out his record of achievement in his department. It is a great achievement as the hon. member for Rose-town-Biggar observed, and I congratulate the minister upon it, with the small amount of money at his disposal.
I repeat that I hope some way will be found of giving recognition to these young soldier students. It might be done by means of a certificate which could be called the certificate of the Canadian Legion Educational Services, or of the national war services educational committee, or something of the kind. It could be used to support the soldier's application after the war when he finds himself in competition with others who may be able to cite a long list of the schools or other edu-tional institutions which they have attended. Will the young applicant be able to put in his application:
I herewith enclose copy of certificate awarded to me by the Canadian Legion Educational Services or by the National War Services Department for the use of my time in the evenings and in my spare time while serving my king and country during the late war?
Mr. LaFLECHE:	I am indeed pleased to
assure my distinguished and esteemed friend the hon. member for Davenport that there is already in effect a system whereby students will leceive certificates of attainment as they leave the army. I take it that is precisely what my hon. friend had in mind. In regard to prisoners of war I did place on Hansard a while ago something of which this is the gist: All Canadian Legion educational services courses, all Canadian university courses, and whatever special courses and educational material are requested by next-of-kin are available to Canadian prisoners of war in Germany and enemy occupied territory.
That applies to all prisoners of war except those in Japan. We know that all prisoners of war held by the Japanese must be considered to be suffering more than our men held in prison camps by others of the axis powers. I am sorry I have to make that exception with regard to Japan, but otherwise the statement is correct.


Howard Charles Green: The minister stated that
the request for these courses must come from one of the three defence departments; that is, either the navy, the army or the air force. I should like to know to what extent it is possible for a man in hospital to take advantage of these courses, both the educational courses, using the word in the ordinary sense, and the handicraft and art courses. I do hope that there is some way by which these men can get all these courses. My understanding is that at the present time that is not the case, and yet these men have little else to do. They are in hospital where practically all their time could be devoted to taking those courses. Not only would it benefit them mentally but it would also be of great aid to their health. Could the minister tell the committee what

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the position is with regard to the men in the various hospitals not only in Canada but also in the Mediterranean and Great Britain?
Mr. LaFLECHE:	The hon. member is quite
correct in sta+ing that I said all these proposals must originate with one of the defence forces, but the courses he has mentioned are available at this moment to the men whom he mentioned. It may be that the officer commanding the hospital the hon. member had in mind has not yet asked the district educational officer to see that the courses are made available to the patients; but if he will inquire again from the district educational officer he will see that these courses are available to him, as they are to those overseas.


Howard Charles Green: To what extent are they
being given in the large pensions and national health hospitals, for example, the Christie Street hospital in Toronto, the Shaughnessy hospital in Vancouver, and the other large pensions and national health hospitals in Canada?
Mr. LaFLECHE:	I think my hon. friend
has in mind the cases where the civilian officer of the Canadian Legion calls and makes the necessary arrangements for cases such as that.


Howard Charles Green: No. What I am interested
in is to what extent the men who are in these large hospitals are able to take the educational courses. How many of them are taking the courses? I believe if the minister checks that he will find there is a field there for a great extension of this educational work. It may be possible for the men to get it under the present regulations, but I doubt very much whether they are getting it to any large extent.
Mr. LaFLECHE: I am afraid I must say I shall have to look it up. I have forgotten the figures of how many men are taking it, how many patients in any given hospital out of the total number of hospitals are taking the classes. I gave the total figures and they go away up; however, I shall see that my departmental officers make a check. Most assuredly those courses that have been made available should be brought to the attention of those eligible several times.


Howard Charles Green: The number of men in those hospitals is increasing all the time. The wounded men are coming home from overseas and it is likely the number will increase as time goes on. It may well be that that field will be larger than the field in the actual fighting services.
Mr. LaFLECHE: Ultimately, yes.


Howard Charles Green: I would ask the minister to check up on that situation and let us know, perhaps after the six o'clock adjournment, what the situation is at the present time.
(Mr. dreen.]
Mr. LaFLECHE: I shall do my best to get the figures but I cannot promise to have them ready for to-night. I shall, however, give them to the committee. I wish to assure the hon. member that the men he has in mind are eligible for these courses, and I shall check it up to see that the proper people are apprised of the fact that a number of these men either do not seem to be aware of it or perhaps are not intent upon taking the courses.


Mr. NOSEWORTHY:: I should like the matter of the advisory committee to be cleared up a little more. As I understand the situation, any private of the armed forces may make application for educational services and that application goes through the minister's department. Does the advisor committee decide whether this service shall be given, or does it decide the amount of money that shall be spent in these particular services, or does it simply make a recommendation regarding the amount of money that shall be spent, which, as I understand, the minister has always approved? I wish to find out what the position is.
Mr. LaFLECHE:	The third supposition
is correct. The advisory board has power to make recommendations to the Minister of National War Services; and I may say again to the hon. member that on no occasions have I cut down their recommendation in regard to educational services. Perhaps on the contrary I may say that I have at all times made it quite clear that I favour granting educational facilities to our boys and girls in uniform.


Joseph William Noseworthy: The minister has
said that on no occasion has he reduced the amount recommended. Would he make the same statement in regard to increasing the amount?
Mr. LaFLECHE: I put it this way: I have always argued or made it clear that I was in favour of granting educational facilities to the full extent desired by the Department of National Defence concerned. It might be said, therefore, that I have increased the amounts recommended, but only by my never-failing readiness to say that I believed in education, which has had the effect of preventing decreases whereas I have not as yet increased an amount recommended.


Joseph William Noseworthy: Is it a widespread practice to have the amounts voted by parliament to be spent by departments of government pass under review by a committee of business men before they are spent? Just how widespread is that practice within the minister's department, or within other departments?

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Mr. LaFLECHE: I think the answer is that all expenditures by all departments should and do receive very careful scrutiny. Sometimes that scrutiny is by what are termed permanent civil servants; in other cases it is by temporary civil servants, and in others, as in the case of the board we have been discussing, by those who are serving Canada in the class of dollar a year men and women, though they do not receive the dollar. They serve an excellent purpose in scrutinizing the proposed activities, or rather the proposals made to carry out the demands of the Department of National Defence. In that way comparatively large expenditures may be scrutinized by those who are not full-time empl yees of any department.


Joseph William Noseworthy: Is this, to the minister's knowledge, the only instance in which the expenditure of money voted by parliament for a specific purpose is largely determined by committees of business men?
Mr. LaFLECHE: That is a question I had not anticipated, but I think we can place what is done by the national war services funds advisory board on about the same basis as what is done by the various associations which receive grants from the government. I need not name any particular- association, but to numbers of them, particularly in the past, this house voted money to permit certain activities to be carried on. The amounts so voted were, I am perfectly certain, decided after consultation with ladies and gentlemen who had given careful thought to the extent of the activities in question. I think basically that case is about as good a parallel to the present instance as one could find. I would have to look up the situation in regard to other departments.


Joseph William Noseworthy: Are there any other instances in the minister's department?
Mr. LaFLECHE: No; that is the only one.


Thomas Miller Bell: Then where does the responsibility of parliament come in?
Mr. LaFLECHE: I take the responsibility. I do not have to act upon the recommendations of the committee.


Major James William Coldwell: I realize that, but surely an extra-parliamentary committee supervising a government expenditure is something entirely new for a democratic parliament such as ours. It seems to me that we are witnessing something creeping into our parliamentary procedure which we as members of parliament ought to resist. If this is permitted to go on, by and by we may see all kinds of committees of business men coming along after parliament has appropriated the sums of money and de-100-145
ciding how and where that money shall be spent. Perhaps the minister can justify this, though I cannot; nevertheless I think the principle is bad and wrong, and one which this house should condemn.
Mr. LaFLECHE: The committee is properly named; it is an advisory committee which has been in existence for nearly four years. As I tried to explain some time ago, the committee does not initiate projects; it does not say where the money shall be spent. It merely recommends that so much money, or a maximum of so much, could be devoted to a certain purpose to good advantage, and goes into the matter in detail.


Major James William Coldwell: That is what parliament does when it adopts the estimates. That is the business of parliament, not the business of any advisory board composed of private citizens.
Mr. LaFLECHE: For the moment at least my hon. friend is doing very much the same thing in regard to these estimates, though perhaps it is done in a somewhat different way. Representatives of the several auxiliary services, including the Canadian Legion, the Salvation Army and so forth, sit around a table with the committee and discuss the matter. They say, "National defence wants to do this thing. How do you intend to do it; what will it cost and why?" These matters must be gone into in great detail, by the committee in question and by my department. Officials of my department go over the details of the proposed expenditures in regard to these various projects. Thus we have the advantage of the constructive suggestions of these bright, mature men and women, in addition to what we have in mind ourselves. I can assure hon. members that this committee has done very well by Canada and by the. members of the armed forces. I see in this procedure very great advantage to all concerned.


Mr. CHURCH:: I have had a long connection with this charity business. At the present time education and other kinds of auxiliary work are being added which are really entirely outside the charities act. Where do we stand on this matter at the present time? The present Minister of National Defence for Air, who was then Minister of Pensions and National Health, on September 9,	1939,
shortly after war was declared, introduced and put through the house in about half an hour what is known as the charities act to set up a regulatory body over all the auxiliary services which were brought into being by the war. What was the result? These services had to apply to the minister for authority to carry on, and they had to be listed with his department.



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The matter was discussed in this house on July 13 last, when the attendance was very small because a dinner was being held in connection with the meeting of the empire parliamentary association; but in the second year of the war complaints were made, and as a result the Minister of National Defence decided to send the late Doctor Manion to England as a commissioner to investigate and report upon the various bodies that had qualified under the act, including the Canadian Legion, the Knights of Columbus, the Salvation Army, the Y.M.C.A., the Y.W.C.A., the Navy League and some others, to see if there was overlapping.	Doctor Manion made a
report, which I believe showed considerable duplication, and there is no doubt that there was a great deal of duplication. We have altogether too many of these organizations doing the same work.
Then back in May of last year I asked what the proposed expenditure was for 1943, and in reply the minister gave a list totalling about 86,000,000.	Along in July, however,
when we asked for a break-down of the figures, that amount had been increased to $7,000,000. A meeting was held here in Ottawa from which the representatives of all these bodies went away feeling very happy, as the hon. member for Qu'Appelle said. No wonder they were happy! They got a million dollars out of it, in the same week. No wonder they were happy. Then they all left Ottawa, singing Hip! Hip! Hurrah! for the various organizations.
Let us see where we are in this matter. We had gone up from $6,000,000 to $7,000,000. Now we have reached a sky-high figure of
812,000,000, which is fifty per cent higher, to be expended this year. Of course they serve many more soldiers now overseas. Then one comes along and says, "We are qualified under the Charities Act." We know that all these organizations are doing good work. They are all doing good work; there is no doubt about that. But that is not the point. The point is; Are we running this affair in a businesslike manner, from a commercial aspect? Are the taxpayers paying, through overlapping and lack of control, once, twice, or three or four times for it?
Those people went away feeling happy, and it was thought that would be the last increase to the end of the war. Now the amount is up to $12,000,000. The finest organization of the lot, namely the Red Cross, came along later in the day and said, "We do not want to be in with these other organizations. We are a separate group, because we have a standard agreement, as we had in the last war, through the International Red Cross.

We cannot take government funds because we are a voluntary organization and are in a position quite different from that of the other organizations." There may be some weight in that argument, I am ready to admit. No one can speak in greater praise than I of the Red Cross, because I saw its work in two wars, and during the period of peace between those two wars. I know it was doing a great deal of charitable work. But it must be pointed out that there is duplication. Let me tell the committee this, that that one organization did not get a cent from the auxiliary services. These services have now been expanded, until they extend almost to all the letters of the alphabet.
I have in mind another body which has done a great amount of good work, and has itself collected about $2,500,000. I have in mind the British war victims fund, sponsored by the Evening Telegram of Toronto. They do not get a cent from this vote, but they have provided care for those people, and have done good work not only in England but also in Malta and many other places, since the beginning of the war. For that they have not received a cent. They are a voluntary organization, and do not receive anything from this vote. They have financed everything they have done, and their educational work has been good.
What do we find when we come to what are known as auxiliary services? I can say now that the report of the commissioner was never carried out-and I refer to the late Doctor Manion. That was a good report, but nothing has been done about it. Not only do the services get funds from this $12,006,000, .but they go to the provinces, and as a result we find much duplication. They have campaigns throughout Canada. The Y.M.C.A. had a campaign for S250,000; and the Navy League, which has done good work, has had a campaign for $200,000. We know that the Salvation Army, one of the finest groups of all in the country, conduct separate campaigns for funds. They go to the municipalities and ask for tag days. There is a tag day almost every Saturday, with the exception of a few Saturdays in the middle of summer.
The minister said last year that he hoped they would expand, and I have no doubt they have expanded. I know the minister has done good work, and I have no doubt, too, that many of these organizations will follow the army in the field. But there is duplication in all this. To-day the army has an organized press following it-a small standing army. And I can tell the committee this, that when

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there was criticism about Dieppe and Dunkirk, there was military criticism which suggested that there had been some tip-offs. But the army is followed around, in this Hollywood fashion, wherever it goes, by many organizations, all of which do good work.
The same applies in connection with these auxiliary services. Some of them are operating in connection with churches and other charitable organizations. Some organizations may want to supply a movable canteen, or to send one overseas. Under present circumstances that is not permitted, because of provisions in the War Charities Act. Well, if we are going to have a War Charities Act, then let us have a War Charities Act, or wipe it off the books altogether.
So far as I can see, the auditor general has no control over this fund. My hon. friend, the Minister of National Defence for the Army is not at the moment in his seat. However, the other night, speaking about the war expenditures committee, he said that the auditor general had control of those expenditures, and quoted from a blue book. I hold in my hand a letter from the auditor general, and I shall send a copy of it to the minister; in fact, I did send him a copy. This letter is addressed to me under date of October 2, 1942, and in it the auditor general states that everything I said was absolutely correct, and that he has no control over the war expenditures committee, nor has he any control over expenditures under the war appropriation measure.
A new officer known as the comptroller of the treasury is now in charge of any expenditures coming within the five corners of the war appropriation measure. I refer to security and defence, peace and order, the conduct of military affairs, protection of trade and the carrying out of measures deemed necessary, by order in council.
I can see very little public control over these organizations. I have before me a note with respect to sporting goods used by the auxiliary services, and that brings to mind the fact that in a pamphlet sent out from week to week by the Department of Munitions and Supply there was an item-I believe it was in the issue for last May-stating that that department had contributed 3175,000 a year to send sporting goods to the armed forces within Canada and overseas. Many organizations are doing the same thing.
I have looked into this matter as well as any hon. member, and I am convinced there is duplication by application to other departments for funds, and that some restraint should be imposed. What was the purpose of the War Charities Act? It was to protect an invasion by auxiliary organizations of the time allotted to victory loan campaigns. The public 100-145J
are asking that something be done, and that some brake or check be imposed on some of these expenditures.
Let me add that I receive many letters from the forces. I believe the minister should carry out the object of the War Charities Act, and should not allow these organizations to come here without hindrance and increase their vote from 37,000,000 to 312,000,000 in one year. There is no doubt the work done is good work, but from what I have seen of it I am convinced that there is much duplication, as there was in the last war. People club together to collect money to send equipment to the soldiers. Even the school children have been raising funds for movable motor canteens, and I say it was never intended that under the War Charities Act that this condition should exist. It was for that very purpose that, when war broke out, there was a determination not to have charity as we had it in the last war.
We are going to protect the victory loan, and see that something is done to eliminate some of the mistakes made during the last war. I know the minister has given a great deal of time to this work, because I have seen him on many occasions in Toronto. His work has been laborious, but I would ask him to try to straighten this matter out. I really believe there should be some further meeting in Ottawa of these public bodies with a view to reducing expenditures, and thereby protecting the pockets of the taxpayers. I say that because with victory loans, Red Cross campaigns, and other campaigns almost every month, I do not see where the money is to come from in this fifth year of the war.


Mr. ROSS (Souris):: As one listened to the statement by the minister this afternoon he could not help appreciating the great debt of gratitude owed by the citizens of Canada to the executive of the Canadian Legion. It has been through their efforts that the present educational programme has been carried on and made available to the armed services. Those people above all others in this country are deserving of the gratitude of every Canadian citizen, not only the soldiers and their relatives but those of us who live from coast to coast.
I well remember in the early days of the war suggesting to the then war services minister, the Hon. Mr. Thorson, that instead of having tag days and collections of different kinds for war charities and auxiliaries, they should be taken care of by means of taxation and a pro rata distribution made. I should like to know upon what basis distribution is made to the various organizations such as the Canadian Legion, the Salvation Army and other auxiliary services. I understand that the

War Appropriation-War Services
Red Cross is the only organization allowed to make a canvass but they must first obtain a permit from the department. I desire to know what control the minister's department has over the Red Cross in other respects.
I wish to repeat what has been said by other hon. members this afternoon and suggest that certificates of educational qualification be granted to those chaps in the armed services who are taking courses. Educational standards will mean a great deal to those chaps in the post-war period, and certificates of standing will be valuable to-them in getting employment in certain quarters.
I had an experience over the week-end when I met a young chap who had been in the Dieppe raid and was taken prisoner. He had been in a prison camp in Germany until October when he was repatriated. I was glad to learn from him that those men are now able to attend educational classes in that large prison camp. That is a worth-while project and I am glad to know that those men have an opportunity to improve their education. This chap enlisted at the outbreak of war in the Cameron Highlanders of Winnipeg. I was interested personally because he is a pal of another chap who worked on my farm prior to the outbreak of war. This man had had to work very hard all his life. He was married and had four children when he enlisted and went overseas, and I am glad to think he is now able to attend one of these classes and improve his educational qualifications.
All this is due to the Canadian Legion and its executive, and they deserve great praise for the manner in which they have carried out this work. I know that in the early stages of the war they did have difficulty in having their budgets passed by this board headed by Mr. Burton and I am glad to hear the minister say that they are now receiving practically all they ask for. I should like to have him explain how the division is made among the various auxiliary services such as the Legion, the Salvation Army and others.
We cannot say too much in praise of the volunteer efforts which have been put forth by the citizens of this country in connection with the Red Cross: Had it not been for the Red Cross many men who have been taken prisoners of war would have had a rather tough time at certain periods. The Red Cross parcels have proved a wonderful help, and we owe thanks to those citizens who have given so generously of their time and money to foster the work of this organization. Many of us do not know just how much these parcels mean to prisoners of war.
|Mr. J. A. Ross.]
Mr. LaFLECHE: The hon. member for Souris has asked about the Canadian Red Cross. Of its own volition that organization chose not to come in with the other auxiliary services. They pointed out, and have pointed out since, that the Canadian Red Cross Society is in close affiliation with the International Red Cross Society and their work is covered by conventions. Therefore they felt that they could do better work and their position would be clearer if they continued to ask Canadians to provide privately for their many requirements. As in the case of the auxiliary services, the Department of National War Services looks over the budget of the Red Cross and discusses it with them. Finally a certificate is issued to permit them to go out to try to raise so much money. It goes without saying that every hon. member and every Canadian wish the Canadian Red Cross well. They do a splendid work. A great deal of the money they obtain is used to provide food parcels for prisoners of war, not only Canadian and British but of allied countries.
I should like to say to the hon. member for Souris what I said to the hon. member for Davenport, that students who come under the Canadian Legion Educational Services will receive certificates of attainment setting out the success they have had under that plan. The hon. member wanted to know how much money was supplied to the different organizations. I can give him the figures for
1943.	While they are not up to date they will show substantially just what has taken place.
Before I give the figures I should like to reiterate that it is the Department of National Defence which says to us, "\Ve need this at such and such a place," be it a hostel, a canteen or an educational service; they tell us what is required and what auxiliary service they want to carry it out. In other words, the particular department of national defence say what they want and by whom they wish it carried out. My department does not say which auxiliary service will run the canteen at point A, the educational service at point B, the hostel at point C, or anything like that. The approximate figures for 1943 are as follows:
Canadian Legion	 $3,286,000
Knights of Columbus	 1.782,000
Salvation Army	 1,928.000
Y.M.C.A	 4.000.000
Y.W.C.A	 520.000
Navy League	 361,000
The total is approximately SI 1,900,000. The Y.W.C.A. is the only auxiliary service looking after the women of our armed forces, and it

War Appropriation-li ar Services
operates in Canada only. The Navy League operates in Canada only in so far as these figures are concerned. I would point out to the hon. member for Broadview that the auxiliary services I have just mentioned provide in Canada, in Newfoundland and overseas, the type of service for the Canadian armed services which is provided for the United States forces by the U.S.O. The American Red Cross provides the same services abroad for the United States as is provided in Canada by these auxiliary services. The navy, army and air force institute provides auxiliary services to the imperial forces similar to those provided by the organizations I have mentioned. It will be seen that it is a necessity to look after the morale and the education of the, members of the armed forces, and so far as Canadians are concerned, those necessities are made available through these organizations.
There has been an increase, and I am very happy that my hon. friend the member for Broadview brought it up. The increase is due to the very large increase there has been in the number of armed personnel as compared with the year previous. There has been an increase of over fifty per cent in the number looked after by these auxiliary services. I should like the hon. member for Broadview to believe me when I say I am satisfied there is no duplication, and that is borne out by the fact that there is one authority for these six organizations and no two operate the same service.
It will please the hon. member for Broadview who, along with others, to my knowledge has for so long been such a great worker for the returned men-I know and have always admired his very great patriotism-to learn that by reasons of the precautions taken and the arrangements made well in advance by the representatives of the auxiliary services, comforts for the soldiers went to Sicily and to Italy on the very same boats as the soldiers themselves. It is a peculiar story, but some of these comforts, cigarettes and so forth, were packed in Canadian tanks for the voyage across the water. The tanks, of course, were emptied of the comforts before they went ashore and the comforts were carried ashore separately. Therefore the representatives of these auxiliary services shared in the great glory of carrying on side by side in Sicily and Italy with our Canadian fighting men.


Thomas Langton Church: On July 13 of last year, at page 4751 of Hansard, the minister gave a break-down for these six or seven services, showing the estimates of their requirements and the allotments.
Mr. LaFLECHE: The figures I then gave were of expenditures. It is not possible with any degree of accuracy to estimate far in advance just what the forthcoming year will bring in the way of expenditure, because there are always changes, new institutions and new establishments. It depends to some extent upon the changes in training. The training is now pretty nearly completed, and our moving armies must be followed by these auxiliary services. That costs money, of course. The increase is due to the establishment of numerous new bases, camps and sites in Canada on both Atlantic and Pacific coasts; new services to navy personnel due to the establishment of new bases; the increase of women personnel in the forces, requiring new services, particularly the establishment of urban health centres; changes in the nature of overseas operations, including new theatres of war. The educational services were budgeted for a year and a half ago, necessarily, so that we can look after the beginning of the coming school year. Then there was the necessity for capital expenditures for the purpose of furnishing Canadian supplies in Newfoundland and in actual theatres of war. There was also an increase in navy, army and air force personnel of approximately fifty-four per cent over the previous year.


Thomas Langton Church: I understood that under the War Charities Act the minister was required to lay before parliament, within fifteen days after the opening of the session, a statement of the disbursement of these moneys, audited by the auditor general. Has that practice been followed?
Mr. LaFLECHE: That comes in the auditor general's report.


Mr. GRAHAM:: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to add my meed of praise for the very fine work that the Canadian Legion war services is doing in bringing educational services to the young men and young women in our armed forces who desire to make use of them. Education in its broad sense is the great leavening force which, as the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar suggested, will in the long run make democracy work. I do not think, however, that the word education should be narrowed down-I do not think he intended to do so-to merely scholastic training. In its broad programme the war services organization has done and is doing excellent work among our young men and our young women in the armed forces, particularly on those occasions when they might feel life becoming monotonous and when their youthful energy demands some form of activity to occupy themselves. If we can on such . occasions divert their attention to improving

War Appropriation-War Services
their minds and equipping themselves a little better to take their part in the post-war world, they themselves-and Canada-will reap a very great reward from this educational work that is being carried on under this department of government.
I do not know Mr. Burton, to whom the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar has referred, but I do say that he and the members of his committee must be given some credit at least for the very fine results which the minister has laid before us this afternoon. I will go farther. Certainly I would not condemn Mr. Burton for suggesting that it might be wise for young students at the age of fourteen, or fifteen or sixteen, to go out into life.


Major James William Coldwell: He said fourteen.


Roy Theodore Graham: Many educationalists of the highest repute believe that it would be a very wise thing if every student who intended to pursue higher education were given an opportunity at some stage to go out into the world and learn something of the practical things in life, learn some of those things which a good student must know if he is to make the best use of higher education.


Major James William Coldwell: Fourteen is normally too young for that.


Roy Theodore Graham: I am inclined to the
opinion that fourteen may be too young, but nevertheless Mr. Burton was only suggesting their going out into the world for a period and from my experience in my own family I consider it a wise thing to do, so that the young student, having gained actual experience in the practical things of life, will then take up his education with a new purpose and a new energy to equip himself for life. Undoubtedly he will be benefited greatly by that period of settling down, shall I say, into a purpose that will guide him in the avocation he has chosen. It happened to be my privilege to meet some of the officials in charge of this particular work, and cerainly nothing that I learned on that visit to the headquarters of the Canadian war services lessened the admiration which I have for the work that is being done.
I was told of one incident which will illustrate the real value of education as a morale builder, apart from the training which is given by any educational programme. I believe that many persons, particularly young people, have a sense of inferiority which may develop into a complex if, in this day and age, they find themselves not equipped with reasonable educational qualifications. I was informed that out of a number of army units-regiments or battalions-about one hundred indivdiuals were about to be discharged as unlikely to become efficient soldiers. Anybody who has been

in the army knows that in any battalion there are certain individuals who do not fit in and cannot apparently become an efficient part of army life. Consequently these men were being drained out of these battalions and were about to be discharged, when it was suggested that they be brought together and that some examination be made of the factors which rendered them unfit for the duty which was being asked of them. The result of the experiment was remarkable. These men were discovered to be quite illiterate. They could not write and they could not read. Not knowing what was posted on the order board, or able to read any publications, they were incapable of participating in the discussion and appreciation of the orders and documents which were being distributed among their comrades. Accordingly the Canadian Legion war services undertook the task of teaching them to read and write. I shall not enlarge on what was done, but I would point out the result. Of the hundred individuals involved in this experiment, eighty were returned to their battalions, and their subsequent records were those of fine, able members of our Canadian army forces.
That is an extreme instance of the value of education. It shows that the real reason why these young men did not fit into army life was their complete inability to appreciate the nature and purposes of the tasks imposed upon them. To them these tasks seemed nothing but drudgery, a series of regulations and orders which perhaps irritated them and aroused their antagonism. The ability to read and write gave them an opportunity to appreciate the contribution they were making, so that they went back to their units with an entirely different viewpoint. Of course, in all walks of life, including our own, and at all ages, further education along proper lines greatly increases morale and heightens the appreciation we have of the part we play in life.
For this reason, while I do not know that the department over which the minister presides is not sufficiently generous toward this particular project, I urge upon the minister the advisability of making generous provision to carry on this very fine work.
One thought which gave me some concern as I gave consideration to the work of this particular branch in connection with our armed services was that the young men and women who perhaps least of all need this assistance are the most likely voluntarily to take advantage of it and to devote the time and effort necessary to equip themselves, and unfortunately those who most need this assistance will be the last to volunteer. I suggest to the minister that he strongly urge those in charge of this particular programme to see to it, not only that the opportunity is given to all

New Brunswick Railway Company
these young men and young women, but that a certain amount of encouragement-not compulsion-is given to those who most need it to take advantage of the opportunities of training in some particular line. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. Sometimes, however, by wise methods you can persuade it. I suggest to the minister that that is one point to keep in mind, namely, that most likely those who readily volunteer to take advantage of this splendid opportunity will be those who least need it, and an effort should be made to bring to the attention of those who do not appreciate it, the advantages to be gained in equipping themselves for later life.
We have learned with great interest of the programme of post-war rehabilitation. This is an important opportunity which, if made use of, will prepare those who take advantage of it, either not to require government assistance in rehabilitating themselves, or, if they do require it, the better to take advantage of it.
In conclusion, I would1, as I say, add my meed of praise to the organization itself and to the committee of volunteers who have made possible the results which the minister has outlined to-day. It is a great work, and we can readily and wisely provide the funds which will enlarge and expand and make even greater and finer the results already achieved.
Progress reported.
At six o'clock the house took recess.
After Recess
The house resumed at eight o'clock.



PRIVATE BILLS


[Stage Direction]
Mr. H. R. EMMERSON (Westmorland) moved the second reading of bill No. 39, respecting the New Brunswick Railway Company.
Gordon Graydon: So far as I can recall I do not think that on the introduction of this bill or on the first reading of it the hon. member who is introducing it gave any comprehensive statement as to its effect. This would seem to be the appropriate time to have that done.


Mr. EMMERSON:: Mr. Speaker, this bill had its origin in the senate and was passed by the senate on March 22 of this year. The purpose of this bill is to enable the company to reduce its capital by paying off pro rata among its shareholders paid-up capital which is now in excess of its wants. .
The company was incorporated in 1870 by chapter 49 of the statutes of New Brunswick. In 1881 the work of the company was declared to be work for the general advantage of Canada, and the company is subject to the jurisdiction of parliament and to the Railway Act. On July 1, 1890, the company leased and demised all its lines of railroad, having an aggregate length of about 420 miles, and all the company's plant, rolling stock and equipment, to the Caandian Pacific Railway Company for a term of 990 years. As a matter of fact, the railway has become part and parcel of the Canadian Pacific railway system in New Brunswick.
By this lease, subsequently made binding on both parties by parliament in 1891, the Canadian Pacific Railway company undertook to maintain and operate the railway system and the New Brunswick Railway company agreed to maintain the corporate existence of the company until the termination of the lease. It is accordingly impossible for the company to go into voluntary liquidation and distribute its assets. Apart from the railway properties the only remaining assets of the company were certain freehold timber lands in New Brunswick which had been granted to it by way of subsidy when the original lines were constructed.
Since 1890 the business of the company has consisted solely in managing these timber lands, granting stumpage rights, and from time to time selling portions of them. In recent years these lands have consisted of about 1,600,000 acres; a substantial portion of this acreage has now been sold to purchasers in New Brunswick, and the purchase prices have already been paid or shortly will be paid in full. The result is that the company will have on hand capital in excess of its requirements. The capital stock of the company consists of 30,000 fully paid shares of the par value of $100 each.
Under the Dominion Companies Act a company incorporated by letters patent can reduce its capital and pay off any paid-up capital which is in excess of its wants (section 49).
Under the Railway Act power is given to a company to increase its capital stock from time to time, subject to the approval of two-thirds of the shareholders and of the governor in council (section 78), but no general provision is made for reduction of capital. Consequently in each case it is necessary to apply to parliament for legislation permitting such reduction.

New Brunswick Railway Company
In the present bill the by-law enacting the reduction has to be confirmed by at least two-thirds of the shareholders and subsequently by the governor in council, after publication of notices of the application for the reduction. In practice this would mean that the governor in council would act on a report and recommendation of the Minister of Transport, because the New Brunswick Railway Company falls within the jurisdiction of his department. The company would, naturally, satisfy the Minister of Transport that they had taken care of liabilities and had funds on hand with which to pay off their shareholders.
I understand that the Minister of Transport has no objection to the bill nor has the Canadian Pacific Railway Company. It is also my understanding that the income tax authorities have no objection to this bill which, in point of fact, merely gives the company, which is to all intents and purposes a land company, the same rights as any other company subject to section 49 of the Dominion Companies Act.
Full details and explanations will be given by those representing the company when the bill comes before the railway committee.


John Horne Blackmore: Could the hon. member tell us why this bill came in the back door of the Senate instead of coming into the House of Commons?


Henry Read Emmerson: I understand that is usual. I know of no reason why it came in the back door as the hon. member suggests.


John Horne Blackmore: That is what makes me suspicious. I wonder why that was done.


Mr. McLARTY:: Private bills are usually introduced in the first instance in the senate, which explains why this reference comes from the other house to this house.


John Horne Blackmore: Why the exception in the case of bill No. 37?


Mr. CASTLEDEN:: What is the amount involved in this bill?


Henry Read Emmerson: I am afraid I cannot give the details of that, but that information can be supplied when the bill is in committee. The capitalization of the company is 30,000 fully paid-up shares at $100 each. I make that $3,000,000.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 40, respecting Gore District Mutual Fire Insurance Company.-Mr. Homuth.


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed consideration in committee of a resolution to grant to His Majesty certain sums of money for the carrying out of measures consequent upon the existence of a state of war-Mr. Ilsley-Mr. Bradette in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
Departmental administration, $90,907.
Gordon Knapman Fraser: The following news item appeared in the Ottawa Evening Journal of February 17, 1944:
Four Canadian women-Mrs. Gordon Konantz of Winnipeg, Miss Agathe Dore of Montreal, Mrs. Jules Laine of Toronto and Miss Helen Doherty of Ottawa-have arrived in the United Kingdom to study the voluntary war work of British women's organizations, the war services department announced Wednesday. The trip was sponsored by the department.
Different fields of study have been allotted to each of the party, so that as w'ide a survey as possible could be made in the time available. The visit wall include both rural and urban centres in the United Kingdom.
The four reports to the department will deal not only with women's war activities but also with their plans for work in the post-war period.
Another item appearing in the same newspaper under date of January 4, 1944, reads:
While the war services department refused to give any information, Liberal ward workers in Ottawa West to-day were protesting the appointment of Miss Helen Doherty to head a delegation of four women on an "inspection" trip to Britain.
Miss Doherty, former secretary of the National Liberal Federation of Women, and now special assistant to War Services Minister LaFleehe, has been assigned to survey the work done -in Britain by women's volunteer organizations.
And further:
It had been established by this morning that the Catholic Women's League, the Red Cross, Protestant Women's organizations, the Y.W.C.A. and other organizations, which have been doing the actual work in voluntary services, had not been consulted on the appointments.
Miss Doherty left her post in 1940 as secretary of the national federation of Libera] women and shortly afterwards received an appointment to the war services department.
On March 18, 1943, I asked certain questions in regard to Miss Doherty, as follows:
1.	In what capacity is Miss Helen Doherty employed in the Department of National War Services?
2.	What are the duties attached to such position?

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3.	How long has she been employed in such position?
4.	What is the total remuneration which has been paid to 'her, either by way of salary or honorarium?
5.	What is the total which has been paid to her by way of travelling expenses and living allowance?
The minister gave the following information:
1.	General assistant.
2.	Assists generally, makes surveys and special studies of activities of the department, exercises supervision as required.
3.	Two years and six months.
4.	$9,190.
5.	$162.85 travelling expenses.
The minister stated that this lady made surveys for the department. Later on I should like him to tell us what surveys she has made. Then on March 24, 1943, I asked another question:
What sums and on what dates were payments made to Miss Helen Doherty as special assistant to the Minister of National War Services?
The minister replied as follows:
The following payments have been made to Miss Helen Doherty as general assistant, Department of National War Services, as authorized iby order in council P.C. 118/8785 on the 26th of September, 1942:
October 7-To August 31, 1942 (deductions were not then being
made at the source)	 $7,090 00
October 7-To September 30, 1942,
$300 less	deductions	 199	42
October 31-To October 31, 1942,
$300 less	deductions	 199	42
November 30-To November 30,
1942, $300 less deductions	 182 61
December 31-To December 31,
1942,	$300 less deductions....	182 61
January 30-To January 31, 1943,
$300 less	deductions	 182	61
February 27-To February 28,
1943,	$300 less deductions		182 61
On March 5, 1941, the hon. member for Huron North asked these questions:
1.	Is Miss Helen Doherty employed in the Department of National War Services?
2.	If so, in what capacity?
3.	When was she appointed?
4.	What salary or other remuneration is paid to her?
5.	Was she assigned to this position by the civil service commission?
6.	If so, on what date was the assignment made?
7.	If no assignment was made by the civil service commission, by whom was the appointment made and under what authority?
8.	Was any request made to the civil service commission for the appointment of Miss Doherty to such position?
9.	If so, what action did the civil service commission take thereon?
I should like the minister to answer thes6 questions, and I wish to ask further why it is necessary for Miss Doherty to visit this House of Commons quite frequently. I know she was around last session. I do not think she called upon any of the Progressive Conservative members or any of the members belonging to the other opposition groups, but certainly she paid visits to Liberal members and senators. I should like to know what amount Miss Doherty received by way of expenses for her trip to Britain, and what the other women received. I should like to know also if we can get a copy of any report that may have been made as a result of this trip. I think the committee would like to know what Miss Doherty does in the department, and also why the lump sum of $7,090 was paid to her. I think it is very unusual to pay a lump sum to a person who is supposed to have been in the sendee for two years. Why was she not paid on a monthly basis from the very first?
Mr. LaFLECHE: I take it, Mr. Chairman, that the questions which have been read by the hon. member have been answered in this house.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Partly answered.
Mr. LaFLECHE: As to the matter the hon. gentleman mentioned a moment ago, in regard to this young lady visiting the House of Commons, I have no knowledge of that unless it was to call at my office with reports when she had occasion to do so, as do other employees of my department. As to her expenses for the trip to Great Britain, and the expenses of the other ladies, I have no knowledge; this is the first time that question has been asked, but I shall be very happy to get the information and bring it down in the house. My hon. friend asks what Miss Doherty does. When the Department of National War Services was first contemplated a staff had to be found, a plan of organization had to be drawn up and certain positions had to be filled. I have it on good authority that at the very beginning this lady was considered for a position carrying a remuneration greater than she is now paid. I do not know precisely what was in mind but I have seen a proposed plan of organization under which the. department was to have been divided into four divisions, and Miss Doherty was under consideration to head one of these divisions at that time. That did not materialize. Yet she had been called into the department in August or September, 1940, on the understanding that she was being called in to take over the work. I think she was given an idea of about what

War Appropriation-War Services
was in mind by way of organizing the department. She remained there and, finally, at the time mentioned by the hon. member for Peterborough West, she was paid at the rate of $10 a day, if I remember correctly, for the time she had put in in the department.
Then she was appointed general assistant, or special assistant, at a rate of $3,600 a year. That is the story of Miss Doherty's coming into the department and remaining there. Since then Miss Doherty has gone to Great Britain, with three other ladies, to represent the department there. She has returned, and with the other three ladies is busy writing a report of what was seen. Since her return, however, she has taken on other duties, one having to do with discussions concerning repatriates, which have just arisen, and about which I do not know very much myself.
Another piece of work she has taken on for the department-or for me, if you like- has been to follow the proceedings of the special Committee of the House of Commons on radio broadcasting. Then, again, since her return to Canada, very recently also she has been a member of an interdepartmental committee in respect of UNRRA, which was mentioned last week in the house.
That, I regret, is, as well as I can remember, the hon. member's questions.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Would the minister tell us why these four women were picked? How were they picked?


Mr. PINARD:: The department picked
them; you would ask.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I
know I have asked ;* we want to know.


Joseph Albert Pinard: You ought to know.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: We want to know.


Joseph Albert Pinard: I should like to know
what difference there will be, so far as the interests of the general public are concerned. Every member who rises from the other side of the house-not every one, but some of them-always says, "I want to know, and the people want to know". Do the people ask you to find that out?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The people of Canada certainly need to know where their money is going. And any hon. member in this house who thinks they do not want to know is absolutely wrong. The hon. member who has just spoken has made a very peculiar statement. It is a statement which will go down with this government, and will help to put the government absolutely out of power when the next election comes

along. The hon. member who has just spoken knows perfectly well that money is being spent which should not be spent.


James Arthur Ross: Squandered.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Money is spent in that way. Is there an hon. member in the house who knows of any civil servants being paid a lump sum for work they did two years ago?


James Arthur Ross: Just a hand-out.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Is there any hon. member who knows of that? If so, I wish he would rise in his place and tell us.


Mr. BERTRAND (Laurier):: The question is whether it is due or not.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I believe the amount is $9,070-a lot of money.


Joseph Albert Pinard: For how long?
Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West). And you are asking the people of Canada to-day to go out and buy victory bonds.


James Arthur Ross: And for what service?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: We
want to know, and there is no reason why a member of parliament should not know. I asked a question in the house to-day in regard to grapefruit juice. The minister in his reply said it would not be in the public interest to give that information. Then I asked if he would tell me privately. Why did I ask if he would tell me privately? Because I wanted it on Hansard that a member of the House of Commons-


An hon. MEMBER:: Order.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I do not think the hon. member has any right to say "order".


James Arthur Ross: He does not want the story.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: We
want the truth; do not try to hide it. I asked a question, and asked if the minister would let me see the figures and the names. 1 asked that for one purpose only, namely to have it on Hansard that a member of this house in opposition has absolutely no chance in the world of getting at the facts, to find out where the money is going.
I have asked why this lady was appointed. I have asked by whom she was appointed. I have asked why she was appointed and who appointed her to go overseas, and how those ladies were appointed. There are women across Canada-thousands of them-doing voluntary

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work, working day and night in salvage depots, and doing other work; and they are not getting one red cent for it.


An hon. MEMBER:: And do not want any.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: And,
as an hon. member says, they do not want any. They do not expect any. They are doing it for love of country.


James Arthur Ross: This might be love of party.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: And
I do not think the hon. member for Ottawa East would have risen in his place and said what he did, had he thought things over. We want to know the facts.


Joseph Albert Pinard: This is probably one instance when it may be shown-


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Speak louder; I cannot hear you.


Joseph Albert Pinard: My throat is sore; you had better try to hear me. It is not surprising to me that I cannot get the ear of hon. members on that side of the house, and particularly the hon. member for Peterborough West, when a question of this kind is raised. If you touch the smallest item you get more from that hon. gentleman than you get from any other hon. member in the house, so far as criticism is concerned. But he would let millions go by without any interference. He talks about his patriotism. He talks about many things-


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Mr. Chairman-


Joseph Albert Pinard: Take your time. I will
speak louder later when my throat gets better. I have followed my hon. friend for a long time. I know what service has been rendered by the ladies of this city and outside this city. When he says that people have not been paid for two years, after being employed for the last two or three years, I do not see how he finds that out, or how he got that information.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: It is right in Hansard. I will refer to it.


Joseph Albert Pinard: I am not speaking for the
minister at the present time. Anyone who has given service for a year, or two years, or three years, is entitled to a remuneration. I do not know whether it is taxed or not.


Mr. TUSTIN:: Do you agree to paying her for two years after she has rendered the
services?


Joseph Albert Pinard: I agree to pay for whatever services she rendered.


George James Tustin: Possibly you made the
recommendation for her appointment.


Joseph Albert Pinard: Well, why not?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh!


George Russell Boucher: Are there any other illustrations just like that?


Joseph Albert Pinard: Sit down, Carleton!


George James Tustin: I said that maybe you made the recommendation.


Joseph Albert Pinard: I did not. She is not in
my riding, and there was no question of politics so far as her appointment was concerned. I know a little bit about this case, and I am glad I rose to get the facts before us, because it is said all the time by the Tory opposition, whenever they rise, that they do not only speak for themselves, but speak also for the people of Canada.


George Russell Boucher: Tell us what her position was before she got this appointment?


Joseph Albert Pinard: The hon. member for
Carleton is very anxious about the appointment. It will take you a long time to recommend anybody who will be placed in an appointment, because you are staying there for a long time. You do not want to hear about the appointment.


Gordon Graydon: Is the hon. gentleman whistling to keep up his courage?


Joseph Albert Pinard: May I say to the leader of the opposition that my courage has always been the same. All members of the house are trying to render the best service they can, and yet here we have an hon. member making so much fuss about an expenditure of five, six or seven thousand dollars when much more money is thrown away-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


Joseph Albert Pinard: The members of the opposition applaud, but let me finish-so much money thrown away by organizations directed by Tories, commissions and all that kind of thing. I do not know why Mr. Boucher will not say a word about this.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: The hon. member must refer to other hon. members by their ridings.


Joseph Albert Pinard: He is the hon. member for Carleton. I do not know why so much fuss should be made about this particular case. It was said a moment ago that I recommended this appointment. I do not like to ask my hon. friend to withdraw because it is picayune business on the part of any hon. member to speak of recommendations.


George James Tustin: I did not state that the hon. member had made a recommendation.

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Joseph Albert Pinard: I will say "small," if you do not like the word "picayune." My English has been learned on the street.


George James Tustin: You have a lot to learn all right.


Joseph Albert Pinard: Are you going to be my teacher?


George James Tustin: I certainly should not like to be.


Joseph Albert Pinard: These things should not be brought up when we are doing the best we can to win the war.


James Arthur Ross: Who are "we"?


Joseph Albert Pinard: The minister is endeavouring to conduct his department in the best interests of the general public and I cannot understand why we should lose so much time over such a small item. My hon. friend may like to do this, probably from a sense of fear, but I dislike it. I do not think it is proper. I do not think it can be said that this department has thrown away one five-cent piece, that it has not made all the expenditures it has made in the interests and for the advancement of the country.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Was it not Caesar who said, Methinks thou protest too much, dear Brutus?


Joseph Albert Pinard: My friend protests too much about his honesty.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I have never said I was honest, but I hope I am. The hon. gentleman has said that I only go after small things. The reason why we have to deal with small things of this kind is that when we get into the big money, the items where millions are spent or thrown away, as the hon. gentleman said himself, we cannot get an answer. If the hon. gentleman will look at page 1041 of Hansard of March 2 he will see that I asked a question with regard to shipbuilding, which means millions and millions.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: The hon. member realizes that we are not on shipbuilding. I hope hon. members will keep within the item that is before the committee at the moment.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I bow to your ruling, Mr. Chairman, but I just wanted to show the hon. member that I have tried to get proper answers. Whenever that has happened we are told by the government that it is not in the public interest. I want to tell the hon. gentleman and this committee that the people of Canada are interested in where their money goes. That is why I asked the question I did to-night. I should like to get an answer. I should like to know why

these four women were picked. I should like to know who selected them to go overseas. I should like to know whether the women doing volunteer war work were consulted as to who should go. I do not think they were, but I want to know.


George Russell Boucher: Perhaps I could amplify the question somewhat. The hon. member for Ottawa East seems to know a lot about Miss Helen Doherty. Probably he can tell the minister and he will be able to give us some of the answer's to these questions. What was Miss Helen Doherty doing before she went into the Department of National War Services? What was she doing during the two years for which she received $7,090? Upon whose recommendation was she appointed? What were her peculiar qualifications for the work she was doing? What was the pay of the two women who went over with her? What report did she make? We should be given full details of that report. I am sure if the minister cannot answer these questions the hon. member for Ottawa East will be able to help him since the hon. member seems to know so much about Miss Doherty. This is an item of $9,000, but if the hon. member for Ottawa East thinks that $9,000 paid to a lady for two years' services is picayune and if he knows of other occasions where money is being wasted, probably he will tell the committee and we will try to get to the bottom of them. This thing is in the fire, so let us pull it out of the embers.


Joseph Albert Pinard: The hon. member's question is so elaborate that I would ask him to put it on the order paper and I shall try to answer.
Mr. LaFLECHE: If I am permitted I shall do my best to give an answer. I trust that my words will not be taken amiss when I say that as far as I am concerned personally it is a matter of regret that the names of individuals who cannot be here to defend themselves are mentioned, as occurs at times. The question of the payment of public money is a matter of great importance; every hon. member has a right to ask his question and every question should be answered carefully and correctly. No one has a greater interest in the careful spending of money than those who have the honour to be members of the administration. As far as the department over which I have the honour to preside is concerned, 1 make bold to say that great care is taken in expending the people's money. I have been told by the civil service commission at times that I was attempting to run my department too economically. I leave that statement with the hon. members of this committee.
To return to the case in point, when the lady whose name has been mentioned this

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evening first joined the department there was no staff; there were no superintendents; there were no directors; this was a department that started at full speed before there was time to get it organized. All the employees of the department-they will be glad to confirm this if necessary-were going night and day for at least the first year and a half, each doing what he could to see that the work was kept up to date. Among these was the lady whose name has been mentioned this evening. The payment that was made to her was made a long time after she had carried out her work. She rendered great assistance to the department, but because of a series of events it was impossible for her to be paid. This went on from month to month and year to year with the employee not being paid and nevertheless not protesting, although that was not a very comfortable position for anybody to be in. Pinally my predecessor saw to it that it was made possible to pay the lady. The larger amount mentioned by the hon. member was such only because it covered nearly three years.
The question of sending the ladies overseas to represent the department arose early in 1943 when I, as Minister of National War Services, thought it would be helpful in promoting the contribution of all Canadian women to the dominion's war effort to send a small delegation of Canadian women representing the Department of National War Services to survey what was being done in Great Britain by the women of that country, and upon their return to report on what they had seen. Then that information would be made available to all Canadian women through their organizations or otherwise. The Dowager Marchioness of Reading, Chairman of the Women's Yoijntary Services for Civil Defence in the United Kingdom, having learned of my intention in this regard, last May indicated that her organization would be delighted to extend every possible cooperation to the ladies who would come from Canada to survey the work being done by the women of that country in Britain's war effort. At a business conference of the Canadian women's voluntary services and others in Ottawa on June 28, 29 and 30,	1943, I expressed the hope-I
announced, if you like-that the war services department would try to send a delegation of three or four Canadian women to study and report upon the operation of British women's organizations doing patriotic war work.
In this house, Mr. Chairman, in reply to a series of questions by the hon. member for Danforth on July 12, 1943, I set out precisely how the choice of the department's representatives would be made, and that procedure was followed. My proposal, as I thought was thus made clear from the very outset, contemplated a somewhat broader mission than merely sending representatives who would confine their activities to surveying any one women's organization in the United Kingdom, and was designed to make available to all Canadian women information that they could use to the best advantage in their work in Canada. It must be remembered that there are many women's organizations doing patriotic work in Canada, just as there are in the United Kingdom, and the, Department of National War Services has a broad and continuing responsibility to assist, in whatever way may be possible, the Canadian women doing patriotic work in Canada in support of the war effort.
No objection reached me following my statement in this house on July 12, 1943, in reply to a series of questions by the hon. member for Danforth as to how the department's delegation would be chosen, and I proceeded accordingly as had been announced.
The members of the department's delegation were Mrs. Gordon Konantz of Winnipeg, Miss Dore of Montreal, Mrs. Laine of Toronto and from the department, largely for departmental purposes, Miss Helen Doherty of Ottawa. Since Mrs. Konantz and Miss Dore were prominently identified with women's voluntary services working in Canada, quite naturally they were assigned the duty of observing what was being done by the women's voluntary services for defence in Great Britain. Mrs. Laine, who had been active and very successful in regard to other women's work, and Miss Doherty who has a splendid record of work in connection with women's work, and particularly in work for returned soldiers, were given other assignments.
I should like to emphasize that these four Canadian women were chosen, not as individuals representing any particular group, but as representatives of the department, with special emphasis in the case of two of these ladies in connection with women's voluntary service work. One departmental official was included for the obvious and necessary purpose of ensuring continuity in the interests of the department and of patriotic work by all women's organizations in the dominion. It was necessary, however, before the ladies left Canada, to deal with this matter with great secrecy for security reasons, to safeguard the delegation in travelling by boat to and from the United Kingdom in the midst of hazardous war-time conditions at sea.
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Maybe because they did not apprehend all aspects of my intentions and of the department's intention in sending the departmental delegation to Great Britain to examine the patriotic work of all women's organizations there for the benefit of all Canadian women's organizations and of all Canadian women, some ladies in Canada were moved to express regret that the delegation was not composed exclusively of women identified with women's voluntary service work here. My conception of the situation and of the requirement was that if we took up any women's work we had to do our best to take up all of it, and that will be the result when we read the reports from these four ladies. I have already said this evening that the four ladies in question are now busy writing their reports.
I should like to add that the ladies in question, each one of them, were highly recommended to me. In the case of Miss Doherty, she being a departmental employee, that matter was not of so much significance as in the case of the other three. Not only were they very highly recommended, but the reports I have had from Lady Reading in Great Britain are that she had great admiration for the work these ladies did over there. I hope to have their reports soon, when they will be brought to the attention of all Canadian women's organizations for their information and, I trust, for their assistance. I think that is the answer which my hon. friend requested.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I wish the minister to understand that I have absolutely nothing against Miss Doherty or any of the other ladies. It is wholly a question of how these people are engaged and how they are paid. The minister said that it was owing to a series of events that Miss Doherty was not paid for over two years-almost three years, he said. He did not tell us what the series of events was, or why, when she was hired, no provision was made in the order in council for payment. I asked, what did Miss Doherty receive for expenses on the British trip; how long was she on that trip; did the other ladies receive their expenses; did they receive any salary, or how was the matter worked?
Mr. LaFLECHE: Miss Doherty being a departmental employee, her pay continued. All the ladies were given the same amount of expense money. I am sorry that, since I did not know the question was coming up, I have not the figures. Mrs. Laine, one of these ladies, has advised the department that she will not put in any claim. She not only offered 
her time but has declined to accept any expense money. That is greatly to be admired. It is only fair to say, however, that it is not possible for all persons under such circumstances to refund advances and to decline to put in their accounts. However fine it is, it is something we shall all agree cannot be expected of everyone.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I quite agree with the minister that there are many women who cannot afford to pay their own way, and who should be reimbursed. Perhaps at the next sitting the minister will be able to tell us what they got.
Mr. LaFLECHE: If I may, I will treat it as a question,


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Yes.


James Arthur Ross: The minister in discussing this last matter said that Miss Doherty had been engaged in radio broadcasting. I have had many letters from people in western Canada asking about a Miss Claire Wallace, who is engaged in radio broadcasting, and I have received many newspaper clippings, and inquiries as to what salary and what expense account this lady receives from the government. If this comes under the minister's jurisdiction I believe it would be well, in the interests of the country, if we could have a satisfactory answer immediately. Many people are asking if this woman is worth her hire in the matter of war savings stamps. I believe that is the chief reason why she is engaged; and since the sixth victory loan is just now being launched many people may make this matter an excuse for dilatoriness about subscribing to the loan. Perhaps the minister would give a detailed statement of what this lady's salary and expense account have been during, say, 1943; what salary she now receives per month, and what expenses she is allowed. It would give our fellow citizens who are trying to sell victory bonds an opportunity to clear up possible misconceptions, because this question is very interesting at the present time to many people throughout western Canada.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Order. Before the
minister answers, may I say this. We are now discussing the item of war charities. I hope it will be found possible to restrict the discussion to that item.


James Arthur Ross: This is administration.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Well, this is administration of war charities. The committee will have before it items concerning administration of all the other branches, and I think it would simplify the work of the committee and also of the minister concerned if the discussion were related specifically to this item.

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Mr. LaFLECHE: I trust that, when we come to other items which have already been discussed, hon. members will recall the fact.
I welcome questions such as have been put this evening. The hon. member for Souris mentioned Miss Claire Wallace. I regret very much that I am not the competent authority to answer. I have seen, of course, something in the press, and the matter was brought up in the radio committee. But the lady is not employed by my department or by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. I believe she was given some work to do, that her services were required by the war finance ' committee. To give any figures would be to guess, and I hesitate to do that. But the matter is not in my department.	#


James Arthur Ross: The reason why I
asked this question on administration was in order that the minister, if it related to the C.B.C., could deal with it. I now understand that she probably is hired by the war finance committee to sell war savings certificates. I do not know anything about this myself, but 1 have had dozens, if not hundreds of letters from many parts of the west in recent months, and because some people are making it an excuse to hesitate about subscribing to the victory loan, the sooner the matter can be cleared up, the better. I may have to wait to ask the Minister of Finance, but I thought it might be answered under the C.B.C. item.
Mr. LaFLECHE: I feel very much as the hon. member does, and I can only say that I regret very much that I have not the information. All I could say would be guesswork, and he does not want that.


James Arthur Ross: Oh, no. It has been reported that this lady now receives $200 a week and an expense account. If the minister could get the information and give it on behalf of the government, it would be in the interests of the country to have the matter cleared up quickly.


Ernest George Hansell: I do not want to interrupt the continuity of discussion; that, perhaps, is one thing which frequently happens when we are in committee. From one matter we jump to another; then we return to the first subject, then jump to something else, and so on.
This afternoon the minister gave us quite an adequate picture of the courses which are administered through his department to men serving in the armed forces. I should like to know whether his department is responsible for the lectures which are now being given in various branches of the armed services with respect to post-war rehabilitation. A series of lectures is being given to inform
members of the armed forces of what will be done for them after the war. If this activity comes under the minister's department, I should like the opportunity of discussing it now. If it does not come under his department, would he tell us what department has to do with it, so that I may discuss it under the appropriate item?
Mr. LaFLECHE:	I understand that the
lectures in question are prepared primarily by the directors of education of the defence departments and by the Canadian Legion's educational officers. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that if the hon. member wishes to discuss an item it might be better to wait until we get to the next one; but, since we have not differentiated so far, this is just as good a time as any.


Ernest George Hansell: It does not matter very much really, whether it comes under the minister's department or not. The only point is I want to be in order. I think we are all aware that a series of lectures is being given to members of our armed forces on the matter of their rehabilitation when the war is over. I should like some information in that respect and perhaps the other ministers can give it to me. What sort of lectures are they and who prepares them; who are the officers who are lecturing? I understand it is an officer in the particular camp where the lectures are given who gives the lecture. Who prepares these courses? Are the officers competent to give lectures? Who informs them as to what the rehabilitation programme is to be? I have talked with quite a few men in the forces with respect to those lectures. I wonder why the lectures are given. I have no objection to the soldiers being informed as to what the country is to do for them after the war, but I wonder whether there may not be a principle involved. Is it because the members of the armed forces are getting a little restless as to what may happen to them, and we have to pacify them by telling them this?
There is another principle involved and I do not want to be misunderstood as I propound what is in my mind. In making a speech or answering a question the other day the minister said we had to have faith. My work for a good many years taught me that I had to live by faith, and perhaps I know just a little bit about that. There was a time in my life when I used to make it a rule, because I thought it was quite ethical to do so, to trust everyone and consider that everyone was honest until I found that they could not be trusted because they were not honest. I thought that was a pretty good rule to follow in those days, but I have been in politics now for a few years and it seems to me-perhaps

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I have fallen a little bit from those high ideals-that I am gradually unconsciously slipping into that place where I do not trust anybody, and consider that everybody is a crook until I make extremely sure he is just and honest. That seems to be about the way I have a tendency to feel. I hate myself for it. But somehow or another that is the life of one who is in politics very long.
I cannot see what kind of lecture can be given to these men on post-war rehabilitation except a lecture on what the present government proposes to do for them. I cannot see what they can be told, apart from the legislation that is at present on the statute books or the legislation that the present government is contemplating bringing down this session.


Mr. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: They can be told to vote Liberal.


Ernest George Hansell: My hon. friend says they can be told to vote Liberal. I would not go so far as to accuse any officer giving those lectures of deliberately doing that. But what is the result? What can be expected? It seems to me that it is only natural to say that if the lecturer satisfies the men in the armed forces that the government who is preparing this legislation is going to look after them when the war is over, naturally they will go away with the impression-well, I guess it is a pretty good government after all; I guess we will have to put the X mark down in the right place, and so forth. I hope I am not overemphasizing my fear in that respect, but I believe that is the natural tendency.
Of course, the only proper thing that could be done to offset that would be for officers to be trained and schooled in what all of the other parties in this country would like to do for the returned soldier. In that way the men in the forces would be able to know that between the three in some way or another they would be looked after, and then perhaps the tendency would not be as it is to-day. I believe the lectures that are given to-day on the basis of the present legislation are a bit lopsided.
There is another point. I do not know whether the minister is aware of this, but these lectures are compulsory. The members of the forces are paraded and they have to listen to them whether they want to or not. I hope I do not go to the extreme when I say there is a possibility that the members of the armed forces are forced to listen to our Liberal friends' programme. I am voicing that observation. I trust the minister as much as anyone else does. I have as much faith as anyone else has, but unfortunately I believe that to be the case.

Mr. LaFLECHE:	I do not think it is for
me to reply to the respected hon. member for Macleod in regard to faith, but I may tell him that the saddest thing is to lose one's faith, and if he would be happy to believe not only in God, but as far as he can in man, it would be a fine thing.
In regard to the lectures mentioned by the hon. member for Macleod I think I explained that they are prepared by the educational officers of national defence working with Canadian Legion educational officers. I do not know that any of those lectures are compulsory; but having been in that position myself for a long time, it may well be that some conscientious commanding officer would parade his men to hear those lectures because he believed in them himself. It is not correct, I am sure, to think, and even less to suggest that these lectures are in the nature of an appeal to vote in favour of the administration. If one were to express one's full thoughts on such a matter one might guess, perhaps, that certain zealous persons might have infiltrated behind the lines and there had some effect upon what was said; but I think in both cases one would be wrong. The motives of these people who work to educate others are good. The commanding officer is there to watch how things are going. I have not heard any stories which would substantiate in my mind the thought which has been expressed by the hon. member for Macleod. I trust that this will be accepted by the hon. member as a reply to his question, but, if not, I shall be glad to listen to and try to answer any other questions he may care to ask.


Mr. BENCE:: In connection with the board, headed by Mr. Burton, which was mentioned this afternoon, I endeavoured to follow the minister as closely as possible and he may have given the information I want, but, if so, it did not come to my notice. Would the minister say in what manner the members of this board were chosen. In other words, how did he go about ferreting out the individuals who compose this board? For example, did he obtain recommendations from the various organizations or associations which receive grants? Did he obtain recommendations from the Canadian Legion, the Knights of Columbus, the Navy League of Canada, the Salvation Army and so on? How were the members from the various provinces selected and appointed to this board? Then I wish the minister would tell the committee what expenses have been incurred by the board since its organization. I understand the members are not in receipt of any salary, but perhaps the minister would tell us the number of meetings that have been held, the

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per diem allowances, if any, which have been paid the members of the board, and the total expenses to date.
Mr. LaFLECHE: I should like to point out that these ladies and gentlemen were appointed at least two years before I became head of this department, and I am not in a position to say how they were chosen.


Alfred Henry Bence: You were the deputy minister, were you not?
Mr, LaFLECHE: This came under my associate, the Hon. Mr. Justice T. C. Davis; it did not come under my direction at that time. I am not in a position to say how the members of the board were chosen; but from a few things I have heard I make bold to suggest to my hon. friend that he need have no fear whatsoever of any desire on their part, even three and a half years ago or whenever they were named, to play a game on the loyal opposition.


Alfred Henry Bence: I am not suggesting anything like that; I just want to get the information.
Mr. LaFLECHE: May we look upon them as good Canadians and judge their value from that one point of view alone? If I were permitted to do the judging I would and I do assure hon. members that these people are excellent citizens; they are very hard workers; they are. conscientious. I owe them this further tribute: they seem to have taken great care to see that the Minister of National War Services is always kept in a safe position in regard to approving expenditures. That is what I would expect of ordinary departmental officials, and I feel deep gratitude to these people. Yet I find them broad-minded and personally extremely generous, though very careful with the money of the taxpayers. I like Canadians like that.


Alfred Henry Bence: If I may interrupt with another question, I do not know anything about it but I want to find out the basis on which the representation was obtained. For example, on what basis would they go to Saskatchewan and select a man? On what basis would they go to British Columbia and select a man? Was it in reference to the type of work they had to do or the experience they possessed; was it in reference to any recommendations which might have been made, and, I think, should have been made, by the organizations interested?
Mr. LaFLECHE: I have already said that I am not aware of the basis of their choice; but speaking of them as persons who are members of the board and judging them from
that point of view alone, I do give my hon. friend my assurance that there is not a poor selection in the entire membership.


Alfred Henry Bence: Were they appointed by the Hon. Mr. Justice Davis, or were they appointed by some other person in the department?
Mr. LaFLECHE:	They were appointed
when the present Minister of Agriculture was the Minister of National War Services. His successor, now the Hon. Mr. Justice Thorson, renewed their term, and I also have renewed their term; at least on my recommendation they have been appointed for another year. As far as I recall, this is the first time this question has been raised. Just what I mean by that I do not know myself, except that as far as my knowledge goes their appointment has never been questioned, and I do not believe their actions can be questioned.
If I may continue with my answer, there are about ten meetings a year of the full committee and/or the executive committee. Members of the board receive no salary ; travelling expenses are paid, but a number of the members pay their own expenses. The cost of the meetings on a yearly basis is about $4,000. I hope that answers my hon. friend.


Alfred Henry Bence: I am not satisfied yet. I do not wish to cast any reflection upon these gentlemen; from what the minister says I assume that they are perfectly reputable citizens. I want to find out how well they are qualified to judge the sort of things they have to judge in connection with these matters, and I thought perhaps the minister might be able to give us some lead as to why different individuals were appointed to that board; their knowledge of education, for example, or their knowledge of - returned men, or their knowledge of some particular phase of the matters wffiich they must take under consideration.
Mr. LaFLECHE:	I would point out that
when these ladies and gentlemen were first appointed, the whole of Canada was being combed for persons who would consent to take on such difficult and onerous jobs. I do not know what the authorities had in mind at that time by way of necessary qualifications. There would hardly be reason for exacting, in any great number of cases, knowledge of education or educational methods, because at that time educational matters were but one subject of many that had to be dealt with. The putting up of canteens and hospitals and things like that, I imagine, were of much greater urgency than anything else. As time has gone on, however, educational matters have properly assumed greater importance, but these ladies and gentlemen who were named

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at that time know the work and the details of these organizations. I have seen them at work a number of times; I make it my business to attend their meetings whenever possible. They are good enough to invite me to the table; they do the talking and I do the listening. I do not interfere with their decisions, which are laid before me later, but it has seemed to me that each member of the board appeared to understand the problem thoroughly. I should say that each member of the present board is an excellent member. If he did not have the particular qualifications at the beginning I think he has acquired them by practice, as so many attainments are acquired.


Alfred Henry Bence: As far as the minister knows, then, these men were not appointed as the result of recommendations made by the various organizations who share in the grant that is made?
Mr. LaFLECHE; I do not know, I am sorry. I have no knowledge of that.


Clarence Gillis: I agree with the hon. member for Saskatoon City and with other hon. members who spoke earlier in the debate. In my view the time has passed when this remote control organization, known as the Burton committee, can serve any useful purpose. I could understand that when the Department of National War Services was first set up, because it was a new department entering a new field under the leadership of the Minister of Agriculture, it was entering upon duties concerning which he had very little knowledge. He had to reorganize the whole thing, from the bottom to the top, and I could understand his desire to set up a committee similar to the Burton committee to assist in scrutinizing the expenditures.	*
I think, however, the time has come when the present minister is in charge of a pretty thoroughly organized department. The defence organizations, which recommend in the first instance, and the auxiliary services, have well-defined organizations. I cannot see how a committee comprised of people from one end of Canada to the other, and particularly of very busy people, can be of much use. We were told this afternoon that unfortunately Mr. Burton is ill, and that leaves him out of the picture at the present time. However, when he is enjoying his good health he is very busy in other fields. I am sure, too, that Mr. Wallace R. Campbell is a very busy man in Windsor at the present time, bcause he heads a large organization. I cannot see how that board, which would have the final say in respect of any recommendation coming from the army, the navy, the air force or the
[Mr. LaFleche.l
auxiliary services, in connection with any extension or expansion of service, could do anything but block, or act as something which would retard progress. It has to be called together from all parts of Canada.
For example, the Canadian Legion war services may decide that they need literature, textbooks or printing. But before they can go ahead with their educational work they must secure requisitions from the committee. A month or two may elapse between the meetings of that committee. Meantime the Legion services, or other auxiliary services, are waiting for an approval from the board.
It is my view that the time has arrived when the board is no longer necessary. With the four years' experience they have had, I believe the defence and auxiliary services are in a position to-day to conduct the affairs of their departments through the Minister of National War Services. That organization is sufficiently well developed now, under a permanent minister, to be able to say just how the money which is being appropriated by parliament is to be spent. I believe it is desirable to get away from these controls. I have noticed the Minister of Munitions and Supply is dropping some of them. I believe the committee in question is the only one of its kind; there is no other which functions in any other department of government.
I see the treasury board as a stumbling block to the wheels of progress. Many departments of government are desirous of doing certain things, but they must obtain the approval of the treasury board before they can proceed. The committee in question is a similar one. In the first instance I can well understand that it took some of the work from the then minister, and at that time it was desirable to do so. But with the machinery now developed I do not believe the committee is necessary, and I believe, further, that it now retards progress.
I have sufficient confidence in the auxiliary services, the defence organizations and the Department of National War Services to believe that they can handle the business now, without the advice of busy men like Mr. Burton, Mr. Wallace Campbell and others, whose names I shall not mention. I am thinking about the work begun by the Canadian Legion educational services, both in Canada and overseas. Many boys in the armed forces have begun work on those educational courses, but before completion of the courses they may be discharged from the services. Is there any provision whereby, in cooperation with the legion in Canada, when a man of that kind returns from overseas with a partly completed course he may pick up

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the work in Canada? Or, does that man go back to the supervision of the Department of Pensions and National Health, and receive further instruction through a process of rehabilitation? If he is routed in that way I believe he will be forced to lose valuable time he has already spent in study, and it is my view that his studies should be continued in Canada, through the same organization. I believe that if these studies are continued through the regular processes of rehabilitation, in other schools, much of the work done will have been wasted.
I suggest strongly to the minister that in the light of present circumstances the decision to maintain this remote-control board is one which should be reconsidered, because I believe it has outlived its usefulness and serves no purpose to-day.
Mr. LaFLECHE: At the beginning of his observations the hon. member said that some members of the board were extremely busy men. Undoubtedly that is so, and perhaps it is just another instance of the willing horse doing a large part of the work. But I have great faith in busy men of a certain calibre who accept national duties. Here we find these gentlemen .working, not for themselves, but so that they may place all their talents and abilities at the disposal of the state.
May I assure the hon. member that the board has not authority. Authority and responsibility are those of the minister. The board only recommends. The minister acts, and he is responsible for what he does. That is the way it works.
The suggestion has been made that the board should be disbanded. May I assure the hon. member that, had I not the benefit of the services of the board in question I would feel very much cut adrift. My anxiety, rather, is that some day they will tell me that the war is ending or is over, that they have other things to do and, having done their job, that they will ask to be excused. That would be my fear. I do not like to see the hon. member for Cape Breton South worrying about anything that might have an adverse effect upon members of the armed forces, as a result of the operations of this board. It is my feeling and my conviction that the members of the armed forces benefit greatly from this board, because of the kind of people who are on it.
As to members of the armed forces beginning courses overseas, and then returning to Canada, may I point out that any member in that position may pick up in Canada the threads of the course he began in Great Britain.


Thomas Langton Church: Mr. Chairman, I should like to add just one more word to what I said this afternoon. We are dealing with the estimates having to do with the charities division, all of which comes under the charities act of September 9, 1939. The principle is that these auxiliary services will be financed from a general fund. The minister has said that this is a changing war, and it does change from year to year, from month to month and from week to week. The fifth year of the war is different from the fourth year; there are more soldiers overseas and more services are required. I understand that the practice now is for some of the charities which have been named, such as the Canadian Legion, to obtain the sanction of the minister to collect funds which are in addition to those obtained from the general fund. Then there is still another duplication. Many of these organizations go to the municipalities and obtain permission to hold tag days, and other organizations receive contributions from some of the various community efforts. There is no doubt that there is duplication in the collection of funds, but this may be explained by the fact that this is a changing war.
I come now to the' distribution of the services. There has been a change in the war since the minister dealt with this matter on July 13 last. I understand that now five or six different charities have been allocated particular work and there is no longer any duplication in this regard. The amount involved has been raised from $7,000,000 to $12,000,000, and there will have to be a further increase when we enter the sixth year of the war. We do not know when the war will close. I think the work of the department has been quite satisfactory, although I would raise the point that the public are not sufficiently informed about this matter. They know there is duplication in the collection of funds, but they do not know much about the distribution.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Mr. Chairman, I should like to ask the minister if his department has been able to make any calculation of the total amount collected in one way and another, not just for charitable -work but for providing goods and services to make the life of the soldier overseas a little easier. For instance, in the Chateau Laurier, and I suppose in other hotels as well, we find boxes in which people staying in the hotel can contribute to provide cigarettes for soldiers overseas or for some other purpose. The Canadian corps have a definite programme for the raising of funds and they provide many necessary supplies to our soldiers overseas. The same is true of the Canadian Legion and the Amps Association, et cetera.

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The Bloor street business men's association of Toronto, with which I am associated, each month sends many thousands of cigarettes overseas. In, the stores up and down Bloor street they have some sort of affair like a small lighthouse made out of cardboard into which customers place deposits. The St. Clair avenue business men's association do the same thing, as do many other associations throughout Canada. I shall not take the time to name them all but they are many in number. The women's branch of my own political organization, the Progressive Conservative Davenport-Dovercourt women's association, each year at Christmas sends an average of two hundred boxes overseas filled with goods to a value of not less than $5 each. This organization has received many interesting letters from soldiers overseas who have received these boxes.
The Montreal Star has been sponsoring a Queen Elizabeth fund which now amounts to some millions of dollars. The Toronto Evening Telegram has sponsored perhaps the greatest fund of all. This fund was started by Alderman John Innes, who came to Ottawa last evening with a Toronto city council delegation and met a number of the Toronto members this morning and during the afternoon. This fund was started two or three years ago by the alderman making the first contribution of $10. I went out a moment ago to try to get the exact amount, but I was not able to locate it.


Gordon Graydon: 


John Ritchie MacNicol: My leader got it more quickly than I could. The editor of the Toronto Telegram, Mr. C. 0. Knowles, told me that his paper has been assisted by many newspapers in Ontario, the Orillia Packet and Times, for example. These newspapers in the smaller communities sponsor funds and the proceeds are sent to the Toronto Evening Telegram fund. I have wondered on more than one occasion whether the department sends a letter of appreciation to these newspapers in recognition of the work they are doing? Then I imagine that every church in Canada is sending regular supplies to the members who are overseas.
Mr. LaFLECHE: I am glad to add my voice to that of the hon. member for Davenport in tribute to the generosity of the Canadian people. The more experience I gain, the more I deal with the Canadian public, the more I like and admire them. They are extremely generous and always respond to an honest appeal. Up to the end of the fiscal year of 1943, a little over a year ago, the total collections by the several organizations, a

number of which were mentioned by the hon. member for Davenport, amounted to $86,000,000. Returns are now coming in for the last year and are being tabulated up to March 31,
1944.	We estimate at the moment that about $26,000,000 will have been collected from a generous Canadian public for the purposes which my hon. friend has in mind.
The public organizations mentioned by the hon. member for Davenport are very well known to me and my department, and I am a hearty admirer of those who do such good work. May it be suggested that perhaps we have not yet reached the stage in this war where much public recognition can be given to many. However, records are being kept, and I do hope that when the time comes, the Canadian public will be made aware of the excellent work done by so many. I could, of course, add a number of excellent organizations to the two or three mentioned by the hon. member for Davenport. I could add the Toronto Star, the French newspapers in my own province, and the Montreal Star, which has done excellent work. I think every public service in Canada and every man connected with the Canadian public are sensitive to the necessity of doing well by their brother Canadians.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I thank the minister for mentioning the Toronto Star. If I did not mention it, I should have done so.


Mr. BURTON:: There are a fewr questions I should like to ask, and hon. members will pardon me if they are already familiar with these matters. As I understand it, we vote the money for these recognized war charities. Who has the control to say which of these charities shall operate in the various camps maintained by the armed services? Is it this advisory board of which we have heard so much to-day?
Then, as to the money we vote for these various organizations, who passes on the question of whether the money is properly spent? I had an opportunity of speaking to a number of persons who were at a certain camp which a certain organization was servicing, and I was told that the individual in charge of this particular service at the camp did not seem to realize the importance and the necessity of carrying on the work he was really sent there to do, whereas at another camp a similar organization was doing excellent work. No doubt the difference was due to the difference in the representatives of the organization at the two different camps. Who has control of the money that we vote? Who sees that good use is made of the money? Who inquires

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whether at another camp a certain organization might not be coming across with the goods, so to speak? That is something that some of us would like to know.
Again, where a camp no longer requires the number of war charities that were servicing it, who decides which organization shall pull out and which shall stay? These questions are of concern to the public. We realize that the expenditure is small in comparison with some other expenditures. Nevertheless, we would like to know how this work is carried on. Have I made myself clear to the minister?
Mr. LaFLECHE: I shall try to answer my hon. friend. The hon. member for Humboldt perhaps did not hear me this afternoon when I told the committee that each one of these projects is initiated by the department concerned, army, navy or air force. National defence makes the choice and advises me which auxiliary service shall carry on the work. If it is a canteen, that would be run by one service. If it is a hostel, that would be run by an. auxiliary service chosen by national defence, not by this department.
As to the successful operation of a project, of course much depends upon the manager or supervisor. At the beginning of the war perhaps they did not have a great many experienced supervisors, but time has seen to that and the reports I get are that the supervisors are doing a better job each year. At any rate they are followed up carefully, as in all other businesses, and there are auditors and inspectors. I hope and really believe that each one of these services is doing an excellent job.


Alfred Henry Bence: This item is for departmental administration. I do not know under which item I should ask a question with respect to the government office of economy control which was in effect at least last year. I do not know whether it is now in effect or not. Under which item would that question Come?
Mr. LaFLECHE: Under the last item, for sundries.


Mr. HAZEN:: This afternoon the hon, member for Vancouver South brought to the attention of the minister the desirability of educational services being made use of by the patients in our military hospitals. I understood the minister to say that he would make inquiries and let us know to what extent these services were being made available in some of our larger hospitals. I rise to inform the minister that I was told recently that these services have not been available in the Lancaster military hospital at the city of Saint John. I
was disappointed to receive this information, and I hope that situation will be corrected.
I understood the minister to say this afternoon that the application for these educational services in our hospitals had to be made through the officer commanding the hospital. If that is so, I would suggest that some change be made in the regulations, because the officer commanding, in charge of a military hospital, has a good many duties. I would suggest to the minister that officers from his department or from some other department be appointed to visit these hospitals and to point out to the military patients the opportunity they have, while there in hospital, of obtaining this education service and of the advantage it would be to them to apply themselves to some of these subjects while they are confined to the hospital.
Mr. LaFLECHE: I am grateful to the hon. member for bringing this matter up again. Men in hospital could undoubtedly benefit greatly from the educational service. I told the hon. member foT Vancouver South this afternoon that I did not believe I would be able to get the information for this evening. I promised to let the committee have it; I recall that because I saw a copy of Hansard just after dinner, and I know that is there on record. We shall have to get the information; we will bring it down, and we shall also have the remarks made by my hon. friend and will see that they receive attention.


George Stanley White: This afternoon the minister
was speaking about courses for soldiers and he said that a certain class of certificate was issued. I wish he would explain a little more fully what he means by this "class of certificate." Is it a certificate which is recognized by high schools or by the various universities in the different provinces?
Mr. LaFLECHE:	I said this afternoon
that there would be given a certificate of attainment to those members of the forces who followed an educational course such as we have been discussing. I have not a copy of the certificate. I know that will be done; my hon. friend may rely on that.


George Stanley White: Yes, but the point is, what is the benefit of this certificate of attainment? Does it entitle the soldier to a standing in a college or a high school or a university? Does it mean anything?
Mr. LaFLECHE: The certificate of attainment will have the same force in the scholastic world as a certificate from a school. If a pupil is able to show a certificate that he has attained the level of senior matriculation, that will be given credence and effect in the school which he wishes to enter. That is the plan.

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You cannot let these men study and then not have credit for the work which they have accomplished. When they attain a particular level of scholastic attainment it will so be certified and they will be given credit.


George Stanley White: Could the minister give us
some idea of the number of soldiers who have attained a certificate equal to either junior or senior matriculation?
Mr. LaFLECHE:	I am sorry I have not
that. This afternoon I read what I took at the time to be too many statistics. I shall get them if my hon. friend wishes it.


George Stanley White: Does the minister know
approximately how many soldiers are taking these courses?
Mr. LaFLECHE:	My hon. friend will find
that in Hansard. Would my hon. friend say what information he wants to get, and I will see that he gets it.


George Stanley White: The approximate number of soldiers who are taking these various courses.
Mr. LaFLECHE: Again, for fear of making an error I do not wish to make any statement, because I am not absolutely certain. I gave the figures this afternoon.


George Stanley White: That is all right. Just one further question so that there will be no misunderstanding. I take it from what the minister says that these certificates of attainment will be recognized by any school or college in any province of Canada, and that if a soldier obtains a certificate of attainment in England equivalent to senior matriculation, that certificate would entitle him then to enter Toronto university or any other university in Canada?
Mr. LaFLECHE: Yes; I have that information in my book, and it comes from the authorities. That is exactly what I take it to be, and it is in that light that I gave this information to the committee.


George Stanley White: I want to be sure it is not
just an opinion that the minister is giving, but that he knows definitely that this certificate will be recognized and accepted.
Mr. LaFLECHE: I have been advised that such will be the case, and I have not the slightest reason to disbelieve what I have been told. Whether the course takes place overseas or here, it has the same value.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Salvage division, $310,750.
Alfred Henry Bence: Will the minister give us some details of this particular expenditure? There are probably three main portions of

it, namely, salaries, travelling expenses and publicity. Would he give us particulars of the publicity angle of it?
Mr. LaFLECHE: My hon. friend will have noted that there is a decrease of $86,215 as compared with last year. The break-down of the total for the present fiscal year which I am now submitting to the committee is $310,750, composed of: salaries, $90,000; cost of living bonus, $3,500; unemployment insurance, $250; travelling expenses, $53,000; printing and stationery, $4,000; publicity, $150,000; miscellaneous, $10,000.


Alfred Henry Bence: Has the minister the figures indicating the manner in which that $150,000 for publicity is spent?
Mr. LaFLECHE: The item of $150,000 for publicity makes provision, of course, for the maximum we anticipate having to spend for that purpose. Our experience in dealing with salvage has been that it is impossible to estimate in advance exactly what may happen in that field during the coming year. To illustrate, may I say that, for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1944, we had earmarked $250,000 for publicity but we spent only about $37,000; we found it possible to carry out the work without spending the money. We were very fortunate in the last year in getting a vast amount of contributed advertising. There are several firms in Canada who patriotically gave salvage the advantage of their sponsorship in the papers, in the public press, and on the radio. The. time will come when I shall be in a position to express thanks to those several firms for the outstanding contributions which they have made. It was not necessary for me as minister to take steps to spend more than a relatively small amount out of the quarter of a million dollars voted for publicity last year. That item is $100,000 less this year than it was last year. We are very careful in spending money on publicity and other things. I hope, and I believe, that $150,000 will be enough. I hope that it will be. too much and that we shall not have to spend it all.


Alfred Henry Bence: That is surprising to me because the figures that are given on page 397 of Hansard for last year are $396,965. Does the minister say that that money was not spent?
Mr. LaFLECHE: I was speaking of the item for publicity.


Alfred Henry Bence: Yes, I know.
Mr. LaFLECHE: Last year that item was $250,000. The figure now before the committee is $150,000. I explained that last year

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we spent $38,000 out of $250,000. I explained why it was possible to save a very great deal of money.


Alfred Henry Bence: How much was spent by the department altogether last year on salvage?
Mr. LaFLECHE: The books have not yet been closed, but the last recorded expenditures that I have are $171,975.


Alfred Henry Bence: That is the total?
Mr. LaFLECHE: Yes; it will be more than that, but that is a very large part of the expenditure.


Alfred Henry Bence: What it means is that last year the publicity was down considerably from what it was the year before?
Mr. LaFLECHE: Yes.


Alfred Henry Bence: Because the year before it was $146,000.
Mr. LaFLECHE: That is correct.


Alfred Henry Bence: That has been reduced to $38,000?
Mr. LaFLECHE: It was possible to achieve the results without spending the people's money.


Alfred Henry Bence: The point I am making is this: What is the difference between the $146,000 spent the year before and the $38,000 spent last year? Why should there be such a large spread? How was it the government could save so much money in the two years?
Mr. LaFLECHE: I began by explaining that it has been borne upon me through observations that it is not possible to judge clearly and correctly in advance the game of salvage. In the last fiscal year the department was very fortunate. It was able to fill every demand made upon it, I am extremely happy to say, and we did so at very little expense. For instance, one decides to advertise in an acute emergency. After having tried all other attempts, one then is driven to go to paid advertising. Last year that was not necessary. At the present moment we are faced with an acute shortage of waste paper. We have had inestimable benefit from certain generous sponsors. Since some paper mills may be forced to close down I am now considering with the officials of my department and with the other departments of government in close touch with the paper industry the getting out of a campaign of advertising to cost somewhere around $60,000. Despite all the assistance we have had we are not satisfied that we have safeguarded the position sufficiently.
In order to make sure we are going to do some advertising. That will come, of course, out of the $100,000.


Alfred Henry Bence: Could the minister give us an indication of the amount of revenue that was obtained last year as a result of the salvage campaign?
Mr. LaFLECHE: I must explain that the department cannot claim that all the results of its salvage campaigns are reported to the department, because while the urge to save secondary materials or salvage materials may be very great, yet the persons who save and turn in waste materials may do so through channels which do not report. The department does not say that they must turn in their salvage to certain people or certain firms. What the department does is to promote and bring the Canadian public to the point of finding the materials which we absolutely need if we are to carry on our full war effort. Nevertheless we have in dollars a figure well over $3,000,000 in value.


Alfred Henry Bence: For what period?
Mr. LaFLECHE: Since May 1, 1941. That figure comes up only to last year. We know the value of salvage materials is much greater than that, but those reports were not made to the department. When the country needs certain salvage material what we try to do is to see that the scrap iron is made available to the'mills. We want the waste paper turned in to the mills. We think about one-half of the actual salvage resulting from our campaigns come to us in the form of reports.


Alfred Henry Bence: Was there a complete change made in the administrative set-up of the salvage campaign last year?
Mr. LaFLECHE: No. I am afraid I am taking the hon. member's question on too wide a basis. There has been no revolutionary change. There have been betterments; there have been extensions of organization where necessary adjustments were possible. Things have gone on very much the same. It is true the machine has run better because the employees and officials know their job better than they did before. Perhaps my hon. friend would ask a more precise question.


Alfred Henry Bence: The reason I ask that question is this: in the city of Saskatoon from which I come we had an able and active association in charge of salvage. Last year at some time or another the officials came along and changed it, took it away from them and changed what I think was the whole set-up as far as salvage in Saskatoon was
231S

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concerned. I should like to know why that was done in view of the fact that this organization had charge of it from the beginning. It was the only organization that was prepared to take it over from the beginning. I should like to know whether the same attitude was taken in other communities where organizations had taken on salvage campaigns and had made a success of it. Did the administration or administrative officials come along and change the whole set-up?
Mr. LaFLECHE: I understand that the case mentioned by my hon. friend was that of a voluntary committee and that there were changes; but the changes came from within the membership of the voluntary committee. My hon. friend shakes his head.


Alfred Henry Bence: I know they did not.
Mr. LaFLECHE: I can only repeat the instructions I am given. I would remind the hon. gentleman that we have something like 1,800 of these committees scattered throughout Canada, and it would take a formidable memory indeed to recall everything that has happened. Perhaps my hon. friend would help me by giving some further information which might be of assistance.	*


Alfred Henry Bence: All I can say is that this association was carrying on efficiently and adequately and that for some reason or another-that is what I wanted to find out- the officials of the department came along and said they were going to take the work away from them. Actually the fact is that when this thing was established in the first place this was the only association prepared to go in and do the work. They did an adequate job, and I thought they were treated very unfairly.
Mr. LaFLECHE: I am sure my hon. friend will not mind if I say I hope he is mistaken. I do not get the story that way at all; I understand that the original chairman-moved from the city and that he was replaced. That is what I am told. However, if my hon. friend would be good enough to give me further information I shall look into the matter in the interests of all concerned.


Alfred Henry Bence: I shall be glad to do so.


Mr. MacINNIS:: The minister is discussing the matter of salvage, and as I came in I thought I heard him say there was a great need for the collection of waste paper. Quite recently it was drawn to my attention that there has been a tremendous waste of paper at the Barriefield barracks near Kingston, and I would suggest that the minister look into the matter. The person who brought the situation to my attention was disturbed, in view of the fact that the government was
[Mr. Bence.}
spending a certain amount of money in advertising the need for saving waste paper.. I would hesitate to say now the quantity that I was told was being destroyed every day at this point, but it was very considerable. I suggest that the minister look into this matter, and also into the waste that may be going on at other military camps.
Mr. LaFLECHE: I am very glad the hon. gentleman has brought this to my attention. The salvage division of my department deals with these matters through the army disposal board, and we have a committee which looks after these things. I shall look into the situation mentioned by the hon. member.


Mr. REID:: I wonder if paper salvage is still going on. Is the salvage division still collecting waste paper?
Mr. LaFLECHE: Yes.


Thomas Reid: I do not wish to criticize the minister at all, but I should like to show him something I brought back with me from New Westminster, which has caused me a great deal of concern. The people out there are asking why we should be trying to conserve paper on the one hand, while on the other hand people who cannot get enough paper for their requirements are asked to display large posters such as the one I am holding up. The person who gave me this said, "The government will have to supply me with a new wall on which to hang it." Here is a paper poster which would cost probably fifty cents; these are sent out from Ottawa by the ton, no doubt. I should like the minister to look into this matter, though I realize that it does not come under his department. It seems to me, however, that his efforts in regard to salvage are being sabotaged, at least as far as paper is concerned.
My particular reason for rising at this time is that I have found that many departments here in Ottawa pay no attention at all to the criticism made by a member of parliament outside the House of Commons. I feel so keenly about this matter that I made up my mind that when the proper time came I would bring it to the attention of the appropriate minister in the hope that the officials responsible for the production and distribution of posters of this kind might be told that there is a scarcity of paper, and that they should consider the cost of preparing and sending out things of this kind. I feel sure this poster would weigh almost a pound. The man who gave it to me has had his own paper supply cut by some twenty-five per cent. He said, "I cannot obtain paper; I am put on a quota; yet I am asked to place a poster like this on my wall." He gave me at least half a dozen

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of these posters, though they were not all the same size. The minister is not to blame, of course, but I want to show that his efforts in regard to paper salvage are being sabotaged by other government departments which are not giving him the cooperation I think he should have.
Mr. LaFLECHE: I have taken note of the advertisement in question, though of course it does not come under my department. This deals with a very difficult question, in regard to which the interest of Canadians must be aroused without fail. As regards the departments in Ottawa, I am very happy to say that they have gone in for a combined, well coordinated, well backed up waste-paper salvage campaign. I am in touch with a committee on which each department is represented, and as far as salvage is concerned I think the results will be better this spring than at any time in the past.


Thomas Reid: I can send them these posters; I have plenty of them.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Has the minister been given full cooperation by the various manufacturing plants throughout the country? I ask this question because I had occasion to bring to the attention of the management of one organization the fact that several tons of paper in the form of cartons and things like that were being burned every day or so. That was not a very good example for the men in the plant. As soon as the situation was made known to the management the matter was attended to and the paper saved. I wonder if there is close cooperation between the salvage branch and the various manufacturing concerns in Canada so that much of the paper that has been destroyed in the past may be saved in future.
Mr. LaFLECHE: I have mentioned already the salvage operations being conducted by the various departments of government. Within the last months the usual collections of waste paper have been more than doubled, and any increase of one hundred per cent is a good increase. Through the Canadian Manufacturers' Association, boards of trade, chambers of commerce, trade papers and so on we hope within a short time to increase the usual tonnage of waste paper collected throughout Canada by about 150 per cent. I must say that we have the finest of cooperation from the associations I have just mentioned. For instance, a trade paper called the "Drug Merchandiser" has shown the greatest of generosity. They have appealed to the druggists of Canada to make certain to save the waste material-waste paper-and turn it into the regular trade channels, so that 100-146
at an early date it will reach the paper mills of Canada. I must say I have taken the responsibility, toward another department, to see that the salvage division find an average of 20,000 tons of waste paper monthly.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I
understand that different committees have had difficulty in trying to find out whether the department in Ottawa wished them to collect bottles. They started in to collect, and then they received a letter on January 15, 1943, stating that the sale was off. Then they got another on March 5, 1943 encouraging them to buy again. Bottle dealers, wine dealers and distillers were to agree among themselves as to the method of procedure, and maximum prices to prevail. But the salvage committees have had no direction at all in respect of some lines of salvage collection. One day they are told to do one thing, and the next day they are told to cancel that order. Would the minister tell us how things stand in respect of paper prices, and the position as to rags and bottles?
Mr. LaFLECHE: I think I must suggest to my hon. friend that he has not been fully informed, or that he has received information from a person who has not been fully informed. I hold before me a bulletin-


Gordon Knapman Fraser: What date is it?
Mr. LaFLECHE: This is bulletin No. 81 respecting salvage, and it is dated March 20, 1944. I suggest that a branch of this kind cannot get out 81 circular letters, very closely printed, and containing a great deal of information, and at -the same time accept the statement that local committees are not well informed.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Perhaps I should have put my question another way. I have followed this matter of salvage collection very closely. Prices were supposed to have been given some time ago in regard to bottles. I took the matter up with the head of the salvage department at that time-I forget his name, but I have it in my office. Three or four weeks after that some men came to see me, here in the House of Commons, and1 I had a talk with them in regard to bottles. At that time the people were told to collect them. Collections were made, and following that they found there was no sale for what they had collected. The result was that they had to break the bottles, and sell them as broken glass, at so much a ton. The women who collected were very careful to pack the bottles properly, and to sort them, and they were very much disappointed when they had to sell them as broken glass.



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Mr. LaFLECHE: I sympathize with those ladies.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: They have done a fine job.
Mr. LaFLECHE: I fully agree with that. But may I say that the salvage division of my department does not control supply and demand. That division moves when required, and moves quickly and well. When the director of salvage is informed by another department that bottles are needed, or that other materials are in demand, he moves. I understand that not for about a year has any request issued from the salvage division asking the public to save and to turn in bottles.
Quite apart from that, I recall hearing it said by manufacturers of glass containers that at one time not very long ago-perhaps two years ago-there was a great demand for bottles. They started a campaign to reclaim second-hand bottles. Then-and . I do not know why-the story goes that there was a great supply of them, with the result that they ceased collecting second-hand bottles, and began to use the new bottles which were available.
Before dealing harshly in one's thoughts with the salvage division, I believe one must keep in mind that they act only when they are told that a supply is needed. Then, of course, they must pass on that information to local salvage committees. I must say to my hon. friend that I think the branch does a very good job. I have heard many commendations of the work it has done, and I think much credit is due it. I hope the hon. member will follow me in that respect.


Alfred Henry Bence: Who is the present director in charge of salvage?
Mr. LaFLECHE: Mr. Charles Laferle.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am happy to say that the minister has in Mr. Charles Laferle a capable man at the head of the branch. He was one of the chief officials, and one of the most successful officials of one of the largest businesses in Toronto. I, for one, was surprised that his firm allowed him to come here to help. However, I am glad they did, because the figures given by the minister show that he has obtained from salvage about S3,000,000 which would have been lost otherwise. That has been collected through an expenditure of a comparatively small sum of money supplied by the government. I believe that the salvage branch, under the minister's direction, deserves unstinted credit.


Alfred Henry Bence: Who was the immediate predecessor of Mr. Laferle?
Mr. LaFLECHE: Mr. William Knightley.


Alfred Henry Bence: Is Mr. Knightley in the
employ of the department?
Mr. LaFLECHE: No, he is not. He returned to the Department of Transport some considerable time ago.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I might add that Canada owes a debt of gratitude to that brave little island of Malta in the Mediterranean, where Mr. Laferle was bom, for allowing him to migrate from that part to this part of the empire.


Mr. PERLEY:: I should like to add a word of praise in respect of local voluntary committees which have been doing this work for the last two or three years. There is a feeling now that they are not receiving proper cooperation from the authorities in Ottawa. For instance, after doing all the work of gathering rubber, paper and bottles they have had difficulty in getting facilities for shipping. I would draw to the minister's attention the fact that in a great many centres along the main line of the Canadian Pacific railway- and I refer to that line in particular-there are to-day many piles of scrap metal. Local committees are having difficulty in shipping it. Have any steps been taken to clear up those piles? At practically every loading platform throughout western Canada you will find this scrap iron piled, either in the road or on the platform. When a farmer comes to ship grain he finds this stuff in the way. Has any effort been made to get these piles cleaned up and out of the country?
Mr. LaFLECHE: I am glad to join with the hon. member in working for the fanner. Perhaps he may not have thought of it, but there are easterners who have great regard for the farmer. We have excellent farmers in the east, although our soil has grown many more crops than the soil of the west.


Ernest Edward Perley: It has not worn out as many implements.
Mr. LaFLECHE: My hearing is not sufficiently good to permit me to hear the remark of my hon. friend. I want to say that action has been taken to clear up the situation he mentions. We have been at the steel controller, shall I say, with regard to this particular matter, and I shall bring it to his attention again. I understand that the situation is greatly improved and that there is not a vast quantity left.


Ernest Edward Perley: I wish the minister would take a trip through the west.
Mr. LaFLECHE: I wish I could go there now.

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Gordon Knapman Fraser: Is there any chance of the salvage department stabilizing the prices of the different salvaged goods in order that the people who collect these goods will not lose everything? Sometimes it costs a lot of money to do the collecting.
Mr. LaFLECHE: The matter -mentioned by the hon. member has received attention and will receive further attention to the end that everything possible may be done to stabilize prices.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The hon. member for Qu'Appelle mentioned iron and steel. Is there a demand for those metals now?
Mr. LaFLECHE: What is left of the metal mentioned by the hon. member for Qu'Appelle is in reserve stock-piles which are available to the steel controller. As I said a moment ago, this matter has been brought to his attention again.


Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: I have a complaint to make with regard to the salvage and marketing of bottles in Nova Scotia. I think we are all in sympathy with the salvaging of as much material as is possible, but it is disconcerting to find that in certain instances efforts to salvage are blocked. The complaint I have to make is in connection with a man in Nova Scotia who for years purchased empty bottles to ship to the brewers of Ontario and Quebec. Administration order A-505 of December 14, 1942, was promulgated by the administration. It provides that bottles shall not be shipped out of Nova Scotia except with the permission in writing of the chief commissioner of the Nova Scotia liquor commission. The chief commissioner of the Nova Scotia liquor commission requires that all bottles shall pass through certain channels.
This individual who has been in this business for a number of years is blocked in his efforts to salvage bottles. Lately he has had inquiries from breweries in upper Canada who wish to purchase bottles and are ready to enter into contracts over a period of years. But he cannot sell bottles collected in Nova Scotia to the better market in central Canada because of order A-505. I should like an explanation from the minister as to why there should be interference with the ordinary course of trade. Salvage undertakings should be facilitated, and yet this man is not able to market what he collects.
Mr. LaFLECHE: The order mentioned by the hon. member is a wartime prices and trade board order. I shall take this matter up 100-146i
with the board. They are in a much closer position to the actual market than is the salvage division of my department. The salvage division of the Department of National War Services starts or stops the flow of materials upon hearing from the wartime prices and trade board that a certain material is in short supply. The wartime prices and trade board has the power to order; the salvage division has no such power. Our work is carried on almost entirely by voluntary workers. I shall undertake to look into the problem to-morrow and speak to my hon. friend as soon as I get any information.


Mr. POULIOT:: I do my best to encourage salvage operations. A few weeks ago the chief clerk of the committees wrote to me asking what should be done with a number of files that filled one filing cabinet in his office. I wanted to know what they were, and he told me that these files were collected by me when I was chairman of the civil service committee in 1938. I told him that at the time they had been quite useful because we had brought in a unanimous report, but that since nothing was done to implement that report he could give the files to the salvage. It should help a little bit.
There are many things that can be said about salvage. At one time we had some legitimate salvage in connection with shaving-cream and toothpaste tubes. We were told that the metal used in these containers was very helpful to the war effort and we had to turn in an old tube before we could get a new one. However, this restriction was removed and the people can now get new tubes without turning in any old ones. They can throw the old ones in their waste-paper baskets. This is not the right kind of salvage. The first system was the proper one; now we just have waste. There are a number of things I could enumerate in connection with which there is waste. I cannot understand why such things are done. I can understand it the less because those who decide matters of salvage sit in the most magnificent building we have in this country, the new supreme court building, which was put up to house the supreme court and the chief justice of the land. I have said it before and I repeat it again that in no other country of the world would you see the chief justice of the country and the other judges of the supreme court sitting in a bam like they do in Canada, while dollar a year men who look after salvage are housed in our most magnificent office building, costing several million dollars, with lofty ceilings and brass doors just as heavy as the gates of Gaza that Samson carried on his back. The doors of the supreme court building are so heavy

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that even Samson could not carry them away. I am so sorry that hon. members laugh. We should weep about it because there is no sense in it at all, and I say to my hon. friend the member for Winnipeg South Centre that I am fighting his cause now because I am sure that he would not want to sit as a judge of the supreme court in an old barn. In no other country of the world would such quarters be tolerated for our supreme court as the present building where they are housed. Think of the millions of dollars spent on that other magnificent building which was put up for the express purpose of housing the supreme court, and that is now used by the salvage men, looking after ash-cans! It is an incredible situation. Mark Twain would have written something marvellous about it. It is a thing that hardly anybody outside Ottawa would believe, but we in Ottawa know it is a fact. Imagine a lawyer from outside coming to Ottawa and saying to a taxi driver, "I want to go to the supreme court." He is driven to that awful building that now houses the supreme court, and then he sees another building, a magnificent one, and asks the taxi driver what that is for, and the taxi driver tells him "Oh, that is the salvage building."
It is a waste of money, having such a magnificent building with brass doors and lofty ceilings to be used for ash-cans, and I hope hon. members will join with me in protest against such a ridiculous state of affairs. Who is responsible for it? Here we are tonight listening to talk about salvage. Now is the time that we should honour the bench as it deserves to be honoured and see that our supreme court is housed in the temple of justice, in a building befitting the dignity of the court. That is why we spent money for such a magnificent building. If at the time we were asked to vote such a tremendous amount of money for the supreme court, would anyone have agreed to vote the money if they had been told that the building was to be used for garbage, while the judges are in the ash-can and the doghouse.
The other day the Minister of Justice said that conditions were not as bad as I have described them. Well, an official paper has been published. It is the report of the inspector of the health department, and he goes much farther than I do. He described things as they were. I can say that what I have done I have done at the request of a judge of the supreme court who is now dead, and of another judge now living, whose name I shall not mention, but who can corroborate what I have said.
I have had occasion several times to use the most valuable books that are to be found in the supreme court library. There are
[Mr. Pouliot.1
treasures in that library that cannot be found anywhere else. If they were destroyed by fire it would be a national loss, just as if the archives were destroyed by fire. But the archives are housed in a fireproof building, while these most valuable books in the supreme court library are in that old building on Wellington street, exposed to all hazards of fire, when there is a fireproof library in the new supreme court building which now serves for salvage. Is there any sense in that? I hope that the government will reconsider the matter and that before the end of this session the salvage branch will be moved into the building that is at present occupied by the supreme court and the exchequer court, and that the supreme court and the exchequer court will take possession of their own quarters in that new building the cornerstone of which was laid by Her Majesty the Queen. What has been done up until now is ridiculous, but there is always time to do better, and I hope that the necessary change will be made.
The other day I was amazed when I read in a report of a committee of this house that parliament had fallen in public respect. It is because of things like this of which I have been speaking to-night that public respect for parliament, respect for the bench and for our democratic institutions, has fallen. If the Canadian taxpayer carries the burden of heavy taxation for the construction of that magnificent building which was erected to house the supreme court, he does so because that building was erected to honour the bench. He does so to show the respect that every Canadian citizen has for the bench. But if the present situation is not changed it will contribute in no small way to destroy those feelings in the hearts of our fellow citizens.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Corps of (civilian) Canadian Fire-Fighters for United Kingdom, $744,905.
Alfred Henry Bence: I want to say a word on this item, particularly in view of the fact that the city from which I come has made a good contribution to 'this corps. First I would remind the minister of the statement that he made last year when speaking in this house on July 22, he is reported at page 5244 of Hansard as follows:
But may I say that Canada will never forget the fact that these men volunteered for a service considered then to be as dangerous as that performed by any human being in the British isles, whether in uniform or not.
Prefacing my remarks by that quotation, I would suggest to the minister and to the administration that there are two or three matters in connection with the rehabilitation

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of these men which should receive the serious consideration of the government. In the first place, the impression got abroad last year that the fire-fighters were going to be in exactly the same position as the returned men of the armed services. I will grant that that was not quite borne out by any suggestion made by the minister in his statement, except when he stated that "if members of this corps are injured or killed, they or their dependents receive the identical benefits as paid to the members of the armed forces in similar circumstances". That statement led a lot of these men to reach the conclusion that they were being put in exactly the same position with respect to all benefits that the armed services had, and I must confess that from a cursory examination of the statement I came to the same conclusion. But as far as rehabilitation is concerned there are three respects in which the fire fighter is treated differently from the man who has been retired from the armed services. In many ways these men have made as big a contribution as have many men in the armed services, and certainly have entered into a more hazardous occupation than some members of the armed services who are entitled to these benefits to which I wish to refer.
In the first place, I suggest to the minister, the fire-fighter who has been retired from the force should be entitled to the same benefit with respect to thirty days with pay, which he gets now; but in addition to that he should get, what the men of the armed services, get a rehabilitation grant of one month's pay. I suggest also that some recognition should be given to him of the fact that he has performed this service in a theatre of war, much along the lines of the type of recognition given to the returned man when he is awarded his service badge. In addition to that, it seems to me that if the man or his dependents are entitled to the identical benefits that are paid to the dependents of men of the armed forces, certainly he should be put in the same position when he is retired from the force as is a man in the armed services with respect to free hospital, doctor and dentist bills for a period of one year. In view of the fact that the service is so similar in many ways to the type of service which has been performed by men who are now returned, I suggest that the minister should put the fire-fighter in the same position, in view of the contribution he has made and the risk he has taken. I hope the minister will make a comment on that, and at the same time will explain to the committee the method which is used in providing the returned fire-fighter with rehabilitation benefits, such as they are, and the provisions under which his dependents are paid pensions in the event of his death in the service. I
do not know whether they come under the provisions of the Pension Act, but I am sure the minister will be in a position to enlighten us.
Mr. LaFLECHE: I am very happy to hear the sympathetic manner in which the hon. member for Saskatoon City has approached this subject. I myself wish to do everything I possibly can for the members of the civilian Canadian fire-fighters corps, but in one word in their title I have found very considerable difficulty; they are officially known as the "Civilian" Corps of Canadian Fire Fighters for Service in Great Britain.
With regard to the three points raised by my hon. friend, we do give to members of the corps who are retired or discharged the thirty days' leave. I think my hon. friend knows that. It is possible, and I believe it is the case, that the regulations covering the discharge of men from the armed forces may have changed in that respect recently. I am not quite certain, but officials of the department are looking into that.
I think I can save a great deal of time and speak as forcibly as one can and cover the entire ground when I say that my department is trying at this moment to make certain that members of the fire-fighters corps receive benefits identical with those granted to men who are discharged from the armed forces. For instance, and to illustrate the difficult and peculiar position in which fire-fighters find themselves: the hon. member for Saskatoon City mentioned recognition; I take it that he meant a service ribbon.


Alfred Henry Bence: Well, some kind of acknowledgment.
Mr. LaFLECHE: Quite right. I have wanted and I have tried to get them a service medal. But they are not a military' corps. Decorations and medals, one knows well, come from the crown, from the sovereign, and conditions in regard to the award of medals and decorations are surrounded, we all know, with many safeguards and with a keen eye, I suppose, both to tradition and to the future. I believe we are on the verge of getting some recognition of this kind for these men, in the form of the right to wear service chevrons on their tunic sleeve. That seems to be promising, though I hope the boys will not feel too badly if it does not come through, but we have had some encouragement in that respect.
I have tried to answer the questions put by my hon. friend.


Alfred Henry Bence: Would the minister not consider the granting of some type of badge or button which might be exclusive to the firefighter, but which he would be able to wear,

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and which would indicate to other people that he has seen service really in a theatre of war during this war?
Mr. LaFLECHE: Yes; many thanks for the suggestion. It is difficult, though, for any minister to give an answer to a question just 'ike that. There will always be some connection between whatever may be suggested and vhat is in practice in other respects, but I am rery much sold upon the merit of giving these men some tangible form of recognition; I think it is coming to them. We all remember that when they first went to Great Britain it appeared that their duties would oftentimes be more dangerous than those of the armed forces.


Alfred Henry Bence: Very hazardous.
Mr. LaFLECHE: Since, of course, our land army or part of it has moved off to active war fronts, perhaps that comparison is not as favourable to the fire-fighters as it used to be. Nevertheless, there is very little to choose when under bombs, whether they come from cannon or from aircraft.


Alfred Henry Bence: Does the minister express an opinion in connection with the matter of free hospitalization, dental and medical care for a year after discharge, in the same maimer as is provided for members of the armed forces?
Mr. LaFLECHE: I am still trying to get every one of these things. Last year, when I said "identical benefits under the Pension Act", I meant, of course, the stated amounts that one finds or used to find in the schedule of the Pension Act. That applies as it did then.
Progress reported.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Tuesday, April 25, 1944