1944-04-28

Mr. SAMUEL FACTOR (Spadina):: I wish to present the third and final report of the special committee appointed to consider the Dominion Elections Act, 1938, in relation to the taking of the vote of the armed services. May I suggest that the reading of this report be dispensed with, as both the report and the schedule will appear in Votes and Proceedings. The report itself is short, but the schedule is quite a lengthy document.


Mr. GRAYDON:: I think we can come to an agreement with respect to that, provided 100-153i
that no concurrence is moved to-day and hon. members in the meantime will have an opportunity of reading the documents.


Samuel Factor: There will be no concurrence asked for to-day.


Mr. SPEAKER:: It will appear in Votes
and Proceedings.



PRIVATE BILL


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 88, respecting the Kettle Valley Railway Company.-Mr. Stirling.


Hon. J. L. RALSTON (Acting Prime Minister):: I should like to make a brief statement with regard to the matter of housing which is forecast in the speech from the throne. An announcement will be made in due course regarding the scope and the purpose of the programme, but I want to say now that it is proposed that the measure will be wide enough to include special provision for houses which may be required to accommodate dependents of members of the forces for whom housing accommodation is not otherwise available. It is expected that this particular class of house will be dealt with along the lines of the procedure adopted concerning houses built under the Wartime Housing Act, certain of which were, in special instances, allotted to city and municipal authorities to be administered by them for the relief of dependents of members of the forces urgently in need of housing accommodation.



SITUATION IN TORONTO AND ELSEWHERE-MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT UNDEB STANDING ORDER 31

Mr. T. L. CHURCH (Broadview):: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to move the adjournment of the house. It is the same motion as the one I asked leave to move yesterday.


Thomas Vien: The hon. member yesterday sent me a notice of his motion, which reads as follows:
Mr. Church asks leave to move, seconded by Mr. MacNicol, the adjournment of the house for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the urgent need of houses in the city of Toronto and other places in Canada and for the purpose of calling the attention of the government to the urgent need of immediate emergency measures relating thereto.
Naturally, when a motion such as this is before the house, moved by an old parlia-
H ousing

mentarian, and, if I may say so, one of the most highly respected members of the house, I have considered it with care, and with more particular care because of the fact that before such a motion can be put to the house there must be a degree of urgency to justify me in doing so. In the motion before me I cannot find that degree of urgency.
There is a motion on the order paper standing in the name of the hon. member for Broadview which deals with the question of housing, which in the ordinary case, if these notices of motion had been dealt with as they have been in previous sessions of this parliament, might not have been reached. But when the hon. member introduced his motion I recalled that some statement of policy had been made by the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) with regard to the legislation which was to come before the house. On the 24th of April last the Prime Minister, at page 2282 of Hansard, indicated the legislation which would come before the' house, among which he mentioned national housing legislation; and to-day I heard for the first time, as the hon. member has heard, the statement of the acting leader of the government (Mr. Ralston) that legislation with regard to housing will be brought into the house, and it will then be discussed.
I must therefore rule that there is not that degree of urgency in the motion to justify my putting it to the house, because the hon. member will have the opportunity of discussing housing when the bill is before the house.
Again, there is this feature, that the hon. gentleman may bring up the subject of housing op the motion that the house go into committee of supply. I must therefore rule that there is not the degree of urgency in the motion of the hon. gentleman to justify my putting it to the house.


Thomas Langton Church: May I point for the consideration of Your Honour that the rule of anticipation is not relevant here. The rule about asking leave to move the adjournment of the house provides that the subject must not have been discussed in the house before during that session, meaning a substantive motion. There has been no substantive motion on housing. True, questions on housing have been asked, and there was some comment on housing in the debate on the address. The matter I wish to bring before the house is one of very great urgency, and I would point out to Your Honour that I have had no opportunity of bringing it before the house as an amendment to the motion for supply because

we have not had a motion for supply in the last few weeks. Surely this is an emergency question, and might I not have the leave of the house to speak on it for only a few minutes? I suggest that I be given five minutes to point out the urgency of the situation in Toronto. There are only forty-eight hours left in which to take action. That is the reason for the urgency.


Thomas Vien: Personally I have no objection to listening to the hon. member, but if I gave him the opportunity to discuss the matter I could not withhold the same privilege from other hon. members. I have carefully considered the motion of the hon. gentleman and I have come to the conclusion that there is not that urgency in the motion which would justify me in giving leave to discuss 'it.


Thomas Langton Church: May I point out, Mr. Speaker, that you have related this motion of mine to other resolutions. In view of that, I appeal from your ruling.


Thomas Vien: There is no appeal. Under standing order 31 I have already decided in this session, as well as in previous sessions, and my decision is confirmed by most of the Speakers who have had the question before them, that this is not a point of order which the Speaker has to decide. It is a matter for the judgment of the Speaker as to whether there is that degree of urgency which would justify him in putting the motion. I have already dealt with that. As a matter of fact, in order that this point may be made absolutely clear, although I think it has been made clear by the decisions which have been given by Speakers in former parliaments and by myself in this parliament, to remove all doubt the special committee on the revision of the rules has brought in a recommendation dealing with that very point. In the meantime there can be no appeal. It is not a point of order, but a question which lies absolutely within the discretion of the Speaker to decide.


Gordon Graydon: Mr. Speaker, may I be permitted a word on this?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Gordon Graydon: I rise to a question of
privilege.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: The hon. member for Trinity (Mr. Roebuck) has the floor.


Gordon Graydon: I have no objection to
the hon. member preceding me.


Mr. A. W. ROEBUCK (Trinity):: I do not give precedence to anybody in the house in

Housing
my right to speak. Your Honour, I appreciate
that your decision is based on the question as to whether there is urgency-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Thomas Vien: The hon. gentleman must
take his seat. I have given my ruling, and I cannot and do not intend to recede from it. I cannot allow any discussion on my ruling.


Arthur Wentworth Roebuck: There has been discussion.


Gordon Graydon: I thought that the hon. member for Trinity was rising to a question
of privilege and I did not want to precede him. My question of privilege is this. Your Honour mentioned that the committee on the
rules has brought in a recommendation on this point of procedure, which indicates that there is at present a doubt about it. I think therefore under the circumstances allowance should be made for an appeal from your ruling. My second point is that I was surprised that the acting leader of the government made the announcement he did at this time with respect to housing and that it should then have been referred to by Your Honour.


James Layton Ralston: Mr. Speaker, I do not want to follow a bad example. My hon. friend the leader of the opposition, may I suggest, is taking perhaps more than full advantage of a courtesy which has been extended to him from time to time as leader of the opposition to rise and make protests after rulings have been given by the Speaker. That is a courtesy; it is not a right. The remarks my hon. friend has just made, as he knows, are entirely out of order. I rose to make a statement with regard to housing because of the fact that there is in the country and has been for some time past some concern with regard to housing and I thought it might relieve the situation if I indicated one of the subjects which would be dealt with this session in the housing programme of the government. I am open to no censure for having done so. I thought my hon. friend would have appreciated the fact that I had mentioned that housing would be dealt with this session so that he and the house and the country might know that the government had in mind this very important subject.


Thomas Vien: I have always given the leader of the opposition a certain latitude, more than any other member, because of the very fact of his position. But when he says that there is a doubt as to what the rule is, may I say that, if doubt may be in the minds of some, it is not in my mind. I am perfectly clear that the action I have taken is in accord with the decisions of previous Speakers of the house, as it is in accord with my own judgment
But in order that there may be no possible error, that all who read may know, the question has been dealt with by the special committee on the rules of the house.
I may say also that I knew nothing of the statement that was made by the acting leader of the government. Apart altogether from statements which may have been made by him to-day, I had come to the conclusion yesterday to rule the motion out of order, on the ground I have already stated. Therefore there can be no further discussion.



INQUIRY AS TO LEGISLATION

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Thomas Langton Church: I wish to know from the acting Prime Minister whether supply will be called shortly, so that the matter of housing may be raised by the ODposition.


James Layton Ralston: I cannot give my hon. friend an answer at the present time.


Mr. LOCKHART:: Arising out of the statement which the minister made with respect to housing, did I understand him to say that legislation will be enacted shortly? There was a disturbance in the chamber and I could not catch his words.


James Layton Ralston: What I said was that an announcement of the general programme would be made in due course. I rather anticipate that an announcement with regard to the particular subject I dealt with here may not await an announcement of the full programme, but I would not go further than that. I rose to indicate that this particular subject will be specifically dealt with.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: I want to urge upon the minister that he try to deal with this subject independently of other matters.


Thomas Langton Church: People are being thrown out on the street. Surely that is evidence of urgency.



QUESTION OF EXTENSION TO WINNIPEG OF HOUSE CONVERSION PLAN

Mr. S. H. KNOWLES (Winnipeg North Centre):: I have a question to direct to the Minister of Finance, notice of which I sent to his office earlier to-day. In view of the telegram he received from the Winnipeg city council on Tuesday, and in view of his statement a week ago that the matter was being considered, will the minister say whether a
Army-Overseas Service

decision has been reached in the matter of extending to Winnipeg the benefits of the house conversion plan?


Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, when I answered the hon. member before I was not aware that this matter had been referred to the housing coordination committee and that the application had been refused. I asked that it be considered again, along with some other applications, and I do not think that that consideration has been given.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The minister did receive from the Winnipeg city council the telegram to which I referred?


James Lorimer Ilsley: I do not think so. I do not recollect that I did.


Stanley Howard Knowles: It was a rather strong telegram from the Winnipeg city council which was sent to the minister on Tuesday. I received a copy, and I referred to it in a letter which I sent to the minister on Wednesday.


James Lorimer Ilsley: At any rate, I took steps to get it before the housing coordination committee after .my hon. friend asked the question, and it has not been considered yet so far as I know.



CANADIAN ARMY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. S. ROY (Gaspe):: I desire to address a question -to the Minister of National Defence in connection with the important statement made by him yesterday as to the campaign that is going on among the draftees in order to get them to sign for overseas service. Should one understand from that statement that the minister endorses and supports the language or talks of Major General Pearkes which he used speaking to the draftees last Friday at Vernon and Saturday at Victoria and as reported by the press?


James Layton Ralston: I have not seen any report of the remarks to which my hon. friend has referred. General Pearkes is a soldier and a citizen with a very distinguished record and one who lias done magnificent service not only to the army but to Canada generally. I would fully expect that any statement which he actually did make-I do not know whether the reports to which my hon. friend refers reproduce his statements accurately or not-are such as I can endorse.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


Joseph Sasseville Roy: I do not question the gallantry of Major General Pearkes.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Mr.   BOY@: I repeat, Mr. Speaker, that I do not question the gallantry of Major General Pearkes, but what I want to know is whether such language as he used can be used among draftees or not.


Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: Why don't they
join the army?


Joseph Sasseville Roy: And what he said at Vernon and Victoria has been published in every newspaper in Canada.



LABOUR CONFERENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gordon Graydon: I desire to address a question to the Minister of Labour. News dispatches appearing in to-day's press indicate that the Canadian delegation to the international labour organization meeting in Philadelphia yesterday failed to achieve unanimity with respect to a resolution introduced by the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Labour said to be designed to take from the current meeting the authority to define the role of the international labour organization in -the post-war international order. It is stated that one of the Canadian delegation, Percy R. Bengough, indicated his opposition to the proposal, stating that he would fight against its adoption. On April 20. at page 2180 of Hansard, I directed an inquiry to the Prime Minister with respect to this matter, asking him if the government had given consideration to the point -and, if so, what decision had been reached as to Canada's policy. I also asked him if the Canadian delegates to the meeting had received any directions from the government relating to the matter. To this inquiry the Prime Minister stated that no instructions had up to that time been so given. I would like now to ask -the Minister of Labour if the stand taken by his parliamentary assistant was made on the instructions of the government and if the position taken by him at the meeting has the full approval of -the minister and the government.


Hon. HUMPHREY MITCHELL (Minister of Labour):: I would say by way of preface that since the international labour organization is a deliberative assembly like this House of

Wheat
Commons, at times differences of opinions arise in the early stages of discussion and upon particular questions. Further in answer to the leader of the opposition, I would say that the resolution which was submitted in line with the policy expressed by the Canadian government delegate in his speech, far from being a move designed to block or delay progress, is designed to secure the earliest possible and most effective action on four fundamental constitutional problems before the international labour conference. Each of these involves important considerations which cannot, because of the constitution of the organization and the nature of the subject, be finally settled at this conference. The Canadian government delegates fear that the conference might come to an end with no machinery having been set up to continue work on these questions. The resolution provides for consideration of them by the conference now and continued consideration after the conference. They accordingly have proposed that a committee shall sit during and after the conference. Their resolution is intended to help the organization to secure the action which all members of the organization want in the shortest possible time.
The government believe that the I.L.O. has an important role to play and they favour the adoption of a broad declaration of purpose along the lines proposed to the conference by the international labour office. No step must be taken which will interfere with the legitimate and most useful role of the organization, made up of representatives of governments, workers and employers. The main consideration now is to see that the future of the I.L.O. is not jeopardized, and that the
I.L.O. is fitted into its proper place in the emerging international organizations.


Gordon Graydon: I take it from what the minister has said that the stand of the parliamentary assistant was in accordance with government policy.



RATIONING-REPORTED CHANGE IN UNITED STATES ALLOTMENT FOR CANNINQ PURPOSES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. H. BLACKMORE (Lethbridge):: I desire to direct a question to the Minister of Finance. Inasmuch as it is reported the United States government has promised to allow United States people twenty-five pounds of sugar per member of the family for canning purposes in 1944, while Canada is reported to be allowing only ten pounds per member, will the minister make a statement to the house on
Monday or at some early day setting forth the facts of the situation and the reasons therefor?


James Lorimer Ilsley: I shall have to verify the fact that the United States government has promised twenty-five pounds per person. I had no knowledge of that. I would think that when the wartime prices and trade board estimates are before the house would be soon enough to go into the matter, but if the hon. gentleman wants an answer sooner, and I can do it briefly, I will give it to him. I do not think it would be appropriate to make a long statement on the subject on the orders of the day.


John Horne Blackmore: It need not be long. There is a great deal of uncertainty in the country by reasons of these reports. I am merely stating what is reported.


James Lorimer Ilsley: If I can make a short statement I will do so at an early day.



PARTICIPATION CERTIFICATES FOR CROP


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. E. PERLEY (Qu'Appelle):: I desire to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. Can he inform the house whether any payments have yet been made on the producer participation certificates for the crops of 1940-41-42. There are a good many million dollars involved and many producers are waiting to see if they can get the money within the next few days to enable them to buy victory bonds. It would help materially in the sale of bonds if payment could be rushed in the next week.


Hon. J. A. MacKINNON (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: The payments referred to will be made immediately, I believe.


Ernest Edward Perley: In time for the farmers to use the money for the purpose I have indicated?


James Angus MacKinnon: I wish to amplify the statement I have just made The hon. member for Qu'Appelle knows the extent of the actual physical operations involved in getting out these payments to roughly two hundred thousand farmers in western Canada. The facilities of the wheat board have been stretched to the utmost to get the work under way. They are working practically day and night to get the payments out and I am in continuous touch with them urging that they do what I know they are trying their utmost to do, to get the payments out at the earliest possible date. I expect they will start within a day or two, very soon at any rate.
War Appropriation-Labour



WAR APPROPRIATION BILL


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Thursday, April 27, consideration in committee of a resolution to grant to His Majesty certain sums of money for the carrying out of measures consequent upon the existence of a state of war-Mr. Ilsley-Mr. Bradette in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
National selective service programme, $11,002,429.
Humphrey Mitchell: Mr. Chairman, the committee have been given the latest information on the expansion of our armed services and have been brought up to date on the production of the materials and facilities for war.
Man-power is basic to all accomplishments, and my colleagues, I believe, will be the first to agree that the work of the Department of Labour is an integral part of the story of achievement which they have been privileged to tell.
In my opinion the true yardstick of a successful man-power policy is the degree to which the armed forces are mobilized for the job of fighting and the material resources organized for maximum output of munitions, food and all the other things necessary.
At the end of 1943 we had more men and women in our forces than at any previous time in our history. Despite this, production for war was on an unprecedented scale.
It must be realized that as new types of war equipment are required, or as the emphasis of military requirements changes, we must revise our man-power allocation to meet the new needs.
I have before me a table which shows that
5.057.000	or 57 per cent out of a total population of 8,820,000 aged fourteen and over were in the armed forces or at work at December 1, 1943. From the beginning of the war to that date there was a total increase of 1,317,000 or 35 per cent in the number at work or in the armed forces; from January 30 to December 1, 1943, we added 177,000.
Growth in the number of women in employment and in the services has been phenomenal, increasing from 638,000 in August, 1939, to
1.075.000	as of October 1, 1943, a gain of
437.000	in the four years.
The strength of our armed forces has gone up by 759,000 since war began; 124,000 joining the forces in the ten months ended December 1, 1943. The number of workers of both sexes in war industry alone was 1,104,000 at the same date.

We have arrived at our present position by constant adjustment of the selective service machinery capable of putting the most workable plans into effect.
Every effort has been made to bring into our man-power pool the skill and services of all our people. We had, as we know, a breathing space in the early months of the war. We were able to study the problems of man-power control, in which we had little experience on this continent. After the fall of France in the summer of 1940 Canada was looked to as an arsenal of supply in the battle for world freedom. Compulsory calls for military training were introduced. We took stock of our human resources through national registration. We buckled down to the task of augmenting our skilled man-power, notably through the war emergency training programme. Many other measures were adopted to effect a general mobilization of our industrial and man-power assets.
Selective service was introduced through orders in council which became effective on March 23, 1942. Under P.C. 2250 permits to enter certain classes of industries and occupations were required. P.C. 2251 stabilized employment in agriculture. These two orders in council were the basis of operation for two months.
P.C. 5038, passed in June 1942, ordered every person, male or female, regardless of age, to obtain a permit for any employment. There were a few minor exceptions to this broad rule.
In August, 1942, P.C. 7595 replaced P.C. 5038. Under this order:
Permits to seek and enter employment were required;
Employment could be terminated only on service of notice of separation;
Employers had to report vacancies;
A basis for a labour priority schedule was established.
Advertising for help was controlled. Compulsory direction of unemployed persons to employment came into effect.
Provisions were made for reinstatement in employment and supplementary allowances.
These selective service regulations continued in force until January 19, 1943, when the present order in council P.C. 246 took effect. This order consolidated all the selective service regulations relating to civilians, includ-ings those dealing with technical personnel and labour exit permits. Major developments in the regulations since then have been in the way of compulsory transfers of civilians.

War Appropriation-Labour
Selective service also was given authority to direct to any suitable employment persons who had been found unfit for service in the armed forces.
In September last, it was decided that no person employed in a "designated establishment" could leave his employment without the permission in writing of a selective service officer. Correspondingly, the employer could riot discharge an employee in such an establishment without permission. "Designated establishment" means an establishment which has been given an "A" or "B" labour priority rating.
Our major problem on the civilian side is to maintain an adequate working force in the high priority industries. The system of separation notices has done much to maintain man-power in war production.
The rules are not inflexible, being administered in a practical sense as a control rather than a prohibition. Where good reason for termination of employment either by employee or employer is shown, the selective service officer gives approval and an attempt is then made to place the worker in other high priority employment. In order that the local office may do the job assigned to it, it must have a complete picture of both supply and demand. It must have available information regarding all existing vacancies and knowledge of the men and women available to fill those vacancies. It then is in a position to make use of the labour priority schedule and continue the movement upward of available employees into the higher labour priority brackets.
During 1943 some 1,944,026 placements were made by our employment service offices.
The national selective service advisory board was reconstituted in March, 1943. No significant regulations concerning man-power are issued, without approval of this board. It is one of the major instruments for consultation and collaboration between government, employers, workers and farmers.
Next is the national selective service administration board, over which the director of national selective service presides. This board is composed of the associate directors of national selective service and carries the burden of the day-to-day administrative problems. As members of the administration board are also members of the advisory board, coordination of advisory and administrative functions is as complete as possible.
Decentralization has been provided for by the appointment of regional directors and regional national selective service advisory boards in Quebec, Ontario, the prairies and the Pacific. An advisory board for the maritimes will be constituted in due course.
These regional boards are under the chairmanship of the respective regional directors and include the chairmen of the mobilization board and the regional employment committee, the regional employment superintendent, one or more representatives of labour, representatives of the wartime prices and trade board and the Department of Munitions and Supply.
These boards act in an advisory capacity to the regional director in the same wTay that the national board assists the director of national selective service. To these boards I am adding representatives of the Departments of National Defence and Agriculture.
It was extremely fortunate that unemployment insurance was inaugurated in 1940 as this led to the creation of a national employment service. Thus we laid a solid foundation for our war-time man-power machinery. Up to 1940 there was no wholly dominion employment service. Now there are 242 offices in five regions across Canada, staffed by some 5,200 persons.
It is in the nature of things that complaints are given publicity, whereas the praises of our employment service are seldom heard. An incident comes to my mind which suggests the other side of the picture. It concerns the work of the Edmonton office. The American authorities called the manager of the local office one Saturday morning requesting 250 men for a construction camp to leave for Waterways on the following Monday. When the manager inquired what they wanted in the way of men, the reply was to the effect, "You know what we want-superintendent, foremen, carpenters, labourers, cooks, handymen-everything that goes to make up a camp, and we want them on the train Monday morning." When asked whom the men would be working for the reply was, "We don't know yet-you will have to coin a name for the contractor because we haven't let the contract yet or formed any company to handle it." To cut a long story short, the local manager got busy with two radios, sending out calls at intervals on Saturday afternoon and evening. He opened the office at 6 a.m. on Sunday, kept it open all day, opened again at 6 a.m. on Monday, arranged for a special train and at 11 a.m. on that morning the train pulled out for Waterways with 250 men on board.
When I addressed the committee in June last only two compulsory labour transfer orders had been issued and our experience in the problem of compulsory direction was limited. We have now seven orders which are applicable to every male person who has attained the age of sixteen years and has not attained the age of forty-one years. The orders issued to March 15 have involved an examination of the employment of no fewer
War Appropriation-Labour

than 99,453 individuals who have been personally interviewed. There have been 15,359 transfers. It is worth noting that very few of the 15,000 raised any objection and in the extremely few cases which did arise, forty or so in number, there were adjustments without having to resort to prosecution.
I do not mean to imply, Mr. Chairman, that national selective service regulations in general would be of value if there was not some power of enforcement behind them, but it was recognized that time should be given to allow for public education.
As of August 1, 1943, only a small number of prosecutions had been commenced. It was then decided to take a more serious view of instances of non-compliance and contraventions. A vigorous policy of enforcement has since been carried on.
At the present time, the machinery of the department includes an extended enforcement organization operating in our five regional divisions. From July, 1943, to the end of February of this year, 14,765 cases of reported contraventions were investigated and studied. Apart entirely from the number of actual prosecutions much constructive work is being accomplished in the adjustment of complaints and settlement of disputes.
It will be noted that the number of reported contraventions indicates that a very important work is being done in adjusting and settling disputes in the field, in fact over ninety-five per cent of the cases are settled without prosecution. The general acceptance of these wartime rules and restrictions by employer and employee alike indicates a spirit of cooperation on the part of the great majority of those affected.
Steps have been taken to protect the personal liberty of the individual against what might be felt to be an arbitrary ruling of a national selective sendee official. Any man who is directed by a selective service officer to leave his employment for higher priority work, or who is directed to remain in his present employment, or any person who is affected by the ruling, order or direction of a selective sendee officer, has the right of appeal to a court of referees.
These courts were originally established for hearing appeals regarding unemployment insurance benefits. They have an equal number of employer and employee representatives on them, with an impartial chairman, are constituted on a district basis, and are not subject to administrative control. The result is that an appeal is heard by a court whose members are familiar with labour conditions in the district. Here is democracy in action. These courts have heard over 2,500 appeal cases up
[Mr. Mitch ell.l
to the 31st March, 1944. Considering the tremendous volume of work which has fallen upon selective service officers it is of considerable significance that such a small number of their decisions have been appealed. The fact that less than one-third of the total number of appeals heard were allowed, is also strongly indicative of the soundness with which selective service officers have made directions, rulings and orders.
I should like now to deal with the specific branches, particular problems and achievements of the Department of Labour's wartime activities.
Women's division. I am glad to record here the magnificent part played by the women of Canada in all phases of our war effort. They have come forward voluntarily to accept all kinds of work at a rate and with a spirit that is nothing short of spectacular.


Gordon Graydon: They do not always get enough credit for it, though.


Humphrey Mitchell: I would agree with my hon. friend, and would go further. I speak more particularly now of Great Britain, where I have seen how it has worked out, but I do not think we could win this war without the women. I believe the contribution being made by the women of Great Britain and Canada is perhaps a little better than that of the men. I may be criticized for making that statement; nevertheless, I believe it.


Gordon Graydon: Excepting the contribution of the armed forces, you are on pretty safe ground there.


Humphrey Mitchell: This has released much
man-power for the armed forces and for essential industry. As I stated earlier it is estimated that on October 1, 1943, 1,075,000 women were gainfully employed in Canada as compared to
638.000	in August, 1939. In addition, there are over 760,000 women-wives and daughters of farmers-who are supplementing the work of men to maintain the high record of farm production. Each year these women have taken on more and more of the farm work in addition to their work for the home and family, at a great sacrifice of time and energy. It is, of course, in war industry that we have seen the greatest expansion in the employment of women. In June, 1941, there were
40.000	women so employed. By September 30, 1943, that number had increased to 235,000 to keep pace with the heavy and varied demands of war production. This large employment of women in a thousand different industrial plants has created problems of its own in connection with work conditions. The provincial governments, as members know, have jurisdiction over conditions of work for

War Appropriation-Labour
women. Therefore we maintain close cooperation with provincial departments of labour with respect to such matters; and frequent discussions are held with employers concerning adequate welfare service for their employees. As a result many new services and improvements in accommodation have resulted.
Last year it became necessary to make an appeal to women who ordinarily would not be seeking employment. It was recognized that many such women might be able to accept only part-time employment, either part of each day or part of a week. So that employers had to be encouraged to make greater use of the part-time worker. As shortages developed in one area after another the Local Council of Women or the Women's Institute sponsored a campaign appealing to women to take full-time or part-time employment.
No such appeal was made in any area where it was not urgently required. Acute situations developed in Hamilton, Peterborough, Ottawa, Toronto, Halifax, Edmonton, St. Catharines, Welland, and in every instance the required objective was reached. These appeals not only secured many additional full-time workers; they also established the part-time worker as an integral and valuable part of our wartime man-power resources. As a result I am glad to be able to say that in all industrial centres the labour situation was very materially improved.
The entry, within two years, of nearly
200,000	women into war industry alone has had the effect, of course, of creating a shortage of help in other industries and services in which women workers have always predominated. One of these is hospital service. Our hospitals are crowded to their limit and more nurses are being employed than ever before. The non-professional personnel in hospitals has been augmented; and the number of student nurses in training is the largest in our history. Hotels and restaurants have absorbed thousands of new women workers; and we have been hard pressed to supply the labour requirements of laundries and dry cleaning establishments to enable them to take care of the needs of the armed forces as well as of their regular customers.
During the past year, the women's divisions of the employment offices have been augmented to deal more adequately with the great numbers of women passing through them. By means of intensive training, the quality of the work of our officials is steadily improving; and we are, I believe, now giving better service both to the woman applicant and the employer.
One of our problems has been the care of children during the days when their mothers
are at work. Under the terms of agreements with the provinces, day nurseries have been expanded and increased in number to twenty-six. In Ontario the day care of school children outside of school hours has been developed to a considerable degree and units now approved are capable of providing for 1,700 children.
Farm Labour. Last year I pointed out that with fewer people on the farms during each successive year of the war, farmers had pushed the production of vitally needed food to higher levels. This record of our farm people was repeated in 1943. This meant working longer and harder each day. Results have been clearly revealed this past winter in the huge deliveries of live stock and live stock products to markets and processing houses.
Doctor G. S. H. Barton, deputy minister of agriculture, recently stated:
In the course of the last four years Canada has increased the agricultural output by 50 per cent in spite of a reduction of 23 per cent in man-power.
He also gave the following figures with regard to quantities of agricultural products shipped to Great Britain during 1943.
Bacon	
588,000,000	lbs.Cheese	
129,741,000	lbs.Eggs (.powdered)	
34,743,510	lbs.
This exertion by the farm people themselves when under normal circumstances they work so hard, has been the major factor in overcoming the labour shortage. Because of a full recognition of this fact, we derive much satisfaction in that the plans which were put into effect in 1943 provided additional help for them. The results of our efforts to meet the farm man-power shortage were due to the co-operation of every provincial government in Canada working in partnership with the Department of Labour through dominion-provincial farm labour agreements.
The provincial departments of agriculture field staffs with the local farm committees organized by them have been indispensible to the successful execution of the plans of our employment service. These agreements provide for the sharing of expenses on a dollar for dollar basis for active programs in each province to recruit, transport and place help on the farms. Each of these programs is directed by an officer who is a joint employee of both governments.
Early in December last, we called these men and other senior officials to Ottawa for a conference on farm labour. Our purpose was to consider what progress had been made in 1943 and what improvements we could make in respect to the plans for 1944. It was
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clearly evident at this conference that the working arrangements with the Department of Labour were harmonious and satisfactory.
Hon. members from one province will be familiar with the term "emergency farm labour service," in other provinces it is "farm help service," or "farm service force", or "farm labour bureau." These organizations, Mr. Chairman, represent our farm labour agreements in action.
In British Columbia last year more than
11,000	people registered with the dominion-provincial emergency farm labour service to help on farms. On the prairies the dominion-provincial farm labour organizations transferred hundreds of workers from point to point within each province and organized and distributed harvest help.
In Ontario the farm service force, operating under the dominion-provincial agreement reports nearly 100,000 placements of workers on farms in 1943.
The farm labour bureau was formed in Quebec under the agreement for the purpose of tapping every possible source of help and placing this help on farms.
In the maritime provinces the dominion-provincial farm labour organization helped to recruit labour for dairy and live stock farms, organized local sources of help for haying, potato and fruit-picking and distributed this help to those farms where it was most needed.
One of the most valuable features of the farm labour programme has been the financial assistance in transporting workers to their places of employment on farms. The Department of Labour paid the costs of interprovincial movement of labour and shared equally with each province the cost of transporting labour within the province. This plan greatly increased the mobility of farm labour.
During the 1943 season three large-scale excursions of farm workers were organized. Women and girls were recruited in Alberta and transported at public expense for berry picking in the Fraser valley in British Columbia. Early in July over 700 Saskatchewan farmers were brought down to Ontario to help with haying and early harvest. These men remained on Ontario farms until late in August when they returned to Saskatchewan for their own grain harvest. This excursion should be noted by our historians. We have been accustomed to organizing harvest excursions to the prairies, but we have no knowledge of their ever before having been put in reverse. This project was an outstanding success and proved a most valuable source of outside help to the hard-pressed farmers

in Ontario. The Ontario farmers were grateful. They expressed their thanks to the people of the west by acting, not merely by words.
When harvest help was badly needed on the prairies in September, more than 5,000 farmers and farm workers from Ontario offered their services. Over 3,700 actually made the trip. More could have gone, but when our farm labour officials' on the prairies called "Halt, enough", no more applicants were sent out. We have been told that never before has such a good class of man been sent out on a harvest excursion.
We received splendid assistance during the past season from members of the three armed forces. In September and October more than
15,000	men from the army, the air force and the navy helped to take off the crops in all parts of the country. Men from the army, which made up about 11,000 of this number, were supplied in two ways. The majority were granted compassionate leave to return to their own farms or those of immediate relatives. The second source of help from the army was from men supplied through the farm duty plan. Under this plan, which to my knowledge was developed for the first time, men were detailed under military discipline for work on farms. About 2,500 men were made available and worked in all parts of Canada, the majority being employed by farmers in the prairie and maritime provinces.
Last session my colleague the Minister of National Defence for Air stated rather bluntly that he "was not training an air force to go farming". I am glad to say that the natural generosity of his disposition could not for long be suppressed, because he did authorize the issuing of an order providing up to six weeks harvest leave for certain personnel in the air force. A total of 4,326 men were granted leave under this order. All provinces benefited.
Through a special arrangement made by provincial agricultural officials and the federal departments concerned, more than 600 sailors from Deep Brook, Nova Scotia, assisted with apple-picking in the Annapolis valley. This proved a most useful source of help during a critical emergency and the work done by the sailors was greatly appreciated by the apple growers in the valley.
There has been a great deal of discussion about men called from farms to serve in the army. Later on I will table an analysis of postponements in effect at the end of January, 1944, by mobilization divisions and by industries.

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Out of a total of 246,133 for all industries, 142,400, or about 58 per cent, represent the number of farm workers on postponement. This large number of postponements given to farm workers, I am sure hon. members will agree, is tangible proof of the favourable treatment given to agriculture by the mobilization boards.
That our efforts respecting postponements of military service for essential farm workers are appreciated is illustrated in the following unanimous resolution which has recently come to hand:
The Ontario Concentrated Milk Producers' Association wish to state their appreciation of the efforts of the federal selective service in making it possible for experienced farm help to obtain deferment privileges and thus remain on the farms.
The farm people, even with their reduced members, have not remained satisfied with having achieved the greatest food production in our history. Last fall, and early winter, thousands of farmers, farmers' sons, and other farm workers, responded to our appeal for help and moved to the woods, mines, food processing plants, and other essential industries. We appealed only to those who could be spared from their farms during the winter and they were given other work on the understanding they would be released in the spring to return to their farms. This principle was emphasized in extensive publicity conducted as part of the recruiting campaign.
Assistance given by these farmers greatly eased the labour shortage in many industries. Cooperation of provincial field men and local committees made possible a more thorough checking to see that farmers needed on their farms during the winter remained there; also' through this assistance we have a much more complete record of those entering other industries. .
The return of these men to their farms is now practically completed. Because of a late spring season in certain areas some permits were extended, after consultation with provincial departments concerned, until May 1. The vast majority of farm workers have returned to the farms of their own accord. Only in a very few cases was it necessary to follow up on the cancellation of permits.
We shall avail ourselves of every possible source of help for farm work during the coming season. Extensive plans are under discussion with the Department of National Defence. Already special spring farm-leave orders, authorized by the Department of National Defence (army and air), are resulting in a large number of men being granted temporary leave to assist with seeding operations.
Selective service officers stationed at military reception centres now interview all men rejected or discharged from the armed services, with a view to referring suitable men to farms. In industrial plants where lay-offs are occurring, those experienced in agriculture are as a matter of policy laid off second only to those suitable for military service.
During the past few weeks officials of the Department of Labour have visited all the provinces to discuss the renewal of dominion-provincial farm labour agreements. Every province is anxious to continue agreements and confidence seems high in the provinces that this year's problems will be handled effectively. We feel that the successful experience of 1943 which was really our pioneer year in an all-Canada programme to meet the farm labour problem will enable us to do a better job in 1944.
Lumbering and Logging Employment. For some time, it will be recalled, there has been a pronounced labour shortage in the lumbering and logging industry. The situation has been met in various ways.
As usual, the industry, east of the Rockies, drew the major portion of its labour in the peak winter season from agricultural workers. But west of the Rockies, where a more highly skilled type of labour is called for, most of the woods labour had to be secured from other sources. Labour shortages were met by men transferred from agriculture and from other industries; by men granted special leave from the army; by postponement of military service; by the employment of enemy aliens, and prisoners of war and conscientious objectors.
Transfers from less essential industries have been effected both on a voluntary basis and as a result of compulsory employment transfer orders.
To March 15, 1944, 869 workers were transferred to lumbering and logging by such orders.	.
Over a year ago the Department of National Defence arranged to grant three months' leave of absence to army personnel having previous logging and lumbering experience in British Columbia, to return to such employment in that province. The duration of the leave was subsequently extended to six months and leave is now granted for this period and is subject to renewal for further six months' periods at the discretion of military authorities.
Interned aliens have been used on reforestation and fire control work in Ontario and British Columbia; Japanese have been engaged on actual logging and lumbering operations in Ontario and in the interior of British Columbia; sendees of prisoners of war have been utilized in labour camps. They
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have been used extensively in Ontario, Quebec, and in the west, in logging and lumbering operations and also in fuel wood cutting.
Conscientious objectors have also been directed into logging and lumbering operations.
Through the steps mentioned and as the result of an extensive campaign undertaken by national selective service in conjunction with the provincial government officials and the industry a greater number of men were employed in woods operations since the end of November than a year ago.
Because of the many small operators and the fact that farm workers may enter employment in the woods for less than sixty days without a permit, it is difficult to obtain an exact record of the total number of men employed in the industry at any given time. However, we know from the records of the local employment and selective service offices that, during the period from October to December 1943, there were over 7,000 more placements than last year. During the first five weeks of this year, there have been some
6,000	more placements than in the corresponding period of 1943.
The reports we have received from the pulp-wood committee of the pulp and paper industry of Canada further substantiate the conclusion that there are more workers engaged in woods this year than last.. East of the Rockies there were nearly 9,000 more men employed on February 26 of this year than at the same time last year.
In the fall of 1943 the timber control estimated that lumber production for the year 1944 would be about 5 per cent less than in 1943. In view of war demands, this was a serious situation. It now appears that Canadian lumber production this year will equal the 4,630,000,000 feet produced in 1943. A similar improvement has taken place in respect to pulpwood production. Whereas a decrease in production as compared with the previous cutting season had been anticipated, this winter's production will record an increase of 3 per cent to 4 per cent.
In the fuel wood branch of woods operations, the situation has been satisfactory. Sufficient fuel- wood has been cut to satisfy the needs. The mild weather was an easing factor.
Shiploading Operations-Halifax. In the last year we have met the increasing demands made at Halifax on our shiploading facilities. It had become increasingly apparent that the turn-round period of ships would have to be shortened to keep pace with the rising tempo of ship movements. It was realized that a speed-up in loading would in effect amount to an increase in the actual number of ships
[Mr. Mitchell.!
available. Following an investigation made in 1942 a wartime reorganization plan was put into effect in May of that year, and has been adjusted and improved as occasion necessitated. A controller of loading operations was appointed vested with complete authority to coordinate the activities of all agencies directly or indirectly engaged in shiploading.
A new method of hiring longshoremen, through a central despatching agency, was put into effect regularizing the method of hiring and providing a permanent gang system.
But that could not of itself overcome a constant over-all shortage of men caused by enlistments and the drift to war industries. Therefore selective service regulations were amended to provide for the return to the docks of ex-longshoremen, for the "freezing" of the existing personnel, and for .making other men available by specific directed transfer to longshore work.
A longshoremen's reserve pool was then set up, each man required to report to any longshore work to which he was dispatched, or to any other type of work in Halifax to which he might be directed, or to longshore work in any other port in Nova Scotia or New Brunswick. Provision was made for all longshoremen registered at the dispatching agency and in the reserve pool to receive a guaranteed minimum weekly wage based on a forty-eight hour working week at daytime rates.
By arrangement with the Minister of Transport, bunkhouse accommodation was secured for five hundred men who were recruited by national selective service and a staff engaged under the direction of a pool superintendent.
Night work has hitherto been very unpopular ; but by setting up a system of regular gangs and their rotation as between day and night work, an increase in night work has been obtained. This will increase with the opening shortly of a Government operated canteen at the north-end terminals provided particularly for night workers.
The supply of labour has been stabilized; there is a considerable improvement in the system of hiring; and the previous wasteful turnover of labour has been reduced.
By a recent arrangement with the Department of National Defence, port companies are to be useed at peak-load periods when civilian labour supply is insufficient.
The situation is under constant review, of course, as conditions are not static.
Prisoners of war and Japanese.-A special problem handled by the department is that of utilizing the labour of prisoners of war, on

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essential work projects outside internment camps. This has been chiefly in fuel wood, pulpwood, and lumbering operations, and to a lesser extent, in agriculture. Other projects using prisoners of war labour include a tannery and a company cutting peat fuel.
There were approximately 4,117 prisoners of war working on such projects outside internment camps at March 9. The prisoners employed in woods operations are, for the most part, working in groups of forty to sixty men in camps of private operators. Guards on the projects have been chiefly provided by the veterans' guard.
A number of prisoners of the civilian type such as German merchant seamen have been individually placed with farmers. It is the intention to extend the use of prisoners in agricultural work during the course of the current year so far as reasonably possible, consistent with security requirements.
Employers have, in general, been well satisfied with the work of the prisoners, and in many instances have later asked for an increased number.
The major administrative problem involved in putting prisoners to work is that of security. Where the percentage of guards in relation to prisoners is high, there is nothing gained in the productive use of man-power. Some risks as to escapes have therefore to be accepted in putting prisoners to work. Escapes have, however, been few in number and in every instance, the prisoners have been picked up within a short time.
The policy followed by the department, in close cooperation with the Department of National Defence, is one of careful selection of prisoners coupled with the use of sufficient guards to ensure discipline and control and to maintain a guard patrol on the project.
The hon. member for York West (Mr. Adamson) inquired some time ago as to the base rates paid to prisoners of war and the regulations under the Geneva convention which cover this.
Prisoners of war are paid under "Convention relative to the treatment of prisoners of war," which was concluded at Geneva on July 27,1929.
After reference to the imperial prisoners of war committee the rates paid to prisoners of war in Canada were fixed by order in council in accordance with chapter 5, article 34, of this convention.
The Canadian rate is 50 cents per day; the United States rate is 80 cents per day; the British rate is one shilling per day.
The British Columbia security commission, which handled evacuation of 21,000 Japanese nationals and Japanese-Canadians in 1941, was
dissolved early in 1943, and the powers of the commission reverted to the Minister of Labour acting through a commissioner stationed on the ground.
The labour department's objective for 1943 was to place the employable men and women in useful work where they were most needed in Canada, to provide adequate welfare for the unemployables, and to provide at least a minimum Canadian education for the children.
Special emphasis has been placed on reallocation of Japanese, both singly and in family groups, to areas where essential industries have urgent labour shortages.
By the end of 1943, there w'ere 4,000 Japanese in self-supporting employment in British Columbia (including women and children), 4,700 on the prairies, and 3,000 in eastern Canada, these totals in each case including a few hundred who were there prior to Pearl Harbor. Thus approximately one-half of the Japanese in Canada were supporting themselves at useful labour in various parts of Canada at the end of 1943.
During 1943, there were approximately 4,700 Japanese working on sugar beets in Alberta, Manitoba and Ontario, an increase of 1,000 over the preceding year.
About 600 Japanese have been employed in lumber camps in' British Columbia and approximately the same number in woods operations in Alberta, Manitoba and Ontario. The latter were transferred from farms and will return to farming this spring.
Japanese in the settlements of British Columbia have produced 35,000 cords of fuel wood, of w'hich 20,000 cords have been shipped to Vancouver, also 1,700,000 board feet of lumber and a variety of other wood products.
There also are at least 2,000 more Japanese men and women scattered from British Columbia to Quebec-as railway section hands, fish and vegetable and fruit canners, domestics, and cooks, factory and office workers, dry cleaners, tanners, and so on.
With few exceptions, the Japanese in Can ada, especially the Japanese Canadians, who are seventy-five per cent of the total number, are working industriously and causing no trouble.


Mr. GREEN:: How many are interned?


Humphrey Mitchell: I do not know. I could only give an off-the-record-guess.


Arthur Wentworth Roebuck: Has there been any
sabotage?


Humphrey Mitchell: None at all. The Department of Labour plans in 1944 to apply selective service direction more fully to the
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employable Japanese not yet in essential industry, thereby also accelerating the reallocation programme.


Howard Charles Green: Could the minister give us the general policy of the department with regard to the Japanese?


Humphrey Mitchell: If my hon. friend will
wait until I have finished this little digression, the sky is the limit and I will answer what he wants to ask me.
Coal mining. The situation of the coal mining industry was declared to be a national emergency in May, 1943, and last June the steps taken to that time to solve this situation were outlined to you. Since then our efforts have been continuous.
With the cooperation of the Department of National Defence, employment and national selective service officers have made every effort to locate soldiers in the army in Canada with coal mining experience, who could be spared from army duties. As a result, 2,144 were on leave from the army to work in the coal mines as of March 15, 1944.
Last May, order in council P.C. 4092 was passed, and directed that men with coal-mining experience then engaged in other industry, and who were physically fit, should be returned to the mines. They were exempted from military service until February 1, 1944, and, in fact, prohibited from enlisting voluntarily. P.C. 121 of January 10, 1944, has extended the effect of this order until August 1, 1944.
Up to March 15, 2,270 men were referred to the mines under these orders. A further 485 workers have been referred to coal mines under other orders. (P.C. 4861 and 6077).
There remains a demand for highly skilled miners to work at the face of the mines, particularly in the maritimes, but until such time as they are obtained the need for unskilled workers has been met.
After long negotiations training classes to provide skilled workers at the coal face will, it is anticipated, be started in the near future in the maritimes under the war emergency training programme. It is hoped this programme will develop and that it will provide a number of the required certificated miners.
Gold Mining. During 1943, an acute manpower situation developed in the gold mining industry. This was due to the fact that in 1942 it was necessary to curtail gold mining in order to ensure man-power for the mining and production of more essential metals and minerals, nickel particularly.
In 1941, the average number of employees in the gold mining industry was 33,348. In 1942 the average dropped to 26,501. In 1943
fMr. Mitchell.]
there was a further drop to 18,320. At the end of 1943 there were only about 16,000 men employed in the gold mining industry, a drop of 52 per cent from the 1941 average.
In September, 1943, the gold mining industry claimed that this labour loss had caused operations to fall considerably below the economic point, and that essential maintenance work was being neglected. It was represented to the Department of Labour that if the situation continued, some of the mines would be forced to close down entirely, and thus jeopardize future operations.
In October, 1943, a survey of the gold mines was made by selective service to determine the minimum number of men needed to keep each mine in operation. On the basis of the report, I approved a temporary change in the labour priority of gold mines to permit the hiring of 800 men not immediately required for high priority jobs.
In certain industries ' and occupations, notably flour mills, meat-packing and cold storage plants, replacement of trained and able-bodied male help by female workers and older men had proceeded to such an extent that it had the effect of creating a demand for more able-bodied male workers.
At August 28, 1943, there were 12,276 male and female workers on the payrolls of Canadian packing plants. There existed an almost immediate demand for another 4,000 male employees. At December 4, the payrolls had increased to 16,300. The employment service had found 4,024 more W'orkers for this industry.
The parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance on February 29, 1944, stated:
During the first 8 weeks of 1944 the inspected packing plants in Canada have slaughtered 780,000 more hogs, 50,000 more cattle, 10,000 more calves and 30,000 more sheep and lambs than in the corresponding *weeks of 1943. These figures represent an increase of 80 per cent in hogs, 50 per cent in cattle, 20 per cent in calves and 35 per cent in sheep and lambs.
We have supplied workers for flour and feed mills to enable increased shipments of flour overseas and to meet a shortage of feed for live stock in Canada.
During the past eighteen months the staffs of coal merchants, especially in large centres, became depleted to a point where drastic action became necessary' to assure coal deliveries to householders. An order was issued temporarily halting calls to military service, and a special effort made to provide more men. By the end of November the situation had cleared.
The primary textile industry has received special attention. An officer was loaned to the industry to survey the mills and to direct the

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recruiting campaign for labour. Enough workers were found to assure the output of supplies directly required for military needs, but the civilian supply has been necessarily curtailed. Production for civilian needs is now being stepped up and plans adopted to provide for the current year.
To meet the labour shortage in tanneries, special campaigns were conducted and a supply of men made available from prisoner-of-war camps.
Agricultural labour available for release from the farms following the harvest was also transferred to essential civilian industries, and this relieved a serious shortage. These men are being returned to agriculture this spring, thereby creating a demand for labour to fill the vacancies.
Many civilian industries not classed as essential, but nevertheless of primary importance, have maintained production in many instances by the use of female labour working part time.
War industries: construction and transportation, base metals-My colleague, the Minister of Munitions and Supply has given you figures on shipbuilding, aircraft building and products of munition plants.
Our war production is delivered not only to Canadian forces at home and abroad but is going to Britain, the United States, India, Africa, China, Russia, Australia, New Zealand and the south Pacific.
Canada ranks fourth amongst the united nations as a producer of munitions with a weekly output, of more than $55 million worth of munitions.
By the end of 1943 Canada had produced more than 10,000 planes; 600,000 motor vehicles; 750 escort, cargo and patrol ships; vast quantities of chemicals and explosives, and millions of dollars worth of signals equipment and instruments. All of this has meant supplying and using to the best possible advantage, man and woman power.
To attain this objective it was necessary to develop a close liaison between the Departments of Labour and Munitions and Supply. As changes in the production programme were made, shifts in man-power had to be made.
It is true that we never attained a position where every vacancy was filled. Nevertheless, it can be said that the various programmes were not seriously impeded by shortage of man-power. In fact the production figures prove this to be correct. Since September, 1943, the demands have lessened somewhat, although there are shortages for strong labourers who can do heavy manual work and also for skilled mechanics.
The requirements of the base metal mining industry have been very heavy and were particularly difficult to fill in view of the fact that the men required were necessarily of good physique and most of this type are in the armed forces. This necessitated the constant combing of other industries for the essential men required by the mines. Special campaigns of various kinds were inaugurated to keep the working forces of the mines at the necessary levels. Particular attention was given to the needs of the nickel mines.
At the close of the 1943 season large numbers of farm labourers were supplied to the International Nickel Company, Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company, the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company, and Sher-ritt Gordon Mines Limited, and to other base metal mines.
The development of the iron deposits at Steep Rock lake in Ontario was pushed forward during the year. This project necessitated draining lakes, driving large tunnels through rock for considerable distances, making new railway facilities and developing loading machinery. A river has been diverted that required at the peak of this project a labour force of one thousand men.
It should be appreciated that this undertaking involving the employment of thousands of workers has been carried on as a special task in the midst of war, and that all of this labour has been supplied through a system of labour controls and priorities. Generally production was maintained at high levels, this being due largely to the excellent cooperation between management and workers.
Shortages of men in the construction industry were partially met by transfer of thousands of workers to the more important construction projects. Demands were mainly for strong unskilled men.
Many large projects were completed on or near to their scheduled dates, as for example, the synthetic rubber plant at Sarnia.
The labour needs of rail, water and road transportation systems also were heavy during the peak months of summer and early fall. We did our best to meet them. The Department of National Defence cooperated and lent soldiers for urgent track maintenance. Some Italian prisoners of war were also used.
Special drives were made to obtain lake seamen during their off-season, and by arrangements made that these men returned for the reopening of navigation.
There is still a shortage of workers on combat aircraft, ship and aircraft repair, and for highly skilled workers in other lines. There are also insistent calls for both common labour and partially skilled labour.
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Lay-offs. The matter of lay-offs in war industries has come to the fore in recent months. As the war progresses, changes in production programmes and the curtailment in production of certain supplies necessarily involve cancellation of some contracts and changes in others.
Early in November last it was announced that such changes would make it necessary to lay off a considerable number of workers in various plants. The employment service studied the situation. Arrangements were rapidly made to have these lay-offs effected in an orderly manner with a minimum of time loss in transferring workers to other jobs.
As a general policy it was decided that all those men who were on military deferment should be called for the army unless they were considered to be indispensable to industry.	'
Further it was decided that the order in Which workers were to be laid off should be:
(1)	those with previous agricultural experience, particularly dairy farming and stockraising;
(2)	workers who were needed in other high priority industries in the same vicinity;
(3)	workers required by outside high priority industries, and who could be moved;
(4)	young workers without family obligations and
(5)	married women if their husbands were supporting them.
Up to the present, lay-offs have been considerably less than anticipated. This is largely due to new contracts being placed. I have in mind a certain lay-off which was being carried out at a steel plant. Before the layoff had been completed a new order came for overseas account which required the reemployment of more men so that overnight the "lay-off" problem changed to one of finding additional staff.


Mr. SENN:: Has the minister the figures showing the number of agricultural workers laid off, or does he not care to give them at this time?


Humphrey Mitchell: I will make a note of the question and endeavour to get the information.
Wartime bureau of technical personnel'. There has continued to be a short supply of technically trained personnel and the work of the wartime bureau of technical personnel, which was set up in February, 1941, has thus remained of primary importance.

A large proportion of the requirements of the armed services and war and essential industries have in fact been met. This has been accomplished very largely through the efforts of the bureau.
The bureau, acting in an advisory capacity, has succeeded in many instances in assisting those in need of the services of engineers and scientists and also in advising individual technical personnel how the national interest might best be served.
By the use of the employment permit system the bureau contributes largely in directing technical personnel to high priority industries and in securing a high degree of stability of employment.
Working in close cooperation with the universities, the bureau has through the administration of the university science students regulations assisted materially in ensuring that university students in science faculties make the best use of their training period.
Upon graduation, the bureau has dealt effectively with the question of their allocation as between the armed forces and industry and as between industries.
War emergency training (Canadian vocational training). The war emergency training programme has been in operation since April, 1940.
Up to the end of March, 1944, approximately
12,300,000	man-days training have been given at a cost of about $20,000,000.
The gross enrollment of full-time and parttime trainees was 333.458. Of these 134,534 were full-time preemployment industrial trainees, 102,357 of whom are known to have been placed in employment prior to March 31, 1944.
Of all full-time industrial trainees, thirty-one per cent have been women, but during the present fiscal year the percentage of women has been raised to forty-six per cent.
As the demand of war industry and the armed forces for tradesmen diminishes, steps are being taken to adapt the training centres to provide rehabilitation training along vocational lines for men and women discharged from the forces. The Department of Pensions and National Health has asked the Department of Labour to assume responsibility for training of this type.
It is anticipated that a large percentage of rehabilitation training will be given in industrial or commercial establishments in those occupations for which training cannot be given in any preemployment centre.

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An order in council was passed on January 21, 1944, making provision for the first time for dominion financial assistance to approved apprenticeship plans to be carried on by the provincial governments under apprenticeship acts. This is to provide for long term training in apprenticeships lasting at least two years and should prove of valuable assistance in helping to reestablish discharged members of the forces.
Special Placements. Many men and women are working today at jobs which at one time they might have thought themselves physically incapable of filling. A special placements division of the employment service was set up for the purpose of:
(1)	Promoting efforts to place physically handicapped men and women in suitable employment, and
(2)	Assisting in the placement of handicapped persons who have been trained by the vocational training branch of the department, or by other approved agencies.
A study is now being made of approved methods in use in other countries so as to provide our employment offices with practical information which will enable them to give the best possible advice to young people entering employment for the first time.
Wages policy. Wage rates in Canada to-day are at an all-time high level. They are considerably higher, in fact, than in 1920, when the cost of living was at the peak as a result of the first world war.
The wage rate index in 1920, the previous high in the pre-war history of the index, was 112-7. (Based on 100 for 1935-1939 average.) The index for 1942 was 127-5. While the index for 1943 has not yet been definitely determined, I do not hesitate to predict that it will show an advance over 1942.
It must also be remembered that the wage index does not give the complete picture. Overtime pay and bonuses have to be added.


Mr. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: And it is nearly all taken off in taxes.


Humphrey Mitchell: That is quite true. I learned that to-day to my sorrow. If we have to pay taxes to win the war I do not care if they take everything off me.
The number earning has also greatly increased, as is shown by the fact that the employment index rose from 113-9 in 1939 to 184-1 in 1943. (At December 1943 the index stood at 190-6.)


Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: The 113-9 refers
to what year?


Humphrey Mitchell: 1939.


John George Diefenbaker: What was the basis? What year was taken at 100?


Humphrey Mitchell: I have not that with me. I shall take a note of it and look it up for my hon. friend.
In 1939 the total wages and salaries paid amounted to 2-55 billions of dollars. In the following years the totals rose steadily until in 1943 the figure of 4-7 billions of dollars was reached. (Source of figures-Dominion Bureau of Statistics.)
Since the outbreak of war, vacations with pay have been introduced, covering an aggregate of 600,000 employees.
Group insurance plans have been authorized in the ease of 1,717 employers and covering 443,854 employees, while wage incentive plans have been approved covering some 30.000 workers.
Permission has been given to pay war risks bonus to crew members of vessels operating in dangerous waters.
I wish to emphasize that these improvements in the w-age position of a large number of workers have taken place within the framework of the government's policy of controlling inflationary processes.
The flexibility in the government's wage stabilization policy is further illustrated by the records of the war labour boards, which since their inception to November, 1943, have dealt with 43,535 applications, covering more than three million employees under the wartime wages control orders. Of these applications, 36,829 were granted in full; 3,005 were granted in part and 3.701 were denied. Of these 43,535 applications, no less than 29,010, involving 906,182 employees, were requests to the boards for increases in wage rates. The wage applications granted involved an annual increase in employees' wages of nearly $100,000,000 a year. In addition, 3,395 applications for increases in cost of living bonus were dealt with. These applications involved 479,047 employees and resulted in an annual increase to employees concerned of approximately 350,000,000. The government's wage control policy has succeeded in my opinion, because of its flexibility; wage boards were given power to adjust inequalities, and I have given you the evidence that these adjustments were made.
The improved position of wage earners is best realized when the cost of living index is taken into account. Canada's record in this respect is outstanding among allied countries.
War Appropriation-Labour

I have a statement here which I would like to have taken as read but which I now table so that it may appear in Hansard at this point in my remarks.
Table 5



COST OF LIVING INDEXES

[Stage Direction]
Changes in cost of living index figures in Canada and certain other countries since August, 1939. (Index for August, 1939=:100.)
Note: The index figures in each case are the latest available.
Canada

March, 1944	 118-1
United States-January, 1944	 125-9
United Kingdom-January, 1944	 128-4
Australia-December, 1943	 122-5
New Zealand-September, 1943	 112-9
India-(Bombay)-March. 1943	 198-1
South Africa-November, 1943	 126-5
Eire-November, 1943	 169-9
Mexico-November, 1943	 173-1
Chile (Santiago)-September, 1943.... 196-4
Switzerland-September, 1943	 148-9
Iceland (Reykjavik)-December, 1943..	251-5
Egypt (Cairo)-September, 1943	 252-3
Table 6
Comparison of changes in cost of living index figures in Canada and certain other countries since October, 1941, when regulation and control of prices and wages were put into effect in Canada
Change since Oct., 1941
Canada	  3-4
United States	 15-0
United Kingdom	no change
Australia	 12-5
New Zealand	 4-4
India	 79-1
South Africa	 16-1
Eire	 38-1
Mexico	 60-3
Chile	 54-8
Switzerland	 16-1
Cairo	 97-6
Iceland	 84-5
Data for tables 5 and 6 were supplied by the Dominion Bureau of Statistics.
Industrial Relations. The officers of my department in settling disputes -have relied upon persuasion * and appeals to the common sense and patriotism of labour and employers. In the large majority of cases such appeals are successful.
In 1942, a reorganization, enlargement and centralization of the conciliation services of the department was brought about and in addition a system of cooperation with the various provincial authorities has been developed. A director of industrial relations was appointed and also made registrar of boards of conciliation and investigation under the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act.

An important piece of legislation under the administration of the industrial relations branch is section 5 of order in council P.C. 4020, which provides for investigation into
allegations of discrimination for union membership and activity. The commissioners appointed under this section are usually judges, and if they find the allegations well founded, they may recommend to the Minister of Labour the reinstatement of the dismissed employee.
In the two and a half year period that section 5 has been in effect, down to the end of 1943, sixty-four investigations have been conducted involving 431 individual employees. Of these, 124 were reinstated voluntarily by the employers as a result of the investigations, twenty-nine were ordered reinstated with back pay; twenty-one persons received a monetary settlement of their claims.
Figures as to strikes and lockouts show a total of 402 during the year 1943. These involved 218,404 workers and caused a time loss of 1,041.198 man-days.
Preliminary figures for the first three months of 1944 indicate that time lost in man-working days has been less than one-third of time lost in similar period in 1943.
Year	Time	lost per
(1st quarter)	1,000 work days
1944	 -28 of 1 day
1943	
-94	"	"	"1942	
-39	"	"	"1941	
-06	"	"	"1940	
-14	"	"	"
While the number of strikes and the number of workers involved in 1943 were both greater than in previous years, 310 of the 402 strikes lasted less than five days, while 150 were of one day's duration or less.
During the year 1943 the average number of days lost per worker on strike was 4-S and in 1942 it was 3-9 days, as compared with 8-1 days in 1918 and 22-3 days in 1917.
During the 21 months previous to December 31, 1943, industrial relations officers of my department were called upon to mediate or give technical services in connection with 834 industrial disputes or controversial situations in which about 303.000 workers were involved. A great measure of success has resulted from this work of the department.
Members of the committee will be familiar with the recent order appointing the industrial production cooperation board. The order, it will be recalled, was sponsored by my colleague, the Minister of Munitions and Supply and myself. This order represents a recognition of the very real contribution which labour management production committees have made

War Appropriation-Labour
in the past and a further expression of the government's policy of encouraging their growth in industry. Steady progress has been made in this work and it is confidently hoped that the newly created board will give a further impetus to this work.
P.C. 162 established this board which is composed of H. Carl Goldenberg, Director General of Economics, Department of Munitions and Supply, as Chairman; M. M. Maclean, Director of Industrial Relations, Department of Labour; H. J. Carmichael, Coordinator of Production and Chairman of the Production Board. Department of Munitions and Supply; and Paul Goulet, Associate Director of National Selective Service, Department of Labour.
The board is to be assisted in the performance of its duties by an advisory committee of representatives of labour organizations and employer associations, which is provided for in the order in council.
The members of the advisory committee are: Pat Conroy, Secretary of the Canadian Congress of Labour; Percy R. Bengough, President of the Trades and Labour Congress of Canada; J. A. Parent, General Organizer of the Canadian and Catholic Confederation of Labour; Willis George, representative of the Canadian Manufacturers' Association; J. Clark Reilly, Secretary-Manager of the Canadian Construction Association; Colonel J. A. W. LaBelle, representing employers; and D. B. Chant, Secretary-Engineer of the Ontario Pulp and Paper Manufacturers' Safety Association.
Mobilization for armed forces.-Under our man-power policy, it is our duty to provide the required number of men for the army, while at the same time supplying the necessary men and women for our war industries, farms, base metal mines, lumber camps, railways, inland and sea-going shipping, and in other spheres.
Additional men have been designated for military service since last year. These were men who were born in the year 1925, but they were not callable until they had reached the age of 18 years six months.
Men who were married on the 15th July, 1940 and were born in any of the years 19131916, inclusive, also are now callable.
In order to summarize the situation, the following are the age groups subject to military call-up:
(a) every man born in the years 1913-25, inclusive, with the proviso that men born in the year 1925 are not callable until they reach the age of 18 years six months;
(b) every man born in the years 1902-1912, inclusive, who, at July 15, 1940 was
(i)	a widower without child or children; or
(ii)	was a judicially separated man, with or without child or children; or
(iii)	was an unmarried man; or
(iv)	was a divorcee, with or without child or children; or
(v)	who, since July 15, 1940, become divorced, whether or not he has a child or children; or
(vi)	who, since July 15, 1940, has been judicially separated, whether or not he has a child or children; or
(vii)	who, since July 15, 1940, became a widower without child or children.
However, we are not calling any man who has passed his thirty-eighth birthday as at present he is not acceptable for enrolment in the army.
We are still experiencing difficulty in locating men to whom call-up notices are sent but not complied with. Arrangements have been made for locating these men through various tracing agencies, provincial police and Royal Canadian Mounted Police. While each month sees a new group of delinquents, owing to call-ups being constantly forwarded, nevertheless we are steadily catching up with the backlog.
When a mobilization order w'hich has been issued by the registrar is returned by the post office authorities marked "undelivered", or when a man does not comply with the order, the case is turned over to the Hooper-Holmes Bureau or to the Associated Credit Bureaus.
If he cannot be traced by them within a reasonable time, the case is then turned over to the R.C.M.P. However, the credit organizations continue their work and if ultimately successful, notification is immediately sent to the R.C.M.P.
John George Diefenbaker: How many men have been located by the credit bureaux?


Humphrey Mitchell: I have the exact figures somewhere, but at a guess I would say it was around 22,000.


John George Diefenbaker: That is, 22,000 have been located by the credit bureaux?


Humphrey Mitchell: I think so. That is an approximate figure; it is around that, more or less.
A fee of $2.50 is paid to the tracing organizations, but not to the R.C.M.P., for each case in which they successfully locate the man. No moneys are paid if they are unsuccessful.
War Appropriation-Labour

Checking of records of enlistments in the armed forces with our records is exceedingly difficult in some instances. The date of birth is used as final evidence in identifying men. Owing to the zeal of our young men to enlist, many state their date of birth as prior to what it actually was. Older men do the reverse. We saw the same thing happen during the last war. It also is surprising the number who are confused regarding their birth date and who give varying dates. Conflicting dates necessitate a tremendous amount of painstaking study and search when there are many men of exactly thet same given and same surnames. As an instance, in one of our offices there are seventy-eight men of exactly the same surnames and same given names. Birth dates are the final check as addresses have been changed so frequently since national registration.
Everyone will agree that in a country the size of Canada, it is exceedingly difficult to locate every missing man. Many men join the forces of the United States-and of course that works the other way also; many men from the United States have joined the Canadian forces-and the merchant marine without notifying our offices. This adds to the difficulty.
Some time ago we arranged for a series of raids of public gathering places throughout the country whereby R.C.M.P., assisted by the local police, checked on the men present to see if they had complied with the requirements of the mobilization regulations. Here are some of the facts about these raids as at March 31, 1944:-	'
Number of places visited, 3,775.
Persons checked, 63,506.
Persons charged under mobilization regulations, 373, or less than one per cent.
Number charged under national registration regulations, 271.
Number of deserters apprehended, 145.
Number of persons found not gainfully employed and referred for employment to national selective service, 1,008.
The R.C.MJP. and civilian police authorities are to be commended on the manner in which they have applied themselves in apprehending delinquents. Many stories could be told by police authorities of long, arduous trips that were made under adverse conditions by snowmobile and dog sleighs in this work.
The regulations were recently amended whereby all employers in Canada were required to make sure that their employees in the designated age classes were in possession of some document to show that they were

in good standing under mobilization regulations. Literature explaining the reasons for this step was sent to all employers on record.
The object of this action was to bring to notice the case of any man who had been overlooked or who had not complied with mobilization orders. It was carefully explained to employers that they should only report cases in which there was doubt. Employers were given a period of two months to May 1 in which to undertake this check.
The number of men on whom reports have been made to April 15, 1944, was 3,896. Of these 2,334 wrere in good standing, 411 were not in good standing, and 1,151 have still to be reviewed owing to men not having notified change of address so that the file is still in the division from which the man removed.
Any man engaged in agriculture, on whom a report is rendered, is granted postponement, provided investigation proves this.
With regard to university students, recently we set up a university advisory board comprised of the heads of universities. The board convened in January and deliberated on the question of what course would be essential to the prosecution of the war and in the national interest. As a result, recommendations have been put into effect whereby students in selected courses would be given postponement in order that they might complete their course to make their contribution to our war effort. When a student fails to reach the required standard his postponement order is cancelled and if medically fit he is enrolled in the army. With the assistance of the university advisory board we intend to weed out those students who fail to attain the required standard.
Since last July, a reciprocal arrangement has been entered into between the United States and Canadian authorities whereby nationals of either country, who are resident for a period of three months in the other country, may be called for military service. They have the privilege of electing to serve in the forces of the country of their residence or of the country of which they are nationals.
Considerable uncertainty still seems to exist regarding the method of call-up. Instructions are issued to the registrar in each division to call as many men as possible to meet the requirements of the army. Even with the utmost effort, it has been increasingly difficult for some time to obtain the number of men required by the Department of National Defence each month. I am saying this to disabuse the minds of any members that in certain divisions where enlistments are high,

War Appropriation-Labour
particular pressure is exercised to increase the number of enrolments. This is not the case.
I	previously dealt with this subject at greater length on page 3944 of Hansard of June 23, 1943.
We are now finding it more difficult to fill the army requisitions. As the war progresses it is evident that we will soon have to rely largely upon those at present deferred and the young men coming of age.
War industry has passed its peak and it is reasonable to assume that many young men whom the demands of an expanding war production required in industry and who were therefore given temporary deferment will become available for the armed services.
The proportion of fit men in the higher age classes is becoming increasingly smaller. This entails a greater effort for smaller returns.
There is another point I would like to mention. Recently my colleague, the Minister of National Defence (army), made the statement in the house that he would require 60,000 men in the year commencing the first of April. In further correspondence with me, he has stressed the absolute necessity of obtaining these men, particularly bearing in mind the requirements of operations which are in prospect. In the last six months, September 1943 to February 1944, there actually have been more than 5,000 men per month who were enlisted and enrolled in the army alone. However, the monthly average has been decreasing, and at times enlistments and enrolments have fallen below the numbers required by the army. For this reason I think it is only fair to state in the house that further postponements in industry generally will have to be curtailed. This policy should not adversely affect industry; for, as I have already stated, its maximum demand has been passed. I mention this in order that all members will realize that the retention of young men of military age and fitness in industry can only be justified under very exceptional circumstances.
Previously when a man received an order- medical examination, he proceeded to a physician of his own choice. In September last this method was changed, in order to have as many examinations as possible conducted at the reception centres by army doctors and in more remote areas by designated1 panels of doctors. This was also with the object of lightening the burden on doctors generally and securing more uniform examinations.
Men who reside within a radius of a reception centre, which would enable them normally to proceed from their homes, undergo the examination, and return to their homes within forty-eight hours, are instructed to report to the reception centre. This takes care of sixty per cent of the medical examinations.
A similar practice holds for panels of physicians, namely, that the limitation of forty-eight hours is the guiding factor. Over six hundred doctors undertake such work. There are still men in more isolated areas who report to doctors of their own choice.
Under the call-up system and as provided by P.C. 9041 of November 30, 1943, we are now selecting men as guards for service in penitentiaries.


John George Diefenbaker: The minister has stated that in recent months there have been occasions on which the number of men requisitioned by the Minister of National Defence have not been supplied. Can he give us the figures for the months to which he has reference, and when did that condition begin?


Humphrey Mitchell: I can get those figures for my hon. friend, but I think he will appreciate that when you are operating machinery of the magnitude I am, you cannot remember all these little details. They are beyond the apprehension of any human being. I shall be glad to make a note and get those figures at the earliest opportunity.
I would like to refer to our industrial mobilization survey plan. In summary, the survey plan provides:-
1.	A proper allocation of men as between the needs of the armed services and essential industry.
2.	A means of quick withdrawal of men from a specific plant or retention whichever may be most in the national interest.
3.	More efficient handling of men in event of a lay-off, allocating those who are medically fit and subject to call to the army-assisting in transferring those whose skill or experience can best serve the national interest to another high priority industry.
4.	Acquaints the employment service with
the needs of a plant or industry and sets in motion machinery necessary to assist the employer.	.
5.	Provides an employer with definite knowledge as to the time his employees will be called for military service and allows him time for proper planning.
War Appropriation-Labour

6.	Presents factual evidence as to why any man or group of men are granted postponement of military training in any plant or industry.
7.	Gives mobilization boards information helpful in deciding on application for postponement of military training to individuals or groups in any given plant or industry.
8.	Brings to the attention of the divisional registrars those men who may be delinquent or who have not notified their registrar of any change of addTess and for whom they are looking.
9.	Indicates to employment service any surplus labour.
10.	It has the approval and cooperation of both management and labour.
Conscientious objectors. Up to March 31, 1944, mobilization boards had given deferments to 8,932 conscientious objectors. Subsequently, 245 offered their services to the armed forces and were accepted as combatant soldiers or air force personnel. One hundred and twenty-two others have enlisted as non-combatant soldiers in the medical and dental corps.
The great majority of conscientious objectors have been quite willing to undertake alternative service work as directed. As at March 31, 1944, some 3,188 have been placed in agriculture under alternative service employment agreements, and 1,295 contracted [DOT] in non-agricultural employment. A number have been placed in hospitals as orderlies or have been sent to employment wThere conditions have made it difficult for employment offices to supply workers.
Wartime labour relations regulations. Recently I tabled in this house order in council P. C. 1003, known as the wartime labour relations regulations. These regulations will, I hope, mark a milestone in the history of labour legislation in Canada and contribute to a reduction of time lost through industrial disputes and to sound industrial relations generally.
It is very gratifying to note the warm reception the order has received both from representatives of the employers and of the workers and I should like to express my appreciation of the cooperation of the provinces and the employers' organizations and trade unions.
When I addressed the committee last year I took the opportunity to point out the extent to which labour representatives were serving on various boards and committees of my department and to record my appreciation of the very fine contribution which labour

is making in this way. This year I wish to repeat my words of appreciation, and it will interest the committee to know that to-day labour has 352 representatives serving on 125 boards and committees of the Department of Labour, including the Unemployment Insurance Commission. This does not, of course, give the whole picture, for labour representatives are serving on many other government bodies. It does, however, suggest a segment of the contribution which labour is making to assist the government.
The contribution of employers and other citizens in regard to these boards and committees is equally great and deeply appreciated. The manner in which men and women from all walks of life have given voluntary service in this way is one of the outstanding features of the work of the Labour department.
Current situation and future problems. In conclusion I should like to say something of the labour supply situation at the moment and suggest some of the problems which we expect to face in the coming months.
Our man-pwer statistics show that the peak of labour demand for 1943 occurred early in September with 219,000 needed. The labour requirements of A and B priority industries alone (that is of war industries and essential civilian industries) were in excess of 160,000.
During the latter part of 1943 the situation improved considerably from the viewpoint of demand, due partly, of course, to seasonal factors, but also to two causes, namely, a levelling off process in war production, and the fact that our placement plans had shown definite results.
In December, 1943, gainfully employed persons numbered an all time high of 4,288,000.
There are still some pockets of labour demand. At March 30 last, labour demand for all industries (not including logging) totalled 92,300, while there were 35,000 applicants for employment who, on that date, had not been referred to jobs.
It is difficult to predict with any degree of certainty the developments which will occur in the labour market situation during the next few months. However, it is possible to make some general observations.
It may be that further cut-backs in war production will result in other lay-offs over the next few months; thus small pockets of temporary unemployment may develop from time to time. However, it should be possible to place most of these men with little delay. There will still be numerous shortages in certain high priority industries.

War Appropriation-Labour
It is possible that some materials hitherto reserved for war production will be released for the manufacture of essential consumers' goods and so the consequent expansion in civilian production should absorb many workers of both sexes.
Men who were given military deferments because of the essential nature of their work may be made available for military service.
To sum up:
The major task of the selective service system over the next few months will be:
First, to provide the required men for the armed services; second, to meet the labour needs of agriculture; third, to place in employment men discharged from the armed forces; fourth, to meet, as they develop, the urgent needs of certain key industries; fifth, to place men laid off as a result of changes in munition production schedules as quickly and efficiently as possible.
Over the next year it appears that the general shortage of manpower will continue, yet there will be in certain localities at certain periods areas of local, though temporary, unemployment. This is inevitable in a changing war economy.
I am confident, Mr. Chairman, that whatever problems are forthcoming, my department is equipped to meet them efficient^.
I should like before I take my seat to express my appreciation of the cooperation which the Department of Labour has received in the past year. Organized.labour, employers, the provinces, particularly the departments of agriculture, the mobilization board, the various advisory boards, all have been of great assistance.
The very large staff of the department has worked hard and faithfully under considerable pressure.
I	now ask that the following statistical statements be reproduced in Hansard:
List of Statistical Tables
Table
number	Manpower
1	Canada-Estimated manpower distribution-December 1, 1943.
Employment Operations of Employment and Selective Service Offices
2	Permits issued and separations notified
under selective service regulations, January 1-December 30, 1943.
3	Jobs arailable and placements effected
by employment offices, January 1-December 30, 1943.
Wage Trends
4	Total salaries and wages, index numbers
of employment and index numbers of wage rates in Canada for the period 1920-1943.
X.S.S. Mobilization Regulations Man-power distribution
7	Distribution of man-power in the
designated age classes by administrative divisions as at March 31. 1944.
Postponements
8	Number and percentage of postponements granted and refused by administrative divisions as at March 31, 1944.
9	Number and percentages of applications
for postponement for agricultural workers granted and refused.
10	Postponements in effect by classification as at March 31, 1944.
Medical categories
II	Number and percentage classified in each
medical category on first medical examination as at March 31, 1944.



TABLE I

[Stage Direction]
Department of Labour, Ottawa	March 23, 1944
Research and Statistics Branch	CANADA-ESTIMATED MAN-TOWER DISTRIBUTION	Subject to Revision
14 Years and Over (In Thousands)
Population Class	August 31, 1939	June 2, 1941	January 30, 1943	September 30, 1943	December 1, 1943	Males	Females	Total	Males	Females	Total	Males	Females	Total	Males	Females	Total	Total	%	%	%	%	%Total Population, 14 Years of Age and	Over	4,289	4,026	8,315	100-0	4,385	4,131	8,516	100-0	4,480	4,240	8,720	100-0	4,522	4,278	8,800	100-0	8,820	100-0I. Total in Armed Forces or Gainfully	Occupied	3,102	638	3,740	45-0	3,574	753	4,327	50-8	3,875	1,005	4,880	56-0	3,955	1,075	5,030	57-1	5,057	57-310	10	0-1	305	1	306	3-6	625	20	645	7-4	718	32	750	8-5	769	8-7B. Gainfully Occupied-Total (ii)..	3,092	638	3,730	44-9	3,269	752	4,021	47-2	3,250	985	4,235	48-6	3,237	1,043	4,280	48-6	4,288	48-61. Non Agricultural industry-	Total	1,829	638	2,404	29-7	2,213	752	2,965	34-8	2,315	985	3,300	37-9	2,247	1,043	3,290	37-3	3,353	38-0(a) Wage and salary workers in	420	40	460	5-4	820	216	1,036	11-9	885	235	1,120	12-7	1,104	12-5(b) Wage and salary workers in	civilian industry	1,452	522	1,974	23-8	1,428	596	2,024	23-8	1,195	654	1,849	21-2	1,062	693	1,755	19-9	1,834	20-8(c) Employers, own accounts	and no pays (iv)	374	116	490	5-9	365	116	481	5-6	300	115	415	4-8	300	115	415	4-7	415	4-72. Agriculture-males only (v)	1,266	1,266	15-2	1,056	1,056	12-4	935	935	10-7	990	990	11-3	935	10-6775	775	9-3	775	775	9-1	765	765	8-8	760	760	8-7	760	8-6III. Students	311	323	634	7-6	293	304	597	7-0	225	275	500	5-7	210	265	475	5-4	475	5-4IV. Unemployed (vii)	[ 170	91	261	3-1	40	25	65	0-7	20	25	45	0-5	50	0-6V. All others-Includes homemakers)	876	2,290	3,166	38-1	{	not on faftns	J	l 348	2,208	2,556	30-0	340	2,170	2,501	28-8	337	2,153	2,490	28-3	2,478	28-1
Note.-The above estimates are based on the most recent information obtainable from the Dominion Bureau of Statistics and other official sources. In some cases (such as agricultural males, farm women, and employers, own accounts and no pays), they are subject to a possibility of considerable error, as little statistical information is available.
fi) Includes prisoners of war and persons missing but still on strength. Excludes persons enlisted but on leave and engaged in civilian occupations.
(ii)	Does not include women gainfully occupied on farms or in farm homes, who are icnluded in item 3. Does not include wage and salary workers who are temporarily unemployed owing to "No job" or "Lay-off".
(iii)	Includes employment on direct and indirect war production and construction, and the. war content of employment in ancillary industries.
(iv)	"Own accounts" are persons who carry on their business without assistance of employees. "No pays" are mainly family workers receiving no fixed money payment.
(v)	The variation in employment during 1943 is due to seasonal factors.
(vi)	Since it is impossible to measure statistically the amount of farm work done by women, all women residing on farms are here included except students, women 65 years of age and over and those gainfully occupied outside the farm.
(vii)	In 1943, the number of unemployed was accounted for almost entirely by persons temporarily out of work while moving from one job to another.
to
[Stage Direction]
§
g
o
War Appropriation-Labour

War Appropriation-Labour
Table 2

[Stage Direction]
Permits Issued under the N.S.S. Civilian Regulations, January 1 to December 30, 1943
1. Permits issued
*(a) Temporary permits to leave agriculture and to
accept other employment	
(b) Regular permits to accept employment	
(e) Total permits to accept employment	
Males
96,150
1.936,067
2,032,217
Females
2,373
1,100,657
1,103,030
Total
98,523
3,036,724
3,135,247
* Virtually all such permits are cancelled or expire, and holders returned to agriculture, on the resumption of spring farming operations.

[Stage Direction]
EMPLOYMENT OPERATIONS OF EMPLOYMENT AND SELECTIVE SERVICE OFFICES Jobs Available and Placements Effected by Local Employment Offices,
Province Prince Edward Island... .	January 1 to December 30, 1943 	Male 	
Female 	Jobs available during year (1) 3.818 2,006	Placements effected during year (2) 4,154 2,054' Total 	5,824	6,208*Nova Scotia	Female 	58,291 26,617	49,881 25,281Total	84,908	75,162New Brunswick 	Female	41,149 17,661	37,549 16,892Total	58,810	54,441Quebec 	Female 	412,843 167,715	377,569 152,276Total 	580,558	529,845Ontario 	508,518 331,843	464,849 312,475Female 	Total	840,361	777,324Manitoba	55,993 49,805	56,674 49,221Female 	Total	105,798	105,895*Saskatchewan 	32.492 23,579	32,265 23,802Female	Total	56,071	56,0671943! Ve* "KS duringd1943at	h 1943>
P'US °rderS n°tified by employera durin8(2)	Number of persons who have been placed in jobs by Employment Offices during the year.Placements exceed jobs available because they include workers transferred out of the province and placed m some other province.	oul 01 lae
2450
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TABLE 3-Cone.
EMPLOYMENT OPERATIONS OF EMPLOYMENT AND SELECTIVE SERVICE OFFICES Jobs Available and Placements Effected by Local Employment Offices,
Province	January 1 to December 30, 1943	Jobs available during year (1)	Placements effected during year (2)Alberta 	Female 	67,362 41,769	64,839 41,335Total 	109,122	106,174British Columbia	Male 	
Female 	166,877 83,587	152.120 80,790Total 	250,464	232,910'Canada 	Female 	1,347,343 744,573	1,239.900 704,126Total	2,091.916	1,944,026(1)	Employers' orders unfilled as at January 1, 1943, plus orders notified by employers during 1943, less orders cancelled during 1943.(2)	Number of persons who have been placed in jobs by Employment Offices during the year.

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Total Salaries and Wages, Index Numbers of Employment and Index Numbers of Wage Bates
In Canada for the Period 1920-1943
		Index Numbers	Index numbers
Salaries and	employment (1)	wage rates (21Wages (1)	1926 = 100	1935-39-1001090	$2,477,573,000	112-71930 	
2,625.472.000	113-4	105-21931 	
2.200,236,000	102-5	101-71932 	
1,910.808.000	87-5	94-51933 	
1.740.589.000	83-4	89-61934 	
1.870,685.000	96-0	90-51935 	
2.016,186.000	99-4	93-11936 	
2.162.216.000	103-7	94-S1937 	
2.432,219,000	114-1	101-81938 	
2,454.348.000	111-8	104-91939 	2.554 519.000	113-9	105-31940 	
2.881.980.000	124-2	108-41941 	3.489,399.000	152-3	119-21942 	
4.197.051,000	173-7	127-51943 	4.700.000.000 (3)	190-6 (4)	(not available)(1)	From Dominion Bureau of Statistics. The wage and salary figures do not include payments to the armed forces.(2)	From Department of Labour. The figures include cost of living bonus payments.(3)	Preliminary estimate made in the Department of Labour by applying the Bureau of Statistics index of aggregate payrolls to the 1942 total wage and salary figures.(4)	December, 1943. The yearly average was 184-1.
Mote.-The index numbers of wage rates apply to wage rates only, not salaries.
The changes shown by the index number of wage rates are not necessarily reflected in the total wages and salaries earned as total earnings are affected also by the changes in the size of the working force (employment index) and by the shift from "short tune in depression years to "overtime" in boom years.
{Mr. Mitchell.1
Table 7
NATIONAL SELECTIVE SERVICE MOBILIZATION REGULATIONS Manpower Distribution
Distribution of Manpower in the Designated Age Classes by Administrative Divisions-March 31, 1944
-	London	Toronto	Kingston	Port Arthur	Montreal	Quebec	Halifax	Saint John	Charlotte- town	Winnipeg	Van- couver	Regina	Edmon- ton	TotalArmed Forces	52,206	159,168'	47,255	12,211	84,001	26,863	38,617	30,038	6,338	54,995	55,210	60,992	54,338	682,232Men applying and on Postponement-	Fit Men, i.e., "A" Category only..	14,747	16,369	16,679	1,532	16,483	9,589	5,663	8,645	1,982	12,385	10,272	19,495	19,730	153,611Unfit Men, i.e., "B.C.D.E." Cate-	7,858	20,546	4,648	30,215	27,330	7,177	3,541	1,059	6,023	6,991	14,836	8,273	138,497Unfit for Front Line Combatant	Duty, i.e., Active Service, and in-	eludes "B", "C", "D", "E"	Categories and Rejections on	Enlistment	27,180	78,428	28,230	7,228	111,563	41,573	28,340	18,170	3,600	26,971	31,688	24,706	28,508	456,185Not Yet Sent Order-Military Train-	mg	619	3,241	276	108	9,002	1,876	353	1,465	47	31	1,199	1,497	880	20,594Not Yet Sent Order-Medical Exam-	501	1,442	119	1S6	26,509	13,461	19	27	115	244	3,845	46,578Sent Orders-Time Limit Not Ex-	pired	2,148	2,199	563	76	8,105	2,587	1,042	905	8	567	329	620	908	20,057Not yet 18$ years of age but born in	1925	1,576	5,528	1,628	158	6,677	2,260	1,696	1,240	244	1,577	1,410	2,774	1,965	28,733Not Available, i.e., Outside Canada,	Not Acceptable, Deceased, in Gaol,	1,634	4,956	1,531	826	4,002	2,801	1,737	1,033	143	2,600	11,508	1,459	3,096	37,326Statutory Exemptions, i.e., Clergy,	Police, Enemy Alies, etc	704	4,726	1,302	1,700	6,818	1,351	368	357	94	750	1,565	1,954	2,714	24,4631,896	648	3,349	688	1,576	70	Not accounted for	1,794	7,887	733	324	18,923	6,252	1,166	889	33	1,017	5,063	3,235	1,685	49,001t111,007	306,386	103,024	24,997	325,647	136,631	86,178	66,393	13,575	108,607	125,479	135,483	122,097	1,665,504
'Including men who have passed their 38th birthday.
tThis figure compared with 67,674 not accounted for as at May 15, 1943, and indicates a reduction of 18,673. This reduction has been accomplished while dealing with 677,009 additional men in the period since May 15, 1943. Out of a total of 1,665,504 only 49,001. or approx. 3% are now not accounted for.
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Postponements
Number and Percentage of Postponements Granted and Refused by Administrative Divisions,
March 31, 1944
Administrative Divisions	Postponements granted	Percentage granted	Postponements refused	Percentage refusedLondon, Ont	.. 51,688	98-0%	1,073	2-0%Toronto, Ont	.. 75.390	82-0%	16,541	18-0%Kingston, Ont	.. 32.804	94-1%	2.055	5-9%Port Arthur, Ont	. . 3.559	91-0%	350	9-0%Montreal, P.Q	.. 70,768	85-5%	12,048	14-5%Quebec, P.Q. 	.. 40,900	79-0%	10,908	21-0%Halifax, N.S	.. 16,825	83-2%	3,399	16-8%Saint John, N.B	.. 13,935	95-0%	743	5-0%Charlottetown, P.E.I	.. 3.921	87-0%	588	13-0%Winnipeg, Man	.. 25,993	88-0%	3,531	12-0%Vancouver, B.C	.. 31.368	86-4%	4.953	13-6%Regina, Sask	.. 37,605	80-7%	8,966	19-3%Edmonton, Alta	.. 32.347	96-9%	1,028	3-1%Canada 	.. 437,103	86-8%	66,183	13-2%

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Postponements
Number and Percentage of Applications for Postponement for Agricultural Workers
Granted and Refused
No.
of applications No. dealt with* granted
March 20, 1941-May 14, 1942..	20,887	15,996
May 15, 1942-March 31, 1944. . 224,556	210,519
Percentage No. Percentage Total still granted refused refused in effect
76-6%	4.891	23A%1	145.52993-7%	14,037	6 - 3% J
* Including those who applied more than once.
"Mr. Mitchell.]

[Stage Direction]
Postponements in Effect, by Classification, as at March 31, 1944
Administrative Division	Farming	Fishing	Lumbering	Mining	Essential Ind's- and Services	Students	Con- scientious Objectors	Merchant Marine	Com- passionate	All Others	TotalLondon, Ont	15,510	56	22	1	4,221	629	1,295	178	47	686	22,645Toronto, Ont	9,230	90	241	41	17,979	3,836	895	512	912	1,339	33,084Kingston, Ont	14,496	30	569	3	2,756	715	25	56	404	2,021	21,075416	31	63	1	611	9	1	27	162	1,321Montreal, P.Q	19,040	12	170	9	5,431	3,801	15	119	292	4,183	33,07217,269	317	122	8	4,759	1,729	59	762	25,025Halifax, N.S	3,899	503	433	447	4,142	749	36	1,061	121	1,266	12,657Saint John, N.B	5,846	409	879	279	1,945	349	3	149	148	1,048	11,0552,625	40	2	39	91	2	33	12	191	3,035Winnipeg, Man	11,468	43	36	195	1,233	220	2,664	45	61	1,275	17,240Vancouver, B.C	2,241	732	2,455	590	6,911	1,146	616	463	376	1,693	17,243Regina, Sask	24,378	21	143	95	337	680	1,685	14	7	1,205	28,565Edmonton, Alta	19,111	13	247	893	1,977	543	1,048	13	54	709	24,608Canada	145,529	2,317	5,382	2,562	52,341	14,497	8,285	2,729	2,443	16,540	252,625
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fMr. Mitchell.]
K>
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TABLE It

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Number and Percentage Classified in each Medical Category on First Medical Examination as at March 31, 1944
Divisions	A	%	B	%	c	%	D	%	E	%	TotalLondon, Ont	32,539	49-0	8,048	12-1	8,627	13-0	1,150	1-7	16,088	24-2	66,452Toronto, Ont	94,926	49-6	28,162	14-7	24,547	12-8	3,460	1-8	40,429	21-1	191,524Kingston, Ont	31,680	49-2	7,071	110	7,325	11-4	742	1-2	17,513	27-2	64,331Port Arthur, Ont	6,510	52-8	1,353	11-0	1,459	11-8	128	1-1	2,874	23-3	12,324Montreal, P.Q	63,795	30-0	32,151	151	43,655	20-7	7,592	3-6	65,064	30-6	212,257Quebec, P.Q	28,700	29-3	16,396	16-7	18,497	190	3,402	3-5	30,809	31-5	97,804Halifax, N.S	26,013	45-0	8,375	14-5	7,547	13-0	1,542	2-7	14,341	24-8	57,818Saint John, N.B	21,667	48-8	5,374	12-1	4,448	10-0	1,971	4-5	10,924	24-6	44,384Charlottetown, P.E.I	4,699	51-9	927	10-2	982	10-9	93	M	2,345	25-9	9,046Winnipeg, Man	31,056	48-6	7,156	11-2	6,362	10-0	1,267	20	18,033	28-2	63,874Vancouver, B.C	38,478	49-7	10,097	13-0	8,798	11-4	1,888	2-5	18,108	23-4	77,369Regina, Sask	48,368	55-5	12,132	13-9	9,456	10-8	4,057	4-7	13,172	151	87,185Edmonton, Alta	45,196	56-1	10,341	12-8	7,443	9-2	2,640	3-4	14,900	18-5	80,520Canada	473,627	44-5	147,583	13-9	149,146	14-0	29,932	2-8	264,600	24-8	1,064,888
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War Appropriation-Labour
Mr. MASSEY:: Mr. Chairman, as I rise to address the committee I would crave through you the indulgence of hon. members in that I have been back in Canada but a very short time on temporary duty and have been fully occupied; I am to return almost immediately to my duties overseas. Accordingly, I have had and will have little opportunity to be in the chamber, and thus the remarks which I purpose to address to the committee may not be exactly under the item which is at present before the committee. I crave indulgence if I seem to stray to some extent from what otherwise would be in order.
It is a matter of years since I have had the privilege of speaking in this chamber, and during the last fifteen months of those years it has been my rare and distinct privilege to have been overseas on duty in the United Kingdom. Therefore my view of the deliberations of this house has perforce been a long-range view and my knowledge of its proceedings vicarious. On the other hand, the experience which has been mine as a serving officer both in Canada and overseas since the early beginning of this war has been nothing short of priceless, and I have been able to observe at first hand what has been accomplished in the service to which I am so proud to be attached, the Royal Canadian Air Force.
As I have said, I am in Canada but a short time, and it might seem a presumption on my part to take an active and direct part in the domestic deliberations of this house. Therefore in what I have to say to-day I shall speak from an overseas point of view.
Hon. members will realize as I proceed that my whole purpose in taking the time of the committee this afternoon is from a purely constructive point of view, and what I have to say is said earnestly and will, I hope, be for the benefit of the Canadian sailor, soldier, and airman. If I particularly stress the airman of that noble trio, it is because I frankly admit that I am a prejudiced witness on his behalf, a position which I know will not be misunderstood.
Those who have been in Canada in recent years and more particularly in recent months will perhaps not recognize as do those of us who have been far away from it, how much the domestic scene has changed. To return home after over a year's absence is to realize something which is, to say the least, disquieting. In the last three or four weeks I have seen, I frankly admit, only three Canadian cities, Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto, but what I have seen in those cities is to me as alarming as it is tragic. If I may generalize from these local observations I 100-155
would say that Canada at the moment is not so much a nation motivated by a full-out war effort, but is on the other hand, it would seem, in many ways a nation enjoying the greatest prosperity in its history. These days appear to me to be as gilded and as giddy as those of 1929. I regret to say it, but I say frankly that I am not particularly impressed, in the time I have been in this chamber on a few occasions, with its atmosphere. There seems to me to be an unreality about it; there seems to be a lack of appreciation in the fullest sense that the finest of Canada's young manhood is daily dying that those at home may live under British freedom. I hazard the statement that there are times when visitors may sit in these galleries for a whole sitting and then leave the house, hardly realizing there is a war on.
To have lived in a country where every- and I say "every"-able-bodied man or woman is contributing fully under an organized and well regulated selective service to what is in fact as well as in name an all-out war effort is to realize what an all-out war effort is. In the United Kingdom one does not see able-bodied men holding down jobs that could be filled as effectively by women. Those who are not in uniform are productively employed in some essential jobs, and after "working hours may be, for several nights a week, out literally all night on A.R.P. duty, fire watching, whatever it may be, back again on the job in the morning, and one or two other evenings in the week and at the weekends out at manoeuvres with the local home guard. How fully do I recognize that there are in this country tens of thousands of homes from which men have gone to duty in the armed forces, many of which homes are to-day sorrowing under the greatest tragedy that could have befallen them. But these homes are not Canada as a whole as I see it, and one cannot but feel that in the atmosphere which prevails in parts of the country which I have seen since I came back there is almost a carnival spirit, prematurely anticipating the victory which indubitably will come but which has not yet been achieved. One almost feels that the war has brought to Canada in 1944, as I have said, a period of prosperity rather than . a period of grim crisis.
During the last three or four weeks I have had the opportunity of sitting in this chamber but a few times and briefly. It has been a very sobering experience. I have not come back to Canada, as, I regret to say one who had the opportunity of meeting the enemy directly in the air or on the land or on the

M7ar Appropriation-Labour

sea. That privilege is denied me because, I am told, I am too old. My opinion of that point of view I cannot express in parliamentary language, Mr. Chairman. On the other hand, I have been in London recently and through most of England; I have returned to Canada by troopship, and therefore I have had the opportunity of seeing some activity. To see the people of England in general and the people of London in particular under the stress of the February raids on London- which incidentally were not particularly amusing-to live under the rigid rationing of the United Kingdom, to feel one's way through the blackout, is to impress upon one what might be called the grim unreality of the atmosphere of this house. Across this country from- the Atlantic to the Pacific this week, plastered on billboards, spread throughout the press, and echoed on the radio, is the slogan of the sixth victory loan, "Put Victory First". It might not be an unworthy suggestion to propose that that slogan be hung in this chamber.
I hold in my hand a copy of Hansard dated Tuesday, April 25, 1944. It records a debate about as far removed from the war as the sunny sands of Palm Beach are from the bloody sands of Anzio. I should like to ask ton. members if they would care to have that Hansard circulated among our armed forces on active duty to indicate to them what parliament is doing back home to back them up. There is the record that the proceedings of an entire day were devoted to wrangling on a motion to accept the report of a standing committee to amend the rules governing this house. I wonder what would be the effect upon the morale of those who are in the front line of this war if this debate had been broadcast to them. It was a shocking experience, particularly just at the beginning of the sixth victory loan, to have such a fatuous performance as that which was conducted in this chamber last Tuesday.
This, Mr. Chairman, is the seat of government. It is from here that stirring leadership should come. If there is a strange unreality about the conduct of this house that atmosphere will permeate the whole of Canada. On the other hand, if the government sets the pace it should, equally that atmosphere will permeate the whole of Canada. Therefore there rests that intangible and yet fully tangible responsibility on the shoulders of the government of Canada to provide that realistic, active leadership which is described in the slogan of the sixth victory loan, "Put Victory First." This is the type of leadership that this government must give. It was never more required than at this moment when we are
{Mr. Massey 1
on the threshold of the greatest and grimmest adventure in which this country has ever had
part. D-day will be news in Canada. D-day will be a stark reality to the men in the front line.
I hold in my hand three periodicals, one of them Canadian, Macleans, and two of them American, Life and Fortune. I suggest to. hon. members that they look through such publications, a.t the advertising pages. In their pages are advertisements designed to prime the public for purchases after victory. One would think, to glance through some of these pages, that victory was assured, that it was at hand to-morrow. To hear and overhear some conversations, one would be led to believe that all we have to do to win the war is to step ashore from the barges and walk to Berlin through a Germany flattened by the air force.
We must realize that no beachhead can possibly be established on the steps of the European fortress without the payment of a ghastly price. The road to Berlin can be no other than a bloody road, but that is the price we are going to have to pay before victory is ours. As I see it at the moment, Canada is all tee-ed up for a sickening shock. Some day, soon possibly, the unreality of this present era of prosperity will be brought to a sudden end by the sacrifice which this country will then realize it is making.
I do not wish to be lugubrious or morbid, but I should like this house, in its deliberations and in its plans, to think soberly upon the brave homes to which telegrams will be sent, telegrams which commence with the words, "Regret deeply...". I can say nothing more earnestly and sincerely in this chamber than I say this: In the name of every Canadian lad in the armed forces, let this house away with petty politics, away with useless and fatuous wrangling; and may this government rouse itself to the full and active responsibility of the leadership which it should give.
Never forget for a moment that this war is not won until the armistice is signed. Never forget for a moment that the fcun is not defeated, and the Jap does not cease to be a deadly menace, until the last shot is fired. Never forget for a moment that if we relax, if we take on a cock-sureness, if we assume a complacency, if we assume that victory is already ours, then the war can yet be lost.
I have said what I have said, Mr. Chairman, as strongly as I have said it, because of the impression that has been made upon me in recent days in the few times I have sat where I now stand. I say it because in some ways it is the most singularly important single thing I can say in the brief time it is my privilege to

War Appropriation-Labour
speak here. Not for a moment in anything I have said however, have I overlooked what this country has done to date. I have it very clearly in mind. I have seen at first hand the contribution it has made and is making. No more sincere compliment can be paid to the skill of the designers, the craftsmanship of the workmen, and the acumen of the business executives than is paid daily by the efficiency, the effectiveness, and the quantity on hand of the war materials which we have produced and are producing in such vast abundance. Yes, Canada's contribution in war materials is vast, magnificently effective, as our troops well know. Any Canadian who goes to the United Kingdom or elsewhere to-day may look with pride on Canada's contribution in materials to this war.
I do not profess to know directly the activities of the men in the Royal Canadian Navy or of the Canadian Army, but I know something about the men and their activities of the Royal Canadian Air Force. But for our sailors, let me say this. My station in England is adjacent to a very large naval training station, and consequently many naval officers are now numbered among my friends. Notoriously, the Royal Navy is the silent service, and any praise from a well-salt-watered naval officer is praise indeed. Repeatedly my heart has been warmed by those who have seen action in the battle of the Atlantic in particular, and in other waters in general, where they have met the Royal Canadian Navy and now speak so magnificently of its work. It was indeed a thrill a rare thrill, on the voyage home the other day to see Canadian naval vessels on duty in the Atlantic and to feel that those ships which we saw were just a few of the many of our splendid, efficient and very new Royal Canadian Navy.
Then, too, as a result of other contacts I have made, having talked to those who have sat side by side with our lads in Sicily and in Italy, and heard the words of praise that have been spoken to me sincerely, I know they are words to make any Canadian swell with pride.
Canada has every reason to be proud of her fighting troops.
And then our airmen. Groundcrew as well as aircrew, inferior to none, superior to most, have set up in this war a record which is in the best traditions, built up by that mighty group of the last war who flew their "birdcages" with gallantry and valour. The joy and the thrill of the old dog-fight have gone. Most of the sorties to-day are a pretty cold-blooded and lengthy proposition requiring the greatest courage, endurance, ability, skill and sheer guts. Youngsters of nineteen and twenty are 100-1551
captaining huge aircraft with a crew of seven and a load sometimes of eight tons of bombs, flying through flak, fighter opposition and "soup" to the target for the night, dropping their bombs with devastating precision. No nobler pages have been or are being written in the annals that record deeds of heroism, valour and courage than are being written every day and every night by the lads of the Royal Canadian Air Force.
And so I say to the government, these sailors, these soldiers and these airmen are your responsibility. They have volunteered to go. You have trained them to go. They have gone. The best is not too good for them; the least that we can do for them is the most that we can do. When I speak of the lads overseas I think too of the lads who have volunteered for overseas duty and yet who to-day are still in training stations, headquarters or other units in Canada. It is trite to say that one in uniform goes wherever he is sent and does what he is told. It is equally true. But do not criticize the volunteer in Canada who is not sent overseas. The chances are that he has repeatedly requested an overseas posting and it has not come through for him yet. I say in the minister's presence that it took me three years to get there.
Let me say a word for the ground officers and men of our air force and those airmen of our services who are denied the privilege of operations by their medical category, their age, or whatever it may be. Apparently it is altogether too easy for some to criticize those of us who are "chair-borne" and who are only permitted to fly a desk. One sometimes hears wholly unjustified and disparaging remarks about the general duties of airmen or the administrative officers. These men are just as essential to the sendees as the lads who fly. Their job may be colourless, undramatic, and in many cases routine. It is one thing to fly. It is another thing to "keep 'em flying." Aircrew is dependent upon groundcrew. We are a team; all praise and honour to the aircrew, all credit and honour to the groundcrew.
In what I have said so far I have not forgotten for a moment that this government would be most remiss in its duty, in its responsibility, if it did not plan immediately for the days of demobilization and the battle of peace, which in many ways will be just as difficult, trying and expensive as the war. It is vitally necessary that plans be made. Some plans are, of course, already in the process of making. It is vitally necessary that schemes be designed and programmes laid down now for the day when the member of the armed forces hangs up his uniform or hands it in for the last time.
War Appropriation-Labour

Let me say here that part of the functions [DOT]of my station overseas is in connection with :repatriation. Through it flew all the lads, aircrew as well as groundcrew on their way hack to Canada. I personally see and interview large numbers of them in the course of duty, and, of course, after hours. I think I can give the committee a fair idea of what is in their minds when they are at the point of coming home. I say this immediately to you: there is not one of them who wants to * be milk-fed when he comes back. There is not one of them who wants your sympathy or your pity. Goodness knows he has demonstrated to the full his unselfishness and sincerity. He has certainly proved himself a worthy citizen. He expects something from his government, and justly so. He does not want much, and he does not want to foe coddled. What he wants is reasonable, and I can tell you he expects it. All he wants from his government, to put it in a sentence, is an even break to rehabilitate himself. He realizes that he has not had too much experience in the art of living a normal life. He knows that in the last few months or years he. has lived a hectic life under a terrible strain; that inevitably that strain has taken a toll of him to a greater or lesser degree, and the period of adjustment is certainly not going to be easy for him. He wants counsel. He wants a bit of help, a bit of advice. What is already going forward in our service or in the process of development along these lines is a most worthy project, and I compliment the minister upon setting it up. Yes, the man when he returns wants help and counsel in the rehabilitation period; and yet when it comes right down to it hon. members will fully realize how little many of these youngsters, thousands of them, yes, tens of thousands of them, fresh out of school, know about earning a living or maintaining themselves. For his whole service life everything has been found for him. On the whole, the chances are he has had a pretty decent place in which to live and he has had good food. The chances are that he has earned more money than he could hope to earn in civilian life until he has had a bit of experience and has climbed up the ladder a little.
Yes, he needs your help. He certainly expects it. It would foe his idea, in which I heartily concur and -which I recommend strongly to the government, that he should be kept on strength at his rate of pay until such time as his rehabilitation period or training period for civil life, whether it foe in a school, college, university or as an apprentice in a job, or in a technical school, is complete. I do not suggest for a moment

that he feels he should be kept in uniform. He could be on leave with pay and permitted to wear civilian clothes, but kept on strength until he finishes his training.
Then he expects on his discharge, on the completion of his training, that a job be ready for him as he will be ready for it. This he feels is due him by the government. He also wants a place to live. He wants to be sure that he is going to get a place to live. There is nothing he wants more than a home. Many of these lads have been to the four corners of the world. They have been away from their country for years, and Canada looks pretty good to them when they come back. In some cases, yes, in thousands of cases, he will be bringing his bride home with him. He has already heard about the shortage of homes in Canada. He is a bit worried about that and he expects the government to do something about it.
Another thing he thinks about is the fellow who stayed back home, perhaps through no fault of his own because he was in an important war job or, maybe, because he did not want to go. The man in the services overseas appreciates fully that there is a home front as well as a war front, but he takes a pretty dim view of the fellow who could go active but did not. What he expects-[DOT] and he does expect it-is that the lad who stayed at home will not be permitted to pick off all the plums in so far as jobs are concerned before he has had a chance to get them too. In other words, he wants his future safeguarded for him while he is away. These are the principal things about demobilization which the lads I have seen are thinking about when they have time to think about their future or they find they are on their way home.
There is another point that some of them, perforce have to think about, and that is a pension. So many of them are coming back with the mark of battle upon them. Lots of them have disabilities that are permanent. W'hat about the pension? He does not like the present pension legislation. He thinks it is un-British in that the would-be pensioner is considered guilty until he is proven innocent. By that he means that the onus of proof is on the applicant. He feels it should be the other way. In other words, he feels that the applicant is entitled to his pension unless his application is proved unjustifiable. That matter is of no small importance.
He is pleased to know that his government is in the process of introducing legislation to set up three new departments, the departments of social welfare, reconstruction and veterans' affairs. He feels that is a step in

IFar Appropriation-Labour
the right direction. You see, for much of his life, just to take one point, he has had the best of medical and dental care, and his needs in those fields have been at his disposal without cost. He is going to be out on his own some day soon, he hopes; and to obtain the benefits of these necessary services is apt to be a big expense. Therefore he feels that by the time he gets back something should have been done to make these essentials accessible to him, and within his means.
Then, too, for the present, while he is still on active duty, he feels that a bit more could be done for him. About all he gets now is his pay. I am breaking no confidence, Mr. Chairman, nor am I transgressing my privileges as a serving officer or as a member of this house, when I say that I know the Minister of National Defence for Air (Mr. Power) has some plans in mind in this regard, which plans it is not my privilege to mention here. To him I should like to say: All power to you and your ideas; and to his colleagues in the government I say: Give him your full support. You see, these airmen of ours are scattered over the face of the globe; some are in far-flung, distant places, remote and woolly. Sometimes some of these lads think they have been forgotten; in most cases in such places they are with a service other than their own, namely the Royal Air Force. They are still Canadians; they are still our responsibility, and they feel that their own service should look after them. So I say to the minister, carry on with the plans you have in mind; and again I urge his colleagues in the government to give him their full support in order that these plans may be implemented.
These, Mr. Chairman, are only a few of the things about which the airmen are thinking. If time permitted I could discuss other points, perhaps of less importance but still of great importance. Some of these matters have already been brought forward in this chamber by the hon. member for Vancouver North (Mr. Sinclair). For example, the clothing allowance on discharge is $65. The airman knows and the government knows, that you cannot re-kit yourself in a civvy outfit for $65; at least if you do, you look as if you had. Another thing he does not like is this quaint $44.20 for living allowance during a training period. The mathematics of it somewhat befuddles him, but he does know one thing; it is not enough. What he dislikes most of all is the vast difference between what the low-ranking airman gets on discharge as compared with what the senior officer gets. He feels that it is all out of balance and unfair. Therefore I urge upon the government, with all the earnestness of which I am capable, that they listen to what these lads of ours have to say in regal'd to
what they want and expect. Take their word for it; they have earned what they ask for. As I have said, they are not asking much; they are not unreasonable; they are not selfish; they are not grasping. This country has no finer possession than these lads. They just want a fair break; that is all. This government has no greater challenge in connection with its war responsibilities than in connection with its responsibility for the future of the men and women in Canada's armed forces.
In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, let me return to the point from which I began, "Put Victory First." In the midst of the planning which, is so vitally necessary for to-morrow, let this5 house never relax for a moment from its full: responsibility toward the winning of the war. Let it discourage private bickerings and! quibblings; let it set a standard for the whole of Canada, so that by its actions it may provide the leadership which this country so sorely needs. Since returning to Canada I have been asked repeatedly, "What do the lads talk about when, they are not on duty?" I can give you the answer to that question in three words: Winning the war. Visit our units in the United Kingdom, or wherever they may be; visit stations and squadrons, where our lads are in such great numbers. There you will find the noblest body of young men produced by any country. You will find their spirits high, their determination deep, never flagging or failing. To win the war; that is their slogan.
As I take my seat and then leave this chamber to return to duty I express the hope of every one of us in the armed forces, that the stern reality of the moment as we face D-day will impress itself upon this house and this countiy. Something was written during the last war which has been repeated time and time again, and it cannot be repeated too often these days. It was written by a Canadian for Canadians. They are simple words, but how deeply they should sink into the very fibre of this house and this nation: "If ye break faith ... we shall not sleep. ..."


James Layton Ralston: Before the committee
takes recess I should like to place upon the record, in connection with the matter of housing particularly as it affects dependents of members of the armed forces, a telegram which was sent out by the chairman of the dependents' board of trustees to the different dependents' advisory committees all over Canada, as follows:
Immediate
Para, one: The dependents board of trustees are empowered to provide supplementary grants or special assistance to qualified dependents of members of the armed forces where such dependents have special or emergency needs.
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Para, two: Advisory committees are reminded that this provision covers assistance to such dependents who may be threatened with eviction and have other accommodation available but require financial assistance to meet transportation costs.
Para, three: Please arrange with your committee and your cooperating local welfare organizations to give immediate and sympathetic consideration to applications of this nature.
Para, four: Grants may be made locally as necessary within usual limits of committee authority. Where reference to the board at Ottawa is required please use telephone or telegram. Special arrangements have been made by board to deal immediately with these emergency cases.
Para, five: Your mayor and municipal authorities should be reminded immediately of the assistance available through your committee and that D.B.T. is both ready and anxious to help qualified dependents who need emergency assistance.
Para, six:	I bespeak your close personal
attention to this matter and urge the most prompt and sympathetic action. You may be assured of the fullest cooperation of the board.
Jack Pembroke,
Chairman, D.B.T.


Gordon Graydon: Was that telegram sent this afternoon?


James Layton Ralston: It was sent to-day.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


Mr. MacNICOL:: Mr. Chairman, for a
moment or two I should like to deal with a few' of the matters to which the minister referred. I was interested in what he said about section 5, that under the present regulations it is rather difficult for an employer to discharge an employee. This change has been long overdue, and I hope it is now official that employees cannot be discharged without official consent. I am sure this will be a relief to workmen generally, particularly in large plants. I believe he said also that an employee cannot just quit his job when he feels like it. I hope the regulations referring to each of these facts, if I may call them facts, are not just something that can be set aside at will. I hope that they will be kept in force.
I wish to say a word about selective service. Tirst, I should like to compliment the minister upon his deputy, Mr. Arthur MacNamara. I have had considerable dealing with Mr. MacNamara, but it has been by correspondence and I do not think I have ever met
	, |
him. Upon the presentation of the facts to him I have always found him ready to deal with them in a proper way.
The operation of labour offices has long been a matter of inquiry with me. I have followed their operation in Great Britain and continental Europe, and I have been specially interested in the opening of labour offices in this country under national selective service. I am glad to note that national selective service are now sending its staff employees into the different plants in order that they may determine, as far as one not actually a labour operator can, just what is being done, and be in a better position to advise applicants for employment. Some time ago I talked with a young woman in the Toronto selective service office and she told me about having been sent to visit a large plant. She was quite thrilled over it,' and she said that she felt herself better qualified and more competent after that and other visits to advise those making application for various types of employment. I can see how the personnel of the selective service are acquiring an experience which will be very valuable as time goes on.
In the great plant with which I was associated for many years we had workers of many races. There were Poles, Italians, Czechoslovakians, Ukrainians, Russians and others. At all times they were found to be capable workmen. I have been wondering if the people of these races have been given a place on the staffs of selective service branches. I often think of the people who were brought into this countiy from Europe. They built up this country to a greater degree than they are given credit for. At the commencement they were brought out by the large companies for one reason or another, perhaps because of a scarcity of labour, although I can not say yes or no to that. On account of their not being able to speak English, the positions they held always entailed hard work. I am glad to see that they are now getting above that and are taking a part in other activities in this country. I should like to know if these people have been given a part in an administrative way in the operation of these offices.
I am going to suggest to the minister that he should look over the administration of his predecessor, the late Hon. Norman Rogers. I had a very high regftrd for the former Minister of Labour. He was not onb' fully qualified; he was most capable in an administrative way. He was head of the department during the deep depression, and I remember his presenting a programme to the house some time before he had the sad ending that came his way. I have often thought that

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had he been permitted to live, perhaps the depression would not have got down as far as it did.
The minister mentioned Steep Rock. The development there has been due largely to the ability of the hydro electric power commission to do what it did to enable the promoters of this property to divert a river which was injurious to the property and upon which was a power plant producing about
10.000	horse-power and belonging to the Minnesota Ontario Power company. The hydro electric power commission of Ontario were able to say to the owners of that power plant that if they would agree to the river being diverted they would supply them with
10.000	horse-power, the utmost capacity they were able to develop. The Ontario hydro electric power commission were able to put another dynamo into operation at their Alexander plant on the Nipigon river and provide the power.
Because of its ability to develop large blocks of power the hydro electric power commission has been of tremendous help to this country in the carrying on of the war munitions task that faces us to-day. If things should get tough for the minister after the war, I suggest that his department interest itself in assisting the provinces to produce power in a big way. I suggest to him the possibilities of producing hydro electric power in the great central province of the west, Saskatchewan. While that province produces some power from coal at Estevan and other cities, the production of hydro power, if earned' on, is only in a small way.
The minister referred to old age pensions, and I should like to say one word about this. Years ago I supported a programme which was advocated in this house by the late leader of the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation, and one of his confreres, as well as a number on the then government side. This was not adopted by the government, since apparently they did not think they could get the money to carry it out. I advocated the reduction of the age limit to sixty-five years and the increasing of the contribution of the provinces, and that of the government from what is now called for by statute-S20 a month, plus what is given by the provinces, plus a war bonus-to at least a dollar a day.
The minister said something about apprentices. There, I believe, is a big field Anyone who has been associated with employment, in a big way, knows what a real system of apprenticeship in this country would do. Wp never had it. except in some of the
individual trades. I am going to suggest to the minister that between now and the next session, if this government remains in office for another year, he might prepare a programme of apprenticeship for Canada, and present it at that time. That is all I shall say about the minister's speech.
In reference to the subject of labour, itself, the minister will know that, in the years he has been acquainted with me, I have always been greatly interested in labour problems, having myself been associated with labour for many years. I have always taken the stand, and I shall never fail to take it, that the labour unions have had a much larger place in maintaining- harmony in labour ranks in Canada, and in the building up of our country, than they have been given credit for. It has been my experience that in the great majority of cases the heads of labour unions with which, when I reached the position of an executive, I had to deal were anxious to keep labour employed. I know that in more than nine cases out of ten they were anxious and willing to keep the members of their unions employed. They were not in favour of strikes. Only very rarely did a labour leader call for a strike, and then only under the greatest provocation.
Therefore I have always had a warm feeling for labour unions; and the whole labour movement from the earliest days has had a long, long struggle up, up, up, up, up, all the time, until to-day they have reached a position they never reached before. I believe it was away back in the eleventh century that what we now know as labour movements originated. They had their beginning in the early guilds, although at that time the guilds were not completely confined to labour operators, themselves, but took in various groups. Then, following the guilds came the craft unions, in the fourteenth century. In the beginning of the last century the modern labour union movement started in Great Britain, and had marvellous success. From that time on, down through the years of the last century, the work performed by great union leaders-and there have been some distinguished leaders-has been the basis of the present set-up with which the minister is so familiar, because I have no doubt that he was associated with labour unions in the old country.
I feel this way about labour unions: it was developed from guilds to crafts, and then to trade unions. Then in recent years we have found the principle of collective bargaining. I believe the former head of the labour movement in Canada, a man who commands high 'respect and who, I am pleased to know, is improving in health, must be mentioned in
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this connection. I believe it was in 1934 that Mr. Tom Moore-if I may speak of him lamiliarly-set out clearly and strongly the advantages of the principle of collective bargaining when he attended before the price spreads inquiry of that year. He was one of the early advocates of collective bargaining in Canada, and had to support him a bill which had been passed in the United States. Section 7A of the National Industrial Recovery Act of that country states, in part:
Employees shall 'have the right to organize and bargain collectively through representatives of their own choosing, and shall be free from the interference, restraint or coercion of employers of labour or their agents, in the designation of such representatives or in selforganization, or in other concerted activities for the purpose of collective bargaining.
From that time-and that was only ten years ago-until recently perhaps under the minister's term of office, the principle of collective bargaining has become fairly well established in this country. And I do not see why it should not be. The whole structure of plants has changed greatly in late years. Machines are automatic, and particularly those machines for the operation of which men had to be thoroughly trained. It used to take years and years of training to operate a lathe. It was one of the most complicated machines of that time. I must confess that I never could master the operation of the various gears in a lathe, so as to turn out work as it should be turned out. It was something at which I never became proficient.
To-day, however, that is largely done automatically. We find that now the single craft union in the big plant has lessened to such an extent that it really becomes necessary for the personnel of such plants, no matter what the crafts may be, to bargain together. To my mind that is the real principle of collective bargaining.
I say to the minister that the problem of employment after the war will be the responsibility of the Minister of Labour. That is in my judgment his primary duty or one of them. In the last few years, because of the operations of the Department of Munitions and Supply, and perhaps one other department, employment has got out of the minister's control. But after the war it will be his duty to look after it, and no doubt it will be back under his supervision.
I support what was said this afternoon by the hon. member for Greenwood (Mr. Massey), namely, that when the troops return, those who have not positions to go to and those who will not be employed in the armies accupying a relieved Europe, or are not required in our own armed forces, or are not training in col-

leges or schools, should be kept on the armed services rolls until positions are ready for them. If that is not done, the Minister of Labour will have a terrific job on his hands.
May I express further opinions about labour. Having served for many years with many hundreds of men, I have always had a warm attachment to the labouring man and his family. It would seem that labour has suffered all the distress, and unless a big change takes place in the attitude of the state toward the labouring man, his difficulties, trials and troubles, we shall not arrive at the point at which we should like to arrive, namely the elimination of the fear of want among labour and labour troubles.
Something was said yesterday about the reduction to fourteen years of the compulsory age limit at which children should be at school. I do not agree with that. It may be all right if, as we sometimes find in Toronto, a child of fourteen years has to procure employment, and gets it upon the request of his widowed mother or perhaps the request of a father who is unable to work. In Toronto the consent of the board of education must be obtained for children to leave school at fourteen years of age. I have known cases where this has worked out satisfactorily. Of course the board requires that the child shall attend night school for so many days a week until it reaches the age of sixteen. The lad who does that will want to continue even beyond that age. I do not think the school leaving age should be less than sixteen. I agree with what was said some time ago before the reconstruction committee by a group of educationists, namely, that every Canadian child-the child of the labouring man as well as of any other citizen-is entitled to the best education that can be given it up to at least sixteen years of age. What part the minister has in this I do not know, but I believe he should insist that children be kept at school until they reach the age of sixteen. After that, what is the boy or girl to do? I have seen many cases of lads put to work for which they w-ere not equipped. I wonder whether the minister has given any thought to a suggestion which is often made here, namely, the encouragement and extension of technical schools and vestibule schools associated with industrial plants, wherein lads who are leaving school can be trained in the industry, receiving some compensation for the returns they make to the company while in training, and the foremen, seeing what progress they made, could place them in positions in the plant itself where they could get better pay than they would probably receive if they started to

War Appropriation-Labour
work without any such special training. I strongly favour giving the sons of the workers an opportunity as soon as possible so to equip themselves as to obtain the largest possible remuneration.
I also suggest that the minister interest himself in the question of whether companies, great and small, should not be permitted to use part of their excess profits, at any rate when the war is over, for the reconstruction of their plants in order that working conditions may be healthier and pleasanter. I often think with regret of men spending their lives in large dingy factories, with dark greasy walls and floors, when the companies, if they were encouraged to do so by receiving part of the excess profits which to-day must necessarily be used for the war effort, would restore and recondition their plants to the great benefit of the workers. Surely the time is coming when every plant where men and women work should be as attractive as it can possibly be made. The time is past for men and women to operate all day long under disagreeable conditions which it would not be difficult to remedy. Then, why should not every plant management do as so many plants are doing to-day, namely, give their workmen and workwomen a period of rest in the forenoon and the afternoon? I know of many plants where this rest period is in effect; indeed, if I started to name them I would take too much time, besides running the risk of omitting to mention a great many others which no doubt are doing the same thing. I therefore would simply make the general statement that many plants to-day allow their employees, as they should, as relief from the constant application which modern fast moving machines require, fifteen minutes' rest in the forenoon and a similar period in the afternoon, giving them an opportunity to refresh themselves with a cup of coffee or a sandwich. I believe that practice should be general; it does not seem fair to have it applied to a certain number of plants when it is not applied in others, although I am informed that in those plants where the practice prevails the output per employee for a similar period is greater than in factories where it has not been adopted. But the rest period should be of general application; the time has come when all workmen and workwomen, and not merely some of them, should be treated with fairness and consideration.
As I understood the minister this afternoon, he said that labour is participating to a greater extent than ever before in membership of government boards and commissions. That is as it should be. I have observed in leading history that as the franchise has been extended, so labour has taken a greater
share in the world's business. I should like to see in this house many more labour men. By this I do not mean-and I say this without making reflections upon any party or person -those who call themselves labour men; I mean those who, like the minister, have worked for years and years at the bench or with the tools of their trade, not those who serve for a couple of weeks in the summer holidays at some manual occupation and talk from then on as if they know all about labour. I am not reflecting upon any group in the house when I say that I should be glad to see more labour people in it. We all know that the government of Sweden is represented as being perhaps one of the finest governments in the world. Whether this is so or not, anyone who studied the personnel of the present Swedish parliament knows that the government contains a larger percentage of downright labour men than the government of any other country. That is a credit to Sweden.
I should also like to see in the house a larger number of business men of the type of the hon. member for Victoria-Carleton, men who do big things, who make big business and give large numbers of men employment. I know it is almost impossible for a man to run a business and be in the House of Commons. Nevertheless, if we had more business and labour members the work of the house would be pepped up and we should get through much earlier than we do.
What is labour entitled to? First, security against unemployment, which means, of course, security of employment. The insecurity which labour has been up against all down the years is a main reason for the stresses and troubles which have developed between employer and employee. That should not be the case. Employer and employee should cooperate, and in that regard I should like to see-and I am glad to know that the practice is spreading all the time in the plants themselves-not only the management but those under the management rising from the ranks within the factory. That is gradually increasing to the good of the factories. I have experienced that myself and I know.
I have heard people denounce industry generally, but I could show hon. members many great plants in Toronto in which all those who are managing operations, from the manager, the assistant manager, the engineers and so on right down through the plant, have been educated so to speak in the plant itself m the particular line in which they are engaged. That is as it should be. Labour cannot do it alone, nor can capital accomplish this end alone. It takes the two together,
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both capital and labour, and each has its absolute rights. The rights are not all on one side or the other.
I feel that we have reached the stage where there should be just cooperation between management and labour in every plant and just cooperation between capital and all those engaged in the plant. May I suggest to the minister that after the war his great problem will be that of providing employment. The Minister of Pensions and National Health (Mr. Mackenzie) has spoken of a big programme that is to be put into effect after the war to produce employment. Well, personally I do not know of any big programme. The Minister of Pensions and Natioinal Health may know of one but I do not. At any rate it is the duty of the Minister of Labour to urge, as strongly as he can, on all the departments that may be concerned the preparation of plans for employment on a large scale after the war.
We all heard the speech delivered this afternoon by the hon. member for Greenwood. It was a brilliant speech in which he excelled himself, and he pointed out that the heroes coming back after the war will want positions. He said, and I am sure we all endorse his views, that no one is more entitled to positions than those men and women who will be discharged from the services. The Minister of Labour has, therefore, a tremendous job to see to it that somebody shall make preparations for the time after the war, because the war may end sooner than anyone expects.
We have not had any difficulty in raising billions to spend on the war-for what purpose? For the destruction not only of buildings, of property, of wealth in general, but, on a large scale, of human life. I do not think as much money will be required after the war, but should it be difficult to obtain billions, if needs be, to put our men and women to work at that time? I do not think so. 1 believe that if the minister and other members of the government do their part there will be no unemployment after the war. There should be no unemployment in Canada with our incomparable resources and the thousand and one opportunities which we have to-day to do what should have been done years ago during the depression.
1 trust that the Minister of Pensions and ^National Health, who has these plans either in his pocket or in his head, will tell the house one of these odd days just where we shall send
100,000	men and women to work after the war, Decause certainly we cannot return to the condition that existed in the days of the depression.
[Mr MacNicoI.]
My time is up, and I should like to conclude by summing up these remarks as to what labour should have.
1.	Certainty of employment.
2.	Healthy working conditions. Every man and woman in Canada should have such conditions of employment.
3.	Adequate compensation to enable labour to take care of their families, and if necessary, should they have no other means of doing so, lay by something for themselves for old age. They should be freed from the necessity, if they accept the old age pension, of surrendering the right to their homes. They are not asked to do so in Australia, in New Zealand, or in England, and I do not see why they should be asked to surrender their homes in Canada if they wish to accept old age pen- . sions.
4.	There should be compensation for unemployment. We have unemployment insurance, but it is not everyone who has such insurance. No one unemployed after the war should be in a position where he will not have any revenue coming in.
5.	There should be sick benefits for the people. There have been such benefits in England for many years.
6.	I think the time has come when labour should have a larger share in plant management, assisting the managers.
7.	They should have pleasant employer-employee cooperation.
8 There should be no lock-outs. Men should not have gates locked in their faces and be sent away. The minister, I believe, has in mind setting up some board that will ensure the elimination of such a condition.
9. If there are excess profits the men should have a part of them.
Finally, I hope the government will set up a real labour board. There are now fine men in the government service who are well trained and one of whom I have in mind. He writes a great deal in the labour press. I refer to Bernard Rose, K.C., of Montreal. There are many others like him qualified to sit on such a board, and the activities of such a board would in my opinion tend to eliminate the possibility of strikes.
Surely there should be governmental machinery to keep men working and to see that they get fair play and are not chased out of employment and locked out, suffering in consequence. The time has gone by when such a condition should exist. The time has come when labour should have fair play all along the line.

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Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: May I intervene in the debate for one minute.
I agree entirely with my good friend the hon. member for Davenport as to the nature of the address heard this afternoon from the hon. member for Greenwood. It was in every way a highly effective speech, but there was one part of it in which I crave permission to make a correction, because I am sure the hon. gentleman himself would be the first to assist me in doing so. He was speaking of our comrades overseas and he said that he does not like the present pension system. He thinks it is un-British in that the would-be pensioner is considered guilty until he is proved innocent, and by that he says he means that the onus of proof is on the applicant.
It is my duty, in a cooperative spirit, to correct that statement because it might be disturbing to those overseas and to their families as well if it went out in that form. The practice at the present time is this. _ On the first hearing the responsibility is definitely on the commission to show why an award of pension should not follow, and on the second hearing, in which of course the applicant can submit additional evidence to overcome obstacles that may occur, both at that hearing and before the appeal board, there is a duty and responsibility upon the commission to set out the reasons why pension is refused.
I will conclude by quoting, not the opinion of anyone, but what is the statute law of Canada. I do so because I do not think the statement which I have quoted should go out unchallenged. Section 62 of the Pension Act reads:
Notwithstanding anything in this act, on any application for pension the applicant shall be entitled to the benefit of the doubt, which shall mean' that it shall not be necessary for him to adduce conclusive proof of his right to the pension applied for, but the body adjudicating on the claim shall be entitled to draw and shall draw from all the circumstances of the case, the evidence adduced and medical opinions, all reasonable inferences in favour of the applicant.
This is statutory and mandatory. The hon. gentleman inadvertently used the term "unBritish". May I say to him in a kindly manner that our Canadian pension provisions are far superior to those that have been in existence in the old country, my native land, in the last twenty-five years.


Mr. ROSS (Souris):: May I ask the minister the date of that from which he has quoted?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The present Pension Act.


James Arthur Ross: What is the date of it? That was not the system in effect.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The administration may not have been strictly carried out to the letter of the law, but that is the way it works on the first and the second hearings and before the appeal board.


James Arthur Ross: It has not always been that way.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Oh, yes, for many years.


John Horne Blackmore: If it has always been that way and has worked out as unfortunately as it has in the past I do not know whether there is much comfort to be drawn from the minister's remarks.


James Arthur Ross: There is not.


Mr. DONNELLY:: What is the date?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: 1930, chapter 35, section 4.


Gordon Graydon: May I say to the minister that he may be able to read to the committee the letter of the law, but the spirit of the act has been criticized very fairly but perhaps not in the language that the minister would use. Nevertheless, it is the spirit in which the act has been administered that has led to the criticism of the hon. member for Greenwood this afternoon. When I spoke a couple of weeks ago I dealt with these matters in the hope that the minister would see that the very thing which the hon. member for Greenwood spoke of to-day would be carried out and that the whole philosophy of the pension commission and department would be changed so that what he suggests would be carried out.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: This is not the appropriate time to carry on p debate on this matter. There will be plenty of opportunities when my estimates are before this committee. I wish to tell my hon. friend that the spirit of the present commission is 100 per cent for the soldier. Six out of nine were privates in the line in the last war. Every one saw service. There is continuously a misrepresentation of this section 62. In every case where it is possible to do so the benefit is given to the applicant for pension, and it will be done as long as I have anything to do with the department,


Gordon Graydon: Is the minister himself satisfied that the administration of the Pension Act has been working out satisfactorily?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Of course, in any administration there are cases of hardship and cases of unfairness. There are bound to be. The spirit and the intent of the Canadian pension commission
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is to give the benefit of the doubt to every applicant. That is certainly my intent, as it is my hon. friend's.


Mr. GILLIS:: overcome to a large degree if labour were represented on such boards. Then again, labour is uneasy about cessation of production in certain lines, uneasy as to what is going to happen to it, or where or when, or whether a place is to be found for it in other activities. If labour had some advance notice, through its own representatives, a much better feeling would prevail and more confidence in government would result. To give labour representation on such boards as local selective service boards and deny it representation on policy-making boards is only to pay lip-service to an important principle.
I am absolutely in accord with that statement.
The minister stated this afternoon that he had, I think some hundred and fifty-


Humphrey Mitchell: The total is 352.


Clarence Gillis: -some 350 representatives of labour on different boards. I am not quarreling with that statement, nor do I dispute it because I do not know.


Humphrey Mitchell: That is a matter of record.


Clarence Gillis: I am taking the minister's word for it. The point I make is that by and large those representatives are acting in an ' administrative capacity. There is no labour representation on the policy-making bodies. Those labour representatives are placed in a position of having to administer legislation which they had no part in making. Be it good, bad or indifferent, they have to try to justify it. I know many of them have a difficult job to do in that connection. Until such time as the government is prepared to give the representatives of labour an opportunity of sitting on the bodies where the legislation is drafted, where there will be an opportunity of getting their opinion-


Humphrey Mitchell: May I say this to my hon. friend? You must be elected first. I think every' grown up man understands that.


Clarence Gillis: No, I do not. The legislation they are administering to-day is largely legislation by order in council. There are no elected representatives of the people drafting those orders in council.


Gordon Graydon: My hon. friend is suggesting that much of the legislation is initiated by order in council. I would suggest that there is only one representative out of nineteen where that is being done.


Clarence Gillis: I presume that is the minister. The minister said that you have to be elected.


Humphrey Mitchell: That is the hardest thing.


Clarence Gillis: I do not see it in that way. As I pointed out to the minister, most of the legislation is by order in council.


Humphrey Mitchell: You will find that out if you ever get over here.


Clarence Gillis: The members of this house are not writing those orders in council. The representatives of industry and business behind the scenes are taking good care of their own interests. The legislation is passed along to the labour representatives to try to justify it, and a lot of them are having a rather difficult job. If you can call in the heads of industry and give them an opportunity of saying what their needs are in drafting orders in council, why cannot you call in the representatives of labour and give them the same opportunity? I think you would have a lot less trouble with the legislation.


Humphrey Mitchell: We are doing that very thing every day in the week. My hon. friend should know that.


Clarence Gillis: I do not know that.. That is the reason why I am talking about it.


Mr MITCHELL:: You are out of touch with things.


Clarence Gillis: I am not out of touch; perhaps I am too closely in touch with things. That is not being done. The board that drafted that report made exactly the same observation and they were in position to find out. I do not think the men who sat on that board would make the observation they did in their report if the assumption of the Minister of Labour were correct. I still insist that if labour is to be expected to do a job of administration in the field, it should have some say in the writing of the legislation.
My next reference is to the wage control order 9384, which was later amended by order 1727. The latter order removed some of the objectionable features of the original order 93S4, but certain aspects still remained. The cost of living bonus was incorporated into the basic rates. I would not quarrel with that if the cost of living bonus were uniform, but it is not. The result is that many of the injustices which existed under the bonus an-angement were perpetuated when the bonus was absorbed into the basic rates. In many industries the basic rates were thrown completely out of line. I do not intend to argue that too long, because anyone who wants to get in touch with those who administer wage agreements will be able to find out for himself.
Under the wage order as it stands to-day the Department of Labour, through the war labour board, has set up more or less of a dictatorship in the matter of wages. However, I think there will be one beneficial result of this; it will force the unions to go into the

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question of national wage scales. By this order in council the government have attempted to regulate wages nationally, and they have practically fixed a minimum of thirty-five cents an hour. Restrictive measures are set out with regard to increases in wages. In order to get an increase you must prove that the rates are grossly unfair, but there is a little latitude if the rates are below thirty-five cents an hour. To me that means that a floor of thirty-five cents an hour is being placed under wages.
I think it is foolish for representatives of the workers to attempt to determine wage rates on a local or regional scale. I know what the mine workers are thinking about. They have been organized for a long time, and they are thinking in terms of national wage rates and of using their organization across Canada, in British Columbia, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Alberta. They are thinking in terms of a national conference and the fixing of a national and uniform wage scale for that industry. That is one thing this wage control order is precipitating in the interests of the workers of this country. I believe they will grasp the opportunity and attempt to lay down national minimums in the industries over which they have jurisdiction. Perhaps in years to come those who wrote that order for other purposes will realize that they were the force that organized the workers of this country 100 per cent in their industries and established national wage rates.
In the application of the order we must realize that those who administer it are to some extent tied in with the Department of Finance, because they cannot do the things with respect to increasing wages that they would like to do, without consultation with the wartime prices and trade board. That is something which is not generally understood, because the basic principle upon which the wage controls are set is the maintenance of the price ceiling, and the avoidance of inflation. I say this is definitely working a hardship, in that certain controls are there.
We will take as an example what is classified as a non-essential industry. I have an example before me. The salt miners at Malagash, Nova Scotia, made application to the national war labour board for adjustment in their basic rates, and their application was granted. I have the finding before me, but I shall not take time to read it. This is not a large industry; it employs probably 250 or 300 people. Nevertheless it is an industry in a province which has all too little industry. The operator claims he is not able to pay the award granted by the board, unless he is permitted
to increase the price of the commodity he sells. He has made application to the wartime prices and trade board for that permission, and he is refused. He is told quite frankly that he must operate in competition with those who are importing salt into that province. Thai is competition which cannot be met. As a result of an award by the war labour board to a small industry, an industry which is necessary but which is not able to compete with importers-and they are probably subsidized, so far as I know, in the same way as applies in connection with coal-that industry is likely to close. They also have another handicap in that they have to maintain a railway line of their own in order to get the salt out to the main line of the Canadian National Railways. No subsidy is granted by the government for the maintenance of that short line, but the Canadian National, which picks up the salt at a given point, is receiving a substantial subsidy for the handling of that commodity. The picture is badly tangled up, and I am bringing it to the minister's attention. The application has already gone through all the machinery provided by his department, and I ask that he use his influence with the wartime prices and trade board to break the deadlock which exists in an essential industry.
There is no such thing as a non-essential industry. These are essential industries in the peace-time set-up, if we are to have employment in this country. It is silly to classify our peace-time industries as nonessential. Those which are now described as essential industries will cease to exist when the war is over. The other industries are essential in the post-war, and the one to which I have referred is likely to go out of existence, because of the interlocking jurisdiction which arises in connection with relieving a situation which the war labour board has already said can and should be corrected.
The wage question is a difficult one, and I am not going to labour it to-night, because I have not time to do so. The minister knows it very well, and he knows it leaves much to be desired. There are people who believe that family allowances are a solution for the inadequate wage scale. I want emphatically to state that I do not believe that. Under no circumstances must family allowances be used for that purpose.


Humphrey Mitchell: I agree with my hon. friend.


Mr. DUPUIS:: We all agree.


Clarence Gillis: I am in accord with the principle of family allowances, but they should
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be carefully worked out. I have my own opinion as to what they should be, and at another time I shall put my opinion on record. It is my view that certain mechanics must be followed out. However, that is a story in itself, and I shall not take the time to go into it to-night.
I am going to make one plea for one class of wage-earners, namely the teachers. Teachers are frozen to their jobs; that is something that is not generally realized. If there is any personnel in Canada working for wages who are underpaid, certainly it is the teaching profession. Right across Canada they are not allowed to leave their jobs, and particularly is that so in the eastern provinces. They are working for as little as $150, $350 or $400- outrageous sums.
I have received resolutions in this connection, some of which have been discussed in the reconstruction committee. Nevertheless the situation still remains. The situation in that section of the province from which I come became so tense just recently that the teachers walked out on strike-and when teachers do that, conditions are pretty bad. They have sent to me a long, very reasonable and fair resolution, urging that something be done to correct the condition.


Vincent Dupuis: Would the hon. member
read it?


Mr. HANSON (Skeena):: Would not wages for teachers be a provincial matter?


Clarence Gillis: Yes, but the freezing of the teachers to their jobs is a federal responsibility.


Olof Hanson: But not the pay.


Clarence Gillis: No, except that if they were not frozen to their jobs they' would be able to shift around, and go somewhere else.


Vincent Dupuis: Not outside their province.


Clarence Gillis: The matter of wages is provincial. It is my personal view that the federal government should assume a greater share of responsibility in the establishment of adequate wage rates for teachers right across Canada. I believe that ultimately the federal authorities will have to have a greater say in the whole matter of educationist least I hope they will. It certainly has been most inadequate in every respect, under the jurisdiction which has had control. The resolution is lengthy, and I shall not take time to read it. However, it is a straight plea for the federal government to recognize their position, and it is suggested that by granting a subsidy or in some other way, with the cooperation of the provinces and municipalities, an endeavour should be made to recognize their problem.
rMr. Gillip.l
with a view to curing it. That is about the substance of the resolution. This one comes from a section of the teachers' federation, and there are many others from other groups. I am leaving that thought with the minister. His department has definitely entered the field of education, and I am reasonably sure there are people in that department who will take up the cudgel on behalf of the teacher.
The second point about which I would speak is that of selective service. Selective service is an organization which in my opinion requires some jacking up. At the head of it, in the minister's department, he has some of the most capable men in the country, and they are doing a very good job with, in my view, some inadequate machinery at the bottom.
The part of selective service in which I am interested to-night affects those who have the first approach to the employee seeking employment. I refer to those who give the initial interview. A boy returns from overseas, or a worker from an industry from which he has been transferred approaches selective service.
I know that mostly the approach is made in an antagonistic frame of mind. They have the feeling that they are being pushed around. The person whom they first meet, with whom they have the initial interview, is one of the most important factors in the whole set-up. His job is not a clerk's job, not one which can be handled by someone you can pick off the street because he can write down a name or read a form. Those who give this first interview should be carefully trained; they should be of the type you have on your army indue- ' tion boards, people with some knowledge of human nature, people who can question an applicant and get some idea of his aptitude for a particular line of employment. Selective service is. in fact, something to sell; the customer is the person who is seeking employment; the person who interviews him is just as important as the person you send on the road to sell a commodity for you. He must have some knowledge of the job he is doing.
Things are not working out that way now. Most of the complaints and criticisms I get in discussing the matter with those who have a grievance against selective service arise from the feeling that they are not being treated courteously; that the tendency is to get rid of them as fast as possible or to push them off to something for which they are not suited. The tendency has been to take the ablest men and put them in top positions as administrators, with the idea that these subordinate positions are just clerks' jobs which anybody can handle. The idea is wholly -wrong; it is here that you need personnel who can sell the service to a customer who is wanting to buy something.

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Justifiable complaint has arisen as to the handling of some of the problems. I might mention particularly the routing of the miners back to the coal mines from other industries. One such case, which I think is known to the deputy minister, is that of an employee at the Ford plant at Windsor. He is called in under the order and is told he must go back to his original employment. He is sent to Edson, Alberta, where there is no work for him; he cannot qualify; he has not miner's papers in that province. He was sent out as a rock driller and rock drillers are not required. Accordingly, he is sent back to Windsor. Upon his arrival there he is shipped off to Nova Scotia. Having worked for a short time there, he is examined, declared unfit, and returned to Windsor again. Meanwhile his family is trailing him. He is now w'orking at Windsor. His complaint is that none of the time lost en route to Alberta, back to Windsor, or to and from Nova Scotia, was paid for. His family was uprooted, and he is still separated from them, his wife and children being in Nova Scotia while he is at Windsor. Over a period of months I have tried to obtain payment for him for that uprooting. I met this man and took the matter up with the department at Ottawa. They immediately started action, but they have to check with the authorities in Alberta, in Nova Scotia, and in Windsor, and they are still checking.


Mr.   CHAIRMAN@: Order. The hon. member has now spoken for forty minutes.


Clarence Gillis: I will finish up in just a
few minutes, Mr. Chairman.


Vincent Dupuis: That man must be a commercial traveller selling C.C.F. ideas.


Clarence Gillis: Perhaps, when selective service regulations come in. it might be preferred that I speak for another forty minutes on it.
I have just this to say. The Department of Labour is, in my opinion, the most important war department of government and the most important post-war department. I am not concerned about the machinery which has been set up but with the objective behind that machinery. I trust that those who have the responsibility of administering the department, whether in respect of selective service regulations, unemployment insurance, wage controls, or any other phase of their work which relates to post-war problems, will not have that same psychology which permeated our national life a few years ago, when a certain gentleman who used to sit in this house made the statement that, in order to keep your economy in balance, you must have a shifting,
mobile labour reserve, one hundred thousand or one hundred and fifty thousand unemployed, to be moved from one part of the country to another at will. I hope that will not be the prevailing complex.


Humphrey Mitchell: Who was that?


Clarence Gillis: The Right Hon. R. B.
Bennett. That was his philosophy. That was the cure for the whole problem, that shifting, mobile labour reserve. Just recently over the air we got it in this form from the bankers' association, "Full employment is incompatible with the spirit of free enterprise, which has a right to a normal flow of unemployment."


Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: What is the
hon. member quoting from?


Clarence Gillis: This is from one of our daily papers.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Taken from
a bankers' broadcast?


Clarence Gillis: A bankers' broadcast. While the minister and, I believe, most of his officials are honestly trying to do what they can, the thing to keep in the back of their minds is the object for which orders in council are made, the purpose for which the economy of the country is organized, the right of the fellow who comes'back to his job, of which the hon. member for Greenwood spoke. All these things are not possible if what I have pointed out is to be the philosophy behind our post-war planning.


Gordon Graydon: I would ask the hon.
member the source of his quotation. I should be very much interested in any person who would make a statement of that kind.


Clarence Gillis: It is from one of our
newspapers.


Gordon Graydon: Perhaps the hon. member will give it to me privately. I cannot conceive of any person making such an observation in this enlightened age.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: The hon. member should listen to the bankers' broadcast.


Mr. McIVOR:: In rising to speak on this
question I think of my neighbour the late member for Kenora-Rainy River, Mr. Hugh McKinnon, who always made his outstanding speech when the Department of Labour estimates were up for consideration. I should like to pay my tribute to that gentleman, who was once suggested to occupy the position of Minister of Labour. When we think of
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him not only as a friend of labour but a friend of anyone in need, that takes away much of the sadness that we feel in our loss.
I go back farther than the hon. member for Davenport in getting to the foundation on which labour is built. He went back to the eleventh century, but I go back long before that time to the day when Adam, the first man, thought he could get a thrill out of breaking the law as his wife did, and the penalty was imposed upon him in the words, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread." From that day to the present time the individual or the nation that fails to honour that law must pay for it. As you look back you can see Macedonia falling a victim to the dishonour of the worker. Greece caught that spirit from Macedonia and they, too, failed, placing great honour in citizenship and dishonour upon the toiler. Rome caught the same spirit and, too, declined. We in this country are reminded by a distinguished man from the city of Toronto, from which some fine things come, that the country is not ruled by money but by labour. We know how true that is or how true it ought to be.
We to-day honour labour as it was never honoured before. As some of you take your minds back to the time when that very fine lady laid the corner-stone of the supreme court building, you will recall that she did not just lay that stone and then walk away. She invited the man on the scaffolding to come down as he was dressed in his overalls, and I am sure she gave him a smile that he would never forget. Thereby our present Queen Elizabeth honoured labour.
Let me go back a little bit in the history of the Department of Labour. The first deputy minister of labour is at present in the city of London, England, and he will be there to help to direct affairs so that the man who toils or the man who is the friend of the toiler shall get a square deal. The Department of Labour was first organized in 1900 under the direction of the grandfather of the Postmaster General. The first deputy minister was our present Prime Minister, and the first Minister of Labour was the same man. I would like as briefly as I can to give the committee a few of the performances of that Minister of Labour. Between 1896 and 1911 there were many outstanding acts of parliament passed in the interest of the man who toils. There was the Conciliation Act establishing the department and providing for conciliation by officers of the Department of Labour. There were the Industrial Disputes Act, the Railway Labour Disputes Act, the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act, the Alien Labour Act, and on July 13, 1906, there was the
[Mr. Mclvor.l
Lord's Day Act, which gave a man the right to rest from his labours on the Sabbath, ensuring to him the right to one day in seven. That was one of the greatest boons to labour. Then there was the Fair Wage Act in 1900.
I can remember very well that in 1922 there was the amalgamation of the Grand Trunk Railway with the Canadian National Railways. The Grand Trunk railway workers were deprived of pension and seniority following the strike of trainmen in 1910 and this was restored by the Prime Minister in 1922. Then there was the act dealing with the Winnipeg post office workers. I must admit I had a hand in that because I felt they were wronged, while I did not come out very strongly in the open because I was timid. The Winnipeg postal employees were required, after the strike of 1919, to accept the minimum rates of wages for new men guaranteed rates payable for work done by statute in 1929. This was amended and they got pay and seniority as usual.
In 1917 the Immigration Act was passed whereby the minister was empowered to deport any person deemed to be advocating violence or sedition except those who were British subjects by reason of birth in Canada or naturalization in this country. This was repealed in 1929 and the section made to apply to those who are not Canadian citizens. This to me was a generous act. Then in 1922 an act was passed restricting Chinese immigration and the members from British Columbia, I suppose, would wish that the Japanese had been restricted in the same way.
Labour was given representation in 1922 upon the board of the Canadian National Railways, and Tom Moore, a man we respect very much, was appointed a member of the board. The order issued by Mr. D. B. Hanna in 1920 prohibiting employees of the Canadian National Railways from standing as political candidates was withdrawn by Sir Henry Thornton in 1922.
In 1922 we had the Dominion Government Policemen's and Firemen's Act and in 1922 we had the Public Service Retirement Act. We had the Government Employees' Compensation Act in 1925. In 1924 a committee of the House of Commons was appointed to consider the subject of industrial and international relations. The suggestion was supported by the late member for Winnipeg North Centre. There was another act in which I was interested and which in my opinion has done good work for the protection of the worker. I refer to the act concerning union labels. Wherever you see a union label you know that the piece of work on

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which it is found is good, honest work. That protects the working man and helps to keep him in his job.
The fair wage policy was adopted in 1900. Government departments are required to furnish monthly to the Department of Labour reports giving information as to contracts entered into during the preceding month. This is under the fair wage policy adopted in 1900. Then there was the Technical Education Act in 1919. Following representations made by labour bodies to the government in 1936, the legislation was repealed whereby unlawful associations were declared against civil liberty and against the birthright of the people. I can remember standing in this house and making my first speech against section 98 of	the criminal	code. I	do	notknow whether	I had much	influence	or	not,but I was on	the side of right and	we	wonout. Then in	1908 we had	the Government
Annuities Act, and we had the Home Improvement Act in 1937. Now we are coming close to home. In 1939 the criminal code was amended, and you can visualize standing over yonder the late Minister of Justice, the Right Hon. Ernest Lapointe; he was the one who *fathered the amendment to the criminal code which makes it a criminal offence for an employer to dismiss or to refuse to employ a worker for the sole reason that he is a member of a trade union. I have had experience, and experience does count. I remember an occasion in the city of Fort William when a man was dismissed for union activities. Perhaps he made some mistakes, but he was reinstated, and the man who dismissed him moved on.
The Unemployment Insurance Act of 1940 will stand out as a monument to the former Minister of Labour. We have many war regulations, but it wall be admitted that the outstanding piece of labour legislation that has been passed by any government in Canada is the war legislation called the labour code. It wall be remembered that when an order in council was brought in restricting wages, hon. members from all sides of the house, Liberals and those who are not, opposed that restriction and the code was amended. The seven amendments that were made to the wages control order are beautiful reading to me.
Then we have labour management. That is something to which we all agree. We agree that there should be cooperation between labour and management. It is only fair, because not all the brains of industry are confined to the office and managing staff. The man who toils has practical common sense and can see the thing to be done far better than the man in the office.
We pass on and think of the fact that during the past year men were granted holidays with pay. During the past year 600,000 men received holidays with pay. This is a great boon to the man who toils and it is to the credit of the first deputy minister of labour. Then we have labour representation on the wages control board, the cost of living bonus, and so on. When a man wishes to go from one job to another, if he asks the superintendent of selective service for permission, he is protected. He does not lose his job, neither does he lose his unemployment insurance card. He can be reinstated. I shall not take up the time of the committee to speak of the health and recreation facilities that were made available, the care that was taken of the toiler in the war production plants. I could speak of the comfort that mothers who have to work get from the assurance that their children are well taken care of.
I have a question to ask the Minister of Labour, and I should like him to consider it very closely. I do not think it is in the labour code. Should not those who work on a job, no matter what kind of job, be paid equally? There are some jobs that a man can do better than a woman. There are some jobs that a woman can do better than a man. I think a man would make a better policeman or fireman than would a woman, but a woman makes a better nurse. I have found that when male nurses' were employed they were paid better than the women. There are jobs and w'ork that are suitable to each. If the same work is done by a man or a woman they should have the same pay. That is only fair. If a woman does the same work as a man is doing, who gets the advantage if the pay is not equal? It is certainly not the man; neither is it the woman; it is the employer. I suggest to the Minister of Labour that the same pay be given for the same work, no matter whether it is done by a man or a woman.
Labour in Canada has its difficulties. The labouring people are just like lawyers. They may quarrel among themselves, but when they have a common cause then they can work together. You have seen lawyers fight like everything in a court and then go out and enjoy refreshments together. I think that is very much like labour to-day. When they have a common cause they will forget their differences and fight their common enemies. When I think of the growth of labour in Canada I am extremely proud of being associated with them. I have had a lot to do with them. I think the man who toils to-day is a credit to Canada. Labour has done an outstanding job in war production.
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But the problem will arise after the war. We have some prophets who tell us there will be great unemployment after the war. I do not believe a word of it. With our present Minister of Labour and Minister of Munitions and Supply I do not think that will ever come. Of course, if others take their places I may not be so confident. But every man should have a job and every effort should be made to see that he gets one. I hope I shall never see the occasion arise when the men have to ride the rods again. If they ride the rods I will ride with them, because we have enough in this country to satisfy the needs of everybody here and a great many more if we can get them to come here.
I pay my tribute to the Department of Labour because I go in and out among its officers. I find a great many of them, are saturated with the desire to help the men who toil, and most of them have in their vest pocket a union card.


Thomas Langton Church: It is not often that I have to follow in a church a pulpit orator like the hon. member who has preceded me. I may say if I were a pulpit orator I hope that I would draw a better audience than we have here to-night, because once upon a time I have drawn audiences of three, four and five thousand people.
We have on the government benches to-night eleven on one side, and five on this side. We have here about me eleven or twelve Conservatives and there are five members of the C.C.F. party, two of the Social Credit party and one who' is Acting Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada. The members are tired of long debates. I am sure the hon. member who is acting as Attorney General, sitting in the seat of the learned hon. Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada will do a great deal to set things right.


Mr. GARDINER:: This is the first Friday night that the hon. member has been here.


Thomas Langton Church: It is not. I have been here the last three Friday nights. I am not in the habit of addressing audiences of this size. I wish to say to the Department of Labour that I have been a consistent supporter of labour all my life. During my long public career, which I started in 1905 as an alderman in the city of Toronto, I have always had and maintained the consistent support of the overwhelming majority of the labour people of the city from which I come. Along with my late leader in the province we fought for the public ownership of light, power and transportation, and we enjoyed the support of a large part of the labour of that province
[Mr. Mclvor.l
which was. engaged in that fight. The attainment of that objective brought joy to the cities and towns of Ontario and to the industrial workers and farmers. Cheap electrical power and light were made available to nearly all the farms.
I have never been one of those who thought they know something about this problem; far from it. I look upon the House of Commons as a sort of gentlemen's club where everybody has divergent views. As long as they express them sincerely and clearly I have no quarrel with them; far from it. I always listen to hon. members with a great deal of respect.
I have no quarrel with the Department of Labour, which the present minister took over at a critical time. If only we had had organized national selective service at the beginning of the war we would have been far better off; but unfortunately we did not; we did not adopt the policy that was followed in the mother country, where they were just a few minutes away from the bases for the planes which carried the bombs that nearly engulfed civilization. The mother country went it alone for two years, and with the aid of the glorious young men whe flew her planes she saved civilization. The working class and all other classes in Britain rallied to the colours and saved the world.
I repeat, it was most unfortunate that we did not have national selective service from the beginning, because the people of Canada were simply looking for leadership which they were not given. The country was not prepared for war, and perhaps the government were not prepared to go the distance they should have gone. In my view the entire situation was handled very badly for the first two years of the war. I never quarrel with the officials of a government department, because, after all is said and done, the backbone of any government, whether federal, provincial or municipal, is the permanent officials who advise the heads of departments, and we have a most able body of officials, who are loyal, sincere public servants of Canada and a credit to this country.
I have some respectful criticism to offer, but first may I say to the learned hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre, who is one of our best pulpit orators, that it is not usual for one orator to talk to another pulpit orator, especially when it is the Church that is speaking. I have great respect for hon. gentlemen down in the corner; they are becoming the pride of the haberdashers, but perhaps some of the things I have to say will be of interest to thc-m. I do not like to see returned soldiers in the city from which I come going about trying to find someone to advise them

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as to what they should do. One or two of the newspapers have been criticizing that situation. I have had a great dead of confidence in the present deputy minister of labour since he cleaned up the dependency situation; I have often praised what he did in that connection in 1940, during the darkest hours of the battle of Britain. He comes from Winnipeg. he admits that, but it should not be held against him. I wish to point out to the minister, as I pointed out to his predecessor, that if I were a soldier coming coming home I would rather go and see a clergyman than go to some of these government offices. To-day I believe the average clergyman is doing a great deal of social work; I know the clergy of the diocese of Toronto, and that is so as far as they are concerned. When our soldiers go to the selective service offices trying to get jobs, the clerks have not time to interview them; they are sent home and told to come back the next day. I would far rather go to the office of a clergyman, because he could tell me where to go; probably he would know some of the aldermen or some members of parliament. In fact, some clergymen are great admirers of the Minister of Pensions and National Health, the master of ceremonies of the house. I sometimes think of him as the Beau Brummel of the cabinet, but around eleven o'clock at night he becomes the master of ceremonies and tells us in a most genial manner what we are to do the next day.
I want to point out to the government in all seriousness that it is not fair to expect returned men to travel all over the city looking for employment; many times they have to walk because they have no car tickets. There should be some solution to this difficulty. If national selective service cannot handle them, turn the job over to the municipalities so that these men may be looked after. Why should a poor soldier just off the train have to come home to his wife and family and say, "Well, I was down town and called at two or three departments, but they told me to come back again tomorrow." I hope that situation will be remedied. There should be no necessity for these men to keep going back; some other system should be introduced. After the last war there was a great deal of trouble in this connection, and unless we bestir ourselves I am afraid we shall have the same trouble after this war. We have heard a good deal about reconstruction. I would remind the minister that even now some industries in the United States are being converted to peace-time work. I am not altogether satisfied with our stay-at-home army of sixty or seventy-five or one
hundred thousand men; we have had various estimates as to the size of it. If these men are required only for home defence many of them should be returned to industry, because in my opinion there is no such thing as home defence. Wars are won by soldiers, sailors and airmen at the scene of combat; that is where they are useful. I know many men who have been called up and sent all the way across the country, at vast cost to the government. Every train is crowded with men, some of them travelling from Vancouver to Halifax. That is a nice ride, I must admit. I have made that journey only twice; I have no time for rides. We waited until the third year of the war before bringing in national selective service, but now a great deal of money is being wasted. According to government reports, in 1941 the Canadian National received $2,500,000 and the Canadian Pacific was paid $2,750,000. It is just a waste of money transferring men from work with which they are familiar to work they know nothing about, and during the coming year I believe this matter should be looked into.
As I said, some industries in the United States have begun the conversion to peacetime production. They are not slackening their war effort, but they find that in some products they are overstocked and that the demand has ceased for others. In Washington the other day they wanted to get two million electric toasters, but they did not know to whom they should give the order, since the production of toasters has been curtailed for the last year or two. Finally they decided to place the order on the quota system. So far I have not heard of anything being done in Canada to convert our industry from a war-time to a peace-time economy. We must not forget that it has been a basic principle of economy ever since the early Roman days that after a great war each countiy must look after its own people first. After that is done they can begin to talk about international affairs. We have a committee on reconstruction, but they are building too many castles in the air. At the present time we have facing us a list of bills which will keep us here until Christmas; we shall not be out of these trenches until_ then. Before we get through here we shall be going down to Sparks street to buy a few Christmas presents, though no doubt the government will not be able to get through many of the bills which are proposed. A lot of them are only castles in the air. When we are talking about social security and reconstruction we must not forget that after the war this country is going to be desperatejy poor.
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We have squandered our national resources at an awful pace and the result is that the people of this country will have a tremendous debt to pay. The state has no money for all these things. Where is the state to get the money? One would think they were able to mine tons of gold from the north country to pay for all these items of reconstruction and nostrums that are being proposed. I have been a Christian socialist all my life, and I supported the people in Ontario who advocated these measures long before the C.C.F.
When the war is over we shall have to go back to the old way of life. They are getting back to it in England. They have what they call the trade war practices act which is putting industry, large and small, back to where it was without all these controls, back to where it was before the war. Wholesale and retail business are beginning to get together. People seem to think the state is going to pay for all these things, but the fact is that generations yet unborn will have to help to pay for them. I believe in the principle of private enterprise. It has not failed, although it has made some mistakes and will, no doubt, have to clean house. It is doing as much as it can in the way of paying for these things. If we gave private enterprise a chance it would be our best source of employment after the war and do more to reestablish things than anything else.
They had a meeting a short time ago in the city hall at Edinburgh, Scotland, with thirteen speakers in the morning and fourteen in the afternoon. That is a total of twenty-seven, much better than we are doing here. They talked about reconstruction, and the statement was made that the home is gone. Some of the socialists claimed that the state would have to take the place of the home. The moderator of the Presbyterian church spoke at that meeting. I have heard two or three moderators once in a while because I am a moderate myself. The moderator told them about delinquency and all that kind of thing which was caused by the young people not having work to do. He told them that necessity was the mother of invention and that the homes should be reestablished. I think he was quite right in what he said.
In the early, days this country was settled mainly by people from the British isles. The English and French got along well together because, as a rule, they were poor people. They hewed down the forests of Ontario, Quebec and other parts of this country. They did not have any of the things that are proposed to-day to be done by the state. The state cannot do anything unless it is paid
[Mr. Church J
for by the taxpayers. Are you going to raise the income tax? Are you going to put more taxation on the business man? The minister should look into the coal situation and the national fuel supply which was brought up by the Conservatives in 1921.
There is also the question of housing. We have been told that this is not an emergency. Then there are the questions of food and civil aviation. Russia will require generators and other electrical goods after the war. Our shipbuilding plants will have to be kept going. There are many other things that will have to be done. The reconstruction committee has done a lot of hard work, and I know the members of that committee have given a great deal of time and attention to their task.
I referred the other day to the Atlantic charter. Before this reconstruction can go on any further we shall have to decide some things first. We shall have to decide what we are going to do about the imperial preference, about favoured nation treaties and things like that. The Atlantic charter provides expressly for imperial preference. We shall have to decide about lower tariffs. In my opinion there will always be tariffs. It is all very well to talk about things, but we should wait until we see what happens at the peace table. Why should we throw away our best customer, the mother country, for others when we do not know what they will buy? The mother country has always been our best customer for grain and many other things. I believe we should stick to the empire which is our best customer.
Reference has been made to certain other matters, one of which is national selective service. I do not think we are getting the results we should for the money we are spending. The vote last year was $9,800,000, whereas this year it is $11,000,000. We should get some results for this money. When one looks over the list of men I think some of them might just as well be back in trade and commerce and industry and agriculture instead of our spending all this money upon them. They should be ready to return to industry unless they are prepared to fight the battles of this country at the front.
The minister, his deputy and others have been attending a convention. I have no objection to this, since I think they deserve a holiday because of the way they have worked. However, I do not think we should be considering international socialism when we do not know who is going to win the war. This convention at Philadelphia is part of the old League of Nations, now defunct. I support the international labour convention. This house has never voted any money for it. I

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never was a believer in the League of Nations because I think it was one of the things that caused this war. I cannot see just what good that meeting at Philadelphia will do because we do not know where we stand. Until the war is won, the war is primary. I am in favour of having conferences with the empire first of all. I think these international labour bodies will have a mission in the world to come. We hope it will be a better world for the working classes.
Something has been said about the Conservative party. The Progressive Conservative party was the pioneer, in both federal and provincial fields, with nearly all the social legislation we have in this country. They were the first to advocate the public ownership of our light, power and transportation facilities. They set up a national system of railways and they have advocated the development of water power for the benefit of the Canadian people. Ontario gave the public the workmen's compensation act, and many other statutes. It was the Conservative party in this house which in 1921 proposed a national system of unemployment insurance, prison reform, health insurance, and other social measures such as old age pensions and a national fuel policy. I had resolutions with respect to those things myself, in 1921, when I was first elected to the house.
It cannot be denied that in Canada and in England Conservative members of the House of Commons have worked for all these institutions. It cannot be denied that the Progressive Conservative party in this country and the Conservative party in the old country have produced a long line of great statesmen who have known how to tread the middle path of ordered progress and to sow a political harvest which subsequent generations of our empire have reaped a thousandfold. After every war we have brought about reconstruction and all that kind of thing.
It was Clarendon who restored Church and King on the basis of those admirable and incomparable laws of government; Danby who founded the party system; Edward Seymour who, by sponsoring the Act of Settlement, paved the way for the Protestant succession; Harley whose practice led to the adoption of the principle that the crown acts through responsible ministers; William Pitt the younger who revived the idea of the strength of parliamentary government when compared with the rule of the terrorist mob, and who gave the world and his country a priceless legacy of British opposition to arbitrary government and dictatorship; Peel who brought free trade to his country and converted the middle classes to Conservatism; Shaftesbury who stirred the
conscience of his party on the urgent need for social reform; Disraeli who linked imperialism with democracy and issued his resounding appeal for the "two nations" of rich and poor to unite; Randolph Churchill, who in a brief life of intense activity gave colour and direction to the policy of conservative democracy; Joseph Chamberlain who fought for imperial trusteeship and brought idealism into imperialistic economics; Baldwin and Neville Chamberlain whose financial "revolution" gave new life to British industry in the thirties and unconsciously paved the way in no small measure for the mighty war effort of the forties; Winston Churchill who led the country in its finest hour. Those are some of the men. And I can tell you this, that the ranks over there in the mother country are filled with young Conservatives who can take their places.
So far as this particular bill-of-fare of the minister is concerned, there is a great deal of good in it. I agree with much of what was said by the hon. member for Cape Breton South. I agree with what he has said about education. A great mistake has been made there. I began public life by serving on a school board, and I know something about the low salaries of public school teachers. The mistake made at the time of confederation was that education was not made concurrent. There should have been concurrent jurisdiction, because it is the duty of the government to look after the health, peace, prosperity and success of its people, and especially of the rising generation. The government did give a lead with respect to technical education. I am surprised to hear the hon. member say that in his municipality salaries have been as low as $150. I believe in Toronto our high school teachers are paid as much as $4,000.
I am glad to see that the minister is providing some money for universities, in connection with medicine and dentistry. I hope there may be some amendment. Probably the minister is going a little too far when he asks these students to get fifty per cent of their marks on their examination, on penalty of not being allowed to continue. There will be a great scarcity of doctors. And, by the way, I see a very fine doctor sitting over here, a university man, who graduated from the medical school of the university of Toronto. I can remember the hon. member's name, but I do not remember his seat. Sometimes I remember the seat, and do not remember the name. The late Minister of Justice had great difficulty in remembering the name of the constituency of the hon. member for Greenwood. He could not remember that it was Greenwood, but after the speech made by
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the hon. member for Greenwood to-day, I am inclined to think there it not much "green" about it.
I do hope the minister will revise the provision with respect to universities, which states that only those who get fifty per cent or more of their marks can go back to school. Let us not forget that some of these young people have brothers at the front. These boys who are at school now are the junior members of their families, and many of them work all summer in order to get enough money to pay their school fees.
I agree with what has been said by the hon. member for Cape Breton South, and the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre, with respect to low salaries. Some of those boys have to work hard to scrape up enough money to go to university. They are poor boys, from poor families, but they are most brilliant graduates. I know that the most brilliant graduates the university of Toronto has had from her school of science have had to work all summer to earn their fees. I hope something will be done to amend that regulation before it is too late.
I see my friend the hon. member for Trinity (Mr. Roebuck) who was at one time attorney general of Ontario. I believe the university of Toronto is dear to his heart. He knows about this condition, and I am just pointing out to the minister that there should be some revision in the university course by allowing these boys who have to work to earn their fees to pass their examinations without too great difficulty. Some of these boys have brothers and sisters engaged in war work; the fathers of some of them are at the front, and it is my hope that some amendment will be made. We need all these young engineers, young doctors and young dentists, and I do not see how they can complete their courses in the time allowed to them. It would be my hope that there might be some meeting arranged to look into this matter. The deputy minister, who has done a great deal for the universities, did, I understand, have a meeting with university officials. I hope he will see fit to revise this legislation before next fall.
I hope something may be done along the lines of a national coal supply. There may be some other "church" members here to-night. I notice the hon. member for Fort William (Mr. Mclvor)-probably he is one-is going to take another pulpit, and probably will preach twice in one evening. But I think he has departed for this evening. I have no hymn to announce to close the prayer meeting, but I do want to say that if this is the bi!l-offMr. Church.]
fare, then I do not see much in it for the average working man, when he comes home from war.
After all is said and done, the young men who come back from this war may never live normal lives again. Every day I receive letters from parents who have lost their sons. Just to-day I received half a dozen of them. These are young people who have been killed, young men of eighteen or nineteen years, who a year ago were going to high school. It is an awful thing to think about. To-day I was told about two young boys who were killed, and who had been going to McGill university in the fall of 1940 and 1941. Now they are killed. There have been about 860 from the high schools of my city alone.
I hope that when our men get back from the war we shall have something practical as a bill-of-fare to give them. I have dozens of them who come to see me every week-end. They' are very much disappointed. I cannot [DOT] tell them to whom they should go, because I do not know. We are not supposed to know where all those offices are. I hope the minister will see if this procedure cannot be simplified, with the cooperation of the provinces and the municipalities.
I had anticipated that the hon. member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker) would have been ready to go on to-night.


James Arthur Ross: He is here, anyway.


Thomas Langton Church: But if he is not here I
will call on the hon. member for West Kootenay (Mr. Esling).
I think my time is almost up, and I notice the attorney general is looking at me. I can only say this, that while I wish to give the government independent support, I must say that a great many mistakes are being made. Of course I know a great many mistakes will be made, but I do hope the minister will hearken to some of the handwriting on the wall before it is too late. I hope he will not be taking people out of jobs for which they are fitted, and put them to work chopping down trees. What good would we be at chopping down trees, except to get some new timber for a platform. That is all I can see in this chopping down of trees, when there is no pulpwood, and even the publisher of the Chicago Tribune will have to trim this log cutting and reduce the size of his paper if we go on in this wray.
As I see it, there is no use in taking young people out of drug stores and grocery stores and sending them up to New Ontario to chop down trees. We know what we did before. I remember when the Grenadiers and the

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Footguards and the Queen's Own marched across lake Superior at 44 degrees below zero-men taken out of stores, clerical people and the like, under the command of Colonel Dennison: they saved this country from dis-intigration, and not one red cent have they got from that day to this. I would add a reference to the fine battalion from Lunenburg, Nova Scotia; I saw them at the foot of Jarvis street when I was only knee-high. In those days there was a large number of public houses around the city hall, at the foot of Jarvis street, which distributed sandwiches and glasses of beer to the boys; but when the soldiers came back they never received any pay; that was the sort of treatment which was given to the veterans in those days. I hope that this time and in the days to come there will be a different way of treating those who serve the country; and I am not in favour of this idea of sending this class of people out to chop down trees.


Mr. GERSHAW:: I wish to draw to the attention of the minister a few facts about those who are labouring with the sick in this country. Of about 11.000 doctors in Canada, some 4,000 have been inducted into war service, and this has made things very difficult for the remainder who are working with the civilians. Many of these doctors are overworked and cannot possibly attend to all who require their services, and in large districts there are no doctors at all. This is a serious situation, especially with the shortage of gasoline, tires and means of transportation. The action taken by national selective service in assigning some doctors who are in uniform to these rural districts and giving them support was a move in the right direction, and it should be extended, so that there will be less suffering through lack of medical care in the far distant areas of this country.
In the nursing and hospital situation there is also a shortage of assistance. I recently read, in the book entitled, "Canadian Hospitals," of April, 1944, that although there is a long waiting list of patients desiring to enter two sanatoria, 168 beds in those two hospitals are being kept idle because of a shortage of nurses and orderlies and assistants in those hospitals. That condition applies to other hospitals in the country, and it is a serious matter, because if a tubercular patient is kept out of hospital he or she is a serious menace, because of the nature of the disease, to those who are attending that patient. More than that, surgical procedure -will often cut short the course of these diseases and hasten the recovery, and that surgical procedure can only be taken in well-equipped hospitals.
The nursing situation is, I think, particularly bad in some of the smaller hospitals. It is true that nurses who have retired, nurses who have married, who have given up their regular work, for the sake of the service have gone into hospitals ^nd done excellent work, and I would pay tribute to those nurses who have volunteered in this time of great need. It may be true that some nursing sisters are holding back to work in private practice and possibly making good fees, but as a general rule the nurses have tried to do their best. There again, however, complaint is frequently made that hospitals cannot compete with military organizations in holding these nurses. I know the minister and the deputy minister have given this matter a, good deal of attention, and I assure them it is an important problem and a great difficulty which is facing those who are managing hospitals and trying to carry on the work at the present time.


Mr. STIRLING:: I invite the minister to bring the committee up to date with a report on the Doukhobors. A year ago we had the benefit of the report which the mounted police had made, which was brought down, I think, in the month of March, and attention was drawn to the state of affairs revealed therein, which was, I believe, that some thirteen hundred of them had not submitted for registration. Since that time, of course, others have reached the age of sixteen years and should have registered. I do not propose to make a statement this evening on the subject of the Doukhobors. I did so last year and the previous year, and I recollect that the minister in his reply, which was but short, suggested that if the matter were left in his hands for another six months he might be able to report on what progress he had been able to make.
I should like the minister to describe the position first with regard to Saskatchewan, how the registration has gone there, to what extent have the provisions of the National Resources Mobilization Act been carried out, and, in that those Doukhobors of the proper age for military service would not be subjected to military service but would have to be used in alternate employment, to what extent he has been able to have these men do alternative service, whether it has been necessary to institute prosecutions, and to what extent those prosecutions have been carried out.
I should like the minister to deal with the matter in that way if he would be good enough to do so, because from there on the story can be taken up in British Columbia. Unfortunately it is evident that these Doukhobors have been travelling from Saskatchewan and adding to the difficulties in British

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Columbia. As the minister is well aware, there have been infractions of the law in British Columbia of recent times, and action has been taken to stop indecent parades and the like. To my mind, the real grievance that the people whom I represent have is that the law apparently is not being "administered equally for the Canadian citizens and for the Douk-hobors, and I shall be very much obliged if the minister will report on the situation and bring us up to date with information.


Humphrey Mitchell: My hon. friend mentioned Saskatchewan first. The situation there has been cleared up and the Doukhobors are complying with the law. In certain parts of Alberta the situation is not as good as it is in Saskatchewan and, as my hon. friend knows, in British Columbia the situation is difficult and always has been.


Grote Stirling: What does the minister mean when he says that the law is being adhered to in Saskatchewan? Take those who are of such an age that they would have to go into military service but for their peculiar views. Have they gone into alternate camps?


Humphrey Mitchell: Not necessarily camps but into alternate service. We have a diversification of alternate service. If a man is better fitted for agriculture that is where he goes.


Grote Stirling: And they receive $25 and the rest goes to the Red Cross.


Humphrey Mitchell: Yes, absolutely. In
British Columbia, I am frank to admit, the situation is difficult; I would not be honest if I did not make that admission. It has been difficult for all governments since the Doukhobors came to Canada. Conferences are taking place between ourselves and the government of British Columbia in connection with the better observance of law and order among the Doukhobors in that province. The other evening I was talking to a large industrialist on the way from Montreal, and he indicated to me that the Doukhobors in this particular part of British Columbia were doing really good work at Brilliant, if I remember rightly.


Gordon Graydon: What kind of work?


Humphrey Mitchell: They are labourers.


Gordon Graydon: The pictures indicate that they are doing a strange kind of job.


Humphrey Mitchell: That might be true, too. It is very difficult. My hon. friend can rest assured that as far as humanly possible we are measuring up to the situation the best we know how, and I cannot go further.


Grote Stirling: Are prosecutions being carried) out?


Humphrey Mitchell: Yes. Recently we have carried out prosecutions in British Columbia.


Grote Stirling: What has been the result
of those?


Humphrey Mitchell: What my hon. friend referred to; that is what happened. That is the result of the prosecutions.


Grote Stirling: Is that their sole
punishment?


Humphrey Mitchell: There have been some nude parades since the prosecutions.


Grote Stirling: Does the minister consider he has a sufficient police force to handle the situation?


Arthur Wentworth Roebuck: That is not his department.


Humphrey Mitchell: Primarily the duty of enforcement is on the local authorities and then on the provincial authorities. We have not been requested to go and enforce the law. It is primarily the duty of the local authorities, then the provincial authorities, and if that cannot be done the federal authorities step in.


Grote Stirling: I do not want to question the minister's word with regard to that, but I gravely doubt whether that is the correct answer. I should like the Minister of Justice to tell us what the situation is. My information is that on a recent occasion the attorney general of British Columbia had the advantage of discussing the matter with him; I understand that the police force which should be called on for this matter is the mounted police, and the mounted police should have the assistance of the provincial police if it be necessary.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: There is no duty on the mounted police, as suggested by the hon. member for Yale. The administration of the province of British Columbia in that regard is under the jurisdiction of the attorney general. There was an occasion some Weeks ago when difficulties were anticipated, and there were communications between the attorney general's officers and the commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. It was arranged that a detachment would be ready to move into a certain locality if they were requested to do so, but fortunately that did not become necessary.
There have been prosecutions, from what I learn from the newspapers. There have been prosecutions for indecent exposure and several persons have been convicted. We had within the last few days a communication from the warden of the penitentiary, accompanied by

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clippings announcing that there had been condemnations to the penitentiary of six women and some thirteen men, I think, and I am not in a position to state at this moment what has occurred since. Arrangements were made to transfer these women who had been condemned to the penitentiary to the only penitentiary for women that is maintained in Canada, and I am unable to say whether they are now on their way from British Columbia to that penitentiary or not. It was anticipated that there would have to be wardens and matrons to accompany them, and authority was given to the penitentiaries branch to make proper arrangements with a railway company to have a special car in which these prisoners, and those who would have to accompany them, would be sequestrated and might not mingle with others travelling on the same train. There had been some suggestion that they might be brought by air from British Columbia to the penitentiary for women, but after investigation it was found that this would not be practicable and the other method is the one that was authorized. But I am not at present able to say whether they have arrived or are on their way. There have been suggestions that very rigorous methods of enforcing the regulations against the whole of the Doukhobor population should be adopted. There are a great many cases, something over 18,000 reported cases throughout Canada, of failure to comply with the regulations.


Gordon Graydon: 18,000?
Mr. ST. LAURENT:	Something over
18,000.


Grote Stirling: With regard to registration?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: Failures of every kind to comply with the regulations under the mobilization act. There are some failures to register, failures to comply with orders to report for medical examination, failures to report to camp after medical examination has been had, and so forth. The prosecutions are usually handled by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. The usual procedure is for the registrars in the district when they have a file showing non-compliance with any one of the regulations to turn it over to the R.C.M.P. for investigation and prosecution if the investigation warrants prosecution.


Grote Stirling: That is exactly what I
suggested, and I understood the minister to say that it was not the R.C.M.P. that carried out the prosecution.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: The Royal Canadian Mounted Police do make investigations. When the registrars turn the files over to the 100-1561
R.C.M.P. they do deal with them, but in respect of the Doukhobor the complaint, as I understand it, is that the first step has not been taken. The registrars have no files concerning them. What would have to be done would be to go through the province and check on the possession or non-possession of a registration card by each individual.


Gordon Graydon: The fact is they have none. Very few of them have registered. I suppose that is the case.	,
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I think a large majority of them have not registered at any time. The suggestion has been made that a sufficient force should be raised to make the investigations and to compel them to register. The commissioner of the R.C.M.P. was of the opinion that there were not large numbers who' were not engaged in useful work and who would, in fact, be transferred to work other than that which they are performing at the present time, and that the number of men who would be required first of all to make the investigation and then to make the show of force that would have to be made to compel compliance would be out of proportion to the benefit that could be expected from any attempt to speed up what is being done.


Grote Stirling: If the minister would permit me, the difficulty that remains is that the Canadian boy is proceeded against if he does not register, does not carry out the necessities of the act, and the minister calmly says now that no good would result from dealing with the Doukhobor, and yet they live side by side in those communities with Canadians. I think it is absolutely unfair to the Canadian boy.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: The unfairness is not, I think, as apparent as the hon. member would suggest. I do not think there is any unfairness to anyone in having to comply with the regulations. In respect of those Doukhobors who are entitled to the benefit of the exceptional treatment provided by the orders in council under which they came to this country, may I say this? Under the terms of those orders in council they are not required to perform military services. Now quite wrongly they feel that any compliance with the mobilization act or with the statute requiring national registration would be a first step toward military service, and many of them refuse to take that step. The most that could be expected from them would be to get them into alternative service. The alternative service would probably have to be performed under conditions where their earnings would be more than the portion that they would be entitled to keep. That is the only benefit the-
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War Appropriation-Labour
public would receive from the mobilization of the men required to enforce the regulation against them beyond the other feature of having everyone realize that he has to comply with the Canadian laws. That, I appreciate, is very important; but it was felt at this time that the R.C.M.P. could not afford the number of men that would be required to give special preference to the Doukhobor problem.
For several months the R.C.M.P. have had a large backlog of those files that have been coming forward in the normal way in the various registration divisions of the country. These are so numerous that they are not diminishing the outstanding number very rapidly. Some progress is being made in disposing of more cases than are coming forward from month to month, but there is still a substantial backlog. The R.C.M.P. have to deal with those because the files are turned over to them by the mobilization officers. The other feature would require quite a large corps to seek out those who have not even registered; and it has not been found possible to make that number of R.C.M.P. personnel available. When I said to the hon. member that it was not the responsibility of the R.C.M.P. to handle the Doukhobor problem, I was referring to the suppression of those disorders that have arisen in the district.


Grote Stirling: Oh, yes; that is another 4hing.


Mr.   S@: That is being handled *by the provincial authorities, and there is this understanding: The R.C.M.P. are prepared to supply personnel from the localities where they *can be spared, if and when required to do so by the attorney general of British Columbia.


Grote Stirling: The minister agrees, therefore, that in infractions of the regulations with regard to registration it is the R.C.M.P. who take action.
Mr. ST. LAURENT:	It is the R.C.M.P.
who are called upon by the registrars under the mobilization act when they have knowledge of an infraction.


Grote Stirling: Will the minister be good enough to say whether any of those 1,333, who were believed to be unregistered as a result of the report of the R.C.M.P., have since registered? Could he say that registrations are now going on particularly with regard to those who have become sixteen years of age and who are consequently subject to the registration since the time of this report and since the year 1940 when registration was put into force? In other words, could he tell the
(
committee how many of these people in southern British Columbia have snapped their fingers at registration and have not registered?


Humphrey Mitchell: Some of them have registered, but I do not think a great number. I could not give the exact figures of those people who have snapped their fingers at the regulation, as my hon. friend has suggested.


Grote Stirling: No doubt thousands of them have not registered.


Mr. EVANS:: Could the minister give us any information with regard to the bottleneck that has become apparent in packing plants throughout Canada consequent upon the transfer of labour from those plants to the farms? Live stock have become marketable; the yards are full and the packing plants cannot get the help to take care of them. It has been suggested that some of these men should be transferred back to the packing plants. Experienced men went back to the farms on April 1, and the bottleneck has been the consequence. Could the minister give us any information on that?


Humphrey Mitchell: My hon. friend is speaking of the packing situation generally across the country? Twice as many people are engaged in the packing industry to-day as there were in 1939. In the last season we put 4,(XX) additional people into the packing industry. I should like to say this about the packing industry: it is hard work, and requires men with strong backs and strong arms. I think we generally recognize that feature of it. What we did was we made possible the transfer of men from agriculture to the packing plants and so on. Many of these men were owners of farms, and when spring came along and it was time to seed, they went back to their farms. It has been said that some of them went back because they felt the special consideration given to agricultural workers under the mobilization regulations would be withdrawn if they stayed in the packing industry. We indicated clearly, and in fact instructions were sent to our officials in the field, that these men could stay in the packing industry and enjoy the same rights, if you call them rights, that were granted to agricultural workers generally. We appreciate that there is a shortage of labour in the packing industry at this time, but constant attention is being given the problem and it is no worse now than it was three months ago. It is this rush of cattle and hogs to the packing plants that has brought about the difficulty. I should like it clearly understood, however, that to-day we have twice as many people working in the

War Appropriation-Labour
packing industry as we had in 1939, and that selective service has made possible the continuation of that industry on a much larger scale than was the case in the days of peace.


Mark Cecil Senn: Is it not a fact that instead of a shortage of labour in the packing plants the abattoirs and freezers are so full that they cannot handle the meat which is being processed at the present time?


Humphrey Mitchell: I could not answer that question; I deal with the man-power end of it and do not know much about any other phases of the industry.


Charles Robert Evans: I have had some correspondence from the west in regard to the backing up of hogs on the farms, and it is serious. When a' hog reaches a certain weight it should be marketed. The information I had from Saskatchewan was that last week the stockyards were full of hogs, and that an embargo was imposed at some of the shipping points. It may be that we have twice as many employees in the packing plants as we had in 1939, but we are marketing more than twice as many hogs. The fact that many of these men left the plants on April 1 has put the farmers in the west in a serious position, as far as marketing their hogs is concerned.


Humphrey Mitchell: The situation in Calgary is that they want no more men there at all. In the other plants there is some difficulty at the moment, particularly at Edmonton. We did offer to move a certain number of Japanese into this industry, but I am given to understand that this offer was refused by the industry itself. In the very tight labour situation which exists to-day, sometimes we cannot be too choosy as to the labour we may employ. Everything it is humanly possible to do is being done to face up to the labour situation in the packing plants. At the present time we are passing through a seasonal period when, by the very nature of things, there is a movement of labour from industry back to agriculture, and I can only repeat that everything possible will be done to man the packing plants in western Canada.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Would the minister mind turning to some figures that appear at page 799 of Hansard?


Humphrey Mitchell: Read the figures.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I do not wish to read the figures; I wish to ask the minister whether
he can bring them up to date. The simplest way of explaining the figures desired would be to ask the minister or his officials to refer to page 799 of Hansard for February 24 of this year.


Humphrey Mitchell: I do not think I can do that to-night; it is nearly eleven o'clock. If my hon. friend can give it .to me across the floor now,- or after the house adjourns, I shall be glad to do whatever I can to bring the information up to date.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I am giving the information to the minister now; it will be in Hansard, and he can pick it up from there. The figures have to do with the total number registered at the employment and selective service offices, by provinces, under various categories, as set out at the page I have indicated. The figures given there were up to January 27 of this year, and cover the year previous, as at a number of specified dates. My question, which I take it the minister will answer on Monday, is whether he will bring these figures up to date as much as possible.


Humphrey Mitchell: The hon. member wants the latest figures?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Yes.


James Arthur Ross: I should like to ask the minister a question which has to do with one or two other departments of the government as well. Agriculturists, especially in the swest, are having great difficulty in obtaining farm machinery. We questioned the Minister of Munitions and Supply in regard to the material available and were told that the Steel available now amounted to 291 per cent of the steel available in 1939. Then we had a report from the war expenditures committee to the effect that plenty of factory space is available in Canada. Therefore, it would seem that there must be a shortage of experienced labour. Would the minister tell us if he has had any demand lately for labour from the manufacturers of farm machinery, or what are the prospects of the farm implement factories obtaining sufficient labour to carry on, because the situation is much more serious now than at any time since the outbreak of war, and the prospects are that it will continue to be serious for many .months to come.


Humphrey Mitchell: I think my hon. friend is referring more to what we call the malleable iron industry, the foundries; that is the bottleneck. There has been a considerable movement of unskilled labour to that industry, but
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Bank Act

there is a considerable shortage of moulders, and there is nothing we can do about it. At the present time all the moulders are engaged in what might be called industries necessary for the production of war materials; but we are facing up to the problem and everything that can be done to move moulders into this industry will be done by selective service. It is a question of shortage of skilled labour.
Progress reported.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Monday, May 1, 1944